I hear a lot of howlers from people who should know better, such as classical DJs. Two common examples that spring to mind are "PlacEEdo Domingo" (which makes the guy sound like a sugar pill) and "Herbert von Carry-on" (which sounds like the maestro has introduced his own line of luggage).
Names often do not translate well in the pronunciation of other languages. Sometimes the sounds do not even exist in other languages. Or those sounds, in other languages, are made differently. So some of those 'mistakes' are not really mistakes.
The puns with "Bach in one hour" or so I have seen on covers only work with the anglophone mispronunciation.
Don Gee-oh-varny
Quote from: GanChan on April 12, 2019, 12:16:39 PM
I hear a lot of howlers from people who should know better, such as classical DJs. Two common examples that spring to mind are "PlacEEdo Domingo" (which makes the guy sound like a sugar pill) and "Herbert von Carry-on" (which sounds like the maestro has introduced his own line of luggage).
You must admit that if any conductor would have had his own line of designer luggage, it would have been Karajan.
A Russian-speaking friend would tell me off for not making a throat-hawking sound for the first letter of Khachaturian.
Quote from: Jo498 on April 12, 2019, 12:56:06 PM
The puns with "Bach in one hour" or so I have seen on covers only work with the anglophone mispronunciation.
It seems to me that pun works well enough even with a correct pronunciation of Bach.
I also agree with mc ukrneal. I haven't listened to classical radio for a while, but I was mostly put off by pretentious DJs who would make a big show of pronouncing foreign names "correctly." It seems to me you should render names as accurately as possible using the sounds available in the language you are speaking. For instance if I say "Johannes Brahms" I will use the German 'J' sound (as though it were Yohannes) but not the gutteral 'R' sound (even though I can) because it is not part of the English language. I follow the same convention with my own name, which should have a rolled r were I to pronounce it "correctly."
Quote from: SimonNZ on April 12, 2019, 03:42:28 PM
A Russian-speaking friend would tell me off for not making a throat-hawking sound for the first letter of Khachaturian.
Wikipedia
QuoteAram Il'yich Khachaturian (/ˈærəm ˌkɑːtʃəˈtʊəriən/;[1] Russian: Ара́м Ильи́ч Хачатуря́н, IPA: [ɐˈram ɪˈlʲjit͡ɕ xət͡ɕɪtʊˈrʲan]; Armenian: Արամ Խաչատրյան, Aram Xačatryan;[A] pronounced [ɑˈɾɑm χɑt͡ʃʰɑt(ə)ɾˈjɑn]
The IPA Armenian key provided by Wiki says "similar to Scottish loch"
Quote from: JBS on April 12, 2019, 03:52:06 PM
Wikipedia
The IPA Armenian key provided by Wiki says "similar to Scottish loch"
That's a bit of a throat-hawk thing as well, isn't it? Even though I usually say "lock" (and "bark" for Bach).
There's a thing I do in knowingly mispronouncing composers names etc: I say them with an English accent. Saying them correctly often requires briefly adopting the accent and always sounds affected, and as a classical music fan am already battling the image others have that I, and we, are snobs.
Quote from: SimonNZ on April 12, 2019, 04:19:21 PM
There's a thing I do in knowingly mispronouncing composers names etc: I say them with an English accent. Saying them correctly often requires briefly adopting the accent and always sounds affected, and as a classical music fan am already battling the image others have that I, and we, are snobs.
In olden days I could spot the wankers from the way they said Nicaragua: nee ha RA and then some failed attempt at a throat-clearing sound ending in wa. There is much to be said for accepting that one cannot pronounce some languages as natives would.
Quote from: SimonNZ on April 12, 2019, 04:01:54 PM
That's a bit of a throat-hawk thing as well, isn't it? Even though I usually say "lock" (and "bark" for Bach).
It's less of a problem if you're Jewish, since that sound is the one used to pronounce the letters chet and chof (in ancient Hebrew they sounded slightly different): l'CHaim, CHanukah for chet. For Anglophones, chof is mostly encountered in the names of some prophets (MiC(H)ah, ZeCHariah ). English usage often reduces the CH to an H, as often seen with Hanukah...but also the prophets Nahum and Haggai: the Hebrew names are Nachum and Chagai.
Learning elementary German I was taught the pronoun ich was to said using...you guessed it...the sound "found in Scottish loch".
Quote from: Ken B on April 12, 2019, 04:26:45 PM
In olden days I could spot the wankers from the way they said Nicaragua: nee ha RA and then some failed attempt at a throat-clearing sound ending in wa. There is much to be said for accepting that one cannot pronounce some languages as natives would.
The Nicaraguans I know all say it the Anglo way: Nicaragua :P
Quote from: JBS on April 12, 2019, 04:52:02 PM
It's less of a problem if you're Jewish, since that sound is the one used to pronounce the letters chet and chof (in ancient Hebrew they sounded slightly different): l'CHaim, CHanukah for chet. For Anglophones, chof is mostly encountered in the names of some prophets (MiC(H)ah, ZeCHariah ). English usage often reduces the CH to an H, as often seen with Hanukah...but also the prophets Nahum and Haggai: the Hebrew names are Nachum and Chagai.
Learning elementary German I was taught the pronoun ich was to said using...you guessed it...the sound "found in Scottish loch".
Which is close but not quite correct. There are two versions of the "ch" in German. The one in Bach is basically the same as in Scottish "loch". It is not quite guttural but at the back of the mouth (velar or whatever) and with the tongue somewhat retracted. And I think the Hebrew in L'Chaim etc. is again almost the same as well as the Russian sound represented by an "x" in Kyrillic (and the Greek chi/x is also similar although it apparently became ever softer and is maybe closer to the "ich" sound nowadays).
Whereas the "ich" sound is palatal produced between the tongue and the hard palate closer to the front teeth and much "softer". This softer variant goes with i, e, ä, ü, the harder varianter with the darker vowels and the ch-sound is produced further back in the mouth the darker the vowel
Admittedly, there are regional German dialects that only have the harder (Bach) sound for both and other that soften the softer "ich" sound to a soft "sh" (which would be a "sch", like in Schumann). In such dialects "Kirche" (church) and "Kirsche" (cherry) would sound the same. But the "ach"-Sound would not soften.
Maybe with the exception of the r sounds the "ach/ich" is probably the hardest thing in German pronunciation. Fortunately it is very unlikely to produce any misunderstandings because, as I said, they are not even fully distinguished among all regional dialects. In "high" TV/Stage German it is a clear distinction, though.
Quote from: Jo498 on April 13, 2019, 12:08:18 AM
Which is close but not quite correct. There are two versions of the "ch" in German. The one in Bach is basically the same as in Scottish "loch". It is not quite guttural but at the back of the mouth (velar or whatever) and with the tongue somewhat retracted. And I think the Hebrew in L'Chaim etc. is again almost the same as well as the Russian sound represented by an "x" in Kyrillic (and the Greek chi/x is also similar although it apparently became ever softer and is maybe closer to the "ich" sound nowadays).
Whereas the "ich" sound is palatal produced between the tongue and the hard palate closer to the front teeth and much "softer". This softer variant goes with i, e, ä, ü, the harder varianter with the darker vowels and the ch-sound is produced further back in the mouth the darker the vowel
Admittedly, there are regional German dialects that only have the harder (Bach) sound for both and other that soften the softer "ich" sound to a soft "sh" (which would be a "sch", like in Schumann). In such dialects "Kirche" (church) and "Kirsche" (cherry) would sound the same. But the "ach"-Sound would not soften.
Maybe with the exception of the r sounds the "ach/ich" is probably the hardest thing in German pronunciation. Fortunately it is very unlikely to produce any misunderstandings because, as I said, they are not even fully distinguished among all regional dialects. In "high" TV/Stage German it is a clear distinction, though.
Is the g in Ludwig pronounced the same as the ch in Ich? So I heard but I want it confirmed --- or not --- from the most authoritative sources.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 12, 2019, 12:41:53 PM
Names often do not translate well in the pronunciation of other languages. Sometimes the sounds do not even exist in other languages. Or those sounds, in other languages, are made differently. So some of those 'mistakes' are not really mistakes.
This. How do you guys pronounce
Celibidache?
My wife, when we were first going out, said that she really enjoyed the music of 'Sibonius'.
However:
When I first started to enjoy the music of Vaughan Williams as a teenager I pronounced the work 'Job: A Masque for Dancing' to rhyme with 'Bob'.
My older brother once, in my youth, asked me how I thought 'Eugen' as in Eugen Jochum was pronounced. I got this right, as he thought I would, as I had recently watched the film 'Sink the Bismarck' where the German battleship is accompanied on her first (and last) voyage by the 'Prinz Eugen'.
It still feels wrong to be pronouncing Ralph as "Rayf".
Quote from: SimonNZ on April 13, 2019, 03:13:43 AM
It still feels wrong to be pronouncing Ralph as "Rayf".
Good point!
Quote from: Florestan on April 13, 2019, 02:50:24 AM
Is the g in Ludwig pronounced the same as the ch in Ich? So I heard but I want it confirmed --- or not --- from the most authoritative sources.
This is again somewhat difficult. There are two options. One is basically "Ludvik" with hardened g. The other is with the "ich"-sound. Again, these are slight regional differences (southern Germans would tend to the harder sound, e.g. there in Bavarian you have "Wiggerl" as short form of Ludwig) and I am unsure because it is a proper name. The official "stage German" would have the "ich"-sound. But one has to watch out (and this is again a subtle difficulty) that as soon as the "-ig" is not at the end of a word, the g hardens. E.g. "König" (king) is "Könich". But the plural "Könige" has the normal hard g. (But not the "overhardened "k" sound the g at the end turns to in words like "Tag" (day)).
So, there are some subtleties in German pronunciation I am barely aware of even as a native and they will often be different locally within German speaking countries. (If one turns to dialects the "g" can become as soft as a "y" sound, e.g "gut" is prononounced as "yoot" in the Berlin region) Again, they will usually be markers of an accent but not lead to misunderstandings.
Quote from: Florestan on April 13, 2019, 02:51:27 AM
This. How do you guys pronounce Celibidache?
More or less in the Italian way which seems close enough to the Romanian.
Quote from: Jo498 on April 13, 2019, 04:28:43 AM
More or less in the Italian way which seems close enough to the Romanian.
In this case, the Italian way is
exactly the same as the Romanian --- actually, when it comes to
ce, ci, che, chi, ghe,. ghi, it's always the case that Italian and Romanian coincide. But try pronounce it the German or English way. :D
Quote from: Jo498 on April 13, 2019, 04:26:37 AM
This is again somewhat difficult. There are two options. One is basically "Ludvik" with hardened g. The other is with the "ich"-sound. Again, these are slight regional differences (southern Germans would tend to the harder sound, e.g. there in Bavarian you have "Wiggerl" as short form of Ludwig) and I am unsure because it is a proper name. The official "stage German" would have the "ich"-sound. But one has to watch out (and this is again a subtle difficulty) that as soon as the "-ig" is not at the end of a word, the g hardens. E.g. "König" (king) is "Könich". But the plural "Könige" has the normal hard g. (But not the "overhardened "k" sound the g at the end turns to in words like "Tag" (day)).
So, there are some subtleties in German pronunciation I am barely aware of even as a native and they will often be different locally within German speaking countries. (If one turns to dialects the "g" can become as soft as a "y" sound, e.g "gut" is prononounced as "yoot" in the Berlin region) Again, they will usually be markers of an accent but not lead to misunderstandings.
Thanks for clarifying --- sort of, actually. :laugh:
Btw, in Mozart the t sounds like the English in hat or like d in the English bad?
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 12, 2019, 03:49:16 PM
I also agree with mc ukrneal. I haven't listened to classical radio for a while, but I was mostly put off by pretentious DJs who would make a big show of pronouncing foreign names "correctly." It seems to me you should render names as accurately as possible using the sounds available in the language you are speaking. For instance if I say "Johannes Brahms" I will use the German 'J' sound (as though it were Yohannes) but not the gutteral 'R' sound (even though I can) because it is not part of the English language. I follow the same convention with my own name, which should have a rolled r were I to pronounce it "correctly."
The bolded words could have been taken out of my mouth.
As far as presenters pronouncing names 'correctly', for me it depends. Some seem to make it sound quite natural, which is fine, others seem uncomfortable and/or pretentious, which just seems a touch silly.
Quote from: Biffo on April 12, 2019, 01:41:31 PM
Don Gee-oh-varny
... :-[ .. Though I probably err towards three syllables (if that's what is being presumed as correct here?) rather than four, when I'm in a hurry, but normally it's four. So am not only uneducated, but inconsistent too. :P
I also hang around a bit on the first syllable of Chay-kovsky, which may also be deemed a breech of etiquette by those with higher standards than me. It's ingrained now and feels odd saying it any other way.
Quote from: SimonNZ on April 13, 2019, 03:13:43 AM
It still feels wrong to be pronouncing Ralph as "Rayf".
Very true! And I thought it was just me being a bit weird.
Not a musical one, but I struggle a bit with the name 'Boris Johnson', it normally comes out as 'Egregious twat' ..
Quote from: Iota on April 13, 2019, 07:04:43 AM
Not a musical one, but I struggle a bit with the name 'Boris Johnson', it normally comes out as 'Egregious twat' ..
Fer Chrissake (to stay on topic), can't we just leave the fucking bloody politics aside?
Sorry, it was just meant to be a passing joke, not to derail the thread. :(
Quote from: Iota on April 13, 2019, 07:24:47 AM
Sorry, it was just meant to be a passing joke, not to derail the thread. :(
I know, but still... :(
It fits because "Boris" is pronounced completely differently in Russian.
Mozart. "z" in German is always "ts", never like the "z" in English. Soft consonants (d, b, g) tend to harden at the end (such hardening is a common mistake by German speakers of English) but t is already hard, so nothing happens.
The "r" is again somewhat subtle and regionally different. In the south it could be "trilled r" almost like in Italian, but more common is a different, more velar r. And in some combinations and some regions there is a tendency to almost drop the r and only retain a lengthening of the syllable (somewhat similar to engl. "garden"). So it would often be closer zu "Mo-tsuht" than "Mo-tsuhrt"
Quote from: Jo498 on April 13, 2019, 09:04:07 AM
It fits because "Boris" is pronounced completely differently in Russian.
Mozart. "z" in German is always "ts", never like the "z" in English. Soft consonants (d, b, g) tend to harden at the end (such hardening is a common mistake by German speakers of English) but t is already hard, so nothing happens.
The "r" is again somewhat subtle and regionally different. In the south it could be "trilled r" almost like in Italian, but more common is a different, more velar r. And in some combinations and some regions there is a tendency to almost drop the r and only retain a lengthening of the syllable (somewhat similar to engl. "garden"). So it would often be closer zu "Mo-tsuht" than "Mo-tsuhrt"
Thanks. I infer from this that the final t sounds like t in hat, not like d in bad. MO-tsuht, not MO-tsuhd. Am I right?
Now, here's another Romanian name:
Horia Mihail (an excellent pianist). Can you guess how to correctly pronounce it? :)
Quote from: Florestan on April 13, 2019, 02:51:27 AM
This. How do you guys pronounce Celibidache?
Chellee bi (short) dashee
Quote from: Ken B on April 13, 2019, 09:21:52 AM
Chellee bi (short) dashee
Wrong. :D
It's not
shee, but
che like in Italian
Che farò senza Euridice.
Quote from: Ken B on April 13, 2019, 09:23:46 AM
Is it dachee? Or some guttural thing?
See my edit.
Like Ke in Ken, actually. :D
What do you guys think about writing Chaikovsky instead of Tchaikovsky? I am all in its favor --- and if you are not then you should explain me why you write Richard instead of Ritchard, or Chekhov instead of Tchekhov --- or indeed fish instead of ghoti. ;D
Fwiw, the Romanian transliteration of his name is Ceaicovschi --- but it's written Ceaikovski.
1)the IPA transliteration of the Cyrillic letter which begins the name is /tɕ/,
so there is phonological reason for it.
2) No one would know whom this unjustly neglected composer Chaikovsky was.
Logically it should also be Tchekov, but again no one would know whom you meant.
Quote from: JBS on April 13, 2019, 09:48:19 AM
1)the IPA transliteration of the Cyrillic letter which begins the name is /tɕ/,
so there is phonological reason for it.
2) No one would know whom this unjustly neglected composer Chaikovsky was.
Logically it should also be Tchekov, but again no one would know whom you meant.
Which boils down to what we all know already: English spelling is anything but logical. :D
If Tchaikovsky is logical, then so should be Ritchard or Tcharles. ;D
The "modern" transliteration has "Cajkovskih
Quote from: Florestan on April 13, 2019, 09:11:56 AM
Thanks. I infer from this that the final t sounds like t in hat, not like d in bad. MO-tsuht, not MO-tsuhd. Am I right?
Yes. And it would not be wrong to pronounce the r but more common to only lengthen the vowel.
Quote
Now, here's another Romanian name: Horia Mihail (an excellent pianist). Can you guess how to correctly pronounce it? :)
I guess the h's are not dropped but more like the German ich (or ach)-sound or the Spanish j in Juan or the Russian/Greek x. As the pianist's last name is like the first name of e.g. Gorbachev.
Quote from: Jo498 on April 13, 2019, 10:20:47 AM
The "modern" transliteration has "Cajkovskih
What language is that? :)
Quote
I guess the h's are not dropped but more like the German ich (or ach)-sound or the Spanish j in Juan or the Russian/Greek x. As the pianist's last name is like the first name of e.g. Gorbachev.
Your guess is correct, the Spanish Juan is right: it's like J
oria Mija
il in Spanish --- and the accent falls on the underlined letters.
Quote from: Florestan on April 13, 2019, 09:11:56 AM
Thanks. I infer from this that the final t sounds like t in hat, not like d in bad. MO-tsuht, not MO-tsuhd. Am I right?
Now, here's another Romanian name: Horia Mihail (an excellent pianist). Can you guess how to correctly pronounce it? :)
Throat-warbler Mangrove
Quote from: Iota on April 13, 2019, 07:04:43 AM
The bolded words could have been taken out of my mouth.
As far as presenters pronouncing names 'correctly', for me it depends. Some seem to make it sound quite natural, which is fine, others seem uncomfortable and/or pretentious, which just seems a touch silly.
... :-[ .. Though I probably err towards three syllables (if that's what is being presumed as correct here?) rather than four, when I'm in a hurry, but normally it's four. So am not only uneducated, but inconsistent too. :P
I also hang around a bit on the first syllable of Chay-kovsky, which may also be deemed a breech of etiquette by those with higher standards than me. It's ingrained now and feels odd saying it any other way.
Very true! And I thought it was just me being a bit weird.
Not a musical one, but I struggle a bit with the name 'Boris Johnson', it normally comes out as 'Egregious twat' ..
I have the same mispronunciation problem with BJ.
Quote from: Florestan on April 13, 2019, 10:30:00 AM
What language is that? :)
I messed it up but the modern transliteration uses c with the caron or "hacek" (known from Czech) on top for the kyrillic letter Tchaikovsky's last name begins with. This will not replace the common transliterations but it is more precise.
Quote from: Florestan on April 13, 2019, 09:51:55 AM
Which boils down to what we all know already: English spelling is anything but logical. :D
With this wholeheartedly agree do I!!!! :)
I do disagree with the spelling of Rachmaninov when it is spelled Rachmaninoff. The 'off is pronounced too strongly/too hard a sound (in English) when it is read this way, which distorts the pronunication of his name. Besides, the opposite of Rachmaninoff is Rachmaninon? That just isn't right! :)
Quote from: Florestan on April 13, 2019, 09:36:31 AM
What do you guys think about writing Chaikovsky instead of Tchaikovsky? I am all in its favor
He's under C in the music library at uni, and in my music library as well. Probably if I were writing a scholarly paper about him, I'd spell his name Chaikovsky, & this seems to be consensus in the English-speaking world of Russian music studies (along with, e.g., Musorgsky, Rakhmaninov, etc). We are not quite at the level of German purists who insist on Čajkovskij, Šostakovič, etc, at least not yet.
But he apparently on a personal level preferred the transliteration "Peter Tchaikovsky" and always wrote his name that way in latin script. Same with Sergei Rachmaninov, who apparently preferred "Serge Rachmaninoff". Part of it is obviously French being the language of the European aristocracy at the time, & therefore much more highbrow than e.g. English, the language of damp uncultured beer-drinking boors from the island without art, etc, so names are transcribed as they would appear in French. Similar transcriptions gave us Moussorgsky & Chostakovitch, and would also give us François Schubert, Jean-Sébastien Bach, Louis van Beethoven, etc, which still do crop up occasionally. (And did give us Wolfgang Amadé Mozart, whose middle name in the original German would have been Theophilus.)
Quote from: amw on April 14, 2019, 02:21:43 AM
He's under C in the music library at uni, and in my music library as well. Probably if I were writing a scholarly paper about him, I'd spell his name Chaikovsky, & this seems to be consensus in the English-speaking world of Russian music studies (along with, e.g., Musorgsky, Rakhmaninov, etc). We are not quite at the level of German purists who insist on Čajkovskij, Šostakovič, etc, at least not yet.
But he apparently on a personal level preferred the transliteration "Peter Tchaikovsky" and always wrote his name that way in latin script. Same with Sergei Rachmaninov, who apparently preferred "Serge Rachmaninoff". Part of it is obviously French being the language of the European aristocracy at the time, & therefore much more highbrow than e.g. English, the language of damp uncultured beer-drinking boors from the island without art, etc, so names are transcribed as they would appear in French. Similar transcriptions gave us Moussorgsky & Chostakovitch, and would also give us François Schubert, Jean-Sébastien Bach, Louis van Beethoven, etc, which still do crop up occasionally. (And did give us Wolfgang Amadé Mozart, whose middle name in the original German would have been Theophilus.)
Mozart's middle name in German is Gottlieb, Theophilus is the Latin form, used on his entry in the church baptismal register. His own preference (post 1777) was Amadé, he only used the pompous Amadeus when he was mocking himself.
Thanks for the correction. (Greek not Latin though...)
Quote from: Ken B on April 13, 2019, 11:53:00 AM
Throat-warbler Mangrove
*tchortle*As a Czech, I'm enjoying foreign attempts at "ř" (e.g. Dvořák). Can't blame people giving up entirely and going with a simple "r" – we've invented the ř to torture y'all.
Quote from: amw on April 14, 2019, 03:54:22 AM
Thanks for the correction. (Greek not Latin though...)
Sorry, Greek - his baptismal entry is a bit of a dog's breakfast - Joannes Chrysost[omus] Wolfgangus Theophilus fil[ius] leg[itimus Nob[ilis] D[ominus] Leopoldus Mozart Aulæ Musicus, et Maria Anna Pertlin giuges
Quote from: amw on April 14, 2019, 02:21:43 AM
We are not quite at the level of German purists who insist on Čajkovskij, Šostakovič, etc, at least not yet.
That's the transliteration I wanted to write above, but did not manage, so I deleted it but Florestan was quicker with the quotation
Quote
But he apparently on a personal level preferred the transliteration "Peter Tchaikovsky" and always wrote his name that way in latin script. Same with Sergei Rachmaninov, who apparently preferred "Serge Rachmaninoff". Part of it is obviously French being the language of the European aristocracy at the time, & therefore much more highbrow than e.g. English,
The upper middle class and upper class Russian children in the 19th century had in turn French, German, and English speaking governesses, so they would be fluent in the main Western European languages. French was the most important lingua franca, but the German speaking countries were geographically and culturally closer to Russia, there were many people with German ancestry in Russia, and there were also close ties between the nobility, the Kaiser addressed the Tsar "Dear Niki", even right before the War....
After the revolution there were so many Russians in Berlin that Charlottenburg was called "Charlottengrad" in the 1920s.
Quote from: amw on April 14, 2019, 02:21:43 AM
François Schubert, Jean-Sébastien Bach, Louis van Beethoven, etc,
Italian being "the language of music," I sometimes see it as well - e.g. an 18th century English publication of quartets by "the illustrious Giuseppe Haydn."
Quote from: amw on April 14, 2019, 02:21:43 AM
Similar transcriptions gave us Moussorgsky & Chostakovitch, and would also give us François Schubert, Jean-Sébastien Bach, Louis van Beethoven, etc, which still do crop up occasionally.
I once saw "Luigi di Beethoven".
Our radio station played a series of the complete Verdi operas for the 100th anniversary of his death. The announcer always pronounced "recitative" as "recititave". She also pronounced "Giuseppina" as "Josephina", and Violetta's aria became "Ah fors'è Liù". Apparently she was a lesbian in love with that slave girl from
Turandot. Speaking of
Turandot, the pronunciation of that name have sparked many a heated discussion on the internets.
Quote from: Wendell_E on April 15, 2019, 03:04:15 AM
I once saw "Luigi di Beethoven".
Our radio station played a series of the complete Verdi operas for the 100th anniversary of his death. The announcer always pronounced "recitative" as "recititave". She also pronounced "Giuseppina" as "Josephina", and Violetta's aria became "Ah fors'è Liù". Apparently she was a lesbian in love with that slave girl from Turandot. Speaking of Turandot, the pronunciation of that name have sparked many a heated discussion on the internets.
Luigi and Louis are the Italian and French equivalents of Ludwig. The first editions of Symphonies 1 & 2, published in Vienna, have a frontispiece in French and the composer as Louis van Beethoven. The mutilated front page of the manuscript of the
Eroica Symphony is signed 'Luigi van Beethoven' . Never seen di for
van though.
Quote from: Biffo on April 15, 2019, 03:55:26 AM
Luigi and Louis are the Italian and French equivalents of Ludwig. The first editions of Symphonies 1 & 2, published in Vienna, have a frontispiece in French and the composer as Louis van Beethoven. The mutilated front page of the manuscript of the Eroica Symphony is signed 'Luigi van Beethoven' .
Haydn frequently signed his compositions "di me Giuseppe Haydn".
Quote from: Wendell_E on April 15, 2019, 03:04:15 AMShe also pronounced "Giuseppina" as "Josephina", and Violetta's aria became "Ah fors'è Liù". Apparently she was a lesbian in love with that slave girl from Turandot.
As far as opera crossovers go that would be a good idea—all the prima donnas who normally have to die for their tenors instead ditching them and running off together. Perhaps also Figaro and Susanna could show up to play a humiliating trick on Princess Turandot and force her to apologise and/or establish a democracy instead. Off topic though....
Quote from: Wendell_E on April 15, 2019, 03:04:15 AM
I once saw "Luigi di Beethoven".
Our radio station played a series of the complete Verdi operas for the 100th anniversary of his death. The announcer always pronounced "recitative" as "recititave". She also pronounced "Giuseppina" as "Josephina", and Violetta's aria became "Ah fors'è Liù". Apparently she was a lesbian in love with that slave girl from Turandot. Speaking of Turandot, the pronunciation of that name have sparked many a heated discussion on the internets.
When I was young, a radio station broadcast pop fare, switching to classical at the stroke of midnight. The announcer used the name "Mendelssohn and Bartholdy" to introduce the Italian symphony ::). He would also stumble on Moussorgsky, calling him "Moussogorsky".
Nearly everyone except early music aficionados gets Dufay wrong.
Or Kodaly.
Quote from: Ken B on April 15, 2019, 07:48:14 AM
Nearly everyone except early music aficionados gets Dufay wrong.
Or Kodaly.
I know the Guillaume part, but how should Dufay be pronounced?
Quote from: SimonNZ on April 17, 2019, 04:18:29 PM
I know the Guillaume part, but how should Dufay be pronounced?
Three syllables.