It would be interesting to gather people's impressions on the guy's music. His most well-known works (all of it of enormous duration) are three numbered symphonies, a piano concerto, piano quintet, and two numbered violin sonatas. Surprisingly the symphonies are well-represented on disc.
His music draws a lot of flack for supposedly being pure "conductor's music" - i.e. technical exercises with no merit. I don't feel that this is quite the case, and find some claims to the thematic worthlessness of the music to be over-done. It's obviously not Tchaikovsky, but nor is it totally drab and lackluster, it's often quite dramatic and impressive from moment to moment. However one crippling problem I find with his music is that it is almost completely without a long-line, in the Brucknerian sense, pulling you through the enormous canvases. Quite simply, Furt's canvases are so broad they exceed reasonable comprehension, and even a great composer would have the sense not to attempt to write these 20-30 minute movements on a regular basis. Bruckner certainly saved his for special occasions.
However I do find a fair amount of value in his symphonies (although I would absolutely never listen to it distraction-free - I need those distractions with his music), and will look into the sonatas when I get the chance.
I can't agree that it is a technical exercise without merit. There is no question that F poured his soul into his music. The bigger problem is that it isn't particularly original and is a little late for its time. It feels like a bit of a jumble of Bruckner and Sibelius and other stuff that one has heard before, but the music isn't without merit. Furtwängler himself has said that conducting his own music made him feel like a young girl having to undress in front of a room full of perverts, so that may explain the somewhat restrained interpretations by the composer himself. If you want to hear a rare performance of F's music with a top-notch orchestra, in modern sound, that really pulls out all the stops, and with a conductor who is very sympathetic to the composer, this is one you must hear:
[asin]B000067DO3[/asin]
This one I think you can listen to distraction-free. It is a very involved performance that I was lucky to witness live.
Thanks for the background on his attitude to his own music - he does seem to take bigger risks than, for example, Klemperer, who wrote some very anonymous sounding music, but on a modest scale with presumably much less emotional investment (I am so curious as to what Kubelík's compositions sound like, but they seem un-findable).
You seem to have read my mind about what I had been listening to (mainly the composer's own DG recording of his 2nd) - that Barenboim recording does sound like a perfect upgrade. On the subject of recordings, it really surprises me how many options there are:
No.1: Albrecht, A Walter,
No.2: Albrecht, Asahina, Barenboim, Furtwängler x2 (DG, Orfeo), A Walter
No.3: Albrecht, A Walter, Sawallisch (sans finale)
It would be nice to have a stronger rendition of the third, but from what I read of Barenboim's recording of the 2nd, a recording with that level of commitment seems to be a one-off.
Quote from: Lethe on January 18, 2011, 06:49:40 PM
(I am so curious as to what Kubelík's compositions sound like, but they seem un-findable).
Wrong thread, I know, but since you ask... this set:
[asin]B000BV5RDS[/asin]
...apart from containing a very fine partial Beethoven cycle, some Hartmann symphonies and an excellent Schoenberg Gurrelieder, also contains a recording of Kubelik's own "Quattro Forme per Archi". I can't say that I remember the work very well. Haven't listened to that in a long while.
Also, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra used to issue every year a 2CD set in connection with a spring fundraiser that collected live performances broadcast on radio. A few years ago, they had a volume entitled: From the Archives, Volume 16: A Tribute to Rafael Kubelík II. That set had a live performance of Kubelik's "Sequences for Orchestra" (also included Wagner Tristan Prelude and Liebestod, Dvorak 8, Mozart Masonic funeral music, Ravel Tombeau de Couperin, Walton Belshazzar's Feast, Britten Sinfonia da Requiem). Again, I don't remember the work very well. The highlights on those discs are the superb Wagner, Dvorak and Ravel. It's not shown on the CSO store's website (but then again, most of their stock isn't). They may still have a few copies of it, but you'd have to call them (312-294-3345). These discs were never distributed through any other channel.
Those are the only recodings of Kubelik compositions that I'm aware of.
Thank you very much! Above and beyond the call of duty.
You're most welcome.
BTW, a long while ago there existed a recording on LP of Furtwängler's Symphonic Piano Concerto with Barenboim at the keyboard and Mehta conducting, I think, the LA Phil. Never managed to get my paws on it, though.
I've been scouring the net and found a low quality LP rip of the Barenboim piano concerto:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=FKRQTPA0
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=N0BJ68A9
More promisingly I found one with Janowski, presumably a more recent broadcast, but I can't find much info about it online (Edit: the provenance seems to be from this concert (http://instantencore.com/concert/details.aspx?PId=5022927)):
http://rapidshare.com/files/228745285/CORRECTED_Janowski_-_Furtwaengler_PC.zip.001
http://rapidshare.com/files/228760834/CORRECTED_Janowski_-_Furtwaengler_PC.zip.002
http://rapidshare.com/files/228753518/CORRECTED_Janowski_-_Furtwaengler_PC.zip.003
http://rapidshare.com/files/228753408/CORRECTED_Janowski_-_Furtwaengler_PC.zip.004
I'll give it a try once I've DLed, to see if it's legitimate. If anybody can upgrade the Barenboim rip, or offer anything else, it would be much appreciated.
In related news, I've just gone through the violin sonatas. Much more approachable music, and given how chamber musicians get to internalise new material that they play far more than orchestral musicians, I had fewer issues with the "long line" in these works. They meandered, but the Franckian expansiveness never felt too long. Surprisingly, Furtwängler's writing for both vioin and piano is quite advanced - at no point did it feel that the music was written by a "hobby" composer.
Funny you should post that. I just ran into the same thread on the web. ;)
I'm at work so haven't tried downloading. I noticed the discussion is a few years old so I wasn't sure if the files still exist. Did you try downloading?
Which recording of the violin sonatas are you listening to? I am not familiar with those works.
This one:
[asin]B000NOIWPS[/asin]
It's a high quality production, and affords both instruments a nice dynamic range (I can't imagine this music played with anything less).
Those RS links seem to be legitimate - the Furtwängler is tracks 3-5, and the recorded sound is mercifully fine. I haven't heard the Marco Polo disc but I can only imagine this is an improvement on a technical level, given the variable reviews that disc has received.
Thanks. I'll have to check that out.
I also found this recording on amazon, though it seems to be indefinitely out of stock :(
[asin]B000009MA5[/asin]
The one reviewer's comments are priceless:
QuoteFurtwangler's music is disturbed with dark and uncontrolled passion. It might not be a great pleasure but could be a examination of the humanity.
;D
Quote from: Lethe on January 18, 2011, 02:42:32 PM
It would be interesting to gather people's impressions on the guy's music. His most well-known works (all of it of enormous duration) are three numbered symphonies, a piano concerto, piano quintet, and two numbered violin sonatas. Surprisingly the symphonies are well-represented on disc.
His music draws a lot of flack for supposedly being pure "conductor's music" - i.e. technical exercises with no merit. I don't feel that this is quite the case, and find some claims to the thematic worthlessness of the music to be over-done. It's obviously not Tchaikovsky, but nor is it totally drab and lackluster, it's often quite dramatic and impressive from moment to moment. However one crippling problem I find with his music is that it is almost completely without a long-line, in the Brucknerian sense, pulling you through the enormous canvases. Quite simply, Furt's canvases are so broad they exceed reasonable comprehension, and even a great composer would have the sense not to attempt to write these 20-30 minute movements on a regular basis. Bruckner certainly saved his for special occasions.
However I do find a fair amount of value in his symphonies (although I would absolutely never listen to it distraction-free - I need those distractions with his music), and will look into the sonatas when I get the chance.
I just ran across the PQ. Yes, at @70mins, I thiiink we have a winner here! Not even Feldman, really!!
I only heard the samples, but it we MUST get this into the PQ Thread!
There is a Jochum recording of the Furtwängler Second available from amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/Furtw%C3%A4ngler-Sinfonie-Nr-2-Eugen-Jochum/dp/B00442M0N0/ref=sr_1_14?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1295525462&sr=1-14)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kBXhbtPrL._SS400_.jpg)
and the Piano Quintet at amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/Furtwaengler-Piano-Quintet/dp/B0001ZA3RY/ref=sr_1_111?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1295526022&sr=1-111), a few used copies are reasonably priced:
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2010/51kymhNm1RL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
and the Piano Concerto at amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/Klavierkonzert-H-Moll-David-Lively/dp/B000024ON6/ref=sr_1_56?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1295525611&sr=1-56)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2010/516NXRfaioL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 20, 2011, 03:35:34 AM
There is a Jochum recording of the Furtwängler Second available from amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/Furtw%C3%A4ngler-Sinfonie-Nr-2-Eugen-Jochum/dp/B00442M0N0/ref=sr_1_14?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1295525462&sr=1-14)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kBXhbtPrL._SS400_.jpg)
Yes, I saw that. Interesting, though the first reviews are not particularly encouraging. I doubt it will match Barenboim's effort.
I guess we should try to gather the remaining few scraps, to do a full discographic overview. I will neglect using embedded Amazon links because all the cover images are tiny, and some don't work.
Large forces: student symphonies (http://www.amazon.com/FURTWANGLER-Symphony-Major-Minor/dp/B000004627/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295542693&sr=1-4), Te Deum, etc (http://www.amazon.com/Te-Deum-Religioser-Hymnus-Furtwangler/dp/B00000460O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295542685&sr=1-1), Te Deum (Furtwängler performance) (http://www.amazon.com/Glazunov-Furtwangler-dAlbert-Tiefland-Overture/dp/B000003WG8), piano concerto (Fischer) (http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1140151/a/L%27H%E9ritage+de+Wilhelm+Furtw%E4ngler+-+Concerto+Symphonique.htm), piano concerto (Fischer) adagio only (http://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Concerto-Wilhelm-Furtw%C3%A4ngler-Symphonic/dp/B00002MXTR)
Quintet: Bayer (http://www.amazon.com/Quintet-Piano-String-Quartet-Furtwangler/dp/B00000446H/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295541290&sr=1-1), Timpani (http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Quintet-C-Furtwangler/dp/B000001YN9/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295541290&sr=1-2), Faculty? (cat no. WFFC 0601) (http://www.furt-centre.com/centre_issue/centre_issue.htm)
Violin sonatas: Timpani No.1 (http://www.amazon.com/Violin-Sonata-No-Kang-Kerdoncuff/dp/B00002DEOF/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1295541449&sr=1-4), Guild No.1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Furtwangler-Hindemith-Reger-Schaeuble-Sonatas/dp/B0027XLL3I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295551699&sr=1-1-spell), Timpani No.2 (http://www.amazon.com/Furtwangler-Sonata-Violin-Piano-interview/dp/B000XYWSLM/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1295541449&sr=1-3), Timpani No.2a (http://www.amazon.com/Sonata-Violin-Piano-Furtwangler/dp/B000001YND/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295541449&sr=1-6), Bayer No.2 (http://www.amazon.com/Sonata-Violin-Piano-2-Furtwangler/dp/B00000446G/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295541449&sr=1-5), No.2 (Faculty? cat no. WFFC-0405) (http://www.furt-centre.com/centre_issue/centre_issue.htm)
Chamber/solo: Timpani 3CDs (VSx2, PQ) (http://www.amazon.fr/Musique-Chambre-Compilation/dp/B000FFJQU0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295541839&sr=1-1), Fone (VS1, Piano Sonata No.8, Trio) (http://www.amazon.fr/Musique-Chambre-Wilhelm-Furtw%C3%A4ngler/dp/B00005N6HI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1295541839&sr=1-2), "Piano Works by Great Conductors" (http://japansclassic.com/artists/proarte_02/mitsutaka_shiraishi.html), Lieder (http://www.amazon.de/Wilhelm-Furtw%C3%A4ngler-die-Lieder-Ute-Neumerkel/dp/B001AO4PWY/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1271192043&sr=1-4)
There was apparently a cassette tape of his piano music recorded by Robert Rivard on Symposium which was supposed to get a CD reissue in 2001, but I can't find evidence that this happened. There is also a Maazel Symphony No.3 released on a private label "Three Zero Classics" aka " 0 0 0 Classics" under the catalogue number TH-038. There is also a Stuttgart recording (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wilhelm-Furtw%C3%A4ngler-Symphony-No-2-Minor/dp/B002JE1VZI) on Archipel (also Mediaphon) of Furtwängler conducting his 2nd (which makes three verified ones in total). There is potentially a fourth here (http://www.furtwaengler-gesellschaft.de/en/cds) (search for the keyphrase "Konzerte in Hamburg 1947"), which was released on a Furtwangler Society label so is probably legit.
Edit: Okay I think I found most of them.
Quote from: Mensch on January 20, 2011, 07:25:43 AM
Yes, I saw that. Interesting, though the first reviews are not particularly encouraging. I doubt it will match Barenboim's effort.
Yes, I agree. I orderd the Quintet and Piano Concerto I linked to but decided to go for the Barenboim rather than Jochum.
Sarge
Almost related:
Side Notes: Audite's Furtwängler Deal
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/side-notes-audites-furtwangler-deal.html
(http://www.audite.de/gfx/cover/21403_600.jpg)
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/side-notes-audites-furtwangler-deal.html)
Quote from: Lethe on January 20, 2011, 08:12:06 AM
I guess we should try to gather the remaining few scraps, to do a full discographic overview. I will neglect using embedded Amazon links because all the cover images are tiny, and some don't work.
Quintet: Bayer (http://www.amazon.com/Quintet-Piano-String-Quartet-Furtwangler/dp/B00000446H/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295541290&sr=1-1), Timpani (http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Quintet-C-Furtwangler/dp/B000001YN9/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295541290&sr=1-2), Faculty? (cat no. WFFC 0601) (http://www.furt-centre.com/centre_issue/centre_issue.htm)
I think the Timpani may be the one to get in the PQ.
Quote from: jlaurson on January 21, 2011, 08:52:53 AM
Almost related:
Side Notes: Audite's Furtwängler Deal
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/side-notes-audites-furtwangler-deal.html
(http://www.audite.de/gfx/cover/21403_600.jpg)
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/side-notes-audites-furtwangler-deal.html)
I'm very tempted to get this set. BTW, on arkivmusic's listing of this same set (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=220926) you can find Fanfare's resident Furtwänglerian (and ex-president of the National Symphony Orchestra and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra) Henry Fogel's detailed comments on each disc.
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on January 20, 2011, 08:12:06 AM
I guess we should try to gather the remaining few scraps, to do a full discographic overview. I will neglect using embedded Amazon links because all the cover images are tiny, and some don't work.
Large forces: student symphonies (http://www.amazon.com/FURTWANGLER-Symphony-Major-Minor/dp/B000004627/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295542693&sr=1-4), Te Deum, etc (http://www.amazon.com/Te-Deum-Religioser-Hymnus-Furtwangler/dp/B00000460O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295542685&sr=1-1), Te Deum (Furtwängler performance) (http://www.amazon.com/Glazunov-Furtwangler-dAlbert-Tiefland-Overture/dp/B000003WG8), piano concerto (Fischer) (http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1140151/a/L%27H%E9ritage+de+Wilhelm+Furtw%E4ngler+-+Concerto+Symphonique.htm), piano concerto (Fischer) adagio only (http://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Concerto-Wilhelm-Furtw%C3%A4ngler-Symphonic/dp/B00002MXTR)
Quintet: Bayer (http://www.amazon.com/Quintet-Piano-String-Quartet-Furtwangler/dp/B00000446H/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295541290&sr=1-1), Timpani (http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Quintet-C-Furtwangler/dp/B000001YN9/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295541290&sr=1-2), Faculty? (cat no. WFFC 0601) (http://www.furt-centre.com/centre_issue/centre_issue.htm)
Violin sonatas: Timpani No.1 (http://www.amazon.com/Violin-Sonata-No-Kang-Kerdoncuff/dp/B00002DEOF/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1295541449&sr=1-4), Guild No.1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Furtwangler-Hindemith-Reger-Schaeuble-Sonatas/dp/B0027XLL3I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295551699&sr=1-1-spell), Timpani No.2 (http://www.amazon.com/Furtwangler-Sonata-Violin-Piano-interview/dp/B000XYWSLM/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1295541449&sr=1-3), Timpani No.2a (http://www.amazon.com/Sonata-Violin-Piano-Furtwangler/dp/B000001YND/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295541449&sr=1-6), Bayer No.2 (http://www.amazon.com/Sonata-Violin-Piano-2-Furtwangler/dp/B00000446G/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1295541449&sr=1-5), No.2 (Faculty? cat no. WFFC-0405) (http://www.furt-centre.com/centre_issue/centre_issue.htm)
Chamber/solo: Timpani 3CDs (VSx2, PQ) (http://www.amazon.fr/Musique-Chambre-Compilation/dp/B000FFJQU0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295541839&sr=1-1), Fone (VS1, Piano Sonata No.8, Trio) (http://www.amazon.fr/Musique-Chambre-Wilhelm-Furtw%C3%A4ngler/dp/B00005N6HI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1295541839&sr=1-2), "Piano Works by Great Conductors" (http://japansclassic.com/artists/proarte_02/mitsutaka_shiraishi.html), Lieder (http://www.amazon.de/Wilhelm-Furtw%C3%A4ngler-die-Lieder-Ute-Neumerkel/dp/B001AO4PWY/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1271192043&sr=1-4)
There was apparently a cassette tape of his piano music recorded by Robert Rivard on Symposium which was supposed to get a CD reissue in 2001, but I can't find evidence that this happened. There is also a Maazel Symphony No.3 released on a private label "Three Zero Classics" aka " 0 0 0 Classics" under the catalogue number TH-038. There is also a Stuttgart recording (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wilhelm-Furtw%C3%A4ngler-Symphony-No-2-Minor/dp/B002JE1VZI) on Archipel (also Mediaphon) of Furtwängler conducting his 2nd (which makes three verified ones in total). There is potentially a fourth here (http://www.furtwaengler-gesellschaft.de/en/cds) (search for the keyphrase "Konzerte in Hamburg 1947"), which was released on a Furtwangler Society label so is probably legit.
Edit: Okay I think I found most of them.
I have to say I love this
Piano Quintet. It just goes on and on, in a style that I can listen to go on and on. I'm in the slow mvmt., and there is a melancholy repose, married to a rushing passion, that I find complelling, though i am usually not drawn to this type of Germanic hothouse atmosphere (usually French?). The corners are rounded, so the climaxes don't grate like hysterical banshees.
More Furtwangler! (oh,.. the temptation to be a smart ass is great! ;))
Awesome! I find myself listening to the violin sonatas more often due to the slightly more managable duration, but I agree - I like the sense that a movement of the piano quintet is coming towards where another composer would end it, but Furtwängler continues without it feeling "tacked on". There is a bit of meandering but fundimentally the structures are sound.
New(ish) recording of the 2nd violin sonata:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A1NBJhufL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Furtwangler-Beethoven-Violin-Moser/dp/B004MCH0KU/ref=sr_1_25?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1311571105&sr=1-25)
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on July 24, 2011, 09:20:23 PM
New(ish) recording of the 2nd violin sonata:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A1NBJhufL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Furtwangler-Beethoven-Violin-Moser/dp/B004MCH0KU/ref=sr_1_25?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1311571105&sr=1-25)
Did you mean to post this in the "violin babes" thread? ;)
It might JUST sell Furtwangler!
The mighty, monumental works of Furtwangler I have yet not heard. Who can enlighten us?
not one response?? Is it me?
One that you must have heard already....?
[asin] B00000GCA7[/asin]
Quote from: Moonfish on February 06, 2015, 03:27:47 PM
One that you must have heard already....?
I think snyprrr is asking about Furtwängler's own compositions, like the E minor Symphony (No.2) and the Piano Quintet...both monsters.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2015, 07:42:47 AM
I think snyprrr is asking about Furtwängler's own compositions, like the E minor Symphony (No.2) and the Piano Quintet...both monsters.
Sarge
Ahh, of course...! :o What was I thinking? Thanks Sarge!
Here's Lethe's thread on the subject:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17845.msg482648.html#msg482648
snyprrr, it appears you did hear some of his music already...at least the Piano Quintet.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2015, 08:06:45 AM
Here's Lethe's thread on the subject:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17845.msg482648.html#msg482648
snyprrr, it appears you did hear some of his music already...at least the Piano Quintet.
Sarge
Yes, and it was one of my favs... huuuge... must find that PQ collection...
I am a big fan of his music, including all three symphonies, the PQ and the violin sonata, less so the Piano Concertante. I have ordered a CD of his songs that I have not received yet.
Can we merge this at the bottom of this: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17845.20.html
?
There is a massive Symphony - No.2 I think which is great but gets some getting into.
Orchestral pieces
====================================
Overture, op.3, 1899
Symphony, D, 1903
Largo, b, 1st movt of sym., 1908, rev. as 1st movt of Sym. no.1
Sinfonisches Konzert - Piano Concerto in b, Piano, orch, 1924–36 (1954)
Symphony Nr.1, b, mainly 1938–41
Symphony, Nr.2, e, 1944–5 (1952)
Symphony, Nr.3, c, 1947–54
Chamber works
====================================
Kleine Sonate, Cello, Piano, 1986
Piano Trio, F, 1896
String Quartet no.1 (Quartetto quasi una fantasia), 1896
Trio, 2 Violin, vc, 1896–7
Variations, string quartet, 1897
Sonata, a, Violin, Piano, 1898–9
Piano Quartet, 1899
Piano Trio, E, 1900
Phantasie, Piano trio, 1900
String Quartet, f, ?1901
Piano Quintet, 1915–34
Sonata no.1, d, Violin, Piano, 1935 (1938)
Sonata no.2, D, Violin, Piano, 1938 (1940)
Piano music
====================================
Verschiedene Compositionen, 1894–5
8 sonatas, 1896–8
2 Fantasien, c1898
2 Fugues, 1898
Fantasia, 4 hands, ? 1898
2 Fantasien, op.5, 1900
2 Pieces, 1902
3 Pieces, 1903
Choral:
Die erste Walpurgisnacht (Goethe: Faust I), S, A, B, 2 choruses, insts, 1897–8
Ich wandelte unter den Bäumen, 4 female vv, S, A, Piano, 1898
Geisterchor (Goethe: Faust I), chorus, orch, 1902
Religiöser Hymnus (Goethe: Faust II), S, T, chorus, orch, 1903
Te Deum, solo vv, chorus, orch, 1902–10, rev. 1915
I quite like the Violin Sonata (Nr.1) and the first symphony.
His leviathan works could do with some serious Brahmsian "let's trim this, and this, and maybe this, but that needs to be tossed into the fireplace" editing.
I don't hear the Sibelian influence in Furtwängler that MishaK does; to me his work breathes Brahms, Bruckner, Tchaik and Richard Strauss. Whenever I hear him, and I need to do so more, he actually seems to be playing with or experimenting with their tonal palettes. He was a conductor first and foremost - and knew it - and his composing was done primarily in periods when for one reason or another he could not work. Composing may have been more a surrogate, perhaps a means to be close to what he loved rather more than an individual personal statement or achievement. Most of this is speculation on my part; still on my bucket list is a biography or two about him. I'm repeatedly struck by how searching and ruminative his work consistently is, I imagine him wandering about in a forest of sound created by other composers, and enjoying every moment of it.
Quote from: Ghost Sonata on September 05, 2016, 08:05:30 AM
He was a conductor first and foremost - and knew it -
The literature states he was a composer first (in his mind) . . . ?
Somewhat obscure combo, but at least they got recorded/available:
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Quote from: Scion7 on September 05, 2016, 09:12:01 AM
The literature states he was a composer first (in his mind) . . . ?
My understanding was that that was only at the very beginning of his career? But - as I say - I've yet to read his biographies...
Quote from: Scion7 on September 05, 2016, 09:12:01 AM
The literature states he was a composer first (in his mind) . . . ?
I think he was a better composer than he was a conductor, but not nearly as good a composer as his contemporary Felix Weingartner for example.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 06, 2016, 07:09:17 AM
I think he was a better composer than he was a conductor, but not nearly as good a composer as his contemporary Felix Weingartner for example.
What do you not like him about his conducting,
PW? His creativity with scores?
Quote from: Ghost Sonata on September 06, 2016, 04:10:00 PM
What do you not like him about his conducting, PW? His creativity with scores?
A few things:
1) Tempos way too wayward for my taste, slow parts are very slow and fast parts very fast, but then fast parts could become slow all of a sudden, just too much freedom for my taste
2) Orchestral balances are not detailed. You just hear a mass of sound without much wind, string or any other instrumental differentiation. Probably not helped by bad sound in most of his recordings or the rather large un-HIP ensembles he used to record Beethoven or Schubert but I put the blame on him
3) Orchestral execution tend to be sub-par. Nowhere do you hear the ensemble clarity and finess you find in a Szell performance or a unity, purpose, and correctness you find in a Klemperer performance
4) Performances that leave me cold, just no humanity or humor whatsoever to the music, just walls and walls of sound and chords...as opposed to a Bruno Walter for example.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 06, 2016, 04:38:32 PM
A few things:
1) Tempos way too wayward for my taste, slow parts are very slow and fast parts very fast, but then fast parts could become slow all of a sudden, just too much freedom for my taste
2) Orchestral balances are not detailed. You just hear a mass of sound without much wind, string or any other instrumental differentiation. Probably not helped by bad sound in most of his recordings or the rather large un-HIP ensembles he used to record Beethoven or Schubert but I put the blame on him
3) Orchestral execution tend to be sub-par. Nowhere do you hear the ensemble clarity and finess you find in a Szell performance or a unity, purpose, and correctness you find in a Klemperer performance
4) Performances that leave me cold, just no humanity or humor whatsoever to the music, just walls and walls of sound and chords...as opposed to a Bruno Walter for example.
Thank you,
PW! So it's Furtwängler
descending, eh? ;) I have several hours this aft to listen for your excellent points in my EMI set. Even if you don't buy his approach, you have to admire (I think) the notion that every Furtwängler performance is unique and spontaneous, a creative act rather than a duplicative one (the inspiration/desperation of a wanna-be composer?...one might wonder). Also, FYI, I had some Weingartner hearabouts and now dunno where he's hiding...
Quote from: Ghost Sonata on September 07, 2016, 03:59:11 AM
Thank you, PW! So it's Furtwängler descending, eh? ;) I have several hours this aft to listen for your excellent points in my EMI set. Even if you don't buy his approach, you have to admire (I think) the notion that every Furtwängler performance is unique and spontaneous, a creative act rather than a duplicative one (the inspiration/desperation of a wanna-be composer?...one might wonder).
I think Furt's rather eccentric and neurotic approach works for the famous EMI
Tristan as most of the music has a rather hallucinatory and wild nature anyway and his extremes don't really get in the way of the music. Same goes for his Bruckner which more or less works well. But taken as a whole he is not my kind of conductor. I have a CD of him conducting Haydn's Sym #88 and Schubert's 9th and they are effortful and ponderous interpretations. And I had A LOT of his CDs over the years (including the big 107cd box that I got about 20 through)...
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 07, 2016, 08:02:35 AM
...But taken as a whole he is not my kind of conductor...
I might have thought that myself, actually...everything you've written about him is accurate in my book. Often found myself wondering if he really had as much control of his orchestras as legend has it. And I thought I was one of those listeners that more or less prefers sticking to the score and respecting the composer's wishes (when I rail against Rattle, that's one of my main points, guess what? - he's a big fan of Furtwängler) but I found myself enjoying Furtwängler's eccentricities half the time, half the time
not. Key for me was when I thought I understood what he was up to, I could say, "hmmm, interesting" or "valid" or even "that's great!" but when I couldn't even come close to discerning the point, speeding-up here, slowing-down there, I'm ready to send him back to music school. Love what he does with Brahms' 3rd (I could just hug him); but the opening movement of Mozart's #40 clocks in at a neck-whiplashing 6.54, turning what to me is a fairly ruminative, churning allegro into a romp. Well, I did learn it's marked
molto allegro...! :laugh But then his
andante is a beauty, precise, measured and charming. And so, even if you dislike him, and I do half the time (so far) I think you have to give him credit for making it all the more interesting (reportedly, he despised routine, and he makes me wonder if his path might be part of the answer to bringing more audiences into concert halls). I think I've got to listen to him some more - after some physical therapy for the neck whiplash - and read one of his biographies! And you've got to listen to the rest of the CD's in that set - might have been luck o' the draw? :(
I was not sure where to place this: a review by
Joseph Horowitz of a book by
Roger Allen highly critical of
Furtwaengler's relationship with the Nazis.
The review is not positive. Since the
Wall Street Journal sometimes blocks those who do not subscribe, I will place the entire review here.
Quote
Apostle of Inwardness
One of the most thrilling documents of symphonic music in performance—readily accessible on YouTube—is a clip of Wilhelm Furtwängler leading the Berlin Philharmonic in the closing five minutes of Brahms's Symphony No. 4. Furtwängler is not commanding a performing army. Rather he is channeling a trembling state of heightened emotional awareness so irresistible as to obliterate, in the moment, all previous encounters with the music at hand. This experience is both empowering and—upon reflection—a little scary. And it occurred some three years after the implosion of Hitler's Third Reich—a regime for which Furtwängler, though not exactly an advocate, was a potent cultural symbol.
In 20th-century classical music, the iconic embodiment of the fight for democratic freedoms was the Italian conductor Arturo Toscanini, who fled Europe and galvanized opposition to Hitler and Mussolini. Furtwängler (1886-1954), who remained behind, was Toscanini's iconic antipode, eschewing the objective clarity of Toscanini's literalism in favor of Teutonic ideals of lofty subjective spirituality.
Furtwängler was inaccurately denounced in America as a Nazi. His de-Nazification proceedings were misreported in the New York Times. Afterward, he was prevented by a blacklist from conducting the Chicago Symphony or the Metropolitan Opera, both of which wanted him.
Furtwängler was no Nazi. Behind the scenes, he helped Jewish musicians. Before the war ended, he fled Germany for Switzerland. Even so, his insistence on being "nonpolitical" was naive and self-deluded. As a tool of Hitler and Goebbels, he potently abetted the German war effort. In effect, he lent his prestige to the Third Reich whenever he performed, whether in Berlin or abroad. He was also famously photographed shaking hands with Goebbels from the stage.
In "Wilhelm Furtwängler: Art and the Politics of the Unpolitical," Roger Allen, a fellow at St. Peter's College, Oxford, doesn't dwell on any of this. Rather he undertakes a deeper inquiry and asks: Did Furtwängler espouse a characteristically German cultural-philosophical mind-set that in effect embedded Hitler? He answers yes. But the answer is glib.
Mr. Allen's method is to cull a mountain of Furtwängler writings. That Furtwängler at all times embodied what Thomas Mann in 1945 called "the German-Romantic counter-revolution in intellectual history" is documented beyond question. He was an apostle of Germanic inwardness. He endorsed the philosophical precepts of Hegel and the musical analyses of Heinrich Schenker, for whom German composers mattered most. All this, Mr. Allen shows, propagated notions of "organic" authenticity recapitulated by Nazi ideologues.
Furtwängler's writings as sampled here (others are better) are repetitious—and so, alas, is Mr. Allen's commentary. The tensions and paradoxes complicating Furtwängler's devil's pact, his surrender to communal ecstasies ennobling or perilous, are reduced to simplistic presumption. Furtwängler's murky Germanic thinking remains murky and uncontextualized. One would never know, from Mr. Allen's exegesis, that Hegel formulated a sophisticated "holistic" alternative to the Enlightenment philosophies undergirding Anglo-American understandings of free will. One would never suspect that Schenkerian analysis, extrapolating the fundamental harmonic subcurrents upon which Furtwängler's art feasted, is today alive and well.
Here's an example. Furtwängler writes: "Bruckner is one of the few geniuses . . . whose appointed task was to express the transcendental in human terms, to weave the power of God into the fabric of human life. Be it in struggles against demonic forces, or in music of blissful transfiguration, his whole mind and spirit were infused with thoughts of the divine." Mr. Allen comments: "It is this idea, with its anti-intellectual subtext, which associates Furtwängler so strongly with aspects of Nazi ideology. . . . That Bruckner's music represents the power of God at work in the fabric of human existence, can be seen as an extension of the Nazi . . . belief in God as a mystical creative power." But many who revere Brucknerian "divine bliss" are neither anti-intellectual nor religiously inclined.
A much more compelling section of Mr. Allen's narrative comes at the end, when he observes that Furtwängler blithely maintained his musical ideology after World War II, with no evident pause for reflection. One can agree that this says something unpleasant about the Furtwängler persona, suggesting a nearly atavistic truculence. But it is reductionist to analogize Furtwängler's unrelenting postwar hostility to nontonal music to "the non-rational censure of 'degenerate' art by the Nazis." Far more interesting is Furtwängler's own argument that the nontonal music of Arnold Schoenberg and his followers lacks an "overview." A calibrated long-range trajectory of musical thought was an essential ingredient of Furtwängler's interpretive art. Absent the tension-and-release dynamic of tonal harmony, he had little to work with.
The political dangers inherent in German Romantic music are a familiar concern, beginning with Nietzsche's skewerings of Wagner. The best writer on this topic remains Thomas Mann, who lived it. Here he is in "Reflections of a Non-Political Man" (1918): "Art will never be moral or virtuous in any political sense: and progress will never be able to put its trust in art. It has a fundamental tendency to unreliability and treachery; its . . . predilection for the 'barbarism' that begets beauty [is] indestructible; and although some may call this predilection . . . immoral to the point of endangering the world, yet it is an imperishable fact of life, and if one wanted to eradicate this aspect of art . . . then one might well have freed the world from a serious danger; but in the process one would almost certainly have freed it from art itself."
With the coming of Hitler, Mann changed his tune and moved to California. The most impressive pages of Mr. Allen's book come in an appendix: Mann's lecture "Germany and the Germans," delivered at the Library of Congress in 1945. Mann here becomes a proud American: "Everything else would have meant too narrow and specific an alienation of my existence. As an American I am a citizen of the world."
It is pertinent to remember that seven years later, having witnessed the Cold War and the Red Scare, Mann deserted the U.S. for Switzerland; as early as 1951 he wrote to a friend: "I have no desire to rest my bones in this soulless soil to which I owe nothing, and which knows nothing of me."
Wilhelm Furtwängler's refusal to emigrate, however else construed, is not irrelevant here. He processed much differently the stresses that drove Thomas Mann into permanent exile.
—Mr. Horowitz is the author of "Understanding Toscanini," among many other books.
See:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/wilhelm-furtwangler-review-apostle-of-inwardness-1533331650 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/wilhelm-furtwangler-review-apostle-of-inwardness-1533331650)
Am enjoying this epic work (1944/5) which conveys a strong sense of looming catastrophe:
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