GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: Que on May 24, 2007, 11:21:14 PM

Title: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on May 24, 2007, 11:21:14 PM
This thread is meant to complement the other threads on Bach's music: organ works, other keyboard works (HIP) and orchestral music.

So, included are:

- sonatas & partitas for violin
- cello suites
- sonatas for violin and harpsichord
- sonatas for viola da gamba and harpsichord
- works for lute
- sonatas & partitas for transvers flute
- adaptations/chamber music versions
(of the Trio Sonatas, Kunst der Fuge, etc.)

Links to relevant topics on the old forum:

Bach Cello suites (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,6520.0.html)
Bach BWV 1027-1029 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,12704.0.html) (about the gamba sonatas)
Bach Sonatas and Partitas Recommendation (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,8305.0.html)
J.S Bach's unaccompanied violin sonata no 3 in C major (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,9748.0.html)


HAVE FUN! :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on May 24, 2007, 11:41:35 PM
The flute sonatas and partita performed by Frans Brüggen (Sony Seon).  Probably not many people remember him as a recorder/traverso player since he has become a great conductor.  But this is THE classic when it comes to HIP versions of this music - not to be missed if you happen to see it in a record shop!  ;D
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on May 24, 2007, 11:54:40 PM
I have Kuijken/ Leonhardt for the accompanied sonatas:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8601559.jpg)

I'm very satisfied with it but, still I like to have another performance.
Any recommendations on the many new recordings of these pieces, which all seem quite promising?? :)
Like: Kubitschek/ Rônez (Winter & Winter), Carmignola/ Marcon (Sony), Malgoire/ Rannou (Zig-Zag), Montanari/ Rousset (Naïve) and Valetti/ Frisch (Alpha).

Thanks, Q


Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on May 24, 2007, 11:59:48 PM
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 24, 2007, 11:41:35 PM
The flute sonatas and partita performed by Frans Brüggen (Sony Seon).  Probably not many people remember him as a recorder/traverso player since he has become a great conductor.  But this is THE classic when it comes to HIP versions of this music - not to be missed if you happen to see it in a record shop!  ;D

My favourite too!  :)
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/61E0B2VVDPL._AA240_.gif)

Any more recent recordings you could recommend?

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on May 25, 2007, 12:13:51 AM
For quite recent recordings, I'd say Ashley Solomon on Channel Classics

(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1333/482999ak8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

He is also director of the great ensemble Florigium.   I will post a picture of volume 1 when I find it in a suitably large size. :)

I haven't gotten hold of this new recording by Jed Wentz on Challenge Classics, but based on my past experience with his strong and dynamic playing (Quantz, Vivaldi, Handel, Blavet, Locatelli, Couperin, etc.), I feel it is very promising.  Not to mention a well-done cover picture: charimatic photo of a charismatic musician. :)

(http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2151/472699gc6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

p.s  Wentz is the director of the outstanding ensemble Musica ad Rhenum.  We have quite a few analogies of Frans Bruggen here.  Question: Is becoming a great musical director the inevitable career path for great traverso players?  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on May 25, 2007, 12:30:37 AM
Quote from: Que on May 24, 2007, 11:54:40 PM
I have Kuijken/ Leonhardt for the accompanied sonatas:

Any recommendations on the many new recordings of these pieces, which all seem quite promising?? :)
Like: Kibutschek/ Rônez (Winter & Winter), Carmignola/ Marcon (Sony), Malgoire/ Rannou (Zig-Zag), Montanari/ Rousset (Naïve) and Valetti/ Frisch (Alpha).

Thanks, Q


Excuse my heretic opinion here: but why not the very hip Reinhard Goebel / Robert Hill? 

I have Carmingnola and am quite happy with it and would consider Biondi/Alessandrini another candidate in the same interpretative camp.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: quintett op.57 on May 25, 2007, 12:35:50 AM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/419HCY9M4PL._AA240_.jpg)My favourite solo string CD.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: val on May 25, 2007, 12:40:19 AM

This are my favorite versions

- sonatas & partitas for violin / Nathan Milstein
- cello suites / Pablo Casals or Anner Bjlsma
- sonatas for violin and harpsichord / Reinhard Goebel, Robert Hill
- sonatas for viola da gamba and harpsichord  / Wieland Kuijken, Leonhardt
- works for lute  / Konrad Junghänel
- sonatas & partitas for transvers flute  / Frans Bruggen
- Kunst der Fuge / Musica Antiqua Köln, Goebel



Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on May 25, 2007, 04:57:55 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 25, 2007, 12:30:37 AM
Excuse my heretic opinion here: but why not the very hip Reinhard Goebel / Robert Hill? 

I have Carmingnola and am quite happy with it and would consider Biondi/Alessandrini another candidate in the same interpretative camp.

I'm not excluding Goebel/ Hill, although I passed it up earlier, I really should refresh my impression on that one. The Biondi/Alessandrini I've heard and was fasinating, as anything Biondi does, but not to my taste (in Bach).

Quote from: fl.traverso on May 25, 2007, 12:13:51 AM
Question: Is becoming a great musical director the inevitable career path for great traverso players?  :D :D :D

You're forgetting one important condition - which is fulfilled in this case btw - you have to be Dutch! ;D  ;)

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bunny on May 25, 2007, 05:45:34 AM
I have the Valetti/Frisch violin sonatas, which is very fine.  I also have Marc Hantaï's flute sonatas as well, but am not particularly satisfied with them.  I have James Ehnes Bach Sonatas on I believe, a modern violin with harpsichord accompanimient by Luc Beauséjour which is very well done.  I also have Pandolfo's sonatas for viol da gamba which I do recommend.

I have the Naxos reissue of Jaap Schroeders Sonatas and Partitas, and have Lucy van Dael's on order.

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/61/546561.jpg)  (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DZ3E8K7SL._AA240_.jpg)  (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/31/455831.jpg)

Now I'll start looking for the Brüggen which hopefully will not be too expensive.  Otherwise the Channel Classics recording, the Jed Wentz and the Winter and Winter sound very enticing. 
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bunny on May 25, 2007, 05:59:19 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 25, 2007, 12:30:37 AM
Excuse my heretic opinion here: but why not the very hip Reinhard Goebel / Robert Hill? 

I have Carmingnola and am quite happy with it and would consider Biondi/Alessandrini another candidate in the same interpretative camp.

I have those too!  Those are part of the Reinhard Goebel Box Set with the Brandenburg Concerti.  They do suffer a bit from DG's close miking, though.

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MBRRARRHL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on May 25, 2007, 08:23:40 AM
Quote from: Bunny on May 25, 2007, 05:59:19 AM
I have those too!  Those are part of the Reinhard Goebel Box Set with the Brandenburg Concerti.  They do suffer a bit from DG's close miking, though.

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MBRRARRHL._SS500_.jpg)

Oh yes I just remember that I have the W&W Ronez recording as well.  I guess I have been too imprinted on the Goebel (now that is some tangy Bach! ;D) to remember anything special about this set other than the typical W&W well-done, realistic sound.  No negative impression either about the interpretation as far as I can recall.  It's perfect for the purpose of enlarging one's Bach collection then!  Its beautiful, environment-friendly packaging doesn't hurt either ;D
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Don on May 25, 2007, 08:36:19 AM
Quote from: Que on May 24, 2007, 11:54:40 PM
I have Kuijken/ Leonhardt for the accompanied sonatas:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8601559.jpg)

I'm very satisfied with it but, still I like to have another performance.
Any recommendations on the many new recordings of these pieces, which all seem quite promising?? :)
Like: Kubitschek/ Rônez (Winter & Winter), Carmignola/ Marcon (Sony), Malgoire/ Rannou (Zig-Zag), Montanari/ Rousset (Naïve) and Valetti/ Frisch (Alpha).

Thanks, Q




My favorite for a few years now comes from Elizabeth Blumenstuck and John Butt on Harmonia Mundi.  Blumenstuck is amazing in highlighting both the beauty of the music on baroque violin and the array of expression in the scores.
I don't think any other versions come close; that includes Kuijken, Carmignola and all the rest.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on May 25, 2007, 08:43:39 AM
Quote from: Que on May 25, 2007, 04:57:55 AM
I'm not excluding Goebel/ Hill, although I passed it up earlier, I really should refresh my impression on that one. The Biondi/Alessandrini I've heard and was fasinating, as anything Biondi does, but not to my taste (in Bach).


Yes I see what you mean - sometimes Biondi's playing can strike one as being TOO sweet, almost nauseously so  :P  You see I prefer tangy Bach myself, and so I fully respect your taste!  

Quote
You're forgetting one important condition - which is fulfilled in this case btw - you have to be Dutch! ;D  ;)

Q

Yes but then you are discounting Ashley Solomon the Brit - you must have not heard any recording by Florilegium then.  Their continuo section is always, and refreshingly, colorful.    

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on May 25, 2007, 08:46:36 AM
Quote from: Don on May 25, 2007, 08:36:19 AM
My favorite for a few years now comes from Elizabeth Blumenstuck and John Butt on Harmonia Mundi.  Blumenstuck is amazing in highlighting both the beauty of the music on baroque violin and the array of expression in the scores.

If I am getting it, I would prefer the original 2-cd release.   Alternatively the recording is available in 2 budget-priced, "classical express" single discs.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bunny on May 25, 2007, 08:48:24 AM
I found this available at Towerrecords for $5.52 -- Bach J.S: Sonatas & Partitas For Flute / Bruggen/Leonhardt.  At that price it's an automatic buy item for me. ;D

(http://art.towerrecords.com/coverart.asp?S=4267125&X=178&Y=178)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Don on May 25, 2007, 08:53:07 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 25, 2007, 08:46:36 AM
If I am getting it, I would prefer the original 2-cd release.   Alternatively the recording is available in 2 budget-priced, "classical express" single discs.

Although the "original" is oop, there is a 2-cd set having what was on the original along with BWV 1021 and 1023.  The catalog number is 2907364 (Harmonia Mundi)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on May 25, 2007, 08:55:04 AM
Quote from: Bunny on May 25, 2007, 08:48:24 AM
I found this available at Towerrecords for $5.52 -- Bach J.S: Sonatas & Partitas For Flute / Bruggen/Leonhardt.  At that price it's an automatic buy item for me. ;D


Beware that you may not be getting the whole thing (but the most important part anyway).  
The original Seon version is on two rather loosely filled discs.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on May 25, 2007, 09:00:14 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 25, 2007, 08:43:39 AM
Yes but then you are discounting Ashley Solomon the Brit - you must have not heard any recording by Florilegium then.  Their continuo section is always, and refreshingly, colorful.

Not discounting, simply overlooking the fact that you were refering to Solomon too. But the fact that I'm not familiar with the Ensemble Florilegium undoubtedly was a factor in this oversight.

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on May 25, 2007, 09:01:19 AM
Quote from: Don on May 25, 2007, 08:53:07 AM
Although the "original" is oop, there is a 2-cd set having what was on the original along with BWV 1021 and 1023.  The catalog number is 2907364 (Harmonia Mundi)

This?  The new "one-plus-one" version has a rather charming cover picture, too, if stylistically about 80-100 years too late for the music.  :)

(http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/7942/597894pu1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on May 25, 2007, 09:09:03 AM
Quote from: Que on May 25, 2007, 09:00:14 AM
Not discounting, simply overlooking the fact that you were refering to Solomon too. But the fact that I'm not familiar with the Ensemble Florilegium undoubtedly was a factor in this oversight.

Q

They have been too busy with Haydn, Telemann (and Bolivian baroque music) to give us more Bach, or you might have noticed their presence more readily.  I heard their recording of the Musical Offering is very worth knowing though - on the level of Trio Sonnerie's account (Virgin Verita).
http://www.florilegium.org.uk/
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Don on May 25, 2007, 09:09:05 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 25, 2007, 09:01:19 AM
This?  The new "one-plus-one" version has a rather charming cover picture, too, if stylistically about 80-100 years too late for the music.  :)

(http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/7942/597894pu1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Yup, that's the one.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on May 25, 2007, 09:23:02 AM
Quote from: Don on May 25, 2007, 09:09:05 AM
Yup, that's the one.

Thanks Don - this may have been the most affordable version of the set ever. 
BTW one of its previous incarnations looks like this, which contains part of the
original cover art.

(http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/6214/413bwvk2n1lss500cl9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: 71 dB on May 25, 2007, 10:23:15 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 25, 2007, 09:57:52 AM
Yes very true, even though there are those who insist that the older versions not only sound different from the new ones in "the collector's edition" but better, too.  In this regard, music
cd's are a bit like books - older editions may command a higher price in the used market, depending on how common they are.  I have the Goebel Bach in the "Galleria" edition, which
was released even earlier than your 5-disc "Kammermusik" set.  The differences between
them, if any, may be of interest to audiophiles only.  :)


There are differencies in sound?  ???

How an Earth do they bother tinker with the sound between releases?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bunny on May 25, 2007, 11:19:00 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 25, 2007, 10:40:04 AM
So say the collecting audiophiles. A popular line of argument from them is, differences in sound quality don't just happen in between masterings but in between pressings also.  Unless one knows the cd manufacturing business intimately, it would be difficult to convince audiophiles otherwise. 


That was true of the analog process used for vinyl LPs, because the plate that was used to press the records eventually would show signs of wear, but cds are not "pressed" but are burned directly by a laser from digital information that doesn't change from the 1st burn to the last burn.  If digital tape was used for the first master, that can deteriorate, but anyone can make an exact copy of any cd, so clearly there's not going to be change unless there has been remastering done.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: 71 dB on May 25, 2007, 11:45:58 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 25, 2007, 11:31:38 AM
Er...I think cd's that we buy are indeed pressed.  Only the master presses are cut by laser. 

Yes, real CDs are pressed even if CD-R discs are burned with a laser.

Quote from: fl.traverso on May 25, 2007, 11:28:56 AM
Well, try telling this to them.  I do think that wave files
generated by different cd drives/ripping programs do
not sound identical, even though in theory they should.

I don't even try to. They can believe whatever they want.

Most people do not understand the fundamental differences between digital and analog information. Things that concern analog sound do not necessorily concern digital sound at all and vice versa. 
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: 71 dB on May 25, 2007, 12:16:43 PM
I am not satisfied with Goebels Adagio in BWV 1018.
The harpsichord is soooo weak.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on May 25, 2007, 12:20:34 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 25, 2007, 12:16:43 PM
I am not satisfied with Goebels Adagio in BWV 1018.
The harpsichord is soooo weak.

Weak how?  Pray tell.  ;)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: 71 dB on May 25, 2007, 12:32:07 PM
Quote from: fl.traverso on May 25, 2007, 12:19:23 PM
Mea culpa.  In conclusion, dB 71, please don't feel depressed if only because you don't own the newest and cheapest version of the Goebel/Hill recording.  

It's not a problem.  ;)

Quote from: fl.traverso on May 25, 2007, 12:20:34 PM
Weak how?  Pray tell.  ;)

Violin is loud. Harpsichord is quiet. In this Adagio especially the instruments should be equal.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on May 25, 2007, 12:44:18 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on May 25, 2007, 12:32:07 PM
Violin is loud. Harpsichord is quiet. In this Adagio especially the instruments should be equal.

I think you've got a point here even though it is fairly common for Tonmeisters to balance the violin a bit more forward in this repertory (eg. the W&W Ronez version mentioned above).  I don't have the Goebel recording with me so I can't tell exactly, but it could be the harpsichordist's decision also to downplay the right-hand melody in a two- or three-part texture (playing on a different manual, using the lute stop, etc.).
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Expresso on May 26, 2007, 03:52:51 AM

These are the "Sonatas & partitas for violin" i prefer:

(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/8074/418v8hx2tslss500dd0.th.jpg)

Goran Sollsher is rarely mentioned, but i like his suites for lute:

(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/9926/8841cj3dp4dalss500sw9.th.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on June 01, 2007, 02:58:18 AM
Que, my recommandations, written for another forum half a year ago:


Sonatas and Suites for solo violin:

HIP:
Rachel Podger (Channel Classics)
She really makes music of these almost unplayable works

non-HIP:
Nathan Milstein (DG)

Julia Fischer (Penta Tone Classics)
She is very young, and her interpretation is not always "mature". But she has got a rare command of the violin (resulting in "shivering down the spine"). She plays the four part fugues and the virtuosic last movements of the Sonatas apparently completely effortless, actually reminding me of the super human virtuosity of the young recorder player Michala Petri and with much the same tendency to mechanical rhythm. She is less successful in the more reflective pieces, most notably the Preludes and slow third movements of the sonatas.

And not to forget

Nigel North´s brilliant arrangements for luth (Linn Classics)
And
Gustav Leonhardts arrangements for harpsichord (German Harmonia Mundi)


Suites for solo violoncello.

HIP:
Wieland Kuijken (Arcana) Meditative, introvert, often a bit sombre.

non-HIP:
Morten Zeuthen (Classico) My preferred version – not because he is Danish and even a distant relative (I don´t know him personally), but because his playing is agile and very dancing, pure joy.

Ralph Kirchbaum (Virgin) Pure beauty, both the instrument and his way of handling it.

Pierre Fournier (DG) His noble interpretation does much more for me, than the (dare I say it?) fuzzy Casals or the creamy Rostropowitsch.


Sonates for traverse flute and cembalo / continuo:

HIP:
Frantz Brüggen / Gustav Leonhardt (Sony)
Only the authentic sonatas.

non-HIP:
Eckhardt Haupt / Christina Schornsheim (Berlin Classics)
Even the non-authentic sonatas.


Sonatas for violin and cembalo / continuo:

HIP:
John Holloway / Davitt Moroney (Virgin)

Elisabeth Blumenstock / John Butt (French Harmonia Mundi)

Both beautiful and expressive interpretations.


Sonatas for viola da gamba and cembalo:

HIP:
Vittorio Ghielmi / Lorenzo Ghielmi (Ars Musici)
Lorenzo Ghielmi plays on a period fortepiano, rather interesting combination.

Ekkehard Weber / Robert Hill (Ars Musici)
Robert Hill plays on a lute-harpsichord, an interesting combination too.

John Dornenburg / Malcolm Proud (Brilliant Classics – part of the Bach set)


Musicalisches Opfer:

HIP:
Jordi Savall with the Hantaï brothers (Astreé)

Gustav Leonhardt with the Kuijken brothers (Sony)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on June 01, 2007, 04:04:40 AM
Quote from: premont on June 01, 2007, 02:58:18 AM
Suites for solo violoncello.

HIP:
Wieland Kuijken (Arcana) Meditative, introvert, often a bit sombre.



I unexpectedly ran into this one and it is indeed a very special interpretation. 
In the scordatura fifth suite (on a third disc shared with the gamba sonatas)
the music really GROWLs, thanks in no small part to Kuijken's skillful use
of his (probably inauthentic) Amati.  Sound is impressive throughout.

(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5336/a421ny9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Available from sources in Europe.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on June 02, 2007, 01:08:56 AM
Quote from: premont on June 01, 2007, 02:58:18 AM
Que, my recommandations, written for another forum half a year ago:

Premont, much appreciated, as always! :)

Some items that caught my interest.

QuoteSonatas and Suites for solo violin:

Nigel North´s brilliant arrangements for luth (Linn Classics)
And
Gustav Leonhardts arrangements for harpsichord (German Harmonia Mundi)


Suites for solo violoncello.

HIP:
Wieland Kuijken (Arcana) Meditative, introvert, often a bit sombre.

Sonatas for viola da gamba and cembalo:

Ekkehard Weber / Robert Hill (Ars Musici)
Robert Hill plays on a lute-harpsichord, an interesting combination too.

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on June 22, 2007, 01:16:16 AM
I'm looking for a chamber music version of "Die Kunst der Fuge", preferably HIP.
Any suggestions?


Thanks! :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: sunnyside_up on June 22, 2007, 01:46:18 AM
Que, I really love this one....the different instruments used really bring out the different strands of polyphony.....
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RY9Z4RNYL._SS500_.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on June 22, 2007, 05:03:46 AM
Quote from: Que on June 22, 2007, 01:16:16 AM
I'm looking for a chamber music version of "Die Kunst der Fuge", preferably HIP.
Any suggestions?


Thanks! :)

Q

Since The Art of Fugue is a keyboardwork, I  haven´t investigated the chamber versions in depth, but still I know some of them.

Leaving the non-HIP versions from the 1950es and 1960es aside (some of which are very good though e.g. Münchinger, Ristenpart I and II, Redel I, Munclinger, Scherchen III) I know the following HIP chamber versions:

Collegium Aureum with Fritz Neumeyer (DHM ca. 1968) is rather conventional as to conception even if played one player per part on period instruments. 

Loeki Stardust (recorder) Quartet (Channel Classics) omits a few of the Contrapuncti. I have so far listened to it twice finding it a little dull and not a par with these artists usual spirited performances.

CI / Rinaldo Alessandrini (Opus 111) String ensemble, a few woodwinds and harpsichord. Instrumentation seems a little casual but execution crisp and transparent and certainly  pedagogic. Much to enjoy here. Available as a twoofer (midprice) with a collection of Bach Harpsichord concertos.

Haven´t heard Savall. It is on my wish list, but I find it rather expensive. His Musical Offering on the other hand is exellent, so odds for his AoF are favourable

Ensemble Fretwork (gambenquartet) (Harmonia Mundi Fr.). Haven´t heard all of it, but what I heard, was stiff and dull.

The recording released by Ottavo with the Viotta Ensemble and Jan Willem de Vriend uses modern instruments (soloists all over) and the instrumentation is strange, similar to Weberns orchestration of the 6 part Ricercare from The Musical Offering, every theme being distributed between different instruments. Irritating even if the playing and the recording is crystal clear and the result as such rather beautiful. Suited for adventurous listeners.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bunny on June 22, 2007, 07:12:27 AM
Quote from: premont on June 22, 2007, 05:03:46 AM
Since The Art of Fugue is a keyboardwork, I  haven´t investigated the chamber versions in depth, but still I know some of them.

Leaving the non-HIP versions from the 1950es and 1960es aside (some of which are very good though e.g. Münchinger, Ristenpart I and II, Redel I, Munclinger, Scherchen III) I know the following HIP chamber versions:

Collegium Aureum with Fritz Neumeyer (DHM ca. 1968) is rather conventional as to conception even if played one player per part on period instruments. 

Loeki Stardust (recorder) Quartet (Channel Classics) omits a few of the Contrapuncti. I have so far listened to it twice finding it a little dull and not a par with these artists usual spirited performances.

CI / Rinaldo Alessandrini (Opus 111) String ensemble, a few woodwinds and harpsichord. Instrumentation seems a little casual but execution crisp and transparent and certainly  pedagogic. Much to enjoy here. Available as a twoofer (midprice) with a collection of Bach Harpsichord concertos.

Haven´t heard Savall. It is on my wish list, but I find it rather expensive. His Musical Offering on the other hand is exellent, so odds for his AoF are favourable

Ensemble Fretwork (gambenquartet) (Harmonia Mundi Fr.). Haven´t heard all of it, but what I heard, was stiff and dull.

The recording released by Ottavo with the Viotta Ensemble and Jan Willem de Vriend uses modern instruments (soloists all over) and the instrumentation is strange, similar to Schönbergs orchestration of the 6 part Ricercare from The Musical Offering, every theme being distributed between different instruments. Irritating even if the playing and the recording is crystal clear and the result as such rather beautiful. Suited for adventurous listeners.

I have this, and agree completely with premont's evaluation.  I actually bought this for the harpsichord concertos, but the AOF is actually better.

If you don't mind the sound of modern violins, the Emerson Quartet has a very well done string quartet version of the AOF that is also quite good.  It's also widely available at good prices.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Expresso on June 22, 2007, 11:04:48 AM

That's a very good recording of the Art of Fugue... some of the movements are played by a string quartet and some others by two harpsichordists (Staier-Hill).
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on June 22, 2007, 02:03:52 PM
Quote from: Erevos on June 22, 2007, 11:04:48 AM
That's a very good recording of the Art of Fugue... some of the movements are played by a string quartet and some others by two harpsichordists (Staier-Hill).

I didn´t mention this recording above, because I consider it to be a near-harpsichord version.
About half of it is played in a reliable way on one or two harpsichords by Robert Hill and Andreas Staier. But I think Hill´s own recording for Haenssler is far superior to and much more integrated than this MAK version. Even the Contrapuncti played by string quartet in the MAK version are rushed and make in my ears an uneasy nervous impression. And the quartet´s all dominating dynamic shadings are IMO out of style, and make me think of something like Schuberts string quartets. So I can´t recommend this recording.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: rubio on June 23, 2007, 04:29:31 AM
I consider buying the Bach Cello Suites by Fournier. How does it compare to other hailed performances like Casals, Starker (the one I have already) or Rostropovich?

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4497112.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on June 23, 2007, 04:45:41 AM
Quote from: rubio on June 23, 2007, 04:29:31 AM
I consider buying the Bach Cello Suites by Fournier. How does it compare to other hailed performances like Casals, Starker (the one I have already) or Rostropovich?

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4497112.jpg)

I can't be of very much help, since I don't know Fournier or Starker.
But I do know Casals - absolutely marvelous - but I think he is not easily compared with anyone else - a case of "hors concours" so to speak. The historical nature of the recording just enhances that status.
I also know Rostropovich, and strongly advise against it. Besides the fact he was long past his prime when he recorded it, he has no feeling for Bach whatsoever - just horrible... (IMO)

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bunny on June 23, 2007, 05:44:44 AM
Quote from: rubio on June 23, 2007, 04:29:31 AM
I consider buying the Bach Cello Suites by Fournier. How does it compare to other hailed performances like Casals, Starker (the one I have already) or Rostropovich?

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4497112.jpg)

Both Starker and Fournier fall into the more romantic tradition of cello performance.  The Fournier recording is characterized by warm, silken and mellow cello tone, and a more romantic style interpretation.  I don't think Fournier could do anything that wasn't completely elegant.  There is a quality of "rightness" about his work, the suites are as natural as breathing.  The sound quality is not bad either, but there is some inevitable tape hiss.  In comparison, Starker is more austere -- less emotional in tone.  Starker recorded the suites numerous times, I know of three recordings: first for Mercury, then for a small Canadian label (Sefel) and finally for RCA.  The best set is on Sefel, he was still strong and the sound quality is tops (I believe DG actually did the recording and engineering for Sefel).  I'm not sure what is going on with the Mercury recordings, but there is something about the sound signature that I find very annoying.  Despite loving Starker's work, I have a difficulty listening to those recordings.  You won't find the 2 Sefel cds of the suites anywhere so don't bother looking.  It was a very limited production and the master tapes fell into the hands of someone who won't license them out at all.  By the time Starker recorded the suites for RCA, he wasn't as physically able as in the earlier recordings.  While the first 3 suites are alright, the last 3 aren't done with the same technical mastery.  However, Starker's work is extremely mature and moving.  Fournier was still playing at a very high technical level when he recorded these suites, so in that sense they compare very favorably with the RCA Starker. 

Both artists created unique and beautiful recordings of the suites and if you enjoy a more romantic style of cello playing, you won't go wrong picking up the Fournier. 

I'm not as familiar with Casal's work on the suites; I only have the one Pearl recording and I haven't listened to it in quite a while.  However, as I recall, his style was also in the romantic performance tradition, so the Fournier should compliment that set very well.  I don't have the Rostropovich, so I can't comment on that at all.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: rubio on June 23, 2007, 01:33:07 PM
Quote from: Bunny on June 23, 2007, 05:44:44 AM


Both Starker and Fournier fall into the more romantic tradition of cello performance.  The Fournier recording is characterized by warm, silken and mellow cello tone, and a more romantic style interpretation.  I don't think Fournier could do anything that wasn't completely elegant.  There is a quality of "rightness" about his work, the suites are as natural as breathing.  The sound quality is not bad either, but there is some inevitable tape hiss.  In comparison, Starker is more austere -- less emotional in tone.  Starker recorded the suites numerous times, I know of three recordings: first for Mercury, then for a small Canadian label (Sefel) and finally for RCA.  The best set is on Sefel, he was still strong and the sound quality is tops (I believe DG actually did the recording and engineering for Sefel).  I'm not sure what is going on with the Mercury recordings, but there is something about the sound signature that I find very annoying.  Despite loving Starker's work, I have a difficulty listening to those recordings.  You won't find the 2 Sefel cds of the suites anywhere so don't bother looking.  It was a very limited production and the master tapes fell into the hands of someone who won't license them out at all.  By the time Starker recorded the suites for RCA, he wasn't as physically able as in the earlier recordings.  While the first 3 suites are alright, the last 3 aren't done with the same technical mastery.  However, Starker's work is extremely mature and moving.  Fournier was still playing at a very high technical level when he recorded these suites, so in that sense they compare very favorably with the RCA Starker. 

Both artists created unique and beautiful recordings of the suites and if you enjoy a more romantic style of cello playing, you won't go wrong picking up the Fournier. 

I'm not as familiar with Casal's work on the suites; I only have the one Pearl recording and I haven't listened to it in quite a while.  However, as I recall, his style was also in the romantic performance tradition, so the Fournier should compliment that set very well.  I don't have the Rostropovich, so I can't comment on that at all.

Thank you for this long response Bunny. It was helpful, and for sure I will buy the Fournier set. It is the Mercury Starker set I have.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bunny on June 23, 2007, 07:42:55 PM
Quote from: rubio on June 23, 2007, 01:33:07 PM
Thank you for this long response Bunny. It was helpful, and for sure I will buy the Fournier set. It is the Mercury Starker set I have.

You are very welcome. :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on June 24, 2007, 04:28:27 AM
Quote from: Bunny on June 23, 2007, 05:44:44 AM
Starker recorded the suites numerous times, I know of three recordings: first for Mercury, then for a small Canadian label (Sefel) and finally for RCA.  The best set is on Sefel, he was still strong and the sound quality is tops (I believe DG actually did the recording and engineering for Sefel). 
Both artists created unique and beautiful recordings of the suites and if you enjoy a more romantic style of cello playing, you won't go wrong picking up the Fournier. 

He seems to have recorded these suites very many times.

If I recall correctly, he recorded a few of the suites for Saga ca. 1957.
And later for EMI in the later 1950es (mono).
The Mercury recording was made !963-65.
Next the unavailable Sefel recording (date?).
And last the RCA recording (date?).

I own the EMI and the Mercury releases. Generally I find his austere, introvert style most rewarding. The Saga and the Sefel releases are in reality unavailabe.
My question is : Is the RCA release mandatory.

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Grazioso on June 24, 2007, 04:46:30 AM
Quote from: Que on June 23, 2007, 04:45:41 AM
I also know Rostropovich, and strongly advise against it. Besides the fact he was long past his prime when he recorded it, he has no feeling for Bach whatsoever - just horrible... (IMO)

When I first heard his set, I was turned off by it, but it's since grown on me. No question: it's big-boned, muscular Bach played in a reverberant acoustic. It's Romantic and indulgent--yet it's personal, distinctive, and often beautiful in its way. Bach can survive--indeed, he can benefit from--many interpretative approaches, transcriptions, etc., including one that underplays the sprightly dance-like feel so important to what many consider "proper" Baroque interpretation.

Well worth a listen, as long as you don't expect something like Bylsma :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bunny on June 24, 2007, 08:39:48 PM
Quote from: premont on June 24, 2007, 04:28:27 AM
He seems to have recorded these suites very many times.

If I recall correctly, he recorded a few of the suites for Saga ca. 1957.
And later for EMI in the later 1950es (mono).
The Mercury recording was made !963-65.
Next the unavailable Sefel recording (date?).
And last the RCA recording (date?).

I own the EMI and the Mercury releases. Generally I find his austere, introvert style most rewarding. The Saga and the Sefel releases are in reality unavailabe.
My question is : Is the RCA release mandatory.



I have the second cd of the Sefel recording, so for me the RCA became a must buy because the first 3 suites from that recording most closely compliment the lost Sefel first 3 suites cd. (Yes I had it and it was stolen from my house by someone -- I'll never figure out who took it.  I am grateful that I still have the second cd.)  Starker's work on the RCA last suites is not as strong techically as in his earlier recordings, but the first 3 suites are tremendous.  Moreover, despite his decline in technique (he no longer performs the suites), he more than made up for it with his insight into the music.  He was never one for frills, and as he aged his work became even more ascetic and more powerful.  The last recording on RCA is Bach pared down to the essence.  I'm sorry I don't have all of his recordings, the ones I have never fail to move me.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bunny on June 25, 2007, 02:35:42 PM
Quote from: masolino on May 24, 2007, 11:41:35 PM
The flute sonatas and partita performed by Frans Brüggen (Sony Seon).  Probably not many people remember him as a recorder/traverso player since he has become a great conductor.  But this is THE classic when it comes to HIP versions of this music - not to be missed if you happen to see it in a record shop!  ;D
Quote from: Bunny on May 25, 2007, 08:48:24 AM
I found this available at Towerrecords for $5.52 -- Bach J.S: Sonatas & Partitas For Flute / Bruggen/Leonhardt.  At that price it's an automatic buy item for me. ;D

(http://art.towerrecords.com/coverart.asp?S=4267125&X=178&Y=178)

Quote from: masolino on May 25, 2007, 08:55:04 AM
Beware that you may not be getting the whole thing (but the most important part anyway). 
The original Seon version is on two rather loosely filled discs.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/416R6QZ2RVL._SS400_.jpg)

This cd has arrived, and here are the contents:



Musicians credited:


There are 18 tracks on the cd and total time is 73:23.  I'd love to know which works may have been cut.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on June 25, 2007, 04:29:35 PM
Quote from: Bunny on June 25, 2007, 02:35:42 PM


There are 18 tracks on the cd and total time is 73:23.  I'd love to know which works may have been cut.

Two arrangements, from BWV 1013 and BWV 1030 respectively, for chamber ensembles appear to be cut.  Five tracks in total.

The BWV 1013 arrangement offers "alternative instrumentation," i.e. assigning each movement to a different instrument - viola, harpsichord, baroque cello, recorder, violin.  The BWV 1030 arragement has the first movement transposed to d minor, and plays it like a concerto. 
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bunny on June 25, 2007, 07:28:23 PM
Quote from: masolino on June 25, 2007, 04:29:35 PM
Two arrangements, from BWV 1013 and BWV 1030 respectively, for chamber ensembles appear to be cut.  Five tracks in total.

The BWV 1013 arrangement offers "alternative instrumentation," i.e. assigning each movement to a different instrument - viola, harpsichord, baroque cello, recorder, violin.  The BWV 1030 arragement has the first movement transposed to d minor, and plays it like a concerto. 

Well, I knew something was missing because I found a description of the original set online and it listed many more musicians.  ::)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on June 26, 2007, 01:37:36 AM
Quote from: Bunny on June 25, 2007, 07:28:23 PM
Well, I knew something was missing because I found a description of the original set online and it listed many more musicians.  ::)

Well these are really kind of neat to have but hardly manditory.  I think it is cool to have all authentic Bach sonatas and suite performed by Bruggen on a single, cheap disc.  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bunny on June 26, 2007, 01:56:06 AM
Quote from: masolino on June 26, 2007, 01:37:36 AM
Well these are really kind of neat to have not hardly manditory.  I think it is cool to have all authentic Bach sonatas and suite performed by Bruggen on a single, cheap disc.  :)

Yes, and with a picture of Vermeer's lovely lady with a water pitcher. :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on July 27, 2007, 11:46:04 AM
A rather negative review of the new Mullova/ Dantone (Onyx) recording of the violin sonatas has been published on Musicweb (http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2007/July07/Bach_Mullova_ONYX4020.htm).

(http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2007/June07/Bach_ONYX4020.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Don on July 27, 2007, 11:52:17 AM
Quote from: Que on July 27, 2007, 11:46:04 AM
A rather negative review of the new Mullova/ Dantone (Onyx) recording of the violin sonatas has been published on Musicweb (http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2007/July07/Bach_Mullova_ONYX4020.htm).

(http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2007/June07/Bach_ONYX4020.jpg)

Q

I'm familiar with both the review and the reviewer.  As it happens, that reviewer is a very strong HIP advocate who reacts negatively to any facet of a Bach performance not in his comfort zone.  On the other hand, this reviewer knows his Bach very well.  Regardless, I'm sure I'll be acquiring the Mullova/Dantone set; these two performers rank quite high with me.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: bwv 1080 on July 27, 2007, 12:18:45 PM
Quote from: Expresso on June 22, 2007, 11:04:48 AM
That's a very good recording of the Art of Fugue... some of the movements are played by a string quartet and some others by two harpsichordists (Staier-Hill).

Is this back in print?  It is an excellent recording - my favorite in fact.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bogey on August 07, 2007, 11:00:39 AM
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/103/1035321.jpg)

Any thoughts here?

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=131888
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Don on August 08, 2007, 03:54:22 PM
Quote from: Que on July 27, 2007, 11:46:04 AM
A rather negative review of the new Mullova/ Dantone (Onyx) recording of the violin sonatas has been published on Musicweb (http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2007/July07/Bach_Mullova_ONYX4020.htm).

(http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2007/June07/Bach_ONYX4020.jpg)

Q

Just wanted to relate that since the time of the MusicWeb review, I've read two that raved about the set.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on August 09, 2007, 08:30:09 AM
Quote from: Don on August 08, 2007, 03:54:22 PM
Just wanted to relate that since the time of the MusicWeb review, I've read two that raved about the set.

I've just read a fairly positive review by Lindsay Kemp in the september issue of the Gramophone.
Though I'm not a real fan of her (she has a bit the taste of an English old lady - maybe she is just that.. 8)) and her favourite is Podger/Pinnock, a preference I do not share.

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: BorisG on August 09, 2007, 07:16:36 PM
Quote from: Que on August 09, 2007, 08:30:09 AM
I've just read a fairly positive review by Lindsay Kemp in the september issue of the Gramophone.
Though I'm not a real fan of her (she has a bit the taste of an English old lady - maybe she is just that.. 8)) and her favourite is Podger/Pinnock, a preference I do not share.

Q

I do not either.

I listened to "Paul B clips" of Mullova/Dantone at the Onyx website. From what I could tell, Mullova was too forward and her tone was often sour. I may be too harsh.

Blumenstock and Butt are on top for me. Then Sitkovetsky and Hill.

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Grazioso on August 10, 2007, 03:59:35 AM
Quote from: Bogey on August 07, 2007, 11:00:39 AM
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/103/1035321.jpg)

Any thoughts here?

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=131888

A decidedly mixed bag (and part of the first edition of the Brilliant complete Bach set, to which the same judgment applies). Worth it if the price is right, but since they sell it for $54, you may as well just buy the complete set, which sells for around $100, though the cello suites, among a few others pieces, in the new edition of the set are by a different hand.

High points: Lindberg's lute suites, Cohen's cello suites, flute sonatas by Preston, Pinnock, and Savall. Low point: Lubotsky's solo violin partitas and sonatas.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bogey on August 10, 2007, 06:21:25 AM
Quote from: Grazioso on August 10, 2007, 03:59:35 AM
A decidedly mixed bag (and part of the first edition of the Brilliant complete Bach set, to which the same judgment applies). Worth it if the price is right, but since they sell it for $54, you may as well just buy the complete set, which sells for around $100, though the cello suites, among a few others pieces, in the new edition of the set are by a different hand.

High points: Lindberg's lute suites, Cohen's cello suites, flute sonatas by Preston, Pinnock, and Savall. Low point: Lubotsky's solo violin partitas and sonatas.

Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on August 14, 2007, 02:29:47 AM
To lend a hand to some fellow posters on another thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2649.0.html) who think that Bach played on a guitar :o is an option... ;) - maybe we could do recommendations on Bach lute recordings?  :)
I'm curious myself what options are currently available.

I have this recording by Lutz Kirchhof, which I've always enjoyed very much. Though I'm wondering if if I don't need a "rougher", more exciting approach?
(Original issue pictured, as is a recent single CD reissue which I've only seen on German sites sofar)


(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/412RJ2EX21L._AA240_.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2788926.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Shrunk on August 14, 2007, 03:08:08 AM
(http://www.linnrecords.com/img/album/larger/ckd-300.jpg)

I can wholeheartedly recommend this 4 disc set by Nigel North.  You can purchase it (as CD or download) from the Linn website:

http://www.linnrecords.com/index.aspx
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Don on August 14, 2007, 06:13:18 AM
Quote from: BorisG on August 09, 2007, 07:16:36 PM
I do not either.

I listened to "Paul B clips" of Mullova/Dantone at the Onyx website. From what I could tell, Mullova was too forward and her tone was often sour. I may be too harsh.

Blumenstock and Butt are on top for me. Then Sitkovetsky and Hill.



Thanks for the tip about the free clips.  I listened also and was very impressed, not finding Mullova too forward or in the least sour.  Loved those clips and will definitely acquire the disc.

By the way, Blumenstock/Butt is my favorite as well.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on August 19, 2007, 10:25:29 AM
Quote from: Shrunk on August 14, 2007, 03:08:08 AM
(http://www.linnrecords.com/img/album/larger/ckd-300.jpg)

I can wholeheartedly recommend this 4 disc set by Nigel North.  You can purchase it (as CD or download) from the Linn website:

http://www.linnrecords.com/index.aspx

Shrunk, great recommendation, very attractive with those transcriptions. :)

Quote from: Que on July 27, 2007, 11:46:04 AM
A rather negative review of the new Mullova/ Dantone (Onyx) recording of the violin sonatas has been published on Musicweb (http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2007/July07/Bach_Mullova_ONYX4020.htm).

(http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2007/June07/Bach_ONYX4020.jpg)

Yeaaaah! Jed Distler has done a 10/10 on this recording here. (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11143)


I guess what we really need is your review - Don!? ::)
You'll probably will be writing one anyway - please don't forget to post it here as well. :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: George on August 21, 2007, 05:57:16 AM

Que, with reviews that diametrically opposed, I'd say it's a must buy!  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on August 21, 2007, 07:42:07 AM
Quote from: George on August 21, 2007, 05:57:16 AM
Que, with reviews that diametrically opposed, I'd say it's a must buy!  :)

Having listened to these Mullova/Dantone recordings twice by now I can say, that they are indeed very good, but regarding the strong competition not a must-have. There are a few shortcomings. The worst is the balance, which favours the violin too much. And the fillers are a bit strange. 

I can add, that tempi generally are fast and easy with natural phrasing and stylish and clear articulation, almost always true to the sources. Agogics also natural except in the first movement of the b-minor and the A-major sonata. The expression is IMO overdone here and seems a tad mannered. And like most of his collegues Dantone doesn´t know what to make of the strange Cembalo Solo movement of the G-major sonata.



Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 14, 2007, 06:04:55 PM
Quote from: George on September 14, 2007, 05:39:25 PM
Just checked amazon for a price:

:o :o :o

:o

Someone needs to reissue it on the cheap!

Barring that this set used to be available on individual discs. Might be a better way to go.



Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on October 04, 2007, 11:48:49 PM
Quote from: Shrunk on August 14, 2007, 03:08:08 AM
(http://www.linnrecords.com/img/album/larger/ckd-300.jpg)

I can wholeheartedly recommend this 4 disc set by Nigel North.  You can purchase it (as CD or download) from the Linn website:

http://www.linnrecords.com/index.aspx

In the mean time I got this 4CD set and wholeheartedly second Shrunk's recommendation.
I incidentally got it in its previous incarnation that is still floating around at bargain prices (check MDT)

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CKD300.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//CKD300.htm)

Transcriptions of the sonatas and partitas for violin solo and of the cello suites.
They sound absolutely convincing and enjoyable in their own right. Crisp, articulated and flowing playing.
The instrument sounds marvelous and it is beautifully recorded.
If you like Bach and lute playing - this is a must! :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on October 05, 2007, 06:28:12 PM
Quote from: Que on October 04, 2007, 11:48:49 PM
In the mean time I got this 4CD set and wholeheartedly second Shrunk's recommendation.
I incidentally got it in its previous incarnation that is still floating around at bargain prices (check MDT)

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CKD300.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//CKD300.htm)


North adds his own harmonisations (chords, arpeggios) to make this string music work on his instrument.  Whether these additives work well will be for each listener to decide.   To these ears they can sometimes sound slightly distracting, especially in the "cello" suites.  Also, like in Paolo Pandolfo's transcriptions for the viola da gamba, several suites have to be transposed to a different key.  This is not meant as criticism since jsb did the same for his own transcription (c minor BWV 1011 to g minor BWV 995).

BTW, the new incarnation also sells at a bargain price (that is 4 for 1), at least at amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000S0GZR4/sr=8-1/qid=1191636705/ref=olp_product_details/203-2800284-8319939?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1191636705&sr=8-1&seller=).  That is very nice, Linn!  :D
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on October 28, 2007, 12:50:56 AM
(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia//images_produits/ZoomPE/7/7/8/3760009290877.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/4793728)
              click picture for samples

I got this recently, after considering the wealth of HIP recordings now available!
I already had the 1st Kuijken/Leonhardt recording and sampled the other contenders extensively in a shop or I had to make do with on line snippets. The other candidates were: Blumenstock/Butt (HM); Goebel/Hill (DG Archiv); Biondi/Alessandrini (Opus 111); Rônez/Kubitscheck (Winter & Winter); Carmignola/Marcon (Sony); Montanari/Rousset (Naïve); Busch/Johannsen (Carus); Mullova/Dantone (Onyx) and Valetti/Frisch (Alpha). An incredibly impressive line up... :o The last two were the runners up.

I was looking for a recording that is not too austere (Blumenstock/Butt) or takes an overtly virtuosic/"brilliant" approach, considering the intimate and inward looking nature of these pieces (a number of these here, but Biondi/Alessandrini is a clear example). Some were (relatively) less inspired: Rônez/Kubitscheck and Busch/Johannsen, or are clearly out of touch with Bach's idiom (Montanari/Rousset). Of major importance was also the balance between the two instruments (on equal footing) and the "chemistry" between them in terms of complementarity and unity in style and above all: the rapport between them.

I was a bit apprehensive to go with Malgoire and Rannou, since Florence Malgoire is not (yet) a big name and this recording has attracted rather little interest amongst reviewers and collectors alike. When sampling, this recording made the impression of being intimate, idiomatic, and with a intense and tight collaborating between the players. And all of this is confirmed now I have gone through it several times. And I like it more and more each time I'm listening.
The performance is modest, intimate and sensitive but very "playful", spirited and expressive at the same time. The approach is rather "free" and highly imaginative, fast movements swift but not too fast, slow movements quite slow but with a strong "pulse". Within movements they use subtle rubato. The interplay between the players is exemplary: they feel as "one", with the violin "swirling" around the harpsichord. I discover new things each time.

The recording itself is up to the exceptionally high standards of Zig Zag: clear and very natural.
Highly recommended. :)

For those of you who master the German language, I've attached a very interesting review which also discusses the various technical aspects of the musical approach here.

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 04, 2007, 06:18:15 AM
Quote from: Que on October 28, 2007, 12:50:56 AM
(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia//images_produits/ZoomPE/7/7/8/3760009290877.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/4793728)  (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413SFYKEY8L._AA240_.jpg)
           
I got this recently, after considering the wealth of HIP recordings now available! ........................

Q - thanks for the 'line-up' and excellent comments; I've not explored these works for years, and in checking my collection, all that I had was a single disc of 3 of the sonatas w/ very young looking Martha Argerich & Mischa Maisky; BTW, an excellent performance & recording on 'modern' instruments (from the mid-80s, probably near the time I purchased it!).

But I would certainly like to obtain a 'complete' set of these works and in a HIP fashion - need to check if that recording you're recommending is available in the US - thanks again!  Dave :D
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on November 04, 2007, 08:37:14 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on November 04, 2007, 06:18:15 AM
Q - thanks for the 'line-up' and excellent comments; I've not explored these works for years, and in checking my collection, all that I had was a single disc of 3 of the sonatas w/ very young looking Martha Argerich & Mischa Maisky; BTW, an excellent performance & recording on 'modern' instruments (from the mid-80s, probably near the time I purchased it!).

But I would certainly like to obtain a 'complete' set of these works and in a HIP fashion - need to check if that recording you're recommending is available in the US - thanks again!  Dave :D

Dave, thanks for your kind remarks! :)
Maybe you've mixed up the violin sonatas and the gamba sonatas (in non-HIP recordings played on a cello). If that means that you're not very familiar with the violin sonatas, which have lingered in the shadow of their more famous sisters - the sonatas and partitas for violin solo, you're in for a very pleasant surprise indeed! :)

As for the sonatas for viola da gamba and harpsichord, I'm afraid I can't offer a comparative review. But I very much enjoy the recording by Koopman and Savall pictured below and you can find other recommendations earlier on this thread. And I'm sure that now we are on the topic others will pitch in as well! :)

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/06/371406.jpg)

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 04, 2007, 10:00:10 AM
Quote from: Que on November 04, 2007, 08:37:14 AM
Dave, thanks for your kind remarks! :)
Maybe you've mixed up the violin sonatas and the gamba sonatas (in non-HIP recordings played on a cello). If that means that you're not very familiar with the violin sonatas, which have lingered in the shadow of their more famous sisters - the sonatas and partitas for violin solo, you're in for a very pleasant surprise indeed! :)

As for the sonatas for viola da gamba and harpsichord, I'm afraid I can't offer a comparative review. But I very much enjoy the recording by Koopman and Savall pictured below and you can find other recommendations earlier on this thread. And I'm sure that now we are on the topic others will pitch in as well! :)

Q - Oh My!  :-[ ;D  You got me so excited w/ that cover & comments that I failed to look (and me being a radiologist!).  But, I do have a couple sets of the Bach Violin Sonatas, already - Wallfisch & Nicholson, excellent Hyperion Dyad bargin & Grumiaux & Jaccottet, another bargin on Philips Duo.

So, despite my confusion, I do need a complete set of the Cello Sonatas, and love Savall, so will add that name to my wish list - thanks, again.  Dave  :-*
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Valentino on November 08, 2007, 10:13:01 AM
Who's playing the second movement of KC 5 here (http://www.francoserblin.it/inglese.html)?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Shrunk on November 13, 2007, 09:07:44 AM
Quote from: Que on October 04, 2007, 11:48:49 PM
In the mean time I got this 4CD set and wholeheartedly second Shrunk's recommendation.
I incidentally got it in its previous incarnation that is still floating around at bargain prices (check MDT)

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/CKD300.jpg) (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//CKD300.htm)

Transcriptions of the sonatas and partitas for violin solo and of the cello suites.
They sound absolutely convincing and enjoyable in their own right. Crisp, articulated and flowing playing.
The instrument sounds marvelous and it is beautifully recorded.
If you like Bach and lute playing - this is a must! :)

Q


Glad you enjoyed it.  I've since purchased this disc as well:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519gjsMPCNL._AA280_.jpg)

Bach Lute Works, Vol. I.  Paul O'Dette (Harmonia Mundi)

Compared to North, O'Dette has a lighter touch and pays more attention the dance-like rhythms of the works.  North, OTOH, draws a wider palette of tonal colours from his instrument, which he uses to produce dramatic contrasts between phrases.  Both are excellent to my ears and I suspect I'll be picking up the remaining volumes in O'Dette's series as they are released.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Don on November 13, 2007, 04:13:07 PM
Quote from: fl.traverso on November 13, 2007, 04:08:27 PM
Have Hopkinson-Smith's recordings of this music (Naive) been overlooked?  :)

Not anymore.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Shrunk on November 13, 2007, 04:36:15 PM
Quote from: Don on November 13, 2007, 04:13:07 PM
Not anymore.

I've considered getting Hopkinson Smith's disc, as well, though it's a bit pricy.  I have his Dowland disc and, while the playing is exemplary, it's marred somewhat by excessively reverberant sound.  It's as if they covered the Carlsbad caves with ceramic tiles and used them as a recording studio.  Does the Bach disc have similar sound?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on December 03, 2007, 10:43:15 AM
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/82/326382.jpg) (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/06/371406.jpg) (http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia//images_produits/ZoomPE/8/2/4/0794881799428.jpg)


Quote from: SonicMan on December 03, 2007, 05:36:01 AM
Q - just added the Koopman-Savall performance of these works (pic put in above) to my collection - I believe that you've commented on that one, also - how do these two recordings differ, e.g. instruments used?  Thanks, as usual - Dave  :)

Dave, happy to make some comments on this. :)
I'll also take my recent purchase of the issue by Quintana and Frisch into account.

First, I think the Savall/Koopman remains my first choice. The Quintana/Frisch has swift tempi and a very infectious dash. Céline Frisch is an absolute joy - beautiful crystal-clear and detailed playing. Quintana has a nice, deep tone and his playing has a lot of character, but I think that with all that dash, he swoops over the details and his playing ultimately lacks sufficient profundity .

The Weber/Hill is a different story altogether. Moderately swift but tightly controlled tempi, this is a warm, "straight" and sober but nobel performance, compared with the more "bigger"/ "theatrical" gestures by Savall/Koopman. Carefully phrased and beautifully detailed. The use of the lute-harpsichord instead of a harpsichord adds to the attraction and makes this recording quite unique. So if you'd like a second version, this will be complementary both in style as sound-wise.

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 03, 2007, 03:24:31 PM
Quote from: Que on December 03, 2007, 10:43:15 AM
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/82/326382.jpg) (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/06/371406.jpg) (http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia//images_produits/ZoomPE/8/2/4/0794881799428.jpg)


Dave, happy to make some comments on this. :)
I'll also take my recent purchase of the issue by Quintana and Frisch into account.

First, I think the Savall/Koopman remains my first choice. The Quintana/Frisch has swift tempi and a very infectious dash. ....
The Weber/Hill is a different story ... use of the lute-harpsichord instead of a harpsichord adds to the attraction and makes this recording quite unique. So if you'd like a second version, this will be complementary both in style as sound-wise.

Q - thanks for your excellent response - I'm always interested in these 'hybrid' instruments, so think I'd prefer to give the Weber/Hill a listen -  ;D  Dave
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on December 04, 2007, 10:57:44 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on December 03, 2007, 03:24:31 PM
Q - thanks for your excellent response - I'm always interested in these 'hybrid' instruments, so think I'd prefer to give the Weber/Hill a listen -  ;D  Dave

The Sony vivarte recording by Bylsma and van Asperen uses a violoncello piccolo and a portative (chamber) organ.
The Channel Classics recording by Wispelwey and Egarr uses a violoncello piccolo, a harpsichord/chamber organ/fortepiano.

(http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/1329/41rkexfgqplss500dr5.jpg)
(http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4480/214198yf9.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on April 12, 2008, 10:53:05 PM
Let me bump this thread with request for your favourite recorings of the sonatas and partitas for violin solo.
I'm primarily interested in a new HIP recording next my Sigiswald Kuijken I (DHM), but don't let that stop anyone to recommend Hillary Hahn.... 8)

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/93/930298.jpg)

My preferred non-HIP:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VHBTGS4AL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411DAJXABPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

The field of interesting HIP contenders is somewhat less crowded in comparison with the ocean of non-HIP recordings:

I've noted down (HIP):

- Sigiswald Kuijken II (DHM)
- Rachel Podger (Channel Classics)
- Hélène Schmitt (Alpha)
- Jaap Schröder (Naxos)
- Lucy van Dael (Naxos)
- Monica Huggett (Virgin)
- John Holloway (ECM)
- Ingrid Matthews (Centaur)
- François Fernandez (Flora (http://www.kelys.org/flora/))
- Brian Brookes (Arts)
- Elisabeth Wallfish (Hyperion).

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: 71 dB on April 12, 2008, 11:16:41 PM
Quote from: Que on April 12, 2008, 10:53:05 PMrequest for your favourite recorings of the sonatas and partitas for violin solo.

Well, I don't have "favorite recordings" because I haven't heard most of them and I don't understand how other people have time and money to check out several different recordings of certain works. As an Elgar nut I do have many recordings of some of his works but even with Elgar it's impossible to check most of them out. What's worse is the fact the the "best" recordings are of course hard to find, OOP or extremely expensive just to piss music lovers off.

I have only one recording of Bach's Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin Violin, Lucy van Dael on Naxos (8.554422 and 8.554423). I don't have a clue how that compares to other recordings available. Life is too short to find out myself... ...I just find it more interesting to explore new music rather than new recordings...  :P
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on April 12, 2008, 11:24:14 PM
Quote from: 71 dB on April 12, 2008, 11:16:41 PM
Life is too short to find out myself... ...I just find it more interesting to explore new music rather than new recordings...  :P

I guess we have a different perspective of time.... ;D I have lived with Kuijken's 1st recording for some 15 years now, so I feel it's time for another take on these works.

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: 71 dB on April 13, 2008, 12:02:31 AM
Quote from: Que on April 12, 2008, 11:24:14 PM
I guess we have a different perspective of time.... ;D I have lived with Kuijken's 1st recording for some 15 years now, so I feel it's time for another take on these works.

Q

Well, 15 years ago I didn't even know Bach's music is worth my time or money.  ;D
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on April 13, 2008, 12:47:52 AM
Quote from: Que on April 12, 2008, 10:53:05 PM

The field of interesting HIP contenders is somewhat less crowded in comparison with the ocean of non-HIP recordings:

I've noted down (HIP):

- Sigiswald Kuijken II (DHM)
- Rachel Podger (Channel Classics)
- Hélène Schmitt (Alpha)
- Jaap Schröder (Naxos)
- Lucy van Dael (Naxos)
- Monica Huggett (Virgin)
- John Holloway (ECM)

Q

Our resident violin s&p collector and connoisseur, Premont, seems to be quite taken with
the recording by Ingrid Matthews (on Centaur).  Maybe you'd be interested in adding that to your list too...

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on April 13, 2008, 01:04:11 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 13, 2008, 12:47:52 AM
Our resident violin s&p collector and connoisseur, Premont, seems to be quite taken with
the recording by Ingrid Matthews (on Centaur).  Maybe you'd be interested in adding that to your list too...

Done!  :) And I've added François Fernandez on Flora (http://www.kelys.org/flora/).
And what are your favourites - Kuijken II, Schmitt?

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on April 13, 2008, 04:12:43 AM
Quote from: Que on April 13, 2008, 01:04:11 AM
Done!  :) And I've added François Fernandez on Flora (http://www.kelys.org/flora/).
And what are your favourites - Kuijken II, Schmitt?

Q

Schmitt may be a bit too eccentric for your taste if I have understood it correctly...
Kuijken II makes smooth listening - I prefer not to be challenged by "serious"
"interpretations" when there is already enough pathos in the music as is. 
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on April 13, 2008, 03:16:19 PM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 13, 2008, 12:47:52 AM
Our resident violin s&p collector and connoisseur, Premont, seems to be quite taken with
the recording by Ingrid Matthews (on Centaur).  Maybe you'd be interested in adding that to your list too...



Yes, her tempi are relative slow -but not too slow- and the playing is clean, transparent, beautiful and unmannered.

To the list should be added:

Brian Brookes (Arts music)
and
Elisabeth Wallfish (Hyperion).
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on April 13, 2008, 03:22:04 PM
Quote from: fl.traverso on December 04, 2007, 10:57:44 AM
The Sony vivarte recording by Bylsma and van Asperen uses a violoncello piccolo and a portative (chamber) organ.
The Channel Classics recording by Wispelwey and Egarr uses a violoncello piccolo, a harpsichord/chamber organ/fortepiano.
And the Guielmi brothers recording (Ars Musici like the Weber/Hill) uses viola da gamba and fortepiano.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on April 13, 2008, 03:32:43 PM
Quote from: Que on April 12, 2008, 10:53:05 PM
Let me bump this thread with request for your favourite recorings of the sonatas and partitas for violin solo.
I'm primarily interested in a new HIP recording next my Sigiswald Kuijken I (DHM), but don't let that stop anyone to recommend Hillary Hahn.... 8)

My preferred non-Hip versions are Grumiaux and Milstein - not surprising, but I would add the first recording of Christian Tetzlaff (virgin), Karl Suske (Berlin classics) and Susanne Lautenbacher (second recording, Vox).

Tetzlaff´s recording is something of an equal to the Matthews recording, and you can get it on a Virgin 4CD set coupled with Ralph Kirchbaums equally beautiful version of the Cello suites for almost no money.

And almost mandatory are Nigel North´s arrangements for lute (Linn) and Gustav Leonhardts arrangements for harpsichord (Telefunken:Sonata 2 -Bachs own transcription - and 3, Harmonia Mundi:Sonata 1,3 and the Suites - yes he recorded the sonata 3 twice). Robert Hill has released a double CD on Haenssler containing arrangements of some of these works too.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bunny on April 13, 2008, 06:32:17 PM
What about Mullova's recording of the sonatas with Dantone?  Has anyone heard these, or read anything about them?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41jfiwgfiVL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on April 13, 2008, 08:57:53 PM
Quote from: Bunny on April 13, 2008, 06:32:17 PM
What about Mullova's recording of the sonatas with Dantone?  Has anyone heard these, or read anything about them?

Johan van Veen reviewed it rather negatively at musicweb, but if you know that you don't share his taste then it shouldn't matter.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2007/July07/Bach_Mullova_ONYX4020.htm

I bought for almost nothing the rather unknown Richard Tognetti recording which is in the same camp (modernised instrument, gut strings, hip-influenced "crossover" performer...).  No, it doesn't sound too bad to me at all but I agree with Mr van Veen in part that a more "baroque" sound is easily imaginable...
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on April 13, 2008, 10:02:44 PM
Quote from: Bunny on April 13, 2008, 06:32:17 PM
What about Mullova's recording of the sonatas with Dantone?  Has anyone heard these, or read anything about them?

We have had a few posts on the accompanied violin sonatas a few pages back, you'll find links to reviews there. As FL pointed out Van Veen didn't like it, Jed Distler did however very much so. I did thouroughly sample it, but didn't buy. My impression was that's a very good recording and it was my runner up with Valetti & Frisch, but in the end I opted for Malgoire & Rannou - see my post here. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1081.msg98895.html#msg98895)

Quote from: premont on April 13, 2008, 03:16:19 PM
Yes, her tempi are relative slow -but not too slow- and the playing is clean, transparent, beautiful and unmannered. To the list should be added:

Brian Brookes (Arts music)
and
Elisabeth Wallfish (Hyperion).

Done!  :) Relatively slow doesn't sound ideal, but I'll try to checkout  Ingrid Matthews' recording anyway.

BTW, is your favourite still Rachel Podger?

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on April 14, 2008, 05:23:30 AM
Quote from: Que on April 13, 2008, 10:02:44 PM
We have had a few posts on the accompanied violin sonatas a few pages back, you'll find links to reviews there. As FL pointed out Van Veen didn't like it, Jed Distler did however very much so. I did thouroughly sample it, but didn't buy. My impression was that's a very good recording and it was my runner up with Valetti & Frisch, but in the end I opted for Malgoire & Rannou - see my post


There is recently re-released HM recording with Elizabeth Blumenstock and John Butt of which I have heard a lot of nice things said also. There are actually many options in HIP alone which I believe have not been much discussed.  I will post a response I decide to get it.  :)
(http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/2401/597894ua0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Don on April 14, 2008, 05:31:04 AM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 14, 2008, 05:23:30 AM
There is recently re-released HM recording with Elizabeth Blumenstock and John Butt of which I have heard a lot of nice things said also. There are actually many options in HIP alone which I believe have not been much discussed.  I will post a response I decide to get it.  :)
(http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/2401/597894ua0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


I'm familiar with most of the HIP recordings and find the Blumenstock the most rewarding of all.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on April 14, 2008, 05:39:18 AM
Quote from: Don on April 14, 2008, 05:31:04 AM
I'm familiar with most of the HIP recordings and find the Blumenstock the most rewarding of all.

Thanks for your feedback :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on April 14, 2008, 05:43:22 AM
Quote from: Don on April 14, 2008, 05:31:04 AM
I'm familiar with most of the HIP recordings and find the Blumenstock the most rewarding of all.

If you'd want your Bach straight and very sober IMO, it didn't do it for me.

What are your preferences on the solo violin sonatas and partitas, Don? :)

(Bunny succeeded in moving the topic from those to the accompanied sonatas, luckily this is a more general thread. ;D)

Q

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on April 14, 2008, 05:45:15 AM
Just an aside here -  I have spotted on the SA-CD site that a new Denon sacd release has been announced
for the Bach cello suites performed by the japanese baroqoe violinist Ryo Terakado using a Violoncello piccolo
da Spalla.  I'd be really interested to hear how good it is.  It may start a new trend of violinists playing/recording the
cello suites! 

(We can switch the topic back to the solo sonatas etc. any time!  ;D)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on April 14, 2008, 10:01:36 AM
Quote from: Que on April 13, 2008, 10:02:44 PM


BTW, is your favourite still Rachel Podger?

Q

She remains in the front row , and I am happy, that I own both her recording and Matthews´, - and many others.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bunny on April 14, 2008, 10:51:28 AM
Quote from: Que on April 14, 2008, 05:43:22 AM

(Bunny succeeded in moving the topic from those to the accompanied sonatas, luckily this is a more general thread. ;D)

Q



Oops!  With the thread entitled: Bach's Chamber and Instrumental Music, I didn't think this would be off-topic.

I've just been out of touch for such a long time that I missed the discussion of the Mullova.  I saw the C/T review, and became curious.  Btw, I had looked it up at the Gramophone website, and couldn't figure out whether they liked it or not.  In any event, I have the Ehnes/Beauséjour recordings which seem to be much in the same style, but with better reviews.

FWIW, I think C/T is endorsing any Baroque recording with vibrato... >:D

Again, apologies for going off topic!



Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Don on April 14, 2008, 01:25:00 PM
Quote from: Que on April 14, 2008, 05:43:22 AM
If you'd want your Bach straight and very sober IMO, it didn't do it for me.

What are your preferences on the solo violin sonatas and partitas, Don? :)


Blumenstock sober?  I find it more expressive and heart-felt than any other versions.

For the solo violin works, Matthews on Centaur is my favorite.  I also like the Podger, Schmitt, van Dael and Kuijken accounts.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bunny on April 14, 2008, 01:48:29 PM
Quote from: fl.traverso on April 14, 2008, 11:06:04 AM
I think Denon will release it as a hybrid.  Ordering from amazon jp probably isn't very difficult...(I think  0:) )

Actually, finding out about this at Amazon JP is not that difficult; and the recording is in fact a hybrid. ;)

Just go to SA-CD.net (http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/5285); then follow the link to Amazon Japan.  When you get to that page, just hit the link which says "Would you like to see this page in English ? Click here" and presto!  The page (http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/switch-language/product/B00169ZD9W/ref=dp_change_lang?ie=UTF8&language=en%5FJP) has enough English information to facilitate the sale.

As I see it, the only obstacle is the miserable state of the US dollar.  :'(
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on July 01, 2008, 01:29:53 AM
Quote from: premont on April 14, 2008, 11:36:42 AM
Thanks, hope you are right.
(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lt6isIDpL._SS500_.jpg)

(http://columbia.jp/artist-info/terakado/images/main_title01.jpg)



In addition to amazon jp, this is available from cdjapan.co.jp (http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=COGQ-32) as well, which accepts even payment via paypal. 

ps. I am in the process of checking out Terakado's S&P for vn solo -- which, according to an amazon jp
review, has wonderful texture and low notes.  :D
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on July 01, 2008, 08:07:11 AM
Quote from: traverso on July 01, 2008, 01:29:53 AM
ps. I am in the process of checking out Terakado's S&P for vn solo -- which, according to an amazon jp
review, has wonderful texture and low notes.  :D

You have to report, letting me know, if this is something to collect.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on July 03, 2008, 06:32:06 AM
Quote from: premont on July 01, 2008, 08:07:11 AM
You have to report, letting me know, if this is something to collect.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31yin1yjQ2L._SL600_.jpg)

A few selections from Terakado's recordings of S&P.   Incidentally, he appeared to use the same 1691 Giovanni Gracino violin which Sigiswald Kuijken used for his first recording (Kuijken's 2nd recording was made on a 1700 Gracino).  No description from me yet; dl and listen to the clips for yourself:

Along with the cello suites above, Terakado may be the first artist ever to have recorded all of BWV 1001 to 1012 in the original scoring.  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on July 03, 2008, 08:17:22 AM
Thanks, Traverso, for the selections. Very simple and unmannered playing. I think the Presto from the g-minor Sonata shines beautifully by this kind of treatement, the music so to say expresses itself. For the same reason I would expect his Fugues as well as the Chaconne to be very good. As to the Sarabande and Double from the h-minor Partita he surely plays in authentic tempo and informed light rhytm, but these movements do not IMO express themselves in the same immediate way as the Presto, so personally I prefer them played with a little more expression in the way Kuijken or Matthews do.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on July 03, 2008, 03:53:01 PM
Quote from: premont on July 03, 2008, 08:17:22 AM
Thanks, Traverso, for the selections. Very simple and unmannered playing. I think the Presto from the g-minor Sonata shines beautifully by this kind of treatement, the music so to say expresses itself. For the same reason I would expect his Fugues as well as the Chaconne to be very good. As to the Sarabande and Double from the h-minor Partita he surely plays in authentic tempo and informed light rhytm, but these movements do not IMO express themselves in the same immediate way as the Presto, so personally I prefer them played with a little more expression in the way Kuijken or Matthews do.

Hello Premont thanks for what I think is a very proper description of the clips.  I have not listened to disc 2 yet but I suspect it will continue the rather un-romantic approach you identify above.  Incidentally Terakado, in the booklet note written by himself (unfortunately in Japanese only), emphasises the authentic mixing of various national characters in this music as well as the Japanese character of his own contribution to the interpretative history of this music.  These performances BTW are not that recent; made in 1999 in NL, Terakado's recording actually predates Kuijken's 2nd recording and, who knows, may have been made with K's participation.  So T's relatively straightforward playing may have been the result of a self-conscious decision. :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on July 03, 2008, 05:30:38 PM
As an addendum, it is interesting to note that more and more HIP recordings of JSB instrumental and chamber music use the low pitch of a=400 or lower.  The actual decision depends, in each case, on both the performer's interpretative needs as well as on the instruments being used: players with keen ears can tell what instrument sounds best at what pitch.  Among recordings of the S&P, Terakado's is pitched at a=405 (he tried a=400 but didn't find the combination to be ideal at all), and I believe Monica Huggett's rather relaxed account may be among the lowest pitched, at a=392.  In general I prefer low pitches in this music which tend to make the "bass" notes more pronounced and sonorous, and its implied polyphony clearer. 
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on July 10, 2008, 12:44:00 PM
Quote from: traverso on July 03, 2008, 03:53:01 PM
Hello Premont thanks for what I think is a very proper description of the clips.  I have not listened to disc 2 yet but I suspect it will continue the rather un-romantic approach you identify above. 

Fortunately I happened to listen to the Chaconne and Gigue from the d-minor Partita, before the samples were deleted. And my general impression is unchanged. The interpretation is very neutral and unmannered and does not do much for me.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on July 10, 2008, 04:18:36 PM
Quote from: premont on July 10, 2008, 12:44:00 PM
The interpretation is very neutral and unmannered and does not do much for me.

May I conclude that you actually like your interpretations of these S&P mannered, tortured and biased?  ;)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 27, 2009, 07:10:19 AM
Quick!

List your favorite full-cycle recordings of these:

1. WTC

2. Cello suites

3. Violin sonatas and partitas
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bulldog on February 27, 2009, 08:29:43 AM
Quote from: Mn Dave on February 27, 2009, 07:10:19 AM
Quick!

List your favorite full-cycle recordings of these:

1. WTC

2. Cello suites

3. Violin sonatas and partitas

Your mission is to acquire these as quickly as I write them:

WTC - Tureck/DG
Cello - Beschi/Winter & Winter (baroque cello)
Violin - Matthews/Centaur (baroque violin)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 27, 2009, 08:52:10 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 27, 2009, 08:29:43 AM
Your mission is to acquire these as quickly as I write them:

WTC - Tureck/DG
Cello - Beschi/Winter & Winter (baroque cello)
Violin - Matthews/Centaur (baroque violin)

Thanks. I will wish-list them. I can't acquire anything for a little while yet.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 27, 2009, 09:09:23 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 27, 2009, 08:29:43 AM
Cello - Beschi/Winter & Winter (baroque cello)

Seconded.

WTC - Hewitt.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 27, 2009, 09:09:49 AM
Quote from: donwyn on February 27, 2009, 09:09:23 AM
Seconded.

WTC - Hewitt.

Thanks, matey.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 27, 2009, 10:28:46 AM
Quote from: traverso on July 03, 2008, 06:32:06 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31yin1yjQ2L._SL600_.jpg)

A few selections from Terakado's recordings of S&P.   Incidentally, he appeared to use the same 1691 Giovanni Gracino violin which Sigiswald Kuijken used for his first recording (Kuijken's 2nd recording was made on a 1700 Gracino).  No description from me yet; dl and listen to the clips for yourself:

Along with the cello suites above, Terakado may be the first artist ever to have recorded all of BWV 1001 to 1012 in the original scoring.  :)

As far as I (did) know, Kuijken used the same 1700 Grancino violin in his two recordings of the S&P; unfortunately, I don't have my discs here.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on February 27, 2009, 11:22:00 AM
Quote from: Mn Dave on February 27, 2009, 07:10:19 AM
Quick!

List your favorite full-cycle recordings of these:

1. WTC

2. Cello suites

3. Violin sonatas and partitas

1. Glen Wilson (Teldec) or Ottavio Dantone (Arts) (both on harpsichord! Check Bach on the Harpsichord (lute-harpsichord, clavichord, etc. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.0.html))

2. Anner Bijlsma (Sony) or Paolo Beschi (Winter & Winter)

3. Sigiswald Kuijken & Gustav Leonhardt (DHM) or Florence Malgoire & Blandine Rannou (Zig Zag Territoires) EDIT: these or the accompanied violin sonatas! See my post below for the sonatas & partitas.

Your musical taste is going into interesting directions!  :)
Seems you've quite a Baroque & Early Music breakthrough?  8)

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 27, 2009, 11:24:28 AM
Quote from: Que on February 27, 2009, 11:22:00 AM
1. Glen Wilson (Teldec) or Ottavio Dantone (Arts) (both on harpsichord! Check Bach on the Harpsichord (lute-harpsichord, clavichord, etc. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,289.0.html))

2. Anner Bijlsma (Sony) or Paolo Beschi (Winter & Winter)

3. Sigiswald Kuijken & Gustav Leonhardt (DHM) or Florence Malgoire & Blandine Rannou (Zig Zag Territoires)

Your musical tast is going into interesting directions!  :)
Seems you've quite a Baroque & Early Music breakthrough?  8)

Q

Thanks, Que. I will add those to the list.

Yes, my tastes seem to be travelling backward through time.  8)  Chopin and earlier: that's pretty much me, lately.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on February 27, 2009, 11:27:31 AM
Quote from: Mn Dave on February 27, 2009, 11:24:28 AM
Thanks, Que. I will add those to the list.

Yes, my tastes seem to be travelling backward through time.  8)  Chopin and earlier: that's pretty much me, lately.

Oops, I made an error in giving you my rec. for the accompanied violin sonatas! ::)

My recommended violin partitas & sonatas (solo): Sigiswald Kuijken (DHM, HIP) or Nathan Milstein (EMI/Capitol, non-HIP)

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 27, 2009, 11:34:26 AM
Quote from: Que on February 27, 2009, 11:27:31 AM
Oops, I made an error in giving you my rec. for the accompanied violin sonatas! ::)

My recommended violin partitas & sonatas (solo): Sigiswald Kuijken (DHM, HIP) or Nathan Milstein (EMI/Capitol, non-HIP)

Q

Thanks again. Some of that stuff is oop, eh?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on February 27, 2009, 11:47:27 AM
Quote from: Mn Dave on February 27, 2009, 11:34:26 AM
Thanks again. Some of that stuff is oop, eh?

Ehmmm, I didn't check but the two Kuijken recordings on DHM might be.
EDIT: Oh yes, and of course Glen Wilson's WTC - seriously OOP. Sorry about that.. :-\

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 27, 2009, 03:00:48 PM
Since the subject has come up (if inadvertently), anyone interested in the sonatas for violin and harpsichord might find these two discs attractive (in some of the finest recorded sound out there):



(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NKLs-BMIL._SS400_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mre1kNMlL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 27, 2009, 03:34:35 PM
Quoteauthor=donwyn link=topic=1081.msg280311#msg280311 date=1235779248]
Since the subject has come up (if inadvertently), anyone interested in the sonatas for violin and harpsichord might find these two discs attractive (in some of the finest recorded sound out there):


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NKLs-BMIL._SS400_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mre1kNMlL._SS500_.jpg)

Donwyn - just picked up the Mullova set of these works w/ Dantone - some exchanges in the 'listening thread' - these two performers should be great together, plus I have some Mozart on that label which is excellent - assume that you liked these recordings?  Dave
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bulldog on February 27, 2009, 03:50:54 PM
Quote from: Que on February 27, 2009, 11:47:27 AM
EDIT: Oh yes, and of course Glen Wilson's WTC - seriously OOP. Sorry about that.. :-\

True, but ArkivMusic has both books available "on demand".
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on February 27, 2009, 04:19:11 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on February 27, 2009, 03:34:35 PM
Donwyn - just picked up the Mullova set of these works w/ Dantone - some exchanges in the 'listening thread' - these two performers should be great together, plus I have some Mozart on that label which is excellent - assume that you liked these recordings?  Dave

Dave, I'm a huge fan of the Gryphon Trio's set of Mozart piano trios on Analekta. It's top notch and makes the grade even up against such luminaries as the Beaux Arts.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pL-q9l9ML._SS400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 28, 2009, 10:59:53 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 27, 2009, 10:28:46 AM
As far as I (did) know, Kuijken used the same 1700 Grancino violin in his two recordings of the S&P; unfortunately, I don't have my discs here.

This is also what I remember I read in the booklets.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 28, 2009, 11:12:01 AM
WTC:             
                    Gustav Leonhardt (DHM) or
                    Glenn Wilson (Teldec)

Cellosuites:
                    Sigiswald Kuijken (Violoncello da spalla) (Accent) or
                    Wieland Kuijken (Arcana) or
                    Ralph Kirchbaum (Virgin)

Violinsolos:
                   Ingrid Matthews (Centaur) or
                   Sigiswald Kuijken (DHM both his sets are recommendable) or
                   Christian Tetzlaff (Virgin)








Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Dr. Dread on February 28, 2009, 11:21:40 AM
Quote from: premont on February 28, 2009, 11:12:01 AM
WTC:             
                    Gustav Leonhardt (DHM) or
                    Glenn Wilson (Teldec)

Cellosuites:
                    Sigiswald Kuijken (Violoncello da spalla) (Accent) or
                    Wieland Kuijken (Arcana) or
                    Ralph Kirchbaum (Virgin)

Violinsolos:
                   Ingrid Matthews (Centaur) or
                   Sigiswald Kuijken (DHM both his sets are recommendable) or
                   Christian Tetzlaff (Virgin)

Thank you, premont.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Opus106 on March 02, 2009, 06:17:52 AM
Quote from: Que on February 27, 2009, 11:47:27 AM
Ehmmm, I didn't check but the two Kuijken recordings on DHM might be.
EDIT: Oh yes

A store about half-a-kilometre from my house has it (solo s&p). I think that box is "destined" for me, since I find that copy every time I go there even though I buy something else each time. I must be the stupidest Bach fan in the world.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: purephase on April 11, 2009, 03:48:52 PM
I apologize for bumping another Bach thread to front page, but I had a couple of quick questions regarding Fournier's recordings of the cello suites.  First, I was going to buy the famous DG recording for a friends and was wondering if there was any significant difference between the 1997 and 2007 releases?  I know it's the same recording, but is there any reason why the latter is so much cheaper than the former?  I was also wondering if anyone had heard Fournier's final recording of the suites for Phillips from 1977.  I had read that it differed somewhat from his most famous account but I did not know if it was worth tracking down.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Expresso on April 11, 2009, 04:16:52 PM
Quote from: Mn Dave on February 27, 2009, 07:10:19 AM
Quick!

List your favorite full-cycle recordings of these:

1. WTC

2. Cello suites

3. Violin sonatas and partitas


1) Leonhardt, Gould.

2) I only have Casals... i'm looking for further recommendations too.

3) Szeryng, Grumiaux.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Coopmv on April 11, 2009, 07:14:00 PM
Quote from: Expresso on April 11, 2009, 04:16:52 PM

1) Leonhardt, Gould.

2) I only have Casals... i'm looking for further recommendations too.

3) Szeryng, Grumiaux.

I played the following set this morning and was so impressed with Arthur Grumiaux once again.  He could make his violin sing ...  Henryk Szeryng was technically dazzling as well.  His recordings of Bach Violin Concertos BWV 1041-1042 with the ASMIF has been one of my all-time favorites.


Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 26, 2009, 03:24:25 PM
Quote from: premont on February 28, 2009, 11:12:01 AM


Violinsolos:
                   Ingrid Matthews (Centaur) or
                   Sigiswald Kuijken (DHM both his sets are recommendable) or
                   Christian Tetzlaff (Virgin)


Hi, Premont.

I was reading some old posts and noticed that Rachel Podger was replaced by Ingrid Matthews in your recommendations for the S&P for Violin.

What qualities do you appreciate in her recording? I didn't know her before your suggestion.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 26, 2009, 05:07:56 PM
Much to my surprise  :o I have found that Barthold Kuijken is not included between the recommendations in the flute sonatas. Therefore, I will fix that incredible mistake  :D, including here his two recordings (on DHM and Accent):

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on April 26, 2009, 07:40:31 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 26, 2009, 05:07:56 PM
Much to my surprise  :o I have found that Barthold Kuijken is not included between the recommendations in the flute sonatas. Therefore, I will fix that incredible mistake  :D, including here his two recordings (on DHM and Accent):



Do they sound rather similar?  (I only have the DHM myself)  They even have the same painting for cover art!  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 27, 2009, 03:57:48 AM
Quote from: traverso on April 26, 2009, 07:40:31 PM
Do they sound rather similar?  (I only have the DHM myself)  They even have the same painting for cover art!  :)

Exactly, the second cover is a detail of the same painting entitled "Flutist" by Johann Kupetzky.

All works included in the second recording (BWV 1034, 1032, 1035, 1030) are present in the first one, just excepting the BWV 1033.

IMO both recordings don't sound too much similar.

The more noticeable changes in the last recording are two: the sonatas with basso continuo were recorded without violoncello or viola da gamba, and Kuijken opts for more alert tempi in this case. IMO certain loss of intimacy is the consequence of this features.

The sound is fine in both of them, although in the second one is rather more "analityc".

All in all, I even prefer the DHM recording, although I can't obtain too much information from the booklet in japenese.  :)

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on April 27, 2009, 09:11:30 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 27, 2009, 03:57:48 AM
Exactly, the second cover is a detail of the same painting entitled "Flutist" by Johann Kupetzky.

Thanks for identifying the painting - it is too familiar to not have any idea about.   
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on April 27, 2009, 09:14:51 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 26, 2009, 03:24:25 PM
I was reading some old posts and noticed that Rachel Podger was replaced by Ingrid Matthews in your recommendations for the S&P for Violin.

What qualities do you appreciate in her recording? I didn't know her before your suggestion.

What qualities I appreciate in her interpretation? It is not to much to say I like everything she does. The generally calm pace, her musical and expressive phrasing within the frames of a natural flow. The exquisite beautiful sounds she draws from her instrument.

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on April 27, 2009, 09:19:04 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 27, 2009, 03:57:48 AM
The more noticeable changes in the last recording are two: the sonatas with basso continuo were recorded without violoncello or viola da gamba, and Kuijken opts for more alert tempi in this case. IMO certain loss of intimacy is the consequence of this features.

The sound is fine in both of them, although in the second one is rather more "analityc".

All in all, I even prefer the DHM recording, although I can't obtain too much information from the booklet in japenese.  :)

Even I own the DHM recording. Seems as if I can stay away from the Accent without missing anything important.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on April 28, 2009, 09:13:40 AM
Quote from: premont on April 27, 2009, 09:19:04 AM
Even I own the DHM recording. Seems as if I can stay away from the Accent without missing anything important.

Yup.  I am getting his GPT Sonate Metodiche instead.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 19, 2009, 09:46:19 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 18, 2009, 07:57:06 PM
Playing the new set of Bach flute sonatas performed by Jed Wentz (Brilliant, 2 CDs).

This set just includes the flute sonatas currently considered authentic and the Partita BWV 1013. Therefore, it excludes the sonatas BWV 1031 and 1033 and replace them for two trio sonatas for two instruments (BWV 1038 and 1039).

Surprisingly, this double-CD also includes the Musical Offering (BWV 1079), although it is not announced in the title.

Wentz is a virtuoso, who privileges fast and sometimes whimsical tempi, I'd say in "muscular", fibrous versions. IMO, these versions are rather different (even totally opposite) to the warm and fragile performances by Stephen Preston on Brilliant (licensed from CRD, UK).

Quote from: premont on August 19, 2009, 04:34:42 AM
Quite an understatement. Wentz´ theatrical and overloaded "empfindliche" style is IMO far removed from the world of this music, but belongs the music of a later generation.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 19, 2009, 06:47:55 AM
I suppose you are saying the same thing more directly, Premont.

BTW, what do you think about Stephen Preston? Some people (not my case) have problems with the sound quality of his flute sonatas in the Brilliant-Bach Edition.

Quote from: premont on August 19, 2009, 03:32:34 PM
I do not find any reason to complain about the sound quality, neither about the recording as such nor the soft, sometimes almost recorder-like sound of Prestons traverso. And I like his tempi and phrasing very much. Some ( I can imagine Wentz among others) may find him boring, but in these ears his playing draws full attention to the music, and this is what matters to me.

I totally agree about Preston, Premont: a very natural, warm and delicate performance.

During the past weekend I was reading the liner notes written by Wentz for his new recording of the flute sonatas. I was especially interested in the following paragraph: "From artefacts we move on facts, which, of course, are the sources consulted in preparing such an undertaking: Kirnberger for tempi and the expression of the metre signs, Mattheson on basso continuo, Kircher on the Passions, and Quantz on matters of technique, to name just a few. I shall say little of these important fact-givers here, simply because  anyone wishing to censure our performance style will not be deterred by the mere mention of historical sources, no matter how plentiful or illustrious they might be. Frankly, if a critic doesn't like rubato, full-voiced continuo realizations or fast tempi, no amount of argumentation from 18th-century writers will effect a revolution in his taste: words in paper speak to the intellect, the heart has its own rules. After 25 years in this business, I have lost the taste for belabouring points of taste. What I have done must speak for itself".    

IMO, Wentz is right at least in one aspect: it's deeply disappointing to discuss about mere issues of taste. But I think that some strange things happen in the mind of some musicians, when they come in the studio. Tastes are tastes, it's right. But in what sense, for example, the first movement of the Sonata in B minor BWV 1030 is an Andante when is played by Wentz in this recording. I have not read Kirnberger, but I am not prepared to accept a rampant tempo like that, when the movement was clearly marked Andante by Bach (from the Italian "to walk"), in a time when horses and carriages were the major expression of speed! Here an example of that movement to illustrate my point:



http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=8237808-7b3



Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on August 20, 2009, 02:54:56 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 19, 2009, 09:46:19 PM

During the past weekend I was reading the liner notes written by Wentz for his new recording of the flute sonatas. I was especially interested in the following paragraph: "From artefacts we move on facts, which, of course, are the sources consulted in preparing such an undertaking: Kirnberger for tempi and the expression of the metre signs, Mattheson on basso continuo, Kircher on the Passions, and Quantz on matters of technique, to name just a few". ..

IMO, Wentz is right at least in one aspect: it's deeply disappointing to discuss about mere issues of taste.

Taste was rapidly changing - even then, and most of the sources which were published around or after Bach´s death reflect the taste of the later generation, and historical information was not their business.This is why the issue of taste (not your taste or mine of course, but the taste of the musicians of that age) is important.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 20, 2009, 06:33:08 AM
Quote from: premont on August 20, 2009, 02:54:56 AM
Taste was rapidly changing - even then, and most of the sources which were published around or after Bach´s death reflect the taste of the later generation, and historical information was not their business.This is why the issue of taste (not your taste or mine of course, but the taste of the musicians of that age) is important.

I agree. When I said it's a frustrating to discuss about matters of taste, I was referring to our personal and current tastes (as listeners, critics or musicians), not to the composer's taste or conception in music. Obviously, the composer's musical conception is the base of a HIP performance and musicians should subordinate their own "tastes" to the composer's intentions reflected for the sources, if they are searching that kind of HIP performance, especially observing the musical markings and indications of tempo. BTW, it's very impressive to see the fast changes produced in the musical conceptions during the second half of the XVIII century; although if we observe the philosophy, the politics or the economics of that time, the situation is not very different.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 22, 2009, 04:26:10 PM
Quote from: premont on November 22, 2009, 08:57:12 AM
... I am beginning more and more to appreciate musicians without towering ego´s.

I did read these words when I was listening to this supremely measured and non-egotistic version of the Musical Offering... Apparently it has not been mentioned here until now, which it is a shame for this great forum  :). Highly recommended:

J.S. Bach - Musikalisches Opfer BWV 1079
Masahiro Arita, transverse flute
Ryo Terakado, baroque violin
Natsumi Wakamatsu, baroque violin, baroque viola
Tetsuya Nakano, viola da gamba
Chiyoko Arita, harpsichord
Denon Records
Recording: December 15-18, 1993

:)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on November 23, 2009, 01:12:56 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 22, 2009, 04:26:10 PM
I did read these words when I was listening to this supremely measured and non-egotistic version of the Musical Offering... Apparently it has not been mentioned here until now, which it is a shame for this great forum  :). Highly recommended:

Reminds me of the fact, that I have decided to acquire the violin S+P with Terakado.
His cello suites on violoncello da spalla are outstanding, and not completely self-effacing.

Not sure the Mus.Opf. is available PT. I did not get it in time.

I own Arita´s recording of Bach´s solo chamber music for traverso. Also a non-egoistic interpretation. Note, that Arita also is the traverso soloist on Andrew Manze´s Bach ouverture b-minor, released as a Brilliant Classics steal.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2009, 02:35:04 AM
Quote from: premont on November 23, 2009, 01:12:56 AM
Reminds me of the fact, that I have decided to acquire the violin S+P with Terakado.
His cello suites on violoncello da spalla are outstanding, and not completely self-effacing.

Not sure the Mus.Opf. is available PT. I did not get it in time.

I own Arita´s recording of Bach´s solo chamber music for traverso. Also a non-egoistic interpretation. Note, that Arita also is the traverso soloist on Andrew Manze´s Bach ouverture b-minor, released as a Brilliant Classics steal.

Yes, I bought those orchestral suites when I noticed that fact... And, I think, it was a fortunate decision because it is an excellent recording (now Brilliant Classics, but licensed by Denon).

Unfortunately those Denon discs are near to impossible to get in Occident, but in Japan they have been re-issued at very cheap prices. You can get the Musical Offering for US $11 (http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=COCO-70463) on CDJapan and Terakado for US $24 (http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=COCQ-84182). Just shipping and handling costs are a bit expensive.  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on November 23, 2009, 03:41:21 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2009, 02:35:04 AM
Unfortunately those Denon discs are near to impossible to get in Occident, but in Japan they have been re-issued at very cheap prices. You can get the Musical Offering for US $11 (http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=COCO-70463) on CDJapan Just shipping and handling costs are a bit expensive.  :)

Thanks for the link. Musicalisches Opfer ordered from CDjapan just now. Other than the high shipping cost I have to pay tax et.c., which may amount to almost as much as the price of the CDs + shipping cost :o :o :o. This is why I prefer the European Amazon´s whenever possible, so the S + P ´s was orderd from Amazon.de. 
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2009, 03:56:01 AM
Quote from: premont on November 23, 2009, 03:41:21 AM
Thanks for the link. Musicalisches Opfer ordered from CDjapan just now. Other than the high shipping cost I have to pay tax et.c., which may amount to almost as much as the price of the CDs + shipping cost :o :o :o. This is why I prefer the European Amazon´s whenever possible, so the S + P ´s was orderd from Amazon.de.

That Musical Offering is worth its weight in gold, Premont! You won't regret this purchase. My only minor quibble about it, it is the slightly "bright" sound quality preferred by Denon and, apparently, by the Japanese market.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on November 23, 2009, 04:07:11 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2009, 03:56:01 AM
My only minor quibble about it, it is the slightly "bright" sound quality preferred by Denon and, apparently, by the Japanese market.

Yes, I have experienced this from other Denon purchases. I prefer balanced sound of course, but given the choice between bright sound and the opposite, I prefer without doubt the bright sound.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on January 29, 2010, 01:00:20 AM
All posts on the cello suites have been moved here: Bach's Cello Suites (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3719.0.html).

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 11, 2010, 06:52:00 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 09, 2010, 05:05:28 AM
The Trio Sonatas of Johann Sebastian Bach performed on a diverse collection of period instruments
Christa Rakich, organ & harpsichord
Dana Maiben, violin (Nicola Amati, 1658)
Wendy Rolfe, flute (Rod Cameron, after G.A. Rottenburgh)
Alice Robbins, 'cello and viola da gamba (Thomas Urquhart, and William Turner, respectively, after instruments from London c. 1680)
2 CDs
Loft Recordings


Disc 1

Prelude in b, BWV 544.1                                   
Christa Rakich, organ
Paul Fritts Opus 18 (2000), Pacific Lutheran University, Tacoma, WA

Sonata #1 in E-flat, BWV 525
Christa Rakich, organ
Taylor & Boody Opus 14 (1988), Clifton Forge Baptist Church, Clifton Forge, VA

Sonata #5 in C, BWV 529
Wendy Rolfe, flute
Alice Robbins, 'cello
Christa Rakich, harpsichord (Willard Martin Opus 106 after Blanchet)

Sonata # 3 in d, BWV 527
Christa Rakich, organ
John Brombaugh Opus 22 (1979), Christ Church, Tacoma, WA

Fugue in b minor, BWV 544.2                               
Christa Rakich, organ
Paul Fritts Opus 18 (2000), Pacific Lutheran University, Tacoma, WA

Total time: 53:41


Disc 2

Prelude in e, BWV 548.1
Christa Rakich, organ
C.B. Fisk Opus 56 (1971), Old West Church, Boston, MA

Sonata #6 in G, BWV 530                                         
Christa Rakich, organ
Richards-Fowkes Opus 1 (1991), St. Barnabas Church, Greenwich, CT

Sonata #4 in e, BWV 528
Dana Maiben, violin
Alice Robbins, viola da gamba
Christa Rakich, harpsichord
Willard Martin Opus 106 (1981) after Blanchet
Recorded May 23, 2000, St. Barnabas Church, Greenwich, CT

Sonata #2 in c, BWV 526
Christa Rakich, organ
Greg Harrold Opus 14 (1995), Residence of Alan Kay & Bonnie MacBird , Brentwood, CA

Fugue in e, BWV 548.2
Christa Rakich, organ
C.B. Fisk Opus 56 (1971), Old West Church, Boston, MA
   
Total time: 51:59


GOTHIC LABEL WEBSITE (https://www.gothic-catalog.com/J_S_Bach_Trio_Sonatas_Christa_Rakich_2_CDs_p/lrcd-1102-03.htm)

Quote from: premont on February 09, 2010, 07:27:03 AM
Only two of the Triosonatas performed on other instruments than the organ and even in rather un-Bachian scorings, as it seems. But how do they play?

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 09, 2010, 08:28:44 AM
Yes, only BWV 529 and BWV 528 are performed on arrangements; but I don't see a particularly "un-Bachian" character in the scorings. BWV 529 is arranged for flute, harpsichord and cello, IMO three rather natural choices to replace the organ. Apparently, the choices for BWV 528 could seem a bit stranger, but are explained by Rakich: "The opening movement of Sonata IV in e is transcribed from the "Sinfonia" from Cantata 76. In the cantata, the gamba plays the part transcribed for the left hand. So it was natural to leave it, add a violin for the upper part, and assign continuo to the harpsichord. In the final movement, the gamba played the bass line with treble voices assigned to the violin and harpsichord. But when it came to the middle movement, a bit of rehearsal horseplay yielded a stunning possibility where the gamba plays the middle voice, and harpsichord the outer two".

All is played here with great precision and elegance, including the arrangements, but I prefer the pieces played by Rakich on organ.

Quote from: premont on February 09, 2010, 11:21:00 AM
I am not convinced. A Bachian scoring would be two melody-instruments (excuse me the horrible word) f.i. one flauto traverso, one violin and continuo (like the Triosonata from Musicalisches Opfer), or one melody-instrument and cembalo obligato (like the violin/harpsichord sonatas). I admit, that the recording you recommended some time ago with two lute-harpsichords is relevatory, but in this case I imagine a rendering on pedal harpsichord with lute stops like the one by Eduard Power Biggs.

However in the long run the musicianship is more important than the scoring, and I hear you say, that the organist is very good. I just have the problem, that I by now own > 50 recordings of the organ triosonatas, so another recording has got to offer something really special to sustain my interest.


The previous conversation inspired me to do some investigation about the different scorings used in the arrangements of the organ sonatas (BWV 525-530).

I thought it would be interesting to share the following post of Brad Lehman in the Bach-Cantatas site:

"Excluding the organ, and Bach's own arrangement of part of 527 as the Triple Concerto (1044), here are the recordings I have:

- Konrad & Thomas Ragossnig playing 526 on lute and harpsichord

- Bream and Malcolm on lute and harpsichord (I don't currently have this, but have heard it on LP)

- Rampal and Veyron-Lacroix on flute and harpsichord (LP) (an unpalatable performance that I reviewed here earlier....)

- King's Consort: two violins, viola, cello, oboe, oboe d'amore, theorbo, organ, harpsichord variously deployed

- Musica Pacifica: recorder, violin, cello, harpsichord

- Savall and Koopman: 529 on viola da gamba and harpsichord

- E Power Biggs on pedal harpsichord

- Anthony Newman playing 530 on pedal harpsichord (LP)

- Hazelzet and Ogg playing 525-528 on traverso and harpsichord

- Fisk and Fuller on guitar and harpsichord

- Bogdanovich and Comparone on guitar and harpsichord (with heavy use of buff stop) "Bach With Pluck"

- Leopard and Paul on two Lautenwercke

- Aulos Ensemble with oboe d'amore, viola da gamba, cello, harpsichord in 528 (based on the instrumentation in Cantata BWV 76), and flute, violin, cello, harpsichord in 525

- Joseph Payne overdubbing himself with three separate harpsichord tracks, maximum stereo separation: single movements from 526 and 529 ("Spaced-Out Bach" LPs from the 1970s....)

- The new London Baroque recording (I haven't heard it yet): two violins, cello, harpsichord

- I've heard terrific live performances of these sonatas by Elizabeth Farr on pedal harpsichord; not recorded yet, to my knowledge, but she told me she was planning to do so someday

What other combinations are out there? Someday I'll finish my arrangement for two harpsichords....

My favorites in there are Fisk/Fuller and Hazelzet/Ogg. But all these different instrumentations bring out interesting aspects of the music".

AFAIK, other four discs (and Rakich's discs, for sure) could be considered in this non-exhaustive list:

Le Concert Français
Sonate a Flauto, Violino e Basso (Astrée)
S. Marc, recorder, voice flute; F. Fernadez, violin;  P. Pierlot, viola da gamba & P. Hantaï, harpsichord
BWV 529: recorder, violin & continuo
BWV 525: voice flute, violin & continuo
BWV 530: recorder, violin & continuo
(Great disc!)

Guido Balestracci (viola da gamba)/ Blandine Rannou (harpsichord)
Sonates pour viole de gambe et clavecin obligé (Zig-Zag Territoires)
BWV 528 – viola da gamba, harpsichord

The Rare Fruits Council
Bach Trio Sonatas (Astrée)
M. Kramer, violin; P. Valetti, violin; B. Mate, cello; Alessandro de Marchi, organ and D. Boerner, harpsichord.
BWV 527 & 530

Palladian Ensemble
Bach Trio Sonatas
Pamela Thorby, recorders; Rachel Podger, violin; Susanna Heinrich, viola da gamba & William Carter, theorbo
BWV 525, 530, 529, 527

I don't have the last two discs, therefore, I don't know their exact scorings, but apparently "The Rare Fruits Council" uses a harpsichord/organ double continuo.

:)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 12, 2010, 03:50:30 PM
Thanks for this survey, Antoine. I own twelve of the recordings Lehman mentions and several others. Maybe I should post my own list, since many of the recordings are most interesting. BTW I do not agree (with Lehman) that the arrangements are "better" than the organ versions.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 13, 2010, 08:17:37 AM
Quote from: premont on February 12, 2010, 03:50:30 PM
Thanks for this survey, Antoine. I own twelve of the recordings Lehman mentions and several others. Maybe I should post my own list, since many of the recordings are most interesting. BTW I do not agree (with Lehman) that the arrangements are "better" than the organ versions.

It would be great to complete the list with other discs and recommendations, Premont. Anyway, I would swear that your favorite transcription is not for guitar and harpsichord, am I wrong?  :D 
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 14, 2010, 01:12:47 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 13, 2010, 08:17:37 AM
It would be great to complete the list with other discs and recommendations, Premont. Anyway, I would swear that your favorite transcription is not for guitar and harpsichord, am I wrong?  :D

No, Antoine, you are not wrong. ;)

Here is a list of the recordings I own of different chamber ensemble arrangements of Bachs Triosonatas for organ BWV 525 – 530. I have not included versions for pedal harpsichord or lute harpsichord.

525 - 530  Musica Pacifica  scored for recorder, violin & continuo.  (Virgin)

525 – 530  Heinz Holliger et alii (modern instruments and different scorings – either two melody instruments and continuo or one melody instrument and cembalo)  (Philips)

525, 529 & 530  Sebastian Marq, Francois Fernandez, Phillipe Pierlot and Pierre Hantaï
scored for recorder, violin and continuo  (Astrée)

527 &  530  Rare Fruits Council scored for either two violins and continuo or violin, viola and continuo,  (Astrëe)

525 – 530  The Purcell Quartet scored for two violins and continuo (the continuo viola da gamba sometimes playing parts of the middle part)  (Chandos)

525 – 530  Palladian ensemble scored for recorder, violin and continuo  (Linn 2CD)

525 – 530  Arion Ensemble  scored for traverso, violin and continuo (Analecta)

528    Freiburger Barocksolisten (modern instruments) scored for oboe, violin and continuo (Christophorus)

525 & 527  Camerata Köln scored for recorder or traverso and violin and continuo (CPO)

525 – 530  The King´s Consort scored for different combinations of two melody instruments and continuo (Hyperion)

525 – 530  London Baroque scored for two violins and continuo or violin, viola and continuo (BIS)

525 – 530  Le Parlement de Musique  scored for different and somtimes rather unusual combinations (Assai)

525 – 530  Reine-Marie Verhagen  recorder and  Tini Mathot organ, harpsichord  (Challenge)

525 – 530  Hille Perl  viola da gamba  Christine Schornsheim harpsichord  (DHM)

525, 527, 529 & 530  Marion Verbruggen  recorder  Mitzi Meyerson  harpsichord  (Harmonia  Mundi)

527 & 529  Stefano Bagliano  recorder  Ottavio Dantone  harpsichord  (Dynamic)

525, 526 & 529  Lorenzo Cavasanti  recorder / traverso  Sergio Ciomei  harpsichord  (Nuova Era)

525 – 530  András Adorján  traverse flute (modern)  Johannes Skudlik  harpsichord  (Ambitus)

525, 527 & 529  Giuliano Furlanetto  traverso  Francesco Bravo  harpsichord  (Phoenix)

525 & 529 (IIRC)  Julian Bream guitar  George Malcolm  harpsichord  (Sony)

529  Jordi Savall  viola da gamba Ton Koopman  harpsichord   (Alia Vox)

529  Paolo Pandolfo  viola da gamba  Rinaldo Alessandrini  harpsichord  (Harmonia Mundi)

Edit: Reading Lehman´s list I see that I forgot Hazelzet/Ogg and Balestracci/Rannou, maybe because I do not find them among the best.

My favorites  are The King´s Consort and London Baroque

My least favored  are The Purcell Quartet, Reine-Maria Verhagen/Tini Mathot and András Adorján/Johannes Skudlik.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2010, 07:48:29 AM
Thanks for doing this, Premont; there are interesting additions in your list.

I am certainly interested in the King's Consort and London Baroque; but these other three (OOP  :-\) discs also look interesting to me:

Quote from: premont on February 14, 2010, 01:12:47 PM

525 - 530  Musica Pacifica  scored for recorder, violin & continuo.  (Virgin)

525 – 530  Hille Perl  viola da gamba  Christine Schornsheim harpsichord  (DHM)

525, 526 & 529  Lorenzo Cavasanti  recorder / traverso  Sergio Ciomei  harpsichord  (Nuova Era)


:)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 15, 2010, 10:03:32 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2010, 07:48:29 AM
Thanks for doing this, Premont; there are interesting additions in your list.

I am certainly interested in the King's Consort and London Baroque; but these other three (OOP  :-\) discs also look interesting to me:

:)

Hille Perl is not OOP, it was released 2009 and I acquired it from JPC a few months ago.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Triosonaten-BWV-525-530/hnum/5560510
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2010, 10:11:02 AM
Quote from: premont on February 15, 2010, 10:03:32 AM
Hille Perl is not OOP, it was released 2009 and I acquired it from JPC a few months ago.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Triosonaten-BWV-525-530/hnum/5560510

Thanks for the info, I will check it out.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 18, 2010, 12:00:59 PM
Not too long back in the Listening Thread, I posted 2 CDs of Bach's Viola da Gamba/Keyboard Sonatas - have owned the older piano/cello version for years, which received a number of negative comments (and reviews have been mixed), plus the recording is short!  The post is quoted below which includes the other disc of these works that I own, i.e. w/ Savall/Koopman, and will keep!

But a more HIP replacement(s) for the other has now interested me; so I've looked at some other offerings and I've also reviewed an excellent and quite extensive set of reviews by our own Don HERE (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Instr-ViolaDaGamba-Comp.htm); two of a number recommended by Don intrigued me: 1) Spanyi on a tangent piano on BIS - I will likely purchase this disc just because of its uniqueness; and 2) Quintana & Frisch on a reduced priced HM disc; the latter an excellent review also in Fanfare.  Now, a third more recent recording w/ Pinnock was recommended by Stuart and also received a superb review in Fanfare!

So, please help w/ comments!  I believe I want the Spanyi disc - don't believe that I need both of the other two, so would enjoy hearing some opinions - both of the latter are viola da gamba & harpsichord versions - thanks all!  :D


(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/BISCD1061.jpg)  (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/HMA1951712.jpg)  (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/AV2093.jpg)

QuoteA BLAST from the PAST!  :D

Bach, JS - Cello Sonatas w/ Mischa Maisky & Martha Argerich; I've probably owned this CD when first released (at least 20+ yrs) - recorded in the mid-1980s when both looked so young!  Still enjoy -  :)

Now, my other HIP-version is also shown below w/ Savall & Koopman - may put that one on next!

(http://www.iclassics.com/images/local/300/1901E.jpg)  (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Koopman-H03%5BAlia-Vox%5D.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Scarpia on April 18, 2010, 12:17:00 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 18, 2010, 12:00:59 PM
Not too long back in the Listening Thread, I posted 2 CDs of Bach's Viola da Gamba/Keyboard Sonatas - have owned the older piano/cello version for years, which received a number of negative comments (and reviews have been mixed), plus the recording is short!  The post is quoted below which includes the other disc of these works that I own, i.e. w/ Savall/Koopman, and will keep!

But a more HIP replacement(s) for the other has now interested me; so I've looked at some other offerings and I've also reviewed an excellent and quite extensive set of reviews by our own Don HERE (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Instr-ViolaDaGamba-Comp.htm); two of a number recommended by Don intrigued me: 1) Spanyi on a tangent piano on BIS - I will likely purchase this disc just because of its uniqueness; and 2) Quintana & Frisch on a reduced priced HM disc; the latter an excellent review also in Fanfare.  Now, a third more recent recording w/ Pinnock was recommended by Stuart and also received a superb review in Fanfare!

So, please help w/ comments!  I believe I want the Spanyi disc - don't believe that I need both of the other two, so would enjoy hearing some opinions - both of the latter are viola da gamba & harpsichord versions - thanks all!  :D


(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/BISCD1061.jpg)  (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/HMA1951712.jpg)  (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/AV2093.jpg)

I have the Spanyi recording and found the sound of the instrument very unpleasant, never managed to listen to the entire thing.  If you have a recording with the proper instumentation of viola da gamba and harpsichord, the only other thing you need to hear is the Wisperwey, which employs various keyboard instruments and a cello to reinforce the bass line at times.  There is also a transcription of the piece for two flutes and continuo (by Bach himself) which is worth hearing.


The idea that a Pinnock recording is worth hearing seems counter intuitive.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Coopmv on April 18, 2010, 12:45:49 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 18, 2010, 12:00:59 PM
Not too long back in the Listening Thread, I posted 2 CDs of Bach's Viola da Gamba/Keyboard Sonatas - have owned the older piano/cello version for years, which received a number of negative comments (and reviews have been mixed), plus the recording is short!  The post is quoted below which includes the other disc of these works that I own, i.e. w/ Savall/Koopman, and will keep!

But a more HIP replacement(s) for the other has now interested me; so I've looked at some other offerings and I've also reviewed an excellent and quite extensive set of reviews by our own Don HERE (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NonVocal/Instr-ViolaDaGamba-Comp.htm); two of a number recommended by Don intrigued me: 1) Spanyi on a tangent piano on BIS - I will likely purchase this disc just because of its uniqueness; and 2) Quintana & Frisch on a reduced priced HM disc; the latter an excellent review also in Fanfare.  Now, a third more recent recording w/ Pinnock was recommended by Stuart and also received a superb review in Fanfare!

So, please help w/ comments!  I believe I want the Spanyi disc - don't believe that I need both of the other two, so would enjoy hearing some opinions - both of the latter are viola da gamba & harpsichord versions - thanks all!  :D


(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/BISCD1061.jpg)  (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/HMA1951712.jpg)  (http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/AV2093.jpg)

Dave,

Just a disclaimer.  I do not read Fanfare and in fact do not bother with most of the commercial reviews of classical music.  Trevor Pinnock has been a tried and true and known quantity to me for three decades.  I read some reviews on Amazon and decided to give the CD a try ...
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bulldog on April 18, 2010, 12:56:37 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 18, 2010, 12:17:00 PM
I have the Spanyi recording and found the sound of the instrument very unpleasant, never managed to listen to the entire thing.  If you have a recording with the proper instumentation of viola da gamba and harpsichord, the only other thing you need to hear is the Wisperwey, which employs various keyboard instruments and a cello to reinforce the bass line at times.  There is also a transcription of the piece for two flutes and continuo (by Bach himself) which is worth hearing.

Scarpia, you are one fussy guy; I can only repeat that I found Spanyi's tangent piano highly attractive, while the Wispelwey (except for the additional pieces played) is a throw-away due to his penchant for weak articulation and phrasing.

Concerning Mason/Pinnock, I have that recording and it's mighty fine.  Still, I prefer the Frisch on Harmonia Mundi.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on April 18, 2010, 01:34:57 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 18, 2010, 12:00:59 PM
Not too long back in the Listening Thread, I posted 2 CDs of Bach's Viola da Gamba/Keyboard Sonatas - have owned the older piano/cello version for years, which received a number of negative comments (and reviews have been mixed), plus the recording is short!  The post is quoted below which includes the other disc of these works that I own, i.e. w/ Savall/Koopman, and will keep!

So, please help w/ comments!

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/HMA1951712.jpg) 

Contrary to my own expectations the Quintana & Frisch isn't all that special, mainly on account of Quintana. See my earlier comments HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1081.msg114350/topicseen.html#msg114350).

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 18, 2010, 01:57:34 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 18, 2010, 12:56:37 PM
Spanyi, you are one fussy guy; I can only repeat that I found Spanyi's tangent piano highly attractive, while the Wispelwey (except for the additional pieces played) is a throw-away due to his penchant for weak articulation and phrasing.

Concerning Mason/Pinnock, I have that recording and it's mighty fine.  Still, I prefer the Frisch on Harmonia Mundi.

Don, Q, Scarpia & Stuart - thanks for your comments; believe that I will still obtain the Spanyi - I really enjoy him on the 'tangent piano' on other recordings that I own, so this CD would be a nice contrast to own vs. the other combinations.

Now the Wispelwey disc sounds quite interesting but was pretty much 'panned' by Don - assume that he still stands by his original thoughts?  Now seems like some 'fisticuffs' between Don & Q on the Fisch offering, and Stuart & Scarpia on the Pinnock!  So, still uncertain about another 'viola da gamba/harpsichord' combination?

Now to change the instruments used, if I decide to dumped my Maisky-Argerich cello/piano disc, are there other combos on these works worth consideration?  Thanks again - Dave  :D
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 18, 2010, 02:31:09 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 18, 2010, 01:57:34 PM
Now the Wispelwey disc sounds quite interesting but was pretty much 'panned' by Don - assume that he still stands by his original thoughts?

Be brave, SonicMan! You will love that recording.  :)

Anyway, if you want another version on harpsichord/viola da gamba (in this case "lute-harpsichord"/gamba) this one is just superb:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4011222322722.jpg)

(http://ekkehardweber.de/Resources/bach.jpeg)

:)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on April 18, 2010, 02:37:32 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 18, 2010, 02:31:09 PM
Be brave, SonicMan! You will love that recording.  :)

Anyway, if you want another version on harpsichord/viola da gamba (in this case "lute-harpsichord"/gamba) this one is just superb:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4011222322722.jpg)

(http://ekkehardweber.de/Resources/bach.jpeg)

:)

Excellent recommendation! :) Nice to see it reissued. I made the same some time ago (see previously linked post), and if I'm correct Dave already got that one. ;D

I agree with Don on Wispelwey BTW.

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Coopmv on April 18, 2010, 02:56:33 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 18, 2010, 01:57:34 PM
Now to change the instruments used, if I decide to dumped my Maisky-Argerich cello/piano disc, are there other combos on these works worth consideration?  Thanks again - Dave  :D

Dave,  Let me know if you find another piano/cello combo on this Bach Sonatas for Viola da Gamba.  It think the Argerich/Maisky CD may be the only one of its kind ...
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 18, 2010, 03:16:05 PM
Quote from: Que on April 18, 2010, 02:37:32 PM
Excellent recommendation! :) Nice to see it reissued. I made the same some time ago (see previously linked post), and if I'm correct Dave already got that one. ;D

I agree with Don on Wispelwey BTW.

Antoine, Q, & Stuart - thanks for the further input on the Bach Viola da Gamba + Keyboard Sonatas -  :D

I believe that Don & Q have talked me out of the Wispelwey purchase!  :-\

Antoine's suggestion of Hill using a 'lute harpsichord' interests me and a great option for me - love variety in interpretation of these works, esp. if the instruments seem to still 'fit into' the time period - need to do some searching for this work - not sure 'how available' it is for me at a good price?

Stuart - I was looking for some more cello-piano combinations - believe there is at least a Hewitt option, but not sure about others w/o further searching - might be 'slim pickings'?  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 18, 2010, 03:26:10 PM
Quote from: Que on April 18, 2010, 02:37:32 PM
I agree with Don on Wispelwey BTW.

Well, to a certain extent, me too. Let's me explain: When I commented this version for the first time some days ago, I pointed out that it was a slightly romanticized version; but Dave loves Argerich/Maisky, therefore, I supposed that this was not a problem. Additionally, considering that these are late works (not works from the Cöthen period, as it was thought during many years) and, apparently, composed during the years of J.A. Scheibe's critique, I don't necessarily consider a slight under-articulation like a mistake... But without any doubt it is not a totally orthodox version and the same instruments used are a clue about this; but I like its "cantabile" character. BTW, Richard Egarr is a part of this recording, is it just a coincidence?  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bulldog on April 18, 2010, 03:52:36 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 18, 2010, 01:57:34 PM

Now to change the instruments used, if I decide to dumped my Maisky-Argerich cello/piano disc, are there other combos on these works worth consideration?  Thanks again - Dave  :D

I'm familiar with a viola/piano combo on the Quartz label; Yuko Inoue on viola, Kathron Sturrock on piano.  It's actually a very enjoyable disc; my sole complaint, and a major one, is that Sturrock tends to support the viola.  This greatly reduces the impact of the dialogue. 

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bulldog on April 18, 2010, 04:02:11 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 18, 2010, 02:31:09 PM
Be brave, SonicMan! You will love that recording.  :)

Anyway, if you want another version on harpsichord/viola da gamba (in this case "lute-harpsichord"/gamba) this one is just superb:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4011222322722.jpg)

(http://ekkehardweber.de/Resources/bach.jpeg)

:)

I don't own the Hill disc, but I found out about an hour ago that it is on the Naxos Music Library.  So I've been listening to it and finding it exceptional.  Hill's lute-harpsichord sounds delightful with a subtle sparkle.  The voice interaction is great with fine balance.

Dave - You need to add this one to your "high priority" list.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bulldog on April 18, 2010, 04:06:47 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 18, 2010, 03:26:10 PM
Well, to a certain extent, me too. Let's me explain: When I commented this version for the first time some days ago, I pointed out that it was a slightly romanticized version; but Dave loves Argerich/Maisky, therefore, I supposed that this was not a problem. Additionally, considering that these are late works (not works from the Cöthen period, as it was thought during many years) and, apparently, composed during the years of J.A. Scheibe's critique, I don't necessarily consider a slight under-articulation like a mistake... But without any doubt it is not a totally orthodox version and the same instruments used are a clue about this; but I like its "cantabile" character. BTW, Richard Egarr is a part of this recording, is it just a coincidence?  :)

Egarr's a funny guy.  In his Goldbergs, his big priority is "cantabile heaven".  Switch to his WTC 1 and he seems to have abandoned that notion completely (that's good). 
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Scarpia on April 18, 2010, 04:07:11 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 18, 2010, 02:56:33 PM
Dave,  Let me know if you find another piano/cello combo on this Bach Sonatas for Viola da Gamba.  It think the Argerich/Maisky CD may be the only one of its kind ...

There are the Starker/Sebok recordings on Mercury Living Presence.  A much much better cellist, a better pianist and a better recording.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Scarpia on April 18, 2010, 04:08:32 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 18, 2010, 03:26:10 PM
Well, to a certain extent, me too. Let's me explain: When I commented this version for the first time some days ago, I pointed out that it was a slightly romanticized version; but Dave loves Argerich/Maisky, therefore, I supposed that this was not a problem. Additionally, considering that these are late works (not works from the Cöthen period, as it was thought during many years) and, apparently, composed during the years of J.A. Scheibe's critique, I don't necessarily consider a slight under-articulation like a mistake... But without any doubt it is not a totally orthodox version and the same instruments used are a clue about this; but I like its "cantabile" character. BTW, Richard Egarr is a part of this recording, is it just a coincidence?  :)

I don't see any reason to apologize for enjoying these wonderful recordings.   8)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Coopmv on April 18, 2010, 04:09:22 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 18, 2010, 03:16:05 PM

Stuart - I was looking for some more cello-piano combinations - believe there is at least a Hewitt option, but not sure about others w/o further searching - might be 'slim pickings'?  Dave  :D

If there is a Hewitt option, I no doubt missed it.  I probably have most if not all her Bach keyboard works, including some on DG besides her usual Hyperion recordings ...
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Coopmv on April 18, 2010, 04:11:15 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 18, 2010, 04:07:11 PM
There are the Starker/Sebok recordings on Mercury Living Presence.  A much much better cellist, a better pianist and a better recording.

I can believe a better cellist than Maisky, but a better pianist than Argerich?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Scarpia on April 18, 2010, 04:12:30 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 18, 2010, 04:09:22 PM
If there is a Hewitt option, I no doubt missed it.  I probably have most if not all her Bach keyboard works, including some on DG besides her usual Hyperion recordings ...

I had that recording and it was dreadful.  It was with a German cellist on a German label, and half the booklet was about how Hewlett was a decent Bach player even though she wasn't German.  For good measure they jacked up the gain on the cellist's microphone so the piano was all but drowned out.   Nothing beats Starker for the cello/piano approach.

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Scarpia on April 18, 2010, 04:12:56 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 18, 2010, 04:11:15 PM
I can believe a better cellist than Maisky, but a better pianist than Argerich?

She is good at some things, not Bach.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 18, 2010, 04:26:03 PM
Quote from: Scarpia on April 18, 2010, 04:08:32 PM
I don't see any reason to apologize for enjoying these wonderful recordings.   8)

You have misunderstood my reply, Scarpia. It wasn't an apology at all. Just an explanation about why, IMO, the criticism of under-articulation is, even historically, debatable. Like you, I love that recording and totally enjoy its delightful cantabile character.  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: kishnevi on April 18, 2010, 07:06:11 PM
Quote from: Coopmv on April 18, 2010, 02:56:33 PM
Dave,  Let me know if you find another piano/cello combo on this Bach Sonatas for Viola da Gamba.  It think the Argerich/Maisky CD may be the only one of its kind ...

Yo Yo Ma did a half-HIP version, with Kenneth Cooper on harpsichord.
Please note I am merely noting its existence;  I prefer the Savall/Koopman recording (which has now been re-issued by Virgin on its budget "Premium" series.)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Coopmv on April 18, 2010, 07:20:38 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on April 18, 2010, 07:06:11 PM
Yo Yo Ma did a half-HIP version, with Kenneth Cooper on harpsichord.
Please note I am merely noting its existence;  I prefer the Savall/Koopman recording (which has now been re-issued by Virgin on its budget "Premium" series.)

I have at least a half dozen version of this work, mostly on harpsichord.  The issue here is getting a better version that was performed on piano than the Argerich/Maisky version.  It appears this version is still forthcoming ...
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 18, 2010, 08:02:46 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on April 18, 2010, 07:06:11 PM
I prefer the Savall/Koopman recording (which has now been re-issued by Virgin on its budget "Premium" series.)

It should be noticed that Savall/Koopman have recorded twice the Gamba Sonatas:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5099968462925.jpg)

This is the first version from 1977, now re-issued by Virgin (ADD).

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/7619986098128.jpg)

And this is the latter on Alia Vox (2000), Savall's own label.

IIRC, the first version had some problems of sound quality, with an enormous separation between the instruments. I don't know if that feature can be improved. 

:)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: kishnevi on April 18, 2010, 08:38:49 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 18, 2010, 08:02:46 PM
It should be noticed that Savall/Koopman have recorded twice the Gamba Sonatas:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5099968462925.jpg)

This is the first version from 1977, now re-issued by Virgin (ADD).

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/7619986098128.jpg)

And this is the latter on Alia Vox (2000), Savall's own label.

IIRC, the first version had some problems of sound quality, with an enormous separation between the instruments. I don't know if that feature can be improved. 

:)

I didn't realize they recorded the works twice, so I assumed that Savall had licensed the recording--

I just did a quick spot check of the Virgin recording (the one I have).  The viola da gamba does sound more prominent, as if the mike were placed much closer to Savall than Koopman--but to my ears, the difference does not detract from the music.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on April 18, 2010, 10:00:33 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 18, 2010, 04:02:11 PM
I don't own the Hill disc, but I found out about an hour ago that it is on the Naxos Music Library.  So I've been listening to it and finding it exceptional.  Hill's lute-harpsichord sounds delightful with a subtle sparkle.  The voice interaction is great with fine balance.

Dave - You need to add this one to your "high priority" list.

Seconded (or thirded)!  :) The lute-harpsichord works very well in this pieces, and it adds a distinct and different flavour to what is available otherwise. I presumed you already had this Dave, but now is as good a time to get it. ;)

I never heard a version with piano that worked musically BTW.

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 19, 2010, 06:51:32 AM
Quote from: Bulldog on April 18, 2010, 04:02:11 PM
I don't own the Hill disc, but I found out about an hour ago that it is on the Naxos Music Library.  So I've been listening to it and finding it exceptional.  Hill's lute-harpsichord sounds delightful with a subtle sparkle.  The voice interaction is great with fine balance.

Dave - You need to add this one to your "high priority" list.

Guys - the Hill-Weber disc seems to be getting 'universal' support, and yet another approach, i.e. lute harpsichord - I own a double-CD of Hill on this instrument playing Bach (on the Hanssler label) - love the sound, so will certainly add to my 'want list'!

Not sure 'how available' a physical disc is at a good price - could find only 1 offering on the Amazon Marketplace for $70 - ouch!  MDT does not even list the disc (at least w/ my searching); Classicsonline offers MP3 downloads which I'm not into much but certainly an option - if anyone else has a source for the product, please let me know - thanks.  Dave  :)

P.S. - just found the disc at JPC for 14 Euros, or about $18 plus S/H - a little high for me but still a consideration, if I can put in a large order?  BTW - for our European colleagues, what 'impact' has this Icelandic volcano eruption had/has on cross-Atlantic air mail shipping - just curious?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on April 19, 2010, 09:36:58 AM
Quote from: Que on April 18, 2010, 10:00:33 PM

I never heard a version with piano that worked musically BTW.

What else did you expect from Bach on the piano?  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 19, 2010, 10:03:57 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on April 19, 2010, 06:51:32 AM
Guys - the Hill-Weber disc seems to be getting 'universal' support, and yet another approach, i.e. lute harpsichord - I own a double-CD of Hill on this instrument playing Bach (on the Hanssler label) - love the sound, so will certainly add to my 'want list'!

Not sure 'how available' a physical disc is at a good price - could find only 1 offering on the Amazon Marketplace for $70 - ouch!  MDT does not even list the disc (at least w/ my searching); Classicsonline offers MP3 downloads which I'm not into much but certainly an option - if anyone else has a source for the product, please let me know - thanks.  Dave  :)


Well, I couldn't wait to hear Hill on the lute harpsichord, so downloaded the disc from ClassicsOnline for $8 - burned a MP3 disc (320 kbps) and have just completed a listen on my den system - this INDEED is a wonderful recording and the keyboard instrument seems a 'mellow' match w/ the viola da gamba! Of course, no liner notes -  :-\
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 22, 2010, 12:00:54 PM
 
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 22, 2010, 05:32:14 AM
(http://bp2.blogger.com/_qVdBNWWSRX0/R_lujsTBNgI/AAAAAAAABZw/CxX_NZW1Sq4/s320/violin.jpg)

J.S. Bach - Violin Sonatas
Andrew Manze (violin)
Richard Egarr (harpsichord)
Jaap ter Linden (gamba, cello)
2 CDs
Harmonia Mundi USA

This would be beautiful without so much left hand in some sonatas.  :)

Quote from: premont on April 22, 2010, 07:51:33 AM
Right!

On the other hand I find the addition of the gamba/cello interesting.

Quote from: Que on April 22, 2010, 08:00:41 AM
I wouldn't go there - definitely a dud. ::) Manze does a distorted Bach in hyperdrive and Egarr's twitchy contribution does not help either. :o

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 22, 2010, 08:14:48 AM
I totally disagree, Q. I have some quibbles about this recording, but it's not a disaster at all. I also enjoy -and in this case I would add "very much"- the harpsichord concertos by Egarr/AAM/Manze.

Quote from: Bulldog on April 22, 2010, 08:29:36 AM
I also have little good to say about the Manze recording.  The use of the gamba distorts balance, and I find Manze to often display insufficient projection and attack.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 22, 2010, 09:01:52 AM
Yes, I recall your long review on the Bach-Cantatas site and your disfavorable opinion.

I don't share your point of view about Manze; but, as I said before, I agree about the use of the gamba/cello in those sonatas where those instruments are used.   

P.S.: BTW, as the liner notes recall, the earliest source for these works is titled Sei Suonate a Cembalo certato e Violino Solo, col Basso per Viola da Gamba accompagnato se piace (Six Sonatas for obbligato harpsichord and solo violin, with a bass accompanied by a viola da gamba if you like).

Although this conversation began with a critical post of mine, I consider unjustified to say that this recording is "definitely a dud". But, we know, tastes differ.

Two random examples to illustrate this discussion (the first one w/viola da gamba):

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=11136041-f88

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=11136089-bab

That 2-CD set includes another interesting things, for example, a Manze's reconstruction of BWV 565 for violin:

http://www.youtube.com/v/aNfox7ORW1Q

(Unfortunately the compressed file stress the reverberation)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bulldog on April 22, 2010, 01:48:36 PM
Antoine:

Although we are not in agreement, I admire your strong advocacy of the Manze version.  FWIW, I looked up the review of the disc in Fanfare and Classics Today; both reviews were highly favorable.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on April 23, 2010, 05:19:51 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 22, 2010, 12:00:54 PM
the earliest source for these works is titled Sei Suonate a Cembalo certato e Violino Solo, col Basso per Viola da Gamba accompagnato se piace (Six Sonatas for obbligato harpsichord and solo violin, with a bass accompanied by a viola da gamba if you like).

Despite this I have long had the feeling, that these Sonatas (except the G-major one) in the first hand was written with organ instead of harpsichord in mind. They are church Sonatas with four movements (slow,fast,slow,fast) and the use of organ would solve the for Bachs music unusual problem with the balance, making it unnecessary to put an "unnatural" restraint upon the most often very expressive violin part. In practice a violin blends well with the organ or rather vice-versa, and even a modern violin blends better with an organ than with a harpsichord or a piano.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2010, 12:55:54 PM
Quote from: premont on April 23, 2010, 05:19:51 AM
Despite this I have long had the feeling, that these Sonatas (except the G-major one) in the first hand was written with organ instead of harpsichord in mind. They are church Sonatas with four movements (slow,fast,slow,fast) and the use of organ would solve the for Bachs music unusual problem with the balance, making it unnecessary to put an "unnatural" restraint upon the most often very expressive violin part. In practice a violin blends well with the organ or rather vice-versa, and even a modern violin blends better with an organ than with a harpsichord or a piano.

Something weird is happening with my posts.  :(
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2010, 12:59:11 PM
Quote from: premont on April 23, 2010, 05:19:51 AM
Despite this I have long had the feeling, that these Sonatas (except the G-major one) in the first hand was written with organ instead of harpsichord in mind. They are church Sonatas with four movements (slow,fast,slow,fast) and the use of organ would solve the for Bachs music unusual problem with the balance, making it unnecessary to put an "unnatural" restraint upon the most often very expressive violin part. In practice a violin blends well with the organ or rather vice-versa, and even a modern violin blends better with an organ than with a harpsichord or a piano.

Do you know a version played on organ/violin by Gester/Pierlot?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on April 23, 2010, 01:02:35 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2010, 12:43:16 PM
The only problem is that the sources are clear about the keyboard instrument to be used.

I did not say, that violin-harpsichord scoring is "wrong" - it is after all authoritised, but I think that Bach concieved the works with the balance of the organ in mind. I have heard some of these works at recitals performed with organ, and I own a (Danish) recording of the set scored for violin and organ, and even if modern instruments were/are used, the result was/is most convincing. I think I shall upload part of this recording for you.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on April 23, 2010, 01:04:39 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2010, 12:59:11 PM
Do you know a version played on organ/violin by Gester/Pierlot?

No, I do not know it. It is Martin Gester I suppose, but who is Pierlot? And which label?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2010, 01:06:45 PM
Quote from: premont on April 23, 2010, 01:02:35 PM
I did not say, that violin-harpsichord scoring is "wrong" - it is after all authoritised, but I think that Bach concieved the works with the balance of the organ in mind. I have heard some of these works at recitals performed with organ, and I own a (Danish) recording of the set scored for violin and organ, and even if modern instruments were/are used, the result was/is most convincing. I think I shall upload part of this recording for you.

I understood perfectly your point. I lost my message when I was trying to add the previous question.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2010, 01:10:10 PM
Quote from: premont on April 23, 2010, 01:04:39 PM
No, I do not know it. It is Martin Gester I suppose, but who is Pierlot? And which label?

I can't post the cover, but is Martin Gester playing the organ (Georg Westenfelder organ at the église Saint Macre de Fere-en-Tardenois) and Alice Pierot playing the violin. It's all my info. I don't know the label.

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on April 23, 2010, 01:15:18 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2010, 01:10:10 PM
This is all my info:  :)

(http://www.answers.com/main/Record?a=AMG%20Classical%20Albums%20Shopping%Link&url=http%3A%2F%2Fanswers.shopping.com%2FxFS%3FKW%3DBach%253A%2BTrios%2B%25286%2529%2BFor%2BOrgan%2BWith%2BViolin%2BMartin%2BGester%26FN%3DMedia%26FD%3D96649%26linkin_id%3D7000800)

Alas no picture on my screen. BTW from where did you get the info?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on April 23, 2010, 01:21:10 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2010, 12:59:11 PM
Do you know a version played on organ/violin by Gester/Pierlot?

I own a recording of the Triosonatas for organ BWV 525-530 played in an arrangement by Martin Gester for different combinations of instruments. But there is as far as I remember no Pierlot there.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2010, 01:27:26 PM
Quote from: premont on April 23, 2010, 01:15:18 PM
Alas no picture on my screen. BTW from where did you get the info?

Here:

http://www.answers.com/topic/bach-trios-6-for-organ-with-violin

And here:

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/BWV1014-1023-Gen2.htm
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on April 23, 2010, 01:27:58 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2010, 12:55:54 PM
Something weird is happening with my posts.  :(

I have experienced several times recently, that my post could not be posted, - I got an error report, and the post was lost. Yesterday evening rather late I had written a long post about the violin-harpsichord balance, which was lost, and it was too late to write all of it again.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Marc on April 23, 2010, 01:31:28 PM
Quote from: premont on April 23, 2010, 01:02:35 PM
I did not say, that violin-harpsichord scoring is "wrong" - it is after all authoritised, but I think that Bach concieved the works with the balance of the organ in mind.
No, he didn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2010, 12:59:11 PM
Do you know a version played on organ/violin by Gester/Pierlot?
Bach played by a Jester and a Pierrot?
Sounds interesting.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2010, 01:33:18 PM
Quote from: premont on April 23, 2010, 01:21:10 PM
...as far as I remember no Pierlot there.

I wrote "Pierlot", but it is "Pierot", Alice Pierot.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Marc on April 23, 2010, 01:34:31 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2010, 01:33:18 PM
I wrote "Pierlot", but it is "Pierot", Alice Pierot.
BINGO!
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on April 23, 2010, 01:45:06 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 23, 2010, 01:33:18 PM
I wrote "Pierlot", but it is "Pierot", Alice Pierot.

From the Bach cantatas site:

Alice Pierot plays the violin, and Martin Gester the Georg Westenfelder organ at the église Saint Macre de Fere-en-Tardenois.

I doubt if it is still available, but it is Accord ( l'Aisne - Radio France) 205322 MU 744. It ws recorded in 1993.


These Accord releases have always been difficult to get hold of.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Marc on April 23, 2010, 01:52:39 PM
Quote from: premont on April 23, 2010, 01:45:06 PM
[....]
I doubt if it is still available, but it is Accord ( l'Aisne - Radio France) 205322 MU 744. It ws recorded in 1993.[/i]

These Accord releases have always been difficult to get hold of.
I checked the central Dutch library (one never knows, something could be arranged for Ton), but no: some Gester discs, but not this combination. :'(
Sorry.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on April 23, 2010, 02:11:53 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 23, 2010, 01:52:39 PM
I checked the central Dutch library (one never knows, something could be arranged for Ton), but no: some Gester discs, but not this combination. :'(
Sorry.

Thanks for your efforts.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 07, 2010, 04:47:52 PM
JEEZ! I've not responded in such a long time -  but maybe not w/ some of these treads?  ;D

Well, I'm expanding my Bach Gamba Sonatas up to four recordings now by adding the two pictured below - a 'tangent piano' version and one w/ the expected 'gamba + harpsichord' - these are both wonderful additions - thanks again for the recommendations!  :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachGambaSonsSpanyi/859986725_ftDpf-O.jpg)  (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachGambaSonsFrisch/859986708_b2pWd-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: kishnevi on May 07, 2010, 06:11:06 PM
Quote from: SonicMan on May 07, 2010, 04:47:52 PM
JEEZ! I've not responded in such a long time -  but maybe not w/ some of these treads?  ;D

Well, I'm expanding my Bach Gamba Sonatas up to four recordings now by adding the two pictured below - a 'tangent piano' version and one w/ the expected 'gamba + harpsichord' - these are both wonderful additions - thanks again for the recommendations!  :)


What precisely is a tangent piano? 

[Mental image of a piano suspended at a 45 degree angle]
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: 71 dB on May 07, 2010, 10:54:24 PM
Quote from: kishnevi on May 07, 2010, 06:11:06 PM
What precisely is a tangent piano? 

[Mental image of a piano suspended at a 45 degree angle]

Simply an "early piano", what they had in mid 18th century.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Marc on May 08, 2010, 02:06:53 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on May 07, 2010, 06:11:06 PM
What precisely is a tangent piano? 

[Mental image of a piano suspended at a 45 degree angle]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangent_piano
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 08, 2010, 05:59:55 AM
Quote from: kishnevi on May 07, 2010, 06:11:06 PM
What precisely is a tangent piano? 

[Mental image of a piano suspended at a 45 degree angle]

In addition to the link provided, check out my post (and subsequent responses), #88 in the Old Musical Instruments Thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11638.msg410124.html#msg410124) - Miklos Spanyi seems to be devoting his career to this instrument which sounds like a cross between a harpsichord/fortepiano - quite nice (to my ears!); Spanyi's most ambitious project seems to be recording the complete solo & orchestral works of CPE Bach on this instrument (on BIS) - believe he has 3 dozen or more CDs by now - Que has been commenting on these discs for a while; I've not obtained any yet - maybe waiting for a 'non-existent' box to be offered?   ;D
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 09, 2010, 08:28:49 AM
Sonatas Violin & Harpsichord w/ Florence Malgoire & Blandine Rannou - well this is my 4th set of these works, all w/ harpsichord; others are Wallfisch-Nicholson, Mullova-Dantone, & Grumiaux-Jaccottet - these latter have additional performers; is there a good lute harpsichord version out there?  Other options & combination of different instruments? Just curious -  :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/BachViolinSonsRannou/860507214_UAhLt-O.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: jlaurson on May 26, 2010, 04:47:27 AM




Busy listening to the Cello Suites:


Bach Suites Shouldered (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2040)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2040 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2040)

Bach Cello Suites (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/05/bach-cello-suites.html)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/05/bach-cello-suites.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/05/bach-cello-suites.html)


In 1713, the viola pomposa was what all the cool kids played...
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 26, 2010, 06:24:26 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 26, 2010, 04:47:27 AM



Busy listening to the Cello Suites:


Bach Suites Shouldered (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2040)

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2040 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2040)


In 1713, the viola pomposa was what all the cool kids played...


"That likely makes Kuijken the first performer to record both the Sonatas & Partitas for Solo Violin and the Cello Suites".

That assumption is probably true, Jens. Ryo Terakado has also recorded both of them on Denon and his Cello Suites were released on disc several months before than Kuijken; but, apparently, Sigiswald recorded his own discs before Terakado.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: jlaurson on May 26, 2010, 06:44:03 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 26, 2010, 06:24:26 AM
"That likely makes Kuijken the first performer to record both the Sonatas & Partitas for Solo Violin and the Cello Suites".

That assumption is probably true, Jens. Ryo Terakado has also recorded both of them on Denon and his Cello Suites were released on disc several months before than Kuijken; but, apparently, Sigiswald recorded his own discs before Terakado.

Has Terakado then recorded BWV 1001 through 10019??
I can't find 1008-1013. Also for MS/Denon?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 26, 2010, 06:56:23 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on May 26, 2010, 06:44:03 AM
Has Terakado then recorded BWV 1001 through 10019??
I can't find 1008-1013. Also for MS/Denon?

Yes.

Here BWV 1007-1012 (BWV 1013 is the partita for solo flute): http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=COGQ-32

... and here the violin/harpsichord sonatas with Siebe Henstra: http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=COCQ-84184

... and the sonatas & partitas for solo violin: http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=COCQ-84182

:)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 31, 2010, 06:58:11 AM
New Brandenburgs by Sigiswald and La Petite Bande:


(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4015023242241.jpg)


For sure, this set will include the use of the violoncello da spalla, like here:


(http://www2.odn.ne.jp/~cco69970/index.html/fukuoka10/fig2/IMG_9005-.jpg)



(http://www2.odn.ne.jp/~cco69970/index.html/fukuoka10/fig3/IMG_9095-.jpg)

8)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on July 31, 2010, 07:44:08 AM
Yes, and brass without valves or fingerholes. Like the instruments used in Suzuki´s second recording. Maybe even the soloists are identical - at least the pictures show a Japanese preponderance in the ensemble.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 31, 2010, 08:47:17 AM
Quote from: premont on July 31, 2010, 07:44:08 AM
Yes, and brass without valves or fingerholes. Like the instruments used in Suzuki´s second recording. Maybe even the soloists are identical - at least the pictures show a Japanese preponderance in the ensemble.

Just a clarification to my earlier message: I don't know if those pictures have any relation with the new recording of the Brandenburgs; in fact, those pictures were taken during the live performances of concertos 4 and 5 in the Early Music Festival in Fukuoka 2008. But clearly reflect the current ideas of Kuijken on those concerti.

BTW, this is a nice picture of the performance of Overture (Orchestral Suite) No.3 in D major BWV1068, especially for the brasses:

(http://www2.odn.ne.jp/~cco69970/index.html/fukuoka10/fig2/IMG_9065-.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: PaulSC on January 21, 2011, 09:26:27 PM
Lots of praise for Ingrid Matthews' beautiful recording of the solo Sonatas and Partitas, but I wonder if her performances of the Harpsichord/Violin Sonatas BWV 1014-1019 have been overlooked. She's equally masterful in the latter, Byron Schenkman is an able partner (though sadly the partnership has since dissolved and he's pursuing modern piano performance exclusively), their instruments are well matched, and the recorded sound is very good.

(http://images.cdbaby.name/i/n/ingridbyron.jpg)

One of my favorite traversals of the set, alongside Van Dael/Van Asperen, Podger/Pinnock, and Kuijken/Leonhardt. (There are several others I still need to hear, notably Biondi/Alessandrini...)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 06:19:39 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on January 21, 2011, 09:26:27 PM
Lots of praise for Ingrid Matthews' beautiful recording of the solo Sonatas and Partitas, but I wonder if her performances of the Harpsichord/Violin Sonatas BWV 1014-1019 have been overlooked. She's equally masterful in the latter, Byron Schenkman is an able partner (though sadly the partnership has since dissolved and he's pursuing modern piano performance exclusively), their instruments are well matched, and the recorded sound is very good.

(http://images.cdbaby.name/i/n/ingridbyron.jpg)

One of my favorite traversals of the set, alongside Van Dael/Van Asperen, Podger/Pinnock, and Kuijken/Leonhardt. (There are several others I still need to hear, notably Biondi/Alessandrini...)

Was this a download from Magnatune or physical CDs??
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 22, 2011, 06:21:45 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on January 21, 2011, 09:26:27 PM
Lots of praise for Ingrid Matthews' beautiful recording of the solo Sonatas and Partitas, but I wonder if her performances of the Harpsichord/Violin Sonatas BWV 1014-1019 have been overlooked. She's equally masterful in the latter, Byron Schenkman is an able partner (though sadly the partnership has since dissolved and he's pursuing modern piano performance exclusively), their instruments are well matched, and the recorded sound is very good.

(http://images.cdbaby.name/i/n/ingridbyron.jpg)

One of my favorite traversals of the set, alongside Van Dael/Van Asperen, Podger/Pinnock, and Kuijken/Leonhardt. (There are several others I still need to hear, notably Biondi/Alessandrini...)

Paul - thanks for the comments on Ingrid Matthews - she grew up in my home town of Winston-Salem, NC, where she attended the high school of the NC School of the Arts (where her parents taught) - for a while she was bringing a chamber concert series to town which was held at the historic Reynolda House (RJ Reynolds estate - now a small museum).  I kind of stopped following her career but am quite impressed w/ what she has done - I definitely need to acquire some of her recordings now!  Dave  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 06:32:02 AM
Well, I'm also interested in your reply, Paul:

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 04:51:43 AM
Did you buy this 2-CD set on Magnatune, Paul? I would like if it exists like a regular CDs (pressed CD, booklet, etc.).  :)

BTW, have anyone listened to the 2-CD set by Maya Homburger and Malcolm Proud, recorded on Maya's own label?

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Homburger-M-H01a%5BMaya-CD%5D.jpg)

I just have heard some short samples, but it sounds extremely interesting; although, unfortunately, it is also rather expensive.

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 06:34:57 AM
Yesterday I listened to Midori Seiler´s newly released recording (for Berlin Classics)  of the three Partitas for violin. To mention the good things first the Guarneri (without further specification) she uses sounds very beautiful and is recorded in suitably dry acoustics. Her vibratoless tone adds to the general impression of beauty. But the interpretation is ultrainterventionalistic with willful agogics and an use of dynamic variation which may be called ultraromantic at best and casual at worst. The Sonatas are probably to follow, but I think I shall let them pass, despite my completist attitude in these matters.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 06:50:16 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 06:34:57 AM
Yesterday I listened to Midori Seiler´s newly released recording (for Berlin Classics)  of the three Partitas for violin. To mention the good things first the Guarneri (without further specification) she uses sounds very beautiful and is recorded in suitably dry acoustics. Her vibratoless tone adds to the general impression of beauty. But the interpretation is ultrainterventionalistic with willful agogics and an use of dynamic variation which may be called ultraromantic at best and casual at worst. The Sonatas are probably to follow, but I think I shall let them pass, despite my completist attitude in these matters.

It's good to know your opinion about Seiler's recording, as an antidote against my own incipient completism.  ;D

Anyway, as a matter of fact Seiler occupies one of the last posts among my preferred female Baroque violinists, after van Dael, Wallfish, Podger, Huggett, Schmidt, Glodeanu, now Matthews and a long etcetera.  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 22, 2011, 06:52:37 AM
Since Paul's reminder about the violinist, Ingrid Matthews, my interest was peeked to acquire some of the recordings of this hometown gal!  :D

She has a website HERE (http://www.ingridmatthews.com/) w/ a discography section (much more impressive than I recall!) - an early recording (small image below - sorry) of the Bach Sonatas & Partitas for solo violin gleamed an outstanding summary comment from a review in the American Record Guide - shown below and from the site - has anyone heard these recordings?  If so, how does she compare to the competition (I currently own Szeryng, Podger, & Mullova)?  Thanks -  :)

QuoteThis superb recording is now my top recommendation for a period-instrument set of this music...In fact, after listening to the set again since writing the previous three sentences, I would say that this is my favorite complete set of these works on either period or modern instruments. This is one of those sets that I can hardly bring myself to remove from my CD player." —American Record Guide

(http://www.ingridmatthews.com/music/images/disc-ingrid-bach-variations.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 06:54:50 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 06:50:16 AM
It's good to know your opinion about Seiler's recording, as an antidote against my own incipient completism.  ;D

Yes, we have to prevent the symptoms of CDCDCD whenever and wherever we can.  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 06:56:02 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 06:32:02 AM
BTW, have anyone listened to the 2-CD set by Maya Homburger and Malcolm Proud, recorded on Maya's own label?

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Homburger-M-H01a%5BMaya-CD%5D.jpg)


Not yet, it is on my wish list - CDCDCD you know.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 07:01:01 AM
Quote from: SonicMan on January 22, 2011, 06:52:37 AM
- has anyone heard these recordings?  (http://www.ingridmatthews.com/music/images/disc-ingrid-bach-variations.jpg)

I have advocated for her S & P´s several times in this forum.
Se reply 89 in this very thread.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Scarpia on January 22, 2011, 07:01:12 AM
My lord, where do you find these recordings?  There must be recording studios running around the clock making more recordings of the Bach Violin sonatas for you to buy.   ;D
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 07:02:25 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 06:56:02 AM
Not yet, it is on my wish list - CDCDCD you know.

Well, in my case the symptoms are especially intense when these recordings are released by small labels because you never know if they will be available again when go out print.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 07:04:11 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 07:01:01 AM
I have advocated for her S & P´s several times in this forum.
Se reply 89 in this very thread.

I recall it clearly, even she occupied the post of Podger in your preferences.  :) 
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 07:13:02 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 22, 2011, 07:01:12 AM
My lord, where do you find these recordings?  There must be recording studios running around the clock making more recordings of the Bach Violin sonatas for you to buy.   ;D

One can not own too many worthwile recordings of these works.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Scarpia on January 22, 2011, 07:19:39 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 07:13:02 AM
One can not own too many worthwile recordings of these works.

One can't own too many but I think one can own enough!   ;D
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 07:32:22 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on January 22, 2011, 07:19:39 AM
One can't own too many but I think one can own enough!   ;D

It seems as if we differ in this question.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: PaulSC on January 22, 2011, 08:28:09 AM
Quote from: premont on January 22, 2011, 06:19:39 AM
Was this [Matthews/Schenkman Vn/Hpscd Sonatas] a download from Magnatune or physical CDs??
I purchased as an iTunes download, but physical CDs can be had from CDBaby (http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ingridbyron). (But iTunes beats CDBaby's download price.)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: PaulSC on January 22, 2011, 08:33:06 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 06:32:02 AM
Well, I'm also interested in your reply, Paul:

BTW, have anyone listened to the 2-CD set by Maya Homburger and Malcolm Proud, recorded on Maya's own label?

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Homburger-M-H01a%5BMaya-CD%5D.jpg)

I just have heard some short samples, but it sounds extremely interesting; although, unfortunately, it is also rather expensive.
This is on my wishlist. Their tempos are often a bit on the slow side, but they still have plenty of energy, and lightness when it's needed. (Or that's my impression based on samples...)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 22, 2011, 08:51:19 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on January 22, 2011, 08:28:09 AM
I purchased as an iTunes download, but physical CDs can be had from CDBaby (http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ingridbyron). (But iTunes beats CDBaby's download price.)

Gret tip, Paul! Thank you very much.  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on January 22, 2011, 10:49:02 AM
Quote from: Coopmv on January 22, 2011, 10:20:31 AM
We clearly have very different priorities.  I see no reason to own more than 10 versions of Bach Complete Organ Works, though I am closing in on 20 versions of SMP ...

You are right, with only 22 versions of the SMP I need to pay more attention to this work.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: PaulSC on January 23, 2011, 01:31:23 PM
So there's this church, Notre-Dame des Neiges on l'Alpe d'Huez. Gorgeous modern architecture if you like that sort of thing. Which I do.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2543/4343648786_b484dbc2d0.jpg)

The organ is by Jean Guillou, 1978.

(http://www.takaji.ca/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/alpe-d-huez-2009F1883_2.jpg)
(http://www.takaji.ca/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/alpe-d-huez-2009F1910_2.jpg)

And a certain Emilia Baranowska (cello) and Jean-Paul Imbert (organ) recorded a Bach program there, including the three gamba sonatas and the first solo cello suite.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/8716114017422.jpg)

Luckily I thought to preview before purchasing (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Cellosonaten-BWV-1027-1029/hnum/4495981).

It's truly awful.

Tempos are slower than slow, the two performers are regularly a quarter-tone off pitch from each other.

How did this get released? Maybe they were as seduced by the setting and the repertoire as I nearly was.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Opus106 on March 05, 2011, 05:42:20 AM
Re: their MO, I'm curious to know if the Kuijken Bros. had a reason to use a violin and harpsichord, when Bach specifically has titled it Canon 2 a 2 Violini in unisono? (You can listen to the track here (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Brandenburgische-Konzerte-Nr-1-6/hnum/4986485).)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 05, 2011, 08:42:16 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 05, 2011, 05:42:20 AM
Re: their MO, I'm curious to know if the Kuijken Bros. had a reason to use a violin and harpsichord, when Bach specifically has titled it Canon 2 a 2 Violini in unisono? (You can listen to the track here (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Brandenburgische-Konzerte-Nr-1-6/hnum/4986485).)

It's explained in the liner notes of the original release, dear Navneeth (I had the same doubt some years ago because that canon is one of my favorites):

QuoteIt has often been doubted whether Bach ever planned the Musical Offering to be performed in full. The complex canons, in particular, are frequently regarded as mere theoretical demonstrations of the composer's art. Apart from the musical value found in these pieces no less than in the rest of the work, most of the canons feature performance and phrasing marks (trills, slurs, ties and dotting), and scoring is also specified for two of the canons [nos. 4 and 16 in this recording]. The instrumentation chosen for the individual canons poses no great problem if the instruments Bach specifies are taken as a starting-point: in the trio sonata and canon perpetuus [no. 16] that follows it, Bach expressly calls for flute, violin and continuo (the latter consisting of the harpsichord and probably a cello or viola da gamba as well). It turns out that all the canons can be performed with these four instruments, and further pointers are provided by the key and the range of the part. For one canon, the addition of a second violin is in fact a misinterpretation of the heading: the first edition gives the title as "Canon a 2 Violin: in Unisono". This is often understood to mean a canon for two violins, both of which enter on the same note -the colon after the word "violin" being taken either as a misprint for an "i", or as an abbreviation for the same letter, in both cases producing the plural form "violini". But all likelihood, the words need to be grouped differently, reading "Canon a 2: Violin in Unisono", meaning a two-part canon (just as the other canons are "a 2" or "a 4"), with a violin playing the second part of the canon, and entering on the same note as the first part. The first part of the canon is played by the treble line in the harpsichord, since both the flute and the viola da gamba/cello are out of the question for reasons of texture. The position of this canon within the group suggests that the instrumentation of the canons that follow it is intended to follow the same principle, i. e. the harpsichord plays two parts, while the third is given to one of the other instruments, according to register. (For the fuga canonica [no. 8], we even have written evidence of this from pen of C.P.E. Bach.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Opus106 on March 05, 2011, 09:18:20 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 05, 2011, 08:42:16 AM
It's explained in the liner notes of the original release, dear Navneeth (I had the same doubt some years ago because that canon is one of my favorites):

Thank you so much, Antoine. :) An interesting suggestion from Kuijken. It is one of my favourite canons from the lot too, and I find the interplay between the violins to be deliciously beautiful. And listening to the sample, the interpretation sounded a bit jarring.

I wonder if the track on CD cover is listed as Canon 2 a 2 Violini in unisono, which, if I'm not mistaken, explicitly describes the use of two violins.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 05, 2011, 09:30:12 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 05, 2011, 09:18:20 AM
It is one of my favourite canons from the lot too, and I find the interplay between the violins to be deliciously beautiful. And listening to the sample, the interpretation sounded a bit jarring.

Same opinion here. If those two violins are not authentic, they should be. Anyway, that performance by the Kuijkens is simply outstanding and a must-have.  :)

Quote from: Opus106 on March 05, 2011, 09:18:20 AM
I wonder if the track on CD cover is listed as Canon 2 a 2 Violini in unisono, which, if I'm not mistaken, explicitly describes the use of two violins.

That track is listed:

"4. Canon a 2, Violin: in Unisono [0:49]"
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Opus106 on March 05, 2011, 09:35:02 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 05, 2011, 09:30:12 AM
Same opinion here. If those two violins are not authentic, they should be. Anyway, that performance by the Kuijkens is simply outstanding and a must-have.  :)

That track is listed:

"4. Canon a 2, Violin: in Unisono [0:49]"

Thanks, yet again. That box, despite its lacking those liner notes, is already on my wish-list, and I'll perhaps buy it at Presto's sale. :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on March 05, 2011, 02:11:26 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 05, 2011, 09:30:12 AM
Same opinion here. If those two violins are not authentic, they should be.
That track is listed:
"4. Canon a 2, Violin: in Unisono [0:49]"

And same opinion here. The music cries out for two violins.

In this case I do not find Kuijken´s interpretation valid.
If only one violin was meant the title should be:

Canon a 2  Violino in unisono.

The title in Ed. Peters urtext edition (Ludwig Landshoff ed.) is:

Canon 2 a 2  Violini in unisono

Maybe an "i " can be misinterpreted as a ":" , but an "o" can not..
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 05, 2011, 03:01:57 PM
Quote from: aulos on March 05, 2011, 02:11:26 PM
And same opinion here. The music cries out for two violins.

In this case I do not find Kuijken´s interpretation valid.
If only one violin was meant the title should be:

Canon a 2  Violino in unisono.

The title in Ed. Peters urtext edition (Ludwig Landshoff ed.) is:

Canon 2 a 2  Violini in unisono

Maybe an "i " can be misinterpreted as a ":" , but an "o" can not..

That argument is simply unbeatable.

You are right. "Violino", not "violin" would be the right word in the context of the Musical Offering.

I have checked out the remaining tracks of Kuijken's disc and the trio sonata is titled "Sonata sopr' il Sogetto Reale a Traversa, Violino e Continuo", and the Canon perpetuus indicates "(a Traversa, Violino e Continuo)".

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on March 05, 2011, 11:53:22 PM
Kuijken's earlier recording clearly used two violins in the canon a 2 piece referred to above.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LSb%2BVEVuL._SS400_.jpg)

Don't know what made him to think too hard  ;) the second time round.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Opus106 on March 06, 2011, 12:30:37 AM
Quote from: FideLeo on March 05, 2011, 11:53:22 PM
Kuijken's earlier recording clearly used two violins in the canon a 2 piece referred to above.

Don't know what made him to think too hard  ;) the second time round.

I don't know, perhaps Herr Leonhardt had a say in the matter. ;D
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on March 06, 2011, 02:00:58 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on March 06, 2011, 12:30:37 AM
I don't know, perhaps Herr Leonhardt had a say in the matter. ;D

I seriously wouldn't rule out that possibility.  Kuijken has done great in the da spalla rediscovery, but Leonhardt strikes me as being the better musicologist of the two.  ;)

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on March 06, 2011, 03:36:28 AM
Quote from: FideLeo on March 06, 2011, 02:00:58 AM
I seriously wouldn't rule out that possibility.  Kuijken has done great in the da spalla rediscovery, but Leonhardt strikes me as being the better musicologist of the two.  ;)

Certainly. And Leonhardt is credited as musical director of the "first" Kuijken version, so of course Leonhardt was to decide.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: FideLeo on March 09, 2011, 12:31:06 AM
/[asin]B00005B66V[/asin]

Kuijken isn't the only one thinking to use just one violin in performing BWV 1079.

Gatti also adopts the same stance towards the 'canon 2 à 2 violin: in unissono' inscription by Bach.  Correct or not, we may see more of this option taken in the future.  It must be admitted that, seeing that the music is written on two staves just like for the keyboard, it is tempting to interpret the violin part as an add-on.  After all, the word 'trio' is nowhere to be seen.  ;)

(http://www2.nau.edu/tas3/musoffcan2.gif)

http://www.youtube.com/v/zIKIKTwheCc


Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on September 12, 2011, 05:43:53 AM
Has anyone checked out this recording? I guess Cocset had something called a tenor violon alla bastarda made for this recording.
(http://image-7.verycd.com/705e3b601640ff896ce5b662fffadc7148619(600x)/thumb.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: PaulSC on September 12, 2011, 09:51:52 AM
Quote from: milk on September 12, 2011, 05:43:53 AM
Has anyone checked out this recording? I guess Cocset had something called a tenor violon alla bastarda made for this recording.
(http://image-7.verycd.com/705e3b601640ff896ce5b662fffadc7148619(600x)/thumb.jpg)
If I'm not mistaken (but I could be), the tenor violon alla bastarda is a historical instrument — a tenor viola da gamba lightly modified to permit more virtuosic performance. This is the instrument Cocset plays in the gamba sonatas. He plays them well, although he gets a bit scratchy in some fast passage-work, and I feel he's a bit too forward in the mix compared to the organ in BWV 1027. The balance is better in the other two sonatas, where Cuiller plays harpsichord. (Unhappily for me, BWV 1027 is my favorite of the sonatas by a wide margin.)

The more novel instrument on this recording is one dubbed a "viola bastarda", which Cocset plays in some of the "filler" pieces on the program. This is something of a hybrid between the older viol and the newer violin families; there is pictorial evidence for it, but no surviving historical instruments.

I have this recording (I'm a semi-completist when it comes to the Bach gamba sonatas), but I bought it as a download so I don't have the program notes. I dug up some information from George Chien's review in Fanfare 33:1. Maybe someone with notes from the recording can add to, or correct, what I said here.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on September 12, 2011, 11:32:39 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on September 12, 2011, 09:51:52 AM
If I'm not mistaken (but I could be), the tenor violon alla bastarda is a historical instrument — a tenor viola da gamba lightly modified to permit more virtuosic performance. This is the instrument Cocset plays in the gamba sonatas. He plays them well, although he gets a bit scratchy in some fast passage-work, and I feel he's a bit too forward in the mix compared to the organ in BWV 1027. The balance is better in the other two sonatas, where Cuiller plays harpsichord. (Unhappily for me, BWV 1027 is my favorite of the sonatas by a wide margin.)

The more novel instrument on this recording is one dubbed a "viola bastarda", which Cocset plays in some of the "filler" pieces on the program. This is something of a hybrid between the older viol and the newer violin families; there is pictorial evidence for it, but no surviving historical instruments.

I have this recording (I'm a semi-completist when it comes to the Bach gamba sonatas), but I bought it as a download so I don't have the program notes. I dug up some information from George Chien's review in Fanfare 33:1. Maybe someone with notes from the recording can add to, or correct, what I said here.

Thanks so much for the informative comment. I wonder if I have to get this. In the sample I listened to, It did seem like the balance was off in 1027 - as you say. I love these sonatas. I own five recordings of these including the one by Céline Frisch & Juan Manuel Quintana. Recently I got the Markus Hunninger & Paolo Pandolfo 
recording. I can see why the Pandolfo recording might not be to everyone's taste but I find it intriguing. Now I wonder if I need one more. On the samples, I like the tone of the instrument on the Gamba sonatas. But the balance...
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 12, 2011, 01:40:48 PM
Quote from: milk on September 12, 2011, 11:32:39 AM
I love these sonatas. I own five recordings of these including the one by Céline Frisch & Juan Manuel Quintana. Recently I got the Markus Hunninger & Paolo Pandolfo... Now I wonder if I need one more.

I believe you know exactly the answer in the bottom of your soul: yes, of course.  :P

Seriously, these two versions are almost mandatory:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0037SQ2MW.01_SL75_.jpg)

viola da gamba/lautenwerk

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uMlnMSQbLT8/TO7zk96IrXI/AAAAAAAAAX8/fk0j0T9P0UA/s1600/ghielmigambson1.jpg)

viola da gamba/fortepiano

:)



Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: PaulSC on September 12, 2011, 02:28:28 PM
Those recommendations look good to me, although it's hard to pick favorites from such a broad and diverse field. The Hill/Weber recording takes a bit of getting used to in my opinion; the lute-harpsichord is very bright, and Hill's long opening trill in 1027 is a bit oppressive.

Here's a recommendation, with caveats. There is a recording of the sonatas featuring what is said to be a viola bastarda! Gergely Sarkozy plays them on such an instrument (joined by Peter Ella on organ) on an album which is a bit of a circus:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ahuWis6wL._SS500_.jpg)

Sarkozy plays all the instruments named in the subtitle, and the lute harpsichord is reportedly an instrument he built himself. The performances are spirited and great fun; the music's more introspective side comes across as well, although Sarkozy the viola bastardist (?) has a rather thin and tremulous tone. This is probably out of print and/or expensive —33 GBP at Amazon UK, I see — unless you do as I did in purchase a download from the iTunes Store. Even then, it's about twenty bucks for two CDs worth of music. Anyway, something to sample and think about.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 12, 2011, 06:27:20 PM
Quote from: PaulSC on September 12, 2011, 02:28:28 PM
Those recommendations look good to me, although it's hard to pick favorites from such a broad and diverse field. The Hill/Weber recording takes a bit of getting used to in my opinion; the lute-harpsichord is very bright, and Hill's long opening trill in 1027 is a bit oppressive.
Do you mean this lute-harpsichord is bright compared to other lute-harpsichords, right? Because compared to a regular harpsichord is not bright at all.

I don't exactly know how many discs of these gamba sonatas I have, but I supposse some 13 or 14 and this Weber/Hill is one of my favorite versions. I loved since the first time when I heard it the superb blending between two gut-stringed instruments and the great balance between the performers. I don't almost see weak points in this performance.   

Quote from: PaulSC on September 12, 2011, 02:28:28 PM
Here's a recommendation, with caveats. There is a recording of the sonatas featuring what is said to be a viola bastarda! Gergely Sarkozy plays them on such an instrument (joined by Peter Ella on organ) on an album which is a bit of a circus...

It's a beautiful set, indeed. Not perfect, but intimate and with a great sense of music-making.  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on September 12, 2011, 06:43:36 PM
Quote from: toñito on September 12, 2011, 01:40:48 PM
I believe you know exactly the answer in the bottom of your soul: yes, of course.  :P

Seriously, these two versions are almost mandatory:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0037SQ2MW.01_SL75_.jpg)

viola da gamba/lautenwerk

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uMlnMSQbLT8/TO7zk96IrXI/AAAAAAAAAX8/fk0j0T9P0UA/s1600/ghielmigambson1.jpg)

viola da gamba/fortepiano

:)
I have the Hill/Weber recording. Perhaps I'll have to spend more time with it. Hmm...the Ghielmi brothers recording looks intriguing!
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 12, 2011, 07:13:21 PM
Quote from: milk on September 12, 2011, 06:43:36 PM
I have the Hill/Weber recording. Perhaps I'll have to spend more time with it. Hmm...the Ghielmi brothers recording looks intriguing!

... and quite unique regarding the keyboard. Lorenzo Ghielmi does a great work with that Silbermann copy.  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on September 13, 2011, 12:56:49 AM
Quote from: toñito on September 12, 2011, 07:13:21 PM
... and quite unique regarding the keyboard. Lorenzo Ghielmi does a great work with that Silbermann copy.  :)

Well I bought the Ghielmi. Yeah, I love it. But for some reason the Hill/Webber recording doesn't hold my attention. I like the Lautenwerk better as a solo instrument. The Ghielmi recording is a lot of fun. I really recommend the Hunninger/Pandolfo recording - there's a real feeling of spontaneity in the performances. I spend much more time with Bach's gamba sonatas than with his violin or flute sonatas. Give me gamaba! I love gamba!
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Geo Dude on January 01, 2012, 10:26:13 AM
Any thoughts on this recording?

[asin]B00000JNK8[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 03, 2012, 03:30:10 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Nov09/Bach_Yeadon_abc4763394.jpg)
(http://i43.tower.com/images/mm112067656/bach-sonatas-for-violin-keyboard-daniel-yeadon-cd-cover-art.jpg)
Any thoughts on these recordings? I'm particularly interested in the violin sonatas.
I see they vary the instruments quite a bit. But so did Daniel Yeadon, Pieter Wispelwey & Richard Egarr on their Gamba recording
and I wasn't able to get into it. Still, it looks interesting.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 02:03:47 AM
Quote from: Geo Dude on January 01, 2012, 10:26:13 AM
Any thoughts on this recording?

[asin]B00000JNK8[/asin]

IMO, this set should be avoided. Hill plays very well the harpsichord part, but even so, 2/3 of the music well served is not enough. Sitkovetsky's violin invariably sounds too bright and never gets a satisfactory blending with Hill. This set is really a weird mix, something like Leonhardt/ Lars Frydén on Teldec, where also the harpsichordist plays based on HIP parameters and the violinist is "modern" in style and uses an inappropriate dose of vibrato.  :)   
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Geo Dude on February 05, 2012, 02:33:35 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 02:03:47 AM
IMO, this set should be avoided. Hill plays very well the harpsichord part, but even so, 2/3 of the music well served is not enough. Sitkovetsky's violin invariably sounds too bright and never gets a satisfactory blending with Hill. This set is really a weird mix, something like Leonhardt/ Lars Frydén on Teldec, where also the harpsichordist plays based on HIP parameters and the violinist is "modern" in style and uses an inappropriate dose of vibrato.  :)

Thanks.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 05, 2012, 02:34:14 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 02:03:47 AM
IMO, this set should be avoided. Hill plays very well the harpsichord part, but even so, 2/3 of the music well served is not enough. Sitkovetsky's violin invariably sounds too bright and never gets a satisfactory blending with Hill. This set is really a weird mix, something like Leonhardt/ Lars Frydén on Teldec, where also the harpsichordist plays based on HIP parameters and the violinist is "modern" in style and uses an inappropriate dose of vibrato.  :)
I wonder if I should also avoid the Tognetti? Some of the notes say he used gut strings but not a baroque violin. Perhaps I should be happy
with what I have. I followed Donald Satz's advice and got the Blumenstock/Butt recoding some time ago. I also have the Podger/Pinnock. These
sets are great. I'm just always looking for something new. I also recently went back and compared the Gamba recordings I have. For a while I was championing
the Pandolfo/Hunninger recording. It has great spontaneity but I started to get annoyed by the the problem Donald Satz brought up: lack of projection. The Céline Frisch/Juan Manuel Quintana, Crum/Cummings, and Ghielmi brothers recordings are much better (although I think the harpsichord is a little too much in the background on the Frisch). I don't know if it's a healthy impulse to keep buying new stuff. I guess I'll avoid the Tognetti and Yeadon recordings unless people here think they're revelatory.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 02:54:35 AM
Quote from: milk on February 05, 2012, 02:34:14 AM
I wonder if I should also avoid the Tognetti? Some of the notes say he used gut strings but not a baroque violin. Perhaps I should be happy
with what I have. I followed Donald Satz's advice and got the Blumenstock/Butt recoding some time ago. I also have the Podger/Pinnock. These
sets are great. I'm just always looking for something new. I also recently went back and compared the Gamba recordings I have. For a while I was championing
the Pandolfo/Hunninger recording. It has great spontaneity but I started to get annoyed by the the problem Donald Satz brought up: lack of projection. The Céline Frisch/Juan Manuel Quintana, Crum/Cummings, and Ghielmi brothers recordings are much better (although I think the harpsichord is a little too much in the background on the Frisch). I don't know if it's a healthy impulse to keep buying new stuff. I guess I'll avoid the Tognetti and Yeadon recordings unless people here think they're revelatory.

Unfortunately I can't help because I don't know the ABC set. But the last three years I have added six or seven complete sets to my collection and the most satisfactory were Blandine Rannou & Florence Malgoire (Zig-Zag Territoires) and François Fernandez & Benjamin Alard (Flora). Both of them are outstanding.  :)

BTW, I agree about Butt & Blumenstock, but not regarding the gamba sonatas. I liked very much  Pandolfo & Hunninger and any day I'd prefer their performance over Quintana/Frisch. The Ghielmis are very good, but it's a sort of eccentricity (I mean by the use of a fortepiano).
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 05, 2012, 03:23:26 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 02:54:35 AM
Unfortunately I can't help because I don't know the ABC set. But the last three years I have added six or seven complete sets to my collection and the most satisfactory were Blandine Rannou & Florence Malgoire (Zig-Zag Territoires) and François Fernandez & Benjamin Alard (Flora). Both of them are outstanding.  :)

I agree completely with this. A third recent set I would like to mention is the set by Florian Deuter / Philippe Grisvard:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Sonaten-f%FCr-Violine-Cembalo-BWV-1014-1019-1021-1023/hnum/1596687

I own the Tognetti / Costa set. Even if I think the use of organ (in alas only in a few movements) is interesting, I am very underwhelmed by Tognetti.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand
The Ghielmis are very good, but it's a sort of eccentricity (I mean by the use of a fortepiano).

Eccentricity maybe, but the internal balance gains from it.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 05, 2012, 03:42:40 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 02:54:35 AM
Unfortunately I can't help because I don't know the ABC set. But the last three years I have added six or seven complete sets to my collection and the most satisfactory were Blandine Rannou & Florence Malgoire (Zig-Zag Territoires) and François Fernandez & Benjamin Alard (Flora). Both of them are outstanding.  :)

BTW, I agree about Butt & Blumenstock, but not regarding the gamba sonatas. I liked very much  Pandolfo & Hunninger and any day I'd prefer their performance over Quintana/Frisch. The Ghielmis are very good, but it's a sort of eccentricity (I mean by the use of a fortepiano).
So which is your preferred set for the Gamba? I have six sets but still feel like I could do with another one. I have to search out the Fernandez and Rannou recordings. They're not on itunes unfortunately. The Ghielmi recording is eccentric but I love it. But yeah, one can't live on that alone. Speaking of eccentric recordings, and while I have your ear so to speak, what do you think of the Csalog/Spányi Bach flute recording? I don't understand about technical matters but those are the oddest sounding flutes. And Spanyi uses fortepiano and clavichord. I really enjoy it but I also have Hantai and See/Moroney for more "mainstream" instrumentation.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 04:36:18 AM
Quote from: milk on February 05, 2012, 03:42:40 AM
So which is your preferred set for the Gamba? I have six sets but still feel like I could do with another one.
I haven't done a recounting, but I think I currently have some 19 viola da gamba sets. And some of my favorites are Webber/Hill (I have read you have had some problems with them), Kuijken/Leonhardt, Savall/Koopman (second take), Perkola/Hakkinen, the aforementioned Ghielmis... The last version I purchased was Luolajan-Mikkola/Spányi (tangent piano, Bis); but I was not very impressed after two listenings.

Quote from: milk on February 05, 2012, 03:42:40 AM
I have to search out the Fernandez and Rannou recordings. They're not on itunes unfortunately.
Yes, those two sets are, IMO, a sure shot. Just for the record: last year I bought two sets that I suppossed would be great, but I was slightly disappointed: Ingrid Matthews/Byron Schenkman & Maya Homburger/Malcolm Proud. To make this clear, are fine sets, but not great.

Quote from: milk on February 05, 2012, 03:42:40 AM
Speaking of eccentric. The Ghielmi recording is eccentric but I love it.
Me too, it's a lovely recording.

Quote from: milk on February 05, 2012, 03:42:40 AM
... what do you think of the Csalog/Spányi Bach flute recording? I don't understand about technical matters but those are the oddest sounding flutes. And Spanyi uses fortepiano and clavichord. I really enjoy it but I also have Hantai and See/Moroney for more "mainstream" instrumentation.

I see we are doing some similar researches. I am also very interested in Csalog/Spányi; it looks quite unique.

I also have Hantaï and See. Hantaï was the first recording of these flute sonatas I had played on period intrument and still today it's one of my very favorites. Very high also rank Barthold Kujiken (DHM complete set, including the dubious sonatas) and Stephen Preston (licensed by Brilliant).  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 05, 2012, 04:45:28 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 04:36:18 AM
I haven't done a recounting, but I think I currently have some 19 viola da gamba sets. And some of my favorites are Webber/Hill (I have read you have had some problems with them), Kuijken/Leonhardt, Savall/Koopman (second take), Perkola/Hakkinen, the aforementioned Ghielmis... The last version I purchased was Luolajan-Mikkola/Spányi (tangent piano, Bis); but I was not very impressed after two listenings.
Yes, those two sets are, IMO, a sure shot. Just for the record: last year I bought two sets that I suppossed would be great, but I was slightly disappointed: Ingrid Matthews/Byron Schenkman & Maya Homburger/Malcolm Proud. To make this clear, are fine sets, but not great.
Me too, it's a lovely recording.

I see we are doing some similar researches. I am also very interested in Csalog/Spányi; it looks quite unique.

I also have Hantaï and See. Hantaï was the first recording of these flute sonatas I had played on period intrument and still today it's one of my very favorites. Very high also rank Barthold Kujiken (DHM complete set, including the dubious sonatas) and Stephen Preston (licensed by Brilliant).  :)
Thanks for taking the time to go over all of this. It's helpful to me and, I suspect, to others. I'll put the violin sets you mentioned on my list. I may also have to seek out the Savall/Koopman and Perkola/Hakkinen recordings.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 05:09:04 AM
Quote from: milk on February 05, 2012, 04:45:28 AM
Thanks for taking the time to go over all of this. It's helpful to me and, I suspect, to others. I'll put the violin sets you mentioned on my list. I may also have to seek out the Savall/Koopman and Perkola/Hakkinen recordings.

You're welcome!  :)

Perkola/Hakkinen is a beautiful set of gamba sonatas (great sound and interpretation on the reflective side) and you get some excellent bonuses, too.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on February 05, 2012, 06:32:31 AM
For the violin sonatas another vote for Malgoire/Rannou. Fernandez/Alard is still on the wishlist  :-\, but I'd like to recommend an "golden Oldie": Kuijken/Leonhardt - sober and very touching! :)

For the Gamba sonatas another vote for Weber/Hill and the 2nd Koopman/Savall.

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: kishnevi on February 05, 2012, 07:09:10 AM
I have the 2000 Savall/Koopman recording,  Is that their second recording?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on February 05, 2012, 07:25:43 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 05, 2012, 07:09:10 AM
I have the 2000 Savall/Koopman recording,  Is that their second recording?

Absolutely - on Alia Vox. :)

Q
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Opus106 on February 05, 2012, 07:53:38 AM
Quote from: ~ Que ~ on February 05, 2012, 07:25:43 AM
Absolutely - on Alia Vox. :)

Q

And the one on Virgin is the other one?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 05, 2012, 08:32:35 AM
I have Malgoire/Rannou and Kuijken/Leonhardt, but for a golden oldie I recommend  Galina Barinova and Sviatoslav Richter, which is even more sober and even more touching:

(http://127.0.0.1:9000/music/29acc979/cover_96x96_p.png)

I once got very excited because I found a record of these sonatas with Richter and Kagan -- Kagan is one of my favourite violinists and Sv. Richter one of my favourite pianists.

Anyway, turned out to be a misattribution . It was Ka. Richter.  :'(
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 08:35:05 AM
Quote from: Opus106 on February 05, 2012, 07:53:38 AM
And the one on Virgin is the other one?

Yes, Navneeth. The first one is the 1977 EMI/Virgin recording, some time ago reissued under this cover:

(http://www.qobuz.com/images/jaquettes/0724/0724356129153_600.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Opus106 on February 05, 2012, 08:37:00 AM
Thanks a bunch, Antoine.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 05, 2012, 08:56:58 AM

For a golden oldie of the violin-harpsichord sonatas I recommend Joseph Suk and Zuzana Ruzickova in their first recording of the works (Supraphon ca. 1963). The most touching interpretation of this music I ever have heard.

Obs: The Supraphon recording is probably identical with the version released on CD by Denon - I am not quite sure, but it is definitely not identical with their recording for Erato (rereleased on Apex) made a few years later.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 05, 2012, 09:05:34 AM
That's interesting. I'll follow that up. I have Ruzickova playing some concertos with Ancerl(I think), and I like her style.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: kishnevi on February 05, 2012, 07:48:29 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 08:35:05 AM
Yes, Navneeth. The first one is the 1977 EMI/Virgin recording, some time ago reissued under this cover:

(http://www.qobuz.com/images/jaquettes/0724/0724356129153_600.jpg)

Good Lord!  I forgot I had that one too (in the re-issue format)!
Actually, I got the Virgin when it was first re-issued.  The Alia Vox came as part of my end of the year splurge, with Savall's Brandenburgs, Musical Offering and Art of Fugue.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 06, 2012, 04:44:48 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 05:09:04 AM
You're welcome!  :)

Perkola/Hakkinen is a beautiful set of gamba sonatas (great sound and interpretation on the reflective side) and you get some excellent bonuses, too.
Yeah, I'm really enjoying the Perkola/Hakkinen. Very nice!
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 13, 2012, 05:43:16 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 02:54:35 AM
Unfortunately I can't help because I don't know the ABC set. But the last three years I have added six or seven complete sets to my collection and the most satisfactory were Blandine Rannou & Florence Malgoire (Zig-Zag Territoires) and François Fernandez & Benjamin Alard (Flora). Both of them are outstanding.  :)

BTW, I agree about Butt & Blumenstock, but not regarding the gamba sonatas. I liked very much  Pandolfo & Hunninger and any day I'd prefer their performance over Quintana/Frisch. The Ghielmis are very good, but it's a sort of eccentricity (I mean by the use of a fortepiano).
Thanks also for the Malgoire/Rannou recommendation. I got it in the mail today. I'm making my way through it but so far it seems like a unique take on these works. It's kind of subdued, if not slightly dark. I'm looking forward to spending some time with it.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bulldog on February 13, 2012, 02:53:44 PM
Here's an excellent recording on Alpha of the Viola da Gamba Sonatas:

[asin]B006M51FEW[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 13, 2012, 02:59:59 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 13, 2012, 02:53:44 PM
Here's an excellent recording on Alpha of the Viola da Gamba Sonatas:

[asin]B006M51FEW[/asin]

Do you have a physical copy, Don?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: PaulSC on February 13, 2012, 05:39:23 PM
What a coincidence! Boulanger and Pasquale's Gamba Sonatas are my most recent purchase and I was just coming here to report on my first listen. I have to agree with Don's overall assessment. Boulanger has an unusually rich tone, and the two musicians play with a fine sense of ensemble (aided by an effective recording balance, which can be a big issue in this repertoire). My only small gripe — bearing in mind I've just listened once — is that the lower register of the harpsichord sounds a bit muddy.

(Aside to Antoine: I purchased an MP3 download and cannot comment on the availability of the disc in other formats.)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bulldog on February 13, 2012, 06:47:44 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 13, 2012, 02:59:59 PM
Do you have a physical copy, Don?

No, I listened on NML.  I don't think it's been released yet (at least in the U.S.)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 13, 2012, 07:56:12 PM
Quote from: Bulldog on February 13, 2012, 06:47:44 PM
No, I listened on NML.  I don't think it's been released yet (at least in the U.S.)
Thanks! Yesterday I searched for this recording, but I didn't find it. Tonight the searching was more successful.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 14, 2012, 03:52:51 AM
Quote from: milk on February 13, 2012, 05:43:16 AM
Thanks also for the Malgoire/Rannou recommendation. I got it in the mail today. I'm making my way through it but so far it seems like a unique take on these works. It's kind of subdued, if not slightly dark. I'm looking forward to spending some time with it.

You're welcome! BTW, what do you think of those Gamba Sonatas on Naxos? I think that recording hasn't received the attention that it deserves. I enjoyed not just the gamba sonatas, but also all those generous and superbly played bonuses.  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 14, 2012, 06:24:48 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 14, 2012, 03:52:51 AM
You're welcome! BTW, what do you think of those Gamba Sonatas on Naxos? I think that recording hasn't received the attention that it deserves. I enjoyed not just the gamba sonatas, but also all those generous and superbly played bonuses.  :)
Thanks! I'm still working on processing the Naxos recording. I think I overloaded and confused myself with so many Gamba recordings now. But I've taken right away to the Rannou/Malgoire recording. Recently I've been enjoying Rannou a lot. Her new Goldberg is outstanding and I was enjoying her English Suites today also.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 14, 2012, 08:36:30 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 14, 2012, 03:52:51 AM
You're welcome! BTW, what do you think of those Gamba Sonatas on Naxos? I think that recording hasn't received the attention that it deserves. I enjoyed not just the gamba sonatas, but also all those generous and superbly played bonuses.  :)
I tied to focus on the Naxos today seeing as how you asked me. I have so much less of a handle on the intricacies of performance than you and other commentators here because I'm just less musically educated. I know my opinion will be taken with a grain of salt. Anyway, I do enjoy the Hakkinen/Perkola recording. I think if I had to pick three recordings that sharply stand out from each other in style it would be the Naxos, the Hunninger/Pandolfo and the Ghielmi brothers. I think the Naxos is elegant, airy and contemplative. The Pandolfo can be a bit vexing sometimes. Pandolfo is just so unique, and maybe strange, in his (staccato?) playing. I love the sound quality - the balance - and improvisational feel and musicianship of that recording. But it is very personal and different - maybe too much so to be a "reference" recording (whatever that is). It's a contrast and I enjoy having contrasting recordings. When it comes to Frisch/Quintana, Crum/Cummings and even Savall/Koopman (second), I find I'm not so pleased with the production - with the balance. Or, in the case of Koopman, I'm not in love with his instrument. On the Frisch, the harpsichord is too soft; on the Cummings, the Gamba is too much in the background; and on the Savall, the harpsichord is a bit too thin. I always take Bulldog's recommendations seriously so I got the Lucile Boulanger & Arnaud De Pasquale release. I'm still listening, but so far I'm enjoying it. It has the exuberance and buoyancy that Frisch/Quintana and Crum/Cummings have without the production deficiencies. As for the extras on the Naxos, I'm still making my way through them. I still have to say how much of a pleasure the Ghielmi recording is. I think everyone interested in this music must have the Ghielmi brothers' recording!
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 22, 2012, 04:52:23 PM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2012, 02:54:35 AM
Unfortunately I can't help because I don't know the ABC set. But the last three years I have added six or seven complete sets to my collection and the most satisfactory were Blandine Rannou & Florence Malgoire (Zig-Zag Territoires) and François Fernandez & Benjamin Alard (Flora). Both of them are outstanding.  :)

BTW, I agree about Butt & Blumenstock, but not regarding the gamba sonatas. I liked very much  Pandolfo & Hunninger and any day I'd prefer their performance over Quintana/Frisch. The Ghielmis are very good, but it's a sort of eccentricity (I mean by the use of a fortepiano).
Thanks again for the Rannou/Florence Malgoire recommendation. I really love it. This is my best purchase of the last few months.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 22, 2012, 06:56:03 PM
Quote from: milk on February 22, 2012, 04:52:23 PM
Thanks again for the Rannou/Florence Malgoire recommendation. I really love it. This is my best purchase of the last few months.

Great!

Now I have a trilogy of favorites in these violin sonatas/harpsichord trios: Kuijken/Leonhardt, Malgoire/Rannou & Fernandez/Alard. Then I'd say Ngai/Watchorn, Blumenstock/Butt and Glodeanu/Haas.

Currently I have 21 complete sets of these works (I'm sure Premont and Don have some additional versions, anyway): v. Dael/ v. Asperen (Naxos), Santos/ Belder (Brilliant Classics), Valetti/ Frisch (Alpha), Fernandez/ Alard (Flora), Blumenstock/ Butt (Harmonia Mundi), Malgoire/ Rannou (Zig-Zag Territorires), Matthews/ Schenkman, Kuijken/Leonhardt (DHM), Ngai/Watchorn (Musica Omnia), Glodeanu/Haas (Ambronay), Podger/ Pinnock (Channel Classics), Holloway/ Moroney (Virgin), Carmignola/ Marcon (Sony), Manze/ Egarr/ ter Linden  (Harmonia Mundi), Goebel/ Hill (Archive/DG, Sitkovetsky/ Hill (Hänssler), Suk/Ruzickova (Erato/ Elatus), Homburger/ Proud (Maya), Frydén/ Leonhardt (Teldec), Grumiaux/ Giordani Sartori (Philips) & Laredo/ Gould (Sony).

I would like to add Huggett/Koopman (Philips) to my collection.

If I could record a new version, I would select Amandine Beyer and Claudio Astronio as performers. It would be a nice version, isn't it?

BTW, nice review on the gamba sonatas. I totally agree with your opinions. 

:)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 23, 2012, 03:52:26 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 22, 2012, 06:56:03 PM
..I'm sure Premont and Don have some additional versions, anyway..

Oh yes 17 more, but there are a couple of yours I do not have (Matthews/Schenkman,Grumiaux/Giordani-Sartori and Laredo/Gould).

BTW don´t you own Harnoncourt/Tachezi,Harnoncourt?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 23, 2012, 04:40:16 AM
Quote from: Discobole on February 23, 2012, 04:02:21 AM
Why Astronio, when Beyer is used to working with Céline Frisch for instance ? Beyer-Frisch, or Beyer-Joyé, that would be my choice as a producer ;D

It's my recording!  ;D

Frisch already recorded this collection with Valetti and I haven't listened to (the lovely) Joyé as a chamber musician so far.

Additionally, I would like to see Astronio recording some Bach (some JS, I mean, because he recorded an outstanding WF) as a harpsichordist (his approaches on the organ are top notch). He has something wild/imaginative like Amandine Beyer, but, at the same time, he is perfectly controlled, like her. His website has announced for a long time a set of these works with Guglielmo (on CPO), but years have gone and still... Besides with Astronio, I would record two extra versions of two sonatas played on the organ. It's a nice plan, believe on me. 

;D

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 23, 2012, 04:52:48 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 23, 2012, 03:52:26 AM
Oh yes 17 more, but there are a couple of yours I do not have (Matthews/Schenkman,Grumiaux/Giordani-Sartori and Laredo/Gould).

I know you would like to have that Gould/Laredo... I know it!  ;)

Quote from: (: premont :) on February 23, 2012, 03:52:26 AM
BTW don´t you own Harnoncourt/Tachezi,Harnoncourt?

I pre-ordered the Teldec Edition (which will be released on March and this week on JPC), so there I will get that set.  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 23, 2012, 05:27:51 AM
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 22, 2012, 06:56:03 PM
Great!

Now I have a trilogy of favorites in these violin sonatas/harpsichord trios: Kuijken/Leonhardt, Malgoire/Rannou & Fernandez/Alard. Then I'd say Ngai/Watchorn, Blumenstock/Butt and Glodeanu/Haas.

Currently I have 21 complete sets of these works (I'm sure Premont and Don have some additional versions, anyway): v. Dael/ v. Asperen (Naxos), Santos/ Belder (Brilliant Classics), Valetti/ Frisch (Alpha), Fernandez/ Alard (Flora), Blumenstock/ Butt (Harmonia Mundi), Malgoire/ Rannou (Zig-Zag Territorires), Matthews/ Schenkman, Kuijken/Leonhardt (DHM), Ngai/Watchorn (Musica Omnia), Glodeanu/Haas (Ambronay), Podger/ Pinnock (Channel Classics), Holloway/ Moroney (Virgin), Carmignola/ Marcon (Sony), Manze/ Egarr/ ter Linden  (Harmonia Mundi), Goebel/ Hill (Archive/DG, Sitkovetsky/ Hill (Hänssler), Suk/Ruzickova (Erato/ Elatus), Homburger/ Proud (Maya), Frydén/ Leonhardt (Teldec), Grumiaux/ Giordani Sartori (Philips) & Laredo/ Gould (Sony).

I would like to add Huggett/Koopman (Philips) to my collection.

If I could record a new version, I would select Amandine Beyer and Claudio Astronio as performers. It would be a nice version, isn't it?

BTW, nice review on the gamba sonatas. I totally agree with your opinions. 

:)
I'm glad my impression of the Gambas doesn't seem totally off base. I'm trying to keep growing with the music and to listen more deeply.
I feel I have a ways to go...not that I'm not just enjoying it.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on April 08, 2012, 04:54:33 AM
Quote from: PaulSC on January 21, 2011, 09:26:27 PM
Lots of praise for Ingrid Matthews' beautiful recording of the solo Sonatas and Partitas, but I wonder if her performances of the Harpsichord/Violin Sonatas BWV 1014-1019 have been overlooked. She's equally masterful in the latter, Byron Schenkman is an able partner (though sadly the partnership has since dissolved and he's pursuing modern piano performance exclusively), their instruments are well matched, and the recorded sound is very good.

(http://images.cdbaby.name/i/n/ingridbyron.jpg)

One of my favorite traversals of the set, alongside Van Dael/Van Asperen, Podger/Pinnock, and Kuijken/Leonhardt. (There are several others I still need to hear, notably Biondi/Alessandrini...)

He seems pretty uninspiring to me, and on spotify the balance works against the keyboard (it may be better on CD -- can anyone comment?) I listened to Byron Schenkman playing some Frescobaldi too, and I thought it wasn't very interesting.

But Ingrid Matthews is quite another matter, with her distinctive articulation, more like speech than song. She's very interesting.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Bulldog on April 08, 2012, 11:55:54 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 08, 2012, 04:54:33 AM
He seems pretty uninspiring to me, and on spotify the balance works against the keyboard (it may be better on CD -- can anyone comment?) I listened to Byron Schenkman playing some Frescobaldi too, and I thought it wasn't very interesting.

But Ingrid Matthews is quite another matter, with her distinctive articulation, more like speech than song. She's very interesting.

I agree that Natthews is wonderful in the sonatas, but I don't have any problem with Schenkman.  He does a fine job in the 3rd movement of the last sonata; that's the test I always use (given it's a harpsichord solo).
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: PaulSC on April 08, 2012, 12:18:08 PM
Neither the recording balance nor the character of Schenkman's playing bothers me. On the contrary, I think there is a good sense of dialogue between the two performers on this set. It's true, however, that Matthews probably outshines Schenkman, whom I do not generally count among my favorite harpsichordists.

Like Don (bulldog), I think the solo harpsichord movement of BWV 1019 is Bach at his most uplifting and inspiring, and I think Schenkman's performance serves this music well.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on April 08, 2012, 01:34:39 PM
Are you listening on CD PaulSC, or on spotify? 
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: PaulSC on April 08, 2012, 02:13:19 PM
I purchased MP3s with a reasonable bit rate (can't check the details right now). Maybe comparable to the streaming Spotify quality, or in between that and CD quality. This is the format in which I do almost all of my music listening these days.

If I have a chance to revisit the Matthews/Schenkman Sonatas over the next week or so, I'll keep your comments in mind. I haven't listened to this recording in a while...
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 08, 2012, 02:27:25 PM
The Matthews/Schenkman set:

http://magnatune.com/artists/matthews
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Marc on November 08, 2015, 10:19:38 AM
It's been quite a long time since I last listened to Bach's sonatas for violin & harpsichord, BWV 1014-1019. Right now I'm enjoying these great works whilst listening to a 2cd-set by Jean-Pierre Wallez and Jean-Patrice Brosse. My first impressions are that this is a fine set, but that the playing is a bit on the 'stiff' side, especially in some of the slow movements, reminding me now and then of Huguette Dreyfus in the harpsichord Partitas BWV 825-830.
The recording is good in general, even though the violin sometimes sounds a bit 'from a distance', as if these works were composed for harpsichord with violino accompagnato.

(http://113.imagebam.com/download/GnwMNLZekO7OAP2COMs3qA/44565/445647686/bachbwv1014-1019wallezbrosse.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Sonates-Jean-Patrice-Brosse-Wallez/dp/B00009V2W5/?tag=goodmusicguideco
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on November 09, 2015, 09:22:59 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 08, 2015, 10:19:38 AM
It's been quite a long time since I last listened to Bach's sonatas for violin & harpsichord, BWV 1014-1019. Right now I'm enjoying these great works whilst listening to a 2cd-set by Jean-Pierre Wallez and Jean-Patrice Brosse. My first impressions are that this is a fine set, but that the playing is a bit on the 'stiff' side, especially in some of the slow movements, reminding me now and then of Huguette Dreyfus in the harpsichord Partitas BWV 825-830.
The recording is good in general, even though the violin sometimes sounds a bit 'from a distance', as if these works were composed for harpsichord with violino accompagnato.

(http://113.imagebam.com/download/GnwMNLZekO7OAP2COMs3qA/44565/445647686/bachbwv1014-1019wallezbrosse.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Sonates-Jean-Patrice-Brosse-Wallez/dp/B00009V2W5/?tag=goodmusicguideco

I haven't heard her partitas, but Huguette Dreyfus came up quite recently and I found myself listening to her Goldbergs. Friends raved about it, using expressions like refreshingly straightforward manner, no excessive ornamentation or rhythmic shifts, fascinating, elegant, beautiful , intelligent, tasteful, musical, lets the music speak for itself.

I thought it was really unexpressive;  she chooses pulse and sticks to it, with no deviations. (Good harpsichord though == Hemsch) I don't know if I'll ever be able to enjoy this type of playing really.

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on November 09, 2015, 12:11:05 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 09, 2015, 09:22:59 AM
I haven't heard her partitas, but Huguette Dreyfus came up quite recently and I found myself listening to her Goldbergs. Friends raved about it, using expressions like refreshingly straightforward manner, no excessive ornamentation or rhythmic shifts, fascinating, elegant, beautiful , intelligent, tasteful, musical, lets the music speak for itself.

I thought it was really unexpressive;  she chooses pulse and sticks to it, with no deviations. (Good harpsichord though == Hemsch) I don't know if I'll ever be able to enjoy this type of playing really.

Agree about her Goldbergs.

I acquired her Partitas recently and find them interesting enough. Most interesting are the subtle agogics, which one maybe have to concentrate upon to hear, much like what is the case with Marie-Claire Alain's Bach playing, which also may seem rather mechanical to the inattentive ear .
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on November 10, 2015, 05:54:42 AM
Quote from: Marc on November 08, 2015, 10:19:38 AM
It's been quite a long time since I last listened to Bach's sonatas for violin & harpsichord, BWV 1014-1019. Right now I'm enjoying these great works whilst listening to a 2cd-set by Jean-Pierre Wallez and Jean-Patrice Brosse. My first impressions are that this is a fine set, but that the playing is a bit on the 'stiff' side, especially in some of the slow movements, reminding me now and then of Huguette Dreyfus in the harpsichord Partitas BWV 825-830.
The recording is good in general, even though the violin sometimes sounds a bit 'from a distance', as if these works were composed for harpsichord with violino accompagnato.


You have made me curious of this balance, and despite your critical comment I have ordered the CDs from a reliable AMP seller,
I suppose Wallez plays on a modern violin?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: jlaurson on November 26, 2015, 01:13:24 AM
Fresh from Forbes:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)

NOV 25, 2015
The Real Top 10 Bach Recordings

Bach, the Grand Master

There is something about the music of Johann Sebastian Bach that puts it in a category of its own.
Bach is the P.G. Wodehouse and the Shakespeare of the musical score rolled into one. He is the
only composer on whom I cannot overdose, and while his music seemed dated to his own, slightly
embarrassed sons, it strikes us as perfectly timeless now. His works pillars of mankind's culture,
and his music constitute the first tracks etched onto the golden record Voyager record that sails
toward hypothetical distant galactic civilizations. I should think that potential aliens might rather
get too sanguine an impression of us* ... but there we go: Bach is the bee's knees, and anyone
who knows Bach but doesn't love his music is going to be suspect to me, lest I learn a exculpatory
reason for their lamentable deficiency.

The Gramophone Bias

Gramophone Magazine is the only English language magazine that combines serious CD-reviewing
with the glossy, popular magazine approach. I used to read it religiously and got many of my first
hints, tastes, and opinions from its pages. BBC Music Magazine gets close; Classic FM Magazine
lasted nearly twenty years but wasn't taken seriously by the cogniscenti. No-nonsense, no-picture
publications like the American Record Guide or Fanfare Magazine (both American), which exude the
charm of telephone books, are total geek literature, arcane, loved by the few dedicated readers, and
more or less published out of the basements of their respective, dedicated publishers... private
ventures and labors of love that, like the lamented International Record Review, won't likely survive
their founders.

In my time as a clerk at Tower Records, we would sometimes make fun of Gramophone Magazine's
rather obvious pro-English biases. "Proximity bias" or "mere exposure effect" might be the appropriate
euphemism for them being unabashed homers. And indeed, when they published a "10 Best Bach
Recordings" list published early last year, they topped it in such a ridiculous way that it needed soft
rebutting which I hope to provide hereby...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/11/25/the-real-top-10-bach-recordings/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/11/Top-10_Bach_Recordings_laurson_600-1200x446.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/11/25/the-real-top-10-bach-recordings/)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: aukhawk on November 26, 2015, 02:53:17 AM
A good read - thanks.  And some very well-reasoned choices, with one or two that I shall have to look up without delay  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on November 26, 2015, 03:11:46 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 26, 2015, 01:13:24 AM
Fresh from Forbes:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)

(http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/11/25/the-real-top-10-bach-recordings/)

Yes, thanks, indeed a good read.  :)
There are however nowadays so many outstanding Bach-recordings, that one often chooses at random.
This fact made me a Bach-completist.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 03:23:55 AM
#10 on Gramophone#s list is not at all British (neither literally nor "in spirit"), though, it's Harnoncourt's 2000 St. Matthew. Unless this is a different list.

I think the main fault of that list might even be the choice of works, not recordings. The orchestral suites in favor of all organ music, cantatas and motets?
(tbh those suites are among the pieces I'd probably not miss if I could never hear them again)
Only 2/10 vocal music seems very biased. Even taking into account that 10 is really not enough (unless one cheats with a box of all cantatas or organ works or so...), at least 4 choices should be vocal music, I think.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: jlaurson on November 26, 2015, 06:39:49 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 03:23:55 AM
#10 on Gramophone#s list is not at all British (neither literally nor "in spirit"), though, it's Harnoncourt's 2000 St. Matthew. Unless this is a different list.

I think the main fault of that list might even be the choice of works, not recordings. The orchestral suites in favor of all organ music, cantatas and motets?
(tbh those suites are among the pieces I'd probably not miss if I could never hear them again)
Only 2/10 vocal music seems very biased. Even taking into account that 10 is really not enough (unless one cheats with a box of all cantatas or organ works or so...), at least 4 choices should be vocal music, I think.

1.) Didn't claim that No.10 was Anglo... but it's telling that it's the ONLY choice that's not Anglo. I mean, 9-out-of-10 is a pretty good hint at bias, don't you think?

2.) That's a whole other can of worms. And I agree. Although I can see why a list aimed at newcomers would favor the easily digestible orchestral suites over cantatas or organ works which are, rightly or not, considered more inside-Baseball-Bach than the orchestral works and greatest instrumental hits.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: kishnevi on November 26, 2015, 06:55:20 AM
Quote from: jlaurson on November 26, 2015, 06:39:49 AM

2.) That's a whole other can of worms. And I agree. Although I can see why a list aimed at newcomers would favor the easily digestible orchestral suites over cantatas or organ works which are, rightly or not, considered more inside-Baseball-Bach than the orchestral works and greatest instrumental hits.

But it is a organ work which is undoubtedly the work by Bach which comes closest to being the Bach piece everyone in the world has heard at least once:  BWV 565 .
( The idea that it is not by Bach is inside-baseball-Bach,  but does not impede that point.)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: jlaurson on November 26, 2015, 08:19:28 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 26, 2015, 06:55:20 AM
But it is a organ work which is undoubtedly the work by Bach which comes closest to being the Bach piece everyone in the world has heard at least once:  BWV 565 .
( The idea that it is not by Bach is inside-baseball-Bach,  but does not impede that point.)

As you admit yourself, I'm not as sure about the "undoubtedly"... nor do I think that its popularity (thanks to Dr. Fu-Man-Chu and other plotting henchmen, mostly) translates into: excellent introduction to Bach. My favorite piece would be BWV 582 (Passacaglia), perhaps, and I'd be happy to make more people listen to it. But the organ is, let's face it, a bit more arcane an instrument than an orchestra.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 10:19:19 AM
If one tried to match roughly the proportions of Bach's Oeuvre out of 10 there should be 1 orchestral, 1 chamber, 3-4 keyboard and organ and 4-5 vocal. (And this is already giving some advantage to orchestral and chamber.)
Of course one need not do this strictly but they chose 3 orchestral, 2 chamber, 3 keyboard (but without organ) and 2 vocal which is rather biased. I won't quibble with the fact that only 2 out of the 7 (or is it only one WTC volume) keyboard discs are on harpsichord...
As Jeffrey seems to suggest one "best-of"-organ disc, including BWV 565 (and 582) would be considerably more accessible for newbies than e.g. the solo violin partitas.

In any case, choosing the Harnoncourt SMP is quite astonishing because this is really about as un-british as it gets (unless one wants to go for Scherchen, Richter or Mengelberg). Together with Gould's GBV it's also the only from the choices I have on my shelves.
(I am afraid I have none of yours but this is mainly because they are almost all very recent recordings and I basically stopped buying newer recordings of standard stuff unless there is an extremely good reason to do so. The liturgical reconstruction of SJP might give me such a reason...)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: jlaurson on November 26, 2015, 11:24:14 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 10:19:19 AM
If one tried to match roughly the proportions of Bach's Oeuvre out of 10 there should be 1 orchestral, 1 chamber, 3-4 keyboard and organ and 4-5 vocal. (And this is already giving some advantage to orchestral and chamber.)
Of course one need not do this strictly but they chose 3 orchestral, 2 chamber, 3 keyboard (but without organ) and 2 vocal which is rather biased. I won't quibble with the fact that only 2 out of the 7 (or is it only one WTC volume) keyboard discs are on harpsichord...
As Jeffrey seems to suggest one "best-of"-organ disc, including BWV 565 (and 582) would be considerably more accessible for newbies than e.g. the solo violin partitas.

In any case, choosing the Harnoncourt SMP is quite astonishing because this is really about as un-british as it gets (unless one wants to go for Scherchen, Richter or Mengelberg). Together with Gould's GBV it's also the only from the choices I have on my shelves.
(I am afraid I have none of yours but this is mainly because they are almost all very recent recordings and I basically stopped buying newer recordings of standard stuff unless there is an extremely good reason to do so. The liturgical reconstruction of SJP might give me such a reason...)


Well, I'm not in the business of defending Gramophone's ways, and the list would have looked a little different if I had put it together from scratch, rather working along their lines. But not as much and certainly I would not have attempted to reflect Bach's output by quantity in the choices for what is essentially a list to "hook" people on Bach.

You make a good point re: Solo Partitas & Sonatas... or so one would think... but without having hard numbers available, I'd venture to say that discs of those sell better, in toto, than of his organ works.

I think including the Karl Richter Organ 3 CD organ set would be a wonderful introduction to the organ works. And I would probably chose this disc (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/weinen-klagenherreweghes-new-bach.html) as an intro to the Cantatas. And maybe these Motets (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html) (Re-Issue No.1) would fit in nicely, too.

***

If you had a look at my shelves (almost a yard! is devoted just to Bach's organ works -- and even more to his cantatas) you would certainly not consider me guilty of sharing in this bias... but I know that I didn't arrive at this right away but by working my way up through the orchestral and chamber works. (Now I would part with all of Bach's works, if forced at gunpoint, to keep the cantatas, rather than keep the rest but part with the cantatas.)

The list got expanded in the accompanying discography, which also includes ionarts's founder's Charles choices, who is mindful about picking HIP and non-HIP versions.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-real-top-10-bach-recordings.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-real-top-10-bach-recordings.html)

Maybe it would be interesting to do such a list with all-HIP and all non-HIP... I wonder who would show up for the latter. Queyras would get to stay, but maybe I'd substitute with Lipkind who is even further away from HIP... Milstein or Mintz for the S&P? Ristenpart for the Overtures? Richter for something... B-Minor, maybe. Rilling II for the M-Passion.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: aukhawk on November 27, 2015, 01:32:52 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 26, 2015, 03:23:55 AM
I think the main fault of that list might even be the choice of works, ...
Only 2/10 vocal music seems very biased. ...

And there was I, wishing for the French Suites to be included  ;)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Jo498 on November 27, 2015, 01:46:58 AM
I did not mean to criticize you for mirroring gramophone's list.
"Getting someone hooked" is also a very different objective from giving a somewhat representative sample that reflects the breadth of a composer's oeuvre at least to some extent.

Still, I'd say that either the violin OR cello suites would have been sufficient for a list with either objective (for getting newbies hooked I'd probably go with neither as I think the most accessible chamber music are the violin/keyboard sonatas although the string solo pieces have a fascination of their own without a doubt).
And it's also not clear why the newbie would need the violin concertos in addition to the Brandenburgs (and the orchestral suites as well), this seems fairly redundant.

Anyway, I do not think newcomers need to be pampered. :D One never knows beforehand to what kind of music someone will respond and I have heard several stories about people who took long to get into classical music because they were mainly confronted with the sunday brunch greatest hits ;) So a broader spectrum should be an advantage even with newbie recs.

And organ music is a strange beast because while overall rather hermetic and often restricted to certain circles, there are some pieces, like the d minor toccata, but also the "little g minor" fugue, the "Wachet auf" chorale setting and maybe a few more one will find with high likelihood on a "Best of Bach" sampler.

@aukhawk: I think it doesn't really matter if one chooses the Partitas, French or English suites as representative. I personally think the partitas are the best and also quite accessible (if maybe not as easy to get as some of the French suites) and find the English still a little "dry" after 15 years or so but these are personal nuances that I'd never try to universalize.

I also agree that it can be as bad or worse if huge Bach-nerds (similarly for some other composers) choose pieces they are nuts about and cannot comprehend that they are tough for an inexperienced listener.
But the gramophone list seems on the one hand to stick to the most popular (concertos etc.) and on the other hand not to care about accessibility in case of the violin solos and the SMP.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: aukhawk on November 27, 2015, 08:00:22 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 27, 2015, 01:46:58 AM
@aukhawk: I think it doesn't really matter if one chooses the Partitas, French or English suites as representative. I personally think the partitas are the best and also quite accessible (if maybe not as easy to get as some of the French suites) and find the English still a little "dry" after 15 years or so ...

Oh I completely agree with that summary.  It's probably just that, after the Brandenburgs and alongside the Cello Suites, the French Suites were my personal 'in' to Bach.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Wakefield on November 28, 2015, 12:46:37 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on November 27, 2015, 01:46:58 AM
Anyway, I do not think newcomers need to be pampered. :D 
[...]
I also agree that it can be as bad or worse if huge Bach-nerds (similarly for some other composers) choose pieces they are nuts about and cannot comprehend that they are tough for an inexperienced listener.

I fully agree with your first statement ("newcomers don't need be pampered") and a little bit less with the second one... I'm confident that truth just sounds different. Even if we don't immediately recognise it during the first encounter. :)

http://www.youtube.com/v/gkEQ_bvbny4
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 02, 2017, 07:48:02 PM
Might be resurrecting a thread from 2 years ago, but how do people think of this new release?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByrJDuGMpnw

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ne6Bz2ybL._SS500.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on March 28, 2017, 11:58:32 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 02, 2017, 07:48:02 PM
Might be resurrecting a thread from 2 years ago, but how do people think of this new release?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByrJDuGMpnw

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ne6Bz2ybL._SS500.jpg)

It's now on spotify so you can hear for yourself,  I listened to 1014 and 1019. I thought it favoured the violin in balance, and the interpretation was was more dazzling than expressive,  with no  sense of rapport between the two players, 1019 solo harpsichord has lashings of brio. 
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on March 28, 2017, 08:17:43 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 28, 2017, 11:58:32 AM
It's now on spotify so you can hear for yourself,  I listened to 1014 and 1019. I thought it favoured the violin in balance, and the interpretation was was more dazzling than expressive,  with no  sense of rapport between the two players, 1019 solo harpsichord has lashings of brio.

Ha, I had almost exactly those impressions when I listened to this. I was quite impressed by the sample they put up (Last movement of the 3rd sonata), but the rest wasn't as beautiful. The way Zanisi plays reminds me a lot of Kuijken, but is a hit-or-miss thing. Nice harpsichord, though (made by keith Hill).
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on April 01, 2017, 10:33:23 PM
Been crazy about this recording for years. Is anybody like me?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on April 09, 2017, 09:43:48 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/076/MI0003076286.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

This is Paolo Pandolfo's second recording of the gamba sonatas, with Markus Hünninger.

Pandolfo's has developed a way of articulating which encapsulates the notes, rather like a harpsichord in fact - that's the best way I can think of to describe it, I know if anyone hears it they'll see what I'm getting at.

The result in ensemble is a sound which is very "complicit", the two instruments fit each other like hand and glove. That complicity is borne out in the interpretations, which are fresh and imbued with a sense of the two musicians responding to each other.

The adagio of the G minor is particularly memorable in this respect: it's interesting to contrast what they do there with Wieland Kuijken/Leonhardt. The latter more "singing forth", and certainly the rapport between the two parts is very different. I'd like to spend more time with both versions to really get to grips with the differences.

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on June 30, 2017, 05:33:41 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on April 09, 2017, 09:43:48 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/076/MI0003076286.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

This is Paolo Pandolfo's second recording of the gamba sonatas, with Markus Hünninger.

Pandolfo's has developed a way of articulating which encapsulates the notes, rather like a harpsichord in fact - that's the best way I can think of to describe it, I know if anyone hears it they'll see what I'm getting at.

The result in ensemble is a sound which is very "complicit", the two instruments fit each other like hand and glove. That complicity is borne out in the interpretations, which are fresh and imbued with a sense of the two musicians responding to each other.

The adagio of the G minor is particularly memorable in this respect: it's interesting to contrast what they do there with Wieland Kuijken/Leonhardt. The latter more "singing forth", and certainly the rapport between the two parts is very different. I'd like to spend more time with both versions to really get to grips with the differences.
Hand in glove is right. Magical!
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2017, 08:37:23 AM
Quote from: James Reel for allmusic here https://www.allmusic.com/composition/sonata-for-violin-continuo-in-e-minor-bwv-1023-mc0002365553Most of Bach's accompanied violin sonatas [and I assume he's talking about 1014-1019] -- distinct from the six great solo sonatas and partitas -- pair the instrument with harpsichord alone, and cast the violin in a supporting role.

This comment about the violin being in a supporting roll (which I thought was interesting) came to mind yesterday, when I listened to the first time to Tuma and Zenaty here, a valuable set of performances which do quite often sound like harpsichord sonatas with violin in accompaniment.

(https://i.scdn.co/image/89bafcc1d7e857936763119b890edc858a22084b)

Anyway I post this to see if anyone has any thoughts about the matter.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Josquin13 on December 16, 2017, 09:47:41 AM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 02, 2017, 07:48:02 PM
Might be resurrecting a thread from 2 years ago, but how do people think of this new release?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByrJDuGMpnw

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ne6Bz2ybL._SS500.jpg)

The harpsichord sounds like it has been placed too far into the background for there to be any real dialogue between the two instruments (or the violin is too closely miked).  It sounds like impressive violin playing though.  Arcana is usually a good label for sound quality, so I wonder if the You Tube clip brings out this recording issue more than the CDs?

If you're looking for a fine digital set on period instruments, my two current favorites are from Emlyn Nagai and Peter Watchorn, and Pablo Valetti & Celine Frisch (of Cafe Zimmermann).  The balances on both are exceptional.   (I've heard many recordings of this music, but I've yet to get to the François Fernandez, and Chiara Banchini sets.  Huggett and Koopman are good too--but probably need to be remastered.  As for Stefano Montanari & Christophe Rousset, I've found the sound recording to be too harsh: the violin tone can be grating, which took away from my enjoyment of the otherwise fine playing).

[asin]B00005NHK5[/asin]
[asin]B0007IO6UU[/asin]
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on December 16, 2017, 04:28:26 PM
(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/515HgH1q95L._SR600%2C315_PIWhiteStrip%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C35_PIStarRatingTWOANDHALF%2CBottomLeft%2C360%2C-6_SR600%2C315_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on December 16, 2017, 06:48:44 PM
I recall Donald Satz's conclusion way back when that Elizabeth Blumenstock & John Butt had on of the best sets (at that time).
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 18, 2018, 08:37:19 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51dICVCDDAL.jpg)

Agsteribbe and Neve play the harpsichord and violin sonatas. Equality of the two instruments is achieved through the way that both instruments are allowed to contribute to the poetry of the whole. Imaginative expressively, chockablock with new ideas. All sounds quite natural to me too.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 18, 2018, 08:49:54 AM
The music is called " Sei Suonate a Cembalo certato è Violino Solo, col Basso per Viola da Gamba accompagnato se piace. "

Does that "certato" mean that the keyboard has the lead role, the violin a secondary one?

What recordings do you know which play the music à Cembalo certato è Violino Solo?

Is there any precedent for this relationship - ie other sonatas à cembalo certato è violino solo?




Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 18, 2018, 09:09:02 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 18, 2018, 08:49:54 AM
The music is called " Sei Suonate a Cembalo certato è Violino Solo, col Basso per Viola da Gamba accompagnato se piace. "

Does that "certato" mean that the keyboard has the lead role, the violin a secondary one?

What recordings do you know what play the music a Cembalo certato è Violino Solo

In this page the explanation of certato is that the harpsichord parts are written out in the full:

https://voicesofmusic.org/bachviolin.html

So I do not think the term differs much from cembalo obligato - in contrast to cembalo continuo.

In Bach's sonatas the two musicians are equal, just in the same way as the parts are equal in the organ triosonatas.

Most of the existing recordings unfortunately favor the violin. As I wrote some years ago I think Bach had a violin/organ sound in his mind for these pieces, which all except no. 6 are written in sonata di chiesa style. This would create a better balance.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 18, 2018, 09:19:08 AM
Thanks, I got the idea that the keyboard leads the partnership from Johan van Veen's review of Dantone/Mutter, It struck me as strange, hence the question.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/July07/Bach_Mullova_ONYX4020.htm#ixzz57U09eG4Z

It certainly is hard to make the parts sound equally prominent in the texture with a harpsichord for keyboard.

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 18, 2018, 09:26:27 AM
Oh, I'll just mention that I've been listening with more pleasure than before to Perkola/ Häkkinen play the gamba sonatas.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 18, 2018, 10:27:45 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 18, 2018, 09:26:27 AM
Oh, I'll just mention that I've been listening with more pleasure than before to Perkola/ Häkkinen play the gamba sonatas.

It is on my wishlist. I suppose, Häkkinen uses his 16' harpsichord.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2018, 08:55:01 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 18, 2018, 09:09:02 AM
In this page the explanation of certato is that the harpsichord parts are written out in the full:

https://voicesofmusic.org/bachviolin.html

So I do not think the term differs much from cembalo obligato - in contrast to cembalo continuo.

In Bach's sonatas the two musicians are equal, just in the same way as the parts are equal in the organ triosonatas.

Most of the existing recordings unfortunately favor the violin. As I wrote some years ago I think Bach had a violin/organ sound in his mind for these pieces, which all except no. 6 are written in sonata di chiesa style. This would create a better balance.

Do you also think that the gamba sonatas work better for the balances with an organ?

I can see that Jochen Brusch - Sven-Ingvart Mikkelsen play 1019 - I'm curious to hear the recording just because of Mikkelsen, but I can't find it for sale anywhere - if anyone sees it at an affordable price, please let me know.

(http://www.jochenbrusch.com/img/cd/sixsonatas.jpg)

Quote from: (: premont :) on February 18, 2018, 10:27:45 AM
It is on my wishlist. I suppose, Häkkinen uses his 16' harpsichord.

Of course





.


Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2018, 09:12:49 AM
These are the notes on the 2017 Montero/Boccaccio recording of the gamba sonatas, which I thought were really revelatory performnces.

QuotePatxi Montero and Daniele Boccaccio have already recorded for Brilliant Classics the three sonatas composed by J.S. Bach around 1720, when the viola da gamba was already an archaic instrument, superseded by string bass variants such as the cello and double-bass, for their greater volume, projection and reliable tuning. However, the gamba's multiple strings and barrelled sound-box gave it a unique, speaking quality that continued to fascinate composers; long after its high noon as part of a viol consort in 17th-century chamber music, Bach wrote not only these sonatas for the instrument but obbligato parts in various cantatas and at the expressive crux-points of his John and Matthew- Passions.

The earlier recording by Montero and Boccaccio is available within the latest version of the Complete Bach Edition; for this new recording, however, the accompanying instrument is not the usual harpsichord but a church organ, in the church of S. Antonio Abate, Padova, Italy. Such an experiment in pairing the softly spoken timbre of the gamba with a sustained keyboard instrument has been undertaken before in this music, in a recording with accordion, but not with an organ.

'The result we obtained while recording these sonatas was truly amazing,' remark Montero and Boccaccio. 'We tried to merge the organ's own colours with the characteristic sound of the viola da gamba, changing the stops settings according to the styles of the movements. Dissonances came out in a more obvious way, and this greatly affected our tempo choices. The church's acoustics and the exuberance of the organ's sound led us to create a more concrete and well-supported sound.'

In this new recording of the magnificent (and still undervalued) sonatas for viola da gamba by Bach the keyboard is an organ, a german school Rückpositiv. The use of the organ instead of the harpsichord has changed the interpretation of the musician to a large extent: the sustained sound of the organ tones (contrary to the quickly decaying sound of the harpsichord) heightens the tension of the harmonics, especially the dissonances. The length of the notes is therefore often shortened, taking into account the reverberant acoustics of the church, which also affected the tempo choices. In short, this interpretation is completely different from the harpsichord version, shedding a new light on these masterpieces by Bach, who himself was never averse to using different instruments for his works.
Patxi Montero is one of the foremost viola da gamba players of this moment, he frequently collaborates with Early Music groups such as Concerto Italiano, Il Giardino Armonico, Zefiro, Europa Galante and conductors Rinaldo Alessandrini, Diego Fasolis and Fabio Biondi. Daniele Boccaccio already made a highly acclaimed recording for Brilliant Classics of his own organ arrangements of Bach's violin concertos (BC94829).
Excellent liner notes written by the musicians.

The accordion recording they refer to is with viola, the artists are Asbjørn Nørgaard and Andreas Borregaard, my impression is that it's exuberant,


(https://dnan0fzjxntrj.cloudfront.net/Pictures/480xany/6/8/2/1682_inviolata.jpg)

BWV 1027 is played with viola and accordion by Nobuko Imai and Mei Miki, I'm very keen on Imai, but I wouldn't go as far as to actually recommend this CD to anyone!

(http://bis.se/shop/17115/art15/h9313/4459313-origpic-6b77da.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 19, 2018, 10:25:06 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 19, 2018, 08:55:01 AM
Do you also think that the gamba sonatas work better for the balances with an organ?

In principle yes, but the balance gamba/harpsichord is not equally critical, partly because the gamba is a softer instrument than the violin, and also because Bach has given the upper part to the harpsichord and the middle part to the gamba, while in the violin/harpsichord sonatas the violin plays the upper part and the harpsichord the middle part. The tendency to drown the harpsichord will then be less pronounced for the gamba than for the violin.

Quote from: Mandryka
I can see that Jochen Brusch - Sven-Ingvart Mikkelsen play 1019 - I'm curious to hear the recording just because of Mikkelsen, but I can't find it for sale anywhere - if anyone sees it at an affordable price, please let me know.

[img height=289]http://www.jochenbrusch.com/img/cd/sixsonatas.jpg[/im

I am not very impressed by Brusch / Mikkelsen, but I can upload it for you if you want. They use three different organs.

I once (maybe 20 years before Brusch made these recordings) attended a recital with Brusch and my former organ teacher playing BWV 1017, and I recall Brusch doing a better job than on the later recording. But of course still with some romantic tendencies.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 19, 2018, 10:39:21 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 19, 2018, 09:12:49 AM
These are the notes on the 2017 Montero/Boccaccio recording of the gamba sonatas, which I thought were really revelatory performnces.

The accordion recording they refer to is with viola, the artists are Asbjørn Nørgaard and Andreas Borregaard, my impression is that it's exuberant,

Asbjørn Nørgaard is a Danish violist, As far as I recall, he plays the Bach on modern viola and not a gamba. This was along with the accordion the reason why I passed the disc by.

And I think Montero/Boccaccio in their notes to their excellent recording have forgotten the Bijlsma/van Asperen recording which is played on violoncello and organ.

Apropos accordion, have you heard this:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8004821--miniatures
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Jo498 on February 19, 2018, 10:57:27 AM
Is there a violin/organ recording of the pieces you like?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2018, 11:05:38 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 19, 2018, 10:39:21 AM


Apropos accordion, have you heard this:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8004821--miniatures

Not yet!

Quote from: Jo498 on February 19, 2018, 10:57:27 AM
Is there a violin/organ recording of the pieces you like?

Maybe try Alice Pierot / Martin Gester. The organ's not bad but not as characterful as Boccaccio's in the gamba sonatas, this may be partly due to temperament; Pierlot's playing is, from memory, a bit bland and anonymous. But at least the result is listenable.

Quote from: (: premont :) on February 19, 2018, 10:25:06 AM


I am not very impressed by Brusch / Mikkelsen, but I can upload it for you if you want. They use three different organs.



No, don't go to the trouble, you've kind of put me off!
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 19, 2018, 11:09:42 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 19, 2018, 10:57:27 AM
Is there a violin/organ recording of the pieces you like?

Alice Pierot / Martin Gester is actually better than most violin / harpsichord renderings. Simple but deeply felt.

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7966865--bach-j-s-six-sonatas-for-violin-and-organ-2cd

Then there is Michele Auclair / Marie-Claire Alain which is so-so. I have only found it available here:

https://forgottenrecords.com/en/catalogue

https://forgottenrecords.com/en/Auclair-Alain--Bach--408.html

And Jochen Brusch / Sven Ingvart-Mikkelsen I cannot wholeheartedly reccommend.

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 19, 2018, 11:19:00 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 19, 2018, 11:05:38 AM
Maybe try Alice Pierot / Martin Gester. The organ's not bad but not as characterful as Boccaccio's in the gamba sonatas, this may be partly due to temperament; Pierlot's playing is, from memory, a bit bland and anonymous. But at least the result is listenable.

Well, I do not find Pierot anonymous at all. I would also like to recommend her recording of Biber's Rosary sonatas.

Quote from: Mandryka
No, don't go to the trouble, you've kind of put me off!

That was not my intention, but I can not hide, that I think Brusch/Mikkelsen is far from a must hear.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2018, 11:59:40 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 19, 2018, 11:19:00 AM
Well, I do not find Pierot anonymous at all. I would also like to recommend her recording of Biber's Rosary sonatas.



I shall play it again tomorrow when I'm feeling a bit more rested, I feel all done in after listening to a strange mass by Thomas Ashewell, who according to wiki may have been Taverner's teacher.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 20, 2018, 12:12:54 PM
Someone's just sent me a message saying that he thinks there are Mozart sonatas which are called "keyboard sonatas with violin accompaniment" - is that true? The suggestion is that these are clearly dominated by the violin part . . .
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 20, 2018, 12:33:22 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 20, 2018, 12:12:54 PM
Someone's just sent me a message saying that he thinks there are Mozart sonatas which are called "keyboard sonatas with violin accompaniment" - is that true? The suggestion is that these are clearly dominated by the violin part . . .

But Mozart isn't Bach. Bach's sonatas are concieved as triosonatas with equal parts.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: kishnevi on February 20, 2018, 12:47:46 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 20, 2018, 12:12:54 PM
Someone's just sent me a message saying that he thinks there are Mozart sonatas which are called "keyboard sonatas with violin accompaniment" - is that true? The suggestion is that these are clearly dominated by the violin part . . .

I remember reading that was a routine description of violin sonatas in Mozart's day.

But that has no real bearing on the trio sonata of Bach's era.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 20, 2018, 03:05:16 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 19, 2018, 08:55:01 AM
Do you also think that the gamba sonatas work better for the balances with an organ?

I can see that Jochen Brusch - Sven-Ingvart Mikkelsen play 1019 - I'm curious to hear the recording just because of Mikkelsen, but I can't find it for sale anywhere - if anyone sees it at an affordable price, please let me know.

(http://www.jochenbrusch.com/img/cd/sixsonatas.jpg)

Of course





.

There is a peculiar recording of the viola da gamba sonatas with Pietr Wisperwel who plays a cello piccolo with the harpsichord part shared by a keyboard (fortepiano, harpsichord, organ) and a cello playing the bass line. Makes the interaction of the viola da gamba part and the bass line more prominent.

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Wispelwey-P-H01a%5BChannel-CD%5D.jpg)

I like it. I also like the version of BWV1027 for two flutes and continuo. Cello and Piano is also interesting (Argerich and Maisky, for instance).

I think I will seek out a version with organ, since I tend to think the harpsichord is too light for the roll it plays in this music.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Jo498 on February 21, 2018, 12:48:10 AM
No, Mozart's are typically dominated more by the keyboard than the violin. There is even one which originally was a piano sonata and later arranged with violin, I think. So they are both different from the typical baroque sonata (dominating violin + b.c.) and the Bach sonatas which are trio sonatas.
Still, Bach wrote them for different instruments and must have been aware that the effect would never be as "homogeneous" as with an organ trio sonata.
The Gester/Pierot is too expensive for me anyway (esp. for a download) but I am not overly impressed by the soundbits either. It might be the reverb/space but I think what might have been gained in balance/homogeneity is partly lost in clarity and rhythmic "punch". I would have to check them but I never found the recordings with harpsichord I have (Goebel/Hill, Rannou, maybe another one) and piano (Gould/Laredo) all that problematic in the balance department.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on March 02, 2018, 11:21:00 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/Lzlqtpa2wSQ

In this interview Bezuidenhout and Faust, I'm having a lot of difficulty understanding what Bezuidenhout is saying at around 4:25.

He is adamant that Bach is writing for harpsichord and violin. His"argument" seems to rest on the third movement of the e major and the first movement of the b minor, where he asserts that it's "very clear that Bach is writing for the harpsichord", a style of writing which he seems to oppose to three voiced counterpoint, where violin is as important as the keyboard.

In fact I like what Gester does with the third movement of the e major. 

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on March 03, 2018, 12:02:30 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 02, 2018, 11:21:00 AM
He is adamant that Bach is writing for harpsichord and violin. His"argument" seems to rest on the third movement of the e major and the first movement of the b minor, where he asserts that it's "very clear that Bach is writing for the harpsichord", a style of writing which he seems to oppose to three voiced counterpoint, where violin is as important as the keyboard.

There are a few movements in these sonatas, which deviate from the general trio-writing.

B minor first movement with three part writing in the harpsichord almost throughout and some double stops in the violin. The harpsichord part may be a realised continuo part, since the violin seems to have a leading role in this movement.

E major first movement with an aria-like setting of the violin part (the violin again in a leading role) and probably a written out continuo part in the harpsichord.

E major third movement. a trio movement with occasional continuo realisation in the harpsichord part and occasional chordal writing in the violin.

F minor first movement with three part writing in the harpsichord throughout.The three parts in the harpsichord are equal and share identical thematic material. The violin has got its own somewhat different thematic material, and I wouldn't be surprised, if this movement originated as a three part keyboard piece, the violin part having been added at a later stage.

F minor third movement with persistent double stopping in the violin and fast arpeggios (again resembling a written out continuo part) in the harpsichord. So in reality a trio sonata,  the violin playing the two upper parts.

G major second movement with a few added (non-thematic) third part notes in the harpsichord.

G major third movement harpsichord solo.

In their present shape the sonatas are without doubt intended for violin and a keyboard-instrument (harpsichord or organ). The strict trio-writing for most of the movements might point to arrangements from earlier composed trio-sonatas, but the above mentioned deviations from strict trio-writing might (as to these movements) point to other kinds of precursors, most likely sonatas for melody-instrument and continuo.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on March 10, 2018, 04:57:07 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 18, 2018, 09:09:02 AM
In this page the explanation of certato is that the harpsichord parts are written out in the full:

https://voicesofmusic.org/bachviolin.html

So I do not think the term differs much from cembalo obligato - in contrast to cembalo continuo.

In Bach's sonatas the two musicians are equal, just in the same way as the parts are equal in the organ triosonatas.

Most of the existing recordings unfortunately favor the violin. As I wrote some years ago I think Bach had a violin/organ sound in his mind for these pieces, which all except no. 6 are written in sonata di chiesa style. This would create a better balance.

Ensemble SDG have recorded the six sonatas using American neo baroque organs, they're scholar/musicians, the booklet is downloadable here and is very detailed.

http://jsb1685.blogspot.co.uk/p/downloads.html

I won't comment on the performances as I've only just started to listen.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on March 10, 2018, 06:04:01 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 10, 2018, 04:57:07 AM
Ensemble SDG have recorded the six sonatas using American neo baroque organs, they're scholar/musicians, the booklet is downloadable here and is very detailed.

http://jsb1685.blogspot.co.uk/p/downloads.html

I won't comment on the performances as I've only just started to listen.

As far as I can see only vol.1 of the violin/keyboard sonatas has been released, and it is only available in the US:

https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Works-Violin-Keyboard/dp/B01BOOL4DM

The clips display use of harpsichord throughout.

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on March 10, 2018, 06:23:39 AM
Ah it's true that I'd listened only to 1018 and 1019. they say

QuoteSonata in F Minor for Violin and Obbligato Keyboard, BWV 1018 (early version)
Sonata in G Major for Violin and Obbligato Keyboard, BWV 1019 (early version)
It is often assumed that when multiple versions of a work survive from a composer, it is the latest
version that represents the composer's most mature thoughts about the work. In the case of some
composers, however, including Bach, we know that it was not unusual for a work to be rewritten
simply for the occasion of a repeat performance, perhaps with slightly different performing
forces. Among Bach's cantatas there are numerous examples of the composer's setting different
texts to the same (or similar) music; among the instrumental works he both adapted individual
movements for use in cantatas and arranged works for new instrumentation.
The versions of BWV 1018 and 1019 that are usually performed are almost certainly the latest of
the surviving versions. However, three manuscript sources of the sonatas present a version of
BWV 1018 whose Adagio movement is both closely related to and significantly different from
its counterpart; those same manuscript sources present not one, but two distinct versions of BWV
1019 that include several completely different movements. In both cases we believe that the
earliest forms of the works were intended for performance with organ as the keyboard
instrument.
The Adagio of BWV 1018 looks very much like a notated basso continuo realization. The
keyboard part of the early version has surface movement in sixteenth notes, while in the later
version the keyboard is assigned much more complex figuration moving in thirty-second notes.
The early version appears sparse compared with the later. However, the difference in movement
may suggest not a weakness or flaw in the composition but rather a difference of
instrumentation. We are convinced that the early version with its slower surface movement is
perfectly suited to the organ, while the more filled-out continuo realization fits the harpsichord. The adagio character is preserved in each version, while Bach matched the keyboardist's part to
the sonority of each instrument.
Other, more subtle differences might suggest an instrument-specific concern for clarity. For
example, the first movement is headed "Lamento" in the early version, as if to warn an organist
not to interpret its 3/2 meter in a tempo that is too rapid. Furthermore, the second movement,
which in the later version has the quadruple meter C, is notated with the duple meter cut-C in the
early version. While the extensive sixteenth-note movement might have suggested to an organist
a moderate tempo, the alla breve meter is a signal that the "small notes" should not prevent a
spirited performance. In all of the movements Bach appears to have been particularly attentive to
keeping the texture open, without the close intervals in the bass register that would be
unidiomatic to the organ.
As for BWV 1019, scholars have disagreed over the sequence of origin for the two early
versions; it is commonly accepted that the version we perform here is the later of the two, but as
will be outlined below, we propose that the reverse actually corresponds to a historically
plausible scenario. That version survives in two nearly identical manuscripts associated with
Bach's pupil Johann Philipp Kirnberger, both dating from the second half of the eighteenth
century. The other early version is found in a manuscript copied mostly by the composer's
nephew Johann Heinrich Bach, which has been dated to 1725 and claims the specific
instrumentation of harpsichord and violin, with "bass for accompanying viola da gamba if
desired." (The latest version is transmitted in a manuscript by Bach's son-in-law Johann
Christoph Altnickol, dating from 1747–59; each version will hereafter be cited according to its
copyist's name for convenience.)
The Kirnberger version consists of five movements just as the Altnickol version does; however,
its final movement is a repetition of the first movement rather than the new fifth movement
found in the Altnickol version, and its third movement is a Cantabile for violin and keyboard
rather than the Allegro for keyboard solo of Altnickol's. Additionally, the first/fifth movement of
the Kirnberger version has subtle but important differences from its Altnickol counterpart that
parallel the differences between the second movements of the two versions of BWV 1018:
Kirnberger's movement is labeled Presto, rather than Altnickol's Allegro, and is notated in the
meter cut-C, rather than Altnickol's C. These latter two unique elements of the Kirnberger
version led us to explore performance with violin and organ. In the first movement, as described
above for BWV 1018, the combination of tempo and meter suggests an effort to encourage a
brisk pace—a worthwhile gesture on behalf of organists, who might otherwise choose a
moderate speed on the basis of the prevailing sixteenth-note motion. Within the same movement,
certain bass notes present in the Altnickol version are missing from Kirnberger's in places where
performance on the organ would be potentially unclear. It is the inclusion of the Cantabile,
however, that suggests most strongly the appropriateness of organ for the keyboard part.
The music of the Cantabile appears in cantatas from around 1729 and 1730—and may have
originated in a cantata, now lost, written during Bach's Cöthen or Weimar years—in arias scored
for soprano, obbligato violin, and (in one case) string accompaniment in addition to basso
continuo. In the instrumental version of this aria, the role of the solo soprano is given not to the
violin—which, after all, has its own obbligato line to play—but to the keyboardist's right hand.

Herein lies the most convincing reason for performing the sonata with organ: the necessary
cantabile (songlike, vocal) quality is not easily rendered on the harpsichord, but it is entirely
successful when transferred to the organ. With violin and organ, the central Cantabile becomes
instrumentally idiomatic and acoustically satisfying, validating this early version of BWV 1019
as no less a unified whole than the final surviving version.
The J. H. Bach version, on the other hand, consists of six movements, three of which are in
Johann Sebastian Bach's hand, as if Bach interrupted his nephew's copying work to insert them.
Two of these movements appear later in Bach's keyboard partita in E minor, BWV 830. In the
sonata, the first of the two is likewise scored for harpsichord solo; the second, however, is for
violin solo with "bass" accompaniment, and there is reason to believe that the intended
accompanying instrument was viola da gamba alone. Not only does this version of BWV 1019
include new movements that particularly highlight the harpsichord and viola da gamba, but also
the strongly organ-oriented Cantabile of the Kirnberger version is not present here, suggesting
that the piece was revised for a specific performance with specific instruments in mind. In late
1725 Bach returned to Cöthen to perform for his former employer, Prince Leopold, and it is
likely that he would have sought to showcase not only his own skills but also those of his former
colleagues, including the violist da gamba Abel. Considering that Bach had performed a pair of
organ recitals in Dresden in September 1725, in which he is known to have played "soft
instrumental music," it seems not too far-fetched to conjecture that he performed the Kirnberger
"organ" version of the sonata in September and then revised it as the J. H. Bach "harpsichord"
version for a Cöthen performance in December. (It is also possible that in Dresden he performed
a version that was not identical to Kirnberger's, but rather one having the same sequence of
movements, yet whose second movement had the less elaborate keyboard part found in the J. H.
Bach version.) It is because of both the seemingly occasion-specific genesis of the J. H. Bach
version and its expanded instrumentation that we have not included a performance of that version
on the present recording.

They seem to argue that the other sonatas are best with violin and harpsichord.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on March 10, 2018, 06:51:19 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 10, 2018, 06:23:39 AM
Ah it's true that I'd listened only to 1018 and 1019.

So they must be available somewhere?

I have listened to the first two movements of BWV 1017, which they offer on their website. Also here harpsichord is used. Beautiful and expressive violin tone, but rather conventional harpsichord playing.

Quote from: Mandryka
They seem to argue that the other sonatas are best with violin and harpsichord.

Not much logic here, I think.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on March 10, 2018, 07:19:12 AM
Here

https://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Works-Violin-Keyboard/dp/B01MQOCVYF/ref=sr_1_1?s=dmusic&ie=UTF8&qid=1520698626&sr=1-1-mp3-albums-bar-strip-0&keywords=Ensemble+SDG
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on March 10, 2018, 08:22:10 AM
I can now confirm that you need their organ CD, the 1019 is a revelation! Let me know if you have a problem getting it in Denmark and I'll send it to you.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on March 22, 2018, 10:16:22 PM
I didn't know about this organ and violin recording from Lotsberg and Nordstoga.

(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61wwbY-T31L._SS500.jpg)


(Includes the version of 1019 with the keyboard solo, and yes, it works well on an organ  :))
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on April 08, 2018, 03:44:49 AM

(https://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/thumbnails/5991813279620.jpg)

On this recording Ditta Rohmann plays a violoncello piccolo and Laszlo Fassang plays a Hungarian neo-baroque organ with a modified Bradley Lehman tuning. They include a couple of violin sonatas and a flute sonata - I thought that the performances were delightful - very natural and right sounding, modest in that nothing sounded intrusive, and clearly anything but mainstream.

She's recorded the 6th cello suite on the violoncello piccolo, by the way, and she says the experience inspired her to explore the possibilities further.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on May 10, 2018, 02:46:48 PM
I wonder if the lautenwerk could be employed in any of these chamber works. Or is it too soft?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Wakefield on May 10, 2018, 04:55:24 PM
Quote from: milk on May 10, 2018, 02:46:48 PM
I wonder if the lautenwerk could be employed in any of these chamber works. Or is it too soft?

Not the sonatas & partitas, but I love this disk:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51m1mGf%2BKLL.jpg)

https://goo.gl/yP1PLK

The blending between the instruments is, IMO, perfect.  :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on May 11, 2018, 12:21:27 AM
Quote from: Gordo on May 10, 2018, 04:55:24 PM
Not the sonatas & partitas, but I love this disk:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51m1mGf%2BKLL.jpg)

https://goo.gl/yP1PLK

The blending between the instruments is, IMO, perfect.  :)
Huh. Somehow I already have this in my collection but never listened to it. Here I go...
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Wakefield on May 12, 2018, 03:35:04 AM
Quote from: milk on May 11, 2018, 12:21:27 AM
Huh. Somehow I already have this in my collection but never listened to it. Here I go...

Fantastic! You had a true hidden treasure there.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on May 12, 2018, 05:56:03 AM
This is Pletnev with one of the concertos in 2005,  loads of character and I'd say not too self conscious, it just doesn't sound like what I expect a baroque concerto to sound like

https://youtube.com/v/YeAhem1Pbwk
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on May 14, 2018, 01:42:15 AM
Quote from: Gordo on May 10, 2018, 04:55:24 PM
Not the sonatas & partitas, but I love this disk:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51m1mGf%2BKLL.jpg)

https://goo.gl/yP1PLK

The blending between the instruments is, IMO, perfect.  :)

Yes, the harpsichord seems to penetrate the gamba very nicely. Ekkehard Weber recorded some excellent Purcell too.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on May 14, 2018, 02:05:00 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 14, 2018, 01:42:15 AM
Ekkehard Weber recorded some excellent Purcell too.

Not to forget this:

https://www.amazon.de/Deutsche-Consortmusik-Weber/dp/B0000246WS/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1526292220&sr=1-3&keywords=la+gamba+weber
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on August 23, 2018, 09:59:52 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61mnjNV6%2BLL._SS500.jpg)

Goebel Hill Linden, 1019, a short ride in a fast machine. Followed by

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/568/MI0003568147.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Fernandez Alard 1019, unlistenable. Slow.

And then followed by

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71N9Hjp3MrL._SX355_.jpg)

Hobarth Hakkinen 1019. Graceless, ugly, vulgar - pounding harpsichord and mawkish violin. Beer hall Bach.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on August 23, 2018, 10:19:58 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 22, 2018, 10:16:22 PM
I didn't know about this organ and violin recording from Lotsberg and Nordstoga.

(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61wwbY-T31L._SS500.jpg)


(Includes the version of 1019 with the keyboard solo, and yes, it works well on an organ  :))

This is particularly beautiful in the slower movements, I think it's a very worthwhile recording. Having said that, I wish the organ were a bit more in the foreground sometimes, but it don't want to find fault.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: bioluminescentsquid on September 01, 2018, 02:40:55 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 23, 2018, 09:59:52 PM
And then followed by

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71N9Hjp3MrL._SX355_.jpg)

Hobarth Hakkinen 1019. Graceless, ugly, vulgar - pounding harpsichord and mawkish violin. Beer hall Bach.

Really? I liked this one!
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on September 01, 2018, 11:40:02 PM
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on September 01, 2018, 02:40:55 PM
Really? I liked this one!

Well I've tried many times and I can't handle it, for the reasons stated.  I'm not very positive about Hakkinen's recent output -- this and the Byrd. And the violinist on that thing is . . . well . . . graceless and vulgar.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on September 03, 2018, 02:56:41 PM
(http://estore.ladolcevolta.com/280-large_default/js-bach-6-sonates-pour-violon-et-piano-bwv1014-1019.jpg)
This is not for everyone of course; I posted this somewhere else I think. But I find this quite enjoyable. Usually, I have a low tolerance to modern violin but this is done very tastefully IMO. It's certainly not as convincing as several of the great recordings done w/cembalo (the violin is not thick as it should be maybe) but the vibrato is kept to a minimum and there is a baroque feel to it stylistically. Best of all, you can hear the counterpoint with the piano cutting through so clearly in a way I've not heard it before. I think you get/hear something different w/piano. Perhaps someone on here will take a listen and tell me what they think.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on November 15, 2018, 05:24:27 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSxmyfS8mfYMe6ahIY94Ymw4X7P8au6O2nILpWFjXq94jaTS7Ek) these are brilliant.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: JBS on November 15, 2018, 05:31:41 PM
Quote from: milk on November 15, 2018, 05:24:27 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSxmyfS8mfYMe6ahIY94Ymw4X7P8au6O2nILpWFjXq94jaTS7Ek) these are brilliant.

Listening to his recording of the S&Ps for the first time even as I type this.
Title: Album of the year 2018 (for Ras anyway...)
Post by: Ras on November 18, 2018, 04:09:55 AM
This for me is album of the year 2018:

[asin]B077PP5G6G[/asin]
Title: Re: Album of the year 2018 (for Ras anyway...)
Post by: Ras on November 18, 2018, 05:00:50 AM
Quote from: milk on November 18, 2018, 04:47:05 AM
I'm going to be listening to this soon. So it's getting to the end of 2018: looking forward to the best of threads.

I think I know which thread you mean, milk
Is it too early if you start a ''best of 2018" thread now?
Title: Re: Album of the year 2018 (for Ras anyway...)
Post by: milk on November 18, 2018, 03:52:34 PM
Quote from: Ras on November 18, 2018, 05:00:50 AM
I think I know which thread you mean, milk
Is it too early if you start a ''best of 2018" thread now?
I don't want to start a club that would have me as a member.  ;D I'm waiting for someone else.  Edit: honestly I get a little confused about the several different varieties of posts accounting for year-end lists.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Herman on November 19, 2018, 05:47:39 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 02, 2018, 11:21:00 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/Lzlqtpa2wSQ
He is adamant that Bach is writing for harpsichord and violin. His"argument" seems to rest on the third movement of the e major and the first movement of the b minor, where he asserts that it's "very clear that Bach is writing for the harpsichord", a style of writing which he seems to oppose to three voiced counterpoint, where violin is as important as the keyboard.


I agree, it's not quite clear what Bezuidenhout is trying to say, other than that it's fabulous writing, and that he really likes the keynoard part. He ends saying these are specifically chambermusic pieces and not for the concert hall. But that should go without saying.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: aukhawk on November 23, 2018, 09:44:58 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 22, 2018, 10:16:22 PM
I didn't know about this organ and violin recording from Lotsberg and Nordstoga.

(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61wwbY-T31L._SS500.jpg)

(Includes the version of 1019 with the keyboard solo, and yes, it works well on an organ  :))

Rewinding to this - well the good thing is it made me want to listen again, whereas up to now I've always found the music for violin and keyboard rather unremarkable, by the high standards of JS Bach.  Nordstoga is immaculate, as is the organ and the general recording and presentation of it.  The violinist by contrast does not sound a good match - somewhat un-HIP in style I think, I kept hearing irritating mannerisms, vibrato and even occasional portamento.  And yes I'd prefer him just slightly further back in the mix. 
But maybe contrast is the point - a held vibrato-less violin note and a held pipe organ note are perhaps too similar.  Still, I'd like to hear someone try it.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on November 23, 2018, 01:28:58 PM
Quote from: aukhawk on November 23, 2018, 09:44:58 AM
Rewinding to this - well the good thing is it made me want to listen again, whereas up to now I've always found the music for violin and keyboard rather unremarkable, by the high standards of JS Bach.  Nordstoga is immaculate, as is the organ and the general recording and presentation of it.  The violinist by contrast does not sound a good match - somewhat un-HIP in style I think, I kept hearing irritating mannerisms, vibrato and even occasional portamento.  And yes I'd prefer him just slightly further back in the mix. 
But maybe contrast is the point - a held vibrato-less violin note and a held pipe organ note are perhaps too similar.  Still, I'd like to hear someone try it.

I agree with this, th violinist is a problem for me. You can hear Alice Pierrot play it much less romantically with Martin Gester on the organ - it's  good.

I've grown to love these sonatas. In my opinion they really do demand a HIP treatment.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on November 23, 2018, 11:33:31 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on November 23, 2018, 01:28:58 PM
I've grown to love these sonatas. In my opinion they really do demand a HIP treatment.

Tend to agree. Still BTW I enjoy many pre-HIP interpretations like Lautenbacher/Galling, Szeryng/Walcha, Schneiderhan/Karl Richter, Menuhin/Malcolm and Barchet/Veyron-Lacroix.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 18, 2019, 02:22:47 AM
(https://i.scdn.co/image/1f6740fb1cdd98505e54a29f40f63bf8112e1a98)

Really very nice and expressive, pretty middle of the road performances, of the Bach gamba sonatas, nice instruments and well recorded too. So why should anyone be really interested in this rather than any other equally central HIP recording? Well one answer is that the same two performers recorded the same sonatas on the same instruments before, in 1992, here

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/412cuZd6sRL.jpg)

Why have they bothered? Why rerecord it? One answer is that they now want to play the slow movements more expressively. Another is that the tone that Rasi makes seems lighter to me, maybe he's now bowing less like Savall and more like Pandolfo. And I'm sure the improved recording quality is a main factor too.

This is the sort of thing that streaming is good for.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on July 26, 2019, 03:48:57 AM
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/8711252600802.jpg?1438182302)

I think this is very good, I've only just discovered it, light and serious (oxymoron there), intelligent harpsichord part and lyrical violin part, very well balanced in terms of sound. Johannes Leertouwer has also recorded some Mozart violin sonatas, not with van Delft but with a (forte)pianist called Rumiko Harada, and some nice Schumann with Julian Reynolds playing some sort of c19 instrument. All sound like very good things to explore to me - they also recorded the Beethoven.

Clearly Globe, like Novalis, were up to interesting things.

I don't have the booklets for any of these, so I don't know if there's anything interesting therein.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on September 26, 2019, 02:01:23 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81y4ELg8cXL._SS500_.jpg) Jaroslav Tuma and Ivan Zenaty back in 1993. This recording sounds quite good. I don't know this violinist but I'm noticing a bit of a similarity between him and Malgoire in the sound of the bowing. It's a light touch and the violin is similarly atmospheric. I'm not sure what to say about the performances yet beyond my feeling that it's very promising. 
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on September 26, 2019, 05:46:58 AM
Quote from: milk on September 26, 2019, 02:01:23 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81y4ELg8cXL._SS500_.jpg) Jaroslav Tuma and Ivan Zenaty back in 1993. This recording sounds quite good. I don't know this violinist but I'm noticing a bit of a similarity between him and Malgoire in the sound of the bowing. It's a light touch and the violin is similarly atmospheric. I'm not sure what to say about the performances yet beyond my feeling that it's very promising.

Funny old rubato on that sometimes - 1018/i, 1019/ii
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on September 26, 2019, 06:02:41 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 26, 2019, 05:46:58 AM
Funny old rubato on that sometimes - 1018/i, 1019/ii
I like the intimacy of it. I don't like it when people make these pieces too beautiful or grand. They seem like night pieces to me. Pensive. They do make some odd choices with tempo.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on October 07, 2019, 03:30:58 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on September 26, 2019, 05:46:58 AM
Funny old rubato on that sometimes - 1018/i, 1019/ii
I'm listening to this again currently. I'm again curious about the violin and the basis for the way Zenaty plays. Again, it links with Malgoire but I'm interested also in how Tuma/Zenaty are different than Rannou/Malgoire. The violinists have something in common which I don't hear on other recordings. I have to go back to Rannou. So far it seems like Tuma/Zenaty take things slower. Maybe they're gloomier? I'm loving this - if you can't tell.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on October 07, 2019, 10:48:54 PM
The balance between violin and harpsichord is very well done, at least in 1018, which I just heard.  That makes quite a difference to the effect of the music.

The set includes 1021 and 1023, with organ this time. I don't know that music very well at all.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on November 17, 2019, 04:15:57 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 18, 2019, 02:22:47 AM
(https://i.scdn.co/image/1f6740fb1cdd98505e54a29f40f63bf8112e1a98)

Really very nice and expressive, pretty middle of the road performances, of the Bach gamba sonatas, nice instruments and well recorded too. So why should anyone be really interested in this rather than any other equally central HIP recording? Well one answer is that the same two performers recorded the same sonatas on the same instruments before, in 1992, here

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/412cuZd6sRL.jpg)

Why have they bothered? Why rerecord it? One answer is that they now want to play the slow movements more expressively. Another is that the tone that Rasi makes seems lighter to me, maybe he's now bowing less like Savall and more like Pandolfo. And I'm sure the improved recording quality is a main factor too.

This is the sort of thing that streaming is good for.

I've enjoyed revisiting the later recording, it's a good one. And my comments made 9 months ago seem right.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on March 01, 2020, 12:25:04 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91bEhS7gAXL._SX355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on April 11, 2021, 02:33:42 PM
(https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41qOvM9kxpL._SR600%2C315_PIWhiteStrip%2CBottomLeft%2C0%2C35_SCLZZZZZZZ_FMpng_BG255%2C255%2C255.jpg) I don't know why this is. I stumbled upon it by accident.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on May 10, 2021, 10:31:04 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 04, 2021, 12:08:18 AM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODkwNjI1NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2MTcxODc3ODN9)

(Smith is one of my favourite gamba players so I will give it time soon.)

First impressions not positive. Seems to be dominated by the gamba - and the gamba is not played in a very distinguished way to boot.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on May 11, 2021, 04:45:46 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 10, 2021, 10:31:04 PM
First impressions not positive. Seems to be dominated by the gamba - and the gamba is not played in a very distinguished way to boot.

Got a similar impression by listening to clips. Shall pass this by.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on May 25, 2021, 12:27:41 PM
(https://img.discogs.com/ThInSds1_9jEDVYy1VUAyND7QW0=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-1429337-1609068557-9972.jpeg.jpg)

This contains something unusual which I've not seen on a commercial release -- Andrew Manze's transcription of BWV 565. The CD is on symphonyshare if anyone's interested.  (I don't like it!)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on May 25, 2021, 02:43:37 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 25, 2021, 12:27:41 PM
(https://img.discogs.com/ThInSds1_9jEDVYy1VUAyND7QW0=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-1429337-1609068557-9972.jpeg.jpg)

This contains something unusual which I've not seen on a commercial release -- Andrew Manze's transcription of BWV 565. The CD is on symphonyshare if anyone's interested.  (I don't like it!)

It was released by HMF or HMUS several years ago. Nor do I like it (the 565) but find it more plauible and listenable than the absurd flute version you posted elsewhere.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on May 25, 2021, 11:38:20 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on July 26, 2019, 03:48:57 AM
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/8711252600802.jpg?1438182302)

I think this is very good, I've only just discovered it, light and serious (oxymoron there), intelligent harpsichord part and lyrical violin part, very well balanced in terms of sound. Johannes Leertouwer has also recorded some Mozart violin sonatas, not with van Delft but with a (forte)pianist called Rumiko Harada, and some nice Schumann with Julian Reynolds playing some sort of c19 instrument. All sound like very good things to explore to me - they also recorded the Beethoven.

Clearly Globe, like Novalis, were up to interesting things.

I don't have the booklets for any of these, so I don't know if there's anything interesting therein.

I have Leertouwer's Schumann and Beethoven - more than excellent!  :)
And his Mozart concertos, though that's not on Globe.

Would be interested to hear his Bach, though I always considered him to be a Classical era violinist.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2021, 09:49:51 AM
Quote from: Que on May 25, 2021, 11:38:20 PM

Would be interested to hear his Bach, though I always considered him to be a Classical era violinist.

Don't know about classical era, I think he plays violin in the Bach like he's playing Brahms. But it's pleasant enough and Menno van Delft is very good indeed, imaginative alert harpsichord playing
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on May 26, 2021, 10:15:54 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2021, 09:49:51 AM
Don't know about classical era, I think he plays violin in the Bach like he's playing Brahms. But it's pleasant enough and Menno van Delft is very good indeed, imaginative alert harpsichord playing

That's what I kind of expected.

Every violinist wants to play these pieces, but IMO the real stand outs are genuine Baroque violinists.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 05, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Well, I've begun to listen selectively to my JS Bach collection (about 260 discs!) - will concentrate on the instrumental music - today the Gamba Sonatas were up for a listen - back around 2010, there was a lot of discussion of these works in this thread, and I settled on the ones shown below (not sure that Wieland Kuijken came up much then but added him later) - still enjoy all (some reviews attached for those 'new' to these works and/or performances) - there was a new one after reviewing this thread w/ Vittoria Ghielmi (viola da gamba) & Lorenzo Ghielmi (harpsichord/fortepiano) that had excellent comments (available at PrestoMusic) - SO, not much discussion here in a long while on the gamba sonatas - any new thoughts, more recently recorded favorites, or other instrumentation?  Dave :)

(https://i.discogs.com/sTMeNzZ9cS41jyGEPuUP2V_fBgVwGB7oFQlGbn5iUjg/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:442/w:500/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWltYWdlcy9SLTEy/OTcxNDg5LTE1NjQw/NzgyNzEtMTQ2MC5q/cGVn.jpeg) (https://cdn-o.fishpond.com/0001/098/736/1528455136/original.jpeg) (https://i.discogs.com/7dank7dH0Z8c6f4iIsoDGK3vy5W-5xkvmyI1jXhdOWE/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:596/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWltYWdlcy9SLTEz/NzI3MTI3LTE1NjI0/MjcwMDQtOTkzMi5q/cGVn.jpeg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91zHNu0YUTL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on February 06, 2022, 12:25:49 AM
Dave, you afe already spoilt for choice! :)
I'm quite happy with what I have: Weber/Hill, Savall/Koopman and Ghielmi/Ghielmi.
The Ghielmis is definitely nice because of the different angle, but wouldn't be a primary choice.

I recently listened to a more "recent"recording on Spotify that I really liked:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwNDgzMS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MjIyODc3NDJ9)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Jo498 on February 06, 2022, 12:50:07 AM
Can anyone comment on the gamba/harpsichord suites with Harnoncourt/tachezi? I am not sure I have more than one odd recording of Harnoncourt actually playing gamba/cello solo (unless in a larger ensemble in the Concentus musicus) and I wonder if this is interesting or a somewhat crude early HIP effort...?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 06, 2022, 12:59:11 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 05, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Well, I've begun to listen selectively to my JS Bach collection (about 260 discs!) - will concentrate on the instrumental music - today the Gamba Sonatas were up for a listen - back around 2010, there was a lot of discussion of these works in this thread, and I settled on the ones shown below (not sure that Wieland Kuijken came up much then but added him later) - still enjoy all (some reviews attached for those 'new' to these works and/or performances) - there was a new one after reviewing this thread w/ Vittoria Ghielmi (viola da gamba) & Lorenzo Ghielmi (harpsichord/fortepiano) that had excellent comments (available at PrestoMusic) - SO, not much discussion here in a long while on the gamba sonatas - any new thoughts, more recently recorded favorites, or other instrumentation?  Dave :)

(https://i.discogs.com/sTMeNzZ9cS41jyGEPuUP2V_fBgVwGB7oFQlGbn5iUjg/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:442/w:500/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWltYWdlcy9SLTEy/OTcxNDg5LTE1NjQw/NzgyNzEtMTQ2MC5q/cGVn.jpeg) (https://cdn-o.fishpond.com/0001/098/736/1528455136/original.jpeg) (https://i.discogs.com/7dank7dH0Z8c6f4iIsoDGK3vy5W-5xkvmyI1jXhdOWE/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:596/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWltYWdlcy9SLTEz/NzI3MTI3LTE1NjI0/MjcwMDQtOTkzMi5q/cGVn.jpeg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91zHNu0YUTL._SS500_.jpg)

I think the very new one with Sarah Cunningham and Dicky Egarr is really very good indeed, when I listen to it, it effaces the memory of all others.

As far as your question about instrumentation is concerned, have you heard Bylsma and Asperen - cello and organ? Not a recommendation, but it is something you may like more than me.

By the way, did Harnoncourt record this music?  He wrote a very good essay on it.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Jo498 on February 06, 2022, 01:37:08 AM
Yes, he did with Tachezi, I believe around 1970 or so. I just asked about them, I'd have hoped you had heard them... ;)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 06, 2022, 01:51:29 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 05, 2022, 01:45:46 PM
Well, I've begun to listen selectively to my JS Bach collection (about 260 discs!) - will concentrate on the instrumental music - today the Gamba Sonatas were up for a listen - back around 2010, there was a lot of discussion of these works in this thread, and I settled on the ones shown below (not sure that Wieland Kuijken came up much then but added him later) - still enjoy all (some reviews attached for those 'new' to these works and/or performances) - there was a new one after reviewing this thread w/ Vittoria Ghielmi (viola da gamba) & Lorenzo Ghielmi (harpsichord/fortepiano) that had excellent comments (available at PrestoMusic) - SO, not much discussion here in a long while on the gamba sonatas - any new thoughts, more recently recorded favorites, or other instrumentation?  Dave :)

(https://i.discogs.com/sTMeNzZ9cS41jyGEPuUP2V_fBgVwGB7oFQlGbn5iUjg/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:442/w:500/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWltYWdlcy9SLTEy/OTcxNDg5LTE1NjQw/NzgyNzEtMTQ2MC5q/cGVn.jpeg) (https://cdn-o.fishpond.com/0001/098/736/1528455136/original.jpeg) (https://i.discogs.com/7dank7dH0Z8c6f4iIsoDGK3vy5W-5xkvmyI1jXhdOWE/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:596/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWltYWdlcy9SLTEz/NzI3MTI3LTE1NjI0/MjcwMDQtOTkzMi5q/cGVn.jpeg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91zHNu0YUTL._SS500_.jpg)
For a long time, Pandolfo and Hunninger were my very favorite. It's been a while so I'm not sure how I'd feel now.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 06, 2022, 01:53:19 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 06, 2022, 01:37:08 AM
Yes, he did with Tachezi, I believe around 1970 or so. I just asked about them, I'd have hoped you had heard them... ;)


https://www.discogs.com/release/12694928-Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Nikolaus-Harnoncourt-Herbert-Tachezi-Gambensonaten-Gamba-Sonatas-Triosonate-G-

Oh yes -- have I heard that? I can't remember! I'm downloading them now.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Ras on February 06, 2022, 02:00:00 AM
RE: Tachezi/Harnoncourt:

On Spotify I could only find the 1. movement of BWV 1029:

https://open.spotify.com/track/7ojiNj3TDvw1Mh5rgqXTgM?si=77cc5c54f8dd47b5
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 06, 2022, 04:23:47 AM
Quote from: Que on February 06, 2022, 12:25:49 AM
primary choice.

I recently listened to a more "recent"recording on Spotify that I really liked:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwNDgzMS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MjIyODc3NDJ9)

Yes a nice and lively played version with a fine balance between the gamba and the right hand harpsichord part. On the other hand the left hand harpsichord part is in places a bit underexposed.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 06, 2022, 04:37:32 AM
I own quite a lot of recordings of the gamba sonatas, at least 25+. The ones which have impressed me the most from a musical point of view are these:

Ekkehard Weber / Robert Hill (Ars Musici)

Hille Perl / Michael Behringer (Haenssler)

Emily Walhout / Byron Schenkman (Centaur)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 06, 2022, 09:00:19 AM
Thanks ALL for the comments - decided that I wanted to add just one and picked the Ghielmi brothers (on sale at PrestoMusic) mainly for a different slant on the performances w/ use of a fortepiano.  Dave :)

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 07, 2022, 07:34:02 AM
Re-post from listening thread - unlikely to receive much if any attention there, but those interested in JS Bach's flute sonatas might want to comment; over decades I've culled and accumulated an odd collection - now listening to the 2nd disc of Piccinini w/ guitar transcriptions, really quite enjoyable (and as I recall received some excellent reviews).  Dave :)

QuoteBach, JS - Flute Sonatas on the electic collection below: 1) Lisa Beznosiuk - the period instrument recording; 2) Hansgeorg Schmeiser on a modern flute but w/ a harpsichord and cello; 3) Michala Petri on recorder w/ viola da gamba & harpsichord; and 4) Marina Piccinini on a modern instrument w/ a guitar duo in transcriptions (really quite enjoyable!).  There are 6-9 'works' on each recording and of course continued debate as to authenticity of these works, i.e. how many are from the hand of Papa Bach, some discussion HERE (https://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVD/BWV1030-1035-Gen3.htm) - Dave :)

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Aug02/bach_flute_hyp.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71x49Wj+Z3L._SL1055_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81ZXddXBLJL._SS500_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61xvtyL9fIL._SL1200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on February 07, 2022, 09:03:15 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 07, 2022, 07:34:02 AM
Re-post from listening thread - unlikely to receive much if any attention there, but those interested in JS Bach's flute sonatas might want to comment; over decades I've culled and accumulated an odd collection - now listening to the 2nd disc of Piccinini w/ guitar transcriptions, really quite enjoyable (and as I recall received some excellent reviews).  Dave :)

Well, this is not exactly core Bach repotoire for me so I never got beyond Frans Brüggen's classic performance:

(https://i.discogs.com/JlRtJmDJdjuEcfvdwZG2niRnfk4ZfSOO-phY8BgYzIQ/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:598/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWltYWdlcy9SLTEw/NTIzNzA3LTE0OTkx/OTE5ODMtOTIzMi5q/cGVn.jpeg)

But this one looks quite fancy:  :D

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81ZXddXBLJL.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 07, 2022, 09:38:48 AM
Quote from: Que on February 07, 2022, 09:03:15 AM
Well, this is not exactly core Bach repotoire for me so I never got beyond Frans Brüggen's classic performance:

(https://i.discogs.com/JlRtJmDJdjuEcfvdwZG2niRnfk4ZfSOO-phY8BgYzIQ/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:598/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWltYWdlcy9SLTEw/NTIzNzA3LTE0OTkx/OTE5ODMtOTIzMi5q/cGVn.jpeg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81ZXddXBLJL.jpg)

But this one looks quite fancy:  :D


Que - believe that I use to have the Büggen et al but must have done some culling -  ::)  But Petri is as good as always, as are the two others, especially like Perl - reviews attached if you want to read any - Dave :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 15, 2022, 08:48:23 AM
Sonatas Violin & Harpsichord - next up for review the 4 recordings in my collection shown below - listening to the first disc of each this morning and looking at reviews, which are attached - I'm liking the first 3 a lot but not sure about the violinist on the ZigZag recording w/ the fabulous Balndine Rannou, possibly a replacement?  There are a LOT of recordings of these works, both old and new - so will be curious about some of the more recent favorites in the forum - post comments please.  Dave :)

P.S.  there are 3 reviews of the Mullova/Dantone performance, 2 TOP ratings and a scathing attack on MusicWeb by Johan van Veen - I like the disc as did ClassicsToday and AllMusic!

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/814Q6ajIsrL._SS500_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71N9Hjp3MrL._SL1500_.jpg) (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk1NTcwNC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MzYxOTYwNDF9) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51cKubD+5kL._SX355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 15, 2022, 11:30:08 AM
Two which may be interesting for you to hear are Guido de Neve/Philippe Agsteribbe and Martin Gester/Alice Pierot. It doesn't look as though either are on spotify.

Maybe also try Ensemble SDG (Start with their CD3) and Leila Schayegh/Jörg Halubek

One which is a bit marmite is  Ivan Zenaty/Jaroslav Tuma -- so it's probably not a bad idea to suck it and see.

Mario Brunello/Roberto Loreggian/Francesco Galligioni is very unusual and so one to suck too.

I note in passing that there are two very promising new ones which I haven't myself explored yet -- Fabio Bonizzoni/Ryo Terakado (you can hear it on spotify. Terakado's recording with Siebe Henstra is excellent, and also on spotify.) and Petra Müllejans/Sabine Bauer (you can hear it on Bandcamp)  Gottfried von der Goltz/Annekatrin Beller/Torsten Johann will release one in early March -- so it may be worth waiting until you can hear it.



Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 15, 2022, 01:48:08 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 15, 2022, 11:30:08 AM
Two which may be interesting for you to hear are Guido de Neve/Philippe Agsteribbe and Martin Gester/Alice Pierot. It doesn't look as though either are on spotify.

Maybe also try Ensemble SDG (Start with their CD3) and Leila Schayegh/Jörg Halubek

One which is a bit marmite is  Ivan Zenaty/Jaroslav Tuma -- so it's probably not a bad idea to suck it and see.

Mario Brunello/Roberto Loreggian/Francesco Galligioni is very unusual and so one to suck too.

I note in passing that there are two very promising new ones which I haven't myself explored yet -- Fabio Bonizzoni/Ryo Terakado (you can hear it on spotify. Terakado's recording with Siebe Henstra is excellent, and also on spotify.) and Petra Müllejans/Sabine Bauer (you can hear it on Bandcamp)  Gottfried von der Goltz/Annekatrin Beller/Torsten Johann will release one in early March -- so it may be worth waiting until you can hear it.

Hi Mandryka - again you astound!  ;D  How do you remember all of these performances, many of which are obscure to me -  ???

BUT, I've looked on Spotify and Amazon USA to see what I may listen to and/or possibly purchase - NOW, I'm in the market to just replace the one set mentioned previously, i.e. don't want to increase the number - quoted below is what I could find out in my searching (up to your 'new ones') - to me the Loreggian set w/ the extra instrument is of interest so will listen on Spotify; Ensemble SDG is also available for streaming there. Know Tuma but cannot fine the recording - is he on clavichord?  I just decided to dump his WTC on clavichord after a listen this morning - sounds like Schroeder from Peanuts on a dinky toy - just me (and I do have a handful of clavichord CDs which I enjoy).  Thanks again for all of the suggestions - Dave :)

QuoteGuido de Neve/Philippe Agsteribbe - not on Spotify nor at Amazon USA
Martin Gester/Alice Pierot - same as above
Ensemble SDG - 3 Volumes on Spotify; MP3 on Amazon USA
Ivan Zenaty/Jaroslav Tuma - know both but not much luck?
Brunello/Loreggian/Galligioni - know them; on Spotify & Amazon but not cheap?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 15, 2022, 09:03:24 PM
SDG use organ in CD3 and harpsichord in the other CDs. See if this Spotify link works for you

https://open.spotify.com/artist/30OeUkpsD9OcbKKFsASQyJ

Don't forget Leila Schayegh/Jörg Halubek - harpsichord but inspired by Mattheson on the expressive implications of keys in baroque music, like Guido de Neve, but IMO not as good.  Tuma uses harpsichord.

If you're interested in piano try Capuçon/Fray. And try Ryo Terakado with Henstra on Denon! I played it last night and thought it was lovely.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 15, 2022, 09:50:26 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 15, 2022, 08:48:23 AM(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51cKubD+5kL._SX355_.jpg)
Malgoire and the Tuma set have uniquely mild violin sounds. I love them. Mandyrka suggested Tuma to me as well. Other violinists go for large singing sounds. I guess. I don't really know about how the violin is taught but I find this technique to be very pleasing.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 15, 2022, 11:52:22 PM
By the way, listening to Gester and Pierot this morning it occurred to me that you need to have a recording with organ - I'm not sure ensemble SDG is the one. The way the organ sustains, and the way it complements the tone of the violin, transforms the music into something else. Listening to 1019a. It looks as though this is from the set

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EcIw0zusG2k

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on February 16, 2022, 01:36:18 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 15, 2022, 11:52:22 PM
By the way, listening to Gester and Pierot this morning it occurred to me that you need to have a recording with organ - I'm not sure ensemble SDG is the one. The way the organ sustains, and the way it complements the tone of the violin, transforms the music into something else. Listening to 1019a. It looks as though this is from the set

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EcIw0zusG2k

It's on Spotify.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Selig on February 16, 2022, 02:06:43 AM
Quote from: Que on February 16, 2022, 01:36:18 AM
It's on Spotify.

The whole thing? Maybe geo-restricted, I can't find it
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 16, 2022, 03:21:37 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 15, 2022, 11:52:22 PM
By the way, listening to Gester and Pierot this morning it occurred to me that you need to have a recording with organ - I'm not sure ensemble SDG is the one. The way the organ sustains, and the way it complements the tone of the violin, transforms the music into something else. Listening to 1019a. It looks as though this is from the set

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EcIw0zusG2k
The intimacy is really lost in this way. Maybe I'm not hearing the benefit yet. There's a strange dark intimacy in these particular works IMO or at least there can be. I think of it as night music or rainy day music. I guess there's all sorts of things to bring out in Bach and all sorts of ways to appreciate it.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: JBS on February 16, 2022, 03:36:09 AM
Not a new one, but my favorite (granted this isn't the part of Bach's music I turn to often)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61KkOgGFOeL._SY780_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 16, 2022, 03:44:52 AM
I would add Schayegh & Halubek. Schayegh gives a very detailed and interesting performance, vis a vis her ornamentation. As far as piano, I'd suggest Dauteicourt/Pohjonen as well.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 16, 2022, 05:05:40 AM
Quote from: milk on February 16, 2022, 03:21:37 AM
The intimacy is really lost in this way. Maybe I'm not hearing the benefit yet. There's a strange dark intimacy in these particular works IMO or at least there can be. I think of it as night music or rainy day music. I guess there's all sorts of things to bring out in Bach and all sorts of ways to appreciate it.

It's only a little organ! Not a big cathedral beast.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 16, 2022, 06:23:55 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2022, 05:05:40 AM
It's only a little organ! Not a big cathedral beast.
I'll listen again to that. Don't you think it gives it a more magisterial feeling? Maybe not. I'll give it a go. I'm listening to Capucon and Fray again. I'm more impressed now that I'm listening on headphones. Capucon does have a beautiful sound.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: aukhawk on February 16, 2022, 06:47:25 AM
I'm also rather partial to organ accompaniment in this music:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71KN8asD5SL._SS500_.jpg)
Bach Sonatas for Violin and Keyboard - Edouard, Eichelberger
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 16, 2022, 07:09:26 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on February 16, 2022, 06:47:25 AM
I'm also rather partial to organ accompaniment in this music:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71KN8asD5SL._SS500_.jpg)
Bach Sonatas for Violin and Keyboard - Edouard, Eichelberger

Forgot about that!
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 16, 2022, 07:39:32 AM
OK Guys - over the last few days I've been listening to 'parts' of the first 5 recordings below on Spotify; the Pinnock/Podger I've heard before and believe the ones I own are their equal if not better.  Many of these seem to be OOP and mostly available as DLs, but I'll search Amazon, PrestoMusic, BRO and elsewhere to see what may be available as a physical purchase.

As mentioned before, I'm looking for just one or two additions (i.e. after I cull out Rannou) - different instruments (such as piano substitution or addition of B.C. strings might be preferred over another harpsichord repetition) - I listened to most of the Bruello/Loreggian recording and enjoyed but felt that the sound was 'too busy' in parts w/ all of the instruments - not sure that I'd enjoy repeated hearings?  Ensemble SDG is on 3 discs and only DLs although I did like the organ - cannot remember others w/ organ replacing harpsichord - any help?  Finally, the Capucon/Fray is of interest but believe just a single disc of 4 of the works - another recording of them available?  If I did want another violin/harpsichord, Zenaty/Tuma or Schayegh/Halubek would do fine, especially the latter - thanks again for all of the help. Dave :)

(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b27373f50f22866cc709d4668e97)  (https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ic/sq/x18cy7wp5sqic_600.jpg)  (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41-oqt0tkIS._SY445_SX342_QL70_ML2_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81FLIiHwIhL._SL1500_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81V9xvgZ0bL._SL1500_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61KkOgGFOeL._SY780_.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on February 16, 2022, 08:56:53 AM
Quote from: Selig on February 16, 2022, 02:06:43 AM
The whole thing? Maybe geo-restricted, I can't find it

https://open.spotify.com/album/4Q3x7ytp4aG8m62zlNvwVm
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on February 16, 2022, 09:03:05 AM
Quote from: Que on February 07, 2022, 09:03:15 AM
But this one looks quite fancy:  :D

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81ZXddXBLJL.jpg)

Perhaps it looked fancy, but it didn't sound fancy...

I didn't realise this is an arrangement in which the flute is replaced by a recorder. The result sounds rather clumsy to my ears.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 16, 2022, 11:00:55 AM
Quote from: Que on February 16, 2022, 09:03:05 AM
Perhaps it looked fancy, but it didn't sound fancy...

I didn't realise this is an arrangement in which the flute is replaced by a recorder. The result sounds rather clumsy to my ears.

Well, sorry and hope that you listened on Spotify rather than made a purchase - I still enjoyed the recording but prefer the flute - for those wondering and also interested in the recording, I've reattached the reviews.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on February 16, 2022, 11:03:58 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 16, 2022, 11:00:55 AM
Well, sorry and hope that you listened on Spotify rather than made a purchase - I still enjoyed the recording but prefer the flute - for those wondering and also interested in the recording, I've reattached the reviews.  Dave :)

Oh yes, it was on Spotify!   :)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 16, 2022, 11:36:22 AM
Quote from: Que on February 16, 2022, 08:56:53 AM
https://open.spotify.com/album/4Q3x7ytp4aG8m62zlNvwVm
Only two tracks.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Que on February 16, 2022, 12:01:09 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2022, 11:36:22 AM
Only two tracks.

When I open it on Spotify, it opens and plays the entire album.  Must be Brexit..  ;)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Selig on February 16, 2022, 04:43:22 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2022, 11:36:22 AM
Only two tracks.

I can count myself lucky because I get to hear a full four tracks.

Enough to say that this is LOVELY, loving the A major Presto
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 16, 2022, 07:24:32 PM
Quote from: Selig on February 16, 2022, 04:43:22 PM
I can count myself lucky because I get to hear a full four tracks.

Enough to say that this is LOVELY, loving the A major Presto

Pierot is very good, I listened to her Biber yesterday.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: aukhawk on February 17, 2022, 02:42:10 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 16, 2022, 07:39:32 AM
Ensemble SDG is on 3 discs and only DLs although I did like the organ - cannot remember others w/ organ replacing harpsichord - any help?

Well there's also Nordstoga & Lotsberg - and I mention the organist first because that's how it comes across in the recording   It's beautiful music in its way but the violinist is a bit recessed in the mix and sounds a bit 'second fiddle' in the middle of a big empty church.  I think Edouard & Eichelberger that I mentioned upthread is a much more interesting recording - though often there is more tremolo in the organ than there is vibrato in the violin - a strange reversal.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 17, 2022, 02:51:33 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 16, 2022, 07:39:32 AM

after I cull out Rannou

😢😭😭😢🥺😩😩 if you don't like Rannou then I doubt you'd like Zenaty/Tuma
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 17, 2022, 05:05:38 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on February 17, 2022, 02:42:10 AM
Well there's also Nordstoga & Lotsberg - and I mention the organist first because that's how it comes across in the recording   It's beautiful music in its way but the violinist is a bit recessed in the mix and sounds a bit 'second fiddle' in the middle of a big empty church.  I think Edouard & Eichelberger that I mentioned upthread is a much more interesting recording - though often there is more tremolo in the organ than there is vibrato in the violin - a strange reversal.

There are also two MI recordings with organ, Michelle Auclair / Marie-Claire Alain and Jochen Brusch / Svend Mikkelsen, but honestly I don't find them competitive.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 18, 2022, 12:33:21 PM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 06, 2022, 09:00:19 AM
Thanks ALL for the comments - decided that I wanted to add just one and picked the Ghielmi brothers (on sale at PrestoMusic) mainly for a different slant on the performances w/ use of a fortepiano.  Dave :)  RE: Gamba Sonatas

Well, I'm confused and may have purchased the wrong Ghielmi brothers recording?  I was interested in the fortepiano and assumed that it was the KB instrument for all of the works - the first pic below is what I ordered from PrestoMusic on the Passacaille label, and landed today; the booklet notes described Lorenzo using harpsichord and fortepiano (both copies by Andrea Restelli, Milan); the 3 'gamba sonatas' are intermixed w/ 3 Preludes & Fugues from WTC II - in listening my feeling is that the Sonatas are on harpsichord and the P&Fs are on fortepiano - the recording date is 2011.

Now, in looking at the second image and reading David Vernier's review of this recording in Classics Today (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-15518/), the same mixture of works is described, stated to be recorded in 1997 w/ a fortepiano after Silbermann - so appears that these two bros put down the same program 14+ years apart and used the KBs differently on another label?  I sent an email to Lorenzo's website but not sure if there will be a response?  Any clarification from those who may know both of these recordings?  Thanks.  Dave :)

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAzMjk0Ny4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MjkwMDQ3OTR9)  (https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-NonVocal-BIG/Ghielmi-V-H01-2a%5BArs-Musici-CD%5D.jpg)

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 19, 2022, 12:44:25 AM
RE: Gamba Sonatas

It's about two different recordings. In the Ars Music recording only fortepiano is used. And also two of the WTC pieces differ.

See Bach Cantatas website here:

https://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Ghielmi-V.htm
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 19, 2022, 07:31:30 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 19, 2022, 12:44:25 AM
RE: Gamba Sonatas

It's about two different recordings. In the Ars Music recording only fortepiano is used. And also two of the WTC pieces differ.

See Bach Cantatas website here: https://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Ghielmi-V.htm

Well, understood two different labels, years, and recordings but was curious how the two KB instruments were used on the 'newer' CD that I purchased - WELL, surprise - Lorenzo Ghielmi answered my email the next day, as quoted below - so, of the 6 works on the recording, the first four are performed on the fortepiano and last two on the harpsichord.

For those interested, the fortepiano (pic below from link in email) is a copy by Andrea Restelli (Milan, 1996) after Gottfried Silbermann (1749); the harpsichord also a copy by Andrea Restelli (Milan, 2003) after Christian Vater (Hanover, 1738) - the discussion in the link was in Italian - I've translated to English for those not conversant in the language (the web translation tools are amazing!) and now in the attachment.  Dave :)

QuoteHallo. I recorded the G and D sonatas with piano and the g minor with harpsichord. The WTK I with Harpsichord and the WTK II with piano....
In the booklet you find information.

On Bach and the piano here:  https://lorenzoghielmi.com/johann-sebastian-bach-e-il-pianoforte/

Cordiali saluti - LG

(https://i2.wp.com/lorenzoghielmi.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/il20fortepiano20Silbermann201749.jpg?w=1024&ssl=1)  (https://img.discogs.com/VpgAnuw0sloyqlt2d2-dOvWv6jg=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/A-874477-1325509461.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 19, 2022, 09:46:45 AM
Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 19, 2022, 07:31:30 AM
Well, understood two different labels, years, and recordings but was curious how the two KB instruments were used on the 'newer' CD that I purchased ...

Well, I didn't realize, that this was the problem, since it could be solved by a simple listening test.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 21, 2022, 12:16:55 AM
Am I right that there are only two recordings of the violin and keyboard music with piano? - the Capucon/Fray and the Dauteicourt/Pohjonen?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 21, 2022, 12:37:11 AM
I'm sure there are lots. Michelle Makarski, whose manner I like, did one with Keith Jarrett, whose manner I also like,  for example.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 21, 2022, 02:53:29 AM
(https://i.scdn.co/image/ab67616d0000b27306fd0298237f38c5739fc3e8) This has chamber organ. I'm not sure it has been discussed. This has a mild and subdued quality to it. I might say more about it later.
Quote from: Mandryka on February 21, 2022, 12:37:11 AM
I'm sure there are lots. Michelle Makarski, whose manner I like, did one with Keith Jarrett, whose manner I also like,  for example.
Makarski is strangely well in the background on that recording. Just an observation. It might be good otherwise. I know you weren't necessarily recommending it. But I'm listening to the Tognetti. I didn't know him. He's mellow. The chamber organ adds to that effect. In the E Major, especially the adagio ma non tanto, they switch to harpsichord but the use of Gamba as obbligato (Daniel Yeadon) adds something sweet and forlorn. In the C minor they go back to the chamber organ and it really, again, makes for a mellow and mournful emotion.
This recording really appeals to me. I like Tognetti, again, for his mildness. 
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41AC1QWRYSL.jpg)
It's really hard to get used to listening to modern violin after l enjoying HIP baroque. To me, it's just jarring and ultimately not as good. The tones of the two instruments (piano and violin) don't even mix together somehow.
(https://angartwork.akamaized.net/?id=122983819&size=640)
With less vibrato, this works a bit better. ETA much better!
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 21, 2022, 03:38:20 AM
Quote from: milk on February 21, 2022, 02:53:29 AM
Makarski is strangely well in the background on that recording.

Not at all on the equipment I'm using, with the Spotify stream. These things must be able to modify the balance. I'm quite surprised at that actually, it's sort of quite important.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 21, 2022, 03:45:01 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on February 21, 2022, 03:38:20 AM
Not at all on the equipment I'm using, with the Spotify stream. These things must be able to modify the balance. I'm quite surprised at that actually, it's sort of quite important.
I might try it on headphones some time then. I really do like it when performances are geared towards intimacy. 
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 21, 2022, 06:09:12 AM
Keith Jarrett does a nice job of his solo in 1019
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Selig on February 21, 2022, 07:50:23 AM
Quote from: milk on February 21, 2022, 12:16:55 AM
Am I right that there are only two recordings of the violin and keyboard music with piano? - the Capucon/Fray and the Dauteicourt/Pohjonen?

Viktoria Mullova and Bruno Canino did nos. 1, 2 & 6 at least. I remember liking Canino's solo in 1019
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on February 28, 2022, 06:45:57 AM
Quote from: aukhawk on February 16, 2022, 06:47:25 AM
I'm also rather partial to organ accompaniment in this music:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71KN8asD5SL._SS500_.jpg)
Bach Sonatas for Violin and Keyboard - Edouard, Eichelberger

I just listened to 1018. I don't think Odile Édouard's style works for me in 18th century music, somehow the articulation takes away the life of the music and the whole thing sounds self conscious and heavy. And the last movement sounded almost chaotic to me. I didn't like it much when it came out and I feel the same today.  I'm sticking with Pierot and Gester.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Jo498 on February 28, 2022, 07:24:12 AM
Quote from: milk on February 21, 2022, 12:16:55 AM
Am I right that there are only two recordings of the violin and keyboard music with piano? - the Capucon/Fray and the Dauteicourt/Pohjonen?

There must be a few older ones, maybe not all complete, although Menuhin in the 1950s already has harpsichord accompaniment.
There is Laredo/Gould and more recently Zimmermann/Pace
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 28, 2022, 12:31:41 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 28, 2022, 07:24:12 AM
There must be a few older ones, maybe not all complete, although Menuhin in the 1950s already has harpsichord accompaniment.
There is Laredo/Gould and more recently Zimmermann/Pace

IIRC there is a complete recording with Menuhin and Louis Kentner at the piano.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on February 28, 2022, 04:24:32 PM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 28, 2022, 07:24:12 AM
There must be a few older ones, maybe not all complete, although Menuhin in the 1950s already has harpsichord accompaniment.
There is Laredo/Gould and more recently Zimmermann/Pace
I've listened to a few now, including Zoltán Kocsis and I forget who. I just can't stand them from the very first. 1014 with this vibrato violin fading in sounds ridiculous to me. I'll stick with HIP. These pieces of music are the prime examples of why non-HIP fails when it does fail or why certain pieces of music just don't sound good on moderns.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on February 28, 2022, 09:55:22 PM
Quote from: milk on February 28, 2022, 04:24:32 PM
I've listened to a few now, including Zoltán Kocsis and I forget who. I just can't stand them from the very first. 1014 with this vibrato violin fading in sounds ridiculous to me. I'll stick with HIP. These pieces of music are the prime examples of why non-HIP fails when it does fail or why certain pieces of music just don't sound good on moderns.

I think it's too categorical to reject all non-HIP recordings in that way. Have you heard Lautenbacher / Galling, Barchet / Veyron-Lacroix, Szeryng / Walcha, Schneiderhan / K. Richter and Menuhin / Malcolm?
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Jo498 on February 28, 2022, 11:35:59 PM
All of these use harpsichord, so should be considered proto-informed, I'd say.  To my shame I cannot remember if it was the piano with Kentner or the harpsichord with Malcolm because it was a pirate/grey re-issue CD ("the 50s" or so) but I think it was the issue shown below, so that would have been Kentner (and I cannot find a cheapo grey reissue of the Menuhin/Malcolm). I encountered this in an apartment I lived in for a few months more than 10 years ago while the original tenant was on a sabbatical, so it was his disc and I never owned it but I was positively surprised. Although, back then, I was maybe just happy to have any good music because I had not brought anything and was not able to stream etc.

(https://i.discogs.com/5ibF82-RMnYQcp62M4K9RMZMtGj35oIqUAcldmgunvc/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:551/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWltYWdlcy9SLTE1/ODk5Njk2LTE2MDUw/MTYwNDMtNDUxOC5q/cGVn.jpeg)

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on March 01, 2022, 12:38:29 AM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 28, 2022, 09:55:22 PM
I think it's too categorical to reject all non-HIP recordings in that way. Have you heard Lautenbacher / Galling, Barchet / Veyron-Lacroix, Szeryng / Walcha, Schneiderhan / K. Richter and Menuhin / Malcolm?

Are you forgetting Suk/Ruzickova?

https://archive.org/details/lp_js-bach-zuzana-rikova-josef-suk-sonata-f_johann-sebastian-bach-zuzana-rikova-josef
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on March 01, 2022, 06:16:08 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 01, 2022, 12:38:29 AM
Are you forgetting Suk/Ruzickova?

https://archive.org/details/lp_js-bach-zuzana-rikova-josef-suk-sonata-f_johann-sebastian-bach-zuzana-rikova-josef

No, I briefly considered including it, but even if it's heart-breaking beautiful, I was not convinced, that this was the kind of interpretation milk wanted.

However I should have included Lautenbacher / Klinkerfuss, but I took too long time to recall the name of Klinkerfuss.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: premont on March 01, 2022, 06:19:42 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on February 28, 2022, 11:35:59 PM
...and I cannot find a cheapo grey reissue of the Menuhin/Malcolm

Can be had here in a sound-wise very good release (well it's CDR, but you get the music):

https://forgottenrecords.com/en/Menuhin-Malcolm-Gauntlett--Bach--622.html
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on March 01, 2022, 06:38:02 AM
I've been listening to it this morning, it is beautiful as you say. However my reservation about it is that it is solemn. Solemn may not be quite the right word, it's a quality I've heard before in Schweitzer for example - as if the music is designed to accompany a procession of important dignitaries. But it is beautiful,  no doubt about it.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Jo498 on March 01, 2022, 06:43:16 AM
My point was less getting hold of the Menuhin/Malcolm recordings than trying to help my memory which of the Menuhin recordings I listened to in 2010... ;) For whatever reason I remember more clearly that it was some cheap re-issue and that cover might fit it than whether it was harpsichord or piano...
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on March 04, 2022, 01:34:51 PM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTMwNjA0Ni4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MjAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NDIwNzY5NDN9)

Earlier in the week I was listening to Suk/Ruzickova. This new one from Terakado/Bonizzoni is the polar opposite. It's quite tough, frank and eloquent. I think it's effective and interesting.

All ears are on Terakado: I haven't noticed that Bonizzoni has much new to say, though in movements where he has a lot to do, like the adagio of 1016, he does it beautifully.

The 1016 is excellent, they're really sparking off each other, it's a real valuable contribution.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Jo498 on March 05, 2022, 10:37:17 PM
the historical Menuhin/Kentner is on youtube but I would hardly recommend it although I got used to the style after a while...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8-lxStJSWM
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on March 06, 2022, 02:02:21 AM
It's a surprise to me how much I've grown to appreciate these 1014 - 1019 sonatas, at the moment they're the Bach I enjoy the most!
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: milk on March 06, 2022, 07:55:08 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on March 06, 2022, 02:02:21 AM
It's a surprise to me how much I've grown to appreciate these 1014 - 1019 sonatas, at the moment they're the Bach I enjoy the most!
incredible works. You can forget about one strand of Bach easily because there's so much to draw attention. I agree: these pieces are so beautiful.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Jo498 on March 06, 2022, 08:28:58 AM
 I loved them (or most, I am still not as fond of #5+6 as of my favs E major, b minor and c minor) the first encounter over 20 years ago and they have remained my favorite Bach chamber music.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on June 09, 2022, 09:00:51 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on June 08, 2022, 11:22:50 PM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTMyNzM3Mi4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NTEwNjA0MDR9)

Unusual harpsichord sound. This needs to be explored.

I think this is interesting enough to merit a listening, especially in the harpsichord. They're certainly aware of independent lines. I can't find any information online about the instrument or what has inspired their distinctive style in the music. Hossen is tasteful. Barbareschi has a good deal of personality. Whether the two come together in an altogether satisfactory way is not clear to me, but I am very happy that they have given me food for thought.
Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on October 09, 2022, 12:20:21 PM
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 19, 2018, 11:09:42 AM

Then there is Michele Auclair / Marie-Claire Alain which is so-so. I have only found it available here:


I think MCA's contribution is really good! I'm hearing a sense that they're listening to each other, and responding. They're not on autopilot. Sound is a major weakness, at least on this transfer, maybe Forgotten Records is better

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1JlGoCjDVefEwELAw3P5n0

Title: Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
Post by: Mandryka on December 23, 2023, 01:53:50 PM
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/8a/71/jjyw2mhd2718a_600.jpg)

https://www.qobuz.com/at-de/album/bach-3-sonatas-for-viola-da-gamba-harpsichord-jonathan-dunford-pierre-trocellier/jjyw2mhd2718a

Jonathan Dunford and Pierre Trocellier play the gamba sonatas. Special IMO. Small scale, which is good. Trocellier was the harpsichord player in the Charbonnier Marais series. Dunford needs no intro. Streaming only, but streaming everywhere. Amateur engineering, amateur production, but charming in its way.