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The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: Harry on June 09, 2007, 04:36:53 AM

Title: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Harry on June 09, 2007, 04:36:53 AM
My first dip into this composer on a Naxos disc, Violin Concerto, and 18th Symphony, makes me eager for more.
So I looked on the JPC site, and found a recording of his third Symphony, and ordered that. The other Naxos recordings under Lenard I am suspect about, but if someone who knows them says oke, I am willing to explore, but there is rather a great amount of singing and sopranos, so better not.
I am eager to hear about other recordings around, to build up a collection of Brian.
Anyone willing to guide me? :)


The ones below are the ones I have, well almost, ordered the Helios today.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on June 09, 2007, 05:16:31 AM
There's quite a collection of Brian fans here - in fact, a motley crew of ex-HB Society members, of whom I am one. No time for a longer list right now, but that Helios disc is a winner. For a single rec. I'd urge you most strongly to get the EMI twofer that includes, among other things, Brian's 7-9th Symphonies, all among his finest pieces; the 8th, though, is something else: one of my very favourite of all 20th century symphonies, utterly original, concise and powerful

As for the infamous Gothic - yes, it has choirs a plenty, of course, and the odd nice bit of solo soprano vocalise, but don't let that put you off. The first three movements are like a large-scale purely orchestral late Romantic symphony in themselves, fascinating in their mainly dark, brooding moods lit by odd rays of weird sunshine, the whole certain to grab the listener strongly by the throat. Indeed, you have the composer's license to stop listening at that point if you really can't stomach the vocal stuff to follow, where the mammoth forces really kick in.

Edit - Harry, I know it was a slip of the finger, but change the name in the thread title from Havergail to Havergal! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on June 09, 2007, 05:19:09 AM
Brian's most famous work, and the one work that Brian fans consider to be a great masterpiece, is his symphony #1, known as Gothic. As a big fan of much of Brian's music, I must admit I hear nothing in that work whatsoever. Maybe it is my loss. But anyway, the other symphonies I have heard (around 8 or 10 of them) are all uneven within each work but overall very very good. I personally would not hesitate to get more. At least this guy is not boring (something English composers of the same period has often been accused of), with moments of wonder in many of his works and the occasional touch of genius.

Get what you can. He certainly deserves far more attention than many of the composers no one has ever heard of in you huge collecion!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Harry on June 09, 2007, 05:41:02 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 09, 2007, 05:16:31 AM
There's quite a collection of Brian fans here - in fact, a motley crew of ex-HB Society members, of whom I am one. No time for a longer list right now, but that Helios disc is a winner. For a single rec. I'd urge you most strongly to get the EMI twofer that includes, among other things, Brian's 7-9th Symphonies, all among his finest pieces; the 8th, though, is something else: one of my very favourite of all 20th century symphonies, utterly original, concise and powerful

As for the infamous Gothic - yes, it has choirs a plenty, of course, and the odd nice bit of solo soprano vocalise, but don't let that put you off. The first three movements are like a large-scale purely orchestral late Romantic symphony in themselves, fascinating in their mainly dark, brooding moods lit by odd rays of weird sunshine, the whole certain to grab the listener strongly by the throat. Indeed, you have the composer's license to stop listening at that point if you really can't stomach the vocal stuff to follow, where the mammoth forces really kick in.

Edit - Harry, I know it was a slip of the finger, but change the name in the thread title from Havergail to Havergal! :)

Blimey, yes saw that, and corrected it. :-[
Will incorperate the EMI recordings, also the advice of Sarge! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Harry on June 09, 2007, 05:42:09 AM
Quote from: springrite on June 09, 2007, 05:19:09 AM

Get what you can. He certainly deserves far more attention than many of the composers no one has ever heard of in you huge collecion!


;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2007, 06:27:27 AM
Quote from: Harry on June 09, 2007, 04:36:53 AM
My first dip into this composer on a Naxos disc, Violin Concerto, and 18th Symphony, makes me eager for more.
So I looked on the JPC site, and found a recording of his third Symphony, and ordered that. The other Naxos recordings under Lenard I am suspect about, but if someone who knows them says oke, I am willing to explore, but there is rather a great amount of singing and sopranos, so better not.

Only two Brian symphonies employ female yodelers: avoid the Fourth and the Gothic (...if you must) and purchase the rest with confidence. The thing about Brian is: you have very little choice...well, no choice really. But all the performances I own (and I think I have everything that's been released on LP and CD) are at least competent and let you hear the music. We Brian fanatics pray daily that some sympathetic conductor on Brian's wave-length, with a great orchestra, will take up the challenge. But, like the Second Coming, I'm not going to hold my breath until it happens. In the meantime, I'll take anything I can get.

By the way, I completely agree with Luke. The first three (purely orchestral) movements of the Gothic can make a satisfying whole. Everyone needs to hear that Vivace!

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2007, 06:31:31 AM
Quote from: springrite on June 09, 2007, 05:19:09 AM
Brian's most famous work, and the one work that Brian fans consider to be a great masterpiece, is his symphony #1, known as Gothic. As a big fan of much of Brian's music, I must admit I hear nothing in that work whatsoever.

BE GONE, UNBELIEVER!!!

Sarge

P.S. Seriously, not even the Vivace moved you?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Harry on June 09, 2007, 06:32:26 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2007, 06:27:27 AM
Only two Brian symphonies employ yodelers: avoid the Fourth and the Gothic (...if you must) and purchase the rest with confidence. The thing about Brian is: you have very little choice...well, no choice really. But all the performances I own (and I think I have everything that's been released on LP and CD) are at least competent and let you hear the music. We Brian fanatics pray daily that some sympathetic conductor on Brian's wave-length, with a great orchestra, will take up the challenge. But, like the Second Coming, I'm not going to hold my breath until it happens. In the meantime, I'll take anything I can get.

By the way, I completely agree with Luke. The first three (purely orchestral) movements of the Gothic can make a satisfying whole. Everyone needs to hear that Vivace!

Sarge

Right Sarge, I will act on your and others advice is just doing that. I have seen that he is poorly represented in the catalogue, but what there is I will buy. Were to find the EMI set in Europe is still a question for me, since I am not aquainted with Amazon, and never bought there my cd's.
So have to find out how to do that.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Larry Rinkel on June 09, 2007, 09:02:59 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2007, 06:31:31 AM
BE GONE, UNBELIEVER!!!

Sarge

P.S. Seriously, not even the Vivace moved you?

Maybe it moved him to exit the room . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Bonehelm on June 09, 2007, 10:32:13 AM
His gothic symphony is quite possibly the only work in the repertoire that can stand up to Mahler's eighth in terms of scale and mass...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on June 09, 2007, 10:41:07 AM
Except it isn't in the repertoire, unfortunately! But on those two measures, it more than outdoes Mahler 8, as far as that matters. They come from the same 'place', of course (Brian was even planning to set the same section of Goethe's Faust in the Finale, before the Te Deum 'pushed itself forwards'), but Brian also outdoes Mahler by Gustav's own standards, in creating a symphony that 'like the world, has everything', from Victoria to Varese
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Bonehelm on June 09, 2007, 11:46:27 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 09, 2007, 10:41:07 AM
Except it isn't in the repertoire, unfortunately! But on those two measures, it more than outdoes Mahler 8, as far as that matters. They come from the same 'place', of course (Brian was even planning to set the same section of Goethe's Faust in the Finale, before the Te Deum 'pushed itself forwards'), but Brian also outdoes Mahler by Gustav's own standards, in creating a symphony that 'like the world, has everything', from Victoria to Varese

Whatever, I'm sure Mahler is the more respected composer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on June 09, 2007, 05:41:49 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2007, 06:31:31 AM
BE GONE, UNBELIEVER!!!

Sarge

P.S. Seriously, not even the Vivace moved you?

I only went as far as the Vivace twice, by which time I was already spent.

Quote from: Bonehelm on June 09, 2007, 10:32:13 AM
His gothic symphony is quite possibly the only work in the repertoire that can stand up to Mahler's eighth in terms of scale and mass...

That is the problem for me. I was it to be able to stand up to Mahler's 8th in terms other than just scale and mass!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: johnQpublic on June 09, 2007, 07:57:40 PM
Brian sucks.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Bonehelm on June 09, 2007, 08:25:55 PM
Quote from: johnQpublic on June 09, 2007, 07:57:40 PM
Brian sucks.

Didn't need you to make him worse.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on June 09, 2007, 10:19:35 PM
Quote from: springrite on June 09, 2007, 05:41:49 PM
I only went as far as the Vivace twice, by which time I was already spent.
That is the problem for me. I was it to be able to stand up to Mahler's 8th in terms other than just scale and mass!

Well, then. Here is yet another voice that feels urged to declare solemnly:
1. That in his opinion Brian's Gothic outshines Mahler's Thousand in all respects mentioned already, but first and for all musically;
2. That the first free, purely orchestral, movements are all superb, but that the third one, Vivace, stands for nothing less but sheer wizardry: some of the best orchestral music ever written. Oh, please try it again. It's the only musical equivalent I ever encountered of another experience of pure bliss: descending the Swiss-Italian Alps after a long climb (by bike), heading to the south. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Harry on June 09, 2007, 11:23:54 PM
Quote from: Christo on June 09, 2007, 10:19:35 PM
Well, then. Here is yet another voice that feels urged to declare solemnly:
1. That in his opinion Brian's Gothic outshines Mahler's Thousand in all respects mentioned already, but first and for all musically;
2. That the first free, purely orchestral, movements are all superb, but that the third one, Vivace, stands for nothing less but sheer wizardry: some of the best orchestral music ever written. Oh, please try it again. It's the only musical equivalent I ever encountered of another experience of pure bliss: descending the Swiss-Italian Alps after a long climb (by bike), heading to the south. 

Calm down my friend I will try it, all of it, honestly! ;D
And Paul too, he was just a tad tired when he listen twice to the Vivace. ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on June 10, 2007, 01:23:13 AM
Quote from: springrite on June 09, 2007, 05:41:49 PM
I only went as far as the Vivace twice, by which time I was already spent.

That is the problem for me. I was it to be able to stand up to Mahler's 8th in terms other than just scale and mass!

This really surprises me, Paul. The first 3 movements of the Gothic are not hugely long, nor are they at all difficult listening - they are rugged and hard-bitten but intensely evocative in tone, I think. To be perfectly honest, I think they stand up to Mahler 8 well on pretty much every level; in fact I think that they surpass it on most, though take that in the context that Mahler 8 is IMO Mahler's least attractive work by some distance.

The second, choral part of the Gothic is a different matter; though it is the part which has led to the Mahler 8 comparison, I think that in reality it is a more original structure, and one where comparisons are more difficult to draw. It is like a stylistic vortex, which sucks in more and more of the world until the last 5 minutes leave one reeling as they lurch from one stylistic and dynamic extreme to the other without any loss of congruity or coherence - the music is held together by sheer strength of mind and conviction. I don't know anything else like this achievement in all music, and it makes Mahler 8 look pretty conventional in comparison.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on June 10, 2007, 02:24:59 AM
So which recording Gothic to we recommend? If there is more than one recording? - I have only seen the Naxos one, but have never heard a note of his music.

He wrote a cello concerto very late in his career (1966) which I believe has only been played and broadcast once. I'd like to hear that as well.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: BachQ on June 10, 2007, 03:36:07 AM
Quote from: Guido on June 10, 2007, 02:24:59 AM
So which recording Gothic to we recommend? If there is more than one recording? - I have only seen the Naxos one, but have never heard a note of his music.

He wrote a cello concerto very late in his career (1966) which I believe has only been played and broadcast once. I'd like to hear that as well.

1 performance, 2 recordings.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2007, 03:39:24 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on June 09, 2007, 09:02:59 AM
Maybe it moved him to exit the room . . . .

Yes, apparently  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2007, 03:46:02 AM
Here's a site with information and many links to further articles about the Gothic.
Includes the timings of various performances.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/brian/sym1.htm

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2007, 03:51:36 AM
Quote from: Guido on June 10, 2007, 02:24:59 AM
So which recording Gothic to we recommend? If there is more than one recording?

Besides Lenard's on Marco Polo or Naxos, I've heard rumours that there are boots of Boult's 1966 performance. I've never been able to get my hands on one though. For all practical purposes then, Lenard is it. Not to worry: it's a very good performance, and of course, inexpensive now.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: BachQ on June 10, 2007, 03:58:17 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2007, 03:46:02 AM
Here's a site with information and many links to further articles about the Gothic.
Includes the timings of various performances.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/brian/sym1.htm

Sarge

Why is this called a symphony, when it's really like a sinfonietta?

Part one:

2 piccolos (1 also flute), 3 flutes (1 also alto flute), 2 oboes,  oboe d'amore, cor anglais,  bass oboe, Eb clarinet, 2  Bb clarinets, basset horn, bass clarinet, 3 bassoons, contrabassoon, 6 horns, Eb cornet, 4 trumpets in F, bass trumpet, 3 tenor trombones, 2 tubas, 2 sets (min 3 drums) timpani, 2 harps, organ, celesta, min 8 percussion:  glockenspiel, xylophone, 2 bass drums, 3 side drums, tambourine, pair cymbals, gong, triangle;  strings [say 16.16.12.10.8]

Part two:

Soprano, alto, tenor, bass soloists, large children's choir, 2 large mixed double choruses [in practice 4 large SATB choirs]
orchestra: 2 piccolos (1 also flute), 6 flutes (1 also alto flute), 6 oboes (1 also oboe d'amore, 1 also bass oboe), 2 cors anglais, 2 Eb clarinets (1 also Bb clarinet), 4  Bb clarinets, 2 basset horns, 2 bass clarinets, contrabass clarinet, 3 bassoons, 2 contrabassoons, 8 horns, 2 Eb cornets, 4 trumpets in F, bass trumpet, 3 tenor trombones, bass trombone, contrabass trombone, 2 euphoniums, 2 tubas, 2 sets (min 3 [in practice 4] drums) timpani, 2 harps, organ, celesta, min 18 percussion:  glockenspiel, xylophone, 2 bass drums, 3 side drums, long drum, 2 tambourines, 6 pairs cymbals, gong, thunder machine [not thunder sheet], tubular bells, chimes, chains, 2 triangles, birdscare;   strings (20.20.16.14.12)
4 off stage groups: each containing 2 horns, 2 trumpets, 2 tenor trombones, set (min 3 drums) of timpani
(in summary: 32 wind, 24 on stage brass, 24 off stage brass, 6 timpanists, 18 percussion, 4 keyboards and harps, 82 strings - total orchestra c190 players, plus adult choir of min 500 [assumes largely professionals], children's choir of 100, 4 soloists = c800)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2007, 04:28:33 AM
Quote from: D Minor on June 10, 2007, 03:58:17 AM
Why is this called a symphony, when it's really like a sinfonietta?

;D :D ;D

Quote from: D Minor on June 10, 2007, 03:58:17 AM

18 percussion:  glockenspiel, xylophone, 2 bass drums, 3 side drums, long drum, 2 tambourines, 6 pairs cymbals, gong, thunder machine [not thunder sheet], tubular bells, chimes, chains, 2 triangles, birdscare...

Ah, to be a virtuoso birdscare player! That would be the life.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on June 10, 2007, 04:54:39 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 09, 2007, 05:16:31 AM
There's quite a collection of Brian fans here - in fact, a motley crew of ex-HB Society members ...
;) :D 8) >:D 0:) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on June 10, 2007, 04:59:59 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2007, 04:28:33 AM
Ah, to be a virtuoso birdscare player! That would be the life.

The bird-scare, long drum and thunder sheet are marked in the instrumentarium, but don't appear in the score; it's conjectured that they are to be played in the final climax[es] of the piece.

A relatively common instrument like the celesta, believe it or not, only has a very brief appearance in the score, too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on June 10, 2007, 05:01:52 AM
Quote from: Christo on June 10, 2007, 04:54:39 AM
;) :D 8) >:D 0:) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)

That is indeed an exact likeness of the front row of seats which I remember seeing at the HBS-organised premiere of The Cenci a few years ago. ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on June 10, 2007, 05:03:46 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 10, 2007, 05:01:52 AM
That is indeed an exact likeness of the front row of seats which I remember seeing at the HBS-organised premiere of The Cenci a few years ago. ;D

Well, I only attended a HBS London concert with the Violin Concerto and the orchestral music from The Tigers, 12 years ago (1995) - and then the front row still had their teeth.  :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2007, 02:12:19 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 10, 2007, 04:59:59 AM
The bird-scare, long drum and thunder sheet are marked in the instrumentarium, but don't appear in the score...

Unemployed already, even before I'd had a chance to master the instrument. Damn...

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on June 10, 2007, 02:22:19 PM
Consider it a lucky escape - it's a real bugger to tune.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 10, 2007, 11:58:57 PM
As one of the motley former members of the HBS I recommend the following:

Symphony 8 (a masterpiece)

Symphony 10 (a masterpiece) (briefly on Unicorn, we really need a modern CD version)

Symphony 9

Symphony 7

Symphony 3

Sinfonia Brevis (not on CD)

Gothic Symphony (wonderful orchestral movements, choral sections very impressive but go on too long IMHO)

In Memoriam (great work)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Harry on June 11, 2007, 12:03:13 AM
Quote from: Captain Haddock on June 10, 2007, 11:58:57 PM
As one of the motley former members of the HBS I recommend the following:

Symphony 8 (a masterpiece)

Symphony 10 (a masterpiece) (briefly on Unicorn, we really need a modern CD version)

Symphony 9

Symphony 7

Symphony 3

Sinfonia Brevis (not on CD)

Gothic Symphony (wonderful orchestral movements, choral sections very impressive but go on too long IMHO)

In Memoriam (great work)

Fine list my friend, matching recordings? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on June 11, 2007, 01:11:46 AM
There is only one of each (except the Sinfonia Brevis). 7, 8 and 9 are on the EMi disc I recommend above all; 3 you have ordered; 10 was on Unicorn (the pioneering orchestra is my old youth orchestra, the LSSO!); the Gothic is on Marco Polo or Naxos (same recording, different incarnations); In Memoriam is on one of the Marco Polo Brian series.

For my money any of the first 12 or so Brian Symphonies, in particular, offer the easiest way into his music - 12 very different masterpieces each with its own tone. The larger scale earlier symphonies (1-4 are all huge, with 4 nearly as big as the Gothic in some respects) give way to slightly more modest-sized pieces (though 7 is a very large one too). The later symphonies are the models of concision, and very possibly even finer works, , but Brian's undiluted style probably needs assimilating through the earlier works first.

One word of advice - in Brian's music it is important to listen to the bass as a melodic line more than in any other comparable composer. No one else makes their trombones, euphoniums, tubas, bassoons and double basses work quite as hard as he does!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Harry on June 11, 2007, 01:26:22 AM
Thanks for the info, I will act on this and other advise given in this thread.
I look forward to the recordings I can lay my hands on.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hector on June 11, 2007, 04:35:30 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2007, 03:51:36 AM
Besides Lenard's on Marco Polo or Naxos, I've heard rumours that there are boots of Boult's 1966 performance. I've never been able to get my hands on one though. For all practical purposes then, Lenard is it. Not to worry: it's a very good performance, and of course, inexpensive now.

Sarge

There is a bootleg of Boult's 60's performance I think somebody on this board may have heard it.

Surely, the Beeb has tapes of either/or the Boult and the Schmidt, or knows somebody who has?

Certainly, there are plenty of conductors, orchestras and record companies around able to process a Brian cycle.

In fact, wasn't Marco Polo/Naxos doing this with the likes of Leaper and Friend?

Lloyd-Jones springs to mind.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 04:56:30 AM
Quote from: Hector on June 11, 2007, 04:35:30 AM
Certainly, there are plenty of conductors, orchestras and record companies around able to process a Brian cycle.
In fact, wasn't Marco Polo/Naxos doing this with the likes of Leaper and Friend?

Yes, they were...and then they suddenly stopped circa 1995. That's very unlike this company, one that has a spendid history of providing complete cycles. I've never heard an explanation why they stopped. Maybe there really is only a dozen Brian fanatics on this planet...not enough to sustain the cycle  ;D


Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 11, 2007, 01:11:46 AM
In Memoriam is on one of the Marco Polo Brian series.

On this one, a very important recording as it allows us to hear Brian's final symphony:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/berlin/Brian32.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hector on June 11, 2007, 05:53:16 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 04:56:30 AM
Yes, they were...and then they suddenly stopped circa 1995. That's very unlike this company, one that has a spendid history of providing complete cycles. I've never heard an explanation why they stopped. Maybe there really is only a dozen Brian fanatics on this planet...not enough to sustain the cycle  ;D


On this one, a very important recording as it allows us to hear Brian's final symphony:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/berlin/Brian32.jpg)


Sarge

On the ball, as usual.

Perhaps we should write to Heyman and ask why the cycle ceased.

Leaper would be more than capable.

Considering some of the obscure composers hardly worthy of such attention (Hans Huber) that get on disc it is surprising that Brian has not, so far, received his recorded due!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 06:00:18 AM
I think the idea is they're waiting until the Dittersdwarf cycle is complete  >:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 06:18:49 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 06:00:18 AM
I think the idea is they're waiting until the Dittersdwarf cycle is complete  >:D

dB will be very pleased to hear that.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 06:19:37 AM
Quote from: Hector on June 11, 2007, 05:53:16 AM
On the ball, as usual.

Perhaps we should write to Heyman and ask why the cycle ceased.

Good idea, Hector. I'll do that.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 06:20:21 AM
I've listened to 1, 4, 12, 8, and 9 and they are all horrible music. Densely scored, unmemorable tunes (there is a nice folksy little violin solo in the beginning of the 1st - I say beginning since I can't get through the whole thing no matter how hard I try). The rest is a mixture of salon music, noise, and bits and pieces of Holst and Shostakovich but showing nowhere near the maturity or skill of either one.

I am sorry, I think Maro Polo sense a loser coming (the sound sucked too in all those recordings) so they cut the cycle before losing too much $$$.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 06:23:39 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 06:20:21 AM
I've listened to 1, 4, 12, 8, and 9 and they are all horrible music. Densely scored, unmemorable tunes (there is a nice folksy little violin solo in the beginning of the 1st - I say beginning since I can't get through the whole thing no matter how hard I try). The rest is a mixture of salon music, noise, and bits and pieces of Holst and Shostakovich but showing nowhere near the maturity or skill of either one.

I am sorry, I think Maro Polo sense a loser coming (the sound sucked too in all those recordings) so they cut the cycle before losing too much $$$.

Then you'll be pleased about the Dittersdorf cycle.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 06:24:51 AM
Well, he deserves a little happiness, too.

Personally, I'm more curious about this thread's namesake.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 06:44:52 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 06:24:51 AM
Well, he deserves a little happiness, too.

Personally, I'm more curious about this thread's namesake.

What namesake?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: pjme on June 11, 2007, 09:16:29 AM
But there is definitely some very beautiful music by Brian.

As so often : an uneven composer IMO,( cfr. Langgaard, Milhaud, Petterson,Bax etc). Still he has -like the other composers mentioned- this unique voice ,or handwriting - character. Even if one doesn't like the music, it can be recognised immediately.

Wait till next year, when Lyrita will re-issue symphonies 6 (Tragica) and 16. Very good performances of accessible works (LPO /Myer Fredman). Neither overlong, nor frustratingly short.
Beautiful melodies, a sense of drama & vision.

I haven't heard all his works ,of course, but it can be very tough, weird - rambling.

I have fond memories of symphony nr 5 "Wine of summer" for baritone & orch. ( alas only on tape) - more overtly "emotional" than the more abstract, late symphonies.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 09:30:14 AM
Quote from: pjme on June 11, 2007, 09:16:29 AM
But there is definitely some very beautiful music by Brian...Wait till next year, when Lyrita will re-issue symphonies 6 (Tragica) and 16. Very good performances of accessible works (LPO /Myer Fredman). Neither overlong, nor frustratingly short. Beautiful melodies, a sense of drama & vision.

Definitely. Couldn't agree more. Along with the Gothic, the 16th is my favorite of the 21 I've heard so far. Still cherish my old LP.

Quote from: pjme on June 11, 2007, 09:16:29 AM
I haven't heard all his works, of course, but it can be very tough, weird - rambling.

Which is why we love him so much  ;D  But, seriously, his music can be difficult to penetrate. I don't fault those who give up early on Brian.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 09:32:08 AM
The upside must be: tough, weird rambling is corn to a Mahler-lover's sickle  ;D

Don't lose hope, Sarge!  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 09:40:38 AM
PS/ Sarge, I tried to PM, but I'm told your inbox is full . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 11:02:56 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 09:40:38 AM
PS/ Sarge, I tried to PM, but I'm told your inbox is full . . . .

Really? A gold subscriber and my inbox is full? Scandalous. I demand more space!!!  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 11:05:21 AM
Hmm. Sounds like a bug.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 11:07:33 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 11:05:21 AM
Hmm. Sounds like a bug.

Could be. I had five pages worth of mail. Is that excessive do you think? I think I used to have more than that on the old forum before I became a subscriber. Anyway, I've cleaned the box and if you want, you can try again.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on June 11, 2007, 11:19:17 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 06:20:21 AM
I've listened to 1, 4, 12, 8, and 9 and they are all horrible music. Densely scored, unmemorable tunes


nah....he is more like Mahler in this than you care to imagine; what I mean is that he has got a limited number of tune-types/rhythmic types, and after that they are all only variations thereon - the last three movements of the Gothic, for instance, feature a plethora of tunes which are just variations of an unheard  proto-tune based on the augmented triad. Mahler 8 actually uses a similar technique IMO. Which isn't a limitation in either composer - this constant protean metamorphosis is part of their style, and it is a mark of the deep-rootedness and genuineness of both composers that their music always sounds like them and no one else.

In any case, I would have no problem singing to you all the melodic material of the Brian symphonies I am familiar with. It's at its strongest, IMO in Symphonies 1, 3, 7 and 8, all of which are packed with wonderful things. The scherzo of no 3, in particular, proves that Brian could compose 'like every one else' when he wanted to.

Densely scored? Certainly, he has a distinctive juggernaut sound, those lurching marches, thudding chords and bass-directed textures; there is a deliberate brutal clumsiness built in - a typical Brian texture is a lumbering march destroying all in its path, and that no doubt reflects a deep and constant concern of his; there is little point in criticising its musical realisation, I think for it does the job it is designed for perfectly.
In any case, the scoring - study it - is an absolute model of its type. And when he wants to be delicate he can do it like no-one else. There are wraith-like passages in my favourite 8th Symphony as weird and delicate as anything in Berlioz.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 06:20:21 AM(there is a nice folksy little violin solo in the beginning of the 1st - I say beginning since I can't get through the whole thing no matter how hard I try). The rest is a mixture of salon music, noise, and bits and pieces of Holst and Shostakovich but showing nowhere near the maturity or skill of either one.

The 'nice folksy violin solo' is a marvel indeed, but seen by some as a big formal misjudgement - it stops the momentum of this huge symphony before it has really got started. Personally I think it is perfect in its place, showing us, before we expected it, the still flip-side of the intense, turbulent music already heard. This is a principle in operation throughout the symphony, possibly best seen in the Vivace third movement. It is also an early example of the juddering juxtaposition of extremes for which Brian is famous, and which in the 8th symphony audibly becomes the formal basis of the whole piece - militaristic music v. lyricism, both driven to ever wilder and more ecstatic extremes in briefer and briefer cross cuts. Wild stuff. But I digress.

It is a mistake, btw, to see Brian as relating to Holst and especially Shostakovich, his junior by 30 years. He is a very different figure to both. Mahler is actually a good comparison in many ways, but few other composers are.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 06:20:21 AMI am sorry, I think Maro Polo sense a loser coming (the sound sucked too in all those recordings) so they cut the cycle before losing too much $$$.

The sound wasn't great. But as far as I recall, that wasn't the whole story.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 11, 2007, 11:24:31 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2007, 11:07:33 AM
Anyway, I've cleaned the box and if you want, you can try again.

Success!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 11:43:54 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 11, 2007, 11:19:17 AM


Densely scored? Certainly, he has a distinctive juggernaut sound, those lurching marches, thudding chords and bass-directed textures; there is a deliberate brutal clumsiness built in - a typical Brian texture is a lumbering march destroying all in its path, and that no doubt reflects a deep and constant concern of his; there is little point in criticising its musical realisation, I think for it does the job it is designed for perfectly.
In any case, the scoring - study it - is an absolute model of its type. And when he wants to be delicate he can do it like no-one else. There are wraith-like passages in my favourite 8th Symphony as weird and delicate as anything in Berlioz.


I just have a problem hearing which ever way Brian is going. Mahler's scoring is very clear, you more or less hear what each instrument (or group of instruments) is going. With Brian it seems like they are each going off in different directions and not really related to each other in a meaningful way. But I admit I have not dedicated a vast amount of time listening to him.

The piece that I have the most problem with is the 4th symphony which is an interminable 60 minutes long. Maybe it is the performance also but everything just seems it is repeated over and over for the whole hour.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on June 11, 2007, 11:59:00 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 11:43:54 AM
I just have a problem hearing which ever way Brian is going. Mahler's scoring is very clear, you more or less hear what each instrument (or group of instruments) is going. With Brian it seems like they are each going off in different directions and not really related to each other in a meaningful way. But I admit I have not dedicated a vast amount of time listening to him.

Well, I think you've correctly diagnosed one of the main Brian symptom! But then again, though I think Mahler is a good point of comparison, they are very different composers, and though I'd never suggest that Brian has Mahler's quality, he does share his strength of character and individuality. The reason I say this is that I think it is misleading to listen to Brian with expectations based on Mahler (or any other contemporary of his, for that matter). The hardest thing about Brian, then, is that these are obviously late Romantic symphonies, but they make little sense if one listens to them in that way. Brian is unique, for instance, in basing his melodic focus around the bass as much as he does; it takes a readjustment to get used to that. Then again, the 'going off in different directions' that you hear is not a misjudgement by a composer attempting the clarity of a Mahler and found wanting - it is a fundamental part of his style. Like all great Romantic composers, Brian's style is a deeply personal thing, formed from his profoundest experiences, and so, though it's hard to get into, it is worth putting one's trust in until one 'gets' it. Something about the clumsy-sounding nature of some of Brian's music, though this is as deliberate a part of his sound as Mahler's weltschmerz, unfortunately leads many listeners not to want to invest this trust in him. I think that is the root of his problem.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 11:43:54 AMThe piece that I have the most problem with is the 4th symphony which is an interminable 60 minutes long. Maybe it is the performance also but everything just seems it is repeated over and over for the whole hour.

Well, I will say that the 4th is really intense piece, Brian's most brutal and maliciously ironic work, perhaps, with all his typical shuddering juxtapositions and fragmentations present as much or more than in any other work of his. The sense of everything being repeated is not entirely wrong - but then, as I suggested before, it would be possible to say the same of Mahler too (Mahler 8 in particular, again); it's just that Gustav's language is more mellifluous and less potentially infuriating! As I implied above, it invites our trust more easily.

But if you want to give Brian a fair chance, I can only reiterate - try the EMI disc of 7, 8 and 9. If these three, and 8 particularly  - Brian at his very best, without a weak bar - don't convert you, then I will give up happily  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 12:05:15 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 11, 2007, 11:59:00 AM
Something about the clumsy-sounding nature of some of Brian's music, though this is as deliberate a part of his sound as Mahler's weltschmerz, unfortunately leads many listeners not to want to invest this trust in him. I think that is the root of his problem.

But if you want to give Brian a fair chance, I can only reiterate - try the EMI disc of 7, 8 and 9. If these three, and 8 particularly  - Brian at his very best, without a weak bar - don't convert you, then I will give up happily  :)

Of course I know it is unfair to compare Brian with Mahler but I am going to anyway. With Mahler even things that are meant to sound clumsy are done with such panache and flair. Take for example the second movement of the 9th symphony which Mahler wants to sound a little clumsy and like a country dance. But it is extremely deftly scored, light, and colorful. What comes across is anything but coarse.

I have the EMI disc of 8th and 9th (I have an earlier release so 7 is not included). I will give it another spin tonight.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on June 11, 2007, 01:06:34 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2007, 12:05:15 PM
Of course I know it is unfair to compare Brian with Mahler but I am going to anyway. With Mahler even things that are meant to sound clumsy are done with such panache and flair. Take for example the second movement of the 9th symphony which Mahler wants to sound a little clumsy and like a country dance. But it is extremely deftly scored, light, and colorful. What comes across is anything but coarse.

Absolutely; I just think that Brian often intends the coarseness. Underlying a lot of Brian is this lumbering militarism - the horrors of WWI haunt his music in this way - which is not something that Mahler attempts anywhere as far as I remember
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 11, 2007, 11:34:23 PM
I am also really looking forward to the reappearance of symphonies 6 and 16 on Lyrita (they are having trouble finding an appropriate coupling from their catalogue; I suggested Bantock's Overture to a Greek Tragedy but that has just been issued with works by Holbrooke and Rootham's great Symphony (would appeal to fans of Moeran I think)

Like Langgaard, Brian is a very uneven composer and some of those late symphonies are very dense (although not No 22) but I stand by what I said about 8 and 10 being masterpieces; they possess a great  slumbering power and a kind of craggy poetry which I find both moving and memorable. I recall that a critic wrote that No 10 ends with a sense of hard-won but enduring victory and I agree.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on June 12, 2007, 12:23:30 AM
Quote from: Captain Haddock on June 11, 2007, 11:34:23 PM
...I recall that a critic wrote that No 10 ends with a sense of hard-won but enduring victory and I agree.

In passing - Brian's music is the sort that inspires memorable phrases of this sort. Malcolm MacDonald, who was possibly responsible for the line you quote, also has a memorable line about the way a pp brass chord near the end of the 10th

Quote from: Malcolm MacDonaldstares at us, sphinx-like and inscrutable...it hangs there, athwart the music, utterly static and mysterious. So might some gigantic supernova shine out of the depths of space, a cold, far-off, incomprehensible radiance, yet signifying the deaths of stars and worlds...

after that, as he describes it, the solo violin offers

Quote from: Malcolm MacDonalda last poignant assertion of human integrity, but it also implies reconciliation: the universe is vast and mysterious; peace of mind lies only in a stoic unafraid acceptance of the fact that there will be no answers....'Well, 'tis very well'. The final two quiet bars...have all the deep majesty of the distant night sky, and the calm of the stars in their courses

Hyperbolic stuff, some might think, but this is music of the sort of scale and reach that calls for such writing, much as Mahler and Wagner's music has been garlanded in similar ways - and no one can doubt that MacDonald has hit upon some appropriate imagery for the end of this last symphony of a triptych of 'brothers'. Not only that, but also - at the time of writing that, Brian's music was even less known than it is now, and was still at the stage where it needed cool passionless analysis less than it needed simply to be described in print.

As in his Brahms and Schoenberg books, MacDonald proves himself one of the most persuasive, passionate and understanding of music writer in his books on the Brian symphonies  - they are chock-full of such apt metaphors and perfect, pertinent similes (dozens leap to mind as I write this) and it seems to me that they may help people struggling with Brian to grasp the essence of his music verbally, giving them an idea of the direction from which to approach him.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on June 12, 2007, 04:28:32 AM
Ah, yess, Malcolm MacDonald! I recall him sitting in our much-commented front-row ( ;D >:D :-X :o 8) ;D 0:) :-[ :P) back in 1995 - scores on his knees. But he didn't need them, he was nodding and humming all through the 50 minutes or so of the orchestral parts of The Tigers - knowing all of it by head, no doubt.

(Btw, I also recall Bisengaliev playing the whole develishly difficult Violin Concerto by head - and even better than in the recorded version).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 12, 2007, 05:00:31 AM
I think that it was Harold Truscott (also the composer of a fine symphony) who wrote about the sense of hard-won victory at the end of Brian's 10th.  Robert Simpson also wrote eloquently about Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 05:37:31 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 12, 2007, 12:23:30 AM
As in his Brahms and Schoenberg books, MacDonald proves himself one of the most persuasive, passionate and understanding of music writer in his books on the Brian symphonies  - they are chock-full of such apt metaphors and perfect, pertinent similes...

Here's my favorite quote from MacDonald's magnificent three-volume The Symphonies of Havergal Brian. It describes the most intense ending of a piece of music I've ever heard: the conclusion of the third movement (Vivace) and Part I of the Gothic:

"The music heaves like a plain on which great armies are embattled. Side-drum and upper woodwind beat out a manic pounding rhythm against which strings play a tough ostinato. Bassoons and tubas make a bass of the "saurian" theme in altered rhythm, while the rest of the brass have the lions's share of glory in a vast series of canonic entries. Trumpets and cornets ring out proudly above the storm, with a note of victory, a sense of triumph and exultation (which must have been Brian's own as he came to the end of this superb movement). The music soars in boundless confidence; harps, xylophone and organ enter with more ostinati; and suddenly it is the climax of the Part I. Brian flings the music back into the home key of D minor with a cadence of astonishing boldness:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gmgpictures/Brian.jpg)

From C major to D minor by way of F sharp, all in three triads: it is the sensational juxtaposition of C and F sharp that is so exhilarating [and shocking, terrifying--Sarge]. Brian has discovered his full powers. He can stride from one end of the tonal universe to the other in a split second: he can make a single cadence bear the dramatic weight of an entire movement. This is the victory of imagination over form.

Back in D minor the music rises to a pinnacle of grandeur before all the instruments hammer home the chord of D, fortissimo, only to be shut out with heart-stopping suddeness. There is a pause, then quietness--a high tremolo in the violins, a soft meditative glow from the bassoons, barely audible timpani to assure us the world is still spinning. Part I of the Gothic ends in a serenely spaced D major triad, adorned with harp arpeggios."

There are three books I've considered absolutely essential in my developing appreciation and understanding of classical music: Charles Rosen's The Classical Style; Robert Simpson's The Essence of Bruckner; and MacDonald's.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 05:42:06 AM
Quote from: MacDonald
. . . This is the victory of imagination over form.

Any first-year theory student who gets his wrist slapped for following one chord in root position, with another root-position chord a tritone away, just needs to cite Brian as a precedent.

Sweet!  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on June 12, 2007, 05:47:27 AM
Absolutely! MacDonald brings it alive. Prompted by this thread, actually, I reread the first chapters of the book this morning, and was bowled over again by the prose. It's simply exciting reading. I was very close to quoting exactly the passage you just did, and also the couple of paragraphs before it - it's one of those sections that is a joy just to read.

In MacDonald's writing, unsurprisingly, similar metaphors return - the score as a battleground, scene of catastrophe and tragedy, and also the celestial mechanics theme - that passage describing the central point of the Gothic's Vivace, for instance, where he talks about the veil being lifted and the engine within being revealed. He gets it spot on. The introduction, too, I was reminding, is sterling stuff, making all the right points succinctly. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 05:50:37 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 05:42:06 AM
Any first-year theory student who gets his wrist slapped for following one chord in root position, with another root-position chord a tritone away, just needs to cite Brian as a precedent.

Sweet!  8)

Students aren't allowed to break the rules. The genius-composer knows he must break the rules. ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 12, 2007, 05:53:26 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 05:50:37 AM
Students aren't allowed to break the rules. The genius-composer knows he must break the rules. ;D

Sarge

Uhhh, I was taught that until you can master the rules you are not allowed to break them.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2007, 05:59:37 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 12, 2007, 05:53:26 AM
Uhhh, I was taught that until you can master the rules you are not allowed to break them.

Again, we'll have to disagree, PW. I'll just say Brian was well-thought of by his contemporaries. The man knew how to compose great music...not to your taste, I understand.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hector on June 12, 2007, 06:11:43 AM
I'm British and I just like the noise he makes.

Then, suddenly, will come a lyrical passage so beguiling...and short!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on June 12, 2007, 06:35:26 AM
Quote from: Hector on June 12, 2007, 06:11:43 AM
I'm British and I just like the noise he makes.

Then, suddenly, will come a lyrical passage so beguiling...and short!

Hehehehe... I felt the same when I heard the 27th symphony. The entire first movement seemed dense and restless to me, then about 4 minutes in (from my very inaccurate memory) a trumpet fanfare burst in, acting like a refreshing tonic, only for the turmoil to continue 3 seconds later. Once the movement was over all I could think was "that entire movement had 3 seconds of melodic material in total, WTF?". Then I thought about it some more and it seemed to "click", he obviously wasn't intending for it to be catchy, so I focused more on the "difficult" bits I that I was initially expecting to dissipate in place of some oldschool Memorable Romantic Themes, but were actually what the symphony turned out to be entirely comprised of...

(Brian is difficult for me to write about, that reads like nonsense)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on June 12, 2007, 06:45:08 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 12, 2007, 05:53:26 AM
Uhhh, I was taught that until you can master the rules you are not allowed to break them.

And Brian had mastered them. Witness his immense and complex Double Fugue for piano -itself, though, just a practise-piece for the Gothic - or, indeed, the amazing counterpoint of the Gothic's choral pages (such as the In te Domine speravi chorus - wow!). That blinding chord sequence is thoroughly justified - as MacDonald says, on tonal and also a kind of serial basis - in what comes before. The tonal trajectory of whole piece is masterfully planned down to the smallest details.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 12, 2007, 11:37:06 PM
Brian's Symphony 6 and 16 will be coupled with Arnold Cooke's Symphony 3 on Lyrita.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hector on June 13, 2007, 02:15:07 AM
Quote from: Lethe on June 12, 2007, 06:35:26 AM
Hehehehe... I felt the same when I heard the 27th symphony. The entire first movement seemed dense and restless to me, then about 4 minutes in (from my very inaccurate memory) a trumpet fanfare burst in, acting like a refreshing tonic, only for the turmoil to continue 3 seconds later. Once the movement was over all I could think was "that entire movement had 3 seconds of melodic material in total, WTF?". Then I thought about it some more and it seemed to "click", he obviously wasn't intending for it to be catchy, so I focused more on the "difficult" bits I that I was initially expecting to dissipate in place of some oldschool Memorable Romantic Themes, but were actually what the symphony turned out to be entirely comprised of...

(Brian is difficult for me to write about, that reads like nonsense)

No it doesn't. It encapsulates my feelings exactly.

The brief lyrical passages go, almost, unnoticed as one endeavours to catch one's breathe after the brilliantly organised "cacophony."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 13, 2007, 05:19:05 AM
Quote from: Captain Haddock on June 12, 2007, 11:37:06 PM
Brian's Symphony 6 and 16 will be coupled with Arnold Cooke's Symphony 3 on Lyrita.

Interesting. I have the LP of the Cooke.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/berlin/Cooke.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on June 13, 2007, 11:09:14 AM
Quote from: Captain Haddock on June 12, 2007, 11:37:06 PM
Brian's Symphony 6 and 16 will be coupled with Arnold Cooke's Symphony 3 on Lyrita.

Great news! I didn't hear any of those three symphonies for 25 years, though I could still whistle the opening and especially the tragic finale of the Sixth from memory. The good news being the coupling: I remember to have had a special liking for Cooke Three, and look forward with anticipation to its release.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hector on June 14, 2007, 06:23:00 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 13, 2007, 05:19:05 AM
Interesting. I have the LP of the Cooke.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/berlin/Cooke.jpg)


Sarge

Why am I not surprised?

I do, seriously, believe your home is HMV, Oxford Street. ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: sound67 on June 17, 2007, 01:46:03 AM
From the recordings made of them, Brian's works display mostly empty grandiloquence (Gothic and Siegeslied symphonies), or, alternatively, clumsiness in orchestration as well as muddled structures and ideas. Try as I might (and as a lover of 20th century English music I REALLY have tried), I find very little of true distinction here. Brian is overrated.

His most accessible work is certainly the Violin Concerto.

Thomas
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 17, 2007, 03:01:05 AM
Quote from: sound67 on June 17, 2007, 01:46:03 AM
Brian is overrated.

Since he's not performed in our concert halls, not recorded, not championed by any famous conductor, not discussed in music magazines and has a miniscule fan base, I'm at a loss as to how he could possibly be characterized as overrated. ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: johnQpublic on June 17, 2007, 07:00:07 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 17, 2007, 03:01:05 AMhow he could possibly be characterized as overrated.

This thread is trying as hard as it can to rate him high, that's for sure.

Personally, I wish you'd let the hack lanquish among the dregs.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on June 17, 2007, 07:35:26 AM
Quote from: sound67 on June 17, 2007, 01:46:03 AM
From the recordings made of them, Brian's works display mostly empty grandiloquence (Gothic and Siegeslied symphonies), or, alternatively, clumsiness in orchestration as well as muddled structures and ideas. Try as I might (and as a lover of 20th century English music I REALLY have tried), I find very little of true distinction here. Brian is overrated.

His most accessible work is certainly the Violin Concerto.

Thomas

I'm going to continue to rate him highly, whatever JQP thinks  ;D

Honestly, the 'clumsy orchestration' and the 'muddled structures' are apprehensible as such only if one approaches Brian expecting 1) another [English] Romantic/Romantic Symphonist and 2) one who isn't all that good anyway, and probably a bit of a crank. As I wrote earlier in this thread, Brian is most obviously approached in this way, and with a certain dubious lack of either trust or positive expectations. I had my own moments of being unsure, I must admit it, as I got to know some of his symponies. But one has to trust him - one has to trust that a musician who was much respected by his peers - by Strauss, Elgar, Bantock, Henry Wood and so on - and who conductors such as Boult, Mackerras, Charles Groves etc saw fit to conduct must have quite a bit going for him.

But this is appeal to higher authority, and I concede that as an argument it isn't enough. I can only repeat and emphasize what I've have already said - that approaching Brian as a Romantic symphonist won't do. One has to make the leap of faith, to trust that, whether he is seen as a major figure or not, his music is something very different from anything else of the time, and shouldn't be listened to as if in competition with composers who are, in essence, working in totally different directions.

The more I listen to Brian the more convinced I am that he had an astonishing and completely original formal sense - it's just that there's absolutely nothing out of the textbook about it. He thinks things through - feels them, I should say - from first principles: a work like the 8th symphony, which I keep touting, is based around a dialectic as strong as anything in Mahler, but rawer and more extreme. Here the form is a simple one: two types of material, one violent, aggressive, martial, one lyrical, vulnerable, potentially ecstatic, are shoved up against each other, and the work procedes as a series of ever-more-extreme cross-cuts from one to the other. The aggression grows more destructive; the lyricism grows more desperately ecstatic - but the two need each other to work, they seem more dramatic or more vulnerably beautiful only in relation to each other. The music works centrifugally, until it spins off into two passcaglie which are an unexpected yet totally logical release. This is a totally convincing form, a simple one which is instantly sensed, but also an original and new one. Each of Brian's symphonies works in this way - he juxtaposes not just motives but also musical types, and he is extremely sensitive to the implications of what he writes, which is why you won't find one symphony which is structured in a conventional way. When he approaches such forms - as in the 9th symphony, or the 3rd - it is still clear that he is doing so from first principles, not simply filling a template - in this at least, he is closer to Beethoven than to many later Romantics.

The 'clumsy orchestration' is something I've already talked about. In the first place, I don't see that a composer of something as texturally delicate and yet complex as, for instance, the second movement of the 3rd symphony could ever be accused of clumsiness; in the second place, I would just repeat that the 'clumsy' 'lumbering' sound, which is certainly present throughout Brian's music, is absolutely deliberate. One can conjecture about its 'meaning' - my own feeling is that Brian had a horror of brutality, of regimentation and of mass action, perhaps fostered by his WWI experiences, and the militaristic sounds which lurch destructively across his scores, (often triumphantly, but also emptily and ironically as in Das Siegeslied and many, many other pages) are an echo of this - but the texture is too omnipresent for it to be a miscalculation. There is also the registral and timbral fragmentation which is a hallmark of Brian's - we see it emerging in the second movement of the Gothic, and if one traces it from there, where it evidently works but sounds very peculiar, it is clear that it is a fundamental characteristic of Brian's without which his music wouldn't be Brianesque. One may not like it, but that's another matter; in itself it doesn't make him a bad composer.

I see most 'grandiloquence' in Brian as reflective of all these same trends, again. If it isn't clear that the mock-Handelian triumphant opening to #4 - indeed the whole symphony - isn't to be read with bitter irony, as a textural-type with its own complex of associations, quickly undercut and made real by the truly Brianesque violence that follows, then I don't know what is! When it occurs elsewhere - the overwhelming coda of #9, for instance - I can't help but hear it in the same way. But I don't really see grandiloquence being any more of a problem for Brian than it is for Mahler  ;)

Essentially, I feel that understanding Brian is a little like letting one's eyes make the adjustments necessary  to take in a pointilliste or impressionist painting; IOW, to look in a different way, not to work around stylistic assumptions made on the basis of musical period, or country. I'll freely admit that I had to go through this process before I really fell for him - and I'm one of those who didn't struggle upon first contact with Boulez, Xenakis et al. Brian's main problem is that his pieces are symphonies - which leads newcomers to expect things which aren't to be found, though his symphnoies are more symphonic through and through than almost anyone else's. It's clear to me that, once his basic terms and conditions are agreed to - his formal methods accepted, his orchestral sound understood - Brian is revealed as a very powerful figure. In this he is only like Mahler, or Sibelius (he's a lesser figure of course, in the end, though I'm not sure that in many ways he isn't their equal - he's certainly a born, gut-instinct musician like them, not a production-line one). It's just that his traits are at first more obscure and puzzling than theirs - his music draws its energy and onwards power, at every moment, from contrast and juxtaposition, and it makes for hard listening at first.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 17, 2007, 04:06:49 PM
Quote from: Christo on June 13, 2007, 11:09:14 AM
Great news! I didn't hear any of those three symphonies for 25 years, though I could still whistle the opening and especially the tragic finale of the Sixth from memory. The good news being the coupling: I remember to have had a special liking for Cooke Three, and look forward with anticipation to its release.

Yes, I'm in the same boat. It's fun and also a liitle weird to hear this stuff again after a quarter of a century; a bit like going into a time warp. Like you, I can remember Brian's No 6 and 16 after all this time. I also had the Cooke on LP and the Morgan Violin Concerto and those interesting symphonies by Robert Still (one based on a psychoanalytic case history as I recall). They will all be on CD in 2008.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sean on June 18, 2007, 06:59:02 AM
Hi Luke, I was impressed with your detailed thoughts on Brian, and it's great to read such advocacy: I know it's music that has much to offer, though I'm not yet quite so persuaded. It's certainly interesting though how composers or particular works acquire an aura of presupposition and established critical appraisal around them: sometimes of course it's all just wide of the mark, yet continues militating against the music's exposure. These corners of the repertory tend to involve various unusual aesthetics and compositional approaches, and often outside mainstream developments.

Grove 1980 links Brian with his friend Bantock and Strauss (whose later career likewise remains wildly misunderstood) but notes as difficulties in his music the obscure distinction between leading and subsidiary parts, with the melodic interest often in lower or somewhere unexpected and a logic where traditional antithesis and synthesis are hard to observe despite being in a predominantly tonal idiom using traditional material. Heroic themes in the earlier work though give way to motifs apt for more extended development. This is all very interesting and can certainly be felt in the Thirty-first symphony, but I would question the level of sheer intuitive insight that brings to make musical sense of these innovations. Shostakovich for example had the genius for it, but Brian remains enigmatic (rather like Bax admittedly, who I only understood after a lot of patience...)

A heaviness of orchestration is still found in the later symphonies despite their more concise and restrained schemes, and the Penguiners suggest that if he'd been able to hear more of his work in orchestral form then more of the bluntness and questionable if interesting rhythmic syntax would have been addressed. I've explored only Symphonies 1, 6, 7 & 31 (and a few short choral pieces- Blow blow thou winter wind; Come away, death & Shall I compare thee to a summer's day) but see him as somewhere between Elgar's and VW's continental structures and Bax's visionary English waywardness: like Bantock he finds a position between German sweep, dissonance and architecture, and refined English detail- both were arguably also too prolific...

I can't go along with all your enthusiasm for the First symphony- there's surely no work written that has so many diverse ideas sequentially offered yet without being developed further: I'd argue it remains a beached whale and is hard to take it all that seriously just because of its lack of unity: Mahler Eight has a similar problem but is better contained within its particular aesthetic.

He's perhaps unique in having written only five symphonies before he was 72 and his last 27 after then.

I'll have a closer look at your post next time...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on June 18, 2007, 10:22:46 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 17, 2007, 07:35:26 AM
I'm going to continue to rate him highly, whatever JQP thinks  ;D

... and many of us are grateful that you do! However high I appreciate Thomas' insights into 20th century British music - and I find his views on Vaughan Williams superior to anyone's, for example - in this respect I wholeheartedly agree with all Luke's arguments, that I read with great admiration.

Urged by this thread, I've been listening afresh to the three 'introductionary' orchestral movements (preceding the huge Te Deum, forming the other three movements) of Brian's Gothic again, after a gap of some years. Especially the third movement, Vivace, is of such tremendous symphonic power, and built up in such a unique, very 'symphonic' fashion, that I cannot really think of anything else in music equalling it. And at least a handful of other symphonies share this uniqueness, this highly personal and deeply moving musical language: e.g. the Sixth (Tragica), Eight and Tenth.

What I really don't understand is: why is Brian considered 'difficult'?? I would argue that his densely scored Violin Concerto poses more difficulties than at least a number of his symphonies. Especially the Gothic should reveal itself on first hearing, I would say. So what is so "difficult" about Brian? Honestly, I really miss that point.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 18, 2007, 11:09:53 PM
Quote from: Christo on June 18, 2007, 10:22:46 AM

What I really don't understand is: why is Brian considered 'difficult'?? I would argue that his densely scored Violin Concerto poses more difficulties than at least a number of his symphonies. Especially the Gothic should reveal itself on first hearing, I would say. So what is so "difficult" about Brian? Honestly, I really miss that point.

I agree. The Violin Concerto is, for me, a much more difficult work than, say, symphonies 8,9 and 10
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Harry on June 21, 2007, 05:00:27 AM
Well there was some worry about the continuation of the symphonies with Naxos, here it is.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on June 21, 2007, 02:02:41 PM
Quote from: Harry on June 21, 2007, 05:00:27 AM
Well there was some worry about the continuation of the symphonies with Naxos, here it is.

8) :P Exactly the one I forgot to buy when released as a Marco Polo CD - and not to be found anywhere for years. Even a former HBS (Havergal Brian Society) member (blush, I am one  0:) is sometimes forced to an embarrassing confession: I never heard Brian's Second!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 21, 2007, 02:20:57 PM
Quote from: Harry on June 21, 2007, 05:00:27 AM
Well there was some worry about the continuation of the symphonies with Naxos, here it is.

I have the Marco Polo version and I must say that Naxos have included a much more dramatic cover design than the photo of Brighton Pavillion on the original release! No 2 is not an easy work but very rewarding in its uncompromising way.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Harry on June 21, 2007, 10:54:24 PM
Quote from: Christo on June 21, 2007, 02:02:41 PM
8) :P Exactly the one I forgot to buy when released as a Marco Polo CD - and not to be found anywhere for years. Even a former HBS (Havergal Brian Society) member (blush, I am one  0:) is sometimes forced to an embarrassing confession: I never heard Brian's Second!

Well until recently I did not even know this composer, so feel relaxed about you not having heard the second symphony! ;D
All is well.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 09, 2007, 01:07:28 PM
I joined only today. But as a confirmed Brian lover (Dutch) and member of the HBS (since 1984) I must simply say that it's good to see some Brianites here. Some of them (Christo, lukeottevanger) I must have seen in the flesh, because I was in London in 1995 for the Violin Concerto and the Turandot suites, and in 1997 for the premiere of The Cenci.

I hope to give my 'take' on Brian later. But I'm glad there are some who'll fight for him. There is so much power, beauty, tenderness and imagination in his music (I know most of what has been recorded or broadcast). And we musn't forget - don't judge a composer too harshly when there is no performance tradition to speak of. The best performances of Brian give you a sense of the utter rightness of his ear. And another thing - Brian has to be experienced live. My wife was with me in 1995, and she was bowled over by the music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on July 09, 2007, 10:46:47 PM
Dear JH! Great to see you here - and to read your correct infor on the 1995 HBS concerts. Yes, we met there, even the three of us, and yes, I was wrong in referring to The Tigers: it was the Turandot music that was being performed, then, with the Violin Concerto and one of the lighter Overtures, If I'm not mistaken again.

I still own you your EMI CD with nos 8 + 9 - so, let's meet again. bw, christo
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 09, 2007, 11:35:29 PM
Quote from: Christo on July 09, 2007, 10:46:47 PM
Dear JH! Great to see you here - and to read your correct infor on the 1995 HBS concerts. Yes, we met there, even the three of us, and yes, I was wrong in referring to The Tigers: it was the Turandot music that was being performed, then, with the Violin Concerto and one of the lighter Overtures, If I'm not mistaken again.

I still own you your EMI CD with nos 8 + 9 - so, let's meet again. bw, christo

Ah, JS! Do you know, I was wondering whether I recognised something familar... Still in love with RVW, I see! I saw some of your contributions on the Gramophone forum when I became enamoured of the music of Albéric Magnard (his Third and Fourth are magnificent) and tried to find out as much as I could about him. Good to see you! Yes, by all means, let's meet again.

Another correction: it was not one of the lighter overtures that was performed, but Pantalon and Columbine, consisting of 'Valse' and 'Under the Beech Tree', two works that were later incorporated into the First English Suite.

[Sorry, girls and boys, for this semi-private conversation...]

Jez
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on July 12, 2007, 12:38:42 AM
It might interest some of us to see the 1972 Havergal Brian documentary on YouTube, with some shootage of Brian himself, Robert Simpson and many others.
And also a film of the 1972 recording sessions of the Tenth by the [among HBS members] rather famous LSSO (Leicester Schools Symphony Orchestra) under James Loughran.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsHbjY8HbcE&mode=related&search=

Were are you to be seen, dear Luke?

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 12, 2007, 01:23:36 AM
This interests me a lot, Christo!! Long live YouTube! Btw - are there any Brianites interested in the Boult Gothic? I have a lossless rip (flac) of the famous pirated recording. I would gladly upload it...

Jez

P.S. Now seen the documentary. I found it very moving, having lived so long with this man's music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on July 12, 2007, 01:21:38 PM
Quote from: Christo on July 12, 2007, 12:38:42 AM
It might interest some of us to see the 1972 Havergal Brian documentary on YouTube, with some shootage of Brian himself, Robert Simpson and many others.
And also a film of the 1972 recording sessions of the Tenth by the [among HBS members] rather famous LSSO (Leicester Schools Symphony Orchestra) under James Loughran.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsHbjY8HbcE&mode=related&search=

Were are you to be seen, dear Luke?



LOL - I was actually watching that documentary yesterday too, what a coincidence! I feel a special bond with that particular CD, of course, but I must admit I wasn't in the LSSO then, in fact I wasn't even born! I didn't join them until about 1992 and they were still an very special group even then (entrusted with premieres of Kancheli and Woolrich in my time there, for instance). But the LSSO of the 70s was quite something else, thanks to Pinkett and Tippett etc. - and yes, even having been a member, it was still astonishing to see the age of some of the members in the Brian doc.

The British music education system for once had things so right with their county orchestras and the Saturday morning pyramid system, of which the LSSO was probably the pioneering and best group, on this and other evidence. It was still going strong in Leicestershire just a decade ago, but elsewhere was already beginning a downward slide. What on earth possessed the-powers-that-be to let this happen? >:( :'(

Even years after the event there were still traces of the LSSO recording to be found in Leicester. When I first discovered Brian I found the scores to Symphonies 10 and 21 in the city's Goldsmith Music Library (which has also suffered over the years since, I think); I would hazard the guess that these were something to do with the LSSO recording, except that the library also had a score of number 8 for some reason. What other public library has such relative riches, I wonder.  ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 01, 2007, 04:33:48 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 12, 2007, 05:47:27 AM
Absolutely! MacDonald brings it alive. Prompted by this thread, actually, I reread the first chapters of the book this morning, and was bowled over again by the prose. It's simply exciting reading. I was very close to quoting exactly the passage you just did, and also the couple of paragraphs before it - it's one of those sections that is a joy just to read.

In MacDonald's writing, unsurprisingly, similar metaphors return - the score as a battleground, scene of catastrophe and tragedy, and also the celestial mechanics theme - that passage describing the central point of the Gothic's Vivace, for instance, where he talks about the veil being lifted and the engine within being revealed. He gets it spot on. The introduction, too, I was reminding, is sterling stuff, making all the right points succinctly. 

Malcolm MacDonald and I were at school together and were great friends. I vividly remember a holiday we took together as students to Rome! At school our joint interests in Roman History and the works of Tolkien brought us together but our friendship was fuelled by our passionate interest in a whole host of (then) somewhat obscure composers. Many an afternoon and evening were spent listening to LPs he had managed to obtain from American dealers and which-a few years later-I was able to tape. As schoolboys we both began to develop an interest in the music of Havergal Brian. Malcolm has-obviously-gone on to become the foremost expert on Brian's music in the country. I too have always admired the passage from Volume 1 of his books on the Brian Symphonies quoted above. Malcolm's astonishing command of the English language and his ability to so vividly describe the music he loves is nothing new. I can assure you that as a schoolboy his passsion for music and his capacity to inspire an interest in music one had not yet heard was unbelievably infectious.

Together with my own father I owe Malcolm an enormous debt for my own committment to seeking our new music and new composers to explore!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 02, 2007, 12:57:27 AM
"I can assure you that as a schoolboy his passion for music and his capacity to inspire an interest in music one had not yet heard was unbelievably infectious."

Hello, Dundonnell! You may like to know that it was Malcolm MacDonald's prose alone that 'converted' me to Brian in 1978. I borrowed the first volume of his Brian study from the library in Amsterdam (I was 17 at the time) and knew at once that I would love this music once I was able to listen to it.

That only happened a year later, when I got hold of the Groves recording of symphonies 8 & 9. Malcolm MacDonald's descriptions were absolutely correct!

Greetings from Delft, Netherlands!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2007, 01:22:57 AM
Havergal Brian died 35 years ago, on 28th November 1972, almost 97 years old.

I'll be listening to some of his symphonies in his honour.

Long may his work live!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Harry on November 28, 2007, 01:49:02 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on November 28, 2007, 01:22:57 AM
Havergal Brian died 35 years ago, on 28th November 1972, almost 97 years old.

I'll be listening to some of his symphonies in his honour.

Long may his work live!

And now for the complete recordings of his Symphonies.............. $:) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 28, 2007, 01:58:15 AM
Quote from: Harry on November 28, 2007, 01:49:02 AM
And now for the complete recordings of his Symphonies.............. $:) ;D

CPO? If that company can do a complete Pettersson and a complete Villa-Lobos cycle  and commit to a complete set of Henk Badings and Julius Rontgen then 32 Brian symphonies should not be beyond them!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Harry on November 28, 2007, 02:02:28 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 28, 2007, 01:58:15 AM
CPO? If that company can do a complete Pettersson and a complete Villa-Lobos cycle  and commit to a complete set of Henk Badings and Julius Rontgen then 32 Brian symphonies should not be beyond them!!

I will discuss this with the board...... :)
You are absolutely right!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on February 15, 2008, 05:05:17 AM
Just linking these videos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havergal_Brian#Videos) in case anyone has not seen them yet :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 05:36:50 AM
Quote from: Lethe on February 15, 2008, 05:05:17 AM
Just linking these videos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havergal_Brian#Videos) in case anyone has not seen them yet :)
Thanks, those are great ! You are going to need a better band than that to bring this music off though. Sorry.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on February 15, 2008, 05:46:25 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 05:36:50 AM
Thanks, those are great ! You are going to need a better band than that to bring this music off though. Sorry.

Indeedie - that's the sad thing about obscure classical music: when it is finally performed, it's often in less than ideal circumstances...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2008, 05:48:54 AM
Well, all things considering the LSSO do a fine job. I for one am very glad those young kids played the Tenth, because it's still the only Tenth I ever heard...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 15, 2008, 05:57:52 AM
Quote from: Lethe on February 15, 2008, 05:05:17 AM
Just linking these videos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havergal_Brian#Videos) in case anyone has not seen them yet :)

Thanks, Lethe. I hadn't seen these before.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 05:59:00 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 15, 2008, 05:48:54 AM
Well, all things considering the LSSO do a fine job. I for one am very glad those young kids played the Tenth, because it's still the only Tenth I ever heard...
I don't for one second question the committment or the enthusiasm of those kids. But this is frighteningly difficult music that even most British orchestras wouldn't touch with the proverbial ten foot pole even though the composer is one of their fellow countryman. That and trying to sort out all the mistakes in the copying of the parts must have been pretty frustrating.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 15, 2008, 06:05:17 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 05:59:00 AM
I don't for one second question the committment or the enthusiasm of those kids. But this is frighteningly difficult music that even most British orchestras wouldn't touch with the proverbial ten foot pole even though the composer is one of their fellow countryman. That and trying to sort out all the mistakes in the copying of the parts must have been pretty frustrating.

All true of course but considering the age of these musicians, I've always thought this was a remarkably good performance. Still, I'd like to hear the music performed by one of the great British orchestras....but I'm not holding my breath.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 06:11:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 15, 2008, 06:05:17 AM
All true of course but considering the age of these musicians, I've always thought this was a remarkably good performance. Still, I'd like to hear the music performed by one of the great British orchestras....but I'm not holding my breath.

Sarge
Can you imagine musicians at the LSO taking a look at this music. THey probably say: WTF??? Give me some Bruckner instead.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: greg on February 15, 2008, 06:20:38 AM
Quote from: Lethe on February 15, 2008, 05:05:17 AM
Just linking these videos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havergal_Brian#Videos) in case anyone has not seen them yet :)
wow, can't believe i've missed these videos!  :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on February 15, 2008, 06:34:02 AM
I don't think you should underestimate the musical skills of those LSSO players (many of whom went on to play in professional orchestras only a fews years later). I speak as a member of the same orchestra, but 20 years later (I've played in that hall often!) - we were all in awe of the reputation of the LSSO of the 60s-80s. The influence of Tippett, who was closely linked with the orchestra, ran very deep, and the coincidence of this and the highpoint of the British music education system (which as far as the LSSO went was still in existence when I was a member of the orchestra) helped to make an astonishingly fine orchestra. There was the time in the 1980s, for instance, when this schools orchestra was crowned both 'Best Youth Orchestra' and 'Best Amateur Orchestra' in Europe. Though the sound is raggedy in places in the Brian recording, the parts that matter - xylophone etc - are all very well in place.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 06:41:47 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on February 15, 2008, 06:34:02 AM
There was the time in the 1980s, for instance, when this schools orchestra was crowned both 'Best Youth Orchestra' and 'Best Amateur Orchestra' in Europe.
Who crowned them that? Fellow British citizens ;)
The playing is actually very good. The brass is rather weak though. You can tell the tuba and horn players are having a difficult time.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on February 15, 2008, 06:45:05 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 06:41:47 AM
Who crowned them that? Fellow British citizens ;)
The playing is actually very good. The brass is rather weak though. You can tell the tuba and horn players are having a difficult time.

You can tell the same thing on professional Brian recordings, though....

The competition was in Vienna, I think. Austria, at any rate - you cynic!  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: greg on February 15, 2008, 06:52:58 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on February 15, 2008, 06:34:02 AM
I don't think you should underestimate the musical skills of those LSSO players (many of whom went on to play in professional orchestras only a fews years later). I speak as a member of the same orchestra, but 20 years later (I've played in that hall often!) - we were all in awe of the reputation of the LSSO of the 60s-80s. The influence of Tippett, who was closely linked with the orchestra, ran very deep, and the coincidence of this and the highpoint of the British music education system (which as far as the LSSO went was still in existence when I was a member of the orchestra) helped to make an astonishingly fine orchestra. There was the time in the 1980s, for instance, when this schools orchestra was crowned both 'Best Youth Orchestra' and 'Best Amateur Orchestra' in Europe. Though the sound is raggedy in places in the Brian recording, the parts that matter - xylophone etc - are all very well in place.
seriously?!
which instrument did you play?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on February 15, 2008, 06:54:04 AM
Cello
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 06:54:26 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on February 15, 2008, 06:45:05 AM
You can tell the same thing on professional Brian recordings, though....

True. I distinctly remember in Naxos Gothic where it sounded like the entire brass and percussion section just lost their places in the score.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: greg on February 15, 2008, 06:59:03 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on February 15, 2008, 06:54:04 AM
Cello
can't believe i never knew that!


Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 06:54:26 AM
True. I distinctly remember in Naxos Gothic where it sounded like the entire brass and percussion section just lost their places in the score.

:o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on February 15, 2008, 07:01:52 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 06:54:26 AM
True. I distinctly remember in Naxos Gothic where it sounded like the entire brass and percussion section just lost their places in the score.


Well, no, they are always in the right place, I think - I haven't noticed any serious discrepancies in that respect, anyway. Certainly the music is taxing them, but in technical matters it doesn't ask as much of its players as later Brain symphonies, where they are often more exposed too, and playing more unusual figures. In those the later Brian symphonies - like this no 10 - the brass parts are often so fragmented and full of fast, angular solo lines, which really can hardly help but give an impression strain. No 8, my favourite Brian symphony, is well-served on its recording, given the dastardly brass/percussion writing in that work, but even this scarcely avoids the impression of 'boy, this is difficult!'
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on February 15, 2008, 07:06:52 AM
Actually, those final brass/percussion flurries in the Gothic - an utterly awesome moment - yes, they do struggle here, but I think much of the problem is also the recording at this point. The timps, for instance, are playing the right things as far as I can hear, but as some are more given more prominence than others, it seems that those others are playing sloppily. Ditto with the brass parts here, which are an absolute nightmare. Even so, the playing never diverges from the score more than one would expect, and it's played with conviction, not as if the players are lost. This is the only part of the recording which really pushes at this particular envelope, though, to my mind, and I find it hard to imagine how it couldn't - this is such an extraordinary section of music I can't quite see how it could be recorded faithfully!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on February 15, 2008, 07:13:17 AM
I'd also add that a sense of difficulty and strain is entirely to the point here, and elsewhere in Brian symphonies. This is often music of extreme power, pushing right at the boundaries of what orchestras can do; in the case of the final minutes of the Gothic, I think this music is about as apocalyptic as things get. A serenely slick reading, every note spick and span, would be rather out-of-place, I think, and I'd rather hear the players straining every sinew as they battle with the notes in sections like this.

I'm not making this point in relation to the LSSO recording necessarily, though it does apply at times.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 07:16:01 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on February 15, 2008, 07:06:52 AM
Actually, those final brass/percussion flurries in the Gothic - an utterly awesome moment - yes, they do struggle here, but I think much of the problem is also the recording at this point. The timps, for instance, are playing the right things as far as I can hear, but as some are more given more prominence than others, it seems that those others are playing sloppily. Ditto with the brass parts here, which are an absolute nightmare. Even so, the playing never diverges from the score more than one would expect, and it's played with conviction, not as if the players are lost. This is the only part of the recording which really pushes at this particular envelope, though, to my mind, and I find it hard to imagine how it couldn't - this is such an extraordinary section of music I can't quite see how it could be recorded faithfully!
Yeah, could be so. I think it is also shameful how horrendous the sonics were that Marco Polo afforded some of the Brian works (like the Gothic, and also #4 and 12). You get the feeling they didn't exactly put their 'A' team of recording engineers on the job.

I would really like to hear a top-tier brass section like the Staatskapelle Dresden tackle this music !
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on February 15, 2008, 07:20:25 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 07:16:01 AM
Yeah, could be so. I think it is also shameful how horrendous the sonics were that Marco Polo afforded some of the Brian works (like the Gothic, and also #4 and 12). You get the feeling they didn't exactly put their 'A' team of recording engineers on the job.

Yes, you could be right. OTOH, the Gothic and no 4 are such big works that they present very unusual challenges. Only something like Mahler 8 is comparable, but - and this is the real challenge of the Brian, I think - the contrapuntal complexity is greater in the Brian, making him much more tricky to record, I should imagine. That's not a value judgement, btw, just a statement of fact verifiable by putting the scores side-by-side - in fact, one could just say that Mahler was more pragmatic here and made all his lines easy to follow.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 07:39:52 AM
I think it also has a lot to do with familiarity also. I bet if I listen to the Gothic as many times I listen to Mahler's 9th I would hear a lot more details than I think I hear having only heard it a few times.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on February 15, 2008, 07:49:36 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on February 15, 2008, 07:39:52 AM
I think it also has a lot to do with familiarity also. I bet if I listen to the Gothic as many times I listen to Mahler's 9th I would hear a lot more details than I think I hear having only heard it a few times.

Undoubtedly true, I think.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on February 19, 2008, 04:17:15 AM
Maybe this should go under 'purchases today', but I feel it belongs here instead: a minor discovery today, whilst trawling charity shops - the Hull recording of the First English Suite/Fantastic Variations etc., and the LSSO recording of the 22rd Symph, the Fifth English Suite and Psalm 23, all on beautiful, fine condition LPs. £3 each! (There were racks and racks of great stuff, some very rare, but I could only afford some of it today, the Brian obviously part of it)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 19, 2008, 04:25:24 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on February 19, 2008, 04:17:15 AM
Maybe this should go under 'purchases today', but I feel it belongs here instead: a minor discovery today, whilst trawling charity shops - the Hull recording of the First English Suite/Fantastic Variations etc., and the LSSO recording of the 22rd Symph, the Fifth English Suite and Psalm 23, all on beautiful, fine condition LPs. £3 each! (There were racks and racks of great stuff, some very rare, but I could only afford some of it today, the Brian obviously part of it)

Incredible! I know them all. The Hull Youth Orchestra is struggling of course, more than the LSSO. Still - their climax of the Fantastic Variations is better than on the Marco Polo (organ is ad lib., but they have one, which makes it much more Brianic). 'Reverie', in the Fifth English Suite, is a beautiful piece (strings a bit off, but it's better than nothing). And Psalm 23 is done very well.

Ah, this brings back memories...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 19, 2008, 05:34:57 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on February 19, 2008, 04:17:15 AM
Maybe this should go under 'purchases today', but I feel it belongs here instead: a minor discovery today, whilst trawling charity shops - the Hull recording of the First English Suite/Fantastic Variations etc., and the LSSO recording of the 22rd Symph, the Fifth English Suite and Psalm 23, all on beautiful, fine condition LPs. £3 each! (There were racks and racks of great stuff, some very rare, but I could only afford some of it today, the Brian obviously part of it)

Great find! I've long had the LSSO LP but never did manage to locate the Hull. Congratulations!

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 19, 2008, 06:02:35 AM
Yes, I have those LPs too! Treasured possessions which I rather ignored for many years until I got my old turntable back up and running!

I also have another LP(Cameo Classics GOCLP9012) of the Hull Youth Symphony Orchestra playing "In Memoriam", "For Valour" and the Festal Dance. All of these works have, of course, now been recorded for CD. The advantage of the LPs you have managed to buy are that these are the only versions of the First and Fifth English Suites and Symphony No.22 available.

Every day now I scan the new releases pages looking for the promised Lyrita CD release of the 6th and 16th symphonies. A lot of fans are anxiously awaiting this particular CD!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: pjme on February 19, 2008, 10:38:47 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on February 19, 2008, 06:02:35 AM


Every day now I scan the new releases pages looking for the promised Lyrita CD release of the 6th and 16th symphonies. A lot of fans are anxiously awaiting this particular CD!

Wasn't this Cd promised for February????

Peter
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 19, 2008, 11:00:30 AM
Quote from: pjme on February 19, 2008, 10:38:47 AM
Wasn't this Cd promised for February????

Anything connected with Brian demands patience (and longevity).  ;)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: pjme on February 19, 2008, 11:12:26 AM
 ;D Diepe zucht.....Sigh! You're propably right.

So, ..let's see what's on the Radio tonight!

Peter
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 20, 2008, 05:49:22 AM
Quote from: pjme on February 19, 2008, 10:38:47 AM
Wasn't this Cd promised for February????

Peter

It was! However my CD supplier(MDT of Derby, UK) has just published their March New Releases "Complete List" and there are no new Lyrita on it.

As Jezetha says.."patience and longevity"! I am not sure how much of either I possess :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 21, 2008, 04:57:13 AM
Aha!!  MusicWeb International is advertising 3 new Lyrita releases for 'February 2008'-

Havergal Brian's Symphony No.6 'Sinfonia Tragica' and Arnold Cooke's Symphony No.3(SRCD 295)-I presume that the Brian 16th
     Symphony is being included on the CD although it isn't mentioned! (At 19 minutes for the Brian 6th and 24 minutes for the Cooke the
     CD would be ridiculously short measure without the 16th)

The Violin Concertos by Peter Racine Fricker and Don Banks(both from an old Argo LP) and David Morgan's Violin Concerto(SRCD 276)

Gordon Crosse's Opera "Purgatory"(SRCD 313-CD single available for a limited time only)

These new CDs can be ordered from Musicweb International. Presumably other retailers will be advertsing the new releases shortly.

Patience IS rewarded!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on February 21, 2008, 05:03:16 AM
Good news! Thanks for that. My Brian collection, less complete than those of some of you older fellas (  ;D   :P ) because limited to CDs (though I have all those that are available) until my LP finds of this week, is going to fill up nicely with the eventual arrival of this issue. I've longed to hear these works for a long time.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 21, 2008, 05:26:19 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on February 21, 2008, 05:03:16 AM
Good news! Thanks for that. My Brian collection, less complete than those of some of you older fellas (  ;D   :P ) because limited to CDs (though I have all those that are available) until my LP finds of this week, is going to fill up nicely with the eventual arrival of this issue. I've longed to hear these works for a long time.

You will not be disappointed(I hope!). The 6th and 16th are amongst Brian's finest symphonies-indeed the 16th has some claims to rank as his greatest.
As one of the "older fellas" I have been lucky enough to possess the LP of the two symphonies for 33 years. The performances of both works are superb.
Myer Fredman was/is an exceptionally fine conductor and he did these symphonies proud!

I cannot resist the temptation of quoting the last two sentences of the chapter on the 16th in Malcolm MacDonald's book on the Brian symphonies-

    "This whole coda, in fact, sums up something of what Brian stood for-a dogged, heroic confrontation of chaos and the unknown that could
       transform them into art of the highest power and complexity, could consume them into the very stuff and resources of tradition, and could
       bind them to his will by the absolute and sovereign power of the human imagination. This tremendous symphony, which seems to say most
       of the things worth saying about the world without a single wasted note, triumphantly succeeds in that aim, at every level and all along
       the line."

Some might assert that the language is florid and the sentiment over-emphatic but few would deny that it is hard to resist being, at the very least, intrigued by such an enthusiastic appraisal!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 21, 2008, 05:26:43 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on February 21, 2008, 04:57:13 AM
Aha!!  MusicWeb International is advertising 3 new Lyrita releases for 'February 2008'-

Havergal Brian's Symphony No.6 'Sinfonia Tragica' and Arnold Cooke's Symphony No.3(SRCD 295)-I presume that the Brian 16th
     Symphony is being included on the CD although it isn't mentioned! (At 19 minutes for the Brian 6th and 24 minutes for the Cooke the
     CD would be ridiculously short measure without the 16th)


Patience IS rewarded!!

'At last!' the Oldie gasped.

P.S. Just saw Dundonnell's endorsement of the Brian 6 & 16. I agree. And that coda of the Sixteenth is as terrifying as it is triumphant.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on February 21, 2008, 05:40:53 AM
I'm one who has salivated over MacDonald's descriptions of many of the symphonies, but these two stand out from particularly even from just reading about them!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 21, 2008, 05:43:42 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on February 21, 2008, 05:40:53 AM
I'm one who has salivated over MacDonald's descriptions of many of the symphonies, but these two stand out from particularly even from just reading about them!

Do you know that MM's books were once all my friends and I had, and I once read his description of the Sixteenth aloud, in lieu of listening to the real thing.... Isn't that sad?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 21, 2008, 07:35:04 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 21, 2008, 05:43:42 AM
Do you know that MM's books were once all my friends and I had, and I once read his description of the Sixteenth aloud, in lieu of listening to the real thing.... Isn't that sad?!

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do   ;)  I don't know how many times I read MacDonald's description of the Gothic before I finally heard it.

Quote from: Dundonnell on February 21, 2008, 05:26:19 AM
The 6th and 16th are amongst Brian's finest symphonies-indeed the 16th has some claims to rank as his greatest....

I thought I was alone in considering the 16th to be the greatest of his symphonies. Wonderful place, the web, where great minds come together and think alike  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: not edward on March 02, 2008, 12:59:57 PM
MDT has the 6th & 16th as an April new release: http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_April08/SRCD295.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2008, 07:24:16 AM
Quote from: edward on March 02, 2008, 12:59:57 PM
MDT has the 6th & 16th as an April new release: http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_April08/SRCD295.htm

Thanks for the info. I pre-ordered it.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 03, 2008, 07:25:46 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2008, 07:24:16 AM
Thanks for the info. I pre-ordered it.

Sarge

10 pounds? That's like 20 bucks...for ONE cd ?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2008, 07:33:29 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 03, 2008, 07:25:46 AM
10 pounds? That's like 20 bucks...for ONE cd ?

I look at it this way: the two Brian symphonies and the Cooke symphony were originally released on two LPs but they are appearing together on one CD. A bargain as far as I'm concerned. And too, 10 pounds is only 13 Euro (my currency), which is way below full price in Germany (€19.99).

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 03, 2008, 08:20:21 AM
Just finished listening to the Brian violin concerto, Symphony #18. After the first couple of minutes of the concerto which did not grab me, it keeps getting better. This is a magnificent concerto! The symphony is also very good. One thing about Brian, he is never boring. I am slowly getting a hang of it now. Will give Gothic another good attentive listening next week!

If I ever see the symphony #8 which has been touted about here, I will surely get it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 03, 2008, 08:29:48 AM
Quote from: springrite on March 03, 2008, 08:20:21 AM
Just finished listening to the Brian violin concerto, Symphony #18. After the first couple of minutes of the concerto which did not grab me, it keeps getting better. This is a magnificent concerto! The symphony is also very good. One thing about Brian, he is never boring. I am slowly getting a hang of it now. Will give Gothic another good attentive listening next week!

If I ever see the symphony #8 which has been touted about here, I will surely get it.

I am very glad you are getting into Brian! The Violin Concerto is indeed a magnificent work, with some of the loveliest melodies Brian ever devised, and the playing of Marat Bisengaliev is superb. I had the pleasure of hearing and seeing him perform this work live, in London, at St. James's Church, Piccadilly, in 1995. And that performance was even better than the recorded one! As far as the Eighteenth is concerned - in the BBC radio performance, of which I have a tape cassette (!), the slow movement is more powerful, but otherwise the Marco Polo is quite good.

I wonder whether the Eighth is still available (on a two-fer, with the Ninth, Seventh and Thirty-First, too). If not, I think I could help you out...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 03, 2008, 08:37:21 AM
Other than the Gothic and the violin concerto CD which I found during my trip to Toronto, the rest I found in second hand shops. So that was just luck. I think the 5 CDs I have are the 5 (or 6) that are somewhat easily available. The rest are harder to come by.

The funny thing is, I found out about Brian because I had a double LP of the Gothic which I never listened to because I did not and still do not have a turntable. Reading notes on that LP got me intrigued.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 03, 2008, 08:50:51 AM
Quote from: springrite on March 03, 2008, 08:37:21 AM
The funny thing is, I found out about Brian because I had a double LP of the Gothic which I never listened to because I did not and still do not have a turntable. Reading notes on that LP got me intrigued.

That double LP - is that the pirated recording of the Boult 'Gothic', on Aries?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: not edward on March 03, 2008, 09:03:12 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 03, 2008, 07:25:46 AM
10 pounds? That's like 20 bucks...for ONE cd ?
It's only that expensive because the US dollar stinks right now. ;) (Also, export orders only pay 8.51: no VAT on them.)

I'm interested in this disc too, since I've heard such good things about the 6th symphony. So far, I only have two Brian discs: the original Marco Polo release with the violin concerto & 18th symphony (like it) and the Hyperion 3rd symphony (don't like it).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: johnQpublic on March 03, 2008, 09:39:42 AM
Quote from: edward on March 03, 2008, 09:03:12 AM
So far, I only have two Brian discs: the original Marco Polo release with the violin concerto & 18th symphony (like it) and the Hyperion 3rd symphony (don't like it).

You're not alone regarding the 3rd.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 03, 2008, 10:02:13 AM
Quote from: johnQpublic on March 03, 2008, 09:39:42 AM
You're not alone regarding the 3rd.

I know the first performance of the Third (under Stanley Pope, if I'm not mistaken). And that's superior to the Hyperion. The Hyperion was recorded at the Maida Vale studios, and the acoustics are simply nor right for this work - a big orchestra must have room to breathe. I was present at a studio performance that preceded the final recording, and I noticed those cramped acoustics.

So - don't be hasty writing a work off. Most of Brian's symphonies have been performed and/or recorded only a few times. And it's sheer good luck when the only performances you have are excellent (like the Lyrita Sixth and Sixteenth).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on March 05, 2008, 05:17:58 AM
HB no 5 is on Radio Three sometime in the next hour or two!   ;D  ;D  ;D I'm going to try to record it, but I don't fancy my chances, so if anyone else wanted to have a go, I'm sure they would be eternally loved....

(Apparently they've been playing a lot of HB this week, but I've missed all of it, apart from a part-song they played a few minutes ago  >:( >:( >:( >:( )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 05, 2008, 05:21:26 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on March 05, 2008, 05:17:58 AM
HB no 5 is on Radio Three sometime in the next hour or two!   ;D  ;D  ;D I'm going to try to record it, but I don't fancy my chances, so if anyone else wanted to have a go, I'm sure they would be eternally loved....

(Apparently they've been playing a lot of HB this week, but I've missed all of it, apart from a part-song they played a few minutes ago  >:( >:( >:( >:( )

Thanks for warning us! I'll see what I can do, but I have to leave the house in an hour's time...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on March 05, 2008, 05:25:54 AM
I've been looking.....you can also listen again to the yesterdays broadcast, which includes symph 30; I suppose today's broadcast OF 5 will be available soon too. Tomorrow has no 18 and Friday has no 3. But it's 5 that interests me!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 05, 2008, 05:31:16 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on March 05, 2008, 05:25:54 AM
I've been looking.....you can also listen again to the yesterdays broadcast, which includes symph 30; I suppose today's broadcast OF 5 will be available soon too. Tomorrow has no 18 and Friday has no 3. But it's 5 that interests me!

The 30th is really terrific! I only have that on cassette. And this Fifth is a performance I don't know!

I think I am going to see about that 30th. Bruch has just started.

Addition: I use the Opera browser, and getting to the part of a program you want to hear is a bit difficult, so I'll have to switch to IE. I have a free software programme 'Audacity', that lets you record streams. So I must be able to keep those Brian works...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on March 05, 2008, 06:01:26 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on March 05, 2008, 05:31:16 AM
The 30th is really terrific! I only have that on cassette. And this Fifth is a performance I don't know!

I think I am going to see about that 30th. Bruch has just started.

Addition: I use the Opera browser, and getting to the part of a program you want to hear is a bit difficult, so I'll have to switch to IE. I have a free software programme 'Audacity', that lets you record streams. So I must be able to keep those Brian works...

I've just finished listening to 30 (and recording it too, though I suspect I could have got more quality using a different method). I too had [have] 30 on cassette, recorded off R3 at some point in the 90s, which is why I was particularly keen to hear 5, which I have only ever read about (with mouth watering!) in MacDonald. But it's still good to have 30 recorded digitally now.

What with this no 5, the forthcoming 6 and 16, and my recent LP finds, I'm having a high old Havergal time at the moment!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 05, 2008, 07:11:48 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on March 05, 2008, 05:17:58 AM
HB no 5 is on Radio Three sometime in the next hour or two!

Thanks for the heads up, Luke. I'm tuned in. The Mozart is currently playing. HB5 next  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 05, 2008, 07:14:30 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 05, 2008, 07:11:48 AM
Thanks for the heads up, Luke. I'm tuned in. The Mozart is currently playing. HB5 next  8)

Sarge

Listening, too! Slow movement winding down now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on March 05, 2008, 08:09:00 AM
 :) :) So, if you want to use the 'listen again' feature after the broadcast has finished (I will be, to record the thing!), don't forget to listen to a point a little earlier too - I suppose it would have been at about 1:50-ish UK time - to the broadcast of the HB partsong. Tiny, but exquisite.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 06, 2008, 11:23:34 PM
Lyrita are finally showing the forthcoming Brian release on their website:

http://www.lyrita.co.uk/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 06, 2008, 11:28:22 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 06, 2008, 11:23:34 PM
Lyrita are finally showing the forthcoming Brian release on their website:

http://www.lyrita.co.uk/

Well well. It's 2008. Finally these classic recordings are available again!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 07, 2008, 12:39:30 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 06, 2008, 11:23:34 PM
Lyrita are finally showing the forthcoming Brian release on their website:

http://www.lyrita.co.uk/

I normally use MDT but Europadisc advertised the new Lyrita first so I ordered from them. The discs are in the post!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: pjme on March 07, 2008, 01:03:44 AM
 :D :D :D Good news! I will buy that CD.

I have an old (open reel )tape of nr 5 "Wine of summer" ( Brian Rayner Cook as baritone soloist). It is an impressive,strong symphony - but since I have no longer a tape recorder....I' haven't listened to it in years.
I couldn't find the poem ( indeed, by Oscar Wilde's "Bosie") , but it is described by some as "awful"....
This is from http://www.havergalbrian.org/brianforeman.htm

Brian's hand, in pencil]

I Symphony 'Wine of Summer'.
The poem 'Wine of Summer' by Alfred Douglas must have been written in Sussex, for years ago he lived with his mother the Marchioness of Queensbury at a house not far from Lewes. The poem is of a subjective Nocturnal type quality distinction such as is met with in much of Shelley's poetry - particularly the Indian Song 'I arise from dreams of thee'. The word 'Wine' only occurs once in 'Wine of Summer' and has no relation to the Common Noun of that name.
The Symphony was composed at Upper Norwood: the first sketches were finished on Sunday April 18 1937.

II The Symphony is Scored for a large modern orchestra and Baritone soloist.
It opens with a short quiet passage for the orchestra leading to the theme announced by the Soloist with orchestra to the opening words of the poem: "The Sun holds all the earth / and all the Sky" On this theme the Symphony continues the music varied by changes of rhythm and tonality, but interrupted by several dramatic episodes by the orchestra. The climax of the Symphony is contained in the closing bars where the Soloist sings: 'I must hence. / Far off I hear night / Calling to the Sea' accompanied by the full power of the orchestra in which is heard broken fragments of the opening theme of the Symphony.

11 Atlantic Court, Shoreham by Sea, Sussex, 14' Nov. 1969
Dear Lewis Foreman, I would be glad if in my writing about the Symphony requested by you an alteration might be made by you.
I wrote____passages apart from several interruptions from the orchestra alone or something like that
I wish to alter it to:—
apart from several important passages for orchestra alone which emphasise the argument of the poem
I am puzzled how the close of the Cadenza for Solo Violin got onto the Clarinet stave.
Please make sure[?sense] of my errors and correct.
If it is no trouble I should like to see a proof of the writing about the poem & Symphony.
In my reference to Shelleys famous poem 'I arise from dreams of thee' It is labelled by Shelley Indian Serenade please see I've written correctly. I enclose a copy of the Douglas letter you need.
Sincerely, Havergal Brian



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 07, 2008, 01:09:20 AM
I have that same performance of 'Wine of Summer', Peter, on cassette. It's a strong work, as you say. I don't know why the BBC chose another, less impressive, performance the other day.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 07, 2008, 02:28:21 AM
In a letter to me-dated 30 December 1999-Malcolm MacDonald wrote that Symphony No.5 was recorded by Marco Polo along with Symphony No.11. However, Brian Rayner Cook, the soloist, was unhappy with the performance-as were several other people who heard the tapes. As a new set of sessions couldn't be scheduled, explorations went on to see if another soloist could be dubbed. These turned out to be fruitless and the recording was eventually junked(to Marco Polo's displeasure!).

Malcolm went on to write that Marco Polo was planning one new disc per year and that the next volume would be recorded in the spring(2000). It would have contained Symphonies Nos. 22, 23 and 24 coupled with English Suite No.3. I presume that this recording never took place since no such CD was ever issued.

All very sad!! Presumably those in the Brian Society have more up to date news.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 07, 2008, 02:36:20 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 07, 2008, 02:28:21 AM
In a letter to me-dated 30 December 1999-Malcolm MacDonald wrote that Symphony No.5 was recorded by Marco Polo along with Symphony No.11. However, Brian Rayner Cook, the soloist, was unhappy with the performance-as were several other people who heard the tapes. As a new set of sessions couldn't be scheduled, explorations went on to see if another soloist could be dubbed. These turned out to be fruitless and the recording was eventually junked(to Marco Polo's displeasure!).

Malcolm went on to write that Marco Polo was planning one new disc per year and that the next volume would be recorded in the spring(2000). It would have contained Symphonies Nos. 22, 23 and 24 coupled with English Suite No.3. I presume that this recording never took place since no such CD was ever issued.

All very sad!! Presumably those in the Brian Society have more up to date news.

What you write is correct. I know Brian Rayner Cook was dissatisfied (I heard it from Alan Marshall, the Secretary of the HBS, in 1995, or thereabouts), and that that was the reason the recording was never released. Regarding the Brian series, it has effectively been discontinued, another victim of the classical music crisis.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 07, 2008, 03:03:11 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on March 07, 2008, 02:36:20 AM
What you write is correct. I know Brian Rayner Cook was dissatisfied (I heard it from Alan Marshall, the Secretary of the HBS, in 1995, or thereabouts), and that that was the reason the recording was never released. Regarding the Brian series, it has effectively been discontinued, another victim of the classical music crisis.

"The classical music crisis" which we hear about so often and which undoubtedly has led to the vast reduction in recordings made by the major record companies does not seem to inhibit the smaller companies from recording and releasing rare repertoire which must have a limited market. Naxos itself releases a very substantial number of CDs each month. Companies like CPO in Germany have a recording schedule which includes series of compositions which must have a limited appeal to the general public. Naxos are recording the symphonies of the Portugese composer Luis Freitas Branco, CPO appears to have committed itself to the complete symphonies of Julius Rontgen(over 20 of them!) and Henk Badings and has almost completed its set of the complete Weingartner symphonies. This is not exactly core repertoire!

I don't resent this-FAR from it!! I just simply don't understand the argument that music like this will sell but Brian won't!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 07, 2008, 03:12:51 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 07, 2008, 03:03:11 AM
I just simply don't understand the argument that music like this will sell but Brian won't!

Perhaps. But I remember MM writing somewhere that Brian's music was expensive to produce - it's demanding, often involves large orchestras, it's written in an idiom that conductors and players have to assimilate, for which there isn't the time, apart from the fact that there still aren't that many buyers out there in the first place (though more exposure and better performances could create an audience)... So the 'Brian problem' remains. I don't think another label will start another Brian series in the near future, nor will anyone pick it up where Marco Polo left off, more's the pity.

I hope I am overly pessimistic...  :-\

Johan
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 07, 2008, 03:27:23 AM
I accept that Brian's music is difficult for orchestras and conductors to assimilate and perform but two BBC orchestras have performed Symphonies Nos. 5 and 30 in broadcasts this week. Would it not have been possible for there to have been a recording link-up as has happened in the past with other works? CPO obviously use radio broadcasts of performances in this way.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 07, 2008, 03:46:25 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 07, 2008, 03:27:23 AM
I accept that Brian's music is difficult for orchestras and conductors to assimilate and perform but two BBC orchestras have performed Symphonies Nos. 5 and 30 in broadcasts this week. Would it not have been possible for there to have been a recording link-up as has happened in the past with other works? CPO obviously use radio broadcasts of performances in this way.

The 30th was performed quite well - only a few glitches here and there. But that Fifth as the only available recording? I found the soloist very flat and uninspired; he sounded as if he had the age that befits the poem without the vocal abilities to make that into a moving fact; as the baritone is the centre of attention in 'Wine of Summer', I don't think I'd listen to that performance very often...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 07, 2008, 03:53:25 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on March 03, 2008, 08:50:51 AM
That double LP - is that the pirated recording of the Boult 'Gothic', on Aries?

It is in storage right now, and I can't remember if it is the Aries.

No, the 2fer is not available. It is only available from private sellers for a price.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 07, 2008, 05:03:30 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on March 07, 2008, 03:46:25 AM
The 30th was performed quite well - only a few glitches here and there. But that Fifth as the only available recording? I found the soloist very flat and uninspired; he sounded as if he had the age that befits the poem without the vocal abilities to make that into a moving fact; as the baritone is the centre of attention in 'Wine of Summer', I don't think I'd listen to that performance very often...

Perhaps he is less than an ideal soloist but I'd still buy the recording. Better that than nothing! You know, the BBC includes a CD with their magazine so pressing a CD couldn't be that expensive. And since it would be the only recording available, it would sell.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 07, 2008, 05:10:08 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 07, 2008, 05:03:30 AM
Perhaps he is less than an ideal soloist but I'd still buy the recording. Better that than nothing! You know, the BBC includes a CD with their magazine so pressing a CD couldn't be that expensive. And since it would be the only recording available, it would sell.

Sarge

I have the (superior) 1976 performance on cassette. That's my problem (or luxury...), Sarge.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 07, 2008, 05:23:14 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on March 07, 2008, 05:10:08 AM
I have the (superior) 1976 performance on cassette. That's my problem (or luxury...), Sarge.

I have absolutely no problem with BBC giving us that one instead.  :)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 07, 2008, 06:31:54 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 07, 2008, 05:03:30 AM
Perhaps he is less than an ideal soloist but I'd still buy the recording. Better that than nothing! You know, the BBC includes a CD with their magazine so pressing a CD couldn't be that expensive. And since it would be the only recording available, it would sell.

Sarge

What an EXCELLENT idea!! Not that the BBC would do it of course :(

I too have the Brian broadcasts from the 70s on tape but-as pjme-the tapes are reel-to-reel and my old tape player is bust :( :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 08, 2008, 12:04:19 PM
I'd like to draw attention to Brian's Third, yesterday, on BBC Radio Three. I listened to it and it's not the same performance as on the Hyperion CD. This is another one recorded at the Maida Vale studios (in 1988), before a live audience, which included me. I think this performance is better than on the CD, so I urge every Brianite to Listen Again (and record it, if they can). I will... The symphony starts around 4:00:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/afternoonon3/pip/czlw2/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 09, 2008, 02:26:19 PM
Just received the HBS Newsletter (by email). One nice item concerns a bus named after Brian (!). The Editor comments humorously:

Who was it who said that Brian was 'long on parentheses and short on transitions'? Anyway, I've always been convinced of the truth of this remark which does not bode well for passengers on the bus who, presumably, will be treated to extensive diversions down country lanes, suddenly finding themselves at their destination without understanding how they got there.

Look for Brian on the list:

http://history.buses.co.uk/history/fleethist/672hb.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on March 09, 2008, 02:34:38 PM
I like the bio, skirting the borders of accuracy as it does!  ;D Should we be surprised that the bus pictured is 'out of service', Marco Polo style?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 09, 2008, 02:39:19 PM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on March 09, 2008, 02:34:38 PM
I like the bio, skirting the borders of accuracy as it does!  ;D Should we be surprised that the bus pictured is 'out of service', Marco Polo style?

Well it actually reads 'Not in service', which captures Brian's proud, unbending character quite well, I think...  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on March 09, 2008, 02:51:42 PM
So it does - that puts a rather more positive spin on it. ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on March 09, 2008, 02:57:01 PM
BTW, does anyone know if there were any hidden Brianic gems on the recent R3 broadcasts other than the symphonies? I know there was a partsong broadcast on the same day as the 5th - happily, I managed to record it - but of course being a small piece it wasn't listed on the website, so I'm worried there might be other such splinters from the workbench up for grabs. But I don't really have time to listen to all 8 hours to find out.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 09, 2008, 03:02:05 PM
As I indicated earlier, I did listen to the Third. The presenter didn't say that any other Brian work was on offer, so I don't think you are missing out on any 'Brianic gems', Luke.

Btw - at the forthcoming AGM of the HBS, Malcolm MacDonald will be presenting volume two (at last) of 'Havergal Brian on music'. A pity I can't be there.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on March 10, 2008, 07:01:31 AM
I'm another longtime Brian fan and it's good to see so much interest in him. I caught two little hidden gems on last weeks broadcast. The first was "Shall I compare thee to a summers day" which I once had on a reel to reel tape and have not heard for years. The second was "Sweet Solitude". I believe there was a third but I missed it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on March 10, 2008, 08:27:19 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on March 10, 2008, 07:01:31 AM
I'm another longtime Brian fan and it's good to see so much interest in him. I caught two little hidden gems on last weeks broadcast. The first was "Shall I compare thee to a summers day" which I once had on a reel to reel tape and have not heard for years. The second was "Sweet Solitude". I believe there was a third but I missed it.

Do you happen to remember which day([s) these two were broadcast? I missed them, but I managed to record another (O happiness celestial fair), which I assume is the third one you are referring to. Recording quality isn't all it could be, though, and I'd urge anyone who can do a better job to catch last week's broadcasts whilst they are still available.

Thanks
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on March 10, 2008, 10:03:20 AM
Brian "sweet solitude"  04/03/08 just before 17:00 hrs
Brian "shall I compare thee to a summer's day" 03/03/08 also just before 17:00 hrs
If you have trouble with the sound quality get back to me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on March 10, 2008, 11:12:04 AM
Thank you! The earlier one is no longer available  >:( >:( (if anyone has it..... :-* :-* ) but I'm scanning through for the other one right now
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on March 10, 2008, 11:27:43 AM
Okay,  I'll get back to you.
Steve
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 13, 2008, 10:25:24 AM
Great Day indeed!! 1975 was the year in which Lyrita issued Symphonies Nos. 6 and 16 on vinyl: one of my most treasured albums over the last 33 years.

And now today I am at last able to listen to these two stupendous symphonies on CD, to marvel at the genius of this great composer and to be so grateful that Myer Fredman could inspire the London Philharmonic Orchestra of its day to such truly splendid performances!

If you have this CD on order then you are in for a treat! (The Arnold Cooke Symphony No.3 is a good work too-Hindemithian, busy, well-constructed but sadly, from its point of view, does rather suffer by comparison. Maybe Lyrita should have put it first on the CD? Best perhaps not to listen to the Cooke immediately after the Brian?)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 13, 2008, 10:31:33 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 13, 2008, 10:25:24 AM
Great Day indeed!! 1975 was the year in which Lyrita issued Symphonies Nos. 6 and 16 on vinyl: one of my most treasured albums over the last 33 years.

And now today I am at last able to listen to these two stupendous symphonies on CD, to marvel at the genius of this great composer and to be so grateful that Myer Fredman could inspire the London Philharmonic Orchestra of its day to such truly splendid performances!

If you have this CD on order then you are in for a treat! (The Arnold Cooke Symphony No.3 is a good work too-Hindemithian, busy, well-constructed but sadly, from its point of view, does rather suffer by comparison. Maybe Lyrita should have put it first on the CD? Best perhaps not to listen to the Cooke immediately after the Brian?)

Ah... I know what you express so eloquently.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on March 13, 2008, 10:52:45 AM
I've spent the last few days re-immersing myself in HB (and in the three MacDonald volumes). My primary emotion - I'm am staggered all over again by this music and its creator. He was, in a genuine sense, a Hero (capital H), wasn't he? Sustained dignity, passion, humour, imagination, courage, conviction, energy, humility.

[to HB skeptics - I apologise for the gushiness here! HB admirer will know what I mean, I hope]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 13, 2008, 10:54:19 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 13, 2008, 10:25:24 AM
If you have this CD on order then you are in for a treat!

I do have it ordered and I'm a bit annoyed I've not received a message saying it's on its way to me.

Sarge

Edit: They must've heard me grumbling  ;D  I just checked my email and there was a message from MDT: HB is in the mail  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 13, 2008, 10:55:09 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on March 13, 2008, 10:52:45 AM
I've spent the last few days re-immersing myself in HB (and in the three MacDonald volumes). My primary emotion - I'm am staggered all over again by this music and its creator. He was, in a genuine sense, a Hero (capital H), wasn't he? Sustained dignity, passion, humour, imagination, courage, conviction, energy, humility.

[to HB skeptics - I apologise for the gushiness here! HB admirer will know what I mean, I hope]

Preach on, brother Luke!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on March 13, 2008, 11:01:12 AM
QuotePreach on, brother Luke!

0:) I take my reading from MacDonald III, chapter 33  0:)

Quotewhat impresses one most strongly in his symphonies is the raw, unquenchable will to survive, to fight, to go on making music at all costs against external and internal disasters - and still to have his private jokes against the slow wits under the wise wigs. He is the 'Awkward Cuss' who will do no man's bidding but his own, cunning enough to survive into the mellowed old age of a 'Geriatric Prodigy': the Working Man as Great Composer, crafty through and through
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: BachQ on March 13, 2008, 11:52:03 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on March 13, 2008, 10:52:45 AM
I've spent the last few days re-immersing myself in HB (and in the three MacDonald volumes). My primary emotion - I'm am staggered all over again by this music and its creator. He was, in a genuine sense, a Hero (capital H), wasn't he? Sustained dignity, passion, humour, imagination, courage, conviction, energy, humility.

[to HB skeptics - I apologise for the gushiness here! HB admirer will know what I mean, I hope]



We haven't witnessed a gush-a-thon of this magnitude since 71dB's defunct Elgar thread ........  :D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on March 13, 2008, 11:55:31 AM
Quote from: Dm on March 13, 2008, 11:52:03 AM
We haven't witnessed a gush-a-thon of this magnitude since 71dB's defunct Elgar thread ........  :D



Well, exactly, I thought it about time  ;D  Mendelssohn (just for example  0:) ) isn't really a glamorous enough figure to gush about, it seems to me, but Brian? Now there's a real composer!  >:D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 13, 2008, 01:00:16 PM
Havergal Brian has been the composer who sustained me during the most difficult years of my life. Long may his music live.

A review by Rob Barnett:

http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2008/Mar08/Brian_Cooke_SRCD295.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 13, 2008, 02:28:10 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on March 13, 2008, 01:00:16 PM
Havergal Brian has been the composer who sustained me during the most difficult years of my life. Long may his music live.

A review by Rob Barnett:

http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2008/Mar08/Brian_Cooke_SRCD295.htm

Rob Barnett makes the point that there are no connections between Brian and Cooke. While I understand what he means, Brian was actually an admirer of Arnold Cooke's music. In 1936 Brian hailed the 30 year old Cooke as one of the most promising young British composers and praised his ability "to think and breathe contrapuntally"(Musical Opinion). It is therefore quite a nice juxtaposition of the two composers on the new CD.

Cooke is certainly a most worthy and craftsmanlike composer whose music merits rediscovery. He is not, however, a composer of the same stature as HB.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 13, 2008, 11:53:26 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 13, 2008, 02:28:10 PM
Rob Barnett makes the point that there are no connections between Brian and Cooke. While I understand what he means, Brian was actually an admirer of Arnold Cooke's music. In 1936 Brian hailed the 30 year old Cooke as one of the most promising young British composers and praised his ability "to think and breathe contrapuntally"(Musical Opinion). It is therefore quite a nice juxtaposition of the two composers on the new CD.

Cooke is certainly a most worthy and craftsmanlike composer whose music merits rediscovery. He is not, however, a composer of the same stature as HB.

Very interesting. Why don't you let Rob Barnett know this? He'll probably add it on to his Music Web review.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: not edward on March 14, 2008, 02:49:10 PM
Well, here goes for my first experience of the Gothic. If I don't get interrupted, I'll be back for comments in a couple of hours. ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 14, 2008, 02:51:51 PM
Quote from: edward on March 14, 2008, 02:49:10 PM
Well, here goes for my first experience of the Gothic. If I don't get interrupted, I'll be back for comments in a couple of hours. ;)

Travel safely!  $:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 14, 2008, 09:18:43 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 13, 2008, 11:53:26 PM
Very interesting. Why don't you let Rob Barnett know this? He'll probably add it on to his Music Web review.

Have done and he will!

Thanks, for that Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 15, 2008, 09:37:38 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 14, 2008, 09:18:43 PM
Have done and he will!

Thanks, for that Jeffrey.

It's there already!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 15, 2008, 09:41:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 15, 2008, 09:37:38 AM
It's there already!

I saw it, too! Am now reading a very enthusiastic review of Brian's Violin Concerto (and listening to it at the same time)...

http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2005/July05/Brian_Violin_concerto_8557775.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 05, 2008, 03:06:29 AM
Have been listening again to the new Lyrita CD of Symphony 6 and 16: one of the best of the new Lyritas I think (along with Rootham Symphony, Cyril Scott Piano Concerto 1, Moeran Symphony with Boult, Bax No 5 Leppard, Hadley's 'Trees So High', Handley).

Any other admirers of these (Rootham for example?)

My favourite moment in Brian's 16th Symphony is the funereal march which begins approx 8 and a half minutes into the work. A great and entirely characteristic moment...wonderful.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 05, 2008, 03:31:05 AM
Moeran - terrific.

Bax 5 - excellent.

Hadley - I have 'The Trees So High' still on an LP I bought in London in the 'eighties. Christopher Palmer mentioned Hadley (and another composer, Orr) in his Delius book Frederick Delius, Portrait of a Cosmopolitan, so that was recommendation enough. I think I'll download it from eMusic when my subscription is renewed in a few days' time and see what I make of it now.

Rootham - is on my wishlist.

Brian - I couldn't possibly comment.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 05, 2008, 03:32:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 05, 2008, 03:06:29 AM
My favourite moment in Brian's 16th Symphony is the funereal march which begins approx 8 and a half minutes into the work. A great and entirely characteristic moment...wonderful.

Yes, it is. An autumnal procession, very poignant.

I must add - my favourite part of the symphony is the coda. For sheer power I don't know many things that surpass it. Its sense of triumph is overwhelming.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 05, 2008, 04:29:18 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 05, 2008, 03:32:32 AM
Yes, it is. An autumnal procession, very poignant.

I must add - my favourite part of the symphony is the coda. For sheer power I don't know many things that surpass it. Its sense of triumph is overwhelming.

I also listened to the Arnold Cooke Third Symphony. The end of the slow movement is especially moving. I'd forgotten what a good work that is. I forgot to mention Arthur Benjamin's fine symphony; another great Lyrita discovery.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 05, 2008, 04:40:03 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 05, 2008, 04:29:18 AM
I also listened to the Arnold Cooke Third Symphony. The end of the slow movement is especially moving. I'd forgotten what a good work that is. I forgot to mention Arthur Benjamin's fine symphony; another great Lyrita discovery.

Arnold Cooke is a composer who deserves much greater exposure(a la Alwyn or Arnell-not that his music sounds like theirs). I can't help feeling that he was a more natural symphonist-and a more interesting one-than Lennox Berkeley, for example. Chandos did give us a strange truncated Berkeley cycle, coupled with music by his son, Michael, which must have seemed a good idea on paper but did not work terribly well in practice, in my opinion. Far better to have coupled Lennox's symphonies with other examples of his own music. As you know, HB admired Cooke's music and thought him one of the most promising of the British symphonic composers. HB had good taste. We should be given the chance to evaluate the rest of Cooke's orchestral works.

I agree about Arthur Benjamin's Symphony No.1(there wasn't a second). I know it through both the Lyrita version and Christopher Lynden-Gee on Marco Polo.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 05, 2008, 10:46:27 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 05, 2008, 04:40:03 AM
Arnold Cooke is a composer who deserves much greater exposure(a la Alwyn or Arnell-not that his music sounds like theirs). I can't help feeling that he was a more natural symphonist-and a more interesting one-than Lennox Berkeley, for example. Chandos did give us a strange truncated Berkeley cycle, coupled with music by his son, Michael, which must have seemed a good idea on paper but did not work terribly well in practice, in my opinion. Far better to have coupled Lennox's symphonies with other examples of his own music. As you know, HB admired Cooke's music and thought him one of the most promising of the British symphonic composers. HB had good taste. We should be given the chance to evaluate the rest of Cooke's orchestral works.

I agree about Arthur Benjamin's Symphony No.1(there wasn't a second). I know it through both the Lyrita version and Christopher Lynden-Gee on Marco Polo.

Yes, the Chandos Berkeley pere/fils series was a misfire (rather like Colin Matthews adding a completely inappropriate "Pluto" to Holst's The Planets just before Pluto was downgraded as a planet anyway.)  I wish that Lyrita had coupled Berkeley's (Lennox that is) 1st Symphony and Concerto for Two Pianos on CD (as they had done on LP) as these are easily (in my view) his best works (+Serenade for Strings). I feel that I have wasted quite a lot of money on collecting Michael Berkeley's works which I did not enjoy at all. I may yet, however, get "Or Shall We Die" on EMI, which despite a kitsch ending where the whole thing lapses into bathos, has moments of interest. The Benjamin Symphony is great.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 05, 2008, 11:09:29 AM
Six CDs devoted exclusively to Lennox Berkeley would have given Chandos the opportunity to record and for us to hear works like his
Cello Concerto
Dialogues for Cello and Chamber orchestra(both of which I hve heard courtesy of Guido on this forum)
Flute Concerto
Concerto for Piano and Double String Orchestra
Suite "A Winter's Tale"
not to mention choral/vocal works like the Ronsard Sonnets or the Oratorio "Jonah".

Dear, dear...always greedy for more :)

There was one Michael Berkeley piece I quite liked. I think that it might have been the Gregorian Variations but I am not sure now.


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 05, 2008, 10:43:34 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 05, 2008, 11:09:29 AM
Six CDs devoted exclusively to Lennox Berkeley would have given Chandos the opportunity to record and for us to hear works like his
Cello Concerto
Dialogues for Cello and Chamber orchestra(both of which I hve heard courtesy of Guido on this forum)
Flute Concerto
Concerto for Piano and Double String Orchestra
Suite "A Winter's Tale"
not to mention choral/vocal works like the Ronsard Sonnets or the Oratorio "Jonah".

Dear, dear...always greedy for more :)

There was one Michael Berkeley piece I quite liked. I think that it might have been the Gregorian Variations but I am not sure now.




Many years ago there was a festival of British music at the Festival Hall in London. I went up to Lennox Berkeley after a concert which featured some of his music to get his autograph. He couldn't have been more pleasant; chatting to me whilst signing the programme.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 19, 2008, 05:47:44 PM
What downloads are out there ? I want to make sure I'm not missing anything... 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on July 19, 2008, 09:29:18 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 19, 2008, 05:47:44 PM
What downloads are out there ? I want to make sure I'm not missing anything... 

Jezetha's epic Mediafire account index is here (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=191b3b8d4da3c14f8c9e7c56ba37815ff04eac5398a24e6c).

Edit: I am getting Vietnam-style flashbacks of how long it took to rename/retag all these...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2008, 12:37:30 AM
Quote from: Lethe on July 19, 2008, 09:29:18 PM
Jezetha's epic Mediafire account index is here (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=191b3b8d4da3c14f8c9e7c56ba37815ff04eac5398a24e6c).

Edit: I am getting Vietnam-style flashbacks of how long it took to rename/retag all these...

Suffering for art isn't an uncommon experience...  :'(

Sorry I put all necessary information under the heading File Info in the Mediafire map and not in the files themselves... Argh! Now I am getting 'Vietnam-style flashbacks' myself, thinking of all those descriptions I had to enter...  ;)

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 19, 2008, 05:47:44 PM
What downloads are out there ? I want to make sure I'm not missing anything... 

André, I suggest you download Elegy and symphonies 8, 9, 12, 19, 24, 27, 28 and 30. If you can cope with those, you are ready for anything... Take your time, but do try HB. The Gothic isn't all there is to Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Renfield on July 20, 2008, 05:09:56 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 20, 2008, 12:37:30 AM
The Gothic isn't all there is to Brian.

"But sir, I liked the Gothic!" :-[ ;)

Incidentally, your joint flashbacks led to a "Vietnam-style" one of my own, over the ripping of the EMI (orchestral) complete Karajan box set. I haven't even attempted the opera & vocal one, for that exact reason. :P (Although I've ripped around 520GB of music already, I suppose...)


And let me end this post on an on-topic note in saying that I really was delighted by the Gothic, and even gave its first movement a spontaneous second listen this morning; I'm listening to the third movement as I'm typing this.

Edit: Which one would you suggest I go for next, wise Brianic lore-keeper Johan? 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2008, 05:50:15 AM
Quote from: Renfield on July 20, 2008, 05:09:56 AM
"But sir, I liked the Gothic!" :-[ ;)

Lilas Pastia didn't much care for the Te Deum, Renfield, but he likes the First (purely orchestral) Part. I just wanted to make it clear that Brian isn't only mammoth orchestras and half the population of Bratislava singing...  ;)


QuoteAnd let me end this post on an on-topic note in saying that I really was delighted by the Gothic, and even gave its first movement a spontaneous second listen this morning; I'm listening to the third movement as I'm typing this.

Edit: Which one would you suggest I go for next, wise Brianic lore-keeper Johan? 8)

Well, for some short, sharp shocks - try Elegy and 12 and 17. For a longer, powerful one-movement edifice, listen to 8 (and well-recorded, too!)

See what you make of those...


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Renfield on July 20, 2008, 06:00:05 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 20, 2008, 05:50:15 AM
I just wanted to make it clear that Brian isn't only mammoth orchestras and half the population of Bratislava singing...  ;)

Ha. Point conceded.

I think I'll investigate the 8th.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 20, 2008, 06:05:12 AM
Merci, Messieurs !

I already have 8, 9, 10 and 21 (the EMI and Unicorn discs) and 17 (the recent dowlnoad, which I haven't heard yet). I wasn't sure what else could be obtained. I'll embark on a Havergalothon in the coming weeks. :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2008, 06:11:11 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 20, 2008, 06:05:12 AM
Merci, Messieurs !

I already have 8, 9, 10 and 21 (the EMI and Unicorn discs) and 17 (the recent dowlnoad, which I haven't heard yet). I wasn't sure what else could be obtained. I'll embark on a Havergalothon in the coming weeks. :D

Havergalothon - that's an Olympic sport I have excelled at since I was 17.

Meet you in Beijing!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 20, 2008, 06:17:53 AM
Caramba ! Just had a look at Johan's files  :o

I'll make this a long term project and follow his advice: I suggest you download Elegy and symphonies 8, 9, 12, 19, 24, 27, 28 and 30.

So much Brian, so little time...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2008, 06:23:48 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on July 20, 2008, 06:17:53 AM
Caramba ! Just had a look at Johan's files  :o

I'll make this a long term project and follow his advice: I suggest you download Elegy and symphonies 8, 9, 12, 19, 24, 27, 28 and 30.

So much Brian, so little time...


What I sincerely hope, André, is that you'll discover what makes Brian such an interesting and worthwhile composer. Once you get into his style, there is no turning back. I know, of course, which pieces are the strongest (or I think I know, with often only one performance to base my judgement on). But even in his lesser things, there is always something that you won't hear anywhere else. But that's love for you, perhaps. Brian is, quite simply, nearest to my heart.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lilas Pastia on July 20, 2008, 06:33:58 AM
Thanks, Johan. Listening to the Gothic was a daunting enterprise, not so much because of its size but the sheer diversity and downright weirdness of the work. Including the decidedly strange decision to end it all quietly. Talk about non-conformism! But I certainly discovered fascinating things and might acquire the Naxos discs for the sake of hearing it in 'normal' studio sound.

As I recall it, I enjoyed the symphonies I have (8 and 9 in particular), but it's been too long since I last listened to them. So, given the right advocacy (yours and the artists who recorded it) I will probably get to a better level of understanding. Mind you, before Maciek so zealously put forth all kind of polish music on these pages I had no idea who else there was other than Szymanowski, Lutoslawski and Penderecki. I now have about 75 discs worth of material and immensely enjoy and respect that corner of the classical repertoire.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 21, 2008, 06:09:50 AM
Hm, it's very quiet in the Composer Discussion Forum at the moment. Members away on holiday? In exotic places like Austria or Crete, I wonder :)

Anyway, as a long-time lover(oh no-that sounds like another popular song title ;D) of Brian's music, I had better join this discussion :)

In the final two chapters of Volume III of "The Symphonies of Havergal Brian" the author, Malcolm MacDonald, attempted to summarise the views he had at the time(1983) of each symphony and where each stood in relation to its neighbours. He produced a schematic diagram or genealogical tree of the symphonies(albeit with definite caveats) and a tentative and provisional ranking order.

While he would no doubt concede that his views have shifted over time through further study of the works Malcolm clearly felt then that after three volumes which dealt with each symphony in turn and several further chapters dealing with the wider musical issues relating to Brian's symphonism it would be helpful to the reader whose familiarity with the music was a very great deal less than his that a Recapitulation was much in order.

Setting 'The Gothic' to one side as 'unrankable', he put Symphonies 3, 4, 7, 16 and 30 in the top rank-regarding these five as equal to the two Elgar symphonies and the best by Vaughan Williams and of a stature to place Brian in the same league as Mahler and Sibelius as a symphonist. From these five he did not express a favourite but No.4 'Das Siegeslied' comes in for especially high praise.

Just below these five (but still regarded as 'masterpieces') come Nos. 8, 10, 17, 20 and 22.

Next-but perhaps creeping into the higher category- Nos. 19, 24 and 28.

At the lower end-as the least highly regarded- are Nos. 14 and 26. ("..vision is at a low ebb...technique sometimes a matter of routine")

Slightly above these two come Nos. 9, 13, 21 and 23.

The remainder occupy the middle ground.

Malcolm emphasised that these were personal selections and that other listeners would have different preferences. I certainly do!
Two of the lower rated symphonies-Nos. 9 and 14-may not be great symphonies but i actually enjoy both immensely and used to argue the point with Malcolm MacDonald when we were much younger!

Anyone with the slightest interest in Brian really should try to get hold of Malcolm MacDonals' books. Wonderfully well written they make for a superlative introduction to the music and listening to the symphonies while following Malcolm's descriptions helps enormously towards an understanding of what Brian is doing!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hector on July 21, 2008, 06:53:19 AM
No 6 or 16?

The Lyrita reissue should change all that!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on July 21, 2008, 07:09:12 AM
MacDonald's Brian books, like everything he writes, are a storehouse of great writing - he has a way of finding a perfect phrase, and does a such a superb job of summing up Brian's symphonic output that reading him I could almost 'hear' music which (before I had all the symphonies) I had never heard in the flesh. The more general chapters -  the first couple in volume one and the bulk of volume three - are just superb; one comes away feeling one really knows Brian and his mind.

Personally, I'd put no 8 into the top rank too - in some respects it's Brian's most Brianic symphony, concise, brief and taking his juxtaposition technique to an extreme position, balancing the vulnerably lyrical with the dangerously martial, each pushing the other to evermore extraordinary lengths; but it's also an utterly new reimagining of symphonic form from first principles, and it works to a startling degree. It also contains some of Brian's most attractive melodic and harmonic material.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2008, 07:10:50 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 21, 2008, 06:09:50 AM
Anyone with the slightest interest in Brian really should try to get hold of Malcolm MacDonals' books. Wonderfully well written they make for a superlative introduction to the music and listening to the symphonies while following Malcolm's descriptions helps enormously towards an understanding of what Brian is doing!

Yes, those books are seminal and without them I probably wouldn't have discovered Brian as early as I did (Amsterdam, 1977).

Re ranking the symphonies - I really rate 13 and 14 higher than MacDonald does. For me they are great successors to 8-12. Symphony No. 15 is celebration, 16 perhaps at the other end of 8 in its indubitable triumph, and 17 is the wild and lyrical epilogue to that whole phase of Brian's symphonic career.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2008, 07:16:00 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on July 21, 2008, 07:09:12 AM
Personally, I'd put no 8 into the top rank too - in some respects it's Brian's most Brianic symphony, concise, brief and taking his juxtaposition technique to an extreme position, balancing the vulnerably lyrical with the dangerously martial, each pushing the other to evermore extraordinary lengths; but it's also an utterly new reimagining of symphonic form from first principles, and it works to a startling degree. It also contains some of Brian's most attractive melodic and harmonic material.

MacDonald calls the 8th the 'quintessential' Brian symphony (iirc) and it probably is, in its unresolved tension of harsh against soft. 'Thoughts against thoughts in groans grind',  to quote Gerard Manley Hopkins (I have always connected his 'sprung rhythm' to Brian's sinewy, double-dotted bass lines! Brian is so English in this.)

       ‘Some find me a sword; some
             The flange and the rail; flame,
          Fang, or flood’ goes Death on drum,
              And storms bugle his fame.
    But wé dream we are rooted in earth―Dust!
    Flesh falls within sight of us, we, though our flower the same,
          Wave with the meadow, forget that there must
The sour scythe cringe, and the blear share come.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on July 21, 2008, 07:17:11 AM
Hopkins was a composer too, of course...this may or may not be relevant!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 21, 2008, 07:18:55 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on July 21, 2008, 07:17:11 AM
Hopkins was a composer too, of course...this may or may not be relevant!

Was he? Rushes off to Wikipedia.......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2008, 07:19:49 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on July 21, 2008, 07:17:11 AM
Hopkins was a composer too, of course...this may or may not be relevant!

Yes, and it seems that Hopkins was thinking of chromaticism in 1865, when Tristan was first revealed to the world... (Read it in the classic Hopkins study by Gardner.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 21, 2008, 07:37:25 AM
Cringes in abject shame :(

I read some Gerard Manley Hopkins at school-"The Wreck of the Deutschland" as I recall-but since then.......

Returning hurriedly to Havergal Brian before my poetic philistinism is exposed further..

I would really like to hear Symphonies Nos. 2 and 3 in modern recordings which could enable a more considered judgment on such complex scores.

I also wish we could hear Brian's Concerto for Orchestra which sounds highly impressive in Malcolm MacDonald's description.

Yes, I share the admiration expressed for Symphony No.8 and indeed for all the symphonies stretching through from No.6 to No.17(my favourite Brian symphonies!).

I was thinking the other day whilst driving from my home to Edinburgh what I would do if somehow or other I could come into possession of a fortune :) Buy a yacht-no! Buy a castle-probably not. A range of other possibilities drifted through my mind. Then it came to me-of course, finance the recording of a complete set of Brian symphonies!! Top-flight orchestra of course(London Symphony, London Philharmonic) and a conductor...? Ah, but who would want to do it, to learn all these works and commit to such a cycle?

Ah..fantasies...! :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2008, 07:48:12 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 21, 2008, 07:37:25 AM
I was thinking the other day whilst driving from my home to Edinburgh what I would do if somehow or other I could come into possession of a fortune :) Buy a yacht-no! Buy a castle-probably not. A range of other possibilities drifted through my mind. Then it came to me-of course, finance the recording of a complete set of Brian symphonies!! Top-flight orchestra of course(London Symphony, London Philharmonic) and a conductor...? Ah, but who would want to do it, to learn all these works and commit to such a cycle?

Ah..fantasies...! :) :)

Allow me to join in on this dreary summer's day - it's always been my firm intention that if I become a famous writer (!), I'll do everything in my power to promote Brian in the Netherlands. It's my dream to hear him played by the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 21, 2008, 08:01:20 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 21, 2008, 07:48:12 AM
Allow me to join in on this dreary summer's day - it's always been my firm intention that if I become a famous writer (!), I'll do everything in my power to promote Brian in the Netherlands. It's my dream to hear him played by the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra...

Jansons? Or do you have some other conductor in mind?

That's part of the problem you see! I spoke about this to another friend from school, another Macdonald(Hugh this time) who was the boss of the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra. He planned programmes and hired conductors. Hugh told me that it was not as simple as I fondly imagined to get the two in conjunction. You could decide to programme-let us say, for the sake of argument, a symphony by Panufnik and then find that you simply could not get anyone to conduct it. Certain conductors would be unavailable at the right time, others would claim that they didn't like/understand the music. You might get someone(like Vernon Handley) who would then fall ill and have to be replaced at short notice by another conductor who turned out to be no more than adequate.

Oh...reality..... :( ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2008, 08:25:52 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 21, 2008, 08:01:20 AM
Jansons? Or do you have some other conductor in mind?

He'll do.

QuoteOh...reality..... :( ;)

I know. That's why we have dreams!  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Renfield on July 21, 2008, 09:12:06 AM
Well, I've already promised I'd finance a good friend's MMO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMORPG) project if my writing works out, the books sell, and I become filthy rich. But I suppose if my financial success is such that I can buy a small country, I could certainly do the Brian symphonies on the side. ;) :P

Firmly tongue-in-cheek, of course. Though I really would give the money if I could spare it, even from my impressions of the Gothic alone.

Edit: Because I want to hear them well-performed, if nothing else!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2008, 09:28:14 AM
Quote from: Renfield on July 21, 2008, 09:12:06 AM
Because I want to hear them well-performed, if nothing else!

And so say all of us!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lukeottevanger on July 21, 2008, 11:41:37 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 21, 2008, 07:19:49 AM
Yes, and it seems that Hopkins was thinking of chromaticism in 1865, when Tristan was first revealed to the world... (Read it in the classic Hopkins study by Gardner.)

More than that - I remember someone a few years ago opening a thread about 'the earliest quarter tone' with a scanned manuscript of a Hopkins song which contained just such a thing - decades before Haba, Bartok, Berg, Enescu etc. etc first experimented with them!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2008, 11:46:34 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on July 21, 2008, 11:41:37 AM
More than that - I remember someone a few years ago opening a thread about 'the earliest quarter tone' with a scanned manuscript of a Hopkins song which contained just such a thing - decades before Haba, Bartok, Berg, Enescu etc. etc first experimented with them!

Fascinating and wholly characteristic of his utter independence of mind.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 18, 2008, 06:39:43 AM
News from the Brian front, from the latest issue of the Havergal Brian Newsletter... (click to enlarge)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 18, 2008, 07:15:11 AM
Interesting news!

Have you ever seen the Gothic live Johan?

I was lucky to see Ole Schmidt conduct in London decades ago; a great experience.

We need a professional recording of Symphony 10; one of his greatest scores.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 18, 2008, 08:32:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 18, 2008, 07:15:11 AM
Interesting news!

Have you ever seen the Gothic live Johan?

I was lucky to see Ole Schmidt conduct in London decades ago; a great experience.

We need a professional recording of Symphony 10; one of his greatest scores.

Lucky you! No, 'The Gothic' is still something I have to experience. I don't think I'll go all the way to Australia, though, to listen to it...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: eyeresist on August 18, 2008, 06:04:44 PM

It's particularly interesting that they'll be filming it, giving many outside Queensland the chance to "see" their first performance.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 20, 2008, 12:39:01 AM
The lady herself...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: tjguitar on October 25, 2008, 10:39:37 AM
I don't even know where to begin with Brian. So many discs to choose from!

Oye...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2008, 11:13:51 AM
Quote from: tjguitar on October 25, 2008, 10:39:37 AM
I don't even know where to begin with Brian. So many discs to choose from!

Oye...

For starters:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/0jf2yvnm2tj/Brian 8.mp3

(Symphony No. 8 )

and

http://www.mediafire.com/file/wijgqyozmjm/Brian Symphony No. 6 LPO Myer Fredman.mp3

Good luck! No. 8 is tougher than No. 6, btw...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: tjguitar on October 25, 2008, 12:31:28 PM
Many thanks. I have downloaded the 6th.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 25, 2008, 12:50:55 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on October 25, 2008, 11:13:51 AM
For starters:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/0jf2yvnm2tj/Brian 8.mp3

(Symphony No. 8 )

and

http://www.mediafire.com/file/wijgqyozmjm/Brian Symphony No. 6 LPO Myer Fredman.mp3

Good luck! No. 8 is tougher than No. 6, btw...

Do you think so, Johan? I am slightly puzzled by that assessment. I always found the 8th and 9th to be amongst HB's most accessible symphonies :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 25, 2008, 12:58:49 PM
I listened to these two last week (8 and 9) and am still not sure if I find them "approachable". But at least the recordings certainly make a good case for the music (it's powerful and arresting if anything else).

Brian deserves some label/conductor championship. In this era of completism, here's a case where an enterprising label would have a field day. Add savvy marketing and a reasonable price, and I'd jump for the boxed set ! :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2008, 01:02:41 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 25, 2008, 12:50:55 PM
Do you think so, Johan? I am slightly puzzled by that assessment. I always found the 8th and 9th to be amongst HB's most accessible symphonies :)

Don't underestimate the strangeness of Brian's idiom to the uninitiated, Colin. You and I may not have had many difficulties because of a natural affinity, but I don't know what tjguitar is used to. So No. 6 seems an excellent introduction, though it doesn't prepare you for the sterner and grittier glories of HB's more characteristic works (like the 8th and 12th and 16th). I remember I took to the the Eighth immediately, but had to struggle a bit with the Ninth (first movement). Though that is so long ago, most if not all of Brian's doesn't pose any problem to me anymore...

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 25, 2008, 12:58:49 PM
I listened to these two last week (8 and 9) and am still not sure if I find them "approachable". But at least the recordings certainly make a good case for the music (it's powerful and arresting if anything else).

Exactly.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 25, 2008, 01:09:57 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on October 25, 2008, 12:58:49 PM
I listened to these two last week (8 and 9) and am still not sure if I find them "approachable". But at least the recordings certainly make a good case for the music (it's powerful and arresting if anything else).

Brian deserves some label/conductor championship. In this era of completism, here's a case where an enterprising label would have a field day. Add savvy marketing and a reasonable price, and I'd jump for the boxed set ! :D

Oh dear..I could write so much about this-although Johan would do a much better job!

Marco Polo committed itself to recording a complete cycle albeit with a wide range and variety of orchestras and conductors. A number of cds were released but sales were variable. To be honest, the recording of the Gothic in Bratislava cost an aweful lot of money! Nor did Marco Polo market the series or individual cds as well as they could. (These were in the days when the Naxos empire issued full-price Marco Polo and cheap Naxos cds). Funding was obtained from the Rex Foundation of San Francisco(formed by members of the Grateful Dead) for some of the cd issues but I am not sure whether or not that dried up. Anyway, the series ground to a halt some years ago and there seems no likeliehood of more being recorded :( :(

HB symphonies are extremely difficult to play (preferably properly ;D) and for orchestras and conductors to learn. They require a lot of rehearsal time. In these days of global recession....... :(

The irony of course is that if HB had written fewer symphonies it would be more economical for a company to invest the cash!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mark G. Simon on October 25, 2008, 01:10:38 PM
Also the apparently conventional harmonic language and thematic gestures make one think one is getting something much more straightforward than is actually the case. I always get this uncomfortable feeling about five minutes into a Brian symphony that "Hey, where the heck am I, I'm lost!"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 25, 2008, 01:11:47 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on October 25, 2008, 01:02:41 PM
Don't underestimate the strangeness of Brian's idiom to the uninitiated, Colin. You and I may not have had many difficulties because of a natural affinity, but I don't know what tjguitar is used to. So No. 6 seems an excellent introduction, though it doesn't prepare you for the sterner and grittier glories of HB's more characteristic works (like the 8th and 12th and 16th). I remember I took to the the Eighth immediately, but had to struggle a bit with the Ninth (first movement). Though that is so long ago, most if not all of Brian's doesn't pose any problem to me anymore...

Exactly.

I am duly reproved :-[

You are-of course-quite correct :) One's enthusiasm sometimes runs away with one! "If I think that this is a masterpiece everybody else must do so as well!"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2008, 01:16:07 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 25, 2008, 01:09:57 PM
Oh dear..I could write so much about this-although Johan would do a much better job!

Not in this case. A very pithy exposition.

Quote from: Mark G. Simon on October 25, 2008, 01:10:38 PM
Also the apparently conventional harmonic language and thematic gestures make one think one is getting something much more straightforward than is actually the case. I always get this uncomfortable feeling about five minutes into a Brian symphony that "Hey, where the heck am I, I'm lost!"

Listening to Brian is an adventure. It is important to feel, though, you are heading somewhere. Those who are attuned to Brian's rather quirky 'logic' don't experience that many difficulties and enjoy the ride. Others feel lost and quit altogether. I can't blame them. There isn't a middle way with Brian - you either love him or leave him.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on October 25, 2008, 01:18:40 PM
Quote from: Mark G. Simon on October 25, 2008, 01:10:38 PM
"Hey, where the heck am I, I'm lost!"

A certain JD, halfway Harwich and Hook of Holland, Force 8, clock moving backwards from 3 to 2, stark darkness, headphones playing Brian's 32nd, drone of the disco aboard... ??
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2008, 01:21:16 PM
Quote from: Christo on October 25, 2008, 01:18:40 PM
A certain JD, halfway Harwich and Hook of Holland, Force 8, clock moving backwards from 3 to 2, stark darkness, headphones playing Brian's 32nd, drone of the disco aboard... ??

Small annotation to this cryptic, Joycean passage - fellow member Vandermolen (JD) is on his way to Holland...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: tjguitar on October 25, 2008, 01:33:09 PM
I love those trumpets one minute into the track in the 6th symphony link that Jezetha posted. :)

Some nice use of mallet percussion in there too.

Hmmmmm. Interesting.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on October 27, 2008, 06:08:58 AM
Interesting talk of Brians 'idiom'.  It's an idiom I still can't get past.  Brian is a composer who both baffles and reveals, although what he reveals is often baffling itself!  But the baffling-ness of Brian demands to be heard again and again - his music is that of a Zen-like big time symphonic composer.  We might not know where he's taking us even if we get lost on the way, but when we get to the end of his work we know that every note has been bang in the right place and the entire symphony has resonated a deeper understanding which we ourselves can only wish for.
Brian is in my top ten symphonists of all time.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 27, 2008, 06:22:00 AM
Quote from: mahler10th on October 27, 2008, 06:08:58 AM
Interesting talk of Brians 'idiom'.  It's an idiom I still can't get past.  Brian is a composer who both baffles and reveals, although what he reveals is often baffling itself!  But the baffling-ness of Brian demands to be heard again and again - his music is that of a Zen-like big time symphonic composer.  We might not know where he's taking us even if we get lost on the way, but when we get to the end of his work we know that every note has been bang in the right place and the entire symphony has resonated a deeper understanding which we ourselves can only wish for.
Brian is in my top ten symphonists of all time.

Good post, John! I always get the feeling with Brian he's lowering his bucket into some deep level of his psyche. There is a flow of ideas and emotions there that you seem to hear 'in the raw', as it were. This is what is Expressionist about Brian. The music erupts, flies off tangents, breaks through barriers, a sort of musical stream-of-consciousness, and what keeps the whole thing together is the mystery of the powerful personality behind it all. Only from Symphony No. 18 onwards is Brian trying to order his material in a more traditional (classical) way. But even there his originality and waywardness are in evidence.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 27, 2008, 06:29:09 AM
In an hour's time I'll meet up with fellow member Vandermolen, in Leiden. So - I'm off!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on October 27, 2008, 06:38:07 AM
I like the emphatic full stop in this thread title.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 27, 2008, 06:43:15 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on October 27, 2008, 06:29:09 AM
In an hour's time I'll meet up with fellow member Vandermolen, in Leiden. So - I'm off!

Be sure to give him my regards...if you get this message, of course! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on October 27, 2008, 07:08:30 AM
Seems like we have enough people here for a mini Brian Society Chapter, and the first board meeting is about to take place...

Listening to Brian Violin Concerto in the meantime...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on October 27, 2008, 08:07:55 AM
Jezetha, I wanted to download #8 of you, but hey: Mediafire is terribly slow, 9 kb/s here in old Europe, (axis of the good).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 27, 2008, 03:13:27 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 27, 2008, 06:43:15 AM
Be sure to give him my regards...if you get this message, of course! :)

Hi, Colin! Christo read your post and has done what you wanted... Well, I have just returned from Leiden and a wonderful afternoon and evening was had by all. Christo will undoubtedly post some pictures of our historic meeting, which also featured Jeffrey's lovely wife and daughter.

Quote from: Wurstwasser on October 27, 2008, 08:07:55 AM
Jezetha, I wanted to download #8 of you, but hey: Mediafire is terribly slow, 9 kb/s here in old Europe, (axis of the good).

Wurstwasser, would it help you if I uploaded it to Rapidshare? What speed is your broadband connection?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 27, 2008, 03:57:26 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on October 27, 2008, 03:13:27 PM
Hi, Colin! Christo read your post and has done what you wanted... Well, I have just returned from Leiden and a wonderful afternoon and evening was had by all. Christo will undoubtedly post some pictures of our historic meeting, which also featured Jeffrey's lovely wife and daughter.

Wurstwasser, would it help you if I uploaded it to Rapidshare? What speed is your broadband connection?

Excellent news! Glad it went so well :) :) (I am jealous :))
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 27, 2008, 04:03:48 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 27, 2008, 03:57:26 PM
Excellent news! Glad it went so well :) :) (I am jealous :))

Your time will come, Colin, your time will come.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 27, 2008, 04:04:47 PM
Quote from: springrite on October 27, 2008, 07:08:30 AM
Seems like we have enough people here for a mini Brian Society Chapter, and the first board meeting is about to take place...

Listening to Brian Violin Concerto in the meantime...

One Brian's most beautiful works, I think...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on October 27, 2008, 06:48:52 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 27, 2008, 03:57:26 PM
Excellent news! Glad it went so well :) :) (I am jealous :))

Yes Colin.  I too would like to meet up with some members of this board.  Perhaps if we're both here next Spring we can meet up in Perth and plan an assault on somewhere like Zeelandic Flanders, and head North for some meetings and general Classical malarkey.
Meantime guys, I am moving home, and will not be online for a wee while as it is a rather complicated than normal move...will explain sometime!  It should have taken place just before Summer but didn't, but now it is...Mind you, while I'm waiting for new connections to be sorted out (and indeed the new flat), I might get a Vodafone hub for my laptop so I can still keep yapping.  Should be back before Xmas for sure though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 27, 2008, 06:54:21 PM
Quote from: mahler10th on October 27, 2008, 06:48:52 PM
Yes Colin.  I too would like to meet up with some members of this board.  Perhaps if we're both here next Spring we can meet up in Perth and plan an assault on somewhere like Zeelandic Flanders, and head North for some meetings and general Classical malarkey.
Meantime guys, I am moving home, and will not be online for a wee while as it is a rather complicated than normal move...will explain sometime!  It should have taken place just before Summer but didn't, but now it is...Mind you, while I'm waiting for new connections to be sorted out (and indeed the new flat), I might get a Vodafone hub for my laptop so I can still keep yapping.  Should be back before Xmas for sure though.

Absolutely! We are not that far apart after all ;D

I hope the move goes smoothly and without too much trauma. Haste ye back...as the road signs say as one leaves Scotland :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on October 27, 2008, 10:45:51 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on October 27, 2008, 03:13:27 PMWurstwasser, would it help you if I uploaded it to Rapidshare? What speed is your broadband connection?
Yes, RS would help. I'm on a 1.7mByte/s line and have an RS account.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 27, 2008, 10:47:04 PM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on October 27, 2008, 10:45:51 PM
Yes, RS would help. I'm on a 1.7mByte/s line and have an RS account.

Excellent. And, btw, I am on a 1.7mByte/s line, too, and have an RS account!

Watch this space.

http://rapidshare.com/files/158271475/Brian_8.mp3
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: donaldopato on October 28, 2008, 05:10:19 AM
Ah yes, Havergal Brian...allow a newbie a bit of time to possibly rehash what has likely discussed before.

As a conductor friend of mine stated, "Brian is an acquired taste". True, but one (like good scotch) that I am glad I acquired. Criticized for being "quirky" and writing "clunky" music, it is those two traits that give his music such individuality; a stand out in an increasingly homogeneous musical world. A great orchestral colorist, his orchestration may challenge an orchestra's balance, but there is no dispute for me at least, that when it works, it is amazingly effective. The end of the 6th, the concertante piano in the 3rd just to name a couple of great Brian moments. I think the end of the neglected 10th is one of the most imaginative in a modern work, letting the percussion have the last word is brilliant.

I could go on.. suffice to say, I hope to join in the Brian discussion frequently.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2008, 05:15:13 AM
Great to hear from you, Donaldopato!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 28, 2008, 07:12:00 AM
Quote from: donaldopato on October 28, 2008, 05:10:19 AM
Ah yes, Havergal Brian...allow a newbie a bit of time to possibly rehash what has likely discussed before.

As a conductor friend of mine stated, "Brian is an acquired taste". True, but one (like good scotch) that I am glad I acquired. Criticized for being "quirky" and writing "clunky" music, it is those two traits that give his music such individuality; a stand out in an increasingly homogeneous musical world. A great orchestral colorist, his orchestration may challenge an orchestra's balance, but there is no dispute for me at least, that when it works, it is amazingly effective. The end of the 6th, the concertante piano in the 3rd just to name a couple of great Brian moments. I think the end of the neglected 10th is one of the most imaginative in a modern work, letting the percussion have the last word is brilliant.

I could go on.. suffice to say, I hope to join in the Brian discussion frequently.

I have already welcomed you in another thread  to the this site but I do so again with even greater enthusiasm as a fellow HB admirer :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lilas Pastia on November 02, 2008, 06:49:16 PM
Another spin to the EMI disc of 8 and 9. I definitely root for 8, which I recognized at once. Previous encounters did let the music sink in, somewhat to my surprise. It's as if I had known it for years (which is the actually the case, but you know what I mean :D. I also 'got' the 9th, but it's rather more fragmented, less continuous in its discourse. Beautiful recording and playing. I wish there would be more of that caliber.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 03, 2008, 05:13:23 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on November 02, 2008, 06:49:16 PM
Another spin to the EMI disc of 8 and 9. I definitely root for 8, which I recognized at once. Previous encounters did let the music sink in, somewhat to my surprise. It's as if I had known it for years (which is the actually the case, but you know what I mean :D. I also 'got' the 9th, but it's rather more fragmented, less continuous in its discourse. Beautiful recording and playing. I wish there would be more of that caliber.

Sir Charles Groves was a very fine conductor(and a very nice man) who did a tremendous amount of really excellent work in the concert hall, opera house and recording studio! During his terms as principal conductor of the(now) BBC Philharmonic Orchestra, the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra and the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra he conducted an enormous number of British compositions, many of them by unfashionable composers. Fortunately he left a considerable recorded legacy of which the Brian disc is but one example...but what fine performances indeed. Pity he didn't get to do more Brian :(

Now....off to listen for the first time to Arnell's 1st and 6th symphonies!  Excited ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 03, 2008, 05:27:54 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 03, 2008, 05:13:23 AM
Sir Charles Groves was a very fine conductor(and a very nice man) who did a tremendous amount of really excellent work in the concert hall, opera house and recording studio! During his terms as principal conductor of the(now) BBC Philharmonic Orchestra, the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra and the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra he conducted an enormous number of British compositions, many of them by unfashionable composers. Fortunately he left a considerable recorded legacy of which the Brian disc is but one example...but what fine performances indeed. Pity he didn't get to do more Brian :(

Now....off to listen for the first time to Arnell's 1st and 6th symphonies!  Excited ;D ;D

Well, I know (iirc) he did conduct Part One of "The Gothic" during the Brian Centenary Festival in 1976. And Sir Charles Groves also did the Ninth then (again iirc). I remember reading a review in an early Havergal Brian Society Newsletter, where it was maintained that this is the reason his recorded performance of the Ninth is better than that of the Eighth. The Eighth was rehearsed in the studio only a few times and then recorded.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on November 10, 2008, 03:41:20 AM
I had the Gothic with me on my lecture trip and listened to it twice while on the train. I had much better feel about it than I did previously. In fact, the part one was magnificent this time around (which somehow eluded me the previous 4 or 5 times). The Part Two is also better than what I remembered, but still failed to hold my attention, nothing like part one.

I gave part one a third listening as the train approached Beijing. Good stuff!  Not sure when I will give enough time for this piece (I mean as a whole including part two) again. If I can, I will do so within a week or two or it will probably be put into the bottom of the pile again.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 10, 2008, 03:52:32 AM
Quote from: springrite on November 10, 2008, 03:41:20 AM
I had the Gothic with me on my lecture trip and listened to it twice while on the train. I had much better feel about it than I did previously. In fact, the part one was magnificent this time around (which somehow eluded me the previous 4 or 5 times). The Part Two is also better than what I remembered, but still failed to hold my attention, nothing like part one.

I gave part one a third listening as the train approached Beijing. Good stuff!  Not sure when I will give enough time for this piece (I mean as a whole including part two) again. If I can, I will do so within a week or two or it will probably be put into the bottom of the pile again.

Paul, I find the idea that Brian should sound in a Chinese train absolutely mind-blowing and moving... Glad to see you're slowly but surely getting the measure of this monster. (Btw - one of my best friends is a Sinologist, she's writing a PhD thesis about Chinese literature. In one week's time she's off to China for three months to do field work in Beijing and Shanghai.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on November 10, 2008, 03:58:29 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on November 10, 2008, 03:52:32 AM
Paul, I find the idea that Brian should sound in a Chinese train absolutely mind-blowing and moving...

It would be even more so had it been on one of those old fashioned steam engines instead of the state of the art 280km/hr bullet model.

Quote from: Jezetha on November 10, 2008, 03:52:32 AM
Btw - one of my best friends is a Sinologist, she's writing a PhD thesis about Chinese literature. In one week's time she's off to China for three months to do field work in Beijing and Shanghai.

Good for her! She can call me when she's in Beijing. The number will be in PM. Is it too late to ask for a CD or two of Polish music that is NOT from the Big Two?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 10, 2008, 04:13:25 AM
Quote from: springrite on November 10, 2008, 03:58:29 AM
It would be even more so had it been on one of those old fashioned steam engines instead of the state of the art 280km/hr bullet model.

;D

QuoteGood for her! She can call me when she's in Beijing. The number will be in PM. Is it too late to ask for a CD or two of Polish music that is NOT from the Big Two?

You mean Karlowicz?! Others? Fire away!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on November 10, 2008, 04:36:06 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on November 10, 2008, 04:13:25 AM

You mean Karlowicz?! Others? Fire away!

I know nothing about Polish music post 1950 other than Luto and Pendi! So I rely on your judgment.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 10, 2008, 04:40:55 AM
Quote from: springrite on November 10, 2008, 04:36:06 AM
I know nothing about Polish music post 1950 other than Luto and Pendi! So I rely on your judgment.

Karlowicz is late Romantic, btw, and quite wonderful. You could have all of his symphonic poems, if you like. Re post 1950 Polish composers - Maciek is the absolute authority there, he could advise you best. But I do have a few works (thanks to him). I'll see what I'll do.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 10, 2008, 04:42:26 AM
Quote from: springrite on November 10, 2008, 04:36:06 AM
I know nothing about Polish music post 1950 other than Luto and Pendi! So I rely on your judgment.

"Luto and Pendi" ::) ::)

A week ago or so it was "Arnie" Bax >:(

What IS this forum coming too?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 10, 2008, 04:44:13 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 10, 2008, 04:42:26 AM
"Luto and Pendi" ::) ::)

A week ago or so it was "Arnie" Bax >:(

What IS this forum coming too?

I think this Forie is cute.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on November 10, 2008, 05:35:36 AM
Eddie, the Elgar ...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on November 10, 2008, 05:42:48 AM
Quote from: Wurstwasser on November 10, 2008, 05:35:36 AM
Eddie, the Elgar ...

Or, as John Cleese would call him: Eddie Baby!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 10, 2008, 05:56:16 AM
Can you not sense my utter outrage radiating across the cosmos?

If anyone calls Wagner or Strauss a 'Dick' I shall do a passable imitation of Krakatoa in its death throes ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: The new erato on November 10, 2008, 09:38:32 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 10, 2008, 05:56:16 AM
Can you not sense my utter outrage radiating across the cosmos?

If anyone calls Wagner or Strauss a 'Dick' I shall ido a passable imitation of Krakatoa in its death throes ;D ;D
Only Arnell is a Dick.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 10, 2008, 10:20:28 AM
Remind me of your first name ;) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on November 10, 2008, 10:21:29 AM
Quote from: erato on November 10, 2008, 09:38:32 AM
Only Arnell is a Dick.

For those of us who knows him well, he's Dickie.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 10, 2008, 10:23:24 AM
Quote from: springrite on November 10, 2008, 10:21:29 AM
For those of us who knows him well, he's Dickie.

:o >:( >:D $:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2009, 02:58:51 PM
Found this on Usenet. Jeffrey Anderson from CBC and Robert Simpson (representing the BBC) interview Havergal Brian. It was recorded in 1969. (Taken from reel-to-reel tapes, hence the sound quality.)

http://www.mediafire.com/?2nmmhklof2f
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Renfield on January 07, 2009, 04:08:27 PM
Fascinating!

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on January 30, 2009, 05:23:54 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 07, 2009, 02:58:51 PM
Found this on Usenet. Jeffrey Anderson from CBC and Robert Simpson (representing the BBC) interview Havergal Brian. It was recorded in 1969. (Taken from reel-to-reel tapes, hence the sound quality.)

http://www.mediafire.com/?2nmmhklof2f

Thank you so much for that interview, which is downloading now and I haven't even heard yet!  Had a blast of his mighty first yesterday and it hit the mark again, stunning.  Also listened again to his 5th and 12th, both of which do something to me in an irregularly happy way.

Well, I have now heard it, and what a revealing interview, especially towards the end where Brian revealed his methods of composition.  This audio snippet (40+ mins) of Brian is a real treasure, he discusses his association with Elgar, Vaughan Williams, Bax, and other luminaries of British Musical History.  He explains his compositional habits and 'influences' (really only one, Elgar, but the influence did not affect his own work.)  Havergal Brian was a completely individual composer, unaffected by what everyone else was doing.  His output was spectacular in its own right and I AM STILL ANNOYED AND TROUBLED THAT HIS WORK HAS NOT YET BEEN SIEZED UPON AND PERFORMED WORLDWIDE ON A SCALE AS LARGE AS HIS GOTHIC...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: schweitzeralan on March 08, 2009, 01:45:17 PM
Quote from: Bonehelm on June 09, 2007, 10:32:13 AM
His gothic symphony is quite possibly the only work in the repertoire that can stand up to Mahler's eighth in terms of scale and mass...

Quite an involved work, massive.  A reviwer in Amazon compared it with Scriabin's "Mysterium."  Not in musical language, but in scope and cosmic, even mystic persuasions.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 08, 2009, 03:01:21 PM
Quote from: schweitzeralan on March 08, 2009, 01:45:17 PM
Quite an involved work, massive.  A reviwer in Amazon compared it with Scriabin's "Mysterium."  Not in musical language, but in scope and cosmic, even mystic persuasions.

Except that Havergal Brian actually wrote and finished the 'Gothic'. Scriabin left only sketches for 'Mysterium'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: schweitzeralan on March 08, 2009, 07:08:37 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 08, 2009, 03:01:21 PM
Except that Havergal Brian actually wrote and finished the 'Gothic'. Scriabin left only sketches for 'Mysterium'.

Right.  Scriabin/Nemptin.  Some reviewers believe the most of "Mysterium"  was conceived and elaborated by Nemptin.  I can only go by what the experts write.  I personally think that "Mysterium" is a complex work and transcendental work; as is, The 1st Symphony of Havergal Brian.  Am pleased that both are available on CD's; although I did see on Amazon that the "manufacturer" may not release any further recordings, at least for now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mark G. Simon on March 09, 2009, 05:34:55 AM
Quote from: schweitzeralan on March 08, 2009, 07:08:37 PM
Some reviewers believe the most of "Mysterium"  was conceived and elaborated by Nemptin. 

They are correct. Scriabin left nothing more than a bundle of sketches. Nemtin somehow turned them into 2 1/2 hours of music. Part I, "Universe", is, as you say, complex and transcendent, and the opening chord is one of the most astonishing sounds I've ever heard from an orchestra. Pts. 2-3 just rehash the same material to no good end.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on May 13, 2009, 03:07:51 PM
I have a question regarding the Lenard performance of the first symphony. An Amazon reviewer swears blind that the Naxos reissue of the Marco Polo recording sounds a lot better (ie. remastered in some way). This seems a little unexpected, given Naxos' usual policies, but I suppose this symphony is a rather "special" case, so they may have made the effort. Can anyone confirm whether this is true?

I ask because while I prefer the Boult live recording, I feel I should own a proper copy of it - and I don't want the crap one, even if the Marco Polo version is cheaper.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on May 13, 2009, 05:15:41 PM
Quote from: Lethe on May 13, 2009, 03:07:51 PM
I have a question regarding the Lenard performance of the first symphony. An Amazon reviewer swears blind that the Naxos reissue of the Marco Polo recording sounds a lot better (ie. remastered in some way). This seems a little unexpected, given Naxos' usual policies, but I suppose this symphony is a rather "special" case, so they may have made the effort. Can anyone confirm whether this is true?

I ask because while I prefer the Boult live recording, I feel I should own a proper copy of it - and I don't want the crap one, even if the Marco Polo version is cheaper.

The Marco Polo version is not "crap" :) It is not perfect... but then I find it hard to imagine that any performance of the Gothic will ever approach perfection! It was an amazing achievement for these Slovak forces to put the Gothic onto disc and I think that they deserve huge plaudits for their efforts.
If we get another recorded Gothic I will be surprised!

Here is an extremely interesting and illuminating article by David J. Brown about the recording sessions in Bratislava-

http://www.havergalbrian.org/recordinggothic.htm

As Brown points out, whatever else might be said about the performance, the choral Part II is wonderfully well done

You have probably already read the Musicweb reviews-

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/jun04/Brian_Gothic.htm

There is nothing in these reviews to suggest 're-mastering' but I know no more about that.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on May 13, 2009, 05:57:17 PM
Oh, of course. Considering the difficulty it sounds quite fine - better, perhaps, than some recordings of Brian's later "easier" symphonies. Boult I only prefer on grounds of tempo and slightly improved instrumental and choral forces. The difference is not that great, though. Marco Polo's achivement is even greater given that since then, even a live performance of the thing has proven almost impossible to attempt, let alone a recording. That it doesn't look like there will be any rival recording around any time soon is further testiment to the great achivement of them finally getting it done.

'Crap' was a deliberate over-statement, it would simply have been a gnawing pain to know that I may have had an inferior version of the recording. The Amazon review was the first I had heard about any supposed remaster, and as you have also not heard of anything along these lines, I will just consider it nonsense for the time being.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 14, 2009, 12:30:49 AM
I have both the Marco Polo and the Naxos recordings ( ::)). I have not noticed much difference in sound quality but will search them out for a direct comparison.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on May 30, 2009, 12:44:42 AM
Sorry, I just bumped this to get that Mozart thread off the first page! I haven't read this thread yet. Is there a 1-31 list, with comments?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 30, 2009, 01:40:49 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 30, 2009, 12:44:42 AM
Sorry, I just bumped this to get that Mozart thread off the first page! I haven't read this thread yet. Is there a 1-31 list, with comments?

Bumping Brian is always welcome... If Brian is new to you, why not try these symphonies for starters and see what you make of them:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/0jf2yvnm2tj/Brian 8.mp3

http://www.mediafire.com/file/wijgqyozmjm/Brian Symphony No. 6 LPO Myer Fredman.mp3

http://www.mediafire.com/file/nn0axd1ichy/Brian 17 (BBC).mp3

They're all short. No. 8 is a battle between light and dark, yes and no, Brian at his most binary; No. 6 is Brian's most lyrical symphony; and No. 17 is fast, dramatic and violent.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 30, 2009, 01:59:18 AM
My faves are nos 1,2,3,6,7,8, 9, 10 and 16. I increasingly like No 2 which I did not make much of at first. No 8 would be my recommendation as a starting point.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 03, 2009, 07:25:57 AM
From the latest Havergal Brian Society Newsletter, received more than an hour ago (click to enlarge)...

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on June 03, 2009, 07:51:28 AM
Incredible news! I thought that Toccata were restricted to chamber music only due to their shoestring budget. Thank goodness for the dedicated fans who have obviously been nagging away behind the scenes to help this project reach a conclusion rather than fall apart halfway through (as many Brian projects seem to do)...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on June 03, 2009, 08:23:16 AM
It is indeed fabulous news....although I do have one or two questions :)

First of all, the article says that the selection of music has been chosen not to conflict with the Naxos symphonic cycle, as if to suggest that this is an ongoing project. I wish!!

Secondly, I note that Toccata hope to issue the first cd by the end of this year. I very much hope that this will come to pass but Toccata's track record of keeping to planned release schedule is not good. The company recorded R.O. Morris's Symphony a long time ago now and it has still not seen the light of day.

And finally, while I applaud most of the choice of music to be recorded-particularly the Elegy and the Legend 'Ave atque vale', I am disappointed that the English Suite No.5(which is already available-with difficulty, admittedly) has been chosen rather than the Suites Nos. 3 and 4 or the Concerto for Orchestra. The English Suite No.4 includes the 'Ashanti Battle Song' and would have been particularly welcome.

Ok...I am being my usual curmudgeonly self(just back from the dentist ;D)...so I will raise three cheers for the project  :) :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 03, 2009, 08:39:09 AM
I am also very glad to see some new Brian CDs appearing at last! I know Martin Anderson from Toccata (met him a few times) - he's a fiery soul, but can be rather chaotic and forgetful. I am glad the BBC will be broadcasting these concerts, too... But Colin, why not try to attend the recordings? Brian live is quite an experience!

Regarding the choice of pieces - I for one am glad the Fifth English Suite gets its first professional performance, although it would have been nice to have the other Suites recorded, too. Elegy is marvellous and deserves to be on CD. Ave Atque Vale is one of the last things Brian ever wrote and has (AFAIK) never been performed. The opera CD is very welcome, too. I am especially looking forward to the Turandot Suite (which I heard at St James's Church Piccadilly in 1995 - and I never forgot it) and the Night Ride from Faust, which has never been played.

Happy days are here again!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 03, 2009, 08:41:45 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on June 03, 2009, 08:39:09 AM
- he's a fiery soul, but can be rather chaotic and forgetful.

I am know the type!  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on June 03, 2009, 08:51:37 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on June 03, 2009, 08:39:09 AM
I am also very glad to see some new Brian CDs appearing at last! I know Martin Anderson from Toccata (met him a few times) - he's a fiery soul, but can be rather chaotic and forgetful. I am glad the BBC will be broadcasting these concerts, too... But Colin, why not try to attend the recordings? Brian live is quite an experience!

Regarding the choice of pieces - I for one am glad the Fifth English Suite gets its first professional performance, although it would have been nice to have the other Suites recorded, too. Elegy is marvellous and deserves to be on CD. Ave Atque Vale is one of the last things Brian ever wrote and has (AFAIK) never been performed. The opera CD is very welcome, too. I am especially looking forward to the Turandot Suite (which I heard at St James's Church Piccadilly in 1995 - and I never forgot it) and the Night Ride from Faust, which has never been played.

Happy days are here again!

"Ave atque vale" has been performed, Johan. Once by the LPO under Fredman in 1973 in a recorded performance that was never broadcast(inexplicably) and again last year in Orange County, California by the Orange County High School for the Arts Symphony Orchestra!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 03, 2009, 10:13:02 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on June 03, 2009, 08:51:37 AM
"Ave atque vale" has been performed, Johan. Once by the LPO under Fredman in 1973 in a recorded performance that was never broadcast(inexplicably) and again last year in Orange County, California by the Orange County High School for the Arts Symphony Orchestra!!!!!!

I bow down in awe. I have found my master.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on June 03, 2009, 10:20:13 AM
I really want to hear the cello concerto. Has it ever been recorded non commercially (or braodcast?)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 03, 2009, 11:26:19 AM
Quote from: Guido on June 03, 2009, 10:20:13 AM
I really want to hear the cello concerto.

Well, I do call that a surprise!  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 03, 2009, 12:28:00 PM
Very good news indeed but I note that the blurb says that the releases are designed not to conflict with the 'Naxos Brian Cycle'. What Naxos Brian Cycle? AFAIK Naxos have simply reissued the old Brian Marco Polo releases, with nothing new for years. I have an interesting old CBS LP with the Leicestershire Schools SO performing (very well) Symphony No 22 ('Sinfonia Brevis') one of the English Suites etc. I'd love to see that released on CD and we need a professional recording of one of Brian's greatest works - the Symphony No 10.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on June 03, 2009, 05:06:25 PM
Quote from: Guido on June 03, 2009, 10:20:13 AM
I really want to hear the cello concerto. Has it ever been recorded non commercially (or braodcast?)

It has been performed twice, Guido-first by Thomas Igloi in 1971 in a performance conducted by Sir Adrian Boult(which was broadcast) and again in 1991 by Moray Welsh(not broadcast).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on June 03, 2009, 11:18:54 PM
I was vaguely aware of those performances somehow* - Was the Igloi performance recorded by anyone (as in can I get it from anyone)?

*ah yes from here: http://www.havergalbrian.org/celloconcerto.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 03, 2009, 11:29:59 PM
Quote from: Guido on June 03, 2009, 11:18:54 PM
I was vaguely aware of those performances somehow* - Was the Igloi performance recorded by anyone (as in can I get it from anyone)?

*ah yes from here: http://www.havergalbrian.org/celloconcerto.htm

Can't help. I have it on a very old tape cassette somewhere, which I got from a fellow HBS member in the 1980s (can't do a transfer to mp3). Bad recording, bad sound, and I don't think the Cello Concerto is one of Brian's greatest utterances. His Violin Concerto, on the other hand, is, but you don't play the violin...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: schweitzeralan on June 04, 2009, 04:18:05 AM
Quote from: Lethe on May 13, 2009, 03:07:51 PM
I have a question regarding the Lenard performance of the first symphony. An Amazon reviewer swears blind that the Naxos reissue of the Marco Polo recording sounds a lot better (ie. remastered in some way). This seems a little unexpected, given Naxos' usual policies, but I suppose this symphony is a rather "special" case, so they may have made the effort. Can anyone confirm whether this is true?

I ask because while I prefer the Boult live recording, I feel I should own a proper copy of it - and I don't want the crap one, even if the Marco Polo version is cheaper.

I should perhaps know this, but I never studied all the technical aspects of harmony.  When I listen to The Scriabin/Nemptin "Mysterium," I noticed the subtle, sensuous (in places), the wonderful harmonic intricacies that define the overall, "advanced tonality" typical of many composers before the onrush of Modernism, atonality, serial music, and whatnot.

My question is: is Brian's symphony, the "Gothic," the one that I compared to "Mysterium" conceived and involved in some form of "post tonality?"  I realize it is not atonal nor serial.  That's obvious.  But is it some form of bi tonal, multitonal, or what?  I don't recognize melodic minor passages as I do in the "Mysterium," or in those Scriabinist passages which involve the "Mystic Chord"? 

Much modernist music avoids the diatonic, the major/minor sequence, etc.  Notes and chords recognizable in Debussy, Ravel, Rachmaninoff, Hanson, Barber, Shostakovitch, plus others have their slight dissonances. Many American composers, too many to mention here, create, I believe (but am not sure) in the polytonal mode; and, I  appreciate much of the neoclassical, "modernist" flavor in many 20th century works, American and European alike.  I'm having a hard time with Havregal. There are many modes, to be sure.  I just know so little about them.  My question involves the very basic concept of Brian's technical differences between his "Gothic Symphony," and the "Mysterium," which I prefer despite the depth of Brian's achievement."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on June 05, 2009, 02:01:58 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on June 03, 2009, 11:29:59 PM
Can't help. I have it on a very old tape cassette somewhere, which I got from a fellow HBS member in the 1980s (can't do a transfer to mp3). Bad recording, bad sound, and I don't think the Cello Concerto is one of Brian's greatest utterances. His Violin Concerto, on the other hand, is, but you don't play the violin...

Fair enough (though its a shame that its not so good). Just cos I don't play the violin, doesn't mean I can't hear the work... is there a recording you recommend?

What rhyme or reason is there to Brian's good or bad utterances - was there a tailing off of quality, or why was he sometimes more inspired than other times? (if this is even an answerable question!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on June 05, 2009, 03:48:47 PM
Quote from: Guido on June 05, 2009, 02:01:58 PM
Fair enough (though its a shame that its not so good). Just cos I don't play the violin, doesn't mean I can't hear the work... is there a recording you recommend?

What rhyme or reason is there to Brian's good or bad utterances - was there a tailing off of quality, or why was he sometimes more inspired than other times? (if this is even an answerable question!)

If I can answer your first question :) There is a recording of the Violin Concerto on Naxos with Marat Bisengaliev and the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra under Lionel Friend. Good performance, not quite so good recording. It is actually Brian's Second Violin Concerto. The First was stolen at Victoria Railway Station in London on June 8th 1934 and never recovered. Brian composed a new concerto incorporating those themes he could remember from the lost work.

As to your second question.....I don't think that Brian composed any 'bad' music :) Malcolm MacDonald-the Brian expert-regards the 14th and 26th symphonies as the weakest but I actually like the 14th's grand gestures ;D There is an unevenness of inspiration...but that is inevitable for most if not all artists surely? But there was no 'tailing off'...Symphony No.30, written when Brian was 91, is a masterpiece.

I am sure however that Johan will wish to reply and will do a much better job than I :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 05, 2009, 11:52:23 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on June 05, 2009, 03:48:47 PM
I am sure however that Johan will wish to reply and will do a much better job than I :)

Let me say this (I don't have much time):

I agree - there is no 'tailing off'. I do think the first 17 symphonies are all of them extremely varied, a variedness which decreases after that. But the man was already 85! So there are among the final fifteen a few symphonies I could, perhaps, live without (21, 26, even 29, which MM regards as a great piece, but which is IMO slightly formulaic). But even among those symphonies there are moments I cherish. The Cello Concerto inhabits the soundworld of the 'greyer' later symphonies, whereas the much earlier Violin Concerto is Brian in glorious technicolor.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 06, 2009, 06:10:54 AM
Questions:

- Johan, are the symphonies 6 and 16 from your files the same as the Lyrita disc? If so, where is the Cooke symphony from that disc ? ;D
- Jeffrey, you mention "one of the English suites" . How many are there, and which one is that in Johan's treasure chest Brian files ?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2009, 08:47:57 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 06, 2009, 06:10:54 AM
Questions:

- Johan, are the symphonies 6 and 16 from your files the same as the Lyrita disc? If so, where is the Cooke symphony from that disc ? ;D
- Jeffrey, you mention "one of the English suites" . How many are there, and which one is that in Johan's treasure chest Brian files ?

-Yes. You want me to upload the Cooke?

-There are 5 English Suites. Jeffrey is referring to a recording of the Fifth, which resides in my Brian files treasure chest...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 07, 2009, 04:20:23 AM
Oh, I'd love to have the Cooke, Johan. ARG gives it a great review (along with the Brian symphonies).

And of course I had noticed about the English Suite in your vault (it's not too hermetic ;D).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 07, 2009, 04:37:22 AM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 07, 2009, 04:20:23 AM
Oh, I'd love to have the Cooke, Johan. ARG gives it a great review (along with the Brian symphonies).

And of course I had noticed about the English Suite in your vault (it's not too hermetic ;D).

Indeed!  ;)

(Upload later today.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on June 07, 2009, 11:19:50 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on June 06, 2009, 08:47:57 AM
-Yes. You want me to upload the Cooke?

-There are 5 English Suites. Jeffrey is referring to a recording of the Fifth, which resides in my Brian files treasure chest...

Although, as Johan says, there were 5 English Suites one of them (No. 2 'Night Portraits' from 1914) is lost. The First and Fifth have been recorded: No. 1 by the City of Hull Youth Symphony Orchestra(Cameo Classics LP/Campion CD) and No.5 'Rustic Scenes' by the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra(CBS LP).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 07, 2009, 03:18:02 PM
Thanks, Colin!

It's so gratifying to rub shoulders with scholars and gentlemen like you guys (the Brian Brigade !!).  :-*
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on June 07, 2009, 03:28:56 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 07, 2009, 03:18:02 PM
Thanks, Colin!

It's so gratifying to rub shoulders with scholars and gentlemen like you guys (the Brian Brigade !!).  :-*

I blush at your most generous comment :-[
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 07, 2009, 10:52:04 PM
Quote from: Lilas Pastia on June 07, 2009, 03:18:02 PM
It's so gratifying to rub shoulders with scholars and gentlemen like you guys (the Brian Brigade !!).  :-*

"Look at my chest", the courteous Brianic gentleman said, "it's slightly bigger, due to one Cooke."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on June 07, 2009, 11:08:37 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on June 07, 2009, 10:52:04 PM
"Look at my chest", the courteous Brianic gentleman said, "it's slightly bigger, due to one Cooke."

Never trust a cooke who is too lean.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lilas Pastia on June 08, 2009, 05:45:06 PM
A lean cook knows self-control ;). I'll check out if this 'cooke' is lean or has enough flesh on its bones!

Johan, you're my hero  :-*
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on June 09, 2009, 03:30:23 AM
Cross-referencing with another thread.......I wonder how many are aware that the American composer and conductor Bernard Herrmann conducted Brian's Comedy Overture "Doctor Merryheart" in the USA round about 1940 with the CBS Symphony Orchestra.

In addition to being a huge supporter of the exiled British composer Richard Arnell Herrmann was a passionate advocate of a lot of other British composers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on June 20, 2009, 12:20:42 AM
The 7th symphony really packs a punch, doesn't it? The final half of the first movement is incredible. It makes me wonder at what point Brian became a "tough cookie" (or even more of one)? My previous favourite symphony - No.27 - is much more inaccessable than No.7, which is more conventionally dramatic/melodic than I had recalled. I presume this is why his 1, 6-9* tend to be the most acclaimed/admired - at some point after 9 he went into wilder terrain, but when? 0:)

I must restate my admiration (after a 'Now Listening' thread post) for this stupendous CD, a real backbone of the Brian discography:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/d3/30/88ea53a09da08e723a955110.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Havergal-Brian-Symphonies-Tinkers-Wedding/dp/B00006YX75/ref=cm_cmu_pg__header)

Edit: Although I do wonder whether this is based on the greater availability of recordings of these workers...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 20, 2009, 12:50:40 AM
Quote from: Lethe on June 20, 2009, 12:20:42 AM
It makes me wonder at what point Brian became a "tough cookie" (or even more of one)? (...) I presume this is why his 1, 6-9 tend to be the most acclaimed/admired - at some point after 9 he went into wilder terrain, but when? 0:)

Quote from: Jezetha on June 05, 2009, 11:52:23 PM
I agree - there is no 'tailing off'. I do think the first 17 symphonies are all of them extremely varied, a variedness which decreases after that. But the man was already 85! So there are among the final fifteen a few symphonies I could, perhaps, live without (21, 26, even 29, which MM regards as a great piece, but which is IMO slightly formulaic). But even among those symphonies there are moments I cherish. The Cello Concerto inhabits the soundworld of the 'greyer' later symphonies, whereas the much earlier Violin Concerto is Brian in glorious technicolor.

So, as Malcolm Macdonald was the first to notice, from No. 18 onwards Brian turns 'classical' and his soundworld becomes drier. But listen to Symphony No. 31 on your 'stupendous' CD, Sarah, and see of what he was capable in his 92th (!) year. The conclusion of that work is very very powerful. No. 31 and No. 27 are quite similar in style. You should like it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on June 20, 2009, 01:05:14 AM
I'll admit that 31 didn't make quite such an impression as the 7th on this listen, but I was kind of expecting that - it does share the same "tough" qualities of 27 - they have the same basis as the earlier symphonies, but everything has been stripped back. This includes memorable themes, which become almost fragmentory, like sunbursts through clouds before swiftly moving on...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 20, 2009, 09:48:58 AM
Quote from: Lethe on June 20, 2009, 01:05:14 AM
I'll admit that 31 didn't make quite such an impression as the 7th on this listen, but I was kind of expecting that - it does share the same "tough" qualities of 27 - they have the same basis as the earlier symphonies, but everything has been stripped back. This includes memorable themes, which become almost fragmentory, like sunbursts through clouds before swiftly moving on...

Yes. The man was extremely old. That kind of ellipsis seems to go with a 'late style'. There is a fitful recollection of fullness, of life, being played inside an aged head. I wonder though, as I write this, how Elliott Carter compares...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on June 20, 2009, 10:33:38 AM
This makes me recall something from way back: when I was initially getting into Brian and Googling as much information as I could find online, I encountered a post on another forum (a video game one, of all places) where someone was talking about the late symphonies. They had a similar opinion, but found this restless quality to the music as representing anger - I am not sure that I can detect any overriding mood from them, they seem almost deliberately looking towards regions more abstract than that. It's far more innovative than many composers who have been labeled "modernist"...

Edit: I just ran into this pic of him on Google image search! I hadn't seen it before:

(http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/3114/brianold.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 20, 2009, 12:21:03 PM
Quote from: Lethe on June 20, 2009, 10:33:38 AM
This makes me recall something from way back: when I was initially getting into Brian and Googling as much information as I could find online, I encountered a post on another forum (a video game one, of all places) where someone was talking about the late symphonies. They had a similar opinion, but found this restless quality to the music as representing anger - I am not sure that I can detect any overriding mood from them, they seem almost deliberately looking towards regions more abstract than that. It's far more innovative than many composers who have been labeled "modernist"...

Hm, anger, eh? I recall Malcolm Macdonald writing about the codas of several of the later symphonies, that Brian seems to 'finish the work in a spasm of anger'. Aggression is certainly part of Brian's style, there is a lot of testosterone there. If, MM asserts, the Eighth is the 'quintessential' Brian symphony, then tenderness (often expressed in violin solos) and violence (explosions of brass and percussion) are Brian's extremes. So - anger is there, certainly.

P.S. I know the picture. It's Brian around 1910 (I think).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Renfield on July 19, 2009, 01:58:53 PM
In case this has not been noted elsewhere, Testament are soon 'officially' releasing (among other things) the 1966 Boult 'Gothic'!

[Bottom of this page. (http://testament.co.uk/default.aspx?PageID=3)]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on July 19, 2009, 03:41:10 PM
Good on them, it's an amazing performance and its sales will more than recoup the costs for licencing.

Seems that they really are scraping the barrel with Giulini's Bruckner, though. How many live performances that don't in any way compare to the DG recordings do we need? :P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Renfield on July 19, 2009, 04:26:03 PM
Quote from: Lethe on July 19, 2009, 03:41:10 PM
Seems that they really are scraping the barrel with Giulini's Bruckner, though. How many live performances that don't in any way compare to the DG recordings do we need? :P

Well, they might be less unexceptional than the others. :P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2009, 05:03:15 PM
Quote from: Renfield on July 19, 2009, 01:58:53 PM
In case this has not been noted elsewhere, Testament are soon 'officially' releasing (among other things) the 1966 Boult 'Gothic'!

[Bottom of this page. (http://testament.co.uk/default.aspx?PageID=3)]

Just received the Havergal Brian Society Newsletter. The near future looks exciting indeed for Brianites, with two new CDs coming soon and a performance of the 'Gothic' in Brisbane later this year.

Also this:

Plans continue to advance for a recording of Cello concerto by Dutton Records, though currently it is not known who the cellist will be. Further there are also plans for recording of English Suite 3, Symphony 10 and the Concerto for orchestra also on Dutton for release in 2010.

And I intend, though I am by no means very rich, to put my money where my mouth is for this:


The Boult Gothic : Special appeal to members offers a chance for Glory and Fame!  


At a time when the fifth performance of the Gothic
Symphony is imminent in Brisbane, your Committee
are pleased to announce that we have come to an
agreement with the highly-regarded Testament label for the
reissue of the first professional performance of the Gothic
Symphony, under Sir Adrian Boult in 1966.  Testament are
licensing the original BBC stereo master tapes in order to
achieve the best quality reproduction of this landmark
recording. To fund this, the HBS has guaranteed between
£2000 to £3000 pounds to cover the costs of remastering,
notes and booklet design.  The reissue of this historic
performance has been a long-standing aim of the Society.
Although we have rarely made specific appeals to members, it
occurred to your Committee that this would be an excellent
project to offer for personal sponsorship and we have
therefore decided to launch a special appeal in its support.  
Accordingly, members are offered the opportunity to be
mentioned by name in the CD booklet as having contributed
to this prestige reissue, with the wording:

“Testament and the Havergal Brian Society are grateful to the
following individual members of the Society, whose generosity has
made this reissue possible : Principal Benefactors:  (names in
alphabetical order)  Benefactors: (names in alphabetical order)”.
 

We are suggesting that those contributing up to £49.99
should be listed in the booklet as “Benefactors” and those
contributing £50 or more as “Principal Benefactors”.  Should
the appeal result in an oversubscription, all who have sent
money by the deadline will be acknowledged as sponsors of
this project and any excess funding will be put towards the
Society’s next planned recording project of a new disc of
orchestral works. We hope that this appeal will fire
members’ enthusiasm as an innovative way of achieving a
wide personal involvement with this important project and
that it will therefore encourage a high number of you to
contribute.  Donors who have already signed a Gift Aid
Declaration will of course be bringing additional benefit to
the Society.
To take this opportunity of being one of the acknowledged
sponsors of the reissue of the Boult Gothic, please complete
the form below (or the same information on a piece of paper)
and return it to the Chairman at the address given.  Because
of the need to pass the list of names to Testament in good
time, the appeal will run for two months only, with a closing
date of ten days after the next Newsletter is sent out, to allow
for that to contain a final reminder.


I intend to contribute £50.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on July 20, 2009, 10:51:22 AM
Great news.   ;D

Nice piece of 'benifacting' there.   :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on July 20, 2009, 11:02:41 AM
Lovely!

Separately . . . I am imagining a Brian enthusiast who lives in Vermont, pronouncing his name like Hey, Virgil!  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2009, 11:36:15 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 20, 2009, 11:02:41 AM
Lovely!

Separately . . . I am imagining a Brian enthusiast who lives in Vermont, pronouncing his name like Hey, Virgil!  ;)

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 21, 2009, 02:31:48 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on July 19, 2009, 05:03:15 PM
Just received the Havergal Brian Society Newsletter. The near future looks exciting indeed for Brianites, with two new CDs coming soon and a performance of the 'Gothic' in Brisbane later this year.

Also this:

Plans continue to advance for a recording of Cello concerto by Dutton Records, though currently it is not known who the cellist will be. Further there are also plans for recording of English Suite 3, Symphony 10 and the Concerto for orchestra also on Dutton for release in 2010.

And I intend, though I am by no means very rich, to put my money where my mouth is for this:


The Boult Gothic : Special appeal to members offers a chance for Glory and Fame!  


At a time when the fifth performance of the Gothic
Symphony is imminent in Brisbane, your Committee
are pleased to announce that we have come to an
agreement with the highly-regarded Testament label for the
reissue of the first professional performance of the Gothic
Symphony, under Sir Adrian Boult in 1966.  Testament are
licensing the original BBC stereo master tapes in order to
achieve the best quality reproduction of this landmark
recording. To fund this, the HBS has guaranteed between
£2000 to £3000 pounds to cover the costs of remastering,
notes and booklet design.  The reissue of this historic
performance has been a long-standing aim of the Society.
Although we have rarely made specific appeals to members, it
occurred to your Committee that this would be an excellent
project to offer for personal sponsorship and we have
therefore decided to launch a special appeal in its support.  
Accordingly, members are offered the opportunity to be
mentioned by name in the CD booklet as having contributed
to this prestige reissue, with the wording:

"Testament and the Havergal Brian Society are grateful to the
following individual members of the Society, whose generosity has
made this reissue possible : Principal Benefactors:  (names in
alphabetical order)  Benefactors: (names in alphabetical order)".
 

We are suggesting that those contributing up to £49.99
should be listed in the booklet as "Benefactors" and those
contributing £50 or more as "Principal Benefactors".  Should
the appeal result in an oversubscription, all who have sent
money by the deadline will be acknowledged as sponsors of
this project and any excess funding will be put towards the
Society's next planned recording project of a new disc of
orchestral works. We hope that this appeal will fire
members' enthusiasm as an innovative way of achieving a
wide personal involvement with this important project and
that it will therefore encourage a high number of you to
contribute.  Donors who have already signed a Gift Aid
Declaration will of course be bringing additional benefit to
the Society.
To take this opportunity of being one of the acknowledged
sponsors of the reissue of the Boult Gothic, please complete
the form below (or the same information on a piece of paper)
and return it to the Chairman at the address given.  Because
of the need to pass the list of names to Testament in good
time, the appeal will run for two months only, with a closing
date of ten days after the next Newsletter is sent out, to allow
for that to contain a final reminder.


I intend to contribute £50.


Very exciting news Johan - I'm especially pleased to see Symphony No 10 at last having a CD release with a professional orchestra - it is one of the best.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: secondwind on July 21, 2009, 04:03:39 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on May 30, 2009, 01:40:49 AM
Bumping Brian is always welcome... If Brian is new to you, why not try these symphonies for starters and see what you make of them:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/0jf2yvnm2tj/Brian 8.mp3

http://www.mediafire.com/file/wijgqyozmjm/Brian Symphony No. 6 LPO Myer Fredman.mp3

http://www.mediafire.com/file/nn0axd1ichy/Brian 17 (BBC).mp3

They're all short. No. 8 is a battle between light and dark, yes and no, Brian at his most binary; No. 6 is Brian's most lyrical symphony; and No. 17 is fast, dramatic and violent.
I've just listened to Brian Symphony No. 6 via your link.  Thanks for sharing and thanks for an introduction to a new (to me) composer.  I'm looking forward to hearing more.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2009, 12:26:54 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 21, 2009, 02:31:48 AM
Very exciting news Johan - I'm especially pleased to see Symphony No 10 at last having a CD release with a professional orchestra - it is one of the best.

Yes, No. 10 is certainly one of the best and a work that is very special to me. It has been great having that Loughran performance ever since 1973, but after more than 35 years it is high time for another interpretation, in better sound and with, yes, a professional orchestra (at last).

Another quote from the HBS Newsletter (my italics):

There is a proposal, now that the part-songs are being type
set for a 2 CD with Mark Ford and the Purcell Singers to
record these complete for Toccata Classics.  He reflected that
currently things are looking very good in regards to the
quality and number of projects, funds available to support
these but that donations are always welcome. The committee
is also pursuing the historic Boult recording of The Gothic
being released on CD and specific donations towards this
project would be very welcome, and any direct sponsors may
be able to be listed and thanked within the CD. The Harry
Newstone 1959 recordings of Symphonies 11 and 12 and
Doctor Merryheart are hopefully going to be issued due to the
lapsing of the copyright after 50 years and Dutton are keen to
support this.
  In regards to Naxos there are three further
reissues (and they have been currently reissuing the Marco
Polo recordings at one a year). There are no current plans for
new recordings and that while new recordings will be
supported other companies will be pursued for non
symphonic works as well as supporting other companies who
show interest in recording Brian.

Quote from: secondwind on July 21, 2009, 04:03:39 AM
I've just listened to Brian Symphony No. 6 via your link.  Thanks for sharing and thanks for an introduction to a new (to me) composer.  I'm looking forward to hearing more.

Good news. Please report back after listening to the others - these three are quite different, though they are all as Brianic as they come.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on July 21, 2009, 12:47:18 PM
All these happenings in the past year have been incredible. Just before the Lyrita reissue of 6 and 16, pretty much the only thing on the Brian horizon for the forseeable future was a dubiously likely Australian performance of No.1 - but now all this! :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 22, 2009, 09:41:44 AM
This is fantastic news! Really looking forward to the cello concerto, and all the symphony releases. Exciting.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 26, 2009, 06:37:40 AM
Released this month (Boult's performance of The Gothic Symphony). Johan/Jezetha will be delighted!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on October 26, 2009, 07:29:02 AM
Hmm... Just got the Naxos recording of the violin concerto and am not sure that it is as immediately likeable and accessible as people are making out here... Obviously I'll need to listen a few more times, but it's just not what I was expecting!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 26, 2009, 08:33:12 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 26, 2009, 06:37:40 AM
Released this month (Boult's performance of The Gothic Symphony). Johan/Jezetha will be delighted!

Do you mean released already? I don't see it listed at either amazon or JPC.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: listener on October 26, 2009, 10:55:19 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on March 03, 2008, 08:50:51 AM
That double LP - is that the pirated recording of the Boult 'Gothic', on Aries?

yes, according to MacDonald's "Symphonies of H.... vol.1"   (appendix 3)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: listener on October 26, 2009, 11:49:47 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on June 10, 2007, 04:59:59 AM
The bird-scare, long drum and thunder sheet are marked in the instrumentarium, but don't appear in the score; it's conjectured that they are to be played in the final climax[es] of the piece.

A relatively common instrument like the celesta, believe it or not, only has a very brief appearance in the score, too.

The bird scare is in the score, 2 bars before cue 421 (Lento Adagio - "Non confundar" a cappella ) and the bar before 427.   The first appearance is marked "bird scares"  (plural!  need more than one player??)

That's it, above the organ chord.  Sorry, I was worried about cracking the binding so I did not force it open more to show the left side with the instrumentation.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 26, 2009, 02:05:17 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 26, 2009, 08:33:12 AM
Do you mean released already? I don't see it listed at either amazon or JPC.

Sarge
In 3-4 weeks time.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 27, 2009, 12:57:41 AM
Quote from: Guido on October 26, 2009, 07:29:02 AM
Hmm... Just got the Naxos recording of the violin concerto and am not sure that it is as immediately likeable and accessible as people are making out here... Obviously I'll need to listen a few more times, but it's just not what I was expecting!

I'm not that keen on the VC either - but have you tried symphonies 8 or 9? These ARE great works IMHO.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on October 27, 2009, 11:51:48 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 26, 2009, 06:37:40 AM
Released this month (Boult's performance of The Gothic Symphony). Johan/Jezetha will be delighted!

The other Johan will be delighted, too! (Back again after four months of reclusion - moved into a new house ;-)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 28, 2009, 01:29:02 AM
Quote from: Christo on October 27, 2009, 11:51:48 PM
The other Johan will be delighted, too! (Back again after four months of reclusion - moved into a new house ;-)
Of course, I forgot that the two of you constituted the entire membership of the Havergal Brian Society  ;D

Actually, I'm delighted too - so there are at least three members - almost as big as the JBS Society  ;)

Nice to see you back in circulation again.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on October 28, 2009, 04:38:41 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 27, 2009, 12:57:41 AM
I'm not that keen on the VC either - but have you tried symphonies 8 or 9? These ARE great works IMHO.

No.8 is the first Brian I heard and remains my favourite. Great piece with a capital G.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2009, 11:39:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 26, 2009, 06:37:40 AM
Released this month (Boult's performance of The Gothic Symphony). Johan/Jezetha will be delighted!

He is (belatedly)!!

Re the Violin Concerto - I think it's one of Brian's most beautiful works. But the first movement isn't easy - there is so much happening, you can lose your way. Of course, Brian compensates by the simplicity of some of the themes, but the textures can be rather rich (I won't say 'thick'...) The second and third movements aren't that difficult. The second is a moving Passacaglia with some violent passages and the final movement is very English and very straightforward (IMO). In all three movements there are dreamy, magical moments, when the music seems to come to a complete standstill. Yes, I like the VC very much. And the playing by Bisengaliev (Christo and I saw him playing the piece in 1995 - that's where we met...) is absolutely superb.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on October 28, 2009, 11:56:56 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on October 28, 2009, 11:39:45 AM
And the playing by Bisengaliev (Christo and I saw him playing the piece in 1995 - that's where we met...) is absolutely superb.

Indeed. We were young, in those days. 8) And live Marat Bisengaliev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marat_Bisengaliev)'s playing was even better than in the recording, I seem to recall.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2009, 11:59:05 AM
Quote from: Christo on October 28, 2009, 11:56:56 AM
Indeed. We were young, in those days. 8) And live Marat Bisengaliev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marat_Bisengaliev)'s playing was even than in the recording, I seem to recall.  :)

Yes, his live performance was even better. I remember it well, even at my age...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 28, 2009, 01:50:29 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on October 28, 2009, 11:39:45 AM
He is (belatedly)!!

Re the Violin Concerto - I think it's one of Brian's most beautiful works. But the first movement isn't easy - there is so much happening, you can lose your way. Of course, Brian compensates by the simplicity of some of the themes, but the textures can be rather rich (I won't say 'thick'...) The second and third movements aren't that difficult. The second is a moving Passacaglia with some violent passages and the final movement is very English and very straightforward (IMO). In all three movements there are dreamy, magical moments, when the music seems to come to a complete standstill. Yes, I like the VC very much. And the playing by Bisengaliev (Christo and I saw him playing the piece in 1995 - that's where we met...) is absolutely superb.

OK, I shall have another battle with the Violin Concerto.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2009, 03:26:46 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 28, 2009, 01:50:29 PM
OK, I shall have another battle with the Violin Concerto.

Excellent, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on February 09, 2010, 10:12:51 AM
           (http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/12608_coverpic.jpg) (http://www.classicstoday.com/images/sp_art/p3s3.gif)

David Hurwitz's verdict on Classicstoday:

QuoteHavergal Brian actually was an interesting and characterful composer, not that you'd know it from this disgusting train wreck of a performance. Yes, it's "legendary", and it enjoyed a previous existence on, among other things, a dim Aries pirate LP that led one to hope that the original tapes sounded better. They don't, at least not such as would make any difference. The limited stereo broadcast sonics (from 1966) can't begin to clarify the score's textural complexities, while Boult, never the most incisive of conductors, holds the reins slackly and seems not to know the difference between melody and accompaniment--to the extent that one can tell, that is. He gets through the first three orchestral movements by playing them relatively quickly and hoping for the best, but when the choruses come in the result is simply mud, a totally chaotic mess of impenetrable noise. If you have the Marco Polo (now Naxos) recording, featuring most of the population of Bratislava, you will experience a much cleaner and more powerful (though far from perfect) sense of what the music is about. Life is too short for this.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Renfield on February 09, 2010, 10:22:48 AM
I'm sure the population of Bratislava would be as offended as Sir Adrian Boult's ghost.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on February 09, 2010, 10:32:03 AM
Even in the un-remastered version I heard, the Boult was finer. The sound wasn't that bad - the choral transparency isn't perfect, but so much of the Marco Polo recording was imperfect as well... I'd say that the two compliment each other well, although I'd sacrifice ten Mahler recordings at the altar to the music gods to hear it in modern sound with a modern orchestra.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2010, 08:17:34 AM
Quote from: Christo on February 09, 2010, 10:12:51 AM
           (http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/12608_coverpic.jpg) (http://www.classicstoday.com/images/sp_art/p3s3.gif)

David Hurwitz's verdict on Classicstoday:


Life is too short to read such rubbish. I know the Boult Gothic, the Schmidt Gothic and the Lenard Gothic back to front. Boult has always impressed me the most. As Sarah says, even in its unremastered guise you can hear the quality of his interpretation (I still have to hear the Testament). Remember - there was and is no performing tradition. That not everything is perfect, of course! The choruses in the Te Deum aren't transparant-sounding, perhaps they never will be, because that is part of Brian's (flawed?) intention. But to say Boult 'seems not to know the difference between melody and accompaniment' is the cheap jibe of a hack.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2010, 05:54:02 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 12, 2010, 08:17:34 AM

Life is too short to read such rubbish. I know the Boult Gothic, the Schmidt Gothic and the Lenard Gothic back to front. Boult has always impressed me the most. As Sarah says, even in its unremastered guise you can hear the quality of his interpretation (I still have to hear the Testament). Remember - there was and is no performing tradition. That not everything is perfect, of course! The choruses in the Te Deum aren't transparant-sounding, perhaps they never will be, because that is part of Brian's (flawed?) intention. But to say Boult 'seems not to know the difference between melody and accompaniment' is the cheap jibe of a hack.

Lenard wins on sound quality of the recording but Boult wins the gold medal for interpretation...except for the Vivace third movement. I think Lenard nails it. Boult's leap across the harmonic universe at the climax just deosn't raise the goosebumps; sounds anemic next to Lenard. Bottomline: both recordings are essential for Brian fanatics.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 14, 2010, 05:46:38 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2010, 05:54:02 AM
Lenard wins on sound quality of the recording but Boult wins the gold medal for interpretation...except for the Vivace third movement. I think Lenard nails it. Boult's leap across the harmonic universe at the climax just deosn't raise the goosebumps; sounds anemic next to Lenard. Bottomline: both recordings are essential for Brian fanatics.

Sarge


I know the climax of the Vivace is your all-time 'greatest moment in music', Sarge. No goosebumps there is a very bad sign indeed... But one thing that always bothers me about the Lenard (and has detracted me from full enjoyment) - the bizarre xylophone solo in the build-up is incomplete, it simply stops along the way. In the Boult it's all there... I'll listen again to the two recordings and see how they compare. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 14, 2010, 12:35:18 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 14, 2010, 05:46:38 AM

I know the climax of the Vivace is your all-time 'greatest moment in music', Sarge. No goosebumps there is a very bad sign indeed... But one thing that always bothers me about the Lenard (and has detracted me from full enjoyment) - the bizarre xylophone solo in the build-up is incomplete, it simply stops along the way. In the Boult it's all there... I'll listen again to the two recordings and see how they compare.

I hadn't noticed that. I'll listen again too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on February 14, 2010, 08:01:30 PM
obsessing over xylophone solos?,...hmmm...

... is the Gothic for me?,hmmm...

Still haven't heard a Brian symphony,... yet!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on February 15, 2010, 12:46:10 AM
I think that we need to discuss the wind machine  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on February 15, 2010, 12:50:29 AM
Snips - If you like Mahler, give the Gothic a try - but the rest are in an increasingly different style, especially after the 4th. The best way in is the budget EMI twofer with 7-9, etc.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2010, 01:07:42 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 15, 2010, 12:46:10 AM
I think that we need to discuss the wind machine  ;D


I'm game!  :D


Quote from: Lethe on February 15, 2010, 12:50:29 AM
Snips - If you like Mahler, give the Gothic a try - but the rest are in an increasingly different style, especially after the 4th. The best way in is the budget EMI twofer with 7-9, etc.


Indeed. But why not do this - download these three symphonies, snyprrr, and see what you make of them (and listen out for the wind machine in No. 10!):
 
8th: http://www.mediafire.com/?0jf2yvnm2tj
9th: http://www.mediafire.com/?pngtzmyzlyg
10th: http://www.mediafire.com/?xztyigy2wjz
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Daverz on February 15, 2010, 02:27:12 AM
It may have come up somehwere in these 19 pages, but I was ready to give up on Brian until I heard his Symphony No. 6 "Sinfonia Tragica" on Lyrita.  That's what I'd suggest as a starting place for anyone curious about him.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on February 15, 2010, 03:52:20 AM
Quote from: Daverz on February 15, 2010, 02:27:12 AM
It may have come up somehwere in these 19 pages, but I was ready to give up on Brian until I heard his Symphony No. 6 "Sinfonia Tragica" on Lyrita.  That's what I'd suggest as a starting place for anyone curious about him.

Did you hear Symphony No 8? My favourite and quite approachable.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on February 15, 2010, 07:29:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 15, 2010, 12:46:10 AM
I think that we need to discuss the wind machine  ;D

BRING-IT-ON!! :P :P :P



Quote from: Lethe on February 15, 2010, 12:50:29 AM
Snips - If you like Mahler, give the Gothic a try - but the rest are in an increasingly different style, especially after the 4th. The best way in is the budget EMI twofer with 7-9, etc.

Sounds like Myaskovsky, perhaps (not the music, the trajectory)?



I will listen to those downloads, thank you.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2010, 08:44:06 AM
Quote from: Daverz on February 15, 2010, 02:27:12 AM
It may have come up somehwere in these 19 pages, but I was ready to give up on Brian until I heard his Symphony No. 6 "Sinfonia Tragica" on Lyrita.  That's what I'd suggest as a starting place for anyone curious about him.


Okay, let's give the non-converted a chance...


Symphony No. 6, 'Sinfonia Tragica': http://www.mediafire.com/?wijgqyozmjm (http://www.mediafire.com/?wijgqyozmjm)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on February 16, 2010, 10:50:51 PM
Hi Jezetha,
Have you found a recording of Brian's Concerto for Orchestra yet? If you remember it was the one orchestral piece available that I couldn't send you, having lost it on a faulty tape.

I did manage to get those Prokofiev rarities from Russia but some new unknown works have turned up for me to worry about hearing >:(. Life is one big adventure. :)
best
Steven.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 17, 2010, 05:02:21 AM
My Gothic arrived today  :)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2009/BrianGothicBoult.jpg)

It's been a long wait. I heard about Boult's recording in the early 70s. Been waiting impatiently ever since. (Jezetha, of course, provided a fine stopgap in the form of mp3s.) Speaking of thunder machines and bird-scares, there's a pic of the percussionists in the booklet:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2009/img047.jpg)

The sound of the recording is far from perfect but much better than I thought it would be. (Hurwitz's score is ridiculous). I'd give it a 9/6 (I still don't like Boult's Vivace. The instrumental balance seems odd...or maybe I'm just used to the sound of the Marco Polo recording).

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on February 17, 2010, 05:09:08 AM
Thanks for the pic. Weird how modern day young hipsters aspire to look exactly like that guy in the left.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 17, 2010, 05:13:04 AM
Thanks for that great picture, Sarge! As for the Vivace - I heard the Boult first, so perhaps it is what I am used to. But don't get me wrong - I do like Lenard's version, too. Boult is more impatient to keep the music moving, whereas Lenard sometimes takes his time, bringing out more of the instrumental detail. And of course, his is the better recording... Yes, we need both, as you say.


Quote from: Lethe on February 17, 2010, 05:09:08 AM
Thanks for the pic. Weird how modern day young hipsters aspire to look exactly like that guy in the left.


Indeed. I noticed that too. I see young people now wearing glasses with thick frames that were considered terribly old-fashioned for a very long time!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 17, 2010, 05:20:27 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on February 17, 2010, 05:13:04 AM
As for the Vivace - I heard the Boult first, so perhaps it is what I am used to.

Yes. I heard Lenard's Vivace well over a hundred times before hearing Boult. Lenard was deeply imprinted  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Daverz on February 17, 2010, 06:19:02 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 15, 2010, 03:52:20 AM
Did you hear Symphony No 8? My favourite and quite approachable.

I have an EMI twofer with that one on the to-listen pile.  I'll move it up in the queue.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 17, 2010, 06:24:26 AM
Quote from: Lethe on February 17, 2010, 05:09:08 AM
Thanks for the pic. Weird how modern day young hipsters aspire to look exactly like that guy in the left.

Yes, the Michael Caine look:

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/images/multimedia/sixties/bailey_caine.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 17, 2010, 11:42:50 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on February 16, 2010, 10:50:51 PM
Hi Jezetha,
Have you found a recording of Brian's Concerto for Orchestra yet? If you remember it was the one orchestral piece available that I couldn't send you, having lost it on a faulty tape.

Alas, no joy, Steven. But I am still very grateful for all the things you could send me - I have uploaded them to Mediafire and they have been downloaded scores of times.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on June 30, 2010, 01:51:35 PM
My Brian collection isn't that large:

-Symphony No. 1 "Gothic," Ondrej Lenard, Slovak Philharmonic Orch. and Choir, Slovak Radio Symphony, Naxos
-Symphony No. 2, Tony Rowe, Moscow Symphony, Naxos
-Symphony No. 3, Lionel Friend, BBC Symphony, Hyperion
-Symphonies Nos. 4 & 12, Adrian Leaper, Slovak Philharmonic, Naxos
-Violin Concerto, Symphony No. 18, The Jolly Miller Overture, Lionel Friend, BBC Scottish Symphony, Naxos

My favorite work by Brian that I've heard so far is his "Gothic" symphony. This is really an outstanding work. To say this wasn't ambitious is certainly an understatement!

I think Brian's day will come sooner or later. I would like to hear a major orchestra or should I say orchestras perform the "Gothic." This work does need a dedicated conductor not that the conductor on the Naxos wasn't dedicated, but there just needs to be a new recording. I would like to hear Simon Rattle conduct this work with both the Berliners and maybe they could team up with another German orchestra like the Hamburg Philharmonic (who have performed admirably well under Simon Young) or the Frankfurt Radio Symphony or the Munich Philharmonic or the Cologne Radio Symphony (who thanks to Wand and Bertini are more well-known). The record company I would like to record this massive score would be either Deutsche Grammophon, Chandos, BIS, or Ondine. Any of these labels would do nicely.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on August 14, 2010, 06:19:21 AM
Hello to everyone from a newbie.

Happy memories of the days when I was a member of the HBS. Especially that evening back in - 1990 was it? - when I sat in Birmingham Town Hall to hear the "Orchestra of the Composers' Platform" play Brian's 3rd Symphony. This was memorable partly because of the music, but mainly because it's the only concert I've ever been to where the orchestra significantly outnumbered the audience!

Just been listening to HB's 11th today; first time in a long time. (I've been off on an excursion into heavy rock and blues over the last few years; classical has taken a back seat to Hound Dog Taylor and Iron Maiden!)

What a great little work No. 11 is! A deeply thoughtful adagio to kick things off, then a childlike and jovial central movement, and a bustling little march to finish. Fairly lighthearted and easy on the ear for Brian, this could be a nice introduction to his symphonies for the uninitiated.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on August 14, 2010, 02:28:56 PM
Excellent to have another Brianite on board, welcome to the forum! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 15, 2010, 01:11:44 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on August 14, 2010, 06:19:21 AM
Hello to everyone from a newbie.

Happy memories of the days when I was a member of the HBS. Especially that evening back in - 1990 was it? - when I sat in Birmingham Town Hall to hear the "Orchestra of the Composers' Platform" play Brian's 3rd Symphony. This was memorable partly because of the music, but mainly because it's the only concert I've ever been to where the orchestra significantly outnumbered the audience!

Just been listening to HB's 11th today; first time in a long time. (I've been off on an excursion into heavy rock and blues over the last few years; classical has taken a back seat to Hound Dog Taylor and Iron Maiden!)

What a great little work No. 11 is! A deeply thoughtful adagio to kick things off, then a childlike and jovial central movement, and a bustling little march to finish. Fairly lighthearted and easy on the ear for Brian, this could be a nice introduction to his symphonies for the uninitiated.

Yes, welcome to the forum Klaatu from another former HBS member. Symphony No 11 is indeed one of the best along with, IMHO, Nos 1,2, three (than number doesn't work on my keypad!)6,7,8,9, 10 and 16. If I could only choose one for my desert island it would be No 8.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on August 15, 2010, 12:17:20 PM
Desert island Brian?

Hmmmm......

The Gothic, 6, 8, 10 and 16 are my shortlist.....

10 and 16 are my short short list.......

Don't ask me to choose!

About time we had a fully professional recording of No 10, one of HBs greatest scores. Doesn't his music sound much more convincing when played & interpreted well? - the CD reissue of Myer Fredman's 6 and 16 being a prime example; probably the best recorded version of any Brian works.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on August 15, 2010, 10:38:42 PM
I finally listened to a mvmt from the No.10, I believe, on YouTube, with the Leicheshestshire (oops!, sorry :-[), is that it? The famous one,...well, anyway, I think I'd like HB a lot,... very autumnal, in the vigorous way,... definitely reminds me of a Pastoral Pettersson,...

ooo, haha, that's making me laugh :D,...Pastoral Pettersson, haha

anyhow, I'll have to listen to some Amazon snippets.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on August 16, 2010, 03:32:43 AM
Leicheshestshire?

Is that anywhere near Worchesshestershershire where I live - or is it over by Gloucheschestershetchestershire?

Brian himself was born, of course, in Stoke-on-Trent, which is in Staffordshestershirechestershetshire.
A lot of great composers come from Stoke - Lemmy from Motörhead, for example. (Who can forget that towering masterpiece The Ace of Spades?) Slash from Guns 'N' Roses. And Robbie Williams.

Anyway, hope you enjoy listening to HB. If you want a really well-played, well-recorded and approachable piece, try HB's 6th on the Lyrita CD with Myer Fredman conducting. It's one of the few occasions where HB gets quite tuneful!

The 10th is a great piece. It seems to sum up the old curmudgeon's whole worldview in less than 20 minutes. Love the "storm", the plaintive violin solo, and that extraordinary chord at the end. The Leicestershire (that's it!) Schools' Symphony Orchestra make a very creditable stab at this work, and do themselves proud. But surely it's way, way beyond time that we had a fully professional orchestra, with a conductor sympathetic to Brian's idiom, record this symphony. Preferably with a pre-recording live performance at the Henry Wood Proms!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on August 16, 2010, 03:59:29 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on August 16, 2010, 03:32:43 AM
Leicheshestshire?
Hehe, it's better than how Callas pronounced it - li-chester if I recall correctly :D

You have inspired me to relisten to the 6th and 16th on that Lyrita CD. I have somehow allowed those works to be overshadowed by my excitement at discovering Arnold Cooke's 3rd on the same disc.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on August 16, 2010, 11:02:32 AM
Hope you enjoy 6 and 16, Lethe.

They are brilliantly played and recorded, but take a bit of getting into - the 6th less so, because of its lyrical heart. Here's a review I posted on the Amazon website and the final paragraph is particularly relevant:

5.0 out of 5 stars

Two of Billy Brian's finest

The original Lyrita LP of Symphonies 6 and 16 was my first introduction to Havergal Brian, and I'm grateful that the recording is now available on CD.

What we have here is one of Brian's most approachable symphonies (No 6), paired with one of his greatest (No 16).
The sixth, "Sinfonia Tragica", is redolent of Irish mists and ancient Celtic battles. The prominence of the harp in its first section adds to this Celtic flavour. In some ways it has an atmosphere similar to Vaughan Williams' sixth, with a gloriously lyrical tune at its heart, surrounded by violence, conflict and tragedy. The percussion-driven final section brings to mind shield-walls and battleaxes, and reminds me of two other (widely disparate) examples of great British music - parts of Arthur Bliss's superb ballet suite "Checkmate", and the album "Ours is the Kingdom" by the excellent heavy-metal band Forefather.(Especially the opening track, appropriately named "The Shield-Wall".)

Technically the musicianship is top-notch; however I agree with reviewer R. A. Howe that more soaring passion could have been injected into the work's lyrical peaks - after all, Brian doesn't write Big Tunes too often and conductors should wallow in them a bit!

Number 16 is, for me, Brian's greatest symphony next to the "Gothic" (No 1) - yet these two works couldn't be more different; the "Gothic" is a gigantic, labyrinthine structure demanding unprecedented choral and orchestral forces, whilst the 16th is all over in under 20 minutes. Yet No. 16 feels immense; an enormous amount happens within its six interlinked sections - the brooding, mysterious introduction; the surging impetus of the allegro; the arrival of one of Brian's famous "moments of stillness" where the orchestra is reduced to a walking bass line on plucked strings; the crackpot fugue; the very brief but surprisingly poignant adagio section, and last but certainly not least the barbarously powerful coda, possibly Brian's most convincingly triumphant ending. This Symphony was composed while Brian was reading Herodotus' account of the Battle of Thermopylae and that coda has a whiff of sheer bloody defiance about it - bringing to my mind the words of King Leonidas before the battle: "Eat a hearty breakfast, boys, for tonight we dine in Hell!"

The LSO under Fredman have the measure of the piece; one can possibly imagine a bit more fire and drama here and there but overall it's a fine account of a symphony that takes some "getting into", but which grabs you by the nether regions once it has worked its way into your system.

Calum MacDonald's highly readable and perceptive notes are a great asset in getting to grips with this curmudgeonly composer. (His three-volume study of Brian's symphonies is similarly excellent.)

The companion-piece on this disc is Arnold Cooke's Third Symphony. A far more conventional creation than either of the Brian works, this is a representative of that infamous genre the "Cheltenham Symphony". But it's a superior one; the two outer movements have a convincing drive and energy whilst the central slow movement is haunted and restless rather than insipid and sentimental. I enjoyed this piece more than I thought I would and it's given a polished performance by the LSO under Nicholas Braithwaite.

A must-have disc, then, for anyone interested in Brian's music. But newcomers are warned, the old duffer takes some getting used to. I disliked this music on first hearing (my musical God at the time was Mahler) but it slowly infiltrated my cranium until I had to agree with Robert Simpson: "As we learn our way into Brian's music it becomes more and more significant until we discover ourselves face to face with a great composer." Nuff said!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 16, 2010, 12:59:40 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on August 16, 2010, 03:32:43 AM
Brian himself was born, of course, in Stoke-on-Trent, which is in Staffordshestershirechestershetshire.
A lot of great composers come from Stoke - Lemmy from Motörhead, for example. (Who can forget that towering masterpiece The Ace of Spades?) Slash from Guns 'N' Roses. And Robbie Williams.

Did you write the book? (http://www.amazon.de/People-Stoke-Trent-Williams-Darwin-Wedgwood/dp/1157718965/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books-intl-de&qid=1281992148&sr=1-3)  ;D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51aCUsi2GUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on August 16, 2010, 01:32:11 PM
Mea non culpa, Sarge!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 20, 2010, 12:12:43 PM
Very exciting new historical Dutton release (super-budget) includes Havergal Brian's 9th and 11th symphonies - two of the best.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: drogulus on August 20, 2010, 01:10:23 PM
    I've listened to the 7th more than any other Brian, and it's the happiest, fun-est symphony of the 20th century, which by my recollection was not exactly a barrel of laughs musically or any other wise.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on August 20, 2010, 01:44:02 PM
Quote from: drogulus on August 20, 2010, 01:10:23 PM
    I've listened to the 7th more than any other Brian, and it's the happiest, fun-est symphony of the 20th century, which by my recollection was not exactly a barrel of laughs musically or any other wise.

Not one I have - is this one that has a commercial recording?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: drogulus on August 20, 2010, 01:56:43 PM
Quote from: Guido on August 20, 2010, 01:44:02 PM
Not one I have - is this one that has a commercial recording?

     Yes, a very good one with Mackerras and the Royal Liverpool PO. It's available with this 2 CD set:

     (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/d3/30/88ea53a09da08e723a955110.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: drogulus on August 20, 2010, 02:09:32 PM

     Another one I really love is the flute symphony, No. 27, which I think is sourced from a radio broadcast from the late '70s. It's MacKerras again, this time with my favorite orchestra, the Philharmonia.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on August 20, 2010, 05:18:31 PM
I really dig the 27th, perhaps in part due to the unusually good performance it gets in that broadcast. I wish somebody would licence it to CD, as I'd like to own a copy.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on August 21, 2010, 04:31:48 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 20, 2010, 12:12:43 PM
Very exciting new historical Dutton release (super-budget) includes Havergal Brian's 9th and 11th symphonies - two of the best.

Thanks for alerting me to this one, Vandermolen.

Dutton really are the dogs b******s when it comes to releasing both new and long-forgotten recordings of the long-forgotten minor works of major British composers and the major works of long-forgotten British composers.

( :-X What the heck did I just say? )

Let's hope this could be a prelude to Dutton finding and releasing some more archive recordings of HB symphonies - maybe they could fill the gaps in the abandoned Marco Polo cycle.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on October 21, 2010, 06:16:12 AM
I checked on arkivmusic and there are only two recordings of the Gothic symphony in print.  I thought this was a famous symphony?! ???  What gives?  Does everyone listen to the one on naxos then?  And it's good right?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: MN Dave on October 21, 2010, 06:20:28 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 21, 2010, 06:16:12 AM
I checked on arkivmusic and there are only two recordings of the Gothic symphony in print.  I thought this was a famous symphony?! ???  What gives?  Does everyone listen to the one on naxos then?  And it's good right?

It's only famous on GMG.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2010, 07:51:45 AM
Quote from: MN Dave on October 21, 2010, 06:20:28 AM
It's only famous on GMG.  ;D

And only in the Brian threads. Elsewhere, utterly unknown. Seriously, only a few of us have actually heard the work.

Quote from: DavidW on October 21, 2010, 06:16:12 AM
I checked on arkivmusic and there are only two recordings of the Gothic symphony in print.  I thought this was a famous symphony?! ???  What gives?  Does everyone listen to the one on naxos then?  And it's good right?

Good enough...only it's my opinion that one needs both Lenard and Boult. But then, I'm crazy for the Gothic...or perhaps, just crazy  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on October 21, 2010, 08:16:57 AM
I listened to my first Brian Havergal today. Eighteenth Symphony, only 14 minutes long. It was a nice work, although I haven't gone mad and subscribed to this thread yet.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: MN Dave on October 21, 2010, 08:17:40 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 21, 2010, 08:16:57 AM
I listened to my first Brian Havergal today. Eighteenth Symphony, only 14 minutes long. It was a nice work, although I haven't gone mad and subscribed to this thread yet.  :D

Shun the thread!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on October 21, 2010, 08:48:34 AM
Haha Brian!  I was going to search for Brian, and then I thought of you ::) so I added Gothic.  Now of course if you change your title to Gothic Brian I'll be totally screwed for future searches! :D :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on October 21, 2010, 08:49:39 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 21, 2010, 07:51:45 AM
Good enough...only it's my opinion that one needs both Lenard and Boult. But then, I'm crazy for the Gothic...or perhaps, just crazy  ;D

Sarge

Cool beans Sarge! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on October 21, 2010, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 21, 2010, 08:48:34 AM...so I added Gothic.

Oh it's truly a great symphony, but it's so massive. My suggestion, not that you need any help, but is to take it a bit slow at first. There's so many ideas that are being bombarded at you that you just have to take two steps back and breathe a minute. It's a beautiful work and is really my favorite favorite Brian symphony.

Hope you enjoy it! Which one did you get? The one on Naxos (originally on Marco Polo) or Boult's recording?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on October 21, 2010, 08:05:13 PM
I went with naxos. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: greg on October 21, 2010, 08:19:18 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 21, 2010, 06:16:12 AM
I checked on arkivmusic and there are only two recordings of the Gothic symphony in print.  I thought this was a famous symphony?! ???  What gives?  Does everyone listen to the one on naxos then?  And it's good right?
If it weren't for GMG, I would just know it as "the longest symphony ever recorded." It was mentioned Mahler's 3rd is "the longest symphony in the repertoire," which I guess implies that Brian 1st is hardly ever performed.


Quote from: Brian on October 21, 2010, 08:16:57 AM
I listened to my first Brian Havergal today. Eighteenth Symphony, only 14 minutes long. It was a nice work, although I haven't gone mad and subscribed to this thread yet.  :D
Man, I could fit about 4 or 5 Brian symphonies on one CD... (actually, I have several like this)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on October 21, 2010, 08:20:48 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 21, 2010, 08:05:13 PM
I went with naxos. :)

Excellent choice. There are some flaws with that recording (the microphone placements in the second part being one of them), but it is remarkable that such a project came together. The liner notes are also quite good, so be sure to check those out.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 13, 2010, 11:17:52 PM
Hi, I've just joined the forum. As my name implies I'm a British music fanatic - I wonder if anybody could point me in the direction of recordings of Brian's Symphonies 21, 22, 24 and the Elegy (1954). I followed the link to Jezetha's wonderful mp3 emporium earlier in this thread, but these works aren't included. Any help gratefully received!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 14, 2010, 05:34:46 AM
Quote from: albion on December 13, 2010, 11:17:52 PM
I wonder if anybody could point me in the direction of recordings of Brian's Symphonies 21, 22, 24 and the Elegy (1954). I followed the link to Jezetha's wonderful mp3 emporium earlier in this thread, but these works aren't included. Any help gratefully received!

They aren't? Really? I'm sure that's where I found 22 and 24. In any case I uploaded the mp3s to Rapidshare. You can download here:

http://rapidshare.com/files/436878541/Brian_22.mp3

http://rapidshare.com/files/436880825/Brian_24.mp3

21 was once available on CD:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2010/brian1021.jpg)

You might try looking in the usual places (Ebay, Amazon) for a used copy.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 14, 2010, 10:16:38 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 14, 2010, 05:34:46 AM
I uploaded the mp3s to Rapidshare. You can download here:

http://rapidshare.com/files/436878541/Brian_22.mp3

http://rapidshare.com/files/436880825/Brian_24.mp3

Many thanks for providing these links - I've checked Jezethas's list again (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=191b3b8d4da3c14f8c9e7c56ba37815ff04eac5398a24e6c (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=191b3b8d4da3c14f8c9e7c56ba37815ff04eac5398a24e6c)) and I think they've gone from there. Now to try and hunt down No.21!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on December 14, 2010, 01:51:39 PM
Hi Albion.

As far as Brian 21 and 22 are concerned, check Youtube - someone has posted both symphonies there (although No 21 is split into four sections.)

Also on Youtube is the 1970s documentary "The Unknown Warrior" which first introduced me to Brian's music in my teenage years. Essential viewing!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 15, 2010, 07:08:19 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on December 14, 2010, 01:51:39 PM
Hi Albion.

As far as Brian 21 and 22 are concerned, check Youtube - someone has posted both symphonies there (although No 21 is split into four sections.)

Also on Youtube is the 1970s documentary "The Unknown Warrior" which first introduced me to Brian's music in my teenage years. Essential viewing!

Thanks again for all these helpful links - I'm planning to have a Havergal Brian Christmas (well, there'll be nothing on the television worth watching), working through as much as I can chronologically, aided by Malcolm Macdonald's three-volume survey. To put out the begging-bowl again, please could anybody help with a recording of the 'Symphonic Poem' Elegy (1954)? It was performed by the BBC Northern SO under Brian Wright in December 1978.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 15, 2010, 07:23:41 AM
What we need is a recording of Symphony No 10 by a professional orchestra. The Unicorn CD, which I have is great but I'd love to hear this work done by one of the big London orchestras for example, or the RLPO.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 15, 2010, 07:51:35 AM
Quote from: albion on December 15, 2010, 07:08:19 AM
Thanks again for all these helpful links - I'm planning to have a Havergal Brian Christmas (well, there'll be nothing on the television worth watching), working through as much as I can chronologically, aided by Malcolm Macdonald's three-volume survey. To put out the begging-bowl again, please could anybody help with a recording of the 'Symphonic Poem' Elegy (1954)? It was performed by the BBC Northern SO under Brian Wright in December 1978.

I'll upload Elegy for you. Not immediately though: Mrs.Rock is currently hogging all our bandwidth. I'll try later tonight.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on December 15, 2010, 09:00:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 15, 2010, 07:23:41 AM
What we need is a recording of Symphony No 10 by a professional orchestra. The Unicorn CD, which I have is great but I'd love to hear this work done by one of the big London orchestras for example, or the RLPO.

Couldn't agree more! The question is, who would conduct? Myer Fredman made a great job of 6 and 16; he'd be a great choice.

Perhaps Dutton Vocalion could be persuaded to produce another of their excellent discs, with a professionally-played Brian 10 alongside 3 or 4 other shortish works by neglected Britons?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 15, 2010, 12:50:40 PM
Here's the link to Elegy

http://rapidshare.com/files/437157389/Brian_Elegy.mp3


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2010, 01:47:09 PM
Hello, everyone! It's been a very long time... I'm glad to see people are finding my Brian folder useful. It's strange 'Elegy' has disappeared from the list, because I'm quite sure I uploaded it. Oh well, Sergeant Rock has stepped into the breach... I'm excited at the prospect of the Gothic performance in Brisbane. And I can't wait to see the DVD about the whole saga of getting this piece performed at all.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 15, 2010, 02:05:26 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 15, 2010, 01:47:09 PM
Hello, everyone! It's been a very long time... I'm glad to see people are finding my Brian folder useful. It's strange 'Elegy' has disappeared from the list, because I'm quite sure I uploaded it. Oh well, Sergeant Rock has stepped into the breach... I'm excited at the prospect of the Gothic performance in Brisbane. And I can't wait to see the DVD about the whole saga of getting this piece performed at all.

Hey, dude! Great to see you here again. It's been too long. How is the book coming?

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2010, 02:16:47 PM
Hi, Sarge! Well, the book's the reason I've disappeared off the radar... What can I tell you - last Saturday was the presentation, in Amsterdam, of a collection of short stories to which I have contributed: my first book publication. The big novel I'm finishing (around 800 pages at the moment) I'm going to publish in two parts. Part 1 will appear next year, part 2 a year later. Several publishers have shown interest. Here is a nice link, where you can see me written about and photographed... http://www.rnw.nl/suriname/article/surinaamse-schrijver-van-nu-durft-meer (http://www.rnw.nl/suriname/article/surinaamse-schrijver-van-nu-durft-meer) There is also an interview (around 4:51 - me).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2010, 02:31:20 PM
Re Brian's Tenth - there will be a new recording, coupled with the Concerto for Orchestra, to be released by Dutton somewhere in the near future. I'll have to look through my HBS Newsletters to see which orchestra and conductor... Here it is:

"Four three-hour recording sessions for the forthcoming
Dutton disc of Brian's Symphonies 10 and 30, Concerto
for orchestra and English suite 3 took place at 1000 and
1430 each day on Wednesday 15 and Thursday 16
September.  Martyn Brabbins was conducting the Royal
Scottish National Orchestra."


The recording will be issued first quarter 2011.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 15, 2010, 09:52:30 PM
Wow, what wonderful news. A few years ago all seemed gloomy on the Brian front, and now suddenly a Gothic reissue, a Gothic performance, various interesting discs appearing or soon to! :)

Also, welcome back Jezetha, and well done on the book - so many people enjoy the idea of writing, but never get around to finishing anything. I see that you have the killer instinct! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 15, 2010, 10:48:05 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 15, 2010, 12:50:40 PM
Here's the link to Elegy

http://rapidshare.com/files/437157389/Brian_Elegy.mp3


Sarge
Sarge, many thanks for this!

Quote from: Jezetha on December 15, 2010, 02:31:20 PM
Re Brian's Tenth - there will be a new recording, coupled with the Concerto for Orchestra, to be released by Dutton [...] first quarter 2011.
This is fantastic news - can't wait to hear the Concerto. Dutton has advanced in leaps and bounds over the past few years to become the company for interesting British repertoire - as with Lyrita in days of old, it is always exciting to anticipate what will be included in their next set of releases.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 16, 2010, 07:29:09 AM
I am celebrating the return of Jezetha (great news about the book - how exciting!) as as  much as the forthcoming CD of Havergal Brian Symphony No 10 on Dutton.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on December 16, 2010, 08:45:52 AM
Jezetha's return has vastly cheered up a pretty dismal few days! What a sight for sore eyes  :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2010, 08:48:03 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 15, 2010, 02:16:47 PM
Hi, Sarge! Well, the book's the reason I've disappeared off the radar... What can I tell you - last Saturday was the presentation, in Amsterdam, of a collection of short stories to which I have contributed: my first book publication. The big novel I'm finishing (around 800 pages at the moment) I'm going to publish in two parts. Part 1 will appear next year, part 2 a year later. Several publishers have shown interest. Here is a nice link, where you can see me written about and photographed... http://www.rnw.nl/suriname/article/surinaamse-schrijver-van-nu-durft-meer (http://www.rnw.nl/suriname/article/surinaamse-schrijver-van-nu-durft-meer) There is also an interview (around 4:51 - me).

Wait! Why is this buried in the Havergal Brian thread? Are only Brianiacs entitled to the news!? ; )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2010, 09:06:51 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 16, 2010, 08:48:03 AM
Wait! Why is this buried in the Havergal Brian thread? Are only Brianiacs entitled to the news!? ; )

It's a very select club...you have to prove that you've listened to the entire Gothic at least 12 times before allowed news of Jezetha.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2010, 10:54:55 AM
Don't know if I'm ready for that Rite of Passage . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on December 16, 2010, 11:13:29 AM
It has never seriously occurred to me to listen to a Brian symphony, and I think the reason is simply that there are too many of them.  It seems impossible that the man had enough to say to fill dozens of symphonies, so I am confronted with the task of separating the wheat from the chaff, and it has to be mostly chaff.  I can't summon the enthusiasm for it.  Similar problem with Weinberg. When you read notes to a Weinberg piece it often includes a statement to the effect that "it is unknown if the work was ever performed."  But since I ended up hearing a Weinberg piece more or less by accident and liked it I am over the barrier.


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2010, 11:18:18 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 16, 2010, 11:13:29 AM
It has never seriously occurred to me to listen to a Brian symphony, and I think the reason is simply that there are too many of them.  It seems impossible that the man had enough to say to fill dozens of symphonies . . . .

Of course you do say seems . . . it's something we could not know without giving it a listen.  And neither have I summoned the will to investigate Brian.  (I'm still feeling a bit disappointed in [relatively] recent sallies into the symphony cycles of Milhaud and Pettersson.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2010, 11:18:40 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 16, 2010, 11:13:29 AM
It has never seriously occurred to me to listen to a Brian symphony, and I think the reason is simply that there are too many of them.  It seems impossible that the man had enough to say to fill dozens of symphonies, so I am confronted with the task of separating the wheat from the chaff, and it has to be mostly chaff.  I can't summon the enthusiasm for it.

You apply the same argument to avoid listening to Mozart (41 symphonies) or Haydn (104)?

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2010, 11:22:32 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2010, 11:18:40 AM
You apply the same argument to avoid listening to Mozart (41 symphonies) or Haydn (104)?

I shan't answer for Scarps (I cannot), but I'll adopt the question.

I genuinely enjoyed listening to the start of Haydn's cycle (though I lost discipline, and stopped half-way-ish, nor have I taken it back up yet). Personally, I don't think I could make time for the Mozart juvenilia; but I have no quarrel to the man who can.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2010, 11:35:03 AM
Thanks for all the lovely comments! First I'm making coffee and then I'll check this thread to see if there is anything I'd like to add...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on December 16, 2010, 11:39:03 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2010, 11:18:40 AM
You apply the same argument to avoid listening to Mozart (41 symphonies) or Haydn (104)?

Not quite the same.  Mozart and Haydn were the most well known composers of their era, and their works were widely performed and admired.  If you want to listen to music of that period you start with Mozart and Haydn and it widely known what their principal works are.  In Brian we have someone who toiled away writing symphony after symphony after symphony, 32 in all, without any of it ever being performed.  Presumably whatever original ideas he had were diluted in hours and hours and hours of music.  I imagine compositional diarrhea. 

Beyond that, I have a similar problem with Haydn to some extent.  I have the Dorati cycle, which I am trying to make my way through, but when I am done I don't think I will ever listen to 90% of it again.  The London, Paris, and a few noteworthy early symphonies will serve me.  For Mozart, 41, 40, 39, 38, 35, 34, 33, 32 are interesting, the rest are interchangeable.   


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2010, 11:46:43 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 16, 2010, 11:22:32 AM
I shan't answer for Scarps (I cannot), but I'll adopt the question.

I genuinely enjoyed listening to the start of Haydn's cycle (though I lost discipline, and stopped half-way-ish, nor have I taken it back up yet). Personally, I don't think I could make time for the Mozart juvenilia; but I have no quarrel to the man who can.


Well, at least you have listened to some symphonies by both composers despite their enormous output. I understand avoiding early Mozart (although I personally find the pre-K.183 symphonies delightful and listen to them often) but Brian began composition on his first symphony, the Gothic, in 1919 when he was 43 years old and finished it eight years later. All his symphonies are works of maturity so Scarps can't use that excuse. And despite the sheer amount of symphonies, choosing a few to sample isn't difficult because only a handful have had truly great performances committed to disc. The EMI twofer (7, 8, 9 and 31) plus the Naxos Gothic will give one a good taste of the composer for very little outlay.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2010, 11:49:43 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 16, 2010, 11:39:03 AMPresumably whatever original ideas he had were diluted in hours and hours and hours of music.

How can you possibly presume that when you haven't even heard any of his music? The man's creative life lasted nearly 75 years! Compared to Haydn or Bach his output is miniscule.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on December 16, 2010, 11:53:06 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2010, 11:46:43 AMAll his symphonies are works of maturity so Scarps can't use that excuse.

I wasn't aware that I need to provide an excuse for every composer I don't listen to.   ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2010, 11:56:30 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on December 16, 2010, 11:53:06 AM
I wasn't aware that I need to provide an excuse for every composer I don't listen to.   ;D

Dude, you invaded this thread in a most troll-like manner so you better have an excuse  ;D

Sarge, locking and loading the heavy weapons
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2010, 11:59:56 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2010, 11:46:43 AM
Well, at least you have listened to some symphonies by both composers despite their enormous output. I understand avoiding early Mozart (although I personally find the pre-K.183 symphonies delightful and listen to them often) but Brian began composition on his first symphony, the Gothic, in 1919 when he was 43 years old and finished it eight years later. All his symphonies are works of maturity so Scarps can't use that excuse. And despite the sheer amount of symphonies, choosing a few to sample isn't difficult because only a handful have had truly great performances committed to disc. The EMI twofer (7, 8, 9 and 31) plus the Naxos Gothic will give one a good taste of the composer for very little outlay.

Thanks, Sarge.  Of course, this composer makes a regular practice of listening to music he's never listened to before . . . so there's no reason not to make that new music Brian at some point.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on December 16, 2010, 12:14:13 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2010, 11:56:30 AM
Dude, you invaded this thread in a most troll-like manner so you better have an excuse  ;D

Sarge, locking and loading the heavy weapons

Yikes!  Well, I did not come with troll-like intentions.  It's not specific to Brian.  Probably 75% of my listening these days is music I have never heard before, but when I see 32 symphonies, I just feel despair.    I might have tried that EMI 2-fer, but it is out of print and scarce.  I will withdraw so you can reestablish an appropriate mood of Brian adulation.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2010, 12:15:02 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on August 14, 2010, 06:19:21 AM
Hello to everyone from a newbie.

Happy memories of the days when I was a member of the HBS. Especially that evening back in - 1990 was it? - when I sat in Birmingham Town Hall to hear the "Orchestra of the Composers' Platform" play Brian's 3rd Symphony. This was memorable partly because of the music, but mainly because it's the only concert I've ever been to where the orchestra significantly outnumbered the audience!

(...)

What a great little work No. 11 is! A deeply thoughtful adagio to kick things off, then a childlike and jovial central movement, and a bustling little march to finish. Fairly lighthearted and easy on the ear for Brian, this could be a nice introduction to his symphonies for the uninitiated.


Hello, Klaatu!


You might have seen me in May 1987 in Birmingham - I was there. I have been a member of the HBS since December 1983. Were you in the hired coach that took all the members from Surrey through London Victoria to B'ham?... As for No. 11, I have a special affection for it, too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2010, 12:48:51 PM
Just a general and personal intro to Brian for those who might be interested...


Havergal Brian's music is idiosyncratic. It isn't easy listening, it doesn't come pre-packaged with reams of persuasive recommendations by the great and the good. There is no performance tradition to speak of. So, in a sense, you're on your own in evaluating this unusual music, hampered too by (many) readings that only scratch the surface of what this music - when performed really well - can express.


Brian wrote 32 symphonies, from 1919 to 1968. He began in his early forties and ended in his early nineties. This journey is fascinating for those receptive to it. Brian was his own man from an early age, but he did develop. Although the first 4 symphonies are on a grand scale, Brian's way of expressing himself is always very laconic, though intense. There is always a lot going on. He loves polyphony and he likes to keep things moving. His music can sound as of written for some film of the mind. Once you are gripped by it, you are gripped for life.


I know all the symphonies and I know them virtually by heart. If I have to choose 'the best', I get into difficulties, because every single one of them has its own unique moments of power and beauty. But if you want to get an idea of what Brian can do, if you want to get a  sense of his range, try symphonies 6, 8, 10 and 16, written between 1948 and 1960. They are an excellent introduction to his very personal style.


http://www.mediafire.com/file/wijgqyozmjm/Brian%20Symphony%20No.%206%20LPO%20Myer%20Fredman.mp3


http://www.mediafire.com/file/0jf2yvnm2tj/Brian%208.mp3


http://www.mediafire.com/file/xztyigy2wjz/Brian%2010.mp3


http://www.mediafire.com/file/i0uuiz32kjd/Brian%20Symphony%20No.%2016%20LPO%20Myer%20Fredman.mp3
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2010, 12:52:13 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 16, 2010, 12:48:51 PM
. . . I know all the symphonies and I know them virtually by heart.

That is really marvelous!  Only judging by the (from this senator's standpoint) obscurity of the composer and scarcity of recordings.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2010, 12:56:27 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 16, 2010, 12:52:13 PM
That is really marvelous!  Only judging by the (from this senator's standpoint) obscurity of the composer and scarcity of recordings.


Well, every symphony has been performed at least once (many for and by the BBC). The past few months especially, I've had all of the symphonies on my mp3 player to give me inspiration!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 16, 2010, 01:28:01 PM
Many thanks to the various members who have provided links and help in obtaining recordings of these great works - please could anybody help with mp3 audio files of:

Symphony 21 (LSO/ Downes, 14/1/69 or LSSO/ Pinkett)

Cello Concerto (Igloi/ Polyphonia/ Boult, 5/2/71)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2010, 01:42:40 PM
Quote from: albion on December 16, 2010, 01:28:01 PM
Many thanks to the various members who have provided links and help in obtaining recordings of these great works - please could anybody help with mp3 audio files of:

Symphony 21 (LSO/ Downes, 14/1/69 or LSSO/ Pinkett)

Cello Concerto (Igloi/ Polyphonia/ Boult, 5/2/71)


I can offer you #21 (LSSO/Pinkett). Watch this space... I don't have the Cello Concerto, BUT - it has been recorded and will be issued in a few months' time.


http://www.mediafire.com/file/2a4nzk4pz9br4az/Brian%2021-I.mp3


http://www.mediafire.com/file/ruvkmegaqui6xc7/Brian%2021-II.mp3


http://www.mediafire.com/file/ibvij45hg1zh1os/Brian%2021-III.mp3


http://www.mediafire.com/file/b2w9u1ladnc6i9t/Brian%2021-IV.mp3
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 16, 2010, 02:12:27 PM
I have just played HB Symphony No 10 (Loughran LSSO) on Unicorn in celebration of both Jezetha's forthcoming book/s and his grand return to the Forum. In his essay on Brian in the Penguin book 'The Symphony; Elgar to the Present Day', Harold Truscott (also the composer of a fine Symphony) wrote of Havergal Brian's 10th symphony that '...the psychological storm that shapes it gives way at length to a mysterious sense of victory, grim and hard-won, but enduring.' A good omen I feel for Jezetha's perseverance.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2010, 02:18:26 PM
Thanks, Jeffrey. It is that quality of dogged perseverance which I have always admired in Brian and which has really inspired me the last 30 years. It will be interesting to see whether I - after completing my 'Gothic' - will also live to a ripe 96, completing another 31 novels in the process!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on December 16, 2010, 03:05:27 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 16, 2010, 12:15:02 PM

Hello, Klaatu!


You might have seen me in May 1987 in Birmingham - I was there. I have been a member of the HBS since December 1983. Were you in the hired coach that took all the members from Surrey through London Victoria to B'ham?... As for No. 11, I have a special affection for it, too.

Hi Jezetha!

Nope, I wasn't on the coach - I was living in Birmingham at the time and drove to the gig solo (well, with my mate Phil).

BTW, thanks for alerting me to the forthcoming release of Brian 10 with the RSNO - great news; knew Dutton would come up trumps!

PS Scarpia -
My advice would be to start with the Lyrita reissue of Brian 6 and 16. Simply because I think they're to date the best played versions of any Brian works. Also because they show the composer at his most lyrical (No 6) and his most impenetrable (No 16) - a work which I hated on first hearing but absolutely love now! (You really have to learn your way into this stuff; No 16 is for me one of HB's very greatest works.)

The added bonus is that if you can't stand the Brian pieces the disc also sports a fine performance of Cooke's 3rd!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on December 16, 2010, 03:36:34 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 16, 2010, 02:18:26 PM
Thanks, Jeffrey. It is that quality of dogged perseverance which I have always admired in Brian and which has really inspired me the last 30 years. It will be interesting to see whether I - after completing my 'Gothic' - will also live to a ripe 96, completing another 31 novels in the process!

Many years!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 16, 2010, 09:16:21 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 16, 2010, 01:42:40 PM

I can offer you #21 (LSSO/Pinkett). Watch this space... I don't have the Cello Concerto, BUT - it has been recorded and will be issued in a few months' time.

Jezetha, thanks very much for sharing these files - now I can begin systematically listening through the entire canon of 32, headphones clamped to head and Macdonald propped up in front of me! Wonderful news about the Cello Concerto - it looks as though it really is going to be a good year for HB!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 16, 2010, 10:04:24 PM
@ Scarpia: I feel that Brian is somewhat insulated from unevenness given his personal situation:

1. Almost totally ignored, so he wrote music for himself rather than to make money
2. His symphonies are so numerous a) because they are rather brief, and b) because he wrote little else towards the end, and had the time to spend on them

But either way, you have a way out: Brian wrote his larger symphonies early in his career, and it was in his later works from No.12+ where he began to produce increasingly concise works at a rapid rate. If you want to put those aside for now, it's still easy to explore his output just from that initial dozen or so - nos.6-10 form something of a core, and sadly this does mean that the EMI twofer is an essential purchase. If you have trouble finding it drop me a PM.

The ones Jezetha linked are great choices.

Quote from: Klaatu on December 16, 2010, 03:05:27 PM
My advice would be to start with the Lyrita reissue of Brian 6 and 16. Simply because I think they're to date the best played versions of any Brian works. Also because they show the composer at his most lyrical (No 6) and his most impenetrable (No 16) - a work which I hated on first hearing but absolutely love now! (You really have to learn your way into this stuff; No 16 is for me one of HB's very greatest works.)

The added bonus is that if you can't stand the Brian pieces the disc also sports a fine performance of Cooke's 3rd!
I can't help but agree with this as well, not only because the two Brian performances on that disc are very well-recorded and played, but also because I love Cooke's 3rd and have blabbed about it endlessly on this forum.

Edit: I think one further way to explain the appeal of the cycle to the converted is its "Lord of the Rings" appeal. Constantly looking for links between the works - debating which form "trilogies" or little integral cycles - generally just exploring the craggy topography is one of the more rewarding classical experiences I've had.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 17, 2010, 01:32:31 AM
Quote from: Lethe on December 16, 2010, 10:04:24 PM

Edit: I think one further way to explain the appeal of the cycle to the converted is its "Lord of the Rings" appeal. Constantly looking for links between the works - debating which form "trilogies" or little integral cycles - generally just exploring the craggy topography is one of the more rewarding classical experiences I've had.


Spot on! It goes even further than that - the First World War inspired both Tolkien and Brian to their central works - LOTR and The Gothic, monuments to the passing of an age. Brian's work is full of marches, battles and mourning, but also full of sometimes bizarre ideas, humour and visionary vistas. Tolkien and Brian both worked ceaselessly on their respective worlds, two men (both of small stature!) from the English Midlands.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 17, 2010, 02:34:42 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 16, 2010, 02:18:26 PM
Thanks, Jeffrey. It is that quality of dogged perseverance which I have always admired in Brian and which has really inspired me the last 30 years. It will be interesting to see whether I - after completing my 'Gothic' - will also live to a ripe 96, completing another 31 novels in the process!

Well, I certainly hope so and I also hope for an English translation too!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on December 17, 2010, 05:22:47 AM
Quote from: Lethe on December 16, 2010, 10:04:24 PM
@ Scarpia: I feel that Brian is somewhat insulated from unevenness given his personal situation:

1. Almost totally ignored, so he wrote music for himself rather than to make money
2. His symphonies are so numerous a) because they are rather brief, and b) because he wrote little else towards the end, and had the time to spend on them

But either way, you have a way out: Brian wrote his larger symphonies early in his career, and it was in his later works from No.12+ where he began to produce increasingly concise works at a rapid rate. If you want to put those aside for now, it's still easy to explore his output just from that initial dozen or so - nos.6-10 form something of a core, and sadly this does mean that the EMI twofer is an essential purchase. If you have trouble finding it drop me a PM.

The ones Jezetha linked are great choices.
I can't help but agree with this as well, not only because the two Brian performances on that disc are very well-recorded and played, but also because I love Cooke's 3rd and have blabbed about it endlessly on this forum.

Edit: I think one further way to explain the appeal of the cycle to the converted is its "Lord of the Rings" appeal. Constantly looking for links between the works - debating which form "trilogies" or little integral cycles - generally just exploring the craggy topography is one of the more rewarding classical experiences I've had.

Ok, now you've got me curious....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on December 18, 2010, 11:29:07 AM
Good news from the HB website :D They now have free downloads of symphonies Nos 8 & 12, go here:  http://www.havergalbrian.org/download.htm
And, it's good news about the Dutton releases  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2010, 12:05:14 PM
Quote from: Hattoff on December 18, 2010, 11:29:07 AM
Good news from the HB website :D They now have free downloads of symphonies Nos 8 & 12, go here:  http://www.havergalbrian.org/download.htm (http://www.havergalbrian.org/download.htm)
And, it's good news about the Dutton releases  :D


Hi, Hattoff! It's good hearing from you. And thanks for that link - I had forgotten about those free downloads, because I listened to them some months ago already. The Eighth especially is very interesting. You can never have too many Brian performances...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 19, 2010, 12:22:33 AM
Some rather unexpected but fantastic news -  Havergal Brian's Gothic symphony is being performed at the Proms July 17, 2011 with the BBC National Orchestra of Wales conducted by Martyn Brabbins!  :o ;D :o ;D :o

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2010, 02:41:59 AM
Quote from: albion on December 19, 2010, 12:22:33 AM
Some rather unexpected but fantastic news -  Havergal Brian's Gothic symphony is being performed at the Proms July 17, 2011 with the BBC National Orchestra of Wales conducted by Martyn Brabbins!  :o ;D :o ;D :o

Where did you read the news? I checked the RAH site and there are no listings for July yet.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 19, 2010, 04:55:52 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2010, 02:41:59 AM
Where did you read the news? I checked the RAH site and there are no listings for July yet.

Sarge

On the musicweb site, under 'notices': http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/DEC10/listing.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/DEC10/listing.htm)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2010, 05:03:23 AM
Quote from: albion on December 19, 2010, 04:55:52 AM
On the musicweb site, under 'notices': http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/DEC10/listing.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/DEC10/listing.htm)

Cool. Do you know when Proms tickets usually go on sale?

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 19, 2010, 05:13:29 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2010, 05:03:23 AM
Cool. Do you know when Proms tickets usually go on sale?

Sarge

Usually around the middle of May.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2010, 05:37:13 AM
GMG member Dundonnell - Colin Mackie - just posted the same news on Facebook. There was an enormous explosion here in Delft, when I read it - inside my head!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2010, 05:47:38 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 19, 2010, 05:37:13 AM
GMG member Dundonnell - Colin Mackie - just posted the same news on Facebook. There was an enormous explosion here in Delft, when I read it - inside my head!!!

This is tremedous news. I honestly thought I'd never hear the Gothic live.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2010, 05:55:45 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2010, 05:47:38 AM
This is tremedous news. I honestly thought I'd never hear the Gothic live.

Sarge


Brianites of all countries, unite! You have nothing to lose but some cash!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2010, 06:00:52 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 19, 2010, 05:55:45 AM
Brianites of all countries, unite!

I'm sure all twelve of us will show up  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2010, 06:01:59 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2010, 06:00:52 AM
I'm sure all twelve of us will show up  ;D

Sarge


;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on December 20, 2010, 01:22:34 AM
THE GOTHIC!! AT THE PROMS!!! NEXT YEAR!!!
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
YEEEE-HAAAHHH!!!!!!!!!!

(Recovering composure).....er.......sorry.........um..........yes, well, that's a bit of jolly good news, isn't it?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2010, 08:26:36 AM
Quote from: albion on December 20, 2010, 07:00:25 AM
I think I might have finally worked it out!


Hi Albion! I was at the movies with my daughter - the latest Narnia installment... 'The Tigers' uploaded would be terrific! I know it and have it, but only on mouldy tape cassettes... If you encounter any problems, mail me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2010, 08:28:50 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on December 20, 2010, 01:22:34 AM
THE GOTHIC!! AT THE PROMS!!! NEXT YEAR!!!
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
YEEEE-HAAAHHH!!!!!!!!!!

(Recovering composure).....er.......sorry.........um..........yes, well, that's a bit of jolly good news, isn't it?


Calm down, dear!


{there was an explosion in Delft, too, when news reached me - inside my head!}
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 20, 2010, 08:33:53 AM
I've finally managed to upload my transcript of Havergal Brian's The Tigers:

http://www.mediafire.com/?fm6zmepcgdcjb (http://www.mediafire.com/?fm6zmepcgdcjb)

3-8 January 1983 (recording) / 3 May 1983 (broadcast BBC Radio 3)
Teresa Cahill (soprano)  Mrs Freebody/Lady 1
Alison Hargan (soprano)  Columbine/Female in car/Lady Stout
Marilyn Hill-Smith (soprano)  Lady 2/Toy seller
Ameral Gunson (mezzo soprano)  Lady 3
Ann Marie Owens (alto)  Costerwoman/Sweetmeat seller
Paul Crook (tenor)  Artist/Bishop/Clergyman 2/Cook 2
Harry Nicoll (tenor)  Constable 1/Pantalon
John Winfield (tenor)  Coster/Clergyman 1/Cook 1/Old clothes seller
Kenneth Wollam (tenor)  Man on elephant/Man in tweeds
Ian Caddy (baritone)  Coster 1/Gentleman 1/Policeman 1
Malcolm Donnelly (baritone)  Colonel Sir John Stout
Henry Herford (baritone)  Gentleman 2
Alan Opie (baritone)  Clergyman 5/Napoleon/Young man
Alan Watt (baritone)  Coster 3/Clergyman 3/Fruitseller/Policeman 2
Norman Welsby (baritone)  Billposterer/Clergyman 4/Elephant keeper/Man's voice/Police sergeant
Richard Angas (bass-baritone)  Alexander the Great/Crier/Constable 2/Guard/Policeman 3
Eric Shilling (bass-baritone)  Officer/Regimental sergeant major/Voices
Denis Wicks (bass)  Coster 2/Clergyman 6/Red Indian
BBC Singers  The Tigers/Crowds
BBC Symphony Orchestra, conductor Lionel Friend
producer Elaine Padmore
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2010, 08:56:20 AM
Excellent, Albion!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 20, 2010, 09:01:47 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 20, 2010, 08:56:20 AM
Excellent, Albion!!!!
Well, given your generosity in sharing your Brian recordings, I figured that one good turn deserves another!  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 20, 2010, 09:05:43 AM
Albion, many thanks for your efforts!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2010, 09:11:03 AM
Listening to 'The Tigers' again - the orchestration remains a miracle of inventiveness.


Edit: two great, purely orchestral pieces, are 13.wma and 14.wma in Albion's folder: Gargoyles and Lacryma. They prefigure 'The Gothic'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 20, 2010, 12:32:06 PM
Quote from: albion on December 20, 2010, 08:33:53 AM
I've finally managed to upload my transcript of Havergal Brian's The Tigers:

http://www.mediafire.com/?fm6zmepcgdcjb (http://www.mediafire.com/?fm6zmepcgdcjb)

3-8 January 1983 (recording) / 3 May 1983 (broadcast BBC Radio 3)
Teresa Cahill (soprano)  Mrs Freebody/Lady 1
Alison Hargan (soprano)  Columbine/Female in car/Lady Stout
Marilyn Hill-Smith (soprano)  Lady 2/Toy seller
Ameral Gunson (mezzo soprano)  Lady 3
Ann Marie Owens (alto)  Costerwoman/Sweetmeat seller
Paul Crook (tenor)  Artist/Bishop/Clergyman 2/Cook 2
Harry Nicoll (tenor)  Constable 1/Pantalon
John Winfield (tenor)  Coster/Clergyman 1/Cook 1/Old clothes seller
Kenneth Wollam (tenor)  Man on elephant/Man in tweeds
Ian Caddy (baritone)  Coster 1/Gentleman 1/Policeman 1
Malcolm Donnelly (baritone)  Colonel Sir John Stout
Henry Herford (baritone)  Gentleman 2
Alan Opie (baritone)  Clergyman 5/Napoleon/Young man
Alan Watt (baritone)  Coster 3/Clergyman 3/Fruitseller/Policeman 2
Norman Welsby (baritone)  Billposterer/Clergyman 4/Elephant keeper/Man's voice/Police sergeant
Richard Angas (bass-baritone)  Alexander the Great/Crier/Constable 2/Guard/Policeman 3
Eric Shilling (bass-baritone)  Officer/Regimental sergeant major/Voices
Denis Wicks (bass)  Coster 2/Clergyman 6/Red Indian
BBC Singers  The Tigers/Crowds
BBC Symphony Orchestra, conductor Lionel Friend
producer Elaine Padmore


As a supplement to the above, there are the six separate movements that Brian orchestrated during 1921-22 before completing the full score of the opera in 1929 (Luxembourg Radio SO/ Leopold Hager, 1981):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Orchestral-Pieces-Tigers/dp/B001UJOZGA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298909447&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Orchestral-Pieces-Tigers/dp/B001UJOZGA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298909447&sr=8-1)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2010, 01:25:34 PM
Here an article about the coming Brisbane performance of the 'Gothic', culled from the pages of the HBS Newsletter I just received: http://bit.ly/hxHP02  (http://bit.ly/hxHP02)


Albion, you made my day! Those performances of the 'Tigers' Suite are really first rate. Thank you!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on December 20, 2010, 01:43:44 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2010, 06:00:52 AM
I'm sure all twelve of us will show up  ;D

Sarge

This reminds me of Dave Hurwitz' old review of the Naxos Gothic (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=8010)...
QuoteHow vividly I remember the initial release of this set on Marco Polo some 15 years ago. There I was, clutching my copy of this legendary work having suffered previously through the hideous sound of a pirate issue of Boult's performance. Standing in line before me at Tower Records, Lincoln Center, was the New York chapter of the Havergal Brian Society. There were about 10 of them, average age about 70, men with bald scalps and lanky shoulder-length white hair hanging limply in the latest Benjamin Franklin style. All wore thick glasses, and a few had conditions that I thought had been cured by the turn of the last century: goiters, a harelip or two, and various poxes and skin diseases. None had credit cards, or a majority of their teeth, but most had, to put in kindly, olfactorily obvious personal hygiene issues.

"Gothic indeed," I thought, putting down my copy and deciding to try mail order. "If this is the core market for this composer, Marco Polo's projected complete cycle is in trouble."

Postscript: the cycle did eventually die, but the Gothic Symphony was, in fact, the best-selling CD in Marco Polo history. (http://www.havergalbrian.org/marcopolo.htm)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2010, 01:50:55 PM
I'll remember to wash.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2010, 02:38:08 PM
Quote from: albion on December 20, 2010, 08:33:53 AM
I've finally managed to upload my transcript of Havergal Brian's The Tigers:

Fantastic! Thank you very much. This is turning out to be a great week for Brianites  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2010, 02:39:27 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 20, 2010, 01:43:44 PMthe best-selling CD in Marco Polo history. (http://www.havergalbrian.org/marcopolo.htm)

Well, that explains why the Brian cycle bogged down and was abandoned. Sad.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2010, 02:41:20 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 20, 2010, 01:50:55 PM
I'll remember to wash.  ;)

I'll bathe...relunctantly (I am retired, you know!) but I refuse to cut my shoulder length white hair!

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2010, 03:01:43 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2010, 02:41:20 PM
I'll bathe...relunctantly (I am retired, you know!) but I refuse to cut my shoulder length white hair!

Sarge
Your white mane will be very distinguished-looking, I don't doubt...


The Musicweb news about the Proms 'Gothic' has been qualified by this statement:


(The veracity of this information may be in doubt. Roger Wright of the BBC refuses to confirm or deny as all information is embargoed until April.)


Even the HBS Committee doesn't seem to know, nor does Malcolm Macdonald say anything (on Facebook, where he's my 'friend'). I think they know, but are obliged to leave the initiative of the formal announcement to the BBC.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 20, 2010, 10:33:00 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 20, 2010, 03:01:43 PM

The Musicweb news about the Proms 'Gothic' has been qualified by this statement:


(The veracity of this information may be in doubt. Roger Wright of the BBC refuses to confirm or deny as all information is embargoed until April.)


Even the HBS Committee doesn't seem to know, nor does Malcolm Macdonald say anything (on Facebook, where he's my 'friend'). I think they know, but are obliged to leave the initiative of the formal announcement to the BBC.

That's fair enough, I suppose! I've already cancelled all other engagements on and around the sacred date so if it doesn't go ahead I'll be heading straight down to South Kensington, where I'll be hiring the largest stage amplification that can be found, and with which I'll be blasting the eardrums of the audience (queueing to hear Beethoven's Choral Symphony) on 17th July with Ondrej Lenard's recording of The Gothic!  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on December 21, 2010, 02:27:02 AM
Many thanks to Albion. I used to have the Tigers on cassette but it deteriorated badly before I could transfer it to CD. The sound quality of the download is surprisingly good :D.
And, hi to Johan.
Steve
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 21, 2010, 02:30:13 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on December 21, 2010, 02:27:02 AM
Many thanks to Albion. I used to have the Tigers on cassette but it deteriorated badly before I could transfer it to CD. The sound quality of the download is surprisingly good :D .
And, hi to Johan.
Steve


Hi, Steve! How's your Dover/Deal book going?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on December 21, 2010, 04:32:12 AM
Hi Johan,
The book came out in the Summer. Look here if you're interested in english beer.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=The+old+pubs+of+deal+and+walmer&x=24&y=24

I am currently working on the newly rediscovered 5 popular songs of Kazakhstan by Prokofiev.

I am pleased to see that your writing is going well. Do you have a link to the short stories?

I am listening to the Tigers right now, I had forgotton how good it was. It is a struggle at first to understand Brian but when you do, you are repaid a thousandfold.
steven
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 21, 2010, 07:07:32 PM
Quote from: Hattoff on December 21, 2010, 02:27:02 AM
The sound quality of the download is surprisingly good :D.

By some miracle, my tapes managed to survive more or less intact (apart from a tiny bit of echo and some distortion) long enough to make it into the CD-transfer age!

Listening to The Tigers, it has always struck me that Brian must have been aware of the Dada movement, at it's peak between 1916 and 1922, and not only by the anti-war stance that both represent. He produced an unprecedented absurdist anti-opera in which, despite some pseudo-heroic posturing by the Colonel, nothing really happens at all. Characters speak in everyday language, others appear only to disappear again, and then there is the peculiarity of that huge dream-like Prologue which completely dwarfs the tiny first act proper (in itself, the Prologue is perhaps one of the most startlingly original things that even Brian created - one of my favourite moments is when Pantalon says of his supposed rival for Columbine's affections "I'll hit him with a carrot").

What is really needed is a full and luxuriously-presented commercial release of this wonderful performance - one of the best and most enterprising that the BBC has ever initiated. We may never see it staged, but then perhaps the visual element is best left to the imagination anyway!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2010, 11:50:35 AM
Courtesy of your good self, Albion, I listened to the whole of 'The Tigers' again yesterday. Whether the 'opera' is successful as an opera is a moot point. What is most striking is the dream logic that informs everything. And the music that follows from that is Brian at his most mercurial and original. I can see him 'working through', in a satirical fashion, World War 1, but also his failed first marriage. Colonel Sir John Stout is for me the protagonist of the opera, not the eponymous regiment. I wonder whether his delusions of grandeur - dreaming about Alexander and Napoleon, amongst others - isn't Brian poking fun at himself at this point in his career when he definitively became a great composer. Your point about Dada is interesting. But I think Brian's satire is intensely English and draws its inspiration from the music hall, Dickens, Hogarth et al. Brian, with his working-class background, takes a swipe at the British class system. He 'hides' in a colonel, who is unhappily married, feels old, and senses a new beginning in the outrageous(ly funny) Pamela Freebody (a very speaking name, that!) His decision, in Act Three, to meet her again tomorrow is - I discovered yesterday - the central decision of the whole opera. After that the music descends into comic pandemonium, as a precursor of the social opprobrium that the colonel's decision will cause him, like it did Brian (who fell in love with the maid, whom he later married, and was divorced by his first wife).


That's my new understanding of 'The Tigers'. For which I have to thank you (indirectly)!


P.S. What Dutton did with 'The Gothic', they might do with 'The Tigers'...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 23, 2010, 12:31:40 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 22, 2010, 11:50:35 AM
Whether the 'opera' is successful as an opera is a moot point. What is most striking is the dream logic that informs everything. And the music that follows from that is Brian at his most mercurial and original. I can see him 'working through', in a satirical fashion, World War 1, but also his failed first marriage. Colonel Sir John Stout is for me the protagonist of the opera, not the eponymous regiment. I wonder whether his delusions of grandeur - dreaming about Alexander and Napoleon, amongst others - isn't Brian poking fun at himself at this point in his career when he definitively became a great composer. Your point about Dada is interesting. But I think Brian's satire is intensely English and draws its inspiration from the music hall, Dickens, Hogarth et al. Brian, with his working-class background, takes a swipe at the British class system. He 'hides' in a colonel, who is unhappily married, feels old, and senses a new beginning in the outrageous(ly funny) Pamela Freebody (a very speaking name, that!) His decision, in Act Three, to meet her again tomorrow is - I discovered yesterday - the central decision of the whole opera. After that the music descends into comic pandemonium, as a precursor of the social opprobrium that the colonel's decision will cause him, like it did Brian (who fell in love with the maid, whom he later married, and was divorced by his first wife).

Some fascinating points. I'm sure you're quite right in seeing much of the 'action' in The Tigers as autobiographical, based either on Brian's frustration with incompetence or frustration with his domestic situation. Regarding the link to Dada, with it's irreverent and surreal 'de-bunking' of art, Brian was perhaps simply a kindred spirit - certainly there is no precedent in British opera for the character or style of his libretto.

Music Hall does play a huge part in The Tigers - from the structuring of an elaborate set of Symphonic Variations on the throw-away song Has anybody here seen Kelly? to a general sense that the regiment are the very embodiment of Fred Karno's Army:

"We are Fred Karno's army,
Fred Karno's infantry;
We cannot fight, we cannot shoot,
So what damn good are we?
But when we get to Berlin
The Kaiser he will say
Hoch, hoch, mein Gott
Vot a bloody fine lot
Fred Karno's infantry."

Perhaps also important is the vivid nature of Brian's own dreams, and the fact that he seems to have been able to recall them in minute detail. Writing to Bantock during the composition of the opera he recounted

"You entered into my dreams this afternoon. Whether it is the medicine or the 'flu I don't know, but I am half asleep and it is always the same when I have had a bad dose of it. But I was at your place at Broadmeadow: from the way I walked about I seemed to own it. I was going up a wide staircase and met the Colonel [H. Orsmond Anderton, friend and biographer of Bantock] coming down in a dressing gown, hair standing straight. I was frightened by his looks. As he passed me he hissed: 'I'm going to have a seesaw on the viola.' I noted the time. An hour afterwards I met you and asked, 'Where's the bathroom?' You pointed to the door and I found it locked. You said: 'Kick it.' I did, and the door slowly opened and the Colonel passed out just as before, in dressing gown and straight hair. I noticed there was a lot of water on the floor. Also there were three large taps. The middle one seemed to have been in use most, so I put my mouth to it and turned the tap [...] I told you what I had done; that I had been drinking water with my mouth to the tap, and the middle tap. You shouted: 'Why, that's the house water!' I shouted: 'O Christ! What makes me feel so drunk?' You said: 'It may be the pitch from the roof or the poison from the leaves in the water.' I then turned on the middle tap, and feathers and leaves flew out. I turned sick as I thought of the rubbish in my stomach. You grew alarmed and went on the roof. Coming down, you said to me seriously, 'It's a dead peacock'. You armed me down the stairs and we passed the Colonel just outside his door - still in his dressing gown and straight hair, addressing an imaginary crowd. He heeded us not but went on addressing the unseen, his hands and arms going, and emphasizing:

I knew he was sold to the devil.
He must be his brother or his heir.
Drunk on this and drunk on that -
He was always drunk.
Now he is drunk on a dead peacock.

And he repeated the word many times, as though caressing it: 'Peacock! Peacock! Peacock!'
Then I awoke. Through the window I saw a sparrow pinching my seeds."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on December 23, 2010, 12:59:24 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 20, 2010, 08:28:50 AM

Calm down, dear!


Yes.....it's only a commercial......
I do apologise; I was quite overcome!

At your suggestion, Jezetha, I've just listened to "Gargoyles" from The Tigers for the first time (MANY thanks for the link, Albion!) and......wow! There's the prototype of the xylophone-led "storm" from the climax of the Gothic's tremendous third movement - AND just listen to the concluding bars of this piece; that's surely the prototype for the magical ending of Symphony No 10!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2010, 02:33:47 PM
@ Albion I think you culled that dream from the pages of the HBS Newsletter. I remember they ran a series, a long time ago, about the Bantock-Brian correspondence. I had forgotten this particular jewel. That Brian had a fecund imagination, bordering on the weird, is very clear!

@ Klaatu 'The Tigers' and the 'Gothic' complement each other. They are the twin products of Brian's earliest maturity as a composer and they both inhabit a very special sphere of feeling, which I don't encounter in any of his later works. Which is not to say the later works are lesser, just different, more circumscribed, perhaps. 'The Tigers' and the 'Gothic' give me a  sense of timeless and boundless exploration. Anything can happen, the music could go on forever.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 23, 2010, 11:46:41 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 23, 2010, 02:33:47 PM
@ Albion I think you you culled that dream from the pages of the HBS Newsletter. I remember they ran a series, a long time ago, about the Bantock-Brian correspondence. I had forgotten this particular jewel. That Brian had a fecund imagination, bordering on the weird, is very clear!

It actually came from Reginald Nettel's Ordeal by Music: The Strange Experience of Havergal Brian (OUP, 1945, the first version of the biography expanded in 1976) which I've just been re-reading. Whenever I reach the final chapter of Ordeal, entitled The Last Phase it gives me something of a thrill to imagine the unprecedented and unexpected torrent of music that Brian was shortly to begin unleashing. It also brings home the tragedy of the loss of so many important full scores, especially By the Waters of Babylon (1903), The Vision of Cleopatra (1907) and Prometheus Unbound (1944).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2010, 12:24:50 AM
Nettel? OK. I read his book a very very long time ago! I remember having the same feeling when I came to the end of the original version. A book that was meant to be a study of an old and forgotten composer, turned out to be only about part of his career!

Here, by the way, are our friends in Brisbane at a 'Gothic' rehearsal - the climax of the Vivace (I don't know how to embed this):


http://www.youtube.com/v/Cl8KwnOmJJA (http://www.youtube.com/v/Cl8KwnOmJJA)

EDIT: Philip Legge says, on Facebook, he "is sorry to have to make the rehearsal samples private, but I acknowledge the need to have these embargoed".

Blast!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 24, 2010, 12:36:45 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 24, 2010, 12:24:50 AM
Here, by the way, are our friends in Brisbane at a 'Gothic' rehearsal - the climax of the Vivace

Many thanks for this link - what a thrill it must be to be part of such a performance - they clearly do have a Xylophone player who is up to the task!

It makes me all the more frenetically excited at the (hopeful) prospect of a Proms outing in July (the first I'll have attended in years)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2010, 12:39:34 AM
Then you'll be frenetically excited the coming months... [it's a cert, don't tell anyone]

Here the opening of the Allegro assai:

http://www.youtube.com/user/phi1ip2#p/a/u/0/lZc5lTCHqek (http://www.youtube.com/user/phi1ip2#p/a/u/0/lZc5lTCHqek)

EDIT: Philip Legge says, on Facebook, he "is sorry to have to make the rehearsal samples private, but I acknowledge the need to have these embargoed".
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 24, 2010, 12:59:06 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 24, 2010, 12:39:34 AM
Then you'll be frenetically excited the coming months... [it's a cert, don't tell anyone]

I'll try to contain my frenzy - wouldn't want to keel over with a coronary before the big day!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 24, 2010, 01:54:49 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 24, 2010, 12:39:34 AM
Here the opening of the Allegro assai:

http://www.youtube.com/user/phi1ip2#p/a/u/0/lZc5lTCHqek
Ooh, there's magic happening there! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2010, 02:47:37 AM
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5130/5287158724_fb4aed6881.jpg)

"Just as the audience started to file in, I snuck over to the highest row of the choral stands up the back of the hall." (taken from a Justin Harrison on Facebook)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on December 24, 2010, 03:25:51 AM
Spellbound by all this, guys...those youtube clips send shivers down me!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2010, 03:30:12 AM
Quote from: Luke on December 24, 2010, 03:25:51 AM
Spellbound by all this, guys...those youtube clips send shivers down me!

Malcolm MacDonald (who was guest of honour) wrote on Facebook something along the lines of 'this orchestra is up for anything'. And it is. Bass soloist Philip Legge told me (also on FB) that the dress rehearsal went even better (he was off stage at the performance).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on December 24, 2010, 03:31:53 AM
I could watch that ginger-afroed xylophonist dude hitting all the right notes all day long!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2010, 03:35:01 AM
Quote from: Luke on December 24, 2010, 03:31:53 AM
I could watch that ginger-afroed xylophonist dude hitting all the right notes all day long!

Yes, he's incredible! There is hope for the human race after all.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on December 24, 2010, 09:33:06 AM
Just back from a long drive across the snowy nighttime wastes of East Anglia. A Gothic-length drive, in fact....the Lenard one, this time. Reeling, still, some thoughts (nothing new here):

1) what an ungrateful bunch we can turn into sometimes, carping at this recording's flaws and forgetting its glories! As I listened to the symphony I was struck with renewed admiration for the work of Lenard and co here, despite fluffs such as the xylophonist makes (see below).... the orchestral commitment and lack of fear is extraordinary in Part I, and as the chorus take centre stage in Part II with those gutsy, oceanic convulsions of praise, throwing themselves into every melismatic paean with such gusto, I can forgive anything. We tend to take this recording for granted now, I think, having lived with it so long, and the Boult , easily available now in a way it wasn't when the Lenard appeared, is often preferred - for its historical importance as well as its musical qualities and the unmistakable, unrepeatable atmosphere of that recording. But note-wise, tuning-wise and so on, the Boult is less accurate than the Lenard, it has to be said...

2) It has to be realised, I think, that this piece will always be well-nigh impossible to record in a wholly acceptable way, just for logistical reasons - with the volume up full blast, I was aware of constant page-turning, for example, because with that many musicians in one space, someone, somewhere, will always be flicking over to the next side! And there's the problem of the large space itself, the echo, the time-lag. Though I think that these factors actually can be heard as part of the piece themselves, and to me part of the sound of The Gothic is that resonant noise of an expanded violin section, multiply divided, playing high and strong in a large space - there's nothing else like it.

3) re that poor xylophonist, let's remember a) that this must be by some distance the hardest and most exposed xylophone solo in classical music, tonal classical at any rate; b) the mistakes are obvious because the solo is composed of arpeggios and scales which reveal mistakes cruelly; c) actually there aren't that many mistakes, really, they are just exposed and d) cut the guy some slack, he's giving everything to the cause, and that is much more in tune with the spirit of the piece than mere accurate note bashing - "Whoever strives with all his might, That man we can redeem" and all that!  ;D

4) Listening again, I find myself once more able to agree with Malcolm Macdonald's assessment of the 1st movement as the weakest, structurally speaking....in theory. I can see the logic. But in practice, I have never felt this movement less than utterly compelling from first to last, structurally very clear, the drastic divisions between sections, which MM thinks go too far, seem to me to be just right, to be pillars - an architectural image he and others use all the time about this piece - that open the movement up like a gateway, saying, 'here are the extremes between which we will explore'. The two haunting, suspended violin soli statements of the second subject, in the exposition and the recap, those moments of ultra-sweet beauty that MM and others fear are too beautiful, are to me islands of such sweetness that they lodge in the memory and provide little glowing moments of structural pointing. I love this movement wholeheartedly, I love its tone - from the first note, the moods might shift dramatically, but the tone is unified, shades of granitic gray, but with an interior sweetness and glow, like a candlight procession through a darkened cathedral (hackneyed image, but still...)

5) the architecture of this piece is just so splendid, the long term shaping that takes the listener on a journey not from Dark to Light, or some such, but a complicated, doubting quest from darkness through mystery, fantasy, conventional jubilation, fear, anguish, hope....it's so marvellously achieved in every way, tonally, motivically,  orchestrally....

6) I know every single note of this piece by heart, every tiniest gesture and resonance - I'm not alone in this, there are many of us even just on GMG who can say the same, it's not a quality of mine, it's a quality of the music. Given its nature as a piece of extraordinary size and length, I think this fact is significant (it's not something I can say of many other comparable pieces which I have listened to at least as much - as Mahler 8, say). It tells me that piece was composed as a unity, despite the scale and the time-frame of composition. Which leads me to...

7) MM thinks the world of The Gothic, clearly, and also thinks that it is something of a special case, set aside from the rest of Brian's work. He's right, of course. He also thinks that it is HB's most important work, his crucial work, his greatest piece.....but not, necessarily, his best piece. Well, I understand this totally, and confronted with symphonies of an even greater maturity and in which the Brian style is more completely there, with no intrusions from elsewhere - things like number 6, 7, 8, which I think is one of the finest symphonies of the century, 16, 27.... - it's hard to say that they are of lesser quality than The Gothic. But, in the final analysis, forgetting musical details, I think The Gothic is HB's finest piece, for the reasons MM says, and also because it is so terrifically inspired, from first note to last. That kind of thing cannot be faked and survives even 'flaws' in the notes themselves - the work burns with intensity for its entire duration, never slacking, and I know of no other piece on this scale or of this rare genre-busting type that does that. Schoenberg tried with Jakobsleiter - and he couldn't sustain it, the piece remained unfinished.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on December 24, 2010, 09:45:21 AM
Thank you, and merry Christmas, Luke!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on December 24, 2010, 09:45:52 AM
The same to you, Mr H!  :)  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2010, 10:15:15 AM
Hi, Luke! Wonderful piece! I was just writing an extended post, when I did something stupid and lost the whole thing... But rest assured - I'll write a reaction to your ideas, assessments and insights. First I'm making coffee... One other thing - I'd like to send your thoughts to MM (with your consent, of course). He should know them. It would be interesting to see whether he has changed his views about the opening movement at all since 1974, when vol. 1 came out... It's a pity you're not a member of the HBS. You could reinvigorate the pages of the Newsletter!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on December 24, 2010, 12:07:11 PM
Quote from: Luke on December 24, 2010, 09:33:06 AM

the tone is unified, shades of granitic gray, but with an interior sweetness and glow, like a candlight procession through a darkened cathedral

One of the joys of perusing this forum is to come across a simile of such aptness that it really enhances the music. Hats off to you, Luke; that's a wonderful gothic-cathedral image - scraps of melody resembling little flickers of golden light across a great immensity of granitic grey. Perhaps a metaphor for the mediaeval age of cathedral-building, with its artistic glories burning like a guttering flame against the darkness - perhaps a metaphor for Brian's time (and our own).

Gosh, it's Christmas Eve, I've had a drop too much port and I'm waxing lyrical..............

Merry Christmas to one and all!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2010, 01:02:35 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on December 24, 2010, 12:07:11 PMMerry Christmas to one and all!
Seconded.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on December 24, 2010, 01:46:41 PM
Thirded, and thanks both!

J, I don't mind you sending Malcolm Macdonald anything you like - only, that isn't much of a thought of mine, and there's no detailed rationale for it at all, as there is behind every word that he writes about Brian. It's merely my own response to the piece, and moreover, one which is probably conditioned by a hefty dose of imprinting, as I listened to this piece so often as a teenager - this movement more than any other, no doubt, due do the sort of 'Luke, stop listening to that racket and come down to dinner' interruption that is common to teenage boys  ;D It's simply that I love this movement, and never felt the total stasis of the second subject, its suddenness, or its extreme beauty, to be a problem, even though I can see perfectly well that, as MM says, to stop dead like that after only a few bars of such a momentum-fuelled opening to such a mammoth work causes troubling formal issues. To me there is one - the muscular D minor opening, kinesis - and the other - the lyrical, vocal D flat music, stasis (reminds me of Tippett's division of musical types, that....). Placed in opposition straightaway although, somehow, as I suggested, sharing the same tone...perhaps that's something acoustic, even, the echoes of the first fading into the second, so that the two do not jar, for me, at all.... At any rate, it's never troubled me, it's just seemed to me like the composer setting out his terms straightaway. The D flat major of the second subject is as drastic a step down, flatwards, as one can get, all wrong at this juncture, in classical terms, but it also = C# and is thus related to E major. When the melody is recapitulated it is in exactly those tonal regions, and we all know where E ends up in this symphony.... And so right at the start we find the seeds of something which will end the symphony.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2010, 02:18:49 PM
I never had any problems with the opening movement, either. MM's first volume preceded my experience of Brian's symphonies. I read his book in 1977, and was already a convert before I got to know the 8th and 9th a year later... The Boult 'Gothic' I only heard in 1982 (iirc) and MM's strictures certainly coloured my listening. The first movement seems 'smaller' than its two successors, and it is also 'simpler' in its binary character of a stark opposition of themes. It also lacks the goal of a real climax. But in its unresolved tension you can sense - half almost beyond the notes, because the music seems to draw its sustenance and materials from some sort of 'atmosphere' Brian inhabited for 8 years, which gives the whole giant work its deep unity -, but you can sense that this movement puts the pieces of the edifice into place. Put differently, this Allegro assai works like a mighty curtain-raiser for the big drama that will begin.

On the issue of the 'Gothic' being Brian's greatest work - perhaps. A lot of his oeuvre is still uncharted territory. What I heard of his opera 'Faust', for instance, belongs to his best music. (Toccata has recorded a CD of orchestral music from Brian's operas 'Turandot' and 'Faust', release date yet to be announced.) But as long as we don't have a complete view, I'll gladly consider the 'Gothic' his biggest masterpiece. It is, as you say, supremely inspired. You enter into the furnace of creativity itself.

I'll see what I'll do then, with your post... But your critique of MM's criticism is good (combined with the added remarks). I suddenly remember there is an analysis by Lionel Pike of the tonal structure of the 'Gothic'. He also sees that connection between the C# and the E with which the symphony ends...

Nuff said. It's late!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Wanderer on December 26, 2010, 12:49:26 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 24, 2010, 02:18:49 PM
Toccata has recorded a CD of orchestral music from Brian's operas 'Turandot' and 'Faust', release date yet to be announced.

I'll be awaiting that with much interest. Thanks for the heads-up!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 26, 2010, 03:32:45 AM
Here are some details regarding the eagerly-awaited first volume of Toccata's marvellous Havergal Brian initiative:

http://www.toccataclassics.com/cddetail.php?CN=TOCC0110 (http://www.toccataclassics.com/cddetail.php?CN=TOCC0110)

With a release date of 17th February, this should coincide with another exciting new disc from Dutton (Symphonies 10 & 30, Concerto for Orchestra and English Suite No.3).

The second Toccata volume is due to contain orchestral extracts from the operas - Symphonic Variations (The Tigers), Preludio Tragico (The Cenci), Nine movements (Turandot); Night Ride of Faust and Mephistopheles (Faust)

What a great year in prospect!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 26, 2010, 03:43:06 AM
Quote from: Albion on December 26, 2010, 03:32:45 AMWhat a great year in prospect!

I hadn't thought of looking there lately. Thanks! The Brian year 2011, indeed! I hope all the new releases and the 'Gothic' performance will help Brian reach 'critical mass' again, to initiate a new Brian 'Renaissance'...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 26, 2010, 05:39:21 AM
Thank you for the link - another immediate buy upon release. I was wondering, has anybody used Toccata's Discovery Club (http://www.toccataclassics.com/discoveryclub.php)? It might be worth it just for the two Brian volumes if the second is released within a year of the first, and there are more than a few interesting books too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on December 26, 2010, 01:37:17 PM
Just listened to the Gothic all the way through for the first time. I am floored. Just floored.

Thanks guys for bringing it to my attention again!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 26, 2010, 01:42:57 PM
Quote from: Guido on December 26, 2010, 01:37:17 PM
Just listened to the Gothic all the way through for the first time. I am floored. Just floored.

Thanks guys for bringing it to my attention again!

The Old Man will be grateful. And now pick yourself up!  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 26, 2010, 01:48:00 PM
Re the three Brisbane vids that are now under embargo - Philip Legge, the uploader (and bass soloist at the performance), says 'the documentary' told him to make them private, i.e. a lady called Veronica Fury who has been making a docu about the whole undertaking the last few years ('The Curse of the Gothic'). But the clips will come back in due course.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on December 26, 2010, 02:19:47 PM
Doesn't sound like a woman to be crossed, Ms Fury....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 26, 2010, 02:33:39 PM
Hell hath no fury like a Fury scorned...

For the Brian diehards - an interview with Toccata Press & Classics boss Martin Anderson about the 'Gothic':

http://www.mediafire.com/file/47u9gbs5gxsy1t4/Interview%20with%20Martin%20Anderson%20about%20Brian%27s%20Gothic.mp3

Martin gets three facts slightly wrong: Brian wrote the 'Gothic' between 1919 and 1927 (not '26); it was Sir Henry Wood, not Sir Thomas Beecham, who suggested to Brian he write a symphony for an orchestra complete in every department; and it was Lichfield Cathedral that was a main inspiration behind the 'Gothic' of the title, not Winchester Cathedral.

And for those who might have missed it, here again a link to an interview with Brian himself, conducted in 1968 by Robert Simpson and Jeffrey Anderson from CBC:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/2nmmhklof2f/Havergal%20Brian%20interview.mp3
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 27, 2010, 05:15:14 AM
Another radio clip from the land of Oz, featuring Alison Rogers, the choir master, and Gary Thorpe, the moving spirit behind the whole venture of mounting the 'Gothic' in Brisbane:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/26bdklvr2t73ded/Alison%20Rogers%20and%20Gary%20Thorpe%20about%20the%20Gothic.mp3
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 27, 2010, 09:40:24 AM
Two reviews. Whether (some of) the criticism is well-founded, I can only say when I have heard the actual performance...

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/arts/sleeping-juggernaut-comes-to-life-with-a-mighty-concerted-effort/story-e6frg8n6-1225976789146

http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/review-havergal-brians-symphony-no1/story-fn6ck8la-1225976720044
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on December 27, 2010, 09:45:59 AM
My dear Johan, I don't believe I could ever become a Brianiac to rival you. Fear not! : )

Just got e-mail alerting me that my copy of the Gothic has been shipped.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 27, 2010, 09:50:17 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 27, 2010, 09:45:59 AM
My dear Johan, I don't believe I could ever become a Brianiac to rival you. Fear not! : )

I don't think so, either. My addiction started more than 30 years ago...  ;)

QuoteJust got e-mail alerting me that my copy of the Gothic has been shipped.

OK. Look for that spire on the horizon, slowly approaching...

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Monty Cello on December 28, 2010, 03:24:40 AM
G'day. I am new to this particular forum, which I found by searching for Brian's The Tigers on the Internet. My search was caused by my mislaying my own recordings of both the initial broadcast of the BBC Radio 3 production of 1984, and its later rebroadcast. So, many thanks to Albion for his efforts in posting those wma files. By a stroke of good fortune I have here files derived from a DAT, made at the right end of the broadcast chain, of the Schmidt performance of The Gothic. I would rather not post links to them openly. However, anyone interested might like to contact me via the personal messaging system here. What a pity, by the way, that the Testament issue of the Boult performance derives from the 'wrong' end of the broadcast chain. The peak at around 19kHz is a dead give-away, as is the restricted frequency range of the musical content.  :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2010, 08:18:10 AM
Welcome, Monty Cello! Great to have another Brianite on board. Interesting what you say about the Testament 'Gothic'. You mean, they didn't use a 'master tape'?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Monty Cello on December 28, 2010, 01:31:49 PM
Hi Jezetha,

No, they certainly didn't. I have it on fairly reliable authority that there is a 7.5ips reel to reel of the broadcast in the BBC archive, but either that was donated by a listener, or it was too degraded to be used for the Testament issue. I was a bit taken aback on first listening to the Testament CDs, they just did not sound significantly better than my own reel-to-reel from FM, so I ripped them, used Sound Forge to carry out a spectral analysis, and all was revealed. I can think of no other reason for the isolated peak around 19kHz, or the cut off of the rest of the audio at around 15kHz.

[By the way, re. the Brabbins Gothic at next year's Proms. Confirmation has been received from several of the performers due to participate.]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2010, 01:38:05 PM
Hm, that's not good. My introduction to the 'Gothic' was through the Aries pirated recording, which wasn't that bad - very open sound, quite spectacular. You confirrn by spectral analysis what was bugging me subliminally about the Testament CDs - that, as you say, the gain didn't seem all that striking. Well, now we know why... Pity.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on December 28, 2010, 01:50:31 PM
Welcome, Monty!

You from Charlottesville?
; )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2010, 02:00:04 PM
Quote from: Monty Cello on December 28, 2010, 01:31:49 PM[By the way, re. the Brabbins Gothic at next year's Proms. Confirmation has been received from several of the performers due to participate.]

The game's afoot, then! [I know it from another source... You are well-informed, too!]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on December 28, 2010, 02:03:51 PM
Now, the two of you need to use your Brianite influence to persuade someone (Hyperion?) to release a recording of the upcoming Proms concert...  ;)

P.S. At any rate it should be posted by the BBC in glorious high-def on YouTube and thus immortalized?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Monty Cello on December 28, 2010, 02:15:51 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 28, 2010, 01:50:31 PM
Welcome, Monty!

You from Charlottesville?
; )

Heh, heh. No, my moniker is just a little word play on my Welsh forename (though I am not actually Welsh).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on December 28, 2010, 02:44:01 PM
Quote from: Monty Cello on December 28, 2010, 01:31:49 PM

[By the way, re. the Brabbins Gothic at next year's Proms. Confirmation has been received from several of the performers due to participate.]

I smell a GMG in-person meeting!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2010, 02:46:01 PM
Quote from: Guido on December 28, 2010, 02:44:01 PM
I smell a GMG in-person meeting!

Nothing wrong with your nose...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Monty Cello on December 28, 2010, 04:05:40 PM
Quote from: Luke on December 26, 2010, 02:19:47 PM
Doesn't sound like a woman to be crossed, Ms Fury....

Luke, your personal message box is full. I have a message waiting to be sent, but I can't successfully send it until you make room for it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2010, 11:50:23 PM
Another view from the Brisbane 'Gothic'...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Monty Cello on December 29, 2010, 02:19:57 AM
I have just emailed Radio 3 via their "Contact Us" system to suggest a re-broadcast of their 1983 production of The Tigers on a Thursday afternoon in the run-up to the Prom performance of The Gothic. How about others doing likewise? Even if/though it might seem unlikely to  prompt such a re-broadcast before the Proms, perhaps it would at least serve to remind them that it is there in the archive.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2010, 02:29:59 AM
Quote from: Monty Cello on December 29, 2010, 02:19:57 AM
I have just emailed Radio 3 via their "Contact Us" system to suggest a re-broadcast of their 1983 production of The Tigers on a Thursday afternoon in the run-up to the Prom performance of The Gothic. How about others doing likewise? Even if/though it might seem unlikely to  prompt such a re-broadcast before the Proms, perhaps it would at least serve to remind them that it is there in the archive.

Officially, the 'Gothic' performance isn't even a fact. And I'm not British, though a long-standing member of the HBS. If I mail the BBC, I'll do it next week. Otherwise it could look like a concerted avalanche!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2010, 02:38:31 AM
Three great things I read today about the 'Gothic'.

1) Our own Sarge, on the old forum:

"At the climactic moment (of the Vivace in Part 1), when the tension couldn't be greater or last a second longer, Brian leaps the entire tonal universe in three chords: C major to F sharp to the home key of D minor, and that F sharp never fails to chill me to the bone. It sounds like the existential scream of a million lost souls."

http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,8375.msg250263.html#msg250263 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,8375.msg250263.html#msg250263)

2) Deryck Cooke, in 1966, from the programme booklet for the Boult 'Gothic' (describing the same movement):

"The climax is an astounding one - a sudden musical 'happening', which brings a sense of elemental menace, motivating the choral Te Deum which is the Finale."

3) Karim Elmahmoudi, a trombonist and composer from LA who attended the Brisbane 'Gothic' (and posted the photo on Facebook you saw earlier):

"Knowing this work very well, I was concerned if a live performance would be able to capture it given its extreme technical challenges (for example, there are some moments where the choirs are broken down into 32 separate polyphonic parts), but I was thrilled at hearing the tremendous sound of the full collected forces in action! I'm certain this must have registered on the Richter scale somewhere as an earthquake. Along with some delicate moments, the music features some of the most intensely primal moments I have ever heard! Really, there is nothing I've encountered that is quite like this behemoth of a work."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Monty Cello on December 29, 2010, 02:47:15 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 29, 2010, 02:29:59 AM
Officially, the 'Gothic' performance isn't even a fact.

It's not an officially public fact, but it is very much officially in the performers' diaries.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2010, 02:49:38 AM
Quote from: Monty Cello on December 29, 2010, 02:47:15 AM
It's not an officially public fact, but it is very much officially in the performers' diaries.  ;)

Point taken...  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2010, 04:25:38 AM
More pics from Brisbane...


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on December 29, 2010, 05:21:05 AM
One never knows . . . my copy of the Gothic could arrive today . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2010, 05:25:37 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 29, 2010, 05:21:05 AM
One never knows . . . my copy of the Gothic could arrive today . . . .

'Twill be the end of Boston as we know't, sirrah.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on December 29, 2010, 05:26:20 AM
Nay, Boston will remain the Hub of the Universe : )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2010, 05:29:04 AM
The Hub of Henning, more likely!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 29, 2010, 01:51:00 PM
(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4619/82954611.jpg)

Has anyone heard this disc? I was tempted to buy it but read a somewhat negative review of it here (http://landofllostcontent.blogspot.com/2008/12/havergal-brian-early-works.html). Mediocre performances I can put up with, but poor engineering and indexing is not on.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2010, 01:59:37 PM
Quote from: Lethe on December 29, 2010, 01:51:00 PM
(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4619/82954611.jpg)

Has anyone heard this disc? I was tempted to buy it but read a somewhat negative review of it here (http://landofllostcontent.blogspot.com/2008/12/havergal-brian-early-works.html). Mediocre performances I can put up with, but poor engineering and indexing is not on.
How much does it have to cost? I know these recordings still from their LP incarnations (early 80s). I must admit that especially the violins are struggling, more so than their colleagues in the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra. And the sound? Don't remember. What I do know is that qua interpretation I like some of their versions better than the more polished performances on the Naxos/Marco Polo CDs. The final section of Doctor Merryheart, for instance, and the peroration of the Fantastic variations (Edit: hm, I mean the fanfare with organ, not the violins that have to sing afterwards...). Another bonus is the delightful First English Suite, which you can't find anywhere else...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 29, 2010, 02:16:15 PM
I was mainly interested in the first English Suite, I admit. It's £12.50 for two well-filled discs - not sure about shipping. I suppose I should support the worthy projects (like the upcoming new recordings) rather than spend limited money on potentially compromised material, I suppose - especially if it's getting on for full price.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2010, 02:19:04 PM
Quote from: Lethe on December 29, 2010, 02:16:15 PM
I was mainly interested in the first English Suite, I admit. It's £12.50 for two well-filled discs - not sure about shipping. I suppose I should support the worthy projects (like the upcoming new recordings) rather than spend limited money on potentially compromised material, I suppose - especially if it's getting on for full price.


If it's only for the Suite, the price is a bit steep. If you're on a tight budget, I'd save the money for the other Brian discs in the pipeline...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 29, 2010, 03:01:06 PM
Quote from: Lethe on December 29, 2010, 01:51:00 PM
(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4619/82954611.jpg)

Has anyone heard this disc? I was tempted to buy it but read a somewhat negative review of it here (http://landofllostcontent.blogspot.com/2008/12/havergal-brian-early-works.html). Mediocre performances I can put up with, but poor engineering and indexing is not on.

I have this CD - haven't played it for years but am doing so tonight. I agree with Jezetha that the performances mmay be a bit rough-and-ready, but there is a convicion about the playing which is disarming. highlights for me are 'In Memoriam' and the 'English Suite No 1'.  Decades ago I had a fine old CBS LP featuring a youth orchestra (Leicestershire?) playing one of HB's English Suites (possibly No 2 -actually I just found out it was No 5 according to the contribution of a familiar figure to the Wikipedia article on Havergal Brian!)) and the excellent 'Sinfonia Brevis' (No 22) - which is a big omission from the current CD catalogue.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2010, 03:05:11 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 29, 2010, 03:01:06 PM
I have this CD - haven't played it for years but am doing so tonight. I agree with Jezetha that the performances mmay be a bit rough-and-ready, but there is a convicion about the playing which is disarming. highlights for me are 'In Memoriam' and the 'English Suite No 1'.  Decades ago I had a fine old CBS LP featuring a youth orchestra (Leicestershire?) playing one of HB's English Suites (possibly No 2) and the excellent 'Sinfonia Brevis' (No 22) - which is a big omission from the current CD catalogue.
It's the Fifth English Suite, Jeffrey. I have mp3s of these, and of the Symphonia Brevis. If you're interested...
Edit: yes, the LSSO. It also featured Psalm 23.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 29, 2010, 03:07:57 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 29, 2010, 03:05:11 PM
It's the Fifth English Suite, Jeffrey. I have mp3s of these, and of the Symphonia Brevis. If you're interested...

Hi Johan - I just amended my previous post, having read a famous contribution to the Wikipedia article on HB!

I don't have an mp3 player ( do you need one to play back?) - certainly I'd love to hear Symphony 22 and the English Suite No 5 again.
Jeffrey
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2010, 03:09:12 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 29, 2010, 03:07:57 PM
Hi Johan - I just amended my previous post, having read a famous contribution to the Wikipedia article on HB!

I don't have an mp3 player ( do you need one to play back?) - certainly I'd love to hear Symphony 22 and the English Suite No 5 again.
Jeffrey


You can play the music on your computer. Do you have boxes? Or a headset? [O, that must be me?!]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 29, 2010, 03:51:38 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 29, 2010, 03:09:12 PM

You can play the music on your computer. Do you have boxes? Or a headset? [O, that must be me?!]

'boxes'? Not sure what this means Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2010, 10:27:56 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 29, 2010, 03:51:38 PM
'boxes'? Not sure what this means Johan.

I meant speakers, connected to your computer! (we say 'speakerboxen' or just 'boxen' in Dutch, sorry... !)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: MDL on December 30, 2010, 05:47:49 AM
I've got the Gothic which I really like. My other half bought me this (amongst other things of course) for Christmas:

(http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.572020.gif)

But I've been away or in work and haven't had a chance to play it yet. Has anybody heard this CD and got any thoughts?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 30, 2010, 06:08:06 AM
'Any thoughts?' Yes!

I suggest you listen in order of (relative) difficulty - Festal Dance, In Memoriam, Symphony No. 32, Symphony No. 17. Festal Dance and In Memoriam are both early works. The first is very rhythmic and joyous, and not very profound. The second is grand and rather Elgarian, a spacious funeral march (with an allusion to 'God Save the King', as it was then (the early 1910s)). Symphony No. 32 was Brian's final symphony, written when he was 92 (1968). It is a spare, lean work in the contrapuntal style of his late years and shows real vigour. No. 17 (1961) is the last symphony in the postwar 'series' starting with No. 6 - colourful, quick, mercurial and very oblique. I love it.

The performances are good, and so is the sound.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 30, 2010, 07:13:54 AM
Quote from: MDL on December 30, 2010, 05:47:49 AM
I've got the Gothic which I really like. My other half bought me this (amongst other things of course) for Christmas:

(http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.572020.gif)

But I've been away or in work and haven't had a chance to play it yet. Has anybody heard this CD and got any thoughts?

To be honest, both of the 'Irish' Marco Polo/ Naxos discs are excellent - great programming and super performances under Tony Rowe and Adrian Leaper. The other disc is:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brian-Symphonies-Nos-11-Concert-Overture/dp/B003NA7G9M/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1293725252&sr=8-3
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brian-Symphonies-Nos-11-Concert-Overture/dp/B003NA7G9M/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1293725252&sr=8-3)

As with the disc pictured above, this will also give you two early works by Brian (For Valour and Dr Merryheart) along with absorbing accounts of the 11th and the 15th. What a great pity that more Brian recordings did not come from the RTE stable!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: MDL on December 30, 2010, 07:23:16 AM
Thanks for the quick comeback, guys. I'm looking forward to wrapping my ears around this CD. Actually, I must give the Gothic another whirl soon.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on December 30, 2010, 07:55:50 AM
Quote from: MDL on December 30, 2010, 05:47:49 AM
I've got the Gothic which I really like. My other half bought me this (amongst other things of course) for Christmas:

(http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.572020.gif)

But I've been away or in work and haven't had a chance to play it yet. Has anybody heard this CD and got any thoughts?

I love the Elgarian-ness of two of the works here: In Memoriam, whose Elgarisms have already been mentioned, but also the slow movement of Brian's 32nd (and final) symphony. I find this incredibly affecting, because the "stately sorrow" of its climax seems to me the very last gasp of the Elgarian Age - the last use of Elgar's musical language by a composer who was contemporary with (and knew personally ) E.E. himself.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on December 30, 2010, 08:32:58 AM
Quote from: MDL on December 30, 2010, 05:47:49 AM
I've got the Gothic which I really like. My other half bought me this (amongst other things of course) for Christmas:

(http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.572020.gif)

But I've been away or in work and haven't had a chance to play it yet. Has anybody heard this CD and got any thoughts?

Thank you all (I think) for the discussion . . . my copy of the Gothic has not yet landed, but I've already now pulled the trigger on this other Brian disc.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 30, 2010, 08:49:34 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 30, 2010, 08:32:58 AM
Thank you all (I think) for the discussion . . . my copy of the Gothic has not yet landed, but I've already now pulled the trigger on this other Brian disc.

Then you'll have the alpha and omega of Brian's symphonic output. Not a bad way to begin a Brian journey.

Sage
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 31, 2010, 03:21:50 AM
Here is a link to the 1974 performance of Das Siegeslied (Symphony No.4):

http://www.mediafire.com/?v25xjnjawmn
(http://www.mediafire.com/?v25xjnjawmn)
13 October 1974  [first public performance] / 25 June 1975 (BBC Radio 3 broadcast) . Alexandra Palace, London
Felicity Palmer (sop), BBC Singers, BBC Choral Society, Goldsmith's Choral Union, London Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor John Poole
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 31, 2010, 03:27:26 AM
Quote from: Albion on December 31, 2010, 03:21:50 AM
Here is a link to the 1974 performance of Das Siegeslied (Symphony No.4):

http://www.mediafire.com/?v25xjnjawmn
(http://www.mediafire.com/?v25xjnjawmn)
13 October 1974  [first public performance] / 25 June 1975 (BBC Radio 3 broadcast) . Alexandra Palace, London
Felicity Palmer (sop), BBC Singers, BBC Choral Society, Goldsmith's Choral Union, London Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor John Poole
I have that as an mp3, digitised from an LP (it's in my 'emporium', too). Got it from an American fan. What's the origin of your file? (which I'm going to download, of course!)


Edit: I think it's the same!... Just dl'ed: yes.
+
Just checked the files in my 'emporium': it's the Leaper (Naxos), not the 1974 recording...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 31, 2010, 03:36:13 AM
It also comes from the LP - a net-trawl of Havergal Brian and Aries brought it to the surface!

As a performance I think it holds up very well indeed.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 31, 2010, 03:47:09 AM
Quote from: Albion on December 31, 2010, 03:36:13 AM
As a performance I think it holds up very well indeed.
I agree. And it's good to have two performances, though neither performance leaves me quite as 'gutted' as Malcolm MacDonald's description in volume 1 of his Brian study should lead you to expect. The work needs a performance of enormous intensity to do it full justice. For instance - that orchestral passage in the middle movement, depicting the chariot of God, isn't as awe-inspiring as I would have wanted. You can tell the music is good, though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 31, 2010, 04:00:05 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on December 31, 2010, 03:47:09 AM
I agree. And it's good to have two performances, though neither performance leaves me quite as 'gutted' as Malcolm MacDonald's description in volume 1 of his Brian study should lead you to expect. The work needs a performance of enormous intensity to do it full justice. For instance - that orchestral passage in the middle movement, depicting the chariot of God, isn't as awe-inspiring as I would have wanted. You can tell the music is good, though.
I prefer this 1974 performance (despite it's limited sonics) to the Leaper recording - everything hangs together more convincingly and I think that the high quality of the music comes across much more clearly. From what I had read about the Poole performance I was expecting (at the least) some choral mishaps and uncertain orchestral playing - in fact, the achievement of the forces involved is quite breathtaking.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 31, 2010, 04:06:45 AM
Quote from: Albion on December 31, 2010, 04:00:05 AM
I prefer this 1974 performance (despite it's limited sonics) to the Leaper recording - everything hangs together more convincingly and I think that the high quality of the music comes across much more clearly. From what I had read about the Poole performance I was expecting (at the least) some choral mishaps and uncertain orchestral playing - in fact, the achievement of the forces involved is quite breathtaking.
Agreed, again. A friend of mine bought the Aries recording in London a long time ago (24 years), so that was the performance which introduced me to the work. I think it's better than the Leaper, too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 31, 2010, 01:38:38 PM
Because it is so good and atmospheric, I'll give you Karim Elmahmoudi's impression (on Facebook) of the Brisbane Gothic in full. Let it be the last thing to appear on this thread before 2010 ends. 2011 should be another great year for Havergal Brian...

"I recently returned from Brisbane, Australia, where I heard a live performance of Havergal Brian's "Gothic Symphony". This work is the largest symphonic composition - officially recognized by the Guinness Book of Records (1974) as the largest, longest and most technically difficult symphony ever composed, it is widely regarded as the Mount Everest of classical music. The music required about 500-600 performers of great technical and musical skills.

Some quick statistics: It requires 8 fanfare trumpets, 10 percussionists, organ, 4 choirs plus an additional children's choir, 4 extra brass bands, 11 clarinets, 6 timpanists (an orchestra of 180). I auditioned to play one of the trombone parts. Though I wasn't selected, I was invited to attend the rehearsals which I gladly did since this is a work I have been greatly moved by since I first encountered it in its 1989 premiere recording. Plus it was great to make many new friends from Australia and elsewhere around the world.

This was the first time in 30 years since the piece was last performed and only the fifth time in history since its composition in the 1920's. This had to have ranked up in the top two or three live concert events I've ever experienced. The musicianship of the combined orchestras was exceptional and the impact of the performance was a truly shattering experience.

Knowing this work very well, I was concerned if a live performance would be able to capture it given its extreme technical challenges (for example, there are some moments where the choirs are broken down into 32 separate polyphonic parts), but I was thrilled at hearing the tremendous sound of the full collected forces in action! I'm certain this must have registered on the Richter scale somewhere as an earthquake. Along with some delicate moments, the music features some of the most intensely primal moments I have ever heard!

The collage of colors and sounds are so unique – there is a xylophone cadenza in the third movement against unison tubas that was executed extremely well by the performers. The momentum builds and builds with orchestral growls intensifying until the tension is unshakeable and then we hear unison trombone pedal tones blasting a hole in the opposite end of the concert hall.

During the performance, I really enjoyed sitting next to a kind audience member and her young daughter – neither of whom had ever heard of the Gothic Symphony but decided to attend out of curiosity. During the concert they were fully engaged and tremendously enjoyed the whole event and even some of the moments of musical barbarism. It was one of the quietest audiences because they were all so engaged and moved by the performance. Not a peep from anyone even considering this 115 minute work had no intermission. The concert quickly sold out so they opened up the dress rehearsal and that also filled up. The audience was very excited and gave a 10 minute standing ovation. Really, there is nothing I've encountered that is quite like this behemoth of a work."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 05, 2011, 07:55:10 AM
Perhaps a funny place to do so, but I want to say I'll be off the radar temporarily. My novel demands my undivided attention if I want to get the first big part published later this year. Of course, Brian's music will accompany my labours...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on January 05, 2011, 08:09:38 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 05, 2011, 07:55:10 AM
Perhaps a funny place to do so, but I want to say I'll be off the radar temporarily. My novel demands my undivided attention if I want to get the first big part published later this year. Of course, Brian's music will accompany my labours...

Write well, Johan!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 05, 2011, 08:56:53 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 05, 2011, 07:55:10 AM
Perhaps a funny place to do so, but I want to say I'll be off the radar temporarily. My novel demands my undivided attention if I want to get the first big part published later this year. Of course, Brian's music will accompany my labours...

If it's anything like The Gothic, you know what that will mean with regard to the dimensions of the second part!  :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on January 05, 2011, 09:23:17 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 05, 2011, 07:55:10 AM
Perhaps a funny place to do so, but I want to say I'll be off the radar temporarily. My novel demands my undivided attention if I want to get the first big part published later this year. Of course, Brian's music will accompany my labours...
Good luck with it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 05, 2011, 09:25:47 AM
Thanks, everyone! I'll also disable notifications of any reply from GMG (and Facebook, too). Complete abstinence can lead to complete fulfilment... ;-) Bye bye!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on January 06, 2011, 12:06:29 PM
Positively Brianic self-control, to leave things standing like this, J...

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on January 06, 2011, 12:07:48 PM
Hah!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on January 10, 2011, 08:32:23 AM
Well, I found myself fairly tongue-tied after an inaugural listen to the Gothic.  The weekend was not so peaceful as to allow me a straight-through re-listen, but I did listen again to both disc 1 (once) and disc 2 (twice).  I'm only starting to get a musical coat-rack on which to peg bits of the piece, so I do not yet really have an intelligent sense of the overall garment.  But I like it even better with each go.  I'm far more impressed with it as a whole than in my ignorance I supposed I might be.

(And it somehow feels right to get to know this piece, the same week that I am re-acquainting myself with the Hartmann symphonies. Different as they are.)

Well, just wanted to check in. Fact is, I need to listen a couple of times more. But I'm on it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 13, 2011, 07:18:34 AM
Ha! I got tempted back to GMG after days of writing and I see Karl having had his maiden listening of The Gothic and being positive about the piece. This is really good news. (And btw, Karl - I love Hartmann, too.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on January 13, 2011, 07:22:02 AM
And I did listen again yesterday, JohanLuke's remarks to the effect of how the piece sustains itself over so long a span have lingered as an echo over my auditions.  Really a marvelous piece.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 13, 2011, 07:29:36 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 13, 2011, 07:22:02 AM
And I did listen again yesterday, Johan.  Luke's remarks to the effect of how the piece sustains itself over so long a span have lingered as an echo over my auditions.  Really a marvelous piece.
It is really wonderful to hear from someone you respect that he can share your enthusiasm for a piece of music that still isn't recognised as the fascinating and masterly thing it is. Bravo! on this, the 70th anniversary of James Joyce's death! 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on January 13, 2011, 07:44:57 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 13, 2011, 07:22:02 AM
And I did listen again yesterday, JohanLuke's remarks to the effect of how the piece sustains itself over so long a span have lingered as an echo over my auditions.  Really a marvelous piece.

Fabulous, all round - to see Johan back briefly, to read Karl's reactions to The Gothic, to think that something I wrote may have had some effect. I was, in fact, preparing another little reply anyway, based on Karls' line ' I'm only starting to get a musical coat-rack on which to peg bits of the piece, so I do not yet really have an intelligent sense of the overall garment'. Give me a few minutes... (though I have 40 children turning up in the classroom to sing their little socks off any second now)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 13, 2011, 07:47:55 AM
Quote from: Luke on January 13, 2011, 07:44:57 AM
Fabulous, all round - to see Johan back briefly, to read Karl's reactions to The Gothic, to think that something I wrote may have had some effect. I was, in fact, preparing another little reply anyway, based on Karls' line ' I'm only starting to get a musical coat-rack on which to peg bits of the piece, so I do not yet really have an intelligent sense of the overall garment'. Give me a few minutes... (though I have 40 children turning up in the classroom to sing their little socks off any second now)


Nothing beats informed advocacy, Luke, something at which you excel.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on January 14, 2011, 04:46:58 AM
I don't understand how J has posted two more posts since Luke's picture and still has only 4999 as his total... Have you deleted two posts in order that the total stays there?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 14, 2011, 04:51:04 AM
Quote from: Guido on January 14, 2011, 04:46:58 AM
I don't understand how J has posted two more posts since Luke's picture and still has only 4999 as his total... Have you deleted two posts in order that the total stays there?!

No. Yesterday I had 5003 posts...?!? Let's see if this makes 5000...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on January 14, 2011, 04:54:48 AM
Something's a bit wonky with the counter. MN Dave created a new account, and 'started' with a count of 516 posts ; )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 14, 2011, 04:56:28 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 14, 2011, 04:54:48 AM
Something's a bit wonky with the counter. MN Dave created a new account, and 'started' with a count of 516 posts ; )

Let's hope the wonky counter doesn't cast you back to 285!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on January 14, 2011, 05:04:51 AM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 14, 2011, 04:56:28 AM
Let's hope the wonky counter doesn't cast you back to 285!

Should that happen, I'll take it philosophically, rather : )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 28, 2011, 01:46:03 PM
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/toccataclassicstocc0110.jpg)


BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, Garry Walker

The long-neglected British composer Havergal Brian (1876–1972) is gradually coming in from the cold, with recordings on Naxos, Dutton, Testament and now Toccata Classics.

Self-taught, from a working-class family in Stoke-on Trent, he shot to fame when Henry Wood discovered him for the 1907 Proms; but he remained an outsider to the British musical establishment, and is as much known for his creative persistence in the face of utter neglect as for the extremely serious and ambitious works that he produced.

His copious output famously includes 32 symphonies, begun when he was in his mid-forties and continued at a constant rate well into his 90s. Only occasionally requiring gigantic forces on stage – Sir Adrian Boult, who conducted his First Symphony (The Gothic), reportedly had to rehearse with a megaphone in order to be heard – Brian's symphonies do nonetheless demand large orchestras.

There is also a substantial body of smaller symphonic works such as those featured on this disc (overtures, suites, symphonic poems and variations) that he began as a young man and which he continued to compose as a complement to his later symphonic output.

The four works here span 65 years and encompass his entire composing career: from the early Burlesque Variations that was also championed at the Proms and presumed lost until 1974, to two mature and highly contrasted works from the 1950s and finally his epilogue – Ave atque Vale, music of astonishing vigour and energy for a 92-year-old, and the second-last work that he wrote before he died.

Toccata Classics - TOCC0110

(CD)

€15.49
   

Scheduled for release on 21 March 2011. Order it now and we will deliver it as soon as it is available.

(The above taken from: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=havergal+Brian (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=havergal+Brian))
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on January 28, 2011, 03:02:42 PM
  :D  Good God, this is fantastic news Johan!  I had no idea the BBCSO were up to such things.  This really is exciting, way overdue.  I was listening to "Gothic" today, remembering how switched on I got - started to switch on to him again and now this....fab news.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 28, 2011, 03:18:14 PM
Quote from: John on January 28, 2011, 03:02:42 PM
  :D  Good God, this is fantastic news Johan!  I had no idea the BBCSO were up to such things.  This really is exciting, way overdue.  I was listening to "Gothic" today, remembering how switched on I got - started to switch on to him again and now this....fab news.


Yes, it is, isn't it? And there will be a second Toccata Classics disc of orchestral music from HB's operas (Faust, Turandot, Cenci iirc). This isn't scheduled for release before the Autumn at the earliest.

Out late Feb or early March: two Dutton CDs - Syms 10/30 plus Concerto for Orchestra & English Suite 3, and one with the Cello Concerto plus works by Bush & Bowen.

AND - I just learned that Naxos, finally, will be recording Symphonies 22, 23 & 24 plus English Suite No. 1 in Liverpool at the end of Feb. RLPO conducted by James Judd.  :)


P.S. I just realised - it's now 29 january here in the Netherlands, the birthday of Mozart, Delius and... Havergal Brian.

 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on January 28, 2011, 04:08:53 PM
Woah, so many awesome things to buy this year. I guess I'll try buying directly from the labels in each instance, as it presumably gives them a bigger cut.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on January 28, 2011, 04:11:08 PM
Quote from: Jezetha on January 28, 2011, 03:18:14 PM
Yes, it is, isn't it? And there will be a second Toccata Classics disc of orchestral music from HB's operas (Faust, Turandot, Cenci iirc). This isn't scheduled for release before the Autumn at the earliest.
Out late Feb or early March: two Dutton CDs - Syms 10/30 plus Concerto for Orchestra & English Suite 3, and one with the Cello Concerto plus works by Bush & Bowen.
AND - I just learned that Naxos, finally, will be recording Symphonies 22, 23 & 24 plus English Suite No. 1 in Liverpool at the end of Feb. RLPO conducted by James Judd.  :)
P.S. I just realised - it's now 29 january here in the Netherlands, the birthday of Mozart, Delius and... Havergal Brian.

I am delighted with ALL this news.  It's breakthrough stuff, and now he may rise to a rightful prominence in the list of the most outstanding English composers.  I know I gush a lot, may sound superfluous, but really good news always gives me a physical reaction of some kind of celebratory joy, and for some reason I feel that way about this.
It is the same feeling as crying out loud "AT LAST""
I for one will be on purchasing everything there, and a debt of gratitude for Johan introducing me to Havergal in the first place (though by the looks of things, my wallet may protest against him come the end of the year...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on January 28, 2011, 04:11:41 PM
Quote from: Lethe on January 28, 2011, 04:08:53 PM
Woah, so many awesome things to buy this year. I guess I'll try buying directly from the labels in each instance, as it presumably gives them a bigger cut.

John, Sara, you're both coming to the Prom Gothic, right? :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on January 28, 2011, 04:17:27 PM
I'm not sure I like his first that much yet, but I have been vaguely entertaining the idea.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: not edward on January 28, 2011, 04:18:19 PM
Great to see a modern commercial recording of the Tenth; I've heard a rip of the LSSO recording that merely made me want to hear a more professional orchestra (no discredit to the LSSO, they did a bang-up job all things consider) play this one.

I suppose I should retry the Gothic some time--thus far the works before the 6th haven't grabbed me (I have so far only thoroughly warmed to the 6th through the 10th, which seems from what I've read to be almost the canonical preference).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on January 28, 2011, 09:07:51 PM
Just heard No.31 for the first time, on YouTube. Well,... I was expecting more... something. :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 30, 2011, 04:15:04 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on January 28, 2011, 09:07:51 PM
Just heard No.31 for the first time, on YouTube. Well,... I was expecting more... something. :(

"..the impressions that remain after a performance are of a profound inner calm. The music gazes from the mountaintop, rather than reliving the difficulties of the ascent." --Malcolm MacDonald

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on January 30, 2011, 04:24:27 AM
Quote from: Lethe on January 28, 2011, 04:17:27 PM
I'm not sure I like his first that much yet, but I have been vaguely entertaining the idea.

Heck, I've never heard it, but how many times is a concert like that going to happen in my life span/hemisphere?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 30, 2011, 04:27:16 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 30, 2011, 04:24:27 AM
Heck, I've never heard it, but how many times is a concert like that going to happen in my life span/hemisphere?


With The Gothic it's bit like with the police - you can wait 30 years for one performance to come around, and then two take place within a year.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on March 01, 2011, 10:46:15 PM
Although they are not yet listed on the Dutton home-page, the two new Epoch releases featuring Havergal Brian can be found elsewhere on the site and are available for pre-ordering:

http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDLX7267 (http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDLX7267)

http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDLX7263 (http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDLX7263)

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on March 01, 2011, 11:16:33 PM
Purchased! Thanks :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 02, 2011, 02:39:24 AM
Thanks, Albion! I was alerted to these two CDs on Facebook by fellow-member Dundonnell (sadly absent here). But I was and am extremely busy and couldn't find the time to relay it to you all here on GMG...
Great news, of course! Btw, there is one mistake about Symphony No. 10, which I spotted immediately: it doesn't ask for an organ. Malcolm MacDonald, one of the two foremost Brian scholars (the other is Paul Rapoport), cleared it up for me: the organ is used in the Third English Suite...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on March 02, 2011, 06:20:15 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 02, 2011, 02:39:24 AM
Btw, there is one mistake about Symphony No. 10, which I spotted immediately: it doesn't ask for an organ. Malcolm MacDonald, one of the two foremost Brian scholars (the other is Paul Rapoport), cleared it up for me: the organ is used in the Third English Suite...
Not a mistake, but instead a rather a confusing use of symbols - the asterisk beside Symphony No.10 refers to World premiere recordings, except, whereas the cross next to The Stonebreaker indicates the use of the organ.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 02, 2011, 06:22:08 AM
You're right, of course. But Dutton aren't when they write: "The large array of percussion and organ in Symphony No.10 are caught in demonstration-worthy sound, as are the mighty climaxes and Brian's quiet, atmospheric Sibelian interludes."  :o


http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDLX7267 (http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDLX7267)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on March 02, 2011, 07:20:59 AM
Sorry - I hadn't read all the 'blurb'! Perhaps they've popped an organ pedal or two into the score to make the organist earn his fee, or perhaps he accidentally fell on the console during a particularly tumultuous passage in the 'storm' section and they didn't have the heart to edit him out!  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 02, 2011, 07:37:29 AM
I am reminded of comedy character Count Arthur Strong about Michael Crawford: "He did that er... Oprah Winfrey thing, you know... the Phantom of the Opera! Oh yes, that takes some doing, that part, living in the sewers, hunched over your organ with half your face missing!"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on March 02, 2011, 07:53:24 AM
Or perhaps Monty Python's

(http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictures/compdiff/nudeorga.jpg)  :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 02, 2011, 08:02:46 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on March 02, 2011, 08:05:52 AM
Well, whoever paid the fee for the use of the organ at the Henry Wood Hall in Glasgow certainly got a bum deal!  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 02, 2011, 08:08:10 AM
 :D


Seeing how many children he fathered, I am always bothered by the tautological 'Bach's Organ Works'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on March 02, 2011, 08:32:09 AM
BTW, despite the March 17th official release date, TOCC0110 (http://www.toccataclassics.com/cddetail.php?CN=TOCC0110 (http://www.toccataclassics.com/cddetail.php?CN=TOCC0110)) is being shipped by Toccata - I got mine at the end of last week.

For me the undoubted highlight is the 1903 Burlesque Variations - Brian fully-formed at the age of 27 producing music sounding totally unlike anything else being written in Britain (or indeed anywhere) at the time.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 02, 2011, 08:36:58 AM
Quote from: Albion on March 02, 2011, 08:32:09 AM
BTW, despite the March 17th official release date, TOCC0110 (http://www.toccataclassics.com/cddetail.php?CN=TOCC0110 (http://www.toccataclassics.com/cddetail.php?CN=TOCC0110)) is being shipped by Toccata - I got mine at the end of last week.

For me the undoubted highlight is the 1903 Burlesque Variations - Brian fully-formed at the age of 27 producing music sounding totally unlike anything else being written in Britain (or indeed anywhere) at the time.  :)

I only 'know' that very early work from the Hull Youth Orchestra recording, which was terrible. I am thrilled it suddenly stands revealed as a genuinely Brianic piece. Can't wait. Still have to order, though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on March 02, 2011, 08:42:31 AM
I don't think you'll be disappointed - and the performances of Ave atque vale, Elegy and the 5th English Suite are excellent as well. Roll on Volume 2 (orchestral music from the operas) later in the year!   ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 02, 2011, 08:48:17 AM
Quote from: Albion on March 02, 2011, 08:42:31 AM
I don't think you'll be disappointed - and the performances of Ave atque vale, Elegy and the 5th English Suite are excellent as well. Roll on Volume 2 (orchestral music from the operas) later in the year!   ;D

I heard that Turandot Suite live in St James's Church, Piccadilly, in 1995 - unforgettable. The colour and the variety! And what has been heard from Faust, the Prologue in Heaven, is among Brian's best. So I'm looking forward to the Wild Ride! Both Turandot and Faust date from the years of symphonies 6-12, a golden period in my view.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on March 03, 2011, 12:54:43 AM
Just listened to the sample tracks from the new Brian CD on the Toccata website.

WOW!! :o

They sound GREAT! And this sums up part of the "Brian Problem" - to date, most of his works have been given performances ranging from the mediocre to the execrable - with a few honourable exceptions. (The Fredman 6 and 16 comes to mind.)

WHAT A DIFFERENCE when a professional orchestra is well-rehearsed by a conductor totally committed to Brian's idiom!

On the Toccata CD, even the "Burlesque Variations" - a relatively "light" piece for Brian - sounds very impressive.

I just can't WAIT to hear what Martyn Brabbins and the RSNO make of that awesome score, the Tenth Symphony.

Kudos to Toccata, Dutton and all involved. 2011 might be the year in which Brian finally gets his due; let's hope so!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 03, 2011, 01:09:59 AM
Didn't know about those samples...  :o  I am going to download the thing NOW - I don't care for silver discs anyhow, and the sleevenotes can be downloaded, too.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on March 03, 2011, 10:18:02 PM
Yes, I have downloaded the Toccata disc and ordered the Duttons. It's wonderful to hear good performances of these works, though I had gotten used to the crunchiness of the old tape of the 5th English Suite and miss it a little. :'(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 03, 2011, 10:54:20 PM
(Hi, Hattoff!)
 
I listened to theToccata CD 5 or 6 times yesterday. My conclusion: an important addition to the Brian discography, but not perfect. I like the playing of the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, they don't show any difficulty with Brian's tricky idiom. The sound is a bit dry, and light (to these ears). The conductor, Garry Walker, gives us brisk readings. There is no loitering there, the music moves forward, colourful, through a great many moods and landscapes.
 
So far, so good.
 
The one problem I have with this approach is: it doesn't work all of the time, it can't, because some movements or passages are really meant to be played more slowly to get their full effect. I am thinking especially of Elegy and of Reverie in the Fifth English Suite. The former takes 3 minutes longer in a studio recording with the BBC Northern Symphony Orchestra under Brian Wright and it really is much more powerful in that reading. As for Reverie, the youth orchestra is no match for the BBCSSO, but interpretation-wise, the older reading is superior. So I won't turn to Garry Walker in the future, alas, when I want to listen to these pieces.
 
What I certainly will do is listen to the rest. Ave Atque Vale and the Burlesque Variations, especially, are in themselves worth the price of admission. Ave Atque Vale is Brian's penultimate work, written when he was 92. It is short and sharp, and stylistically very similar to symphonies like 28, 30 and 31. I love it, though it took me a few times to understand its structure. The Burlesque Variations on an Original Theme is Brian's earliest extant orchestral work, written at age 27, and it is wonderful in its youthful gusto and adventurousness.
 
And here endeth the lesson.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on March 03, 2011, 11:15:01 PM
Hi Johan,
I see what you mean, perhaps that is why I wasn't quite so enamoured with the 5th English Suite. As for the sound, I agree, but found it helpful to turn the volume up louder than I usually do, though then it gets a bit too loud in places. I too have listened to the recording at least five times (more today) and the music just takes my breath away.
Come on Duttons, I can't wait to hear the Concerto for Orchestra, the tape of which I lost some years ago. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 04, 2011, 02:10:42 PM
The Dutton HB Symphony 10 is out next week - can't wait.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 04, 2011, 02:23:44 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 04, 2011, 02:10:42 PM
The Dutton HB Symphony 10 is out next week - can't wait.

Let's hope it will totally surpass the LSSO performance and that it shows aspects of the work never experienced before...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 05, 2011, 02:11:09 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 04, 2011, 02:23:44 PM
Let's hope it will totally surpass the LSSO performance and that it shows aspects of the work never experienced before...

Yes, that is absolutely my hope. Symphonies 8-10 are my favourites apart from The Gothic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 08, 2011, 07:42:46 AM
Very good news here:

http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDLX7267
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2011, 08:11:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 08, 2011, 07:42:46 AM
Very good news here:

http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDLX7267

That would be good news if Dutton accepted my credit card. But they are the only web store that's refused it. Oh well, I'll wait until its available from Amazon.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 09, 2011, 07:28:33 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2011, 08:11:47 AM
That would be good news if Dutton accepted my credit card. But they are the only web store that's refused it. Oh well, I'll wait until its available from Amazon.

Sarge

That's really annoying - hopefully will be on Amazon soon.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J on March 09, 2011, 03:02:18 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 05, 2011, 02:11:09 PM
Yes, that is absolutely my hope. Symphonies 8-10 are my favourites apart from The Gothic.

The "Tragica" (No.6) not included?  For me, Nos. 6, 8, & 10 stand heads above any of the others (exceptional as some of those are also).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on March 09, 2011, 07:40:44 PM
Is the 7th too melodic for y'all? ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on March 10, 2011, 07:59:42 AM
For me it's 6, 10 and 16......oh, and The Gothic.
Then 7 and 8.
And I do rather like In Memoriam!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on March 10, 2011, 09:03:07 AM
I'm also keen on the 16th outside the usual pantheon of nos.6-10, no doubt due to it being one of the few later ones to receive a top-notch recording.

I'm also very fond of the 27th for the same reason - the (commercially unreleased - come on Dutton!) Mackerras recording is very fine and made a believer of me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 12, 2011, 09:10:39 AM
I remember buying the Mackerras Lp as a teenager & being disappointed by it. I recently got the deleted emi 'twofer' that includes the Seventh & now regard it as one of his best. Yet most Brian enthusiasts hardly mention it! I wonder why? It is surely one of Brian's most colourful,consistently inspired and atmospheric creations. Particularly fascinating is the way that this big,expansive,romantically inclined symphony shares so many of the characteristics of his later more elliptical utterances. It's like a melting pot of early & late Brian. You need to understand it to crack the later ones. A very underrated work in the Brian canon.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on March 12, 2011, 09:25:49 AM
I agree that the 7th is the ultimate Brian intro, it lacks much of the "tough nut" quality of the chronologically surrounding works. It has such a velvety, brooding Romantic/gothic mood (explicit, opposed to the 1st's philosophising).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 12, 2011, 11:26:00 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2011, 08:11:47 AM
That would be good news if Dutton accepted my credit card. But they are the only web store that's refused it. Oh well, I'll wait until its available from Amazon.

Sarge

I think it's there for a couple of days already: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Symphony-Concerto-Orchestra/dp/B004RO2L5W/ref=sr_1_19?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1299961354&sr=1-19
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 13, 2011, 01:46:54 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 12, 2011, 11:26:00 AM
I think it's there for a couple of days already: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Symphony-Concerto-Orchestra/dp/B004RO2L5W/ref=sr_1_19?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1299961354&sr=1-19

I've been looking for it but searchs at amazon uk of Havergal Brian didn't, and still don't turn up the item for me. Since you provided a link it's obviously there though. Thanks!

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 14, 2011, 01:21:49 AM
Quote from: J on March 09, 2011, 03:02:18 PM
The "Tragica" (No.6) not included?  For me, Nos. 6, 8, & 10 stand heads above any of the others (exceptional as some of those are also).

You are right - I should have included No 6 - a great work and I was delighted when it appeared on Lyrita.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on March 14, 2011, 01:58:19 AM
The Dutton disc turned up this morning. Well early. A surpassing of expectations, the orchestral playing is wonderful and the sound quality is unbelievably good. A treat for all here.
Still waiting for the Cello Concerto disc.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 14, 2011, 02:03:01 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on March 14, 2011, 01:58:19 AM
The Dutton disc turned up this morning. Well early. A surpassing of expectations, the orchestral playing is wonderful and the sound quality is unbelievably good. A treat for all here.
Still waiting for the Cello Concerto disc.

After days of natural disasters, this counts as a sorely-needed cultural blessing. I am VERY glad to read this!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 14, 2011, 09:14:31 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 12, 2011, 11:26:00 AM
I think it's there for a couple of days already: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Symphony-Concerto-Orchestra/dp/B004RO2L5W/ref=sr_1_19?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1299961354&sr=1-19

Received email from the seller today: the CD has shipped. Once again, thanks, Christo.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 14, 2011, 10:13:42 AM
My copy of the new Dutton cd, pre-ordered via the Dutton website, of Symphony No 10 (& all the other things on it) dropped through the letterbox this morning.!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 14, 2011, 10:26:09 AM
To be fair,after a precursory listen,the old Leicestershire Schools Symph recording stands up pretty well & if it IS ever re-released on cd,and I don't think it ever has (?),I WOULD buy it. In fact their performance is etched in my memory to such a degree,the tempi on parts of the new performance actually sounded 'wrong'. And,please note,I don't mean that literaly,it's just the way you hear a piece in your head! Also,the coupling of No 21 seemed ideal & please,if there's any cd labels planning more HB,could we have a new recording of THAT one. Although,if memory serves me correctly,I have to say,the Leicestershire bunch were better at No 10. Okay,that's enough grumbling. Thank you VERY much Dutton!
After that it was Karajan's old 60's performances of Beethoven's 1st & the 'Eroica'! More HB later.........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J on March 14, 2011, 10:51:21 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 14, 2011, 10:26:09 AM
To be fair,after a precursory listen,the old Leicestershire Schools Symph recording stands up pretty well & if it IS ever re-released on cd,and I don't think it ever has (?),I WOULD buy it.

In fact, the Leicestershire performance was released on a Unicorn CD probably almost 2 decades ago now.

It's still around, even though Unicorn itself is now defunct of course.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 14, 2011, 10:56:26 AM
Here is No. 10:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/xztyigy2wjz/Brian%2010.mp3
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 14, 2011, 12:11:52 PM
Uh-oh,I missed that one. Doh! Thanks for the link. Now to find out if I'm just hearing that one through rose tinted ears.
The Hull Youth Symphony recordings,I have to say, were a different kettle of fish. Yet they tried,they were brave & their 'Festal Dance' really was miles more fun than that dreary,humourless, Naxos performance. On the other hand,those wierd,strained slightly off key strings really did warp my under standing of Brian for a while,though. Sitting through parts of those performances really was like listening to fingernails scraping a school blackboard. Yet,strangely enough,however much they left to desire,(allot!),they did possess an enthusiasm & fervour that some of those more polished Naxos performances lacked.
Hope someone can give us a professional performance of the 'English Suite No 1' before long!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 14, 2011, 12:20:04 PM
I agree - those Hull Youth Orchestra recordings were technically (sometimes) disastrous, but what they lacked in rock-solid intonation (those violins!), they made up for in enthusiasm. I still like their Doctor Merryheart, First English Suite and Fantastic Variations (in my memory, that is, for I don't have the LPs or CDs).

I'll be listening to the Dutton CD soon and see what Brabbins does with (to?!) Nos 10 and 30...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 14, 2011, 12:23:19 PM
Yes,there it is,the Unicorn cd of HB I missed,only by twenty years,on Amazon.com. A photo to of the sleeve with a rock strewn mountain scape on the front,which seems oddly appropriate. I like Unicorn,a pity they went down. It must be a rare cd now. I have done dozens of searches for Brian cd's & lp's over the years & this has never come up. Maybe,I'm just unlucky.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 14, 2011, 12:31:16 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 14, 2011, 12:23:19 PM
Yes,there it is,the Unicorn cd of HB I missed,only by twenty years,on Amazon.com. A photo to of the sleeve with a rock strewn mountain scape on the front,which seems oddly appropriate. I like Unicorn,a pity they went down. It must be a rare cd now. I have done dozens of searches for Brian cd's & lp's over the years & this has never come up. Maybe,I'm just unlucky.

I have it. Do you want the links to No 21, too?

P.S. The disc looks coffee-coloured, but it is still playable (just tested it).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 14, 2011, 12:32:25 PM
Oh,not knocking the Dutton cd. I'm just suprised at how well the old Leicestershire Schools Orch version stands up. Incidentally,I just looked for the old Hull Youth Sym recordings & found the cd set at a very low price. Unfortunately,I have bought some cd's & dvd's from this vendor which have turned out to be dodgy. On the other hand I also got some rare recordings off them at very low prices which other sellers ask huge prices for & they have,to date,always given my money back. So I have decided to take a chance on it as if they are in 'very good' condition' and don't look like Torville & Dean have been skating on them & the cd player actually gets past '0' I WILL have got a bargain,cross fingers,touch wood!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 14, 2011, 12:35:34 PM
Thanks very much for the offer,but I have access to that one.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 14, 2011, 12:37:25 PM
Nice cover photo. I wonder what 'Mountain' it is? It doesn't look like Snowdon!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 14, 2011, 12:40:21 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 14, 2011, 12:37:25 PM
Nice cover photo. I wonder what 'Mountain' it is? It doesn't look like Snowdon!

I have been to Snowdon (took a lazy cable car to the summit...) The booklet enclosed only says the photo was made by one Nigel Brandt. That's all...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 14, 2011, 01:28:28 PM
Thankyou. An odd query,but I always look at the small print when I get a cd to see who the painting is by,or the location of a photo! The music is more important obviously. At least, I hope so!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 15, 2011, 12:22:28 AM
I have just listened to the Tenth (twice, with a score).


The sound of the recording is terrific. This CD can easily be added to the few that have really done Brian's orchestral wizardry justice.  The Leicestershire Tenth dates from 1972, it was the only recording available, and you almost thought that that WAS the Tenth... Now we get Brabbins' take on the work. Tempi are brisker, the music flows very naturally. I read along with a score and I noticed that Brian really does want this. Although I would in a few passages have wished for a marginally slower tempo, I find this new 'version' very compelling. At first I was slightly disappointed by the 'storm scene' (with the infamous wind AND thunder machines), because I found it too sober, not 'con fuoco' enough. But later on Brabbins amply makes amends after the great lyrical passage with solo violin: the music there is stormier than anything in the storm itself, as if this was the thing that wanted to emerge. Another great thing about this performance is the amount of detail you get to hear, the most striking being the subtle change in harmony in the tremolandi strings four bars before the end. I had never noticed that, and it gives a new colouring to the violin that sings above it. But there are many more tiny things that gave you the sense of an old painting being cleaned up and revealing new beauties. Chapeau to Dutton, Brabbins and his orchestra! And Brian.


UPDATE: My enthusiasm is growing after a few more listenings. I think Brabbins has done it. This Tenth is it  (as far as any performance ever can BE the work). And another thing is clear to me - this is music for this century, elemental, fearless, visionary. Long live Havergal Brian!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 15, 2011, 03:52:48 AM
Lovely post, Johan. My copy of the 10th/30th disc came yesterday, too, along with the Cello Concerto disc. Have only had time to listen to the 10th and the English Suite so far - but I echo your thoughts and comments

The LSSO 10th will remain an important document in the history of HB, and one we can be grateful for (and as an ex-LSSO member who used to rehearse in the room in which the symphony was recorded, one I feel a connection to - strangely enough, Brabbins conducted me in the LSSO many years later, though in Kancheli and Woolrich, not in Brian!). But this new one is really, as Johan says, 'it'. There was nothing there that wasn't there incipiently in the LSSO recording, but so many passages revealed their true weight instantly listening through to this recording last night. The storm has never struck me as much as now; the violin solo and the music around it was never as powerfully, overwhelmingly lyrical and structurally vital as on this new recording. It's a really fine recording, and I can't wait to play it through again later.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on March 15, 2011, 06:38:46 AM
How have I missed these?! Didn't know they'd released the cello concerto too...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: not edward on March 15, 2011, 08:13:37 AM
Those with the disc with the 10th--I'm curious as to how the CforO and 30th come off. (I'll certainly be getting the disc, as the LSSO 10th has convinced me there's a lot in the work, but I'm curious as to the other two.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 15, 2011, 08:31:58 AM
Quote from: edward on March 15, 2011, 08:13:37 AM
Those with the disc with the 10th--I'm curious as to how the CforO and 30th come off. (I'll certainly be getting the disc, as the LSSO 10th has convinced me there's a lot in the work, but I'm curious as to the other two.)


Edward, after listening to the Tenth 5 times, the Thirtieth 3 times, and the Third English Suite and the Concerto for Orchestra once, I can safely say that in Brabbins we have a real Brian conductor. The man is completely at home in Brian's style, and this disc spans 40 years, from 'early mature' (Suite) to 'very late mature' (Thirtieth). I have heard four performances of No. 30, and this one is excellent. I can't compare the CfO, but knowing Brian's style in the symphonies that surround it (18-21 and 22-24), the work flows with effortless ease, though it is a demanding score (for both the orchestra and the listener). As for the Suite, it is a wonderful work, in its orchestral writing related to the opera 'The Tigers' - very colourful and inventive. So - the disc is warmly recommended. It's an essential addition to the Brian discography.


--Johan


(I have corrected the conductor's surname. The y goes into the Martyn, not into the Brabbins...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 15, 2011, 09:46:27 AM
I second that. It is certainly one of the best Brian cd's I've ever heard. I do think the Leicestershire Schools symphony brought a bit more ferocity,or perhaps I should say gusto, to that strange storm sequence & that wierd stillness that follows has oodles more atmosphere in the LSSO performance. Some of that of course is probably because I'm so used to the older recording,but I do think it's a tribute to their abilities that their performance stands up so well after all these years. Having said that,taken as a whole, the new performance is much tauter & it is definately the one I will choose to play from now on. Well,most of the time anyway! In fact,churlish,quibbles aside,it is definately one of the best performances of a Brian symphony I have ever heard,and one of the finest Brian cd's. Like the cover design too! So much better than some of those Naxos cd's which were so awful they nearly put me off one of my favourite composers for good!
Must mention the interpolation of the organ in the suite. As soon as I heard that I just had to order the Toccata cd! More Brian please. The strange thing about Brian is,that even the things that he wrote that I'm not sure I really like, intrigue me so much I have an overwhelming urge to listen to them again...and again,if only to work out why they still fascinate me.
I will report back when I get the Hull Youth so cd set. Hopefully it will be free of scratches!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 15, 2011, 12:16:26 PM
Listened to the Cello Concerto this afternoon. My immediate thought (not dispelled as I listened further) was - this may well be the best way into late Brian for the uninitiated. Because, as even us arch-Brianites know, the late pieces are generally hard nuts to crack, so compressed and elliptical is their thought. Well, here, in the concerto, all the hallmarks of late Brian are there, but in a most genial form - harmony is simpler, less thorny, lines are clear and lucid, motivic play is really a delight to follow. Above all, the addition of a soloist is the simplest way possible of delineating form - passages which out of context might sound like typically baffling late Brian are here heard as 'preparation for soloist', 'reaction to soloist' etc. etc. It's a very clear, charming piece. This is a great time to be a Brianite - an embarass de richesse indeed!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 15, 2011, 01:31:16 PM
I hope that other Dutton disc arrives here soon. Your description of the Cello Concerto makes it sound very enticing indeed, Luke! Malcolm MacDonald, in vol. 2 of his study, calls it 'not major Brian'. Neither is the Third English Suite, perhaps, which I am enjoying at the moment. But it's Brian at his most approachable, and even in that more welcoming guise, he is his own man.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2011, 12:26:33 AM
I think that the photo on the old Unicorn CD is somewhere in the Alps (well, this is what someone told me once).

Like others here I'm thrilled with the new Dutton CD of Symphony No 10 - this is just the sort of craggy, uncomromising and defiant music that I need to hear! Like cilgwyn I was also surprised by how well the Loughran LSSO Unicorn version stands up against it and I too, at first, thought that sections of the new recording sounded 'wrong' as I'm so familiar with the earlier recording. However after a second hearing I was won over to the new version - a wonderful performance of a great Symphony (if you like it you might also like Robin Orr's  one movement Symphony on an EMI CD). The LSSO clearly did a terrific service to Brian with that earlier version. I found the end with the brief lovely violin solo followed by those epic chords to be very moving in the new version - but maybe I'm just getting more sentimental as I get older!

I haven't yet ordered the Cello Concerto and I'd be very grateful to hear what other think of it - and the other works on the CD.  So far I've been rather disappointed with York Bowen, but I'm tempted by that CD. I also enjoyed the Symphony 30, more than I do most of the very late Brian symphonies - certainly I wanted to listen again and there are some interesting sonorities.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2011, 12:30:58 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 15, 2011, 12:16:26 PM
Listened to the Cello Concerto this afternoon. My immediate thought (not dispelled as I listened further) was - this may well be the best way into late Brian for the uninitiated. Because, as even us arch-Brianites know, the late pieces are generally hard nuts to crack, so compressed and elliptical is their thought. Well, here, in the concerto, all the hallmarks of late Brian are there, but in a most genial form - harmony is simpler, less thorny, lines are clear and lucid, motivic play is really a delight to follow. Above all, the addition of a soloist is the simplest way possible of delineating form - passages which out of context might sound like typically baffling late Brian are here heard as 'preparation for soloist', 'reaction to soloist' etc. etc. It's a very clear, charming piece. This is a great time to be a Brianite - an embarass de richesse indeed!

Thanks for this - please can you let me know what you think of the other works on the CD.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 16, 2011, 12:37:25 AM
Hi, Jeffrey! I know Colin is very impressed by the Bush Cello Concerto...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2011, 12:51:00 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 16, 2011, 12:37:25 AM
Hi, Jeffrey! I know Colin is very impressed by the Bush Cello Concerto...

Thanks Johan! Looks like my bank situation will be getting even worse. By the way I was delighted to read that the English Suite No 3 was inspired by the Sussex countryside - as that's where I live!

Best wishes to you

Jeffrey
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 16, 2011, 01:07:00 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 15, 2011, 12:16:26 PM
This is a great time to be a Brianite - an embarass de richesse indeed!

:) :) ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2011, 01:26:23 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 16, 2011, 01:07:00 AM
:) :) ;)

This is like a reunion of the so-called Braga Santos Experts isn't it?  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 16, 2011, 01:31:44 AM
If Colin (aka Dundonnell for those who don't know) were here, the Braga Santos Experts would be out in force! Happy days... ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2011, 01:52:24 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 16, 2011, 01:31:44 AM
If Colin (aka Dundonnell for those who don't know) were here, the Braga Santos Experts would be out in force! Happy days... ;)

Indeed - Colin's absence from this forum is a cause of regret .  Still, it was great to meet him in London and to meet those other BSEs in Leiden - Happy days indeed  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 16, 2011, 03:05:24 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 16, 2011, 01:26:23 AM
This is like a reunion of the so-called Braga Santos Experts isn't it?  ;D

:D I do hope you will all meet & reunite around the Gothic in July. Regretfully, I won't be there. But definitely next time!  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 05:41:25 AM
'Dundonell' is before my time as a 'poster' on this message board,but I have found some of his posts very useful when I have been trying to find out something about a particular work or composer.
As to the LSSO of the 10th,I think you just get so used to hearing a particular recording in your head,and unlike some other works by other British composers,there hasn't exactly been allot of choice. Another point too,this thing about hearing a particular recording 'in your head' reminds me of the R3 broadcast of the Ole Schmidt 'Gothic',when I was a teenager. I recorded the broadcast on cassette & like some teenagers on an old 'piano key' type mono cassette recorder positioned in front of the radio. Somehow the second tape got damaged or the recording went wrong. When I finally secured a recording of the entire symphony from a HB member. For years I kept 'hearing' the break where the C90 cassette side ended.
A less subtle example & dangerously off topic,perhaps? When I finally replaced my old LP of Emerson Lake & Palmer's 'Pictures of an Exhibition' (a very ott 70's Progressive rock group with big ideas,for those who haven't heard of them) I kept 'hearing' the bit where the needle jumped a track.
They do say the first recording you hear is the one you like best, (needle skips aside), Maybe I just need to listen to the new recording a bit more,it really isn't THAT bad (joking!)!!!
  Regarding the Unicorn cd. I wasn't being entirely serious about it being 'Snowdon' Vandermolen,but thanks for telling me. It seems you've been higher than me. My highest summit so far,mountain wise is 'Carningli' in North Pembrokeshire. Eat your heart out Edmund Hillary!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 16, 2011, 06:58:17 AM
I have known and cherished the LSSO performance for 30 years. But after listening to the Brabbins around 10 times now, there is no question in my mind which performance I'll be listening to in the future. It's not perfect, but it comes close. For instance - the trumpet, 'far away in the distance' as the score demands, isn't far away at all, which diminishes the magic a bit. And the violin solo sounds more vulnerable in the LSSO performance. But taken as a whole, Brabbins' Tenth belongs to that very small group of Brian performances which really get to the heart of what this music is and how it should move and sound.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 07:14:59 AM
I think you're right. In fact I KNOW you're right,it's just that 'storm' sequence & that eerie moment of calm that follows. Another couple of listens should do the trick. (And this is someone who actually prefers Bryden Thomson Bax cycle to Vernon Handley's!!!)
Perhaps I shouldn't have ordered those Hull Youth SO recordings after all.
(Even if the cd copy they send ACTUALLY works).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 16, 2011, 07:25:57 AM
Here is John Whitmore, who took part in that historic LSSO recording of the Tenth, playing the violin:


Now for the verdict on the 10th. The LSSO acoustic was very dry and unforgiving. A bit more glow would have masked some of the intonation issues. The new one is a bit too washy for my tastes and the horns and brass are often lost in the texture. Somewhere between the two would be perfect. The playing on the new disc is, of course, much superior to a load of kids who weren't even music students but interpretively speaking I prefer sections of the LSSO as follows:

1) The pppp section before the storm is riveting by the LSSO. Brabbins doesn't achieve the stillness required. There's no feeling that something catastrophic is about to come.

2) The storm section is hair raising in the LSSO and quite sedate in the new recording. Those piercing trumpets and trombones are swamped in the acoustic and have no bite. It's all a bit tame.

3) Just before the return of the violin solo there is the famous chord that "stares sphinx like" according to Bob Simpson. The LSSO get this just right and it's a hair raising moment. With Brabbins it's just a passing chord with no feeling of doom or isolation about it.


4) The fact that the LSSO are stretched gives the music a sort of primitive feeling and there is the sense of sitting on the edge of a precipice all the time. This doesn't come through in the new version because the playing is so good that the sense of danger is missing.Overall, a lovely disc and I like it a lot. I still think that there is a place for both versions which is great testament to the LSSO. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 16, 2011, 07:29:19 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 07:14:59 AM
(And this is someone who actually prefers Bryden Thomson Bax cycle to Vernon Handley's!!!)

So, perhaps, do I!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 09:42:15 AM
'John Whitmore' quite obviously knows allot more about it than I do & it's rather reassuring from a listeners point of view that he has almost exactly the same reservations about certain aspects of the new recording as I do. Although 'reservations' probably isn't the right word because there really isn't much about the new performance to complain about. Some people might even call it 'nit picking', I suppose! I mean,let's face it,you can't place this in the same category as the awful, (well I think so), Naxos recording of Brian's Symphony No 2 v the Mackerras performance. And I really can't understand why anyone would prefer any aspect of THAT to the Mackerras recording. But maybe some would?
On the other hand,we all have different opinions & react in different ways. I know that the 'famous' Naxos performance of the 'Gothic' had it's share of ungrateful critics. Personally I hated it so much it nearly put me off Brian for years. To this day my favourite performance is the one by Ole Schmidt,but I know that allot of people would disagree with me. Some composers are of course even unluckier than Brian. Charles Tournemire's lovely Second Symphony,for example,which is at the mercy of one pretty lousy Marco Polo cd,yet the wonderful scoring somehow filters through despite the odds.
   As to Bryden Thomson,whatever the critics say,he's hardly incompetent. I personally like the way his more lesiurely conducting allows Bax's gorgeous orchestral textures & moods more time to 'breathe'. I feel that Thomson is more in tune with Bax's romantic,yearning moods. And................I could go on,but this is not the place to talk about Bax,is it,except to add my admiration for an underrated & very adventurous conductor who did a heck of allot to bring Bax & other neglected composers to a wider audience. I also wish he'd been able to get around to recording the symphonies of my fellow country man, Daniel Jones. Alas!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 16, 2011, 10:01:24 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 05:41:25 AM
As to the LSSO of the 10th,I think you just get so used to hearing a particular recording in your head,and unlike some other works by other British composers,there hasn't exactly been allot of choice. Another point too,this thing about hearing a particular recording 'in your head' reminds me of the R3 broadcast of the Ole Schmidt 'Gothic',when I was a teenager. I recorded the broadcast on cassette & like some teenagers on an old 'piano key' type mono cassette recorder positioned in front of the radio. Somehow the second tape got damaged or the recording went wrong. When I finally secured a recording of the entire symphony from a HB member. For years I kept 'hearing' the break where the C90 cassette side ended.

I had a similar experience with my first Gothic, which was just the Lenard, on cassette (don't ask why, but it was my first Brian, and I didn't know what to expect!) The female voices which begin the Judex - that initial cluster, as it crescendoed, had a horrible veering sharpwards and then back again over the course of a second or less. But, such is the extent to which I wore out that tape, it took me a long time to unlearn this!

Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 05:41:25 AMA less subtle example & dangerously off topic,perhaps? When I finally replaced my old LP of Emerson Lake & Palmer's 'Pictures of an Exhibition' (a very ott 70's Progressive rock group with big ideas,for those who haven't heard of them) I kept 'hearing' the bit where the needle jumped a track.

Again, something similar for me - my first Planets was the Halle/Loughran one, and it was a needle skip in Neptune, one of those already-repetitive swaying chord patterns, so that the skipping almost fit. I liked that one..!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2011, 10:46:49 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 16, 2011, 03:05:24 AM
:D I do hope you will all meet & reunite around the Gothic in July. Regretfully, I won't be there. But definitely next time!  ;)

I'm hopeful that you wont be able to escape a reunion in the near future.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 16, 2011, 10:51:36 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 16, 2011, 10:01:24 AM
Again, something similar for me - my first Planets was the Halle/Loughran one, and it was a needle skip in Neptune, one of those already-repetitive swaying chord patterns, so that the skipping almost fit. I liked that one..!

Hah!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2011, 11:35:34 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 05:41:25 AM
'Dundonell' is before my time as a 'poster' on this message board,but I have found some of his posts very useful when I have been trying to find out something about a particular work or composer.
As to the LSSO of the 10th,I think you just get so used to hearing a particular recording in your head,and unlike some other works by other British composers,there hasn't exactly been allot of choice. Another point too,this thing about hearing a particular recording 'in your head' reminds me of the R3 broadcast of the Ole Schmidt 'Gothic',when I was a teenager. I recorded the broadcast on cassette & like some teenagers on an old 'piano key' type mono cassette recorder positioned in front of the radio. Somehow the second tape got damaged or the recording went wrong. When I finally secured a recording of the entire symphony from a HB member. For years I kept 'hearing' the break where the C90 cassette side ended.
A less subtle example & dangerously off topic,perhaps? When I finally replaced my old LP of Emerson Lake & Palmer's 'Pictures of an Exhibition' (a very ott 70's Progressive rock group with big ideas,for those who haven't heard of them) I kept 'hearing' the bit where the needle jumped a track.
They do say the first recording you hear is the one you like best, (needle skips aside), Maybe I just need to listen to the new recording a bit more,it really isn't THAT bad (joking!)!!!
  Regarding the Unicorn cd. I wasn't being entirely serious about it being 'Snowdon' Vandermolen,but thanks for telling me. It seems you've been higher than me. My highest summit so far,mountain wise is 'Carningli' in North Pembrokeshire. Eat your heart out Edmund Hillary!

Oh yes, Emerson Lake and Palmer's 'Pictures at an Exhibition' I had the LP. The inscription 'Mussorgsky/Lake' at the end of tracks struck me as hilariously pretentious even as a teenager.  I agree with you about Bryden Thomson and prefer his Bax cycle to the Vernon Handley too. Of the 25 CD recordings of Walton's 1st Symphony that I possess (it's known as Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder), the Bryden Thomson on Chandos is probably the best and there are many other great recordings too (VW Symphony 4, 6 and 9) Elgar's 'Music Makers' etcetc. Alexander Gibson is another underrated conducted -wonderful in Sibelius, VW No 5 is one of the best. I have almost certainly not been mountaineering higher than you! I am definitely an armchair explorer. Putting a CD on is about the most strenuous thing I do! Getting back to HB - I think that the new Dutton CD ranks with Stanley Bates symphonies 3 and 4 and Richard Arnell's symphonies 3-5 as my most treasured CDs.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 16, 2011, 11:43:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 16, 2011, 11:35:34 AM
Oh yes, Emerson Lake and Palmer's 'Pictures at an Exhibition' I had the LP. The inscription 'Mussorgsky/Lake' at the end of tracks struck me as hilariously pretentious even as a teenager.

Heavens! I'd clean forgotten that . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2011, 12:12:09 PM
Quote from: Apollon on March 16, 2011, 11:43:29 AM
Heavens! I'd clean forgotten that . . . .

So had I until cilgwyn's post!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 16, 2011, 12:13:50 PM
I think the main reason I prefer the 'new' Tenth to the old one has less to do with the merits of the orchestras concerned. The LSSO did a terrific job. That I have played their recording innumerable times the past 30 years says it all.


No, the thing that swings it for me is simply the conductor. Brabbins has a finer grasp of the Brian style. And he has an excellent sense of pace. One example out of many - at the beginning, just after the opening has ended, you immediately get a change in atmosphere:- a solo oboe and a muttering bassoon have a weird dialogue, 6 bars long, whilst a flute sings in the heights. In the Loughran the tempo is slower than Brian stipulates, making the whole thing sound ponderous. I always subconsciously skipped this passage and saw it as just a bridge to more appealing matter. But Brabbins plays it as Brian wrote it, and now you feel the tempo of the opening still present behind it, you feel that the story is continuing...


Brian once said of Delius' 'Mass of Life': Plot is always with us. And this is exactly what Brabbyns does - he tells a story, everything is subservient to an overarching view of the work. That's why the fact that certain things don't 'stand out' as spectacularly as in the LSSO performance don't matter too much to me - I feel at the end we have been on a very coherent journey, in spite of all the dazzling variety.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2011, 12:14:18 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 16, 2011, 07:25:57 AM
Here is John Whitmore, who took part in that historic LSSO recording of the Tenth, playing the violin:


Now for the verdict on the 10th. The LSSO acoustic was very dry and unforgiving. A bit more glow would have masked some of the intonation issues. The new one is a bit too washy for my tastes and the horns and brass are often lost in the texture. Somewhere between the two would be perfect. The playing on the new disc is, of course, much superior to a load of kids who weren't even music students but interpretively speaking I prefer sections of the LSSO as follows:

1) The pppp section before the storm is riveting by the LSSO. Brabbins doesn't achieve the stillness required. There's no feeling that something catastrophic is about to come.

2) The storm section is hair raising in the LSSO and quite sedate in the new recording. Those piercing trumpets and trombones are swamped in the acoustic and have no bite. It's all a bit tame.

3) Just before the return of the violin solo there is the famous chord that "stares sphinx like" according to Bob Simpson. The LSSO get this just right and it's a hair raising moment. With Brabbins it's just a passing chord with no feeling of doom or isolation about it.


4) The fact that the LSSO are stretched gives the music a sort of primitive feeling and there is the sense of sitting on the edge of a precipice all the time. This doesn't come through in the new version because the playing is so good that the sense of danger is missing.Overall, a lovely disc and I like it a lot. I still think that there is a place for both versions which is great testament to the LSSO.

How very interesting - thanks for posting this.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 12:16:04 PM
Glad I'm not the only Bryden Thomson admirer in the world. His 'time' may come,yet! I know that some speak well of his V-W! I recently invested in some Barbirolli cd's,another conductor who is supposed to have been prone to indulge a little too much. Now I can't enough!
Regarding ELP's 'Pictures'. I remember we were listening to a broadcast of someone playing Beethoven or some great composer, I forget who, and getting annoyed by all the coughing. I remembered the,by comparison, hushed silence while Greg Lake,or was it Keith Emerson was singing some terrible words to Mussorgsky on the ELP album & thinking well,no one's going to distract a genius like that with a bit of coughing,but poor old Beethoven.!
I've been meaning to buy the cd for years,but for some reason never do. Maybe one fine day!
Incidentally,I understand that Jimi Hendrix considered joining them at one point. The new line up would have been,appropriately, HELP!
Alexander Gibson! I remember actually buying cd's of his Sibelius symphony in Boots the Chemist,of all places.  I love VW & I shall have to hear his Fifth.
One conductor I can't stand is Bernstein,except in American music,maybe. He was such so big headed. Although I read recently that he was interested in conducting the 'Gothic'. If ths IS true he has definately gone up a jot in my estimation.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2011, 12:16:22 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 16, 2011, 12:13:50 PM
I think the main reason I prefer the 'new' Tenth to the old one has less to do with the merits of the orchestras concerned. The LSSO did a terrific job. That I have played their recording innumerable times the past 30 years says it all.


No, the thing that swings it for me is simply the conductor. Brabbins has a finer grasp of the Brian style. And he has an excellent sense of pace. One example out of many - at the beginning, just after the opening has ended, you immediately get a change in atmosphere:- a solo oboe and a muttering bassoon have a weird dialogue, 6 bars long, whilst a flute sings in the heights. In the Loughran the tempo is slower than Brian stipulates, making the whole thing sound ponderous. I always subconsciously skipped this passage and saw it as just a bridge to more appealing matter. But Brabbins plays it as Brian wrote it, and now you feel the tempo of the opening still present behind it, you feel that the story is continuing...


Brian once said of Delius' 'Mass of Life': Plot is always with us. And this is exactly what Brabbyns does - he tells a story, everything is subservient to an overarching view of the work. That's why the fact that certain things don't 'stand out' as spectacularly as in the LSSO performance don't matter too much to me - I feel at the end we have been on a very coherent journey, in spite of all the dazzling variety.

I can't follow the score but this rings true to me of the new recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 12:18:05 PM
IS it true?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2011, 12:21:05 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 12:16:04 PM
Glad I'm not the only Bryden Thomson admirer in the world. His 'time' may come,yet! I know that some speak well of his V-W! I recently invested in some Barbirolli cd's,another conductor who is supposed to have been prone to indulge a little too much. Now I can't enough!
Regarding ELP's 'Pictures'. I remember we were listening to a broadcast of someone playing Beethoven or some great composer, I forget who, and getting annoyed by all the coughing. I remembered the,by comparison, hushed silence while Greg Lake,or was it Keith Emerson was singing some terrible words to Mussorgsky on the ELP album & thinking well,no one's going to distract a genius like that with a bit of coughing,but poor old Beethoven.!
I've been meaning to buy the cd for years,but for some reason never do. Maybe one fine day!
Incidentally,I understand that Jimi Hendrix considered joining them at one point. The new line up would have been,appropriately, HELP!
Alexander Gibson! I remember actually buying cd's of his Sibelius symphony in Boots the Chemist,of all places.  I love VW & I shall have to hear his Fifth.
One conductor I can't stand is Bernstein,except in American music,maybe. He was such so big headed. Although I read recently that he was interested in conducting the 'Gothic'. If ths IS true he has definately gone up a jot in my estimation.

OT. There is an excellent EMI double CD including Paavo Berglund's great performance of VW Symphony No 6 (there are very few good recordings of this work IMHO) and Alexander Gibson's recording of Symphony No 5 - with one of the most moving slow movewments of all. Barbirolli was very good in both these works too (EMI/Orfeo).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 12:26:44 PM
Ok! Once the Beethoven Sixth, (Karajan dg 1963,since we're talking about conductors) finishes I'm defiately bunging the  Brabbins 'Brian 10' back on. Roll over Beethoven. (For a while,anyway).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 16, 2011, 12:27:52 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 12:26:44 PM
Ok! Once the Beethoven Sixth, (Karajan dg 1963,since we're talking about conductors) finishes I'm defiately bunging the  Brabbins 'Brian 10' back on. Roll over Beethoven. (For a while,anyway).


Very good. Report back!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 12:33:04 PM
Yes,I have the Barbirolli,coupled with 'Tintagel'. Wish he'd recorded,or been able,to record more Bax. Oh well! Off to have a bit of supper now.
NB: Thanks for the cd tips! Berglund would certainly be an interesting choice for VW!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 16, 2011, 12:42:05 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 12:33:04 PM
Yes,I have the Barbirolli,coupled with 'Tintagel'. Wish he'd recorded,or been able,to record more Bax. Oh well! Off to have a bit of supper now.
NB: Thanks for the cd tips! Berglund would certainly be an interesting choice for VW!

OT

Well, we'll let you have some supper - here is the link:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vaughan-Williams-Symphonies-Nos-Ralph/dp/B0018OAP2U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300307809&sr=1-1
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 16, 2011, 05:55:45 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2011, 12:16:04 PM
Glad I'm not the only Bryden Thomson admirer in the world. His 'time' may come,yet! I know that some speak well of his V-W!

Completely OOT in this `great reunification of weird old men (like I am ) in love with even weirder Havergal Brian symphonies' thread - but I happen to do.

Thomson's RVW cycle is my personal favourite, among them all. A pity he didn't live to do a complete HB cycle as well.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 16, 2011, 06:25:14 PM
I think it's astonishing that a composer like Havergal Brian, who is hardly acknowledged as one of the 20th Century's greatest composers, has this many pages in a thread when someone like Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg, Ravel, Debussy, Janacek, Sibelius, etc. don't have that many at all? I don't think Brian is a terrible composer, so don't think I'm trying to be negative here just for the sake of it. I just think that his importance is of little significance compared to the composers I mentioned above.

Is the Gothic a huge symphonic work? Yes. Does it take half of the population of China to play it? Well...not really, but you might as well throw them in too, because you won't be able to hear them because the orchestration is thicker than pea soup. :P Does this mean that it can stand against such masterpieces as Mahler's 9th or Sibelius' 7th? Absolutely not. My point is that Brian's music has limited appeal, but it is hard to not be moved by some of the sections in Gothic. I just wonder why hasn't a better commercial recording come along of this symphony? Is the symphony so vast that it can't be captured live? I think with all of the modern technology we have today, this symphony could be performed and recorded much better. Since this symphony takes two orchestras: why not get the LSO and the CBSO together and I know it takes many choirs, so get these two orchestra's choirs and whatever else they need to together? On paper it seems like an impossible task, but it could be done. Cut the record in a cathedral where you can hold a huge orchestra and then....oh God who I'm kidding! We're lucky we even have a studio recording of it at all! Damn Brian and his giant ass symphony! :P

Sorry for the rant here folks, the meds haven't kicked in yet.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on March 17, 2011, 01:13:59 AM
I love Brian but almost never listen to the Gothic. Some people can't seem to get past it - I find his later style (which is no less personal and individual than the composers you mention) more to my taste.

I don't really care for the supposed heirachy of composers. I'll acknowledge that a lot of people seem keen on it, but I'd sooner listen to Brian's symphonies than Schubert's.

Edit: elaboration, plus nice reply Jezetha :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 17, 2011, 01:15:18 AM
"I think it's astonishing that a composer like Havergal Brian, who is hardly acknowledged as one of the 20th Century's greatest composers, has this many pages in a thread when someone like Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg, Ravel, Debussy, Janacek, Sibelius, etc. don't have that many at all? I don't think Brian is a terrible composer, so don't think I'm trying to be negative here just for the sake of it. I just think that his importance is of little significance compared to the composers I mentioned above."

The indubitably great composers you mention don't have so many pages for the simple fact that their reputation has been made and is unassailable. They are so present, that we can't imagine them NOT being acknowledged as great. The time before they were a 'name' has long been forgotten. They have entered the canon.

Not so with Brian. During his lifetime he was mostly ignored, for a whole host of reasons. Brian had no connections and was socially awkward. The First World War brought the ascendency of Stravinsky and Schoenberg (to put it simply), and music that was a less conspicuously revolutionary development from several strands of nineteenth-century music was considered passé, as Progress was all. Now, in 2011, Havergal Brian is one of the best-known of the more obscure composers, mainly because of the 'Gothic'. The scale of his achievement is still unclear, as the vicious cycle of 'they don't play him, so he mustn't be any good, so we won't programme him' makes the discovery almost impossible.

Fortunately, there has been Robert Simpson, who was able to promote Brian's work at the BBC. That all the symphonies have been played at least once is due to him. And enthusiasts like me have taken the trouble - no trouble, really! - of taking Brian seriously and listen to everything that has been recorded and reading most of the things that have been written about his music. And when you have done that, and have lived with the music, there can be no doubt that Brian at his best has given us a few of the strongest and most original symphonies of the 20th century. And I don't mention the operas, because most of them are still terra incognita.

So, in conclusion - Brian is a great composer, but he still needs the advocacy. And that's why he gets all these pages here. With Stravinsky et al all you have to do is discuss recordings and performances. You don't have to prove Stravinsky's worth, because that work has already been done. But Brian is not in that position. And that's why his case still has to be fought for. Which I, and others, like to do...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 17, 2011, 01:29:14 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 16, 2011, 06:25:14 PM
I think it's astonishing that a composer like Havergal Brian, who is hardly acknowledged as one of the 20th Century's greatest composers, has this many pages in a thread when someone like Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg, Ravel, Debussy, Janacek, Sibelius, etc. don't have that many at all? I don't think Brian is a terrible composer, so don't think I'm trying to be negative here just for the sake of it. I just think that his importance is of little significance compared to the composers I mentioned above.

Is the Gothic a huge symphonic work? Yes. Does it take half of the population of China to play it? Well...not really, but you might as well throw them in too, because you won't be able to hear them because the orchestration is thicker than pea soup. :P Does this mean that it can stand against such masterpieces as Mahler's 9th or Sibelius' 7th? Absolutely not. My point is that Brian's music has limited appeal, but it is hard to not be moved by some of the sections in Gothic. I just wonder why hasn't a better commercial recording come along of this symphony? Is the symphony so vast that it can't be captured live? I think with all of the modern technology we have today, this symphony could be performed and recorded much better. Since this symphony takes two orchestras: why not get the LSO and the CBSO together and I know it takes many choirs, so get these two orchestra's choirs and whatever else they need to together? On paper it seems like an impossible task, but it could be done. Cut the record in a cathedral where you can hold a huge orchestra and then....oh God who I'm kidding! We're lucky we even have a studio recording of it at all! Damn Brian and his giant ass symphony! :P

Sorry for the rant here folks, the meds haven't kicked in yet.
Yesterday, I was just thinking how this is one of my favorite threads on the forums. People are genuinely excited about the composer and that excitement is infectious. People are postive - I was thinking how all the 'nay-sayers' had somehow missed this thread and the thread was the stronger for it. I love how much I am learning from everything being posted. And though I have never heard the tenth, it has been fascinating to listen to the comparisons between the two versions dicsussed. And all of this in a civil manner too!

All I can say is, I hope it continues. Love this thread!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 17, 2011, 02:03:21 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 16, 2011, 06:25:14 PM
I think it's astonishing that a composer like Havergal Brian, who is hardly acknowledged as one of the 20th Century's greatest composers, has this many pages in a thread when someone like Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg, Ravel, Debussy, Janacek, Sibelius, etc. don't have that many at all? I don't think Brian is a terrible composer, so don't think I'm trying to be negative here just for the sake of it. I just think that his importance is of little significance compared to the composers I mentioned above.

In that little list of composers you mention some absolute giants, including two composers who will forever be right at the top of my own personal list of 'soulmate' composers (Janacek, Ravel*). Nevertheless, I quite understand why a thread such as this one can grow and grow, whilst ones for more established composers remain fairly stunted. It's partly for the reasons Johan and others give - essentially that there's so much to say about Brian, so many issues to be discussed, the vast body of music, much of it almost terra incognita but enough of it known, especially by the more intrepid Brianites here, for its quality to be well established; excitement about new recordings, performances, rumours of them too... rumours of a new Sibelius symphony recording are never going to be as exciting, are they?

There's also the fact that Brian is a symphonist, and symphonies to tend to garner a lot of attention. Of the composers you mention as not getting threads the length they deserve, Janacek isn't a symphonist. Ravel isn't. Debussy isn't. Bartok isn't. Stravinksy isn't, Schoenberg isn't. But Sibelius is and - guess what! - actually he does have a pretty long thread, doesn't he? So a composer of 32 symphonies, whose admirers are very passionate and whose work and its promulgation have so many facets worth discussion - of course he gets a long thread. And, as mentioned above, it's one of the finest threads on the board, too...

* what's odd is that Brian is on that list too, and so is Tippett....the fastidious Ravel fits rather oddly with that bunch!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 17, 2011, 03:00:51 AM
I've been listening to the new CD of the Brian Symphony No.10. This is the only Brian work that has any interest for me personally and I really admire it. None of his other music really does a lot for me (Oops, please don't shoot me Johan!!). I thought I would like to add a comment to this very interesting thread. I think Brabbins must know the LSSO version because it is very similar - but with proper tone and intonation!! This is superb but I still think the kids did a great job and they are outclassed but not disgraced. Now for my own verdict on the 10th, if you allow me. The LSSO acoustic was very dry and unforgiving - De Montfort Hall is beautiful when listening live but as a recording venue it doesn't work. A bit more glow would have masked some of the intonation issues. The new CD is a bit too washy for my tastes and the horns and brass are often lost in the texture. Somewhere between the two would be perfect. The playing on the new disc is, of course, much superior to a load of kids who weren't even music students but interpretively speaking I prefer sections of the LSSO as follows:
1) The pppp section before the storm is riveting by the LSSO. Brabbins doesn't achieve the stillness required. There's no feeling that something catastrophic is about to come.
2) The storm section is like all hell broke loose in the LSSO and quite sedate in the new recording. Those piercing trumpets and trombones are swamped in the acoustic and have no bite. It's all a bit tame.
3) Just before the return of the violin solo there is the chord that "stares sphinx like" according to Bob Simpson (now there's a great composer!). The LSSO get this just right and it's a hair raising moment. With Brabbins it's just a passing chord with no feeling of doom or isolation about it.
4) The fact that the LSSO are stretched gives the music a sort of primitive feeling and there is the sense of sitting on the edge of a   precipice all the time. This doesn't come through in the new version because the playing is so good that the sense of danger is missing.
Overall, a fine new disc and I like it a lot. I still think that there is a place for both versions which is great testament to the LSSO. I still recall the LSSO rehearsals quite vividly and remember how shocking the parts were. Mistakes all over the place and impossible page turns. In summary I think that the LSSO version has a feeling of discovery and an epic occasion to it. Despite the superior professional playing offered by Dutton this feeling of something special is, in my humble opinion, missing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 17, 2011, 04:23:59 AM
I see that Johan already posted the comments I made to him via email about the Brian 10 CD. Sorry to duplicate effort here. By the way, I'm the bloke who put the Unknown Warrior and Brian 10/LSSO Reunion clips up on YouTube. One final comment - Bob Simpson was superb with his support of the LSSO/Brian LP sessions and the brilliant Angus McKenzie gave him terrific technical back up. Brian was a nice change from the usual LSSO diet of Tippett, Ives and Hindemith but the music was only rehearsed fleetingly for the De Montfort sessions. The symphomies weren't part of the orchestra's regular repertoire. I recall No.21 having a run out at Loughborough but No.10 never saw the light of day. Just run throughs in Birstall and the De Montfort Hall session. To be blunt the LSSO were chosen because they were cheap and capable of giving it a shot without much fuss and limited time.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 17, 2011, 04:31:43 AM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on March 17, 2011, 04:23:59 AM
I see that Johan already posted the comments I made to him via email about the Brian 10 CD. Sorry to duplicate effort here. By the way, I'm the bloke who put the Unknown Warrior and Brian 10/LSSO Reunion clips up on YouTube. One final comment - Bob Simpson was superb with his support of the LSSO/Brian LP sessions and the brilliant Angus McKenzie gave him terrific technical back up. Brian was a nice change from the usual LSSO diet of Tippett, Ives and Hindemith but the music was only rehearsed fleetingly for the De Montfort sessions. The symphomies weren't part of the orchestra's regular repertoire. I recall No.21 having a run out at Loughborough but No.10 never saw the light of day. Just run throughs in Bistrall and the De Montfort Hall session. To be blunt the LSSO were chosen because they were cheap and capable of giving it a shot without much fuss and limited time.

I don't mind the duplication - it's great you took the trouble of signing on in the first place, John! And now the comment is more authentic, as the horse's mouth itself is here...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 17, 2011, 04:42:45 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 17, 2011, 02:03:21 AM
In that little list of composers you mention some absolute giants, including two composers who will forever be right at the top of my own personal list of 'soulmate' composers (Janacek, Ravel*). Nevertheless, I quite understand why a thread such as this one can grow and grow, whilst ones for more established composers remain fairly stunted. It's partly for the reasons Johan and others give - essentially that there's so much to say about Brian, so many issues to be discussed, the vast body of music, much of it almost terra incognita but enough of it known, especially by the more intrepid Brianites here, for its quality to be well established; excitement about new recordings, performances, rumours of them too... rumours of a new Sibelius symphony recording are never going to be as exciting, are they?

Hard to imagine they would be, since the whole Sibelius cycle (and deservedly) has been recorded, repeatedly, in many parts of the world.

Quote from: LukeThere's also the fact that Brian is a symphonist, and symphonies to tend to garner a lot of attention. Of the composers you mention as not getting threads the length they deserve, Janacek isn't a symphonist. Ravel isn't. Debussy isn't. Bartok isn't. Stravinksy isn't, Schoenberg isn't. But Sibelius is and - guess what! - actually he does have a pretty long thread, doesn't he? So a composer of 32 symphonies, whose admirers are very passionate and whose work and its promulgation have so many facets worth discussion - of course he gets a long thread. And, as mentioned above, it's one of the finest threads on the board, too...

There must be a multi-textured answer here, but it is curious how symphony-centric The Turf in general, and GMG in particular, can trend.

Quote from: Luke* what's odd is that Brian is on that list too, and so is Tippett....the fastidious Ravel fits rather oddly with that bunch!)

But any list other, would not be you, mon ami ; )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 17, 2011, 06:25:05 AM
The new Dutton performance of No 10 is very impressive,but after much deliberation the earlier LSSO performance clinches it for me for precisely the reasons 'John' outlines better han I ever could.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 17, 2011, 06:26:44 AM
'than I ever could'! This is what happens when you're trying to do two things at once!
Anyway,it's the LSSO for me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 17, 2011, 06:46:08 AM
Well its good that my unmedicated rant could stir up some more interesting discussion. :D I have read all the points-of-view and I'll have to dig my Brian recordings back out. I definitely want to hear the Gothic again anyway.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 17, 2011, 06:53:03 AM
@cilgwyn I can understand your preference. Hopefully, in 2050, a third performance comes around which will satisfy us all... ;)

@MI Avoid those meds and join us more often.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 17, 2011, 08:05:50 AM
It's a pity that the great Eric Pinkett isn't around. He could look at this thread and record it again!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 17, 2011, 08:32:27 AM
By the way,  somebody in an earlier post compares Brian 10 to the Symphony in One Movement (now called Symphony No.1) by Robin Orr. By pure coincidence the LSSO also played this under the baton of Norman Del Mar. The concert at Fairfield Hall, Croydon also included Checkmate by Bliss and Rawsthorne's Piano Concerto No.2. Alexander Gibson recorded this symphony for EMI but it doesn't really do the Scottish National much justice. It was probably just one of those days with a muddled recording and less than exciting playing. I have two versions that I taped many years ago and they can be found at a link I shared with Johan if you are interested (I can't work out how to add a link to this post!!). This is a taut, tuneful symphony with an excellent structure. The fizzimg string writing is a delight and the use of the timps is superb. It has a few Brian moments as well.......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 17, 2011, 08:36:21 AM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on March 17, 2011, 08:32:27 AM
By the way,  somebody in an earlier post compares Brian 10 to the Symphony in One Movement (now called Symphony No.1) by Robin Orr. By pure coincidence the LSSO also played this under the baton of Norman Del Mar. The concert at Fairfield Hall, Croydon also included Checkmate by Bliss and Rawsthorne's Piano Concerto No.2. Alexander Gibson recorded this symphony for EMI but it doesn't really do the Scottish National much justice. It was probably just one of those days with a muddled recording and less than exciting playing. I have two versions that I taped many years ago and they can be found at a link I shared with Johan if you are interested (I can't work out how to add a link to this post!!). This is a taut, tuneful symphony with an excellent structure. The fizzimg string writing is a delight and the use of the timps is superb. It has a few Brian moments as well.......


I'll help you out, John...


http://www.mediafire.com/?2bpq9932w1hl9 (http://www.mediafire.com/?2bpq9932w1hl9)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 17, 2011, 09:05:06 AM
Yes,Eric Pinkett with a professional orchestra,I like the idea. But would it have been as good? Sadly,we'll never know. Although maybe,one day,I'll get my Bryden Thomson Daniel Jones cycle,because he recorded allot,if not all of them for the BBC. Come on Dutton/ Testament,I'll buy them!!!
Have to say 'Mirror image' this debate has been going on for a very,very long time over the years & long before the internet. Over the years I've read all sorts of horrible things about Brian's supporters,not to mention his music. David Hurwitz's was one of the most memorable. According to him we're all bald,have rotten teeth & suffer from 'halitosis',if memory serves me correctly!!!!! He does seem to like some of his music though!
Here's to the 1,000.000th post!

NB: The debate here is certainly more genteel than some of the posts elsewhere regarding Henry Cowell. It strikes me that Cowell was someone who strove deperately hard to be a 20th c original all,or most of his life,yet ultimately failed,(even though I quite like his eleventh symphony!!!) Brian,on the other hand,merely had to crack his knuckles to be an original.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 17, 2011, 09:08:04 AM
I'll just have a look for me false teef now!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 17, 2011, 09:35:30 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 17, 2011, 09:08:04 AM
I'll just have a look for me false teef now!

They're over here.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 17, 2011, 10:41:07 AM
Johan, how did you do the linky thing to the Robin Orr? I'm impressed. Have you listened to it yet?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 17, 2011, 10:48:01 AM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on March 17, 2011, 10:41:07 AM
Johan, how did you do the linky thing to the Robin Orr? I'm impressed. Have you listened to it yet?


Will grab a bite shortly, but okay - when you write a post, you see a window. You can see a line of smileys and above them several icons - if you click on the third from the left, you get to paste a hyperlink. The second one from the left is for images.


As for Orr - haven't had the time yet...


Dinner!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 17, 2011, 11:00:32 AM
I'm pretty certain I've got an off air recording of the 'Orr' symphony on ye olde cassette somewhere. I will have a look for it (& click on that link!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 17, 2011, 11:42:07 AM
Just been having another scan through this thread. Bryden (Jack) Thomson, by the way, was a supreme professional. Orchestras loved him and he was very charming. The sort of bloke you would have a night out in the pub with (ditto Sir John). His way with Nielsen is well worth a listen. He was also a magnificent accompanist and had the ability to work very quickly and think on his feet. I put him in that category of unassuming pros - you know, Pritchard, Del Mar, Gibson etc. I'm no huge fan of Bax but of the three sets I seem to have accumulated I have a sneaking regard for Thomson and also for Lloyd-Jones. Handley is also very fine but I prefer his ancient LPs with the Guildford Phil. Pity they haven't resurfaced.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: not edward on March 17, 2011, 04:54:44 PM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on March 17, 2011, 11:42:07 AM
His way with Nielsen is well worth a listen.
Minor orchestra or not, I think that his recording of the 6th is something very special, one of the few I've heard turn its somewhat cranky and eccentric design into a thoroughly convincing narrative. And from the way they play on this recording, it's clear the sometimes wilful RSNO has bought completely into his vision of the work. A great recording, and I say this as someone who emphatically dislikes his Martinu set with the same orchestra.

If he could conduct a Nielsen Sixth like that, I do wonder what he could have done with Brian's often similarly cranky symphonies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 17, 2011, 05:36:47 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 17, 2011, 06:53:03 AM@MI Avoid those meds and join us more often.

Maybe I will, maybe I will.  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 18, 2011, 08:28:53 AM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on March 17, 2011, 03:00:51 AM
I've been listening to the new CD of the Brian Symphony No.10. This is the only Brian work that has any interest for me personally and I really admire it. None of his other music really does a lot for me (Oops, please don't shoot me Johan!!). I thought I would like to add a comment to this very interesting thread. I think Brabbins must know the LSSO version because it is very similar - but with proper tone and intonation!! This is superb but I still think the kids did a great job and they are outclassed but not disgraced. Now for my own verdict on the 10th, if you allow me. The LSSO acoustic was very dry and unforgiving - De Montfort Hall is beautiful when listening live but as a recording venue it doesn't work. A bit more glow would have masked some of the intonation issues. The new CD is a bit too washy for my tastes and the horns and brass are often lost in the texture. Somewhere between the two would be perfect. The playing on the new disc is, of course, much superior to a load of kids who weren't even music students but interpretively speaking I prefer sections of the LSSO as follows:
1) The pppp section before the storm is riveting by the LSSO. Brabbins doesn't achieve the stillness required. There's no feeling that something catastrophic is about to come.
2) The storm section is like all hell broke loose in the LSSO and quite sedate in the new recording. Those piercing trumpets and trombones are swamped in the acoustic and have no bite. It's all a bit tame.
3) Just before the return of the violin solo there is the chord that "stares sphinx like" according to Bob Simpson (now there's a great composer!). The LSSO get this just right and it's a hair raising moment. With Brabbins it's just a passing chord with no feeling of doom or isolation about it.
4) The fact that the LSSO are stretched gives the music a sort of primitive feeling and there is the sense of sitting on the edge of a   precipice all the time. This doesn't come through in the new version because the playing is so good that the sense of danger is missing.
Overall, a fine new disc and I like it a lot. I still think that there is a place for both versions which is great testament to the LSSO. I still recall the LSSO rehearsals quite vividly and remember how shocking the parts were. Mistakes all over the place and impossible page turns. In summary I think that the LSSO version has a feeling of discovery and an epic occasion to it. Despite the superior professional playing offered by Dutton this feeling of something special is, in my humble opinion, missing.

I'm surprised that if you like No 10 that you don't like 8 and 9 too as I find the idiom and appeal very similar.  No 8 is a masterpiece in my opinion.  Certainly Harold Truscott (the composer of another granitic Symphony which might appeal to Brianites) saw symphonies 8 to 10 as belonging together. I mentioned the Orr Symphony which I really like. It has a similar epic granitic feel but like Brian's No 10 is short - in one movement. Even more like Brian is Chavez's granitic Symphony No 4 - but other might disagree (although disagreement is rare on this forum  ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 18, 2011, 08:33:33 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on March 17, 2011, 01:13:59 AM
I love Brian but almost never listen to the Gothic. Some people can't seem to get past it . . . .

Some folks are like that with L'oiseau de feu, for Stravinsky.

I have more absorption of the Gothic ahead of me, but  I enjoyed the later symphonies in the other Naxos disc I fetched in even better in some ways.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2011, 08:37:46 AM
We'll have start a Bryden Thomson Appreciation Society. Haven't heard his Martinu.but much as I admire his work I can't really see him in that repertory. But then again maybe in the more relaxed symphonies? Sometimes the least critically rated  recordings turn out to be the most interesting. So,maybe I will take the plunge later on in the year. My own Martinu symphony cycle is the BIS Jarvi. Although my first encounter with Martinu was the Vaclav Neumann cycle. I recall seeing those Supraphon LP's with those wierd elongated heads on the cover in the record racks of Haverfordwest library,back in the days when libraries bought good hardback books & the nearest you got to Classic FM type type compilations were 'These you have loved'. I remember looking at those Lp's with their wierd cover designs and thinking WHAT'S THAT? Indeed,WHAT'S THAT turned out to some of the strangest most viscerally exciting music I'd ever heard. I even remember someone who had never heard Martinu hearing me playing one of the records & saying what superb playing it was.
These days it seems that no critic has a good word for poor old Vaclav Neumann. Was he REALLY that bad?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2011, 08:39:18 AM
NB He introduced me to a wonderful composer,so thank you Maestro Neumann for that!
     Okay,back to Brian!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on March 18, 2011, 08:42:40 AM
Neumann is too unassuming and lacking marketing "wow" to catch the eye of some lazy critics :) More often than not, recordings of his that I have heard have been top-drawer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on March 18, 2011, 08:52:43 AM
Johan, I took that copy of the tenth you posted earlier and see in the metadata it is James Loughran and the LSSO (what is LSSO?)  For some reason I don't know, I found this rather interesting.  On the playing of it, somewhere in the playing of it there are even similarities to Alan Pettersson.
I am now off to order some of the Brian that has been discussed.
I wish my fellow Scot Dundonnel was still active on this forum, he also has a significant insight into the works of Brian.

And Neumann was a very precise conductor, he is not for the masses but for the discerning masses.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2011, 09:03:42 AM
John, the LSSO is the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra. They made the first recording of Brian symphonies in 1972 (10 and 21).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2011, 10:24:39 AM
After my pro Neumann rant (!),I notice that Hurwitz rates his Dvorak cycle very highly,if not the best available!
Hm! I'll have to get round to hearing that.
One conductor who for some reason or other bores the socks off me is Simon Rattle. I don't really know why but even his most highly praised recordings seem to make once only trips to my cd player. I did enjoy his recording of Maw's 'Odyssey' when it came out,though. Although I haven't listened to it since.
Another conductor who seemed to get allot of negative press years ago was Svetlanov. Thankfully,the tide seems to have turned in his favour.
Regarding the LSSO Unicorn recording,it would be really nice if someone could re-issue that on a midprice or budget cd. The original cd would,currently,cost me just over £30 on Amazon,from a seller.
Also,regarding the granitic sound of Brian's orchestra. I found the old Collins single of Harrison Birtwistle's 'Earthdances' in a box a couple of days ago. Playing it today reminded me of this. I wonder if Birtwistle has ever heard any Brian? The two composers aren't exactly soundalikes,but there are some strange similarities. The 'growly' bass & brass sonorities,and the feeling of some thing huge almost elemental & that word again,'granitic'!
You'll probably think I'm bonkers comparing these two!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2011, 10:30:03 AM
It's possibly their 'Northern grit' which connects the two...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 18, 2011, 10:40:57 AM
What do they need, a neti pot, then? ; )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2011, 12:07:33 PM
Of course I wouldn't care to compare a composer as lionized by the critics at Brian with a mere upstart like Birtwistle!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2011, 01:57:35 PM
Quite right, cilgwyn! ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on March 18, 2011, 04:44:39 PM
Don't worry cilgwyn, I had the balls to say he sounded a bit like Alan Petterssson at times (or vice versa) in that tenth.  Perhaps hallucinogenics have manifest in my coffee or something, I must re-listen to hear what I was on about...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 19, 2011, 01:41:22 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 18, 2011, 08:33:33 AMI have more absorption of the Gothic ahead of me, but  I enjoyed the later symphonies in the other Naxos disc I fetched in even better in some ways.

Which symphonies, Karl?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 19, 2011, 04:08:56 AM
17 & 32, Johan.

[asin]B00480781W[/asin]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 19, 2011, 06:12:48 AM
Can't stand some of the Naxos recordings of Brian,myself,but the one pictured above is a 'good one'. I prefer the Hull Youth SO in the 'Festal Dance',though. It's more fun! (I just hope my s/h copy is ok! It's still in the post,as yet)
Strange cover design. Looks like an egg yolk!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 20, 2011, 06:53:43 AM
By the way,thank you to the Forum Member who sent me those recommendations. I accidentally deleted your emai after reading it, (my email put in the Spam folder & I meant to move it to 'inbox'!).
I am currently still waitng for that Hull Youth SO cd set. Will it live up to 'rose tinted' memory? The last time I heard them 'The Benny Hill Show' was still filling up our tv screens with scantily clad women & a pint in my local was around 50p! And,even more importantly,for me personally,will the cd player 'freeze' or even get past track '0'?!
To be continued........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 20, 2011, 07:55:19 AM
My thumbs have been up for days already, cilgwyn.

One Brian remark - I love the conclusion of the Concerto for Orchestra. It's quintessential Brian, light and grand at the same time. It's IMO a stronger sequel to the coda of Symphony No. 20 (for the experts among us).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 21, 2011, 11:58:51 AM
I'll have another listen to the 'Concerto for Orchestra' later.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on March 23, 2011, 09:08:46 AM
The prices of some Brian books make my head hurt. I recently cheaply picked up these:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/40/dc/218de03ae7a06f04fb95d110.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0800858441/?tag=goodmusicguideco) (http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/6145/havergalbrianonmusicvol.jpg) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Music-British-Musicians/dp/0907689191/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1300899374&sr=1-4)

The first of which contains an interesting essay on Brian, but no in-depth look at one piece (unlike some of the other composers included), with references to other books which are currently patchily available. The second is an interesting (and valuble) look at Brian's personality and interests - his advocacy of Arnold Cooke (based on some early chamber works) makes the Lyrita coupling seem even more logical.

The next logical step seems to be the Symphonies of Havergal Brian by Malcolm MacDonald, but these are out of print and attainable in variable condition and inconsistent bindings - does anybody know if there are any plans to reprint them at some point?

Does anybody have any comments on the others (excluding super expensive ones):

Havergal Brian and His Music (Nettel)
Ordeal by Music: The Strange Experience of Havergal Brian (Nettel)
Havergal Brian: Reminiscences and Observations (Matthew-Walker)
Havergal Brian: The Making of a Composer (Eastaugh)
HB: Aspects of Harvergal Brian (Schaarwachter)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 23, 2011, 09:32:53 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on March 23, 2011, 09:08:46 AM
The prices of some Brian books make my head hurt. I recently cheaply picked up these:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/40/dc/218de03ae7a06f04fb95d110.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0800858441/?tag=goodmusicguideco) (http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/6145/havergalbrianonmusicvol.jpg) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Music-British-Musicians/dp/0907689191/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1300899374&sr=1-4)

The first of which contains an interesting essay on Brian, but no in-depth look at one piece (unlike some of the other composers included), with references to other books which are currently patchily available. The second is an interesting (and valuble) look at Brian's personality and interests - his advocacy of Arnold Cooke (based on some early chamber works) makes the Lyrita coupling seem even more logical.

The next logical step seems to be the Symphonies of Havergal Brian by Malcolm MacDonald, but these are out of print and attainable in variable condition and inconsistent bindings - does anybody know if there are any plans to reprint them at some point?

Does anybody have any comments on the others (excluding super expensive ones):

Havergal Brian and His Music (Nettel)
Ordeal by Music: The Strange Experience of Havergal Brian (Nettel)
Havergal Brian: Reminiscences and Observations (Matthew-Walker)
Havergal Brian: The Making of a Composer (Eastaugh)
HB: Aspects of Harvergal Brian (Schaarwachter)


'Opus Est''s essay on Brian discovers a cruciform in the tonal scheme of the Gothic.
'Havergal Brian on music vol. 1' is an indispensable book for anyone wanting to know how Brian responded to the music of his time. Vol. 2 was published last year.


The essential books on Brian to have are the three MacDonald books and Schaarwächter's Aspects of Brian (which contains a selection of the best articles and essays from the HBS Newsletter). I don't think the MM volumes will be reprinted anytime soon (I can ask him). Perhaps when there is a new Brian Renaissance... But they are real classics.


Nettel's Havergal Brian: The man and his music is an update of his earlier 'Ordeal by Music', which stops the story in 1946, thinking Brian's career was over... It has a flavour all its own, because Nettel was a Potteries man, too, and knew the (musical) world Brian came from.
Matthew-Walker's book is for hard-core Brianites who want to have every snippet of info. I bought it from the author at the 21st anniversary of the HBS in 1995.
Eastaugh's book is still the only biography available. It's a bit on the sensational side and doesn't teach you anything about the music. Eastaugh's view of Brian is slanted, and the man comes across as quite the egotistic artist, sometimes given to histrionics. I have read the book twice, and I forget every time what I have been reading...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 23, 2011, 09:35:38 AM
Most interesting, thank you, Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on March 23, 2011, 10:09:39 AM
Thank you for the guidance, Johan!

I'll pick up the Schaarwächter, probably the Nettel too.* I'll wait on the reply about the symphonies volumes if it's not too much trouble - I am not expecting anything positive, but it's worth a try: I really dislike those dirty ex-library volumes :(

One fascinating thing the Opus Est book mentions is that the MacDonald volumes were seemingly written to be read along with the score or to a recording of the music, and the author notes that the books will become increasingly valuble as Brian's music gains more exposure. I feel very fortunate to be around when most of his symphonies are easily available in recordings.

*Edit: just clicked buy on both.

Edit2: Listening to the Lyrita recording of the 6th - I keep remembering Brian's style from his later works, and tend to be shocked whenever I encounter moments like 10:50 (going on for several minutes) in his output. It's amongst the most beautiful music I can recall, and the context only heightens its impact. There are moments that remind me of Truscott's "elegy" for strings, which only makes me feel more strongly the loss for Truscott's inability to complete his compositions.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 23, 2011, 12:11:34 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on March 23, 2011, 10:09:39 AM
Thank you for the guidance, Johan!

I'll pick up the Schaarwächter, probably the Nettel too.* I'll wait on the reply about the symphonies volumes if it's not too much trouble - I am not expecting anything positive, but it's worth a try: I really dislike those dirty ex-library volumes :(

One fascinating thing the Opus Est book mentions is that the MacDonald volumes were seemingly written to be read along with the score or to a recording of the music, and the author notes that the books will become increasingly valuble as Brian's music gains more exposure. I feel very fortunate to be around when most of his symphonies are easily available in recordings.

*Edit: just clicked buy on both.

Edit2: Listening to the Lyrita recording of the 6th - I keep remembering Brian's style from his later works, and tend to be shocked whenever I encounter moments like 10:50 (going on for several minutes) in his output. It's amongst the most beautiful music I can recall, and the context only heightens its impact. There are moments that remind me of Truscott's "elegy" for strings, which only makes me feel more strongly the loss for Truscott's inability to complete his compositions.


Truscott's Elegy is a wonderful piece, I agree. And that tenderness is in Brian, too. Not only in that lovely and moving passage in the Tragica you are referring to, but even as late as Symphony No. 24, whose final Adagio is among the most beautiful things Brian ever wrote. I hope the Naxos recording will do it justice...


I read Opus Est more than 30 years ago, when I was 18. The Amsterdam Public Library's music department must have had a Brianite librarian, because everything was there - a copy of the Gothic, MacDonald's books, Nettel's, Eastaugh's, Foreman's (Havergal Brian and the perfomance of his orchestral music, with lots of tantalising pictures - I could only guess at what the music sounded like, as there were so few recordings!) Quite incredible, come to think of it! The beauty of being faithful to your enthusiasms is that one day you get into contact with a MacDonald and a Rapoport. I now 'know' them both on Facebook, and was able to express my gratitude for their writings on Brian. I'll send MacDonald a message. I seem to remember reading that the Society had bought up all the remaining stock of his study from the publisher and offered all three for a certain sum (not too expensive).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 23, 2011, 12:30:21 PM
The Macdonald symphonies volumes are just masterpieces of musical writing, full stop. I can think of few better and more involving 'reads' in music literature* - passionate, highly knowledgable (we are clearly in the hands of someone who knows the subject better than anyone else), fabulously thought-through and structured, beatifully written (MM finds the perfect metaphors time and again); both analytically insightful and revelatory/moving on a personal level, and able to bind all of this into a coherent whole which gives a fine impression of the man and his music. Everything rings very true.


*some of those that come closest are by MM too - he's really a great writer!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 23, 2011, 12:39:20 PM
Complete agreement here, Luke. Discovering that first volume on a library shelf, age 16, when I was looking for something about Bruckner, changed my life.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 23, 2011, 02:18:10 PM
And this fool sold his copies on Amazon a couple of years ago! That was after some of those Naxos recordings put me off Brian for a while. Also,most of the cassettes I had got destroyed by dodgy machines so there was no alternative.
The 'Second age of Brian' for me proved to be the  emergence of the Boult Gothic on cd. Suddenly I realised it wasn't Brian at all it was those horrid Marco Polo/ Naxos cd's!
Since then I have re-stocked my 'library' with the off air performances I lost & replaced the Lp's I sold with the cd equivalents.
  Some of the Naxos performances ARE okay,but in my humble opinion,at least to my ears,the performances of the 'Gothic', 'Das Siegeslied' & Symphony No 2 are insufferable!
  I thoroughly agree with the comments here about Malcolm MacDonald's books about the Symphonies. They are simply marvellous. I had them all! You can of course get along without them I suppose,but it is a little like going out to some unknown & difficult terrain without a very good ordnance survey map.
Pleeease re-publish them somebody!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 23, 2011, 02:19:56 PM
Malcolm Macdonald is a bit of a genius himself!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 23, 2011, 02:48:19 PM
Okay - how I rate the Naxos recordings...


Symphony No. 1 "Gothic"
- I am not as dismissive as cilgwyn. Every "Gothic" performance is a blessing, and this one is certainly more than acceptable, in my opinion. I prefer Boult for his choice of tempi and his firm structural grip, but Lenard certainly does not misrepresent the score. The Schmidt performance sits somewhere in the middle. It will be very interesting to see what Brabbins will do. And we still have to find out what the Brisbane "Gothic" was like.

Symphony No. 2
+ Festival Fanfare - Largely bad. Though I find the quality of the playing in the Second Symphony improves per movement, making the final movement, Lento maestoso e mesto, quite impressive. The Festival fanfare is terribly timid and sluggish. It can be a very strong piece, as short as it is.

Symphony No. 4 'Das Siegeslied' + Symphony No. 12 - This CD gets you acquainted with the notes, but both can be so much stronger. Until now the Del Mar 12 from 1966 is the best performance. As for 4, the Poole performance from 1974 is better.

Violin Concerto + Symphony No. 18 + The Jolly Miller - The rich Violin Concerto is persuasively played by Marat Bisengaliev. I saw and heard him play it live, and that was even better... No. 18 gets a stronger performance in a BBC radio performance.

Symphonies Nos. 11 & 15 + Doctor Merryheart + For Valour - A good disc overall. Opening slow movement of 11 a bit too quick, though (the reissued historic performance on Dutton is better), and No. 15 is stronger in a BBC radio recording. But the two tone poems are well done.

Symphonies Nos. 17 & 32 + In Memoriam + Festal Dance - A good disc, too. I prefer the BBC 17 though, it's tougher, more fiery, and the ending is like the wrath of a god.

Symphonies Nos. 20 & 25 + Fantastic Variations on an Old Rhyme - Another good disc. I miss the organ at the climax of the Fantastic Variations. The Hull Youth Orchestra does this better...

And here endeth the lesson.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on March 23, 2011, 03:08:05 PM
The 2nd is a work that could potentially draw in some interest from non-Brianites, providing it was well-performed and recorded. It exists in a broody post-Mahler/Elgar soundworld that is quite accessable, although still a very mature work full of the composer's stylistic fingerprints. Of all his symphonies I feel that a label like Chandos could do this piece great justice - perhaps coupled with a single-movement work by a more familiar composer to draw upon a wider fanbase. (Although I hope that it wouldn't include those multiple arbitrary index points that the Marco Polo discs do - the can be quite disconcerting - Mahler's 9th didn't need them, and perhaps neither should this work.)

Speaking of his underrated symphonies, what do you folks think of his 5th? It is rather charming although the rare inclusion of a soloist took me a while to get used to (I am not familiar with Brian's songs or opera). It seems to exist as a missing link between his earlier vocal symphonies and his later compact ones.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 23, 2011, 03:21:14 PM
You're right about No. 2, though I don't think the first movement is among Brian's best - the central idea is too weak to carry the structural weight. The opening itself is great and looming, but the mountain gives birth to a mouse. I think No. 3 is the work Chandos should do. The Hyperion recording suffers from a too dry acoustic. It was recorded at the Maida Vale studio in London in (iirc) 1988. I attended a radio performance of the work and noticed even then that the music fell flat, having no space to breathe in.

As for No. 5 - wonderful work! Very spare and atmospheric. Brian Rayner Cook (no final e, as I wrongly thought) is in top form in the performance he gave at the Brian Centenary Festival in 1976. Judge for yourselves...


http://www.mediafire.com/file/zmgnn31swnu/Brian%205%20%28Rayner%20Cooke%29.mp3 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/zmgnn31swnu/Brian%205%20%28Rayner%20Cooke%29.mp3)


I know Brian's songs from an LP (now CD at Toccata) Cook made with Roger Vignoles - there are some gems there. Of the operas I know 'The Tigers' very well, and the 'Faust' Prologue. I have also heard 'Agamemnon' and 'The Cenci' (live, on the South Bank). 'Turandot' I only know from the wonderful and colourful orchestral suites, which Toccata already has recorded (iirc), and will be issuing later this year.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on March 23, 2011, 03:27:10 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 23, 2011, 03:21:14 PM
'Turandot' I only know from the wonderful and colourful orchestral suites, which Toccata already has recorded (iirc), and will be issuing later this year.

Can't wait for that second volume. I have yet to play the new three (two on Dutton) because I feel that I need to familiarise myself with the older recordings a little more before I move onto them - I don't want to spoil myself only to find that the older recordings are then unlistenable...

It's funny thinking about that Hyperion 3rd. I'm sure that if Chandos recorded it at the same time we would have the opposite complaint - too boomy and blurred ;) The label seem to have long-since gotten that problem under control, though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 23, 2011, 03:37:36 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on March 23, 2011, 03:27:10 PM
Can't wait for that second volume. I have yet to play the new three (two on Dutton) because I feel that I need to familiarise myself with the older recordings a little more before I move onto them - I don't want to spoil myself only to find that the older recordings are then unlistenable...

It's funny thinking about that Hyperion 3rd. I'm sure that if Chandos recorded it at the same time we would have the opposite complaint - too boomy and blurred ;) The label seem to have long-since gotten that problem under control, though.

Only the 10th and the Fifth English Suite have been recorded before. The rest is all new (forgetting the radio performances of some of them). I personally don't think the new recordings have rendered the old ones completely obsolete. The Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra did a splendid job (I still prefer their Suite to the one on Toccata, though the playing there is technically better).


I don't mind a boomy Brian...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 24, 2011, 04:21:27 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on March 23, 2011, 03:08:05 PM
The 2nd is a work that could potentially draw in some interest from non-Brianites, providing it was well-performed and recorded. It exists in a broody post-Mahler/Elgar soundworld that is quite accessable, although still a very mature work full of the composer's stylistic fingerprints. Of all his symphonies I feel that a label like Chandos could do this piece great justice - perhaps coupled with a single-movement work by a more familiar composer to draw upon a wider fanbase. (Although I hope that it wouldn't include those multiple arbitrary index points that the Marco Polo discs do - the can be quite disconcerting - Mahler's 9th didn't need them, and perhaps neither should this work.)

Speaking of his underrated symphonies, what do you folks think of his 5th? It is rather charming although the rare inclusion of a soloist took me a while to get used to (I am not familiar with Brian's songs or opera). It seems to exist as a missing link between his earlier vocal symphonies and his later compact ones.

I agree, I've come to appreciate Symphony No 2 more and more.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 24, 2011, 04:34:21 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 24, 2011, 04:21:27 AM
I agree, I've come to appreciate Symphony No 2 more and more.


Glad to hear it... For the record - my criticism only applies to the first movement. The slow second movement, for instance, has one of the most thrilling exchanges among the brass in the whole of the Brian canon.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 24, 2011, 07:26:34 AM
Before I upset anyone here,I would like to point out that my reactions to the Naxos recordings are largely subjective & in fact only apply to the cd's I mentioned. But,as someone who used,as a teenager, to selfishly brain my family with regular traversals of Havergal Brian's output,including the 'Gothic' at full blast, I can only say that I was obsessed with Havergal brian for years. Yet after my initial enthusiasm for the Marco Polo 'Gothic',every single Naxos cd seemed only to confirm my opinion that some of Brian's most ardent critics might actually be right.
Then along came the Testament release of the 'Gothic' & suddenly I'm a Brian admirer all over again!
Having said that,I have to admit that the choirs on the Marco Polo recordings are absolutely marvellous!
The last three Naxos cd's are excellent,although I have to admit to preferring the old Ralph Holmes recording of the Violin Concerto,tut!tut!. I find the Naxos too rushed. Although,maybe that's the correct way to perform it?! I must say,I really do wish someone would release that performance on cd one day. I had a horrific accident with my cassette copy. I accidentally taped over the last few bars! I was gutted!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 24, 2011, 07:40:18 AM
I love the old Ralph Holmes performance, cilgwyn, and in some respects I prefer it too.


I was fortunate - I became a member of the HBS in 1983. I got into contact with British members, visited them, and they began sending me copies of all the tapes they had. Some BBC performances have still not been bettered - 2 Mackerras, 7 Newstone (! though the EMI recording with Mackerras is excellent overall), 11 Newstone, 12 Del Mar, 15 Pope, 17 Pope, 18 Fairfax... I could remain an enthusiast, because I knew how good these works could be.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 24, 2011, 11:42:11 PM
I just drove past a double-decker bus called 'Havergal Brian' on my way into work this morning!  I work in Brighton - not far from Shoreham where the great man lived for many years. I suspect that he would have been amused.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 24, 2011, 11:49:19 PM
Ah! A sighting in the wild of that fabled vehicle! Terrific. Somewhere in this thread I posted a photo. There is a website devoted to all those named Brighton buses...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 24, 2011, 11:50:31 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 24, 2011, 11:49:19 PM
Ah! A sighting in the wild of that fabled vehicle! Terrific. Somewhere in this thread I posted a photo. There is a website devoted to all those named Brighton buses...

I thought of you immediately.  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 24, 2011, 11:54:32 PM
Yep. I'm madness on wheels. With three side drums and a wind machine.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2011, 12:27:01 AM
Behold the Bus itself!


(http://history.buses.co.uk/history/fleethist/images/hbrian1.jpg)



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 25, 2011, 02:01:06 AM
....and on its limitless heaving seats....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 25, 2011, 02:03:20 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2011, 12:27:01 AM
Behold the Bus itself!


(http://history.buses.co.uk/history/fleethist/images/hbrian1.jpg)

That's the one !
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 25, 2011, 02:12:22 AM
Nice bus. Is it designed with Brian's music in mind? Noisy, unreliable, erratic, awkward gear changes, makes surprse turns at the most unexpected times, not many people appreciate it, rarely used by the bus company and has it's own on-line thread entitled "A great, unappreciated British bus". I'm in a mischievous mood today so please don't be offended. Listened to the LSSO 10th again last night followd by the new version. Had the LSSO been in tune they would win hands down. More tension and atmosphere. More sense of occasion.  I blame Eric Pinkett for not teaching us properly. On the advice of this thread I also gave the 8th yet another chance. Sorry, didn't like it. Johan, I've also ploughed through your files and listened again. Still don't get it. Maybe this isn't for me. I prefer the Robin Orr and Simpson's symphonies by a huge distance. Must go, I want to listen to The Midsummer Marriage.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2011, 02:18:37 AM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on March 25, 2011, 02:12:22 AM
Nice bus. Is it designed with Brian's music in mind? Noisy, unreliable, erratic, awkward gear changes, makes surprse turns at the most unexpected times, not many people appreciate it, rarely used by the bus company and has it's own on-line thread entitled "A great, unappreciated British bus". I'm in a mischievous mood today so please don't be offended. Listened to the LSSO 10th again last night followd by the new version. Had the LSSO been in tune they would win hands down. More tension and atmosphere. More sense of occasion.  I blame Eric Pinkett for not teaching us properly. On the advice of this thread I also gave the 8th yet another chance. Sorry, didn't like it. Johan, I've also ploughed through your files and listened again. Still don't get it. Maybe this isn't for me. I prefer the Robin Orr and Simpson's symphonies by a huge distance. Must go, I want to listen to The Midsummer Marriage.


I can appreciate your humour, John. A pity you and Brian don't seem to get along. I wonder what it is about the 10th that it's the only symphony you can connect with... As for the 10th - maybe a third recording will combine the best aspects of the first two: the fiery playing of the Loughran and the structural grasp and compelling tempi of the Brabbins. Good luck with Tippett!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 25, 2011, 02:27:08 AM
The 10th has two or three good ideas and it works as a structure. It's not really a symphony, it's more of a symphonic poem in my view. It never gets bogged down and it doesn't suffer from hollow gestures. The scoring is actually very good and even in the Storm section you can here what is going on. I really rate it. Everything else I've tried (and I have) seems really uninspired. 21 and 22 (both LSSO) are patchy. With Mozart there's not a note too many. Nielsen has a clarity and purpose about him. I love these two composers. I'm no fan (or Fand!!) of Bax and Brian strikes me as being in a similar league. For every 30 seconds of inspiration - and there are many such moments - you have to plough through 10 minutes of pretty poor stuff. Only my opinion of course. I admire you Brianites and please keep at it. You clearly love the bloke's stuff and are doing a great job in trying to keep him alive. I fear it's an uphill struggle. There isn't a major international conductor playing Brian. The demise of the Marco Polo cycle summed it all up for me but to be fair most of the playing on those CDs is third rate. I have them all and it's only the Violin Concerto disc that offers real quality. The Hyperion 3rd is also not too clever. Since the early 70s I've had a fascination for Brian but the reality is that for all that fascination I don't care much for the dots he's put on the page. Sorry chaps!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2011, 02:44:02 AM
I like Bax, too, especially symphonies 1, 2 and 3. And Nielsen. And Simpson. But there is something in Brian's music that I respond to even more strongly. It's the sound, it's the unexpectedness of the structural processes, it's the condensation of style which reminds me of Joyce, Hopkins and others. Ergo: I don't have any problems with Brian. He is my favourite composer, and I can listen to him every day.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 25, 2011, 02:52:40 AM
BLIMEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2011, 02:54:20 AM
'Calm down, dear!'
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 25, 2011, 03:20:30 AM
This board is clearly full of people who enjoy British Music. A fair few of you also mention the LSSO so I thought this may appeal. It's the first public performance of Tippett's Shires Suite, written for the LSSO and peformed by them under the baton of Tippett at the 1970 Cheltenham Festival. It's great fun. The folder also includes a terrific Circus Band by Charles Ives and a less than appealing and scrappy Rhapsody in Blue. Here's the link:

http://www.mediafire.com/?su6w8a4c2a01t
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2011, 03:24:43 AM
Thanks, John!


There is, btw, a Tippett thread here: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,207.msg2689.html#msg2689 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,207.msg2689.html#msg2689)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 25, 2011, 03:28:52 AM
But I wonder, John, if the fact that the only Brian symphony you like is also the one you have played in is not a coincidence. In other words, you know the piece well, you experienced it from the inside, (and at a formative age, too) and you 'get' it. I say that because although I can understand a listener enjoying the 10th but not some of the later symphonies, at least one of the symphonies you've expressed a negative response to - the 8th - is stylistically close to the 10th (the youngest of the three 'brother' symphonies 8, 9 and 10, in fact). Personally, I think it's an even better symphony (it's my favourite Brian symphony; heck, it's my favourite British symphony, and sometimes I am tempted to go much further...). Even more personally - I think this is only me! - when I hear the word 'symphonism' I always think first of Brian's 8th. It's a piece which doesn't pay lip service to symphonic form but which really understands what lies at the roots of that form and is thus able to reinvent it in a completely successful, compelling way. What you describe as working for you in the 10th (and I suppose by implication what you're missing in the others) - 'The 10th has two or three good ideas and it works as a structure' - holds doubly true for the 8th, IMO: a piece which rewrites what a symphony can be from the inside, an explosive confrontation between two musical types which grows ever more extreme until it bursts into the extraordinary final passacaglie: the sonata principle reimagined with complete conviction and purpose, expressed using material of a really high quality, not a note too many, every nuance memorable.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 25, 2011, 04:17:23 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 25, 2011, 02:01:06 AM
....and on its limitless heaving seats....

It's the journey, not the destination . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 25, 2011, 04:18:48 AM
A good theory Luke. I played the Robin Orr Symphony and Checkmate with the LSSO and love them both. Maybe I wouldn't feel the same had I not had the "inside" experience as a youth. Where your theory fails is that my affection for the 10th is matched by my total dislike of the 21st. Most of the LSSO shared this view, strangley enough. 10 appealed but 21 didn't. I hear nothing in the 8th to inspire. Indeed, I listened to it again 10 minutes ago and and got absolutely nothing out of it despite the advocacy of Groves. Stange, isn't it? The opening to 10 is one of the most gripping ideas in ALL music. It's just brilliant.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 25, 2011, 04:34:13 AM
I, too, am a great believer in how living with a piece as a performer in the ensemble is a powerful lever into the life of the music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 25, 2011, 07:31:39 AM
A bit bigger & that 'Havergal Brian' bus would make a good desktop!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 25, 2011, 07:39:50 AM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on March 25, 2011, 04:18:48 AM
A good theory Luke. I played the Robin Orr Symphony and Checkmate with the LSSO and love them both. Maybe I wouldn't feel the same had I not had the "inside" experience as a youth. Where your theory fails is that my affection for the 10th is matched by my total dislike of the 21st. Most of the LSSO shared this view, strangley enough. 10 appealed but 21 didn't.

Except that, as I said, I can understand a liking for a 10 and a dislike for 21 - I'd find that very natural, they are in fairly divergent styles and 21 is much more laconic and thorny. It's more the liking for 10 and the dislike of the stylistically similar 8 which prompted my theory.

Quote from: Johnwh51 on March 25, 2011, 04:18:48 AMI hear nothing in the 8th to inspire. Indeed, I listened to it again 10 minutes ago and and got absolutely nothing out of it despite the advocacy of Groves. Stange, isn't it? The opening to 10 is one of the most gripping ideas in ALL music. It's just brilliant.


It is, that's true. But surely that odd little low brass + drums march-motive juxtaposed to those enormous empty spaces + horn calls is an equally gripping idea? (I speak of number 8 of course). As MM says, Brian has a way with arresting opening ideas - and as he also says, that of 8 is one of the most arresting and original of all.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2011, 07:45:23 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 25, 2011, 07:31:39 AM
A bit bigger & that 'Havergal Brian' bus would make a good desktop!


Here are members of The Southdown Enthusiasts' Club spotting the HB bus...


(http://www.southdownenthusiastsclub.org.uk/images/photographers.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 25, 2011, 09:05:26 AM
It makes makes a change from trainspotting!
But would they get on a 'Harrison Birtwistle' bus?!!!
  Incidentally, my Hull Youth SO 2cd set finally arrived. As I half expected 'very good condition' was a broken hinge & a cd which 'froze & skipped' about 2 min 35 secs in (cd 2). The booklet & inserts were fine,however. Anyway,to cut a longer story short I put the faulty cd on my pc & made a cd-r which works perfectly in my cd player. So all in all I AM, strange as it may seem, very pleased with my purchase as sellers usually ask allot of money for this. Also,listening to the recordings brought back happy memories of the excitement of youthful discovery,when rarities like this were generally 'snatched' from R3 broadcasts or heard via C90 cassettes brought by the village postman. Furthermore,the commitment and zeal of these pioneers REALLY shines through. These recordings really AREN't just for the charity shop or archive interest only,these are performances that really ARE worth hearing even if the string section IS being audibly pushed way beyond Their limit. (Even I have to admit there are quite a few moments when you have to grit your teeth a little!*)
Such a pity their recording project konked out. I understand their 'recording' of Holbrooke was a bit of a disaster. Perhaps someone here could fill me in a little on some of the background here & what actually happened. Was 'The Song of Gwyn ap Nudd' (I think that's what it was) really that bad?
Also,I don't want to turn this into A Bantock thread,but very briefly has anybody ever heard this. It was released on Lp.

PS: Now to get compensation from that seller!!!

PS2: I hadn't heard those lovely Herrick settings before. (For some wierd reason I never got the entire set) A new recording is surely way overdue,as does the 'English Suite No 1' which has some gorgeous writing in it. (Please,pleeease let someone find his 'English Suite No 2!)

* like finger nails on a school blackboard!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 25, 2011, 09:09:40 AM
PS3! Even I might like buses a little better if they named ours after Havergal Brian. But I don't think even local boy William Mathias  has ever got a bus named after him & I quite like his music,too!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 25, 2011, 09:33:04 AM
A Boston bus would have to be named William Billings, I think . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 25, 2011, 12:43:05 PM
Or take a ride on the Ethel Smyth!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2011, 01:08:54 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 25, 2011, 12:43:05 PM
Or take a ride on the Ethel Smyth!


Reminds me of a thing that amused RVW in a musical lexicon - 'Harriet Cohen, see under: Arnold Bax'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 25, 2011, 01:29:51 PM
Oh, dear, dear, dear... 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 25, 2011, 01:37:16 PM
I must say I wAS tempted to word that a little more provocatively!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 25, 2011, 01:39:19 PM
Confound that 'w'!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 27, 2011, 03:08:04 AM
Cilgwyn, you mention your compatriot Bill Mathias. I quite like his stuff. He has his own sound world and although there's nothing earth shattering to be found it is all very well crafted and user friendly. I assume you know the Sinfonietta from 1966. Another one of those pieces that landed on the LSSO music stands in hand written parts early in 1967. The first public performance was in Leicester in May 1967 under the direction of the composer. Here's a link to the LSSO Pye recording also conducted by the composer along with the Prince Charles Suite, Ridout's Concertante Music and Arnold's Divertimento. This was a single take effort one afternoon in De Montfort Hall in July 1967.

http://www.mediafire.com/?z9a9yk13d8d95
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 27, 2011, 09:25:48 AM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on March 25, 2011, 02:12:22 AM
Nice bus. Is it designed with Brian's music in mind? Noisy, unreliable, erratic, awkward gear changes, makes surprse turns at the most unexpected times, not many people appreciate it, rarely used by the bus company and has it's own on-line thread entitled "A great, unappreciated British bus". I'm in a mischievous mood today so please don't be offended. Listened to the LSSO 10th again last night followd by the new version. Had the LSSO been in tune they would win hands down. More tension and atmosphere. More sense of occasion.  I blame Eric Pinkett for not teaching us properly. On the advice of this thread I also gave the 8th yet another chance. Sorry, didn't like it. Johan, I've also ploughed through your files and listened again. Still don't get it. Maybe this isn't for me. I prefer the Robin Orr and Simpson's symphonies by a huge distance. Must go, I want to listen to The Midsummer Marriage.

Ah, but the end of No 8 is my favourite Brian ending - mysterious, searching,poignant and oddly moving
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 27, 2011, 09:44:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 27, 2011, 09:25:48 AM
Ah, but the end of No 8 is my favourite Brian ending - mysterious, searching,poignant and oddly moving


I agree. I just listened to that ending again. Everything is still and held in brooding suspension, but you sense the coming of night. I was suddenly strongly reminded of the classic final lines of Wallace Stevens's 'Sunday Morning', itself a searching poem about belief and unbelief:


We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.
Deer walk upon our mountains, and the quail
Whistle about us their spontaneous cries;
Sweet berries ripen in the wilderness;
And, in the isolation of the sky,
At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 27, 2011, 10:49:12 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 27, 2011, 09:44:29 AM

I agree. I just listened to that ending again. Everything is still and held in brooding suspension, but you sense the coming of night. I was suddenly strongly reminded of the classic final lines of Wallace Stevens's 'Sunday Morning', itself a searching poem about belief and unbelief:


We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.
Deer walk upon our mountains, and the quail
Whistle about us their spontaneous cries;
Sweet berries ripen in the wilderness;
And, in the isolation of the sky,
At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings.

Great poem Johan - never heard of it before and yes, it does seem appropriate for the ending of Brian's 8th Symphony. I'm writing to Brighton Municipal Bus Company to insist that they play Brian's 8th Symphony as a continuous loop on their 'Havergal Brian' bus - a treat for the early morning rush hour commuters and school children  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 27, 2011, 10:54:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 27, 2011, 10:49:12 AMI'm writing to Brighton Municipal Bus Company to insist that they play Brian's 8th Symphony as a continuous loop on their 'Havergal Brian' bus - a treat for the early morning rush hour commuters and school children  ;D


Makes sense.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 27, 2011, 12:57:58 PM
Ok,just back from 'hyperlink boot camp'!
Regarding Mathias. I like his music. Also the way allot of his music reflects his love of jazz. Definately underrated,although not an original like HB,to whom this thread is indeed dedicated. I didn't know he had any association of any kind with the LSSO,so it's rather funny I brought his name up. And talkng about funny,but not funny ha! ha! Funnily enough,I got hold of another Welshman,Daniel Jones's Symphony No 2. While copying it to a cd-r I found to my dismay that Grace Williams First Symphony was too long to fit,so I added Hoddinott's Seventh for organ & orchestra. Not a composer I usually warm too,but this,to use a decidely unintellectual term,is a bit of a cracker! And a little on the 'Gothicky' side,itself.
   Back to the subject of this thread! I have been enjoying the Hull Youth in their new cd incarnation & I think they sound even better than they did before. Although,at the same time.one part of me keeps thinking that this is the sort of cd reissue that confirms Lp enthusiasts feelings that good old vinyl sounds more lifelike.  I'm still a happy bunny though!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 27, 2011, 01:00:09 PM
I'm no engineer,but the sound quality reminds me a little of some of those very early Chandos cd's.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 27, 2011, 01:04:41 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 27, 2011, 12:57:58 PMOk,just back from 'hyperlink boot camp'!


Poor you!


Quote from: cilgwyn on March 27, 2011, 01:00:09 PM
I'm no engineer,but the sound quality reminds me a little of some of those very early Chandos cd's.


Agreed. The music has room to breathe in.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on March 27, 2011, 01:12:39 PM
Please feel free to begin a thread on Mathias - I strongly admire his first two symphonies and would love to see some more discussion on him (I try to recommend the Nimbus disc every now and again, but no takers - surprising, as the style seems bang on what some users of the forum enjoy).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 27, 2011, 01:20:18 PM
I liked them,personally,but some critics used to grumble about them!  But what do they know. I recently bought the Bryden Thomson of Bax's Second Symphony, (I have had the box set for years). According some critics it's horribly reverberant. I bunged it on. Right from the opening,it sounds so exciting,so spectacular. What's their problem?
  Incidentally,in the circumstances,stating that 'I'm no engineer' has got to be a gross understatement.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 27, 2011, 01:21:53 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 27, 2011, 01:20:18 PM
I liked them,personally,but some critics used to grumble about them!  But what do they know. I recently bought the Bryden Thomson of Bax's Second Symphony, (I have had the box set for years). According some critics it's horribly reverberant. I bunged it on. Right from the opening,it sounds so exciting,so spectacular. What's their problem?
  Incidentally,in the circumstances,stating that 'I'm no engineer' has got to be a gross understatement.


I love that, too! Wonderful. Give me symphonies 1, 2 and 3 with Thomson any day.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 27, 2011, 01:22:52 PM
Thomson's the best!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 27, 2011, 01:26:12 PM
I'm suprised a Mathias thread had few visitors. He often got it in the neck for being a little too populistic!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 27, 2011, 01:43:02 PM
Sincere apologies for posting three in a row,but on the topic of sound engineering,I'm afraid I can't resist this one. I have been playing some early orchestral recordings. I just compared Tchaikovsky's 3rd symphony conducted by Albert Coates in 1932 (Biddulph) & the Naxos recording of the same work. I could swear that the 1926 recording is clearer,sharper and more detailed!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 27, 2011, 01:46:16 PM
Apologies,I meant 1932.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 27, 2011, 01:47:38 PM
I don't mind your hwyl, cilgwyn...  ;)


I am savouring early Brian at the moment. The man was an original from the start, with a feel for orchestral sonority that is uniquely his own, as is his sense of structure. All he needed was a further maturing, but everything was there ab ovo.


P.S. You can use the Modify button to edit, cilgwyn...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 27, 2011, 03:15:15 PM
Thanks. It looks like I might be using that allot!
I note the 'pianist' in 'Festal Dance'. Now that I definately missed in the Naxos. It doesn't sound zany enough without it, Although,it may have been optional?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 27, 2011, 03:23:56 PM
A piano in 'Festal Dance'?! I had forgotten that. The organ in the 'Fantastic Variations' is optional, too, but I wouldn't want to miss it for the world!

By the way - I noticed a premonition of 'Festal Dance' in the final mvmt of the 1st English Suite...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 28, 2011, 01:08:37 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 27, 2011, 12:57:58 PM
Ok,just back from 'hyperlink boot camp'!
Regarding Mathias. I like his music. Also the way allot of his music reflects his love of jazz. Definately underrated,although not an original like HB,to whom this thread is indeed dedicated. I didn't know he had any association of any kind with the LSSO,so it's rather funny I brought his name up. And talkng about funny,but not funny ha! ha! Funnily enough,I got hold of another Welshman,Daniel Jones's Symphony No 2. While copying it to a cd-r I found to my dismay that Grace Williams First Symphony was too long to fit,so I added Hoddinott's Seventh for organ & orchestra. Not a composer I usually warm too,but this,to use a decidely unintellectual term,is a bit of a cracker! And a little on the 'Gothicky' side,itself.
   Back to the subject of this thread! I have been enjoying the Hull Youth in their new cd incarnation & I think they sound even better than they did before. Although,at the same time.one part of me keeps thinking that this is the sort of cd reissue that confirms Lp enthusiasts feelings that good old vinyl sounds more lifelike.  I'm still a happy bunny though!
OT
Coincidentally listened to Mathias Symphony No 1 last night (on a fine Lyrita CD with Joubert's equally good Symphony No 1). The Mathias has a great tune at the end - which I find very inspiriting.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 28, 2011, 02:25:38 AM
More English stuff to consider. Although Tippett is my own favourite of the late 20th Century Brits I'm also a Bliss fan and was fortunate enough to have played under him with the LSSO. A true gentleman. Here's a link to the LSSO playing the brilliant Introduction and Allegro conducted by Sir Arthur. Scrappy in places and a horrid Decca recording (Studo 3 West Hampstead) but very uplifting music. I've also added on YouTube, in 5 parts, a documentary about the 1975 Leicester Haymarket Theatre production of Lady of Shallot from 1975 which includes a short section of Sir Arthur playing the piano in his London home. By the way, I took the HB Unknown Warrior documentary off my old YouTube channel but then reinstated it on a channel called john1951w. The cyberpolice tracked me down but hopefully they will now leave me in peace and let good old Havergal alone. I've updated the HB Wiki site to reflect this change and also added links to the 1998 Symphony 10 rehearsals. Scroll to the bottom. Terrible audio quality from 1998 but my camcorder was just about to die. I also mention Johan in the article. The 1st trumpet in 1998 is James (Jimmy) Watson. A really good friend who was principal trumpet with the RPO/Covent Garden/London Sinfonietta/Phil Jone BE. Prof Watson, head of brass at the Royal Academy, died suddenly last month aged 59. A true world star. I now cherish these fleeting moments of his playing and - as usual - larking about!! A great player but an entertaining funny bloke. Sitting next to him is Richard ("Bex") Bissill, 1st horn of the LPO. Here are the Bliss links:

http://www.mediafire.com/?kgiumma4lwm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2-UQK_ZqZ0
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 28, 2011, 05:26:08 AM
I have all the Mathias Nimbus & Lyrita cds. I like all or at least most of his music. I think his concerto's & some of his choral music are of more than local (Welsh) interest. Daniel Jones is more thorny & perhaps less consistent,but he really does deserve & need a re-assessment. A complete cycle of his symphonies is long overdue.
  Regarding early Brian. I love that thrilling way he brings in that organ too! Listening to all those Hull Youth SO recordings, (incidentally,thank you to that dodgy seller!) really does bring home,at least for me,what's wrong with those professional Naxos performances. For example,Dr Merryheart,which usually eludes me,is an ear tickling bon bon of Beechamesque endearment in this performance. Yes,the strings are a bit scrapy & slightly off key,but the whole concoction just glitters. Which makes you wonder just what Beecham & the RPO could have done with it if they had been able to record it. As to 'In Memoriam'. Sorry Naxos,no competition! This youthful rendition is the real deal.The Naxos performance sounds flat by comparison. Where's the feeling,the passion? Playing Elgar's own recording of his First symphony earlier today only seemed to confirm my feelings about this.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 28, 2011, 05:32:14 AM
Nice post, cilgwyn! Yes, give me passion and enthusiasm and a few off strings don't matter that much. You get carried along. I, too, am much more positive about the HYO than I was 25 years ago.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 28, 2011, 05:33:30 AM
Incidentally is it only a coincidence that Brian &  Holbrooke composed variations on a 'three blind mice' theme around the same period?
Also,whatever happened to Tippett? You barely seem to even hear his name these days. Is Tippett a neglected composer now?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 28, 2011, 05:34:59 AM
They're like 'The Two Ronnies'. They seem better now than they did then.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 28, 2011, 05:37:46 AM
'The Two Ronnies' - haha! 'It's good night from me, Havergal'...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 28, 2011, 06:18:46 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 28, 2011, 05:33:30 AM
Also,whatever happened to Tippett? You barely seem to even hear his name these days. Is Tippett a neglected composer now?!

Not in my house he isn't, don't worry!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 28, 2011, 06:21:25 AM
I hardly feel that I've been neglecting him of late, myself . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: not edward on March 28, 2011, 06:21:31 AM
This is resurrecting a comment from a couple of pages back, because every time I tried to do this post the browser crashed or I got distracted by work or something.

Quote from: Luke on March 25, 2011, 03:28:52 AM
It's a piece which doesn't pay lip service to symphonic form but which really understands what lies at the roots of that form and is thus able to reinvent it in a completely successful, compelling way.
I think this is a perfect description of the success of the 8th. (It also would be a good description of some other eccentric yet symphonic works--Tippett's 4th, I'd say, or Langgaard's 4th and 6th.)

Quote from: Luke on March 25, 2011, 03:28:52 AMa piece which rewrites what a symphony can be from the inside, an explosive confrontation between two musical types which grows ever more extreme until it bursts into the extraordinary final passacaglie: the sonata principle reimagined with complete conviction and purpose, expressed using material of a really high quality, not a note too many, every nuance memorable.
Again, a perfect description, and this one I think could maybe be generalized somewhat: a rather fertile area in the 'post-sonata-form' aesthetic seems to me to be where a dialectical process fails, or isn't given time to reach synthesis, and some kind of new material undercuts it and provides a fitting conclusion. I'm thinking here, for example, of Schnittke (tonal/atonal mediated by some kind of musical found object, for example B-A-C-H in Quasi una sonata); Tippett (I'm thinking of the 3rd symphony and the way that the first three movements present a fast/slow dichotomy which can't be resolved because of the harmonic stasis latent in both types of material, but where a second dialectical process pitting the Schrekenfanfare against Tippett's 'blues' breaks this stasis); Ligeti (clocks and clouds resolved by a new type of material in the 2nd quartet or by the machinery going wrong in parts of the Chamber Concerto), not to mention the chorale with trumpet in Honegger's 2nd and the arrival of Es ist genug in the Berg violin concerto--of course Mahler's the unseen presence here and in Schnittke.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 28, 2011, 10:22:33 AM
And Havergal Brian ISN'T a neglected composer here!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 28, 2011, 11:23:36 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 28, 2011, 10:22:33 AM
And Havergal Brian ISN'T a neglected composer here!


No, and this has even come to the attention of John Grimshaw, Chairman of the Havergal Brian Society. He finds it, he wrote to me, "amazing how long the Brian thread is when compared to many other composers!" But as Luke wrote earlier - there is still so much to discover and discuss. If this planet lasts another century, things might look very different for Brian in 2111...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on March 28, 2011, 03:29:39 PM
I actually have a Brian disc in my shopping cart.

[asin]B0014FLGRQ[/asin]
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on March 28, 2011, 04:56:15 PM
That disc is a bulletproof choice - even if you don't find immediate access to Brian's style, only a puppy-drowner could dislike Cooke's 3rd :P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 28, 2011, 10:03:13 PM
I am awe-struck, Scarpia. The Brianic world awaits your verdict with bated breath...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 05:42:11 AM
If you click on the album (above) the Amazon reviewer describes Brian's Symphony No 16 as mostly 'atonal rambling'!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 05:50:03 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 05:42:11 AM
If you click on the album (above) the Amazon reviewer describes Brian's Symphony No 16 as mostly 'atonal rambling'!


The perpetrator is a P. Weber, from LA. Brian Vigilantes will know what to do - play No. 16 to the man as often as is needed to get him see the error of his way.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 06:38:24 AM
I suppose some of Brian's later music does push the boundaries a little,but atonal? Maybe I'll have another go at my Roger Sessions cd. Now he IS atonal! (The only atonal cd in my collection. I'm open minded,but it just doesn't do anything for me).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 29, 2011, 07:25:13 AM
"Atonal" is one of those words which often gets slung about by people who don't actually understand what it means ; )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 07:28:50 AM
Ignorance is bliss.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 07:29:35 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 07:28:50 AM
Ignorance is Bliss.
Knowledge is Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on March 29, 2011, 07:32:56 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 05:42:11 AM
If you click on the album (above) the Amazon reviewer describes Brian's Symphony No 16 as mostly 'atonal rambling'!
What, no honking?


Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 07:29:35 AM
Knowledge is Brian.
0:)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 29, 2011, 07:45:36 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 06:38:24 AM
I suppose some of Brian's later music does push the boundaries a little,but atonal?

No, he isn't, not even at his most extreme (I'm not sure that even the final crazy brass+timpani flurried in the Gothic aren't essentially tonal, despite everything). It's the elipticality and compression of Brian's thought which can confuse the ear, harmonically - but in fact, as a harmonist, looked at purely 'vertically,' he's not extreme at all*. It's not the chords themselves that produce 'the Brian sound' but the speed and fluidity with which they move.

* like Janacek, in this - the chords are mostly triads in both, in fact.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 07:53:49 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 29, 2011, 07:25:13 AM
"Atonal" is one of those words which often gets slung about by people who don't actually understand what it means ; )

But they're the ones who really experience music the most deeply.   0:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 29, 2011, 07:54:48 AM
Good thing I hadn't just taken a sip of my coffee!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 07:59:56 AM
And can we please have a cycle of Roger Sessions symphonies. Seriously,Sessions IS an interesting composer,but sporadic helpings of just two or three symphonies,however well performed & recording,REALLY don't help. With a composer like Sessions you REALLY need to be able to follow the way his musical though processes evolve.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 08:00:15 AM
Quote from: Luke on March 29, 2011, 07:45:36 AM
No, he isn't, not even at his most extreme (I'm not sure that even the final crazy brass+timpani flurried in the Gothic aren't essentially tonal, despite everything). It's the elipticality and compression of Brian's thought which can confuse the ear, harmonically - but in fact, as a harmonist, looked at purely 'vertically,' he's not extreme at all*. It's not the chords themselves that produce 'the Brian sound' but the speed and fluidity with which they move.

* like Janacek, in this - the chords are mostly triads in both, in fact.


Correct. The biggest stumbling block is understanding Brian's way of thinking and structuring. And I must say - even I, who have no difficulties at all with his idiom, can't really put clearly into words how every section fits into the whole, and how and why Brian jumps from one thing to another. In his best works it all feels natural. Take the Concerto for Orchestra, just released by Dutton - how Brian manages to start out as grimly as he does and still end the work 'logically' in the most festive manner, I can't understand rationally, but I can feel it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 29, 2011, 08:23:25 AM
You know I find it very curious that a company like CPO hasn't undertaken a Brian symphony cycle. It seems like this would be right up the label's alley? I mean they seem to make a habit of promoting more neglected composer's works. I mean they recorded the symphonies of Milhaud, Pettersson, Atterburg, Rangstrom, Frankel, etc., why can't they record Brian? The SWR Radio Symphony Orchestra would be the ideal orchestra for Brian I think. They have a great brass section. :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 08:26:36 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 29, 2011, 08:23:25 AM
You know I find it very curious that a company like CPO hasn't undertaken a Brian symphony cycle. It seems like this would be right up the label's alley? I mean they seem to make a habit of promoting more neglected composer's works. I mean they recorded the symphonies of Milhaud, Pettersson, Atterburg, Rangstrom, Frankel, etc., why can't they record Brian? The SWR Radio Symphony Orchestra would be the ideal orchestra for Brian I think. They have a great brass section. :D

Well, I think there would no problem mounting a Brian cycle if enthusiasm for Brian on this board were matched in the world at large.  Naxos started a Brian cycle but was unable to sustain it.  If you consider the scope of Naxos's recording program, that says something.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 29, 2011, 08:31:47 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 08:26:36 AM
Well, I think there would no problem mounting a Brian cycle if enthusiasm for Brian on this board were matched in the world at large.  Naxos started a Brian cycle but was unable to sustain it.  If you consider the scope of Naxos's recording program, that says something.

Yes, I realize and understand Brian's neglect, but the same could be said for Pettersson, Atterberg, etc. and they're cycles were recorded. I don't know many people who are enthusiastic about Pettersson's music, do you? My point is CPO seems to be a label for neglected composer's music whether the works were popular during their lifetimes or not. I think they really need to do a cycle.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 08:41:37 AM
The point is, I think: CPO is a label that favours Continental European music. Frankel was (iirc) German, too. In Germany British music doesn't have any prestige at all. Adorno castigated Sibelius, but since he died in 1969, Northern Europeans like S. were accepted more and more. There is a lot of attractive Scandinavian music. Also Dutch composers like Roentgen and Badings have been recorded by CPO. But British music is a vast territory the Germans have no serious interest in. I can't blame them, with some of the biggest hitters in history.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 29, 2011, 08:57:35 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 08:41:37 AM
The point is, I think: CPO is a label that favours Continental European music. Frankel was (iirc) German, too. In Germany British music doesn't have any prestige at all. Adorno castigated Sibelius, but since he died in 1969, Northern Europeans like S. were accepted more and more. There is a lot of attractive Scandinavian music. Also Dutch composers like Roentgen and Badings have been recorded by CPO. But British music is a vast territory the Germans have no serious interest in. I can't blame them, with some of the biggest hitters in history.

If Germans have no serious interest in classical music outside of their own country, what does this say about them? Are they so narrow-minded as a people that they are unwilling to accept other country's music? I don't think this is the case, but more of a case that they think their tradition is the one that matters the most. I happily disagree with this sentiment. Where I'm getting at is CPO, whether it was a Swiss label, a German label, a French label, whatever, I thought their focus was on filling in gaps in neglected composer's music? I mean do they not cater to the specialized market of classical listeners? Brian's music is definitely a specialized area of 20th Century music.

Anyway, British music is neglected because people choose to neglect it for some silly pre-conceived notions that have nothing to do with the music. There has been some amazing music composed in the British Isles. Like I said, I believe a Brian cycle is in order.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 09:11:06 AM
I am all for a Brian cycle, but I don't think it will be forthcoming from CPO. A composer like Pettersson, for instance, is seen as a very interesting continuation of the German- Austrian tradition. Of course, Havergal Brian is, too, with even a setting of Goethe's Faust to his credit (in German!) But for one reason or another, Brian's love of German culture has not been reciprocated. There is one German music professor, who has published a big tome on the British symphony and he is a member of the Havergal Brian Society. But so far his influence has been negligible.

Another example: Delius. He was German himself, was played before World War I triumphantly all over Germany. But during and after the war that ended. For decades. Only now interest is growing again, a bit. Delius has had a volume to himself, for example, in the excellent series Musik-Konzepte, which I have read and from which I could deduce that British music is terra incognita in Germany.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 09:19:19 AM
In the end, they need to sell records to stay in business, and they I suspect any label considering a Brian cycle would be very wary after the economic catastrophe of the aborted Naxos cycle, which resulted in very expensive sessions producing recordings that didn't come close to recouping production costs and in some cases could not even be released. 

A British label like Chandos or Hyperion would seem to me to be more likely to undertake something like this, and Hyperion even recorded one of the symphonies.  If that release had been commercially successful, I'm suspect they would have done more. 

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 29, 2011, 09:53:52 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 09:11:06 AMAnother example: Delius. He was German himself, was played before World War I triumphantly all over Germany. But during and after the war that ended. For decades. Only now interest is growing again, a bit. Delius has had a volume to himself, for example, in the excellent series Musik-Konzepte, which I have read and from which I could deduce that British music is terra incognita in Germany.

Don't get me started on Delius! ;) His neglect is completely inexcusable in my opinion. Thankfully, he had many champions: Beecham (who got the ball rolling), Barbirolli, Mackerras, Handley, Hickox, and now Andrew Davis (who has recorded some of his music before for Teldec, which is now on the Warner Apex budget line) and to a lesser degree: Groves, Davies, and Lloyd-Jones. We'll see what happens with this new Davis recording on Chandos.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 09:57:00 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 29, 2011, 09:53:52 AM
Don't get me started on Delius! ;) His neglect is completely inexcusable in my opinion. Thankfully, he had many champions: Beecham (who got the ball rolling), Barbirolli, Mackerras, Handley, Hickox, and now Andrew Davis (who has recorded some of his music before for Teldec, which is now on the Warner Apex budget line) and to a lesser degree: Groves, Davies, and Lloyd-Jones. We'll see what happens with this new Davis recording on Chandos.

His major works are all available in excellent recording.  What basis is there for saying he is neglected, and who is it, precisely, whose conduct can't be excused?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 29, 2011, 09:58:50 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 09:57:00 AM
His major works are all available in excellent recording, what basis is there for saying he is neglected?

He's neglected in the concert halls. I already stated that he had many fine champions, which, in turn, means he has had plenty of fine performances on record.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 09:59:41 AM
Cpo have done a bit of Josef Holbrooke though. But maybe he fits in more with their repertory. Holbrooke definately has his own sound world,but with his tone poems and quasi wagnerian opera cycle he's almost an off shoot of their own tradition. Havergal Brian was very interested in German culture and undoubtedly got allot of inspiration from it,but even in a work like 'Das Siegeslied' or 'Faust' the only thing that's German about the music is the fact that it's in German! Holbrooke,eccentric,quirky & original as he is in his own way is essentially a late romantic. Brian on the other hand is much harder to pin down. Janus like,he looks backwards and forwards. Allot of people picking up that Marco Polo cd set of the 'Gothic' want something similair. Instead they get ' Das Siegeslied' and symphonies 17 or 20,which are about as different as the sun and moon! Wonderful for us Brian buffs,but some people aren't so willing to persevere. On the other hand,if you like Holbrooke's 'The Raven' there's a very good chance you'll enjoy his 'Amontillado'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 11:04:32 AM
Apropos of nothing, I just ordered my first recording of a Brian work (the Lyrica release which includes the Cooke Symphony No 3).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 11:08:15 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 11:04:32 AM
Apropos of nothing, I just ordered my first recording of a Brian work (the Lyrica release which includes the Cooke Symphony No 3).


I applaud the deed to the echo (to quote Shakespeare, more or less)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 11:58:00 AM
The Cooke symphony has always put me off the Lyrita cd. I'm selfish, just want Brian! I had the original Lp all those long years ago & would have been quite happy with the playing time. On the other hand,you're cd of the Cooke wil probably sound a heck of allot better than my aged off air cassette copy. Indeed,I have even heard tales of people who prefer the Cooke!
  Fortunately, I can re-arrange the 'menu' on a cd-r & live happily ever after.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 11:59:10 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 11:58:00 AM
The Cooke symphony has always put me off the Lyrita cd. I'm selfish, just want Brian! I had the original Lp all those long years ago & would have been quite happy with the playing time. On the other hand,you're cd of the Cooke wil probably sound a heck of allot better than my aged off air cassette copy. Indeed,I have even heard tales of people who prefer the Cooke!
  Fortunately, I can re-arrange the 'menu' on a cd-r & live happily ever after.

I convinced myself to buy it by classifying the Brian Symphonies as fillers on a Cooke disc.  Sorry.   :-\
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 12:01:47 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 11:59:10 AM
I convinced myself to buy it by classifying the Brian Symphonies as fillers on a Cooke disc.  Sorry.   :-\


Ever the joker.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 12:12:22 PM
Sounds like you're glass is always half full 'Scarpia'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 12:40:44 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 12:01:47 PM
Ever the joker.

Well, I really wanted the perpetually out-of-print Groves recordings on EMI.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 12:59:48 PM
I was lucky there. I managed get the 'twofer' version,(with No 7),from my dodgy dealer. Now if I could get hold of a copy of the old LSSO Unicorn for at a similarly reasonable price...........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 29, 2011, 01:05:01 PM
The State of My Own Private Brian Inquiry is: I like what I hear. I need to dig some more into the Gothic, which has registered a stronger impression than the other disc I've heard.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: Apollon on March 29, 2011, 01:05:01 PM
The State of My Own Private Brian Inquiry is: I like what I hear. I need to dig some more into the Gothic, which has registered a stronger impression than the other disc I've heard.

One thing I know, I never want to hear the "Gothic."  (I can't fathom chorus and orchestra pieces, generally.)   Which is the "other" disc?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 29, 2011, 01:16:55 PM
Cilgwyn, I think our friend from Holland may have a link to the Unicorn. If not then I am happy to share.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 01:17:36 PM
Quote from: Apollon on March 29, 2011, 01:05:01 PM
The State of My Own Private Brian Inquiry is: I like what I hear. I need to dig some more into the Gothic, which has registered a stronger impression than the other disc I've heard.


You mean with Nos. 17 and 32? Well, the 'Gothic' is the stronger piece. But I like No. 17 in the BBC performance very much, too...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 01:19:38 PM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on March 29, 2011, 01:16:55 PM
Cilgwyn, I think our friend from Holland may have a link to the Unicorn. If not then I am happy to share.


Well, I have 10 & 21 on standby, so to speak. But if cilgwyn really wants the CD...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 02:12:55 PM
No.thank you for the offer,but I think I'll resist for the time being. I think you need it more than me. Anyway,I have the cd-r's & to be honest I have just spent a bit of a packet on some historical recordings. Some very strange people actually prefer listening to a couple of blokes playing into a horn or a 1920's microphone rather than something in state of the art digital sound. (I've got Dan Godfrey's 1920's recordings of VW's 'London Symphony' on at the moment.) But not all the time I hasten to add!
Brian's 'Gothic' could have been recorded in 1928!

NB: Dan Godfrey strikes me as a much better conductor than the jobber he's made out to be by some,judging by these recordings. Very impassioned playing & the swish of the shellac only adds to the evocative atmosphere.
Symposium have done a good job. Recommended!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 02:17:58 PM
Oskar Fried recorded Mahler's 3rd & Bruckner's Seventh in front of a horn. I reckon a 1928 shellac recording of the 'Gothic' would have been a doddle for him!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 02:18:58 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 02:12:55 PM
the swish of the shellac only adds to the evocative atmosphere.

Why not record the shellac swishing at the end of one of your 78s and superimpose it on those newfangled digital recordings.  Then again, why not have shellac swishers in the concert hall!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 02:19:30 PM
Ahem,Second!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 02:24:06 PM
I remember the first time I heard Elgar's recordings of his own music. I actually had this thought in my head. How do I KNOW it's really Elgar? It  could be some bloke in a studio mixing in a bit of snap,crackle and hiss. A bit of the old Joyce Hatto!
  Oh,and why not? A bit of shellac ambience. That's what computers are for. God,I could have saved myself a packet!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 02:26:03 PM
Or I could discover a pile of previously unknown 78's of Oskar Fried conducting an abridged 'Gothic' in my attic. I could be famous!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 30, 2011, 08:41:35 AM
It just occurred to me that the liveliest performance of 'Dr Merryheart' after the Hull Youth SO one is the one on the Dutton cd of radio broadcasts. The Naxos comes third!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 30, 2011, 08:46:23 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 30, 2011, 08:41:35 AM
It just occurred to me that the liveliest performance of 'Dr Merryheart' after the Hull Youth SO one is the one on the Dutton cd of radio broadcasts. The Naxos comes third!


Hm. That's with Del Mar, isn't it? It has been a few months, but I remember I thought he was a bit too slow in the great lyrical passage, making it sound too romantic = not totally Brianic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 30, 2011, 09:58:25 AM
I'll have another listen.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 30, 2011, 11:23:37 AM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 01:12:26 PM
One thing I know, I never want to hear the "Gothic."  (I can't fathom chorus and orchestra pieces, generally.)   Which is the "other" disc?

The 17/32/plus Naxos disc that Johan wots of:

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2011, 01:17:36 PM
You mean with Nos. 17 and 32? Well, the 'Gothic' is the stronger piece. But I like No. 17 in the BBC performance very much, too...

FWIW, Scarps, the first rumor I heard of the Gothic (more than ten years ago), I wasn't at all sure I wanted to hear the piece, either.  The tempered enthusiasm here began to alter that, I was becoming somewhat curious about the piece ityself, and then Luke's advocacy sealed it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 30, 2011, 11:35:33 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 30, 2011, 11:23:37 AMThe tempered enthusiasm here


Understatement of the day.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 30, 2011, 01:03:17 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 29, 2011, 02:18:58 PM
Why not record the shellac swishing at the end of one of your 78s and superimpose it on those newfangled digital recordings.  Then again, why not have shellac swishers in the concert hall!

Reminds me of Charles Ives' famous quote: "What's sound got to do with music?". Perfectly true. I've been revisiting some of Walter Goehr's old mono Concert Hall records and the music making just makes you forget the sound quality. You just sort of listen through it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 30, 2011, 01:39:26 PM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on March 30, 2011, 01:03:17 PM
Reminds me of Charles Ives' famous quote: "What's sound got to do with music?". Perfectly true. I've been revisiting some of Walter Goehr's old mono Concert Hall records and the music making just makes you forget the sound quality. You just sort of listen through it.


I recognise this - the vision carries all before it, and the perfection of the recorded sound loses (some of) its importance. I had to use all my aural archeology to listen through muddy Brian recordings the past 25 years, and try to assess the quality of the works in question.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on March 30, 2011, 04:27:38 PM
Listening the Havergal Brian, Symphony No 8, Groves.  Wow, this is good.  Howcome you guys never told me how good this stuff is?   ;D


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 30, 2011, 09:44:12 PM
Sorry for having guarded Brian's music jealously for so long, brother Scarpia...


Here, btw, is a review (from 1978) of the Groves recording of symphonies 8 and 9, by David Rudkin. It is by no means uncritical of Havergal Brian, but fair. (I found it on that great resource, JStor, which I can access through the Royal Library in The Hague.)


http://www.mediafire.com/file/fkxd7k2xkrjscnw/David%20Rudkin%20-%20Review%20of%20Brian%27s%208th%20and%209th%20%281978%29.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/fkxd7k2xkrjscnw/David%20Rudkin%20-%20Review%20of%20Brian%27s%208th%20and%209th%20%281978%29.pdf)


And here a review by Christopher Norris from 1975, of the Lyrita recording of Symphonies 6 & 16 and the CBS recording with Symphony No. 22, Psalm 23 and the English Suite No. 5 (with the LSSO):


http://www.mediafire.com/file/ttk8pf7h2qcq5y5/Review%20by%20Christopher%20Norris%20of%20the%20Lyrita%20and%20CBS%20Brian%20LPs.pdf
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 31, 2011, 02:57:08 AM
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5286/5359776762_5ff9aa7ea3_z.jpg)


A nice photo (by Calotyp46 on Flickr) of a bust of HB by sculptor Richard Thomas, as exhibited at the Potteries Museum & Art Gallery, Hanley, Staffordshire.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 31, 2011, 03:32:29 AM
Really sporting of Aaron Copland to sit as a model for another composer's bust!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 31, 2011, 03:35:38 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 31, 2011, 03:32:29 AM
Really sporting of Aaron Copland to sit as a model for another composer's bust!


That's the kind of guy he was. Havergal was off writing another symphony.


:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 31, 2011, 04:47:01 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 31, 2011, 03:35:38 AM

That's the kind of guy he was. Havergal was off writing another symphony.

:D

He certainly makes Aaron seem . . . lazy by comparison ; )

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 31, 2011, 02:42:14 AM
Havergal Brian Symphony #8 B flat minor, Groves conducting the RLPO

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/Brian78931.jpg)

Sarge

You guys! (Aye, Scarps, too.)  As my final music purchase for a month, I went and pulled the trigger on this two-fer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 31, 2011, 06:13:57 AM
Quote from: Apollon on March 31, 2011, 04:47:01 AMYou guys! (Aye, Scarps, too.)  As my final music purchase for a month, I went and pulled the trigger on this two-fer.

A sensible investment, old bean.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on March 31, 2011, 06:18:15 AM
It's kind of ridiculous how that EMI twofer seems to have gone out of print - it's the best and cheapest intro to the composer's music - even better than the Lyrita disc.

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 30, 2011, 09:44:12 PM
Here, btw, is a review (from 1978) of the Groves recording of symphonies 8 and 9, by David Rudkin. It is by no means uncritical of Havergal Brian, but fair. (I found it on that great resource, JStor, which I can access through the Royal Library in The Hague.)


http://www.mediafire.com/file/fkxd7k2xkrjscnw/David%20Rudkin%20-%20Review%20of%20Brian%27s%208th%20and%209th%20%281978%29.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/fkxd7k2xkrjscnw/David%20Rudkin%20-%20Review%20of%20Brian%27s%208th%20and%209th%20%281978%29.pdf)


And here a review by Christopher Norris from 1975, of the Lyrita recording of Symphonies 6 & 16 and the CBS recording with Symphony No. 22, Psalm 23 and the English Suite No. 5 (with the LSSO):


http://www.mediafire.com/file/ttk8pf7h2qcq5y5/Review%20by%20Christopher%20Norris%20of%20the%20Lyrita%20and%20CBS%20Brian%20LPs.pdf

That site's inaccessability, and yet ability to produce Google hits, has given me so many opportunities to rage over the past few years :) Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on March 31, 2011, 06:50:49 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 31, 2011, 06:13:57 AM
A sensible investment, old bean.

I share your sense of the 17th and 32nd being less strong than the Gothic (and yet, perfectly likeable on their own merits). I am confident that there is musical good to be had from this new 'shot in the dark' : )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 31, 2011, 07:32:33 AM
You won't regret it. As Sara says, the best single purchase one can make, Brian-wise. As I've repeated ad nauseum, I think the 8th is a simply phenomenal piece, my favourite Brian symphony, and its two bookends, 7 and 9, both also to be found on this set, are similarly wonderful. 7 is a big work, 8 and 9 more concise.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 31, 2011, 07:54:07 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 29, 2011, 02:12:55 PM
No.thank you for the offer,but I think I'll resist for the time being. I think you need it more than me. Anyway,I have the cd-r's & to be honest I have just spent a bit of a packet on some historical recordings. Some very strange people actually prefer listening to a couple of blokes playing into a horn or a 1920's microphone rather than something in state of the art digital sound. (I've got Dan Godfrey's 1920's recordings of VW's 'London Symphony' on at the moment.) But not all the time I hasten to add!
Brian's 'Gothic' could have been recorded in 1928!

NB: Dan Godfrey strikes me as a much better conductor than the jobber he's made out to be by some,judging by these recordings. Very impassioned playing & the swish of the shellac only adds to the evocative atmosphere.
Symposium have done a good job. Recommended!!!

OT - pity that Godfrey's performance is so chopped about and does not include that wonderful section in the epilogue which VW later excised (a mistake I think as this is for me the high point of the London Symphony) and which can still be heard in recordings by Goosens and Hickox.

Back on topic - I agree that Brian's Symphony No 8 is the best of all.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 31, 2011, 09:40:41 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 30, 2011, 09:44:12 PM
Sorry for having guarded Brian's music jealously for so long, brother Scarpia...


Here, btw, is a review (from 1978) of the Groves recording of symphonies 8 and 9, by David Rudkin. It is by no means uncritical of Havergal Brian, but fair. (I found it on that great resource, JStor, which I can access through the Royal Library in The Hague.)


http://www.mediafire.com/file/fkxd7k2xkrjscnw/David%20Rudkin%20-%20Review%20of%20Brian%27s%208th%20and%209th%20%281978%29.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/fkxd7k2xkrjscnw/David%20Rudkin%20-%20Review%20of%20Brian%27s%208th%20and%209th%20%281978%29.pdf)


And here a review by Christopher Norris from 1975, of the Lyrita recording of Symphonies 6 & 16 and the CBS recording with Symphony No. 22, Psalm 23 and the English Suite No. 5 (with the LSSO):


http://www.mediafire.com/file/ttk8pf7h2qcq5y5/Review%20by%20Christopher%20Norris%20of%20the%20Lyrita%20and%20CBS%20Brian%20LPs.pdf

Johan, thanks for sending me the JStor review of the Pye Tippett/LSSO 1968 LP. This always popped up on Google but I couldn't access JStor which was infuriating. I've also read the HB JStor reviews. Very interesting reading. Is there anything from 1972 with regard to the Unicorn 10/21?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 31, 2011, 10:04:37 AM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on March 31, 2011, 09:40:41 AM
Johan, thanks for sending me the JStor review of the Pye Tippett/LSSO 1968 LP. This always popped up on Google but I couldn't access JStor which was infuriating. I've also read the HB JStor reviews. Very interesting reading. Is there anything from 1972 with regard to the Unicorn 10/21?


I think I saw something on my latest trawl. I'll look into it later tonight.


Later: I found this short review of the CBS record by Robert Anderson, from The Musical Times:


http://www.mediafire.com/file/29ddl1hdhd2kdko/Robert%20Anderson%20-%20review%20%281975%29%20LSSO%20Brian%20%28CBS%29.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/29ddl1hdhd2kdko/Robert%20Anderson%20-%20review%20%281975%29%20LSSO%20Brian%20%28CBS%29.pdf)


There are many obituaries after Brian's death, and I think some of them will contain references to the LSSO performances. All in good time...


Still later: No. Didn't find a thing. But this early analysis by Deryck Cooke of The Gothic, ahead of the Boult performance in 1966, is interesting:


http://www.mediafire.com/file/fqf2pz4oos7wfhr/Deryck%20Cooke%20on%20The%20Gothic%20in%201966.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/fqf2pz4oos7wfhr/Deryck%20Cooke%20on%20The%20Gothic%20in%201966.pdf)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 31, 2011, 05:42:15 PM
Thanks for those! That article by Cooke is great - he describes the music well, precisely, succinctly, picks up on all the most salient points, and with a huge amount of understanding and sympathy. Lovely to read.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on March 31, 2011, 11:28:14 PM
Yes J Z - thanks indeed for those Mediafire links. I was especially gobsmacked by David Ruskin's summing-up of Brian's oeuvre:

(Brian's music)....embodies a man's insistence on the unique significance of his own life's inner journey, in a political environment increasingly hostile to the inner life.

Those final words could hardly be more apt today, and perhaps this is which HB's work holds such a fascination for so many of us on this Forum.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 01, 2011, 12:02:18 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on March 31, 2011, 11:28:14 PM
Yes J Z - thanks indeed for those Mediafire links. I was especially gobsmacked by David Ruskin's summing-up of Brian's oeuvre:

(Brian's music)....embodies a man's insistence on the unique significance of his own life's inner journey, in a political environment increasingly hostile to the inner life.

Those final words could hardly be more apt today, and perhaps this is which HB's work holds such a fascination for so many of us on this Forum.


As I read Rudkin's article some time ago, I had forgotten that quote. But yes - that's it, absolutely. Brian stayed doggedly true to his own inner vision and realised it against all odds. Every great artist does, of course. But the majority of them get recognised to make the journey less hazardous. That Brian outfaced all neglect is, to me, a continued inspiration. Apart from writing some of the richest and most powerful music I know.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 01, 2011, 12:47:50 AM
Deryck Cooke also wrote the programme to go with the Gothic performance in 1966. For the sake of completeness, I have also uploaded a scan of that (courtesy of a fellow GMG member) . Cooke characterises the climax of the Vivace very aptly...


http://www.mediafire.com/file/fc8cd3pv222z46h/HB_Gothic_programme_1966.zip
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on April 01, 2011, 11:48:56 AM
Danke for that, I like to read every scrap I can find about composers I have an interest in.

One day some enlightened individual will torrent every Musical Times article from JSTOR :P Heck it might be me if I ever encounter a library PC (that actually has access to it ) with a working USB port and no firewall preventing scripts. Okay that doesn't sound very likely :'(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 01, 2011, 11:50:56 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 01, 2011, 11:48:56 AM
Danke for that, I like to read every scrap I can find about composers I have an interest in.

One day some enlightened individual will torrent every Musical Times article from JSTOR :P Heck it might be me if I ever encounter a library PC (that actually has access to it ) with a working USB port and no firewall preventing scripts. Okay that doesn't sound very likely :'(


If you ever get an infuriating Google hit for JStor, contact me... I also have access to Project Muse and other resources.


I also saw some early articles by Robert Simpson about Brian, but they don't add anything to what we already know. Though they are of historic interest, of course.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Leo K. on April 01, 2011, 04:24:07 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 01, 2011, 11:48:56 AM
Danke for that, I like to read every scrap I can find about composers I have an interest in.

One day some enlightened individual will torrent every Musical Times article from JSTOR :P Heck it might be me if I ever encounter a library PC (that actually has access to it ) with a working USB port and no firewall preventing scripts. Okay that doesn't sound very likely :'(

I have access to JSTOR on my work PC. I'm always printing out good music articles... 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 02, 2011, 12:35:25 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 01, 2011, 04:24:07 PM
I have access to JSTOR on my work PC. I'm always printing out good music articles... 8)


Work PC? Printing things out?! I have access at home, 24/7.  :P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on April 03, 2011, 10:24:55 AM
Listened to Brians symphony No 8 properly, twice through.  Certainly there is a lot to be impressed with, beautifully wrought, cathartic sonorities, some really fine writing for brass.  However there is a certain kaleidescope quality, nothing seems to establish itself definitively before the proceedings break off and something else starts to develop.  I find myself wondering what the point of it all is.  Is it expressionistic, is it mystical, is it purely intellectual?  I find myself somewhat puzzled as to where this symphony is going.
 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2011, 10:46:35 AM
I think you 'got' the symphony, Scarpia. There are no winners in this work, there is no outcome. The work ends in the same darkness it started with. Two principles are at war - a militaristic, a lyrical one. Brian lets them 'battle it out', but neither is victorious. In the next symphony there is a triumph, but it doesn't seem really earned. Only in the Tenth you get a sense that Brian reaches a higher perspective - at the end of that work, there is a mystery, too. But not a dark one, like in the Eighth. More a sort of stoic acceptance of everything life can throw at you.


Your impression of a kaleidoscope is right, too. There are a lot of gear changes in Brian. One thing starts, stops, another thing begins. But all through that fragmentation a form is taking shape, in a very unconventional way. It can take some getting used to... When you listen to the Seventh, you'll encounter a more traditional structure, but still filled with unexpected twists and turns.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Leo K. on April 03, 2011, 10:50:43 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 02, 2011, 12:35:25 AM

Work PC? Printing things out?! I have access at home, 24/7.  :P

Lucky!  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2011, 10:54:31 AM
Quote from: Leo K on April 03, 2011, 10:50:43 AM
Lucky!  8)


Paid for, through my membership of the Royal Library...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on April 03, 2011, 04:12:02 PM
Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on April 03, 2011, 10:24:55 AM
Listened to Brians symphony No 8 properly, twice through.  Certainly there is a lot to be impressed with, beautifully wrought, cathartic sonorities, some really fine writing for brass.  However there is a certain kaleidescope quality, nothing seems to establish itself definitively before the proceedings break off and something else starts to develop.  I find myself wondering what the point of it all is.  Is it expressionistic, is it mystical, is it purely intellectual?  I find myself somewhat puzzled as to where this symphony is going.


As Johan said, that's basically it - the kaleidoscopic thing is very Brian! And Johan's analysis of the piece is also how I hear it - the military and the lyrical impulses playing off each other, forcing each other to new extremes, heights and depths. In the end, though, the symphony finds another way forwards, the switching to and fro is put aside and the music focuses on those two passacaglie. When I was talking about the way in which I hear this symphony putting aside symphonic convention and yet remaining true (truer than most, too) to what the idea of what 'symphony' really means, I was in part talking about the way Brian treats the idea of dichotomy in this piece.


Re the discontinuities - they are very much a part of Brian's style, something that he put there very deliberately and which can easily prove a stumbling block. Malcolm Macdonald points out that there are quite a few instances  when it seems as if the discontinuities have been imposed from outside, as it were - just gaps in the music, or changes of orchestration, and that if the gaps are closed up and the orchestral changes effaced by playing the whole thing on a piano, the music is often (certainly not always) revealed to have been a continuous polyphonic web. This is a strange compositional procedure - to create something continuous, and then to hide that continuity - and maybe tells us something about the way Brian composed, how he thought, what he valued in his music. But it also offers the listener a way in, too - try to hear the continuities even at the abrupt changes, and things may start to 'sound' differently.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 05, 2011, 01:38:03 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2011, 10:46:35 AM
More a sort of stoic acceptance of everything life can throw at you.

Any music which conveys stoic acceptance, looming catastrophe and mad, hopeless defiance always appeals to me.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 05, 2011, 01:41:44 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 05, 2011, 01:38:03 PM
Any music which conveys stoic acceptance, looming catastrophe and mad, hopeless defiance always appeals to me.  :D


It's the Churchillian mode par excellence, Jeffrey!


[On a more personal note - I have contacted two publishers through my literary connections today. I hope to have finished Part 1 of the novel (around 100,000 words) near 13 June, my 50th birthday. Exciting times...]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 05, 2011, 01:47:19 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 05, 2011, 01:41:44 PM

It's the Churchillian mode par excellence, Jeffrey!


[On a more personal note - I have contacted two publishers through my literary connections today. I hope to have finished Part 1 of the novel (around 100,000 words) near 13 June, my 50th birthday. Exciting times...]

Excellent news Johan - I hope that you will celebrate such significant milestones in style.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 05, 2011, 01:49:07 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 05, 2011, 01:47:19 PM
Excellent news Johan - I hope that you will celebrate such significant milestones in style.


Blessed relief will be a celebration in itself!  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on April 05, 2011, 02:06:31 PM
Bravo, Johan!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 05, 2011, 02:08:43 PM
Quote from: Apollon on April 05, 2011, 02:06:31 PM
Bravo, Johan!


Grazie, Karl.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 06, 2011, 02:28:31 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 05, 2011, 01:49:07 PM

Blessed relief will be a celebration in itself!  ;D

With your first magnum opus nearly complete Johan, you only have 31 more to write.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 06, 2011, 02:51:13 PM
Very droll, Jeffrey... ;) Perhaps  I will be struck by a Sibelian silence for the rest of my life!

Returning to Havergal Brian, I have fallen under the spell of the Cello Concerto. It did take a few listenings to get attuned to the beautifully rhapsodic nature of the work. In this respect alone it reminds me of Delius's Violin Concerto. The Cello Concerto seems to take up the story where we left it in Symphony No. 21, as its opening theme is a clear successor to that of the symphony's final movement. As Luke already observed, this ultimately very approachable and lovely concerto is an excellent way to get to know Brian's late style. The first movement is my favourite, it has some great flights of lyricism.

Malcolm MacDonald, in his three-part study, assigns Symphony No. 21, the Cello Concerto and the Concerto for Orchestra, to a 'becalmed' phase of stock-taking, just ahead of the strenuous trilogy of symphonies 22-24. Thanks to Dutton I have now discovered that the Cello Concerto and the Concerto for Orchestra are among Brian's most appealing works (others are, IMO, symphonies 6, 11, 15, 19 and 28).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on April 06, 2011, 02:55:45 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 06, 2011, 02:51:13 PM
Very droll, Jeffrey... ;) Perhaps  I will be struck by a Sibelian silence for the rest of my life!

Returning to Havergal Brian, I have fallen under the spell of the Cello Concerto. It did take a few listenings to get attuned to the beautifully rhapsodic nature of the work. In this respect alone it reminds me of Delius's Violin Concerto. The Cello Concerto seems to take up the story where we left it in Symphony No. 21, as its opening theme is a clear successor to that of the symphony's final movement. As Luke already observed, this ultimately very approachable and lovely concerto is an excellent way to get to know Brian's late style. The first movement is my favourite, it has some great flights of lyricism.

Malcolm MacDonald, in his three-part study, assigns Symphony No. 21, the Cello Concerto and the Concerto for Orchestra, to a 'becalmed' phase of stock-taking, just ahead of the strenuous trilogy of symphonies 22-24. Thanks to Dutton I have now discovered that the Cello Concerto and the Concerto for Orchestra are among Brian's most appealing works (others are, IMO, symphonies 6, 11, 15, 19 and 28).

My lord, how can someone keep so many works in the head? 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 06, 2011, 03:00:32 PM
Well, Scarpia, I have loved Brian's music for almost 33 years now, and since I got tapes of most of the symphonies during the late 1980s I have listened to them countless times. Keeping them apart is just as easy as with Beethoven's 32 piano sonatas. You simply live with the music. That's all...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on April 06, 2011, 03:03:45 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 06, 2011, 03:00:32 PM
Well, Scarpia, I have loved Brian's music for almost 33 years now, and since I got tapes of most of the symphonies during the late 1980s I have listened to them countless times. Keeping them apart is just as easy as with Beethoven's 32 piano sonatas. You simply live with the music. That's all...

Well, I can't call to mind each of Beethoven's 32 Sonatas either.   :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on April 06, 2011, 03:27:39 PM
With even Scarpia among the converts, I (an old semi-partly, once-a-HBS-subscribing-but-then-forgetting-to-pay-my-membership-fee, former Brianite myself) became so excited once more, that I find myself playing one or two Havergal Brian symphonies almost every day.

Today I listened to nos. 6-10, in a row. And I love them all.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 06, 2011, 03:33:52 PM
Great to hear it, Christo! I have the two new Dutton CDs on my mp3 player (with a few extra symphonies thrown in for good measure), and listen to them every day... Obsessive? Perhaps. That's love for you...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on April 06, 2011, 03:39:10 PM
 ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 06, 2011, 10:36:19 PM
Quote from: Christo on April 06, 2011, 03:27:39 PM
With even Scarpia among the converts, I (an old semi-partly, once-a-HBS-subscribing-but-then-forgetting-to-pay-my-membership-fee, former Brianite myself) became so excited once more, that I find myself playing one or two Havergal Brian symphonies almost every day.

Today I listened to nos. 6-10, in a row. And I love them all.  ;D

My relationship with the HB Society is/was the same as yours. I have just received the Orchestral Music of HB Volume 1 and look forward  in particular to hearing 'Rustic Scenes' (English Suite No 5) again - an old friend from an old CBS LSSO LP. Talking of which Symphony No 22 (Sinfonia Brevis) was on the same old LP and we definitely need a CD version of that too as I remember it as a fine work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 06, 2011, 10:41:51 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 06, 2011, 02:51:13 PM
Very droll, Jeffrey... ;) Perhaps  I will be struck by a Sibelian silence for the rest of my life!

No Johan I don't think so - I expect that you'll take the HB/Leif Segerstam route.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 07, 2011, 02:47:17 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 06, 2011, 10:41:51 PM
No Johan I don't think so - I expect that you'll take the HB/Leif Segerstam route.  ;D


Segerstam!? Heaven forbid! Compared to him, HB was a miser. If I am ever to reach those levels of productivity, I really must start drinking in earnest. My sobriety is a big handicap.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on April 07, 2011, 03:06:44 AM
Desperate to hear the cello concerto after these descriptions! It's now the most important English cello concerto I haven't heard (recently acquired the Foulds thanks to a forum member).

Ooh it's coupled with Bush (sometimes his music is very interesting. I love the 3 studies for piano trio. Coincidentally I just heard his Sinfonietta Concertante for cello and orchestra), and Bowen (his music is virtually never interesting). I'm going to have to get this.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on April 08, 2011, 08:06:09 AM
A few high res images (I haven't seen many):

(http://img858.imageshack.us/img858/1486/mw85738.jpg) (http://img858.imageshack.us/img858/1486/mw85738.jpg)

(http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/952/havergalbrian.jpg) (http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/952/havergalbrian.jpg) (http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/952/havergalbrian.jpg) (http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/952/havergalbrian.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 08, 2011, 08:15:31 AM
Always nice to see the man himself! I have a picture of his bust leaning against my monitor... In Brian's case, though, the face doesn't reveal  a lot. For what went on inside, we have to listen to the music, and even there, he doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve. An enigmatic man!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 08, 2011, 01:21:55 PM
Just checked the site of the Havergal Brian Society. A new addition: an introductory talk on Brian's music  (58 minutes) by Malcolm MacDonald. I haven't yet listened to it myself, but I will...


http://www.havergalbrian.org/hb_mm.mp3 (http://www.havergalbrian.org/hb_mm.mp3)


Added: I have just learned that symphonies 22-24 and English Suite No. 1 will now be recorded in June (by Naxos).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on April 08, 2011, 03:24:13 PM
I cross my fingers that Naxos completing the cycle doesn't discourage other labels like Dutton from duplicating recording of performances - especially of the older Marco Polo ones.

I wish I could be more enthusiastic about the inbound Naxos disc but I'm not sure that they are the label to really produce the most ideal recordings of the music. I'll still be buying the disc, of course.

Thanks for the link as well!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 08, 2011, 03:34:59 PM
I fully share your concern, Sara. The Naxos Brian cycle has been a mixed bag, whereas both Dutton CDs are wonderful... Let's wait and see (listen, rather).

MM's introduction is excellent. Heartily recommended to anyone wanting a short, sharp idea of what Brian is all about.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on April 08, 2011, 03:58:31 PM
Listening now, thanks! This is a more professional job than I had anticipated - also, the fellow has a very distinctive voice.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 09, 2011, 03:32:09 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 08, 2011, 01:21:55 PM
Added: I have just learned that symphonies 22-24 and English Suite No. 1 will now be recorded in June (by Naxos).


I'm more excited about this than Lethe. If the Naxos series isn't ideal it's still preferable to nothing, and recordings of 22-24 will fill a serious gap and be very welcomed by me. MacDonald says: "I believe that if the three were performed together....the result would enhance them all. They would be seen as Prelude-Exposition, Developement and Triumphal Finale plus Epilogue in a grand unified design."

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on April 09, 2011, 04:17:44 AM
:) I hadn't considered that - it will definitely cool to hear symphonic "brothers" alongside each other rather than the usual potpourri. I'm most looking forward to a label making a professional recording of the 27th - it has a little more breathing space than some of the other late works, which makes the usual density of content a little easier to understand. I think that's why it was an early favourite for me when I heard the Mackerras broadcast courtesy of Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 09, 2011, 04:21:55 AM
My next 'dream' CD would be Brabbins on Dutton, with symphonies 13, 14, 27 and 28. If I were a millionaire...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 09, 2011, 04:37:31 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 09, 2011, 04:21:55 AM
If I were a millionaire...

You will be, Johan, as soon as your novel makes the Dutch equivalent of the NY Times Best Sellers list  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 09, 2011, 04:51:25 AM
I think, Sarge, I'll attract a small following of persevering souls (already have them), just like HB. And you know how affluent he was...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: not edward on April 09, 2011, 06:09:27 AM
Any word on the performers on the Naxos disc?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 09, 2011, 07:06:29 AM
Quote from: edward on April 09, 2011, 06:09:27 AM
Any word on the performers on the Naxos disc?


If nothing has changed except the recording date, it's the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by James Judd.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on April 09, 2011, 08:50:43 AM
Well, it's a good band, and I like the other recordings I've heard with Judd.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 10, 2011, 10:29:44 AM
This made me do a double-take just now:

1967  April 15  The Simpsons visit the Brians

(Malcolm MacDonald, The Symphonies of Havergal Brian, vol. 2, p. 285)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 14, 2011, 07:17:51 AM
It's official -


Sunday 17 July
7.00pm – c. 9.00pm
Royal Albert Hall

Choral music and singing events
Brian
Symphony No. 1 in D minor, 'The Gothic' (110 mins)



http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2011/july-17/5 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2011/july-17/5)


:o :D :)


Booking for BBC Proms

Booking opens at 9.00am on Saturday 7 May:
- online at www.royalalberthall.com
- by telephone on 0845 401 5040*
- in person at the Royal Albert Hall
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 14, 2011, 08:30:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 08, 2011, 01:21:55 PM
Just checked the site of the Havergal Brian Society. A new addition: an introductory talk on Brian's music  (58 minutes) by Malcolm MacDonald. I haven't yet listened to it myself, but I will...


http://www.havergalbrian.org/hb_mm.mp3 (http://www.havergalbrian.org/hb_mm.mp3)


Added: I have just learned that symphonies 22-24 and English Suite No. 1 will now be recorded in June (by Naxos).

Great to see Symphony No 22 back again - I remember it well from a very old CBS LP.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on April 14, 2011, 08:46:32 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 14, 2011, 07:17:51 AM
It's official -

Sunday 17 July
7.00pm – c. 9.00pm
Royal Albert Hall

Choral music and singing events
Brian
Symphony No. 1 in D minor, 'The Gothic' (110 mins)



http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2011/july-17/5 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2011/july-17/5)


:o :D :)


Booking for BBC Proms

Booking opens at 9.00am on Saturday 7 May:
- online at www.royalalberthall.com (http://www.royalalberthall.com/)
- by telephone on 0845 401 5040*
- in person at the Royal Albert Hall

Très cool!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 14, 2011, 08:50:51 AM
Quote from: Apollon on April 14, 2011, 08:46:32 AM
Très cool!


Indeed. The online ordering system seems to be nerve-wracking, by the way, with no certainty if you'll get your seat... I think I'll write to the Havergal Brian Society to ask whether it can reserve tickets for members... It would be sad not to be able to attend.


Quote from: vandermolen on April 14, 2011, 08:30:25 AM
Great to see Symphony No 22 back again - I remember it well from a very old CBS LP.


So do I. With English Suite No. 5 and Psalm 23...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 14, 2011, 08:51:54 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 14, 2011, 07:17:51 AM
It's official -


Sunday 17 July
7.00pm – c. 9.00pm
Royal Albert Hall

Choral music and singing events
Brian
Symphony No. 1 in D minor, 'The Gothic' (110 mins)



http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2011/july-17/5 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2011/july-17/5)


:o :D :)


Booking for BBC Proms

Booking opens at 9.00am on Saturday 7 May:
- online at www.royalalberthall.com
- by telephone on 0845 401 5040*
- in person at the Royal Albert Hall

Very exciting news - I hope to be there if I possibly can. Which of the Simpsons will be conducting?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 14, 2011, 08:54:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 14, 2011, 08:51:54 AM
Very exciting news - I hope to be there if I possibly can. Which of the Simpsons will be conducting?


Lisa. The saxophone wasn't enough for her.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 14, 2011, 08:57:06 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 14, 2011, 08:30:25 AM
Great to see Symphony No 22 back again - I remember it well from a very old CBS LP.

I was just listening to it the other day...posted my scan of the cover in the listening thread.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/brian22LP.jpg)



Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 14, 2011, 08:59:29 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 14, 2011, 08:50:51 AM
Indeed. The online ordering system seems to be nerve-wracking, by the way, with no certainty if you'll get your seat...

Yeah, tickets won't actually be on sale until next month but they suggest making a "Proms Plan"...which seems a lot of work and guaranties nothing.


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on April 14, 2011, 09:18:51 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 14, 2011, 08:59:29 AM
... a lot of work and guaranties nothing.

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-haaa!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on April 14, 2011, 09:51:17 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 14, 2011, 07:17:51 AM
It's official -
Sunday 17 July
7.00pm – c. 9.00pm
Royal Albert Hall

Brian - Symphony No. 1 in D minor, 'The Gothic' (110 mins)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2011/july-17/5 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2011/july-17/5)

Terrific news.  :o :o :o :P :) What a pity I can't be there - I would, I would, but we planned to have arrived at our destination in Italy already, that Sunday. BTW, what a list of performers. Who is NOT in it, one wonders ...  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 14, 2011, 11:47:37 AM
Quote from: Christo on April 14, 2011, 09:51:17 AM
Terrific news.  :o :o :o :P :) What a pity I can't be there - I would, I would, but we planned to have arrived at our destination in Italy already, that Sunday. BTW, what a list of performers. Who is NOT in it, one wonders ...  ;)


Half of choral Britain...


Susan Gritton soprano
Christine Rice mezzo-soprano
Peter Auty tenor
Alastair Miles bass

CBSO Youth Chorus
Eltham College Boys' Choir
Southend Boys' and Girls' Choirs
Bach Choir
BBC National Chorus of Wales
Brighton Festival Chorus
Côr Caerdydd
Huddersfield Choral Society
London Symphony Chorus

BBC Concert Orchestra
BBC National Orchestra of Wales

Martyn Brabbins conductor



I heard Roger Wright, the Proms 'boss', on Radio 4 tonight, saying that finding adequate rehearsal space for all these forces was a logistical nightmare in itself. Alexandra Palace is the place where the 'Gothic' will be resounding first. I think the 'Symphony of a Thousand' nickname should now really be applied to 'The Gothic'!


My greatest hopes for this major event are: 1) the work gets an unforgettable performance and 2) Brian's reputation grows, leading to a new 'Brian Renaissance'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on April 14, 2011, 09:58:59 PM
There does seem to be an upsurge in interest in Brian. Roger Wright was interviewed on Radio 3 yesterday evening and said that although he himself was not convinced of Brian's importance, many people, whose opinions he respected, were so convinced. Which is the most positive comment about Brian on the BBC since Robert Simpson died.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 15, 2011, 01:14:20 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 14, 2011, 08:57:06 AM
I was just listening to it the other day...posted my scan of the cover in the listening thread.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/brian22LP.jpg)



Sarge
That's the one! Nice to see the cover again - a nostalgia trip so thanks for posting.  The image is rather similar to the one used by EMI on the original CD release of Groves's version of symphonies 8 and 9.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 15, 2011, 01:53:12 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on April 14, 2011, 09:58:59 PM
There does seem to be an upsurge in interest in Brian. Roger Wright was interviewed on Radio 3 yesterday evening and said that although he himself was not convinced of Brian's importance, many people, whose opinions he respected, were so convinced. Which is the most positive comment about Brian on the BBC since Robert Simpson died.


In his blog Roger Wright also says he's not in the business of claiming 'The Gothic' is a masterpiece, but that it's a work deserving of a hearing, so that people can make up their own minds.


I applaud any publicity Brian's music gets. It's essential people know it's there and that it can offer you a very special musical experience. If this event leads to performances of other Brian symphonies and/or Brabbins gets the status of 'Brian conductor', something very important will have been achieved.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 15, 2011, 02:08:42 AM
The Brisbane Gothic is scheduled to be broadcast on 4MBS on Saturday 4 June at 8pm, Brisbane time (UTC+10h),  which is  9 hours ahead of UK BST, so equivalent to 11am the same day in the UK.  As 4MBS is available online, Brian lovers worldwide with Internet access will be able to hear the performance for themselves.  Just searching for '4MBS listen online' will easily find their website.


(Culled from the latest HBS Newsletter)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 15, 2011, 02:39:13 AM
Another ambitious project is a performance of The Gothic Symphony by Havergal Brian, packing a cast of more than 1,000 musicians from 10 choirs and two orchestras into the Royal Albert Hall.  Mr Wright joked that 'it will probably be the fastest to sell out because when the performers are in place there will be hardly any room for the audience'.

Interview with Roger Wright, director of BBC Proms in Daily Telegraph (15/04/11)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on April 15, 2011, 02:56:38 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on April 14, 2011, 09:58:59 PM
There does seem to be an upsurge in interest in Brian. Roger Wright was interviewed on Radio 3 yesterday evening and said that although he himself was not convinced of Brian's importance, many people, whose opinions he respected, were so convinced.

What is importance in art, and what is its degree of importance to art?

QuoteWhich is the most positive comment about Brian on the BBC since Robert Simpson died.

Quite an arid positive comment, then ; )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 15, 2011, 03:17:10 AM
Quote from: Apollon on April 15, 2011, 02:56:38 AM
What is importance in art, and what is its degree of importance to art?


I think importance is important..., whether you consider it only a matter of perception, or something intrinsic to the person or work in question. Importance works like gravity - the more ascribed to you, the more people, money, influence you draw into your sphere, whether deservedly so, or not. And whether you deserve it, is the battle that has to be fought, by you, by those 'believing' in you. I think it matters to art, too. Defining what is worthy of attention, and what not, is what taste is all about and, considering the shortness of human life, a very useful service, too.

QuoteQuite an arid positive comment, then ; )


I agree he is sitting on the fence. But I think he has to. Taking Brian seriously is still not done in some circles.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on April 15, 2011, 04:25:20 AM
I largely agree, Johan . . . but then, we're already qualifying importance to mean worthy of attention, focusing perhaps on the artwork as a chose-en-soi.  There is still a broad tendency to restrict importance in art to a sort of Darwinian, results-driven model: what does that artist's work do for the subsequent practice of the art?. And even that question gets treated in something of a narrow, linear fashion.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 15, 2011, 04:31:59 AM
Quote from: Apollon on April 15, 2011, 04:25:20 AM
I largely agree, Johan . . . but then, we're already qualifying importance to mean worthy of attention, focusing perhaps on the artwork as a chose-en-soi.  There is still a broad tendency to restrict importance in art to a sort of Darwinian, results-driven model: what does that artist's work do for the subsequent practice of the art?. And even that question gets treated in something of a narrow, linear fashion.


I don't believe in the 'results-driven model', either. That's an idea of Progress that has nothing to do with art. Shakespeare doesn't write more advanced, and thus better tragedies than Aeschylus and Sophocles. Humanity advances through time, but the art reflecting it is always equidistant to this progression.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on April 15, 2011, 05:33:16 AM
There is that (I think) TS Eliot saying that the present changes the past as much as vice versa. If Brian is properly "rediscovered" and becomes a more respected figure, then the previous line of progress will be irrelevent and modified to fit. Whether his influence on composition was small or not in the years during and after his death, if eventually the recognition comes, that is a sufficient vindication.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 15, 2011, 07:55:00 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 15, 2011, 05:33:16 AM
There is that (I think) TS Eliot saying that the present changes the past as much as vice versa. If Brian is properly "rediscovered" and becomes a more respected figure, then the previous line of progress will be irrelevent and modified to fit. Whether his influence on composition was small or not in the years during and after his death, if eventually the recognition comes, that is a sufficient vindication.


Yes, it was Eliot who said that a great new work alters our perception of the works of the past. And yes, if Brian is admitted to the canon of (British) composers, the general view of the history of the (British) symphony will have to be modified.


But let's wait, listen, and see...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on April 15, 2011, 10:32:59 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 15, 2011, 04:31:59 AM

I don't believe in the 'results-driven model', either. That's an idea of Progress that has nothing to do with art. Shakespeare doesn't write more advanced, and thus better tragedies than Aeschylus and Sophocles. Humanity advances through time, but the art reflecting it is always equidistant to this progression.

Well formulated indeed. And I don't think this `equidistance' to human history only applies to art, but perhaps to other worthwhile things (like values, morals, ethics) as well.  ;)

My copy of the perhaps the greatest cd of the present HB Renaissance finally arrived. Now playing this second reading (I'm the happy owner of the world famous Leicesthershire Schools SO's world premiere recording  8)) of the epic-tragic Tenth Symphony (1954) in glorious new sound:

                         (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4195uJJxt0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 15, 2011, 11:11:46 PM
Quote from: Christo on April 15, 2011, 10:32:59 PM
Well formulated indeed. And I don't think this `equidistance' to human history only applies to art, but perhaps to other worthwhile things (like values, morals, ethics) as well.  ;)

My copy of the perhaps the greatest cd of the present HB Renaissance finally arrived. Now playing this second reading (I'm the happy owner of the world famous Leicesthershire Schools SO's world premiere recording  8) ) of the epic-tragic Tenth Symphony (1954) in glorious new sound:

                         (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4195uJJxt0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


Extending the equidistance... I can endorse that, but only if applied to the golden rule of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Apart from that, I dislike the word 'values', because it implies fluctuation and tradeoffs. The term is economic and at variance with universality.


As for "perhaps the greatest cd of the present HB Renaissance" - no disagreement here. I have listened to it countless times already. It's a Brian feast (some people would consider that an oxymoron, but who cares!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 16, 2011, 03:09:22 PM
Dr Merryheart rules!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 16, 2011, 03:12:44 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 16, 2011, 03:09:22 PM
Dr Merryheart rules!


Do you know Bernard Herrmann conducted it once, in the 1940s? He loved British music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 16, 2011, 03:43:23 PM
No,I didn't. I'm not suprised in a way though,because this is after all,a man who premiered commercial recordings of Raff & Cyril Scott! (I love his film scores too.) I believe he paid for some of these performances too. I've got some old ex Swansea library Lp's of his 'Wuthering Heights' opera somewhere.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 16, 2011, 03:55:57 PM
I recently put the Forlane recordings of the 'Symphonic Variations' and 'Dances' from 'The Tigers' on a cd-r (no annoying break!) coupled with the Dutton performance of the 'English Suite No 3'. They make an ideal coupling.
If only the Second English Suite would turn up! That might have made an even better coupling. 'Night portraits' sounds right up my street & very,very intriguing! I wonder what the chances of it lying somewhere forgotten are? But I understand the HBS has been looking for lost works like this for years. Didn't they have an 'investigations officer' of some kind?
I'll have to dig out my genuine gwaun valley hazel wood dowsing pendulum!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 17, 2011, 11:46:05 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 16, 2011, 03:55:57 PM
I recently put the Forlane recordings of the 'Symphonic Variations' and 'Dances' from 'The Tigers' on a cd-r (no annoying break!) coupled with the Dutton performance of the 'English Suite No 3'. They make an ideal coupling.
If only the Second English Suite would turn up! That might have made an even better coupling. 'Night portraits' sounds right up my street & very,very intriguing! I wonder what the chances of it lying somewhere forgotten are? But I understand the HBS has been looking for lost works like this for years. Didn't they have an 'investigations officer' of some kind?
I'll have to dig out my genuine gwaun valley hazel wood dowsing pendulum!!!


You're right. But nothing has been heard from him in years. I think he's lost, too. So dig out your pendulum!


Seriously, that Second English Suite sounds indeed intriguing and it's a great pity it has disappeared. If more people had cared about HB's music, his oeuvre would have been intact.


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2011, 03:55:27 AM
Perhaps another reward. If I was a millionaire I could offer a million for 'Prometheus Unbound',maybe something would turn up.
Still,at least they found 'The Tigers'!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 18, 2011, 04:05:41 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 17, 2011, 11:46:05 AM
You're right. But nothing has been heard from him in years. I think he's lost, too.

Oh my...does this mean HB was the center of some paranormal Bermuda Triangle-like vortex that sucked his music, and any searchers of his music, into oblivion?  :o

:D ;D :D


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on April 18, 2011, 04:10:43 AM
I think I live on the verge of that vortex myself.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 18, 2011, 04:21:31 AM
Quote from: Apollon on April 18, 2011, 04:10:43 AM
I think I live on the verge of that vortex myself.

There is indeed some powerful force pulling us towards your wonderful music, Karl.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2011, 04:22:39 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 18, 2011, 04:05:41 AM
Oh my...does this mean HB was the center of some paranormal Bermuda Triangle-like vortex that sucked his music, and any searchers of his music, into oblivion?  :o

Yes. Every living Brianite is a survivor.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on April 18, 2011, 04:25:50 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2011, 04:22:39 AM
Yes. Every living Brianite is a survivor.  :D

I like that!

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 18, 2011, 04:21:31 AM
There is indeed some powerful force pulling us towards your wonderful music, Karl.

The generosity of such a kind comment is a great gift this morning, thank you, Sarge!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2011, 04:33:46 AM
Actually,I think he snuffed it!
The only other explanation would be that the missing 'Havergal Brian Society Investigations Officer' is now the subject of ongoing investigations by the current 'Havergal Brian Society Investigations Officer'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2011, 04:36:26 AM
It's like something out of 'The Avengers'!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2011, 04:50:19 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 18, 2011, 04:36:26 AM
It's like something out of 'The Avengers'!

Or Kafka.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2011, 05:04:30 AM
My million pound reward would find him.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on April 18, 2011, 05:12:50 AM
Your million pound reward would probably convince a few modern composers to try to forge it ;D

Also, surprised at how demanding of attention the English Suites are - light music they are not.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2011, 05:21:31 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 18, 2011, 05:12:50 AMAlso, surprised at how demanding of attention the English Suites are - light music they are not.

No. You have to listen to the Third English Suite (to mention only that one) several times. It's compressed, elliptic, but has turned into a firm favourite with me, movements 2 and 5 especially.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: The new erato on April 18, 2011, 05:49:56 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 18, 2011, 05:04:30 AM
My million pound reward would find him.
Please send them to me and I will send you the manuscript of his 33rd symphony. The hitherto unknown "To Joyce" symphony, aka "the Mad Hatto".
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2011, 05:51:34 AM
Yes,definately a misnomer. We're certainly not talking Eric Coates here. (Although nothing wrong with Coates,my elderly mothers eyes lit up when I played that London thingummy!)
I notice the HB Unicorn cd is being offered for £112.74p on Amazon. Condition: New. It better be!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2011, 05:53:48 AM
A genuine Hatto would be some consolation after you'd settled into your mansion.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on April 18, 2011, 06:06:35 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2011, 05:21:31 AM
No. You have to listen to the Third English Suite (to mention only that one) several times. It's compressed, elliptic, but has turned into a firm favourite with me, movements 2 and 5 especially.

Movements 1 and 4 struck me most on the first few listens (admittedly because the opening of the 4th reminded me of a Bantock Heroic ballad ::)). My brain no doubt just paid more attention to the movements with the titles I liked best :D I certainly am going to take a bit longer to take seriously the "Merry Peasant" movement ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2011, 06:12:14 AM
My Unicorn disc is playable, but time has done something to it...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2011, 06:19:14 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 18, 2011, 06:06:35 AM
Movements 1 and 4 struck me most on the first few listens (admittedly because the opening of the 4th reminded me of a Bantock Heroic ballad ::) ). My brain no doubt just paid more attention to the movements with the titles I liked best :D I certainly am going to take a bit longer to take seriously the "Merry Peasant" movement ;D


My reason for liking those movements so much is - they show you Brian at his swiftest and most mercurial, with lots of orchestral invention, akin to what he demonstrates in 'The Tigers'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2011, 06:36:24 AM
Nice colour,almost as if you've been 'awarded' a bronze disc for you're dedication to the Brian cause!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2011, 07:22:18 AM
I think I deserve gold... ;-) But it's the taking part that counts (ahem).

Just thought - a neglected composer gets neglected fans.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2011, 07:45:34 AM
It is gold-ish!
I had a s/h copy of the Unicorn cd of Cipriani Potter symphonies recently. That was a bronze. Very enjoyable too.
It's green you have to worry about or purple turning slowly to black when they don't work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2011, 08:16:17 AM
I must admit to sharing some of the reservations expressed her regarding Naxos doing more Brian. I should be delighted I know,but I feel a bit like I did when I heard that Cameo Classics were planning to do Holbrooke with East European orchestra's. I was like a character in one of those awful soaps, ie :

NooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooH!

I just wanted it to be Dutton (or Toccatta).
As you know by now,I'm not a big fan of (most of) the Naxos recordings.                                 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on April 18, 2011, 08:20:08 AM
I read somewhere that Cameo were also pondering Brian's 5th. Frankly, anybody who records that piece, regardless of the location of the forces, is worth supporting ;) Especially as it shouldn't be a problem to ship a British soloist along with the conductor, and much of the weight in deciding a successful or unsuccessful performance should fall upon them.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2011, 08:33:21 AM
@Cilgwyn I know the feeling (Oh no!) My first preference would now be Dutton... But as I said, let's wait and listen. There have been a few good apples in the Naxos/Brian cart.

@Lethe I think Brian is very good in the concerto form. Violin Concerto - excellent. Cello Concerto - lovely. Concerto for Orchestra - typical late Brian, but shot through with lyricism. And Symphony No. 5, 'Wine of Summer', which could be considered a 'Baritone Concerto', is a winner, too. Very spare, clean, and understatedly poetic. I hope, like you, it will be recorded one day. Fortunately, there have been two radio broadcasts, one in 1976 and one in 2008 (?), and the former, with Brian Rayner Cook, is excellent.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on April 18, 2011, 08:45:40 AM
Playing standards amongst provincial orchestras have increased markedly since those Marco Polo recordings, I wouldn't be surprised if it beats the best of those older ones.

I do have your Mediafire folder to thank for introducing me to the 5th via Cook, it is wonderful.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2011, 09:02:52 AM
I have to say if Cameo did record Brian's Fifth I would probably buy it East European orchestra or not.
If they release a major work by Holbrooke I would probably buy it,albeit with some trepidation. But the thought of a slavonic wobbler doing the 'Wine of a Summer' might just put me off ('The Wobble of Summer'?)
I have nothing against East Europeans though. The only time I ever got free beer in a pub all night was in a pub run by a Pole! And it is true that these orchestra's have got better.
I am fairly open minded. I ordered the Classico recording of Bax's Sixth symphony s/h earlier today & I know that the Munich forces he used aren't regarded as exactly top of the tree.
Incidentally,I quite like the Slavonic wobble at times,particularly in some of those wonderful old communist era Supraphon recordings. Just not to much & NOT in the 'Wobble'....I mean,'Wine of Summer'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2011, 09:03:52 AM
I have to say if Cameo did record Brian's Fifth I would probably buy it East European orchestra or not.
If they release a major work by Holbrooke I would probably buy it,albeit with some trepidation. But the thought of a slavonic wobbler doing the 'Wine of a Summer' might just put me off ('The Wobble of Summer'?)
I have nothing against East Europeans though. The only time I ever got free beer in a pub all night was in a pub run by a Pole! And it is true that these orchestra's have got better.
I am fairly open minded. I ordered the Classico recording of Bax's Sixth symphony s/h earlier today & I know that the Munich forces he used aren't regarded as exactly top of the tree.
Incidentally,I quite like the Slavonic wobble at times,particularly in some of those wonderful old communist era Supraphon recordings. Just not to much & NOT in the 'Wobble'....I mean,'Wine of Summer'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2011, 09:07:00 AM
Have I just developed double vision or is that two of me? I knew I shouldn't have mentioned beer!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on April 18, 2011, 09:13:57 AM
Did somebody say beer!?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on April 18, 2011, 09:14:04 AM
Did somebody say beer!?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2011, 09:15:37 AM
I knew I SHOULDN'T have been to Specsavers!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2011, 09:56:27 AM
Only one saucepan of milk on the stove. I'm making progress.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Superhorn on April 18, 2011, 02:37:55 PM
    Get this -  at the annual Proms in London this Summer,  the British conductor Martyn Brabbins is actually going to be conducting the "Gothic Symphony", I belueve with the BBC symphony and about half the population of London ! 
    The Gothic symphony is the halley's comet of classical music -it  gets performed with extreme rarity,naturally because of the humongous forces required to do it .  This should be something. Could there possibly be a recording?
   
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on April 18, 2011, 02:39:45 PM
Quote from: Superhorn on April 18, 2011, 02:37:55 PM
    Get this -  at the annual Proms in London this Summer,  the British conductor Martyn Brabbins is actually going to be conducting the "Gothic Symphony", I belueve with the BBC symphony and about half the population of London ! 
    The Gothic symphony is the halley's comet of classical music -it  gets performed with extreme rarity,naturally because of the humongous forces required to do it .  This should be something. Could there possibly be a recording?


Apparently you are unaware that the fanatics have been discussing that fact for the last 20 pages or so on this thread.   8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on April 18, 2011, 02:41:36 PM
Quote from: Superhorn on April 18, 2011, 02:37:55 PM
Could there possibly be a recording?

I believe that, as with the recent premiere of Foulds' Requiem, it is too high profile for the (certain) recording not to be commercially released at some point. I presume that the BBC habitually records every proms performance, whether it is made available later or not.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 19, 2011, 08:47:17 PM
Quote from: Superhorn on April 18, 2011, 02:37:55 PM
    Get this -  at the annual Proms in London this Summer,  the British conductor Martyn Brabbins is actually going to be conducting the "Gothic Symphony", I belueve with the BBC symphony and about half the population of London ! 
    The Gothic symphony is the halley's comet of classical music -it  gets performed with extreme rarity,naturally because of the humongous forces required to do it .  This should be something. Could there possibly be a recording?


God, I hope so!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 19, 2011, 08:50:55 PM
I own all the Naxos and Hyperion recordings so far of Brian's music. I'm anxiously awaiting that Toccata disc that has been mentioned previously in this thread.

Anyway, getting back to the music, I find Brian's use of brass just incredible. Yes, sometimes his orchestration can be thick, but there is such drive, passion, and mystery to this man's music. I shall be revisiting all of the recordings I own soon.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on April 19, 2011, 09:57:48 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 19, 2011, 08:50:55 PM
I find Brian's use of brass just incredible.

I love the fact that the first time I hear it, the entrace of the brass just seems so out of place and making no sense. But unpn repeated listening, it becomes the most logical and natural thing in the world, and just perfect. It just couldn't be any other way. That is the best way I can describe Brian's music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on April 19, 2011, 11:45:48 PM
Yes, there is more to Brian's music than just getting it right :P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 19, 2011, 11:48:13 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 19, 2011, 08:50:55 PM
 I own all the Naxos and Hyperion recordings so far of Brian's music. I'm anxiously awaiting that Toccata disc that has been mentioned previously in this thread.
 
 Anyway, getting back to the music, I find Brian's use of brass just incredible. Yes, sometimes his orchestration can be thick, but there is such drive, passion, and mystery to this man's music. I shall be revisiting all of the recordings I own soon.

 MI, if you are revisiting your recordings, the performances of the Violin Concerto, and symphonies 11 (first movement too fast, though), 12, 15, 17, 20, 25, 32 are good. I know your budget won't be limitless, but two CDs are essential in any Brian collection - the Lyrita with 6 & 16 and the new Dutton with symphonies 10 & 30, the Concerto for Orchestra and English Suite No. 3...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 19, 2011, 11:52:31 PM
I forgot the biggest elephant in the room - The Gothic!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on April 19, 2011, 11:58:22 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 19, 2011, 11:48:13 PM
but two CDs are essential in any Brian collection - the Lyrita with 6 & 16 and the new Dutton with symphonies 10 & 30, the Concerto for Orchestra and English Suite No. 3...

don't forget (I know you wouldn't, though!) the Groves/Mackerras twofer - 7, 8, 9, and 31 + The Tinker's Wedding, very fine performances of some of Brian's very finest works. To have the sequence 7-9 available in such quality in one place is a real dream.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 20, 2011, 12:01:34 AM
Quote from: Luke on April 19, 2011, 11:58:22 PM
don't forget (I know you wouldn't, though!) the Groves/Mackerras twofer - 7, 8, 9, and 31 + The Tinker's Wedding, very fine performances of some of Brian's very finest works. To have the sequence 7-9 available in such quality in one place is a real dream.


Agreed, of course! I didn't mention it, because it's OOP, more's the pity.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on April 20, 2011, 12:10:03 AM
It's a crime, I know. But one can still get hold of it easily enough. There are 5 copies on amazon.uk at the moment, cheapest £15 - an essential purchase for anyone remotely interested in Brian or, indeed, in the 20th century symphony, I'd have thought.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 20, 2011, 02:32:40 AM
You've got to keep on looking. I was lucky,I got mine from a seller for about £2.00 plus p&p. It was so cheap I thought there would be something wrong with it! But it was in excellent condition. Of course I had the Lp's years ago. I wish I'd hung onto them really,but I never seem to have enough room! Or I've got the big bad wolf banging at my door.
The original emi Lp had a wonderful photograph of Brian on the cover. A very striking cover image.
Some very good photographs were taken of Brian towards the end of his life,after his belated re-discovery. ( But as the old saying goes,better late than never).
I suppose Brian was pretty lucky compared to the embittered Joseph Holbrooke.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 20, 2011, 02:38:40 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 20, 2011, 02:32:40 AM
I suppose Brian was pretty lucky compared to the embittered Joseph Holbrooke.


Brian had the luck to live to a ripe old age. Holbrooke had more ego, was pushy, and didn't succeed, whereas Brian forged ahead regardless of outward success and realised his dream completely.


A real artist. And an inspiration.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 20, 2011, 03:33:26 AM
Bantock,Bowen & Brian all seemed to have understood that creative success isn't just about personal gain. Remember that interview where Brian was asked whether he considered himself a failiure? I haven't got a transcription to hand,but I remember him telling the interviewer that he felt he had achieved everything he had set out to do. I think Brian had some aspirations early on in his career,but later on he realised that his main fulfillment in life was the act of composition.
I find some of Holbrooke's music intriguing & would have to hear some of his most important works,like 'Apollo & the Seaman' before I can really access the value of his music. I also feel a little sorry for the man,underneath all that ranting & vindictiveness he was very supportive towards his fellow composers,so I think there was some decency in the man somewhere along the line. On the other hand I have to agree with some of the dreaded David Hurwitz's comments about a lack of truly memorable thematic material & of allot of grand sounding rhetoric & gestures that ultimately seem to go nowhere. On the plus side,he DID draw some of his inspiration from living in Wales,he certainly had a flair for colourful orchestration & atmosphere & his life would probably provide allot of colourful material for a biographer. Also,his son Gwydion Brooke once sent me a very nice letter & a free Lp of his dad's music! If only he could have been a little (ALLOT!) more philosophical!
  Having said all that,I have to say that I haven't heard anything in Holbrooke's output that could possibly compare with the sheer breadth and originality of  Havergal Brian's greatest works. The same goes for Bantock,who was a superb orchestrator & whose best music probably does deserve a place in the late romantic repertory but ultimately seems to lack Brian's timeless vision. Brian's muse,unlike that of Holbrooke or Bantock seems to look to the future,whereas Holbrooke, and the more consistently inspired muse of Bantock, seem to reside very firmly in the Edwardian fin de siecle (god I hope I spelled THAT right!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 20, 2011, 03:43:55 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 20, 2011, 02:32:40 AM
The original emi Lp had a wonderful photograph of Brian on the cover. A very striking cover image.

I still have the LP. Here's a scan I just made. Click to enlarge.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/img609_hbrian89.jpg)


Sarge

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 20, 2011, 03:51:46 AM
@Sarge I still have my copy, too. Thanks for the beautiful scan!

@Cilgwyn Excellent post. Yes, Brian is the simply the greater creative force. The man had an exceptional mental energy. I love several of Bantock's pieces - the Handley CD with the Witch of Atlas, and the Hebridean and Celtic Symphonies is superb -, but they don't surpass Brian at his best. Holbrooke I still have to hear, though I wonder whether it will add much to my already extensive knowledge of late-Romantic composers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 20, 2011, 05:13:09 AM
To be fair,I think Brian and Bantock had different interests & agenda's,and Bantock was undoubtedly superb at what he did. But Brian at his best is a visionary. That's not to say that Bantock lacked vision,it just seems to have been less profound. I don't really like to compare two very different people,but in creative terms he strikes me as a sort of British version of Respighi,with his focus on pictorialism & antiquity. Although,Bantock seems to come across as the more profound of the two. I'm sure you could shared have allot of very interesting discussions with him,while Holbrooke's focus on himself & what he was doing would have soon driven you up the wall.
As to Holbrooke. I think he was very unlucky. He should have been born earlier & probably in Germany,where his flair for self promotion & barn storming ambitions might have met with a little more tolerance. And let's face it,compared to Wagner he was probably quite a nice person! On the other hand,who remembers August von Bungert,another composer with outrageous ambitions who,quite possibly,deserves re-evaluation? In many ways Holbrooke's biggest piece of bad luck (and ALLOT of other people's!) was the first world war & the change in tastes & attitudes that followed.
As to his personal spin on late romanticism. I think his eccentricity and flair for quirky & colourful orchestration and his preoccupation with bizarre subject matter like, for instance the work of Edgar Allan Poe,do give him a more interesting profile than some other forgotten late romantic composers of that colourful era. First rate,professional performances in state of the art digital sound quality of major works like 'Apollo and the Seaman' 'Queen Mab' & 'The Bells' should finally allow us to form a clearer picture of Holbrooke' true worth. I gather the late lamented Vernon Handley expressed interest. He certainly did wonders for Bantock!
Nevertheless, in my humble opinion,works like the 'Gothic Symphony','The Tiger's,'Wine of Summer',what little I've heard of 'Faust',the 'Sinfonia Tragica' & the 'tenth symphony',to name just a few, leave the former standing on so many different levels. As a matter of fact this reminds me a little of the comparisons that have been made between Bantock and Richard Strauss. Unfair yes,in certain ways. When you get to know Bantock's muse better he certainly has a distinct 'Bantockian' (for want of a better word) profile & I think you could even argue that,at best,his orchestration is more subtle or even more refined and tasteful. What he does lack,in my opinion,is Strauss's sheer breadth of range & ultimately his psychological penetration. Although,again,to be fair to Bantock ,I'm just comparing two very different people.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 20, 2011, 05:16:10 AM
By the way,the above scan has provided me with a very nice desktop. (The front cover of the old Lyrita of Symphonies 6 & 16 would be very nice too,hint! hint!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 20, 2011, 06:06:18 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 20, 2011, 05:16:10 AM
By the way,the above scan has provided me with a very nice desktop. (The front cover of the old Lyrita of Symphonies 6 & 16 would be very nice too,hint! hint!)

Unfortunately I don't have the Lyrita record. I have the American made LP on HNH Records. This probably isn't the cover your're looking for but I scanned it anyway in case anyone is interested in seeing it.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/hbrian616img611.jpg)


Sarge


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on April 20, 2011, 06:29:08 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 20, 2011, 03:33:26 AM
On the other hand I have to agree with some of the dreaded David Hurwitz's comments about a lack of truly memorable thematic material & of allot of grand sounding rhetoric & gestures that ultimately seem to go nowhere.

Not quite as bad as William Wallace, though :)

Thanks for this post, you know far more about thow the musical scene of that time connected together than I.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 20, 2011, 06:43:02 AM
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqIOKj!E1sNOO5CRBNjSW6h-fw~~_12.JPG)


It was on eBay very recently... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Symphonies-No-6-16-LYRITA-/320679947912 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Symphonies-No-6-16-LYRITA-/320679947912)...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on April 20, 2011, 07:10:23 AM
Hmm, I am kind of glad that one went for so little (well, for nothing, even - no bids) - I priced an EMI vinyl (I think the one Sarge linked with the profile photo) at £5 in a charity store I work at without considering that even though (at the time) it was reissued in that EMI twofer, it may have had collectable value. It sold within a day or two making me a little worried I didn't price it high enough.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 20, 2011, 07:54:02 AM
I'd forgotten those flowers!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 20, 2011, 08:22:19 AM
My comments about 'allot of grand sounding rhetoric & gestures that ultimately seem to go nowhere' could almost apply to David Hurwitz! Poor old Holbrooke.
Another extremely talented egotist I didn't mention has to be Cyril Scott.
I was wondering about that version of the Lyrita recording. I remember looking at some photos of long deleted Lp recordings on Amazon. Some of the most memorable being some very cheesy old opera sets of a very busty looking Anneliese Rothenberger. (I must have owned the 'cleaned up' versions). 'hnh records'? It looks a bit like a close up shot of a home made quilt. For some reason I rather liked the Lyrita design. The angular coloured mosaic seemed to fit in with the music in some wierd kind of way. The strange elliptical blocks of sound and the way they seemed to slowly and purposefully build up. I used to listen to the music with it propped up in front of me! I was actually disappointed when they didn't use it for the reissue!!!
  Worst 'design' for a Brian Lp could be the Aries cover photo for their state of someone else's art Lp of Brian's third symphony. Their design department was an absolute disgrace. I got my copy from 'Michael G Thomas'. Anyone remember their ads in Gramophone? And I know it's a total waste of time saying this,but I wish Myer Fredman,the LPO & Lyrita could have been able to record that most enigmatic of Brian symphonies.
As to Wiliam Wallace. 'Villons' not too bad & Hyperion should be congratulated for their usual good taste in cover paintings. (I mean the symphonic poems one).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 20, 2011, 08:24:47 AM
I must start an August von Bungert thread! (Incidentally HB mentions him in his journalism). With a name like that it's hard to understand why he isn't up there with the greats!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 20, 2011, 09:11:45 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 20, 2011, 08:22:19 AM'hnh records'? It looks a bit like a close up shot of a home made quilt.

It does look like a quilt but in fact it's a painting by Robert Delaunay, Circular Forms. It's part of the Guggenheim collection. I agree with you: the Lyrita cover seems more appropriate to Brian's style.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 20, 2011, 09:39:27 AM
Oh dear,not a masterpiece I hope?
Actually,the only Havergal Brian Lp (as opposed to cd) I have left in my collection is the record of Brian's songs. In my opinion one of the best & yet most underrated Havergal Brian recordings ever released. I played it so much I practically knew all the songs by heart'

The scene: Me in the bath. Time: late evening:

Me (warbling while soaping myself): 'When Ic-eecles heng by the w-aaaal...'.(etc,etc)
Neighbour (hammering on wall) Shurrup yer tone deaf tosser!

Also,while washing up. Very,very catchy indeed. Classics which should be as admired as those of VW or Gurney.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 20, 2011, 01:43:20 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 20, 2011, 09:39:27 AM
Actually,the only Havergal Brian Lp (as opposed to cd) I have left in my collection is the record of Brian's songs. In my opinion one of the best & yet most underrated Havergal Brian recordings ever released. I played it so much I practically knew all the songs by heart'

The scene: Me in the bath. Time: late evening:

Me (warbling while soaping myself): 'When Ic-eecles heng by the w-aaaal...'.(etc,etc)
Neighbour (hammering on wall) Shurrup yer tone deaf tosser!

Also,while washing up. Very,very catchy indeed. Classics which should be as admired as those of VW or Gurney.


I love the songs too. They are often very haunting, with wonderful melodic and harmonic inventions. Brian Rayner Cook and Roger Vignoles do an excellent job. And it's the same with me - I bellowed 'My soul, be strong!' in many difficult situations. Well, I didn't, but 'The Soul of Steel' is terrific, with that typically Brianic bass line. I also like 'Renunciation', which starts:


I glimpse the road that stretches white, austere,
Before you, but I cannot follow there;
Your feet are shod, your heart is full of cheer,
My heart is empty and my feet are bare.


After 'bare' there is a very characteristic hint of a (funeral) march.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 20, 2011, 03:16:53 PM
I downloaded mine from Amazon,but I am ashamed to say I downloaded the booklet from Toccata,which is a bit crafty I know. If I could get to the other end of my back room I would have a look at the old Lp. I seem to remember there was an odd cartoon or drawing on the front. As to ye olde cassettes,I still use them a bit. Particularly for spoken word cassettes,but cd's are obviously to be preferred,unless you can't live without side breaks. As to the songs. I'm not actually that keen on english song myself and Havergal Brian's are the only one's I've ever really enjoyed. I haven't got the booklet or poems to hand & the download is still on an external drive & I have only just started to transfer music from it onto cd-r's. But I can 'hear' Cooke's voice singing them in my head. I must do that cd-r next. Again with Brian,it's the sheer range of the songs. Some of them are quite jolly,even jaunty & full of really good hummable tunes. They should be popular! And the 'Defiled Sanctuary' makes a truly dramatic ending. You'll be apalled to know I actually used to sing that. Not very well I can assure you,although I did,unfortunately, pass my audition for the school choir (I didn't go!) A record I played over and over and over again.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 20, 2011, 03:26:21 PM
Yes, the range of the songs is wide. 'Care-charmer Sleep' with its last line 'and never wake to feel the day's disdain' struck a chord with me when I was in my twenties. I took up singing lessons then, too. I am a baritone, like Cook. Not as good, mind you! Singing wasn't and isn't my vocation!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 20, 2011, 07:45:56 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 19, 2011, 11:48:13 PMMI, if you are revisiting your recordings, the performances of the Violin Concerto, and symphonies 11 (first movement too fast, though), 12, 15, 17, 20, 25, 32 are good. I know your budget won't be limitless, but two CDs are essential in any Brian collection - the Lyrita with 6 & 16 and the new Dutton with symphonies 10 & 30, the Concerto for Orchestra and English Suite No. 3...

Johan, thanks for the recommendations. I do intend on buying more Brian recordings soon. I just bought the two Naxos re-releases with Leaper, which I didn't own, so it will be great to hear these works.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 21, 2011, 04:15:25 AM
I really WOULD recommend the cd of his songs. Just because it's not one of the more high profile releases,hardly anyone ever mentions it (except here)and it doesn't have the glamour of a symphony orchestra doesn't mean it isn't much good or it's not as interesting or exciting. Personally,I would quite CATEGORICALLY place it up there with the Dutton cd of sym 10 (etc),the Lyrita cd & the emi recordings as one of the best and most exciting Brian recordings ever released (commercially). As a teenager I was bored stiff by song but this one made regular returns to my Van der Molen Stereo record player. It is marvellous,a real ear opener!
As to my singing. I'm better at lighter stuff,like Gilbert & Sullivan,although 'whole lotta Rosie's' quite good fun in the bath. Brian Rayner Cooke is the 'real deal' though. (I wish I'd stuck at my choir sessions now).
I notice you emphasise the more serious songs JZH. I suppose they're the main meat. Nevertheless,I do feel the lighter side of Brian is not to be sniffed at & might appeal to some who are turned off by his more weighty stuff. I always find it astonishing that Brian was working on something like 'The Tigers' at around the same time as the 'Gothic'. Two huge,astonishingly ambitious works that are as different as the sun and moon (although there are connections eg 'Gargoyles' for example) and all from the same mind. Most of us have enough trouble working on one thing at a time,let alone on that vast scale.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 21, 2011, 04:20:30 AM
Oh, but I DO like the lighter songs, too! 'Lady Ellayne', for example, or 'Love is a merry game' (if that's the title). That the weightier and darker songs should strike me more is only natural (for me), but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the lighter Brian. I do. Especially as Brian, even when he is in his 'light' mood, still manages to create something substantial.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 24, 2011, 03:39:51 AM
Can't have the Havergal Brian thread slipping this far down the Forum! At least not for too long.
I have now located my original Auracle Records LP of Brian's songs. Not exactly mint, (the sleeve)but intact,it includes the original song sheet. Also,the cartoon on the front cover,which I remembered from the original LP,is 'Adrian Potter' & the cartoon is by Frank Furnivall. Yet so far I am unable to find anything in the accompanying notes to explain who Adrian Potter is?! Can anyone enlighten me?
I note some other old favourites:

Take,O take those lips away
The Message
Love is a Merry Game
Piping down the Valleys Wild
The Chimney Sweeper

But then,aren't they all? A classic! According to the notes,Brian wrote around 65 songs,in all,many of which are lost. A number of them were sung by leading singers of the day,including John Coates and the still popular & indeed legendary John McCormack (If only he'd recorded some,even just one!) I wonder exactly how many extant songs remain unrecorded. I only wish I had a record label,I'd be gagging to record them!
I seem to remember reading that Brian's landlord,at the time,'CM Masterman' the author of one of the Songs ('The Soul of Steel')represented here let him live in his accomodation rent free because of his musical abilities. I only wish most of the landlord's I have come across had such good taste.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2011, 03:50:45 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 24, 2011, 03:39:51 AM
Can't have the Havergal Brian thread slipping this far down the Forum! At least not for too long.
I have now located my original Auracle Records LP of Brian's songs. Not exactly mint, (the sleeve)but intact,it includes the original song sheet. Also,the cartoon on the front cover,which I remembered from the original LP,is 'Adrian Potter' & the cartoon is by Frank Furnivall. Yet so far I am unable to find anything in the accompanying notes to explain who Adrian Potter is?! Can anyone enlighten me?
I note some other old favourites:

Take,O take those lips away
The Message
Love is a Merry Game
Piping down the Valleys Wild
The Chimney Sweeper

But then,aren't they all? A classic! According to the notes,Brian wrote around 65 songs,in all,many of which are lost. A number of them were sung by leading singers of the day,including John Coates and the still popular & indeed legendary John McCormack (If only he'd recorded some,even just one!) I wonder exactly how many extant songs remain unrecorded. I only wish I had a record label,I'd be gagging to record them!
I seem to remember reading that Brian's landlord,at the time,'CM Masterman' the author of one of the Songs ('The Soul of Steel')represented here let him live in his accomodation rent free because of his musical abilities. I only wish most of the landlord's I have come across had such good taste.


This thread is already bigger than Beethoven's (which is too much honour for HB, however much I love and admire him!), so - don't be disheartened by a momentary interruption of proceedings here... I don't know who 'Adrian Potter' is, either. Frank Furnivall, on the other hand (as you will know), was Brian's son-in-law, married to his daughter Jean.


I think I'm going to download the songs (possible at Toccata Classics). I simply like them too much, to go without them!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 24, 2011, 04:45:11 AM
I wasn't being all that serious,actually. I'm sure things will 'pick up' quite a bit when the 'Gothic' gets performed at the Proms! (Also,Toccata Vol 2). Ludwig's admirer's needn't feel too downhearted. He's just as interesting,it's just that there have been so many umpteen recording cycles & books people eventually run out of things to say. (For example,what can you say about Beethoven's Fifth that hasn't been said a million times before?) Although you could say the same about Brian's Gothic,in some respects! I mean 'Mind boggling','bigger than Mahler's eighth',or if you don't like him,'over rated','overlong'. Who hasn't come out with any of those observations before? And there is so much by Brian that hasn't been recorded or even performed. And his career and belated discovery? It's the stuff of movies!
I must say the 'Legend for Violin & Piano' rounds off the Toccata cd very nicely indeed!


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2011, 05:15:04 AM
 Many years ago I wrote down some thoughts about Brian for personal use. They are fragmentary, and I don't even subscribe to everything in them anymore. But they might be of interest to some of my fellow GMG Brianites:

"Quality control is not my business. I do not, in the following, answer the question of Brian's "masterpieces". What I will try to do instead is to set out what sort of an artist I think Brian is. In what kind of country does his genius hold sway, and what are its borders? If we know what he is and can, and what he doesn't want to be and do, we won't criticize him for not being Dmitri Vaughan Sibelius.

Brian is divided. He reacts and he constructs. He is a rational builder and an emotional player. His art is torn between structure, understood as controlled inevitability, and process, unpredictable freedom. His stated aim of "Balance of Form" shows great self-knowledge. In this dichotomy resides Brian's power and weakness. The tension between structuring form and fracturing process, circle and line, stone and plant, Symphony and Drama, cathedral and theatre, music and language, eternity and time, whole and part, there is the heart of the Brian phenomenon. Its throb is in everything he wrote. Brian can give you a breathless report, lasting an hour, idea piled upon idea, or a concentrated epic, taking a mere minute. Because these two principles can swap their temporal character. The succes of a work depends on their fruitful cooperation. Unity in Brian is dialogical. Brian is as much a monumental Bruckner as he is a mercurial Mahler, within a piece. The ratio of one to the other decides the character.

We can speculate about its origin.

We might even see a socio-political analogue to this pair: birth and merit. The story of Brian's life is that of a violently energetic man, trying to escape a background that crippled his chances in advance. There is something barbaric in this indefatigable journey upwards and onwards. Brian sacks the West. He devours it. No one is safe, nothing is safe, not Goethe, not Latin, not Luther. Here is Brian's link to James Joyce and Igor Stravinsky, hubristic, voracious outsiders.

In his obsessive funeral marches he, the victim, becomes the executioner, embodying the power that threatens to crush him and his ambition. (I, for one, am not certain Das Siegeslied is the great anti-totalitarian statement. Doesn't Wine of Summer, perhaps, point to contrition in its rarefied Englishness?).

The Gothic is the greatest testament to Brian's hopes for himself. That is why it takes on the whole Western tradition and ends in openness and expectancy.

Part One's Allegro and Lento are rather static, circular. The first movement  jumps from heroic striving to lyrical self-absorption, while the second movement is an unforgettable study in incremental grandeur. There is no gain, no breakthrough. Brian is staking out a giant terrain.

But the Vivace is the Gothic's axis mundi, marrying structure and process in unforgettable perfection, it is the giant gate, on whose hinges the whole symphony (and the rest of Brian's oeuvre) flies open, disclosing the vista of the Te Deum in all its achieved informality, where a progression similar to that of Part One is repeated on a higher level, but now as an ongoing quest, with the text almost functioning as the connecting pretext for some of the freest music Brian ever composed. (And might this, by the way, at last explain the vexed question of why the Gothic travels from D minor to E major? Does this shift not signify Brian's ultimate favouring of process over structure, growth over order, as a symbol of liberation?)"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 24, 2011, 09:19:49 AM
I'm going to have to mentally 'digest' you're post before even attempting a reply. You're vocabularly is as granitic as Brian's. And I mean that in a really good way. I particularly like you're analysis of the 'Vivace' as a kind of 'giant gate'. The colossal storm that follows is like passing through the heart of some huge star/ black hole. Somehow,you pass through on you're journey intact,but nothing is ever quite the same again. There's no going back! (But I'm not as good at analogies as you).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2011, 09:30:07 AM
The text is very compact and not afraid of 'hard' words, I know... I remember wanting to express my feelings/ideas about Brian as succinctly as possible. If I ever write an essay about him, I'll travel a less 'granitic' road!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 24, 2011, 09:59:19 AM
Nothing wrong with a good bit of granite! It's writing like this that helped me get into Brian at the beginning. I am of course referring to the books of Malcolm Macdonald,which really helped to open up the vast 'hinterland' (as it has been described) of Brian's ouevre.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 04:10:33 AM
Just to report my Toccata cd of Brian's songs arrived today via a seller on Amazon .I have the download on an external drive somewhere,but 'hidden away' & decided I couldn't resist the 'shiny thing'. Anyway,it is as wonderful as I remembered it,confirming my belief that this is one of the greatest of all Havergal Brian recordings. Up there with the best! The Legend for Violin & Piano rounds of it's cd incarnation very nicely indeed. If only he'd written more music for chamber & instrumental combinations. Still Brian knew what suited him best!
  With respect to the burgeoning thread (see elsewhere) about Brian's rival in the neglected maverick category,Charles Koechlin I have now dug out my 2cd set of Zinman's 'Jungle Book Cycle. But it's Brian at the moment! (Millie Jackson rounded off last night. I'm an eclectic too!!!).
Here's to Toccata's Orchestral Works Vol 2!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2011, 04:26:07 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 04:10:33 AM
Just to report my Toccata cd of Brian's songs arrived today via a seller on Amazon .I have the download on an external drive somewhere,but 'hidden away' & decided I couldn't resist the 'shiny thing'. Anyway,it is as wonderful as I remembered it,confirming my belief that this is one of the greatest of all Havergal Brian recordings. Up there with the best! The Legend for Violin & Piano rounds of it's cd incarnation very nicely indeed. If only he'd written more music for chamber & instrumental combinations. Still Brian knew what suited him best!
  With respect to the burgeoning thread (see elsewhere) about Brian's rival in the neglected maverick category,Charles Koechlin I have now dug out my 2cd set of Zinman's 'Jungle Book Cycle. But it's Brian at the moment! (Millie Jackson rounded off last night. I'm an eclectic too!!!).
Here's to Toccata's Orchestral Works Vol 2!


I'm certain to listen to Koechlin. But HB will not be easily unseated. I think a favourite composer isn't your favourite for nothing - he appeals to something essential in you.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2011, 04:33:53 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2011, 04:26:07 AM
I'm certain to listen to Koechlin [....]

At the risk of aggrandizing a tangent ; ) . . . the recent uptick in Koechlin interest has flagged for me a need to actually listen to a disc or three which I've got somewhere here.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 05:04:27 AM
He's certainly intriguing,but I don't see you swapping Koechlin for Brian any time yet! He has some relevance here,possibly,because he was an outsider & a bit of a maverick,like Langgaard. I will certainly dig out some of the cd's of Koechlin,I own......when I've finished with Brian's songs!
You often hear a critic rounding off a review of a cd of neglected music say 'only in this country'. Which of course,as Koechlin,Schmitt or Tournemire might have pointed out themselves,isn't really true. As far as I can make out Britain isn't exactly the only country with a long list of neglected composers. In fact,judging by the sterling work done by some of our small record labels & societies Britain is a bit better than some. Although,I could be wrong! France in particular seems to promote a couple of composers at the expense of so many fine ones. Ropartz,Magnard,Schmitt,Koechlin & Tournemire (his organ music aside) have all suffered. I notice that French composers who favour symphonies seem to have had a particularly hard time!
Tournemire's eight make regular visits to my cd player. With his vast list of ambitious, unperformed & colossal works he strikes me as another contender for a sort of French 'Havergal Brian' (Although,they are of course two very different composers). His Sixth and Seventh symphonies are on a mammoth scale & Tournemire's music often has a similarly dark,'gothic' quality about it. His symphonies,at least in my opinion,are in desperate need of really first class performances and recordings.
The Ropartz and Magnard cycles are magnificent. When I first received the Timpani cd's of the Ropartz symphonies I could hardly believe that (bar the 3rd) they hadn't been recorded before. Astonishing!
America and Italy are even worse.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2011, 05:09:11 AM
A very good friend of mine played some Tournemire to me 20 years ago, an organ piece. I never forgot it. I have a few symphonies of his, but haven't come round yet to listening to them. I find I have to make mental space for new composers and must really feel an urge to listen to them. Otherwise I won't be receptive enough to be able to hear them at all.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2011, 05:26:05 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2011, 05:09:11 AM
Tournemire...I have a few symphonies of his, but haven't come round yet to listening to them. I find I have to make mental space for new composers and must really feel an urge to listen to them.

No rush, Johan, but I think you will like him. He was a complete unknown to me until just a few months ago when Lethe posted intriguing comments on the listening thread. I have all the symphonies now (save the Sixth and Seventh) and love them all. The end of the first movement of the First came as quite a shock. It's as though Bruckner were French and his obsessive compulsive need for repetition finally sends him over the edge: makes him mentally crack  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 05:29:55 AM
I completely agree with you. It's like with Bax. I remember buying the wonderful Lyrita Lp of Boult conducting 'Tintagel' (etc) & some drunken friend of my father asking me to put it on.which I did. I then had to sit there & listening to 'Tintagel' & this man telling me how wonderful Bax was. After that the Bax stayed in the box,until a couple of years later I put it on & was hooked. I rapidly bought all the Bax Thomson Lp's,and latterly,cd's in succession. Suddenly I had the urge! Try as hard as he might he couldn't 'force me'.
  Incidentally,I've been thinking of putting up a Tournemire avatar,so the man can 'speak for himself',as it were.  No need for me to drone on about the poor chap & put people off!!! He'll just 'be there' anyway,won't he?

PS: Thank you for that message. Very tempting. I shall certainly investigate,but must admit to a near pathological loathing of public transport & any kind of travel. Sad.I know.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2011, 05:33:00 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2011, 05:26:05 AM
No rush, Johan, but I think you will like him. He was a complete unknown to me until just a few months ago when Lethe posted intriguing comments on the listening thread. I have all the symphonies now (save the Seventh) and love them all. The end of the First came as quite a shock. It's as though Bruckner were French and his obsessive compulsive need for repetition finally sends him over the edge: makes him mentally crack  :D


'No rush, Johan', he says. And then he waves that giant bait around.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2011, 05:34:09 AM
(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2011, 05:36:15 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2011, 05:33:00 AM

'No rush, Johan', he says. And then he waves that giant bait around.  :D

A correction: it should read: "the end of the first movement."

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2011, 05:37:25 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2011, 05:36:15 AM
A correction: it should read: "the end of the first movement."

That doesn't make the bait any smaller.


I am going to listen to that First NOW.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 05:42:41 AM
The massive Sixth symphony with it's choirs & soloist is an interesting contrast to the 'Gothic' if you like huge,neglected symphonies by neglected composers. The Auvidis Valois recording is very well performed. The way the organ whacks in suddenly in the second movement is a to quote Frank Carson,'a bit of a cracker'. Symphony No 7 is downright wacky to say the least. After a couple of listens it does all seem to hang together,somehow or other. 'Gothic'? Definately! But NOT as Brian knew it! (As I type this I've got Rayner Cooke singing the last line of 'The Defiled Sanctuary' ringing in my ear ('as I lay me down amongst the swine'!!!)
Make sure you've got a genuine urge first,though and a large thermos flask of coffee,in case you nod off!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2011, 05:44:04 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 05:42:41 AM
The massive Sixth symphony with it's choirs & soloist is an interesting contrast to the 'Gothic' if you like huge,neglected symphonies by neglected composers. The Auvidis Valois recording is very well performed. The way the organ whacks in suddenly in the second movement is a to quote Frank Carson,'a bit of a cracker'. Symphony No 7 is downright wacky to say the least. After a couple of listens it does all seem to hang together,somehow or other. 'Gothic'? Definately! But NOT as Brian knew it! (As I type this I've got Rayner Cooke singing the last line of 'The Defiled Sanctuary' ringing in my ear ('as I lay me down amongst the swine'!!!)
Make sure you've got a genuine urge first,though and a large thermos flask of coffee,in case you nod off!


I own symphonies 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 8. And the urge is there - the First comes first!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 05:46:49 AM
I WILL play the Koechlin.........when I get the URGE to switch off the cd of Brian songs!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2011, 05:47:45 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 05:46:49 AM
I WILL play the Koechlin.........when I get the URGE to switch off the cd of Brian songs!


Poor Koechlin. That will NEVER happen.  ;)


And now - Tournemire!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 05:50:51 AM
He's going to have to wait! It's on repeat.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2011, 06:28:15 AM
OT (but the Old Man won't mind, being an organist and symphonist himself) - I like the Tournemire a lot! The third movement, Largo, is beautiful. There is a drooping motif there - and also in other movements - which is very similar to one in Magnard's Third and Fourth symphonies (iirc). And Tournemre DOES remind me of Magnard, which is a very good thing indeed!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 07:26:10 AM
Definately,a yes then?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2011, 07:29:44 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 07:26:10 AM
Definately,a yes then?


Yes. Listened several times already. I really like it. And that 'drooping motif' is central, a very Franckian device for unifying the symphony.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 07:48:21 AM
I'm also very keen on his 'Fourth',which tends to get overlooked in all the lengthy debates about Charles Tournemire symphonies frequenting the internet (only joking!). There are some wonderfully evocative effects that confirm my opinion that Tournemire really was a dab hand with the old orchestra. I can only dream of the way this would sound if I owned Chandos! (The 'Gothic' and 'The Tiger's would have been in the bag ages ago).
A French Havergal Brian? Not quite,but I  think Brian and Tournemire  have a little  more in common than Brian and Koechlin.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2011, 07:49:12 AM
Or for that matter,Brian and Wise!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2011, 04:18:24 AM
Ticket sales for the Proms 2011 started a few hours ago. RAH Website-current queue numbers: 1830 at the moment. I am glad I found my tickets already elsewhere a few weeks ago, though more expensive...


http://www.getmein.com/tickets/prom-4-brian-the-gothic-symphony-tickets/london-202377.html (http://www.getmein.com/tickets/prom-4-brian-the-gothic-symphony-tickets/london-202377.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on May 07, 2011, 05:14:32 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2011, 04:18:24 AM
Ticket sales for the Proms 2011 started a few hours ago. RAH Website-current queue numbers: 1830 at the moment. I am glad I found my tickets already elsewhere a few weeks ago, though more expensive...


http://www.getmein.com/tickets/prom-4-brian-the-gothic-symphony-tickets/london-202377.html (http://www.getmein.com/tickets/prom-4-brian-the-gothic-symphony-tickets/london-202377.html)

Thank you for your PM about that the other day, Johan, I simply couldn't justify those prices, not with my current finances! So I waited till today.

Logged on at 8.40

on the dot of 9.00 told the site was busy and that eventually I would be put in a queue

at 9.20 was put in the queue at number 4800-ish

finally got to 0, four and a half hours later

try and try to book

keep getting error messages

call their number, get told, effectively, to get lost and get off the line

because:

they are sold out

It has taken 5 hours of my day, and this is the result.

I am mightily annoyed. This was, really, the only concert I care about seeing in the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2011, 05:19:46 AM
Luke! I am so sorry to read that. I'm hardly rich myself, but I'm fortunate (?!) in turning 50 in a month's time and getting the ticket as a present from one friend and the hotel stay from another. I was afraid this would happen - that the real Brian lovers would not get in. This is very very bad news.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on May 07, 2011, 05:38:53 AM
Where on earth did the demand come from? How did it sell out? Is it a crowd of gawkers who want to hear the "Guinness record music"? I simply don't understand why the first concert to sell out would be such obscure, obtuse music...

Luke, if you don't mind standing, I just managed to buy a "Weekend Promming Pass" to Proms 1-4, in the arena, for 17.50. Allegedly this means I've got a place for the Gothic, though I've never prommed before so the reality is I have no clue what will happen.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2011, 05:41:53 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 07, 2011, 05:38:53 AM
Where on earth did the demand come from? How did it sell out? Is it a crowd of gawkers who want to hear the "Guinness record music"? I simply don't understand why the first concert to sell out would be such obscure, obtuse music...

Luke, if you don't mind standing, I just managed to buy a "Weekend Promming Pass" to Proms 1-4, in the arena, for 17.50. Allegedly this means I've got a place for the Gothic, though I've never prommed before so the reality is I have no clue what will happen.


Mahler 8 was sold out in an hour last year, too. It's the 'blockbuster' quality, I'm afraid, that's drawing the crowds. I hope Luke will take you up on your very generous offer...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on May 07, 2011, 05:47:18 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2011, 05:41:53 AM

Mahler 8 was sold in an hour last year, too. It's the 'blockbuster' quality, I'm afraid, that's drawing the crowds. I hope Luke will take you up on your very generous offer...

Oops, sorry, I'm keeping my pass! I meant that Luke can try and get the identical article. That said, feeling slightly guilty about my phrasing now, so if there's no other way to access the concert, I'd give way to a confirmed Brianite, having never heard the music at all myself
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2011, 05:49:11 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 07, 2011, 05:47:18 AM
Oops, sorry, I'm keeping my pass! I meant that Luke can try and get the identical article. That said, feeling slightly guilty about my phrasing now, so if there's no other way to access the concert, I'd give way to a confirmed Brianite, having never heard the music at all myself


Poor you and poor Luke... I think Luke is so fed up he won't be accessing that site anytime soon.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 07, 2011, 05:51:01 AM
V bad news about the Gothic - I would have been no 600+ in the queue, but will spare myself a 5 hour wait. I'll console myself with the fact that I did see The Gothic last time round (Ole Schmidt) and try and get tickets for Bax Symphony No 2 (Prom 43). I doubt whether this will be a sell out!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2011, 05:53:37 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 07, 2011, 05:51:01 AM
V bad news about the Gothic - I would have been no 600+ in the queue, but will spare myself a 5 hour wait. I'll console myself with the fact that I did see The Gothic last time round (Ole Schmidt) and try and get tickets for Bax Symphony No 2 (Prom 43). I doubt whether this will be a sell out!


That's bad, Jeffrey.  >:(  Though hardly unexpected. It's a cruel day for Brianites.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on May 07, 2011, 05:55:12 AM
Quote from: J.Z.Poor you and poor Luke... I think Luke is so fed up he won't be accessing that site anytime soon.

No, well, I wasn't going to, but I just checked here and read Brian's useful heads-up, so I've gone back. In the queue again, but it's much shorter now, went straight in at 581. Thanks, fellas, for the commiserations and advice. Let's see about the weekend pass. What confuses me is that I logged on at the very earliest time possible (I mean, to the second, I was sitting there with my fingers poised over the laptop), so I should have been at the front end of the queue, but still somehow entered the queue in the high 4000s. How on earth do these things work?

The other sell-outs are the Verdi Requiem and the Mahler 2 (for some reason the Brian sell-out isn't showing up on the front page). So clearly you are right - it is the blockbuster thing that draws them in.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2011, 05:56:48 AM
Quote from: Luke on May 07, 2011, 05:55:12 AM
No, well, I wasn't going to, but I just checked here and read Brian's useful heads-up, so I've gone back. In the queue again, but it's much shorter now, went straight in at 581. Thanks, fellas, for the commiserations and advice. Let's see about the weekend pass. What confuses me is that I logged on at the very earliest time possible (I mean, to the second, I was sitting there with my fingers poised over the laptop), so I should have been at the front end of the queue, but still somehow entered the queue in the high 4000s. How on earth do these things work?

The other sell-outs are the Verdi Requiem and the Mahler 2 (for some reason the Brian sell-out isn't showing up on the front page). So clearly you are right - it is the blockbuster thing that draws them in.


GOOD LUCK!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on May 07, 2011, 06:11:14 AM
Here's an idle thought: do you suppose the Havergal Brian Society have been allocated a number of tickets which they'll be advertising sooner or later on their site?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on May 07, 2011, 06:17:36 AM
I got to the front of the queue and got the pass Brian mentioned, so now it's just a matter of - what - going to London on the 17th and hoping?

But oddly, on the BBC site, here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/2010/booking/offers.shtml

it says that the pass only includes proms 1-3 (Brian is number 4) and is only 12.50



Scrub that last bit - that's last year's proms, I hadn't noticed that!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on May 07, 2011, 06:23:28 AM
Quote from: Luke on May 07, 2011, 06:17:36 AM
I got to the front of the queue and got the pass Brian mentioned, so now it's just a matter of - what - going to London on the 17th and hoping?

I hope someone with proms experience enlightens us soon, because if we've just spent money on little more than a chance to see the performance, I'll be irritated.  :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2011, 06:35:30 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 07, 2011, 06:11:14 AM
Here's an idle thought: do you suppose the Havergal Brian Society have been allocated a number of tickets which they'll be advertising sooner or later on their site?


No. When I contacted John Grimshaw, Chairman of the HBS, about this - the moment the Gothic performance was official - he said the HBS wouldn't get any preferential treatment. Later I learned the HBS had bought a few tickets from the site I linked to a few posts ago. There are still 21 left, but they often come in twos. And they are expensive...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2011, 06:37:17 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 07, 2011, 06:23:28 AM
I hope someone with proms experience enlightens us soon, because if we've just spent money on little more than a chance to see the performance, I'll be irritated.  :(


Taken from here http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/features/special-offers/ (http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/features/special-offers/):


Beat the queues at the weekend and save money! Promming is an essential part of the character of the BBC Proms. In addition to discounted tickets, the Weekend Promming Pass offers guaranteed access up to 20 minutes before start-time to the Arena or Gallery standing areas for all concerts in the Royal Albert Hall on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays (excluding Proms 12, 73 and 74). Passes can be purchased online, by phone or in person at the Royal Albert Hall Box Office from 9am on Saturday 7 May, and planned online via the Proms Planner from 12 noon on Thursday 14 April. Passes can only be purchased up to 6pm on the day they start (5.30pm on 12 & 19 August and 2 September). Prices vary for each weekend depending on the number of concerts covered - see box below.

Note that Weekend 2 excludes Prom 12 (the second Human Planet Prom), Weekend 3 includes Prom 20 (free 'Horrible Histories' Prom) and Weekend 7 (covering the August Bank Holiday) includes Prom 59. There is no pass covering Proms 73 and 74. Weekend Promming Passes are not valid for concerts at Cadogan Hall.

Passes are non-transferable and signature ID may be requested upon entry. Purchase of a Weekend Promming Pass does not guarantee entry to the Last Night, but tickets may be counted towards the Five-Concert Ballot in conjunction with further Passes or Day Ticket stubs.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on May 07, 2011, 08:07:13 AM
See, even that blurb has ambiguities (for instance, "guaranteed access up to 20 minutes before start-time" - does that mean they open the doors between 1 and 20 minutes before or that we should arrive more than 20 minutes early?) but I am reassured that, if a pass does not guarantee entry to the Last Night, it must guarantee entry to earlier nights. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 07, 2011, 04:03:54 PM
Having played my Boult CD of the Gothic through today I may just go up to the Albert Hall on 17th July early (I'm on holiday then) and join the prommers queue - we shall see. Sacrilegious though this sounds, I wonder if Brian (as he apparently contemplated doing) had completed the Gothic with an orchestral movement, rather than with the epic setting of the Te Deum (magnificent though that is), that it would have had many more performances and that he would be much better known (I know that he couldn't have cared less probably). It strikes me that the quality of invention in those first three orchestral movements is extraordinary.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2011, 10:15:14 PM
At the Brian Centenary Festival in 1976 Sir Charles Groves conducted Part 1 only. As the first three movements are a symphony in themselves, this is a very natural thing to do and hardly sacrilegious. I wish it would happen more regularly!

Hope to spot you in the prommers queue!

Dundonnell, Brian, Luke, Albion, Jeffrey (?) and myself will be present. Who else?...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 08, 2011, 12:11:55 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2011, 10:15:14 PM
At the Brian Centenary Festival in 1976 Sir Charles Groves conducted Part 1 only. As the first three movements are a symphony in themselves, this is a very natural thing to do and hardly sacrilegious. I wish it would happen more regularly!

Hope to spot you in the prommers queue!

Dundonnell, Brian, Luke, Albion, Jeffrey (?) and myself will be present. Who else?...
Not sure if I'll be there but might I suggest anyway that it would be nice for any GMGers to meet up in The Queen's Arms pub in Queen's Gate Mews (very near Albert Hall) after the concert?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 08, 2011, 12:52:52 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 08, 2011, 12:11:55 AM
Not sure if I'll be there but might I suggest anyway that it would be nice for any GMGers to meet up in The Queen's Arms pub in Queen's Gate Mews (very near Albert Hall) after the concert?


Good suggestion. After that shattering experience even I might be in need of a stiff drink...  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 08, 2011, 01:28:40 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 08, 2011, 12:52:52 AM

Good suggestion. After that shattering experience even I might be in need of a stiff drink...  ;D

If I'm there I'l buy you one, with peasure, Johan - although after the overwhelming experience of hearing the Gothic Symphony live, I suspect that you may well need smelling salts to return to consciousness (I'll bring a medical kit with me)  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 08, 2011, 02:00:15 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2011, 10:15:14 PM
Dundonnell, Brian, Luke, Albion, Jeffrey (?) and myself will be present. Who else?...

I'm afraid I won't make it. When the concert was initially announced (unofficially) my chronic condition had improved to the point I thought I could make the trip (and survive two hours sitting in one position). But it's worsened in recent months. I have no way to predict how I'll feel in July. Booking plane tickets, buying the concert tickets....too risky...at least Mrs. Rock doesn't want to risk it (we've already missed concerts, and lost money). It was almost a relief to read how quickly it sold out--at least I have that excuse to somewhat alleviate the pain of missing what would have been undoubtedly a once in a lifetime experience. Life sucks sometimes.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 08, 2011, 03:14:43 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 08, 2011, 01:28:40 AM
If I'm there I'l buy you one, with peasure, Johan - although after the overwhelming experience of hearing the Gothic Symphony live, I suspect that you may well need smelling salts to return to consciousness (I'll bring a medical kit with me)  ;D


What I'll certainly be needing is a stack of tissues - I think my emotions will flood the RAH...  ;)


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 08, 2011, 02:00:15 AM
I'm afraid I won't make it. When the concert was initially announced (unofficially) my chronic condition had improved to the point I thought I could make the trip (and survive two hours sitting in one position). But it's worsened in recent months. I have no way to predict how I'll feel in July. Booking plane tickets, buying the concert tickets....too risky...at least Mrs. Rock doesn't want to risk it (we've already missed concerts, and lost money). It was almost a relief to read how quickly it sold out--at least I have that excuse to somewhat alleviate the pain of missing what would have been undoubtedly a once in a lifetime experience. Life sucks sometimes.


I feared as much. I feel for you, Sarge, and not only for being absent at the concert... Let's hope the 'Gothic' kickstarts another Brian Renaissance, and Part 1, e.g., will be performed more regularly, even outside Britain. Yes, I can dream...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 08, 2011, 10:34:34 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 08, 2011, 02:00:15 AM
I'm afraid I won't make it. When the concert was initially announced (unofficially) my chronic condition had improved to the point I thought I could make the trip (and survive two hours sitting in one position). But it's worsened in recent months. I have no way to predict how I'll feel in July. Booking plane tickets, buying the concert tickets....too risky...at least Mrs. Rock doesn't want to risk it (we've already missed concerts, and lost money). It was almost a relief to read how quickly it sold out--at least I have that excuse to somewhat alleviate the pain of missing what would have been undoubtedly a once in a lifetime experience. Life sucks sometimes.

Sarge

Very sorry to hear this.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on May 08, 2011, 12:19:33 PM
Like others, I logged onto the RAH site shortly after it opened, was informed the "waiting room" was already full and eventually flagged up at about number 4,900.

Needless to say, I didn't get a ticket!

The bloody thing sold out faster than the Led Zeppelin reunion!!

The only good thing that might possibly happen is for The Gothic to become known as a sure-fire sell-out, which may encourage other festivals to perform it. That's happened to Mahler 8 so there's no reason why it shouldn't happen to Brian 1 !
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 08, 2011, 12:21:54 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on May 08, 2011, 12:19:33 PM
Like others, I logged onto the RAH site shortly after it opened, was informed the "waiting room" was already full and eventually flagged up at about number 4,900.

Needless to say, I didn't get a ticket!

The bloody thing sold out faster than the Led Zeppelin reunion!!

The only good thing that might possibly happen is for The Gothic to become known as a sure-fire sell-out, which may encourage other festivals to perform it. That's happened to Mahler 8 so there's no reason why it shouldn't happen to Brian 1 !


Pity!


Let's hope so!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on May 08, 2011, 12:46:07 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on May 08, 2011, 12:19:33 PM

The only good thing that might possibly happen is for The Gothic to become known as a sure-fire sell-out, which may encourage other festivals to perform it. That's happened to Mahler 8 so there's no reason why it shouldn't happen to Brian 1 !

What a fabulous piece of positive thinking - fingers crossed that you are correct.

I imagine that there is a possibility - a small one, but even so - that the BBC may choose to broadcast the concert on BBC 4 television as well. That would be one to record!

To close a few circles - when I was young, and a member of that most Brianic of orchestras the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra (of blessed repute), Mr Brabbins came to conduct us in John Woolrich's The Barber's Timepiece and Giya Kancheli's fabulous Vom Winde beweint - the UK premiere. (Afterwards he became principal guest conductor or something). Brabbins admitted during rehearsal that he'd never heard a recording of the Kancheli - but I, an 18 year old in the cello section, had, in fact, and lent him my much-loved CD (the ECM one with the Schnitkke, played by Kim Kashkashian). I don't think I ever got it back (thankfully the Bashmet recordings with which I replaced both pieces are even better!) - he's a busy man, of course. But still, if he's reading this, perhaps he could bring it along on the 17th of July and fling it out in the auditorium in my general direction  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 08, 2011, 12:55:20 PM
Haha!


By the way - Martyn Brabbins has conducted several pieces by John Pickard. Both have connections with the brass band world, and John Pickard is a Brian enthusiast I corresponded with in the 1980s, when he studied with Louis Andriessen in The Hague. I met him in Birmingham in 1987, at an amateur performance of Brian's Third Symphony, where he helped out with the percussion... Just to tie up some other loose ends.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 08, 2011, 01:22:33 PM
Having spoken to my brother about the 17th July I reckon that we'll attempt to prom at the Gothic Symphony. Having walked the 300 miles of the Pennine Way together many years ago I reckon that we can attempt a similar feat of epic endurance.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 08, 2011, 01:24:11 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 08, 2011, 01:22:33 PM
Having spoken to my brother about the 17th July I reckon that we'll attempt to prom at the Gothic Symphony. Having walked the 300 miles of the Pennine Way together many years ago I reckon that we can attempt a similar feat of epic endurance.


Excellent! And when the going = standing still gets tough, just lean on your brother.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 08, 2011, 01:27:29 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 08, 2011, 01:24:11 PM

Excellent! And when the going = standing still gets tough, just lean on your brother.  ;D

Excellent advice - but could be the other way round  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on May 09, 2011, 02:43:31 AM
All,

I was a regular-ish Proms season-ticket holder in the 80s and 90s, but had limited experience of actually queueing for big events.  Does anyone have a recommendation as to what time on July 17th (or July 16th plus sleeping-bag) one should aim to join the queue to be sure of an arena spot?  (Sorry if this has already been asked - looked back a page or two and couldn't see it.)

Thanks,
DF
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 09, 2011, 07:24:48 AM
The Guardian newspaper editorial today is,wait for it............"In Praise of Havergal Brian"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 09, 2011, 07:26:35 AM
87,000 tickets sold in the first 12 hours and it's not worth putting on tv!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 09, 2011, 07:29:06 AM
Read the last three lines. The BBC need their heads examined!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 07:36:34 AM
Thanks, cilgwyn!


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/09/in-praise-of-havergal-brian?INTCMP=SRCH (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/09/in-praise-of-havergal-brian?INTCMP=SRCH)


:o :)


Long live Brian!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 07:40:15 AM
Quote from: DaveF on May 09, 2011, 02:43:31 AM
All,

I was a regular-ish Proms season-ticket holder in the 80s and 90s, but had limited experience of actually queueing for big events.  Does anyone have a recommendation as to what time on July 17th (or July 16th plus sleeping-bag) one should aim to join the queue to be sure of an arena spot?  (Sorry if this has already been asked - looked back a page or two and couldn't see it.)

Thanks,
DF


Try getting a Promming Ticket, if they're still there. Or save up quickly for some tickets here (and you may add 30- 40 pounds in handling fees and delivery costs...)


http://www.getmein.com/tickets/prom-4-brian-the-gothic-symphony-tickets/london-202377.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 09, 2011, 08:25:11 AM
The number of 'comments' left on the Guardian site have grown even since I last looked. Some negative ones,but that's a healthy sign. But not too many! I see yours there allready. I think what you say is true. The first time I heard it I just wallowed in the sounds. The second time it seemed almost like an amorphous mass & I remember being incredibly intrigued a little disappointed. Then after a few more listens I began to map the colossal edifice out in my head. After a couple of weeks of listening I could practically 'sing' it all the way through (I think it is sometimes known as 'mouth music'!). Vast and incredibly complex it may be,but,strangely enough, it's also,in it's own way, one of the most tuneful pieces of music I have ever heard!
  As to the concert itself. I honestly would go,but for reasons of health combined with the issues I mentioned in my 'message' I'm afraid this is unlikely to happen. So I will probably be kicking myself for a very long time. In  fact,I don't wish to appear morbid,but the inscription on my grave my grave may very well read:

           " The Fool missed the Gothic!"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 09:13:05 AM
Mine could well read: 'The Fool died at the Gothic'! Paul Rapoport, a Brian expert, wrote on Facebook that the Gothic was the only piece during which he all but fainted...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on May 09, 2011, 09:18:53 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 09:13:05 AM
Mine could well read: 'The Fool died at the Gothic'! Paul Rapoport, a Brian expert, wrote on Facebook that the Gothic was the only piece during which he all but fainted...

There is a fine line between fainting and dozing off.   ;D 
(Sorry, couldn't help myself)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 09:22:45 AM
Haha!

There are a few passages that could wake the dead, so I think anyone's sleep will be fitful at best...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 09, 2011, 09:59:31 AM
Mind you,a Prom performance of the 'Gothic' might be a good venue to (if you'll pardon the expression JZH) to 'pop my clogs. Preferably during the 'Te Deum'. With all the crowd & the volume of all those massed performances I doubt if my demise would spoil the fun.
Funnily enough,that last observation reminded me. I seem to remember that there was a 'blooper' on one of those old performances of the 'Gothic'. I can't remember whether it was the Boult or Schmidt performance,but there was a noise like a faint 'thud' (?) in one place during the performance. I remember reading somewhere that it was the sound of a choirboy fainting. Is this true or just the Brian equivalent of an 'urban legend'? There definately was a noise at one point. It could have been something faling,but it could get hot in a crowd of people like that.
I remember being at a performance of Rossini's 'La Cerentola' many years ago. Very enjoyable it was too,even if I'm not especially 'into' Rossini. At one point one of the soloists fainted & the audience watched with great amusement as he was dragged off the stage,head first,from behind the curtain,still unconscious!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 10:04:04 AM
Yes, you're right. It's in the Schmidt 'Gothic', during the Te deum laudamus, at a point just before 'Christe, Christe'. If I remember correctly... No, it's later, before the coda. After a descending euphonium (?)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on May 09, 2011, 10:33:09 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 07:40:15 AM

Try getting a Promming Ticket, if they're still there.

They are, thank you, and I was surprised by the ease of getting one.  Now I can go to the longest opera as well!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 10:36:26 AM
Quote from: DaveF on May 09, 2011, 10:33:09 AM
They are, thank you, and I was surprised by the ease of getting one.  Now I can go to the longest opera as well!


Excellent! Look here for more information:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/features/special-offers/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 09, 2011, 11:16:49 AM
Thank you.The Schmidt! That's it. I remember 'hearing'  it when I heard the Boult performance. It wore after a while though. He certainly made his 'mark' whoever he was. I wonder if he will be digitally removed when or if the Schmidt performance is ever released (I reckon it will,eventually). I would complain if it was me. In fact every time I put the cd on I'd be teling people,'Did you hear that noise then? That's me fainting!' On the other hand,maybe it would be better to keep quiet about it.
I hope someone helped him up!
Anythings better than being identified by your cough.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 11:23:03 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 09, 2011, 11:16:49 AM
Thank you.The Schmidt! That's it. I remember 'hearing'  it when I heard the Boult performance. It wore after a while though. He certainly made his 'mark' whoever he was. I wonder if he will be digitally removed when or if the Schmidt performance is ever released (I reckon it will,eventually). I would complain if it was me. In fact every time I put the cd on I'd be teling people,'Did you hear that noise then? That's me fainting!' On the other hand,maybe it would be better to keep quiet about it.
I hope someone helped him up!
Anythings better than being identified by your cough.


;D  On 17 July I could shout something during one of the silent passages. Of course, I would be lynched or forcibly removed. But I would have made my mark...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 09, 2011, 12:33:37 PM
A shouts better than a cough,anythings better than a cough. Everyone should have to sign an agreement at the door that they won't cough until the applause begins at the end. That should drown them out & everyone else for that matter.
Or what about a very loud sneeze? 'ASH-HOOOOOOOOOOOO!?'
Even better,just yell 'ENCORE!' right at the end. Even if you don't get one,I'm sure there are plenty of people who would agree with you.......until they have to listen to you're yell on the cd recording!
I have to say,I've heard loads of coughing on live concert recordings over the years,but never a sneeze (or even a belch). I wonder why? Unless you have some chronic condition it must be a heck of allot easier to suppress a cough than a sneeze.
On the other hand a concert pianist with hiccups could be quite funny.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 09, 2011, 12:34:42 PM
HIC!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 12:59:59 PM
Glass of water for Cilgwyn here! Or a big fright!


Just listened again to the Lento and Vivace movements from Part 1 and the Judex from Part 2. Incredible I'll actually hear them live (God willing).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 09, 2011, 01:05:37 PM
Quote from: DaveF on May 09, 2011, 02:43:31 AM
All,

I was a regular-ish Proms season-ticket holder in the 80s and 90s, but had limited experience of actually queueing for big events.  Does anyone have a recommendation as to what time on July 17th (or July 16th plus sleeping-bag) one should aim to join the queue to be sure of an arena spot?  (Sorry if this has already been asked - looked back a page or two and couldn't see it.)

Thanks,
DF

Very good question and one I am pondering myself. My brother was suggesting 'after lunch' ie c2.00pm but in view of all the publicity about this concert that might be too late - I certainly would not camp out over night - after all, it's not as if it were the Royal Wedding  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 01:09:19 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 09, 2011, 01:05:37 PM
Very good question and one I am pondering myself. My brother was suggesting 'after lunch' ie c2.00pm but in view of all the publicity about this concert that might be too late - I certainly would not camp out over night - after all, it's not as if it were the Royal Wedding  8)


It's not as if you don't have a pass. If you are there in time, you should be able to get in. I trust they know at the RAH how to manage the different 'streams' - of those people with tickets, passes and what have you, and those trying to get a ticket on the day itself.


P.S. At least, I hope so!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 01:23:27 PM
Here's an interesting concert program. A night of classical visionaries and mavericks:

Koechlin: Vers la Voute etoilee
Brian: Symphony No. 6

-Intermission-

Myaskovsky: Symphony No. 27

Encore:

Revueltas: Janitzio

Evgeny Svetlanov
London Symphony Orchestra

Since this was an imaginary concert, I wanted to use Svetlanov for this concert. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on May 09, 2011, 01:31:34 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 09, 2011, 12:33:37 PMOn the other hand a concert pianist with hiccups could be quite funny.

Actually, something of that kind happened to harmonica player Larry Adler. On the back cover of an RCA Gold Seal LP from 1978 that I own, Adler digs out anecdotes from his long carreer. He tells at length about the musical highlight of it, the Romance Vaughan Williams wrote for him in 1952. Five years before, he did a first performance of the Suite for harmonica and orchestra by Darius Milhaud in Paris, with the Orchestre Concerts Colonnes under Gaston Poulet. Adler recalls:

>> I thought it was the rule that the soloist had to play without the music before him: there is, in fact, no such rule, but I thought there was, and played it without the music and in the 3rd movement I just went blank: forgot the whole thing and in my panic I improvised things not only that Milhaud hadn't written but wouldn't have been caught dead writing. ...
During my moments of panic I visualised a review, in English, in next day's Paris edition of the NY Herald-Tribune. "Last night," read my imaginary review, "Larry Adler played the Suite for Mouth-organ and Orchestra by Darius Milhaud with the Concerts Colonnes conducted by Gaston Chicken."
Poulet - chicken, you can see how my nasty little mind worked. I started to giggle, couldn't stop. There I was, playing, sputtering, giggling into the mouth-organ and couldn't do a damned thing about it. Poulet looked at me as if I'd gone demented, which, in a way, I had.
I never explained it to him. How could I? <<

Wishing all the prommers and queuers all the best!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 01:39:48 PM
Nice program, MI! I know the Myaskovsky, too. And I might know the Revueltas, though it has been some time. Koechlin Starry Vault I still have to come round to.


Funny story, Christo!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 01:52:21 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 01:39:48 PM
Nice program, MI! I know the Myaskovsky, too. And I might know the Revueltas, though it has been some time. Koechlin Starry Vault I still have to come round to.

Thank you. You haven't heard this Koechlin work yet or you've heard it but it just hasn't connected with you yet?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 01:54:43 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 01:52:21 PM
Thank you. You haven't heard this Koechlin work yet or you've heard it but it just hasn't connected with you yet?


I must be in the mood. Only when I am open and receptive, can I really 'receive'. I am busy writing and then I like to envelop myelf sonically in what I know to get the creative juices flowing...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 02:00:42 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 01:54:43 PM

I must be in the mood. Only when I am open and receptive, can I really 'receive'. I am busy writing and then I like to envelop myelf sonically in what I know to get the creative juices flowing...

Ah, to each their own I suppose. For me, I can listen to Koechlin anytime and come away with much gratification.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 09, 2011, 02:20:49 PM
If you tie me up I'll listen to some Lachenmann! Actually I have the Koechlin Hanssler cd of 'Vers la Voute etoilee' op.129 & 'Le Docteur Fabricius' in my hand now and just for you MI I will take the Simon & Garfunkel cd (Parsley,Sage,etc) off and put the shorter work of the two on,NOW! I have Sennheiser cordless headphones so I won't disturb anyone! You won't hear a pin drop.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 02:28:42 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 09, 2011, 02:20:49 PM
If you tie me up I'll listen to some Lachenmann! Actually I have the Koechlin Hanssler cd of 'Vers la Voute etoilee' op.129 & 'Le Docteur Fabricius' in my hand now and just for you MI I will take the Simon & Garfunkel cd (Parsley,Sage,etc) off and put the shorter work of the two on,NOW! I have Sennheiser cordless headphones so I won't disturb anyone! You won't hear a pin drop.

:P This will be great! Have you heard this work before?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 09, 2011, 02:42:56 PM
I have had the cd for some time,but alas,I concentrated on the bigger work. Actually,and I'm not just bein polite,this is lovely. Lush impressionism,with a steely,sinewy edge or fibre to it that the very open minded Brian himself may have approved of. Very grand towards the hushed & serene close. It has a similar sound world to the more relaxed,quiet parts of the 'Jungle Book'.
While I'm writing 'Le Docteur Fabricius' has come on (these Sennheisers don't half keep locked onto the signal.The others had me cursing!). A very imposing & mysterious opening. I'd better switch to the Koechlin thread next. You've got me going!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 02:50:42 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 09, 2011, 02:42:56 PM
I have had the cd for some time,but alas,I concentrated on the bigger work. Actually,and I'm not just bein polite,this is lovely. Lush impressionism,with a steely,sinewy edge or fibre to it that the very open minded Brian himself may have approved of. Very grand towards the hushed & serene close. It has a similar sound world to the more relaxed,quiet parts of the 'Jungle Book'.
While I'm writing 'Le Docteur Fabricius' has come on (these Sennheisers don't half keep locked onto the signal.The others had me cursing!). A very imposing & mysterious opening. I'd better switch to the Koechlin thread next. You've got me going!

:D I'm glad to meet somebody who enjoys Koechlin as much as I do!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 09, 2011, 10:41:06 PM
Quote from: Christo on May 09, 2011, 01:31:34 PM
Actually, something of that kind happened to harmonica player Larry Adler. On the back cover of an RCA Gold Seal LP from 1978 that I own, Adler digs out anecdotes from his long carreer. He tells at length about the musical highlight of it, the Romance Vaughan Williams wrote for him in 1952. Five years before, he did a first performance of the Suite for harmonica and orchestra by Darius Milhaud in Paris, with the Orchestre Concerts Colonnes under Gaston Poulet. Adler recalls:

>> I thought it was the rule that the soloist had to play without the music before him: there is, in fact, no such rule, but I thought there was, and played it without the music and in the 3rd movement I just went blank: forgot the whole thing and in my panic I improvised things not only that Milhaud hadn't written but wouldn't have been caught dead writing. ...
During my moments of panic I visualised a review, in English, in next day's Paris edition of the NY Herald-Tribune. "Last night," read my imaginary review, "Larry Adler played the Suite for Mouth-organ and Orchestra by Darius Milhaud with the Concerts Colonnes conducted by Gaston Chicken."
Poulet - chicken, you can see how my nasty little mind worked. I started to giggle, couldn't stop. There I was, playing, sputtering, giggling into the mouth-organ and couldn't do a damned thing about it. Poulet looked at me as if I'd gone demented, which, in a way, I had.
I never explained it to him. How could I? <<

Wishing all the prommers and queuers all the best!

Very funny - I have that LP too.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 09, 2011, 10:44:01 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 01:23:27 PM
Here's an interesting concert program. A night of classical visionaries and mavericks:

Koechlin: Vers la Voute etoilee
Brian: Symphony No. 6

-Intermission-

Myaskovsky: Symphony No. 27

Encore:

Revueltas: Janitzio

Evgeny Svetlanov
London Symphony Orchestra

Since this was an imaginary concert, I wanted to use Svetlanov for this concert. :)

I think that I would camp out overnight for this concert!  The Koechlin I discovered through this forum - a beautiful work. Listened to Miaskovsky's 15th Symphony on my way into work this morning and had forgotten how good it is. I don't have a pass for the proms and am not sure what it is but I suspect that if I track back through this thread I'll find out!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2011, 11:26:33 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 09, 2011, 10:44:01 PM
I think that I would camp out overnight for this concert!  The Koechlin I discovered through this forum - a beautiful work. Listened to Miaskovsky's 15th Symphony on my way into work this morning and had forgotten how good it is. I don't have a pass for the proms and am not sure what it is but I suspect that if I track back through this thread I'll find out!


Still two months to go... ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on May 10, 2011, 01:30:58 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 09, 2011, 10:41:06 PM
Very funny - I have that LP too.  :D

;) All of his anecdotes are very funny. And his account of how RVW came to write his harmonica piece is a geat one.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 08:33:55 AM
He was a regular on the letters page of 'Private Eye'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 08:34:19 AM
Adler not Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2011, 09:03:40 AM
Quote from: Christo on May 10, 2011, 01:30:58 AM
;) All of his anecdotes are very funny. And his account of how RVW came to write his harmonica piece is a geat one.

Yeah, I recall VW threatening to rescore the whole work for banjo at one point when Adler was being difficult!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2011, 09:45:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 10, 2011, 09:03:40 AM
Yeah, I recall VW threatening to rescore the whole work for banjo at one point when Adler was being difficult!

:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 10:27:34 AM
On a more modest level,I REALLY am looking forward to the Naxos reissue of the only remaining Marco Polo disc. Please Naxos,hurry up!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2011, 10:30:22 AM
Which one is that? Symphonies 20 & 25?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 10:37:16 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2011, 10:30:22 AM
Which one is that? Symphonies 20 & 25?

I think it's the one with Andrew Penny conducting correct?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 10:43:10 AM
That's the boy! It'll be cheap,shiny & probably have some nifty artwork too. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 10:53:37 AM
I notice the debate about Mahler's Seventh on the 'Mahler Mania' thread. Mahler's Seventh makes me think of Brian's Seventh. I don't think it's just the numbers. They both share a similarly 'nocturnal' restless imagery,and those odd marches that seem to weave mysteriously in and out. They're both 'cinderella' symphonies,not as appreciated as they really should be and in their own unconventional way,very romantic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2011, 10:59:20 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 10:53:37 AM
I notice the debate about Mahler's Seventh on the 'Mahler Mania' thread. Mahler's Seventh makes me think of Brian's Seventh. I don't think it's just the numbers. They both share a similarly 'nocturnal' restless imagery,and those odd marches that seem to weave mysteriously in and out. They're both 'cinderella' symphonies,not as appreciated as they really should be and in their own unconventional way,very romantic.


I'll have to pop over to the Mahler thread then (didn't look there today). But your comparison with Brian's Seventh is intriguing. I'll have to think about that one, especially since Mahler's Seventh has always been one of my favourites, and I got to know it long before I did Brian's Seventh.


Quote from: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 10:43:10 AM
That's the boy! It'll be cheap,shiny & probably have some nifty artwork too.


I happened to listen to that CD a few weeks ago. Symphony No. 20 impressed me very strongly, a spacious work with some very haunting passages for solo violin...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 11:25:19 AM
I've got a download of it. I shall have a listen later. I understand this is a favourite of yours.
Listening list (at the moment):

Koechlin: Le buisson ardent (etc) Marco Polo cd (after cd1 of the 2cd set of Blossom Dearie!)
Brian:      Symphony No 7

(Whooaa! As I have mentioned somewhere else,I have some Sennheiser Cordless headphones. While I was typing this Koechlins Ondes Martenot shot through my eardrums. As Billy Bunter would have said,'Crikey!' Riveting stuff actually,once you've got the old urge!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 11:27:38 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 09, 2011, 10:44:01 PMI think that I would camp out overnight for this concert!  The Koechlin I discovered through this forum - a beautiful work.

I'd camp out for this concert too! In fact, I would try and buy backstage passes like people can do for rock concerts. I'm such a Svetlanov groupie. :P

I'm trying to learn as much as I can about Koechlin as I want to become an advocate of his music. His music has really in the past few months just completely knocked me out! I had the same experience with Villa-Lobos a few years ago.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2011, 11:30:21 AM
Glad to see the old Entente Cordiale in fine form here (Britain/Brian and France/Koechlin)...  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 11:40:50 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2011, 11:30:21 AM
Glad to see the old Entente Cordiale in fine form here (Britain/Brian and France/Koechlin)...  ;)

:P That's a good one, Johan! Too funny...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 11:51:30 AM
Okay,let's have 'Le Docteur Fabricius' AND 'Le buisson ardent' at the Proms next year,PLEASE!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on May 10, 2011, 11:53:00 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 11:51:30 AM
Okay,let's have 'Le Docteur Fabricius' AND 'Le buisson ardent' at the Proms next year,PLEASE!

If this happens, then I'm going to be making a very special trip over to England specifically for this concert. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2011, 02:16:55 PM
I'm on my second journey through Brians seventh via these nice Sennheiser headphones (German headphones,a connection there & not just the wire!). 'Kaleidoscopic','phantasmagoric','spectral' and that 'nocturnal' quality I wrote about. The whole edifice is jam packed with more good ideas than you hear in some more droned on about symphonies put together. I wanted to put symphonies 6 & 7 on one cd-r so I could play them in order,without having to press any buttons,click through anything or change cd's. Of course,there isn't enough room. Darn the limitations of this technology!
I see there's some passion being vented on the Koechlin thread!


Stop press: the heaphone batteries are starting to run out. Quick! Must get ready charged back up pack into headphones & set charger before I miss any more!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2011, 02:26:29 PM
I went to Liverpool in 1987 to hear Macklerras conduct Symphony No. 7 live at Philharmonic Hall. An unforgettable experience. Malcolm MacDonald - whom I will be seeing again at the Gothic - gave a pre-concert talk.


The Seventh is a strange work. I wonder whether Brian thought it was his last, he was already in his seventies. But because another 25 symphonies followed it, and all shorter, our perspective is different. If it had been his last, you could have seen it as a great and mysterious farewell.


But then the Eighth happened... And the rest is history.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2011, 02:56:44 PM
Thirteen tickets left, at ever-rising prices, now between £69.30 and £93.50 (add around £30 in added costs):


http://www.getmein.com/tickets/prom-4-brian-the-gothic-symphony-tickets/london-202377.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on May 10, 2011, 03:27:08 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 10, 2011, 09:03:40 AM
Yeah, I recall VW threatening to rescore the whole work for banjo at one point when Adler was being difficult!

;) Actually, he threatened with a bass tuba. (And he did: the result being the Tuba Concerto of 1954!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 11, 2011, 03:17:59 PM
I have 'met' a Welsh singer on Twitter, called Sioned Wyn. She is a member of "Côr Caerdydd. We're choir 2A. I'm sure it'll be a fantastic show. But it's exceedingly hard to sing!" In another tweet she writes: "poenus all over! Ma'r holl beth yn gargantuan!ma dau gor n splito i ddau gor plus cor plant a mahoosive cerddorfa!" Which our own Cilgwyn might perhaps be able to translate!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on May 12, 2011, 01:36:00 AM
Ah, twitter Welsh!  If Bishop William Morgan were alive he'd turn in his grave.  She's saying "painful all over!" (Perhaps how she feels after rehearsals?) "The whole thing is gargantuan!  There are two divided choruses and two choruses plus a children's chorus and an orchestra of not inconsiderable size!"

DF
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2011, 01:39:43 AM
Quote from: DaveF on May 12, 2011, 01:36:00 AM
Ah, twitter Welsh!  If Bishop William Morgan were alive he'd turn in his grave.  She's saying "painful all over!" (Perhaps how she feels after rehearsals?) "The whole thing is gargantuan!  There are two divided choruses and two choruses plus a children's chorus and an orchestra of not inconsiderable size!"

DF


Thanks! By the way - I only now realise you're also active on the Gramophone site, and I reacted to your message there yesterday...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on May 12, 2011, 01:45:48 AM
Yes, good to talk to you in both places, Johan.  I was never much of a one for forums until recently in a correspondence with Philip Legge I was bemoaning the fact that the HBS has no forum of its own, and he said...  So here I am.

DF
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2011, 01:51:23 AM
You're right in bemoaning the absence of a forum at the HBS site. But I have it from the Chairman John Grimshaw himself that he appreciates the fact there is a flourishing thread here... I consider this thread threrefore an inofficial part of the HBS!  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on May 12, 2011, 02:27:32 AM
I'm going to need to renew my long-lapsed membership, then...

I loved that translation of the (not specifically Welsh) vernacular 'mahoosive' into 'not inconsiderable size', btw!

BTW, I'm a bit fascinated - I am at work, and was earlier trying to post something on the Birtwistle thread. But no matter how I tried, I wasn't allowed to, because the work filters wouldn't let me. The page I was attempting to access, which, remember, wasn't the thread itself but merely the reply box, 'exceeded the weighted phrase limit' wrt Violence! Why would that be?

But it tells you something about Birtwistle, I guess! No such problems with Brian, of course.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2011, 02:33:02 AM
Quote from: Luke on May 12, 2011, 02:27:32 AM
The page I was attempting to access, which, remember, wasn't the thread itself but merely the reply box, 'exceeded the weighted phrase limit' wrt Violence! Why would that be?

But it tells you something about Birtwistle, I guess! No such problems with Brian, of course.


:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2011, 09:30:27 AM
From Newsletter 214 of the Havergal Brian Society, which I just received. Martyn Brabbins, the intrepid conductor of the upcoming performance of The Gothic, is quoted as saying:


"'My hope is that people are dumbstruck with a kind of awe and admiration that such a piece exists and a composer spent years of his life putting this thing on paper with no real hope or prospect of performance."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on May 16, 2011, 09:51:24 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2011, 09:30:27 AM
From Newsletter 214 of the Havergal Brian Society, which I just received. Martyn Brabbins, the intrepid conductor of the upcoming performance of The Gothic, is quoted as saying:


"'My hope is that people are dumbstruck with a kind of awe and admiration that such a piece exists and a composer spent years of his life putting this thing on paper with no real hope or prospect of performance."

Let's hope Brabbins can pull this work off. If he does, I only pray that there will be a recording that follows.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2011, 11:17:05 PM
Also from Newsletter 214: John Curro, veteran conductor of the Brisbane Gothic:


                                                                                    (http://qyo.org.au/storage/images/conductors/JohnCurro.jpg)


"As for the piece itself, I think feelings about it vary from 'the world's greatest genius who's never been properly understood' to 'a whole lot of noisy rubbish'.  But I don't think he's either of those.  He is a damn good composer: very, very interesting – my goodness me – sometimes very exciting; sometimes very, very beautiful and serene.  There are spots where you think he has undoubtedly got the gift! I guess the aficionados are going to push the genius line, and it's just as well they do because otherwise I don't think he would ever be heard.  And the others had better reconsider."



I think he hits the nail right on the head. Overrating Brian is just as bad as undervaluing him. But in the clamour for attention that is the arts world, it helps to make the case for his importance as enthusiastically as possible, though always backed up by arguments (that will never convince everyone, of course).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on May 17, 2011, 06:53:13 AM
I've been reripping my cds into flac, and I discovered that I have the Gothic symphony! :D  I don't remember if I even listened to it, have I?  Well I'll give it a fresh listen this week. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 17, 2011, 06:59:49 AM
Quote from: haydnfan on May 17, 2011, 06:53:13 AM
I've been reripping my cds into flac, and I discovered that I have the Gothic symphony! :D  I don't remember if I even listened to it, have I?  Well I'll give it a fresh listen this week. :)


Perhaps the Brian fairy left it there...  Good luck with the ascent!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 22, 2011, 02:46:07 PM
Thought I would try Brian's 3rd symphony on my recently purchased Sennheiser cordless headphones (or should that be the other way around) and let me say,Brian's 3rd has never sounded as good (at least to my ears). The brass,piano's all the detail,the score so jam packed with ideas. It all sounds so rich & majestic and whoever described the score (somewhere here) as Brucknerian was not far wrong,although more in sweep and scale than sound. Sometimes I feel this symphony doesn't really work,but as always with Brian there's an underlying logic to everything he does & once you start listening you can't stop,you HAVE to follow it through. Which is one of the reason's I don't play the 'Gothic' as much as I would like to because it's so long and nothing would get done! One of Brian's strangest,wildest,wackiest scores. I particularly love the way the piano's weave in and out. Sometimes it's almost as if the symphony is being gatecrashed by some enormous hyper romantic Piano concerto. Some of the textures,sonorities and effects are quite astonishing. Imagine if this had the exposure it deserved in the time and geographical location in which it was written?  And,by the way Sennheiser + Brian rules!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 22, 2011, 03:11:04 PM
As far as I know the Third did start out as a piano concerto. But Brian the incorrigible symphonist took over... It is a very full work, I agree. The high point for me is the slow movement, which manages to combine a very sensuous pastoral meditativeness with monumentality. Unforgettable.

By the way - symphonies 22-24 plus First English Suite No. 1 are in the can. And the HBS is discussing new recordings, but details aren't forthcoming yet...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 23, 2011, 10:40:03 AM
Yes,I think you're right about the slow movement. Like the Seventh,I find something curiously nocturnal about the symphony. Maybe,just the fantastic imagery it produces. The profusion of ideas,textures and the way that 'would be' piano concerto weaves and glitters and at times thunders out through the sometimes almost luxuriant orchestration makes me think of Villa Lobos (his Choros No 10,for example,which is a sort of quasi piano concerto),not because it sounds like Lobos (it doesn't) but the sheer intricacy, brazen audacity and wildness of some of the scoring. Also because,if you play it late at night it can evoke strange vistas in the 'minds eye',not Brazilian ones of course. I'm thinking more like CS Lewis's 'Perelandra' or even  Edgar Rice Burrough's sci-fi novels,without the 'pulp'(iness) of course.
Of course this is all very subjective & I don't always think of things like that,and I doubt that Brian did. Although,the enigmatic inscription 'Altarus' sounds like it could come from a science fiction novel. David Lindsay's 'Voyage to Arcturus' could sound nearly as good as 'Voyage to Altarus'?
  Another Symphony that evokes alien vistas for me is Cyril Scott's Fourth Symphony. A sort of steely reinvention of impressionism that impressed me allot more than some of Scotts more lauded works. Another nocturnal symphony. Fortunately,Brian's imagery is far more varied and outgoing in temparament.
  Of course,the best way to listen to the symphony is as purely abstract work,which is the way Brian intended it,presumably.
   Regarding the Naxos.Thanks for the 'heads up' as they say. A new recording of the English Suite should lead to some more interesting debates about which is the best or most interesting recording. My gut feeling is that the Hull Youth Symphony version will still have some good points in it's favour. The Symphony No 22 has of course been recorded by the LSSO. No 24,as you already know will,be a first recording.
   I notice on the 'Gramophone forum' you list 27 & 28 (and 5) as the symphonies in most urgent need of recordings.
I think someone needs another go at No 2,as well.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 23, 2011, 10:41:12 AM
By the way,have you any theories about the identity of 'Altarus'?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on May 23, 2011, 10:49:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 22, 2011, 03:11:04 PM
. . . the incorrigible symphonist . . . .

Love it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on May 23, 2011, 11:03:28 AM
I need to revisit that recording, Leon . . . I enjoyed an initial go, I've just been voraciously listening to new stuff . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 23, 2011, 11:04:37 AM
Quote from: Leon on May 23, 2011, 11:01:56 AM
This will be the week that I hear my first note of Brian.

But, first I need to acquire some of his music ...   :-[

I think I go for that disc that has several symphonies including #31 and the Tinkers Wedding (if, for no other reason than I like the sound of the title).      :)
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006YX75.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00006YX75/?tag=goodmusicguideco)

Looks like a nice splattering of works over a decent stretch of time.

8)


That would be an excellent introduction, Leon. The works are varied and the performances very good. If you have any questions after listening, put them to us here at HB HQ.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 23, 2011, 11:09:34 AM
With respect my comments regarding the origin of 'Altarus' as inscribed on Brian's manuscript of the 3rd symphony and my references to Science Fiction. According to the website 'Classical Developements' I'm not exactly the first to whom 'Altarus' has brought up these kind of imaginative associations! It really does sound like something out of an old 50s sci-fi movie ie " I come from the planet Altarus".You know the sort of thing!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 23, 2011, 11:14:40 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 23, 2011, 11:09:34 AM
With respect my comments regarding the origin of 'Altarus' as inscribed on Brian's manuscript of the 3rd symphony and my references to Science Fiction. According to the website 'Classical Developements' I'm not exactly the first to whom 'Altarus' has brought up these kind of imaginative associations! It really does sound like something out of an old 50s sci-fi movie ie " I come from the planet Altarus".You know the sort of thing!


Altarus is very suggestive, I agree. It could be a spurious Latinization of the constellation Altair (as some have suggested). We'll never know. I like your fantasy/sci-fi associations. I have A Voyage to Arcturus, bought it during my rabid fantasy phase (1973-1975, 12-14 years old), but never came round to reading it...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 23, 2011, 11:21:43 AM
I must admit I never actually got past the first page! But it's a good title. Now,if Brian had written 'Krypton' on his manuscript we would have known exactly what he was referring to. Although the composition of the 3rd is a little too early for 'The Man of Steel'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 23, 2011, 12:35:20 PM
                                    http://www.youtube.com/v/wn12y-J2tdg
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 23, 2011, 01:42:12 PM
Thank you. Probably the best reply I've ever encountered on a message board. Music is THE universal language after all. Forget english* or esperanto (I think everyone has). I particularly like those moments of stillness. (I won't bring in any hammy pictorial reference points here,they seem inappropriate). This is the ultimate distillation of all those big earlier works.

*or any language for that matter.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 23, 2011, 02:13:44 PM
Ok,I've got the Dutton Symphony 30 on now. This is quite different. I'm going to do some writing to this!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 23, 2011, 02:17:28 PM
Nos. 27, 28, 30 and 31 share passages of incredible fury and great serenity, but they are all very different in feel.  It's quite remarkable for a man in his nineties to be still so varied.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 04:25:59 AM
I agree. I followed No 30 with Symphony No 18,for some reason ( I listened to it twice in a row).
I will be listening to no's 26 through to 31 next & will report back.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 05:57:58 AM
Regarding the Naxos release. I have read on a 'rival forum' that there was a possibility that release of the cd might be delayed. Apparently because the RLPO had 'their grant' cut. Therefore Naxos were looking for another orchestra. In your recent post you state that the recording is now 'in the can'. If it's 'in the can' it MUST have been recorded! (What else could be in there? Baked Beans?!). Please confirm.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 24, 2011, 06:54:42 AM
The editor of the HBS, Jeremy Marchant, wrote the following, a few days ago:

We're now at a kind of all-time high for the HBS, with recordings coming out all over the shop, The Gothic on at the Proms and another performance already under our belt, the publication of HBoM resumed, several other recordings in the pipeline or under discussion, ongoing work of the SSC and Archive, etc.  So the AGM presents a valuable opportunity to to discuss what the Society should be doing in the longer term.

I now think 'another performance already under our belt' could also refer to the second Toccata release... A few pages ago I remember giving the recording date of the Naxos. If that isn't behind us yet, the 'rival forum' might well be right.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 24, 2011, 07:24:22 AM
The Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra would have been conducted by James Judd in Brian's symphonies 22-24 and the First English Suite No. 1 in June.


Bummer!


I don't hope an ash cloud will be barring my way on 17 July!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 08:15:22 AM
You'll have to get an early boat!
Hopefully,the Volcano will have calmed down by then.
There is no curse!
Actually,the stuff on the Queensland website about a 'curse' suprised me. I always thought it was a 'jinx' not a 'curse'. A curse is usually verbal. I don't recall any stories about a withered old crone hobbling up to Brian and cursing the Gothic?!!! A jinx is just like a run of very bad luck,isn't it? (I know I've read references to a 'Brian jinx' before,but never a 'Brian curse').
(I'll have to look up the dictionary definition later on).

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 24, 2011, 08:24:29 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 08:15:22 AM
You'll have to get an early boat!
Hopefully,the Volcano will have calmed down by then.
There is no curse!
Actually,the stuff on the Queensland website about a 'curse' suprised me. I always thought it was a 'jinx' not a 'curse'. A curse is usually verbal. I don't recall any stories about a withered old crone hobbling up to Brian and cursing the Gothic?!!! A jinx is just like a run of very bad luck,isn't it? (I know I've read references to a 'Brian jinx' before,but never a 'Brian curse').
(I'll have to look up the dictionary definition later on).


You're right. The 'Brian Jinx' has occurred many times since I became interested in the man's music. That Ozzie 'curse' has been simply a commercial ploy. But it did the trick. It was also claimed the work had never been played before, which is untrue, of course. But this, too, helped spark interest. I don't mind!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 09:20:34 AM
You've got to hand it to then,haven't you. I think I might invent a Charles Tournemire curse. I think it would do wonders for his cause.
Look at Philip Glass. I've lost count of how many times I've cursed him and just look at all the records he's sold!
You can't beat a good curse.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 24, 2011, 09:23:16 AM
It might be an idea to bless him more often, then.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 10:52:48 AM
Bless you Mr Glass!
Actually,I haven't really got anything against him. If there are any Glass enthusiasts on this forum. Don't get too worked up,it IS just banter!
I suppose I could curse Lady GaGa (or whatever her name is). I should be safe here.
I think?
Seriously,that 'Curse' thing was a really clever marketing ploy. Maybe that's what Brian needs? Good marketing. T shirts,mugs.....
Incidentally,I wonder if that Havergal Brian bus helped? Did anyone look at that bus & think,'Who's that Havergal Brian guy?',look him up on the internet or library, & then buy a Brian cd?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 24, 2011, 10:56:03 AM
Brian is big with bus drivers in the Brighton area, didn't you know?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 11:10:28 AM
No.Really? (You are being serious,are you?) Although,I don't see why Brighton bus drivers shouldn't be.
What about Dresden bus drivers?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 24, 2011, 11:11:20 AM
I was joking...  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 11:28:06 AM
You got me!
While preparing (!) my reply I couldn't remember exactly where Brian was born. Of course I remembered then,because of Dresden and the Potteries. It's just funny in a way because it's Dresden,but not in Germany,of course! I knew there was something unusual or striking about the name,it just slipped my mind. Anyway,while on Wikipedia I clicked on the LSSO site & found the 1998 reunion video on 'Youtube'. What a nice suprise. I didn't know they'd got back together. Unfortunately,I don't have much time to watch it now  as I am cooking & I don't want charcoal for supper!
They've got some interesting stuff on their site too. I'll have another look soon.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 12:44:05 PM
Dresden in the Potteries,how could I forget that? As they say in Wales,'Duw! Duw!'
There are some posts from some of the LSSO members on this thread. I'll have a look at them. Which reminds me to look through some of the earlier Brian posts again. There's allot of useful information there & I need to swot up.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 12:44:56 PM
That way I won't slip up!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 24, 2011, 01:02:07 PM
Well, this thread is getting longer and longer. So I'll see you again in a few weeks' time.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 03:08:49 PM
Yes,maybe I should have chosen poor old Henry Cowells thread!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 24, 2011, 03:11:02 PM
This is the shortest composer thread. See you soon.


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15859.0.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 03:30:56 PM
Henry Cowell is a lucky man after all! It sounds like Rebikov needs a commercial. Is he REALLY that boring? Maybe an (ash free) airline could help him?
It sounds like the sort of 'thread' I start.
For some reason his photo on Wikipedia made me laugh. Perhaps a mug shot would help!
(It's quite a nice photo really).
According to 'Wiki' he died a forgotten figure,bitter and disillusioned.Oh dear,that 'thread' doesn't help!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 24, 2011, 03:35:27 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/Rebikov_V.I._Postcard-1910.jpg/230px-Rebikov_V.I._Postcard-1910.jpg)


I see what you mean.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 03:44:48 PM
It doesn't help. It reminds me of that sitcom,'Allo! Allo!' But he is Russian and he is actually probably dressed very sensibly for the Russian weather.
Oh well,thinks are looking up for Rebikov. He's now got three more posts.............on the wrong thread.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 24, 2011, 03:47:17 PM
 ;D

René's long-lost Russian brother.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 03:54:49 PM
'Read zis very carefully,I shall post zis only once!'
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 25, 2011, 12:00:52 AM
"It is I, Rebikov!"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on May 25, 2011, 12:59:21 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 24, 2011, 06:54:42 AM

I now think 'another performance already under our belt' could also refer to the second Toccata release... A few pages ago I remember giving the recording date of the Naxos. If that isn't behind us yet, the 'rival forum' might well be right.

I understood the performance "under the belt" as meaning "we've already had one recent performance of The Gothic" (the Brisbane one).

DF
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 25, 2011, 01:08:09 AM
Quote from: DaveF on May 25, 2011, 12:59:21 AM
I understood the performance "under the belt" as meaning "we've already had one recent performance of The Gothic" (the Brisbane one).

DF


You might be right... That simple mail is as cryptic as late Brian.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 29, 2011, 08:44:33 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 24, 2011, 11:28:06 AM
You got me!
While preparing (!) my reply I couldn't remember exactly where Brian was born. Of course I remembered then,because of Dresden and the Potteries. It's just funny in a way because it's Dresden,but not in Germany,of course! I knew there was something unusual or striking about the name,it just slipped my mind. Anyway,while on Wikipedia I clicked on the LSSO site & found the 1998 reunion video on 'Youtube'. What a nice suprise. I didn't know they'd got back together. Unfortunately,I don't have much time to watch it now  as I am cooking & I don't want charcoal for supper!
They've got some interesting stuff on their site too. I'll have another look soon.

I added the LSSO article onto Wiki and also the LSSO part of the Wiki Brian article. The LSSO still exists but isn't at the peak of the 70s and 80s when it had Tippett, Previn. Bliss and Groves conducting. I've been to 4 reunions, the last one being in Bedworth in 2004. The 1998 reunion included players from the 60s, 70s and 80s and there are certainly a few from the 1972 Unicorn session playing in the Brian 10th in 1998 , including 3 of the percussion players (One from the BBCSO and one from the LSO). I took the video. I've uploaded all the LSSO Brian stuff onto my YouTube channels, John1951w and bannan61, not because I'm a Brian fan but just to put as many LSSO clips on line as possible. Eric Pinkett's son, Nigel (cellist with the RPO) has a couple of tapes of the Symphony 22 and Suite No.5 from Brighton and Leicester. These were run throughs for the CBS record in 1974. As I say, I'm no Brian fan but I'm proud of the LSSO's achievemants in this story.
PS I was just pissing by!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on May 30, 2011, 02:23:39 AM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on May 29, 2011, 08:44:33 AM
PS I was just pissing by!!

You may want to edit this edit! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 30, 2011, 02:26:18 AM
John likes to have wicked fun at us poor Brianites. I think the typo is intentional...  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on May 30, 2011, 02:31:26 AM
;D

(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7190/officercrabtreereneallo.jpg)

Edit: this, out of context, at the top of a new page is so ridiculous I just have to leave it as it is.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 30, 2011, 03:24:40 AM
"Good moaning, I was jist pissing by the Havergall Brain thread."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 30, 2011, 07:00:39 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 30, 2011, 02:26:18 AM
John likes to have wicked fun at us poor Brianites. I think the typo is intentional...  ;D

Police officer Crabtree from 'ello 'ello: "Good moaning I was just pissing by!" Classic stuff.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 03, 2011, 01:40:34 PM
The Brisbane Gothic can be heard tomorrow, Saturday 4 June

Where: On 4MBS Classic FM radio, or via internet (www.4mbs.com.au (http://www.4mbs.com.au))

When: 8 PM, Brisbane time (UTC+10h) (=11 AM in Britain, and noon in Continental Europe; American GMG members can make their calculations... I think that's 6 PM in New York and 9 PM in San Francisco?)   
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 03, 2011, 01:44:35 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 03, 2011, 01:40:34 PM
The Brisbane Gothic can be heard tomorrow, Saturday 4 June

Where: On 4MBS Classic FM radio, or via internet (www.4mbs.com.au (http://www.4mbs.com.au))

When: 8 PM, Brisbane time (UTC+10h) (=11 AM in Britain, and noon in Continental Europe; American GMG members can make their calculations... I think that's 6 PM in New York and 9 PM in San Francisco?)   

Thanks, Johan. If I'm not up too late pondering agonizing over the latest quiz  ;D  I should be up in time to hear it.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 03, 2011, 01:46:30 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 03, 2011, 01:44:35 PM
Thanks, Johan. If I'm not up too late pondering agonizing over the latest quiz  ;D  I should be up in time to hear it.

Sarge


I listened to the snippet, but I don't have a clue...  :'(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 04, 2011, 03:27:00 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 03, 2011, 01:40:34 PM
The Brisbane Gothic can be heard tomorrow, Saturday 4 June

Where: On 4MBS Classic FM radio, or via internet (www.4mbs.com.au (http://www.4mbs.com.au/))

When: 8 PM, Brisbane time (UTC+10h) (=11 AM in Britain, and noon in Continental Europe; American GMG members can make their calculations... I think that's 6 PM in New York and 9 PM in San Francisco?)   

11AM in London = 7AM in New York = 4AM in San Francisco
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 04, 2011, 03:40:01 AM
Thanks, Karl. But as my connection failed after an hour or so, and others too are reporting this, I don't think people need to try...  :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 04, 2011, 03:50:52 AM
Oof.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 04, 2011, 04:11:49 AM
I did manage, using Audacity, to grab the stream for Part 1 and the Te Deum laudamus movement of Part 2. So that's something. I'll upload it later today.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 04, 2011, 05:53:49 AM
Oh good. I downloaded 'Audacity' but when I had no luck with 'record'. Of course I missed this broadcast,but I have tried to use it before with little success,I mean,none at all. No wonder I'm the only person in the universe who's planning to buy a cassette deck this year!
Actually,I just want to buy one before they stop making them. Cassettes remind me of that old Jimmy Saville Safety belt ad,"Clunk! Click! Before every trip!" Don't I just love 'em'! Anyway,my 1920's HMV wind up Gramophone player's have no record facility!!!
(Incidentally,I couldn't believe that they are actually STILL making Sony cassette walkmans!)

The audacity of 'Audacity'!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 04, 2011, 05:57:26 AM
Once I've worked out how to use 'Audacity' I'll have to work out how to transfer them to a wax cylinder......I mean,audio cassette.

                                                                                         Yours Sincerely
                                                                                          Cassette Head


PS: I'm thinking of registering as an endangered species!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 04, 2011, 06:52:38 AM
Cilgwyn, why not apply for National Heritage status?

On a more serious but joyous note - someone from Brisbane contacted me with the message he'd been able to make a good recording of the broadcast. So - watch this space...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 04, 2011, 07:55:18 AM
I can't wait for that! I must admit to getting a bit less enthusiastic about neglected composers. I feel it's got to the stage where there are allot of forgotten works and composers tumbling off the small record labels that aren't THAT good. Not that I'm saying that there isn't good stuff awaiting recordings,but I feel that there is a bit of barrel scraping & over praise from certain critics that is starting to make me think that that miserable old sod Glock really DID have a point.......except that he went way too far of course.
Back in the late 70's/early 80's,when I was first 'knock sideways' by the 'Gothic, even most of the Malcolm Arnold symphonies were unrecorded.
Yet Bax and Brian (amongst a select band) keep drawing me back!
Maybe I'll have a spanking  new cassette deck in time for a certain prom!!!

CLUNK! CLICK!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 04, 2011, 08:02:47 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 04, 2011, 06:52:38 AM
So - watch this space...

I will.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 04, 2011, 09:24:59 AM
Darn it. The new cassette decks have touch controls. I might as well stick with the cd writer!
This'll be another space I'll be watching,besides the one on my living room wall. I just wish someone had the final movement of Ralph Holmes performance of Brian's 'Violin Concerto'. The last two-three minutes of mine got accidentally taped over. (Now if that had been a cd-r!)
Other neglected composers that still impress me,to varying degrees,include:

Tournemire
D'indy
Pizzetti  (not too sure about the 'Concerto dell 'estate'. But maybe it's the Naxos recording)
Bate (so far!)
Ropartz
Parry
Langgaard
Hanson
Magnard
Bantock (at his best)
Antheil   (at his best)
Lortzing (not exactly deep,but very good at what he did & his music cheers me up!)
Not sure if Roussel counts!
Stenhammer
Atterberg sounds very tempting! But I am currently resisting the BIS box set (it's on my 'list')
Lyatoshinsky (when he's not being too noisy)
Gliere
Most neglected American composers except Henry Cowell.
So it's not all bad news!

Mirror Image is definately onto something with Koechlin.
I won't list the one's who DON'T impress me as I don't want to upset anyone and also because I'm off topic and urgently in need of moderation!
Sorry to be so negative. Maybe it's just the weather or a mid life crisis! Or 'old age' is making me more critical?
Brian and Bax,however,ARE definately special. After the Prom performance of the 'Gothic',hopefully,a staged professional performance of 'The Tigers',a cd release of the Radio 3 performance,a recording of the 'Wine of Summer' and the first ever complete performance of 'Faust' will follow. And someone will find the score of 'Prometheus Unbound' (there's always hope). Oh,and (gulp) Bax's 'Winter Legends' at the Proms.
Am I asking too much?
And now,back to Dvorak!
                                                                    Yours Sincerely
                                                                     Grumpy
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 04, 2011, 10:10:49 AM
'Herrenberg'. Regarding 'National Heritage Status'. Not too sure about this. I don't want too many people walking all over me!
Hope the Brisbane audience are quiet. Not too many 'coughers' or fainting choir boys,I hope.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 04, 2011, 10:42:25 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 04, 2011, 10:10:49 AM
'Herrenberg'. Regarding 'National Heritage Status'. Not too sure about this. I don't want too many people walking all over me!
Hope the Brisbane audience are quiet. Not too many 'coughers' or fainting choir boys,I hope.


I had a listen to fragments of Part 1 (of my own recording) and I didn't spot any fainting or coughing...


--Johan
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 04, 2011, 11:06:47 AM
The audience were probably too overwhelmed.
Not sure about the choirboys. Better air conditioning perhaps.
Any chance of a dvd release,I wonder? I know there was a documentary.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 04, 2011, 12:09:25 PM
One of the reasons Brian and Bax make so much impact is because the musical world they have created is so unique and complete. I remember the sleeve notes for the Lyrita release of Symphonies 6 & 16 describing Brian's symphonies as a 'strange' (unexplored) 'hinterland' (I can't remember the exact words). I also remember the notes with the box set of Bax symphonies (Bryden Thomson) comparing Bax's symphonic achievement to Tolkein's 'Lord of The Rings'. Not because Brian has anything to do with goblins or Orc's,I hasten to add,but because of the completeness of Bax's vision. A feeling of journeying through some unique,fantastical realm. Also,the fact that Bax chose to finish his cycle with the Seventh as opposed to being thwarted by illness or death,meaning that when you finally reach the end of Symphony No 7,you get the feeling that you really HAVE reached journeys end,an intended goal,a summation of everything that happened before. There are no loose ends. It's very satisfying in so many ways,emotionally,spiritually and perhaps even intellectually and philosophically,but I don't want to sound too pretentious. 
Brian's cycle gives you the same feeling.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 04, 2011, 12:19:37 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 04, 2011, 12:09:25 PM
One of the reasons Brian and Bax make so much impact is because the musical world they have created is so unique and complete. I remember the sleeve notes for the Lyrita release of Symphonies 6 & 16 describing Brian's symphonies as a 'strange' (unexplored) 'hinterland' (I can't remember the exact words). I also remember the notes with the box set of Bax symphonies (Bryden Thomson) comparing Bax's symphonic achievement to Tolkein's 'Lord of The Rings'. Not because Brian has anything to do with goblins or Orc's,I hasten to add,but because of the completeness of Bax's vision. A feeling of journeying through some unique,fantastical realm. Also,the fact that Bax chose to finish his cycle with the Seventh as opposed to being thwarted by illness or death,meaning that when you finally reach the end of Symphony No 7,you get the feeling that you really HAVE reached journeys end,an intended goal,a summation of everything that happened before. There are no loose ends. It's very satisfying in so many ways,emotionally,spiritually and perhaps even intellectually and philosophically,but I don't want to sound too pretentious. 
Brian's cycle gives you the same feeling.


I remember that connection being made between Bax and Tolkien, too. It was Lewis Foreman who drew this parallel. But I think Brian and Tolkien are much more akin, both in creating deeply personal worlds over an enormous period of time, and being marked and made by the experience of the First World War. Bax and Brian have both left us coherent oeuvres, where everything is interconnected and which stand apart from the fashions of their time. If the music speaks to you, you can have a very personal relationship with it, also because both composers haven't been accepted into the canon (yet) and aren't studied to death.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 04, 2011, 01:25:11 PM
Indeed. I think the parallel Foreman was thinking of was Bax's proccupation with legend and mythology,but the connections are otherwise pretty slim. Tolkein's creation seems closer to the germanic world of the 'Nibelunglied' that inspired Wagner's 'Ring' cycle than the Celtic,and Gaelic mythology that fired Bax's imagination. (I know that it has been suggested that Tolkein may have got the idea of the ring from Wagner's cycle).Only some of Bax's later music like the 'Northern Ballads',for example,inspired by 'Northern' mythology really come close. Although,anyone who enjoys Tolkein could certainly identify with some of the sound world of,say,Bax's First or Second symphony,particularly the more turbulent parts.
  On the other hand,Lewis Foreman's comparison with Tolkein undoubtedly did my adolescent imagination a big favour. Being very interested in mythology and Welsh folklore in particular,Foreman's Tolkein analogy really appealed to me. From that moment I was hooked.
Mind you,I don't think Lewis Foreman ever intended the comparison to be taken literally.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 04, 2011, 01:29:45 PM
Did you ever read Evangeline Walton's retelling of the Mabinogion (four novels)? Or John Cowper Powys' Porius and Owen Glendower?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 04, 2011, 02:02:43 PM
I have read the actual 'Mabinogion',but not in Welsh I'm afraid. Unfortunately,while my father's first language is Welsh,my Mother was born in Kent & always spoke to me in HER native tongue. I am not aware of that novelisation. As to John Cowper Powys. I am aware of the Powys brothers and that particular book,although I have to say I find his style of writing a little too 'dense' for my taste. Also,I'm not intellectual enough. If I started it I'd probably still be reading it in twenty years time. Machen's more my cup of tea! I know about Owain Glyndwr of course. My father's a bit of a Welsh Nationalist. Although,I should point out,he just votes for them,he's not into bombs like the IRA was!
(I can sing,pronounce & get the gist of a conversation in Welsh,however).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 04, 2011, 02:08:30 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 04, 2011, 02:02:43 PM
I have read the actual 'Mabinogion',but not in Welsh I'm afraid. Unfortunately,while my father's first language is Welsh,my Mother was born in Kent & always spoke to me in HER native tongue. I am not aware of that novelisation. As to John Cowper Powys. I am aware of the Powys brothers and that particular book,although I have to say I find his style of writing a little too 'dense' for my taste. Also,I'm not intellectual enough. If I started it I'd probably still be reading it in twenty years time. Machen's more my cup of tea! I know about Owain Glyndwr of course. My father's a bit of a Welsh Nationalist. Although,I should point out,he just votes for them,he's not into bombs like the IRA was!
(I can sing,pronounce & get the gist of a conversation in Welsh,however).


I've been to Aberystwyth and Caernarvon. Wales is beautiful and I like the sound of the language. I have read Arthur Machen's stories, but that was a long time ago. I should read him again to see what I'd make of him now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 04, 2011, 03:35:48 PM
I am currently reading 'The Hill of Dreams' which is supposed to be his masterpiece. Unlike some of his writing it's not an occult novel and has no supernatural basis. It's all in the description of the countryside and the 'hero's' imagination. A product of the 'fin de siecle',some of his writing is a bit wordy or 'purple' by todays standards. 'The Hill of Dreams' has been called the most decadent book in the English language. By whom,I don't know (perhaps you do?). I was pleased to see that the book had been brought back into print by a Welsh publisher with the help of a grant from the Welsh assembly. Hopefully,they might get around to funding some new recordings of our native composers. Daniel Jones and David Wynne are horribly neglected,even in their own country.
As to 'Caernarvon',I'm ashamed to say I've never been there. Not being a great traveller,Wales feels as big as Russia to me! On the other hand,I've been to Aberystwyth loads of times,although not recently. I remember being taken there on a school trip when I was young. The teacher took us to the amusement arcade where we spent our day out gambling on the machines. Seargent Bilko,eat your heart out! I was a bit miffed recently to find out that they'd pulled the place down and replaced it with some boring looking flats (I think). Not that I gamble,but it was a 'childhood memory and the building was 'art deco'. The rotters!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 05, 2011, 03:37:27 AM
Gambling? Anyone think I'm getting a bit off topic here?!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 05, 2011, 03:54:29 AM
I don't see the connection between Brian and gambling, either...  :D But Havergal will be returning to this thread, I have no doubt.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 05, 2011, 05:46:32 AM
Here is another great symphony, subtitled 'The Gothic' (from 1940). Oddly enough, although the late romantic style is less idiosyncratic than the Brian, it reminded me of HB's Gothic at times.  Strongly recommended too - this is a moving, memorable and powerful score, as is the accompanying 'In Memoriam'.

[asin]B00000463Y[/asin]

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 05, 2011, 05:51:06 AM
Thanks, Jeffrey. I had heard of the name, but didn't have any idea about his style.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 05, 2011, 08:09:44 AM
Here is the link to the map with the Brisbane Gothic.The sound is perfectly acceptable. As for the performance - judge for yourselves. Discussion afterwards...


http://www.mediafire.com/?km7z6cl54mpyv
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 05, 2011, 09:05:42 AM
A visionary,epoch making link. I will investigate it forthwith!
Regarding Frederic Devreese (his son,I believe?). I have his Piano Concerto's. They sound like Prokofiev meets Gershwin in places & in the words of the Frosty's tiger, " They'rrre grrrrreeeat!". I particularly like the Second. The piano playing on the Marco Polo release is marvellous. One of the best attempts at a 'jazzy' concerto, in the Gershwin mould ever,in my opinion. It should be more popular. I have another 2cd set of orchestral works by him. Not deep,maybe,but very enjoyable! A wonderful composer who deserves to be better known.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 05, 2011, 09:13:17 AM
Can't believe I'm downloading a new professional performance of the Gothic. I'm going to have to pinch myself.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 05, 2011, 09:50:52 AM
FWIW, Paul Cienniwa played movements from Boëllmann's Suite gothique for the prelude and postlude of this morning's service.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 05, 2011, 12:10:30 PM
Haven't had time to listen to it all the way through,but I definately prefer this performance to the Naxos which I hated! Biggest problem I have had so far is the Judex. The orchestral 'interludes' seem to be taken at an absolute snail pace which to my ears seriously robs them of them of all their usual drama and momentum. Not that the playings bad,and whom am I to criticise,but phew that IS slow,and I always find those parts so thrilling. For once the hairs stayed firmly on the back of my neck!
Hope you don't mind me grumbling like this. I AM grateful to be able to hear this,and it's fascinating to hear another interpretation,at last (!),but phew,that's slow!
Great to hear it again,though,isn't it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 05, 2011, 12:46:28 PM
I am listening to the first interlude as I write. To my ears the tempo is the same as in the Boult performance, perhaps even a tad quicker... I must say - I like it that way. The whole Judex is a slowly-building catastrophe, and I like the heaviness. The second interlude is (should be?) quicker and lighter. I'll see what Curro does when I arrive there.


You're entitled to grumble, Cilgwyn. I find most of the soloists not very impressive... And the chorus is sometimes struggling manfully. But all in all, this performance has a character of its own, and there is a lot of orchestral detail I have never heard before. There were several moments I was simply aghast at the power of the music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 05, 2011, 12:52:14 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 05, 2011, 09:05:42 AM
A visionary,epoch making link. I will investigate it forthwith!
Regarding Frederic Devreese (his son,I believe?). I have his Piano Concerto's. They sound like Prokofiev meets Gershwin in places & in the words of the Frosty's tiger, " They'rrre grrrrreeeat!". I particularly like the Second. The piano playing on the Marco Polo release is marvellous. One of the best attempts at a 'jazzy' concerto, in the Gershwin mould ever,in my opinion. It should be more popular. I have another 2cd set of orchestral works by him. Not deep,maybe,but very enjoyable! A wonderful composer who deserves to be better known.

Thanks - you must investigate Devreese's 'Gothic' without delay - I'm sure you'll like it (and the terrific 'In Memoriam' on the same disc) - if you hear it let us know what you think. Yes, he was the father of Frederic.

After that Zen type diversion I'll return the thread to Havergal Brian.  8)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 05, 2011, 12:54:47 PM
If he's as good as his son he's good enough for me! Thank you Vandermolen.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 05, 2011, 12:57:33 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 05, 2011, 12:54:47 PM
If he's as good as his son he's good enough for me! Thank you Vandermolen.

Better I think - but you must check this out with Tony, the Frosties Tiger (that is his name if I recall correctly :D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 05, 2011, 01:16:10 PM
I agree, Cilgwyn, that the second interlude in its first half is perhaps too slow...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 05, 2011, 02:04:02 PM
Thank you.The 'second interlude',to be precise. Of course I'm just used to the performances I've heard & for all I know,maybe that's the right way. But it doesn't sound right to me,that's all. I always found this bit so exciting,not that the whole work isn't exciting,but Brian's use of the orchestra here is so thrilling. I feel it gains from being taken at a bit more of 'lick'! (says Mr Know-it-all!!!).
Mind you,if I'd been at the concert I'd feel like a pretty satisfied concert goer on the whole. I'd certainly buy 'the cd' if the performance is ever released in that format.
   On another 'Havergal Brian point'. I was listening to the Mackerras performance of the Second symphony which I used to have on cassette years ago. I remember being very disappointed with the Naxos release. In my opinion,and I'm just a music lover really,it 's the worst performance of a Brian symphony I have ever heard. Anyway,listening to the Mackerras performance was a wholly different experience and reminded me of what a marvellous,atmospheric symphony this is,yet,along with No 7,which is incidentally one of my favourites,it doesn't seem to be appreciated as much as it should,even by some Brian admirers (and I don't mean you). Anyway,not having heard it for a while and in such a good performance,I was struck by the similarity of some parts of it,to the third symphony. Not that it sounds the same,but some of the textures and 'sound world' of the quieter sections sound very similar to parts of the third. In fact,as I often listen on headphones while I am writing or reading,I'm maybe,at times,not listening quite as carefully as I should,and I remember,for one brief moment thinking I WAS actually listening to the third,and then the moment passed,and I realised my mistake. (Incidentally,I listened to the third immeadiately after listening to the third).
Have you ever noticed any similarities yourself?

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 05, 2011, 02:12:07 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 05, 2011, 02:04:02 PMHave you ever noticed any similarities yourself?


O, yes! And you can add the Violin Concerto, too, first two movements. They share that very busy and chromatic texture, filled to bursting. Though I have never mistaken the Second for the Third. Both works are very different in feel. No. 2 is darker, 'greyer' to my ears, whilst No. 3 is in brilliant technicolor.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 05, 2011, 03:18:27 PM
Only momentarily! As I said,I put on the headphones,the music starts playing,I'm engrossed in what I'm doing & suddenly I think,'Hang on,isn't that the 3rd symphony,then a moment later I realise my mistake'. I certainly would never confuse the two if I was giving the music my full attention. But it did make me think. After that I began feeling that in  respect of the texture and the kind of busy,chromatic writing you describe, that the two works did have allot in common,although as you point out,the Second is greyer in texture and perhaps in atmosphere. And yes,now I think of it,the Violin Concerto also bears similarities,(although I really do need to have another listen to it).
  Incidentally,I am thinking of making a cd-r of the Ralph Holmes performance of the Violin Concerto with the Bisengaliev finale added on. As I have told you,a couple of years ago I accidentally,I forget how,taped over the last 2-3 minutes or so of my Dolby copy of the Holmes. You will know from my postings that I prefer this performance,although I am given to understand that Bisengaliev is a technically superior musician & some passages were restored which were cut from the Holmes recording? At any rate,this way I should be able to listen to the 'Holmes' performance,with a little help from Bisengaliev,all the way through!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on June 05, 2011, 10:31:10 PM
Great, many thanks for putting the Gothic up. It is some time since I last listened to it and what a thrilling work it is. The performance reminds of the, rarely spoken of, Hanley performance, there are a lot of fluffs but something gets through.
I envy those who are going to the prom Gothic, but a word of warning, if you are standing, and the BBC orchestra get it right, be prepared to collapse; it is so powerful live.
To paraphrase a quote from Thomas Hardy used by Holst to describe Egdon Heath which reminds me very much of the Gothic.
'A symphony perfectly accordant with man's nature - neither ghastly, hateful nor ugly; neither commonplace, unmeaning nor tame; but like man, slighted and enduring; and withal singularly colossal and mysterious in its swarthy monotony'
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 05, 2011, 10:42:07 PM
That's a well-known (to me, at least) and great quote, Hattoff. I love Hardy. I agree with your 'something gets through' - the spirit of the piece is so strong, it survives any fluffs. I am listening to this performance for the third time now, and it is growing on me. The orchestra is marvellous and Curro's direction is convincing me more and more. Philip Legge, who sang in the chorus, wrote to me this morning about how he experienced the Judex movement. I think his comments might be interesting:


For me, Curro's rendition of the Judex (aside from the opening, alas!) is the strongest reading of it of the three I've heard – I can't compare Schmidt, or the reputed Fairfax or Stokes audience bootlegs that may exist (?). My standout memory of the performance is how Curro elicited from the wind and brass players as large a weight of sheer, massive tone as can be imagined from the orchestral sections onwards – for me this was Rodin's metaphor of Gothic architecture as cruel masses of balanced stone held in tension against one another, being made clearly audible in sound. We had a full complement of the 32 woodwind, if not quite as many of the brass, but all of the various instrumental categories were represented, and they all added to the richness and density of the sound.

Being situated in the chorus, hearing the upper strings (and slightly under-number to Brian's specifications), was alone not ideal: but when the deep, low winds and brass were marching to Curro's beat the effect was reminiscent of the implacable power of ocean waves, steadily rolling forward in deep waters. The final pages of that movement were electric, and with that many players playing at their extreme in the more confined space of the Brisbane concert hall (as opposed to the larger space you'll have at the Royal Albert Hall) the last bars were as energetic and apocalyptic as one could want.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 06, 2011, 03:00:10 AM
Uh-oh,that's telling me,isn't it! I'll have to change my nick name to 'Nit Picker'! I think I'm just used to the one's I've heard. It will be interesting to see if I am alone in finding his approach to the 'second interlude' incredibly slow. Other than that I think it is a pretty stunning rendition. I particularly love his way with the brass. Also,that wierd 'storm' sequence,which must be so difficult to get perform. How to mantain the momentum without sacrificing the manic intensity of that wild  Witches sabbath that would have knocked Berlioz's metaphorical socks off if some Faustian pact with the devil had given him the chance to hear it (I think he'd have been impressed).
Curro sails through it like a god! 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 03:10:13 AM
This isn't "kiss-and-tell" material, I don't think. I have never experienced the Gothic live (yet), nor have I ever sung in it. So this first-hand report is too illuminating not to pass on... But I'll tell him. If Philip objects, it's gone.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 06, 2011, 03:45:23 AM
I've printed Philip's description out,just in case 'it's gone'! (No one else will see it).One of the best descriptions of the impact of hearing the Gothic I've read. It reminds me of the thrill of hearing it for the first time, as a teenager,all those years ago.
And you can't really argue with someone who's been there and sung it,can you!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 04:02:17 AM
This one was good, too...


Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 31, 2010, 01:38:38 PM
Because it is so good and atmospheric, I'll give you Karim Elmahmoudi's impression (on Facebook) of the Brisbane Gothic in full. Let it be the last thing to appear on this thread before 2010 ends. 2011 should be another great year for Havergal Brian...

"I recently returned from Brisbane, Australia, where I heard a live performance of Havergal Brian's "Gothic Symphony". This work is the largest symphonic composition - officially recognized by the Guinness Book of Records (1974) as the largest, longest and most technically difficult symphony ever composed, it is widely regarded as the Mount Everest of classical music. The music required about 500-600 performers of great technical and musical skills.

Some quick statistics: It requires 8 fanfare trumpets, 10 percussionists, organ, 4 choirs plus an additional children's choir, 4 extra brass bands, 11 clarinets, 6 timpanists (an orchestra of 180). I auditioned to play one of the trombone parts. Though I wasn't selected, I was invited to attend the rehearsals which I gladly did since this is a work I have been greatly moved by since I first encountered it in its 1989 premiere recording. Plus it was great to make many new friends from Australia and elsewhere around the world.

This was the first time in 30 years since the piece was last performed and only the fifth time in history since its composition in the 1920's. This had to have ranked up in the top two or three live concert events I've ever experienced. The musicianship of the combined orchestras was exceptional and the impact of the performance was a truly shattering experience.

Knowing this work very well, I was concerned if a live performance would be able to capture it given its extreme technical challenges (for example, there are some moments where the choirs are broken down into 32 separate polyphonic parts), but I was thrilled at hearing the tremendous sound of the full collected forces in action! I'm certain this must have registered on the Richter scale somewhere as an earthquake. Along with some delicate moments, the music features some of the most intensely primal moments I have ever heard!

The collage of colors and sounds are so unique – there is a xylophone cadenza in the third movement against unison tubas that was executed extremely well by the performers. The momentum builds and builds with orchestral growls intensifying until the tension is unshakeable and then we hear unison trombone pedal tones blasting a hole in the opposite end of the concert hall.

During the performance, I really enjoyed sitting next to a kind audience member and her young daughter – neither of whom had ever heard of the Gothic Symphony but decided to attend out of curiosity. During the concert they were fully engaged and tremendously enjoyed the whole event and even some of the moments of musical barbarism. It was one of the quietest audiences because they were all so engaged and moved by the performance. Not a peep from anyone even considering this 115 minute work had no intermission. The concert quickly sold out so they opened up the dress rehearsal and that also filled up. The audience was very excited and gave a 10 minute standing ovation. Really, there is nothing I've encountered that is quite like this behemoth of a work."

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 04:35:01 AM
Cilgwyn, your dissatisfaction with the tempo of part of the Judex is confirmed by this passage from Malcolm MacDonald's The Symphonies of Havergal Brian: "This second big orchestral interlude is faster, more delicately scored, and lighter in tone than the first."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 06, 2011, 04:42:09 AM
I'll print that out too! I must admit I was nit picking. I remember watching part of the rehearsal on 'Youtube' before it was taken down (is it back yet? I must look). A liitle while later I read a review of the performance which was quite critical (I forget where. My memory!). I remember thinking.if the rehearsal was that good.
Slower,(with respect to the 'Judex') doesn't mean worse anyhow. Come to think of it,maybe Schmidt (my favourite performance) was too fast! With respect to another massive symphony that's also pretty impressive,but in a different sort of way. Gliere's 'Ilya Murometz'. Fabermann's performance has been cricised for being far too slow,but in my opinion packs oodles more atmosphere and drama via his massive grip on the overall structure of the piece.
I should stop moaning though. I mean,when I finally hear another performance of Tournemire's Sixth symphony (another choral whopper,incidentally) will I just be whinging about the performance being TOO slow?
What really bothered me about the Naxos performance was the way the tempo of the music seem veer from one extreme to another & one of my favourite bit's the xylophone in the 'storm' sequence. What happened? Where did it go? So much of Brian's amazing orchestration seem to disappear or be submerged by the muddy recording. Yet,on the plus side,the choirs were stunning.
I should stop moaning.shouldn't I ? When I finally hear another performance of Tournemire's Sixth symphony (another massive choral whopper,incidentally) will I be just griping on about how slow it is?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 06, 2011, 05:09:02 AM
Malcolm MacDonald 'agrees' with me. Oh well,maybe I'm not a complete idiot,even if I'm a nit picker!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 06, 2011, 05:54:33 AM
Love the 'modify' button! You can fine tune a posted masterpiece. It reminds me of Frasier in 'Cheers' reading Dickens to the unimpressed bar customers. A finished post could read like this:
'It was the best of times and the worst of times,it was the age of increased performances of the Gothic,it was the epoch of nit picking about slow readings of the Judex.........'

Maybe not!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 05:58:58 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 06, 2011, 04:42:09 AM
When I finally hear another performance of Tournemire's Sixth symphony (another massive choral whopper,incidentally) will I be just griping on about how slow it is?


Chances are - yes.  ;D


Quote from: cilgwyn on June 06, 2011, 05:54:33 AM
Love the 'modify' button! You can fine tune a posted masterpiece. It reminds me of Frasier in 'Cheers' reading Dickens to the unimpressed bar customers. A finished post could read like this:
'It was the best of times and the worst of times,it was the age of increased performances of the Gothic,it was the epoch of nit picking about slow readings of the Judex.........'


I can hear the slow rotation of a Victorian novelist.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 06:02:49 AM
Use of quote officially approved by Philip Legge.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on June 06, 2011, 07:05:48 AM
Hello all!

I have to be a little careful in my choice of my words talking about the Brisbane Gothic, since if I upset the Brisbane team's applecart I'll be sent to the naughty corner and won't be given any dessert.

It is to be hoped the performance will come out soon on CD -- even in compressed 16-bit 22kHz Internet radio the orchestral playing is beautifully detailed, and the big moments clearly suffer from sound compression artifacts that the master would not. I could wish for a little more woodwind and upper strings, but there is so much that is audible in comparison to the muffled echoing acoustic captured by the Naxos disc that it's a little churlish to complain. There are not many orchestral fluffs (the Naxos disc has its share of wrong notes too!) and at one point at Et rege eos one would have liked rather more organ tone.

The choir, as someone put it, struggled manfully (and womanfully and childfully?) with the work, and it shows in the most difficult or exposed passages - so I'll add one or two small qualifications to J.Z.'s quotation. Alas! in relation to the start of Judex does not refer to Curro's interpretation but is strictly in respect of the tuning, which is at times infernal. The choir being mainly amateur voices and stiffened by comparatively few professional voices found the up-to-37-parts division almost beyond them. The choir did not suffer from a loss of pitch, fortunately.

The second interlude is a little slow - I think on the night John may have decided to take it a little slower than in the rehearsals, to bring out the extraordinary amount of detail that is absolutely teeming in that section. There is also a stringendo marked after the big horn tune with castanets and timps, so the slower tempo allows for the much greater quickening of pace at the end of the interlude; Lenárd is faster throughout there, but has no overhead to give much acceleration.

I would write more but I'm away from the computer, and the iPhone keyboard has its limitations!

Cheers Philip
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 06, 2011, 07:39:20 AM
It looks good to me. I can hardly type on a pc keyboard!
Apologies for the ungrateful griping about the judex. Considering that It's a colossal,record breaking sized work & not exactly repertory stuff,I think you all did a pretty marvellous job. I can't wait for the cd.

Regarding Tournemire's Sixth. What'll really make's me moan is when there's nothing to moan about!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 06, 2011, 07:41:30 AM
A potato printer with letters carved into the bottoms is hi-tech by my standards!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 08:25:56 AM
Thanks, Philip, for joining us in this Brianic nook of the universe! I am very grateful for your comments - they bring an unforgettable occasion to life. If you have more words of wisdom, here is the place!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2011, 08:26:56 AM
Breakfast in the Brianic nook
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 06, 2011, 08:35:37 AM
Please do!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 09:32:20 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 06, 2011, 08:35:37 AM
Please do!


It's night down under...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on June 06, 2011, 10:16:45 AM
Just to say - I downloaded the Brisbane Gothic from Johan's mediafire files yesterday, for which much thanks to him and his sources. I simply haven't had time to listen to it yet, but I wanted to get my thanks in early!

I couldn't resist letting the symphony start up, though, just to wallow for a while...it was hard to tear myself away! As far as I heard - which was only about halfway through the first movement - tempi and balances and so on reminded me of the Lenard, but there was the added bite and edge and risk of a live performance, and that made it very compelling. Hoping for a spare couple of hours soon....though I don't know when they will come!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2011, 10:45:58 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 09:32:20 AM
It's night down under...

And winter's a-coming . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 10:49:05 AM
Quote from: Luke on June 06, 2011, 10:16:45 AM
Just to say - I downloaded the Brisbane Gothic from Johan's mediafire files yesterday, for which much thanks to him and his sources. I simply haven't had time to listen to it yet, but I wanted to get my thanks in early!

I couldn't resist letting the symphony start up, though, just to wallow for a while...it was hard to tear myself away! As far as I heard - which was only about halfway through the first movement - tempi and balances and so on reminded me of the Lenard, but there was the added bite and edge and risk of a live performance, and that made it very compelling. Hoping for a spare couple of hours soon....though I don't know when they will come!


Yes, John Curro does some things the same way as Lenard. But as you progress, you notice more and more original 'solutions' to the multiple problems of pacing, tempo, orchestral balance... At first I disagreed with some of his decisions. Now, a few listeninings on, I can understand the reasoning behind them. Curro's approach is very dynamic, he pushes on and on. You get the sense that his goal is clear and that he is forging ahead. I like that a lot.


Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 06, 2011, 10:45:58 AM
And winter's a-coming . . .


I wonder, Karl, do you by any chance watch HBO's 'Game of Thrones'? A recurring motto there is 'Winter is coming'...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2011, 10:51:48 AM
I don't! Never heard of it (we don't subscribe to HBO) . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 10:54:34 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 06, 2011, 10:51:48 AM
I don't! Never heard of it (we don't subscribe to HBO) . . . .


It's a series based on George R.R. Martin's historic fantasy series A Song of Fire and Ice. He is called the 'American Tolkien'... And though he is very different, after reading the first book in his series, I can't deny he can write.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on June 06, 2011, 11:05:47 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 10:54:34 AM

It's a series based on George R.R. Martin's historic fantasy series A Song of Fire and Ice. He is called the 'American Tolkien'... And though he is very different, after reading the first book in his series, I can't deny he can write.

Love Martin, but he is not remotely Tolkien-esque! :D  Sometime try out if you haven't Fevre Dream, a short novel about vampires on a river boat. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 11:09:32 AM
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll keep the title in mind. But first I have three other weighty tomes to read (and volume 5 will be published in July...)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on June 06, 2011, 11:12:05 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 11:09:32 AM
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll keep the title in mind. But first I have three other weighty tomes to read (and volume 5 will be published in July...)!

When you get that far you should make a list of principle characters from the 1st and 5th (I haven't made it that far, but by the 3rd wow!) and see if any of them made it. ;D  Since Erikson's series is actually complete now, I'm going to be reading his series. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 11:18:17 AM
Quote from: DavidW on June 06, 2011, 11:12:05 AM
When you get that far you should make a list of principle characters from the 1st and 5th (I haven't made it that far, but by the 3rd wow!) and see if any of them made it. ;D  Since Erikson's series is actually complete now, I'm going to be reading his series. :)


Good luck! That's 10 books! I think I'll read Erikson, too. But later. Martin first.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 06, 2011, 12:05:47 PM
Vampires on a riverboat? Am I on the right thread?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 06, 2011, 12:08:14 PM
Ok,carry on,but I've got a stake just in case!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 12:12:53 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 06, 2011, 12:08:14 PM
Ok,carry on,but I've got a stake just in case!


Sensible people, the Welsh.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 06, 2011, 12:15:40 PM
I hear you're a stake holder in the Havergal Brian Society.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 12:17:21 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 06, 2011, 12:15:40 PM
I hear you're a stake holder in the Havergal Brian Society.


:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on June 06, 2011, 12:50:32 PM
I'll have to make up for my OT-ness by finally listening to the Gothic... ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 12:53:16 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 06, 2011, 12:50:32 PM
I'll have to make up for my OT-ness by finally listening to the Gothic... ;D


If you really must, just listen to the first three purely instrumental movements...  :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on June 06, 2011, 02:09:56 PM
Johan was right, I was away getting my beauty sleep, and I gather it's now breakfast-time in the Brianic nook...

I heartily endorse J.Z.'s suggestion of listening to just the first part of the Gothic, even in the case of the listeners who sometimes post here that have no particular liking for Brian:
* It's a complete three-movement work in itself with the composer's express endorsement for it to be performed in this manner, and Brian designed a special ending for it in the event that Part Two wasn't to be played. Because of the way they staged the work in Brisbane (choirs were held backstage until Part Two) there was a gap of five or so minutes to get all the supernumerary players and singers on; the recording thus doesn't use the plain D major chord to pivot into the Te Deum and retains the slightly more elaborate ending.
* People who are allergic to sopranos need not suffer having their sensitivities inflamed.
* John Curro's interpretation of this part of the symphony is very fine as well: there are numerous moments where he firmly grasps Brian's sound world.
* There is some seriously virtuosic playing from virtually the entire forces through the Vivace that caps the first part of the work, but if there is one stand out, it has to be the bravura xylophone solo played with almost nonchalant precision by an afro-haired percussionist named Matt Brennan, whom Malcolm MacDonald quipped was a "genius": not a word to be thrown about lightly! In tribute the chairman of the Havergal Brian Society John Grimshaw suggested he should be made the next President of the society...
* The recording is excellent and one can only hope for a commercial release (albeit only 4MBS seems to have access to the CD-quality masters for the time being). The BBC Proms performance might prove stiff competition.
* It's not much over half an hour in duration, although it is intense music that takes you by the scruff of the neck and drags you through some very strange places of the imagination. Sceptics who are won over in the process can decide to go on with the Te Deum, which requires a considerably greater outlay of time and daring.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 02:20:28 PM
Your four reasons are heartily endorsed, Philip. As for that afro-haired genius, your vid of the rehearsal where we could see him in action remains unforgotten. GMG member Luke Ottevanger, our most eloquent Brianite, wrote on this thread he could watch him all day!

That transitional passage in the Vivace (which seems to me to be the most visionary transformation of something similarly awe-inspiring in Beethoven's Fifth) remains absolutely incredible, and the Queensland band do it full justice. I can't wait to experience it for myself in London. If I die there and then, what a way to go!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on June 06, 2011, 02:41:19 PM
I added a couple more reasons: I have the very bad habit of always going back and modifying my posts!

I do hope you're not tempting providence, Johan. I will only agree with you in theory: what a way to go!

Oh yes, the Ewe Toob vids: they'll be back eventually; it was unfortunately necessary to take them down at the request of the doco producer. She wanted an embargo on video footage until they've released their documentary and I agreed wholeheartedly with that. I'm glad though that several people here enjoyed it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2011, 03:35:19 PM
If they're the good and deserving sort of sopranos, who could be allergic to them? ; )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on June 06, 2011, 05:12:33 PM
QuoteIf they're the good and deserving sort of sopranos, who could be allergic to them? ; )

One of my Brisbane correspondents was saying that the Proms Gothic following so quickly in the footsteps of the Brisbane performance has its drawbacks... the conversation went this way:

Me: I also had a feeling that the proximity of the Proms Gothic was going to have a devaluating effect on the stocks of the Brisbane performance, particularly the viability of commercial sale of the concert recording. But there's not much Brisbane can do, apart from sabotaging the BBC Proms performance!

B: We could always send them some of our sopranos... >;P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 10:04:01 PM
Quote from: Philip Legge on June 06, 2011, 02:41:19 PM
I added a couple more reasons: I have the very bad habit of always going back and modifying my posts!

I do hope you're not tempting providence, Johan. I will only agree with you in theory: what a way to go!

Oh yes, the Ewe Toob vids: they'll be back eventually; it was unfortunately necessary to take them down at the request of the doco producer. She wanted an embargo on video footage until they've released their documentary and I agreed wholeheartedly with that. I'm glad though that several people here enjoyed it!

Modification is edification.

Yes, it is tempting Fate a bit. Let's change that to 'If I faint...', which Paul Rapoport, the Brian scholar, said he all but did, twice, during a Gothic performance...

I wonder why they didn't consider the 'Ewe Toob vids' as free advertisements. I'll certainly buy the documentary, though the gentleman who plays Brian looks far too affluent and middle class. Brian was in dire straits when he composed his monster score!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 07, 2011, 02:37:24 AM
I can just imagine the Hollywood movie, with Tom Cruise as Havergal Brian, sporting a moustache.
Other glitzy contendors: George Clooney or Tom Hanks!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on June 07, 2011, 02:40:33 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2011, 02:20:28 PM
GMG member Luke Ottevanger, our most eloquent Brianite....
Very flattering indeed, Johan, but clearly and embarrassingly inaccurate! There are many here who speak about Brian with an insight which I certainly can't match and who have a knack of finding the right word and the apposite image which I envy. You are top of that list!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 07, 2011, 02:54:35 AM
O, I know my Brian, and words are my life, Luke. I won't be coy. But you have something I lack - the inside view of a composer. And that is something I - in my turn - envy! You can analyse and experience Brian's nitty-gritty from the inside. And though I can read along in a score and know a few things about harmony and counterpoint, these are things in which I have to defer to the greater expert!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on June 07, 2011, 03:04:56 AM
Well, that is very kind of you. If only there were more scores available, though! I have the Gothic, I have the three you so kindly sent me, I have the Fantastic Variations, I have the piano music. But what I would give to peak (sorry, peek - that was a nicely mountainous, Brainic typo, though!) at the scores to some more of the symphonies - in particular I'm bursting to see certain pages of 3 and 4, of 7 and 9, I think I'd get such a frisson from seeing the exquisite opening of no 12 really there on the page, I'd love to set off into the little-explored mountain ranges (MM's image) of the post 12 works, to see the more fiendish moments of 16 on the page, to clap my eyes on the rarified notes of the later symphonies...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 07, 2011, 03:22:57 AM
I don't have a scanner, yet. But when I have one, I'll scan some of the choice pages for you. I have Nos. 3, 7, 11 and 22. I wonder, though - several members of the HBS are busy using Sibelius to make legible versions of his manuscripts. If you were a member, I'm sure you'd be able to have a look. Especially if you should write something for the Newsletter!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 07, 2011, 03:31:24 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 07, 2011, 02:37:24 AM
I can just imagine the Hollywood movie, with Tom Cruise as Havergal Brian, sporting a moustache.
Other glitzy contendors: George Clooney or Tom Hanks!


Christopher Lee is... Havergal Brian in - The Curse of 'The Gothic'
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 07, 2011, 03:32:00 AM
Quote from: Philip Legge on June 06, 2011, 05:12:33 PM
B: We could always send them some of our sopranos... >;P

Oh, 'owl a bit, do they?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on June 07, 2011, 04:29:35 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 07, 2011, 03:22:57 AM
I don't have a scanner, yet. But when I have one, I'll scan some of the choice pages for you. I have Nos. 3, 7, 11 and 22. I wonder, though - several members of the HBS are busy using Sibelius to make legible versions of his manuscripts. If you were a member, I'm sure you'd be able to have a look. Especially if you should write something for the Newsletter!

I used to be one....does that count?  ;) (always meaning to rejoin, too).

Personally I'd be more than happy to take part in the Sibelius-setting of any Brian scores that wanted it. Would consider it the most enormous privilege, in fact. But I wonder if they'd want to use my skills, such as they are...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 07, 2011, 04:34:32 AM
Quote from: Luke on June 07, 2011, 04:29:35 AM
I used to be one....does that count?  (always meaning to rejoin, too).

Personally I'd be more than happy to take part in the Sibelius-setting of any Brian scores that wanted it. Would consider it the most enormous privilege, in fact. But I wonder if they'd want to use my skills, such as they are...

Of course! You'd be an enormous asset! I could test the waters for you and ask around... But - no rush. I think the HBS Committee is busy preparing for the great day!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 07, 2011, 06:06:43 AM
Christopher Lee. Oh dear,I always remember him as 'Fu Manchu'. Not very pc now. But his motto,'I will return' seems about right for Havergal Brian. When the Prom has finally been and gone I'm pretty sure we'll be hearing more from him. Although a third live performance in a row could be pushing it a bit.
Maybe it'll be the USA next?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on June 07, 2011, 02:36:08 PM
I've sent Luke a private message with the e-mail of the chairman of the Scores subcommittee, to allow him to drop a line if he wishes to do a bit of Brian typesetting.

Quite a number of works have been attempted. The six early orchestral works typeset by Breitkopf are of high quality and don't need new typesetting. The complete piano works were published by the society in a reliable edition in the 1980s. All of the songs and partsongs have been edited by Alan Marshall and Jeremy Marchant and are being gradually released by UMP, so the focus of work is on the orchestral works and operas:

Symphonies: 1 (VS completed, no work on FS), 2 (in progress), 4 (FS nearly complete), 6, 7, 9, 10 (all complete), 16 (nearly complete), 22, 23, 24 (all complete), 32 (in progress)

Orchestral: Ave atque vale, Concerto for orchestra, English suites 3, 4 (all complete)

Opera: Faust: Night-ride (FS complete), Cenci (VS in progress)

Choral-orchestral: By the waters of Babylon (VS complete), Prometheus Unbound: 4 choruses (VS complete)

So to my knowledge (which is almost certainly incomplete!) there are plenty of the symphonies as yet unclaimed, and one of the shorter ones like 12, 17, or 31 would make a good project to get one's teeth into. I myself went for one of the larger works and typeset the Seventh back in 2004–06.

As for purchasing them: the society isn't handling the scores themselves, instead they are print-on-demand works only at UMP.

Cheers, Philip
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on June 07, 2011, 03:08:30 PM
The Gothic Symphony is awesome.  I've paid my penalty. ;D

I also have this album which is not as good, but still worth several listens (which I have done):

[asin]B0008JEKF4[/asin]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 07, 2011, 03:10:45 PM
That's an excellent post, Philip! You have added to my knowledge. Of course, I have read in the Newsletter about the typesetting saga, but the picture was blurred. Now I know what the 'score' is. When I stayed with Alan Marshall he showed me his work on No. 16... That must have been in 1995 (?) I really hope Luke will help out, for his sake and the Society's!


Quote from: DavidW on June 07, 2011, 03:08:30 PM

The Gothic Symphony is awesome.  I've paid my penalty. ;D

I also have this album which is not as good, but still worth several listens (which I have done):
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0008JEKF4.01.L.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0008JEKF4/?tag=goodmusicguideco)


Good man! I agree that neither the Violin Concerto not Symphony No. 18 are as impressive as The Gothic, but the Violin Concerto has its own special beauty, I think...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on June 07, 2011, 03:12:31 PM
Are there any other symphonies that are Gothic like?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 07, 2011, 03:17:54 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 07, 2011, 03:12:31 PM
Are there any other symphonies that are Gothic like?


Well, why not listen to the colourful and impressive Symphonic Movements from his opera The Tigers, which Brian orchestrated after he had finished The Gothic, but which he wrote a few years before starting that work. The movements 3. Gargoyles and 4. Lacryma are a bit Gothic-like.


http://www.mediafire.com/?z017xa0gyay12
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on June 07, 2011, 03:22:03 PM
Listening to the 7th symphony, followed by the 4th may produce a very crude, half-arsed "Gothic" effect as well ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 07, 2011, 03:23:59 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on June 07, 2011, 03:22:03 PM
Listening to the 7th symphony, followed by the 4th may produce a very crude, half-arsed "Gothic" effect as well ;)


The Seventh as Part 1 and the Siegeslied as Part 2... I see what you mean!  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on June 07, 2011, 03:26:54 PM
I feel dirty for even suggesting it :) The 1st can at times seem like a ball and chain - everybody begins with it, and there is then no real successor to turn to - I dread to think how many people have abandoned exploring the composer after discovering this.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 07, 2011, 03:37:23 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on June 07, 2011, 03:26:54 PM
I feel dirty for even suggesting it :) The 1st can at times seem like a ball and chain - everybody begins with it, and there is then no real successor to turn to - I dread to think how many people have abandoned exploring the composer after discovering this.


The Gothic is special. It's like Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings in that it most completely encompasses the whole breadth of an artist's imagination. Are there no successors to that firstling? I don't know. Nos. 2, 3 and 4 certainly have Gothic-like elements. And certain stylistic traits are simply Brianic and can be found everywhere - the use of the brass and the percussion, lightning-quic quick changes of atmosphere, et cetera. But yes - The Gothic is special. Still, there are countless moments in the remaining 31 symphonies and the operas and suites and concertos and songs I wouldn't want to be without. But many of the other works are more demanding. The Gothic carries you along. It's a spectacular.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 07, 2011, 03:42:53 PM
They are rather 'Gothicky' aren't they? 'Gargoyles' in particular,builds up to quite a spectacular climax. The 'Symphonic Variations' which begins in such a jolly pastoral English fashion has a very,dark,sepulchral sounding passage somewhere. The bit where the 'town crier' is singing,Ithink 'Lost from his home,one young man......' *(something like that.I haven't got the libretto to hand). But I think 'Gargoyles' and 'Lacryma' are the one's to listen to first.
This opera is so original and wildly imaginative it's possibly my all time favourite opera. It's tuneful, jammed packed with memorable ideas,chock full of memorable lines and characters,it's got 'Red Indians' ('Native Americans',these days) an Elephant,marching Gargoyles,Wild Horsemen,it's funny, (so many supposedly comic opera's aren't),eccentric,in the best possible way and I think it's one of the best,if not,one of the greatest of all opera's to emerge from our island.
And he wrote this around the same time as he was working on the 'Gothic',didn't he?
Talk about mind boggling!

* Ahem! Not wanting to confuse,I'm referring to the corresponding passage in the 'Prologue' of 'The Tigers',of course.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 07, 2011, 03:55:52 PM
The Gothic and The Tigers show the scope of Brian's mind. The grand and the satirical were in Brian's musical make-up from the beginning. It took the First World War and bitter personal experiences to add the tragic to the mix. Only then did he become a truly great composer, I think.


And now - to bed!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 07, 2011, 03:58:23 PM
Quite! Okay,I'm off too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 03:45:16 AM
I didn't say 'goodnight' for fear that,with all the Users on this forum,we might end up sounding like a cyber version of 'The Waltons'!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on June 08, 2011, 03:54:58 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 07, 2011, 03:37:23 PM

The Gothic is special. It's like Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings in that it most completely encompasses the whole breadth of an artist's imagination.

Ah I see the rest of his symphonic output is Brian's Silmarillion.  Much more challenging with moments as rewarding as the Gothic while not having the easy narrative flow of the Gothic. :) 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2011, 04:00:07 AM
Nice to see you've come aboard the Good Ship Gothic, Davey!  I was a long time walking the plank myself ; )

Think I'll give 'er another spin today!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on June 08, 2011, 04:04:08 AM
It had been along time since I first heard of it.  I think it was either Luke or Chris (weirdears) praising it... time passes... I see Sarge praising it... more time passes... MI praises it, J. D. Herrenberg is all over this thread, I buy the cds... more time passes... I finally go hey! what is this! :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 04:20:55 AM
Which parts 'The Hobbit'?
(Dr Merryheart?)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on June 08, 2011, 04:22:14 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 04:20:55 AM
Which parts 'The Hobbit'?

Well you're the Brian fan... what's the guilty pleasure that is not as serious as the Gothic but you secretly enjoy as much? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2011, 04:23:37 AM
For cilgwyn, I'm guessing . . . General Hospital?

(j/k)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 04:26:58 AM
That's okay,I like hospital food.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 04:27:50 AM
And if anyone brings up Harry Potter,I might be safe in there.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2011, 04:33:37 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 04:26:58 AM
That's okay, I like hospital food.

That may well be the scariest post I've ever read here at GMG . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on June 08, 2011, 04:39:52 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 08, 2011, 04:33:37 AM
That may well be the scariest post I've ever read here at GMG . . . .

That and rat poison is 99% good eats... ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 04:54:04 AM
Wait a minute. They don't do cooked breakfasts anymore?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 04:56:04 AM
If they're going to give me muesli they might as well kill me and serve me up for breakfast.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on June 08, 2011, 04:57:59 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 04:54:04 AM
Wait a minute. They don't do cooked breakfasts anymore?

They're not allowed to use the word breakfast anymore, because it wrongly suggests that they are serving up edible food! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 08, 2011, 05:23:50 AM
I like that 'Hobbit' question (returning to things musical instead of culinary...) You could see everything written up to 'The Tigers' as Brian's 'Hobbit phase' - a period of rather uncomplicated, though original, expression. The First English Suite, Doctor Merryheart, In Memoriam, For Valour, Festal Dance, the Fantastic and the Burlesque Variations - they all show a young composer with a very individual orchestral manner. But they don't prepare you for what happens in 'The Tigers' and 'The Gothic'. And the development after those works is incredible. After the Second World War Brian seems to start afresh, and continues for another 20 years, with 4 operas and 26 symphonies, covering several mini-periods. It was an extroardinary artistic career.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2011, 05:42:10 AM
Indeed!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 07:26:43 AM
I love these Tolkien comparisons. Brian's 'Hobbit Phase'! I wonder if anyone would like to share their thoughts on Britten's 'Narnia phase'?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 08, 2011, 07:31:03 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 07:26:43 AM
I love these Tolkien comparisons. Brian's 'Hobbit Phase'! I wonder if anyone would like to share their thoughts on Britten's 'Narnia phase'?


Haha!


My comparison goes lame (a bit), though. Tolkien's writing of the Silmarillion predated (and postdated) that of both Hobbit and LOTR...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 07:43:03 AM
I'm sorry,I'm afraid I couldn't resist that.
Actually,I think Britten's 'Aslan phase' sounds spicier.
Or what about Vaughan Williams's 'Just William phase'?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 08:29:59 AM
I must admit to liking 'The Hobbit'. I bought the old ISIS audio cassette audio book of Rob Inglis reading the whole book from cover to cover,and very entertaing it is too,especially late in the evening. (Cassettes are still pretty good for that sort of thing). The original ISIS audio books looked very smart. 'The Fellowship of the Ring' with that striking 'eye' design on the cover.
Not too keen on the movies,I'm afraid. ISIS and the old BBC Radio Dramatisations are the one's for me. Not to mention the original books!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 08, 2011, 08:32:04 AM
I like the BBC dramatisations of the Hobbit and LOTR, but Peter Jackson's films, too...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2011, 08:35:00 AM
The Hobbit is an old sentimental favorite, my school librarian suggested the book to me in something like fifth grade.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 08:49:36 AM
I like Tolkien,at his best,but,in my opinion, some of the pretentious twaddle that gets written about his books does them no favours. I recall an article in the Times Literary Supplement not long ago. It reminded me a bit of those seemingly endless programmes on the Beeb,where a load of celebrities are wheeled on in succession,to explain why a particular comedian or situation comedy is funny. Cancellation followed.
But I do like the books. In fact,I'd put those 'Hobbit' tapes on later,(now you've reminded me of them) but I've got the dentist tomorrow! "Gollum!"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 08, 2011, 08:52:57 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 08:49:36 AM
I've got the dentist tomorrow! "Gollum!"


Why do you go? Gollum managed quite well without one. Even bit off Mr Frodo's finger, he did.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 08:55:45 AM
It must have been difficult to find a dentist in the Misty Mountains.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 08, 2011, 08:57:02 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 08:55:45 AM
It must have been difficult to find a dentist in the Misty Mountains.


:D


That's Cameron for you.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 09:52:25 AM
I was just thinking. Probably easier than here.
And I could probably get it done on the National Elf Service.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 08, 2011, 09:53:39 AM
 :D


Never knew you spoke like a Cockney.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 01:58:19 PM
I just read in IRR Magazine the following,in a review of the Dutton cd of off air broadcast recordings of Havergal Brian. The reviewer is Richard Whitehouse.

" Harry Newstone gave some notable (not always for the right reasons) Brian Premieres..."

Not sure exactly what this is supposed to mean. Unless,RW is inferring that Newstone was just performing the music because he knew Brian personally & was only doing it as a friend? (Was Newstone less than convinced by some of Brian's output?)
On the other hand there could be another reason? I seem to remember reading somewhere that Boult himself admitted to being less than enamoured by some,if not all,of Brian's music. Is this true. I may be wrong,but wasn't he president of the HBS,or a Patron,or something?
   Oh and,with regard to Harry Newstone. I have just remembered that I have his performance of the Seventh symphony on a dolby cassette someone gave me. The tape will be at least twenty years old,but I am fairly confident it WILL work. I am going to find it as soon as I have the time (it's in the box room & very aptly in a box,but which one?). Any thoughts on this performance? How does this compare to the Mackerras,I wonder?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 08, 2011, 02:39:04 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 01:58:19 PM
I just read in IRR Magazine the following,in a review of the Dutton cd of off air broadcast recordings of Havergal Brian. The reviewer is Richard Whitehouse.

" Harry Newstone gave some notable (not always for the right reasons) Brian Premieres..."

Not sure exactly what this is supposed to mean. Unless,RW is inferring that Newstone was just performing the music because he knew Brian personally & was only doing it as a friend? (Was Newstone less than convinced by some of Brian's output?)


I know Richard Whitehouse. He is a long-standing member of the HBS, like me, and I met him a few times at Brian concerts. I think he may be referring to the tragic fact that a young conductor, Michael Krein, would have given the premiere of Brian's Seventh Symphony, but suddenly died, so that Harry Newstone had to fill in at short notice.


QuoteOn the other hand there could be another reason? I seem to remember reading somewhere that Boult himself admitted to being less than enamoured by some,if not all,of Brian's music. Is this true. I may be wrong,but wasn't he president of the HBS,or a Patron,or something?


Yes, Boult was a patron of the HBS, and he conducted several Brian premieres. He admired The Gothic.

QuoteOh and,with regard to Harry Newstone. I have just remembered that I have his performance of the Seventh symphony on a dolby cassette someone gave me. The tape will be at least twenty years old,but I am fairly confident it WILL work. I am going to find it as soon as I have the time (it's in the box room & very aptly in a box,but which one?). Any thoughts on this performance? How does this compare to the Mackerras,I wonder?


Newstone's performance is EXCELLENT. I have it on a cassette, too, but don't have a cassette player anymore... Do dig it up. You'll notice that the first movement in his reading is much grander, because his tempi are slower. Mackerras is too light. The other movements are about even.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on June 08, 2011, 02:46:00 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 08, 2011, 08:32:04 AM
I like the BBC dramatisations of the Hobbit and LOTR, but Peter Jackson's films, too...

The films don't capture the atmosphere of the novel, too much emphasis on battle set pieces, not enough on the lore, history and characters (especially the hobbits).  Well Jackson did what it took to make it into a big blockbuster. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 08, 2011, 02:51:08 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 08, 2011, 02:46:00 PM
The films don't capture the atmosphere of the novel, too much emphasis on battle set pieces, not enough on the lore, history and characters (especially the hobbits).  Well Jackson did what it took to make it into a big blockbuster.


Did you see the extended editions? The Two Towers, especially, is about 40 minutes longer (iirc) and gains immeasurably -  the battle at Helm's Deep is not the climax of the film, there is time for much more, which deepens the story, the world and the characters.


But in the final analysis - yes, the books will always be richer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on June 08, 2011, 03:31:26 PM
Yeah I like the extended editions... I wish they were out on blu-ray. :'(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 03:33:54 PM
Thank you for you're detailed reply. It's a bit late to look for the cassette now,but I'm looking forward to listening to it again. I think the glamour of the cd took over for a while,but recently cassettes have made a bit of a come back......here! I seem to remember the opening fanfare was statelier,more regal,perhaps. Also,I think I might have to change ye olde tape side at some point?!!!
Regarding that observation about Boult not being too keen on (some?) Brian. I can't remember who wrote that,but I'm pretty certain he was a music critic (well he would be really!). I also remember that he inferred that Boult was just being kind to Brian by conducting the Gothic.
Well,I must say,if he didn't like the piece too much I think he would have been a bit daft to get roped into something as long and as big as that! 
I have a feeling the critic concerned was just using a spurious story,he may or may not have actually heard,as a way of justifying his own negative attitude towards Brian's music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 10, 2011, 03:27:52 AM
This message board is bonkers. Just like the music of HB. Some quick points while I am pissing by:
1) This month's BBC Music Magazine has an article in it about the Proms and that Gothic thingy you are all obsessed with. Tippett makes an interesting point.
2) Johan, I will download the Brisbane recording. Who's waving the stick and which orchestra is it? I don't know much about Aussie culture other than cricket, Dame Edna, Skippy and Sir Rolf Harris. Oh, and I worked with Malcolm Williamson on one occasion (his 1st piano concerto). Amazed they've done some Brian. They disappoint me.
3) The orchestral leader on the Lord of the Rings films is ex LSSO leader Rolf Wilson (NOT Rolf Harris)
4) There is no point 4.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 10, 2011, 03:32:46 AM
Very droll...  ;D


Here some info on the Brisbane Gothic, cut and pasted from the Unsung Composers forum, where fellow GMG member Albion posted this:


Melissa Gill, sop; Kathleen Lamont, alto; Luke Venables, ten; Dimitri Kopanakis, bass/ The Gothic Symphony Chorus/ The Gothic Symphony Children's Chorus/ The Gothic Symphony Orchestra/ John Curro (Brisbane 22/12/2010, br. Australian 4MBS 4/6/2011)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 10, 2011, 03:43:20 AM
There is NO Rule Six!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 10, 2011, 03:45:30 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 10, 2011, 03:32:46 AM
Very droll...  ;D


Here some info on the Brisbane Gothic, cut and pasted from the Unsung Composers forum, where fellow GMG member Albion posted this:


Melissa Gill, sop; Kathleen Lamont, alto; Luke Venables, ten; Dimitri Kopanakis, bass/ The Gothic Symphony Chorus/ The Gothic Symphony Children's Chorus/ The Gothic Symphony Orchestra/ John Curro (Brisbane 22/12/2010, br. Australian 4MBS 4/6/2011)

Thanks Johan. I will definitely take a listen. I've just been on Amazon to try to buy the10/21 CD and the price is over £100! Still need to hear the Hull recordings - any chance of a link from a certain Hollander??
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 10, 2011, 03:47:14 AM
PS There is no rule 5 either.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 10, 2011, 03:51:59 AM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on June 10, 2011, 03:47:14 AM
PS There is no rule 5 either.

Quote from: Bruce"No pooftahs."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 10, 2011, 03:58:07 AM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on June 10, 2011, 03:45:30 AM
Thanks Johan. I will definitely take a listen. I've just been on Amazon to try to buy the10/21 CD and the price is over £100! Still need to hear the Hull recordings - any chance of a link from a certain Hollander??


I only have a few files, not all the recordings. Am in a hurry...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 10, 2011, 06:11:12 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 10, 2011, 03:58:07 AM

I only have a few files, not all the recordings. Am in a hurry...
In a hurry to do what? Novel writing perhaps?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 10, 2011, 07:32:30 AM
I've just listened to bits and bobs from the Brisbane Gothic. You know, whether or not you think the music is good, bad or indifferent (I'm firmly in the indifferent camp) you simply have to applaud the fact that the performers took on such a huge task and actually pulled it off live. It's a tremendous achievement. Those taking part in Brisbane will never forget the experience. By the way, is it just me or is the very end of the work chopped off in Johan's link? It's a shame. By the way, what's the chance of the BBC Music Magazine offering the Proms Gothic performance as a free cover mount disc, either as a double CD or a DVD? Why doesn't the HBS lobby for this? It would immediately expose new people to Brian's work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 11, 2011, 01:40:11 AM
That would be some compensation for not televising it. Even I'd buy a copy.
(Incidentally,I have noticed that some of those cover cd's end up on Amazon & on my local s/h market stall).
As regards 'lobbying'. I'm not a member,but from what I know of the HBS,they've been lobbying like billy-o for a couple of decades & ,I may be mistaken,but I believe they are currently trying to get someone to release a cd of the event? Chandos would be ideal,but for some reason they just don't seem to like Brian much? Maybe,they can be persuaded to change their mind. (Call me a cynic,but in my humble opinion,some of their recent premiere recordings of long neglected works would have been better off left rotting in the box!)
I wonder who else could be persuaded?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 11, 2011, 10:19:31 AM
Good news on the HB front! Just noticed on the Havergal Brian Society website,now! The Marco Polo cd of Symphonies 20,25 & the Fantastic Variations is being reissued on the Naxos budget label on the 27th of June.

PS: WHOOOOOOOOOPEEE!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 11, 2011, 10:33:35 AM
Sorry, everyone, for my absence. Life is intervening quite imperiously, so I have to go AWOL some more.

Yes, good news, that re-issue of 20 & 25! It is one of the better Naxos discs. The last time I listened, No. 20 impressed and moved me very much.

'Bye for now!'
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on June 11, 2011, 10:36:51 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 08, 2011, 01:58:19 PM
I just read in IRR Magazine the following,in a review of the Dutton cd of off air broadcast recordings of Havergal Brian. The reviewer is Richard Whitehouse.

" Harry Newstone gave some notable (not always for the right reasons) Brian Premieres..."

Not sure exactly what this is supposed to mean.


He's no doubt referring to the premiere of the symphony no.30 (New Philharmonia, conducted by Newstone, 24.9.76) which went hopelessly wrong in one passage and nearly came apart.  The off-air recording, in the HBS library, clearly picks up Newstone's desperate spoken attempts to get it all back together again, while most of the orchestra sits in appalled silence.
DF
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 11, 2011, 10:46:39 AM
Thanks! Yes, that must be it. I think I know the passage in question -  second movement, that shadowy Misterioso passage...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 11, 2011, 10:57:24 AM
Thank you Dave. Poor Mr Newstone. (That performance won't be up for a cd release,any time soon then!). I was intrigued by that comment (in the IRR).
They must be difficult to get right.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on June 12, 2011, 12:50:22 PM
Also new on Naxos this month: a "21st anniversary" edition of the Marco Polo Gothic, with a new slipcase, timed to coincide with the Proms performance.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 12, 2011, 12:52:04 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2011, 12:50:22 PM
Also new on Naxos this month: a "21st anniversary" edition of the Marco Polo Gothic, with a new slipcase, timed to coincide with the Proms performance.


Very good! Thank you, Brian (Reinhart, that is). But - 21 years...  :o  Time flies!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on June 12, 2011, 12:55:07 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 12, 2011, 12:52:04 PM

Very good! Thank you, Brian (Reinhart, that is). But - 21 years...  :o  Time flies!

That recording is my age.  :o
Correction: I was born between the recording sessions for Part I and Part II.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 12, 2011, 12:56:42 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2011, 12:55:07 PM
That recording is my age.  :o
Correction: I was born between the recording sessions for Part I and Part II.


Then you ought to enter the RAH on 17th July between the Vivace and the Te Deum laudamus (if they let you).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on June 12, 2011, 01:34:51 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 12, 2011, 12:56:42 PM

Then you ought to enter the RAH on 17th July between the Vivace and the Te Deum laudamus (if they let you).

Psh, like I'd miss a single minute!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 12, 2011, 01:38:08 PM
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2011, 01:34:51 PM
Psh, like I'd miss a single minute!


That's more like it! Though after the incredible Vivace, you might be so stunned as to be unable to take anything new in for a few minutes...  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 12, 2011, 01:54:19 PM
Just had a look at the new edition of the Naxos 'Gothic'. Ooooh1 Very smart & appropriately 'Gothic'. It just shows how important that release is in the Naxos back catalogue. And,let's not forget,(HBS fans haven't!) it was a hugely important milestone in the history of that symphony,whether you like the performance/recording or not.and even IF miserable gits like me aren't grateful for it.
There are allot of very satisfied customers out there who might not have heard the symphony if it hadn't been offered at Naxos's super budget label price. Music loving cd buyers who may well have moved onto the Testament release of Boult's performance,who may buy the Brisbane performance if it hits cd,and may even have bought tickets for the forthcoming Prom.

NB: On reflection,I AM grateful!

NB2: Not to be churlish,but one day I hope they will release MY favourite
       performance,on cd,the Ole Schmidt!

NB3: By that time my favourite could be the Brisbane or the Prom 2011,if it's
       released on cd.......or,another performance?!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 12, 2011, 01:58:49 PM
I'll turn 50 in a few minutes' time. Nice to announce it on the thread of the composer I feel the most affinity with.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on June 12, 2011, 01:59:37 PM
Happy Birthday!! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 12, 2011, 02:03:29 PM
Happy Birthday. Here's to the next Fifty,eh?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 12, 2011, 02:04:19 PM
Quote from: DavidW on June 12, 2011, 01:59:37 PM
Happy Birthday!! :)


Gracias!


Quote from: cilgwyn on June 12, 2011, 02:03:29 PM
Happy Birthday. Here's to the next Fifty,eh?


Of course! Thank you!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 12, 2011, 02:26:59 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 12, 2011, 01:58:49 PM
I'll turn 50 in a few minutes' time. Nice to announce it on the thread of the composer I feel the most affinity with.

Welcome to the club Johan!

Happy Birthday from us all over here.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 12, 2011, 02:31:23 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 12, 2011, 02:26:59 PM
Welcome to the club Johan!

Happy Birthday from us all over here.


Thanks, Jeffrey! It's good to know some intrepid souls went before and lived to tell the tale!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on June 12, 2011, 02:52:19 PM
Make it a nice day for yourself! :) (If you have subconscious junk food cravings, now is the time!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 12, 2011, 02:55:54 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on June 12, 2011, 02:52:19 PM
Make it a nice day for yourself! :) (If you have subconscious junk food cravings, now is the time!)


I am taking my daughter Dunya  (11) to the pictures, a Dutch film with horses and romance. I think I'll survive. I like it when she is enjoying herself...  :) As to my cravings, I just ate some crisps...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on June 12, 2011, 03:06:31 PM
Happy Birthday, Johan!  :)  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on June 12, 2011, 03:11:54 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 12, 2011, 02:55:54 PM
I am taking my daughter Dunya  (11) to the pictures, a Dutch film with horses and romance.

Oh lord. Play Brian's 6th afterwards, balance must be maintained! Happy birthday btw :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 12, 2011, 03:15:15 PM
Quote from: Luke on June 12, 2011, 03:06:31 PM
Happy Birthday, Johan!  :) :)


Thanks, Luke!


Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on June 12, 2011, 03:11:54 PM
Oh lord. Play Brian's 6th afterwards, balance must be maintained! Happy birthday btw :)


:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 13, 2011, 11:39:05 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 12, 2011, 02:55:54 PM

I am taking my daughter Dunya  (11) to the pictures, a Dutch film with horses and romance. I think I'll survive. I like it when she is enjoying herself...  :) As to my cravings, I just ate some crisps...

Sounds like a nice way to celebrate your birthday - hope it went well.  Did the film have a soundtrack by Havergal Brian?  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 13, 2011, 11:45:47 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 13, 2011, 11:39:05 PM
Sounds like a nice way to celebrate your birthday - hope it went well.  Did the film have a soundtrack by Havergal Brian?  ;D


As you can see, though I passed through the valley of cultural death, I am still amongst the living... The completely Brianless (or brainless) soundtrack consisted of soppy love songs... What we do for our children. Fortunately, even Dunya could see through some of the ludicrousness and we had some muffled chuckles. She is going a second time, though - with her mother!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 14, 2011, 02:53:47 AM
Thank god for 'The Wizard of Oz'!

NB: The Munchkins were a bit of a pain. Oh,and 'Glenda the glutinous good'.


Maybe,I need a time machine. Mind you,it COULD have been worse. My mum got taken to Shirley Temple films,AND she liked them!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 14, 2011, 04:01:29 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 14, 2011, 02:53:47 AM
. . . My mum got taken to Shirley Temple films,AND she liked them!

Behold, I shew you a mystery; they actually made those movies, to the end that the audience should like them!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 14, 2011, 07:21:22 AM
Any other Shirley Temple fans here?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 20, 2011, 05:45:29 AM
The first of three tickets has arrived today! It's for my friend Michiel Schuijer (try prononouncing that!) Someone has written something on an accompanying note:


The original seat you booked will be obscured by a BBC TV camera, so you have been upgraded to an elevated view.


I hope they use it on the night!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on June 20, 2011, 05:46:55 AM
Johan, I long ago gave up trying to pronounce Dutch!

However, should I ever visit, I'll give it a better try.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on June 20, 2011, 07:10:49 AM
Having nothing better to do and having my interest piqued by an article about HB's working class background, I embarked on an attempt to trace his family tree. There is no ready made tree that I can find on the internet but there is no point in repeating work already done, does anyone know of such a tree?

I also know that Kenneth Eastaugh's biography went into some detail about HB's immediate ancestors; could some kind person out there scan the relevant pages of that book and send them to me? I am back to the late 1700s on two branches and want to check them.

HB's, unsuccessful, attempts to gain a pension from the British Army after WW1 are now on line as are his abodes in the four censuses, 1881-1911. His immediate ancestors are traceable in the censuses back to 1841, one of whom was an engineer and another a saggar maker's bottom knocker; look it up.




Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2011, 07:11:34 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 20, 2011, 05:45:29 AM
The original seat you booked will be obscured by a BBC TV camera, so you have been upgraded to an elevated view.

Someone is going to be hoisted by a crane?

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2011, 07:13:51 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on June 20, 2011, 07:10:49 AM....one of whom was an engineer and another a sagger maker's bottom knocker; look it up.

I'm afraid to. Some things should remain unexamined.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on June 20, 2011, 07:20:29 AM
Indeed :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on June 20, 2011, 07:24:58 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2011, 07:13:51 AM
I'm afraid to. Some saggy bottoms should remain unknocked.

Fixed
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2011, 07:27:14 AM
Quote from: Brian on June 20, 2011, 07:24:58 AM
Fixed

;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on June 20, 2011, 08:01:32 AM
It's not evey day that I type that particular phrase out. Bloody Freud and his slips. :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on June 20, 2011, 08:24:19 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 20, 2011, 05:45:29 AM
my friend Michiel Schuijer (try prononouncing that!)

No!!! This is even harder than the "Name That Tune" competition!  But I'm going to take a wild guess: is it "Mikki-ell"?

Dutch names are wonderfully "different", aren't they? (says the man from the nation where men are called Ieuan, Iestyn, Pwyll, Iorwerth, Rhûn etc.)  Considering that Dutch and English are supposed to be the closest living relations, personal names seem to have diverged in late Neolithic times.  I have an old Leonhardt set of the Brandenburgs, which lists the performers on the back as follows:

...
Anner Bylsma
Wieland Kuijken
Frans Bruggen
Ab Koster
Bob van Asperen
And Others

I thought And was such a brilliant exponent of the natural horn that I spent years trawling record shops for any of his other recordings...

Belated birthday wishes, by the way, Johan - welcome to your second childhood.

DF
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 20, 2011, 08:35:50 AM
Quote from: DaveF on June 20, 2011, 08:24:19 AM
No!!! This is even harder than the "Name That Tune" competition!  But I'm going to take a wild guess: is it "Mikki-ell"?

Dutch names are wonderfully "different", aren't they? (says the man from the nation where men are called Ieuan, Iestyn, Pwyll, Iorwerth, Rhûn etc.)  Considering that Dutch and English are supposed to be the closest living relations, personal names seem to have diverged in late Neolithic times.  I have an old Leonhardt set of the Brandenburgs, which lists the performers on the back as follows:

...
Anner Bylsma
Wieland Kuijken
Frans Bruggen
Ab Koster
Bob van Asperen
And Others

I thought And was such a brilliant exponent of the natural horn that I spent years trawling record shops for any of his other recordings...

Belated birthday wishes, by the way, Johan - welcome to your second childhood.

DF


Thanks for your birthday wishes - yes, I am getting younger by the day!


Michiel isn't as difficult to pronounce, I think - Mi = Me and iel = eel and the ch in the middle is the same as in the German 'ich'. So it's Mecheel... I'll give Schuijer a pass...

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 20, 2011, 07:11:34 AM
Someone is going to be hoisted by a crane?


:D


Quote from: Hattoff on June 20, 2011, 07:10:49 AM
Having nothing better to do and having my interest piqued by an article about HB's working class background, I embarked on an attempt to trace his family tree. There is no ready made tree that I can find on the internet but there is no point in repeating work already done, does anyone know of such a tree?

I also know that Kenneth Eastaugh's biography went into some detail about HB's immediate ancestors; could some kind person out there scan the relevant pages of that book and send them to me? I am back to the late 1700s on two branches and want to check them.

HB's, unsuccessful, attempts to gain a pension from the British Army after WW1 are now on line as are his abodes in the four censuses, 1881-1911. His immediate ancestors are traceable in the censuses back to 1841, one of whom was an engineer and another a saggar maker's bottom knocker; look it up.


I'm afraid I don't have Eastaugh to hand, and neither do I have a scanner. I could borrow the book when I am in The Hague (Royal Library) and have a look to see what information he has to offer...


As for those saggy bottoms, I am certain Brian inherited something of the trauma of his forebear - whose orchestral 'lower regions' are more rock-solid than Brian's, the 'master of the meaningful bass' (Malcolm MacDonald)?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 20, 2011, 08:40:07 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 20, 2011, 05:46:55 AM
Johan, I long ago gave up trying to pronounce Dutch!

However, should I ever visit, I'll give it a better try.


I count on it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on June 20, 2011, 10:23:55 AM
Hi Johan,
I was hoping you would reply. I know you are busy at the moment  so don't worry about finding Eastaugh's biography. I shall get a second hand copy, I did have it, but foolishly lent it to someone :'(

I read that HB would wickedly use fifths in the organ's bass to increase the effect, it makes sense, now.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 20, 2011, 10:28:58 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on June 20, 2011, 10:23:55 AM
Hi Johan,
I was hoping you would reply. I know you are busy at the moment  so don't worry about finding Eastaugh's biography. I shall get a second hand copy, I did have it, but foolishly lent it to someone :'(

I read that HB would wickedly use fifths in the organ's bass to increase the effect, it makes sense, now.


Well, let's see who gets to his copy first... As for those 'wicked fifths' - another sign of ancestral influence.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on June 22, 2011, 08:31:10 PM
Brian fans rejoice! If you've missed this original Marco Polo the first time around now you can buy it in its Naxos incarnation. This CD comes out in late July:

[asin]B0052FG8D6[/asin]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 22, 2011, 10:25:58 PM
Thanks, John. I don't think the timing of this reissue is unconnected to the 'Gothic' performance on July 17th.... Symphony No. 20 I consider to be the best thing on this CD. It's a spacious and, especially in its slow movement, moving piece. No. 25 isn't weak, either. The Fantastic Variations are an early work, and very enjoyable. The theme is Three Blind Mice...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on June 23, 2011, 07:58:12 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 22, 2011, 10:25:58 PM
Thanks, John. I don't think the timing of this reissue is unconnected to the 'Gothic' performance on July 17th.... Symphony No. 20 I consider to be the best thing on this CD. It's a spacious and, especially in its slow movement, moving piece. No. 25 isn't weak, either. The Fantastic Variations are an early work, and very enjoyable. The theme is Three Blind Mice...

Well I can't wait to hear it, Johan. I missed the original on Marco Polo and the price never seemed right to me when it went out-of-print.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 25, 2011, 12:27:08 AM
Someone wrote the following at the Unsung Composers Forum:


Re the 4MBS recording of the Havergal Brian Gothic Symphony from Johan.

I hate to say this but unless my ears are playing me tricks, the left and right channels are reversed. I have only downloaded Part 1 from Folder 4, but this MP3 does appear to be reversed. At the concert, the 3 harps were hard left with the horns and the brass/tubas were hard right.Anyone downloading may wish to convert to WAV and reverse the channels for best playback.


I checked, and he is right... (No problem for a Mirror Image, though...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on June 25, 2011, 01:16:35 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 25, 2011, 12:27:08 AM(No problem for a Mirror Image, though...)
(http://www.wnff.net/Smileys/wnff/rimshot.gif)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 26, 2011, 12:35:09 AM
Here is a fascinating article about the mechanics of recording the Brisbane Gothic:


https://sites.google.com/site/recordingmaninoz/recordingthegothic (https://sites.google.com/site/recordingmaninoz/recordingthegothic)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Tapio Dimitriyevich Shostakovich on June 27, 2011, 12:31:45 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 22, 2011, 08:31:10 PMBrian fans rejoice! If you've missed this original Marco Polo the first time around now you can buy it in its Naxos incarnation. This CD comes out in late July:
Is the Naxos "Gothic" the same as the Marco Polo?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 27, 2011, 12:34:06 PM
Quote from: Tapio Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on June 27, 2011, 12:31:45 PM
Is the Naxos "Gothic" the same as the Marco Polo?


Yes. Though I read somewhere that the sound was slightly improved (which I can't confirm, as I only have the Marco Polo).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 01, 2011, 06:37:28 AM
I just bought the Naxos 20/25/Fantastic Variations. Very decent playing and recording and worth 6 quid. Andrew Penny is a good pro. Not sure about the music (don't shoot me Johan) and the general standard of string writing but Symphony 20 strikes me as being the best piece on the CD.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 13, 2011, 10:31:08 PM
I am preparing for the Brianic onslaught on Sunday... Here are two links, one to a Guardian article (not wholly correct), and the other to a review of The Gothic (two mistakes there: Brian sets the Te Deum, and Brahms was 44 when he finished his First).


http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/jul/13/gothic-symphony-havergal-brian-proms?INTCMP=SRCH


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/July11/Brian_Gothic_855741819.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2011, 01:00:57 AM
On Twitter a violinist (breakastring) writes: "To rehearse at All Nations - the largest flat floor space in Cardiff. Two symphony orchestras and four brass bands! Haven't even added choirs and soloists yet! What was Havergal Brian thinking?! Ideas on the correct collective noun for a large group of musicians? A plague? An implosion? An explosion?..."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 14, 2011, 01:02:50 AM
Should we perhaps have a separate thread to coordinate any relevant meet-ups, pub gatherings, etc.?

I read the MusicWeb article last night and thought, "Requiem? Really?" Alas, that's a poor mistake to make. :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2011, 01:09:07 AM
Why not use this thread, it's completely apposite and legitimate...

Well, Jeffrey (vandermolen) has already suggested we should repair to the Queens Arms, 30 Queens Gate Mews afterwards. I know that members of the HBS will be there during the day, inbetween the dress rehearsal and other activities. I have asked the Chairman whether the same applies post-concert... I'll be flying into London around 4 o'clock PM, if all goes according to plan and Icelandic volcanoes stay civilized...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 14, 2011, 01:22:12 AM
A'ight. Looking forward.

I suppose what I really want to say here is: Luke, since we've got weekend passes, are you going to any of the other three proms there? I'll certainly be at the Glagolitic Mass tomorrow.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 14, 2011, 03:58:43 AM
Meanwhile,this 'homebody' has actually spent £159.00 on.......wait for it......... a dolby Pioneer cassette deck,EXPRESSLY for the purpose of recording the Proms performance of the 'Gothic'. I can't wait for the bit where I have to turn over the cassette,it'll be like the good old days! Although,some people here might think the opposite.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 14, 2011, 04:09:05 AM
Wow! What kind of playback quality can you get on a cassette deck like that, though? Not the world's best, one imagines, but listenable? And I encourage you to do a test run or two to make certain it works. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2011, 04:15:53 AM
I remember I often bought TDK and Maxell cassettes with a playing time of 120 minutes. Do they still sell them?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 14, 2011, 04:33:46 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 14, 2011, 04:09:05 AM
Wow! What kind of playback quality can you get on a cassette deck like that, though? Not the world's best, one imagines, but listenable? And I encourage you to do a test run or two to make certain it works. :)

If you had a good deck the quality could be remarkable. I bought a Nakamichi Dragon in the mid 80s. It cost $1600 in the PX (that's equivalent to $3200 today). It was (is) an amazing machine.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 14, 2011, 04:49:00 AM
Thank you for you're polite reply Brian. I was expecting to be called an idiot. The truth is,there are very few cassette decks on the market now & no single cassette decks,unless you can count that Teac thingummy with a built in cd player! Also,my budget isn't that high & I am extremely reluctant to spend much on a new cassette deck in this day and age. On the plus side this will be (quite!) state of the art compared to my previous cassette players,all of which lasted several years (one's still going) and would have impressed Fred Flinstone but probably not Wilma!
(Oh yes,Nakamichi. Tales are still told around firesides about those machines).
At least they still manufacture cassette tapes,JZH.  Let's hope it doesn't chew too many up!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 14, 2011, 08:34:56 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 14, 2011, 01:22:12 AM
A'ight. Looking forward.

I suppose what I really want to say here is: Luke, since we've got weekend passes, are you going to any of the other three proms there? I'll certainly be at the Glagolitic Mass tomorrow.

If only I could! The pass arrived at the end of last week, just as I was starting to worry! So I will be there for the Gothic, but not able to make any of the others. And yes, obviously, the one I would want to go to would be the Glagolitic.

I'm trying to work out the best way for me to get down and back - no chance of me staying back afterwards, more's the pity. I've just booked a space in the car park, just in case that turns out to be the best way.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 14, 2011, 08:58:40 AM
Thank you for diverting the thread away from my lo fi equipment. Anyone else impressed by my bargain deck?
Talking about pubs. I just came back from one. I got the impression they could keep sinking the old pints until daybreak without ill effect. Some of them smaller than me,older than me &,alarmingly, women! And me? Acid indigestion and feeling like I'm on my deathbed! I decided to chicken out,very reluctantly,by the way (they had the dubliners on the jukebox. A bit different from Havergal Brian,I know!)
By the way,aplogies for not replying to your message,Johan,if I may call you that.Quite frankly,I will have to think about that one. I hope you enjoy THE concert of the century.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2011, 10:55:37 AM
Of course I'm Johan, Cilgwyn...

I'm doing nothing but listen to The Gothic at the moment. It will be an almost unreal experience, sitting there in the Albert Hall. My (twin) sister is coming, too. I let her listen to the stupendous build-up and climax of the Vivace and the overwhelming cataclysm of the Judex. She just sat shaking her head, cursed, then burst out laughing - the music is so extraordinarily powerful. I thought she would support me during the performance, now I think she'll be needing a stretcher, too!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on July 14, 2011, 01:01:08 PM
Hope to see a few of you in the Queen's afterwards, although if this one affects me as much as some other great Proms from past years (Bernstein's Mahler 5, Abbado's Beethoven 9) I may be scarcely coherent.  Just been reminding myself of the last movement in Schmidt's performance - phew.

Certainly impressed by your commitment, Cilgwyn - for me it'll be streaming it from iPlayer into a freebie sound recorder in glorious 128k sound, and hoping that a repeat is broadcast (I'm sure the BBC's fees to performers used to include one repeat), when I will try to grab it in 320k.

DF
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2011, 01:08:57 PM
It is I, Herrenberg (for people who don't know me personally)...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2011, 02:25:56 PM
Martyn Brabbins on The Gothic. Start the iPlayer. It starts around 1 hour 9 minutes.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006tp0c (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006tp0c)


[There is music by a Finnish composer 'interrupting' the interview, which continues with HB at 1:14:35]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 14, 2011, 07:12:12 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2011, 10:55:37 AMI'm doing nothing but listen to The Gothic at the moment. It will be an almost unreal experience, sitting there in the Albert Hall. My (twin) sister is coming, too. I let her listen to the stupendous build-up and climax of the Vivace and the overwhelming cataclysm of the Judex. She just sat shaking her head, cursed, then burst out laughing - the music is so extraordinarily powerful. I thought she would support me during the performance, now I think she'll be needing a stretcher, too!

This is great to read, Johan. It's always a wonderful thing to share music with someone else and for your sister to have the reaction to Brian's Gothic is a testament to the power of this music. It may be a lesser-heard work, but I think, hopefully, after tonight, it will ignite some interest in this composer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 14, 2011, 10:24:47 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 14, 2011, 01:02:50 AM
Should we perhaps have a separate thread to coordinate any relevant meet-ups, pub gatherings, etc.?

I read the MusicWeb article last night and thought, "Requiem? Really?" Alas, that's a poor mistake to make. :(

I mentioned the mistake to Rob (Te Deum not Requiem) and he will correct it. Generally I think that he writes excellent reviews - and does lots of them so I guess that the occasional mistake is inevitable.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 14, 2011, 10:31:41 PM
Assuming I get into the Gothic Prom I intend to go to the pub afterwards - I shall just set my satnav to 'group of nutters' and hope to meet as many of you as possible. I will recognise Johan, whom I have had the great pleasure of meeting. Seriously, it would be very nice to see anyone from this forum on Sunday.  If I can't get in I will let Johan know - we've arranged to have a loud mobile phone conversation during one of the quieter passages in the Te Deum  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2011, 10:37:54 PM
I always enjoy Rob Barnett's reviews, so I won't think he's structurally stupid...

You'll be certain to see Colin (Dundonnell), we happen to be sitting side by side, he flanked by his nephew and I by my sister! He can't escape.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 15, 2011, 12:07:34 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2011, 10:37:54 PM
I always enjoy Rob Barnett's reviews, so I won't think he's structurally stupid...

You'll be certain to see Colin (Dundonnell), we happen to be sitting side by side, he flanked by his nephew and I by my sister! He can't escape.

I'll take my binoculars - yes, will be nice to see Colin too.  All going well I'll be with my brother.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 15, 2011, 03:36:33 AM
So how many of us will be there, then? Is this going to be the largest ever group of GMGers in one place?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 15, 2011, 03:46:46 AM
Seven in all, if I'm not mistaken: Albion, Brian, DaveF, Dundonnell, J. Z. Herrenberg, Luke, vandermolen...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 15, 2011, 03:52:39 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 15, 2011, 03:46:46 AM
Seven in all, if I'm not mistaken: Albion, Brian, DaveF, Dundonnell, J. Z. Herrenberg, Luke, vandermolen...

I'm trying really hard not to be depressed. I really wanted to be there with you guys. But as I feared I'm still not feeling fit enough to travel. I'll be with you in spirit anyway.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 15, 2011, 03:54:55 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 15, 2011, 03:52:39 AM
I'm trying really hard not to be depressed. I really wanted to be there with you guys. But as I feared I'm still not feeling fit enough to travel. I'll be with you in spirit anyway.


I am also very sorry you won't be there, Sarge.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Wanderer on July 15, 2011, 08:41:03 AM
Hope you have a great time, guys! As for me, I'll be at the ready to pre-order the recording.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on July 15, 2011, 09:30:26 AM
It's a once in a lifetime. I am reminded of Henry V. They shall feel accursed, those who were not here on St Crispin's day. Or something similarish.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 15, 2011, 09:51:55 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on July 15, 2011, 09:30:26 AM
It's a once in a lifetime. I am reminded of Henry V. They shall feel accursed, those who were not here on St Crispin's day. Or something similarish.

And gentlemen in Germany now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That heard with us the Gothic Symphony.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 16, 2011, 01:25:27 AM
I have a cunning plan. I assume that I can access the Gothic performance live online on radio 3? If so I can record it using Audacity, save it as a huge wav file and then split it into tracks later and burn to CDs and share it via Mediafire. Assuming the internet doesn't crash I will have a good recording. This should work, shouldn't it? If a few people do this we should get something worth keeping between us.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 16, 2011, 03:02:21 AM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on July 16, 2011, 01:25:27 AM
I have a cunning plan. I assume that I can access the Gothic performance live online on radio 3? If so I can record it using Audacity, save it as a huge wav file and then split it into tracks later and burn to CDs and share it via Mediafire. Assuming the internet doesn't crash I will have a good recording. This should work, shouldn't it? If a few people do this we should get something worth keeping between us.

It absolutely should work. All the Proms are on radio 3, and I presume you can listen to the radio online...?
You might want to try it first, because I know my computer's copy of Audacity refuses to record stuff like that for some reason. Apparently some new computers disable the feature because they're afraid of people stealing songs and videos, like from YouTube.  :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 16, 2011, 03:40:39 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 16, 2011, 03:02:21 AM
It absolutely should work. All the Proms are on radio 3, and I presume you can listen to the radio online...?
You might want to try it first, because I know my computer's copy of Audacity refuses to record stuff like that for some reason. Apparently some new computers disable the feature because they're afraid of people stealing songs and videos, like from YouTube.  :(

I tried it with this morning's Radio 3 record review online and it worked fine. I will also try some of tonight's prom to see if I'm allowed access.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 16, 2011, 09:25:44 AM
I will be inserting my c90 cassette(s) into my cassette deck and pressing record!!!!
Unfortunately the big fm stereo radio aerial I ordered & intend to place in the attic didn't arrive until the beginning of the week. The entrance to the attic is a great size if you're a dwarf or midget. I find that if I wriggle through,an arm at a time,I can get through to the loft space which is thankfully allot bigger. Fortunately,with the help of a booster the reception appears pretty good,at least at the moment.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 16, 2011, 09:28:53 AM
Good luck, cilgwyn! I am gearing up for the Big One. Tomorrow around this time I'll be making my way to my seat (God willing!) Unbelievable...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 16, 2011, 09:36:50 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 16, 2011, 09:28:53 AM
Good luck, cilgwyn! I am gearing up for the Big One. Tomorrow around this time I'll be making my way to my seat (God willing!) Unbelievable...

Tomorrow by this point (again inshallah) I (and perhaps Luke) shall be claiming our spots on the arena floor...! That reminds me, I need to PM him.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 16, 2011, 09:40:07 AM
I hope you have as wonderful time as I will using a cassette deck to record the concert in 2011!!!! I am pretty sure you will have allot of stories to tell us about you're experience and you're response to this mighty work will certainly be changed forever.
(That edit's better!)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 16, 2011, 09:44:36 AM
Thanks, cilgwyn. I and others will be reporting back when the shock has subsided... I am certain Brian's reputation will be enhanced by this performance.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 16, 2011, 09:52:53 AM
I'm sure it will. There may be one or two curmugeon's however. Hopefully,they will be outnumbered. I remember when the Marco Polo of the Gothic came out,most of the reviews were enthusiastic. But there was one horrible review from Edward Seckerson or Edward Greenfield (I always mix them up) which referred to that amusing character actor, Vincent Price.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 16, 2011, 09:55:05 AM
Luke, your PM box is full!
So here's the message I wanted to send  ;D :

Hello Luke,
Prommed last night at 'Glagolitic' and it went very smoothly. From South Kensington tube up to the main (south) entrance of Royal Albert Hall, join the queue on the right, which is the season pass queue. When I went yesterday, the line began to move and people began to enter about 40 minutes before the beginning of the concert. I arrived right at this time and got a fairly decent standing spot just forward of the middle of the arena. However, this time I might come - the concert starts at 7pm I believe - at 6pm armed with a sandwich and a Chandler novel.

The floor is not exactly luxurious so I'd advise comfortable shoes over formal ones. We won't have an interval so no worry about people sneaking forward when half the crowd pops out to the loo...

That's all I can think of now, but write back if there's anything else. Water isn't to be taken inside, so simply hide it in your jacket.  :D

I aspire to be there at 6 and to look like this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2112.msg516806.html#msg516806) - very excited to hear this symphony at last!

Cheers
~ Brian
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 16, 2011, 09:58:48 AM
It's a sell-out and people are curious... But it's certain you'll get in with that pass? Otherwise you probably should come earlier.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 16, 2011, 10:09:24 AM
I just tried Audacity to record tonight's Prom. Got the settings sorted out. Worked perfectly. Assuming the internet connection behaves I will capture tomorrow's event. I admire the tenacity of Brianites so enjoy this stupendous 2 hours of glory. It doesn't get bigger than the Proms. A superb platform to hear the man's work. Brian would be a lttle bit pleased but nothing more than that - he was a very laid back person who wrote music because he wanted to. What a great attitude. Shame that Bob Simpson isn't here to witnes the event.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 16, 2011, 10:14:20 AM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on July 16, 2011, 10:09:24 AM
I just tried Audacity to record tonight's Prom. Got the settings sorted out. Worked perfectly. Assuming the internet connection behaves I will capture tomorrow's event. I admire the tenacity of Brianites so enjoy this stupendous 2 hours of glory. It doesn't get bigger than the Proms. A superb platform to hear the man's work. Brian would be a lttle bit pleased but nothing more than that - he was a very laid back person who wrote music because he wanted to. What a great attitude. Shame that Bob Simpson isn't here to witnes the event.


Shame indeed... But he had his moment of triumph when he made the Boult Gothic happen, in 1966. And the Ole Schmidt performance of 1980 is also unthinkable without Robert Simpson.


The persons we must be rooting for are, in the first place, Martyn Brabbins, and then that whole mass of humanity he has to shepherd safely through this monstrous work!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 16, 2011, 10:19:55 AM
Bob also made his mark with Unicorn in 1972 of course ably assisted by his engineer Angus McKenzie. What time are you leaving Schipol? I hope the Gods are with you.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 16, 2011, 10:27:42 AM
Don't mention them...  :o My sister and I will be at London City Airport (hopefully) around 4:20 PM...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 16, 2011, 10:33:53 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 16, 2011, 09:58:48 AM
It's a sell-out and people are curious... But it's certain you'll get in with that pass? Otherwise you probably should come earlier.

It's certain. The "season ticket pass" line goes in first and then the day pass people go in afterwards. I arrived at 6:50 for 7:30 and had no trouble, but I do want to arrive earlier tomorrow.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 16, 2011, 11:34:27 AM
I've spoken to some of my friends who are playing in the Gothic tomorrow. Good feedback and high expectations. With 1,000 people taking part and 2 hours of music to get through there are sure to be a few slips but this could just be epic. I really hope so. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 16, 2011, 02:54:22 PM
WARNING for Day-Prommers - I just read on Twitter that there are limited places in the Arena due to the placing of the choruses. BE THERE IN TIME, as the season ticket holders get in first.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: listener on July 17, 2011, 12:06:39 AM
If the internet connection to North America holds, I'll get the whole thing uninterrupted on a VHS tape (audio only),
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 17, 2011, 01:20:22 AM
I am leaving for Amsterdam Airport in an hour. The weather is fine and no flights are cancelled (yet!) The only things that matter today are - get to London in time and sit very still during two hours in a very big space...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 17, 2011, 04:44:34 AM
I'm recording it twice. First of all via the computer using Audacity. Secondly via my television's radio tuner and DVD writer. This second way will probably give the best results and all I will need to do is transfer the sound from the DVD onto my computer to edit the sound files. Cunning!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 17, 2011, 04:49:09 AM
It's good to know many people will be recording this... Now at Amsterdam Airport, having an early meal. There won't be much time, once we arrive in London...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 17, 2011, 05:07:22 AM
Brian - hope you read this in time!

Thanks for the message - I will look out for you! I am about to leave, very early I know, but there are reasons... Driving into London, have booked a parking space whch I can't take before 6.00, so I'm going to have to time it carefully! And then a dash round to the doors - thanks for telling me which queue to take. Good to see your pic, I will watch for you. I don't have one to post here - but look for a big bearded bear of a man with glasses, black trousers and a grey shirt on  ;D

Tempted to take my score into the concert, not to read it, but just because it's been so much part of my life-with-The-Gothic for so long, I'd feel naked without it  ::) . How ridiculous is that!?    ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 17, 2011, 05:11:04 AM
Quote from: Luke on July 17, 2011, 05:07:22 AMlook for a big bearded bear of a man

Does Karl Henning know about this?!?!?  ;D ;D ;)

By all means bring your score of course, but the arena doesn't leave much space for personal effects aside from what you can put between your feet! Very, very good luck to ye on that parking issue, sounds mad but it'll work out in the end  :)
Worst-case thing you need to know - the weekend pass holders' door is Door One.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 17, 2011, 05:14:38 AM
Forget your car, Luke! Get there as soon as possible!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 17, 2011, 05:19:26 AM
I hear thunder rolling outside. Either that, or it's the six timpanists and two side-drummers rehearsing...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on July 17, 2011, 07:34:35 AM
So excited for you chaps!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 17, 2011, 07:37:00 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 17, 2011, 07:34:35 AM
So excited for you chaps!

You know, Karl, my fellow North American, it's a shame that concerts like this one with the Gothic don't happen over here. What a barren, culture-less wasteland we live in. :'(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 17, 2011, 07:41:05 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 17, 2011, 07:37:00 AM
You know, Karl, my fellow North American, it's a shame that concerts like this one with the Gothic don't happen over here. What a barren, culture-less wasteland we live in. :'(

Thank goodness for the few MDs around in the US who against all odds and amid all the criticism still do some new music, though not as much not-so-new-but-unjustly-neglected works.

Wait till I get the Beijing Phil to perform the Gothic by telling the authorities that Brian was a closet communist.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 17, 2011, 07:48:22 AM
The Eagle has landed!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 17, 2011, 11:07:08 AM
One of western europe last 'working' dolby cassette decks is busily rolling away here. So far I can't find anything to moan about (the performance,I mean!). This is,in my humble opinion the most satisfiyng performance since my own personal favourite,the Ole Schmidt. (Although it's a bit early to be a 'critic' yet). No choirboys fainting yet,as in the forementioned Schmidt,but there was a loud clatter at one point (something got dropped!). Some very minor differences,though,and I await those crucial solo's with some trepidation.
Must say,is it my imagination,but are the choirs 'struggling' a bit in parts of the 'judex'? Not that I can blame them?
Wish they had it on every night!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 17, 2011, 11:51:22 AM
It's JUST finished! BRAVO! ENCORE! ENCORE!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 17, 2011, 12:38:28 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 17, 2011, 11:51:22 AM
It's JUST finished! BRAVO! ENCORE! ENCORE!

Play it again, Sam.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 17, 2011, 12:59:38 PM
And,thanks to the wonders of...ahem....dolby cassette tape technology I'm getting my encore! (No detectable wow and flutter audible,so far,thank goodness,can't hear any hiss & lovely wide ranging sound) Have to say,the audience seem a lot quieter than those present at the Boult performance (less smokers now?) and very considerate. A nice long pause before the applause after that famously quiet ending.
One awful disaster,however.Human error! Something came up as usual & I missed the first couple of minutes (Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!),but I got the latter half of the first movement and everything else including the (un)groovy retro side breaks. This deck automatically records on side 2,of course, and I await with baited breath to see how well it performed.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 17, 2011, 01:04:16 PM
No worry. It seems traditional that some of the most legendary bookleg recordings have the first two minutes missing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 17, 2011, 01:11:46 PM
Yes,it wouldn't be the same without a cock up.would it? Though,unlike some of the recordings I made when I was young,you don't have those bit's where I'm desperately trying to improve the reception by moving the aerial around!
And it hasn't even chewed the tape up....... yet.
Actually,the recording sounds pretty impressive to my ears........ah,that's the bit where someone seems to have dropped something. That sounds pretty impressive too!!!!
A Nakamichi or Audacity it's certainly not,but I wish to god I'd had a tape deck like this when I was eighteen.
And now I have........in 2011!
Hope I'm not making anyone too jealous with my 'hi-tech' set up?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on July 17, 2011, 01:26:18 PM
Well, what a musical weekend it's been for me!

1) Played my first ever live gig on cigar box guitar at the local blues festival. First time I'd ever played, or sung, in public. Managed to remember all the words to Riot in Cell Block Number 9!

2) Had my gob well and truly smacked by the Proms Gothic. So many superlatives in this performance it's hard to know where to begin, but I think the ultimate accolade was when my missus walked in midway through the broadcast with my supper of egg and chips (she knew it'd be impossible to drag me away from the radio). I mumbled something along the lines of "If this doesn't make Brian's reputation, nothing will", to which she replied "Well, it sounds really good to me!"

Believe me, really good is not a phrase my wife often uses about music. HB - you've arrived, mate!

I'm too overawed to marshall my thoughts at the moment but I'll sleep on it and come back to the Forum next week. Suffice it to say that I simply cannot comprehend how a work of such power - and one which garners such tumultuous applause after a live performance - could ever be sidelined by the nation that gave birth to its composer. Shame on the British musical establishment!!!

And you guys who were there - I envy you. A milestone in your musical lives, no doubt.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 17, 2011, 01:35:51 PM
It IS mind boggling,and I'm pretty sure their's will be boggled too (if mine is,they must be on some higher level of consciousness,by now!).
The other good news is the repeat next Tuesday afternoon,at 2pm. So I get another chance to record that first movement complete.
YIPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEH!

Stop Press: The deck managed the change to side 2,beautifully. Although,for one brief moment the recording level seemed to have a slight problem with coping with the demands of the 'Judex' at full throttle....then it quickly returned to normal. I think I will set the level a little lower for the repeat.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 17, 2011, 01:50:42 PM
What's the verdict from those that were there!!!?! I guess we need to wait for people to get back home! So sad that I missed it, there we are though.

Will this Gothic be released on CD like they did with the Foulds World Requiem?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 17, 2011, 02:31:09 PM
I managed to get a recording over the internet. Not checked it all through but it's complete and the quality is good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 17, 2011, 02:35:08 PM
I'm sure we'll hear from them! I can hardly wait to hear what they have to say.
As to a cd release. I think Johan mentioned that the Havergal Brian Society were trying to get a release organised. I hope they succeed. As to Chandos,so far,anyway,a 'deafening' silence. Maybe some other cd label will oblige.
I have to say I have enjoyed this performance more than any other,and that includes my personal favourite,the Schmidt (another one I wish they would release on cd,or someone would upload!).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 17, 2011, 03:23:48 PM
Intrepid Gothicista logging in....

that was just INCREDIBLE

I have so, so much to write about that peformance, so many things struck me from first note to last. I stood there rooted to the spot, forgetting to breathe. There was just NO slack in this piece. Not for a second. I had the great happiness to meet Brian, Johan and Colin (and see the back of Jeffrey's head!) - Johan remarked to me on the incredible tautness of the piece; Brian on how he'd expected something sloppy and sprawling. Not a bit. From first to last, the thing was utterly rivetting, it had my attention for every note. At some point in the Judex I realised - goodness, it's almost over already. I could happily have stood through it again and again.

Lots and lots to say - visually, there were stunning, beautiful moments - as the lights came up on the choirs in the last chords of movement 3, revealing this mountainous wall of voices right to the very top of the dome; at the same point, as the choirs suddenly, in unison, all flipped open their scores! Much more beautiful than it sounds. he things I have always felt a little apologetic about - the hugeness of the sound meaning that details are lost in the gint choral tuttis - simply weren't there in performance; the spatial effects were spellbinding and everything became magically clear.

Brabbins was utterly superb. His way of marking climxes were perfect;the articulations he brought from his forces sparklingly new and precise; he interjected pauses at just the right points. Thins I already knew about the piece became dramatically more 'real' in the flesh - formal balances and so on - and I think this was down to him as much as anything. At the end, on the last eternal E major his baton dropped infinitely slowly down to the score, and then with a flick of his fingers the sound was extinguished. And then he held his hand there for what seemed an eternity. A magic, perfect moment. Finally the applause errupted, as tuumultuous as I've ever heard, and at least as long as the first movement  ;D The guy behind Brian and I - who was responsible for the loudest whopping and hollering! - said, 'well, that's the best Prom of the year, then.' And I think he was surely right.

Lots more to say, but it'll keep till tomorrow. I didn't take my score in in the end, I left it in the car, but mentally I marked dozens of places which I thought were just perfect, and I might go through them tomorrow. The only negatives, for me - one, down in the arena the orchestral sound was quite flat, because the ranking was mostly reserved for the choirs. This became less of a problem as the piece wore on, though. Two - David Goode, at the organ, had to support the choirs lightly in some of the trickier sections of the Judex and the at last In te, Domine,  (the men, mostly, I think), and I rather wish he hadn't, because I think they would have managed, and it was a little obtrusive, in what is, after all supposed to be a capella singing.

One more thing - more than once, the performance brought tears to my eyes. And not for sentimental 'I've loved this piece for so long' reasons. Just because it was so magnificent. As the choirs swept in, at the climax of the Judex, at the very end, my eyes were moistening. I can admit it.

Surely the greatest concert I will ever go to.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 17, 2011, 03:39:50 PM
Even if Luke hadn't just made that eloquent post all I'd really have to say tonight is...

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More will be written when I start remembering adjectives  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 17, 2011, 03:48:11 PM
Now I'm really sad I didn't go. I was stuck at a pretty ropey ROH young artists matinee. :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 17, 2011, 03:57:12 PM
I am back in the hotel. What a night! Luke, as usual, has already written a beautiful review that makes a lot of points I can only agree with.
 
 My sister and I arrived in the nick of time - just as Martyn Brabbins came on to a welcoming applause, we took our seats. I sat next to Colin (Dundonnell), and later, after the concert, I happened to spot Luke and Brian.
 
 Back to The Gothic. I wonder what the sound engineers have done with the music - the Albert Hall acoustic isn't great. The music doesn't envelop you. And that's a pity. But on to the work again! As I said to Luke - the Gothic is very taut, it doesn't outstay its welcome, it keeps the energy going in every bar, there is no slack. Brabbins conducted the work with a clear vision of what he wanted, what the work's overall shape was. I think it was music critic and HBS member Richard Whitehouse who said to me that Brabbins saw the final choral passage - In te, Domine, speravi - as the goal of the piece, and shaped the whole trajectory accordingly. It paid off. As Luke says, Brabbins articulated the whole immense edifice in the most satisfying manner.
 
 Brian is a visceral composer. There are moments in The Gothic where you are almost physically shaken by the musical happenings. Whilst listening, I became more and more amazed at Brian's self-discipline and clarity of vision, writing this work with no prospect of performance.
 
 Okay, it's getting late. My respect for the artist Havergal Brian has risen. It was already very great, but this performance clinched it.
 
 Havergal Brian is, indubitably, one of the greatest British composers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 17, 2011, 04:13:20 PM
The Royal Albert Hall is maybe the worst concert hall I have ever been to. I hate it! Was underwhelmed by the Ives 4 (another one of these everything bar the kitchen sink works) I saw a few years ago, and hearing soloists is just hopeless in there. That it should house the greatest classical music festival in the world is a travesty. It needs torching.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 17, 2011, 04:49:26 PM
An electronic message from Texas!!!

QuoteSubj: Did you enjoy your concert?

...because we sure did!  Alex [my brother] re-routed BBC Radio through his UK server, brought in two speakers from the garage and boomed it out of his computer, through the speakers and into the living room.  It was a powerful piece.  I really did not have high expectations at the beginning, thinking if it's 2 hours, this guy does not know how to edit, but wow, was I surprised!  All three of us sat in the living room, listening and doing our work on our respective laptops.  It must have been an unforgettable experience to be there to see it.  I can't even imagine that many musicians in one place.  The commentator kept listing all the different orchestras, choirs etc. and I thought he'd be better off listing who was at home today and not playing.

I was astounded that the piece was as cohesive and organic as long as it was.  You'd think the composer would kind of lose sight of his themes, his mood, his thought process with something of this magnitude but no, he sure didn't.  We were all amazed and mesmerized.  What an incredible symphony!

Mom

This was the absolute best part of my night, bar none.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 17, 2011, 04:59:48 PM
Was looking up "Gothic" recordings and of course Wikipedia showed up in my Google search, decided to read up a little more on the piece and it's already been updated, thought you would enjoy this...

The work was performed at the Proms on 17 July 2011 under Martyn Brabbins, with Susan Gritton soprano, Christine Rice mezzo-soprano, Peter Auty tenor, Alastair Miles bass, City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra Youth Chorus, Eltham College Boys' Choir, Southend Boys' and Girls' Choirs, Bach Choir, BBC National Chorus of Wales, Brighton Festival Chorus, Côr Caerdydd, Huddersfield Choral Society, London Symphony Chorus, BBC Concert Orchestra and the BBC National Orchestra of Wales. The performance sold out on the first day of ticket sales.[6] It was enthusiastically received by the audience, with noisy applause (even by Proms standards) lasting several minutes.[/b]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 17, 2011, 06:27:26 PM
The advantage of hearing the work at 4am (and the only one, when considered against the penalty of not having been there!) is that it's now just gone midday, and that has allowed me to spend a lot more time writing a good first impression, rather than having to try to fall asleep after a long evening of demanding music. After a comfortable intermission I've heard the work again complete (only the low-bandwidth stream, but this is still very impressive work from the sound engineers to push out live without modification), and listening to spots here and there to confirm my thoughts. The first listening had to be conducted in accordance with respect for the neighbours' slumber in the wee hours, through headphones; at 9am, the loudspeakers were pressed into service with very satisfying results (where the low end of organ tone and associated contrabass instruments could speak more freely).

The very start of the piece sounded almost clinically precise, perhaps worryingly so: I've typeset the first ten or so pages of the work, and know the density of the polyphony very well, so that being able to hear individual lines almost as though they had brackets drawn around them made me worry that some of the parts were being left out, their microphones not yet switched on! And the woodwind tuning at the very start (as early as bar 9, the squeaky little E flat clarinet is horribly exposed at the top of its range) sounded probably a lot more critical into the microphones than in the hall, however bad the infamous Royal Albert Hall acoustic.

Part One is there of course to warm up the orchestra, and the first movement is probably the weakest of the six: the initial harsh tuning of the woodwinds came good with the less extreme second-subject movement that begins after the concertmaster's almost pentatonic solo; the last pages introducing the full organ capping the movement grandly is always effective.

After the required break to accomodate the members of the audience suffering from consumption or emphysema (no attacca!), the Lento was measured in its march, the climaxes being given great weighty breadth. The pronounced staccato brass against sustained woodwind (which were not audible on the stream) after figure 40 puzzled me – but that's how it's marked in the score, so it's the conductor's job to work out how to resolve these textural issues; it may have worked better live.

The Vivace scherzo always seems the most compelling section of the first part, from the timpani and string ostinato and the horn calls onwards, and so it proved in Brabbin's hands, I think; the unleashing of chaos at the con fuoco passage heralded by duelling timpani was wonderfully handled as the virtuoso orchestration demands. The tubas and string basses perhaps struggled to project their complicated galumphing runs as well as the woodwinds supported by the whirling xylophone. (Curiously, the balances kept readjusting themselves to keep a constant dynamic level, which was highlighting the sustained textures – particularly string harmonics – in a very odd way. I suspect if it is released on disc as a recording, the wider dynamic range will allow this section to sound more naturally balanced.) Only the Grandioso C minor climax of the march felt a little too rushed and impulsive, before the decisive switch by way of a distant modulation to F# and back to the original D minor: the contribution of both bass drums were heard, and almost felt!

The opening choruses of the Te Deum probably have never been sung better, both in the opening passage for children, women's voices and the soloists, as well as the incredibly detailed motif-working for full chorus, with textures striking in their clear articulation through the ensemble. The pacing of the choral sections – which can come off disjointed was logical and assured, though I quite like the a cappella music to be even a touch slower. The choruses are not easy; and it seems unfair to criticise the chorus for pitch discrepancies, but unfortunately, the first re-entry of the orchestra (figure 76) was marred for a number of bars by the flattened entry of the basses which carried most of the choir with it. The final pages with its bold harmonic shifts that lever the Gothic up into the new elevated plane of E major which will predominate over the remainder of the work were fully luminous, beautifully sung and played.

Judex presents a new raft of challenges greater than the ones already surmounted, and I'm ambivalent about the subtle reinforcement by organ: in some places it undoubtedly helped the tuning of the notoriously difficult a cappella music; but the slippage of pitch soon ruled out the organist offering any further help, and the dislocation at the entry of the soprano soloist whose A eventually emerged the better part of a semitone higher than the choir's "A" was regrettable. (In Brisbane, different methods were used to assist this passage; it stayed in pitch, but at the cost of some wayward tuning en route.) The orchestral interludes have seldom felt weightier or more menacing, but I found the entries of the four brass orchestras with their associated division of the choir a little too unrelenting. The slow starting tempo for the second interlude meant a large gear change had to occur at some point (which occurred, in fact, five bars after Brian's marking of "Più Allegro"). The final pages of Judex sounded wonderfully apocalyptic and the effect in the hall must have been much more actinic and overpowering. (The second last bar could have milked the vocal crescendo just a little further.)

The sixth movement has the most diversity and the struggle is in successfully contrasting the almost irreconcilable disparate musical elements. After the oboe d'amore solo (the first of a number of prominent oboe solos in this movement), the tenor aria perhaps wanted a little more beauty in the sudden reversion to chamber-music sensibility of textured playing for its opening stanzas, before the dramatic urge takes over. The incredible celestial passage for choirs (on paper, it looks almost unrehearsable) worked its usual magic when it finally arrived into a single key. The male voice a cappella section sounded less impressive than the women's bell-like passage, perhaps because each of the four sections of the choir sounded like there were different quantities of voices allocated. The truly weird section comprising popular-sounding clarinet march, seated choir vocalisations, Mahlerian posthorn, and truly over-the-top assertion of the major key was roof-raising, with one truly inspired bit of comic pointing by Brabbins, contrasting full forces with the jaunty little flute and clarinet tune that has small links of chains as the percussion accompaniment after a dramatic caesura.

After such enormous jollities, the aspect abruptly turns darker, and Alastair Miles' bass solo was beautifully and dramatically sung, but perhaps the tiniest bit short of the sense of desperation that the music has begun to convey and the hymnist's "miserere" suggests. The double fugue for the choir provided the last moment of calm before the storm, rising beautifully to a molto espressivo climax: if the organ was used here for reinforcement it was done most unobtrusively. About the ending, there is not much to say: the violence was unleashed (the drums entering quietly at first, which is to say, correctly), and at the last minute when all hope seemed lost, the final murmuring of the choir grounded the work securely in E major with a very long dimininuendo into nothing, and an even longer held silence (I think almost 24 seconds on my recording). If the thousand performers of the Proms Gothic were sublime in their numerousness, their repose and the rapt silence in which they were regarded by the audience was almost as incredible.

Cheers, Philip
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 17, 2011, 07:18:50 PM
As for the rest of the day (seeing as I have caffeinated myself heavily to start so early in the small hours) I'm spending it trying to plough through the 2nd half of the realisation of Sorabji's (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3324.0.html) Jāmī symphony (the third movement alone is ten minutes longer than Brabbins' six movements' worth of Brian!). Having ploughed through Mahler's Eighth and Brian's First in successive years, it now seems obvious that Roger Wright must programme Sorabji's Third for next years Proms, though he should ask the Sorabji Society if the brand spankin' new 800+ page typeset full score by David Carter is ready to go into orchestral parts yet.

I might as well confess now that I'm to blame for the very existence of an article on Wikipedia concerning the Gothic Symphony at all: naturally any faults with the article must be due, without question, to the inimical intervention of later editors.

As for the reversal of the channels on the Brisbane Gothic recordings, that is how the Internet stream was presented, with no alterations on my part. Of course I didn't notice the reversal of direction, for from where I was standing in Brisbane, the harps were on the right, and the double basses on the left.

(Please feel free to insert any necessary smileys required to obtain the levity that is otherwise weakly implied by my mock seriousness on these diverse subjects.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lescamil on July 17, 2011, 08:26:43 PM
I also managed to get an audio recording of the July 17 performance. It only begs one question, though:

WHY THE HELL WAS THIS NOT TELEVISED???!?!?

I then would have been able to download said video off the internet to savor for years to come (like many Proms past). It surely is a more momentous occasion to televise in comparison to many of the other Proms concerts that they decided to televise. I think it is something that will leave many Prommers and overseas Proms fans like myself who had no opportunity whatsoever of attending the concert left to think what it could have been like in person. A video recording would have ameliorated that somewhat.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 17, 2011, 09:48:52 PM
I have only slept four hours, but I'm already awake. Philip, what a write-up! Brian's Mom - I love you (Brian's Dad, just kidding, just)! Funny that the radio listeners will have an aural picture of the work  different from those who were present. I can't wait to be back in Delft and listen again. Now, only 10 hours or so after the event, the music is still with me. Nothing beats a live performance. The sense of a piece evolving in realtime before your ears (and eyes) is so strong, that you can almost feel the composer himself materialising in the performing space.

I can't be as detailed (yet?) as Philip in his amazing analysis, so I am leaving that. My sister took pictures and filmed the last 10 minutes or so, I think. In due course I hope to put something up for the absentees' delectation.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 17, 2011, 11:30:23 PM
Thanks JZ – I did have my full score to follow along, without anyone else around to discommode by fussing over its pages, which no doubt helped me organise my thoughts as the work unfolded.

Every time now I hear the part in the Te ergo where MB calls an entire stop to the OTT shebanks, and then casually starts again with the ludicrously flippant flute and clarinet melody and its bizarre accompaniment of trombones, horns, and little vibrating links of chain (figure 374 for those with a score) I'm imagining how it must have been conducted with supreme irreverence, and can hardly stop myself from laughing my head off — or finding myself embarrassingly incontinent by my lack of success in trying (to spell out the well-known phrase in polite terms). The discontinuities in Brian's music distress many a critic, but they are as productive a resource for unvarnished humour as anything else in the surprise of having one's expectations thwarted or creatively subverted. (I'm so going to be hanging out for any video footage of that little portion of proceedings!)

Anyway, my partner (who also sang in Brisbane last December) didn't have the chance to hear the performance this morning, so I'll be hearing it again for a third run-through, in her company this evening after dinner. (With a spare change of trousers, just in case, for that bit of Brian/Brabbins genius in the Te ergo.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 17, 2011, 11:52:22 PM
I have always loved that bizarre moment. Brabbins really made a delicious meal of it by pausing for it as long as he did. It really underscores his cold-blooded approach, which yet had all the feeling behind it to make the work come alive.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on July 17, 2011, 11:59:57 PM
Quote from: Philip Legge on July 17, 2011, 11:30:23 PM
The discontinuities in Brian's music distress many a critic, but they are as productive a resource for unvarnished humour as anything else in the surprise of having one's expectations thwarted or creatively subverted.

This is what I love about HB and all my favourite composers come to that. Discontinuity makes the music much more alive. It was Hb's discovery and use of discontinuity that made him so original.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 18, 2011, 12:55:04 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 17, 2011, 09:48:52 PMBrian's Mom - I love you (Brian's Dad, just kidding, just)!

Her follow-up e-mail this morning:

QuoteI know Dad was pretty wrapped up in his work but all throughout the music Alex and I kept looking at one another in amazement, saying how incredible it was.... You know I'm not big on choral music as most of that sounds like "church music" to me, but this was such an organic part of the music, so well fitting that I did not mind it.  I was amazed that the solos stood out over the rest of the music.  They must have done something magical with microphone placement and engineering the entire sound system.  In fact, this whole concert must have been an engineering feat just as much as it was a musical feat of enormous proportions.  In the end, though, it was a remarkable composition, tight and very focused.  The man must have been a genius.

She also complimented my pictures which reminds me I need to post pictures - hang on a moment...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 18, 2011, 01:02:32 AM
Testing... testing...
(If done properly these should be pre-performance photos of the artists...)
These are obviously much smaller than full size; if you click they become slightly bigger, but if anyone needs an original, perhaps to add to the wall of their home which is a shrine to all things Havergal Brian  ;D , let me know.

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12672585/IMG_4817.JPG)

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12672585/IMG_4818.JPG)

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12672585/IMG_4821.JPG)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 18, 2011, 01:29:51 AM
They did sound like they were being pushed to their limits,at times,and of course they were. I got the feeling the choirs were struggling at times,especially in the Judex. And then there were those strange,high pitched squealy sounds? Now,thanks to Philip,I know what they were! But this just added to the excitement,the feeling of going out on some incredible journey or adventure,like musical white water rafting, and hanging on (at times) by the sheer skin of you're teeth.
The great ending didn't get me on my feet however. The entire performance did!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 18, 2011, 01:48:17 AM
Nice pics, Brian. My sister has much more on her camera. I may take the card with me. I hope to be able to make some of the 'riches' available.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 18, 2011, 02:06:40 AM
I WAS THERE!

My brother and I took a calculated risk and turned up at 1.50pm and were advised by the very helpful staff to queue for the Gallery rather than Arena (because of the resticted places in the Arena, due to the size of the orchestral forces taking up 1/3 of the space); we were even allowed to leave the queue to go to the introductory discussion about the Gothic Symphony at the Royal College of Music (also broadcast live on Radio 3).  We got in, no problem and although I spent a total of c 7 hours standing up it was worth it. I thought that the performance was terrific - much better than the Ole Schmidt one I also attended many years ago. Others have written already very perceptively about the concert here. There was a balanced review in the Daily Telegraph today by Ivan Hewett, in which he says 'The unstoppable flow of ideas was engrossing, even if it was hard to see how they hung together...At the end the massed choirs intoned the wonderfully unexpected hushed chords, and the beast vanished like a mirage.  Will it be seen again in our lifetime?' Well, I certainly hope so - after all, the seats for this concert sold out immediately and there was huge public interest. I found the whole thing to be very moving and gained a much greater appreciation of the Te Deum setting and those final beautiful chords did, retrospectively, tie the whole thing together.

For me, the icing on the cake was meeting Johan, Colin and Brian from this forum in the pub after the concert. Luke - I am really sorry that I did not meet you - that is sad.  After seven hours on my feet I made a sordid dash for the bar, but it did mean that I was in pole position (with Johan's help) to collect some drinks (there was a massive queue at the bar) for the assembled GMG Forum members! It was great to meet Brian for the first time and see Johan and Colin again. I was on a high by the time my daughter picked me up at the station after midnight.  I will never forget this concert.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 18, 2011, 02:19:50 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 15, 2011, 09:51:55 AM
And gentlemen in Germany now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That heard with us the Gothic Symphony.

That's really funny Sarge - made me laugh.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on July 18, 2011, 02:30:52 AM
The reviews have started to come in. (Google "Gothic Symphony reviews" for 5 of 'em - so far.)

And guess what - they're almost all entirely negative.

No change in the British musical establishment there, then. Also, one notes the sporadic comments on these reviews from what appear to be ardent Brian-haters; people who for some reason wish that Brian would go away - and wish it with the same sort of intensity that Richard Dawkins wishes God would go away.

In the end, Brian's reputation will have to lie with music-lovers, not "experts". And that is how it should be.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 18, 2011, 02:46:09 AM
Oh dear,this is what I dreaded. It sounds marvellous to me. Maybe,Brian goes a little OTT in one or two places in the first two movements,but for me,there's never a dull moment,it just surges on like that 'mighty beast'. Awe inspiring.
Anyway. Who cares what they think! Klaatu,you're right.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 18, 2011, 03:25:12 AM
This is the most balanced review I've read today - yes, most of them are entirely negative.  It seems that you either love or hate the Gothic - there is no 'middle way'. Ivan Hewett at least acknowledges the magic of the Gothic.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalconcertreviews/8644874/BBC-Proms-2011-Prom-4-Havergal-Brians-Gothic-Symphony-Albert-Hall-review.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 18, 2011, 03:35:08 AM
I found it staggering that none of the reviewers seem to have heard it before. Imagine jusging a work of this immensity on one hearing?!! Truly bizarre.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 18, 2011, 03:39:55 AM
There is a middle way. I thoroughly enjoyed last night and I've enjoyed listening to the recording this morning. However, I do find some of the music less than inspired but there are enough good moments and some magic here and there to make the journey worthwhile. The reviews are very supportive of the event and the way it was directed by Brabbins. Their problem is with the music or at least parts of it. I follow the middle way. Is the Gothic in the Mahler 2, Beethoven 9, Verdi Requiem class? Personally I don't think it's anywhere near these masterpieces. Do I dismiss it out of hand because of this opinion (and it is an opinion)? Not at all. I prefer it to Mahler 8 (yawn) and most of Bruckner's work. Listening to it all again I fail to understand the need for the orchestra of 200 and the huge choir. It doesn't sound any more massive than other choral works in the romantic repertoire (e.g. the Berlioz Requiem). I honestly think that the work would be heard more often if it used more normal forces. The logistics and costs are a huge turn off, more so than the actual music itself.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: not edward on July 18, 2011, 05:07:01 AM
I like this from the Guardian review:

QuoteEven so the disjunction between the text – a hymn of praise – and the apocalyptic trajectory of much of the music is profound. Bruckner is an obvious model; there are occasional glimpses of Schoenberg's Gurrelieder, and most of all of Franz Schmidt's The Book with Seven Seals.

... failing to note that the Gothic came about 15 years before Schmidt's work. ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 18, 2011, 05:30:53 AM
Well, guys, I wasn't even there in spirit. My sister-in-law arrived from Bremen and I was obliged to spend the evening at my parents-in-law's visiting. Mrs. Rock wouldn't let me get out of it  :(  But I am listening now online via the BBC Radio 3 link (just finished part I). The opening is perfectly paced, the way I've always heard it in my head: neither rushed like Lenárd nor lethargic like Boult. In fact the first three movements are as good or better than I've ever heard although with the compressed dynamics of the internet the climax of the Vivace was a little underwhelming.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 18, 2011, 05:31:41 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 18, 2011, 02:19:50 AM
That's really funny Sarge - made me laugh.

Yeah, I was laughing too...through the tears  :'(  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 18, 2011, 06:35:24 AM
Sitting on a bench in a park adjoining Embankment tube station... The life of my phone battery is draining away, so I'll keep it short. I liked the Hewett review, it did Brian the courtesy of not dismissing him out of hand. Last night has been an education for me. I am asking myself new questions about Brian. He is a mystery I haven't yet solved, and his works partake of this. I am by no means uncritical, but I cannot but love the man and his music!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 18, 2011, 06:39:10 AM
Quote from: Guido on July 18, 2011, 03:35:08 AM
I found it staggering that none of the reviewers seem to have heard it before. Imagine jusging a work of this immensity on one hearing?!! Truly bizarre.

Yeah, you'd think that a performance of work like this, one so seldom heard, would have compelled them to do a little research and listening first. Criticism of the Gothic, both positive and negative, is more "professionally" done on this forum.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 18, 2011, 06:50:17 AM
Quote from: edward on July 18, 2011, 05:07:01 AM
I like this from the Guardian review:

... failing to note that the Gothic came about 15 years before Schmidt's work. ;)

Very poor and rather missing-the-point review. But all not lost at the Guardian. Over on Twitter (which I nver read!) the Guardian critic Tom Service is very excited!:

QuoteGothically huge, gothically weird, and a thundering tombola. Gothic of Brian had it all. Maybe the coda of all codas too

re the coda - my feelings exactly. It always shatters me, and never, ever, ever have the last few sections of the piece sounded so utterly perfect as last night. Brabbins was superb throughout, but from the clarinet march onwards he lifted the music into stratospheric realms, for me - I had the cheesiest grin on my face throughhout that daffy E major la la la-ing, and then to be sunk into that awesome bass solo, in the knowledge of what is to come...the sublime double fugue, and then the onslaught.... I couldn't quit believe what I was hearing. Yes, those last stretches are unlike anything else in music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 18, 2011, 06:52:44 AM
Service has photos of the rehearsal:

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/imgly_production/1508255/large.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 18, 2011, 06:58:57 AM
...and just idly clicking links turns up this long blog post, which sometimes misses the point a little, and which mishears the piece sometimes (I haven't read it all, but my eye was caught by his description of the fugue subject of the In te Dominum as 'a beutiful new idea' missing the fact that it has been heard before, and not only that, that it is in essentials the same idea as the opening of the symphony)

http://5-against-4.blogspot.com/2011/07/proms-2011-havergal-brian-symphony-no-1.html

Below is the text, but if you click on the link there are downloadable FLACs which I assume are from last night!


Quote
Monday, 18 July 2011
Proms 2011: Havergal Brian - Symphony No. 1 'Gothic'

Rarely have i felt the need to prepare so thoroughly before a concert as i did prior to yesterday evening's Prom performance of Havergal Brian's Symphony No. 1 'Gothic' • Books were re-read, CDs were re-listened to, & i even re-visited the writings of John Ruskin, who wrote with such authority about the nature of Gothic • The enterprise felt similar to the preparations for a lengthy trek over difficult & taxing terrain, but such is the nature of the musical landscape of Brian's symphony • At the outset, i suppose, one must tackle the elephant in the room • Except, of course, it's nothing of the kind; for weeks on end, one commentator after another has been getting in an excited lather at the size of the Gothic Symphony • "Gosh, it needs over 1,000 players" they coo; "Wow, it's the longest symphony ever written", they gush, as though mere scale was somehow a laudable trait or even an end in itself • Brian's not alone in suffering from such witless gigantophilia; Sorabji, too, is seemingly forever spoken of in terms of the size of his output • Even Tom Service, the BBC's boy scout-in-residence, could hardly remain still in his seat at yesterday's performance, positively whooping with delight at the sheer colossality of it all • Honestly, everyone, take some deep breaths, & could someone please pass around the chill pills? •

& yet, while the scale of Brian's Gothic Symphony is of course the opposite of being all-important, it's very far from being irrelevant • The outlandishness & utter impracticality are precisely what makes the symphony deserving of the epithet 'gothic' • When Giles Gilbert Scott set about designing that other great English Gothic edifice, Liverpool's Anglican Cathedral, he knew full well that there was absolutely no need for it to be as stupendously cavernous as it is • The blatant exaggeration of its dimensions goes way beyond such a notion as mere function, instead becoming something entirely different, an integral part of its nature & character, of its architectural 'language', if you like • "This is my cathedral...", Gilbert Scott would have said; "...it exists for worship..." he might have continued, "...& it exists to be absolutely f**king huge", he probably would not have concluded (but would have agreed with the sentiment) • Set beside the Gothic Symphony, that building seems quite a close relation, but one could argue that an equally close parallel, dating from precisely the same period as the composition of the Gothic, is the utopian expressionist architecture that sprang up throughout Europe in the wake of the First World War • While no-one would describe the designs of Bruno Taut or Erich Mendelsohn as "gothic", they nonetheless demonstrate a preparedness to discard the traditions & formalities of their art if their imagination felt so inclined • Brian may have been completely unaware of these developments in Europe, but his own psychological imperative for the Gothic could well have sprung from a not dissimilar outlook • Somewhere between these two, traditionalist gigantism & fancy-free expressionism, we find the mindset that may have existed within the head of Havergal Brian around 1919 •

Around a century earlier, Berlioz showed (in his Grande messe des morts) that there really were times when you simply had to have four separate brass bands, 16 timpani & 10 pairs of cymbals (the last of which, i might add, play together for just a single note in the entire piece) • Strauss, Wagner, Mahler (late) & Schoenberg (early) clearly agreed with this sentiment, & Brian's first symphony is essentially the last in a gradual expansion of resources to ever more monumental ends • These days, with orchestras struggling even to keep going for lack of funds, such a massive entity as the Gothic Symphony seems almost a curiosity from a rather more mental time, which perhaps, in part, accounts for the excitable reactions in response to news of its imminent performance • So yes, it's big, there's no denying that, & its size is awesome & exhilarating; but ultimately, it's big for deeper & more meaningful reasons than simply to elicit gasps of amazement; its size is part & parcel of its sonic identity & expressive language •

With more than a nod to Mahler, Havergal Brian structures the symphony in two parts, each of which contains three movements • The shorter, instrumental first part, lasting around 40 minutes, is almost worthy of symphony status by itself; the much larger second part, lasting around 70 minutes, introduces the choir for a large-scale setting of one of the Church's oldest hymns, the Te Deum •

The first movement is composed with sonata form broadly in mind, but swiftly demonstrates a curious take on it • Having established a strong, martial first subject, Brian abruptly brings the orchestra to a stop, barely a minute into the piece (something he does numerous times throughout the work) • The completely contrasting second subject, almost saccharine in its sweetness, dissipates all that initial energy &, moreover, leaves the first subject a very distant memory • In short, Brian milks the second subject dry, & some minutes pass before any genuine momentum is re-established • It's worth noticing at the outset how delicate Brian is with the number of instruments at his command, often reducing the material to small groups of players, regularly allowing solo instruments space to present an idea • The structure's not merely lopsided, either; at the conclusion of the development, an entirely new theme is introduced (on oboe d'amore & bass oboe)—as sonata form goes, this is all playing pretty fast & loose with its guiding principles • But, as mentioned above, that's partly the point of a 'gothic' symphony; John Ruskin describes this very aspect in his Nature of Gothic:


"And it is one of the chief virtues of the Gothic builders that they never suffered ideas of outside symmetries and consistencies to interfere with the real use & value of what they did. If they wanted a window, they opened one; a room, they added one; a buttress, they built one; utterly regardless of any established conventionalities of external appearance, knowing (as indeed it always happened) that such daring interruptions of the formal plan would rather give additional interest to its symmetry than injure it. So that, in the best times of Gothic, a useless window would rather have been opened in an unexpected place for the sake of the surprise, than a useful one forbidden for the sake of symmetry."
By contorting the conventions of sonata form, Havergal Brian is simply demonstrating one of the most fundamental principles of 'gothic' •

The symphony turns away from brilliance in the second movement, which begins funereally, in irregular metre • The music gradually builds, becoming increasingly forceful, even aggressive, but the sense of this being a processional is ever present • Around halfway through, an excited episode begins in hopping woodwinds & pizzicato strings; the basses & brass join in, & the whole is briefly reminiscent of Bruckner's Ninth Symphony • Nonetheless, despite all that will come later, this movement features some of the symphony's most stately & moving material • At its grandest moments, where the principal theme is writ increasingly large, the melancholy is all enveloping (a melancholy that will prove significant as the symphony progresses), an immense chorale commemorating some incomprehensible loss • Understandably, the music returns whence it began, the opening tuba motif returning to guide the movement through its soft, spent conclusion, finishing with a lonely bass clarinet at the nadir of its range •

Beginning the third movement with a distant, driving pulse on the timpani brings the symphony's opening notes to mind—&, once again, Brian no sooner establishes momentum than ruthlessly pulls the rug from under it • For a while, the instruments mooch around in the periphery, before the tubas launch an abrupt fortissimo passage that burns out after half a minute • What follows is brilliantly bizarre: a drum suggests a strange regular rhythm, ignored by the harps which focus on a leaping octave idea, while the tubas—in a passage worthy of Berlioz—descend chromatically through their pedal notes: B-flat - A - G-sharp - G • The rather wistful main theme keeps recurring, & a few minutes later, having been played twice, is answered by a deep ostinato in rough, heavy crotchets by the basses & contrabassoons • The latter half of the movement is among the most brazenly weird orchestral music you're ever likely to encounter • Out of nowhere, development begins, the orchestra seeming to fragment into a myriad shards, each picking up & running with bits of material from earlier, or, just as likely, snippets we've not yet heard • The closing minutes, fixed above a relentless, lolloping pulse, are a nerve-wracking dithyramb; the descending pedal notes return, while the xylophone seems determined to play itself to death • In now familiar fashion, Brian pulls the plug, & Part One of the Gothic Symphony closes with a quietness & delicacy that's almost a bit unnerving considering all that was happening just minutes earlier •

If the previous three movements prove to be a difficult & convoluted triptych, they are as nothing to the complexities Brian will put forth in Part Two, which begins immediately (Brian intended there to be no breaks between any of the movements) with the choir singing the opening lines of the Te Deum • The voices continue unaccompanied for a couple of minutes, yielding to the four soloists momentarily • Horn calls initiate the orchestra's return, dominated by fortissimo repeated notes, & leading to the first great tutti statement: "Te æternum Patrem omnis terra veneratur" • Melody assumes incredible importance as the movement progresses, but Brian chooses to embed them all into what is surely one of the most complex bits of polyphony ever composed • Malcolm MacDonald has described this episode better than i could, "[It] is not to say there are no recognisable tunes: there are scores of them. But they often appear no more than once; are not developed in any way; and at best have merely 'local' significance. They are the passing manifestations of a free-wheeling, untrammelled, and inexhaustibly fertile process of invention" (The Symphonies of Havergal Brian, p. 44) • For a full five minutes this dense texture is maintained, before a brief slab of fanfare heralds another unaccompanied passage, lengthy, soft & searching ("Patrem immensæ majestatis") • The return of the orchestra leads through some of the movement's most convoluted textures, becoming clarified in the repeated note motif that introduces a massive triadic yell of "Tu Rex Gloriæ Christe" • Again, the choir takes control, & while the music oscillates between dynamic extremes, some of the quieter moments are powerfully telling, such as the quiet, downward-tending melismas at "non horruisti Virginis uterum", & the final word, "Patris", causing the large tutti instantly to reduce to a more reverential tone, ending the movement •

A mere four words occupy the fifth movement: "Judex crederis esse venturus" ('we believe you will come to be our judge'), beginning in an expanding series of rich, shining clusters for the opening word • Interpolated by high writing for the solo soprano, this develops into a web of melodic invention that defies all attempts to extricate individual lines • Brian now gives the choir a lengthy rest; a brass fanfare builds, halts for a horn solo, before a huge, rather laborious orchestral episode dominated by the brass; after a few minutes of this comes one of the symphony's most momentous passages • In another tip of the hat to Berlioz, Brian has an additional four brass bands distinct from the main orchestra • One by one, together with one of the choruses, these now explore the entire four-word phrase, each rendition unique from the others; they're separated by rather grand lengthy strands of melody in the strings • Buoyed up by such bold statements, the orchestra embarks on a slow but steady crescendo towards a series of large surges; rudely curtailed, it begins again, this time with the full force of the singers on board, culminating in a dizzying, devastatingly loud tutti (the orchestra actually drowning out the organ!), the apocalypse hinted at in the text seeming rather close at hand, the closing notes made yet more frightening by the presence of a rattling bird-scare •

A little over two hours into the work, it's a little daunting to contemplate that the sixth & final movement—the longest, lasting over half an hour—still lies ahead • It opens simply enough, with a tenor aria ("Te ergo quæsumus"), supported by a quorum from the orchestra • As the tenor's line becomes increasingly fraught & chromatic, the orchestra finally overwhelms him, the brass letting rip in a full-blooded fanfarish exclamation • Calm is restored, the tenor resumes, this time leading to a new section in much faster tempo, & the return of the choir • Brian pulls things back again, this time for the soprano soloist, surrounded on all sides by plucked strings & cascading woodwinds • The choir assumes control, & leads the material to the movement's first big climax, Brian reaching for his trusty xylophone to hammer the point home • The orchestra retreats for a few minutes, the male voices providing the focus, culminating in the impassioned plea, "Salvum fac populum tuum" ('O Lord, save thy people') • The texture lightens afterward, waxing briefly, but quieting to a delightfully tonally ambiguous rendering of "Per singulos dies benedicimus te" in the upper voices • Then comes probably the most shockingly oblique shift in mood in the entire work: over a steady pulse, a jolly march-like tune is begun by the clarinets • Over many minutes, this march subsumes everyone, leading to a series of militaristic climaxes (cue the xylophone), the choir's angular melody becoming increasingly outlandish • The clarinet melody returns to quash the mood, transitioning to an emotive aria for the bass solo ("Dignare, Domine"), heavily reinforced by the strings • Interrupted by a grand brass phrase that could almost have been lifted from the last movement of Mahler's Second Symphony, the bass continues to the point where the upper voices begin a beautiful new idea at "In te, Domine speravi" ('O Lord, in thee have I trusted'), words that foretell that the end is in sight • An exquisite double fugue ensues, Brian slowly, irrevocably pushing the material in an increasingly melancholic direction; this is heard emphatically as the strings take over from the voices • The final phrase, "non confundar in aeternum" ('Never let me be confounded') is at first projected as loudly & forcefully as possible, all drums blazing, brass everywhere, but in the present context, sounds deliberately forced, its confidence shaky • Two final, desperate surges can't alter the reality of things; this symphony is going to end in a decidedly uncertain place; the heartfelt but ultimately downcast melody from, first, the cellos (a magical moment) & later a solo oboe tells a truer story • The choir's final, unaccompanied phrase ends on an emphatically major triad, suggesting that, despite such fragility, hope remains •

i have little doubt that, for so many reasons, there will be those who find Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony to be perhaps the greatest compositional folly ever committed to paper • Its unwieldy structures, the stop-start mannerisms, the chopping & changing between disparate stylistic ideas, the gluttonous need for 1,000+ performers—all of these, & more, could be cited as evidence for a composer in search of a voice, or, at least, in search of a language • But i think that would be to misunderstand many things, not least of which Brian's undeniable originality of thought, his interpretation of what 'gothic' really means, the historical context in which he was composing, both within England & the wider world • Whatever else you might say about it, the Gothic Symphony is conclusive, indefatigable, triumphant proof that there is very, very much more to early 20th century English music than the endless parade of oratorios trotted out by our nation's keen but ultimately narrow-minded collection of choral societies •

The BBC deserves kudos upon kudos for going to the ridiculous lengths it must have required to stage the Gothic • Martyn Brabbins really ought to receive a medal for managing to martial over 1,000 performers, & while the choirs occasionally proved to be the most noticeable let-down (hearing 800+ singers go flat is rather glaring), it would be churlish to describe their achievement in such challenging music as anything but a success • But the greatest success of all must go to the anonymous engineers who managed to get the balance so incredibly right in the broadcast • This is by the far the clearest rendition of the Gothic Symphony ever heard; the Naxos recording—previously the benchmark for the work—has finally met its match •

It perhaps goes without saying that Havergal Brian still had much to learn when he composed this symphony • It was, after all, merely the first in no fewer than 32 that the composer would write through the rest of his life • It is, undoubtedly, flawed, but i think that need take nothing away from its worth & indeed its rank as a masterpiece of the symphonic form • In this regard, perhaps the final word is best left to John Ruskin:


"It seems a fantastic paradox, but it is nevertheless a most important truth, that no architecture can be truly noble which is not imperfect. [...] accurately speaking, no good work whatever can be perfect, and the demand for perfection is always a sign of misunderstanding of the ends of art."


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on July 18, 2011, 07:35:26 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 18, 2011, 06:35:24 AM
I am asking myself new questions about Brian. He is a mystery I haven't yet solved, and his works partake of this. I am by no means uncritical, but I cannot but love the man and his music!

Descriptions like this remind me of the way many view Ives - yet the latter is widely respected. Ives has his hymn tunes, Brian his marches, etc.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 18, 2011, 07:39:20 AM
I will be taking the MARCO POLO recording of the Gothic with me on my lecture trip which starts in two days. I will at least give it two listenings, and possibly more if the usual flight delays and cancellations occur.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 18, 2011, 07:48:11 AM
If they hate it that much it's GOT to be good.
There's nothing worse than indifference.
I shall seal my C90 cassette recording in aspic.
(Actually,it already is!)
More reviews fuelled by contempt,please.
(They LOVE it really).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 18, 2011, 07:50:21 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 18, 2011, 07:48:11 AM


There's nothing worse than indifference.



Amen to that!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 18, 2011, 08:33:28 AM
Almost my only concern last night (as I said in my incoherent post after my befuddled night time drive back) was the sound in the arena in Part I. I could tell that every note was there, but there was such a flaness to the sound down there (below the orchestra, of course), and the (orchestral) brass and the winds very muted, mainly, I think, because they weren't ranked. But listening to the FLAC I've just downloaded alleviates my worries. The sound was fabulous, clearly - just not where Brian and I were standing. It is amazing. Every detail there, clear as crystal. No time to listen again all the way through now, unfortunately...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 18, 2011, 08:42:52 AM
Quote from: Luke on July 18, 2011, 08:33:28 AM
But listening to the FLAC I've just downloaded

...from...?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 18, 2011, 09:52:10 AM
From the link in my previous post.  :)  :)  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 18, 2011, 09:58:55 AM
Quote from: Luke on July 18, 2011, 06:58:57 AMdownloadable FLACs which I assume are from last night!

How much of the timing is blank/radio broadcast? The link says 1h57 min; by my watch, the performance lasted about 1h47min. Still, I have to assume it's the real deal since they also have the interview... downloading!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 18, 2011, 10:28:19 AM
Hello - i just joined this fine forum (which i admit i didn't know existed) as i saw people were coming to 5:4 from here!

What do you mean by "blank/radio broadcast"? My recording starts with Tom Service's preamble & finishes at the end of the extensive applause at the end.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 18, 2011, 10:57:36 AM
It's bloody marvellous. So much etail I've never heard, and such a committed performance. It was obvious in the hall, of course, but I couldn't really hear those wind choirs properly - they are superb.

Maybe it's already been posted, but there was a nice article in the Guardian about this performance a few dyas ago

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/jul/13/gothic-symphony-havergal-brian-proms?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

I see our newest member is the guy who penned the lenghty blog post I cut+pasted earlier, and who put up these downloads! What good news - I hope he doesn't mind me  copying his thoughts over here, I'll delete them from my post if he wishes. And thanks to him for the downloads! I wonder if it's just coincidence that he found us, or did one of us contact him? Anyway, welcome to him - I love the name, 5against4 (and how good to hear Brian's 5 against 3 climax in the second movement in all its glory ;D )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 18, 2011, 11:00:24 AM
...and indeed I was just listening to that end of the second movement as I typed. My jaw just hit the floor at some of the sounds I was hearing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 18, 2011, 11:11:38 AM
And btw - I realise that my brief comments regarding that long blog post might seem churlish (picking up on a couple of small things as a sad old fanatic will tend to do, and neglecting to mention all the many positives!). But I hope not, as I really didn't mean them that way - I think it's an admirable and thoughtful piece of writing, and I found myself fascinated in the Gothic-by-way-of-Ruskin angle particularly.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 18, 2011, 11:32:56 AM
Quote from: Luke on July 18, 2011, 11:11:38 AM
And btw - I realise that my brief comments regarding that long blog post might seem churlish (picking up on a couple of small things as a sad old fanatic will tend to do, and neglecting to mention all the many positives!). But I hope not, as I really didn't mean them that way - I think it's an admirable and thoughtful piece of writing, and I found myself fascinated in the Gothic-by-way-of-Ruskin angle particularly.

Luke, please don't trouble yourself about the churlishness; i actually found your nit-picking about a work that's simultaneously so complex & also so unfamiliar the sure-fire sign that you *must* be an expert!  ;)

i hope you don't feel i "missed the point" too greatly; as my article says, i spent no little time preparing myself for the occasion, as it's been so long since i've spent time with it. Without wishing to denigrate other reviewers, i was rather shocked to find so many of the other responses i've seen written in such a off-handedly dismissive fashion. If there's one piece you simply can't be cavalier about, it's this one.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 18, 2011, 11:42:01 AM
Quote from: 5against4 on July 18, 2011, 10:28:19 AM
What do you mean by "blank/radio broadcast"? My recording starts with Tom Service's preamble & finishes at the end of the extensive applause at the end.

Just downloaded, put it on and ascertained the truth. Thanks!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 18, 2011, 11:42:25 AM
@ 5:4

No, I'm feeling foolish myself - thank you for your generous post! At first I found the Ruskin idea to be a bit of a red-herring, with my stuck-in-the-mud idea of the piece and what the title means or doesn't mean. But then - as I said more recently - actually reading what you said, I realied you had a very good point. So I'm sorry for misjuding it!And the other bit was just the small point about that wonderful In te Domine double fugue. It's always been, for me, the crux of the work, that, but it's a passage that is relatively rarely mentioned. It was great to hear Johan, last night, after the concert, saying exactly the same thing. And IMO what is wonderful about that fugue - apart from it's sheer perfect beauty, and it's pinpoint placing in the structure of the whole  after the business is done, and before hell is unleashed - is the discrete reference it makes to the fundamental 'ur' idea of the work: the rising minor third, and the extension of this idea, the rising minor third which fallas back and then rses a fifth. It is as if here Brian is encapsulating a great deal in this glorious quasi-Renaissance chorus, so soft and yet so massive, imbued with the weight of everything that has gone before and preparing in some miraculous way for the brutal onslaught that follows. And its that minor third motive that does this, I think.

Anyway, a more formal welcome - I hope you stick around! And thank you for providing the first links I found to the stupendous recording I am still listening to. I will never forget the experience of being in the hall last night, but this souvenir of the concert is more than just that, since it lets me hear things with a clarity I coulnd't have at the time! There are a few clunks, obviously, and I still wish Goode hadn't used the organ to support the choirs. But this is th Gothic to hear, now, I think  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 18, 2011, 11:49:10 AM
...and I couldn't agree more with your second paragraph above, either. This is the sad but amusing spectacle of music critics coming up against a piece which they feel they must find something terrible in, and just looking hopelessly out-of-touch in the attempt. It's amusing to see the critical 'experts' pontificating but making errors about the piece all over the place (today I learnt that there are only two brass bands in the symphony, so my score and my eyes and ears must be wrong....) when the audience is chock full of peple who know the (apparently unmemorable) piece inside out and back to front.  ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 18, 2011, 11:53:31 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 18, 2011, 11:42:01 AM
Just downloaded, put it on and ascertained the truth. Thanks!

Most welcome. i must say i was tempted to edit out Tom Service's asinine remarks, but wanted to preserve the totality of the evening! That boy will never learn...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 18, 2011, 12:06:09 PM
Visually, the evening was treat, I have to say. I tried to describe it a little last night, but I don't think I did well. That dim mountain of singers behind the orchestra all through the first part, and then, just at the end of the third movement (about the time that someone in the arena drops something with a crash!) there is a unisonflickering of pages - little flashes of white against the black. Something is about to happen...the four soloists walk on as the orchestra plays the final bars. The lights come up on the choirs. Heavenyl voices flood the hall. Splendid!

The spatial element of the whole stunned me, too. At last those mammoth choruses were heard as they should be - and Brian was proved right. Nothing clogged here, just hypnotic swathes of imitative sound from all sides. Even small things - the small voices in the orchestra - the solo violin in the first movement, the oboe -amore in the last - because they were now associated with a location as well as a timbre, now became even more imbued with formal weight. Things I knew became things I felt - how the music returned in both cases to its source in place as well as tone. I realise this seems a small thing, but it felt magnificent to hear the work in this way. In a similar way - such a small obvious thing - but to see the movement from tenor solo (beginning on VI) to bass solo (near ned of VI), paralleled by a shift from predominantly left-hand orchestral sounds (it seemed) to predominantly right-hand ones was thirlling. As if the music had stepped into a deeper, denser world. As Johan remarked afterwards - could Brian really have envisaged these effecs (he was thinking more of the big theatrical effects of the choruses, their standing and sitting in such huge swathes...)? I doubt it, really. But it works amazingly well.

Two players caught my eye, for much lighter reasons. The eager, muscles-tensed timpanist of brass band 3. A dead ringer foro Rob Bryden (actor/comedian). And, in the cellos (maybe in other parts of the orchestra too, I coulnd't see) Brabbins' keen ear had asked for a couple of players only at some points in Part II. What precise balancing! At first I could only see one of them, sitting there stock still, eyes closed, as if asleep, looking, I thought for a moment, like some kind of weird art installation!! I even nudged poor Brian to point him out, he looked so odd dozing there! But then I saw his desk partner, also not playing, and realised what was happening. Must have been so odd to sit there through all the cataclysmic noise and not play. Not fun for the playerat all.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 18, 2011, 12:37:41 PM
Apologies for all the many typos recently, btw. A combination of a) my keyboard playing up and b) the recurrence of the strange phenomenon my computer was afflicted with months ago. Once I have written to the bottom of the text box, any further text I write is instantly scrolled-up from, back to the top of the box, leaving me unsure what I have written! If anyone knows the reason, I'd be grateful for help!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 18, 2011, 12:41:36 PM
Quote from: Luke on July 18, 2011, 12:37:41 PM
Apologies for all the many typos recently, btw. A combination of a) my keyboard playing up and b) the recurrence of the strange phenomenon my computer was afflicted with months ago. Once I have written to the bottom of the text box, any further text I write is instantly scrolled-up from, back to the top of the box, leaving me unsure what I have written! If anyone knows the reason, I'd be grateful for help!

What web browser do you use?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on July 18, 2011, 12:50:52 PM
Quite a frabjous day for this thread!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 18, 2011, 01:18:57 PM
Friends, I am back in Delft. I see a new member has joined GMG, 5against4, who has already contributed a lot! These two days have been momentous for me. Apart from the unforgettable experience of hearing Brian again 'in the raw', meeting Luke, Brian, Jeffrey, and Colin, and being suddenly accosted by fellow member Albion, whom I didn't know by face, I mixed a lot with (Committee) members of the HBS. It pleased me very much to see that the HBS isn't idle. Brian is a lucky composer.


But now I'm making coffee and going to listen to 'The Gothic' (again!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 18, 2011, 01:35:52 PM
I've spent the best part of the day editing and tidying up a recording I made of last night's epic on my Audio CD recorder. It's turned out really well and it's now properly topped and tailed with separate tracks. I've already sent the links to Johan of the unedited version without tracks (high quality mp3s). I tried to download the FLACS people have been talking about on this forum to compare but I can't get them to play. My computer is a bit old I think! If anyone wants the links to my recording I'm very happy to oblige. Despite the peculiar acoustic it sounds pretty good and the detail is stupendous. Hats off to the BBC engineering team I say.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 18, 2011, 01:40:26 PM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on July 18, 2011, 01:35:52 PM
I've spent the best part of the day editing and tidying up a recording I made of last night's epic on my Audio CD recorder. It's turned out really well and it's now properly topped and tailed with separate tracks. I've already sent the links to Johan of the unedited version without tracks (high quality mp3s). I tried to download the FLACS people have been talking about on this forum to compare but I can't get them to play. My computer is a bit old I think! If anyone wants the links to my recording I'm very happy to oblige. Despite the peculiar acoustic it sounds pretty good and the detail is stupendous. Hats off to the BBC enginerring team I say.


Hi, John! Thanks for taking all that trouble! As for your computer not playing FLAC files, could it be you don't have a programme on your computer which plays those files? If that's the case, download foobar2000, and the problem is solved.


Ah! I now see what's the matter - you need to 'unrar' these files, they are zipped. Download WinRar for free...


And yes - please furnish me with the links to your cleaned-up recording!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 18, 2011, 01:53:48 PM
Can't believe I didn't make it... :( Also, HOW was this not filmed. And Luke - you're right about the sound - The BBC engineers are fabulous and usually mike the PROMS up a treat, but that hall is death acoustically. Luckily we have the recording! Must download.

It seems almost unanimous then that this is the best ever recording of the piece?

What would be the dream forces/conductor/soloist?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 18, 2011, 02:06:59 PM
Hi Johan,
I will upload them all tomorrow at the highest possible resolution (356kbps). When you burn the CD from the downloads make sure that you choose the option "no pause between tracks" and you will get continuous music (like the last 3 movts of Beethoven 6). Otherwise you will get small blank gaps between movements - I'm thinking especially of the Lento espressivo and the Vivace which hardly had a millisecond between them in Brabbins' hands. I like the Brabbins version far more than the Boult and Lenard. Musically very satisfying. If you would like CDs at the best quality from my original wavs I will post them to you if you wish. Just let me know.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 18, 2011, 02:09:43 PM
Quote from: Guido on July 18, 2011, 01:53:48 PM
It seems almost unanimous then that this is the best ever recording of the piece?

I think Johan was quite adamant that it excels Ole Schmidt and Adrian Boult by leaps and bounds, and he had slight reservations about Curro.

Quote from: Guido on July 18, 2011, 01:53:48 PM
What would be the dream forces/conductor/soloist?

Oof. Based on my single listen to the work and very little knowledge of it outside the concert hall, and taking the "dream forces" suggestion liberally, I would go Concertgebouw + Staatskapelle Dresden, Chicago SO brass for the bands, alto Christine Rice (from the Prom), bass Quasthoff/Finley, time-traveling tenor Beno Blachut, soprano Hibla Gerzmava [or Victoria de los Angeles or Ana Maria Martinez offstage for the vocalise], and god knows what choirs, all under the baton of - hmmm - not Solti - for a hyperemotional account, Bernstein, or for more fidelity to score, Bertini, Wit, maybe Vanska, frankly Brabbins!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 18, 2011, 02:10:48 PM
It is two years since I last contributed to this forum(after bending other members' ears for perhaps too long with my enthusiasms for lesser-known symphonists!) and I have been busy with research and writing. I really wanted however to make at least an initial return to add my name to all the well-deserved enconiums being heaped on last night's performance!

There is so much that I would like to say but I fear I would simply be echoing what others have already so eloquently written here.  What I will say though is that around 48 long years ago I first discovered Havergal Brian through the section written by Deryck Cooke in the Penguin Guide to Choral Music. What Cooke wrote so impressed me that I read it aloud to my close school friend Malcolm MacDonald. Malcolm was so impressed that we both became young Brian addicts without having head a note of the music! Malcolm-bless him-has gone on to become THE Brian expert and if I in that small way I contributed to that happening then I am very proud. Malcolm's work on behalf of Brian over the last forty years or so has been so immensely distinguished and his efforts to secure Brian his rightful place in the pantheon of great British(indeed, world) composers has been in no small way responsible for last night happening.

The other thing I would want to put on record is this. Last night I took along my young nephew who is not particularly interested in classical music(he plays drums in a jazz/rock band). I was worried that he might hate the work or be bored by it. At the end I turned to him and, to my utter astonishment and totally unalloyed delight, found that he had tears in his eyes. He ws extremely moved by what he had heard and seen. I can imagine no greater pleasure than to have been able to pass on, almost half a century later, my love of the Gothic.

It was truly a night I shall never forget and having lived since I was about 16 years old with the idea of witnessing a performance to actually finally be swept up in its splendour and magnificence was a wonderful, wonderful experience.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 18, 2011, 02:13:34 PM
Quote from: Guido on July 18, 2011, 01:53:48 PMWhat would be the dream forces/conductor/soloist?

Though it might be a bit of a stretch, but I would love to hear Rattle with his ultra-detailed style conduct this massive work with the Berliners with perhaps the Hamburg Philharmonic or the Cologne Radio Symphony added for the second orchestra. I seriously think Rattle would do a fine job. This kind of work seems right up his alley. I think Rattle would find interesting details in this work that no other conductor has found. In a work of this size, you really need a conductor that 1. understands the complexity and structure of the music, 2. keeps a taut line on both orchestras from getting out-of-hand, and 3. a work of this size also needs a sympathetic choral director that understands the conductor's vision for the work (Stephen Layton/Polyphony would be an ideal group along with all of the Berliner's resources).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 18, 2011, 02:17:17 PM
Dream team - BBC Phil and LSO with Black Dyke Band and Colin Davis OR Pinkett and the LSSO with Desford Colliery. Are you lot NEVER satisfied? Last night was top quality. Absolute top quality. Dresden? Berlin? Concertgebouw? Don't think so. Their sight reading powers are not as good as the Brits you know!!!! Be happy with what you've got.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 18, 2011, 02:17:59 PM
@John, uploading the files would be excellent! I know about 'gapless playback', being a Wagnerian...


@Dundonnell Good to see you back!!


@Brian I just listened to the first few minutes - incredible. Brabbins has the laser vision of a Boulez.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: lescamil on July 18, 2011, 02:19:56 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 18, 2011, 02:13:34 PM
Though it might be a bit of a stretch, but I would love to hear Rattle with his ultra-detailed style conduct this massive work with the Berliners with perhaps the Hamburg Philharmonic or the Cologne Radio Symphony added for the second orchestra. I seriously think Rattle would do a fine job. This kind of work seems right up his alley. I think Rattle would find interesting details in this work that no other conductor has found. In a work of this size, you really need a conductor that 1. understands the complexity and structure of the music, 2. keeps a taut line on both orchestras from getting out-of-hand, and 3. a work of this size also needs a sympathetic choral director that understands the conductor's vision for the work (Stephen Layton/Polyphony would be an ideal group along with all of the Berliner's resources).

Completely agreed, although I think Brabbins brings his own skill set to the party, with all of his experiences conducting all sorts of world premieres and pieces that have not seen the light of day for decades or even centuries (look at his Hyperion discography). I haven't heard the recording yet, but I can only expect good things from it (all of its inherent flaws aside), especially from reading the more critical reviews of the performance. It seems to me that Brabbins would bring a more encyclopedic interpretation to the public, which is perfect for a first listen, but Rattle would be perfect for someone who is perhaps more seasoned to the work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 18, 2011, 02:21:50 PM
I have it on good authority(from someone who has spoken to him) that Rattle hates Brian's music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 18, 2011, 02:26:44 PM
Listening now - to 5:4's recording. AMAZING. It's never been so clear and beautiful! Such a great thing they've done!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 18, 2011, 02:29:22 PM
You are young enough, Guido! You will get another chance to be at a live performance, I am sure!! ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 18, 2011, 02:30:07 PM
Lets hope so!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 18, 2011, 02:33:19 PM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on July 18, 2011, 02:17:17 PM
Dream team - BBC Phil and LSO with Black Dyke Band and Colin Davis OR Pinkett and the LSSO with Desford Colliery. Are you lot NEVER satisfied? Last night was top quality. Absolute top quality. Dresden? Berlin? Concertgebouw? Don't think so. Their sight reading powers are not as good as the Brits you know!!!! Be happy with what you've got.

Oh, I am very very satisfied! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 18, 2011, 02:34:52 PM
Quote from: lescamil on July 18, 2011, 02:19:56 PM
Completely agreed, although I think Brabbins brings his own skill set to the party, with all of his experiences conducting all sorts of world premieres and pieces that have not seen the light of day for decades or even centuries (look at his Hyperion discography). I haven't heard the recording yet, but I can only expect good things from it (all of its inherent flaws aside), especially from reading the more critical reviews of the performance. It seems to me that Brabbins would bring a more encyclopedic interpretation to the public, which is perfect for a first listen, but Rattle would be perfect for someone who is perhaps more seasoned to the work.

I don't think Brabbins is a bad choice and I'm generally impressed with his conducting. I do hope there's a recording of this performance in the pipeline.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 18, 2011, 02:36:38 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 18, 2011, 02:21:50 PM
I have it on good authority (from someone who has spoken to him) that Rattle hates Brian's music.

That's a shame. I would have loved to have heard Hickox, Handley, or Thomson conduct this work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 18, 2011, 02:50:37 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 18, 2011, 02:36:38 PM
That's a shame. I would have loved to have heard Hickox, Handley, or Thomson conduct this work.

The reason Brabbins works so well - and the reason we were a bit skeptical about Rattle when someone mentioned him at the pub - is that with a work this sprawling, ambitious, and outrageously idiosyncratic, it's very very good indeed to have a conductor who is none of those things at all: capable of great excitement, to be sure, but a conductor who emphasizes clarity and absolutely negates personal idiosyncrasy. Martyn Brabbins is, as the Guardian called him, an "anti-maestro," and his understated but fully in-command leadership had us all inspired. So I don't necessarily think it's "Englishness" which one would look for in conducting this work, but an emphasis on clarity and a willingness to let Havergal Brian's be the only ego onstage.  ;D

Incidentally, this all may be why the first and only commercial recording is by the consummately professional but not exactly unforgettable Ondrej Lenard. It also may be why some of the best recordings of the huge works of Bruckner, Mahler, and Messiaen are provided by conductors like Wand, Bertini, and Wit (and, only slightly deviating from the pattern, Boulez).

You can listen to the performance on 5against4's blog if you can't possibly wait :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 18, 2011, 02:52:58 PM
The grand return of Dundonnell to this forum is itself a cause for celebration - I have missed your contributions very much.

Attending the concert last night has also made me reconsider what I think of Havergal Brian and his Gothic Symphony.  I have listened to the Naxos recording twice since the concert - with growing appreciation. I see the apparent non-sequiturs in Brian's music to be an asset rather than a liability.  I think that the unpredictability of the Gothic and other scores is part of its appeal (there is a comparison with Langgaard here I think).  In this sense Brian reminds me of the primitive painter Rousseau ('Le Douanier'), who, like Brian, was largely self-taught and, lacking academic training fell back on what came to be valued most in early 20th century painting - instinct.  I've heard it argued that if Rousseau had had an academic training it would have crushed his extraordinary and vivid imagination, which brings his paintings alive - so, we would probably not have heard of him. Likewise Brian, who clearly did have technical know-how, is carried forward by his extraordinary vision to produce in the Gothic a work of startling originality (by the way, unlike many critics, I  hear nothing of Vaughan Williams in the symphony). The Brabbins performance (and I agree that it is the best of the four I have heard either live or on CD) brought me to a much greater appreciation of Part Two - the massive setting of the Te Deum. I'm not sure if I'm the only one here who also went to the Ole Schmidt performance (I still have the programme somewhere) but I remember switching off in Part Two - I was much younger and less interested in choral music than I am now and the performance was not nearly as good as last night's concert. In a perverse way I rather enjoyed having to stand through it (having spent 5 hours in the queue) - somehow for me it added to the sense of occasion (the fact that I've hardly been able to walk today is neither here nor there!) Somehow the whole thing became a kind of test of endurance, which seemed oddly appropriate. My brother (a Bruckner fanatic) who was with me said that for him the Gothic represented the struggle/contrast between divine perfection and human imperfection - an interesting thought.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 18, 2011, 02:57:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmSL0lsHQZg

This has appeared on YouTube from someone in the audience. It is tantalizingly brief but enough to make one so sad that it was not indeed televised!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 18, 2011, 02:59:58 PM
Oh....and Thank You so much for your kind comment, Jeffrey! Yours is a superbly perceptive posting!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 18, 2011, 03:05:42 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 18, 2011, 02:57:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmSL0lsHQZg

This has appeared on YouTube from someone in the audience. It is tantalizingly brief but enough to make one so sad that it was not indeed televised!!!

Thank you Colin for posting this - and for your nice comment above.  Yes, of course they should have televised the concert - it was a visual spectacle as well as an aural one - a wasted opportunity.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on July 18, 2011, 03:07:35 PM
Must save the precious camera crews for broadcasting more Beethoven symphonies by second-tier orchestras ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 18, 2011, 03:09:52 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on July 18, 2011, 03:07:35 PM
Must save the precious camera crews for broadcasting more Beethoven symphonies by second-tier orchestras ::)

Absolutely!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on July 18, 2011, 03:10:19 PM
They're expanding the coverage to third-tier outfits, too!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 18, 2011, 03:24:47 PM
OT

I've just listened right through Gliere's mammoth Ilya Muromets Symphony (RPO, Faberman) - seeing the Brian has obviously put me in the mood for gargantuan epic symphonies! I have been very fortunate to see the Gliere live in London too a few years ago (the first performance of the complete score in England since c 1913 I think).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 18, 2011, 03:30:47 PM
The things I hoped for most were that this performance 1) would be great , 2) would deepen the understanding of those that (think they) know the piece, 3) make some sceptics reconsider and 4) gain Brian new friends. All four things have happened. I am very glad! [I liked your earlier post a lot, Jeffrey! It is wonderful to see you really getting through to the work!]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 18, 2011, 03:52:11 PM
Fittingly for such a massive symphony, I've written two blog essays about seeing the 'Gothic'!

Seeing the 'Gothic' (http://bgreinhart.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/seeing-the-gothic/) on the experience of being there as a newcomer to the music
On Ambition in Art (http://bgreinhart.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/on-ambition-in-art/), a meditation on when ambition works as an artistic trait and when it may not

Bear in mind, of course, that my blog is casually written for friends so there won't be score analysis or comparisons to Ole Schmidt or anything like that.  :) Be gentle :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on July 18, 2011, 03:53:45 PM
A view from the stalls:

Well, what an event! The sense of anticipation was palpable in the three-quarters of an hour from when the doors opened to the moment that Martyn Brabbins signalled that we were all (both at home and in the Hall itself) about to embark on an epic journey through one of the most extraordinary musical creations of the twentieth century. As the innumerable choristers filed in, joined by the vast orchestral forces (marshalled both on the specially-extended stage and off-stage to left and right) the question was - would the actual experience of hearing the music match up to all this pent-up excitement.

Personally, the answer was undoubtedly and triumphantly "Yes"! I think it is fair to say that this was the best performance that the Gothic has ever had - certainly the sheer orchestral virtuosity was breath-taking. The contribution of the 800 choral singers came unnaturally close to matching the super-human (or inhuman) demands made by Brian in his "music of the imagination": true, there were occasional pitch-issues (which are inevitable in a live performance and can probably only be overcome in a recording studio, with the opportunity for cut-and-paste re-pitching), but this all added to a sense of striving against impossible odds which is surely a fundamental part of the composer's vision. The four vocal soloists were excellent too and their dramatic entrance, timed to perfection as the massed choirs stood as one on the dramatic F# chord towards the end of the Scherzo, was truly electrifying.

The hero of the hour was Martyn Brabbins - he did not just beat like a windmill and "hope for the best" but moulded a beautifully shaped performance which was clearly a real interpretation of the work as a whole rather than the sum of it's not inconsiderable constituent parts.

The universally-acknowledged problems with the acoustics in the Royal Albert Hall served to cloud many orchestral subtleties, but luckily the close miking for radio broadcast has revealed a fabulous wealth of detail. The technology that we have around us now means that this performance will have been captured by countless music-lovers across the world - it is certainly the recording of Brian's stupendous creation that I will be returning to most often.

It was an incredible event which I feel immensely privileged to have been able to witness. Unfortunately I wasn't able to linger after the concert (hence the rather unceremonious "accosting" of Johan - the only face I recognised courtesy of the picture posted earlier in this thread) but it was a real bonus to know that so many knowledgeable and appreciative members from various forums were present to enjoy the same once-in-a-generation experience.

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 18, 2011, 04:10:26 PM
Absolutely agree with what Albion has posted!

The supreme moment for me-and I know others have commented about this too- was the end of the third movement.

I cannot resist quoting (again!) Malcolm MacDonald's description of that amazing cadence-

"From C major to D minor by way of F sharp, all in three triads: it is the sensational juxtaposition of C and F sharp that is so exhilarating. Brian has discovered his full powers. He can stride from one end of the tonal universe to the other in a split second: he can make a single cadence bear the dramatic weight of an entire movement. This is the victory of imagination over form."

This superbly written description so perfectly captures that sublime moment. I was sitting (in the front row of the stalls-lucky me!) listening in recognition and expectation and as that thunderous music poured forth across the RAH, and as the smile, nay, beam, spread yet wider across my face the soloists slowly walked down the steps onto the stage and  the massed choirs-all 800 singers-were suddenly and dramatically bathed in light and rose to their feet in unison. It really was breathtaking! It know that this sounds unbelievably hyperbolic but-to me-heaven itself appeared to be opening up.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 18, 2011, 04:51:27 PM
From the Facebook page of the BBC Proms 2011... Click to enlarge.


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 18, 2011, 05:02:26 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 18, 2011, 03:52:11 PM
Fittingly for such a massive symphony, I've written two blog essays about seeing the 'Gothic'!

Seeing the 'Gothic' (http://bgreinhart.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/seeing-the-gothic/) on the experience of being there as a newcomer to the music
On Ambition in Art (http://bgreinhart.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/on-ambition-in-art/), a meditation on when ambition works as an artistic trait and when it may not

Bear in mind, of course, that my blog is casually written for friends so there won't be score analysis or comparisons to Ole Schmidt or anything like that.  :) Be gentle :D


Reading matter for tomorrow. Although it is already tomorrow. I am late again... The 'Gothic' keeps me awake!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 18, 2011, 05:08:08 PM
I'm surprised that your view of the Gothic and of Brian has changed so much Johan - I thought you were already a total devotee!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on July 18, 2011, 06:49:24 PM
Hi everyone,

I'm new here.  Though I was unable to attend the performance in London, I did manage to make it to Brisbane for their Gothic late last year.  I am curious from those who attended the BBC Proms performance - how did the thunder machine sound?  I noticed in previous performances it was a thunder sheet but based on the excellent pictures posted above, this orange devise looks quite interesting.  Also, how were those low descending bass trombone pedal notes in the Royal Albert Hall (Movement III: Vivace in rehearsal 75)?  Looking at the score, it is unison fortissimo on three trombones plus two tubas and should have sounded like a roar but since I only had the radio broadcast to listen, I wasn't sure if it was a micing issue but otherwise had the sense of tremendous dread that's written in the score?  It really should have been deafening.  It seems the harmony is very interesting - xylophone playing c#min7 (C#, E, G#, B) but the low notes are A in the basses, and b flat in the low brass.  Timpani 1 keeps repeating b flat but harp is playing b natural.  It's a very unique passage.

Cheers,
Karim
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 18, 2011, 09:05:44 PM
Brian, that is a fabulous piece of writing. Two fabulous pieces. You have serious talent for the apposite image, and seriously good perceptive hearing, eloquently expressed with tangible passion and a happy dose of humour. I love it. Actually I'm a little jealous! But at least I got a tangential mention (and not as the 'flamboyantly gay man shouting 'Marvellous,'' before anyone asks...). Big kudos.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 18, 2011, 09:35:06 PM
Karim,

I remember you from the Brisbane Gothic! Glad to see you here, and hope you've enjoyed reading parts of this thread; obviously there has been a lot of interest over the past year with two performances of the mighty Symphony No. 1.

The passage from figure 75 through to 76 in Part One is quite astonishing. At the cited figure (75), the xylophone, 2 piccolos and 2 flutes have sextuplet semiquaver roulades emphasising the four note pitches, C#, E, G#, and B. The family of oboes are reinforcing three of those notes (omitting the G#) at the lowest pitches available on their instruments, with the respective clarinets in unison, as accented semibreves. Both harps are strumming a similar C#, B, C#, G#, C# chord every quaver. The cellists divided in four also spell out low C#, E, G#, C#, the upper note with an appoggiatura from an upper D# on each quaver. The low C# is held down as a sustained pedal note in the organ: thus a sizeable proportion of the orchestra is asserting a C# minor + 7th chord.

Against this, the timpanists are accenting a triad of B flat, D and F every quaver. The double basses are playing a low A every quaver (each with an appoggiatura from the B above). Violins and violas have a high-pitched, six-part division of clustered harmonics which include the G# in three octaves and the E, but also add a D# and an F# to the mixture as well. This essentially spells out 10 of the possible 12 enharmonic pitches of the octave, leaving out only C and G, and as Malcolm MacDonald has astutely pointed out in his three-volume survey of the symphonies, this locks the music into "an uncanny rictus: it is racing ahead, flat out, and yet the effect is absolutely static". Harmonic motion over this ostinato can only be asserted by brute force, and so after two bars from figure 75, the combined weight of the tenor trombone pedals and bass tubas re-introduce the chromatic figure inspired by Berlioz's Requiem, entering on their low B flat and successively proceeding "downwards by semitones to A, to G#, and finally to G natural" with "huge deliberation". All notes are now in play except for C, and again to quote Malcolm, "G becomes a dominant, and the music plunges, with both tonal and a kind of 'serial' logic, into C minor, and the climax that Brian has so brilliantly prepared". Thus the 10 bars that move from figure 75 to figure 76 and the new military "Meno Allegro. Grandioso" that ensues to bring this wonderful movement to its crux.

The late Harold Truscott has written illuminatingly on the longer Più Allegro passage of which this short 10-bar analysis is the culmination of (it actually commences 30 bars before at figure 72): and rather improbably in his long essay (published in 1978 as part of Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony: Two Studies by the Havergal Brian Society) relates it to the science of black holes. His point is essentially that once the music (and the attentive listener) has gone through this experience, there is no turning back; the course of the symphony has been irrevocably changed: "In some ways I hear it as perhaps the crucial passage in the entire symphony, for after it nothing is ever the same as it was. ... Once through, nothing is the same and we cannot get back. I have tried the experiment of listening to a point just beyond this passage, then stopping the tape, rewinding, and hearing the beginning again, or going back to some other previous point, and the result sounds strange and nothing like what I have just heard. I know of no word to describe the effect of this passage, in its context; "weird", "fantastic", "frightening", "disturbing" – none of these is adequate, although it contains them all. But its effect is something unique, far beyond any of these separately, and with other elements to which I could not put a name."

I've long found myself in profound agreement with Truscott's analysis: something deep lurks in the third movement waiting to be unleashed, and it generates a psychological point of no return that the music drives headlong through, motivating all that follows. I can see from the first-hand reports of those who were physically there in the hall that this effect was real in a way that it probably was not for those listening over the radio with rather less personal commitment to "being" there in spirit: the event was being live-blogged from the radio stream, and I was also following Twitter during the performance. I was thus completely unsurprised to see one of the establishment critics had switched his faculties firmly to the "off" setting, barely half an hour into proceedings, and who cross-posted some complete rubbish to both the hashtags "gothicsymphony" and "yawn". (* See postscript.)

As an ardent Berliozian, but perhaps more crucially as a non-Briton, it strikes me that the lack of recognition of Brian as a major composer by those in his native country parallels quite similarly the long-held mistrust for Berlioz in France, so that of late more of his admirers were or are non-French than French. Whether you like what Brian did or not (and as a result of the Proms performance I assert there would be plenty of new-found people in the former camp, as opposed to the critics in the latter), that is not any reason to belittle his achievements by such cursory dismissals as "not even third-rate" which in some cases seem not to have been based on anything so substantial as a single listening of the work.

Cheers, Philip

* Edited to add: I was wrong, the hashtags were "bbcproms" and "yawn". Here it is: Finally those moaning boring geeks that would write to me at Radio 3 every week get their wet dream Prom. #yawn #bbcproms (http://twitter.com/#!/tommyrpearson/status/92661892077719552)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 18, 2011, 10:40:52 PM
I've found it very interesting to see the response to my article on 5:4 - in terms of number of visitors as much as anything else. While the blog gets a high number of visitors each week anyway, it has simply gone through the roof since writing about the Gothic. There are several other individual occasions when this has happened, but the only time it's been with connection to a specific composer was when i wrote last year with a review/recording of Cardew's Bun No. 1. So it seems readers in the blogosphere are extremely interested to hear neglected works by equally neglected English composers!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on July 18, 2011, 10:50:20 PM
I'm not sure if this link has already been cited, but here are some further very interesting comments arising from the experience of The Gothic performance -

http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/18/havergal-brian-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/ (http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/18/havergal-brian-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/)

There is certainly a great deal of mileage in the idea of the work as an anti-symphony and the references to Berlioz struck a very loud chord with me, both in the sheer scale of conception and more especially in the seemingly arbitrary juxtapositions of what-appears-to-be unrelated material (I really must get down to re-reading volume 3 of Malcolm Macdonald's set where he addresses Brian's debt to his musical forebears).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 18, 2011, 10:56:05 PM
Quote from: Albion on July 18, 2011, 10:50:20 PM
There is certainly a great deal of mileage in the idea of the work as an anti-symphony and the references to Berlioz struck a very loud chord with me, both in the sheer scale of conception and more especially in the seemingly arbitrary juxtapositions of what-appears-to-be unrelated material (I really must get down to re-reading volume 3 of Malcolm Macdonald's set where he addresses Brian's debt to his musical forebears).

Those descending pedal notes in the third movement are a dead ringer for the 'Hostias' of Berlioz's Requiem. Strictly speaking, Berlioz's closing passage is Bb - A - G# - A - Bb, so not exactly the same, but one so rarely hears writing like that, that the connection is instantly made!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 18, 2011, 10:57:44 PM
Great posts here and I also very much agree with Albion's observations too and am sorry not to have met him on the great evening. I'm rather regretting going on holiday tomorrow and not being able to follow the thread - still, on second thoughts I'm sure that my wife will not mind one bit being dragged into an internet cafe in Slovenia to see what is going on in the Havergal Brian thread of the GMG forum  ;D On the other hand I negotiated the holiday dates to avoid 17th July - I am so glad that I did that.

For me, one of the most moving parts of the Gothic is (excuse lack of technical description) in the Vivace third movement (track 10 of the first CD of the Lenard recording), there is a kind of doomed processional, bookended by a very poignant fanfare motif.  I had to keep playing this over and over again in the car yesterday, with tears in my eyes. Brian evidently loved German culture and hated militarism - if the Gothic is somehow related to the experience of World War One (and part of me thinks how could it not be) then maybe it is reflected here.  It is the compassion and humanity of Brian's vision, completely devoid of sentimentality which I find so moving - and the whole symphony is shot through with it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 18, 2011, 11:42:53 PM
Albion,

you should read Harold Truscott! His thesis is that Brian's thinking is actually anti-symphonic, and the Gothic an anti-symphony, and he argues his case very persuasively.

5:4,

the use of the trombone pedals is not only an unusual feature of the Berlioz Grande messe des morts (indeed, how many times do you hear writing like that?) but Berlioz himself cited that passage in his Grand Traité d'Instrumentation et d'Orchestration Modernes : every subsequent orchestral composer worth his or her salt should have known of it through either the Strauss revision of the book or the Berlioz original.

vandermolen,

I hear the tread of Brian's war experiences particularly in the Judex, as well as the second and third movements of Part I. The fanfare motif of course appears in the Grandioso conclusion of the movement, transfigured into a huge canonic structure between the cornets, trumpets and trombones with side drums repeating a stern tattoo underlying the militaristic connection. This seems like a colossal victory, but it one that is almost hurled aside by the return to the opening music of the Scherzo with that decisive cadence into D minor.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 18, 2011, 11:43:59 PM
Hi Johan and the rest of you. Here are my edited individual tracks of the Gothic. High quality MP3s. I've also included CD artwork. CD 1 = tracks 1 to 5. CD2 = tracks 6 and 7. It sounds good.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ogxaa5c56ehp4
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 18, 2011, 11:54:49 PM
Quote from: Philip Legge on July 18, 2011, 11:42:53 PM
5:4,

the use of the trombone pedals is not only an unusual feature of the Berlioz Grande messe des morts (indeed, how many times do you hear writing like that?) but Berlioz himself cited that passage in his Grand Traité d'Instrumentation et d'Orchestration Modernes : every subsequent orchestral composer worth his or her salt should have known of it through either the Strauss revision of the book or the Berlioz original.

Absolutely right - i'll never forget getting my hands on a copy of Berlioz's Traité at the start of my first music degree, & devouring it! You can tell just how proud Berlioz was of writing that passage  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 18, 2011, 11:57:04 PM
The 'Gothic' is causing a lot of reactions, and not only here. The post Albion spotted is indeed very interesting. The writer struggles with the work, but is very open-minded. His piece also provides other (commented and quoted) links [below the three that really struck me]. There are a lot of people thinking about Brian's music in a serious way. This bodes very well for the future!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio3/2011/07/havergal-brians-gothic---how-w.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio3/2011/07/havergal-brians-gothic---how-w.shtml)



http://thomasinthepark.blogspot.com/2011/07/view-from-gothic.html (http://thomasinthepark.blogspot.com/2011/07/view-from-gothic.html)



http://classicalsource.com/db_control/db_prom_review.php?id=9379 (http://classicalsource.com/db_control/db_prom_review.php?id=9379)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2011, 12:02:50 AM
Philip - thank you for your comment.

David Nice wrote a predictably dreadful review of the concert for the Arts Desk - I say predictably because he also rubbished Miaskovsky's 6th Symphony - another epic masterpiece in my view, which I was privileged to hear a performance of in London last year (Jurowski).


There has been an interesting if sometimes vitriolic debate on the Gothic in the comments section (below the review) and I especially liked the observations by Simon Jenner (whom I had fascinating conversations with in a record shop in Brightom years ago) and also Dean Foster - who came from Arizona for the concert!

The link is here:

http://www.theartsdesk.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=4137:havergal-brians-gothic-symphony-bbc-concert-orchestra-bbcnow-brabbins-royal-albert-hall&Itemid=27
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 12:15:28 AM
I had given David Nice's little hole in cyberspace a miss, but I am glad you mentioned the reactions, Jeffrey. Only now I discover that the American gentleman I talked with and had lunch with (along with 9 others) at a Chinese restaurant the following day was science fiction writer Alan Dean Foster, who has been a member of the HBS for many years!


We're spoiled for Gothics here!


Oh, and thank you, Jeffrey and Philip, for some very illuminating observations!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 12:21:21 AM
P.S. I am struck how often the term 'Brian fanatic' is used. Are we the Jehovah's Witnesses of classical music? We simply want good music to get its due. Apart from that - history is made by motivated minorities.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 19, 2011, 12:29:37 AM
Hi vandermolen,

thanks for pointing out the comment by the well-known SF author Allan Dean Foster – it hadn't been there when earlier I looked at the review by Mr David (Not-Very-)Nice; I had visited the page because one of my friends also writes for The Arts Desk, and she had reviewed (http://www.theartsdesk.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=4142:beethoven-triple-concerto-messiaen-les-offrandes-oubliees-orchestre-philharmonique-de-radio-france-myung-whun-chung&Itemid=27) the Beethoven Triple Concerto and Messiaen's Les Offrandes Oubliées under the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France and Myung-Whun Chung; regrettably even she couldn't pass up the opportunity of obliquely having a dig at Brian's "chaotic uncertainty". Foster has also written one of the most incisive articles (http://www.havergalbrian.org/sym4_1.htm) on the other choral symphony by Brian, "Das Siegeslied" (just in case it needed spelling out, twenty-nine of the 32 are purely orchestral; there is also a "Solo Cantata" (original designation of the Symphony No.5) for baritone and orchestra).

Mr Nice's own comments in the discussion following his review are really quite telling, in how he truculently owns up to not doing his homework, and asking, so what? He seems to be defending the critic's right to be able to publish abroad his or her view wholesale, from a position of almost complete ignorance. And he only had a single listening to base his opinion on: others were content to issue a similarly damning comment on their own lack of critical discernment without having heard all of Part One.

Cheers, Philip

PS Thanks Johnwh51 for your uploads to MediaFire – I am attending to them currently, in the reverse direction!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 12:40:53 AM
Has anyone, apart from Luke, read the two pieces by our very own Brian? They are absolutely amazing. My day was already made, but now I am in heaven. I always say that the quality of an artist equals the quality of the reaction it elicits, because (s)he has the power to inspire.


Of course, there are stupid responses to the 'Gothic'. But there already have been several things said which either confirm thoughts I have long had (the link Brian-Joyce, for instance) or have taught me something I hadn't understood so well until now (Philip's remark about the relative triumph in the Vivace, which then suddenly is akin to what happens in the second movement of Mahler's Fifth).


http://bgreinhart.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/seeing-the-gothic
http://bgreinhart.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/on-ambition-in-art/

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 19, 2011, 12:43:30 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 12:21:21 AM
P.S. I am struck how often the term 'Brian fanatic' is used. Are we the Jehovah's Witnesses of classical music?

I just read that same line in the Daily Telegraph. The answer, of course, is that the Jehovah's Witnesses of classical music would be a whole hell of a lot more solicitous. :)

P.S. Thanks for the comments on my writing! Glad my inability to communicate in person after the concert has been somewhat redeemed  0:) . And Luke...

Quote from: Luke on July 18, 2011, 09:05:44 PMBut at least I got a tangential mention (and not as the 'flamboyantly gay man shouting 'Marvellous,'' before anyone asks...).

;D
(You mentioned him too of course - the "prom of the year" chap...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on July 19, 2011, 01:50:39 AM
Don't take any notice of David Nice (I know you won't).
I have had dealings with him on the Prokofiev message board, he is too full of his own self importance to be taken seriously.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2011, 02:10:57 AM
Quote from: Philip Legge on July 19, 2011, 12:29:37 AM
Hi vandermolen,

thanks for pointing out the comment by the well-known SF author Allan Dean Foster – it hadn't been there when earlier I looked at the review by Mr David (Not-Very-)Nice; I had visited the page because one of my friends also writes for The Arts Desk, and she had reviewed (http://www.theartsdesk.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=4142:beethoven-triple-concerto-messiaen-les-offrandes-oubliees-orchestre-philharmonique-de-radio-france-myung-whun-chung&Itemid=27) the Beethoven Triple Concerto and Messiaen's Les Offrandes Oubliées under the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France and Myung-Whun Chung; regrettably even she couldn't pass up the opportunity of obliquely having a dig at Brian's "chaotic uncertainty". Foster has also written one of the most incisive articles (http://www.havergalbrian.org/sym4_1.htm) on the other choral symphony by Brian, "Das Siegeslied" (just in case it needed spelling out, twenty-nine of the 32 are purely orchestral; there is also a "Solo Cantata" (original designation of the Symphony No.5) for baritone and orchestra).

Mr Nice's own comments in the discussion following his review are really quite telling, in how he truculently owns up to not doing his homework, and asking, so what? He seems to be defending the critic's right to be able to publish abroad his or her view wholesale, from a position of almost complete ignorance. And he only had a single listening to base his opinion on: others were content to issue a similarly damning comment on their own lack of critical discernment without having heard all of Part One.

Cheers, Philip

PS Thanks Johnwh51 for your uploads to MediaFire – I am attending to them currently, in the reverse direction!

Thank you Philip - I thought that the posting by Simon Jenner in the comments section was very perceptive too.
Best wishes
Jeffrey
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 19, 2011, 02:44:05 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 12:21:21 AM
P.S. I am struck how often the term 'Brian fanatic' is used. Are we the Jehovah's Witnesses of classical music? We simply want good music to get its due. Apart from that - history is made by motivated minorities.

I think "Brian fanatic" is quite a restrained description that I would be proud to claim for myself, compared to the accusation of being a serial pest capable only of nocturnal ejaculations, or to the following unflattering report thanks to David Hurwitz in his review of the Naxos re-release of the Bratislava Gothic on the Classics Today website:

Quote from: David Hurwitz
How vividly I remember the initial release of this set on Marco Polo some 15 years ago. There I was, clutching my copy of this legendary work having suffered previously through the hideous sound of a pirate issue of Boult's performance. Standing in line before me at Tower Records, Lincoln Center, was the New York chapter of the Havergal Brian Society. There were about 10 of them, average age about 70, men with bald scalps and lanky shoulder-length white hair hanging limply in the latest Benjamin Franklin style. All wore thick glasses, and a few had conditions that I thought had been cured by the turn of the last century: goiters, a harelip or two, and various poxes and skin diseases. None had credit cards, or a majority of their teeth, but most had, to put in kindly, olfactorily obvious personal hygiene issues.

Linky for the entire review (http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=8010)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on July 19, 2011, 02:50:53 AM
Taking the biscuit for facile negativity towards the Gothic performance is this gem from Jessica Duchen:

http://jessicamusic.blogspot.com/2011/07/why-i-didnt-go-gothic.html

I quote:

"I listened to a bit of it on Radio 3 - but I didn't buy into it. I didn't stay the course. What I heard was just enough to confirm my reasons for not going: I've had it with white elephants."

Now, if one is going to make a comment on a piece that cost its composer dearly in terms of time and effort, one might at least have the courtesy to listen to the bloody thing all the way through.

This music journalist's comments remind me of those extremely annoying book "reviews" to be found on Amazon:

"Well, I only read the preface, but that was enough for me to know that the book was a load of crap - and anyway, all my friends say it is"

Utter intellectual laziness; one wonders how many other "experts" critique this work after "listening to a bit of it".
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 03:07:54 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on July 19, 2011, 02:50:53 AM
Taking the biscuit for facile negativity towards the Gothic performance is this gem from Jessica Duchen:

http://jessicamusic.blogspot.com/2011/07/why-i-didnt-go-gothic.html (http://jessicamusic.blogspot.com/2011/07/why-i-didnt-go-gothic.html)

I quote:

"I listened to a bit of it on Radio 3 - but I didn't buy into it. I didn't stay the course. What I heard was just enough to confirm my reasons for not going: I've had it with white elephants."

Now, if one is going to make a comment on a piece that cost its composer dearly in terms of time and effort, one might at least have the courtesy to listen to the bloody thing all the way through.

This music journalist's comments remind me of those extremely annoying book "reviews" to be found on Amazon:

"Well, I only read the preface, but that was enough for me to know that the book was a load of crap - and anyway, all my friends say it is"

Utter intellectual laziness; one wonders how many other "experts" critique this work after "listening to a bit of it".


I was very very disppointed by this. I 'know' Jessica, from Facebook, and Twitter, we have exchanged mails. I love her book about Korngold, who is her 'Brian'. I think I'll say to her that she musn't equate a temperamental inability to like a certain music with the music itself. She is now doing to Brian what she deplores in those who damn Korngold.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on July 19, 2011, 03:11:21 AM
Quote from: Luke on July 18, 2011, 09:05:44 PM
. . . (and not as the 'flamboyantly gay man shouting 'Marvellous,'' before anyone asks...)

Oh, that provoked a great chuckle! : )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 03:13:36 AM
This is what I just wrote in reaction to her link on Facebook:


Dear Jessica. I was very very disppointed by this. I hope you will one day reconsider your verdict. I think you are equating a temperamental inability to like and understand a certain music (very valid!) with the music itself. You are now doing to Brian what you deplore in those who damn Korngold. But you're still young...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 03:37:34 AM
Answer by Jessica:


Johan, I know you came all the way from Holland specially for the performance and I'm very glad you enjoyed it. But I have to point something out: I don't have a verdict! I never said I did! I explained outright that I wasn't up for listening to the whole caboodle the other night and I quoted a number of other reviewers who did so. Sorry, but I am not the one getting muddled here. I think you are confusing a tongue-in-cheek blog post with an actual review.

My answer:


You do explicitly accord the 'Gothic' the status of Top White Elephant, without seriously listening to it. You had a preconception of the work, which was intensified by negative reviews, of which the one by David Nice doesn't merit the name - new to the piece, he thinks he can dismiss it out of hand after one listening -, and you then write the whole thing off, after the disappointment of the John Foulds World Requiem. I know it gets tiring to hear works touted as masterpieces. But I would have liked an informed rejection, based on serious listening. That's all.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on July 19, 2011, 03:41:33 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 03:37:34 AM
. . . I know it gets tiring to hear works touted as masterpieces . . . .

Great ambiguity, there! Though in context it is clear you do not mean to tire of hearing the works, but of the touting.  Tangentially: A lesson which . . . some others might heed ; )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 03:46:22 AM
!!!


Jessica:
Have you written your own review, Johan? If so, please send me a link. If not, would you like to write one as a guest post for JDCMB? (her blog)


I:


Very fair of you, Jessica. I think the best thing would be, if you linked to the wonderful review Brian Reinhart wrote. He heard the work for the first time, had an open mind and put down his impressions. Here is the link: http://bgreinhart.wordpres (http://bgreinhart.wordpres)​s.com/2011/07/18/seeing-th​e-gothic/ You're a writer like me. People inhabit different worlds. Brian Reinhart gives us another take, which perhaps could explain to those not convinced what the Brian lovers are hearing...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 03:49:09 AM
Jessica:


Great - I will update my post with that link. Thanks, Johan. "Chacun a son gout"...


I:


Exactly! Thanks, Jessica.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 19, 2011, 03:56:03 AM
 :o

When you first posted her comments, on the previous page of the thread, I was thinking "I should intervene in this..." turns out I already have!  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 04:29:20 AM
Actually,reading David Nice's bog & the comments that have been left is rather cheering. That Brian garners such enthusiam and revulsion really only underlines the unending fascination of his music. Nice sounds to me like the sort of person who would be going on about how wonderful the Gothic was IF everyone else was. I love the way he tries to show how open minded he is about neglected  'fringe' composers by singling out Langgaard's* 'Music of the Spheres' for praise,safe in the knowledge that every Tom,Dick and Ligeti's done that already.
As for me,I'll be rolling my cassette deck at 2pm for the repeat (of Gothic).
By the way,aren't 5:4's 'retro' FLACS & Mp3's wonderful. Thanks!

* please note,I'm a Langgaard fan,myself.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 19, 2011, 04:31:51 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 04:29:20 AM
By the way,aren't 5:4's 'retro' FLACS & Mp3's wonderful.

Yes, they are - and I've used a 90-second clip from 5:4's MP3 on my blog. Thank you, 5against4!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 19, 2011, 04:45:33 AM
Listening again today... I just can't understand how any serious listener couldn't be riveted by this music. Such extraordinary beauty, and striding elemental grandeur - as Brian said, you just cant help but be happy that this music even exists.

Will be interesting to see what the sound guys do to the rebraodcast, and presumably they'll do more if there's a CD release.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 19, 2011, 04:46:48 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 19, 2011, 04:31:51 AM
Yes, they are - and I've used a 90-second clip from 5:4's MP3 on my blog. Thank you, 5against4!
You're all very welcome! i'm glad the recordings are proving to be useful.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 04:57:49 AM
The 'retro' was,of course, a tongue in cheek reference to my use of a cassette deck in 2011. Amazingly,the postman delivered a pack of 10 TDK D90 cassettes today,by recorded delivery. Mind you,I gather you can still buy Super 8 cine,so that's nothing!
The cassettes are for my own personal library as I don't think there'll be much of a queue for them!
5:4 is doing a wonderful service for genuine musical lovers everywhere. Beeb take note (But maybe not?).
Here's to the cd release............
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 19, 2011, 04:59:40 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 04:57:49 AM
The 'retro' was,of course, a tongue in cheek reference to my use of a cassette deck in 2011. Amazingly,the postman delivered a pack of 10 TDK D90 cassettes today,by recorded delivery. Mind you,I gather you can still buy Super 8 cine,so that's nothing!
The cassettes are for my own personal library as I don't think there'll be much of a queue for them!
5:4 is doing a wonderful service for genuine musical lovers everywhere. Beeb take note (But maybe not?).
Here's to the cd release............

i'm intending to record the repeat broadcast on my Edison Wax Cylinder recorder - assuming i've got any blank TDK cylinders that is...  ;)

i began making off-air recordings in 1992, so obviously a large amount of my archive was originally on audio cassette. However, i've digitised them all now, & many of those recordings have appeared on 5:4 over the years. It's impressive to hear how those old recordings hold up against my modern recordings - granted, i was using a pretty fantastic machine (which i still have & use from time to time - cassettes are having something of a renaissance in some musical quarters) with top quality cassettes & Dolby S, but all the same, it proves just how transparent the fidelity of cassette recordings could be.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 05:27:23 AM
Yes,cassettes are apparently still popular for audio books & in use in some cars,I gather. For some older people the fact that you just pop them in and press play or record is obviously an attraction,I suppose. I quite like some retro technology. I even have a super 8 & 16mm projector somewhere,but haven't used them for ages. Also,short wave radio,but there's too much interference now & most stations are on the web. I have two old wind up Gramophones. (That reminds me.they need a polish!)
I must say,I was amazed that they are still selling Sony Walkman cassette players!

NB: Don't forget to wind you're edison player up!

NB2: THE REPEAT OF THE GOTHIC IS ON RADIO 3 NOW!
        (just in case anyone doesn't know)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 19, 2011, 05:38:24 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 05:27:23 AM
Yes,cassettes are apparently still popular for audio books & in use in some cars,I gather.

It's actually more the area of contemporary ambient & experimental electroacoustic music i was thinking of. There's been a real resurgence of interest in the cassette in the last 3 or 4 years, which seems to be going hand in hand with a renewed interest in vinyl - although, i'm never going back to that!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 05:40:20 AM
Wow! Just looked at you're website. That's impressive.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 05:51:32 AM
No,I liked Lp's when I was a teenager/in my early to mid 20's. In fact I loved my record player. But the last time I tried it was,Oh no,all those clicks and pops & the record sides seemed so short!
I DO miss those big record sleeves a bit though. I used to prop them up while I was listening to the music. Especially,some of the really 'groovy' ones on those rock albums.
I notice that some Led Zeppelin albums were released recently on cd with the cut out windows and that rotating wheel (Does it work?) And Jethro Tulls 'Stand up' Album wouldn't have been much cop without that huge 'pop up' figure! Not to mention King Crimson's 'At the Court of', and ELP's 'Brain Salad Surgery'. You needed some to buy it! I COULD go on,but I'm EXTREMELY off topic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on July 19, 2011, 06:48:37 AM
Funny you say that!  Was just visiting a friend who made me a CD of an old Melodiya LP of the Shostakovich Tenth . . . I was more curious than anything.  Haven't checked the CD itself yet, but certainly as it played, I heard all pop/click at the start of the first movement, and no pianissimo bassi ; )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 19, 2011, 07:00:55 AM
Malcolm MacDonald has gone off on holiday for a week so has not been able to join in any of the wider discussionin the press or online of Sunday's performance-even if he cared to do so!

I have been briefly in touch with him however and I very much hope that he would not mind me reporting here his one word comment on the performance-

"MARVELLOUS!"

No one-I would confidently contend-knows more about HB's music than Malcolm or has a greater claim to express a verdict on the performance.

No doubt we shall hear more in due course :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 19, 2011, 07:08:13 AM
Quote from: Malcolm MacDonaldMARVELLOUS!

Thanks for that Colin!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2011, 07:41:12 AM
At last - a sympathetic review in the British press - Geoff Brown in The Times today - not online yet as far as I can see.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2011, 07:49:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 19, 2011, 07:41:12 AM
At last - a sympathetic review in the British press - Geoff Brown in The Times today - not online yet as far as I can see.

...those nocturnal labours through the 1920s, writing under a green-shaded table-lamp, still gave us something vital and unique.  For this is a British work of such swirling fantasy, singular textures and heaving emotions that by the end you feel as if the top of your head has been blown apart.  Where did this work come from? What does it mean? It can only be understood, I think, as a tortured response to the Great War, as a vast edifice constructed in memory of civilisation's past and in outrage and fear of its future.  Brabbins backed by his batallions, made Brian's shock and awe triumphantly tangible.  I still wish the symphony was shorter, but this was definitely a night to remember
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 07:57:05 AM
About time. I'm listening to side 2 of my Dolby cassette copy right now. I turned the recording level down slightly for the repeat. It sounds 'MARVELLOUS' to me. And the tape's not bad too.
I will sort out Mp3's,FLACS & CD-r's as soon as I have a bit more time.
Hope there will be more.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 07:59:39 AM
I like the bit about the green shaded table lamp. What a difference to that silly 'Nice' review.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 19, 2011, 08:23:43 AM
Oh dear me. I feel a third essay coming on - like the second one, only tangentially related to the Gothic. This time, more centrally a manifesto for a certain approach to the art of criticism!

By the time I finish responding to this concert there may be a book :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 19, 2011, 08:33:47 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 19, 2011, 08:23:43 AM
Oh dear me. I feel a third essay coming on - like the second one, only tangentially related to the Gothic. This time, more centrally a manifesto for a certain approach to the art of criticism!

By the time I finish responding to this concert there may be a book :D

Go for it, Brian! I'll buy the book(and you can buy mine! ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 08:48:34 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 19, 2011, 08:23:43 AM
Oh dear me. I feel a third essay coming on - like the second one, only tangentially related to the Gothic. This time, more centrally a manifesto for a certain approach to the art of criticism!

By the time I finish responding to this concert there may be a book :D


Write on. I concur wholeheartedly with your views on ambition (and I 'hate' Frantzen).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 08:49:12 AM
That quote sounds okay, Jeffrey!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 19, 2011, 08:52:22 AM
The third essay is already only a few sentences away from completion. I shall sleep on it, edit it down from its precarious 1,700 word perch tomorrow, and then send it off to MusicWeb for a change in venue!

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 08:48:34 AM(and I 'hate' Frantzen).

It always makes me feel a little better when a fellow communicator also fails to understand all the madness over Franzen... not surprising, though, because your Wallace/Federer comment strikes perilously close to my stylistic ambitions...!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 09:04:56 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 19, 2011, 08:52:22 AMIt always makes me feel a little better when a fellow communicator also fails to understand all the madness over Franzen... not surprising, though, because your Wallace/Federer comment strikes perilously close to my stylistic ambitions...!

Haha!


(don't know why I added that 't' to Franzen's name)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 19, 2011, 09:12:02 AM
Seen and Heard's excellent review (http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/07/19/prom-4-christopher-gunning-who-sang-in-the-very-first-performance-experiences-havergal-brians-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/) is by a fellow who sang in the Gothic's 1961 premiere!

Perhaps the best lines:
"Brian was super-prolific. And curiously, he didn't seem to be quite as despondent as others that his music remained largely unperformed. For him, the glory was mainly in the industry of creation; beside that, all else mattered less. What a truly romantic notion of the artist."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 09:21:14 AM
Just reposting this from the Koechlin thread:


When the shattering climax of the third movement was reached, the lights went on, illuminating the choirs. It is a cataclysmic moment, the choirs stood up, the soloists entered from two sides, slowly walking to the front of the stage - it was as if the giant chords at that moment had woken humanity itself.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 19, 2011, 10:17:39 AM
Well, I wasn't there. I'll download the FLACs and will listen a few times, just to see what the fuss is all about. And if's ever performed in New York, I'll go.

But for the devoted admirers here, it seems fine for Brian (our Brian) to express his positive views on Brian (the other Brian) after only one hearing, but not fine for the London critics to express their reservations towards Brian (again you-know-who) after only one hearing.

I've heard the Gothic Symphony a few times on the Marco Polo CDs, and each time I found it grandiose, overlong, bombastic, disjointed, and banal. So go ahead, sharpen your knives. But I'm not alone, as witness some reactions to the review by David Nice:

QuoteComment Link  Monday, 18 July 2011 12:58 posted by Steve
Finally a critic with ears! Admittedly this wasn't a concert to stand through, as I did, but by the end of the piece I was grateful to be released for musical as much as physical reasons. Compositionally the piece is a mess, let's face it; fragmented and tangental with a sense of profundity that it neither possesses nor deserves. In fact, I couldn't help but feel that Brian's "He who strives with all his might, him can we redeem" nonsense was more an excuse for his insipid and indulgent symphony than a source of inspiration.

Comment Link  Monday, 18 July 2011 11:37 posted by Alec
Well said, David Nice. There's definitely a small strand of music lovers for whom rarity (and often sheer size and impracticability) is a qualification for unfairly neglected greatness. For these people, being part of a tiny minority of initiates makes them feel superior. So those of us who think Brian was actually just a fantasist of modest musical talent are by definition unable to understand his greatness.

JZ Herrenberg holds that he "simply wants good music to get its due." That's fine, but if that's the case, let's not bring Henry V into it, even in jest. I don't hold my manhood cheap or think myself accurs'd for having missed the thing.

I wouldn't mind the fervor towards Brian so much if it weren't that whenever aspersions are directed towards genuinely great composers like Mozart or Bach, the forum shrugs off such comments with utter indifference. After all, we are told, not everybody has to like everything, there's enough music to go around, and similar latitudinarian comments. And if someone (like yours truly) protests the arrogance of such reactions (we have been authoritatively told here that Bach has "feet of clay," not that's it's actually necessary to hear much of his music to make such a claim), he can be sure to be greeted with personal invective along the lines of "It's just my opinion, if I don't like it I don't like it, so what's your problem?"

But say a word against the all-holy Havergal Brian!!!!! and you prove yourself silly (cilgwyn), unserious (Guido), uninformed and unprofessional (Sgt. Rock), facile, rude, and intellectually lazy (Klaatu), truculent and ignorant (Legge), asinine (5against4), self-important (Hatoff), sad but amusing, predictable, pontificating, hopelessly out-of-touch (Luke), and similar ad hominem attacks. Case in point (5against4): "Without wishing to denigrate other reviewers [before he goes on to do just that], i was rather shocked to find so many of the other responses i've seen written in such a off-handedly dismissive fashion. I must say i was tempted to edit out Tom Service's asinine remarks, but wanted to preserve the totality of the evening! That boy [italics mine] will never learn..."

Naturally, the possibility that the reviewer is expressing a sincere reaction and is addressing genuine limitations in the music must be discounted.

Such defensiveness. Why can't those who don't buy into the cult be treated with the same respect as the fervent admirers? Why can't the Brianistas (with their "inside" allusions to "Malcolm" and "Bob") admit that their admiration for this composer is not free from resentment towards those who are indifferent to him? (Remember Elliott Carter's comment that half the reason he liked The Rite of Spring so much on first hearing was that half the audience walked out.) As the Guardian put it, the "Gothic Symphony is the ultimate cult neglected work by a British composer forgotten by all but the fanatical few."

Methinks the Brianites protest too much. And that such reactions towards the opposition do more harm to their composer than good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 19, 2011, 10:29:15 AM
(p)Sf, while I feel better-prepared, as a fellow Brian newcomer who hasn't yet listened to the symphony a second time, to let somebody else address your post, I do want to bring to your attention another first-time listener like myself who was able to skip the emotional response and fireworks of airy adjectives (sorry for mine!), and instead write a musical analysis of what he heard. The essay is here (http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/18/havergal-brian-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/) and it's thought-provoking, because the author found the symphony more "thought-provoking" than "good" or "bad"... it's more of a tentative listening guide than a review either way, so I've bookmarked it and will be reading it when I decide to give the "Gothic" another go. It does make a case for the piece being something more than empty blasting, though it doesn't return a full verdict, either.

EDIT: There is, however, some very silly speculation about whether Beethoven would have liked it, and a few more remarks about composers like Schoenberg which are, shall we say, unconventional at best.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 10:44:40 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 19, 2011, 10:17:39 AMI wouldn't mind the fervor towards Brian so much if it weren't that whenever aspersions are directed towards genuinely great composers like Mozart or Bach

Define "genuinely great" and how it actually applies to reality and not your own opinion.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 10:56:49 AM
Okay,Nice's review was very clever, I really enjoyed it and the Gothic symphony a mess and overlong. Are you happy now?
I just found his review badly written and immature. He didn't have anything interesting to say. It was just an excuse for allot of snide remarks and sniggering.I really don't have a problem with bad reviews of Brian,whatsoever,as long as they are intelligent and reasonably erudite. As far as I'm concerned you can say what you like about him. And,hang on, who said anything about him being 'holy'? I don't know of anyone here who actually prays to him!
This IS a Havergal Brian thread,so I suppose it's hardly a suprise that there are a few people who like him here.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 10:58:47 AM
Bad reviews? Bring 'em on!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 11:02:28 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 10:56:49 AM
Okay,Nice's review was very clever, I really enjoyed it and the Gothic symphony a mess and overlong. Are you happy now?
I just found his review badly written and immature. He didn't have anything interesting to say. It was just an excuse for allot of snide remarks and sniggering.I really don't have a problem with bad reviews of Brian,whatsoever,as long as they are intelligent and reasonably erudite. As far as I'm concerned you can say what you like about him. And,hang on, who said anything about him being 'holy'? I don't know of anyone here who actually prays to him!
This IS a Havergal Brian thread,so I suppose it's hardly a suprise that there are a few people who like him here.

Perhaps it is Sforzando who can't stand the fact that Brian is getting positive attention from board members? It sounds like to me that he has an inability to accept that Brian's music is gaining admirers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on July 19, 2011, 11:03:01 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 19, 2011, 10:17:39 AM
Well, I wasn't there.

I've heard the Gothic Symphony a few times on the Marco Polo CDs, and each time I found it grandiose, overlong, bombastic, disjointed, and banal. So go ahead, sharpen your knives. But I'm not alone, as witness some reactions to the review by David Nice:

JZ Herrenberg holds that he "simply wants good music to get its due." That's fine, but if that's the case, let's not bring Henry V into it, even in jest. I don't hold my manhood cheap or think myself accurs'd for having missed the thing.

I wouldn't mind the fervor towards Brian so much if it weren't that whenever aspersions are directed towards genuinely great composers like Mozart or Bach, the forum shrugs off such comments with utter indifference. After all, we are told, not everybody has to like everything, there's enough music to go around, and similar latitudinarian comments. And if someone (like yours truly) protests the arrogance of such reactions (we have been authoritatively told here that Bach has "feet of clay," not that's it's actually necessary to hear much of his music to make such a claim), he can be sure to be greeted with personal invective along the lines of "It's just my opinion, if I don't like it I don't like it, so what's your problem?"

But say a word against the all-holy Havergal Brian!!!!! and you prove yourself silly (cilgwyn), unserious (Guido), uninformed and unprofessional (Sgt. Rock), facile, rude, and intellectually lazy (Klaatu), truculent and ignorant (Legge), asinine (5against4), self-important (Hatoff), sad but amusing, predictable, pontificating, hopelessly out-of-touch (Luke), and similar ad hominem attacks.

Such defensiveness.

Methinks the Brianites protest too much. And that such reactions towards the opposition do more harm to their composer than good.

I can't quite understand why you have felt the need to contribute gratuitously to this thread, especially such a personally-offensive and fatuous addition: the music of Havergal Brian clearly does not impress you in the least - but then I don't really think that anybody will worry about that fact for too long.

Each of the individuals maligned by your good self clearly gets great pleasure from Havergal Brian's music and I am sure none would presume to force their opinions on others, but would merely wish to highlight the fact that with little-known composers the greater the research undertaken, the greater the ability to criticise with authority. It seems that none of the professional critics commenting on this most recent performance had even scratched the surface of the available literature regarding the work or the composer (Rapoport, Truscott, Macdonald, et al.). The reviewer may be "expressing a sincere reaction", but it might be questioned whether or not is a fully-informed one.

Mozart and Bach are quite "safe", I'm sure - but with sui generis composers like Brian, special advocacy is needed for them to obtain a hearing (whether deserved or otherwise) and that comes from organisations such as the Havergal Brian Society and the passionate individuals who form it's constituent body. I don't think that even the most fervent admirer of Brian would claim that he is a genius towering over the twentieth century, but instead would argue that he has his place and it is one which only greater familiarity will shape.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on July 19, 2011, 11:04:24 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 10:56:49 AM
This IS a Havergal Brian thread,so I suppose it's hardly a suprise that there are a few people who like him here.

Sure, but discounting a negative review of the concert 'because' it was written by some who "rubbished" a Myaskovsky symphony . . . no one objects to the Brian Appreciation mission of the thread, but (poco) Sfz's point about circling the wagons against anyone who doesn't dig the music, remains well taken.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 19, 2011, 11:04:49 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 19, 2011, 10:17:39 AM
But say a word against the all-holy Havergal Brian!!!!! and you prove yourself silly (cilgwyn), unserious (Guido), uninformed and unprofessional (Sgt. Rock)

My remark was directed solely against critics who don't bother to prepare for a hearing, and others who don't even bother to listen to the entire performance but still feel somehow qualified to dismiss it. That's not only lazy it's unethical. Whether anyone else likes Brian or not is utterly irrelevant to me as long as they've had the decency to actually listen to the music with an open mind.

I'm genuinely shocked by your post. I wouldn't have expected it from you. Seriously.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 19, 2011, 11:05:46 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 19, 2011, 11:04:24 AM
Appreciation mission of the thread, but (poco) Sfz's point about circling the wagons against anyone who doesn't dig the music, remains well taken.[/font]

Bullshit
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on July 19, 2011, 11:06:57 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 11:02:28 AM
Perhaps it is Sforzando who can't stand the fact that Brian is getting positive attention from board members? It sounds like to me that he has an inability to accept that Brian's music is gaining admirers.

Speaking as someone who knows (poco) Sfz personally . . . your remark is grasping at straws. (A polite way of putting it, I assure you.)

BTW, thanks for the chuckle, when you asked if had defined genuinely great. Link us up to where you define truly beautiful, there's a good chap.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 19, 2011, 11:09:50 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 11:02:28 AM
Perhaps it is Sforzando who can't stand the fact that Brian is getting positive attention from board members? It sounds like to me that he has an inability to accept that Brian's music is gaining admirers.

Why would this be the case? Why would he have a vested interest in people hating Havergal Brian?

Sforzando has a right to write the post he did, in the place he wrote it. It's not an ill-informed attack; it raises legitimate talking-points.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on July 19, 2011, 11:09:59 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 19, 2011, 11:05:46 AM
Bullshit

Hey, I thought your St Crispin's Day speech allusion witty and an agreeable degree of sentimental.  But then, I do like the Gothic, myself.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on July 19, 2011, 11:11:44 AM
But say a word against the all-holy Havergal Brian!!!!! and you prove yourself silly (cilgwyn), unserious (Guido), uninformed and unprofessional (Sgt. Rock), facile, rude, and intellectually lazy (Klaatu), truculent and ignorant (Legge), asinine (5against4), self-important (Hatoff), sad but amusing, predictable, pontificating, hopelessly out-of-touch (Luke), and similar ad hominem attacks.

Right, let's get this clear. I have no objection to anyone rubbishing "The Gothic" after giving it a proper hearing - preferably, more than one. But to brush the whole thing off as a "white elephant" after listening to "a bit of it" is facile and intellectually lazy. (I don't remember using the word "rude".)

That's not an ad hominem; it's a simple fact.

Now in your case, Sforzando, you've listened to this music several times, and find it "grandiose, overlong, bombastic, disjointed, and banal". I have absolutely no quibble with this at all, because you've given the work a fair crack of the whip, and therefore your opinion of it is at least as valid as mine, Malcolm Macdonald's, or anyone else's.

At the end of the day, Brian will undoubtedly remain a sidelined composer, because of this one work. Had he written just four of the shorter symphonies - 6, 8, 10 and 16 - he would undoubtedly have been given more credibility as a significant overlooked talent. But The Gothic has been his undoing. For all that I love the work, sometimes I really wish he'd never composed it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 11:12:10 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 19, 2011, 11:06:57 AM
Speaking as someone who knows (poco) Sfz personally . . . your remark is grasping at straws. (A polite way of putting it, I assure you.)

I don't need to know Sfz personally to know that he's contradicting himself with his comments. He may or may not remember his comments to me on the Messiaen thread where I said some harsh things about the composer and his music, but all of a sudden now he's complaining that he's tired of people jumping on other's who have made negative comments about Brian's music? Isn't he doing the same thing when he jumped on me for saying what I did about Messiaen? This is why I can't take his "points" seriously.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 19, 2011, 11:21:32 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 11:12:10 AM
I don't need to know Sfz personally to know that he's contradicting himself with his comments. He may or may not remember his comments to me on the Messiaen thread where I said some harsh things about the composer and his music, but all of a sudden now he's complaining that he's tired of people jumping on other's who have made negative comments about Brian's music? Isn't he doing the same thing when he jumped on me for saying what I did about Messiaen? This is why I can't take his "points" seriously.

For that matter, I remember when you barged into this thread yourself and said you thought HB was totally silly for writing an unplayable symphony. Glad you came around :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 11:23:48 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 19, 2011, 11:21:32 AM
For that matter, I remember when you barged into this thread yourself and said you thought HB was totally silly for writing an unplayable symphony. Glad you came around :)

But I never said I disliked the piece, did I? I liked the Gothic the first time I heard. In fact when I first bought the Naxos recording, I listened to it about 6 or 7 times in a row.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 19, 2011, 11:25:41 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 11:23:48 AM
But I never said I disliked the piece, did I? I liked the Gothic the first time I heard. In fact when I first bought the Naxos recording, I listened to it about 6 or 7 times in a row.

Well, good, but that's not what's at stake here; Sfz has a perfect right to dislike the piece and his post made me want to go back and validate or erase my sudden fear that the symphony really is bombastic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 11:35:55 AM
Sforzando, you know as wel as I that reputations have to be made, they don't grow on trees. Reputations are the outcome of a battle. Brian neglected to further his own cause, although it is uncertain whether he would ever have 'arrived'. Almost no composer ever was welcomed with open arms. Perhaps it is too late to try, retro-actively, to change the face of 20th century music. People are conservative and a change of the artistic landscape which the belated recognition of 'greatness' entails, is a bloody business. It can mean things will have to be seen in a different light.

If Brian's work is viewed as the important contribution to (British) music it is, it will cause a re-evaluation of other composers' works. I regard Havergal Brian as a fascinating and important composer. He has influenced me in my writing. I see similarities between his (late) style and James Joyce's. Brian is also related to J.R.R. Tolkien, another derided writer, in the way he single-mindedly explored his inner world and they share the experience of World War I. I think that if an artist is as divisive as Brian, it means he won't die. And so the battle continues.

Brian is no cult. He simply deserves a place in the canon (if that still has any use) and in the concert-hall (if there will be any in the Decline of the West). I'll do my damnedest to get him into both, by arguing and explaining his merits as cogently as I can.

As for the annoying 'Malcolm' and 'Bob' - the HBS has 216 members, I think. Brian lovers are few and far between. The Brian world is a village still. That's where the shorthand originates.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 19, 2011, 11:43:56 AM
The last thing i want to do is draw myself into a battle that i really don't think has anything to do with me, but the fact that (poco) Sforzando took a pot-shot means i feel i should at least respond.

i do NOT subscribe to the Havergal Brian "cult" (if such a thing exists). i must admit there are aspects of this entire discussion about the Proms performance that made me have reservations about even joining in in the first place, as i've encountered numerous 'factions' over the years, supporting an assortment of neglected figures in British music, & almost without exception, they have been people with decidedly one-dimensional outlooks. At which point, let me say immediately that i don't know any of the people involved in this Havergal Brian thread, so i wouldn't dare to throw any such accusation their way.

So i am in no way wanting to fan the flames of some delusional "blind love" towards Havergal Brian. i don't know the composer's music at all beyond this one piece. i can't honestly say i'm dying to hear more. i found the 'Gothic' intensely interesting, a fascinating interpretation both of the concept of 'gothic' as well as the notion of what a 'symphony' might be in the early 20th Century. Yes, i called it a "masterpiece" at the end of the article, & it's a word i've been wrangling with ever since i wrote it. But i think i'm prepared to stick by it, simply because it's a work i find myself still going around in circles trying to make sense of. Even if i end up disliking it, i'm grateful for the challenge & the opportunity to have something to grapple with; not many pieces offer that these days. Perhaps in a few years time i might retract my assessment; we'll see.

But i'm saddened to see my attempts to engage with the work deemed 'asinine'. i explicitly did NOT denigrate other reviewers at all (as pocosf claims) - i simply expressed surprise & shock that they hadn't done a bit of homework for what is, after all, more than the usual kind of musical challenge. To denigrate, according to my dictionary at least, is to "criticise unfairly", which i hardly think i did.

Oh, & yes, i myself called Tom Service "asinine", but as i said in the article, that was simply because he was practically getting an erection at the simple massiveness of the 'Gothic', which i continue to find stupid beyond belief.

& that's all i feel inclined to say on the matter. Truthfully, it makes me regret getting involved in this discussion in the first place if a few carefully considered comments can get rounded on with such unwarranted vitriol. It's precisely this kind of behaviour that's always made me steer clear of fora such as these. Perhaps it's time to retreat once more; life really is too short for this kind of senselessly elliptical argument.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 11:55:14 AM
5against4, I am sorry to read your post. I hope you will stick around. It is always important to stay calm and invest only so much energy as is needed. Learn when to ignore. But take valid criticism seriously (when it is there, of course!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brahmsian on July 19, 2011, 11:56:06 AM
Well, this will be my first post in the Havergal Brian thread.  I was a little curious as to the extensive activity in this thread, but then I remembered that the Gothic Symphony was just recently performed live.

I have not heard a single note of Havergal Brian's music, but I am now more than ever anxious to hear some of his music.   :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 11:57:31 AM
Quote from: ChamberNut on July 19, 2011, 11:56:06 AM
Well, this will be my first post in the Havergal Brian thread.  I was a little curious as to the extensive activity in this thread, but then I remembered that the Gothic Symphony was just recently performed live.

I have not heard a single note of Havergal Brian's music, but I am now more than ever anxious to hear some of his music.   :)


Ha! You enter at a beautiful moment. But do join us! I'll put up some nice pictures shortly.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on July 19, 2011, 12:02:00 PM
Quote from: 5against4 on July 19, 2011, 11:43:56 AM
The last thing i want to do is draw myself into a battle that i really don't think has anything to do with me, but the fact that (poco) Sforzando took a pot-shot means i feel i should at least respond.

i do NOT subscribe to the Havergal Brian "cult" (if such a thing exists). i must admit there are aspects of this entire discussion about the Proms performance that made me have reservations about even joining in in the first place, as i've encountered numerous 'factions' over the years, supporting an assortment of neglected figures in British music, & almost without exception, they have been people with decidedly one-dimensional outlooks. At which point, let me say immediately that i don't know any of the people involved in this Havergal Brian thread, so i wouldn't dare to throw any such accusation their way.

So i am in no way wanting to fan the flames of some delusional "blind love" towards Havergal Brian. i don't know the composer's music at all beyond this one piece. i can't honestly say i'm dying to hear more. i found the 'Gothic' intensely interesting, a fascinating interpretation both of the concept of 'gothic' as well as the notion of what a 'symphony' might be in the early 20th Century. Yes, i called it a "masterpiece" at the end of the article, & it's a word i've been wrangling with ever since i wrote it. But i think i'm prepared to stick by it, simply because it's a work i find myself still going around in circles trying to make sense of. Even if i end up disliking it, i'm grateful for the challenge & the opportunity to have something to grapple with; not many pieces offer that these days. Perhaps in a few years time i might retract my assessment; we'll see.

But i'm saddened to see my attempts to engage with the work deemed 'asinine'. i explicitly did NOT denigrate other reviewers at all (as pocosf claims) - i simply expressed surprise & shock that they hadn't done a bit of homework for what is, after all, more than the usual kind of musical challenge. To denigrate, according to my dictionary at least, is to "criticise unfairly", which i hardly think i did.

Oh, & yes, i myself called Tom Service "asinine", but as i said in the article, that was simply because he was practically getting an erection at the simple massiveness of the 'Gothic', which i continue to find stupid beyond belief.

& that's all i feel inclined to say on the matter. Truthfully, it makes me regret getting involved in this discussion in the first place if a few carefully considered comments can get rounded on with such unwarranted vitriol. It's precisely this kind of behaviour that's always made me steer clear of fora such as these. Perhaps it's time to retreat once more; life really is too short for this kind of senselessly elliptical argument.

Most of us appreciate your having joined in.  Nor do I believe that (poco) Sfz's comments were at all directed particularly towards yourself.

And . . . this is quite calm and rational objection.  It does not match at all genuine vitriol which has at times appeared even in this forum.  I think that on the whole, you'll find this a tolerant and intelligent community. Which, again, is why many of us are glad to welcome you.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brahmsian on July 19, 2011, 12:04:30 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 11:57:31 AM

Ha! You enter at a beautiful moment. But do join us! I'll put up some nice pictures shortly.

Excellent.   :)  I can see there is a lot of hot debate about Brian's music.  I think any discussion of sorts is very good.  I'll admit to have a soft spot for the Brian supporters, as there are sadly many neglected composers, and that is a shame in many cases.  I'll mention my favorite of the neglected, Sergey Taneyev (although to be fair, recordings of his music and his reputation have started to accelerate at a good pace now).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 19, 2011, 12:06:45 PM
I think you've missed the point slightly Mr. Sfz (I forget if you still like to remain anonymous or not!  ;))

It's not that I can't hear a bad word said about him - it's the arrogance of dismissing a work of this complexity, strangeness and magnitude after one hearing. I was surprised that none appeared to have heard it before on CD for instance, or familiarised themselves with the rest of his style or oeuvre. I think part of the problem is that Brian can appear to be doing something quite traditional in a rather vulgar, stentorian way, because the music seems so rooted in the 19th century. But it's a red herring: he's really a true modern and it takes time to adjust the ear and stop playing comparison games with Bruckner/Reger et al. The space he inhabits, that is his compositional approach, if not his technique or style is perhaps comparable to Ives and Janacek, i.e. doing strange things with quite traditional materials. And these two were also long neglected and maligned until people realised what they were really doing, how individual they were. I'm not saying Brian is a figure as significant as these two, but I make the comparison only inasmuch as I think his status is comparable to theirs.

I get similarly exasperated when people dismiss Bruckner out of hand (and so many do): having heard one symphony once, so many people I know write off the lot as dull, granitic, prolix behemoths, because they're so strange and slow paced in comparison to his contemporary symphonists, Brahms, Tchaikovsky and Dvorak. It doesn't bother me too much though, because Bruckner has received his due in the wider musical world (certainly not the case for a long time). Mahler also took a long, long time to be fully appreciated (and personally, I think the balance has gone too far in his re-evaluation!).

Again to reiterate, I have absolutely no issue with you if you have listened to it several times like you said, and still find it without a redeeming feature. I actually respect you very much for trying so hard! Just as I have no issue with people rejecting my beloved Ives, Barber, Goldschmidt, Kurtag, Feldman, Schoeck, Ruggles, Janacek, Finzi etc. so long as they have made an effort to engage with the work, and found that it doesn't do it for them. When that is the case, there is nothing to say: it's simply a matter of taste, inclination, background etc.

The reason no one gets upset when Bach or Mozart or Schubert are criticised, is because their status isn't exactly in question: there's not really a discussion to be had. One just looks on in pity, and doesn't concern oneself with what others are missing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on July 19, 2011, 12:08:18 PM
Quote from: Guido on July 19, 2011, 12:06:45 PM
The reason no one gets upset when Bach or Mozart or Schubert are criticised, is because their status isn't exactly in question: there's not really a discussion to be had. One just looks on in pity, and doesn't concern oneself with what others are missing.

QFT. For that reason, one doesn't exactly rankle in Beethoven's defense when a rabid Elgar-ophile thinks the English composer a "superior symphonist."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 12:14:16 PM
My friend Michiel Schuijer and three GMG members, just after the concert.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 12:16:23 PM
The same bunch...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 12:18:29 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 19, 2011, 11:25:41 AM
Well, good, but that's not what's at stake here; Sfz has a perfect right to dislike the piece and his post made me want to go back and validate or erase my sudden fear that the symphony really is bombastic.

He has a right to dislike Brian just like I have a right to dislike Messiaen. All is well in the world. 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: listener on July 19, 2011, 12:20:38 PM
Quote from: 5against4 on July 19, 2011, 11:43:56 AM

Oh, & yes, i myself called Tom Service "asinine", but as i said in the article, that was simply because he was practically getting an erection at the simple massiveness of the 'Gothic', which i continue to find stupid beyond belief
But remember the context: he's speaking to that mass of unknowns listening to the BBC, not the GMG.  Some evangelistic salesmanship is often required to prevent pre-mature turn-offs.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 12:23:09 PM
At the Queen's Arms. Vandermolen (Jeffrey) had already left, but the bespectacled Colin can be seen. The bald head belongs to music critic Richard Whitehouse.


My sister took these. The photos she took in the hall don't add much to what already has been released. I also have film footage of the final part of The Gothic, but that needs conversion to another format...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 12:31:20 PM
Johan, thanks for sharing these pictures. The GMGers look like a lively bunch.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: bhodges on July 19, 2011, 12:32:57 PM
Johan, thanks so much for posting the photos! Makes me wish I'd been there, and you can see the evening's energy in your faces.

I've been drifting in and out of this thread with interest - mostly because of the performance's "event" status, which it surely was. (I've not yet heard the Gothic but am planning to hear the BBC recording sometime during the next four days.) So I won't enter the "advocacy" arena since I don't know the piece. But I will say that for Royal Albert Hall to sell out in basically 24 hours' time says something...

And another welcome to 5against4, and hope you'll stick around and check out some of the other threads here.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 12:37:25 PM
More please!
To 5against4. If it was that bad here I'd be off!!! For a really catty,if not 'bitchy' thread,it would be hard to beat the old & thankfully,in my opinion,defunct 'Radio 3 message board. Just mentioning the name 'Robert Simpson' was enough to get you a verbal kicking. And quite nasty too!

Erm! Robert Simpson? (gulp!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 19, 2011, 12:49:10 PM
If 5against4 returns: how did you get such extraordinary quality sound in the Gothic FLAC/MP3? I just recorded the BBC Radio 3 'On Demand' playing of Prom 1 - Janacek Glagolitic Mass - and the sound is rather thin and ratty and compressed.
:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 12:56:58 PM
Hate to say this Brian,and I know some people might laugh,but my dolby D90 cassette copy sounds full bodied and lovely.
I very much doubt if it will compete with 5against4's FLAC/MP3's though. Which I HAVE downloaded,incidentally.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 12:57:57 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 12:37:25 PM
More please!
To 5against4. If it was that bad here I'd be off!!! For a really catty,if not 'bitchy' thread,it would be hard to beat the old & thankfully,in my opinion,defunct 'Radio 3 message board. Just mentioning the name 'Robert Simpson' was enough to get you a verbal kicking. And quite nasty too!

Erm! Robert Simpson? (gulp!)


You forgot - it's just 'Bob'. ;-)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2011, 12:58:26 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 08:49:12 AM
That quote sounds okay, Jeffrey!

I liked the bit about feeling as if the top of your head being blown apart!

And also the green lamp bit.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 19, 2011, 01:03:11 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 12:37:25 PM
To 5against4. If it was that bad here I'd be off!!! For a really catty,if not 'bitchy' thread,it would be hard to beat the old & thankfully,in my opinion,defunct 'Radio 3 message board. Just mentioning the name 'Robert Simpson' was enough to get you a verbal kicking. And quite nasty too!

Okay, we'll put my reaction down to n00b oversensitivity, shall we? It just seemed (to me at least, n00b that i am) a surprisingly cheap bit of reductio ad absurdum. i know that brand of offhand rudeness is pretty endemic on the web, but i don't go out of my way to cross its path!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 01:04:01 PM
Bob?! D***,I knew it was MY fault!!!
Regarding Brian's late hours. Didn't Brian mention hallucinating or imagining seeing Goethe or Berlioz,or someone,while he was at work? I seem to remember reading that somewhere. (And I mean HB,not OUR Brian,of course!)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2011, 01:30:51 PM
I asked a kindly member of the chorus to take a photo of the GMGers in the pub but I don't have a digital camera and will post when the film is processed.

My objection to the review of David Nice is not because he dislikes Brian's music but because the Gothic is so rarely performed [posted too early by mistake  ::)]I meant to say that I do not object to his disliking Brian's music but because of his arrogant ' I am right and you are wrong' tone and his suggestion (see comments section) that HB fans must have 'self-esteem issues'. He did much the same in a review of a concert featuring Miaskovsky's 6th Symphony which I was fortunate to attend last year. It is the intolerance I object to - not the fact that he dislikes Brian's music (although that is his loss I believe  ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 02:11:57 PM
Indeed! It felt almost like a personal attack. David Hurwitz,on the other,hand while he can be extremely annoying,does at least (usually) have some intelligent observations and an interestingly different slant on things. I remember his rather eccentric review of the Naxos recording of the Gothic. His OTT comments about Havergal Brian admirers (?) physical attributes were rather amusing,even if they were untrue (?!!!).
On the other hand his snide remarks about Jaqueline du pre were more than a little offensive. Although,I COULD see what he was getting at,even if he was just doing his usual grand standing & being a bit of a t***!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 19, 2011, 03:21:31 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 19, 2011, 10:17:39 AMBut say a word against the all-holy Havergal Brian!!!!! and you prove yourself silly (cilgwyn), unserious (Guido), uninformed and unprofessional (Sgt. Rock), facile, rude, and intellectually lazy (Klaatu), truculent and ignorant (Legge), asinine (5against4), self-important (Hatoff), sad but amusing, predictable, pontificating, hopelessly out-of-touch (Luke), and similar ad hominem attacks.

If you will kindly point out exactly where I accused Mr Nice of being ignorant then I will own your piece of criticism. However, I think a reading of my post will confirm that I described Mr Nice's assertion on behalf of jaded critics having the right to make uninformed comments as being the position of ignorance. I will own up to use of the word truculent, which in my parlance normally means rude defiance. Arguably the closest to an ad hominem I used was referring to him as "Mr David (Not-Very-)Nice", but I also think that is a fair reading of his review in light of his confession in the comments.

Andrew Clements in the Guardian has heard the Gothic multiple times in addition to other Brian works, and I haven't written him off as ignorant, though his rather steadfast, mostly anti-Brian position over the years is evidence that he and I hear different things in different composers. That's not a surprise, but neither is it a sin of heresy requiring condemnation from me as some Brian fanatic insisting on excommunicating the infidels; I simply disagree with his opinion. He at least knows what he's writing about.

I appreciate it cannot be easy for reviewers to come to a work dead cold and be obliged to write intelligent commentary for the consideration of a large readership, and this becomes especially fraught when two separate factors come into play: (1) the work is a world première, so by definition no one has heard the work performed before, and (2) the critic has never heard another representative work by the same composer, and so has no other experience to bring to the table that would give insight into the work at hand (the default critical procedure is then to compare the composer to other more familiar composers, regardless of whether such comparison is sensible or not). The first excuse is simply not available to Mr Nice, and has not been for half a century; and as for the second, with the ample number of recordings of Brian's symphonies which are readily available (e.g. Mackerras' 7th on EMI probably the finest, and the new Brabbins disc of 10 and 30 which would additionally have given insight into the Proms conductor's methods) and which Mr Nice could have consulted to remedy his unfamiliarity, the fact that he then rhetorically throws the remaining 31 symphonies under the bus with even less reflection makes his position look more like sheer laziness.

Several years ago I arrived at a concert of Mendelssohn's Elijah having lost my wallet en route, and unable to purchase a ticket at the door as originally intended, threw myself on the mercy of the concert promoter (who happened to be a friend from many years previous). He said, fine, but would you write me a review for the Arts pages of his magazine? I shuddered at the thought of the vested interests involved, but swiftly agreed in order to hear the concert (once I had phoned the bank and cancelled my cards). It is also very much to the point that while I had some knowledge of the oratorio and had heard or performed in excerpts of some popular movements from it, in three decades I had somehow escaped being exposed to a full performance of the complete work.

So did I write uninformed nonsense about matters I did not have knowledge of? I could have written a long ranting diatribe on Mendelssohn's conservative attachment to an art form that has in our time expired and gone to meet its maker — and could then go on to wittily describe the regular exhumation of Handel's Messiah by every orchestra and its dog each Christmas as an undead, zombie oratorio that won't lie down when it should have been long dead and buried. However, it was hugely more fructifying to write about the elements and quality of the performers and their performance, rather than be bogged down with some dialectic about a subject which I assumed the interested readership would actually have a better acquaintance with, if not with the particular concert happenings that I was able to witness.

I will gladly respect the opinion of someone who has gone at least some decent way to making acquaintance with the music before judging it, as you obviously have, even if I choose to disagree with the conclusions you reach. I do not see why I should pay respect to some critics who have not even made a fair attempt to remain objective. As others here have pointed out, some non-critics have displayed a higher degree of thoughtfulness in approaching a review of the work than the professionals.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 03:40:07 PM
Andrew Clements isn't one of my favourite critics,because like so many newspaper critics,he tends to 'toe the establishment line'. That aside,he usually explains why he doesn't like something or what's wrong with it in a reasonably intelligent way. Although,I personally find his reviews a tad superficial. Hurwitz,irritating as he can be,has more insight,and when he's not too busy showing off,really is a quite interesting reviewer & I often refer to his reviews when I'm thinking of buying a particular cd or looking for a recording of a particular work.
(I am singling out 'the Hurwitz'.as he has been called, because I know that he annoys some people!)
Sforzando,on the other hand, was 100% pure vitriol.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 19, 2011, 04:09:57 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 19, 2011, 02:11:57 PM
I remember his rather eccentric review of the Naxos recording of the Gothic. His OTT comments about Havergal Brian admirers (?) physical attributes were rather amusing,even if they were untrue (?!!!).

In fact it's been quoted at least twice in this thread (which is now well over 1600 posts, the majority having been written post-December last year), most recently by me just a couple of pages back (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1453.msg537372.html#msg537372), also providing a link to the rest of the review (http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=8010) which I think is much more to the point. Hurwitz was purportedly describing the characteristics of the New York chapter of the Havergal Brian Society, and its interesting how the HBS itself occasionally has its critics: advocacy for a particular composer (when there are such societies for any composer under the sun) must be regarded as "special pleading"; its members are "fanatics" or "out of touch", etc. etc.

Incidentally, seeing as my photo has been underneath my name for some time now, I think that would class me as an outlier in HBS terms:

And I'm not going to even rise to the bait of "personal hygiene issues".
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 04:15:25 PM
Quote from: Philip Legge on July 19, 2011, 04:09:57 PMIncidentally, seeing as my photo has been underneath my name for some time now, I think that would class me as an outlier in HBS terms:

  • Age: 30 years less than the supposed average according to Hurwitz
  • Male: guilty as charged (but Allan Dean Foster has a theory on that)
  • Bald on top with lanky shoulder-length white hair: not yet white, obviously (and baldness isn't in the family). Occasionally I do let it grow a little, but rarely to shoulder length!
  • Thick glasses: the prescription of my glasses is –2, which is fairly mild
  • Goiters, harelip, poxes, skin diseases: ok, very minor bouts of eczema (it's a common accompaniment to asthma in this part of the world)
  • Credit card: yes (cf. the story immediately above of having to put it "on hold" having lost my wallet prior to a concert)
  • In possession of majority of teeth: yes

And I'm not going to even rise to the bait of "personal hygiene issues".

I would hate to read what Hurwitz thinks of Allan Pettersson fans. ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on July 19, 2011, 05:39:03 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 04:15:25 PM
I would hate to read what Hurwitz thinks of Allan Pettersson fans. ???

That's rather a fun thought!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 05:46:10 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 19, 2011, 05:39:03 PM
That's rather a fun thought!

:P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on July 19, 2011, 05:47:08 PM
Mind you, I'm in the habit of not taking Hurwitz at all seriously . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 05:49:52 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 19, 2011, 05:47:08 PM
Mind you, I'm in the habit of not taking Hurwitz at all seriously . . . .

Nor am I...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 19, 2011, 06:17:08 PM
I do apologise if I annoyed anyone by my effrontery in referring to the author of several books on Havergal Brian as 'Malcolm' rather than 'Malcolm MacDonald' or 'Mr. MacDonald' or plain 'MacDonald' ;)

I should point out in my defence that the casual and offhand use of the christian name was in my second reference to someone whose full name had been used earlier in my post and that, as an old friend, I am accustomed to referring to him in this fashion.

I had, inadvertently, forgotten that in my post I was not actually addressing a committee meeting of the Brianista Club of initiates :)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 19, 2011, 06:32:23 PM
I feel almost like I'm inheriting the mantle of our dear departed friend Iago, who knew just when to press the button that could send a whole thread toppling into consternation. Thanks, y'all. Keep those cards and letters coming. Can't reply to everyone, but just a few:


Mirror Image 1617: I have no problem with Brian's music getting admirers; I have a problem when the admirers act as if anyone skeptical of Brian's abilities is a benighted philistine.

Albion 1618: Nothing gratuitous about my comments at all. They were all occasioned by the attitudes expressed by others commenting previously on the thread. Whether the reviewers did or did not do their homework is secondary in my opinion. The music must make its own case, and if it doesn't, no amount of background reading is going to substitute. But a well-sneered post; I enjoyed it.

Brian 1623: Thank you for not interpreting my comments defensively.

Mirror Image 1626:  I will quote you some of my comments on that Messiaen thread: "I don't much like Messiaen either. I find him often garish, vulgar, and long-winded, and Boulez's description of the Turangalila as "brothel music" seems to me spot on. I like some of his work like the Quatuor, the Trois Petites Liturgies, and the Des Canyons, but I rarely turn to this composer for enjoyment. . . . . I have to admit that of all Messiaen's works, none seems as indigestible to me as St. Francis, and whenever I've dipped into it I've always found it very static and frankly rather dull. On my last trip to Paris in 2004, it was being mounted at the Bastille and I thought of going, but since it started at 5 pm and seemed likely to last till midnight, I demurred." If I have ever "jumped" on you, it has been for rejecting or not being willing to confront music that by your own admission you have not heard - which is similar to the complaints that Sarge, Klaatu and others have made towards Brian's detractors.

JZ 1630: I think that opening paragraph is the most cogent reply to my thread yet, though others have made similar points. There are a lot of interesting ideas here that I would want more time to address.

5:4 1631: I did not call your remarks "asinine." I said you called someone else asinine, and referred to him as a "boy." The word "denigrate" has a variety of definitions, including: "to speak damagingly of; criticize in a derogatory manner; sully; defame; to treat or represent as lacking in value or importance; belittle; disparage."  QED.

Guido 1637: In 1589 you said: "I just can't understand how any serious listener couldn't be riveted by this music. Such extraordinary beauty, and striding elemental grandeur - as Brian said, you just cant help but be happy that this music even exists." I myself feel neither riveted by this work nor particularly happy at its existence; consequently in your eyes, I am evidently not a serious listener. If it helps, I did feel happy this morning listening to the soprano/tenor duet from Bach's Cantata #112.

Mirror Image 1641: We all have a right to like or dislike anything we want. That has never been in dispute.

vandermolen 1653: The reason you first gave for objecting to David Nice's review has nothing to do with what you are stating in this post. Originally you stated merely, "David Nice wrote a predictably dreadful review of the concert for the Arts Desk - I say predictably because he also rubbished Miaskovsky's 6th Symphony - another epic masterpiece in my view, which I was privileged to hear a performance of in London last year (Jurowski)." As for David Nice's review, it is certainly strongly worded, snide even, but more in the sense of someone who enjoys a nice knock-down argument than someone who is putting out his view as the last word. If Nice were simply posing as an ex cathedra know-it-all, he wouldn't have responded to his readers as he does several times in the comments section, taking pains, for example, to compliment Simon Jenner.

Philip Legge 1655:  A very well considered comment. Thank you. Welcome to the forum. Can't say I much like Elijah, however.

cilgwyn 1656: "Sforzando, on the other hand, was 100% pure vitriol." Thanks. I prefer not to do things by halves.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 19, 2011, 06:56:16 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 19, 2011, 06:32:23 PMMirror Image 1617: I have no problem with Brian's music getting admirers; I have a problem when the admirers act as if anyone skeptical of Brian's abilities is a benighted philistine.

Reflecting back on your post, I understand your criticism and I agree that people need to accept that not everybody enjoys the same composers. I haven't read any of the concert reviews for this performance, but, then again, I don't really need to: I like the Gothic, so only naturally will I hear this performance.

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 19, 2011, 06:32:23 PMMirror Image 1626:  I will quote you some of my comments on that Messiaen thread: "I don't much like Messiaen either. I find him often garish, vulgar, and long-winded, and Boulez's description of the Turangalila as "brothel music" seems to me spot on. I like some of his work like the Quatuor, the Trois Petites Liturgies, and the Des Canyons, but I rarely turn to this composer for enjoyment. . . . . I have to admit that of all Messiaen's works, none seems as indigestible to me as St. Francis, and whenever I've dipped into it I've always found it very static and frankly rather dull. On my last trip to Paris in 2004, it was being mounted at the Bastille and I thought of going, but since it started at 5 pm and seemed likely to last till midnight, I demurred." If I have ever "jumped" on you, it has been for rejecting or not being willing to confront music that by your own admission you have not heard - which is similar to the complaints that Sarge, Klaatu and others have made towards Brian's detractors.

I'm sorry, I must have you mixed up with somebody else here. :-[ My apologies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 09:59:21 PM
@Sforzando I await your further thoughts with interest.

I absolutely recognise your dislike of Messiaen's St Francis, btw. I sat through the work when it was performed in Amsterdam last year - the first and final half hours or so alone were enjoyable, but everything in between was sleep-inducingly thin and completely undramatic. Thus runs my verdict.

And here's the crux of the matter, which also concerns your dismissal of The Gothic - how to discriminate between a rejection based on temperament and one based on arguments, as the latter is informed by the former? With accepted classics thought and feeling are in accord, simply because enough people through a period of time started to have the same conviction. I won't touch on the problem whether quality is intrinsic to a work or not...

I am absolutely convinced that The Gothic is a great work, both because I can feel it and because I can give aesthetic reasons for thinking so. If enough people are persuasive, tenacious and influential enough, this conviction will turn into orthodoxy: Brian will be seen as a great composer, and his detractors as people who either have perfectly valid temperamental reasons for disliking this particular composer or, when they turn nasty in their dislike, are simply ignored. (I personally don't particularly love Bach's vocal works, but I can see and hear their mastery). This, then, is the battle that still has to be fought, almost 40 years after Brian's death. The end result must be that people will come to accept that Brian has basic merit, because even that is still doubted. (Messiaen's importance is not contested). When that is achieved, there won't be any 'Brianistas', but simply music lovers with a liking for a certain great composer, who won't need to defend him, nor to fight for him.

We're not there yet.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 19, 2011, 11:18:52 PM
Sforzando,

Perhaps you could look at the David Nice Arts Desk review for Myaskovsky Symphony No 6 (Jurowski) - actually the worst review of any concert I have attended. In reaction to the criticisms of his views (including mine) Nice wrote "Increasingly it's best not to comment to hostile 'I know best comments'". This is very hypocritical of him as it's exactly what he does himself! I agree that he has responded more to the HB comments thread and that he does acknowledge Simon Jenner's balanced and perceptive contribution. Nice's suggestion that those who are interested in and seek to promote lesser-known composers have some kind of personality disorder is both nasty and vindictive.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Wanderer on July 19, 2011, 11:39:34 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 19, 2011, 11:18:52 PM
Nice's suggestion that those who are interested in and seek to promote lesser-known composers have some kind of personality disorder is both nasty and vindictive.

And, more importantly (regarding the criticism towards his reviews), beside the point.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 19, 2011, 11:58:36 PM
Some of the critical reviews of the Gothic performance have, in my opinion, been an absolute disgrace. I'm no Brianite as many of you will have gathered. My LSSO connection has at least given me some interest in the man's work and I enjoy reading this forum. I find some of his music very appealing but - to my ears at least - somewhat patchy and inconsistent. Returning to the reviews, to be so dismissive of a 2 hour "musical monster" is disgusting. Brian should at least be given the courtesy of acknowledgement for even attempting to write such a piece. Some high level compositional skills are certainly required! My review (if asked) would have raved about the conducting, the sheer triumph of bringing it off with very few flaws and the fact that the audience were carried with it. The third point speaks volumes. Something else struck me that nobody else has mentioned. Having been involved in loads of performances with choirs of 300 including children and orchestras of 100 (chamber groups compared to HB!) it's very difficult to get through even 30 minutes without mutes being dropped, bows hitting music stands, coughing fits setting in and scores being fiddled with and dropped. The 1,000 performers must have been entranced to have been so quiet when the need arose. Silence in music is very special and this was certainly triumphantly achieved. I would also have to suggest that, unlike yourselves, I do feel that there are some passages that are just too long and maybe an edit down to an 80 minute symphony would have given the piece even further impact. What really pleases me is that the HB fans on this forum, who hold this piece very close to their hearts, have had the chance to witness what happened at the RAH on Sunday night. Take no notice of the critics. I remember some years back when the LSSO had a series of good reviews and one really bad one for a performance we gave of The Child of Our Time. The critic said that children shouldn't even attempt such a piece. Tippett - who was conducting that night - told him that he had missed the point entirely. The work has some deep messages that children should learn and in his view those taking part would never forget the experience. I certainly remember it very well indeed and it started a life long love of Tippett and his music. Tippett 1 Critics 0. Positive criticism needs to be welcomed. Destructive criticism serves little purpose. For myself the opening 4 bars (a statement of intent that we are confidently striding off on a journey), the manic xylophone passage and the last two minutes (blimey, where did THAT come from?) made the experience very worthwhile. I might just listen to it again after my brecky.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 20, 2011, 12:14:13 AM
This, from Sfz, was @ MI

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 19, 2011, 06:32:23 PM
If I have ever "jumped" on you, it has been for rejecting or not being willing to confront music that by your own admission you have not heard - which is similar to the complaints that Sarge, Klaatu and others have made towards Brian's detractors.

Exactly. So where is the problem? That complaint is the only one I was making too, the one I think everyone was making - negative reviews are fine when the reviewer has actually listened to the work and bothered to try to understand it. But when the reviewer is making high-and-mighty value judgements (hence my 'pontificates' and the like, which you quote) without actually having done the piece and its composer the courtesy of listening to it, or without even bothering to check their facts, are those that love the work, who passionately feel its quality, not entitled to feel aggrieved on its behalf? The above quotation suggests that you agree, so where's the beef?

You find the Gothic bombastic and so on - that is fine. But I find [GMG's] Brian's penetrating thoughts on Ambition, prompted by the Gothic, far closer to the truth. Here is no bombast, no calculating attempt to please the masses (as, if one wanted to, one could say of e.g. certain Mahler symphonies). Here is a work the man had to write, written, as Brian says, almost for the drawer, against all logics of money and career an practicality but out of an inner compulsion.  I detect nothing in it but a laudable ambition to fulfill his own goals. I actually find it a very humble work, believe it or not, in the sense that the composer is submitting to what he has to do even though he knows he will probably 'lose'. None of that is a guarantee of quality, of course, but personally I find in it a great vision and a profound utterance. By the time we reach the last 15 or 20 minutes, the music is on a level as exalted as anything I know. No - the music has lifted me, as a listener, into levels that very few other pieces have ever lifted me. That is why I value it so highly.

So. It is not Brian's finest symphony by most measures, in fact, at least certainly not his most typical or mature, but its very scale and heaven-storming against-all-odds ambition put it in a class of its own, and it is his greatest work in a much bigger sense. I feel like a bit of Robert Browning here:

Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp,
Or what's a heaven for? All is silver-grey,
Placid and perfect with my art: the worse! ...

Give me the perhaps flawed but laceratingly vital and human aspirations of Brian's Gothic or Tippett's Vision of St Augustine or Janacek's Glagolitic Mass over many a more 'placid and perfect' and finished piece any day!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 20, 2011, 12:24:45 AM
Please forgive me if this has already appeared on the forum. Well worth a look.
http://youtu.be/-4lC9LzJ_LI
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 12:42:08 AM
Thanks, John! Colin (Dundonnell) put this link on Facebook last night, but I forgot about it.

I have footage of parts of the closing minutes of the performance, two files with excellent sound, courtesy of my sister who had a good camera with her. The files are in Apple's mov. format and 600MB and more than 2GB respectively, far too big for me to upload. There are two things I could do - convert them (for which I need software I don't have) or share them in another way...

The Opera browser, which I use, has the possibilty of turning your computer into a server for file-sharing. It's called Opera Unite. People will be able to access my computer. If I use that route, people here will have to download the free Opera browser and turn this function on.

I'll drink my morning coffee and see what members think.

P.S. My internet connection is quite patchy at the moment. I don't know whether that will impact the usefulness of Opera Unite...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 20, 2011, 12:58:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 12:42:08 AM
Thanks, John! Colin (Dundonnell) put this link on Facebook last night, but I forgot about it.

I have footage of parts of the closing minutes of the performance, two files with excellent sound, courtesy of my sister who had a good camera with her. The files are in Apple's mov. format and 600MB and more than 2GB respectively, far too big for me to upload. There are two things I could do - convert them (for which I need software I don't have) or share them in another way...

The Opera browser, which I use, has the possibilty of turning your computer into a server for file-sharing. It's called Opera Unite. People will be able to access my computer. If I use that route, people here will have to download the free Opera browser and turn this function on.

I'll drink my morning coffee and see what members think.

P.S. My internet connection is quite patchy at the moment. I don't know whether that will impact the usefulness of Opera Unite...
If you're sufficiently savvy to do it, i'd recommend setting up a torrent. While my broadband is sufficiently fast that uploading several Gbs really doesn't take that long anymore, there are times when a torrent is easiest & much less time-consuming. i recorded a 12-hour webcast a few years ago, resulting in a 7.15Gb wav file - setting up a torrent was really the only decent way of sharing it. Of course, all of this is assuming that frequenters of this forum are au fait with the dark arts of peer-to-peer file sharing...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 20, 2011, 01:05:56 AM
I seem to have been severely affected by the Gothic. I was compelled to put this on Facebook 5 minutes ago:
"Just listening again to the 3rd movement of Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony from the Proms performance on Sunday. Tremendous playing and wonderful music. Martyn Brabbins in superb form. Best version in my collection by far. Beats Lenard, Boult and the live Brisbane recording by quite a margin. Can't get it out of my head!!!!!"
Maybe I will call for an ambulance. By the way, is that a contra bassoon in the bass line at 6' 30'' in the 3rd movement? It has tremendous presence and bite. The word bite is rarely associated with contras.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 01:07:18 AM
Quote from: 5against4 on July 20, 2011, 12:58:25 AM
If you're sufficiently savvy to do it, i'd recommend setting up a torrent. While my broadband is sufficiently fast that uploading several Gbs really doesn't take that long anymore, there are times when a torrent is easiest & much less time-consuming. i recorded a 12-hour webcast a few years ago, resulting in a 7.15Gb wav file - setting up a torrent was really the only decent way of sharing it. Of course, all of this is assuming that frequenters of this forum are au fait with the dark arts of peer-to-peer file sharing...


I am quite savvy, so I could do that. But Opera Unite works like a torrent and the only thing you have to do is install the browser, which could be the easier route for many...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 01:08:06 AM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on July 20, 2011, 01:05:56 AM
I seem to have been severely affected by the Gothic. I was compelled to put this on Facebook 5 minutes ago:
"Just listening again to the 3rd movement of Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony from the Proms performance on Sunday. Tremendous playing and wonderful music. Martyn Brabbins in superb form. Best version in my collection by far. Beats Lenard, Boult and the live Brisbane recording by quite a margin. Can't get it out of my head!!!!!"
Maybe I will call for an ambulance. By the way, is that a contra bassoon in the bass line at 6' 30'' in the 3rd movement? It has tremendous presence and bite. The word bite is rarely associated with contras.


Yes, that's the double bassoon. A really grinding noise, isn't it? You could hear it clearly in the hall, too. Wonderful!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 20, 2011, 01:10:16 AM
Johan, I read your post with interest. The videos are very welcome. Would you really give me access to your computer? Very kind. Thank you. PS Can you email me your bank account log in details, please?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 01:11:22 AM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on July 20, 2011, 01:10:16 AM
Johan, I read your post with interest. The videos are very welcome. Would you really give me access to your computer? Very kind. Thank you. PS Can you email me your bank account log in details, please?


Just wait a sec.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 20, 2011, 01:17:26 AM
Hurry up Johan. I'm off to Valkenburg and Wassenaar in 2 weeks time and need some holiday spends!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 20, 2011, 01:21:12 AM
Johan, I recommend opening the movies in QuickTime and using the Export... option under the File menu – do a bit of experimentation with the various options for exporting different format movies and seeing how small the files can be made while preserving quality. 2 GB strongly suggests almost no compression whatever.

Johnwh51, yep! Contrabassoon doubled by tuba and double basses at the unison, with the other tuba and the cellos at the higher octave.

I wouldn't write off Curro's Part One : remember, the internet stream from 4MBS is arguably inferior to the low-quality Radio 3 stream that was available – and having listened to your high-definition MP3s of excellent quality, they do not possess the limitations of the low-quality stream – the tuning of the high-pitched clarinets, cornets and trumpets is much less shrill, and tonally they actually sound like they are supposed to.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 20, 2011, 01:25:54 AM
Quote from: Johnwh51 on July 20, 2011, 01:05:56 AM
By the way, is that a contra bassoon in the bass line at 6' 30'' in the 3rd movement? It has tremendous presence and bite. The word bite is rarely associated with contras.

i was extremely struck by this passage too (& mentioned it in my article). It's true what you say about the contra's relative lack of bite; the way forward might just be the recently-developed contraforte, which sounds very much more powerful. If you're not familiar with it, head here: http://www.eppelsheim.com/kontraforte.php?lang=en. i've recently started work on a new piece for solo contra & ensemble, & would dearly love the soloist to get their hands on one of those things!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 01:29:33 AM
Voilà! In Brisbane...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 01:33:46 AM
@Philip I'm not an Apple user, and I don't have the Pro version of QuickTime... Upload speed is very bad at the moment. I'm going to see if I can convert the files to another, smaller-sized format like .avi or .mp4 first. And then we'll see.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 20, 2011, 01:46:30 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 01:29:33 AM
Voilà! In Brisbane...
Two double bassoons in tandem.jpg
In tandem? Shouldn't they be sitting one behind the other then?  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 20, 2011, 01:50:06 AM
5:4, the Melbourne Symphony invested in a contraforte a few years ago – I first heard it being outed in place of the "gran fagotto" in Mozart's Maurerische Trauermusik (K 479/477ª) which has three basset horns besides a normal Bb clarinet and the contra! It makes a lovely full tone without the offensive, reedy "fartiness" that you so often get with the contrabassoon in place of tone. Now there's a Mozart piece which is clearly in advance of its time.

Over to Malcolm MacDonald on that bit of the Vivace; behold the thing itself:

At this point the distant horn fanfare returns. Though not unaltered from its first appearance (it is stated over a pedal D from bassoons, cellos, horns and basses, and punctuated by chiming harps and glockenspiel), it is the nearest thing to a literal repetition we have yet encountered, and is plainly a structural landmark. In fact, it signals the mid-point of the movement; and here, at the geographical centre, we find an extraordinary thing. There are two statements of the horn fanfare, and between them lies an enormously impressive structure. For a mere dozen bars, we hear a hypnotic motion of massive chords on 6 horns and bassoons, circling away from and back to D, over a repeated even-crotchet pattern in tubas, double-bassoon, cellos and basses that curves downwards from A to D and back again. Words cannot give the flavour of the thing: it is like the majestic rotation of a planet. It has a looming, elemental quality – as if a veil has been lifted to allow us a brief glimpse of the mighty engine, that 'larger momentum' that powers the movement and the symphony as a whole. Brian marks the passage 'Slow', but so inexorable is its progression that the adjective seems meaningless. Does the world turn 'slowly' on its axis? Does it orbit 'slowly' round the Sun? Again and again in Brian's music we shall find similar moments of revelation, of forces at work beneath the music's surface.

I dare say Colin will be the first to agree that Malcolm has a brilliant turn of phrase when he's on form – and he so often is.

Johan, for some reason I thought the QuickTime player on the Windows platform did have some of the export features that are there on the Mac; apologies!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 20, 2011, 01:53:07 AM
Quote from: Philip Legge on July 20, 2011, 01:21:12 AM
Johan, I recommend opening the movies in QuickTime and using the Export... option under the File menu – do a bit of experimentation with the various options for exporting different format movies and seeing how small the files can be made while preserving quality. 2 GB strongly suggests almost no compression whatever.

Johnwh51, yep! Contrabassoon doubled by tuba and double basses at the unison, with the other tuba and the cellos at the higher octave.

I wouldn't write off Curro's Part One : remember, the internet stream from 4MBS is arguably inferior to the low-quality Radio 3 stream that was available – and having listened to your high-definition MP3s of excellent quality, they do not possess the limitations of the low-quality stream – the tuning of the high-pitched clarinets, cornets and trumpets is much less shrill, and tonally they actually sound like they are supposed to.

I wouldn't write the Curro off either. It's very good good but even had it been in high quality sound I still think that Brabbins would have the edge. Actually, I never write off any performance, good bad or indifferent, because at the end of the day it's just a load of people having a go and that's far more important than criticising their efforts. When I read some of the rubbish on YouTube it really makes me annoyed. You know the sort of thing: Heifetz is OK but at bar 16 blah, blah, blah. The LSO brass section at 3'25'' isn't as secure as blah, blah, blah.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 01:53:34 AM
Quote from: Philip Legge on July 20, 2011, 01:50:06 AM
5:4, the Melbourne Symphony invested in a contraforte a few years ago – I first heard it being outed in place of the "gran fagotto" in Mozart's Maurerische Trauermusik (K 479/477ª) which has three basset horns besides a normal Bb clarinet and the contra! It makes a lovely full tone without the offensive, reedy "fartiness" that you so often get with the contrabassoon in place of tone. Now there's a Mozart piece which is clearly in advance of its time.

I would have thought, with Mozart's scatological tendencies, he would object to an unfarty instrument...


QuoteJohan, for some reason I thought the QuickTime player on the Windows platform did have some of the export features that are there on the Mac; apologies!


Apple punishes Windows users subtly, Philip...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 20, 2011, 02:40:05 AM
Johan,

of course, there's a time and a place! :) I think Mozart might well have plumped for the contraforte on musical grounds alone, simply because it achieves a much better blend with the family of basset horns and clarinet, and can stand proudly against the oboes and horns which were also pitched against the gran fagotto.

Johnwh51,

I know the sort of thing – it's why I almost never read the comments on YouTube videos unless they are from an identifiable human being whose opinions can be respected. It's all too easy to be an anonymous troll on the Internet.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 02:41:08 AM
I suddenly remembered - I have an account at vimeo.com, where you upload videos... I have never used it. Now could be the time. I am now converting the first film (around 3 minutes) to the .avi format. On it you can see and hear the end of the 'jaunty march' episode and a great chunk of the bass solo...


Later: I have changed my mind. I'll convert the file to mp4 and upload to YouTube. And I'll do it at my ex's place, who has a secure connection.


P.S. I found a wonderful shareware programme, called RADVideo. I think I'll donate something, if all goes according to plan!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 20, 2011, 03:02:35 AM
Philip,
Do you have any dealings with the Western Australia Symphony Orchestra? One of my old school friends, Graham Pyatt, is a 1st fiddle player with them. Graham also played the solos on the 1974 CBS/Brian LP.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 03:20:23 AM
I have converted the .avi file to an .mp4. I just got a 'Brian' wave - I am going to use my mobile phone for uploading. See if that works. The first file has now been reduced to almost a third of its size.


Later: phone doesn't comply (Vodafone will have caps on file sizes). So I'll get my bike and go to my ex later. Expect the footage in two hours' time. I think it will be among the first in cyberspace. Because I found this...



http://www.youtube.com/v/ZXQH0mjN-0w


Of course the sound is distorted. But it still gives you an idea.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 20, 2011, 04:29:01 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 19, 2011, 06:32:23 PM

Guido 1637: In 1589 you said: "I just can't understand how any serious listener couldn't be riveted by this music. Such extraordinary beauty, and striding elemental grandeur - as Brian said, you just cant help but be happy that this music even exists." I myself feel neither riveted by this work nor particularly happy at its existence; consequently in your eyes, I am evidently not a serious listener. If it helps, I did feel happy this morning listening to the soprano/tenor duet from Bach's Cantata #112.


Ok whatever. You didn't engage with any of my points in the later post. And in the post you are referring to above: note the wording - I said "I can't understand", not "anyone who isn't riveted is an idiot". You're attacking strawmen here and as far as I can see, no one on this thread that you are making accusations at is anything like the screaming lunatics that you seem to think we are! It's not that anyone who doesn't like it is wrong, it's that snap judgements on this work, based on one hearing, need to be questioned. Other than that people are just venturing their opinion of how much they loved the concert, how much they love this music, and the incredible experience they have  had when listening to this work. I don't think anyone's made outrageous claims for him, and most claims have been rather moderate (apart from peoples own personal experiences which have tended to be ecstatic) - just hopeful that he will be revaluated and reconsidered. I've personally found the accounts rather uplifting and moving.

There's probably little point in typing any of this I know. You're not stupid and you know what you're doing!   :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 20, 2011, 05:02:44 AM
No outrageous claims for him (Brian)? Don't I keep banging on here that Brian is one of the greatest composers of all time,up there with Beethoven,Mozart,Berlioz,Handel and Johann Sebastian Bach?
Ludwig van Beethoven is a piffling upstart by comparison!
Best not take the bait!!! And,fair play to Sforzando,yes,he DOES know what he's doing.
Those videos are great. I must burn some dvd's.
(I hope that's the right term).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 20, 2011, 05:04:14 AM
More posts about .av files (?) and video uploads,quickly,PLEASE!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 20, 2011, 05:32:59 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 03:20:23 AM
I have converted the .avi file to an .mp4. I just got a 'Brian' wave - I am going to use my mobile phone for uploading. See if that works. The first file has now been reduced to almost a third of its size.


Later: phone doesn't comply (Vodafone will have caps on file sizes). So I'll get my bike and go to my ex later. Expect the footage in two hours' time. I think it will be among the first in cyberspace. Because I found this...



http://www.youtube.com/v/ZXQH0mjN-0w


Of course the sound is distorted. But it still gives you an idea.

Terrific sequence Johan - thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 07:00:01 AM
The show goes on... (I'll put my footage here shortly)


http://www.youtube.com/v/o-TFAKKJUco
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 07:21:29 AM
Footage of the Proms Gothic, not the rehearsal, but the final concert, courtesy of my sister and her trusty Canon... Another fragment tomorrow. As I can't seem to embed this one, I'll do it like this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ugAH0R7S_w
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 20, 2011, 07:36:49 AM
I like what Brabbins said in part 2/8 about his anticipatory comment. Although we didn't hear this, he obviously warned the chorus about their entry dragging behind the beat (which is usually the case) and lo and behold, they rushed ahead instead. Classic. This entire rehearsal day would be more interesting to see on DVD rather than the actual concert but there again, I have always enjoyed rehearsals more than the finished product.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: zamyrabyrd on July 20, 2011, 08:07:21 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2011, 09:59:21 PM
I absolutely recognise your dislike of Messiaen's St Francis, btw. I sat through the work when it was performed in Amsterdam last year - the first and final half hours or so alone were enjoyable, but everything in between was sleep-inducingly thin and completely undramatic. Thus runs my verdict.

Oh gosh, I just saw a film of (what may be) the same performance. Maybe it is easier to take the five hours outside a theatre. I loved the music though. Perhaps a shortened version might be considered for the opera house. But as Mozart asked Franz Joseph in "Amadeus", the question would be "what notes shall I cut?"

ZB
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on July 20, 2011, 08:49:44 AM
Thankyou cilgwyn for your penultimate post. There is a way forward after all.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 20, 2011, 11:35:57 AM
Couple of reviews

http://www.musicomh.com/classical/proms/2011-4_0711.htm

which is buttressed with some nice passages:

QuoteIt is an incredible work that I suspect requires many hearings to make any real sense of from a strict musical perspective. Fortunately, however, just one is all that is needed to become fully aware of its magnitude, impact and sheer brilliance....

...Brian's 'Gothic' Symphony is undoubtedly crazy, and just as certainly a work of total genius. Though the evening revealed exactly how glorious it is, I fear that performances will remain few and far between. For that reason, you are strongly advised to catch a repeat broadcast of this one while you can, and I certainly hope that we will be treated to some of Brian's other thirty plus symphonies over the next few seasons.

and equally positive
http://petergroves.blogspot.com/2011/07/gothic-symphony.html

though this one is not immune to misconception - e.g. this bit:

QuoteIt had been performed a couple of times by the time I learnt of its existence - so the composer did get to hear it before he died at the ripe old age of 96. There have been a couple of performances of the first, orchestral, part since, which overcame the problem of finding 700 or so singers to make up the three choruses needed, and I think you could also get away without the four off-stage brass bands, so all you need is an orchestra of just short of 200 people.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 12:09:41 PM
Thanks for your trawl, Luke.


Yes, both reviews make a few mistakes (Brian 33 when he started the 'Gothic'?- 43!) But the main thing is - they show that people with no fully-formed taste (= no preconceptions) can appreciate what is on offer on a very basic level. My friend Michiel Schuijer (who was with me, he wrote an important book on pitch-class set theory), said to me already two decades ago that Brian really should be experienced live. It is a bit like what Robert Schumann realised about Wagner - when he read the score of Tannhäuser, he didn't like it as music; when he heard the work at the opera house, he noticed to his surprise that it 'worked'. I think, because of the shortage of performances, we forget about the sheer physical impact Brian's music can have. It is part and parcel of what his work is.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 20, 2011, 12:17:56 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 12:09:41 PM
It is a bit like what Robert Schumann realised about Wagner - when he read the score of Tannhäuser, he didn't like it as music; when he heard the work at the opera house, he noticed to his surprise that it 'worked'. I think, because of the shortage of performances, we forget about the sheer physical impact Brian's music can have. It is part and parcel of what his work is.
This is the sentiment i was trying to tap into in my article, when i alluded to Liverpool Cathedral. i think in all sorts of ways that building is quite ridiculous on paper, but there's something astonishingly successful about the real thing when you're physically beside/within it. It, too, 'works', despite all apparent evidence to the contrary. But then, that's the wonder & mystery of 'gothic'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 20, 2011, 12:53:42 PM
A number of contributors to this thread have expressed their dismay and deep regret that the BBC did not televise the performance. That was indeed my own reaction.

I spoke today to someone who occupied a senior position within BBC Music for many years. He pointed out the logistical difficulties involved.

For a 'normal size' orchestra with or without chorus there is a considerable degree of experience possessed by the BBC producers, sound engineers, camera men etc etc. It is therefore not too difficult-though still not by any means easy-to use the rehearsal time for a Proms concert in the Royal Albert Hall for all these people to get it right for a live broadcast.

For the Gothic however, with its massive forces, spatial effects, extraordinary seating arrangements and so on and on(!) the sound and camera folk would have required a lot more than one dress rehearsal in the RAH. And that, of course, they could not get! If they had tried to get everything required set up during the single rehearsal in situ a LOT could have gone wrong.

Now I know no more than I was told today by someone who has a lot of experience of managing an orchestra and arranging recordings for the BBC. I did think that others might find this interesting however.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on July 20, 2011, 01:07:07 PM
@Dundonnell: thanks, that does help me understand the BBC position as a rational choice rather than a grossly negligent one.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 01:45:29 PM
@5against4 How is traffic on your site doing? Is it still up since 'The Gothic'? I liked your piece, it had an original perspective, and those Ruskin quotations were quite apposite. I wonder whether Brian ever read Ruskin... But sometimes an artist doesn't need to know something or someone consciously - the influence can come from the cultural climate itself, into which an idea or a figure has been assimilated.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 20, 2011, 02:10:37 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 01:45:29 PM
@5against4 How is traffic on your site doing? Is it still up since 'The Gothic'? I liked your piece, it had an original perspective, and those Ruskin quotations were quite apposite. I wonder whether Brian ever read Ruskin... But sometimes an artist doesn't need to know something or someone consciously - the influence can come from the cultural climate itself, into which an idea or a figure has been assimilated.
For the last couple of days the traffic has been about four times higher than usual. It's had a second boost today, as Alex Ross referred to my article in his summary of the 'Gothic' debate. Lots of downloads, of course, but nowhere near as many downloads as visits, so I'm glad people are reading the article, not just visiting for downloads!

Who knows about whether Brian knew Ruskin's writings? But like you say, ideas can be assimilated in all sorts of ways, not always from primary sources. That's my suggestion in the reference to utopian expressionist architecture, that the mindset could be there in part without a direct connection to the practitioner. Only a theory of course, but why not?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 20, 2011, 02:37:07 PM
A very dissatisfied, but very funny, comment on my blog (it begins by quoting a few of my words):

"If the Gothic were a book ..."

I found the Prom 4 experience, with all its splendours and miseries, not unlike reading, from cover to cover, a particularly large volume of wallpaper samples.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 03:06:04 PM
@Brian I see that Robert Matthew-Walker has reacted to your 'Gothic' post. I met him in 1995 at a Brian concert, where he sold and signed his very entertaining little book Havergal Brian: Reminiscences and Observations. I am glad he discovered your piece. It clearly pleased him!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 20, 2011, 03:56:24 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 20, 2011, 02:37:07 PM
A very dissatisfied, but very funny, comment on my blog (it begins by quoting a few of my words):

"If the Gothic were a book ..."

I found the Prom 4 experience, with all its splendours and miseries, not unlike reading, from cover to cover, a particularly large volume of wallpaper samples.


:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 20, 2011, 03:57:13 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 03:06:04 PM
@Brian I see that Robert Matthew-Walker has reacted to your 'Gothic' post. I met him in 1995 at a Brian concert, where he sold and signed his very entertaining little book Havergal Brian: Reminiscences and Observations. I am glad he discovered your piece. It clearly pleased him!

Indeed: "So much mroe insightful than the crap which I am told has appeared in the UK national press, writtng by people who are simply not up to the standrd of the music they purport ot write about."

Well, harrumph!  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 03:58:20 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 20, 2011, 03:57:13 PM
Indeed: "So much mroe insightful than the crap which I am told has appeared in the UK national press, writtng by people who are simply not up to the standrd of the music they purport ot write about."

Well, harrumph!  :)


He forgot his glasses.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 20, 2011, 04:06:29 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 03:58:20 PM

He forgot his glasses.

Or his spell-checker.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 04:10:58 PM
The man is 70 and he has written many books. Perhaps emotion overtook him.  :o  Still, it's clear what he means.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 20, 2011, 04:11:47 PM
Dundonnell,

since I'm the new kid on the block here (along with 5:4), might I add that your familiarity with Malcolm was obviously one based in lifelong friendship and in the circumstances no offence should be held for a casual reference, rather than always employing the formal "Mr. MacDonald". I suppose I'm rather presumptuous to claim him as a friend also, based on a personal acquaintance of quite ludicrously shorter duration established while he was over here in Australia for the Brisbane Gothic: I'd obviously read many things he's written, and he was also aware of my long-winded, ranting contributions to the pages of the Havergal Brian Society which have been regularly fulminating there for the last few years, and it was a treasure to have him and several other Brian luminaries such as Paul Rapoport in attendance. (He was also incredibly kind to sign my copy of "The Symphonies of Havergal Brian", volume 1.)

I suppose I should ask what is the etiquette of using real names here in this forum? Some people such as myself and J.Z.H. are using real names; others are using minimal-concealment pseudonyms (e.g. Johnwh51 who would seem to be John Wh... in real life) or are acknowledging the use of their real names despite a non-obvious connection between name and pseudonym. (I suppose there's a FAQ to point out to me?)

As for your later post about the BBC not filming because the compromised of the production schedule would not meet their high standards for production values; that is very understandable and highly regrettable. But I do hope however they had some fixed cameras in place just to record what was happening (neutral direction).

John,

unfortunately I've had about nil-all to do with WASO: every time I've been over in the west to a concert, it's been with guest orchestras (Australian Youth Orchestra, Prague Chamber Orchestra) and WASO sent along some low brass to the latter outfit for an outstanding Dvořák Stabat mater in the Perth Concert Hall; no extra fiddles were required!

Johan,

I'm in the middle of downloading your sister's first movie taken during the performance – what I've seen is stunning. Thanks to you both from the bottom of my heart!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 04:17:05 PM
Quote from: Philip Legge on July 20, 2011, 04:11:47 PM
Johan,

I'm in the middle of downloading your sister's first movie taken during the performance – what I've seen is stunning. Thanks to you both from the bottom of my heart!


Glad you liked it. The conversions, from .mov to .avi. to .mp4, have kept me busy today. The second clip is longer, and comprises everything from the percussion cataclysm to the end. And there is a long section with just the applause... I considered partly cutting that (though I had to see how to do that with Windows Movie Maker), but decided against it. Tomorrow I'll upload the thing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: bhodges on July 20, 2011, 04:19:52 PM
Quote from: Philip Legge on July 20, 2011, 04:11:47 PM
I suppose I should ask what is the etiquette of using real names here in this forum? Some people such as myself and J.Z.H. are using real names; others are using minimal-concealment pseudonyms (e.g. Johnwh51 who would seem to be John Wh... in real life) or are acknowledging the use of their real names despite a non-obvious connection between name and pseudonym. (I suppose there's a FAQ to point out to me?)


Hello, Philip, and welcome again to GMG. Although I've been pretty much just lurking on this fascinating discussion, as one of the moderators I wanted to address your query above, and the answer is: it's totally up to you. Recently Rob Lang, the forum's owner, suggested that users have a different "login name" and "display name," to help combat the spambots we get occasionally, but this is only a suggestion and not mandatory.

I am fairly transparent - my real name is easily discernable from my blog and other writings - so I suppose I'm in the "semi-concealment" category. But it's all totally up to you - whatever you feel most comfortable with.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 20, 2011, 04:28:27 PM
@ Johan. And in doing so you will earn and merit the undying gratitude of many of us here ;D


@Philip. My post about how to refer to Malcolm MacDonald was written with my tongue wedged very firmly in cheek :)  He is indeed a very old friend and I need make no apology for that. If my solitary claim to musical 'fame' is to have introduced him to the music of Havergal Brian(a fact which I had completely forgotten until he reminded me of it a few months ago) then so be it ;D   (I have just opened my copy of Vol.I of his book on the Symphonies. There is a kind message from Malcolm on the flyleaf dated 21 April 1974. Ouch! Tempus fugit!!  As I think you already know my real name is Colin (Mackie).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: bhodges on July 20, 2011, 04:32:04 PM
Pardon another side comment, but...Colin, it's nice to see you back! If the Gothic concert did nothing else... ;D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 20, 2011, 04:34:53 PM
Quote from: Brewski on July 20, 2011, 04:32:04 PM
Pardon another side comment, but...Colin, it's nice to see you back! If the Gothic concert did nothing else... ;D

--Bruce

Thanks, Bruce!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 20, 2011, 04:56:57 PM
Bruce and Colin,

thanks both of you for your comments! To Colin, I had the feeling that was the case, but it would have been asinine for me as a newcomer to enter into the joke, if it actually wasn't! It was wonderful to meet Malcolm, and inbetween the rehearsals I managed to organise a dinner for the interlopers from Melbourne and some of the University of Queensland choristers singing in the performance to which he and John Grimshaw (HBS chairman) were the honoured guests: a great time was had by all at an Indian restaurant close by to his hotel. Three weeks later, the restaurant, as well as the lower levels of the concert hall where we performed the Gothic, were inundated by the Queensland floods. "Curse of the Gothic" indeed.

The danger of the author signing the flyleaf of his own books too frequently is that eventually the unsigned copy would prove to be a rarity (as was the case with Ted Heath): for that reason my copies of volumes 2 and 3 will remain unsigned until I have another opportunity to push them beneath his gaze, at say, performances of Symphonies 16 or 30 respectively! ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 20, 2011, 06:33:43 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 04:10:58 PM
The man is 70 and he has written many books. Perhaps emotion overtook him.  :o  Still, it's clear what he means.

I know neither the man nor his books. Yes, it is clear what he means, and it is precisely what I have been arguing in my previous long post: that it is not enough for the more extreme Brianists to extol the virtues of his work, but that they must also denigrate those who have the temerity to question its merits ("people who are simply not up to the standard of the music they purport to write about"). After I made this point, I was treated here with varying degrees of outrage and contempt; and of the respondents, only Karl and Brian seemed sufficiently dispassionate to admit that my argument had some validity.

You yourself have referred to your advocacy as a battle. But consider your metaphor. The aim of a battle is to subdue an enemy. Subduing your enemy (or like Mr. Matthew-Walker, asserting his inferiority) is hardly an effective means of winning him over to your side. If you genuinely believe Brian is a great composer, that should be something you could try persuading your opponent to see your way (as you quite rightly say, "by giving aesthetic reasons for thinking so"). Yet other than Luke's characteristically insightful comments, I'm not seeing much of that on this thread, only a lot of preaching to the choir, and some degree of resentment towards the benighted philistines.

Perhaps this performance will turn a corner, perhaps it won't. Various performers have given some of Brian's works over the years, yet nothing has ever really taken hold. I readily accept that to those who love Brian's work, this Gothic was a revelatory experience. I assure you that could I have gone to London last week, I would have stood for the two hours myself. As it is, I have 5:4's FLACs, I just burned my CDs, and we shall we what we shall see.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 20, 2011, 07:17:17 PM
poco sfz,

if you are to continue the argument that there are extreme Brianists doing nothing but extolling the Gothic and denigrating the critics, then I think you had better provide some more evidence for the latter part than a single blog comment seemingly written in haste (as is implied by multiple typos). In fact there has been in the past quite a degree of negative press from critics for Brian advocates to argue against, and one prominent strain of counter-reaction to this has been to write them off as being single-issue, out-of-touch, socially maladroit nutters of various flavours.

I've already quoted my favourite such comment, which was Tweeted before even half an hour of the Proms Gothic had elapsed, but for the record, here it is again: "Finally those moaning boring geeks that would write to me at Radio 3 every week get their wet dream Prom." (http://twitter.com/#!/tommyrpearson/status/92661892077719552) Andrew Clements politely linked to the Havergal Brian Society web page when referring to Brian's "vociferous admirers", which is a little cute: why would you not expect the members of a composer society to be both admirers, and given to voicing their opinions?

By the way, I'm not inclined to go collecting evidence to continue defending this argument, because it doesn't actually interest me very much at all. The critics are entitled to criticise, and those of us who care about the work under criticism are entitled to point out if the criticism lacks objectivity and balance, such as the point that the negative assessment of a very large, long, and complicated work on a single hearing is possibly unfair (and one particular critic then proceeded to assume that all 32 works with a similar title of "symphony" could be tarred by the same broad brush; I've seen numerous blog comments paraphrasing the idea all the symphonies must be drivel, since the particular writer happened to hold the opinion that the Gothic was drivel).

I get the fact that many of the critics weren't impressed, or that some people were already largely inclined to the view of the work as a White Elephant and the Proms performance merely confirmed that: chacun à son goût. I'm allowed not to be interested in other people's disappointed reaction, and to concentrate on the positive ones.

I hope listening to 5:4's FLACs is a rewarding experience for you – some of us have already had revelatory experiences from this music under far less ideal conditions (listening to the Lenard and Boult recordings). Having sung in the Gothic once, it's safe to say that any recording fails to live up to the experience of hearing it live in concert, so best of luck.

Regards, Philip

PS As for this thread "preaching to the choir", if you look at my picture it's the reverse: I'm in the choir, and I set a lot of store by singing in time, in tune, and with good tone.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 10:51:11 PM
Dear Sforzando.

I know exactly what I mean when I say 'battle'. Words are my trade and no-one has to teach me anything about metaphor. Of course it's a battle! It's the Blakean 'mental fight'. The 'enemy' you have to subdue is not the person, it is his or her laziness, prejudice, or understandable incomprehension. Art isn't natural, it is a cultural artifact that, when it is really new, disturbs the order of things (tradition, canon, accepted criteria), and thus needs explaining. Such a work, by its nature, sometimes does not, at once, speak for itself. And that is when battle commences.

I know I don't have to explain this to you, but as you seem to have forgotten these truisms, I thought of reminding you. If you think they don't apply to Brian's case, then that's your decision. But I find it a shaky one. Nor have you refuted any of the arguments I offered, because you know they are irrefutable and it is, I think, simply the fact you don't like Brian's music. So be it. But don't attack the, admittedly, heated admirers. Attack the music for aesthetic reasons!

Or if you don't think it worth your time, why bother complaining here? I don't invade a thread devoted to a composer I dislike - I'd let the lovers be and at the most would say that I can't see what all the fuss is about but that they are welcome to him.

Discussion closed (for me).

P.S. Adorno did a brilliant hatchet job on Stravinsky in his 'New Philosophy of Music'. It taught me something about him the lovers can't. If you did the same with Brian, I would be very happy.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on July 20, 2011, 11:12:48 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 20, 2011, 06:33:43 PM
If you genuinely believe Brian is a great composer........

Well, as one of the Brian enthusiasts who had the effrontery to criticise a music journalist who was able to dismiss The Gothic after "listening to a bit of it" (yes, I know, how utterly unreasonable of me!), I feel I must add this:

It is not the case that all those who feel Brian is neglected or sidelined also feel that he is a "great composer" or an artist of Beethovenian stature. My own opinion of him, stated a few pages back, is that he is a "significant talent" - that's quite different. If I had to place him in a league table with other British composers, I would rank him with personalities such as Holst or Bax. Important figures, but no Mozarts.

Like Holst and Bax, Brian was not a world-bestriding genius but an artist who, in his best works, was occasionally touched by genius. For me, these "best works" - from Brian's current recorded oeuvre - are symphonies 6, 8, 10 and 16. Perhaps if these were given an occasional outing at the Proms (the latter two works would each take up barely 20 minutes of the Prommers' time), we would have a far better perspective on this composer - rather than repeatedly reinforcing his image as an amateurish nutjob who wrote ludicrously over-ambitious White Elephants. (For all that The Gothic is also touched by genius, its extravagances have been its - and Brian's - undoing.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 20, 2011, 11:20:25 PM
Quote from: Philip Legge on July 20, 2011, 04:11:47 PM
I suppose I should ask what is the etiquette of using real names here in this forum? Some people such as myself and J.Z.H. are using real names; others are using minimal-concealment pseudonyms (e.g. Johnwh51 who would seem to be John Wh... in real life) or are acknowledging the use of their real names despite a non-obvious connection between name and pseudonym. (I suppose there's a FAQ to point out to me?)

As for your later post about the BBC not filming because the compromised of the production schedule would not meet their high standards for production values; that is very understandable and highly regrettable. But I do hope however they had some fixed cameras in place just to record what was happening (neutral direction).


Hi Philip,
Johnwh51 is me, John Whitmore. I played violin with the LSSO hence my interest (sort of) in Brian. I don't do etiquette so John is fine. Mr Whitmore is better. Sir John or Lord John would be nice but untruthful. I agree with your point about the BBC. It can't have been too difficult to run 2 or 3 static cameras for 2 hours and then do a mix, albeit limited, following the event. A sort of up market home movie. Let's see if anything turns up.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 20, 2011, 11:25:19 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 10:51:11 PM
P.S. Adorno did a brilliant hatchet job on Stravinsky in his 'New Philosophy of Music'. It taught me something about him the lovers can't. If you did the same with Brian, I would be very happy.

Which reminds me: I've finally translated Rene Leibowitz' essay "Sibelius, the Worst Composer in the World" into English, if there would be any interest in seeing that...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 20, 2011, 11:30:34 PM
John,

I think it would be possible to get used to Sir John in the right circumstances! My thoughts exactly; the camera positions already exist, so just leave them running for the two and a half hours for the sake of the BBC archive.

Brian,

I'm sort of dreading the Leibowitz essay. Would it be like Dr David Wright's essay (http://www.wrightmusic.net/pages/composers.html) on Benjamin Britten? (I discovered that website via another forum poster, and have been repressing shudders ever since.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 20, 2011, 11:32:47 PM
@Brian Yes.

My friend Michiel got another seat because of that bl**dy camera they didn't use.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 20, 2011, 11:33:18 PM
Not sure if this has been posted here - but lots of interesting discussion about the Gothic + a useful summary at the end of the different reviews of the concert.

http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/18/havergal-brian-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 20, 2011, 11:41:25 PM
I've just been sharing some Facebook banter with an old friend of mine, Stephen Whittaker, who timped on the Unicorn LSSO 10/21 LP. I thought you would enjoy the thread.

John: Just listening again to the 3rd movement of Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony from the Proms performance on Sunday. Tremendous playing and wonderful music. Martyn Brabbins in superb form. Best version in my collection by far. Beats Lenard, Boult and the live Brisbane recording by quite a margin. Can't get it out of my head!!!!!
Steve: What about the LSO performance with Ole Schmidt? I believe that has a few things to recommend it, not least the fabulous xylophone playing of.... Oh no, there I go again.....
John: Were you doing xylo on the Schmidt? I'm impressed. Your timps on 10 and 21 are pretty good too!
Steve: One young chap in the front row of the chorus was evidently particularly impressed with the xylo playing, as he fainted dead away during the performance and came crashing down into the perc section. I well remember you behaving with prodigious intelligence, dignity and gravitas during our youth orchestra years. Oh no, wait a minute........
John: Must have been someone else. Are you still hitting things with sticks at the back of orchestras?
Steve: Absolutely. Beats going to all the bother of learning a musical instrument.

Is there a recording of the Schmidt to be found anywhere? (Question aimed mostly towards the direction of Delft in the Dutch alps)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 20, 2011, 11:52:15 PM
Quote from: Philip Legge on July 20, 2011, 11:30:34 PM
John,

I think it would be possible to get used to Sir John in the right circumstances! My thoughts exactly; the camera positions already exist, so just leave them running for the two and a half hours for the sake of the BBC archive.


Moving away from HB for a moment, a friend of mine is into motor sport (you know, glorified traffic jams) and many years ago the British Sports Car champion was a bloke called Sir John Whitmore so my friend always called me Sir John. One evening at a huge birthday party (real up market effort) at the Granada Studios in Manchester I walked in with my wife and spotted this motor sport fanatic chatting to a group of people so we strolled up to them in posh frocks and bow ties, champers in hands. My pal James said "hello Sir John" and turned to an American couple and announced "Can I introduce you to Sir John and Lady Angela". This was bad enough but the best bit is still to come. The American lady grabbed my hand and did a courtsey (spelling?) and her husband bowed. How I kept a straight face and didn't wet my pants I never know. Anyway that's the end of the short intermission so now back to good old Havergal......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 20, 2011, 11:56:43 PM
Quote from: Philip Legge on July 20, 2011, 11:30:34 PM
Brian,

I'm sort of dreading the Leibowitz essay. Would it be like Dr David Wright's essay (http://www.wrightmusic.net/pages/composers.html) on Benjamin Britten? (I discovered that website via another forum poster, and have been repressing shudders ever since.)

No, it's not like Dr David Wright, in that it restrains itself to mere musical critique. The most personal it gets is "someone at school had to be a dunce"!

I'm thinking of posting the article on my blog as its own page. When I do this I'll link to it in the GMG thread about Sibelius...

And perhaps now we really will be back to discussing Havergal Brian. Sorry about that, Sir John  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 21, 2011, 12:09:59 AM

And perhaps now we really will be back to discussing Havergal Brian. Sorry about that, Sir John;
[/quote]


I agree and don't forget to bow when you type my name.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 21, 2011, 01:00:56 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 20, 2011, 11:25:19 PM
Which reminds me: I've finally translated Rene Leibowitz' essay "Sibelius, the Worst Composer in the World" into English, if there would be any interest in seeing that...

Yes please!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 21, 2011, 01:05:11 AM
Johnwh51 has now transformed into John Whitmore. All very Doctor Who. The profile picture is one of my heroes - Eric Pinkett.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 21, 2011, 01:12:40 AM
Here's an interesting Gothic forum on the BBC proms page. 73 comments so far:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2011/july-17/5?postId=109708012
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 21, 2011, 01:51:14 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on July 20, 2011, 11:52:15 PM
Moving away from HB for a moment, a friend of mine is into motor sport (you know, glorified traffic jams) and many years ago the British Sports Car champion was a bloke called Sir John Whitmore so my friend always called me Sir John. One evening at a huge birthday party (real up market effort) at the Granada Sudios in Manchester I walked in with my wife and spotted this motor sport fanatic chatting to a group of people so we strolled up to them in posh frocks and bow ties, champers in hands. My pal James said "hello Sir John" and turned to an American couple and announced "Can I introduce you to Sir John and Lady Angela". This was bad enough but the best bit is still to come. The American lady grabbed my hand and did a courtsey (spelling?) and her husband bowed. How I kept a straight face and didn't wet my pants I never know. Anyway that's the end of the short intermission so now back to good old Havergal......

OT

My brother, whilst staying in a hotel in Bruxelles received a letter from a friend, jokingly addressed to 'Lord Peter Davis'. At dinner that night, the Head waiter came up to him (my brother said that he had a horrible realisation of what was about to happen), gave a ceremonial bow and enquired 'is everything to your liking Your Lordship?'
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 21, 2011, 02:23:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 21, 2011, 01:51:14 AM
OT

My brother, whilst staying in a hotel in Bruxelles received a letter from a friend, jokingly addressed to 'Lord Peter Davis'. At dinner that night, the Head waiter came up to him (my brother said that he had a horrible realisation of what was about to happen), gave a ceremonial bow and enquired 'is everything to your liking Your Lordship?'

Next time he should aim for "Your Royal Highness".

A good friends of my with the surname of Mao was not long ago made Chairman of the Board of a corporation. Now he can be Chairman Mao.

I have the Marco Polo recording of the Gothic ready for after dinner music, to be listened to about two hours from now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 21, 2011, 02:26:59 AM
Quote from: springrite on July 21, 2011, 02:23:55 AM
Next time he should aim for "Your Royal Highness".

A good friends of my with the surname of Mao was not long ago made Chairman of the Board of a corporation. Now he can be Chairman Mao.

I have the Marco Polo recording of the Gothic ready for after dinner music, to be listened to about two hours from now.

Kimi is growing up!  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 21, 2011, 02:40:12 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 21, 2011, 02:26:59 AM
Kimi is growing up!  :)

Yes, but she doesn't like Brian. She loves Boulez for some reason.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 21, 2011, 05:56:22 AM
I've just come across an interview from 1974 which you might all enjoy so I've added a few photos and put it on Youtube.

http://youtu.be/8psW_Lb7H-o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 21, 2011, 06:11:22 AM
As I said earlier, I had lunch yesterday with another friend from my schooldays-a recently retired BBC Music senior executive and former managing director of a BBC orchestra.
He listened to the radio broadcast of the Gothic and hated the music. He believes it to be disjointed and clumsy, almost completely unsingable and, essentially, a tedious bore.

Of course when I heard those views expressed I terminated the meal at once, flung my unfinished plate of food in his face, upended the table and stormed out of the restaurant in incandescent rage.

No....actually I did none of these things ;D I listened to the views of someone whose musical experience and taste I respect with close attention, some disappointment and a measure of sadness. My principal emotion was regret that he has not 'got' the piece or the composer's music in general.

I remember dipping into this forum once during my two years sabbatical and reading a comment on a thread I had started on some Norwegian composers in which it was alleged that my purpose in posting about certain composers was to discourage others from listening to music I dislike and to disparage their tastes. That made me angry and sad.

I wrote here in the past(more than once!) and I reiterate: it is MY loss if I dislike Rachmaninov, Delius or Scriabin. Others-Johan to name but one-loves the music of Delius. That is wonderful! I wish I was attuned to the Delian soundworld. One day it may click for me; I do have virtually everything Delius wrote on my shelves.

I regret that there are folk(lots of them, no doubt!) who don't get Havergal Brian and think his music is seriously flawed in construction and/or in purpose. I shall continue to express my own love of the music without making extravagant claims for it and without comparing Brian to other composers because I find great pleasure in attempting to share an enthusiasm with others. Nothing in music has given me greater delight than in taking along to the RAH a young relative who had not heard a single note of Brian's music and finding him so visibly moved at the end of the performance. :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on July 21, 2011, 06:31:52 AM
Following the magnificent performance of The Gothic, Martyn Brabbins has agreed to become the new President of the Havergal Brian Society, a post left open since the death of Sir Charles Mackerras. This can only be good news as far as future performances and recordings are concerned:

"I accept, with great pleasure and no little pride, your invitation to be HBS President!  As you know, I am a passionate advocate of British music, and having experienced the Gothic last week, am convinced that this is some of the most astounding music to have been penned by an Englishman.  Originality can sometimes be mistaken by those insufficiently well-listened - some critics amongst them - as somewhat ill-conceived.  I think Brian certainly knew what he was trying to do, and we have to work a little harder than usual to make all the necessary strands of his creative voice come into focus. I look forward to extending my knowledge of the output of this extraordinary character and, of playing a role in the Society."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 21, 2011, 06:38:36 AM
Excellent news, Albion!!

Brabbins is a first-rate conductor and a powerful advocate.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 07:03:57 AM
Yes, good news. I am very glad Martyn Brabbins accepted. I had lunch with the HBS Committee last Monday where this was discussed. The most important thing is that Brian now has a conductor who is convinced of his quality and has an affinity with his idiom.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 21, 2011, 07:14:34 AM
After his stunning recording for Dutton & the most exciting and,arguably,convincing performance of the Gothic yet,he certainly deserves the appointment. I think he will be an inspiring figure head.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 21, 2011, 07:18:08 AM
And not JUST for HBS members!

NB: Just thought I'd 'try out' the 'currently listening to' thingummy & decided to add the 'dolby cassette bit' so I won't keep boring people to death with it.
If I put on James Brown or Millie Jackson I suppose I'll have to add them as well!!!!!
Or what about? Havergal Brian & Gladys Knight & the Pips?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 21, 2011, 07:22:29 AM
This is wonderful news. Brian has lacked an advocate for years. Maybe now we will have some truly first class performances and recordings in the coming years!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 21, 2011, 07:28:16 AM
He could be like Alex Salmond for the SNP!
We could have a Havergal Brian landslide in every constituency!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 21, 2011, 07:50:04 AM
I just can't stand Alex Salmond's music. It lacks structure and goes on incessantly.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 21, 2011, 07:54:20 AM
Nearly posted a terrible howler in the Martinu thread. I typed out 'The Sexcursions of Mr Broucek' instead of......well.you know. I just caught it in time.
He would have had more fun though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 21, 2011, 08:12:23 AM
Have to say,Dundonnell's post above is very funny. I am of course referring to the bit about the meal. His friend is very lucky that Brian's admirers are all such nice,polite, open minded,tolerant people,
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 09:51:23 AM
Here is the end of The Gothic plus a big chunck of the ovation (which you can stop watching!)...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oMxbxI3l18
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 21, 2011, 10:02:06 AM
Johan, the ovation proves there is no market for Brian. Good video!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 21, 2011, 10:10:49 AM
Applause nearly as long as the symphony. I can feel the tears prickling at my eyes. Someone's got a steady hand!
What would they have done if you'd put a camcorder up on a tripod?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 21, 2011, 10:14:02 AM
Someone else had a camera phone (or something like that) in front,I notice.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 10:19:35 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 21, 2011, 10:10:49 AM
Applause nearly as long as the symphony. I can feel the tears prickling at my eyes. Someone's got a steady hand!
What would they have done if you'd put a camcorder up on a tripod?

Bless my sister's steady hand! Btw - that I uploaded these two vids is illegal. So we'll have to wait and see how long they'll remain where they are...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 21, 2011, 10:27:50 AM
Okay,so I'll leave you to guess what I am currently doing.
She's like a human steadicam.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 21, 2011, 10:40:29 AM
My mum will enjoy that!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 21, 2011, 10:51:54 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 09:51:23 AM
Here is the end of The Gothic...
Why is everyone standing in that middle section in front of you?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 21, 2011, 11:21:12 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 21, 2011, 10:51:54 AM
Why is everyone standing in that middle section in front of you?

Those are the Prommers who queue up on the day for standing tickets in the large open space between the stage and the stalls.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 21, 2011, 11:23:54 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 10:19:35 AM
Bless my sister's steady hand! Btw - that I uploaded these two vids is illegal. So we'll have to wait and see how long they'll remain where they are...

If you go to jail, Johan, we shall smuggle in appropriate cds, books and writing materials for you. Any early requests?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 21, 2011, 11:35:05 AM
A file?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 21, 2011, 11:36:37 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 21, 2011, 11:23:54 AM
If you go to jail, Johan, we shall smuggle in appropriate cds, books and writing materials for you. Any early requests?

We should also learn part of the choral part of the Gothic and sing it outside of the prison so he can hear it. That must be inspirational!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 11:37:40 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 21, 2011, 11:35:05 AM
A file?


A file is what got me in there in the first place!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 21, 2011, 11:38:06 AM
Good one,Johan!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 21, 2011, 11:41:31 AM
Singing outside the prison? Shades of Ethel Smyth there. Conducting the Gothic through the prison bars with a toothbrush and you're fellow Brianites outside.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 21, 2011, 11:49:24 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 11:37:40 AM

A file is what got me in there in the first place!

Don't worry Johan, if the Dutch prisons are like the Dutch police in the Harry Enfield sketch it should be a fairly liberal regime - they're bound to let you keep listening to Havergal Brian and keep up contact with the forum through your cell's built-in wireless laptop system.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 21, 2011, 11:51:39 AM
You'll probably have them all listening to Brian within a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 21, 2011, 12:04:01 PM
And the birth of the Dutch Chapter of the Havergal Brian Society!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 12:04:42 PM
I await my fate with much more equanimity, seeing all this support flooding in...  :D


Quote from: springrite on July 21, 2011, 12:04:01 PM
And the birth of the Dutch Chapter of the Havergal Brian Society!


Who knows?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 21, 2011, 12:18:31 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 21, 2011, 06:11:22 AM
As I said earlier, I had lunch yesterday with another friend from my schooldays-a recently retired BBC Music senior executive and former managing director of a BBC orchestra.
He listened to the radio broadcast of the Gothic and hated the music. He believes it to be disjointed and clumsy, almost completely unsingable and, essentially, a tedious bore.

Of course when I heard those views expressed I terminated the meal at once, flung my unfinished plate of food in his face, upended the table and stormed out of the restaurant in incandescent rage.

No....actually I did none of these things ;D I listened to the views of someone whose musical experience and taste I respect with close attention, some disappointment and a measure of sadness. My principal emotion was regret that he has not 'got' the piece or the composer's music in general.

I remember dipping into this forum once during my two years sabbatical and reading a comment on a thread I had started on some Norwegian composers in which it was alleged that my purpose in posting about certain composers was to discourage others from listening to music I dislike and to disparage their tastes. That made me angry and sad.

I wrote here in the past(more than once!) and I reiterate: it is MY loss if I dislike Rachmaninov, Delius or Scriabin. Others-Johan to name but one-loves the music of Delius. That is wonderful! I wish I was attuned to the Delian soundworld. One day it may click for me; I do have virtually everything Delius wrote on my shelves.

I regret that there are folk(lots of them, no doubt!) who don't get Havergal Brian and think his music is seriously flawed in construction and/or in purpose. I shall continue to express my own love of the music without making extravagant claims for it and without comparing Brian to other composers because I find great pleasure in attempting to share an enthusiasm with others. Nothing in music has given me greater delight than in taking along to the RAH a young relative who had not heard a single note of Brian's music and finding him so visibly moved at the end of the performance. :) :)

Very interesting post Colin - I have been listening to the Gothic Symphony almost continuously since the prom.  Today it was the Boult CD in my car. I agree with what Martyn Brabbin's said - to the effect that Brian knew what he was doing.  I also think that the apparent non-sequiturs, mad juxtapositions etc in the Gothic reflect what life is actually like (well, mine anyway!) - it is not a seamless and logical progression from A to B, with a predictable sequence of events - but a more chaotic jumble  of hopes, despairs, looming catastrophes, disasters and yet with occasional and surprising moments of joy - all this, I believe is reflected in the Brian Symphony; but I also increasingly think that it can't fail to have been influenced by the times of its creation - the era of World War One - with its hopes and despair for the future - so, for me, the music makes very good sense from both a personal and impersonal viewpoint.

Now, where is that Klaus Egge CD?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 01:00:23 PM
The German writer Arno Schmidt (1914-1979) also uses discontinuity and compression in his prose. That's why I have always connected him with Brian, and both have influenced me. There is one famous passage in his 'Scenes from the life of a faun' (Aus dem Leben eines Fauns, 1954) which echoes Jeffrey's observations about The Gothic uncannily:


My life?!: is not a continuum! (not simply fractured into white and black pieces by day and night! For even by day they are all someone else, the fellow who walks to the train; sits in the office; bookworms; stalks through groves; copulates; smalltalks; writes; man of a thousand thoughts; of fragmenting categories; who runs; smokes; defecates; listens to the radio; says "Commissioner, sir": that's me!): a tray full of glistening snapshots. [tr. John E. Woods]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 21, 2011, 01:56:51 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 01:00:23 PM
The German writer Arno Schmidt (1914-1979) also uses discontinuity and compression in his prose. That's why I have always connected him with Brian, and both have influenced me. There is one famous passage in his 'Scenes from the life of a faun' (Aus dem Leben eines Fauns, 1954) which echoes Jeffrey's observations about The Gothic uncannily:


My life?!: is not a continuum! (not simply fractured into white and black pieces by day and night! For even by day they are all someone else, the fellow who walks to the train; sits in the office; bookworms; stalks through groves; copulates; smalltalks; writes; man of a thousand thoughts; of fragmenting categories; who runs; smokes; defecates; listens to the radio; says "Commissioner, sir": that's me!): a tray full of glistening snapshots. [tr. John E. Woods]

Very interesting Johan! One of the reasons I now have more respect for the paintings of Manet ('A Bar at the Folies Bergere' for example) is because the relationships in the painting are unclear and ambivalent - as is often the case in real life!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on July 21, 2011, 02:25:19 PM
Good to hear that Martin Brabbins is to be the new HBS President.

I hope that he may, in due course, be able to introduce two new varieties of HB to the Prommers over the coming years:

1) The approachable, early Brian of In Memoriam (very Elgarian!) and the Burlesque Variations (which would be a good 'un for the Last Night with its great John Williams-ish rabble-rousing finale; the noble hymn-tune intoned over a sustained drumroll - very Saving Private Ryan!)

2) The mature, concise symphonist of symphonies 6, 8, 10 and 16.

The former Brian is lightweight but easy to listen to - no cause for critics to complain of "lack of a tune".

The latter Brian not only represents some of his finest work, but is moreover short, gritty and to the point - with only 20 minutes or so of music per symphony, the critics would be unable to fall back on scoring cheap points off the symphony's size, length, complexity, vulgarity etc. etc. which is such an easy, no-brainer, knee-jerk reaction to The Gothic.

They would - gosh - have to actually deal with the music. Now, they may still not like it (and there's nothing wrong with that) but they'd have to work a awful, awful lot harder to explain the reasons for their dislike. We might then get some really well-considered, thoughtful criticism instead of a flippant brush-off.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 02:49:53 PM
I am in complete agreement, Klaatu. Brian wrote a lot of very attractive and colourful pieces, too, that still bear his unmistakable signature. They could ease the way to the knottier and rather condensed pieces of his later years. I sincerely hope Martyn Brabbins will get the chance to show Havergal Brian's different sides. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 21, 2011, 03:07:15 PM
It may have been reported here already, but Chris Stock, principal percussionist of the NO Wales, was the xylophonist at the 'Gothic'. I just received a blog comment to that effect from one of the other percussion players at the Prom!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 03:22:08 PM
Quote from: Brian on July 21, 2011, 03:07:15 PM
It may have been reported here already, but Chris Stock, principal percussionist of the NO Wales, was the xylophonist at the 'Gothic'. I just received a blog comment to that effect from one of the other percussion players at the Prom!


Just checked. Yes, he was amazing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 21, 2011, 03:30:07 PM
Quote from: springrite on July 21, 2011, 11:36:37 AM
We should also learn part of the choral part of the Gothic and sing it outside of the prison so he can hear it. That must be inspirational!

Hmmmm? I am not sure that Johan would find my singing ANY of the choral part of the Gothic "inspirational" :-[ He would probably end up asking to be transferred to maximum security ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 03:32:36 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 21, 2011, 03:30:07 PM
Hmmmm? I am not sure that Johan would find my singing ANY of the choral part of the Gothic "inspirational" :-[ He would probably end up asking to be transferred to maximum security ;D


O, I  think you could easily manage some lala's in the 'jaunty march' section...  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 21, 2011, 03:37:25 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 03:32:36 PM

O, I  think you could easily manage some lala's in the 'jaunty march' section...  :D

Besides, if we do get the required number of people singing, half of them don't need to "know the music" and get away with it without anyone noticing. Just don't try to be a soloist!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 21, 2011, 03:46:48 PM
Tell you what...you do the singing and I'll start digging the tunnel  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 21, 2011, 03:49:18 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 21, 2011, 03:46:48 PM
Tell you what...you do the singing and I'll start digging the tunnel  ;) ;D

Just make sure you come out of the right side (and not CHINA)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 21, 2011, 03:53:51 PM
Yeh....the more I think about it.....who ever heard of digging a tunnel INTO a prison ::) :-[
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Rinaldo on July 21, 2011, 04:08:09 PM
I hesitated to listen to the BBC broadcast due to my absolute lack of knowledge regarding Mr. Brian (and the symphony itself) but curiosity got the better of me..

Well, it's long but it certainly didn't feel long. For that alone, I applaud the composer!

But seriously, there were some tremendous moments in this beast. Choirs had heavenly passages and one particular, massive convergence – now I'm not really sure, as I lost track of time.. about 3/4 into the work? – thrilled me to the core. In comparison, I had the chance to attend Mahler's Thousand at this year's Prague Spring and I recall the event but scarcely a note as the music itself didn't leave much of an impression, except for being a noisy mess at times. Not so with Havergal Brian! I'll be definitely returning to this puzzling man.

(recommendations on what recordings should a newcomer explore next would be graciously welcome)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 21, 2011, 04:24:49 PM
If you are looking to expand your HB horizons I would recommend three cds to you-

(1) The Lyrita disc of Symphonies No.6 'Sinfonia Tragica' and No.16-the sixteenth is one of Brian's finest creations!

(2) The Charles Mackerras coupling of Symphonies Nos. 7, 8, 9 and 31-seven, eight and nine are very accessible middle period works of real quality and distinction.

(3) The recent Dutton disc conducted by Martyn Brabbins containing Symphonies Nos. 10 and 30, the Concerto for Orchestra and the English Suite No.3. No. 10 is best understood in relation to Nos. 8 and 9.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 21, 2011, 05:05:27 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 10:19:35 AM
Bless my sister's steady hand! Btw - that I uploaded these two vids is illegal. So we'll have to wait and see how long they'll remain where they are...

I won't tell anyone if you don't. Oh, and the "Curse of the Gothic" doco is premièring at the Melbourne International Film Festival on Sunday, so I will bend the ear of the producer to see if I can get those Brisbane clips rehabilitated. *whistles nonchalantly*
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 09:41:22 PM
Quote from: Philip Legge on July 21, 2011, 05:05:27 PM
I won't tell anyone if you don't. Oh, and the "Curse of the Gothic" doco is premièring at the Melbourne International Film Festival on Sunday, so I will bend the ear of the producer to see if I can get those Brisbane clips rehabilitated. *whistles nonchalantly*

Yes! (to both the premiere and your trying to bend Veronica Fury's ear)

I really get a sense that Brian's fortunes are poised for an upturn.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 21, 2011, 09:57:11 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 09:41:22 PMI really get a sense that Brian's fortunes are poised for an upturn.

I wouldn't count your chickens before they hatch, Johan. As much as I would like to see an influx in Brian performances and recordings, you've got to be realistic about it. Yes, the Gothic was performed, but after the excitement wears off, then what? We're back where we have started from aren't we? Many classical fans who were there at this Proms concert wanted to be apart of a once-in-a-lifetime event and getting this monstrous work performed is a feat within itself, but, again, we have to be realistic about the aftermath of such an event.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 10:04:43 PM
Your warning shows sense, John. When I said the same to the Chairman of the HBS he replied 'We thought that in 1980, too, at the time of the Schmidt Gothic'. Still, what with two Gothics in one year and multiple new recordings (re-)issued, one can hope...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 21, 2011, 10:11:31 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2011, 10:04:43 PM
Your warning shows sense, John. When I said the same to the Chairman of the HBS he replied 'We thought that in 1980, too, at the time of the Schmidt Gothic'. Still, what with two Gothics in one year and multiple new recordings (re-)issued, one can hope...

Yes, we can only hope. I would like to see Brabbins take on the whole symphony cycle. Now wouldn't that be something! :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 22, 2011, 12:24:54 AM
I was at the Ole Schmidt concert and, it may just be my memory serving me badly, but I don't think that it generated nearly as much excitement as the recent performance.  Maybe because this was the first prom performance and the performance of the music was so good too. I was a lot younger and didn't engage with the music nearly so much - I definitely 'switched off' during the Te Deum.  So, I am hopeful, especially there is more Brian recordings available now - many quite cheaply with the Marco Polo CDs going on to Naxos - that there will be more interest in Brian.  I'd second Johan's recommendation for the top three Brian CDs and I'd add the Naxos version of the Gothic due to the more modern recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 22, 2011, 12:32:33 AM
I just seconded Colin's recommendations, Jeffrey...

As for the heat generated - people are masters of the media, too. Media aren't something only states and companies can use. There is a lot of arguing going on and reviewing. That simply couldn't be the case in 1980. Think of GMG. In 1980 I would have gone home and have sat brooding on lovely memories. Plus - people can Listen Again...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 22, 2011, 05:25:08 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 22, 2011, 12:32:33 AM
I just seconded Colin's recommendations, Jeffrey...

As for the heat generated - people are masters of the media, too. Media aren't something only states and companies can use. There is a lot of arguing going on and reviewing. That simply couldn't be the case in 1980. Think of GMG. In 1980 I would have gone home and have sat brooding on lovely memories. Plus - people can Listen Again...

A good point Johan - yes, that's very true.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 22, 2011, 06:34:14 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 22, 2011, 12:24:54 AM
I was at the Ole Schmidt concert and, it may just be my memory serving me badly, but I don't think that it generated nearly as much excitement as the recent performance.  Maybe because this was the first prom performance and the performance of the music was so good too. I was a lot younger and didn't engage with the music nearly so much - I definitely 'switched off' during the Te Deum.  So, I am hopeful, especially there is more Brian recordings available now - many quite cheaply with the Marco Polo CDs going on to Naxos - that there will be more interest in Brian.  I'd second Johan's recommendation for the top three Brian CDs and I'd add the Naxos version of the Gothic due to the more modern recording.

Actually the recommendations for three Brian cds came from me, Jeffrey, rather than from Johan(altho' I am gratified that he is seconding the choices ;D).

I note what you say about being (a bit) younger in 1980 and not engaging with the music as much. That is exactly what I thought would happen with my nephew on Sunday. He had been paintballing or some such energetic/violent activity all day, having got out of bed at about 6am and was totally exhausted. He had (deliberately) not listened to any Brian before the concert. To be honest I feared he might fall asleep-hard though that is to imagine with such thunderous noise at times in the Gothic. That he not only stayed awake but was moved to tears left me speechless with amazement and delight :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 22, 2011, 08:42:04 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 22, 2011, 06:34:14 AM
Actually the recommendations for three Brian cds came from me, Jeffrey, rather than from Johan(altho' I am gratified that he is seconding the choices ;D).

I note what you say about being (a bit) younger in 1980 and not engaging with the music as much. That is exactly what I thought would happen with my nephew on Sunday. He had been paintballing or some such energetic/violent activity all day, having got out of bed at about 6am and was totally exhausted. He had (deliberately) not listened to any Brian before the concert. To be honest I feared he might fall asleep-hard though that is to imagine with such thunderous noise at times in the Gothic. That he not only stayed awake but was moved to tears left me speechless with amazement and delight :)

Sorry about the misattribution Colin - your nephew's experience of HB's 'Gothic' was very moving in itself.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 22, 2011, 01:03:45 PM
I have been listening to the Brabbins Gothic several times the past few days. And I must say that, overall, Curro's Gothic can really hold its own, which makes 'Brisbane' even more of a miracle than it already was. The 'Curse' of The Gothic?! More of a blessing, I should say.


I think Curro and Brabbins are equally good in Part 1. Curro is faster in the Lento, which lessens the grandeur of its climax somewhat. Though I have been thinking that could have been intentional, Curro wanting to save everything for the tremendous conclusion of the Vivace. Brabbins takes the Lento more slowly, he is akin to Boult in this, though with the latter you get a better sense of sheer weight. The drawback of the close miking in the Brabbins is that the music is very often in close-up, where you'd sometimes prefer a total shot = a better aural perspective. The triumphal march that crowns the Vivace has more swagger in Curro, Brabbins is too fast in my opinion.


As for part 2 - there the two are about even, too, though I prefer Curro in the Judex. His chorus may begin by having lost its way, recovery is quick, and I find Curro's shaping of the movement more exciting than Brabbins', who takes the first interlude a tad too slow and in the second interlude, which should have a brisker pace overall, suddenly accelerates halfway through. Also, the choir in the Brabbins Gothic gets into real trouble navigating the fiendish harmonies and is only saved by the soprano. But the soloists of the Brabbins Gothic are better than Curro's. And the way Brabbins shapes the final movement is impeccable. His 'In te, Domine, speravi' is the most moving account ever. As for the concluding cataclysm, when I listen to my sister's film, the sound is better than in the radio recording! I really hope the sound will be further improved if a CD is made of this. I find the Brisbane Gothic stronger in this particular passage.


All in all, both readings are equally good, I think. And both deserve to be put on CD, though neither is perfect. The 'definitive' Gothic is yet to come...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 23, 2011, 12:49:04 AM
Johan, just downloading the Schmidt. Many thanks. With regard to a CD issue of the Proms performance having improved sound I wouldn't hold your breath. I have never, ever, heard a decent recording that has been made in the RAH. A couple of horrors spring to mind: VW Job Boult/Everest and Philharmonia/Broughton Planets. It's well known in the industry as being a terrible venue. You have to mic close to eliminate the reverberation and this robs the music of any bloom. Even the installation of the mushrooms in the ceiling failed to solve this issue. The BBC enginers are top class - listen to their work with the regional orchestra such as the BBC Phil (now THERE'S  a band!) and maybe they can do a bit of fiddling with the mix but the actual sound quality won't be very glamorous. At least we have the radio broadcast to listen to - in very decent quality - and for that maybe we should be grateful. It's a shame that we don't have something similar for the Brisbane recording - couldn't the HBS twist a couple of arms here?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 23, 2011, 01:20:30 AM
I sent my mother a few choice quotes from David Nice's naughty review of the Gothic and she wrote back:

"The music critics must be off their meds or their rockers.  That piece was powerful.  It had a cohesive tone and theme, it communicated those extraordinarily well and it was accessible to all levels of music lovers.  Each movement offered something enjoyable and the finale was unexpected and unconventional.  Perhaps our Mr Nice was expecting discordant cacophony???"

That last of course being a euphemism for atonal honking  ;D

@John Whitmore: Try the BBC Legends Svetlanov disc with Scheherazade and the Poem of Ecstasy. In David Hurwitz' memorable, and spot-on, words, "It's great fun to listen to the last three minutes or so [of Scriabin's poem] to see who's going to win: the sonic black-hole acoustic of the Royal Albert Hall, or Svetlanov and his crack ensemble. Suffice it to say that Svetlanov wins... The audience goes nuts at the end, and who can blame them? You might go just as nuts in your listening room" And I do, every time!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 23, 2011, 02:12:46 AM
I've just listened to parts of the Schmidt performance for the first time. Putting interpretative details and the horrid acoustic to one side there is one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the other recordings of the piece and that's the LSO. This is a true world class band in full flow and it shows. As a kid my diet of live concerts tended to be Halle/Barbirolli and CBSO/Fremaux at the De Montfort Hall in Leicester and when on holidays the Bournemouth S O /Silvestri. This was the benchmark I had. My ears were finally opened when I heard the Berlin Phil in rehearsal at the Philharmonie (Tchaik 4) and again when I heard the LSO/Previn doing Rach 2 live. The playing was of a different order all together. Just no comparison. As good as regional orchestras were in the 60s and 70s - and they have improved enormously since - the sheer virtuoisty and strength in depth of the string playing in particular reaches a different level when you get into the top 6 in the world. That's what the LSO are. The brass section sounds great - I assume that Maurice Murphy is playing 1st trumpet? Johan - many thanks, I just love this!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 23, 2011, 02:18:34 AM
At your service.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on July 23, 2011, 05:49:48 AM
Quote from: Brian on July 23, 2011, 01:20:30 AM
I sent my mother a few choice quotes from David Nice's naughty review of the Gothic and she wrote back:

"The music critics must be off their meds or their rockers. 

Having re-read some of the most vociferous negative criticism about The Gothic, I now realise that what it most of it really boils down to is:

1)"It's too big!"

2)"It's too loud!"

3)"It's too long!"

4)"It's too complicated!"

5) "Because it's too big, loud, long and complicated, it's vulgar!"

6)"The composer was self-taught, so that explains why it's too big, loud, long, complicated and vulgar!"

Right. The Symphony is big, loud, long and complicated - er, stunning insights, there.....
And the composer was self-taught. Well, that explains everything. (Funny, though, that Elgar was self-taught yet nobody uses that fact to criticise his music.)

But de gustibus non est disputandum, I guess!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 23, 2011, 07:00:31 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on July 23, 2011, 05:49:48 AM
Having re-read some of the most vociferous negative criticism about The Gothic, I now realise that what it most of it really boils down to is:

1)"It's too big!"

2)"It's too loud!"

3)"It's too long!"

4)"It's too complicated!"

5) "Because it's too big, loud, long and complicated, it's vulgar!"

6)"The composer was self-taught, so that explains why it's too big, loud, long, complicated and vulgar!"

Right. The Symphony is big, loud, long and complicated - er, stunning insights, there.....
And the composer was self-taught. Well, that explains everything. (Funny, though, that Elgar was self-taught yet nobody uses that fact to criticise his music.)

But de gustibus non est disputandum, I guess!

This is all subjective rubbish isn't it. The Proms performance has opened the door for me on a piece that has been on my CD shelves for some time (Lenard and Boult) without really getting a serious hearing. I now enjoy the orchestral sections but the rest doesn't quite grab me yet. Here is an alternative view I would like to place on record:
1) It's not big enough
2) It's too quiet
3) It's ridiculously short
4) It's too simple compared to Xenakis and Carter
5) It really needs to be more vulgar
6) The composer was self taught but he spent too much time studying. He should have remained totally untaught
Your point about Elgar is spot on. The 100 plus CDs I have of his magnificent music mustn't be that good after all. I will take all these discs to the charity shops on Monday.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on July 23, 2011, 07:20:42 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on July 23, 2011, 07:00:31 AM
This is all subjective rubbish isn't it. The Proms performance has opened the door for me on a piece that has been on my CD shelves for some time (Lenard and Boult) without really getting a serious hearing. I now enjoy the orchestral sections but the rest doesn't quite grab me yet. Here is an alternative view I would like to place on record:
1) It's not big enough
2) It's too quiet
3) It's ridiculously short
4) It's too simple compared to Xenakis and Carter
5) It really needs to be more vulgar
6) The composr was self taught but he spent too much time studying. He should have remained totally untaught
Your point about Elgar is spot on. The 100 plus CDs I have of his magnificent music mustn't be that good after all. I will take all these discs to the charity shops on Monday.

;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Herman on July 23, 2011, 07:27:14 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on July 23, 2011, 05:49:48 AM
Having re-read some of the most vociferous negative criticism about The Gothic, I now realise that what it most of it really boils down to is:

1)"It's too big!"

2)"It's too loud!"

3)"It's too long!"

4)"It's too complicated!"

5) "Because it's too big, loud, long and complicated, it's vulgar!"

6)"The composer was self-taught, so that explains why it's too big, loud, long, complicated and vulgar!"

Right. The Symphony is big, loud, long and complicated - er, stunning insights, there.....
And the composer was self-taught. Well, that explains everything. (Funny, though, that Elgar was self-taught yet nobody uses that fact to criticise his music.)

But de gustibus non est disputandum, I guess!

From what I have seen and read the central criticism is not that is loud, or vulgar or complicated or even too simple (this can be said about lots of big symphonic works) but that it fails to make its point(s) in a structurally cogent way. I'm not saying that is or is not true, but that is what I have always heard about this piece.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 23, 2011, 07:49:15 AM
You're right, Herman, that may well be what it boils down to. But I must say I've always been confused by that assessment. The piece seems wholly convincing from a structural point of view to my ears, and at the same time offers us a wonderfully skewed and personal approach. The whole thing blazes with conviction - you don't write a Te Deum like that, with that kind of proportioning - with e.g. a gigantic movement set aside just for the words Judex crederis esse venturus - without meaning it, and having your reasons, and knowing what you are doing, and Brian clearly Means It: we may guess at his motives for setting the text as he does, but the result convinces powerfully. The line of musical thought that runs through the piece, too, is so superbly controlled, so that we start in one world and finish in another, with the progression from one state to the other sometimes imperceptible, sometimes aprupt, sometimes even working backwards, but always with the end point in mind.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 23, 2011, 07:56:25 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on July 23, 2011, 05:49:48 AM(Funny, though, that Elgar was self-taught yet nobody uses that fact to criticise his music.)

Many composers were self-taught. One of my absolute favorites, Villa-Lobos, was one of them. His music can sometimes be a little rough in regard to structure, but you soon forget about this when let down your guard and just soak up the music. Such a joyous experience.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 23, 2011, 07:58:27 AM
I can see the reappearance of 'Sforzando' at some point if we're not careful.
Perhaps it's a good thing Brian lost 'Prometheus Unbound'. Just imagine what the critics would make of that?!
While I enjoy allot of Elgar,I must say some of his big choral works bore me to tears. 'Gerontius',in particular,is so morbid and solemn. The dreaded Hurwitz,who is often such a pain,doesn't seem to like it very much,and for once I quite admire his chutzpah for stepping out of line. Everyone in Britain regards it as some kind of supreme masterpiece and god forbid that anyone should criticise it. A bloke on his deathbed? Talk about Edwardian gloom. I want something to cheer me up,not grind me down. And it just seems to go on and on and on and on. Cutting your own throat seems more fun.
Yet,outside Britain,who gives a fig about it.
As to Brian,he's a 'shamateur' who didn't know what he was doing. Throw him to the wolves!!!

NB: No offence intended if you admire 'Gerontius'. I'm just making a point.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 23, 2011, 09:20:57 AM
Listened to the Gothic very attentively via headphone at the airport. Stunning, amazing and terribly flawed and to my ear and brain messy at the same time. Have to say that I love it for all of the above reasons. Never boring!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 23, 2011, 09:29:06 AM
It all sounds pretty marvellous to me. Very OTT in places,particularly in the first and second movements and parts of the 'Judex';but like the similarly loud bits in Gliere's wonderful,blockbuster,technicolor 3rd symphony,that's part of the fun of it.
Brian IS more subtle though!
  Regarding some earlier comments. I can't help wondering what the critics would make of a Prom performance of the 'Sinfonia Tragica' or 10th symphony?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 23, 2011, 09:31:41 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 23, 2011, 09:29:06 AM
Brian IS more subtle though!

The damn thing is an hour and a half long so he had to give some of the 1,000 players a break or two from time to time!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 23, 2011, 09:41:30 AM
Speaking of Gliere. I recently stocked up with a couple of Gliere cd's. I enjoyed all of them,especially the three symphonies. The Second has been mentioned a few times in various Forum threads,and is in many ways just as good,or even better,than it's more famous companion. Nevertheless,I rather like the First. I have the Downes recording & I think it is beatifully scored,has some lovely lush scoring and I notice that one of the critics on Musicweb appears to enjoy it as much as I do.
It seems to me that Gliere is another composer,whose output is somewhat overshadowed by the notoriety of one particular very large,(and sometimes very loud!) composition.
Not that I am in any way comparing the two,of course!

MORAL: If you're a composer,DON'T write one colossal,ambitious work,that dwarfs
           the rest of you're output.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 23, 2011, 09:50:56 AM
Thinking about the Proms I would have thought that a Brian programme of - just my suggestion to get the ball rolling - Symphony 10, English Suite No.5 and the violin concerto would go down pretty well. BBC Symphony Orchestra and Brabbins with the stick. This programme show a few of Brian's different faces and none of it can be described as too long/short/fat/thin/loud/soft/big/small blah blah blah.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 23, 2011, 09:55:11 AM
Or (and!) the 'Symphonic Dances' from 'The Tigers'. That would be fantastic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 23, 2011, 10:38:31 AM
And come to that,why should a Prom performance of Brian have to be the Gothic,anyway? Not that I'm complaining (I'm not!),but I don't think there's any right minded Brian admirer who would regard the 'Sinfonia Tragica','Eighth symphony or 10th,(for example) as inferior works?
I certainly don't!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on July 23, 2011, 10:48:29 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 21, 2011, 04:24:49 PM
If you are looking to expand your HB horizons I would recommend three cds to you-

(1) The Lyrita disc of Symphonies No.6 'Sinfonia Tragica' and No.16-the sixteenth is one of Brian's finest creations!

(2) The Charles Mackerras coupling of Symphonies Nos. 7, 8, 9 and 31-seven, eight and nine are very accessible middle period works of real quality and distinction.

(3) The recent Dutton disc conducted by Martyn Brabbins containing Symphonies Nos. 10 and 30, the Concerto for Orchestra and the English Suite No.3. No. 10 is best understood in relation to Nos. 8 and 9.


To these firm recommendations I would add what could be considered the two finest entries in the Marco Polo/ Naxos series:


(4) Symphonies 11 (1954) & 15 (1960), For Valour (1902-06) and Dr Merryheart (1911-12)
NAXOS 8.572014

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZdnSN7TfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


(5) Symphonies 17 (1960-61) & 32 (1968), Festal Dance (1908) and In Memoriam (1910)
NAXOS 8.572020

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vpoTIqrWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


I sincerely hope that Martyn Brabbins' interest in Brian will result before too long in really first-rate recordings of many more pieces, most urgently Symphonies 2, 5 and 27.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on July 23, 2011, 10:52:14 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 23, 2011, 10:38:31 AM
And come to that,why should a Prom performance of Brian have to be the Gothic,anyway? Not that I'm complaining (I'm not!),but I don't think there's any right minded Brian admirer who would regard the 'Sinfonia Tragica','Eighth symphony or 10th,(for example) as inferior works?
I certainly don't!
That was partly why I didn't go - I prefer his later symphonies. Although given the feedback I am regretting the decision slightly.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 23, 2011, 10:57:41 AM
Indeed,but I really DO think the first three cd's are the best 'entry point'. The compressed structures of Brian's later music can be harder for some to digest,and surely the first three cd's are enough for any Brian novice to get to grips with before moving onto the more elliptical utterances on those Naxos cd's,much as I love 'em?!
With due respect.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 23, 2011, 10:58:34 AM
Quote from: Albion on July 23, 2011, 10:48:29 AM

To these firm recommendations I would add what could be considered the two finest entries in the Marco Polo/ Naxos series:


(4) Symphonies 11 (1954) & 15 (1960), For Valour (1902-06) and Dr Merryheart (1911-12)
NAXOS 8.572014

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZdnSN7TfL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


(5) Symphonies 17 (1960-61) & 32 (1968), Festal Dance (1908) and In Memoriam (1910)
NAXOS 8.572020

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vpoTIqrWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)


I sincerely hope that Martyn Brabbins' interest in Brian will result before too long in really first-rate recordings of many more pieces, most urgently Symphonies 2, 5 and 27.

And for sheer historical significance because this gave many people their first hearing of Havergal Brian then it has to the the Unicorn coupling of Symphonies 10 and 21.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 23, 2011, 11:02:21 AM
I just noticed poor old Amy Winehouse has died. Brian's had it now!!!!!
Regarding you're comment about preferring late Brian. So you'd be queueing outside the RAH for Brian's 10th?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 23, 2011, 11:06:06 AM
That was the first Brian Lp I ever bought. I'm in full agreement with you there,John.
It's a pity that the only cd's available are s/h copies sold at less than reasonable prices.
£18.74 on Amazon! That's the lowest I've seen.
Albion's recommendations are d*** good follow ups though.
(Buy 'em all?!!!)
(That's better,three posts in a row is a bit greedy!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on July 23, 2011, 11:20:36 AM
5-10, 16, 30, 31 and others have such potential for wider-appeal. A combination of any of these works would provoke admiration for at least a couple as well as show off Brian's compositional range.

If you want a good PR hook how about a concert of five numbered symphonies rather than just one large one :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 23, 2011, 11:23:44 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 23, 2011, 07:58:27 AM
I can see the reappearance of 'Sforzando' at some point if we're not careful.

Can't have that, can we? Only true believers allowed on this thread. But continue to make my point for me, as if ridiculing anyone who disagrees with your assessments is somehow going to "put them in their place" and "make them see the error of their ways." Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 23, 2011, 11:24:53 AM


                                          !
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 23, 2011, 11:25:14 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on July 23, 2011, 11:20:36 AM
5-10, 16, 30, 31 and others have such potential for wider-appeal. A combination of any of these works would provoke admiration for at least a couple as well as show off Brian's compositional range.

If you want a good PR hook how about a concert of five numbered symphonies rather than just one large one :)

Or the 8-9-10 trilogy - it would be marvellous to hear them presented in sequence, by a single orchestra/conductor. But really, I think many of those earlier ones would go down a treat.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on July 23, 2011, 11:34:11 AM
Re. more theoretical Brian programming: I often find myself experiencing a reoccuring thought as to what the 4th would sound like when presented alongside other works - perhaps the overture-style 6th, or more as a two-parter with perhaps the 7th opening. Such couplings could hardly fail to be crowd-pleasing. 8-10 might be scary even for me :\
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 23, 2011, 11:42:40 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on July 23, 2011, 11:34:11 AM
Re. more theoretical Brian programming: I often find myself experiencing a reoccuring thought as to what the 4th would sound like when presented alongside other works - perhaps the overture-style 6th, or more as a two-parter with perhaps the 7th opening.

In honesty, the opening minute of the 7th is an embarrassment. Those fanfares sound like something out of a 4th-rate movie score. I was shocked to hear something so amateurish from presumably a serious composer.

OK, OK, I'll bow out. Only committed Brianites allowed on this thread . . . .  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 23, 2011, 11:54:02 AM
Never sounded that way to me. Did you listen to the rest?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 23, 2011, 11:56:38 AM
All these performances of No1 to choose from and still only two recordings of No 4. The Poole is the one for me. Can't stand the 'Marco Polo',but maybe that's just me. Brabbins has got to be the man for it.
No's 3,4 & 5 in a row. What a thought. Of course,I've done it,on tape and cd. But in  first class concert performances?
Incidentally,I'm not really that happy with the Hyperion recording of No 3. I think it could be done allot better,somehow. It's also sounds very 'boxy',almost as if Marco Polo recorded it. Again,Brabbins the man!
I agree about the opening fanfare of the Seventh being the 'worst' part,in a way. (It's the same with 'Also sprach Zarathustra'. The rest is so much better,although of course you hear that motif all/most of the way through).
One of my favourite Brian symphonies though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on July 23, 2011, 12:03:34 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 23, 2011, 11:42:40 AM
In honesty, the opening minute of the 7th is an embarrassment. Those fanfares sound like something out of a 4th-rate movie score. I was shocked to hear something so amateurish from presumably a serious composer.

It sounded very strange to me, but this was only from unfamiliarity - every time I have heard it since it makes me smile - pure fantasy, crazy medievalism, just... weird! :D The rest of the symphony is almost standard as far as Brian's music goes, though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 23, 2011, 12:09:08 PM
Quote from: Luke on July 23, 2011, 11:54:02 AM
Never sounded that way to me. Did you listen to the rest?

Doesn't matter. I'm just the resident philistine.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 23, 2011, 12:10:31 PM
Yes,not sure what Brian was thinking of there. I shall have to look at the 'sleeve notes' & the HBS site. You half expect Tony Curtis dressed as a medieval Prince,complete with mandatory tights.
The Rank movie gong man would definately approve.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 23, 2011, 12:12:33 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on July 23, 2011, 12:03:34 PM
It sounded very strange to me, but this was only from unfamiliarity - every time I have heard it since it makes me smile - pure fantasy, crazy medievalism, just... weird! :D The rest of the symphony is almost standard as far as Brian's music goes, though.

Completely agree that the fanfare works - have never heard it as a problem at all. Brian's openings are always smething special, I think. The mock-Handelian one of the 4th is another one with such an unusual set-aside nature - an utter stroke of genius, I think, that one. (The fanfares in The Gothic are superb things too) And yes, here in the 7th there is that odd medievalism there that you mention - but I think it runs through the whole piece, with the Strasburg cathedral bell in various forms underpinning the whole mad fantasy.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 23, 2011, 12:36:53 PM



                                                "!"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 23, 2011, 02:37:48 PM
Quote from: Luke on July 23, 2011, 12:12:33 PM
Completely agree that the fanfare works - have never heard it as a problem at all. Brian's openings are always smething special, I think. The mock-Handelian one of the 4th is another one with such an unusual set-aside nature - an utter stroke of genius, I think, that one. (The fanfares in The Gothic are superb things too) And yes, here in the 7th there is that odd medievalism there that you mention - but I think it runs through the whole piece, with the Strasburg cathedral bell in various forms underpinning the whole mad fantasy.

....and we should remember that Havergal Brian had a really wicked sense of humour! He knows exactly what he is doing and where we may gasp in surprise or even horror I suspect he wanted precisely that reaction ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 23, 2011, 02:45:16 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on July 23, 2011, 12:09:08 PM
Doesn't matter. I'm just the resident philistine.

Haha you're a hoot!  :-*
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 23, 2011, 02:50:22 PM
Where can one get hold of the Schmidt version of the Gothic? I have the Lenard for sure, and downloaded another, which I thought was the Boult but now I'm not so sure. The timings are
11:15
10:36
11:50
Is this the Boult? If so, where can I hear the Schmidt?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 23, 2011, 02:54:01 PM
Look here for some info on the Schmidt Gothic, by Albion...


http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1169.msg16221.html#msg16221 (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1169.msg16221.html#msg16221)


And here is my folder:


http://www.mediafire.com/?ljyh205e6n1xf (http://www.mediafire.com/?ljyh205e6n1xf)


Albion provides links to some background material by the HBS. David Brown, former editor of the Newsletter, writes in 1980: "If one knew nothing of the work, had not attended the concert, and read only the critics in the biggest-circulation papers afterwards, one might imagine that here was a white elephant delivered to a decent burial.  The audience reaction was of course the perfect answer to that notion"...


Not much has changed since.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 23, 2011, 07:41:38 PM
Comparative timings available at : http://www.havergalbrian.org/sym1.htm (http://www.havergalbrian.org/sym1.htm)

From your timings Guido, that's almost certainly the Boult.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on July 23, 2011, 11:48:29 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on July 23, 2011, 11:34:11 AM
Re. more theoretical Brian programming: I often find myself experiencing a reoccuring thought as to what the 4th would sound like when presented alongside other works - perhaps the overture-style 6th, or more as a two-parter with perhaps the 7th opening. Such couplings could hardly fail to be crowd-pleasing. 8-10 might be scary even for me :\

Entire concerts devoted to Brian are going to be as rare as hens' teeth, so if you were able to schedule a work of his within a mixed programme, who might be the accompanying composers and what might be the accompanying piece(s)?

The tactic could either be an attempt to point up links with other composers, or it could be just the opposite - a jarring juxtaposition to highlight the originality of Brian's style.

To get some mileage out of the former approach, first of all I would programme two quite different symphonies, perhaps 5 and 16. Brian's music would sit very well alongside Berlioz, another maverick original (although perhaps impractical, it would be great to give a rare outing to something as wacky as Lélio), and also probably something representative of intricate counterpoint (one of the cornerstones of Brian's compositional technique): by playing Elgar's orchestration of Bach's Fantasia & Fugue in C minor, BWV 537 (Op. 86) you would get two sympathetic links for the price of one!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 23, 2011, 11:59:47 PM
I like your thinking, Albion. No, an all-Brian concert is something for a parallel universe. But an evening of Brian and other congenial composers could work. When are you starting as Controller of Music? 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on July 24, 2011, 12:05:59 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 23, 2011, 11:59:47 PMWhen are you starting as Controller of Music?

Due to popular demand, I take up the position on the twelvetieth of the month with an 'x' in it.

;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 12:12:17 AM
That soon? O happy day!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 24, 2011, 12:26:48 AM
Quote from: Guido on July 23, 2011, 02:50:22 PM
Where can one get hold of the Schmidt version of the Gothic? I have the Lenard for sure, and downloaded another, which I thought was the Boult but now I'm not so sure. The timings are
11:15
10:36
11:50
Is this the Boult? If so, where can I hear the Schmidt?

Guido, download the Schmidt from Johan's folder. As I mentioned in an earlier post this version has one advantage - the LSO in full cry.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 03:39:17 AM
Kenneth Woods has done a real critic's work. Very gratifying. Is Brian entering the main stream?


A few quotes:


"Well, one week ago, if you had told me that much of the last seven days of my life would have been dedicated to trying to get to grips with the music of Havergal Brian, I would have smiled at you with condescending bemusement."


"Love it or hate it, one has to admit that last Sunday's concert has stimulated more discussion and debate, more outrage and admiration than any concert I can remember in a long time."


"My guess, however, is that this week, against all odds, the Gothic became something like a standard-repertoire piece."


"I stand by what I said the piece is in my last post. It's worth the effort because of what Brian has to say about the Great War, about the human psyche pushed to the breaking point, about the bankruptcy of Romanticism. I think the piece is funny, and that the humor has a serious point to make. I think the piece has some of the most compelling evocations of evil, banality, terror and moral outrage I've come across in a while.

Not all of the piece is on the same level- some of the bits that sound like a second-rate imitation of The Planets really bother me, as does some of the music that sounds more like a film soundtrack than a symphony. But, there are lots of "great" works that are not all on the same level. Nothing in the first 3 movements of the Mozart Jupiter is on the same level as the Finale. I still have serious doubts about whether the Gothic is a great work, but it has the makings of one."



http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/23/havergal-brian-the-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms-a-few-more-thoughts/ (http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/23/havergal-brian-the-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms-a-few-more-thoughts/)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 04:10:13 AM
Our very own Philip Legge, after seeing 'The Curse of the "Gothic"'...


http://www.twitvid.com/MMKMB (http://www.twitvid.com/MMKMB)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 04:23:36 AM
For your delectation, I here have a link to my Brisbane Gothic folder, with a better-quality recording. Got it from the tooth-fairy. I think it is John Curro who comes closest yet in reproducing the white heat of Brian's inspiration. Which is not to say everything is perfect. But this is a very compelling reading, especially when you hear the enhanced sound...


http://www.mediafire.com/?km7z6cl54mpyv (http://www.mediafire.com/?km7z6cl54mpyv)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 04:40:42 AM
Don't wish to intrude,but would you mind if I downloaded the Schmidt,too? This was the first version I ever heard & I recorded (via a cassette recorder propped in front of the radio!). John's descriptions of it are driving me mad!

NB: I have no affiliation with the Aries Record Label or any other Pirate with good taste
      in music.

Also,regarding my comments about the Seventh last night. I would like to point out that my observations about the opening fanfare were not entirely serious. As Johan may know,from previous posts,I am very keen on the Seventh & I actually regard it as one of my favourites. In fact,I'm itching to put it on right now!  As to my Tony Curtis analogy. Tights or not,I think Curtis was a pretty good actor. So,what's wrong with that? As to the why's & wherefore's of Brian's use of that fanare,I'm inclined to agree with Dundonell.
But I did have a cold & it WAS getting late. Aplogies anyway,Luke.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 04:45:53 AM
Just being polite.
Alternative: rob the bank.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 04:49:20 AM
Tuck in, cilgwyn, tuck in.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 04:54:53 AM
Thanks!
I haven't heard this version for at least twenty years! Yet it was THE one I grew up with.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on July 24, 2011, 05:00:35 AM
With the opportunity to now access no less than five recordings of The Gothic (Boult, Schmidt, Lenard, Curro and Brabbins) -

:o

- there is plenty of scope for fascinating comparative listening! As with all significant works of art, no one interpretation of it is "definitive" - and that is the way it should be.

:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 05:05:08 AM
Indeed! These are heady days for Brian lovers (Sforzando - Brianistas). May they become even headier!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: The new erato on July 24, 2011, 05:19:38 AM
Anybody read this?:

http://www.overgrownpath.com/2011/07/classical-music-beyond-twitter.html (http://www.overgrownpath.com/2011/07/classical-music-beyond-twitter.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 05:24:37 AM
Quote from: The new erato on July 24, 2011, 05:19:38 AM
Anybody read this?:

http://www.overgrownpath.com/2011/07/classical-music-beyond-twitter.html (http://www.overgrownpath.com/2011/07/classical-music-beyond-twitter.html)


I only read quotes from it. Thanks. Again, the writer attacks the fans, and doesn't seriously engage with the work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 05:25:44 AM
It IS extroadinary! Meanwhile,'Don Giovanni' & 'The Magic Flute' have been removed from my 5cd changer & have been replaced by the following Brian cd's:

1) No 3 Helios
2 & 3) The emi 'twofer' 0f 7-9 (etc)
4) The Dutton cd of No 10
5) Empty for now,but 'we shall see'?

It can take cd-r's,apparently. Haven't tried them.....yet!



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 24, 2011, 05:30:27 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 23, 2011, 11:06:06 AM
That was the first Brian Lp I ever bought. I'm in full agreement with you there,John.
It's a pity that the only cd's available are s/h copies sold at less than reasonable prices.
£18.74 on Amazon! That's the lowest I've seen.
Albion's recommendations are d*** good follow ups though.
(Buy 'em all?!!!)
(That's better,three posts in a row is a bit greedy!)

Here's a link to mp3s taken from the Unicorn CD. If you want higher quality let me know and I will upload the files again.
http://www.mediafire.com/?21ruet3g4tmlc
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on July 24, 2011, 05:33:24 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 04:40:42 AM
Also,regarding my comments about the Seventh last night. I would like to point out that my observations about the opening fanfare were not entirely serious.

I think it is also Brian having a bit of a Malcolm Arnold moment - where Arnold was of a later generation able to parody pop tunes and the like, Brian's frame of reference was an earlier tradition.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 05:44:00 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on July 24, 2011, 05:33:24 AM
I think it is also Brian having a bit of a Malcolm Arnold moment - where Arnold was of a later generation able to parody pop tunes and the like, Brian's frame of reference was an earlier tradition.


Exactly! Think of the music-hall song 'Has Anybody Here Seen Kelly?', which he uses as a basis for variations in The Tigers. And which, by the way, also figures in James Joyce's Ulysses.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 05:49:49 AM
Thank you John. I think I have these though. But I shall check. There are so many music files on here now & some are on an external drive,which is currently in a cardboard box! A pity Regis,alto or some label can't re-release them though.
  Going on from Albion's helful suggestions,I suppose I could also recommend the Helios (Hyperion) cd of Brian's 3rd,which I currently have going on in my earole! I first heard this via the Aries LP. I was a teenager then & I had no idea it was a Pirate,although I remember thinking that the 'cover art' was the worst I'd ever seen. Next stop was the Hyperion cassette release of the third. Then I got my first cd player!
  I should have known the Aries Lp was 'dodgy'. I bought if from 'Michael G Thomas. Anyone remember their ads,in the Gramophone classifieds? Their lists were full of strange sounding stuff.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 05:52:02 AM
Yes,I remember my mother singing the song to me when I played it ('The Tigers Prologue'),all those years ago.
By the way,does the song refer to a real person? They often did.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 05:52:16 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 05:49:49 AM
Thank you John. I think I have these though. But I shall check. There are so many music files on here now & some are on an external drive,which is currently in a cardboard box! A pity Regis,alto or some label can't re-release them though.
  Going on from Albion's helful suggestions,I suppose I could also recommend the Helios (Hyperion) cd of Brian's 3rd,which I currently have going on in my earole! I first heard this via the Aries LP. I was a teenager then & I had no idea it was a Pirate,although I remember thinking that the 'cover art' was the worst I'd ever seen. Next stop was the Hyperion cassette release of the third. Then I got my first cd player!
  I should have known the Aries Lp was 'dodgy'. I bought if from 'Michael G Thomas. Anyone remember their ads,in the Gramophone classifieds? Their lists were full of strange sounding stuff.


I must say, though, that that pirated recording of the first-ever (BBC) performance of the work is, in my opinion, superior to the Hyperion...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 05:54:34 AM
I was going to say that,but everyone always says the Aries Lp's (except the 'Gothic') were so awful. So I have kept quiet.
My only problem with it was the 'cover photo'!

NB: I notice from you're quote,that due to a mis-type I actually referred to Albion's
      suggestions as 'helful'! Sorry about this. Only one 'l',luckily!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 06:00:57 AM
Wait a minute. Silly me. You're referring to the performance. Oh dear,that was a blooper. Still,in my defence I haven't heard that Aries Lp for at least thirty years
and there has been some criticism of the sound quality of the Hyperion recording.
So maybe I'm not a COMPLETE idiot?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 06:06:01 AM
The Wales Symphony Orchestra conducted by Colin Wilson?
Aries had a sense of humour,apparently.
Of course,to my teenage years the Aries Lp would have 'sounded' exciting,anyway.
(Last edit!!!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 06:13:22 AM
I remember being obsessed for weeks by the soundworld of the Third (during the 1980s). The Hyperion sounds too dry. I was there in 1988, at the Maida Vale studios, when Lionel Friend conducted a public performance. The acoustic was bad for Brian, the work needs room.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 06:22:24 AM
It really needs a new recording. It would be VERY rewarding. Not one of Hyperion's best & they have never shown any interest since. I'm grateful though (for that cd).
The real Colin Wilson,(the 'conductor' of the Aries Pirate) wrote 'The Outsider',didn't he? An in joke I presume?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 06:24:43 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 06:22:24 AM
It really needs a new recording. It would be VERY rewarding. Not one of Hyperion's best & they have never shown any interest since. I'm grateful though (for that cd).
The real Colin Wilson,(the 'conductor' of the Aries Pirate) wrote 'The Outsider',didn't he? An in joke I presume?!


Presumably. He also was, if I remember correctly, a member of the HBS once. I saw his name on a membership list a long time ago.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 06:32:57 AM
'Allusion to',I mean (I'm keeping an 'eye' on a fish pie,at the moment!) So Colin Wilson was a member? Any other famous people or 'celebrities'?  Or maybe you're not allowed to divulge.

(The 'Naxos' Violin Concerto has just been added to the cd changer)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 06:59:57 AM
'Not',I gather. That's understandable. I bet there are a few. It's a fairly well known fact,isn't it,that 'Dame Edna Everage' is a fan of Rued Langgaard!
  Incidentally,I've had that fish pie now & it was delicious (Fish on Sunday?).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 07:06:09 AM
Not so quick! SF writer Alan Dean Foster is a member. He came over from Arizona last Sunday. I had lunch with him on Monday with other HBS members, only realising it was him afterwards!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: The new erato on July 24, 2011, 07:14:48 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 05:24:37 AM

I only read quotes from it. Thanks. Again, the writer attacks the fans, and doesn't seriously engage with the work.

The entry for 21st July gives lots of links to reactions to the performance:

http://www.therestisnoise.com/ (http://www.therestisnoise.com/)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 07:21:26 AM
I must admit I hadn't heard of him,but I just put his name into 'search' at Amazon and ALLOT of people have! I see that his 'Spellsinger' trilogy is particularly popular,as are his novelisation's of the 'Alien' movies. Sound quite entertaining too. I might try one. But it will be a 'proper' book,not one of those,'kindle' things'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 24, 2011, 08:01:40 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 04:23:36 AM
For your delectation, I here have a link to my Brisbane Gothic folder, with a better-quality recording. Got it from the tooth-fairy. I think it is John Curro who comes closest yet in reproducing the white heat of Brian's inspiration. Which is not to say everything is perfect. But this is a very compelling reading, especially when you hear the enhanced sound...


http://www.mediafire.com/?km7z6cl54mpyv (http://www.mediafire.com/?km7z6cl54mpyv)

I've made my Brisbane CDs and will listen to them later. Please thank the tooth fairy for me and ask him/her if there is a video of the Proms concert available.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 09:13:43 AM
I'll be making my cd's as soon as I can! I can hopefully then load them onto the above mentioned cd changer,which is currently 'trundling' through the above mentioned list. Although,I listened to No 3 TWICE,when I loaded up the Naxos Violin Concerto. At the moment I'm on cd 2 of the emi 'twofer' (Symphony 9). Hopefully,it won't be too long before I can use it to listen to all the Brian symphonies in sequence! Listening through them in this way is VERY satisfying as there are so many connections between them,aren't there? And you get more insight into the way Brians musical thought processes evolved......and my 'robot' friend puts them on for me!

A pity Brian can't find a cd company as inspired as Dacapo to give him the complete cycle he deserves. Still,when I bought my Danacord Lp of Langgaard's 6th & Music of the Sphere's back in the late 70's (early 80's?) who could have predicted the revival that would follow?


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 09:29:44 AM
Last year I had all 32 on my mp3 player, and played them non-stop. Yes, they all hang together, they really form one big world. Of course, there are symphonies I like less and don't often listen to, but that can be because there is only the one performance - who knows what will come out when another orchestra and conductor do the same piece? With five performances of 'The Gothic' it begins to be possible, as Albion wrote here earlier, to really understand what sort of work it is and to compare and contrast interpretations. Fascinating!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 10:10:29 AM
All 32 on you're Mp3 player! I shouldn't have mentioned my cd player,should I? (I'm quite impressed,mind,but I wouldn't like to try carrying it around with me. I would need a rucksack & a portable generator!!!!!)
  With respect to the actual music. I recently tried the 8th and 9th & they didn't seem to grab me as much as they used to. (I nearly wore out my Lp copy). This way everything (?) seems to 'fall into place'. Although,not being a musician or as knowledgeable about music as some of the other people on this forum,I wouldn't like to really explain exactly what I mean by that. All I know is that even the 'lighter' works like 'The Tinkers Wedding' comedy' Overture and the English Suite No 3 seem to become part of some kind of extended cycle,that isn't just about the symphonies themselves. You also realise that these 'lighter works' are actually as complex and thought provoking as the symphonies themselves. In fact,to really understand Brian more deeply,it might be useful to (sometimes?) play,not just the symphonies sequentially,but some of these other works as well?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 10:20:49 AM
Re symphonies 8 & 9 - never forget you have been listening to only 1 performance of both works since 1978! You aren't grabbed because you know the performances too well...


Yes, I have been listening to Brian's orchestral works in a row, too. Very enjoyable.


And now all the concertos are there, too - the Violin Concerto, the Cello Concerto and the Concerto for Orchestra. The last two share the same (late) language. The Cello Concerto is Brian at his most beautiful, I think, the Concerto for Orchestra opens very gruffly, but mellows as it goes along, and ends dancing. The Violin Concerto is from the 30s and is very symphonic, especially the opening movement. I love it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 10:31:06 AM
They DO now. But then this can happen. Only recently,an old enthusiasm,the equally underrated (but better served on cd) Martinu was only revived,after a long fallow period, by the GMG thread!
What has just been grabbing now,is No 30. I never realised it was so lush. The parts for harp and the sheer beauty of it. The 'lushness' of parts of the score evokes some of his earlier music,albeit briefly,I suppose.
Onto the Naxos cd of the Violin concerto (cd 5 on this contraption!). Hearing this immeadiately after the Dutton cd,the Naxos sounds quite 'thin' by comparison. Is this just my ears? (Or my cd changer....no,DON't tell me that. I'll have to lug it to the post office!).
The changer,need I add,is set to 'repeat ALL'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2011, 10:48:09 AM
My ears have adjusted to the Naxos. It sounds fine now. The Dutton of course is a much more recent recording. (But I'm sure the emi recordings had better sound?)
Not that I'm,erm,complaining!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 24, 2011, 02:50:06 PM
Can I put in a good word for Nos. 13 and 14?

I have had an ongoing argument/mild difference of opinion( ;D) with Malcolm MacDonald for over thirty years about these two symphonies, in particular No.14. When he wrote Vol. II of his study of the symphonies he rated them substantially below others in the canon. The fourteenth he described as "on the whole a laboured piece that relies far too much on gesture than on substance(either of material or symphonic argument)...". (I believe that he may have somewhat modified that view over time :))

Well..ok the criticism may be valid but I am a self-confessed sucker for the 'grand gesture' and a bit of orchestral bombast is just fine by me ;D

Referring to the earlier discussion of coupling Brian with other composers' music I was puzzled by the decision of Dutton to couple the Cello Concerto with the two pieces by York Bowen and Alan Bush. Actually the Bush Concert Suite turned out to be a fine and impressive work but the Bowen Rhapsody was a strange choice imo. Surely it would have made more sense to have got Wallfisch to do the Simpson Cello Concerto as a coupling. That work is dedicated to Wallfisch but has never been recorded. Simpson, of course, was the man who virtually single-handed championed Brian's cause in the 50s and 60s at the BBC.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2011, 03:00:09 PM
I must say - it won't surprise you -  I liked the Bowen very much. Ravishing piece. I didn't care much for the Bush! Will wonders never cease?  ;D


But I am in complete agreement, as you know, with your assessment of No. 14, one of last ample and grand of Brian's symphonies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on July 24, 2011, 03:05:34 PM
I like the eclectic programme of that cello concerto disc, perhaps they were looking to reel in multiple fanbases? However, I do find it strange that the Simpson concerto remains unrecorded, considering a) most of his output has been covered, b) Wallfisch is a serial performer and recorder as it is.

Still, something to look forward to... eventually :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 24, 2011, 03:08:08 PM
I believe that there MAY be a possibility of the Simpson being recorded in the relatively near future....and coupled with some Brian too :)

Johan...don't get me started about York Bowen ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 25, 2011, 03:27:58 AM
Johan's latest Brisbane downloads are stupendous. He called the whole thing a miracle and I can't disagree. What qualities has it got going for it? Enthusiasm, dedication, commitment, excellent sound quality, clarity of execution a sense of occasion plus a good overall structural feel to it. Very listenable indeed. Music is so strange - I enjoy Schmidt because the LSO just sails through it as one would expect. I enjoy Brisbane for entirely different reasons. That's because there is a sense of being stretched - there are no major clangers ( a few brass fluffs apart) but the orchestral playing, as good as it is, has minor incidents along the way, some clumsy gear changes and the feeling that many of the players are clinging on for dear life. It's this sense of danger that I enjoy about it. A bit like watching a tightrope walker over a shark tank. Similar in many ways to Loughran vs Brabbins in symphony 10. Brabbins is clearly superior but Loughran has a special feel to it. Sometimes orchestral playing can be too polished at the expense of being spontaneous. The Brisbane Gothic sounds very spontaneous indeed. I urge everyone to take a listen.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 25, 2011, 03:45:20 AM
Glad you like it, John. Yes, I think the whole performance is the most persuasive so far. It's a real roller coaster.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 25, 2011, 04:31:23 AM
Despite my very slight misgivings with regards to the Brisbane orchestra, I'm making comparisons with the LSO. I hope I didn't give the impression that the playing is bad. It certainly isn't. It's very, very good!!!! Had I bought this CD set for 15 quid I would be very satisfied.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 25, 2011, 05:18:44 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 25, 2011, 03:45:20 AM
Glad you like it, John. Yes, I think the whole performance is the most persuasive so far. It's a real roller coaster.

So you put Brisbane above Brabbins and Schmidt?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 25, 2011, 05:33:29 AM
Guido, I compare Brabbins and Curro in the quoted post below... All in all, I think they are even. Both have their (im)perfections. And both are needed for our understanding. I must admit, though, that I find the loss of pitch by the choir in the Judex very distressing (it struck me in the hall, too), and I notice I avoid listening to this movement because of it... Also, I have my problems with the tempi Brabbins chooses for the orchestral interludes. So, sensational as it may sound (and in spite of the opening of the Judex being rather terrible), I prefer the Curro at the moment. Especially when you listen to the better recording, the results he got are simply amazing.  As for the Schmidt, I find him a bit matter-of-fact. Curro and Brabbins have a far greater understanding of Brian's idiom.


Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 22, 2011, 01:03:45 PM

I have been listening to the Brabbins Gothic several times the past few days. And I must say that, overall, Curro's Gothic can really hold its own, which makes 'Brisbane' even more of a miracle than it already was. The 'Curse' of The Gothic?! More of a blessing, I should say.


I think Curro and Brabbins are equally good in Part 1. Curro is faster in the Lento, which lessens the grandeur of its climax somewhat. Though I have been thinking that could have been intentional, Curro wanting to save everything for the tremendous conclusion of the Vivace. Brabbins takes the Lento more slowly, he is akin to Boult in this, though with the latter you get a better sense of sheer weight. The drawback of the close miking in the Brabbins is that the music is very often in close-up, where you'd sometimes prefer a total shot = a better aural perspective. The triumphal march that crowns the Vivace has more swagger in Curro, Brabbins is too fast in my opinion.


As for part 2 - there the two are about even, too, though I prefer Curro in the Judex. His chorus may begin by having lost its way, recovery is quick, and I find Curro's shaping of the movement more exciting than Brabbins', who takes the first interlude a tad too slow and in the second interlude, which should have a brisker pace overall, suddenly accelerates halfway through. Also, the choir in the Brabbins Gothic gets into real trouble navigating the fiendish harmonies and is only saved by the soprano. But the soloists of the Brabbins Gothic are better than Curro's. And the way Brabbins shapes the final movement is impeccable. His 'In te, Domine, speravi' is the most moving account ever. As for the concluding cataclysm, when I listen to my sister's film, the sound is better than in the radio recording! I really hope the sound will be further improved if a CD is made of this. I find the Brisbane Gothic stronger in this particular passage.


All in all, both readings are equally good, I think. And both deserve to be put on CD, though neither is perfect. The 'definitive' Gothic is yet to come...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 25, 2011, 05:42:00 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 25, 2011, 05:33:29 AM
Guido, I compare Brabbins and Curro in the quoted post below... All in all, I think they are even. Both have their (im)perfections. And both are needed for our understanding. I must admit, though, that I find the loss of pitch by the choir in the Judex very distressing (it struck me in the hall, too), and I notice I avoid listening to this movement because of it... Also, I have my problems with the tempi Brabbins chooses for the orchestral interludes. So, sensational as it may sound (and in spite of the opening of the Judex being rather terrible), I prefer the Curro at the moment. Especially when you listen to the better recording, the results he got are simply amazing.  As for the Schmidt, I find him a bit matter-of-fact. Curro and Brabbins have a far greater understanding of Brian's idiom.

I don't/didn't mind the loss of pitch in the Brabbins Judex per se. After all, if pitch loss happens gradually the listener only really notices at the second of transition back to pitch, and that's not too awful. It happens in the Lenard, when the trumpet comes in we have a moment of recalibration, and theit's fine - in fact, it just goes to highlight that the passage is bloody hard and was sung properly; rather as John was saying with regard to the various orchestras, sometimes it is good to hear how hard the music is! No, what I minded in the Brabbins was the organ attempt to keep pitch which a) was obtrusive; b) failed; and c) because it was obtruvie and failed, created some ugly moments. A shame they decided to do that, I think, and the only reason for doing so that I can think of is not so much to avoid pitch slippage but to avoid pitch slippage that is so far that those cavernously deep basses become unsingable.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 25, 2011, 05:43:40 AM
Quote from: Guido on July 25, 2011, 05:18:44 AM
So you put Brisbane above Brabbins and Schmidt?

No I don't. It's very exciting and a good memento of a super live performance but for repeated listening it has too many less assured moments. Schmidt and Brabbins just happen to have superior pro orchestras and it shows. I will return to John Curro's version and still enjoy it though. It's a treat sonically.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 25, 2011, 05:48:57 AM
Quote from: Luke on July 25, 2011, 05:42:00 AM
I don't/didn't mind the loss of pitch in the Brabbins Judex per se. After all, if pitch loss happens gradually the listener only really notices at the second of transition back to pitch, and that's not too awful. It happens in the Lenard, when the trumpet comes in we have a moment of recalibration, and theit's fine - in fact, it just goes to highlight that the passage is bloody hard and was sung properly; rather as John was saying with regard to the various orchestras, sometimes it is good to hear how hard the music is! No, what I minded in the Brabbins was the organ attempt to keep pitch which a) was obtrusive; b) failed; and c) because it was obtruvie and failed, created some ugly moments. A shame they decided to do that, I think, and the only reason for doing so that I can think of is not so much to avoid pitch slippage but to avoid pitch slippage that is so far that those cavernously deep basses become unsingable.


That last point is very interesting, hadn't realised that... When I was in the hall, I was thinking how perfectly everything went... at exactly that moment the organ entered to support the choir, creating an excrucating dissonance which Brian for once didn't happen to have written...  ;) I hope engineers will be able to remove it if a CD is made, because the 're-calibration' by the soprano later on is far less jarring/nerve-wracking.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 25, 2011, 05:53:32 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on July 25, 2011, 05:43:40 AM
No I don't. It's very exciting and a good memento of a super live performance but for repeated listening it has too many less assured moments. Schmidt and Brabbins just happen to have superior pro orchestras and it shows. I will return to John Curro's version and still enjoy it though. It's a treat sonically.


In the Brisbane orchestra there are many pros, too. Musicians from all over Australia and even farther afield gathered especially to play 'The Gothic'. For free. Many of them were pupils of conductor John Curro and now play in professional orchestras all over Asia.


It appears I'm on the side of the Australian LSSO, John!


P.S. The nice thing of being able to compare performances is - you get an inkling of what the ideal performance would be. If a conductor can combine the fire of John Curro and the laser precision of Martyn Brabbins (who both possess the sense of steady progression that Sir Adrian Boult has, too), we'll have a 'Gothic' for the ages...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 25, 2011, 06:27:28 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 25, 2011, 05:53:32 AM

In the Brisbane orchestra there are many pros, too. Musicians from all over Australia and even farther afield gathered especially to play 'The Gothic'. For free. Many of them were pupils of conductor John Curro and now play in professional orchestras all over Asia.


It appears I'm on the side of the Australian LSSO, John!


P.S. The nice thing of being able to compare performances is - you get an inkling of what the ideal performance would be. If a conductor can combine the fire of John Curro and the laser precision of Martyn Brabbins (who both possess the sense of steady progression that Sir Adrian Boult has, too), we'll have a 'Gothic' for the ages...

I'm on the side of the Aussie LSSO too Johan (good description!). They played really well and I accept that there were many fine pros taking part but listening objectively it simply doesn't compare with a world class orchestra such as the LSO does it? Seriously?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 25, 2011, 06:34:29 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on July 25, 2011, 06:27:28 AM
I'm on the side of the Aussie LSSO too Johan (good description!). They played really well and I accept that there were many fine pros taking part but listening objectively it simply doesn't compare with a world class orchestra such as the LSO does it? Seriously?


It's a bit difficult to compare the two, for the simple fact that the LSO is a band with a tradition and the 'Gothic Symphony Orchestra' an ensemble with neither past nor future, and only that one unique moment to be one. Considering that, Curro got much more than he perhaps expected. But technically, yes, the LSO are more polished. But as I find Curro more attuned to Brian, I prefer him to Schmidt.


I can't wait to see 'The Curse of The Gothic'!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on July 25, 2011, 10:07:33 AM
I have to say that if there ever was a recording made (highly unlikely) in which the choir kept perfect pitch throughout the long a capella sections with every single strand of the intricate choral polyphony brought out in glorious well-differentiated technicolour, I would be  frankly depressed and really rather bored.

Surely the Gothic is all about striving after the unattainable. It is truly wonderful to hear up to 800 individuals straining every sinew to simply attempt a communication of Brian's visionary writing: I have absolutely no problems with the Brabbins performance or indeed any other in which there is a sag in pitch - what is important is unanimity of attack (indicating a unanimity of experience), which is what this 2011 performance (and the Schmidt, come to that) had in spades!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 25, 2011, 10:34:50 AM
I take your point (and Luke's). In the Lenard, where they could have done re-takes, the choir sag in pitch, too. And I could and can live with that. But the Judex movement is central to the work as a whole (and central to my appreciation and enjoyment of it). It should have an iron, crushing inexorability, and for me, alas, that effect is a bit spoiled, not only by the choral hiccups, but also by the organ, making things worse by trying to do good (as Luke says). The tempo, too, is too slow, though the final apocalypse is thrilling... With the Te Deum laudamus and the Te ergo quaesumus I have no quarrel at all.

It seems the contrasting and comparing has started in earnest. Which is all to the good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 25, 2011, 10:41:07 AM
Question for those who have the score of 'The Gothic' - in the bar (C major) before the climactic F# major chord in the Vivace I can hear the bass drum and long African drum (?) pounding away in the Brabbins, but not in the Curro... What did Brian write?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 25, 2011, 10:55:12 AM
I have the misprint-ridden Crantz score, so the instrument names are chopped off to the left on this page!. Nevertheless it is clear what Brian wants. The percussion section here reads :

-Drum (which is clearly the side drum part)

  I
-Drums (this is the line you are talking about, so here you should be hearing two bass drums in alternation)
  II

Cymb.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 25, 2011, 10:56:34 AM
Then Brabbins is right. It's a wonderfully thunderous sound!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on July 25, 2011, 10:59:06 AM
But I did notice that one of the bass drums was less audible than the other last week - there were those sudden thwacks at the beginning of the Vivace which also went missing rather, and at the point you mention we really only hear drum I prominently. I actually quite like this as it emphasizes the triplet cross rhythm - more strongly than Brian wanted, perhaps, but at least it is truly audible here. All of a sudden we hear what are to all intents an purposes triplet crotchets in the 3/4 context, and it's a big shock!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 25, 2011, 11:08:46 AM
It sounds as if something is banging on the door to be let in: the F# chord...


UMP have re-issued the score of 'The Gothic', by the way, in two volumes. I wish we could have a critical edition, but I think I'll be dead before that happens...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 26, 2011, 12:23:42 AM
It seems astonishing to me that we now have five excellent performances of the Gothic to muse over and reflect upon. (And there is also the half performance of Sir Charles Groves' Part One from the year of the Brian centenary, and rumoured Fairfax `61/Stokes `78 bootlegs.) I agree that none of the performances can be held to represent the definitive interpretation of the work, not least because each recording has its own strengths as well as flaws. On a technical note, I believe the higher-quality Brisbane recording doesn't suffer from the channel reversal that the 4MBS internet stream did, so this is a most welcome improvement on the very limited sound of the earlier recording.

In short this is an incredible development from the long days of no recordings at all (except for Aries' pirate LPs of the Boult `66), up until the eventual CD release of Lenárd's `89 studio recording on Marco Polo in about 1991, and then only in the last year or so the properly re-mastered Testament release of the Boult. I hope the Schmidt `80 recording sees its way to perhaps the LSO Live series of discs – the finesse of the orchestral playing is exactly what one would expect from a professional orchestra of this calibre. (I haven't had enough time to fully absorb this reading.)

I spoke to Gary Thorpe a fair deal on the weekend and it's perhaps too early to speculate about a CD (or possibly DVD-video/audio) release of the Brisbane Gothic. For one thing, the publishers/rights managers are unimaginative and unsupportive to such a degree that there would be an unhelpfully large cost barrier to entering the marketplace with a new CD recording. That is a great pity because Curro's `10 performance is in places a white-hot reading of the work from conductor, players, and singers alike, and it has been very well captured on disc. Incidentally, almost all of the stock music used in the documentary "Curse of the Gothic" come from the Brisbane performance, and it comes across marvellously on the big screen as "film music" even when subjected to death by a thousand cuts (there are a few other works heard also: Elgar's King Olaf in an idealised re-creation of Brian's 1896 hearing of the work, which was a powerful spur to Brian's choosing composition as a career; and the QYO are shown rehearsing some Shostakovich).

As for that curious antiphonal bass-drum writing at the end of the Vivace which emphasises the triplets (which of course is what you hear in the timpani immediately afterwards, before the other timpanist returns to the duplet pattern in D minor from the start of the movement), there's something sort of similar in the Tuba mirum of the Berlioz Requiem, where Hector explicitly states the bass drum is to be struck on alternating sides in sextuplet rhythm (in a slightly slower tempo), with the sequence of up and down stems indicating the technique for the players, but very few recordings seem to bring this out. Brian of course has two bass drums to play with, so the two players should be attempting to match the sound of their drums in those two bars before the chord of F# crashes in: they are there in the Brisbane recording, but only faintly. They cannot be heard at all in either the Boult `66 or the Lenárd `89 versions. With Brabbins `11 only one of the two drums can be heard, and the other seems to be swallowed up in the general sound rather than actually punching at its own weight. Only in the Schmidt `80 can you clearly hear both bass drums for those couple of bars — and no, I don't have Groves `76 to compare!

As for a score, if I were living in Canada I'd be tempted to put one up on IMSLP.org on the 1st of January 2023. Since Australia signed a ridiculous free trade agreement with the US that put works entering the public domain on the back-burner for two whole decades, add another 20 years to that date. (Providing I haven't dropped off the twig in the mean time of course.) A critical edition would be nice, but just one with a darn sight fewer errors would be nice too! The long drum and the thunder machine never appear in the course of the full score, but the latter instrument is assumed to be played in combination with the "Scare Crow", as the Bird Scare is termed on page 184 (last page of Judex). Having heard Brian's 4th English Suite, which has a curious movement described as an Ashanti marching song, I'm personally convinced that the former instrument should be heard along with the nine clarinets, cymbal, side drum and bass drum on each of the two occasions that they go a-marching.

Cheers, Philip
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 05:49:03 AM
The 1980 Schmidt in the LSO Live Series. What a marvellous idea! Everyone should write to/email them.
Hadn't heard of the Fairfax bootlegs. Wonder what the sound quality is like? Not exactly hi-fi I fear!!!! But having listened to allot of old acoustic & electrical recordings from the early years of the last century & some pretty terrible recordings,in pursuit of neglected composers I like,I think I could just about cope?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on July 26, 2011, 05:52:13 AM
Nota bene: all this recent Havergal talk has brought the thread to page 96 - a significant number in the mythology ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 26, 2011, 06:03:41 AM
The thread has exploded since last week's concert. Brian is now 9 pages behind Mahler (and 9 light years behind in reputation)... I hope this thread won't die before it reaches page 97!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 06:10:55 AM
I will tempt fate to say,'I doubt it'!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 06:18:32 AM
'An Ashanti marching song'?!!!
Brian ever full of suprises.
Actually,'Ashanti Battle song',to be accurate. Looking at the article on the HBS site. The 'English Suite No 4',sounds allot more more interesting than (no offence to children!) it's 'Kindergarten' subtitle might suggest. But alas,no commercial recording!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 26, 2011, 06:23:33 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 06:18:32 AM
'An Ashanti marching song'?!!!
Brian ever full of suprises.


I know about that. I remember the Fourth English Suite was once recorded by an amateur orchestra (the George Heriot's School Orchestra, I think). Never heard it... O, I found this on the HBS site:


English suite 4 »Kindergarten«
?1924

2 flutes (2 also picc), 2 oboes (1 also cor anglais), 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, 4 horns, 3 trumpets, 3 trombones, tuba, timpani, cymbals, bass drum, side drum, long narrow Indian drum, glockenspiel, celesta, harp, strings

1  Thank you
2  Where is he?
3  Something or nothing
4  The man with a gun
5  Jingle
6  The lame duck
7  Gentle bunny
8  Death of bunny
9  Ashanti battle song

(14´)



Performances

5 July 1977 [first performance] . George Heriot's School, Edinburgh
George Heriot's School First Orchestra, conductor Martin Rutherford

17-24 July 1977 [Ashanti battle song only]. Spanish tour:  Lloret de Mar, Montserrat, Barcelona, Girona and Sitges
George Heriot's School First Orchestra, conductor Martin Rutherford

27 March 2001 . Melbourne Grammar School, Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne Grammar School SO, conductor Martin Rutherford

Article by Malcolm MacDonald: 

http://www.havergalbrian.org/engsuite4_1.htm (http://www.havergalbrian.org/engsuite4_1.htm)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 06:34:39 AM
A limited release or subscription issue? That Lp would be a nice find for a Brian collector.
And they got to play it in Spain.
The Australians have done that one too!!! Hopefully,we'll get to hear it as well! Brian's 'lesser' (?) works are always well worth hearing,aren't they? Another part of the 'jigsaw',even if it's not one of the most important pieces,I suppose.
Thanks for the handy link.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 06:51:25 AM
I'm ashamed to say I have only just ordered the Toccata orchestral Works (Vol 1) now. For certain reasons,eg allot of additional and less intriguing purchases,(anyone want to discuss freezers?) I had resisted. Listening to the Dutton cd on my 'retro-tech' cd changer was the last straw. I HAD to order! Anyway,according to HMV,it's in stock & shipping is 'in 24 hrs'). Hope I won't be disappointed?!!!
I will roll back in time now & have another look at some of the posts about this disc.

Have to say,I DO love my new freezer though!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 26, 2011, 07:02:06 AM
For me the best things, in terms of playing, are 'Ave Atque Vale' and the Burlesque Variations. 'Elegy' is a wonderful piece, but I disagree with the tempo the conductor has chosen. The same applies to 'Reverie' in the Fifth English Suite. Still, I am glad to have this disc!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 07:06:24 AM
I hate it to say it,Johan. But you're reservations about the performance of the English suite No 5 & some of the comments about the recording level,didn't help.
I shouldn't be so easily put off though,should I !
Okay,the 'posting thingummy' did warn me,so treat this as a reply.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 07:17:00 AM
So you reckon I'll be better off with the earlier recording.
Regarding,the recording level. I hope to goodness it's not like the Hyperion?Helios cd of Holst's 'Choral Symphony'. A case in point. Either it was too quiet or too loud.All I seemed to do was fiddle around with the volume control. I wasn't half relieved when emi finally reissued the Boult recording (which is better anyway).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 26, 2011, 07:23:11 AM
Simply see and listen for yourself. It's still an essential CD. Brianites aren't as spoiled for choice as Mahlerians.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 07:33:26 AM
Nick Barnard's review on Musicweb refers to the percussion having a 'field day' in the 'Legend'.
I'm definately looking forward to this now!
The Janacek cd's are fine & the case/booklet (they'll get 5 stars!) so,for the time being, I'll dig out the Hull Youth of the 'Burlesque' variations & bung them on as soon as I can.
CURRENT HMV STATUS: Available & awaiting shipment.....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 08:29:06 AM
The Plus side. I'll have a new Brian cd to listen to!
Downside:      For a true 'Brianite' (sounds like a rock formation!) I'm WAY behind!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on July 26, 2011, 08:49:09 AM
Hi Johan & cilgwyn,
I have the 4th English Suite in mp3 format. 
Here it is:  http://www.4shared.com/audio/jgx3ayM1/Brian_English_suite_No_4.html
The sound is not too bad considering the surface noise.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 26, 2011, 09:02:43 AM
What do you think?... Yes! I'd love to hear it. Which performance?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 09:06:44 AM
Thankyou. We certainly would!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 26, 2011, 09:09:05 AM
I'll upload for the Commonwealth of Brianites.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on July 26, 2011, 09:34:46 AM
Jolly Good.
I've modified my last post and put the suite up there, just as you were replying :-[.
I'll have to find the LP for the other info, I'll post it up later.
It's amateur but listenable or I've got used to it.
James Heriot School rings a bell.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 26, 2011, 09:38:18 AM
Excellent!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on July 26, 2011, 10:00:40 AM
It was easier to look it up on the HB society site.
5 July 1977 [at the first performance] (except Jingle rec at earlier session) . George Heriot's School, Edinburgh 
George Heriot's School First Orchestra, conductor Martin Rutherford

James Heriot, didn't he write the vet books?

I kept very few LPs but held on to the Brians, thankfully.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 26, 2011, 10:05:30 AM
Listening as I write - this really adds to my knowledge of Brian. There are some wonderfully delicate things here. Playing and sound are, of course, far from perfect. Still, as a hardcore Brianite, I can listen through the imperfections...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 10:06:05 AM
'All composers great and small'? That was a tv series,wasn't it!
If you're into Brian you tend to develop a 'special ear' for school orchestra's.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 26, 2011, 10:08:21 AM
Yes. 'All Things Brian and Beautiful'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 10:09:36 AM
The good Havergal made them all.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 10:10:43 AM
This is great. Hats off to Hattoff!
Sounds pretty good to me. The faint 'clicks' add a nice bit of Lp ambience.
(The only Brian Lp I have left is the one of his songs).

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 26, 2011, 10:37:59 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on July 26, 2011, 08:49:09 AM
Hi Johan & cilgwyn,
I have the 4th English Suite in mp3 format. 
Here it is:  http://www.4shared.com/audio/jgx3ayM1/Brian_English_suite_No_4.html
The sound is not too bad considering the surface noise.

Who's playing this?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 26, 2011, 10:40:38 AM
5 July 1977 [first performance] . George Heriot's School, Edinburgh
George Heriot's School First Orchestra, conductor Martin Rutherford



No match for the LSSO, of course...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 11:26:24 AM
Well I got to hear the Ashanti Battle song!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on July 26, 2011, 11:33:13 AM
It would, obviously, sound better under a professional orchestra.
I have a great fondness for the English Suites, it's a pity No2  went awol :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 26, 2011, 11:48:16 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on July 26, 2011, 11:33:13 AM
It would sound a lot better under Martin Brabbins :)
I have a great fondness for the English Suites, it's a pity No2  went awol :(


Yes, that's a great pity...


I wonder - did you download the new, improved mp3s of the Brisbane Gothic? They're terrific.


http://www.mediafire.com/?km7z6cl54mpyv

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on July 26, 2011, 12:35:30 PM
Thanks Johan,
I downloaded the original and was much impressed by that. I'll give this one an hearing later.
Listening to the Prologue to Faust at this very moment.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 01:24:43 PM
And I'm on the Hull Youth SO 'Festal Dance' (more fun than the Naxos). There seems to be an organ at full throttle at the end of the Hull Youth SO 'Burlesque' Variations? (that's the trouble with cd changers when you're doing things).Anyway,the sound was amazing. Thrilling stuff!
The Ashanti Battle Song will be something under Brabbins!
And yes,If ONLY someone could turn up No 2.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 26, 2011, 01:40:19 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 26, 2011, 01:24:43 PM
And I'm on the Hull Youth SO 'Festal Dance' (more fun than the Naxos). There seems to be an organ at full throttle at the end of the Hull Youth SO 'Burlesque' Variations? (that's the trouble with cd changers when you're doing things).Anyway,the sound was amazing. Thrilling stuff!
The Ashanti Battle Song will be something under Brabbins!
And yes,If ONLY someone could turn up No 2.

I've never heard these Hull recordings. Any chance of a file share in high quality mp3s?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 26, 2011, 10:55:09 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 26, 2011, 10:40:38 AM
5 July 1977 [first performance] . George Heriot's School, Edinburgh
George Heriot's School First Orchestra, conductor Martin Rutherford



No match for the LSSO, of course...

What label was this released on and what else does the LP contain? I've never come across it before. Decent music. Playing very basic but it's a small school orchestra having a go so well done to them for trying. I am biased but also think that the LSSO is a bit better, Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on July 26, 2011, 11:21:49 PM
I had to get it out of its dusty box after all.

It's a private recording made by Ronald Stephen for the George Heriot school and has no label beyond saying that it was made in Scotland.
Side one is a narration of the history of the school orchestra 1967-1977 with many clips (too many to list).
Side two has the HB English suite.
Then, Delius on hearing the first cuckoo of spring and Malcolm Arnold's A Grand , Grand Overture (which is a hoot :D).

I don't have record deck so can't copy and upload any of the rest.

As you are interested in school orchestras, I also have Holst's, "A Vision of Dame Christian" performed by St Paul's girls school orchestra and choir but sadly it is very badly performed and i didn't convert it to mp3 when I should have.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on July 26, 2011, 11:44:18 PM
From the HBS website, an 'official' response to the Prom concert on 17th July -

Many reviews have appeared in the press regarding the performance of the Gothic on Sunday 17th July. [...] That the audience and the critics differed so wildly in their response to Brian's great 'war symphony' (or should that be 'Great War symphony?) is indisputable, but it was doubtless the quality of the music allied to the quality of the performance that enthralled and inflamed the audience. Tightly controlled by Martyn Brabbins, the massed forces gave a brilliantly coherent performance. Settling down after a slightly-out-of-tune woodwind start, the huge orchestra played with fire and delicacy, ably supported where necessary by David Goode at the Royal Albert Hall organ. At the climax of the vivace third movement, the eight-hundred choristers stood for their first entry, to barely-held gasps from many of the audience, such was the effect. Brian's cruelly-exposed writing for the a cappella choirs occasionally resulted in flagging pitch, but there has not been a performance that has [not] suffered from this. Ultimately the power and commitment of the massed voices combined with the clarity of the orchestral textures in a tour-de-force that was guided by Maestro Brabbins to the final magical choral peroration of 'non confundar in aeternum', said by one press critic to be in his opinion the most arresting symphonic conclusion in twentieth century music. The audience agreed.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 12:25:42 AM
Thanks for that, Albion! I think the audience reaction has been very important (also on forums, on Twitter and in comments on blog posts). It shows there are people really liking Brian's music, which could lead to more concerts and/or recordings. This performance of 'The Gothic' could be the definitive step towards recognition of Brian's importance. Critical mass seems to have been reached (though still not in the mass of critics!)


Here, now, is a link to a review which compares all the performances of 'The Gothic' now available (to the enthusiast) from the perspective of recording quality. It is long, but it makes for interesting reading...


https://sites.google.com/site/recordingmaninoz/gothicreview (https://sites.google.com/site/recordingmaninoz/gothicreview)


I now see that the HBS links to a 'review' of the critics by our own Brian (Reinhart) on musicweb!


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/July11/Brian_critics.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/July11/Brian_critics.htm)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 27, 2011, 02:42:16 AM
On iPhone, thus this is only a missive brevis!

My memory failed me: glad to see the discussion of the Ashanti battle song has developed into an appreciation of English Suite 4. Martin Rutherford now lives in Melbourne conducting the Melbourne Grammar School Orchestra — which is how I came to hear it. (I think he and I are the only 2 HBS members in the city.)

The woodwind tuning mentioned on the HBS website (initially E flat clarinet very shrieky early as bar 9) was bad on the low-quality Radio 3 stream, and much better/less obtrusive on the high-bandwidth stream. What was it like in the hall?

Cheers, P.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 02:48:24 AM
I hope Luke can answer that. I arrived at the Royal Albert Hall around twenty seconds before Martyn Brabbins started conducting, and was too stressed at first to notice anything...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 03:37:36 AM
       http://www.mediafire.com/#gwsteel843vw,1 (http://www.mediafire.com/#gwsteel843vw,1)


  Hull Youth SO Recordings
  Not as savvy as Johan! Does it work?!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 03:43:21 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 03:37:36 AM
       http://www.mediafire.com/#gwsteel843vw,1 (http://www.mediafire.com/#gwsteel843vw,1)


  Hull Youth SO Recordings
  Not as savvy as Johan! Does it work?!!!!!!


No. I think you got the link wrong. If you have a folder, you go to the right hand side. The word 'Share' appears. You click on that, and you see Share URL. Click on Copy Link. And paste it here.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 03:53:38 AM
        http://www.mediafire.com/#0,1 (http://www.mediafire.com/#0,1)

That's funny.It takes me there? What about this one?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 03:55:41 AM
Oh dear,oh dear,oh dear!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 03:56:54 AM
Doesn't work either... It takes me to my own Mediafire account. What did you upload?


Here, for instance, is the link for Elegy with File name:


http://www.mediafire.com/file/qazb7dn9czyd3ky/Brian%20-%20Elegy.mp3 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/qazb7dn9czyd3ky/Brian%20-%20Elegy.mp3)


And here without:


http://www.mediafire.com/?qazb7dn9czyd3ky (http://www.mediafire.com/?qazb7dn9czyd3ky)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 04:18:10 AM
One last try:

     http://www.mediafire.com/?673pyqddwa9ztp4 (http://www.mediafire.com/?673pyqddwa9ztp4)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 04:20:36 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 04:18:10 AM
One last try:

     http://www.mediafire.com/?673pyqddwa9ztp4 (http://www.mediafire.com/?673pyqddwa9ztp4)


Bingo! It's the First English Suite.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 04:24:47 AM
Thank god almighty & thank you,Johan. I think I was on the verge of collapse!
Do you know why I can't link to the entire folder?
Actually,I think you told me!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 04:28:48 AM
That'll be enough for now,mind. I HAVE actually created a working link!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 04:29:47 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 04:24:47 AM
Thank god almighty & thank you,Johan. I think I was on the verge of collapse!
Do you know why I can't link to the entire folder?
Actually,I think you told me!!!!


It's the same principle. Go one level up, to the folder as a whole. The same procedure applies. But you may rest first!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 04:31:32 AM
The paramedics are here!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 04:36:15 AM
This is the link to your folder:


http://www.mediafire.com/?gwsteelf843vw# (http://www.mediafire.com/?gwsteelf843vw#)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 04:39:56 AM
Like this?

    http://www.mediafire.com/?gwsteelf843vw# (http://www.mediafire.com/?gwsteelf843vw#)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 04:40:57 AM
Exactly!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 04:53:32 AM
Thank you again. Something to eat now & a cup of tea should help.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 04:55:01 AM
I will look at you're previous posts and review links when I come back.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 27, 2011, 05:04:58 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 02:48:24 AM
I hope Luke can answer that. I arrived at the Royal Albert Hall around twenty seconds before Martyn Brabbins started conducting, and was too stressed at first to notice anything...

Oh..I think it was nearer to 15 seconds, Johan ;D

As the person sitting next to your empty seat for about twenty minutes I was checking my watch and counting down ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 05:10:12 AM
I am sorry for any distress I (and the Tube) may have caused you...  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 27, 2011, 05:12:40 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 05:10:12 AM
I am sorry for any distress I (and the Tube) may have caused you...  ;D

I am sure the stress you must have been under was immeasurably greater than mine :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on July 27, 2011, 07:31:43 AM
Speaking as a person who has never heard a note of anything Brian wrote,  I'd like to know if there's a particular work or works I'm better off using as an entrance to his music; and if so, any particular performance that's generally available and not a download (I'm on dial up, so it's just no feasible to download performances.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 07:39:31 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 27, 2011, 07:31:43 AM
Speaking as a person who has never heard a note of anything Brian wrote,  I'd like to know if there's a particular work or works I'm better off using as an entrance to his music; and if so, any particular performance that's generally available and not a download (I'm on dial up, so it's just no feasible to download performances.)


Hello, Jeffrey! I'd suggest two CDs because they are readily available:


On Lyrita, Symphonies 6 & 16 - one of the most approachable of Brian symphonies coupled with one of the most cogent and severe. Performance and recording are both top-drawer.


On Dutton, Symphonies 10 & 31, Concerto for Orchestra and English Suite No. 3 - one of the best Brian CDs, spanning 40 years. No. 10 is dramatic, No. 30 a true successor to No. 16. The Concerto for Orchestra is an excellent introduction to Brian's (very) late style. And the English Suite No. 3 is a wonderfully varied and 'light' (more or less) work from the 1920s, when Brian was busy on the 'Gothic'.


If you could get the EMI two-fer (OOP) with Nos. 7-9 & 31, too, you would have a representative collection of Brian's works.


--Johan
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on July 27, 2011, 07:42:31 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 27, 2011, 07:31:43 AM
Speaking as a person who has never heard a note of anything Brian wrote,  I'd like to know if there's a particular work or works I'm better off using as an entrance to his music; and if so, any particular performance that's generally available and not a download (I'm on dial up, so it's just no feasible to download performances.)

If you can stretch to it, I would suggest two discs initially -

Symphonies 6 and 16 (coupled with Arnold Cooke's Symphony 3) on Lyrita (SRCD295)
Symphonies 10 and 30, Concerto for Orchestra and English Suite No.3 on Dutton (CDLX7267)

None of the symphonies here are very long, but each is full of variety and gives a great introduction to Brian's musical world. Also, these are amongst the best performances that there have been of any of his scores.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 07:44:01 AM
Ha! Great minds...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on July 27, 2011, 07:48:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 26, 2011, 11:48:16 AM

did you download the new, improved mp3s of the Brisbane Gothic? They're terrific.


I'm puzzled now because the first ones I downloaded, shortly after they were originally posted, have a sample rate of 320k, whereas these new ones seem to be 128.  I haven't listened, but are they really better?

And sorry not to see anyone after the Prom - I took a look at the queue at the Queen's Arms, where there appeared to be one person serving, and thought a 2-hour Gothic was enough, without a 2-hour wait for a pint.  And had to keep myself fresh for a visit to Legoland the next day  :) - although I feel that as well as a Lego St Paul's and Houses of Parliament it needs a Lego Albert Hall - perhaps with 800 Lego choristers singing their heads off inside...

DF
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on July 27, 2011, 07:49:11 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 07:44:01 AM
Ha! Great minds...

Or telepathy! We must have been posting virtually simultaneously.

Jeffrey - seriously, go ahead and buy both discs. After a couple of hearings, you'll know whether or not Brian is the man for you - if he is, there's plenty more to explore!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 07:52:53 AM
@Dave They should be 256kbps... Strange! And yes, they are really better.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 07:55:16 AM
The emi 'twofer' is marvellous. (I think it sounds better than the Naxos cd's,despite the age of the recordings). It's pricey on Amazon at the moment,but if you hang on and keep on looking it can be found very cheap. I got mine for around £3 in the end.
The cd's can sometimes be found individually,though.
The Lyrita & Dutton are an extremely good place to start. Can't recommend the Naxos cd's though,personally. They are the only Brian recordings I've never liked.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on July 27, 2011, 08:02:37 AM
Speaking as a relatively recent convert, that Lyrita disc of No.6 and 16 really did it for me, along with the 7th on the EMI twofer. As much as I admire the Dutton disc, I find the 10th rather more daunting at the moment.

No.6 is the most ideal entry-point for Brian in that it contains an equal amount of traditional expectations (the central melody) and Brianic curiosity. Unlike the more accessable 7th, it is an early example of Brian in pointalistic mode, where excess is so trimmed back that the work demands multiple listens (often in a row) to take in all of the content, let alone fully assess it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on July 27, 2011, 08:16:13 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 07:52:53 AM
They should be 256kbps... Strange!

No, the only strange thing is my bad memory - 256 it is.  Or perhaps I've turned into one of the characters in the Monty Python "Buying a Bed" sketch who halves every number before he says it:  "And how long is the bed?"  "Three feet long, sir."

DF
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 10:22:13 AM
Oh dear,I was one of that low brow lot watching the Goodies!
Anyone for a game of ecky thump?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 27, 2011, 12:19:15 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 04:18:10 AM
One last try:

     http://www.mediafire.com/?673pyqddwa9ztp4 (http://www.mediafire.com/?673pyqddwa9ztp4)

Thanks very much for this. I've listened to parts of it already. Very interesting stuff. It's spirited enough but a bit rough and ready. The engineers made the right decision to set the orchestra back and avoid close mics. The cavernous sound hides a multitude of sins especially for the really stretched string players. I wish the CBS and Unicorn engineers had done this for the LSSO - we suffered due to the close mics and lack of reverberation which put everyone under the microscope and showed up every single blemish. A bit more bloom and the discs would have sounded less excruciating. Anyway thanks for these Hull recordings. I'd heard about them for years and had no idea what to expect. I like the sound but don't wish to be too crtical about the playing - it's kids having a go at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 12:41:43 PM
Actually,there's more! It's just,I needed a bit of help from Johan! Did you get these?


     Hull Youth Symphony Orchestra Recordings link here:

    http://www.mediafire.com/?gwsteelf843vw# (http://www.mediafire.com/?gwsteelf843vw#)

Scrapy strings or not,I find the Hull Youth SO 'In Memoriam' more moving than the Naxos performance & their 'Festal Dance' allot more fun (it has the zany piano 'ad lib'). I know Johan likes these recordings.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 27, 2011, 01:14:08 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 12:41:43 PM
Actually,there's more! It's just,I needed a bit of help from Johan! Did you get these?


     Hull Youth Symphony Orchestra Recordings link here:

    http://www.mediafire.com/?gwsteelf843vw# (http://www.mediafire.com/?gwsteelf843vw#)

Scrapy strings or not,I find the Hull Youth SO 'In Memoriam' more moving than the Naxos performance & their 'Festal Dance' allot more fun (it has the zany piano 'ad lib'). I know Johan likes these recordings.

Got them all thanks. 2 CDs worth. It really is the string playing that's hard to come to terms with in both tone and intonation but it's still good to have these recordings all the same. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 27, 2011, 01:22:34 PM
Yes, though the strings are hair-raising, I have come to like these performances. I think the climax of the Fantastic Variations, for instance, with its ad lib. organ is spectacular. And the Hull Youth SO have infectious enthusiasm which brings out the irreverence and fun of some of these pieces. I still have to listen to 'In Memoriam' and will do so later.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 01:51:45 PM
Tuck in,as you say!
I must say,I REALLY DO prefer 'In Memoriam' to the Naxos version. It just is so much grander,and much more moving & also tender in the reflective moments. Also,the strings here don't seem to 'scrape' much either & stay in tune (at least most of the time). I find the Naxos version dull in comparison.
The Festal Dance has that piano part,crucial for me,it just adds to the all out wacky fun. Again,by comparison,the Naxos performance seems dull and humourless.
And that organ 'ad lib' is REALLY spectacular. If the Naxos players had their half their sense of fun,sheer gusto and enthusiasm I'm sure I would love their recordings!
The cd's sound very good too.
The string playing can be a bit wierd though!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 27, 2011, 03:25:52 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 27, 2011, 01:51:45 PM
Tuck in,as you say!
I must say,I REALLY DO prefer 'In Memoriam' to the Naxos version. It just is so much grander,and much more moving & also tender in the reflective moments. Also,the strings here don't seem to 'scrape' much either & stay in tune (at least most of the time). I find the Naxos version dull in comparison.
The Festal Dance has that piano part,crucial for me,it just adds to the all out wacky fun. Again,by comparison,the Naxos performance seems dull and humourless.
And that organ 'ad lib' is REALLY spectacular. If the Naxos players had their half their sense of fun,sheer gusto and enthusiasm I'm sure I would love their recordings!
The cd's sound very good too.
The string playing can be a bit wierd though!!!!!!!!!

Yes, In Memorium sounds very good and it's also very musically played. I don't know the piece at all but listening to it for the first time there is nothing technically difficult contained in it. The string writing is straight forward and mostly below the stave (i.e. limited "scrape" potential). In other words the orchestra isn't stretched technically so they can concentrate on musical issues (phrasing, dynamics etc) and they cope very well. I like this a lot.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on July 27, 2011, 04:05:31 PM
Dial up! I didn't know it still existed!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on July 27, 2011, 05:48:54 PM
Quote from: DaveF on July 27, 2011, 07:48:25 AM
I'm puzzled now because the first ones I downloaded, shortly after they were originally posted, have a sample rate of 320k, whereas these new ones seem to be 128.  I haven't listened, but are they really better?

And sorry not to see anyone after the Prom - I took a look at the queue at the Queen's Arms, where there appeared to be one person serving, and thought a 2-hour Gothic was enough, without a 2-hour wait for a pint.  And had to keep myself fresh for a visit to Legoland the next day  :) - although I feel that as well as a Lego St Paul's and Houses of Parliament it needs a Lego Albert Hall - perhaps with 800 Lego choristers singing their heads off inside...

DF

Hi Dave,

these are better, despite the lower bit-depth of 256kbps compared to 320kbps. However they are not the best possible, because they are a stereo rip, and 4MBS recording engineer Mike Le Voi's article makes clear that the Brisbane Gothic would stand being released in the Super Audio CD format with 4.0 or perhaps 5.1 sound channels rather than the usual two. And the Brabbins recording similarly could be treated to a much better mix than what went out live over the airwaves.

Typing on iPhone last night, one thing I omitted was that English suite 4 was composed just before Brian commenced the orchestration of Part Two of the Gothic, and so some of the more unusual instrumentations (the Jingle) might have been trial runs for particular effects in the larger work. The sound of the orchestra on the 1977 LP is not up to the remarkable standards of the LSSO, but something of the work comes across. Unfortunately the African (or Indian?) long drum doesn't sound terribly well. When I heard the MGS Orchestra play through this circa 2004 Martin Rutherford had a pair of congas in addition to bass drum and side drum, which gives a much earthier "world music" sound than the military sounding bass and side drums would have by themselves.

It seems we are on the verge of 2,000 posts, but it's worth noting that 1,600 of these have been written in the last eight months since the subject "warmed up" with the Brisbane Gothic nearing its performance in December 2010. Have a look at about page 24 for the hilarious explosion of glee and excitement when news of the Proms Gothic came out.

Brian, your article on the critics of Havergal Brian is a very intelligently argued and good piece of work – would you have any objection to it being reprinted in the Havergal Brian Society newsletter if I were to point it out to the editor? (I gather he may already be aware of it.)

Cheers, Philip
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 28, 2011, 03:20:39 AM
Regarding the quality of the Hull Youth SO uploads. Not knowing allot about bit rates,etc (yet!) I cannot vouch for the quality of those uploads. The sound of the actual cd's is pretty good. Hopefully,the uploads are good enough. If not,Johan might be able to help.
Meanwhile,I shall swot up on the subject,a bit.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2011, 03:25:44 AM
The bitrate of the HYO's files is 128kbps.


There is an excellent (and free) music player, called foobar2000, with which you can rip your CDs to a great many formats (FLAC, mp3 et cetera). You might take a look at that. It will require a bit of study, though...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 28, 2011, 06:14:47 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 28, 2011, 03:20:39 AM
Regarding the quality of the Hull Youth SO uploads. Not knowing allot about bit rates,etc (yet!) I cannot vouch for the quality of those uploads. The sound of the actual cd's is pretty good. Hopefully,the uploads are good enough. If not,Johan might be able to help.
Meanwhile,I shall swot up on the subject,a bit.
128 kbps is a bit on the low side but I've made CDs from your files and they sound fine through speakers. Very good results. Recording quality is really excellent. I've played the whole set through twice now and to be brutal about it I personally find it hard to enjoy listening to orchestral playing of this standard. There are obviously some good individual players in the band but the corporate sound, especially the strings, isn't very appealing. As a one off live event, OK, but for repeated listening I'm defeated. The whole thing is just too approximate and thin.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 28, 2011, 06:20:06 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on July 28, 2011, 06:14:47 AM
128 kbps is a bit on the low side but I've made CDs from your files and they sound fine through speakers. Very good results. Recording quality is really excellent. I've played the whole set through twice now and to be brutal about it I personally find it hard to enjoy listening to orchestral playing of this standard. There are obviously some good individual players in the band but the corporate sound, especially the strings, isn't very appealing. As a one off live event, OK, but for repeated listening I'm defeated. The whole thing is just too approximate and thin.

PS In Memorium is actually OK (or at least most of it). It's not taxing to play and defeats the orchestra less than the rest.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2011, 06:30:59 AM
In the past 33 years or so I have learned to cope with almost anything for the pleasure of listening to Brian's music - cassettes with monumental hiss, bad performances by professional orchestras, disappointing readings on good-sounding CDs et cetera. When I heard the Hull Youth Orchestra recordings in the 1980s I was both horrified and amused. Now that I know the pieces they are playing, I compensate mentally for the deficiencies that are there, so that the performances can still be enjoyed by me... But it's a desperate measure!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 28, 2011, 06:40:56 AM
When I first heard these recordings,all those years ago (!),I remember thinking that there was something wrong with the record or Brian's string section must be very strange,to say the least. But it was all there was,and I desperately wanted to hear more Brian & this was the only way! Also,the first record I had was the one with 'In Memoriam' and 'Festal Dance',not the more complex works,that stretch them  beyond their juvenile abilities. And I do,strange as it may seem,prefer these two particular to the Naxos performances.
On the other hand,if I was you John, coming to these performances,for the first time,with all the recordings that are now available,I would probably feel exactly the way you do. A bit like chalk on a school blackboard!
Imagine if they performed the Gothic like that?

Third edit: Sorry about the style of this post. I had to slip out for a moment.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 28, 2011, 06:57:45 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 28, 2011, 06:40:56 AM
When I first heard these recordings,all those years ago (!),I remember thinking that there was something wrong with the record or Brian's string section must be very strange,to say the least. But it was all there was,and I desperately wanted to hear more Brian & this was the only way! Also,the first record I had was the one with 'In Memoriam' and 'Festal Dance',not the more complex works,that stretch them  beyond their juvenile abilities. And I do,strange as it may seem,prefer these to the Naxos performances.
On the other hand,if I was you John, coming to these performances,for the first time,with all the recordings that are now available,I would probably feel exactly the way you do.
Imagine if they performed the Gothic like that?

Third edit: Sorry about the style of this post. I had to slip out for a moment.

I find it hard listening to the LSSO at times but Hull is a bridge too far.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 28, 2011, 07:01:46 AM
Hull on earth,it appears!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2011, 07:02:25 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on July 28, 2011, 06:57:45 AM
I find it hard listening to the LSSO at times but Hull is a bridge too far.


Quote from: cilgwyn on July 28, 2011, 07:01:46 AM
Hull on earth, it appears!


;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 28, 2011, 07:03:44 AM
I like you're Shakespeare quote!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2011, 07:06:38 AM
It's one of the great moments of Western drama - Cleopatra seeing Antony return from battle, thinking all has been won...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 28, 2011, 07:19:33 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2011, 07:06:38 AM
It's one of the great moments of Western drama - Cleopatra seeing Antony return from battle, thinking all has been won...
Carry on Cleo. Now there's a work of art. Sid James RIP.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2011, 07:21:36 AM
This thread could be called Carry On Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2011, 07:32:43 AM
A snippet from the Judex movement, taken with a mobile phone by another Brianite, unfortunately stopping just before the final cataclysm...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmSL0lsHQZg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmSL0lsHQZg)


[corrected]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 28, 2011, 07:48:02 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2011, 07:32:43 AM
A snippet from the Judex movement, taken with a mobile phone by another Brianite, unfortunately stopping just before the final cataclysm...


http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/jmSL0lsHQZg
The link isn't working.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dax on July 28, 2011, 10:11:36 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 26, 2011, 11:48:16 AM
I wonder - did you download the new, improved mp3s of the Brisbane Gothic? They're terrific.
http://www.mediafire.com/?km7z6cl54mpyv

Very many thanks for that!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2011, 10:27:31 AM
Brian in The Economist.


http://www.economist.com/node/21524808 (http://www.economist.com/node/21524808)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 28, 2011, 11:20:50 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2011, 07:21:36 AM
This thread could be called Carry On Brian.

Maybe Ken Russell could make one of his fabulous composer films. What about "Life of Brian"? Has a ring to it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2011, 11:22:59 AM
I have heard that nice ring too many times already!  ;D See the last link to The Economist article...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 28, 2011, 11:33:11 AM
More of a job for Tony Palmer now, methinks, given his films in recent years on Malcolm Arnold, Vaughan Williams and Gustav Holst.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 28, 2011, 11:40:57 AM
On the other hand...Palmer would give us lots about HB's tangled love life in which my interest is precisely and exactly ZERO.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2011, 11:53:26 AM
Brian's love life is hardly spectacular - married a teacher, fathered five children (I think), then fell in love with the house-maid, eloped with her (if I remember correctly, and this is the only thing to 'milk'), got a divorce, and stayed faithful for 60-odd years, fathering another 5 children in the process (more or less, I lost  count).


He was no Wagner.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on July 28, 2011, 12:12:51 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2011, 11:53:26 AM
Brian's love life is hardly spectacular - married a teacher, fathered five children (I think), then fell in love with the house-maid, eloped with her (if I remember correctly, and this is the only thing to 'milk'), got a divorce, and stayed faithful for 60-odd years, fathering another 5 children in the process (more or less, I lost  count).

Doesn't sound hugely different from RVW. Surely Bax would be the target of a would be mud-raker.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2011, 12:24:14 PM
Yes, Bax and Sex, that would draw in the punters...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 28, 2011, 01:20:58 PM
I must admit Ken Russells too OTT for me. The thought of what he would do to Brian. I shudder to think.


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 28, 2011, 01:22:19 PM
I'm shuddering now!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 28, 2011, 02:29:37 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2011, 11:53:26 AM
Brian's love life is hardly spectacular - married a teacher, fathered five children (I think), then fell in love with the house-maid, eloped with her (if I remember correctly, and this is the only thing to 'milk'), got a divorce, and stayed faithful for 60-odd years, fathering another 5 children in the process (more or less, I lost  count).


He was no Wagner.

I used to think that about dear old 'Uncle Ralph' until Tony Palmer disabused me with all that stuff about RVW's sex life :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on July 28, 2011, 04:32:23 PM
Kenneth Eastaugh's book has Brian as a, lot more than a bit of, a devil; in fact, to the point of ugliness.

But, Eastuagh's book is sensationalist and Brian was an habitual liar so I don't know how much reliance to place on the bragging.

Who said favourite composers had to be nice people? none of my faves were/are.

He didn't divorce his first wife, he had to wait until her death, 20 years after leaving her, to marry his second wife. Which was causal to the beginning of his neglect.

Eastaugh's book took a month to arrive. I have his family tree spot on; there are no great revelations except for the possibility that Brian's patron Robinson's  wife, Helen Lees, may have been related to Brian's great grandmother Margaret Lees. Which might account for Robinson putting up with Brian's appalling behaviour; he was, extended, family.



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on July 29, 2011, 01:17:12 AM
Second thoughts, liar is too strong a word. Prone to exaggeration is nicer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 29, 2011, 01:23:32 AM
Thanks for refreshing my memories, Steve. I'd call Brian simply 'imaginative'... [on my way to Antwerp, in a crowded train, with daughter and ex]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Wanderer on July 29, 2011, 02:12:11 AM
Have there been any news/rumours regarding issuing a recording of the proms concert?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 29, 2011, 03:42:04 AM
The BBC recorded both the dress rehearsal and the performance. Let's wait and see. But there is a market for Brian!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 29, 2011, 08:06:28 AM
Brian Orchestral Works Vol 1 landed on the 'mat' (or lack of one) today. One Brian fact I gleaned from the booklet,and was previously unaware of,was that the 'Burlesque Variations' were only re-discovered in 1974.
Well,I didn't know that!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 29, 2011, 10:22:08 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2011, 10:27:31 AM
Brian in The Economist.

http://www.economist.com/node/21524808 (http://www.economist.com/node/21524808)

Hmmmmmmm...

Quote from: Economist 30 JulyAn opening that seems to marry "Jaws" with Gustav Mahler

Quote from: GMG Brian, Blog 18 Julyit starts with a theme that sounds rather unhappily like Mahler-meets-Jaws

Great minds...?  ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 29, 2011, 10:26:56 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 29, 2011, 03:42:04 AM
The BBC recorded both the dress rehearsal and the performance. Let's wait and see. But there is a market for Brian!

My bad. I misread it as "The BBC recorded both the dress rehearsal and the undressed..."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 29, 2011, 10:38:48 AM
Mahler meets Jaws. Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the concert hall!

And a BIG one too!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 29, 2011, 10:42:30 AM
@Brian When I read that, I thought - they pinched it from Brian!
@Springrite Symphony of the Thousand Undressed?
@Cilgwyn Haha!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 29, 2011, 11:12:18 AM
The Brian estate should sue!
In the meantime,avoid the front seats.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Wanderer on July 29, 2011, 12:26:00 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 29, 2011, 03:42:04 AM
The BBC recorded both the dress rehearsal and the performance. Let's wait and see.

That's good to hear (they'd be fools if they didn't); I guess some patience is in order but I trust we'll see it issued sooner or later.  8)

Quote from: springrite on July 29, 2011, 10:26:56 AM
I misread it as "The BBC recorded both the dress rehearsal and the undressed..."

How very Spencer Tunick of them... it would've made a cult video for sure.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on July 29, 2011, 12:47:19 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 29, 2011, 11:12:18 AM
In the meantime,avoid the front seats.

Yes, those are the splash zone. :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 29, 2011, 12:53:20 PM
Safely returned from Antwerp - nice, relaxed place.


A friend of mine on Facebook thought the online Gothic article in The Economist was abridged, as the ending seemed rather rushed. I checked the print edition today at the station - no difference.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on July 29, 2011, 01:31:56 PM
I see the Economist article is already repeating some "facts" about the Gothic and the performance that seem to have become urban myths since the event: the Gothic is a war symphony (really?  The Leningrad is a war symphony; The Tigers is a war opera) and: there was an audible gasp from the audience when the lights came on and the choirs stood up (no there wasn't; there was an audible swish of choristers' clothing - the only sound from the audience was me groaning at the unbelievable tackiness of it, not to mention the bad timing of having soloists walking distractingly across the stage while Brian was fortissimo-ing his way through C - F# - Dm.)

DF
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 29, 2011, 02:22:26 PM
I wonder what other movies Brian has unintentionally scored? Mahler meets Jaws is a classic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 29, 2011, 03:20:14 PM
@DaveF


I have noticed, too, how several critics have claimed the Gothic is a reaction to the First World War. I know Malcolm MacDonald also sees the work as such, but with him it's an interpretation, whereas those critics present it as fact. The (dubious) advantage is: it can function as a key to understanding, it can even make the Gothic look more 'respectable' and worthy of serious attention. The Gothic could well come to be seen as one of the great works inspired by the Great War. Whether that would be true, is a difficult question, as Brian's main inspiration for the Gothic seems to have been the serried ranks of  'freshly ploughed fields' in the Sussex Downs! Still, if the Great War connection helps people appreciate the Gothic, so be it! This is a (possible and temporary) misconception I can live with...


The choir standing up and the appearance of the soloists during the climactic moment of the Vivace was indeed distracting (a bit). And there was no 'audible gasp', how could it be over all that 'racket'? I personally didn't find the effect 'tacky', though. I enjoyed the drama of it. But that's me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on July 29, 2011, 09:02:53 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 29, 2011, 03:20:14 PM
Brian's main inspiration for the Gothic seems to have been the serried ranks of  'freshly ploughed fields' in the Sussex Downs!

Also claimed as a source of inspiration by two other great English eccentrics, John Cowper Powys and Gerard Manley Hopkins.  Ploughed fields have much to answer for.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 29, 2011, 09:21:21 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on July 28, 2011, 02:29:37 PM
I used to think that about dear old 'Uncle Ralph' until Tony Palmer disabused me with all that stuff about RVW's sex life :o

I really disliked Palmer's film about RVW. Not because of it's controversial subject matter, but rather with overall presentation of the film. It was a complete unorganized nightmare. Two and half hours of pure, unadulterated chaos. I had high hopes for this documentary and really wanted to learn more about one of my favorite composer's life, but I'm afraid all I walked away with was a bad taste in mouth. A missed opportunity I say.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 29, 2011, 11:16:59 PM
Quote from: DaveF on July 29, 2011, 09:02:53 PM
Also claimed as a source of inspiration by two other great English eccentrics, John Cowper Powys and Gerard Manley Hopkins.

Brilliant connections! Not unsurprisingly, both Hopkins and JCP are among my favourites... Hopkins uses the furrow and the plough - from memory - in 'Hurrahing in Harvest' and 'The Windhover'. Where, in all his millions of words, are JCP's descriptions? I personally have always linked the rugged 'sprung rhythm' of Hopkins with the same phenomenon in Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: 5against4 on July 29, 2011, 11:20:46 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 29, 2011, 03:20:14 PM
I have noticed, too, how several critics have claimed the Gothic is a reaction to the First World War. I know Malcolm MacDonald also sees the work as such, but with him it's an interpretation, whereas those critics present it as fact. The (dubious) advantage is: it can function as a key to understanding, it can even make the Gothic look more 'respectable' and worthy of serious attention. The Gothic could well come to be seen as one of the great works inspired by the Great War. Whether that would be true, is a difficult question, as Brian's main inspiration for the Gothic seems to have been the serried ranks of  'freshly ploughed fields' in the Sussex Downs! Still, if the Great War connection helps people appreciate the Gothic, so be it! This is a (possible and temporary) misconception I can live with...
Speaking personally, i must say i find many of the comments i've read concerning the Gothic & the Great War to be entirely spurious. One can argue pretty convincingly that it has its militaristic passages (although even that is an interpretation, mind you), but trying to extend that notion to encapsulate the work as a whole seems ridiculous. The only connection to war that i can ascertain from the piece, & i mentioned this in my article, is a sonic allusion to the aesthetic 'liberation' that one finds all across Europe (most notably in architecture) in the wake of the Great War. But while that brand of utopian expressionism could arguably only really happen because of war, it is absolutely not about war, & likewise with the Gothic. The quirky, non-sequitur-ridden freedom that Brian exhibits in the piece, to my mind at least, projects very much more of that liberated spirit than the attempt to create some kind of war-scarred epic. The latter would most definitely bore me to tears, & the Gothic thankfully doesn't do that.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 29, 2011, 11:33:02 PM
I agree with you, 5:4. The Gothic isn't a work of mourning and remembrance, like John Foulds's 'World Requiem' or Frank Bridge's 'Oration' (a great cello concerto in all but name), it is a much larger conception. It forges ahead as much as it looks back, sometimes in sorrow. It is a visionary arrow into the future - now?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on July 30, 2011, 05:38:44 AM
Quote from: DaveF on July 29, 2011, 01:31:56 PM
I see the Economist article is already repeating some "facts" about the Gothic and the performance that seem to have become urban myths since the event: the Gothic is a war symphony (really?  The Leningrad is a war symphony; The Tigers is a war opera) and: there was an audible gasp from the audience when the lights came on and the choirs stood up (no there wasn't; there was an audible swish of choristers' clothing - the only sound from the audience was me groaning at the unbelievable tackiness of it, not to mention the bad timing of having soloists walking distractingly across the stage while Brian was fortissimo-ing his way through C - F# - Dm.)

DF

Like Johan, I didn't find the moment when the choirs stood up and the soloists came on stage in the slightest 'tacky'. It was imo opinion quite breathtakingly spectacular.

HOWEVER...I do take your point about 'distracting'. I had been building myself up for that great cadence and-in retrospect-the full sonic grandeur was lessened in its impact by the very spectacular of what was happening with the choirs and soloists.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2011, 07:20:21 AM
From: Havergal Brian, 'The Mahler Revival' (1930) in: Havergal Brian on Music, Volume Two: European and American Music, ed. Malcolm MacDonald, p. 83-85:


"Was there an absence of vitality in the music that caused the first impressions of the Bruckner and Mahler Symphonies to fade away so quickly? Such interest as remained from the pioneer performances has been kept alive by a few enthusiasts who possessed the scores. It is entirely a speculative question if the same repeated performances which followed the new works by Strauss had been given to Bruckner and Mahler, whether they would have just as quickly obtained a sympathetic and interested following as did Strauss. Supposing that the symphonic poems of Strauss and the symphonies of Tchaikovsky had met with the same indifference as those of Bruckner and Mahler, would there ever have been a public clamouring for them? A symphonic work cannot be thoroughly enjoyed or appreciated until it is really known. Intimate understanding is only gained by repeated hearing."


"We feel quite sanguine of the ultimate success of the Bruckner and Mahler symphonies."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2011, 07:42:16 AM
Karl reacted to this on the Bruckner thread, wondering why Brian singles out symphonic music. I replied that, yes,  chamber music demands as much, if not more, close attention and that Brian probably shows his symphonic bias...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on August 04, 2011, 07:49:47 AM
I wonder whether he meant the statement specifically to apply to "maximalist" orchestral music in the context of an article about Mahler. Robert Simpson mentioned that his chamber music is much better performed than his symphonies because of the nature of their selection and reheharsal as a lengthy personal project of internalisation by the musicians involved, and perhaps chamber music does fare better in terms of initial advocacy than orchestral pieces which often only receive one rehearsal.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2011, 07:53:09 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 04, 2011, 07:49:47 AM
I wonder whether he meant the statement specifically to apply to "maximalist" orchestral music in the context of an article about Mahler. Robert Simpson mentioned that his chamber music is much better performed than his symphonies because of the nature of their selection and reheharsal as a lengthy personal project of internalisation by the musicians involved, and perhaps chamber music does fare better in terms of initial advocacy than orchestral pieces which often only receive one rehearsal.


Yes, there is that context, too, of course. That's why I copied as much as I did. I found Brian's observation so remarkably applicable to the reception his own Gothic got in some quarters, a few weeks ago...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on August 04, 2011, 08:10:02 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2011, 07:53:09 AM

Yes, there is that context, too, of course. That's why I copied as much as I did. I found Brian's observation so remarkably applicable to the reception his own Gothic got in some quarters, a few weeks ago...

Well, if we are cast in the Havergal Brian role, that's rather flattering. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2011, 08:14:43 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 04, 2011, 08:10:02 AM
Well, if we are cast in the Havergal Brian role, that's rather flattering. :)


I wish I could be as 'sanguine' of his 'ultimate success' as he was of Bruckner's and Mahler's, though!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on August 04, 2011, 08:30:58 AM
NPR played highlights of the Gothic symphony from the bbc this morning, I caught some of it.  A good stirring performance I think.  The host said that it was an event because the Gothic usually only gets performed once a generation, and that it was hard to get tickets. :D  So I should applaud you all for getting tickets, but I guess y'all ordered them months go! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2011, 08:34:56 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 04, 2011, 08:30:58 AM
NPR played highlights of the Gothic symphony from the bbc this morning, I caught some of it.  A good stirring performance I think.  The host said that it was an event because the Gothic usually only gets performed once a generation, and that it was hard to get tickets. :D  So I should applaud you all for getting tickets, but I guess y'all ordered them months go! ;D


Long live NPR!


Jeffrey (vandermolen), Luke and Brian were promming, so they were standing in the Arena. They bought their tickets after the official sale started. Colin, Albion and I bought them earlier (and at a higher cost) through another site...


P.S. Forgot DaveF. Don't know how he got his ticket, though...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 04, 2011, 09:15:47 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2011, 08:34:56 AM
. . . Colin, Albion and I bought them earlier (and at a higher cost) through another site...

One often tries to economize, of course. Still, there are events for which you pay a premium, and consider it money entirely well spent.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2011, 09:59:52 AM
As you will have gathered, I got my copy of Havergal Brian on Music, vol. 2 today. It makes for fascinating reading, you can apply many things Brian says about others to himself and (some of) his works. Take, for instance, this comment in 1934 about Busoni's mammoth Piano Concerto (p. 160-161) and think of The Gothic:


"A recent study of the score leaves me perplexed as to its lack of popularity, for musicians as a rule respond to beautiful melodies, to sumptuous and richly musical sonorities, to vivid orchestration, and to palpitating rhythms. There is every quality of attractiveness, the movements being built on either dance or march rhythms. Colossal stature or great lenghth may have hindered its performance, for it really is twice as long as most concertos; but the concert-goer, for whom most novelties are produced, does not trouble about size or length. He is only interested in music. He certainly might raise an eyebrow when told to listen to a double-length concerto, but would not worry about the pattern, let it be Mozartian, Brahmsian, or what it may! As a rule he does not know enough about the technique of composition to trouble about it. Who would pay to listen to 'form' when music is about? Lastly, a composer can do what he likes as regards length, provided always that he is intelligible and can hold his listeners. Busoni was much too great a craftsman to become obscure."


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 04, 2011, 01:09:17 PM
Very interesting. You're excerpts made me look up the review of the first book on Musicweb. Unlike some re-printed criticism from the past this looks as if it gets to the matter in hand,instead of the usual self indulgent jokes and pompous grand standing. It's lively,no nonsense writing & if I'm not mistaken,a step up from the usual dry as dust,long winded hectoring,you so often get from this period. In fact,the style of writing strikes me as very 'modern' for the time in which it was written.
I have read some excerpts from HB's journalism before,but is his writing all as eloquent as this? If so,I'm going to have to slap these books on my list!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2011, 01:13:04 PM
The second review is worth reading, too. And yes, there are illuminating pearls scattered everywhere, that either teach you something about Brian or about his subject, or both simultaneously...


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev//2010/Oct10/Brian_book.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev//2010/Oct10/Brian_book.htm)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 04, 2011, 01:33:42 PM
Thankyou for the handy link,Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 04, 2011, 04:09:39 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 04, 2011, 09:15:47 AM
One often tries to economize, of course. Still, there are events for which you pay a premium, and consider it money entirely well spent.

Having missed out in 1966 there was no way I was going to miss this performance :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 05, 2011, 12:17:22 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2011, 08:34:56 AM

Long live NPR!


Jeffrey (vandermolen), Luke and Brian were promming, so they were standing in the Arena. They bought their tickets after the official sale started. Colin, Albion and I bought them earlier (and at a higher cost) through another site...


P.S. Forgot DaveF. Don't know how he got his ticket, though...

I was actually standing in the Gallery at the top of the Albert Hall.  My brother and I met for lunch at c 12.45 at a Polish restaurant in South Kensington and after several Polish beers I was ready for five hours in a queue during bursts of torrential rain. We were in the queue by c 2.00pm and were advised to queue for the Gallery rather than the Arena as we were told that we had much more chance of getting in, as so much of the Arena was taken up by the huge orchestral forces.  Actually we must have been about the 5th and 6th people in the queue - but season ticket holders would have priority.  It was well organised as they gave us numbered cloakroom tickets, so that we could leave the queue for half-an-hour or so (or an hour to attend the talk at the RCM) and retain our places. They were well organised - when it rained heavily a very pleasant young girl appeared to guide us all to a sheltered area for the duration. This was quite different to the 'every man for himself' scenario in the prom queues of my youth!

As for the soloists walking on stage - I rather liked that and only found it distracting in a good way - quite exciting really - like when the percussion section stands up for the closing sections of Shostakovich's 11th Symphony (especially when I was sitting right behind them in the choir stalls at the Festival Hall).

There was a moment of high comedy before the Brian concert started.  My older brother had bought a shooting stick to sit on during the concert - he meticulously assembled it - sat down and toppled straight backwards on to the floor - he wasn't hurt and was the first to comment that it was just as well my daughter wasn't there as she would have had a hysterical giggling fit!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 05, 2011, 08:06:37 AM
Terrific post, Jeffrey!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Renfield on August 09, 2011, 11:13:07 PM
Rather obviously, I wasn't there for the Gothic after all - much to my significant disappointment. On the one hand, I sadly just couldn't afford the London trip the way my finances are at the moment; on the other, even if I could, I had guests.

So you might say I chose being a good host over a personal indulgence. My grandmother, were she alive, would surely have been proud! Either way, though, I was most disappointed for missing the chance to meet all of you in person.


Still, how was it? Historic, obviously, and very likely spectacular. But for those of you who know the piece very well, to say the least, how would you appraise the performance? Did it live up to your musical expectations?

I've little doubt the BBC recording will eventually be issued in some form. Will it be the Gothic, when it is?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 09, 2011, 11:32:08 PM
Hi, Eugene! For comment and reaction go back to 17th July in these pages. A lot has been said by all those who were fortunate enough to have been present...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 09, 2011, 11:43:53 PM
Quote from: Renfield on August 09, 2011, 11:13:07 PM
Rather obviously, I wasn't there for the Gothic after all - much to my significant disappointment. On the one hand, I sadly just couldn't afford the London trip the way my finances are at the moment; on the other, even if I could, I had guests.

So you might say I chose being a good host over a personal indulgence. My grandmother, were she alive, would surely have been proud! Either way, though, I was most disappointed for missing the chance to meet all of you in person.


Still, how was it? Historic, obviously, and very likely spectacular. But for those of you who know the piece very well, to say the least, how would you appraise the performance? Did it live up to your musical expectations?

I've little doubt the BBC recording will eventually be issued in some form. Will it be the Gothic, when it is?

For me it definitely surpassed expectations and it was a greater performance, as far as I can remember, than the Ole Schmidt one of the 1980s, which I also attended in the same venue (though sitting not standing).  Certainly, I now have a much greater appreciation of the Te Deum Part 2 than before.  There was a great atmosphere at the Albert Hall and , of course, it was an added bonus to meet up with Johan, Brian and Colin after the concert in the pub.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Renfield on August 09, 2011, 11:56:28 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 09, 2011, 11:32:08 PM
Hi, Eugene! For comment and reaction go back to 17th July in these pages. A lot has been said by all those who were fortunate enough to have been present...

Hi Johan! True enough, I suspect you've taken it apart rather meticulously. However, the reason I'm asking now, rather than closer to the date (nevermind my aforementioned guest situation) is so I can get your 'settled' impressions, as it were.


Quote from: vandermolen on August 09, 2011, 11:43:53 PM
For me it definitely surpassed expectations and it was a greater performance, as far as I can remember, than the Ole Schmidt one of the 1980s, which I also attended in the same venue (though sitting not standing).  Certainly, I now have a much greater appreciation of the Te Deum Part 2 than before.  There was a great atmosphere at the Albert Hall and , of course, it was an added bonus to meet up with Johan, Brian and Colin after the concert in the pub.

Thanks, Jeffrey. Besides the Gothic, I do envy the pub.

How about the Boult?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 10, 2011, 12:06:56 AM
Quote from: Renfield on August 09, 2011, 11:56:28 PM
Hi Johan! True enough, I suspect you've taken it apart rather meticulously. However, the reason I'm asking now, rather than closer to the date (nevermind my aforementioned guest situation) is so I can get your 'settled' impressions, as it were.


Thanks, Jeffrey. Besides the Gothic, I do envy the pub.

How about the Boult?

Well, I wasn't at the Boult as I was only 10 or 11 at the time - although I did attend Wembley Stadium, in the same year, to see England win the football World Cup for the first and last time  :D.  I have the Boult recording - which I enjoy but with this work it is difficult to compare with a live performance.  I tend to play the Marco Polo/Naxos recording more often because of the more modern recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 10, 2011, 12:14:05 AM
Quote from: Renfield on August 09, 2011, 11:56:28 PM
Hi Johan! True enough, I suspect you've taken it apart rather meticulously. However, the reason I'm asking now, rather than closer to the date (nevermind my aforementioned guest situation) is so I can get your 'settled' impressions, as it were.


You crafty beggar, don't want to wade through dozens of pages, eh? Can't blame you...  ;)


My 'settled opinion'? Brabbins gave as the coolest, most meticulous performance so far. Boulez does Brian. Brabbins had everything under firm control - The Gothic became a large, but very efficient machine. This all in retrospect and after several listens, mind you. The sound in the Hall wasn't very good, but the atmosphere was tremendous and so was the spectacle itself. You got carried along. It was all very exciting. But again, what strikes me now is that the Brabbins performance, purely judged on its 'audio', is perhaps a tad too cool for my liking. I have noticed I tend to prefer the Curro (Brisbane), because that performance has the white heat that Brian must have felt when he conceived The Gothic. The chorus struggles a bit in that performance and they don't have the numbers. Nor are the soloists all that good (apart from the bass). [At the RAH the choir lost pitch, too (unavoidable).]  So - Brabbins gives us an x-ray, exposing many details I have never noticed before, Curro the body. I'm simplifying, of course... As for Boult, Schmidt, Lenard - I haven't had the time to listen to them again and really digest the differences. That will take time.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 12:22:58 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 10, 2011, 12:14:05 AM

You crafty beggar, don't want to wade through dozens of pages, eh? Can't blame you...  ;)

Wade through, and piece together! Emphasis on the latter. Also, the above was a remarkably informative paragraph, vs. pages of no-doubt-warranted excitement and esoterica the particular signifance of which I am unlikely to grasp. ;)


Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 10, 2011, 12:14:05 AM

My 'settled opinion'? Brabbins gave as the coolest, most meticulous performance so far. Boulez does Brian. Brabbins had everything under firm control - The Gothic became a large, but very efficient machine. This all in retrospect and after several listens, mind you. The sound in the Hall wasn't very good, but the atmosphere was tremendous and so was the spectacle itself. You got carried along. It was all very exciting. But again, what strikes me now is that the Brabbins performance, purely judged on its 'audio', is perhaps a tad too cool for my liking. I have noticed I tend to prefer the Curro (Brisbane), because that performance has the white heat that Brian must have felt when he conceived The Gothic. The chorus struggles a bit in that performance and they don't have the numbers. Nor are the soloists all that good (apart from the bass). [At the RAH the choir lost pitch, too (unavoidable).]  So - Brabbins gives us an x-ray, exposing many details I have never noticed before, Curro the body. I'm simplifying, of course... As for Boult, Schmidt, Lenard - I haven't had the time to listen to them again and really digest the differences. That will take time.

Very interesting. Playing it a little safe, perhaps, given the occasion? Nonetheless, I'm intrigued by the thought of a Boulez-does-Brian Gothic; as I am by how even a carefully-rehearsed choir can't really handle that monster! :D


Jeffrey, I could probably get away with asking how it compared to the World Cup final, seeing as both involve about the same number of people shouting... ;D Albeit more artfully, in the case of the Gothic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 10, 2011, 12:29:18 AM
Quote from: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 12:22:58 AM
Wade through, and piece together! Emphasis on the latter. Also, the above was a remarkably informative paragraph, vs. pages of no-doubt-warranted excitement and esoterica the particular signifance of which I am unlikely to grasp. ;)


Very interesting. Playing it a little safe, perhaps, given the occasion? Nonetheless, I'm intrigued by the thought of a Boulez-does-Brian Gothic; as I am by how even a carefully-rehearsed choir can't really handle that monster! :D


Jeffrey, I could probably get away with asking how it compared to the World Cup final, seeing as both involve about the same number of people shouting... ;D Albeit more artfully, in the case of the Gothic.


I have uploaded two snippets of the performance to my YouTube channel (Jezetha). They give you a flavour. If you haven't seen them already, that is...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 12:31:11 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 10, 2011, 12:29:18 AM

I have uploaded two snippets of the performance to my YouTube channel (Jezetha). They give you a flavour. If you haven't seen them already, that is...

I haven't! Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 10, 2011, 02:09:09 AM
Quote from: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 12:22:58 AM
Jeffrey, I could probably get away with asking how it compared to the World Cup final, seeing as both involve about the same number of people shouting... ;D Albeit more artfully, in the case of the Gothic.

Very funny! Well, at least I got to hear the Brian 'Gothic' live twice - I doubt that I shall live long enough to see England win the World Cup again - maybe, if I live as long as my wife's grandmother who is in her 103rd year!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on August 10, 2011, 05:06:33 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 10, 2011, 12:14:05 AM
But again, what strikes me now is that the Brabbins performance, purely judged on its 'audio', is perhaps a tad too cool for my liking.

Do you think that this is based on his experience with conducting the later works first? Do you believe the "passion" of the Gothic remains in the later works, or perhaps the conductor has to emphasis clarity simply to render all the complex lines audible and comprehesible?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 10, 2011, 05:22:39 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 10, 2011, 05:06:33 AM
Do you think that this is based on his experience with conducting the later works first? Do you believe the "passion" of the Gothic remains in the later works, or perhaps the conductor has to emphasis clarity simply to render all the complex lines audible and comprehesible?


A very good question. I started writing an answer, but that got longer and longer... I need time. I'll be back.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 10, 2011, 05:54:17 AM
I think Martyn Brabbins is a very sober, a very no-nonsense conductor, whatever work he tackles. He reminds me of Thomas Dausgaard and Thomas Sanderling, whose recordings of Langgaard and Magnard, respectively, are also models of clarity. On Brabbins' Brian CD all the performances - of symphonies 10 and 31, the Third English Suite and the Concerto for Orchestra - are marked by a firm grip and an excellent understanding of the structures Brian devises. In Brian's music a conductor must get the intellectual and the emotional component right, Brian the architect and Brian the expressionist, the builder and the man responding to some powerful urge that makes him break his train of thought and suddenly open an unexpected vista. To give us that exciting shock, a conductor must be able to let go, to let himself be carried along, and this is something I slightly miss in Brabbins. With some of Brian's later, 'cooler' works, it pays dividends to be so disciplined, but even in No. 30 I think Brabbins' tempo in the first movement is too upbeat for what is, essentially, rather elegiac and sombre music.


As for The Gothic I think Brabbins gets the first two movements very very well. The climax of the Vivace, though, with that triumphal march and those three amazing chords, sounds rushed. The Te Deum laudamus 4th movement is all but perfect, but the Judex - apart from the difficulties the choir has with intonation - doesn't come off as it should (to these ears): the first orchestral interlude must be slow and processional, but Brabbins is too slow, which robs the music of its menace. And the second interlude must be brisker, and gets to be that only by a sudden accelerando (I don't own a score, though...). The final movement is, overall, excellent. Does The Gothic need that 'white heat' more than the other works? Perhaps. But I am not certain. As I said, everything Brian wrote is a mixture of the (seemingly?) planned and unpremeditated, of construction and fantasy.


In conclusion - I don't think Brabbins has been influenced by his experience of conducting some of Brian's later works. I think he is 'simply' a very consistent conductor.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on August 10, 2011, 05:59:02 AM
Dank je wel, it was nice to read you thoughts.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Renfield on August 10, 2011, 03:59:49 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 10, 2011, 05:59:02 AM
Dank je wel, it was nice to read you thoughts.

Seconding that. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on August 11, 2011, 10:44:33 PM
The much-anticipated second volume in Toccata's Havergal Brian mini-series is now listed as 'in preparation' on their website -

(http://www.toccataclassics.com/cms/tmp/thumbs/TOCC0113-cover-225x-D004E9C0.jpg)

TOCC 0113

This will be a fascinating exploration of orchestral music from Brian's operas, including the relatively well-known Symphonic Variations from The Tigers, but also encompassing previously unrecorded extracts from Turandot (1951), The Cenci (1951-52) and Faust (1955-56).

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 11, 2011, 10:56:46 PM
Thanks, John! I'm glad to see this lacuna in the Brian discography finally filled. On to the complete operas!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on August 12, 2011, 07:08:47 AM
Sweet, I was especially interested in the Cenci overture from what I had read about the piece. Also seeing the word "Night Ride" in a symphonic piece immediately begs Sibelius comparisons ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on August 13, 2011, 01:05:05 AM
Johan,
I have two email addresses for you and I can't remember which is the latest!. If you email me I will send you an invitation to the HB family tree I have compiled.
It's on a newish site called Mundia and is free although you have to sign up for it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 13, 2011, 01:10:40 AM
That sounds interesting! My email address is very simple. Just append @gmail.com to my surname...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on August 13, 2011, 02:18:23 AM
Happy to report that, on NaxosDirect.co.uk, the Naxos "Gothic" is the current #1 bestseller, followed by the new 20/25 release at #4.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 13, 2011, 02:24:53 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 13, 2011, 02:18:23 AM
Happy to report that, on NaxosDirect.co.uk, the Naxos "Gothic" is the current #1 bestseller, followed by the new 20/25 release at #4.


The 20/25 is already down to #5, but never mind... This is terrific. I like the '21st anniversary limited edition'. Havergal Brian as a scarce and, thus, desirable good - who would have thought it?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on August 13, 2011, 02:36:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 13, 2011, 02:24:53 AM

The 20/25 is already down to #5, but never mind... This is terrific. I like the '21st anniversary limited edition'. Havergal Brian as a scarce and, thus, desirable good - who would have thought it?!

Yes, he is the Maserati of composers. ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 13, 2011, 02:37:48 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 13, 2011, 02:36:25 AM
Yes, he is the Maserati of composers. ;D


;D  His detractors would call him the Miserati...  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 15, 2011, 06:41:33 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 13, 2011, 02:37:48 AM

;D  His detractors would call him the Miserati...  :D

Or the Miserere . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 21, 2011, 08:34:32 AM
I assume that you all heard the pre-Proms talk by Sarah Walker that was broadcast immediatley before the Brabbins Gothic. If not here it is (all 44 mins) for you to enjoy.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ogxaa5c56ehp4
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 21, 2011, 10:15:22 AM
I heard it, of course. I liked the horn-player, who all but cursed Brian...  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 22, 2011, 05:09:15 AM

I can reveal that Hyperion will be releasing a recording of the 2011 Proms performance in the next month or so!! :) :)

(Apologies if this news has already been posted elsewhere)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 22, 2011, 05:11:56 AM
That's news to me! Terrific!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 22, 2011, 05:14:35 AM
My informant-who just happens to be writing the cd booklet notes ;D-tells me that Hyperion are "rushing" the recording out :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 22, 2011, 05:15:58 AM
News to me, as well. (Well, not all that surprising, I do allow . . . .)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 22, 2011, 05:16:57 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 22, 2011, 05:14:35 AM
My informant-who just happens to be writing the cd booklet notes ;D -tells me that Hyperion are "rushing" the recording out :)


Yes, there is money in Brian.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 22, 2011, 05:18:31 AM
I wonder if there was a bidding war ;D

Hyperion v Chandos v Dutton?

Anyway, Hyperion it is!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 22, 2011, 05:21:55 AM
I know for a fact, and can now 'reveal' it,  two companies were indeed interested. I think Chandos and Hyperion (if I heard it correctly, it was the day after the concert, when I had lunch with the HBS committee).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on August 22, 2011, 05:25:05 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 22, 2011, 05:14:35 AM
My informant-who just happens to be writing the cd booklet notes ;D-tells me that Hyperion are "rushing" the recording out :)

Well I do hope they are not rushing some of the sound-editing etc.... (5against4's mp3s, presumably straight from the BBC, could still use some balance help: there's not quite enough organ for me at the end of i. and I listen in despair that any amount of post-production could get the brass bands sufficiently spatially distinct) and I do kind of wish it had ended up on a label which released surround-sound CDs... but of course I'm still excited to buy a copy!

Listened to the Gothic again on the flight back to the USA. The architectural detail of the work just gets more and more engrossing the more familiar with it I become - there are several recurring motifs but HB seems reluctant to let us hear them too clearly. I'm also more and more in agreement with Kenneth Woods' suggestion that the symphony is all about withholding a sort of cathartic climactic Exhilaration Point until the very last bar. Not just the way the vivace climax cuts off to silence like evil Sibelius, not just the way the final chord of Iudex cuts off extremely quickly, but also the episode with 10 or so minutes to go in the finale, ecstatic and all-consumingly glorious, which HB again cuts off so he can bring back the goofy clarinet march. So many climactic moments are withheld - because there's something we can't have until the final words...

Not at all surprised if Chandos and Hyperion fought for the recording. Nostradamus could have guessed that! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 22, 2011, 05:34:39 AM
I am so glad you were there, Brian, because you can now add to my knowledge. I like that idea of 'withholding' something, because it is a Brian trait, not something that occurs in The Gothic only. Havergal Brian is terse, laconic, reticent, he likes keeping things in check, which is the obverse of the ecstatic or aggressive abandon of which he is capable, too. But: the demolition is always controlled. It is this tension which makes his music the powerful thing it is.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on August 22, 2011, 06:14:43 AM
That is very pleasing ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Renfield on August 22, 2011, 06:37:32 AM
Excellent news! Thanks, Colin (and Johan for the background ;D).


Edit: Maybe 'his time has come'. Or is on the way, as it were.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 22, 2011, 06:42:35 AM
I assume that Hyperion will have access to the rehearsal tapes in order to cover a couple of minor fluffs, dropped mutes and coughs and wayward choir intonation. The basic BBC recording will certainly be good and with some post production and no need for sound compression for radio relay this could be pretty special. I hope they don't tinker with the super contra bassoon balance in the 3rd movement. Maybe a 3 CD set with the Sarah Walker pre-concert talk could be in the offing?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on August 22, 2011, 06:47:18 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 22, 2011, 06:42:35 AM
I assume that Hyperion will have access to the rehearsal tapes in order to cover a couple of minor fluffs, dropped mutes and coughs and wayward choir intonation. The basic BBC recording will certainly be good and with some post production and no need for sound compression for radio relay this could be pretty special. I hope they don't tinker with the super contra bassoon balance in the 3rd movement. Maybe a 3 CD set with the Sarah Walker pre-concert talk could be in the offing?

The Sarah Walker pre-concert talk is only 44 minutes. That leaves about 37 minutes on that disc for some GMG Concert Attendee Talk as the second half of that disc!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 22, 2011, 07:27:33 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 22, 2011, 06:42:35 AM
I assume that Hyperion will have access to the rehearsal tapes in order to cover a couple of minor fluffs, dropped mutes and coughs and wayward choir intonation.


Exactly this was discussed the day after. There is one difficulty: the hall was empty during the rehearsal, making for a different sound. I wonder if and how Hyperion is going to solve that problem.



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 22, 2011, 07:28:19 AM
Quote from: springrite on August 22, 2011, 06:47:18 AM
The Sarah Walker pre-concert talk is only 44 minutes. That leaves about 37 minutes on that disc for some GMG Concert Attendee Talk as the second half of that disc!


:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 22, 2011, 07:50:48 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 22, 2011, 07:27:33 AM

Exactly this was discussed the day after. There is one difficulty: the hall was empty during the rehearsal, making for a different sound. I wonder if and how Hyperion is going to solve that problem.

With modern recording techniques it won't be a problem. The mics will have been very close to avoid the dreaded RAH reverb resulting in a fairly dry sound. Had this been in the 1960s with analogue magnetic tape and razor blades it would have posed a problem or two. Not so nowadays. The orchestral playing was pretty immaculate so few patches will be needed. The choirs were the problem but no surprise there. As they  say in the profession "there are musicians and there are singers". Sadly true!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 22, 2011, 07:58:31 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 22, 2011, 07:50:48 AM
With modern recording techniques it won't be a problem. The mics will have been very close to avoid the dreaded RAH reverb resulting in a fairly dry sound. Had this been in the 1960s with analogue magnetic tape and razor blades it would have posed a problem or two. Not so nowadays. The orchestral playing was pretty immaculate so few patches will be needed.


Interesting post, John! If all this wizardry is possible, I can really look forward to that CD without palpitations...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 22, 2011, 08:47:17 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 22, 2011, 07:58:31 AM

Interesting post, John! If all this wizardry is possible, I can really look forward to that CD without palpitations...

No palpitations required Johan. Digital technology makes all manner of cheating possible. I remember being in Decca's editing suite during some Argo sessions way back in 1970. A near perfect take was recorded followed by a patch to cover two or three bars. A razor blade and sticky tape was used to put the two together. Sometimes - Bingo! Other times you could hear a change in pitch, ambience or tempo and the whole thing had to be done again. After 5 hours there were several metres of tape all over the floor. I'm a huge fan of analogue sound but digital recording makes editing so easy. If there is a difference in ambience or pitch between the BBC concert and the rehearsal recordings it will be fixed. You might find my ramblings about Decca Studio No.3 in West Hampstead mildly interesting:

http://www.kevindaly.org.uk/kevinremembered/recording-with-the-leicestershire-schools-symphony-orchestra/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 22, 2011, 08:52:53 AM
Fascinating stuff, John!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 22, 2011, 08:53:32 AM
Read it... Very entertaining!


Looking back at this project, it probably wasn't a really a good idea to book 47 members of the LSSO into a London hotel for the weekend, allow them to team up with friends from the Royal Academy of Music and give them the freedom of the West End.

Finally we came to Sir Michael [Tippett] and his Shires Suite, another work written for the orchestra and premiered at the 1970 Cheltenham Festival. Two movements were recorded: Interlude II and Epilogue. In the Interlude II he just couldn't get the right percussion sound. Cellist Martin Walker accidentally hit one of the huge aluminium ash trays, which were scattered around the studio floor, with his bow. "That's it!" shouted Michael and an ash tray was passed through the ranks to the percussion section.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 22, 2011, 09:04:22 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 22, 2011, 08:53:32 AM
Read it... Very entertaining!


Looking back at this project, it probably wasn't a really a good idea to book 47 members of the LSSO into a London hotel for the weekend, allow them to team up with friends from the Royal Academy of Music and give them the freedom of the West End.

Finally we came to Sir Michael [Tippett] and his Shires Suite, another work written for the orchestra and premiered at the 1970 Cheltenham Festival. Two movements were recorded: Interlude II and Epilogue. In the Interlude II he just couldn't get the right percussion sound. Cellist Martin Walker accidentally hit one of the huge aluminium ash trays, which were scattered around the studio floor, with his bow. "That's it!" shouted Michael and an ash tray was passed through the ranks to the percussion section.

I have it on good authority that this is the only recording of Tippett's music that uses an ash tray in the percussion section, brilliantly played by Steve Whittaker who years later played xylo on Schmidt's Gothic!!.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 22, 2011, 09:21:33 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 22, 2011, 09:04:22 AM
I have it on good authority that this is the only recording of Tippett's music that uses an ash tray in the percussion section, brilliantly played by Steve Whittaker who years later played xylo on Schmidt's Gothic!!.


Here he and it is...


http://www.4shared.com/audio/B53jHmy9/Schmidt_Xylo_Brian.html (http://www.4shared.com/audio/B53jHmy9/Schmidt_Xylo_Brian.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 22, 2011, 10:07:04 AM
Here is the brilliant ash tray playing:

http://youtu.be/PEsRgkk0LLg
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on August 22, 2011, 03:03:55 PM
Many thanks for this news regarding Hyperion and The Gothic! I would personally have put money on Chandos being the front-runner (after the World Requiem) but in any case this will be a very welcome release indeed and can do nothing but good for Havergal Brian's cause.

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on August 22, 2011, 03:11:28 PM
Excellent! Another recording of the Gothic at last. Glad that Hyperion will be putting it out. With their technology and fantastic audio capabilities, I'm sure this will be a worthy addition to the Brian recorded catalogue.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 23, 2011, 06:32:38 AM
Christmas has indeed come early for HB enthusiasts.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Renfield on August 24, 2011, 07:25:45 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 23, 2011, 06:32:38 AM
Christmas has indeed come early for HB enthusiasts.

And also some of us watching from the sidelines. :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2011, 07:38:24 AM
A choice snippet from Robert Matthew-Walker's HAVERGAL BRIAN: Reminiscences and Observations (1995). It's 1973:

Leonard Bernstein returned for a Stravinsky concert and stayed at the Savoy. This time, I visited him at his suite, taking with me the score of the 'Gothic'. Bernstein has certainly heard of Brian and of the work, through - I think - my colleague Paul Myers [from the CBS record label], who was of course aware of my keenness for Brian's music. Bernstein spent about two hours studying the music in detail, humming a little and saying, "God, that's ----ing difficult!" at certain passages, but was thrilled at the closing pages of the Scherzo. When he had finished, he looked up and said, "Bob, I'd love to do the 'Gothic' but you know that my life is planned in detail for the next five years or so. If you can persuade Edinburgh or Salzburg or Vienna to want it, then I'll do it."

Alas.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 24, 2011, 08:37:36 AM
I've often wondered about Bernsteins 'interest' in the Gothic. Was it just a rumour? Where was the proof? Well,here it is! I love the bit with the expletive. So much for some of the snap reviews from some of the music critics. The first time I heard the choral movements I remember being very intrigued,but wondering if they were just some amorphous mess. The more I listened,the more compelling it became. It's such a vast,mind bogglingly complex piece. You really have to spend a bit of time getting to know it. Once you do it's actually chock full of lovely tunes! But that's me. Here's a famous conductor swearing over the complexity of it! The fact that it made him swear like that & he was prepared to spend two hours over it also means he presumably wasn't JUST being polite!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2011, 08:40:15 AM
Just to add:


Coincidentally, that tireless champion of the unusual in music, Edward Johnson, had sent Bernstein a score of the 'Gothic'; in a note of thanks, the conductor wrote of the music as "overwhelming".

Some background information about the author:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Matthew-Walker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Matthew-Walker)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 24, 2011, 10:23:14 AM
Please forgive me if this has already been posted. I've got a serious case of Gothicitis - I can't stop playing the 1st and 3rd movements and I just came across this on the web. By the way, is it just me that listens to the very opening of the Gothic and half expects the theme from Rawhide to break out?

http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/18/havergal-brian-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/

PS I've spent three weeks overseas with a daily does of HB on the MP3 player. I hadn't heard symphony 21 for the best part of 30 years. I love 10 but really didn't care for 21. I was wrong. It's really good isn't it?  Super performance as well - one of Pinkett's finest moments. Shame about the rocky start to the last movement but such is life. Needed a retake.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2011, 10:31:33 AM
Hi, John! Yes, the link has been here. Did you read his follow-up piece?


http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/23/havergal-brian-the-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms-a-few-more-thoughts/ (http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/23/havergal-brian-the-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms-a-few-more-thoughts/)


So you're getting the hang of late Brian, do you? And no 21 isn't even one of the strongest. I suggest you try 27 and 31, too, just to see what this late style can accomplish... Oh, and the Concerto for Orchestra is also very approachable...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 24, 2011, 10:56:06 AM
Good follow up piece. I like this man's views. The Gothic isn't a towering masterpiece but it's not a joke work to be ridiculed either. That's my stance. I like lots of it but the orchestral writing sometimes leaves a lot to desired - he obviously didn't really fully understand what the instruments are capable of, hence so many awkward passages that just don't lie under the fingers (A bit like Rach's string writing). Pity Norman Del Mar's definitive book on orchestration wasn't around at the time - a fabulous read. Putting all the technical rubbish to one side I enjoy the Gothic and also begin to warm to some of his other music. I still don't hear a wayward genius at work but I hear somebody capable of interesting ideas that don't always hang together. That will do me. I certainly prefer HB to that master of vertical blocks with no horizontal development whatsoever who is disliked by most of the pro musicians I have any contact with. I refer to the monumental bore that is Bruckner (yuk!!!). I will now put on a tin helmet and await the Brucknerian flak.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 24, 2011, 11:12:14 AM
Delighted with the news of the Gothic recording (thanks Colin and Johan) - I trust that the recording does not include the sound of my brother toppling off his shooting stick just before the concert started! Definitely on my Christmas list - and to think that I was there too (as with the Foulds 'World Requiem) is just wonderful.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 24, 2011, 11:19:37 AM
How many minutes/seconds in is the shooting stick incident? It could become as iconic as the fainting choir boy in the Schmidt performance? I shall listen out for it!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2011, 11:23:29 AM
John giveth and John taketh away... I love Bruckner, but perhaps he is boring to play!


Your level-headed view of Brian is okay with me. Although I do think he knew exactly what he was doing and was 'stretching' his orchestra, just as several innovators did before him. I think that if his idiom was better known, and there was a performance tradition, many (not all) of the 'awkwardnesses' would disappear.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 24, 2011, 11:31:00 AM
Incidentally,I was listening to Bruckner's Fifth,the other day. Music from Heaven. Sorry about that John.
The Gothic has it's purple moments,mainly in the first two movements & the orchestral interludes in the 'Judex'. But that's what I love about it! It's not just heaven storming,it's barn storming! Maybe a composer like Mahler would have refined the orchestration a little more,but then it wouldn't have been Brian anyway.
Can't wait for the Hyperion release!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 24, 2011, 11:37:32 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 24, 2011, 10:56:06 AMPity Norman Del Mar's definitive book on orchestration wasn't around at the time....

Thank god it wasn't. I wouldn't want my Brian any other way.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 24, 2011, 11:39:41 AM
Or Walter Piston!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 24, 2011, 11:40:49 AM
Not that there's anything wrong with Walter Piston!!!

Except maybe,in this thread.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 24, 2011, 11:51:27 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2011, 11:23:29 AM
John giveth and John taketh away... I love Bruckner, but perhaps he is boring to play!


Your level-headed view of Brian is okay with me. Although I do think he knew exactly what he was doing and was 'stretching' his orchestra, just as several innovators did before him. I think that if his idiom was better known, and there was a performance tradition, many (not all) of the 'awkwardnesses' would disappear.

I wish I could agree Johan - Stravinsky stretches orchestras but his technical writing is superb and he knew the orchestra intimately as did Debussy and Ravel. Britten, although I'm no fan, also knew exactly what to write. Rach's string writing has some dreadful awkward moments - he wrote for strings as if a violin was a piano and it doesn't work. The 1st movement of the Symphonic Dances has a couple of classic examples where the E and A strings have to be crossed at speed - easy on a piano but a nightmare on the fiddle. I'm a huge Tippett fan but in many ways he's also a talented amateur who sort of learned as he went along. Brian's awkwardness and roughness is part of his charm but I honestly think that this is due to his self taught compositional method and he didn't strectch the orchestra in the traditional sense. He wrote awkwardly for it because he didn't know enough about the instruments and what was possible. Sorry and all that but if you look at the scores and listen to what pro players think the problems are pretty clear. Anyway, who cares? Some of it sounds good anyway and maybe if he had been properly trained in orchestration the music could have been diminished. So there - anyway Arsenal have just started the 2nd half so I'm away......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 24, 2011, 11:52:44 AM
Bruckner? Give me strength. I'm going to take drink to get over the thought........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2011, 11:53:30 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 24, 2011, 11:52:44 AM
Bruckner? Give me strength. I'm going to take drink to get over the thought........


;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 24, 2011, 11:57:19 AM
The Gothic sounds pretty mind boggling to me!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 24, 2011, 12:05:35 PM
And what mind is completely boggle-resistant?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 24, 2011, 12:19:31 PM
Fascinating to learn of Bernstein's interest in the Gothic! Just imagine what impact his advocacy of the piece would have made on the musical world had he been able to conduct it somewhere or other :)

I am in ever-increasing awe of my good friend Johan's deep appreciation and understanding not only of the Gothic but of so much more of Brian's oeuvre. It really is quite remarkable how things come around since I still have in my possession a typewritten list of Brian's compositions compiled sometime in the middle 1960s by Malcolm MacDonald(probably while we were both still at school). I felt then and do rather feel now a tad inadequate in making any comments of my own about the music ;D

Nor am I a musician and am therefore totally and completely unqualified to make any constructive observations regarding John's analysis of Brian's orchestration or the handing of particular instruments by other composers.

What does however somewhat console me is that John himself does say "Anyway, who cares?" and, without in any way wishing to diminish the quality or force of those particular arguments, I am resolved to rest my own appreciation of the music on a simple, emotional response to the sound I hear ;D

Oh...and by the way...I love Bruckner too(and admire and respect-I think that is a more appropriate reaction-the music of Walter Piston) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 24, 2011, 12:27:09 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 24, 2011, 11:19:37 AM
How many minutes/seconds in is the shooting stick incident? It could become as iconic as the fainting choir boy in the Schmidt performance? I shall listen out for it!!!!

Actually it was a few minutes before the start so sadly (?) you wont here it I expect.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 24, 2011, 12:30:10 PM
I'm in the same boat. It sounds pretty good to me. I was obsessed by HB as a youngster. Everyone I met got to hear about him,whether they liked it or not! These days I've broadened out,but I still find the 'Gothic' enthralling,although my own favourite Brian work,if I had to pick one,is 'The Tigers'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 24, 2011, 12:31:25 PM
Not being too familiar with shooting sticks I would be expecting a loud bang!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 24, 2011, 12:39:52 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 24, 2011, 12:31:25 PM
Not being too familiar with shooting sticks I would be expecting a loud bang!

You sit on them....or in Jeffrey's brother's case, fall off them....rather than fire them ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 24, 2011, 12:47:35 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 24, 2011, 12:19:31 PM

What does however somewhat console me is that John himself does say "Anyway, who cares?" and, without in any way wishing to diminish the quality or force of those particular arguments, I am resolved to rest my own appreciation of the music on a simple, emotional response to the sound I hear ;D

Spot on my friend. Spot on. Who cares. Use your ears and either enjoy the sound or don't enjoy it. Music was written for people not for highly trained robots and critics. Emotion is what it's all about. In many ways I am cursed due to my upbringinging in orchestras and I end up listening to details and flaws instead of listening to the whole. I can't hear the woods for the damn trees but unfortunately I can't untrain my ears. I wish I could! To make things worse I have the dreaded affliction called perfect pitch so any intonation issues drive me up the wall. Maybe I will undergo some therapy or something. Maybe I will stop listening. Anyway Arsenal won and I had a nice bottle of Speckled Hen. Excellent.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2011, 12:48:28 PM
Colin flatters me. Yes, I do know my Brian and I think I understand him quite a bit. Malcolm MacDonald remains the unbeatable authority, though. John Grimshaw told me, at the Queens Arms pub, that they could phone Malcolm for the tiniest details of any Brian work. 'What exactly did Brian write in song x?' and he would know.


Another snippet from Matthew-Walker's book, which strengthens the 'Sussex connection' at work in 'The Gothic'. We know Brian connected the Third English Suite with the Sussex Downs and 'The Gothic' with 'freshly-ploughed fields'. Here is another detail, which shows you how personal this work is:


Jim Fuller [a friend of RMW's] had attended the Boult performance of the 'Gothic' the previous year and asked Brian about the use of the birdscare in that score. Brian said the birdscare was introduced as a memory of his younger years in Sussex, of early morning walks over the Downs.

Btw, there is an 'accident' during the Brabbins performance, of course: at the end of the Vivace, a musician (trombonist? I forget)  dropped his mute.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 24, 2011, 01:00:40 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2011, 12:48:28 PM
Colin flatters me. Yes, I do know my Brian and I think I understand him quite a bit. Malcolm MacDonald remains the unbeatable authority, though. John Grimshaw told me, at the Queens Arms pub, that they could phone Malcolm for the tiniest details of any Brian work. 'What exactly did Brian write in song x?' and he would know.

Btw, there is an 'accident' during the Brabbins performance, of course: at the end of the Vivace, a musician (trombonist? I forget)  dropped his mute.

The mute being dropped/kicked over is very loud but Hyperion will get rid of it Johan. Pas de problem. There are also a couple of trumpet fluffs and some les than immaculate wind entries but again these are minimal. Correcting the choirs will be the biggest issue for the engineers. Overall it was one hell of an achievement as it should of been with BBC orchestras at the heart of it all. I really enjoy the Brisbane performance but the playing is nowhere near as polished. Chalk and cheese.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2011, 01:07:31 PM
I hope they can both remove the organ support and get the choirs pitch-perfect. During the dress rehearsal they didn't lose pitch, so there, perhaps, is the solution...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 24, 2011, 01:11:06 PM
I am grateful to John for his generous response to what I feared might be interpreted as criticism of a musician's analysis of Brian's music :)

Johan reminds me of the passage in Malcolm's Volume III of the study of the symphonies in which he discusses HB's response to the landscapes, particularly, of his youth(pages 234-235).

I have always found the evocation of landscape in music-whether intended by the composer or the listener's own perception of the possible influence landscape had on a composer-extremely potent. I realise that for many listeners this may mean little or nothing but I know, for certain, that my own love of so much of Scandinavian music is my perception that the music conjures up in my mind the dark forests of the North or the craggy mountains and fantastic fjord landscape of Norway. When I listen to Tapiola, for example, that is what I hear. And that so-called 'English' sound(yes, Elizabeth Lutyen's derogatory 'cowpat school' comment) does also evoke a deep response to a particular landscape.

I know that such images 'help' me and enrich my appreciation and love of music.....so I am sticking with them ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 24, 2011, 01:21:31 PM
I don't think that was a trombone mute at the end of the Vivace - it was directly over to my left, in the arena, a few rows in front of the first violins. Someone dropped their car keys or something!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2011, 01:29:53 PM
Quote from: Luke on August 24, 2011, 01:21:31 PM
I don't think that was a trombone mute at the end of the Vivace - it was directly over to my left, in the arena, a few rows in front of the first violins. Someone dropped their car keys or something!


You could be right. The sound is rather metallic... !
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 24, 2011, 01:51:10 PM
I wrote an enthusiastic letter to Gwydion Brooke,some years ago,after hearing some of his fathers music,(Holbrooke was,as you will know,a friend of Brian). In the letter I moaned about the neglect of certain composers,in the course of which I defended the symphonies of Arnold Bax. I can't remember exactly what I said,but Gwydion Brooke thanked me for my interest in his fathers music & told me that one of the good things about not being a musician or a composer,was that you could enjoy  music for it's own sake,instead of analysing it and worrying about the construction of it.
To my suprise he also sent me a free Lp of Holbrooke's music which he had released on his own record label.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 24, 2011, 02:01:44 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 24, 2011, 01:51:10 PM
I wrote an enthusiastic letter to Gwydion Brooke,some years ago,after hearing some of his fathers music,(Holbrooke was,as you will know,a friend of Brian). In the letter I moaned about the neglect of certain composers,in the course of which I defended the symphonies of Arnold Bax. I can't remember exactly what I said,but Gwydion Brooke thanked me for my interst in his fathers music & told me that one of the good things about not being a musician or a composer,was that you could enjoy  music for it's own sake,instead of analysing it and worrying about the construction of it.
To my suprise he also sent me a free Lp of Holbrooke's music which he had released on his own record label.

I have said this before (but never mind ;D), I would love to be able to read music and appreciate its construction, orchestration etc etc. but I don't and therefore, largely, can't.
There is just not enough time left in life to do ALL the things I would like to be able to do ;D

.....but your point is well made :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2011, 02:06:37 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 24, 2011, 02:01:44 PM
I have said this before (but never mind ;D ), I would love to be able to read music and appreciate its construction, orchestration etc etc. but I don't and therefore, largely, can't.
There is just not enough time left in life to do ALL the things I would like to be able to do ;D

.....but your point is well made :)


Teaching yourself to follow along with a score isn't that difficult. The understanding you gain is immense. You can see the things happening on the page and hear them simultaneously, like a play. You start to notice a lot more detail. I love scores! But, as you say, life is short and there are so many things you can do!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 24, 2011, 02:11:59 PM
Of course,there is always the possibility that GB was just trying to cheer me up!!!!
As to learning to read a score.When I was young I always dreamed about being a composer. Unfortunately,all I did was hide when it was time for my 'dreaded' piano lesson!
Trying to write novels and paint is tough enough,let alone trying to learn/do something else. I think I'd be dragged off on a stretcher,or worse!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 24, 2011, 02:21:13 PM
I remember trying to learn,years ago. I was told that concerto's are a good way to start. You simply follow the line of the instrument (a Violin was recommended) up and down as you listen,then gradually take in some others. Maybe 'easy ones' like percussion. I have a copy of Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto & Ravel's Bolero somewhere,which I thought would,for obvious reasons,be fairly easy to follow.
At the opposite extreme,I remember Robert Simpson saying that 'Opus Clavecembalisticum' (hope I got THAT right!) took him years to get to grips with.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 25, 2011, 07:14:21 AM
I just saw on Twitter that the score of 'The Gothic' is available for download from ISMLP, but only in the USA. The work isn't out of copyright elsewhere...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on August 25, 2011, 07:20:35 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 25, 2011, 07:14:21 AM
I just saw on Twitter that the score of 'The Gothic' is available for download from ISMLP, but only in the USA. The work isn't out of copyright elsewhere...

I can verify that it is downloadable from the USA at this link (http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.1_%28Brian,_Havergal%29). Each movement is a separate PDF file - otherwise the full score would have been a single 45 megabyte document!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 25, 2011, 07:26:23 AM
Thanks for the verification, Brian! Speaking of links - the one below your excellent Musicweb article about 'The Gothic' and the critics, doesn't bring you to the two 'Gothic' pieces on your blog, but only to the blog itself, which has obviously moved on quite a bit...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 25, 2011, 07:31:23 AM
Very cool!  Kind of a sad footnote to the Brian saga, that copyright for the piece was not registered in the US . . . but, as I am a beneficiary of the snarl in the red tape . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on August 25, 2011, 05:56:13 PM
I'm afraid that in a way, my researches are responsible for the IMSLP having gone to the effort of uploading the files of the Gothic. Recently several websites – Google, archive.org, HathiTrust, and the University of Pennsylvania – have begun to make the United States Catalog of Copyright Entries available on-line, and I have been trawling through these to confirm the publication dates of Brian's works, since before 1963 it was necessary to register and confirm the renewal of copyright in order to obtain the 56-year duration of copyright protection in the US, as it was then (the term has been subsequently lengthened by degrees up to 75 years, and then to 95 years).

It soon became apparent that the Gothic was not registered upon publication in 1932, although Cranz had gone to the effort of registering The Tigers, which was published almost contemporaneously (with almost the exact same plate number, minus one). Registration could be made at any time up until the end of the first 28-year period of the copyright term when renewal was required to prevent the work from entering the public domain naturally; and only the non-availability of the 1960/1961 volumes prevented making sure that this had not happened, since there were no signs of an initial registration of the Gothic in the records from 1927 to 1959.

Now the mere fact of mentioning my suspicion that the Gothic had never been registered and probably not renewed at the 28-year mark had the effect of galvanising the IMSLP contributors in the United States, who have gone searching the music registration and renewal volumes more thoroughly than I could have managed, even with access to many of the volumes of copyright registrations online. It seems that the Gothic has been in the public domain in the US since 1961 when the 28-year term expired, irrespective of its status elsewhere in the world.

In the 1990s, many changes to the US Copyright Act occurred, especially to inject a number of public domain works back under copyright protection, thanks to the Uruguay Round of talks and amendments to the GATT treaty: for example, in Soviet Russia, any works published by the state publisher Muzyka were in the public domain, and had been freely reprinted by Kalmus, Dover, etc. Numerous Shostakovich and Prokofiev pieces that had been public domain were re-copyrighted between 1994 and 1996 with the filing of a Notice of Intent to Enforce (NIE) by the copyright holders. No NIE was made to protect the Gothic's status under US law. So the Gothic could be re-copyrighted in the United States by the filing of a NIE notice (the copyright records since the 1980s have been made electronic, so it is easily discovered there has been no filing of a NIE notice for the Gothic), however case law seems to suggest that there was only a two-year window for GATT restorations to occur, and a NIE notice filed now would be powerless. As I am not a lawyer, I am merely summarising the views of several high-powered figures in US publishing, but the consensus seems to be that Cranz dropped the ball w.r.t. to the US. Everywhere except the US, of course, the work is still under 50 or 70 year terms post-Brian's decease in 1972, which will tie the work up until 2023/2043.

Thanks for the citation of Bernstein's interest in the Gothic: he is one of a number of famous conductors who no doubt would have given the work greater lustre (the failed attempts by Hamilton Harty and Goossens to obtain a performance in the 1930s are already well-known).

Cheers, Philip
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 25, 2011, 09:52:07 PM
Thanks, Philip, for that Brian Post of the Month! Very illuminating.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on August 25, 2011, 11:58:46 PM
Actually, I believe the announcement that Hyperion are going to rush release the Brabbins Gothic would have to be much the stronger contender for post of the month. That's tremendously exciting news, and they (perhaps unfortunately) get the benefit of beating to the punch all other possibilities for a new recording to hit the market: both last year's Brisbane performance, or the surely long-overdue issuing of the Schmidt/LSO Gothic, would also be worthy additions, the latter of which has a highly idiosyncratic version of the Tenor aria, and my favourite reading of the Bass aria Dignare Domine, by the wonderful David Thomas (well-known as an early music stalwart). I hope that some of the balance and noise issues are addressed in the haste to get the discs out.

Regarding the Cranz full score's status in the US: in case it wasn't clear, the old 56-year-term of copyright used to be in two halves of 28+28 years: before 1964, the renewal was a necessary step to obtain the second part of the full term. This division of the copyright term into two halves was there from the beginning of the republic: during George Washington's presidency, copyright terms were set as 14+14 years (1790); in the early 19th century they were increased to 28+14 (1831), and then 28+28 in the early 20th century (1909). Between 1962 and 1974 there were a set of arbitrary increases to prevent some 1920s works from falling into the public domain, until in 1976 the default term was lengthened to 28+47 (= 75). Copyrights since 1978 are now following the life+70 years rule (like e.g. the European Union), but the old copyright claims prior to 1978 were increased in 1998 (owing to Sonny Bono) to be 28+67 years (total, 95 years). So if Cranz hadn't dropped the ball, the Gothic would have had another 16½ years of protection in the US, but arguably the US re-publishers like Kalmus or Dover could have had their wicked way with the score since the 1960s. It's quite surprising that no one's noticed the registration/renewal failure in the past 50 years, but the US laws are a complete mess, so perhaps it's not that surprising at all!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 26, 2011, 01:14:39 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 24, 2011, 12:39:52 PM
You sit on them....or in Jeffrey's brother's case, fall off them....rather than fire them ;D

hehe  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 01:32:56 AM
Just a few thoughts referring back to some posts a page or two ago about the difficulty or otherwise of HB's writing, for the orchestral player, I mean, not the listener.

There's no doubt, of course, that Brian can write some bloody hard, and also awkward stuff. I would not dispute that (and it's the awkward rather than the hard which leaves players unimpressed, I think). What I would say is that complaints about it, and implications that it is amateurish in some ways seem to me misplaced. What we have is a composer who is seen by most outside the small Brianite community as something of an amateur; he is regarded with a default setting of scepticism-set-to-11 by critics and listeners. And particularly by the orchestral players who have no choice but to play the stuff, of course (but don't get me started on orchestral players and their scepticism!). John mentions Tippett as another composer with this sort of 'amateurish' orchestration. But let's remember the story of the premiere of his 2nd Symphony. The concert master rebows and renotates much of the music, thinking he knows better than Tippett, and the premiere falls apart, infamously. But when Tippett's own indications are followed, the piece works beautifully. It was too much for the orchestral players at the time, but they caught up in the end. The proof is in the results - Brian's pieces sound as he intended, and so do Tippett's. They are, therefore, well-orchestrated.

But that isn't what I meant to say (it's just a topic that gets me a bit riled!). What I meant to say was that Brian (and Tippett - no coincidence these are two of my favourite composers) both started from this same position of being considered an amateur. Tippett escaped it more quickly, though he is still looked at with disdain by some who would rather snipe than admit the power and bravery of his music. It has taken longer for Brian, for all the largely-biographical reasons that we know. One 'amateur' composer who 'made it' much more quickly than both of these was Elgar. Amongst other thing he is today seen as one of the most professional of orchestrators from his period, scintialling and powerful at his best, and capable of great refinement and complexity too. We trust him, in other words. He doesn't make mistakes. And then yesterday I was looking at the score of In the South (thanks to the Elgar thread) and, lo and behold, from my cellist's viewpoint the thing is totally zany. I've rarely seen orchestral cello writing like it, certainly not from that date. It is foolish, too difficult for the effect intended....and yet, of course, it works, and brilliantly. If I'd never heard of Elgar, I would say about him, on this evidence, what John said of Brian - that he doesn't understand the capabilities of the instruments, that there is something amateur about his orchestral writing. But this is Elgar. I trust him, I defer to his judgement. I would never say those things about Elgar. And orchestral players trust him in the same way. No scepticism where Elgar is concerned, not about this side of things anyway. If Brian's reputation reaches a similar point, people will feel the same way about him. I'm sure I could have made this post shorter, however. It's not as if I'm saying something very complex!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 01:33:27 AM
Can somebody clarify the copyright issue for the Gothic score download from the USA link that Johan posted on here? I live in the UK so if I download and save the pdfs will I get chased by the internet police or taken to the local nick? I really don't fancy prison food so what am I allowd to do and what is the risk here? Maybe a USA Brian forum member can download them (legally?) and then share them via Mediafire? I would like to have a proper look at the piece. I used to have a hand written score for the 23rd Psalm obtained from the LSSO Brighton session for CBS but can't find it. I fear it was dumped during a house move or maybe I sent it to Nigel Pinkett. If I manage to find it I will scan and share.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 01:38:47 AM
I consider myself very lucky! When I was 14 I fell for the Gothic in a big way, and just somehow, for some reason, there was the score on display in the local music shop (in Leicester, the one round the corner from Prebend Street where it was in prime position for the LSSO, John - I used to go in there all the time!). And it was only 30 pounds. It was a happy Christmas that year... That battered, green, Sellotaped-together score is one of my real treasures now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 01:39:06 AM
This is what you see when you click on a link. I haven't proceeded further, keeping my Brian-love in check...




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Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 01:40:25 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 26, 2011, 01:32:56 AM
If Brian's reputation reaches a similar point, people will feel the same way about him. I'm sure I could have made this post shorter, however. It's not as if I'm saying something very complex!


Still, thank you for giving an alternative inside view.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 01:42:45 AM
What is it with me and my lack of concision...?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 01:44:31 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 26, 2011, 01:42:45 AM
What is it with me and my lack of concision...?


Seeing someone on his way to his point and then making it - nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 26, 2011, 01:47:42 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 26, 2011, 01:32:56 AM
Just a few thoughts referring back to some posts a page or two ago about the difficulty or otherwise of HB's writing, for the orchestral player, I mean, not the listener.

There's no doubt, of course, that Brian can write some bloody hard, and also awkward stuff. I would not dispute that (and it's the awkward rather than the hard which leaves players unimpressed, I think). What I would say is that complaints about it, and implications that it is amateurish in some ways seem to me misplaced. What we have is a composer who is seen by most outside the small Brianite community as something of an amateur; he is regarded with a default setting of scepticism-set-to-11 by critics and listeners. And particularly by the orchestral players who have no choice but to play the stuff, of course (but don't get me started on orchestral players and their scepticism!). John mentions Tippett as another composer with this sort of 'amateurish' orchestration. But let's remember the story of the premiere of his 2nd Symphony. The concert master rebows and renotates much of the music, thinking he knows better than Tippett, and the premiere falls apart, infamously. But when Tippett's own indications are followed, the piece works beautifully. It was too much for the orchestral players at the time, but they caught up in the end. The proof is in the results - Brian's pieces sound as he intended, and so do Tippett's. They are, therefore, well-orchestrated.

But that isn't what I meant to say (it's just a topic that gets me a bit riled!). What I meant to say was that Brian (and Tippett - no coincidence these are two of my favourite composers) both started from this same position of being considered an amateur. Tippett escaped it more quickly, though he is still looked at with disdain by some who would rather snipe than admit the power and bravery of his music. It has taken longer for Brian, for all the largely-biographical reasons that we know. One 'amateur' composer who 'made it' much more quickly than both of these was Elgar. Amongst other thing he is today seen as one of the most professional of orchestrators from his period, scintialling and powerful at his best, and capable of great refinement and complexity too. We trust him, in other words. He doesn't make mistakes. And then yesterday I was looking at the score of In the South (thanks to the Elgar thread) and, lo and behold, from my cellist's viewpoint the thing is totally zany. I've rarely seen orchestral cello writing like it, certainly not from that date. It is foolish, too difficult for the effect intended....and yet, of course, it works, and brilliantly. If I'd never heard of Elgar, I would say about him, on this evidence, what John said of Brian - that he doesn't understand the capabilities of the instruments, that there is something amateur about his orchestral writing. But this is Elgar. I trust him, I defer to his judgement. I would never say those things about Elgar. And orchestral players trust him in the same way. No scepticism where Elgar is concerned, not about this side of things anyway. If Brian's reputation reaches a similar point, people will feel the same way about him. I'm sure I could have made this post shorter, however. It's not as if I'm saying something very complex!
You know, I agree with you entirely about this 'amateur' thing. Usually, when I see that sort of comment (amateur), its is simply one way of putting a composer down. More often than not, it simply highlights the ignorance of the speaker. It is one thing to criticize and analyze orchestration and come to the conclusion that a certain combination doesn't work. It is entirely another to take dismiss the output or work of that composer as a whole. Even the best composers have some really odd ideas, and not all of them work, but isn't that how they (as composers) and we (as listeners) grow?

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 01:56:24 AM
Well, here's another of those the-composer-must-have-been-an-amateur mistakes I spotted a few days ago. A double-stopped open G-middle C on the violin. The composer? That clodding know-nothing Claude Debussy. And that isn't just difficult, it is positively impossible. Saulian, in fact. Not sure that this relates to my point about Brian, now, in any but a slight way, however - that to judge a composer's capabilities on a few oddities, awkwardnesses or even mistakes is not entirely fair.

Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 26, 2011, 01:47:42 AM
You know, I agree with you entirely about this 'amateur' thing. Usually, when I see that sort of comment (amateur), its is simply one way of putting a composer down. More often than not, it simply highlights the ignorance of the speaker. It is one thing to criticize and analyze orchestration and come to the conclusion that a certain combination doesn't work. It is entirely another to take dismiss the output or work of that composer as a whole. Even the best composers have some really odd ideas, and not all of them work, but isn't that how they (as composers) and we (as listeners) grow?

There is also, unsurprisingly, a kind of Impress Me. Prove It culture among some orchestral players faced with a new score by a little-known composer, for all sorts of understandable reasons. A peculiarity which would be accepted and trusted in a work by an established composer can often be scoffed at when the source isn't trusted. I've seen this as a player and, on the other end, as a composer. I wrote things which I knew would work, but on a couple of ocassions the players told me 'no way, can't do that'. I only write what I know can be played, and anything slightly unusual is mostly for the instruments I play myself, so I was able to sit down and actually show them what I meant. And in the end I was right, it was always playable, and always sounded as I had wanted. But it just made the journey to the premieres harder, that lack of trust.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 01:59:05 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 26, 2011, 01:32:56 AM
Just a few thoughts referring back to some posts a page or two ago about the difficulty or otherwise of HB's writing, for the orchestral player, I mean, not the listener.

There's no doubt, of course, that Brian can write some bloody hard, and also awkward stuff. I would not dispute that (and it's the awkward rather than the hard which leaves players unimpressed, I think). What I would say is that complaints about it, and implications that it is amateurish in some ways seem to me misplaced. What we have is a composer who is seen by most outside the small Brianite community as something of an amateur; he is regarded with a default setting of scepticism-set-to-11 by critics and listeners. And particularly by the orchestral players who have no choice but to play the stuff, of course (but don't get me started on orchestral players and their scepticism!). John mentions Tippett as another composer with this sort of 'amateurish' orchestration. But let's remember the story of the premiere of his 2nd Symphony. The concert master rebows and renotates much of the music, thinking he knows better than Tippett, and the premiere falls apart, infamously. But when Tippett's own indications are followed, the piece works beautifully. It was too much for the orchestral players at the time, but they caught up in the end. The proof is in the results - Brian's pieces sound as he intended, and so do Tippett's. They are, therefore, well-orchestrated.

But that isn't what I meant to say (it's just a topic that gets me a bit riled!). What I meant to say was that Brian (and Tippett - no coincidence these are two of my favourite composers) both started from this same position of being considered an amateur. Tippett escaped it more quickly, though he is still looked at with disdain by some who would rather snipe than admit the power and bravery of his music. It has taken longer for Brian, for all the largely-biographical reasons that we know. One 'amateur' composer who 'made it' much more quickly than both of these was Elgar. Amongst other thing he is today seen as one of the most professional of orchestrators from his period, scintialling and powerful at his best, and capable of great refinement and complexity too. We trust him, in other words. He doesn't make mistakes. And then yesterday I was looking at the score of In the South (thanks to the Elgar thread) and, lo and behold, from my cellist's viewpoint the thing is totally zany. I've rarely seen orchestral cello writing like it, certainly not from that date. It is foolish, too difficult for the effect intended....and yet, of course, it works, and brilliantly. If I'd never heard of Elgar, I would say about him, on this evidence, what John said of Brian - that he doesn't understand the capabilities of the instruments, that there is something amateur about his orchestral writing. But this is Elgar. I trust him, I defer to his judgement. I would never say those things about Elgar. And orchestral players trust him in the same way. No scepticism where Elgar is concerned, not about this side of things anyway. If Brian's reputation reaches a similar point, people will feel the same way about him. I'm sure I could have made this post shorter, however. It's not as if I'm saying something very complex!
Great post. Most of Brian isn't difficult to play. It's pretty straight forward and dare I say old fashioned. There's nothing very experimental, no quarter tones, no Ivesian cross rhythms, no 12 tone rows etc etc. It's just the bits that don't physically sit properly with the instruments that annoy the pros. It's not just Brian though. The infamous low oboe entry in Vltava is one of the horrors of the score. I'm not comparing Smetana with Brian just making the point that many scores have dodgy bits in them. I think that Tippett 2 failed due to poor conducting and lack of rehearsal time rather than the messing with bowings but I may be wrong. Tippett was a wonderful man but he did make things up on the hoof. As much as I admire the Shires Suite the fact of the matter is that during first rehearsals we had to work from hand written parts with poor page turns and peculiar bowings. These were changed along the route by Michael himself but also by Eric Pinkett and Norman Del Mar. As a pro horn player (sitting next to Dennis Brain in the RPO) Norman also made mods to the horn writing. Michael welcomed input like this. He wasn't a professional orchestral player and was open to making  changes. Tchaikovsky also took advice on the solo part for his fiddle concerto for the simple reason that he wasn't a violinist ditto Malcolm Arnold consulted Bream when writing his guitar concerto. I believe that Tippett was a visionary and I love many of his pieces. From my own personal dealings with him I must conclude that he was a superb educator and communicator but his actual skills in committing his ideas to paper to make the music actually work from a nuts and bolts perspective left a lot to be desired. As I said in a previous post "who cares". It all sounds OK in general terms. Had Brian been in a position to try his music out in front of orchestras on a regular basis I feel that he would have improved his craft as did Michael. The lack of craft makes some people sneer. Not me I hasten to add. Mendelssohn was a master craftsman but I don't care much for his music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 02:06:28 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 26, 2011, 01:38:47 AM
I consider myself very lucky! When I was 14 I fell for the Gothic in a big way, and just somehow, for some reason, there was the score on display in the local music shop (in Leicester, the one round the corner from Prebend Street where it was in prime position for the LSSO, John - I used to go in there all the time!). And it was only 30 pounds. It was a happy Christmas that year... That battered, green, Sellotaped-together score is one of my real treasures now.

I fell for the 10th in a big way. Wonderful piece. Hated the 21st (but not now). Purchased all the Martco Polo CDs and disliked the majority of them!! Bought the Hyperion 3rd and hated it (Maida Vale I think - oh dear). Recently got hold of the Hull recordings (oh dear again). As a Leicestershire man I sort of feel that it's my duty to support HB but there's still - to my ears - too much going on that I don't care for. The Proms Gothic blew me away. Loved it. Also enjoy Psalm 23 and the fiddle concerto (up to a point). I hope that I have a balanced view to Brian. He's not a hero of mine but I detest all the smart people who dismiss the man. He should be given some respect. Had Sibelius only written Tapoiola I would have called him a great composer. Brian 10 and parts of the Gothic certainly prove beyond doubt (to me at any rate) that Brian is indeed a very good composer. Is this fair comment? I hope so. Not been to Leicester for years except for the odd trip to watch City play and a couple of LSSO concerts. I'm now marooned in Delph in the foothills of the Pennines.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 02:08:50 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 01:59:05 AM
Great post. Most of Brian isn't difficult to play. It's pretty straight forward and dare I say old fashioned. There's nothing very experimental, no quarter tones, no Ivesian cross rhythms, no 12 tone rows etc etc. It's just the bits that don't physically sit properly with the instruments that annoy the pros. It's not just Brian though. The infamous low oboe entry in Vltava is one of the horrors of the score. I'm not comparing Smetana with Brian just making the point that many scores have dodgy bits in them. I think that Tippett 2 failed due to poor conducting and lack of rehearsal time rather than the messing with bowings but I may be wrong. Tippett was a wonderful man but he did make things up on the hoof. As much as I admire the Shires Suite the fact of the matter is that during first rehearsals we had to work from hand written parts with poor page turns and peculiar bowings. These were changed along the route by Michael himself but also by Eric Pinkett and Norman Del Mar. As a pro horn player (sitting next to Dennis Brain in the RPO) Norman also made mods to the horn writing. Michael welcomed input like this. He wasn't a professional orchestral player and was open to making  changes. Tchaikovsky also took advice on the solo part for his fiddle concerto for the simple reason that he wasn't a violinist ditto Malcolm Arnold consulted Bream when writing his guitar concerto. I believe that Tippett was a visionary and I love many of his pieces. From my own personal dealings with him I must conclude that he was a superb educator and communicator but his actual skills in committing his ideas to paper to make the music actually work from a nuts and bolts perspective left a lot to be desired. As I said in a previous post "who cares". It all sounds OK in general terms. Had Brian been in a position to try his music out in front of orchestras on a regular basis I feel that he would have improved his craft as did Michael. The lack of craft makes some people sneer. Not me I hasten to add. Mendelssohn was a master craftsman but I don't care much for his music.

I agree with every word of this, unsurprisingly. I think it is the distinction between supposed amateur and supposed craftsman which gets me sniffing round - the implication always being that the latter is superior to the former. I just don't buy this - your Mendelssohn point is a good one here. There is certainly much of what you describe in Tippett's writing, for instance - his ideas spill onto the paper and can need much work from this point in order to be ''made real' in performance. But as I thought that I was thinking of that piggingly hard quartet the 4th...which immediately made me think of its partial model, Beethoven's op 133. And there we have it - in that piece and in other late Beethoven pieces we have this craggy, white-hot thought, pouring onto the paper with little thought about playability. Cranky, peculiar notations, awkwardness as awkward as awkward gets. But it's Beethoven. Amateur? I think not.

(And just as a side note, I find that little trio - Beethoven, Brian, Tippett - make for interesting comparison)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 02:10:08 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 02:06:28 AM
I fell for the 10th in a big way. Wonderful piece. Hated the 21st (but not now). Purchased all the Martco Polo CDs I could get hold of and disliked the majority of them!! Bought the Hyperion 3rd and hated it 9. As a Leicestershire man I sort of feel that it's my duty to support HB but there's still - to my ears - too much going on that I don't care for. The Proms Gothic blew me away. Loved it. Not been to Leicester for years except for the odd trip to watch City play.

My own favourites are still 6-10, and 8 above all. IMO one of the very, very finest symphonies of the century. Have you heard it yet?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 02:15:07 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 26, 2011, 02:08:50 AM
(And just as a side note, I find that little trio - Beethoven, Brian, Tippett - make for interesting comparison)


That reminds me of something I thought the other day - 'The Gothic' is always compared with Beethoven's Ninth. But there is another connection to these ears - the Missa Solemnis. The apocalyptic outbursts at the end of the Te Deum are Amériques crossed with the explosion in the final movement of the Missa, 'Agnus Dei', where war and peace are battling it out, too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 02:16:43 AM
A very interesting thought, Johan. I hadn't considered this before.

WRT some of the above posts I ought to mention, for those somehow unaware of it, that my own favourite composer, if I had to choose, is Janacek. The most amateur of them all, his music full of unplayabilities and areas which need carefully rebalancing. Maybe that it is just that this kind of white-hot, craggy music appeals to me on a deep level...lthough more or less neck-and-neck with Janacek comes Ravel, his polar opposite, it would seem, in many ways. So who knows!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 02:20:27 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 26, 2011, 02:10:08 AM
My own favourites are still 6-10, and 8 above all. IMO one of the very, very finest symphonies of the century. Have you heard it yet?
Yes I've got the 8th. Tried it numerous times. Will try again - does nothing for me. I will put it on straight away. When I have issues with music I always put a Nielsen symphony on the CD player. Now THERE'S  a composer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 02:22:57 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 02:20:27 AM
Yes I've got the 8th. Tried it numerous times. Will try again - does nothing for me. I will put it on straight away. When I have issues with music I always put a Nielsen symphony on the CD player. Now THERE'S  a composer.


I think you prefer orchestral music with clean and clear lines, John. One of your other favourites is Frankel, who is transparency itself.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 02:26:13 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 26, 2011, 01:56:24 AM
Well, here's another of those the-composer-must-have-been-an-amateur mistakes I spotted a few days ago. A double-stopped open G-middle C on the violin. The composer? That clodding know-nothing Claude Debussy. And that isn't just difficult, it is positively impossible. Saulian, in fact. Not sure that this relates to my point about Brian, now, in any but a slight way, however - that to judge a composer's capabilities on a few oddities, awkwardnesses or even mistakes is not entirely fair.
You are kidding aren't you? Transpose the C up to D and the job's a good 'un. The fleeting tonal clash might sound good. Is this a Kalmus edition by any chance? Debussy must be dismissed immediately. I will throw my 12 recordings of La Mer in the bin. Utter garbage.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 02:27:52 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 02:15:07 AM

That reminds me of something I thought the other day - 'The Gothic' is always compared with Beethoven's Ninth. But there is another connection to these ears - the Missa Solemnis. The apocalyptic outbursts at the end of the Te Deum are Amériques crossed with the explosion in the final movement of the Missa, 'Agnus Dei', where war and peace are battling it out, too.

I'm going to make Johan's day. I find the Missa Solemnis a crashing bore. The Gothic is much better.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 02:30:14 AM
I find the 8th marvellously transparent, myself, more than its companions. It's more like late HB in that respect, but with the most amazing colour and fantasy and teeming complexity like many of the earlier works. Perhaps that is part of why I love it so much - it is echt-Brian. But I also think it is a most radically reductive work, pure symphonism of the highest quality, nothing more.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 02:32:12 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 02:26:13 AM
You are kidding aren't you? Transpose the C up to D and the job's a good 'un. The fleeting tonal clash might sound good. Is this a Kalmus edition by any chance? Debussy must be dismissed immediately. I will throw my 12 recordings of La Mer in the bin. Utter garbage.

;D   No, it's no misprint. In fact, there is an editor's note which says, effectively 'choose the one you like best'!

It is early Debussy (the piano trio) but that is no excuse.  >:(  $:)


;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 02:32:36 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 02:27:52 AM
I'm going to make Johan's day. I find the Missa Solemnis a crashing bore. The Gothic is much better.


You aren't...  ;D The Missa is extraordinary.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 02:36:32 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 02:22:57 AM

I think you prefer orchestral music with clean and clear lines, John. One of your other favourites is Frankel, who is transparency itself.

Quite right and very astute Johan. I don't care for clutter or too many notes for the sake of it. Maybe that's why my favourite Sibelius symphony is No.6. I love Janacek, especially the quartets. Love Bliss. Find Bax a bit of a bore. Admire Britten but don't much care much for the music (if you see what I mean). Frankel is very clear indeed. Detest Khachaturian. Above all - Mozart - he WAS good. Gradually becoming more attracted to that old amateur from the potteries who's name escapes me for the moment. We need a film called "Life of Brian" to further boost his reputation.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 02:40:53 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 02:32:36 AM

You aren't...  ;D The Missa is extraordinary.

I'll give it another try straight after the HB 8th. I have the Klemperer knocking around somewhere - it probably runds for around 4 hours.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 02:44:27 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 02:40:53 AM
I'll give it another try straight after the HB 8th. I have the Klemperer knocking around somewhere - it probably runds for around 4 hours.


The Klemperer is awe-inspiring. I have always regarded Beethoven as almost superhuman in this work, just as Shakespeare is at his strongest.


But that's me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 02:46:15 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 02:36:32 AM
Quite right and very astute Johan. I don't care for clutter or too many notes for the sake of it. Maybe that's why my favourite Sibelius symphony is No.6. I love Janacek, especially the quartets. Love Bliss. Find Bax a bit of a bore. Admire Britten but don't much care much for the music (if you see what I mean). Frankel is very clear indeed. Detest Khachaturian. Above all - Mozart - he WAS good. Gradually becoming more attracted to that old amateur from the potteries who's name escapes me for the moment. We need a film called "Life of Brian" to further boost his reputation.

As in

(http://images.rottentomatoes.com/images/movie/gallery/1014194/photo_10.jpg)
'It's not The Messiah, it's Havergal Brian's 4th symphony'

?

I find the inclusion of Khachaturian on that list a bit peculiar, merely because so many other vastly more important composers aren't there at all . Still, I suppose if you feel so strongly about him he needs to be mentioned.

As I said above, I can't make head or tail of my own deepest preferences - there is the 'amateur' side of things, the Janacek and Tippett and Brian and late Beethoven and Satie and even Cage side. And there is the 'craftsman' side, Ravel, Bach, Mozart, Britten... And then there are those in between, Enescu, so scrupulously precise and yet so earthy; Brahms, so inexorably perfect but so profoundly passionate; Chopin, who swung between the refinement of the salon and the roughness of the fields...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 03:03:30 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 26, 2011, 02:46:15 AM
I find the inclusion of Khachaturian on that list a bit peculiar, merely because so many other vastly more important composers aren't there at all . Still, I suppose if you feel so strongly about him he needs to be mentioned.

I just go red with embarrassment when I listen to Khachaturian. It sounds so banal.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 03:05:01 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 26, 2011, 01:42:45 AM
What is it with me and my lack of concision...?

Why, that post is the very model of concision. What are you on about, lad? ; )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 03:20:32 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 26, 2011, 01:56:24 AM
. . . Saulian, in fact.

Oh, harshest of charges! : )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 03:28:21 AM
Well, for some fleeting seriousness, casting aside the drive-bys . . . the discussion of professional VS. amateur very interesting and one which really invites un-packing. I mean, consider Milhaud: an exemplary professional, and so damned what? A good many of his inarguably professional scores strike me as work-a-day, paint-by-numbers . . . music which says "Who cares if you listen?" more thoroughly than anything I've heard of Babbitt's.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 03:48:36 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 26, 2011, 03:20:32 AM
Oh, harshest of charges! : )

But accurate.  ;)  Why, did not our Saul make that very same inspired mistake in his own wondrous scores?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 03:53:29 AM
Just to clarify this point
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 01:59:05 AM
I think that Tippett 2 failed due to poor conducting and lack of rehearsal time rather than the messing with bowings but I may be wrong.

Quote from: All Music GuideAt the premiere of Tippett's Symphony No. 2, in London's Royal Festival Hall in February 1958, the performance broke down after the first few pages. The conductor, Adrian Boult, took the blame, but the real problem was that the concertmaster, Paul Beard, had changed all of Tippett's violin bowings, making the part seem rhythmically incomprehensible.

Somewhere (Kemp? Bowen? Whitall?) I've read that not only were the bowings changed but the beamings too. Which makes more sense of the above 'making the part seem rhythmically incomprehensible', because changing bowings itself might not be enough to do this.


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 03:56:03 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 26, 2011, 03:48:36 AM
But accurate.  ;)  Why, did not our Saul make that very same inspired mistake in his own wondrous scores?

I fear he did, and your charge is fair beyond reproach.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 03:58:42 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 26, 2011, 02:46:15 AM


(http://images.rottentomatoes.com/images/movie/gallery/1014194/photo_10.jpg)


'It's not The Messiah, it's Havergal Brian's 4th symphony'



:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 03:59:14 AM
Good point Karl. I've never heard a score by Milhaud that didn't sound utterly banal. At the same time I find Ravel dreary and unappealing despite the fact that he's obviously a master. Terrible of me,eh?
By the way,what are you're favourite Brian scores,if any,John?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 04:00:47 AM
Ravel? Dreary? Fie and shame! 


:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 04:01:44 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 03:58:42 AM

:D

Well, you can see where the confusion could arise...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 04:04:49 AM
Oh, one interesting tidbit of information - I don't know WHAT they are recording, but a new Brian CD is being recorded now. John Grimshaw revealed it yesterday, but remained tantalisingly cagey... It could be the second Toccata CD.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 04:13:20 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 26, 2011, 04:00:47 AM
Ravel? Dreary? Fie and shame! 


:)

Knew I could count on Luke to step in ahead of me here!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 04:19:10 AM
Believe me,I HAVE tried!
(More good news from Johan).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 04:26:36 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 03:59:14 AM
Good point Karl. I've never heard a score by Milhaud that didn't sound utterly banal. At the same time I find Ravel dreary and unappealing despite the fact that he's obviously a master. Terrible of me,eh?
By the way,what are you're favourite Brian scores,if any,John?
Love the 10th. The best 10th in the business. It's high up in the list of my top 50 favourite works. I now also like 21 a lot having revisited it after 30 years and played it to death on my hols fror 3 weeks. Psalm 23 is beautiful in an old fashioned English sort of way. Love the 1st and 3rd movements of the Gothic but not so sure about the rest of it (thus far!!). Some sections of the fiddle concerto are admirable. The Tigers Suite is very attractive indeed ditto In Memorium (very moving). I've just listened to the 8th twice through and I'm warming to it. Indeed I like more of Brian's music than I do of several other composers so I'm partly converted. Ravel - to me Mother Goose is one of the most wonderful orchestral scores ever put on paper, especially the concluding pages. Masterful orchestration and amazing, soulful, inspired music. Just superb. By the way, having listened to HB 8 twice through, it whet my appetite so I watched the DVD of The Unknown Warrior, just about the most touching portrait of a composer to have been put out on TV. I still await my pro transfer of the LSSO/CBS LP but watch this space. I will share the files when available.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 04:38:55 AM
In an earlier post Johan refers to the liking I have for the 8 symphonies of Benjamin Frankel. He has a very clear unclutterd style which I personally find very appealing. Others won't feel the same. If anyone is interested in listening to this composer's work here is a link to my Mediafire account:

http://www.mediafire.com/?aq78i8vx47ccb
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 04:39:21 AM
Interesting choice. I find you're criticism interesting,because unlike some of Brian's critics,you obviously have really put some effort into listening to the music itself,instead of the 'hype' (if that's the right word?!!!).
Regarding,Mother Goose. Come to think of it,that is a score I DO like.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 04:41:45 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 04:39:21 AM
Interesting choice. I find you're criticism interesting,because unlike some of Brian's critics,you obviously have really put some effort into listening to the music itself,instead of the 'hype' (if that's the right word?!!!).


I can vouch for that. John and I have been in contact for years now, and he started out liking the 10th. Nothing more. So that's quite a journey...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 04:46:48 AM
John is living proof that people who like Brian aren't all misguided cranks who think every single piece of music Brian wrote is a work of shattering,epoch making genius.
Well,we don't........do we?!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 04:48:21 AM
Do we?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 04:53:49 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 04:39:21 AM
Interesting choice. I find you're criticism interesting,because unlike some of Brian's critics,you obviously have really put some effort into listening to the music itself,instead of the 'hype' (if that's the right word?!!!).
Regarding,Mother Goose. Come to think of it,that is a score I DO like.

Mother Goose, I should think so too!!! What about Daphnis? Surely........ By the way, maybe hype isn't the right word to use. With Brian it's Antihype if such a word exists. I can't abide the ignorant, sneering, snobbish dismissal of music that is viewed as "unfashionable" by the critics. The same people that mock Brian are the ones who faun over Birtwistle and his like. George Lloyd has suffered a similar fate and although his music is tonal, old fashioned and uneven it has its moments of inspiration and beauty. Bob Simpson rated Brian and Nielsen. I value his judgment and, indeed, his own superb music. If it's OK for Bob then who am I to disagree.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 04:56:00 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 04:46:48 AM
John is living proof that people who like Brian aren't all misguided cranks who think every single piece of music Brian wrote is a work of shattering,epoch making genius.
Well,we don't........do we?!!!!!!!!

Lovely post but there's one huge error. I am, actually, a misguided crank.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 04:58:13 AM
Daphnis? I'm crumbling now! I've got the RCA living stereo recording of the Munch in a box. MUST get it out.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 04:59:01 AM
My apologies John.
But you still hate Bruckner? Not even the fifth?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 04:59:29 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 04:53:49 AM
Mother Goose, I should think so too!!! What about Daphnis? Surely........

At the risk of utter derailment . . . and how anyone could not adore the Sonata for violin and cello, and the a minor Piano Trio, is beyond me!

All right . . . my penance will be to break out some Brian for a fresh listen, I think I've actually brought some back home from the office . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 05:02:51 AM
Okay! Okay! You've got me.
But do I HAVE to like Bolero?!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 26, 2011, 05:03:15 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 04:04:49 AM
Oh, one interesting tidbit of information - I don't know WHAT they are recording, but a new Brian CD is being recorded now. John Grimshaw revealed it yesterday, but remained tantalisingly cagey... It could be the second Toccata CD.

If you do actually mean recording then it can't mean the second Toccata cd since that was recorded a year ago.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 05:04:22 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 05:02:51 AM
Okay! Okay! You've got me.
But do I HAVE to like Bolero?!!!

No, of course not.

Though I do, meself.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 05:05:07 AM
I was thinking that. But what would I know?
The 'Wine of Summer'? Pleeeeeease!
The lack of a recording (on cd) of WOS. Now that is mind boggling!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 26, 2011, 05:06:04 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 05:05:07 AM
I was thinking that. But what would I know?
The 'Wine of Summer'? Pleeeeeease!
Whine of Summer?!?!? :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 05:06:56 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 04:59:01 AM
My apologies John.
But you still hate Bruckner? Not even the fifth?

I prefer Horlicks.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 26, 2011, 05:08:42 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 04:38:55 AM
In an earlier post Johan refers to the liking I have for the 8 symphonies of Benjamin Frankel. He has a very clear unclutterd style which I personally find very appealing. Others won't feel the same. If anyone is interested in listening to this composer's work here is a link to my Mediafire account:

http://www.mediafire.com/?aq78i8vx47ccb

I used to rave about Frankel's music on this forum two years ago(when I was previously active here).....often when I was being accused of trying to put people off music by serialist composers ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 05:31:30 AM
No 5 (Frankel not Brian). I particularly remember that one. The cassette copy was in awful sound & the bloke who sent it was apologetic. He was a big admirer of Frankel. What a gorgeous opening. No time to listen to all of it now. Thank you John. Very concise,aren't they? They don't take long to download,either!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 05:34:12 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 26, 2011, 05:03:15 AM
 If you do actually mean recording then it can't mean the second Toccata cd since that was recorded a year ago.
 

 You're right! I think I know now what they are recording... But I'll have to be silent on that score, alas. Let's wait for the HBS to announce something later.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 26, 2011, 05:50:34 AM
Tease ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 06:01:00 AM
Any 'Wine' or singing involved?
Ok! Don't want to get you banned!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 06:14:22 AM
I wonder if it's the postponed Naxos?
By the way,I notice that no one rushed to defend poor old Milhaud!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 06:17:10 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 06:14:22 AM
I wonder if it's the postponed Naxos?
By the way,I notice that no one rushed to defend poor old Milhaud!

Re Naxos: perhaps, but I would be pleasantly surprised.
Re Milhaud: when Mirror Image visits this thread I expect a vigorous defense...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 06:28:10 AM
Hm! All will be revealed,no doubt & by you,probably? As to Milhaud,there's so much I shouldn't really judge. I had an old RCA recording with his 'Chansons de Ronsard' on it.The singer made an impression,but I forget who it was. Maybe I'll have a go at one or two of his symphonies. I see that CPO have done him proud!
Mirror Image is a fan,I gather!
Must say,Brian is quite lucky compared to my fellow countryman Daniel Jones. I fear I will be in a bath chair before I receive a nice shiny box set of his complete symphonies through the post!
Maybe he should have written a huge two hour symphony?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 26, 2011, 07:06:18 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 05:02:51 AM
Okay! Okay! You've got me.
But do I HAVE to like Bolero?!!!

I love Ravel more than any human alive, I am pretty sure of that.  ;D  ;D I don't think he wrote a single weak note in his life (and he might be the only composer of whom that can be said). And even I don't listen to Bolero much, except once in a blue moon. But I respect it hugely, mind you, and on the right day, it can blow me away.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 07:23:57 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 06:14:22 AM
I wonder if it's the postponed Naxos?
By the way,I notice that no one rushed to defend poor old Milhaud!

I now offer a vigorous defence of Milhaud. I prefer him to Bruckner. Mind you, that also applies to surgery without an anaesthetic or Welsh claret.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 26, 2011, 07:32:56 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 06:28:10 AM
Hm! All will be revealed,no doubt & by you,probably? As to Milhaud,there's so much I shouldn't really judge. I had an old RCA recording with his 'Chansons de Ronsard' on it.The singer made an impression,but I forget who it was. Maybe I'll have a go at one or two of his symphonies. I see that CPO have done him proud!
Mirror Image is a fan,I gather!
Must say,Brian is quite lucky compared to my fellow countryman Daniel Jones. I fear I will be in a bath chair before I receive a nice shiny box set of his complete symphonies through the post!
Maybe he should have written a huge two hour symphony?

Now that the BBC National Orchestra of Wales has got a brand new shiny young Danish principal conductor maybe he could be persuaded to record some Daniel Jones?

or what about Dutton?

Better Daniel Jones than other interminable 'soft Romantic' meanderings ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 07:35:00 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 07:23:57 AM
I now offer a vigorous defence of Milhaud. I prefer him to Bruckner. Mind you, that also applies to surgery without an anaesthetic or Welsh claret.

Hah! But not me, John (and I'm only a recent convert to Bruckner) . . . A.B. invites me back, where D.M. (the symphonies, in particular) can make me wonder why I came in the first place.

Other Milhaud works (L'homme et son désir, e.g.) I'll pound the table for, any day.  I only wish that all his work had been at that level.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 26, 2011, 07:41:27 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 26, 2011, 07:35:00 AM

Hah! But not me, John (and I'm only a recent convert to Bruckner) . . . A.B. invites me back, where D.M. (the symphonies, in particular) can make me wonder why I came in the first place.

Other Milhaud works (L'homme et son désir, e.g.) I'll pound the table for, any day.  I only wish that all his work had been at that level.


I confess that Milhaud's symphonies all sound much the same to me..............which could never be said of Bruckner ;D (wait a minute...yes it has!...but it aint true!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 07:44:56 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 26, 2011, 07:32:56 AMBetter Daniel Jones than other interminable 'soft Romantic' meanderings


Thinking of York Bowen or a certain rugged Yorkshireman, by any chance?  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 26, 2011, 07:46:54 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 07:44:56 AM

Thinking of York Bowen or a certain rugged Yorkshireman, by any chance?  ;D

Oh, Johan, how could you infer such.......... ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 07:57:34 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 26, 2011, 07:32:56 AM
Now that the BBC National Orchestra of Wales has got a brand new shiny young Danish principal conductor maybe he could be persuaded to record some Daniel Jones?

or what about Dutton?

Better Daniel Jones than other interminable 'soft Romantic' meanderings ;D ;D

Daniel Jones is HUGE in Denmark so there's a fighting chance. What about Bill Mathias? His Sinfonietta was always great fun to play. Grace Williams? Alan Hadenough? The list is endless.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 07:59:23 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 26, 2011, 07:06:18 AM
I love Ravel more than any human alive, I am pretty sure of that. 

I thought he was dead.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 08:00:56 AM
Well, I suppose he could love Ravel more than he loves anyone alive, unlikely though it be . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 26, 2011, 08:26:25 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 26, 2011, 07:57:34 AM
Daniel Jones is HUGE in Denmark so there's a fighting chance. What about Bill Mathias? His Sinfonietta was always great fun to play. Grace Williams? Alan Hadenough? The list is endless.

Actually, Mathias hasn't done too badly in terms of recordings(all three Symphonies, the Sinfonietta, Piano Concerto No.3, Oboe Concerto, Clarinet Concerto, Horn Concerto, Harp Concerto, lots of the shorter orchestral pieces and two of the big choral works "Lux Aeterna" and "This Worlde's Joie"). A recording of the Violin Concerto wouldn't go amiss though(coupled with the Daniel Jones Violin Concerto, of course ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 08:38:59 AM
Daniel Jones is HUGE in Denmark? Erm,this is the same Daniel Jones,I hope?! Dacapo would be ideal. Maybe his output is a little rhapsodic or uneven at times,but I love the way he,so often, combines rugged and often severe writing with an almost,(but not quite) lush romanticism. His best orchestration glitters. Even at his most severe,he has an ear for colour.He also uses instruments in fascinating ways. The use of an 'orchestral piano' and percussion in his eighth symphony,is a case in point.
I'd KILL for a cpo box set!!!!!

David Wynne (1900-1983),another & very prolific Welsh composer,could also do with some attention from the cd companies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 26, 2011, 08:50:03 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 08:38:59 AM
Daniel Jones is HUGE in Denmark? Erm,this is the same Daniel Jones,I hope?! Dacapo would be ideal. Maybe his output is a little rhapsodic or uneven at times,but I love the way he,so often, combines rugged and often severe writing with an almost,(but not quite) lush romanticism. His best orchestration glitters. Even at his most severe,he has an ear for colour.He also uses instruments in fascinating ways. The use of an 'orchestral piano' and percussion in his eighth symphony,is a case in point.
I'd kill for a cpo box set!!!!!

David Wynne (1900-1983),another & very prolific Welsh composer,could also do with some attention from the cd companies.

I am afraid that the Danes have probably never heard of Daniel Jones :(

I absolutely agree with what you say about this very fine composer. He reminds me-at times-of the Dane Vagn Holmboe.

I do wish that Symphony No.5 and Symphonies Nos. 10-12 would be recorded!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 26, 2011, 10:56:56 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 08:38:59 AM
Daniel Jones is HUGE in Denmark? Erm,this is the same Daniel Jones,I hope?! Dacapo would be ideal. Maybe his output is a little rhapsodic or uneven at times,but I love the way he,so often, combines rugged and often severe writing with an almost,(but not quite) lush romanticism. His best orchestration glitters. Even at his most severe,he has an ear for colour.He also uses instruments in fascinating ways. The use of an 'orchestral piano' and percussion in his eighth symphony,is a case in point.
I'd KILL for a cpo box set!!!!!

David Wynne (1900-1983),another & very prolific Welsh composer,could also do with some attention from the cd companies.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10658.msg265136.html#msg265136
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 11:03:13 AM
The Eighth Symphony has snuck up on me, rather. I like it markedly better than I recall from the inaugural listen.  Maybe it was a weird day when I first heard it . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 11:17:23 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 26, 2011, 11:03:13 AM
The Eighth Symphony has snuck up on me, rather. I like it markedly better than I recall from the inaugural listen.  Maybe it was a weird day when I first heard it . . . .


No, it's the way it is with Brian's music. You must get used to it, a piece at a time. Once you're 'through', there is only enjoyment. It took me a dozen of listens to 'get' most of his works. They have to grow on you.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on August 26, 2011, 11:21:26 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 11:17:23 AM

No, it's the way it is with Brian's music. You must get used to it, a piece at a time. Once you're 'through', there is only enjoyment. It took me a dozen of listens to 'get' most of his works. They have to grow on you.

Agreed. I guess we all went through a similar process. Ant there are still a few discs waiting for me  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 11:22:43 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 26, 2011, 11:21:26 AM
Agreed. I guess we all went through a similar process. Ant there are still a few discs waiting for me  ;D


Enjoy them. Good to 'see' you, Johan!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on August 26, 2011, 11:37:48 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 11:22:43 AM
Enjoy them. Good to 'see' you, Johan!

I'm still hoping for more pictures of the All Brianites Reunion at the occasion of  Proms' Gothic, in mid July. I should have been there too, but was  navigating my way through the Apennines towards Pistóia, at that very moment ..  ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 11:39:44 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 26, 2011, 11:37:48 AM
I'm still hoping for more pictures of the All Brianites Reunion at the occasion of  Proms' Gothic, in mid July. I should have been there too, but was  navigating my way through the Apennines towards Pistóia, at that very moment ..  ::)


I don't have much. But let's see... There is one I didn't post (I think!), with a 'full frontal' of Luke, Brian looking at the camera, me in profile and my friend Michiel with his back turned. Here it is...


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on August 26, 2011, 12:23:50 PM
Where is the photograph/s taken by Jeffrey in the pub afterwards?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 12:33:45 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on August 26, 2011, 12:23:50 PM
Where is the photograph/s taken by Jeffrey in the pub afterwards?


Still being developed, I think... Here are you (I posted this already, I believe):

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 26, 2011, 12:48:45 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 12:33:45 PM

Still being developed, I think...

You mean, like . . . that film stuff? That's so 19th century . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2011, 12:53:57 PM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 26, 2011, 12:48:45 PM
You mean, like . . . that film stuff? That's so 19th century . . . .


It's the Jeffrey way... We have something to look forward to.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2011, 01:00:23 PM
It makes me feel a bit better about my dolby cassette deck,anyway!
Did you take a Super 8 cine?!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 12:57:21 AM
I just read this comment posted on my YouTube upload of Brian's 22nd:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT48IpcK21E&feature=email&email=comment_received
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 01:08:41 AM
Just read it, too. It's always nice when people react. I firmly disagree with the writer's view, of course, that goes without saying.

But now - on with my Saturday!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 02:49:03 AM
Some time ago from this forum I downloaded somebody's MP3 file of the Suite No. 4 played by a school orchestra. I'm quite taken with the piece - it strikes me as being from the same gene pool as Dream Children/Wand of Youth/Nursery Suite. Anyway, I've topped and tailed it, removed the clicks as much as possible, saved as individual movements and reuploaded. Here's the link:

http://www.mediafire.com/?c8eug6qm46949
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 03:00:17 AM
That Fourth English Suite mp3 came courtesy of Hattoff (Steve), John. Thanks for the edit. I'll have a listen later!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 03:26:46 AM
Couldn't help myself - what a haunting and enchanting music this is! Thanks again for the cleaning-up operation. I was suddenly reminded of Mother Goose, but also of Mahler's Wunderhorn music. This piece is a sort of Young Person's Guide to Havergal Brian... Although the performance leaves something to be desired, you can still hear it's good music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 04:01:26 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 03:26:46 AM
Couldn't help myself - what a haunting and enchanting music this is! Thanks again for the cleaning-up operation. I was suddenly reminded of Mother Goose, but also of Mahler's Wunderhorn music. This piece is a sort of Young Person's Guide to Havergal Brian... Although the performance leaves something to be desired, you can still hear it's good music.
There's a surprise. You are a total addict. Hats off to the kids for at least playing something that's different and (for them) challenging. Encouragement and thanks are in order rather than harsh criticism. I would love to get my hands on the LP to do a proper job but it's the best I could come up with. I've just downloaded your 7/31 folder and will listen to it later.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 04:06:03 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 04:01:26 AM
There's a surprise. You are a total addict. (...)


It's called love, John, not addiction...   ;D Before you go on to those symphonies, have you ever listened to Malcolm MacDonald's excellent introduction to Brian (with excerpts)? If not, I recommend it! (right-click and save)


http://www.havergalbrian.org/hb_mm.mp3 (http://www.havergalbrian.org/hb_mm.mp3)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 04:19:29 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 04:06:03 AM

It's called love, John, not addiction...   ;D Before you go on to those symhonies, have you ever listened to Malcolm MacDonald's excellent introduction to Brian (with excerpts)? If not, I recommend it! (right-click and save)


http://www.havergalbrian.org/hb_mm.mp3 (http://www.havergalbrian.org/hb_mm.mp3)

I will listen to it. I recall this bloke's name - he wrote a huge review (a couple of pages long) of the Unicorn 10/21 in (I think) Records and Recording magazine and said it was the most significant release of 1973. Did you see it? It's in my loft somewhere so I can dig it out and scan it if you like.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 04:31:01 AM
MM is the undisputed Brian expert, and the link is to an illustrated talk... As for his review, no need to dig, I think I can find it on JSTOR! And may already have read it...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 27, 2011, 04:51:04 AM
Back to Brian,as it should be. My sincere apologies for,briefly, turning this into a Daniel Jones thread (Sorry Johan) & Dundonnell's discreet & rewarding link to the appropriate thread!!!! The mod on that message board I used to use would NOT have been so polite.
Haven't heard Malcolm Macdonalds illustrated talk. I would love to hear this too.
  Brian got a review several pages long in Records and Recording? That must have been a good magazine! Those were the days....

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 04:58:18 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 27, 2011, 04:51:04 AM
Back to Brian,as it should be. My sincere apologies for,briefly, turning this into a Daniel Jones thread (Sorry Johan) & Dundonnell's discreet & rewarding link to the appropriate thread!!!! The mod on that message board I used to use would NOT have been so polite.
Haven't heard Malcolm Macdonalds illustrated talk. I would love to hear this too.
  Brian got a review several pages long in Records and Recording? That must have been a good magazine! Those were the days....


A thread can veer off, that's no sin. Btw, it's our very own Dundonnell (Colin), who as a mere 16-year old alerted his friend Malcolm to the existence of one Havergal Brian...  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on August 27, 2011, 05:32:27 AM
Thanks to John for cleaning up the English Suite files, you have done a good job. I'm glad the files are being shared.
You can have the original LP as long as I get a copy of the new brighter files :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 27, 2011, 05:34:08 AM
Really? Well,I'm not suprised,in a way. I wouldn't have thought allot of stuff that good would get past him. Indeed,long before I began to post on this Message Board,I would actually refer 'Dundonnell's' posts when I was trying to find information about an unusual or neglected composer,or if I was choosing a recording. I used others,of course,but I remember his posts were very informative. They stood out from the crowd!
Must say,it would be nice to see that Daniel Jones reach a bit further than one page! Some new recordings or broadcasts would help!
Anyway..................
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 27, 2011, 05:44:03 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 04:06:03 AM

It's called love, John, not addiction...   ;D Before you go on to those symphonies, have you ever listened to Malcolm MacDonald's excellent introduction to Brian (with excerpts)? If not, I recommend it! (right-click and save)

http://www.havergalbrian.org/hb_mm.mp3 (http://www.havergalbrian.org/hb_mm.mp3)

Thanks for this, Johan; will listen this weekend.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 27, 2011, 05:48:52 AM
I've downloaded it! (Thought there was someone at the door. It's a sound effect on the Solti recording of 'The Marriage of Figaro'!!!!!!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 05:50:51 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 04:31:01 AM
MM is the undisputed Brian expert, and the link is to an illustrated talk... As for his review, no need to dig, I think I can find it on JSTOR! And may already have read it...

Hi Johan, If you can find the JSTOR copy it would save me a trip to the atticc!! I've listen intently to the superb illustrated talk. Absolutely excellent and thoroughly enjoyable but as much as I admire the presentation skills and knowledge of the composer I have to disagree with some of its content. Here I go, John giveth and John then taketh away (quote: Johan). He doesn't really admit some of the faults and issues with the music. It's a bit like having a 3 legged dog and doing a talk about it for 30 minutes without referring to the fact that it has a leg missing. Actually, worse than that, the talk actually says that the 3 legged nature of the beast is actually planned. I don't hold the view that some of the lack of symphonic argument is planned by Brian. I still sit in the camp that feels that the ideas don't always go through to a satisfying conclusion. The mastery of the orchestra is mentioned. Sorry but even Bob Simpson refers to the writing as being crude in places and "as rough as a bear's backside". Some of the passages are just too thick, not in terms of excessive counterpoint, but the actual orchestration of the counterpoint making it difficult to get the strands actually heard through the notes. Ravel was a master of the orchestra. To claim this for HB is just too fanciful. Brian would have benefitted from hearing his first thoughts played live by an orchestra and then I'm pretty sure he would have got out the Tippex (a la Tippett). I like the sound of Brian but an orchestral master he wasn't - ask some pro players, they will almost always tell you that his writing is awkward and too dense. Now to a question - brass bands are referred to a couple of times but brass bands don't use trumpets they use cornets. Did Brian ever write for cornets (Berlioz certainly did)? I ask this as a serious question because anyone with a brass band influence would use Euphs and Tubas (Brain does) and also Cornets (Did he?). Getting back to my earlier point about listening to first drafts I found the side drum comment a bit strange. Brian needs 3 because 1 wasn't enough. Did he ever actually hear the music live? This is a peculiar point because I can assure everyone out there that sitting in the ranks of the 2nd fiddles during Nielsen 5 is overwhelming. You can't hear yourself think. The side drum goes berserk and drowns everything out. The requirement for 3 of them is mind and ear boggling.  I loved the music chosen, obviously the 2 LSSO excerpts tickled my fancy but the end of the 9th is a joy. I make my points sincerely - I had a dog once with 4 legs and the animal had its faults. I loved it anyway ditto some of HBs work. As good as the talk is, for me, it's trying to position Brian with Elgar, Shostakovitch and Dick Strauss. Sorry (again) but he isn't quite in their league (my subjective personal view only I hasten to add). I hope I don't need to get a tin helmet on!!! Off now, Leicester City kick off in 15 mins. Will listen to HB 7 later tonight. Toodle pip.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 05:52:18 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on August 27, 2011, 05:32:27 AM
Thanks to John for cleaning up the English Suite files, you have done a good job. I'm glad the files are being shared.
You can have the original LP as long as I get a copy of the new brighter files :)

That would be good. Is it stereo - the MP3s are mono.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 06:12:28 AM
Excellent (penultimate) post, John. Your view is clear and well-argued. Remains the fact - did Brian want transparency? Did he intend everything to be audible? Or is a Brian score something to read, too? I have been looking at the score of 'The Gothic' the past 24 hours. I am no pro, but I know my way around a score and do notice things. The score teems with detail and it's a joy just seeing it. Every composer has to translate his aural vision into the concrete and playable form of a score. I get the impression that Brian sometimes writes for the ideal orchestra of his mind.


I know Karl will have a look at the score, too. I hope that in the coming weeks he could comment on John's fundamental criticism, too. Luke already did, of course. But we need every voice!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 27, 2011, 06:14:02 AM
I should be many a year trying to get up to Luke's speed here . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 06:17:11 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 27, 2011, 06:14:02 AM
I should be many a year trying to get up to Luke's speed here . . . .

That goes without saying. Still, you are bound to notice things. If you do, please report back if you can spare the time!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 27, 2011, 06:30:38 AM
As rough as bears back side?

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 06:44:25 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 27, 2011, 06:30:38 AM
As rough as bears back side?
Yep. He says it on The Unknown Warrior film.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 07:00:36 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 06:12:28 AM
Excellent (penultimate) post, John. Your view is clear and well-argued. Remains the fact - did Brian want transparency? Did he intend everything to be audible? Or is a Brian score something to read, too? I have been looking at the score of 'The Gothic' the past 24 hours. I am no pro, but I know my way around a score and do notice things. The score teems with detail and it's a joy just seeing it. Every composer has to translate his aural vision into the concrete and playable form of a score. I get the impression that Brian sometimes writes for the ideal orchestra of his mind.


I know Karl will have a look at the score, too. I hope that in the coming weeks he could comment on John's fundamental criticism, too. Luke already did, of course. But we need every voice!

That is unintentionally damning Johan if you don't mind me saying. All scores are to be read. Mozart is a miracle - it looks nothing on paper but sounds heavenly. Dick Strauss scores are teeming with notes but miraculously virtually everything can be heard - no multi layering to unfocus the argument. There's no point putting stuff on paper that isn't heard. All it does is clutter the orchestral sound and decrease the impact of the important strands that must be heard. Result - a thick orchestral swamp that sounds unattractive and just turns people off. I return to my previous point on an earlier post - Brian would have realised this fundamental flaw (that's what I believe it to be) had he had an orchestra at his disposal to try his music out in his early career. I feel for the bloke because this did him no favours whatsoever. Look at the Rite of Spring. It looks a horror on paper but it's transparent because all the notes are required and the piece is superbly scored to get everything out into the auditorium. The point that Brian is writing for an ideal orchestra of his mind gives further ammunition to critics who call his music unpractical and amateur. Discuss...........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 07:12:56 AM
It sounds more damning than I intend. Apart from which - who am I? Just a writer with a love of music. Wagner wrote for superhuman voices, too, and not many nowadays are able to cope with his demands. When I speak of an 'ideal orchestra', I mean the sense Brian gives me of keeping as close to something in his mind. It is this quality of being 'inside' a very fertile consciousness that Brian's music conveys perfectly. And it is precisely that which can create an obsession in those who love his music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 10:57:24 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 07:12:56 AM
It sounds more damning than I intend. Apart from which - who am I? Just a writer with a love of music. Wagner wrote for superhuman voices, too, and not many nowadays are able to cope with his demands. When I speak of an 'ideal orchestra', I mean the sense Brian gives me of keeping as close to something in his mind. It is this quality of being 'inside' a very fertile consciousness that Brian's music conveys perfectly. And it is precisely that which can create an obsession in those who love his music.

I now see where you are coming from and agree with what you are saying. Lost in translation so to speak.......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 27, 2011, 01:00:03 PM
My own thoughts on John's thoughts, FWIW...

Quote from: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 05:50:51 AM
He doesn't really admit some of the faults and issues with the music. It's a bit like having a 3 legged dog and doing a talk about it for 30 minutes without referring to the fact that it has a leg missing.

I think one can forgive a bit of defensiveness, or at least a clear intention to present the Other Side of the argument strongly, from one who actually knows of what he speaks, when most of what gets written about Brian in the wider press is pretty superficial and often very misleading. And as you say...

Quote from: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 05:50:51 AM
Actually, worse than that, the talk actually says that the 3 legged nature of the beast is actually planned.

...it's only 'worse than that' if MM is wrong. If he is right, and he has more knowledge of the music than anyone else, so he is likely to be, then why shouldn't he present his case?  In which case, it isn't 'worse than that' at all. MM is a Brian lover, of course, but he is not blinded by this; he is more than willing to criticise the symphonies when he sees flaws (13 and 14 get the roughest treatment!). But in the context of this brief talk, whose purpose is to provide a stylistic introduction, why would he talk about that?

Quote from: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 05:50:51 AM
I don't hold the view that some of the lack of symphonic argument is planned by Brian. I still sit in the camp that feels that the ideas don't always go through to a satisfying conclusion.

That's fair enough; that's the sort of thing that can never be proved. Personally I am of the opinion that there are no more naturally symphonic symponists that Brian; that is not the same thing as saying his symphonies re the best; what it means is that my own feeling of Brian is that he had a pretty unerring instinct for what was truly symphonic. I have trust in that side of him, and when I don't 'get' a work immediately I have trust that it reveal its logic to me at some point. It almost always does. The 8th, the one I always talk about, is nothing like a symphony in construction....and yet, and yet, I feel it is more truly a symphony than almost any other work I know. It goes beyond the surface to the nub of what symphonies are, IMO. And though I mention the 8th, that goes for many of the others too - the 10th is one of them, BTW.

Quote from: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 05:50:51 AM
The mastery of the orchestra is mentioned. Sorry but even Bob Simpson refers to the writing as being crude in places and "as rough as a bear's backside". Some of the passages are just too thick, not in terms of excessive counterpoint, but the actual orchestration of the counterpoint making it difficult to get the strands actually heard through the notes. Ravel was a master of the orchestra. To claim this for HB is just too fanciful. Brian would have benefitted from hearing his first thoughts played live by an orchestra and then I'm pretty sure he would have got out the Tippex (a la Tippett). I like the sound of Brian but an orchestral master he wasn't - ask some pro players, they will almost always tell you that his writing is awkward and too dense.

Well, this is what we discussed yesterday, and I think we agreed on it, really. Working backwards, it may be the case that pro players will find x,y and z awkward and dense in Brian, but I really don't think that pro players' verdicts, in themselves, are interesting on any other level than the technical; they don't tell us if it good music or not, just that they find it hard. If this sort of 'flaw' in the music is part of the definition of bad music, Janacek's music is some of the worst ever composed! As I said yesterday, 'pro players' tend to like to find flaws in lesser-known composers, for whatever reason. They don't tend to do so with the established names, who have 'proved themselves'; but as we talked about yesterday, the established names are just as guilty, sometimes! Brian himself was not the amateur known-nothing in orchestration he can be painted as. He played in orchestras himself, for a start; and though much of his music went unheard, he heard quite a chunk of it, too. Meanwhile, in his regular work as a music writer/critic, he studied (often very orchestrally advanced) scores and heard orchestras just like every other composer. His knowledge of orchestration was excellent; his writings on Berlioz's Treatise prove that he knew and understood it inside out. None of this makes him a good orchestrator, of course, but they do hint that he certainly knew what he was about. As for me, I adore the inimitable sound of a Brian orchestra. The best sounding symphonies, orchestrally, always seem to be the ones which are best played, by the best orchestras, too.  ;) That ought to tell us something - it's hard, but when played properly, it sounds just fine, thank you!  :D

Quote from: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 05:50:51 AM
Now to a question - brass bands are referred to a couple of times but brass bands don't use trumpets they use cornets. Did Brian ever write for cornets (Berlioz certainly did)? I ask this as a serious question because anyone with a brass band influence would use Euphs and Tubas (Brain does) and also Cornets (Did he?).

Yes. There are cornets in The Gothic, but funnily enough, not in the bands themselves (according to the score at any rate, but it's not always trustworthy)

Quote from: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 05:50:51 AM
Getting back to my earlier point about listening to first drafts I found the side drum comment a bit strange. Brian needs 3 because 1 wasn't enough. Did he ever actually hear the music live?

Yes, AFAIK it is because he heard it live that he decided that the 3 side drums should be the norm. He found one on its own too weak in tone.

Quote from: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 05:50:51 AM
This is a peculiar point because I can assure everyone out there that sitting in the ranks of the 2nd fiddles during Nielsen 5 is overwhelming. You can't hear yourself think. The side drum goes berserk and drowns everything out. The requirement for 3 of them is mind and ear boggling. 

But Nielsen 5 is an exceptional cas,e in which the side drum is supposed to go beserk. Brian's 3 drums are used (as I understand it) not so much for an increase in volume as for greater timbral weight, in the quiet passages as much as in the loud. He simply thought that 3 drums sounded better than 1 - not louder, better.

Quote from: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 05:50:51 AM
I loved the music chosen, obviously the 2 LSSO excerpts tickled my fancy but the end of the 9th is a joy. I make my points sincerely - I had a dog once with 4 legs and the animal had its faults. I loved it anyway ditto some of HBs work. As good as the talk is, for me, it's trying to position Brian with Elgar, Shostakovitch and Dick Strauss. Sorry (again) but he isn't quite in their league (my subjective personal view only I hasten to add). I hope I don't need to get a tin helmet on!!!

As far as Brian's 'status' goes, I think of him as a specialist symphonist (those poor operas, though...!) and thus as a bit of a case apart. I don't really know many others like him in this respect. He certainly lacks some of the things that make the three composers you name great, important among them some of the things that give music an immediate appeal - he wasn't the greatest melodist (though some of the extended melodies are heart-stoppingly gorgeous; he wasn't one for seductive glitter and show (though when he wanted to he could do this); his structrues and techniques can confuse and obfuscate. But it is possible, of course, that they lacked some of the things that made him great, or at least made him him. I think that is the point, really, those last few words - Brian was Brian, through and through; it is the unique doggedness and character, the brusqueness and then unexpected potry, the humour and the wisdom that make him who he is, and the music is brim-full of these things. That's why I love him, and why ranking him against others isn't really the point for me.

Quote from: John Whitmore on August 27, 2011, 05:50:51 AM
Off now, Leicester City kick off in 15 mins. Will listen to HB 7 later tonight. Toodle pip.

How did we do? I haven't checked yet. Not been the best start so far, has it.... :-[
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 01:35:39 PM
Just to add to Luke's post:  in the final analysis vision is greater than perfection (says this perfectionist writer), and I think Brian realised (most of) his more than adequately. We still know too little about the man and his work, there is no critical edition, his operas lie unperformed, there are two volumes of his writings, but four still remain... I could go on. At this moment some individuals are deeply touched and inspired by his music, so much so that they devote a lot of time to listening to it, thinking about it, writing about it.


But that's only the beginning.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on August 27, 2011, 01:40:23 PM
Do any recordings exist of any of the operas?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 27, 2011, 01:45:11 PM
Yes. Who is it here that has The Tigers on mediafire? You'll love it, Guido...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: Luke on August 27, 2011, 01:45:11 PM
Yes. Who is it here that has The Tigers on mediafire? You'll love it, Guido...


Albion posted a link once. He is also active on the Unsung Composers Forum, and there is a folder there where The Tigers can be found... Wait a sec... And there is the Prologue in Heaven from Faust.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 27, 2011, 01:49:51 PM
...and I've just put it on! [edit - THe Tigers, I mean]  In context, I think it only right to say how delicious the orchestration is. It might be a crazy piece, this, but the musical language is close enough to 'normal' to be able to appreciate, here, quite how well Brian could work within these parameters.



What I remember of The Cenci was really, really impressive, and desperately beautiful too; I can recall enough of it to know that, anyway! I would love to hear it again, I really would.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 01:53:03 PM
http://www.mediafire.com/file/87be26h8pfd887r/Brian%20-%20The%20Tigers%20%281917-29%29%2C%20Prologue.mp3 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/87be26h8pfd887r/Brian%20-%20The%20Tigers%20%281917-29%29%2C%20Prologue.mp3)


http://www.mediafire.com/file/eh2ilnhoi32k96n/Brian%20-%20The%20Tigers%20%281917-29%29%2C%20Act%20I.mp3 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/eh2ilnhoi32k96n/Brian%20-%20The%20Tigers%20%281917-29%29%2C%20Act%20I.mp3)


http://www.mediafire.com/file/nu4fk5hqwl11ap6/Brian%20-%20The%20Tigers%20%281917-29%29%2C%20Act%20II.mp3 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/nu4fk5hqwl11ap6/Brian%20-%20The%20Tigers%20%281917-29%29%2C%20Act%20II.mp3)


http://www.mediafire.com/file/8ap51gt3xzjbp4q/Brian%20-%20The%20Tigers%20%281917-29%29%2C%20Act%20III.mp3 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/8ap51gt3xzjbp4q/Brian%20-%20The%20Tigers%20%281917-29%29%2C%20Act%20III.mp3)


http://www.mediafire.com/file/z3q8uq8r28apcv7/Brian%20-%20Faust%20Prologue%20%281956%29.mp3 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/z3q8uq8r28apcv7/Brian%20-%20Faust%20Prologue%20%281956%29.mp3)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on August 27, 2011, 01:55:08 PM
Cheers! Happily listening to Jenufa atm - will download as I listen.

I how was Cenci not recorded? Surely there's a bootleg??!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 01:57:30 PM
Quote from: Guido on August 27, 2011, 01:55:08 PM
Cheers! Happily listening to Jenufa atm - will download as I listen.

I how was Cenci not recorded? Surely there's a bootleg??!


The HBS recorded it. If you are a member, you can borrow a CD. There are also orchestral movements from Turandot (great!) and Agamemnon has been performed once (I have a tape, unplayable now - the ending is quintessental Brian).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 27, 2011, 02:05:51 PM
Had forgotten quite how fabulously fun The Tigers is! Hilarious choral moments like the gigantic chordal climaxes of The Gothic's Judex, suceeded by the most trivial little snippets of street-tune; Janacek-like declamations about not-much (reminding me of parts of Broucek); awe-inspiring orchestral thinking at times, really neatly and convincing ly carried-off. The musical material is good, strong stuff, too. And that Petrouchka-like moment...only the solo flute has here become a bassoon. And I'm only a few minutes in. Guido, you must download this AT ONCE! Feel foolish that I haven't listened in a long time.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on August 27, 2011, 02:08:43 PM
Ok! Just getting to the prayer scene in Jenufa. It's almost finished downloading so I'll break off and give it a spin!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 02:13:40 PM
The Tigers


3-8 January 1983 (recording) / 3 May 1983 (broadcast BBC Radio 3)

Teresa Cahill (soprano)  Mrs Freebody/Lady 1
Alison Hargan (soprano)  Columbine/Female in car/Lady Stout
Marilyn Hill-Smith (soprano)  Lady 2/Toy seller
Ameral Gunson (mezzo soprano)  Lady 3
Ann Marie Owens (alto)  Costerwoman/Sweetmeat seller
Paul Crook (tenor)  Artist/Bishop/Clergyman 2/Cook 2
Harry Nicoll (tenor)  Constable 1/Pantalon
John Winfield (tenor)  Coster/Clergyman 1/Cook 1/Old clothes seller
Kenneth Wollam (tenor)  Man on elephant/Man in tweeds
Ian Caddy (baritone)  Coster 1/Gentleman 1/Policeman 1
Malcolm Donnelly (baritone)  Colonel Sir John Stout
Henry Herford (baritone)  Gentleman 2
Alan Opie (baritone)  Clergyman 5/Napoleon/Young man
Alan Watt (baritone)  Coster 3/Clergyman 3/Fruitseller/Policeman 2
Norman Welsby (baritone)  Billposterer/Clergyman 4/Elephant keeper/Man's voice/Police sergeant
Richard Angas (bass-baritone)  Alexander the Great/Crier/Constable 2/Guard/Policeman 3
Eric Shilling (bass-baritone)  Officer/Regimental sergeant major/Voices
Denis Wicks (bass)  Coster 2/Clergyman 6/Red Indian

BBC Singers  The Tigers/Crowds

BBC Symphony Orchestra, conductor Lionel Friend

producer Elaine Padmore
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on August 27, 2011, 02:19:16 PM
I like it! It's a BIG work, not sure I'll listen to it all tonight.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 02:20:35 PM
Quote from: Guido on August 27, 2011, 02:19:16 PM
I like it! It's a BIG work, not sure I'll listen to it all tonight.


Take your time! The Prologue will give you a good idea...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Guido on August 27, 2011, 02:29:36 PM
I'm just 15 minutes in. It's mad! What a ride! Is there a libretto online?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2011, 02:38:40 PM
Quote from: Guido on August 27, 2011, 02:29:36 PM
I'm just 15 minutes in. It's mad! What a ride! Is there a libretto online?


Alas... I got the libretto in 1986. Some leftist group at the time saw The Tigers as a scathing indictment of class-ridden Britain and had printed it, complete with a Trotskyite introduction. This was photocopied for me by a friend when I was in England...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 27, 2011, 03:56:23 PM
It's marvellous!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on August 27, 2011, 09:26:30 PM
QuoteQuote from: Hattoff on Today at 05:32:27 AM
Thanks to John for cleaning up the English Suite files, you have done a good job. I'm glad the files are being shared.
You can have the original LP as long as I get a copy of the new brighter files

That would be good. Is it stereo - the MP3s are mono.

The original LP is in stereo, my recording was of poor quality due to lack of resources at the time, I had to record it to cassette first.
Send me a private message and I will send the LP to you.
It will take some days to get suitable packaging though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on August 27, 2011, 09:49:47 PM
John,
I also have an LP recording of Brian's "Legend" for violin and piano which could do with a good transfer, would you be willing to do that? We could put it up here for the rest of the Brianites.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 28, 2011, 12:55:43 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on August 27, 2011, 09:26:30 PM
The original LP is in stereo, my recording was of poor quality due to lack of resources at the time, I had to record it to cassette first.
Send me a private message and I will send the LP to you.
It will take some days to get suitable packaging though.

I need your email address please. If it's stereo I'm excited. I'll dust the Linn down and await the parcel.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 28, 2011, 01:01:23 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on August 27, 2011, 09:49:47 PM
John,
I also have an LP recording of Brian's "Legend" for violin and piano which could do with a good transfer, would you be willing to do that? We could put it up here for the rest of the Brianites.

I certainly will. Happy to oblige. Can I make one point. To get the best possible results I play vinyl with 70% IPA. This dissolves all the rubbish and lets the stylus glide in the grooves with reduced distortion. The down side is that when the vinyly dries the sludge dries out and dry playing is not so good anymore. If you've accessed any of my uploads (Brian22/Psalm 23 for example) this is how I got the decent results. I use a Linn/SME/Supex and will be careful with your records. Any other vinyl bootlegs while we are at it????
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 28, 2011, 01:15:25 AM
To Luke and Johan - thanks for your replies to my lengthy post of yesterday (3 legged dog discussion!). You both make interesting points some of which I understand and accept, others with which I still disagree but that's healthy. Each of us has a different view on the music. Luke - you are spot on with the timbre of 3 drums vs 1 and I hadn't thought that through. A bit like a solo violin vs a full violin section. Nothing to do with volume as you say. Doh! Brian does seem to play the volume card quite a lot with his kitchen sink orchestrations and that's why I forgot about timbre and immediately thought of volume. Nielsen 5 to me is in the top half dozen works of the 20th century just to digress for a moment. Johan - yet again you are right when you say it's better to be a visionary with faults than a perfect craftsman with nothing to say. Brian has visionary moments and a bear's backside craft (Quote: Bob Simpson). That's good news I feel. Luke, City won 3-2 but were booed off the pitch. Very poor 2nd half and lucky to win. I'm doubly cursed. Brian and Leicester City. I must have upset someone in a previous life.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 28, 2011, 01:34:48 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 28, 2011, 01:15:25 AMI must have upset someone in a previous life.

I'll consult a medium.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 28, 2011, 01:52:08 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 28, 2011, 01:34:48 AM


I'll consult a medium.

That's no good. I will need extra large.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 28, 2011, 02:07:30 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 28, 2011, 01:15:25 AM
To Luke and Johan - thanks for your replies to my lengthy post of yesterday (3 legged dog discussion!). You both make interesting points some of which I understand and accept, others with which I still disagree but that's healthy. Each of us has a different view on the music. Luke - you are spot on with the timbre of 3 drums vs 1 and I hadn't thought that through. A bit like a solo violin vs a full violin section. Nothing to do with volume as you say. Doh! Brian does seem to play the volume card quite a lot with his kitchen sink orchestrations and that's why I forgot about timbre and immediately thought of volume. Nielsen 5 to me is in the top half dozen works of the 20th century just to digress for a moment. Johan - yet again you are right when you say it's better to be a visionary with faults than a perfect craftsman with nothing to say. Brian has visionary moments and a bear's backside craft (Quote: Bob Simpson). That's good news I feel. Luke, City won 3-2 but were booed off the pitch. Very poor 2nd half and lucky to win. I'm doubly cursed. Brian and Leicester City. I must have upset someone in a previous life.

Well then, you and me both! Exactly the same afflictions. Do you think Johan's extra-large medium will give us a BOGOF?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 28, 2011, 02:27:57 AM
Apropos of our orchestration discussion, I was reading through some of Ordeal by Music last night and was struck (in the context) by this early review of Brian (the English Suite no 1):

Quote from: Musical StandardFrom the point of view of orchestral tone colour it was a triumph. His use of the orchestra is especially good, and throughout the work the varying colours of the instrumental palette were adroitly chosen and harmonised. That is an achievement in technical skill which few writers can attain; we hear so much mist and mud in modern orchestration. Neither was the scoring of this work reminiscent, it had a freshness and breezy vigour which can be broadly described as English...

Mr Henry J Wood took a tremendous interest in its interpretation, and it was very evident that the orcehstra enjoyed their labours; for, after all, it is something to an orchestral player that his work counts, that the characteristics of his instrument are not overlloked, or 'crowded out', and in this particular work the orchestral tints gleamed - that is the word, - and the various groups of tone, strings, wood, brass, precussion, were each excellently written for.

A number of unoriginal thoughts come to mind as I read that.

- that orchestration is something hard or impossible to assess, if taken at its simplest (how does it sound) two listeners can hear the same composer's writing in such - diametrically opposite - different terms.

- but that I'm not sure if this is really what is happening in our discussion; John you have spoken about the orchestration sometimes sounding poor to your ears, but also about the issues of awkwardness which some players have with it. The latter is certainly part of orchestration but only a part, and not one which the listener is primarily aware of. When you are assessing HB's orchestration, John, do you do so on the basis of sound alone, or do those
player's comments come into it? I ask only out of interest, as neither way is 'wrong,' of course.

- conected to that; interesting to see a specific comment about the players enjoying the music in that early review, and for precisely the reasons John has said that some don't enjoy it now. Were players back then more willing, less grudging, more trusting and less worldly-wise....? I don't think so, but....! Or perhaps (more likely) it is that these earlier Brian pieces are formally simpler, that their technical challenges, whilst sometimes hard (from the scores I have seen) are generally of the usual Strauss-ish sort. In the later works it is not so much the technique that changes as the language, and I can imagine that this in itself can frustrate a player. 'This is really hard, and why is it here at all? It all sounds so odd...'

- so, early Brian seems to me (and to this writer) often to be very successful, orchestrally speaking (listening to The Tigers last night only reconfirmed this for me; Doctor Merryheart has always espeically impressed me in this respect too). Everything is clear, imaginative, sparkling, strong, subtle when need be. I think in these early works Brian proves once and for all that he knows what he is doing. Therefore...

- the obvious follow-on to this is: if in Brian's much more complex and fragmented later music the orchestration can sound congested (I don't hear it as such, myself), I would say this can be explained in a number of ways a) perhaps this is exactly the sound he wants, and as he's proved his capabilities in the earlier music, this ought to be taken seriously; b) perhaps, this music being technically more demanding and rather out-of-the-ordinary in its interpretative demands too, many orchestras struggle with it and don't do it justice (I'd say my point yesterday - about the Brian symphonies which strike me as best orchestrated also being the ones which I've heard in recordings by the better orchestras - bears this out); c) perhaps Brian struggled in clothing his new musical ideas in appropriate instrumental dress, as he was at home in an orchestral style suited to less adventurous music than that t which he had arrived. I don't think the last one is true; it doesn't ring true to my own experiences of the music, but as it is one of the possibilities, I mention it here.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 28, 2011, 02:44:50 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 28, 2011, 02:07:30 AM
Well then, you and me both! Exactly the same afflictions. Do you think Johan's extra-large medium will give us a BOGOF?
A BOGOF is certainly in order. A mate of mine went to a fortune teller once and was so irritated by her constant grin that he thumped her in the face. He was arrested for striking a happy medium. I'll get my coat..............
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on August 28, 2011, 02:49:38 AM
John,
Our messages crossed ???, I will send the LPs as soon as I get suitable packaging.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 28, 2011, 02:57:17 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 28, 2011, 02:27:57 AM
Apropos of our orchestration discussion, I was reading through some of Ordeal by Music last night and was struck (in the context) by this early review of Brian (the English Suite no 1):

John you have spoken about the orchestration sometimes sounding poor to your ears, but also about the issues of awkwardness which some players have with it. The latter is certainly part of orchestration but only a part, and not one which the listener is primarily aware of. When you are assessing HB's orchestration, John, do you do so on the basis of sound alone, or do those
player's comments come into it? I ask only out of interest, as neither way is 'wrong,' of course.


Primarily I use my ears to make (subjective?) judgements on all the music I listen to. When possible I read scores. My ears just tell me that Brian doesn't quite sound right - whatever "right" actually means. In talking about music generally with my friends, some of whom are in the profession, the general concensus is that Brian is thickly scored and awkwardly written. The horn player in the pre Proms talk made the same point I think. Basically I make an assessment on the actual sound of the music but my gut feelings about the composer are backed up and reinforced by comments made by people who's views I generally trust. Of course, I may be wrong and so might they. And so it goes on......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 28, 2011, 02:59:06 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on August 28, 2011, 02:49:38 AM
John,
Our messages crossed ???, I will send the LPs as soon as I get suitable packaging.

You got my address then? What labels are these LPs actually on - I'm intrigued. Lets hope we can come up with something worth sharing. I'm optimistic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 28, 2011, 03:36:02 AM
I thought you all might enjoy seeing these 8 press cuttings from the 1970s mostly from the Leicester Mercury. All HB related of course:

http://www.mediafire.com/?5dhod35t7b4yb
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on August 28, 2011, 06:22:06 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 28, 2011, 02:27:57 AM
Apropos of our orchestration discussion, I was reading through some of Ordeal by Music last night and was struck (in the context) by this early review of Brian (the English Suite no 1):

A number of unoriginal thoughts come to mind as I read that.

- that orchestration is something hard or impossible to assess, if taken at its simplest (how does it sound) two listeners can hear the same composer's writing in such - diametrically opposite - different terms.

- but that I'm not sure if this is really what is happening in our discussion; John you have spoken about the orchestration sometimes sounding poor to your ears, but also about the issues of awkwardness which some players have with it. The latter is certainly part of orchestration but only a part, and not one which the listener is primarily aware of. When you are assessing HB's orchestration, John, do you do so on the basis of sound alone, or do those
player's comments come into it? I ask only out of interest, as neither way is 'wrong,' of course.

- conected to that; interesting to see a specific comment about the players enjoying the music in that early review, and for precisely the reasons John has said that some don't enjoy it now. Were players back then more willing, less grudging, more trusting and less worldly-wise....? I don't think so, but....! Or perhaps (more likely) it is that these earlier Brian pieces are formally simpler, that their technical challenges, whilst sometimes hard (from the scores I have seen) are generally of the usual Strauss-ish sort. In the later works it is not so much the technique that changes as the language, and I can imagine that this in itself can frustrate a player. 'This is really hard, and why is it here at all? It all sounds so odd...'

- so, early Brian seems to me (and to this writer) often to be very successful, orchestrally speaking (listening to The Tigers last night only reconfirmed this for me; Doctor Merryheart has always espeically impressed me in this respect too). Everything is clear, imaginative, sparkling, strong, subtle when need be. I think in these early works Brian proves once and for all that he knows what he is doing. Therefore...

- the obvious follow-on to this is: if in Brian's much more complex and fragmented later music the orchestration can sound congested (I don't hear it as such, myself), I would say this can be explained in a number of ways a) perhaps this is exactly the sound he wants, and as he's proved his capabilities in the earlier music, this ought to be taken seriously; b) perhaps, this music being technically more demanding and rather out-of-the-ordinary in its interpretative demands too, many orchestras struggle with it and don't do it justice (I'd say my point yesterday - about the Brian symphonies which strike me as best orchestrated also being the ones which I've heard in recordings by the better orchestras - bears this out); c) perhaps Brian struggled in clothing his new musical ideas in appropriate instrumental dress, as he was at home in an orchestral style suited to less adventurous music than that t which he had arrived. I don't think the last one is true; it doesn't ring true to my own experiences of the music, but as it is one of the possibilities, I mention it here.

Always a pleasure to read your musical analyses/ruminations, Luke!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 28, 2011, 09:39:27 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 28, 2011, 01:52:08 AM
That's no good. I will need extra large.

I was busy today, but this made me laugh when I read it hours and hours ago. Also thanks for the links to newspaper cuttings. I'll download them when I'm back home again (just leaving Amsterdam Central Station).

Luke's post was excellent and asked all the right questions and tried to answer them. Brian knew what he was about, so why use the orchestra the way he did? I remember a very good article in the HBS Newsletter about Brian's word-setting, where Brian appeared to avoid any easy or 'natural' solutions. It seems Brian hated the tried-and-tested in his mature period and - whether intentionally or spontaneously - sometimes went against the grain, of instruments, the human voice... In his songs he studiously avoids anything that could reek of easy emotion.

I think there is a strong puritanism at work in Brian, which ties in with that 'withholding' or holding-back our own Brian remarked upon earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 28, 2011, 02:24:16 PM
Just read the cuttings. Historic material! I wonder if the HBS has them... I had to smile at how the Penguin Stereo Record Guide characterises the grim, taut and warlike 22nd Symphony: The Symphonia Brevis, two brief but ambitious movements plus epilogue, represents Havergal Brian's later work at its most enjoyable, undisciplined in its way, but with an unmistakable flavour.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on August 28, 2011, 02:59:51 PM
If the 'Gothic' CD is coming out next month, I had better start writing my MusicWeb review now...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 28, 2011, 03:09:50 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 28, 2011, 02:59:51 PM
If the 'Gothic' CD is coming out next month, I had better start writing my MusicWeb review now...

Next month? I don't know how quick Hyperion will be in 'rushing out' The Gothic. When I checked their website last week, I didn't see HB among the forthcoming releases. Or did I miss something?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on August 28, 2011, 03:31:12 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 28, 2011, 03:09:50 PM


Next month? I don't know how quick Hyperion will be in 'rushing out' The Gothic. When I checked their website last week, I didn't see HB among the forthcoming releases. Or did I miss something?

I thought somebody used the phrase "next month" a few pages ago in this thread based on "inside information." Perhaps they mean October?
EDIT: October's listed online too... perhaps it's a 'surprise' or a false rumor...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on August 28, 2011, 06:34:51 PM
I expect the next month refers to the program note writer's deadline (the source of the rumour gives the clue to the identity of the writer!), and the intention of the CD company would be to capitalise on sales before Christmas. So while the September and October releases already appear finalised, the Gothic may appear in the upcoming lists rather late in the piece, once cover art and other details are finalised.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on August 28, 2011, 11:49:18 PM
John,
The Brian "Legend" LP is on the Auracle label, it was generally available for sometime but I don't think that it ever came out on CD, it also has works by Rawsthorne, Walton and Arnold.

As you're up for it! I have a rarish Opera Viva double LP containing substantial excerpts from Holst's opera "Sita", Naylor's "the Angelus", Ethel Smyth's "the Boatswain's Mate", Delius' "Irmelin", Boughton's "the Immortal Hour", Stanford's "Much Ado About Nothing", along with smaller pieces by Arthur Goring Thomas, Sir Frederick Hymen Cowen, Hamish MacCunn, Baron Frederick d'Erlanger and Frederick Corder.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 29, 2011, 12:15:23 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 28, 2011, 02:24:16 PM
Just read the cuttings. Historic material! I wonder if the HBS has them... I had to smile at how the Penguin Stereo Record Guide characterises the grim, taut and warlike 22nd Symphony: The Symphonia Brevis, two brief but ambitious movements plus epilogue, represents Havergal Brian's later work at its most enjoyable, undisciplined in its way, but with an unmistakable flavour.

If the HBS doesn't have them please feel free to send them the links. Glad you liked them. Any luck on the R&R 10/21 JSTOR review yet or am I doomed to the attic?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 29, 2011, 12:20:50 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on August 28, 2011, 11:49:18 PM
John,
The Brian "Legend" LP is on the Auracle label, it was generally available for sometime but I don't think that it ever came out on CD, it also has works by Rawsthorne, Walton and Arnold.

As you're up for it! I have a rarish Opera Viva double LP containing substantial excerpts from Holst's opera "Sita", Naylor's "the Angelus", Ethel Smyth's "the Boatswain's Mate", Delius' "Irmelin", Boughton's "the Immortal Hour", Stanford's "Much Ado About Nothing", along with smaller pieces by Arthur Goring Thomas, Sir Frederick Hymen Cowen, Hamish MacCunn, Baron Frederick d'Erlanger and Frederick Corder.

Steve, just send me the lot and I will make the transfers. Delighted that the HB suite is in proper stereo. Probably a week's work but I'm up for it. I wonder how much interest this will generate on here?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 29, 2011, 12:26:09 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 29, 2011, 12:20:50 AM
Steve, just send me the lot and I will make the transfers. Delighted that the HB suite is in proper stereo. Probably a week's work but I'm up for it. I wonder how much interest this will generate on here?

Steve, just read your email:
There is also the LP of Holst's "A vision of Dame Christian" that I mentioned on the messageboard which is very rare, only 200 copies were made and were, supposedly only available to the relatives of the pupils of St Paul's Girl's School!
Please send this as well. Never heard of it but sounds as if it's worth saving to CD.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 29, 2011, 12:29:31 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 29, 2011, 12:15:23 AM
If the HBS doesn't have them please feel free to send them the links. Glad you liked them. Any luck on the R&R 10/21 JSTOR review yet or am I doomed to the attic?


You're doomed...  :o  I have looked and not just on JSTOR. The problem is, I think - R&R isn't an academic journal.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on August 29, 2011, 01:02:35 AM
Greetings, all.

Been following this thread for a while; great reading!

Would anyone object to me extracting some of the pithier contributions in this fascinating thread for the HBS newsletter?

There are some ex-HBS members here? And at least one active momber (morning, Johan!) - what about rejoining?  ;)

Martyn
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 29, 2011, 01:11:13 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 29, 2011, 12:29:31 AM

You're doomed...  :o  I have looked and not just on JSTOR. The problem is, I think - R&R isn't an academic journal.

Slice of toast followed by the attic it is then.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 29, 2011, 01:32:34 AM
I just hope you've got a normal sized trapdoor (for you're attic). Mine was obviously designed for a midget. I can just about wriggle through,an arm at a time. What was the builder thinking off?
Or maybe you've got a nice posh staircase?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 29, 2011, 03:24:11 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 29, 2011, 01:32:34 AM
I just hope you've got a normal sized trapdoor (for you're attic). Mine was obviously designed for a midget. I can just about wriggle through,an arm at a time. What was the builder thinking off?
Or maybe you've got a nice posh staircase?

I am very posh indeed but the ladder is a damaged and dangerous aluminium effort. I risk my life for the HB cause.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 29, 2011, 03:26:02 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on August 29, 2011, 01:02:35 AM
Greetings, all.

Been following this thread for a while; great reading!

Would anyone object to me extracting some of the pithier contributions in this fascinating thread for the HBS newsletter?

There are some ex-HBS members here? And at least one active momber (morning, Johan!) - what about rejoining?  ;)

Martyn

Martyn,
If any of my ramblings are any use to you please go ahead.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on August 29, 2011, 03:29:42 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on August 29, 2011, 01:02:35 AM
Greetings, all.

Been following this thread for a while; great reading!

Would anyone object to me extracting some of the pithier contributions in this fascinating thread for the HBS newsletter?

There are some ex-HBS members here? And at least one active momber (morning, Johan!) - what about rejoining?  ;)

Martyn

I'm an ex-member, and would very much like to rejoin; simply haven't got around to it yet, but I will.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 29, 2011, 03:34:22 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on August 29, 2011, 01:02:35 AM
Greetings, all.

Been following this thread for a while; great reading!

Would anyone object to me extracting some of the pithier contributions in this fascinating thread for the HBS newsletter?

There are some ex-HBS members here? And at least one active momber (morning, Johan!) - what about rejoining?  ;)

Martyn


Hi, Martyn! I am glad the HBS has found its way to this place (I know John Grimshaw is reading along, too), as it is becoming the realtime HB spot in cyberspace... I must admit I am writing so much about Brian here that it is almost too much trouble to do the same thing for the Newsletter. As far as I am concerned, start digging for the gold...  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on August 29, 2011, 06:28:39 AM
Thanks, all - and thanks for the cuttings, John. They will go into the members' online archive.

I will indeed start mining, Johan - there is a lot of fascinating discussion in here that I'm sure that the membeship would like to see.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 29, 2011, 06:56:32 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on August 29, 2011, 06:28:39 AM
Thanks, all - and thanks for the cuttings, John. They will go into the members' online archive.

I will indeed start mining, Johan - there is a lot of fascinating discussion in here that I'm sure that the membeship would like to see.

;)

Here's the link to the press cuttings. There are now 11 in total - I found another 3 this morning after a successful mining expedition in the attic. I emailed this to Johan but forgot to post it on the forum.
http://www.mediafire.com/?5dhod35t7b4yb
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on August 29, 2011, 10:43:09 PM
Hi Martyn,
I am an ex member :( Can I suggest that you make the society directly joinable online? I would rejoin straight away and I'm certain you would get many more people joining that way.
Just a thought :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 29, 2011, 10:49:40 PM
Morning, Steve! But you CAN join online. Go to www.havergalbrian.org. You can order things there, make a donation and join the Society, using PayPal. If that is what you mean by 'joining online', of course...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on August 29, 2011, 11:40:47 PM
Hi Johan,
But joining is not straightforward >:(
It is implied that, first, one has to write a letter containing a cheque. Perhaps the HBS messageboard could make the method of joining online a little clearer?
Why not have an online membership application form? ......Perhaps to keep the riff-raff, like me, away? :D

Steve
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 29, 2011, 11:44:35 PM
Quote from: Hattoff on August 29, 2011, 11:40:47 PM
Hi Johan,
But joining is not straightforward >:(
It is implied that, first, one has to write a letter containing a cheque. Perhaps the HBS messageboard could make the method of joining online a little clearer?
Why not have an online membership application form? ......Perhaps to keep the riff-raff, like me, away? :D

Steve


But if you click on Donate, you get to a new screen, where you can either use PayPal or one of several credit cards. IF I'm not mistaken... But I agree - it could perhaps be made easier. But that's not for me to decide!


Edit: I now see that the button is for renewing your subscription, not joining... Hm.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on August 29, 2011, 11:58:19 PM
Thanks Johan,
Can I point out though that, that is not at all obvious from the HBS site itself? Perhaps Im a bit dense? but surely dense people shouldn't be excluded from the wonder that is William Havergal Brian :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 30, 2011, 12:01:21 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on August 29, 2011, 11:58:19 PM
Thanks Johan,
Can I point out though that, that is not at all obvious from the HBS site itself? Perhaps Im a bit dense? but surely dense people shouldn't be excluded from the wonder that is William Havergal Brian :)
Steve, never mind getting involved in this mindless banter. Get those LPs packed up nicely and stick 'em in the post there's a good chap.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 30, 2011, 12:02:06 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on August 29, 2011, 11:58:19 PM
Thanks Johan,
Can I point out though that, that is not at all obvious from the HBS site itself? Perhaps Im a bit dense? but surely dense people shouldn't be excluded from the wonder that is William Havergal Brian :)


See my Edit, Steve! Let's wait for Martyn to clarify matters: whether the button can be used for new members joining, too, or just old members renewing their subscription...


Quote from: John Whitmore on August 30, 2011, 12:01:21 AM

Steve, never mind getting involved in this mindless banter. Get those LPs packed up nicely and stick 'em in the post there's a good chap.


:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 30, 2011, 12:03:10 AM
Sharing an email that I sent to Johan a few mins ago. Any interest?

Mornin' Johan,
Just read your Youtube comment. I've also just finished re-editing The
Unknown Warrior. I've taken half a second out of the wobbly final chord at
the very end where HB is sitting in his chair. This always ruined the
moment! Nothing I can do about the slightly mangled tape during the storm
sequence but it's still better than the Youtube clips I uploaded. I will
send this and the 1998 LSSO Brian 10th reunion DVD to you but I need your
address please. If I post it to "HB fanatic, Delft" it might just get there
but it's not ideal. You've shared so much stuff with me over the years so
this is a fair exchange. I will post this on the forum. To offset my annual
LSSO website costs I would happily sell a few copies of these 2 DVDs to
other members at sensible prices. I will await a response.
John
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on August 30, 2011, 12:35:43 AM
Ooh er.
I shall go to the Post Office now :P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 30, 2011, 12:47:12 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on August 30, 2011, 12:35:43 AM
Ooh er.
I shall go to the Post Office now :P
Are you back yet?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on August 30, 2011, 03:09:44 AM
Steve,

Apologies if the intent of the website is confusing regarding membership; I'll attend to that right away. Johan is absolutely correct - the original intent of the PayPal button was to make joining or making subscriptions easier, although it can also be used for buying books, CDs etc. It's just a case of annotating what the payment is for in the appropriate box, and sending John Grimshaw an email to confirm that you've done it. No need for cheques - in fact I couldn't say with any certainty where my chequebook is any more!

I hear what you say about online forms and such; in fact that will be very much easier to accomplish once the new website goes live in a little while. We'll be able to do all sorts of things!

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 31, 2011, 12:48:40 AM
Have you all heard the Philip Jones recording of The Cenci fanfare? Here it is:

http://www.mediafire.com/?dzg9x50v2uv3l9h
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 31, 2011, 04:33:41 AM
Oh yes. Brief,but very imposing. Of course,there is more......
I remember borrowing the original LP from Haverfordwest library,back in the days when libraries stocked off beat repertory like that.
I'm afraid the other items on the LP bored me.
Philip Jones did a rather good  'Pictures at an Exhibition',didn't they?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 31, 2011, 07:20:36 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 31, 2011, 04:33:41 AM
Oh yes. Brief,but very imposing. Of course,there is more......
I remember borrowing the original LP from Haverfordwest library,back in the days when libraries stocked off beat repertory like that.
I'm afraid the other items on the LP bored me.
Philip Jones did a rather good  'Pictures at an Exhibition',didn't they?
Rather good? It was astonishing. The late great James Watson in full flow.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on August 31, 2011, 08:59:04 PM
Hyperion's November release list published and 'Gothic'-free. (So far.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on August 31, 2011, 10:32:04 PM
Congratulations, Martyn, on your new rôle as editor-elect of the Havergal Brian Society newsletter!

The absence of the Gothic from the proposed November discs from Hyperion is noted; my previous remarks give rise to the suspicion it will be in the December list. In the meantime, there are two new Brabbins discs (Somervell & Cowen piano concertos and Vaughan Williams & McEwen concertante works with viola): he is the new go-to man for the British romantic/early 20C repertoire!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 31, 2011, 11:02:37 PM
That'll be a Brian Christmas, then. (I notice we have two Martyn Bs in Philip's post - Becker and Brabbins )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 01, 2011, 12:06:04 AM
Quote from: Philip Legge on August 31, 2011, 10:32:04 PM
Congratulations, Martyn, on your new rôle as editor-elect of the Havergal Brian Society newsletter!

The absence of the Gothic from the proposed November discs from Hyperion is noted; my previous remarks give rise to the suspicion it will be in the December list. In the meantime, there are two new Brabbins discs (Somervell & Cowen piano concertos and Vaughan Williams & McEwen concertante works with viola): he is the new go-to man for the British romantic/early 20C repertoire!

Brabbins seems to be going the same way as other British conductors by spending his time in dusty cul de sacs mining a few gems here and there and then committing stuff to disc that is only for the specialist market. He, like Tod Handley before him, does a great service to the cause of British music but what we have never had is a world class conductor with the international clout to get these works exposed at the highest level on a regular basis. Rattle does a bit of Britten and Elgar (and Walton) but forget the rest. Berliners aren't going to turn out for Elgar, Vaughan Williams, Delius ( now THERE'S a composer) and Bliss. Since he left Birmingahm he's left the British works at home, hasn't he? I can never envisage a time when the Musikverein or the Concertgebouw resound to the music of Brian, Elgar, Walton or any other British composer to be brutal about it. Bernstein apparently liked what he saw of the Gothic but you have to judge people on what they do and not what they say. He did nothing. I have a love of Elgar but hearing his music in France is about as rare as England winning the World Cup. I've come to the conclusion that most of the music that means a lot to me isn't fit for the international market. British music seems to be marooned in Britain. A shame but not far from the truth. Discuss........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 01, 2011, 12:27:35 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 01, 2011, 12:06:04 AM
I've come to the conclusion that most of the music that means a lot to me isn't fit for the international market. British music seems to be marooned in Britain. A shame but not far from the truth. Discuss........

OK - I'll discuss.

My impression, as an American who likes a lot of British music and has lived in a lot of places (currently Russia), is as follows. Your above statement about British music being "marooned" in its home country is an exaggeration. Let's take one example: Elgar. For some reason, he gets played quite a lot here in Moscow. In the last few years, local forces have played the Enigma Variations, both concertos, one of the symphonies, the Piano Quintet, and just recently I heard a nice performance of the Violin Sonata as part of a chamber concert. In the USA, the major Elgar works get fairly frequent exposure - certainly Enigma and the two concertos figure most often, but if you're lucky you might hear one of the symphonies or something like Falstaff.

Music by Walton, Britten and Vaughan Williams also gets played, not as frequently as the top-tier composers, but it's certainly far from being shut out. When I was moving from Prague a few years ago, one of my regrets was that I had to miss the Czech Philharmonic playing VW 6th Symphony. And what about all those non-British conductors (Haitink, Slatkin, Zinman, Berglund, etc.) who perform this music?

What I do think is unjustly neglected is the music by the lesser-known composers like Bax, Rubbra, Simpson, Brian, Frankel, Arnold etc. But I think that stuff hardly gets performed even in Britain, right? So it's not just an international problem.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 01, 2011, 12:47:06 AM
Quote from: Velimir on September 01, 2011, 12:27:35 AM
OK - I'll discuss.

My impression, as an American who likes a lot of British music and has lived in a lot of places (currently Russia), is as follows. Your above statement about British music being "marooned" in its home country is an exaggeration. Let's take one example: Elgar. For some reason, he gets played quite a lot here in Moscow. In the last few years, local forces have played the Enigma Variations, both concertos, one of the symphonies, the Piano Quintet, and just recently I heard a nice performance of the Violin Sonata as part of a chamber concert. In the USA, the major Elgar works get fairly frequent exposure - certainly Enigma and the two concertos figure most often, but if you're lucky you might hear one of the symphonies or something like Falstaff.

Music by Walton, Britten and Vaughan Williams also gets played, not as frequently as the top-tier composers, but it's certainly far from being shut out. When I was moving from Prague a few years ago, one of my regrets was that I had to miss the Czech Philharmonic playing VW 6th Symphony. And what about all those non-British conductors (Haitink, Slatkin, Zinman, Berglund, etc.) who perform this music?

What I do think is unjustly neglected is the music by the lesser-known composers like Bax, Rubbra, Simpson, Brian, Frankel, Arnold etc. But I think that stuff hardly gets performed even in Britain, right? So it's not just an international problem.

I'm pleased to hear that Elgar is played in Moscow. I also accept that I have exaggerated a bit (but only a bit) - maybe to get a response. I also accept that Elgar does OK in the USA - there is a kinship between our two countries in many things, including music. Ormandy was pretty good in Elgar and Delius. I also accept that the 4 conductors you mention do take a shine to some British music but to be fair these blokes have strong links with the UK - Berglund and Bournemouth, Haitink with the LPO, Slatkin at the BBC etc. The point I make is that the very top tier internationally (conductors and orchestras) have next to nothing to do with British music except for Enigma and The Planets. Your point about the way we treat our composers in our own country is well made. Since his death Tippett has fallen off the map, Simpson has suffered a similar fate. Frankel is superb but most people know nothing about him. Malcolm Arnold was treated appallingly by the Brish musical press and the BBC.  Actually, I'm now feeing even more depressed - our composers are not only ignored overseas but neglected at home. Thanks for your response.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 01, 2011, 03:18:17 AM
LPs safely arrived from Steve (Hatoff). Just transferring the Brian Suite as I type. Watch this space for uploads later today. 3 other LPs he sent me will also prove to interesting especially the Brian Legend. More from me later.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 01, 2011, 03:43:01 AM
Excellent!


As for Delius - he is, with Brian, my personal favourite.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on September 01, 2011, 03:50:03 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 01, 2011, 12:06:04 AM
. . . Bernstein apparently liked what he saw of the Gothic but you have to judge people on what they do and not what they say. He did nothing.

Well, this being the Brian thread . . . in terms of Brian, sure, Lenny did nothing.  I think it only fair to Lenny to take in the bigger picture though, and in that context, this flat curtain line doesn't do the conductor anything like justice.  Do let's judge him on what he did, and he was very ambitious, and did a great deal.  Like any of us, I expect, he talked more than he did (the old saw, When all is said and done, there's a lot more said than done);  but his level of activity was truly voracious and energetic.  I think rather than resenting Lenny for having "neglected" Brian (he was Massachusetts-born, after all, and did a great deal for living US composers), one ought to give him credit (if only modest credit) for having paid some attention to Brian.

Carry on . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 01, 2011, 03:59:47 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 01, 2011, 12:47:06 AM
I'm pleased to hear that Elgar is played in Moscow. I also accept that I have exaggerated a bit (but only a bit) - maybe to get a response. I also accept that Elgar does OK in the USA - there is a kinship between our two countries in many things, including music. Ormandy was pretty good in Elgar and Delius. I also accept that the 4 conductors you mention do take a shine to some British music but to be fair these blokes have strong links with the UK - Berglund and Bournemouth, Haitink with the LPO, Slatkin at the BBC etc. The point I make is that the very top tier internationally (conductors and orchestras) have next to nothing to do with British music except for Enigma and The Planets. Your point about the way we treat our composers in our own country is well made. Since his death Tippett has fallen off the map, Simpson has suffered a similar fate. Frankel is superb but most people know nothing about him. Malcolm Arnold was treated appallingly by the Brish musical press and the BBC.  Actually, I'm now feeing even more depressed - our composers are not only ignored overseas but neglected at home. Thanks for your response.

Your points are very well made.

One of the other  issues of course is that for a long time time now British orchestras have tended to appoint principal conductors from overseas. If you take, say, the last 20 years or so you find Sir Colin Davis(London Symphony Orchestra 1995-2006), Sir Andrew Davis(BBC Symphony Orchestra 1989-2000), Sir Simon Rattle(City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra 1980-1998), Sir Mark Elder(Halle Orchestra 2000-), Mark Wigglesworth(BBC National Orchestra of Wales 1996-2000), Richard Hickox(BBC National Orchestra of Wales 2000-06) and, now, Donald Runnicles(BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra 2009-). Only Elder and Runnicles are currently in post.

Colin Davis has always been pretty selective in the British music he conducted, as has Rattle. Andrew Davis did quite a lot of the more obscure stuff. Elder does appear to be branching out now a little. Hickox...of course but, very sadly, he is no longer with us. Edward Gardner does not want to be pigeon-holed as a British music specialist.

The chances of Brabbins being appointed to a major British orchestra are not great. He is Principal Guest Conductor of the Royal Flemish Orchestra. I understand that he would like a European opera house but, for the time being, is obviously getting an increasing amount of work recording British music.

The deaths of conductors like Handley and Hickox(and Bryden Thomson earlier) has been a real tragedy for the cause of British music.

I agree about the treatment of British composers in general and Malcolm Arnold certainly can be cited......although I do have to say that Arnold also treated those who wanted to perform his music and tried to help his cause equally appallingly. One understands why this was and it was both tragic and very sad but it certainly did not help. If a composer turns on a conductor and orchestra and roundly abuses them then it is unlikely that they will rush to perform his music again.

(oh....sorry, Karl...nothing to do with HB I know but this thread does seem to be embracing the world ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on September 01, 2011, 04:14:34 AM
; )

Quote from: John Whitmore on September 01, 2011, 12:47:06 AM
I'm pleased to hear that Elgar is played in Moscow.

Of course, Elgar has long been an established classic . . . and while the Russians naturally keep their rich indigenous lit in regular (and excellent) practice, their high-level organizations are not parochial.  There was also the personal tie between Shostakovich and Britten (and in fact — curious to say, perhaps — the first performance of the War Requiem I ever attended was in the Grand Hall of the Philharmonic in St Petersburg).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 01, 2011, 04:21:35 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 01, 2011, 04:14:34 AM

Of course, Elgar has long been an established classic . . . and while the Russians naturally keep their rich indigenous lit in regular (and excellent) practice, their high-level organizations are not parochial

It's my impression that Elgar gets more play around here than Bruckner, which is interesting since elsewhere on the Continent the opposite seems to be true. Bruckner has never really caught on in Russia.

It turns out Rozhdestvensky is a big Vaughan Williams fan. I wish he'd get out and conduct more, tho' I don't blame him for taking it easy at his age.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 01, 2011, 04:35:28 AM
Quote from: Velimir on September 01, 2011, 04:21:35 AM
It's my impression that Elgar gets more play around here than Bruckner, which is interesting since elsewhere on the Continent the opposite seems to be true. Bruckner has never really caught on in Russia.

It turns out Rozhdestvensky is a big Vaughan Williams fan. I wish he'd get out and conduct more, tho' I don't blame him for taking it easy at his age.
Bruckner has never caught on in my house either!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 01, 2011, 04:37:51 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 01, 2011, 04:35:28 AM
Bruckner has never caught on in my house either!!!!!


Time to emigrate to Russia, then.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: not edward on September 01, 2011, 05:41:35 AM
Quote from: Velimir on September 01, 2011, 04:21:35 AM
It turns out Rozhdestvensky is a big Vaughan Williams fan. I wish he'd get out and conduct more, tho' I don't blame him for taking it easy at his age.
That could be interesting--offhand, I could easily imagine him being rather effective in the 4th, 6th and 9th.

(The man has always had a staggeringly large range of interests. Maybe if he were younger we could have got a Christmas Havergal from him!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 01, 2011, 05:55:38 AM
Quote from: edward on September 01, 2011, 05:41:35 AM
(The man has always had a staggeringly large range of interests. Maybe if he were younger we could have got a Christmas Havergal from him!)

One very useful thing he does here is promote composers who aren't played much in Russia - not just VW but Bruckner, Nielsen, Martinu, and plenty of others. I remember fondly a Nielsen mini-festival he led a few years ago.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 01, 2011, 06:27:33 AM
A new and interesting take on The Gothic by Erik Klackner:


http://klacknermusic.wordpress.com/2011/08/30/havergal-brian-epic/ (http://klacknermusic.wordpress.com/2011/08/30/havergal-brian-epic/)


"From the perspective of a recording 5600 miles and a month and a half away, I did not get the sense of musical frustration that many commentators have noted; there weren't many points of great release, but there were at least a few spots where the music really exploded"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 01, 2011, 07:23:05 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 01, 2011, 04:37:51 AM

Time to emigrate to Russia, then.

I might just  do that. Is the beer any good? Anyway after a hard day's restoration I can now share the Heriot School LP with you all. Many thanks Steve!! The surfaces were a bit rustly but I think the result is better than the previous transfer of the 4th English Suite - much brighter. The surprise item on here is the Arnold Grand Grand Overture complete with floor polishers and vacuum cleaners. Utter chaos and the kids do a great job with it. I have also included artwork using the original LP sleeve. So here it is:
http://www.mediafire.com/?2iztk43jkn7bn
I'm now putting finishing touches to the Legend performance and the good news is that the LP sound is superb and the clicks can be removed. I will be back later.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on September 01, 2011, 07:26:42 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 01, 2011, 07:23:05 AM
I might just  do that. Is the beer any good?

Stepan Razin was good when I was in St Petersburg.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on September 01, 2011, 08:12:13 AM
Well done John, that's a lot, lot better. I have never heard the music so clearly, even when I had a decent record deck, amplifier and speakers.
Comparison, it's as if I were at a concert and suddenly realised that I had my fingers in my ears and took them out.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 01, 2011, 08:18:16 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on September 01, 2011, 08:12:13 AM
Well done John, that's a lot, lot better. I have never heard the music so clearly, even when I had a decent record deck, amplifier and speakers.
Comparison, it's as if I were at a concert and suddenly realised that I had my fingers in my ears and took them out.


Exactly. It is as if you are there.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 01, 2011, 08:49:29 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 27, 2011, 05:34:08 AM
Really? Well,I'm not suprised,in a way. I wouldn't have thought allot of stuff that good would get past him. Indeed,long before I began to post on this Message Board,I would actually refer 'Dundonnell's' posts when I was trying to find information about an unusual or neglected composer,or if I was choosing a recording. I used others,of course,but I remember his posts were very informative. They stood out from the crowd!
Must say,it would be nice to see that Daniel Jones reach a bit further than one page! Some new recordings or broadcasts would help!
Anyway..................

Sorry, missed this because I was away in London for the weekend.

So...very belatedly....blushes :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 01, 2011, 09:14:24 AM
Here's the second LP sent to me by Steve. It called English music for violin and piano (Auracle Records 1981). This sounds fabulous and it includes the Brian Legend. What a lovely piece. Vinyl sound at its best. CD artwork included in the download folder. Hope you enjoy it.

http://www.mediafire.com/?bz88cqrhxfhce
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on September 01, 2011, 03:39:53 PM
John - thank you for your transfers (and Hattoff for supplying the discs!). I am often leary about LP rips, or ones encoded in mp3, as they are often carried out by people who aren't up to the task, but the 4th English Suite sounds brilliant! Such a strange work too, for a bit of a Brian-outsider such as myself - it ends almost as soon as it begins.

Edit: Hmm, as anticipated, the Legend only succeeds in making me cross at Brian for not writing more chamber music. This would make such a perfect recital-filler, why don't people chuck this on at the end of an Ireland, Bax or Moeran disc?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 01, 2011, 10:54:21 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on September 01, 2011, 03:39:53 PM
John - thank you for your transfers (and Hattoff for supplying the discs!). I am often leary about LP rips, or ones encoded in mp3, as they are often carried out by people who aren't up to the task, but the 4th English Suite sounds brilliant! Such a strange work too, for a bit of a Brian-outsider such as myself - it ends almost as soon as it begins.

Edit: Hmm, as anticipated, the Legend only succeeds in making me cross at Brian for not writing more chamber music. This would make such a perfect recital-filler, why don't people chuck this on at the end of an Ireland, Bax or Moeran disc?
Thanks for your kind words. I like the suite - I posted earlier that it breathes the same air as Dream Children/Nursery Suite. Or at least it does to my ears. Attractive and unusual. I wish the movements were a bit longer to be honest. Steve (Hattoff) looked after his LPs so the transfers were quite painless despite the low cutting volume of the suite. The Legend is a good piece, awkwardly written in places (there's a shock!) and I've enjoyed encountering it. I agree that it could be used as a "stocking filler" so to speak with recitals of British violin music. Today I will be transferring Steve's Opera Viva double LP (Holst, Delius, Smythe etc). Uploads some time this afternoon.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on September 01, 2011, 11:19:37 PM
John has done a quite remarkable job with the Brian Legend LP, the sound quality is superb. There is something about the sound of the best vinyl that, even when transferred to digital, gives it an edge of warmth that makes it more alive and even more realistic (I smell a paradox there :)). I am more than pleased that I sent the LPs to John and am looking forward to the next one.

Agree with Lethe about the Brian, he crtainly had an individual and sometimes beautiful voice unlike Malcolm Arnold's piece which is a total plagiarism of Prokofiev, though perhaps it's some sort of hommage?

The Walton and Rawsthorne are well worth hearing too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: eyeresist on September 02, 2011, 02:02:56 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 01, 2011, 03:59:47 AM
Colin Davis has always been pretty selective in the British music he conducted, as has Rattle. Andrew Davis did quite a lot of the more obscure stuff. Elder does appear to be branching out now a little. Hickox...of course but, very sadly, he is no longer with us. Edward Gardner does not want to be pigeon-holed as a British music specialist.
...
The deaths of conductors like Handley and Hickox(and Bryden Thomson earlier) has been a real tragedy for the cause of British music.

Once again David Lloyd Jones is completely overlooked  :'(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 02, 2011, 02:14:39 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 02, 2011, 02:02:56 AM
Once again David Lloyd Jones is completely overlooked  :'(

The (perhaps unjust) fate of a Naxos conductor.

Quote from: John Whitmore on September 01, 2011, 07:23:05 AM
I might just  do that. Is the beer any good?

Russian beer's gotten a lot better in recent years.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2011, 03:43:07 AM
Talking about big,neglected, & possibly underrated, English choral works & Malcolm Arnold (who admired it) reminds to have another go at Lambert's 'Summers last will & testament'. The revival of which caused a minor stir some years ago.
I notice you're comment left on Erik Klackner's blog,Johan,excluded 'Das Siegeslied' from you're list of Brian masterworks?
  Incidentally,I recorded the Prom performance of Bruckners 8th on my dolby cassette deck. I couldn't help thinking of John while I listened to it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2011, 03:58:41 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 02, 2011, 03:43:07 AM
Talking about big,neglected, & possibly underrated, English choral works & Malcolm Arnold (who admired it) reminds to have another go at Lambert's 'Summers last will & testament'. The revival of which caused a minor stir some years ago.
I notice you're comment left on Erik Klackner's blog,Johan,excluded 'Das Siegeslied' from you're list of Brian masterworks?


Correct. I mentioned the works I think absolutely 'work' for anyone with ears and a sense of adventure: 1, 5, 6, 8, 10, 16, 27, 30. The Gothic - an amazing symphonic quest. 'Wine of Summer, No. 5, because it is compact, clear, understated yet poetic. No. 6 - almost the same reasons as No. 5, though the emotion is stronger. No. 8, because it's 'the quintessential Havergal Brian symphony' (Malcolm MacDonald), one of his richest creations. No. 10, because it seems to attain the level No. 8 was working toward. No. 27, because it is the best expression of old age, raging against the dying of the light (to these ears), moving and violent. No. 30, because - as with No. 10 - it reaches a higher level, and the ending is the most triumphant thing Brian ever wrote (spiritually far greater than the festive ending of No. 9 and also less aggressive than the tremendous Coda of No. 16).


As for Das Siegeslied - I am still not convinced by it. Perhaps a better performance will sway me, but I find the circularity of the structure too easy (the opening march returning in the Coda). And this in spite of all the claims MM makes for it (indictment of totalitarianism et cetera)...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on September 02, 2011, 04:02:50 AM
It could depend on the pre-disposition of the listener to this type of work - being a fan of pieces such as Max Reger's Psalm 100 goes a long way towards making Das Siegeslied an enjoyable singfest.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2011, 04:07:58 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on September 02, 2011, 04:02:50 AM
It could depend on the pre-disposition of the listener to this type of work - being a fan of pieces such as Max Reger's Psalm 100 goes a long way towards making Das Siegeslied an enjoyable singfest.


Yes. And I do enjoy Das Siegeslied. I don't yet rate it as highly as some of the others, that's all...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on September 02, 2011, 04:11:56 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2011, 04:07:58 AM
Yes. And I do enjoy Das Siegeslied. I don't yet rate it as highly as some of the others, that's all...

Indeedie, there's nothing particularly "vital" about it, and that is a word that I associate with Brian at his best.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2011, 04:14:15 AM
I concur with you're choices. Although, No's 3 and 7 are two of my favourites,they are,it seems to me,problematic,in various ways. Though,that only adds to their fascination,for me. No 4 sounds very impressive in the Poole performance,but I always have a problem with the final movement,which seems to go on far too long for it's own good. There are allot of marvellous ideas,but also a proprtion of empty tub thumping bombast as well,which worries me. Still,that wonderful final surge of voices right at the end is well worth the wait. I remember on my old Dolby cassette copy,you actually had to turn the tape over (at that point) to hear it!
  On the plus side,I do think the second movement,on it's own,is one of Brian's most individual and awe inspiring creations.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 02, 2011, 04:25:05 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 02, 2011, 03:43:07 AM
  Incidentally,I recorded the Prom performance of Bruckners 8th on my dolby cassette deck. I couldn't help thinking of John while I listened to it!

How do you know it was the 8th? They all sound the same and as dull and turgid as each other. I had a clapped out old car that stopped and started all the time like Bruckner. Off we went and all was well. Then it stalled. Then off it went again. Drove me mad.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2011, 04:25:28 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on September 02, 2011, 04:11:56 AM
Indeedie, there's nothing particularly "vital" about it, and that is a word that I associate with Brian at his best.


Good point. In his best pieces you feel a tremendous sense of urgency. Das Siegeslied sounds like the work of a state composer without a state.


Quote from: cilgwyn on September 02, 2011, 04:14:15 AM
I concur with you're choices. Although, No's 3 and 7 are two of my favourites,they are,it seems to me,problematic,in various ways. Though,that only adds to their fascination,for me. No 4 sounds very impressive in the Poole performance,but I always have a problem with the final movement,which seems to go on far too long for it's own good. There are allot of marvellous ideas,but also a proprtion of empty tub thumping bombast as well,which worries me. Still,that wonderful final surge of voices right at the end is well worth the wait. I remember on my old Dolby cassette copy,you actually had to turn the tape over (at that point) to hear it!


I love 3 and 7, too. But we need more performances to make them realise their full potential (both CD recordings, Friend and Mackerras, are not as good as the BBC radio performances by Pope and Newstone)... Yes, that final movement of Das Siegeslied is too long and too mechanical in its structure, though there are some very exciting moments there!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: eyeresist on September 02, 2011, 04:27:17 AM
Quote from: Velimir on September 02, 2011, 02:14:39 AM
The (perhaps unjust) fate of a Naxos conductor.
Fine recordings of Bliss, Bax, Dyson, Sullivan, Lambert, Moeran, Alwyn, Rawsthorne, Holst (though his Planets wasn't great), Vaughan Williams, Delius, Stanford, Walton.... What does the poor fellow have to do?

Okay, that's enough - apologies for off topic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2011, 04:33:36 AM
When they do record No's 3 & 7 again I hope it's not Naxos! My dream label would be Chandos,but I get a feeling they're not very keen on Brian.
The final movement of Das Siegeslied is very rum-ti-tum. Almost like A British answer to Khatchaturian at his worst,although,according to John,Khatchaturian doesn't have a best!
I'm referring to the bombast,I hasten to add. Whatever you say about Brian's music,it doesn't sound Armenian!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2011, 04:43:35 AM
If there is one symphony or work by Brian that I doesn't hold my attention all the way through,No 4 is definately THE one!
John,I'll have a look at the cassette again just to make sure it's Bruckners 8th!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 02, 2011, 04:48:52 AM
Sorry to go off topic but the Hattoff collection goes on. This the double LP issued by Opera Viva in 1985. There's some lovely stuff on here by Holst, MacCunn, Erlanger, Corder, Delius, Boughton, Stanford, Thomas and Cowan. My own particular favourite is Ethel Smyth's Boatswain's Mate - very touching. The recording was made with a single Calrec soundfield microphone (as used by Unicorn) and sounds wonderful. This can be burned onto 2 CDs (CD 1 tracks 1 to 6 and the remainder on CD2). Artwork and track listings are included. You will enjoy this but please be warned that the orchestral playing is only adequate at best:
http://www.mediafire.com/?p0bpcig08kub6
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2011, 04:56:36 AM
Don't apologise. I was doing a bit of tub thumping myself. I've always fancied hearing a bit more of 'The Boatswains Mate'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 02, 2011, 06:51:42 AM
Quote from: eyeresist on September 02, 2011, 02:02:56 AM
Once again David Lloyd Jones is completely overlooked  :'(

Not if my cd shelves are any indication ;D

But, I agree, I should have mentioned him.  :-[ It's just that I don't see him recording much say a decade from now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 02, 2011, 07:17:23 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 02, 2011, 04:33:36 AM
When they do record No's 3 & 7 again I hope it's not Naxos! My dream label would be Chandos,but I get a feeling they're not very keen on Brian.
The final movement of Das Siegeslied is very rum-ti-tum. Almost like A British answer to Khatchaturian at his worst,although,according to John,Khatchaturian doesn't have a best!
I'm referring to the bombast,I hasten to add. Whatever you say about Brian's music,it doesn't sound Armenian!
Khachaturian at his worst is the same as Khachaturian at his best. Pure bilge.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 02, 2011, 07:20:38 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 02, 2011, 07:17:23 AM
Khachaturian at his worst is the same as Khachaturian at his best. Pure bilge.

You don't mince your words do you :D

Khachaturian and Bruckner :o Nor there's a couple ;D

The Khachaturian 3rd Symphony is-probably-the worst symphony ever composed....agreed.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2011, 07:27:41 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 02, 2011, 07:20:38 AM
You don't mince your words do you :D

Khachaturian and Bruckner :o Nor there's a couple ;D

The Khachaturian 3rd Symphony is-probably-the worst symphony ever composed....agreed.


I love Khatchaturian's Second Symphony... I expect a thunderbolt from Delph!  ;D


John, I have listened to a few of the operatic fragments by Opera Viva - interesting stuff!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on September 02, 2011, 07:28:40 AM
Makes even me almost want to defend Khatchaturian . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 02, 2011, 07:33:57 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 02, 2011, 07:28:40 AM
Makes even me almost want to defend Khatchaturian . . . .
I'll back off a bit. The Sabre Dance is OK.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on September 02, 2011, 07:34:45 AM
Sure, they think so in the sports bars of Buffalo, New York.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on September 02, 2011, 08:11:04 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 02, 2011, 07:17:23 AM
Khachaturian at his worst is the same as Khachaturian at his best. Pure bilge.

Angryface! The Sabre Dance I think near garbage-level, but the three concertos are very good. And you can't possibly accuse this (my favorite Khach) of bombast. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRD43FAiHPY)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2011, 09:07:35 AM
I thought the worst symphony ever was Lev Knipper's Fourth?!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2011, 09:11:12 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 02, 2011, 09:07:35 AM
I thought the worst symphony ever was Lev Knipper's Fourth?!!!


Symphony No. 4 "Poem for the Komsomol Fighters" in D major after Guseyev for soloists, chorus and orchestra opus 41


But:


According to secret documents revealed in 2008, during the Second World War a secret plan existed in the USSR designed by the Kremlin in case that Moscow would fall into Nazi hands. Under the elaborate plan, ballerinas and circus acrobats were armed with grenades and pistols and ordered to assassinate German generals if they attempted to organise concerts and other celebrations upon taking the city. Lev Knipper was charged with the responsibility of killing Hitler if he got the opportunity.


He couldn't have been all that bad...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on September 02, 2011, 09:27:21 AM
Hell, I really like the 4th!  :) I think the score to that and no 3 are the Brian scores I would most like to get my mitts on, they are so full of fabulous, massive, complex, characterful sounds.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2011, 09:34:48 AM
Quote from: Luke on September 02, 2011, 09:27:21 AM
Hell, I really like the 4th!  :)  I think the score to that and no 3 are the Brian scores I would most like to get my mitts on, they are so full of fabulous, massive, complex, characterful sounds.


I wish I could beam up the score of the Third. Alas.


But do you really find the final movement of Das Siegeslied wholly convincing? I wish Brian hadn't returned to the opening march but had sprung something (apparently) new on us to end the work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on September 02, 2011, 09:46:56 AM
No, I think it is the only possible conclusion (though, I don't have Brian's genius, maybe he could have thought up something else). To me that opening is perfect at the beginning - in that its huge + blatantly simplistic confidence is undercut by the 'realistic' and modernist doubt and brutality that follows. Thatg is a real masterstrke. But there is a psychological truth in its return, too (to me, anyway), and a real horror, too. All that bloodthirstiness is swept away at the last minute by a return of the stupidly simplistic, triumphant Vision of Victory. The two different kinds of music are totally different, the sylistic contrast is gigantic and actually quite nasty, and therefore the return I find quite shocking, as if it is a kind of let's-not-tell-them-the-facts propaganda (even though we now know the facts), understood against what has come before, is startlingly effective.

Sorry, very garbled, I have to go out!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2011, 09:49:40 AM
Quote from: Luke on September 02, 2011, 09:46:56 AM
No, I think it is the only possible conclusion (though, I don't have Brian's genius, maybe he could have thought up something else). To me that opening is perfect at the beginning - in that its huge + blatantly simplistic confidence is undercut by the 'realistic' and modernist doubt and brutality that follows. Thatg is a real masterstrke. But there is a psychological truth in its return, too (to me, anyway), and a real horror, too. All that bloodthirstiness is swept away at the last minute by a return of the stupidly simplistic, triumphant Vision of Victory. The two different kinds of music are totally different, the sylistic contrast is gigantic and actually quite nasty, and therefore the return I find quite shocking, as if it is a kind of let's-not-tell-them-the-facts propaganda (even though we now know the facts), understood against what has come before, is startlingly effective.

Sorry, very garbled, I have to go out!


Garbled it may be (not), it's still interesting. I think I'm waiting for the conductor who can put your view across!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2011, 09:57:28 AM
I'm sure it could be interpreted more persuasively. The performances,so far,are not by major conductors are they?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 02, 2011, 11:55:54 PM
Here's the last Hattoff LP. A Holst Centenary from 1974. It includes Music for the Masque, Alcestis of Euripides and a talk by Imogen Holst. I understand that this was a limited edition recording produced for St. Paul's School. Steve thinks there were around 200 made but I can't confirm this one way or the other. Here is the link:
http://www.mediafire.com/?15lb1hy34e49o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 12:02:18 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 02, 2011, 11:55:54 PM
Here's the last Hattoff LP. A Holst Centenary  from 1984. It includes Music for the Masque, Alcestis of Euripides  and a talk by Imogen Holst. I understand that this was a limited edition recording produced for St. Paul's School. Steve thinks there were around 200 made but I can't confirm this one way or the other. Here is the link:
http://www.mediafire.com/?15lb1hy34e49o

Good work, John! You should post this in the Holst thread, too. It must be somewhere. When you look at the Composers board, you can see a link to a list Lethe made of all composers discussed on GMG, ordered by nationality.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 03, 2011, 12:15:50 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 12:02:18 AM


Good work, John! You should post this in the Holst thread, too. It must be somewhere. When you look at the Composers board, you can see a link to a list Lethe made of all composers discussed on GMG, ordered by nationality.
Morning Johan. I will go to the Holst forum but having taken a quick look there are pages and pages of composer threads. I might just pop over to the Khachaturian forum and then maybe Bruckner just to spice 'em up a bit. Would they welcome and enjoy my thoughts, insights and comments?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 12:23:32 AM
If you don't want to be tarred and feathered, I suggest you steer clear of those...  ;D


Here is the Holst thread, by the way:


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,431.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,431.0.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 03, 2011, 12:47:53 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 12:23:32 AM
If you don't want to be tarred and feathered, I suggest you steer clear of those...  ;D


Here is the Holst thread, by the way:


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,431.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,431.0.html)
I just posted this on the Holst forum:
I come in peace from the Havergal Brian forum. Here's something that may interest you:
Here's the last Hattoff LP. A Holst Centenary from 1974. It includes Music for the Masque, Alcestis of Euripides and a talk by Imogen Holst. I understand that this was a limited edition recording produced for St. Paul's School. Steve thinks there were around 200 made but I can't confirm this one way or the other. Here is the link:
http://www.mediafire.com/?15lb1hy34e49o


That's nice and polite. I wasn't rude about the Planets or anything.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 12:49:46 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 03, 2011, 12:47:53 AM
I just posted this on the Holst forum:
I come in peace from the Havergal Brian forum. Here's something that may interest you:
Here's the last Hattoff LP. A Holst Centenary from 1974. It includes Music for the Masque, Alcestis of Euripides and a talk by Imogen Holst. I understand that this was a limited edition recording produced for St. Paul's School. Steve thinks there were around 200 made but I can't confirm this one way or the other. Here is the link:
http://www.mediafire.com/?15lb1hy34e49o (http://www.mediafire.com/?15lb1hy34e49o)


That's nice and polite. I wasn't rude about the Planets or anything.


I knew you could do it.


And now I have work to do! I love to hear Imogen Holst's talk, by the way. But - later!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 03, 2011, 03:11:52 AM
That's very,VERY kind of you!
By the way,has anyone got the R3 broadcast of the complete 'Perfect Fool'? (The opera not the ballet!) Someone's got an off air tape somewhere,haven't they! I keep badgering Chandos to do it. Recently,they seemed to have shown some interest. In fact,I think it's just a question of cost, ie 'Give us the cash and we'll do it'!
'The Tigers' is another dream. But could they ever make a recording that would be as good as the R3 production? It was perfect.
Still,I have the download so what am I moaning about?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 03, 2011, 03:20:13 AM
It would be nice to hear a professional recording of Holst's 'Sita' one fine day.
Interesting how Holst,like Brian,is a composer whose output is overshadowed by one large (but not quite as large!!!) work.
(Okay,that's enough Holst,ed.)

By the way,does anyone know if there's a Laszlo Lajtha thread? I can't find one. I quite like some of his music & find symphonies 7-9 quite impressive.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 09:13:18 AM
You did it!!! Many thanks!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 03, 2011, 09:40:45 AM
Incidentally,I just noticed something really mind blowing. The HB thread wasn't started by you!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 09:49:36 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 03, 2011, 09:40:45 AM
Incidentally,I just noticed something really mind blowing. The HB thread wasn't started by you!!!!!

No, by my compatriot Harry, in June 2007. I joined this board a month later... Otherwise I certainly would have taken the initiative. I was glad to find other 'rabid' Brianites like Sarge and Luke (as you can read in this thread - 4 years ago!)

I certainly feel myself the landlord of this pub, The Happy Havergal...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 03, 2011, 10:01:43 AM
And,as Basil Fawlty might say, I'm "another (very) satisfied customer!"
Iechyd da!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on September 03, 2011, 10:05:54 AM
Many thanks to John again for bringing the Opera Viva and Holst to life. I rarely listened to the Holst as my re-recording was so bad, it really is a beautiful work.

Thanks to Cligwyn too, an unexpected bonus. I've heard Jones and Hoddinott on BBC radio 3 and I have a couple of pieces by Grace Williams, I'm looking forward to knowing them better.

Johan, I re-joined the HB society again so perhaps it is not so difficult (when you know how :-[) cheers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 10:09:52 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 03, 2011, 10:01:43 AM
And,as Basil Fawlty might say, I'm "another (very) satisfied customer!"
Iechyd da!


;D


Quote from: Hattoff on September 03, 2011, 10:05:54 AMJohan, I re-joined the HB society again so perhaps it is not so difficult (when you know how :-[ ) cheers.

Excellent! Welcome back!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 03, 2011, 10:18:06 AM
Fawlty Towers was an unfortunate comparison. I must have been thinking of the old,defunct,Radio 3 Message Board!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 10:21:23 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 03, 2011, 10:18:06 AM
Fawlty Towers was an unfortunate comparison. I must have been thinking of the old,defunct,Radio 3 Message Board!

I know it. But where I have been very active (from 2006 to 2008) was, wait for it, The Archers Message Board... But this is all very off-topic!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 03, 2011, 10:26:12 AM
The Archers. Okay,Mums The Word!!!!
As to the R3 Forum. I got the feeling I should have changed my nickname to 'Manuel'!
Anyway.........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 03, 2011, 10:34:31 AM
NB: If you want to hear more Daniel Jones please contact me. I think Dundonnell has offered. (No 4 is a personal favourite,especially that second movement).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2011, 10:35:51 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 03, 2011, 10:34:31 AM
NB: If you want to hear more Daniel Jones please contact me. I think Dundonnell has offered. (No 4 is a personal favourite,especially that second movement).

Listening to No. 2 - I love it... And it is akin to late Brian. Will go the Daniel Jones thread.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on September 03, 2011, 06:17:36 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 02, 2011, 11:55:54 PM
Here's the last Hattoff LP. A Holst Centenary from 1974. It includes Music for the Masque, Alcestis of Euripides and a talk by Imogen Holst. I understand that this was a limited edition recording produced for St. Paul's School. Steve thinks there were around 200 made but I can't confirm this one way or the other. Here is the link:
http://www.mediafire.com/?15lb1hy34e49o (http://www.mediafire.com/?15lb1hy34e49o)

John, I have yet to avail myself of the links/materials you so kindly provide, but I wanted to say: you are an animal. I mean this in the highest, worthiest sense.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 04, 2011, 06:01:05 AM
There were some very well sung excerpts of 'The Boatswains Mate',coupled I think,with her 'Mass' (?),some years ago. I though,at the time,I wouldn't mind hearing more. It sounded more individual than 'The Wrecker's',which strikes me as,not wanting to be too rude about it,not exactly subtle!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 04, 2011, 07:31:00 AM
Quote from: Albion on September 04, 2011, 12:47:51 AM
This Opera Viva LP set was one that I missed when it came out in the early-1980s and has been on my wishlist ever since.

Here is the review from Gramophone (August 1985) -

BRITISH OPERA. Various artists with Opera Viva Orchestra / Leslie Head. Opera Viva digital ® OV101/2 (two records, nas). Notes included. Limited edition. Recorded at a public concert in 1983.

Holst (ed. C. Matthews): SITA—closing scene from Act 3. MacCunn: JEANIE DEANS—Effies cradle song. Naylor: THE ANGELUS—duet from Act 2. Smyth: THE BOATSWAINS MATE— Suppose you mean to do a given thing. What if I were young again. d'Erianger: TESS—Angel Clare's aria. Corder: NORDISA—Minna's song. Delius: IRMELIN—closing scene. Boughton: THE IMMORTAL HOUR—closing scene. Stanford: MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING—ensemble from Act 1. A. G. Thomas: ESMERALDA - All is yet tranquil. . .What would I do for my Queen. Cowen: PAULINE—Dear Prince, Thy ring shall ever be.

This is an enterprising recording; everyone interested in British music should wish it well, for its proceeds will go to support future Opera Viva productions, threatened by chill economic winds. Opera Viva have given performances of many rare works and provide opportunities for young singers at that perilous stage between leaving college and obtaining a footing in a professional company. In these performances, recorded at a public concert in 1983, there are voices of whose future success one feels reasonably sure: the soprano Jeanette Wilson, for example, the mezzo Jenny Miller and the tenor David Skewes. As for the conductor, Leslie Head, his indefatigability in the cause of neglected British music is heroic.

The total rarity is the closing scene from Holst's Sita, composed in 1906 and placed third in a Ricordi competition. Two years later he composed the innovatory masterpiece Savitri but there's no hint of that kind of genius in Sita, even though the music is not without its attractions. The judges preferred Edward Naylor's The Angelus, and a duet from it gives us enough reason to revise their adjudication.

The ensemble from Stanford's Much Ado confirms the high estimate of this work held by the composer's pressure group, and what a charmer is the baritone aria from Goring Thomas's Esmeralda, persuasively sung by Mark Hoffman. For sheer professional craftsmanship in its command of pastiche, nothing on these LPs excels the aria from d'Erlanger's Tess. It's a long way from Hardy, but it explains why Zenatello sang it at Covent Garden in 1909, with Destinn as the heroine. The Ethel Smyth extract from The Boatswain's Mate has expertise too, but much more interesting, with its strange dark harmonies in the orchestra, is the song from MacCunn's Jeanie Deans. Now that there is a complete Irmelin on record (reviewed on page 268), it is good to have an alternative performance of the last scene, with Janine Osborne and David Skewes an appealing pair of lovers. Very likeable, too, is the elegant music from the 24-year-old Cowen's Pauline, rather Frenchified and written with a deft touch.

If the Delius, MacCunn and Stanford extracts are the only examples that make one eager to see the whole work staged, there is nothing here that does not refute that "land without music" gibe. The recordings are clear and, allowing for the conditions of public performance, well balanced.

Many thanks, indeed, for providing excellent transfers of some really fascinating material: these tantalising snippets indicate several neglected romantic British operas (especially Smyth's The Boatwain's Mate, Stanford's Much Ado About Nothing and Goring Thomas' Esmeralda) which some enterprising company should seriously investigate!

;D
I'm really pleased that some people are getting pleasure from my uploads of Steve's LPs. It was fun to do and I've also come across some music that I wouldn't otherwise have heard. Anyway I am going to give Daniel Jones a try.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 04, 2011, 07:31:54 AM
Listening to Imogen at the moment...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 04, 2011, 07:32:23 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 03, 2011, 06:17:36 PM
John, I have yet to avail myself of the links/materials you so kindly provide, but I wanted to say: you are an animal. I mean this in the highest, worthiest sense.
Woof!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 04, 2011, 07:33:30 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 04, 2011, 07:31:54 AM
Listening to Imogen at the moment...
Hi Johan, has a package arrived in Delft yet?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 04, 2011, 07:35:50 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 04, 2011, 07:33:30 AM
Hi Johan, has a package arrived in Delft yet?


No, I expect it tomorrow. Things are slow here in Delft - a Brian CD I ordered from the HBS for my cousin and myself arrived in Amsterdam on Friday and still has to arrive here...  >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 04, 2011, 07:38:42 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on September 03, 2011, 10:05:54 AM
Many thanks to John again for bringing the Opera Viva and Holst to life. I rarely listened to the Holst as my re-recording was so bad, it really is a beautiful work.

Thanks to Cligwyn too, an unexpected bonus. I've heard Jones and Hoddinott on BBC radio 3 and I have a couple of pieces by Grace Williams, I'm looking forward to knowing them better.

Johan, I re-joined the HB society again so perhaps it is not so difficult (when you know how :-[) cheers.
Am I going bonkers? I thought there was a download link for Daniel Jones on here but it's disappeared. Can somebody help?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 04, 2011, 07:57:45 AM
http://www.mediafire.com/?gwsteelf843vw# (http://www.mediafire.com/?gwsteelf843vw#)

Don't worry,you're not cracking up,John! (see above link)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 04, 2011, 08:29:48 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 04, 2011, 07:57:45 AM
http://www.mediafire.com/?gwsteelf843vw# (http://www.mediafire.com/?gwsteelf843vw#)

Don't worry,you're not cracking up,John! (see above link)
All downloaded. Will listen later. Many thanks.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 04, 2011, 08:34:56 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 03, 2011, 06:17:36 PM
John, I have yet to avail myself of the links/materials you so kindly provide, but I wanted to say: you are an animal. I mean this in the highest, worthiest sense.

I've just been lurking on the Tippett site and see that you are a visitor there too, Karl. I have a few Tippett recordings from my time with the LSSO (including the first performance of The Shires Suite from the Cheltenham Festival in 1970). Any interest in download links?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 04, 2011, 09:11:25 AM
Just in case the internet police come after me I am leaving the 3 LP restoration links (Opera Viva, English Violin Music and Holst Centenary) live on the public domain of this forum until next Friday and then they will be gone. Hope this leaves people sufficient time to access them. I will, of course, keep them in my own personal upload folder.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 04, 2011, 09:19:22 AM
I was just saying earlier. I was on a forum a while ago & they were discussing a record label. Suddenly the owner of the label popped up. They had a bit of a shock. Luckily they were being complimentary!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on September 04, 2011, 10:37:48 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 04, 2011, 09:19:22 AM
I was just saying earlier. I was on a forum a while ago & they were discussing a record label. Suddenly the owner of the label popped up. They had a bit of a shock. Luckily they were being complimentary!

That happened to me on Facebook! One of my friends mentioned Naxos and we all had a big argument about Naxos' corporate model - and then Klaus Heymann posted a comment  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on September 04, 2011, 01:14:52 PM
Tell Klaus to record Henning . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 04, 2011, 01:51:57 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 04, 2011, 10:37:48 AM
That happened to me on Facebook! One of my friends mentioned Naxos and we all had a big argument about Naxos' corporate model - and then Klaus Heymann posted a comment  ;D

Ooohhhh!

I had better start being nice about that wonderful company BIS and the marvellous work they have done for so many worthy composers, particularly Sibelius, Kokkonen, Aho, Holmboe, Saeverud, Alfven, Blomdahl........... :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 04, 2011, 02:36:11 PM
And I'd better be nice about Lyrita!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 05, 2011, 01:02:37 AM
This is totally off topic. I just got hold of these LPs from a friend who doesn't want them. I intend to make CD transfers. Just wondered if there is anything you would like me to upload to Mediafire. Here's the list:
Rach 2/Paray/Mercury
Elgar 1/Boult/Lyrita
Berlioz overtures/Previn/HMV
Previn showcase Ruy Blas, Classical symphony, Rosenkavalier waltzes RCA
Berlioz overtures/Boult/Pye
Sibelius 1 Collins/Decca
Tchaik and Sibelius Chung/Previn/Decca
Tchaik 5 Maazel/Decca
Honegger 3 and 4 Ansernet/Decca
Hurst conducts Wagner/Phase Four
Firebird, Borodin 2 Dorati/Mercury
Tchaik and Grieg concertos Friere/Kempe/CBS
Schubert Quintet in C/Saga (famous version)
Heldenleben Leinsdorf/RCA
Planets/Stokowski (tampered orchestration!)
Death and Trans, Francesca Maazel/Phase Four
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 05, 2011, 02:54:16 AM
Just received two items off Ebay. Marco Polo HB 17/32 and HB 4/12. Don't know the music at all so I have more stuff to judge good old Havergal on.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 05, 2011, 03:14:11 AM
You haven't heard 'Das Siegeslied'? We were talking about that a few pages back (p119). WE were saying that it was 'our' least favourite Brian work. Well,the Brian enthusiasts who were on there at the time,anyway. Main reason: allot of 'padding'. Although,it contains allot of tremendous music,it does have me drumming the old fingers in places,especially in the last movement. And if you think the Gothic is LOUD!
The Poole is without question,the best performance.

NB: Accidentally,posted some comments about Brian's piano music on the DJ thread!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on September 05, 2011, 06:18:40 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 04, 2011, 01:51:57 PM
Ooohhhh!

I had better start being nice about that wonderful company BIS and the marvellous work they have done for so many worthy composers, particularly Sibelius, Kokkonen, Aho, Holmboe, Saeverud, Alfven, Blomdahl........... :)

For me at least it's not at all taxing to be nice about BIS. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 05, 2011, 06:22:16 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 05, 2011, 03:14:11 AM
You haven't heard 'Das Siegeslied'? We were talking about that a few pages back (p119). WE were saying that it was 'our' least favourite Brian work. Well,the Brian enthusiasts who were on there at the time,anyway. Main reason: allot of 'padding'. Although,it contains allot of tremendous music,it does have me drumming the old fingers in places,especially in the last movement. And if you think the Gothic is LOUD!
The Poole is without question,the best performance.

NB: Accidentally,posted some comments about Brian's piano music on the DJ thread!!!
Just played the CD of the Brian 4th. It's this sort of thing that gets him a bad name. It outstays its welcome, has too many thick, loud passages and the opening and ending are so lame. Lots of very uninspiring pages and little that lingers in the memory. Nothing in it moved me in the slightest. It sounds like a chore to play as well. Amazed that Luke likes it but there we go. This is very much up there with the Khachaturian 3rd in my list of horrors. I need to cleanse my soul by playing some inspiring choral music - A Child of Our Time comes to mind. This new CD will be back on Ebay very shortly I think. I always try to give credit where I think it's due but this is a shocker.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 05, 2011, 08:08:31 AM
I played it allot when I was a teenager. Also,Khatchaturian & Gliiere's Ilya Murometz. They were all very loud & I would have them on FULL BLAST! Of course,I didn't have the Marco Polo recording,I had the Poole performance on a dolby cassette,which someone sent me in a nice brown package,through the post! I still feel the second movement is by far the best part of it,but in saying this,I have to confess I can't even remember the last time I played it. If you recall,there is a colossal,loud climax,somewhere near the middle. My parents must have got sick of hearing it. Imagine? A son who plays the Gothic AND das Siegeslied over and over again,FULL BLAST!
After that,(Das Siegeslied,Khatchaturian & Ilya Murometz) Led Zeppelin sounded like the Carpenters!
I still like Gliere,though. At least he seemed to know WHEN to be loud. But I must confess,it's his more modest 1st and 2nd that get played the most.
On the one occasion I played Das Siegeslied,at a party (!) someone asked me if I had put the tape on at the wrong speed. I remember feeling a bit upset.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2011, 08:12:12 AM
That's a sound trashing, John. That's okay. It's already a miracle you have come to like more of Brian than 'just' the Tenth Symphony!
   
  Let me (re-)state my current position. 'Das Siegeslied' isn't a 'nice' piece - it's sets a very aggressive Old Testament psalm and does so appropriately aggressively (but there are very gentle passages, too!) There have been a handful of performances, none of them satisfactory. The Naxos recording falls short, too. I know, because the live one by Poole does convince me in many places. So I am keeping an open mind about the quality of this symphony. Yes, I do have problems with it, though not with the choral part - the stridency and militarism are right. My problem is mainly with the final movement, as I said before. Luke explained why he thought it did hang together very well. I hope one day a conductor will ultimately convince me. I don't think the opening idea is one of Brian's strongest either, whatever Malcolm MacDonald may say ('Handelian grandeur'). To compare Brian's Fourth to Khatchaturian's Third as you do goes too far, that work is mindlessly triumphant, 'Das Siegeslied' certainly isn't.
   
  Before returning the CD to eBay, please try your luck with the very short Symphony No. 12!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 05, 2011, 08:21:51 AM
Regarding the Poole recording. Felicity Palmer was marvellous in the second movement. I think she should have had an award for bravery!
Call me Glenda Slag now,after saying the above;but I DO feel there IS allot of tremendous music there. If only Brian could have pared it down a bit ie 'sorted out the chaff from the wheat',as they say.
Mind you,if Testament ever release the Poole recording it will be a definate pre-order.
Unlike John,I'm going to have to give it another listen. But it won't be that horrible Marco Polo!
By the way,I should have made clear in the above post. I still admire the Gothic. It's Khatchaturian & Das Siegeslied I don't listen to much!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 05, 2011, 08:31:27 AM
Disagree,completely,with John on one point. The Second movement is one of Brian's best. And on second thoughts,just hearing bits of the Poole performance in my head. The best bits,particularly the choral writing,are so good they just keep drawing me on past the,not so good,bits. Which is another reason why I hardly ever put it on. With all it's faults,I nearly always end up listening all the way through.
But my goodness,that final movement doesn't half go on and on and on!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 05, 2011, 08:35:07 AM
Let god arise,let his enemies be scattered!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2011, 08:59:23 AM
Judge for yourselves. A recording of a live performance (1974) of Havergal Brian's Fourth Symphony, 'Das Siegeslied', in three movements. Felicity Palmer (soprano), BBC Singers, BBC Choral Society, Goldsmith's Choral Union, London Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by John Poole:



http://www.mediafire.com/?5v9qowgsg59m8 (http://www.mediafire.com/?5v9qowgsg59m8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 05, 2011, 09:16:50 AM
That's the one I kept playing full blast when I was a teenager! John's the one who needs to listen to it. Maybe this is THE performance that will change his mind.
I personally,can't stand the Marco Polo one & to cap it all,the Marco Polo recording has that wierd,'boxy' sound to it that seemed to afflict so many MP. The Poole recording is old,but it sounds clean and open,even on my ancient 25 year old cassette,which at my last try,still worked.
This would have been the recording on the Aries Lp,of course.
Once,I get some brand name cds sorted out I will transfer that upload from the pc. I think I was too harsh on it in my previous post. I can 'hear' allot of the Poole recording in my head now,and it 'sounds' very exciting.
If you can get through some of the less inspired parts of the finale,that final surge of the chorus,right at the end,is one of THE most thrilling sounds I have heard in any choral work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 05, 2011, 09:23:06 AM
I think that I ought to be giving Das Siegeslied another listen after the kicking it has had ;D  Not listened to it in yonks. :)

When I read a description like "a shattering, armour-plated juggernaut of a symphony" I instinctively feel that it must be just up my street. :) ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 05, 2011, 09:30:00 AM
All it needs is Bis to give it the Jon Leifs treatment!
Das Siegeslied. Jon Leifs meets William Walton!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 05, 2011, 09:34:47 AM
Oh...I see that I have the Marco Polo version on disc but for some reason didn't download the version conducted by Poole...which you say is much better!

Back to 'Unsung Composers' I go ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 05, 2011, 09:36:58 AM
The link for the Poole recording is on this 'page'!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 05, 2011, 09:41:12 AM
Eeekkk, so it is :-[

Cheers ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: thranx on September 05, 2011, 10:37:33 AM
I presume most of you have by now seen the all-too brief 8+ minutes of video I managed to shoot during the final rehearsal.  If not, go to:Go to http://vimeo.com/28335522   
Different sections of the symphony than are shown in the couple of clips posted on youtube.  I only wish there was more.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 05, 2011, 11:48:17 AM
Well, I know that I hadn't seen this video.

Having attended the actual performance and been lucky enough to have been sitting in the centre of the front row of the stalls ;D (next to Johan!!) it brings back the immensity of the undertaking and the sheer unadulterated courage of Martyn Brabbins to conduct such huge forces.

An evening I shall never forget :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2011, 11:54:23 AM
Quote from: thranx on September 05, 2011, 10:37:33 AM
I presume most of you have by now seen the all-too brief 8+ minutes of video I managed to shoot during the final rehearsal.  If not, go to:Go to http://vimeo.com/28335522 (http://vimeo.com/28335522)   
Different sections of the symphony than are shown in the couple of clips posted on youtube.  I only wish there was more.


Many thanks for this! I hadn't seen this before! (Btw, we shared a HBS lunch in Wardour St, if I'm not mistaken?!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on September 05, 2011, 11:57:00 AM
Brings it all back...

:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2011, 12:00:58 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on September 05, 2011, 11:57:00 AM
Brings it all back...

:D


... all too briefly...  :'(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: thranx on September 05, 2011, 02:41:35 PM
Hi J.Z.;
    Yes, lunch we did.  For the performance I was in the first row of the stalls in section J.  Best money I ever spent (well, there was that time in Papua New Guinea....).  I had thoughts of trying to video some of the actual performance.  I chose not to because a) I wanted to enjoy the entire performance, and b) my camera records to a flash drive and I feared some officious RAH type asking me to wipe the contents, which would of course have removed the rehearsal footage that I was able to shoot...before an officious RAH type asked me to desist, which is why there isn't more footage from said rehearsal. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2011, 02:57:05 PM
Quote from: thranx on September 05, 2011, 02:41:35 PM
Hi J.Z.;
    Yes, lunch we did.  For the performance I was in the first row of the stalls in section J.  Best money I ever spent (well, there was that time in Papua New Guinea....).  I had thoughts of trying to video some of the actual performance.  I chose not to because a) I wanted to enjoy the entire performance, and b) my camera records to a flash drive and I feared some officious RAH type asking me to wipe the contents, which would of course have removed the rehearsal footage that I was able to shoot...before an officious RAH type asked me to desist, which is why there isn't more footage from said rehearsal.


We (my sister and I, and my friend Colin and his nephew) were in the first row of the stalls in section K, so not too far away. My sister had brought her Canon with her. I was too immersed in the whole experience to want to film anything (like you), so I am glad she did... Until now I haven't received any warning to remove my two snippets. Perhaps because they're an excellent advertisement...


--Johan
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: thranx on September 05, 2011, 03:08:25 PM
Yes, fine advert for the BBC as well as Brian.  I would have protested a bit more about being asked to halt recording during the rehearsal, but I was in the company of other society members and didn't want to embarrass anyone or cause any trouble.  Now I rather wish I had. 

The original footage is actually even sharper.  1980 x something, shot at 1080i.  But it took over 8 hours to upload this reduced version properly, and would have taken days to do the even better version.  The sound is the same quality on both, however.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2011, 03:15:04 PM
Quote from: thranx on September 05, 2011, 03:08:25 PM
Now I rather wish I had.


;D 

QuoteThe sound is the same quality on both, however.


Yes, sound is very good. A pity you couldn't capture the apocalyptic climax of the Judex! So near, and yet so far...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2011, 03:20:55 PM
@Thranx I suddenly remember reading a good piece by you on 'Das Siegeslied'. Perhaps you saw that the work is a bit contested here, even among Brianites. Do you still stand by what you wrote? It is, indeed, Brian's most testosterone-filled work...


http://www.havergalbrian.org/sym4_1.htm (http://www.havergalbrian.org/sym4_1.htm)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: thranx on September 05, 2011, 05:08:42 PM
I do indeed.  Endless musical invention.  Bombastic in places?  Sure.  As if Cecil B. DeMille had decided to write music instead of direct films.  Scary because the 4th makes you want to run out and sign up to go fight for...whatever.  I'm surprised no gaming company has picked bits of it up to score one of the innumerable video games set in WWII.

Wellington's Victory, a certain piece by Tchaikovsky, the Kachaturian referenced here earlier, Ilya Mourometz...all bombastic.  Like 'em or don't.  But Brian is interested in far more than flag-waving (or trampling).  Siegeslied picks you up by whatever neural network you use to interpret the music you hear, shakes you around, bangs your head against the wall, and screams, "Goddamnit, this is what war is about!".  Or as William T. Sherman said, "It is well that war is so terrible lest we grow too fond of it."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2011, 12:10:03 PM
The second Toccata CD will be issued in October, according to the latest HBS Newsletter, which arrived today. One article was of special interest: Martyn Brabbins's 'Gothic' diary, starting in 2009, when the whole audacious plan was hatched. It makes for fascinating reading. Two quotes must suffice:


I spent the next few months getting to know the score:  a not insignificant task!  The piece is long and complex, with many technical and practical questions. Also there is an equally daunting number of interpretative questions.  Brian is not the most "user-friendly" of composers.  The conductor really has to work at making the piece fly off the page. HB's notorious antipathy to transitions is evident even in this early symphony and judging the correct (and practical) tempo proves a not insignificant task only really became clear to me when I got my hands on the orchestra.


And:

The many challenges of this symphony were surmounted with relative ease and equanimity, and Brian's imagination, particularly where orchestral balance is concerned, was proving extremely reliable.



It's a good time to be a Brianite!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2011, 01:03:32 PM
This final quote from the Newsletter is for Colin. Kerryanne Farrer is speaking, the so-called 'event producer' of the Brisbane 'Gothic':


I've learnt a lot (...) and meeting people like Malcolm MacDonald—he was just such a delightful, intelligent, passionate man.  Having met someone like Malcolm was a privilege which I would never had the opportunity otherwise.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 07, 2011, 01:19:23 PM
It's not exactly a Dundonnell scale find! But I have found a complete episode of R3 Composer of the Week Havergal Brian. It's Programme 2 & in between excerpts from The Tigers (Prologue),Symphonic Variations,the songs & a part song (?) 'He was a rat',that doesn't seem to be on any cd or Lp,there are allot of  very interesting conversations between Malcolm Macdonald & Donald McLeod. Some of them relating to the opera,itself. There are some problems towards the end of the programme,during the LSSO 10th. I was living in a cottage at the time & I didn't have a proper aerial & like a fool I start trying to 'improve' the reception. But most of the programme is suprisingly clear & in reasonably decent dolby stereo.
I was thinking,maybe,I could upload this. I have a dolby cassette deck I could use to transfer it?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2011, 01:21:50 PM
Sounds interesting! Is it on cassette?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 07, 2011, 01:25:38 PM
Yes. The cassette works perfectly. I understand you can connect a cassette player directly to a pc. But how do you 'join' the tape sides together. I think I would edit out the actual symphony!
The conversations relating to 'The Tigers' are very interesting. 'Le Grande Macabre',Schnitzler & Monty Python are all mentioned.
Of course,it's all old hat to you,but some people might be interested & I'll have something 'archival' to upload,even if it's not on a Dundonnell scale.
I think I also have excerpts from Brian's 'Prometheus Unbound' somewhere? Just for unacompanied choir? About three short pieces. What could they be? Was it an April Fool? Prometheus Unbound is lost!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2011, 01:28:40 PM
Here, alas, I can't help you.  :'(   I have never digitised a cassette in my life... But I know it can be done. Is there an expert in the house?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 07, 2011, 01:37:07 PM
Erm,only me (gulp),but I can read up about it. I want to be able to do this,anyway,mind. The conversations between MM & DM are very lively.
What of Those Prometheus excerpts,though?!!!! (see last post) What could they be?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2011, 01:42:48 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 07, 2011, 01:37:07 PM
Erm,only me (gulp),but I can read up about it. I want to be able to do this,anyway,mind. The conversations between MM & DM are very lively.
What of Those Prometheus excerpts,though?!!!! (see last post) What could they be?

Prometheus Unbound isn't lost. The full orchestral score is. There is a vocal score. Let's hope some sympathetic musician, who knows Brian's style through and through, will once tackle the Herculean task of orchestrating it...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 07, 2011, 01:46:19 PM
What are those short pieces then? They were broadcast on R3 a couple of years ago? About three years ago. Are the vocal parts,for want of a better word,'sing-able'? There are three very short pieces. The BBC Singers,I think.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on September 07, 2011, 01:46:43 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 07, 2011, 01:37:07 PMWhat of Those Prometheus excerpts,though?!!!! (see last post) What could they be?

An unaccompanied chorus from Act I and three semi-choruses (two unaccompanied, one with flute and harp) from Act II, Scene 2 are performable from the extant vocal score: these have had performances in 1983 and 2002.

Your recording is the BBC Singers conducted by Dominic Wheeler recorded on 27th March 2002 and broadcast on 26th May 2002.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2011, 01:49:44 PM
Thanks, Albion. I didn't have that info at the ready!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 07, 2011, 01:58:21 PM
I see. If I can find them I will have a listen to them. Sorry,I can't outdo Dundonnell & find the whole score in my attic! Although,what it would be doing in Wales!!!! If I do, I will add them on,just for the record!
Oh,I've just realised it's Albion. Thank you very much. I couldn't understand what those 'Prometheus Unbound' bits were. During the Composer of the Week programme,Malcolm Macdonald mentions the  'impracticalities' of some of Brian's suggestions,dryly referring to his use of an onstage elephant! Mind you,a recent production of A Handel opera incorporated a huge & quite spectacular blue elephant, A model one of course. As far as I can make out it was probably the best thing about the production.
They probably wouldn't allow a real live elephant anyway,now!

Albion,it's as if you flew in,like Superman!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 07, 2011, 02:02:59 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2011, 01:03:32 PM
This final quote from the Newsletter is for Colin. Kerryanne Farrer is speaking, the so-called 'event producer' of the Brisbane 'Gothic':


I've learnt a lot (...) and meeting people like Malcolm MacDonald—he was just such a delightful, intelligent, passionate man.  Having met someone like Malcolm was a privilege which I would never had the opportunity otherwise.

:) :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on September 07, 2011, 09:37:07 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 07, 2011, 01:58:21 PM
Malcolm Macdonald mentions the  'impracticalities' of some of Brian's suggestions,dryly referring to his use of an onstage elephant! Mind you,a recent production of A Handel opera incorporated a huge & quite spectacular blue elephant, A model one of course. As far as I can make out it was probably the best thing about the production.
They probably wouldn't allow a real live elephant anyway,now!

When Malcolm was in Brisbane I organised a highly successful banquet (at an Indian restaurant in West End which was inundated a month later by the floods) where he and John Grimshaw had an opportunity to meet some of the Gothic choristers (and inter alia, crossword fanatics like "Altarus" in The Times). Malcolm mentioned the elephant in The Tigers and I had to point out that in having written an aria (or part of one, at least) sung from the top of an elephant, Brian had been pipped to the post by some four hundred and fifty years. The first performance of Dufay's motet "Lamentatio Sanctæ Matris Ecclesiæ Constantinopolitanæ" reputedly had the cantus part sung by a woman riding atop of an elephant at a rather more extravagant banquet than the Brisbane affair, hosted in Lille in 1454 by Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy, in an attempt to recruit knights for a crusade to win back Constantinople!

Welcome to Allan! I heartily agree with your article on The Armour-Plated, Sabre-Rattling Fourth Symphony. It speaks directly and nakedly to that ancient, reptilian part of the brain that wants to go out as the Vikings reputedly did, to rape, loot, and pillage one's neighbouring countries. I think it's a great work, and I love it to death, but the visceral reaction it causes is, as you put it, schizophrenic: the unabashed magnificence of such vitriolic, over-powering music is undeniable, but when you consider the meaning of the horrific text that is being glorified in such a manner, quite independently of the known appropriation of Luther's anti-Semitic diatribes by the Third Reich, one receives a violent sensation of severe intellectual dislocation between the form and its content. That Brian can simultaneously present that conflict, while damningly critiquing it in the same art work, I think is a huge achievement.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 07, 2011, 10:50:40 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 07, 2011, 01:25:38 PM
Yes. The cassette works perfectly. I understand you can connect a cassette player directly to a pc. But how do you 'join' the tape sides together. I think I would edit out the actual symphony!
The conversations relating to 'The Tigers' are very interesting. 'Le Grande Macabre',Schnitzler & Monty Python are all mentioned.
Of course,it's all old hat to you,but some people might be interested & I'll have something 'archival' to upload,even if it's not on a Dundonnell scale.
I think I also have excerpts from Brian's 'Prometheus Unbound' somewhere? Just for unacompanied choir? About three short pieces. What could they be? Was it an April Fool? Prometheus Unbound is lost!
Send me the the cassette if you like.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2011, 12:56:55 AM
Thanks for your fascinating elephantine information, Philip!


As for the Fourth: I hope for a performance that will do it full justice. Again, if a conductor (Brabbins?!) can mould the final movement so that it sounds completely inevitable, my doubts will have been quelled. I now think that the 'dipping foot in enemies' blood' passage goes on too long and that both the recapitulation of the final movement's opening material and the return of the opening theme of the work as a whole are more mechanical than I am used to in Brian. Compared with the structural adventurousness of the final movement of 'The Gothic', that counts as a minus (for me).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 08, 2011, 03:14:58 AM
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7604/smallelephant.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-09-08
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 08, 2011, 03:20:00 AM
Handels Tamerlano. That's the Blue elephant. They could use one like that in The Tiger's,perhaps,but not blue!!! Trying to work out how to do that took allot of trouble. Why is my user name for image shack visible,if it is,though? And can't I just upload directly from my Picture or Documents folder.
Quite a nice elephant,though!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2011, 03:21:21 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 08, 2011, 03:20:00 AM
Handels Tamerlano. That's the Blue elephant. They could use one like that in The Tiger's,perhaps,but not blue!!! Trying to work out how to do that took allot of trouble. Why is my user name for image shack visible,if it is,though? And can't I just upload directly from my Picture or Documents folder.
Quite a nice elephant,though!


Nice pic!


Only when you're a paying member of GMG can you upload from your computer...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 08, 2011, 03:29:50 AM
Oh,I see,some of you are subscribers? I'll have to look more closely at the small print!
This photo proves that the elephant problem could be solved. Times have changed for Jumbo since Dufay & Handels,day. Of course,if you could actually ask one? A showbiz inclined Elephant might possibly give his consent!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 08, 2011, 03:54:58 AM
All this talk of Das Siegeslied is getting to me,so it's going on,now! After a couple of hours of Hovhaness (and I DO like him at his best) the pounding march rhythms and loud decibels may actually come as light relief!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2011, 03:56:40 AM
Nothing like a good Nuremberg rally to cleanse the system.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 08, 2011, 04:20:35 AM
A couple of hours of tam tams,gongs and gamelans & you can't wait to sign up!
(NB No offence intended!!!!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2011, 04:24:32 AM
None taken. Game(lan) on!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 08, 2011, 04:51:59 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 07, 2011, 10:50:40 PM
Send me the the cassette if you like.
Thanks,but I think it would be a good idea if I tried to do this myself.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on September 08, 2011, 05:37:15 AM
cilgwyn,
Use Audacity: here http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

Just connect your cassette player's headphone socket, by cable (you might have to buy one), to the line in socket on your computer and use Audacity to record your files in real time. Then you can edit them at your leisure and export them as mp3s or whatever.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 08, 2011, 06:20:51 AM
Thank you. I think I have Audacity on pc somewhere. I don't have a headphone socket on it,but I could use the one on my hi fi,I presume,which I already use for listening,of course.
  Regarding Das Siegeslied. I quite enjoyed it this time,although the last movement was  a bit of a problem,but worth it for that final surge ('a full throated cadence of naked force."Gelobt sei Gott!" MM Marco Polo booklet notes).
It strikes me as one of Marco Polo's better Brian recordings,actually. I even quite liked the gutsy soloist,Jana Valaskova,this time around. She certainly gives it her all!
Having said that,I have to admit that the best symphony on the cd is No 12. Despite,the rather grim inspiration behind it,this strikes me as one of Brian's best later symphonies. Full of atmosphere & menace,it certainly packs allot into  eleven minutes.
But with all it's inherent or observed problems,Das Siegeslied certainly has an odd,unseetling atmosphere (it certainly unsettles John!). Yet,so different from another work,with which it has been compared,Walton's,celebrated, Belshazzar's Feast. In it's grim way it is probably closer to Lambert's 'Summers Last will & Testament',but again wholly different & thankfully,despite the subject matter, the effect/impact is,somehow,less bleak!

Verdict : A Brian Marco Polo/Naxos cd I actually 'enjoyed'!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on September 08, 2011, 06:26:35 AM
I will put Das Zigi-sled in my car CD player tomorrow and play that CD several times since I will be driving much of the day. I have only listened to it once and, admittedly not paying full attention at the time. I will give it its due and see how it goes!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 08, 2011, 06:39:17 AM
When you do,make sure it's on full blast,on Mega Beat,with the window rolled down. Oh,and drive around town several times,just to make sure everyone in the street,gets to hear it!
Preferably honking your horn!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on September 08, 2011, 06:42:13 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 08, 2011, 06:39:17 AM
When you do,make sure it's on full blast,on Mega Beat,with the window rolled down. Oh,and drive around town several times,just to make sure everyone in the street,gets to hear it!
Preferably honking your horn!

OK, I plan to drive around the Communist Party Headquarters at least once doing just that. Let's see if I get a ticket for that. Ha!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 08, 2011, 07:16:44 AM
I like you're spelling of Das Siegeslied. You make it sound like a lost Bowie album. Ziggy Brian!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2011, 07:30:21 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 08, 2011, 06:20:51 AMVerdict : A Brian Marco Polo/Naxos cd I actually 'enjoyed'!!!!!!!!!


Will wonders never cease? "We`ll keep a welcome in the hillside" for the Naxos 'Siegeslied' and 12th!


Quote from: springrite on September 08, 2011, 06:42:13 AM
OK, I plan to drive around the Communist Party Headquarters at least once doing just that. Let's see if I get a ticket for that. Ha!


;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 08, 2011, 07:48:02 AM
Quote from: springrite on September 08, 2011, 06:42:13 AM
OK, I plan to drive around the Communist Party Headquarters at least once doing just that. Let's see if I get a ticket for that. Ha!

They might even get another member if they're lucky.
Just don't goose step in!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 08, 2011, 07:56:06 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on September 08, 2011, 05:37:15 AM
cilgwyn,
Use Audacity: here http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

Just connect your cassette player's headphone socket, by cable (you might have to buy one), to the line in socket on your computer and use Audacity to record your files in real time. Then you can edit them at your leisure and export them as mp3s or whatever.

Did you say part of it was not good - messing with the aerial in the 10th or something? If so you can replace this section with an mp3 or wav taken from the actual Unicorn disc. If you are using Audacity make sure to mute the CDROM drive via the volume control otherwise you will get unwanted extraneous noise. Offer still stands - I have Nakamichi/Linn set up and lots of repair software to de-hiss it etc. Happy to do it and it's dead easy - I do it all the time as part of my job.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 08, 2011, 08:17:38 AM
Thank you for your offer John,but I think I need to have a go at this myself & I will have other cassettes to do!  (Although,it won't happen,just yet). The conversations between MM & CM are the main interest,of course,but it is helpful to hear them in context. It's a pity I didn't record all five programmes. I had a thing about recording 'entire' programmes for a while,but for some reason I 'missed' these,although I do have a fragment of another one,somewhere,I believe,which included a performance of the Wine of Summer & the studio conversation about it.
Actually,I remember why I recorded this now. I had lost my tapes of 'The Tigers & this was a way of having some of it,at least. Of course,these days you can download!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on September 08, 2011, 09:24:20 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2011, 12:56:55 AM
As for the Fourth: I hope for a performance that will do it full justice. Again, if a conductor (Brabbins?!) can mould the final movement so that it sounds completely inevitable, my doubts will have been quelled. I now think ... that both the recapitulation of the final movement's opening material and the return of the opening theme of the work as a whole are more mechanical than I am used to in Brian. Compared with the structural adventurousness of the final movement of 'The Gothic', that counts as a minus (for me).

To me, these things are a plus, even though I agree with your description. IMO, sometimes music can be deliberately bad, or have only a sparse scattering of ideas, or a hollowness at its centre, or a mechanical disengagement....and still be masterly Mahler does this sometimes, I think. And these final moments of no 4 are, IMO, another such moment. I find a deep poetic truth in the fact that the recapitulation is literal, mechanical-sounding, uncouth, stylistically at  complete, uncaring variance with the main body of the music, simplistic, crass, unmoved by anything that has been said in the intervening symphony. There's an ugly, inhuman logic in that. The music rather reminds me of theose Stalinist scores - e.g. Sviridov's infamous Vremya Vpered (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBO_ujPHYYM&feature=related) - which aim to convince of the rightness of their political stance by dint of brazen power that brooks no sentiment or argument.

eit - better link
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2011, 09:43:38 AM
I know exactly what you're driving at, Luke, certainly when you mention Mahler with his sometimes devastatingly ironic juxtapositions... I think 'Das Siegeslied' could be just such a work, and of course, Malcolm MacDonald has always 'sold' it as such. I hope I live long enough for the dream performance that clinches everything.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 08, 2011, 12:34:08 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2011, 03:56:40 AM
Nothing like a good Nuremberg rally to cleanse the system.  ;D

Oh dear :o :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2011, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 08, 2011, 12:34:08 PM
Oh dear :o :o


"A glass of water for Mr. Mackie!"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on September 08, 2011, 07:14:11 PM
A brief digression to begin with, if it's permitted: you may be aware of the strange beliefs of certain fundamentalist religious types over in the United States. They tend to gain strength in their extremism from the mis-education of the general populace, a very large proportion of which does not acknowledge basic scientific facts such as evolution, this especially being chosen as the site of battles in the culture wars over there. Creationism, especially the ludicrous variety that pretends to rewrite the accumulation of human history and knowledge wholesale by imagining the world came into existence just over 6,000 years ago, is particularly rife and strenuously defended on the Internet, to the extent that it resulted in the creation of an adage entitled Poe's Law. This says in effect, that you can't make a parody of the ridiculousness of these viewpoints (without using blatant signposts to the contrived nature of the parody) which won't also be prone to being mis-identified as an actual, fundamentalist viewpoint.

You may think you've concocted the most wicked, monster-raving-looniest parody of such a subject imaginable, so obvious that no one could possibly fail to recognise the target must be parody: when in fact, in trawling the Internet, you will almost certainly find real examples of these views that far outstrip it for off-on-a-different-planet fruitcakiness or nuttiness, essentially leaving it for dead. As originally phrased, Nathan Poe said "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is uttrerly [sic] impossible to parody a Creationist in such a way that someone won't mistake [it] for the genuine article."

Where I'm going with this is the intent behind the extreme nature of Brian's setting of Psalm 68 in Luther's translation. The psalm is not completely militaristic as might be implied by the opening verse, "Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him", but like the entirety of the Bible itself, it contains numerous contradictions and can be cherry-picked for both positive and negative, good and bad sayings. For example, against the blood-thirsty verse 23 (set with perverse relish by Brian), "That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same," you could cherry-pick a more peace-loving phrase from verse 30, "Rebuke the company of spearmen, ... scatter thou the people that delight in war." The psalm as a whole is a self-contradictory and self-righteous praising of a particularly jealous Old Testament god, named in verse 4 as JAH, with a basic mindset of bronze-age tribalism: either you're for JAH (read verse 3!), or else you're one of the enemies (compare verse 2!). For this text to be chosen for a colossal choral symphony fifteen years after the bloodiest war in human history until that point is obviously making a major artistic statement, and to set it to music of such a pitiless character (take any of the times the chorus recites the name of "JAH", for example) seems to be openly making a pæan to tribalism, to warfare, and to the nastier xenophobic elements of human nature which are implied by the text. It is also quite proper to ask in light of the historical context, is this symphony actually a demonstration of the fascist triumphalism that was then nascent? Was Brian completely mad to try to set this psalm in German, in as brutal a choral-orchestral setting as imaginable, at this time in European history? In Internet parlance, is "Das Siegeslied" a gigantic Poe or is it actually the real thing, a colossal affirmation of war?

I think the answer is in the last-minute recapitulation of the quasi-Handelian march which provided the work's opening strains: it is both monstrously inappropriate as the summation of the previous forty minutes of musical development as well as being the only logical music at that point which can now undercut the basic message of the psalm and the premise of the intervening music for the psalm-setting. It leaves a final impression of "we went through all that forty-five minutes of sturm und drang and yet we're no better off at the end because of it!" – except for the memory of the visceral music itself, given over in large part to envisaging the violent slaughter of our enemies, followed by copious rejoicing in the fact. I think that casts the symphony as a complicated but fundamentally anti-war work – but it's alarmingly easy (thanks to the difficulty in separating apart sincere extremism and the parody of it) to see it as a monument of triumphalism. That this is a work of the same composer as the one that wrote "The Tigers" gives me confidence that he did not actually intend a superficial triumph to this "Song of Victory".

Cheers, Philip

PS As for the Nuremberg rally comment: I find it difficult not to think of that sort of image when cue-ing the Adrian Leaper recording to say, track 11 directly at the start, or the march beginning afterwards at 1:30, or to the marvellous trumpet tune in track 12 at 0:58. It could so easily be festival music for the self-righteous xenophobes who only just moments before (track 10), had been merrily carolling about with "Dein fuss", i.e. dipping their foot in the blood of their enemies. And yet it's wonderful, stirring music all the same: an essay in cognitive dissonance when you consider the sentiment expressed to such glorious sounds. (The Poole is pretty damn impressive too, but I thought the Leaper cue points would be a lot easier for most readers to identify the exact passages I have in mind.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2011, 12:33:42 AM
Alan (Thranx), Luke and Philip have all made an excellent case for the philosophical inevitability in 'Das Siegeslied's' music. I am going to listen to the work again later today. The final sentence of Philip's mini-essay (leaving the P.S. aside) leads me to something else: the symphony could be considered as a grim satire, the dark twin of The Tigers. The Tigers lampoons war in a very English way, 'Das Siegeslied' does it the German way, thorough, serious, and the 'quotation marks' are created ONLY by the contrast between the opening and closing music and what comes inbetween.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on September 13, 2011, 06:13:55 AM
After an initial listening about 12 years ago, listened to Zigi-Sled about 10 times in the past 3 days. Oh how I love it now! Awesome!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 13, 2011, 06:18:09 AM
Quote from: springrite on September 13, 2011, 06:13:55 AM
After an initial listening about 12 years ago, listened to Zigi-Sled about 10 times in the past 3 days. Oh how I love it now! Awesome!


:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 16, 2011, 06:17:02 AM
Two photos of our eponymous composer...

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 16, 2011, 06:18:53 AM
Havergal Brian in colour!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 16, 2011, 06:20:19 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 16, 2011, 06:18:53 AM
Havergal Brian in colour!


Shocking, isn't it?  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 16, 2011, 06:32:34 AM
Seriously,whoever took some of those late photos of HB was a pretty good photographer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 16, 2011, 06:44:24 AM
Similar nose to my grandfather-

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 16, 2011, 07:07:42 AM
Havergal Brian had some interesting looking radios too!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on September 16, 2011, 11:38:35 AM
I think that is an "Elizabethan" reel to reel. I had one about 40 years ago, t'was my pride and joy :)
Recorded much HB on it, if it is?
Good pic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 16, 2011, 02:42:34 PM
I used to be interested in old radios & I remember mulling over a transistor radio like that. I thought £20 was too much! It still worked.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 16, 2011, 04:30:13 PM
I can tell you that it is a transistor radio, that the photograph was taken in 1958 and that my grandfather and I were listening to some Sibelius :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 17, 2011, 12:33:01 AM
I think Havergal Brian's transistor radio collection may warrant it's own thread.
More Brian radio photos PLEASE!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on September 17, 2011, 03:56:18 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 17, 2011, 12:33:01 AM

More Brian radio photos PLEASE!

Too bad Brian is not famous or hip enough to interest cartoonists. He has a face that any good cartoonist would love!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 18, 2011, 05:23:44 AM
According to the Havergal Brian website,recordings from Toccata Vol 2 of Brian Orchestral works,will be broadcast on Radio 3,'in the week of' September 19th. I am sure Johan knows & other HB Society members,but others may not! There is a nice (small) photo of the front cover of the Toccata cd there,too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2011, 05:39:17 AM
Thanks, cilgwyn! I hadn't checked there yet, so I didn't know... It will be very interesting to compare the new performance of the 'Kelly' Variations with the two we already know (Hager/Luxembourg, Friend/BBC). Good to hear the Preludio Tragico, too.


It seems I'll be in England again next year, as the HBS intends to do something with the 40th anniversary of Brian's death...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 18, 2011, 03:13:25 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 18, 2011, 05:23:44 AM
According to the Havergal Brian website,recordings from Toccata Vol 2 of Brian Orchestral works,will be broadcast on Radio 3,'in the week of' September 19th. I am sure Johan knows & other HB Society members,but others may not! There is a nice (small) photo of the front cover of the Toccata cd there,too.

If I recall correctly, the deal with the BBC was that the cd could not be released until the BBC had broadcast the performances first.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2011, 03:15:05 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 18, 2011, 03:13:25 PM
If I recall correctly, the deal with the BBC was that the cd could not be released until the BBC had broadcast the performances first.


If memory serves, you are correct, Colin.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on September 18, 2011, 03:28:29 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 18, 2011, 03:13:25 PM
If I recall correctly, the deal with the BBC was that the cd could not be released until the BBC had broadcast the performances first.

That may be true, but don't go directly standing in line for the CD right after the broadcast.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2011, 03:30:36 PM
Quote from: springrite on September 18, 2011, 03:28:29 PM
That may be true, but don't go directly standing in line for the CD right after the broadcast.  ;)


Words of wisdom.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 19, 2011, 02:31:52 AM
I'm looking forward to everything on the cd,but the Faust excerpt is particularly intriguing. I am given to understand that Faust contains some of Brian's most 'awe inspiring music'! The Prologue is certainly some of the best Brian to reach my ears. And the singing was very good too. If only they could have done the rest! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 02:36:29 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 19, 2011, 02:31:52 AM
I'm looking forward to everything on the cd,but the Faust excerpt is particularly intriguing. I am given to understand that Faust contains some of Brian's most 'awe inspiring music'! The Prologue is certainly some of the best Brian to reach my ears. And the singing was very good too. If only they could have done the rest! :(


Yes, that certainly was a pity. I think that Prologue is among the best things Brian ever did, too. Whenever I read Goethe's Faust Part 1 (in German), I hear Brian's music - it really fits.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 19, 2011, 05:05:07 AM
Still,looking on the bright side & trying to be philosophical,this is one major part of Brians ouput that we might actually get to hear one day (unlike Prometheus Unbound) & it will be the more exciting for that. (Hope I'm proved wrong about Prometheus,though).
Regarding,the 'other' opera (not 'included' on the Toccata) I'm sure I used to have a cassette copy of Agamemnon. I seem to remember the sound quality was very murky. I wonder if this was just my copy?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 05:21:07 AM
My cassette copy sounded murky, too. But I have it on good authority (himself) that Colin has found 'Agamemnon' in his world-famous reel-to-reel treasure-trove...


In 10 minutes' time - the 'Kelly' Variations on Radio Three.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 05:59:58 AM
Just listened to the new performance on BBC Radio Three of the 'Kelly' Variations from The Tigers. I heard new details, which is always nice, and the pacing by Gary Walker was good. This bodes well for the rest of the coming CD.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 19, 2011, 06:09:23 AM
I taped it,just for the 'record' & the 'intro',for some reason. (Derham's a bit twee,for my tastes,but thank goodness it wasn't the abominable Titchmarsh!) The performance sounded good to me. No problem there,but then I haven't really had time to absorb it yet. KD said the cd would be out soon?!
(Pettersson's Seventh,next. I don't know his music so I think I will press ye olde record button).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 06:11:06 AM
Next month.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 19, 2011, 06:34:04 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 05:21:07 AM
My cassette copy sounded murky, too. But I have it on good authority (himself) that Colin has found 'Agamemnon' in his world-famous reel-to-reel treasure-trove...


In 10 minutes' time - the 'Kelly' Variations on Radio Three.

Regarding 'Agamemnon'...yes, I have!

It is on Tape No.64: Milla Andrew(soprano), Ann Howard(mezzo-soprano), William Macalpine(tenor), John Dobson(tenor), Michael Rippon(bass), Dennis Wicks(bass), the BBC Northern Singers and the BBC Northern Symphony Orchestra(Sir Richard Armstrong) with an Introduction by Malcolm MacDonald.

Johan....you will be intrigued to learn that the next work on that same tape is 'Sea-Drift' by a certain F. Delius :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 06:37:53 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 19, 2011, 06:34:04 AM
Johan....you will be intrigued to learn that the next work on that same tape is 'Sea-Drift' by a certain F. Delius :D


Oh, wipe it.


Just joking.  ;D


And now I'm off for a while!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 19, 2011, 07:32:22 AM
Look on the bright side,at least the soloist isn't Bryn Terfel (like my copy)!
(It would be a bit early).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 07:40:24 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 19, 2011, 07:32:22 AM
Look on the bright side,at least the soloist isn't Bryn Terfel (like my copy)!
(It would be a bit early).


I had John Shirley-Quirk with Sir Charles Groves once ( EMI, on tape, which I can't play anymore...) Excellent performance! And one of Delius's best and most moving works.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 19, 2011, 07:51:15 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 07:40:24 AM

I had John Shirley-Quirk with Sir Charles Groves once ( EMI, on tape, which I can't play anymore...) Excellent performance! And one of Delius's best and most moving works.

My taped performance is John Noble with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic under the same Sir Charles Groves.

(Also on that tape- Diepenbrock's Overture "The Birds", Janacek's Suite Op.3 "The Serenade", Ginastera's Harp Concerto, Britten's Spring Symphony, Hoddinott's Overture "Jack Straw" and Ian Parrott's Cello Concerto).

Oh...I had good taste ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 08:02:04 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 19, 2011, 07:51:15 AM
My taped performance is John Noble with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic under the same Sir Charles Groves.

(Also on that tape- Diepenbrock's Overture "The Birds", Janacek's Suite Op.3 "The Serenade", Ginastera's Harp Concerto, Britten's Spring Symphony, Hoddinott's Overture "Jack Straw" and Ian Parrott's Cello Concerto).

Oh...I had good taste ;D ;D


Oh yes! And - it WAS John Noble in Sea-Drift! John Shirley-Quirk sang 'Cynara' on the same tape.  :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 19, 2011, 08:22:06 AM
I'm definately a John Shirley-Quirk man!
Bryn Terfel blusters too much,for me.
Ian Parrott's Cello Concerto,that would be another rarity.
I've got his book on Cyril Scott's piano music,somewhere.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 08:25:38 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 19, 2011, 08:22:06 AM
I'm definitely a John Shirley-Quirk man!


Me, too. His recording with Jessye Norman and Haitink/RCO of Mahler's Wunderhorn songs is a perennial favourite of mine.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 19, 2011, 10:16:05 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 08:25:38 AM

Me, too. His recording with Jessye Norman and Haitink/RCO of Mahler's Wunderhorn songs is a perennial favourite of mine.

Shame about the poor quality of the foreign orchestra  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 19, 2011, 10:46:50 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 08:02:04 AM

Oh yes! And - it WAS John Noble in Sea-Drift! John Shirley-Quirk sang 'Cynara' on the same tape.  :o

You were supposed to say "you still do" ;D. But you missed your chance....it's too late now :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 10:50:51 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 19, 2011, 10:16:05 AM
Shame about the poor quality of the foreign orchestra  ;)


You can't have everything.


Quote from: Dundonnell on September 19, 2011, 10:46:50 AM
You were supposed to say "you still do" ;D . But you missed your chance....it's too late now :(


You cruel man!  ;D Of course your taste is just as impeccable now as it has always been.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 19, 2011, 10:52:15 AM
Aaahhh....forgiven ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2011, 10:53:06 AM
Phew, that was close.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on September 20, 2011, 03:39:32 AM
My fave recording of John Shirley-Quirk is with Previn and the LSO in Rachmaninov's 'The Bells'. He also did the Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony with Previn, which was excellent.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 20, 2011, 03:41:36 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on September 20, 2011, 03:39:32 AM
My fave recording of John Shirley-Quirk is with Previn and the LSO in Rachmaninov's 'The Bells'. He also did the Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony with Previn, which was excellent.

;)


I'll keep those in mind. [The Preludio Tragico in two hours' time...]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 20, 2011, 05:02:30 AM
Must record that. 2.45. Better set my alarm clock (to remind me). Some Martinu afterwards. That's nice. Recorded the Pettersson yesterday,but lost the end as I had to go out. Phew! I needed a rest after that one! :o Wierdly gripping & individual,but Brian (and Daniel Jones,too) certainly knew how to leaven the seriousness with some light,and in Brians case humour.  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 20, 2011, 07:02:55 AM
Listened to the Preludio Tragico - Brian is always unpredictable, even for an aficionado like me. The Cenci has its own peculiar, angular style. If you combine this piece with the Fanfare John made available to us, you can hear they have a lot in common. Funny that the presenter called it La Cenci before and The Cenci afterwards - must have been alerted to the mistake...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 20, 2011, 07:59:54 AM
Katie Derwotsits a mistake. This is why I don't listen to R3 much.these days. I keep waiting them to tell me that todays programme is brought to me by the letter B.
At least Fozzie Bear was funny!

(http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/8504/fozziebear.jpg)

And a very talented pianist.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on September 20, 2011, 08:48:31 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 20, 2011, 07:59:54 AM
Katie Derwotsits a mistake.

I'll always treasure her recent allusion to the first performance of Arthur Somervell's Normandy Variations, as given by that well-known musicologist Douglas Tovey. No wonder she always sounds as if she's about to break out into uncontrollable hysterics - she very nearly wet herself at the description of The Tigers as "Dad's Army - The Musical".

:o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 20, 2011, 09:33:52 AM
Quote from: Albion on September 20, 2011, 08:48:31 AM
I'll always treasure her recent allusion to the first performance of Arthur Somervell's Normandy Variations, as given by that well-known musicologist Douglas Tovey. No wonder she always sounds as if she's about to break out into uncontrollable hysterics - she very nearly wet herself at the description of The Tigers as "Dad's Army - The Musical".

:o


I noticed that, too... I wonder who coined the phrase, by the way. It's not as if The Tigers is that well-known.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: karlhenning on September 20, 2011, 09:37:42 AM
It's a man's life in the British Army!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 20, 2011, 10:03:23 AM
We're all doomed!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 20, 2011, 10:04:00 AM
You stupid boy.


(Nothing personal!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 20, 2011, 10:13:12 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on September 20, 2011, 01:23:06 PM
I heard the two pieces via BBC iPlayer. I'm very pleased with both, particularly (La) Cenci, it's played very well, great piece. And, that's the first time I actually heard the quote from the Gothic in the Kelly variations!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 20, 2011, 01:27:23 PM
Quote from: Hattoff on September 20, 2011, 01:23:06 PM
I heard the two pieces via BBC iPlayer. I'm very pleased with both, particularly (La) Cenci, it's played very well, great piece. And, that's the first time I actually heard the quote from the Gothic in the Kelly variations!!


I think this second Toccata release will be fascinating. Both the Cenci Prelude and the Tigers Variations came off very well. But - where is the 'Gothic' quote??! IS there a 'Gothic' quote? He wrote the Tigers before the 'Gothic'...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on September 20, 2011, 01:34:11 PM
There's certainly a reference to The Tigers in Part 1 of the Gothic...

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 20, 2011, 01:39:15 PM
Which movement? Or are you joking? If not, I never noticed it before...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on September 20, 2011, 03:02:16 PM
Ah, of course, I've got them the wrong way around :-[  but the quote is definitely there. I'll get back to you with the time it appears.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 20, 2011, 03:03:19 PM
Very good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 20, 2011, 03:10:31 PM
Does Brian quote 'himself' in any of his orchestral works or symphonies? I can't think of any examples,but you're the expert,Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 20, 2011, 03:20:47 PM
I am about to make myself SOOOOO unpopular ;D ;D ;D

128 pages of posts about Havergal Brian, compared to 110 on Gustav Mahler, 52 on Beethoven, 51 on Sibeliius....... :o

Now...I really love, respect, admire the music of old HB-as I hope you know ;D I was advocating his music before many on here were born. I was writing letters to the newspapers demanding that the Gothic be performed at the Edinburgh Festival back in 1965.

....but there actually ARE other composers too..... ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 20, 2011, 03:22:50 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 20, 2011, 03:10:31 PM
Does Brian quote 'himself' in any of his orchestral works or symphonies? I can't think of any examples,but you're the expert,Johan.


I know he does. Giving the instances off the top of my head is more difficult. If I remember correctly the 'Has Anybody Here Seen Kelly' theme crops up in one of the later symphonies, and the 'Gothic' is alluded to in Ave Atque Vale (?). But Brian never repeats himself. He likes to allude. There is a thematic connection between symphonies 22-24 and 30, for instance.


But it's late...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 20, 2011, 03:24:53 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 20, 2011, 03:20:47 PM
I am about to make myself SOOOOO unpopular ;D ;D ;D

128 pages of posts about Havergal Brian, compared to 110 on Gustav Mahler, 52 on Beethoven, 51 on Sibeliius....... :o

Now...I really love, respect, admire the music of old HB-as I hope you know ;D I was advocating his music before many on here were born. I was writing letters to the newspapers demanding that the Gothic be performed at the Edinburgh Festival back in 1965.

....but there actually ARE other composers too..... ;D ;D


I know, and I love Mahler, Beethoven and Sibelius, and certainly Beethoven I rate higher than HB. BUT - the undiscovered continent has its attractions. That's all.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 20, 2011, 03:30:01 PM
Of course it does :) :)

It's a free world(well, perhaps not so much, in reality) so people are totally free to post as much as they like about composers of their choice :)

I shall be more reasonable when someone says something about Paul von Klenau ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 20, 2011, 03:31:54 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 20, 2011, 03:30:01 PM
Of course it does :) :)

It's a free world(well, perhaps not so much, in reality) so people are totally free to post as much as they like about composers of their choice :)

I shall be more reasonable when someone says something about Paul von Klenau ;D ;D


Is he the inventor of Kleenex? Or does he really exist?  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 20, 2011, 03:35:36 PM
Ohhhh...BAAADDD :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 20, 2011, 03:43:12 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 20, 2011, 03:20:47 PM
I am about to make myself SOOOOO unpopular ;D ;D ;D

128 pages of posts about Havergal Brian, compared to 110 on Gustav Mahler, 52 on Beethoven, 51 on Sibeliius....... :o

Now...I really love, respect, admire the music of old HB-as I hope you know ;D I was advocating his music before many on here were born. I was writing letters to the newspapers demanding that the Gothic be performed at the Edinburgh Festival back in 1965.

....but there actually ARE other composers too..... ;D ;D

Yes,let me see,there's York Bowen :o,Cyril Scott,Dimitri Kabalevsky and Henry Cowell,all awaiting 120 + posts!
Hop on board!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on September 20, 2011, 03:46:49 PM
A couple of things, the quote from the Tigers as used in the Gothic is at 3:40 in the Hagar recording and lasts about eight seconds. It is, as Johan so rightly says, not exactly the same. The new Garry Walker recording makes it much more noticable though.
Johan has much better ears than me but I have always found Brian to be self referential, all composers are to some extent otherwise we wouldn't be able to tell them apart; does that make sense? :)

As for this thread being (too) long, what's wrong with that? Anyone can post what they like anywhere, can't they? :D
Or, perhaps they can't :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 20, 2011, 03:50:34 PM
Quote from: Hattoff on September 20, 2011, 03:46:49 PM
A couple of things, the quote from the Tigers as used in the Gothic is at 3:40 in the Hagar recording and lasts about eight seconds. It is, as Johan so rightly says, not exactly the same. The new Garry Walker recording makes it much more noticable though.
Johan has much better ears than me but I have always found Brian to be self referential, all composers are to some extent otherwise we wouldn't be able to tell them apart; does that make sense? :)

As for this thread being (too) long, what's wrong with that? Anyone can post what they like anywhere, can't they? :D
Or, perhaps they can't :(

Of course they can :) :)

I was being naughty ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on September 20, 2011, 03:53:22 PM
ooh you devil, you got me ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 20, 2011, 03:59:53 PM
@Hattoff Brian has his own, very recognisable style, and there are recurring 'tics' and trademarks. But that is different from alluding to or even re-using themes, like Mahler did. Brian is always transforming his material. You could notice that again in the Preludio Tragico this afternoon. Everything is in flux. That beautiful 'second theme' never returns literally.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on September 21, 2011, 02:34:39 AM
Johan,

No, not joking. If you listen to the Brabbins performance, around 5.39 in the first movement there is a clear reminiscence/allusion in the bassoons. Not identical of course, but as you say, Brian never is.

Brian has an affectionate poke at Mahler (fourth and sixth symphonies) in his own eleventh, though.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 21, 2011, 03:19:37 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 20, 2011, 07:02:55 AM
Listened to the Preludio Tragico - Brian is always unpredictable, even for an aficionado like me. The Cenci has its own peculiar, angular style. If you combine this piece with the Fanfare John made available to us, you can hear they have a lot in common. Funny that the presenter called it La Cenci before and The Cenci afterwards - must have been alerted to the mistake...
Just in case you lost the link for the Fanfare from Le Cenci performed by the PJBE here it is:
http://www.mediafire.com/?dzg9x50v2uv3l9h
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 04:40:03 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on September 21, 2011, 02:34:39 AM
Johan,

No, not joking. If you listen to the Brabbins performance, around 5.39 in the first movement there is a clear reminiscence/allusion in the bassoons. Not identical of course, but as you say, Brian never is.

Brian has an affectionate poke at Mahler (fourth and sixth symphonies) in his own eleventh, though.

;)


Found it. It's at rehearsal number 14. I never associated it with The Tigers, because such muttering bassoon figures are so prevalent all across Brian's oeuvre. But I must say, I always found this passage striking. Perhaps I subconsciously 'knew' it all along.


There is another Brian 'tic', which you can find from 'For Valour' to Symphony No. 32. I began to notice it a long time ago, but didn't know if I should attach any significance to it. But knowing Brian's Joycean deviousness and his love of Schumann, I have the following hypothesis - that Brian used the rhythm of his own name in many of his compositions. "HA-ver-gal BRI-an" is a dactyl followed by a trochee, in prosody. The official name of this rhythm is 'Adonic' (see Wikipedia). Since noticing this, I hear it everywhere in Brian's music. It opens 'For Valour', with the ictus of the trochee stretched. He can also curtail it, and then we lose the final 'foot'. It ends Symphony No. 32, with a 'full stop' behind it, as it were. You can hear it in the Violin Concerto, second movement. And I could go on. It is part of the opening of Symphony No. 13, where the rhythm almost seems to say: "I'm Havergal Brian".


Fanciful? I don't know.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 21, 2011, 05:03:56 AM
The influence of the music and the musical aesthetic of Arnold Schoenberg on Havergal Brian has been insufficiently examined. Brian was a great admirer of Schoenberg's music and in 1928 hailed him as "the foremost composer of today". Brian's Second, Third and Fourth Symphonies bear witness to his familiarity with works like 'Pelleas und Melisande' and 'Gurrelieder'.

Discuss. (Your essay should be no more than 2000 words long and marks will be deducted for spelling mistakes.)

(Oh, btw I read somewhere that Paul von Klenau intended to show the score of Brian's previously unknown piano concerto to Arnold Schoenberg when both were in Copenhagen in 1925 for a performance of Gurrelieder but lost the score somewhere in the Tivoli Gardens while on a rehearsal lunch break......but that may just be a invention ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on September 21, 2011, 05:08:02 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 21, 2011, 05:03:56 AM

Discuss. (Your essay should be no more than 2000 words long and marks will be deducted for spelling mistakes.)

Stretching a bit, I reckon.

(Less than 2000 words and no obvious spelling mistakes.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 05:51:37 AM
I thought he left it on the Clapham omnibus!
Incidentally,if John thinks Das Siegeslied is that terrible,he should lend an ear to Lev Knipper's Fourth. If he felt an urge to cleanse himself after Das Siegeslied,he'll need a bath after this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Ga-mfkJAU

Das Siegeslied really IS quite subtle!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on September 21, 2011, 05:54:37 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 05:51:37 AM

Das Siegeslied really IS quite subtle!

It's almost chamber music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 05:56:20 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 21, 2011, 05:03:56 AM
The influence of the music and the musical aesthetic of Arnold Schoenberg on Havergal Brian has been insufficiently examined. Brian was a great admirer of Schoenberg's music and in 1928 hailed him as "the foremost composer of today". Brian's Second, Third and Fourth Symphonies bear witness to his familiarity with works like 'Pelleas und Melisande' and 'Gurrelieder'.

Discuss. (Your essay should be no more than 2000 words long and marks will be deducted for spelling mistakes.)

(Oh, btw I read somewhere that Paul von Klenau intended to show the score of Brian's previously unknown piano concerto to Arnold Schoenberg when both were in Copenhagen in 1925 for a performance of Gurrelieder but lost the score somewhere in the Tivoli Gardens while on a rehearsal lunch break......but that may just be a invention ;D )


I leave it to the capable hands of Malcolm MacDonald  to discuss the Schoenberg-Brian nexus... The second volume of Brian's writings on music give ample evidence of Brian's enthusiasm and admiration for the redoubtable Arnold.


I was at Tivoli in 1996. I looked, but didn't find it.


Quote from: springrite on September 21, 2011, 05:54:37 AM
It's almost chamber music.


That's overstating it!  ;D But it is a complex creation.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 21, 2011, 06:07:05 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 05:51:37 AM
I thought he left it on the Clapham omnibus!
Incidentally,if John thinks Das Siegeslied is that terrible,he should lend an ear to Lev Knipper's Fourth. If he felt an urge to cleanse himself after Das Siegeslied,he'll need a bath after this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Ga-mfkJAU

Das Siegeslied really IS quite subtle!
I think I will pass on this one matey!! I've never even heard of Les Kipper. What a silly name. ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 06:07:42 AM
It's VERY LOUD chamber music with a VERY Large chamber orchestra & a VERY LARGE chamber choir!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on September 21, 2011, 06:08:59 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 21, 2011, 06:07:05 AM
I think I will pass on this one matey!! I've never even heard of Les Kipper. What a silly name. ;D

Wait till you hear Kiss Leper.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 06:09:38 AM
Les Knipper! He was down the pub,wasn't he? You're making me laugh. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 06:09:59 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 21, 2011, 06:07:05 AM
I think I will pass on this one matey!! I've never even heard of Les Kipper. What a silly name. ;D


Quote from: springrite on September 21, 2011, 06:08:59 AM
Wait till you hear Kiss Leper.


;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 21, 2011, 06:12:04 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 05:56:20 AM

I was at Tivoli in 1996. I looked, but didn't find it.


I was in Tivoli last year and found a manuscript headed Sibelius Symphony No. 8 in the gent's toilet. I read it through quickly. It was really terrible but I found a use for it........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 06:14:20 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 21, 2011, 06:12:04 AM
I was in Tivoli last year and found a manuscript headed Sibelius Symphony No. 8 in the gent's toilet. I read it through quickly. It was really terrible but I found a use for it........


If it was still burning from the fire Sibelius threw it into, it must have been painful.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 21, 2011, 06:23:07 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 06:14:20 AM

If it was still burning from the fire Sibelius threw it into, it must have been painful.
Furthermore I was still burning from the previous night's vindaloo.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 06:24:24 AM
Fighting fire with fire, eh?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 06:26:54 AM
(http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/205/51dfyzf04blsl500aa300.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-09-21
Incidentally,unless I'm mistaken,Johan,I've never 'heard' you pass comment on this one. I had the original Lp,once. I'm afraid,apart from,maybe,the opening item,it was the only HB recording that I didn't find very interesting.
But maybe,I was wrong? It's a long time now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on September 21, 2011, 06:27:09 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 06:24:24 AM
Fighting fire with fire, eh?

Merger?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 06:43:26 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 06:26:54 AM
(http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/205/51dfyzf04blsl500aa300.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-09-21
Incidentally,unless I'm mistaken,Johan,I've never 'heard' you pass comment on this one. I had the original Lp,once. I'm afraid,apart from,maybe,the opening item,it was the only HB recording that I didn't find very interesting.
But maybe,I was wrong? It's a long time now.


No, you're right, I have never mentioned this CD. Well, what can I say - it's piano music by Havergal Brian, so everyone who loves his music must take an interest.


That said, which pieces do I enjoy? The Prelude - John Dowland's Fancy is delicious. I liked to 'play' it on the piano (I am a less-than-lousy pianist). The meatiest works on the CD are the Prelude and Fugue in C minor, the Prelude and Fugue in D minor/major and the big Double Fugue in E flat.Brian seems to have written these as studies for The Gothic, but they are more than that. They'll never rank as his greatest creations, but they are still enjoyable. I did, however, like the earlier performances just a bit more (on LP, Cameo Classicsl), where Peter Hill was the pianist... As for the whimsical Three Illuminations, they show Brian from his lighter side - on the CD they come with and without the spoken commentaries. I think I like them better as pure piano music. The remaining pieces on the CD are the Four Miniatures, two of which are the (very full and independent) piano accompaniments to the songs 'The Land of Dreams' and 'The Birds', that this CD also gives in their song version, plus the striong and bitter 'The Defiled Sanctuary'.


(corrected, I think)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 07:11:57 AM
P.S. John Dowland's Fancy opens with the 'Brian rhythm', too (see #2559).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 07:29:21 AM
Oh,so I had an earlier recording. It's so long,and I foolishly pre-supposed that there was only one. I can't find any trace of a cd reissue of the earlier recording? Now I wish I'd kept the Lp!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on September 21, 2011, 09:00:19 AM
The 'Brian rhythm' is right there in the Kelly variations from the Tigers too, repeated; at 2 minutes 20 seconds in the Brabbins performance...

Good catch, Johan - yes, it's everywhere in the same kind of way that DSCH is (and BACH) - but as a rhythm rather than as a melodic cipher. Although you can also make a very interesting melodic cipher from Brian's name using German notation, H (B) - A - E - G - A - B (B flat) - A, or an English notation variant without the leading 'H', and sharpening the B flat.

It's remarkable how many composers did this kind of thing - even people like Tchaikovsky. Cipher 'pEter tCHAikovsky' (letters in capitals, with H meaning B as in German notation), hum it and see what you get!

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on September 21, 2011, 10:12:00 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 07:11:57 AM
P.S. John Dowland's Fancy opens with the 'Brian rhythm', too (see #2559).

Yes, and the Allegretto of Beethoven's 7th is full of it too - how prescient! To be honest I'm not so sure about the rhythm being representative of the rhythm of HB's name, especially as there are other equally plausible ways in which to rhythmicise said name.

On the subject of Brian's piano music, however - I've played it for a long time, and in fact did so again just last week. There is some very odd stuff in there, but it certainly gives another perspective to one's appreciation of HB. The double fugue is, I think, the finest of the pieces, and it's an enormous, complex, four-stave behemoth of a thing, harmonically fascinating, contrapuntally amazing. It's from the same sort of stable as the fugal portions of Busoni's Fantasia Contrappuntistica and repays study, I think. In fact, I might go and play through it again in a minute.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 12:18:35 PM
Quote from: Luke on September 21, 2011, 10:12:00 AM
Yes, and the Allegretto of Beethoven's 7th is full of it too - how prescient! To be honest I'm not so sure about the rhythm being representative of the rhythm of HB's name, especially as there are other equally plausible ways in which to rhythmicise said name.


Well, I can't prove a thing, so you're absolutely right to be sceptical. But living with this music, it began to strike me. For me Brian created an oeuvre that is personal mythology, diary, dream protocol, philosophy all rolled into one. He was the master of his own universe, and a rather solitary master at that. Brian had a cunning and playful mind, and I can also feel a certain self-dramatisation is his music, for all its outward impenetrability and objectivity. Making his own name part of the fabric of his music doesn't look too far-fetched to me. Especially as he was very aware of his name - he changed it! Ordinary 'William' became the extraordinary 'Havergal'. This shows the ability to remake yourself and also - to strike a pose. And having a first name as a surname makes the name even more memorable. It won't add anything to the value of the music if my hypothesis is correct. It would say something about Brian's relationship to himself and his work.

But, again - I can't prove a thing!


QuoteOn the subject of Brian's piano music, however - I've played it for a long time, and in fact did so again just last week. There is some very odd stuff in there, but it certainly gives another perspective to one's appreciation of HB. The double fugue is, I think, the finest of the pieces, and it's an enormous, complex, four-stave behemoth of a thing, harmonically fascinating, contrapuntally amazing. It's from the same sort of stable as the fugal portions of Busoni's Fantasia Contrappuntistica and repays study, I think. In fact, I might go and play through it again in a minute.


That you're able to play it - I'm deeply envious! I played it, too, a few hours ago - the CD. It is a remarkable piece, I agree. Quite exhilarating in its sheer intellectuality.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 12:22:14 PM
Unlike 'Chopsticks' and the 'March of the wooden soldiers',although people tell me I play them very well! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 01:14:38 PM
A correction: the LP with Brian's piano music that predates the CD with Raymond Clarke is the one with Peter Hill, on Cameo Classics.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 01:38:02 PM
Ah,that's the one I had. An understandable confusion,I think. Raymond Clarke recorded Ronald Stevenson's Passacaglia on DSCH (Marco Polo). Thus the connection?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 01:39:26 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 01:38:02 PM
Ah,that's the one I had. An understandable confusion,I think. Raymond Clarke recorded Ronald Stevenson's Passacaglia on DSCH (Marco Polo). Thus the connection?


Perhaps. But your mind is a big mystery to me.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 01:54:26 PM
I'm an enigma.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 02:23:42 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 01:54:26 PM
I'm an enigma.


;D


Re the Double Fugue - I just listened to it again, reading along in the score. The perky first subject has that blasted rhythm, too... Sorry!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 03:30:17 PM
Now,I've got to admit I pinched that line from Seinfeld!
You're making me wish I'd hung on to that Lp. I will have to put the cd on my list,but I've allready exceeded my 'quota' for this month. Amongst other purchases,I bought the orginal emi 2cd set of Goodall's recordings of excerpts from Peter Grimes & The Rape of Lucretia. The price of this deleted set has been sky high for ages,but of course,as soon as emi reissued the recordings as part of a 5cd set,the price of the original issue drops spectacularly. It's always the same! Of course,as soon as I had the first recording of 'The Rape of Lucretia',I wanted the cd transfer of the  Britten recording.And so it goes on......................
Anyway,back to Brian!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 03:32:06 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 03:30:17 PM
Now,I've got to admit I pinched that line from Seinfeld!


I love Seinfeld! Which character says it?


And then - back to Brian!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 03:48:08 PM
It comes from 'The Mango',when George is sitting in the restaurant with his girlfiend.You know,the one about the Orgasms! She says it to him.
I've got the whole series on dvd. For some reason it was never very popular here. The Beeb put it on at midnight. They said hardly anyone was watching it! If you mention Seinfeld,you just get blank looks,or,at best,'Oh,I think I've heard of it!' I thought it was marvellous.
Anyway,back to Brian!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 21, 2011, 03:51:38 PM
Oh...Saints preserve us :o :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 21, 2011, 03:58:07 PM
Ahem,now,what were we saying about Brian's piano music?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 04:04:05 PM
Yes, where were we... I must thank you, cilgwyn, for asking me about Brian's piano music. I have listened to his three fugues several times again today and really like them. Strong stuff.

And now - to bed. It's past 2 AM here...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 22, 2011, 07:33:31 AM
Glad to help. By the way,I WAS in bed! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 22, 2011, 08:14:06 AM
Now.I'm confused. I just had a look at the Cameo classics website and there is a cd of the Peter Hill recording pictured there. The 'artwork' on the front is the same as on my old Lp. So the earlier recording is available on cd?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 22, 2011, 08:37:18 AM
It obviously is! I didn't know that...


And neither does the HBS (just checked the discography). Martyn, please update!!


http://www.cameo-classics.com/home.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=77&category_id=86 (http://www.cameo-classics.com/home.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=77&category_id=86)


The site is a bit bare and it's not clear how you can pay and if there's any p&p to add...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 22, 2011, 10:49:38 AM
I notice that Cameo Classics cds don't seem to be listed on any mail order site. The last time I tried,a search of Amazon,brought up a blank?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on September 22, 2011, 11:43:36 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2011, 02:23:42 PM

;D


Re the Double Fugue - I just listened to it again, reading along in the score. The perky first subject has that blasted rhythm, too... Sorry!

It's not the same rhythm as that in the Dowland Fancy though (the latter is lssll and the fugue is sslll, where s = short and l long). Both would adequately represent the rhythm of the name Havergal Brian, as would five equal-value notes or a triplet followed by a duplet, I think....but if he was going to do this surely he would choose only one rhythm? Unless it was a subonscious thing, in which the five syllables of his name have permeated into the music without plan or plot. That is certainly possible.

I strongly agree with your general point, above, about the likelihood of Brian thinking along these sort of lines, given the sort of  tendencies you mention. That's some penetrating and understanding thinking, it seems to me. But my view would be that we're talking here more about a kind of bluff, four-square marchlike rhythm which crops up a lot in Brian's music simply because much of his music (more than is normal) features various species of bluff, four-square march rhythms. The rhythm is very common in music of this sort, no matter the composer (in my head Elgar's Cockaigne is buzzing with its breathless Havergal, Havergal Brian, whilst Britten's YPG fugue has Havergal Brian, Brian Brian, Havergal Brian, Brian Brian, swapping between the sslll and the lssll forms...!)

If there is one rhythm I associate with HB more than any other it is the double-dotted flam sort which opens no 8, for instance. Another march rhythm, yes, but a much more extreme, angular one, disruptive and juddering in a way which sums up Brian in microcosm for me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 22, 2011, 11:50:15 AM
Yes,very strange. Googling the cd,brings no outlets. The only site advertising this cd is Cameo's own website. You can usually obtain cds elsewhere.It seems a strange arrangement & probably,not a very lucrative one. I recall the cd of Holbrooke's piano music was around £16. I thought,just buy it cheaper somewhere else,but no else seemed to have it. The reviews of the cd were positive,but there was some criticism of the recording or the piano itself. I thought,okay then,at that price,skip that! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 22, 2011, 11:59:46 AM
Thanks, Luke, for seriously considering my hypothesis. I waited a long time before airing it, the idea has been with me for two decades... Funny that you mention Symphony No. 8, because I was playing that convulsive opening in my mind today. Yes, it sums up Brian. So does the opening of No. 10, I think - Brian in grand and epic mode. Another quintessential passage is in Gargoyles, when the march really gets under way - that sort of lumbering, menacing, slightly grotesque gait is echt-Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 22, 2011, 12:02:19 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 22, 2011, 11:50:15 AM
Yes,very strange. Googling the cd,brings no outlets. The only site advertising this cd is Cameo's own website. You can usually obtain cds elsewhere.It seems a strange arrangement & probably,not a very lucrative one. I recall the cd of Holbrooke's piano music was around £16. I thought,just buy it cheaper somewhere else,but no else seemed to have it. The reviews of the cd were positive,but there was some criticism of the recording or the piano itself. I thought,okay then,at that price,skip that! :o


The Cameo Clasics site is a bit weird. It looks like a shop front with nothing behind it. I can't even find a mail address to contact them (or I'm blind). I really want to have that Peter Hill CD.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 22, 2011, 12:24:42 PM
Yes,it is a bit wierd. Like a film set with just a front and nothing behind it. A mystery! I also found it annoying that I couldn't seem to find their cds elsewhere. I'm all for supporting small labels,but £16+ was too much for me,even if I quite liked Holbrooke (and I'm sure someone said the piano was a bit 'clangy'). I mean,let's face it,he was a colourful character,but he wasn't Havergal Brian! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 22, 2011, 12:31:12 PM
As George's girlfriend might say,they're an enigma!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 22, 2011, 12:32:15 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 22, 2011, 12:31:12 PM
As George's girlfriend might say,they're an enigma!


Cheeky! Don't wake Dundonnell's wrath.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 22, 2011, 03:28:58 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 22, 2011, 12:31:12 PM
As George's girlfriend might say,they're an enigma!

'George'? Who is this 'George' person?

Anyway....back to Cameo Classics. My understanding is that the company is-essentially- a one-man operation :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 22, 2011, 03:32:53 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 22, 2011, 03:28:58 PM
'George'? Who is this 'George' person?

Anyway....back to Cameo Classics. My understanding is that the company is-essentially- a one-man operation :)


That would explain the rudimentary state of the site.


['George' is a character from Seinfeld, who yesterday derailed the thread, slightly...]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 22, 2011, 03:37:22 PM
Ah.....'Seinfeld'!

Yes...wasn't that the capital of the Grand Duchy of Saxe-Meiningen-Waldeck-Pyrmont or some such? Or was that somewhere else in pre-1914 Imperial Germany?

Tries to rack memory banks.............. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 22, 2011, 03:41:49 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 22, 2011, 03:37:22 PM
Ah.....'Seinfeld'!

Yes...wasn't that the capital of the Grand Duchy of Saxe-Meiningen-Waldeck-Pyrmont or some such? Or was that somewhere else in pre-1914 Imperial Germany?

Tries to rack memory banks.............. ;D ;D


Your memory is still in working order. Count Wilhelm Adolf von Seinfeld von Waldeck-Pyrmont is the one you're thinking of....  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 22, 2011, 03:45:47 PM
That's the man :)

Absolutely NO sense of humour though ;D

(Anyway...Bernard Stevens is coming to Delft within the next few minutes :))
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 23, 2011, 01:26:23 AM
I tried a 'dummy run' at the Cameo Classics website check out (for the Piano cd) just now and it all seemed to go very smoothly. Unfortunately,it'll have to wait for now. If I spend any more this month I'll be selling the Big Issue next to my ATM!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 23, 2011, 01:40:33 AM
How did you pay? Did you see a PayPal option?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 23, 2011, 02:28:32 AM
As I said,I just did a 'dummy run'. I don't want to go too far if it's Paypal & end up paying £15.99. It all seemed to work,at least as far as I can make out. I must admit,this recording is a few years old & much as I'd like to hear it,it's the sort of release I would normally get cheap off one of those Amazon sellers. Not that I don't support small record labels. I buy a quota of new releases from the actual Chandos,Dutton & Hyperion sites,but this is too steep for what it is. I know he has overheads (etc),but so do I!
I will have to resist for now,but if I was YOU I would certainly be looking at buying it.
(It's not even on ebay!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 23, 2011, 02:34:16 AM
The HBS should strike a deal with him and offer it at a reduced price to members...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 23, 2011, 03:16:49 AM
Oh,I'm not criticising,really. I'm just grumpy because I'm too poor! Maybe,it'll come up on one of those s/h cd sites.
If I'd kept the Lp I could have removed all the cliicks and pops and transferred it to cd.
The benefit of hindsight,eh?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 23, 2011, 03:19:54 AM
Nope! Tried another 'Google' for the cd. All I get from the search is stuff like,Sonic the Hedgehog! What's that got to do with it?

Actually,Havergal Brian could make a good computer game. The Premise:Struggling composer of mammoth,ambitious works,attempts to get his creations performed.His efforts constantly thwarted by a shadow,ruthless organisation,known as The Establishment,presided over by the devious & fiendishly villainous,Sir William Glock.
I shall contact Sony,immeadiately!
A mansion,a swimming pool,a personal helicopter and a harem of beautiful women awaits.
Goodbye,penury!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on September 23, 2011, 09:31:28 AM
Thanks for the tip-off, Johan - I ddn't know that the Peter Hill recording had been released on CD either. The site is now updated.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on September 24, 2011, 07:49:06 AM
I must have missed a meeting, because though I knew The Gothic was now on IMSLP (though when I looked at first it hadn't appeared there), I didn't know The Tigers was there too... How very interesting...  :D  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 24, 2011, 08:29:20 AM
Quote from: Luke on September 24, 2011, 07:49:06 AM
I must have missed a meeting, because though I knew The Gothic was now on IMSLP (though when I looked at first it hadn't appeared there), I didn't know The Tigers was there too... How very interesting...  :D :D


Just checked - you're right! That must have been very recent addition. USA only (again)...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on September 25, 2011, 03:12:02 AM
The booklet notes for the forthcoming Toccata Classics release (of orchestral extracts from the operas) are now available for perusal -

http://www.toccataclassics.com/cms/uploads/CyberLabel/documents/doctype/liner_notes/TOCC0113-notes.pdf (http://www.toccataclassics.com/cms/uploads/CyberLabel/documents/doctype/liner_notes/TOCC0113-notes.pdf)

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 25, 2011, 03:21:48 AM
Well-spotted! Thanks.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on September 25, 2011, 04:09:01 AM
Quote from: Albion on September 25, 2011, 03:12:02 AM
The booklet notes for the forthcoming Toccata Classics release (of orchestral extracts from the operas) are now available for perusal -

http://www.toccataclassics.com/cms/uploads/CyberLabel/documents/doctype/liner_notes/TOCC0113-notes.pdf (http://www.toccataclassics.com/cms/uploads/CyberLabel/documents/doctype/liner_notes/TOCC0113-notes.pdf)

:)

It appears that the album is also now available to download -

http://www.toccataclassics.com/cddetail.php?CN=TOCC0113 (http://www.toccataclassics.com/cddetail.php?CN=TOCC0113)

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 25, 2011, 04:13:35 AM
Wow! Even better. I'm sorely tempted, I downloaded Vol. 1, too...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on September 25, 2011, 04:31:09 AM
Just downloaded and now burning to CDR ...

;D

... but of course I'll also have to get the actual release when it is issued!

:o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on September 25, 2011, 04:38:40 AM
I couldn't wait, I've got it. I'm listening to it right now.  :)

It's great to hear it played by a good orchestra and conductor, thrilling in fact..

Thanks all, for pointing it out.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 25, 2011, 05:43:16 AM
That's interesting - thanks to Malcolm MacDonald's notes I see that the music-hall song 'Has Anybody Here Seen Kelly?' dates from 1908. But I am certain Joyce alludes to it in 'Ulysses'... It is set in 1904.
Here it is:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xy4eDKTaQA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xy4eDKTaQA&feature=related)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on September 25, 2011, 05:58:07 AM
The song does indeed date from 1908 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Has_Anybody_Here_Seen_Kelly%3F (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Has_Anybody_Here_Seen_Kelly%3F)), and Joyce does refer to it in Episode 6 ('Hades') -

As they turned into Berkeley street a streetorgan near the Basin sent over and after them a rollicking rattling song of the halls. Has anybody here seen Kelly?

- but Ulysses describes events taking place on 16th June 1904!

:o

Meanwhile, back to the new disc - splendid music and splendid performances. On first listening, this is a very positive addition to the Brian discography! There is some really fabulous orchestration on display throughout and many moments of lyrical, and unexpectedly diatonic, warmth (particularly in the nine items from Turandot) which will come as welcome relief to those who find the symphonies rather hard-edged.

;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 25, 2011, 06:07:49 AM
I was at the 1995 performance of the Turandot Three Pieces and Suite, and I've never forgotten the music. I am going to download the CD tonight. What a treat!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 25, 2011, 09:24:11 AM
Couldn't help myself - just listened to the new Toccata CD. One word - wow! Add this one immediately to the Dutton CD of symphonies 10 & 31. I am angry that this colourful, endlessly inventive music had to wait so long to be recorded.


Buy and be amazed! (Only downloads at the moment.)


Here is a snippet from Turandot - quintessential Brian.


http://www.4shared.com/audio/PiDGh8k2/Turandot_snippet.html (http://www.4shared.com/audio/PiDGh8k2/Turandot_snippet.html)



(http://www.toccataclassics.com/cms/uploads/CyberLabel/images/artwork/album_art/TOCC0113-cover.jpg)


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on September 25, 2011, 10:30:36 AM


I am amazed, the music is fabulous when played that well.
I have not heard the Turandot before but I'm listening for the fourth time now.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 25, 2011, 10:40:28 AM
The coda of the Night Ride is stunning, too. What a composer!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on September 25, 2011, 10:50:34 AM
This is stunning music!

After hearing this, on the heels of a few other non-symphonies, I am starting to think he is an even better composer outside of his symphonies!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 25, 2011, 10:56:03 AM
Quote from: springrite on September 25, 2011, 10:50:34 AM
This is stunning music!

After hearing this, on the heels of a few other non-symphonies, I am starting to think he is an even better composer outside of his symphonies!


Well, the man himself once said that the operas contained 'the best in me'... I know all the symphonies, so I can compare. The operatic music fully shows the mercurial side of Brian's genius, and the effect is astonishing. I have the sense that my Brian knowledge has made a quantum leap. This is a happy day!


Brian completed Turandot on 18 May 1951. That's 60 years for the first professional recording of these 'bleeding chunks', to use the Wagnerian term.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on September 25, 2011, 05:14:44 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 25, 2011, 09:24:11 AM
Couldn't help myself - just listened to the new Toccata CD. One word - wow! Add this one immediately to the Dutton CD of symphonies 10 & 31. I am angry that this colourful, endlessly inventive music had to wait so long to be recorded.

Envy! I like the idea of buying digital downloads directly from the producer - the profit margins must be in the multiples of CD - but until they offer lossless... :-X
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on September 25, 2011, 07:30:49 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 25, 2011, 10:56:03 AM

Well, the man himself once said that the operas contained 'the best in me'... I know all the symphonies, so I can compare. The operatic music fully shows the mercurial side of Brian's genius, and the effect is astonishing. I have the sense that my Brian knowledge has made a quantum leap. This is a happy day!


Brian completed Turandot on 18 May 1951. That's 60 years for the first professional recording of these 'bleeding chunks', to use the Wagnerian term.

Quick and perhaps too obvious question--how does Brian's version compare, in terms of dramatic action, etc. to the Puccini opera?  (I'm thinking in terms of the libretto here;  obviously the musical differences amount to "one's by Puccini and one's by Brian")
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on September 25, 2011, 08:29:20 PM
Knowing Brian, the model may have been Busoni's opera of the same name...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 25, 2011, 09:24:18 PM
@Lethe The mp3s' bitrate varies from 192 kbps to 332. Not lossless, but sonically perfectly acceptable to me (though I'll be ordering the CD, too).

@Jeffrey For an excellent introduction look here:

www.havergalbrian.org/turandot2.htm

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 26, 2011, 08:49:49 AM
I hesitate to return to the issue of  'Das Siegeslied' ;D but I was re-reading bits of Vol. III of Malcolm MacDonald's book on the symphonies last night(to see what, if anything, he has to say about 'Turandot'........not very much actually).

I turned to Chapter 32 "Elegy and Recapitulation" and read....

"...indeed, I would hardly argue with anyone who wanted to claim that 'Das Siegeslied' is Brian's greatest symphony altogether."

and then...

"Aspects of 'Das Siegeslied are paralleled in Vaughan Williams's Fourth Symphony and 'Flos Campi', and (much more distantly) in 'Belshazzar's Feast' and perhaps Bliss's 'Morning Heroes'; but Brian's vision, working at its intensest pitch, makes these hardly inconsiderable works pall by comparison...."

Now...I am allowed to say this because Malcolm has been a good friend for just over 50 years...but this is a dubious assertion(to be polite) and almost nonsensical(to be really rude) ;D

Over the years I have frequently taken him to task over his over-mischievous lumping of William Alwyn, Lennox Berkeley, Peter Racine Fricker, Alan Rawsthorne and Edmund Rubbra together as composers of 'Cheltenham Symphonies'-"innocuous" works, with "post-Vaughan Williams tunes" .."but with little to offer more exploratory minds". To be fair to Malcolm, he now concedes that this was too harsh and unfair :)

I seem to have forgotten however the passage on 'Das Siegeslied'.

It does HB's cause no good at all to make these sorts of comparisons. It is one thing to assert that 'Das Siegeslied' is a superb work; I have no difficulty with anyone making such an assertion, if that is what they think. But to be told that the Vaughan Williams 4th and 'Belshazzar's Feast' "pall by comparison"?

VW's 'London', 'Pastoral' and 4th symphonies, along with Walton's 1st, are among the finest British symphonies of the two decades prior to the outbreak of World War Two. The VW 4th is an unquestionable masterpiece. There is no justification, in my opinion, in 'talking up' 'Das Siegeslied' by comparing it to other works of such quality, not just favourably, but using the words "pall by comparison".

I will continue to support the recording and performance of as much of Brian's music as possible but I will also continue to do my best to argue the case for other British composers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 26, 2011, 08:56:07 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 26, 2011, 08:49:49 AM
(to see what, if anything, he has to say about 'Turandot'........not very much actually).

See the link in my earlier post - an excellent introduction by... Malcolm.


QuoteIt does HB's cause no good at all to make these sorts of comparisons. It is one thing to assert that 'Das Siegeslied' is a superb work; I have no difficulty with anyone making such an assertion, if that is what they think. But to be told that the Vaughan Williams 4th and 'Belshazzar's Feast' "pall by comparison"?

VW's 'London', 'Pastoral' and 4th symphonies, along with Walton's 1st, are among the finest British symphonies of the two decades prior to the outbreak of World War Two. The VW 4th is an unquestionable masterpiece. There is no justification, in my opinion, in 'talking up' 'Das Siegeslied' by comparing it to other works of such quality, not just favourably, but using the words "pall by comparison".


I agree. And it will have an adverse effect, too, namely that people won't take Brian seriously to begin with.

QuoteI will continue to support the recording and performance of as much of Brian's music as possible but I will also continue to do my best to argue the case for other British composers.


The world of music contains more composers (thank God!) than HB.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on September 26, 2011, 09:07:31 AM
Whew....got away without a scolding ;D

Sorry...I should have had much more faith in your excellent, sound judgment :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 26, 2011, 09:09:12 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on September 26, 2011, 09:07:31 AM
Whew....got away without a scolding ;D

Sorry...I should have had much more faith in your excellent, sound judgment :)


I know exactly what Brian can give me. I also know what he can't...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 27, 2011, 02:37:30 AM
I came across another HB forum on Gramophone Magazine. A certain Delfter was also to be found there surprise surprise. There is a discussion about the Unicorn 10/21 and the sound quality of the LP which was described as muddy. I've never been struck with the official CD release which I find to be dessicated with a scrawny top end and all the middle/bass frequency warmth missing. Steve got me hooked on vinyl again recently when I transferred some of his LPs so I dusted the deck off again and did my own LP transfer of 10/21. This sounds good to my ears. Over the years I got lazy by playing the official Kanchana CD instead of the faffing around with vinyl - pure laziness of the first order. This transfer removes the faff but gives me the preferable vinyl warmth. You may agree or disagree but here's a link in high quality MP3 sound.
//www.mediafire.com/?0ir5yy8b5k82d
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 27, 2011, 02:43:38 AM
Hi, John! Thanks for taking the trouble, I'll certainly be trying those mp3s...


[Listened to the opening minutes of 'The Hunting of the Snark' - whose work is this?!]


P.S. Listening to them will bring back memories. That LP played a great role in my life, as you know.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 27, 2011, 03:00:50 AM
Just checked - you are right about the CD mastering! Your vinyl rip sounds much better...  :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 27, 2011, 04:10:59 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 27, 2011, 03:00:50 AM
Just checked - you are right about the CD mastering! Your vinyl rip sounds much better...  :o

Either we are both deaf or there's something nice about vinyl. The Hunting of the Snark was wriitten by Douglas Young who was composer in residence for the LSSO in the early1980s. He wrote a number of full orchestral works as well and these were issued on vinyl. Very interesting stuff.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on September 27, 2011, 08:08:45 PM
slightly OT--but this one is listed in Arkivmusic's new releases section.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/AMG/covers/full/190/1901795.jpg)

Arkiv's blurb:
Maurice Saylor's setting of Lewis Carroll's The Hunting of the Snark is written for a chorus and 'Snarkestra', Saylor's word for his quirky, misfit pit-band. This includes all manner of percussion and woodwinds, as well as such exotica as harmonica, bass accordion and washtub, instruments "reviled by society at large", in Saylor's words. To the nonsense text he brings a riot of colour and wit as well as a series of traditional devices such as refrains, sea chanties, and a chorale. The result is music of vibrancy, excitement, and even dangerous volatility. The three silent film scores are pacey, dapper and splendidly jazzy.

I'm not hurrying to get this, you understand....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on September 27, 2011, 08:36:59 PM
@John, again, an excellent rip of the two symphonies. Your copy of the LP is in better nick than mine  which I wore out years ago!
It does sound better than the CD :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 27, 2011, 10:51:54 PM
Quote from: Hattoff on September 27, 2011, 08:36:59 PM
@John, again, an excellent rip of the two symphonies. Your copy of the LP is in better nick than mine  which I wore out years ago!
It does sound better than the CD :)

Only been played twice!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on September 27, 2011, 11:32:29 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 27, 2011, 10:51:54 PM
Only been played twice!!

How can you admit such a thing on this board? :o

Ohhh, the iniquity :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 28, 2011, 04:51:58 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on September 27, 2011, 11:32:29 PM
How can you admit such a thing on this board? :o

Ohhh, the iniquity :)

I played it when it came out and then put it away for the best part of 40 years until I ripped it earlier this week. To be fair I did buy the CD and that has been played many times. Perhaps as much as 4 times or maybe even 5. Am I forgiven? By the way, I'm not happy with the rip and intend to have another go. Too many bumps remain in the quiet sections. When better MP3s are ready I will post them again.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 28, 2011, 07:45:52 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 27, 2011, 08:08:45 PM
slightly OT--but this one is listed in Arkivmusic's new releases section.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/AMG/covers/full/190/1901795.jpg)

Arkiv's blurb:
Maurice Saylor's setting of Lewis Carroll's The Hunting of the Snark is written for a chorus and 'Snarkestra', Saylor's word for his quirky, misfit pit-band. This includes all manner of percussion and woodwinds, as well as such exotica as harmonica, bass accordion and washtub, instruments "reviled by society at large", in Saylor's words. To the nonsense text he brings a riot of colour and wit as well as a series of traditional devices such as refrains, sea chanties, and a chorale. The result is music of vibrancy, excitement, and even dangerous volatility. The three silent film scores are pacey, dapper and splendidly jazzy.

I'm not hurrying to get this, you understand....

How strange. I was only exchanging emails with Johan recently about a version of The Hunting of the Snark composed by Douglas Young and recorded for Cameo by the LSSO in the early 1980s.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 28, 2011, 08:10:52 AM
I've redone the Unicorn 10/21 vinyl rip. Not perfect but the bumps and clunks have been successfully removed from the off stage trumpet and horn passages and the last section of 10 is now much cleaner. That's it chaps. Not doing it again. At least it sounds like an orchestra now. I'm very taken with the attack and fire in the playing - it's all pretty fearless despite the technical difficulties of the writing. The intonation issues are less obvious now that the De Montfort Hall warm glow has been restored. I'm actually very proud of this playing overall. For 14 to 18 year olds it's highly competitive stuff. Still gutted that HB never heard the thing.
http://www.mediafire.com/?0ir5yy8b5k82d
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 28, 2011, 08:15:28 AM
Many thanks, John, for 'going that extra mile'. The LSSO Tenth has not been superseded, only equalled by Martyn Brabbins. I still prefer it, I think...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 28, 2011, 08:36:20 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 28, 2011, 08:15:28 AM
Many thanks, John, for 'going that extra mile'. The LSSO Tenth has not been superseded, only equalled by Martyn Brabbins. I still prefer it, I think...
Leicester 1 Brabbins 1.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on September 28, 2011, 09:17:28 AM
That looks about par for the course this season, though...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 29, 2011, 01:44:31 AM
Beware the Jabberwocky,my friends!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 29, 2011, 02:43:26 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 29, 2011, 01:44:31 AM
Beware the Jabberwocky,my friends!


Jabba + Wookiee


(http://www.keilanluke.com/Jabba-the-Hut-1-749957.jpg)  (http://jgtwo.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/mask_a_025.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 29, 2011, 03:56:24 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on September 30, 2011, 03:33:43 PM
As predicted, designed for every Brianite's Christmas stocking... (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/ym.asp?ym=2011_12&vw=dc)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on September 30, 2011, 03:46:52 PM
Quote from: Philip Legge on September 30, 2011, 03:33:43 PM
As predicted, designed for every Brianite's Christmas stocking... (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/ym.asp?ym=2011_12&vw=dc)

Huzzah!

Though I have to say: the art department failed on that one. Might be my least favorite Hyperion CD cover of all time. In fact, it definitely is: would it have killed them to list more than one performer on the cover, or to coordinate the colors, or to choose a different font for "Gothic"?

Interesting that they're including 9 minutes of applause. A valuable historical testament, maybe, but will anyone really listen to that track?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 30, 2011, 03:50:03 PM
Well-spotted, Philip! Yes, that cover is a bit basic... Perhaps it can still be changed?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on September 30, 2011, 04:28:33 PM
I really hope that's a placeholder. If any piece allows you to go self-indulgent on the art direction then it's this one. Glad they avoided the 7 billion index points that the Naxos disc has, it makes navigation a chore "how far am I through this track? Let's get the calculator out".
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on September 30, 2011, 05:48:33 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 30, 2011, 03:46:52 PM
Huzzah!

Though I have to say: the art department failed on that one. Might be my least favorite Hyperion CD cover of all time. In fact, it definitely is: would it have killed them to list more than one performer on the cover, or to coordinate the colors, or to choose a different font for "Gothic"?
well, maybe they thought using a Gothic font was too obvious....

????
GMG has no option for a Gothic type font?  Where's the benevolent dictator Rob when you need him?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 03, 2011, 12:58:06 AM
Hello Dundonnell - did you get my reply to your message? I don't trust electronic mail so I thought I would check.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 03, 2011, 06:12:06 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 03, 2011, 12:58:06 AM
Hello Dundonnell - did you get my reply to your message? I don't trust electronic mail so I thought I would check.

Yes, I did. Thanks very much :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on October 03, 2011, 07:43:11 PM
Do we have a current list of recordings somewhere?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on October 03, 2011, 08:02:37 PM
Quote from: Philip Legge on September 30, 2011, 03:33:43 PM
As predicted, designed for every Brianite's Christmas stocking... (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/ym.asp?ym=2011_12&vw=dc)

60-second MP3 samples are now available for every track. Audiophiles, compare away!
The only really clear difference I hear is that the timpani presence has been satisfyingly beefed up from the original broadcast balance. There's no glimpse of the organ but I hope it rings clearer too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on October 03, 2011, 10:05:38 PM
Pleasing but I'm very sorry to say, the cover design is vile. :'(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 04, 2011, 02:58:32 AM
It's not very good (!),but it's the music that matters & making the performance commercially available. Nevertheless,I believe that good cover artwork does encourage sales,okay,maybe not for people like Dundonnell and Johan,but for the average music lover,who isn't as into less mainstream composers like we are & might just spot the cd on,say,Amazon or a cd shelf,while idly browsing.
Still,maybe it's like one of those pre release pop cds with makeshift artwork?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 04, 2011, 03:00:58 AM
Actually,not to be sarcastic;but it reminds me a little of the packaging for some of those low cost supermarket food ranges. 'No Frills Sausages',anyone? ;D
(Though,maybe not in BLACK packaging! :o )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 04, 2011, 03:04:42 AM
How a CD is packaged certainly adds to its desirability for those who don't know a piece or the composer. We'll have to wait and see whether this is Hyperion's final idea...


I have listened to the clips - the sound is deeper and warmer, and the applause envelops you...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 04, 2011, 03:14:07 AM
It makes for an interesting comparison with the Naxos 21st Limited Edition,which is also very plain and 'minimalistic'. Yet,even I was tempted to buy it & you know what I think of the Naxos Gothic! :o

NB: I certainly won't avoid buying the Hyperion set because of the cover!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 04, 2011, 03:25:13 AM
That WOULD be silly!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 04, 2011, 03:33:24 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on October 03, 2011, 07:43:11 PM
Do we have a current list of recordings somewhere?


http://www.havergalbrian.org/discogra.htm (http://www.havergalbrian.org/discogra.htm)


If you have any questions, ask them...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on October 04, 2011, 06:09:14 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 04, 2011, 03:33:24 AM

http://www.havergalbrian.org/discogra.htm (http://www.havergalbrian.org/discogra.htm)


If you have any questions, ask them...

thank you sir!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 04, 2011, 06:18:06 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 04, 2011, 03:00:58 AM
Actually,not to be sarcastic;but it reminds me a little of the packaging for some of those low cost supermarket food ranges. 'No Frills Sausages',anyone? ;D
(Though,maybe not in BLACK packaging! :o )
Two points:
1) I don't give a monkeys about the artwork. I can read.
2) Hyperion should offer a free pack of sausages with each CD  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 04, 2011, 07:43:41 AM
Say Sausages!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on October 04, 2011, 08:19:25 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 03, 2011, 08:02:37 PMthe timpani presence has been satisfyingly beefed up

Unlike the sausages.

Quote from: Brian on October 03, 2011, 08:02:37 PMThere's no glimpse of the organ

Saucy - shouldn't have been looking anyway!

:o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 04, 2011, 08:24:06 AM
This saucy so-and-so DID look, and saw the organ supporting the chorus in the opening of the Judex... ;-)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 04, 2011, 02:46:18 PM
I love those double entendres!

On a more serious note,I'm going to resist the Brian Toccata Vol 2 until the nice shiny cd comes out. In fact,I haven't even listened to samples yet,except the bits I've taped off Radio 3. Which reminds me to get my a*** shifted up through that too tiny trapdoor & put up that nice high gain fm stereo radio aerial that's been leaning against the corner of the room for several weeks now. One thing I can't stand,diy & crawling around attics. If I had an Ali Baba like Dundonnell haul of off air tapes up there I wouldn't mind so much!
In terms of repertory,this Toccata cd really does fill some gaps & hopefully,sooner or later,some enterprising party might get around to letting us hear the rest of some of these opera's. All the signs are encouraging & after a long gap when the only Brian recordings seem to be reissued Marco Polo recordings. In fact,I think I'll put Vol 1 on,right now!
Incidentally,I hope BBC Legends will eventually release these:

The Poole Das Siegeslied
The Wine of Summer with Brian Rayner Cooke
Ralph Holmes Violin Concerto

I'm jumping the gun of course! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 04, 2011, 03:01:41 PM
Surprise, surprise- I have the Violin Concerto with Ralph Holmes on tape ;D

I shall avoid commenting on the double entendres apart from expressing my strongest disapproval ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 04, 2011, 03:16:38 PM
Bisengaliev is excellent in the VC on Marco Polo/Naxos. But Holmes is better in the slow movement - that ending is infinitely moving and poetic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 04, 2011, 03:17:45 PM
I thought you might!!!!!!!!!!!! I actually have it on cassette,minus the last few bars,which got taped over. I can't remember how! :o :o :o Anyway,I actually prefer the earlier performance to the Marco Polo,which,personally,leaves me cold. I find more poetry in Holmes's performance & both the soloist and conductor give the work more time to breathe. The Marco Polo feels very rushed. In fact,I actually don't like it at all! :o :o A terrible confession to make,I know! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 04, 2011, 03:19:33 PM
Oh dear,after typing that,I've just seen Johan's post! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 04, 2011, 03:19:46 PM
Great minds...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 04, 2011, 03:39:59 PM
Of course,Holmes,apparently,made some 'simplifications'(!),so I suppose it is a bit rich of me to judge. Yet,like the LSSO performance of Brian's 10th v the Dutton,I just prefer the earlier reading,and I'm  not JUST referring to Bisengaliev's playing,I mean the conducting of the orchestra as well.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 04, 2011, 03:53:11 PM
Bisengaliev's live performance of the VC at the 21st anniversary of the HBS (1995) was better than his recording. I was there, at St James's Church Piccadilly (and so was fellow member Christo, and perhaps others?!) I also prefer the Holmes, in spite of his simplifications. And I think I still prefer the LSSO Tenth, too...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 04, 2011, 03:59:53 PM
I'm sure. Not knocking him. He's obviously a wonderful musician & who the hell am I to criticise him! I just find more poetry,insight and feeling in the earlier reading & the pacing of the performance feels just right.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 05, 2011, 03:58:45 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 04, 2011, 02:46:18 PM
Incidentally,I hope BBC Legends will eventually release these:

The Poole Das Siegeslied
The Wine of Summer with Brian Rayner Cooke
Ralph Holmes Violin Concerto

I'm jumping the gun of course! ;D

If Das Siegeslied is ever released let's hope it's just on bail and it reoffends  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 05, 2011, 04:09:23 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 04, 2011, 03:39:59 PM
Of course,Holmes,apparently,made some 'simplifications'(!),so I suppose it is a bit rich of me to judge. Yet,like the LSSO performance of Brian's 10th v the Dutton,I just prefer the earlier reading,and I'm  not JUST referring to Bisengaliev's playing,I mean the conducting of the orchestra as well.
I doubt very much that Ralph made simplifications. He probably made some mods to postion changes etc to make it "sound" properly. I bet the score is a mess with errors all over the place! He was a magnificent player, a tremendous teacher and one of this country's greatest ever talents. Died at a tragically young age. His Delius is wonderful. Lovely bloke too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 05, 2011, 04:18:05 AM
I love Holmes in Delius and Brian. His professionalism isn't in doubt. But neither is Brian's... I quote from the booklet I bought at that memorable concert in 1995:

"Like most of Brian's important scores, the Violin Concerto had to wait a long time for its first performance, but it found a champion at last in the late Ralph Holmes, who recorded two performances for the BBC and played the Concerto in public at St. John's Smith Square, London. Holmes made some simplifications of Brian's cruelly taxing solo part, but for his recording with the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra under Lionel Friend and for tonight's performance, Marat Bisengaliev has restored it exactly as the composer intended."


I own the score, by the way (expensive thing, bought when I was richer than I am now!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 05, 2011, 05:01:52 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 05, 2011, 04:18:05 AM
I love Holmes in Delius and Brian. His professionalism isn't in doubt. But neither is Brian's... I quote from the booklet I bought at that memorable concert in 1995:

"Like most of Brian's important scores, the Violin Concerto had to wait a long time for its first performance, but it found a champion at last in the late Ralph Holmes, who recorded two performances for the BBC and played the Concerto in public at St. John's Smith Square, London. Holmes made some simplifications of Brian's cruelly taxing solo part, but for his recording with the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra under Lionel Friend and for tonight's performance, Marat Bisengaliev has restored it exactly as the composer intended."


I own the score, by the way (expensive thing, bought when I was richer than I am now!)
I stand corrected, Johan. Did Brian work with a violinist during the compositional process or do it "on the hoof" so to speak? Bisengaliev may have restored it to the "original version" but this original version (let's call it a first draft) could well have benefitted from some professional input a la the Tchaik concerto. What I mean is that Brian may well have changed the work had he heard the thing performed - again, I have no idea whether or not he had the opportunity to hear it or not, either at the piano with a soloist or in orchestral rehearsal. For "cruelly taxing" read "poorly written" to be really cynical. I've not heard Ralph but have the Marco Polo - the solo writing sounds a bit clumsy like a first draft. The playing is fine, the recording OK. If the Holmes becomes available I would love to hear what he did to the piece. The violin concerto, like so much of Brian, always sounds to my ears as if it's not quite finished and that the composer was starved of the opportunity to listen to the music and make changes accordingly. I find this frustrating. It's like listening to the first draft of Sibelius 5 (very imperfect) and not being able to hear the fully developed masterpiece. Maybe had Elgar treated Brian a bit more kndly and helped him into the mainstream, criticisms such as mine would never have been necessary. Being totally ignored just didn't help. Even the master orchestrator Elgar needed practical help during the composition of his own truly world class fiddle concerto. I'm not knocking Brian, just showing a bit of annoyance that the bloke didn't get much help in bringing his ideas and structures to a satisfying conclusion - my own subjective opinion, I hasten tio add. I will now cleanse myself by playing Bartok 2. Wonderful stuff.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 05, 2011, 06:39:12 AM
Brian knew what he was doing. He was a professional music critic, was present at countless rehearsals and concerts, studied scores voraciously and knew and mixed with musicians and composers. He was not ignorant or isolated. His music was simply not played a lot after World War I. As for his writing for the violin(s), here are two pertinent quotes from Malcolm MacDonald, lifted from the chapter 'Brian and the Orchestra' in vol. 3 of his classic study:

"(...) it is certainly the case that we can often find the complete harmonic and contrapuntal essentials of the musical fabric embedded in the brass parts alone. There is a concomitant effect on the ictus of the music - the 'kick' of the beat - which is felt differently when communicated by blown instruments rather than those which are bowed or struck. It also seems to affect Brian's notation, in that he has a tendency to write for the strings in the flat keys that best favour the brass, without any enharmonic alterations to take account of string-players' preference for the sharp ones: another reason why Brian is not exactly the violinists' favourite composer." (p. 205)

"Never could it be said that Brian neglected the violins. Every symphony bristles with passages of hair-raising difficulty, and he developed several highly individual trademarks in writing for them - such as a short burst of very rapid notes to produce a curious effect like the call of a bird or small animal... (example for Symphony No. 7) Moreover, very nearly all the symphonies contain at least one prominent violin solo - sometimes of considerable length and virtuoso standard. (...) But there seems to be a general consensus that players frequently find the writing ungrateful and unidiomatic - sometimes almost to the point of perversity. In addition to the notational problems mentioned earlier, Brian demands awkward leaps and a great deal of rapid passage-work that lies uneasily under the fingers, much of it in very high registers, some of it cruelly exposed, apparently calculated to cause havoc with ensemble and intonation. (The same problems occur in countless modern scores, of course, but players seem less prepared for them in what appears to them a less 'advanced' idiom.) In addition Brian blithely directs changes from pizzicato to arco, and the putting-on or removal of mutes, in an inhumanly short space of time (the problem of mutes is sometimes extended to the brass as well). One wonders whether Brian's childhood violin lessons were in some way painful to him, and whether that might account for the marked lack of sympathy he seemed to feel for the poor orchestral violinist even while at the same time he availed himself of the instrument's entire expressive capacity. And there is no question that when he wrote such passages, he expected faultless execution: perfect intonation, whipcrack rhythmic precision. The nearer to such an ideal the performance approaches, the better his violin-writing sounds; when playing merely average or routine, Brian's music - and especially its string-writing - suffers worse than most." (p. 226-227)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 05, 2011, 07:55:56 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 05, 2011, 06:39:12 AM
Brian knew what he was doing. He was a professional music critic, was present at countless rehearsals and concerts, studied scores voraciously and knew and mixed with musicians and composers. He was not ignorant or isolated. His music was simply not played a lot after World War I.
Johan, I'm in no way implying that Brian didn't know what he was doing. Many people treat him as a total amateur and he certainly wasn't that and it is really insulting to the man to suggest this to be the case. Being a professional criitic, reading scores and mixing with musicians is all well and good. He certainly wasn't ignorant or isolated. What he suffered from was the oxygen of actually hearing what his dots actually sounded like. I agree with the quotes you included about the strings. Not only are the keys generally unkind - best suited to brass bands! - but the writing is awkward. I'm sorry but that's what it is. Awkward. I honestly think that his craftsmanship would have been sharpened up if he had been in a position to listen to the music and then edit it accordingly - most of the great composers did this and there's no shame in it. As you know, I have mixed views on Brian but certainly enjoy more of his music than I used to do. Unfortunately the awkwardness just will not go away and this is a severe weakness. Indeed it's probably a key reason why the music hasn't featured on the desks of the great international orchestras and conductors. Over to you ........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 05, 2011, 08:40:32 AM
I take your point that it is unhelpful not hearing your mature works played for a very long time. It is a bit like not being read for a writer. When you are a published author, you discover how people can react to the way you have transformed your vision into style. And through this you can hone your craft. Brian was denied this. And that's a pity. The greatest artists combine, as Ernest Newman once wrote about Wagner, a piercing vision and a consummate style. Brian undoubtedly had the piercing vision. The way he transformed that vision into notated sound certainly has its awkwardnesses. Whether he would have ironed these out if he had been more successful, or would have found different and more easily executable solutions that would have done justice to the vision just as well, we'll never know. As it is, the awkwardnesses such as they are are a problem mainly for the players, not for the listeners. I love that Brian sound, and his vision comes through loud and clear. I hope players, too, will come to think that the extraordinary world this music discloses more than compensates for the incidental groan it may sometimes elicit in the playing of it...

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 05, 2011, 09:54:18 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 05, 2011, 08:40:32 AM
I take your point that it is unhelpful not hearing your mature works played for a very long time. It is a bit like not being read for a writer. When you are a published author, you discover how people can react to the way you have transformed your vision into style. And through this you can hone your craft. Brian was denied this. And that's a pity. The greatest artists combine, as Ernest Newman once wrote about Wagner, a piercing vision and a consummate style. Brian undoubtedly had the piercing vision. The way he transformed that vision into notated sound certainly has its awkwardnesses. Whether he would have ironed these out if he had been more successful, or would have found different and more easily executable solutions that would have done justice to the vision just as well, we'll never know. As it is, the awkwardnesses such as they are a problem mainly for the players, not for the listeners. I love that Brian sound, and his vision comes through loud and clear. I hope players, too, will come to think that the extraordinary world this music discloses more than compensates for the incidental groan it may sometimes elicit in the playing of it...
Good repost old chap. Actually the right word is riposte :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Wanderer on October 05, 2011, 12:41:18 PM
(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/eaee7e5a5a911c3b/034571179711.png) (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA67971/2&vw=dc)

Coming in December!  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 05, 2011, 12:43:08 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on October 05, 2011, 12:41:18 PMComing in December!  8)


To a theatre near you.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 06, 2011, 01:10:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 05, 2011, 12:43:08 PM

To a theatre near you.  ;D
If it's Delph theatre it will be very cosy. Only holds 100.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 06, 2011, 12:26:16 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on October 05, 2011, 12:41:18 PM
(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/eaee7e5a5a911c3b/034571179711.png) (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA67971/2&vw=dc)

Coming in December!  8)
Presto says Nov 28!  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 06, 2011, 12:30:04 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 06, 2011, 12:26:16 PM
Presto says Nov 28!  ;D


Which is correct, the anniversary of Brian's death (1972).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on October 06, 2011, 12:36:24 PM
And of my birth...  0:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 06, 2011, 12:39:19 PM
Quote from: Luke on October 06, 2011, 12:36:24 PM
And of my birth...


"Luke, I am your father!"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 06, 2011, 01:27:36 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 06, 2011, 12:39:19 PM

"Luke, I am your father!"
That's a good one. One point for J.Z.!  :P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on October 06, 2011, 07:56:23 PM
Quote from: Wanderer on October 05, 2011, 12:41:18 PM
(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/eaee7e5a5a911c3b/034571179711.png) (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA67971/2&vw=dc)

Coming in December!  8)

Hopefully, the sound will be good. Some of the playback from Hyperion didn't sound too promising, but hopefully it's completely on my end and no theirs.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 06, 2011, 10:32:01 PM
As I  wrote earlier, to me the sound of the clips is better (fuller, deeper) than in the recordings made from the online radio broadcasts...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on October 07, 2011, 05:46:52 AM
Is the US release date the same as in the UK? Or should I have Presto mail across the pond for me?

(Even if I don't like it, the more people who buy this, the better chance that Hyperion and/or Chandos or someone else will take in interest in his other music).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 08, 2011, 12:26:10 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 07, 2011, 05:46:52 AM
Is the US release date the same as in the UK?


Sorry, don't know...

Quote(Even if I don't like it, the more people who buy this, the better chance that Hyperion and/or Chandos or someone else will take in interest in his other music).


Indeed!


Btw, the booklet notes are already there for perusal...


http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/80dc107384caecb4/67971-B.pdf (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/80dc107384caecb4/67971-B.pdf)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 08, 2011, 02:02:47 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 08, 2011, 12:26:10 AM

Sorry, don't know...


Indeed!


Btw, the booklet notes are already there for perusal...


http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/d4b61f56d2f6c6d0/67971-B.pdf (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/notes/d4b61f56d2f6c6d0/67971-B.pdf)

Why do Hyperion call it ludex rather than Judex. Is this a typo??
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 08, 2011, 02:07:26 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 08, 2011, 02:02:47 AM
Why do Hyperion call it ludex rather than Judex. Is this a typo??


No. In Latin there is no J. They are (hyper-)correct.


(Ivlivs Caesar)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on October 08, 2011, 05:29:52 AM
So it should really be 'Ivdex'!

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 08, 2011, 05:40:28 AM
Hyperion don't seem to keen on that hyperlink! I have seen the notes,but not a booklet,so far. This release will join their pioneering third symphony,which,I will now reveal,is my favourite Havergal Brian symphony. A new recording with Brabbins conducting,if possible,would be very welcome,indeed. When,I listen to it,allot of Johns comments about Brian's orchestration (etc),come to mind;but the third just teems with good ideas,possibly TOO many,for it's own good. The 'landscape' Brian evokes is so fantastical,sometimes lush. In fact,the sheer intricacy and lushness of the landscape almost makes me think of Villa Lobos at times (Choros No 11,anyone?). An odd comparison,I know. Fortunately,for Brian,unlike you're average Villa Lobos epic,Brian has enough good ideas to follow the grandeur of his vision all the way through. In fact,I actually find this wild,wacky symphony even more compelling than the Gothic!!!! :o Oh,and I can just imagine John tearing this clumsily,eccentric symphony apart!!!

Incidentally,I believe lubex is something used by porn actresses! :o :o :o



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 08, 2011, 05:48:11 AM
This IS the Havergal Brian thead,isn't it?!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 08, 2011, 05:51:09 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 08, 2011, 02:07:26 AM

No. In Latin there is no J. They are (hyper-)correct.


(Ivlivs Caesar)
Latin? That's about as much use as the England football and rugby teams.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 08, 2011, 05:54:52 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 08, 2011, 05:40:28 AM
Hyperion don't seem to keen on that hyperlink! I have seen the notes,but not a booklet,so far. This release will join their pioneering third symphony,which,I will now reveal,is my favourite Havergal Brian symphony. A new recording with Brabbins conducting,if possible,would be very welcome,indeed. When,I listen to it,allot of Johns comments about Brian's orchestration (etc),come to mind;but the third just teems with good ideas,possibly TOO many,for it's own good. The 'landscape' Brian evokes is so fantastical,sometimes lush. In fact,the sheer intricacy and lushness of the landscape almost makes me think of Villa Lobos at times (Choros No 11,anyone?). An odd comparison,I know. Fortunately,for Brian,unlike you're average Villa Lobos epic,Brian has enough good ideas to follow the grandeur of his vision all the way through. In fact,I actually find this wild,wacky symphony even more compelling than the Gothic!!!! :o Oh,and I can just imagine John tearing this clumsily,eccentric symphony apart!!!

Incidentally,I believe lubex is something used by porn actresses! :o :o :o

I quite like the 3rd. Just don't like the actual sound of the Helios CD. There you go. I bet that's shocked you. I'm feeling charitable today as I listen to Dvorak 3.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Wanderer on October 08, 2011, 06:20:52 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 08, 2011, 02:07:26 AM

No. In Latin there is no J. They are (hyper-)correct.

Exactly. I like it when they get these little details right.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Wanderer on October 08, 2011, 06:25:43 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 08, 2011, 05:51:09 AM
Latin? That's about as much use as the England football and rugby teams.

It might not have been your intention, but you actually talked those teams up quite a bit with this.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 08, 2011, 06:56:01 AM
Cilgwyn, Hyperion forbids 'hotlinking', I just realised. So - go to their site and then to the recordings of December. There you'll find the booklet notes.

Martyn - 'Ivdex' would be hyper-hyper-correct! People would think it a typo for Index...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on October 08, 2011, 08:52:40 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 08, 2011, 02:07:26 AM

No. In Latin there is no J. They are (hyper-)correct.


(Ivlivs Caesar)

Thank you for that validation. In my blog and in my review-in-progress I've repeatedly written "Iudex." It wasn't a conscious decision at all - but it must have come out of my year of Latin lessons...

EDIT: Realization. The notes, and most listeners, say that the ending of "Iudex" brings together the "full forces." But the children's choirs aren't singing, are they? Is there then no moment in the symphony scored for the full forces?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on October 08, 2011, 10:00:17 AM
The biggest page of the score is page 245 and here the children aren't marked. But I kind of imagine they ought to be singing here and at other climaxes. The score is not completely clear about this stuff (maybe the vocal score is...)

BTW it is arguable whether Hyperion really are 'hyper-correct' with their Iudex, seeing as it may be correct Latin, but it isn't what Brian wrote. Judex is what the score says, so IMO it is the spelling one should employ in the context of the piece
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 08, 2011, 10:06:13 AM
You have a point. In 'disobeying' Brian, they are even 'incorrect'... It seems that for Hyperion correct Latin usage overrides a composer's spelling.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 09, 2011, 02:28:21 AM
Quote from: Luke on October 08, 2011, 10:00:17 AM
The biggest page of the score is page 245 and here the children aren't marked. But I kind of imagine they ought to be singing here and at other climaxes. The score is not completely clear about this stuff (maybe the vocal score is...)

BTW it is arguable whether Hyperion really are 'hyper-correct' with their Iudex, seeing as it may be correct Latin, but it isn't what Brian wrote. Judex is what the score says, so IMO it is the spelling one should employ in the context of the piece
I agree Luke. It should be Judex. Should I start spelling my name lohn? :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on October 09, 2011, 05:21:55 PM
Classical Latin did not have a letter J, and the three letters U, V, and W in the modern Roman alphabet were represented by the single or double V — it is a curiosity in English that we call W a double-U, but it would be equivalent if we called it a double-V: its origin was the double instance of the same letter in classical Latin.

The pronunciation of modern Latin bears marked difference from the pronunciation of classical Latin, which is historically responsible for the differentiation of I from J and U, V, and W from one another. What is these days called "Ecclesiastical Latin" is of course an Italianate pronunciation of the equivalent Italian vowels and consonants (it was mandated at a relatively late date by one of the recent Popes). Before this fiat, the pronunciation of church Latin varied widely across the continent: Austro-Germanic countries still retain a rather different school of Latin pronunciation, and the sacred works of composers (e.g. Mozart) often betray this bias in their word-setting.

England used to have a localised Latin dialect which is still partially in evidence in the vernacular: the C in et cetera is an "English" S, not an "Italianate" CH. If pronounced according to the English style, the J in Judex would be a soft G (like "judge") rather than the Y dipthong preceding the vowel. Most professional English choirs have abandoned English-dialect Latin even for works where it would be appropriate (e.g. the sacred music of the Tudor era) and standardise on Italianate Latin for everything; whereas I have sung with some Australian choirs which routinely do adopt historical pronunciation (French Latin is frequently hilarious for all of the words with a U vowel in them).

Returning to Brian: there is only the evidence of the short score of the Te Deum (which few people have ever seen) to confirm or repudiate the manifest errors that are in the Cranz full score (still available on IMSLP for US downloaders). Brian was no Latin scholar and would not have known if the Latin text copied out for him was correct or not — at some point, either the Cranz copyists, or Brian himself, or the supplier of the text (a musician named Allan) committed a variety of howlers:

Wrong words:
1. ... Te Propheterum laudabilis numerus... the correct word is Prophetarum.
2. ... aperuisti credentilus regna caelorum... the correct word is credentibus.
3. ... Tu ad dexteram Dei sedes, in gloria Patrem (in the last bar of movement 4 only). The correct word used elsewhere is Patris.
4. ... et benedic hereditati tuae... correct, but misspelled in most (not all) places as hereditate.
5. ... et rege eos et extolle eos... the correct word is illos.
6. ... Dignare Domine, die isto sini peccato nos custodire... the correct word is sine.
7. ... quemadmodum speravimis in te... the correct word is speravimus.

One word mistakenly divided into two or three:
8. ... Te ergo quae sumus... (quaesumus is correct)
9. ... vene randum tuum verum... (venerandum is correct)
10. ... Tu, de victo mortis aculeo... (devicto is correct)
11. ... quem ad modum speravimus in te... (quemadmodum is correct)

Two words mistakenly combined into one:
12. ... Aeterna faccum sanctis tuis (fac cum is correct)

Two separate syllables pronounced as one:
13. ... Tu ad dexteram Dei sedes (De - i is normal)

One syllable pronounced as two separate syllables:
14. ... quos pretioso sanguine redemisti (qu - os is incorrect; in at least one place sanguini is misspelled)
15. ... quemadmodum speravimus in te (qu - em is incorrect)

Many of these were wrong in the 1960s–era vocal score; all of them (except 13, which isn't easily soluble) were corrected for the new vocal scores which the HBS Scores Subcommittee prepared for the Brisbane Gothic (for which none of my submission ended up being required; but my name did make it to the list of contributors).

To return to the subject of pronunciation: a typical word that demonstrates the differences is the word "magnam", which occurs frequently (in one of the main phrases of the Gloria of the mass, "gratias agimus tibi, propter magnam gloriam tuam"). In Italianate Latin, the letters GN form a single phoneme as in the Italian word gnocchi; in most other regional dialects, the G is a hard G and a separate phoneme from the N. This sometimes results in the word being hyphenated by the phoneme rather than the obvious syllable division: Mozart always hyphenates the word as mag-nam; well-meaning editors frequently change this to ma-gnam.

Brian's hyphenation doesn't give many clues, but one is that Dignare seems to demand a hard G, since Brian didn't follow the Italianate style which would have Di-gna-re: he hyphenated it as Dig-na-re.

Lastly, Brian was also quite reticent to use the children's choir after giving it quite an amount to do at the start of movement 4: they do not appear in movement 5, and only 12 and a bit bars in movement 6 — in Brisbane I conducted the children for this brief section from the midst of the adult choir, since they had trouble keeping in time with John C. It seems rather a pity they don't get a chance to shine any later in the piece, either at the climax of the "Et laudamus" section, or at the two two great outbursts of "Non confundar". If circumstances surrounding the 1966 performance had been different, there might have been an opportunity to introduce a performing tradition, as happened with the horn chord for the final chord of Part I/first chord of Part II. It was relatively easy for Sir Adrian Boult to ask one of his horn players to play an E instead of the written F sharp (to which Bob Simpson attested it meeting Brian's approval); traditionally, children's choirs more heavily utilise rote-learning and memorisation than adult choirs do, so it was far less practical for Boult to ask the children to add their voice to other sections of the Gothic which they would not have ever rehearsed. We must presume Brian left no indications that the children should double the soprano or alto voices of the adult choirs colla parte.

P.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 09, 2011, 11:35:37 PM
Many thanks for that very enlightening post, Philip!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on October 10, 2011, 02:35:36 PM
Indeed, thank you, Philip!

-
I told my parents the 'Gothic' CD comes out in December and my mother said, "Well, that's an idea for your Christmas gift!"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on October 10, 2011, 03:51:51 PM
Thanks guys.

Executive summary of the preceding wall of text: Hyperion are only provisionally correct to alter the text, provided the pronunciation remains Italianate (where there is no phonetic differentiation between I and J). It might be their house style.

Brian perhaps should have thought of something else for the children to do towards the end of the Te ergo. But he didn't, and it's probably far too late to start a tradition now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on October 11, 2011, 09:56:54 AM
Yes, Philip, very informative post! Re this

Quote from: Philip Legge on October 10, 2011, 03:51:51 PM
Brian perhaps should have thought of something else for the children to do towards the end of the Te ergo. But he didn't, and it's probably far too late to start a tradition now.

In a way, he rather did - or rather, he showed by some of his writing for the adult choirs that all he wanted at some points was unison singing, and that 'something else' for the children is unnecessary. (I'm thinking of some passages leading up to that immense page 245 of the Cranz). At these points the score seems to me to be shouting out 'everyone available, belt this line out as loud as you can in unison!' and who knows, maybe he simply forgot to include the children in this. But of course, in the end our dratted sense of responsibility means we have to say, 'we can't be sure, so we shouldn't.'  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on October 12, 2011, 06:45:29 PM
Luke, I agree: such places as seem clearly intended to possibly throw the children into the mix are the unison figure between figures 351 and 352 (split over pages 227/28); and mostly unison writing from figure 384 up to 388 (pages 243 to 245; only the last two bars present a problem of deciding how to dispose the line).

At the non confundars (page 255/figure 421, page 257/figure 427, page 259/figure 433) it becomes a real quandary as to which line(s) would be reinforced by the children. The second of these is a welter of uncompromising vocal lines comprising some brutal dissonance — as well as a plain chord of A minor that occurs in the middle of the progression and which seems incapable of being sung in tune by any of the choirs recorded thus far: Boult's, Schmidt's, Lenárd's, Curro's, or Brabbins' (all of them struggle to varying degrees).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 13, 2011, 02:51:40 AM
Quote from: Philip Legge on October 12, 2011, 06:45:29 PM
(...) a plain chord of A minor that occurs in the middle of the progression and which seems incapable of being sung in tune by any of the choirs recorded thus far: Boult's, Schmidt's, Lenárd's, Curro's, or Brabbins' (all of them struggle to varying degrees).


Which comes nearest, in your opinion?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 13, 2011, 04:14:07 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 13, 2011, 02:51:40 AM

Which comes nearest, in your opinion?

Choirs don't sing in tune. Full stop :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 13, 2011, 07:04:49 AM
I see Hyperion will be releasing the Gothic on the 28th November. A bit sooner than I expected (didn't someone say,December? Still,I'm not about to complain. Whether this release improves on my state of the art Dolby B cassettes of the live performance,remains to be seen! ;D
  The Artwork remains 'controversial',apparently. Maybe,Hyperion didn't have enough time? Personally,I don't care about the front,BUT.....it doesn't matter what John or I think;the problem is that there is no doubt that good cd artwork encourages sales,otherwise all cd covers would have similar sleeves. I mean,just think of the money record labels could save by not spending money on cd artwork? But the truth of the matter is that,while people like John,Johan,myself & Albion are not going to turn down a cd set of the Prom Gothic,on the basis of a plain black sleeve,there are less adventurous members of the listening public,browsing through Amazon or the shelves of music shops who might just be tempted by a really nice piece of artwork. The next minute they pick it up & they read that it's the biggest piece of music ever written,using hundreds of performers & it was performed at the Proms. They think,"Oh,this could be a change from Beethoven's ninth & Mahler's eighth (it's bigger?!!!). Next thing,another sale & who knows,maybe they'll want to try some thing else by this amazing composer?
  The fact is,it doesn't matter what WE think & whether WE'D still buy it,even if it was sold in a brown paper bag. A composer like Brian needs all the support he can get & good marketing helps!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on October 13, 2011, 07:08:02 AM
Re. the artwork, even if it had to be minimal I would prefer a blackletter font to the military supply crate one. This isn't M.A.S.H. ...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 13, 2011, 07:16:23 AM
I agree with cilgwyn and Sara - Brian is an unknown quantity AND these are visual times. Why not put an amazing picture of a cathedral on the front? They chose to make the word GOTHIC stand out in horror fashion and by so doing also omitted calling the work Symphony No. 1, 'Gothic'.

BUT - I am glad Hyperion will be issuing this, in spite of these niggles.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 13, 2011, 07:27:34 AM
Oh yes,don't get me wrong,Johan. I'd buy it if it even if it WAS sold in a brown paper bag (although not at THAT price),but I'm just thinking about people who enjoy good music,but aren't familiar with composers like Brian, eg browsing shelves in a good 'record shop' or wasting a bit of time on a mail order site. I'm not a complete idiot (I hope!),but I must admit that a really nice cd sleeve has been known to grab my attention.
On the other hand,maybe they'll think,"My god what's this peculiar black cd?",and pick it up!
Lovers of AC/DC's heavy metal magnum opus "Back in Black" could be in for a heck of a shock! :o
(They might even convert!!!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 13, 2011, 07:53:59 AM
Isn't putting 'AC/DC' "Heavy Metal" and  "magnum opus" distinctly oxymoronic?? ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 13, 2011, 08:27:34 AM
(http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/8351/319gdv5newlsl500aa300.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-10-13

The artwork for the forthcoming Hyperion release of the 2011 Prom Performance of Brian's Gothic Symphony.
"It ain't exactly pretty,it ain't exactly small!"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 13, 2011, 08:39:54 AM
(http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/176/hyperioncda679712.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-10-13

The 'Classic' Heavy Metal Album by AC/DC.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 13, 2011, 08:41:27 AM
I can see the similarity, though the Hyperion is a riot of colours in comparison.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 13, 2011, 08:51:52 AM
To be fair,they WERE 'Back in Black'! And white,actually,(the lettering) but let's not nit-pick! :D
I get the feeling Dundonnell's collection is short on Heavy metal! (I've got some in front of the back door!).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 13, 2011, 09:12:43 AM
Well, I don't have any heavy metal either... Motown, Sinatra, some jazz, The Beatles, yes. But classical music is what I love most.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 13, 2011, 10:07:44 AM
I HAVE listened to heavy metal in my explorations of music & I am aware of some of the classic older bands,but as I said,the only heavy metal I have,really,is in the form of doorstops! Led Zeppelin,in my opinion,are about as good as that sort of thing gets! And if you have ever seen any of their LP sleeves,in their original form.you will understand what I mean about album sleeves and 'record'/cd sales. Obviously,lovers of classical music,like to feel they are more sophisticated than the kind of people who drolled over Zeppelin sleeves or,on a less exalted level (?),the naked women on the cover of Jimi Hendrix's 'Electric Ladyland',but I think they do have some kind of influence on purchases.
Going back to bands. Most so called heavy metal is a bit too basic for me. Noise for the sake of noise,but in all fairness some of them were quite good musicians,in their own way,and 'classic' tracks like Deep Purple's 'Smoke on the Water' are allot better than the sort of stuff pumped out over the loud speakers of you're average UK pub. But again,please note,I DON'T have any Deep Purple Albums! :o Other bands,less noisy,that have interesting instrumentals,all tend to be old ones,ie The Doors (those keyboards,but Morrison's vocals could be a bit show offy!),The Velvet Underground,The Stranglers,Santana,Spirit,Blood,Sweat & Tears.so called Progressive Rock......but,they have to be reasonably good musicians,or have a good singer,like,say,Grace Slick (Jefferson Airplane)! I also like some 60's & 70's soul,especially female singers like Aretha Franklin,Gladys Knight & Millie Jackson although,I like Otis Redding & James Brown,but he had some very good bands. I also enjoy early blues singers like Bessie Smith & Robert Johnson,early jazz and some folk music. Early Bob Dylan & Simon & Garfunkel,are quite nice. Oh,and I also,remember braining my mum with Janis Joplin! And yes,Sinatra,in his prime,was pretty cool! But,like you,classical music has always been my main preoccupation.
Current pop music,is,with minor exceptions,way too commercial.

NB: I suppose I should have given an honourable mention to 'The Grateful Dead!
NB2: Is this off topic,or what? But then again.Havergal Brian liked the Beatles!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 13, 2011, 10:51:11 AM
We're very eclectic us Havergal Brian 'groupies'!
But shame on me,for not including the inimitable & dare I say it,extremely underrated,Blossom Dearie,in an extremely long and convoluted post. Dundonnell,& other exponents of paragraphs,please take note!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 13, 2011, 10:51:53 AM
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 13, 2011, 10:59:15 AM
I think your epic post, cilgwyn, has answered every question I might (or might not) ever have had concerning your musical tastes.


;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 13, 2011, 11:04:02 AM
I could indulge you with a longer post if you like,but I fear you might retaliate with a much shorter one! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 13, 2011, 11:09:12 AM
Have you downloaded the Daniel Jones Symphonies yet >:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 13, 2011, 02:46:40 PM
Erm,must admit I rather like it here at GMG! :o
Meanwhile,I'm hoping this Brian Vol 2 from Toccata is going to be released in November. I'm sure,someone,possibly (probably) Johan,mentioned a November release? This will suit my 'cd budget' after the big purchase of the Gothic,although,while Presto have a Nov 28th release date,for the Gothic,Hyperion have it scheduled for December. This is the kind of release I often buy from the actual label site,to try and encourage more of the same,and if I want to do this December would suit me better.
Hopefully,Toccata will have an exact release date,before long!
(Meanwhile the Dutton Bate cd,ordered via their site,should be popping through the letter box soon & good ol' Bessie Smith is singing the blues! ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on October 13, 2011, 04:04:26 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 13, 2011, 02:51:40 AM
Quote from: Philip Legge on October 12, 2011, 06:45:29 PM
(...) progression (...) which seems incapable of being sung in tune by any of the choirs recorded thus far: Boult's, Schmidt's, Lenárd's, Curro's, or Brabbins' (all of them struggle to varying degrees).
Which comes nearest, in your opinion?

Schmidt's is easily the worst, followed by Boult's. In the case of the Schmidt, the very first chord of E flat minor is already derailed by sopranos singing their G flat nearly a whole semitone sharp, which causes the pitch to stabilise higher. Boult's singers might have been in tune but the poor acoustics of the Royal Albert Hall contributes to the pitch constellation looking more like a cloudy nebula. Compare Boult with Curro and the occasional instances of wrong notes and harsh tuning in the latter stand out like a sore thumb, thanks to the highly-detailed clarity of the newer recording.

Brabbins and Lenárd are the best of the bunch, with Lenárd's largely professional Slovak choirs probably having the edge. Both of these exhibit the same problem magnified in the Boult, which is that choirs don't like the augmented triad chord which features several times in the progression, and the last two chords (with a diminished seventh added for extra nuisance value) are less than clearly defined in both.

Quote from: John Whitmore on October 13, 2011, 04:14:07 AM
Choirs don't sing in tune. Full stop :D

They often do a better job than you would think without "help" from instrumentalists. :P (Mind you, with this work there has yet to be a superlative orchestral or choral rendition.)

As for the CD cover with the bottle-green degraded Stencil typeface, maybe they're trying to make the bizarre connection with the US Air Force song "Off we go, into the wild blue yonder", which the clarinet march in the Te ergo vaguely resembles in a minor key? At any rate, it's a double anachronism: the Air Force song dates from 1939 and the Stencil typeface from 1938, and the Gothic predates both. Hyperion have their wars confused methinx.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 13, 2011, 05:30:10 PM
Many thanks, Philip! I'm going to compare the different versions, score in hand... As for that 'war look', you may be right. We can't be sure, though. Hyperion moves in mysterious ways...

Cilgwyn, I think Dundonnell is trying to make you understand there are riches to be found at Unsung Composers. If you join, you can add several radio broadcasts of Daniel Jones' music to your collection...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on October 14, 2011, 12:44:48 AM
Cilgwyn's point about Brian liking the Beatles reminds me of a remarkable coincidence regarding 'Ave atque Vale'. Completed in May 1968, 'Ave' is a strange little piece, which is usually documented as being inspired by Catullus although Brian wrote to Robert Simpson that it was abstract rather than programmatic. The remarkable coincidence is that over Christmas 1967/New Year 1968 just before 'Ave' was conceived and written, the Beatles were at Number One with 'Hello Goodbye'. As 'ave atque vale' could be translated into modern parlance as Hello Goodbye, is it fanciful to think that Brian could have been inspired by McCartney rather than Catullus?

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 14, 2011, 02:20:46 AM
Who knows?! It wouldn't have been the first time Brian would have been influenced by popular music!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on October 14, 2011, 03:11:16 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 13, 2011, 05:30:10 PMCilgwyn, I think Dundonnell is trying to make you understand there are riches to be found at Unsung Composers. If you join, you can add several radio broadcasts of Daniel Jones' music to your collection...

I think Cilgwyn's already been there and done that in a former life.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 14, 2011, 03:43:13 AM
Albion the Seer! Indeed,reincarnation is not only for the likes of the Dalai Lama! I remember a great and very learned Sage (the bloke in the post office,actually) who once told me,in a hoarse whisper,"Son,never go back!"
He also informed,very earnestly,that microwave ovens were every bit as dangerous as Chernobyl! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 14, 2011, 04:29:44 AM
Stone the crows,I've gone all abstract! (A bit of resizing,I think :o)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on October 14, 2011, 06:45:22 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 14, 2011, 04:29:44 AM
Stone the crows,I've gone all abstract! (A bit of resizing,I think :o)

Love the new avatar - who was the interim chap who popped up briefly after Daniel Jones?

???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 14, 2011, 08:30:08 AM
That's me actually! :o But hopefully,I'll look better after using this face cream! Actually,the second Avatar,as they call 'em,was Charles Tournemire. I thought he needed a 'leg up'. He got allot of cramp,sitting on that organ of his!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on October 14, 2011, 08:35:44 AM
I wonder if Havergal Brian ever composed a ballet, anybody know?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on October 14, 2011, 08:44:51 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 14, 2011, 08:35:44 AM
I wonder if Havergal Brian ever composed a ballet, anybody know?

No, not an independent ballet score - but you could include the ballet movements at the opening of Act III of The Tigers - Gargoyles and Lacryma (Tears of Sorrow).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on October 14, 2011, 08:46:00 AM
Quote from: Albion on October 14, 2011, 08:44:51 AM
No, not an independent ballet score - but you could include the ballet movements at the opening of Act III of The Tigers - Gargoyles and Lacryma (Tears of Sorrow).

Interesting, thanks for the feedback.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 14, 2011, 08:57:29 AM
And come to think of it,why not? A nice change from 'The Nutrocker',I mean,'Nutcracker!' Or what about a ballet using the 'Sinfonia Tragica'? I'm sure someone suitably imaginative could create a wonderful ballet around that truly magical score. It can be done. Unfortunately,I'm not a choreographer,though.
Havergal Brian the ballet composer? I like it! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 19, 2011, 09:20:37 AM
Can I be reminded please:

What exactly are the problems with the Boult performance of 1966?

I have just listened to it again. I found it a most moving experience....particularly when I recalled that Boult himself was 77 years old at the time. For a man of that considerable age to marshal the immense forces
required for the Gothic and give the first professional performance was an amazing achievement. I am beginning to wonder if we are forgetting how much is owed to that great conductor!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on October 19, 2011, 09:35:26 AM
Boult was considered one of the greatest orchestral accompanists of the age too, second to none. His name shows up surprisingly often in biographies of musicians and the like - he comes across as the kind of no-fuss figure who will be forgotten by most, but with that being the loss of the ones who ignore.

I do wish he recorded more Brian. He did apparently perform the 8th a couple of times.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 20, 2011, 04:24:10 AM
The Boult sounds pretty good,to me! It's easy to criticise. (Except for that 'flat' sounding note at the climax of the second 'interlude' in the judex! :o  ).The Schmidt has always been a favourite,because it was the one I heard first & grew up with & I,personally,still think it sounds marvellous. I hope it makes it to cd,one day!
Meanwhile heres to the Hyperion release of the marvellous Prom. Who'd have ever thought! (Any hope for a cd of the Brisbane,still?)
(Listening to the marvellous new Dutton cd of the Bate & Reizenstein. Exciting. Off topic,I know,but there's SO MUCH music out there!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on October 20, 2011, 01:52:34 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 20, 2011, 04:24:10 AM
(Listening to the marvellous new Dutton cd of the Bate & Reizenstein. Exciting. Off topic,I know,but there's SO MUCH music out there!)

Thanks for mentioning this new release! Bate's third and fourth symphonies have been revelations, as is hiw viola concerto on another Dutton cd. For me, he's the biggest discovery in years, even more so than e.g. Arnell.

(Completely OOT, I know. Back to Brian  8))
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on October 20, 2011, 03:23:38 PM
Boult's performance of the Gothic is a great exploratory reading of the work; he may not have been present at Fairfax's world première five years earlier, whereas any conductor coming to the work now will have many previous interpretations to consider. For that reason alone the Boult version is a great acheivement, but it is by no means without flaws and weaknesses. First of all, Boult has a very good overall grasp of the structure of the work but occasionally he did choose tempi that don't work, or seem to go directly against Brian's descriptions.

Particularly where the choral music is concerned, we have the fastest reading on record, and the tempi chosen for the a cappella passages are at times frankly unbelievable; I am almost convinced Boult was concerned that the difficulty of some of the a cappella music might lead to either (a) unrecoverable flatness, like the Proms choirs sinking an entire semitone in 12 bars, or (b) complete train wreck, requiring a stop and an arbitrary re-start; and that as a result of these fears, he chose some tempi purely to get through the difficult passages as quickly as possible, without a view to their musical weight or emphasis.

To speak of myself, in the last 20 years that I've known the Gothic, for 18 of those years I only had access to one recording: Lenárd's. (The HBS has a CD loaning system to share recordings between its members, but Australia is too far away to be regularly posting CDs back and forth.) Lenárd's reading is something of a polar opposite to Boult's – if Boult has a slow tempo, you can almost guarantee Lenárd will be fast (and likewise Boult : fast :: Lenárd : slow). So although this would imply I prefer slow speeds for the choral sections, this is only provisional because non-ridiculous speeds can make music out of them. Temperamentally I tend to be in favour fast tempi but not at the cost of losing impact or the ability to "milk" a passage for its full worth.

The orchestral playing by Boult's heavily augmented BBC orchestra is highly good for its day, though I think it fails to display the magic of the superlative LSO under Schmidt fourteen years afterwards, and the recording quality is likewise good for 45 years ago: both recordings made in the last year easily surpass it on technical grounds judged by the work of the recording engineers or the standard of the orchestral playing.

Cligwyn: the last I heard, a CD of Brisbane is still strongly desired by the 4MBS team, but the knowledge that the Proms would quickly follow after the Queensland performance, and an equally speedy release by Hyperion cannot be said to have helped matters at all. In addition, the rights holders have at every turn attempted to milk as much revenue from their property as possible and a CD involves more demands for revenue to clear release. For such reasons I suspect a commercial release will not be viable, and a limited performers-only release a doubtful fallback from that.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 20, 2011, 06:35:43 PM
Thank you very much, Philip, for that considered and most helpful response :)

I fully appreciate the points that you make. It is certainly more than possible that Boult was indeed motivated by the concerns you mention. Had the piece ground to a horrid standstill it would have done HB and
his cause grievous harm.

Sadly I did not attend the Boult Proms performance although my late father had that pleasure :)

What I do still have though is the letter written to me later that same night by Malcolm MacDonald. Malcolm travelled from Cambridge to be present. He got back to Downing College late at night but in the
white heat of excitement and enthusiasm sat down to write me a very lengthy review of the performance with his impressions both of the music and of Boult's interpretation. The letter still makes quite
fascinating reading :)

There is something though about the 1966 reading which never fails to affect me. Perhaps it is the fact that it was the first professional performance, perhaps the fact that HB himself was in the audience.
There is that extra frisson. I know that I shall always feel that sense of a bold and brave journey into the music ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 21, 2011, 12:28:08 AM
Thanks for all the reactions to Colin's Boult post. I have been very busy (still am), that's the reason I've been so silent.

Philip's contribution especially is another sterling one and I agree with him from a strictly musical viewpoint. But - I am with Colin, too. I have known the Boult performance for almost 30 years, to me it WAS 'The Gothic' for a very long time and when Lenard's recording came around, it wasn't able to replace or topple Boult. With the Boult performance I always get a feeling of awe when I am nearing the end, the sense of having arrived in one of the highest and loneliest places of the mind, which no other performance has ever been able to reproduce for me, though Brabbins came close last July. His 'In te, Domine, speravi' is miraculous. Now there are 5 performances and there is much to compare. Boult will always be special, he is 'hors concours' as far as I am concerned. Still, if I want to have excitement and drive, Curro is my choice; if I want to have a cool head and a firm grasp, Brabbins is my man.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 21, 2011, 02:33:05 AM
Thank you for your response to my post,Johan. It's disappointing 'news' about the Brisbane performance,but,with the current economic climate,it's understandable,I suppose & the Prom performance did rather steal their thunder. Still.in this day & age we do have the luxury of downloads and making our own cds of the occassion.
There certainly is 'something',a special excitement,to a premiere performance,especially one attended by the composer. I love it myself. There's also something special about the first performance you ever heard,particularly when you were young,which is why the Schmidt will always have a place close to my heart. The one I DON'T like is the Lenard,although it will always have a special place in the Brian discography. Mind you,those choirs do sound good!
(Off topic,but I've still got that Bate/Reizenstein Dutton cd on 'Repeat all'. Can't get enough of it. I hope it's arrived at a certain address in Perth!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 21, 2011, 02:40:32 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 21, 2011, 12:28:08 AM
Thanks for all the reactions to Colin's Boult post. I have been very busy (still am), that's the reason I've been so silent.

Philip's contribution especially is another sterling one and I agree with him from a strictly musical viewpoint. But - I am with Colin, too. I have known the Boult performance for almost 30 years, to me it WAS 'The Gothic' for a very long time and when Lenard's recording came around, it wasn't able to replace or topple Boult. With the Boult performance I always get a feeling of awe when I am nearing the end, the sense of having arrived in one of the highest and loneliest places of the mind, which no other performance has ever been able to reproduce for me, though Brabbins came close last July. His 'In te, Domine, speravi' is miraculous. Now there are 5 performances and there is much to compare. Boult will always be special, he is 'hors concours' as far as I am concerned. Still, if I want to have excitement and drive, Curro is my choice; if I want to have a cool head and a firm grasp, Brabbins is my man.
It's interesting that all of a sudden there is a range of Gothics to choose from all with variable sound and styles of interpretation. Who would have thought this in the pre Lenard days? Just to put my two 'appeth on the table:
1) Schmidt's LSO and Whittaker on xylo take some beating from an orchestral perspective. Best orchestral playing by a mile.
2) Boult is the only truly world class conductor in the list. A fabulous musician with his three foot long stick and miniscule movements. He brings to the Gothic the same sort of elegance and beauty that can be found in his Brahms and Elgar. The BBC orchestra come a very close 2nd to the LSO.
3) Brabbins. This also has good playing to commend it and I sense something very special is taking place. I also like the RAH sound funnily enough and some passages have tremendous bite e.g. the contra bassoon and basses.
4) Lenard. Hats off to him despite some of the criticism. His Marco Polo recording and the LSSO 10th started the Brian ball rolling for many people. This should not be forgotten. I personally don't like the studio acoustic much and the playing is good to average.
5) Brisbane. This is a strange one. As an overall interpretation it's top of my own list. In terms of orchestral playing it comes bottom of the pile - many ragged passages and numerous fluffs. BUT.....there is a sense of occasion about it and I really enjoy listening to it. It communicates and that's the most important thing. Again, hats off to them for staging the monster. Did they pull it off? Definitely yes.
In truth, most people who aren't "into" Brian would get pleasure from all of these recordings. That's a pretty healthy position for the Gothic to be in. Just to go off topic, here's a recording that came through the mail only last week. I doubt if any of you have heard it but then again you are such a well educated mob I might be totally wrong :D
http://youtu.be/mK9FCZkNaPw
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 21, 2011, 03:30:17 AM
I tend to agree with every point made in your 'two 'appeth'!!! ;D
That wierd boxy acoustic in the Lenard really is one of the main problems I have with the performance. Allot of those Marco Polo recordings seemed to suffer from it. But Lenard's recording certainly does have it's place in Brian history. No doubt of that,even if it won't make many,if any,return visits to my cd player! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 21, 2011, 03:57:33 AM
Quote from: Christo on October 20, 2011, 01:52:34 PM
Thanks for mentioning this new release! Bate's third and fourth symphonies have been revelations, as is hiw viola concerto on another Dutton cd. For me, he's the biggest discovery in years, even more so than e.g. Arnell.

(Completely OOT, I know. Back to Brian  8))

For me too, along with Arnell and JBS.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 21, 2011, 04:20:03 AM
Very interesting and illuminating responses :)

Thanks for these :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: thranx on October 23, 2011, 04:03:58 PM
Swell to see Tournemire mentioned here.  Would love to hear one of his symphonies (esp. of course the 6th) live. 
Here's the original AC/DC video for the song WHO MADE WHO?  Orchestrate, starting with cellos & woodwinds for the bass, violins for Angus' guitar, horns for drums.  As it progresses, bring up trombones in counterpoint, aggitato strings for the lead guitar, move to....
Aw, heck...it's a nice piece of music. 
Great to see Arnell all over the place.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: thranx on October 23, 2011, 04:04:58 PM
Whups...here's the Frankensteinian ac/dc video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cebvDMkk4c
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2011, 01:20:27 AM
Here is a fragment from 'The Curse of The Gothic', featuring our own Philip, and Malcolm MacDonald, John Grimshaw, conductor John Curro in sparklingly sarcastic form, and others....


http://vimeo.com/28746424 (http://vimeo.com/28746424)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 25, 2011, 04:21:01 AM
Oh,good! Have to say,the flow from the previous 'Frankensteinian' post  :o to a 'Curse' does seem peculiarly appropriate!
Is this going to be released on dvd,at all? Or is it just for network tv? My multi region dvd player could handle an australian dvd! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2011, 04:25:36 AM
Well, cilgwyn, the film had its premiere at the Melbourne Film Festival recently, and I think there are plans to issue it on DVD. I sure hope I'll be able to watch it! Fortunately, several people on Facebook (among them MM himself) have been asking this same question, too. Philip should know more (I hope!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 25, 2011, 05:10:36 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2011, 01:20:27 AM
Here is a fragment from 'The Curse of The Gothic', featuring our own Philip, and Malcolm MacDonald, John Grimshaw, conductor John Curro in sparklingly sarcastic form, and others....


http://vimeo.com/28746424 (http://vimeo.com/28746424)
Well there's a surprise. A choir unable to count or follow a conductor ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 25, 2011, 05:16:49 AM
I think the 'legendary' 70s documentary 'The Unknown Warrior' would make a rather nice dvd release,one day. Unlikely,at the moment,I suppose,but allot of things have been released on dvd,in recent years,which I never thought would be treated to a commercial release. It also IS quite a celebrated documentary in it's own way. I'm sure some people would buy it & some companies do seem to be moving towards this kind of archive material. The man who wrote 'The Gothic',in person,too! Maybe add,one or two 'special features' & preferably digitally remastered.
Of course,it IS on Youtube,but just a thought. :)

But,maybe I'm just a dreamer!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2011, 05:42:58 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 25, 2011, 05:10:36 AM
Well there's a surprise. A choir unable to count or follow a conductor

I gather it was their first rehearsal with all the forces (Philip will know). The choir improved tremendously in the days that followed, judging by the final result.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 25, 2011, 06:02:59 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2011, 05:42:58 AM


I gather it was their first rehearsal with all the forces (Philip will know). The choir improved tremendously in the days that followed, judging by the final result.
They certainly did improve and the final result was very good. I'm just being my sarcastic self ;) As they say in the trade there are musicians and there are singers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2011, 06:06:54 AM
Haha! That reminds me of a saying by my piano and singing teacher, who had worked at Dutch Opera and knew the likes of Josef Krips - ' dumb, dumber, tenor'...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on October 25, 2011, 07:29:06 AM
...and another one: what do you call someone who hangs around with a group of musicians? A percussionist. (speaking as an orchestral precussionist!)

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 25, 2011, 11:42:57 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on October 25, 2011, 07:29:06 AM
...and another one: what do you call someone who hangs around with a group of musicians? A percussionist. (speaking as an orchestral precussionist!)

;D
This has opened a whole can of worms. I can feel a load of viola jokes coming on........
What's the definition of a minor second?
Two violists playing in unison.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on October 26, 2011, 01:36:52 PM
The foregoing sarcasm is noted. Most of the footage of John Curro doing his nut were pieced together from the earlier rehearsals at the Old Museum Building, and obviously not all of the reactions stem from rehearsing the one particular phrase – but the ones that were problems were rehearsed at length and provided a wealth of footage. The syncopations for the women of choir I at the very opening of the Te Deum were always challenging for the amateurs (and I stress, amateurs) amongst the choir.

The orchestra and chorus had three days of solid rehearsal there on Friday 17, Saturday 18, and Sunday 19, and most of the filming seems to be from the Friday and a bit from Saturday. On the Friday, John Grimshaw and Malcolm MacDonald were in attendance from fairly early on and John Curro was already testy owing to the absence of the bass soloist (who had been signed up only a few weeks previously to replace another singer who had pulled out; as a result he was double-booked for Friday and Sunday). Being a work day, half of the Brisbane contingent hadn't taken leave and so the attendance was very lacklustre. To add to these woes, the children were supposed to be present for the afternoon rehearsal and again maybe only half of them were there, and John was playing the role of big scary man with élan. (I'm fairly sure this is where the "Gothic boogie man" phrase was uttered.)

I've just heard that the next outing for the doco is in Brisbane for the Film Festival there, on 4 November. I imagine a screening on ABC TV will also happen at some point before it makes its way to DVD.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 26, 2011, 01:46:30 PM
Thanks for all the background information, Philip. I can't wait for the DVD!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on October 26, 2011, 02:14:12 PM
I've just watched the snippet, and most of it is from Friday, both morning (no children present) and afternoon (some children), with some judicious inter-cutting from Saturday to allow "alternate views" of people. This is quite noticeable if you concentrate on people's attire!

By the end of the Friday morning I'd been promoted to the front row of the chorus (in most of the "Tu rex" footage I'm not visible). On the Friday I was wearing my brown Gothic T-shirt (on the back there's a mocked-up road sign bearing the legend "Warning: Choristers Ahead!" with two alternate routes marked: "via G: 2351 bars expressway" and "via O: 4098 bars scenic route". This was designed for the aborted 2007 attempt at staging the Gothic; we ended up taking the scenic route consisting of the Australian première of Carl Orff's Trionfi – all three cantatas.) However, they didn't obviously have a close-up of me that matched the rest of the footage, so they used a snippet from the Saturday where I was wearing my yellow and red Goodies T-shirt (and my avatar shows you how I was dressed on the Sunday).

The main passages of music that are being cut between are very widely separated in time: the "non confundar", "Tu rex gloriæ" from late in the fourth movement, and the very opening of the Te Deum (for example, when John refers to figure 5).

Sarah Curro's comments about her dad's rantings in rehearsal marvellously caps off this snippet. Thanks for finding it JZ!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 26, 2011, 02:18:00 PM
Quote from: Philip Legge on October 26, 2011, 02:14:12 PM
On the Friday I was wearing my brown Gothic T-shirt (on the back there's a mocked-up road sign bearing the legend "Warning: Choristers Ahead!" with two alternate routes marked: "via G: 2351 bars expressway" and "via O: 4098 bars scenic route".


;D

QuoteThe main passages of music that are being cut between are very widely separated in time: the "non confundar", "Tu rex gloriæ" from late in the fourth movement, and the very opening of the Te Deum (for example, when John refers to figure 5).


Yes, I noticed that, too.

QuoteSarah Curro's comments about her dad's rantings in rehearsal marvellously caps off this snippet. Thanks for finding it JZ!


Alison put it on Facebook. That's where I found it. You might take a look, it elicited a few interesting reactions...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 27, 2011, 02:43:28 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 27, 2011, 01:29:18 AM
Brianites may care to know that I have uploaded recordings of HB's

Symphony No.3 in the first performance by the New Philharmonia Orchestra under Stanley Pope with David Wilde and Ronald Stevenson(pianos)

http://www.mediafire.com/?vwgvoygc6auyd3h

http://www.mediafire.com/?kt1253vbddbobkg

Symphony No.20 in the first performance by the New Philharmonia Orchestra under Vernon Handley

http://www.mediafire.com/?94x1je4qbbd1dux

Violin Concerto with Ralph Holmes and the New Philharmonia under Stanley Pope

http://www.mediafire.com/?esh8fhbokfjw9s7

Opera "Agamemnon" with extended introduction by Malcolm MacDonald in the performance by the BBC Northern Symphony Orchestra conducted by Richard Armstrong with
William McAlpine, ten (Agamemnon); Milla Andrew, sop (Clytemnestra); Ann Howard, mezzo (Cassandra); John Dobson, ten (Watchman); Michael Rippon, bass (Herald); Dennis Wicks, bass (Old Man)
and the BBC Northern SO/ Richard Armstrong

http://www.mediafire.com/?rpcg533rrr98d9e


These links were made available on another site and will remain here for a very limited period.
Many thanks. I'll take a listen to Holmes. Cracking player.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on October 27, 2011, 03:33:46 AM
Wonderful! Thanks! (And - it makes me happy, anyway - the added bonus of hearing Ronald Stevenson again.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on October 27, 2011, 04:36:29 AM

Quote from: Dundonnell on October 27, 2011, 01:29:18 AM
Brianites may care to know that I have uploaded recordings of HB's

Symphony No.3 in the first performance by the New Philharmonia Orchestra under Stanley Pope with David Wilde and Ronald Stevenson(pianos)

http://www.mediafire.com/?vwgvoygc6auyd3h

http://www.mediafire.com/?kt1253vbddbobkg

Symphony No.20 in the first performance by the New Philharmonia Orchestra under Vernon Handley

http://www.mediafire.com/?94x1je4qbbd1dux

Violin Concerto with Ralph Holmes and the New Philharmonia under Stanley Pope

http://www.mediafire.com/?esh8fhbokfjw9s7

Opera "Agamemnon" with extended introduction by Malcolm MacDonald in the performance by the BBC Northern Symphony Orchestra conducted by Richard Armstrong with
William McAlpine, ten (Agamemnon); Milla Andrew, sop (Clytemnestra); Ann Howard, mezzo (Cassandra); John Dobson, ten (Watchman); Michael Rippon, bass (Herald); Dennis Wicks, bass (Old Man)
and the BBC Northern SO/ Richard Armstrong

http://www.mediafire.com/?rpcg533rrr98d9e


These links were made available on another site and will remain here for a very limited period.


Thanks very much for all the brilliant work you are doing both here and on the other board.

I remember first hearing Agamemnon and it was that, that put me off Brian for a while. Re-hearing it now, with advanced (')ears, is interesting to say the least; I mean it makes sense now.........

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 27, 2011, 08:45:46 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on October 27, 2011, 04:36:29 AMI remember first hearing Agamemnon and it was that, that put me off Brian for a while. Re-hearing it now, with advanced (')ears, is interesting to say the least; I mean it makes sense now.........

Agamemnon is hardly Brian at his loveliest. His writing for the human voice is even less belcanto-like than Wagner's, but it has the advantage of throwing the words into sharp relief. There are some very powerful things here, especially the final three minutes, with Brian at his most grand and granitic.


Many thanks to Colin!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 27, 2011, 08:56:29 AM
The Ralph Holmes performance at last.
Thank you Dundonell. I do have the Holmes on a C90,as they were called,before the 'D' came in,(what kind of b**** commitee meeting led to that?) but the final 3 minutes or so were accidentally taped over by horrible pop music. How,I don't know. But,it wasn't The Doors or Janis Joplin,put it that way! :o
The Stanley Pope,is another performance,I once had! This is the one without the cramped acoustic. Can't wait to hear this again,as it's my favourite Brian symphony! Move over the Gothic,THIS is the most intriguing Brian symphony!!!(Testament take note!) Maybe someone should start a Dundonnell Society?
I'll Naxos that Naxos!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 27, 2011, 09:01:11 AM
Yes, it's great to hear these performances again (VC and Third)!


The performance of No. 20 by Handley, new to me, doesn't differ much from the reading on the Marco Polo/Naxos label, as far as I can hear.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 27, 2011, 09:14:53 AM
I had the Agamemnon performance off someone on cassette,years ago. The sound quality was absolutely terrible (muffled,distant.Yet all the other Brian recordings I got from my 'source' were excellent,Except for the 'Concerto for Orchestra)). Strictly for Brian buffs!I hope you're cassette copy wasn't THAT bad!)
I'd love to hear those 'granite' sounds in todays digital recording technology!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 27, 2011, 09:48:41 AM
I'm amazed if you didn't have the Holmes VC or Poe 3rd,Johan? I always assumed you'd have them stashed away in you're vast Brian archive!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 27, 2011, 09:50:17 AM
No, I had them! On cassette.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 27, 2011, 09:57:58 AM
Ah yes,the cassette,who'd have thought!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 27, 2011, 10:14:16 AM
A 'nerdy' question,I suppose,because I still quite like & DO use cassettes,to some degree. Do you still possess any of you're original 'off air' cassettes of Brian's music,or did you throw them all away?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 27, 2011, 10:31:47 AM
I still have them all. They were sent to me by fellow members of the HBS during the late 'eighties. Quality is very variable...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 27, 2011, 11:16:23 AM
Unfortunately,I always seemed to have lousy cassette recorders that kept chewing them up. I still have a few. The Poole Das Siegeslied is one of them. Once,I've cleared out some more stuff I hope one or two more will turn up.
These days I have a nice dedicated dolby cassette deck,which I bought a few months ago. There are,currently,less than half a dozen in production & no Nakamichi's,unfortunately! (Apparently,cassette sales have unexpectedly risen,so there's some hope for stone agers like me!) All those years I wanted a deck like this & as soon as I get one cassettes are history. Funny how things work out!
I'm glad all yours are intact!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 28, 2011, 12:49:04 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 27, 2011, 11:16:23 AM
Unfortunately,I always seemed to have lousy cassette recorders that kept chewing them up. I still have a few. The Poole Das Siegeslied is one of them. Once,I've cleared out some more stuff I hope one or two more will turn up.
These days I have a nice dedicated dolby cassette deck,which I bought a few months ago. There are,currently,less than half a dozen in production & no Nakamichi's,unfortunately! (Apparently,cassette sales have unexpectedly risen,so there's some hope for stone agers like me!) All those years I wanted a deck like this & as soon as I get one cassettes are history. Funny how things work out!
I'm glad all yours are intact!
Nakamichi. I've got one of those. 20 years old but still works OK and I still use it to transfer old cassettes as and when people send them to me (mainly LSSO stuff). I never got into cassettes. Access to individual tracks was a nightmare and the sound quality was never anywhere near as good as high quality vinyl. Either the tapes hissed like demented snakes or Dolby took away all the top end sparkle. Clicks and pops or tape hiss - the choice is yours!! The good old days, eh? Nice to have the old Nakamichi around though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 28, 2011, 01:56:22 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 27, 2011, 01:29:18 AM
Brianites may care to know that I have uploaded recordings of HB's....

Thanks, Colin. Much appreciated.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 28, 2011, 03:47:46 AM
Yeah,the good ol' days. I remember sitting there listening to my grandfather going on about the music hall & magic lanterns. Now it's me going on about cassettes and busy village pubs! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on October 28, 2011, 03:59:46 AM
What a time to be away from home for a week: Agamemnon, Pope's Altarus and Holmes' fiddle concertising all up for consideration. Alas, I won't be able to respond to these until November, if they last that long...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2011, 04:01:49 AM
Quote from: Philip Legge on October 28, 2011, 03:59:46 AM
What a time to be away from home for a week: Agamemnon, Pope's Altarus and Holmes' fiddle concertising all up for consideration. Alas, I won't be able to respond to these until November, if they last that long...


Don't worry, Philip. There is that other place, Unsung Composers, where they remain. And there are always fellow Brianites...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 28, 2011, 04:10:58 AM
Can't wait to transfer that Pope 3rd to cd. (I won't be transferring it to cassette,despite my enthusiasm for the medium). Incidentally,my first copy of the Hyperion 3rd was the audio cassette version. I seem to remember the 'Allegro Vivace' made a very nice opener after the arduous task of removing the cassette and turning it over!
Talk about the seven labours of Hercules!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 28, 2011, 04:29:11 AM
Quote from: Philip Legge on October 28, 2011, 03:59:46 AM
What a time to be away from home for a week: Agamemnon, Pope's Altarus and Holmes' fiddle concertising all up for consideration. Alas, I won't be able to respond to these until November, if they last that long...

I have copied the links and sent them to you in a pm....so they will remain in your Message Box ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2011, 04:32:39 AM
And it isn't even Christmas.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 28, 2011, 07:49:40 AM
It is judging by the shelves in Marks and Spencers & Hyperions upcoming release!
Havergal Brians third next PLEASE!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 28, 2011, 07:51:17 AM
And this time in a room you can swing a cat in!
The Hyperion recording 'feels' a bit like that cramped electrical recording Holst made of 'The Planets'. Although,the sonics are thankfully allot better. It needs more 'room'.
But it could have been worse,it could have been Marco Polo! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dax on October 28, 2011, 11:34:50 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 27, 2011, 01:29:18 AM
Symphony No.3 in the first performance by the New Philharmonia Orchestra under Stanley Pope with David Wilde and Ronald Stevenson(pianos)
Very many thanks for that one. I turned pages for Stevenson on that recording . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2011, 11:36:33 AM
Quote from: Dax on October 28, 2011, 11:34:50 AM
Very many thanks for that one. I turned pages for Stevenson on that recording . . .


:o :o :o :o :o :o :o


Tell us more!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 28, 2011, 12:24:10 PM
I am now finding out that these recordings were transferred to mp3 format at too low a level and will need to be re-done with more amplification :(

Stand by for new copies :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2011, 12:31:39 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 28, 2011, 12:24:10 PM
I am now finding out that these recordings were transferred to mp3 format at too low a level and will need to be re-done with more amplification :(

Stand by for new copies :o


I applaud the fact you are willing to get the hang of it. Many thanks in advance!  :)  The VC sounds okay to me, though...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 28, 2011, 12:38:44 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2011, 12:31:39 PM

I applaud the fact you are willing to get the hang of it. Many thanks in advance!  :)  The VC sounds okay to me, though...

I am certainly anxious to get it as near "right" as I can and will do whatever it takes to secure that end......you can probably imagine the state of my temper though >:( ;D :o :-X :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2011, 12:43:06 PM
I know your temper and I know your impatience... But take your time, there's no rush. Those tapes of yours have been lying there for decades, what's a few days more?! We can wait.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 28, 2011, 12:57:29 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2011, 12:43:06 PM
I know your temper and I know your impatience... But take your time, there's no rush. Those tapes of yours have been lying there for decades, what's a few days more?! We can wait.

:) :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 28, 2011, 01:55:19 PM
One of the most original and absorbing British symphonies ever written. If I had a recording company I'd be jumping through hoops to record it. Well,okay climbing through them at my age,but you get the drift?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2011, 02:19:49 PM
That Third Symphony certainly is a very colourful creation. It has a very potent atmosphere. I remember being quite obsessed by it when I got to know it (must have been around 1987).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 28, 2011, 02:48:04 PM
Once you start listening to it,it's hard to stop. It's so intricately scored. The way those piano's weave in and out of the textures,like a huge piano concerto slipping in and out of (ear!) sight. I can't think of anything else by any other British composer,written at the time,that is anything like it. Like the 'Gothic' it stands out on it's own. For a British composer of the period it sounds pretty daring in some ways. Although,I suppose,Brian wasn't consciously trying to be progressive,it just came out that way. Also,it was intended to be a Piano Concerto,wasn't it? So,the piano parts,as you know, just got reworked and left in. Okay,it's not exactly a British answer to the (later) 'Turangalila',but for a British symphony of it's period it still seems astonishing and,in it's own way,a little ahead of it's time. It really should be better known. It would be marvellous if Duttons and Brabbins could get around to doing it (Not sure about Chandos,even if they were interested,Dutton's recordings are,perhaps sonically,less spectacular,but they have greater clarity).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 28, 2011, 03:59:37 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 28, 2011, 12:24:10 PM
I am now finding out that these recordings were transferred to mp3 format at too low a level and will need to be re-done with more amplification :(

Stand by for new copies :o
Yes please and can you save them as 256 or 320 kbps?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 28, 2011, 04:02:57 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 28, 2011, 02:48:04 PM
Once you start listening to it,it's hard to stop. It's so intricately scored. The way those piano's weave in and out of the textures,like a huge piano concerto slipping in and out of (ear!) sight. I can't think of anything else by any other British composer,written at the time,that is anything like it. Like the 'Gothic' it stands out on it's own. For a British composer of the period it sounds pretty daring in some ways. Although,I suppose,Brian wasn't consciously trying to be progressive,it just came out that way. Also,it was intended to be a Piano Concerto,wasn't it? So,the piano parts,as you know, just got reworked and left in. Okay,it's not exactly a British answer to the (later) 'Turangalila',but for a British symphony of it's period it still seems astonishing and,in it's own way,a little ahead of it's time. It really should be better known. It would be marvellous if Duttons and Brabbins could get around to doing it (Not sure about Chandos,even if they were interested,Dutton's recordings are,perhaps sonically,less spectacular,but they have greater clarity).
I prefer Brian 3 to the Turangalila any day. The latter is vastly overrated in my very humble opinion.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 28, 2011, 04:16:03 PM
The new links to the Brian uploads are:

Symphony No.3(New Philharmonia/Stanley Pope with David Wilde and Ronald Stevenson, pianos))

(Part 1):

http://www.mediafire.com/?zx49mr95j5kncs2

(Part 2):

http://www.mediafire.com/?6z7cm2rsbejou6x

Symphony No.20(New Philharmonia/Vernon Handley):

http://www.mediafire.com/?mlhl8yas4ej1818

Violin Concerto(Ralph Holmes/New Philharmonia/Stanley Pope):

http://www.mediafire.com/?a8ywe6adecau2ot

Opera "Agamemnon"(William McAlpine, ten (Agamemnon); Milla Andrew, sop (Clytemnestra); Ann Howard, mezzo (Cassandra); John Dobson, ten (Watchman); Michael Rippon, bass (Herald); Dennis Wicks, bass
           (Old Man)/ BBC Northern Singers/ BBC Northern SO/ Richard Armstrong)

http://www.mediafire.com/?1vwtnhihx7ibi9j
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 28, 2011, 05:08:47 PM
May I just add something about these Brian downloads?

The original recordings were made in mono in the mid-1970s on a smallish reel-to-reel tape recorder. Many of my recordings at that time were made during the day whilst I was at work. I could not therefore
monitor the recording; it was very much a case of 'press start and go away' to attend to my principal and over-riding responsibility of teaching my pupils.

I have never claimed that they represent the last word in recorded sound quality. The tapes have lain untouched and neglected for 30 years in boxes in an attic.

The fact that we can hear anything at all is-frankly-a b***** miracle ;D ;D.  If asked at any point over the last three decades about these tapes I would have said that they would be worthless. Had I moved
house at any point during the last thirty years goodness alone knows what might have become of them :o :o

In response to perfectly proper and very helpful comments I have increased the amplification of the recordings in this second conversion to mp3. Given time I may be able to make further improvements,
eg, getting rid of sound 'blips'.

I hope that-at least for the time being-people will be happy to have these recordings......the alternative was not to have them ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2011, 11:45:41 PM
That was quick!  :o :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 02:04:50 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 28, 2011, 04:02:57 PM
I prefer Brian 3 to the Turangalila any day. The latter is vastly overrated in my very humble opinion.

Actually,I can't stand the 'Turangalila! :o I prefer Brian's 3rd. I was just making a comparison,because of their use of the piano. Messiaens incorporation of the piano is deliberate,Brian's more an accident of circumstances,and they are both obviously very different works,I know,but there are passages in the earlier Brian work which bring the Turangalila to mind. Of course,the fact that they both seem to have quasi Piano Concerto's weaving in and out of them ( and some astonishing textures) IS,undoubtedly, the only real connection at all! (The 'Briangalila Symphony' it is not!) And Brian didn't use an ondes Martenot,(ever!)thankfully!!!!
It just stands out from the other British symphonies of it's time like a sore thumb. A one off! Like Brian,himself!
I'm glad you like his 3rd,John! (I know you're a big fan of his 4th).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2011, 02:32:31 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 28, 2011, 05:08:47 PM
May I just add something about these Brian downloads?

The original recordings were made in mono in the mid-1970s on a smallish reel-to-reel tape recorder. Many of my recordings at that time were made during the day whilst I was at work. I could not therefore
monitor the recording; it was very much a case of 'press start and go away' to attend to my principal and over-riding responsibility of teaching my pupils.

I have never claimed that they represent the last word in recorded sound quality. The tapes have lain untouched and neglected for 30 years in boxes in an attic.

The fact that we can hear anything at all is-frankly-a b***** miracle ;D ;D.  If asked at any point over the last three decades about these tapes I would have said that they would be worthless. Had I moved
house at any point during the last thirty years goodness alone knows what might have become of them :o :o

In response to perfectly proper and very helpful comments I have increased the amplification of the recordings in this second conversion to mp3. Given time I may be able to make further improvements,
eg, getting rid of sound 'blips'.

I hope that-at least for the time being-people will be happy to have these recordings......the alternative was not to have them ;D ;D
Don't sound so apologetic. I also have some late 60s reel to reel monos taken off an ancient radio using a Grundig machine. I managed to transfer a couple of recordings from these old tapes but was horrified to find that my younger brother had recorded over a 1970 Bliss/LSSO piano concerto from Cheltenham with two episodes of Round The Horne. The BBC didn't archive this performance so I'm still rather peeved. As much as I love HiFi I can listen through poor recorded sound up to a point if the music making is worth hearing. There is no better Elgar fiddle concerto than the Albert Sammons and I don't care about the sound. I also prefer analogue to digital. Well done for putting in the effort and sharing your work. If it's OK with you I will burn these to CD, listen through and then attempt a few fixes to remove blips and suchlike. Can't promise anything but I will have a go. My attention today is very much focused on West Ham vs Leicester City but I will get stuck in next week. I was surprised to hear the radio announcer mention Rolf Holmes. Never heard of him. I do enjoy Ralph Harris though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2011, 02:36:58 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 02:04:50 AM
Actually,I can't stand the 'Turangalila! :o I prefer Brian's 3rd. I was just making a comparison,because of their use of the piano. Messiaens incorporation of the piano is deliberate,Brian's more an accident of circumstances,and they are both obviously very different works,I know,but there are passages in the earlier Brian work which bring the Turangalila to mind. Of course,the fact that they both seem to have quasi Piano Concerto's weaving in and out of them ( and some astonishing textures) IS,undoubtedly, the only real connection at all! (The 'Briangalila Symphony' it is not!) And Brian didn't use an ondes Martenot,(ever!)thankfully!!!!
It just stands out from the other British symphonies of it's time like a sore thumb. A one off! Like Brian,himself!
I'm glad you like his 3rd,John! (I know you're a big fan of his 4th).
I think the 3rd is very good music. Excellent stuff. What makes you think I dislike the 4th? Oh, yes, now I remember - I ripped it to bits on this forum some weeks ago. Purely subjective of course. I'm not a huge fan. It's up there with Khachaturian 3. Here I go again....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 03:00:33 AM
Only the other week I was listening to Elgars acoustic recordings of his suites & 'Starlight Express'. Marvellous stuff! (And about time his pre-electric recordings were re-released!) I also have Nikisch's Beethoven 5,Fried's 20's recordings of Mahler 2 & Bruckner 7,1910 recordings of orchestral music by Edouard Colonne & Pathe's 1911 complete recording of Carmen,amongst other early recordings in my collection. And what about poor old Lionel Mapleson,of Mapleson cylinders 'fame'?
It could be allot worse Dundonnell!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 03:10:47 AM
Re Albert Sammons - I love his recording of the Delius and Elgar VCs. As for the Turangalila vs Brian's Third - give me the latter any day. Just listened to it again. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a new and spacious recording? A Brianite can dream...

Btw, I wonder what the HBS has in store for 2012, when they intend to celebrate the 20th anniversary of Brian's death with (a) concert(s), also featuring symphonies...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2011, 03:44:38 AM
Of course, John, do what you can :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2011, 03:46:10 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2011, 11:45:41 PM
That was quick!  :o :)

Determination, perseverance, 14 hours of solid work and a great deal of unstinting help and encouragement from Albion :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 03:49:12 AM
Please don't get me wrong,Johan! Just a comparison. But people go on about the Messiaen,yet Brians bold experiment/s get overlooked. I'm just trying to think of another British symphony of the time that incorporates the piano in this way. I can't think of anything.Can you? Anybody,out there? I personally,think it one of Brians most original works.
Personally,(each to his own,of course),two minutes of Messiaen is enough to drive me up the wall!

Incidentally,I first heard the 3rd via the Aries Lp release & my old dolby cassette would have been the Pope recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 03:51:16 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 29, 2011, 03:46:10 AM
Determination, perseverance, 14 hours of solid work and a great deal of unstinting help and encouragement from Albion

Napoleon really was unhinged. That he could call Albion 'perfidious' is beyond me.

@cilgwyn I voted FOR Brian's Third!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 04:03:46 AM
Bax's Second Symphony No 2,is another British symphony,albeit a little earlier,that also uses the piano in an in a fascinating and novel way. Another hugely underrated work.( I think the Prom performance did allot for his cause). But Brian's 3rd. A symphony and a piano concerto,rolled into one...well almost. What more could a discerning music lover want?
The 'Briangalila' symphony? But,it's more original than that.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 04:08:35 AM
Briangalila Symphony - I like it!

Bax 2 is fascinating, certainly. But it's a much narrower world. You traverse so many landscapes in Brian's Third...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2011, 04:10:21 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 03:51:16 AM


Napoleon really was unhinged. That he could call Albion 'perfidious' is beyond me.

@cilgwyn I voted FOR Brian's Third!


Very true ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2011, 04:11:33 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 03:49:12 AM
Please don't get me wrong,Johan! Just a comparison. But people go on about the Messiaen,yet Brians bold experiment/s get overlooked. I'm just trying to think of another British symphony of the time that incorporates the piano in this way. I can't think of anything.Can you? Anybody,out there? I personally,think it one of Brians most original works.
Personally,(each to his own,of course),two minutes of Messiaen is enough to drive me up the wall!

Incidentally,I first heard the 3rd via the Aries Lp release & my old dolby cassette would have been the Pope recording.
Two minutes? Very well done. This breaks my personal best by 45 seconds.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 04:17:59 AM
Woooooooo-eeeeee! It certainly beats the 'Krypton factor'! I'm suprised the CIA don't use it. (Although,again,no offence to Messiaen admirers!!!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on October 29, 2011, 04:24:46 AM
One would have thought that Brian-lovers would have less trouble than some do with Messiaen's trademark jump-cut juxtapositions...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 04:34:35 AM
I don't have any problems with jump-cuts in music. My problem with Messiaen is more a matter of temperament. His time-scales are very diffucult to manage for me, as I am not religious. I also like my eroticism a bit cooler and reserved, like in Delius and, even, Scriabin. They know when to stop.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2011, 04:38:14 AM
Oh..I love the "statue theme" in 'Turangalila' ;D ;D

In a live performance I often focus excessively on the brass and in 'Turangalila' the recurrence of that theme is exciting, imposing, baleful............

I also very much admire Messiaen's organ compositions-particularly "La Nativite du Seigneur". The final Meditation from that work "Dieu parmi nous" is incredibly grand ;D I have had the pleasure of sitting
next to an organist who was playing the work and I can assure you those last few minutes are hair-raising, goose-bumps moments ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 04:41:14 AM
Yes, early Messiaen is very good. Banquet céleste, Nativité du Seigneur and other pieces I really like very much...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2011, 04:45:07 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 04:34:35 AM
I don't have any problems with jump-cuts in music. My problem with Messiaen is more a matter of temperament. His time-scales are very diffucult to manage for me, as I am not religious. I also like my eroticism a bit cooler and reserved, like in Delius and, even, Scriabin. They know when to stop.

"Scriabin knows when to stop"........???????

I hadn't noticed ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 04:48:44 AM
'The Poem of Ecstasy' is a model of restraint... ;-)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 04:55:10 AM
Scriabin's eroticism 'cooler' and more 'reserved'? Bl**** Bill! Are you sure? Some of it sounds almost like the musical equivalent of jerking off to me. I can almost visualise Scriabin,working away at his score with the perspiration dripping off his hands and brow,getting himself more and more worked up.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2011, 04:57:52 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 04:48:44 AM
'The Poem of Ecstasy' is a model of restraint... ;-)

Well, I shall grant you that it is not as long as it seems...but the 'Divine Poem' lasts forty hours rather than forty minutes ;D ;D

I first heard the 'Poem of Ecstasy' on a Russian LP which weighed an absolute ton. The performance was by the Leningrad PO under Mravinsky, the recording was execrable but on the other side
is a performance of the Overture to Tannhauser which, despite the crackles and horrendous sound quality, is unbelievably electric :) :) Still got the LP :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2011, 04:59:28 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 04:55:10 AM
Scriabin's eroticism 'cooler' and more 'reserved'? Bl**** Bill! Are you sure? Some of it sounds almost like the musical equivalent of jerking off to me. I can almost visualise Scriabin,working away at his score with the perspiration dripping off his hands and brow,getting himself more and more worked up.

Thank you for this colourful imagery :o :-X
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 05:01:11 AM
And felled by a pimple (or a boil,or according to Wikipedia,a shaving cut?).
The Song of the High Hills IS quite erotic sounding,particularly those 'Aaah! Aaaah-ing!' bits! :o

The :o is in the right place now!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 05:04:12 AM
Oh well, everyone has his own ears and experience. I hear a combination of erotic and mystical yearning. So it's not simply sexual. That goes for both Delius and Scriabin.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 05:05:15 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 29, 2011, 04:59:28 AM
Thank you for this colourful imagery :o :-X

I did say it was the SCORE he was working away at!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 05:18:08 AM
Seriously,I totally agree with you there,Johan. The title,'Poem of Ecstasy',for example,strikes me as a bit of a misnomer really,but I'd be amazed if sex didn't come into these two composers thoughts,at times! Talking about sex!!!! :o Bax's Winter Legends always strikes me as a very sexually charged work,even if Bax said it was 'about' what he said it was! He did have a thing for the ladies after all!

But did Brian write any erotically charged music? Parts of 'The Wine of Summer',maybe?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on October 29, 2011, 05:21:59 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 05:01:11 AM
The :o is in the right place now!!!

That's what she said.

(http://i.imgur.com/l7txa.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 05:35:18 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on October 29, 2011, 05:21:59 AM
That's what she said.

:-)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 05:36:31 AM
Making me laugh there,Lethe! (Am I a 'she'? :o). This is a serious debate,ya know!!!!!
Yes,come to think of it,The Wine of Summer HAS to be Brian's most erotic work!
But like Delius or Scriabin,it's not quite as straight forward as that.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2011, 05:37:23 AM
How many posts in this thread relate to Havergal Brian? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 05:42:48 AM
Messiaen derailed it...

As for Brian and eroticism, there isn't too much of it. Though Symphony No. 2 also deals with the 'loves' of its hero, and Doctor Merryheart seems to know the phenomenon, too. The single most erotic thing in Brian is Green Pastures, from The Tigers, as far as I know, with soldiers forgetting about war and showing more interest in pretty maidens.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 05:43:14 AM
One or two,Dundonnell? ;D Of course,Alfred Lord Douglas would have been thinking about blokes,which complicates things even further,but makes any perceived subtext to Brian's Fifth even more intriguing,as Brian was strongly heterosexual (or so I have always been led to believe!).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 05:51:25 AM
The Wine of Summer always sounds very hot house and steamy to my ears! Very,'fin de siecle',temperature wise. I always feel the urge to jump into a cold shower after just one listen. Which could be a problem as I only have a bath!
Green pastures is certainly quite 'sexy',in it's own way,but (to my ears) emotionally more restrained. But I will have another listen later,to make sure (cold bath at the ready!).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2011, 05:52:21 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 29, 2011, 05:37:23 AM
How many posts in this thread relate to Havergal Brian? ;D
I see Arsenal had a good win at Chelsea. Who's Brian? :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2011, 05:57:30 AM
Who are Arsenal? What are they doing in Chelsea?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2011, 06:21:57 AM
And now for something quite unusual. A post about Havergal Brian. I've been messing with the Holmes VC MP3 and found 5 ruinous moments at 7'14'', 16'40'', 16' 55'', 26'36'' and 35'45'' where the tape seemed to kick in a limiter and the sound immediately fell away and almost disappeared. I've sorted these out - not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but an improvement all the same. I also fixed the decay at the very end which was a bit chopped off. Other than that there's a slight brightening and a bit more at the bottom end. Hope you like it. Will listen to the others at a later time. I enjoy this piece. It has its Delian moments and a theme very similar to Elgar's Windflower. As to Rolf/Ralph. Brilliant. Here's the link:
http://www.mediafire.com/?7ovbho91wr9bgb6
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 06:22:53 AM
Talking about the 'Wine of Summer',again. What is this 'Humbolt Redwood State Park Community Symphony Orchestra' (did I get that right?) performing Havergal Brian,on Youtube? I don't remember Johan mentioning that?!!!!!

And now here are the football results with Dickie Davis:

Arsenal: one
Chelsea  four
Tottenham Hotspurs: Two
Leed utd: one
The Wine of Summer: three
Sinfonia Tragica Wanderers: Four 
(shome mistake ed.)                   (etc,etc)
 

OOps! Thank you,John! :o
I prefer the Holmes to the Naxos,always have,I'm afraid!


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 06:34:42 AM
Many thanks, John! When I'm home again I'll compare the Dundonnell and Whitmore versions.

@Cilgwyn The name of that orchestra is of course lifted from the pirated Aries recording. As for 'Wine of Summer', it doesn't sound 'steamy' to me. It's rather severe and bleakly poetic. The greatest warmth occurs at the end, with the passionate outburst about lost youth. I do love the work, btw.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2011, 06:38:43 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 29, 2011, 06:21:57 AM
And now for something quite unusual. A post about Havergal Brian. I've been messing with the Holmes VC MP3 and found 5 ruinous moments at 7'14'', 16'40'', 16' 55'', 26'36'' and 35'45'' where the tape seemed to kick in a limiter and the sound immediately fell away and almost disappeared. I've sorted these out - not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but an improvement all the same. I also fixed the decay at the very end which was a bit chopped off. Other than that there's a slight brightening and a bit more at the bottom end. Hope you like it. Will listen to the others at a later time. I enjoy this piece. It has its Delian moments and a theme very similar to Elgar's Windflower. As to Rolf/Ralph. Brilliant. Here's the link:
http://www.mediafire.com/?7ovbho91wr9bgb6

Thank you, John. I have downloaded the file and will listen to it later. If you can improve the other Brian pieces that would obviously be wonderful too.

This is exactly the sort of thing I intended to try to do myself once the recordings in my collection had all been uploaded. Whether I will be successful is another matter of course.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 07:20:11 AM
I notice that Dundonnell was bemoaning the lack of responses to threads on less well known composers (on the missing posters (?) thread). As the Brian thread,reaches 124 (pages) and the Wilfred Joseph thread stalls at two (and I tried HARD for Scott and Cowell! :o ),much as I like Brian,I can't help feeling a certain sympathy for his view. In a 'fair' world (!!!)that underrated towering genius Joseph Holbrooke would have more threads than anyone else here,and I'm pretty sure it would do wonders for his poor ghosts,vast,ego! ;D (Poor Joseph,I mean Josef.I DID enjoy that new Dutton disc,though! :o)
Here's to the millionth page!

144,I lost count!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 07:27:01 AM
When an artist is dead, only his work can speak for him. If enough people react strongly and positively to it, he'll have champions to fight his cause. There must be something to Brian's music that his admirers feel so strongly about it. Speaking for myself, I have heard so many extraordinary things in his music, I must speak out and 'spread the word'... Only a powerful artist can inspire so much dogged advocacy.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 08:07:05 AM
I agree. Why not Bantock? He's pretty good!!!! But there's something about Brian. Whether it's self perpetuating notoriety,I don't know. But I don't think so. Bantock (taking him as an example) was a superb orchestrator,a fascinating sounding man & I'm sure he would have been wonderful person to know;but there's something about Brian that runs deeper. Goodness knows what it is really,(Bantock,as a person,sounds pretty deep),but maybe that's what keeps people like me posting.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 08:18:10 AM
I love and admire Brian's music for its independence, inventiveness, power, its uncosy, uncompromising nature, controlled emotion, grandeur, variety.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2011, 08:31:24 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 08:18:10 AM
I love and admire Brian's music for its independence, inventiveness, power, its uncosy, uncompromising nature, controlled emotion, grandeur, variety.
You are an anarchist at heart then? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 08:35:40 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 29, 2011, 08:31:24 AM
You are an anarchist at heart then?

Perhaps. I can respect and admire people. But I bow to no-one.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 08:44:58 AM
I notice there IS a Bantock thread. Five 'pages' of it. The last two posts are by 'yours truly',in which I express a forlorn desire to see some Bantock at the Proms! 'Sappho' and the 'Pagan' get an honourable mention. Whether the tickets will sell out in Gothic style is debatable. If it ever happens,I actually hope they do!
Is there any other 'neglected' or 'underrated' composer that attracts the same interest as Brian? Langgaard? Koechlin,has done reasonably well,with the help of his indefatigable,personal campaigner,'Mirror Image'.
Maybe,Langgaard has a similarly devoted following,somewhere,in Danish? A Langgaard thread that reaches to 144 pages?
Who knows?
(Anybody?)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on October 29, 2011, 08:48:06 AM
Brian's interest may in part be summed up by what happens when you try to write a capsule description of his style: it raises more questions than answers. I can scarcely think of even a great composer who would force this situation.

"He writes like Elgar and Strauss but with the tunes cut in half. Highly condensed in his material, but also wrote the largest recognised symphony. Simultaneously both late Romantic and modern, not as a transitional figure, but an integrated and highly personal synthesis of both."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 09:09:28 AM
Nice encapsulation, Sara!

@cilgwyn I know and love Langgaard's music. But I think Brian is more characteristic and consistent.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2011, 09:21:35 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 07:20:11 AM
I notice that Dundonnell was bemoaning the lack of responses to threads on less well known composers (on the missing posters (?) thread). As the Brian thread,reaches 124 (pages) and the Wilfred Joseph thread stalls at two (and I tried HARD for Scott and Cowell! :o ),much as I like Brian,I can't help feeling a certain sympathy for his view. In a 'fair' world (!!!)that underrated towering genius Joseph Holbrooke would have more threads than anyone else here,and I'm pretty sure it would do wonders for his poor ghosts,vast,ego! ;D (Poor Joseph,I mean Josef.I DID enjoy that new Dutton disc,though! :o)
Here's to the millionth page!

144,I lost count!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obviously, I agree with you.....well up to the point when you say that Holbrooke should have more threads than anyone else here ;D

I don't deny anyone the right to make claims about favourite composers nor do I deny Brian's genius.

I do however think that some other composers deserve a much fairer share of attention than they have had up to now.

And I point blank refuse to get into a game of comparisons between the respective merits of individual composers. If there is a Brian v. Bantock game on then I shan't be watching ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 09:38:13 AM
I was joking about Holbrooke. I can just imagine him looking at at this GMG board and thinking,"I've got no b**** thread here? Bl**** cheek!  Says it all about the state of British music (rant! rant!)". He does seem to have been a little vain. But,I can empathise with him,in a way. As my father used to say,'Life is unfair,Mr Godfrey!'
Did I include Beethoven,Mahler & Mozart,incidentally? (Where is Wolfgang's thread,anyway?!!! He's quite interesting too! Love Don Giovanni!!!!)
As to comparisons. I totally agree with you. I was just thinking about what you said & wondering why such an undoubtedly interesting composer (and personality) as Bantock (sorry Holbrooke! ;D)engenders less posts than Havergal Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dax on October 29, 2011, 09:43:27 AM
Again, many thanks to Dundonnell for those recordings. The 3rd Symphony is spinning as I post. None of it rings a bell as yet, but it was 1974 or 1975 (?).

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2011, 11:36:33 AM
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Tell us more!!

No big deal really. I ran into Ronald Stevenson during the aftermath of a concert given by a couple of friends of mine. He and David Wilde were rehearsing the Brian the next day and he invited me along to "turn pages". Actually he didn't really need anybody to turn pages, but just wanted the excuse to continue chatting about matters musical and otherwise in which we were both or all passionately interested. I was monumentally grateful for his pointing me towards a copy of the manuscript of the original (aleatoric) version of Percy Grainger's Random Round which I subsequently put into performable order - and performed with students on several occasions since.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 09:55:33 AM
I only wish to god I could 'run into' people like that! Although,at my age,it would more like a 'shuffle' than a 'run'!
My father met Ian Parrott on a train (hope I spelt his name right) and Gerald Durrell. I met Sir Geraint Evans briefly & Mel Smith,but I would rather not repeat what was said!! :o
My father DID miss Sharon Tate,apparently! Poor man!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2011, 09:59:08 AM
I've had a go at cleaning up the Brian 20 MP3. Unlike the Holmes VC where some decent improvements were made there's not really a lot I could do with it other than top and tail, de-hiss and remove a few thumps. Only a marginal improvement I'm afraid. Here's the link anyway:
http://www.mediafire.com/?9kc7y0q87ylr03c
PS I see that there have been 7 downloads of the updated VC. Any comments chaps and chapesses? I think the playing is rather good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 10:05:55 AM
From poor 'old' Sharon Tate to Havergal Brian's Violin Concerto. What we do without John?!!!
As I've stated before. I don't like the Naxos recording,full stop,with all due respect. He's obviously a marvellous violinist,but it's Holmes who gets under the 'skin' of the thing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2011, 10:07:01 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 29, 2011, 09:59:08 AM
I've had a go at cleaning up the Brian 20 MP3. Unlike the Holmes VC where some decent improvements were made there's not really a lot I could do with it other than top and tail, de-hiss and remove a few thumps. Only a marginal improvement I'm afraid. Here's the link anyway:
http://www.mediafire.com/?9kc7y0q87ylr03c
PS I see that there have been 7 downloads of the updated VC. Any comments chaps and chapesses? I think the playing is rather good.

Immensely grateful to John for his efforts :)

I would-once again-point out that these recordings were not made in ideal circumstances. They have lain, gathering dust, for 30 long years in boxes in my attic.
If, at any point, in the last 30 years anybody had asked me about them I would have said that they were now worthless and unplayable.
If, at any point, in the last 30 years I had moved house then they would probably have been binned.

I am amazed that they have survived :) :) Whatever manifest and manifold deficiencies they have pales compared to the fact that I can now listen to them again and I am extraordinarily happy that I can share
them with others :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2011, 10:07:58 AM
Quote from: James on October 29, 2011, 10:03:31 AM
Just came across this on Amazon .. the Brian-junkies are probably already aware of it?

[asin]B005Z4D2EW[/asin]
I actually like the sleeve very much. Honest. Let's see what they've managed to get out of the BBC tapes. I reckon it will be spectactularly good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2011, 10:16:00 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 10:05:55 AM
From poor 'old' Sharon Tate to Havergal Brian's Violin Concerto. What we do without John?!!!
As I've stated before. I don't like the Naxos recording,full stop,with all due respect. He's obviously a marvellous violinist,but it's Holmes who gets under the 'skin' of the thing.
It's Holmes for me every time but I would like to hear the Sharon Tate ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 10:17:26 AM
It's certainly different. Very minimalistic & in line with all the current pairing down of things! :o
Anyway,enough of that (Did my father meet Sharon Tate?!!! :o) THRILLING debate!
Kwik Save,if they were still in business would be VERY proud of that 'artwork'!
In the 'words of' Lord Kitchener,Hyperion designers;'Britons need you!'
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2011, 10:19:09 AM
It's 'Valley of the Brianites' here,unfortunately! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 10:30:11 AM
Quote from: Dax on October 29, 2011, 09:43:27 AM
Again, many thanks to Dundonnell for those recordings. The 3rd Symphony is spinning as I post. None of it rings a bell as yet, but it was 1974 or 1975 (?).

No big deal really. I ran into Ronald Stevenson during the aftermath of a concert given by a couple of friends of mine. He and David Wilde were rehearsing the Brian the next day and he invited me along to "turn pages". Actually he didn't really need anybody to turn pages, but just wanted the excuse to continue chatting about matters musical and otherwise in which we were both or all passionately interested. I was monumentally grateful for his pointing me towards a copy of the manuscript of the original (aleatoric) version of Percy Grainger's Random Round which I subsequently put into performable order - and performed with students on several occasions since.

Many thanks for the background story! And 'Dax' - is your moniker connected to DS9's Dax?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on October 29, 2011, 11:31:44 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 29, 2011, 09:59:08 AM
I've had a go at cleaning up the Brian 20 MP3. Unlike the Holmes VC where some decent improvements were made there's not really a lot I could do with it other than top and tail, de-hiss and remove a few thumps. Only a marginal improvement I'm afraid. Here's the link anyway:
http://www.mediafire.com/?9kc7y0q87ylr03c
PS I see that there have been 7 downloads of the updated VC. Any comments chaps and chapesses? I think the playing is rather good.

John, you definitely have a talented ear. I have the Holmes on cassette from my old reel to reel and Dundonnell's tapes are better and your tweaks better still.

Thanks all, Dundonnell, Albion and John.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dax on October 29, 2011, 11:58:12 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 10:30:11 AM
Many thanks for the background story! And 'Dax' - is your moniker connected to DS9's Dax?!

No. Nor Harold Robbins. It represents my initials (sort of).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2011, 12:26:25 PM
Quote from: Hattoff on October 29, 2011, 11:31:44 AM
Thanks all, Dundonnell, Albion and John.


Seconded! A triumph of cooperation. Listening to the VC - still THE performance, in my book (and one other's I could mention).


Later: what a wonderful work it is, too!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2011, 02:41:47 PM
Seeing as we are all discussing restorations of old tapes and LPs I thought I would share something with you. A couple of years ago I came into contact with a US based company called Rediscovery who specialise in LP restorations, similar to the Pristine Classics label. Their downloads are inexpensive and of real quality. I've bought a number of their titles and also suppied a few of my own efforts for inclusion in their catalogue. Now the good news - along with their general catalogue they also have a range of freebies called Paperback Classics drawn from World Record Club, Vanguard, Westminster, Mercury and Concert Hall issues. There's no catch. They are free. You don't have to sign up. You don't even have to supply your email address. They are excellent, especially the Binns/Rach 1, Abravanel New World, 4 Paul Paray collections and Rignold's Golden Cockerel. Here's the link. Give 'em a try.
http://www.rediscovery.us/paperbacks.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 30, 2011, 02:11:18 AM
Just finished playing around with the Brian 3 files. This tape was in very good condition considering its 30 year long visit to the attic!! I've topped and tailed it, brightened it up a bit, reduced the long pause between the 1st and 2nd movements and removed a couple of blips. Nothing major but if you want take a listen here it is:
http://www.mediafire.com/?1tcyibg51q039
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 30, 2011, 02:15:25 AM
Good morning, John! Many thanks for the contents of your latest two posts.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 30, 2011, 03:04:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 30, 2011, 02:15:25 AM
Good morning, John! Many thanks for the contents of your latest two posts.
Good day Johan. Lots of downloads for you to get stuck into!! I'm liking Brian 3, I must say. It breaks out into the slow movemwnt of Elgar 2 at one point. The 3rd movement seems to owe quite a bit to Mahler's landler type style. It's still a shambles of a piece but a shambles well worth hearing ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 30, 2011, 04:54:12 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 30, 2011, 02:11:18 AM
Just finished playing around with the Brian 3 files. This tape was in very good condition considering its 30 year long visit to the attic!! I've topped and tailed it, brightened it up a bit, reduced the long pause between the 1st and 2nd movements and removed a couple of blips. Nothing major but if you want take a listen here it is:
http://www.mediafire.com/?1tcyibg51q039

Very many thanks for your work on improving the sound quality of the two Brian Symphonies Nos. 3 and 20 :)

I am delighted that you thought that No.3 "was in very good condition". If I recall that recording was made by my father on my behalf and he was therefore able to take more care in getting it in better initial sound.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 12:13:04 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 30, 2011, 04:54:12 PM
Very many thanks for your work on improving the sound quality of the two Brian Symphonies Nos. 3 and 20 :)

I am delighted that you thought that No.3 "was in very good condition". If I recall that recording was made by my father on my behalf and he was therefore able to take more care in getting it in better initial sound.
Happy to help. Didn't do a fat lot with the syphonies to be honest but really delighted the way the violin concerto worked out. Keep em coming!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 08:42:28 AM
I wonder how the sound quality of the tape (of the 3rd) compares with the old Aries Lp,by those 'nice' Aries people (they had good taste in music,I'll say that for them!)? I didn't keep mine,unfortunately. I gather the Boult Gothic was supposed to be the best of the batch.
Anyone know?

I notice someone on ebay selling a rare 'acetate' of Havergal Brian's 'Dr Merryheart' (etc) with a photo of a 'record'. The description describing it as manufactured in the 1950's,possibly!
Strange!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on October 31, 2011, 09:48:53 AM
Interesting...

Could indeed be an acetate cut using a couple of the performances given in 1959: symphonies 11, 12 and Dr Merryheart were given by the LSO under Harry Newstone in April 1959 and transmitted by the Beeb in November that year.

Some acetates did find their way into private hands.

If it does contain these particular performances then Dr Merryheart is on a Dutton CD with the 11th symphony from the same concert, and no. 12 is available for free download from the HBS website.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 10:24:20 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 08:42:28 AM
I wonder how the sound quality of the tape (of the 3rd) compares with the old Aries Lp,by those 'nice' Aries people (they had good taste in music,I'll say that for them!)? I didn't keep mine,unfortunately. I gather the Boult Gothic was supposed to be the best of the batch.
Anyone know?

I notice someone on ebay selling a rare 'acetate' of Havergal Brian's 'Dr Merryheart' (etc) with a photo of a 'record'. The description describing it as manufactured in the 1950's,possibly!
Strange!
I also came across the Ebay item. Here's the link:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HAVERGAL-BRIAN-RARE-ACETATE-DR-MERRYHEART-EX-/190592332764?_trksid=p4340.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BSIC.NPJS%252BSI%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D190587552520%252B190587552520%252B190587552520%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D3869510127394374144
I emailed this info to Professor Herrenberg of Delft University a couple of weeks ago and he thought it was an acetate of the 1959 performance issued by Dutton.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 10:24:46 AM
Thank you for the reply. It caught my eye as its not the usual ebay Brian fare. In fact,although I HAVE heard of acetates,I had to look it up!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetate_disc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetate_disc)

It's nice to know that there were dedicated Brianites then. This is a few years before the big Brian 'revival' & Dundonnells taping endeavours,whose reel to reel tapes,incidentally, strike me as extremely hi-tech by comparison!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on October 31, 2011, 10:28:36 AM
Quote from: James on October 29, 2011, 10:03:31 AM
Just came across this on Amazon .. the Brian-junkies are probably already aware of it?

[asin]B005Z4D2EW[/asin]

I can't wait to hear this. I've longed for another recording of the Gothic, but I don't want to put my expectations too high. I can only hope the performance is good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 10:30:42 AM
It's certainly a collectors item,but with downloads & cds available,I don't think I'll be placing a bid! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 10:32:34 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 10:30:42 AM
It's certainly a collectors item,but with downloads & cds available,I don't think I'll be placing a bid! ;D
Me neither. Wouldn't do the stylus much good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 10:32:52 AM
Not quite as hi-tech as that acetate,Mirror Image! ;D
(But,one of the reasons I won't be bidding!!!!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 10:37:42 AM
I've got two old HMV wind up Gramophones. Even they're not hi-tech enough!
(And it would be worh about 1p after they finished with it!)
If it was signed by Havergal Brian,now! (And I'd probably have to busk for the next five years).

Oh,we ARE aware of it (the Hyperion) Mirror Image!!!!! :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 10:40:35 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 08:42:28 AM
I wonder how the sound quality of the tape (of the 3rd) compares with the old Aries Lp,by those 'nice' Aries people (they had good taste in music,I'll say that for them!)? I didn't keep mine,unfortunately. I gather the Boult Gothic was supposed to be the best of the batch.
Anyone know?
There are a couple of copies of the Aries Brian 3 on Ebay but they cost an arm and a leg. If anyone has this LP I'm game for doing a CD transfer. I also see that Ebay has the Naxos Brian 4 listed. I must buy it for someone I really hate ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 10:42:34 AM
Did you just call us Brian Junkies?(Mirror Image)!!!! :o
(Excuse me a moment,while I shoot up on the 'Wine of Summer'!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 10:50:55 AM
I've often wondered about those Aries Pirates.The people behind them,I mean. The Lps are 'slagged off' these days,but in 'those days',they did do us Brian admirers a service.....in a way! And they did have interesting taste in music!  Who were they? How & where did they manufacture the Lps? It wouldn't been quite as straight forward then.
Maybe they will reveal their identity,one day & post here. It would be very interesting to 'meet' them......if they're still hale & hearty,of course!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 10:51:45 AM
Of course,they could be on this forum,for all I know! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 11:04:15 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 10:50:55 AM
I've often wondered about those Aries Pirates.The people behind them,I mean. The Lps are 'slagged off' these days,but in 'those days',they did do us Brian admirers a service.....in a way! And they did have interesting taste in music!  Who were they? How & where did they manufacture the Lps? It wouldn't been quite as straight forward then.
Maybe they will reveal their identity,one day & post here. It would be very interesting to 'meet' them......if they're still hale & hearty,of course!!!!
I reckon the Aries pirates were Bob Simpson, Johan Herrenberg and Eric Pinkett. Allegedly.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 11:10:58 AM
I suppose,with Blackbeard the Pirate and Long John Silver out of the picture,it would be!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 31, 2011, 11:21:06 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 11:04:15 AM
I reckon the Aries pirates were Bob Simpson, Johan Herrenberg and Eric Pinkett. Allegedly.


You might well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 11:58:21 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 11:10:58 AM
I suppose,with Blackbeard the Pirate and Long John Silver out of the picture,it would be!
Blackbeard and L J Siver were the balance engineers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 11:58:40 AM
Or it could be me,when I had that mysterious blackout! :o :o
John,a Das Siegeslied cd could make a nice Halloween present!
Trick or treat?!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 12:04:24 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 11:58:40 AM
Or it could be me,when I had that mysterious blackout! :o :o
John,a Das Siegeslied cd could make a nice Halloween present!
Trick or treat?!!!
Trick. And a really cruel one too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 12:18:09 PM
Phew! A very intellectual debate going on in 'The Diner' ('tradition betrayed')!!! Mopping brow! This is what happens when you're brought up on Sesame Street! :(
Talking about Masterminds. I don't think Havergal Brian has ever been the 'chosen topic' on Mastermind. I can think of two possible contenders. (Not me,I don't like Quiz Shows! :( )

I've started,so I'll finish! 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 12:42:13 PM
As a Ralph Holmes fan I've been hooked big time on his Brian performance. Seemed a shame not to share it. Here's part 1 of 3:
http://youtu.be/bJXPTp15ZPs
Parts 2 and 3 are uploading as I type this.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 31, 2011, 12:47:55 PM
Good work, John! It's a marvellous performance of a wonderful work and deserves a wide(r) audience.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 01:31:38 PM
Wonderful. Now,everyone can hear the performance.
I remember playing that old C90,someone posted me,over and over again. Somehow,the new Naxos didn't cast the same spell on me.

A red letter day (night!) for Brian's admirers (and Holmes).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on October 31, 2011, 01:58:10 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 12:42:13 PMSeemed a shame not to share it. [...] Parts 2 and 3 are uploading as I type this.

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 31, 2011, 12:47:55 PMIt's a marvellous performance of a wonderful work and deserves a wide(r) audience.

Of course (given the origin) these are uploaded with Dundonnell's prior approval.

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 02:02:37 PM
Quote from: Albion on October 31, 2011, 01:58:10 PM
Of course (given the origin) these are uploaded with Dundonnell's prior approval.

;D
I hope Dundonnell will he happy with this. Happy to acknowledge him on the clips, of course. It's a great performance.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 31, 2011, 02:05:06 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 02:02:37 PM
I hope Dundonnell will he happy with this. Happy to acknowledge him on the clips, of course. It's a great performance.


Listening to the final movement... It'd be nice to credit Colin and his already legendary treasure-trove...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 02:07:58 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 31, 2011, 02:05:06 PM

Listening to the final movement... It'd be nice to credit Colin and his already legendary treasure-trove...
Colin's surname is Dundonnell? I'll update the video info.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 31, 2011, 02:08:35 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 02:07:58 PM
Colin's surname is Dundonnell? I'll update the video info.


Mackie.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 02:17:18 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 31, 2011, 02:08:35 PM

Mackie.
Video info changed on all three clips to include:
Transferred from a reel to reel tape recording made by Colin Mackie and then left in his attic for over 30 years.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 31, 2011, 02:19:10 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 02:17:18 PM
Video info changed on all three clips to include:
Transferred from a reel to reel tape recording made by Colin Mackie and then left in his attic for over 30 years.


It sounds funny, but it's the unvarnished truth.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 31, 2011, 02:24:53 PM
Quote from: Albion on October 31, 2011, 01:58:10 PM
Of course (given the origin) these are uploaded with Dundonnell's prior approval.

;D

NO. THEY WERE NOT!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 31, 2011, 02:54:22 PM
I am not sure that I have fully recovered from the shock of finding that the Violin Concerto has been posted on YouTube.

The idea of sharing my collection of music on my reel-to-reel tapes was intended to allow music-lovers with similar tastes to my own to have access to music which had not been recorded commercially or was
no longer available.

The mp3 files I am making from the old reel-to-reel tapes are going up on the Unsung Composers website because it has a Downloads section and I have myself benefited enormously over the past few weeks
by being able to download a massive amount of music I had been hoping to hear for years(indeed decades).

I shared the HB files on here because I knew-or at least suspected-that there were HB fans who were not members of Unsung Composers. If I put everything I intend to upload on Unsung Composers up
elsewhere there will be very little point in people joining that website.

I was delighted that John took the time and put in the effort to improve the quality of the Brian files.

The idea of then putting the music on You Tube is one that I would have been interested to reflect on and on which I would have sought advice.

Unfortunately, I was not given the opportunity to do so.

That I regret!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 03:19:27 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 31, 2011, 02:54:22 PM
I am not sure that I have fully recovered from the shock of finding that the Violin Concerto has been posted on YouTube.

The idea of sharing my collection of music on my reel-to-reel tapes was intended to allow music-lovers with similar tastes to my own to have access to music which had not been recorded commercially or was
no longer available.

The mp3 files I am making from the old reel-to-reel tapes are going up on the Unsung Composers website because it has a Downloads section and I have myself benefited enormously over the past few weeks
by being able to download a massive amount of music I had been hoping to hear for years(indeed decades).

I shared the HB files on here because I knew-or at least suspected-that there were HB fans who were not members of Unsung Composers. If I put everything I intend to upload on Unsung Composers up
elsewhere there will be very little point in people joining that website.

I was delighted that John took the time and put in the effort to improve the quality of the Brian files.

The idea of then putting the music on You Tube is one that I would have been interested to reflect on and on which I would have sought advice.

Unfortunately, I was not given the opportunity to do so.

That I regret!
I apologise. I didn't think there would be an issue here. The youtube videos have been removed.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 31, 2011, 04:43:18 PM
The "issue" is simply one of my prior agreement to a file which could not have been made without my original transfer being placed on YouTube.

As I said in my previous post,  the idea of putting the Violin Concerto (or any other of the Brian files) on YouTube is not one to which I would have returned an automatic negative.

My response to such a suggestion would have been along the lines of "Can that be done legally?". I simply don't know enough about YouTube to be able to answer that question myself. That is why I would
have sought appropriate advice from those who know about such things.

I would also have considered the impact of sharing my collection more widely than originally intended. I have quickly developed a very considerable amount of respect for those who run and those who
contribute to Unsung Composers. The members there are sharing their extremely valuable collections of seldom heard music on the basis of mutual trust. They do not necessarily wish to have their
recordings made available to other people. I need to respect that and to be judicious with what I share.

Again....I would probably have concluded that sharing three or four works with a wider audience might be acceptable.

This unfortunate situation could have been avoided if we had discussed it prior to anything being rushed.

I am deeply sorry that this misunderstanding has come about.  As I have said before, I am immensely grateful to John for the hard work he has put in to improving the sound quality of my originals.
This was done on a totally voluntary basis and I very much admire his efforts.

At the end of the day what unites us is a love of a great composer's music. That is the most important thing of all :)

I am sure that we can move on and reach a proper understanding and agreement. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 31, 2011, 11:47:04 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 31, 2011, 04:43:18 PM
The "issue" is simply one of my prior agreement to a file which could not have been made without my original transfer being placed on YouTube.

As I said in my previous post,  the idea of putting the Violin Concerto (or any other of the Brian files) on YouTube is not one to which I would have returned an automatic negative.

My response to such a suggestion would have been along the lines of "Can that be done legally?". I simply don't know enough about YouTube to be able to answer that question myself. That is why I would
have sought appropriate advice from those who know about such things.

I would also have considered the impact of sharing my collection more widely than originally intended. I have quickly developed a very considerable amount of respect for those who run and those who
contribute to Unsung Composers. The members there are sharing their extremely valuable collections of seldom heard music on the basis of mutual trust. They do not necessarily wish to have their
recordings made available to other people. I need to respect that and to be judicious with what I share.

Again....I would probably have concluded that sharing three or four works with a wider audience might be acceptable.

This unfortunate situation could have been avoided if we had discussed it prior to anything being rushed.

I am deeply sorry that this misunderstanding has come about.  As I have said before, I am immensely grateful to John for the hard work he has put in to improving the sound quality of my originals.
This was done on a totally voluntary basis and I very much admire his efforts.

At the end of the day what unites us is a love of a great composer's music. That is the most important thing of all :)

I am sure that we can move on and reach a proper understanding and agreement. :)
No big deal. The videos have gone. End of issue. My personal approach is to share everything via Youtube because you get the widest possible audience and therefore make the biggest impact. I was very struck with the Holmes and my instict was to "get it out there". I've posted hundreds of radio/LP performances on my 2 channels. You have a dfifferent perspective and so be it. I will get hold of the original from the BBC or buy the Aries disc and potentially resubmit to Youtube at a later date. We move on.....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 31, 2011, 11:49:33 PM
I am glad the two music enthusiasts Colin and John have settled their differences amicably.
 
 As for the legality of YouTube uploads - that's a thorny issue. The music is Brian's, the performance by Holmes/Pope/New Philharmonia, the recording and broadcast are by the BBC, preserved on reel-to-reel tapes by Colin, and now digitised by Colin and further improved by John...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 01, 2011, 04:58:00 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 31, 2011, 01:31:38 PM
Wonderful. Now,everyone can hear the performance.
I remember playing that old C90,someone posted me,over and over again. Somehow,the new Naxos didn't cast the same spell on me.

A red letter day (night!) for Brian's admirers (and Holmes).

:o Oh well,'alls well that ends well'! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: thranx on November 01, 2011, 08:38:45 AM
Gentlemen: regrets at no Sharon Tate.  However I did have a nice chat this morning with a lady some of you may remember.   Julie studied classical piano (very big on Saint-Saens) as well as ballet; however her talents took her in directions that deviated somewhat from a career in classical music.  Our acquaintance arises from the fact that my uncle produced a TV show in the '60's in which she created a role that lives to this day.  As does she.  For those who are further curious (and in the U.S.), she just wrapped a piece two days ago for the show CBS Sunday Morning which she said should air in a couple of weeks.  I neglected to ask her if she played some piano on it.  For some reason when she's interviewed, the subject of classical piano doesn't seem to come up.  I introduced her to Brian.

Brian was unique.  So is Julie.

(http://i.fanpix.net/images/orig/1/y/1y66j0a9td8bt98j.jpg)
<a href="http://www.fanpix.net/gallery/julie-newmar-pictures.htm" target="_blank">Julie Newmar Pictures</a>
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 01, 2011, 08:53:28 AM
Quote from: thranx on November 01, 2011, 08:38:45 AM
Our acquaintance arises from the fact that my uncle produced a TV show in the '60's in which she created a role that lives to this day.  As does she.


She played Catwoman... Then I 'know' her.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 01, 2011, 08:53:55 AM
I-I think I'll erm make that cd of Dundonnell,I mean,Brians 3rd now. For my own personal consumption only,of course! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 01, 2011, 09:05:14 AM
Quote from: thranx on November 01, 2011, 08:38:45 AM
Brian was unique.  So is Julie.

(http://i.fanpix.net/images/orig/1/y/1y66j0a9td8bt98j.jpg)
<a href="http://www.fanpix.net/gallery/julie-newmar-pictures.htm" target="_blank">Julie Newmar Pictures</a>

Coincidently I've been thinking about Miss Newmar much lately. She was one of my celebrity crushes in my teen years, I recently found a few episodes of My Living Doll on usenet. She was sexy and funny. Last week I saw an episode of Columbo during which she demonstrated her prowess in yoga. The camera lingered while Columbo forgot momentarily that he was married  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 01, 2011, 09:07:36 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 01, 2011, 09:05:14 AM
Last week I saw an episode of Columbo during which she demonstrated her prowess in yoga. The camera lingered while Columbo forgot momentarily that he was married  ;D

Sarge


I know that episode! Lovely lady, indeed.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on November 01, 2011, 09:33:16 AM
"Double Shock," yes, a fine episode.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 01, 2011, 09:34:53 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 31, 2011, 11:49:33 PM
I am glad the two music enthusiasts Colin and John have settled their differences amicably.
   
  As for the legality of YouTube uploads - that's a thorny issue. The music is Brian's, the performance by Holmes/Pope/New Philharmonia, the recording and broadcast are by the BBC, preserved on reel-to-reel tapes by Colin, and now digitised by Colin and further improved by John...
Legally it's the BBC's property. The tape and the post tinkering are not relevant. The BBC chucked loads of their archive away unfortunately. I've never had a complaint via Youtube about any of my radio tapes. A couple of vinyls have created problems but I just remove them when I get a warning from the Youtube police. Quite frankly I don't thoink the BBC are bothered about historical classical music recordings. I will chase a couple of my contacts there re Holmes and also speak to the RAM to see if they can put me in touch with the violinist's family. I've had success in the past (and some failures!!) but let's see. Lots of my Tippett archive comes from a friendly BBC producer who has swapped recordings with me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 01, 2011, 10:16:31 AM
I am listening to the Dundonnell taped recording of Brian as broadcast by the BBC and 'improved' by John  :D now! It's too early to make any comments, really,but,despite the age of the recording,the performance does have more flair and elan.There seems more momentum and sensitivity for Brians orchestration. I used to have the Aries Lp and a cassette of this a long time ago,so it is sort of,'coming back to me'. A fascinating score. Almost compulsive listening,one of my all time favourite symphonies.
The Hyperion is quite good,but seems to lumber along by comparison. Thank you Dundonnell & erm,John (and the Beeb,and the musicians and the conductor,etc! :D Not to mention Dundonells tape recorder & the dry atmosphere and condensation free conditions in his attic. That's enough thanks,ed. :o).
Can't wait to get to the 'Allegro Vivace'!
MARVELLOUS!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 01, 2011, 11:36:03 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 01, 2011, 10:16:31 AM
I am listening to the Dundonnell taped recording of Brian as broadcast by the BBC and 'improved' by John  :D now! It's too early to make any comments, really,but,despite the age of the recording,the performance does have more flair and elan.There seems more momentum and sensitivity for Brians orchestration. I used to have the Aries Lp and a cassette of this a long time ago,so it is sort of,'coming back to me'. A fascinating score. Almost compulsive listening,one of my all time favourite symphonies.
The Hyperion is quite good,but seems to lumber along by comparison. Thank you Dundonnell & erm,John (and the Beeb,and the musicians and the conductor,etc! :D Not to mention Dundonells tape recorder & the dry atmosphere and condensation free conditions in his attic. That's enough thanks,ed. :o).
Can't wait to get to the 'Allegro Vivace'!
MARVELLOUS!
Glad you are liking it. My next task is to make some improvements on the Naxos Brian 4. The starting point is to remove the music ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 01, 2011, 12:25:32 PM
 :D :D :D
I must confess to,rather enjoying,the very old fashioned spoken introduction to the 3rd symphony. I must admit that this is one of the main reasons why I avoid Radio 3 like the blazes these days,unless there's something I particularly need to hear or,more importantly record on ye olde cassette deck. It's just way too populistic & 'dumbed down' in tone & style. Sometimes,I wonder why they don't just chuck it in & hand the keys over to Classic FM,so we can enjoy some more of those smooooooooooooooth classics & annoying ads! Eeeugh!
Terrible throw back,aren't I?  :o
But then again,while I love music,I've never taken to the idea of someone putting on records for me. I'm like Johan,there,I need to be in the right mood for a piece of music.
As to Alan Titchtwit,Katie DerHAM & their ilk;they should stick to gardening and reading the b***** news! Gerrem off! Boooh! Hisss!
Yuk & double yuk! >:D
Anyway!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 01, 2011, 12:32:22 PM
More old fashioned R3 intro's from the vault,PLEASE!
Incidentally,remember the fuss about the demise of the Radio 4 UK opening theme? I've actually got recordings of the early morning sequence,including the news bulletins and programme material around it. Taped by my fair hands. Nostalgia buffs and anoraks everywhere,REJOICE! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 01, 2011, 12:35:57 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 01, 2011, 12:32:22 PM
More old fashioned R3 intro's from the vault,PLEASE!
Incidentally,remember the fuss about the demise of the Radio 4 UK opening theme? I've actually got recordings of the early morning sequence,including the news bulletins and programme material around it. Taped by my fair hands. Nostalgia buffs and anoraks everywhere,REJOICE! ;D


I loved that opening music, with themes from Wales, Scotland, Ireland and England... I also loved 'Sailing By' before (?) the Shipping Forecast at night...


Back to Brian!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 01, 2011, 12:39:44 PM
John? Do you categorically prefer the Holmes performance to the Marco Polo? I must admit I have never warmed to that performance,although I know that Johan has heard Bisengaliev in a live performance,which he regards as superior. I can believe this (not that I doubt Johan!) because the playing of the orchestra on the Holmes seems more sympathetic (the Naxos sounds 'rushed' by comparison).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 01, 2011, 12:48:33 PM
Back to Brian (see above!)...or Catwoman,if you want? (Batman Series 3 is on ITV4 here,coincidentally).
Please note,I'm not knocking Bisengaliev. Goodness,I wish I could play like that!
Of course,the Holmes performance IS the one I was 'raised' on. Maybe,if I'd heard the Bisengaliev first,I might feel a little differently.
(Footnote: I may make the R4 Uk Theme tape sequence available as an upoad,when I can! But not,'directly' here!)

The Dundonnell Brian (John,BBC?!!) 3rd symphony is playing on the 5cd changer for the THIRD time in succession! This is THE version!
God,I love this symphony!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 01, 2011, 12:53:04 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 01, 2011, 12:48:33 PM
(Footnote: I may make the R4 Uk Theme tape sequence available as an upoad,when I can! But not,'directly' here!)


I have that, too...


As for the Brian VC - the Holmes was my first experience of the piece, too. And as I said, the live performance by Bisengaliev was freer and more fiery. Still, Holmes  has a maturity that B. lacks. It's that what makes his performance deeper and more heart-felt.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 01, 2011, 01:12:11 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 01, 2011, 12:53:04 PM

I have that, too...


As for the Brian VC - the Holmes was my first experience of the piece, too. And as I said, the live performance by Bisengaliev was freer and more fiery. Still, Holmes  has a maturity that B. lacks. It's that what makes his performance deeper and more heart-felt.

Good! I'm not a fan of uploading!!! :)
I would love to hear Bisengaliev have another go at recording it. Maybe,he'll get another chance,one day. One things for sure,a work like that definately deserves more than one recording. Although,with so many Brian works unrecorded,maybe it's not an immeadiate priority now.
Regarding the spoken 'intro' to the 3rd symphony on Dundonnells tape. My ear was rather 'taken' by the speakers reference to the fact that the previous symphony (No 2) contained two piano's as well. Of course,there's no real connection here,is there? And,like you, I did know about this,of course.But it was interesting to hear the speaker make the connection.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 01, 2011, 01:19:08 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 01, 2011, 01:12:11 PM
Good! I'm not a fan of uploading!!! :)
I would love to hear Bisengaliev have another go at recording it. Maybe,he'll get another chance,one day. One things for sure,a work like that definately deserves more than one recording. Although,with so many Brian works unrecorded,maybe it's not an immeadiate priority now.
Regarding the spoken 'intro' to the 3rd symphony on Dundonnells tape. My ear was rather 'taken' by the speakers reference to the fact that the previous symphony (No 2) contained two piano's as well. Of course,there's no real connection here,is there? And,like you, I did know about this,of course.But it was interesting to hear the speaker make the connection.


They're used in the scherzo (Allegro assai) and finale (Lento Maestoso e Mesto). They have a supporting role, unlike in No. 3, where they're more in the limelight (shades of a PC in the first movement)..
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 01, 2011, 11:40:25 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 01, 2011, 12:39:44 PM
John? Do you categorically prefer the Holmes performance to the Marco Polo? I must admit I have never warmed to that performance,although I know that Johan has heard Bisengaliev in a live performance,which he regards as superior. I can believe this (not that I doubt Johan!) because the playing of the orchestra on the Holmes seems more sympathetic (the Naxos sounds 'rushed' by comparison).
There's not much wrong with the Naxos/Marco Polo. Thoroughly professional and a fine soloist. I just think that Holmes somewhow gets into the spirit of the thing. He seems more in love with the piece.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 02, 2011, 01:03:58 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 01, 2011, 12:35:57 PM

I loved that opening music, with themes from Wales, Scotland, Ireland and England... I also loved 'Sailing By' before (?) the Shipping Forecast at night...


Back to Brian!
By pure coincidence I bought a Naxos CD called British Light Miniatures last week for 2 quid. Link below, just scroll down and you will see it. This includes the radio 4 British medley music. Also has Barnacle Bill (Blue Peter) and my own personal favourite Out of the Blue by Herbert Bath. This is used to introduce the football results on radio's Sports Report every Saturday at 5.00 and has done for centuries. Good CD nicely recorded by the RPO. Binge's Passing By can be found on another Naxos light music compilation - great tune, right up there with his Elizabethan Serenade and the wonderful Vanity Fair by Anthony Collins..

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Tesco-Outlet/Music-/_i.html?rt=nc&LH_BIN=1&_fsub=2127389014&_sid=983611004&_trksid=p4634.c0.m309
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 02, 2011, 04:39:19 AM
I was a bit worried for a moment,when I saw that link led to 'Lazy town'! :o Now,I've got to be careful here (rather off topic),but I loved the use of 'Lillibullero' as a signature theme on the BBC World Service. Very stirring,but sadly another 'tune' that seems to have been dropped;although it does get played occasionally. I also used to quite enjoy the 'cheesy' rendition of 'Moscow nights' on the old commie bloc Radio Moscow (just before the Kremlin chimes!) And no,I'm not a communist. I was a teenager then & it was the 'fun' of listening to the 'enemy'!

Anyway,more of Brian's Symphony No 3 later. No 2 got put on last night. The Mackerras recording of course. Not quite as off beat or consistent as the 3rd,I suppose,but I remember,as a youngster,being fascinated by this bleak score and Havergal Brian's observation,that it represented 'man in his cosmic loneliness'. For some reason this struck a 'chord' with me (maybe I should have joined the gang?). Some people obviously find this symphony a disappointment after the Gothic. It is less approachable,there is some dissonance,gritty writing and less tunes! But some wonderful scoring & the fact that it is SO different,is exactly what I like about this composer. The Marco Polo recording is b***** awful. After my tape of the Mackerras got 'chewed' up I remember buying the Naxos cd & putting it on one side. The symphony I was so gripped by as a teenager just seemed a shapeless,meandering,turgid mess! Then the Mackerras download 'came along' and reminded me why the symphony had so many returns to my tape recorder. As with the 3rd,like Johan,I would love to hear this symphony in a really spacious, state of the art recording with someone like Brabbins at the helm.

NB: I wonder if John likes THIS one?!!! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 04, 2011, 04:52:45 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 02, 2011, 04:39:19 AM
Then the Mackerras download 'came along' and reminded me why the symphony had so many returns to my tape recorder. As with the 3rd,like Johan,I would love to hear this symphony in a really spacious, state of the art recording with someone like Brabbins at the helm.

NB: I wonder if John likes THIS one?!!! :o
I like the 3rd enormously but I'm not very enthusiastic about the 2nd ( I also vividly recall HB's quote in The Unknown Warrior about this piece). My lack of enthusiasm may stem from the Naxos recording which I don't care much for. I've not heard the Mackerras 2nd download. Where do I get it from? To go slightly off topic I know that Brian was influenced up to a point by Brass Bands. Where I live in Delph I am surrounded by the Brass Band tradition - the film Brassed Off was filmed here and all the villages have bands. My three sons all play in brass bands. I thought you might enjoy this. It's my youngest lad (16) depping on euphonium for Ashton band who play in the championship section. It may not be high art (whatever that may be) but it's a good sound and shows that amateur music making is still alive and kicking "Up North". Many of the brass players in our major British symphony orchestras started off in the Brass Band movement.
http://youtu.be/zO57cNxD6Lg
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 04, 2011, 01:45:42 PM
I had a chance to play in a brass band when I was young. I told him I couldn't play! He said it didn't matter!!!! Wish I had now! :(
I shall look at this later. I've spent the last few hours burning cds! :'(

The Naxos 2nd is b***** awful. The Mackerras is THE one to hear. It is also the one I grew up with,via a dolby cassette,received through the post! I think the 3rd is more original & more consistent,but I rather like the second,in it's bleak,uneven way. Mackerras really pulls the score together. The Marco Polo performance is shoddy,shapeless and the recording is 'boxy'!
I got mine off here!
If you become a fan of No 2,after listening to the Mackerras,I'll eat my hat! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 04, 2011, 02:01:54 PM
Symphony No 2 in E minor. Written in 1930-31. Performed by the BBC Symphony Orchestra conducted by Sir Charles Mackerras, on 9 March 1979.


http://www.mediafire.com/file/j12dpmtt5ic/Brian%202.mp3 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/j12dpmtt5ic/Brian%202.mp3)


The sound could be better. If you could work your magic, John, that's all right by me... In the second, slow, movement there is an all-brass dialogue that is Brian at his most characteristic.


And now I'm off again. Busy!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 04, 2011, 02:11:47 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 04, 2011, 02:01:54 PM
Symphony No 2 in E minor. Written in 1930-31. Performed by the BBC Symphony Orchestra conducted by Sir Charles Mackerras, on 9 March 1979.


http://www.mediafire.com/file/j12dpmtt5ic/Brian%202.mp3 (http://www.mediafire.com/file/j12dpmtt5ic/Brian%202.mp3)


The sound could be better. If you could work your magic, John, that's all right by me... In the second, slow, movement there is an all-brass dialogue that is Brian at his most characteristic.


And now I'm off again. Busy!
I'll take a listen.Many thanks.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dax on November 04, 2011, 03:19:22 PM
Quote from: Luke on September 08, 2011, 09:24:20 AM
The music rather reminds me of theose Stalinist scores - e.g. Sviridov's infamous Vremya Vpered (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBO_ujPHYYM&feature=related) - which aim to convince of the rightness of their political stance by dint of brazen power that brooks no sentiment or argument.

Thanks for posting that. I'd never heard it before. A steel band arrangement beckons . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on November 05, 2011, 02:37:10 AM
Oh, that is a beautiful idea!  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on November 05, 2011, 02:49:47 AM
...though it probably exists in that form on youtube somewhere! Just done a quick search - just Sviridov Vremya Vpered - and am currently listening to a version for a quartet of balalaikas and bayans (surprisingly fab) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQg-mwpU4Fc . Previously a slightly chilling Russian Nationalist youth meeting with massed baseball-capped drummers, too much smoke and a backdrop of military footage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KUueRjp1Ik ). Here comes a 'violin techno-acoustic fusion'.... Ouch! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwKpwOUD1Gc
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dax on November 05, 2011, 07:34:22 AM
Fantastic! Many thanks for the links. The balalaikas + accordions were particularly welcome.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 05, 2011, 07:57:14 AM
Havergal Brian wrote a balalaika concerto? :o :o :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 05, 2011, 08:06:21 AM
No, but Tubin did...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 05, 2011, 08:09:47 AM
And you're back!
Still busy? (off topic! :o)
(I must hear that!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 05, 2011, 08:23:18 AM
I do keep tabs on this thread, but I didn't (don't) have much time to join in. The latest Newsletter just appeared, and it will please you that all extant Brian songs are in the process of being recorded. The first volume is in the can, and the next one will be recorded early next year (have forgotten the name of the performer(s), but he also did a Delius Songbook). So, the Brian train is still going full steam ahead.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 05, 2011, 09:07:16 AM
I have noticed. Nothing wrong with being busy,though (I hope?). I'm very pleased.to say the least,that all Brian's songs ARE going to be recorded. About time too. As they don't share the complexities and issues of his symphonies,or any symphony for that matter,it's all the more suprising that it should have taken so long.
Not only are they great songs,but some of them have very catchy,'hummable' tunes. Shower/bath/doing the washing up hummable in my experience,and it's VERY hard to understand why some of them aren't in the repertory. But such is this life. Allot of very talented people just don't get their due.
I say this,as someone who isn't often fired by English song. To be honest,as far as I'm concerned,with minor exceptions,Britten is as good as it gets......but only in HIS (or Peter Pears's) recordings!
  With regard to Britten. I find it interesting that Brian gets more posts here in an average week than Britten gets in a proverbial 'month of Sundays'!!!!!!

NB: Just finished burning the Brian Holmes VC. Coupled with Orr cond by Gibson!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 05, 2011, 09:28:08 AM
It's funny - when I first listened to Orr's symphony I preferred Mester's reading to Gibson's. Now it's the other way round - G's slower tempi add to the weight of the work.

I also love Brian's songs. So many melodies pop into my head when I think of them, and specific lines - 'My heart is empty, and my feet are bare', and on that word 'bare' the start of a funereal march rhythm. Haunting stuff!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 05, 2011, 09:41:59 AM
The Orr is 'hot' off the pc. I burned it because I know you & others here have praised it. I'm glad you like the Gibson. I think he's another underrated conductor (like Thomson). I like his Sibelius and Nielsen recordings.
The Brian/Orr cd,will be on next.

Regarding,the Brian songs. You mean Mark Stone,don't you??? (I notice his cd of songs by Ronald Corp was given a very enthusiastic review in IRR,recently. I haven't heard it,but I remember reading the review).
I may be wrong!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 05, 2011, 09:52:03 AM
Mark Stone, yes, that's the one. He seems to be quite pleased with the results so far. I can't wait!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 05, 2011, 10:49:37 AM
Neither can I?
I have the Brian VC on now. The first time I have been able to listen to it properly. This is the performance for me. It is the first time I have really enjoyed this Concerto in years. For some reason,the Naxos recording leaves me cold. I actually started thinking it wasn't as good as I once thought it was. But I put the Holmes performance on & suddenly it takes fire,I'm gripped & I'm thinking this is one of the best Violin Concerto's I've heard. And I don't usually like Violin Concerto's!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 05, 2011, 11:15:17 AM
I think it's a very inspired piece. So I share your enthusiasm.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 05, 2011, 12:54:27 PM
The Orr really is something,isn't it? I can see why Gibson was conducting this. For a conductor with his credentials it would have been his kind of territory.
I was enjoying the Bainton Sym 2 & Clifford symphonies earlier (not bad at all,especially the Clifford!) but the Orr is obviously a far more more original creation. I am a little confused though,as there seem to be more than one composer,on the internet,with the surname,Orr! This IS Robin Orr,isn't it? And is this the symphony on the  emi cd? (I also found Buxton Orr & another Orr, :o Charles Wilfred Orr,who OBVIOUSLY isn't him!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on November 05, 2011, 01:08:37 PM
Orr's Symphony has a craggy appeal - like Brian and Chavez (Symphony 4).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on November 05, 2011, 01:20:59 PM
Way back when I used to take books out of the Rowe Music Library at Kings', I'd get them home to find Robin Orr's markings written into them. That was pretty cool...  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 05, 2011, 01:31:40 PM
Craggy but approachable. The Brian VC and Orr make splendid companions. I'm rather glad I chose the Orr to fill the rest of the cd! This really IS a find. In fact,probably the best British symphony (Scottish) I've heard for a while. I know it has a few admirers on this board. This is the emi cd of the recording,of course (as you will already  know!).which I just had a look at now:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Dec02/Fricker.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Dec02/Fricker.htm)

The other Orr,Buxton Orr I note,composed scores for some horror movies! Not that there's anything wrong with that. You've got to earn you're 'bread and butter' somehow!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 05, 2011, 01:37:07 PM
I think it was John who said that that live performance by Gibson is better than the studio one on the EMI CD...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 05, 2011, 02:33:24 PM
Wait a minute!  :o I'm always doing loads of other things while I'm listening. This was a download. Is this the live performance? It certainly IS Gibson! It's a bit difficult to catch every single moment when you're painting,writing AND cooking! If it is,they certainly are a quiet audience!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 05, 2011, 03:39:58 PM
Unlike that Stenhammer,I was listening to earlier. I could barely miss those loud coughs!
More Orr tomorrow,when I'm less busy.
This busy-ness is catching,you know!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 05, 2011, 04:09:27 PM
I have tape recordings of Robin Orr's Symphony No.2 and Symphony No.3 which I have uploaded in another place ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dax on November 05, 2011, 04:31:21 PM
Quote from: Luke on November 05, 2011, 01:20:59 PM
Way back when I used to take books out of the Rowe Music Library at Kings', I'd get them home to find Robin Orr's markings written into them. That was pretty cool...  8)

I hope they were more interesting than his lectures. He assumed that no first-year student knew anything about music. Sounds as though we were at the same place . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 06, 2011, 02:54:58 AM
After my embarassing admission that I didn't exactly hear every note of the Orr symphony & couldn't even recall whether it was a live performance,or not :o,I will have another CLOSER listen today! ;D

Don't know about Orr's lectures;but then again,I DON'T like lectures! Just the term,lecture,is bad enough,in itself.
Anyone fancy a lecture?

And back to Brian,eh? (Only connection,a certain cragginess! :o !)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 06, 2011, 02:57:15 AM
Don't apologise, cilgwyn... Yes, it's the live performance you've been listening to.


@Colin Thanks! I'll check them out later!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 06, 2011, 05:06:56 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 05, 2011, 12:54:27 PM
The Orr really is something,isn't it? I can see why Gibson was conducting this. For a conductor with his credentials it would have been his kind of territory.
I was enjoying the Bainton Sym 2 & Clifford symphonies earlier (not bad at all,especially the Clifford!) but the Orr is obviously a far more more original creation. I am a little confused though,as there seem to be more than one composer,on the internet,with the surname,Orr! This IS Robin Orr,isn't it? And is this the symphony on the  emi cd? (I also found Buxton Orr & another Orr, :o Charles Wilfred Orr,who OBVIOUSLY isn't him!)
Johan has sorted the confusion but if I may comment on the Orr.  It is Robin Orr and I first became aquainted with his Symphony in One Movement - later renamed Symphony No. 1 - in 1967 when Norman Del Mar (former conductor of the BBC Scottish) introduced it to the LSSO and we played it in an all British programme (Orr, Rawsthorne, Bliss) at Fairfield Hall, Croydon. I have three recordings, first of all the EMI release which I always found a bit uninspiring with it's dull sound. I then made two tape recordings off air by the Scottish National conducted by Jorge Mester and Alexander Gibson. I shared this link with Johan initially and the performance being discussed on here is the live radio 3 one with Gibson. I prefer this to the EMI. I took a shine to this piece about two minutes into our first rehearsal when that buzzing 2nd fiddle theme made a huge impact on me. The plaintive solo oboe is something else and the timp part is extraordinary. Love it!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 06, 2011, 05:39:16 AM
Thank you for this post,John. It should be better known,shouldn't it? The orchestration is very striking. I shall have to listen to it a bit more before I make any further comment!
I'm also rather glad I didn't buy the emi cd,now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 06, 2011, 05:59:52 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 06, 2011, 05:06:56 AM
I took a shine to this piece about two minutes into our first rehearsal when that buzzing 2nd fiddle theme made a huge impact on me. The plaintive solo oboe is something else and the timp part is extraordinary. Love it!!


Same here. It's turned into one of my favourite one-movement symphonies. The Harris Third is another one. Oh, and I must plug my fellow Dutchman Léon Orthel's addition to that noble line, his 'Piccola Sinfonia', Symphony No. 2. Recommended!


http://www.mediafire.com/?ngjefnhztd2
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 09, 2011, 07:58:14 AM
So the Prom Gothic is finally available for pre-order from the Hyperion website. If you are going to buy it from there,of course. There will be/are cheaper options. I do pre-order some releases of rare repertory from cd label websites eg the recent Holbrooke & Bate cds from Dutton,but obviously not everything,otherwise I would be flogging the Big Issue!
On an economy drive & I have bought my quota,so I think I will be buying this elsewhere! BUT IT'S THERE!
Inc-c-c-credible! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 09, 2011, 08:08:56 AM
And for those of us who still prefer ready made cds,to downloads,the Toccata Orchestral Works Vol 2,is available to order from the Toccata website (stocks expected,shortly).
As you will all,very probably know,allready!
But in case you don't!!!
ROLL UP! ROLL UP!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 09, 2011, 08:12:58 AM
<----Psst! Anyone fancy buying a nice woollen rug!

Also,an interesting 'new' release of recordings for admirers of Ralph Holmes,on the Heritage label,which includes Bax's Sonata No 3:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/CD/HTGCD228.htm (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/CD/HTGCD228.htm)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 09, 2011, 12:56:12 PM
Thanks, cilgwyn! The Gothic is now coming for real... I hope it will be selling well.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 09, 2011, 01:17:45 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 09, 2011, 08:12:58 AM
<----Psst! Anyone fancy buying a nice woollen rug!

Also,an interesting 'new' release of recordings for admirers of Ralph Holmes,on the Heritage label,which includes Bax's Sonata No 3:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/CD/HTGCD228.htm (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/CD/HTGCD228.htm)
Thanks. I will be getting this. His Delius and Tchaikovsky concerto recordings are excellent. This will be a nice addition. Such a shame he didn't record much. What he did record is quality.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 09, 2011, 03:11:09 PM
Interesting looking at the different timings of the four performances of the Violin Concerto,on the HBS website. I will print these out & have a more,in depth look,at this at more respectable hour! ;D
I didn't know it was originally called the 'Heroic',but there certainly is an element of that in some of the more energetic passages. I wonder what happened to the original score? Unfortunately,it probably just got chucked out,when the train was given a clean. But,wouldn't it be fascinating if it turned up & it was possible to compare the VC we all know with the original? Unlikely,though! :(
John France on Musicweb was obviously very impressed (by the Naxos performance),referring to the score,more than once,as a masterpiece.
If the Holmes performance is eventually released,and it hopefully will be;I should think it would sound better than (extremely grateful as I am) Dundonnell's copy. In fact,I have a feeling that my cassette copy sounds better,but I shall have to find it. Unfortunately,as I have mentioned before,the last few minutes of the final movement were accidentally taped over,but the remainder is fine.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 09, 2011, 05:15:22 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 09, 2011, 03:11:09 PM
Interesting looking at the different timings of the four performances of the Violin Concerto,on the HBS website. I will print these out & have a more,in depth look,at this at more respectable hour! ;D
I didn't know it was originally called the 'Heroic',but there certainly is an element of that in some of the more energetic passages. I wonder what happened to the original score? Unfortunately,it probably just got chucked out,when the train was given a clean. But,wouldn't it be fascinating if it turned up & it was possible to compare the VC we all know with the original? Unlikely,though! :(
John France on Musicweb was obviously very impressed (by the Naxos performance),referring to the score,more than once,as a masterpiece.
If the Holmes performance is eventually released,and it hopefully will be;I should think it would sound better than (extremely grateful as I am) Dundonnell's copy. In fact,I have a feeling that my cassette copy sounds better,but I shall have to find it. Unfortunately,as I have mentioned before,the last few minutes of the final movement were accidentally taped over,but the remainder is fine.

I have no doubt that IF the Holmes performance is ever released it will "sound better than Dundonnell's copy".  It would be quite remarkable if it did not.

However, in the absence of such a transfer to cd and until you find your superior cassette copy.............
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on November 09, 2011, 08:40:10 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 09, 2011, 07:58:14 AM
So the Prom Gothic is finally available for pre-order from the Hyperion website. If you are going to buy it from there,of course. There will be/are cheaper options. I do pre-order some releases of rare repertory from cd label websites eg the recent Holbrooke & Bate cds from Dutton,but obviously not everything,otherwise I would be flogging the Big Issue!
On an economy drive & I have bought my quota,so I think I will be buying this elsewhere! BUT IT'S THERE!
Inc-c-c-credible! :o

no listing as of yet on Amazon US.  However,
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/hyperion.php?k=2&w=Brian

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brian-Symphony-Gothic-HYPERION-CDA67971/dp/B005Z4D2EW/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1320902812&sr=1-4

The Prestoclassical price reflects their current 20% off sale for all Hyperion
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on November 09, 2011, 08:45:00 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 09, 2011, 08:40:10 PM
no listing as of yet on Amazon US.  However,
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/hyperion.php?k=2&w=Brian


Say what? ???

[asin]B005Z4D2EW[/asin]



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 10, 2011, 04:18:00 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 09, 2011, 05:15:22 PM
I have no doubt that IF the Holmes performance is ever released it will "sound better than Dundonnell's copy".  It would be quite remarkable if it did not.

However, in the absence of such a transfer to cd and until you find your superior cassette copy.............

I'll find it! I'll find it!!!!! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 10, 2011, 06:03:12 AM
Yeeeeehooooooooh! (Ahem!) :) I have now located the,aforementioned, cassette & YES,the sound quality beats Dundonnells tape of Brians VC,hands down.....BUT :( as I pointed out before,the last few minutes of the final movement have been taped over.....by a Welsh language lesson!!!! :o So,good news & bad news.....and until I upload it Dundonnells tape reigns supreme :(,and......even after I upload it,Dundonnell's final movement of Brian's marvellous VC,will reign supreme :(!!! Unless,you want a free Welsh language lesson,with your Brian VC,of course :)!
Incidentally,the cassette is,apparently, a copy made from a copy of a tape which was in the collection of the Havergal Brian Society itself!  :))

NB: That's enough emoticons,ed.!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on November 10, 2011, 07:19:56 AM
I finally purchased Vol.2 of Toccata's Brian writings on musical matters. I waited so long because I already owned Vol.1, but they had a bundle deal with Vols.1, 2 and their songs CD that was cheaper than buying Vol.2 and the songs alone. I eventually just gave up on waiting for a paperback of Vol.2 or for the price to go down, so I now have two copies of Vol.1 :-\
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 10, 2011, 07:33:51 AM
@cilgwyn Congratulations on finding your cassette! It would still be very worthwhile to have the first two movements in the best sound possible. An upload would be very much appreciated. If you do, check the bitrate - 192kbps would be very nice...

@Lethe You must have mixed feelings - glad at having vol. 2, miffed because you now are the proud possessor of 2 copies of vol 1... Perhaps someone on this thread would be willing to buy it from you. It's excellent fare - Brian writing about the British music of his time.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 10, 2011, 07:42:03 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 10, 2011, 06:03:12 AM
Yeeeeehooooooooh! (Ahem!) :) I have now located the,aforementioned, cassette & YES,the sound quality beats Dundonnells tape of Brians VC,hands down.....BUT :( as I pointed out before,the last few minutes of the final movement have been taped over.....by a Welsh language lesson!!!! :o So,good news & bad news.....and until I upload it Dundonnells tape reigns supreme :(,and......even after I upload it,Dundonnell's final movement of Brian's marvellous VC,will reign supreme :(!!! Unless,you want a free Welsh language lesson,with your Brian VC,of course :)!
Incidentally,the cassette is,apparently, a copy made from a copy of a tape which was in the collection of the Havergal Brian Society itself!  :))

NB: That's enough emoticons,ed.!
If your cassette is a copy of a copy of a tape held by the HBS why can't somebody borrow it again from the HBS (with the last movt intact I assume) and then share it? Or am I reading this wrong? Alternatively, your tape could be transferred with the missing part at the end (albeit lower quality) laminated in from the Dundonnel recording. The resulting hybrid, if not perfecvt, would be an improvement wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 10, 2011, 07:43:08 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 10, 2011, 07:33:51 AM
@cilgwyn Congratulations on finding your cassette! It would still be very worthwhile to have the first two movements in the best sound possible. An upload would be very much appreciated. If you do, check the bitrate - 192kbps would be very nice...

@Lethe You must have mixed feelings - glad at having vol. 2, miffed because you now are the proud possessor of 2 copies of vol 1... Perhaps someone on this thread would be willing to buy it from you. It's excellent fare - Brian writing about the British music of his time.
A bitrate of 256 would be better ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 10, 2011, 08:06:40 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 10, 2011, 07:42:03 AM
If your cassette is a copy of a copy of a tape held by the HBS why can't somebody borrow it again from the HBS (with the last movt intact I assume) and then share it? Or am I reading this wrong? Alternatively, your tape could be transferred with the missing part at the end (albeit lower quality) laminated in from the Dundonnel recording. The resulting hybrid, if not perfecvt, would be an improvement wouldn't it?


It's not that easy. As an HBS member I can borrow CDs with radio performances from the Recordings Library. You have to pay a deposit and copying is prohibited for copyright reasons. (Martyn, the HBS Webmaster, may correct me if I'm wrong). I wish the HBS would have its Library online, and that performances could be streamed to members. That would really be a 21st century solution. Now it's a hassle.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 10, 2011, 08:25:50 AM
A pefunctory sample. I will have to listen all the way through,of course! (Delius on at the moment!) How the Welsh language lesson got there,I don't know. A dodgy tape recorder,no doubt. The tape was in the machine when the button was pressed. At least it happened near the end! There may be a little wow and flutter,here and there (remember that?).

The Brian bundle is £60! I've got the songs.though & like Tony H-H-Hancock,I'm on an economy drive at the moment! I had a look at the Toccata site,now. A pdf gives you the contents list & VERY tantalising,it is. As well as the aknowledged greats,Brian gives us allot of his thoughts on composers who are only now being re-evaluated through the efforts of the smaller cd labels. Bantock,I notice gets a whole chapter (as do Delius & Elgar)! Foulds,Scott,Sorabji,Holbrooke,Coleridge Taylor,Dyson,Arnold Cooke,Hurlstone,Cowen,McEwen,Walford Davies all get a mention. There's also allot about the BBC!
Xmas,maybe?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on November 10, 2011, 08:36:36 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 10, 2011, 08:25:50 AM
The Brian bundle is £60!

It's down to around £45 if you utilise their Discovery Club option. The freebies that you get with the initial subscription more than pays for the yearly fee (I initially signed up to it when Brian vol.1 came out).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 10, 2011, 08:37:26 AM
Brians journalism appears attractive,because he was an open minded,modest sounding man,with a sense of humour,unlike the authors of some dry as dust tomes I have come across from that era.
Maybe Xmas or the New Year?

Online streaming? You would,presumably,have to pay something of course. I wonder if the British Library Sound Archive will ever do that?

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 10, 2011, 08:38:41 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 10, 2011, 08:06:40 AM

It's not that easy. As an HBS member I can borrow CDs with radio performances from the Recordings Library. You have to pay a deposit and copying is prohibited for copyright reasons. (Martyn, the HBS Webmaster, may correct me if I'm wrong). I wish the HBS would have its Library online, and that performances could be streamed to members. That would really be a 21st century solution. Now it's a hassle.
I don't know much about the HBS and I'm not a member. Are you saying that I could join, pay to borrow the Holmes and send it back? Copying may be "prohibited" by the HBS - they couldn't police this but by making the statement they are covering themselves - but the copy in the HBS isn't their copyright in the first place and they are allowing it into the public domain by lending it out. It's the BBC's recording. All very strange. Surely a paying member can twist an arm or two here? I'd happily make a donation to the HBS if they let me get my hands on it. I promise not to copy it. Honest.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 10, 2011, 08:41:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 10, 2011, 08:06:40 AM

It's not that easy. As an HBS member I can borrow CDs with radio performances from the Recordings Library. You have to pay a deposit and copying is prohibited for copyright reasons. (Martyn, the HBS Webmaster, may correct me if I'm wrong). I wish the HBS would have its Library online, and that performances could be streamed to members. That would really be a 21st century solution. Now it's a hassle.

If they did that,everybody would want to join!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 10, 2011, 08:42:34 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 10, 2011, 08:37:26 AM
Brians journalism appears attractive,because he was an open minded,modest sounding man,with a sense of humour,unlike the authors of some dry as dust tomes I have come across from that era.
Maybe Xmas or the New Year?

Online streaming? You would,presumably,have to pay something of course. I wonder if the British Library Sound Archive will ever do that?
Does Johan know anyone in the European Archive which is based in Holland? I've got loads of their downloads. If they could get a copy of the Aries LP with the Holmes on it the problem would be solved.
http://www.europarchive.org/results.php?query=collection:public_classical_music_BeG
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 10, 2011, 08:46:38 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 10, 2011, 08:42:34 AM
Does Johan know anyone in the European Archive which is based in Holland? I've got loads of their downloads. If they could get a copy of the Aries LP with the Holmes on it the problem would be solved.
http://www.europarchive.org/results.php?query=collection:public_classical_music_BeG

Funnily enough a GMG member and someone I know personally works for the Archive, Rolf den Otter (otterhouse)... But, remember - the Aries recording is pirated and they only upload LPs that are out of copyright...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 10, 2011, 08:49:48 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 10, 2011, 08:46:38 AM


Funnily enough a GMG member and someone I know personally works for the Archive, Rolf den Otter (otterhouse)... But, remember - the Aries recording is pirated and they only upload LPs that are out of copyright...
What a small world. Buy Rolf a couple of pints and bung a few Euros in a plain brown envelope(the Euros will soon be worthless anyway) and see what he can come up with ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 10, 2011, 08:53:55 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 10, 2011, 08:38:41 AM
I don't know much about the HBS and I'm not a member. Are you saying that I could join, pay to borrow the Holmes and send it back? Copying may be "prohibited" by the HBS - they couldn't police this but by making the statement they are covering themselves - but the copy in the HBS isn't their copyright in the first place and they are allowing it into the public domain by lending it out. It's the BBC's recording. All very strange. Surely a paying member can twist an arm or two here? I'd happily make a donation to the HBS if they let me get my hands on it. I promise not to copy it. Honest.

Of course they have to say this,don't they? MY 'source' obviously wasn't too careful & he just sent it,anyway! Of course,there is a STRONG possiblity I got it wrong & it's from somewhere else!!!! :D
As to off air copies. It's your tape,you're cassette recorder (or whatever they use now) & you're time recording it. But if you tape it off the Beeb,it's their property really,however much personal value you might place on it.
I am given to understand they eased up on the home recording laws,recently. Although,obviously if you're into making hundreds of copies or the 21st century answer to the late lamented (gawd bless em!) Aries Pirate Recording Enterprises!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 10, 2011, 08:59:06 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 10, 2011, 08:49:48 AM
What a small world. Buy Rolf a couple of pints and bung a few Euros in a plain brown envelope(the Euros will soon be worthless anyway) and see what he can come up with ;D

:o :o :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 10, 2011, 09:10:58 AM
Any legal suggestions will be most welcome! :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on November 10, 2011, 09:16:26 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 10, 2011, 09:10:58 AM
Any legal suggestions will be most welcome! :D

I will withhold the illegal suggestions until you become really desparate then!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 10, 2011, 10:30:58 AM
(http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/6984/516872128o.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-11-10[IMG]

Dundonnells got one of these? :o
Something else I don't have! :(
He can even buy his nice Grundig TK-14 'brand new' reel to reel albums:

http://www.tapeproject.com (http://www.tapeproject.com)

Maybe,I've got one in my attic? :(  (Behind that Water Cistern,thing!)


Okay,now to order that special lead,for transferring tapes (after the home made chilli con carne's gone down! :o)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 10, 2011, 03:27:21 PM
(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2723/leibowitzbrianaries.jpg)

You've got to love the Disco lighting!
Or maybe,it's an Xmas tree?
A nice place for you're spanking new Havergal Brian Lp.
And then you found Santa delivered a pirate!
HO! HO! HO!

Shiver me bloomin' timbers! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on November 10, 2011, 03:48:22 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 09, 2011, 08:45:00 PM
Say what? ???

[asin]B005Z4D2EW[/asin]

Well, that's odd.  Maybe you used a different search term than I did?
US release date is two weeks after the UK release date, I note.

Also, I've found it on MDT. Pricewise MDT is cheaper than Presto which is cheaper than AmazonUS (I did not do the math to figure out what AmazonUK price works out in USD, but I think it's about the same as MDT), but the differences are small enough that shipping charges and credit card transaction fees and VAT could make a difference (for instance, if I order from Presto it would be part of a larger order, which lessens the impact of the shipping charges considerably, whereas if I order from MDT, it would be only the individual item)--and the prospect that ordering from the UK could mean getting it in the US before the official release date here.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on November 10, 2011, 04:02:10 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 10, 2011, 03:27:21 PM
(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2723/leibowitzbrianaries.jpg)

You've got to love the Disco lighting!
Or maybe,it's an Xmas tree?

I lol'd at that cover - that is definitely a Christmas tree hidden in the bokeh. Occam's Razor forbids me from imagining convoluted scenarios about it being placed on a suspiciously fireside rug-looking towel, on a wall in front of a city scene.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on November 10, 2011, 07:51:44 PM
Y'all will be happy to know that I found some other stuff at MDT and so I ordered the Hyperion Gothic from there along with:

8572641
BRIAN, HAVERGAL Symphonies Nos. 20 & 25, Fantastic Variations on an Old Rhyme. National Symphony Orchestra of Ukraine ( Naxos)

8572014
BRIAN, HAVERGAL Symphonies Nos. 11 & 15. RTE National Symphony Orchestra / Tony Rowe, Adrian Leaper. (Naxos)

CDH55029
HAVERGAL BRIAN Symphony No. 3 BBC Symphony Orchestra / Lionel Friend (Helios )

CDA679712
BRIAN, HAVERGAL Symphony No. 1 The Gothic. BBC National Orchestra of Wales, BBC Concert Orchestra / Martyn Brabbins. (Hyperion)

Also some stuff by guys named Byrd, Martucci and Haydn, but they aren't that important :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on November 10, 2011, 08:53:18 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 10, 2011, 03:48:22 PM
Well, that's odd.  Maybe you used a different search term than I did?

Usually when I want to get specific when searching on Amazon, I type in the last name of the composer and the record label. In this case, the search would look like this: Brian Hyperion. I've been doing business with Amazon for a long time and I've figured out their quirky search engine. It just took some time. Of course, when searching for music, it's good to search under their "music" category instead of "all departments." ;) :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 11, 2011, 05:01:12 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 10, 2011, 04:02:10 PM
I lol'd at that cover - that is definitely a Christmas tree hidden in the bokeh. Occam's Razor forbids me from imagining convoluted scenarios about it being placed on a suspiciously fireside rug-looking towel, on a wall in front of a city scene.
(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2723/leibowitzbrianaries.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-11-10

Yes,it could be anywhere,really! :D And only,the Aries Records 'art dept' could make a Havergal Brian record look like a James Last album!
'Non Stop Brian',anyone? :o

Come to think of it,we allready do! :)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on November 11, 2011, 02:34:41 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 10, 2011, 08:06:40 AMIt's not that easy. As an HBS member I can borrow CDs with radio performances from the Recordings Library. You have to pay a deposit and copying is prohibited for copyright reasons. ... Now it's a hassle.

Tell me about it... the loan period is only a month. By the time a CD reached me, I'd probably be having to put it back in the post almost the same day for it to get back to the UK only several weeks late. No Brian CDs for me. I'd also note that I would be quite happy to actually purchase commercial copies of these works if they were available – but they aren't. (The BBC was incredibly slack about commercially exploiting their treasure trove of recorded music, radio, and television shows until comparatively recently.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 12, 2011, 04:21:56 AM
Of course there would be no loss in quality now,unless you were as bad at making cd-r's as me! ;D With the old cassettes,every copy made was a little inferior to the master copy;not that we,staunch, 'Brianites, minded!

I'm always knocking those Naxos Brian cds. Listening to the Naxos performances of Malcolm Arnold's Symphonies 5 & 6,under Andrew Penny,reminds me that Naxos isn't the problem. Having been 'brought up' on Arnolds rather self indulgent recordings,I'd never realised how good these symphonies really were,until now. Penny takes these scores at quite a crack. This is what a really good insightful conductor can do for a score. Also,these recordings have a spacious quality (fantastic,actually) totally unlike some of those 'boxy'  Brian recordings.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 12, 2011, 05:27:41 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 12, 2011, 04:21:56 AM
Of course there would be no loss in quality now,unless you were as bad at making cd-r's as me! ;D With the old cassettes,every copy made was a little inferior to the master copy;not that we,staunch, 'Brianites, minded!

I'm always knocking those Naxos Brian cds. Listening to the Naxos performances of Malcolm Arnold's Symphonies 5 & 6,under Andrew Penny,reminds me that Naxos isn't the problem. Having been 'brought up' on Arnolds rather self indulgent recordings,I'd never realised how good these symphonies really were,until now. Penny takes these scores at quite a crack. This is what a really good insightful conductor can do for a score. Also,these recordings have a spacious quality (fantastic,actually) totally unlike some of those 'boxy'  Brian recordings.
Naxos is a great label. The Arnold set is superb, especially the 9th. The problem with many of the early Brian Marco Polos is that they were recorded by less famous ensembles in some pretty poor studios/concert halls. To be fair, the sales were always going to be low and it wouldn't have made any commercial sense to do it any other way. Their Bantock Hebridean Symphony is a horrid congested recording but at least they bothered to record it (The Hyperion version with the RPO is in a different league). What Marco Polo/Naxos have done is to widen the CD catalogue substantially at a very fair price. I have most of their releases and I must say that there are very few duds. They've done for CD what CFP and Pye Golden Guinea did for vinyl so fair dos.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on November 13, 2011, 08:22:33 AM
Philip/Johan,

Imagine the time when the HBS used to loan out reel-to-reel tapes rather than CDs! That's how it was when I joined in 1980. However, we are indeed moving with the times; as you'll see when the website is updated.

John,

We would welcome you into the HBS with open arms! You'd even see your own article which you sent me in the Newsletter in the new year, when there will be a LSSO/Unicorn retrospective.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 13, 2011, 08:25:00 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on November 13, 2011, 08:22:33 AM
Philip/Johan,

Imagine the time when the HBS used to loan out reel-to-reel tapes rather than CDs! That's how it was when I joined in 1980. However, we are indeed moving with the times; as you'll see when the website is updated.

Sounds interesting, Martyn!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 13, 2011, 08:49:06 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on November 13, 2011, 08:22:33 AM
Philip/Johan,

Imagine the time when the HBS used to loan out reel-to-reel tapes rather than CDs! That's how it was when I joined in 1980. However, we are indeed moving with the times; as you'll see when the website is updated.

John,

We would welcome you into the HBS with open arms! You'd even see your own article which you sent me in the Newsletter in the new year, when there will be a LSSO/Unicorn retrospective.

;)
I'm getting mixed messages here. Johan told me I wasn't bonkers enough to join the HBS :D You say I would be very welcome. Which is it? I might just join. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on November 13, 2011, 08:53:03 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 13, 2011, 08:49:06 AM
I'm getting mixed messages here. Johan told me I wasn't bonkers ebnough to join the HBS :D You say I would be very welcome. Which is it? I might just join. Thoughts?

Several of us should join. We need to bring varieties of hair colors to the organization.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 13, 2011, 09:15:04 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 13, 2011, 08:49:06 AM
I'm getting mixed messages here. Johan told me I wasn't bonkers enough to join the HBS :D You say I would be very welcome. Which is it? I might just join. Thoughts?


Bonkers enough about Brian, that is (I implied that very strongly!)  ;D But do join!


Quote from: springrite on November 13, 2011, 08:53:03 AM
Several of us should join. We need to bring varieties of hair colors to the organization.


So say all of us.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on November 13, 2011, 09:47:52 AM
To paraphrase an old saying, "you don't have to be bonkers - but it helps!". And with 'the release' now only fifteen days away, the level of bonkeredness will be ratcheting up. Special prices for members... newsletters... technological developments in the website department... what more could you wish for?

8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 14, 2011, 12:52:57 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on November 13, 2011, 09:47:52 AM
To paraphrase an old saying, "you don't have to be bonkers - but it helps!". And with 'the release' now only fifteen days away, the level of bonkeredness will be ratcheting up. Special prices for members... newsletters... technological developments in the website department... what more could you wish for?

8)
Go on then. How do I sign up for this loony organisation? I simply can't resist any longer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 14, 2011, 01:01:07 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 14, 2011, 12:52:57 AM
Go on then. How do I sign up for this loony organisation? I simply can't resist any longer.


Morning, John! I don't know if Martyn will be here soon, so I'll help... Here is the order form with all relevant information.
Welcome aboard!


http://www.havergalbrian.org/members/orderformOCT11.pdf (http://www.havergalbrian.org/members/orderformOCT11.pdf)


As you can see, you can opt for the Newsletter in digital form, which has three advantages - you get it quickly, it's in colour and it saves the Society money...


(I don't know whether you get a discount because 2011 is almost over, or whether the subscription lasts until November 2012. Martyn will undoubtedly answer that question!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 14, 2011, 01:19:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 14, 2011, 01:01:07 AM

Morning, John! I don't know if Martyn will be here soon, so I'll help... Here is the order form with all relevant information.
Welcome aboard!


http://www.havergalbrian.org/members/orderformOCT11.pdf (http://www.havergalbrian.org/members/orderformOCT11.pdf)


As you can see, you can opt for the Newsletter in digital form, which has three advantages - you get it quickly, it's in colour and it saves the Society money...


(I don't know whether you get a discount because 2011 is almost over, or whether the subscription lasts until November 2012. Martyn will undoubtedly answer that question!)
I'll give it a go. I seem to have totally lost the plot. I will also join the Khachaturian society after lunch and maybe the Hovhaness society later tonight. Time for my medication nurse.........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 14, 2011, 01:26:11 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 14, 2011, 01:19:25 AM
I'll give it a go. I seem to have totally lost the plot. I will also join the Khachaturian society after lunch and maybe the Hovhaness society later tonight. Time for my medication nurse.........


I'll leave Aram and Alan to you.  ;D Btw, 'Hovhannes' is Armenian for John, so he, too, has a surname which is a first name, like Brian...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 14, 2011, 01:28:35 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 14, 2011, 01:19:25 AM
I'll give it a go. I seem to have totally lost the plot. I will also join the Khachaturian society after lunch and maybe the Hovhaness society later tonight. Time for my medication nurse.........
Just paid my 12 quid via Paypal. I hope I don't get bullied for joining. I might have to keep it secret. Some people in Oldham can be very cruel. :D My wife is a member of the UK Johnny Mathis society. He's even worse than Khachaturian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 14, 2011, 01:30:18 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 14, 2011, 01:28:35 AM
Just paid my 12 quid via Paypal. I hope I don't get bullied for joining. I might have to keep it secret. Some people in Oldham can be very cruel. :D My wife is a member of the UK Johnny Mathis society. He's even worse than Khachaturian.


You can always join the BA... Brianites Anonymous.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on November 14, 2011, 02:19:06 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 14, 2011, 01:28:35 AMSome people in Oldham can be very cruel. :D

If it's still there, just wander past Yates's Wine Lodge on Yorkshire Street around 11.30 on a Friday night...

(http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/34/2007/11/medium_DrunkenFB-thumb.jpg)

and all she did was try and start an amicable debate as to whether Ralph Holmes or Marat Bisengaliev was the superior interpreter.

:o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 14, 2011, 02:35:28 AM
Quote from: Albion on November 14, 2011, 02:19:06 AM
If it's still there, just wander past Yates's Wine Lodge on Yorkshire Street around 11.30 on a Friday night...

(http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/34/2007/11/medium_DrunkenFB-thumb.jpg)

and all she did was try and start an amicable debate as to whether Ralph Holmes or Marat Bisengaliev was the superior interpreter.

:o
Are you kidding. Yorkshire Street after dark? It's like the wild west. To be charitable to the young lady ( :'( !!) in the trolley, she's just listened to Brian 4. This is how it can affect some people.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on November 14, 2011, 03:42:26 AM
John,
As another old saying goes, 'You have mail...'

Welcome to the HBS! I'll help you with the arcane ins-and-outs of subscriptions in the fullness of time: I've paid by direct debit for so many years now that I lose track of what and when; it's either a rolling year from joining, or year-end but I'll confirm.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 14, 2011, 07:52:45 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 14, 2011, 01:26:11 AM

I'll leave Aram and Alan to you.  ;D Btw, 'Hovhannes' is Armenian for John, so he, too, has a surname which is a first name, like Brian...
Are you telling me that my name is Hovhaness Whitmore? Has a certain ring to it :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 14, 2011, 09:11:52 AM
Hovhaness Whitmore? Very snappy!
A bit like listening to all 67 (?) Hovhaness symphonies in a row! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 14, 2011, 10:25:03 AM
An hour ago on Twitter:


Guy Ritchie, Havergal Brian, Harrison Birtwistle among today's additions. Learn how to pronounce these and other names: hearnames.com



When you go to the site, you see Brian listed among 'Famous English People', rubbing shoulders with Gary Lineker, Harold Shipman and Helena Bonham Carter...


Pronunciation:


http://www.hearnames.com/pronunciations/search/Havergal+Brian.html (http://www.hearnames.com/pronunciations/search/Havergal+Brian.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 14, 2011, 10:42:30 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 14, 2011, 10:25:03 AM
An hour ago on Twitter:


Guy Ritchie, Havergal Brian, Harrison Birtwistle among today's additions. Learn how to pronounce these and other names: hearnames.com



When you go to the site, you see Brian listed among 'Famous English People', rubbing shoulders with Gary Lineker, Harold Shipman and Helena Bonham Carter...


Pronunciation:


http://www.hearnames.com/pronunciations/search/Havergal+Brian.html (http://www.hearnames.com/pronunciations/search/Havergal+Brian.html)
Gary Lineker, one of Leicester's finest. Truly world class. Harold Shipman was a very naughty boy though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on November 14, 2011, 07:09:22 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 14, 2011, 10:42:30 AM
Gary Lineker, one of Leicester's finest. Truly world class. Harold Shipman was a very naughty boy though.

Who are they? Unlike Ms. Carter, their fame has not made it across the pond (or at least made it to the neck of the woods which I have it.

But it was only yesterday that I learned, courtesy of CPO, that some people actually still use Ingolf  as a first name. (Ingolf Turban--he's a violinist.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 15, 2011, 02:30:01 AM
That's not cricket,gentlemen! :o


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 15, 2011, 02:35:32 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 15, 2011, 02:30:01 AM
That's not cricket,gentlemen! :o


No, in the case of Lineker it's football, in the case of Shipman it's murder... I find it rather strange that Harold Shipman should be 'famous'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 15, 2011, 03:01:26 AM
With due respect to John,footballs murder as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather listen to Das Siegeslied! ;D As to Shipman. I think the term 'notorious' is more appropriate! :o

I wonder if Havergal Brian is well known enough to be called famous? He's certainly famous here,(on this thread) but I'm not sure whether he is merely celebrated,elsewhere?
The Gothic,on the other hand IS quite famous. Maybe,even more famous than Brian himself? Or is it's 'fame' merely one of celebrity or notoriety?

I notice that on the cheerful 'Find a grave' website,you can actually 'vote' how famous you think a deceased person was. I'm not sure HB is there (I haven't looked yet!).

Not that it matters really,of course!
Havergal Brian,fortunately,never got to front any Potato Crisp campaigns & I rather doubt he'd have wanted to. But,as we all know here,he did get a posthumous bus!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 15, 2011, 03:03:54 AM
I have left several messages on 'Find a grave' (Delius, Korngold, Langgaard). Brian was cremated, iirc...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 15, 2011, 05:27:04 AM
Of course. It,sort of,fits in with his philosophy. He was an atheist,wasn't he (?). Of course it's cheaper too! When my time comes,there won't be any nice slate (or black marble) for me!!! Not that I'll be worrying about it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 15, 2011, 05:28:41 AM
I'll have a state funeral.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 15, 2011, 05:32:10 AM
Well that puts in my place! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 15, 2011, 05:33:01 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 15, 2011, 05:40:33 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 15, 2011, 05:28:41 AM
I'll have a state funeral.
The mourners will all say,"Johan looks a right state."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 15, 2011, 05:41:42 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 15, 2011, 05:40:33 AM
The mourners will all say,"Johan looks a right state."


I can live with that. Better dead than alive!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on November 15, 2011, 06:07:29 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 15, 2011, 02:35:32 AM
No, in the case of Lineker it's football, in the case of Shipman it's murder... I find it rather strange that Harold Shipman should be 'famous'.

Eep, I was attending a health and safety course at my local hospital earlier today and he was mentioned during one of the presentations. This makes two times now - maybe a third and he will appear in my bathroom mirror to drag me into the other-world? :P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 15, 2011, 06:08:16 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 15, 2011, 06:07:29 AM
Eep, I was attending a health and safety course at my local hospital earlier today and he was mentioned during one of the presentations. This makes two times now - maybe a third and he will appear in my bathroom mirror to drag me into the other-world? :P


He's behind you now.  :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 16, 2011, 02:36:58 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 15, 2011, 06:08:16 AM

He's behind you now.  :o
Is it safe to come out yet?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 16, 2011, 02:38:08 AM
* looking * Yes, coast clear.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 16, 2011, 03:49:01 AM
Nice price on Amazon for a pre order 'Hyperion Gothic'. This should meet my quota nicely. I have resisted downloading the Toccata Vol 2 in favour of the old fashioned cd format. (This from someone who recently bought s/h musicassettes (remember them?) of Handel oratorio's & Rossini opera's,from a very nice seller on ebay! And I MIGHT buy some more! ;D) So I won't have it until December 5th! :o Although,I heard the bits broadcast on R3 (thanks to your reminder,Johan!) :)
And then there are the complete songs in the pipeline. (It will be a bit strange listening to 'someone else' singing them,of course!) I just wonder what else is in store,Brian wise, for 2012? It could be a bumper year?
But I mustn't speak too soon! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 16, 2011, 03:55:54 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 16, 2011, 03:49:01 AM
It could be a bumper year?
But I mustn't speak too soon! :(


Indeed. Bumper and bummer are quite near to each other...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 16, 2011, 04:09:17 AM
Disturbingly! Of course,just because I'm hoping for a flurry of world premiere recordings,a brand new state of the art recording of the 3rd symphony and the Sinfonia Tragica at the next Prom season,doesn't REALLY mean that the entire course of 2012 will mysteriously alter just to spoil things for me (us!). :o

I hope? :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 16, 2011, 05:25:50 AM
The HBS is planning (a) concert(s), because next year will be the 30th anniversary of Brian's death. We don't know the details yet...


Nice Mondrian avatar!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 16, 2011, 06:03:51 AM
Thank you! I hope the concert/s go well.
I have placed my Amazon pre-order for the Hyperion Gothic,just now. Maybe,I'm expecting too much,but it would be rather nice if some really spectacular sales encouraged Hyperion to do more Brian. But I'm not sure they're THAT interested. Chandos are another one. I may be wrong,but I believe the only Brian they have ever recorded is the brief,but very arresting,'Festival Fanfare'. It doesn't last long,but it certainly grabs you!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on November 16, 2011, 07:52:29 AM
Well, the "bundle" arrived, and it was better value than I had suspected - volume 1 was hardback which upgrades my other copy. I also got volume 2 of the new series at the same time, which I'm ripping in a mo'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 16, 2011, 07:58:58 AM
Excellent, Sara! I wonder what you think of the operatic Brian...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: thranx on November 16, 2011, 01:39:58 PM
Quote from: Albion on November 14, 2011, 02:19:06 AM
If it's still there, just wander past Yates's Wine Lodge on Yorkshire Street around 11.30 on a Friday night...

(http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/34/2007/11/medium_DrunkenFB-thumb.jpg)

and all she did was try and start an amicable debate as to whether Ralph Holmes or Marat Bisengaliev was the superior interpreter.

I realize the stock tends to differ between U.S. and U.K. markets, but really....
Where's the UPC symbol?

:o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on November 16, 2011, 04:26:07 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 16, 2011, 05:25:50 AMThe HBS is planning (a) concert(s), because next year will be the 30th anniversary of Brian's death. We don't know the details yet...

I suppose it would be nice to have an entire decade shaved off my age, but sharing my birth year with Brian's parting compels me to point out that it will be forty years since both of those events, next year...

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 16, 2011, 10:07:24 PM
How time flies when you're enjoying yourself... Yes, it's 40 years. I think I must have had my first senior moment.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 17, 2011, 01:24:33 PM
A somewhat juvenile chat about symphonies on BBC radio 3 earlier:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017596y

Lots of very positive oohs and aahs about the Gothic and an inventive naming of Brian as the british Berlioz ??? but that's okay in my book.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 17, 2011, 02:21:10 PM
Quote from: Hattoff on November 17, 2011, 01:24:33 PM
A somewhat juvenile chat about symphonies on BBC radio 3 earlier:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017596y (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017596y)

Lots of very positive oohs and aahs about the Gothic and an inventive naming of Brian as the british Berlioz ??? but that's okay in my book.


Thanks, Steve!


Just listened. I like Sue Perkins generally (as a comedienne). She did seem to love what she heard of The Gothic. 'That's okay in my book', too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Philip Legge on November 17, 2011, 06:52:17 PM
Aside from sharing initials, both HBs were fiery redheads in their youth. Need one point out that the French still tend to look down their nose at Hector, two centuries after the fact?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on November 17, 2011, 07:58:42 PM
Quote from: Philip Legge on November 17, 2011, 06:52:17 PM
Aside from sharing initials, both HBs were fiery redheads in their youth. Need one point out that the French still tend to look down their nose at Hector, two centuries after the fact?

Well, that doesn't mean much.  Looking down their nose at someone seems to be the default position for the French.

(Takes cover in anticipation of a barrage of Francophone missiles).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 17, 2011, 10:23:43 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 17, 2011, 07:58:42 PM
Well, that doesn't mean much.  Looking down their nose at someone seems to be the default position for the French.

Except for Sarkozy, who is simply too small.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 17, 2011, 11:27:50 PM
And, I thought his wife was Amazonian! A shame, that.

Super Kins is good too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 18, 2011, 12:08:30 PM
A 'review' of the second Toccata CD:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/nov/17/brian-music-from-operas-review (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/nov/17/brian-music-from-operas-review)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on November 18, 2011, 12:30:45 PM
I can understand having to write a review on the quick, as it's low-paid work after all, but cliches such as 'striking moments' could be written without even listening to the disc in question. It whiffs of the tried and tested "if in doubt, rate three stars" method that a reviewer might hide behind in substitute for having real opinions on their work, enabling them to look critical enough to be mistaken for an authority on the issue in question.

What is the value of a striking idea without an individual manner of expressing it - something which Brian could hardly be claimed to lack. And also, Brian's composition style, generic? That is one of the last words its detractors should be throwing at it. I tried to find a single useful sentence, and failed. As one who already likes the composer, this is no problem, but surely half the point of reviews of this kind in a major periodical are to attract the attention of the neutral parties - which this rather pointless review certainly will not. Even a negative, but well-founded one would be better.

</nerd_rage>

I have yet to offer my feedback on the disc because as with all HB ones I don't feel particularly able to speak about the music until I've given it several plays. My small brain cannot compute it all at once ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 18, 2011, 12:41:29 PM
Thanks, Sara. I have added a comment on the Guardian website - Clements didn't even have the decency to read Malcolm MacDonald's ample notes. The Prologue of The Tigers, for instance, consists for the most part of the Kelly Variations, so his supposition that directors avoid staging Brian's operas because they wouldn't know what to do scenically is just so much tosh.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on November 18, 2011, 12:56:06 PM
And that 'recommend' comes from me  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 18, 2011, 12:58:16 PM
Good man!  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on November 18, 2011, 01:30:46 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 18, 2011, 12:41:29 PMThanks, Sara. I have added a comment on the Guardian website - Clements didn't even have the decency to read Malcolm MacDonald's ample notes. The Prologue of The Tigers, for instance, consists for the most part of the Kelly Variations, so his supposition that directors avoid staging Brian's operas because they wouldn't know what to do scenically is just so much tosh.

Yep, typical lazy old Clements dashing off another superficial review. If he'd bothered to find out anything about what he was listening to (perhaps by going to the superhuman effort of extracting the booklet from the case) he'd realise that the idea of 40 minutes of Turandot when not a note is sung is a fallacy, as both Brian and Macdonald simply extracted vocal parts and effectively added instrumental cues where appropriate.

???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 18, 2011, 01:50:57 PM
Dreadful! He didn't even know what the hell he was talking about. Unbelievably lazy. He should be ashamed of himself.
  Andrew Clements is one of my least favourite critics,anyway. He never says anything even remotedly interesting & I'm not just saying that because he doesn't share my own personal enthusiasms. He just isn't an interesting read. At least the dreaded (and pretty dreadful!) Hurwitz sometimes has something reasonably intelligent to say in between all those,frankly laughable,rants! And to be fair to Hurwitz,the otherwise splendid,IRR Magazine (I get it every month) can be a bit too,uniformly,nice,at times! Having said that,I still prefer IRR,any day, to a Hurwitz rant! ;D In fact,I would go so far as to describe IRR Magazine as commendable. What a difference!
  Quite frankly,all things considered,the Prologue to 'The Tiger's' is pretty action packed. What with a bank holiday going on,stall holders,a town crier and a man on a bloomin' elephant I can't see an audience gawping at an empty stage for very long! But of course,old clever clogs Clements doesn't know about that,does he?

 


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 18, 2011, 02:01:05 PM
The point about IRR being "too, uniformly, nice at times"..........

in order to be able to devote the column inches it does to each review IRR quite deliberately, consciously and explicitly makes no attempt to review every single cd which is issued each month. I get the impression that if a cd performance is particularly ordinary, average, run-of-the-mill then it just doesn't get reviewed in IRR.

Now this is a pretty wide generalisation but I do think that the magazine does try to weed out the tosh ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 18, 2011, 02:03:33 PM
.....but ANYWAY....surely the Guardian review MUST be accurate??

It is a good, liberal, intellectual newspaper isn't it?   Not like the right-wing claptrap you get in the newspapers I buy ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 18, 2011, 02:10:22 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 18, 2011, 02:01:05 PM
The point about IRR being "too, uniformly, nice at times"..........

in order to be able to devote the column inches it does to each review IRR quite deliberately, consciously and explicitly makes no attempt to review every single cd which is issued each month. I get the impression that if a cd performance is particularly ordinary, average, run-of-the-mill then it just doesn't get reviewed in IRR.

Now this is a pretty wide generalisation but I do think that the magazine does try to weed out the tosh ;D ;D

A rave review of symphonies by a certain pianistically inclined composer,included! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 18, 2011, 02:12:14 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 18, 2011, 02:03:33 PM
.....but ANYWAY....surely the Guardian review MUST be accurate??

It is a good, liberal, intellectual newspaper isn't it?   Not like the right-wing claptrap you get in the newspapers I buy ;D ;D


Every newspaper has its fair share of stupid contributions, The Guardian not excepted.  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on November 18, 2011, 02:12:51 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 18, 2011, 02:03:33 PM
.....but ANYWAY....surely the Guardian review MUST be accurate??

It is a good, liberal, intellectual newspaper isn't it?   Not like the right-wing claptrap you get in the newspapers I buy ;D ;D

I think that nowadays arts coverage in newspapers is a case of keeping up appearances. Most readers will never be able to tell whether the emperor is wearing no clothes :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 18, 2011, 02:13:41 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 18, 2011, 02:12:51 PM
I think that nowadays arts coverage in newspapers is a case of keeping up appearances. Most readers will never be able to tell whether the emperor is wearing no clothes :(


True that.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 18, 2011, 02:14:50 PM
Let's just remember 'The Guardian' granted an entire editorial to the 'Gothic'!
Fair play! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 18, 2011, 02:16:17 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 18, 2011, 02:14:50 PM
Let's just remember 'The Guardian' granted an entire editorial to the 'Gothic'!
Fair play! ;D


That was before Clements panned it.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 18, 2011, 02:20:56 PM
I'll (frying) pan HIM! >:(

Can't believe I was actually threatening to hit Andrew Clements on the head with a frying pan!
Fair play,the dreaded (dreadful?) Hurwitz has never made me feel like that! Not even that infamous review about Brian admirers having goitre,poxes,hare lips & Benjamin Franklin style hair (like Michael Foot?):

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=8010 (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=8010)

I haven't even got a frying pan. As if to add insult to injury,I'd actually have to buy one to hit him with! :o


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 18, 2011, 03:28:40 PM
 :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 19, 2011, 12:43:19 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 18, 2011, 02:12:51 PM
I think that nowadays arts coverage in newspapers is a case of keeping up appearances. Most readers will never be able to tell whether the emperor is wearing no clothes :(
I can't find a review in The Sun.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 19, 2011, 12:58:34 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 18, 2011, 12:08:30 PM
A 'review' of the second Toccata CD:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/nov/17/brian-music-from-operas-review (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/nov/17/brian-music-from-operas-review)
This is a disc of orchestral music so the stuff about opera is of no use to people who might be interested in buying the CD. I find Brian very hit and miss but at least I try to explain why this is my view. I don't dismiss him. I just have doubts about some of the music's quality. I have similar doubts about many composers, not just Brian. I don't criticise out of spite, malice or say things without actually listening to the music. It's just what I feel. The reviewer here doesn't attempt to tell the public what the music sounds like, what the general style is, what the recording quality sounds like (close, multi mic, concert hall etc) or give any sort of detail about the standard of orchestral playing. It isn't really a review so it's rather pointless. Why couldn't he at least say that the Kelly variations are great fun, melodic and interesting? That would at least add some worth to the "review".
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 19, 2011, 02:22:33 AM
Andrew Clements review COULD have been SO MUCH worse! :o

(http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6163/scan10006.jpg)

NB: He liked THE music (when he remembered it)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on November 19, 2011, 02:29:54 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 18, 2011, 02:20:56 PMto hit Andrew Clements on the head with a frying pan [...] I'd actually have to buy one :o

I've set up a charity account so members can gift-aid their contributions - all in a good cause!

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 19, 2011, 02:31:31 AM
A teflon pan would be kinder.It won't stick! ;D
But will they be able to raise enough money to cure my pox,hare lip and goitre? :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 19, 2011, 02:51:34 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 19, 2011, 02:22:33 AM
Andrew Clements review COULD have been SO MUCH worse! :o

(http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/6163/scan10006.jpg)

NB: He liked THE music (when he remembered it)!


Ah, the (in)famous Hurwitz review. I don't think I fit the profile.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on November 19, 2011, 09:14:55 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 19, 2011, 02:31:31 AMBut will they be able to raise enough money to cure my pox,hare lip and goitre? :o

Sorry, we all have our crosses to bear.

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 19, 2011, 10:55:36 AM
It's a hard life! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on November 19, 2011, 11:07:07 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 18, 2011, 02:03:33 PM
.....but ANYWAY....surely the Guardian review MUST be accurate??

It is a good, liberal, intellectual newspaper isn't it?   Not like the right-wing claptrap you get in the newspapers I buy ;D ;D

I'm a loyal Guardian reader! Can we campaign to get me their music critic job?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 19, 2011, 11:11:27 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 19, 2011, 11:07:07 AM
I'm a loyal Guardian reader! Can we campaign to get me their music critic job?


You get my vote!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on November 19, 2011, 11:14:27 AM
Quote from: Brian on November 19, 2011, 11:07:07 AM
I'm a loyal Guardian reader! Can we campaign to get me their music critic job?

I think that being unable to adhere to their evident schedule of 1 CD review per 30 mins may be your downfall in this mission ;) Perhaps PaulB could give it a shot...?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 19, 2011, 01:45:54 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 19, 2011, 11:07:07 AM
I'm a loyal Guardian reader! Can we campaign to get me their music critic job?

If you get the job I shall promise to switch newspapers and start buying the G********* ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on November 19, 2011, 01:48:48 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 19, 2011, 11:14:27 AM
I think that being unable to adhere to their evident schedule of 1 CD review per 30 mins may be your downfall in this mission ;) Perhaps PaulB could give it a shot...?

Alas, my current average for MW is about 1 per week. On the other hand, my word count is about 5 times that guy's... heck, the upcoming Hyperion Gothic review is already at 3,038 words, but you just know Clements is going to give it 3 paragraphs and 3 stars. (Another reason I don't write for Hurwitz. ;) )

Colin: that bad, eh!?  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 19, 2011, 02:11:42 PM
No, no....YOU would be worth reading and therefore worth buying the Guardian for(even if I can't stomach its politics ;D ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on November 19, 2011, 02:21:30 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 19, 2011, 02:11:42 PM
No, no....YOU would be worth reading and therefore worth buying the Guardian for(even if I can't stomach its politics ;D ;D)

Why thank you - but I meant that bad that you would write its name as G********!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 19, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
Och...it's just an example of British hyperbolic over-reaction..............(can you have a "hyperbolic over-reaction" ??? ::) :o)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on November 19, 2011, 03:10:36 PM
You Brits can have your hyperbolic over-reactions if we Americans can keep being misunderestimated! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on November 19, 2011, 03:13:11 PM
Can't we all just get along (and buy the Independant)? :'(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on November 19, 2011, 03:30:22 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 19, 2011, 03:13:11 PM
Can't we all just get along (and buy the Independent)? :'(

Love that paper too. But if Colin doesn't like the Guardian's politics...!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on November 19, 2011, 03:41:04 PM
Hmm, I may admittedly be missing much by not be making side by side comparisons, but my general feeling is that the Independent and the Times are the only papers that don't leave me feeling like I'm reading a political mouthpiece. They have their skews, but both seem to feel an obligation to give the other side a showing as well. This is all the more remarkable considering the Times' owner.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on November 19, 2011, 03:49:35 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 19, 2011, 03:41:04 PM
Hmm, I may admittedly be missing much by not be making side by side comparisons, but my general feeling is that the Independent and the Times are the only papers that don't leave me feeling like I'm reading a political mouthpiece. They have their skews, but both seem to feel an obligation to give the other side a showing as well. This is all the more remarkable considering the Times' owner.

I happen to agree that the Independent is remarkably well-done and shows a degree of editorial restraint and poise, but I also think that a lot of the time it makes the Guardian look conservative. Maybe that was my one-year-there limited experience reading them, though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: not edward on November 19, 2011, 04:58:19 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 19, 2011, 03:49:35 PM
I happen to agree that the Independent is remarkably well-done and shows a degree of editorial restraint and poise, but I also think that a lot of the time it makes the Guardian look conservative. Maybe that was my one-year-there limited experience reading them, though.
I don't think that's entirely unfair; however the advantage the Independent always had was that when they had editorial writing of a conservative bent they seemed to look towards the more intelligent conservatives, whereas when the Guardian brought conservative writing in it seemed to me they were doing it mostly to enrage their readers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 19, 2011, 10:55:56 PM
Returning to HB, I wonder which newspaper he read... He died too early for The Independent, the name suits him. The Daily Symphograph would be appropriate, too!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on November 20, 2011, 02:06:14 AM
I always thought that he read the Daily Mail, at least to some degree, when it wasn't quite the foul rag it is now, and there was less choice and less information about and...I'm searching for reasons to excuse him! I only think this because I remember reading somewhere in Macdonald or maybe Nettel (or both) something to suggest that he had read articles in that paper.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dax on November 20, 2011, 03:24:15 AM
With regard to the "hugely impressive" Andrew Clements, members may be interested in

http://ded.increpare.com/~locus/Clements.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on November 20, 2011, 04:11:13 AM
Quote from: Dax on November 20, 2011, 03:24:15 AM
With regard to the "hugely impressive" Andrew Clements, members may be interested in

http://ded.increpare.com/~locus/Clements.html

Absolutely fantastic!

???

Clements is now collecting his P45.

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 20, 2011, 04:13:05 AM
Quote from: Dax on November 20, 2011, 03:24:15 AM
With regard to the "hugely impressive" Andrew Clements, members may be interested in

http://ded.increpare.com/~locus/Clements.html (http://ded.increpare.com/~locus/Clements.html)


:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on November 20, 2011, 06:10:17 AM
I've been reading Vol.2 of Brian's journalism recently - such fun! Even when he's making facual mistakes, his understanding of the subjects he speaks on continually offers fascinating observations, often unnoticed or underplayed by others. His focus on the emotional side of Schoenberg's middle and late works has an almost savant-like intuition. I see a lot of supporters of musical modernism trying to underplay the difficulties of the individual techniques involved in the compositions, but when Brian outright ignores such things he genuinely feels this to be true - it's not just an intellectual or pedantic point to him.

Quote from: Dax on November 20, 2011, 03:24:15 AM
With regard to the "hugely impressive" Andrew Clements, members may be interested in

http://ded.increpare.com/~locus/Clements.html

:)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 20, 2011, 07:07:18 AM
Ann,unlike certain 'music critics',he knew what he was talking about! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 20, 2011, 09:03:42 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 19, 2011, 10:55:56 PM
Returning to HB, I wonder which newspaper he read... He died too early for The Independent, the name suits him. The Daily Symphograph would be appropriate, too!
I believe he was very keen on the Leicester Mercury and the Shoreham Gazette.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on November 20, 2011, 09:08:13 AM
Sea Pictures, a voluntarily picayune work by the keenly fanatical Elgar, was performed yesterday evening by the nearly complete Alice Coote.

Five Stars.

________

Ave atque vale, a knottily sable piece by the limply gusty Havergal Brian, was played yesterday evening by the kookily tame Garry Walker.

Two stars.


later version, revised after editorial intervention -

The woefully absent Ave atque vale, by the rudely slimy Havergal Brian, was performed last night in a viciously marked manner by Garry Walker.

Five Stars.

________

Under the Moon of Love, a frankly flaky piece by the deeply disgusted Showaddywaddy, was played yesterday evening by the positively mindless Monteverdi Choir.

Three stars.

________

Hours of fun for all the family!

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 20, 2011, 09:32:47 AM
Especially Showaddywaddy.
Four stars when danced by Pans People!
With the volume turned down,of course! :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on November 20, 2011, 09:45:33 AM
My first attempt:


(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/red/blue_pics/2008/09/11/andrew_clements.jpg)
The lightly bawdy Loofah McQuary performed a work by the doubtfully troubled Donadio Abattoir last night, the perfectly blushing Spinach Concerto.
Two stars.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on November 20, 2011, 09:48:00 AM
Nothing worse than a limp rendition of the Spinach Concerto :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 20, 2011, 02:34:28 PM
And we all know what happened to Popeye! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on November 20, 2011, 02:53:54 PM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 20, 2011, 09:48:00 AM
Nothing worse than a limp rendition of the Spinach Concerto :)

A bitter work, especially if it is stretched out and the playing is overheated.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 21, 2011, 01:34:13 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 20, 2011, 09:32:47 AM
Especially Showaddywaddy.
Four stars when danced by Pans People!
With the volume turned down,of course! :D
Showaddywaddy. Leicester's finest.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 21, 2011, 03:15:35 AM
I hope we're off Spinach now. It's green,contains iron & Popeye ate it,that's all I know. I'm much better on broccoli! :)
By the way,Showaddywaddy and Spinach? If the last two pages of this thread was one of you're first encounters with 'Brianites' you'd be scratching you're head.
Of course,it's Andrew Clements fault!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on November 21, 2011, 06:01:33 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 20, 2011, 09:48:00 AM
Nothing worse than a limp rendition of the Spinach Concerto :)

Hmm... so THIS is how the Brian Thread manages to stay at the top?! ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 21, 2011, 08:27:42 AM
Well,Havergal Brian probably ate some spinach,so,if he DID,there is a connection there,somewhere! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 21, 2011, 11:08:03 AM
A rave review for the Hyperion release of the 'Gothic Symphony' from Musicweb:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Nov11/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Nov11/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm)

Hope the link works for anyone who hasn't seen it. I'm a 'beginner' at this kind of thing! :( 
No mention of spinach,I'm afraid, :( but it's the 'Recording of the Month'!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 21, 2011, 12:30:15 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 21, 2011, 11:08:03 AM
A rave review for the Hyperion release of the 'Gothic Symphony' from Musicweb:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Nov11/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Nov11/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm)

Hope the link works for anyone who hasn't seen it. I'm a 'beginner' at this kind of thing! :( 
No mention of spinach,I'm afraid, :( but it's the 'Recording of the Month'!


It works.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 22, 2011, 01:26:41 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 21, 2011, 11:08:03 AM
A rave review for the Hyperion release of the 'Gothic Symphony' from Musicweb:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Nov11/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Nov11/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm)

Hope the link works for anyone who hasn't seen it. I'm a 'beginner' at this kind of thing! :( 
No mention of spinach,I'm afraid, :( but it's the 'Recording of the Month'!
A very good review indeed. The only negative comment was the sleeve. The only thing left for me is an answer to the question - how does it compare sonically with the live radio relay and have the fluffs and dropped mutes been eliminated by patching from the rehearsal tapes? In other words do I stick with what I've already got (perfectly fine) or do I shell out a few bob for an improved product. By the way, I think I'm right in saying that the fiddle solos are played by the BBC NOW leader.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 22, 2011, 02:12:30 AM
Rob Barnett likes to rave, so nothing new there...  ;) Still, I like his review. Though I am with John that I'd dearly want to know if they have ironed out any of the blemishes that occurred on the night.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on November 22, 2011, 02:42:30 AM
The BBC NOW's Lesley Hatfield indeed; there will be an interview with her in the next HBS Newsletter.

Rumour has it that there has been some technical wizardry, so I waiting with bated breath and barely-contained enthusiasm for release day.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 22, 2011, 02:57:31 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on November 22, 2011, 02:42:30 AM
Rumour has it that there has been some technical wizardry


:o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on November 22, 2011, 03:14:21 AM
Hmm, that was quite Harry-Potteresque, wasn't it!

6 days and counting...

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 22, 2011, 03:44:32 AM
Havergal Hufflepuff... But let's not go there.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 22, 2011, 04:35:47 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 22, 2011, 02:12:30 AM
Rob Barnett likes to rave, so nothing new there...  ;) Still, I like his review. Though I am with John that I'd dearly want to know if they have ironed out any of the blemishes that occurred on the night.
I tried to iron an LP once. It melted. Luckily it was Brian 4. :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 22, 2011, 04:38:29 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 22, 2011, 04:35:47 AM
I tried to iron an LP once. It melted. Luckily it was Brian 4. :D


"Still harping on my Siegeslied" (Polonius, Hamlet)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 22, 2011, 05:32:20 AM
Rob Barnett likes to rave? I can just imagine him out in a field,in the middle of nowhere,with a bottle of wkd and the old house music booming! ;D
  While Rob Barnetts reviews are usually interesting & let's face it he was going on about people like Bantock,Bate,and other such neglected figures years ago,when most people weren't interested;he does tend to get a little carried away with his enthusiam,now and again, eg Holbrooke's 'Ulalume' has a 'much stronger lyrical vein than Rachmaninov's 'Isle of the Dead'! Hm! I don't think so! :o

As to 'Das Siegeslied'. I must admit to preferring the York B**** jokes,meself! ;D :o

NB: Just noticed I have now notched 1,005 posts. Also,I have now been reclassified as a 'veteran'! :o :o :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 22, 2011, 05:51:51 AM
Ok.that does it,I'm off to the old people's day centre!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 22, 2011, 06:01:23 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 22, 2011, 05:32:20 AM
NB: Just noticed I have now notched 1,005 posts. Also,I have now been reclassified as a 'veteran'! :o :o :o


Congratulations, cilgwyn!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 22, 2011, 08:55:51 AM
Thank you,Johan. A 'Veteran',though?!!! Someone mentioned Dads Army,here, a while ago. Maybe I should choose a different nick name! Like Pike or Corporal Jones? :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 22, 2011, 10:06:46 AM
You stupid boy. You're a Godfrey. (Just joking)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 22, 2011, 11:11:50 AM
I certainly feel like Mr Godfrey! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 22, 2011, 11:21:15 AM
Well, I always liked Godfrey a lot, if that's a consolation...


Back to HB - The Gothic's coming!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 22, 2011, 12:39:51 PM
Next Monday,I believe. I have a feeling there will be a few posts here!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 23, 2011, 08:28:25 AM
I just ordered the Douglas Bostock CD of Psalm 23. Is it any good?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 23, 2011, 08:31:32 AM
I only read a review about it in the HBS Newsletter... It should be okay. But you'll be able to compare the LSSO performance with his!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 23, 2011, 08:57:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 23, 2011, 08:31:32 AM
I only read a review about it in the HBS Newsletter... It should be okay. But you'll be able to compare the LSSO performance with his!
I find the 1974 LSSO tentative compared to the earlier 1972 Unicorn disc so I'm keen to hear a pro version.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 23, 2011, 03:09:43 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 23, 2011, 08:28:25 AM
I just ordered the Douglas Bostock CD of Psalm 23. Is it any good?

It is no better than 'average'. The choir is too small, the recording is somewhat reccessed and the interpretation is not as full-throated as it could have been.

My opinion only, of course ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 23, 2011, 03:13:57 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 23, 2011, 03:09:43 PM
My opinion only, of course ;D


Not so modest, it does count for something.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 23, 2011, 03:22:44 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 23, 2011, 03:13:57 PM

Not so modest, it does count for something.

What.....more than that of the illustrious sage, Andrew Clements :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 23, 2011, 03:23:53 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 23, 2011, 03:22:44 PM
What.....more than that of the illustrious sage, Andrew Clements :o


Clements and you is the difference between a gnat and a planet.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 23, 2011, 03:28:25 PM
Oh come now.....

that is hyperbole gone insane........... ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 23, 2011, 03:29:43 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 23, 2011, 03:28:25 PM
Oh come now.....

that is hyperbole gone insane........... ;D


That's what the man's Brian review made me.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on November 23, 2011, 04:43:10 PM
Finally, finally,  heard my first Brian this evening.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51li%2Btd5cJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I can't report being overwhelmed or sent into heavenly ecstasy by it,  but it has a grand craggy beauty that makes me wonder why it was never performed in Brian's lifetime.

On deck to be heard sometime in the next few days are 2 Naxos recordings, the ones which contain Symphonies 11 and 15 and 20 and 25, inter alia.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 23, 2011, 07:32:34 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 23, 2011, 04:43:10 PM
Finally, finally,  heard my first Brian this evening.


I can't report being overwhelmed or sent into heavenly ecstasy by it,  but it has a grand craggy beauty that makes me wonder why it was never performed in Brian's lifetime.

On deck to be heard sometime in the next few days are 2 Naxos recordings, the ones which contain Symphonies 11 and 15 and 20 and 25, inter alia.

Was that The Gothic you listened to? If so, that WAS performed during his lifetime, twice to be exact. In 1961 with amateur forces, when he was 85, and in 1966, aged 90,  with professional ones.

As for the next four symphonies you have planned - No. 11 is beautiful and relaxed, No. 15 ceremonious and sunny, No. 20 is a typical late Brian piece, more abstract, but with several very personal and melancholy passages, and No. 25 is hard-bitten and powerful. The remaining symphonic poems are great fun.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on November 23, 2011, 07:54:37 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 23, 2011, 07:32:34 PM


Was that The Gothic you listened to? If so, that WAS performed during his lifetime, twice to be exact. In 1961 with amateur forces, when he was 85, and in 1966, aged 90,  with professional ones.


It was No. 3, on the Hyperion/Helios recording (BBC SO/Friend).  I posted an image of the cover art.  Isn't it showing at your end?

These three CDs, btw, were part of an order at MDT;  the remaining part is the new Hyperion /Proms Gothic; I'm crossing my fingers hoping MDT will send it out quickly enough that I will get it before the official US release date of 12/13.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 23, 2011, 10:00:56 PM
Ah, the Third! The reason I didn't see the picture was because I was typing my answer too quickly on my mobile and the page hadn't fully loaded...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 25, 2011, 02:52:00 AM
As Johan allready knows,Brian's 3rd is my favourite one (and,apparently,that of some others). 'Craggy beauty' (Jeffrey Smith) describes it very succinctly & could have cut down on the Hyperion booklet notes! (Although,I don't think that would have been a very good idea!) I first bought the cassette version & I rather wish I could find it,for old times sake. On the cassette,the 'scherzo' (although it's not called that!) opens side 2,which,after all the 'hassle' of taking the cassette out & turning it over,means it comes as even more of a suprise after the seriousness of the preceding movements. I have always been somewhat intrigued by the 'painting' chosen by Hyperion,for the front of the jewel box. I wonder why they chose that? Odd & not even,to my eyes at least,good art!  But in a strange way it does seem to go. I recall the Aries pirate Lp,which I bought from Michael G Thomas,who had ads in the back of Gramophone magazine,when it was still a can't-put-it-downer! They used to sell all kinds of 'dodgy' stuff. The front cover has a rock surrounded by crashing waves. Actually,one of their better efforts at sleeve design,probably. But pretty terrible really. I can't really see much connection. Brian's third is hardly a 'sea symphony'. Although some of those monolithic blocs of sound do seem to ebb and flow with the power of waves,all similarities end there!
  To my mind,Brian's third is the most enigmatic & fascinating of Brian symphonies after No 1! They're all pretty enigmatic though,really,especially the later ones. I remember someone comparing them to cryptic crosswords. In some ways,they are the musical equivalent & just as absorbing.
 
  Johan,you're descriptions of symphonies 11.15,20 & 25 are very concise & describe them perfectly. (Edit: How did 29 get there! :o)

  Incidentally,there are some Brian symphonies which hardly ever get mentioned at all. No's 13 (unlucky number?),14,17 & 19,of which there are no commercial recordings,are a case in point. I shall have to make some new cdrs,specifically, of them. But they really DO need a Dutton/Brabbins style performance & state of the art recording to yield all their 'secrets'.

Regarding,the old LSSO Lp of Symphonies 10 & 21. I have a confession to make. I used to play Side 2 of the Lp,No 21,quite allot!!!!

Finally,I first heard of Brian through an article in 'The Times' newspaper. I remember the 'headline' " Brian's Gothic Mountain looms",or something along those lines. I remember thinking,'What's that?',and then reading about this colossal symphony by this neglected 'genius' (?). The article was,of course,heralding the Schmidt performance,which was my own introduction to Brian's musical world (the Unicorn Lp came next!). I wonder if John has this article preserved in his 'archive' of cuttings. I would love to read it again.

Incidentally,with respect to Andrew Clementize. THis IS a review. I'm not 'into' Kimball Hadley,but look at all the detail in this review!!!

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/July01/Hadley.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/July01/Hadley.htm)

PS: Bought it from an Amazon seller,for £2.25,out of curiosity!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 25, 2011, 04:50:09 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 25, 2011, 02:52:00 AM
Incidentally,there are some Brian symphonies which hardly ever get mentioned at all. No's 13 (unlucky number?),14,17 & 19,of which there are no commercial recordings,are a case in point. I shall have to make some new cdrs,specifically, of them. But they really DO need a Dutton/Brabbins style performance & state of the art recording to yield all their 'secrets'.


No. 17 has beeen recorded, with No. 32, for Marco Polo/Naxos. But I know you don't like those.. Personally, I prefer Stanley Pope's (first) performance, too. The final section is much more (appropriately) violent in his reading, a sort of Brianic La Valse, ending in a march-like cataclysm, lasting only a few bars.


As for the remaining three - I have always loved them. No. 19 is a beauty, Brian at his most positive, though there is darkness in the slow movement. No. 13, as Macolm MacDonald says, sets out on a great journey. He does find fault with the one-movement structure. He thinks it is broken in two. After the lyrical high point of the symphony (and one of the most glorious things Brian ever wrote, I think) Brian continues with a melancholy solo clarinet, after which the music slowly rebuilds itself (though MM doesn't think so). The symphony ends in grandiose fashion, but MM, again, doesn't think the work has earned its triumph. I don't know. The symphony is mysterious in its trajectory, but it works for me emotionally. And the same goes for No. 14. A very colourful one-movement symphony. MM criticises that one even more strongly. And, again, I disagree. As does Dundonnell...


QuoteIncidentally,with respect to Andrew Clementize. THis IS a review. I'm not 'into' Kimball Hadley,but look at all the detail in this review!!!

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/July01/Hadley.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/July01/Hadley.htm)

PS: Bought it from an Amazon seller,for £2.25,out of curiosity!


I like the review. It made me curious.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 25, 2011, 05:57:41 AM
Of course,No 17 has been recorded. A bit of a blooper! I was typing out quite allot here & I must admit it's not one of my favourite occupations!!! (I already edited out No 29!)

I like you're descriptions of the others. So MM isn't convinced by 13 & 14? Now,if only I'd hung onto those books. If this Brian renaissance continues someone seriously needs to get those reprinted (Incidentally,is there any hope of that?)
  No13 is preceded by the twelfth (as it would be!),which is one Brian symphony I tend to avoid. Not because it's not interesting,but because it is so grim,even scary. It has a very menacing atmosphere in places,but also moments of serenity. Unsuprising,given the source of inspiration. In my opinion the Marco Polo performance is quite good,although my first encounter was with a tape of the Prom performance.
  Anyway,I digress! Symphonies 13-14 are particularly intriguing,owing to the fact that they are not available in commercial recordings & their pivotal position between some of the better known symphonies,particularly 10 & also 16,thanks to the celebrated Lyrita recording. No 19 is another one & once I get some more cdrs I will make up some cds exclusively devoted to these works. (Over the last couple of weeks I've burned around 65-70 cds & only need a couple more!) These are obviously important works,as you know,even if they aren't discussed as much as some of the others. You can't really 'understand' one without the other,can you? Another point,Brian's later symphonies are more abstract,so,they're obviously more difficult to discuss in 'laymans' terms. No references to 'Gotz von berlichingen',Goethe,enigmatic scribblings (Altarus),or possible allusions to 'goings on' in Nazi Germany to ruminate about & help you along,just the music alone!!!

I just found this page on the internet with a nice link to the Poole performance. When I scrolled down I discovered,unsuprisingly,that you're eagle eye had caught it first!

http://randomclassics.blogspot.com/2009/10/havergal-brians-symphony-no-4-with.html (http://randomclassics.blogspot.com/2009/10/havergal-brians-symphony-no-4-with.html)

Incidentally,lot's of interesting stuff on that blog!

As to Henry Kimball Hadley. I'm not expecting anything as absorbing & interesting as Brian & I'm pretty certain I won't get that. But that's the kind of review I like. Lots of detail (and the conductor even has enough enthusiasm to reply!). You even get a print out of the text! Of course,it might all just be a little TOO enthusiastic,but that's what I'm going to find out! As to Andrew Clements,the man (as a music critic,anyway) is a bore!

My pre-orders of the month: Brian Gothic Symphony Hyperion ordered from Amazon
                                           "     Music from the opera's (Vol 2) Toccata    "     HMV
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 25, 2011, 10:20:42 AM
Couldn't wait. Downloaded the Hyperion Gothic. Two things; 1) Hyperion engineers have done a wonderful job; 2) Havergal Brian was a genius.

Hard luck on anyone who can't hear that.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 25, 2011, 10:24:39 AM
First news from the front!! Could you be more precise, Steve? What, would you say, is the main difference between the recordings we have and Hyperion's 'wonderful job'?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 25, 2011, 10:42:49 AM
Johan,

The main difference is that this time I really have wet myself. It's wonderful.

I'm not a writer, you can all come to your own conclusions.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 25, 2011, 10:47:12 AM
Well, I don't want Brian to make me incontinent,  ;D  but I deduce the Hyperion Gothic must be extremely exciting!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 25, 2011, 11:04:32 AM
Go with the flow.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 25, 2011, 11:13:52 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 25, 2011, 11:27:01 AM
A change of pants on the cards,I see! Perhaps I'd better order some rubber ones,for the big event,just in case. On second thoughts, maybe not,people might get funny ideas! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 25, 2011, 02:13:10 PM
Quote from: Hattoff on November 25, 2011, 10:42:49 AM
Johan,

The main difference is that this time I really have wet myself. It's wonderful.

I'm not a writer, you can all come to your own conclusions.
Have the mistakes and extraneous noises been removed and is the sound superior, and if so by how much vs the live relay?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on November 25, 2011, 04:14:47 PM
Listening now to another of those Naxos CDs (RTE National S.O., Leaper cond.).  Must say Huzzah for Dr. Merryheart!  (and it's a very British sounding piece of music, too).  But the switch to the opening of Symphony 11 is a  bit of a change of pace....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 26, 2011, 01:15:07 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 25, 2011, 02:13:10 PM
Have the mistakes and extraneous noises been removed and is the sound superior, and if so by how much vs the live relay?

Apart from some muffled coughs all the unwanted noise has been removed. I can't hear any instrumental mistakes and even the drops in pitch seem to have been sorted out. To my ears while using headphones the sound was actually stunning, I could hear all sorts of musical things that I have not heard before.  There are very few longeurs in this long symphony, it is completely jam packed with brilliant ideas, twists and turns of harmony and sheer beauty.
I feel very, very sorry for those people who are unfortunate enough to not understand HB.

Hyperbowely yesterday, hyperbole today.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 26, 2011, 01:28:39 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on November 26, 2011, 01:15:07 AM
Apart from some muffled coughs all the unwanted noise has been removed. I can't hear any instrumental mistakes and even the drops in pitch seem to have been sorted out. To my ears while using headphones the sound was actually stunning, I could hear all sorts of musical things that I have not heard before.  There are very few longeurs in this long symphony, it is completely jam packed with brilliant ideas, twists and turns of harmony and sheer beauty.
I feel very, very sorry for those people who are unfortunate enough to not understand HB.

Hyperbowely yesterday, hyperbole today.

:D


When I had lunch with the HBS committee the day after the concert, we talked about the 'dropped pitch problem'. And either Martin Anderson (of Toccata fame) or John Grimshaw (Chairman) then said that engineers could pull off such a feat. If that has happened, that's great!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 26, 2011, 01:40:09 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 26, 2011, 01:28:39 AM
:D


When I had lunch with the HBS committee the day after the concert, we talked about the 'dropped pitch problem'. And either Martin Anderson (of Toccata fame) or John Grimshaw (Chairman) then said that engineers could pull off such a feat. If that has happened, that's great!
Johan, I would have expected this. Even I can sort out pitch issues and I use sellotape and old fairy liquid bottles on the kitchen table compared to Hyperion. You remember Blue Peter I assume? :D I once sourced a concert tape of the Tippett Piano Concerto and it was a major second flat. With some tweaking I got it back to concert pitch - I think it was on one of the CDs I sent you a month or so back.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 26, 2011, 01:48:36 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 26, 2011, 01:40:09 AM
Johan, I would have expected this. Even I can sort out pitch issues and I use sellotape and old fairy liquid bottles on the kitchen table compared to Hyperion. You remember Blue Peter I assume? :D I once sourced a concert tape of the Tippett Piano Concerto and it was a major second flat. With some tweaking I got it back to concert pitch - I think it was on one of the CDs I sent you a month or so back.


Then you're a wizard, too.


Here is a review of the Gothic performance by one Christopher Gunning I missed back in July:


http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/07/19/prom-4-christopher-gunning-who-sang-in-the-very-first-performance-experiences-havergal-brians-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/#more-5565 (http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/07/19/prom-4-christopher-gunning-who-sang-in-the-very-first-performance-experiences-havergal-brians-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/#more-5565)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 26, 2011, 02:28:20 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 26, 2011, 01:48:36 AM

Then you're a wizard, too.


Here is a review of the Gothic performance by one Christopher Gunning I missed back in July:


http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/07/19/prom-4-christopher-gunning-who-sang-in-the-very-first-performance-experiences-havergal-brians-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/#more-5565 (http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/07/19/prom-4-christopher-gunning-who-sang-in-the-very-first-performance-experiences-havergal-brians-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/#more-5565)
I am indeed a wizard so stay on my side otherwise I will change you into a newt. >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 26, 2011, 02:41:24 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 26, 2011, 01:48:36 AM

Here is a review of the Gothic performance by one Christopher Gunning I missed back in July:

http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/07/19/prom-4-christopher-gunning-who-sang-in-the-very-first-performance-experiences-havergal-brians-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/#more-5565 (http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/07/19/prom-4-christopher-gunning-who-sang-in-the-very-first-performance-experiences-havergal-brians-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/#more-5565)
Now that's what I call a review. Not a million miles from my own thoughts either. One thing's for sure - without Bob Simpson's efforts I don't think the Unicorn,CBS or the later Marco Polo recordings would have materialised. That would have kept HB firmly on a shelf gathering dust. Bob started the snowball off and anyone at all interested in this music should be eternally grateful. Not to be too controversial, I prefer the Simpson symphony cycle to HBs. Reach for tin hat.....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 26, 2011, 02:50:47 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 26, 2011, 02:41:24 AM
Now that's what I call a review. Not a million miles from my own thoughts either. One thing's for sure - without Bob Simpson's efforts I don't think the Unicorn,CBS or the later Marco Polo recordings would have materialised. That would have kept HB firmly on a shelf gathering dust. Bob started the snowball off and anyone at all interested in this music should be eternally grateful. Not to be too controversial, I prefer the Simpson symphony cycle to HBs. Reach for tin hat.....


Yes, without Robert Simpson there would have been no Brian 'Renaissance'. His role has been pivotal, and is still having an influence.


Leave your rusty tin hat where it is. Simpson's symphonic cycle is intellectually superior to Brian's, I think. He really tried to apply everything he learned from Beethoven and Nielsen to his own compositional practice. His symphonies are superb. Still - I prefer Brian's cycle, because I can connect with it. Simpson is all process, development, inevitabilty. I like Brian's freedom and, despite the enigmatic nature of much of his music, the very strong personality I can sense there. Brian's music moves and thrills me. Simpson's music, at its strongest, is as impressive as a supernova, but I can't relate to it as a human being.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 27, 2011, 08:38:58 AM
Short review of the Brabbins Gothic in today's Observer (with comment by John Grimshaw):


http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/nov/27/havergal-brian-gothic-symphony-1-review (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/nov/27/havergal-brian-gothic-symphony-1-review)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 27, 2011, 09:14:42 AM
Hm! Not bad really,for a mainstream newspaper. It's almost as if she quite liked it,but doesn 't want to say it 'out loud!'
I prefer Fiona Maddocks to Andrew Clements. She can be amusing at times;although this is not one of her best (it's so short). I remember her being very sarcastic about Brian once,but at least she was funny (well,my father laughed! But he doesn't like music!!! :o).
I'd feel pretty happy about THAT review if I was you,Johan;but then of course,I'm not!!! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 27, 2011, 09:17:43 AM
Well, I can live with this review. And I also get the feeling the piece carried her along. But as she can't 'legitimise' her experience, she has to say "Few regard it as a masterpiece"...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 27, 2011, 09:34:27 AM
I was just trying to be philosophical,of course. I wonder who the 'few',she's referring to,are? Us? HBS Members? Village idiots?!!!
How do they manage to assimilate such a vast work in one go? They're brains must go like lightning? A bit like David Bowie's alien in 'The Man who fell to earth',watching about fifteen televisions at once!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 27, 2011, 09:41:12 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 27, 2011, 09:34:27 AM
I was just trying to be philosophical,of course. I wonder who the 'few',she's referring to,are? Us? HBS Members? Village idiots?!!!


;D


'Few' is just a trick word. She hasn't done any research to substantiate it, she just trusts on Brian's relative obscurity.

QuoteHow do they manage to assimilate such a vast work in one go? They're brains must go like lightning? A bit like David Bowie's alien in 'The Man who fell to earth',watching about fifteen televisions at once!


Beats me. Clever girl.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 27, 2011, 04:41:13 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 27, 2011, 09:14:42 AM
Hm! Not bad really,for a mainstream newspaper. It's almost as if she quite liked it,but doesn 't want to say it 'out loud!'
I prefer Fiona Maddocks to Andrew Clements. She can be amusing at times;although this is not one of her best (it's so short). I remember her being very sarcastic about Brian once,but at least she was funny (well,my father laughed! But he doesn't like music!!! :o).
I'd feel pretty happy about THAT review if I was you,Johan;but then of course,I'm not!!! :)

I can't believe what I have just read :o

The review is a disgrace to any pretence at serious journalism.

As Albion put it so well on another forum:

"Nothing of any great insight here, then -

Of his symphonies most of them never played ...

::)  hmm, the BBC in the 1950s-1970s, Lyrita, EMI, Marco Polo ... ?

a thrilling and bizarre BBC Proms performance ...

::) ::)  hmm, meaningless, lazy adjectives ... ?

but it is just as well then that Few regard it as a masterpiece ...

::) ::) ::)  hmm, that dreaded word 'masterpiece' - who gives a flying flip whether it is or it isn't and what does the word mean beyond subjective prosletysing anyway?

Saints preserve us from 'music critics' - what a load of old cobblers."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on November 27, 2011, 08:31:36 PM
Another review that didn't require listening to the CD. I wish life were always so easy :'(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 27, 2011, 11:46:52 PM
Just to be clear - the reason I can live with the review is not because it's any good, but because it is there. And it says a few things about the Gothic that might pique someone's interest. Furthermore - John Grimshaw added a comment to set matters straight.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 28, 2011, 05:16:20 AM
I get a feeling my review of Fiona Maddock's review was too kind! ;D Anyway,it seems everyone's having a go at reviewing the Hyperion release: (if the link works,of course! :( ):

http://entartetemusik.blogspot.com/2011/11/striving-with-all-its-might.html (http://entartetemusik.blogspot.com/2011/11/striving-with-all-its-might.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2011, 05:28:12 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 28, 2011, 05:16:20 AM
I get a feeling my review of Fiona Maddock's review was too kind! ;D Anyway,it seems everyone's having a go at reviewing the Hyperion release: (if the link works,of course! :( ):

http://entartetemusik.blogspot.com/2011/11/striving-with-all-its-might.html (http://entartetemusik.blogspot.com/2011/11/striving-with-all-its-might.html)


"Hyperion has done the champions and the detractors of this work a great service: for the former, they finally have a recording they can cherish; for the latter, confirmation that the symphony isn't worth the effort. Click here to order a copy."


Well, that's that.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 28, 2011, 05:45:21 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2011, 05:28:12 AM

"Hyperion has done the champions and the detractors of this work a great service: for the former, they finally have a recording they can cherish; for the latter, confirmation that the symphony isn't worth the effort. Click here to order a copy."
Well, that's that.
It's not worth the effort so I will click and order a copy. Unusual approach to marketing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2011, 05:48:24 AM
'Balance' is a wondrous thing, indeed.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 28, 2011, 05:48:28 AM
I love the way they end their reviews with,"click here to order a copy!"
A total waste of time! Click here to order a copy.
Shapeless,devoid of thematic interest! Click here to order a copy!
Bland,derivative,hit and miss! Click here to order a copy!
For staunch admirers and completists,only. Click here to order a copy!
Bl**** awful. Click here to order a copy!
zzzzzzzzzzzz!  Click here to order a copy!

(etc,etc...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 28, 2011, 05:50:43 AM
Des O' Connor Now. Click here to order a copy! :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2011, 05:52:12 AM
Nice riff, cilgwyn. That's hwyl...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 28, 2011, 06:55:13 AM
Here's a review from Presto Classical:
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/news.php?date=2011-11-28

At least he has listened to it a few times, a couple more times and it may click.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 28, 2011, 07:02:49 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 28, 2011, 05:50:43 AM
Des O' Connor Now. Click here to order a copy! :D
Dreadful white wine that's only fit to put on your chips. Click here to buy a bottle.
Visit your local NHS. Click here for an MRSA infection.
Send your kids to the local comprehensive and fail to be educated properly. Click here to enrol.
Fatty food kills. Click here for a tub of lard.
The marketing possibilities are endless :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 28, 2011, 07:07:03 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on November 28, 2011, 06:55:13 AM
Here's a review from Presto Classical:
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/news.php?date=2011-11-28

At least he has listened tu it a few times, a couple more times and it may click. The poor man could end up like me :-[
Not a bad review to be fair. Falls down, ultimately, by not having a "click here to order a copy" link. Unbelievable oversight.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2011, 07:15:24 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 28, 2011, 07:07:03 AM
Not a bad review to be fair. Falls down, ultimately, by not having a "click here to order a copy" link. Unbelievable oversight.


In mitigation, below the article it does say Listen - sound samples available for this item, which brings you to a page where you can order, too.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 28, 2011, 07:21:47 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2011, 07:15:24 AM

In mitigation, below the article it does say Listen - sound samples available for this item, which brings you to a page where you can order, too.  :)
Too complicated. I don't want to go via a "listen to a sample" page. I want the good old fashioned, well tried and trusted "click here to order a copy" link. Anything else is a cop out. Anyway, must go and get the tea ready. Click here to enter kitchen.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2011, 07:22:20 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 28, 2011, 07:21:47 AM
Too complicated. I don't want to go via a "listen to a sample" page. I want the good old fashioned, well tried and trusted "click here to order a copy" link. Anything else is a cop out. Anyway, must go and get the tea ready. Click here to enter kitchen.


;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 28, 2011, 07:58:45 AM
'One click' on Amazon & if you're not too savvy on the internet,you could get a copy of a strange symphony involving hundreds of performers & an even stranger black cover design,popping through you're front door! :o

With respect to masterpieces,(whatever they are,but probably not anything by Des O' Connor). I have thoroughly enjoyed the following over the last couple of days,none of which I would regard as masterpieces:

Berners: The Triumph of Neptune (NOT a masterpiece,but not bad for a British ballet & full of good tunes!

Henry Kimball Hadley: orchestral works (Naxos) Someone on another forum described him as 'watered down Bax',but I thoroughly enjoyed his music. Fun,escapist,well orchestrated & he does have his own profile there,somewhere. I'm going to brave George Templeton's Strong's hour long Second Symphony next! :o

Malcolm Arnold: Symphonies. No masterpieces of shattering import,I suppose,but Arnolds use of the orchestra & particularly his assimilation of popular & classical idioms is masterly. In fact,I don't think anyone else has ever done it as convincingly,with the exception of Gershwin,Grant Still & maybe,Frederic Devreese.The frankly,uneven,Morton Gould comes close in his 3rd symphony & Latin American Symphonette (his long deleted Varese Sarabande recording with the LSO was sensational) Arnold's fifth symphony, is in my opinion, a minor masterpiece, I remember hearing it as a teenager & thinking,'Wow!' It blew my adolescent socks off! :o Anyway,I DEFINATELY digress!

And if you enjoy Leroy Anderson's 'Typewriter',what the hell? He was good at what he did!

Plink! Plank! Plunk! :D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 28, 2011, 11:51:23 AM
If that's not digressing ,what is? :o Masterpiece or not,here's to the next 'bad' or 'indifferent' review. Bring it on! Either we 'Brianites' really are a bunch of delusionals who can't sort the 'chaff from the wheat',or WE know something THEY don't know! I just pray it's the latter! On the other hand,there's always a possibility it could be a global conspiracy of some kind? Like the 'Illuminati' or that old b/w movie with Glen Ford,'The Brotherhood of the Bell'.
  Mind you,talk like this reminds me of that fellow,who walked up to Neil Armstrong & asked him to swear on the bible that he actually HAD walked on the moon. Armstrong punched him!
  And then there's William Glock,of course,around whom 'conspiracy' theories have revolved,for more years than I can remember. Incidentally,talking of Glock,I was very suprised to read in Naxos's programme notes, that Arnold's extremely tonal & tuneful Fourth symphony was actually commissioned by Glock (and the Beeb). Maybe,he wasn't so bad after all?
Howell's 'Hymnus Paradisi' on the cd player,at the moment. Is it a masterpiece or not? Personally,I couldn't care less. It sounds pretty good to me!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2011, 12:04:08 PM
I am not bothered by the detratctors. As I said earlier in this thread, people are free not to like Brian's music. I know from personal experience that some works took me many times before I started to like them. But in the end, I understood what Brian did and how his style worked. If you can crack the Brian code, you're 'in'. But you have to persevere. Fortunately there are always passages, even in the harshest works, that speak immediately.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on November 28, 2011, 01:17:55 PM
I couldn't agree more, Johan. It was only relatively recently that Das Siegeslied clicked for me.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 29, 2011, 12:18:49 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2011, 12:04:08 PM
I am not bothered by the detratctors. As I said earlier in this thread, people are free not to like Brian's music. I know from personal experience that some works took me many times before I started to like them. But in the end, I understood what Brian did and how his style worked. If you can crack the Brian code, you're 'in'. But you have to persevere. Fortunately there are always passages, even in the harshest works, that speak immediately.
'Allo 'Allo, this is Nighthawk, over.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 29, 2011, 12:37:31 AM
Roger!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on November 29, 2011, 12:40:47 AM
Good moaning!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 29, 2011, 06:06:29 AM
There WILL be moaning if there's another negative,or simply brainless,review! :(
Some good ones please. IRR,may come up with the goods,predictably,I suppose! And then there is 'the Hurwitz',who,if you can get past the bile & rants,actually seems to have quite a positive opinion of Brian,fair play! ;D Albeit,the music,not his admirers! :o
The Yorshire post may like the recording,but the 'broadsheets',or what passes for them now,might be a problem. :(
Still,it doesn't really matter what they say,does it,we know it's good.

Critics,what can you do with them,eh? >:D I got a s/h copy of the Groves/emi recording of VW's Hugh the Drover,today from a nice seller (I had the Lp's once* & have been trying to get the emi set for ages,but sellers ask such ridiculous prices). What a glorious,entertaining,lovely,tuneful opera. I listened to it twice through on headphones. Not a dull moment,but,oh no.......the critics don't like it! Poor old VW! Sir John in Love is another spellbinder,for those 'in the know'! :)

NB: Can't stand that horrible Hyperion recording,with that bloke with the annoying accent.The Groves recording is what good conducting,ensemble & singing is all about!

Sorry,if I appear to digress,again,but I'm just making a point about the way critics pan certain works or composers & that it's not just,so called,second or third rank composers that suffer.

* I had the good sense to keep the nice,big libretto that came with the Lp's! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 29, 2011, 07:40:55 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 29, 2011, 06:06:29 AM
Sorry,if I appear to digress,again,but I'm just making a point about the way critics pan certain works or composers & that it's not just,so called,second or third rank composers that suffer.


It's a point well made. Critics move in packs, they follow a dominant view. They fear ridicule and disrepect if they judge out of line.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on November 29, 2011, 07:45:22 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 29, 2011, 07:40:55 AM
It's a point well made. Critics move in packs, they follow a dominant view. They fear ridicule and disrepect if they judge out of line.

There's truth in here, but also the inherent limitations of a generalization.  There are also contrarians (and possibly even contrarian packs).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 29, 2011, 08:31:11 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 29, 2011, 07:45:22 AM
There's truth in here, but also the inherent limitations of a generalization.  There are also contrarians (and possibly even contrarian packs).


I take your point, Karl. I found it very telling, though, that a writer and critic like Jessica Duchen, who wrote a marvellous book about Korngold (who has now come in from the cold), when it came to Brian wrote on auto-pilot. As if taking Brian seriously would damage her. Nothing wrong with not liking him and explaining why, but she decided not to listen and simply go with the accepted 'wisdom'. I think that to earn your money in the mainstream nowadays has an inhibiting effect. To stand alone as a critic (or even as an artist) is risky. I wish for the return of informed and independent value judgements. Those take time, a clear view, and erudition, which is perhaps too much to ask, but are still of the essence.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on November 29, 2011, 08:38:20 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 29, 2011, 08:31:11 AM

I take your point, Karl. I found it very telling, though, that a writer and critic like Jessica Duchen, who wrote a marvellous book about Korngold (who has now come in from the cold), when it came to Brian wrote on auto-pilot. As if taking Brian seriously would damage her. Nothing wrong with not liking him and explaining why, but she decided not to listen and simply go with the accepted 'wisdom'. I think that to earn your money in the mainstream nowdays has an inhibiting effect. To stand alone as a critic (or even as an artist) is risky. I wish for the return of informed and independent value judgements. Those take time, a clear view, and erudition, which is perhaps too much to ask, but are still of the essence.

Entirely understand your righteous quarrel with Jessica Duchen here, Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on November 29, 2011, 08:39:21 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 29, 2011, 08:31:11 AM
I wish for the return of informed and independent value judgements. Those take time, a clear view, and erudition, which is perhaps too much to ask, but are still of the essence.

Some of the interest I find in Brian's own journalism derives from him often not having the full picture - and so, Haydn-style, he was forced to develop original opinions. Half of the problem with this journalistic groupthink might be the result of having a little too much information to hand (although, another sizable issue is an evident unwillingness to even read this available information beyond the cover blurb).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on November 29, 2011, 09:41:37 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 29, 2011, 08:39:21 AMSome of the interest I find in Brian's own journalism derives from him often not having the full picture - and so, Haydn-style, he was forced to develop original opinions. Half of the problem with this journalistic groupthink might be the result of having a little too much information to hand (although, another sizable issue is an evident unwillingness to even read this available information beyond the cover blurb).

At least Brian as a critic was musically literate and able to appreciate scores he was unable to experience in performance by using his oculars and thus form a judgement - with many of the 'music critics' operating today it would perhaps be stretching credibility beyond its limits to accord them the same level of ability.

???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on November 29, 2011, 02:48:43 PM
It's going online tomorrow and therefore still a secret, but I suggest you lads keep your eye on the announcement of MusicWeb International's 2011 CD of the Year!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 29, 2011, 02:51:18 PM
 :o :o :o


:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 29, 2011, 03:26:18 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 29, 2011, 06:06:29 AM
There WILL be moaning if there's another negative,or simply brainless,review! :(
Some good ones please. IRR,may come up with the goods,predictably,I suppose! And then there is 'the Hurwitz',who,if you can get past the bile & rants,actually seems to have quite a positive opinion of Brian,fair play! ;D Albeit,the music,not his admirers! :o
The Yorshire post may like the recording,but the 'broadsheets',or what passes for them now,might be a problem. :(
Still,it doesn't really matter what they say,does it,we know it's good!

:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on November 29, 2011, 07:00:43 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 29, 2011, 08:31:11 AM

I take your point, Karl. I found it very telling, though, that a writer and critic like Jessica Duchen, who wrote a marvellous book about Korngold (who has now come in from the cold), when it came to Brian wrote on auto-pilot. As if taking Brian seriously would damage her. Nothing wrong with not liking him and explaining why, but she decided not to listen and simply go with the accepted 'wisdom'. I think that to earn your money in the mainstream nowadays has an inhibiting effect. To stand alone as a critic (or even as an artist) is risky. I wish for the return of informed and independent value judgements. Those take time, a clear view, and erudition, which is perhaps too much to ask, but are still of the essence.

Might there also be the fact that this recording came from an instantly sold out Proms concert work into this?  I mean,  if a music critic is going to lecture The General Public on music, then the music critic can't admit that sometimes The General Public can pick a good piece of music all on its own.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 30, 2011, 12:29:41 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 29, 2011, 07:00:43 PM
Might there also be the fact that this recording came from an instantly sold out Proms concert work into this?  I mean,  if a music critic is going to lecture The General Public on music, then the music critic can't admit that sometimes The General Public can pick a good piece of music all on its own.


Jessica Duchen wrote about the Proms performance, Jeffrey (or, more accurately, didn't listen to it and wrote about that), not about the recording. Perhaps she still will, the coming weeks, I don't know. Your surmise may be correct. People who like Brian's music are often portrayed as a lunatic fringe, so you don't want to be tainted, or become guilty by association.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 30, 2011, 08:04:16 AM
I'm posting this for a couple of days then removing it. It's Psalm 23 by Bostock.
http://www.4shared.com/folder/vs5346nS/Brian_23_Bostock.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 30, 2011, 09:22:09 AM
"I'm the lunatic fringe?". Well.that explains everything.
Is there a doctor in the house?" :o

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 30, 2011, 11:30:32 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 30, 2011, 08:04:16 AM
I'm posting this for a couple of days then removing it. It's Psalm 23 by Bostock.
http://www.4shared.com/folder/vs5346nS/Brian_23_Bostock.html (http://www.4shared.com/folder/vs5346nS/Brian_23_Bostock.html)


I'm listening. It's a decent enough performance, but it's too 'nice'. The orchestra plays well, but lacks fire, as does the choir. Still - it's always a pleasure to hear a clear Brian recording! Thanks, John.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on November 30, 2011, 11:48:31 AM
I don't know the score at all, so, esteemed Johan, regard this as no better than a parenthesis, probably an irrelevance . . . but a setting of the 23rd Psalm which is fiery strikes me as trending towards an oxymoron.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 30, 2011, 11:49:14 AM
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/ROTY/roty2011_1.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/ROTY/roty2011_1.htm)

MUSICWEB INTERNATIONAL CD OF THE YEAR

Havergal BRIAN Symphony 1 The Gothic  Susan Gritton (soprano) Bach Ch, Brighton Festival Chorus, Huddersfield Choral Soc, London Symphony Ch, BBC National Ch & O Wales; BBC Concert O/Martyn Brabbins rec. 2011  HYPERION CDA67971/2

While the Martin/Hyperion recording [of the opera Der Sturm] would seem to have seem to have the credentials for this award, it is not simply a numbers game. The most significant event of the musical calendar, in the UK at least, surely had to be Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony at the Proms on July 17. Hyperion's recording of the performance was only officially released this week, but Musicweb was fortunate to have an advance copy for review.


+


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/ROTY/roty2011_MZ.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/ROTY/roty2011_MZ.htm)


BRIAN REINHART



Havergal BRIAN Symphony 1 The Gothic  Susan Gritton (soprano) Bach Ch, Brighton Festival Chorus, Huddersfield Choral Soc, London Symphony Ch, BBC National Ch & O Wales; BBC Concert O/Martyn Brabbins rec. 2011  HYPERION CDA67971/2

My own copy has yet to arrive, and my own review will be appearing in early 2012, but I was standing in the Albert Hall arena for this concert and have heard broadcasts several times since. There is simply no musical accomplishment this year to rival the Proms Gothic; if it's not the MusicWeb 2011 Recording of the Year I shall re-nominate it in 2012.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 30, 2011, 11:51:56 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on November 30, 2011, 11:48:31 AM
I don't know the score at all, so, esteemed Johan, regard this as no better than a parenthesis, probably an irrelevance . . . but a setting of the 23rd Psalm which is fiery strikes me as trending towards an oxymoron.


Purely thinking of the psalm it might seem that way, Karl. But though Brian's setting certainly has its tranquil and pastoral sides, there are still passages with real energy... Perhaps the word 'fiery' wasn't right. But Bostock's reading lacks involvement and passion.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 30, 2011, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 30, 2011, 11:51:56 AM

Purely thinking of the psalm it might seem that way, Karl. But though Brian's setting certainly has its tranquil and pastoral sides, there are still passages with real energy... Perhaps the word 'fiery' wasn't right. But Bostock's reading lacks involvement and passion.
It's very polished and beautifully played but it sounds as if nobody is interested. The LSSO aren't in very good form on CBS but at least there's some enthusiasm and drive about it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 30, 2011, 01:49:46 PM
Karl Henning has a point. Psalm 58,maybe,but not Psalm 23! But I know what you mean,Johan. Maybe a little more 'oomph',perhaps! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 30, 2011, 01:52:59 PM
Yes, enthusiasm, drive, 'oomph', that's what is lacking. The LSSO never lacked commitment in their Brian recordings. Energy is more important than perfection.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 30, 2011, 03:42:08 PM
Quite! A bit of enthusiasm goes a long way,I say,which is why I still prefer some of the Hull Youth SO recordings to the Naxos ones,even if they're horribly out of tune! Just don't tell John!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 30, 2011, 04:55:02 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 30, 2011, 11:30:32 AM

I'm listening. It's a decent enough performance, but it's too 'nice'. The orchestra plays well, but lacks fire, as does the choir. Still - it's always a pleasure to hear a clear Brian recording! Thanks, John.

Which is, I think, more or less, what I said in my review a few days ago ;D

Maybe if there is a vacancy at 'The Guardian'.......no, I couldn't work for that newspaper ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 30, 2011, 06:11:40 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 30, 2011, 04:55:02 PM
Which is, I think, more or less, what I said in my review a few days ago

Maybe if there is a vacancy at 'The Guardian'.......no, I couldn't work for that newspaper

Well, you were simply right... And John reached the same verdict.

As for replacing the current 'critic' with you, there is a way of creating a vacancy, of course. But I live too far away. And it's illegal.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on November 30, 2011, 06:15:57 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 30, 2011, 06:11:40 PM

As for replacing the current 'critic' with you, there is a way of creating a vacancy, of course. But I live too far away. And it's illegal.

Moreover, I called dibs (or, in British English, bagsy)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 30, 2011, 11:26:20 PM
Quote from: Brian on November 30, 2011, 06:15:57 PM
Moreover, I called dibs (or, in British English, bagsy)!


That would be nice!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 01, 2011, 01:19:33 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 30, 2011, 03:42:08 PM
Quite! A bit of enthusiasm goes a long way,I say,which is why I still prefer some of the Hull Youth SO recordings to the Naxos ones,even if they're horribly out of tune! Just don't tell John!!!
Please remove this highly offensive post ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 01, 2011, 04:42:05 AM
Now I've heard the official release of the Proms Gothic (it does sound very fine indeed, although the pitch problem is beyond my musicological grasp at the moment), perhaps one of the first times that I've made an effort to listen to the whole work all the way through with full focus, I have come to consider the first part a bit of a hassle. I feel that both part 1 and the title of "symphony" gets in the way of the work - both its contents and peoples expectations for it.

Part 2, the third movement in particular reminds me a bit of a work like Delius's Sea Drift, and for such a radical style (I do find Delius to be radical in his break from standardised, waypointed Romanticism), the expectations of a Mahler-like work that are set up in part 1 are not only undelivered, but perhaps spoiled by the style of part 2. When I make it all the way through part 2 (this work isn't a love at first sight piece for me, or even second or third sight), I feel that a satisfying journey and duration has been put forward, but part 1 feels curtailed, simultaneously needing part 2 to give it resolution, yet not being the equal of it.

However, if Brian was in the expansive mood of his second symphony, perhaps the work would be unmanageable? Either way - how it is now, and how it could be, leave me slightly unsatisfied. In terms of musical content, part 1 is certainly a favourite, but it's just a stump, really... :-X
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 01, 2011, 07:13:12 AM
A very interesting post, Sara.


You mention Delius' Sea Drift in comparison. Well, I love that work and formally I think it's superior to Brian's Te Deum. It sets a Whitman poem, beautifully, and with an emotional inexorability that makes it into the masterpiece it is. But formal perfection isn't the thing by which I personally measure The Gothic. Ezra Pound, in his kaleidoscopic Cantos, proudly boasts It all coheres, where it plainly doesn't. And neither does the modernistic Gothic. The work is plainly post-World War 1. It may use Mahlerian forces, but where Mahler can be prophetic, Brian has lived through the destruction Mahler fore-felt. The Gothic is a battle-field. It seems to set out, very purposefully, with a clear destination, and Part 1 reaches that within its own smaller world. But when the Te Deum starts, we enter a world which is just one opening-out, a real voyage of discovery with an uncertain outcome.


When I listen to Part 2, I can hear we are progressing, and when I reach the end I know I have come very far. But where? And how does it all hang together? I don't know. Of course, analysis has shown that there are families of themes, that tonality is progressive, et cetera. But the essence of the Gothic for me is that amazing journey through sonic landscapes, through exultation, terror, war and a kind of prayer. The Tigers, the satirical brother of the Gothic, and also a fruit of World War I, is just as inconclusive and also contains the most amazing music. For me that's enough... I think Brian reached a balance between formal cohesion and copious invention only later. Symphony No. 5, Wine of Summer, is one such a work. And come to think of it - that could be Brian's answer to Sea  Drift... The Gothic has much more in common with A Mass of Life.


P.S. I can feel the unity of the Gothic. There is a very strong atmosphere there, peculiar to that work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 01, 2011, 07:34:54 AM
I do rather love Brian's text choices. I can only imagine how schlock it might sound if there was a War Requiem-esque attempt to insert overt contemporary references into it. (Wait, we already have that, don't we - Foulds' World Requiem - which I have yet to hear.)

I suppose you're right about it defeating the point for the work to come to an academically perfect conclusion - the way Brian balances on a knife edge his own unique structural logic to solve "problems" that a lesser composer would crumble beneath, and a better one would smooth into mediocrity. I suppose it would be too cheap for Brian to try to pin down part 2 with more literal references to part 1, in an attempt to give that more weight - but the subtleties in the connections between the two described by you and Malcolm MacDonald are a bit beyond me at the moment.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 01, 2011, 07:45:20 AM
I suddenly remember a quip by the conductor and composer Walter Goehr about Wagner, which goes something like "Life is too short to discover whether the Ring is a perfect work of art". I think you could say the same about the Gothic. It's an endlessly fascinating piece and the jury is still out whether it succeeds. Though you could ask yourself: what exactly did Brian set out to accomplish, and did his goal(s) change along the way? I know he wrote How the Gothic came to be written, but that doesn't really give you an answer...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Superhorn on December 01, 2011, 07:49:08 AM
   Here;s some great news : this Summer's London Proms saw   a performance of Brian's  almost never performed Gothic symphony  ,
with conductor Martyn Brabbins , the BBC symphony and  just about every chorus in London .  And  lo and behold , it was recorded live
by Hyperion records  and is about to be released . 
I got this message  yesterday in  an e mail from  arkivmusic.com  showing new releases from Hyperion  .  Hooray  for Hyperion !









;)                                                               ;)                                                 ;)                                                           ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: ibanezmonster on December 01, 2011, 08:02:50 AM
Nice!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 01, 2011, 08:14:57 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on December 01, 2011, 07:49:08 AM
   Here;s some great news : this Summer's London Proms saw   a performance of Brian's  almost never performed Gothic symphony  ,
with conductor Martyn Brabbins , the BBC symphony and  just about every chorus in London .  And  lo and behold , it was recorded live
by Hyperion records  and is about to be released . 
I got this message  yesterday in  an e mail from  arkivmusic.com  showing new releases from Hyperion  .  Hooray  for Hyperion !                                                       ;)                                                 ;)                                                           ;)

You must not spend any time in the Brian thread  ;)  Check it out. It's become the largest composer thread with over 3000 posts.

It's been released in Europe already. My copy arrived yesterday (ordered from Amazon UK, dispatched from Amazon's German depot).

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 01, 2011, 08:18:17 AM
That's the great thing about a bad economy. Houses and cars don't sell, but Havergal Brian does.

I will resist getting a copy since I have the Marco Polo already and doubling up on my Brian recordings is currently not a high priority. But I have  been known to break my rules (which I make up on the way) so...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Superhorn on December 01, 2011, 08:37:14 AM
   In fact, I have spent time on the Brian thread . I just posted this on the general classical music section. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on December 01, 2011, 08:56:53 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 01, 2011, 08:14:57 AM
You must not spend any time in the Brian thread  ;)  Check it out. It's become the largest composer thread with over 3000 posts.

It's been released in Europe already. My copy arrived yesterday (ordered from Amazon UK, dispatched from Amazon's German depot).

Sarge

And MDT sent out my copy on Monday.  With a little luck,  there won't be be any undue delays and I may have it before 12/13.  And unless there's a real delay, I will probably have it before I would have received it from a US vendor.

It's so nice to have the Intertubes.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 01, 2011, 09:06:34 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on December 01, 2011, 08:37:14 AM
   In fact, I have spent time on the Brian thread . I just posted this on the general classical music section. 

Yes, but why not in the Recordings section?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 01, 2011, 09:13:48 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 01, 2011, 09:06:34 AM
Yes, but why not in the Recordings section?

Why not both - based on all the lukewarm newspaper reviews of the performance (which I don't agree with) Brian needs the PR ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mjwal on December 01, 2011, 10:07:47 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 01, 2011, 07:13:12 AM
A very interesting post, Sara.

You mention Delius' Sea Drift in comparison. Well, I love that work and formally I think it's superior to Brian's Te Deum. It sets a Whitman poem, beautifully, and with an emotional inexorability that makes it into the masterpiece it is. But formal perfection isn't the thing by which I personally measure The Gothic. Ezra Pound, in his kaleidoscopic Cantos, proudly boasts It all coheres, where it plainly doesn't.
A very interesting mail, Johan - it's quite a fruitful way of looking at the Brian oeuvre - and you really make me want to hear Symphony #5! But the point about Pound is mistaken - here he is in the Cantos:
   
I have brought the great ball of crystal;

            Who can lift it?

    Can you enter the great acorn of light?
    But the beauty is not the madness
    Tho' my errors and wrecks lie about me.
    And I am not a demigod,
    I cannot make it cohere.
-
and here is the climax of his translation of Sophokles' Women of Trachis:
What
SPLENDOUR
It all coheres

But a bit later in the Cantos he wrote:
i.e. it coheres all right
even if my notes do not cohere
-
which I think you will agree makes his position clear: "things" (to put it crudely) cohere, but my version of them doesn't.
Personally speaking, I could not feel that the Gothic coheres after listening to that Proms transmission (having only heard it once before on a cruddy tape of the first performance) - I even got a bit bored at times. It was like the curate's egg, in fact...I'll try again when i have the opportunity and the night is right.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 01, 2011, 10:19:05 AM
Thanks for correcting me, Martin! That Pound quote was from memory, but it seems you have Pound firmly imprinted - thanks for that short but illuminating excursion. As for your Brian experience - I sympathise. Brian had great admiration for Delius and he wrote extensively about him. But as always, he took from him what he could use and what resulted bears all his unmistakable traits. If you want to try Wine of Summer, here it is:


http://www.mediafire.com/?zmgnn31swnu


It's a very clear and rather severe piece, from 1937. It sets a poem by Lord Alfred Douglas, the bane of Oscar Wilde...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 01, 2011, 10:25:58 AM
Okay, I'm starting a Brian thread in The Diner! ; )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 01, 2011, 10:33:40 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 01, 2011, 10:19:05 AM
Thanks for correcting me, Martin! That Pound quote was from memory, but it seems you have Pound firmly imprinted - thanks for that short but illuminating excursion. As for your Brian experience - I sympathise. Brian had great admiration for Delius and he wrote extensively about him.
At last, I have something in common with Brian. I rate Delius very highly. His fiddle concerto, double concerto and Brigg Fair are all magnificent pieces just to choose three of his many beautiful works. I still get goose bumps at the climax of Brigg Fair just as I did all those years ago playing it under Del Mar and Tippett. One of the great moments in all music. Honest. It's that good. After that wonderful climax the stillness returns and the ending is magical. Must go - I need to hear it. Nothing awkward about Delius's writing for the orchestra :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 01, 2011, 10:43:12 AM
Perhaps something of interest to the converted:

When I was buying Brian books some months ago, I noticed that vol.1 of his journalism on Toccata was going for almost nothing on Amazon marketplace, as it had been in print for two decades or so. But when I checked just now, suddenly the lowest used price on Amazon UK is £13.68.

Maybe a small but substantative indication that the composer has gained new friends since the Proms Gothic?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 01, 2011, 10:43:30 AM
I love Delius as much as I love Brian... As for Delius' handling of the orchestra, I did once hear a complaint - that playing Delius was boring, because his music is driven by harmony more than melody. So, though his scoring may be awkward sometimes, polyphonic Brian does offer nice challenges to every player...  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 01, 2011, 10:45:08 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on December 01, 2011, 10:43:12 AM
Perhaps something of interest to the converted:

When I was buying Brian books some months ago, I noticed that vol.1 of his journalism on Toccata was going for almost nothing on Amazon marketplace, as it had been in print for two decades or so. But when I checked just now, suddenly the lowest used price on Amazon UK is £13.68.

Maybe a small but substantative indication that the composer has gained new friends since the Proms Gothic?


Could be... Or sellers cashing in on what they expect to be heightened interest...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 01, 2011, 10:59:56 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 01, 2011, 10:43:30 AM
I love Delius as much as I love Brian... As for Delius' handling of the orchestra, I did once hear a complaint - that playing Delius was boring, because his music is driven by harmony more than melody. So, though his scoring may be awkward sometimes, polyphonic Brian does offer nice challenges to every player...  ;)
Some of his stuff can be boring to play, agreed, but not Brigg Fair. There's too much going on. I love the sound world of Delius and Ravel (Mother Goose - wow). Sheer beauty of orchestral colour perfectly balanced. A Quote from Del Mar to 1st flute of the LSSO, Ruth Webb, in a Brigg Fair rehearsal around 30 seconds into the piece: "You need more resonance in the lower register. I suggest that you need to practice in an acoustic with an echo such as a toilet". Not word perfect, obviously, but it caused great hilarity at the time. Ruth's with the LPO now and we talked about this when she visited Oldham a few months back. Music creates indelible memories doesn't it?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 01, 2011, 11:04:24 AM
Nice story. Brigg Fair is a wonderful piece, and that climax with the bells is stirring stuff. And then the beautiful dying fall at the close. Yes, magical!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on December 01, 2011, 03:08:48 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 01, 2011, 10:25:58 AM
Okay, I'm starting a Brian thread in The Diner! ; )

Well, I'd use it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 02, 2011, 04:54:07 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on December 01, 2011, 07:49:08 AM
   Here;s some great news : this Summer's London Proms saw   a performance of Brian's  almost never performed Gothic symphony  ,
with conductor Martyn Brabbins , the BBC symphony and  just about every chorus in London .  And  lo and behold , it was recorded live
by Hyperion records  and is about to be released . 
I got this message  yesterday in  an e mail from  arkivmusic.com  showing new releases from Hyperion  .  Hooray  for Hyperion !









;)                                                               ;)                                                 ;)                                                           ;)

It was played by the combined forces of the BBC National Orchestra of Wales and the BBC Concert Orchestra not the BBC Symphony Orchestra.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 02, 2011, 04:55:32 AM
Now that you are comparing HB with Delius I really am better out of here :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 02, 2011, 05:38:19 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 02, 2011, 04:55:32 AM
Now that you are comparing HB with Delius I really am better out of here :( ;D
Don't you like Delius? His scoring is just miraculous. The concertos are sublime. He was a craftsman who knew how to write for the orchestra. I certainly don't compare Delius with HB. There simply is no comparison. I just read a thread about HB liking Delius on here, hence the banter.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 02, 2011, 09:54:07 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on December 01, 2011, 07:49:08 AM
   Here;s some great news : this Summer's London Proms saw   a performance of Brian's  almost never performed Gothic symphony  ,
with conductor Martyn Brabbins , the BBC symphony and  just about every chorus in London .  And  lo and behold , it was recorded live
by Hyperion records  and is about to be released . 
I got this message  yesterday in  an e mail from  arkivmusic.com  showing new releases from Hyperion  .  Hooray  for Hyperion !
Aw,get away!!!!



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 02, 2011, 10:16:29 AM
(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7909/scan10009e.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-12-02

Merry Xmas,John!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 02, 2011, 10:30:29 AM
 And just so you don't miss out,here's the back cover:

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/2603/scan10013.jpg (http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/2603/scan10013.jpg)(http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/2603/scan10013.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-12-02
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 02, 2011, 11:28:06 AM
So that's what it was!

(http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/4869/scan10016k.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 03, 2011, 02:15:31 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 02, 2011, 10:16:29 AM
(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7909/scan10009e.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-12-02

Merry Xmas,John!
Thankyou so much. I am truly touched. Some of it is perfectly decent to be fair. It's when the violins are out of their depth that the trouble starts. All youth orchestras suffer from this to different degrees. I will treasure this splendid gift :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 03, 2011, 02:59:03 AM
Cilgwyn, I've made CD inserts for my Hull download CD case using your scans. Looks lovely. Will try the discs later to see if the playing has been improved :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 03, 2011, 03:49:47 AM
(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8561/scan10017x2.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-12-03

Without the jewel case around it & a little contrast! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 03, 2011, 03:54:36 AM
(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2446/scan10018x2.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-12-03
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 03, 2011, 03:57:57 AM
(http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/8482/scan10020x.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-12-03
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 03, 2011, 04:22:13 AM
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/7581/scan10023xxxx3f2.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-12-03

For your instant Havergal Brian cd,print image on card,cut round with scissors & insert in cd drawer to play!

PS Just received Brian Orchestral Works Vol 2 from Toccata,today. More to follow!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 03, 2011, 04:45:09 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 03, 2011, 04:22:13 AM
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/7581/scan10023xxxx3f2.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-12-03

For your instant Havergal Brian cd,print image on card,cut round with scissors & insert in cd drawer to play!

PS Just received Brian Orchestral Works Vol 2 from Toccata,today. More to follow!
For some reason neither my CD drive or CD player recognise the CD. Maybe I'm using analogue cardboard.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 03, 2011, 05:11:51 AM
It's a hard life.isn't it? :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 03, 2011, 05:52:01 AM
So bang goes my deal with Kellogs cornflakes! :(

In the meantime,first impressions of Brian Vol 2 from Toccata,are late Brian (bar the Variations,of course) at his best. This is one of the best Brian cds I have heard in terms of content & planning. Also,as someone has pointed out,the sound quality is much better than on Vol 1. There is more of a feeling of spaciousness. I hate to say it,but the 'dry' sound on Vol 1 reminded me a little too much of some of those Naxos cds,except that the playing was much better. Brian's use of brass comes to the forefront in some of those operatic fragments & there are those tremendous moments of 'stillness' which Brian is so good at. The extract from Faust has to be Brian at his most riveting. But the whole cd was on repeat,it was that good. I only wish that we could hear more of the actual opera's themselves.
Marvellous,and well worth the wait!

Hopefully,it won't be too long before we're 'reviewing' the Stone songs cd!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 03, 2011, 06:52:39 AM
I had the same positive experience with Vol. 2, as you know. A really essential addition to our knowledge of Brian. I think the second Turandot Suite, the Tigers Variations and the Cenci Prologue are my personal favourites.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 03, 2011, 07:20:46 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 02, 2011, 05:38:19 AM
Don't you like Delius? His scoring is just miraculous. The concertos are sublime. He was a craftsman who knew how to write for the orchestra. I certainly don't compare Delius with HB. There simply is no comparison. I just read a thread about HB liking Delius on here, hence the banter.

As Johan knows only too well, Delius and I are not on terms ;D ;D

Very early Delius I can just about handle-I quite like the Florida Suite, Paris, Appalachia and Brigg Fair- but once he got stuck in his b***** summer garden or drifting down some endless river somewhere, snoozing in the summer sunshine I get bored to tears.

Sorry...but that's just the way it is ;D I can't stand Rachmaninov after he left Russia and I happen to think that, with the exceptions of his First, Second and Eight Symphonies, Mahler is grossly over-rated......but DON'T TELL ANYBODY ELSE THIS ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 03, 2011, 08:21:50 AM
I need to listen to the cd allot more,of course. That was just an initial impression. I didn't have that much time to listen to it very carefully. I was just doing things with the old Sennheiser cordless headphones,which,incidentally.isn't the best way to check out sound quality,but they are good for cordless jobs & I can definately hear a big difference between volumes 1 & 2. But the wonderful sonorities Brian gets out of his orchestra. I played the Moeran Violin Concerto the other night. A lovely work (Moeran seems closer to Bax than VW,to my ears). I played Brian Vol 1 after the Moeran & it struck me that while the Moeran was music for the emotions,the Brian was music for the mind. I could say intellect,but the use of the word intellect seems a little to dry for a composer like Brian. Simpson,but not Brian!

Incidentally,my personal favourite on Vol 1 is the 'Elegy'!

Regarding Delius. My favourite Delius for years was the 'North Country Sketches'. Recently,I found out that this was regarded by some as music for 'people who think they don't like Delius!' For years,the only Delius cd I had was the Groves emi  of the above mentioned,'Life's Dance','Eventyr', the Dance Rhapsody No 1 & 'Song of Summer'. These remain my favourite Delius works & the cd that 'enjoys' the most visits to my cd player. I also had a cfp cd of short tone poems conducted by Handley (very well chosen) and the original Argo release of 'A Village Romeo & Juliet' conducted by Mackerras,which I bought after watching the 'film' of the production,on Channel 4,when it came out, & thinking it was wonderful. I later sold the Argo cd set (regrettably) & now have the Decca reissue,which doesn't look as nice & has no libretto! Silly me! I still think that with all it's faults,'A Village Romeo & Juliet' is one of the best English opera's before 'Peter Grimes'. Having said that,I have to admit that a good deal of Delius does have the same effect on me as it does on Dundonnell,even if,I can't say I dislike it. The Violin Concerto,for example, got taken off only the other night. The Moeran VC may be rhapsodic,but at least it's got some bracingly good tunes. 

Incidentally,Dundonnell,I'm unfamiliar with Delius's "In a Bl**** summer garden"? Is this a recently rediscovered work? It doesn't sound like his usual stuff!!!! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 03, 2011, 08:36:45 AM
The North Country Sketches did that trick for me too, and I am still not particularly involved with Delius's other works for orchestra. His chamber music provided a slightly more rigorous and easy to enjoy medium for me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 03, 2011, 08:41:44 AM
Not so familiar with his chamber music. I shall have to investigate! Cyril Scott is the same. His chamber music is a pleasant suprise after the rhapsodic,chromatic meanderings of (most of)his orchestral output. It seemed to focus his mind.

Regarding Rachmaninov. Can't say I dislike his music,but I don't play it very much. Personally,I prefer the underrated Rheinhold Gliere,any day. So much more subtle. For once,Rob Barnett's enthusiasm isn't too way over the top. Although,saying he is a better composer than Tchaikovsky IS a bit OTT!
Gliere's three symphonies are,in my humble opinion,some of the best Russian symphonies of their era. No's 1 & 2,my favourites,are absolute peaches & deserve far more performances. The Red Poppy is fun too!  I wonder if I shall ever get to hear one of his opera's?

As to Mahler. I like him,although,not the pretentious way some people drone on about him.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 03, 2011, 09:00:47 AM
The only part of Delius' output I still have to investigate is his chamber music, and that's because I love Delius' handling of the orchestra so much. As I said earlier, to Colin's utter amazement, Brian and Delius are my two personal favourite composers. Beethoven and Wagner are my 'impersonal' favourites, meaning: I can't imagine being them... I think Delius is underrated. He's got more 'Northern grit' than people think, who only see the invalid nature poet. The point with Delius is - go with the flow, don't analyse, experience! I don't think that, apart from Chopin, anyone has created so much pure beauty in music. But it's not for everyone, apparently!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 03, 2011, 09:23:05 AM
Of course,like Brian,he was a bit of a maverick,really. If it hadn't been for Beecham I wonder what would have happened.
Speaking of Cyril Scott,I quite like SOME of his music,but you only have to look at Delius's best music,say Brigg Fair,to see just how focused & disciplined Delius's music actually is. I'm not to so keen on his concerto's though! Actually,there is something 'gritty' about A Village Romeo & Juliet'. When you think of the plot lines of allot of contemporary English opera's it's pretty bold for it's time. No hey nonny no's or Wizard potions there (albeit,a few la la's at the fair).It's not quite 'kitchen sink',but it's a pretty grim story.

Incidentally,I thought Langgaard was one of you're 'big' favourites?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 03, 2011, 09:42:07 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 03, 2011, 09:23:05 AM
Incidentally,I thought Langgaard was one of you're 'big' favourites?


I love uncompromising mavericks (but not all, of course; has to do with temperament). You may add Magnard, too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 03, 2011, 09:46:39 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 03, 2011, 09:42:07 AM
I love uncompromising mavericks (but not all, of course; has to do with temperament). You may add Magnard, too.

Magnard doesn't even have a trendy cult following - a truly esoteric pick ;)

Closest to me is... Haydn, Schumann and Schubert. Credentials... slipping...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 03, 2011, 09:52:55 AM
I think the choice of favourite composers says a lot about a person. Haydn, Schumann, Schubert to me signal 'joyful intellect' (Haydn), 'intensity' (Schumann) and 'melancholy and movement' (Schubert)...


Re Magnard -  I can't be exoteric all the time.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on December 03, 2011, 05:27:42 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 03, 2011, 07:20:46 AM
As Johan knows only too well, Delius and I are not on terms ;D ;D

Very early Delius I can just about handle-I quite like the Florida Suite, Paris, Appalachia and Brigg Fair- but once he got stuck in his b***** summer garden or drifting down some endless river somewhere, snoozing in the summer sunshine I get bored to tears.

Sorry...but that's just the way it is ;D I can't stand Rachmaninov after he left Russia and I happen to think that, with the exceptions of his First, Second and Eight Symphonies, Mahler is grossly over-rated......but DON'T TELL ANYBODY ELSE THIS ;D ;D ;D

Excuse me while I dig out my Mahler hammer.  After all, it should be perfectly obvious that Mahler is grossly under-rated :)

Seriously--Mahler is possibly my favorite composer--he connects with me much better than any other composer.  Shostakovich too, but not quite so forcefully as Mahler.

Of course, Mahler's rival for favorite composer is Bach, so there's more to it than just emotional connection.

(And--apologies to Johan et al--I have to admit I find Delius to be mostly a b*** bore, whether he's in a summer, autumn, winter or spring garden.  )

But my first impression of Brian, after listening to those three CDs is that he belongs in the Mahler school of symphonists--Mahler updated to mid twentieth century, cured of his neuroses, and loaded up with a dose of Englishness.  Which at least bodes well for my future opinion of Brian. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on December 03, 2011, 05:42:54 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 03, 2011, 09:52:55 AM
I think the choice of favourite composers says a lot about a person. Haydn, Schumann, Schubert to me signal 'joyful intellect' (Haydn), 'intensity' (Schumann) and 'melancholy and movement' (Schubert)...


Re Magnard -  I can't be exoteric all the time.  ;D

Well, go on, analyse the combo Dvorak, Janacek, and Beethoven then  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 03, 2011, 09:08:53 PM
@Jeffrey You're forgiven for dismissing Delius in whatever season he chooses to mourn or exult because of your gratifying characterisation of Brian.... Other CDs I recommend you really should investigate now are 1) Symphony 10 + English Suite No. 3 + Concerto for Orchestra + Symphony 30 (Brabbins/Dutton) and 2) Symphonies 6 + 16 (Fredman/Lyrita).

@Brian What connects all three, Dvorak, Janacek and Beethoven, are 'sanity, earthiness and drive'...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on December 04, 2011, 12:41:29 AM
Johan, you have invented a new method of divination. May I suggest you name it compomancy? I see great things ahead. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 04, 2011, 12:45:10 AM
Johan the Compomancer... I like it, Steve!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 04, 2011, 01:16:56 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on December 03, 2011, 09:46:39 AM
Magnard doesn't even have a trendy cult following - a truly esoteric pick ;)

I beg to differ. Johann and I make quite a trendy little cult. Quite exclusive too  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 04, 2011, 01:17:50 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 03, 2011, 09:52:55 AM
I think the choice of favourite composers says a lot about a person. Haydn, Schumann, Schubert to me signal 'joyful intellect' (Haydn), 'intensity' (Schumann) and 'melancholy and movement' (Schubert)...

Suicidal (Pettersson)...

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 04, 2011, 01:21:24 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 03, 2011, 05:27:42 PM
But my first impression of Brian, after listening to those three CDs is that he belongs in the Mahler school of symphonists--

I've never had the courage to say that but I've thought it for years. It seems to me perfectly logical to love both composers for similiar reasons...I mean even beyond the surface similiarities (the brassy marches, the sudden change of moods, etc).

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 04, 2011, 01:24:34 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 04, 2011, 01:16:56 AM
I beg to differ. Johann and I make quite a trendy little cult. Quite exclusive too  ;D

We're the AA - Albéric Anonymous.


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 04, 2011, 01:17:50 AM
Suicidal (Pettersson)...


Which makes a 'flourishing Pettersson Society' a contradiction.


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 04, 2011, 01:21:24 AM
I've never had the courage to say that but I've thought it for years. It seems to me perfectly logical to love both composers for similiar reasons...I mean even beyond the surface similiarities (the brassy marches, the sudden change of moods, etc).


Same here.



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 04, 2011, 01:26:41 AM
So now I know why I find this composer so difficult...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 04, 2011, 02:08:11 AM
Hm, I understand a Mahler/Brian connection, although stylistically I think that Brian and Bruckner have more in common; block composition, sudden silences...

Also, I'm not necessarily comfortable with the association between Brian and Mahler. Maybe part of the reason for this is that I've had trouble accepting Mahler's originality (maybe up to and including the seventh symphony) since hearing Hans Rott's symphony in E, that was composed some 7 years before Mahler's first. Rott's music, studied by Mahler following Rott's death in 1884 contains material (melodies, harmonies and rhythms) that are unnervingly close to what appears in several Mahler symphonies; 1-3, 5, 7. Since I first heard Rott's symphony some 20 years ago - hearing the scherzo for the first time made my jaw drop with how close to Mahler it is - I've never really been sure whether Mahler's references to the Rott symphony were intended as homage to his erstwhile friend, or perhaps something a little less altruistic. Beyond occasional allusions to a Mahlerian sound-world in parts of the Gothic and symphonies such as the 11th, (and Wagner in the 2nd) Brian is pretty much his own man.

What does the team think?

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 04, 2011, 02:30:40 AM
Rott's symphony and the Mahler First are indeed extremely close. I think the young Mahler was in awe of Rott and when he died 'assimilated' him in a sense. After the First, though, I think Mahler's whole development as a symphonist follows its own, very original logic.


Bruckner and Brian certainly have things in common - the silences, as you say, the block composition, the monumentality, and both of them being organists, which influences their writing for the orchestra... But I think those similarities are outward. Brian is more Mahlerian in the fragmentation, the polyphony, the bizarrerie, the changing tack. Though he isn't as neurotic and heart-on-sleeve as Mahler. That's what English about him, I guess.


What do the others think?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 04, 2011, 02:50:29 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 04, 2011, 02:08:11 AM
I've had trouble accepting Mahler's originality (maybe up to and including the seventh symphony) since hearing Hans Rott's symphony in E...

Obviously Mahler borrowed a few themes from Rott. What he did with those themes, though, is strikingly different. When I listen to the Rott Symphony, I don't hear Mahler so much as I hear Brahms, Bruckner, Smetana, Wagner and, interestingly, a pre-echo of Franz Schmidt. Mahler borrowed liberally from other composers, too, and from popular music, but in the end it always sounds like Mahler: quite original. That originality is one reason the public and critics had a hard time accepting his music during his lifetime.


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 04, 2011, 03:17:16 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 04, 2011, 02:30:40 AM
Rott's symphony and the Mahler First are indeed extremely close. I think the young Mahler was in awe of Rott and when he died 'assimilated' him in a sense. After the First, though, I think Mahler's whole development as a symphonist follows its own, very original logic.


Bruckner and Brian certainly have things in common - the silences, as you say, the block composition, the monumentality, and both of them being organists, which influences their writing for the orchestra... But I think those similarities are outward. Brian is more Mahlerian in the fragmentation, the polyphony, the bizarrerie, the changing tack. Though he isn't as neurotic and heart-on-sleeve as Mahler. That's what English about him, I guess.


What do the others think?
I might have to leave this forum. Brucker. Here is my beautifully crafted critical review of his work: ****** Bruckner. Vertical blocks. No horizontal development. Stops and starts. Thick horrid fat church organ sound. Orchestration even worse than Franck (was he an organist too?). His music sounds like an obese Sumo wrestler walking through treacle. Predictable (tremolando strings to start and then a few fanfares - there's a surprise). Symphonic "Paint by Numbers". Long. Boring. Annoying. His music all sounds much the same. Horrible to play. Embarrassing to listen to. So many editions you never seem to hear the stuff played the same twice. All that pompous twaddle about the cymbal clash in the 7th. It's a cymbal clash - get over it. I can't think of any musicians that I know that have a good word to say about this composer. I've tried, I really have. I've got 4 Bruckner cycles on the shelf. There are 2 minute patches when I think "I like this" but these patches are set in the context of a 60 minute horror show. He's the only composer that makes Wagner (Mr. Brevity) and his Ring sound concise. Other than that he's not so bad. Give me HB and his inconsistency any day. I guess that I have now destroyed any lingering hope of being welcomed into the Bruckner Society. I'm devastated.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 04, 2011, 03:19:09 AM
I haven't spent as long a time listening to both composers as many, but...

Mahler perfectly balances everything, the density of ideas, the structure of his movements, it is an intellectual kind of composing, and the emotion is enhanced by the way he works the surface material into shape. An overall sense of nervousness might be buried deep in his compositional style, but in a work like the 6th, it is more overtly gut-wrenching because of the surface details. I don't see anything fundimentally different from the 6th, to the quixotic 7th or the mecurial 5th. Brian's music can sometimes be imbalanced, and where it is impulsive it seems to stem more from his gut feeling on how the work was to be written, rather than the final embelishment. Emotion in Brian often stems from the structure or velocity of the work rather than what is written on top.

Where Mahler makes questionable decisions compared to his more standard contemporaries, he can be proven again and again to have made a "correct" choice in each of his methods. In a sense, Brian's entire symphonic style is an "incorrect choice", not only mechanically, but also conceptually. Mahler wrote nine long-pondered symphonies which can be related to each other in a Beethovenian sense, Brian wrote a huge burst of small symphonies whose only relation to each other can be seen in a couple of "groupings". It is almost a Stravinskian art for the sake of art type of method being followed.

In this conceptual sense I view them as opposites, and while Brian's music could be seen as a microcosm of Mahler's at times, I feel that this is just one of his many influences rather than an overriding one. Mahler's "difficulties" in his mood swings over long movements are almost aloof, Brian's are somewhat more feral and can arrive in bursts of energy which can feel as though they are propelling the work forward, in a motoric, vehicular sense. Mahler's expansive tapestries are more like the surface of an ocean. I think that those seperate styles of composing appear comparable almost by coincidence. Even in the first four symphonies, it is remarkable how the influence of Mahler doesn't necessarily produce works that sound all that much like his music in style or temperament. The first part of the Gothic sounds remarkably close to parts of his 6th, which is quite a mature work, the second part doesn't seem to match up with anything Mahler wrote. I suppose at a stretch the 3rd might have mild "Wunderhorn" qualities, but these are so scant as to perhaps be my imagination.

Have you ever felt that the less you know about a subject, the more words you require to grasp towards understanding? ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 04, 2011, 03:19:59 AM
Nice demolition job, John. Perhaps Bruckner is more fun for a listener than for a player. I love his symphonies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 04, 2011, 03:29:32 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 04, 2011, 03:19:59 AM
Nice demolition job, John. Perhaps Bruckner is more fun for a listener than for a player. I love his symphonies.
Johan, I used to admire you ;D ;D ;D ;D
Brian is mercurial. Bruckner is a sloth. Brian uses silences that make you think "blimey, what next?". Bruckner uses silences because that's his predictable formula - he does it all the time so there's no surprise element. Had Bruckner been born outside of Germany/Austria I honestly think that he would have been derided and ignored. I joke not. It's fat and charmless. A bit like me this morning. Bruckner, the thinking man's James Last.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 04, 2011, 03:32:24 AM
Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on December 04, 2011, 03:19:09 AM
I haven't spent as long a time listening to both composers as many, but...

Mahler perfectly balances everything, the density of ideas, the structure of his movements, it is an intellectual kind of composing, and the emotion is enhanced by the way he works the surface material into shape. An overall sense of nervousness might be buried deep in his compositional style, but in a work like the 6th, it is more overtly gut-wrenching because of the surface details. I don't see anything fundimentally different from the 6th, to the quixotic 7th or the mecurial 5th. Brian's music can sometimes be imbalanced, and where it is impulsive it seems to stem more from his gut feeling on how the work was to be written, rather than the final embelishment. Emotion in Brian often stems from the structure or velocity of the work rather than what is written on top.

Where Mahler makes questionable decisions compared to his more standard contemporaries, he can be proven again and again to have made a "correct" choice in each of his methods. In a sense, Brian's entire symphonic style is an "incorrect choice", not only mechanically, but also conceptually. Mahler wrote nine long-pondered symphonies which can be related to each other in a Beethovenian sense, Brian wrote a huge burst of small symphonies whose only relation to each other can be seen in a couple of "groupings". It is almost a Stravinskian art for the sake of art type of method being followed.

In this conceptual sense I view them as opposites, and while Brian's music could be seen as a microcosm of Mahler's at times, I feel that this is just one of his many influences rather than an overriding one. Mahler's "difficulties" in his mood swings over long movements are almost aloof, Brian's are somewhat more feral and can arrive in bursts of energy which can feel as though they are propelling the work forward, in a motoric, vehicular sense. Mahler's expansive tapestries are more like the surface of an ocean. I think that those seperate styles of composing appear comparable almost by coincidence. Even in the first four symphonies, it is remarkable how the influence of Mahler doesn't necessarily produce works that sound all that much like his music in style or temperament. The first part of the Gothic sounds remarkably close to parts of his 6th, which is quite a mature work, the second part doesn't seem to match up with anything Mahler wrote. I suppose at a stretch the 3rd might have mild "Wunderhorn" qualities, but these are so scant as to perhaps be my imagination.


Very perspicacious, Sara! I have never said it here, but I think Brian was a journalist in more ways than is commonly thought of. His later symphonies are his journal, or his mental diary. His composing style has an improvisatory quality. He wrote quickly, obeying the spur of the moment. The logic underlying the symphonies is emotional. Brian builds by using sharp contrasts, they create and structure musical time. Mahler is more nineteenth-century in the way sonata form is still there, but its time-scale has become gigantic, in the wake of Wagner and Bruckner. Adorno compared Mahler's symphonies to novels. And yes, Mahler was a great lover of Dostoevsky, with whom he shares the intensity and the darkness. Brian is more of a modernist. I have always seen similarities between the ellipsis in Brian's symphonies and the ellipsis-by-punning in Joyce's Finnegans Wake.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 04, 2011, 03:33:50 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 04, 2011, 03:29:32 AM
Bruckner, the thinking man's James Last.


Put-down of the Day.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 04, 2011, 03:41:14 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 04, 2011, 03:33:50 AM

Put-down of the Day.  :D

Well, at least he admits we Bruckner lovers are "thinking" men.  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 04, 2011, 03:45:52 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 04, 2011, 03:41:14 AM
Well, at least he admits we Bruckner lovers are "thinking" men.  ;D


:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 04, 2011, 03:51:29 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 04, 2011, 03:33:50 AM

Put-down of the Day.  :D
Maybe but we've got hours left. It's still early afternoon. Could still be beaten. Let's talk about Khachaturian and Hovhaness......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on December 04, 2011, 06:50:38 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 04, 2011, 03:29:32 AM
Bruckner, the thinking man's James Last.

;D No comment.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Superhorn on December 04, 2011, 07:14:13 AM
   Maybe we should call this thread "The Life Of Brian " !
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 04, 2011, 07:18:59 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on December 04, 2011, 07:14:13 AM
   Maybe we should call this thread "The Life Of Brian " !

Excellent suggestion  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 04, 2011, 07:31:24 AM
Quote from: Superhorn on December 04, 2011, 07:14:13 AM
   Maybe we should call this thread "The Life Of Brian " !
Ken Russell was going to make a film about HB with this very same title. Shame that it won't happen now......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 04, 2011, 07:50:22 AM
(http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/1368/scan10027j.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-12-04

This is a scan of THE Delius cd (my own!) that has 'enjoyed' the most return visits to my cd player. I like the selection. Some of these pieces are not you're typical Delius ie,they have noisy bits & quite allot seems to happen (for Delius!). North Country Sketches is often cited as music for people who think they don't like Delius (except Dundonnell*,of course,who doesn't like him,anyway! ;D) Eventyr is the one with the famous 'shouts',a piece,which in my humble opinion,makes Grieg sound a bit tame,by comparison! Life's Dance is one of my favourites & rather underrated in my opinion. It goes very well with the Dance Rhapsody No 1 & it's companions,in my opinion. A very well chosen selection! Of course,why I'm posting this in a Brian thread is probably open to debate,but HB liked Delius** & so does Johan,so there! :D

Incidentally,that could be a bit of egg on the top right hand side of the jewel case? :o

False alarm. It's just a reflection in the monitor!



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 04, 2011, 09:32:13 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 04, 2011, 07:50:22 AM
(http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/1368/scan10027j.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2011-12-04

This is a scan of THE Delius cd (my own!) that has 'enjoyed' the most return visits to my cd player. I like the selection. Some of these pieces are not you're typical Delius ie,they have noisy bits & quite allot seems to happen (for Delius!). North Country Sketches is often cited as music for people who think they don't like Delius (except Dundonnell*,of course,who doesn't like him,anyway! ;D) Eventyr is the one with the famous 'shouts',a piece,which in my humble opinion,makes Grieg sound a bit tame,by comparison! Life's Dance is one of my favourites & rather underrated in my opinion. It goes very well with the Dance Rhapsody No 1 & it's companions,in my opinion. A very well chosen selection! Of course,why I'm posting this in a Brian thread is probably open to debate,but HB liked Delius** & so does Johan,so there! :D

Incidentally,that could be a bit of egg on the top right hand side of the jewel case? :o

False alarm. It's just a reflection in the monitor!
And so do I. This is a good CD but not quite in the Beecham/Barbirolli class in my humble opinion. PS Have you had a new scanner for an early Christmas present?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 04, 2011, 09:38:25 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 04, 2011, 09:32:13 AM
And so do I. This is a good CD but not quite in the Beecham/Barbirolli class in my humble opinion. PS Have you had a new scanner for an early Christmas present?

Mackerras easily outclasses Beecham, Barbirolli, and Groves IMHO.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 04, 2011, 09:46:05 AM
That was egg was it? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 04, 2011, 10:38:01 AM
Groves easily outclasses Beecham,Barbirolli & Mackerras IMHO! I'm joking of course!!!!  ;D Thank you for your humble opinions (what is this,Charlie Chan?). I would be the last person to say that anything on this cd is as good as Beecham,Mackerras or Barbirolli. I just like the selection on this cd & I personally enjoy the interpretations,even if they're not up there with the podium gods. I think Groves was a pretty good conductor & a bit underrated,although as underrated conductors go I wouldn't put him in the Bryden Thomson (a favourite of mine) or Gibson class,but I think he did a lot for British music Anyway,in Groves's defence,Beechams approach to Eventyr is way too refined,not to mention those posh 'shouts'! 'Lifes Dance',a rare piece, is atypical of Delius,anyway, & I think the temperament & vigour of the piece benefits from Groves muscular approach.
Still,at least you didn't bring in any references to Sumo wrestlers or James Last,this time,John! :o

NB: No,it's ancient old Canon scanner & probably a little overused at the moment!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 04, 2011, 03:32:53 PM
A final track of applause lasting nearly nine minutes isn't excessive after a symphonic expanse of an hour and three quarters. As ideas tumble forth in Havergal Brian's epic scheme, you cannot help admiring his fervour in getting it all down on paper. It remains one of the oddities of the English symphonic repertoire, but Martyn Brabbins and his legions of players and singers do it proud.

Geoffrey Norris in The Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalcdreviews/8928715/Havergal-Brian-Symphony-No-1-Gothic-Soloists-Choirs-CD-review.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalcdreviews/8928715/Havergal-Brian-Symphony-No-1-Gothic-Soloists-Choirs-CD-review.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on December 04, 2011, 05:52:51 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 04, 2011, 02:50:29 AM
Obviously Mahler borrowed a few themes from Rott. What he did with those themes, though, is strikingly different. When I listen to the Rott Symphony, I don't hear Mahler so much as I hear Brahms, Bruckner, Smetana, Wagner and, interestingly, a pre-echo of Franz Schmidt. Mahler borrowed liberally from other composers, too, and from popular music, but in the end it always sounds like Mahler: quite original. That originality is one reason the public and critics had a hard time accepting his music during his lifetime.


Sarge

Yes, to the Brahms.  When I listened to Rott's symphony I felt like I was listening to second rate Brahms--stuff the real Brahms might have stuck in a side drawer in the hopes of coming back to it later and trying to do it better.  Mahler may have borrowed some things from Rott, but he did things with them that Rott didn't even come close to doing.  Perhaps if Rott had lived a full lifespan he might have developed--it certainly would have been an interesting influence on Mahler--but as it stands I find Rott's Symphony one of the less interesting pieces of late 19th century music.

I'm not so down on Bruckner as John is--I can listen to him a symphony at a time without harming my sanity--but I do feel sometimes as if he wrote the same symphony in nine different ways, rather than nine symphonies totally different from each other.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 04, 2011, 06:30:36 PM
Bruckner's music takes me as near to Heaven as I am ever likely to get ;D

It is as simple as that :)

When I wrote that Mahler was "grossly over-rated" I overstated the case, of course. He WAS a great composer of real genius and his symphonies and vocal music are both inspired and inspiring. What I object to, what really, really annoys me is that it seems as though every conductor on the planet believes that it is impossible to establish his credentials as a conductor of substance without conducting and indeed recording at least one Mahler symphony. So we have a never-ending flood of new Mahler recordings pouring forth every month. This, to my mind, is utterly pointless excess, when there are so many other good(not necessarily great, but certainly eminently worthy) composers whose music is ignored or seldom heard.

I heard very recently about two quite eminent British conductors-now both sadly deceased-who were well-known for their enterprise in promoting and conducting British music but in the so-called "standard repertoire" were regarded with considerable disdain by orchestral musicians. They knew without any shadow of doubt that these conductors were largely going through the motions with such pieces, had nothing to add to the interpretation and indeed got through the rehearsals so quickly that they could then let the orchestra off early to get to the pub-which certainly aided their popularity but not the professional esteem in which they should have been held.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on December 04, 2011, 07:14:55 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 04, 2011, 06:30:36 PM
Bruckner's music takes me as near to Heaven as I am ever likely to get ;D

It is as simple as that :)

When I wrote that Mahler was "grossly over-rated" I overstated the case, of course. He WAS a great composer of real genius and his symphonies and vocal music are both inspired and inspiring. What I object to, what really, really annoys me is that it seems as though every conductor on the planet believes that it is impossible to establish his credentials as a conductor of substance without conducting and indeed recording at least one Mahler symphony. So we have a never-ending flood of new Mahler recordings pouring forth every month. This, to my mind, is utterly pointless excess, when there are so many other good(not necessarily great, but certainly eminently worthy) composers whose music is ignored or seldom heard.


I can't see that Bruckner has anything near that effect on me.  I suppose it's just that I don't have an emotional connection with his music.

I can understand the wariness about too many Mahler recordings.  I've actually reached saturation with him now--that is, I've got  several cycles and numerous one-offs or less than cycles, enough that I am less tempted to go see what someone else has done with the music.

However, it strikes me that these conductors who don't have the imagination to not record Mahler might not have enough to get people interested in those relatively unknown composers  if they did record them.  And while a less than inspired recording of Mahler (or Bruckner or Beethoven or any of the heavyweights) would not be a death knell for Mahler, etc. a less than inspired recording of one of these unknowns could be enough to kill any interest in him among the musical public.  So if they have to damage someone, let them damage Mahler.  He can take it.

I have, btw, found the perfect present for you and I, if anyone wants to give us something this Christmas.
[asin]B005RXKKQO[/asin]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on December 04, 2011, 08:03:57 PM
The new Hyperion Gothic is the top seller at MDT:

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/pages/home/default.asp

Good news :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 04, 2011, 10:56:14 PM
Yes, it is!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 05, 2011, 01:28:19 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 04, 2011, 06:30:36 PM
Bruckner's music takes me as near to Heaven as I am ever likely to get ;D

It is as simple as that :)

If that's the case I'm really pleased that I have no religion and don't believe in heaven. If I did believe in heaven then it wouldn't be music that took me there. There are other things that might, though. I'd better not go on any further........... ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2011, 01:34:57 AM
There is no shame in loving the Teletubbies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 05, 2011, 01:35:59 AM
Excellent news! It's a pity that Geoffrey Norris couldn't have written a few more words in his review.

I agree with Dundonnell about Bruckner; he was one of that handful in the nineteenth century that really developed the symphonic process. It's often stated that Mahler was influenced by Schoenbergian principles towards the end of his life (specfically symphonies 9 and 10), but Bruckner had got there ten years beforehand - just listen to the Schoenbergian-type clusters in Bruckner's ninth. I could write a book. (Oh; I have done!   :D )

For those who are hyper-saturated with Mahler recordings, have a look at these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uJnc5lYx6E and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjh2pucllRQ&feature=related) - videos of the New England Conservatory Philharmonia under Hugh Wolff in September this year, playing what may well be the very first version of his first symphony, based on a manuscript used at the Hungarian premiere in 1889, now kept in Canada. The final movement is significantly different, the recapitulation initiating with a repeat of the movement's opening rather than the viola growls that we are used to.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2011, 01:37:39 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 05, 2011, 01:35:59 AM
Excellent news! It's a pity that Geoffrey Norris couldn't have written a few more words in his review.

I agree with Dundonnell about Bruckner; he was one of that handful in the nineteenth century that really developed the symphonic process. It's often stated that Mahler was influenced by Schoenbergian principles towards the end of his life (specfically symphonies 9 and 10), but Bruckner had got there ten years beforehand - just listen to the Schoenbergian-type clusters in Bruckner's ninth. I could write a book. (Oh; I have done!   :D )

For those who are hyper-saturated with Mahler recordings, have a look at these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uJnc5lYx6E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uJnc5lYx6E) and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjh2pucllRQ&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjh2pucllRQ&feature=related)) - videos of the New England Conservatory Philharmonia under Hugh Wolff in September this year, playing what may well be the very first version of his first symphony, based on a manuscript used at the Hungarian premiere in 1889, now kept in Canada. The final movement is significantly different, the recapitulation initiating with a repeat of the movement's opening rather than the viola growls that we are used to.

;)


Interesting link. Will listen. At first I read Hugo Wolf, though...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 05, 2011, 02:09:06 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2011, 01:34:57 AM
There is no shame in loving the Teletubbies.
I prefer Laa-Laa and Po to Bruckner. Not so sure about Tinky Winky and Dipsy.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 05, 2011, 03:39:44 AM
"The healing forces of the music of Hector Berlioz!"
I wonder what healing forces the music of Havergal Brian contains?

http://www.germanmedicine.net/en/musicberlioz.html (http://www.germanmedicine.net/en/musicberlioz.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2011, 03:42:07 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 05, 2011, 03:39:44 AM
"The healing forces of the music of Hector Berlioz!"

http://www.germanmedicine.net/en/musicberlioz.html (http://www.germanmedicine.net/en/musicberlioz.html)


"In this area of our website you will find recommendations for recordings of the music of Hector Berlioz - chosen primarily according to the criteria if the musicians served the composer's creation unselfishly thereby passing on the original divine inspiration of the composer in the purest possible way."


:o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2011, 04:35:22 AM
I listened to that early version of Mahler's First - it is very clear that the Finale posed the biggest problem. From the twentieth minute in the second video onwards the music has a very different and rather chaotic structure.


Quite instructive!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 05, 2011, 04:56:29 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2011, 03:42:07 AM

"In this area of our website you will find recommendations for recordings of the music of Hector Berlioz - chosen primarily according to the criteria if the musicians served the composer's creation unselfishly thereby passing on the original divine inspiration of the composer in the purest possible way."


:o ;D
Is it just in Delph or is there a terrible smell of bulls**t in the air?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 05, 2011, 06:19:26 AM
I wonder what healing 'forces' Khatchaturian has? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 05, 2011, 07:31:24 AM
Actually,I shouldn't knock old Aram. As a young man I used to regularly brain my mother with Lps of Gayaneh (the famous RCA 2Lp set),Maskarade,the Symphonies & highlights from Spartacus,at full throttle. That and Gliere's Ilya Murometz (Unicorn),the Gothic Symphony......and Das Siegeslied with Poole conducting. The whole house was literally quaking!!!!
Find the famous Armenian a tad too noisy & unsubtle now,but I still love Brian & Gliere,although Das Siegeslied doesn't get played QUITE as much!
I also play my music quietly & on headphones!!! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2011, 07:35:44 AM
I like Glière's Third a lot, in the Downes performance especially. And Khatchaturian's Second is a really good war symphony and has its admirers on this board (yes!)


Has anyone noticed here that the Toccata Vol. 2 is in the spotlight, too, at MDT?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 05, 2011, 09:22:22 AM
I must admit I DO quite like that one (Khatchaturian 2),
Just looking at the MDT site now. Quite a bit about it there. Fanfare likes it & Musicweb. That review hasn't put up yet,has it (on Musicweb)?
(The sound quality is much fuller isn't,it's not just my ears?)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 05, 2011, 10:26:18 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2011, 07:35:44 AM
I like Glière's Third a lot, in the Downes performance especially. And Khatchaturian's Second is a really good war symphony and has its admirers on this board (yes!)


Has anyone noticed here that the Toccata Vol. 2 is in the spotlight, too, at MDT?
I like the Delos recording of Gliere 2. I don't mind No.3 but it's rather thin content maybe doesn't warrant such a length. I personally like the old Scherchen/Westminster(Pye Nixa) version which has been superbly remastered by David Gideon at Rediscovery. Well worth buying as a download. See my link below - scroll down the list to RD025 and then click the link. Only 5 US dollars (£3.50 via Paypal) and it runs for nearly 80 mins. It's mono but good mono. I've done a couple of restorations for Rediscovery and they have some excellent goodies from the past including an entirely free of charge list of downloads called Paperback Classics. I don't wish to comment on Khachaturian at this moment in time.
http://www.rediscovery.us/list.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 05, 2011, 10:59:43 AM
The Gothic enters the UK Specialist Classical Music chart at no. 16! Go Brabbins!

John, which instrument did you play in the LSSO?

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2011, 11:04:22 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 05, 2011, 10:59:43 AM
The Gothic enters the UK Specialist Classical Music chart at no. 16! Go Brabbins!


:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 05, 2011, 12:03:42 PM
The Gothic up from last week to No 16! All we need are Pans People! :o
But,maybe not! :D
I prefer No 2 (to Ilya),much as I love that OTHER blockbuster!. Thanks for the link,John. I also rather like the 1st. It's certainly allot better than Rimsky Korsakov's efforts in the genre,unless you count 'Antar'?

Wonderful news,Johan!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 05, 2011, 12:22:24 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 05, 2011, 10:59:43 AM
The Gothic enters the UK Specialist Classical Music chart at no. 16! Go Brabbins!

John, which instrument did you play in the LSSO?

;)
I was a rank and file violinist. Mainly rank ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2011, 12:28:21 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 05, 2011, 12:22:24 PM
I was a rank and file violinist. Mainly rank ;D

Yeah, but you probably "ranked" with the best of them  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2011, 12:30:33 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 05, 2011, 12:22:24 PM
I was a rank and file violinist. Mainly rank ;D


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 05, 2011, 12:28:21 PM
Yeah, but you probably "ranked" with the best of them  :D


I'll be "filing" those away for later use.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 05, 2011, 02:53:42 PM
I am keeping the Gothic as a Christmas present for myself ;D

I can wait ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2011, 02:55:23 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 05, 2011, 02:53:42 PM
I am keeping the Gothic as a Christmas present for myself ;D

I can wait ;D ;D


So can I... I'm following the same path. It'll be a Merry Gothic Christmas!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 05, 2011, 02:59:45 PM
Oh, so it is NOT a bad economy. It's just that people are giving themselves presents!

I've got to find myself a boxset as a present. The Gothic seems so ... tiny. Too bad the Complete Havergal Brian Opera Boxset is not available. I'd get that for myself in a minute. I've loved the bits I have heard and would love to own them all!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 05, 2011, 03:12:40 PM
Actually,I had a change of plan. I bought Brian Orch Wks Vol 2 from HMV & am thinking of an Xmas download for the Gothic. After,burning 65-70 cds,in the last few weeks, & upoading & downloading & uploading & downloading,I'm getting pretty used to this.
I won't be giving up on cassettes altogether. Once I can get round to squeezing through that tiny attic trapdoor (Eugene Tombs in the X Files would get through it) I will treat my cassette deck to that nice fm stereo ariel that's been propped up in the corner of the sitting room,for yonks!

A Havergal Brian Opera box set would be nice! (One day?)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2011, 03:14:20 PM
Quote from: springrite on December 05, 2011, 02:59:45 PM
Oh, so it is NOT a bad economy. It's just that people are giving themselves presents!

I've got to find myself a boxset as a present. The Gothic seems so ... tiny. Too bad the Complete Havergal Brian Opera Boxset is not available. I'd get that for myself in a minute. I've loved the bits I have heard and would love to own them all!


The mind boggles. But - who knows, perhaps I'll live long enough to see it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 05, 2011, 03:46:12 PM
And nice to see that one of my favourite places for getting new books,The Book Depository,is offering Havergal Brian on music Vol 1 at only £16.99,post free. So far the price has stayed my hand,but it's coming down. How much longer will I be able,or have a good reason,to resist?
 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2011, 03:48:19 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 05, 2011, 03:46:12 PM
And nice to see that one of my favourite places for getting new books,The Book Depository,is offering Havergal Brian on music Vol 1 at only £16.99,post free. So far the price has stayed my hand,but it's coming down. How much longer will I be able,or have a good reason,to resist?


I know The Book Depository. I recently ordered the 'autobiography' of Alan Partridge there (very funny, btw)...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 05, 2011, 03:58:42 PM
Not saying,I WILL be getting it from them! After all,I can get it straight from Toccata. But the B.D are always quick & the books are in good nick when they get to me. I got sick to death of sending back bargain price,post free,books from a certain extremely well known site. Shocking,really! I don't see why I should pay for dents,score marks,tears & even a missing dust jacket! Tut! Tut! And so many. I DO buy books from Sellers there,though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on December 05, 2011, 05:30:22 PM
Well, IT arrived today from MDT.  (I guess I'm one of those people who pushed it to the top of the MDT charts.)   I may possibly be the first paying nonMP3 American customer to have it in my greedy little hands.

I was quite impressed by it.   Not a bit of bombast in it, which, given the length and the number of performers, is rather impressive all by itself.  Favorite moments were the start of the fourth and fifth movements and the bass solo near the end of the sixth movement.  This is going to get a good many repeat listens from me.

I do have a question for those that were actually there: what was the big red thing behind the harps which shows rather prominently in the photo of the performance that's part of the CD packaging? One of the percussion thingies or something else entirely?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 05, 2011, 07:39:59 PM
That was the thunder machine, painted bright orange; a nine-sided drum containing heavy objects (rocks, wood, metal, not sure what!) that rumbled, thumped and thudded when it was rotated by means of a handle.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 05, 2011, 07:44:40 PM
There's your answer.....

but...I couldn't resist posting this again-

it is a wonderful memory for those of us lucky to have been there of an utterly memorable evening which we will never forget and of the thunderous, ecstatic reception from an audience made up, of course, if you are to believe Andrew Clements of totally deluded fools ;D ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oMxbxI3l18&feature=related

Courtesy of Johan's sister who took the footage :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on December 05, 2011, 07:55:18 PM
thanks for the answer.

I was a bit flabbergasted by one of the comments on that video--that someone could pick out the exact notes compared to the score.  I'm lucky if i can count the beat.  ONE two three ONE two three...oh, that must be a waltz (or a landler).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2011, 09:26:28 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 05, 2011, 07:39:59 PM
That was the thunder machine, painted bright orange; a nine-sided drum containing heavy objects (rocks, wood, metal, not sure what!) that rumbled, thumped and thudded when it was rotated by means of a handle.

Perhaps you could check with John G, Martyn, but I think that red tombola thing was the 'scarecrow' Brian asks for. A thunder machine is an existing instrument. The scarecrow had to be purpose-built for the concert.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 06, 2011, 12:29:43 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2011, 09:26:28 PM


Perhaps you could check with John G, Martyn, but I think that red tombola thing was the 'scarecrow' Brian asks for. A thunder machine is an existing instrument. The scarecrow had to be purpose-built for the concert.
And a very beautiful, lyrical one too. Please correct me if I'm totally wrong but the thunder machine used in Brian 10 isn't a machine at all, it's a huge sheet of upmarket Bacofoil that just gets shaken at the appropriate moment. The wind machine is a small black box with a handle on it that you turn and canvas being scraped inside the box sounds a bit like wind. Aren't things getting a bit mixed up here? I reckon there's 1) a thunder sheet 2) a wind machine and 3) that big orange tombola effort with bricks and rocks and other rubbish (violas etc) inside it (Thunder Machine/Scarecrow??). These must have taken 3 years at the RAM to master.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 06, 2011, 12:42:58 AM
You're correct in distinguishing the three, John. But thunder-sheet and thunder machine are, I think, synonymous. In German it's called a Donnermaschine, and Wagner and Strauss use it, if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on December 06, 2011, 01:01:15 AM
Martyn Brabbins was the conductor on the radio3 concert last night.
Immediately before the Zemlinsky there was an interesting chat about HB: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017ssqz
Then they played the Te Deum from the Hyperion Gothic; I was, again totally shattered by it.

There is an incredible amount of invention in Brian, it just doesn't stop. Absolutely unbelievable.

Add more cliches to taste.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 06, 2011, 01:12:07 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on December 06, 2011, 01:01:15 AM
Martyn Brabbins was the conductor on the radio3 concert last night.
Immediately before the Zemlinsky there was an interesting chat about HB: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017ssqz (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017ssqz)
Then they played the Te Deum from the Hyperion Gothic; I was, again totally shattered by it.

There is an incredible amount of invention in Brian, it just doesn't stop. Absolutely unbelievable.

Add more cliches to taste.


Around which minute does Brian start? You know?


Found it! Around 52 minutes in.


I'll capture the stream and put it up here.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 06, 2011, 01:34:45 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on December 06, 2011, 01:01:15 AM
Martyn Brabbins was the conductor on the radio3 concert last night.
Immediately before the Zemlinsky there was an interesting chat about HB: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017ssqz
Then they played the Te Deum from the Hyperion Gothic; I was, again totally shattered by it.

There is an incredible amount of invention in Brian, it just doesn't stop. Absolutely unbelievable.

Add more cliches to taste.
Brabbins also raves about the improved Hyperion sound vs the radio broadcast so I suppose I better buy it. He's clearly thrilled with the outcome and rightly so. This is GOOD music - I don't understand all the critical bashing. I bet Mahler would have enjoyed it immensely. I'm not a huge fan of choral music - I really dislike Mahler 8 -  but the Gothic has something about it. Doesn't it? It really should have been on the telly. By way of an aside, I still await the professional restoration of the CBS Psalm 23 LP that I've commissioned but it should be with me soon. The master tapes have gone missing so there is no chance of a proper CD release. I will share flacs as and when.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 06, 2011, 01:35:46 AM
PS the stream sounds fabulous!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 06, 2011, 02:10:54 AM
Here are the interview with Martyn Brabbins and the Gothic Te Deum:


http://www.mediafire.com/?mwb3ewab392yvcm (http://www.mediafire.com/?mwb3ewab392yvcm)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 06, 2011, 02:14:05 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 06, 2011, 02:10:54 AM
Here are the interview with Martyn Brabbins and the Gothic Te Deum:


http://www.mediafire.com/?mwb3ewab392yvcm (http://www.mediafire.com/?mwb3ewab392yvcm)
Beat me to it!! Good man.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 06, 2011, 04:54:36 AM
Johan,

My understanding is that Brian specifically did not want a thunder sheet (although that what has been used in previous performances) but specified his idea of a thunder machine, which was built for this performance. The 'scarecrow' was the birdscare - the multiple football-rattles that you hear in the final moments of the Judex and prior to the second 'non confundar'.

I think, anyway! I will confirm.

Talking of links: the Gothic appeared on Radio 3's Breakfast programme this morning as part of the Specialist Classical Chart roundup; the last 10 minutes or so of the 'te ergo quaesumus' was broadcast - here it is, starting 1 hour 50 minutes in. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b017t0ck/Breakfast_Tuesday_Petroc_Trelawny/

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 06, 2011, 04:58:16 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 05, 2011, 03:46:12 PM
And nice to see that one of my favourite places for getting new books,The Book Depository,is offering Havergal Brian on music Vol 1 at only £16.99,post free. So far the price has stayed my hand,but it's coming down. How much longer will I be able,or have a good reason,to resist?

I'll send you my old copy for free if you like - I'm not really the resale type. Paperback (I upgraded) but very good condition.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 06, 2011, 05:04:34 AM
Brianites the lunatic fringe?! The generous fringe!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 06, 2011, 06:46:10 AM
Here is a link to this morning's BBC 3 airing of the final minutes of The Gothic. Goosebump material.


http://www.mediafire.com/?oovk3qy0y1amp81 (http://www.mediafire.com/?oovk3qy0y1amp81)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 06, 2011, 07:25:10 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 06, 2011, 06:46:10 AM
Here is a link to this morning's BBC 3 airing of the final minutes of The Gothic. Goosebump material.


http://www.mediafire.com/?oovk3qy0y1amp81 (http://www.mediafire.com/?oovk3qy0y1amp81)
Sounds very good. Interesting to hear that it's in the specialist music category. What's that all about?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on December 06, 2011, 07:34:27 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 06, 2011, 07:25:10 AM
Sounds very good. Interesting to hear that it's in the specialist music category. What's that all about?

Not as interesting as it might be.

For all you pop pickers out there:    http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/r3chart
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 06, 2011, 07:43:19 AM
John,

I think that the 'specialist' category was created to separate out the kind of recordings that you see there, and that they don't get mixed up with all the crossover and compilation stuff that clogs up a more general chart, like it did when the whole concept was introduced a few years ago. Bit of a fudge, really.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 06, 2011, 07:59:33 AM
Update on the large orange construction on stage in the Gothic: it was a special 'rock-filled tombola' that was built to be part of the thunder machine; the other components were a thunder sheet and a big drum that were added for maximum effect. The birdscares were indeed the football rattles, of which there were three.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 06, 2011, 10:59:25 AM
Aaaah!...  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 06, 2011, 11:23:32 AM
I just compared the two bass solos - the one from the BBC stream and the one on the Hyperion CD. When you listen to the first phrase he sings (Fiat misericordia et cetera), does anyone else think it's different from what was sung on the night? I guess it must have been taken from the dress rehearsal...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 07, 2011, 05:50:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 06, 2011, 11:23:32 AM
I just compared the two bass solos - the one from the BBC stream and the one on the Hyperion CD. When you listen to the first phrase he sings (Fiat misericordia et cetera), does anyone else think it's different from what was sung on the night? I guess it must have been taken from the dress rehearsal...
I didn't even know that good old Havergal owned a Fiat.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 07, 2011, 05:55:03 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 07, 2011, 05:50:25 AM
I didn't even know that good old Havergal owned a Fiat.


And neither did he.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 07, 2011, 06:25:36 AM
I remember my father 'singing' Humber Sceptre Misericordia' when he had to top the b**** thing up every few yards with a can of water.It took about an hour to drive two miles. The Renault 4 was even worse;you could literally see the road though the floor. Three more holes & we could have put our feet through & legged it along  like Fred Flinstone! :(
On the plus side,we probably would have got home faster and fitter!
His cars are allot better nowadays,thankfully!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 07, 2011, 06:27:10 AM
We envied the pedestrians! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 07, 2011, 07:01:08 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 07, 2011, 07:58:01 AM
It was a Fiat worse than death...

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 07, 2011, 07:58:53 AM
* groan *  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 07, 2011, 10:52:39 AM
The way in which this thread can find the most obscure and unlikely byways in which to get completely separated from poor old HB never fail to flabber my gast, as good old Kenneth Williams used to say in 'Round the Horne'(or it might have been Kenneth Horne himself, of course).

.....see...there I go ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 07, 2011, 10:58:08 AM
I think this thread is very much in Brian's spirit. His music can veer off in surprising directions, too... !
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 08, 2011, 02:07:23 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 07, 2011, 10:52:39 AM
The way in which this thread can find the most obscure and unlikely byways in which to get completely separated from poor old HB never fail to flabber my gast, as good old Kenneth Williams used to say in 'Round the Horne'(or it might have been Kenneth Horne himself, of course).

.....see...there I go ;D ;D
Can I make an appeal to all members. For some reason Havergal Brian keeps cropping up on here. It's getting tedious. In the future, can we all please concentrate our efforts on Obscure and Unlikely byways. I thank you.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 09, 2011, 11:37:27 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 07, 2011, 10:52:39 AM
The way in which this thread can find the most obscure and unlikely byways in which to get completely separated from poor old HB never fail to flabber my gast, as good old Kenneth Williams used to say in 'Round the Horne'(or it might have been Kenneth Horne himself, of course).

.....see...there I go ;D ;D
My apologies,I mistook this for the Humber sceptre thead!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 09, 2011, 04:21:53 PM
Okay,back to Brian,as they say...................hopefully! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on December 09, 2011, 04:24:28 PM
Guess what arrived in the mail today!!!

...the copy I'm giving a friend for Christmas. My own copy I'm receiving from my parents for Christmas. So I have it in my hands but can't give it a hear until the 25th  :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 09, 2011, 05:58:31 PM
What exquisite torture.

Hang in there, hero.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 10, 2011, 07:08:31 AM
A FLAC download from Hyperion for £12.49!

Regarding the offer for Brian on Music. Thank you very much for this kind offer,'Lethe',but I  used my sisters book tokens to buy a new copy! :o (I found them in the kitchen cupboard when I was looking for the pliers! :o) This will take a while to absorb.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 10, 2011, 07:26:19 AM
Good luck with the book, and prepare for an overload of Elgar and Delius-related fanboyism from Brian ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 10, 2011, 07:52:50 AM
Uh-oh! I like S-O-OME Delius,but I just gave some of the concerto cds to a charity shop! :o Can't get anywhere with them!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 10, 2011, 07:53:58 AM
Hehe, I am not the biggest Delian, but Brian's enthusiasm is infecious and is a great read in and of itself - even if I don't intend to use it as listening notes for the pieces themselves.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 10, 2011, 09:46:40 AM
Poor Delius. And his music is so easy - just go with the flow, don't dissect this butterfly, and you'll experience pure beauty. But that's me...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on December 10, 2011, 10:14:55 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 10, 2011, 09:46:40 AM
Poor Delius. And his music is so easy - just go with the flow, don't dissect this butterfly, and you'll experience pure beauty. But that's me...

And me.

I'm totally unable to understand the conformist antipathy toward Delius. There's something wrong with you all ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 10, 2011, 10:38:48 AM
People say the same about Feldman, but I wouldn't expect everybody to love his music ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 10, 2011, 12:48:02 PM
Delius is not one of my very favourite but 'In a Summer Garden' is a magical piece and I also like 'Paris', 'North Country Sketches, 'Brigg Fair' and the Piano Concerto, as well as his 'Requiem' the ending of which I find very moving.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 10, 2011, 01:47:59 PM
Delius ??? ???

What sort of name is that for a Yorkshireman anyway? Geoff Boycott...yes. Fred Trueman...yes. Roy Hattersley...yes. William Hague...yes.

But "Delius"?  Even the "Fred" won't do ;D

Now...if he had been born in France that might have been better.

Sixteen Delius cds on my shelves.......and not a speck of dust on any of them ;D

What's this thread about again............... ::) ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 11, 2011, 03:55:24 AM
At this rate we're going to have to rename it the Brian & Delius thread. Or maybe Delius & Brian? Team them up like Morecambe & Wise.
Although,it could be worse,like,Little and Large! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 11, 2011, 03:57:59 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 10, 2011, 01:47:59 PM
Delius ??? ???

What sort of name is that for a Yorkshireman anyway? Geoff Boycott...yes. Fred Trueman...yes. Roy Hattersley...yes. William Hague...yes.

But "Delius"?  Even the "Fred" won't do ;D

Now...if he had been born in France that might have been better.
Let's not get into Gustav Holst! :o
It could get complicated!

Or,why I'm using a painting avatar on a music thread!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on December 11, 2011, 04:11:33 AM
One of HB's ancestors in the 18th century spelled his surname "Bryon"; sounds welsh to me :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 11, 2011, 04:30:57 AM
Roy Harris had Welsh ancestry. I remember reading this & trying to hear some 'Welshness' in his imposing & sadly neglected third symphony. Alas! But there could be something there,somewhere! Vaughan Williams is another one. According to Wikipedia 'Vaughan Williams is an unhyphenated double-barrelled name of Welsh origin". My parents are always telling me that he must have some Welsh ancestry. Mind you......we're only just over the border! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 11, 2011, 04:38:51 AM
Iechyd dda!

So we have all the right composers, but not necessarily in the right order...

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 11, 2011, 05:14:09 AM
With a good Yorkshire name like Harry Worth,Delius could have made a name for
himself doing laudable things like this in shop windows:
(http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/3769/tv050.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on December 11, 2011, 03:08:36 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 11, 2011, 04:38:51 AM
Iechyd dda!

So we have all the right composers, but not necessarily in the right order...

;)

Martyn,
Did you get my 5 December email about the 'Gothic' articles on my blog? In case it got in your spam filter, my answer was yes, go right ahead. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 11, 2011, 07:33:13 PM
Brian,

Apologies, I hadn't joined the dots ... the 'Brian' refers to you, not HB!

Yes, I did indeed, and thank you - I am having difficulty replying to anything via email as I'm travelling in the Middle East at the moment and reasonable connection is sporadic.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on December 11, 2011, 07:48:38 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 11, 2011, 07:33:13 PM
Apologies, I hadn't joined the dots ... the 'Brian' refers to you, not HB!

I've just addressed this issue in a Twitter post (http://twitter.com/#!/bgreinhart/status/146087938025992192). :)

Safe and happy travels - holiday or business? I'm half-Turkish and was in Istanbul this April, but haven't ventured any farther into the Middle East than Turkey.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 11, 2011, 09:39:04 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 11, 2011, 04:30:57 AM
Roy Harris had Welsh ancestry. I remember reading this & trying to hear some 'Welshness' in his imposing & sadly neglected third symphony. Alas! But there could be something there,somewhere! Vaughan Williams is another one. According to Wikipedia 'Vaughan Williams is an unhyphenated double-barrelled name of Welsh origin". My parents are always telling me that he must have some Welsh ancestry. Mind you......we're only just over the border! :o

I have a good bit of Welsh ancestry having the surnames Powell and Pierce in my family history.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on December 12, 2011, 06:38:21 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 11, 2011, 07:33:13 PM
I am having difficulty replying to anything via email as I'm travelling in the Middle East at the moment and reasonable connection is sporadic.

Lack of reasonable connection seems to be a normal state in the Middle East....and not just in matters cybernetic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 13, 2011, 01:01:39 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 12, 2011, 06:38:21 PM
Lack of reasonable connection seems to be a normal state in the Middle East....and not just in matters cybernetic.
My idea of the Middle East is Lincolnshire.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 13, 2011, 04:27:19 AM
<guffaw>You need to get out more, John!</guffaw>

:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 13, 2011, 05:56:49 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 13, 2011, 04:27:19 AM
<guffaw>You need to get out more, John!</guffaw>

:D
I went to the Far East once. Lowestoft. Not very impressed to be honest.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 13, 2011, 10:48:35 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 11, 2011, 09:39:04 PM
I have a good bit of Welsh ancestry having the surnames Powell and Pierce in my family history.
Hm! I wonder what part of Wales they hailed from MI? Wales is always labelled a small country & physically,I suppose it is. But as someone who detests any kind of travel,it always feels like pretty vast to me. I mean,Tenby? That's like going to Outer Mongolia as far as I'm concerned (and s-o-o touristy,when you get there,unlike Outer Mongolia?).

By the way,it's nice to be back here after my sojourn at the Roy Harris thread. Although,I haven't quite got away,completely. I've got his Concerto for two Piano's & orchestra on the old Sennheiser Cordless headphones.

NB: I see it's pouring with rain outside,as usual! I love it here!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 13, 2011, 04:47:09 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 13, 2011, 10:48:35 AM
NB: I see it's pouring with rain outside,as usual! I love it here!

Same, hehe. As a rule of thumb, when I click the house door closed, and it still blows open unless I lock it - this is perhaps a sign that the weather doesn't want me outside today :P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 14, 2011, 04:11:33 AM
I don't mind too much actually. It keeps the neighbours & their yappy dog indoors :)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 14, 2011, 05:06:14 AM
Quote from the new issue of that wonderful(not) magazine "The Gramophone"):

"I'm glad I had an opportunity to experience this leviathan live but I'll remember it with mixed feelings. Certainly it gives one a greater appreciation of Mahler's Eighth-a minnow by comparison but indubitably the work of the greater genius. And it means, now that my generation has had 'our' Gothic at the Albert Hall....that it now doesn't need to be resuscitated for another 30 years or so. In fact, I can honestly say that I've never enjoyed a second-rate piece of music so much"

How can people write such rubbish ??? ??? And how dare the writer(a Sub-Editor of the magazine) suggest that that should be that for another 30 years thereby denying so many others to experience a live performance of the work >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 14, 2011, 05:08:51 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 14, 2011, 05:06:14 AM
How can people write such rubbish ??? ???

Wish I knew the answer to this probing question, mon cher.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 14, 2011, 05:09:13 AM
Indeed,lucky old (selfish) HIM! What about that packed hall full of people that really enjoyed it? Tough luck to them,eh?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 14, 2011, 05:23:59 AM
On a more positive note,the front inside cover of the December IRR magazine is emblazoned with a massive,whole page ad from Hyperion advertising their release of the Gothic & a blurb about the sell out concert to go with it.

I notice,in the same Magazine,with respect to Dundonnell's comments about Delius's name;an IRR critic's observation (not an exact quote!) that George Onslow had a name like a Yorkshire butcher!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 14, 2011, 05:37:11 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 14, 2011, 05:06:14 AM
Quote from the new issue of that wonderful(not) magazine "The Gramophone"):

"I'm glad I had an opportunity to experience this leviathan live but I'll remember it with mixed feelings. Certainly it gives one a greater appreciation of Mahler's Eighth-a minnow by comparison but indubitably the work of the greater genius. And it means, now that my generation has had 'our' Gothic at the Albert Hall....that it now doesn't need to be resuscitated for another 30 years or so. In fact, I can honestly say that I've never enjoyed a second-rate piece of music so much"

How can people write such rubbish ??? ??? And how dare the writer(a Sub-Editor of the magazine) suggest that that should be that for another 30 years thereby denying so many others to experience a live performance of the work >:(

Suppose you had wanted to be at the Proms performance but had not been lucky enough to get a ticket within the first 12 hours of booking(by which time it had sold out) or couldn't travel to London to stand in the auditorium ??? ??? Suppose you live in another country and couldn't afford to travel to Britain(or to Australia for the Brisbane performance) ??? ???

This is so typically and offensively a London/South of England-centric comment written by someone who, again so sadly typically, writes without thinking through the implications of the thought >:( >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 14, 2011, 05:55:16 AM
I'm glad I cancelled that rag. To think of the time I spent poring over it as a youngster. All hail to IRR! A rare case of dumbing up instead of dumbing down. As to Mahlers eighth,I don't like comparisons either,but the eighth is not one of my favourites. I think his earlier efforts were more inspired (and less gloomy!). The Gothic seems more varied. More please!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on December 14, 2011, 05:52:30 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 14, 2011, 05:06:14 AM
Quote from the new issue of that wonderful(not) magazine "The Gramophone"):

"I'm glad I had an opportunity to experience this leviathan live but I'll remember it with mixed feelings. Certainly it gives one a greater appreciation of Mahler's Eighth-a minnow by comparison but indubitably the work of the greater genius. And it means, now that my generation has had 'our' Gothic at the Albert Hall....that it now doesn't need to be resuscitated for another 30 years or so. In fact, I can honestly say that I've never enjoyed a second-rate piece of music so much"

How can people write such rubbish ??? ??? And how dare the writer(a Sub-Editor of the magazine) suggest that that should be that for another 30 years thereby denying so many others to experience a live performance of the work >:(

It could be worse.  At least he admitted that he enjoyed it. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on December 14, 2011, 06:04:43 PM
Poking around the Classics Today site to see if they've gotten around to reviewing the Hyperion release (they haven't) I discovered David Hurwitz's reviews of the prior recordings.  Now I have to wonder what line he'll use to replace "the adult population of Bratislava" quip he apparently liked so much he recycled it into his review of the Boult Testament recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on December 14, 2011, 06:27:11 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 14, 2011, 05:55:16 AMAs to Mahlers eighth,I don't like comparisons either,

Am I crazy for thinking the Mahler Third a more satisfying comparison?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 14, 2011, 07:50:22 PM
Quote from: Brian on December 14, 2011, 06:27:11 PM
Am I crazy for thinking the Mahler Third a more satisfying comparison?

No, because essentially Mahler's 3rd is more symphonic in scope than the 8th and the same applies to Brian's Gothic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 15, 2011, 05:40:28 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 14, 2011, 07:50:22 PM
No, because essentially Mahler's 3rd is more symphonic in scope than the 8th and the same applies to Brian's Gothic.
A VERY good point indeed,in my humble opinion!
(and with due respect to Brian's original post,as well!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2011, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 15, 2011, 05:40:28 AM
A VERY good point indeed,in my humble opinion!
(and with due respect to Brian's original post,as well!)

Thank you, cilgwyn. :) I'm going to be getting my Gothic on just as soon as I receive the new Brabbins recording. I'm ready to hear a new version of this monstrous masterpiece.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2011, 06:39:32 AM
I expect my copy of Brian's 'monstrous masterpiece' next week.


I listened to the Te Deum laudamus a few hours ago, and was (again) blown away. After that my Brian love exploded (as is sometimes the case...) and I listened to symphonies 10 (Brabbins), 11 and 12 (Newstone, both historic). While I was listening and hearing my favourite passages again, I thought 'Wouldn't it be interesting to know someone's favourite moments?' It is always difficult to explain to another why you love a certain composer. But letting them hear the moments that never fail to impress, thrill or move you, could be very enlightening...


When I have the time, I'll upload a few of mine...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2011, 07:01:58 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2011, 06:39:32 AM
I expect my copy of Brian's 'monstrous masterpiece' next week.


I listened to the Te Deum laudamus a few hours ago, and was (again) blown away. After that my Brian love exploded (as is sometimes the case...) and I listened to symphonies 10 (Brabbins), 11 and 12 (Newstone, both historic). While I was listening and hearing my favourite passages again, I thought 'Wouldn't it be interesting to know someone's favourite moments?' It is always difficult to explain to another why you love a certain composer. But letting them hear the moments that never fail to impress, thrill or move you, could be very enlightening...


When I have the time, I'll upload a few of mine...

I liked Havergal Brian the moment I heard the Gothic (the recording on Naxos -- originally Marco Polo). I knew he was very special and one-of-a-kind but I knew I was going to have to spend more time with his music. I think I listened to Gothic about 8 or 9 times straight. I'm still very enthusiastic about this work. I mean it's just such a unique listening experience and nothing sounds like it at all. I really look forward to Brabbins' performance.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 16, 2011, 07:04:42 AM
"Monstrous masterpiece". I like it! Move over Godzilla! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2011, 07:08:52 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 16, 2011, 07:04:42 AM
"Monstrous masterpiece". I like it! Move over Godzilla! :)

:P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 16, 2011, 08:04:15 AM
Easy for me ;D

Nothing if not predictable ;D ;D ;D

http://www.mediafire.com/?aal18allz3e0z7d
http://www.mediafire.com/?6e6odufurqcoioc
http://www.mediafire.com/?khh1pgmvgfsizrr
http://www.mediafire.com/?obn9e1nyo7jsnty
http://www.mediafire.com/?wl64qtsnb5nq2r0

(Hope I got these in the right order ;D ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2011, 08:15:47 AM
That's quick! I'll have a listen...  :)


Later: aaah, yes...  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 16, 2011, 08:27:32 AM
How anybody in their right mind could possibly claim that these few minutes fail to demonstrate the orchestral mastery of a great composer in full and total control of the resources of a huge orchestra is utterly beyond my comprehension :o

"The Victory of Imagination over Form" summed it up better than anyone ever could or will do :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 16, 2011, 08:31:05 AM
You will do a much, much better job than I, Johan, in giving this proper consideration and making a judicious selection........

but I just could not resist the temptation to-yet again-post those few minutes of glory and grandeur which bring me such exaultation every time I hear them :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2011, 08:32:22 AM
I was glad to hear this music again. I think that transition passage in the Vivace is one the greatest moments in all music.  Something tremendous happens there.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 16, 2011, 08:35:41 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2011, 08:32:22 AM
I was glad to hear this music again. I think that transition passage in the Vivace is one the greatest moments in all music.  Something tremendous happens there.

Hear, Hear ;D ;D

If any critic-whether named Clements or any other name ;D-cannot recognise that then there is something sadly lacking in their musical soul :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 16, 2011, 08:42:53 AM
I totally agree. I have felt the same way about that passage for years & now it's nice to hear (read) some other people saying that.
Now I KNOW I'm not a deluded fool..............at least,not on that point! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2011, 08:48:13 AM
Brian's Gothic is deeply involved with the whole of the Western musical tradition. All his heroes are there and the works he knew, loved and had studied closely. I am almost certain that amazing transition is the Brianic equivalent of the just-as-powerful transition in Beethoven's Fifth (from Scherzo to Finale). To give just one example. RVW did the same a few years later in his Fourth Symphony, but with less originality.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2011, 02:04:10 PM
Your link is okay, cilgwyn! And it's a fair review:


http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/music/album-reviews/classical_opera_the_gothic_novelty_of_mass_participation_1_1992007 (http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/music/album-reviews/classical_opera_the_gothic_novelty_of_mass_participation_1_1992007)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 16, 2011, 02:04:20 PM
Just realised the link I was putting up (with difficulty) was of the actual Prom  concert! ::) The review is at Scotsman.com,which everyone here,except me,has probably seen is another one that seems to view the work as garrulous & disjointed. The reviewer describes the opening as an Alpine Mahlerian landscape,then describes Brian whisking us off into "exotic realms of whole tone orientalism with perhaps a hint of orientalism"! Not sure what he's on about here?!!! :o I'm obviously going to have to listen to that first movement again.
The review is dated December 7th & has a link for purchasing the Hyperion cd at the end.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 16, 2011, 02:09:05 PM
I seem to remember there ARE some oriental-y sounding bits later on. In the Te Deum. Or it may just be my fevered imagination! ;D

Indeed! I was so busy grappling with the link I wasn't able to absorb the entire review,as I normally would. No,this is definately one of the better ones,lots of detail and phrases like "Ivesian" and "a symphonic roller coaster ride" that should keep many a Brian admirer happy. I also,like the stuff about Brian staying up in his bedroom night after night composing something for which there was no prospect of performance" (from Brabbins). I wish all the reviews were as detailed & fair as this!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2011, 02:10:22 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 16, 2011, 02:04:20 PM
Just realised the link I was putting up (with difficulty) was of the actual Prom  concert! ::) The review is at Scotsman.com,which everyone here,except me,has probably seen is another one that seems to view the work as garrulous & disjointed. The reviewer describes the opening as an Alpine Mahlerian landscape,then describes Brian whisking us off into "exotic realms of whole tone orientalism with perhaps a hint of orientalism"! Not sure what he's on about here?!!! :o I'm obviously going to have to listen to that first movement again.
The review is dated December 7th & has a link for purchasing the Hyperion cd at the end.


I hadn't seen this. The reviewer is trying to make stylistic sense of the work by looking for its 'allegiances'. There aren't any - Brian is Brian. For the rest - he has a reasonably open mind.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 16, 2011, 02:19:05 PM
Sorry Johan! See above,silly me,I was struggling with the link.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2011, 02:20:28 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 16, 2011, 02:19:05 PM
Sorry Johan! See above,silly me,I was struggling with the link.


And you had done it... ! Well, never mind!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 16, 2011, 02:35:37 PM
 ;D Yes,I think I'm getting conditioned by too many brain dead reviews. Actually,I can see now that he's just trying to mentally grapple with this huge,unknown leviathan of a symphony & like a hiker or rambler (to use an analogy) trying to find his bearings via some stylistic references & composers. That's fair enough. I think it's something you do when you first encounter a piece of music or composer you don't know or aren't very familiar with. Like my first encounter with Bantock. People used to say he was like bits of Strauss,Wagner & maybe a bit of Tchaikovsky thrown in. I could see those influences at first,but the more I listened to his music,the more I became aware that Bantock had his very own distinctive sound & didn't really sound like any of those composers at all. Brian of course,is,at least to my ears, far more of an original. The first time I heard the Gothic I honestly couldn't think of anything that really sounded like it at all,although I could see some influences there,but not Mahler,whose orchestration has an entirely different sound.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 16, 2011, 02:52:34 PM
Brians orchestration,for the Gothic, has a steely,almost muscular sound to it at times. But when you're hearing it as a complete 'newbie' it's perfectly understandable that you're first point of comparison will be Mahler,because his symphonies are,erm,big!!!

Another quote I like from Brabbins," Working on it...was like captaining a supertanker!" ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 16, 2011, 02:55:16 PM
Makes me quite proud that such a reasonable review should appear in a Scottish newspaper ;D ;D

One might not agree with everything that Kenneth Walton says but he IS making a genuine attempt to come to terms with the work-which is a hell of a lot more than can be said for many other critics ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2011, 02:58:49 PM
Mahler's style is far more emotional. Brian writes as it were in the third person, not the first.


Quote from: Dundonnell on December 16, 2011, 02:55:16 PM
Makes me quite proud that such a reasonable review should appear in a Scottish newspaper ;D ;D

One might not agree with everything that Kenneth Walton says but he IS making a genuine attempt to come to terms with the work-which is a hell of a lot more than can be said for many other critics ::)


Perhaps there is no negative consensus he has to fear and follow, like his English (London) brethren...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 16, 2011, 02:59:23 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2011, 08:48:13 AM
Brian's Gothic is deeply involved with the whole of the Western musical tradition. All his heroes are there and the works he knew, loved and had studied closely.

It is curious that despite this fact, Brian's own compositional method used to represent this was so individual. In a way it seems like a precursor to the nostalgia post-modernism of post-WW2, with composers like Rihm or Henze writing pieces deeply involved in "past matters". Or even just something like Strauss' Metamorphosen.

Do you feel that despite Brian himself being deeply involved in the music, his relative lack of performance and exposure left what he had to say on the tradition just as isolated as those later composers, even though he was a near-contemporary to some?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 16, 2011, 03:04:35 PM
Indeed (me and my link attempts! ???) I wonder if being so far from all the London/Home counties based critics helps him make up his mind for himself?  At this rate he could be posting here,with us,before long!

Just saw you're post,Johan. I was thinking the same.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2011, 03:13:15 PM
Quote from: Lethevich Dmitriyevna Pettersonova on December 16, 2011, 02:59:23 PM
It is curious that despite this fact, Brian's own compositional method used to represent this was so individual. In a way it seems like a precursor to the nostalgia post-modernism of post-WW2, with composers like Rihm or Henze writing pieces deeply involved in "past matters". Or even just something like Strauss' Metamorphosen.

Do you feel that despite Brian himself being deeply involved in the music, his relative lack of performance and exposure left what he had to say on the tradition just as isolated as those later composers, even though he was a near-contemporary to some?


Good question. I had to think about that. My answer would be - Brian's connection with the past has nothing 'retro' about it, and isn't nostalgic. He was born in the 19th century and in himself embodies two centuries, two sensibilities, a grand one, a cool one. That's what makes him so fascinating. You can see the same thing in Mahler, too, but in a way he died too soon. Brian composed well into the 1960s. In his music I can hear the Romanticism he was born into transform into a sort of Modernism, and later into something wholly unique, with elements of both combined. This is what makes his work so difficult to understand or place. And an inspiration for anyone who tries to combine the best of the past to make sense of the present and light the way to the future... Isolated he may have been, but his influence can only grow. As for Rihm and Henze, I don't know.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 16, 2011, 03:27:24 PM
Danke! I find the composer most curious because he sounds modern almost right from the start, to me. Even his early overture style pieces have a heavy, condensed, sometimes cranky quality to them which feels neither part of classical Romanticism like Parry, or post-Wagnerian "plush" Romanticism like Strauss. Overall I have a tremendously difficult time treating the composer as even partly 'pure' Romantic, based on the sound of his music alone. It does get a little easier with 2-5, though, as the slightly reduced scale makes the harmonies Brian uses less thunderously jarring.

His weirdly polyphonic, contrapunctual 27th is full of the same difficulties that I find in the Gothic, for example, but condensed - and as a result, easier to take. Good lord I wish Dutton would record this one. I admit, Ave atque vale still eludes me. It's too brief, too pointalistic for my understanding at the moment, so I suppose this does mean that Brian's style was being continually refined right until the end.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2011, 03:34:17 PM
Quote from: Lethevich Dmitriyevna Pettersonova on December 16, 2011, 03:27:24 PM
Danke! I find the composer most curious because he sounds modern almost right from the start, to me. Even his early overture style pieces have a heavy, condensed, sometimes cranky quality to them which feels neither part of classical Romanticism like Parry, or post-Wagnerian "plush" Romanticism like Strauss. Overall I have a tremendously difficult time treating the composer as even partly 'pure' Romantic, based on the sound of his music alone. It does get a little easier with 2-5, though, as the slightly reduced scale makes the harmonies Brian uses less thunderously jarring.

His weirdly polyphonic, contrapunctual 27th is full of the same difficulties that I find in the Gothic, for example, but condensed - and as a result, easier to take. Good lord I wish Dutton would record this one. I admit, Ave atque vale still eludes me. It's too brief, too pointalistic for my understanding at the moment, so I suppose this does mean that Brian's style was being continually refined right until the end.


No. 27 is among the best of the very late symphonies. It is very rich and very violent (I think). I don't know if you know Klemperer's performance of the Missa Solemnis? When I heard that for the first time, I was bowled over by the superhuman strength of the piece, it never lets up. Brian's 27th, in its smaller way, is the same. It is as if these two composers are pitting everything they have against the powers of - what? Death?


As for Ave Atque Vale - I think both the performance and the recording could be better. It is a curious piece, though, I agree. It is as if Brian brings together all the elements of his (late) style for one last time. The ending is magical. It really is a farewell, and completely unsentimental.


Oh, and Brian was never a fully paid-up member of Romanticism, in my view. There I agree with you, too. He is far too knowing and ironic for that. But Romanticism is there.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 16, 2011, 03:51:41 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2011, 03:34:17 PM
No. 27 is among the best of the very late symphonies. It is very rich and very violent (I think). I don't know if you know Klemperer's performance of the Missa Solemnis? When I heard that for the first time, I was bowled over by the superhuman strength of the piece, it never lets up. Brian's 27th, in its smaller way, is the same. It is as if these two composers are pitting everything they have against the powers of - what? Death?

Wow, that is interesting - I find myself experiencing all manner of silly images or feelings with music (Brian's 27th for example is ruddy, rust red), and until now I hadn't realised that my images for that work and Klemperer's styles were remarkably consistent; muscular, unsmiling, but with a joy revealed in the process of the musicmaking rather than neccessarily the sound or emotion from the work. A work like the 27th reminds me of an iron-cored planet like Mercury: dense, scarred, but bathed in sunlight - something I also get from Klemperer's somewhat granitic take on, say, Beethoven's 5th (both mono and stereo eras). Woah, time to end that train of weird fluff from me ;D There is always the sense of large powers in Brian's music, but I find them more literal than metaphysical - like plate tectonics.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2011, 04:04:10 PM
I have been listening to Brian's music all day, as a means of getting into my creative groove. And what a joy it has been! The music is so varied and powerful. That sense of 'large powers', yes, it is there, certainly. And Brian, being the agnostic he was, is more literal than metaphysic, more earthly than heavenly. Still, he has a strong visionary streak - listen to the calm, cosmic ending of his 29th, or the close of the 10th.


And now it's late. Time for bed...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 17, 2011, 07:48:39 AM
After immersion in the Brabbins Gothic over the last few weeks, I put Schmidt on today under the guise of 'tidying up the sitting room' (which is where the hi-fi is, of course) to remind myself of another way of looking at the music. After the intricate detail and controlled mayhem of Brabbins, I was struck again by what a vast, epic reading Schmidt's is. Trenchant, gritty, fearsome ... and heartrending in places. The a cappella 'in te, Domine, speravi' before the final cataclysm is possibly the most tender and ultimately soaring performance of all so far.

What a multi-faceted work this is.

Here's another review of the Brabbins. (http://www.recordsinternational.com/cd.php?cd=12N002)

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 17, 2011, 07:54:01 AM
Wonderful review! I wonder who wrote it. I'll listen to the Schmidt Gothic tonight...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 17, 2011, 08:01:13 AM
It's heartening to see the Gothic getting some better & even really good reviews,now. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 18, 2011, 01:35:22 AM
I have played Vol.2 of the Toccata series enough for it not to sound like white noise, and so far my favourites are the Faust Night Ride, and the arranged Turandot Suite. It's audibly not by the composer of origin even ignoring the liner notes, because its movements just don't sound like movements (in the way, say, the English Suites do) - and the final one in particular just fades out. I suspect Brian would've done some recomposition here?

The Cenci prelude is neat, as I had hoped, although surprisingly... overture-sounding. I mention this as a mild disappointment because ever since I heard that the 6th symphony was originally intended as a gargantuan prelude to an abandoned opera project, I have been bothered by what might have been. Even Wagner did not reach this height of symphonism in his introdutions. The Cenci prelude is nice, but much different. This makes me wonder - was the 6th perhaps substantially altered ('beefed up') before it was published as a stand-alone symphony? Or perhaps because the Cenci is, iirc, a late work, it is just as complex, but in that elusive late style which allows works like Ave atque vale to go in one ear and out the other - for me, anyway.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 18, 2011, 03:05:57 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 17, 2011, 07:48:39 AM
After immersion in the Brabbins Gothic over the last few weeks, I put Schmidt on today under the guise of 'tidying up the sitting room' (which is where the hi-fi is, of course) to remind myself of another way of looking at the music. After the intricate detail and controlled mayhem of Brabbins, I was struck again by what a vast, epic reading Schmidt's is. Trenchant, gritty, fearsome ... and heartrending in places. The a cappella 'in te, Domine, speravi' before the final cataclysm is possibly the most tender and ultimately soaring performance of all so far.

What a multi-faceted work this is.

Here's another review of the Brabbins. (http://www.recordsinternational.com/cd.php?cd=12N002)

;)
A perfectly decent, positive sounding review but why does the reviewer state that the Schmidt can never be released on CD due to technical issues with the recording? My bog standard MP3 download sounds pretty good on CD. With a bit of professional tinkering it would be pefectly decent for CD release. There's some ancient mono stuff out there in the market complete with 78 swish so this comment really baffles me. Question - now that Hyperion have polished the whole thing up and removed the glitches, is 22 quid a sound investment (no pun intended) or is the BBC broadcast fairly similar?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 18, 2011, 07:39:43 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 17, 2011, 07:54:01 AM
Wonderful review! I wonder who wrote it. I'll listen to the Schmidt Gothic tonight...
I assumed that it was you :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2011, 08:16:32 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 18, 2011, 07:39:43 AM
I assumed that it was you :)


It certainly was well-informed and effusive...  ;D


Quote from: John Whitmore on December 18, 2011, 03:05:57 AMQuestion - now that Hyperion have polished the whole thing up and removed the glitches, is 22 quid a sound investment (no pun intended) or is the BBC broadcast fairly similar?


My copy is coming this week. But judging by the reactions I have read, the Hyperion Gothic is an enormous improvement on the radio broadcast.


Quote from: Lethevich Dmitriyevna Pettersonova on December 18, 2011, 01:35:22 AMThe Cenci prelude is neat, as I had hoped, although surprisingly... overture-sounding. I mention this as a mild disappointment because ever since I heard that the 6th symphony was originally intended as a gargantuan prelude to an abandoned opera project, I have been bothered by what might have been. Even Wagner did not reach this height of symphonism in his introdutions. The Cenci prelude is nice, but much different. This makes me wonder - was the 6th perhaps substantially altered ('beefed up') before it was published as a stand-alone symphony? Or perhaps because the Cenci is, iirc, a late work, it is just as complex, but in that elusive late style which allows works like Ave atque vale to go in one ear and out the other - for me, anyway.


The Cenci prelude is very Beethovenian, I think. It sounds very 'sonata form', quite uncommon for Brian, with a thrusting first and a lyrical second subject. It's interesting that the opening movement of the Ninth Symphony, which was composed just before the opera, is in sonata form, too. As for the Tragica, I know as much as Malcolm MacDonald, who writes: We do not know if he had written any of the opera proper, if any of it now survives, nor if the plan of the original Prelude was enlarged to include any of the opera's material. (MM, Symphonies of HB vol. 1, p. 121).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 18, 2011, 08:22:47 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2011, 08:16:32 AM
As for the Tragica, I know as much as Malcolm MacDonald, who writes: We do not know if he had written any of the opera proper, if any of it now survives, nor if the plan of the original Prelude was enlarged to include any of the opera's material. (MM, Symphonies of HB vol. 1, p. 121).

Ah, confirmation from the scripture ;D I find it hard to believe it wasn't fixed in some way - how could any opening scene follow that? But it's such a 'what-if?' :-X
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2011, 08:26:41 AM
The Tragica is thematically so taut and strong, I wonder if the operatic version would have felt like a dilution...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2011, 11:19:37 AM
I found this on Twitter:

@GlobalNews247: Listening Post /Brief reviews of select releases: Classical Havergal Brian, Symphony No. 1 inD-Mino... http://t.co/GhYFCqL0 #Music #News

The review is a bit incoherent at times and contains a few mistakes (Brian wrote more than 20 symphonies after his First). But the work gets three out of four stars... And it's nice to see a new Hobbit on the block - Martyn Braggins.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 09:43:08 AM
Can anyone comment on this recording with Brabbins? I'm very interested in it. How would you rate the music? Essential Brian?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B004SGYI32.01.L.jpg)

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2011, 09:45:47 AM
I can recommend it unreservedly. Excellent performances in excellent sound. There's not a weak work on this disc and they span more than four decades, with English Suite No. 3 written in the early 1920s and Symphony No. 30 in 1968.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 09:48:03 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2011, 09:45:47 AM
I can recommend it unreservedly. Excellent performances in excellent sound. There's not a weak work on this disc and they span more than four decades, with English Suite No. 3 written in the early 1920s and Symphony No. 30 in 1968.

Great! Thanks, Johan. I'll be buying this one then. How would you describe the music?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2011, 09:53:16 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 09:48:03 AM
Great! Thanks, Johan. I'll be buying this one then. How would you describe the music?


English Suite No. 3 - mercurial, bizarrely pastoral, lightning-quick, grand


Symphony No. 10 - heroic, lyrical, stormy, triumphant, accepting, mysterious


Concerto for Orchestra - polyphonic, starts out forbidding but mellows along the way, with an exhilarating ending


Symphony No. 30 - serious, varied, the final minutes among Brian's most impressive
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 09:55:55 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2011, 09:53:16 AM

English Suite No. 3 - mercurial, bizarrely pastoral, lightning-quick, grand


Symphony No. 10 - heroic, lyrical, stormy, triumphant, accepting, mysterious


Concerto for Orchestra - polyphonic, starts out forbidding but mellows along the way, with an exhilarating ending


Symphony No. 30 - serious, varied, the final minutes among Brian's most impressive

Thanks again, Johan! I just bought this recording. I look forward to hearing it. I only wish Brabbins would recording the whole symphonic cycle!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2011, 09:57:26 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 09:55:55 AM
Thanks again, Johan! I just bought this recording. I look forward to hearing it. I only wish Brabbins would record the whole symphonic cycle!


So say we all!


Report back when you have listened to the music!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 09:59:04 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2011, 09:57:26 AM

So say we all!


Report back when you have listened to the music!

Will do, Johan. I believe I will be receiving the Brabbins' Gothic performance today as it's out for delivery from the post office. I will be listening to this as soon as humanly possible.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2011, 10:01:42 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 09:59:04 AM
Will do, Johan. I believe I will be receiving the Brabbins' Gothic performance today as it's out for delivery from the post office. I will be listening to this as soon as humanly possible.


I'm expecting the Gothic to hit Delft on Wednesday...  :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 19, 2011, 10:09:20 AM
A second for that Dutton disc - it's one of the best sounding orchestral recordings I've heard (of any composer) on a purely technicaly level. It just sounds so balanced, clear and powerful.

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2011, 09:57:26 AM
So say we all!

ಠ_ಠ what you did there: i saw it
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 10:18:24 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2011, 10:01:42 AM

I'm expecting the Gothic to hit Delft on Wednesday...  :o

Alright, we can rejoice in unison then!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 11:04:58 AM
Quote from: Lethevich Dmitriyevna Pettersonova on December 19, 2011, 10:09:20 AM
A second for that Dutton disc - it's one of the best sounding orchestral recordings I've heard (of any composer) on a purely technicaly level. It just sounds so balanced, clear and powerful.

Being an audiophile, this is good news to me. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2011, 11:13:23 AM
Quote from: Lethevich Dmitriyevna Pettersonova on December 19, 2011, 10:09:20 AM
ಠ_ಠ what you did there: i saw it


;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 19, 2011, 12:28:22 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 09:43:08 AM
Can anyone comment on this recording with Brabbins? I'm very interested in it. How would you rate the music? Essential Brian?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B004SGYI32.01.L.jpg)

Thanks in advance.
It's a fine CD with some excellent music in wide ranging styles beautifully recorded. One of the best in the Brian catalogue. My only criticism, personally, is that there's just a bit of fire and bite missing here and there. If I were to choose one Brian CD to give as a pressy to a Brian hater in order to convert him/her to the notion that Brian, maybe, isn't a bad composer after all it would be this one. Others would be the Lyrita 6/16, CBS Psalm23/Suite 5 and the new Hyperion Gothic (which can be done by listening to the BBC broadcast if you are a cheapskate). If none of these do the trick pack it in.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 12:34:55 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 19, 2011, 12:28:22 PM
It's a fine CD with some excellent music in wide ranging styles beautifully recorded. One of the best in the Brian catalogue. My only criticism, personally, is that there's just a bit of fire and bite missing here and there. If I were to choose one Brian CD to give as a pressy to a Brian hater in order to convert him/her to the notion that Brian, maybe, isn't a bad composer after all it would be this one. Others would be the Lyrita 6/16, CBS Psalm23/Suite 5 and the new Hyperion Gothic (which can be done by listening to the BBC broadcast if you are a cheapskate). If none of these do the trick pack it in.

Thanks for the feedback in regards to this recording. I've been a fan of Brian for many years now. The first work I heard was Gothic and it remains one of my favorites of his. I look forward to receiving this disc and the new Gothic recording on Hyperion.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 19, 2011, 12:53:11 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 12:34:55 PM
Thanks for the feedback in regards to this recording. I've been a fan of Brian for many years now. The first work I heard was Gothic and it remains one of my favorites of his. I look forward to receiving this disc and the new Gothic recording on Hyperion.
I've just played it through. It is really excellent with my one proviso about it being a bit laid back for my taste - but this is my subjective view. Others will disagree. Johan (especially) and me have a few Brian downloads if you are interested. Drop me an email and I will send you my links. I'm not a huge fan but think HB deserves to be treated more fairly by the London music establishment. He's too easily dismissed. As a Leicester man it's my solemn duty to help out!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 01:07:32 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 19, 2011, 12:53:11 PM
I've just played it through. It is really excellent with my one proviso about it being a bit laid back for my taste - but this is my subjective view. Others will disagree. Johan (especially) and me have a few Brian downloads if you are interested. Drop me an email and I will send you my links. I'm not a huge fan but think HB deserves to be treated more fairly by the London music establishment. He's too easily dismissed. As a Leicester man it's my solemn duty to help out!!!!!

Thanks, John. I appreciate it.

Re: Brabbins' Gothic

I'm sure it supersedes the Ondrej Lenard recording on Marco Polo. I've waited to a hear the Gothic performed by English orchestras with an English conductor and now my wish has been granted. The BBC Proms confirmed, for me, that if this work can get performed that many obscure treasures will be able to be given the light of day too. One can only hope...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 19, 2011, 01:55:32 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 01:07:32 PM
Thanks, John. I appreciate it.

Re: Brabbins' Gothic

I'm sure it supersedes the Ondrej Lenard recording on Marco Polo. I've waited to a hear the Gothic performed by English orchestras with an English conductor and now my wish has been granted. The BBC Proms confirmed, for me, that if this work can get performed that many obscure treasures will be able to be given the light of day too. One can only hope...

To be dreadfully pedantic ;D only half of the orchestra/s was "English"; the other half was the B.B.C. National Orchestra of Wales, which, as cilgwyn would be quick to point out, is Welsh ;D ;D

But your overall point is well made :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 02:01:17 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 19, 2011, 01:55:32 PM
To be dreadfully pedantic ;D only half of the orchestra/s was "English"; the other half was the B.B.C. National Orchestra of Wales, which, as cilgwyn would be quick to point out, is Welsh ;D ;D

But your overall point is well made :)

Oh, I hope cilgwyn forgives my moronic error! :) Long live the Welsh! :D

(http://www.firesprinklerassocnewsletters.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Wales-flag.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 07:13:15 PM
So I listened to Brabbins' Gothic...

Right now, the only word I can come up with is "stunning." I don't care what anybody says negatively about this recording. I think it's an outstanding performance and the fact that Brabbins didn't make any horrible mistakes speaks volumes. The recording quality, one of the most important factors for something of this size, was fantastic. All of the brass, strings, percussion, etc. sounded opulent. The only criticism I have is that there wasn't enough cowbell in this performance. :D Anyway, a fine recording and performance and will reward the listener each time they return.

Record of the year? Maybe, but it's certainly the best Gothic of the two I own.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 20, 2011, 12:19:56 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 07:13:15 PM
So I listened to Brabbins' Gothic...

Right now, the only word I can come up with is "stunning." I don't care what anybody says negatively about this recording. I think it's an outstanding performance and the fact that Brabbins didn't make any horrible mistakes speaks volumes. The recording quality, one of the most important factors for something of this size, was fantastic. All of the brass, violins, percussion, etc. sounded opulent. The only criticism I have is that there wasn't enough cowbell in this performance. :D Anyway, a fine recording and performance and will reward the listener each time they return.

Record of the year? Maybe, but it's certainly the best Gothic of the two I own.
Point 1: Try Mahler 6. Point 2: Make sure to download the Schmidt/LSO and Curro/Brisbane performances. Both free. Both excellent in their different ways. One for the superlative world class playing, the other for its guts, drive and excitement. Don't forget Boult either. Basically just get all of 'em!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 20, 2011, 12:25:01 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 19, 2011, 01:55:32 PM
To be dreadfully pedantic ;D only half of the orchestra/s was "English"; the other half was the B.B.C. National Orchestra of Wales, which, as cilgwyn would be quick to point out, is Welsh ;D ;D

But your overall point is well made :)
To be very pedantic indeed I doubt very much that half the performers were Welsh. Mainly Engish I think. Same nationality as the composer unless Stoke is now classed as East Wales :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 12:53:59 AM
I am very glad MI has confirmed what all the others before him have written - that the Brabbins Gothic is stunning. I must be patient...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 20, 2011, 03:04:12 AM
O dread pedantry...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Rabbity Baxter on December 20, 2011, 03:06:10 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 12:53:59 AM
I am very glad MI has confirmed what all the others before him have written - that the Brabbins Gothic is stunning. I must be patient...

I listened to it yesterday in fact. And I quite agree about the quality -- really miles ahead of other versions.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 03:15:00 AM
Quote from: Rabbity Baxter on December 20, 2011, 03:06:10 AM
I listened to it yesterday in fact. And I quite agree about the quality -- really miles ahead of other versions.


Very good. And wow, that's a long time ago I have seen you here on GMG... Welcome back!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 20, 2011, 04:17:52 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 20, 2011, 12:25:01 AM
To be very pedantic indeed I doubt very much that half the performers were Welsh. Mainly Engish I think. Same nationality as the composer unless Stoke is now classed as East Wales :D

You will be telling me next that the Royal Scottish National Orchestra and the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra are "English" too :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 20, 2011, 06:23:31 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 20, 2011, 04:17:52 AM
You will be telling me next that the Royal Scottish National Orchestra and the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra are "English" too :o
Never heard of 'em :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2011, 08:38:23 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 20, 2011, 12:19:56 AM
Point 1: Try Mahler 6. Point 2: Make sure to download the Schmidt/LSO and Curro/Brisbane performances. Both free. Both excellent in their different ways. One for the superlative world class playing, the other for its guts, drive and excitement. Don't forget Boult either. Basically just get all of 'em!!

I'm not big on downloading. I'm very much happy with my CDs, but quite honestly, I don't see how Brabbins performance could be improved upon. I think he had the proper vision of this work and he nailed the essence of the work or at least for me he did. By the way, I've heard Mahler's 6th many, many times, but quite honestly I'm not much of a Mahler fan. I like Havergal Brian's music much more than Mahler's.

Anyway, I don't need another Gothic in my collection, because Brabbins really hit this one out of the park. As I said, I can't imagine anyone bettering this performance.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 08:59:42 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 20, 2011, 08:38:23 AMAnyway, I don't need another Gothic in my collection, because Brabbins really hit this one out of the park. As I said, I can't imagine anyone bettering this performance.

Though it is always instructive to hear different performances, I think Brabbins does the work full justice. There are a few moments where I'd wish he'd slowed down just a bit, but that's nitpicking. On the night itself I was struck by the immense onward momentum and never before had I felt the centrality of the (wonderfully sung!) a capella passage In te Domine speravi so strongly. If he had dragged I wonder if that passage would have moved me as much as it did and does. So - enjoy the Brabbins!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2011, 09:18:02 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 08:59:42 AM
Though it is always instructive to hear different performances, I think Brabbins does the work full justice. There are a few moments where I'd wish he'd slowed down just a bit, but that's nitpicking. On the night itself I was struck by the immense onward momentum and never before had I felt the centrality of the (wonderfully sung!) a capella passage In te Domine speravi so strongly. If he had dragged I wonder if that passage would have moved me as much as it did and does. So - enjoy the Brabbins!

Yes, I'm all for comparing different performances (I do own 26 recordings of Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe ;)), but with the Gothic and Brian, in general, there's not much to choose from. :) But where I'm getting at is I don't want to download music. I want a commercial recording. I want something tangible in my hands --- a hard copy if you will. I think Brian's star has yet to shine, but I do hope Brabbins continues his foray into the Brian symphonies. Yes, that a cappella passage, which I never paid much attention to, really hit me as something special too. I love the way Brabbins then weaved the orchestra in and out of the chorus. Some phrases really being punctuated and emphasized for emotional impact. I was truly impressed with his conducting all the way through.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 20, 2011, 10:58:16 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 19, 2011, 02:01:17 PM
Oh, I hope cilgwyn forgives my moronic error! :) Long live the Welsh! :D

(http://www.firesprinklerassocnewsletters.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Wales-flag.jpg)
I forgive you Mirror Image. Cymru am byth & all that! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 11:21:33 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 08:59:42 AM
Though it is always instructive to hear different performances, I think Brabbins does the work full justice. There are a few moments where I'd wish he'd slowed down just a bit, but that's nitpicking.

Not really nitpicking. As you and I have discussed before, I think his rush through the climactic moment of the Vivace ruins it (ruins it for me anyway). Boult blows it too, although for a different reason. Lenard, then, will remain my Gothic of choice. He nails that moment, the "stride from one end of the tonal universe to the other in a split second" ...to quote MacDonald.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 20, 2011, 11:27:07 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 20, 2011, 09:18:02 AM
Yes, I'm all for comparing different performances (I do own 26 recordings of Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe ;)), but with the Gothic and Brian, in general, there's not much to choose from. :) But where I'm getting at is I don't want to download music. I want a commercial recording. I want something tangible in my hands --- a hard copy if you will. I think Brian's star has yet to shine, but I do hope Brabbins continues his foray into the Brian symphonies. Yes, that a cappella passage, which I never paid much attention to, really hit me as something special too. I love the way Brabbins then weaved the orchestra in and out of the chorus. Some phrases really being punctuated and emphasized for emotional impact. I was truly impressed with his conducting all the way through.
I'm totally with you on this one which is why I only use high quality downloads (256 or 320 kbps) and then burn them onto CDs so that I can hold them and stick them into my CD player. I'm not into listening on the computer or via headphones. I only use the computer for editing. All my listening is through speakers - it's the only way you can get a true stereo image after all. You could do this and make extra Brian CDs for a few pence each. It's enabled me to put 5 Gothics on my shelf, all of them with their special moments and flaws. Have I converted you in any way?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 11:33:28 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 11:21:33 AM
Not really nitpicking. As you and I have discussed before, I think his rush through the climactic moment of the Vivace ruins it (ruins it for me anyway). Boult blows it too, although for a different reason. Lenard, then, will remain my Gothic of choice. He nails that moment, the "stride from one end of the tonal universe to the other in a split second" ...to quote MacDonald.

Sarge


I can't disagree. Another moment is the penultimate chord of the Judex. Brabbins is a funny conductor in that he has everything under tight control, but when he lets rip he sometimes does so too enthusiastically...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: petrarch on December 20, 2011, 11:40:57 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 20, 2011, 12:19:56 AM
Point 2: Make sure to download the Schmidt/LSO and Curro/Brisbane performances. Both free. Both excellent in their different ways. One for the superlative world class playing, the other for its guts, drive and excitement. Don't forget Boult either. Basically just get all of 'em!!

The excerpts I have heard of the Gothic have piqued my ear. I would like to listen to it in full before I get it on CD. Where can I download those performances? Looking forward to become another Brian convert :).

Thanks all,
Paulo
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 11:48:01 AM
Quote from: petrarch on December 20, 2011, 11:40:57 AMLooking forward to become another Brian convert :).

You won't be allowed into the hallowed inner circle unless you meet the prerequisites:

"...average age about 70, bald scalp and lanky shoulder-length white hair, hanging limply in the latest Benjamin Franklin style; thick glasses, and showing a few conditions that had been cured by the turn of the last century..."

If you meet one or more of those criteria, you're in.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 11:51:03 AM
Quote from: petrarch on December 20, 2011, 11:40:57 AM
The excerpts I have heard of the Gothic have piqued my ear. I would like to listen to it in full before I get it on CD. Where can I download those performances? Looking forward to become another Brian convert :) .

Thanks all,
Paulo


Nice hearing from you! Look in your Inbox here.


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 11:48:01 AM
You won't be allowed into the hallowed inner circle unless you meet the prerequisites:

"...average age about 70, bald scalp and lanky shoulder-length white hair, hanging limply in the latest Benjamin Franklin style; thick glasses, and showing a few conditions that had been cured by the turn of the last century..."

If you meet one or more of those criteria, you're in.


We don't all aspire to your look.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 20, 2011, 11:56:40 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 11:51:03 AM
We don't all aspire to your look.

Well, if you change your mind, and feel like donning period costume, you'd make a great tour guide here in Boston, Johan . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 11:57:00 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 11:51:03 AM
We don't all aspire to your look.

;D :D ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 11:59:27 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 20, 2011, 11:56:40 AM
Well, if you change your mind, and feel like donning period costume, you'd make a great tour guide here in Boston, Johan . . . .


;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 20, 2011, 12:03:07 PM
Don't rush the decision . . . come visit, and we'll go on the duck tour together : )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 12:12:33 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 20, 2011, 12:03:07 PM
Don't rush the decision . . . come visit, and we'll go on the duck tour together : )


Oh, you make it sound so enticing! I can hardly restrain myself.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 20, 2011, 12:16:42 PM
Hah! But, you know, the duck tour (http://www.bostonducktours.com/) is very popular.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 12:21:28 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 20, 2011, 12:16:42 PM
Hah! But, you know, the duck tour (http://www.bostonducktours.com/) is very popular.

I love ducks. Can I take the tour?  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 20, 2011, 12:21:59 PM
Come on over, lad! We'll chowder the fatted clam!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 12:22:52 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 12:21:28 PM
I love ducks. Can I take the tour?  8)

Sarge


The new season starts March 19. I'll accompany Sarge across the Pond.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 20, 2011, 12:23:45 PM
You will both be heartily welcome.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 20, 2011, 12:27:37 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 20, 2011, 12:03:07 PM
Don't rush the decision . . . come visit, and we'll go on the duck tour together : )
Is that the glorified floating tank that takes visitors on a river trip? Really peculiar. I loved Fenway Park though. They had a player called Coco Crisp - sounds like a brand of breakfast cereal. Never made it to Symphony Hall unfortunately.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 12:33:45 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 20, 2011, 12:27:37 PM
Is that the glorified floating tank that takes visitors on a river trip? Really peculiar. I loved Fenway Park though. They had a player called Coco Crisp - sounds like a brand of breakfast cereal. Never made it to Symphony Hall unfortunately.

Native Amerikaner here...but I've never been to Boston. Karl makes it a must destination, though. Someday...

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: petrarch on December 20, 2011, 12:34:02 PM
Coincidentally, I will be returning to Boston next month after my 16-month stint in Hong Kong (and I never went on the duck tour...).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: petrarch on December 20, 2011, 01:51:18 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 11:48:01 AM
You won't be allowed into the hallowed inner circle unless you meet the prerequisites:

"...average age about 70, bald scalp and lanky shoulder-length white hair, hanging limply in the latest Benjamin Franklin style; thick glasses, and showing a few conditions that had been cured by the turn of the last century..."

Can I get a junior membership to the club? I promise I will wear a generous white hair wig and glasses during any meetings of the circle to make sure I won't stand out.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 01:55:19 PM
Paulo, your hi-fi system is quite impressive... If you should succumb to the rugged charms of The Gothic, you really should buy the Brabbins!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 02:01:46 PM
Quote from: petrarch on December 20, 2011, 01:51:18 PM
Can I get a junior membership to the club? I promise I will wear a generous white hair wig and glasses during any meetings of the circle....

The Brian elders will have to vote but I see no problem. We look forward to your initiation into the HB circle.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 02:04:34 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 02:01:46 PM
The Brian elders will have to vote but I see no problem. We look forward to your initiation into the HB circle.


One elder is waiting already...



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 02:10:18 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 02:04:34 PM

One elder is waiting already...

Wow!...that's an imposing portrait, Johan  :o  That will scare off the HB poseurs! Only the deadly serious need apply  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 02:12:50 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 02:10:18 PM
Wow!...that's an imposing portrait, Johan  :o  That will scare off the HB poseurs! Only the deadly serious need apply  :D


Thanks! The funny thing is - tomorrow my company website will go online (I'm a freelance editor) with this picture (against a black background)... I hope I don't scare away the customers!  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 02:22:03 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 02:12:50 PM

Thanks! The funny thing is - tomorrow my company website will go online (I'm a freelance editor) with this picture (against a black background)... I hope I don't scare away the customers!  ;D

If they're scared, you wouldn't want their business anyway  ;D

Seriously, good luck. Hope the company reaps mega profits  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 02:23:46 PM
Thanks, Sarge. Yes, let's hope so!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on December 20, 2011, 03:27:58 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 11:21:33 AM
Not really nitpicking. As you and I have discussed before, I think his rush through the climactic moment of the Vivace ruins it (ruins it for me anyway). Boult blows it too, although for a different reason. Lenard, then, will remain my Gothic of choice. He nails that moment, the "stride from one end of the tonal universe to the other in a split second" ...to quote MacDonald.

Sarge

That is the one substantial beef I have with Brabbins - Lenard's balances go all funny at times in the third movement, but he communicates more effectively the seismic power of those three chords.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on December 20, 2011, 07:00:02 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 02:12:50 PM

Thanks! The funny thing is - tomorrow my company website will go online (I'm a freelance editor) with this picture (against a black background)... I hope I don't scare away the customers!  ;D

Just goes to show what an impact avatars have.  I always pictured Johan and MI to be at least ten or fifteen years older than me because of their avatars even though I know whom the pictures actually show.  Now I find out today that both are, roughly, young enough to be my son.  (Alright,  maybe I should phrase that "I'm old enough to be their father".)

By the way, when you do get to Boston, and take the Duck Tour,  you will pass by one place of historical importance, although the tour guides may not mention it: the Jeffrey Smith Birthplace (known to the vulgate as Beth Israel Hospital). 

You will also want to visit the Museum of Fine Arts, which has one of the best collections of Egyptian mummies in the world.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2011, 07:12:47 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 20, 2011, 07:00:02 PM
Just goes to show what an impact avatars have.  I always pictured Johan and MI to be at least ten or fifteen years older than me because of their avatars even though I know whom the pictures actually show.  Now I find out today that both are, roughly, young enough to be my son.  (Alright,  maybe I should phrase that "I'm old enough to be their father".)

No worries, Jeffrey. I'm just a 29-year old loser who lives with his parents. :) I've almost grown-up.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 08:38:04 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 20, 2011, 07:12:47 PM
No worries, Jeffrey. I'm just a 29-year old loser who lives with his parents. I've almost grown-up.

And I could be your father, too, like Jeffrey (I'm from 1961)...

@Brian The last time I listened to Brabbins, his tempi swept me along so that I didn't mind the reduced grandeur of that cataclysmic passage.Oh well... The Gothic will be arriving today/tomorrow. I am looking forward to it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 20, 2011, 08:41:51 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 08:38:04 PM

And I could be your father, too, like Jeffrey (I'm from 1961)...

That's very true. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 21, 2011, 02:57:37 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 02:04:34 PM

One elder is waiting already...
Johan's photo looks like a geriatric remake of The Matrix.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: petrarch on December 21, 2011, 03:10:04 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 01:55:19 PM
Paulo, your hi-fi system is quite impressive... If you should succumb to the rugged charms of The Gothic, you really should buy the Brabbins!

Will surely get it! Listening to the orchestral works of Varèse or Scelsi at concert hall levels is awesome (although in general I prefer chamber music).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 21, 2011, 03:11:06 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 20, 2011, 07:00:02 PM
Just goes to show what an impact avatars have.  I always pictured Johan and MI to be at least ten or fifteen years older than me because of their avatars even though I know whom the pictures actually show.  Now I find out today that both are, roughly, young enough to be my son.  (Alright,  maybe I should phrase that "I'm old enough to be their father".)

By the way, when you do get to Boston, and take the Duck Tour,  you will pass by one place of historical importance, although the tour guides may not mention it: the Jeffrey Smith Birthplace (known to the vulgate as Beth Israel Hospital). 

You will also want to visit the Museum of Fine Arts, which has one of the best collections of Egyptian mummies in the world.
I beg to differ. Highlighted above -
Point 1: Historical significance? Can't be so. This is the US of A
Point 2: Mummies eh? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I heartily recommend a visit to the Red Sox, a meal at the Barking Crab and a couple of pints at Cheers (Samuel Adams is good ale). Quincy market area is very attractive. Beacon Hill really posh. The harbour cruise is OK but they are all much of a muchness aren't they. In summary, skip the history, museums and mummies and enjoy yourself instead ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: petrarch on December 21, 2011, 03:12:24 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 02:04:34 PM

One elder is waiting already...

I think all HB circle members should be required to get their meeting attire from http://www.gentlemansemporium.com/store/coats.php :).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 21, 2011, 03:12:50 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 21, 2011, 02:57:37 AM
Johan's photo looks like a geriatric remake of The Matrix.


Us oldies have to keep up.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 21, 2011, 03:30:58 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 21, 2011, 03:11:06 AM
I beg to differ. Highlighted above -
Point 1: Historical significance? Can't be so. This is the US of A
Point 2: Mummies eh? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I heartily recommend a visit to the Red Sox, a meal at the Barking Crab and a couple of pints at Cheers (Samuel Adams is good ale). Quincy market area is very attractive. Beacon Hill really posh. The harbour cruise is OK but they are all much of a muchness aren't they. In summary, skip the history, museums and mummies and enjoy yourself instead ;)

NEVER skip History ::) :o It has made us what we all are.

Thus spakes one who taught History for 37 years ;D (which locates my age bracket too :))
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 21, 2011, 04:15:08 AM
I remember my parents dragging me around the museums when I was a youngster. The only thing that interested me? The fascinating collection of shrunken heads!!!  :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 21, 2011, 04:17:00 AM
Nothing about that on Blue Peter! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 21, 2011, 04:23:34 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 21, 2011, 04:15:08 AM
I remember my parents dragging me around the museums when I was a youngster. The only thing that interested me? The fascinating collection of shrunken heads!!!  :o

I owe my late father both my love of Music and my interest in History.

It is a debt that I can never sufficiently repay and for which I consider myself blessed!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 21, 2011, 04:37:19 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 21, 2011, 03:30:58 AM
NEVER skip History ::) :o It has made us what we all are.

Thus spakes one who taught History for 37 years ;D (which locates my age bracket too :))
Me thinks your new nickname should be Zarathustra.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 21, 2011, 04:47:21 AM
I AM actually quite interested in history,particularly local history (Welsh),but not tramping around museums! Art galleries are another thing,even though I like art & actually paint myself.

By the way,is this THE Boston of situation comedy tv fame? The one where everybody knows you're name?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 21, 2011, 04:50:00 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 21, 2011, 04:15:08 AM
I remember my parents dragging me around the museums when I was a youngster. The only thing that interested me? The fascinating collection of shrunken heads!!!  :o
This collection is now in permanent residence in Westminster. There are similar collections in Brussels and Strasbourg. As a school kid I looked forward to Saturday orchestra rehearsals. The rest of the school week wasn't particularly inspiring, excluding chemistry. As residents of the midlands, twice a year we were dragged kicking and screaming to Stratford to suffer Shakespeare. The bus journey there and back was the highlight. Put me off for life. Never been to theatre since other than the odd occasion when I've been in the pit scraping a fiddle to earn a few bob.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 21, 2011, 04:52:04 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 21, 2011, 04:47:21 AM
I AM actually quite interested in history,particularly local history (Welsh),but not tramping around museums! Art galleries are another thing,even though I like art & actually paint myself.

By the way,is this THE Boston of situation comedy tv fame? The one where everybody knows you're name?
1) What colour do you paint yourself?
2) Yes
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 21, 2011, 05:01:31 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 21, 2011, 03:11:06 AM
I beg to differ. Highlighted above -
Point 1: Historical significance? Can't be so. This is the US of A
Point 2: Mummies eh? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I heartily recommend a visit to the Red Sox, a meal at the Barking Crab and a couple of pints at Cheers (Samuel Adams is good ale). Quincy market area is very attractive. Beacon Hill really posh. The harbour cruise is OK but they are all much of a muchness aren't they. In summary, skip the history, museums and mummies and enjoy yourself instead ;)
Must admit I tend to agree with you about all of this,except the Red Sox,maybe. Harbours? Seen one,seen them all,I say! And mummies are never exciting like they are in the movies! As to Shakespeare? That's what composers and music are for. To liven the old Bard up! I had 'A Midsummer Nights Dream' on only last night & very entertaining it was.......with Felix Mendelssohn's help! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 21, 2011, 05:09:40 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2011, 08:38:04 PM


And I could be your father, too, like Jeffrey (I'm from 1961)...
It's going to be like one of those tv soaps,if you are! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2011, 05:18:25 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2011, 02:10:18 PM
Wow!...that's an imposing portrait, Johan  :o  That will scare off the HB poseurs! Only the deadly serious need apply  :D

Why, I'm scared off, already! ; )

Still awaiting your visit, gents, to the Hub of the Universe, though!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2011, 05:20:19 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 20, 2011, 07:00:02 PM
You will also want to visit the Museum of Fine Arts, which has one of the best collections of Egyptian mummies in the world.

Only one reason to visit the MFA, of course!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2011, 05:21:57 AM
Quote from: petrarch on December 20, 2011, 12:34:02 PM
Coincidentally, I will be returning to Boston next month after my 16-month stint in Hong Kong (and I never went on the duck tour...).

When you're back, let's take some tea.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: petrarch on December 21, 2011, 07:08:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 21, 2011, 05:21:57 AM
When you're back, let's take some tea.

Yes!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: petrarch on December 21, 2011, 07:33:46 AM
So I have listened to Psalm 23, Symphony 22, the first part of the Gothic and am halfway through the pre-Proms talk.

I find Symphony 22 more interesting than Psalm 23, but neither did much for me. The first part of the Gothic is good; I love the changes in direction and the jagged contours. I particularly like the sparse passages with those soaring solo lines. I wish the full orchestra bits could be more transparent and delineated--I was tempted to switch to Varèse or Cerha momentarily to satisfy that desire. I listened to extracts of part 2, and the choir reminded me of Welt-Parlament (or was it Engel-Prozessionen?) in the bits that caught my ear; some others were not really my cup of tea (I am not really a big fan of post-baroque vocal music). All in all, still something worthy of digging into more thoroughly.

From the pre-Proms talk: A pro musician talking about 16va???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2011, 07:35:52 AM
Didn't he mean 15ma, you mean?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 21, 2011, 07:39:06 AM
Quote from: petrarch on December 21, 2011, 07:33:46 AM
So I have listened to Psalm 23, Symphony 22, the first part of the Gothic and am halfway through the pre-Proms talk.

I find Symphony 22 more interesting than Psalm 23, but neither did much for me. The first part of the Gothic is good; I love the changes in direction and the jagged contours. I particularly like the sparse passages with those soaring solo lines. I wish the full orchestra bits could be more transparent and delineated--I was tempted to switch to Varèse or Cerha momentarily to satisfy that desire. I listened to extracts of part 2, and the choir reminded me of Welt-Parlament (or was it Engel-Prozessionen?) in the bits that caught my ear; some others were not really my cup of tea (I am not really a big fan of post-baroque vocal music). All in all, still something worthy of digging into more thoroughly.

From the pre-Proms talk: A pro musician talking about 16va???


The Brabbins will take care of that. You can find a splendid review and the broadcast here:


http://5-against-4.blogspot.com/2011/07/proms-2011-havergal-brian-symphony-no-1.html (http://5-against-4.blogspot.com/2011/07/proms-2011-havergal-brian-symphony-no-1.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 21, 2011, 08:06:46 AM
Quote from: petrarch on December 21, 2011, 07:33:46 AM
So I have listened to Psalm 23, Symphony 22, the first part of the Gothic and am halfway through the pre-Proms talk.

I find Symphony 22 more interesting than Psalm 23, but neither did much for me. The first part of the Gothic is good; I love the changes in direction and the jagged contours. I particularly like the sparse passages with those soaring solo lines. I wish the full orchestra bits could be more transparent and delineated--I was tempted to switch to Varèse or Cerha momentarily to satisfy that desire. I listened to extracts of part 2, and the choir reminded me of Welt-Parlament (or was it Engel-Prozessionen?) in the bits that caught my ear; some others were not really my cup of tea (I am not really a big fan of post-baroque vocal music). All in all, still something worthy of digging into more thoroughly.

From the pre-Proms talk: A pro musician talking about 16va???
Don't despair just yet. Give No.10 a spin.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on December 21, 2011, 08:22:38 AM
Quote from: petrarch on December 21, 2011, 07:33:46 AM
So I have listened to Psalm 23, Symphony 22, the first part of the Gothic and am halfway through the pre-Proms talk.

I find Symphony 22 more interesting than Psalm 23, but neither did much for me. The first part of the Gothic is good; I love the changes in direction and the jagged contours. I particularly like the sparse passages with those soaring solo lines. I wish the full orchestra bits could be more transparent and delineated--I was tempted to switch to Varèse or Cerha momentarily to satisfy that desire. I listened to extracts of part 2, and the choir reminded me of Welt-Parlament (or was it Engel-Prozessionen?) in the bits that caught my ear; some others were not really my cup of tea (I am not really a big fan of post-baroque vocal music). All in all, still something worthy of digging into more thoroughly.

From the pre-Proms talk: A pro musician talking about 16va???

I didn't know criticism was allowed on this Thread! :-[ ;D ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 21, 2011, 08:34:07 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on December 21, 2011, 08:22:38 AM
I didn't know criticism was allowed on this Thread! :-[ ;D ;)


Our Gulag is well hidden...


@Paulo Symphony No. 22 is one of the most uncompromising of Brian's late symphonies and not a work I would recommend as a first introduction... No. 10 is another matter entirely. The performance John furnished you with is excellent. It is Brian at his characteristic best.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 21, 2011, 08:44:54 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 21, 2011, 08:34:07 AM

Our Gulag is well hidden...


@Paulo Symphony No. 22 is one of the most uncompromising of Brian's late symphonies and not a work I would recommend as a first introduction... No. 10 is another matter entirely. The performance John furnished you with is excellent. It is Brian at his characteristic best.
Should we send Paulo a link to No.4 or would you like him to hang around a bit longer now that he's trying to be friends with our group of 70 year old, sandal wearing, straggly haired, incense sniffing, unwashed, out of work, bearded yetties? :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 21, 2011, 08:51:49 AM
 ;D


Let Paulo explore some more. If Brian is to his taste, excellent! If not, he'll at least has tried.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: petrarch on December 21, 2011, 09:44:58 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 21, 2011, 07:35:52 AM
Didn't he mean 15ma, you mean?

That is what he meant, of course, but I would expect a pro musician to not fall into that mistake.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2011, 09:46:51 AM
Yes, rather sloppy.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: petrarch on December 21, 2011, 09:47:58 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 21, 2011, 08:34:07 AM
Symphony No. 22 is one of the most uncompromising of Brian's late symphonies and not a work I would recommend as a first introduction...

Uncompromising in what sense?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 21, 2011, 09:52:50 AM
Quote from: petrarch on December 21, 2011, 09:47:58 AM
Uncompromising in what sense?


It's the shortest of them all, only nine minutes. The music is rather dissonant, the thought is very quick and it's not easy to get your bearings on a first listen. The sound isn't 'cosy'. It's a warlike symphony with a bleak conclusion. It has flashes of beauty, but taken as a whole, it is a very grim work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: petrarch on December 21, 2011, 09:54:37 AM
Quote from: petrarch on December 21, 2011, 07:33:46 AM
I wish the full orchestra bits could be more transparent and delineated

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 21, 2011, 07:39:06 AM
The Brabbins will take care of that.

I was listening to the Brabbins. But I'll give it more time and more listens.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 21, 2011, 09:59:00 AM
Quote from: petrarch on December 21, 2011, 09:54:37 AM
I was listening to the Brabbins. But I'll give it more time and more listens.


Ah... Well, perhaps you'll have to get used to Brian's sound. He's no Ravel or Mahler, though he can be as transparant if he wants to. But the main impression I always get is one of solidity, however contrapuntal the music may be...


And now I'll have to cook!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: petrarch on December 21, 2011, 09:59:15 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 21, 2011, 09:52:50 AM
It's the shortest of them all, only nine minutes. The music is rather dissonant, the thought is very quick and it's not easy to get your bearings on a first listen. The sound isn't 'cosy'. It's a warlike symphony with a bleak conclusion. It has flashes of beauty, but taken as a whole, it is a very grim work.

In other words, my kind of work :). I would say texturally it didn't do much for me--I don't mind dissonance at all.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 21, 2011, 10:06:41 AM
No. 22 is rather grey. No. 10, again, is something else. Perhaps that work is more to your liking. Thanks for listening!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 21, 2011, 02:15:00 PM
Another Review on Musicweb, this time from Nick Barnard:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Dec11/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm

He makes many interesting points which the cognoscenti will wish to discuss no doubt ;D
'
........but can I just draw your attention to his last paragraph which contains a recent quote from our friend Andrew Clements of The Guardian. Clements is writing about Delius's 'Mass of Life' and he writes:

"Hardcore English-music enthusiasts are easy enough to spot. Male, conservatively dressed and middle-aged (you suspect most of them looked middle-aged when they were in their 20s), they invariably have an air of disappointment, as if the music they support so enthusiastically has never quite lived up to the expectations they load upon it."

This is just about the most downright objectionable, offensive, patronizing, sneering comment that even this gentlemen has penned to date >:( >:( >:(

How in heaven (or earth) someone who, presumably, purports to love music can wish to so gratuitously insult, offend and denigrate other music-lovers is utterly beyond my comprehension :o :o

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 21, 2011, 02:23:26 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 21, 2011, 02:15:00 PM
Male, conservatively dressed and middle-aged (you suspect most of them looked middle-aged when they were in their 20s), they invariably have an air of disappointment [...]

Of course, Clements on the other hand... oh wait ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 21, 2011, 02:41:39 PM
Quote from: Lethevich Dmitriyevna Pettersonova on December 21, 2011, 02:23:26 PM
Of course, Clements on the other hand... oh wait ;)


;D


I just read Nick Barnard's review. A very clear and level-headed affair. Interesting that he is far from throwing Lenard's Gothic in the bin. In some of the key passages Lenard and his Slovak forces can be better than Brabbins (as Sarge also said yesterday). A few salient quotes:


"Brian is like a child set free in an orchestral toyshop gleefully experimenting with combinations of instruments and resulting textures that would never be found in any guide to orchestration."


"The sheer fecundity of Brian's inspiration is both the work's strength and its source of confusion and annoyance for some. That said, Brian was never seeking to continue or advance the Germanic symphonic tradition through any kind of use of standard musical forms. As a listener you have to embrace the evolutionary concept of much of his handling of structure rather than yearning for neat and tidy sonata form."


"The strength of this work is proved by the fact that ownership of any of the three currently available versions will give great pleasure - a great piece will reveal different facets in different hands. If I was allowed to keep only one, I would opt for this new version but the gap between this and the Naxos is a lot less than one might think especially with regard to the choral contribution."


On to the next review!



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on December 21, 2011, 06:51:43 PM
Quote from: petrarch on December 21, 2011, 03:12:24 AM
I think all HB circle members should be required to get their meeting attire from http://www.gentlemansemporium.com/store/coats.php :).

You know, there's stuff there I'm actually interested in getting.....
But which one of us would get the Vienna Brocade Tailcoat?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 21, 2011, 07:22:07 PM
Johan, have you received your Brabbins Gothic recording yet?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2011, 01:04:40 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 21, 2011, 07:22:07 PM
Johan, have you received your Brabbins Gothic recording yet?


No, alas.  :'(  The postal services must be overstretched.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: petrarch on December 22, 2011, 01:51:57 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 21, 2011, 02:15:00 PM
How in heaven (or earth) someone who, presumably, purports to love music can wish to so gratuitously insult, offend and denigrate other music-lovers is utterly beyond my comprehension :o :o

Reminds me of certain elements in the GMG membership :).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 22, 2011, 03:48:52 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2011, 01:04:40 AM

No, alas.  :'(  The postal services must be overstretched.

Just arrived in Perth :) :)

Shan't be listening until Christmas itself though ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: thranx on December 22, 2011, 02:00:37 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2011, 11:19:37 AM
I found this on Twitter:

@GlobalNews247: Listening Post /Brief reviews of select releases: Classical Havergal Brian, Symphony No. 1 inD-Mino... http://t.co/GhYFCqL0 #Music #News

The review is a bit incoherent at times and contains a few mistakes (Brian wrote more than 20 symphonies after his First). But the work gets three out of four stars... And it's nice to see a new Hobbit on the block - Martyn Braggins.

JZ...I believe you mean that would be Martyn Baggins.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2011, 02:08:57 PM
Quote from: thranx on December 22, 2011, 02:00:37 PM
JZ...I believe you mean that would be Martyn Baggins.

In the article they write 'Braggins', which is a nice conflation of Baggins and Brabbins. That's why I called Martyn a 'new' Hobbit.

Only today I watched the first two LOTR movies with my daughter (12 in a few days' time)... She liked them. Another convert.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 23, 2011, 04:14:32 AM
Has The Gothic arrived in Delft yet, Johan ??? ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2011, 04:16:59 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 23, 2011, 04:14:32 AM
Has The Gothic arrived in Delft yet, Johan ??? ???


Alas, no... Whether it'll be a Brian Christmas, I don't know.  Frustrating.  >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 23, 2011, 04:19:19 AM
Oh no :o

Is there a postal delivery tomorrow?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2011, 04:22:43 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 23, 2011, 04:19:19 AM
Oh no :o

Is there a postal delivery tomorrow?


Yes. And if it isn't there, there'll be a special delivery to the cranium of the nearest post(wo)man.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2011, 04:36:02 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2011, 02:08:57 PM
Only today I watched the first two LOTR movies with my daughter (12 in a few days' time)... She liked them. Another convert.

To languish in the tangent . . . this week is the first I've sat down to any of them (I've started with The R. of the K.)

What are your feelings about the liberties taken in the screen adaptation, Johan? (Feel free to take this to a more appropriate thread, as desired;  I anm interested in as detailed a response as you may be inclined to wind up . . . .)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2011, 04:37:06 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2011, 04:22:43 AM
Yes. And if it isn't there, there'll be a special delivery to the cranium of the nearest post(wo)man.

Don't shoot bludgeon the messenger! : )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2011, 04:43:55 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 23, 2011, 04:36:02 AM
To languish in the tangent . . . this week is the first I've sat down to any of them (I've started with The R. of the K.)

What are your feelings about the liberties taken in the screen adaptation, Johan? (Feel free to take this to a more appropriate thread, as desired;  I anm interested in as detailed a response as you may be inclined to wind up . . . .)


I must be precise - I know all the movies backwards, but I watched them with my daughter for the first time . I do have my opinion(s) about the adaptation. When I have the time, I'll start a thread. Now the first trailer of The Hobbit has arrived, the film LOTR is back in the public consciousness, too...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2011, 04:44:35 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 23, 2011, 04:37:06 AM
Don't shoot bludgeon the messenger! : )


You're right. I should restrain myself.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2011, 04:51:14 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2011, 04:44:35 AM
You're right. I should restrain myself.

Unless you have good reason to believe that the delay in delivery coincides with the post(wo)man's enjoying your compact disc . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2011, 04:52:33 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 23, 2011, 04:51:14 AM
Unless you have good reason to believe that the delay in delivery coincides with the post(wo)man's enjoying your compact disc . . . .


O, but that would constitute a mitigating circumstance!  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 23, 2011, 07:46:31 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 23, 2011, 04:51:14 AM
Unless you have good reason to believe that the delay in delivery coincides with the post(wo)man's enjoying your compact disc . . . .
Very unlikely unless postmen/women in the Netherlands wear sandals, sniff incense, don't eat meat, wear duffle coats, have long smelly beards and don't retire until they are 75. Your typical European Brian fan, Johan excluded of course.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2011, 07:51:37 AM
Sniff incense . . . without burning it, do you mean, John? . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 23, 2011, 07:59:57 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 23, 2011, 07:51:37 AM
Sniff incense . . . without burning it, do you mean, John? . . .
Yes. Without burning it. We are in a serious financial downturn. It lasts longer if you don't burn it. Good tip or what?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2011, 08:08:12 AM
Nicely done!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 24, 2011, 03:48:38 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2011, 04:16:59 AM

Alas, no... Whether it'll be a Brian Christmas, I don't know.  Frustrating.  >:(

Mail from the UK comes very slowly for some reason. Presto sent an order by airmail to me on the 19th. It arrived today. Five days from England to Germany! I think what the Royal Mail means when they specify airmail is....carrier pigeon  ;D

Anyway, I hope your order arrived today. I was sweating it actually--the CD is a Christmas present for my brother-in-law and we see him this evening.


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2011, 03:56:36 AM
Well, it hasn't come, more's the pity. Tonight I'll be watching 'The Return of the King' with my daughter and savouring instead the more Brianesque passages of the music as I watch.

Btw, I have been in contact with Doug Adams, who has written a study about Howard Shore's Ring score, to ask him whether Shore knows Brian's music, as some of his scoring sounds Brianic. It appears that is not the case...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 24, 2011, 06:35:38 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2011, 03:56:36 AM
Well, it hasn't come, more's the pity. Tonight I'll be watching 'The Return of the King' with my daughter and savouring instead the more Brianesque passages of the music as I watch.

Btw, I have been in contact with Doug Adams, who has written a study about Howard Shore's Ring score, to ask him whether Shore knows Brian's music, as some of his scoring sounds Brianic. It appears that is not the case...

Sorry to hear that, Johan :( Inexcusable really in this day and age ::)

Still, something to look forward to very soon after Christmas, I am sure :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 27, 2011, 05:53:58 AM
Rumour has it that Charles Grove's performance of Part 1 of the Gothic Symphony is available as a download (or will be shortly) at a certain rival Classical music forum?! :o
I have heard that the performance was taped!

Other than that,I am amazed to find that the Havergal Brian thread has slipped to 'Page 2'. I hope he's not joining Roy Harris & Henry Cowell,amongst the least visited threads!
Although,I somehow doubt it! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2011, 06:09:09 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 27, 2011, 05:53:58 AM
Rumour has it that Charles Grove's performance of Part 1 of the Gothic Symphony is available as a download (or will be shortly) at a certain rival Classical music forum?! :o

Bah! GMG suffers no serious rival : )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on December 27, 2011, 08:28:40 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 27, 2011, 05:53:58 AM
Rumour has it that Charles Grove's performance of Part 1 of the Gothic Symphony is available as a download (or will be shortly) at a certain rival Classical music forum?! :o

Yes, I've downloaded it but the sound quality is much too poor for it to be be useful. It's a great shame but a good effort fron the poster.

Perhaps John (,you) could do something with it? he's /(you're) rather good with sound quality improvements 8) :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 27, 2011, 08:35:17 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on December 27, 2011, 08:28:40 AM
Yes, I've downloaded it but the sound quality is much too poor for it to be be useful. It's a great shame but a good effort fron the poster.

Perhaps John (,you) could do something with it? he's /(you're) rather good with sound quality improvements 8) :D


Yes, the sound is nothing to write home about. But if you know the piece, or have a score, you can add what you don't hear... What does come through very clearly, though, are Groves' tempi, which are on the slow (even sluggish) side. All in all, this upload is important.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 27, 2011, 08:45:52 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on December 27, 2011, 08:28:40 AM
Yes, I've downloaded it but the sound quality is much too poor for it to be be useful. It's a great shame but a good effort fron the poster.

Perhaps John (,you) could do something with it? he's /(you're) rather good with sound quality improvements 8) :D
Where do I get this from? I'll have a listen.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 27, 2011, 08:57:28 AM
It's on the Unsung Composers forum http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php), in the thread British Music Broadcasts Catalogue and Archive. Download is for members only... Joining is free.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 27, 2011, 11:25:30 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 27, 2011, 08:57:28 AM
It's on the Unsung Composers forum http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php), in the thread British Music Broadcasts Catalogue and Archive. Download is for members only... Joining is free.
Sonically poor. Some parts just disappear. I'm doing knob twiddling to change some of the sound levels here and there. It will be improved but don't expect miracles. I'll post links probably tomorrow.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 27, 2011, 11:28:32 AM
Well, if you can make the hiss disappear even slightly...  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 27, 2011, 01:48:23 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 27, 2011, 08:57:28 AM
It's on the Unsung Composers forum http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php), in the thread British Music Broadcasts Catalogue and Archive. Download is for members only... Joining is free.

Quote from: John Whitmore on December 27, 2011, 11:25:30 AMIt will be improved but don't expect miracles. I'll post links probably tomorrow.

I would respectfully draw your attention to the first notice on the page in question: files are provided on the forum through a combination of generosity and enterprise, and with some sensible disclaimers. Whether or not the downloading member then chooses to 'improve' or otherwise manipulate that file is entirely their own, private concern, but putting donated files casually on open-access is perhaps something to be avoided.

:)

John is clearly very skilled at working on audio files and several members would clearly like to hear the result of his labours - perhaps this could be effected privately between the members concerned.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 27, 2011, 03:07:49 PM
I could see that post coming!!! ;D Don't want to get involved in this,particularly,but maybe an 'improved' copy could be supplied to Albion & made available to members on the appropriate forum itself,with the original contributor's permission,of course? John is a dab hand at this sort of thing,by all accounts.
Only a suggestion,mind! As a non member,it's really none of my business. Anyway,I like it too much here! ;D

On another 'note',I see that the Hyperion release of the 'Gothic' is up for review in the January 2011 issue of International Record Review. A nice,long,intelligent,in depth review,that's what we want! Not the Andrew Clements sort!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 27, 2011, 05:16:28 PM
A four page review should do! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 28, 2011, 12:01:25 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 27, 2011, 03:07:49 PMI could see that post coming!!! ;D

Please see amended post above.

:)

Providing off-air recordings is an activity which is patently of enormous importance but is still something of a 'grey' area in terms of legal 'ownership' - to enable it to continue requires the willingness of members in whichever forum to observe and respect a certain protocol.

;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 28, 2011, 02:04:38 AM
I've finished messing with the 1st movement. It's still basic but the backward brass entries (3 times) have been beefed up, the beginning was very weak so I've changed that a wee bit and generally messed around with the audio balance to try to get some of the hiss removed with moderate success. Before embarking on the other 2 movements please contact me by email for the link and let me know whether or not you think there has been any significant improvement. If not I will pack it in. If you think it's worth pursuing I will have a go at the other 2 files.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 28, 2011, 02:09:29 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 27, 2011, 11:28:32 AM
Well, if you can make the hiss disappear even slightly...  :)
It's Brian's early unpublished version with snakes playing a very prominent part throughout. Ruins it in my opinion.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 02:13:24 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 28, 2011, 02:09:29 AM
It's Brian's early unpublished version with snakes playing a very prominent part throughout. Ruins it in my opinion.


That's what you get when you want an orchestra complete in every department.



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 28, 2011, 02:41:43 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 02:13:24 AM

That's what you get when you want an orchestra complete in every department.
The serpent is a ridiculous looking thing. Just like a clarinet that has been roughly handled by the Royal Mail with a brass mouthpiece instead of a reed. I wonder why you never come across it very often nowadays?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 03:11:33 AM
Just listened to the Whitmore Groves Part 1 Mov. 1.  ;) I think it's swings and roundabouts. The material you have to work with is difficult to improve dramatically. Still, I'd like you to do the other two, too, just as an additional aural perspective.


STOP PRESS The Hyperion Gothic has arrived!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 28, 2011, 04:20:10 AM
Delft is ablaze with sound ;D ;D

You can drown out the "music" from that club/bar opposite to your apartment ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 04:51:02 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 28, 2011, 04:20:10 AM
Delft is ablaze with sound ;D ;D

You can drown out the "music" from that club/bar opposite to your apartment ;D ;D


I just did!! Listened to Part 1 - exhilarated, moved, overwhelmed. As for the Vivace and the climax with the three astonishing bars: no, Brabbins doesn't slow down, the central chord isn't center stage here, but more of a tunnel through which the music surges to D minor. I think this means that Brabbins sees that D minor as the ultimate goal. When I heard that climactic moment again just now it felt as if I were lifted by a big hand from one equally high plateau to the next. In short: for Brabbins that second chord is not central. It's somehow typical for him not to 'fetishise' the chord...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2011, 04:53:20 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 04:51:02 AM

I think this means that Brabbins sees that D minor as the ultimate goal. When I heard it that climactic moment again just now it felt as if I were lifted by a big hand from one equally high plateau to the next. In short: for Brabbins that second chord is not central.

I'll try to listen to it from that perspective. It may help alleviate my (minor) disappointment with Brabbin's Gothic.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 04:59:40 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2011, 04:53:20 AM
I'll try to listen to it from that perspective. It may help alleviate my (minor) disappointment with Brabbin's Gothic.

Sarge


Well, Brabbins has changed my perspective on the passage. For me the final D minor stretch always felt almost as an afterthought. Now it doesn't. If you let yourself be carried along, you'll notice it does make musical sense to see that central F sharp minor chord as transitional, however sensational it may be.


P.S. As I have to go out, I'll save Part 2 for later tonight...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2011, 05:13:40 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 28, 2011, 02:09:29 AM
It's Brian's early unpublished version with snakes playing a very prominent part throughout. Ruins it in my opinion.

The trouble has been when Copperheads are substituted for the more authentic Adder, I heard.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2011, 05:17:02 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 28, 2011, 02:41:43 AM
The serpent is a ridiculous looking thing. Just like a clarinet that has been roughly handled by the Royal Mail with a brass mouthpiece instead of a reed. I wonder why you never come across it very often nowadays?

They're museum pieces, really. This album (http://www.yeodoug.com/publications/le_monde_du_serpent/le_monde_du_serpent.html) (by the Boston Symphony's bass trombonist, Douglas Yeo) is great fun.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 28, 2011, 06:35:44 AM
I've often wondered what that instrument sounded like! I think it's a bit of a beauty myself (the one in Johan's photograph). There's something very Heath Robinson about it.
  Glad to see that file issue sorted out. No (the defunct) Radio 3 Message Board style squabbling here. We're gentlemen! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2011, 06:42:32 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 28, 2011, 05:17:02 AM
They're museum pieces, really. This album (http://www.yeodoug.com/publications/le_monde_du_serpent/le_monde_du_serpent.html) (by the Boston Symphony's bass trombonist, Douglas Yeo) is great fun.

Thanks for the link, Karl. Although I knew what a serpent looked like (and have heard them before in Norrington's LCP recording of the Symphonie fantastique) I could never figure out how they were held. Now I know. Looks quite awkward squeezed between the knees!

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on December 28, 2011, 06:43:56 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 04:51:02 AM

I just did!! Listened to Part 1 - exhilarated, moved, overwhelmed. As for the Vivace and the climax with the three astonishing bars: no, Brabbins doesn't slow down, the central chord isn't center stage here, but more of a tunnel through which the music surges to D minor. I think this means that Brabbins sees that D minor as the ultimate goal. When I heard that climactic moment again just now it felt as if I were lifted by a big hand from one equally high plateau to the next. In short: for Brabbins that second chord is not central. It's somehow typical for him not to 'fetishise' the chord...

mm mm mm

So this is what all the fuss is about? A two hour Symphony,... for one chord ???, haha,... forgive me, but now I know how I must sound when I go on about how so-and-so just doesn't get the "_____" right, haha!!

ahh,... the Brian Thread! ::) ;D


btw- listened to some HB recently, after my last visit. You were discussing No.22, and it was on YT. I don't know, reminds me of that late Malipiero cranky roughness,... nice, short and sweet. I'm sure I like later Brian. But anyway, I did like No.22 (as opposed to petrarch, I believe), and, I've heard No.10. I didn't find No.31. Anyhow, I figured I could just catch up with Brian on YT, but it's not quite clear how many Symphonies are up.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 06:53:00 AM
I know for certain that symphonies 28 and 31 are on YouTube. If you really like late Brian I can give you a link to no. 27, too. But later - I'm watching my daughter on horseback...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2011, 06:54:20 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on December 28, 2011, 06:43:56 AM
mm mm mm

So this is what all the fuss is about? A two hour Symphony,... for one chord ???, haha,... forgive me, but now I know how I must sound when I go on about how so-and-so just doesn't get the "_____" right, haha!!


Along with the A minor explosion at the end of Mahler's Sixth, it's the single most important chord in 1000 years of classical music. I wish I were kidding  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on December 28, 2011, 07:14:40 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2011, 06:54:20 AM
Along with the A minor explosion at the end of Mahler's Sixth, it's the single most important chord in 1000 years of classical music. I wish I were kidding  ;D

Sarge

haha!! :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 28, 2011, 07:25:15 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 06:53:00 AM
I know for certain that symphonies 28 and 31 are on YouTube. If you really like late Brian I can give you a link to no. 27, too. But later - I'm watching my daughter on horseback...
21 is on Youtube as well.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 28, 2011, 08:22:29 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 04:51:02 AM

I just did!! Listened to Part 1 - exhilarated, moved, overwhelmed. As for the Vivace and the climax with the three astonishing bars: no, Brabbins doesn't slow down, the central chord isn't center stage here, but more of a tunnel through which the music surges to D minor. I think this means that Brabbins sees that D minor as the ultimate goal. When I heard that climactic moment again just now it felt as if I were lifted by a big hand from one equally high plateau to the next. In short: for Brabbins that second chord is not central. It's somehow typical for him not to 'fetishise' the chord...

I shall listen again to that passage from your suggested perspective and see what I make of it ;D

At the Albert Hall it just seemed to rush past in a second and before one had time to absorb the impact the massed choirs were being bathed in golden light and rising in unison. Because my breath was quite taken away by that spectacle I seemed to have lost the full force of the Vivace passage. Now..without that (admittedly wonderful) distraction I can more properly concentrate on how Brabbins actually does it ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 08:36:11 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 28, 2011, 08:22:29 AM
I shall listen again to that passage from your suggested perspective and see what I make of it

At the Albert Hall it just seemed to rush past in a second and before one had time to absorb the impact the massed choirs were being bathed in golden light and rising in unison. Because my breath was quite taken away by that spectacle I seemed to have lost the full force of the Vivace passage. Now..without that (admittedly wonderful) distraction I can more properly concentrate on how Brabbins actually does it

I think the first two movements in Brabbins' reading are easily the best ever. I got an interesting (fanciful?) association, hearing the opening: it sounds like a written-out rumble of thunder, capped by a flash of lightning - the sound of Brian's flash of inspiration?

Yes, in the RAH things moved extremely quickly, and the spectacle at the climactic passage did distract a bit from the music. But what an unforgettable sight it was, those rising walls of singers!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 28, 2011, 08:41:49 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 08:36:11 AM


I think the first two movements in Brabbins' reading are easily the best ever. I got an interesting (fanciful?) association, hearing the opening: it sounds like a written-out rumble of thunder, capped by a flash of lightning - the sound of Brian's flash of inspiration?

Yes, in the RAH things moved extremely quickly, and the spectacle at the climactic passage did distract a bit from the music. But what an unforgettable sight it was, those rising walls of singers!

Literally Breathtaking ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 08:47:49 AM
I agree with one observation made by, I think, the Musicweb reviewer, that in future performances (! when?) the choirs should always rise at the F sharp minor chord, but that the soloists should already be on stage, standing up, too (instead of slowly walking to the front).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 28, 2011, 09:00:51 AM
Agreed.

Btw my Christmas present to my nephew was the Hyperion Gothic. It arrived the day before he departed for Christmas in Thailand but too late for him to transfer from his laptop to his Ipod :( Otherwise he would have been listening to it on holiday ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on December 28, 2011, 09:44:34 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 28, 2011, 02:09:29 AM
It's Brian's early unpublished version with snakes playing a very prominent part throughout. Ruins it in my opinion.

John, where is your sound edit copy?  I would be interested to hear it, and of course add it to my Johan "J. Z. Herrenberg" inspired collection!  I haven't listened to Brian for a wee while, which is surprising as I wrote to the RSNO about him and raved like hell hath no enemy when I heard Brian for the first time in 2008 thanks to Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2011, 10:34:10 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 08:36:11 AM
I think the first two movements in Brabbins' reading are easily the best ever.

Agree with that. Which is another reason I was disappointed by the Vivace...the climax anyway. On first listen of those two movements, my expectations for the Vivace were just so high.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2011, 10:35:59 AM
I'll go ahead and state the obvious: it cannot be easy to conduct such a long, big work. And it is less easy still, for there being so few pioneers ahead of this performance.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 10:49:20 AM
You're right, of course, Karl. There is no performance tradition to guide you or make you do otherwise. Still, Brabbins can think for himself and he knows exactly what he is doing. He had already shown that on his Brian CD for Dutton. There, too, you can disagree with some of the tempi he adopted in symphonies 10 and 30, but it is clear everything has been thoroughly thought through. Martyn Brabbins might well become the first real Brian conductor, if time and the economy permit it...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 28, 2011, 11:52:05 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2011, 06:54:20 AM
Along with the A minor explosion at the end of Mahler's Sixth, it's the single most important chord in 1000 years of classical music. I wish I were kidding  ;D

Sarge
Sorry Sarge you must be kidding. It's just a chord and not even an innovative one. On the basis that Brian's Gothic has hardly ever been heard it certainly has had no effect whatsoever on the future direction of music (unlike, for example the Eroica or The Rite of Spring). I like the piece but it isn't ground breaking. It's tonal, hugely entertaining and certainly has its moments. However, it's not a serious piece for study by young composers going through the music academies etc. It's just a good piece. End of story. We must be very careful not to over egg a first symphony by a still relatively unknown English composer. I still find it strange that Bernstein saw the score but never bothered to play any of it. He can't have been that impressed despite his kind words. We've had some decent conductors over the years - Boult, Barbirolli, Beecham, Rattle. They've not done much for Brian either have they? Elgar had kind words for HB but when it came to it there were no actions to support his words. Runs for tin hat.....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2011, 11:55:56 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 28, 2011, 11:52:05 AM
Sorry Sarge you must be kidding. It's just a chord and not even an innovative one. On the basis that Brian's Gothic has hardly ever been heard it certainly has had no effect whatsoever on the future direction of music (unlike, for example the Eroica or The Rite of Spring). I like the piece but it isn't ground breaking. It's tonal, hugely entertaining and certainly has its moments. However, it's not a serious piece for study by young composers going through the music academies etc. It's just a good piece. End of story. We must be very careful not to over egg a first symphony by a still relatively unknown English composer. I still find it strange that Bernstein saw the score but never bothered to play any of it. He can't have been that impressed despite his kind words. We've had some decent conductors over the years - Boult, Barbirolli, Beecham, Rattle. They've not done much for Brian either have they? Elgar had kind words for HB but when it came to it there were no actions to support his words. Runs for tin hat.....

Just the kind of response I'd expect from a heathen unbeliever  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 12:01:48 PM
I agree with John that there are chords in symphonic and operatic literature that have made history. Beethoven and the first chord of the Ninth's finale, Wagner's Tristan chord, Scriabin's 'mystic' chord, Bruckner's apocalyptic chord in his final Adagio and Mahler's in his, Stravinsky's Petrushka chord... I agree with Sarge that the progression of those three chords, the enormous energy in them, is something inspired. And it may not have influenced anyone, it still is one of the great moments in 20th century symphonic music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2011, 12:01:53 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 28, 2011, 11:52:05 AM
. . . I still find it strange that Bernstein saw the score but never bothered to play any of it. He can't have been that impressed despite his kind words.

I guess it depends on what you mean by that impressedLenny may well strike us as flighty and artsy, but he was also capable and organized.  Consider (again) how huge the piece is, the forces (and rehearsals) required.  I think there's plenty of room for Bernstein being impressed by the piece, in harmony with (I am apt to think) perfectly sincere & kind words, but this was not a logistical battle which he chose to undertake.

One of the things I admire about Lenny was his voracious musical appetite.  But, not even Lenny could do everything which he might have wished (in a perfect world) to do.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 28, 2011, 01:20:49 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 28, 2011, 12:01:53 PM
I guess it depends on what you mean by that impressedLenny may well strike us as flighty and artsy, but he was also capable and organized.  Consider (again) how huge the piece is, the forces (and rehearsals) required.  I think there's plenty of room for Bernstein being impressed by the piece, in harmony with (I am apt to think) perfectly sincere & kind words, but this was not a logistical battle which he chose to undertake.

One of the things I admire about Lenny was his voracious musical appetite.  But, not even Lenny could do everything which he might have wished (in a perfect world) to do.
Lenny loved theatre. He loved huge works. He was organised. He was nuts on Mahler - not exactly small scale chamber music is it? He always got his own way with CBS and DGG. Logistics shouldn't have been an issue. He didn't even play part one. Orchestrally it's not hard. Semi pros can play it. OK, it's long but that's no big deal. It's not challenging 12 tone music or technically difficult like Boulez and Birtwistle. Indeed, it's romantic and old fashioned. That's why I enjoy it. Maybe the chorus was an issue. It nearly always is - they tend to be amateurs more used to The Messiah. Maybe the shambolic parts put him off. Who knows. American orchestras would have eaten the symphony alive, especially the New York Phil. CBS made many pioneering LPs with Lenny - Ives, Nielsen come to mind. His Mahler 3 from London was epic. The bottom line is that he didn't play the thing. Maybe he would have preferred a London orchestra to record it with but he was notoriously disliked by the London orchestras. Can't win 'em all. Now where did I put that tin hat........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 03:13:27 PM
Finished listening to the Brabbins Gothic. Of course, I was there in the hall on 17 July 2011, but hearing the performance on CD is something else. The visual and dramatic aspects are gone, and what you have is a very detailed, very analytical reading. All the glitches are miraculously gone (a pity the organ support is still there in the Judex, though). It is as if you are part of the orchestra itself, the music really envelops you. The radio recordings were good, but they are no match for what we have here. Brabbins is very much in control, he keeps a tight rein on this 'monstrous' work. Brabbins is a realist. The music has great clarity and forward momentum. Perhaps my only criticism is that the visionary side of Brian isn't much in evidence. I wonder if it is a generational thing, but Thomas Dausgaard also misses that side in his otherwise excellent Langgaard performances (both are near-contemporaries of mine, though). Mystery needs blurred edges, not too much light of day. I wonder what a Furtwängler would have done with The Gothic!


(I compared Brabbins and Lenard in that crucial Vivace passage - I prefer Brabbins now. I love the way he wrings a crescendo from an already blazing F sharp minor chord, hurling you into D minor. Very powerful.)


OK. I'm done for today!


Just to be clear - I think this is one of the best recordings ever of a Brian symphony.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 28, 2011, 03:25:40 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 28, 2011, 11:52:05 AM
Sorry Sarge you must be kidding. It's just a chord and not even an innovative one. On the basis that Brian's Gothic has hardly ever been heard it certainly has had no effect whatsoever on the future direction of music (unlike, for example the Eroica or The Rite of Spring). I like the piece but it isn't ground breaking. It's tonal, hugely entertaining and certainly has its moments. However, it's not a serious piece for study by young composers going through the music academies etc. It's just a good piece. End of story. We must be very careful not to over egg a first symphony by a still relatively unknown English composer. I still find it strange that Bernstein saw the score but never bothered to play any of it. He can't have been that impressed despite his kind words. We've had some decent conductors over the years - Boult, Barbirolli, Beecham, Rattle. They've not done much for Brian either have they? Elgar had kind words for HB but when it came to it there were no actions to support his words. Runs for tin hat.....

I am not sure what sort of point you are trying to make by citing a list of conductors who might have played Brian's music but didn't. If the quality of a composer's work depends on whether conductors x, y and z perform the music then a number of great composers and a number of great works would fall off the radar.
Boult DID substantially enhance Brian's reputation by giving the first professional performance of the Gothic, a work he clearly believed in and admired, and that first professional performance was, at the time, an immense undertaking for a conductor then aged 77. Boult also gave the first performance of the Eighth Symphony.
Yes, Barbirolli conducted a very great deal of British music but he also tended to shy away from works which he considered "too difficult".
There were huge swathes of British music Beecham wouldn't touch after the 1920s or so. He very seldom performed any Vaughan Williams, for example, and professed not to like that composer's music.
Much the same can be said of Simon Rattle-again, particularly, with respect to Vaughan Williams but also to a large number of other British composers whose music Rattle will simply not perform.

I am not in the business of pronouncing the Gothic one of the greatest musical masterpieces ever composed but it is a very fine piece of music which is now giving an increasing number of people much pleasure and, indeed, excitement. The neglect of Brian's music for so long or the failure of a number of eminent conductors to perform that music has as much bearing on its intrinsic merit as the neglect of the music of Anton Bruckner and Gustav Mahler for so much of the first half of the 20th century.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 29, 2011, 03:34:12 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 28, 2011, 03:25:40 PM
I am not sure what sort of point you are trying to make by citing a list of conductors who might have played Brian's music but didn't. If the quality of a composer's work depends on whether conductors x, y and z perform the music then a number of great composers and a number of great works would fall off the radar.
Boult DID substantially enhance Brian's reputation by giving the first professional performance of the Gothic, a work he clearly believed in and admired, and that first professional performance was, at the time, an immense undertaking for a conductor then aged 77. Boult also gave the first performance of the Eighth Symphony.
Yes, Barbirolli conducted a very great deal of British music but he also tended to shy away from works which he considered "too difficult".
There were huge swathes of British music Beecham wouldn't touch after the 1920s or so. He very seldom performed any Vaughan Williams, for example, and professed not to like that composer's music.
Much the same can be said of Simon Rattle-again, particularly, with respect to Vaughan Williams but also to a large number of other British composers whose music Rattle will simply not perform.

I am not in the business of pronouncing the Gothic one of the greatest musical masterpieces ever composed but it is a very fine piece of music which is now giving an increasing number of people much pleasure and, indeed, excitement. The neglect of Brian's music for so long or the failure of a number of eminent conductors to perform that music has as much bearing on its intrinsic merit as the neglect of the music of Anton Bruckner and Gustav Mahler for so much of the first half of the 20th century.
On this we agree. I just feel that sometimes I have entered a parallel universe on this board. Suggestions of the Gothic containing one of the most important chords in 1000 years of the history of music etc as if it's Tristan. This sort of thing triggers my reality gland. I do know one thing for sure - Brian has his own sound. Like it or lump it, it's Brian. There's often that Lloyd Webber thing going on (he's nicked this bit!) but overall he has his own sound as did Tippett, Martinu, Nielsen and many others. For that he should be given credit.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 29, 2011, 03:36:17 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 03:13:27 PM
Finished listening to the Brabbins Gothic. Of course, I was there in the hall on 17 July 2011, but hearing the performance on CD is something else. The visual and dramatic aspects are gone, and what you have is a very detailed, very analytical reading. All the glitches are miraculously gone (a pity the organ support is still there in the Judex, though). It is as if you are part of the orchestra itself, the music really envelops you. The radio recordings were good, but they are no match for what we have here. Brabbins is very much in control, he keeps a tight rein on this 'monstrous' work. Brabbins is a realist. The music has great clarity and forward momentum. Perhaps my only criticism is that the visionary side of Brian isn't much in evidence. I wonder if it is a generational thing, but Thomas Dausgaard also misses that side in his otherwise excellent Langgaard performances (both are near-contemporaries of mine, though). Mystery needs blurred edges, not too much light of day. I wonder what a Furtwängler would have done with The Gothic!
(I compared Brabbins and Lenard in that crucial Vivace passage - I prefer Brabbins now. I love the way he wrings a crescendo from an already blazing F sharp minor chord, hurling you into D minor. Very powerful.)


OK. I'm done for today!


Just to be clear - I think this is one of the best recordings ever of a Brian symphony.
He would have taken a cursory look, chucked it in the bin and then taken out the score of Brahms 4. ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2011, 03:39:12 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 29, 2011, 03:36:17 AM
He would have taken a cursory look, chucked it in the bin and then taken out the score of Brahms 4.

Doubtless...  ;D  But I was thinking more of the type of conductor he was, compared to the no-nonsense Toscanini, for example.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 29, 2011, 03:50:33 AM
Of course,the Gothic could hardly be any worse than anything Furtwangler wrote! ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 29, 2011, 04:00:34 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2011, 03:39:12 AM
Doubtless...  ;D  But I was thinking more of the type of conductor he was, compared to the no-nonsense Toscanini, for example.
Oh I see. Let's rephrase it then. He would have opened the score very carefully, taken a mysterious look at the first two pages to see if he could make all the edges soft and the entries inaccurate. After due consideration he would have placed the score very gently into the bin and continued the rehearsal with Brahms 4. Toscanini on the other hand would have looked at the first 8 bars, triggering a frightful rage and an onslaught of appalling bad language. The score would be ripped into shreds and thrown towards the woodwind section. The rehearsal would then proceed as normal with a totally over the top Force of Destiny played without a semiquaver out of place. On a more serious note I wonder what Kempe would have made of it? My No.1 by some distance - perfect stick technique, perfect balance (especially in R Strauss) and not one ounce of showmanship. His Don Quixote is exquisite (the 1959 one in Berlin), maybe his Gothic would have been similar. We will never know.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 29, 2011, 04:02:47 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 29, 2011, 03:50:33 AM
Of course,the Gothic could hardly be any worse than anything Furtwangler wrote! ;)
Absolutely. His 1st symphony is grim. Worse than Bruckner.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 29, 2011, 04:14:42 AM
Worse than Bruckner? :o
Even worse than Wetz? :o :o :o
Brian also had the sense to start making his shorter! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 29, 2011, 04:21:01 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 29, 2011, 04:14:42 AM
Worse than Bruckner? :o
Even worse than Wetz? :o :o :o
Brian also had the sense to start making his shorter! :)

Stop it ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 29, 2011, 04:30:08 AM
Actually,I may be mistaken,but I seem to recall that Brian initially planned an even longer (or larger) symphony as a follow up to the 'Gothic' & that some of the orchestral works performed by the Hull Youth SO,and latterly,on Naxos are remnants of that?

Seriously,Dundonnell,the more Brian the better! :)

Actually,I think I'm referring to the so called 'Fantastic Symphony' (1907-08)? This is what comes of not hanging on to Malcolm MacDonalds books!!! But I did have some idea that Brian did,initially,plan a more ambitious follow up to No1 (than No 2,anyway!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 29, 2011, 05:16:51 AM
As I say,this is what comes of not hanging on to Malcolm MacDonalds books! My advice,if the baliffs ever call! Give them the car & the leather settee,but hide the books!
Wish they'd reprint them! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2011, 05:22:32 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 29, 2011, 05:16:51 AM
As I say,this is what comes of not hanging on to Malcolm MacDonalds books! My advice,if the baliffs ever call! Give them the car & the leather settee,but hide the books!
Wish they'd reprint them! :(


The HBS has the remaining copies. If you join, this is what you can see in the Newsletter:


Malcolm MacDonald, The symphonies of Havergal Brian Kahn & Averill
Vol 1: Nos 1-12 hardback (no dustjacket)      ___ @ £7.00*   
Vol 2: Nos 13-29, 2nd edition (softback)       ___ @ £9.00*   
Vol 3: Nos 30-32, Survey and summing up (hardback)     ___ @ £12.00*   Â£___
...discount on any two volumes purchased together      ___ @ –£3.00*   Â£
...discount on all three volumes purchased together      ___ @ –£5.00*   Â£__



So - they are yours for £23


;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 29, 2011, 05:35:15 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2011, 03:13:27 PM
Finished listening to the Brabbins Gothic. Of course, I was there in the hall on 17 July 2011, but hearing the performance on CD is something else.

Yes, indeed! One's own experience in the space is irreproducible by any recording of even the very same performance. Is't not wonderful? : )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2011, 05:41:09 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 29, 2011, 05:35:15 AM
Yes, indeed! One's own experience in the space is irreproducible by any recording of even the very same performance. Is't not wonderful? : )


If it had been a DVD of the televised event, though, the in-hall experience could have come close to being reproduced...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 29, 2011, 06:24:43 AM
£23 is a good price,but with the credit crunch on,I think it's going to have to be the rent & gas first! ;D
Or I could sing some of Havergal Brian's songs outside Tesco.........before the customers move me on!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2011, 06:27:38 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 29, 2011, 06:24:43 AM
£23 is a good price,but with the credit crunch on,I think it's going to have to be the rent & gas first! ;D
Or I could sing some of Havergal Brian's songs outside Tesco.........before the customers move me on!


Piping down the valleys wild...  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 29, 2011, 07:08:23 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 29, 2011, 06:24:43 AM
£23 is a good price,but with the credit crunch on,I think it's going to have to be the rent & gas first! ;D
Or I could sing some of Havergal Brian's songs outside Tesco.........before the customers move me on!
Go for it. I can't stand Tesco. Make 'em suffer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 29, 2011, 07:54:24 AM
Rob Barnett at MusicWeb has referred to the 'Fantastic' symphony a couple of times in reviews as the 'Dance symphony' (a la Copland?) - maybe confusing it with the Festal Dance, which originally formed the finale of the 'Fantastic'...

Brian did nothing apart from finishing the 'Tigers' orchestration for three years after the Gothic's completion, and then plunged into composition again with the second symphony; I don't recall reference to a follow-up symphony larger than the Gothic - although of course the Siegeslled is pretty large. The elephant in Brian's room is maybe Prometheus Unbound of 1937-44, a potentially huge cantata of four hours' duration for which the full score is lost. Some of the choruses have been performed from the vocal score, but that's it.

Anybody know where the full score is? (There's a reward!)

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 29, 2011, 07:58:39 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 29, 2011, 07:54:24 AM
Rob Barnett at MusicWeb has referred to the 'Fantastic' symphony a couple of times in reviews as the 'Dance symphony' (a la Copland?) - maybe confusing it with the Festal Dance, which originally formed the finale of the 'Fantastic'...

Brian did nothing apart from finishing the 'Tigers' orchestration for three years after the Gothic's completion, and then plunged into composition again with the second symphony; I don't recall reference to a follow-up symphony larger than the Gothic - although of course the Siegeslled is pretty large. The elephant in Brian's room is maybe Prometheus Unbound of 1937-44, a potentially huge cantata of four hours' duration for which the full score is lost. Some of the choruses have been performed from the vocal score, but that's it.

Anybody know where the full score is? (There's a reward!)

;)
It might be in my sock draw. I've found all kinds of things in there. I'll have a look after tea :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 29, 2011, 08:29:28 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 29, 2011, 07:54:24 AM
Rob Barnett at MusicWeb has referred to the 'Fantastic' symphony a couple of times in reviews as the 'Dance symphony' (a la Copland?) - maybe confusing it with the Festal Dance, which originally formed the finale of the 'Fantastic'...

Brian did nothing apart from finishing the 'Tigers' orchestration for three years after the Gothic's completion, and then plunged into composition again with the second symphony; I don't recall reference to a follow-up symphony larger than the Gothic - although of course the Siegeslled is pretty large. The elephant in Brian's room is maybe Prometheus Unbound of 1937-44, a potentially huge cantata of four hours' duration for which the full score is lost. Some of the choruses have been performed from the vocal score, but that's it.

Anybody know where the full score is? (There's a reward!)

;)
Thank you for clearing that up. I thought I'd read that somewhere,(but I can't remember where) & that it was only contemplated,as opposed to actually writing anything down.
I obviously confused this with references to the 'Fantastic symphony'.
I MUST be getting old! :(

It's hard not to picture Brian's 'Prometheus Unbound' sitting somewhere in a drawer,garage or attic or library somewhere. There,but no one knowing it's there!
Of course,that's the best case scenario.....in a way!
  The English Suite No 2 'Night Portraits (1915) is another one I would particularly love to hear & probably never will! :(

I also notice,in the Havergal Brian website list of (lost items); 'String quartet' movements (?1903-4) AND a symphonic poem 'Hero & Leander' (1904-6)..............lost by.....SIR THOMAS BEECHAM!!!! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 29, 2011, 08:59:08 AM
I think I have located the source of some of my confusion!!! According to the HBS website,Brian was working on sketches for a 3 movement symphonic drama entitled 'Razamoff'! This,like the 'earlier' (abandoned) 'Fantastic symphony' would have programmatic 'conception'.
I think I saw a mention of this in the liner notes for one of Brian's later works & confused the dates!
Most of Brians music prior to the 'Gothic' was,apparently,programmatic,as was the lost symphonic poem 'Hero & Leander' I mentioned in my previous post!
Victor Herbert's Symphonic poem 'Hero & Leander',I note,dates from 1900!
Attempts at 'googling' 'Razamoff' have,so far,yielded no clues as to what Brian's 'programmatic' Symphonic drama could possibly have been about. (But maybe when I have more time!) It sounds like the sort of programmatic title Granville Bantock dallied with!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 30, 2011, 07:55:22 AM
With the Brabbins' Gothic blasting my apartment in full, glorious splendour....and Yes, Johan, I do think that the performance IS utterly magnificent ;D ;D....

.....I am reading, for the first time, the cd booklet notes by Calum(Malcolm) MacDonald.

You can imagine my joy at reading the quotation from Deryck Cooke in "The Penguin Book of Choral Music", my copy of which has been lost behind a virtually immovable bookcase for many years.

Cooke described Brian's Te Deum as "a dithyrambic paean of complex neo-medieval counterpoint like nothing else in music" that "reveals the mind of a truly visionary genius".

THAT was the very passage I read aloud to Malcolm 49 years ago as I recall in the quad. of our school in Edinburgh ;D ;D It was that very passage which sparked off his interest in a composer on whose music he is now the leading expert in the world.

So.........really, it is all MY doing ;D ;D 

NO, seriously, I am simply delighted to see that passage, the precise wording of which I had long-forgotten, reproduced in the cd booklet.

It is a wonderful piece of music-no comparisons relevant ;D  And the Brabbins performance glows on disc in fantastic sound quality. The BBC/Hyperion engineers have done a marvellous job in allowing us to hear the work in its full splendour.

For those of us lucky enough to have been present the visual spectacle was quite overwhelming. Perhaps, just perhaps, that slightly detracted from one's ability to focus sufficiently on the music itself and on the performance. I am not really qualified to make the sorts of detailed judgments on the performance and interpretation that others have made: the Boult, Schmidt, Lenard, Curro, Brabbins each and every one has much to be said for it in different ways. But, for me, that night Brabbins nailed it. And now I and others can listen again to the music in its full, glorious grandeur.

Mirabile dictu.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 30, 2011, 08:15:04 AM
Beautiful post, Colin. It remains one of the crucial discoveries of my intellectual life - seeing the first volume of Malcolm MacDonald's Brian trilogy on an Amsterdam library shelf in November 1977... Now, 34 years later, I am writing this in answer to the man who sparked MM's interest in the first place. Quite extraordinary. Today is my daughter Dunya's 12th birthday. I think I'll play the Brabbins Gothic again tonight in celebration...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 30, 2011, 08:40:26 AM
Just you go ahead and "Play It Again, Johan" :D :D

It makes you think though, doesn't it, what a small world this now is with the amazing facility of the Internet to bring people together whose paths would almost certainly not have crossed during their short lives but who have common interests, enthusiasms, passions and who can now share their delight :) :)

I remember that my father bought me the Penguin book. I remember reading the Cooke passage and thinking "that sounds great; just the sort of stuff that Malcolm and I would love to hear".

Ultimately, it is a real testimony to the power of language to inspire, motivate, electrify our imaginations. That the late, great Deryck Cooke could in only a few words open up vistas of hope, expectation, excitement in the minds of young boys.

That is the real triumph :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 30, 2011, 08:45:59 AM
I happen to be active on the Deryck Cooke Facebook page and know one of the people who is running the Deryck Cooke Archive. Your words are wonderful, Colin - may I quote you?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 30, 2011, 08:53:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 30, 2011, 08:45:59 AM
I happen to be active on the Deryck Cooke Facebook page and know one of the people who is running the Deryck Cooke Archive. Your words are wonderful, Colin - may I quote you?

Of course you may, Johan :)

I am enormously flattered :-[
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 02, 2012, 02:23:52 PM
Happy New Year!


I found a French review of the Hyperion Gothic. It gets some of its facts wrong, but it is enthusiastic. On Twitter, a few days ago, someone found 'the growth in public knowledge of the music of Havergal Brian' one of the most important musical facts of 2011.


http://www.resmusica.com/2011/12/26/le-gothique-de-la-demesure-d'havergal-brian/ (http://www.resmusica.com/2011/12/26/le-gothique-de-la-demesure-d'havergal-brian/)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 03, 2012, 01:28:33 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 02, 2012, 02:23:52 PM
Happy New Year!


I found a French review of the Hyperion Gothic. It gets some of its facts wrong, but it is enthusiastic. On Twitter, a few days ago, someone found 'the growth in public knowledge of the music of Havergal Brian' one of the most important musical facts of 2011.


http://www.resmusica.com/2011/12/26/le-gothique-de-la-demesure-d'havergal-brian/ (http://www.resmusica.com/2011/12/26/le-gothique-de-la-demesure-d'havergal-brian/)
What's it say? I was only any good at science and music at school >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 03, 2012, 01:46:40 AM
"Composée surtout la nuit, car le jour Brian travaillait comme journaliste ou copiste, la partition ne ressemble à aucune autre !"


Composed during the night, as Brian worked as a journalist and copyist by day, the score looks like nothing else!


"Le traitement choral évoque Berlioz, Elgar ou même le jeune Schoenberg, tandis que l'instrumentation n'épargne aucun pupitre à l'image de la redoutable cadence confiée au xylophone dans le deuxième mouvement. Les chocs entre les parties chorales et orchestrales sont véritablement explosifs, pas si éloignés des expérimentations de Ives ou Varèse, tandis que les passages choraux évoquent la musique anglaise de la renaissance.  L'écriture du compositeur est particulièrement libre dans ses développements chromatiques et modaux."


In short: the choral writing evokes Berlioz, Elgar and even the young Schoenberg, and the orchestration doesn't scrimp, including a fearsome xylophone cadenza in the second (!) movement. There are explosions reminiscent of Ives and Varèse, whilst some of the choral passages hark back to Tudor times. The writing is freely chromatic and modal.


"Chef d'une rare flexibilité, grand défricheur de raretés, Martyn Brabbins est le partenaire idéal. Il galvanise des forces chorales et musicales engagés comme rarement. De par sa culture musicale, il fait ressortir l'originalité de l'écriture et les multiples influences ou les aspects modernistes. Cette lecture portée par une énergie unique, surclasse les deux autres versions disponibles : celle pionnière de Boult (Testament) ou celle trop  modeste d'Ondrej Lenard (Naxos)."


A conductor of rare flexibility, great decipherer of rareties, Martyn Brabbins is the ideal partner. He galvanises his choral and orchestral forces, who are exceptionally committed. He clearly brings out the originality of the writing, the multiple influences and the modernist aspects. This reading, imbued with a unique energy, outclasses the two other available versions - the pioneering Boult one and the Lenard.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 03, 2012, 01:57:12 AM
Thanks Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 03, 2012, 08:15:41 AM
I should have some good news for you all in a few weeks time. A couple of professional LP transfers are on the way. Not by me. Proper professional ones. I'm partly involved - I've had a sneak preview of one of the files and I am very hopeful indeed. ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 05, 2012, 05:30:17 AM
Excellent, very detailed full page review of the Brabbins Gothic in the new issue of 'International Record Review' (the magazine for "the Serious Classical Collector").

Written by Richard Whitehouse the review has almost nothing but praise for the performance of a work which it describes as "a flawed masterpiece that risks so much in staking out the listener's awareness of its greatness"-a phrase I rather like ;D

I also like Whitehouse's early statement that "mocking is easy as a substitute for constructive criticism".

As an exceptionally acute review of the performance, almost minute by minute, this is a must read for Brianites and non-Brianites alike.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on January 05, 2012, 05:56:41 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 03, 2012, 08:15:41 AM
I should have some good news for you all in a few weeks time. A couple of professional LP transfers are on the way. Not by me. Proper professional ones. I'm partly involved - I've had a sneak preview of one of the files and I am very hopeful indeed. ;)

This is exciting news John.  I am slabbering to hear them.

And I must look out the Brian review in IRR, to which I have no subscription.  I am very interested to read that Colin.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 05, 2012, 06:21:42 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 05, 2012, 05:30:17 AM
Excellent, very detailed full page review of the Brabbins Gothic in the new issue of 'International Record Review' (the magazine for "the Serious Classical Collector").

Written by Richard Whitehouse the review has almost nothing but praise for the performance of a work which it describes as "a flawed masterpiece that risks so much in staking out the listener's awareness of its greatness"-a phrase I rather like ;D

I also like Whitehouse's early statement that "mocking is easy as a substitute for constructive criticism".

As an exceptionally acute review of the performance, almost minute by minute, this is a must read for Brianites and non-Brianites alike.


:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 05, 2012, 07:23:14 AM
Quote from: John of Clydebank on January 05, 2012, 05:56:41 AM
This is exciting news John.  I am slabbering to hear them.
Heard more samples today and artwork is underway. Really happy with the progress.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 06, 2012, 09:34:59 AM
I see in the Radio Times schedule for R3,Monday January 9th,this!

Brian: Symphony No 1 in D Minor (Gothic) 00.30-02.19

It's the Brabbins! Something to listen to in bed? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 06, 2012, 10:04:31 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 06, 2012, 09:34:59 AM
I see in the Radio Times schedule for R3,Monday January 9th,this!

Brian: Symphony No 1 in D Minor (Gothic) 00.30-02.19

It's the Brabbins! Something to listen to in bed? ;D
No ta. Have preferable options in bed ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on January 06, 2012, 10:05:29 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 06, 2012, 09:34:59 AM
I see in the Radio Times schedule for R3,Monday January 9th,this!
Brian: Symphony No 1 in D Minor (Gothic) 00.30-02.19
It's the Brabbins! Something to listen to in bed? ;D

Fabulous cilgwyn.  Thanks for that.  I will be tuning in and may attatch all manner of devices and software on listening to hear it more after the scheduled broadcast.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 06, 2012, 11:55:26 AM
It might not be the right kind of music,for.......?!!!! :o Mind you,if the volume is turned up loud enough & you give it enough bass,it could make the earth move!
For those of us with nothing better to do,headphones might be a good idea. Can't imagine the neighbours responding positively to the Gothic at 1am! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 06, 2012, 12:00:57 PM
I wonder, indeed, whether the BBC wants Brianites to turn into the neighbours from Hell...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2012, 12:37:19 PM
There's that old Rutland Weekend Television gag of Eric Idle's:

Quote. . . would like to remind you that playing your records loud at night will annoy and irritate the neighbours.

Another good way to annoy and irritate the neighbours
is . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 06, 2012, 01:08:00 PM
Thanks for reminding me of that one, Karl!  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 06, 2012, 01:48:53 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 06, 2012, 12:37:19 PM
There's that old Rutland Weekend Television gag of Eric Idle's:
Not heard of that TV programme for years. Our school exercise books in the early 1960s used to have embazoned at the top: Leicestershire and Rutland Education Authority (logo of Fox). Rutland is slightly bigger than my back garden.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 06, 2012, 02:20:35 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 06, 2012, 01:48:53 PM
Not heard of that TV programme for years. Our school exercise books in the early 1960s used to have embazoned at the top: Leicestershire and Rutland Education Authority (logo of Fox). Rutland is slightly bigger than my back garden.


What's the name of your back garden?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 01:05:28 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 06, 2012, 02:20:35 PM

What's the name of your back garden?
Cheshire
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 01:56:36 AM
Richard Whitehouse, in his review of The Gothic in IRR, calls it a 'flawed masterpiece'...


As someone who knows all of Brian's symphonies, I have come to recognise the passages where Brian has to get from inspired idea A to inspired idea B. Sometimes he just uses a pause, Bruckner fashion, but more often there is a (short) linking passage, built on a rhythm, that gets him into the target tonality. These linking passages can have their own beauty, but sometimes they are rather mechanical. This happens in The Gothic, too, but to these ears only in the final movement, where after the opening tenor solo you have a few minutes of choral build-up with no real payoff. That's the only flaw I see in the whole of The Gothic. The rest is absolutely inspired.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 02:05:49 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 01:56:36 AM
Richard Whitehouse, in his review of The Gothic in IRR, calls it a 'flawed masterpiece'...


As someone who knows all of Brian's symphonies, I have come to recognise the passages where Brian has to get from inspired idea A to inspired idea B. Sometimes he just uses a pause, Bruckner fashion, but more often there is a (short) linking passage, built on a rhythm, that gets him into the target tonality. These linking passages can have their own beauty, but sometimes they are rather mechanical. This happens in The Gothic, too, but to these ears only in the final movement, where after the opening tenor solo you have a few minutes of choral build-up with no real payoff. That's the only flaw I see in the whole of The Gothic. The rest is absolutely inspired.
GRRRRRRR!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 02:24:19 AM
OK, we have Bruckner fans on here. Each to their own. Let me share something with you.

http://www.klassichaus.us/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 02:54:22 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 02:24:19 AM
OK, we have Bruckner fans on here. Each to their own. Let me share something with you.

http://www.klassichaus.us/

Thanks for the link.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/Hortense.jpg)

Hortense von Gelmini....now there's a conductor seldom discussed around these parts  ;D  She has guest conducted my local band (the Staatsphilharmonie Rheinland-Pfalz).

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 04:21:09 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 02:54:22 AM
Thanks for the link.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/Hortense.jpg)

Hortense von Gelmini....now there's a conductor seldom discussed around these parts  ;D  She has guest conducted my local band (the Staatsphilharmonie Rheinland-Pfalz).

Sarge
You are welcome Sarge. I've purchased downloads off this site. I can vouch for their quality. Haven't heard the Bruckner transfers. Surprise, surprise :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 09:35:54 AM
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/1972/0301004c.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2012-01-07

Just bought this! :)
Haven't got it yet,but ye olde cheque's in the post.
Nice to see my favourite Brian symphony,No3, (sorry Gothic!) [& some other people's] in the photo.
MM is in my experience of music books,one of the few people who can evoke the sound world of a symphony in words. This book really opened up these symphonies,for me,as a teenage boy.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on January 07, 2012, 09:40:46 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 01:56:36 AMThese linking passages can have their own beauty, but sometimes they are rather mechanical. This happens in The Gothic, too, but to these ears only in the final movement, where after the opening tenor solo you have a few minutes of choral build-up with no real payoff. That's the only flaw I see in the whole of The Gothic. The rest is absolutely inspired.

I'll listen for that spot (with a bit of regret) next time I hear the symphony. I personally still have a hard time finding much nourishment in the fourth movement, after the first five minutes or so, and the la-la-la-la throws me for a complete loop even if it builds up to stupendous heights.

Might have to finally give a first listen to the Hyperion discs this afternoon!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 09:44:15 AM
Congratulations, cilgwyn! Good news! Following on from my last post - the transition between the first and second subject in that first movement of the Third Symphony is marvellous ("powerful" and "a typical Brian contrapuntal complex", as MM rightly calls it). And Stanley Pope does it full justice, whereas Lionel Friend on Hyperion accelerates, for one reason or another.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 09:49:09 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 07, 2012, 09:40:46 AM
I'll listen for that spot (with a bit of regret) next time I hear the symphony. I personally still have a hard time finding much nourishment in the fourth movement, after the first five minutes or so, and the la-la-la-la throws me for a complete loop even if it builds up to stupendous heights.

Might have to finally give a first listen to the Hyperion discs this afternoon!


The la-la-la-la is among Brian's most controversial inspirations. It is hard to 'understand'. I don't even know if there is anything to understand there. I read one commentator who thinks it alludes to soldiers at the start of World War I, going to the battlefield, singing, knowing nothing of the horrors to come. I simply don't know.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on January 07, 2012, 11:02:32 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 07, 2012, 09:40:46 AM
I'll listen for that spot (with a bit of regret) next time I hear the symphony. I personally still have a hard time finding much nourishment in the fourth movement, after the first five minutes or so, and the la-la-la-la throws me for a complete loop even if it builds up to stupendous heights.

Might have to finally give a first listen to the Hyperion discs this afternoon!

As I did, once again, with much relish at hearing all those strands uncovered. I haven't given my thoughts on the Brabbins recording yet, only my initial awed response after going to the concert itself. But then I have hardly posted a thing here for weeks. FWIW, I think the CD is a dazzling success in many ways, but - can I even say it - at times I find myself regreting some of Brabbins' tempo choices in the first movement - the slower 9/8 sections are taken too fast, it seems to me, at the same speed as the surrounding Allegros. Brian marks them slower, in various ways, and I'm not sure why Brabbins rushes at them...no, I suppose he is trying to keep a continuous momentum, perhaps trying to efface the supposedly problematic overly bipartite characteristics of this movement. But as one who has been rather alone in being wholly convinced by this movement, and in fact one who feels that its falling-apart-at-the-seams nature is part of its success, its radicalism (it reminds me slightly of the first movement of Mahler 9 in some respects) - and as one who finds these utterly haunting 9/8 sections some of the most beautiful music in the piece, I find it a shame that they are rather whizzed through. But I would love to be convinced, because other than things like this, the CD seems to me a triumph.

Over the Christmas break I was reading the first volume of Anthony Burgess' autobiography. But I had to put it down for a while (in fact I've hardly been able to pick it up again) when I turned a page and was shocked to find his damning opinion of the Gothic and Brian in general. He didn't 'get it', perhaps not surprisingly - so many didn't and still don't - but it's not fun to see a writer one admires turn his withering scorn on a composer one loves! Anybody else read it? If not, I will try to grit my teeth and copy it out for the benefit of the thread  ;D

And now switching even more into ramble mode.....

as this thread is such a valuable resource of things Brianic, has anyone else here read the fairly long and favourable entry on HB in Mark Morris' Dictionary of Twentieth Century Composers? Worth a read (and in the context of this discussion, for its lengthy discussion of the Gothic, which Morris absolutely raves about - it is a masterpiece, he thinks, 'the climax of the Romntic age...an experience quite unlike anything else in musc' which 'entirely justifies' its huge forces). It's not a totally comprehensive dictionary, and the editing leaves much to be desired (in the HB entry there is mention of his Double Fugue in E, for instance), but it's the best thing of this type I've seen. Morris arbitraily awards composer *** or ** or * or no stars at all (most of them). *** is Debussy, Stravinsky, Bartok,  Schoenbrg - the BIG names. ** is Enescu, Dallapiccola, Busoni, Adams, Barber, Delius, Bloch, Glass, Dukas, Holst, Miaskovsky, Kurtag, Villa-Lobos, Wlaton, Rubbra, Respighi, Scriabin etc. * is Bantock, Alwyn, Ustvolskaya, Corigliano..... Morris ranks Brian as a ** composer, which is pleasing.

Also OTTOMH is Wilfrid Mellers' passing judgement on Brian in his RVW book. Intrigued, guardedly favourable but not without criticism, essentially of Brian's melodic skills. He may have a point, or he may be missing one...

All of these copiable on request  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 11:17:28 AM
Many thanks, Luke, for gracing this thread with your presence again...  ;D No, but seriously, it's always a pleasure to read your comments. I agree with you - the one weakness Brabbins still has as a 'budding Brian conductor' is, sometimes, a wrong choice of tempo. This (slightly) mars his readings of symphonies 10 and 30 on the Dutton CD, too. As I noted earlier, he is too much of a Toscanini, and I would dearly see him develop more 'inwardness'. Speed kills pathos and grandeur in Brian. Brian isn't your brisk allegro composer, mostly.


Please copy the Burgess quotation. Burgess was a symphonist himself and might have resented the fact of Brian's relative success... Very interested in the Mark Morris entry, too. The Mellers I know. But others perhaps won't...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 11:28:25 AM
(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/4996/0301004ff.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2012-01-07

A bit closer,(esp if you click on the image)so people who haven't got this book can get a flavour of what they're missing. I seem to recall that MM'S description of the second movement of Das Siegesled was particularly alluring.
Can't see any 'foxing'! What I hate most is that strong musty stench you get,when books go yellowy. You need a World War ii,or i (mustard gas?) issue gas mask to read it! (I expect they have them on ebay!)

I like those la-la-la's in the Gothic. I can't understand why people have a problem with them.They're lovely & never cease to suprise me. Delius gets some stick for doing this in a 'Mass of Life',doesn't he? (You're the 'expert' on FD,Johan).
Morris's book sounds interesting,Brian;but I must say,I do find all this ranking of composers a bit of a pain,really.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 11:36:01 AM
MM's books should have come with a cigarette style warning really,as his writing could turn you into a HB addict!

" with unvarying pace they spread through the whole orchestra,like the tramp and murmur of a great army"

It's like reading a really good novel!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 11:51:01 AM
Two refurbished Brian LPs hot off the press. $5 per download. I've heard them. Absolutely brilliant.
http://www.klassichaus.us/index.php
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 11:52:49 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 11:36:01 AM
MM's books should have come with a cigarette style warning really,as his writing could turn you into a HB addict!

" with unvarying pace they spread through the whole orchestra,like the tramp and murmur of a great army"

It's like reading a really good novel!


I was never warned as an impressionable 16-year old... The rest is history.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 11:57:38 AM
Actually,that would have only made the addiction worse........thank goodness! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 12:10:28 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 11:51:01 AM
Two refurbished Brian LPs hot off the press. $5 per download. I've heard them. Absolutely brilliant.
http://www.klassichaus.us/index.php (http://www.klassichaus.us/index.php)


I am, of course, interested!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 12:20:34 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 11:51:01 AM
Two refurbished Brian LPs hot off the press. $5 per download. I've heard them. Absolutely brilliant.
http://www.klassichaus.us/index.php

I have the LP with 22 and Psalm 23 but I would like the CD for convenience and cleaner sound. I'll be ordering it. (Klassichaus is located in Oklahoma! I would not have expected that  ;D )

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 12:25:19 PM
I am downloading both CDs as I write. I used PayPal and got a warning about payloadz.com, which I ignored. Everything went smoothly. On with the music!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 12:29:45 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 12:20:34 PM
I have the LP with 22 and Psalm 23 but I would like the CD for convenience and cleaner sound. I'll be ordering it. (Klassichaus is located in Oklahoma! I would not have expected that  ;D )

Sage
Sarge, I hated the CBS sound. The new download has added ambience, a cleaner top end and a deeper sound stage. The lack of background sludge in No.22 brings out inner details missing from the pressing. It's a very good piece of restoration.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on January 07, 2012, 12:35:02 PM
Wow, the sonic improvement Hyperion achieved is really unmistakeable all the way through. Only two gripes: the timpani are a bit fogged up at the great 'gear-shift' which closes the vivace, and the extraordinary silence which filled the Albert Hall after the final chords has been cut from 30 seconds to only 10.

My MusicWeb review is finished... at 3,550 words  ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 12:37:01 PM
Just compared the opening of No. 10 - the Unicorn Kanchana CD sounds tinny and hoarse, the new restoration dark and warm, like I remember from the LP. Good work!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 12:38:31 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 12:25:19 PM
I am downloading both CDs as I write. I used PayPal and got a warning about payloadz.com, which I ignored. Everything went smoothly.

I ordered the actual CD. No problems encountered. Now for a two to three week wait.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 12:40:11 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 07, 2012, 12:35:02 PM
Wow, the sonic improvement Hyperion achieved is really unmistakeable all the way through. Only two gripes: the timpani are a bit fogged up at the great 'gear-shift' which closes the vivace, and the extraordinary silence which filled the Albert Hall after the final chords has been cut from 30 seconds to only 10.

My MusicWeb review is finished... at 3,550 words  ???


Can't wait to read your undoubtedly sober but positive assessment... Two gripes in 2 hours is acceptable, I think.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 12:43:56 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 12:29:45 PM
Sarge, I hated the CBS sound. The new download has added ambience, a cleaner top end and a deeper sound stage. The lack of background sludge in No.22 brings out inner details missing from the pressing. It's a very good piece of restoration.

Sounds super. Can't wait. If only the mail were as fast as a download  ;D

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 12:37:01 PM
Just compared the opening of No. 10 - the Unicorn Kanchana CD sounds tinny and hoarse, the new restoration dark and warm, like I remember form the LP. Good work!

You couldn't have kept that to yourself? Damn it, Johan...you're gonna cost me money.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 12:46:05 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 07, 2012, 12:35:02 PM
My MusicWeb review is finished... at 3,550 words  ???

Who do you think you are, Brian...the Havergal Brian of critics?...this review your Gothic? You need an editor, boy  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 12:47:54 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 12:43:56 PM
You couldn't have kept that to yourself? Damn it, Johan...you're gonna cost me money.


Truth will out.  8)


;D


Now listening to Reverie, from English Suite No. 5. It's great to be able to listen to this (again), and in better sound quality than the first time.


End of commercial.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 12:48:35 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 12:37:01 PM
Just compared the opening of No. 10 - the Unicorn Kanchana CD sounds tinny and hoarse, the new restoration dark and warm, like I remember from the LP. Good work!
Glad you like it. The "official" CD never worked did it? Made the orchestra sound dessicated. I use mine as a drinks coaster.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 12:51:29 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 12:46:05 PM
Who do you think you are, Brian...the Havergal Brian of critics?...this review your Gothic? You need an editor, boy  ;D

Sarge


:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 01:07:15 PM
Good to read Luke's quotations from Mark Morris's Dictionary of Twentieth Century Composers, a quite excellent book which has been a standby for me for many years. Morris's judgments are almost unvaryingly accute and sound with the exceptions, for me, of his damning criticisms of the music of Malcolm Arnold and Robert Simpson :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 01:22:56 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 01:07:15 PM
Good to read Luke's quotations from Mark Morris's Dictionary of Twentieth Century Composers, a quite excellent book which has been a standby for me for many years. Morris's judgments are almost unvaryingly accute and sound with the exceptions, for me, of his damning criticisms of the music of Malcolm Arnold and Robert Simpson :(
Both wonderful composers in their different ways. There's nothing Malcolm didn't know about the orchestra. Nothing. He wrote finished works. not reworked sketches. Truly remarkable. As for Simmo - his 9th is just about beyond criticism. I love his sound world. I would like to hear Mr. Morris's music. Did he write any?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 01:35:52 PM
If Mark Morris likes Havergal Brian & you like his book,Dundonnell, he must be worth picking up! I remember you're quote (from his book) about Mathias,and much as I like some of his music & am,even impressed by some of it,I have some sympathy for his viewpoint. Shame about Malcolm Arnold,'the Great Misunderstood!' I recently collected the Naxos cycle,which I hadn't heard. I am now completely won over. A tremendous cycle! Marvellous! In hindsight,Arnolds own,endearing,but self indulgent recordings (particularly the fourth) didn't help!
Anyway,back to Brian!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 01:43:41 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 01:35:52 PM
If Mark Morris likes Havergal Brian & you like his book,Dundonnell, he must be worth picking up! I remember you're quote (from his book) about Mathias,and much as I like some of his music & am,even impressed by some of it,I have some sympathy for his viewpoint. Shame about Malcolm Arnold,'the Great Misunderstood!' I recently collected the Naxos cycle,which I hadn't heard. I am now completely won over. A tremendous cycle! In hindsight,Arnolds own endearing,but self indulgent recordings (particularly the fourth) didn't help!!!
Anyway,back to Brian!

".....back to Brian!" ??? ??? :o

I was under the impression that this was an all-encompassing stream of consciousness thread which has (and probably will continue to) incorporated discussion of a whole range of barely related topics, including, most recently, the comparative land masses of the county of Rutland and John's garden-the relevance of which to the music of Havergal Brian is so tenuous that it would need an extraordinarily astute detective to establish ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 01:47:35 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 01:43:41 PM
".....back to Brian!" ??? ??? :o

I was under the impression that this was an all-encompassing stream of consciousness thread which has (and probably will continue to) incorporated discussion of a whole range of barely related topics, including, most recently, the comparative land masses of the county of Rutland and John's garden-the relevance of which to the music of Havergal Brian is so tenuous that it would need an extraordinarily astute detective to establish ::)

Hey, how about them Knicks? (Just trying to reestablish this thread as an all encompassing stream of consciousness thread  :D ;) )

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 01:48:10 PM
Well, Colin, I think this thread is very Brianic - just as Brian's music can veer off in unforeseen directions, so does this thread. But in the end, the music of Brian is always there. Or as the man himself said (about Delius...): plot is always with us.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 01:53:50 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 01:48:10 PM
Well, Colin, I think this thread is very Brianic - just as Brian's music can veer off in unforeseen directions, so does this thread. But in the end, the music of Brian is always there. Or as the man himself said (about Delius...): plot is always with us.

So, if that is the case, am I at liberty to explore the apparent dichotomy between John's oft-expressed aversion to the music of Anton Bruckner-which he claims sends him to sleep-and his evident admiration for Robert Simpson's wonderful Symphony No.9 which is sometimes described as Simpson's most Brucknerian symphony and is certainly a tribute to the great Austrian composer?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 01:57:25 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 01:43:41 PM
".....back to Brian!" ??? ??? :o

I was under the impression that this was an all-encompassing stream of consciousness thread which has (and probably will continue to) incorporated discussion of a whole range of barely related topics, including, most recently, the comparative land masses of the county of Rutland and John's garden-the relevance of which to the music of Havergal Brian is so tenuous that it would need an extraordinarily astute detective to establish ::)
Rutland inspired Brian to write his Symphonia brevis after a round trip of the county that took him less than 15 minutes to complete. My garden is on a hill and during inclimate weather it brings The Restless Stream into sharp relief as water rushes down the slope onto the road at the bottom. These barely related topics, like much of Brian's writing, are more relevant to this forum than you first think. I've spent 4 whole days trying to get LP restorations launched in the USA. I've done my bit for good old HB. I need a drink. I'm turning Tippett off now. The footie beckons..........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 02:01:16 PM
The way Arnold assimilates popular & classical idioms in his symphonies is truly astonishing. I think the only composer who did it as convincingly was Gershwin,who sadly kicked the bucket before he could try his hand at a symphony. The scandalously neglected Grant Still is another example. His Second & third symphonies might not have the 'pop' tunes,but they are arguably more subtle than some of the more populistic war horses that Gershwin wrote,much as I love 'em! (Porgy & Bess is on a different level,altogether!)
The 6th & 7th are astounding. Mahlerian anguish meets 'The Chieftains' in the latter!!! :o
Of course this isn't an Arnold thread,but like Brian,Arnold was misunderstood.
Brian was allot more philosophical about his 'neglect',though!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 02:03:57 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 01:53:50 PM
So, if that is the case, am I at liberty to explore the apparent dichotomy between John's oft-expressed aversion to the music of Anton Bruckner-which he claims sends him to sleep-and his evident admiration for Robert Simpson's wonderful Symphony No.9 which is sometimes described as Simpson's most Brucknerian symphony and is certainly a tribute to the great Austrian composer?


If you want to - yes, but only in a certain way.... Both Bruckner and Simpson have to do with Brian. And I can't understand liking the monumental architecture of Simpson's Ninth and not liking Bruckner neither! So, the different forms monumentality can take in symphonic music is worth a discussion (which John's mysterious dislike will then have sparked off).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 02:04:08 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 01:53:50 PM
So, if that is the case, am I at liberty to explore the apparent dichotomy between John's oft-expressed aversion to the music of Anton Bruckner-which he claims sends him to sleep-and his evident admiration for Robert Simpson's wonderful Symphony No.9 which is sometimes described as Simpson's most Brucknerian symphony and is certainly a tribute to the great Austrian composer?

As a fellow Brucknerite, please do!  8)

And if you are actually taking cilgwyn's comment as some type of criticism, I'm sure he only meant the comment to reflect on his own off-topic jabber...which I appreciate, by the way...as much as I appreciate yours and John's jabber. Makes the thread interesting.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 02:07:39 PM
It depends how far you go off topic,doesn't it 'Sarge?' I mean if I start droning on about the price of baked beans!
But then of course,there is a possibility that Havergal Brian liked Baked Beans,so there could be a connection! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 02:09:38 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 02:07:39 PM
It depends how far you go off topic,doesn't it 'Sarge?'

Well, yes. We don't want to drive it off a cliff. Might get messy.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 02:11:38 PM
And the consequences of Brian eating allot of baked beans while composing the Gothic symphony are too awful to think about!
Anyway,back to Arnold........I mean,Brian!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 02:13:08 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 02:11:38 PM
And the consequences of Brian eating allot of baked beans while composing the Gothic symphony are too awful to think about!


I thought of shouting 'Don't go there!' when you started about baked beans. O my prophetic soul!  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on January 07, 2012, 02:15:23 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 12:46:05 PM
Who do you think you are, Brian...the Havergal Brian of critics?...this review your Gothic? You need an editor, boy  ;D

Sarge

;D ;D I put little bolded headers at the beginning of each section, and noted in the introduction that readers may skip about as desired. The first is a little statement on the future of the symphony, the second is an outline of what happens (for newcomers), the third discusses the performance, the fourth discusses what Hyperion's done for the release, and the fifth is a strongly worded hint to Chandos that they should call Brisbane and license the Curro Gothic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 02:15:35 PM
Indeed! Blazing Gothic!!! (Saddles)!!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 02:15:46 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 02:11:38 PM
And the consequences of Brian eating allot of baked beans while composing the Gothic symphony are too awful to think about!

Good god, I hope Andrew Clements isn't reading this thread. He could use that to prove his anti-Brian bias  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 02:18:10 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 07, 2012, 02:15:23 PM
;D ;D I put little bolded headers at the beginning of each section, and noted in the introduction that readers may skip about as desired. The first is a little statement on the future of the symphony, the second is an outline of what happens (for newcomers), the third discusses the performance, the fourth discusses what Hyperion's done for the release, and the fifth is a strongly worded hint to Chandos that they should call Brisbane and license the Curro Gothic.


I like it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 02:18:52 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 07, 2012, 02:15:23 PM
;D ;D I put little bolded headers at the beginning of each section, and noted in the introduction that readers may skip about as desired. The first is a little statement on the future of the symphony, the second is an outline of what happens (for newcomers), the third discusses the performance, the fourth discusses what Hyperion's done for the release, and the fifth is a strongly worded hint to Chandos that they should call Brisbane and license the Curro Gothic.

I heartily approve of your efforts on Brian's account. Good boy  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 02:23:54 PM
I hope they do. Unfortunately,as far as I can make out,Chandos don't seem to like Brian (Havergal!) that much,as far as I can make out. Posts on their forum were generally rewarded by,what might be described as a polite,or,deafening silence.
I  hope I'm wrong. But in all these years,they haven't recorded much! Perhaps the current resurgence of interest might change their mind?

And,by the way,how ABOUT them Knicks?!!! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 02:31:12 PM
You can't beat a bit of banter and jibber jabber. Most of the best musicians I've had any dealings with hate the hand wringing serious, intellectual stuff. They like beer, football, comedians and all the usual things. When it comes to playing the dots properly they are mega serious, of course. It's just a job though at the end of the day. Some people make biscuits for a living or mend cars. Others scrape fiddles in orchestras or replace guttering. Simpson vs Bruckner. I just don't like Bruckner's vertical style of writing. His scores are boring to read. Endless blocks and silences. Predictable. I also found it totally boring to play. Simpson's 9th may be a tribute to Bruckner but it has tremendous forward thrust, logic and momentum. The clarity of the orchestration is preferable to my ears than the thick, dull organ inspired sonics of Anton B. Sorry. Don't like him. Probably never will. Give me Boulez any day. Anyway, I better mention Brian quickly before I get banished. Havergal Brian. There we go, I've mentioned him. :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 02:35:40 PM
Brian had a brief period, prior to 1914, in which his early orchestral works were played and during which he benefited from patronage and enjoyed the esteem of figures like Elgar and Bantock.

After the First World War Brian entered into an extremely long period of neglect during which he embarked on his huge series of symphonies, wrote operas and so on with no or very little apparent prospect of these works ever being performed. It was only towards the very end of his life that interest in his music was revived, mainly at first through the advocacy of Robert Simpson at the BBC. Brian's philosophical acceptance of this neglect was a reflection both of the man himself and of the decades of neglect he suffered.

There are other composers who enjoyed a period of quite widespread acclaim and, in some cases, were held up as the shining white hopes for British music. Their music was widely performed, played on BBC Radio, written about in both academic textbooks and admired by the critics. In Hugh Wood's chapter on British music in the Penguin Guide to European Music in the Twentieth Century, Revised Edition(1961) the composers written about most extensively and clearly regarded by Wood as the towering figures of their generation are Peter Racine Fricker, Iain Hamilton and Humphrey Searle.

These three composers have almost completely disappeared from public consciousness. Their music is never played, very, very seldom recorded and indeed their names are probably not even known to the younger generation of BBC music producers. It took a German record company, CPO based in Osnabruck, to record all the symphonies of Benjamin Frankel(from a slightly early generation) and Humphrey Searle but there are none of Hamilton symphonies on cd and only one of Fricker's five(in an old recording).

Now these are not "easy composers". Their music is usually dissonant, intellectually taxing, often stretching tonality to its very outer limits or, in the case of both Frankel and Searle, serial in technique. During the 1970s Fricker's music was frequently performed and broadcast on BBC Radio. Searle, while admired and performed, was seldom broadcast. Fricker and Hamilton went off to the USA to take up professorships at American universities. When they returned to Britain they found that their music had become forgotten. Hamilton tried returning to a less abrasive, more 'popular' idiom but it did him little good. All three-to varying degrees-became bitter and resentful at the neglect into which their music had fallen. They had now disappeared into an abyss, from which their music has still not emerged, between the more acceptable 'romanticism' of 'easier' composers and the new avant-garde of younger composers who regarded all three as conservative has-beens.

Arnold, on the other hand, changed direction from the upbeat music of his youth and early middle-age to angry, despairing music which reflected the torments and agonies of his personal life, which was falling to pieces as a consequence of alcohol and resulting mental problems. His music was still played, but less often, and his behaviour made it difficult for orchestral managements, conductors and orchestras to tolerate. In old age his life was rescued, his health partly restored and a renaissance of interest in his music led to a positive plethora of recordings for cd.

There are composers who have the inner strength, the determination, the sheer bloody-mindedness of the creative muse to continue composing whether their music is played or not. There are others who, having once been lauded to the skies, find neglect a bitter pill to swallow.

There............ ;D

That was a 'stream of consciousness' little essay on neglect and some fine British composers ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2012, 02:37:38 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 02:31:12 PMGive me Boulez any day.

Give me Koechlin, Debussy, Ravel, Dutilleux, Schmitt, or Pierne over Boulez's nonsense, mathematical exercises any day. It's cool you don't like Bruckner though. He gives many listeners problems. I was one of them at one point, but I can't help but feel a kinship with his music now. It's powerful, gripping stuff.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 02:39:46 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 02:35:40 PM
Brian had a brief period, prior to 1914, in which his early orchestral works were played and during which he benefited from patronage and enjoyed the esteem of figures like Elgar and Bantock.

After the First World War Brian entered into an extremely long period of neglect during which he embarked on his huge series of symphonies, wrote operas and so on with no or very little apparent prospect of these works ever being performed. It was only towards the very end of his life that interest in his music was revived, mainly at first through the advocacy of Robert Simpson at the BBC. Brian's philosophical acceptance of this neglect was a reflection both of the man himself and of the decades of neglect he suffered.

There are other composers who enjoyed a period of quite widespread acclaim and, in some cases, were held up as the shining white hopes for British music. Their music was widely performed, played on BBC Radio, written about in both academic textbooks and admired by the critics. In Hugh Wood's chapter on British music in the Penguin Guide to European Music in the Twentieth Century, Revised Edition(1961) the composers written about most extensively and clearly regarded by Wood as the towering figures of their generation are Peter Racine Fricker, Iain Hamilton and Humphrey Searle.

These three composers have almost completely disappeared from public consciousness. Their music is never played, very, very seldom recorded and indeed their names are probably not even known to the younger generation of BBC music producers. It took a German record company, CPO based in Osnabruck, to record all the symphonies of Benjamin Frankel(from a slightly early generation) and Humphrey Searle but there none of Hamilton symphonies are on on cd and only one of Fricker's five(in an old recording).

Now these are not "easy composers". Their music is usually dissonant, intellectually taxing, often stretching tonality to its very outer limits or, in the case of both Frankel and Searle, serial in technique. During the 1970s Fricker's music was frequently performed and broadcast on BBC Radio. Searle, while admired and performed, was seldom broadcast. Fricker and Hamilton went off to the USA to take up professorships at American universities. When they returned to Britain they found that their music had become forgotten. Hamilton tried returning to a less abrasive, more 'popular' idiom but it did him little good. All three-to varying degrees-became bitter and resentful at the neglect into which their music had fallen. They had now disappeared into an abyss, from which their music has still not emerged, between the more acceptable 'romanticism' of 'easier' composers and the new avant-garde of younger composers who regarded all three as conservative has-beens.

Arnold, on the other hand, changed direction from the upbeat music of his youth and early middle-age to angry, despairing music which reflected the torments and agonies of his personal life, which was falling to pieces as a consequence of alcohol and resulting mental problems. His music was still played, but less often, and his behaviour made it difficult for orchestral managements, conductors and orchestras to tolerate. In old age his life was rescued, his health partly restored and a renaissance of interest in his music led to a positive plethora of recordings for cd.

There are composers who have the inner strength, the determination, the sheer bloody-mindedness of the creative muse to continue composing whether their music is played or not. There are others who, having once been lauded to the skies, find neglect a bitter pill to swallow.

There............ ;D

That was a 'stream of consciousness' little essay on neglect and some fine British composers ;D ;D ;D

Well, that's all fine, Colin but...what about them Knicks?

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 02:40:06 PM
You're going to have to revive that Koechlin thread MI!

Yeah,what about them,erm,Knicks,Dundonnell?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on January 07, 2012, 02:42:16 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 02:23:54 PM
I hope they do. Unfortunately,as far as I can make out,Chandos don't seem to like Brian (Havergal!) that much,as far as I can make out.

My footnote is based on a whisper several dozen score pages ago that Chandos was in the running for the Proms performance. I don't actually name Chandos in my review - it's a "you know who you are" type nudge!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 02:42:56 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 02:39:46 PM
Well, that's all fine, Colin but...what about them Knicks?

Sarge
What's your garden like?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 02:43:22 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 02:35:40 PM
That was a 'stream of consciousness' little essay on neglect and some fine British composers ;D ;D ;D


You must write them more often...


Recognition, fame, acceptance - a tricky subject. Brian may have been bloody-minded enough to persevere, but why does his music still inspire enough enthusiasm in some of the living that he is being performed and recorded (though hardly on the scale one would wish), and Fricker, Hamilton and Searle aren't? Is his music so much better? Or has he been very lucky in some of his eloquent advocates?


Not questions that can be answered quickly and easily during a Saturday night...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 02:44:42 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 02:31:12 PMSimpson's 9th may be a tribute to Bruckner but it has tremendous forward thrust, logic and momentum.

Which is what I hear in Bruckner...but of course, at half the usual speed of anyone else  ;D  One needs, above all, patience to appreciate Bruckner.

I empathize with you as a musican though. I doubt Bruckner is fun to play...and probably hellish for the brass.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2012, 02:46:16 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 02:40:06 PMYou're going to have to revive that Koechlin thread MI!

I definitely will, cilgwyn once I've been given some more news in regards to the new Holliger/Hanssler recording that comes out some time this year. Rumor has it that this new disc is going to feature Koechlin orchestrations in addition to his own original compositions. I really hope the series continues because there's so much music that hasn't even been recorded yet.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 02:47:12 PM
I typed this reply to MI,a bit late!

Indeed! Koechlin's like a French equivalent to Brian. Like Brian there is a lot of variety in his music,it is very original (yet approachable) & he is,for all kinds of reasons (his interests,preoccupations) a very interesting person to talk about.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 02:49:21 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 02:42:56 PM
What's your garden like?

A literal jungle...so I appreciate a thread that grows untended and unsupervised. I gave up "grooming" my property about ten years ago. I live in Germany, that hotbed of order and discipline, but, surprisingly, I've had no visits yet from the Ordnungsamt, or complaints from the neighbors. The birds and hedgehogs love my wild garden  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2012, 02:49:59 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 02:44:42 PMI empathize with you as a musican though. I doubt Bruckner is fun to play...and probably hellish for the brass.

I've spoken with a trumpet player in the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra and he said Bruckner was one of his least favorite composers to play. Not because the music is bad, mind you, but because of the endurance that is required in order to perform it. I bet the third movement from the 9th is really tough on them.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 02:54:30 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 02:35:40 PM
Brian had a brief period, prior to 1914, in which his early orchestral works were played and during which he benefited from patronage and enjoyed the esteem of figures like Elgar and Bantock.

After the First World War Brian entered into an extremely long period of neglect during which he embarked on his huge series of symphonies, wrote operas and so on with no or very little apparent prospect of these works ever being performed. It was only towards the very end of his life that interest in his music was revived, mainly at first through the advocacy of Robert Simpson at the BBC. Brian's philosophical acceptance of this neglect was a reflection both of the man himself and of the decades of neglect he suffered.

There are other composers who enjoyed a period of quite widespread acclaim and, in some cases, were held up as the shining white hopes for British music. Their music was widely performed, played on BBC Radio, written about in both academic textbooks and admired by the critics. In Hugh Wood's chapter on British music in the Penguin Guide to European Music in the Twentieth Century, Revised Edition(1961) the composers written about most extensively and clearly regarded by Wood as the towering figures of their generation are Peter Racine Fricker, Iain Hamilton and Humphrey Searle.

These three composers have almost completely disappeared from public consciousness. Their music is never played, very, very seldom recorded and indeed their names are probably not even known to the younger generation of BBC music producers. It took a German record company, CPO based in Osnabruck, to record all the symphonies of Benjamin Frankel(from a slightly early generation) and Humphrey Searle but there are none of Hamilton symphonies on cd and only one of Fricker's five(in an old recording).

Now these are not "easy composers". Their music is usually dissonant, intellectually taxing, often stretching tonality to its very outer limits or, in the case of both Frankel and Searle, serial in technique. During the 1970s Fricker's music was frequently performed and broadcast on BBC Radio. Searle, while admired and performed, was seldom broadcast. Fricker and Hamilton went off to the USA to take up professorships at American universities. When they returned to Britain they found that their music had become forgotten. Hamilton tried returning to a less abrasive, more 'popular' idiom but it did him little good. All three-to varying degrees-became bitter and resentful at the neglect into which their music had fallen. They had now disappeared into an abyss, from which their music has still not emerged, between the more acceptable 'romanticism' of 'easier' composers and the new avant-garde of younger composers who regarded all three as conservative has-beens.

Arnold, on the other hand, changed direction from the upbeat music of his youth and early middle-age to angry, despairing music which reflected the torments and agonies of his personal life, which was falling to pieces as a consequence of alcohol and resulting mental problems. His music was still played, but less often, and his behaviour made it difficult for orchestral managements, conductors and orchestras to tolerate. In old age his life was rescued, his health partly restored and a renaissance of interest in his music led to a positive plethora of recordings for cd.

There are composers who have the inner strength, the determination, the sheer bloody-mindedness of the creative muse to continue composing whether their music is played or not. There are others who, having once been lauded to the skies, find neglect a bitter pill to swallow.

There............ ;D

That was a 'stream of consciousness' little essay on neglect and some fine British composers ;D ;D ;D
I would certainly recommend the Frankel symphonies. Clarity personified. Beware the CPO boxy recording quality and poor orchestral playing but I doubt whether we will hear these again on other labels so snap them up. Malcolm Arnold - the snobs never forgave him for writing immaculately crafted film music. A consumate professional. Andre Previn had the same stuff thrown at him when he got the LSO job. Tarnished by Hollywood and all that. What tosh we have to put up with from so called intellectuals who probably can't read or write or play a single bar of music. Oops, I'm starting to talk about Anton again ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 02:55:46 PM
I typed this reply a little too late!
Indeed! Koechlin's like a French equivalent to Brian. Like Brian there is a lot of variety in his music,it is very original (yet approachable) & he is,for all kinds of reasons (his interests,preoccupations) a very interesting person to discuss!

Andre Previn? I rather like his Violin Concerto. Like Korngold,but with more meat!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 02:57:48 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 02:43:22 PM

You must write them more often...


Recognition, fame, acceptance - a tricky subject. Brian may have been bloody-minded enough to persevere, but why does his music still inspire enough enthusiasm in some of the living that he is being performed and recorded (though hardly on the scale one would wish), and Fricker, Hamilton and Searle aren't? Is his music so much better? Or has he been very lucky in some of his eloquent advocates?


Not questions that can be answered quickly and easily during a Saturday night...

Thank you, Johan :)

You-at least- appreciate a 'stream of consciousness' essay ;D Others want to talk about Knicks and gardens :o I don't know what "Knicks" are(and I am not going to scroll back to find out ;D) and I live in a flat and don't have a garden ;D

As for Bruckner and Simpson.....oh, I am not sure I can be bothered ::) If John doesn't like Bruckner so be it. I don't like Rachmaninov or Delius or York Bowen, I am not too keen on Debussy or later Stravinsky or Schoenberg etc etc. So what 8)

With both Bruckner and Simpson...yes, here I go ;D ;D...I feel that I am starting out on a musical journey, a journey coloured and infused with rich orchestral grandeur, that there will be passages of glorious sounding music with those distinctive, imposing brass chorales which will raise the hackles on my neck and fill me with an almost orgasmic pleasure and delight and a journey which will culminate in my arrival at a destination of spiritual exhaustion and fulfillment.


.....but, Hey, that's just me ;D We all get something different from music :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:02:19 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 07, 2012, 02:49:59 PM
I've spoken with a trumpet player in the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra and he said Bruckner was one of his least favorite composers to play. Not because the music is bad, mind you, but because of the endurance that is required in order to perform it. I bet the third movement from the 9th is really tough on them.

There is the famous Jochum Concertgebouw performance of the Bruckner Fifth. He encored the performance with...a repeat of the last movement! Those poor brass players. They must have been hurting.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:04:38 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 02:57:48 PMI don't know what "Knicks" are

You are so blessed  0:)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2012, 03:04:57 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 02:55:46 PM
I typed this reply a little too late!
Indeed! Koechlin's like a French equivalent to Brian. Like Brian there is a lot of variety in his music,it is very original (yet approachable) & he is,for all kinds of reasons (his interests,preoccupations) a very interesting person to discuss!

I don't want to hijack this thread, but, yes, there's a lot of variety in Koechlin's music, especially if we were to just examine The Jungle Book. What a kaleidoscopic, whirlwind of originality and musical poetry! I continue to keep referring back to this work because I think it's truly one of the greatest achievements of the 20th Century and it's most definitely an unsung classic. Why people aren't more familiar with it? Beats me, but Koechlin has been suffering the same fate as Brian it seems. I don't think either composer will be a household name like a Ravel or Stravinsky, but I think once a person's curiosity is peaked, then two new discoveries will be just around the corner. 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 03:05:15 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 02:57:48 PM
Thank you, Johan :)

You-at least- appreciate a 'stream of consciousness' essay ;D Others want to talk about Knicks and gardens :o I don't know what "Knicks" are(and I am not going to scroll back to find out ;D ) and I live in a flat and don't have a garden ;D

As for Bruckner and Simpson.....oh, I am not sure I can be bothered ::) If John doesn't like Bruckner so be it. I don't like Rachmaninov or Delius or York Bowen, I am not too keen on Debussy or later Stravinsky or Schoenberg etc etc. So what 8)

With both Bruckner and Simpson...yes, here I go ;D ;D ...I feel that I am starting out on a musical journey, a journey coloured and infused with rich orchestral grandeur, that there will be passages of glorious sounding music with those distinctive, imposing brass chorales which will raise the hackles on my neck and fill me with an almost orgasmic pleasure and delight and a journey which will culminate in my arrival at a destination of spiritual exhaustion and fulfillment.


.....but, Hey, that's just me ;D We all get something different from music :)


Interesting. I deduce that it is the sense of epic scale that enthuses you most. Delius, Debussy, Bowen et al are in essence composers of exquisite moments and sensations. Delius can build with the best of them, but his is a fluid architecture, not a monumental one. As you know I like both, they correspond with the extremes of my nature. As you say: We all get something different from music. To which I add: we also look for different things because of our temperament.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:05:40 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 02:57:48 PM
.....but, Hey, that's just me ;D

No, not just you. Bruckner is miraculous.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 03:06:02 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 02:57:48 PM
Thank you, Johan :)

You-at least- appreciate a 'stream of consciousness' essay ;D Others want to talk about Knicks and gardens :o I don't know what "Knicks" are(and I am not going to scroll back to find out ;D) and I live in a flat and don't have a garden ;D

As for Bruckner and Simpson.....oh, I am not sure I can be bothered ::) If John doesn't like Bruckner so be it. I don't like Rachmaninov or Delius or York Bowen, I am not too keen on Debussy or later Stravinsky or Schoenberg etc etc. So what 8)

With both Bruckner and Simpson...yes, here I go ;D ;D...I feel that I am starting out on a musical journey, a journey coloured and infused with rich orchestral grandeur, that there will be passages of glorious sounding music with those distinctive, imposing brass chorales which will raise the hackles on my neck and fill me with an almost orgasmic pleasure and delight and a journey which will culminate in my arrival at a destination of spiritual exhaustion and fulfillment.


.....but, Hey, that's just me ;D We all get something different from music :)
I like Bruckner too!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 03:07:50 PM
We all like Bruckner? John's looking a bit isolated now!
But what's this about "orgasmic pleasure"!!! :o
I don't remember Bruckner doing that to me! :o

I knew I was missing something! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:10:00 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 02:57:48 PM
You-at least- appreciate a 'stream of consciousness' essay ;D Others want to talk about Knicks and gardens :o

If I hadn't consumed an entire bottle of exquisite Riesling tonight, I might be a little more serious  ;D  But, as it is, gardens and the Knicks seem more relevant in my altered state  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2012, 03:10:09 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 02:57:48 PM
Thank you, Johan :)

You-at least- appreciate a 'stream of consciousness' essay ;D Others want to talk about Knicks and gardens :o I don't know what "Knicks" are(and I am not going to scroll back to find out ;D) and I live in a flat and don't have a garden ;D

As for Bruckner and Simpson.....oh, I am not sure I can be bothered ::) If John doesn't like Bruckner so be it. I don't like Rachmaninov or Delius or York Bowen, I am not too keen on Debussy or later Stravinsky or Schoenberg etc etc. So what 8)

With both Bruckner and Simpson...yes, here I go ;D ;D...I feel that I am starting out on a musical journey, a journey coloured and infused with rich orchestral grandeur, that there will be passages of glorious sounding music with those distinctive, imposing brass chorales which will raise the hackles on my neck and fill me with an almost orgasmic pleasure and delight and a journey which will culminate in my arrival at a destination of spiritual exhaustion and fulfillment.


.....but, Hey, that's just me ;D We all get something different from music :)

Absolutely, Colin. It pained me to read that you don't get anything from Debussy, but we're all so different from each others and, plus, there's so much music to go around. There's something for everybody in classical music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2012, 03:11:26 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:02:19 PM
There is the famous Jochum Concertgebouw performance of the Bruckner Fifth. He encored the performance with...a repeat of the last movement! Those poor brass players. They must have been hurting.

Sarge

Those poor musicians.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:13:11 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 03:07:50 PM
But what's this about "orgasmic pleasure"!!! :o
I knew I was missing something! :(

Obviously you are missing one of the most important aspects of Bruckner. Almost alone among composers, he can induce orgasm in the receptive. Brian can too, e.g., the (literal) climax of the Gothic's Vivace, aka, the single greatest chord in classical music history  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 03:15:22 PM
 :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 03:16:12 PM
The category of Kleenex composers is completely new to me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 03:24:24 PM
 :o Not sure what to say to that!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on January 07, 2012, 03:24:30 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:13:11 PM
Obviously you are missing one of the most important aspects of Bruckner. Almost alone among composers, he can induce orgasm in the receptive. Brian can too, e.g., the (literal) climax of the Gothic's Vivace, aka, the single greatest chord in classical music history  8)

Sarge

Actually genuinely sincerely true: my MusicWeb already review includes the line, "Nothing about the Gothic could be called "orgasmic," it's far too austere for that..."

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 03:16:12 PM
The category of Kleenex composers is completely new to me.

Scriabin's La poeme. Also, I saw Janacek's Sinfonietta live with a Panamanian swimsuit model who described it as "orgasmic." She said this outdoors, and very very loudly. So it must be true.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:25:51 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 03:16:12 PM
The category of Kleenex composers is completely new to me.

Oh come on, Johan...don't be coy. We all know you've had some intimate late night experiences with Havergal's music  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 03:26:57 PM
Is Dundonnell still with us?!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 03:27:48 PM
You are absolutely correct, Johan.

Our appreciation of music and our musical preferences DO reflect our own individual temperaments. I can acknowledge and possibly even admire the beauty of a flower but I prefer to gaze at a mountain in awe at its grandeur and epic scale. (You don't have many mountains in the Netherlands do you ??? ;D).

I don't much care if orchestral brass players find Bruckner taxing and difficult to play. When a passage in a Bruckner symphony reaches the point when the brass roar forth in majesty and splendour I am in heaven(I shall ignore cilgwyn's suggestion of pursuing further my excessively personal reference to orgasmic pleasure ;D).

As for comparative neglect. Havergal Brian was a greater composer than Fricker, Hamilton or Searle. His music is deeper, more varied, more inspired, more inspiring. Yes..he has benefited from the enthusiastic, almost fanatical advocacy of a growing band of devotees and this now seems to be paying off to an increasing extent. And he deserves this increasing exposure.

All that I am saying is that the music of the other British composers I mentioned, and, indeed, the music of more conservative composers like William Wordsworth or Daniel Jones, does not deserve the almost total neglect that has befallen it.

I am all in favour of the revival of interest in the more "romantic" British composers in recent years, whether it be Cyril Scott or York Bowen(which doesn't particularly appeal to me) or the music of Stanley Bate and Richard Arnell(which certainly does!).

Mahler was a genius. His music is wonderful. But it needs little advocacy in this day and age. Every month three or four new versions of Mahler's symphonies hit the streets.
Folk collect literally dozens of versions of the same Mahler symphony and can discuss their respective merits till the proverbial cows not only come home but are tucked up in bed with their electric blankets ;D

I am a musical explorer in the sense that I want to know if neglect is justified and the only way that question can be resolved is if the music of a neglected composer is given a decent performance, recorded and WE are allowed to make our own judgments on how good or how mediocre the music actually is.

(The trouble with this b*****y thread is that by the same I have finished writing-and I know that I am prolix in the extreme....9 new replies have been posted :o :o.
Tough. You are getting this anyway ;D ;D ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 03:28:42 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 07, 2012, 03:24:30 PM
1. Actually genuinely sincerely true: my MusicWeb already review includes the line, "Nothing about the Gothic could be called "orgasmic," it's far too austere for that..."

2. Scriabin's La poeme. Also, I saw Janacek's Sinfonietta live with a Panamanian swimsuit model who described it as "orgasmic." She said this outdoors, and very very loudly. So it must be true.


1. True


2. La Poème induces a mental explosion in me, not a physical one...


Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:25:51 PM
Oh come on, Johan...don't be coy. We all know you've had some intimate late night experiences with Havergal's music  ;D

Sarge


I did coin the word 'havergasm' a few days ago, but with me all is mental... True!






Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:29:21 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 07, 2012, 03:24:30 PM
Actually genuinely sincerely true: my MusicWeb already review includes the line, "Nothing about the Gothic could be called "orgasmic," it's far too austere for that..."

Wow...I'm shocked (startled? ...hehe, probably only Johan gets that  ;D )  I've never thought of the Gothic as austere. To me it's the climactic end of Romanticism.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:31:47 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 03:28:42 PM
I did coin the word 'havergasm' a few days ago, but with me all is mental... True!

You poor deprived soul  :D

Seriously, do Colin and I have to explain that our Brucknerian-induced orgasms are mental, not physical?  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 03:33:24 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:13:11 PM
Obviously you are missing one of the most important aspects of Bruckner. Almost alone among composers, he can induce orgasm in the receptive. Brian can too, e.g., the (literal) climax of the Gothic's Vivace, aka, the single greatest chord in classical music history  8)

Sarge

Hear, Hear ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 03:33:41 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:29:21 PM
Wow...I'm shocked (startled? ...hehe, probably only Johan gets that  ;D )  I've never thought of the Gothic as austere. To me it's the climactic end of Romanticism.

Sarge


I think I know what 'our' Brian means - we may surrender to the power of Brian's music, but the music itself doesn't surrender.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 03:34:58 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:31:47 PM
You poor deprived soul  :D

Seriously, do Colin and I have to explain that our Brucknerian-induced orgasms are mental, not physical?  ;D

Sarge

Indeed ;D ;D

Surely that was obvious :o :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 03:35:17 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:31:47 PM
You poor deprived soul  :D

Seriously, do Colin and I have to explain that our Brucknerian-induced orgasms are mental, not physical?  ;D

Sarge


You got me wondering.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 03:37:53 PM
I totally agree with you Dundonnell. It's time music lovers were allowed to make up their own minds. At least things have changed a little now;but there are obviously allot of composers still left out in the cold,especially,the less immeadiately tuneful ones.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:39:50 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 03:35:17 PM

You got me wondering.  ;D

Well, I admit it's a close run thing  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:41:53 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 03:37:53 PM
I totally agree with you Dundonnell. It's time music lovers were allowed to make up their own minds. At least things have changed a little now;but there are obviously allot of composers still left out in the cold,especially,the less immeadiately tuneful ones.

I don't think any of us here disagree with Colin. A recent forum thread asking what neglected composers we'd like to see programmed in concert attests to that.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 03:43:39 PM
.....AND, to clarify a reference I made earlier:

I don't "get nothing" from Debussy ;D I love 'La Mer' and the 'Images' :) :) But some of Debussy's music does tend to make me a trifle soporific-'Prelude a l'apres de midi d'un faune' being an obvious example.

I don't MUCH care for music which washes over me like a warm bath of gentle reflection like Delius, or smothers me in honey or treacle  like Scriabin.

.....but explaining, let alone justifying one's own musical taste is an extraordinary exercise simply because it is such a personal aesthetic reaction. Other people react and respond to music or a painting in a completely different way. Their reaction is every bit as valid as mine.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 03:44:11 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 03:27:48 PM

I am a musical explorer in the sense that I want to know if neglect is justified and the only way that question can be resolved is if the music of a neglected composer is given a decent performance, recorded and WE are allowed to make our own judgments on how good or how mediocre the music actually is.


Agreed.

But with the audience for classical music aging, I hope that there will be enough people left for posthumous justice to be done to deserving composers... Pessimistic, I know.  :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:45:13 PM
Almost 2 a.m. here. I'm signing off. Good (and amusing) discussion this evening. Thanks, guys.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 03:46:29 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2012, 03:45:13 PM
Almost 2 a.m. here. I'm signing off. Good (and amusing) discussion this evening. Thanks, guys.

Sarge


Bye, Sarge. Yes, 'twas a good 'un. I'm signing off, too. I'm in the same time zone!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 03:48:19 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 03:44:11 PM

Agreed.

But with the audience for classical music aging, I hope that there will be enough people left for posthumous justice to be done to deserving composers... Pessimistic, I know.  :(

Yes...and I am aging from a higher level already from you, Johan ;D ;D As I get older I get more and more impatient to hear neglected composers' music before it is too late..... :(

.....and on that grim note..since everyone seems to be off to bed............. ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on January 07, 2012, 03:50:12 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 03:43:39 PMsmothers me in honey or treacle  like Scriabin.

See, I don't understand this point of view - but then my first Scriabin was Sonatas 5 and 9!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 03:50:26 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 03:48:19 PM
Yes...and I am aging from a higher level already from you, Johan ;D ;D As I get older I get more and more impatient to hear neglected composers' music before it is too late..... :(


Oh well, still a long way to go for both us. The average age of a Brianite is 96.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 03:54:32 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 03:50:26 PM

Oh well, still a long way to go for both us. The average age of a Brianite is 96.

Aye....right ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 07, 2012, 04:08:52 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 07, 2012, 03:50:12 PM
See, I don't understand this point of view - but then my first Scriabin was Sonatas 5 and 9!

Nor should you, Brian ;D

I am not sure that it is necessary or even possible for someone else to understand one's response to a particular composer. If one is in the business of writing musical criticism for the public to read then that is a different matter but in such cases the writer has an obligation to bring a degree of objectivity to his analysis of a piece of music. In addition, the music critic will be listening to a composition with an ear to the musical technique used by the composer and to the construction of the piece.

I can acknowledge the absolute genius of a composer like Bach or Mozart without necessarily feeling that the music is touching my soul. The intellect can be engaged, the music can be appreciated, admired, even(I suppose) loved as a superb example of a composer who has an absolute mastery of his material. In terms of what he was trying to do, what he was intending to convey to the listener Scriabin's music may well be splendid, magisterial, call it what you will. But in terms of a listener's reaction to that music then we will all differ in what we are hearing and how we are responding. You will hear things and experience an emotional response which may be alien to mine.
Now, I will happily concede that one can change one's opinion. One can be shown things about a piece, encouraged to listen to it perhaps in a different way and that may be both enlightening and indeed inspiring.

....but so much depends on temperament and on mood. I USED to like Rachmaninov. I once loved the Symphonic Dances. But one can fall out of love with a composer and that has happened to me with Rachmaninov. What once appealed as sweeping, soaring romantic music I now find cloying and unattractive. I can still listen to and enjoy the 1st Symphony and 'The Bells'....but the rest,no, sadly.

.....oh no...TOO MUCH again ::) ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 07, 2012, 04:29:40 PM
My current cd (on headphones!),Walter Piston's Fifth,Seventh & Eighth Symphonies & Serenata is a case in point & might be more Dundonnell's cup of tea  (I'm sure he's heard it!) It's hard to believe that these symphonies are unavailable in more recent recordings. The most recent dates from 1975! Thoughtful,haunting,often sombre.The more energetic moments have a cleansing astringency. Not tuneful,yet approachable & some REALLY beautiful orchestration,including harps!. I find it VERY difficult to understand their neglect.One of the best Piston cd's I've heard.
It's a strange world!
On a more positive note these are very good performances & recordings,at least to my ears!
If it wasn't so late (early) I might just dash off to the Piston thread!

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on January 07, 2012, 04:47:40 PM
I am a wee bit disappointed to see that the new Brian downloads at $5 each are...well...James Loughran did a fine Holst Planets with the Halle, but these appear to be by school orchestras?  School orchestras?  I thought they would be by some better known orchestra, and I am in two minds as whether to buy them or not.  :-(

As for Bruckner orgasmic experiences, I might report that in 1996 I played both Bruckners 5th and 6th every night when my girlfriend was up at my Scarborough flat.  I can safely say that Bruckner quite assisted in matters which are best kept undercover.  For some reason, an obvious one, Bruckner 6 in particular remind me of that lass, that flat, those warm spring nights... :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 08, 2012, 12:24:29 AM
Quote from: John of Clydebank on January 07, 2012, 04:47:40 PM
I am a wee bit disappointed to see that the new Brian downloads at $5 each are...well...James Loughran did a fine Holst Planets with the Halle, but these appear to be by school orchestras?  School orchestras?  I thought they would be by some better known orchestra, and I am in two minds as whether to buy them or not.  :-(

As for Bruckner orgasmic experiences, I might report that in 1996 I played both Bruckners 5th and 6th every night when my girlfriend was up at my Scarborough flat.  I can safely say that Bruckner quite assisted in matters which are best kept undercover.  For some reason, an obvious one, Bruckner 6 in particular remind me of that lass, that flat, those warm spring nights... :o


If you buy any of the two, buy the one with Symphony No. 10. It was the first LP ever made of Brian's music, and the performance still stands, even after Brabbins' on Dutton. I am sure it will thrill you.


As for that lass - brave girl!  :o


The Mahler 6 would have been tragic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 08, 2012, 12:59:33 AM
Quote from: John of Clydebank on January 07, 2012, 04:47:40 PM
I am a wee bit disappointed to see that the new Brian downloads at $5 each are...well...James Loughran did a fine Holst Planets with the Halle, but these appear to be by school orchestras?  School orchestras?  I thought they would be by some better known orchestra, and I am in two minds as whether to buy them or not.  :-(

As for Bruckner orgasmic experiences, I might report that in 1996 I played both Bruckners 5th and 6th every night when my girlfriend was up at my Scarborough flat.  I can safely say that Bruckner quite assisted in matters which are best kept undercover.  For some reason, an obvious one, Bruckner 6 in particular remind me of that lass, that flat, those warm spring nights... :o
Worry not. This is Tippett's LSSO. Similar to the National Youth in the 1970s and 80s and winner of the European Youth Orchestra competition in Salzburg in 1984. Don't expect the Vienna Phil but don't expect the sort of school orchestra that puts your teeth on edge. The coupling of 10/21 was described by one reviewer as the the most important issue of 1973 (Malcolm M). It also came 6th in the 1973 voting for UK classical disc of the year. In terms of sales it came 3rd. Search Youtube for The Unknown Warrior TV programme. It features the project and it will give you a feel for the recordings. Bob Simpson was inspirational at the rehearsals and sessions, helping to correct all the horrendous mistakes and page turns littering the score. If you click the sleeves on the Klassic Haus site there are substantial excerpts on MP3. Give it a go. End of advert.
PS Here's the Youtube link
http://youtu.be/9f7_wiFeDIU
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on January 08, 2012, 01:03:09 AM
All this talk about 'knicks'; have we descended to discussing underwear now? ;)

I think that Johan's point about temperament is very valid, although if so, mine hasn't changed much. Love Bruckner, Simpson, Debussy, Ravel, Brian (of course), Tchaikovsky, Vaughan Williams... Rachmaninov also; the seccond symphony reduces me to a blubbering, gibbering wreck every time I hear it. I've played cymbals ('played' and 'cymbals' is NOT an oxymoron!!) in the Rach two several times, and last heard it live in concert with the LSO under Previn at the Barbican in 2002; what a gig that was - fantastic.

Havergasm - great term! There should be one for Old Anton too, because I'm sure that he represents it in his music. Although devout, he thought a lot about the opposite sex; Stephen Johnson records in his book 'Remembering Bruckner' that Old Anton used to wear swimming shorts to bed when he stayed with friends because of a nocturnal emission issue! And I'm sure that there are aspects of his music that are a conscious reflection of that, one of the most obvious examples to me being his regular use of the combination of acceleration, crescendo and rhythmic diminution before a huge statement. Not fun to play, maybe - I don't think he was fond of key signatures - but great to listen to!

8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 08, 2012, 01:10:20 AM
Having just read through last night's jibber jabber, is everyone still alive? Please sign in. I'm just about clinging on.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 08, 2012, 01:23:59 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on January 08, 2012, 01:03:09 AM
All this talk about 'knicks'; have we descended to discussing underwear now? ;)

I think that Johan's point about temperament is very valid, although if so, mine hasn't changed much. Love Bruckner, Simpson, Debussy, Ravel, Brian (of course), Tchaikovsky, Vaughan Williams... Rachmaninov also; the seccond symphony reduces me to a blubbering, gibbering wreck every time I hear it. I've played cymbals ('played' and 'cymbals' is NOT an oxymoron!!) in the Rach two several times, and last heard it live in concert with the LSO under Previn at the Barbican in 2002; what a gig that was - fantastic.

Havergasm - great term! There should be one for Old Anton too, because I'm sure that he represents it in his music. Although devout, he thought a lot about the opposite sex; Stephen Johnson records in his book 'Remembering Bruckner' that Old Anton used to wear swimming shorts to bed when he stayed with friends because of a nocturnal emission issue! And I'm sure that there are aspects of his music that are a conscious reflection of that, one of the most obvious examples to me being his regular use of the combination of acceleration, crescendo and rhythmic diminution before a huge statement. Not fun to play, maybe - I don't think he was fond of key signatures - but great to listen to! 8)
This has encouraged me to get some Bruckner CDs off the shelf. Many thanks ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 08, 2012, 01:26:02 AM
Still alive, John. There was much merriment and lively debate in the Happy Havergal.

@HBSwebmaster A pity Stephen Johnson's book is OOP, I 'd love to read it. In German we have the big biography of Göllerich and Auer, but that dates from the early 20th century and seems to be rather hagiographical (I have never read it). I can see the connection between Bruckner's many unrequited loves (for young girls) and some aspects of his musical style...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2012, 02:38:36 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 08, 2012, 01:10:20 AM
Having just read through last night's jibber jabber, is everyone still alive?

Just barely. Damn good Riesling but I'm having trouble focusing this morning  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: The new erato on January 08, 2012, 02:50:36 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2012, 02:38:36 AM
Just barely. Damn good Riesling but I'm having trouble focusing this morning  ;D

Sarge
Just as well you stay away from the single malt, then.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2012, 02:58:07 AM
Quote from: The new erato on January 08, 2012, 02:50:36 AM
Just as well you stay away from the single malt, then.

Indeed  ;D  There are four bottles on a shelf near my desk (Laphroaig, Talisker, Glenmorangie, Ardbeg) but I wasn't tempted last night.

Oops...starting to jabber. Back to topic: Hey, how about them Brians?

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 08, 2012, 04:51:24 AM
Hmmmm ??? ???

Barely alive and thoroughly disgruntled >:(

Following the indeed most enjoyable discussion on here last night/early this morning I drove to an all-night garage for supplies and there my car decided not to move anywhere further. Having left my mobile phone at home, I had to walk back to my flat, phone emergency breakdown, wait for them to turn up and have my car brought back on the pickup truck.

It appears my clutch needs replacement >:( :(

So I wasn't finished with life in all its vicissitudes until 4.30am :(.......and I will now have to shell out more money on the wretched thing :( :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 08, 2012, 04:58:53 AM
That's a sorry adventure to befall you, Colin...  :(

'Setting out on a great journey' is clearly something best left to symphonies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 08, 2012, 12:03:56 PM
Yesterday I downloaded the restorations of two pioneering Brian recordings. Every (older) Brianite knows them. One LP, with symphonies 10 & 21, was released by Unicorn in 1973, and the other, with Psalm 23, Symphony No. 22 and English Suite No. 5, 'Rustic Scenes', by CBS in 1974.


Now, after listening to them and comparing them (in the first case to the CD Unicorn-Kanchana later brought out, in the latter to an amateur digitisation), I am very very enthusiastic. The sound is really excellent. The official CD of 10 & 21 really didn't do the LSSO justice - the sound is too light and tinny, there isn't the weight I remembered from the LP. And that LP really had an enormous impact on my younger self. In the early '80s I was obsessed by Symphony No. 10, and that wasn't only because it is one of Brian's best and most gripping symphonies, but also, simply, because that band of very young people played this music amazingly well. As for the CBS LP, that never sounded very appealing in the first place. It was all rather harsh and shrill, with not enough warmth. Well, I don't know how restorer Curt Timmons did it, but his restoration is a great improvement on the original! The orchestra has enormous presence, there is the 'pressure of the basses', which Brian liked, and is a bit lacking in the technically better performance of English Suite No. 5 on the first Toccata volume of Brian's Orchestral Works. The same goes for the LSSO performance of No. 10 - Brabbins has given us a great reading on his Brian CD for Dutton, where many new details stand out. But - there are a few passages where I think the youngsters and James Loughran still have not been bettered.


So, to cut a long story short - I recommend these restorations unreservedly. At $5 a download, it won't burn a hole in your wallet... And the CD isn't too expensive either.


And no, I don't have shares in Klassic Haus!




http://klassichaus.us/Havergal-Brian.php (http://klassichaus.us/Havergal-Brian.php)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 08, 2012, 12:36:12 PM
I don't have shares in Klassic Haus either but plead guilty to sending them my LP transfers just to see if there was any interest. The 10/21 coupling sounds like the LP played on a good deck but without the clicks and pops - I don't hear any tinkering of the actual sound, just an overall cleaning up excercise. I agree with Johan about the thin nasty sounding Unicorn CD release. I always disliked the tinny CBS LP with it's squealing strings and dustbin lid percussion. I didn't hold out much hope for this sonic disaster but this now sounds much more like the Unicorn in warmth and depth. I don't find the playing on the CBS quite as convincing as on the 10/21 coupling , even though some critics thought otherwise, but it's still generally good and at least it's now a pleasant experience. The biggest surprise is Symphony 22 which is now deep and warm and the removal of background sludge has brought up some of the inner details that weren't there before. I wasn't charged for this. I'm delighted with the outcome and hope that Curt Timmons at least gets some success from his efforts. I'm now working on phase two - Tippett and Mathias.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 08, 2012, 06:36:27 PM
How does Heltay's performance of No.22 compare with Fredman's premiere performance?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 08, 2012, 10:40:24 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 08, 2012, 06:36:27 PM
How does Heltay's performance of No.22 compare with Fredman's premiere performance?
Fredman's orchestral playing is superior of course, performance wise he tends to pull the music about a wee bit more and is more relaxed in places. Heltay is more direct and maybe has a bit more thrust. Not chalk and cheese but slighty different. Sound quality wise the CBS transfer is far superior to Fredman which is a shock when you consider how poor the LP pressings were. Psalm 23 is worth getting - more exciting than the Bostock despite, again, Bostock having professional forces - his version is small scale and has the feel of a routine run through about it. Hope this helps. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 09, 2012, 12:37:02 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 08, 2012, 06:36:27 PM
How does Heltay's performance of No.22 compare with Fredman's premiere performance?


Not much to add to John. Heltay's No. 22 has all the grimness you can wish for, Fredman's has more tenderness. I think the performances are equal in insight into the piece.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 09, 2012, 01:02:18 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 09, 2012, 12:37:02 AM

Not much to add to John. Heltay's No. 22 has all the grimness you can wish for, Fredman's has more tenderness. I think the performances are equal in insight into the piece.
Love it. Grimness. Does this summarise HBs general style? Eric Pinkett called his style anti-Romantic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 09, 2012, 02:39:36 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 09, 2012, 01:02:18 AM
Love it. Grimness. Does this summarise HBs general style? Eric Pinkett called his style anti-Romantic.


Thanks for the additional sentence...  ;) Brian's music is tough, uncompromising, adventurous, dramatic. And there are many lyrical passages which are as romantic as they come. The way Brian's music is put together, though, prevents any wallowing - there simply isn't the time, he is always moving on.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 09, 2012, 03:48:02 AM
Thanks :)

With unexpected new expense forecast to repair my car I think it will have to be downloads of both the Loughran/Pinkett and the Heltay. I have both, of course, on LP but what I gather you are both saying is that the sound quality has been much improved for these cd transfers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 09, 2012, 05:53:58 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 09, 2012, 03:48:02 AM
Thanks :)

With unexpected new expense forecast to repair my car I think it will have to be downloads of both the Loughran/Pinkett and the Heltay. I have both, of course, on LP but what I gather you are both saying is that the sound quality has been much improved for these cd transfers.
I guarantee the sound is much better. I've made 2 CDs from the MP3 downloads - I don't like headphones or computer listening. My HiFi is decent and they sound really good. The Unicorn always did (vinyl version that is), the real surprise is the CBS.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on January 09, 2012, 06:01:49 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 09, 2012, 05:53:58 AM
I don't like headphones or computer listening.

I agree very much John.  Listening needs open ears and space for the music to project its form.  Headphones are ok for when one is outside or something, but nothing can beat a solid state sound system and a well recorded symphony - and an analogue volume control.   :D

Remember Brian is on @ 00.31 later!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 09, 2012, 08:14:15 AM
Quote from: John of Clydebank on January 09, 2012, 06:01:49 AM
I agree very much John.  Listening needs open ears and space for the music to project its form.  Headphones are ok for when one is outside or something, but nothing can beat a solid state sound system and a well recorded symphony - and an analogue volume control.   :D

Remember Brian is on @ 00.31 later!
I will give the 00.31 a miss if you don't mind. I will, however, buy the Hyperion Gothic next week now that it's quite clearly superior to the (compressed) broadcast having listened to people on here and seen the general reviews. Can't beat a decent analogue recording set at a decent level through my Linns. I still miss my Tannoy Autographs but getting married put and end to those monsters. Brian 10 through Linns is still acceptable though ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on January 09, 2012, 09:35:47 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 09, 2012, 08:14:15 AM
I will give the 00.31 a miss if you don't mind. I will, however, buy the Hyperion Gothic next week now that it's quite clearly superior to the (compressed) broadcast having listened to people on here and seen the general reviews. Can't beat a decent analogue recording set at a decent level through my Linns. I still miss my Tannoy Autographs but getting married put and end to those monsters. Brian 10 through Linns is still acceptable though ;D

Yes.  I will negate any recording antics later and buy the Hyperion too.  I have been a bit excited and didn't realise the full blown recording was on issue with Hyperion.  I should read the complete posts before jumping in too excitedly.  I will taste it tonight, and then buy the real deal for a proper listening experience.  Thanks John.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2012, 10:29:04 AM
It's pretty cool there's three John's on this forum. We should form a rock trio and call it "J Cubed," but cubed will actually be the to the third power symbol.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 09, 2012, 10:46:45 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 09, 2012, 10:29:04 AM
It's pretty cool there's three John's on this forum. We should form a rock trio and call it "J Cubed," but cubed will actually be the to the third power symbol.


J3 ;D


It gets even better/worse - I am a Joh(a)n, too.



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 09, 2012, 12:16:23 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 09, 2012, 10:29:04 AM
It's pretty cool there's three John's on this forum. We should form a rock trio and call it "J Cubed," but cubed will actually be the to the third power symbol.
Amazing. It's not a common name is it either, unlike Havergal?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on January 09, 2012, 01:29:23 PM
If anyone gets out of line on this forum, one of the "Johns" will have to step in and sort them out.   >:(
Don't mess with the Johns.   >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 09, 2012, 02:03:56 PM
Quote from: John of Clydebank on January 09, 2012, 01:29:23 PM
If anyone gets out of line on this forum, one of the "Johns" will have to step in and sort them out.   >:(
Don't mess with the Johns.   >:(
Absolutely. No Gothic for me. Early start in the morning. By the way, Clydebank, have you bought those crappy schools orchestra thingies? I haven't really forgiven you yet for being so rude about my old orchestra ;D 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2012, 02:48:02 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 09, 2012, 10:46:45 AM

J3 ;D


It gets even better/worse - I am a Joh(a)n, too.

Oh, yeah...I forgot you're a "John" too! Well now we're a quartet...8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2012, 02:49:31 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 09, 2012, 12:16:23 PM
Amazing. It's not a common name is it either, unlike Havergal?

No a common name is something like Schnittke and Delius. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2012, 02:50:01 PM
Quote from: John of Clydebank on January 09, 2012, 01:29:23 PM
If anyone gets out of line on this forum, one of the "Johns" will have to step in and sort them out.   >:(
Don't mess with the Johns.   >:(

That's right! We'll mess somebody up quick! 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on January 09, 2012, 03:03:57 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 09, 2012, 02:50:01 PM
That's right! We'll mess somebody up quick! 8)

I hear MN Dave, DaveF, David W, DavidRoss, david johnson, and Daverz are challenging you guys to a rumble.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 09, 2012, 03:06:20 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 09, 2012, 03:03:57 PM
I hear MN Dave, DaveF, David W, DavidRoss, david johnson, and Daverz are challenging you guys to a rumble.

Four against six? Bring it on! I love a good ol' Dave bashin' in the morning.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on January 09, 2012, 03:28:46 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 09, 2012, 02:03:56 PM
Absolutely. No Gothic for me. Early start in the morning. By the way, Clydebank, have you bought those crappy schools orchestra thingies? I haven't really forgiven you yet for being so rude about my old orchestra ;D

:'( :'( :'(
Right.  This spat between Johns must be dealt with.   :(
I did not refer to them as 'crappy'.  I know I have a kind of 'tabloid' presentation at the best of times, but the words 'crappy' and 'thingie' are not within the range of my usual lexicon.
I did between the lines suggest them as something which, because of their school origin, may not be of the same performance quality we expect from mainstream Orchestras.  By doing so I have highlighted my ignorance in making an assumption before even listening to the works.  For this I sincerely apologise.  I did not mean it to be rude at all.  I accept it was a pre-judgement without evidence, and probably a poor one at that.  I have not yet purchased the albums, but I WILL do so when I do a planned Classical splurge over the next few days.
I offer you a genuine apology for offending you John, and look forward to hearing the acoustic changes between the originals (which you kindly mailed me links to) and the much improved ones.  When I do my Classical splurge and listen to the Brian works, I will report back with no poorly formed assumptions.
And, please, do not call me Clydebank.   :(
May we shake hands on the matter, or would you rather wait until I post my responses to the improved versions?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on January 09, 2012, 03:32:42 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 09, 2012, 03:03:57 PM
I hear MN Dave, DaveF, David W, DavidRoss, david johnson, and Daverz are challenging you guys to a rumble.

Some of us Johns have something to sort out between us.  The Davids will have to wait, because as you know, we Johns are gracious under God, and being so, we must come to an agreement as to who gets hammered first.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 09, 2012, 05:29:50 PM
Ha ;D

I sit in splendid isolation 8) 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on January 09, 2012, 05:30:32 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 09, 2012, 05:29:50 PM
Ha ;D

I sit in splendid isolation 8) 8)

I don't. They named a composer after me. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 09, 2012, 07:29:16 PM
Ha! You wish...

I did see a movie, called 'Brianheart', though... Quite good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 09, 2012, 10:47:10 PM
Quote from: John of Clydebank on January 09, 2012, 03:28:46 PM
:'( :'( :'(
Right.  This spat between Johns must be dealt with.   :(
I did not refer to them as 'crappy'.  I know I have a kind of 'tabloid' presentation at the best of times, but the words 'crappy' and 'thingie' are not within the range of my usual lexicon.
I did between the lines suggest them as something which, because of their school origin, may not be of the same performance quality we expect from mainstream Orchestras.  By doing so I have highlighted my ignorance in making an assumption before even listening to the works.  For this I sincerely apologise.  I did not mean it to be rude at all.  I accept it was a pre-judgement without evidence, and probably a poor one at that.  I have not yet purchased the albums, but I WILL do so when I do a planned Classical splurge over the next few days.
I offer you a genuine apology for offending you John, and look forward to hearing the acoustic changes between the originals (which you kindly mailed me links to) and the much improved ones.  When I do my Classical splurge and listen to the Brian works, I will report back with no poorly formed assumptions.
And, please, do not call me Clydebank.   :(
May we shake hands on the matter, or would you rather wait until I post my responses to the improved versions?
Let me think about it. Yes. Alright. :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 10, 2012, 04:42:34 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 09, 2012, 05:30:32 PM
I don't. They named a composer after me. :)
Who was that, then?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on January 10, 2012, 05:04:51 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 09, 2012, 10:47:10 PM
Let me think about it. Yes. Alright. :D

Thank you John.  I will be cautious as to be so trashy without audio evidence again.  You have taught me a fine lesson.   :-[
I will purchase the Havergal Brian works over the weekend, among other things.  'Twill be interesting and fun for me to compare them, even unto wave forms and audio analysis.

Now.   :D
Don't we Johns need to sort out those damn Daves who are challenging us to a 'rumble'?   >:(  I will devise a flag for the Johns before battle commences if ever they decide to start a carry on.   ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 10, 2012, 05:42:05 AM
Quote from: John of Clydebank on January 10, 2012, 05:04:51 AM
Thank you John.  I will be cautious as to be so trashy without audio evidence again.  You have taught me a fine lesson.   :-[
I will purchase the Havergal Brian works over the weekend, among other things.  'Twill be interesting and fun for me to compare them, even unto wave forms and audio analysis.

Now.   :D
Don't we Johns need to sort out those damn Daves who are challenging us to a 'rumble'?   >:(  I will devise a flag for the Johns before battle commences if ever they decide to start a carry on.   ;D
Best to ignore. Least said soonest mended.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 11, 2012, 02:40:03 AM
The February issue of The Gramophone magazine has a review of the Hyperion cd. The review is written by Guy Rickards and is enthusiastic. He makes the obvious point that the BBC should have filmed the performance.

However Rickards gets one column to review both the Hyperion discs and Volume 2 of the Toccata Brian releases. The consequence is that the Toccata disc gets precisely three sentences.

Rickards is a sensible reviewer and is notably well-informed about Scandinavian music but the length of his review gives him little opportunity to say much that is of any real value beyond comparing the speeds adopted by Boult, Lenard and Brabbins. Frankly, almost any of us could have written this review.

It is a waste of the man's talent and, yet another, commentary on the dreadful decline in the magazine's standards; a decline we have said much about already :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 11, 2012, 03:26:33 AM
Thanks for that, Colin. I share your sadness at the decline of what was once an excellent magazine. Still, Guy Rickards' enthusiasm could sway some doubters, which is a positive thing.

On another subject, I 'met' a new Brianite on Twitter, Clive Pagett, from Sydney, Australia. He's a freelance director, among other things, and has been amazed by how advanced musically and theatrically The Tigers is.

So - the Band of Brianites is growing apace!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 11, 2012, 05:33:54 AM
Marvellous.Up there with the best pre Britten opera's ie Hugh the Drover,Sir John in Love,A Village Romeo & Juliet & I SHOULD add Savitri & Riders to the Sea,but they're a little too grim for me!
Interesting how many posts HB gets. Yet after buying some s/h cd copies of Britten's own recordings of his opera's,I actually had trouble FINDING a Britten thread here! I seem to remember it was quite short! :o

NB: It would have been nice to have included VW's wonderful Pilgrims Progress in the above list,but I'm not really sure where it fit's! I also rather like,The Immortal Hour & The Perfect Fool opera,but they're probably not 'dramatic' enough (particularly the latter).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 11, 2012, 05:45:41 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 11, 2012, 05:33:54 AM
Marvellous.Up there with the best pre Britten opera's ie Hugh the Drover,Sir John in Love,A Village Romeo & Juliet & I SHOULD add Savitri & Riders to the Sea,but they're a little too grim for me!
Interesting how many posts HB gets. Yet after buying some s/h cd copies of Britten's own recordings of his opera's,I actually had trouble FINDING a Britten thread here! I seem to remember it was quite short! :o

NB: It would have been nice to have included VW's wonderful Pilgrims Progress in the above list,but I'm not really sure where it fit's! I also rather like,The Immortal Hour & The Perfect Fool opera,but they're probably not 'dramatic' enough (particularly the latter).


I think this thread has mutated into the central HB forum on the internet. Also - GMG has reached critical mass, as it were, last year - there now is a hard core of (not very quiet) Brianites. It will irritate some people here, all this attention for a composer who is still regarded as a curiosity, but fortunately, they can avoid this place. I am glad it's there!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on January 11, 2012, 05:52:16 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 11, 2012, 05:45:41 AM
(not very quiet) Brianites

(* chortle *)

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 11, 2012, 03:26:33 AM
So - the Band of Brianites is growing apace!

Aye, as opposed to the Petterssonnians (we few, we pathologically morose few . . . . ; )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 11, 2012, 05:55:59 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 11, 2012, 05:52:16 AM
(* chortle *)

Aye, as opposed to the Petterssonnians (we few, we pathologically morose few . . . . ; )


I think the character of the composer determines the character of his fans. Brian's middle name was 'perseverance', Pettersson's... take your pick.  ;) (Sorry, Lethe!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on January 11, 2012, 05:59:08 AM
Well, I must say that you & Sara are much more cheerful than your enthusiasm for the dour Swede might suggest : )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 11, 2012, 06:02:34 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on January 11, 2012, 05:59:08 AM
Well, I must say that you & Sara are much more cheerful than your enthusiasm for the dour Swede might suggest : )

Those pills mean a lot to us.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on January 11, 2012, 06:04:49 AM
Big Pharma thanks you.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 11, 2012, 07:58:46 AM
Benjamin Britten,our 'greatest opera composer' ;D has a meagre,eight page  long thread!!! ;D
I DO actually like some of Britten's opera's,personally,but interestingly,perhaps (?) the only recordings I like (and,indeed,own) are the composers own Decca recordings (and the emi vintage recordings from 78's under Goodall). Despite my reservations about SOME of his opera's,particularly the later ones, I DO think he WAS very good at picking just the right singers for his recordings,and some of the soloists in his recording really ARE the kind of singers you just don't get now ie,the cream of yesterdays crop. The sort of singers who I could enjoy listening to,even if they were singing the telephone book! ;D I also confess to actually quite liking Peter Pears's wierd gargly singing voice. But ONLY if he's singing Britten or folk songs (with old whatsisname on the piano!). If it's any other composer's,he's c***!

One last thought. If the War Requiem gets put on at the Proms will every ticket get sold in 24 hours?
Or what about a Prom with the War Requiem AND the Gothic on the same night & see which gets the loudest & most sustained applause? (Like King Kong fighting the dinosaur!)
Not saying which one's the dinosaur! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 11, 2012, 09:54:22 AM
I really have come to love several of Britten's orchestral pieces, the Sinfonia da Requiem, Piano Concerto, Violin Concerto. His vocal works have always been distasteful to me because of Peter Pears, whose voice I dislike (Schwarzkopf same thing - both voices are products of the will, the will being greater than the talent). But I heard the 'Illuminations' once, sung by another tenor, and found them amazing. The interludes from 'Peter Grimes' are excellent, too. One day I'll be able to like the operatic Britten, perhaps... As for his chamber works, I still have to hear any of his string quartets.

War Requiem vs Gothic - yes, makes sense. As does Walton's 'Belshazzar's Feast' vs 'Das Siegeslied'!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 11, 2012, 09:55:33 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 11, 2012, 03:26:33 AM
Thanks for that, Colin. I share your sadness at the decline of what was once an excellent magazine. Still, Guy Rickards' enthusiasm could sway some doubters, which is a positive thing.

On another subject, I 'met' a new Brianite on Twitter, Clive Pagett, from Sydney, Australia. He's a freelance director, among other things, and has been amazed by how advanced musically and theatrically The Tigers is.

So - the Band of Brianites is growing apace!
Is there a possibility of an Australian stage premiere for The Tigers,at some time in the future? Does Clive Pagett have any influence in that area,I wonder?
It would be a great follow up to the Brisbane Gothic. Mind you,that took a while to happen.

I'm with you on Schwarzkopf. Can't stand the battleaxe. So matronly. Her celebrated operetta composers are a case in point. So cold.Where's the lightness and humour?
Peter Pears (as a singer) I do actually like,but ONLY in Britten or the folksongs.
Das Siegeslied v Belshazzars Feast. What a battle! Godzilla springs to mind,this time around (sorry Kong!).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 11, 2012, 10:03:26 AM
Well, Clive is now listening to 'The Tigers' for the first time. He put the files on his iPod last week. Who knows? He is a Brianite, but there are still a lot of pieces he doesn't know. Let's see how he views the work as a whole.

A 'Tigers' premiere down under... The mind boggles!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 11, 2012, 10:19:09 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 11, 2012, 09:54:22 AM
I really have come to love several of Britten's orchestral pieces, the Sinfonia da Requiem, Piano Concerto, Violin Concerto. His vocal works have always been distasteful to me because of Peter Pears, whose voice I dislike (Schwarzkopf same thing - both voices are products of the will, the will being greater than the talent). But I heard the 'Illuminations' once, sung by another tenor, and found them amazing. The interludes from 'Peter Grimes' are excellent, too. One day I'll be able to like the operatic Britten, perhaps... As for his chamber works, I still have to hear any of his string quartets.

War Requiem vs Gothic - yes, makes sense. As does Walton's 'Belshazzar's Feast' vs 'Das Siegeslied'!
Score Flash: War Requiem 0 Gothic 1 (Pears o.g.)
Walton 7 Siegeslied 0 (Full Time)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 11, 2012, 10:39:43 AM
And now back to the football! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 11, 2012, 10:42:11 AM
Foul!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 11, 2012, 10:44:11 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 11, 2012, 10:42:11 AM
Foul!
The Siegeslied certainly is :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 11, 2012, 10:47:51 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 11, 2012, 10:44:11 AM
The Siegeslied certainly is

* shows red card *
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 11, 2012, 12:25:56 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 12, 2012, 03:30:04 AM
Das Siegeslied followed by some nice,soothing Jon Leifs!
(Incidentally,Leifs Saga Symphony would be great fun at the Proms. I've got the BIS Saga cd,somewhere.Must dig it out! Another great original! Although,John MAY disagree?!!!
Still waiting for the MM book. The cheque got sent off on Tuesday afternoon. MM is VERY persuasive. After reading his description of Das Siegeslied I may end up with the Poole on repeat. Although,I think I'll probably jump to No 3,for starters,persuasion or not! I LOVE that symphony!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 12, 2012, 03:52:47 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 12, 2012, 03:30:04 AM
Still waiting for the MM book. The cheque got sent off on Tuesday afternoon. MM is VERY persuasive.


He is. Anyone with an open mind must get hooked on Brian by just reading his descriptions (as I was). And the great thing is - he 'oversells' the qualities of the symphonies in only a few cases. But remember - he wrote vol. 1 when he was in his early twenties. In most cases I still can't fault his evaluations. Where I differ - I don't think the first movement of No. 2 is all that good, the main theme is too amorphous; I don't consider 'Das Siegeslied' Brian's greatest symphony (don't ask if one of the 32 actually is!); the 'storm' passage in No. 10 isn't very stormy, but more of a rather stylised eruption.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 12, 2012, 04:23:43 AM
I do disagree with John on some points regarding Das Siegeslied. I think there is good music there. The slow movement is marvellous in the Poole recording & that final surge of power at the end is very exciting,although obviously a relief to John! I remember the C90 cassette I listened to for years & still have (and it STILL plays!) had the 'side turn' just before that. A bit annoying! My copies of the Schmidt Gothic used to end up on C120's to avoid too many side turns,even though they told us NOT to use them. No wonder they're gone!
No 2 isn't up there with the best,I suppose,BUT I think allot of the problems I have with the symphony are the lack of a really first class recording in really good state of the art sound. There is a haunting,phantasmagorical quality (for want of a better word!) to much of it,which really does stay in the mind,although unlike the kaleidescopic third,there are passages where Brians inspiration seems to run a little thin. Yet,I think this is a symphony that COULD have a powerful impact. I wish Dutton or some other label would have a go! And WHY NOT No5? Grrr! If only I had a record label!
Agree with you about No 10. 'Stylised' is just the right term. And,it really is more of a 'psychological' storm than an Alpine one! ;D The old LSSO performance really rules here,Okay (as they say!).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 12, 2012, 04:46:28 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 12, 2012, 03:30:04 AM
Das Siegeslied followed by some nice,soothing Jon Leifs!
(Incidentally,Leifs Saga Symphony would be great fun at the Proms. I've got the BIS Saga cd,somewhere.Must dig it out! Another great original! Although,John MAY disagree?!!!
Still waiting for the MM book. The cheque got sent off on Tuesday afternoon. MM is VERY persuasive. After reading his description of Das Siegeslied I may end up with the Poole on repeat. Although,I think I'll probably jump to No 3,for starters,persuasion or not! I LOVE that symphony!
Never heard the work or anything by this composer. What's it sound like in terms of its general style? Gizza clue. I am, of course assuming that the John you mention is in fact me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 12, 2012, 04:51:21 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 12, 2012, 03:52:47 AM

He is. Anyone with an open mind must get hooked on Brian by just reading his descriptions (as I was). And the great thing is - he 'oversells' the qualities of the symphonies in only a few cases. But remember - he wrote vol. 1 when he was in his early twenties. In most cases I still can't fault his evaluations. Where I differ - I don't think the first movement of No. 2 is all that good, the main theme is too amorphous; I don't consider 'Das Siegeslied' Brian's greatest symphony (don't ask if one of the 32 actually is!); the 'storm' passage in No. 10 isn't very stormy, but more of a rather stylised eruption.
We are in total agreement on the Siegeslied. It's in my short list for being his worst. For a real storm go to Dick Strauss, not HB. Stylised eruption is a rather good description. Maybe you should take up writing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 12, 2012, 04:53:15 AM
Dundonnell's quotation from the Penguin guide to Choral music reminded me of another bit of writing that got my young mind going,all those years ago. Hard to find nice s/h copies now.We used to have lots of nice bookshops,now they're all boring chain stores.Every ones's the same,just a bit bigger or smaller. Gone are the life changing,suprise finds of 'yesteryore!' :(
The liner notes with my Lp's of the marvellous Forlane set were another one. It set my imagination racing,all those allusions to huge,ambitious,exciting sounding music! And as if that wasn't enough,another mysterious personage called John Foulds. And I must not forget Hubert parry.His Symphony No 3,full of bracing tunes & sweeping melodies. It's still my favourite Parry symphony!
What an inspired record issue that was!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 12, 2012, 04:55:16 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 12, 2012, 04:51:21 AM
We are in total agreement on the Siegeslied. It's in my short list for being his worst. For a real storm go to Dick Strauss, not HB. Stylised eruption is a rather good description. Maybe you should take up writing.
I may be wrong,but I THINK Johan HAS (taken up writing)!!!!
I mentioned Jon Leifs because he's,erm,VERY loud! Often!!!!
Icelandic,actually. Anvils & giant rocks being bashed are pretty routine!
Johan knows his work,too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 12, 2012, 05:06:09 AM
He was a loner like Langgaard who did what HE wanted to do! Also,like Langgaard,he rubbed all his countrymen up the wrong way,but for slightly different reasons,perhaps not all his fault. He treats some very unusual,percussive instruments almost as if they are a routine part of an orchestra,rather than exotic intrusions. I think he's (was) quite clever at it. I would say the Saga Symphony is a more subtle work than Das Siegeslied. At least,I hope so? A 'mad' masterpiece possibly? It nearly gave my mum a heart attack,when I played it to her! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 12, 2012, 05:14:42 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 12, 2012, 04:23:43 AM
I do disagree with John on some points regarding Das Siegeslied. I think there is good music there. The slow movement is marvellous in the Poole recording & that final surge of power at the end is very exciting,although obviously a relief to John! I remember the C90 cassette I listened to for years & still have (and it STILL plays!) had the 'side turn' just before that. A bit annoying! My copies of the Schmidt Gothic used to end up on C120's to avoid too many side turns,even though they told us NOT to use them. No wonder they're gone!
No 2 isn't up there with the best,I suppose,BUT I think allot of the problems I have with the symphony are the lack of a really first class recording in really good state of the art sound. There is a haunting,phantasmagorical quality (for want of a better word!) to much of it,which really does stay in the mind,although unlike the kaleidescopic third,there are passages where Brians inspiration seems to run a little thin. Yet,I think this is a symphony that COULD have a powerful impact. I wish Dutton or some other label would have a go! And WHY NOT No5? Grrr! If only I had a record label!
Agree with you about No 10. 'Stylised' is just the right term. And,it really is more of a 'psychological' storm than an Alpine one! ;D The old LSSO performance really rules here,Okay (as they say!).
This really opens up a huge can of worms/potential discussion thread. My favourite Elgar fiddle concerto recordings are by Sammons and Menuhin, both from 78s. The sound is of no consequence because it's a great work and played wonderfully well in both versions. Great music is great music. Poor sound quality is something you can learn to listen through. Don't get me wrong, I would love a stereo top class sounding version of the Sammons but it can't happen. I've listened to the recording of HB 2 on Naxos and it's not just the sound. The playing isn't very good is it? Here's the rub - does a great work transcend poor recording quality and poor standards of performance? In my view, great music is great music. It's good to hear music beautifully played in good sound but is a masterpiece such as Bruckner 7 (cough) somehow less of a masterpiece if it's recorded by a poor provincial orchestra in bad sound? My view is no. I once heard the Halle doing Shostakovitch 5 with Arvid Yansons in De Montfort Hall and it was just shocking. A disaster. Panned by the critics. The same forces repeated this at the Festival Hall two nights later - immaculate and great reviews. The stature of the work hadn't miraculously changed in 2 days though, had it? Same dots on the page. Same man with the same stick. My point - either Brian 2 is a great work, good work, mediocre work or terrible work. I don't see that performance or recording standards have much to do with it. So there.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 12, 2012, 05:18:40 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 12, 2012, 04:55:16 AM
I may be wrong,but I THINK Johan HAS (taken up writing)!!!! I mentioned Jon Leifs because he's,erm,VERY loud! Often!!!!
Icelandic,actually. Anvils & giant rocks being bashed are pretty routine!
Johan knows his work,too.
Irony old chap, irony ;D From your description I think Leifs is a bit too subtle for me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on January 12, 2012, 05:23:36 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 12, 2012, 04:55:16 AM
I may be wrong,but I THINK Johan HAS (taken up writing)!!!!
I mentioned Jon Leifs because he's,erm,VERY loud! Often!!!!
Icelandic,actually. Anvils & giant rocks being bashed are pretty routine!
Johan knows his work,too.

One of Leifs favourite subjects is...the music of volcanoes!   He is rather good at it. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 12, 2012, 05:32:39 AM
Scots John. The artist formerly known as John of Clydebank. Like it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 12, 2012, 05:34:30 AM
A very interesting & GOOD point! I was just trying to defend it to be honest. I don't think even the greatest orchestra or conductor would ever make it sound THAT good,which it isn't. But there are some passages I like. But,aherm,wait a minute,when did I last even put it on?!!! :o
An example that springs to mind,is of the Classico recording of York Bowen's Second Symphony. I personally don't care for Yorkie Bowen,and in my humble opinion,his Second Symphony sounded just as crummy in the Chandos recording,which everyone seemed to rave about.
Though,in the case of Shostakovich's Fifth,there are allot of recordings & a well established tradition of performances,so you're not just at the mercy of one lousy performance or recording.
But if you put a fantastic performance of Das Siegeslied alongside a lousy rendition of 'Belshazzar's Feast',I don't think anyone would have any problem deciding which was the greater work! ;D

PS: I have a 1924 recording of Bruckner's Seventh,by Oskar Fried,you might like! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 12, 2012, 06:01:38 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 12, 2012, 04:51:21 AMStylised eruption is a rather good description. Maybe you should take up writing.

Yes, I should. ;-)

As for 'stylised eruptions', there are more of them in the Brian symphonic canon - Symphony No. 7 (two of them), Symphony No. 30 and 31 spring to mind.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 12, 2012, 06:08:20 AM
A few disparate remarks:

I don't mind old recordings either. And Sammons is top of the list for me, too, in the Elgar Violin Concerto (the Delius, too...)

I always think of Brian 2 as a chained giant. There are passages of great beauty and power, but Brian can't 'let rip', it seems to me. The final movement is a case in point - it has a certain grandeur, but Brian chose to punctuate the thing by a Götterdämmerung-like motif, which robs the music of its flow.

I like Leifs, though not too often. But the Saga Symphony and a piece like Hekla are very very strong.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2012, 06:19:25 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 12, 2012, 05:14:42 AMMy point - either Brian 2 is a great work, good work, mediocre work or terrible work. I don't see that performance or recording standards have much to do with it. So there.

I believe that absolutely. Which is why I never dis, for example, the Marco Polo/Naxos Brian recordings like a certain Welshman (who I won't name  ;D ) does.  I like the symphonies, enjoy the recordings, despite the mediocre sound and/or poor performances.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 12, 2012, 08:04:20 AM
I think I tend to agree with a bit of what Johan says & a bit of what John says! Whatever their meririts (or lack of them?),I must admit they're not at the top of my list of Brian symphonies I'd choose to put on. But I'd rather listen to No 2 than No 4. Also,MM's description of Das Siegeslied is more consistently inspired than the actual symphony itself! Unlike the symphony,itself,I can hardly wait to reaquaint myself with it! ;D

As to shoddy performances and recordings. Well.that's okay,for Shostakovich No 4. Yes,it's still a masterpiece,nothing can change that;but if you hadn't heard it before or had no other way of hearing it,a shoddy performance might colour you're reaction to it. As to recording quality;having a collection of early electrical and acoustic recordings of orchestral works I would be the first person to agree that this should in no way hinder the impact of a truly great work. The previously mentioned Fried account of Bruckner's Seventh,not to mention Nikisch's Beethoven Fifth are all pretty powerful readings. On the other hand,the Marco Polo recording of Bantock's Hebridean Symphony was an apalling way to encounter the work for the very first time,NOT so much because of the 'boxy' sounding recording,but because the horns didn't come out,you could hardly hear them.The clans might as well have been farting! :D (Perhaps they were? :o)This is a crucial climax in that particular work and it completely destroyed the impact!
I write this as someone who quite likes Bantock,but doesn't play his music THAT much!

NB: What about them 'nicks' (?),Sarge?!!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 12, 2012, 10:08:16 AM
Great Music is Great Music regardless of sound quality.

Having, as a child (sub 12) grown up with 78s I can testify to the impression that recordings which were quite execrable had on me.

I have an old Melodyia LP-which weighs a ton- of Mravinsky and the Leningrad Phil. doing Wagner's Overture to "Tannhauser". The sound is absolutely ghastly, the performance is incandescent with a burning passion, a driven intensity and a quite glorious sense of the music's power and majesty which I have NEVER heard bettered :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 12, 2012, 10:10:27 AM
.....and if you think that Malcolm MacDonald's writing is both evocative and inspiring........

...just imagine what it was like spending almost all of my time in his company from the age of 14 to 18 and receiving one lengthy letter per week from him for four years when he was in Cambridge ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on January 12, 2012, 10:29:24 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 12, 2012, 10:08:16 AM
Great Music is Great Music regardless of sound quality.

Yes, but poor sound quality is poor regardless of the greatness of the music : )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 12, 2012, 10:29:59 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 12, 2012, 10:08:16 AM
Great Music is Great Music regardless of sound quality.

Having, as a child (sub 12) grown up with 78s I can testify to the impression that recordings which were quite execrable had on me.

I have an old Melodyia LP-which weighs a ton- of Mravinsky and the Leningrad Phil. doing Wagner's Overture to "Tannhauser". The sound is absolutely ghastly, the performance is incandescent with a burning passion, a driven intensity and a quite glorious sense of the music's power and majesty which I have NEVER heard bettered :) :)
I've always liked the Columbia Philharmonia Klemperer. Maybe because it's the first version I bought and "that's the way the piece goes". I have the same feelings about Goossens Scheherazade, Sargent's Pines/Fountains, Spivakovsky's Sibelius fiddle concerto and Hannikainen's Sibelius 2. Childhood memories from the WRC days and these have stayed with me as my preferences.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 12, 2012, 10:54:55 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 12, 2012, 10:08:16 AM
Great Music is Great Music regardless of sound quality.

Having, as a child (sub 12) grown up with 78s I can testify to the impression that recordings which were quite execrable had on me.

I have an old Melodyia LP-which weighs a ton- of Mravinsky and the Leningrad Phil. doing Wagner's Overture to "Tannhauser". The sound is absolutely ghastly, the performance is incandescent with a burning passion, a driven intensity and a quite glorious sense of the music's power and majesty which I have NEVER heard bettered :) :)
I'm with you on 78's. My only 'record player' until I was in my late teens (late 70's) was a wind up HMV Gramophone,which belonged to my grandparents. No one wanted it,so they gave it to me!
Years later,I bought a lovely tall,near,waist high Vintage HMV. I kept admiring it the window. A couple of days later I bought it after a few pints of bitter in the old pub!

I'm a bit of a fan of early acoustic & electrical recordings & I wish they'd been able to record the Gothic in 1928! I have some late 20's/early 30's recordings by Coates,Mengelberg & Fried,of large scale works & I prefer them to some modern recordings. Funnily enough,with those early recordings,you can often hear allot of detail,which you miss on some modern recordings.I suppose this is partly because they had to mike them more closely/carefully?

Also like Weingartner's Beethoven cycle!

In terms of poor sound,Elgars own famous live recordings of excerpts from 'The Dream of Gerontius' are pretty horrendous,but through all the mush and noise,the performances themselves are very moving.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 12, 2012, 10:55:30 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 12, 2012, 10:10:27 AM
.....and if you think that Malcolm MacDonald's writing is both evocative and inspiring........

...just imagine what it was like spending almost all of my time in his company from the age of 14 to 18 and receiving one lengthy letter per week from him for four years when he was in Cambridge ;D ;D
You lucky man!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on January 12, 2012, 11:00:01 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 12, 2012, 10:08:16 AM
Great Music is Great Music regardless of sound quality.

Yes indeed.  Those of us who lived in the age of tape recorders at a young age taped the radio and some of us even bought 'bootlegs' of our favourite pop/rock.  The sound quality didn't matter.  It was the music that mattered.  Our acoustic expectations may have changed with modern recordings, but great music is still great music.  (Er...one caveat...as long as its played well.)
:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 12, 2012, 11:02:13 AM
I won't mention Rock music here. Oh,wait a minute,I have. Jon Leifs! :o

Reminds me of some bloke in the old greasy spoon cafe (long gone) who used to brag about his diabetes and 78's of 'The Beatles'. He'd also been taught to sing by Pavarotti,in Manchester!
We didn't believe him,of course! :(

Led Zeppelin,AC DC,Santana,Deep Purple,Jimi Hendrix,The Groundhogs,Cream & stuff like that,don't get too many mentions here,oddly enough. Although I think ELP & Deep Purple (thanks to Malcolm Arnold) have had an honourable look in......and the Grateful Dead,of course! ;D

Actually,I think James Brown popped in once!
(Wake up,I feel like a Havergal Brian Machine!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 12, 2012, 11:40:16 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 12, 2012, 10:08:16 AM
Great Music is Great Music regardless of sound quality.
I'm gonna go somewhat against the grain and disagree. Great music can be hidden/camouflaged/reduced by poor quality sound.  Sure, on the page, it is still great (so really we agree too), but if the sound quality prevents you from hearing that then for all practical purposes it is not.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on January 12, 2012, 11:46:20 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 12, 2012, 11:40:16 AM
I'm gonna go somewhat against the grain and disagree. Great music can be hidden/camouflaged/reduced by poor quality sound.  Sure, on the page, it is still great (so really we agree too), but if the sound quality prevents you from hearing that then for all practical purposes it is not.

Yes . . . the poor sound quality doesn't get in the way if (a) it's a piece you already know well, and (b) well, if it's not too poor for you to tolerate (which will vary by listener, natch).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 12, 2012, 12:23:13 PM
Quote from: Scots John on January 12, 2012, 11:00:01 AM
Yes indeed.  Those of us who lived in the age of tape recorders at a young age taped the radio and some of us even bought 'bootlegs' of our favourite pop/rock.  The sound quality didn't matter.  It was the music that mattered.  Our acoustic expectations may have changed with modern recordings, but great music is still great music.  (Er...one caveat...as long as its played well.) :D
I can hack my way through the Beethoven piano sonatas. Some I can do OK but most of 'em sound terrible because my technique isn't good enough. Still great music though, surely? As I write this, having just returned from brass band rehearsals, my youngest (grade 8 standard) is playing Don't Stop Me Now, Spamalot and Penny Lane on the piano. Sounds great. Can I get him to do much Schubert and Beethoven? No. He plays that for his grades and everything else is busked by ear. I give up. Oh I take it all back -Scarlatti has just broken out. That's my boy. Oh blimey - he's now doing Always Look on the Bright Side of Life ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 12, 2012, 12:27:54 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 12, 2012, 12:23:13 PM
Oh blimey - he's now doing Always Look on the Bright Side of Life ;D


Good boy, bringing us back to (Life of) Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 12, 2012, 12:40:42 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 12, 2012, 12:27:54 PM

Good boy, bringing us back to (Life of) Brian.
You are on the ball tonight.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on January 12, 2012, 01:24:41 PM
Heifetz for the Elgar concerto.

Melodiya: now that was an experience. I had Svetlanov's Rachmaninov first symphony on LP which I played relentlessly on my Dansette record player at the end of the 60s, making a fierce, distortion-laden recording almost unlistenable-to. Even the Regis CD reissue is much the same! But the performance is incandescent, terrifying. A bit like Schmidt in the Gothic 'non-confundars'.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 12, 2012, 01:39:40 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on January 12, 2012, 01:24:41 PM
Heifetz for the Elgar concerto.

Melodiya: now that was an experience. I had Svetlanov's Rachmaninov first symphony on LP which I played relentlessly on my Dansette record player at the end of the 60s, making a fierce, distortion-laden recording almost unlistenable-to. Even the Regis CD reissue is much the same! But the performance is incandescent, terrifying. A bit like Schmidt in the Gothic 'non-confundars'.

;)


I had my first taste of the Rach 1 at the Concertgebouw in the early 1980s. Has been a firm favourite ever since. Is Svetlanov just as good as, say, Previn and Ashkenazy?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on January 13, 2012, 12:45:24 AM
Johan, you have mail...

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 13, 2012, 01:56:35 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on January 12, 2012, 01:24:41 PM
Heifetz for the Elgar concerto.Melodiya: now that was an experience. I had Svetlanov's Rachmaninov first symphony on LP which I played relentlessly on my Dansette record player at the end of the 60s, making a fierce, distortion-laden recording almost unlistenable-to. Even the Regis CD reissue is much the same! But the performance is incandescent, terrifying. A bit like Schmidt in the Gothic 'non-confundars'.

;)
Heifetz for virtually everything as far as I'm concerned but not his Elgar for me at any rate. Just doesn't seem to suit him despite the usual impeccable playing. His intonation was just extraordinary. I don't know how he got to that level. Maybe he practised. Rach 1 - always had a soft spot for the scrawny sounding CBS Ormandy myself as used on BBC's Panorama programme.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on January 13, 2012, 03:58:17 AM
Aaah - so it was the Ormandy. I always wondered which version they used - although there weren't many around at that time, and it certainly wasn't the Svetlanov.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 13, 2012, 05:11:00 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on January 13, 2012, 03:58:17 AM
Aaah - so it was the Ormandy. I always wondered which version they used - although there weren't many around at that time, and it certainly wasn't the Svetlanov.

;)
Do I win a prize?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 13, 2012, 06:19:31 AM
Vol 1 of Malcolm MacDonald's Symphonies of HB popped through the letterbox today. No dustjacket,but good s/h condition. A faint,'old book' odour,but not gas mask nasty! Very pleased. MM's mouth watering description of Das Siegeslied would have John slavering to hear it....IF he hadn't ALREADY heard it! :(

Malcolm MacDonald,the Rider Haggard of Classical music!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 13, 2012, 07:16:01 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 13, 2012, 06:19:31 AM
Vol 1 of Malcolm MacDonald's Symphonies of HB popped through the letterbox today. No dustjacket,but good s/h condition. A faint,'old book' odour,but not gas mask nasty! Very pleased. MM's mouth watering description of Das Siegeslied would have John slavering to hear it....IF he hadn't ALREADY heard it! :(

Malcolm MacDonald,the Rider Haggard of Classical music!

"the Rider Haggard of Classical music" :o ::)


I am telling him that. He won't be pleased!!! ;D

Actually, Malcolm writes far better English than Rider Haggard :) I say that as someone with a complete collection of all RH's 58 novels. They are cracking yarns and I love many of them dearly but for the storylines not the purple prose.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 13, 2012, 07:26:28 AM
Malcolm MacDonald is a cross between Conan Doyle and Nigella Lawson (as a writer, that is).  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 13, 2012, 08:28:34 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 13, 2012, 07:16:01 AM

"the Rider Haggard of Classical music" :o ::)


I am telling him that. He won't be pleased!!! ;D

;DActually, Malcolm writes far better English than Rider Haggard :) I say that as someone with a complete collection of all RH's 58 novels. They are cracking yarns and I love many of them dearly but for the storylines not the purple prose.
;D Actually,I was referring,light heartedly, to the excitement of discovery that Haggard evokes,not the actual quality of the prose,itself! Haggard was a bit of a pioneer in some respects. Nowadays,movies & programmes about people travelling to exotic places are two a penny & we all tend to take turning on the old tv set & seeing such places for granted. Well,some people do! The impact his descriptions of far off places & exotic adventures must have been immense. The Indiana Jones of his day! When I first read Malcolm MacDonald's book as a teenager,I hadn't even heard most of Brian's symphonies. Thus,in it's own different way,to my young mind,Malcolm MacDonald's descriptions of Brian's 3rd,Das Siegeslied or the Seventh,for example were every bit as thrilling & tantalisingly exotic as Haggard's She or King Solomon's Mines.
Incidentally,I personally think there are some passages of great beauty and power in Haggard's best book (arguably),She. But having said that,it's not the kind of prose that would be regarded as subtle (or pc),these days. Purple,is the right word for allot of Haggard's prose,but at his best,he was b***** good at what he did!

I have been reading She,and MM just made me think of that! The sense of discovery & adventure. Not the prose! (rest assured) ;D

Kipling might have been a better example? But it least I didn't compare Malcolm MacDonald to Edgar Rice Burroughs!

You won't tell him really,WILL YOU?!!! :o
                                                                   Yours Sincerely
                                                                    He who must be obeyed!
                                                                    (but not really)

NB: ALL 58?!!! You're book collection is every bit as as epic as you're cd library!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 13, 2012, 08:58:45 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 13, 2012, 08:28:34 AMWhen I first read Malcolm MacDonald's book as a teenager,I hadn't even heard most of Brian's symphonies.


MM's book was all I had to go on. Only a year later I got to listen to symphonies 8 & 9, and the descriptions proved to be absolutely spot-on.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 13, 2012, 10:13:26 AM
Hadn't you even heard the 'Gothic',then?

It's very hard to describe what a piece music sounds like.Malcolm MacDonald has that rare ability to evoke the sound world of a piece of music in words.
It's quite a slim volume too,really,but there's allot in it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 13, 2012, 10:18:11 AM
I heard the Schmidt Gothic after seeing an article in 'The Times' about the upcoming concert. Something along the lines of 'Brian's Gothic mountain looms once more'! Wish someone had that article. It was the first time I'd ever come across him.
The LSSO 10 & 21,came next. By post,I think,via an ad in Gramophone. I just HAD to hear more!
I wonder what would have happened if the LSSO hadn't been such a GOOD schools orchestra?
No doubt,I would have struggled through & Brian's legacy would have lived on,but as first ever recordings,it was a tremendous premiere. I nearly wore my copy through!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 13, 2012, 11:09:31 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 13, 2012, 10:18:11 AM
I heard the Schmidt Gothic after seeing an article in 'The Times' about the upcoming concert. Something along the lines of 'Brian's Gothic mountain looms once more'! Wish someone had that article. It was the first time I'd ever come across him.
The LSSO 10 & 21,came next. By post,I think,via an ad in Gramophone. I just HAD to hear more!
I wonder what would have happened if the LSSO hadn't been such a GOOD schools orchestra? No doubt,I would have struggled through & Brian's legacy would have lived on,but as first ever recordings,it was a tremendous premiere. I nearly wore my copy through!
You wouldn'thave been royally entertained by me on this forum :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 13, 2012, 12:17:32 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 13, 2012, 01:25:52 PM
Actualy, cilgwyn, I thought that what you wrote a few posts back about Rider Haggard was extremely thoughtful and absolutely spot on :) :)

You captured in what you wrote the essential essence of just what a pioneering novelist RH actually was and the way in which his stories did open up for a generation of young people in particular all the exotic mystery of discovery of the continent in which most of his most famous stories are set. They are still fabulously good reads and just damned fine stories.

The ability of a novelist to 'tell a story' is often an underestimated talent. If the writer can use his story-telling ability to excite the imagination (or his prose, his evocative descriptions, his vivid analogies, as in the case of MM) of the reader then I take my hat off to him. He has achieved such a fundamental impact-Johan will tell you, a life-changing impact) that the achievement is frankly wonderous :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 13, 2012, 01:26:33 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 13, 2012, 07:26:28 AM
Malcolm MacDonald is a cross between Conan Doyle and Nigella Lawson (as a writer, that is).  ;D

:o ??? :P ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 13, 2012, 01:34:44 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 13, 2012, 01:25:52 PM
The ability of a novelist to 'tell a story' is often an underestimated talent. If the writer can use his story-telling ability to excite the imagination (or his prose, his evocative descriptions, his vivid analogies, as in the case of MM) of the reader then I take my hat off to him. He has achieved such a fundamental impact-Johan will tell you, a life-changing impact) that the achievement is frankly wonderous :)


Reading Malcolm MacDonald's books about Havergal Brian changed my life. And Havergal Brian's music has been sustaining me for decades already.


It's the truth, Your Honour.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on January 14, 2012, 01:23:40 AM
Re this, from 10 pages but only a few days ago  ;D

Quote from: Luke on January 07, 2012, 11:02:32 AM
...Over the Christmas break I was reading the first volume of Anthony Burgess' autobiography. But I had to put it down for a while (in fact I've hardly been able to pick it up again) when I turned a page and was shocked to find his damning opinion of the Gothic and Brian in general. He didn't 'get it', perhaps not surprisingly - so many didn't and still don't - but it's not fun to see a writer one admires turn his withering scorn on a composer one loves! Anybody else read it? If not, I will try to grit my teeth and copy it out for the benefit of the thread  ;D
...as this thread is such a valuable resource of things Brianic, has anyone else here read the fairly long and favourable entry on HB in Mark Morris' Dictionary of Twentieth Century Composers? Worth a read (and in the context of this discussion, for its lengthy discussion of the Gothic, which Morris absolutely raves about - it is a masterpiece, he thinks, 'the climax of the Romntic age...an experience quite unlike anything else in musc' which 'entirely justifies' its huge forces). It's not a totally comprehensive dictionary, and the editing leaves much to be desired (in the HB entry there is mention of his Double Fugue in E, for instance), but it's the best thing of this type I've seen. Morris arbitraily awards composer *** or ** or * or no stars at all (most of them). *** is Debussy, Stravinsky, Bartok,  Schoenbrg - the BIG names. ** is Enescu, Dallapiccola, Busoni, Adams, Barber, Delius, Bloch, Glass, Dukas, Holst, Miaskovsky, Kurtag, Villa-Lobos, Wlaton, Rubbra, Respighi, Scriabin etc. * is Bantock, Alwyn, Ustvolskaya, Corigliano..... Morris ranks Brian as a ** composer, which is pleasing.

Also OTTOMH is Wilfrid Mellers' passing judgement on Brian in his RVW book. Intrigued, guardedly favourable but not without criticism, essentially of Brian's melodic skills. He may have a point, or he may be missing one...

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2012, 11:17:28 AM
Please copy the Burgess quotation. Burgess was a symphonist himself and might have resented the fact of Brian's relative success... Very interested in the Mark Morris entry, too. The Mellers I know. But others perhaps won't...

Sorry fort he delay. Here is Burgess on The Gothic. Don't shoot the messenger:
Quote from: Anthony Burgess, Little Wilson and Big GodThe urge to compose some great orchestral work continued, against all the odds [AB is talking of himself here]. But that megalophonia was, as I should have realised, already out of date. The biog orchestra was an Edwardian folly. Stravinsky's Le Dacre du Printemps was the last of the sonic supersplurges, and it was as much a parody of pretension as an act of self-indulgence - the Russian primitive in Straussian plush.

If I had known anything of the career of Havergal Brian at that tie, I would have been warned off my ambitions. For Brian committed millions of notes to scoring paper and then committed that paper to a drawer. There was no hope of hearing them, and perhaps no desire to expose a musical mind he must have known to be mediocre to the hard Sophoclean light [I'm not enjoying copying this, I hope you know...this theory is a new, ignorant and irresponsible extension of some aspects of the HB myth. Grrr] The writing of melodies unheard is less stoically heroic than it appears. In the 1960s I contributed money to the funding of a performance of Havergal Brian's huge 'Gothic' Symphony, and, like so many, was desperately disappointed and even embarrassed by the display of second-rate musical thinking dressed up with bass oboes and basset horns. The work read far better than it sounded. There are perhaps, after all, no mute inglorious Beethovens.

Nevertheless, HB seems to weigh on AB's mind. In another collection I have of his writing (will I ever buy any more?) his review of the then-new Grove shows that of the millions of entries he could have sampled, the HB entry was one he chose. The terms are less damning here, as he is not tying to make a point, perhaps:

[wuote author=Anthony Burgess, review of The New Grove]On Havergal Brian a judgement is made which is applicable to most of the figures of the British musical renaisance - that the fresh and idiosyncratic are juxtaposed with the banal and the conventional[/quote].

Wilfrid Mellers is much more balanced than Burgess, but that's no surprise. As I said, I feel he may be missing the point re Brian a little, but I can see what he means:

Quote from: Wilfrid Meller, Vaughan Williams and the Vision of Albion...The Lloyd symphonies are, however, no more than peripheral to the English succession as represented by the symphonies of Vaughan Williams and Rubbra; and the same must be said of the symphonies of a still odder, more phenomenal, composer of Vaughan Williams's own generation - Havergal Brian, a poor boy from the Potteries who, with virtually no cultural background or formal education but by virtue of exceptional intellectual acumen, managed to become a professional composer, producing a vast body of music wherein he defined a unique symphonic world.

In his early days in the late nineteenth century Brian was haunted by German romantic literature, especially Goethe, and his first symphonies are unsurprisingly gargantuan in the tradition of Mahler. His later symphonies became incrementally terser and tougher, more quirky and quixotic, as the years rolled on: as roll they did, for Brian, living a decade longer (even) than Vaughan Williams, wrote thirty-two symphonies, twenty-one of them, incredibly enough, after he had passed the age of eighty. There is something slightly monstrous about so long a carrer devoted to the production of so much music which the composer - at least for most of this century - did not expect to hear performed. Whether we call the idiom of the symphonies European, or just sui generis, it has little to do with Vaughan Williams's concept of an English symphony. Not surprisingly, opinionsas to how important, as distinct from extraordinary, Brian's work is vary considerably. The present writer finds the symphonies' idiomatic oddity in itself fascinating, structurally, texturally and orchestrally, though ultimately vitiated by a lack of memorable melodic inventiveness. But it is more to the point that one of Brian's staunchest admirers should be the finest British symphonist of the generation after Rubbra: namely Robert Simpson who, like Brian and Vaughan Williams, sees symphony (and string quartet) as a spiritual pilgrimage...

With the exception of Simpson - and perhaps in his oddball way Havergal Brian - the composer so far mentioned look, if not backwards, no further forwards than themselves...

Reading that again, I'm struck Mellers' balance, objectiveness and humility (much greater than Burgess's understandably self-centred autobiographical entry). He present Brian fairly, notes that there is debate about his importance (a debate which now, years later, seems to be swinging Brian's way at last, now that, significantly, more people actually know the music rather than commenting on its reputation and on hearsay). He gives his own opinion, as a FWIW, finds it mixed, but then graciously defers to Robert Simpson's. Mellers really was a fine writer, IMO.

The Mark Morris, which includes some extravagant praise which balances out the nonsense from Burgess nicely, is very long - I will copy it out as soon as I get the chance!

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 14, 2012, 01:38:33 AM
Many thanks for taking the trouble, Luke. That first Burgess quote is entertaining as always, though it misses the mark. The big orchestra an 'Edwardian folly'? It was a nineteenth-century development, and Brian was one of its heirs. He also outgrew his 'megalophonia'. Also - judging The Gothic to be a failure after its first amateur performance is a bit premature. As for Mellers - I know the quotes, as I said. And yes, Mellers is very balanced and open-minded. He can entertain the thought that there might be more to Brian's 'oddity' and 'quirkiness' than meets the ear. I like it. I'll be reading his RVW book as a whole shortly, by the way.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 14, 2012, 02:25:44 PM
The conductor Kenneth Woods just wrote on Twitter:


The most read, most discussed blog post at VFTP [View from the Podium] in 2011:
Havergal Brian- Gothic "Symphony" at the Proms.


As a reminder, here are his two posts, with interesting comments:


http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/18/havergal-brian-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/ (http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/18/havergal-brian-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/)


http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/23/havergal-brian-the-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms-a-few-more-thoughts/#more-3237 (http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/23/havergal-brian-the-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms-a-few-more-thoughts/#more-3237)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 14, 2012, 05:15:44 PM
Are we supposed to think that this represents a balanced piece of critical writing ::) ???

It is appallingly badly written, frequently crass in the extreme, a long-winded stream of consciousness set of musings, only redeemed by occasional insights :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Copeland on January 14, 2012, 05:41:59 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 14, 2012, 05:15:44 PM
Are we supposed to think that this represents a balanced piece of critical writing ::) ???

It is appallingly badly written, frequently crass in the extreme, a long-winded stream of consciousness set of musings, only redeemed by occasional insights :(

Wholeheartedly agreed.  If Woods wants to listen to Mahler, or Berlioz, or Beethoven or whatever, he should listen to them because he will not find them in Brian (though he's trying hard enough).  Brian is not any of these, nor should he even be compared to them, or anything he's done be 'linked' to them somehow.  There are no other composers who are similar to Brian.  Brians are one in a million.  Pettersson is one in a million.  Llangaard is too.  There are others.  But none of them fit what people like Kenneth Woods expect because they are different from the mainstream.  They don't fit each other either.  Brian was his own man.  These reviews are complete fantasy I'm afraid, and not just because I happen to like Havergals music.  I sincerely hope he does not get paid for writing these.  He completely misunderstands the Brian paradigm with an extremely narrow mind and a badly clouded idea of what Brian actually composed.  What a waste of reading time I spent there...   >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 14, 2012, 06:32:02 PM
Glad we are in agreement, John ;D

Looking back at what I posted I suddenly thought "have it got it all wrong and am I just being choleric, bad-tempered and obtuse" ;D ;D

I suppose that what got me going was the whole opening argument about symphony or anti-symphony, then the comparisons with Mahler, Berlioz and Beethoven, Woods' criticisms of the incapability-as he sees it-of Brian to structure the work properly, his apparent perception that Brian is actually wasting the orchestral forces at his command, etc, etc..........

I am not saying that Woods is totally lacking in perspicacity. He has some interesting things to say but he seems to have precious little ability to find sufficient command of the English language to be able to convey his ideas with a coherence that would allow the reader to assess those opinions with true objectivity.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 14, 2012, 11:08:02 PM
I am not as negative about Wood's stabs at understanding. Yes, he stumbles and fumbles, and he is no writer, but I found (and find) it commendable he seriously tried to make sense of The Gothic in the first place. We should be more charitable. He isn't blankly dismissing Brian like other critics we could name. I think his two blog posts are very instructive, especially as documents of how someone thinks and feels (and flails) when confronted with something as large and odd as 'The Gothic'... But I can understand your disappointment too, Colin and John, if you had expected much much more.

I just asked him if he has  made any 'Brianological progress' since then. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 15, 2012, 06:04:01 AM
I fully expected you to be more charitable, Johan :)

And your point about Woods "trying to make sense" of the Gothic in contrast to so many of the professional critics is perfectly fair. Woods is a conductor of some distinction and not a writer. Nor is a blog necessarily the place one goes to for a deeply considered critical analysis ???

I think that the harshness of my reaction was precisely because as I tried to follow his line of thinking it was precisely that flailing around for meaning that I found so off-putting.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on January 15, 2012, 06:17:33 AM
As another listener with no experience getting 'inside' the Gothic, I very much related to Kenneth Woods' tone and his search for insight or understanding. After you listen for the first time, there is indeed a need to simply spill out all the many different things you're thinking about the piece; it took a heroic act of self-discipline for me to corral my blog post into a chronological movement-by-movement essay that stayed under 2000 words! I've gone back to Woods' commentary several times, actually, and despite the occasional slip-up (he says 'encourage' instead of 'enrage'), I've found it a great help to see that somebody is climbing the same mountain as I am climbing, perhaps taking a slightly different path.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 15, 2012, 06:34:00 AM
I think the fewer preconceptions you have of what constitutes a symphony, the easier it is to accept Brian's music on its own terms (if you are susceptible to its rough charms, that is). Sometimes being knowledgeable can be as much of a hindrance as it is a help to understanding. It also works the other way round: if you know something through and through, it may be difficult to understand the problems others are experiencing. That's why I love Brian virgins (don't snigger): they defamiliarise the familiar again.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 15, 2012, 06:48:55 AM
"Symphonies" come in all shapes and sizes ;D

I don't really care what a composer calls a work and never found the famous Robert Simpson argument that because Stravinsky and Hindemith hadn't written "proper" symphonies their works should be considered separately of any real interest.

Attempting to come to terms with the Gothic as a piece of symphonic development because it is called a symphony is, obviously, both of importance and of concern to those who deem these matters of importance.

I-in my simple-minded way no doubt-don't care. I listen to the Gothic for the sound of the piece and the emotional/aesthetic reaction it produces to my sensibilities. Does it 'touch my soul' (to be overly pompous), does it move me, does it excite me ??? ???

The answer to these questions has been 'YES' ever since I first heard the work :)

Should I "UNDERSTAND" it ???   Yes, of course, I should.........and that is where Malcolm's book, which of course, I read when it was first written and my discussions with him prior to that helped enormously :)

But...do I fully understand it today ::)  Of course not.......but does that in any way diminish my enthusiasm for the piece......equally, of course not ;D ;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 15, 2012, 08:04:20 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 15, 2012, 06:34:00 AM
I think the fewer preconceptions you have of what constitutes a symphony, the easier it is to accept Brian's music on its own terms (if you are susceptible to its rough charms, that is). Sometimes being knowledgeable can be as much of a hindrance as it is a help to understanding. It also works the other way round: if you know something through and through, it may be difficult to understand the problems others are experiencing. That's why I love Brian virgins (don't snigger): they defamiliarise the familiar again.
Had a few of them in the LSSO. Didn't last long though. Reminds me of the line in the Round the Horne sketch about the Romans: "My name if Frigidous Maximus. The girls call me Frigid for short, but not for long". ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 15, 2012, 09:20:17 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 15, 2012, 08:04:20 AM
Had a few of them in the LSSO. Didn't last long though. Reminds me of the line in the Round the Horne sketch about the Romans: "My name if Frigidous Maximus. The girls call me Frigid for short, but not for long". ;)

;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 15, 2012, 10:21:29 AM
Dan Morgan on Musicweb today (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Jan12/DL_roundup_Jan12_2.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Jan12/DL_roundup_Jan12_2.htm)):




Havergal BRIAN (1876-1972)

Symphony No. 1 in D minor 'The Gothic' (1919-1927) [106:07]
Susan Gritton (soprano), Christine Rice (mezzo), Peter Auty (tenor), Alastair Miles (bass), The Bach Choir, BBC National Chorus of Wales, Brighton Festival Chorus, Côr Caerdydd, CBSO Youth Chorus, Eltham College Boys' Choir, Huddersfield Choral Society, London Symphony Chorus, Southend Boys' and Girls' Choirs
BBC National Orchestra of Wales; BBC Concert Orchestra/Martyn Brabbins
rec. live, 17 July 2011, Royal Albert Hall, London
HYPERION CDA67971/2 [54:07 + 60:41] – from hyperion.co.uk (mp3 and lossless)

Internet message boards and forums were all aflutter when 'The Gothic' was announced for the 2011 BBC Proms. Old-timers became misty eyed remembering Sir Adrian Boult's legendary 1966 recording; some even dared hope this newcomer would get a commercial release, their initial enthusiasm dampened by the less than ideal sonics of the broadcast itself. As it happens, fortune smiled kindly on them and Hyperion issued a 'cleaned-up' version that's already garnered much praise here and elsewhere. So, to find out what all the fuss is about – and to stave off the January gloom – I downloaded the lossless flacs, fired up foobar and...

Good heavens, is this the same sprawling, empurpled racket I heard on that Ondrej Lenard recording all those years ago? The same piece that made me write off this musical maverick as a mere curiosity, his neglect well deserved? First impressions are highly favourable, Brabbins bringing fabulous momentum and clarity to the orchestral movements, the soloists and choirs singing with astonishing discipline and bite. And, even more impressive, the dynamic range – from the lowest organ notes to the highest choral cries – are captured in crisp, unfatiguing sound.

I wasn't in the Albert Hall that night, but even on the recording there's a palpable sense of a musical milestone in the making – rather like Jascha Horenstein's Mahler Eight, recorded at the same venue in 1959. The Prommers – usually a rowdy lot – are remarkably quiet, and I was particularly struck by the wide, detailed stereo spread, which gives a pretty good idea of the hall's acoustics. The distant choral contributions and burnished brass in the Te deum are especially atmospheric, the low brass and cracking timps forthright without sounding unnaturally prominent; indeed, Brabbins and his vast forces are focused and coherent throughout, Brian's more dissonant passages and complex textures very well articulated and recorded.

Funnily enough, my lasting impression of the Lenard recording – my first encounter with 'The Gothic' – left me the impression of an impossibly dense, sub-Ivesian mélange that was beyond all help and reason, and yet at every turn Brabbins' reading demonstrates the opposite, underlining just how clear- and far-sighted Brian's musical ideas really are; indeed, like most neglected works all 'The Gothic' really needs is unwavering advocacy – the work's army of devotees are true zealots – a conductor steady of hand and purpose, and a half-decent modern recording. The similarities to Horenstein's pioneering Mahler Eight are inescapable.

And, surprisingly for a work of such dimensions, I can't find any weak spots; the choral singing has splendid reach and raptness, and the soloists are a closely knit, well-balanced team. I'd forgotten just how beguiling Susan Gritton sounds, the bright-toned tenor Peter Auty especially transported in the last movement. Inevitably, the noise floor seems to rise in the quiet passages, but such is the air of concentration on stage and in the hall that matters not a jot.

But, more than anything, it's the long, unbroken narrative that impresses – Mahler Eight again – the sense of a disparate collection of movements welded seamlessly into a cogent, persuasive whole. Brabbins is keenly aware of the symphony's peaks and valleys, climaxes judiciously scaled; and who else but Brian would dare to include a jaunty woodwind tune in the finale, a disarming little idée fixe that sits comfortably in this radiant but beautifully restrained apotheosis. The sustained applause – all eight minutes and forty seconds of it – is a performance in itself, the Prommers clearly overwhelmed by this thrilling spectacle.

One of the joys of reviewing is the chance to revisit and re-evaluate works that, for one reason or another, have failed to gel first time round. Suk's Asrael eluded me until I heard the recent BIS recording, but as compelling as that is I had to admit it was not a Damascene conversion. This performance of 'The Gothic' most certainly is.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 15, 2012, 01:07:41 PM
Exactly :) ;D

Morgan does not try to read into the music too deeply at this stage, he is responding as one should, in at least the initial stages, to a performance which has won him round to a work he previously found difficult to come to terms with.

This is a 'good review'...not in the sense that Morgan has liked what he has heard(although that in itself is, of course, delightful ;D) but in the sense that he is not falling into what seems to me to be the besetting sin of others of over-intellectualising the music ;D

Now..some may feel offended by that remark ;D There are those amongst us who have written what amounts to short books about the Gothic if one added all their posts together.
Yes-you know who you are ;D

I am NOT directing my criticism at you. HONEST ;D If you know the work, have lived with it then be all means subject it to the detailed musical analysis it certainly merits.
If you feel that that sort of analysis really helps your appreciation of a work you are less familiar with...AGAIN, I have no problem with such an analytical process.

But, it seems to me, that the problem with Kenneth Woods and others is that in attempting to analyse the structure of the Gothic they just succeed in tying themselves in knots by comparing and contrasting it with Beethoven, Berlioz, Mahler, the conventional notion of what a "Symphony" should be or should be constructed.

This 'over-intellectualisation' is artistic folly in my opinion if it over-rides a visceral, emotional response.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 15, 2012, 03:49:25 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 15, 2012, 01:07:41 PMThis 'over-intellectualisation' is artistic folly in my opinion if it over-rides a visceral, emotional response.


Agreed. The experience must come first, then the analysis, if you are thus inclined (and some of us on this thread, yes, are fascinated by how Brian's music is put together and also have (some) technical knowledge, whether as a musician, a composer, or, for that matter, a music-obsessed writer...).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Florestan on January 16, 2012, 05:42:01 AM
Believe me or not but yesterday night I dreamt I was attending a performance of the Gothic; in Istanbul of all places and in a gothic church no less; after it was over (the symphony, not the dream) I was in someone's room stealing some CDs with other Brian music (can't remember what). Then I awoke. Reality is I have never heard the Gothic. Any idea what this dream might mean?  :D :D :D

EDIT: typo corrected.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 16, 2012, 06:13:43 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 16, 2012, 05:42:01 AMAny idea what this dream might mean?  :D :D :D

It's a dream about sex, of course. See our earlier discussion in this thread about the orgasm the Gothic induces in some listeners  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Florestan on January 16, 2012, 06:16:53 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 16, 2012, 06:13:43 AM
It's a dream about sex, of course. See our earlier discussion in this thread about the orgasm the Gothic induces in some listeners  ;D

Sarge

Thank you, Mr. Freud. Now I can hardly wait for the opinion of Mr. Jung.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 16, 2012, 06:46:23 AM
Carl Jung says: the dream is archetypal. It conflates two Brians - Brian Reinhart, of Turkish descent, and Havergal Brian, the eponymous composer of this thread. The dream betokens an imminent conversion to Brianity. I suggest the rapid purchase of the Hyperion 'Gothic' to forestall more febrile nocturnal explosions.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 16, 2012, 07:09:58 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 16, 2012, 06:46:23 AM
Carl Jung says: the dream is archetypal. It conflates two Brians - Brian Reinhart, of Turkish descent, and Havergal Brian, the eponymous composer of this thread. The dream betokens an imminent conversion to Brianity. I suggest the rapid purchase of the Hyperion 'Gothic' to forestall more febrile nocturnal explosions.
Here we go. More Bruckner........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Florestan on January 16, 2012, 07:21:57 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 16, 2012, 06:46:23 AM
Carl Jung says: the dream is archetypal. It conflates two Brians - Brian Reinhart, of Turkish descent, and Havergal Brian, the eponymous composer of this thread. The dream betokens an imminent conversion to Brianity. I suggest the rapid purchase of the Hyperion 'Gothic' to forestall more febrile nocturnal explosions.

Thank you too, Mr. Jung.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 17, 2012, 08:52:59 PM
Hi guys

Just wanted to add my voice to the thread. I am a long-time HB fan, I first heard the English Suite No.5 in a BBC Radio 3 broadcast in the 1980s and was mesmerised (I agree that the recent recording of this work is a little too dry and perfunctory).

I think that Brian is one of the very greatest of composers because he does two things supremely well, and does them simultaneously. The first is that he provides a very strong sense of musical flow in the way that only the greatest of composers like Byrd, Haydn, Mozart, Sibelius, Nielsen, Simpson can. You feel listening to Brian like you are travelling on a river and are drawn inexorably onwards. But, Brian also provides a very strong sense of fragmentariness and the broken, incomplete nature of consciousness, where beautiful reverie is mixed with anger, frustration, boredom, fear &c. And the miracle is that both of these processes are happening at the same time, which is why his music is poignant and inspiriting simultaneously.

I've been reading this thread today and got about 50 pages in, but I don't have time to do this really, and I suspect that soon after page 50 you're all going to start discussing the Proms performance at great length (love the Gothic, love the later Symphonies even more).

I did have a selfish motive in reading through, to try to find mp3s of broadcasts and unavailable recordings that people had posted. I downloaded the Symphony 5, which I'll listen to, and three out of four movements of Symphony 21 (J. Z. Herrenberg could you fix the second movement on mediafire please :-) ? )

But I was wondering if anyone could link to any more; I'd be particualrly interested in Symphony 22 and Mackerras's broadcast of 27.

cheers
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 18, 2012, 01:37:48 AM
Also wanted to say I agree with everyone here who has praised Malcolm MacDonald's volumes. They are very wonderful musical criticism and the best advocacy for Brian there can be. The passage of his which I think best sums up Brian is Vol 3 p 202:

Brian's Tenth [Symphony] embodies particularly clearly the lesson which his discontinuities, in their various ways, all seem designed to teach: that no one attitude, or viewpoint, or world-picture, is ever enough—that certainty, of anything, is illusory, and in any case ultimately valueless, because it limits the potential of the mind. His music, though in many places 'mystical' in that it shows awareness of mysteries, perhaps even including the mysteries of religion, is therefore also in the most exact sense of the term profoundly agnostic. Thence, presumably, stems the naggingly 'unfinal' quality of his codas; thence, no doubt, stemmed his astonishing capacity for self-renewal.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 18, 2012, 07:10:32 AM
Welcome :)

....and two very interesting and valuable contributions to the Brian discussion :) :)

For a vast tranche of HB's music all available for Download you should also join the 'Unsung Composers' Forum from which, if you are a member, you can download the works to which you refer ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 18, 2012, 07:41:09 AM
Yes, welcome from me too, Calyptorhynchus! As Colin says, there are many (Brian) treasures at Unsung Composers. Oh, and if you are interested in some great (and cheap) restorations of the two first Brian LPs, look here: http://klassichaus.us/ (http://klassichaus.us/)

In the meantime, here is the second movement of No. 21:


http://www.mediafire.com/?551me9l5091p277 (http://www.mediafire.com/?551me9l5091p277)


And here is Symphony No. 27:



http://www.mediafire.com/?nnmaljcwk1t (http://www.mediafire.com/?nnmaljcwk1t)


http://www.mediafire.com/?wxb3i1xnalj (http://www.mediafire.com/?wxb3i1xnalj)


http://www.mediafire.com/?tfy0b1mi51b (http://www.mediafire.com/?tfy0b1mi51b)


Johan

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 18, 2012, 07:56:59 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 18, 2012, 07:41:09 AM
Yes, welcome from me too, Calyptorhynchus! As Colin says, there are many (Brian) treasures at Unsung Composers. Oh, and if you are interested in some great (and cheap) restorations of the two first Brian LPs, look here: http://klassichaus.us/ (http://klassichaus.us/)In the meantime, here is the second movement of No. 21:

http://www.mediafire.com/?551me9l5091p277 (http://www.mediafire.com/?551me9l5091p277)


And here is Symphony No. 27:



http://www.mediafire.com/?nnmaljcwk1t (http://www.mediafire.com/?nnmaljcwk1t)


http://www.mediafire.com/?wxb3i1xnalj (http://www.mediafire.com/?wxb3i1xnalj)


http://www.mediafire.com/?tfy0b1mi51b (http://www.mediafire.com/?tfy0b1mi51b)


Johan
I urge you strongly to go to the Klassichaus link that Johan has posted. These are the 2 LSSO LPs (Symphs 10,21,22, Psalm 23 and English Suite No.5) from the 1970s. The restorations are superb, much better than my attempts (including the 21st that Johan has given you a link to). These are a snip at $5. You will love them. Honest. Wecome to the HB madhouse. Please don't mention Bruckner or Khachaturian or we will not remain friends ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 18, 2012, 07:58:41 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 18, 2012, 07:56:59 AM
Welcome to the HB madhouse. Please don't mention Bruckner or Khachaturian or we will not remain friends ;)


Love the bedside manner.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on January 18, 2012, 10:33:38 AM
Hi calyptorhynchus, and welcome! Being an Aussie, did you get to the Brisbane Gothic in December 2010?

Perhaps I could tempt you to join the Havergal Brian Society? We too are a friendly lot. www.havergalbrian.org

Enough of the adverts!

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 18, 2012, 01:12:41 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 18, 2012, 07:10:32 AM
Welcome :)

....and two very interesting and valuable contributions to the Brian discussion :) :)

For a vast tranche of HB's music all available for Download you should also join the 'Unsung Composers' Forum from which, if you are a member, you can download the works to which you refer ;D ;D
I've tried to find this Unsung Composers forum. There's not a download to be found. What's the link to the downloads?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 18, 2012, 01:15:27 PM
You have to join first, John. Only then is it possible to download...


http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 18, 2012, 02:28:41 PM
Hi everyone

Thanks for the links, I have downloaded them and bought and downloaded the second LSSO disk restoration. Three new HB symphonies to listen to, what a treat! pity I have to work today.

Also investigating the Unsung composers site.

Even though I'm in Australia I didn't go to the Brisbane Gothic firstly because I couldn't afford to (I have other expensive hobbies like birdwatching and children) and secondly because I don't actually like orchestral concerts. I find them distracting and the sound is never as good as a recording :-) I grew up listening to records and the radio and have only ever been to a few concerts and found them too expensive and not very satisfying.

My musical tastes were thoroughly conditioned by the fact that I started listening to BBC Radio 3 (in the UK, I moved to Aus in the 1990s) in about 1978, just when Robert Simpson was in full flight with talks on Bruckner and Nielsen and so I lapped these up and then when Hyperion started releasing disks of the Simpson Symphonies and String Quartets in the late 80s and early 90s I was in heaven. I listened to real music before I listened to Romantic music so never got a taste for the latter. One of the earliest records I bought was Bruckner 7, and after that, what do you make of Brahms and all the other fluff? To prefer that sort of music is like someone splashing around in the kitchen sink when they could go and watch the ocean.

I had a similar experience  recently when I bought the CPO Pettersson series. I'd read about these symphonies, about how they were harsh and difficult and unapproachable, and when I listened to them I thought "what's all the fuss about, this is 10/10 music, but there's nothing difficult about it, it's just real music, only people who have never heard real music would have problems with it."

Same with Brian, as soon as I heard the English Suite No.5 and other works I knew, here was a real composer, his music was not so much "music", as life and experience and thought (and good experience and thought) embodied in music.

One of my bugbears in Australia is the Government-run Classic FM station, I think that this is modelled on the UK station of the same name.
About a decade ago I was speaking to a musically-knowledgeable person who opined that 'Classic FM concentrates largely on C19 orchestral and vocal schmalz'. At the time I agreed with him on this, but now would probably modify his view and say that Classic FM these days mainly concentrates on C19 orchestral and vocal schmalz, but also seeks out musical schmalz of all ages. So, for example, Classic FM now plays a lot of baroque operatic arias and 'world music' (which to me sounds like music that isn't good enough to be folk music). How they manage to find bad Baroque music is beyond me, but they do.

I think that if it played good music it could attract many more people to classical music and could make people's lives happier. As it is it seems its only function is to cement in the minds of its listeners a particular type of sentimentality. I have tried to be a thorn in the side of Classic FM for some time.

:-)

Anyway, sorry to have mentioned Bruckner, other composers I like: Lute Music (Renaissance and later, Da Milano , Dowland, Weiss, Gaultier, de Visee &c), viol music (English school (consorts), French School, St Colombe &c), Medieval and Renaissance polyphony, Bach, Bartok, Byrd, Dittersdorf, Dunstaple, Finzi, Haydn, Holmboe, Howells, Ives, Janacek, Mahler, David Matthews, Moeran, Mozart, Norgard, Purcell, Rautaavara, Saygun, Sculthorpe, Sibelius, Tippett, Vanhal, Vaughan Williams, Walton and many others.

Calyptorhynchus is the genus name for the Black-Cockatoos.

cheers all



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Florestan on January 18, 2012, 11:59:08 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 18, 2012, 02:28:41 PM
I listened to real music before I listened to Romantic music so never got a taste for the latter. One of the earliest records I bought was Bruckner 7, and after that, what do you make of Brahms and all the other fluff? To prefer that sort of music is like someone splashing around in the kitchen sink when they could go and watch the ocean.

Bruckner is Romantic. And what do you make of people who actually love Brahms and all other fluff? According to you, they're just clueless about real music. Not very nice of you, Mr. Calyptorhynchus. Ridiculing other people's tastes in your 4th post is not the best way to make friends here. Just saying... ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 19, 2012, 12:12:53 AM
Quote from: Florestan on January 18, 2012, 11:59:08 PM
Bruckner is Romantic. And what do you make of people who actually love Brahms and all other fluff? According to you, they're just clueless about real music. Not very nice of you, Mr. Calyptorhynchus. Ridiculing other people's tastes in your 4th post is not the best way to make friends here. Just saying... ;D


We already have John the Inveterate Brucknerhater on this thread...  ;D I don't think the reputation of either Brahms or Bruckner will be in any way affected by the dislike of a GMG'er. The more interesting question to me is: how Calyptorhynchus can consider Brahms' music 'fluff'! It doesn't have epic grandeur, but it isn't 'fluff', either!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 19, 2012, 05:48:55 AM
Talking about the unloved (or fluff?!!!)! I dug the old Tjeknavorian Khatchaturian recordings of Khatchaturian's Gayaneh (RCA) & the ASV First symphony out of a box a few days ago. Used to love them when I was a youngster (albeit,Tjeknavorian's 1st on RCA). Not so wild about therm these days! Although,the playing on the,so called,'complete' recording of Gayaneh is,admittedly,stunning!

Maybe,I'll settle for Brian's third,instead,or some early Diana Krall! ;D

As to Brahms. I'm not a big fan,but he was a pretty influential composer for a 'bit of fluff'!!!! :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 19, 2012, 05:55:21 AM
I love Brahms, his chamber music, symphonies, Alto Rhapsody, concertos, songs, the lot. Btw, the opening of Symphony No. 1 _is_ epic...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 19, 2012, 06:01:27 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 18, 2012, 01:15:27 PM
You have to join first, John. Only then is it possible to download...


http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php)
Just done it. Many thanks.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 19, 2012, 06:20:07 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 18, 2012, 02:28:41 PM
Hi everyone

Thanks for the links, I have downloaded them and bought and downloaded the second LSSO disk restoration. Three new HB symphonies to listen to, what a treat! pity I have to work today.

Also investigating the Unsung composers site.

Even though I'm in Australia I didn't go to the Brisbane Gothic firstly because I couldn't afford to (I have other expensive hobbies like birdwatching and children) and secondly because I don't actually like orchestral concerts. I find them distracting and the sound is never as good as a recording :-) I grew up listening to records and the radio and have only ever been to a few concerts and found them too expensive and not very satisfying.

My musical tastes were thoroughly conditioned by the fact that I started listening to BBC Radio 3 (in the UK, I moved to Aus in the 1990s) in about 1978, just when Robert Simpson was in full flight with talks on Bruckner and Nielsen and so I lapped these up and then when Hyperion started releasing disks of the Simpson Symphonies and String Quartets in the late 80s and early 90s I was in heaven. I listened to real music before I listened to Romantic music so never got a taste for the latter. One of the earliest records I bought was Bruckner 7, and after that, what do you make of Brahms and all the other fluff? To prefer that sort of music is like someone splashing around in the kitchen sink when they could go and watch the ocean.

I had a similar experience  recently when I bought the CPO Pettersson series. I'd read about these symphonies, about how they were harsh and difficult and unapproachable, and when I listened to them I thought "what's all the fuss about, this is 10/10 music, but there's nothing difficult about it, it's just real music, only people who have never heard real music would have problems with it."

Same with Brian, as soon as I heard the English Suite No.5 and other works I knew, here was a real composer, his music was not so much "music", as life and experience and thought (and good experience and thought) embodied in music.

One of my bugbears in Australia is the Government-run Classic FM station, I think that this is modelled on the UK station of the same name.
About a decade ago I was speaking to a musically-knowledgeable person who opined that 'Classic FM concentrates largely on C19 orchestral and vocal schmalz'. At the time I agreed with him on this, but now would probably modify his view and say that Classic FM these days mainly concentrates on C19 orchestral and vocal schmalz, but also seeks out musical schmalz of all ages. So, for example, Classic FM now plays a lot of baroque operatic arias and 'world music' (which to me sounds like music that isn't good enough to be folk music). How they manage to find bad Baroque music is beyond me, but they do.

I think that if it played good music it could attract many more people to classical music and could make people's lives happier. As it is it seems its only function is to cement in the minds of its listeners a particular type of sentimentality. I have tried to be a thorn in the side of Classic FM for some time.

:-)

Anyway, sorry to have mentioned Bruckner, other composers I like: Lute Music (Renaissance and later, Da Milano , Dowland, Weiss, Gaultier, de Visee &c), viol music (English school (consorts), French School, St Colombe &c), Medieval and Renaissance polyphony, Bach, Bartok, Byrd, Dittersdorf, Dunstaple, Finzi, Haydn, Holmboe, Howells, Ives, Janacek, Mahler, David Matthews, Moeran, Mozart, Norgard, Purcell, Rautaavara, Saygun, Sculthorpe, Sibelius, Tippett, Vanhal, Vaughan Williams, Walton and many others.

Calyptorhynchus is the genus name for the Black-Cockatoos.

cheers all
Well that's very interesting stuff. Taking some of your points in turn:
1) Get the Brian 10/21 download as well. Outshines the official CD by some distance.
2) Live orchestral sound is head and shoulders above recorded sound. I've yet to hear any recording that gets anywhere near the real thing. Having said that I'm not keen on concerts. My preference for recordings is twofold. Firstly the lack of noisy stupid people in the audience; secondly you aren't trapped - I like to move around, have a cup of tea etc. I'm not into sitting down in silence listening to a whole work through. I'm more likely to play the first 5 mins of, say, Nielsen 2 from the 8 versions I possess.
3) My favourite set of symphonies is Nielsen's - tuneful, masterly orchestration, craftsmanlike, inspiring, original etc etc etc.
4) I admire Simpson's work and his complete symphonies on Hyperion are superb. Epic craftsmanship, lots of forward momentum.
5) Brahms is one of the greats. The trouble with his orchestral work is that it's very middle and bottom heavy so in the wrong hands it sounds dull and thick. I personally put the last movement of Brahms 4 in my top 20 list of symphonic movements.
6) Bruckner. No comment.
7) There is no point 7.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 19, 2012, 06:23:48 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 19, 2012, 12:12:53 AM

We already have John the Inveterate Brucknerhater on this thread...  ;D I don't think the reputation of either Brahms or Bruckner will be in any way affected by the dislike of a GMG'er. The more interesting question to me is: how Calyptorhynchus can consider Brahms' music 'fluff'! It doesn't have epic grandeur, but it isn't 'fluff', either!
Johan. You are a very naughty boy. Last movement of Brahms 4, opening of Brahms 1st Piano Concerto, 1st movement of the fiddle concerto, Alto Rhapsody. Epic, matey, epic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 19, 2012, 06:26:06 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 19, 2012, 05:48:55 AM
Talking about the unloved (or fluff?!!!)! I dug the old Tjeknavorian Khatchaturian recordings of Khatchaturian's Gayaneh (RCA) & the ASV First symphony out of a box a few days ago. Used to love them when I was a youngster (albeit,Tjeknavorian's 1st on RCA). Not so wild about therm these days! Although,the playing on the,so called,'complete' recording of Gayaneh is,admittedly,stunning!

Maybe,I'll settle for Brian's third,instead,or some early Diana Krall! ;D

As to Brahms. I'm not a big fan,but he was a pretty influential composer for a 'bit of fluff'!!!! :o ;D
That's my boy!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 19, 2012, 07:29:42 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 19, 2012, 06:23:48 AM
Johan. You are a very naughty boy. Last movement of Brahms 4, opening of Brahms 1st Piano Concerto, 1st movement of the fiddle concerto, Alto Rhapsody. Epic, matey, epic.


I'd say dramatic and tragic. ('Matey' reminds me of Inspector Morse, he was called that when he was told off by his superior.) For 'epic' you need a large time-scale and something suggestive of great spaces, whether visual or mental. I really think only the opening of the First fits the bill. I remember that I was blown away when I heard it for the very first time, age 15.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 19, 2012, 07:53:47 AM
"Not so wild about THERM,these days!'
It all came out! Khatchaturian is a 'THERM'!
What happened to my multiple edits? :o

Must have another listen to the Brahms symphonies. I remember nearly wearing out the library Lp box set (metaphorcally speaking),when I was a youngster,I played it so much. I Agree totally about the beginning of his 1st & the final movement of No4. It's up there with the 'transition'  (remember I'm just a listener!) in the Gothic.You know it? Between the 3rd & 4th movements. It has that 'epochal' feel about it,that makes you're spine tingle. 'Awesome',as some teenagers might say!!!

York Bowen's Second is another one! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 19, 2012, 09:00:10 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 19, 2012, 07:29:42 AM

I'd say dramatic and tragic. ('Matey' reminds me of Inspector Morse, he was called that when he was told off by his superior.) For 'epic' you need a large time-scale and something suggestive of great spaces, whether visual or mental. I really think only the opening of the First fits the bill. I remember that I was blown away when I heard it for the very first time, age 15.
Quite apt then do you think? ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 19, 2012, 09:02:39 AM
Yes, Master.


* prostrates himself *


;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on January 19, 2012, 09:56:56 AM
I played the timpani in both the Brahms first and second symphonies about ten years ago. The beginning of the first really is epic, sitting behind a set of those dudes.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 19, 2012, 10:08:21 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on January 19, 2012, 09:56:56 AM
I played the timpani in both the Brahms first and second symphonies about ten years ago. The beginning of the first really is epic, sitting behind a set of those dudes.

;)
Are you in the Nigel Thomas class  ;D I got the shock of my life when I saw the violin part for Brahms 1. I've always liked the piece but couldn't believe where the bar lines in the 1st movement were when I saw it. Couldn't play the damn thing cos I couldn't get the way I thought it supposed to go out of my mind. Had to ignore the conductor. Exactly the same in the 2nd movement of Brahms 2 - the cello theme. I didn't realise for years that the timps at the beginning of Zarathustra were triplets. I don't like it as much now that I know! Strange how the dots are written sometimes. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 19, 2012, 10:20:43 AM
Brahms is a master of rhythm. His subtlety in that area is enormous. When you look at a score of his it is riddled with hemiolas.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on January 19, 2012, 12:08:39 PM
You can get a pill for that. Maybe it was something from his misspent youth working down the docks....

Johan, don't you think that the finale of Brahms' Fourth is epic. And not just in its mightier moments. That wonderfully lambent, glowingly mournful central flute solo has a Grecian quality, a kind of ancient classic-Attic poise which actually reminds me strongly - now I think of it - of more than a few moments in Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on January 19, 2012, 12:13:47 PM
Dodgy joking aside, you are of course right about the complexsity and density of Brahms' rhythmical writing He is similar but qualitatively different to Schumann in this respect - less willful and capricious, but just as intricate. Examples about, but some of the most complex are found in the solo piano music, especially the later sets of short pieces from op 76 onwards. There's a C sharp minor one in there which is just incredible in its sophistication. Anyway, we all know this...

Closing another small circle Malcolm Macdonald's Brahms book is, of course, a gem. As in his Brian books, the man turns a phrase and finds an image like few other writers on music. Swafford's book has more meat (though not much) but MM's is th one which sticks in the mind and the soul, I think.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 19, 2012, 12:22:40 PM
Quote from: Luke on January 19, 2012, 12:08:39 PM
Johan, don't you think that the finale of Brahms' Fourth is epic. And not just in its mightier moments. That wonderfully lambent, glowingly mournful central flute solo has a Grecian quality, a kind of ancient classic-Attic poise which actually reminds me strongly - now I think of it - of more than a few moments in Brian.


Hm. Well, I love that movement, of course. It's one of the greatest in the whole of symphonic literature, a perfect blend of form and emotion. That flute solo, by the way, is always taken too slowly, as Erich Leinsdorf rightly says in his book about conducting, The Composer's Advocate. There is no rallentando anywhere near it, but every conductor slows down for that supreme elegiac passage. But - epic? Why I prefer tragic and dramatic to epic is because of the pervasive humanity of Brahms' music. With epic I associate something very wide and deep, that includes the inhuman, the impersonal, the divine, the weird even. The opening of Brahms' First has all the inexorabilty of Fate itself - epic. But the work as a whole isn't.


P.S. I liked your joke about those terrible hemiolas...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on January 19, 2012, 01:09:40 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 19, 2012, 12:22:40 PM

But - epic? Why I prefer tragic and dramatic to epic is because of the pervasive humanity of Brahms' music. With epic I associate something very wide and deep, that includes the inhuman, the impersonal, the divine, the weird even.

I agre - but those adjective describe better than I did precisely how I hear that flute solo: it's exactly why I think of this moment as epic. It has this otherworldly quality, almost as if it is an ancient, divine voice (to use your word). And certainly I think there is something weird about that glowing, intense sonority.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 19, 2012, 01:18:14 PM
Quote from: Luke on January 19, 2012, 01:09:40 PM
I agre - but those adjective describe better than I did precisely how I hear that flute solo: it's exactly why I think of this moment as epic. It has this otherworldly quality, almost as if it is an ancient, divine voice (to use your word). And certainly I think there is something weird about that glowing, intense sonority.


I'll give it some more thought. It is a transcendent moment.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on January 19, 2012, 01:21:21 PM
Come to think of it, there is that same Grecian quality in the unbearably lyrical Nanie, and also in the Gesang der Parzen and Schicksalslied. The coda to the Gesang der Parzen is extraordinary, this hollow, weird sonority of extreme heights and depths (whoever said that Brahms wasn't one of the greatest of orchestrators?), that deepthroated roar, that incredible bleakness. MM talks about this passage in the most awestruck terms, and it is indeed one of Brahms's most prophetic pages, almost like something out of Mahler or even Webern. It seems to me not exactly epic (the piece is too short and complete for that), but to be working in that same region of the 'very wide and deep...including the inhuman, the impersonal, the divine, the weird even'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 19, 2012, 01:31:30 PM
I know the Schicksalslied very well - a great setting of an equally great poem by Hoelderlin. Nänie and Gesang der Parzen I should revisit...


Just to add to my musings about epic: it also includes the warlike, not something I associate with Brahms. When he writes something march-like it is all rather festive (the piano quartet op. 25 springs to mind, and the Academic Festival Overture, of course).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on January 19, 2012, 02:17:18 PM
There's the Truimphlied, of course - explicitly military, that one. And then again some of those piano pieces. The Bardic tones of the very last of the op 118 set  - all swirling harp arabesques under keening melodic lines, which in the central section are assailed by militaristic fanfares and figures (that's another piece which, if it were longer, could veer towards the Epic, perhaps). In its own way the Tragic Overture seems to me to carry echoes of some distant battle too... Hmm, interesting musing potential indeed, Johan!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 19, 2012, 02:22:07 PM
Quote from: Luke on January 19, 2012, 02:17:18 PM
There's the Truimphlied, of course - explicitly military, that one. And then again some of those piano pieces. The Bardic tones of the very last of the op 118 set  - all swirling harp arabesques under keening melodic lines, which in the central section are assailed by militaristic fanfares and figures (that's another piece which, if it were longer, could veer towards the Epic, perhaps). In its own way the Tragic Overture seems to me to carry echoes of some distant battle too... Hmm, interesting musing potential indeed, Johan!


Glad you mention the Tragic Overture, a favorite of mine, because I can now return nicely to the topic of this thread... I have always connected those two powerful chords that punctuate the piece with the two similarly powerful chords in Brian's Eighth.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: thranx on January 21, 2012, 03:06:13 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 13, 2012, 08:28:34 AM
  ;D Actually,I was referring,light heartedly, to the excitement of discovery that Haggard evokes,not the actual quality of the prose,itself! Haggard was a bit of a pioneer in some respects. Nowadays,movies & programmes about people travelling to exotic places are two a penny & we all tend to take turning on the old tv set & seeing such places for granted. Well,some people do! The impact his descriptions of far off places & exotic adventures must have been immense. The Indiana Jones of his day! When I first read Malcolm MacDonald's book as a teenager,I hadn't even heard most of Brian's symphonies. Thus,in it's own different way,to my young mind,Malcolm MacDonald's descriptions of Brian's 3rd,Das Siegeslied or the Seventh,for example were every bit as thrilling & tantalisingly exotic as Haggard's She or King Solomon's Mines.
Incidentally,I personally think there are some passages of great beauty and power in Haggard's best book (arguably),She. But having said that,it's not the kind of prose that would be regarded as subtle (or pc),these days. Purple,is the right word for allot of Haggard's prose,but at his best,he was b***** good at what he did!

I have been reading She,and MM just made me think of that! The sense of discovery & adventure. Not the prose! (rest assured) ;D

Kipling might have been a better example? But it least I didn't compare Malcolm MacDonald to Edgar Rice Burroughs!

You won't tell him really,WILL YOU?!!! :o
                                                                   Yours Sincerely
                                                                    He who must be obeyed!
                                                                    (but not really)

NB: ALL 58?!!! You're book collection is every bit as as epic as you're cd library!

And surely you've seen the 1935 film version of the book, brought to you by the same gentlemen who made KING KONG?  The film is so-so, but the scene with the sabertooth frozen in the ice shows what might have been.  And Helen Douglas's costume, which Disney's artists stole for the garb of the wicked queen in SNOW WHITE.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 22, 2012, 03:24:53 PM
Ha, stirred up a bit of controversy with my remarks about Brahms. Well, if people can say they don't like Bruckner, I can say I don't like Brahms (or any else much written between 1820 and 1900, except Bruckner).

:-)

I've been in HB heaven this weekend listening to the symphonies I hadn't heard before: 5, 13, 14, 19, 21-24, 26-29.

Amazing, my admiration for HB continues to grow. Even though most of the downloads from unsung composers were quite poor in quality, I could still follow the music and found it is most cases as high quality as the other symphonies, but so varied that it added new dimensions to my understanding of HB's impressive versatility.

Symphony 5 was very different from how I imagined it would be, much more 'late-manner'.

Symphonies 13 & 14: I think I'm siding with Malcolm Macdonald's poor opinion here, though these were the worst quality recordings.

The rest were just sublime, I particularly liked 24, 27 and 29, and against MM's strictures I actually liked Stokowski's reading of 28, although I eagerly await a recording of this work played according to MM's interpretation (and recordings of all the unrecorded symphonies).

I've even downloaded HB's Agamemnon and The Tigers, even though I don't normally like opera (down! down!) But I'll have to reread the Agamemnon to follow that opera and see if I can find a synopsis or (even better) libretto of The Tigers.

I found the English Suite No.4 fascinating too. Now the only HB orchestral work I have yet to hear is the Cello Cconcerto, the Dutton disk is winging its way to me at this very moment.

Just as a footnote, I usually agree with MMs views of the symphonies, but I can't see how he thinks the first two movements of HB's 32 are gloomy and tragic. The slow movement has a grim climax in it, but these two movements seem as serene as last two. 32 is my favourite HB symphony I think because of this serenity (I think he knew it was going to be his last), and it's that rare sort of music that sounds like music beyond music, if you know what I mean: often to be found in the late works of the masters, as in Mozart's PC 27 and Clarinet Concerto, Beethoven's late quartets and Simpson's Symphony No.11.

Thanks for putting me on to unsung composers and the other downloads.



cheers all

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on January 22, 2012, 10:26:55 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 22, 2012, 03:24:53 PM
...and it's that rare sort of music that sounds like music beyond music, if you know what I mean: often to be found in the late works of the masters, as in Mozart's PC 27 and Clarinet Concerto, Beethoven's late quartets and Simpson's Symphony No.11.

...Brahms's Chorale Preludes...  ;D  >:D  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 23, 2012, 03:29:41 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 26, 2012, 07:13:14 PM
Another thought about HB: he is often said to have written the longest symphony (the Gothic, obviously), but I haven't heard anyone claim that he also wrote the shortest (post-classical) symphony. Yet I can't think of any symphony written after early Haydn that is shorter than the 9.5 minutes of Symphony No.22!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 26, 2012, 11:01:30 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 26, 2012, 07:13:14 PMYet I can't think of any symphony written after early Haydn that is shorter than the 9.15 minutes of Symphony No.22!

Webern's Symphony op.21 is close...Boulez's DG performance is 9:38.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 27, 2012, 12:47:58 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 26, 2012, 07:13:14 PM
Another thought about HB: he is often said to have written the longest symphony (the Gothic, obviously), but I haven't heard anyone claim that he also wrote the shortest (post-classical) symphony. Yet I can't think of any symphony written after early Haydn that is shorter than the 9.5 minutes of Symphony No.22!
In my house most of Bruckner's symphonies last between 1 and 5 minutes before I take the CDs out of the drive. Does this count? :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Florestan on January 27, 2012, 12:48:37 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 27, 2012, 12:47:58 AM
In my house most of Bruckner's symphonies last between 1 and 5 minutes before I take the CDs out of the drive. Does this count? :D

:D :D :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2012, 03:20:16 AM
Speaking of Symphony 22, the Klassic Haus CD arrived this morning  :)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/Brian22lsso.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 27, 2012, 05:42:45 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2012, 03:20:16 AM
Speaking of Symphony 22, the Klassic Haus CD arrived this morning  :)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/Brian22lsso.jpg)


Sarge
I hope you like it. Review to follow?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2012, 05:43:50 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 27, 2012, 05:42:45 AM
I hope you like it. Review to follow?

I'm playing Symphony 22 now. Just noticed the back cover. You are mentioned.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/brian22backcover.jpg)


(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/brian22backcovercrop.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 27, 2012, 05:53:54 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2012, 05:43:50 AM
I'm playing Symphony 22 now. Just noticed the back cover. You are mentioned.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/brian22backcover.jpg)


(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/brian22backcovercrop.jpg)


Sarge
Yes, I supplied recording session information and photos. The download folder should also include loads of Press Reviews that I sent him. Can you check? I was the donkey, Curt at Classik Haus was the magician who transformed the thing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2012, 06:02:25 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 27, 2012, 05:53:54 AMThe download folder should also include loads of Press Reviews that I sent him. Can you check?

Download folder? What do you mean?

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 27, 2012, 06:07:43 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2012, 06:02:25 AM
Download folder? What do you mean?

Sarge
Sorry Sarge. You bought the disc, not the download. Send me an email and I will respond with the various documents included in the download.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 27, 2012, 06:08:55 AM
Hello, gents! Just to answer John's question - the downloads of the two restored recordings have clippings galore. As for the CDs, I don't know.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2012, 06:14:12 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 27, 2012, 06:08:55 AM
Hello, gents! Just to answer John's question - the downloads of the two restored recordings have clippings galore. As for the CDs, I don't know.

No, they aren't included, unfortunately. There is no booklet; just a single front cover sheet with the original LP back (MacDonald's notes) on the reverse side.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 28, 2012, 08:17:27 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2012, 06:14:12 AM
No, they aren't included, unfortunately. There is no booklet; just a single front cover sheet with the original LP back (MacDonald's notes) on the reverse side.

Sarge
Thanks for your email Sarge. I will dig out all the info and send it tomorrow.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 28, 2012, 08:31:44 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 28, 2012, 08:17:27 AM
Thanks for your email Sarge. I will dig out all the info and send it tomorrow.

Much appreciated.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 28, 2012, 08:39:19 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 28, 2012, 08:31:44 AM
Much appreciated.

Sarge
Change of plan. I just emailed it to you.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 28, 2012, 08:59:28 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 28, 2012, 08:39:19 AM
Change of plan. I just emailed it to you.

Got it. Thanks  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 28, 2012, 04:51:56 PM
A little off topic,I know;but in lieu of his reviews of Havergal Brian cds,it was a nice suprise to see Andrew Clements giving the latest Naxos,Howard Hanson reissue a very warm review,on the Guardian website. Maybe,there's hope for him yet? I was a little suprised,actually. I like Hanson. Not a major composer,I suppose,but what he wrote was well crafted,warm hearted,lyrical & sincere. I like his US twist on Sibelius. In his own way,he's quite an original (but not in the way Bartok is,of course!!!).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on January 28, 2012, 07:25:30 PM
With a hard drive crash awhile back I thought I lost this Havergal Brian album forever... but I just found out that itunes has retroactively added all purchases onto the cloud... will be listening to this album again this week. :)

[asin]B0008JEKF4[/asin]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 29, 2012, 07:57:52 AM
I have been absent as some of you will have noticed, as I am very busy. BUT - today is Havergal Brian's birthday. He turns 136. Let's remember the great man by playing his music!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on January 29, 2012, 12:52:11 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 29, 2012, 07:57:52 AM
I have been absent as some of you will have noticed, as I am very busy. BUT - today is Havergal Brian's birthday. He turns 136. Let's remember the great man by playing his music!
I have never noticed before, but it is also Delius' birthday today; that they shared the same birthday is news to me.

Perhaps there is something to astrology after all! It has to be more than a coincidence that the two composers most reviled english composers (by the cloth eared) share the same star sign, whatever that is.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 29, 2012, 12:56:55 PM
Quote from: Hattoff on January 29, 2012, 12:52:11 PM
I have never noticed before, but it is also Delius' birthday today; that they shared the same birthday is news to me.

Perhaps there is something to astrology after all! It has to be more than a coincidence that the two composers most reviled english composers (by the cloth eared) share the same star sign, whatever that is.


When you look at the Delius thread, you will see that I remembered HIS 150th birthday, too. Delius and Brian are the two composers I love most (distinct from admire, respect et cetera).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 30, 2012, 07:16:48 AM
The Klassic Haus restorations include, as part of the download, a number of press articles and reviews. Here's the folder if anyone would like to read them.

http://www.mediafire.com/?5dhod35t7b4yb
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 30, 2012, 02:26:02 PM
Hey all

Three things:

1.   the Havergal Brian Society, at my suggestion, has put the libretto for the Tigers up in the members' area as a PDF. Now I'll be able to read the libretto before listening to the BBC recording!

2.   My copy of the Dutton recording of the Cello Concerto arrived. Strange 2-disk compilation, I assume they thought they could fit the Brian, and the pieces by York Bowen and Alan Bush on the one disk, then they turned out to be 82 minutes total, doh!
Anyway, I was listening to the Cello Concerto last night. What a piece, completely unlike the symphonies, it's in three movements, all moderately paced with the cello playing more or less continuously. There are moments of drama, but it's a very mellow piece, with a warm brown tone. Marvelous inventiveness in the solo part, how the cello can play almost continuously for about 20 minutes, hardly ever repeating anything and yet make a completely satisfying whole. Also notable is the balance, the orchestra is smaller than HB's usual, but still quite large, but the solo part is so well balanced that it never becomes the cello striving against the orchestra (as in other Cello Concertos). I think this could prove to one of HB's most popular works if he becomes better known. Highly recommended.

3.   I also listened to the BBC recording of Agamemnon recently. What an opera! It lasts about 40 minutes and it's one continuous whirlwind of action. I reckon it would be utterly compelling in the opera house. Funnily enough, because the recording isn't that good and I couldn't make out the words in many passages I was listening to it as a sort of symphony with voices, and that's exactly what it is. The nearest comparison for energy and compression and tragic inevitability I can think of is Janacek's Kat'a Kabanova. But this Brian piece makes Janacek's opera seem leisurely! Also highly recommended.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 30, 2012, 02:42:06 PM
Thanks for your contributions lately, Calyptorhynchus! I have been very busy, so I am rather late reacting.


Like you, I love the Cello Concerto. It is an appealing work and could be quite popular if given half a chance.


You are in agreement with MM in rating Symphonies No. 13 and 14 not very highly - I disagree with both of you... I think they are colourful and strong, with their own very special atmosphere.


I happen to have the Tigers libretto, but it is excellent the HBS has put it up! Good suggestion.


Agamemnon - there are some very powerful moments there, but it would help if you were able to hear exactly what the protagonists are saying/singing, it is a music drama after all.


I am envious you are listening to so many pieces by HB for the first time. I can remember the excitement.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 30, 2012, 06:29:12 PM
I must confess to find it somewhat tedious to be continually reminded that my recording of Agamemnon is not very good :(

Can I respectfully remind you that it was taped on an old reel-to-reel machine back in 1973, ie 39 years ago, in less than satisfactory circumstances. It is incredibly fortunate that the tape survived and has now been made available. The alternative was to have kept the music unheard by anyone but myself.

If someone comes along with a better recording I shall happily withdraw my recording from circulation :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 30, 2012, 08:55:15 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 30, 2012, 06:29:12 PMmy recording of Agamemnon is not very good :(

... and the recording of The Tigers is pretty shoddy ...

::)

... enjoy.

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on January 31, 2012, 12:09:40 AM
That ol' Tigers libretto had been sitting in an old HB odds-and-sods box file for years; so now it's cleaned up and 'out there' again. It still has the corrections I made when the BBC recording was transmitted in 1983!

I'm with Johan on 13 and 14. Ted Downes' premieres of 14 and 21 in 1969 were fine performances of what could turn out to be pivotal symphonies in the canon.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 31, 2012, 12:19:04 AM
Martyn, could you change the Mystery Brian Piece in the Members' Area? I like a challenge.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on January 31, 2012, 01:45:58 AM
I'd almost fogotten about that! Ok, changed, see how you get on.

8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 31, 2012, 01:51:09 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on January 31, 2012, 01:45:58 AM
I'd almost fogotten about that! Ok, changed, see how you get on.

8)


Too easy. I really am a Brian addict - closing bars of the Prologue to Faust.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on January 31, 2012, 06:23:24 AM
Don't get too confident: I was calibrating you to see how difficult I have to make it...

>:D

PS ... and here we are on page 200 of this thread!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 31, 2012, 06:53:27 AM
Happy calibrating then...  8)


Yes - 200 pages. Almost scandalous.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 31, 2012, 07:26:03 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 31, 2012, 06:53:27 AM
Happy calibrating then...  8)


Yes - 200 pages. Almost scandalous.  ;)
.....and at least 50 of them are devoted to Brian :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 31, 2012, 11:28:48 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 31, 2012, 07:26:03 AM
.....and at least 50 of them are devoted to Brian

Your estimate is too conservative.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 31, 2012, 11:35:12 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on January 31, 2012, 06:23:24 AMhere we are on page 200 of this thread!

Quote from: John Whitmore on January 31, 2012, 07:26:03 AM.....and at least 50 of them are devoted to Brian :D

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 31, 2012, 11:28:48 AMYour estimate is too conservative.

Or quite possibly too liberal.

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 31, 2012, 12:18:12 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 30, 2012, 06:29:12 PM
I must confess to find it somewhat tedious to be continually reminded that my recording of Agamemnon is not very good :(

Can I respectfully remind you that it was taped on an old reel-to-reel machine back in 1973, ie 39 years ago, in less than satisfactory circumstances. It is incredibly fortunate that the tape survived and has now been made available. The alternative was to have kept the music unheard by anyone but myself.

If someone comes along with a better recording I shall happily withdraw my recording from circulation :)
I remember part of the excitement,back in my teens/early 20's was listening to dodgy off air cassettes of neglected music,via equally dodgy cassette  recorders (no reel to reel here! :() or in brown paper packages sent via the post. And then there were the Hull Youth SO performances with their wierd strained sounding string section &  h...... out of tune,but I'll be kind because they were young. I was VERY intrigued,but I actually began to wonder whether his early works actually sounded like that! :o Strangely enough,I still prefer their Festal Dance & In Memoriam,to the Naxos performances! Not so sure about the rest! :o

The Forlane set with the Symphonic Dances & Variations from 'The Tiger's' was SO exciting. All these years later,I think the performances still sound wonderful (at least to my ears). The same goes for their Parry 3,still my favourite Parry symphony. Oh,and those enigmatic Foulds pieces. What an inspired recording project that was.

As to Agamemnon,my cassette copy was lousy too! The person who sent me the copy had a friend in the erm,you know,society (nuff said!) & a proper cassette deck! :( :o

Actually,I don't think I should be using the word 'lousy'! Not exactly hi-fi,but pioneering of spirit,perhaps! (Sorry Dundonnell,no offence! ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 31, 2012, 01:30:06 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 31, 2012, 12:18:12 PM
Strangely enough,I still prefer their Festal Dance & In Memoriam,to the Naxos performances! Not so sure about the rest! :o


Doctor Merryheart is good, too, especially the coda, where you get a wonderfully crisp morning atmosphere.

QuoteThe Forlane set with the Symphonic Dances & Variations from 'The Tiger's' was SO exciting. All these years later,I think the performances still sound wonderful (at least to my ears).


They do. Green Pastures, with its close-miked vibraphone, is ravishing.

QuoteAs to Agamemnon,my cassette copy was lousy too! The person who sent me the copy had a friend in the erm,you know,society (nuff said!) & a proper cassette deck! :( :o


I have a cassette copy, too. Colin's is superior...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on January 31, 2012, 04:42:56 PM
I am (slightly) sorry for getting cross about the comments on recording quality of the Brian works I have made available but frankly, until the works in question are recorded properly on cd or someone else can come up with better off-air recordings(either or both of which eventualities I shall be the first to acclaim and applaud :)), we are fortunate to be able to hear the music at all. The alternative is silence :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 31, 2012, 04:54:44 PM
John's possibly in bed,so I'll risk saying,I agree with you Johan,about Dr Merryheart,too! ;D. Their youthful enthusiam & optimism win through,scrapy strings or not! The Naxos performances beat them,hands down in terms of professional musicianship,but to my admittedly,unqualified (I can't play,like John) they sound drab & humourless. Not that they aren't good,but they lack that spark.It's as if they're just going through the motions,another studio session,perhaps.
Youthful ardour,that's it! The music really MEANS something to those young Hull musicians & they're determined to give it their all,which gives the performances that extra 'oomph!',scrapy,out of tune strings or not!
So there,John! ;D.....who is a musician,so I'd better look out! :o

Regarding you're recordings. I certainly have no problem with them,Dundonnell (see above post). They remind me of the 'good old days'! I just wish I'D had a tape recorder like yours,THEN! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 31, 2012, 10:54:27 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 31, 2012, 04:54:44 PM
John's possibly in bed,so I'll risk saying,I agree with you Johan,about Dr Merryheart,too! ;D. Their youthful enthusiam & optimism win through,scrapy strings or not! The Naxos performances beat them,hands down in terms of professional musicianship,but to my admittedly,unqualified (I can't play,like John) they sound drab & humourless. Not that they aren't good,but they lack that spark.It's as if they're just going through the motions,another studio session,perhaps.
Youthful ardour,that's it! The music really MEANS something to those young Hull musicians & they're determined to give it their all,which gives the performances that extra 'oomph!',scrapy,out of tune strings or not!
So there,John! ;D.....who is a musician,so I'd better look out! :o

Regarding you're recordings. I certainly have no problem with them,Dundonnell (see above post). They remind me of the 'good old days'! I just wish I'D had a tape recorder like yours,THEN! :(
I don't rip youth orchestras to bits. Without youth orchestras there will be no future. I also like some of the Hull performances. How the orchestra compares to the National Youth,LSSO, Kent Youth, Essex Youth, London SSO (the top youth ensembles of the 1970s) is neither here nor there but people will make their own judgements using their own ears. At least they had a go and made the music available. The strings are always the issue with school groups and this is where the Hull orchestra do leave a lot to be desired compared to the above list. Youthful commitment quite often outshines bored professionals.There we go -  positive criticism. By the way - despite the general excellence we gave some terrible concerts with the LSSO. You know the sort of thing, a wet Tuesday night in a school hall out in the sticks with an audience of 6 geriatrics, 3 kids and a dog. It's hard to be inspired or bothered all of the time. The smallest audience we ever had was in Copenhagen at a live radio concert. I'll give you a clue. It was just less than 3. I kid you not :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 31, 2012, 10:56:25 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on January 31, 2012, 04:42:56 PM
I am (slightly) sorry for getting cross about the comments on recording quality of the Brian works I have made available but frankly, until the works in question are recorded properly on cd or someone else can come up with better off-air recordings(either or both of which eventualities I shall be the first to acclaim and applaud :)), we are fortunate to be able to hear the music at all. The alternative is silence :(
Take no notice. Let the critics choose silence. Recording quality is neither here nor there.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 31, 2012, 11:03:32 PM
Sorry to go off topic but as a devoted fan of Bruckner I thought this might be of interest.
http://www.klassichaus.us/Garage-Sale-Classics.php
Scroll down to the 3rd item.
Or if you like Tippett, Mathias or Arnold try these two:
http://www.klassichaus.us/index.php
Cheap as chips and very good too. Better than that Hull mob......... ;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 01, 2012, 04:47:44 AM
I downloaded the Sixth Symphony last night. I'm having a Bruckner festival here at home (don't scream, John).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 01, 2012, 06:33:49 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 31, 2012, 10:56:25 PM
Take no notice. Let the critics choose silence. Recording quality is neither here nor there.

Thanks, John :) I appreciate your comment ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 01, 2012, 06:52:52 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 01, 2012, 04:47:44 AM
I downloaded the Sixth Symphony last night. I'm having a Bruckner festival here at home (don't scream, John).
Johan, following my email to you 10 minutes ago I'm trying the slow movement of Bruckner 6 again. You see, I downloaded the Brucker 6 as well. Yes, that's what I said everyone. I downloaded Brucker 6. Having got through the 1st movement without coming to any damage I got as far as  6 minutes into the slow movement and lost the will to live. Luckily a phone call triggered me out of my suicidal leanings. Johan wondered why Bruckner's "music" (cough) was so impenetrable to me and my answer was blunt but straight forward - it's complete and utter rubbish :D Ah that's better. The slow movement has finished. Johan, you say it's sublime. Each to their own and good luck to you. I'm going to put some muisc on now for a treat. I deserve it.
PS The transfer is good despite the symphony. Glad it only cost 2 quid.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 01, 2012, 07:04:01 AM
John and I both connect Bruckner with death, but in a very different way. John almost dies listening to the Adagio of Bruckner's Sixth, whereas I am seriously considering having it played at my funeral (killing all the mourners in the process, as John would undoubtedly add...  ;D  ).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 01, 2012, 07:46:14 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 01, 2012, 07:04:01 AM
John and I both connect Bruckner with death, but in a very different way. John almost dies listening to the Adagio of Bruckner's Sixth, whereas I am seriously considering having it played at my funeral (killing all the mourners in the process, as John would undoubtedly add...  ;D  ).
I hope you have many years ahead of you and the funeral isn't too soon but if this is your plan please strike my name off any potential guest list (or is it a mourners list?).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 01, 2012, 07:56:36 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on February 01, 2012, 07:46:14 AM
I hope you have many years ahead of you and the funeral isn't too soon but if this is your plan please strike my name off any potential guest list (or is it a mourners list?).


I'll inform my daughter (12).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 01, 2012, 08:38:30 AM
Cheerful Charlie Chester's,eh? :o Actually,I have always thought that the second movement of the Gothic would make a very grand and stirring send off for 'yours truly'! It would set the mood nicely for the subsequent party (all two mourners! :()
It would have to be Ole Schmidt,because that's the one I heard first & listened to the most as a youngster,and preferably full blast & hopefully,enough to wake the dead! ;D

Which Brian work would you want at YOU'RE funeral?!!!! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 01, 2012, 08:39:22 AM
I would attend, Johan ;D The Bruckner would certainly not put me off ;D


..........but I suspect that you will outlive me :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 01, 2012, 08:40:31 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 01, 2012, 08:38:30 AM
Cheerful Charlie Chester's,eh? :o Actually,I have always thought that the second movement of the Gothic would make a very grand and stirring send off for 'yours truly'! It would set the mood nicely for the subsequent party (all two mourners! :()
It would have to be Ole Schmidt,because that's the one I heard first & listened to the most,as a youngster,and preferably full blast & hopefully,enough to wake the dead! ;D

Which Brian work would you want at YOU'RE funeral?!!!! :o

No...not HB I am afraid :(  Has to be the closing pages of Mahler's 2nd :) Not that I am expecting to be resurrected ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 01, 2012, 08:46:33 AM
You never know! :o
Janis Joplin has been another considered option. I mean,the singer,not the composer,of course. (I remember my mother asking me if she was related to Scott!!! :o)

Appropriately chosen excerpts from her,'I got dem Ol' Kozmic Blues album,would suit me right down (literally) to the ground! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 01, 2012, 08:47:05 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 01, 2012, 08:38:30 AM
Which Brian work would you want at YOU'RE funeral?!!!! :o


As the Adagio already takes between 17 and 23 minutes, it's just as well Brian is a very concise chap. I think I'd take the closing minutes of Symphony No. 16. I think that's Brian at his granitic best. It would arm me for the battles ahead (if any).


Quote from: Dundonnell on February 01, 2012, 08:40:31 AM
No...not HB I am afraid :(  Has to be the closing pages of Mahler's 2nd :) Not that I am expecting to be resurrected ;D


Stranger things have happened.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 01, 2012, 08:54:50 AM
And,Delius would be 'a walk to the Paradise garden?'

Hopefully?!!! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 01, 2012, 09:03:50 AM
If I DO come back,I'll try & log in here,just to cheer you all up.........in the DEAD of night!!!! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 01, 2012, 09:07:12 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 01, 2012, 09:03:50 AM
If I DO come back,I'll try & log in here,just to cheer you all up.........in the DEAD of night!!!!

Havergal's House of Horror.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on February 01, 2012, 10:31:39 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 01, 2012, 08:54:50 AM
And,Delius would be 'a walk to the Paradise garden?'

Hopefully?!!! :(
You know that the Paradise Garden was a pub?
Sounds ideal, that has to be nirvana.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 01, 2012, 11:26:39 AM
Alternatively,they could just play 'Knees up Mother Brown'!

It was a pub?!!! So,that's what the music is about?!!!! :o

Sorry,that should be,'Knees ap,Muvah Braaahn!'
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 02, 2012, 02:41:30 AM
A quick off topic music related post to all you downloaders of British music out there. Following on from the recent refurbs of the two Brian LPs from the 1970s on Unicorn and CBS, two more interesting titles are now available from the same source in really superb sound.
1) Pye Golden Guinea (stereo) 1967. Tippett conducting his Suite in D, William Mathias conducting his Sinfonietta, Alan Ridout conducting his Concertante Music and the Malcolm Arnold Divertimento conducted by Eric Pinkett.
2) Unicorn (stereo) 1981. Tippett's The Shires Suite conducted by Peter Fletcher and Douglas Young's Virages Region One with Rohan de Saram (cello) conducted by the Composer.
Both recorded in De Montfort Hall. Leicester. Transfer quality very much at the same level as the two Brian LPs if any of you bought them. Very rare LPs beautifully restored. I'm currently working on some Bliss for next month. Will keep you posted.
http://www.klassichaus.us/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 02, 2012, 03:55:32 PM
Hi all

Since I discovered this group and the unsung composers downloads I've been having a more or less continuous Brian-fest.

I've been listing to The Tigers (what an excellent recording that is, you feel that if the BBC could give up the master tapes they could just put it out on CD). I been utterly blown away by it, but I haven't listened to Act Three so I won't comment on it yet.

I have also started listening to the Brian symphonies in order (from 6 onwards, don't have enough time to listen to the earlier ones in one sitting uninterrupted, especially the Gothic). I think then I'll have a much better appreciation of each one. (I'm also sure I'll be able to appreciate nos 13 and 14 more: when I said on first listening I agreed with Malcolm MacDonald's view, I meant that compared to other HB symphonies I didn't find them engaging, a bad symphony by HB (compared to his others) is better than a good symphony by almost anyone else!)

I just wanted to wax lyrical about the Symphony No.6. I listened to this several times last year when the Lyrita disk came out and loved it. I used to make lists of Brian works that could function as a good introduction to his work for people who hadn't heard any of his music (but gave it up after thinking that almost any work of his would do), however, if you were going to do this, what about the 6th symphony, absolutely stark, spare, tragic, lyrical, not a note out of place or too many, overwhelming emotional programme, utterly brilliant!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 03, 2012, 06:04:07 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 02, 2012, 03:55:32 PM
Hi all

Since I discovered this group and the unsung composers downloads I've been having a more or less continuous Brian-fest.

I've been listing to The Tigers (what an excellent recording that is, you feel that if the BBC could give up the master tapes they could just put it out on CD). I been utterly blown away by it, but I haven't listened to Act Three so I won't comment on it yet.

I have also started listening to the Brian symphonies in order (from 6 onwards, don't have enough time to listen to the earlier ones in one sitting uninterrupted, especially the Gothic). I think then I'll have a much better appreciation of each one. (I'm also sure I'll be able to appreciate nos 13 and 14 more: when I said on first listening I agreed with Malcolm MacDonald's view, I meant that compared to other HB symphonies I didn't find them engaging, a bad symphony by HB (compared to his others) is better than a good symphony by almost anyone else!)

I just wanted to wax lyrical about the Symphony No.6. I listened to this several times last year when the Lyrita disk came out and loved it. I used to make lists of Brian works that could function as a good introduction to his work for people who hadn't heard any of his music (but gave it up after thinking that almost any work of his would do), however, if you were going to do this, what about the 6th symphony, absolutely stark, spare, tragic, lyrical, not a note out of place or too many, overwhelming emotional programme, utterly brilliant!
I must say that in a world that admittedly isn't exactly awash with HB recordings I personally think that the Lyrita 6/16 coupling is the best recording available in terms of musicianship, recording quality and musical content. I've just played it through. It's a winner. My main aversion to Brian is the clumsy orchestration (especially the strings) and his habit of throwing the kitchen sink into the mix too often. Sometimes you can't hear the music for the notes. It's a pity he didn't hear his own works live - he never had the opportunity to rethink some passages. No.6 in particular is stark, beautifully scored and logical. It has a Nielsen clarity to it (Nielsen is my favourite symphonist). If more people heard this LP maybe they would change their opinions a wee bit. OK, Brian is uneven but at his best he's a voice worth listening to.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on February 03, 2012, 06:51:56 AM
ok, I surrender.... please make me a member of the HB Thread,... I yield to your all consuming grasp,... hosanna, hosanna

resistance is futile, there is none but Brian

ho-wee, ho-wee-yo!
ho-wee, ho-wee-yo!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 03, 2012, 06:55:52 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on February 03, 2012, 06:51:56 AM
ok, I surrender.... please make me a member of the HB Thread,... I yield to your all consuming grasp,... hosanna, hosanna

resistance is futile, there is none but Brian

ho-wee, ho-wee-yo!
ho-wee, ho-wee-yo!


:o


We can't make you a member. You do that (to) yourself.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on February 03, 2012, 08:32:29 AM
Quotewhat about the 6th symphony, absolutely stark, spare, tragic, lyrical, not a note out of place or too many, overwhelming emotional programme, utterly brilliant!

I entirely agree.......if there were to be only ONE Brian work in this year's Proms, that should be the one! Short enough to not be too taxing for even the most incompetent critic, with a beautiful tune surrounded by HB's usual irascibility!

(In my ideal Proms season - the 6th, 8th, 10th and 16th, together with In Memoriam and - on the last night - the Burlesque Variations!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 03, 2012, 08:34:30 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on February 03, 2012, 08:32:29 AM
(In my ideal Proms season - the 6th, 8th, 10th and 16th, together with In Memoriam and - on the last night - the Burlesque Variations!)


That would be the death of my bank as well as my mental balance.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 03, 2012, 08:53:20 AM
I'd like the third;but the sixth would probably make a better impression on the uncoverted!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 03, 2012, 09:05:50 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 03, 2012, 08:34:30 AM

That would be the death of my bank as well as my mental balance.

You are lucky to have a bank balance ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 03, 2012, 09:09:12 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on February 03, 2012, 09:05:50 AM
You are lucky to have a bank balance ;D


Well, there are times when it gets seriously unhinged, Colin.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 03, 2012, 09:28:13 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on February 03, 2012, 09:05:50 AM
You are lucky to have a bank balance ;D
Everyone has a bank balance. It's just that some are red and others are black.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 03, 2012, 09:32:36 AM
Luckily for me,right now,there's nothing gloomy (musically,or otherwise!) about Brian's music,funeral marches,or not! 'Grim & unsettling' could certainly apply to his twelfth symphony;but then it would be,I suppose. This is definately one work that I won't be listening to before going to bed! :o
The scariest Brian opus in the entire canon,in my humble opinion (Move over Das Siegeslied!*).

*Oops! I shouldn't have mentioned that! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 03, 2012, 09:47:19 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 03, 2012, 09:32:36 AM
Luckily for me,right now,there's nothing gloomy (musically,or otherwise!) about Brian's music,funeral marches,or not! 'Grim & unsettling' could certainly apply to his twelfth symphony;but then it would be,I suppose. This is definately one work that I won't be listening to before going to bed! :o
The scariest Brian opus in the entire canon,in my humble opinion (Move over Das Siegeslied!*).

*Oops! I shouldn't have mentioned that! :(
What's it like?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 03, 2012, 11:06:47 AM
No 12,very compressed & grim! :o
No 4,big & very loud! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 03, 2012, 11:50:12 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on February 03, 2012, 09:28:13 AM
Everyone has a bank balance. It's just that some are red and others are black.

Some are very red ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 04, 2012, 07:59:10 AM
I'll be performing my rendition of 'When icicles hang by the wall',outside Tesco soon!
(I'll be the one in the green overcoat! :o)
An cd player & an oversized family of cds to support. Please give generously!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 04, 2012, 09:15:55 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 05, 2012, 08:50:31 PM
Hello again

Still trying to organise my thoughts on the Tigers, but I thought I post this which I found in e-mail outbox (I wrote it to friend a few years ago trying to the persuade them to listen to Brian):

When I imagine the sound world of Havergal Brian's music I think of a late Victorian medium-sized town on market day. There is a fun fair in full swing. As someone walks through the town they hear snatches of: music from the funfair (several strains of popular music on various instruments), singers (popular and traditional), dance music (popular and traditional), a regimental marching band, the organ playing in the church, people singing hymns in the church, people practising piano or violin in their houses, raucous singing and other types of music from pubs etc etc. Perhaps the listener wanders beyond the town out into the countryside and hears bird-song, or the wind in the trees, or flowing brook.
And then you add in First World War.

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 06, 2012, 10:49:18 AM
I like the way you bring out the Ivesian and Mahlerian sides to Brian, Calyptorhynchus.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 07, 2012, 02:07:20 AM
Just in case you havent' seen it 'folks','The Hurwitz' (as some refer to him) has a review of  the Hyperion release of the 'Gothic' on Classics Today! It's not very long,not exactly deep & apparently we're all mad! ;D
Still,it's (largely) a positive! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 07, 2012, 02:31:17 AM
Thanks for the heads-up. Well, after reading the 'review', I can live with it, though the words 'loony' and crazy' do stand out, as you say...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2012, 02:43:52 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 07, 2012, 02:07:20 AM....apparently we're all mad! ;D

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 07, 2012, 02:31:17 AM
...the words 'loony' and crazy' do stand out, as you say...

The "crazy" ("you'd be crazy to listen to it even once") refers to the applause track only, not the work itself. Has anyone actually listened to all eight minutes and 40 seconds more than once...or even once?  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 07, 2012, 02:45:04 AM
I'm booking myself in right now! ;D Seriously,you don't sound TOO happy. To be fair,that xylophone is pretty wacky,but there's no doubt that,amid all the wackiness,like Berlioz,Brian KNOWS what he's doing. A short & shallow review,though. I wonder why some of these people bother? And,I'm not saying that just because his review annoys me! Which it doesn't! It's reviews like that which made me cancel Gramophone.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 07, 2012, 02:48:30 AM
Just remember to program out the 'Gothic' & put the applause on repeat! Or press the play button & listen to the applause every time you make a cup of tea or get up from you're chair!
You could even applaud the applause! ;D

Which,in the words of Hurwitz himself,was 'well earned'! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2012, 02:56:13 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 07, 2012, 02:45:04 AMA short & shallow review,though.

I agree. His review of the Lenárd Gothic was equally poor. He spent half his words dissing Brian fans. His review of the Boult Gothic was a single short parargraph. Yeah, why bother?

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2012, 02:59:07 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 07, 2012, 02:48:30 AM
Just remember to program out the 'Gothic' & put the applause on repeat!

We should recommend that to James...a forum member who listens almost exclusively (so it seems) to Stockhausen. He'd appreciate the noise  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 07, 2012, 03:12:38 AM
Which begs the question,why did I bother with Hurwitz. Well,partly because he does sometimes have a different point of view than the other critics. He doesn't ALWAYS toe the line. Although,I usually get the feeling,that even then,it's just his egotistical desire for attention,not the fact that he,is any way,an interesting 'critic'.
His observations about Jaqueline du Pre were/are a case in point. I know what he means about all the 'hushed reverence' & the way people go on about her,but she WAS very talented & hey,nobody's perfect....not even Hurwitz! :o ;D
I also rather found myself agreeing with his remarks about 'Gerontius'. I'm not a particularly big fan of that work myself,and I was glad someone felt the way I do,about it. I just wish it didn't have to be Hurwitz! :( Anyway,I'm not saying any more about Gerontius,here,except to say that it's the Barbirolli recording (and Elgar's own,very moving, excerpts,for me!).

If the Gothic was that bad Hyperion would have had to decide whether to include eight minutes of booing and hissing! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 07, 2012, 03:21:39 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2012, 02:59:07 AM
We should recommend that to James...a forum member who listens almost exclusively (so it seems) to Stockhausen. He'd appreciate the noise

Sarge

:-D

I personally contributed to it. It's a concert for hands and 'Bravo!' shouting mouths, and arguably the biggest thing on the disc(s).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on February 07, 2012, 03:24:33 AM
I quite like the Classics Today review....

Describing the Gothic as "visionary, sometimes magnificent, sometimes looney" is just about spot on!

If internet reviews had been around in Berlioz' day, he'd no doubt have been happy with that one!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2012, 03:34:04 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on February 07, 2012, 03:24:33 AM
I quite like the Classics Today review....Describing the Gothic as "visionary, sometimes magnificent, sometimes looney" is just about spot on!

It's not what he said about the Gothic I object too (you're right, it's great description); it's the cursory nature of his review. He has an online review site which doesn't limit him in any way and yet all he can contribute to the discussion are two short paragraphs for a work as immense and rare as the Gothic? He's either lazy or has nothing really to say.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2012, 03:37:17 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 07, 2012, 03:21:39 AM


:-D

I personally contributed to it. It's a concert for hands and 'Bravo!' shouting mouths, and arguably the biggest thing on the disc(s).

Yes, I was particularly taken by your solo, that Dutch-inflected Bravo. It really stood out  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 07, 2012, 03:55:09 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2012, 03:37:17 AM
Yes, I was particularly taken by your solo, that Dutch-inflected Bravo. It really stood out

You're too kind. But yes, I really gave my all. I won't be bettering that performance anytime soon.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 07, 2012, 04:01:30 AM
Encore! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 07, 2012, 05:00:10 AM
As the person standing next to Johan during the eight minutes of applause at the end of the Gothic I can attest to the considerable volume of his 'Bravos' ;D ;D

As a dour Scot I contented myself with as 'thunderous' clapping as I could manage at the expense of rather sore hands. However I should say that as someone who has often deplored the ridiculous propensity of Proms audiences to cheer ecstatically performances which I regarded as only so-so I had no difficulty in demonstating my appreciation of the immense undertaking by conductor, orchestra, soloists and choruses. There was so much riding on them all 'getting it right on the night' and they succeeded triumphantly :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on February 07, 2012, 05:54:34 AM
QuoteIt's not what he said about the Gothic I object too (you're right, it's great description); it's the cursory nature of his review. He has an online review site which doesn't limit him in any way and yet all he can contribute to the discussion are two short paragraphs for a work as immense and rare as the Gothic? He's either lazy or has nothing really to say.

Sarge

Perhaps Hurwitz' attitude to the Gothic is understandable in the light of one of his other reviews, in which he states that:

"Havergal Brian is a much better composer than passing acquaintance with the "Gothic" Symphony suggests. In fact, it's very ironic that Marco Polo's recording of that fascinating but intermittently successful behemoth should be far and away the most successful in the series in terms of popularity; the fact is, virtually all of Brian's subsequent music is better."

In general, Hurwitz seems very pro-Brian; take this review of Symphonies 11 and 15:

"By now you should have a sense of Brian's characteristic sound world. There's the martial music for brass and percussion, his uniquely personal melodic use of xylophone and glockenspiel, those passages of seeming emptiness punctuated by flecks of harp and flute, as well as his love of "low" sounds--tubas, bassoons, double basses, and timpani. The present symphony culminates in a finale of rambunctious abandon; a drum-led dance alternates with slightly parodied waltz music. Really, there's nothing at all difficult about any of this. It just doesn't sound like anyone else. The important thing is that when Brian is really "on", and he seems to be "on" more often than not, he's one of the most interesting and gripping symphonists of the 20th century."

Or this about the Lyrita 6 and 16:

"Both are superb works, and these are fabulous performances. Indeed, this is the finest disc of Brian symphonies ever made, and since it has never appeared on CD before, it's a mandatory acquisition for fans of 20th century British music."

I think he has a valid point - the Gothic has almost been Brian's undoing, its media-worthy excesses have overshadowed most of his later music which is arguably better. (Malcolm Macdonald thought along similar lines; he said something about the Gothic being HB's most crucial and personal work but not necessarily his best.)

IMHO, delighted as I was to hear Brabbins' splendid Gothic, I would not now object if we had to wait another 20 years for a performance, as long as we could get plenty of live performances of Symphonies 6, 8, 10 and 16! (And maybe 3......oh, not forgetting 32 and, yes, 7's pretty good as well....) :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 07, 2012, 06:18:04 AM
Well put ;D

(I would add Nos. 2 and 9 to your list ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 07, 2012, 06:43:03 AM
Definately,No3! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 07, 2012, 07:48:11 AM
And No 5! :)
(That's enough Havergal Brian symphonies for now,ed.!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2012, 11:30:51 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on February 07, 2012, 05:54:34 AM
Perhaps Hurwitz' attitude to the Gothic is understandable....I would not now object if we had to wait another 20 years for a performance, as long as we could get plenty of live performances of....

Quote from: Dundonnell on February 07, 2012, 06:18:04 AM
Well put ;D

Indeed, well put, Klaatu. But I disagree completely. The Gothic is, to me, the most astonishing musical creation I've ever heard, and something I cannot now live without. I love many (most?) of his later creations, too, but if he'd only composed the Gothic, Havergal would still be a god at whose altar I'd worship.

Sarge, Gothic Fan Boy  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 07, 2012, 11:35:49 AM
                                                                   (http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSXfkdcDEUVgHfpatOqqsFFAYJoMreVF2R7E9t8fA5UyKZA8XMBVg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2012, 11:38:18 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 07, 2012, 11:35:49 AM
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSXfkdcDEUVgHfpatOqqsFFAYJoMreVF2R7E9t8fA5UyKZA8XMBVg)

;D :D ;D  ...not quite what I meant though  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 07, 2012, 11:50:49 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2012, 11:38:18 AM
;D :D ;D  ...not quite what I meant though  8)

Sarge


I know... If you rate the Gothic that highly, how does Bruckner at his best compare, and Wagner? I have been immersing myself in their music for the past few weeks, and I am, as always, bowled over by these two gentlemen. I agree, though, that there is a power in Brian's best music I can find nowhere else in that peculiarly concentrated form, something raw and primeval.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 07, 2012, 11:53:06 AM
When Andrew Clements,the Guardian critic,who recently treated the the Hyperion Gothic such a deep,incisive  review ;D,refers to  Hanson's 4th & 5th symphonies (Naxos reissue) as "imposing,economical works that emphasises their debt to Sibelius" there is some ground for hope. When I spotted this review I thought,'Oh no,here we go again!" But was pleasantly suprised by Clements enthusiasm. Not that,I cared about his opinion THAT much,but allot of people read these reviews & Hanson,while not a major composer,was,imho a very skilful one & unfashionably tonal;the kind of composers that newspaper critics seem to dismiss. I personally think that Hanson's musical assimilation of his American and Scandinavian roots was very individual & the Delos Hanson cycle was actually the first complete symphonic cycle I ever bought on cd.
Anyway,back to Brian! ;D
I mean,Brian,Bruckner,Wagner & Gothic rock!!! ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2012, 12:05:19 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 07, 2012, 11:50:49 AM

I know... If you rate the Gothic that highly, how does Bruckner at his best compare, and Wagner? I have been immersing myself in their music for the past few weeks, and I am, as always, bowled over by these two gentlemen. I agree, though, that there is a power in Brian's best music I can find nowhere else in that peculiarly concentrated form, something raw and primeval.

You know Wagner and Bruckner are two-thirds of my musical trinity. That I place the Gothic so highly tells you something. Maybe I'm just enamored with musical giganticism  ;D


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 07, 2012, 04:41:53 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 07, 2012, 11:35:49 AM
                                                                   (http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSXfkdcDEUVgHfpatOqqsFFAYJoMreVF2R7E9t8fA5UyKZA8XMBVg)

Oh My Goodness Gracious Me :o :-X :(

Nothing like Havergal Brian ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on February 07, 2012, 04:46:26 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2012, 02:56:13 AM
I agree. His review of the Lenárd Gothic was equally poor. He spent half his words dissing Brian fans. His review of the Boult Gothic was a single short parargraph. Yeah, why bother?

Sarge

But then, the only Hurwitz reviews I've ever seen, ever, that went over four paragraphs, involve either Simon Rattle or a Mahler 10/10.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 07, 2012, 04:54:49 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2012, 11:30:51 AM
Indeed, well put, Klaatu. But I disagree completely. The Gothic is, to me, the most astonishing musical creation I've ever heard, and something I cannot now live without. I love many (most?) of his later creations, too, but if he'd only composed the Gothic, Havergal would still be a god at whose altar I'd worship.

Sarge, Gothic Fan Boy  ;D

If the stark and unpleasant choice as presented by Klaatu was to forgo the Gothic for another twenty years in return for the regular exposure of the symphonies he mentioned then..yes..I would opt for the latter. Havergal Brian's reputation, his chances of reaching a wider audience and being fully and properly appreciated as a great composer would be better served by the performance of these other works.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on February 07, 2012, 11:40:14 PM
Klaatu's and Dundonnell's points are well-made; regular performances of the other symphonies would be very welcome indeed. Even with all the exposure following the two Gothics (Brisbane and Proms) though, there hasn't yet been a flood of conductors and orchestras wanting to programme Brian symphonies. Maybe if Gergiev would programme one in the same way that he recently performed a Karetnikov symphony at the Barbican ...

Then of course there's always Brabbins' stated intent to be the first conductor to perform the Gothic twice!

I agree with JZH and Sgt Rock about Bruckner (haven't really clicked with Wagner yet; maybe it's all those voices!) but I don't think it's down to gigantism. After all, up to the fifth symphony, his orchestra was that of Brahms and it was only at the fifth that he introduced the bass tuba. It sounds gigantic, but to me, (and love the music or hate it) that's technique. It might be of the monolithic and granitic variety, like a certain other composer to whom this thread is mostly dedicated - but hey, there's nothing wrong with that. Tchaikovsky was often criticised for the inability to develop symphonically and he knew it at the time, so he did it by dint of melodic invention and it works. Bruckner's compositional technique involves an almost geological slowness in the later music that's integral to its long-range planning, but it also works, and more than that it emerged as one of the most radical changes over a symphonic career of the 19th century: from almost Mendelssohn in the F minor study symphony to almost Schoenberg in the ninth.

So HB's time will come, I'm sure. Discussions like those to be found here can do nothing but good  - keep it up!

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on February 08, 2012, 04:52:03 AM
Like the Sarge, I love musical gigantism and I'm a big fan of the Gothic.

But I find the Gothic similar to Mahler's 8th - fully of staggeringly inventive and visionary music but also subject to longeurs and the occasional humdrum passage. His shorter symphonies - 6, 10, 16 especially - seem to be more perfectly realised.

The great thing about Brabbins' Gothic is that it's resulted in a fine recording which will at last allow newcomers to judge the work properly, on its own merits, over the course of repeated listenings. (The latter being essential for a proper appreciation of the work.)

In the concert-hall, the sheer expense of performing the Gothic will always be a problem (although who knows, it might result in an overnight ticket sell-out every time!)

One of his shorter works, performed with passion and understanding, might change this awful "received opinion" of HB as a composer of gargantuan, loopy, unperformable works. If I had to pick one I'd plump for either the 6th (for its lyrical beauty combined with martial excitement) or the 10th (for that haunting "still point", the remarkable storm-episode, and the deeply affecting close.)

Or - why not have the Burlesque Variations on the last night of the Proms; that rabble-rousing finale would bring the house down!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 09, 2012, 05:29:56 AM
Volume 2 of the Toccata releases of Brian's music extracted from the operas gets an enthusiastic 2 column review in the new issue of IRR.

So too does the Dutton release of the Bate/Reizenstein piano concertos. Again, the review(written by Malcolm MacDonald) extends to 2 closely printed columns occupying half a page.
Similar treatment is provided in a review by Martin Anderson of the Kinsella Symphonies Nos. 6 and 7 and this new release is awarded an 'IRR Outstanding' classification and is described as "a knock-out cd" by Anderson.

These are reviews which consider the music concerned in real depth and-once again-point out the contrast with the minimal coverage offered by what now only purport to be 'reviews' published by The Gramophone magazine.

If you want to read in-depth, detailed analyses of the music being reviewed the best place to go now for British readers at least is IRR......and NO I am not on a retainer from the publishers ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 09, 2012, 09:27:06 AM
I just 'found' a performance of the Tenth symphony,conducted by Stanley Pope,on the HBS website. I haven't had time to listen to this just yet,but have not seen any mention of it? Has anyone got an opinion on this,postive or negative?
(Which reminds Mr 'Cassette Man!' I MUST get some more cd-r's!).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2012, 09:28:41 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 09, 2012, 09:27:06 AM
I just 'found' a performance of the Tenth symphony,conducted by Stanley Pope,on the HBS website. I haven't had time to listen to this just yet,but have not seen any mention of it? Has anyone got an opinion on this,postive or negative?
(Which reminds Mr 'Cassette Man!' I MUST get some more cd-r's!).


:o :o :o :o


I'll have a look! And a listen!


It's here:


http://www.havergalbrian.org/download.htm (http://www.havergalbrian.org/download.htm)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2012, 10:29:49 AM
Just listened... This really is a historic recording - the first performance of Symphony No. 10, recorded in 1958, only four years after the work was completed. Stanley Pope had nothing to go on, the idiom was new, the single-movement structure with all the tempo fluctuations was something he had to 'unlock' for himself. I think he does a more than creditable job.


I read along with the score and I noticed that Pope doesn't follow some of Brian's directions, as if he and the orchestra are still getting used to the style... The first few minutes are slow, very slow, even when Brian asks for a slight accelerando or a più vivo (more lively). Loughran is more precise here, and Brabbins even more. The quiet before the storm is very beautifully done and the 'storm scene' proper also comes off very well. But where Pope scores over his rivals is the second half of the symphony. The violin solo is the best I have heard so far, and the martial music that follows it has all the grimness and triumph you could wish for. After that there is a transitional passage (to the Coda), marked espressivo by Brian, which has never been so affecting. And the 'sphinx-like' supernova chord is really mysterious, even better than in the LSSO performance (I wonder, by the way, why it is so difficult for the bass drum to play in time with the timpani - the first stroke on the third beat goes here wrong, too...) The ending is magical.


I am very glad I know this performance now. What a present!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 09, 2012, 11:19:26 AM
I've downloaded it. I was cooking supper so I didn't want to burn it (the food!)....this time,anyway!
I actually clicked on the downloads to 'fill some time',as I thought I had downloaded the music on the HB site before.
I'm going to have to get those cdr's! The pc is upstairs & I can listen more comfortably,then. It sounds like a performance I need to hear.
I've got Sennheiser cordless headphones,but the cheaper,inferior Philips transmitter is attached to the pc! :( I could swap them,but I'm not too keen to muck about at this time of night.
As if to make matters worse,for some reason my stone age pc is having trouble loading the HB website pages on Brian premieres & performances! :(
I was looking up Pope's performances of Brian symphonies & stuff about No 10.

Wait a minute......I've got the book now,haven't I?!!!!! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 09, 2012, 11:23:57 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 09, 2012, 09:27:06 AM
I just 'found' a performance of the Tenth symphony,conducted by Stanley Pope,on the HBS website.

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2012, 09:28:41 AM
It's here:
http://www.havergalbrian.org/download.htm (http://www.havergalbrian.org/download.htm)

Thanks, guys. And thank you, HB Society  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2012, 12:30:11 PM
I can't get over the ending of Symphony No. 10... Those shivering ponticelli strings, that frail violin solo, like a lone voice in a cold immensity, and then - those final chords, as if something takes you under its wings.


Incredibly moving.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 09, 2012, 01:23:46 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2012, 12:30:11 PM
I can't get over the ending of Symphony No. 10... Those shivering ponticelli strings, that frail violin solo, like a lone voice in a cold immensity, and then - those final chords, as if something takes you under its wings.


Incredibly moving.
Agreed. Excellent music at a much higher level ever reached by that clown Bruckner ;) I will have a listen to the new download.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2012, 01:28:03 PM
Good to see your undying love for Anton...  ;D  And yes, do listen, and see for yourself how Pope's reading compares with Loughran's and Brabbins'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 09, 2012, 01:38:15 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2012, 01:28:03 PM
Good to see your undying love for Anton...  ;D  And yes, do listen, and see for yourself how Pope's reading compares with Loughran's and Brabbins'.
Didn't get past the first bar. The recording is a quarter tone flat which has the knock on effect of slowing the damn thing down. I'll have a mess with it tomorrow to see if I can correct the pitch.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2012, 01:43:42 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on February 09, 2012, 01:38:15 PM
Didn't get past the first bar. The recording is a quarter tone flat which has the knock on effect of slowing the damn thing down. I'll have a mess with it tomorrow to see if I can correct the pitch.


Really? When I play the three openings I can't hear any difference.


Later: I think you're right. I used http://www.thevirtualpiano.com/ (http://www.thevirtualpiano.com/) to check (I don't have perfect pitch).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 09, 2012, 01:59:03 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2012, 01:43:42 PM

Really? When I play the three openings I can't hear any difference.


Later: I think you're right. I used http://www.thevirtualpiano.com/ (http://www.thevirtualpiano.com/) to check (I don't have perfect pitch).
You can borrow mine. No - you can have it. It's a totally useless thing to be lumbered with.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2012, 02:03:04 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on February 09, 2012, 01:59:03 PM
You can borrow mine. No - you can have it. It's a totally useless thing to be lumbered with.


Poor you... But work your magic if you can. Perhaps the corrected file could replace the 'faulty'one... But that's a matter for Martyn and the HBS.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 09, 2012, 02:29:43 PM
I've corrected the pitch. It's still very wobbly so I guess it's from a low quality tape recorder. I've not listened to it yet but the first few seconds are very flat footed. Not just a tempo issue, more about the actual attack etc. Will listen to it tomorrow. This is still my favourite Brian symphony just ahead of the 4th ;)
Here's the link
http://www.mediafire.com/?u9snf2f9yh97992
It's really amazing how many commercial recordings are issued slighty off pitch. There are loads of them. I save the wavs and tweak them and remake the CDs so it doesn't drive me too bonkers. I really must get a life..........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2012, 02:31:51 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on February 09, 2012, 02:29:43 PM
I've corrected the pitch. It's still very wobbly so I guess it's from a low quality tape recorder. I've not listened to it yet but the first few seconds are very flat footed. Not just a tempo issue, more about the actual attack etc. Will listen to it tomorrow. This is still my favourite Brian symphony just ahead of the 4th ;)
Here's the link
http://www.mediafire.com/?u9snf2f9yh97992 (http://www.mediafire.com/?u9snf2f9yh97992)
It's really amazing how many commercial recordings are issued slighty off pitch. There are loads of them. I save the wavs and tweak them and remake the CDs so it doesn't drive me too bonkers. I really must get a life..........


I agree the opening is too slow (the score says crotchet=60). I'll give the 'new' version a listen. Thank you for your current life.  ;D


P.S.: I suddenly wonder how this works copyright-wise. But neither you nor I are making any money out of this...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 09, 2012, 06:34:00 PM
John W "It's really amazing how many commercial recordings are issued slighty off pitch. "

If they're consistently off-pitch, surely it doesn't matter? You musn't like early music!

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 09, 2012, 10:47:15 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 09, 2012, 06:34:00 PM
John W "It's really amazing how many commercial recordings are issued slighty off pitch. "

If they're consistently off-pitch, surely it doesn't matter? You musn't like early music!

;)
Of course it matters. They are usually off pitch because the tape is running slow which drops the pitch and lengthens the timing of the music. When my ears tell me that it's not in tune I can't listen to it. Orchestras tune up for a reason. Like many other people I do have issues with piano music because, for example, there's one key on the keyboard for F sharp and G flat when in reality they are two different notes. Pianos are tempered (nice compromise) but never sound truly in tune. Trust me, I'm a doctor (No I'm not, I made that bit up). Early music - not my cup of tea but that's a mixture of pitch, musical content and the instruments used. Small doses at a pinch but I can't get too much enjoyment out of it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on February 09, 2012, 11:36:00 PM
Wow, well-spotted, John! Like Johan, I don't have perfect pitch (what, a percussionist without perfect pitch?!) and hadn't detected the slight flatness. The opening sounds very similar to my ears actually, but it makes a clear difference in the shining chord at the close. In the melting-pot of analogue vs. digital, I suppose this is one advantage of digital in that although you can get artefacts, pitch variations, wow and flutter aren't among them. I'll replace the current version on the website with yours if you're in agreement.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 10, 2012, 12:01:03 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on February 09, 2012, 11:36:00 PM
Wow, well-spotted, John! Like Johan, I don't have perfect pitch (what, a percussionist without perfect pitch?!) and hadn't detected the slight flatness. The opening sounds very similar to my ears actually, but it makes a clear difference in the shining chord at the close. In the melting-pot of analogue vs. digital, I suppose this is one advantage of digital in that although you can get artefacts, pitch variations, wow and flutter aren't among them. I'll replace the current version on the website with yours if you're in agreement.

;)
I'm in full agreement but do I win some sort of prize? Do you have a higher quality version for me to tweak? Messing with MP3s reduces the quality further. Happy to do it again from a better source file.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 10, 2012, 12:12:31 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2012, 10:29:49 AM
Just listened... This really is a historic recording - the first performance of Symphony No. 10, recorded in 1958, only four years after the work was completed. Stanley Pope had nothing to go on, the idiom was new, the single-movement structure with all the tempo fluctuations was something he had to 'unlock' for himself. I think he does a more than creditable job.


I read along with the score and I noticed that Pope doesn't follow some of Brian's directions, as if he and the orchestra are still getting used to the style... The first few minutes are slow, very slow, even when Brian asks for a slight accelerando or a più vivo (more lively). Loughran is more precise here, and Brabbins even more. The quiet before the storm is very beautifully done and the 'storm scene' proper also comes off very well. But where Pope scores over his rivals is the second half of the symphony. The violin solo is the best I have heard so far, and the martial music that follows it has all the grimness and triumph you could wish for. After that there is a transitional passage (to the Coda), marked espressivo by Brian, which has never been so affecting. And the 'sphinx-like' supernova chord is really mysterious, even better than in the LSSO performance (I wonder, by the way, why it is so difficult for the bass drum to play in time with the timpani - the first stroke on the third beat goes here wrong, too...) The ending is magical.


I am very glad I know this performance now. What a present!!
Maybe it's because percussionists are thick? No offence to our esteemed webmaster of course.....................
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 10, 2012, 01:47:43 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on February 10, 2012, 12:12:31 AM
Maybe it's because percussionists are thick? No offence to our esteemed webmaster of course.....................
Probably depends where the instruments are located. I'e seen setups where the timpini and bass are next to each others. But I have seen other setups where there is a fair distance between them with other instruments in between. Of course, they could just be thick... :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 10, 2012, 03:33:00 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 10, 2012, 01:47:43 AM
Probably depends where the instruments are located. I'e seen setups where the timpini and bass are next to each others. But I have seen other setups where there is a fair distance between them with other instruments in between. Of course, they could just be thick... :)
There's a bloke on the podium waving a stick. Distance between instruments is no excuse. Three possible scenarios here: 1) The beat from the conductor isn't clear. 2) The players aren't watching 3) The percussionists are thick  ;D My bet is still on 3).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 10, 2012, 03:39:48 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on February 10, 2012, 03:33:00 AM
There's a bloke on the podium waving a stick. Distance between instruments is no excuse. Three possible scenarios here: 1) The beat from the conductor isn't clear. 2) The players aren't watching 3) The percussionists are thick  ;D My bet is still on 3).
Well, you are right they should be watching the conductor. On the other hand, if you hear one thing and see another, it can be difficult to pick the right course. So if the conductor is setting a tempo, but you hear something different, because the sound is taking time to get to you, you may be off. Of course, as professionals, this should not really be the case, but it happens.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 10, 2012, 03:43:54 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2012, 01:28:03 PM
Good to see your undying love for Anton...  ;D  And yes, do listen, and see for yourself how Pope's reading compares with Loughran's and Brabbins'.
Just listened to it. If it wasn't so wretchedly slow it would be the best performance. Great technical playing, hangs together superbly BUT it sounds like a rehearsal. It clocks in at 20'30'' compared to the LSSO at 18'. That's 14% longer for a short work lasting less than 20 minutes. You would just about get away with a 14% difference on a work lasting for a couple of hours but this is ridiculous. I've enjoyed hearing it but there is a disastrous lack of drive and momentum about it. Maybe if I tweak it back to 18 mins it would sound fabulous and take pride of place. No, that's taking cheating way too far............
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 10, 2012, 03:51:49 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 10, 2012, 03:39:48 AM
Well, you are right they should be watching the conductor. On the other hand, if you hear one thing and see another, it can be difficult to pick the right course. So if the conductor is setting a tempo, but you hear something different, because the sound is taking time to get to you, you may be off. Of course, as professionals, this should not really be the case, but it happens.
What?? You watch the conductor full stop. You can only hear the players in the vicinity of where you sit. At the back of the 2nds sitting front of the horns you hear yourself and a load of very loud horns down the back of your neck. The only way you can stay together with the players 20 yards away is to watch. If you didn't pay attention to the likes of Reiner and Szell for every millisecond you would be humiliated and probably wouldn't stay in employment for too long. Metronomes set tempi. Conductors phrase and with some of them there are barely two bars in the same tempo.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: The new erato on February 10, 2012, 04:43:57 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on February 09, 2012, 05:29:56 AM
Volume 2 of the Toccata releases of Brian's music extracted from the operas gets an enthusiastic 2 column review in the new issue of IRR.

So too does the Dutton release of the Bate/Reizenstein piano concertos. Again, the review(written by Malcolm MacDonald) extends to 2 closely printed columns occupying half a page.
Similar treatment is provided in a review by Martin Anderson of the Kinsella Symphonies Nos. 6 and 7 and this new release is awarded an 'IRR Outstanding' classification and is described as "a knock-out cd" by Anderson.

These are reviews which consider the music concerned in real depth and-once again-point out the contrast with the minimal coverage offered by what now only purport to be 'reviews' published by The Gramophone magazine.

If you want to read in-depth, detailed analyses of the music being reviewed the best place to go now for British readers at least is IRR......and NO I am not on a retainer from the publishers ;D ;D
A superb magazine and well worth anybodys money, as I've pointed out a number of times. Interesting to note that Julian Haylock, a quite recent editor of the substandard Gramophone IIRC, now writes for IRR.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 10, 2012, 07:57:26 AM
In this age of 'dumbing down',IRR Magazine is a rare example of a Magazine intellectualising it's content!
Mine's still in the post! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 11, 2012, 12:03:10 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on 10-02-2012, 13:43:54 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg600343#msg600343)
Just listened to it. If it wasn't so wretchedly slow it would be the best performance. Great technical playing, hangs together superbly BUT it sounds like a rehearsal. It clocks in at 20'30'' compared to the LSSO at 18'. That's 14% longer for a short work lasting less than 20 minutes. You would just about get away with a 14% difference on a work lasting for a couple of hours but this is ridiculous. I've enjoyed hearing it but there is a disastrous lack of drive and momentum about it. Maybe if I tweak it back to 18 mins it would sound fabulous and take pride of place. No, that's taking cheating way too far............



I think you're right, but only for the first half. In the second half the performance loses its character of a rather tentative-sounding playthrough and really takes off. Still, this is a recording of prime importance.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 11, 2012, 02:20:36 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 11, 2012, 12:03:10 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on 10-02-2012, 13:43:54 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg600343#msg600343)
Just listened to it. If it wasn't so wretchedly slow it would be the best performance. Great technical playing, hangs together superbly BUT it sounds like a rehearsal. It clocks in at 20'30'' compared to the LSSO at 18'. That's 14% longer for a short work lasting less than 20 minutes. You would just about get away with a 14% difference on a work lasting for a couple of hours but this is ridiculous. I've enjoyed hearing it but there is a disastrous lack of drive and momentum about it. Maybe if I tweak it back to 18 mins it would sound fabulous and take pride of place. No, that's taking cheating way too far............



>I think you're right, but only for the first half. In the second half the performance loses its character of a rather tentative-sounding playthrough and really takes off. Still, this is a recording of prime importance.

Sounds like a typical home performance by my beloved Leicester City.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 11, 2012, 02:27:22 AM
A short but very fair review of the Gothic in the BBC Music Magazine. I agree with what the reviewer, Malcolm Hayes, has to say. Great sound, great sense of atmosphere, great playing. The work has it's poorer patches but loads of good patches. Choral entries a bit approximate at times in Judex. His summary: Memorable listening indeed. Recording 5 stars, performance 4 stars (singing lost a star, how bloody typical).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 11, 2012, 03:07:51 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2012, 01:28:03 PM
Good to see your undying love for Anton...  ;D  And yes, do listen, and see for yourself how Pope's reading compares with Loughran's and Brabbins'.
I've just received an email from Martyn. He will send me the original FLAC of the flat sounding HB 10, I will make the appropriate changes and reupload it as a high quality MP3. Martyn will then replace the old one on the HBS website. Should be early next week sometime. I'll keep you posted.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 11, 2012, 03:48:38 AM
Excellent! Long live Leicester City.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 11, 2012, 09:04:33 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 11, 2012, 03:48:38 AM
Excellent! Long live Leicester City.
City 2 Cardiff 1  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 11, 2012, 09:10:11 AM
Don't tell cilgwyn.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 11, 2012, 10:44:19 AM
Away from the football and listen to some really great and truly awe-inspiring music: Miloslav Kabelac's Passacaglia for large symphony orchestra "The Mystery of Time"(posted in my new Kabelac thread) ;D ;D

I reckon old Havergal would have appreciated it :) Janacek certainly would ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 11, 2012, 10:48:35 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on Today at 20:44:19 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg600657#msg600657)
Away from the football and listen to some really great and truly awe-inspiring music:
Miloslav Kabelac's Passacaglia for large symphony orchestra "The Mystery of Time"(posted in my new Kabelac thread) ;D ;D

I reckon old Havergal would have appreciated it :) Janacek certainly would ;D ;D



I like the passacaglia form... I'll have a look. (Did you listen to the Pope Tenth?!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 11, 2012, 11:21:54 AM
I shall try :)

So much new music....so little time to listen to it all :( :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 11, 2012, 11:48:18 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on February 11, 2012, 11:21:54 AM
I shall try :)

So much new music....so little time to listen to it all :( :D
Use this link. At least it's in C minor rather than B and three quarters minor.
http://www.mediafire.com/?u9snf2f9yh97992
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 11, 2012, 01:44:58 PM
Thanks, John :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 12, 2012, 05:16:13 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on February 11, 2012, 01:44:58 PM
Thanks, John :)
You are very welcome. Here's my comparative review. It may, of course, be a spoof and it may, of course, have been written with tongue firmly in both cheeks but you should decide:
"The LSSO version is the best by far. It has a sense of discovery and manace about it and in general the orchestral playing is good enough to pull it off. It has that edge of the seat quality usually only present in live performances. Brabbins secures wonderful playing at a higher level, of course, but there is a lack of atmosphere, thrust and danger about many parts of the work, especially the very tame storm section. This may be partly due to the warm acoustic which places the brass section too far back. The finest technical playing of the three available versions is by the Philharmonia at it's peak but the slow tempi are debilitating  - much of the performance sounds like a tentative rehearsal run through - so this is really only for aficionados with an interest in historic performances. The recording in the unusual key of B and three quarters minor adds a very strange twist to a somewhat eccentric reading of the score. The highlight is Hugh Bean's beautifully crafted violin solo which is superb."
Should I work for The Gramophone? I'm good enough aren't I?.:D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2012, 05:21:58 AM
It's IRR material.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 12, 2012, 06:52:49 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2012, 05:21:58 AM
It's IRR material.
High praise indeed from the Netherlands. Next contestant please.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 12, 2012, 10:34:05 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on February 12, 2012, 05:16:13 AM
You are very welcome. Here's my comparative review. It may, of course, be a spoof and it may, of course, have been written with tongue firmly in both cheeks but you should decide:
"The LSSO version is the best by far. It has a sense of discovery and manace about it and in general the orchestral playing is good enough to pull it off. It has that edge of the seat quality usually only present in live performances. Brabbins secures wonderful playing at a higher level, of course, but there is a lack of atmosphere, thrust and danger about many parts of the work, especially the very tame storm section. This may be partly due to the warm acoustic which places the brass section too far back. The finest technical playing of the three available versions is by the Philharmonia at it's peak but the slow tempi are debilitating  - much of the performance sounds like a tentative rehearsal run through - so this is really only for aficionados with an interest in historic performances. The recording in the unusual key of B and three quarters minor adds a very strange twist to a somewhat eccentric reading of the score. The highlight is Hugh Bean's beautifully crafted violin solo which is superb."
Should I work for The Gramophone? I'm good enough aren't I?.:D
I think you'd frighten the life out of them! ;D
More,please! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 12, 2012, 03:26:27 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on February 12, 2012, 05:16:13 AM
You are very welcome. Here's my comparative review. It may, of course, be a spoof and it may, of course, have been written with tongue firmly in both cheeks but you should decide:
"The LSSO version is the best by far. It has a sense of discovery and manace about it and in general the orchestral playing is good enough to pull it off. It has that edge of the seat quality usually only present in live performances. Brabbins secures wonderful playing at a higher level, of course, but there is a lack of atmosphere, thrust and danger about many parts of the work, especially the very tame storm section. This may be partly due to the warm acoustic which places the brass section too far back. The finest technical playing of the three available versions is by the Philharmonia at it's peak but the slow tempi are debilitating  - much of the performance sounds like a tentative rehearsal run through - so this is really only for aficionados with an interest in historic performances. The recording in the unusual key of B and three quarters minor adds a very strange twist to a somewhat eccentric reading of the score. The highlight is Hugh Bean's beautifully crafted violin solo which is superb."
Should I work for The Gramophone? I'm good enough aren't I?.:D

Excellent review..........but I am puzzled by the reference to "a sense of discovery and manace" ??? ;D  Obviously I need to look harder to discover the hidden "manace"-a quality in Brian's music which had totally escaped me ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 13, 2012, 01:39:49 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on February 12, 2012, 03:26:27 PM
Excellent review..........but I am puzzled by the reference to "a sense of discovery and manace" ??? ;D  Obviously I need to look harder to discover the hidden "manace"-a quality in Brian's music which had totally escaped me ;D ;D
That's what we reviewers do you see. I've whetted your appetite to dig deeper. Brian is a very menacing chap. I should have done this sort of stuff years ago.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 13, 2012, 03:51:13 AM
Brian's manacing qualities are right up my stroot! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 13, 2012, 07:21:15 AM
I have just tried unsuccessfully to download the Schwarz recording of the Eighth Symphony from the HB website.

Is there a problem with the file?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 13, 2012, 07:25:01 AM
Strange.


It's Martyn's birthday, so I don't think he will be here anytime soon (though I could be mistaken). Shall I upload it for you?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 13, 2012, 07:48:15 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 13, 2012, 07:25:01 AM
Strange.


It's Martyn's birthday, so I don't think he will be here anytime soon (though I could be mistaken). Shall I upload it for you?

That would be most helpful :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 13, 2012, 07:58:13 AM
Voilà, Colin!


http://www.mediafire.com/?ua1drkqa6x0awbg (http://www.mediafire.com/?ua1drkqa6x0awbg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 13, 2012, 10:25:45 AM
Many thanks :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 13, 2012, 11:04:58 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 13, 2012, 07:58:13 AM
Voilà, Colin!


http://www.mediafire.com/?ua1drkqa6x0awbg (http://www.mediafire.com/?ua1drkqa6x0awbg)
It's in the right key so that's a start.............
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on February 13, 2012, 11:05:10 AM
Seems to be a site problem rather than the file. I'll get onto the host.

Cheers.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 13, 2012, 11:09:51 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on February 13, 2012, 11:05:10 AM
Seems to be a site problem rather than the file. I'll get onto the host.

Cheers.

;)
1) Happy birthday
2) Where's the HB 10 FLAC
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 13, 2012, 11:39:28 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on February 13, 2012, 11:05:10 AM
Seems to be a site problem rather than the file. I'll get onto the host.

Cheers.

;)

The Newstone 12th downloaded ok :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 14, 2012, 07:35:57 AM
Getting ready to listen to this Pope tenth,tonight! :)
After some more Gilbert & Sullivan!!!
(I'm on the hard stuff,now! :o)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 14, 2012, 07:49:18 AM
Pope may take it slowly, but it's still an impressive performance. Remember I was so moved by the espressivo passage just preceding the 'sphinx-like' chord? The tempo there must be the same as the opening - if Pope had taken the opening quicker, the whole effect of the espressivo would have been ruined...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 15, 2012, 02:35:01 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 14, 2012, 07:49:18 AM
Pope may take it slowly, but it's still an impressive performance. Remember I was so moved by the espressivo passage just preceding the 'sphinx-like' chord? The tempo there must be the same as the opening - if Pope had taken the opening quicker, the whole effect of the espressivo would have been ruined...
That's not really an excuse for such a slow, earth bound and tentative opening though is it?  The start of this symphony should be a call to action. A brilliant opening that immediately grabs you by the scruff of the neck and makes you pay attention.  Pope does the opposite. The dynamism of the phrase just falls apart. It barely hangs together at all (In the same way that Bernstein destroyed Enigma when the BBC SO fell out with him big time some years ago). Pope drives me to reach out for the Horlicks jar :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2012, 02:47:39 AM
Since writing that, I have been thinking about the whole issue some more. So I agree with you, John. The opening should be electrifying. Brian's marking is 'Adagio, crotchet = 60'. There seems to be a clash there - on the one hand you want to bring out the demisemiquavers, on the other hand you want the music to have momentum. The LSSO does it best, I think. As for the espressivo - now that I have heard Pope, I don't want it any different anymore, even if it makes the passage inconsistent with the opening tempo.


This article today is very apposite:


http://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/shaping-the-invisible/a-composers-conduct (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/shaping-the-invisible/a-composers-conduct)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 15, 2012, 04:48:20 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2012, 02:47:39 AM
Since writing that, I have been thinking about the whole issue some more. So I agree with you, John. The opening should be electrifying. Brian's marking is 'Adagio, crotchet = 60'. There seems to be a clash there - on the one hand you want to bring out the demisemiquavers, on the other hand you want the music to have momentum. The LSSO does it best, I think. As for the espressivo - now that I have heard Pope, I don't want it any different anymore, even if it makes the passage inconsistent with the opening tempo.


This article today is very apposite:


http://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/shaping-the-invisible/a-composers-conduct (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/shaping-the-invisible/a-composers-conduct)

The article you linked is very relevant to the mention of tempi in relation to the Malcolm Arnold symphonies recently. When he came to conduct his Seventh Symphony for the BBC Arnold slowed the symphony right down from his original tempo markings. This exasperated the reviewers (the performance is not on cd) but are Arnold's second thoughts valid or not ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2012, 11:40:41 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on February 15, 2012, 04:48:20 AM
The article you linked is very relevant to the mention of tempi in relation to the Malcolm Arnold symphonies recently. When he came to conduct his Seventh Symphony for the BBC Arnold slowed the symphony right down from his original tempo markings. This exasperated the reviewers (the performance is not on cd) but are Arnold's second thoughts valid or not ???


If they clearly ruin the music, ignore the composer.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 15, 2012, 11:58:18 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2012, 02:47:39 AM
Since writing that, I have been thinking about the whole issue some more. So I agree with you, John. The opening should be electrifying. Brian's marking is 'Adagio, crotchet = 60'. There seems to be a clash there - on the one hand you want to bring out the demisemiquavers, on the other hand you want the music to have momentum. The LSSO does it best, I think. As for the espressivo - now that I have heard Pope, I don't want it any different anymore, even if it makes the passage inconsistent with the opening tempo.
My faith in your hearing and judgement are both restored.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2012, 11:59:16 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on Today at 21:58:18 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg601775#msg601775)
My faith in your hearing and judgement are both restored.



Phew!  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 15, 2012, 12:42:18 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2012, 11:40:41 AM

If they clearly ruin the music, ignore the composer.  ;D

That is an astonishingly controversial statement, Johan :o

Surely if Malcolm Arnold, or any other composer. with the ability to conduct (in the sense of being able to communicate his intentions to the orchestra and get them to follow his instructions) choses to render his composition as he wishes it to sound then that is the composition. It may represent a considerable revision of the score in that the original tempo markings have been amended or even ignored but can one then say that the music has been 'ruined' ??? Surely it is now perhaps a different piece, even perhaps, in one's judgment, an inferior piece but has the original been 'ruined' ???

Hmmm....I don't know, I wonder....or is this just semantics ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2012, 12:49:01 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on Today at 22:42:18 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg601782#msg601782)
That is an astonishingly controversial statement, Johan :o



I seem to remember that Malcolm Arnold's later years were marred by a drink problem (?) If he wasn't in complete possession of his faculties when he made the decision to change the tempo, I think a conductor would be right to defend the composer against himself... I wish we could hear both versions!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 15, 2012, 01:31:38 PM
Elgar's recordings of himself conducting several of his works show many divergences from the published scores in the matter of tempi, volume, phrasing &c...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2012, 01:35:11 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on Today at 23:31:38 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg601805#msg601805)
Elgar's recordings of himself conducting several of his works show many divergences from the published scores in the matter of tempi, volume, phrasing &c...



That's perfect by me, if the music sounds natural.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 15, 2012, 01:40:33 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2012, 12:49:01 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on Today at 22:42:18 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg601782#msg601782)
That is an astonishingly controversial statement, Johan :o



>I seem to remember that Malcolm Arnold's later years were marred by a drink problem (?) If he wasn't in complete possession of his faculties when he made the decision to change the tempo, I think a conductor would be right to defend the composer against himself... I wish we could hear both versions!

Correct. The main problem being the pubs closing at 10.30 at night.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 15, 2012, 02:30:00 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2012, 12:49:01 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on Today at 22:42:18 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg601782#msg601782)
That is an astonishingly controversial statement, Johan :o



I seem to remember that Malcolm Arnold's later years were marred by a drink problem (?) If he wasn't in complete possession of his faculties when he made the decision to change the tempo, I think a conductor would be right to defend the composer against himself... I wish we could hear both versions!


We have been here before and I am loathe to go into a detailed analysis of an Arnold symphony in a thread, ostensibly at least, devoted to Havergal Brian.

.......but, to be brief, the Rumon Gamba/Chandos version of the Arnold 7th clocks in at just under 32 minutes, the Vernon Handley/Conifer at just under 38 minutes(I haven't heard the Andrew Penney/Naxos reading). Arnold in his 1977 performance of the work takes just over 50 minutes.

Now that is quite astonishing: Arnold takes almost twice as long to conduct his own symphony as Rumon Gamba :o

Was he so affected by alcoholism and mental problems as to cripple his own symphony, composed four years before ??? I don't know.

(You can hear it, Johan....you know where ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 15, 2012, 03:33:40 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on Today at 00:30:00 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg601825#msg601825)
We have been here before and I am loathe to go into a detailed analysis of an Arnold symphony in a thread, ostensibly at least, devoted to Havergal Brian.

.......but, to be brief, the Rumon Gamba/Chandos version of the Arnold 7th clocks in at just under 32 minutes, the Vernon Handley/Conifer at just under 38 minutes(I haven't heard the Andrew Penney/Naxos reading). Arnold in his 1977 premiere of the work takes just over 50 minutes.

Now that is quite astonishing: Arnold takes almost twice as long to conduct his own symphony as Rumon Gamba :o

Was he so affected by alcoholism and mental problems as to cripple his own symphony, composed four years before ??? I don't know.

(You
can hear it, Johan....you know where ;D )



I don't mind veering off to another symphonist for a few posts, and neither would Havergal, the man of the apparent non-sequitur... (I took the hint.  8)   Listening to the opening minutes, and not being able to see a score nor compare the performance, the music doesn't sound laboured or slow...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on February 16, 2012, 02:52:32 AM
Re Arnold - I saw him a few times in his later years (and I mean semi-socially, not as a performer - he lived near me, and my ex-wife used to play in a local youth orchestra with which he had associations and whose functions he sometimes attended). He certainly didn't look in full control at all imes, but he was getting on in years by this point. But more than that, his whole demeanour was that of someone alive, passionate, someone less concerned with re-creation than with recreation (see what I did there?!  ;D  ). My own reading of this issue, then, would be that whilst listeners, critics, conductors, all tend to get very concerned with the minutiae of these things - tempo choices, dynamics etc. - from performance to performance and recording to recording, to some composers (and I have a feeling Arnold would have been of this type) they are can be fairly loose and unimportant, and shouldn't be put before the expressive power of the piece itself - on the night, the piece leads where it will, the precise detail of the markings follows and gives way.

The markings in a score - in a score of the Arnold type, anyway (I have a few of his symphonies in score) - are not so detailed and presriptive as in e.g. Mahler; they are a kind of approximation, an average of the kind of markings that will yield a satisfying result. So they can be treated more flexibly thn in e.g. Mahler, and sometimes wildly so. IMO this in itself doesn't necessarily constitute recomposition, it could be just something that took over on the night. Of course, if the composer does this time and time again, and becomes convinced that the original markings were misleading/ineffective, he might change them. That is recomposition.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 16, 2012, 02:56:54 AM
Interesting and sensible post, Luke. Many thanks! One question: how do you rate Arnold as a symphonist?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 16, 2012, 03:47:15 AM
Wow! I wish I lived near a composer,or did! Musically,I've met Sir Geraint Evans once,very briefly (I told this story,here somewhere. My dads rust bucket was parked next to his Rolls! :(). We weren't introduced! And I remember I had a book on Cyril Scott by Ian Parrott & my father said,'I met him!' (on a train).

Arnold doesn't sound like the kind of bloke you'd want to go drinking with,but we all have our problems! I recently invested in the Naxos (and some Conifer's s/h). Having previously enjoyed Arnold's music,but not being too sure whether the symphonies really hold together,I am now a convert & I think they are probably as good as some of Malcolm Arnold's most ardent admirers say they are.Arnold's assimilation of popular & classical idioms is very individual & I do think he is one of the very few composers to have ever pulled this off. Now,I really DON'T want to compare him with Mahler,but his use of 'popular music' in some of his symphonies ie No's 2,4,5,6,7 & 8,makes me think of Arnold as a sort of updated British equivalent,albeit,not on such an exalted level,perhaps (like Dundonnell,I dislike comparisons). No 4 is a case in point,with such a powerful slow movement. No 7 sounds very impressivel,to my untutored ears,in the Handley performance.Astonishingly original music!

Have to say I like Arnolds own recordings,but it was listening to some of these other interpretations that convinced me. Having said that,Arnold composed them,so who am I to argue with his own interpretations?

Arnold's strikes me as a bit of a maverick,like Brian & similarly controversial. Although,unlike Brian he didn't compose any colossal record breaking works,he was less philosophical about his neglect.......oh,and Brian didn't team up with Deep Purple! That COULD have been fun :o, and he certainly lived long enough,didn't he? ;D

Brian's Concerto for orchestra & (rock) group? The mind boggles!

Incidentally,I remember years ago,there was a programme on,BBC2 I think,about Arnold,and I remember my parents sitting there waiting for the intro to finish,expecting a jolly little man who composed the English Dances & Beckus the Dandipratt & the first thing they saw was this embittered,depressed looking man,launching into a gloomy,miserable rant. The shock on my parents faces! This was at a time when a good deal of Arnold's music,including allot of the symphonies,remained unrecorded. Reading about them in a library book was like reading MM's book (s) on the Brian symphonies;they descriptions of them so tantalising. No's 4,6 & 7,for example. I remember thinking.'What do THEY sound like?' 'Will I EVER hear them?' Who would have though that only a few years later there would be all these recorded cycles?!!!

(Erm,back to Brian!!!! ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on February 16, 2012, 04:13:14 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 16, 2012, 02:56:54 AM
Interesting and sensible post, Luke. Many thanks! One question: how do you rate Arnold as a symphonist?

Just wrote a long (but probably needlessly so) response on this slow old laptop, and then lost it! Maybe I will try again later...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 16, 2012, 05:41:37 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 16, 2012, 03:47:15 AM
Wow! I wish I lived near a composer,or did! Musically,I've met Sir Geraint Evans once,very briefly (I told this story,here somewhere. My dads rust bucket was parked next to his Rolls! :(). We weren't introduced! And I remember I had a book on Cyril Scott by Ian Parrott & my father said,'I met him!' (on a train).

Arnold doesn't sound like the kind of bloke you'd want to go drinking with,but we all have our problems! I recently invested in the Naxos (and some Conifer's s/h). Having previously enjoyed Arnold's music,but not being too sure whether the symphonies really hold together,I am now a convert & I think they are probably as good as some of Malcolm Arnold's most ardent admirers say they are.Arnold's assimilation of popular & classical idioms is very individual & I do think he is one of the very few composers to have ever pulled this off. Now,I really DON'T want to compare him with Mahler,but his use of 'popular music' in some of his symphonies ie No's 2,4,5,6,7 & 8,makes me think of Arnold as a sort of updated British equivalent,albeit,not on such an exalted level,perhaps (like Dundonnell,I dislike comparisons). No 4 is a case in point,with such a powerful slow movement. No 7 sounds very impressivel,to my untutored ears,in the Handley performance.Astonishingly original music!

Have to say I like Arnolds own recordings,but it was listening to some of these other interpretations that convinced me. Having said that,Arnold composed them,so who am I to argue with his own interpretations?

Arnold's strikes me as a bit of a maverick,like Brian & similarly controversial. Although,unlike Brian he didn't compose any colossal record breaking works,he was less philosophical about his neglect.......oh,and Brian didn't team up with Deep Purple! That COULD have been fun :o, and he certainly lived long enough,didn't he? ;D

Brian's Concerto for orchestra & (rock) group? The mind boggles!

Incidentally,I remember years ago,there was a programme on,BBC2 I think,about Arnold,and I remember my parents sitting there waiting for the intro to finish,expecting a jolly little man who composed the English Dances & Beckus the Dandipratt & the first thing they saw was this embittered,depressed looking man,launching into a gloomy,miserable rant. The shock on my parents faces! This was at a time when a good deal of Arnold's music,including allot of the symphonies,remained unrecorded. Reading about them in a library book was like reading MM's book (s) on the Brian symphonies;they descriptions of them so tantalising. No's 4,6 & 7,for example. I remember thinking.'What do THEY sound like?' 'Will I EVER hear them?' Who would have though that only a few years later there would be all these recorded cycles?!!!

(Erm,back to Brian!!!! ;D)
It's a brilliant film from 2004 called Toward the Unknown Region by Tony Palmer. Runs for well over 2 hours and well worth getting on DVD. It includes a cracking interveiw with Jon Lord and several sections of Brass Band music played by youth bands (Rochdale and Wardle). I came across Malcolm Arnold twice. Once in Leicester in 1963 when I heard him rehearse and then perform in concert with the LSSO. Very hearty and jovial. This was when I was very young, a few years before I got into the LSSO. The programme included Tam O'shanter, Till Eulenspiegel and The Young Persons Guide. Many years later - either 1998 or 2000 - I saw him in Dubai having a drink or two with a young man who was his carer I believe. Malcolm was a very versatile, agile musician. Very quick thinking and he wrote wonderful music almost at the drop of a hat. Unlike our hero HB (dons tin hat quickly) he was an expert orchestrator who knew the orchestra inside out and understood all the instruments and their limitations. Even when he wrote the Guitar Concerto (a very alien instument to him) Julian Bream only had to make one or two minor changes to make it playable. Much too tuneful and smart for the establishment was our Malcolm I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 16, 2012, 06:10:00 AM
The trouble with Malcolm Arnold from the 1970s and over the next two decades is that, as a consequence of his drink and other problems, he could be, and sadly often was, extremely abusive towards those who were continuing to try to help by getting his music performed. This included both orchestral management, conductors and orchestras. The jolly, cheerful Malcolm of 1963 had been replaced by a highy unpleasant and very sick character :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 16, 2012, 10:06:08 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 16, 2012, 03:47:15 AM
Wow! I wish I lived near a composer,or did! Musically,I've met Sir Geraint Evans once,very briefly (I told this story,here somewhere. My dads rust bucket was parked next to his Rolls! :(). We weren't introduced! And I remember I had a book on Cyril Scott by Ian Parrott & my father said,'I met him!' (on a train).

Arnold doesn't sound like the kind of bloke you'd want to go drinking with,but we all have our problems! I recently invested in the Naxos (and some Conifer's s/h). Having previously enjoyed Arnold's music,but not being too sure whether the symphonies really hold together,I am now a convert & I think they are probably as good as some of Malcolm Arnold's most ardent admirers say they are.Arnold's assimilation of popular & classical idioms is very individual & I do think he is one of the very few composers to have ever pulled this off. Now,I really DON'T want to compare him with Mahler,but his use of 'popular music' in some of his symphonies ie No's 2,4,5,6,7 & 8,makes me think of Arnold as a sort of updated British equivalent,albeit,not on such an exalted level,perhaps (like Dundonnell,I dislike comparisons). No 4 is a case in point,with such a powerful slow movement. No 7 sounds very impressivel,to my untutored ears,in the Handley performance.Astonishingly original music!

Have to say I like Arnolds own recordings,but it was listening to some of these other interpretations that convinced me. Having said that,Arnold composed them,so who am I to argue with his own interpretations? Arnold's strikes me as a bit of a maverick,like Brian & similarly controversial. Although,unlike Brian he didn't compose any colossal record breaking works,he was less philosophical about his neglect.......oh,and Brian didn't team up with Deep Purple! That COULD have been fun :o, and he certainly lived long enough,didn't he? ;D

Brian's Concerto for orchestra & (rock) group? The mind boggles!

Incidentally,I remember years ago,there was a programme on,BBC2 I think,about Arnold,and I remember my parents sitting there waiting for the intro to finish,expecting a jolly little man who composed the English Dances & Beckus the Dandipratt & the first thing they saw was this embittered,depressed looking man,launching into a gloomy,miserable rant. The shock on my parents faces! This was at a time when a good deal of Arnold's music,including allot of the symphonies,remained unrecorded. Reading about them in a library book was like reading MM's book (s) on the Brian symphonies;they descriptions of them so tantalising. No's 4,6 & 7,for example. I remember thinking.'What do THEY sound like?' 'Will I EVER hear them?' Who would have though that only a few years later there would be all these recorded cycles?!!!

(Erm,back to Brian!!!! ;D)
Trouble is, not many composers are particularly gifted at conducting. It's a totally different skill. Britten was absolutely superb. Tippett was terrible. Bliss was highly professional and more than competent. Walton was OK but his recordings of his own music pale by comparison to those by Previn (Symphony No.1) and Szell (Partita and Symphony No.2). Oliver Knussen is technically amazing. As it turns out Malcolm Arnold was annoyingly good at everything. Wonderful composer, world class trumpet player and a dynamic inspirational conductor. I'm just listening to his recording with the LPO of his 3rd symphony. Great playing, beautifully conducted and the Everest sonics are staggering for something recorded in 1958.  Fabulous record. Sounds as good as new. Actually. I've just noticed that the theme from the slow movement was nicked by Planet of the Apes. Monkey business indeed.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 16, 2012, 10:10:56 AM
As promised, here's the Pope Brian 10. Pitch corrected by yours truly, repaired and with some special ingedients added by the Wizard of Oklahoma, Curt Timmons. This is as good as it will get.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?8lpag733avfvpb7

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 16, 2012, 10:14:15 AM
Many thanks both to you, John, and Curt!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 16, 2012, 11:12:15 AM
Has anyone downloaded the Schwarz recording of the 8th?  It's very good with a very assured and in tune opening - a passage that's always let down the Groves performance.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 16, 2012, 11:29:58 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on February 16, 2012, 11:12:15 AM
Has anyone downloaded the Schwarz recording of the 8th?  It's very good with a very assured and in tune opening - a passage that's always let down the Groves performance.

Thank god I don't have perfect pitch  :D

Quote from: John Whitmore on February 16, 2012, 10:10:56 AM
As promised, here's the Pope Brian 10. Pitch corrected by yours truly, repaired and with some special ingedients added by the Wizard of Oklahoma, Curt Timmons. This is as good as it will get.

Thank you. I quite like this performance....including the slow opening. But then, I'm rather slow myself  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 16, 2012, 11:32:41 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on Today at 21:12:15 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg602141#msg602141)
Has anyone downloaded the Schwarz recording of the 8th?  It's very good with a very assured and in tune opening - a passage that's always let down the Groves performance.



Well, the tuba solo isn't note-perfect (just preceding another descending piano scale)... But you can't have everything.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 16, 2012, 11:57:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 16, 2012, 11:32:41 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on Today at 21:12:15 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg602141#msg602141)
Has anyone downloaded the Schwarz recording of the 8th?  It's very good with a very assured and in tune opening - a passage that's always let down the Groves performance.



Well,
the tuba solo isn't note-perfect (just preceding another descending piano scale)... But you can't have everything.  ;D

I've never heard a note perfect performance of anything either live or on record. It's the humans that spoil it. Stop being Mr Picky :D Have you listened to Curt's restoration yet? It sounds very good I must say. It's been said that had Sibelius only written one piece - Tapiola - he would still be classed as a great composer. I don't disagree. If Brian had only written the 10th symphony he would still be classed as a very good composer. I have no doubt about that. It's a splendid piece.   
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 16, 2012, 12:03:47 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on February 16, 2012, 11:57:25 AM
Have you listened to Curt's restoration yet? It sounds very good I must say.


I listened to it 3 times already... We've come a long way, it sounds perfectly acceptable! I wonder what Curt's 'secret ingredient' consists of? A voodoo ritual?


Great composer, Havergal Brian.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 16, 2012, 06:33:23 PM
I've been listening to The Tigers again, and whilst I'm even more impressed by it, at the same time I'm even more intrigued by it.

Most of the discussion of it seems to focus on the 'anti-war' aspects of it. But I find the anti-war, anti-militarism aspects of the opera quite muted. The Tigers are presumably a Territorial Army regiment, not a regular army regiment, and the opera isn't set during WW1, but just as it begins, with a false alarm of a Zeppelin attack occurring in the final act. It could almost be understood as Kitchener's New Army ruefully nostalgic view of 'how we were before the war', how unprofessional the army was, how we underestimated what total war would be like. (Note how the Colonel of the Tigers, Sir John Stout, whilst depicted as absurd and given to issuing nonsensical and contradictory orders, is actually treated quite sympathetically).

You can see there's a lot of satire of operas like Hugh the Drover, showing the English folk going about their traditional business, in The Tigers, and this type of action is disrupted by farce (the young man on the elephant being chased by police, the illiterate stall holders, the soldier-worshipping clergy and so forth), but not by brutal reality, and there is a sense that these elements are still valid, for example the way that Columbine and Pantaloon emerge from the Carnival at the end of the Prelude, or the Tigers making merry with the harvestgirls rather than taking part in military manoeuvres (as you would).

The way I think I understand the opera is that it is saying that both the pre-war Edwardian summer of Englishness greatness and our knowledge of the horrors of the War (actually not articulated in the opera) are not real responses to the experience of the last so many years of late C19 and early C20 life (Brian's life-time). What are the real responses? where do they come from? Perhaps, the opera suggests, they come from the life of the untrammelled, dream-like imagination that is presented to us in the opera in the Symphonic Dances which contain the most amazingly impressive music (NB the title of these, is Brian saying, 'well here's an opera, but I think my symphonies will contain my real imaginative life' ?).

This is underlined by the fact that here, as in the Gothic, the voices are subordinated to the music. That is, whilst the words and the word-setting, vocal melodies &c are not incompetent or uninteresting, the main interest in the Opera is in the orchestral music, and the most impressive vocal writing is where the voices, usually the chorus, becomes a part of the orchestra and what they are singing is less important than the sound they make (again as with the Gothic).

I think that in this opera Brian was doing something similar to what he did in writing the Gothic, thinking in effect 'right, they're not performing my music, I don't care, I'll just write the most extraordinary music I am capable of, with no regard for any practicalities of performance, that'll show them'. I don't think we ever see this opera staged (how do you have an elephant on stage? Or a dog and a donkey fighting?), but it did occur to me that what we might see, and this would apply to other operas where the staging is a problem, like The Ring, is a studio performance coupled on a DVD with sophisticated art-cartoon version of the opera.

The music, it goes without saying. is of the most incredible power and delicacy. I am reminded of the C19 inventor who used his newly-invented steam-hammer to crack an egg. Contrary to the heresies flying around here about Brian's orchestration, I think he was one of the masters of the orchestra of the C20, if a passage sounds to someone with a good knowledge of classical music as thick, heavy and inappropriate, then presumably this is exactly what Brian intended, and you have to ask what this means for an understanding of the work. You can find plenty of examples in The Tigers of music that is deliberately plodding and thick, and these are for satiric or parodic purposes, so the same would hold true for such passages in the symphonies.

One final thing I noted with amusement was how the theme of an older man in love with a younger woman crops up, with Columbine and Pantaloon in the Prelude and with Sir John Stout and Mrs Pamela Freebody in the rest of the opera. Is this a reflection on Brian relationship with his second wife, who was younger than him?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 16, 2012, 11:01:26 PM
Here is #497 of this thread. See the next post for the preceding one... Took me some time to find them...



Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on 22-12-2010, 21:50:35 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg475749#msg475749)
Courtesy of your good self, Albion, I listened to the whole of 'The Tigers' again yesterday. Whether the 'opera' is successful as an opera is a moot point. What is most striking is the dream logic that informs everything. And the music that follows from that is Brian at his most mercurial and original. I can see him 'working through', in a satirical fashion, World War 1, but also his failed first marriage. Colonel Sir John Stout is for me the protagonist of the opera, not the eponymous regiment. I wonder whether his delusions of grandeur - dreaming about Alexander and Napoleon, amongst others - isn't Brian poking fun at himself at this point in his career when he definitively became a great composer. Your point about Dada is interesting. But I think Brian's satire is intensely English and draws its inspiration from the music hall, Dickens, Hogarth et al. Brian, with his working-class background, takes a swipe at the British class system. He 'hides' in a colonel, who is unhappily married, feels old, and senses a new beginning in the outrageous(ly funny) Pamela Freebody (a very speaking name, that!) His decision, in Act Three, to meet her again tomorrow is - I discovered yesterday - the central decision of the whole opera. After that the music descends into comic pandemonium, as a precursor of the social opprobrium that the colonel's decision will cause him, like it did Brian (who fell in love with the maid, whom he later married, and was divorced by his first wife).


That's my new understanding of 'The Tigers'. For which I have to thank you (indirectly)!


P.S. What Dutton did with 'The Gothic', they might do with 'The Tigers'...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 16, 2012, 11:42:00 PM
Here is #496...
Quote from: Albion on 22-12-2010, 05:07:32 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg475515#msg475515)
By some miracle, my tapes managed to survive more or less intact (apart from a tiny bit of echo and some distortion) long enough to make it into the CD-transfer age!

Listening to
The Tigers, it has always struck me that Brian must have been aware of the Dada movement, at it's peak between 1916 and 1922, and not only by the anti-war stance that both represent. He produced an unprecedented absurdist anti-opera in which, despite some pseudo-heroic posturing by the Colonel, nothing really happens at all. Characters speak in everyday language, others appear only to disappear again, and then there is the peculiarity of that huge dream-like Prologue which completely dwarfs the tiny first act proper (in itself, the Prologue is perhaps one of the most startlingly original things that even Brian created - one of my favourite moments is when Pantalon says of his supposed rival for Columbine's affections "I'll hit him with a carrot").

What is really needed is a full and luxuriously-presented commercial release of this wonderful performance - one of the best and most enterprising that the BBC has ever initiated. We may never see it staged, but then perhaps the visual element is best left to the imagination anyway!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 17, 2012, 05:42:58 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 16, 2012, 12:03:47 PM

I listened to it 3 times already... We've come a long way, it sounds perfectly acceptable! I wonder what Curt's 'secret ingredient' consists of? A voodoo ritual?
Great composer, Havergal Brian.  ;D
Even that wouldn't make the 4th tolerable. Half decent composer, Havergal Brian ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: thranx on February 19, 2012, 10:09:35 AM
Given the advances, both contemporary and ongoing, in the art of theatrical puppetry (The Lion King, War Horse), I would think at least a moderately representational elephant on stage would no longer be an insurmountable problem.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 20, 2012, 12:31:54 AM
Just by way of an update the HBS members area archive section now has a number of press reviews and cuttings from the LSSO 1970s Brian performances and recordings.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 25, 2012, 06:28:26 AM
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Jan12/DL_roundup_Jan12_2.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Jan12/DL_roundup_Jan12_2.htm)

Just in case anyone hasn't seen it,there is another review of the 'Hyperion Gothic' on Musicweb*. If the link doesn't work :( just look under 'January 2012 downloads round up'!) Or something like that,anyway! ;D It's VERY postive,so no need to wail,beat you're chest or get out the a dram of the strong stuff.....except to toast the reviewer,perhaps! ;D

* NB: You'll need to scroll down quite some way to find it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 25, 2012, 06:34:00 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on Today at 16:28:26 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg604383#msg604383)>http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Jan12/DL_roundup_Jan12_2.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Jan12/DL_roundup_Jan12_2.htm)

Just in case anyone hasn't seen it,there is another review of the 'Hyperion Gothic' on Musicweb. If the link doesn't work :( just look under 'January 2012 downloads round up'!) Or something like that,anyway! ;D It's VERY postive,so no need to wail,beat you're chest or get out the a dram of the strong stuff.....except to toast the reviewer,perhaps! ;D



I read it earlier and thanked the writer on Twitter...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 25, 2012, 06:37:13 AM
A "Damascene conversion"! :) You can't go much better than that! :) :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 25, 2012, 06:40:44 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on Today at 16:37:13 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg604390#msg604390)
A "Damascene conversion"! :) You can't go much better than that! :) :) :)



His first name was Stan. Now it's Dan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 25, 2012, 06:58:41 AM
 ;D He's on his way back from Damascus,right now (or the metaphorical equivalent!)I notice he shares my negative response to the Naxos,but compares the revelatory impact of Brabbins's performance to Horenstein's eighth.
I had a quick look at a review of a cd release of Horenstein's eighth & I was interested to note that the original BBC transcription had 17 minutes of applause,which,'unfortunately,according to the reviewer,was not included. This would have been more than twice as long as the applause preserved on the Hyperion release!

http://www.classicalcdreview.com/horenstein.html (http://www.classicalcdreview.com/horenstein.html)

encore!!! ;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 25, 2012, 07:03:12 AM
Interesting review. I must have that recording. O, by the way, if I remember correctly - the applause after the Gothic went on for about 12 minutes...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 25, 2012, 07:12:35 AM
 :( Hm! I though that! I enjoy Mahler's eighth,when I have enough time (!);but I must admit,I don't find it one of his most convincing,structurally,however thrilling it undoubtedly is. I looked the Horenstein 8 up on Amazon just now,but too late for the deletions axe,I fear! "Currently unavailable!" :) Horenstein's famous third is another one that forever eludes me,thanks to extortionate seller prices. Still,they need the money,I suppose!(So do I!!! :() The one I heard years ago was in my local library. Those were the days!

Twelve minutes? Oops! Eight minutes for the 'Gothic'? How dare I?!!! >:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 25, 2012, 07:20:58 AM
Mahler 3 Horenstein. £65.89p,and look at the ratings! :o That's two weeks shopping,even if I was daft enough to buy it! Come on Regis,Alto? Where are you when you're needed?
You could have probably found this on a s/h market stall,a few years ago,for next to nothing!

The Groves Delius Mass of Life is another one! Curse the deletions axe! Still,you just have to keep looking. I recently obtained the original emi release of the Groves VW Hugh the Drover s/h & well worth the wait it was! :)
I notice,the Meredith Davies 'Village Romeo & Juliet' has now been reissued. I have the Mackerras recording,at present. I suppose I should grab it while I can!!!!

Back to Brian! :o ;D

If some genius DOES bring out the Ole Schmidt 'Gothic' on cd the BBC are going to HAVE to do a 'Building a library'!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 25, 2012, 09:16:44 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 25, 2012, 07:20:58 AM
Mahler 3 Horenstein. £65.89p,and look at the ratings! :o That's two weeks shopping,even if I was daft enough to buy it! Come on Regis,Alto? Where are you when you're needed?
You could have probably found this on a s/h market stall,a few years ago,for next to nothing!

The Groves Delius Mass of Life is another one! Curse the deletions axe! Still,you just have to keep looking. I recently obtained the original emi release of the Groves VW Hugh the Drover s/h & well worth the wait it was! :)
I notice,the Meredith Davies 'Village Romeo & Juliet' has now been reissued. I have the Mackerras recording,at present. I suppose I should grab it while I can!!!!

Back to Brian! :o ;D

If some genius DOES bring out the Ole Schmidt 'Gothic' on cd the BBC are going to have to do a 'Building a library'!
The Horenstein Mahler 3 (Unicorn) is in a cheap set of the complete Mahler cycle on Brilliant Classics. Used to be around 20 quid for the box. You might get it second hand for around 30 now if you look. There are plenty of the Groves/Delius sets knocking around on Ebay for a tenner.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 25, 2012, 11:54:21 AM
Does ANYONE have "The Tigers" recording on their computer as a digital file, or does it continue to exist merely on old tape recordings, because that broadcast was FAR before my time, and I would love to hear the opera. If anyone does have the recording on their computer, would he/she be willing to send it to me or to upload it to a filesharing site or Youtube? It irks me that, since I can't "hear" music just by reading scores, I have NO way of hearing the Tigers, which I really want to hear and compare to the Gothic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 25, 2012, 12:54:46 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 25, 2012, 07:03:12 AM
Interesting review. I must have that recording. O, by the way, if I remember correctly - the applause after the Gothic went on for about 12 minutes...

That was because you kept on cheering after everybody else had gone home ;D ;D

No, that's NOT true.........but Seriously......I am informed that the latest edition of the French music magazine 'Classica' has made the Gothic their recording of the month and that there is a very enthusiastic review by the eminent French critic Michel Fleury :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 25, 2012, 01:19:29 PM
Haha!

I noticed I had gone on too long, when I got that withering look from maestro Brabbins.

Re the French review - I remember reading it, after I saw it mentioned on Twitter. Vive la France!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 25, 2012, 01:45:30 PM
Also does anyone have recordings of the Music Dramas? (Agamemnon, the Cenci, Turandot)?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 25, 2012, 02:02:15 PM
More good reviews! The Hyperion release is really starting to spread the message!
My apologies,for my my lazy posting! Eight minutes of applause for the 'Gothic'?!! I'm a disgrace to this message board!
  I wonder if they would have forcibly removed you if you had carried on with you're applause? 'Man removed from Royal Albert Hall for refusing to stop applauding', would have made an interesting newspaper headline & maybe someone could have filmed the event on their mobile & passed it onto the BBC! I mean,let's face it there aren't any laws relating to the duration of applause,as far as I am aware.
It's just knowing when to start & stop! :o

Go for it,I say!!!!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 25, 2012, 02:32:58 PM
I know at one time there was an endeavour to put all the Brian Symphonies onto Sibelius or Finale and save the scores that way. Does anyone know whether this ever happened? And if it did, whether the Finale or SIbelius files are available anywhere?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 25, 2012, 02:35:39 PM
Quote from: Winky Willy on February 25, 2012, 01:45:30 PM
Also does anyone have recordings of the Music Dramas? (Agamemnon, the Cenci, Turandot)?

Yes...I recorded 'Agamemnon' from BBC Radio back in 1973 on reel-to-reel tape :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 25, 2012, 02:37:15 PM
Have you converted it to digital files and put it on your computer?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 25, 2012, 02:41:31 PM
(As may be obvious from all my questions and attempts to get recordings, I am a HB fan, who was born to late to hear all these performances on the radio, and has no other way to get them. I am especially interested in the music dramas, as welll as Prometheus Unbound, but THAT, sadly, is lost to all! Thanks everybody for any help you give me!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 25, 2012, 02:50:37 PM
Quote from: Winky Willy on Today at 00:41:31 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg604501#msg604501)
(As may be obvious from all my questions and attempts to get recordings, I am a HB fan, who was born to late to hear all these performances on the radio, and has no other way to get them. I am especially interested in the music dramas, as welll as Prometheus Unbound, but THAT, sadly, is lost to all! Thanks everybody for any help you give me!)



WW, it's a bit late where I live, but all your questions can be answered and the radio performances of all the symphonies are 'out there'. Colin (Dundonnell) can help you, and so can I. We also have the Webmaster of the HBS website dropping by every other day. Be patient and your HB knowledge will explode. Check my profile for my email address by clicking on my name.


--Johan
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 25, 2012, 02:55:15 PM
See your pms ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 25, 2012, 03:16:15 PM
Thanks to you all!
RTM
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 25, 2012, 03:58:40 PM
This is where it all happens! ;D
My ancient cd player is now playing my cd-r of Spohr symphonies. Second time lucky.The first time I put it in it stopped after every track. Now it's playing the cd all the way through,fingers crossed. Anyone know why this happens? Perhaps it didn't scan the cdr properly the first time or it's a slow learner!!!
I was actually contemplating transferring my cdr to a D90 cassette!!!! :o

Now it's stopped again! :(
Annoying! It does say it plays cd-r's!!!

A bit too late to answer these kind of queries,of course! Especially when I'm playing Louis Spohr! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on February 25, 2012, 04:14:37 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 25, 2012, 03:58:40 PM
This is where it all happens! ;D
My ancient cd player is now playing my cd-r of Spohr symphonies. Second time lucky.The first time I put it in it stopped after every track. Now it's playing the cd all the way through,fingers crossed. Anyone know why this happens? Perhaps it didn't scan the cdr properly the first time or it's a slow learner!!!
I was actually contemplating transferring my cdr to a D90 cassette!!!! :o

Now it's stopped again! :(
Annoying! It does say it plays cd-r's!!!

Try ripping and burning a new CD with a different program (or try playing it in your DVD player or your car's CD player).  My CD player will, every so often, not recognize the encoding of a commercially produced CD that plays fine in my DVD, car or computer.  There's no discernible reason.  I have heard that some I-Tunes stuff has trouble with the concept of not stopping after every track--something like that should be solved by burning a new CD.

BTW, I PM'd you about Delius.  (Didn't see a need to bother the others here with it.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 25, 2012, 04:26:20 PM
Thanks!I'll have a look there,now. Yes.I shouldn't be droning on about unrelated cd deletion gripes,here!
The cd burner I used this time was a free program called CD Burner XP. The cd-r used is a Maxell 700mb 52x. (They're cassettes used to be ok! ;D) I can load it into my 5cd changer tommorrow,if it comes to the crunch. I may have done something wrong. A bit late to research now! But it's one track then you have to manually move the b***** to the next track! :(



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 25, 2012, 07:55:01 PM
Would anyone happen to have the Boult Gothic for download? That was broadcast, wasn't it?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on February 26, 2012, 12:16:50 AM
Greetings Winky Willy.

Good to see you here; it's great that the 'younger generations'(!) are turning on to Brian as well as us 'oldies'.

Some answers to your questions:

- Yes, many of Brian's scores are and continue to be set in Sibelius; however these are not publicly available as this is an ongoing process being undertaken by the Brian Society in association with Brian's publishers UMP to make sure that accurate scores and parts are available for future performances.

- The HBS maintains a recordings library for its members, of non-commercially-available recordings.This includes the music dramas. 'Faust' and 'Turandot' have never been performed in full, although the Prologue in Heaven from Faust was recorded (with Sir Charles Mackerras conducting) and broadcast in 1979, and the Night-Ride of  Faust & Mephistopheles was included on the recent Toccata Classics CD of music from the operas, that also includes substantial orchestral excerpts from Turandot.

- The Boult Gothic was released on CD by Testament a couple of years ago. The CDs also contain an interview with Brian.

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 26, 2012, 02:06:03 AM
Quote from: Winky Willy on February 25, 2012, 07:55:01 PM
Would anyone happen to have the Boult Gothic for download? That was broadcast, wasn't it?
Rodney,
I've just emailed you.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 03:54:03 AM
The cdr's work perfectly on my 5cd changer. As I said,it was an ancient old cd player! What did I expect?!!! Thanks for the suggestions,anyway Jeffrey & the message. I will have took into these cd burning issues a little more deeply,anyway. But my 'burned' Louis Spohr symphonies sound lovely now. Beethoven must be rolling in his grave! (I doubt it,but I like this music.Nice & restful!)

  Glad you found the help you need WW! It's not that I didn't want to help (excuses! :o),but with my skills it could take ten years & there are experts like Johan,John & the hbs webmaster himself,here. Indeed,it's partly (largely)thanks to Johan that I can upload,hyperlink & do things like that,at all!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 26, 2012, 05:16:40 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 03:54:03 AM
The cdr's work perfectly on my 5cd changer. As I said,it was an ancient old cd player! What did I expect?!!! Thanks for the suggestions,anyway Jeffrey & the message. I will have took into these cd burning issues a little more deeply,anyway. But my 'burned' Louis Spohr symphonies sound lovely now. Beethoven must be rolling in his grave! (I doubt it,but I like this music.Nice & restful!)

  Glad you found the help you need WW! It's not that I didn't want to help (excuses! :o),but with my skills it could take ten years & there are experts like Johan,John & the hbs webmaster himself,here. Indeed,it's partly (largely)thanks to Johan that I can upload,hyperlink & do things like that,at all!
Blimey! Whatever next - joined up writing?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 06:10:48 AM
Wellyouneverno! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 06:22:04 AM
Potty-training cilgwyn was my biggest triumph.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on February 26, 2012, 06:29:12 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 06:22:04 AM
Potty-training cilgwyn was my biggest triumph.

Yeah, but doing it with rope?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 06:30:34 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 06:22:04 AM
Potty-training cilgwyn was my biggest triumph.
Better keep that one under the old belt,eh,Johan! Don't want everyone to......AHEM,so the Hyperion Gothic's been getting some more good reviews,has it?!!! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 06:31:42 AM
Yes, reaction to it has been very favourable so far, cilgwyn! [ROPE?!]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 06:32:56 AM
Quote from: springrite on February 26, 2012, 06:29:12 AM
Yeah, but doing it with rope?
:o :o :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 06:35:38 AM
Anewusernameperhaps? Noonewillnowhoiam!

Actually,I had to bid on an old china chamber pot once. One of those ones with an eye on the bottom......and,no,it wasn't for me! ;D ;D My voice unexpectedly dried up. I couldn't get a word out (NO PUNS,PLEASE! :o). It was a bit like that time I tried Karaoke!
It was an object of rare beauty,the sort of thing you would take onto the 'Antiques Roadshow'............wearing a balaclava,to disguise yourself,of course! :o
Or a York Bowen horror mask! :o

Let's face it (preferably not! :o)even the young Havergal Brian had to undergo potty training. Potty training in the Potteries,is quite a rite of passage,as every Northerner worth his salt won't tell you!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 06:56:10 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on Today at 16:35:38 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg604637#msg604637)


Let's face it (preferably not! :o )even the young Havergal Brian had to undergo potty training. Potty training in the Potteries,is quite a rite of passage,as every Northerner worth his salt won't tell you!



;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 07:14:08 AM
And,if I pursue this line of thought any further all this talk of potty training by people living in the Potteries might just drive me potty! :o
Still,that's nearly 211 pages,already! :)

Talk of Langgaard's 'Antikrist' on the RL thread,reminds me that the idea of the Royal Danish Opera ever contemplating,let alone, putting on his Antikrist opera WOULD, once upon a time, have been regarded as potty (by the Danish,anyway*)! Now,of course,it has become a reality.
  Last year,HB's 'Gothic' at the Proms!!! The ENO or ROH performing 'The Tigers',may not be such a pipe dream,after all?!!!

* Although,maybe not all of them. I don't know what level of support RL had,in that dark (for him) period? He does seem to have antagonised people,unlike the more philosophical & humorous HB!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 07:18:34 AM
If I might suggest, the reason Langaard doesn't really have the same chance as HB is that he is a significantly inferior composer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 07:24:10 AM
@WW This is what I wrote about Brian and Langgaard yesterday:


Langgaard resembles Brian only in the neglect he suffered. Musically, intellectually, they are very different, I think. Brian is much more consistently adventurous and didn't have a spiritual programme, like Langgaard did (got it from his parents). The musical language of Langgaard's first symphony isn't very different from his last. Only in symphony no. 6 and, even more, the Music of the Spheres does he write music of astonishing boldness and novelty. But No. 7 retreats into the nineteenth century. This Brian never does. It's not just 40 years that separate the Gothic and Symphony No. 32, but a wholly different musical outlook.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 07:26:16 AM
I agree. Langaard, to me, doesn't have much of the originality, or the vision, of Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 07:28:19 AM
Now that we have a decent number of performances of the Gothic to choose from, how would everyone rank the various performances? Which is your favorite, which your least?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 07:32:35 AM
Quote from: Winky Willy on Today at 17:28:19 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg604665#msg604665)
Now that we have a decent number of performances of the Gothic to choose from, how would everyone rank the various performances? Which is your favorite, which your least?



I'll give that some thought and come back to you later. In the meantime it would interest me (and others, too, I think) how you discovered HB and what your favourite pieces are at the moment...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 07:47:58 AM
I am still a teenager; I pretty much always have loved classical music (in the broad sense). After I discovered Mahler I became pretty big on the big late Romantic works (although Mahler's 8th does little for me, strangely). Somehow or other I read a brief mention in some reference book to the Gothic being the largest symphony ever composed; I said to myself: I wonder what it sounds like. In short, I luckily found the Naxos CD (still tempo-wise probably my overall favorite) at a bookstore and bought it for my birthday in 2005, and I pretty much fell in love with the Gothic. I wanted to hear more from Brian, of course, after that, so I checked out every CD our library system had (which was not many) and heard the 3rd and 4th and a few of the smaller symphonies. I've hung around on the HBS website for a while and have read pretty much everything up there, as well as the Macdonald books. The Gothic is still far and away my favorite Brian work; I consider it one of the two or three greatest works of the 20th century. I like the big Brian stuff best, though the fourth is rather disturbing. Generally the Gothic was my gateway to Brian and it is still the most rewarding aspect of being a Brian fan.

That's basically it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 07:53:51 AM
My favorite pieces:
The Gothic
the 3rd
the 5th (that ending!!!)
the 12th
the 14th (still not quite sure why!)
The 31st and 32nd
(I haven't heard all the symphonies yet, though I now have all the broadcasts, so I don't know about all of them.)
In Memoriam
English Suite 5
I like the piano fugues based on my own sightreading, never heard recordings though.

Those are my favorites that spring immediately to mind; I probably am forgetting a few.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 07:55:13 AM
Many thanks, WW! I recognise a lot. I was a teenager, too, when I discovered the existence of one Havergal Brian in the central library in Amsterdam - the books by Malcolm MacDonald (it's his birthday today)...


I must be brief for the moment - I have an editing job to finish. But I'll be back!


[saw your favourite pieces - interesting! I am listening to HB 3 as I write...]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 08:01:46 AM
I wonder what percentage of HB fans got sucked in by the Gothic? It seems a lot. I keep trying to get all my friends to listen to it all the way through - generally unsuccessfully thus far, unfortunately!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on February 26, 2012, 08:06:38 AM
Quote from: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 07:53:51 AM
My favorite pieces:
The Gothic
the 3rd
the 5th (that ending!!!)
the 12th
the 14th (still not quite sure why!)
The 31st and 32nd
(I haven't heard all the symphonies yet, though I now have all the broadcasts, so I don't know about all of them.)
In Memoriam
English Suite 5
I like the piano fugues based on my own sightreading, never heard recordings though.

Those are my favorites that spring immediately to mind; I probably am forgetting a few.

Many good choices. Anyone who's has half of his initial posts at GMG on the Brian thread certainly has my respect!

BTW, I got sucked in by the Gothic (an old LP at an old friend's house)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 08:11:52 AM
It was the Gothic,for me,courtesy of the Ole Schmidt performance. There were Lp's of other Brian works around at the time,of course & sooner or later I probably would have decided to try my library copy of the LSSO 10 & 21 or 8 & 9,perhaps? Beside the music itself,the notes on the back describing all those huge,legendary works would have no doubt pulled me in even further. (My RL Lp of No 6 & the 'Music of the Sphere's,came via the post.I remember waiting months for it to arrive. No online clicking then,of course!)
I was always keen on trying out music by composers I didn't know. Martinu was another big library 'discovery',for me. Sadly,the last time I visited my local library it was chock full of populistic Classic FM style stuff & what might be described as safe,mainstream composers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 08:15:46 AM
Thanks! It's nice to find a place to talk to people who actually know HB well and like him! Notes on recordings always suck me in too.
I wish that there was more money available for libraries to build up real comprehensive collections of good music, not just Mozart, Beethoven and co. (though they are the tops, they aren't the only voices in music!!)I suppose that the internet (especially youtube) is as close as one can get to that. There's a lot of fascinating unknown composers whose music I have only heard there. Brian is still my favorite among the unknowns, along with the magnificent Hans Rott.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 08:16:45 AM
I always used to read the old Penguin records guide to find new names to look for. It was a pretty helpful book, I must say.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 08:37:20 AM
And Gramophone,when it was still a good magazine. I'd be thinking,'Hm? That sounds interesting?' I would then either send off a postal order to one of the numerous mail order ads or wait for my parents next trip to the County town. Come to think of it,that would have been another 'point of entry'. (I remember Michael Oliver used to give HB releases very enthusiastic reviews).  I would order it from the small,independent record store there. It was a good one,not like the chain stores of today,you never knew what you might find! It felt like an Aladdins cave,to my young mind.
I remember one s/h book shop that had copies of the Penguin guides. Some of them are still quite interesting to look at,now and again,just for a contemporary point of view,check up on a reissue or see just how attitudes towards certain composers have changed over the years.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 09:36:22 AM
I'm afraid that I'm too young to even remember the days when Gramophone was good...or to have been to a real music store, not just a chain store with nothing interesting in it. Youtube can function a bit like that "Aladdin's cave", but even there there are only a few assiduous uploaders of really unheard or rare music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on February 26, 2012, 09:38:00 AM
Quote from: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 09:36:22 AM
I'm afraid that I'm too young to even remember the days when Gramophone was good...or to have been to a real music store, not just a chain store with nothing interesting in it. Youtube can function a bit like that "Aladdin's cave", but even there there are only a few assiduous uploaders of really unheard or rare music.

Thankfully, we now have the GMG magazine. Have you seen it yet?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 09:54:26 AM
Nope. Sounds like I am missing out.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 09:54:48 AM
IRR Magazine is of course the current choice for the discerning collector.
  I suppose there are some good music chain stores around,I just haven't been to them,perhaps. What I dislike about them,personally,is the lack of suprises. The same layout & stock in every branch,just a bit bigger or smaller & no atmosphere! Of course,I'm being a bit 'anoraky' here,but they are just so sterile. Even the prices don't tempt me in now,since you can find stuff so much cheaper on the internet.
  From a purely selfish point of view,I will,however,be a little sorry,if HMV goes down,as the prices are often very low (offers on Dutton,etc) & they don't quibble at all if I want to send anything back ie " You took the shrink wrap off?!!!" Me: "Well,yes,how else could I know it was faulty,etc,etc".

And,back to Brian! ;D
 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 10:01:15 AM
Did anyone else find the Second immensely unrewarding and disappointing? I was really interested in it by MacDonald, but after several hearings I still can't bring myself to like it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 10:04:27 AM
The Second - on Naxos? That's a terrible performance (only the final movement comes off). You'll find that the radio performance under Mackerras does the work more justice, though I think No. 3 is the better work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on February 26, 2012, 10:06:39 AM
Quote from: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 09:54:26 AM
Nope. Sounds like I am missing out.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19287.0.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 10:08:24 AM
Quote from: springrite on Today at 20:06:39 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg604715#msg604715)>http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19287.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19287.0.html)



Scroll down a bit to see them... The third one is on page 4.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 10:12:33 AM
Haha! Great fun!
And thanks for the warning about the Rowe 2nd, Mr. Herrenberg, that is indeed the only version I have been listening to (though I was disappointed in the finale anyway). I'll have to see if the radio recording makes me think differently.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 10:36:12 AM
 :o I'm cancelling IRR,now!!!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 11:04:21 AM
Why?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 11:07:05 AM
Quote from: Winky Willy on Today at 21:04:21 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg604756#msg604756)
Why?



He's joking... As if GMG World was the the music magazine the IRR should be... !
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 11:11:30 AM
Sorry hahaha I'm an idiot!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 11:32:05 AM
As a certain,recently deceased comedian might say,it's the way I tell 'em! ;D
Of course,I could be really stupid and order Classic FM Magazine instead!!! ;D
I notice that the cover of the issue advertised on their website has a truly terrible picture of Franz Liszt. I thought Kirk Douglas had grown long hair & started composing,for a minute!

http://www.classicfm.co.uk/on-air/programmes/classic-fm-magazine/classic-fm-magazine-2012/ (http://www.classicfm.co.uk/on-air/programmes/classic-fm-magazine/classic-fm-magazine-2012/)

If the link doesn't work,you won't have missed allot! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 11:35:47 AM
The link works, but that picture sure doesn't! hahahaha
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 11:43:20 AM
Truly awful! I seem to remember 'Gramophone Magazine' having an equally awful 'mock up' illustration of how Beethoven might look if he was around today! Dear,oh,dear! :o

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 11:51:14 AM
I suppose if they are any good, they must look like movie stars, in the mind of those formed by modern pop culture!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 11:53:01 AM
And cheesy!!! :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 26, 2012, 01:11:37 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 10:04:27 AM
The Second - on Naxos? That's a terrible performance (only the final movement comes off). You'll find that the radio performance under Mackerras does the work more justice, though I think No. 3 is the better work.

I agree the Naxos 2nd isn't very good, but I don't think Symphonies 2-4 (what I think of as HB's Germanic Symphonies) are his most successful. The 4th, which stirs up strong emotions around here, is a hilarious idea, HB saying in effect "OK Germans, you're about to choose a government based on the worship of Macht und Kraft and repeat all the mistakes of 1914 and before, here's nearly an hour of overbearing Macht und Kraft worship... oh, by the way, did you know the Psalms are a Jewish liturgical text?'. Having said that, I don't want to listen to it too often.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 01:42:11 PM
Brian's 'Germanic' symphonies 2-4 - yes, that's what they are. I just listened (again) to 2 and 3. I find the Third the superior work, it is much tauter and more compelling. The Second is full of great ideas, but it doesn't hang together as well. It opens strongly, but the first theme is an amorphous letdown. The best things, for me, in Symphony No. 2 are the slow movement and the finale. 'Das Siegeslied', how much I listen to it, has never really convinced me, though others think and feel differently. I have never found the opening 'Handelian' theme very strong, Brian can do and has done so much better (No. 10 anyone?)


My favourite Brian symphonies - 1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 22, 24, 27, 28, 30, 31.


But I like them all...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 02:01:24 PM
The "Germanic" label is perfectly accurate for those three. I agree that the third is the most successful. The Scherzo especially always makes me think of Bruckner. Das Siegeslied I find to be very powerful and very repulsive. The idea of it either has nothing to do with art (the "anti-Nazi" idea) or it is simply an extremely bizarre work of art which is barbaric and frightening, and toes the line of sacrilege too. It has some moments I enjoy, and some which have a visceral impact, but overall I don't find it to make sense except as a rather absurd anti-Nazi musical tract. The Handelian opening doesn't work with the rest except as a tract on Germanic art, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 02:02:33 PM
Got to put a word in for No 7;one of my favourites,but by that,I don't mean it's one of the best. No 3 is my favourite Brian symphony,for some strange reason. I LOVE it! No4 is his worst,if I may use that word! The Poole performance is the one to hear,if you must hear it at all. Just don't mention it to John! :o The Mackerras performance of No2 makes a more convincing case for this uneven symphony. Unlike the Fourth,it does have it's moments & I would quite like to hear it in a really first rate recording. Having said that,it's still not exactly top of my 'please will you record some more Brian' list!
No 5 is marvellous. I will make up some cd-r's of some of those later symphonies you have listed,Johan, at the first opportunity,beginning with No 13,I think. My old fashioned style 5 cd changer can pop them on and off for me,without my having to move from the comfort of my living room! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 02:16:24 PM
Number 5 is terrific. Unbelievable mastery of the orchestra, and my favorite ending in all Brian's work save the Gothic. The seventh I was expecting a lot from, but I found it unfortunately lacking in melodic inspiration (not one of Brian's strong points, of course!) and memorability. Number four reminds me of Picasso: I can tell the artist knows what he is doing and that the work is powerful, but I find it ugly and unsuccessful (sorry Picasso fans). What I want to know is whether there are any works by Nazi composers which are similar to Four.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 02:18:00 PM
Does anyone have a recording of Dr. Merryheart from the BBC broadcast? I still haven't heard it and don't intend to buy it if I don't have to... (no I am not trying to steal the Dutton transfer) :-)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 02:28:31 PM
Quote from: Winky Willy on Today at 00:16:24 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg604824#msg604824)
Number 5 is terrific. Unbelievable mastery of the orchestra, and my favorite ending in all Brian's work save the Gothic. The seventh I was expecting a lot from, but I found it unfortunately lacking in melodic inspiration (not one of Brian's strong points, of course!) and memorability. Number four reminds me of Picasso: I can tell the artist knows what he is doing and that the work is powerful, but I find it ugly and unsuccessful (sorry Picasso fans). What I want to know is whether there are any works by Nazi composers which are similar to Four.



I know of a Deutsches Heldenrequiem (German Heroes Requiem). But Haitink, Karajan and Bernstein never recorded it. ;-) As for Symphony No. 7 - the first performance, under Newstone, is the one to hear. Mackerras is good, but Newstone is inspired (I had it on cassette, once...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 26, 2012, 02:34:47 PM
Perhaps I need to reserve all my judgments till I have heard all the recordings of the old radio broadcasts. That will take a long while!
It doesn't seem that anyone has ever recorded the Heldenrequiem. Good riddance, I suppose...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 04:14:52 PM
 :( I had  the Newstone 7,but unfortunately :(.I don't think it survived the big clear out I had a couple of years ago.
And I looked and I looked! :( :( :(
Nearly as bad as accidentally taping over the last few minutes of the Holmes Violin Concerto! :(
Correction. As bad! :( :( :(
Thank you Dundonnell,where ever you are! (forum wise...or,in bed?!!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 26, 2012, 04:20:00 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 04:14:52 PM
:( I had  the Newstone 7,but unfortunately :(.I don't think it survived the big clear out I had a couple of years ago.
And I looked and I looked! :( :( :(
Nearly as bad as accidentally taping over the last few minutes of the Holmes Violin Concerto! :(
Correction. As bad! :( :( :(
Thank you Dundonnell,where ever you are! (forum wise...or,in bed?!!)

"in bed" :o :o :o Me ::)....at this time of night ??? ???  What an absurd idea ;D

I am just getting warmed up ;D  (I didn't tell you about my relative Count Dracula, did I ???)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 04:24:50 PM
The Mishap of the Holmes Violin Concerto... The reconstruction by Watson fortunately turned out better than expected.

And now - to bed! [yes, Colin!]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 26, 2012, 04:26:17 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 04:24:50 PM
The Mishap of the Holmes Violin Concerto... The reconstruction by Watson fortunately turned out better than expected.

And now - to bed! [yes, Colin!]

Sleep well :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 04:42:51 PM
Good night...although,I don't want to sound too like the Waltons,with everyone joining in! So,maybe 'Nos Da!'

Nos Da!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 11:39:41 PM
Many thanks - all the good wishes did their work... ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 27, 2012, 07:15:27 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 26, 2012, 01:42:11 PM
Brian's 'Germanic' symphonies 2-4 - yes, that's what they are. I just listened (again) to 2 and 3. I find the Third the superior work, it is much tauter and more compelling. The Second is full of great ideas, but it doesn't hang together as well. It opens strongly, but the first theme is an amorphous letdown. The best things, for me, in Symphony No. 2 are the slow movement and the finale. 'Das Siegeslied', how much I listen to it, has never really convinced me, though others think and feel differently. I have never found the opening 'Handelian' theme very strong, Brian can do and has done so much better (No. 10 anyone?)


My favourite Brian symphonies - 1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 22, 24, 27, 28, 30, 31.
But I like them all...
My list is the same as yours except that it only includes 1,3 and 10. ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 27, 2012, 07:34:53 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 26, 2012, 02:02:33 PM
Got to put a word in for No 7;one of my favourites,but by that,I don't mean it's one of the best. No 3 is my favourite Brian symphony,for some strange reason. I LOVE it! No4 is his worst,if I may use that word! The Poole performance is the one to hear,if you must hear it at all. Just don't mention it to John! :o The Mackerras performance of No2 makes a more convincing case for this uneven symphony. Unlike the Fourth,it does have it's moments & I would quite like to hear it in a really first rate recording. Having said that,it's still not exactly top of my 'please will you record some more Brian' list!
No 5 is marvellous. I will make up some cd-r's of some of those later symphonies you have listed,Johan, at the first opportunity,beginning with No 13,I think. My old fashioned style 5 cd changer can pop them on and off for me,without my having to move from the comfort of my living room! :)
Pack it in!!!!!!!!!!! You simply can't hide on this forum :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 27, 2012, 07:46:24 AM
Sorry to go off topic but there are three more LSSO LP restorations online as of this morning. I'm really pleased with the results. That's 7 titles in total. The 3 new ones are:
1) Xenakis: Jonchaies/Douglas Young: Rain, Steam and Speed and Third Night Journey Under the Sea.
1) British and American music conducted by Bliss (his wonderful Introduction and Allegro), Previn (Ireland's Elegy) and Tippett (his Interlude II and Epilogue).
3) Dead in Tune. A musical whodunnit written and narrated by Robin Ray. Music by Herbert Chappell.
Living proof that we played some good music as well as the Brian stuff  :D
I also had a nice email exchange with Rob Barnett of Musicweb. He very much rated the Brian 22 on CBS and will get a copy and review the restoration shortly so that's good publicity for my old band and HB.
http://www.klassichaus.us/LSSO.php

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 27, 2012, 07:52:21 AM
Hm! Those are My top 3. Although I would place No 7 in fourth place,warts and all! Why don't you like No 6,incidentally? You're the musician,perhaps you can explain what's wrong with it,in you're usual forthright terms.John! ;D I don't play it that much,so I won't be too hurt! I find the way it erupts into 'violence' towards the end clumsy & contrived. It doesn't seem to evolve naturally out of the music that precedes it. There is undoubtedly some very imaginative music & the kind of soundworld that makes HB such an intriguing composer,with all his faults;but a master like Sibelius or Nielsen would have known how to make the transition appear natural & seamless. The effect to my untutored ears is jarring & disjointed,like two broken pieces of a cup or vase that have been glued together & they don't quite fit as well as they should. I think that the fact that's it's origins as a thwarted operatic project may have allot to do with it.
  With all due respect! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 27, 2012, 08:00:22 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 27, 2012, 07:52:21 AM
Hm! Those are My top 3. Although I would place No 7 in fourth place. Why don't you like No 6,incidentally? You're the musician,perhaps you can explain what's wrong with it,in you're usual forthright terms.John! ;D I don't play it that much,so I won't be too hurt! I find the way it erupts into 'violence' towards the end clumsy & contrived. It doesn't seem to evolve naturally out of the music that precedes it. There is undoubtedly some very imaginative music & the kind of soundworld that makes HB such an intriguing composer,with all his faults;but a master like Sibelius or Nielsen would have known how to make the transition appear natural & seamless. The effect to my untutored ears is jarring & disjointed,like two broken pieces of a cup or vase that have been glued together & they don't quite fit as well as they should. I think that the fact that's it's origins as a thwarted operatic project may have allot to do with it.
  With all due respect! ;D
I have no problems with the rest of the symphonies on Johan's list and like quite a lot of them but a list of favourites, for me at any rate. should be 2 or 3 works rather than a long list of all those pieces but then again Johan loves Brian. I like him but rate less of his work as highly as some fellow forum chums do. I see that 21 is missing. I like that one but that's probably because I am closer to it than most of the others. We seem to share the top 3 anyway!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 27, 2012, 08:22:31 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 27, 2012, 07:52:21 AMI find the way it erupts into 'violence' towards the end clumsy & contrived. It doesn't seem to evolve naturally out of the music that precedes it....a master like Sibelius or Nielsen would have known how to make the transition appear natural & seamless.

Perhaps it's of my military experience--in which violence could simply erupt out of nowhere, shockingly, taking one completely by surprise--that makes me comfortable (that's not the right word) with Brian's sudden and violent juxtapositions. The music works for me anyway. I'm actually glad he wasn't as transitionally smooth as Sibelius and Nielsen.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on February 27, 2012, 08:32:11 AM
The ones I can't live without, FWIW, and in order

8, 1, 10

closely followed by

6, 7, 12

I love 9, which I also think is one of Brian's most accesible symphonies, but that's also partly because of its place in the trilogy of 'brothers' 8, 9, 10 which to me is the finest of Brian's post-Gothic acheivements (the Gothic is a category of its own, not better, just separate)

3 is dear to me, and, perversely, perhaps I really do find no fault whatsoever in 4, which I admire fully and would defend vigourously. 16 and 27 are wonderful, and there are pages in the last few symphonies which are deeply moving. But it is the first 12 and particularly 1 and 6-10 which I return to most frequently, at the moment. One thing to add though - my very favourite Brian symphonies are often those which have had the best recordings. It follows, doesn't it, that maybe I would find all equally gobsmacking, were they to be presented equally well.

As I said, FWIW.  :)

One day, BTW, I hope for the time to return to this thread fully and engage in some proper old discussion of the music. I am missing it. But I am reading every post.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 27, 2012, 09:24:22 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 27, 2012, 08:22:31 AM
Perhaps it's of my military experience--in which violence could simply erupt out of nowhere, shockingly, taking one completely by surprise--that makes me comfortable (that's not the right word) with Brian's sudden and violent juxtapositions. The music works for me anyway. I'm actually glad he wasn't as transitionally smooth as Sibelius and Nielsen.

Sarge
Which reminds me,I better have another listen to No 6,just in case I've put my foot in it,again! :o

I really would like to expand my list of favourites,a little,to:

   1,3,7 & 10!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 27, 2012, 10:52:17 AM
Interesting contributions! I really should take the time to comment on my choices... but not now.


Luke, you like No. 12, as do I. I now find that I like Newstone's historic performance best. He takes the funeral march very slowly. At first, I didn't like that, preferring Del Mar's Prom performance from 1966. But after some discussion with Malcolm MacDonald (who likes the funeral march to be played as slowly as possible), I decided to give Newstone another chance. Now his tempo makes perfect sense, and the structure of the symphony becomes very satisfying: two slow middle movements surrounded by two faster ones. What do you think?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 27, 2012, 11:02:15 AM
I agree about the Twelfth; I find the Newstone tempi to be very satisfying (though I have never heard the Del Mar performance).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 27, 2012, 12:47:46 PM
Another long review of the Hyperion Gothic (in three parts!) on Musicweb,just in case anyone hasn't seen it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 27, 2012, 12:48:41 PM
I'll have a look!


It's by our very own Brian (Reinhart)!


Just read it - WOW! Congratulations (Havergal) BRIAN (Reinhart)!


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Feb12/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Feb12/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 27, 2012, 02:49:36 PM
Thatsmyboy! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on February 27, 2012, 04:25:09 PM
That is indeed mine! :)

It should keep you lot reading for more than a few minutes ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 27, 2012, 04:40:23 PM
Quote from: Brian on February 27, 2012, 04:25:09 PM
That is indeed mine! :)

It should keep you lot reading for more than a few minutes ;)

As I have posted on your Facebook page, I have sent the link to Malcolm MacDonald for his interest ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 27, 2012, 04:50:56 PM
Okay,after the madness of Ixiom.....I mean,Ixion :o,back to the sanctity (and sanity) of Brian!
Pheeeew!!!! :)

p.s. I did actually quite enjoy it though.....in a way! ??? ::) :-[ :o :-X
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 28, 2012, 12:43:03 PM
Other than Raymond Clarke, are there any other recordings or broadcasts of the Preludes and Fugues?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 28, 2012, 01:51:04 PM
HB 27 being performed in Brum. First time in 30 years.

http://www.thsh.co.uk/event/two-countries-one-voice/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 28, 2012, 02:04:23 PM
Thanks, John! I was there in 1987, for Brian's Third. I don't think I can afford going there now again, just for No. 27...


Look here, WW:
http://www.cameo-classics.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=77&category_id=86&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1 (http://www.cameo-classics.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=77&category_id=86&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1)


I remember the LP. Good performances.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 28, 2012, 03:07:55 PM
You can also download it for less at Amazon,if you prefer. I may,before long. I remember having the original Lp.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 28, 2012, 03:11:35 PM
Whose performances in general do you rate higher, Clarke's or Hill's?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 28, 2012, 03:14:33 PM
Johan will know. I'm afraid I only had the earlier recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 28, 2012, 03:15:01 PM
Raymond Clarke is very precise, but a bit dry (to these ears, at least). I remember that Peter Hill's performances sounded more spectacular in the fugues - but it's been ages, so I can't really know for sure. Let's say they are evenly matched...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 28, 2012, 03:17:09 PM
I guess if I ever get around to buying one I will just go with the cheapest, then!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 28, 2012, 03:20:23 PM
Very sensible!


Cilgwyn - I can't find those downloads of Peter Hill's CD on Amazon. Where are they?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 28, 2012, 03:23:42 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Havergal-Brian-Symphony-Peter-Michaels/dp/B003XV5P6W/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1330474961&sr=8-3-fkmr1

this is a bootleg, right? I can't always tell.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 28, 2012, 03:26:17 PM
Yes. It's a pirated recording of the first performance of the Third.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 28, 2012, 03:33:29 PM
What pieces are on the Hull Youth Symphony Orchestra CDs? I can't find a track listing anywhere...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 28, 2012, 03:36:32 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 28, 2012, 03:20:23 PM
Very sensible!


Cilgwyn - I can't find those downloads of Peter Hill's CD on Amazon. Where are they?
They aren't! :D Silly me,I spotted it earlier,when I was looking for something else. I didn't actually click on the 'cover'. It's the Raymond Clarke. My Lp,of course,was the one with the piano on the front! Hill!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 28, 2012, 03:40:58 PM
Quote from: Winky Willy on Today at 01:33:29 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg605573#msg605573)
What pieces are on the Hull Youth Symphony Orchestra CDs? I can't find a track listing anywhere...



English suite 1 (1902-04) . Doctor Merryheart (1912) . Fantastic variations on an old rhyme (1907) . Festal dance (1907) . In memoriam (1912) . For valour (1902, rev 1906) . Two Herrick songs: Requiem for the rose, The hag (1911) . Burlesque variations on an original theme (1903)
Saint Nicholas Singers; City of Hull Youth Symphony Orchestra, conductor Geoffrey Heald-Smith
Producer David Kent-Watson . City Hall, Hull UK . 14-15 July 1979 [first three works], 15 September 1979 [For valour], 26-27 July 1980 [Burlesque variations]
* Cameo Classics CC9014CD-2 (2CDs)
[previously on Cameo Classics LPs GOCLP 9010,9012,9014]



You'll find everything at
www.havergalbrian.org (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/www.havergalbrian.org)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 28, 2012, 03:43:49 PM
Thanks! I probably should have checked there first!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 28, 2012, 03:47:51 PM
Quote from: Winky Willy on Today at 01:43:49 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg605576#msg605576)
Thanks! I probably should have checked there first!



Yep.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 28, 2012, 03:49:16 PM
ashamed
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 28, 2012, 03:49:57 PM
Bear it like a man.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 28, 2012, 03:51:47 PM
I think I'll go look for the Requiem now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 28, 2012, 03:53:38 PM
You do that. I am saying this day farewell... Night night!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 28, 2012, 03:54:57 PM
Adieu.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 28, 2012, 03:57:08 PM
Nos da! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on February 28, 2012, 04:12:18 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 27, 2012, 12:48:41 PM
I'll have a look!


It's by our very own Brian (Reinhart)!


Just read it - WOW! Congratulations (Havergal) BRIAN (Reinhart)!


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Feb12/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Feb12/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm)

I hope that I am not unduly embarrassing Brian (as in our Brian R.) but the response I got from Malcolm MacDonald to the Musicweb review reads as follows:

"That's an impressive piece of work. He clearly has a future as a writer on music."

High praise indeed from the greatest living authority on Havergal Brian :)  And well-deserved too :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 28, 2012, 04:20:41 PM
Very nice, Colin!


(Back to zzzzzzzzz....)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 28, 2012, 07:08:03 PM
Since I've started reading and posting here I've learn about the existence of the old radio recordings and have downloaded most of them. Like most of the posters here I tend to agree that in many cases they are superior to more recent recordings!

I was listening to the Mackerras 2 the other day and was blown away by the scherzo, like the rest of the broadcast, much superior to the Naxos recording. Does anyone know if Mackerras did actually get to use 16 horns, or did he cut to down to 8 as Rowe does (or was forced to)?

Another random thought: I was listening to Elegy this morning and thinking that this was the least elegiac elegy ever written (it's a another tough-minded march movement). I think one of things that attracts me to Brian's music is the fact that there isn't a moment in it of self-pity or wallowing in lacrimae rerum. Brian's music depicts a world full of sorrow and violence, but it itself is never sorrowful or violent for the sake of it.

Finally, my favourite HB symphonies: 1 [oh, I still have the Curro recording to listen to!], 6, 8, 10, 15, 16, 17, 18, 22, 23, 24, 27, 30, 31, 32

If I had to whittle that down it would go: 1, 6, 8, 16, 32
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 29, 2012, 01:13:51 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 28, 2012, 07:08:03 PM
If I had to whittle that down it would go: 1, 6, 8, 16, 32

Interesting. That would be my Top Five.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 29, 2012, 03:46:44 AM
1,3,7 & 10
And maybe 5?
3 is my favourite,followed by No 7!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on February 29, 2012, 08:13:08 AM
1, 3, 5, 12, 32

(this might change after listening to all these archive recordings)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 01, 2012, 03:01:04 AM
Quote from: Winky Willy on February 29, 2012, 08:13:08 AM
1, 3, 5, 12, 32

(this might change after listening to all these archive recordings)
No room for No.10? Three very good and different versions to have a go at. Amazed.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on March 01, 2012, 08:01:49 AM
I admit with shame that I have yet to listen to 10, though I have the Pope recording from the HB website.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 01, 2012, 11:10:13 AM
Quote from: Winky Willy on March 01, 2012, 08:01:49 AM
I admit with shame that I have yet to listen to 10, though I have the Pope recording from the HB website.
Buy this download for $5. The very first commercial recording of Brian's music in the entire galaxy. Truly historically significant but also in very good sound. Everyone should have this - but I'm biased of course!! :D
http://www.klassichaus.us/Havergal-Brian.php
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on March 01, 2012, 12:39:07 PM
Wait, were you in the LSSO?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 01, 2012, 12:40:57 PM
Quote from: Winky Willy on Today at 22:39:07 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg606212#msg606212)
Wait, were you in the LSSO?



:o  Don't get him started!
[he was]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 01, 2012, 01:13:19 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 01, 2012, 12:40:57 PM
Quote from: Winky Willy on Today at 22:39:07 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg606212#msg606212)
Wait, were you in the LSSO?



:o 
Don't get him started! [he was]

Once upon a time ...zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on March 01, 2012, 02:30:19 PM
in a galaxy far, far away...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 02, 2012, 03:53:25 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on March 01, 2012, 02:30:19 PM
in a galaxy far, far away...
...........a member of the HBS awaited the Nov/Dec newsletter number 218. Have I mislaid the thing or hasn't it been issued yet?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 02, 2012, 03:58:36 AM
#218 was issued. I got the e-version on 24 December 2011...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 02, 2012, 04:08:06 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 02, 2012, 03:53:25 AM
...........a member of the HBS awaited the Nov/Dec newsletter number 218. Have I mislaid the thing or hasn't it been issued yet?
I had seen it but must have lost it somewhere. Thanks for the copy Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on March 03, 2012, 02:07:40 AM
219 will hopefully be on its merry way today after a minor delay.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 06, 2012, 05:33:26 AM
Received this brief comment via email last night from a rather well known record reviewer/music writer:
Just listening to the secure toned and clean sounding Symph Brevis - wonderful to hear this work - as if for the first time - impressive in the more intimate moments as in 4:58 as well as in the grand and gaunt moments 7:19 - deeply impressive.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 06, 2012, 07:22:21 AM
I agree. Curt Timmons has done an excellent job.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 06, 2012, 10:05:03 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 06, 2012, 07:22:21 AM
I agree. Curt Timmons has done an excellent job.
He likes Bruckner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 06, 2012, 10:05:14 AM
No funny names here,thank goodness! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 07, 2012, 07:18:41 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 06, 2012, 10:05:14 AM
No funny names here,thank goodness! :)

What about Havergal?  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 07, 2012, 07:36:59 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 07, 2012, 07:18:41 AM
What about Havergal?  8)

Shhh....don't mention the elephant in the room  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on March 07, 2012, 07:39:08 AM
Havergallll Llllangggaaard
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 07, 2012, 11:51:51 AM
Silly, Silly Boys :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 08, 2012, 07:31:58 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 07, 2012, 11:51:51 AM
Silly, Silly Boys :o
You know you love it really,Dundonnell! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 08, 2012, 09:21:56 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 08, 2012, 07:31:58 AM
You know you love it really,Dundonnell! ;D
Dundonnell strikes me as being a slightly silly name. I bet he's a very silly boy indeed. :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 08, 2012, 09:23:14 AM
Not especially silly:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Mar12/Brian_LSSO.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 08, 2012, 10:35:22 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 08, 2012, 09:23:14 AM
Not especially silly:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Mar12/Brian_LSSO.htm

The only 'silly' aspect of a name like Leicestershire for us, foreigners, is the fact that you need four extended syllables for the spelling of a simple (in pronunciation) three-syllable name. "Lestəshə" would have done. ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 08, 2012, 12:35:17 PM
Quote from: Christo on March 08, 2012, 10:35:22 AM
The only 'silly' aspect of a name like Leicestershire for us, foreigners, is the fact that you need four extended syllables for the spelling of a simple (in pronunciation) three-syllable name. "Lestəshə" would have done. ::)
HI Christo. I never realised you were a Scot :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 08, 2012, 02:28:37 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 08, 2012, 09:21:56 AM
Dundonnell strikes me as being a slightly silly name. I bet he's a very silly boy indeed. :D

Dundonnell is the username I have given myself. It is the name of a small village in Wester Ross in the north-west of Scotland. The village lies at the foot of a great mountain called An Teallach and at the northern edge of the Dundonnell Forest, a large wilderness area(one of the largest in Britain) across which I hiked for three days some years ago. The Dundonnell Estate belongs to Sir Tim Rice these days ;D

It is not, therefore, for me a 'silly name' ;D Nor am I either 'silly' or, sadly, any longer a 'boy' :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 08, 2012, 02:42:20 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 08, 2012, 02:28:37 PM
Dundonnell is the username I have given myself. It is the name of a small village in Wester Ross in the north-west of Scotland. The village lies at the foot of a great mountain called An Teallach and at the northern edge of the Dundonnell Forest, a large wilderness area(one of the largest in Britain) across which I hiked for three days some years ago. The Dundonnell Estate belongs to Sir Tim Rice these days ;D

It is not, therefore, for me a 'silly name' ;D Nor am I either 'silly' or, sadly, any longer a 'boy' :(
I bet you are still a boy at heart. I am once I strip away the hagard weather beaten and crumbly exterior :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 08, 2012, 03:01:13 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 08, 2012, 02:42:20 PM
I bet you are still a boy at heart. I am once I strip away the hagard weather beaten and crumbly exterior :D

Oh...that's true ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 08, 2012, 10:08:33 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 08, 2012, 12:35:17 PM
HI Christo. I never realised you were a Scot :D

Hard to imagine, perhaps, but there are more foreigners than just Scots.  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 09, 2012, 12:41:32 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 08, 2012, 10:08:33 PM
Hard to imagine, perhaps, but there are more foreigners than just Scots.  8)
Oh no, is this true? We will be getting Dutch people on here next. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 09, 2012, 02:21:41 AM
Dundonnell sounds like an interesting place to explore,if you enjoy travel! :( I must admit,I actually thought it might be a character from the Harry Potter books,at first,which,incidentally,I can't stand! I then found it was a real place (unlike Middle Earth!) from reading you're posts. As to Cilgwyn,it's just a place I lived near,in North Pembrokeshire & of which I have particularly happy memories.
Haven't been back to the place in years,alas. From what I gather,it has changed,but not for the better! :(
I'm also a bit too old for tree houses,now! :( ;D

NB: It's a good job I didn't live near Bognor Regis. 'Bognor' would be a terrible user name. People would call me 'Bog',for short! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 09, 2012, 04:44:56 PM
Is this self deprecatory week,or what?!!! :( :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on March 09, 2012, 07:11:34 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 09, 2012, 02:21:41 AM
Dundonnell sounds like an interesting place to explore,if you enjoy travel! :( I must admit,I actually thought it might be a character from the Harry Potter books,at first,which,incidentally,I can't stand! I then found it was a real place (unlike Middle Earth!) from reading you're posts. As to Cilgwyn,it's just a place I lived near,in North Pembrokeshire & of which I have particularly happy memories.
Haven't been back to the place in years,alas. From what I gather,it has changed,but not for the better! :(
I'm also a bit too old for tree houses,now! :( ;D

NB: It's a good job I didn't live near Bognor Regis. 'Bognor' would be a terrible user name. People would call me 'Bog',for short! :(

Or even worse, see Regis, assume the proper nickname is "Reeg" (that's phonetical to show the long e) and assume you're a fan of Regis Philbin.  (Do you folks on the other side of the pond even know who he is?)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on March 16, 2012, 10:58:35 AM
Havergal Brian
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 16, 2012, 12:52:52 PM
Quote from: Winky Willy on March 16, 2012, 10:58:35 AM
Havergal Brian

What about him ??? ???

He has no place in this thread ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 16, 2012, 01:08:27 PM
 ;D Recent or new members,please note,Dundonnell is joking,of course! ;D
Delius,the Nicks (?),Rider Haggard,Seinfeld,Messiaen,Bruckner & Tolkein,maybe;but Havergal Brian in the Havergal Brian thread?!!!! :o The very thought! >:D
Oh,and Rubbra in the Roy Harris thread (it makes his thread look longer,anyway! ;D)
(What is this? Alice in Wonderland?!)

You were joking,weren't you,Dundonnell?!! :o

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 16, 2012, 01:37:54 PM
I have been known to make jokes ;D

Usually only one a year though ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 16, 2012, 01:38:39 PM
The next BIG HB news will be Mark Stone's complete recording of Havergal Brian's songs,I presume?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 16, 2012, 01:39:25 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 16, 2012, 01:37:54 PM
I have been known to make jokes ;D

Usually only one a year though ;D
So,no more this year? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 16, 2012, 04:09:28 PM
The night train is bringing me back to Delft, and I see there has been some life in this thread again. I may have been away as I am rather busy at the moment, but for me Brian hasn't been absent.

It's fascinating to listen to the historic performances of symphonies 8-12 consecutively. The chief glory of the Schwartz (spelling?) recording of the Eighth is a violent outburst in Passacaglia I, where you can hear the trombones much better than in the Groves. The concluding bars of the Ninth are taken slightly slower than in, again, the Groves, which works very well. About the Tenth I have already said a lot - I think everything after the storm is excellent. No. 11 under Newstone is the best performance we have. And the Twelfth has the best funeral march, very slow and frighteningly inexorable.

As for new recordings, the latest HBS Newsletter promised us exciting news from the recordings front...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 16, 2012, 05:16:28 PM
I was wondering where you were. It was like the Landlord of the pub had gone missing! :o ;D Are you in the 'night train',now? That sounds very evocative!
I prefer the Stanley Pope tenth to the Dutton performance,in a way. I finally got to listen to it after I got a big load of cd-r's off a nice seller on ebay! :) It was well worth the wait. The coupling I chose was No 27,by the way.
I'll need to listen to it a bit more before I can say more,but this is,in my untutored opinion,my favourite performance after the LSSO one. It may be a bit rough in places,perhaps,but that just seems to add to the effectiveness of it.

I must make a cd-r of the others now. But not right before bed,maybe!
(Dundonnell's been getting me 'into' Rubbra!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 16, 2012, 05:32:26 PM
Actually,comparing you to a pub landlord sounds a bit impolite! I WAS thinking of the sort of nice,quiet village hostelries we had in Wales,years ago,not the boozed up dives of today,rest assured! And I have a can of Belgian lager in one hand (it IS the weekend!). I have no idea how it got there! :o
  The Pope tenth has an elemental power to it. I love it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 16, 2012, 06:43:53 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2012, 05:16:28 PM
I was wondering where you were. It was like the Landlord of the pub had gone missing! :o ;D Are you in the 'night train',now? That sounds very evocative!
I prefer the Stanley Pope tenth to the Dutton performance,in a way. I finally got to listen to it after I got a big load of cd-r's off a nice seller on ebay! :) It was well worth the wait. The coupling I chose was No 27,by the way.
I'll need to listen to it a bit more before I can say more,but this is,in my untutored opinion,my favourite performance after the LSSO one. It may be a bit rough in places,perhaps,but that just seems to add to the effectiveness of it.

I must make a cd-r of the others now. But not right before bed,maybe!
(Dundonnell's been getting me 'into' Rubbra!)

R...U...B...B...R...A ;D ;D

It's time Johan listened to more music by OTHER British Composers, anyway ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 16, 2012, 11:44:44 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 16, 2012, 04:09:28 PM
The night train is bringing me back to Delft, and I see there has been some life in this thread again. I may have been away as I am rather busy at the moment, but for me Brian hasn't been absent.

It's fascinating to listen to the historic performances of symphonies 8-12 consecutively. The chief glory of the Schwartz (spelling?) recording of the Eighth is a violent outburst in Passacaglia I, where you can hear the trombones much better than in the Groves. The concluding bars of the Ninth are taken slightly slower than in, again, the Groves, which works very well. About the Tenth I have already said a lot - I think everything after the storm is excellent. No. 11 under Newstone is the best performance we have. And the Twelfth has the best funeral march, very slow and frighteningly inexorable.

As for new recordings, the latest HBS Newsletter promised us exciting news from the recordings front...
It's Rudolf Schwarz. Very decent conductor indeed.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 16, 2012, 11:48:43 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 16, 2012, 05:16:28 PM
I was wondering where you were. It was like the Landlord of the pub had gone missing! :o ;D Are you in the 'night train',now? That sounds very evocative!
I prefer the Stanley Pope tenth to the Dutton performance,in a way. I finally got to listen to it after I got a big load of cd-r's off a nice seller on ebay! :) It was well worth the wait. The coupling I chose was No 27,by the way.
I'll need to listen to it a bit more before I can say more,but this is,in my untutored opinion,my favourite performance after the LSSO one. It may be a bit rough in places,perhaps,but that just seems to add to the effectiveness of it.

I must make a cd-r of the others now. But not right before bed,maybe!
(Dundonnell's been getting me 'into' Rubbra!)
Do you mean the Pope is rough? I think it is absolutely top class in terms of orchestral playing. It's the sluggish tempi that let it down for me. The LSSO is certainly rough in places but has a good feel to it and bags of atmosphere.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 17, 2012, 01:06:17 AM
Barliman Butterbur here...

@Dundonnell I didn't report it, but I have been listening to Simpson lately, symphonies 1-5. I intend to do the whole cycle. Though I will never love his music as much as I do Brian's, I do like what I hear. There is something Bach-like about his music, in the severity, and in the intellectual power. His music deserves (and repays) many hearings.

@John, cilgwyn The LSSO remains unbeaten in the Tenth, but Pope is a close second. The 'problem' with Brabbins in this symphony (and in the first movement of No. 30, too) is that he is too no-nonsense. I think a Brian conductor must have a feel for what is weirdly wonderful and visionary about his music. Also, the right tempo is of the essence. The opening of the Tenth is perfect in the LSSO performance, whereas Brabbins is too fast and Pope too slow. Very tricky business, this. It can ruin everything, when you get it wrong.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 17, 2012, 06:44:09 AM
Delighted to hear that you have been listening to Robert Simpson, Johan :)

You "will never love his music as much as I do Brian's" ;D  I suppose that IS very improbable but "never" is always a dangerous word to use ;D  However, "love" and Simpson are tricky things perhaps to reconcile anyway ::)

Listening again to all the Rubbra symphonies-thanks Cilgwyn :)- now these ARE symphonies to love. No.6 is on at the moment and I am just dumbfounded at its mystical beauty...and NO.. Havergal never gets there ;D

When I recall that dreadful, dreadful comment of Malcolm's in Volume 2 I positively seethe with anger and indignation >:( >:( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 17, 2012, 06:55:08 AM
When I have finished listening to Simpson, Edmund Rubbra's symphonies will get the same treatment. I know the Fifth very well, with its haunting slow movement (which I still think comes off best in the Schönzeler recording). The others still remain to be discovered, though. I listened to the Seventh once, and the Overture Resurgam. But Rubbra deserves better.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 17, 2012, 07:08:39 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 17, 2012, 06:55:08 AM
When I have finished listening to Simpson, Edmund Rubbra's symphonies will get the same treatment. I know the Fifth very well, with its haunting slow movement (which I still think comes off best in the Schönzeler recording). The others still remain to be discovered, though. I listened to the Seventh once, and the Overture Resurgam. But Rubbra deserves better.

Good Heavens :o  I kind of assumed that you knew them.

What a treat lies in store...but remember they are "slow burners" ;D No.1 is over-orchestrated but from then on they just get better and better imho. But you have to immerse yourself in the Rubbra soundworld and it is a world which is unique. I have already written enough on here to try to explain my fascination for and love of Rubbra's music :) :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 17, 2012, 07:19:13 AM
And just remember,you won't be hearing any Rubbra jokes in the pub! I was going to try one,the other day,but an Englishman,an Irishman & a Scotsman walked in & I lost my nerve! :o ;D

Mind you the York Bowen jokes keep 'em rolling!


Just remembered you're a Scot,Dundonnell! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on March 17, 2012, 07:46:36 AM
My favourite Simpsons are nos 4, 6 and 9. Whenever I hear 6, I always think that the tutti four-chord progression in the middle of the work is a tribute to the rock-like four-chord progression that's almost at the close of Brian 16. They seem to occupy the same universe, and Simpson's harmonic motion seems to echo Brian's. Great works both.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 17, 2012, 07:50:59 AM
Now that this thread has turned to a Brian+Rubbra+Simpson thread, and I have been listening to Rubbra probably more than any other symphonist in the past few months, I am reminded to get back to Brian. For some reason, #3 has always been thorny for me. I will try again to love it, the way I do the others that I have. I don't see #3 discussed a lot.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 17, 2012, 08:05:41 AM
@Martyn The Simpson Sixth is next on my list...
@springrite The first performance of #3, under Stanley Pope, is more persuasive than the Hyperion recording... You can find it at the Unsung Composers forum (but you'll have to join first). The sound is not as good, of course (though the Hyperion isn't that superb, either...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 17, 2012, 08:29:05 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 16, 2012, 11:48:43 PM
Do you mean the Pope is rough? I think it is absolutely top class in terms of orchestral playing. It's the sluggish tempi that let it down for me. The LSSO is certainly rough in places but has a good feel to it and bags of atmosphere.
Actually,I think I'm the one who was a bit 'rough'! :( Although the Belgian lager was,by contrast,nice & smooth! :) I need to listen to it again. It would be nice to put the 10-12 downloads on one cd-r.
Actually,I'll do that today!

"...bags of atmosphere." Yes,definately!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 17, 2012, 10:07:11 AM
A few weeks ago I asked Malcolm MacDonald how much HB had influenced Robert Simpson's own music. Malcolm, of course, knew Simpson very well. His response was the influence was  less than we might imagine, certainly at what Malcolm called "an overt level". Simpson's writing for the brass undoubtedly is influenced by Brian's-which he profoundly admired. He was also inspired by the example of a composer determined to plough his own compositional furrow regardless of fashion.

However-and this came as something of a surprise to me-Malcolm said that though Simpson respected Brian's symphonies, only a few really "strongly appealed" to him. The Tenth Symphony was his favourite because of his admiration of "HB's evocation of (in Bob's words, more or less) 'the part of the mind that goes on calmly watching yourself, whatever is happening'".
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 17, 2012, 10:47:02 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on March 17, 2012, 10:07:11 AM
A few weeks ago I asked Malcolm MacDonald how much HB had influenced Robert Simpson's own music. Malcolm, of course, knew Simpson very well. His response was the influence was  less than we might imagine, certainly at what Malcolm called "an overt level". Simpson's writing for the brass undoubtedly is influenced by Brian's-which he profoundly admired. He was also inspired by the example of a composer determined to plough his own compositional furrow regardless of fashion.

However-and this came as something of a surprise to me-Malcolm said that though Simpson respected Brian's symphonies, only a few really "strongly appealed" to him. The Tenth Symphony was his favourite because of his admiration of "HB's evocation of (in Bob's words, more or less) 'the part of the mind that goes on calmly watching yourself, whatever is happening'".
I remember that 'quote' on my Lp of Simpson's 3rd. Simpson was referring to his own symphony in that instance. I remember the idea appealed to me at the time. My mother thought the symphony was very angry sounding,but there was a 'stillness' there,which revealed itself,at times. It was the first Simpson symphony I ever heard & it's so long since I heard it,I'd better stop there! ;D


Actually,I think No 3 is dedicated to Brian??? (Yes,it is! :))

I burned the cd of those archive Brian No's 10-12,just now. No 11,of course,was on the Dutton cd,so I had to 'rip' that,as they say! :o
Haven't got to No 12,yet!

Stop press: I love Newstones Eleventh. The Naxos did little for me. I think this is one of my favourite Brian symphonies now. And it sounds even better immeadiately after No 10!

Ignoring Dundonnells advice just to save money :o :( I chose to buy the Chandos cd of Rubbra's Symphonies 2 & 6 from an ebay seller for £7 post free! Haven't seen anything about No 6,here*. I MUST look in the Rubbra thread! ;D If this rebounds on me I suppose it serves me right! :(

*Wrong again! :( Dundonnell: (above post) "...No 6 is on at the moment and I am just dumbfounded at it's mystical beauty"! :)

I see that my Lp version of Simpson's 3rd is now available on the NMC label. Hm! I wouldn't mind hearing that performance again.

Just finished my cd burn of the 'archive' Brian 10-12. What a trio! Back on repeat,now!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 17, 2012, 01:49:22 PM
Brian's Gothic is making wave(let)s in Germany - the Hyperion recording is one of the 'CD tips' on a classical German radio station. The first article I link to gives excerpts from a short review which you can find under the second link. I shall translate the salient bits later.


http://blog.codaex.de/2012/03/havergal-brian-the-gothic-symphony-des-bbc-concert-orchestra-unter-martyn-brabbins-als-cd-tipp-bei-br-klassik/ (http://blog.codaex.de/2012/03/havergal-brian-the-gothic-symphony-des-bbc-concert-orchestra-unter-martyn-brabbins-als-cd-tipp-bei-br-klassik/)


http://www.br.de/radio/br-klassik/themen/cd-tipps/cd-tipp-brian-gothic-symphony-brabbins100.html (http://www.br.de/radio/br-klassik/themen/cd-tipps/cd-tipp-brian-gothic-symphony-brabbins100.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 17, 2012, 02:04:06 PM
Good! :) I was trying to fill in,while listening to cd-r's of 10-15 in sequence.
I look forward to you're translations. My teenage liking for german language operetta with dialogue,doesn't seemed to have helped too much! The last time I tried to learn German via a s/h pbk,which contained useful phrases like 'Hier ist die Berlin Wall!'* :( didn't do much help! :(

*an approximation,please note! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 17, 2012, 02:32:54 PM
'Apocalyptic vision' certainly stands out!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on March 17, 2012, 07:25:02 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 17, 2012, 02:04:06 PM
Good! :) I was trying to fill in,while listening to cd-r's of 10-15 in sequence.
I look forward to you're translations. My teenage liking for german language operetta with dialogue,doesn't seemed to have helped too much! The last time I tried to learn German via a s/h pbk,which contained useful phrases like 'Hier ist die Berlin Wall!'* :( didn't do much help! :(

*an approximation,please note! :(

I took a couple of years of German in high school.  I got with the language, although the grammar easy enough to grasp was, never far.  Most annoying was that I never the German for simple thinks such as "Where is the bathroom" learned.

And now I suggest you read Mark Twain's phillipic on the German Language if you've never read it before.  The above sentences should after that easily enough untangle.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 18, 2012, 03:19:09 AM
I think re Brian and Robert Simpson, Simpson was too young to influence Brian much, and by the time Simpson got to know Brian's work he had already composed his first symphonies and string quartets and his style was formed too. I think Brian gave him advice on orchestration. They were both very brassy composers because they both independently knew British brass band music.

I think they both respected each other's works because they both saw that their respective styles came out of the core symphonic tradition. In Haydn, at the beginning of the symphony, you get variations, fugues, palindromes, sonata form used unconventionally before the rules had even been written, monothematic movements or movements dominated by a single mode (i.e. Simpson type music) AND discontinuities, musical jokes, folk-type material, abrupt changes of mood (i.e. Brian characteristics). But what you get in Haydn is mastery of musical movement, and that is what Brian and Simpson both have, in their different ways.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2012, 03:52:51 AM
The essential part of the German review is
Apocalyptic Visions
The Faustian traits Brian shares with Mahler's Eighth, at least in the first, purely orchestral part of this six-movement symphony, as the second part consists of an enormous, rather secular setting of the Te Deum. One could call Brian's musical language polystilistic in the best sense of the word, where echoes of Gregorian chant and Elizabethan church music meet those of Berlioz, Strauss or Varèse. In his boldest moments Brian works with dissonant harmony and in the exorbitantly difficult choral part with polyphonic cluster chords. We also get weird instrumental effects and passages with not a lot of substance to them. Two things stand out: apart from a few diabolical excesses, Brian uses his gigantic apparatus with sometimes chamber-like restraint and differentiation. And it bespeaks a blatant nihilism (also caused, perhaps, by the traumas of World War I) to discover in the unbroken hymn of praise of the Te Deum text such abysses and dislocations as Brian here makes drastically audible with apocalyptic visions of the Last Judgement and prayers for salvation and pity.

In all, Brian's 'Gothic' leaves a grand impression, not in the least by the solid quartet of soloists, the assembled choirs and the two orchestras under the unshakeably masterful direction of Martyn Brabbins. The highly informative booklet, which covers all essential aspects of the composer and the work, deserves special mention.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2012, 09:45:56 AM
Interesting how the review alternates between "diabolical excesses" and "chamber like restraint!" Well.you can't have everything,can you?!!! ;D Still,taken as a whole,it's a pretty positive review,although,unlike,Brian's Gothic symphony itself,somewhat lacking in depth! ;D

I've made another cd-r now,of the 'archive' recordings of Symphonies 8-10. I took No 9 from the Dutton cd,of course. When I put it on,after the 'Roy Harris fan club' ;D finishes,this will be the first time I will have listened to the Schwarz eighth.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2012, 12:21:23 PM
The review doesn't add anything to our knowledge, I agree. What it does is show us how Brian's Gothic comes across to this uninitiated German, which is interesting.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2012, 12:51:52 PM
Listening through a pile of Roy Harris symphonies,then trying to analyse my responses to this,to put it politely,controversial composer,then moving onto my cd-r of the 'archive' recordings of No's 8-10,only served to underline the sheer variety of Brian's output. Like Harris,Brian has an immeadiately identifiable soundworld,but unlike Harris,some of whose other symphonies,particularly No 6,I do actually quite like,Brian always seems to be moving forward. There's never any question of Brian being stuck in a creative rut. Every symphony is different. Just listening through No's 10-12,took me no time at all,but the range of mood and expression is vast.
Very,very satisfying. Although,to be fair to Harris,comparisons are always rather unfair! ;D This is THE best way to listen to Brian,though,really. In fact,I haven't enjoyed No's 8 & 9 so much,in ages! Even better,thanks to this technology,I feel I am finally beginning to really crack the later ones. No's 10-12,heard in sequence,have never sounded this gripping!
  Another traversal of No's 10-12 then,followed by my cd-r of 13-15! :)

Wonderful! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2012, 12:59:38 PM
I agree! I have been listening to the historic recordings of symphonies 8-12 a lot  (I am doing so now, too), and their variety and power never cease to thrill me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2012, 01:12:22 PM
Marvellous! These have done wonders for my Brian appreciation. Not that I didn't enjoy him before,of course! Listening to No 9,immeadiately after No 8,reminded me of the excitement generated in my young mind (all those years ago) by that tremendous upbeat ending. It's so exciting. Almost Last Night of the Prom,in that wonderful surge of sheer orchestral power right at the end! I know it's not everyones favourite Brian symphony,but it made me remember just why I played my old emi Lp of 8 & 9,so many times,and not just for No 8! Wow! :)

Incidentally,this was the Del Mar 9. I seem to remember you weren't so keen on this performance? But it sounded great in sequence!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2012, 01:15:41 PM
O no, I like it! I don't like his tempo in Doctor Merryheart. I think his conclusion of the Ninth is terrific - his tempo is just a tad broader than in the Groves and this makes those final bars both weighty and joyful. Brian at his most uplifting.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2012, 03:07:41 PM
Sorry,I remember now! I was thinking,there wasn't much wrong with this performance! :o  ;D Listening to them in sequence like this,really DOES help. No's 13-15,sound almost equally gripping now. I think this is ONLY my third traversal of them,on repeat! :) The variable quality of some of the recordings does little to impede my enjoyment.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2012, 03:08:30 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on Today at 00:07:41 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg612111#msg612111)
Sorry,I remember now! I was thinking,there wasn't much wrong with this performance! :o ;D Listening to them in sequence like this,really DOES help. No's 13-15,sound almost equally gripping now. I think this is ONLY my third traversal of them,on repeat! :) The variable quality of some of the recordings does little to impede my enjoyment.



I have reached No. 14... !!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2012, 03:22:49 PM
I'm back on No 13!  :) There are some wonderful sonorities here. And MM doesn't like this? ??? ::)
No 14 again,now. This has got to have one of his best openings?!! I notice someone on Youtube referring to it as one of his worst symphonies! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2012, 03:26:25 PM
I love No. 13, and not only that glorious lyrical outburst. Just finished No. 14 - that Coda is epic and a bit frightening, like a victorious army marching into a city. No. 15 has just begun...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2012, 03:30:47 PM
 ;D I just caught you're comment there! ;D So the Youtube No 14 is really Downes? Is the so called 'Humboldt' taken off an Aries incarnation ?(I'm listening to one of you're uploads,on my cd-r,by the way. I just put Brian 14 into the search engine).

No,it was the Wales SO conducted by Colin Wilson! So whoever uploaded it to Youtube attributed it to another made up orchestra! ::)

Talk about confusing! ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2012, 03:42:43 PM
See what you mean about the coda of 14!
No 15! Now,somebody had a good tape recorder (or source) here. The sound quality really broadens out!

The only problem with these cordless headphones,is I can't always see the cd player,to see exactly where I am,track wise! :(

Wait a minute,this must be a Naxos! :o ;D
My Brian downloads are scattered all over my hard drives. I am afraid I just added this to the cd-r.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2012, 03:52:48 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2012, 04:02:14 PM
This reminds me of one of those tv ads where someone has to pick out their favourite washing powder brand!

Me: It's a Naxos recording? Really! Oh no,it can't be?!!!!! :o ??? :-[
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2012, 04:04:26 PM
I'd be rubbishing* the Naxos Gothic............and then they'd take the blindfold off!!! :o ??? :-[ :(

*get it right!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2012, 04:08:10 PM
I think Pope is best in No. 15 as he is in No. 17 (playing now, and one of my favourite Brian symphonies).


I suggest you report this morning to your local GP for a case of severe Naxositis...  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2012, 04:09:05 PM
Going back to No's 13-15. I think No 13 is probably my favourite,if I had to pick one. It packs in such an extroadinary range. But they're all equally enthralling,of course.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2012, 04:18:16 PM
I will make a cd of 16 & 17 next. I don't know whether another will fit on? They are long-ish,aren't they? The later symphonies have always been a bit of a tough nut for me,I must admit,but hearing them consecutively like this really IS opening them up. For the first time ever,I'm starting to feel that some of these later symphonies actually could be even more rewarding than some of his earlier symphonies.

Regarding blindfold tests: It could be very embarassing if I couldn't tell the difference between the Naxos & the other cds of the Gothic! I'm pretty sure I would be able to though. At least,I hope so! :( :( :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2012, 04:21:22 PM
I am now well into No. 18, another favourite... No. 16 is 17:41 and No. 17 14:32 (Pope) and 13:27 (Naxos).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2012, 04:30:48 PM
I will have to go though my downloads. Allot of them are on an external drive,which is not connected now. The Naxos cd with 15 on it could have been on my computer! ::) Or maybe,I haven't got the Pope? Is it one of Dundonnell's?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2012, 04:31:58 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on Today at 01:30:48 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg612127#msg612127)
I will have to go though my downloads. Allot of them are on an external drive,which is not connected now. The Naxos cd with 15 on it could have been on my computer! ::) Or maybe,I haven't got the Pope? Is it one of Dundonnell's?



Yep...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2012, 04:53:24 PM
Ok,that's sorted! ::) Meanwhile,one freshly made cd-r of Symphonies 16-19,literally,well just about,hot off the press!
No's 20 + will have to wait until tomorrow. This has been very rewarding!

And,I'll go and pop that one on now! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2012, 04:54:47 PM
Indeed. I am now listening to No. 20 - it really is much larger in feel than nos 18 and 19.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2012, 05:01:34 PM
I really DO feel like I've finally cracked these symphonies. It feels like they're finally giving up they're secrets. Of course,there's more to it than that,but suddenly they feel as approachable as some of the earlier symphonies. Some even more so?!!!! ??? ::) :)

Strange!!! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2012, 05:05:47 PM
Not strange at all. Rubbra may be a 'slow burner', but so is Brian... I have been listening to 13 symphonies consecutively tonight (8-20), and every one of them has outstanding moments. Tomorrow I'll proceed with the Concerto for Orchestra, the Cello Concerto and Symphony No. 21...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2012, 05:21:21 PM
But it does feel as if I've suddenly cracked open some really tough safe. It's too late to think of a really adequate comparison,but it is as if the craggy outer shell has fallen away & I'm really beginning to see & enjoy what's inside. What is suprising too,is just how lyrical & approachable the interior is. In fact,I would go so far as to say,what I'm hearing is actually more rewarding & enjoyable than some of the more outwardly accessible earlier symphonies.
I'm certainly not struggling any more!

Unfortunately,there is a problem with my burn of No 16. It broke off suddenly. No 17 is okay. Too late to sort out now!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2012, 05:24:46 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on Today at 02:21:21 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg612142#msg612142)
But it does feel as if I've suddenly cracked open some really tough safe. It's too late to think of a really adequate comparison,but it is as if the craggy outer shell has fallen away & I'm really beginning to see & enjoy what's inside. What is suprising too,is just how lyrical & approachable the interior is. In fact,I would go so far as to say,what I'm hearing is actually more rewarding & enjoyable than some of the more outwardly accessible earlier symphonies.
I'm certainly not struggling any more!



I've had that experience a lot with Brian. But after the struggle, the music is as natural as can be. His language holds no secrets more for me.


>
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 18, 2012, 05:21:21 PM
Unfortunately,there is a problem with my burn of No 16. It broke off suddenly. No 17 is okay. Too late to sort out now!


Pity. Indeed - too late. I'm off to bed... Till next time.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 19, 2012, 01:58:05 PM
My apologies,Johan. I am having some trouble with my GMG account. I only just saw you're message & what was in it. Thank you for this! I downloaded Opera (the browser) & unfortunately the email given in my profile is now defunct.To make matters worse,I seemed to have copied down the password incorrectly at some time & am unable to change my details. Unlike some sites there seems to be no way of contacting an administrator! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 19, 2012, 02:01:19 PM
The Administrator is Rob. You can email him here under the name of Dungeon Master...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 19, 2012, 03:00:28 PM
Thank you. Talking about joined up writing! :( I ony discovered this after downloading Opera,which I understand you use,so I decided to try it out again. As it turned out it's a crummy wireless router,that's been slowing me down. I am now back on ye olde wired modem & I'm back to speed! :o

Going back to Brian! ;D No 16 ended after about 10 mins! :( I shall have to check to see if something went wrong when I originally downloaded it. Or start my next cd-r compilation with No 17! I suppose,I am pretty familiar with No 16. Thanks to the famous Lyrita recording it is one of the most well known ones,I suppose. I just fancied hearing it in sequence. Something,I've been droning on about doing for a while,as you know,but various things have got in the way of me doing it until now. One of them being my dislike of downloads & cd-r's,but I seem to be overcoming that now. Cd's compilations that I can make up mysell? What's wrong with that?! ;D I already have cds of symphonies 6 & 7 and another of the Holmes Violin Concerto & No 5! But there's still something about a cd & you can play it on even the oldest and dodgiest cd player,can't you! And there are a few here! :o

I am currently using cdburner xp! My cd-r's kept stopping after each track. Cdburner lets you burn without pauses, This solved the problem. Of course there may be a better cd burner out there that I am unaware of!? ::) This one IS very easy to use! ;D

Listening to those late symphonies I can only wish that a crack team like Myer Fredman*,the Lpo & Lyrita were able to record them today. I notice a reviewer of the Lyrita cd on Amazon expressing his belief that No 16 is Brian's greatest after the Gothic! :o Also,(and I don't know whether or not to believe everything I read there,but Brian WAS very well read) that when Brian wrote No 16,he was reading Herodutus's account of The Battle of Thermopylae! :o

Myer Fredman b.January 29th 1932. The same age as my parents! :)







Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 19, 2012, 03:25:29 PM
I have all my Brian on my hard drive. Today I made a playlist with everything Brian wrote between symphonies No. 6 and 32, including concerti, overtures and opera fragments, and just listened to all the openings. Those of symphonies 8, 10, 18, 22 and 27 struck me the most. And a work I now rated more highly was No. 21. I think it is a perfect summation of symphonies 18-20 and, in the first movement, a harbinger of the aggressive symphonies 22, 23, 25 and 26. I wonder why Brian's style changed with No. 18.... There is a certain atmosphere in symphonies 6-17, which never returns.


I'd group the symphonies as follows, by the way: 1-5, 6-7, 8-17, 18-21, 21-26, 27-32.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 19, 2012, 05:04:08 PM
I'm going to have to print that post out! I AM still listening to those cd-r's. For Brian's worst symphonies,No's 13 & 14,sound pretty interesting to me! No 14 has a wonderful mysterious sounding opening & is,literally, packed with more incident than most symphonies put together. As usual,I find myself particularly drawn to the quieter passages,which remind me of that description of Brian's music as an 'unknown hinterland'. Well,I can't remember the exact quote. I think it might have been on the back of the Lyrita Lp,which I haven't seen for years (I downloaded the cd). I was also reminded of you'r suggestion that Brian's symphonies had more in common with Tolkein than those of Bax ( a comparison made in the Chandos booklet accompanying the Thomson set). Not that any of these symphonies have evoked images of Orc's or Balrog's,but sometimes they do evoke mental images of imaginary or even alien landscapes. Cyril Scott's Fourth does that,too,incidentally. I keep thinking of some strange,alien landscape when I listen to it! Maybe a distant planet,or a fictional one,like Perelandra (CS Lewis). Not that I am exactly into his books! (The only one of Scott's works that really grabs me,incidentally!)
  Of course,I shouldn't perhaps be thinking of things like this. These symphonies are 'abstract' works,they are not pictorial or descriptive,like those of Bantock,and I doubt that Brian was thinking about seascapes or landscapes in the way that Bax was. But,listening to the kind of fantastical aural landscapes that Brian evokes does have this effect,particularly late at night!

My accidental,blind & rather embarassing,considering some of my past observations,listen to the Naxos 15 has been particularly enlightening........even,revealing! :o ;D

 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 19, 2012, 05:26:53 PM
I could now be in a small minority of 'Brianites' who rate Symphonies 13 & 14 as two of my favourites! :o ;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 19, 2012, 06:38:16 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 19, 2012, 05:04:08 PM
... I was also reminded of you'r suggestion that Brian's symphonies had more in common with Tolkein than those of Bax ( a comparison made in the Chandos booklet accompanying the Thomson set). Not that any of these symphonies have evoked images of Orc's or Balrog's,but sometimes they do evoke mental images of imaginary or even alien landscapes. ...




Whenever I listen to Brian's music and hear these passages I think of WW1 battles and battlefields.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 19, 2012, 06:46:58 PM
Interesting thought about the grouping of the symphonies. My thoughts

1-5 agreed
6-7 agreed, except that they aren't very like each other and they're only a group because they fall between two other groups,

Then I'd say

8-12
13-21 (the Middle Period symphonies, except I'll have to listen to 17 and 18 again to see if I can see what you mean by the idea of break between those up to 17 and after 18). 21 seems to me to sum up these symphonies, then
22-24, a trilogy as Malcom Mac suggests
25-29 (MM's Classical phase)
30-32 The Late Symphonies
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 19, 2012, 07:02:55 PM
An interesting trio of responses. Too late to analyse now. May mull over in between periods of sleep! Or even during?!!! :o ::)
The louder passages certainly evoke battle. Nothing wrong with pictorial responses. It helps the mind forge the links between some of Brian's more elliptical passages. Especially,if you're a non musician,like me!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 20, 2012, 02:40:41 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 19, 2012, 07:02:55 PM
An interesting trio of responses. Too late to analyse now. May mull over in between periods of sleep! Or even during?!!! :o ::)
The louder passages certainly evoke battle. Nothing wrong with pictorial responses. It helps the mind forge the links between some of Brian's more elliptical passages. Especially,if you're a non musician,like me!
Music is written for non musicians, in the main, to listen to and enjoy. If you have to be a musician to like what you hear then the music is either failing to reach out or it's so intellectually (hate that word!) high brow that it's probably not worth the effort for the majority of people. For all Brian's faults at least his work is tonal, no nonsense and reaches out. This doesn't necessarily mean that it's either good or enjoyable and we all have our views on this but at least there aren't any pretentions. He was a very ordinary (in the best sense of the word) bloke. His music sort of reflects this. Don't bemoan being a non musician. This is an envious position to be in. You probably don't listen to every detail of execution with a jaundiced critical ear and the clumsiness of HBs writing maybe doesn't annoy you as it does to so many. Just use your ears and ignore the bull****. You don't need to be an author to enjoy War and Peace. So there.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 20, 2012, 03:37:40 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 19, 2012, 03:25:29 PM
I have all my Brian on my hard drive. Today I made a playlist with everything Brian wrote between symphonies No. 6 and 32, including concerti, overtures and opera fragments, and just listened to all the openings. Those of symphonies 8, 10, 18, 22 and 27 struck me the most. And a work I now rated more highly was No. 21. I think it is a perfect summation of symphonies 18-20 and, in the first movement, a harbinger of the aggressive symphonies 22, 23, 25 and 26. I wonder why Brian's style changed with No. 18.... There is a certain atmosphere in symphonies 6-17, which never returns.


I'd group the symphonies as follows, by the way: 1-5, 6-7, 8-17, 18-21, 21-26, 27-32.
Never really cared much for 21 until I spent time doing the refurbishment of the LP some weeks ago. I'd not heard it for the best part of 20 years. All of a sudden I started to like it. The slow movement is glorious, very much in the same vein as the Reverie from the English Suite No.5 and the 3rd movement is mercurial and captivating. Am I right in saying that it was last played at Loughborough in 1972? Shameful really.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 20, 2012, 03:51:23 AM
No. 21 has never been performed since, you're right. But with so many to choose from... The slow movement certainly has similarities with Reverie, though it is more symphonic in the way it develops its material. Reverie is more ruminative and lyrical. As I wrote to you in an email, your friend plays the violin solo in that slow movement remarkably, hauntingly well. Brian is always at his most moving and revealing in those solos. Symphony No. 20 is also very striking in that respect - the loneliness hits you. The very end of the Tenth (with the solo violin almost like a child in the night) always reminds me of the close of Ravel's 'L'Enfant et les Sortilèges', not musically, but in what it expresses - a soothing presence returns.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 20, 2012, 04:35:47 AM
You are right Johan, in 21 the ideas are more developed. I think the fiddle solos in 10 (Robert Heard) and Reverie (Graham Pyatt) are both very nicely done and really hit the mark. One critic actually accused the orchestra of employing an adult to play Reverie on the LP. Cheeky so and so. Aren't talented teenagers annoying? Thank goodness I was bog standard!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 20, 2012, 04:43:54 AM
You must have been a very decent rank and file player, otherwise you'd never have been accepted into the LSSO in the first place.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 20, 2012, 04:51:08 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 20, 2012, 04:43:54 AM
You must have been a very decent rank and file player, otherwise you'd never have been accepted into the LSSO in the first place.
I was compared to Heifetz in one of my dreams. At one particular violin lesson my teacher, Lambert Wilson - a wonderful Scots chap who played for the RSNO before moving south and taking up a teaching post in Leicestershire in 1962 - listened to me hack my way through a violin sonata, paused for a moment and then told me I played it with all the passion of a piece of wet Haddock. Best review I ever got :D In this era of dumbing down I bet a modern day teacher would proclaim my playing as being soulful and magnificent.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 20, 2012, 05:01:42 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on Today at 13:51:08 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg612503#msg612503)
In this era of dumbing down I bet a modern day teacher would proclaim my playing as being soulful and magnificent.



Janine Jansen's brother John.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on March 20, 2012, 05:21:29 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 20, 2012, 04:51:08 AM
I was compared to Heifetz in one of my dreams.

And to Heifetz's disadvantage . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 20, 2012, 05:26:42 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 20, 2012, 05:21:29 AM
And to Heifetz's disadvantage . . . .
Yep. Jascha was a shocker wasn't he.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn 2 on March 20, 2012, 12:12:16 PM
I have had to re-register as Cilgwn 2 as I have been locked out after attempting to update my email. Unfortunately,the forum demands a password & if you can't log in you are not able to contact the administrator! This after a thousand odd posts here as Veteran member Cilgwyn! Could the moderator (or admin) please contact me,preferably though the messaging facility here,or & the email I gave when re-registering as cilgwyn 2? Thanks! :(

Other than that,I would love to post something else about Havergal Brian here! :)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: bhodges on March 20, 2012, 12:35:08 PM
Hi cilgwyn 2, please check your messages! (And sorry you've had problems logging in...have no idea what the cause may be, but I have let Rob know.)

OK, please continue about Brian...  :D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn 2 on March 20, 2012, 12:55:33 PM
Thank you,I think will,as soon as I have recovered! :-[ ;D

I have now notched up either 1421 posts or two?!!! :( Apart from this mishap :-X :o which could only happen to me,I have been listening to my latest cd-r compilation of Brian's late symphonies. And I will return to that when I'm feeling less embarassed! :-[
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 20, 2012, 12:57:43 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn 2 on Today at 21:12:16 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg612689#msg612689)
I have had to re-register as Cilgwn 2 as I have been locked out after attempting to update my email. Unfortunately,the forum demands a password & if you can't log in you are not able to contact the administrator! This after a thousand odd posts here as Veteran member Cilgwyn! Could the moderator (or admin) please contact me,preferably though the messaging facility here,or & the email I gave when re-registering as cilgwyn 2? Thanks! :(

Other than that,I would love to post something else about Havergal Brian here! :)



Poor you...  :( But a second cilgwyn is always welcome.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn 2 on March 20, 2012, 01:08:33 PM
Very embarassing! John may have a point about 'joined up writing'! :( It all seems to have happened after I attempted to log back in here after installing Opera. I attempted to log in,but of course I had to put the password in,which,at some point or other I must have copied down wrongly. I then logged in,successfully. Unfortunately,I decided to change my email & things basically spiralled horribly out of control from there! :(

One things for sure,the Pentagon's safe from people like me!! ;D

This is my third post,now! :( :)

I got a very nice welcome back from the 'mod',though! :)

Thank you,Johan. I thought I was never going to see this thread,or board,ever again! :(


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 20, 2012, 01:36:09 PM
Oh well, you're back safe and sound (more or less)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn 2 on March 20, 2012, 01:44:41 PM
HopefullY :o And that's my Mondrian.back!
And,I've notched up 1,424 posts,just in case any newbie's thinks I really AM a newbie! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn 2 on March 20, 2012, 02:30:11 PM
Being less self indulgent & going back to HB. These cds of Brian's late symphonies are proving very addictive. I made up a new cd of 13-15 & one of 17-19. After all these years I have finally 'cracked' these symphonies,if that's possible? ::) I honestly think I find these even more enjoyable & absorbing than some of the earlier symphonies. The only drawback.Once they 'click' with you.it's hard to switch them off. Not that I want,of course! ;D And yes,there does seem to be some kind of change or difference after No 17! But I need to listen allot more before I can divide them into groups.
  The great marvel of these symphonies is how much incident Brian packs into them. It will take a while to 'map them out' in my head.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 20, 2012, 03:00:31 PM
My groupings are based more on feeling than analysis. I have listened to all the symphonies dozens and dozens of times for the past 25 to 30 years. Malcolm MacDonald's writings on Brian are very persuasive and his way of looking at the symphonies has had an enormous influence on everyone who takes Brian seriously, including me. Still, I am finally reaching the point where I can think and feel for myself and draw my own conclusions.
That's why I see symphonies 6 and 7 as both an epilogue to the pre-war symphonies (and perhaps works stylistically related to the giant cantata Prometheus Unbound, which Brian worked on between 1937 and 1944) and the prologue to the 'new' Brian of Symphony No. 8. To these ears the symphonies are continuous between nos. 8 and 17 and there is no gap between 12 and 13. Symphonies 8 and 16 stand as the greatest achievements of this series.
Coming to Symphony No. 18 you can hear at once that Brian has made a new start, and the harder and cooler aspects of Symphony No. 16 are developed even further, coupled with a new sense of symphonic motion (which MM calls 'classical'). And after many one-movement symphonies, or symphonies in attaca movements (9, 11, 15), we now get genuine three-movement symphonies and in No. 21 even a four-movement symphony. That's why I regard 18-21 as constituting a group. MM wants to place 21 outside Brian's symphonic development, I don't. The first movement anticipates the opening of No. 22, which drops the slow introduction and throws the listener in media res. MM calls 22-24 a trilogy - yes, they share melodic material, but the aggressive style remains in force in symphonies 25 and 26, too. Only in No. 27 do you get another new beginning, I think. So 21-26 is a group.
And 27-31 is a final group in which Brian uses every form - one movement, two movements, three movements, four movements, a late summing-up of what he is capable of symphonically.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn 2 on March 20, 2012, 04:21:36 PM
Very interesting,Johan. I'm going to have to print that one out. First of all,because there's allot there & secondly,because trying to get back into the gmg board for ages (before re-registering) didn't do my head much good! :o :( That computer screen & my reading glasses were downstairs! :(
  I just downloaded the LSSO 10 & 21 from that US site. Everything appears okay,so far! ::) I was wondering what you think of the LSSO recording of No 22? I don't have that symphony,at all & I would like to make up another cd-r,soon,of Symphonies 20- 22,say? (I'll have to look at the timings again,first).

I'm still absorbing 17-19 at the moment,mind! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 20, 2012, 04:29:26 PM
Curt Timmons' refurbishment of the LSSO 22 is excellent, it really is a great improvement on the CBS recording, which sounded terrible. The performance as such is good. Myer Fredman's reading is just as good, but tops the LSSO in the dénouement (carried mainly by the strings) of the final thirteen bars.


One addition to my earlier post - the Concerto for Orchestra is very important. It feels like a successor to Symphony No. 20. I think its ending is better than the symphony's.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn 2 on March 20, 2012, 04:35:57 PM
Hm! I might make another cd-r & fit the Concerto in between 20 & 21. That could be interesting. But one of the symphonies first. This is where this technology really helps! I need to hear the LSSO 22,though!
  I gave the download of 10 & 21 a brief check out on Windows Media & it DOES sound good! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn 2 on March 20, 2012, 05:19:30 PM
I will want to listen to the download first,tomorrow (it's too late,now) just to make sure everythings okay! I must confess,I never had the CBS Lp,but I did have the performance on cassette,once. I also,remember seeing it in the library,when our libraries still had stuff like that! :(

No's 13-15 had been on repeat for hours on end. Now it's 17-19,of course. They are very addictive aren't they,once you crack into that,misleadingly,craggy exterior. What's inside is often very beautiful & suprisingly lyrical. I fact once you DO crack into them,the only suprise is that they appeared forbidding,at all! But Brian's compositional thought processes are very elliptical & often move incredibly quickly. They just don't evolve like any other symphonies I've ever heard! (Hearing them in sequence has been a great help)

Anyway,it's too late to pursue this now,unfortunately! :( :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 20, 2012, 05:26:07 PM
It is late... I find symphonies 13 to 19 very approachable and colourful. Of the even later symphonies I don't like 23 and 26 very much (though they don't get very good performances). But you'll be hearing those one of these days, too...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 20, 2012, 11:53:03 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn 2 on March 20, 2012, 04:35:57 PM
Hm! I might make another cd-r & fit the Concerto in between 20 & 21. That could be interesting. But one of the symphonies first. This is where this technology really helps! I need to hear the LSSO 22,though!
  I gave the download of 10 & 21 a brief check out on Windows Media & it DOES sound good! :)
Just when I thought it was safe to come on here there are now two Cilgwyns doing all manner of stuff - downloads, logging on and off, joined up writing - the works. The CBS 22 is good despite the flute blowing sharp. The actual shape and drive of the piece is fine and as Johan said earlier the CBS horror has been replaced by a much more user friendly sound - less toppy and a resonant bottom end that was never on the LP. It's now a bit more like the Unicorn 10/21 but with a closer soundstage. Give it a try. Cheap as chips and worth getting for the Reverie from the Suite No.5 alone. Very attractive stuff.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 21, 2012, 08:28:50 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn 2 on March 20, 2012, 04:35:57 PM
Hm! I might make another cd-r & fit the Concerto in between 20 & 21. That could be interesting. But one of the symphonies first. This is where this technology really helps! I need to hear the LSSO 22,though!    I gave the download of 10 & 21 a brief check out on Windows Media & it DOES sound good! :)
I hear from a reliable source that you've now got it. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn 2 on March 21, 2012, 09:54:28 AM
Apologies for not coming back to you sooner,John! I only had a cassette copy,of course,which someone posted me,so I don't know what the original Lp was like,except from the descriptions here & on the download site (Rave reviews from you & Johan!)
It sounds good to me! :) :) :) I haven't heard the other items on the cd,yet,though.
10 & 21 sound amazingly good. It was like being back home,all those years ago, with my mum & dad,with the record player in the sitting room,annoying everybody with Havergal Brian's greatest hits! But without those clicks & pops! ;D

Nice to be back! I finally managed to break back in! :( ;D Just to make it even more embarassing,I had to post my predicament here for everyone to see what had happened (after my SOS had been moderated! ;D)
What next,joined up writing? Oh yeah,I've done that! :( And I was making jokes about that crack! :(

Thanks for the opportunity to hear these performances in such great restored sound. And Klassic Haus,of course!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on March 21, 2012, 10:00:15 AM
Welcome to newbie cilgwyn.

I hope you like Mahler.

I have a hammer.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cilgwyn, I am , of course, joking.

I hope you  take it in good part.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 21, 2012, 10:13:36 AM
You leave my brother alone! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on March 21, 2012, 10:44:18 AM
That's the best answer ever :D ;D ;D

Top man.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 21, 2012, 10:46:52 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on Today at 19:13:36 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg612990#msg612990)
You leave my brother alone! ;D



>
Quote from: Hattoff on March 21, 2012, 10:44:18 AM
That's the best answer ever :D ;D ;D

Top man.


That's hwyl for you.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 21, 2012, 10:53:58 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn 2 on March 21, 2012, 09:54:28 AM
Apologies for not coming back to you sooner,John! I only had a cassette copy,of course,which someone posted me,so I don't know what the original Lp was like,except from the descriptions here & on the download site (Rave reviews from you & Johan!)
It sounds good to me! :) :) :) I haven't heard the other items on the cd,yet,though.
10 & 21 sound amazingly good. It was like being back home,all those years ago, with my mum & dad,with the record player in the sitting room,annoying everybody with Havergal Brian's greatest hits! But without those clicks & pops! ;D

Nice to be back! I finally managed to break back in! :( ;D Just to make it even more embarassing,I had to post my predicament here for everyone to see what had happened (after my SOS had been moderated! ;D)
What next,joined up writing? Oh yeah,I've done that! :( And I was making jokes about that crack! :(

Thanks for the opportunity to hear these performances in such great restored sound. And Klassic Haus,of course!
Glad you like 'em and a very warm welcome to you. It's good to meet new people on here. I hope we've heard the last of your brother, though. He was a total waste of space. By the way the same download site has a rather good Mathias Sinfonietta. He was a Welsh composer. Have you heard of him? He's very similar to J S Bach. A sort of Dai Bach. Boom boom. I'll get my coat........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn 2 on March 21, 2012, 11:13:04 AM
I don't like him either! >:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 21, 2012, 11:13:52 AM
Would you like to come outside & say that? >:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 21, 2012, 11:16:13 AM
This thread is getting surreal (if it wasn't that already)...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: bhodges on March 21, 2012, 11:22:19 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 21, 2012, 11:16:13 AM
This thread is getting surreal (if it wasn't that already)...

;D

I think it's high time that everyone on GMG had a doppelgänger.

--Bruce
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 21, 2012, 11:25:43 AM
Quote from: Brewski on Today at 20:22:19 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg613013#msg613013)
;D

I think it's high time that everyone on GMG had a
doppelgänger.

--Bruce



Know what you wish for - judging by the acrimonious cilgwyn twins, you'd have to moderate 24/7.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 21, 2012, 03:31:11 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 19, 2012, 03:25:29 PM
I have all my Brian on my hard drive. Today I made a playlist with everything Brian wrote between symphonies No. 6 and 32, including concerti, overtures and opera fragments, and just listened to all the openings. Those of symphonies 8, 10, 18, 22 and 27 struck me the most. And a work I now rated more highly was No. 21. I think it is a perfect summation of symphonies 18-20 and, in the first movement, a harbinger of the aggressive symphonies 22, 23, 25 and 26. I wonder why Brian's style changed with No. 18.... There is a certain atmosphere in symphonies 6-17, which never returns.


I'd group the symphonies as follows, by the way: 1-5, 6-7, 8-17, 18-21, 21-26, 27-32.
I've printed out this post & another one,as I think they will help. There definately IS a change after No 17. So far,I prefer the earlier ones,these are more combative,or aggressive as you say. A more strenuous listen. But obviously,I need to listen allot more!
  I don't have symphonies 23-25,unfortunately! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 21, 2012, 03:37:40 PM
YHM (You Have Mail)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 21, 2012, 03:40:30 PM
I'm back listening to Brian after listening to other things. Even though what I was listening to in the interim wasn't poor music, Mozart, Pavel Haas (murdered by the Nazis, 3 string quartets &c wonderful stuff), C17 consort music &c &c, coming back to Brian was like a walking into a magical place again. I was listening to the Symphony 21, and the first 'change of gear' of the kind that Hugh Ottaway complained about made me smile and second made me laugh. This is such living music, you can't just sit back and let it wash over you, you have to be in it, listening and thinking. And the biggest joke is that #21 is his most "conventional" symphony.

Next on the list, listening to 17 and 18, and trying to see about the change between them. (I realised when I wrote my list earlier that my "Middle Period" of symphonies from 13 to 21 was too long and needed to be divided).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 21, 2012, 03:47:31 PM
I have been listening to Brian a lot, too. And yes - his music has incredible vitality. MM wrote somewhere, a long time ago, that Brian had discovered a knack of making the subconscious work for him... What makes his music so exciting is the way Brian gives free rein to his imagination AND is intellectually in control. His music is happening here and now, it's dangerous and unpredictable. That's why it sounds fresh and alive.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 21, 2012, 04:11:39 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 21, 2012, 03:40:30 PM
I'm back listening to Brian after listening to other things. Even though what I was listening to in the interim wasn't poor music, Mozart, Pavel Haas (murdered by the Nazis, 3 string quartets &c wonderful stuff), C17 consort music &c &c, coming back to Brian was like a walking into a magical place again. I was listening to the Symphony 21, and the first 'change of gear' of the kind that Hugh Ottaway complained about made me smile and second made me laugh. This is such living music, you can't just sit back and let it wash over you, you have to be in it, listening and thinking. And the biggest joke is that #21 is his most "conventional" symphony.

Next on the list, listening to 17 and 18, and trying to see about the change between them. (I realised when I wrote my list earlier that my "Middle Period" of symphonies from 13 to 21 was too long and needed to be divided).
Sorry Calyptorhyncus,I'm going to print you're earlier post as well. The more viewpoints the better! :) But not every post here,obviously,otherwise I'll need allot of ink & paper! ;D

I also note,Johan,you're favourite symphonies are: 1,3,5,6,8,10,12,13,14,16,17,18,19,22,24,27,28,30 & 31.

Of course,only 10-31 are relevant here,but I do have a hankering for No 7;and 11,now,after my cd-r reappraisal of the Newstone. And No 9 has moved back up a notch after hearing the Del Mar! :)
  Glad to see you like 13 & 14. These are now firmly added to my list of favourites!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 21, 2012, 04:16:25 PM
When I see that list with my favourites I suddenly realise I love so many things about the symphonies I omit... Don't take it too seriously - the ending of No. 9 is uplifting, the opening movement of No. 11 is great, the spaciousness of No. 20 is wonderful... In the final analysis I love them all, even Nos 23 and 26 (parts of them).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 21, 2012, 04:23:45 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 21, 2012, 04:16:25 PM
When I see that list with my favourites I suddenly realise I love so many things about the symphonies I omit... Don't take it too seriously - the ending of No. 9 is uplifting, the opening movement of No. 11 is great, the spaciousness of No. 20 is wonderful... In the final analysis I love them all, even Nos 23 and 26 (parts of them).
The ending of No 9 is marvellous (best Brian endings?!!!). When I was a youngster listening to the old Groves Lp on my record player I used to imagine hearing it at a concert,perhaps a Prom. It's the sort of ending that gets you on you're feet,even if it's only metaphorically (in you're mind). It can certainly make you're heart race!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 21, 2012, 04:33:33 PM
A few of my favourite Brian endings - 5, 9, 10, Elegy, 16, 17, Concerto for Orchestra, 22, 24, 29, 30...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on March 21, 2012, 05:06:41 PM
Number Five.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 21, 2012, 05:23:14 PM
And,No 1,I suppose. It has to be one of the best endings ever!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 21, 2012, 05:23:43 PM
And,let's hit that sack! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 22, 2012, 02:21:42 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 21, 2012, 04:33:33 PM
A few of my favourite Brian endings - 5, 9, 10, Elegy, 16, 17, Concerto for Orchestra, 22, 24, 29, 30...
I love the endiing of No.4 because it means the thing is about to come to an end.... ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on March 22, 2012, 02:31:42 AM
The ending to No 3, it's straight out of a James Bond movie/film.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 22, 2012, 02:39:12 AM
I know what you mean - that final cadence, that penultimate chord: pure John Barry (e.g. Goldfinger).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on March 22, 2012, 02:40:54 AM
Yup, that's the one. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 22, 2012, 04:16:20 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 22, 2012, 02:21:42 AM
I love the ending of No.4 because it means the thing is about to come to an end.... ;D
;D Actually,I always think that's the best bit & not JUST because it's over! I remember on my old D90 cassette (which I still have) the side turn was,annoyingly, just BEFORE that bit. At any rate,I think if I had to pick Brians worst symphony,No 4 would be it! It's too loud & unsubtle. Brian could do allot better!
  Felicity Palmer deserved a medal for her singing! (I think she got something later,but not,specifically, for that)

Incidentally,the HBS website lists a 1967 bbc broadcast with Honor Sheppard, conducted by Maurice Handford!

Perhaps,I should have said weakest! ;D But Brian's Second certainly comes in as another contender. I used to play it allot when I was young. I do quite like some of it & the bleak, sombre atmosphere of the piece IS rather impressive." Man in his cosmic loneliness!" If only Brian could have pulled it together. I wonder why it is such a disappointment after No 1?
No 3 is a definate improvement (a personal favourite),then No 4! :( After that,it gets ALLOT better! :)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on March 22, 2012, 05:14:36 AM
Amazing. The Brian Thread is unassailable??? sigh ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 22, 2012, 05:19:15 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on Today at 14:14:36 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg613296#msg613296)
Amazing. The Brian Thread is unassailable??? sigh ::)



You just added to it...  ;D


(History is driven by motivated minorities.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 22, 2012, 05:48:09 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 22, 2012, 04:16:20 AM
;D Actually,I always think that's the best bit & not JUST because it's over! I remember on my old D90 cassette (which I still have) the side turn was,annoyingly, just BEFORE that bit. At any rate,I think if I had to pick Brians worst symphony,No 4 would be it! It's too loud & unsubtle. Brian could do allot better!
  Felicity Palmer deserved a medal for her singing! (I think she got something later,but not,specifically, for that)

Incidentally,the HBS website lists a 1967 bbc broadcast with Honor Sheppard, conducted by Maurice Handford!

Perhaps,I should have said weakest! ;D But Brian's Second certainly comes in as another contender. I used to play it allot when I was young. I do quite like some of it & the bleak, sombre atmosphere of the piece IS rather impressive." Man in his cosmic loneliness!" If only Brian could have pulled it together. I wonder why it is such a disappointment after No 1?
No 3 is a definate improvement (a personal favourite),then No 4! :( After that,it gets ALLOT better! :)
Actually,I was just thinking. What do I know?! Das Siegeslied & the Second Symphony could be shattering masterpieces,for all I know!
  I mean.let's face it,I couldn't even log into my own GMG account yesterday! :(

Man in his cosmic loneliness,eh?! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 22, 2012, 05:52:23 AM
And now I hear that Cilgwyn 2 could be going on an extended vacation!!! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2012, 06:04:08 AM
An allusion to Robt Sheckley, "The Robot Who Looked Like Me"?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 22, 2012, 06:54:41 AM
(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/9396/f6ad53a09da045a20bab511.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2012-03-22
Just when you needed a shave?! :o :(

Actually,I hadn't heard of it,but you reminded me that one of my favourite books as a teenager was Robert Sheckley's 'Immortality Inc'.
Now only available in sad looking, tattered s/h copies. It was made into a terrible film with Mick Jagger.
Edmund Cooper's 'The Overman Culture' was another one;back in the days when Sax Rohmer's Fu Manchu books & Rider Haggard gleamed on the shelves of public libraries in nice,big,hardback editions!

They even had Havergal Brian! :o ;D

The Marx brothers could have been Robert Sheckley?!!! :o
All three (four?) of them?!!! :o :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 22, 2012, 08:28:41 AM
And now a post about Havergal Brian! ;D
The cd-r of 17-19. Now they are really starting to 'click' with me. An untechnical term,I know,but that's the moment when I have  difficulty taking them off! Seventeen has allot in common with it's predecessor. It shares a very similar sound world. It could almost be an off shoot. Anyway,now I'm beginning to get to grips with this one the stylistic change/s that occurs with No18 should become clearer.
  Actually,I think I prefer this one to No 16,marginally. Not quite sure yet,as my download of No 16 failed & I can't go back and listen to it. It ends after appproximately 10 minutes! :(

Some of these off air performances seem so good I wonder how much they could actually be improved upon by any new recordings,except in terms of sound quality,of course? Not that I don't want to hear them in state of the art sound,of course! ;D

Thirteen & fourteen please,Dutton?!!! :)




 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 22, 2012, 11:31:04 AM
Back on the cd-r of 10-12,now! :)
Very addictive!

Nice to hear the twelfth in the Newstone,performance;although,I'm pretty sure I must have had this on cassette,once (I had them all!). This performance has more atmosphere than the Marco polo. It is also,thankfully,free from that wierd,boxy sounding,Marco Polo acoustic.
  The Eleventh is far preferable to the Naxos. It's just more lively and has more atmosphere. I'm afraid I can't really put it much more technically than that! At least,not so soon after that sausage & bean hotpot! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 22, 2012, 11:45:28 AM
Re 17 - I play it far more often than 16. I like the freedom and colour of this work. 16 'looks' more metallic and grey...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 22, 2012, 12:14:47 PM
Yes,definatelyl! They have so many similarities,yet No 17 is more wide ranging. No 16 is less likable in some ways. More steely & remote. Not that I DON'T like No 16,of course;but I'm beginning to wonder whether Lyrita's famous Lp should have been 6 & 17,instead of,6 & 16?! ;D But then again,maybe two 6's on an Lp cover look better than one?
I always felt Lyrita's odd abstract style cover 'art' went particularly well with No 16. Of course,it's a landscape now! Brian's dazzling use of the orchestra made me think of think of kaleidoscopes & mosaics. Almost like an abstract painting itself,in sound!
Either way,it was better than some of those peculiar Bax sleeves (not the Tintagel one,however,I liked that! I used to prop it up! :))
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 22, 2012, 12:38:17 PM
I've just found a complete No 16 on my external drive & burned it to a cdr of Syms 16-18! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 22, 2012, 12:45:39 PM
Good for you!


Re 16 and 17 again: 16 is stringent, abstract and severe (yes, that original cover art captured that perfectly), 17 freer, warmer, though the final part is very wild despite its waltz-rhythm, a sort of Brianic La valse.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 22, 2012, 02:02:38 PM
Regarding 6 & 16 again. I have heard some people (not you) say that they liked the Sinfonia tragica,but weren't so keen on it's companion. As far as I can recall,even though I had more difficulties with the later symphonies, I played No 16 & enjoyed it every bit as much as No 16. At the time their sound world seemed to seemed to share some similarities despite the fact that they are chronologically 12 years apart & No 16 is of course in Brian's later more elliptical style. Also,of course they are both one movement symphonies. No 17 shares a similar soundworld & would have made a good companion,but it's in three movements,which might have clashed!
  I have now read on the HBS site,that the Sinfonia Tragica was only accepted into the symphonic canon,in 1967! So in 1966,the year of the Boult Gothic, it was still just an orchestral prelude?


 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 22, 2012, 02:11:37 PM
The Tragica just stood outside the canon as 'a concert work' (MM's word, just checked). As for it being a one-movement symphony, it's tripartite though continuous, just like No. 17. Even in No. 16, which is so seamless, you can find vestiges of a very compressed and telescoped four-movement symphony...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 22, 2012, 02:41:24 PM
Ooops! :o :-[ I got confused looking at the HBS site. It is also one of the penalties of listening with these cordless headphones. It sounds a poor excuse,I know :-[.but I'm not always in the vicinity of the cd player. I tend to be doing things while I'm listening,or in another room, & every now and again I check to see where I am! Eighteen's the next one with separate movements!
Seventeen wouldn't have clashed! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 22, 2012, 02:45:45 PM
So 6 & 17 are perhaps closer to one another,structurally,in some ways,than 6 & 16?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 22, 2012, 02:52:01 PM
Erm... no. No. 6 is very clear-cut, there are three clearly-marked spans. No. 17, come to think of it, has four inter-connected parts, and this _does_ connect it with its predecessor. Slow intro, allegro, curtailed slow movement, a rondo-like segment as a sort of scherzo and a finale with violent coda... (I should listen to it!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 22, 2012, 04:36:02 PM
If you two gentlemen could "drag yourselves away" ;D ;D from HB for a few seconds at least you will see that I have posted about the 60 complete catalogues I have now compiled and put up online for British Composers' Orchestral and Choral Music.

HB himself is NOT one of the first 60 :( This is NOT a reflection of either my valuation of Brian's music nor his current popular profile. I considered however that-for the time being at least-I should leave him out because the HB website is, of course, perfectly suited to those who needed the necessary information.

Brian will however feature in the second (much shorter ;D) series of British composers who will be added in a few weeks or so.

I felt that I owed you this explanation of what, otherwise, you might take as some sort of deliberate slight on the old boy :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 22, 2012, 05:07:52 PM
Don't worry, Colin. I did check a few of your catalogues the other day - thorough stuff, as was to be expected. And as you say, HB is well-served by the Society website. Having everything in one place (UC) is handy, though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 22, 2012, 05:12:04 PM
But I still think Brianites should hand Colin some form of punishment just for the sake of it. Let's say suspend him for ... uh... 6 hours, starting from his bedtime tonight!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 22, 2012, 05:42:39 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 22, 2012, 02:52:01 PM
Erm... no. No. 6 is very clear-cut, there are three clearly-marked spans. No. 17, come to think of it, has four inter-connected parts, and this _does_ connect it with its predecessor. Slow intro, allegro, curtailed slow movement, a rondo-like segment as a sort of scherzo and a finale with violent coda... (I should listen to it!)
I really Have got to read up about this,haven't I? AND sit by  the cd player! The way these symphonies inter connect is one of the things that is SO fascinating about them,though.
I've been listening to No 20,through to 22,for the last two or three hours. I know No 21 pretty well from the old LSSO LP,but No 20 is,imho,the toughnest nut to crack so far! And you describe some of the later ones as 'aggressive'! :o :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 22, 2012, 05:45:31 PM
And I wondered where Dundonnell had gone?
Thankfully,quite capable of logging in here,normally,like everyone else! :o :(
Okay,off to bed! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on March 22, 2012, 05:47:38 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 22, 2012, 02:02:38 PM
Regarding 6 & 16 again. I have heard some people (not you) say that they liked the Sinfonia tragica,but weren't so keen on it's companion. As far as I can recall,even though I had more difficulties with the later symphonies, I played No 16 & enjoyed it every bit as much as No 16.

In my case (as somebody who agrees with this mentioned sentiment), it's because of the rare extended lyrical central episode of No.6 which doesn't show up often in Brian's symphonies. It also has a conclusion atmospheric enough to be "relatable" when approaching the work from a Romantic angle, which is not the case for most of the rest of Brian's music which is largely self-referencing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 22, 2012, 06:47:57 PM
Just a query, I bought the refurbished LSSO HB 22 + English Suite 5 from http://klassichaus.us, but I understood people here to be saying that they had also done the S21 + S10 disk as well. Can't find this on the website.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 22, 2012, 11:43:20 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 22, 2012, 06:47:57 PM
Just a query, I bought the refurbished LSSO HB 22 + English Suite 5 from http://klassichaus.us, but I understood people here to be saying that they had also done the S21 + S10 disk as well. Can't find this on the website.
Here it is
http://www.klassichaus.us/Havergal-Brian.php
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 23, 2012, 01:00:06 AM
@Lethevich Correct. No. 6 has a very melodic profile, more so than any other Brian symphony I can think of. If he had written more of them, he could have been more popular, perhaps. Typically, Brian never repeats himself. No. 7 may share some of its traits, it is very different.

@Cilgwyn You'll find in time that No. 20 is a very accessible and appealing piece. Most of the gruffness is in the opening movement, but there, too, there are wonderful lyrical passages. The Concerto for Orchestra is very similar to No. 20. It, too, starts out very forbiddingly, but becomes very touching and joyful.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 23, 2012, 02:57:13 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 22, 2012, 11:43:20 PM
Here it is
http://www.klassichaus.us/Havergal-Brian.php

Thanks, how could I have missed that!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 24, 2012, 12:36:17 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 23, 2012, 02:57:13 PM
Thanks, how could I have missed that!
To be fair the site isn't as user friendly as it could be. I've sent a note to Curt to explain what's gone on. Enjoy the download.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 24, 2012, 06:24:20 AM
I reached my cdr of Symphonies 30-32,last night,and was pleased and more than a little impressed to realise that two of Brian's most imaginative & absorbing symphonies are 30-31. I have heard these before,on cd,but it is listening to them in sequence like this which has finally helped me to 'crack' the later one's,after all these years. I would certainly place these two amongst his most impressive,even,dare I say it (should I?!) awesome achievements.
  As to No 32,I need to listen a little more. It was getting late by the time I listened to that one;although,I know that it is No's 30 & 31 which are listed amongst Johan's favourites,not 32......but 'we'll see!'

Last edit,to add the missing 'i' to 'lttle'. I love that 'modify' button! ;D
.............is it there,now?!!! :o :(

I mean,let's face it;what kind of a society is it,if you leave out the 'i' in little?!!! >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 24, 2012, 06:41:05 AM
It's been very heartening to see you cracking the late-Brian code, cilgwyn! As for No. 32, there are some great things in it, but overall the work is rather bare compared to the very differentiated No. 30 and the wonderfully poised No. 31.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 24, 2012, 12:36:45 PM
A correspondent of Norman Lebrecht's has just reviewed the concert premiere of Brian's Symphony No. 27 in the US (and NL embedded my Gothic footage...)


http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2012/03/havergal-brian-has-a-us-premiere-who-knew.html (http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2012/03/havergal-brian-has-a-us-premiere-who-knew.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on March 24, 2012, 02:02:34 PM
Nice to see this review escape the main traps of Brian reviewing from general sources. It was well-written, well-observed, clearly presented and actually useful to any potentially interested reader. Even better, it doesn't intend any grand summation, judgement, or nervous attempt to deem it "interesting" rather than "great" music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 24, 2012, 02:18:17 PM
Yes, I like it, too. There are a few errors, but those I can live with, as the review as a whole is enthusiastic and open-minded.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 24, 2012, 03:16:26 PM
Been listening to the LSSO recording of the 10th. I can't comment at a detailed level, unlike the experts here who talk about individual passages and their interpretation, but I found I liked the LSSO recording better. It was more spacious (2 minutes longer), and seemed to make the 'journey' that the music represents more significant. Liked the sound better too, more open. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 24, 2012, 03:22:05 PM
The LSSO Tenth was the only performance we had for a very very long time. Now the Pope and Brabbins are available, and they both have their great qualities. But the LSSO is still the best, I agree.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 24, 2012, 04:51:21 PM
I like the Pope version allot,but the LSSO is the best version & the one I grew up with. The Brabbins has the best sound quality,obviously,and it's pretty good (I'm not going to complain! ;D) but it's not the version I'd choose to play. A pity really. I wish Brabbins could have another go at it. Mind you,having said that,I'm a little pleased really that the old LSSO version still beats the new one.....and it's nice for the original musicians,too!

They're still the best! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 25, 2012, 02:38:49 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 24, 2012, 04:51:21 PM
I like the Pope version allot,but the LSSO is the best version & the one I grew up with. The Brabbins has the best sound quality,obviously,and it's pretty good (I'm not going to complain! ;D) but it's not the version I'd choose to play. A pity really. I wish Brabbins could have another go at it. Mind you,having said that,I'm a little pleased really that the old LSSO version still beats the new one.....and it's nice for the original musicians,too!
They're still the best! :)
Most kind. I'll put a cheque in the post. Address please..........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2012, 08:17:30 AM
Alex Ross (of The Rest is Noise fame) writes about Simpson and a a bit about Brian:


http://www.therestisnoise.com/2012/03/simpson-in-america.html (http://www.therestisnoise.com/2012/03/simpson-in-america.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 25, 2012, 11:23:33 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 25, 2012, 02:38:49 AM
Most kind. I'll put a cheque in the post. Address please..........
No,it's okay....really,John! You're making me blush! :-[

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on March 25, 2012, 11:27:58 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2012, 08:17:30 AM
Alex Ross (of The Rest is Noise fame) writes about Simpson and a a bit about Brian:


That's more about the reviewer than the reviewee. But, again, aren't all reviews like that?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 25, 2012, 12:40:19 PM
Over the weekend I listened to Brian's Prelude to the Cenci. Didn't seem very tragic, almost jaunty in places. Has anyone here heard the performance of the opera and can comment?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 25, 2012, 01:22:20 PM
It IS strangely jaunty,but that's what I like about it. I find a slightly sinister quality to it. Maybe the odd jauntiness is another example of Brian's offbeat humour. I like to think so?
  At any rate,I notice (looking at the HBS website) there was a complete performance at the Queen Elizabeth Hall,sponsored by the HBS,and with what looks like a pretty decent cast! :o I wonder if Johan was there? I can't remember a broadcast?!!! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2012, 01:30:08 PM
Yes, I was there. 12 December 1997, if I remember correctly. In the morning there was a fire at a Heathrow terminal (T4?) and my flight seemed to be doomed (Brian jinx). Fortunately it went ahead, though a bit delayed. And The Cenci? I don't remember much, only the ending. It was a concert performance, so we had to use our imagination. I had read Shelley's play beforehand, so I knew what was happening. It is very difficult to judge any work by Brian on a first listen, so I can't give my verdict. As for the prelude - it is sinister, as cilgwyn says, and there certainly is sadness, too, I think.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 25, 2012, 03:53:50 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2012, 01:30:08 PM
Yes, I was there.

Me too. Odd to think we were both there (and I'm fairly sure other GMGers were present too)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2012, 03:57:41 PM
Quote from: Luke on Today at 00:53:50 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg614392#msg614392)
Me too. Odd to think we were both there (and I'm fairly sure other GMGers were present too)



Who knows whether I registered your presence subconsciously... Of GMGers HBSwebmaster was certainly there (Martyn Becker). More won't spring to mind...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 25, 2012, 04:03:16 PM
I was sitting fairly far back with my brother and a family friend. I remember the music was superb, and can recall the sensations it gave me, but not too much of the substance, beyond a few striking fate-laden march ideas.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 25, 2012, 04:06:51 PM
I had to listen to the Prelude now,on the Toccata cd. Some lovely orchestration here. I hope we're going to get more cds with playing & recording quality as good as this. Now I've 'cracked' the later symphonies (well not quite,perhaps! ;D) I think the time is ripe to give the music on this cd another listen.
  I must confess I have,up until recently, been a bit polite about some of the later symphonies,in my postings here. While I found them undeniably intriguing,I can't really say I enjoyed them. Now they've,unexpectedly,'opened up',I suddenly can't get enough of them. In fact,in some ways,I think Brian's later output is very possibly even more rewarding than his earlier music. I'm also,pretty sure now,that Brian's Symphonies 30 & 31 would make a fantastic prom.
  I just wonder what the London based 'critics' would make of them?  ::) :(

The cds got to the Turandot suite. Some lovely harps there! Must go downstairs & look at the cd tracking (I'm using the cordless headphones!)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2012, 04:09:01 PM
I was sitting somewhere in the middle. A week before the performance the (late, sadly) Secretary of the HBS, Alan Marshall, described the Icelandic soprano who sang Beatrice Cenci in a letter to me as 'drop-dead gorgeous' - the first time I ever read that phrase. I found her rather forbidding, to be honest...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 25, 2012, 04:23:08 PM
Her singing or her appearance,Joan?!!! :o

The music from Turandot on this cd is marvellous. It also makes suprisingly relaxing,late night (early morning :o) listening!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2012, 04:25:06 PM
Appearance, cilgwyn, appearance. Not much wrong with her singing.


Yes, those Turandot suites are excellent. I heard them live in 1995 in London, St James's Church, Piccadilly.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on March 25, 2012, 07:07:50 PM
No recording of the Cenci?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 25, 2012, 08:12:46 PM
Just been listening at lunchtime to the Symphony No.25 (Naxos) and just noticed two little details that are so Brian

1. In the first movement after a lull in the intensity and pace there's a sudden whipping-up of both, what with another composer would sound like a desperate gesture to get momentum back into the music, in Brian is both understandable and amusing, because the momentum was never lost, and yet the passage parodies such gestures in bad music.

2. At the end of the finale the music comes to rousing halt with chords on full orchestra, and then there's a little thump at the end as a few instruments (including a couple of oboes) seem to play their last notes late! Hilarious.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 26, 2012, 12:03:33 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 25, 2012, 04:23:08 PM
Her singing or her appearance,Joan?!!! :o

The music from Turandot on this cd is marvellous. It also makes suprisingly relaxing,late night (early morning :o) listening!
Is this Johan's sister or has he made a significant change in his life??
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2012, 12:30:59 AM
Quote from: Winky Willy on Today at 04:07:50 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg614456#msg614456)
No recording of the Cenci?



Yes, but only available (on loan) from The Havergal Brian Society. Martyn, the HBS Webmaster, said late last year that the Recordings Library would become available online in 2012. I wonder how far things have proceeded there...


>
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 26, 2012, 12:03:33 AM
Is this Johan's sister or has he made a significant change in his life??


No change since I last checked.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 26, 2012, 05:21:23 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 26, 2012, 12:03:33 AM
Is this Johan's sister or has he made a significant change in his life??
:o :o :o I just spotted that now! First I welcome you back as the 'pub landlord',now Joan! Sorry about that,Johan. It WAS late at night! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 26, 2012, 07:01:24 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 26, 2012, 05:21:23 AM
:o :o :o I just spotted that now! First I welcome you back as the 'pub landlord',now Joan! Sorry about that,Johan. It WAS late at night! ;D
Two pints of bitter and a couple of bags of pork scratchings please Joan. Have one yourself.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on March 26, 2012, 10:28:59 AM
Pork scratchings, the greatest culinary delight the English have given the world after steak & kidney pudding, you need good teeth, though. From my in depth studies of Havergal Brian I believe he lived on both throughout his life and they may, indeed, account for his longevity.

Sod calorie restriction.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 26, 2012, 12:07:12 PM
I must admit I've always been a cheese and onion crisp man,when I'm in a pub! Washed down with a pint! Particularly,the late lamented Golden Wonder & Smiths crisps! :()But Walkers are allright!As to steak & kidney pie! Yummy! But at my age a liitle fattening! :(

Back to Brian! :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 26, 2012, 12:33:26 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2012, 04:25:06 PM
Yes, those Turandot suites are excellent. I heard them live in 1995 in London, St James's Church, Piccadilly.

Me too.  ;) Saw the place again last Spring. I'm probably developing nostalgia.  ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2012, 12:45:51 PM
Quote from: Christo on Today at 21:33:26 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg614680#msg614680)
Me too.  ;) Saw the place again last Spring. I'm probably developing nostalgia.  ::)



Of course! That was the occasion where we met for the first time... For those who don't know - Christo (a Johan, too) was making a radio programme about Brian and The Gothic, that's why he was there at the AGM of the HBS and the concert that followed it in the evening.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 29, 2012, 10:55:31 AM
I received this email from a former member of a Leicestershire school choir now residing in Canada. Actually here's the complete trail:

Hi John,
On your LSSO website, the links to the video of the Havergal Brian documentary are sadly broken.  Any idea where this material can be found?  My wife and I actually performed on some of the recordings featured in the program, and at one point the camera even has a good shot of my wife!  I would love to find that again.
Richard Murison

Hi Richard,
I moved the video to another channel. Sorry about the broken links. Here's part 1 of 3. Once you find this you will find the others. By the way, I found a very talented man by the the name of Curt Timmons via the interent. Curt has restored the Havergal Brian LPs and 5 other LSSO records. The results, available on CD or as downloads, are sensationally good. I've included a link.

Fantastic, John.  Thank you so much.  My wife's maiden name was Kathryn Brook, and there is one brief close-up of her at 1:32 of Part 2 (she's the blond).  She and I were both in the choir (part of the Guthlaxton contingent), but the director wisely saw fit not to include a shot of my own ugly mug!  We're still together 40 years later, as are at least three other couples who were going out together when this film was shot.  That choir formed many unbreakable relationships.  I still exchange letters with my music teacher Dave Hart, but his cohort Stuart Nash has disappeared into the ether.
What was your relationship to the LSSO?

Hi Richard,
I played violin in the LSSO. I assume you were in the choir on the video - Psalm 23 - rather than in the orchestra? You will enjoy Curt's refurbishment of Psalm 23 even though it has the Brighton Festival Chorus rather than singers from Leicestershire. Happy days!

Hello again John,
I just went to the klassichaus web site.  I hoped that Curt had found a recording of the performance of Psalm 23 depicted on the YouTube clip.  Not to be.  I am well aware of this recording, and it holds some bitter memories for me.  Guthlaxton school choir was originally booked by the record company to perform on the recording.  I don't know how familiar you were with the Guthlaxton choir, but we were pretty much the pre-eminent choir in the country at that time.  Sadly, Laszlo Heltay connived to have his own Brighton choir substituted.  I can't tell you how furious and disgusted everybody was with the whole episode.  To this day I will never give the man the satisfaction of even listening to it.
Richard

Hi Richard,
Oh dear. I must admit that I haven't heard of the choir but one of my friends, Roger Harvey went to Guthlaxton. He now plays trombone with the BBCSO. I think it was down to CBS and Bob Simpson for the decision on the LP to be fair. They took Heltay on. I suppose they went for a pro outfit for the choral contribution and they are really excellent...... such is life. The footage of Psalm 23 on the video is clearly De Mont in 1972. Was there another audio recording of this in 1972 or 1974? I'm intrigued. If you think you were cheated, we were booked into the Last Night of the Proms in 1970 to do Shires Suite with Tippett conducting. Due to the restraints of backstage accomodation the BBCSO did it instead. Not room for 2 orchestras in the changing rooms. Now that WAS a sickener!!
John

Interesting how these things keep happening after all of these years.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 29, 2012, 06:37:04 PM
Having recently compiled a full Catalogue of HB's Orchestral and Choral Music and posted it elsewhere  ;D I am forcibly reminded just how fortunate HB has been compared to so many other eminently worthy British composers.  He really hasn't done at all badly in terms of cd recordings of his music :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on March 30, 2012, 12:24:16 AM
Hi Colin,

Nice job on the catalogue. Some input:

- The Preludio tragico from The Cenci is on the Toccata vol. 2 CD
- The Prologue in Heaven from Faust has five male soloists as well as orchestra; two tenors, a baritone and two basses, and hasn't been commercially recorded
- The violin concerto is 35'

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on March 30, 2012, 05:11:44 AM
Many Thanks for these corrections, Martyn :)  It is so helpful to get this kind of feedback. Compiling a catalogue involves so much juggling of data that one is bound to fall into error from time to time ;D

I shall amend the catalogue accordingly.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 30, 2012, 05:21:19 AM
Thanks, Colin, for your heroic exertions!


As for Brian being more lucky than some - yes, I think so, too. Perhaps his focus on orchestral music helps his profile. Having passionate advocates like Robert Simpson and Malcolm MacDonald didn't exactly hinder him either, of course...


(I have been extremely busy this week, just to explain my absence here. I was invited to Antwerp to participate in a literary event, which was a nice break!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on March 30, 2012, 10:02:49 PM
I can't quite put my finger on it (besides the obvious parallel of musical giganticism), but I was listening to Alessandro Striggio's Missa si Beato Giorno (which breaks to 60 vocal lines in the Agnus Dei!) today and it reminds me of the Te Deum of the Gothic in some indescribable way. It's a terrific work, anyhow, and I strongly recommend taking the time to listen to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyWgVk-lQy8
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2012, 08:03:11 AM
@WW I listened to it. It's much more mellifluous voice-setting than in Brian's Te Deum, but still - Brian's music does sometimes conjure up the spirit of this older music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on April 03, 2012, 12:59:54 PM
Just listened to the TOCCATA CD of Brian's music from the operas. Wonderful stuff! I thought he was just saying it, but his best music are actually in his operas! Wow!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2012, 01:28:37 PM
It's good, isn't it? Very colourful and varied.


HBS members got a nice email today - they could buy advance copies of a new Brian CD...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 03, 2012, 03:07:49 PM
Ooh, ooh

What's the new CD and when is it coming out. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on April 03, 2012, 04:01:01 PM
Yes, what is this cd?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2012, 04:20:19 PM
Let's say it's vocal and it will be out in May. I ordered it at once and hope to receive this Vol. 1 next week...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 04, 2012, 05:09:25 AM
OK...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 04, 2012, 08:14:35 AM
One to,definately, look forward too,even if it's not a more 'glamorous' orchestral cd! The old Lp (now on cd) of songs was,imho, one of the best Brian recording ventures ever! I would personally put it up there with the Lyrita,the LSSO 10 & 21 & Groves 8 & 9 & the Forlane recordings of music from 'The Tigers'. It was superb! I played it over & over again (I still have it somewhere). And this from someone who (my loss,I know) generally finds English song (with the possible exception of Britten) rather dull,to say the least!
To this day,I find it strange that such wonderful,hummable (nearly all of them!) songs are not in the popular repertory. In fact,the only reservation I have about them,is that they are so 'catchy' you may find yourself warbling 'The Defiled Sanctuary' in the bath! ;D or 'Piping down the Valleys wild' on the way back from the pub! :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 04, 2012, 11:29:01 AM
That pioneering recording of (a selection of) Brian's songs with Bryan Rayner Cook and Roger Vignoles is still available from Toccata Classics... As for this new one, John Grimshaw, the HBS Chairman, thought I'd "not be disappointed"....


Next week!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 04, 2012, 02:02:03 PM
Yes,it was marvellous to hear it on cd again. I was merely referring to the amount of time the original Lp spent on my record player (Allot!). One of the best Lps I ever bought. Wonderful!
If anyone here hasn't heard the Toccata,I would strongly recommend it! Regarding the new recording. All the reviews I have seen of cds from Stone records have been VERY enthusiastic indeed!!! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 04, 2012, 02:05:14 PM
Incidentally,there has been some interesting,even amusing,correspondence regarding the Hyperion Gothic,in IRR Magazine! Two more letters this month!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 04, 2012, 02:06:51 PM
A pity I can't read it... Could you summarise?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 04, 2012, 03:21:42 PM
I'll look forward to getting this one. The Toccata disk whetted my appetite for more HB songs.

Finzi is still my favourite English song writer, because he had such good taste in choosing lyrics (mainly by Hardy). Seems like HB had a similar knack for choosing lyrics.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 04, 2012, 03:33:06 PM
Well, apart from Shakespeare and his beloved Blake, Brian also set a few poems by his landlord, Christopher Masterman, one of which is 'The Soul of Steel'. Great song, but not great poetry. But that's perhaps for the best - then the music can 'lift' the words.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 04, 2012, 04:10:01 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 04, 2012, 02:06:51 PM
A pity I can't read it... Could you summarise?
Apologies,Johan. I,sort of,assumed you had! I will come back to you on this tommorrow. It's a bit late now!At least one of them was quite long!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 04, 2012, 04:19:18 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 04, 2012, 03:33:06 PM
Well, apart from Shakespeare and his beloved Blake, Brian also set a few poems by his landlord, Christopher Masterman, one of which is 'The Soul of Steel'. Great song, but not great poetry. But that's perhaps for the best - then the music can 'lift' the words.

Yes, the Masterman songs on the Toccata disk aren't the best. I should have said re Finzi "because he had such good taste in choosing lyrics (mainly by Hardy) AND matched them with masterful music"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 05, 2012, 03:11:35 AM
Fair play to Brian,though. He's not the only one! Elgar chose some pretty awful stuff to set;but it's what he did with it that matters. And then,of course,there's Brian's 'Wine of Summer'. I don't think many people would want to read that on it's own,at least not for fun! (Although,possibly because of the notoriety value of it's author?) But what a marvellous piece of music Brian makes out of it! It's so sad that Brian Rayner Cook was never able to make a commercial recording of it in his prime. Hopefully,Testament or some other record label will rectify this by issuing the BBC recording on cd one day for everyone to enjoy. Having said that,I am convinced that it will be issued,eventually,because of it's historic & artistic importance. When that happens it will be truly wonderful to hear it in digitally remastered sound quality. Oh,and when that 'great day' happens,can we have the Pope third & Holmes Violin Concerto too,please!!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 05, 2012, 03:20:10 AM
And then there are the great opera's with ludicrous story lines & classic movies derived from terrible,long forgotten novels. If you tried to make a list you would run out of paper!
Anyway,Masterman via Brian sounds pretty masterly to my ears! Although,the Blake songs were my favourites (if I HAD to choose at gunpoint!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 05, 2012, 03:23:10 AM
I wholly agree with your assessment of Brian's songs, cilgwyn. They all have their own unique character. The variety of moods and styles is terrific.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 05, 2012, 03:54:25 AM
One of my all time favourite opera's,incidentally,has to be Weber's 'Der Freischutz'. The plot is ridiculous,of course,but it's crammed to the brim with wonderful tunes,it's a masterpiece,and,quite frankly, magic bullets,a demon and a spooky Wolf Glen, are my idea of good,gothic,gruesome fun! All those opera houses that keep trying to make it more palatable to modern sensibilities really should lighten up,or perhaps I should say,spook up a bit! (Oh,and it's got a nice,happy ending too! :))
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 05, 2012, 04:32:24 AM
That Wolf's Glen scene is very scary music. Weber had great powers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 07, 2012, 03:55:51 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 04, 2012, 03:33:06 PM
Well, apart from Shakespeare and his beloved Blake, Brian also set a few poems by his landlord, Christopher Masterman, one of which is 'The Soul of Steel'. Great song, but not great poetry. But that's perhaps for the best - then the music can 'lift' the words.
I seem to remember that Brian's landlord let him live in his 'accomodation' rent free,(or gave him a rebate,or something?) because he liked his music so much. Presumably this was the same Masterman. If this was true,this would be quite an incentive to set his poetry to music,even if it was terrible! ;D
I may have got the story wrong,of course!
 
Looking at the Stone Records website,I must say,I DO like the archive photos, of the actual composers,on the covers. CW ORR even has an appreciative dog sitting on top of the piano,listening to him play. A bit like the ORR version of the famous HMV dog! 'Delius & his circle',HAS a photo of Delius & his circle (although I haven't been able to see the booklet). Too often,the soloist chooses to put himself on the cover,artfully posed & manicured. Of course, with the big labels,you probably don't have a choice. Put that cheesy smile & designer suit on (or whatever?) or get the sack?!!!

  If Alison Balsom gets her own label,maybe we'll be seeing allot less of her blonde good looks & some 'mug shot' engravings of Hummel! :o :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 07, 2012, 12:26:50 PM
Yes, I think you remembered correctly - Brian did do a Picasso with his landlord, i.e. pay the rent by creating pieces of art.


I checked out the, to me, unknown Alison Balsom. I think Hummel's legs were thinner.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 07, 2012, 01:22:27 PM
 ;D
If there was any justice in this world scores like the Gothic would pay a heck of allot of rent!!! (Although,that came a bit later,I think!)
One reason why so many composers resort to movie scores to keep the old wolf from the door! :(


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: thranx on April 08, 2012, 10:34:00 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 05, 2012, 03:54:25 AM
One of my all time favourite opera's,incidentally,has to be Weber's 'Der Freischutz'. The plot is ridiculous,of course,but it's crammed to the brim with wonderful tunes,it's a masterpiece,and,quite frankly, magic bullets,a demon and a spooky Wolf Glen, are my idea of good,gothic,gruesome fun! All those opera houses that keep trying to make it more palatable to modern sensibilities really should lighten up,or perhaps I should say,spook up a bit! (Oh,and it's got a nice,happy ending too! :))

As popular as YA fantasy is these days (Hunger Games, Potter, all the vampire and werewolf stuff), one would think that an opera along similar lines would be a natural.  Not necessarily a good thing, but a natural.
For that matter, I always wonder why no composer of note ever did a full-scale (as opposed to the Paul Ziemba attempt) grand opera based on Dracula.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on April 08, 2012, 10:47:40 AM
mmmmmmm...listening to the Tigers for the first time...too much going on at one time in the crowd scenes. It hurts my head.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 08, 2012, 10:52:32 AM
@Thranx: Wagner uses elements of fantasy. But horror is a genre that postdates the greatest opera composers, apart from the fact it didn't have any academic prestige. This situation has changed (think Lovecraft), but too late, I think, for opera.


@WW - do you have a libretto?


http://www.mediafire.com/view/?qguca0krifb0yib (http://www.mediafire.com/view/?qguca0krifb0yib)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on April 08, 2012, 12:04:06 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 08, 2012, 10:52:32 AM
@Thranx: Wagner uses elements of fantasy. But horror is a genre that postdates the greatest opera composers, apart from the fact it didn't have any academic prestige. This situation has changed (think Lovecraft), but too late, I think, for opera.




I've forgotten who wrote it, but someone in the 19th century wrote a vampire opera, based on an early 19th century novel titled The Vampyr.   

In fact, horror/Gothic was popular enough to be spoofed by Gilbert and Sullivan--remember John Wellington Wells, a dealer in potions and spells?  Sadly, that's the only line I actually remember.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 08, 2012, 12:06:55 PM
Marschner's Der Vampyr is not bad! The BBC even did an updated version in English,some years ago. Lord Ruthven,the vampire,is given some quite powerful arias & some of the music has a nice,darkly gothic atmosphere. Quite a good composer,if you like something off the beaten track. Like Lortzing,he deserves a bit more exposure than he gets. I'm suprised that emi didn't get around to a recording of Hans Heiling,his other supernatural opera. They did a few Lortzing recordings in the sixties with wonderful casts. Sadly,to this day,the only Marschner recordings available are live recordings,but,having said that,the opera d'oro releases are very good of their kind,in better than average sound (although the opening minutes of 'Der Vampyr' are a bit dodgy,thanks to a dozy engineer?!).
  Marschner did have some influence on Wagner & was,apparently,the most important German opera composer after Weber (until Wagner!).

  There is an opera by Gounod on the cpo label. I haven't heard it,but the plot is derived from gothic novel,'The Monk',which I remember reading,as a youngster,with great relish!!!

Oh,and there's Meyebeer's Robert le diable (hope I got that right!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on April 08, 2012, 12:07:28 PM
@JSmith  Ruddigore especially is entirely a spoof on that genre!

Johan, I have been following along in the vocal score! I am quite conflicted about the Tigers both as a drama (or even a story) and as a musical composition. I certainly am not with those who rank it near the Gothic!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 08, 2012, 12:12:06 PM
@Winky Willy I think The Tiger is a musical success, but dramatically flawed. I have no time now to say more. I say - keep listening and give your first verdict after you have taken in the whole of it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 08, 2012, 12:12:50 PM
I love it,myself! :)
The libretto is very eccentric though,to put it mildly! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on April 08, 2012, 12:13:11 PM
heheheh good advice!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on April 08, 2012, 12:25:26 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 08, 2012, 12:06:55 PM
Marschner's Der Vampyr is not bad! The BBC even did an updated version in English,some years ago. Lord Ruthven,the vampire,is given some quite powerful arias & some of the music has a nice,darkly gothic atmosphere. Quite a good composer,if you like something off the beaten track. Like Lortzing,he deserves a bit more exposure than he gets. I'm suprised that emi didn't get around to a recording of Hans Heiling,his other supernatural opera. They did a few Lortzing recordings in the sixties with wonderful casts. Sadly,to this day,the only Marschner recordings available are live recordings,but,having said that,the opera d'oro releases are very good of their kind,in better than average sound (although the opening minutes of 'Der Vampyr' are a bit dodgy,thanks to a dozy engineer?!).
  Marschner did have some influence on Wagner & was,apparently,the most important German opera composer after Weber (until Wagner!).

ETA: Found it on Wikipedia.  It was titled "The Bloody Nun" and based on an episode in The Monk not the main story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_nonne_sanglante
And Mirielle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mireille_(opera)
the EMI recording of which is available as part of their lastest budget opera line.

  There is an opera by Gounod on the cpo label. I haven't heard it,but the plot is derived from gothic novel,'The Monk',which I remember reading,as a youngster,with great relish!!!

Oh,and there's Meyebeer's Robert le diable (hope I got that right!)

I have a bad history with Opera d'oro.   I stopped buying them when I noticed how bad the sound seemed to be.  In Cavalleria rusticana, there seems to be a moment when something crashes into the orchestra pit or similar, and the other couple I've gotten (a Don Giovanni and a Boris Godunov I never listen to and ought to give away) don't have very good sound.  The only exception is their release of The Merry Widow, which turned out to be a re-issue (without dialogue) of the EMI studio recording with Schwarzkopf.

I know Gounod wrote a sort of Gothic opera--Mirielle--but didn't know he wrote one based on The Monk.  Given the similarities of the storylines,   I have to wonder if perhaps there's some version of Faust lurking on that CPO release and not the Matthew Lewis novel.  Did he actually write two operas based on the idea of people selling their souls to the Devil?

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 08, 2012, 12:28:33 PM
I first heard it in 1982. I had it on c90 cassettes,for years. I love the wackiness of the libretto. I see it as a kind of dream opera like Martinu's Julietta. There is no coherent plot line,in the conventional sense;it shifts about from one scene to another,a bit like Dads Army & the Goons meet Lewis Carroll. In one very wacky scene,which would look very strange on stage,the Colonel,asleep in bed has a sequence of wierd dreams,one of which involves him being addressed by a 'Red Indian' (Native American,these days!). I have often had a strange notion that the events of the opera are actually dreamt up by the Colonel,himself! Although,as far as I know,Brian never suggested this,himself!
Either way, a plot that involves marching cathedral gargoyles is obviously pretty off beat! I mean,we're not talking realism here,are we?!!! :o
 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 08, 2012, 12:31:12 PM
Yes, The Tigers is a very strange creation. It is as if Brian's subconscious wrote it. That's why it doesn't make realistic sense, whilst still being a compelling experience.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 08, 2012, 12:36:01 PM
I think the Marschner sets on Opera d' oro are probably better than average for them;but having said that Marschner definately deserves better. He's not Weber,but he's an important link between Weber & Wagner.

Yes,the opera by Gounod is 'La Nonne Sanglante' (The Bleeding Nun!!! :o). I first heard about this on a forum. I thought it was a joke. There is a quite substantial review & a nice photo of the cover on 'Musicweb'! Very tempting,actually;but I'm trying to save at the moment!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on April 08, 2012, 12:43:17 PM
I went to modify my reply but the edit disappeared instead of posting!  Maybe I hit the wrong button.

At any rate, while others were posting, I found the Gounod opera on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_nonne_sanglante
Base on an episode of The Monk, not the main story.

And Mireille, if you're curious, is available in EMI's budget reissue line.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mireille_(opera)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 08, 2012, 12:56:02 PM
Yes,it would be a pretty long opera if it took in the whole book! :o I haven't read the book for years,but I seem to remember that the main narrative was interrupted at one point by some character telling a story. At the end of the book,the lustful monk is carried off to Hell by a demon!

I quite like Gounod's Faust,but it's not exactly scary!!! Mireille,I keep meaning to get around to. It sounds like my cup of tea! ;D Some of those old emi sets were very well cast. I'll put that on my list! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 08, 2012, 01:05:17 PM
(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5426/51rftpyv3xlsl500aa300.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2012-04-08

I wonder if the opera itself,is as good as the cover photo?
Not sure if it's the nun that's doing the bleeding there? Unless Gounod meant,"Bleedin' Nun",as opposed to 'bleeding'! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 08, 2012, 01:07:42 PM
Blue Nun.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 08, 2012, 01:09:45 PM
Cpo certainly know how to sell an obscure opera!  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 08, 2012, 01:24:11 PM
(http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/1502/51r68adfv8lss400.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2012-04-08

Clearly beaten in the bosom department by RCA & the 'legendary' Anna Moffo. I had this as a teenager & remember my suprise & adolescent delight in finding out that the cover model WAS the singer! Moffo also featured on RCA's Hansel & Gretel as a disturbingly sexy sounding Hansel!! :o ;D
A shame she never quite realised her potential! (I mean,her voice!) :(

Back to Brian! ;D

Yes,there's (to my ears) a strange kind of 'dream logic' to Brian's libretto (for 'The Tigers). It has that way off jumping about like a dream. One minute you're in some room,then you're somewhere else,yet,strangely familiar.
It works for me,anyway! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 08, 2012, 02:50:26 PM
Anna Moffo should have sung Mrs Pamela Freebody. Though I fear she then would have precipitated cardiac arrest in Sir John Stout.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 08, 2012, 06:27:08 PM
 ;D In my wildest dreams,definately! And in the Colonels!!! Actually,listening to her later recordings,some of which I actually quite like,in a way,there is a sexy,matronly quality there which sort of goes with a name like Pamela Freebody!
Ahem! :o Of course,Moffo's,sadly, no longer with us;but one can dream! :)

By the way,I took advantage (!) of you're link & downloaded 'The Tigers' libretto. Hope you don't mind? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on April 08, 2012, 07:07:44 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 08, 2012, 12:06:55 PM
I'm suprised that emi didn't get around to a recording of Hans Heiling,his other supernatural opera. They did a few Lortzing recordings in the sixties with wonderful casts. Sadly,to this day,the only Marschner recordings available are live recordings,but,having said that,the opera d'oro releases are very good of their kind,in better than average sound (although the opening minutes of 'Der Vampyr' are a bit dodgy,thanks to a dozy engineer?!).

I can recommend the DVD of Hans Heiling on Dynamic - Markus Werba is a powerful lead.

Sorry for the umpteenth digression.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 09, 2012, 03:49:10 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 08, 2012, 12:25:26 PMIn Cavalleria rusticana, there seems to be a moment when something crashes into the orchestra pit or similar....

With live opera you sometimes get that kind of disaster. I once saw the Flying Dutchman at the National Theater in Mannheim. The appearance of the ghost ship was impressive: the whole huge edifice rising up from the bowels of the stage. At the end of the opera, when it came time for the ship to disappear, there was a mechanical glitch and the ship only collapsed half way. We then heard curses coming from under the stage and what sounded like someone wacking away at it with a hammer before it finally disappeared  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 09, 2012, 04:32:47 AM
Sounds hilarious,actually Seargent! But not so much fun on a cd recording,I suppose?! :) :( I remember being taken to a production of Rossini's 'La Cerentola' as a youngster. Part way through,one of the lead singers fainted & the audience watched in suprise as the fellow was dragged out under the curtain on his back,still unconscious. Up to till that moment,I was probably bored stiff!
I like Rossini,now!

Thanks for the dvd info 'Lethevich'. He's no Weber,but Marschner is a little underrated and the Lord Ruthven character in 'Der Vampyr' is rather imposing. Worse opera composers have been treated to starry studio recordings......and I'll think of one in a minute! ;D

I just popped on a Diamanda Galas cd 'The Sporting Life,with John Paul Jones. It was destined for the charity shop,but for once,the combination of her 'singing' (????) and John Paul Jones heavy drumming,sounds quite entertaining....even,groovy :( :o
Diamanda Galas as Mrs Pamela Freebody,though? Maybe not?!!! :o :o

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 09, 2012, 05:20:15 AM
Back to Brian....back to Brian!!!!! :o :o :o ;D

Just noticed,Brian Songs Vol 1,is now listed in the Wikipedia 'Stone Records' inventory! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 09, 2012, 04:44:38 PM
Don't want to derail the thread with opera disasters but has anyone heard this one?

At a performance of Lohengrinn, Lohengrinn got on his swan to depart and moved away, but the swan stuck. He got off and in perfect time to the phrase he was supposed to sing, sang instead (apologies for inaccurate German) 'Wann farht die nachste Schwanne ab?' ('When does the next swan leave?')

:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on April 09, 2012, 06:10:13 PM
That story I am pretty sure is about Leo Slezak!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 09, 2012, 10:12:19 PM
Quote from: Winky Willy on April 09, 2012, 06:10:13 PM
That story I am pretty sure is about Leo Slezak!

Yes, it was, I found it confirmed on Wikipedia, so it must be true.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 10, 2012, 03:52:20 PM
Just in case anyone doesn't know,'The Complete Havergal Brian Songbook Vol 1 cd,is now available to order on the Stone Records website.

  Johan won't need to be told,of course ;D!!!

NB: Ye olde cheque book may be required!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 10, 2012, 03:59:04 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on Today at 01:52:20Just in case anyone doesn't know,'The Complete Havergal Brian Songbook Vol 1 cd,is now available to order on the Stone Records website.  Johan won't need to be told,of course!!!NB: Ye olde cheque book may be required!!!

No, I don't need to be told - I ordered last week through the HBS. I hope to be able to report back about vol. 1 in a few days' time...

And now back to sleep!

Oh... That Slezak story is indeed correct. I came across it a few times in books about Mahler.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 11, 2012, 01:42:19 AM
Yes!



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 11, 2012, 03:50:26 AM
The Proof! ;D A nice view of you're well stocked book shelves,too! I can see 'The Lord of the Rings',there & some Bruckner,I think? :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 11, 2012, 03:52:31 AM
Indeed... Don't let John see all my Bruckner CDs... And just below the CD you can see a score of Magnard's Chant funèbre...


P.S. I just discovered that Stone Records is based in Haywards Heath, West Sussex - I was there in 1986, visiting a member of the HBS, Dai Davis (yes, of Welsh extraction)...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 11, 2012, 04:06:09 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 11, 2012, 01:42:19 AM
Yes!

Confederacy of Dunces...excellent! One of my favorite novels. Top 10, in fact.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/The%20Songs%20have%20arrived_CROP.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 11, 2012, 04:10:57 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on Today at 14:06:09 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg619442#msg619442)>Confederacy of Dunces...excellent! One of my favorite novels. Top 10, in fact.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/The%20Songs%20have%20arrived_CROP.jpg)


Sarge



A great novel. My cousin always called me Ignatius, because there were a few similarities (then, 1980s) between its protagonist and me (not his weight, by the way!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 11, 2012, 04:18:59 AM
For Cilgwyn, the cassette freak (just found this on Facebook - very funny)...


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 11, 2012, 05:21:58 AM
 ;D I was just looking for one of those the other days! :(

A thought entered my head. Was it just by accident those bic pens fitted those cassettes so well? There was always one lying around. They were (almost) everywhere! And what if they hadn't fitted them? What would you have used? Nothing else ever seemed to fit as well! Other pens were either smooth,or if they were the right shape,too thin! For the average music lover,life could have been very difficult without those bics! :(

Also,did bic make them like that,knowing that they were used for that purpose? You always knew if it wasn't a real bic. Even if it looked exactly like one,it wouldn't fit! :(

Incidentally,I know bics had other assorted usages,besides writing & winding tape! Some I wouldn't care to put in print! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 11, 2012, 05:48:22 AM
Another theory bites the dust! After trying two staedtler pencils,the free ball point from cartidgesave with the rubberised grip did a very good job of rotating a D90 cassette. Although,it didn't actually fit,it just gripped. So,maybe there is something in the 'bic theory',after all?!!!
  Those boffins at the Hadro wotsit collider will be looking into this,soon. Mark my words!

Incidentally,the free pen ploy didn't work. I started getting my ink cartridges from someone else! :)

NB: Completely off topic. Naxos are releasing a new recording of Delius's 'Mass of Life',aren't they? Not being able to get the Groves at a reasonable price & with emi's current obsession with reissuing recordings in multi box sets,this could be a nice,affordable alternative! Nice one,Naxos! :)


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 11, 2012, 08:15:07 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 11, 2012, 04:10:57 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on Today at 14:06:09 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg619442#msg619442)>Confederacy of Dunces...excellent! One of my favorite novels. Top 10, in fact.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/The%20Songs%20have%20arrived_CROP.jpg)


Sarge



A great novel. My cousin always called me Ignatius, because there were a few similarities (then, 1980s) between its protagonist and me (not his weight, by the way!)
Hadn't heard of this book! Tut! Tut! I looked it up immeadiately. The story behind it is a veritable novel in itself!!! Although,as a budding author myself,being awarded a literary prize after I'm dead could be a bit of a downer! :( :( :(

Memo: Must move 'John and Jane' to the bottom shelf! :(

Regarding the Stone Records cd. I think I will order it at the end of this month!
 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 11, 2012, 02:30:39 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on 11-04-2012, 15:48:22 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg619478#msg619478)
NB: Completely off topic. Naxos are releasing a new recording of Delius's 'Mass of Life',aren't they? Not being able to get the Groves at a reasonable price & with emi's current obsession with reissuing recordings in multi box sets,this could be a nice,affordable alternative! Nice one,Naxos! :)



Really? I didn't know that. Not many people seem to like 'A Mass of Life', but I love it. It's Delius's grandest statement, and manages to be intimate as well.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 11, 2012, 04:08:37 PM
I should move to the Delius thread,but I must sat that,in lieu of the Groves,this is a timely release. I hope it's a good one. I will look at the reviews first,of course! (I really Do hope that emi will,eventually,release the Groves recording,separately!)

(Note,I'm filling in here a little,aren't I? ::) ;D) I look forward to your in depth review of the HB Complete Songs cd!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 11, 2012, 04:18:40 PM
I listened to the CD today... Whether I'll give an 'in-depth review', I don't know. It's better others listen to it first, too. I can say two things, though: 1) there are a few unknown (never recorded) songs here I liked very much, they really added to my Brian knowledge; 2) it's a pity not more singers have taken up Brian's songs since Cook's sterling work, I had difficulty eradicating the latter's performances from my brain... The coming days I'll listen to the CD again (and again)...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 13, 2012, 12:09:45 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 11, 2012, 01:42:19 AM
Yes!
That's a nice little mirror you have Johan. Has anyone ever told you that you look like Havergal Brian?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 13, 2012, 12:10:46 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 11, 2012, 03:52:31 AM
Indeed... Don't let John see all my Bruckner CDs... And just below the CD you can see a score of Magnard's Chant funèbre...


P.S. I just discovered that Stone Records is based in Haywards Heath, West Sussex - I was there in 1986, visiting a member of the HBS, Dai Davis (yes, of Welsh extraction)...
Too late. Just spotted 'em.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 13, 2012, 12:15:22 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 11, 2012, 02:30:39 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on 11-04-2012, 15:48:22 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg619478#msg619478)
NB: Completely off topic. Naxos are releasing a new recording of Delius's 'Mass of Life',aren't they? Not being able to get the Groves at a reasonable price & with emi's current obsession with reissuing recordings in multi box sets,this could be a nice,affordable alternative! Nice one,Naxos! :)



Really? I didn't know that. Not many people seem to like 'A Mass of Life', but I love it. It's Delius's grandest statement, and manages to be intimate as well.

Great piece by Fred IMHO. Naxos have just issued the 1956 Olso/Flagstad Gotterdammerung. Patchy but worth it for Flagstad. Oh, sorry, I thought this was theDelius/Wagner thread. I'll push off.......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 13, 2012, 12:17:36 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 11, 2012, 04:18:40 PM
I listened to the CD today... Whether I'll give an 'in-depth review', I don't know. It's better others listen to it first, too. I can say two things, though: 1) there are a few unknown (never recorded) songs here I liked very much, they really added to my Brian knowledge; 2) it's a pity not more singers have taken up Brian's songs since Cook's sterling work, I had difficulty eradicating the latter's performances from my brain... The coming days I'll listen to the CD again (and again)...
Otherwise known as Unicorn Syndrome.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 13, 2012, 12:20:42 AM
I have nothing to say but thought I would like to achieve 5 consecutive posts. Sorted! Off to paint my kitchen table and chairs now. What joy.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 13, 2012, 12:23:04 AM
Your multiple contributions have been noted and very much appreciated. (This reminds me - I still must take a look at your two pieces...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 13, 2012, 05:26:13 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on April 13, 2012, 12:09:45 AM
That's a nice little mirror you have Johan. Has anyone ever told you that you look like Havergal Brian?
:) Mirror Image!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 13, 2012, 09:05:08 AM
Good one!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 13, 2012, 09:50:24 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 13, 2012, 05:26:13 AM
:) Mirror Image!
Quite sharp for a Welsh type :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 13, 2012, 01:13:46 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on April 13, 2012, 12:09:45 AM
That's a nice little mirror you have Johan. Has anyone ever told you that you look like Havergal Brian?
John got there first! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on April 14, 2012, 11:38:54 AM
John, there's lots of very handsome Welshmen.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 16, 2012, 10:00:03 AM
Well it won't be long before I hear that cd! Like you,Johan;it will be hard not to hear Brian Rayner Cook 'in my head',while I'm listening. I must get the Toccata cd,for a comparison with the new one,to see how many songs are first recordings & if there are any more settings of Brian's landlord's poetry! ;D

Can't think I ever had a Landlord who wrote poetry! Fair play to the man!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 17, 2012, 07:44:21 AM
Hi, cilgwyn! Only 1 Masterson masterwork on the Songbook CD (The Soul of Steel) I hope to compare notes with you once you have listened, too...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 17, 2012, 08:28:26 AM
Good! As I said,I'm ordering at the end of the month! I resisted those marvellous LSSO downloads for a few weeks,(that was difficult!) so maybe I can hold out a little longer,before I place my order! ;D The Rayner Cook was one of my all time favourite Brian cd! And the songs are SO 'catchy'!!! Brian really was VERY good at tunes when he put his mind to it! This new cd could see me warbling Brian songs for days on end!!! :o
  I suppose Elgar's,Janus like,equivalent was the incidental music for the 'Starlight Express'! Which could be a bit of a suprise if you only knew him from Gerontius or the Cello Concerto! But,Brian's songs are much 'catchier',(and deeper)I'm afraid! :) A prom recital would be a nice suprise,too!!!
 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 17, 2012, 08:33:04 AM
This vol. 1 also contains a few piano works and the Legend for violin and piano (performed very well!). Volume 2 will be all-song (must be!) 'John Dowland's Fancy' (for piano) gets a very good performance, too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 20, 2012, 06:25:37 PM
The songs disk has arrived in Oz. Will report.....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 21, 2012, 04:21:45 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 20, 2012, 06:25:37 PM
The songs disk has arrived in Oz. Will report.....
My best regards to Dorothy and Toto. Do they like HB?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 21, 2012, 06:40:42 AM
 ;D Don't forget the Munchkins!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on April 21, 2012, 01:40:22 PM
Considering HB's real name was William Brian, they might just be confused enough to equate him with their hero!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 21, 2012, 11:32:25 PM
Hmm, I've listened to the disk, and obviously although it's a fine technical performance from all concerned I'm a bit disappointed by it. Firstly I think the songs on it are not Brian's best, the Rayner Cook disk, being a selection, has some better songs on it, and secondly Mark Stone, in contrast to Rayner Cook, is a more declamatory singer. As I've said before my touchstone for C20 English songs is Finzi's Hardy settings, where Finzi, for nearly every song, comes up with a memorable melody; if he uses declamation it's for dramatic effect ('The Spirt of the Years' 7). I do remember the 'tunes'  for some of the Brian songs on the Rayner Cook disk, especially the Blake settings, but on the Stone disk it is all declamatory and not very melodic.

:(

Obviously I'll get vol 2 when it comes along, and those other songs will be on it, so I can make a comparison.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 23, 2012, 05:44:57 AM
Interesting to 'hear' your thoughts on this. It also shows that,despite received opinion, not all enthusiasts of Brian are crazy about every single thing he wrote. John,in particular,is a celebrated 'Das Siegeslied' hater & I can't say it's a favourite myself!!! As to the songs. I must admit to loving them.....in the Brian Rayner Cook interpretations! The original Lp was one of my most played recordings as a youngster & my only complaint is that,I personally find them so catchy,I find myself singing them for days on end,after listening to them! If I was Brian Rayner Cook,in his prime,that would be great,but I'm not!!! And while I think the songs are underrated & deserve more exposure,I would be the last person to say they are up there with the greatest,but they are full of character & I do think Brian had a good,if rather eccentric,ear for the human voice.
  The problem is,bar Schubert,I'm not really that keen about people warbling away to piano's,although there are exceptions & Brian's songs are one of them!
  As to the Mark Stone cd;I haven't heard it yet,so I can't comment,but I DO wonder whether anyone could sing them with quite the same level of insight as Cook. Also,maybe the people behind the original recording cherry picked the best! (Well,they would,wouldn't they?!) I presume allot of thought must have gone into choosing the best songs to fit the duration of a single Lp (or thereabouts),so it is quite possible that they a) left out some because they didn't think they were up to the same level of inspiration,or b) they merely left them out because they wouldn't all fit? Either way,unless they had resorted to a 2lp set,they wouldn't have been able to record them all.
 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 23, 2012, 03:05:45 PM
As far as I can see the Stone CD is part of two volume complete songs set and they have arranged them chronologically. The second CD will presumably include the later (and better) songs. Can't see why they didn't issue that one first, to gain more interest.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 23, 2012, 03:26:44 PM
I think vol. 2 will be a similar chronological mix, if I'm not mistaken. The HBS Webmaster will know...


I have kept quiet so far about the CD. Mark Stone's voice and diction were things I had to get used to. The disc contains a few favourite Brian songs of mine, like 'Care-Charmer Sleep', 'The Soul of Steel' and 'When icicles hang by the wall', and to be honest, I don't think Brian Rayner Cook's renditions have been superseded. Yes, Brian's vocal style is 'declamatory' and sometimes not easy on the ear. The soloist must have a strong, expressive voice, and he really has to get into the words and wring every meaning out of them. Then Brian's songs can become little gems. I don't think Mark Stone is wholly successful, there are signs of strain in his upper register and he sometimes 'glides' into a note instead of hitting it in one glorious go. It gives a slightly 'wailing' quality to his singing. I also don't like his vowels... Singing voices are terribly personal. Sir Peter Pears and Schwarzkopf are two singers I don't like, for example. So it maybe just me.


I hate to be critical, Brian CDs are still an event. Still, I am looking forward to Vol. 2, with several Blake songs.


And I am now very much interested in Finzi's Hardy settings! I love Hardy's poetry.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 23, 2012, 03:49:01 PM
I actually rather like Peter Pears's singing,strangely enough;but ONLY in Britten & english song!!!!! Elisabeth Schwarzkopf,I can't stand. I find her an overrated,matronly sounding battle axe! Her so called classic recordings of,amongst others,Der Rosenkavalier,Hansel & Gretel & Mozart opera's are definately right at the bottom of my cd shopping list! Of course,these recordings include some other marvellous singers,but her contribution always puts me clean off! Her classic operetta recordings are even 'worse'. Where is the humour & fun? Walter Legge didn't have a clue in this repertory! Give me Boskovsky or the underrated Wallberg or Mattes in this genre,any day! And Edda Moser had to be the best Hanna Glawari,(Merry Widow) not that old trout! But oh dear,she's not the great Schwarzkopf,so the newer,Wallberg, emi recording is long deleted! :(
End of rant & no offence intended to Schwarzkopf admirers;it's only an opinion,that's all!
  Anyway,getting back to Brian ;D,regarding the Mark Stone cd,I will have to just wait & see! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 23, 2012, 03:53:26 PM
Pears actually spoiled Britten for me... Ah, taste!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on April 23, 2012, 05:31:00 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 23, 2012, 03:49:01 PM
I actually rather like Peter Pears's singing,strangely enough;but ONLY in Britten & english song!!!!! Elisabeth Schwarzkopf,I can't stand. I find her an overrated,matronly sounding battle axe! Her so called classic recordings of,amongst others,Der Rosenkavalier,Hansel & Gretel & Mozart opera's are definately right at the bottom of my cd shopping list! Of course,these recordings include some other marvellous singers,but her contribution always puts me clean off! Her classic operetta recordings are even 'worse'. Where is the humour & fun? Walter Legge didn't have a clue in this repertory! Give me Boskovsky or the underrated Wallberg or Mattes in this genre,any day! And Edda Moser had to be the best Hanna Glawari,(Merry Widow) not that old trout! But oh dear,she's not the great Schwarzkopf,so the newer,Wallberg, emi recording is long deleted! :(
End of rant & no offence intended to Schwarzkopf admirers;it's only an opinion,that's all!
  Anyway,getting back to Brian ;D,regarding the Mark Stone cd,I will have to just wait & see! ;D

Try Cheryl Studer conducted by John Eliot Gardiner.

I don't have that many Schwarzkopf recordings, and those mostly Mahler ones; and since a number of her recordings were done with Karajan as conductor,  I don't have them because I usually avoid Karajan.
I have to say she rather underwhelmed me in the Callas Turandot, but then I don't really like that recording in general.  (Speaking of Turandot,  Pears did a very good turn as the Emperor in the Mehta/Sutherland-Caballe-Pavarotti recording,  unlike his equivalent in the Callas, who can barely be heard, thanks to a strange engineering decision--apparently they tried to make him seem distant and god like, and succeeded only in making him almost inaudible.)


While typing the above I had a sudden vision of Karajan conducting a Brian symphony.  Shudders and horrors followed.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 23, 2012, 06:09:12 PM
Gardiner?!!! No,it's got to be Edda Moser for me;it's the one I grew up with, & a German or Austrian conductor.Dear,oh dear,I'm such a stick in the mud!But I've always though the Wallberg was a horribly underrated recording,with two of my all time favourite singers,Donath & Prey & I can always hear it in my head!!! :o I just think they do it better than us! :o Having said that,I must admit I'm not really that into operetta,these days,G&S aside! (I used to love Emmerich Kalman & Oscar Straus,too!) These days,I prefer Lortzing when I want something lightweight. I've got a couple of his opera's.They're a bit like operetta,but with just a tiny bit more 'meat'! Pears in Turandot sounds a little intriguing,but that reminds me,I can't stand Pavarotti! I find his voice has a hardness to it & Italian opera,isn't really my cup of tea,I'm afraid! I DO like Rossini though!
(A particularly lovely operetta,that really deserves to be better known,springs to mind,here,Carl Zeller's Der Vogelhandler!)

Actually,Karajan conducting the Gothic :)...but then he wouldn't even conduct Elgar,would he?!
Golovanov might have been fun!!!! As to Bernstein,who,rumour has it,WAS interested,one can only dream!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Winky Willy on April 23, 2012, 07:59:58 PM
I wonder if we could return to my question asked probably 25 pages ago  ;D
How would everyone rank the performances of the Gothic? Favorite to least favorite, best to worst?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 23, 2012, 08:58:18 PM
Quote from: Winky Willy on April 23, 2012, 07:59:58 PM
I wonder if we could return to my question asked probably 25 pages ago  ;D
How would everyone rank the performances of the Gothic? Favorite to least favorite, best to worst?

The Brabbins performance is in a class by itself. No other recorded performance can compare IMHO.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2012, 03:19:58 AM
Answering Willy Winky's question would be 1) a hell of a task and 2) impossible for me, at the moment.


First I lived with the Boult 'Gothic' for years and years. I did get the Schmidt 'Gothic' (courtesy of composer John Pickard who studied in the Netherlands at that time, with Louis Andriessen), but for one reason or another, it failed to make an impression (still doesn't). So - Boult ruled. Then Lenard entered the scene, and several passages really shone in his performance (especially the ending of the Judex movement.) Almost 20 years - nothing. Then, all of a sudden, we get two 'Gothics' in close succession, the Curro and the Brabbins, both better, in places, than anything that went before. Ranking all 5 performances is, as yet, impossible for me. Every one of them has its glories and its drawbacks. I think that, overall, Brabbins is the best-played. I would have added 'best recorded', too, if I didn't begin to doubt that after reading an expert's view, the expert being Mike LeVoi, the sound engineer of the Brisbane performance. He may be a bit biased, but this is his verdict (in an email to me):

"I am unimpressed.

I have just forked out $20 and downloaded the FLAC CD quality Hyperion release. Some good news:
1 The awful organ entry at 1 minute into Judex has been tamed down – although it is quite audible later on.

2 The Hyperion engineers have done some pitch shifting and the whole section where the choirs went flat is now at pitch.
The bad news:

The engineers have still applied too much compression! The BBC broadcast was atrocious in this regard – and I did expect them to get it right for the CD. Alas, the Hyperion release is 9 dB louder than my production – and I mastered to 0 dB! - you can even hear the "rumble in the hall" – they have the compression up so high. Do these people have cloth ears? Do they think they are making a Pop Record? Sigh ...

In an attempt to duplicate their sound I added 6 dB to the processing of my master before the compression and limiting stage. Thus I can make my version as loud and brash as theirs. Of course, it sounds too false – so I tried 3 dB as a compromise. The highs are now more prominent, there is more oomph – and it does not sound stupid like the Hyperion release.
Ah well, this does means that I do have the best recorded version of the work ..."



Oh, talking abut the Brisbane 'Gothic', this is what music critic Alex Ross tweeted yesterday: 'The Curse of the Gothic Symphony', the Australian documentary about Havergal Brian's monster work, is a delight.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on April 24, 2012, 11:35:48 AM
I agree with Mike LeVoi; his is undoubtedly the most 'natural' Gothic space to my ears; although as someone who listens to the music rather than the recording, the Brabbins recording doesn't sound that bad to me, especially given the Albert Hall's acoustic challenges, and the fact that Brabbins had many more performers to control. As someone who was in the hall on the night (about ten metres to the left of Mr Herrenberg!) the dynamic range varied from the quiet to the almost painful, and it's a tribute to the engineers that the CD recording copes with it as well as it does.

Johan, I'm sorry that you don't rate the Schmidt: my desert island Gothic would be the Schmidt (just - from the Brabbins) as it is truly epic and to me actually sounds 'bigger' in places than Brabbins', even though it was short of the numbers by a couple of hundred or so. I suppose that fact that I was at that one as well colours my view of it, but to me it's more visceral than any other performance. I'm an orchestral percussionist in my downtime, and Brian entrusts a lot to the percussion so I like to hear it, and the LSO percussion comes through the best for me: one thing I'd have wished for in the Proms performance and recording was to hear more of the tam-tam, which was only really audible in the silence before the second 'non confundar' in the sixth movement, whereas its clear presence in the Schmidt adds an extra dimension to not only that moment, but in the build up to the cataclysmic silence at the end of the vivace third movement and the underpinning of the baritone in the finale. And the six cymbal players ranged across the back of the stage made their presence felt (audibly so in the BBC transmission) more so than Brabbins' who, apart from the principal cymbal were all sitting together on the left. But these are small points in the grand scheme of things, when you're talking about controlling a hair over a thousand people.

Each of the performances so far has had its unique perspectives (I wish there had been a recording of the premiere under Fairfax) so I can't give a 'least favourite'. My first listening choice is the Schmidt - not so closely recorded as the Brabbins and therefore with more of a sense of scale - and the LSO is terrifying! The first time I ever heard the Gothic was at the Albert Hall performance in 1980, and I could not believe my ears. Then Brabbins for the intricate detail. Boult excels in the Judex movement but I don't find myself returning to his performance much. Lenard I find curiously uninvolving in many places, although he does find some exquisite moments in the last movement - or is that Brian's doing? Curro has drilled his orchestra well but as a whole it's less polished - however the recording is very good!

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on April 24, 2012, 03:41:13 PM
Frankly, I am not really interested in reading the views of the Brisbane sound engineer on the Brabbins/Royal Albert Hall performance. He may be absolutely correct in everything he says; I doubt whether I am qualified to give an opinion.

The whole experience of being in the RAH and hearing/seeing the Gothic live-which, sadly, may be the only time I have that enormous pleasure-was truly amazing and fantastic.  It will live with me until my dying day.

One can, if one wishes, pick holes here and there in different aspects of the performance of the soloists or the orchestra or the choirs or the organist. One can discuss-as is your privilege- Brabbins's interpretation in contrast to that of Boult or Schmidt or Lenard or Curro. One can comment, adversely, if you wish, on the sound quality both in the hall and on disc.

All of that pales into insignificance compared to the immensity of Brian's vision and the glorious execution of that vision in music of such power, majesty and beauty.

The 1966 Boult performance has a particular sense of occasion for me simply because I think of it as the first truly professional performance with the 77-year old Sir Adrian conducting such vast forces and the 90-year old composer sitting in the audience and coming on stage at the end to receive such a thunderous ovation. I recall listening on the radio and being moved to tears.

The Lenard recording has a different but equally powerful impact because it was the first time I had heard the work properly in modern sound.

The Brabbins performance I witnessed personally and the cds are the record of that performance in the (unlikely) event that my memory of a great evening will ever fade.

These are extra-musical reasons why each of these three (at least) will always remain "special" to me; why I shall always hold each of them in especial affection.

That is all I need. The rest is as nothing compared to the sum of the whole.

I am sorry to have interrupted your discussion but I shall need to leave you to your further ruminations ;D  I do not-in any sense-offer my thoughts as criticism of such discussion. It is pertinent, perceptive and, clearly, of great interest.  It is, simply, not for me the issue which matters.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 25, 2012, 04:42:29 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on April 24, 2012, 03:41:13 PM
Frankly, I am not really interested in reading the views of the Brisbane sound engineer on the Brabbins/Royal Albert Hall performance. He may be absolutely correct in everything he says; I doubt whether I am qualified to give an opinion.The whole experience of being in the RAH and hearing/seeing the Gothic live-which, sadly, may be the only time I have that enormous pleasure-was truly amazing and fantastic.  It will live with me until my dying day.

One can, if one wishes, pick holes here and there in different aspects of the performance of the soloists or the orchestra or the choirs or the organist. One can discuss-as is your privilege- Brabbins's interpretation in contrast to that of Boult or Schmidt or Lenard or Curro. One can comment, adversely, if you wish, on the sound quality both in the hall and on disc.

All of that pales into insignificance compared to the immensity of Brian's vision and the glorious execution of that vision in music of such power, majesty and beauty.

The 1966 Boult performance has a particular sense of occasion for me simply because I think of it as the first truly professional performance with the 77-year old Sir Adrian conducting such vast forces and the 90-year old composer sitting in the audience and coming on stage at the end to receive such a thunderous ovation. I recall listening on the radio and being moved to tears.

The Lenard recording has a different but equally powerful impact because it was the first time I had heard the work properly in modern sound.

The Brabbins performance I witnessed personally and the cds are the record of that performance in the (unlikely) event that my memory of a great evening will ever fade.

These are extra-musical reasons why each of these three (at least) will always remain "special" to me; why I shall always hold each of them in especial affection.

That is all I need. The rest is as nothing compared to the sum of the whole.

I am sorry to have interrupted your discussion but I shall need to leave you to your further ruminations ;D  I do not-in any sense-offer my thoughts as criticism of such discussion. It is pertinent, perceptive and, clearly, of great interest.  It is, simply, not for me the issue which matters.
Spot on. Totally agree with you. All of a sudden Hyperion don't know what they are doing. Really? Anyway, if recording quality is that important around 99% of the great performances captured on 78s, tapes, etc are virtually written off. I always advise that listening through the recording is the way to approach it. Obviously it's preferable to have good sound but that's of no importance whatsoever if the performance is rubbish. I also hold the opinion that some of the great analogue recordings, remasterd to CD sound superior to many of the digital horrors being churned out nowadays. So there.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 25, 2012, 07:58:59 AM
I have some cds of orchestral recordings made in the late twenties & I'm sure that you can hear more detail than on some modern recordings.Of course,digital remastering 'cleans up'the surface noise a bit,but they are still something to marvel at! This is probably often because more care had to be taken in capturing the sound of each instrument. These days,with the technology available,there is a tendency to be lazy about the set up & you get these boomy soundings recordings,which sound impressive,listened to superficially,with the volume turned up,but you can't really hear all the detail. Anyway,John knows far more about this than me,so I'll leave it at that! :o
  Not sure of what late 20's technology would have made of the Gothic,though. Oskar Fried recorded Mahler's Second,Bruckner's Seventh & Strauss's 'Alpine Symphony',in front of an acoustic horn! If only someone could have sent him a copy of the score!!! ;D

Incidentally,the Gothic would have taken up quite a few 78's;but then again,Pathe recorded complete opera's in the early 1900's!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 25, 2012, 08:05:34 AM
Liked your remark about the Alpine symphony, cilgwyn!  ;D


As for a recording being perfect - I am no sound fetishist, as John will know. All that counts is intensity, if that is there, you can experience great music-making through the crackle and hiss.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 25, 2012, 01:15:50 PM
Alex Ross' piece about 'The Curse of the Gothic':


(http://alexrossmusic.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451cb2869e2016765a21a64970b-400wi)


As promised, I attended a Sarasota Film Festival screening of The Curse of the Gothic Symphony, a documentary about the Australian premiere of Havergal Brian's mammoth First Symphony, the "Gothic," in 2010. It's a slightly overwrought but generally delightful movie, its appeal likely to extend beyond the fairly limited circle of people who believe that Brian is a neglected master of twentieth-century symphonic writing. The "curse" in question is the malign force that has allegedly hovered over and within the work since its inception, when Brian is said to have gone to bed certain nights and found upon waking that an unknown hand had scribbled devilish curses in his manuscript. Randall Wood, the director of the documentary, makes too much of the diabolical rumors, staging spooky reënactments of episodes from Brian's life and cueing lightning and thunder. Nonetheless, it does seem that the quest to present the "Gothic" in Brisbane — a nearly lifelong endeavor on the part of the broadcaster Gary Thorpe — encountered more than the usual obstacles: financing falls through, choruses fall behind schedule, presenters get cold feet, and a mood of perpetual panic sets in. Colorful personalities add fuel to the fire: John Curro, the conductor, goes around predicting imminent doom, and then, at the end, happily pronounces that he always knew it would work out.

Some of the best footage comes from a trip to the United Kingdom. In one scene we are privileged to observe a meeting of the Havergal Brian Society, at which the projected Brisbane performance and other pressing matters are discussed. At one point, a member asks what might be done to raise Brian's profile during the period of the London Olympics, to which another sagely responds, "I wonder if the sports audience is the most receptive." The genial Scottish critic Malcolm MacDonald follows the Brisbane saga from afar, comments on the composer's life and work (with the inevitable cat in his lap), and finally makes the journey Down Under for the big event. Then there is Olga Pringle, the composer's nonagenarian daughter, who is seen in her snowbound house in Ballater, Scotland, feeding blackbirds on her windowsill and suggesting that her father's mightiest creation might best be "put in a box and buried." We get a few glimpses of Brian himself, via BBC television footage; his personal motto, we are told, was "Nothing matters." Comic touches aside, the documentary is a fine portrait of obsession in action. Both the film and the symphony carry an epigraph from Faust: "Whoever exerts himself with endless striving / That man we can redeem."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 25, 2012, 02:24:31 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on April 25, 2012, 04:42:29 AM
All of a sudden Hyperion don't know what they are doing.

My experience is that Hyperion are rather poor in the technical department and only the fact they champion composers that other labels don't rescues their reputation. For example, I have a couple of early Hyperion CDs with very audible clicks in them. When raising this with Hyperion they explained these (unapologetically) as the result of the splicing cuts on the master tape.

:o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 26, 2012, 01:23:45 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 25, 2012, 02:24:31 PM
My experience is that Hyperion are rather poor in the technical department and only the fact they champion composers that other labels don't rescues their reputation. For example, I have a couple of early Hyperion CDs with very audible clicks in them. When raising this with Hyperion they explained these (unapologetically) as the result of the splicing cuts on the master tape.

:o
Very strange, my experience is just the opposite. The Bantock and Bob Simpson CDs are magnificent.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on April 26, 2012, 12:27:55 PM
Never had a problem with Hyperion. Love 'em. Their Gothic is wonderful.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 26, 2012, 03:19:57 PM
"Then there is Olga Pringle, the composer's nonagenarian daughter, who is seen in her snowbound house in Ballater, Scotland, feeding blackbirds on her windowsill and suggesting that her father's mightiest creation might best be "put in a box and buried." "

Well, at least one of Brian's children inherited his temperament!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 26, 2012, 03:45:02 PM
Re Hyperion: I just don't think of Hyperion as a label you go to for outstanding recordings, you just go to them for repertoire which isn't available elsewhere.

I think of Hyperion sound as quite distant and flat. I'm very grateful for the Simpson recordings, but I think almost any other label could have produced a better sound.

Another grouch is the way on the early Simpson CDs they chopped the music up into tracks that cut across the movements of the works. The problem with this is that you have no idea how long each track is, so at track 10 the liner notes say "a development of this material ensues" and you've no idea whether it's going to go on for 2 minutes or 20 minutes. They should have had tracks that followed the movements and liner notes indicating time within the movement, so you know you have a ten minute movement and the liner notes say "at 4' 40" a development section begins".

However in the later Simposn CDs they gave up this idea.

Sorry for grumbling.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2012, 08:21:38 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on April 26, 2012, 01:23:45 AM
Very strange, my experience is just the opposite. Hyperion usually get allot of praise for their recordings! The Bantock and Bob Simpson CDs are magnificent.
Must admit,I've not heard this opinion before. Having said that,I didn't like their recording of Holsts's choral symphony. The sound balance is all wrong & I had to keep fiddling about with the volume. But then the emi Boult recording was finally reissued,so I snapped up a copy. The Hyperion recording went to a charity shop! I didn't really like the performance,anyway!
  As to Olga Pringle. I can't speak for her;but I always got the feeling that Brian's 'grouchiness' was really just his very dry sense of humour. Like his comments at the (professional) premiere of the Gothic. The one's about the seats getting to his knees & having heard it all before in his head (I haven't got the exact quotes to hand!). Underneath that gruff exterior,I think he was actually very pleased! He certainly wasn't a miserable old sod like Joseph Holbrooke,or the more bearable,but embittered,Cyril Scott!
  The libretto of The Tigers opera includes one of the most bizarre (probably THE most bizarre!) line I have ever heard,emerge from an opera singer's mouth. "You are very heavy on you're underthings,Sir John!" Again,not an exact quote;but it's the bit where the 'Colonel' (?) is in bed. You have to have a very droll sense of humour to pen something like that! :o

Anyway;this is what this message board is all about;music & opinions! There are actually people here who think Bruckner was a clown!!! :o ;D

Incidentally,which circus was he in? Chipperfields,or,Billy Smarts?!!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2012, 08:34:05 AM
That Tigers quote is word-perfect (apart from the 'you're', of course...) That sentence has always struck me, too!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2012, 09:03:35 AM
It certainly brought a smile to my face,and my mothers....I think?!!! :o ;D
'Sk*d marks',is another way of putting it!!! :( :o
  Incidentally,didn't Brian consider including this as another possible movement for the 'Symphonic Dances? (Act 2,Scene 1,not the sk*d mark! ;D)) Or wasn't it suggested somewhere? It could make a nice addition,if someone made a new recording of them.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on April 27, 2012, 11:19:51 AM
Very glad to see Brian talked about elsewhere on these boards. A refreshing change.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 28, 2012, 05:22:48 AM
It's nice to see him talked about here,too,now and again. In between Bruckner,Messiaen,Tolkein,Delius,Seinfeld,Dads Army,the nicks and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 29, 2012, 01:13:04 AM
STOP PRESS: according to John Grimshaw in the latest HBS Newsletter, which I just read -


At the end of May our President Martyn Brabbins and the Royal Scottish National Orchestra will be recording the Violin Concerto (with Lorraine McAslan), Symphony no. 13 and English Suite no. 4, plus another short work if time allows.



This will be a very varied disc. Can't wait!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 29, 2012, 06:17:01 AM
Lorraine McAslan? Didn't know she was a Brianite?!!! Wow! That should be good! Symphony No 13 has become a bit of a favourite here,too,as you know! (Along with No 14,another contendor for a recording!) & the English Suite No 4,could do with a professional recording!
  This looks like imaginative programming & the Bisengaliev recording of the Concerto HAS been a bit controversial!
The Violin Concerto is one Brian work that has received allot of positive reactions,even from,generally more,sceptical quarters of the 'music press'!

Can't wait!!!! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 29, 2012, 07:24:03 AM
I have never heard of Lorraine McAslan... Any new performance of the VC is to be welcomed! If it sits in the middle between Holmes and, no, not Watson, but Bisengaliev, it could be perfect. I hope Brabbins will mind his tempi...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on April 29, 2012, 08:11:24 AM
Very good news. I've recently been concentrating on symphonies 13 & 14 because I didn't know them well enough. It turns out that under that gritty exterior they are both excellent and I'm slavering to hear a good recording of 13 especially by Martin Brabbins.

One day I'll catch up with Johan on Brianologistics.......one day.

Why is there no smiley of hopefulness? :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 29, 2012, 08:39:19 AM
Actually,once you 'crack' them,curiously enough,No's 13 & 14,strike me as two of Brian's most approachable & addictive & rewarding creations. No's 14-15,in particular,make a particularly good sequence on a cd-r. To anyone who finds Brians later symphonies a bit difficult to get into,or even,a 'closed book',hearing them in sequence like this really DOES help!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 29, 2012, 08:42:27 AM
By the way,talking about 'addictive',Hattoff! Once I 'cracked' No's 13 & 14,I had them on repeat for days! In fact,they are now,VERY firmly,'up there' with my favourite Brian symphonies.

I see Presto Classical are now advertising 'The Complete Havergal Brian Song Book Vol 1,as a pre-order (Release date:May 14th).
Hmv price (on there,now) £10,post free! So,I've placed my order,now! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 29, 2012, 09:11:52 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 29, 2012, 07:24:03 AM
I have never heard of Lorraine McAslan... Any new performance of the VC is to be welcomed! If it sits in the middle between Holmes and, no, not Watson, but Bisengaliev, it could be perfect. I hope Brabbins will mind his tempi...
She's a very good violinist. She's made top class recordings of the Britten concerto on Collins Classics (now on Naxos?) and the Elgar sonata. No reason to think that her Brian won't be excellent.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 29, 2012, 09:16:47 AM
Yes,she certainly has a good track record & in some rarities,too. This could be the recording that Bisengaliev 'nay sayers' have been looking for! And no reason why it shouldn't be. You only have to go on Amazon & look at all her recordings!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 29, 2012, 10:33:37 AM
Just saw this on Twitter... It seems they use 'The Unknown Warrior'...

@VirtuosoChannel: Havergal Brian: Composer Profile | Watch on Virtuoso Channel http://t.co/tUoQu7Zp
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on April 29, 2012, 02:06:25 PM
Excellent news indeed :) :)

I presume that we are talking Dutton here ???   If so, it makes a welcome (to me, at least) change from so much 'soft romantic' music Dutton sems recently to have recorded ;D

Like Cilgwyn I too have a soft spot for Symphonies Nos. 13 and 14 and could never see eye to eye with Malcolm, in particular about No.14. No. 13 has an absolutely magnificent opening, solemn, grim, menacing.

Lorraine McAslan is certainly a fine violinist :) She did the William Alwyn Violin Concerto for Naxos and the two Richard Arnell, the Arthur Benjamin, the York Bowen and the Lionel Sainsbury  for Dutton...so she is a bit of a specialist in British music :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 29, 2012, 02:14:38 PM
Yes, it's Dutton, Colin. So just the sound will be already something to look forward to...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on April 29, 2012, 02:22:44 PM
Just eleven symphonies to go now ;D

(Nos. 5, 14, 19, 21, 22, 23, 24, 26, 27, 28 and 29).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 29, 2012, 02:30:28 PM
Make that (only) nine - 21 and 22 were recorded in the 1970s, as you know, on the Unicorn and CBS labels. Both LPs are now available, in admirable restorations, as CDs or downloads, at Curt Timmon's Klassic Haus website...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on April 29, 2012, 02:35:35 PM
Of course, yes.   I had forgotten the transfers of Nos. 21 and 22. I have just ordered both from Klassic Haus ;D

Ok...that leaves Nos. 5, 14, 19, 23, 24, 26, 27, 28 and 29.

Well...leaving aside No.5, you could get the other eight onto two cds ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 29, 2012, 03:44:51 PM
Re the new disk, this is excellent news, and it should be a fascinating release. The fact they are featuring three quite different works may indicate they have long term plans for more disks, eventually covering more of HB.

Hope so.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 29, 2012, 03:46:55 PM
It's very good news,indeed,that Dutton are continuing their interest in Brian. I was afraid it might be Naxos! ;D Only nine to go?!!! I'd also like to see someone have another go at No3,but first things first,as they say!
  So now,already,in 2012,we have the Stone records Volume 1 of the songs & another Dutton cd in the offing! If you tell me there's even more on the way,now,I'll eat my metaphorical hat!
Which reminds me,I must get one for the summer! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on April 29, 2012, 05:01:31 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 29, 2012, 03:46:55 PM
It's very good news,indeed,that Dutton are continuing their interest in Brian. I was afraid it might be Naxos! ;D Only nine to go?!!! I'd also like to see someone have another go at No3,but first things first,as they say!
  So now,already,in 2012,we have the Stone records Volume 1 of the songs & another Dutton cd in the offing! If you tell me there's even more on the way,now,I'll eat my metaphorical hat!
Which reminds me,I must get one for the summer! ;D

I presume that the hat for the summer is to keep the rain off your head ??? ::) :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 30, 2012, 02:38:19 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 29, 2012, 10:33:37 AM
Just saw this on Twitter... It seems they use 'The Unknown Warrior'...

@VirtuosoChannel: Havergal Brian: Composer Profile | Watch on Virtuoso Channel http://t.co/tUoQu7Zp
Glad to see that my upload is getting some views. It all helps the HB cause.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 30, 2012, 02:48:50 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on April 29, 2012, 02:35:35 PM
Of course, yes.   I had forgotten the transfers of Nos. 21 and 22. I have just ordered both from Klassic Haus ;D

Ok...that leaves Nos. 5, 14, 19, 23, 24, 26, 27, 28 and 29.

Well...leaving aside No.5, you could get the other eight onto two cds ;D
Talking of Klassic Haus, I'm just working with Curt on a 70 minute Tippett/Ives/LSSO compilation. All live performances including Piano Concerto, Shires Suite, Circus Band with SMT conducting. A Child of Our Time to follow. We didn't half play some peculiar stuff. Talking of which, back to Brian........ :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on May 08, 2012, 06:03:19 AM
Over a week since anybody has posted on this thread :o As a result it had drifted down to Page 3 :o  So...to rectify that-

I received this morning through the post the cd versions of the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra's recordings of the 10th, 21st and 22nd symphonies. I shall add my thanks to John Whitmore for his involvement in this project :)

However-and I know this has already been commented on but I can now add my voice from first-hand knowledge-the cd booklet notes are quite outrageous :( How anybody can be expected to read such miniscule type is quite beyond me. It will require a magnifying glass (I think that I have one somewhere in the attic ;D). What can Curt Timmons have been thinking of ??? ::) If the issue was cost, as I imagine it must have been, then ditch the notes altogether or, better still, the ideal solution: put them up as a downloadable pdf on the website rather than this  :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 08, 2012, 06:28:18 AM
Hi, Colin! Thanks for bumping the dormant Brian thread (all the Brianites are busy, I think, me included). I downloaded both CDs, so I don't know what you are looking at... There were some newspaper cuttings included (made by John) and a scan of the original LP sleeve note, which was rather illegible, too... You could write to Curt, perhaps he can help you.


KlassicHaus@cox.net
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 08, 2012, 07:51:12 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 08, 2012, 06:03:19 AM
Over a week since anybody has posted on this thread :o As a result it had drifted down to Page 3 :o  So...to rectify that-

I received this morning through the post the cd versions of the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra's recordings of the 10th, 21st and 22nd symphonies. I shall add my thanks to John Whitmore for his involvement in this project :)

However-and I know this has already been commented on but I can now add my voice from first-hand knowledge-the cd booklet notes are quite outrageous :( How anybody can be expected to read such miniscule type is quite beyond me. It will require a magnifying glass (I think that I have one somewhere in the attic ;D). What can Curt Timmons have been thinking of ??? ::) If the issue was cost, as I imagine it must have been, then ditch the notes altogether or, better still, the ideal solution: put them up as a downloadable pdf on the website rather than this  :(
I only have the downloads which included artwork for front cover and the tray insert. Everything on 10/21 is very readable. 22/Psalm 23 does have a bottom paragraph showing recording details in size 8 print. I can read it but that's not the issue. Is this paragraph the problem? I have to take blame for this because I signed it off. Please clarify. Also, did you get all the downloads of my press cuttings etc? The bundle includes my article in the HBS newsletter. I will send them if you haven't got them. Please get back to me - do you like the actual CDs?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on May 08, 2012, 08:09:18 AM
Since it was Havergal Brian I decided to splash out on the actual cds themselves rather than get the downloads. The cds were sent-very promptly, I might add, from an address in Oklahoma City.

The entire back page of the original LP is squeezed onto around two-thirds of the back of a single sheet cd cover page. I can assure you that the print is both faded and so minute as to be totally unreadable. I need glasses for long-sight but not to read text. I cannot read the notes...simple as. All that came through the post were the two cds and a packing slip receipt. There is no other documentation.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 08, 2012, 08:38:30 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 08, 2012, 08:09:18 AM
Since it was Havergal Brian I decided to splash out on the actual cds themselves rather than get the downloads. The cds were sent-very promptly, I might add, from an address in Oklahoma City.

The entire back page of the original LP is squeezed onto around two-thirds of the back of a single sheet cd cover page. I can assure you that the print is both faded and so minute as to be totally unreadable. I need glasses for long-sight but not to read text. I cannot read the notes...simple as. All that came through the post were the two cds and a packing slip receipt. There is no other documentation.
OK. This really shouldn't have been included. I will contact Curt. I've just made pdfs pof both sleeves. Send me an email so that I have your address and I will get them to you. I will also include the bundle of reviews and documents.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on May 08, 2012, 09:12:03 AM
Thanks, John.  Will do :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 08, 2012, 09:34:15 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 08, 2012, 09:12:03 AM
Thanks, John.  Will do :)
Hi Colin. It's your email address I need.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on May 08, 2012, 04:59:59 PM
Setting aside the issue of the cd presentation for the time being, you asked, John, what I thought of the cds themselves.

I listened to both while driving to and from Edinburgh this evening. I found the experience of listening to the music again actually rather moving. The performance by the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra, particularly of Symphonies Nos. 10 and 21, is quite simply staggering. Brian is difficult enough for any orchestra to tackle but for an orchestra of school kids ???  Wow :) The commitment, the energy, the enthusiasm, the attack....I would not have known that I was not listening to a professional orchestra. The LSSO at that time must have been one of the finest school orchestras in the world. The brass, especially, are absolutely magnificent. The very ending of No.21 with that thunderous orchestral fortissimo, followed by the hammering timpani is mind-blowing.

I cannot adequately express my delight and my unqualified admiration for the teenagers involved. It just goes to show how youthful enthusiasm and dedication can sometimes prove more satisfying than the more obviously expected professionalism of an adult orchestra.

I still struggle a bit to come to terms with the terse brevity of No.22 but Psalm 23 is so much better than in the Bostock recording for Classico. Nor should one forget the conducting of Loughran, Pinkett and Heltay. That must have been when Loughran was at his peak. What ever happened to that man's later career ??? :(

Huge thumbs up ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 08, 2012, 05:04:33 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 08, 2012, 08:09:18 AM
Since it was Havergal Brian I decided to splash out on the actual cds themselves rather than get the downloads. The cds were sent-very promptly, I might add, from an address in Oklahoma City.

The entire back page of the original LP is squeezed onto around two-thirds of the back of a single sheet cd cover page. I can assure you that the print is both faded and so minute as to be totally unreadable. I need glasses for long-sight but not to read text. I cannot read the notes...simple as. All that came through the post were the two cds and a packing slip receipt. There is no other documentation.
I don't want to upset the apple cart,here;but I must admit I found the notes perfectly legible using my electron microscope! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 08, 2012, 05:08:09 PM
Actually,I got the download,Dundonnell! :o ;D
As to the performances of 10 & 21. Marvellous! It takes me right back!
If only I was a teenager,again! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 08, 2012, 11:05:27 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 08, 2012, 05:04:33 PM
I don't want to upset the apple cart,here;but I must admit I found the notes perfectly legible using my electron microscope! ;D
Good tip.Do Aldi sell them? I'll call in later.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 09, 2012, 01:44:09 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 08, 2012, 04:59:59 PM
Setting aside the issue of the cd presentation for the time being, you asked, John, what I thought of the cds themselves.

I listened to both while driving to and from Edinburgh this evening. I found the experience of listening to the music again actually rather moving. The performance by the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra, particularly of Symphonies Nos. 10 and 21, is quite simply staggering. Brian is difficult enough for any orchestra to tackle but for an orchestra of school kids ???  Wow :) The commitment, the energy, the enthusiasm, the attack....I would not have known that I was not listening to a professional orchestra. The LSSO at that time must have been one of the finest school orchestras in the world. The brass, especially, are absolutely magnificent. The very ending of No.21 with that thunderous orchestral fortissimo, followed by the hammering timpani is mind-blowing.

I cannot adequately express my delight and my unqualified admiration for the teenagers involved. It just goes to show how youthful enthusiasm and dedication can sometimes prove more satisfying than the more obviously expected professionalism of an adult orchestra.

I still struggle a bit to come to terms with the terse brevity of No.22 but Psalm 23 is so much better than in the Bostock recording for Classico. Nor should one forget the conducting of Loughran, Pinkett and Heltay. That must have been when Loughran was at his peak. What ever happened to that man's later career ??? :(

Huge thumbs up ;D ;D ;D
Nice review :D Delighted you like the discs. Loughran was doing really well at one point in his career but when he moved from Scotland to Manchester the impetus seemed to drain away. I wonder if following Barbirolli was too much of a task? The Halle declined for quite a time and Loughran just disappeared from view. Very strange. On the subject of conductors, Eric Pinkett was the key man in all of this. He did all the weekly rehearsals, got the orchestra up to a certain standard so that all the notes (or most of them) were in place for visiting conductors. The likes of Tippett, Bliss, Previn and Heltay would just add their own interpretative touches in a single rehearsal. Eric also had to replace 30 of the 110 players every September as kids left school. This wasn't a youth orchestra, it was a schools orchestra. Eric couldn't even draw on the City of Leicester for players - this was a shire orchestra. The City had its own council, education department and youth orchestra. Most of us were from Loughborough, Hinckley, Wigston, Melton Mowbray and Ashby de la Zouch. I really don't know how he reached such a standard. Here we are in 2012 - last month the council made all the peripatetic music teachers in Leicestershire redundant and sold off the home base of the LSSO. The orchestra won't survive and if it does the standard will plummet. The peak of the mid 80s (Yes, it improved even further from what you hear on the HB LPs) seems light years away. I'm thankful that Eric and Michael Tippett were around to change my life. All very sad :-[
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 09, 2012, 07:49:22 AM
Further to the last few emails, I've produced a pdf file containing all my LSSO Brian press articles. reviews, LP cover scans etc. The pdf can be downloaded from here if anyone is interested. Thanks to Colin aka Dundonnell for giving me the idea.
http://www.4shared.com/office/OlmSSfeg/Havergal_Brian_Information.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on May 09, 2012, 09:05:25 AM
Taking over the Halle from Barbirolli was always going to be a poisoned chalice given the latter's reputation. As you say, the Halle does seem to have gone downhill until their recent revival under Mark Elder. Loughran never got the sort of recording opportunities he might have expected and his career just seems to have gone at best sideways-appointments in Bamberg and Aarhus.

Pinkett must have been both a superb organiser and motivator. What a shame he seems to have died relatively early and what a tragedy that the orchestra is now not better supported :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 10, 2012, 06:36:14 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 08, 2012, 04:59:59 PM
Setting aside the issue of the cd presentation for the time being, you asked, John, what I thought of the cds themselves.

I listened to both while driving to and from Edinburgh this evening. I found the experience of listening to the music again actually rather moving. The performance by the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra, particularly of Symphonies Nos. 10 and 21, is quite simply staggering. Brian is difficult enough for any orchestra to tackle but for an orchestra of school kids ???  Wow :) The commitment, the energy, the enthusiasm, the attack....I would not have known that I was not listening to a professional orchestra. The LSSO at that time must have been one of the finest school orchestras in the world. The brass, especially, are absolutely magnificent. The very ending of No.21 with that thunderous orchestral fortissimo, followed by the hammering timpani is mind-blowing.

I cannot adequately express my delight and my unqualified admiration for the teenagers involved. It just goes to show how youthful enthusiasm and dedication can sometimes prove more satisfying than the more obviously expected professionalism of an adult orchestra.

I still struggle a bit to come to terms with the terse brevity of No.22 but Psalm 23 is so much better than in the Bostock recording for Classico. Nor should one forget the conducting of Loughran, Pinkett and Heltay. That must have been when Loughran was at his peak. What ever happened to that man's later career ??? :(

Huge thumbs up ;D ;D ;D
I just dug this out. This is the orchestra at its highest peak of all time in 1984, playing in the Sofiensalle in Vienna. This was a competition and they were crowned the best youth orchestra in Europe. The class of 1972 were nowhere near this. Intonation is better, phrasing is more professional and the strings have come on leaps and bounds. To cap it all, this isn't bang crash music. It's Haydn. Not something you should ever normally give to kids because it's so exposed and every note tells but this is splendid. Brian and Tippett are a piece of cake compared to the level required to play this:
http://www.4shared.com/mp3/hsJgnNyE/LSSO_Haydn_104.html

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 10, 2012, 06:42:35 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 10, 2012, 06:36:14 AM
I just dug this out. This is the orchestra at its highest peak of all time in 1984, playing in the Sofiensalle in Vienna. This was a competition and they were crowned the best youth orchestra in Europe. The class of 1972 were nowhere near this. Intonation is better, phrasing is more professional and the strings have come on leaps and bounds. To cap it all, this isn't bang crash music. It's Haydn. Not something you should ever normally give to kids because it's so exposed and every note tells but this is splendid. Brian and Tippett are a piece of cake compared to the level required to play this:
http://www.4shared.com/mp3/hsJgnNyE/LSSO_Haydn_104.html

What a great way to "merge" the two most popular composers (by post count) in the Composer board  8) Haydnistas and Brianites rule!  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on May 10, 2012, 07:00:56 AM
Over 200 Pages later and they're STILL talking about that one recording!!

:o :o :o
:o :o :o
:o :o :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 10, 2012, 07:39:50 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on May 10, 2012, 07:00:56 AM
Over 200 Pages later and they're STILL talking about that one recording!!

:o :o :o
:o :o :o
:o :o :o
What's wrong with that? There are loads of recordings mentioned on here not just this one. Have you heard any of 'em? Any positive input about any of 'em?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2012, 08:11:04 AM
The disturbingly vast breadth of range & music & subject matter discussed on this thread is one of the things I like about it!  At times,whole reams of posts go by,without even a mention of a certain composer of an extremely large symphony & thirty one others! :o ;D

By the way snyprrr,I think I'm going to have another dose of Henry Cowell,soon!

Finally,reading about Beecham & listening to some of his recordings,I noticed that John is in good company in his dislike of Bruckner. Beecham describing him as a 'hobble-de-hoy','with no style at all'. I hope I got that Beecham quote right,because as Dundonnell will know,I'm no good at them! :(

My ASV cd of Khatchaturian is currently hovering next to a boxfull destined for the charity shop. Shall I put it in,so Khatchaturian's music can make some money for a good cause?!!! Vote Now!!!!

Back to Brian! ;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 10, 2012, 08:41:56 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 10, 2012, 08:11:04 AM
The disturbingly vast breadth of range & music & subject matter discussed on this thread is one of the things I like about it!  At times,whole reams of posts go by,without even a mention of a certain composer of an extremely large symphony & thirty one others! :o ;D

By the way snyprrr,I think I'm going to have another dose of Henry Cowell,soon!

Finally,reading about Beecham & listening to some of his recordings,I noticed that John is in good company in his dislike of Bruckner. Beecham describing him as a 'hobble-de-hoy','with no style at all'. I hope I got that Beecham quote right,because as Dundonnell will know,I'm no good at them! :(

My ASV cd of Khatchaturian is currently hovering next to a boxfull destined for the charity shop. Shall I put it in,so Khatchaturian's music can make some money for a good cause?!!! Vote Now!!!!

Back to Brian! ;D
Poor old charity shop. It's not in the least bit charitable lumbering them with Kahachaturian. I have nothing to say about Bruckner but Beecham was very astute wasn't he?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2012, 11:28:41 AM
Beecham had some eccentric views about composers,but,in a way,much as I love Bach & Beethoven (for example) it is quite refreshing.in a funny kind of way, to hear someone of his significance making disparaging remarks about the aknowledged greats,especially when it's done in such an amusing way. What a difference to some of the witless wonders of today.I'm not sure whether he would have liked Havergal Brian (anyone know?),but even if he didn't I'm sure his 'put down' would have been genuinely funny!
  Which reminds me of two things. In my current passion for later Beecham,I have just bought a s/h copy of Beecham's 50's recordings of Delius's Eventyr,Over the hills & faraway,North Country Sketches & Koanga (closing scene) on Sony,amongst others!
  Secondly,back to Brian! ;D After pre-ordering the new Mark Stone cd of Brian's songs from HMV,I cancelled my order,after finding it cheaper on Amazon. When you cancel,HMV ask you (optional) why you cancelled. I 'checked' the drop down box saying I had 'found it cheaper. When I looked at HMV again they had lowered their price,so now my pre-order is back with HMV! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on May 10, 2012, 05:03:00 PM
Beecham was an amazingly gifted and inspirational conductor of those composers he liked. He could make a second-rate composer sound great. And yes, he was a funny man. But he was also an incredibly cruel man with a vicious wit which could be used and frequently was to disparage others mercilessly.

He conducted a huge amount of British music in the decade prior to 1914, including Brian, and of course, notoriously, lost "Hero and Leader" in 1908. I suspect that, as with other composers, Beecham had lost interest after 1918.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 11, 2012, 12:14:02 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 10, 2012, 11:28:41 AM
Beecham had some eccentric views about composers,but,in a way,much as I love Bach & Beethoven (for example) it is quite refreshing.in a funny kind of way, to hear someone of his significance making disparaging remarks about the aknowledged greats,especially when it's done in such an amusing way. What a difference to some of the witless wonders of today.I'm not sure whether he would have liked Havergal Brian (anyone know?),but even if he didn't I'm sure his 'put down' would have been genuinely funny!
  Which reminds me of two things. In my current passion for later Beecham,I have just bought a s/h copy of Beecham's 50's recordings of Delius's Eventyr,Over the hills & faraway,North Country Sketches & Koanga (closing scene) on Sony,amongst others!
  Secondly,back to Brian! ;D After pre-ordering the new Mark Stone cd of Brian's songs from HMV,I cancelled my order,after finding it cheaper on Amazon. When you cancel,HMV ask you (optional) why you cancelled. I 'checked' the drop down box saying I had 'found it cheaper. When I looked at HMV again they had lowered their price,so now my pre-order is back with HMV! :)
This is a great CD. Over the Hills is just as good as you could ever imagine. I love this piece. I prefer this version to the later EMI. Wonderful transfer by Sony and the 1950 recording is superb - much better than some modern stereo/digital offerings. It's perfectly balanced and you can hear everything. It's obviously limited in dynamic range but then again, how many digital recordings are impossible to play back comfortably in the home? Getting the right volume setting is nigh on impossible sometimes. Either the quiet passages are inaudible or the loud sections are overwhelming. When I listen to this Delius CD (it's on now) I wonder how far recording technology has really come in the last 62 years.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 11, 2012, 04:55:21 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 10, 2012, 11:28:41 AM
Beecham had some eccentric views about composers,but,in a way,much as I love Bach & Beethoven (for example) it is quite refreshing.in a funny kind of way, to hear someone of his significance making disparaging remarks about the aknowledged greats,especially when it's done in such an amusing way. What a difference to some of the witless wonders of today.I'm not sure whether he would have liked Havergal Brian (anyone know?),but even if he didn't I'm sure his 'put down' would have been genuinely funny!
  Which reminds me of two things. In my current passion for later Beecham,I have just bought a s/h copy of Beecham's 50's recordings of Delius's Eventyr,Over the hills & faraway,North Country Sketches & Koanga (closing scene) on Sony,amongst others!
  Secondly,back to Brian! ;D After pre-ordering the new Mark Stone cd of Brian's songs from HMV,I cancelled my order,after finding it cheaper on Amazon. When you cancel,HMV ask you (optional) why you cancelled. I 'checked' the drop down box saying I had 'found it cheaper. When I looked at HMV again they had lowered their price,so now my pre-order is back with HMV! :)
I have it on good authority that he adored the 4th symphony and planned to record it :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 15, 2012, 02:36:59 PM
Just in case any 'Brianite',or anyone else for that matter,doesn't know;there are detailed & quite lengthy reviews of the Toccata Brian Orchestral Works Vol 2 (music from his opera's!),on Musicweb,now!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 15, 2012, 02:40:18 PM
Thanks, cilgwyn!


(I am very busy and there isn't much to report, Brian-wise. Hence the radio silence...)


Link to MusicWeb:


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/May12/Brian_Operas_TOCC0113.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/May12/Brian_Operas_TOCC0113.htm)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 15, 2012, 02:57:25 PM
I like the reviews! Especially the one by Nick Barnard.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 15, 2012, 02:58:57 PM
Okay,Johan,and it's a bit late,anyway! I haven't really had time to read it all yet,anyway....just report it!
  But I feel I have to respond to John's last post,even if he isn't around,to reply! I had to laugh! ;D It's nice to know that 'Das Siegeslied' had an admirer in Beecham! ;D Mind you,'Das Siegeslied' would have probably been a bit of a doddle after his encounters with the 'Battleship Ethel Smyth'! :o (wish he had mind!)

The Mark Stone Brian cd should be due through my letter box,before long :)....but I'll leave you in peace,now!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 15, 2012, 03:03:04 PM
Oh, I don't mind you barging in electronically when the news is as good as this (two new reviews!)


Re Beecham - I remember his dislike of Bach, 'all that counterpoint, and what is worse - Protestant counterpoint'! (from memory)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 15, 2012, 03:30:20 PM
 ;D I love Bach,but Beecham's 'criticism' ;D was witty! Hurwitz,take note! (He won't!).The fantasy of a Beecham Gothic! 8)
  Anyway,Beecham aside.Apologies for the last post. You may have gathered by now,that I'm not the worlds fastest typist :(! I have now printed out the Musicweb review.It used a few sheets,so it must be a 'good one'!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 15, 2012, 03:34:22 PM
Oh yes, you'll like them.


By the way - end of the month Brabbins will be recording Symphony No. 13, English Suite No. 4 and the Violin Concerto. I really can't wait to hear the result!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 15, 2012, 04:08:36 PM
Phew! There really is allot of detail in these reviews! I'm going to just HAVE to get the cd out again & listen again,with the review in hand! All sorts of references & stuff here,even Liadov,gets a mention! A fine composer. If only he hadn't been so famously 'indolent'! And why not? In their own different ways,'Baba Yaga' & Brian's 'Night Ride' are both marvels of orchestration & concision! Goldschmidt's Beatrice Cenci,I don't know,unfortunately,perhaps? Schierbeck?!! Webster,the neglected (so far!) van Dieren (wonder when the small labels will get to him?),Hadley,Tcherepnin,Ginastera's 'Beatrix Cenci'? I don't know that one! All sorts of references.(Have been listening to some Mozart this week & I must confess I didn't know Leopold Hager was a 'Mozart specialist'!!!) I love these kind of reviews! A mention for KlassicHaus!
And it's late. So I'll have to leave it for now! :(

NB: Thanks for the recording update!

Nos da!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 15, 2012, 04:13:23 PM
Nos da to you, too!  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 16, 2012, 04:04:40 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on May 10, 2012, 05:03:00 PM
Beecham was an amazingly gifted and inspirational conductor of those composers he liked. He could make a second-rate composer sound great. And yes, he was a funny man. But he was also an incredibly cruel man with a vicious wit which could be used and frequently was to disparage others mercilessly.

He conducted a huge amount of British music in the decade prior to 1914, including Brian, and of course, notoriously, lost "Hero and Leader" in 1908. I suspect that, as with other composers, Beecham had lost interest after 1918.
Oh dear,I just realised I missed Dundonnell's post. Aplogies for this. Must remember to scroll up,as well! ::)
  He lost 'Hero & Leander',did he? Right,I've got to hate him,now! >:D ;D As to his rapier wit. I can well imagine. Not so funny when you're on the wrong side of it.

On the positive side,I just received a s/h Sony cd of his 50's recordings of Delius's Over the hills & faraway (etc). Marvellous. John was right & who cares if it's not in stereo. With music making as good as this,you don't notice after a while. Which brings me to Johns point about the quality of some modern,supposedly,state of the art recordings. The detail & clarity in these recordings could put allot of present day recording engineers & their producers to shame. When Brian's third eventually gets a new recording,I hope to goodness it's as good as this. I was putting some Villa Lobos aside,to take down to the charity shop,yesterday & the jungle like profusion of detail in Brian's third sprung to mind. I can just imagine one of those boomy,resonant productions they do these days,obscuring all the detail. At moments like this,I'm actually glad Chandos aren't Brianites.A job for Dutton,I think!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 16, 2012, 04:36:20 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 15, 2012, 04:08:36 PM
Phew! There really is allot of detail in these reviews! I'm going to just HAVE to get the cd out again & listen again,with the review in hand! All sorts of references & stuff here,even Liadov,gets a mention! A fine composer. If only he hadn't been so famously 'indolent'! And why not? In their own different ways,'Baba Yaga' & Brian's 'Night Ride' are both marvels of orchestration & concision! Goldschmidt's Beatrice Cenci,I don't know,unfortunately,perhaps? Schierbeck?!! Webster,the neglected (so far!) van Dieren (wonder when the small labels will get to him?),Hadley,Tcherepnin,Ginastera's 'Beatrix Cenci'? I don't know that one! All sorts of references.(Have been listening to some Mozart this week & I must confess I didn't know Leopold Hager was a 'Mozart specialist'!!!) I love these kind of reviews! A mention for KlassicHaus! And it's late. So I'll have to leave it for now! :(

NB: Thanks for the recording update!

Nos da!
Where do I find this?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 16, 2012, 04:36:43 AM
"At moments like this...!" I hasten to add!!! If Chandos announced plans to record more Brian,I'd be as pleased as anyone else,here. Nothing wrong with Chandos. Their Scott cds were superb,they're less favoured,supposedly 'boomy' & 'resonant' Bryden Thomson Bax,my favourite cycle. I'm just thinking of all the detail in a score like Brian's third. It's a marvellous,eccentric creation,which just happens to need all the help it can get. I take time getting to know a piece of music,but some of these critics come to a piece of music,with pre-conceived opinions & they just bung the cd on,make a few notes & put another one on.
 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2012, 04:39:39 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on Today at 14:36:20 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg629762#msg629762)
Where do I find this?



I posted the link. But here it is again:


>http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/May12/Brian_Operas_TOCC0113.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/May12/Brian_Operas_TOCC0113.htm)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 16, 2012, 04:44:15 AM
Thanks,Johan! ::) :)
Love those links,it's like warp drive.
Which makes me a tortoise! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 16, 2012, 04:56:36 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2012, 04:39:39 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on Today at 14:36:20 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg629762#msg629762)
Where do I find this?



I posted the link. But here it is again:


>http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/May12/Brian_Operas_TOCC0113.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/May12/Brian_Operas_TOCC0113.htm)

But where is the reference to Klassic Haus mentioned in an earlier post?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2012, 04:57:52 AM
The style has more in parallel with his own Fifth Orchestral Suite (the LSSO CBS LP recording now obtainable from KlassicHaus) than with his productions of the 1940s and 1950s.

In Rob Barnett's review.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 16, 2012, 05:03:53 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2012, 04:57:52 AM
The style has more in parallel with his own Fifth Orchestral Suite (the LSSO CBS LP recording now obtainable from KlassicHaus) than with his productions of the 1940s and 1950s.

In Rob Barnett's review.
Thanks Johan. I'm especially thick today ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2012, 05:11:08 AM
And I'm especially forgiving.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 16, 2012, 09:18:21 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2012, 05:11:08 AM
And I'm especially forgiving.  ;D
Are you equally thick though? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2012, 09:29:55 AM
Wha?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 17, 2012, 07:47:09 AM
I just got an email from HMV,informing me that my £9.00,post free, 'Complete songs of Havergal Brian Vol 1,is on the way.Or as they put it," it's on the way!" It would have been nice,I suppose, to have bought it from 'Stone Records',but what with the credit crunch,all those Beecham cds & Schulhoff downloads,I paid for recently,and more :o & some controversy here,over his interpretations. Anyway,I'll soon find out for myself,won't I?!!! :o ;D I grew up with Rayner-Cooks interpretations,so I await this cd with SOME trepidation,to be quite honest!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 17, 2012, 07:57:04 AM
Don't be too scared, cilgwyn. Opinion is divided. John Grimshaw is extremely pleased and thinks that Mark Stone's voice is 'ideal', whereas I am more critical. Still, whatever the 'verdict of history', Mark Stone's recordings are important. The more singers take up this unknown repertoire, the better.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 17, 2012, 11:11:10 AM
Mark Stone's recordings have received allot of praise. It will be VERY interesting to see the Musicweb & IRR reviews. Andrew Clements & Hurwitz's efforts,less so! ;D There's something about the human voice. I have heard fine performances of opera's & other musical works & it doesn't matter how good a performance is,if I don't like the singer,or singers,I won't listen to it much! Allot of current singers,particularly. They just seem to lack the individuality & charisma of the best singers of the past. Also,the tendency,on my part at least,to feel an attraction towards the first performance I heard,of a given work;especially when it's one I heard as a youth!
With respect to Brian Rayner- Cook,I have the additional 'problem' that he is so closely identified with these songs (for obvious reasons). It's almost as if he has made them his own. And,in a way,he has,hasn't he? Although,I don't think it's a Decca-Britten-Pears kind of problem. No one's been scared of trying. They just haven't tried! :(
I don't doubt that I will enjoy hearing another interpretation. I do,however,have a feeling that Rayner-Cook's recordings will be the ones that remain closest to my heart.
  By the way,that DOES sound a bit sentimental,but I can't think of a better way of putting it,at the moment! :-[

Either way,unless the postman puts it through the wrong door :o I'm going to find out soon!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 17, 2012, 11:26:41 AM
Well, the jury is out on Mark Stone, as we haven't heard Vol. 2. But at this moment Rayner-Cook still reigns supreme for me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 18, 2012, 05:17:49 AM
We'll see. No sign of Vol 1 on the doormat (lino!),today! Only,Beecham's stereo recording of Berlioz's 'Symphonie Fantastique',so that'll have to do,for now! :)
It'll be coming from Jersey (or,Guernsey?) though,since it's hmv.So,it's a bit too early,yet!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 19, 2012, 05:35:11 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 18, 2012, 05:17:49 AM
We'll see. No sign of Vol 1 on the doormat (lino!),today! Only,Beecham's stereo recording of Berlioz's 'Symphonie Fantastique',so that'll have to do,for now! :)
It'll be coming from Jersey (or,Guernsey?) though,since it's hmv.So,it's a bit too early,yet!
One of the great performances. You will love it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 19, 2012, 06:07:16 AM
Wonderful,indeed! There'll always be someone who hasn't heard it! :) This is emi's latest 'remastered' edition. I'm on a bit of a Beecham fest,at the moment.(His Beethoven,at the moment) Which leads me to wonder if Brian knew this recording,or it's mono predecessor? Surely? He admired Berlioz. He must have had a record player.Although,some people didn't (my dad! Not even a cassette or cd player. He prefers books!). It seems a shame that we know the contents of Adolf Hitler's record collection :o,but not Havergal Brian's! I do know he's supposed to have liked the Beatles!!! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 19, 2012, 07:47:36 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 19, 2012, 06:07:16 AM
Wonderful,indeed! There'll always be someone who hasn't heard it! :) This is emi's latest 'remastered' edition. I'm on a bit of a Beecham fest,at the moment.(His Beethoven,at the moment) Which leads me to wonder if Brian knew this recording,or it's mono predecessor? Surely? He admired Berlioz. He must have had a record player.Although,some people didn't (my dad! Not even a cassette or cd player. He prefers books!). It seems a shame that we know the contents of Adolf Hitler's record collection :o,but not Havergal Brian's! I do know he's supposed to have liked the Beatles!!! :)
Hitler hated the Beatles
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 19, 2012, 08:25:41 AM
Oh no,we've got something in common! :o ;D
This reminds me of some bloke in the old 'greasy spoon' working mans type cafe,I used to go to (long gone,sadly!) who used to swear he had 78's of the Beatles.We used to laugh at him,behind his back!
However,according to a google search. Some Beatles 78's WERE released in India,due to the poverty & subsequent scarcity of up to date equipment there.

But then again,I still use D90 cassettes & watch dvds on a CRT tv!!!! :(
:)

Hopefully,that Mark Stone cd will arrive on Monday!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 19, 2012, 08:29:42 AM
I'll get my North Korean shellacs of the LSSO out,later! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 19, 2012, 02:48:05 PM
The HB thread may be prone to some off-topic rambling, but it remains one of GMG's funniest.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 20, 2012, 03:14:33 AM
Hitler was a huge fan of Freddie and the Dreamers. Himmler was more of a Clodagh Rodgers man, especially her epic Jack in the Box.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 20, 2012, 05:23:26 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 19, 2012, 02:48:05 PM
The HB thread may be prone to some off-topic rambling, but it remains one of GMG's funniest.
Johan, in what way, exactly, can this be described as "off-topic rambling"? I don't know what on earth you could possibly mean. It's hugely insulting to Hitler and Clodagh Rodgers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 20, 2012, 06:59:17 AM
 ???


I'm so sorry.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on May 20, 2012, 08:25:15 AM
Cilgwyn,

Where did you get that nugget about Brian supposedly liking the Beatles? (I have a reason for asking...)

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 20, 2012, 08:30:05 AM
I remember reading it, too, somewhere (Eastaugh, MacDonald, Newsletter?!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 20, 2012, 08:35:36 AM
I'm afraid I don't remember. I'm sure I DID see it somewhere. Something about HB keeping up with the times. You know,liking Varese & stuff like that? I wasn't inferring that he had a big collection,or actually had Lps of the 'White Album' or 'Sgt Pepper'! Just liked what he'd heard (on the radio,perhaps?).

He missed punk,by a few years! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on May 21, 2012, 12:45:26 AM
I have it on good authority that it was Eastaugh, p316: "He had long considered The Beatles talented...". It's been many years since I read the Eastaugh and hadn't remembered that statement, but what made a link for me was that when I was reviewing some of the recent Brian discs (particularly the Toccata volume 1) a good while back, it occurred to me then that there was a potential Beatles connection (although not a musical one that I can find) with Ave atque vale, Brian's penultimate composition from 1968. This was completed in May 1968, just a few months after the Beatles had been at the top of the charts over New Year 1968 with Hello Goodbye - surely a modern-day translation of Ave atque vale. A quote from Catullus maybe, and aware of his mortality, stated to be a purely abstract work by the composer himself certainly - but maybe more of a humorous nod at Lennon/McCartney?

Just a thought.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 21, 2012, 01:03:16 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on May 21, 2012, 12:45:26 AM
I have it on good authority that it was Eastaugh, p316: "He had long considered The Beatles talented...". It's been many years since I read the Eastaugh and hadn't remembered that statement, but what made a link for me was that when I was reviewing some of the recent Brian discs (particularly the Toccata volume 1) a good while back, it occurred to me then that there was a potential Beatles connection (although not a musical one that I can find) with Ave atque vale, Brian's penultimate composition from 1968. This was completed in May 1968, just a few months after the Beatles had been at the top of the charts over New Year 1968 with Hello Goodbye - surely a modern-day translation of Ave atque vale. A quote from Catullus maybe, and aware of his mortality, stated to be a purely abstract work by the composer himself certainly - but maybe more of a humorous nod at Lennon/McCartney?

Just a thought.

;)
...........and Eddie the Eagle was a world class ski jumper.... ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on May 21, 2012, 02:35:41 AM
John! I'm shocked. I prefer listening to Lennon/McCartney than Moza..... (ducks rapidly after having prodded a hornet's nest!)

:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2012, 03:38:48 AM
Well,ya never know! ::) ;D ;) Isn't HB one of those characters on the sleeve of Sgt Pepper? ;D In between Mae West & Diana Dors? (Or is it WC Fields?).
I like to think HB might have been partial to The Velvet Underground or even 'The Doors'! But maybe not!!! One things for sure,he wasn't a Rolling Stone man.
Strange to think that might have heard The Grateful Dead',if he'd left his transistor radio on the right channel,long enough!

Incidentally,talking about 'eagles'. The Mark Stone HB songs cd has landed,and my initial response is VERY positive!
Of course it's a bit too early to have really absorbed the contents of this cd (or swat that annoying tiny fly in front of my monitor!),but a couple of observations:

1) I LIKE his voice! :)
2) The accompanying booklet is commendable
3) The purely instrumental tracks are a nice idea.
4) I need more time to assimilate the 'new' songs.
5) The booklet glue reminded me of those old, Melodiya Lp
    (Soviet era) boxed sets,but it's thankfully a good deal fresher!
6) The included music is far too early too include any possible
     allusions to The Beatles,or Mr Mick Jagger! >:D
   

* My typing has gone like Sesame Street! :(



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2012, 03:43:25 AM
I am glad you like the CD, cilgwyn! I am still not convinced, but will listen again tonight. 'Give Stone A Chance'.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2012, 03:55:28 AM
I will be listening again,but my initial response is very positive. In between,I need to check out a s/h cd of Gardiner's period instrument performance of Berlioz's 'Symphonie Fantastique',just to make sure it's okay! I wonder if I'll like that?!!!! :o ::)
I have to say,I like the way you get a bit of background on each song. Although,I haven't had time to read these properly yet,though. The booklet notes also bring up the dark side of Brian :o. The drinking,his eye for the ladies  and the temper tantrums! I was also a bit suprised & a little doubtful about the incorporation of purely instrumental music,but having actually listened to the whole cd now,albeit casually,on headphones,I think these add variety to the content. In fact,I think they work very well,indeed.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2012, 03:58:57 AM
I think the instrumental contributions are very good. The 'Legend' gets its best and most impassioned performance so far, I think.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2012, 04:02:51 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 21, 2012, 03:55:28 AMThe booklet notes also bring up the dark side of Brian :o. The drinking...

"A musician who has not sung drunkenly at midnight is not worthy of the profession."

From this thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20529.msg630958.html#msg630958)   8)


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2012, 04:07:26 AM
 ;D


(It's clear this ascetic's similarities with Brian are purely artistic... !)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2012, 04:29:59 AM
Dark side of the Brian! Or,to quote,'Some like it hot'. "Nobody's perfect!" (Gombert,or, Gesualdo,he's not!) Like Berlioz,he was consumed by the creative fires.You've got to be stormy & temperamental,to compose music like the 'Gothic'. At least,for a while! ;D
Currently listening to that Gardiner Berlioz cd. Phew! Very interesting,yes! An increase in clarity,yes! But I'm not sure an innovator & fan of big orchestral sounds,like Berlioz,would have been too crazy about this?
Not saying I don't like it,mind. Those clean textures are often very bracing,but.............

Haven't got to the all important 'scary bits' yet,though!
   
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 21, 2012, 04:33:12 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on May 21, 2012, 02:35:41 AM
John! I'm shocked. I prefer listening to Lennon/McCartney than Moza..... (ducks rapidly after having prodded a hornet's nest!)

:D
How very dare you. They wrote decent enough songs but McCartney is always out of tune and as for Ringo on drums. Give me strength. He's so bad he probably wasn't even the best drummer in the Beatles.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2012, 04:43:45 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 21, 2012, 04:33:12 AM
How very dare you. They wrote decent enough songs but McCartney is always out of tune....

That's part of his charm  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2012, 05:25:31 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on May 21, 2012, 02:35:41 AM
John! I'm shocked. I prefer listening to Lennon/McCartney than Moza..... (ducks rapidly after having prodded a hornet's nest!)

No, no, you do not anger us in the least . . . only invoke the very deepest of our pity ; )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2012, 05:47:50 AM
This is a great Beatles thread! I'm starting to wish I'd had 'Rubber Soul' through the letterbox,this morning,not that pesky Havergal Brian cd! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2012, 06:00:15 AM
On a more serious note. I was just thinking that my fantasy interpreter for a cd of Brian songs (Rayner-Cook,aside) would be Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau,one of my favourite singers. And just now,I read that he has passed away!

Back to the Beatles! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2012, 06:11:57 AM
Of course everyone knew,except me!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2012, 06:18:44 AM
The whole musical world has been in mourning since Friday...

(Apart from the Stone CD, I think I'll give 'Rubbra Soul' a spin)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2012, 06:28:39 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 21, 2012, 06:11:57 AM
Of course everyone knew,except me!

You need to get out more. There's a whole GMG world beyond the Brian thread  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2012, 06:32:31 AM
Sgt Rock:Is there,really? ;D

Interesting that I know one of the Bee Gee's has died,but not Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. Tut! Tut! :(

Dundonnell is a bit of a fan of Rubbra Soul,isn't he?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2012, 06:51:36 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 21, 2012, 06:32:31 AM
Interesting that I know one of the Bee Gee's has died,but not Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. Tut! Tut! :(

Dude, there are places where it just won't do to admit that.

I don't suppose that the Brian thread is one of them . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2012, 08:32:13 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2012, 06:51:36 AM
Dude, there are places where it just won't do to admit that.

I don't suppose that the Brian thread is one of them . . . .

I'll delete the post,quietly,when everyone is in bed! I never had any Bee Gees records,though.Honestly! With due respect to Bee Gee admirers. I remember upsetting a Des 'O Connor fan,once,at work.I should have known he had one! :((Eric Morecambe had a lot to answer for!)

Another listen to that Mark Stone cd,later on.I wonder whether I will like it more,the second time around,or whether doubts will take root and fester like unwashed verrucas?!!! :o

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 21, 2012, 10:33:56 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 21, 2012, 08:32:13 AM
I'll delete the post,quietly,when everyone is in bed! I never had any Bee Gees records,though.Honestly! With due respect to Bee Gee admirers. I remember upsetting a Des 'O Connor fan,once,at work.I should have known he had one! :((Eric Morecambe had a lot to answer for!)

Another listen to that Mark Stone cd,later on.I wonder whether I will like it more,the second time around,or whether doubts will take root and fester like unwashed verrucas?!!! :o
Des O'Connor sings Brian. That's a real opportunity for Hyperion.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2012, 10:48:30 AM
Nice to see that the Havergal Brian thread is . . . stayin' alive . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2012, 11:59:26 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 21, 2012, 10:33:56 AM
Des O'Connor sings Brian. That's a real opportunity for Hyperion.
In his own,inimitable fashion!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2012, 12:34:25 PM
After the more casual 'run through',earlier in the day,I am now reading all the bookles notes & giving the Mark Stone interpretations a more critical reappraisal.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2012, 01:37:46 PM
Just listened to a few songs on the Mark Stone CD again. My impression was more favourable. His voice is darker and rougher than Cook's, and this does suit Brian (but not always). There is an audible strain in a song like 'Care-charmer Sleep'. I really can't get used to the way he sings 'son of the sable Night, brother to Death', where he sounds like a crooner. Cook is much cleaner here and he hits the notes effortlessly, he doesn't glide into them.


But I'll keep on listening. And bring on Vol. 2!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on May 21, 2012, 02:02:10 PM
 :o

Des O'Connor sings Brian ... all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order ...

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2012, 03:14:37 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2012, 01:37:46 PM
Just listened to a few songs on the Mark Stone CD again. My impression was more favourable. His voice is darker and rougher than Cook's, and this does suit Brian (but not always). There is an audible strain in a song like 'Care-charmer Sleep'. I really can't get used to the way he sings 'son of the sable Night, brother to Death', where he sounds like a crooner. Cook is much cleaner here and he hits the notes effortlessly, he doesn't glide into them.


But I'll keep on listening. And bring on Vol. 2!
Yes,the first time around I was,listening casually,while doing things,with those Sennheiser cordless headphones,I keep on about! ::) ;D This time,I must say,I DID notice the 'straining' you refer to. This is not something I usually expect from a professional singer. Having said that,it's not so bad that it spoils my listening,and it is,thankfully,not apparent on every song. But I do fear that,the more I listen,the more apparent this 'problem' will become! In fact,during the 'Soul of Steel' his voice almost cracks,as if he is really struggling with the demands Brian makes.On,one or two,of the 'new' (to LP or cd)this is even more of an issue. Furthermore,going back to the 'Soul of Steel',there are points where he is so 'loud' he approaches the point of,what I might,unkindly,refer to as 'bawling'!
  As to the 'crooning' you refer to. Yes,I know what you mean. I seemed to notice a bit of this on one or other of the Shakespeare songs.
As you say,by comparison,Rayner Cook singing sounds effortless. He also,has a purity & sweetness of tone (for want of a better word) which I DO miss & is,unfortunately,lacking in some of the tracks here.
  Nevertheless,I am enjoying this cd.Unlike some singers,I can think of,some of them highly rated,I can't say I dislike his singing. I can think of some cds I can't listen to,because one of the singers doesn't appeal to me.It doesn't matter how good the other performers are.Whatever issues I have with Mark Stones 'handling' of these songs,there is nothing that makes me feel I'm going to have to switch off,or wish that he'd left the songs alone. He's certainly not in the Naxos category! ;D
  Finally,regarding the purely instrumental tracks. I like this idea,myself. It provides variety,relief between the 'louder' bits ;D
and the playing sounds good. Also,it IS nice to hear the 'three illuminations' without the narration,which was a allright for one listen,but that's about all. Without this,I find,to my suprise,that they are really quite attractive pieces.

I have enjoyed listening to this cd,though,'niggles' aside. He's not Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau,in his prime,unfortunately ;D,let alone Brian Rayner-Cook (or,Des O'Connor! :o),but he's not THAT bad!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2012, 03:58:04 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2012, 03:58:57 AM
I think the instrumental contributions are very good. The 'Legend' gets its best and most impassioned performance so far, I think.
Definately! This is the first time the piece has really impressed me. I kept thinking,if ONLY he'd written MORE!
Also,like you're comment about his voice being 'darker' and 'rougher'. This works very well in the more sombre,steelier (a bit of a pun here!) songs;but not the lighter ones.

Niggles aside,I REALLY have enjoyed this cd,though! Here's to Volume 2 & I am grateful to Mark Stone.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 22, 2012, 09:35:43 AM
If anyone doesn't already know ;D,you can listen to a recording of the first public performance of Brian's tone poem 'In memoriam',for 36 years, at the Havergal Brian Society website.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 22, 2012, 09:40:15 AM
Well spotted, cilgwyn! I'll check it out!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2012, 09:53:24 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 22, 2012, 09:35:43 AM
. . .  the first public performance of Brian's tone poem 'In memoriam',for 36 years . . . .

I guess there hasn't been much what need remembering in a while . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 23, 2012, 12:50:04 AM
Some good news this morning. I located a copy of the Aries/Holmes Violin Concerto LP on Ebay in the USA. Shipping costs to the UK were ridiculous so Curt Timmons made a bid and he won. Assuming that the LP is in decent condition there will be a Klassic Haus restoration of this wonderful performance sometime in July. I've never heard an Aries LP in my life but I assume that the VC will be a good transfer of the BBC broadcast and that the pressing will be of an acceptable commercial standard. Let's see. I'll keep you all posted. I'm excited :) 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2012, 04:23:48 AM
(http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4996/41ftjyxirslsl500aa300.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2012-05-24
This is the one I had,(not my copy) after,ordering it from a mailing list,sent out by 'Michael G.Thomas',who used to have regular ads,in the back pages of Gramophone Magazine,when it was good! :(
I didn't even know I was buying a pirate;although,when I received it,I remember thinking there was something odd about it. For one thing,the cover artwork & presentation had a wierd 'amateurish' quality about it. And everything about it was just odd! Being young & green,then, ;D,for all I knew,the Lisbon Conservatory Orchestra,could even have existed. Maybe,only a really obscure outfit,I had never heard of,would perform something like this! ;D But,why a 'conservatory' orchestra for such a big work? Maybe,it was just an exceptionally big conservatory!!! :o And then there was the sound quality. There seems to be a general consensus of opinion that the sound quality of Aries Lps was,with the possible exception of their release of the Boult 'Gothic',rather poor. Now,I didn't have hifi,but I had a fairly decent record player,at the time,which cost around a £100 of my pocket money (allot to me,back then!) & I was quite sensitive to poor sound;but,despite a slightly 'boxy' quality,it sounded quite clear to me,and,if memory serves me correctly,preferable to some of the worst Marco Polo cds &,I won't go any further! ;D To be fair to Aries Records,I have heard allot worse! I wouldn't put them with Intaglio,for instance! Their Bantock cd,sounds like the orchestra are playing at the end of a very long tunnel! In fact, as a pirate production,I would go so far as to suggest that,it was probably,quite good!!! :o I mean,it's pirated! What do people expect?!! ;D Also,the constricted acoustic of the Hyperion release,isn't exactly something to write home about! Although again,I've heard FAR worse!
  At the time,I remember being disconcerted & a little disappointed by the piece. Years later,after buying the original Hyperion cassette of their release &,when I finally got a compact disc player,the cd;it became my favourite Brian work! :) ;D
In fact,I love it! In a perfect world,there would be umpteen recordings,to choose from,of this wild,wacky,eccentric,one of a kind, symphony!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 24, 2012, 02:42:51 PM
Cilgwyn, do you still have this? I can feel a restoration coming on............
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 24, 2012, 10:41:23 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 24, 2012, 04:23:48 AM
(http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4996/41ftjyxirslsl500aa300.jpg)
By dinasman (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/dinasman) at 2012-05-24
This is the one I had,(not my copy) after,ordering it from a mailing list,sent out by 'Michael G.Thomas',who used to have regular ads,in the back pages of Gramophone Magazine,when it was good! :(
I didn't even know I was buying a pirate;although,when I received it,I remember thinking there was something odd about it. For one thing,the cover artwork & presentation had a wierd 'amateurish' quality about it. And everything about it was just odd! Being young & green,then, ;D,for all I knew,the Lisbon Conservatory Orchestra,could even have existed. Maybe,only a really obscure outfit,I had never heard of,would perform something like this! ;D But,why a 'conservatory' orchestra for such a big work? Maybe,it was just an exceptionally big conservatory!!! :o And then there was the sound quality. There seems to be a general consensus of opinion that the sound quality of Aries Lps was,with the possible exception of their release of the Boult 'Gothic',rather poor. Now,I didn't have hifi,but I had a fairly decent record player,at the time,which cost around a £100 of my pocket money (allot to me,back then!) & I was quite sensitive to poor sound;but,despite a slightly 'boxy' quality,it sounded quite clear to me,and,if memory serves me correctly,preferable to some of the worst Marco Polo cds &,I won't go any further! ;D To be fair to Aries Records,I have heard allot worse! I wouldn't put them with Intaglio,for instance! Their Bantock cd,sounds like the orchestra are playing at the end of a very long tunnel! In fact, as a pirate production,I would go so far as to suggest that,it was probably,quite good!!! :o I mean,it's pirated! What do people expect?!! ;D Also,the constricted acoustic of the Hyperion release,isn't exactly something to write home about! Although again,I've heard FAR worse!
  At the time,I remember being disconcerted & a little disappointed by the piece. Years later,after buying the original Hyperion cassette of their release &,when I finally got a compact disc player,the cd;it became my favourite Brian work! :) ;D
In fact,I love it! In a perfect world,there would be umpteen recordings,to choose from,of this wild,wacky,eccentric,one of a kind, symphony!
I've got one of those. A waste of time - too hot in the summer and freezing in the winter. I regret not going for a standard two storey extension now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 25, 2012, 04:39:05 AM
Agreed! My grandparents had one & the only living,breathing creatures that used it,were their pet cats. They loved it! My parents have one,but rarely use it. You might as well sit in the greenhouse,which I did try once. But it had no glass,so there didn't seem much point! :(

UPDATE! Oops,sorry,I missed that one,John! And here I was,trying to bump the Brian thread,with some interesting observations about conservatories! ;D
No,unfortunately,not. If I'd known Aries Lps fetched such high prices on ebay,I would have kept it. Unfortunately,it went the way of the toy yellow submarine,which would have been worth even more. Although,unlike the yellow submarine,it didn't get driven,on all fours,at high speed,into the living room wall! :o

At least,I hope not,I was in my late teens! ::)




 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 28, 2012, 08:01:19 PM
Hi all

I've listening to other things in the last few weeks, but by the end of the week intend to start listen to the HB symphonies again, this time in reverse order  :)

(BTW one o thr things I've been listening to is Simon Rattle's recording of Bruckner's Ninth with a reconstructed finale.  ;D)

cheers
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 29, 2012, 12:40:52 AM

Off topic but two new downloads might interest you. First of all the Hattoff Holst Centenary LP is now fully restored and available. Secondly the first public performance of the Tippett Shires Suite (LSSO/Tippett) coupled to some unusual Ives and Tippett pieces. Here's the link:
http://www.klassichaus.us/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on May 29, 2012, 11:45:45 AM
Hattoff Holst Centenary has a certain ring to it. Thanks John, duly downloaded, will listen later.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 29, 2012, 04:01:55 PM
Sorry John, I must have listened to too much Bruckner and got my brian addled, but I cant find the Holst disk you mentioned on www.klassichaus.us

I love the idea of these restorations, and I'll certainly get the Tippett and couple of others (already bought the Brians).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 29, 2012, 04:14:48 PM
http://www.klassichaus.us/index.php (http://www.klassichaus.us/index.php)


It's called "Holst at St Paul's". You can find it on the page I linked to... When you click on the picture, you get a sample.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 30, 2012, 09:37:17 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 29, 2012, 04:01:55 PM
Sorry John, I must have listened to too much Bruckner and got my brian addled, but I cant find the Holst disk you mentioned on www.klassichaus.us

I love the idea of these restorations, and I'll certainly get the Tippett and couple of others (already bought the Brians).
Your brian addled - very Freudian. When you go to the site, open the vocal/choral tab at the top and you will find the Holst at St Paul's disc at the bottom of the list of titles. In fact - here you go:
http://www.klassichaus.us/Choral-Vocal.php
I'm delighted with the Tippett and very proud of the Shires Suite performance. Electic atmosphere.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 30, 2012, 09:38:58 AM
I must alert Brianites to the fact that there have been uploads of Brian symphonies at the Unsung Composers site of quite exceptional quality. Just as Colin (Dundonnell) did a few months ago, a member has dusted off his reel-to-reels. He has so far made available recordings of symphonies 2 (Mackerras), 3 (Pope), 4 (Poole) and 7 (Newstone). It is as if all the varnish has disappeared, the amount of detail that comes to life is astonishing, especially in those filled-to-bursting early works. Anyone joining UC will have access to these riches...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 30, 2012, 09:58:26 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 30, 2012, 09:38:58 AM
I must alert Brianites to the fact that there have been uploads of Brian symphonies at the Unsung Composers site of quite exceptional quality. Just as Colin (Dundonnell) did a few months ago, a member has dusted off his reel-to-reels. He has so far made available recordings of symphonies 2 (Mackerras), 3 (Pope), 4 (Poole) and 7 (Newstone). It is as if all the varnish has disappeared, the amount of detail that comes to life is astonishing, especially in those filled-to-bursting early works. Anyone joining UC will have access to these riches...
I'll take a listen. Many thanks!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 30, 2012, 10:43:10 AM
Just listened very briefly to this new download of No.3. QUALITY!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 30, 2012, 05:07:21 PM
The Mackerras No.2 Scherzo is one of the most electrifying performances of any piece of music I know, a must listen, and now better quality!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 30, 2012, 09:49:43 PM
I must say the Second has risen in my estimation, the Scherzo included. And the opening of the Fourth impresses me more than it ever did. Is every composer so dependant on a good recording, I wonder. One part of an answer may be - Brian's music is an intense aural experience,  when you hear it live. A recording that captures that excitement, brings the music immediately to life.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 30, 2012, 11:58:35 PM
A couple of weeks ago Curt Timmons at Klassic Haus bought the Aries LP of the Violin Concerto/Symphony No.28 from Ebay. I've just heard a short extract of his initial transfer and I must say it's a great success. I've never heard an Aries LP and had fairly low expectations. I was wrong. It sounds terrific and I will be buying the download when it's available next month. Colin did us all a great service with his cassette transfer and I'm thankful for his efforts - it introduced me to this wonderful performance of the concerto. The Aries transfer promises to be a substantial sonic improvement.   
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2012, 07:58:36 AM
The member at Unsung Composers, Mark, who recently uploaded symphonies 2, 3, 4 and 7 has now added two very interesting recordings - 1) the first (broadcast) performance of 'Das Siegeslied', from 3 July 1967, with the BBC Northern Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Maurice Handford and 2) the first (broadcast) performance of Symphony No. 21, with the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Sir Edward Downes. The sound of these latest additions isn't as good the earlier ones, but that doesn't matter, they are of huge historic interest.


Many passages go rather disastrously wrong in 'Das Siegeslied', because Handford often seems to be in quite a hurry, so that the choirs can hardly keep up. It is very instructive, though, and it shows you how excellent Poole is. Even in a flawed performance, details stand out you didn't notice before. As for No. 21, the LSO play this very well, I think. Downes follows the score quite faithfully, although he completely forgets the Allargando at the end of the third movement. The way he shapes the final pages of the work as a whole are, however, masterly, and those chords ending the work are much more imposing than in the LSSO performance. But, again, the LSSO did a more than creditable job in 1972, and the performances are evenly-matched.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 31, 2012, 08:10:47 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2012, 07:58:36 AM
The member at Unsung Composers, Mark, who recently uploaded symphonies 2, 3, 4 and 7 has now added two very interesting recordings - 1) the first (broadcast) performance of 'Das Siegeslied', from 3 July 1967, with the BBC Northern Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Maurice Handford and 2) the first (broadcast) performance of Symphony No. 21, with the London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Sir Edward Downes. The sound of these latest additions isn't as good the earlier ones, but that doesn't matter, they are of huge historic interest.


Many passages go rather disastrously wrong in 'Das Siegeslied', because Handford often seems to be in quite a hurry, so that the choirs can hardly keep up. It is very instructive, though, and it shows you how excellent Poole is. Even in a flawed performance, details stand out you didn't notice before. As for No. 21, the LSO play this very well, I think. Downes follows the score quite faithfully, although he completely forgets the Allargando at the end of the third movement. The way he shapes the final pages of the work as a whole are, however, masterly, and those chords ending the work are much more imposing than in the LSSO performance. But, again, the LSSO did a more than creditable job in 1972, and the performances are evenly-matched.
I agree but I'm amazed to hear the timps being so horribly sharp though. Very peculiar.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2012, 08:19:49 AM
You didn't see my findings at UC, I think (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1169.msg35191.html#msg35191 (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1169.msg35191.html#msg35191)


1st movement: between a major second and a minor third too sharp
2nd movement: minor second too sharp
3rd movement: idem
4th movement: major second too sharp


It's a fault of the recording. Mark will address this next week. He has a score (like me).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 31, 2012, 08:34:13 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2012, 08:19:49 AM
You didn't see my findings at UC, I think (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1169.msg35191.html#msg35191 (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1169.msg35191.html#msg35191)


1st movement: between a major second and a minor third too sharp
2nd movement: minor second too sharp
3rd movement: idem
4th movement: major second too sharp


It's a fault of the recording. Mark will address this next week. He has a score (like me).
I will take another proper listen later. Pitch correction is easy to do but it's important to change the pitch AND the overall timings because the inherent fault is the tape speed. The thing is full of wow and flutter (as I mentioned earlier) so I never really listened to it. Will do, though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2012, 08:37:04 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on Today at 18:34:13 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg633635#msg633635)
I will take another proper listen later. Pitch correction is easy to do but it's important to change the pitch AND the overall timings because
the inherent fault is the tape speed. The thing is full of wow and flutter (as I mentioned earlier) so I never really listened to it. Will do, though.



You're right. The Downes performance, by the way, also lacks the opening E flat pizzicato chord....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 31, 2012, 10:14:27 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2012, 08:19:49 AM
You didn't see my findings at UC, I think (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1169.msg35191.html#msg35191 (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1169.msg35191.html#msg35191)


1st movement: between a major second and a minor third too sharp
2nd movement: minor second too sharp
3rd movement: idem
4th movement: major second too sharp


It's a fault of the recording. Mark will address this next week. He has a score (like me).
I only wish it were as straight forward as this. I've just been listening and trying to sort it out. The problem is that the tape speed changes throughout each movement. I corrected the opening of the first movement into E flat and all was well but by the middle of the movement the pitch had dropped and by the end it had dropped still further. The tape is slowing down from beginning to end. If I correct the pitch by using the last few notes as markers the opening is no longer in E flat. Is this from a cassette? I wonder if the uploader can rewind the tape a few times to free it up and then have another go at the transfer. It's not possible to pitch correct this as I did for the upload of the 10th which started in the key of B and three quarters minor and at least had the common decency to be equally inaccurate throughout the full length of the piece. It could be the tired old belt on the cassette player of course. I've got a Nakamichi that's still in great nick. If it comes to it I could try to make a transfer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2012, 10:19:20 AM
Thanks for that, John. Yes, I too got the feeling that the pitch was wobbly during the movements themselves... You should post the same information at the UC site, too. Mark, the uploader, said he would look into it next week. This would be a great help.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 31, 2012, 10:37:17 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2012, 10:19:20 AM
Thanks for that, John. Yes, I too got the feeling that the pitch was wobbly during the movements themselves... You should post the same information at the UC site, too. Mark, the uploader, said he would look into it next week. This would be a great help.
I just referred to it on the UC site literally 1 minute ago so I hope Mark will see this comment I made on the HB forum. I assume he looks at both.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on May 31, 2012, 10:48:42 AM
Johan,

The performance did indeed have the pizz opening; this recording misses it - and also the first bass clarinet note that follows. Yes, the LSO does play it all well; Brian and Robert Simpson had been at the BBC recording in Maida Vale, following which Brian declared it to be the best day of his life. At the end of the second movement, Brian had said to Simpson that 'this is lovely orchestral playing', to which Simpson had replied 'yes, it's lovely music'. And so it is; this slow movement and the opening movement of the 11th are amongst Brian's most serene.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 31, 2012, 10:56:56 AM
Curt at Klassic Haus has finished the refurb on the Aries Violin Concerto LP. Luckily the pressing was immaculate. I've only heard a sample as of this morning but hopefully the CD will be available in July. Here's an appetiser for you:
http://www.4shared.com/mp3/pJsmqDz-/Aries_fiddle_concerto_sample.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2012, 10:58:37 AM
Thanks, Martyn, for that piece of information about Brian's 'best day of his life'. I had forgotten about it (as you do). That second movement is, indeed, among Brian's serenest, though it has its one wilder moment... Apart from the opening movement of No. 11, the finale of No. 24 is another very peaceful creation, with a great peroration. Any news about the current recording of the new Brian CD for Dutton?!  ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 31, 2012, 11:02:02 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on May 31, 2012, 10:48:42 AM
Johan,

The performance did indeed have the pizz opening; this recording misses it - and also the first bass clarinet note that follows. Yes, the LSO does play it all well; Brian and Robert Simpson had been at the BBC recording in Maida Vale, following which Brian declared it to be the best day of his life. At the end of the second movement, Brian had said to Simpson that 'this is lovely orchestral playing', to which Simpson had replied 'yes, it's lovely music'. And so it is; this slow movement and the opening movement of the 11th are amongst Brian's most serene.
Brian to Simpson, Leicester early 1972: "This is goddam awful playing"
Simpson to Brian: "The music isn't up to much either"
A different slant on things I feel. :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 01, 2012, 01:15:16 AM
I've had a go at pitch correcting the Brian 21/Downes. It's as good as I could get it due to the constant changes of tape speed but it's not a million miles away. The 3rd movement isn't exactly mercurial is it? I prefer Eric's version. According to the HBS website Eric takes 29 mins and Downes 22. This isn't right - Downes clocks in at 30. Anyway make of it what you will:
http://www.4shared.com/folder/PXb_AvAs/Brian_21_Downes_pitch_correcte.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2012, 01:18:58 AM
Many thanks for your heroic efforts, John!


P.S. It says 'the link is not valid'...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 01, 2012, 01:24:43 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2012, 01:18:58 AM
Many thanks for your heroic efforts, John!


P.S. It says 'the link is not valid'...
Strange, it seems to work OK. Just tried it. Maybe you copy and paste it into your browser?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2012, 01:26:45 AM
When I click it, it does that automatically in a new tab. Strange indeed.


It works in Firefox, but not in Opera...


In Opera you can change a setting, so that a site will see your browser as Firefox or Internet Explorer. After I changed ir to Firefox, the link worked...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 01, 2012, 01:31:32 AM
I also put the same post on the UC forum. Let me know what you think. Anyway I'm off in 15 mins. Band contest day. Excellent.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2012, 01:32:20 AM
Thanks, and enjoy yourself!


Later: just listened to the opening movement - as pitch-perfect as is humanly possible, according to these ears...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on June 01, 2012, 07:26:05 AM
John,

Good catch - the Downes is indeed nowhere near 22 minutes; you're the first person in 13 years to spot that. It's fixed now: Pinkett clocks in at a total of 28:56, Downes (including the 'missed' opening pizzicato) at 29:16.

The third movement under Downes is nicely pointed, and faster than it sounds; the movement as a whole is five seconds shorter than the LSSO version, which occasionally sounds as if the pace and bounce that Pinkett has set is just a hair too much for them. Of course, as Johan has pointed out, Downes is faster than the Unicorn version because he fails to observe the allargando at the end of the movement. The slowing-down is important because it does two things; it puts the music back into the world of the second movement, and like the second movement, it here strongly alludes to the opening adagio of the 11th symphony, hence the serenity that I mentioned in a previous post. Pinkett demonstrates real feel here by slowing markedly for the final moments of the third movement.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 01, 2012, 11:38:27 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on June 01, 2012, 07:26:05 AM
John,

Good catch - the Downes is indeed nowhere near 22 minutes; you're the first person in 13 years to spot that. It's fixed now: Pinkett clocks in at a total of 28:56, Downes (including the 'missed' opening pizzicato) at 29:16.

The third movement under Downes is nicely pointed, and faster than it sounds; the movement as a whole is five seconds shorter than the LSSO version, which occasionally sounds as if the pace and bounce that Pinkett has set is just a hair too much for them. Of course, as Johan has pointed out, Downes is faster than the Unicorn version because he fails to observe the allargando at the end of the movement. The slowing-down is important because it does two things; it puts the music back into the world of the second movement, and like the second movement, it here strongly alludes to the opening adagio of the 11th symphony, hence the serenity that I mentioned in a previous post. Pinkett demonstrates real feel here by slowing markedly for the final moments of the third movement.

;)
It's not really the tempo that I don't like. It's the mercurial thing - it doesn't have much zip and bounce. Too smooth, notes too long, rather dull. Despite the superior playing of a different class it doesn't have enough bite. By the way, do I get a prize for spotting the error on the site? A free Bruckner download or something? :D I wonder if Eric heard this Downes recording prior to the Unicorn sessions? It's very similar except for the point you make about the allargando and the passage where he suddenly speeds up (which works for me despite not being in the score and Simpson was happy enough with it).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 03, 2012, 03:02:49 AM
Totally off topic but HB liked Brass Bands. I took this video approaching midnight at our brass band competition in Delph on Friday night. Good weather. Some great playing and 81 bands took part. You will enjoy this I hope:

http://youtu.be/XUB1meM7qPw
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 03, 2012, 03:17:41 AM
Virtuosic playing! Nice to see that a great tradition lives on (and Brian needs it, with his brass-centred writing!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 03, 2012, 03:01:20 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 03, 2012, 03:17:41 AM
Virtuosic playing! Nice to see that a great tradition lives on (and Brian needs it, with his brass-centred writing!)
Most of England's great orchestral brass players come from brass bands - Murphy, Watson, Harvey, Cobb etc etc. The list is endless. We don't have a particularly strong string tradition in the country but our brass and woodwind players are second to none.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 04, 2012, 06:07:44 AM
I just saw the review of the 'Curse of the Gothic Symphony' on Musicweb. An interview with Olga Pringle,Malcolm MacDonald,'dramatic recreations of events from Brian's early life' & 'outstanding cinematography'. What a shame the chances of a public screening over here,or a dvd release are,in the words of the reviewer,'between remote and nil'! It would only take up 82 minutes of BBC2,BBC4,or Channel 4's,time! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 04, 2012, 06:30:32 AM
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/June12/Gothic_symphony_film.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/June12/Gothic_symphony_film.htm)


Thanks, cilgwyn! Yes, it really is a shame that most people won't be able to see this. I hope the HBS can strike a deal with the producer et cetera, so that members will be able to buy it.


Did you read about the new HB uploads at UC? The Pope 3 sounds terrific.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 04, 2012, 07:02:17 AM
My multi region dvd player (currently playing Region 1 Cheers episodes) should be able to cope with an Australian dvd. I can buy cds  from 'down under',via Amazon sellers,if I want to,keeping the £18 over duty penalty,in mind. I wonder why it hasn't been released there? Don't tell me it's less interesting than Neighbours & Picnic at hanging rock?!!! :o

Yes,I have read about the UC downloads. Thank you for reminding me,Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 07, 2012, 07:16:51 PM
After lots of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven I'm back to listening to HB! Feels like coming home.

I'm listening to the symphonies in reverse order, today I have listened to Nos 32, 31 and 30. Stirring stuff.

One amusing incident, as I often do I went at lunchtime to walk around the park near my work, listening on my headphones. Towards the end of No.31, I ran into a flock of Little Corellas who were rather bothered and vocal. Little Correllas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Corella

Are the Havergal Brians of the bird world: compact, feisty, and not caring what anyone thinks of them, as just as HB's music is sometimes a bit loud, so too are LCs' calls (especially the second recording):

http://www.xeno-canto.org/browse.php?query=Little+corella&species_nr=

Anyway, the point was that the sound of the noisy cockatoos seeming to become one with the music, not disrupting it. Perhaps we can find some employment for Corellas in the next recording of this work (untuned woodwind?)



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 07, 2012, 11:36:45 PM
Nice story! I like the vociferous birds - put them in the 'Gothic'. If they become too rowdy, we can use the bird scare.

I don't think many people would describe listening to HB like 'coming home', but I know exactly what you mean... I hope you downloaded the excellent new-old recordings at Unsung Composers of symphonies 2, 3, 4, 7 and 23 plus the Faust Prologue? They have made my day(s).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 08, 2012, 08:11:07 PM
I've just discovered that via our local library service I have access at home to the Grove Dictionary of Music online. I have consulted this before in hard copy but I didn't read the HB entry. Anyway it's by Malcolm MacDonald (of course) and it has some gems which I thought I'd quote here. In MM's 3 volumes on the symphonies and his program notes and sleeve notes MM is, as it were, preaching to the converted, but here he has only a few hundred words inform people about HB, or is it warn them!

'Brian's mature music is simultaneously monumental and subversive...

Although a conscious extension of the choral symphony tradition, The Gothic becomes a wild critique of the form...

By 1948 his discourse had become relentlessly contrapuntal....

Paradoxically, while [the symphonies] appear to remain within a broadly traditional tonal framework, their forms and thought have an obliquity and density more readily associated with serial or post-serial music...

[The late operas' ] appeal is complicated by the relentlessly unlyrical quality of their word-setting – perhaps another Brianesque critique of a chosen genre.'

What a good writer he is!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 09, 2012, 12:38:53 AM
Great quotes! I especially like 'Paradoxically, while [the symphonies] appear to remain within a broadly traditional tonal framework, their forms and thought have an obliquity and density more readily associated with serial or post-serial music' and 'Brian's mature music is simultaneously monumental and subversive'. So true.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 10, 2012, 05:27:34 PM
I'm working my way through the symphonies backwards, descending through the 20s. The better quality 23 is much appreciated. I realise now that this work is a formal joke (love 'em). For example the Robert Simpson sq no 12 is a long slow movement followed by a long scherzo, it's a complete work of great power, but if you think of it as the middle two movements of a 4 movement sq, like Haydn's last, unfinished sq, the fom gains more point. It's hard to imagine how huge and powerful this work would be with the full four movements--inhumanly huge, so these two will suffice.

The HB symphony 23 is an opening and a closing movement one after the other, and the joke is the opposite of the Simpson work. Here all you get is the outer movements and you have to get lyrical and scherzo like music from snippets within them!

Also liking no.24, I think this one has the potential to be a good introduction for non-brianites. The last movement has more sustained lyricism than any other Brian work, except perhaps the first movement of 11. (Personal note, Brian was working on this work the month I was born!)

[I'm also finding that the BBC recordings, and cd rips, sound better on my iPad than on my iPod, better audio hardware I guess, sometimes it takes me some time to catch up with technology].
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 12, 2012, 04:22:35 PM
More notes from middle Brian.

Finding Symphony No.19 a real delight. As MM says, the curious thing about this work is that most of the music in this symphony is in the major. I think my ideal next Brian CD would be very good performances of the symphonies 22, 23 and 24, plus 19. That should open a few eyes!

Someone mentioned a break after No.17, and said that after this work Brian's music never sounds the same again. I couldn't pick this listening to them in ascending order, but noted it coming down. I think it has to do with the symphonies up to and including 17 having longer melodic lines. After writing 17 Brian was concerned with the preparations for the first performance of the Gothic (not the 1966 Proms performance but the earlier performance, in 1961, conducted by Brian Fairfax), and he may have thought, looking at the score, "Well, I was pretty radical 35 years ago, better ramp it a bit now, don't want to be old-fashioned". Then he wrote 18 as a thank-you to Fairfax and this work is scored for smaller forces than usual, Brian may have thought of it as a divertimento, but once he had written it decided to explore the vein further, and never left the new, more broken up and less sustained melodic writing of his new style.

One further thought, I wonder if 17 isn't another formal joke. It's divided into three movements, a longish opening movement, fast, with slow episodes, a short slow movement and a short finale. However, I've listened to it three or four times, and each time is sounds more like one movement, with the slow movement as a slow episode and the finale as the last recapitulatory stretch.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 14, 2012, 03:07:38 AM
Thanks, calyptorhynchus, for your Brianic musings! I like your 'formal joke' idea. I personally find a work like 'Das Siegeslied' interesting, too, in that respect. It is in three movements. The first is Maestoso, an allegro movement, with a slow central part. The middle movement, Lento, is a slow movement with a quick central part. And in the final movement, Allegro, you get a, rather sinister, central scherzo section. So the traditional four-movement symphony seems to peek through the three-movement structure in a very intricate way.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 14, 2012, 08:48:28 AM
I had the original Marco Polo release of Das Siegeslied in a carrier bag,ready to take down the charity shop. I was beginning to come along to John's point of view,after nearly playing my dolby cassette copy of the Poole performance to death,as a teenager! How I loved it then,especially the second movement,with those loud climaxes that almost seemed to outdo their counterparts in the Gothic,in terms of apocalyptic,wall pulverising volume!
  Nevertheless,it survived. I opened the bag & it just seemed to 'jump' into my outstretched hand! ;D As did,Holbrooke's String Quartet's & Templeton Strong's 'Sintram' Symphony,which,even if it's not an American 'Ilya Murometz',(and it ISN'T!) I now find quite interesting,in it's turbulent,uneven way. It could do with a really good tune,though!!!
The Tveitt is going though,as is the Adolphe Biarent & goodness,I have tried with both of them! :(
  But what the blazes was Villa Lobos's Choros No 11,doing there? Let alone,Holst's 'The Cloud Messenger'?!!! :o As 'Private Eye' might say,'Shome mistake,ed!' The Villa Lobos is a mind boggling blockbuster. The Cloud Messenger,dismissed,by Imogen Holst. An astonishing piece!
  And Das Siegeslied? Loud it may be,but it has a wierd,sinister atmosphere & even if it's not on the same level of inspiration as Belshazzar's Feast,I can't think of another British quite like it. Lambert's Summers last will & testament,possibly? But,wait a minute......oh dear,that went down to the charity shop!!!! :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on June 14, 2012, 10:56:53 PM
Where IS your charity shop? Seems like they might have some good stuff. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2012, 03:10:45 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on June 14, 2012, 10:56:53 PM
Where IS your charity shop? Seems like they might have some good stuff. :)

Indeed. I'm amazed what he discards. But my questions is: What is a charity shop? Obviously a shop where you can dump things you don't want, and buy things you do, but what exactly is it? An actual charity? Do they pay you directly for your unwanted items or take a commission when they do sell your item?

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on June 16, 2012, 02:01:03 AM
Hi Sarge,
Since the demise of town and city shopping centres due to the rise of the out of town shopping malls, the high streets in the UK are full of empty shops/stores. These empty premises have been filled with "charity shops". Anyone in the UK can set up such a shop by obtaining charitable status from the taxman but they must prove that they are doing some sort of social service or have an educational purpose. To fund themselves many charities open shops selling second hand goods, where anyone can donate items for free and the shop assistants are often retired people who donate their services for free. Some more well known examples are Oxfam, the Red Cross and Barnardos (a charity for orphans).
A problem is that the executives of the charity are allowed to cream off expenses which a minority do, to the extent of removing 90% of the income for themselves and only 10% going to their cause. Charities are now big business here in the UK.
The Havergal Brian Society is an educational charity, albeit a very small specialised one with no shops in the high street at all :) but there would be nothing to stop them opening one if they wished. Can I suggest opening one in Dover? selfishly near me 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 16, 2012, 05:21:26 AM
My experience with one particular charity,which I shall not name,was enough to make me a little dubious,myself. And you only have to look at all the celeb involvement & big company donations,to feel some sympathy for Hattoff's viewpoint......but I had to get to the other side of the room & there are ALLOT of cds here! ;D
  Also,I didn't have any Ken Dodd or Max Bygrave cds,so Biarent,Tveitt & Debussy,had to do.
  Not being a complete idiot,(yet?)I kept the limited editions for myself........and the idea of Richard Strauss & Ildebrando Pizzetti,sandwiched between Bucks Fizz & Max Bygraves,is rather fun! (On second thoughts,I'd rather not think about it! :o)

I'm taking the family silver down there,later! ;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on June 16, 2012, 05:32:18 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 16, 2012, 05:21:26 AM
....and the idea of Richard Strauss & Ildebrando Pizzetti,sandwiched between Bucks Fizz & Max Bygraves, is rather fun!

Who are these Strauss & Pizetti, one wonders.  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 16, 2012, 06:36:59 AM
 :) And at charity shop prices,who knows,Pizzetti,Strauss,Biarent & Tveitt,could make some new 'friends'?
The Marco Polo releases of Cyril Scott & D'indy (Fervaal,etc),York Bowen Preludes (Hyperion) are down there,too!
Knowing my luck,the York Bowen will sell,quicker than you can say Britney Spears! :(
Incidentally,I like Pizzetti. The cd that got that got 'dumped' was the Naxos 'Concerto dell 'estate'. The Decca Eloquence release is so much better! I actually like that one,now. Marco Polo,beware!!!

NB: Great,now I'll have put everyone off Pizzetti!!! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 16, 2012, 06:45:13 AM
Just checked the spelling of Pizzetti & the browser gave me Pizza Hut! I can see the connection,though! But whether Pizzetti ever ate Pizza is another matter;but I'd be amazed if he didn't.
Hey,they even sound similar! Pizza & Pizzetti! Amazing!
I wonder which flavour he liked?

Back to Brian!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 16, 2012, 07:55:07 AM
Oxfam in Oldham is mega. They recently got hold of the BBC Manchester CD library for nothing. I know the chap and he took me into the store room. Solt's Decca Ring - arguably the greatest Decca production of all time - was a steal at 30 quid. Forked out 200 quid in total for some obscure rarities.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2012, 09:47:47 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on June 16, 2012, 02:01:03 AM
Hi Sarge, Since the demise of town and city shopping centres.....

Thank you for taking the time to explain. cilgwyn's strange charity comings and goings make some sense now  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on June 16, 2012, 01:02:29 PM
Being an inhabitant of the south east like Mr Hattoff, I can confirm that my little seaside town (not far from the famous Shoreham-by-sea) is full to bursting with charity shops. You wouldn't believe the number of 1960s twin-sets we have in the wardrobe...   ;D

Excuse me, I have to get the grand opening of the Havergal Brian Society charity shop in Pratt's Bottom...

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 16, 2012, 02:39:55 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on June 16, 2012, 01:02:29 PM
Being an inhabitant of the south east like Mr Hattoff, I can confirm that my little seaside town (not far from the famous Shoreham-by-sea) is full to bursting with charity shops. You wouldn't believe the number of 1960s twin-sets we have in the wardrobe...   ;D

Excuse me, I have to get the grand opening of the Havergal Brian Society charity shop in Pratt's Bottom...

;)
Who is Pratt? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on June 16, 2012, 10:57:23 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2012, 09:47:47 AM
Thank you for taking the time to explain. cilgwyn's strange charity comings and goings make some sense now  ;D

Sarge

You're very welcome

Quote from: John Whitmore on June 16, 2012, 02:39:55 PM
Who is Pratt? ;D

You should see the rest of him, he's covered in shops. I believe he has a complete chain in one area. :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 17, 2012, 08:46:52 AM
According to the 'official website',Pratts Bottom,a 'village' in the London borough of Bromley,is "often the butt of jokes!"

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 17, 2012, 08:49:00 AM
 :D


A very big one, I'd think.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 17, 2012, 03:10:45 PM
Getting down towards early Brian. Noticed that just as the symphony No.17 is the last one with such sustained melodic lines, No. 7 is the last with melodic lines of conventional length, so you could mark the phases of HB's symphonies as early Gothic - 7, middle 8-17 and late 17 onwards.

What a triology 8-10 are! Listened to them several times over the weekend.

Final thought for now, HB, like all great composers is entirely himself, that is his music doesn't sound like anyone else's. I was wondering if people could suggest some of the few passages of Brian that do sound like other composers. I can think of only a few:

Elgar: a few passages in the earlier symphonies, and, strangely in the very last, 32.
Bruckner: the scherzos of 2 and 7 sound like a little like Bruckner brought up to date (much as Simpson's 4th sounds like Beethoven brought up to date);
Mahler: occasional suggestions of Mahler, eg 7 third movement.
Sibelius: parts of 6, 10 and 12 sound a little like his music
Tippett: some turns of phrase in slower music in the later symphonies are sometimes a little reminiscent of the Tippett of the 1st and 2nd Symphonies.
English Pastoral: some of the music from the English Suites, and bits of various symphonies eg 3, 9, 21, 24, but usually this is in a context where he is about to mock it a few bars later
Walton: Some brassy bits of pomp and circumstance in eg 15 sound a little like Walton, but again, these are rapidly undercut.

Wonder if anyone can add to this list?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on June 17, 2012, 04:07:11 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 17, 2012, 03:10:45 PM
Getting down towards early Brian. Noticed that just as the symphony No.17 is the last one with such sustained melodic lines, No. 7 is the last with melodic lines of conventional length, so you could mark the phases of HB's symphonies as early Gothic - 7, middle 8-17 and late 17 onwards.

What a triology 8-10 are! Listened to them several times over the weekend.

Final thought for now, HB, like all great composers is entirely himself, that is his music doesn't sound like anyone else's. I was wondering if people could suggest some of the few passages of Brian that do sound like other composers. I can think of only a few:

Elgar: a few passages in the earlier symphonies, and, strangely in the very last, 32.
Bruckner: the scherzos of 2 and 7 sound like a little like Bruckner brought up to date (much as Simpson's 4th sounds like Beethoven brought up to date);
Mahler: occasional suggestions of Mahler, eg 7 third movement.
Sibelius: parts of 6, 10 and 12 sound a little like his music
Tippett: some turns of phrase in slower music in the later symphonies are sometimes a little reminiscent of the Tippett of the 1st and 2nd Symphonies.
English Pastoral: some of the music from the English Suites, and bits of various symphonies eg 3, 9, 21, 24, but usually this is in a context where he is about to mock it a few bars later
Walton: Some brassy bits of pomp and circumstance in eg 15 sound a little like Walton, but again, these are rapidly undercut.

Wonder if anyone can add to this list?

I'm not sure that 8, 9 and 10 don't also have melodies that are pretty extended. Especially 8, which seems to me to have some of  Brian's most perfectly poised and yet uncharacteristically lengthy melodies. Odd for such a compressed work, one would think the piece would collapse about them, but they work superbly.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 17, 2012, 09:49:54 PM
@Luke It's only logical that the extended melodies in No. 8 don't cause the work to fall apart, as its central problem is exactly the opposition aggressively terse vs. lyrically extended, or, perhaps, Power vs. Love...

@calyptorhynchus The opening of No. 10 is very similar to Ravel's Piano Concerto for the Left Hand. The Maestoso outburst in the early phase of No. 16 sounds like the main theme in Roussel's Third (especially in its first and last appearances).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on June 18, 2012, 03:52:46 AM
Richard Strauss was a clear influence in some passages within Dr Merryheart and In Memoriam. There are conscious allusions to Mahler in the second movement of the 11th (4th and 6th symphonies in particular), and to the Stravinsky of Dumbarton Oaks at the end of the 14th.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 18, 2012, 04:22:58 AM
And the rhythm hammered out in the Vivace of the 'Gothic', after the transitional passage with the xylophone, quotes the battle scene from Strauss's Heldenleben.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 18, 2012, 04:44:37 AM
Reading all these recent posts with considerable interest. So in a nutshell good old HB just nicked everyone else's work  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 18, 2012, 04:47:43 AM
'Talent imitates, genius steals' (iirc).  ;D


The recurring motto in the finale of the Second Symphony alludes to Siegfried's Funeral March.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on June 18, 2012, 05:23:24 AM
When one nicks artfully . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 18, 2012, 05:40:33 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 18, 2012, 04:47:43 AM
'Talent imitates, genius steals' (iirc).  ;D


The recurring motto in the finale of the Second Symphony alludes to Siegfried's Funeral March.
Talent imitates, genius steals and HB nicks. Re Siegfried - it certainly does allude. A bit more than allude me thinks. Totally nicked. I just avoid the 2nd Symph and listen to the real thing from Dick Wagner. How's the Dutch nation today following your surprise exit? I was hoping to wave goodbye to those jolly Germans but there we go.......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 18, 2012, 05:45:42 AM
A few of my compatriots seem to suffer. I don't. I'm glad it's all over, saves me a lot of noise here in the centre of Delft.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 18, 2012, 05:53:30 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 18, 2012, 05:45:42 AM
A few of my compatriots seem to suffer. I don't. I'm glad it's all over, saves me a lot of noise here in the centre of Delft.  ;D
What are the five inhabitants doing then?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 18, 2012, 05:58:10 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on June 18, 2012, 05:53:30 AM
What are the five inhabitants doing then?


They're just crossing the North Sea, to beat up the Englishman in Delph making fun of them.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 18, 2012, 06:04:43 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 18, 2012, 05:58:10 AM

They're just crossing the North Sea, to beat up the Englishman in Delph making fun of them.
Off to Hull now to meet 'em. It will save 'em best part of 3 hours. How's the Aries note progressing old chap?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 18, 2012, 06:06:45 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on June 18, 2012, 06:04:43 AM
Off to Hull now to meet 'em. It will save 'em best part of 3 hours. How's the Aries note progressing old chap?


:D


I hope to have the thing finished tonight...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 18, 2012, 07:33:05 AM
Two weeks to the release date. I'm really getting excited now despite my ongoing snide remarks about the genius of the Potteries.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 18, 2012, 12:54:53 PM
http://classical-iconoclast.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/havergal-brian-songbook-unexpected.html (http://classical-iconoclast.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/havergal-brian-songbook-unexpected.html)

This is the first 'review' I've seen of the Complete Havergal Brian Song Book Vol 1. (Have any others appeared yet,I wonder?) Somebody likes it,anyway! :)
Hopefully,the link works,if not..... :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 18, 2012, 01:09:40 PM
The link works. Nice to see someone 'getting' Brian for the first time. Btw, I don't think of Brian as "an ordinary man who dreamed big". He was an extraordinary man, living an unassuming life.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 18, 2012, 02:31:39 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions of composers that HB can be thought to sound like (however briefly), the Wagner in the finale of No.2 I had spotted of course  :D

Looking forward to the new (or old) violin conc release. Listening to some of the BBC premieres of HB symphonies I was struck by how much more vital many of these are than some later recordings. I don't know, you know the view that only Czech orchestras can play Janacek, or only Russian orchestras Shostakovitch, well perhaps you could say that HB was writing for a sort of BBC orchestra sound and ethos, in his later symphonies certainly, and more recent recordings by non-UK orchestras, or modern UK orchestras have moved away from this type of sound and playing.

Listening to the improved sound version of the BBC S2 premiere last night I was amused at the announcer's concluding remark "This concludes the BBC series of broadcasts of all 32 of the Havergal Brian symphonies." He sounded very relieved.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 18, 2012, 02:55:23 PM
I'm inclined to agree with you,Johan! The number of times I've read this,usually in ill informed reviews ie Brian setting out to compose colossal unperformable works & Brian as some kind of wilful eccentric trying to be different.
If you read about his life & listen to him in interviews,nothing could be further from the truth! The Gothic had to be big! I don't think Brian thought,'Right,I'm going to compose a colossal record breaking symphony for hundreds of performers'. He just gradually realised that this was the only way of realising the immensity of the subject with which he was dealing. I think like,Tolkein's 'Lord of the Rings',it,sort of (I don't mean literally!) wrote itself. The more Brian got into it,the more he composed,the bigger it got.
If Brian HAD been able to fulfill his creative vision with a smaller work I'm sure he would have been quite happy to have saved himself years of labour! But it HAD to be big! In that respect,Brian was no Berlioz,which is why,his later work gets shorter and sparer!
  As to wanting to be cussedly different. I think that,at the beginning,Brian would just like to have had his music performed. Unfortunately,his personality,circumstances & some bad luck,isolated him from the mainstream of British music & like any true creative artist he followed his own personal muse. The one good aspect of this creative 'isolation' was that he didn't have to worry about the critics,or the musical establishment any more,he could just focus on what he really wanted to compose.
Havergal Brian needed to compose. It was something he had to do. He had an idea in his head & he had to pursue it in the best possible way that presented itself. If he hadn't,it would probably have gone round & round in his head,until he was finally compelled to put pen to paper. It probably helped keep him sane,at times!
  Yet,at the end of his life,Brian was content to put down his pen. Far from being frustrated or bitter,he appears to have been a very contented man.

Anyway,I'm no Brian expert. Just a few thoughts! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 18, 2012, 02:58:52 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on Today at 00:31:39 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg637915#msg637915)

Listening to the improved sound version of the BBC S2 premiere last night I was amused at the announcer's concluding remark "This concludes the BBC series of broadcasts of all 32 of the Havergal Brian symphonies." He sounded very relieved.

:D


You must also listen to the Leslie Head performance (the 3rd one, not the 2nd). It really added to my understanding and appreciation of the work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 18, 2012, 03:03:22 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on Today at 00:55:23 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg637919#msg637919)
If Brian HAD been able to fulfill his creative vision with a smaller work I'm sure he would have been quite happy to have saved himself years of labour! But it HAD to be big! In that respect,Brian was no Berlioz,which is why,his later work gets shorter and sparer!



There is, possibly, another reason for the shortness of the later symphonies - age. I know an aged Dutch novelist and poet, now in his 88th year. He said to me he wasn't able to write novels anymore, only poetry. His latest poetry collection is full of very allusive and quick-witted poems. No long sentences, but sharp bursts and a mercurial interplay of ideas. Remind you of someone?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 19, 2012, 01:15:00 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 18, 2012, 03:03:22 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on Today at 00:55:23 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg637919#msg637919)
If Brian HAD been able to fulfill his creative vision with a smaller work I'm sure he would have been quite happy to have saved himself years of labour! But it HAD to be big! In that respect,Brian was no Berlioz,which is why,his later work gets shorter and sparer!



There is, possibly, another reason for the shortness of the later symphonies - age. I know an aged Dutch novelist and poet, now in his 88th year. He said to me he wasn't able to write novels anymore, only poetry. His latest poetry collection is full of very allusive and quick-witted poems.
No long sentences, but sharp bursts and a mercurial interplay of ideas. Remind you of someone?

Is the answer Bruckner by any chance?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 19, 2012, 07:10:03 AM
I was thinking,Khatchaturian,actually! ;D Incidentally,reading some of the earlier posts,I was shocked to discover that there are no traces of the influence of the great Armenian in any of Brian's major works!
And there I was thinking how remarkably similar the lyrical theme in the eighth symphony was to the big romantic theme,in the famous 'Onedin Line ballet', set,during the slaves revolt, in ancient Rome.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mountain Goat on June 21, 2012, 06:23:23 AM
Great to see my favourite obscure composer has such an active thread on here! I've been a bit of a Brian nut ever since hearing the Gothic Symphony at the proms last year.

I don't know if this has already been mentioned somewhere in the 200+ pages of this thread, but the 27th symphony is being performed in Birmingham on Monday - anyone on here going?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 21, 2012, 06:27:18 AM
Welcome, Mountain Goat! This giant thread is beloved and infamous in equal measure... I know about the performance coming Monday. Unfortunately I live too far away (in the Netherlands), though that didn't deter me from attending the 'Gothic' last year. I hope some Brianites can make it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 21, 2012, 07:41:35 AM
At Unsung Composers Albion, who is active on this forum too, just made a nice list of the Brian recordings their archive now contains:


http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1169.msg36752.html#msg36752 (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1169.msg36752.html#msg36752)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2012, 07:17:32 AM
Quote from: Mountain Goat on June 21, 2012, 06:23:23 AM
Great to see my favourite obscure composer has such an active thread on here! I've been a bit of a Brian nut ever since hearing the Gothic Symphony at the proms last year.

I don't know if this has already been mentioned somewhere in the 200+ pages of this thread, but the 27th symphony is being performed in Birmingham on Monday - anyone on here going?
'Brian nut!' I love it! ;D
You've go to be a 'nut' to like Brian! :( ;D
Any Schubert Nut's,out there?
You've got to be a nut to like Schubert! :)
And what about a Rott Nut?
Or even a Villa Lobos,nut?
Which could mean you're a bit of a Brazil nut!
I listened to a few Holbrooke cds last week & I confess to liking some of his music.
That could make me a fully fledged Holbrooke nut!
And the cap somehow fits,because,although I'm not inferring anything,he did annoy allot of people & he did behave in a way that some people would describe as nutty!
I also listened to a pile of Faure cds,recently. Does that make me a Faure nut?
Or what about the organist/composer,Norman Cocker (1889-1953). If I enjoy his music,does that mean I'm a cocker nut?!!! :o ;D

Anyway,that's enough nuts,for now. I don't even like them at Christmas! I just ate a banana ten minutes ago. I like eating something I don't need a locksmith & a jemmy to open.
Monkeys are a pretty savvy bunch,when you think about it! :)




Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2012, 09:40:53 AM
Oh,and (my manners! :o) Welcome to the Havergal Brian thread,Mountain Goat!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 23, 2012, 08:57:30 AM
I've managed to get Holbrooke & Bantock at the top. Got to get HB up there,as well! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 24, 2012, 02:43:23 PM
Hey Guys

Just a thought: we are indebted to the personal recordings off the BBC of various kind people who have shared them, especially for the HB symphonies not yet recorded/not available: 5, 13, 14, 19, 23, 24, 26, 27, 28, 29.

Does the BBC still hold archives of the broadcast concerts that it has commissioned over the years? If so, mightn't there be so way of getting the BBC to produce mp3s of significant broadcasts not otherwise available (like the above mentioned HB symphonies)?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 24, 2012, 02:48:58 PM
Your question reminds me of the first time I ever visited Britain. That was because of... Brian. August 1986. There was a concert in London, at the British Music Information Centre, off Oxford Street. Raymond Clarke performed a selection of Brian's piano music. A few days later I met up with an HBS member in Haywards Heath. He showed me the Sussex Downs (the Weald). And he mentioned to me that he knew someone at the BBc, who had told him that it held all the master tapes of the HB broadcasts, but that there were no plans to issue (some of) them commercially...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on June 24, 2012, 02:52:38 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 24, 2012, 02:43:23 PMmightn't there be [some] way of getting the BBC to produce mp3s of significant broadcasts not otherwise available

:o ??? :o ??? :o

Based on the current self-evident levels of ignorance, apathy and philistinism, no.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 24, 2012, 02:55:43 PM
Quote from: Albion on Today at 00:52:38 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg639404#msg639404)
:o ??? :o ??? :o

Based on the current self-evident levels of ignorance, apathy and philistinism, no.



Grim, but true.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 24, 2012, 03:54:28 PM
 :( Indeed! The Beeb are notoriously tight fisted with their archives & this includes their tv output,as well (thank goodness for companies,like Network! Although,they're output is mostly ITV!)) The idea of Brian Mp3's is a nice one,but I'd be truly amazed,if this happened. With their schedules as dull as ditch water,these days,the BBC is,sadly,way past it's sell by date,as far as I'm concerned;let alone thinking up innovative ways of opening up their archives.

Come on 'Auntie'....amaze me (us!) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 24, 2012, 11:06:14 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 24, 2012, 03:54:28 PM
:( Indeed! The Beeb are notoriously tight fisted with their archives & this includes their tv output,as well (thank goodness for companies,like Network! Although,they're output is mostly ITV!)) The idea of Brian Mp3's is a nice one,but I'd be truly amazed,if this happened. With their schedules as dull as ditch water,these days,the BBC is,sadly,way past it's sell by date,as far as I'm concerned;let alone thinking up innovative ways of opening up their archives.
Come on 'Auntie'....amaze me (us!) ;D
Does anybody have the telephone number of the SAS? They are pretty good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 25, 2012, 02:59:31 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 25, 2012, 11:39:25 AM
No sign of the SAS,yet,John? This could be the Spaghetti House siege,all over again! The first thing the Beeb would know about it would be a ransome note. Enough for professional recordings of everything Brian ever wrote! I'm putting on my balaclava,now..........

Wait a minute........I've put it on back to front! :o :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 26, 2012, 02:05:25 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 25, 2012, 11:39:25 AM
No sign of the SAS,yet,John? This could be the Spaghetti House siege,all over again! The first thing the Beeb would know about it would be a ransome note. Enough for professional recordings of everything Brian ever wrote! I'm putting on my balaclava,now..........

Wait a minute........I've put it on back to front! :o :(
They are currently on another top secret but essential mission - destroying the Khachaturian and Bruckner archives. I hope they are successful with minimal casualties. Holmes fiddle concerto now days away. Can't wait to hear what it sounds like.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 27, 2012, 11:09:27 PM
I just bought the Holmes Violin Concerto. Well worth a listen. Luckily the original Aries pressing was in good condition. Wonderful performance.

http://store.payloadz.com/details/1036215-music-classical-havergal-brian-violin-concerto-in-c-1935-ralph-holmes-violin-new-philharmonia-orchestra-stanley-pope-symphony-no-28-in-c-minor-1967-new-philharmonia-orchestra-leopold-stokowski.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 28, 2012, 12:48:23 AM
Look past the 'analize' on the Payloadz page, ladies and gents.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 28, 2012, 03:19:34 AM
Downloading now, the symphony 28 is a bonus. How exciting!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 28, 2012, 08:03:25 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 28, 2012, 12:48:23 AM
Look past the 'analize' on the Payloadz page, ladies and gents.  ;)
Worry not. Your English is better than most of the people that live in England. You should take up writing ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 28, 2012, 01:15:08 PM
You're too kind.  :-[


But now - everything's been sorted:


http://www.klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Violin-Concerto-Symphony-No--28.php (http://www.klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Violin-Concerto-Symphony-No--28.php)


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 28, 2012, 05:22:29 PM
Ok, listened to the new Violin Concerto recording last night. Like it. Then listened to the Friend/Bisengaliev recording to decide why I liked the Pope/Holmes. I couldn't decide, obviously the newer recording had better quality, I couldn't detect that the older recording had better playing, Pope's tempi were faster &c

Somehow Pope manged to make each movement more of a whole, his recording makes the Concerto sound more like other violin concertos if you know what I mean.

As to the Symphony No.28, there's a story about a school report which reads "Now that X's handwriting has improved we can see how little he really does know." Well, now we have 28 in a better quality recording we can see what a very strange work it is, even by Brian standards. The tintinabulations in the finale are quite amazing, and I don't agree with MM that Stokowski makes the percussion too prominent. I think prominent percussion is the point of the finale.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 28, 2012, 11:16:05 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 28, 2012, 05:22:29 PM
Ok, listened to the new Violin Concerto recording last night. Like it. Then listened to the Friend/Bisengaliev recording to decide why I liked the Pope/Holmes. I couldn't decide, obviously the newer recording had better quality, I couldn't detect that the older recording had better playing, Pope's tempi were faster &c

Somehow Pope manged to make each movement more of a whole, his recording makes the Concerto sound more like other violin concertos if you know what I mean.

As to the Symphony No.28, there's a story about a school report which reads "Now that X's handwriting has improved we can see how little he really does know." Well, now we have 28 in a better quality recording we can see what a very strange work it is, even by Brian standards. The tintinabulations in the finale are quite amazing, and I don't agree with MM that Stokowski makes the percussion too prominent. I think prominent percussion is the point of the finale.
I agree. The whole thing is a bit bonkers and that's probably just what HB was looking for. Re the concerto, there is nothing wrong with the Naxos at all but I personally think that Holmes just gets under the work's skin a wee bit more, almost linking parts of it to Elgar. There's even a whiff of the Windflower theme to be heard. I like both. At least the Holmes recorded sound is now more pleasant to listen to.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mountain Goat on July 02, 2012, 12:22:33 PM
I was able to make it to Birmingham last week for the performance of Symphony No. 27. This, together with No. 30, is probably my favourite of the "late" symphonies so it was great to hear it live, and very well performed too by the Orange County High School for the Arts Symphony Orchestra conducted by Christopher Russell. I don't know if there were any other Brianites there, though I did notice a couple of chaps who looked like they might be the type  ;D
I really enjoyed the rest of the concert too, especially the Dvořák Te Deum in the second half (a work which I had not heard before) which was a bonus, though for the Brian I would even have been prepared to sit through some Stockhausen or Boulez  :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 02, 2012, 01:33:06 PM
Many thanks, Mountain Goat, for your post! You are the first to report on last week's performance. I wish I could have been there! No. 27 is one of my favourite late ones, too. You say the work was performed very well - if so, the orchestral playing must have been of a very high standard. I hope the concert was recorded, so that all those absent Brianites will still have a chance to hear it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 02, 2012, 11:32:29 PM
American youth orchestras are technically very good and this one is one of the best. I see no reason why it shouldn't have been a decent performance. However, it's all about interpretation - sometimes school groups tend to play the notes but not the music. I wonder if one of the school staff recorded it? If so it will find its way onto Youtube. I bet it was high quality.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mountain Goat on July 05, 2012, 12:52:25 PM
Found a review of the concert, sadly along much the same lines as most reviews of last year's Gothic:

http://www.birminghampost.net/life-leisure-birmingham-guide/birmingham-culture/music-in-birmingham/2012/06/29/review-orange-county-high-school-of-the-arts-birmingham-town-hall-65233-31266101/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 05, 2012, 01:01:19 PM
"In the event, despite a committed performance from the OCHSA Symphony Orchestra under Christopher Russell (fabulous solo flute-playing), the work revealed yet again why the composer should have kept most of his outpourings in a suitcase under his bed. Nielsen wrote this particular music so much more effectively."


How perceptive.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2012, 01:02:56 PM
Oof.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 05, 2012, 01:04:10 PM
Make that 'Oaf'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 05, 2012, 05:41:30 PM
I think Nielsen would have appreciated HB's music. Although the Dane was a past master of musical continuity, in some of his works we shows a Brianesque delight in juxtaposing starkly different musical textures, ie the Sixth Symphony.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 06, 2012, 03:11:55 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 05, 2012, 01:01:19 PM
"In the event, despite a committed performance from the OCHSA Symphony Orchestra under Christopher Russell (fabulous solo flute-playing), the work revealed yet again why the composer should have kept most of his outpourings in a suitcase under his bed. Nielsen wrote this particular music so much more effectively."


How perceptive.
To be fair,quite a handy place to keep them!  I've got a pair of drawers under mine! :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 06, 2012, 04:04:23 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 06, 2012, 03:11:55 AM
To be fair,quite a handy place to keep them!  I've got a pair of drawers under mine! :o ;D
Scientists have been looking for the God Particle for years. You know where it was? In my sock draw :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 06, 2012, 04:22:23 AM
'God Particle'? You mean the HB Particle.  ;) 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 06, 2012, 05:28:54 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 06, 2012, 04:22:23 AM
'God Particle'? You mean the HB Particle.  ;)
That's the one. The Harry Blenkinsop Particle. I'm still listening to Holmes hacking his way through that peculiar fiddle concerto. I'm sort of liking it. Are you? Not too keen on the coupling though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 06, 2012, 05:40:11 AM
The coupling - Symphony No. 28 - here gets its first and only (partially flawed) performance under Stokowski, who didn't care for the piece. I still like it, though. I find it reminiscent, strangely enough, to the RVW 8, though its ending is much more violent. But that's Brian for you.


Glad you can appreciate that 'peculiar fiddle concerto', though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 06, 2012, 05:45:37 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 06, 2012, 05:40:11 AM
The coupling - Symphony No. 28 - here gets its first and only (partially flawed) performance under Stokowski, who didn't care for the piece. I still like it, though. I find it reminiscent, strangely enough, to the RVW 8, though its ending is much more violent. But that's Brian for you.


Glad you can appreciate that 'peculiar fiddle concerto', though.
I'm liking Brian more than I used to. I think it's age related. My good taste gland seems to be shrinking. Like some of my other bits.................. :D :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 06, 2012, 05:57:32 AM
Your honesty is appreciated.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 06, 2012, 06:17:52 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on July 06, 2012, 05:45:37 AM
I'm liking Brian more than I used to. I think it's age related. My good taste gland seems to be shrinking. Like some of my other bits.................. :D :(
Another ten years & you'll be a regular at the Khatchaturian thread with multiple recordings of the infamous third!
Another five years,Anton Bruckner! One of the shorter symphonies,perhaps?! ;D

I wonder what I'll be listening to? :(

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 06, 2012, 06:22:57 AM
I want to explore a composer like Ligeti when I have the time.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 06, 2012, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 06, 2012, 06:22:57 AM
I want to explore a composer like Ligeti when I have the time.
Do you mean a composer like Ligeti or just Ligeti?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 06, 2012, 11:59:44 AM
Ligeti, Xenakis, Boulez, Cage, and other avant-garde composers with huge reputations...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 06, 2012, 03:40:46 PM
I'm not really 'into' that sort of music,I must admit;but I remember being rather taken by a broadcast of Ligeti's 'Le Grande Macabre',years ago. I think I actually taped it,at the time.
  As to things I wouldn't mind exploring;the BIS Villa Lobos boxed set of the complete 'Choros',would be very nice. I had his Choros No 11 lined up for the charity shop a while back. I think my mother put me off it;but she's elderly,fair play & it is long! I thought I'd give it another go.
  What an amazing piece of music. The intricacy of the orchestration. Like the 'Gothic',very difficult to take in at first. You need to listen a few times to 'map it' all out in your head.
  As to Khatchaturian,maybe I'll give him another go! I used to love his music when I was young. My parents home would be,regularly, shaken to the foundation with Lp's & cassettes of the 'Gothic','Das Siegeslied','Ilya Murometz','Gayaneh','Spartacus',Masquerade,Emerson,Lake & Palmer & Janis Joplin. All full blast! :o

The Chandos Lp of Bax's 'Winter Legends' had lots of great 'noisy bits' too! ;D

Listening to a complete 1912 pathe recording of Gounod's Romeo & Juliet,now. A 3cd set from the VAI label. Amazing transfers,by that wizard,Ward Marston. Dear g*d,the sets are pricey,though! :o :( :)

And what's this about a 'Brian particle'?!!! ::)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on July 12, 2012, 05:44:43 PM
I am now the proud owner of a Havergal Brian LP.  Never mind that I haven't had an LP player for about twenty years and don't have one of those converting to MP3 things.  That's what Best Buy is for, after all.

Went to a used record store, started leafing through the vinyl selection for entertainment,  and found myself looking at Havergal Brian on the cover.  It's the LSSO recordings of Symphonies 10 and 21.  The LP jacket is sort of falling apart, but for $3.95 (US) why complain. 

And I would have never expected it.  A resident of Fort Lauderdale interested enough in Havergal Brian back in the LP era would probably be about as common as a menu in Italy that offers spaghetti and meatballs*, although there is enough influence from resident Brits and touristy Brits to make it somewhat better than zero. 

*If you've never been there--the Italians take great culinary pride in explaining to Americans that spaghetti with meatballs is an American invention, and true Italian cuisine knows it not.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 13, 2012, 12:53:12 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 12, 2012, 05:44:43 PM
I am now the proud owner of a Havergal Brian LP.  Never mind that I haven't had an LP player for about twenty years and don't have one of those converting to MP3 things.  That's what Best Buy is for, after all.

Went to a used record store, started leafing through the vinyl selection for entertainment,  and found myself looking at Havergal Brian on the cover.  It's the LSSO recordings of Symphonies 10 and 21.  The LP jacket is sort of falling apart, but for $3.95 (US) why complain. 

And I would have never expected it.  A resident of Fort Lauderdale interested enough in Havergal Brian back in the LP era would probably be about as common as a menu in Italy that offers spaghetti and meatballs*, although there is enough influence from resident Brits and touristy Brits to make it somewhat better than zero. 

*If you've never been there--the Italians take great culinary pride in explaining to Americans that spaghetti with meatballs is an American invention, and true Italian cuisine knows it not.
If you don't have a record player you can now get this LP refurbished from Klassic Haus either as a CD or as a download. Take a look at their website. Hope you enjoy hearing it - No.10 especially.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 13, 2012, 01:48:05 AM
If I remember correctly, the HBS used to have a member living in Fort Lauderdale during the 1980s... Martyn (hbswebmaster) will know (ideally)...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 13, 2012, 03:48:03 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 12, 2012, 05:44:43 PM
I am now the proud owner of a Havergal Brian LP.  Never mind that I haven't had an LP player for about twenty years and don't have one of those converting to MP3 things.  That's what Best Buy is for, after all.

Went to a used record store, started leafing through the vinyl selection for entertainment,  and found myself looking at Havergal Brian on the cover.  It's the LSSO recordings of Symphonies 10 and 21.  The LP jacket is sort of falling apart, but for $3.95 (US) why complain. 

And I would have never expected it.  A resident of Fort Lauderdale interested enough in Havergal Brian back in the LP era would probably be about as common as a menu in Italy that offers spaghetti and meatballs*, although there is enough influence from resident Brits and touristy Brits to make it somewhat better than zero. 

*If you've never been there--the Italians take great culinary pride in explaining to Americans that spaghetti with meatballs is an American invention, and true Italian cuisine knows it not.
I wish I'd kept mine! Just for the nostalgia/sentimental value of it,I suppose. But it would be nice to have;my first Havergal Brian recording (after my C90 of the Gothic!) It would take me back to my youth.....but,"Oooh,me back!" Maybe,not quite! ;D Of course,you now have the best of both worlds,Jeffrey. You can play the Klassic Haus cd,or download & prop the Lp up in front of you,like I used to do (and some other's apparently!),while you're listening!
  I do think the original Lp cover would have preferable to the rocky 'mountain scape' chosen for Unicorn's reissue;although some of it would been a bit small. Also,I can see some connections there,with Brian's music; ie 'craggy','granitic' (at times).Also,the mountain brings to mind another symphonic storm of a more pictorial,meteorological nature;the one in Strauss's 'Alpine Symphony',which has been mentioned in relation to the tenth a few times in the past;not because there's any real connection,but because they are so different. Brian's being a storm of the mind, I presume? And,at this point,I really DO need to go and look at that book I bought on ebay,again!
  Of course,someone at Unicorn could have just grabbed the first photo,that 'came along'! It certainly,strikes me as a better choice of cover art than the one Lyrita chose for their reissue of Brian's 6 & 16. The original Lp cover seemed to go allot better,with it's contents..........maybe,I should go and bit on the Lp,now! ;D Of course,I'm just nit picking,there & the Lyrita cd isn't JUST brian,anyway!
  Another s/h Brian Lp that would look really lovely,propped up against my old CRT tv's tv stand (while I listen to the cd) would be the emi 8 & 9.with one of the best photographs of Brian,ever (another is the one adjacent to Johan's posts).
  Incidentally,there are some very good photo's of Brian. I particularly like the one of his moustache! ;D
 
 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on July 13, 2012, 06:50:20 AM
Johan,
I'm in Salt Lake City airport, waiting to ship out home so can't confirm definitively, but I haven't posted a newsletter to anywhere in Florida since I've been doing it. A lot of US members now take the electronic version so I couldn't say where they are located. Certainly nobody I've met this week has heard of Elgar or RVW, let alone HB!

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on July 13, 2012, 08:31:12 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on July 13, 2012, 06:50:20 AM
Johan,
I'm in Salt Lake City airport, waiting to ship out home so can't confirm definitively, but I haven't posted a newsletter to anywhere in Florida since I've been doing it. A lot of US members now take the electronic version so I couldn't say where they are located. Certainly nobody I've met this week has heard of Elgar or RVW, let alone HB!

;D

Not heard of Elgar or RVW....I thought South Florida was a cultural wasteland.  (Listening in fact to RVW's Ninth even as I post this.)
The LP has a date from last year, so whoever sold it to them (of course, there's no saying if it was the original owner or his/her estate) had it up to last spring.    There are some items in the store that were tagged six years or more ago.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 13, 2012, 08:33:48 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on July 13, 2012, 06:50:20 AM
Johan,
I'm in Salt Lake City airport, waiting to ship out home so can't confirm definitively, but I haven't posted a newsletter to anywhere in Florida since I've been doing it. A lot of US members now take the electronic version so I couldn't say where they are located. Certainly nobody I've met this week has heard of Elgar or RVW, let alone HB!

;D
They don't like music over there. They are big into The Osmonds.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 13, 2012, 08:38:25 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 13, 2012, 03:48:03 AM
I wish I'd kept mine! Just for the nostalgia/sentimental value of it,I suppose. But it would be nice to have;my first Havergal Brian recording (after my C90 of the Gothic!) It would take me back to my youth.....but,"Oooh,me back!" Maybe,not quite! ;D Of course,you now have the best of both worlds,Jeffrey. You can play the Klassic Haus cd,or download & prop the Lp up in front of you,like I used to do (and some other's apparently!),while you're listening!    I do think the original Lp cover would have preferable to the rocky 'mountain scape' chosen for Unicorn's reissue;although some of it would been a bit small. Also,I can see some connections there,with Brian's music; ie 'craggy','granitic' (at times).Also,the mountain brings to mind another symphonic storm of a more pictorial,meteorological nature;the one in Strauss's 'Alpine Symphony',which has been mentioned in relation to the tenth a few times in the past;not because there's any real connection,but because they are so different. Brian's being a storm of the mind, I presume? And,at this point,I really DO need to go and look at that book I bought on ebay,again!
  Of course,someone at Unicorn could have just grabbed the first photo,that 'came along'! It certainly,strikes me as a better choice of cover art than the one Lyrita chose for their reissue of Brian's 6 & 16. The original Lp cover seemed to go allot better,with it's contents..........maybe,I should go and bit on the Lp,now! ;D Of course,I'm just nit picking,there & the Lyrita cd isn't JUST brian,anyway!
  Another s/h Brian Lp that would look really lovely,propped up against my old CRT tv's tv stand (while I listen to the cd) would be the emi 8 & 9.with one of the best photographs of Brian,ever (another is the one adjacent to Johan's posts).
  Incidentally,there are some very good photo's of Brian. I particularly like the one of his moustache! ;D
 

What an exciting time you must have had in your youth. Life in the fast lane or what? :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 13, 2012, 02:06:04 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on July 13, 2012, 08:38:25 AM
What an exciting time you must have had in your youth. Life in the fast lane or what? :D
Not with my dads Humber Sceptre! Every 200 yards,or so,he  had to get out and fill it up with water. We were regularly overtaken by pedestrians & dead cats. It was quicker standing! :(
The Renault 4 was even worse. You could see the road through the floor. Mind you,if we'd stuck our feet through we probably could have saved some petrol!
  Not that I particularly minded. All the local kids with cars seemed to have learned their driving skills from watching Starsky & Hutch and the Dukes of Hazzard! :o
  Watching paint dry,in between records,was a real riot! :(

The good old days,eh! :( :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: thranx on July 14, 2012, 02:10:18 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 12, 2012, 05:44:43 PM

*If you've never been there--the Italians take great culinary pride in explaining to Americans that spaghetti with meatballs is an American invention, and true Italian cuisine knows it not.

But you'll never get them to admit that American pizza is better than the Italian version.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 15, 2012, 01:46:19 PM
I;ve just been doing some sums to help me put the HB symphonies on CD to listen to in the car, thought these might be useful. I've started at the end and worked back, and haven't got up to beginning yet, but anyway:

15-18 70 minutes
19-21 75 minutes
Conc for Orchestra and 22-24 56 minutes
25-28  76 minutes
29-32 68 minutes

:-)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 15, 2012, 01:48:39 PM
Drive carefully.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 16, 2012, 06:20:26 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 15, 2012, 01:46:19 PM
I;ve just been doing some sums to help me put the HB symphonies on CD to listen to in the car, thought these might be useful. I've started at the end and worked back, and haven't got up to beginning yet, but anyway:

15-18 70 minutes
19-21 75 minutes
Conc for Orchestra and 22-24 56 minutes
25-28  76 minutes
29-32 68 minutes

:-)
Nothing like a spin around town,with the windows open,Havergal Brian on the cd player & the bass on,blasting out those heavy HB beats!
It'd take a few circuits,to give 'em the Gothic & you'll get some funny looks from kids! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 16, 2012, 08:41:50 AM
Especially,when you've got a bicycle! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 16, 2012, 11:13:56 AM
http://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/movies/devil-of-a-time-staging-cursed-symphony-20120715-223zu.html (http://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/movies/devil-of-a-time-staging-cursed-symphony-20120715-223zu.html)

Hm! Is this entirely serious? Not sure of the likeness! I suppose they couldn't get Hugh Grant? ;D  And did Olga Pringle REALLY say that?
A cinema release,though! I assume I'm the last to know! :( ;D

Hope the link works! Mine are,all too frequently, more like the missing link :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 16, 2012, 12:37:16 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 16, 2012, 11:13:56 AM
http://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/movies/devil-of-a-time-staging-cursed-symphony-20120715-223zu.html (http://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/movies/devil-of-a-time-staging-cursed-symphony-20120715-223zu.html)

Hm! Is this entirely serious? Not sure of the likeness! I suppose they couldn't get Hugh Grant? ;D  And did Olga Pringle REALLY say that?
A cinema release,though! I assume I'm the last to know! :( ;D

Hope the link works! Mine are,all too frequently, more like the missing link :(
Cilgwyn, have you been hibernating to avoid the rain? This has been around for some months now. Keep up old chap............
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 16, 2012, 01:54:37 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on July 16, 2012, 12:37:16 PM
Cilgwyn, have you been hibernating to avoid the rain? This has been around for some months now. Keep up old chap............
Unfortunately,one of the three other bears,sharing my bed,woke me up,John! ;D Also,the date on the article is pretty new,even if the subject matter IS yesterdays news & believe it,or not :o this really IS my first glimpse of the actor who played Havergal Brian (and yes,I have heard Beethoven's Fifth! ;D)
To be honest,I think he's okay. It could have been worse. They could have chosen Paul Hogan,and maybe that blonde in Crocodile Dundee (his missus,I believe!) as his wife. Mind you,on second thoughts..............? :)
  As to Olga Pringle. I,erm, somehow missed that quote!
If she thinks the Gothic should have been buried in a box,I wonder what she thinks should be done with Das Siegeslied?!!! :o





Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 16, 2012, 03:36:45 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on July 16, 2012, 12:37:16 PM
Cilgwyn, have you been hibernating to avoid the rain? This has been around for some months now. Keep up old chap............
You'll be telling me the Gothic was performed at the Proms,next!

Yeah,right!!! ;D
Now,where's my porridge!!! >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 17, 2012, 03:01:57 PM
I've survived driving round lsitneing to HB on the car CD player. Surprised how good the symphonies sound. Obviously the ones from CDs are good, but even the radio recordings, converted from Mp3 to wav, don't sound too bad (they would sound thin and tinny on a good sound system, but all the background noise in the car covers this up). Plus it's safer than driving with headphones on!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 17, 2012, 03:19:46 PM
I can see you driving through leafy suburbs, HB blasting the silence to pieces...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 17, 2012, 03:46:07 PM
It's nice to know that Havergal Brian's music is being listened to in cars,in Australia. I keep hearing these cars going past,and all I can hear is 'BOOMP! BOOMP! BOOMP! :o If it sounds that loud to me,what it's like inside the car? A few decades & they'll be receiving their first hearing aid!
Still,you're only young once! I only wish I'd had a car to play my Havergal Brian.....in my case......cassettes in! :)
  Incidentally,it just occurred to me. My fathers got a car/radio cassette player. In fact,he may even have one with a cd player,now! Maybe I'll ask him?
They say it's never too late!!! :) When we get into the middle of a small,unsuspecting market town,I'll wind down the window & give the old volume control a quick jab! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 17, 2012, 03:57:37 PM
An idle fantasy,of course. But I could pop one in,with the volume control on low! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mountain Goat on July 18, 2012, 06:18:11 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 17, 2012, 03:46:07 PMI keep hearing these cars going past,and all I can hear is 'BOOMP! BOOMP! BOOMP! :o If it sounds that loud to me,what it's like inside the car? A few decades & they'll be receiving their first hearing aid!

I especially hate being stopped next to these idiots at traffic lights, I can feel my own car shaking. Next time it happens I'll wind down the window and give them a quick blast of Brian - the end of the 5th movement of the Gothic should do the trick!  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 18, 2012, 08:19:17 AM
Why not? Give 'em a taste of their own medicine! But maybe not rap! I must admit I've always fancied doing that,but it's a bit of a problem if you haven't got a car! Maybe I could walk past with a 'boom box'? But what if they're big & I have to run off? (Or,come to think of it, what if they're small? You can't clip 'em round the ear 'ole,now! :o)
  Some of these 'music lovers' :o just seem to drive round and round town,with their windows wide open. They want everyone to hear their lousy taste in music. Not that I don't like 'pop' music,or whatever they call it now;in fact I've got allot in my own collection. The problem is the stuff now is all so commercial,it's all just driven by big money & I can't see it has any musical merit at all! Rap (or hip hop) is one of the worst offenders. Even if it had anything going for it all,when it first began,it seems to me that there are only so many variations on a couple of surly looking blokes chanting misogynistic lyrics about b*****s  & words I wouldn't care to print here,unless I want to get moderated ,or use a heck of a load of ******'s!
  Anyway,enough of that;this is a mother fri**** Havergal Brian thread & he's one fri**** cool dude!!!! :o 8)

My apologies for the bad ***%$@*!!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: petrarch on July 28, 2012, 04:23:12 PM
So I am resuming my listening to Brian, after a hiatus of 8 months (during which this thread grew by an additional ~1300 posts). That interval had nothing to do with Brian's music, or a waning of my interest in it, rest assured, but rather personal hardship. This prevented me from listening to and thinking about music as much as I wanted--the time I spent on those activities during this period was episodic at best, despite the dozens of CDs that were added to my collection and that remain largely unlistened to. But no more!... Let's see how this goes now; the Brabbins Gothic is playing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2012, 04:25:09 PM
Glad to hear you have overcome those difficulties, petrarch (I hope). Enjoy the Brabbins 'Gothic'!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: petrarch on July 28, 2012, 04:32:54 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 28, 2012, 04:25:09 PM
Glad to hear you have overcome those difficulties, petrarch (I hope). Enjoy the Brabbins 'Gothic'!

Thanks. I am enjoying it, and I am happy to say in a manner different than back in late December (much emotional baggage was shed in the last few weeks).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on July 29, 2012, 06:28:31 AM
Quote from: petrarch on July 28, 2012, 04:32:54 PM
Thanks. I am enjoying it, and I am happy to say in a manner different than back in late December (much emotional baggage was shed in the last few weeks).


mm, what was her name?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: petrarch on July 29, 2012, 06:43:31 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on July 29, 2012, 06:28:31 AM
mm, what was her name?

Her name was Helena; she was my mother. I am still quite happily married to the love of my life and soulmate.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 29, 2012, 02:13:19 PM
I had the thought the other day while listening to Vaughan William's 8th Symphony: although HB and VW are very different composers, I wonder if the VW 8 wasn't an influence on HB. Does anyone know if Brian ever heard it?

In 1956 when the VW 8 premiered HB was only up to Symphony No.11; the VW 8 may have influenced him in some of his oddball symphonies (eg 26, 28) and more generally in his other later works with a battery of percussion. VW 's 8th first movement, which he described as "variations in search of a theme" is quite similar to Brian's techniques, and the general ethos of that work, humorous, disjunctive, but ultimately serious and satisfying as a musical work, is very much HB's later style too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 29, 2012, 02:56:47 PM
Interesting post, calyptorhynchus. I personally don't think RVW influenced HB at all. The use of a battery of percussion is something HB shares with other composers of that time, like Shostakovich and Hartmann. But I do feel, like you, a certain affinity between HB 28 and RVW 8, especially in the earlier movements, not the final, Varèse-like one...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: petrarch on August 01, 2012, 11:55:09 AM
I listened to the Gothic twice in the last few days, with a number of additional listenings of fragments. It was an interesting exercise to listen to the work more closely than before. For some reason, there were moments that my ears found rather filmic--on a couple of those, the harmonies and textures really sounded like some film soundtrack I must have heard before--not to mention the various bits that reminded me of Saturn and Neptune, my favorite movements from Holst's The Planets. The choral movements aren't my cup of tea, especially Te ergo, but still there are portions that are not so bad. Oh well, let's see if it continues to mature as well another 8 months from now ;).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 01, 2012, 01:35:33 PM
Your favourite Planets movements are my favourites, too. Plus Uranus, that is... As for the Te Deum, Part 2 of the 'Gothic', it remains a bone of contention for many commentators. The purely-instrumental Part 1 is, by now, seen by most as powerful and adventurous music, but the Te Deum still is a bridge too far. Disorganised, chaotic, bad choral writing - these are a few things you can see cropping up in reviews. As you would expect, I don't share that view. I don't have any problem with Part 2, and never had. The music simply carries me along and I can sense the unity behind it. There is only one passage in the Te ergo which I feel is a bit of a non sequitur, where there is all build-up and no pay-off. But that is all. Hopefully, in 8 months' time, the Te Deum will speak to you more than it does now. And if not - no big deal.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on August 04, 2012, 03:07:08 AM
Brian's Turandot suite was reviewed in BBC's CD review this morning. Not a lot was said but it was fair.
The Prom's Gothic last year does seem to have improved Brian's standing amongst the great and the good which is pleasing.
If you go to the BBC's iplayer you'll find it at about 2hrs 36mins into the show. They reviewed several other less famous british composers; for me Brian stood out along with Eric Chisholm.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2012, 03:20:56 AM
Thanks, Steve! I'll have a listen later today. It's my feeling, too, that Brian is more visible and a bit less under-appreciated, even to the point that people are joking about him on Twitter (even ridicule is publicity).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 05, 2012, 09:46:45 AM
Nice to see Limelight Magazine listing Brian's third symphony as one of the 'Top 12 great symphonies you probably haven't heard'......and so it SHOULD be! "A sprawling & imaginative '55' minutes",it makes a change from the usual choice. Not that there's anything wrong with it (the Gothic) of course!
Must look out for that 'Habanera'! ;D
The  description makes it sound VERY intriguing. I'd want to hear it,if I hadn't!

An interesting list. Benjamin's Symphony is there & Panufnik,William Schuman's third,Rott's,the Korngold......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on August 05, 2012, 11:15:19 AM
The habanera is there right at the start of the first movement; there's a strong hint in the first eight bars and then there it is at bar 9. This, from the HBS newsletter in 1985: "Woven into the gravity of the introduction, by a Brian that I can only imagine with a smirk on his face at the time, is nothing short of a habañera, à la Bizet".

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 05, 2012, 11:59:50 AM
So that's what it is! Doh!* ;D All,you need is Victoria de los Angeles & some cigarette girls! I've only recently been listening to Marston's superb transfer of the wonderful 1911 Pathe complete recording of 'Carmen' (Albeit,wonderful,if you don't mind 1911 Pathe technology! :o).

  Later on,in the same symphony,my untutored ears have also been intrigued by an almost eastern sounding passage. It only lasts a few moments & I will have to listen again,to pinpoint exactly where it occurs. Does anyone know the passage I am referring to? Very curious &,in the context of it's time & where it was written ,rather astonishing!

Update! Listening to the Hyperion cd,now. I'm referring to the Second movement,track 13 (of the cd) at,0:18-0:27,of course. This passage has intrigued me for years.

And then there are those 'barn dances'! :)

(*And there I was thinking it was a load of bull!)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 06, 2012, 08:09:48 AM
I'd call it an HB-nera.


Listened to the passage you find 'oriental', cilgwyn. Well, I think they are (rather curiously-orchestrated) pentatonic scales, which would account for your association.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 06, 2012, 08:44:05 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 05, 2012, 09:46:45 AM
Nice to see Limelight Magazine listing Brian's third symphony as one of the 'Top 12 great symphonies you probably haven't heard....An interesting list. Benjamin's Symphony is there & Panufnik,William Schuman's third,Rott's,the Korngold......

Give us the complete list please  :)  I want to see how many I haven't heard.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 06, 2012, 11:23:59 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 06, 2012, 08:09:48 AM
I'd call it an HB-nera.


Listened to the passage you find 'oriental', cilgwyn. Well, I think they are (rather curiously-orchestrated) pentatonic scales, which would account for your association.
Actually,it sounds more 'Indian'. Like the kind of music that I used to hear,when I was tuning my shortwave radio,or weaving in & out of a radio station I DID want to listen to! I wonder what made Brian think of that? Perhaps he had a shortwave radio too! :)
Actually,I think it just 'came into' his head. I don't think he was trying to throw in some 'world music' (as it's called now). The 3rd symphony is,literally,teeming with all kinds of amazing ideas,one after the other,and it's hardly suprising that something as wild as that would have just popped into his head & Brian thought.'that sounds good!'
One things for sure,it's a very brief & presumably coincidental resemblance. Havergal Brian's 'Vishnu' Symphony (one of Hovhaness's wilder & arguably, better symphonic efforts) it isn't!

Sgt Rock,the list is there on the Limelight Magazine site. I will give you a link that I hope will work (back to my shortwave radio,I fear! :(). Of those mentioned,I haven't heard Kalinnikov's! I gather that if you like Balakirev,Borodin & RK,this one's a treat! Vanhal is another one. I think I have heard the Panufnik years ago,but I'm no expert on his music.
Rott is represented by the BIS recording. No Bax symphony (I would have included his Second!) but Benjamin's is there & I haven't heard that one either!!! :) It's on my 'want to hear' list!

http://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/Article/307642,top-12-great-symphonies-you-probably-havent-heard.aspx
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 07, 2012, 04:14:44 PM
I wasn't sure about the criteria for the Limelight list (only one recording, a few, but rarely heard?) [In fact in Australia we rarely hear any good music on the airwaves or in the concert hall].

Anyway, leaving aside composers such as Magnard, Dutilleux, Lutosławski, Moeran as being too well-known, hear are my ten twelve:

1. Vanhal (agreed, there are about 20-30 symphonies recorded and all are good)
2. Brian (agreed, but not 3, to give someone a good idea of Brian I suggest 8, 16 or 32)
3. Simpson (4, 8, 9 or 10)
4. Diamond (8 or 10, except there's no recording of 10)
5. Haug (3)
6. Madetoja (2)
7. Mathias (3)
8. Nørgård (7)
9. Pettersson (5, 9, 13, 15)
10. Rautavaara (7)
11. Saygun (3)
12 Truscott (his one and only, though we'll probably get more rediscoveries/reconstructions in due course)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 07, 2012, 04:19:08 PM
Oh, (and yes, you can tell I was short of things to do today), here is my version of Malcolm MacDonald's list of Brian symphonies and whether they are top-rate, good, or middling (you can tell I'm more of a fan of the later Brian):

Top-rate: Gothic, 6, 8, 16, 22, 24, 27, 29, 30, 31, 32
Good: 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, 25
Middling: 2, 3, 4, 5*, 13, 14, 26, 28

* only because the words are so terrible
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 08, 2012, 03:55:03 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 06, 2012, 11:23:59 AM
Sgt Rock,the list is there on the Limelight Magazine site. I will give you a link that I hope will work (back to my shortwave radio,I fear! :(). Of those mentioned,I haven't heard Kalinnikov's! I gather that if you like Balakirev,Borodin & RK,this one's a treat! Vanhal is another one. I think I have heard the Panufnik years ago,but I'm no expert on his music.
Rott is represented by the BIS recording. No Bax symphony (I would have included his Second!) but Benjamin's is there & I haven't heard that one either!!! :) It's on my 'want to hear' list!

http://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/Article/307642,top-12-great-symphonies-you-probably-havent-heard.aspx

Thanks for the link. I own eight of them and have ordered two I haven't heard: the Vanhal G minor Bryan g2 (I have the G minor g1) and the Benjamin. Michael Haydn 29 is unfortunately oop and the Gounod doesn't particularly interest me.

Do try to hear that Kalinnikov--although I think his First is even finer--well, melodically more memorable anyway.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 08, 2012, 08:51:40 AM
I tend to take these lists with a pinch of salt;but Brian's 3rd is there (not the usual suspect,even if you like him),the Korngold & Rott certainly deserve better,than they get,Benjamin sounds interesting & I'm going to HAVE to hear that one! The cheap Marco Polo has a good coupling,but I have a feeling buying it is going to be a case of false economy. So I'm putting the Lyrita cd at the top of my shopping list. Vanhal sounds very interesting,but I've spent my current 'quota',so he's going to have to wait a bit!
Bate's 3rd or 4th,probably should have been there & Vandermolen thinks highly of Arnell's third. I have an off air cassette of his Piano Concerto & I was quite impressed by it. This sounds like a back handed compliment,but Arnell certainly knew his Prokofiev!
I would have snuck in Bax's Second,because I think he's underrated & because it might persuade people who have been put off by the more rhapsodic,pictorial Bax,ie The Garden of Fand,or the more ruminative No 3. (I'd include Spring Fire,but it hasn't got a number! :( ;D)

Nice to see Mathias in you're list calyptorhyncus. I like Mathias at his best,but I have been particularly impressed by the symphonies. The Nimbus recordings are marvellous. I remember writing to them about Daniel Jones & they didn't answer! Chandos & Hyperion always do,fair play! Still.maybe they were too busy recording! :)
I will have to investigate some of the other names on your list.

Not sure if I agree with you about your Brian rankings. Not saying you're wrong,just that I don't agree with you about some of them. No 3,in particular,is my all time favourite! Having said that,while I applaud the decision to include one of the 'other' Brian symphonies (not,'that' rather large one!) I do agree that it's not Brian at his most typical & that it's origins as a piano concerto,make it a bit of a problem symphony,in some ways. I love it,but I can imagine some people,who aren't familiar with Brian,sitting there thinking,'Whats are these wierd bits that sound like a concerto & why aren't they in the rest of the symphony?' I personally find it startlingly original,at least for a British composer & it's profusion of garrulous ideas,brings to mind Villa Lobos at his magpie best (choros No 11,for example),although Brian sounds nothing like him. Other people,however,who don't know Brian so well might be more perplexed. In that sense No 6 would probably have been a better choice.
I find you're exclusion of No 10 a little perplexing,however? That one usually gets a top rating from Brian admirers.
Each to his own,though! :)

Must hear those Kalinnikov symphonies,Sarge. The bis cd sounds very tempting. Gliere's Second almost deserves a look in on that list. Very underrated (I like his First,too!).

Nice to see Schuman's third,there!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 09, 2012, 03:26:58 PM
This is a little bit of a pathetic post, I've just been over at the Bruckner thread and people are talking about how they own 20-30 recordings of Bruckner's 8th, this post consists of wining about the technical quality of the only recording of two of Brian's symphonies!

Anyway, has anyone had any trouble with the Naxos Penny recording of 20 & 25. I didn't notice a problem when I played it on my CD player, when I ripped the tracks to mp3s for my iPod I noticed a click at the end of each track (and this recording has multiple tracks within the one movement, grrrr). When I ripped the .wavs off the original to put on a compilation CD for the car I found that there was a burst of electronic noise at the end of each track. I've looked at the tracks in Audacity (a sound editing program) and found they seem to have put a pause at the end of each track, regardless of whether it ends of a movement or not. I suppose I can use Audacity to remove these (and join the multiple tracks up into a single track for each movement), but what a bother.

Anyone else noticed this? I guess the better quality your CD player the more easily it can compensate for this.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 09, 2012, 03:57:11 PM
I had trouble when I burned a cd of that album. Little ticking,or clicking, noises as the cd player moved from track to track. I must admit I put it down to the fact that I am not someone with much aptitude for downloading & burning,or I just need to swat up a bit more on this sort of thing? (No wonder I still use cassettes! :()
Memo:I must get round to it.............

Not wanting to blame my tools,but do the symphonies REALLY need all those tracks,anyway? A bit of a pain if you just want to program in ONE symphony! Not beyond the bounds of possibility,but a little tedious,to say the least!

Incidentally,having only two cds of Bruckner symphonies (the Seventh) I suppose there's not much point me joining that thread! ;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 09, 2012, 05:33:30 PM
Apologies for being so shamefully absent, these past few days. I don't think I encountered any problems when I ripped the 20 & 25 CD, but I'll have a listen again in the morning (it's past 3 AM here). If my rip is flawless, I'm willing to upload it.   As for the ranking of Brian's symphonies, I concur with many of calyptorhyncus's assessments, but not all. Again, my list will follow later today.   A personal note about my absence - I am very very busy with my writing. One excellent development is the following: a short piece (only 200 words) I was invited to write, about Order and Chaos, will be published in a programme booklet of the Concertgebouw in September (one work they'll be playing is Charles Ives' Fourth Symphony). I am rather proud of this, I must admit
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on August 09, 2012, 10:53:12 PM
Track clicking is a problem with quite a few ripped CDs and particularly with naxos whi divide works up more than necessary for most listeners. Editing with Audacity is fiddly and, for some reason, doesn't always resolve the problem. I have learnt to live it, but I imagine many would find that difficult.

My faves are 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 18, 19, 20, 21,27, 30 and 31. The others, even after all this time I've still not learnt properly; which is necessary to make a valid judgement. How anyone can pass even the tiniest comment on a work, by any composer, they have heard only once is beyond me!

Just saying, I loathe stupid critics. Too much coffe this breakfast >:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 10, 2012, 04:36:05 AM
On the train to Amsterdam... As to my favourite Brian symphonies (as distinct from his 'greatest'), mine are: 1, 3, 6, 8, 10, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 22, 27, 30, 31. As to the question of his 'greatest' - difficult. As long as we have so few performances, we simply can't know. The works I listed give me a 'lift', they are strong and varied. Other symphonies also have their very inspired moments, but are less satisfying as a whole.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 10, 2012, 04:52:07 AM
Lists, love lists  8)  Keeping it to ten:

1, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 13, 16, 28, 32


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on August 10, 2012, 07:19:45 AM
Very restrained of you, Sarge, keeping it to ten!

My list is only a little different to Johan's; I'd add 5, 11, 21 and 29, and would replace 31 with 32.

No problem with the 20/25 CD regarding end-of-track clicks - but mine's he original Marco Polo issue. There are some uncalled for clicks in the first movementof 25 though. Almost like playing an LP!

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 11, 2012, 05:22:06 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on August 10, 2012, 07:19:45 AM
Very restrained of you, Sarge, keeping it to ten!

Moderation in all things, sayeth the preacher. I finally took that to heart recently after six decades of wild immoderation  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 11, 2012, 09:14:40 AM
I'll drink to that! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 13, 2012, 08:27:53 PM
Changes are afoot at Unsung Composers. It seems the site will now focus on "Romantic" composers and recordings of radio broadcasts. The archive is still there for the moment.

Will be interesting to see what they regard as "Romantic", will HB make it?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on August 14, 2012, 01:05:18 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 13, 2012, 08:27:53 PM
Will be interesting to see what they regard as "Romantic", will HB make it?

It will be hard to deny HB the status of 'Romantic', but HB fans are a different matter. I'm afraid not many of them will be able to stay active at the UC forum.  ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 14, 2012, 02:52:52 PM
There certainly is a streak of the romantic in Brian. The ambition of the early symphonies & his choice of heroes. The Gothic is a product of late romanticism,in it's steely way,even if it looks further ahead than that period (as well as back!). Parts of 'The Tigers',the Seventh & the Second & third symphony particularly,are very romantic,especially the 'Brucknerian' (well,some people refer to in that way) third. Indeed,the inspiration & mood of the Second strikes me as intensely romantic,even though the music itself is very anstringent,almost dissonant at times.Although,I'm not sure I would class it AS romantic!
Having said that,like Daniel Jones,who's got a similarly romantic streak,he's probably a bit too astringent to fit in with the likes of Raff,Stanford(!),Marx,Wetz,Draeseke,Ropartz,Bainton & some other composers that appear to fit in over there.

I wonder how this will apply to composers who change their style later on? Cyril Scott starts off like an English Debussy or Scriabin,but his late output is very astringent. Even a wildly romantic composer like Schreker got very sinewy in his last years.
Brian goes even further;although,even in his most allusive later symphonies there's always something of the romantic about him,even if isn't always apparent in the music itself.
And what could be more romantic,as the choice of subject matter for an opera,than Faust?

But maybe they're referring to the actual music itself;so the Gothic will be allowed,maybe & the tenth symphony will be shown the door?!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 14, 2012, 07:35:40 PM
Re: my list

I've been lsitneing to No.19 a bit recently, and I might move it up to "very good". Oh a decent recording of it (and all the unrecorded ones!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 15, 2012, 12:16:42 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 14, 2012, 02:52:52 PM
There certainly is a streak of the romantic in Brian. The ambition of the early symphonies & his choice of heroes. The Gothic is a product of late romanticism,in it's steely way,even if it looks further ahead than that period (as well as back!). Parts of 'The Tigers',the Seventh & the Second & third symphony particularly,are very romantic,especially the 'Brucknerian' (well,some people refer to in that way) third. Indeed,the inspiration & mood of the Second strikes me as intensely romantic,even though the music itself is very anstringent,almost dissonant at times.Although,I'm not sure I would class it AS romantic!
Having said that,like Daniel Jones,who's got a similarly romantic streak,he's probably a bit too astringent to fit in with the likes of Raff,Stanford(!),Marx,Wetz,Draeseke,Ropartz,Bainton & some other composers that appear to fit in over there.

I wonder how this will apply to composers who change their style later on? Cyril Scott starts off like an English Debussy or Scriabin,but his late output is very astringent. Even a wildly romantic composer like Schreker got very sinewy in his last years.
Brian goes even further;although,even in his most allusive later symphonies there's always something of the romantic about him,even if isn't always apparent in the music itself.
And what could be more romantic,as the choice of subject matter for an opera,than Faust?

But maybe they're referring to the actual music itself;so the Gothic will be allowed,maybe & the tenth symphony will be shown the door?!! ;D
How VERY dare you
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on August 15, 2012, 12:25:46 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 14, 2012, 01:05:18 PM
HB fans*
* correction: Brianites (with sincere apologies to all of them).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 21, 2012, 02:47:16 PM
Listened to Symphony No.22 this morning, all 9 and half minutes of it. What a symphony! If you played it people and kept any clues as to time out of their sight, I'm sure they'd all think it was over twenty minutes long!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 21, 2012, 02:50:06 PM
No. 22 is one of my favourites - it packs quite a punch. I like it that you have to come to appreciate No. 19 more, a bright and lovely work with a very strong middle (slow) movement.


That's it, for now. I can't wait for the new Dutton CD to arrive on the scene!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2012, 03:19:27 PM
The latest review of 'The Curse of The Gothic':


http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/movies/listen-to-this-20120719-22b5y.html (http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/movies/listen-to-this-20120719-22b5y.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 25, 2012, 02:17:30 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 21, 2012, 02:47:16 PM
Listened to Symphony No.22 this morning, all 9 and half minutes of it. What a symphony! If you played it people and kept any clues as to time out of their sight, I'm sure they'd all think it was over twenty minutes long!
After nearly a year of trying I have finally located the master tapes of the CBS/LSSO 1974 recording of Symphony 22/Psalm 23/Suite No.5 at Sony. As much as I am thrilled with the Curt Timmons vinyl restoration I'm delighted to have found that the original master still exists. There is also a strong possibility that a CD release may soon follow. A record label has said that it is "right up their street" so let's see.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 25, 2012, 02:58:03 AM
Excellent news!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 25, 2012, 12:45:21 PM
Wonderful news,John! :) Now if you can just find us the full score of that bloomin' Prometheus Unbound!

Two HB cds to look forward to,now. Unless Johan knows something 'we' don't! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2012, 03:53:42 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 25, 2012, 12:45:21 PM
Wonderful news,John! :) Now if you can just find us the full score of that bloomin' Prometheus Unbound!Two HB cds to look forward to,now. Unless Johan knows something 'we' don't! ::) ;D
I'll have a look in my sock drawer (or is it draw?).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2012, 04:03:03 AM
By the way, I just returned from a 7 day cruise on the Queen Victoria to Norway  and met a film producer on board (lecturing on classical music) called John Bridcut who has made some great films for the BBC about Elgar, Delius, Britten and Parry. His Parry includes Prince Charles who is a Parry fanatic I understand. He's thinking about a Tippett film which would be good news. I mention HB and he was cool. As it turned out he sang in the Schmidt Gothic and he said it was not particularly pleasurable - he thought it was clumsily written and rather drawn out. Anyway, I hope to help with the Tippett (my personal photos etc) and have promised to send him the HB 10/21 and Schmidt Gothic. Now, if he could be converted........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2012, 04:23:33 AM
Very interesting, John! I still have to see his Delius documentary, but I know the one about Elgar, which was very good. A pity that he sang in 'The Gothic'... If he hadn't, he'd still perhaps be drawn to the music as a listener. Thank you for doing your best on behalf of HB! And good luck with the Tippett venture!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on August 26, 2012, 04:27:13 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 26, 2012, 04:03:03 AM
By the way, I just returned from a 7 day cruise on the Queen Victoria to Norway  and met a film producer on board (lecturing on classical music) called John Bridcut who has made some great films for the BBC about Elgar, Delius, Britten and Parry. His Parry includes Prince Charles who is a Parry franatic I understand. He's thinking about a Tippett film which would be good news. I mention HB and he was cool. As it turned out he sang in the Schmidt Gothic and he said it was not particularly pleasurable - he thought it was clumsily written and rather drawn out. Anyway, I hope to help with the Tippett (my personal photos etc) and have promised to send him the HB 10/21 and Schmidt Gothic. Now, if he could be converted........

He doesn't need to be a convert. He just needs to make the damn film!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2012, 04:35:00 AM
I've emailed him and will speak later this week. If only it were so simple as to "make the damn film" but he will need sponsorship, funding and some sort of outlet. Hopefully the HBS will read this thread and go to John's website. I intend to try to get some leverage out of our meeting. As far as the Norway trip is concerned, I visited Troldhaugen for the 4th time - what a fantastic place for a composr to live. Lucky old Grieg. I recommend it to one and all.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2012, 06:59:45 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 26, 2012, 04:35:00 AM
I've emailed him and will speak later this week. If only it were so simple as to "make the damn film" but he will need sponsorship, funding and some sort of outlet. Hopefully the HBS will read this thread and go to John's website. I intend to try to get some leverage out of our meeting. As far as the Norway trip is concerned, I visited Troldhaugen for the 4th time - what a fantastic place for a composr to live. Lucky old Grieg. I recommend it to one and all.
Well,you can't win 'em all,can you? At least you tried,John! I wish I could bump into a film producer,now & again! Not a sausage here,if you'll pardon the expression! :( Or,at least,nothing I'd care to talk about! Conversely,My dad used to keep bumping into people! I remember I bought a book by Ian Parrott (the composer) about Cyril Scott's piano music. When I showed it to him,he said,casually, 'Oh,I've met him!' On a train,apparently! Gerald Durrell (My Family & other animals) was another fellow train passenger! After that,I gave up showing him my books,unless they were dead. Just in case! ::) As if trains weren't enough,he met them in pubs! George Melly (the jazz/blues singer) and one of 'The Moody Blues' in a pub! (Ray Davies,not Justin Hayward!) He had a holiday house on the mountain. Apparently he liked my dads speaking voice & asked him to read a few lines on their next album (Long Distance Voyager) My dad said,'No,I've got too many commitments!' I said,'I wish I could be offered a part on a Moody Blues album,why did you refuse?' My dad looked at me & said,'Why would I want to be on it? I don't like pop music!' Oh,and Richard Harris,the actor outside a Wimpy's! Apparently Richard Harris was with someone & my dad spoke to him,not Harris,who just looked miserable! ;D He also met the man who inspired the Powell & Pressburger movie 'Ill met by Moonlight!'

He has,however,reassured me that he hasn't met anyone really famous,like Elvis Presley,Tommy Cooper,Cher or Havergal Brian! ;D

Maybe,I should sign up for a cruise,or just get out a bit more! :(

Talk of Grieg,reminds me of Beecham's wonderful recording of 'Peer Gynt'!  I have been posting on the Delius thread,recently & I just 'googled' Troldhaugen. Apparently,Delius visited Grieg there,twice! The website 'The Land of Lost Content' has an interesting page about their friendship. The book by Lionel Carley 'Grieg & Delius: A Chronicle of their Friendship (in letters) sounds interesting,too! Of course,this is a little off topic,so it's off to the Delius thread for me.....but Delius & Brian both had unusually fascinating lives,in their own very different ways,and they were both mavericks!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 26, 2012, 02:45:49 PM
Great about the rediscovered masters of the Symphony No.22 &c. Now I'll have another HB CD to blast around the living room, instead of just blasting it through headphones!

Looking forward to the next Dutton too.

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on August 26, 2012, 03:43:24 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 26, 2012, 04:35:00 AM
As far as the Norway trip is concerned, I visited Troldhaugen for the 4th time - what a fantastic place for a composr to live. Lucky old Grieg. I recommend it to one and all.

A good place for a wedding, too, I'd assume?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 27, 2012, 02:11:17 AM
Quote from: springrite on August 26, 2012, 03:43:24 PM
A good place for a wedding, too, I'd assume?
Absolutely.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 27, 2012, 06:49:19 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 26, 2012, 02:45:49 PM
Great about the rediscovered masters of the Symphony No.22 &c. Now I'll have another HB CD to blast around the living room, instead of just blasting it through headphones!

Looking forward to the next Dutton too.

;D
The Klassic Haus restoration is worth getting as a download in the meantime. Don't count chickens just yet....................
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 28, 2012, 11:07:55 AM
Listening to Brian's Second Symphony,courtesy of 'The Music Art Forum',I can now see why I played my old 'off air' C90 so many times,back in the early eighties. Well,to some degree,anyway! Yes,it's uneven & a little bombastic in places. It's also a bit too long for it's own good;but oh,the good bit's are good. I particularly love that 'theme' (the rather romantic sounding one,near the beginning) & the way it returns,in it's full glory,later on. Wonderful! It really sweeps you along! Also,the 'battle scherzo' which sounds so exciting in this performance. 'Man in his cosmic loneliness'! Wow! That really struck a chord with my youthful mind (I knew I should have joined the Village gang! :() That feeling of desolation & mystery,really got me going! At the same time,there are patches where Brian's muse seems to run a little dry,as if he's not quite sure where he's going with all this! Nevertheless,imho,the good bits definately outweigh the less good bits. In fact,after listening to this performance,in such excellent sound,I'm inclined to put this near the top of my list of Brian favourites! A problematic,but like all the best Brian,strangely compulsive symphony!

I'll put it on again,later! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mountain Goat on August 28, 2012, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 28, 2012, 11:07:55 AM
Listening to Brian's Second Symphony,courtesy of 'The Music Art Forum' [...] in such excellent sound

Is that the Mackerras performance? I don't remember where I got my copy from, but the sound can hardly be described as excellent, so perhaps they have a better copy there! I'll have to download it - then again, maybe it's just my computer speakers that are rubbish  ::)

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 26, 2012, 02:45:49 PM
Looking forward to the next Dutton too.

;D

Is that the one with Symphony No. 13? I hope that's actually going ahead, it's a great symphony which seems to be poorly regarded by some - maybe a decent modern recording is just what's needed to silence the doubters!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 28, 2012, 12:27:22 PM
At UC and now the Art Music Forum member MVS has put up a very clear-sounding recording of the Mackerras Second, better than either mine or Dundonnell's. Recommended. As for the new CD, that has been recorded and will be issued later this year. Symphony No. 13, the Violin Concerto and the Second English Suite will be brought to us in first-rate sound and, hopefully, first-rate performances. A report in the latest HBS Newsletter was positive...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 28, 2012, 01:32:40 PM
Not sure John will ever be impressed,but the AMF 'Das Siegeslied' is reminding me just why I loved this,positively seismic,work to bits as an impressionable youngster! ;D


Regarding the 1966 Sixth (also AMF). I haven't heard this performance before. He takes some of the fast bits at quite a lick! :o The sound is not exactly spectacular,but suprisingly good,imho,for an off air recording,of its time.(Well,I'm impressed! ;D) I wouldn't like to compare it with the famous Lyrita recording,but it's fascinating (& enlightening) to hear another interpretation.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 28, 2012, 11:59:30 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 28, 2012, 01:32:40 PM
Not sure John will ever be impressed,but the AMF 'Das Siegeslied' is reminding me just why I loved this,positively seismic,work to bits as an impressionable youngster! ;D


Regarding the 1966 Sixth (also AMF). I haven't heard this performance before. He takes some of the fast bits at quite a lick! :o The sound is not exactly spectacular,but suprisingly good,imho,for an off air recording,of its time.(Well,I'm impressed! ;D) I wouldn't like to compare it with the famous Lyrita recording,but it's fascinating (& enlightening) to hear another interpretation.
I think you are fighting a losing battle here but I will put the CD on later in the week once I've plucked up enough courage and report back.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 29, 2012, 04:01:47 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 28, 2012, 11:59:30 PM
I think you are fighting a losing battle here but I will put the CD on later in the week once I've plucked up enough courage and report back.
John,prepare to have you're mind blown! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 01, 2012, 02:05:05 PM
I'm listening to the (AMF) Mackerras recording of No 2 again! :o ;D In fact,I can't seem to get enough of this Cinderella of Havergal Brian symphonies,now! Which worries me a little,because no one else seems to share my enthusiasm for it! :( As I have said before,this recording got a lot of play time on my cassette recorder when I was a 'youf'! ;D But then the tape got damaged & the next time I heard it was that awful,flabby Marco Polo recording! :o :( I remember thinking,why oh why,did I like that so much?! The recording I downloaded here helped somewhat,but the AMF download takes me right back to my old cassette,which was a bit more like this!
Mackerras brings a grandeur,a sweep to this symphony which brings out all it's brooding,enigmatic splendour. Wonderful! :)
  I also had a listen to the earlier Leslie Head performance (2nd performance of 3). The sound really does not help it's case;but it's more like the Marco Polo! ;D Although,to be fair (looking at the HBS site notes) this isn't a professional orchestra,so I suppose I should bear that in mind.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 01, 2012, 05:06:40 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 01, 2012, 02:05:05 PM
I'm listening to the (AMF) Mackerras recording of No 2 again! :o ;D In fact,I can't seem to get enough of this Cinderella of Havergal Brian symphonies,now! Which worries me a little,because no one else seems to share my enthusiasm for it! :( As I have said before,this recording got a lot of play time on my cassette recorder when I was a 'youf'! ;D But then the tape got damaged & the next time I heard it was that awful,flabby Marco Polo recording! :o :( I remember thinking,why oh why,did I like that so much?! The recording I downloaded here helped somewhat,but the AMF download takes me right back to my old cassette,which was a bit more like this!
Mackerras brings a grandeur,a sweep to this symphony which brings out all it's brooding,enigmatic splendour. Wonderful! :)
  I also had a listen to the earlier Leslie Head performance (2nd performance of 3). The sound really does not help it's case;but it's more like the Marco Polo! ;D Although,to be fair (looking at the HBS site notes) this isn't a professional orchestra,so I suppose I should bear that in mind.
Of course,there's always the possibility that there's just something in my psyche which keys in with this particular symphony,and that's why it 'works' for me?!
Despite it's astringency,it is,in many ways,a very romantic symphony,but more akin to Manfred than Harold (in Italy!). In this case the doom laden hero is man himself! Furthermore,,as in all the best examples of late romantic symphonies (not saying this is one!) the overall impact of the work is cathartic.

I feel better for having heard it! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2012, 12:26:50 PM
...or was it that Kronenbourg?!! ??? :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2012, 01:12:25 PM
Just in case there is anybody who doesn't know,there is a review of 'Havergal Brian:The Complete Song Book Vol 1' Stone Records,on Musicweb,now! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2012, 01:23:37 PM
I also have a growing fondness for the Second, helped by the 'new' readings by Leslie Head, of which the last one is quite compelling. There is something raw and wild about the Second; the Third, by comparison, is rather 'classical', a much more controlled work. Mackerras has the better orchestra and the better sound, but I like some of the interpretative decisions of Leslie Head a lot.


This morning the latest Newsletter arrived. Three important pieces of news - 1) John Pickard is to conduct Symphony No. 19 in Bristol on December 1st; 2) the 'Gothic' documentary will be televised in the UK by Sky Arts 2 at 8pm on Wednesday 31st October 2012; 3) Symphonies 22-24 have been recorded by Naxos in Moscow by the Russian State Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Briton Alexander Walker.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2012, 01:51:02 PM
Apologies for posting a little too soon,Johan! I was just 'digesting' that review!
Incidentally,I really did post those observations about the Leslie Head performances,far too early! :o I haven't heard the 3rd performance (of the three) yet! Incidentally,I wonder if anyone 'out there' has a tape of the 1st performance? If one exists?
Also,I have to put my cards on the table now,I do his Second allot! :) Hearing the Mackerras recording again in such splendid sound brought it all back to me & why I played it so much as a teenager.

I think calyptorhyncus will be interested in EM Marshall-Luck's review (of the songbook)! Especially,the comparison with Finzi!

I grew up with The original Brian Rayner Cook recording & I must admit,I DO like these songs,although,maybe not the way Stone sings them? ::)

Good news from the 'Newsletter',then! No Sky Arts 2,here,unfortunately! I've got Freeview! :(

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2012, 01:53:06 PM
As I wrote earlier in this thread, I have my difficulties with Stone's voice. Brian Rayner Cook still rules (for me).


"We hear the influence of Finzi in songs such as The soul of Steel but Havergal Brian simply doesn't have the mastery of that great composer" - nonsense. Brian published the song in 1921, before Finzi was 'there' as a composer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2012, 02:00:13 PM
See above post,for most of my reply!
EM Marshall-Luck really doesn't like Stone's voice,does he?! :o I think I will have another crack at the cd,tomorrow,though! Such a pity! It will be interesting to see if another review turns up on Musicweb? It has to be said,Stone's singing aside,EM does seem unsympathetic to these songs. He doesn't mention the Rayner Cook recording. I wonder if he has heard them & whether he would have a more positive response,if he did?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2012, 02:03:02 PM
I'm certain that BRC could have persuaded EM of the merits of (many of) the songs. I must admit that I am, alas, in accord with EM's reservations about Stone's voice. The fact that I hardly return to the CD says it all. I am glad it is there, but I cannot fully enjoy it, either. Which is a pity.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2012, 02:17:51 PM
I had an initial burst of enthusiasm,but I think the excitement of a new recording (of the songs)just got to me! Or maybe I just needed to like it! ;D No,he is a bit wearing after a while! Such a pity! And he's going to give us a second volume!!! :o
Maybe EM wouldn't care for Brian's songs anyway. Unfortunately,for newcomers,I fear this cd doesn't really do as much as it should to further Brian the song writer's cause! :(
Also,I suppose the Rayner Cook selection is,perhaps,(as they say) 'the cream of the crop!'
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2012, 02:21:32 PM
The BRC recording of Brian songs is an absolute winner, in my opinion. Anyone listening to that would get an excellent impression of Brian the song-writer. No, I don't think Mark Stone is exactly aiding the cause, I'm sorry to say.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2012, 02:29:52 PM
If Mark Stone reads EM's review,I wonder what he'll think of it? Will he shrug it off & carry on blustering away? Will he revise his approach,or call it a day?! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2012, 02:33:03 PM
I just left this on Musicweb's Message Board:


I share a lot of the reviewer's reservations about Mark Stone's singing voice; but to conclude that Brian is a rather poor song-writer goes a bit too far. The pioneering recording of (a selection of) Brian songs by Brian Rayner Cook, now available on Toccata Classics, does a much better job of bringing out Brian's qualities in this field, and I urge the reviewer not to dismiss Brian so quickly...


http://members2.boardhost.com/MusicWebUK/ (http://members2.boardhost.com/MusicWebUK/)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2012, 02:56:15 PM
Good! I'll have a look at that in a minute! EM needs to be made aware of the BRC recording,if he isn't already,and if he is,I would have thought he would have mentioned it for comparison purposes?
I just had another look at the old 1983 Gramophone review,when that Magazine was still a 'must buy!' (I couldn't wait to get my hands on it!! :)) Very enthusiastic! The reviewer was a 'TH'!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2012, 03:13:44 PM
I've read you're Musicweb post,Johan. Excellent! I wonder if he will reply? And maybe someone else will rise to Brian's defence! ;D
I like Brian's songs myself. Maybe he's not up there with Finzi or ahem,Franz Schubert ;D,but I know what I like! :) The Shakespeare songs are splendidly tuneful. As you know,I have been known to warble them while washing up! :o And on a more serious level,'The Soul of Steel' and 'The Defiled Sanctuary' are,imho,marvellous songs. As to Masterman! Brian's certainly isn't the first or last composer to set bad poetry and he had the rent to think about,didn't he?!! ;D

Interesting how EM's review contrasts with the very enthusiastic one on the 'Classical Iconoclast' blog,though!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2012, 03:21:44 PM
I find the songs on the BRC CD just as infectious as you, cilgwyn. They often have very haunting refrains, too. Many songs spoke to me very personally during the 1980s, when I was in my twenties.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2012, 03:43:32 PM
I'm going to have to put it on again,aren't I?! :) I don't know about Stone.though? But a side by side comparison of their interpretations may be useful?
Whether or not they are great songs,or not,there is always something special about something you enjoyed when you were young. But,I don't think it's JUST that! Incidentally,I remember MY landlord at the time had the singer Cleo Laine's Shakespeare album (or whatever it's called?). I remember listening to her singing 'When Icicles hang by the wall'. Terrible! Off it went & I can't stand 'scat' singinganyway,even when Ella Fitzgerald did it!

Going on to other youthful favourites. I know what John thinks,but I have to admit,'Das Siegeslied' sounds every bit as thrilling as I remember it in the Poole AMF download! Oh dear,I've said it now!!! :( :o ;D

I also listened to the Maurice Handford performance. He takes this at quite a pace! :o The sound quality didn't put me off,after years of dodgy off air tapes! Fascinating to hear this. The soloist in the second movement is disappointing,though! A bit 'pedestrian' I thought! I need another listen though!
I still preferred it to the Marco Polo,though!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 02, 2012, 03:50:02 PM
I am going to listen to some Brian before turning in... Nos da!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 02, 2012, 04:00:34 PM
A good idea & it IS getting late! :o Nos da!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 03, 2012, 03:48:18 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 02, 2012, 04:00:34 PM
A good idea & it IS getting late! :o Nos da!
And prynhawn da! :) I just don't want it getting too much like the Walton's,that' all! ;D
I think I will brave that Mark Stone cd later. I'd just like to compare some of the interpretations,side by side,just to be sure. I have to say,it doesn't look promising for Mark Stone! :( Which is intriguing,because his cd releases have had some enthusiastic reviews,in IRR Magazine,for example. Not having heard those I can only wonder whether he just had a bad 'day' when he was recording the Brian cd,whether he just has no empathy for Brian's idiom,or whether some IRR critics just have thicker skins than 'we' do? Of course,Musicweb often carries more than one review,so maybe one of their other 'critics' will have a more positive opinion. Rob Barnett springs to mind. I remember he used to write in the British Music Society Journal & Newsletter,back in the 1980's when I was a member. His reviews are usually very detailed & I enjoy reading them;but on the downside,I feel he tends to be a bit too nice,at times. I've bought some cds of obscurities after reading his reviews & ended up wondering what the h*** he saw in them!
Conversely,you can be nasty & vacuous like 'the Hurwitz' (as some people call him) or Andrew Clements (arguably emptier!). Still,I bet Barnett knows about the Brian Rayner Cook recording!!
  In all fairness to EM,he does go into some detail to explain exactly WHY he doesn't like the cd,even going so far as to,justifiably,praise it's physical presentation!(The booklet is excellent!) I can't verify Johan's point about the Finzi-Brian comparison,because I don't really know enough about Finzi. As to not having heard of the Rayner Cook recording (if he hasn't?).If he isn't into Brian,like we are,I think that is understandable. It's not a cd that has been heavily promoted. I actually thought it was 'out of print' until fairly recently. But,to be a well informed critic,he does need to know,if only to get the 'record' straight! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 03, 2012, 06:30:24 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 02, 2012, 02:56:15 PM
Good! I'll have a look at that in a minute! EM needs to be made aware of the BRC recording,if he isn't already,and if he is,I would have thought he would have mentioned it for comparison purposes?
I just had another look at the old 1983 Gramophone review,when that Magazine was still a 'must buy!' (I couldn't wait to get my hands on it!! :)) Very enthusiastic! The reviewer was a 'TH'!
Trevor Harvey I presume. I like him - he gave the LSSO/Bliss Argo LP the thumbs up. I must listen to HB 4. Still working up to it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 03, 2012, 03:05:00 PM
I pretty much agree with the Musicweb review, though without having the technical knowledge of the human voice the reviewer does!

Good riposte by Johan. I was amused by the suggestion of Finzi's influence in 1921. In that year Finzi was a shy 20 year old who'd written nothing and lived in his mother in Harrogate! (Or maybe they'd just moved away from there).

Pleased to hear about the Naxos 22-24 disk. Even if it isn't great at least it will be a Cd quality recording of 24. I hope record producers soon realise that in recording HB disks the best "filler" piece is another HB symphony. They are short enough.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2012, 03:20:07 PM
Finzi living 'in' his mother, age 20... Poor woman.  ;D


I agree with your remark that it will be good to have a CD quality recording of 24 at last.


I took singing lessons when I was in my twenties, so I do have a certain inside knowledge. The reviewer says the things I personally think, too. And I don't like Mark Stone's enunciation either.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 03, 2012, 03:35:12 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 03, 2012, 03:20:07 PM
Finzi living 'in' his mother, age 20... Poor woman.  ;D


The longest human gestation in recorded history   :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 03, 2012, 07:25:39 PM
I'm known as a demon proof-reader of everyone's work but my own.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 04, 2012, 01:19:46 AM
I tried the Mark Stone cd again,last night,as I said I would. I made a particular point of comparing their rendition of Sorrow Song. After a while Stones 'bawling' got a bit too much for me & off it went! :o :(
Brian Rayner Cook stayed on until I went to bed! :)
It struck to me that the only really good thing about the Stone cd is the booklet!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 04, 2012, 01:32:28 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 03, 2012, 03:05:00 PM
I pretty much agree with the Musicweb review, though without having the technical knowledge of the human voice the reviewer does!

Good riposte by Johan. I was amused by the suggestion of Finzi's influence in 1921. In that year Finzi was a shy 20 year old who'd written nothing and lived in his mother in Harrogate! (Or maybe they'd just moved away from there).

Pleased to hear about the Naxos 22-24 disk. Even if it isn't great at least it will be a Cd quality recording of 24. I hope record producers soon realise that in recording HB disks the best "filler" piece is another HB symphony. They are short enough.
Incest is really not a good idea.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 04, 2012, 01:44:35 AM
Womb sweet womb! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 04, 2012, 02:17:00 AM
ATTENTION: MARTYN BECKER
Hi Martyn,
I've tried to reply to a couple of your emails but all of a sudden your email address (the one via the home page of the HBS) is giving me problems. Emails keep bouncing back. Do you have another address? If so please drop me a line. I've got something for you. Thanks.
PS Listened to the 1st movement of No. 4 and then had to give it a rest. It's no better than OK and to be honest am I alone in finding the opening theme really embarrassing? It's trying to be noble and uplifting but comes across as very bad film music. The sort of idea that Korngold would have assigned to the bin. The choral writing is very clumsy. I just don't get it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on September 04, 2012, 08:28:10 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 02, 2012, 02:56:15 PMEM needs to be made aware of the BRC recording,if he isn't already,and if he is,I would have thought he would have mentioned it for comparison purposes?

Before the discussion goes on, it might be as well to point out a minor detail ...

http://www.englishmusicfestival.org.uk/marshall-luck.html (http://www.englishmusicfestival.org.uk/marshall-luck.html)

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 04, 2012, 08:32:39 AM
I had a suspicion the reviewer might be as shown...  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 04, 2012, 08:49:02 AM
Quote from: Albion on September 04, 2012, 08:28:10 AM
Before the discussion goes on, it might be as well to point out a minor detail ...

http://www.englishmusicfestival.org.uk/marshall-luck.html (http://www.englishmusicfestival.org.uk/marshall-luck.html)

;)
Whoa!!!! :D ;D :D Not bad looking for a bloke!!! :o :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 04, 2012, 09:51:22 AM
John's going to love this! ??? :( :D
I'm still counting the 'he's'!!! :o :o

"..he does go into some detail.."
"..he doesn't like the cd,.."
"..he does need to know.."
"..he does assume she's a man! :-[ :o
(etc,etc..)

She Jane,Me Tarzan!!! :( ??? :o

This sorry,story can only get worse!! :( :(

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 04, 2012, 10:04:40 AM
Maybe I'll change my user name to Mr Cilgwyn? Just in case!
There are some bigots out there!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 04, 2012, 10:41:28 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 04, 2012, 09:51:22 AM
John's going to love this! ??? :( :D
I'm still counting the 'he's'!!! :o :o

"..he does go into some detail.."
"..he doesn't like the cd,.."
"..he does need to know.."
"..he does assume she's a man! :-[ :o
(etc,etc..)

She Jane,Me Tarzan!!! :( ??? :o

This sorry,story can only get worse!! :( :(
Her beard ain't up to much is it? One of the ugliest blokes I've clapped eyes on. ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 04, 2012, 01:20:31 PM
 ;D You're sparing my blushes,John! Actually,I think that's how they 'grow' them these days! ;D
For some reason,her coat reminded me of one my mother had years ago. It was made of Moleskin,allot of moleskins actually (Well,it would have to be a b***** big mole,wouldn't it?!) And it was mole coloured,not red,obviously & seem to remember it had a velvet like texture. I think it belonged to an aunt or great grandmother. Not the done thing to wear,these days,of course! But I remember my mother used to go out in it.

There were some very big mole hills in the field behind the house & I used to worry some times,if her shoes were a bit muddy! :o

I think I will have another listen to the Leslie Head Symphony No 2,later? "Raw and wild"?!! :o :)I like that! :) I haven't made a cdr of the third yet,as I was getting a bit low on them,but it sounds like an intriguing contrast!

I'm sorry the AMF Das Siegeslied didn't blow you away,John! Sometimes I get the feeling you'd rather listen to those 'noisy roadworks?!!' :o






Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 04, 2012, 05:09:45 PM
Just another thought on the new Naxos 22-24 disk.

Hope they don't have mutliple tracks within the movements

>:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 05, 2012, 03:14:24 AM
I hope so,too! What a daft idea! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 05, 2012, 05:01:59 AM
Just a note of thanks to MVS who has done a transfer of the Aries Brian 8/14 LP for me. Curt Timmons is declicking it as we speak. I don't expect miracles considering the source material i.e. a vinyl pressing of a tape taken off air but the results should be better than what has been put out there on the internet so far. The Aries Violin Concerto worked out very well so there is reason to be hopeful. I'll keep you posted.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2012, 05:12:11 AM
Good man, MVS. I wonder how far these recordings can be improved... I live in hopes.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 05, 2012, 03:42:05 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 05, 2012, 05:01:59 AM
Just a note of thanks to MVS who has done a transfer of the Aries Brian 8/14 LP for me. Curt Timmons is declicking it as we speak. I don't expect miracles considering the source material i.e. a vinyl pressing of a tape taken off air but the results should be better than what has been put out there on the internet so far. The Aries Violin Concerto worked out very well so there is reason to be hopeful. I'll keep you posted.

Cool, another decent-ish recording. The number of HB symphonies without a decent-ish recording is getting smaller every day.  After the next Dutton and Naxos releases it'll be down to 19 and 26 (by my reckoning). Of course, some of the decent-ish ones could do with improvement.

On another note, I'm always amused by the rapidity of movement in HB. I was listening to No.29 the other day, and following Malcolm MacDonald's account. MM talks about a wonderfully calm and emotionally conclusive coda. If this was any other composer this would last five minutes minimum, with HB's 29 the coda is over in less than 30 seconds!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2012, 11:01:22 PM
I think MM overstates the case for No. 29 (as he does for 'Das Siegeslied, too, perhaps), which to my ears is a lesser work than the symphonies that surround it, but that coda is sublime.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 06, 2012, 03:46:46 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 05, 2012, 03:42:05 PM
Cool, another decent-ish recording. The number of HB symphonies without a decent-ish recording is getting smaller every day.  After the next Dutton and Naxos releases it'll be down to 19 and 26 (by my reckoning). Of course, some of the decent-ish ones could do with improvement.

On another note, I'm always amused by the rapidity of movement in HB. I was listening to No.29 the other day, and following Malcolm MacDonald's account. MM talks about a wonderfully calm and emotionally conclusive coda. If this was any other composer this would last five minutes minimum, with HB's 29 the coda is over in less than 30 seconds!
Just listening to the results achieved thus far on 14. It's very good. I don't know the piece at all but I quite like what I am hearing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 10, 2012, 03:42:37 AM
I've posted the HB Violin Concerto in 3 parts on YouTube using the Klassic Haus restoration of the Holmes performance. Here's the link to the first movement. Find this and you will soon find parts 2 and 3.
http://youtu.be/FA0WqUnkrDk
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 11, 2012, 01:43:08 AM
And now even more competition. According to a post on the AMF 'New release' thread,the Dutton October releases have been announced.....including Havergal Brian's aforementioned Violin Concerto,Symphony No 13,English Suite No 4,and....and,The Tinkers Wedding Overture! I didn't know that one was being included. This should make a VERY nice set indeed! :) A Dutton pre-order,I think & I've just bought the Groves Delius Koanga s/h......(arrived today!)..
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 11, 2012, 01:53:35 AM
Good news! Thanks, cilgwyn!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 11, 2012, 02:17:49 AM
It's not on the Dutton website,yet,of course! It won't be long,though! :) I will be ordering it from their website,because it's something special & to hopefully,help encourage more from the same stable! A premiere (and way overdue) recording of his wonderful Fifth Symphony for example,preferably without Mark Stone! :) & a new recording of No3,would really get me going! :) :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 11, 2012, 02:32:44 AM
I wonder how Tapiola got his information... I think I'll order the CD through the HBS when it's there. Can't wait! (I read somewhere that Sir Charles Mackerras hated The Tinker's Wedding... He still did a very good job with it!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 11, 2012, 02:59:09 AM
Hated it,eh?! :o I'm going to have another listen,later! (If you'll excuse me,I just got the Groves Koanga set s/h & I really can't believe how good this music is!!! :o :)). The selection of music on the cd is very varied. It strikes me that Dutton are getting very good at this!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 11, 2012, 04:24:12 AM
Just corrected an awful blooper in my HB post on the AMF forum in the nick of time. Hopefully,no one saw it! :-[ :o

"We're raving about the Brian cd on the GMG's HB thread right now.......and we haven't even been released yet!!! :-[ :o

Raving? And released from where? oh dear! I know some critics think HB enthusiasts are all a load of head bangers,but this is a step TOO far! In fact,this could have been nearly as excrutiating as Dr Cilgwyn's recent unintentional gender reassignment surgery on EM Marshall-Luck!!! :-[ :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 11, 2012, 05:23:23 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 11, 2012, 05:52:48 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 11, 2012, 04:24:12 AM
Just corrected an awful blooper in my HB post on the AMF forum in the nick of time. Hopefully,no one saw it! :-[ :o

"We're raving about the Brian cd on the GMG's HB thread right now.......and we haven't even been released yet!!! :-[ :o

Raving? And released from where? oh dear! I know some critics think HB enthusiasts are all a load of head bangers,but this is a step TOO far! In fact,this could have been nearly as excrutiating as Dr Cilgwyn's recent unintentional gender reassignment surgery on EM Marshall-Luck!!! :-[ :o
You really are a silly girl.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 11, 2012, 06:17:33 AM
 ??? ::) :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on September 14, 2012, 07:50:52 AM
John, will this restoration of the Syms 8 and 14 appear on Klassikhaus for us all to be able to purchase?  I think number 14 is one of the most characterful and colourful of Brian's symphonies.  I have a sneaking feeling that it sounds like a sequence of several possible openings to a grand, grand symphony but I'm not convinced that Edward Downes really understood Brian's idiom, so I'd be very interested to hear a modern performance.  Let's hope Martyn Brabbins can be interested in including it in a future Dutton issue.  He does seem to be the best thing that's happened to Brian in a while.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 14, 2012, 11:19:52 AM
Quote from: Augustus on September 14, 2012, 07:50:52 AM
John, will this restoration of the Syms 8 and 14 appear on Klassikhaus for us all to be able to purchase?  I think number 14 is one of the most characterful and colourful of Brian's symphonies.  I have a sneaking feeling that it sounds like a sequence of several possible openings to a grand, grand symphony but I'm not convinced that Edward Downes really understood Brian's idiom, so I'd be very interested to hear a modern performance.  Let's hope Martyn Brabbins can be interested in including it in a future Dutton issue.  He does seem to be the best thing that's happened to Brian in a while.
Yes, it will be available early next month. I heard the restorations last week. The artwork is just being done and I hope that Johan will come up with a short sleeve note as he did for the Holmes Violin Concerto (Nudge, nudge). MVS provided a really excellent LP transfer from 2 copies of the Aries LP that he owns. No 8 is better than previous restorations but the tape that Aries used isn't that brilliant to be honest so don't expect miracles - the string tone is a bit smudgy in places and not a lot can be done when the originals aren't pristine. However, No.14 has come up really well and it's a huge improvement when compared to - for example - the upload that agent Herrenberg has sheared with us so on that basis I can recommend it. The quality is similar to the Klassic Haus Holmes transfer. I sent Johan a short snippet and he was enthusiastic. I didn't know 14 before I heard this restoration and I am not a huge fan of Brian's work (heads for cover  :D) but I am very taken with it and really enjoy its Sibelius, Nielsen and Tippett touches here and there. It hangs together and the string writing is far more competent than usual (heads for cover again >:(). I'll post the link on here when it's all ready to go.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 14, 2012, 11:26:12 AM
Quote from: Augustus on September 14, 2012, 07:50:52 AM
John, will this restoration of the Syms 8 and 14 appear on Klassikhaus for us all to be able to purchase?  I think number 14 is one of the most characterful and colourful of Brian's symphonies.  I have a sneaking feeling that it sounds like a sequence of several possible openings to a grand, grand symphony but I'm not convinced that Edward Downes really understood Brian's idiom, so I'd be very interested to hear a modern performance.  Let's hope Martyn Brabbins can be interested in including it in a future Dutton issue.  He does seem to be the best thing that's happened to Brian in a while.
I just noticed that you are a newcomer. Beware - this place is full of loonies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 15, 2012, 06:05:34 AM
I think you (we've? :o) frightened him off!!! :o
Hello Augustus,I'm a fan of No 14,too. It would be great if it could follow No 13 onto cd! :)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mountain Goat on September 15, 2012, 06:08:45 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 11, 2012, 01:43:08 AM
And now even more competition. According to a post on the AMF 'New release' thread,the Dutton October releases have been announced.....including Havergal Brian's aforementioned Violin Concerto,Symphony No 13,English Suite No 4,and....and,The Tinkers Wedding Overture! I didn't know that one was being included. This should make a VERY nice set indeed! :)

Excellent news, I very much look forward to this CD!  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 15, 2012, 06:34:52 AM
A very varied selection! I'm looking forward to the Violin Concerto as I've never been too happy with the Bisengaliev performance. The Holmes,yes! :) According to Johan,Mackerras didn't like 'The Tinkers Wedding',so I must have another listen to that later. And I'm also,rather looking forward to the English Suite No 4,after reading Malcolm MacDonald's tantalising description on the HBS website.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 15, 2012, 08:06:10 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 15, 2012, 06:34:52 AM
A very varied selection! I'm looking forward to the Violin Concerto as I've never been too happy with the Bisengaliev performance. The Holmes,yes! :) According to Johan,Mackerras didn't like 'The Tinkers Wedding',so I must have another listen to that later. And I'm also,rather looking forward to the English Suite No 4,after reading Malcolm MacDonald's tantalising description on the HBS website.
It's a very pleasant, gentle piece. Nothing earth shattering but very much in the vein of the Nursery Suite I always think. It does need a decent recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 17, 2012, 02:56:52 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on 14-09-2012, 21:19:52 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg659288#msg659288)
Yes, it will be available early next month. I heard the restorations last week. The artwork is just being done and I hope that Johan will come up with a short sleeve note as he did for the Holmes Violin Concerto (Nudge, nudge).



Curt wrote to me last night to ask if I could do the liner notes again. I think I'll have more time on my hands once I have finished a rather demanding short story, so - I consented.


(This thread is now 250 pages long...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 17, 2012, 05:23:56 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 17, 2012, 02:56:52 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on 14-09-2012, 21:19:52 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg659288#msg659288)
Yes, it will be available early next month. I heard the restorations last week. The artwork is just being done and I hope that Johan will come up with a short sleeve note as he did for the Holmes Violin Concerto (Nudge, nudge).



Curt wrote to me last night to ask if I could do the liner notes again. I think I'll have more time on my hands once I have finished a rather demanding short story, so - I consented.


(This thread is now 250 pages long...)

You are a very nice man :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 17, 2012, 06:17:57 AM
Over the weekend I thought it was high time to get my HB collection into good order and put it onto a box set of CDs. I was amazed to see what I had in terms of free downloads and restored vinyl. Here we go.
CD 1
Elegy Wright
Faust Prologue Mackerras
Symphony 13 Pope
Symphony 17 Pope
Symphony 23 Goodman
CD 2
Symphony 18 Fairfax
Symphony 19 Canarina
Symphony 24 Fredman
Symphony 32 Head
CD 3
Symphony 26 Handley
Symphony 26 Smith
Symphony 29 Fredman
Symphony 29 Smith
CD 4
Symphony 16 Fredman (Lyrita oops)
Symphony 6 Fredman (another oops)
Symphony 6 Robinson
CD 5
Symphony 30 Lai
Radio interview from 1969
CD 6
Symphony 2 Mackerras
CD 7
Symphony 3 Pope
CD 8
Symphony 4 Poole
CD 9
Symphony 7 Newstone
CD 10
Symphony 8 Schwarz
Symphony 10 Pope (pitch corrected!)
CD 11
Symphony 9 Fredman
Symphony 12 Del Mar
In Memoriam Pickard
CD 12
Tigers orchestral pieces Hager
Symphony 5 Kok
CD 13
Violin Concerto Holmes
Symphony 28 Stokowski (Klassic Haus)
CD 14
Symphony 10 Loughran
Symphony 21 Pinkett (Klassic Haus)
CD 15
Symphony 22 Heltay
Psalm 23 Heltay
Suite No.5 Pinkett (Klassic Haus)
CD 16
Symphony 8 Fredman
Symphony 14 Downes (Klassic Haus)
CD 17/18
2011 Proms Gothic
CD 19/20
Brisbane Gothic
CD 21/22
Schmidt Gothic
CD 23/24/5
The Tigers Friend
Total cost peanuts ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 01, 2012, 11:09:43 AM

The Klassic Haus Brian 8 and 14 is now available here:
http://klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-No--8-No--14.php
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 01, 2012, 11:19:24 AM
Thanks, John. I forgot to announce it here. But - I wrote the liner notes!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 01, 2012, 12:40:48 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 01, 2012, 11:19:24 AM
Thanks, John. I forgot to announce it here. But - I wrote the liner notes!
So I see. Not in Dutch thank goodness. ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 02, 2012, 01:40:15 PM
I've downloaded the new 14/8 disc and have been listening to it.

Certainly a lot easier to listen to 14 than the previously available recording!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 02, 2012, 01:55:07 PM
MacDonald is highly critical of 14. He finds its first half rather laboured and uninspired. I disagree. I find the atmosphere very unified and the whole progression of the symphony quite natural and unforced. I am glad we now have the refurbished version! (I did notice, though, that in Curt Timmon's version the plucked strings in the Coda, when the marching is going on, are less prominent because of the brass...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 02, 2012, 09:30:11 PM
Yep, I've listened to 14 several times and I still tend to agree with MM. In a way it's unfortunate that it's coupled with No.8, as that is a completely successful integrated structure of about the same length (and possibly Brian's greatest symphony), whereas 14 still seems to be between styles, feeling its way towards the later style (which, confusingly, Brian already seems to be approaching in No.8). As someone said of the Shakespeare's early works, "only the later Shakespeare could have written these".
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 03, 2012, 12:29:13 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 02, 2012, 09:30:11 PM
Yep, I've listened to 14 several times and I still tend to agree with MM. In a way it's unfortunate that it's coupled with No.8, as that is a completely successful integrated structure of about the same length (and possibly Brian's greatest symphony), whereas 14 still seems to be between styles, feeling its way towards the later style (which, confusingly, Brian already seems to be approaching in No.8). As someone said of the Shakespeare's early works, "only the later Shakespeare could have written these".
Isn't it strange. I'm no fan of the 8th and really enjoy the 14th.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 03, 2012, 07:35:31 AM
ALERT: at the moment the recording dates in my notes are reversed. No. 8 was recorded in 1971, and No. 14 in 1969...  :-[
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 03, 2012, 10:58:47 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 03, 2012, 07:35:31 AM
ALERT: at the moment the recording dates in my notes are reversed. No. 8 was recorded in 1971, and No. 14 in 1969...  :-[
You just can't get the staff these days can you?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 12, 2012, 06:31:21 PM
Sometimes I give house guests here a blast of Brian to try to spread the word. (Some of our friends are musical types). Of course they respond differently, but one response was very amusing: I explained how Brian composed most of his symphonies at an advanced age and this person said "sounds like one of the best results of the British Old Age Pension"!

(Any news on when the Dutton 13 is coming out?)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mszczuj on October 26, 2012, 01:37:41 AM
I am just starting my adventure with Brian symphonies. Alas I have some problems with finding some of them. There was possibility to download Brian symphonies from Unsung Composer site, but now I can't find them. I tried to find some information about possible downloads in this thread but it is too huge and didn't manage. So if anyone of you  would know link to Symphony No.5 or to Symphony No.28 and would be so kind to send it to me it would be highly appreciated.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 26, 2012, 01:49:19 AM
Hi! I'm on the road (on the train, to be more precise). If John Whitmore isn't here earlier, I can help you tomorrow.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 26, 2012, 05:20:33 AM
Quote from: mszczuj on October 26, 2012, 01:37:41 AM
I am just starting my adventure with Brian symphonies. Alas I have some problems with finding some of them. There was possibility to download Brian symphonies from Unsung Composer site, but now I can't find them. I tried to find some information about possible downloads in this thread but it is too huge and didn't manage. So if anyone of you  would know link to Symphony No.5 or to Symphony No.28 and would be so kind to send it to me it would be highly appreciated.
I would suggest joining the Art Music Forum. They've got the lot there & a friendly 'crowd'! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mszczuj on October 26, 2012, 11:37:24 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 26, 2012, 05:20:33 AM
I would suggest joining the Art Music Forum. They've got the lot there & a friendly 'crowd'! :)

I have joined it but haven't found any Brian. There was another forum like that with the great number of historical recording uploads - but I don't remember the name.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mszczuj on October 26, 2012, 11:37:54 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 26, 2012, 01:49:19 AM
Hi! I'm on the road (on the train, to be more precise). If John Whitmore isn't here earlier, I can help you tomorrow.

Great!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 26, 2012, 01:23:15 PM
Quote from: mszczuj on October 26, 2012, 11:37:24 AM
I have joined it but haven't found any Brian. There was another forum like that with the great number of historical recording uploads - but I don't remember the name.
The folders are all there under A-Z! Go to the section 'Downloads' & then click on 'British & Irish Music'. The link is at the bottom of 'Page 3'!!
If they are NOT there I'm probably hallucinating allot of otherwise unobtainable downloads & cdrs;so I hope they're there!!! :o

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on October 26, 2012, 01:26:25 PM
November release:

(http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/prodimages/7296.gif)

The Tinker's Wedding: Comedy Overture (1948): Allegro vivace e giocoso

Violin Concerto in C major (1934-35) LMA
i. Allegro moderato e brio – Adagio – Lento
ii. Lento – Grazioso e semplice e poco più movimento – Lento
iii. Allegro fuoco – Allegro moderato – Lento – Cadenza – Allegro con fuoco

Symphony No.13 in C major (1959)*: Adagio – Andante moderato ma marcato – Andante con moto – Adagio –
Più movimento ma sostenuto – Adagio –
Allegro vivo e ritmo marcato molto e leggiero – Moderato

English Suite No.4 ('Kindergarten') (1921)**
i. Thank You
ii. Where is He?
iii. Something – or Nothing
iv. The Man with a Gun
v. Jingle
vi. The Lame Duck
vii. Gentle Bunny
viii. Death of Bunny
ix. Ashanti Battle Song

LMA Lorraine McAslan (violin)
Royal Scottish National Orchestra
Martyn Brabbins (conductor)

* World premiere recording
** First digital recording

Recorded: RSNO Centre, Henry Wood Hall, Glasgow, 31 May & 1 June 2012

CDLX 7296

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 26, 2012, 01:47:51 PM
An intellectual reaction,now: Yipeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! :)
:)

Thanks for the update Albion!
I note Dutton's usual interesting artwork & the music chosen,for the release,is a fascinating & varied selection.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 26, 2012, 01:52:17 PM
Quote from: mszczuj on October 26, 2012, 01:37:41 AM
I am just starting my adventure with Brian symphonies. Alas I have some problems with finding some of them. There was possibility to download Brian symphonies from Unsung Composer site, but now I can't find them. I tried to find some information about possible downloads in this thread but it is too huge and didn't manage. So if anyone of you  would know link to Symphony No.5 or to Symphony No.28 and would be so kind to send it to me it would be highly appreciated.
You can get Symphony 28 coupled with the wonderful Holmes recording of the Violin Concerto from here:
http://www.klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Violin-Concerto-Symphony-No--28.php
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 26, 2012, 02:44:20 PM
On my way back again from Amsterdam to Delft. Thanks, Albion, for the info
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mszczuj on October 26, 2012, 03:37:47 PM
So I have listened to the Gothic for the 3rd time, and to the both 2nd and 3rd Symphonies for the 1st and for the 2nd time.

I was not very convinced before/ Now it begins to work, he is not so exciting to me as Vermeulen or Casella, but I start to find a pleasure in being in this music world. I don't see the ideas yet (nor the story) but I can wait for them in this ambient.  So now I must spend some time in the instrumental parts of the Gothic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 26, 2012, 03:40:00 PM
As I said before,the Brian downloads ARE there! Go to the 'Downloads' section,then click on 'British & Irish Music' & go to 'Page 3' (on the AMF!! ;D). If the link is not there I'm obviously hallucinating allot of otherwise unobtainable downloads & I might just have to see my GP!! :o :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mszczuj on October 26, 2012, 04:11:03 PM
I can't see nothing about Brian there. Probably I must made 10 posts to become the 2nd level user first. But there is a link in the first post of the thread. Unbelivable!

Thank you very much!




Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 26, 2012, 05:02:23 PM
This is,apparently,regarded as THE unofficial Havergal Brian thread. The HB Society webmaster uses it,as a matter of fact & Johan is 'the man',if you have a HB query! John Whitmore played in the world famous LSSO recording of Symphonies 10 & 21,no less! (The first ever commercial recording of HB). Dundonnell,who posted allot here,went away & has now,hopefully,returned,was actually the ONE who first alerted the foremost HB expert,Malcolm MacDonald to the composer,back in the 1960s,when he was just being rediscovered.
And me...................I find HB a very satisfying composer to listen to & I just post here! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on October 26, 2012, 05:06:14 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 26, 2012, 05:02:23 PM
This is,apparently,regarded as THE unofficial Havergal Brian thread. The HB Society webmaster uses it,as a matter of fact & Johan is 'the man',if you have a HB query! John Whitmore played in the world famous LSSO recording of Symphonies 10 & 21,no less! (The first ever commercial recording of HB). Dundonnell,who posted allot here,went away & has now,hopefully,returned,was actually the ONE who first alerted the foremost HB expert,Malcolm MacDonald to the composer,back in the 1960s,when he was just being rediscovered.
And me...................I find HB a very satisfying composer to listen to & I just post here! ;D

This thread never ceases to amaze me.  Come to GMG, and you'd think that Brian was the most highly regarded composer in the world.   But you have just now confirmed my suspicion, that every living person who likes Brian is participating in this thread.   :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 26, 2012, 05:16:26 PM
Indeed!! I'm by no means completely uncritical,but I do find the man & his sound world intriguing!
The amount of post here is astonishing. Poor old Benjamin Britten,eh?!! Maybe,I should revive his thread with a post or two! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 27, 2012, 12:08:20 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 26, 2012, 05:02:23 PM
This is,apparently,regarded as THE unofficial Havergal Brian thread. The HB Society webmaster uses it,as a matter of fact & Johan is 'the man',if you have a HB query! John Whitmore played in the world famous LSSO recording of Symphonies 10 & 21,no less! (The first ever commercial recording of HB). Dundonnell,who posted allot here,went away & has now,hopefully,returned,was actually the ONE who first alerted the foremost HB expert,Malcolm MacDonald to the composer,back in the 1960s,when he was just being rediscovered.
And me...................I find HB a very satisfying composer to listen to & I just post here! ;D
Autographs provided at a reasonable fee :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 27, 2012, 12:18:36 AM
Quote from: mszczuj on October 26, 2012, 04:11:03 PM
I can't see nothing about Brian there. Probably I must made 10 posts to become the 2nd level user first. But there is a link in the first post of the thread. Unbelivable!

Thank you very much!
I posted the link for Symph 28 earlier. If you go to this link:
http://www.klassichaus.us/
you will also see a tab for Havergal Brian. Here you will get four very good restorations at $5 a go (around £3.50). Violin concerto and Symph 28; Symphs 10 and 21; Symphs 8 and 14; Symph 22 and Psalm 23. There's also link to a LSSO pdf with info about the LSSO recordings. Maybe you should download that to start with, free of charge, and have a read. I'm sure that Johan will help to direct you to some excellent online freebies when he returns from his travels. Most HB symphonies are out there.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 27, 2012, 02:49:01 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 01, 2012, 11:09:43 AM
The Klassic Haus Brian 8 and 14 is now available here:
http://klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-No--8-No--14.php

I ordered it right after I read your post but it just arrived today. Not Klassic Haus's fault: they dispatched it almost immediately but it got hung up somewhere between Chicago and Germany (the trail went dead as soon as it entered the Chicago mail distribution facility). Anyway, I'm happy now, and listening to it: sounds wonderful (well, as wonderful as I can imagine given the source).

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 27, 2012, 06:13:06 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 26, 2012, 05:02:23 PM
This is,apparently,regarded as THE unofficial Havergal Brian thread. The HB Society webmaster uses it,as a matter of fact & Johan is 'the man',if you have a HB query! John Whitmore played in the world famous LSSO recording of Symphonies 10 & 21,no less! (The first ever commercial recording of HB). Dundonnell,who posted allot here,went away & has now,hopefully,returned,was actually the ONE who first alerted the foremost HB expert,Malcolm MacDonald to the composer,back in the 1960s,when he was just being rediscovered.
And me...................I find HB a very satisfying composer to listen to & I just post here! ;D

Yes...this MAY be my one qualification for fame ;D.....although I AM working on others ;D ;D

Had it not been for my alerting Malcolm to the (then) existence of this "daft old chap" who had written "all these symphonies"............ Who knows ??? ???

Actually...I think that this should qualify me for FREE copies of all HB cds from Dutton, Klassic Haus, Marco Polo et al and honorary Life Membership of the HB Society and a knighthood ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 27, 2012, 06:18:15 AM
Recognition for your sterling service to the Brian cause is long overdue, Colin!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 27, 2012, 06:27:00 AM
Actually I will forego all of these well-deserved awards and accolades in return for an absolute commitment from either Dutton or Marco Polo/Naxos to record Symphonies Nos. 5, 14, 19,26,27,28 and 29 within the next five years ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 27, 2012, 06:31:30 AM
A characteristically selfless sentiment with which I concur whole-heartedly.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on October 27, 2012, 07:02:39 AM
Dutton seem to be making some prescient repertoire choices in terms of the broadest appeal, mixing works in various styles to give a nicely rounded picture of Brian's output - the ebullient Tinker's Wedding overture, the ripely 'romantic' Violin Concerto, the quirky English Suite No.4 and the more challenging Symphony No.13. It looks, fingers crossed, as though Martyn Brabbins is clearly committed to the cause ...

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 27, 2012, 07:30:58 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 27, 2012, 06:13:06 AM
Actually...I think that this should qualify me for FREE copies of all HB cds from Dutton, Klassic Haus, Marco Polo et al and honorary Life Membership of the HB Society and a knighthood ;D ;D

Sir Colin II (to differenciate you from the other Sir Colin of musical fame)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 27, 2012, 07:33:55 AM
That would do nicely ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mszczuj on October 28, 2012, 04:59:31 AM
Greetings from the middle of Te Deum!

Thank you all for the help! Without the illusion of completness I probably wouldn't be sufficiently patient to listen to this music enough to begin to like it.

What I really like in the Gothic (so far) is that nothing is obvious in it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2012, 05:02:35 AM
Glad to be of service. And yes - the Te Deum is utterly unpredictable and still it hangs together, especially after a few listenings. And it feels rather short, for all its length, because it is so varied.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 28, 2012, 09:34:31 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 27, 2012, 02:49:01 AM
I ordered it right after I read your post but it just arrived today. Not Klassic Haus's fault: they dispatched it almost immediately but it got hung up somewhere between Chicago and Germany (the trail went dead as soon as it entered the Chicago mail distribution facility). Anyway, I'm happy now, and listening to it: sounds wonderful (well, as wonderful as I can imagine given the source).

Sarge
No 14 is especially good. Glad it arrived eventually!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on October 28, 2012, 11:00:00 AM
I completely agree with John; been listening to no. 14 for the last year or so, off and on, and it's certainly one of my favourites. (29 is another one.)

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 28, 2012, 04:56:56 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on October 28, 2012, 11:00:00 AM
I completely agree with John; been listening to no. 14 for the last year or so, off and on, and it's certainly one of my favourites. (29 is another one.)

;)
Ah....so that means that the HB Society will be helping to fund a recording of Symphonies Nos. 14 and 29 coupled together, does it ;D ;D

However....at 24 and 17 minutes respectively that leaves plenty of room for more :) Nos. 27 and 28 would fit on too.....or replace No.27 with No.5 "Wine of Summer" and you get a really well-balanced disc: early/mid-period/later Brian all in contrast to each other.

There you go...four of the "missing" Brian symphonies(5; 14; 28; 29) on one well-packed disc :) :)   That would leave only Nos. 19, 26 and 27 to go :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on October 29, 2012, 01:07:01 AM
 ???

Hi Colin.

Wow, that's some extrapolation! If only it were true...  No. 13 (one less than 14) appears on the new Dutton, and one of the unrecorded Brian symphonies you mention (no. 19) gets its public premiere on Saturday December 1st, in Bristol. The Bristol University Symphony Orchestra will be conducted by John Pickard - their In Memoriam from January is streamable from the HBS website. They are also doing Walton 1, so a great evening in prospect. Maybe there should be some kind of gathering...

Another Brian event coming this week for those of you that have access to the Sky Arts 2 channel: the documentary 'Curse of the Gothic Symphony', about the staging of the Gothic in Brisbane in 2010 airs at 8pm on Wednesday 31st.

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2012, 01:48:03 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on October 29, 2012, 01:07:01 AM
???

Hi Colin.

Wow, that's some extrapolation! If only it were true...  No. 13 (one less than 14) appears on the new Dutton, and one of the unrecorded Brian symphonies you mention (no. 19) gets its public premiere on Saturday December 1st, in Bristol. The Bristol University Symphony Orchestra will be conducted by John Pickard - their In Memoriam from January is streamable from the HBS website. They are also doing Walton 1, so a great evening in prospect. Maybe there should be some kind of gathering...

Another Brian event coming this week for those of you that have access to the Sky Arts 2 channel: the documentary 'Curse of the Gothic Symphony', about the staging of the Gothic in Brisbane in 2010 airs at 8pm on Wednesday 31st.

;D
Can you do a deal to get the 19th streamed? That would be a nice addition to the collection. The last recording they made was very good indeed in excellent sound. I captured it on Audacity for a CD transfer with super results. Can't imagine what they will make of Walton 1 though. Very difficult. Final point - does anyone out there have any more Aries LPs that could be restored? I would be very interested to do some more.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2012, 06:57:13 AM
Apparently Naxos was expecting to receive the edited tapes from the recording in Moscow in late August of

Symphony No.22
Symphony No.23
Symphony No.24
English Suite No.1


Symphony Orchestra "New Russia" conducted by Alexander Walker (rather than the Russian State Symphony Orchestra, as previously reported)

around now (late October) and may indeed already have done so ???

http://havergalbrianproject.vpweb.co.uk/News.html (http://havergalbrianproject.vpweb.co.uk/News.html)

Naxos are planning to release the disc sometime next year. We must remain hopeful that the performances are worthy of the composer. Alexander Walker will have worked hard to achieve this but are the Russian musicians up to it ??? We shall see :)  But if they are then Naxos could use them again for the recording I suggest ;D ;D

(Odd...first Gary Walker and now Alexander Walker ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2012, 07:14:34 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 29, 2012, 06:57:13 AM
Apparently Naxos was expecting to receive the edited tapes from the recording in Moscow in late August of

Symphony No.22
Symphony No.23
Symphony No.24
English Suite No.1


Symphony Orchestra "New Russia" conducted by Alexander Walker (rather than the Russian State Symphony Orchestra, as previously reported)

around now (late October) and may indeed already have done so ???

http://havergalbrianproject.vpweb.co.uk/News.html (http://havergalbrianproject.vpweb.co.uk/News.html)

Naxos are planning to release the disc sometime next year. We must remain hopeful that the performances are worthy of the composer. Alexander Walker will have worked hard to achieve this but are the Russian musicians up to it ??? We shall see :)  But if they are then Naxos could use them again for the recording I suggest ;D ;D

(Odd...first Gary Walker and now Alexander Walker ;D)
I see no reason why they shouldn't be. They had 4 hours of rehearsal and none of the music is difficult for pro musicians. Most of it is sight readable. It's more to do with whether or not the conductor is up to it / interested in the music and how he engages the players. That's usually the problem.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2012, 07:37:54 AM
I get the impression that Alexander Walker is very keen on the music and, if he has mastered the idiom, then his experience with Russian orchestras and his fluent command of Russian should help him to communicate his intentions :) So...the omens are looking good ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2012, 07:51:29 AM
We'll just have to wait and see...  :o  First on the agenda - Symphony No. 13, English Suite No. 4, The Tinker's Wedding, the VC...  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2012, 08:37:23 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2012, 07:51:29 AM
We'll just have to wait and see...  :o  First on the agenda - Symphony No. 13, English Suite No. 4, The Tinker's Wedding, the VC...  :)
I bet the violin concerto will be good. She's a fine player.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2012, 09:09:32 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 27, 2012, 12:08:20 AM
Autographs provided at a reasonable fee :D
Going...going...gone!!!
You,never know,if this current Brian revival takes off,you could be a very rich man,John!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hemmesjo on October 29, 2012, 09:31:44 AM
Looking for a little advice.  I was all set to purchase the new Dutton Brian disc as well as several others directly from Dutton until I noticed the VAT was not removed.  I made note of that on my order and sent an email.  Dutton refuses to waive the VAT and I'm not about to pay it since I live in the US.  From whom would you suggest I purchase?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2012, 09:57:20 AM
Quote from: hemmesjo on October 29, 2012, 09:31:44 AM
Looking for a little advice.  I was all set to purchase the new Dutton Brian disc as well as several others directly from Dutton until I noticed the VAT was not removed.  I made note of that on my order and sent an email.  Dutton refuses to waive the VAT and I'm not about to pay it since I live in the US.  From whom would you suggest I purchase?

Thanks.
Amazon US is probably the place to go.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2012, 12:06:32 PM
I have just ordered the Klassic Haus restoration of Symphonies Nos. 8 and 14 :)

I would have ordered the Violin Concerto as well but I see that it is coupled with the Stokowski version of Symphony No.28 :o I fully accept that the Stokowski is the only performance currently available but it was such a manifest disaster that I cannot see how perpetuating its existence is doing the symphony any favours ::)
I certainly could not listen to it without a feeling of anger, annoyance and frustration :( :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2012, 12:09:49 PM
I think the Stokowski performance is, to coin a phrase, a mitigated disaster. Where it sometimes goes wrong is in the tempo and the dynamics. I find it enjoyable all the same...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2012, 12:42:37 PM
Yes......but that is because you know the work from the score, Johan. You can therefore identify where Stokowski goes wrong and conceive what the work should sound like.

For someone coming new to the work the Stokowski "interpretation" is all that they will have.....and what they will get is a serious misrepresentation which, at times, renders Brian's frequently difficult textures almost completely unintelligible and is a distortion of what Brian meant.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2012, 12:45:31 PM
I know the work from Malcolm...  ;) But you have a point, Colin - I can live with the interpretation because I silently correct what goes awry. A newcomer cannot do that.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2012, 01:16:22 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 29, 2012, 12:06:32 PM
I have just ordered the Klassic Haus restoration of Symphonies Nos. 8 and 14 :)

I would have ordered the Violin Concerto as well but I see that it is coupled with the Stokowski version of Symphony No.28 :o I fully accept that the Stokowski is the only performance currently available but it was such a manifest disaster that I cannot see how perpetuating its existence is doing the symphony any favours ::)
I certainly could not listen to it without a feeling of anger, annoyance and frustration :( :(
It's a cheap as chips. Solution - buy it and don't play the 28th :D PS I don't have a problem with Stokowski to be honest. Even the over use of percussion (could be the recording, not the conductor) is all good fun. If you can tolerate the LSSO you should be OK with Stokey - far superior.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2012, 01:21:32 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 29, 2012, 12:42:37 PM
Yes......but that is because you know the work from the score, Johan. You can therefore identify where Stokowski goes wrong and conceive what the work should sound like.

For someone coming new to the work the Stokowski "interpretation" is all that they will have.....and what they will get is a serious misrepresentation which, at times, renders Brian's frequently difficult textures almost completely unintelligible and is a distortion of what Brian meant.
By the way Colin I saw your Bryan Kelly posts - now he was a great bloke to meet and work with!! Fine conductor. Had good parties as well. I uploaded a rehearsal of his New Orleans Suite onto Arts Forum. Not very polished but listenable.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 29, 2012, 01:24:34 PM
I've just ordered my copy of the new Dutton (Vlon Conc, S 13 &c) directly from their website.

O I wonder once we five or six  :D have ordered our copies how many more they will sell.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2012, 01:51:43 PM
Ha!


I am going to pre-order through the HBS...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hemmesjo on October 29, 2012, 01:53:24 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on October 29, 2012, 09:57:20 AM
Amazon US is probably the place to go.

They're listed at amazon US as unavailable.  I couldn't find them listed at amazon.uk, presto or mdt.  Isn't anyone in the UK selling them other than Dutton?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2012, 02:08:28 PM
The Brian hasn't been released yet. That may be the reason why it isn't listed at other sites than Dutton (I don't know what else you want to have...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2012, 02:47:29 PM
I'm sure it will appear elsewhere before long! Presto are usually fairly quick on the uptake. In fact,their site is often the first place I'll see a pre-release cd listed! And then there is HMV,who tend to be a bit slower to list,but always used to have new Dutton cds at a special offer price & post free! They even had Boughton's 'The Queen of Cornwall' once,a 2cd set,for £11.99! I like Boughton & like a fool I resisted! :( Not sure if they do it now,though?!! Their search facility is not for the faint hearted,mind!! However,when it's something really special like this I usually buy directly from Dutton (also,their Holbrooke & Bate releases).....but then I'm in Wales,of course!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2012, 03:50:11 PM
I have ordered direct from Dutton :)  The Arnell, Alan Bush and Arnold Bax etc cds as well :)

At £9.99 each cheaper than Presto ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2012, 04:54:35 PM
And,hopefully,with the additional benefit of encouraging them to record more!!! :) (I was of course,partly, responding to hemmesjo,who is buying from the US!)
I have also bought the odd cd directly from Chandos,if it's something VERY special,or of outstanding interest to me! But,having said that,I usually buy Chandos cds from Amazon sellers! Chandos of course give you points towards a free cd,don't they....so,if they hurry up & bring out something astounding,I might finally get my 'freebie'! Holbrooke's 'Apollo & the Seaman',The Bells,Queen Mab or some Daniel Jones,might just tempt me! Sadly,of late,their output seems to have become more predictable. I don't even look at their ads much now. It's either Cpo,Dutton or Naxos! :( Of course,they have had allot of bad luck with their star conductors,so,it's,obviously, not all their fault.

Maybe their upcoming release/recording of Raff 2,might do it for me?!! ::)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 29, 2012, 05:03:41 PM
Agree about Chandos....and Bis seem to be going the same way :( Who wants to buy another Tchaikovsky 5th or whatever released by Bis when there are enough classic recordings already available ??? ???  Oh well....obviously some people do ::)

There should be a blanket ban on all new recordings of Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky and Mahler for the next two years ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 30, 2012, 01:48:06 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 29, 2012, 05:03:41 PM
Agree about Chandos....and Bis seem to be going the same way :( Who wants to buy another Tchaikovsky 5th or whatever released by Bis when there are enough classic recordings already available ??? ???  Oh well....obviously some people do ::)

There should be a blanket ban on all new recordings of Brahms, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky and Mahler for the next two years ;D ;D
I just received a double CD of Dvorak 9/Cello concerto for review. It's amazing. Probably the worst recording I've heard. It's so closely mic'd that every little movement of each player is captured and there's a loud sniff every 10 seconds. Lots of knob twiddling and every section sounds mixed, artificial and overdubbed. Phase Four but worse. What gets me is that Mercury were producing fabulous recordings (ditto Everest) in the late 1950s with a 3 mic set up and over 50 years later things are worse. I wonder if some of the engineers are Pop music trained. For an EMI product this is a disgrace and I don't know how Pappano has allowed it to be released.  Orchestras don't sound like this!! I don't know what the playing is like because it's unlistenable. Actually that's my MusicWeb review written ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 05:14:43 AM
I bought some of those old Everest & Mercury recordings recently. They are marvellous. Crystal clear & you can hear every note!
Regarding Dvorak! A loveable,endearing composer if ever there was,& definately not HIS fault (or Mahler's!),but only a few months ago I read another review of a new recording of Dvorak's ninth symphony,which came to the conclusion that this was probably the best recording of the symphony ever! If I had a pound (as they say!) for every review of a new recording of a warhorse that is the best one ever,I would be a very rich man,by now!

Sometimes the reviewers don't help! :(

The Symphonie Fantastique is another one. I LOVE it,but if I bought every one of the recordings that tumble out per month I would need to build an extension to put them in! How the reviewers enthuse over a new recording that offers some astounding new insight! And every other month it seems,another 'gimmick'. I think one recording used pianos. Do I REALLY need it?!! Of course,one plus point about this symphony is that all the bizarre orchestral effects Berlioz uses mean that buying a different recording CAN be fun! Ansermet's creepy bells for example & I rather like Martinon's underrated (emi) very french sounding orchestra. In fact,I think I've got all the famous ones,right back to the first ever recordings & some period orchestrations! But it's got to the point where,interested as I am in Berlioz's wacky creation,I 'm starting to think DO I really need this new recording? Does it really offer any astonishing new insight that Munch,Beecham,Paray,Davis,Fried,Beecham,Bernstein,Gardiner,Monteux,Martinon,Markevitch,etc,don't?!! Quite frankly,if I was really paranoid,I might even start thinking the record labels were taking us all for a bunch of suckers!

Enough IS enough!!!

NB: Sensible people like John probably save allot of dosh & stick to Beecham! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 30, 2012, 05:51:05 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 05:14:43 AM
The Symphonie Fantastique is another one.  I LOVE it

I understand you're a homebody who rarely ventures beyond the Composers board  ;D   But I think you might be interested in the upcoming Blind Comparison featuring the Symphonie fantastique in the Great Recordings and Reviews board. I'm sure Daniel would love to have you take part. Johan's already committed to it. Check this thread if you want to sign on.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21089.msg670767.html#msg670767

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 06:16:00 AM
This is what comes of ranting!! :( ;D To be honest,without the big letters on the front I probably wouldn't have a clue which was which! :( ;D Actually,I don't normally invest in multiple recordings. Like Dundonnell,it's expensive & life is too short! But the wierd orchestral effects mean that even a layman like me can enjoy some of the more obvious differences.....especially in those 'BONG! BONG! BONG! bits.........
Not too mad on quiz type things,either so I may respectfully decline!
A blonde quiz show hostess may have helped once,but I'm too old now!! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 30, 2012, 06:49:28 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 06:16:00 AMn those 'BONG! BONG! BONG! bits.........
Not too mad on quiz type things,either so I may respectfully decline!

Well, it isn't a quiz. No guessing required. You simply listen to clips from recordings and let us know which you prefer, from favorite to least favorite. There isn't even a requirement to explain your choices (although most participants write something). There are usually three rounds, each round eliminating a number of recordings which are then revealed. It's fun....and it sometimes challenges long-held beliefs (many a famous recording withers when heard blind  ;D  )

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 30, 2012, 06:54:31 AM
From my experience both inside and outside of music forums I have come to the conclusion that the classical listening world divides into those who prefer to stick mainly to composers they know-Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Berlioz, Brahms, Wagner, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, Mahler, Sibelius et al- are perfectly happy to amass collections of multiple copies of these composers' music(including some obvious duds) and compare and contrast interpretations, tempi etc etc etc at great and, undoubtedly, well-informed depth for hours, days........

and those who prefer to have one, two or, at the very most, three versions of the same piece, bought, probably, on the recommendation of a writer/critic they have come to trust and respect, and spend the rest of their time exploring the byways of musical composition, investigating composers who have been neglected or ignored previously.

Each is a perfectly respectable position to adopt :) I bow in admiration to those who have the musical knowledge to review and discuss twenty versions of the same Mahler symphony. I don't have such knowledge. I prefer to go exploring. Sometimes the music I unearth turns out to be no more than average but sometimes I discover a composer who takes my breath away and that is a simply marvellous experience :)

Take cilgwyn's beloved Daniel Jones for example :) Or Richard Arnell :) How many of those who love the rich romanticism of, say, Rachmaninov would love the Arnell symphonies ???
Yet they may not give the man a chance because they are comparing the umpteenth version of the Mahler 7th ;D

There....another rant ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on October 30, 2012, 07:02:29 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 30, 2012, 06:54:31 AM
From my experience both inside and outside of music forums I have come to the conclusion that the classical listening world divides into those who prefer to stick mainly to composers they know-Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Berlioz, Brahms, Wagner, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, Mahler, Sibelius et al- are perfectly happy to amass collections of multiple copies of these composers' music(including some obvious duds) and compare and contrast interpretations, tempi etc etc etc at great and, undoubtedly, well-informed depth for hours, days........

and those who prefer to have one, two or, at the very most, three versions of the same piece, bought, probably, on the recommendation of a writer/critic they have come to trust and respect, and spend the rest of their time exploring the byways of musical composition, investigating composers who have been neglected or ignored previously.

Each is a perfectly respectable position to adopt :) I bow in admiration to those who have the musical knowledge to review and discuss twenty versions of the same Mahler symphony. I don't have such knowledge. I prefer to go exploring. Sometimes the music I unearth turns out to be no more than average but sometimes I discover a composer who takes my breath away and that is a simply marvellous experience :)

Take cilgwyn's beloved Daniel Jones for example :) Or Richard Arnell :) How many of those who love the rich romanticism of, say, Rachmaninov would love the Arnell symphonies ???
Yet they may not give the man a chance because they are comparing the umpteenth version of the Mahler 7th ;D

There....another rant ;D ;D

The human race can be divided into two categories.  Those who divide the human race into two categories, and those who don't. 

I don't see how the fact that I have more than a dozen recordings of Bruckner's 8th or Beethoven's late String Quartets disqualifies me from being interested in musical composition.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 30, 2012, 07:07:51 AM
"I don't see how the fact that I have more than a dozen recordings of Bruckner's 8th or Beethoven's late String Quartets disqualifies me from being interested in musical composition."


I don't think Colin is saying that. What I think he is bewailing is the fact - as he sees it - that people aren't adventurous enough, missing a lot of good, yes, sometimes even great music in the process.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on October 30, 2012, 07:13:27 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 30, 2012, 07:07:51 AMI don't think Colin is saying that. What I think he is bewailing is the fact - as he sees it - that people aren't adventurous enough, missing a lot of good, yes, sometimes even great music in the process.

Maybe he doesn't mean that, but that's what he said.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 30, 2012, 07:31:25 AM
 ::)

NO...it is NOT what I said, meant, intended or implied ::)

I am not sure that I would go even so far as Johan states as "bewailing the fact". I regret that those who-for whatever reason-prefer to stick with what they know so well rather than listen to what they may be unfamiliar with can miss out on some great music BUT I can respect that position.

AND...as AGAIN I stated quite explicitly, I have tremendous admiration and am in frequent awe of the deep knowledge of compositional techniques and interpretative nuances which allows them to make the comparisons I cannot.

Can I be any clearer ??? ??? ???

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 30, 2012, 08:06:31 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 30, 2012, 06:54:31 AM
From my experience both inside and outside of music forums I have come to the conclusion that the classical listening world divides into those who prefer to stick mainly to composers they know-Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Berlioz, Brahms, Wagner, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, Mahler, Sibelius et al- are perfectly happy to amass collections of multiple copies of these composers' music(including some obvious duds) and compare and contrast interpretations, tempi etc etc etc at great and, undoubtedly, well-informed depth for hours, days........

and those who prefer to have one, two or, at the very most, three versions of the same piece, bought, probably, on the recommendation of a writer/critic they have come to trust and respect, and spend the rest of their time exploring the byways of musical composition, investigating composers who have been neglected or ignored previously.

There's a third type, of which there are many here at GMG: in a word, the insane ;D  Those who not only collect multiple copies of their favorite works but who avidly explore outside the usual suspects. I'm one of those crazies: for example, I own 35 Mahler Firsts (over 350 Mahler recordings in total); 14 Rings, 20 Brahms Fourths, 23 Bruckner Ninths, etc, etc. But there are also close to 400 composers in my collection, including (to cite your example) Arnell's Symphonies 2, 3, 4, 5 and the Piano Concerto; every Havergal Brian recording; many obscure Austro-German Romantics and Post Romantics. Over 10, 000 CDs and LPs total. Spread out over a lifetime, it's perfectly feasible to have breadth and depth in ones collection.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 30, 2012, 08:43:42 AM
....and THAT-IF you can afford it IS  the ideal combination :) :)

But if it has worked for you then I applaud your energy, enthusiasm and commitment :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 30, 2012, 08:50:59 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 30, 2012, 08:43:42 AM
....and THAT-IF you can afford it

Yes, I should have called this third type: the insane and fiscally irresponsible  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 30, 2012, 08:56:30 AM
My apologies :-[

Re-reading my post I should, of course, have said "Is the ideal combination" rather than "may be" :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 08:59:11 AM
Actually,it's just cost & available room that really stops me. I DO have multiple recordings of the Enigma Variations (well,the most significant ones),for example,due to my interest in British Music & because of the Enigma Variations obvious historical significance & it's unusually,for a British composition (English,if you like) extensive recording history,from the acoustic era........well,you all know,don't you! But it's interesting isn't? The other week I played recordings by Monteux,Elgar himself,Boult,Barbirolli,Dutoit,Hamilton Harty,Henry Wood............and it's interesting,isn't it? Well,I thought so!
And of course,it's just lovely music! :)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 09:12:48 AM
Lack of room is an issue,quite frankly,when it comes to multiple copies! Maybe a Heath Robinson arrangement,with my settee,tv set hanging from the ceiling & the cds filling the floor,might help?! As it stands.they're presumably getting used to seeing Gerr Tveitt & Villa Lobos in between the Cliff Richard & Abba cds,down at the YMCA! Mind you when I dumped another load in there the other week,I remember being rather suprised to see an X Files VHS Season Box set on the counter!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on October 30, 2012, 09:38:09 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 30, 2012, 07:31:25 AM
::)

NO...it is NOT what I said, meant, intended or implied ::)

I am not sure that I would go even so far as Johan states as "bewailing the fact". I regret that those who-for whatever reason-prefer to stick with what they know so well rather than listen to what they may be unfamiliar with can miss out on some great music BUT I can respect that position.

AND...as AGAIN I stated quite explicitly, I have tremendous admiration and am in frequent awe of the deep knowledge of compositional techniques and interpretative nuances which allows them to make the comparisons I cannot.

Can I be any clearer ??? ??? ???

Please.

Quote from: Dundonnell on October 30, 2012, 06:54:31 AM
From my experience both inside and outside of music forums I have come to the conclusion that the classical listening world divides into those who prefer to stick mainly to composers they know-Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Berlioz, Brahms, Wagner, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, Mahler, Sibelius et al- are perfectly happy to amass collections of multiple copies of these composers' music(including some obvious duds) and compare and contrast interpretations, tempi etc etc etc at great and, undoubtedly, well-informed depth for hours, days........

and those who prefer to have one, two or, at the very most, three versions of the same piece, bought, probably, on the recommendation of a writer/critic they have come to trust and respect, and spend the rest of their time exploring the byways of musical composition, investigating composers who have been neglected or ignored previously.

You divided classical listeners into two catagories and allow that those "who prefer to have one, to or at the very most three versions of the same piece" "spend the rest of their time exploring the byways of musical composition."   As Sarge has pointed out, there is nothing in being interested in multiple performances which excludes being interested in a broad range of composers, off the beaten trail.

You can divide the world into people who like cheese and people who don't like cheese.  That is fine, although of limited interest.  But when you divide the world into those who like cheese and those who like broccoli, you make a hash of it, since the two are not exclusive.  There are lots of people who like both, or like neither.  That's what you have done.   Your statement isn't offensive, it's simply jibberish.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on October 30, 2012, 09:46:38 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 30, 2012, 08:06:31 AM
There's a third type, of which there are many here at GMG: in a word, the insane ;D  Those who not only collect multiple copies of their favorite works but who avidly explore outside the usual suspects. I'm one of those crazies: for example, I own 35 Mahler Firsts (over 350 Mahler recordings in total); 14 Rings, 20 Brahms Fourths, 23 Bruckner Ninths, etc, etc. But there are also close to 400 composers in my collection, including (to cite your example) Arnell's Symphonies 2, 3, 4, 5 and the Piano Concerto; every Havergal Brian recording; many obscure Austro-German Romantics and Post Romantics. Over 10, 000 CDs and LPs total. Spread out over a lifetime, it's perfectly feasible to have breadth and depth in ones collection.

Sarge

Indeed, Sarge, but then there are types like me who just stick to one century and don't really bother exploring the rest. The 20th Century is my home away from home. :D Although I do love a lot of Romantic music, especially late-Romantic music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 09:57:47 AM
I must admit,I prefer a corn beef hash myself,but broccoli and cheese would probably be healthier.Also I would personally mix the two together,otherwise it would just be cheese & broccoli,not a hash!
Having said that,each to his own,I say! It's all food for thought,anyway.
(I'm with the cheese camp,personally!)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 10:01:38 AM
Anyway,back to Havergal Broccoli!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on October 30, 2012, 10:07:06 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 09:57:47 AM
I must admit,I prefer a corn beef hash myself,but broccoli and cheese would probably be healthier.Also I would personally mix the two together,otherwise it would just be cheese & broccoli,not a hash!
Having said that,each to his own,I say! It's all food for thought,anyway.
(I'm with the cheese camp,personally!)

I must say I did not anticipate that my post would facilitate such richly mixed metaphors.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 30, 2012, 10:07:49 AM
You divided classical listeners into two catagories and allow that those "who prefer to have one, to or at the very most three versions of the same piece" "spend the rest of their time exploring the byways of musical composition."   As Sarge has pointed out, there is nothing in being interested in multiple performances which excludes being interested in a broad range of composers, off the beaten trail.

You can divide the world into people who like cheese and people who don't like cheese.  That is fine, although of limited interest.  But when you divide the world into those who like cheese and those who like broccoli, you make a hash of it, since the two are not exclusive.  There are lots of people who like both, or like neither.  That's what you have done.   Your statement isn't offensive, it's simply jibberish.


Your first paragraph I accept and can agree with. It is the point made by Sarge and I have already accepted it, although, as I said, such a position does require an additional financial commitment which I certainly could not afford.

Your second paragraph is the sort of gratutitously rude and offensive comment which is one reason why I began to find membership of this forum occasionally an unpleasant experience :(

I try to be courteous to my fellow members, I concede when I am wrong, I return to apologise if I have unintentionally upset someone and I am treated to abuse of this nature.
And IF you don't think that describing a post as "jibberish" is rude and offensive then you require training in manners >:(

You are blocked :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on October 30, 2012, 10:13:43 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 30, 2012, 10:07:49 AM
You divided classical listeners into two catagories and allow that those "who prefer to have one, to or at the very most three versions of the same piece" "spend the rest of their time exploring the byways of musical composition."   As Sarge has pointed out, there is nothing in being interested in multiple performances which excludes being interested in a broad range of composers, off the beaten trail.

You can divide the world into people who like cheese and people who don't like cheese.  That is fine, although of limited interest.  But when you divide the world into those who like cheese and those who like broccoli, you make a hash of it, since the two are not exclusive.  There are lots of people who like both, or like neither.  That's what you have done.   Your statement isn't offensive, it's simply jibberish.


Your first paragraph I accept and can agree with. It is the point made by Sarge and I have already accepted it, although, as I said, such a position does require an additional financial commitment which I certainly could not afford.

Your second paragraph is the sort of gratutitously rude and offensive comment which is one reason why I began to find membership of this forum occasionally an unpleasant experience :(

I try to be courteous to my fellow members, I concede when I am wrong, I return to apologise if I have unintentionally upset someone and I am treated to abuse of this nature.
And IF you don't think that describing a post as "jibberish" is rude and offensive then you require training in manners >:(

You are blocked :)

My intention was not to be rude, sorry if you took it that way.  Perhaps the use of the word jibberish put it over the top.

For what it is worth, I found your post condescending and implicitly insulting.   But now that you are blocking me, I can say whatever I please about you, no?  Excellent outcome!  :)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 30, 2012, 10:19:04 AM
And now back to HB.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on October 30, 2012, 10:42:07 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 30, 2012, 10:19:04 AM
And now back to HB.

I'll return after I've somehow disposed of my excess copies of Beethoven's Op 131.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on October 30, 2012, 10:49:05 AM
Don't worry about Scarpia, Colin. His negativity is well-documented. He never apologizes for anything. At least, I have the common decency to apologize to my fellow GMG members if I unintentionally insult them.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on October 30, 2012, 10:53:25 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 30, 2012, 10:49:05 AM
Don't worry about Scarpia, Colin. His negativity is well-documented. He never apologizes for anything. At least, I have the common decency to apologize to my fellow GMG members if I unintentionally insult them.

Except I explicitly apologized three posts above.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on October 30, 2012, 10:57:53 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 30, 2012, 10:53:25 AM
Except I explicitly apologized three posts above.  :)

But you countered that 'apology' with this comment:

QuoteFor what it is worth, I found your post condescending and implicitly insulting. But now that you are blocking me, I can say whatever I please about you, no?  Excellent outcome!

Saying I'm sorry with good intentions and then turning right around and saying something unnecessarily negative again cancels out that apology in my view.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on October 30, 2012, 11:09:15 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 30, 2012, 11:05:25 AM
Except you clipped off the smiley I had put on the end of that last quip.  :)

The smiley doesn't matter. An apology doesn't end with another negative comment. You can make excuses for your rude behavior all you want to.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Scarpia on October 30, 2012, 11:09:47 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 30, 2012, 10:57:53 AMSaying I'm sorry with good intentions and then turning right around and saying something unnecessarily negative again cancels out that apology in my view.


Except you clipped off the smiley I had put on the end of that last quip.  :)

You don't have anything better to do than follow me around this board?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on October 30, 2012, 11:13:53 AM
Quote from: Scarpia on October 30, 2012, 11:09:47 AM

Except you clipped off the smiley I had put on the end of that last quip.  :)

You don't have anything better to do than follow me around this board?

Again, the smiley MEANS nothing because you followed that 'apology' with another negative comment. I have plenty better to do, but getting you to admit you were a jerk to Colin is too much to ask I suppose. ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 30, 2012, 11:16:54 AM
John Grimshaw, Chairman of the HBS, wrote to me today about the new Dutton CD: "I hope to have the discs at the end of next week and will process orders immediately they arrive here." Can't wait!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 11:57:47 AM
Neither can I! :)
Regarding Chandos,as referred to a few posts ago. I wonder what's happening there,behind the scenes. They used to be such an exciting label? Is it just a question of economics? Where are the Bax,Arnold,Rubbra,Dyson,Stanford,Parry (etc) cycles of times past. I remember the dreaded Hurwitz suggesting (he should know! ;D) they were running out of ideas. Could he actually be right?!!! Of course,they have had conductor problems,but still.........?!!! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on October 30, 2012, 12:03:01 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 11:57:47 AM
Neither can I! :)
Regarding Chandos,as referred to a few posts ago. I wonder what's happening there,behind the scenes. They used to be such an exciting label? Is it just a question of economics? Where are the Bax,Arnold,Rubbra,Dyson,Stanford,Parry (etc) cycles of times past. I remember the dreaded Hurwitz suggesting (he should know! ;D) they were running out of ideas. Could he actually be right?!!! Of course,they have had conductor problems,but still.........?!!! :(

Yeah, it appears that Chandos seem to be running out of steam, although they've had some good recordings in recent years. There are so many smaller labels now that offer more affordable prices and just as high content performance-wise like Naxos that are putting a hurting on Chandos. I could go to Naxos right now with the prospect of recording some Henning chamber music and if I have the funds to do make the recording happen, Naxos will release it and distribute it. Chandos doesn't seem to offer that kind of independence to their artists and I wonder how accepting they are to newer artists? All food for thought.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 12:16:01 PM
Yes! A little sad,really. Chandos were a great label. I just can't quite believe I'm using the past tense! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 01:47:17 PM
Oh well,perhaps they'll suprise us yet! They have got Raff 2 & this Rufinatcha chap on their books,apparently!

Going back to Havergal Brian. I am a bit puzzled by 'The Havergal Brian Project'? Who exactly is behind this website. Is it Naxos,or a joint venture between Naxos & the HBS? Also,are we likely to see any other developments in relation to this 'Project' besides cd recordings?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 30, 2012, 01:57:07 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 01:47:17 PM
Oh well,perhaps they'll suprise us yet! They have got Raff 2 & this Rufinatcha chap on their books,apparently!

Going back to Havergal Brian. I am a bit puzzled by 'The Havergal Brian Project'? Who exactly is behind this website. Is it Naxos,or a joint venture between Naxos & the HBS? Also,are we likely to see any other developments in relation to this 'Project' besides cd recordings?

I don't really care who's behind it, and I won't complain if it results in more recordings. Pleased to see that the latest Naxos will have the English Suite No.1 on it, that's a fun work, but the recording with the Hull Schools Orchestra is a terrible recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 02:01:02 PM
I see the link,now! It's pretty big & obvious!!! ;D

By the way,I hope Dundonnells still out there,somewhere!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 30, 2012, 02:05:00 PM
The Havergal Brian Project - that's the first time I hear of it! Intriguing!


http://havergalbrianproject.vpweb.co.uk/default.html (http://havergalbrianproject.vpweb.co.uk/default.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 02:18:46 PM
Ah yes,the Hull Youth SO recordings. To be fair,just imagine being a teenager back in the late 70s,thirsty for more Brian....and it wasn't as easy to come by then. The Hull Youth SO Lps were a lone 'window' on another aspect of Brians long 'career'. I spent allot of time trying my best to glean out what I could from them. As luck would have it,I chose the Lp with 'In Memoriam',which as John pointed out,is a fairly straight forward march which they manage to cope with reasonably well. Also,'Festal Dance',which includes the 'piano part' missing from the,imo,rather humourless Marco Polo recording & at least their wacky,eccentric approach has some fun in it! On the other hand,their account of 'For Valour' is pretty hair raising,in the wrong kind of way!! :o
Also,the Hull Youth SO recordings gave my adolescent mind some pretty wierd ideas about HB's early attempts at orchestration,particularly the string section! The worst bits are rather like the old trick of dragging your fingernails across a school blackboard. Ouch!!! If only it had been the LSSO!!!
  Still,they were youngsters,so kudo's to them for trying!

I DO actually like their performance of 'In Memoriam! The strings are a bit scrapy in places & there are some decidedly knife edge moments;but there's a grandeur & imposing solemnity which I find missing from the MP performance.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 30, 2012, 02:26:59 PM
I must say that the climax of the Fantastic Variations (fanfares and organ) are still best heard in the recroding by the Hull Youth Orchestra. And the start of the coda to Doctor Merryheart hasn't been bettered, either...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 02:46:31 PM
We could be alone in our enthusiasm,I fear,Johan;but there is something there. Of course,now there are professional alternatives to most of the pieces. Back then,if you had enjoyed the Gothic,or some of those other Lps,the Hull Youth So recordings were pioneering ventures;you had nothing else,so you 'devoured' them with youthful enthusiasm,played them over & over again,trying to glean out anything you could between the admittedly,off key strings & lurching,ramshackle ensemble.
Nowadays,someone puts them. Huh! They're all out of tune!!! Lets grab some of those Naxos performances.....why bother?!!

IMHO,there is an enthusiasm & pioneering fervour there,somewhere,which I DO find missing from the Marco Polo performances. Yes,the professional performances are obviously superior,technically;but at the same time I find them curiously dull. However polished & fluid they might be,it's as if they are just 'going through the motions' & I DO have a problem with that! In that respect,I DO actually prefer the HYSO performances;even if I have to grit my teeth allot! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 30, 2012, 02:56:26 PM
Give me fervour with imperfections over spotless tameness any time!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 03:11:23 PM
In fact,I'm going to get those 'fervid imperfections' out of the box right now! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 30, 2012, 03:19:06 PM
Don't wake up the neighbours
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 04:53:17 PM
I won't! :( Unfortunately,I can't friggin' find it! :( Have another look today! :(

The  Havergal Brian curse?!! :( :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 30, 2012, 04:56:40 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 02:01:02 PM
I see the link,now! It's pretty big & obvious!!! ;D

By the way,I hope Dundonnells still out there,somewhere!!

Fear not, my friend ;D

I am still very much here :) :)   I have been out this evening enjoying a meal and some civilised company with friends :)

Going back-if I may-to your comments on Chandos. You are perfectly correct to focus on the loss of Richard Hickox. It was, obviously, a devastating blow to the company :(
He had become virtually their "house-conductor" and I have no doubt that he and they had a recording schedule planned out over the next few years that would have included all manner of enticing goodies.

Hickox-like Neeme Jarvi-appears to have been an insatiable addict for making cds. Indeed, it was that workaholic nature that, I fear, contributed to his tragic death. Attempting to balance the responsibility of running the Sydney Opera House-never an easy task at the best of times-and an intensive recording schedule was a heavy, and, as it turns out, an insupportable burden.

Hickox appears to have embraced the notion of the "British music specialist". Vernon Handley did so with some reluctance but could never shake off that reputation as far as orchestral managements were concerned. His steadily worsening health over the last few years before his death made concert promoters and record companies increasingly reluctant to bank on his ability to fulfill engagements.

Younger, up-and-coming conductors are also less than keen to be pigeon-holed. Edward Gardner would-understandably-prefer to record a complete Lutoslawski series than embark on something more esoteric. Sir Andrew Davis has moved on from the early decades of his career when he was most noted as a conductor of "modern music".
His current recordings of Delius are getting rave reviews so it will not particularly matter to Chandos that he is repeating repertoire already covered by Handley.....any more than getting Handley to re-do Arnold Bax when Bryden Thomson had been there before :)

I suspect that a further element is, as you suspect, finance. Companies like Chandos, Hyperion and Dutton live on the edge. (Naxos is quite a different story ;D). It is this financial pressure which makes the Dutton achievement so astounding. Long may it continue.....but I know that a company like Dutton will need as much financial support as they can get.
Before any recording project is undertaken I guess the begging-bowl may go out round the various musical trusts(RVW, Alan Bush) and the HBS.

Oh to be a fly-on-the wall when Michael Dutton and Lewis Foreman sit down to discuss a possible recording ;D ;D

As someone who has just been asked by a friend for a suggestion for a coupling for a possible recording project by one of these companies I am beginning to appreciate that, at the end of the day, a composer's chances can come down to pure chance/luck.   (And NO I am telling you absolutely NO MORE about the project....except that it does NOT involve HB).

Apologies.....prolix as ever :-[ :-[
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 30, 2012, 05:07:11 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on Today at 01:53:17 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg671594#msg671594)
I won't! :( Unfortunately,I can't friggin' find it! :( Have another look today! :(

The  Havergal Brian curse?!! :( :o



Yep, the Brian Jinx in classic mode.  ;)


>
Quote from: Dundonnell on October 30, 2012, 04:56:40 PM
Apologies.....prolix as ever :-[ :-[


Let's say fecund.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 30, 2012, 05:13:57 PM
If my Dutch was one-millionth as good as your English........ ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 30, 2012, 06:00:50 PM
To return to the Hull SO orchestra recordings, I didn't mind the rough but enthusiastic playing, it was the recording that was the problem, far too close, it sounded as though the whole orchestra was playing in a small lift.

Anyway, can't wait for the ES 1 on the new Naxos, the entry of the Fat Lady is one the funniest moments in music.

And with the ES 1 on this disk we officially reach the end of the orchestral "fillers'. So unless record labels are going to repeat fillers endlessly, or try bits of the operas and choral works, they should start including extra symphonies!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on October 30, 2012, 06:14:26 PM
"And with the ES 1 on this disk we officially reach the end of the orchestral "fillers'. So unless record labels are going to repeat fillers endlessly, or try bits of the operas and choral works, they should start including extra symphonies!"

Hear, Hear :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 31, 2012, 01:00:11 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 04:53:17 PM
I won't! :( Unfortunately,I can't friggin' find it! :( Have another look today! :(

The  Havergal Brian curse?!! :( :o
Try the sock drawer. Just found my copy but probably won't put it on.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 31, 2012, 06:31:41 AM
You're detailed response,Dundonell,to my points about the direction of Chandos,are as helpful as usual! Short of being in a pub with Ralph Couzens (does he drink?! ;D) and hoping he'll spill the beans after a few pints,this really answers my posts as well as any mere mortal can!
I occasionally post on the Chandos forum & while interest has been expressed in Bate,Holbrooke & even obscure & possibly deserving figures (?) like Learmont Drysdale (!) nothing much seems to happen....at least so far! :(
The loss of Richard Hickox does seem to have been a bit of a disaster for us British music lovers!
Conducting,like comedy,seems to be a career choice to avoid,if you value your health. Yet,years ago you seemed to have figures like Boult,Stokowski & Beecham (cigar included!) who seemed to go on conducting for year after year! Bryden Thomson,is another conductor,like Hickox,who seems to have had an enthusiasm for the byways of British music. Although,I don't know if it was stress that contributed to his premature death??! Either way,one can only speculate about what a conductor of his ability could have done. He had a particular passion for Daniel Jones,didn't he? If he'd lived I wonder if he could have persuaded Chandos of the worthiness of a Daniel Jones symphony cycle?! We could have been playing the cds now!!! :)
But maybe not! From what little I know of the recording industry,very few conductors can record exactly what THEY want to do! They obviously have to find a record label that is,say,interested in Daniel Jones or Havergal Brian,too!
Which makes me think! If Herbert von Karajan had been an August Bungert admirer,would he have cds of his 'Homerische Welt' operatic tetrology?! If Bernstein had a rare passion for Roy Harris,would we have a Bernstein Harris cycle?
  How much influence do even the most famous & wealthiest of conductors actually have?

Regarding the Cameo Classics Hull Youth SO cds. Still can't find them,although I DO remember 'handling' them. It's all very mysterious.
Of course,as soon as I stop looking for them I'll probably find them!!! :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 31, 2012, 08:51:04 AM
Still looking! :(

Nope! Not even inside the sock!!! :( :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 31, 2012, 12:30:18 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 30, 2012, 02:18:46 PM
Ah yes,the Hull Youth SO recordings. To be fair,just imagine being a teenager back in the late 70s,thirsty for more Brian....and it wasn't as easy to come by then. The Hull Youth SO Lps were a lone 'window' on another aspect of Brians long 'career'. I spent allot of time trying my best to glean out what I could from them. As luck would have it,I chose the Lp with 'In Memoriam',which as John pointed out,is a fairly straight forward march which they manage to cope with reasonably well. Also,'Festal Dance',which includes the 'piano part' missing from the,imo,rather humourless Marco Polo recording & at least their wacky,eccentric approach has some fun in it! On the other hand,their account of 'For Valour' is pretty hair raising,in the wrong kind of way!! :o
Also,the Hull Youth SO recordings gave my adolescent mind some pretty wierd ideas about HB's early attempts at orchestration,particularly the string section! The worst bits are rather like the old trick of dragging your fingernails across a school blackboard. Ouch!!! If only it had been the LSSO!!!  Still,they were youngsters,so kudo's to them for trying!

I DO actually like their performance of 'In Memoriam! The strings are a bit scrapy in places & there are some decidedly knife edge moments;but there's a grandeur & imposing solemnity which I find missing from the MP performance.
Those poor children in Leicestershire suffered enough for the cause. It was time for somebody else to chip in with few recordings. Are you totally heartless?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 31, 2012, 01:40:17 PM
Re: Chandos

It isn't just British music that gets unaccountably neglected, I can't understand why, for example, there aren't several competing David Diamond symphony cycles available.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 31, 2012, 01:58:01 PM
Quite! I know he has a lot of admirers here & at the AMF. I also find it strange that Pistons Fifth,Seventh & Eighth symphonies only seem to be available in those ancient old Louisville performances. They're quite good,but it still seems a tad ridiculous. I find all three symphonies a very satisfying & absorbing listen,but it would be nice to hear some newer performances.
As Dundonnell has pointed out before,in terms of 'home grown' recordings,American composers are even worse off than ours. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 01, 2012, 05:40:45 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 31, 2012, 06:31:41 AM
You're detailed response,Dundonell,to my points about the direction of Chandos,are as helpful as usual! Short of being in a pub with Ralph Couzens (does he drink?! ;D) and hoping he'll spill the beans after a few pints,this really answers my posts as well as any mere mortal can!
I occasionally post on the Chandos forum & while interest has been expressed in Bate,Holbrooke & even obscure & possibly deserving figures (?) like Learmont Drysdale (!) nothing much seems to happen....at least so far! :(
The loss of Richard Hickox does seem to have been a bit of a disaster for us British music lovers!
Conducting,like comedy,seems to be a career choice to avoid,if you value your health. Yet,years ago you seemed to have figures like Boult,Stokowski & Beecham (cigar included!) who seemed to go on conducting for year after year! Bryden Thomson,is another conductor,like Hickox,who seems to have had an enthusiasm for the byways of British music. Although,I don't know if it was stress that contributed to his premature death??! Either way,one can only speculate about what a conductor of his ability could have done. He had a particular passion for Daniel Jones,didn't he? If he'd lived I wonder if he could have persuaded Chandos of the worthiness of a Daniel Jones symphony cycle?! We could have been playing the cds now!!! :)
But maybe not! From what little I know of the recording industry,very few conductors can record exactly what THEY want to do! They obviously have to find a record label that is,say,interested in Daniel Jones or Havergal Brian,too!
Which makes me think! If Herbert von Karajan had been an August Bungert admirer,would he have cds of his 'Homerische Welt' operatic tetrology?! If Bernstein had a rare passion for Roy Harris,would we have a Bernstein Harris cycle?
  How much influence do even the most famous & wealthiest of conductors actually have?

Regarding the Cameo Classics Hull Youth SO cds. Still can't find them,although I DO remember 'handling' them. It's all very mysterious.
Of course,as soon as I stop looking for them I'll probably find them!!! :( ;D

Actually it was cancer that killed Bryden Thomson :( :(

But you are right to highlight his name :) He was an exceptionally gifted conductor :) Just think what he recorded for Chandos-Vaughan Williams, Bax, Walton, Nielsen, Martinu cycles which stand the test of time. I am sure that he would have been delighted to have recorded all the Daniel Jones symphonies....but it does need a record company to take up the offer.

In Germany cpo has an agreement with the state radio organizations which enables them to use the radio orchestras. Why on earth this could not be replicated in Britain I really don't know :o The BBC has-presumably still ??? ???-the recordings of the Jones/Thomson series. Why not remaster the tapes and issue the recordings ??? ??? Better than nothing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 01, 2012, 05:57:29 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 31, 2012, 01:40:17 PM
Re: Chandos

It isn't just British music that gets unaccountably neglected, I can't understand why, for example, there aren't several competing David Diamond symphony cycles available.
Limited market, I'm afraid. I wonder what the sales are like for the Diamond CDs currently avaiable? Not very good I bet. I have most of them and some are decent enough. Not totally conviced about the potential appetite for any more recordings though. Record companies live off margins not goodwill. It's a shame but that's the way it is. HOWEVER - as a licence fee payer I think that the BBC could offer their master tapes at absolute minimal costs to the recording companies in order to get their archive out there as a budget series. Not much cost in terms of remastering. The tapes are gathering dust and I'm one of the people that have already paid for them to be recorded. The Schmidt Gothic for example. Charge Chandos 200 quid for the tape, ask for a 10% royalty on sales for the BBC coffers and get it on sale for £10 a set. What's the big deal? Am I missing something? 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 01, 2012, 08:03:59 AM
I hope to have an answer to your last point later this evening :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 01, 2012, 09:35:48 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 01, 2012, 08:03:59 AM
I hope to have an answer to your last point later this evening :)
Are you just being a tease???????
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 01, 2012, 05:42:23 PM
No ;D I knew that I would having a telephone conversation with someone who used to work for the BBC as a producer and, later, Head of Music and that I could ask him the question.

The answer was rather less than satisfactory :(

What it boiled down to was-
(1) The BBC tried some years ago to issue British music recordings from its archives on its own label. The discs didn't sell.
(2) It would require a record company to approach the BBC with a request/proposal to release the tapes of whatever-say the Daniel Jones symphonies. In the present climate that is unlikely.
(3) If such an approach was made someone at the BBC would need to make a decision.....oh dear, now you ARE asking :o
(4) Even if the idea was approved in principle someone would have to do some work, for example in checking out legal and copyright issues. Oh Heavens :o

How on earth Roger Wright manages to run the Proms and how he managed to persuade THEM (whoever THEY may be) to stage the Gothic goodness alone knows ;D

I fear that the BBC is a vast bureaucratic lumbering machine where the glaringly obvious becomes improbable, unlikely, impossible............... To cut through the tangle and get something done requires commitment, energy, commitment, tenacity..........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 02, 2012, 12:58:39 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 01, 2012, 05:42:23 PM
No ;D I knew that I would having a telephone conversation with someone who used to work for the BBC as a producer and, later, Head of Music and that I could ask him the question.

The answer was rather less than satisfactory :(

What it boiled down to was-
(1) The BBC tried some years ago to issue British music recordings from its archives on its own label. The discs didn't sell.
(2) It would require a record company to approach the BBC with a request/proposal to release the tapes of whatever-say the Daniel Jones symphonies. In the present climate that is unlikely.
(3) If such an approach was made someone at the BBC would need to make a decision.....oh dear, now you ARE asking :o
(4) Even if the idea was approved in principle someone would have to do some work, for example in checking out legal and copyright issues. Oh Heavens :o

How on earth Roger Wright manages to run the Proms and how he managed to persuade THEM (whoever THEY may be) to stage the Gothic goodness alone knows ;D

I fear that the BBC is a vast bureaucratic lumbering machine where the glaringly obvious becomes improbable, unlikely, impossible............... To cut through the tangle and get something done requires commitment, energy, commitment, tenacity..........
Not surprised. I bought a few of those BBC CDs including the Campoli/Bliss fiddle concerto. They were fit for purpose and good value. Why are the BBC sound archive mob so cautious? Why not just offer free streams at least? I suppose it's too much like hard work and the listening figures wouldn't be huge. Never mind.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 04, 2012, 02:58:09 PM
Indeed! A pity that venture conked out! My BBC Radio Classics cds of Boughton's Second & third symphonies & Downes Bantock Pagan Symphony,get played quite allot! If only the BBC Legends & Testament label were anywhere as adventurous! :( So far,the only cd I own from their respective catalogues is........(suprise! :)) the Boult Gothic!
And yes,a cd release of the Schmidt Gothic (the first performance I ever heard) would be marvellous!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 04, 2012, 03:06:53 PM
I have a CD of Scriabin's Third Symphony, with the BBC Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Sir John Pritchard, on the Artium label, which I bought in the BBC shop in Langham Place, London. That was in 1986. And the CD itself is from 1984. So 'Auntie' did, once upon a time, issue 'her' own recordings, as was already said earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 04, 2012, 03:34:55 PM
 Apologies! This is what comes of posting late at night! :( Is this the label that released the Delius 'The Magic Fountain'? I don't want to look it up in case I find a copy going cheap (trying to save!). (And I've got the excellent Scottish Opera production on cassette,anyway!). Were they all released on cd? I must admit I didn't own a cd player until the early 90s! :o :(

Incidentally,I just ordered the new Brian cd from the Dutton website a couple of minutes ago!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 04, 2012, 03:38:10 PM
Yes. Just checked - it's the Artium label. And sorry, here is a link..:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DELIUS-MAGIC-FOUNTAIN-BBC-ARTIUM-2-x-LP-BOXED-SET-INSERT-N-M-/380405646005 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DELIUS-MAGIC-FOUNTAIN-BBC-ARTIUM-2-x-LP-BOXED-SET-INSERT-N-M-/380405646005)


And now we have to wait for the new Brian CD!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 04, 2012, 03:47:48 PM
Far too much Havergal Brian on cd anyway ;D ;D

As someone else has already pointed  out he has much better representation on disc than most other British composers ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 04, 2012, 03:52:21 PM
As long as it's not a cd! ;D A nice minimalstic cover design!! I shall have to digitize my Scottish Opera production,won't I?! I'll have to learn how to use Audacity first! :(

Regarding the Dutton cd. Saving or not,this one demands wallet emptying. After all my moaning about the Bisengaliev VC,hopefully I will be happy with this performance.
I just hope the postman puts it through the right letterbox. They're pretty good though. I've only had to ask for one replacement (Dutton cd)  to date!

Regarding saving. In a fit of annoyance at BBC2 cancelling their repeat of Fawlty Towers tonight (every Sunday now!) because of Rugby;I ordered the remastered dvd set of the complete series!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 04, 2012, 03:53:22 PM
Yes,lets have a Gaze Cooper cycle!!! >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 04, 2012, 03:57:13 PM
You live in WALES!!   RUGBY IS GOD in Wales ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 04, 2012, 03:57:45 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on Today at 01:47:48 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg672723#msg672723)
Far too much Havergal Brian on cd anyway ;D ;D

As someone else has already pointed  out he has much better representation on disc than most other British composers ;D ;D



There can never be too much HB on CD.  :o But yes, we have reached the quite unbelievable situation that 40 years after his death on 28 November 1972, the music of Havergal Brian is being recorded at a faster rate than ever before. Still, I think I have to live to a ripe old age to hear the symphonies in multiple recordings!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 04, 2012, 04:01:25 PM
You have THREE versions of the Gothic on cd and now THREE versions of the Violin Concerto on cd ;D

Just have a look at my British symphonic discography and see HB's symphonies piling up on disc :)

Seriously....it is unbelievable :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 04, 2012, 04:02:57 PM
And will I live long enough to hear a cd of that most wonderful of Brian symphonies (or,one of them,anyway!) the 'Wine of Summer'?!!

Indeed,Dundonnell! A Welshman who doesn't like Rugby! Disgusting,isn't it?!! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 04, 2012, 04:05:41 PM
Three versions?!! I hope you're right!
Meanwhile,huge pile of HB cds,or not,I still can't locate my Hull Youth SO set,after days of searching! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 04, 2012, 06:08:30 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 04, 2012, 04:05:41 PM
Three versions?!! I hope you're right!
Meanwhile,huge pile of HB cds,or not,I still can't locate my Hull Youth SO set,after days of searching! :(

Holmes, Bisangeliev and McAslan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 04, 2012, 10:59:36 PM
Really looking forward to hearing the 13th; been listening to the old tapes, it's a great symphony, one of the best. The 14th is terrific too. I won't be happy until all the symphonies are on CD in good performances...................... Then record all the other British composers >:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 05, 2012, 03:55:05 AM
But with a moratorium on York Bowen recordings for the next five years! ;D YB fans have got a big enough pile already!!

Recording the Violin Concerto recordings. You are presumably referring to cdrs of the Holmes,Dundonnell? Alongside the Schmidt/Gothic & The Tigers,this should be another priority for a commercial cd release!
Then the Pope 3rd & the Rayner Cook Wine of Summer!
But I'm jumping the gun a bit,aren't I?!! ;D
(We've got our downloads,haven't we & Albions AMF vaults?!)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian: The Addiction
Post by: Cato on November 05, 2012, 05:19:53 AM
 Dudes!   8)

257 pages on Havergal Brian?   :o

Should we be concerned?  ???  Would counseling help?  Some sort of   :-*   special  :-*  therapy, perhaps, to counter the addiction?   ;D

There are doctors for everything these days!   0:)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 05, 2012, 05:26:51 AM
I did try & join the Roy Harris self help group;but the sessions only lasted 8 pages!! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Cato on November 05, 2012, 05:41:59 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 05, 2012, 05:26:51 AM
I did try & join the Roy Harris self help group;but the sessions only lasted 8 pages!! :(

:D  Would Stockhausen's Spaceship be of help?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 05, 2012, 07:06:04 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 04, 2012, 03:06:53 PM
I have a CD of Scriabin's Third Symphony, with the BBC Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Sir John Pritchard, on the Artium label, which I bought in the BBC shop in Langham Place, London. That was in 1986. And the CD itself is from 1984. So 'Auntie' did, once upon a time, issue 'her' own recordings, as was already said earlier in this thread.
Indeed, I also have the Scriabin CD and a few other BBC titles including Maxwell Davies Symphony No.3, some rather good Mozart and Strauss Horn Concertos (Michael Thompson), Del Mar's complete Irmelin (very pretty) and a Janet Craxton oboe recital (Lutyens etc). The very best of the lot is the classic complete BBC SO Sleeping Beauty. That is just brilliant. A good label sadly missed.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 05, 2012, 07:31:17 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 04, 2012, 03:38:10 PM
Yes. Just checked - it's the Artium label. And sorry, here is a link..:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DELIUS-MAGIC-FOUNTAIN-BBC-ARTIUM-2-x-LP-BOXED-SET-INSERT-N-M-/380405646005 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DELIUS-MAGIC-FOUNTAIN-BBC-ARTIUM-2-x-LP-BOXED-SET-INSERT-N-M-/380405646005)


And now we have to wait for the new Brian CD!
29 quid for two bits of old vinyl. Blimey.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian: The Addiction
Post by: Dundonnell on November 05, 2012, 07:43:35 AM
Quote from: Cato on November 05, 2012, 05:19:53 AM
Dudes!   8)

257 pages on Havergal Brian?   :o

Should we be concerned?  ???  Would counseling help?  Some sort of   :-*   special  :-*  therapy, perhaps, to counter the addiction?   ;D

There are doctors for everything these days!   0:)

It IS remarkable, isn't it ;D ::)

If one were to trawl back through ALL 257 pages and attempt to count how many of the posts actually relate directly to Brian and how many to other composers-which I am NOT going to do-I think one would find that many, many completely tangential issues have been discussed :)

I have huge admiration for Brian's achievements and love much of the music. Brian deserves recognition and wider exposure BUT we need to accept that, unfortunate though he undoubtedly was in life-he is now in an amazingly fortunate position. He had a passionate advocate within the BBC in the hugely respected composer and music producer, Robert Simpson, who ensured that the symphonies were broadcast by the BBC in the 1970s. These carefully preserved recordings are available for download. The continuing committed, passionate and incredibly eloquent advocacy of Malcolm MacDonald-not least through his three volume study of the symphonies-has been of immense value in sustaining Brian's reputation. There is an active and dedicated Havergal Brian Society which campaigns for and supports new recordings of the music. There are record companies willing to record Brian-first Naxos and now Toccata and Dutton. There are conductors who were or are prepared to take on the challenges of the music-Groves, Del Mar, Myer Fredman, Handley in the past, and, today, figures like Martyn Brabbins. There are devoted admirers of the music who will fill the Royal Albert Hall to hear the 'Gothic'-and, yes, I was one ;D

Does Brian deserve this "good fortune" ???  I firmly believe that the answer is yes.

My problem however is that there ARE other exceptionally fine British composers who did not and do not have such passionate, influential and eloquent advocates. Does their music deserve to be heard ??? I believe the answer is again-decidedly yes :)  Is their music as "good" as Brian's ??? That is a silly question. It is DIFFERENT :)

Passionate advocacy can create a "bandwagon effect" or, putting it much more politely, a "snowball-effect". The news that Naxos intends to resume its HB cycle and has already recorded Symphonies Nos. 22, 23 and 24 is both welcome(the symphonies merit recording) and interesting. What has led Naxos to that decision ??? New sources of finance coupled with an assessment of the possible market ???  I would guess both.

There are winners and losers amongst composers-as Johan has pointed out before-and this is often, sadly, a matter of sheer luck. I was happy to be on the side of Brian when his music was unjustly neglected. I am happy to remain on his side :)......but I am now more anxious to do what I can for those who are still languishing in totally unjustified musical oblivion.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 05, 2012, 08:04:04 AM
It is a shame to crucify Brian because other composers have fared worse, in fact it's unreasonable, especially on a thread, supposedly, devoted to him.
As to there being too many pages devoted to Brian, push off and fill that many pages with your own favourite. I defend your right to do so, good luck to you.

Feeling grumpy with you all. :P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on November 05, 2012, 08:15:03 AM
After listening to all the Brian recordings I own multiple times, I still have trouble making a connection to Brian's music. I think the only work that has truly impressed me is the Gothic. One reason is the sheer scale of the symphony. For a first symphony, this work is incredibly ambitious, but I fail to understand the allure of Brian's music and especially the fact that this thread has gone on for so many pages now. In the end, to each his own, but I never have fallen for this composer, but I'll continue to keep an open-mind.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Cato on November 05, 2012, 08:25:32 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on November 05, 2012, 08:04:04 AM
It is a shame to crucify Brian because other composers have fared worse, in fact it's unreasonable, especially on a thread, supposedly, devoted to him.
As to there being to many pages devoted to Brian, push off and fill that many pages with your own favourite. I defend your right to do so, good luck to you.

Feeling grumpy with you all. :P

0:)  Trust me!  No crucifixion intended!   0:)   I was just amazed at the Tolstoyan-length novel generated here, while I was glancing through things!   :)

Quote from: Dundonnell on November 05, 2012, 07:43:35 AM
It IS remarkable, isn't it ;D ::)

If one were to trawl back through ALL 257 pages and attempt to count how many of the posts actually relate directly to Brian and how many to other composers-which I am NOT going to do-I think one would find that many, many completely tangential issues have been discussed :)

I have huge admiration for Brian's achievements and love much of the music. Brian deserves recognition and wider exposure BUT we need to accept that, unfortunate though he undoubtedly was in life-he is now in an amazingly fortunate position.

Does Brian deserve this "good fortune" ???  I firmly believe that the answer is yes.

Passionate advocacy can create a "bandwagon effect" or, putting it much more politely, a "snowball-effect". The news that Naxos intends to resume its HB cycle and has already recorded Symphonies Nos. 22, 23 and 24 is both welcome(the symphonies merit recording) and interesting. What has led Naxos to that decision ??? New sources of finance coupled with an assessment of the possible market ???  I would guess both.

There are winners and losers amongst composers-as Johan has pointed out before-and this is often, sadly, a matter of sheer luck. I was happy to be on the side of Brian when his music was unjustly neglected. I am happy to remain on his side :)......but I am now more anxious to do what I can for those who are still languishing in totally unjustified musical oblivion.

Yes, Brian's time has arrived, in the same way that Mahler predicted that his day would arrive.

I would venture that his idiom strikes a chord with more people today for assorted reasons: one is the expansion of the aural palette thanks to previously experimental techniques which are now standard procedure in T.V. and film scores.  Another is the desire to hear something new, even if it is not contemporary: we can consume so much more music today than ever before in history, that Brian's oeuvre undoubtedly can find a market somewhere.



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 05, 2012, 08:37:47 AM
Brian has created his own world in sound, a world full of visions, weirdness, beauty, in a powerful and colourful idiom. He isn't very sensual. He can be rather grim and grand. There is a filmic quickness to his thinking. He is as addictive as Tolkien, who polarises opinon just as much. I don't know if his time has come. I sincerely hope so. But there is still a lot of work to be done.
In the meantime I applaud Colin's advocacy for other deserving causes. But I cannot be touched by every 'unknown' composer. I have added Pettersson, Tubin, Magnard and a few others to my list of favourites, the past few years. But only a handful can touch me in my soul. Beethoven, Wagner and Brian (and Bruckner, peeping around the corner).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 05, 2012, 08:48:59 AM
I am afraid that it is a little difficult to respond in an appropriately measured and courteous fashion when one has been accused of attempting "to crucify Brian because other composers have fared worse".

I have no desire to "crucify" Brian. Quite the reverse.......as I suspect you know perfectly well.

My point was made in reply to a comment on the fact that this thread has run to 257 pages. Brian does have passionate supporters. His music merits passionate supporters. I am one.

BUT the reason I have started so many threads about other composers is to attempt in my tiny way to keep their deserving names alive too. I started the thread on Daniel Jones(14 pages :)) and I quote cilgwyn:

"After my Delius sessions..........I felt like a really good symphony. I am now listening to the AMF downloads of Daniel Jones's symphonies 2 & 3. I can't believe how impressive these unrecorded,ignored (even here in Wales :() symphonies are. Marvellous! We get Rachmaninov & Glazunov symphonies from the BBCNOW,but no Daniel Jones symphonies! What a strange world! ::) After Havergal Brian,I find him one of the most absorbing British (albeit,WELSH!) symphonists,I know. Very,very satisfying to listen to. Like Brian his music has a thorny exterior,but it has a strong lyrical vein & his orchestration is varied & colourful. At times almost romantic,the more you listen the more you find. Like Brian at his best,I think you could go on listening to this music,over & over again & always find something new."

We should record HB. We should also record a composer like Daniel Jones. That is all I am saying :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Cato on November 05, 2012, 09:28:53 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 05, 2012, 08:48:59 AM

I have no desire to "crucify" Brian. Quite the reverse.......as I suspect you know perfectly well.


;D  MAYBE I did not use enough   :-*  emoticons    :-*   in my original comments  8)  to show that a humorous   ;D   intent was meant, after noticing the astonishing number of pages.

And now I have caused even more pages to be added!!!   ;D

Quote from: Dundonnell on November 05, 2012, 08:48:59 AM

BUT the reason I have started so many threads about other composers is to attempt in my tiny way to keep their deserving names alive too...

We should record HB. We should also record a composer like Daniel Jones. That is all I am saying :)

And many thanks to Dundonnell for those efforts! 

(Although the old pocketbook quakes and shakes at the cost of liking or loving another composer's music....)   0:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 05, 2012, 10:18:38 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 05, 2012, 08:37:47 AM
Brian has created his own world in sound, a world full of visions, weirdness, beauty, in a powerful and colourful idiom. He isn't very sensual. He can be rather grim and grand. There is a filmic quickness to his thinking. He is as addictive as Tolkien, who polarises opinon just as much. I don't know if his time has come. I sincerely hope so. But there is still a lot of work to be done.
In the meantime I applaud Colin's advocacy for other deserving causes. But I cannot be touched by every 'unknown' composer. I have added Pettersson, Tubin, Magnard and a few others to my list of favourites, the past few years. But only a handful can touch me in my soul. Beethoven, Wagner and Brian (and Bruckner, peeping around the corner).
Run for your life Johan!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He will bore you to death. ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 05, 2012, 10:28:28 AM
Your warning comes too late, John. But I live to tell the tale...  ;D There is life after Bruckner, even with Bruckner.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 05, 2012, 11:08:28 AM
Of course you "cannot be touched by every "unknown" composer", Johan :)  That would be extraordinarily unlikely and would suggest a catholicity of taste which had lurched into the totally undiscriminating ;D

I don't expect to find treasure with every new composer and I don't. All I am asking is that others give a comnposer whose music I think has genuine merit AND which I think they would like a chance. You would not, as a creative artist yourself, expect someone to turn round and say "Oh, I am not going to read this novel because it cannot touch me in the way I am moved by Dostoyevsky or Joyce or Tolkien" or whoever.

But as long as, for example, the Daniel Jones 2nd and 3rd remain unrecorded it is unlikely that cilgwyn's enthusiasm or mine will much advance his cause because our advocacy cannot hope to match that which HB has enjoyed.........AND, yes, of course, fully deserved!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 05, 2012, 11:12:47 AM
Nice to be quoted! In fact,that's actually quite eloquent for me. I'm reading it & thinking,did I REALLY write that?! Maybe there's a good novel in me,yet! :)

You can quote some more of me if you like. But preferably not the one about Mr Em Marshall Luck!! :o :(

I do understand what you are saying,Dundonnell. I remember one critic,years ago,I forget who,referring to Havergal Brian as the most overrated underrated,least neglected neglected composer of all time (a rough quote!). A bit catty,but even as someone who has been interested on & off,in HB,for over 30 years,I could,sort of,understand what he meant.....the rotter!!! >:( ;D
  I just made two cdrs of symphonies by William Wordsworth,just now;downloaded from the AMF site.Yet,there is only one cd of his music on the Amazon site. The lone Amazon reviewer refers to the music as "impressive if slightly forbidding....!"
  Yet a composers fortunes can unexpectedly change! For example,the other two cdrs I just made are of Schreker's opera 'Der Schatzgraber'. When I first heard this opera on R3,in 1985,there were no commercial recordings of his operas & none had ever been made! Now you can buy practically every one (if not all) of them on cd &,as if that isn't enough, even on dvd! To cap it all,staged performances appear to be multiplying & garnering praise!! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 05, 2012, 12:30:57 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 05, 2012, 11:08:28 AM
Of course you "cannot be touched by every "unknown" composer", Johan :)  That would be extraordinarily unlikely and would suggest a catholicity of taste which had lurched into the totally undiscriminating ;D

I don't expect to find treasure with every new composer and I don't. All I am asking is that others give a comnposer whose music I think has genuine merit AND which I think they would like a chance. You would not, as a creative artist yourself, expect someone to turn round and say "Oh, I am not going to read this novel because it cannot touch me in the way I am moved by Dostoyevsky or Joyce or Tolkien" or whoever.

But as long as, for example, the Daniel Jones 2nd and 3rd remain unrecorded it is unlikely that cilgwyn's enthusiasm or mine will much advance his cause because our advocacy cannot hope to match that which HB has enjoyed.........AND, yes, of course, fully deserved!!


Fair enough, Colin. I am still open to experience new music, but my time is restricted. The greatest additions to my personal canon have been, as I said, Pettersson, Tubin, Magnard, and Enescu. I also have come to like... York Bowen's music. Even Ligeti and Conlon Nancarrow... But I am busy and finding the time to absorb something new is limited. I also have to read and write!


Perhaps the amount of passionate advocacy an artist can inspire is an indication of the presence of something special. Artists who are masterly in a more moderate and less earth-shattering way won't cause extreme reactions in their audience, that excess of energy which will turn people into zealots. That may be unjust, but it may be a reason. Being born in the wrong country, or the wrong time, can be an obstacle, too. But if the work is strong, posterity will help out. Which is cold comfort to the dead artist, of course... But who said life was fair?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 05, 2012, 12:39:50 PM
Wordsworths third has a lovely,serene,glacial,slow movement! After this one,thanks to the AMF downloads,I can hear No 4 & then No 5! But no No 6,it seems! The result,an annoying gap before the continuation of No 7 & 8! :(
On the other hand.if I want to & have the time,thanks to numerous cds & uploads,I can listen to all 32 Brian symphonies,consecutively & thanks to the AMF,and some very good,but rather elderly recordings,all of the Daniel Jones symphonies!

Yes,I can see what Dundonnell means! :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 05, 2012, 05:40:36 PM
Arnold Cooke(1906), William Wordsworth(1908) and Daniel Jones(1912).....the three missing composers of that generation :(

Immediately before them-Alan Bush(1900), Edmund Rubbra(1901), Gerald Finzi(1901),  Sir William Walton(1902), Sir Lennox Berkeley(1903), Sir Michael Tippett(1905), Alan Rawsthorne(1905), William Alwyn(1905), Benjamin Frankel(1906)..........all much recorded or on the way :)   In the middle........Stanley Bate(1911).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 06, 2012, 02:04:17 AM
I assume that most of you have now downloaded the much improved compete Tigers from the Art-Music Forum courtesy of MVS. There are 3 zip files. Well worth hearing.

http://www.mediafire.com/?dpdi8cq4z4bj4#jeo9wp1dq0mxy
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 06, 2012, 07:02:56 AM
Yes,if you like your Havergal Brian,that's the place to go. Best ever downloads of the Pope conducted third symphony (best performance ever),Mackerras Second,and,I have to agree with Johan,the Leslie Head performances of the Second are (if you like that symphony) particularly rewarding (albeit,a little rough in places). So much better than the flabby Naxos job! :(
Also,if you're finding a bit quiet after Bonfire night & fancy something louder than Jimi Hendrix; The 1974 Poole Das Siegeslied is very hard to beat! Just don't blame me if your pet cat packs his suitcase & moves next door! ;D

And join the Art Music Forum & discover such hidden treasures as the symphonies of Daniel Jones. For my money,the most absorbing (neglected) British (WELSH! >:( ;D)cycle,after those of you know who! :)

End of ad!


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 06, 2012, 07:32:17 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 06, 2012, 07:02:56 AM
Yes,if you like your Havergal Brian,that's the place to go. Best ever downloads of the Pope conducted third symphony (best performance ever),Mackerras Second,and,I have to agree with Johan,the Leslie Head performances of the Second are (if you like that symphony) particularly rewarding (albeit,a little rough in places). So much better than the flabby Naxos job! :(
Also,if you're finding a bit quiet after Bonfire night & fancy something louder than Jimi Hendrix; The 1974 Poole Das Siegeslied is very hard to beat! Just don't blame me if your pet cat packs his suitcase & moves next door! ;D

And join the Art Music Forum & discover such hidden treasures as the symphonies of Daniel Jones. For my money,the most absorbing (neglected) British (WELSH! >:( ;D)cycle,after those of you know who! :)

End of ad!
2 or 3 wheels?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 06, 2012, 07:59:51 AM
Shanks pony! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 06, 2012, 08:56:01 AM
The Mackerras 2nd would be a prime candidate for remastering to disc but since, I presume, the BBC retains copyright, not a realistic prospect ???

The argument that Johan puts forward above that great music attracts zealots is perfectly valid but zealots come in all shapes and sizes. Some are, fortunately, placed in positions of influence(like Simpson) or have a unique quality of linguistic excellence(like Malcolm MacDonald-who has the ability to make complex music come alive on the printed page through musical description of such brilliance that it inspired Johan before he had heard any of the music, in exactly the same way that Deryck Cooke's description of the Gothic inspired me all those years ago).

As I (keep on) repeating Brian deserves no less. Others may well however deserve similar good fortune. And...it may well be that posterity will deal these composers a better hand.Look at the rediscovery of Bruckner and Mahler or-at a less exalted level-the rediscovery and revival of so much late 19th century and early 20th century British music(NOT all of it deserved imho ;D). Fortunate indeed the composer-like Richard Arnell-who lives long enough to still be alive when the revival commences. No such good fortune for others :(

.....and I won't live for ever so I am not just going to sit back and let posterity make the final judgment. I shall go on singing the praises of those composers I believe unjustly neglected :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 06, 2012, 09:06:53 AM
Sing on, by all means, Colin.
The Daniel Jones symphonies I have heard so far are impressive. Arnell is very strong, too. And Orr's First Symphony I wouldn't have missed for the world, wonderful piece (thanks to John Whitmore). Symphonists like Frankel and Wellesz interest me too, and I want to make more time for them. So - I do what I can to listen to composers really deserving of my time. Dyson's only symphony is a perennial favourite, too - the final bars are unforgettable. And I could go on...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 06, 2012, 11:08:05 AM
In case anyone doesnt know hmv are offering allot of the Dutton cds,including the new Brian cd of the Violin Concerto (etc),for £6.00 post free! I just ordered Boughton's opera 'The Queen of Cornwall' (a 2cd set),now,for the same price!! (£18.12 from Amazon!). A 2cd Boughton opera for six quid!!!! :) :) :)
The dispatch date for the cds,"usually 14 to 17 days! So,if you want them for £6,it seems you might have to wait! :(

I ordered the Brian cd from the Dutton site,however,as an incentive,for them to (hopefully!) record some more!!

For anyone tempted by their new Alan Bush cd! Not wanting to deny Dutton some business;but I have just downloaded all the pieces on the cd from the AMF site! (these are from broadcasts,of course,not the new Dutton!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 06, 2012, 06:51:51 PM
My experience with HMV is that they CAN take ages to deliver and if your chomping at the bit........... ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 07, 2012, 12:08:52 AM
Daniel Jones is taking over this board. Seriously - does anyone own a decent pressing of the Pye LP of the 6th symphony? Could be worth restoring.
Oops - updated later - Lyrita have already issued it. Sorry!!
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Mar04/Jones_symphonies.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 07, 2012, 04:50:35 AM
Pye also issed the John McCabe Symphony No.1 on LP. That WOULD be worth restoring :)

Regarding the Klassic Haus transfers of HB (and I apologise if this has been covered before :)), the Aries LPs appear to have contained:


Symphony 1 The Gothic (1919-27)
unattributed, except 'conductor Sir Adrian Boult'
copy of the 1966 Boult performance
Aries LP 2601 (2LP)

Symphony 2 (1930-31)
attributed to 'Dresden Symphony Orchestra, conductor Ernest Weir'
copy of BBC Symphony Orchestra, conductor Sir Charles Mackerras, 1979
Aries LP 1631 (LP)

Symphony 3 (1931-32)
attributed to 'Lisbon Conservatory Orchestra, conductor Peter Michaels'
copy of Ronald Stevenson, David Wilde (pianos), BBC Symphony Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope, 1974
Aries LP 1617 (LP)

Symphony 4 Das Siegeslied (1932-33)
attributed to 'Valerie MacLennan (sop), Edinburgh Youth Symphony Orchestra and Chorus, conductor Sir Allistair MacKenzie'
copy of Felicity Palmer (sop), BBC Singers, BBC Choral Society, Goldsmith's Choral Union, London Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor John Poole, 1974 Alexandra Palace
Aries LP 1621 (LP)

Symphony 5 Wine of summer (1937) . Symphony 25 (1966)
attributed to 'John Hoffman (baritone), San Paulo Symphony Orchestra, conductor Francisco Teatro' copies of Brian Rayner Cook, New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope, 1976 Alexandra Palace (Symphony 5) and BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, conductor John Canarina, 1976 (Symphony 25)
Aries LP 1629 (LP)

Symphony 8 (1949) . Symphony 14 (1959-60)
attributed to 'Wales Symphony Orchestra, conductor Colin Wilson'
copies of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Myer Fredman, 1971 (Symphony 8) nd London Symphony Orchestra, conductor Edward Downes, 1969 (Symphony 14)
Aries LP 1603 (LP)

Symphony 9 (1951) . Symphony 12 (1957) . Symphony 23 (1965)
attributed to 'Wales Symphony Orchestra, conductor Colin Wilson'
copies of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Myer Fredman, 1971 (Symphony 9) BBC Symphony Orchestra, conductor Norman del Mar, 1966 Proms (Symphony 12) and University of Illinois Symphony Orchestra, conductor Bernard Goodman, 1973 (Symphony 23)
Aries LP 1604 (LP)

Symphony 13 (1959) . Symphony 15 (1960)
attributed to 'Lisbon Conservatory Orchestra, conductor Peter Michaels'
presumably copies of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope
Symphony 17 (1960-61) . Symphony 24 (1965)
attributed to 'Hamburg Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Horst Werner'
presumably copies of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope (Symphony 17) and London Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Myer Fredman (Symphony 24)
Symphony 20 (1962) . Symphony 26 (1966)
attributed to 'Edinburgh Youth Symphony, conducted by John Freedman'
presumably copies of New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Vernon Handley
Aries LP 3601 (3LP)

Symphony 18 (1961) . Symphony 19 (1961) . Symphony 22 (1964-65)
attributed to 'Wales Symphony Orchestra, conductor Colin Wilson'
copies of New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Bryan Fairfax, 1974 (Symphony 18) BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, conductor John Canarina, 1976 (Symphony 19) and Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Myer Fredman, 1971 (Symphony 22)
Aries LP 1611 (LP)

Symphony 28 (1967) . Violin concerto (1935)
attributed to 'Emil Leibowitz (violin), Hamburg Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Horst Werner' copies of Ralph Holmes, New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope, 1969 (concerto)
and New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Leopold Stokowski, 1973 (Symphony 28)
Aries LP 1607 (LP)

If this is correct then there are still several symphonies which could, in theory, be remastered, including Nos. 2, 5, 19 and 26 which would at least plug some current gaps :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 07, 2012, 07:28:54 AM
Am listening to then new Dutton CD. The Tinker's Weddingis excellent, who says Brian can't orchestrate? Halfway through the Violin Concerto, lovely, clear and precise, more to come.
Wanted to get in first :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 07, 2012, 07:31:47 AM
Thanks for the exhaustive list, Colin!


Steve, you lucky so-and-so!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: North Star on November 07, 2012, 09:27:11 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 07, 2012, 12:08:52 AM
Daniel Jones is taking over this board. Seriously - does anyone own a decent pressing of the Pye LP of the 6th symphony? Could be worth restoring.
Oops - updated later - Lyrita have already issued it. Sorry!!
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Mar04/Jones_symphonies.htm

Just sayin' (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10658.0.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mszczuj on November 07, 2012, 09:54:40 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on November 07, 2012, 07:28:54 AM
who says Brian can't orchestrate?

Is there really anybody who says so?

I'm new to Brian, I have listened sufficiently only to the 1st part of Gothic, than to fragments of Fantastic Symphony but is obvious for me that he was absolute master of orchestra who  could use all the possibilities of straussian orchestral language and add to it new more modern values  in the perfectly coherent way. Can't orchestrate? Who can then?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 07, 2012, 11:27:46 AM
Quote from: mszczuj on November 07, 2012, 09:54:40 AM
Is there really anybody who says so?

I'm new to Brian, I have listened sufficiently only to the 1st part of Gothic, than to fragments of Fantastic Symphony but is obvious for me that he was absolute master of orchestra who  could use all the possibilities of straussian orchestral language and add to it new more modern values  in the perfectly coherent way. Can't orchestrate? Who can then?
John has some very interesting views on his orchestration & has the insider viewpoint,having played on the world famous LSSO recording! Maybe he will answer your points!


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 07, 2012, 01:13:17 PM
In the absence of the Master of Delph... The main criticisms of Brian as an orchestrator are levelled at his string-writing ('awkward' and 'unidiomatic') and at the orchestral balance - the conductor has to grade the dynamics for every orchestral group very carefully to make all the lines clear and audible, as Brian's instrumentation is rather bass-heavy and favours the brass over the strings.


Any additions, John?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 07, 2012, 01:57:53 PM
Apologies,Johan. It's just that John was in that recording & he DID have quite a few things to say about Brian's abilities in this area a few ;D pages back! Some of them not terribly complimentary,but very interesting indeed for the laymen here. But that certainly is the gist of it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 07, 2012, 02:00:36 PM
A 'few' pages back, indeed! But yes, John is very precise in his criticism and we had a nice discussion about it here (if we only could find it again...) He'll be back. Like the Terminator.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 07, 2012, 11:01:31 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 07, 2012, 04:50:35 AM
Pye also issed the John McCabe Symphony No.1 on LP. That WOULD be worth restoring :)

Regarding the Klassic Haus transfers of HB (and I apologise if this has been covered before :)), the Aries LPs appear to have contained:


Symphony 1 The Gothic (1919-27)
unattributed, except 'conductor Sir Adrian Boult'
copy of the 1966 Boult performance
Aries LP 2601 (2LP)

Symphony 2 (1930-31)
attributed to 'Dresden Symphony Orchestra, conductor Ernest Weir'
copy of BBC Symphony Orchestra, conductor Sir Charles Mackerras, 1979
Aries LP 1631 (LP)

Symphony 3 (1931-32)
attributed to 'Lisbon Conservatory Orchestra, conductor Peter Michaels'
copy of Ronald Stevenson, David Wilde (pianos), BBC Symphony Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope, 1974
Aries LP 1617 (LP)

Symphony 4 Das Siegeslied (1932-33)
attributed to 'Valerie MacLennan (sop), Edinburgh Youth Symphony Orchestra and Chorus, conductor Sir Allistair MacKenzie'
copy of Felicity Palmer (sop), BBC Singers, BBC Choral Society, Goldsmith's Choral Union, London Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor John Poole, 1974 Alexandra Palace
Aries LP 1621 (LP)

Symphony 5 Wine of summer (1937) . Symphony 25 (1966)
attributed to 'John Hoffman (baritone), San Paulo Symphony Orchestra, conductor Francisco Teatro' copies of Brian Rayner Cook, New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope, 1976 Alexandra Palace (Symphony 5) and BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, conductor John Canarina, 1976 (Symphony 25)
Aries LP 1629 (LP)

Symphony 8 (1949) . Symphony 14 (1959-60)
attributed to 'Wales Symphony Orchestra, conductor Colin Wilson'
copies of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Myer Fredman, 1971 (Symphony 8) nd London Symphony Orchestra, conductor Edward Downes, 1969 (Symphony 14)
Aries LP 1603 (LP)

Symphony 9 (1951) . Symphony 12 (1957) . Symphony 23 (1965)
attributed to 'Wales Symphony Orchestra, conductor Colin Wilson'
copies of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Myer Fredman, 1971 (Symphony 9) BBC Symphony Orchestra, conductor Norman del Mar, 1966 Proms (Symphony 12) and University of Illinois Symphony Orchestra, conductor Bernard Goodman, 1973 (Symphony 23)
Aries LP 1604 (LP)

Symphony 13 (1959) . Symphony 15 (1960)
attributed to 'Lisbon Conservatory Orchestra, conductor Peter Michaels'
presumably copies of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope
Symphony 17 (1960-61) . Symphony 24 (1965)
attributed to 'Hamburg Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Horst Werner'
presumably copies of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope (Symphony 17) and London Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Myer Fredman (Symphony 24)
Symphony 20 (1962) . Symphony 26 (1966)
attributed to 'Edinburgh Youth Symphony, conducted by John Freedman'
presumably copies of New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Vernon Handley
Aries LP 3601 (3LP)

Symphony 18 (1961) . Symphony 19 (1961) . Symphony 22 (1964-65)
attributed to 'Wales Symphony Orchestra, conductor Colin Wilson'
copies of New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Bryan Fairfax, 1974 (Symphony 18) BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, conductor John Canarina, 1976 (Symphony 19) and Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Myer Fredman, 1971 (Symphony 22)
Aries LP 1611 (LP)

Symphony 28 (1967) . Violin concerto (1935)
attributed to 'Emil Leibowitz (violin), Hamburg Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Horst Werner' copies of Ralph Holmes, New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope, 1969 (concerto)
and New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Leopold Stokowski, 1973 (Symphony 28)
Aries LP 1607 (LP)

If this is correct then there are still several symphonies which could, in theory, be remastered, including Nos. 2, 5, 19 and 26 which would at least plug some current gaps :)
Thanks for this. Before seeking these LPs out can you take a look again at the list and tell me which ones have already been posted by MVS from the broadcast tapes - his copies are generally superb. No point in transferring from vinyl what is already out there in potentially better sound. Can you help?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 07, 2012, 11:11:36 PM
I'm hearing new things in all four works on the new disc. The symphony comes over very well, it's clearly a good work with excellent ideas. It's great to hear the English Suite recorded professionally, although it turns out that the amateur performance wasn't so far off; there's some very colourful orchestration now more clearly apparent.
I'm now listening to the violin concerto for the third time, it is a work I know well and have even heard live; there's something not quite right and I've been trying to think what it could be. .....It's the recording, it's slightly recessed and the violin is recessed even more. The perfomance of soloist, orchestra and conductor are impeccable. I'll be interested to hear other opinions.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 07, 2012, 11:26:07 PM
Interesting observations, Steve. I'll be able to hear the CD for myself only next week. When did you hear the VC live? Was it at St James's Church, Piccadilly, like me, with Marat Bisengaliev
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 08, 2012, 12:33:28 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 07, 2012, 02:00:36 PM
A 'few' pages back, indeed! But yes, John is very precise in his criticism and we had a nice discussion about it here (if we only could find it again...) He'll be back. Like the Terminator.

Good moaning. I was just p*ssing by. Maybe the pdf file I made for Klassic Haus would be of interest. You can get it from the link below. This highlights the general shambles you encounter with a Brian score - or at least the general shambles as it stood in 1972. This is, of course, a separate point to his orchestration skills but you may like to read it. I don't think it's fair to say that Brian couldn't orchestrate. That's not my opinion. It's just that it's not something he was especially good at and it certainly wasn't a strength. I don't know enough about Brian's background but much of his music sounds like somebody "having a go" rather than somebody who has been trained in the art of orchestration. Again, please don't bite my head off but that's how it sounds. The string writing is certainly clumsy but if you recall the pre-Proms Gothic discussion, musicians who took part referred to his clumsiness/awkwardness - and that wasn't just string players. Simpson also thought he was rough and clumsy - now he COULD orchestrate!! In terms of balance (Johan's point) I think that's the conductor's job and isn't a major issue with Brian. Delius looks peculiar on the printed page but Beecham put huge amounts of effort in and brought it to life. I happen to believe that Delius was a great orchestrator and will never forget the thrill of playing Brigg Fair all those years ago. Everything is under the fingers, Delius knew exactly what he was doing and the beauty of the sound world is undeniable. Putting to one side for a moment the actual musical merits of Malcolm Arnold (I quite like him) there is simply no doubt that he was a master of the orchestra. He was an orchestral player and knew from years  of experience how to get an orchestra to "sound". Ditto Strauss, Debussy, Rimsky. There are too many passages in Brian that suggest that he didn't have an intimate knowledge of the individual instruments of the orchestra. This is a handicap but not the end of the world. Of course, some people will claim that he was stretching the orchestra. No he wasn't. His music is tonal and not especially difficult to play. It can be annoying to play ;D. If it's that difficult how can you explain that a group of kids aged 14 to 18 who weren't specialist music students in a small English county had a very respectable stab at performing it? Doesn't really add up does it? It's just clumsily written - passages where you have to cross the strings etc in a way that you wouldn't have to had the composer really understood what the issues were. Brian's not the only guilty one - there's a violin passage in the middle of the 1st movement of Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances that is virtually unplayable and you have to cheat your way through it. On the piano (in it's original guise) it's a piece of cake. On the fiddle it's a nightmare. One of Rach's rare mistakes. There's more to life than orchestral mastery. I love Tippett but he's no natural. Some of it is horrible to play. I don't particulary like Britten but he was a master of his trade. Mendelssohn was a master but I don't like much of his work. Here's the crux - if Brian had been in the Strauss class with his use of the orchestra it may well be that many of his rough and ready, unpolished charms would have been removed and his music would have been less appealing. Simpson said he was "as rough as a bear's a**e" but it may be the roughness that gives it some of the appeal. Was Brian a master of the orchestra? Give me strength. Does it really matter? I won't lose any sleep over it but let's not make huge claims about the bloke's ability. Just enjoy it for what it is. I enjoy some of it - far more than I used to - but I still have to listen through the orchestra on occasion wishing that some passages had been re-scored. So there. Am I welcome back or should I scarper to the Khachaturian board? Don't even get me started on HIM......

http://www.klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-No--10-No--21---LSSO.php
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 08, 2012, 12:50:08 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 06, 2012, 09:06:53 AM
Sing on, by all means, Colin.
The Daniel Jones symphonies I have heard so far are impressive. Arnell is very string, too. And Orr's First Symphony I wouldn't have missed for the world, wonderful piece (thanks to John Whitmore). Symphonists like Frankel and Wellesz interest me too, and I want to make more time for them. So - I do what I can to listen to composers really deserving of my time. Dyson's only symphony is a perennial favourite, too - the final bars are unforgettable. And I could go on...
Parry's Symphonic Variations. Wallop.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 08, 2012, 02:26:33 AM
John, very nicely explained, I have no quibbles with anything you say there.

Johan, Yes, I was at Piccadilly, but I'm now sure, then, that I must have heard the concerto twice because I heard it at St Johns, Smith Square as well, back a long, long time ago.

Our paths must have crossed several times.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 08, 2012, 02:40:42 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on November 08, 2012, 02:26:33 AM
John, very nicely explained, I have no quibbles with anything you say there.

Johan, Yes, I was at Piccadilly, but I'm now sure, then, that I must have heard the concerto twice because I heard it at St Johns, Smith Square as well, back a long, long time ago.

Our paths must have crossed several times.
I'll hang around a bit longer then. Reading the comments on the new VC recording I hope the violin image isn't set back as much as the otherwise world beating BIS Sibelius.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 08, 2012, 02:42:37 AM
Question for Steve: can you let us hear a snippet of the VC, using Audacity?...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 08, 2012, 02:53:35 AM
Jingle from the English Suite reminds me of Harry Potter. Could John Williams be a Brianite?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 08, 2012, 03:14:23 AM
Link to the opening. The violin almost disappears into the background. Or is it me?
http://www.mediafire.com/?ddxcxghx2brc4xs
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 08, 2012, 03:19:02 AM
I have no difficulty in extricating the violin solo from its intricate surroundings. It sounds very good to these ears (listened with headphones).


P.S. But yes - the violin is more part of the orchestral ensemble than in the other recordings.


Oh, and thanks, Steve!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 08, 2012, 03:33:33 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on November 08, 2012, 03:14:23 AM
Link to the opening. The violin almost disappears into the background. Or is it me?
http://www.mediafire.com/?ddxcxghx2brc4xs
It's spot on. A lifelike image, not an elephant sized violin. She's very good but that's no surprise at all.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 08, 2012, 03:38:46 AM
Do you mean Steve is spot-on, or that the sound is just 'realistic', John?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 08, 2012, 03:47:24 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 08, 2012, 03:38:46 AM
Do you mean Steve is spot-on, or that the sound is just 'realistic', John?
I mean the engineering is spot on. The solo violin is brought forward just a little but it's still very much part of the fabric, as it should be, instead of being plonked on your lap with the orchestra somewhere in the distance. Compared to the BIS Sibelius the fiddle on this new Brian is really forward - but the BIS is natural to the point of not hearing the soloist and it doesn't work. Soloists need a little boost when you just have your ears and not your eyes to work with. I look forward to hearing the full thing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 08, 2012, 03:50:40 AM
Ah. Well, then we are in agreement. Yes, I can't wait either.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 08, 2012, 04:54:19 AM
I received my copy today. I haven't got as far as the Symphony or the English Suite;but I've listened to the Violin Concerto & it sounds pretty good to me. Last week the GP had a look in my ear & found allot of surplus wax :(,so if I can hear it.....and these Sony headphones are a bit 'boomy'! ;D

This is the first performance of the VC I have enjoyed since the Holmes. I like this. I'm very happy with it. I didn't like the Bisengaliev at all! :(

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 08, 2012, 05:28:23 AM
My copy arrived today as well.....along with the Arnell, Alan Bush and Bax etc disc :) :)

Have listened to the Violin Concerto so far. It sounds good to me....but then most things do ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 08, 2012, 05:35:18 AM
I am fast becoming rather envious...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 08, 2012, 05:37:07 AM
Mine's been dispatched from England. That means it could be here tomorrow...or five days from now due to the vagaries of mail across the Channel.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 08, 2012, 05:39:53 AM
At least,I'm happy with it so far! ;D Of course,it would sound a bit different on speakers! I must admit,I don't like Violin,Viola or Cello Concerto's very much. My loss I know,but after the Mendelssohn & Tchaikovsky,I do tend to avoid them. Having said that,I DO like Moeran's efforts in the genre! And I'm going to have another crack at the Delius concerto's very soon!
  To my ears,not being a musician like John (although I can play chopsticks & The March of the Wooden Soldiers! ;D) I have always had a feeling,even with the wonderful Holmes performance,that Brian's orchestration is a bit too loud,or thick at times. There are periods where the solo instrument is too obviously struggling to be heard through the general rumpus around it;and I don't think a true master of his craft would have allowed this!
On the other hand,the experience of a musician steering his way through some colossal sounds to a viscerally,edge of your seat conclusion,is probably one of the reasons why I find this concerto such a thrilling experience. (In this sense,the choice of the original subtitle of 'Heroic' was very appropriate).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 08, 2012, 05:52:25 AM
Well, I'll wait and see what you all think after hearing the whole thing and if you are still in agreement, it's off to the quacks I go.

To me, there seem to be quieter notes missing which has a disconcerting effect. Weird.

Perhaps a disadvantage of knowing the work well?

I don't want go deaf as well as having trouble with vision. :'(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 08, 2012, 06:16:41 AM
I am listening on headphones,of course! Also,the excitement of auditioning a new cd of a favourite composer. Although,not my favourite! (I'm trying to think who that might be?). I obviously need to listen more,before I can really make my mind up. But I really DID enjoy what I heard. I HATED the Naxos performance!!! >:(
In terms of recording balance. One of the worst I've ever heard was the Hyperion recording of Holst's Choral Symphony,a lovely work which I feel has,definately,more plus points than negative points. All I seemed to do,while I was listening to that cd,was,endlessly,fiddle around with the volume control! :( As soon as emi reissued their recording it was off to the charity shop,with it!! Like allot of people,the emi recording was the first one I ever heard & very happy with it,I am! :)
  Wait a minute,now? Don't tell me I'm the only one who thought the Hyperion recording was c***?!! :(

It must be a very tricky work to balance!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 08, 2012, 08:12:36 AM
It's great to hear a digital recording of the thirteenth. This compact symphony is so full of atmosphere,colour & incident. It has to be one of the most approachable of Brian's later works. I'm only sorry the the duration of a cd is too short to allow room for the equally absorbing,fourteenth!
Instead we get the English Suite No 4. This is the first time I have ever heard this piece. Lovely,magical,atmospheric miniatures that imho,deserve to be popular. And this is the man of 'Brian mythology' who composed dozens of ridiculously oversized symphonies & didn't know when to stop!! Now,if ONLY the evocatively subtitled English Suite No2 'Night portraits' would show up!! I'm sure this team would treat it to a a glorious premiere recording! Alas! But one has to hope!
  Finally,do my ears deceive me (apologies to Hattoff!) but isn't this a more fun performance than the Mackerras? Of course,it's a new cd,so maybe the excitement is just getting to me!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 08, 2012, 08:23:02 AM
Thanks, cilgwyn! Next week cannot come soon enough for me!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 08, 2012, 08:43:36 AM
I think this could easily become one of my favourite Brian cds! And don't forget,it's ONLY £6 post free from HMV.......if you don't mind waiting 14 to 17 days!!! ??? :o :(

I'm starting to wish they would do the Symphonic Dances from The Tigers,now. The old Forlane performances are very good,but elderly now.....and most importantly,even when they aren't an expensive deletion,anyone wanting them has to invest in an often expensive box set!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 08, 2012, 08:44:47 AM
This Dutton cd is a very intelligently,well thought out selection,indeed! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 08, 2012, 08:46:20 AM
HMV is ridiculously cheap, even undercutting my own HBS (£7.50)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on November 08, 2012, 09:04:46 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 08, 2012, 08:43:36 AMI'm starting to wish they would do the Symphonic Dances from The Tigers,now. The old Forlane performances are very good,but elderly now.....and most importantly,even when they aren't an expensive deletion,anyone wanting them has to invest in an often expensive box set!

There is a really excellent performance of the Symphonic Variations on the recent Toccata disc of operatic excerpts - the whole disc is one of the best advertisements for Brian's music that I know of:

(http://www.toccataclassics.com/cms/tmp/thumbs/TOCC0113-jc-cover-225x-D004E9C0.jpg)

Otherwise, the Forlane recording of all six movements can be downloaded from Amazon - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Orchestral-Pieces-Tigers/dp/B001UJOZGA/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1352397436&sr=8-5 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Orchestral-Pieces-Tigers/dp/B001UJOZGA/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1352397436&sr=8-5).

:)

Quote from: cilgwyn on November 08, 2012, 08:44:47 AMThis Dutton cd is a very intelligently,well thought out selection,indeed! :)

Agreed (just listening to it at the moment)!

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 08, 2012, 09:07:18 AM
Quote from: Albion on Today at 19:04:46 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg673786#msg673786)
Agreed (just listening to it at the moment)!

;D



Aargh!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 08, 2012, 09:23:08 AM
Everyone's got it except you & Sarge!
I feel for you,I really do! ;D

Incidentally,when I saw that 'Aaagh!' My first thought was,'What I have written now?!!' :(

Regarding the Toccata cd. Yes,they do include the Symphonic Variations,but not the other 'bits'! I should point out,it was just a passing thought. Brian wise,I DO think there are other more important priorities at the moment. And yes,there is the download! Very useful,I remember downloading them myself;but,even I ended up forking out for a s/h copy of the Forlane set;which is still worth seeking out imo! You just wait for a reissue or a generously minded seller to show up. A real trail blazer that one. Ahead of it's time,which should be in every self respecting Brianite collection! ;D But maybe it's just nostalgia?!!

Having said that. If you DO  download,you can avoid that annoying cd 'side break'!

Now I think I'll make a cdr of ALL the professionally performed English Suites!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 08, 2012, 09:29:15 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on Today at 19:23:08 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg673788#msg673788)
1) Everyone's got it except you & Sarge!
    I feel for you,I really do!

2) Now I think I'll make a cdr of ALL the professionally performed English Suites!



1) My fate is unbearable.
2) Wait until after the Naxos comes out, with English Suite No. 1.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 08, 2012, 09:48:10 AM
There is no doubt in my mind that Brabbins is well-inside the Brian sound world as the composer intended it to be :)

The Symphony No.13 has never sounded better-not that we have much standard of comparison ;D The opening is suitably baleful, without being overdone, and the symphony moves forward with all that quirky Brianic sense of "ordered chaos" with the conductor clearly having a sure grip of the music. That is what comes of a conductor who has learned his trade conducting some incredibly complex and demanding ultra-modern music coming now to Brian :) :) :) He can let the music grow to one of those typical glorious Brian crescendo passages(around 8 minutes in) which is then suddenly cut off to be succeeded by that still, quiet passage where the solo violin sings alone, almost unaccompanied......mysterious yet magical and you just know that Brabbins is totally in control and command :) Brabbins seems to have the ability (helped, naturally, by the recording) to let every strand be heard properly.....for a change ;D

.....Sorry, Johan........this MUST be torture for you ;D ;D ;D

Oh....and yes, the English Suite No.4 is delightful plus "The Tinker's Wedding" is enormous fun :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 08, 2012, 09:50:53 AM
.......AND the end of the symphony is pure aural splendour :) :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 08, 2012, 09:51:41 AM
NOOOOOOOOOO
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 08, 2012, 09:57:34 AM
What extraordinary music the Fourth English Suite is ;D Superbly orchestrated...totally various in sound from one movement to another(one has absolutely no idea what is coming next ;D). Amazing work.....SO much better than I had thought it was :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 08, 2012, 11:12:16 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 08, 2012, 09:23:08 AM
Everyone's got it except you & Sarge!

We're on the wrong side of that watery ditch  :(

Perhaps the hardest working woman in the Bundespost will have a surprise for me, early tomorrow morning.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 08, 2012, 11:30:14 AM
Regarding the Aries LPs and the MVS downloads elsewhere....I shall have to leave it up to others to assist since I cannot check which symphonies were downloaded from that source;
I have no access of any sort to the forum in question ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 08, 2012, 12:38:13 PM
You will all be pleased to know that the audio problem I had with the new CD is resolved.  :-*
I got out my old Sennheiser headphones and all became clear, in fact, as said above, one of the best CD recordings ever heard. Why it should sound so bad on a cheap pair of headphones is a question for Mephistopheles >:D as poorer recordings sound fine on them. Perhaps, therein lies its own answer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 08, 2012, 12:39:37 PM
Good to hear it (for you and for us)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 08, 2012, 01:01:06 PM
You lucky people, my Dutton disc hasn't arrived this week, and as I'm going away next week, I'll have to wait until the week after.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 09, 2012, 12:18:49 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 08, 2012, 11:30:14 AM
Regarding the Aries LPs and the MVS downloads elsewhere....I shall have to leave it up to others to assist since I cannot check which symphonies were downloaded from that source;
I have no access of any sort to the forum in question ::) ::) ::)
Colin, you are missing out here. Some of Mark's transfers are extremely good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 09, 2012, 12:56:57 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on November 08, 2012, 12:38:13 PM
You will all be pleased to know that the audio problem I had with the new CD is resolved.  :-*
I got out my old Sennheiser headphones and all became clear, in fact, as said above, one of the best CD recordings ever heard. Why it should sound so bad on a cheap pair of headphones is a question for Mephistopheles >:D as poorer recordings sound fine on them. Perhaps, therein lies its own answer.
Low quality phones will cope with and make poor recordings sound OK. Decent phones are required to get all the detail contained in good recordings. Me? I only use phones on my hols with an MP3 player. At home there's only one way to hear music properly and that's by using high quality gear with decent speakers and that's where I've spent the dosh.  The problem with phones is that the left ear can't hear the information coming out of the right channel and vice versa. It's all very false. To get a true stereo image both ears need to hear both channels. So it's speakers for me. Maybe I'm lucky in that I live in a largish detached house and don't annoy the neighbours.
PS I sometimes use phones when Mrs W comes home. She hates proper music >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on November 09, 2012, 02:14:29 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 08, 2012, 11:30:14 AMRegarding the Aries LPs and the MVS downloads elsewhere....I shall have to leave it up to others to assist since I cannot check which symphonies were downloaded from that source;
I have no access of any sort to the forum in question ::) ::) ::)

Colin, all the downloads very kindly donated by MVS are in my archive at AMF (having been transferred from UC) -

The Tigers; Symphony No.2 (Mackerras and Head); Symphony No.3 (Pope); Symphony No.4 (Handford and Poole); Symphony No.5 (Pope); Symphony No.6 (Robinson); Symphony No.7 (Newstone); Symphony No.8 (Fredman); Symphony No.9 (Fredman); Prologue from Faust (Mackerras); Symphony No.12 (Del Mar); Agamemnon (Armstrong); Symphony No.18 (Fairfax); Symphony No.21 (Downes); Symphony No.23 (Goodman); Symphony No.26 (Smith); Symphony No.29 (Smith); Symphony No.32 (Head).

The only one acknowledged as originating from an Aries LP is No.8 (Aries 1603).

:) 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 09, 2012, 02:16:40 AM
Many thanks, Albion, for taking the trouble!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on November 09, 2012, 02:25:25 AM
No problem, Johan.

:)

I hope that your Dutton disc arrives soon - it's a real quality release as you'll have gathered from other reactions (btw, the Bush and Arnell discs are also excellent).

:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 09, 2012, 02:34:06 AM
I am waiting patiently, hoping the flurry of Brian releases will embolden the concert programmers in London... Why shouldn't I dream?  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 09, 2012, 07:17:11 AM
Quote from: Albion on November 09, 2012, 02:14:29 AM
Colin, all the downloads very kindly donated by MVS are in my archive at AMF (having been transferred from UC) -

The Tigers; Symphony No.2 (Mackerras and Head); Symphony No.3 (Pope); Symphony No.4 (Handford and Poole); Symphony No.5 (Pope); Symphony No.6 (Robinson); Symphony No.7 (Newstone); Symphony No.8 (Fredman); Symphony No.9 (Fredman); Prologue from Faust (Mackerras); Symphony No.12 (Del Mar); Agamemnon (Armstrong); Symphony No.18 (Fairfax); Symphony No.21 (Downes); Symphony No.23 (Goodman); Symphony No.26 (Smith); Symphony No.29 (Smith); Symphony No.32 (Head).

The only one acknowledged as originating from an Aries LP is No.8 (Aries 1603).

:)

Thanks, John :)

I had downloaded all of these recordings but had no means of checking out who had downloaded which file.

My lack of access to the forum in question is not my decision :( I am banned from access by the "gentlemen" who run it >:(

John....if I was asked to nominate decent quality recordings(made by MVS)  for remastering to cd then I would suggest Nos. 2, 3, 4 and 5 on the grounds that No.5 is not to be obtained otherwise on cd and that the others are in performances which could be improved upon.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 09, 2012, 07:26:10 AM
Quote from: Albion on November 09, 2012, 02:25:25 AM
No problem, Johan.

:)

I hope that your Dutton disc arrives soon - it's a real quality release as you'll have gathered from other reactions (btw, the Bush and Arnell discs are also excellent).

:D

I agree about the Alan Bush cd. It is good to see Bush getting some deserved attention at last-the Dance Overture is good fun and the Dorian Passacaglia and Fugue is a particularly fine piece. I am not sure that the Lascaux Symphony is Bush at his best(he was in his eighties when he wrote it) but it is good to have it on disc.

I am listening at present to the Dutton viola disc....keeping Arnell for last :) At least we now do have the Bax Phantasy back on cd and the Theodore Holland work is attractive and atmospheric.

Incidentally, if you have bought those discs you will notice that the Alan Bush Trust subsidised the Bush disc, the Tertis Foundation the viola disc and the HB Society the Brian disc.
I suspect that Arnell may have left quite a bit of money (though I have no hard evidence for this). Sadly there is no Daniel Jones Society/Trust/Foundation and the same can be said for Arnold Cooke and William Wordsworth :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 09, 2012, 07:59:33 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 09, 2012, 07:17:11 AM
Thanks, John :)

I had downloaded all of these recordings but had no means of checking out who had downloaded which file.

My lack of access to the forum in question is not my decision :( I am banned from access by the "gentlemen" who run it >:(

John....if I was asked to nominate decent quality recordings(made by MVS)  for remastering to cd then I would suggest Nos. 2, 3, 4 and 5 on the grounds that No.5 is not to be obtained otherwise on cd and that the others are in performances which could be improved upon.
I've dropped Curt a line. Let's see what he thinks.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 09, 2012, 08:18:35 AM
Good stuff ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mountain Goat on November 09, 2012, 08:35:19 AM
I ordered the new Dutton CD yesterday - judging by the reactions to it so far I certainly haven't made a mistake, can't wait for it to arrive!

Quote from: cilgwyn on November 04, 2012, 03:52:21 PM
I just hope the postman puts it through the right letterbox.

How dare you cast aspersions on the competence of my esteemed colleagues!  :P ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 09, 2012, 10:35:41 AM
uh oh! :o ;D Actually,they're very good,considering all the pressure they're under! It's the couriers I worry about,with their sat-nav! :(

I get other peoples cds now & again;but they're always pop music! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 09, 2012, 01:09:39 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 09, 2012, 02:34:06 AM
I am waiting patiently, hoping the flurry of Brian releases will embolden the concert programmers in London... Why shouldn't I dream?  :)

"The Dreamer of Delft" ;D ;D   You' ll be lucky :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 09, 2012, 02:31:55 PM
Well,the Gothic at the Proms?! Dreams can come true! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mszczuj on November 09, 2012, 11:52:03 PM
Quote from: BachQ on June 10, 2007, 03:58:17 AM
Why is this called a symphony, when it's really like a sinfonietta?

Part one:

2 piccolos (1 also flute), 3 flutes (1 also alto flute), 2 oboes,  oboe d’amore, cor anglais,  bass oboe, Eb clarinet, 2  Bb clarinets, basset horn, bass clarinet, 3 bassoons, contrabassoon, 6 horns, Eb cornet, 4 trumpets in F, bass trumpet, 3 tenor trombones, 2 tubas, 2 sets (min 3 drums) timpani, 2 harps, organ, celesta, min 8 percussion:  glockenspiel, xylophone, 2 bass drums, 3 side drums, tambourine, pair cymbals, gong, triangle;  strings [say 16.16.12.10.8]

Part two:

Soprano, alto, tenor, bass soloists, large children’s choir, 2 large mixed double choruses [in practice 4 large SATB choirs]
orchestra: 2 piccolos (1 also flute), 6 flutes (1 also alto flute), 6 oboes (1 also oboe d’amore, 1 also bass oboe), 2 cors anglais, 2 Eb clarinets (1 also Bb clarinet), 4  Bb clarinets, 2 basset horns, 2 bass clarinets, contrabass clarinet, 3 bassoons, 2 contrabassoons, 8 horns, 2 Eb cornets, 4 trumpets in F, bass trumpet, 3 tenor trombones, bass trombone, contrabass trombone, 2 euphoniums, 2 tubas, 2 sets (min 3 [in practice 4] drums) timpani, 2 harps, organ, celesta, min 18 percussion:  glockenspiel, xylophone, 2 bass drums, 3 side drums, long drum, 2 tambourines, 6 pairs cymbals, gong, thunder machine [not thunder sheet], tubular bells, chimes, chains, 2 triangles, birdscare;   strings (20.20.16.14.12)
4 off stage groups: each containing 2 horns, 2 trumpets, 2 tenor trombones, set (min 3 drums) of timpani
(in summary: 32 wind, 24 on stage brass, 24 off stage brass, 6 timpanists, 18 percussion, 4 keyboards and harps, 82 strings - total orchestra c190 players, plus adult choir of min 500 [assumes largely professionals], children’s choir of 100, 4 soloists = c800)

I would say that the number of the instruments is not so important.  What is really funny is the number of the diffrent sets of instruments playing together in the same time (instruments playing and voices singing). Or in the same episode.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 10, 2012, 12:43:41 AM
Colin,
Curt will give the other Aries issues that you suggested a go so let's see what transpires. His Brian sales have been good and he's getting artistically hooked as well. The MVS tapes are pretty good but maybe Curt can just get a couple of extra percentage points out of them. He usually conjures something up. Will keep you posted.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 10, 2012, 01:15:32 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on 09-11-2012, 23:09:39 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg674051#msg674051)
"The Dreamer of Delft" ;D ;D   You' ll be lucky :(



>
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 09, 2012, 02:31:55 PM
Well,the Gothic at the Proms?! Dreams can come true! :)


You are both right.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 10, 2012, 04:24:23 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 10, 2012, 12:43:41 AM
Colin,
Curt will give the other Aries issues that you suggested a go so let's see what transpires. His Brian sales have been good and he's getting artistically hooked as well. The MVS tapes are pretty good but maybe Curt can just get a couple of extra percentage points out of them. He usually conjures something up. Will keep you posted.

All we can ask for at this stage :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 10, 2012, 08:16:03 AM
Increasingly of the view that the Alan Bush Dorian Passacaglia and Fugue on another Dutton disc is an absolute masterpiece and that HB fans should invest in this one too ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 10, 2012, 08:52:15 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 10, 2012, 08:16:03 AM
Increasingly of the view that the Alan Bush Dorian Passacaglia and Fugue on another Dutton disc is an absolute masterpiece and that HB fans should invest in this one too ;D

What about the coupled Fourth Symphony. Any good? What's it like?

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 10, 2012, 01:13:34 PM
I would buy any and all of the remaining Aries LPs if Claus transferred them, I'd be particularly interested in 26. I'd like to hear Brian's "sole use of the wood block" (BBC announcer) (difficult to hear on any of the current recordings).

:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 10, 2012, 02:02:23 PM
A little off topic,I know;but I seem to recall that Aries released some recordings of other composers at the time. I think there might have been a Malcolm Arnold Symphony & interestingly,if I remember correctly,Peter Racine Fricker's Fifth Symphony for organ & orchestra? I wonder what the sound quality of THAT Lp was like,in comparison to (no offence intended!) the upload at AMF (Dundonnells,I believe?)? It would be interesting to know what Lps of other composers they DID produce? I remember Michael G Thomas had them in their lists. I believe the majority of Aries releases were of Brian,though?

Finally,I am tempted to say,I wish they'd released some Daniel Jones Symphonies (No2,particularly!).....but they were a pirate operation,so I don't think I should ;D & I have no idea when the Aries operation ended? (Early to mid eighties,perhaps?).

I may have been tempted,though!! ::) :o

Ahem! Back to Brian!! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 10, 2012, 02:32:42 PM
The Alan Bush Lascaux Symphony-to answer Sarge's question- is attractive enough, with an interesting use of piano, but, to be honest, makes less impact on me than the Dorian Passacaglia and Fugue. As I said earlier, it is good to have it but it is by no means the equal of a number of other British symphonies both recorded and unrecorded.

Cilgwyn...you are correct about the Aries LP of the Fricker Symphony No.5. Now that is a work I would like to see remastered for cd to replace my old download(no offence taken ;D)
(Btw I have just posed a Don Gillis catalogue on AMF.....through gritted teeth ::) ;D)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 10, 2012, 02:50:10 PM
Fricker's Fifth Symphony for Organ & Orchestra, remastered from the Aries Lp to cd! Hint,hint,eh?!! ;D

Don Gillis,eh?! Must start a thread!! ;D Do quite like his music when I'm in the right mood,though! Symphonies No's 5 & 6 are not bad,mind! Don Gillis in an unusually thoughtful mood!! :o A bit of a suprise,those two! :)

Sarge! There are uploads of these Alan Bush pieces at the AMF Forum! (From broadcasts,I should add. But I think you like it here?!)

Another spin of that new Brian cd now,I think! :),which will be quite a change from Oskar Fried's 1924 recording of Bruckner's Seventh,which has been on most of the night!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 10, 2012, 03:25:27 PM
A lovely performance of 'The Tinker's Wedding Comedy Overture. This is the first time I have really enjoyed this piece. If Mackerras didn't like it,Brabbins presumably does! ::) Unlike the original Lp this recording of the Comedy Overture really does have a sense of impish fun. You can almost see the twinkle in Brian's eye! :) This has really changed my opinion of the piece,from,'It's okay,but can't wait to get to the symphonies,to,'Hm? I think I really like this!' :)
Maybe it could become more popular among Brianites,now! Who knows?
A great aperitif for the meat that follows! Very well chosen! :) :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 11, 2012, 05:32:14 AM
Have a feeling 'The Tinkers Wedding Comedy Overture Isn't going to be as popular as the Gothic! ;D But interestingly,it is an example of another Brian opus which is available in more than one recording.
I've got the Burlesque Variations on now. Some of Brian's orchestration is very complex here. In other words,there's a heck of allot going on here. In the past I have tended to find this a quite difficult piece to follow,unlike the Gothic (!) most of which I can either 'hear' in my head,or even whistle! Although,the first time I heard the choral movements,they sounded opaque & amorphous. I remember being disappointed. The first three purely orchestral movements were so compelling. But after two or three traversals I was hooked.
  Here again,in this much earlier work,the same muli-layered complexity. This isn't a hum-along,with a big hit tune in the middle somewhere,like the Enigma Variations & thank goodness for the good old program buttons.
At last,this dazzling example of early Brian is opening up it's innermost secrets! And the ending is fantastic!

Still can't find the Hull Youth SO set? :( Could it have been sent down to the charity shop by mistake? :( And one of the two cds was a cdr!!! :( Someone's going to really pleased about that! :o :(
Still,I've got the set on my external drive! I'm just going to have to make some cdrs.

Okay,more HB coming up. Some wonderful cds here. I think a little time spent on the English Suite No 5 & then,Suite No 4 & Symphony 13!
Marvellous,isn't it?!! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on November 11, 2012, 11:32:24 AM
As it's Remembrance Sunday I thought I ought to listen to an appropriate piece of classical music - other than Nimrod!

So I dug out my Naxos disc of Adrian Leaper conducting Havergal Brian's For Valour ("For Valour", of course, is the inscription on the Victoria Cross.)
I think I've only listened to this piece once, and that was a few years back.

:o Wow!!! :o Perhaps I wasn't in the mood the last time, but this time round I thought what a marvellous piece this is. Stirring, tuneful, full of Elgarian nobilmente and with a rabble-rousing finish - why isn't this a Proms favourite?

I always thought that In Memoriam was HB's most approachable work, but now I'm not sure that the title shouldn't go to For Valour.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 11, 2012, 11:59:16 AM
Yes, For Valour, one of Brian's earliest orchestral works, is stirring stuff. When the critic Gerald Cumberland heard the first performance, he felt (iirc) as if he was being scalped (it is a rather loud piece)...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 12, 2012, 05:15:05 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 11, 2012, 11:59:16 AM
Yes, For Valour, one of Brian's earliest orchestral works, is stirring stuff. When the critic Gerald Cumberland heard the first performance, he felt (iirc) as if he was being scalped (it is a rather loud piece)...
This grabbed my attention so I'm listening to it now. On the whole I think I would prefer to be scalped. It's so hollow, bombastic and embarrassing with really crude string writing. The sort of unmemorable stuff that gets Brian a bad name. The Cameo Classics performance is absolutely atrocious but even the Vienna Phil would struggle to make this sound any good. Sorry but that's how the music sounds to me. I don't like it. Not even the obvious quotation from Heldenleben. I don't like it at all. You may have already guessed that........ >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 12, 2012, 08:10:23 AM
I get the impression you don't like For Valour, John... Yes, it isn't subtle, it's noisy, and it's very early Brian. I don't want it played at my funeral, but I don't hate it either.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 12, 2012, 08:15:16 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 12, 2012, 08:10:23 AM
I get the impression you don't like For Valour, John... Yes, it isn't subtle, it's noisy, and it's very early Brian. I don't want it played at my funeral, but I don't hate it either.
When is it?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 12, 2012, 08:20:36 AM
A week ago.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 12, 2012, 11:30:42 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 12, 2012, 08:15:16 AM
When is it?
:o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 12, 2012, 12:38:16 PM
I take it from the absence of detailed comment and discussion that the new Dutton/HB disc has not yet found its way to Delft ???

I am still particularly taken by both the 13th symphony reading and by the English Suite No.4. The latter really is an unexpectedly delightful work, beautifully scored and a work which is so much better than most other works of its kind by other contemporary composers :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 12, 2012, 12:42:02 PM
I got an email last Friday from the Chairman of the HBS, John Grimshaw, that the CD was on its way. I expect it on Thursday at the latest... Sarge and I are being sorely tested!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 12, 2012, 12:55:57 PM
London>Perth=458 miles
London>Delft= 304 miles    :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 12, 2012, 01:03:48 PM
There is no justice.  :'(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 12, 2012, 01:07:31 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 12, 2012, 12:42:02 PM
I got an email last Friday from the Chairman of the HBS, John Grimshaw, that the CD was on its way. I expect it on Thursday at the latest... Sarge and I are being sorely tested!
Oh well,in a way I sort of envy you. The anticipation. The excitement of opening the package,removing the cling film wrapper,putting it on & listening to it.......for the very first time!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 12, 2012, 01:12:57 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on Today at 23:07:31 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg674710#msg674710)
Oh well,in a way I sort of envy you. The anticipation. The excitement of opening the package,removing the cling film wrapper,putting it on & listening to it.......for the very first time!!



Anticipation and excitement are enviable sensations, but I think I have exhausted them by now. I simply want to hear the bl**dy thing!! Just started listening to the Heriot orchestra and their performance of English Suite No. 4 to console myself...  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 12, 2012, 01:15:36 PM
I received the complete remastered box set of Fawlty Towers the same week! Hadn't seen it for years. The BBC took it off,for the r***Y match! Tut! Tut! As soon as I decide to start watch it again!! >:(

I wish I could think of a good excuse for posting this here! :(

Hopefully,the cd will be with you soon! I think it's easily one of the best Brian releases ever! :)



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 12, 2012, 01:17:06 PM
It will be worth the wait, of that there is no doubt. Have you seen my comments on the Daniel Jones thread, by the way?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 12, 2012, 01:28:24 PM
Yes,I have,actually. I'll come back to you on that soon,in the relevant thread! :) It's been an usually busy day here! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 12, 2012, 01:31:07 PM
I already got that feeling... No rush! I just put Jones' Symphonies 3 and 4 on my mp3 player. I intend to listen to all the 13 symphonies...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 12, 2012, 01:38:57 PM
Still trying to work out exactly why I disliked that Bisengaliev Naxos performance so much! (I suppose I should get them out really & compare them). Somehow the Naxos performance seemed too rushed. He didn't get 'inside' the piece. Yet,I loved this performance as soon as I heard it. Marvellous! Lorraine McAslan really understands the piece. I think this cd will make it allot of new friends;even amongst people who don't usually like Brian.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 12, 2012, 01:46:49 PM
It may be that Bisengaliev was more the virtuoso at that stage of his career and hadn't plumbed the depths of the piece (yet), as Ralph Holmes undoubtedely did, and McAslan presumably does, too...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 12, 2012, 02:51:10 PM
Although I am repeating myself from the Daniel Jones thread, I once again congratulate you on the eloquence and perceptiveness of your comments on the Jones Symphony No.2 :)

.....and, I am more than delighted that Johan is encouraged to listen to more Jones ;D

(Can't resist adding that I recently acquired the complete set of Fawlty Towers episodes free by means which you can guess but which I could not possibly admit to ;D ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 12, 2012, 02:58:52 PM
It's incredible why the Jones Symphony No. 2 hasn't yet been put on CD. Dutton, where art thou?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 12, 2012, 04:15:59 PM
Shouldn't really be writing these here ;D but I have just watched the BBC Four Documentary about Sir Georg Solti on Cathch-Up. In all the (deserved) criticism being currently heaped on the BBC we should remember that the Corporation is capable-as few other broadcasting companies in the world are-of putting together and transmitting the most marvellous Arts programmes :)

(Interesting to learn though how much some of the London Philh. members disliked his conducting style and what they perceived as an imported, brash "American-style" which clashed so much with the more mellow, beautiful "English-sound" to which they were used and which they preferred. I still think that his "Ring Cycle" has never been excelled!!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 12, 2012, 10:53:10 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 12, 2012, 04:15:59 PM
Shouldn't really be writing these here ;D but I have just watched the BBC Four Documentary about Sir Georg Solti on Cathch-Up. In all the (deserved) criticism being currently heaped on the BBC we should remember that the Corporation is capable-as few other broadcasting companies in the world are-of putting together and transmitting the most marvellous Arts programmes :)

(Interesting to learn though how much some of the London Philh. members disliked his conducting style and what they perceived as an imported, brash "American-style" which clashed so much with the more mellow, beautiful "English-sound" to which they were used and which they preferred. I still think that his "Ring Cycle" has never been excelled!!)
I'm surprised that you are surprised. It wasn't just the LPO that felt this way about him I assure you! I agree about the Ring but the glory of the cycle is Decca's production values and engineering nouse. That's where it truly excels.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 13, 2012, 04:00:03 AM
The critics all seemed to love Solti at the time. How his star has fallen! Not being a huge Mahler fan,although I like 1 & 4;I must admit I bought the Decca Solti 2,for the spectacular effects! Anything to brighten the Mahlerian gloom! Although apologies to Dundonnell. I know he loves it! (I think I've got the Klemperer,somewhere?).

Fawlty for free?!! I'd have had enough spare cash for Rising Damp,which I want to buy for my father! :( So far I've got Cheers,Phil Silvers,I love Lucy & Nearest & Dearest lined up! :o ;D

(I presume we're filling in here a little until Johan gets his copy...of the new Brian. cd...not Fawlty?!)


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 13, 2012, 06:41:52 AM
Just checked my cd catalogue to see what Solti I have on disc.......the Bartok Violin Concertos, Handel's "Messiah"( ???), Holst's "Planets", Mahler's 1st and 8th, Schubert's 9th, "The Ring" and the Elgar 1st and 2nd, some Kodaly and "Parsifal" on LP. I do have other versions of the "Planets" but I do rate his performances of the Mahler, Schubert and Wagner.

The comments from the LPO member who said "Solti just got in the way" and "his stick technique was appalling, we just ignored him" were hilarious and should have been followed through.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 13, 2012, 07:06:08 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 13, 2012, 06:41:52 AM
Just checked my cd catalogue to see what Solti I have on disc.......the Bartok Violin Concertos, Handel's "Messiah"( ???)...

Counterintuitive, perhaps, but that's actually a fine Messiah. Love Kiri's "I know that my redeemer liveth"

Quote from: Dundonnell on November 13, 2012, 06:41:52 AM
Tippett's 3rd

A typo in your catalogue, or here? You mean Tippett 4, the "Breather"  ;D

Quote from: Dundonnell on November 13, 2012, 06:41:52 AM
The comments from the LPO member who said "Solti just got in the way" and "his stick technique was appalling, we just ignored him" were hilarious and should have been followed through.

Well, maybe, but Solti and the LPO produced some fine recordings. I love especially the Elgar Violin Concerto they did with Kyung-Wha Chung. Perfect balance between the feminine and masculine elements in the score.

Quote from: John Whitmore on November 12, 2012, 10:53:10 PM
I agree about the Ring but the glory of the cycle is Decca's production values and engineering nouse. That's where it truly excels.

While acknowledging its classic status and legendary production, it's far from one of my favorites. I have fourteen Rings and it ranks maybe tenth or so. No need to go into why here (we have Ring threads for that).

On topic: My Brian Dutton CD arrived today. Just finished listening to the Violin Concerto. The fanfares at the end always put me in mind of Korngold's The Sea Hawk  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 13, 2012, 07:27:52 AM
I love that comparison with The Sea Hawk! Another reason to give it another spin....and another!
After some of these posts,I've got to see if I've got some more Solti! ::) ;D It's always a bit strange when a once praised 'performer' falls out of favour!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 13, 2012, 07:58:17 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on Today at 17:06:08 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg674859#msg674859)
On topic: My Brian Dutton CD arrived today. Just finished listening to the Violin Concerto. The fanfares at the end always put me in mind of Korngold's
The Sea Hawk  8)



Ergo: I'll be the last to receive it. Woe is me!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 13, 2012, 08:18:42 AM
Errol Flynn to the rescue! ;D

It is rather filmic,for Brian & of course,it was subtitled,'The Heroic'! While it doesn't sound like Korngold;there certainly is a swashbuckling,widescreen sweep to parts of it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 13, 2012, 08:28:53 AM
Of interest for British fans of HB who follow this thread...

"To commemorate the 40th anniversary of Havergal Brian's death, the public premiere of symphony no. 19 will take place at the University of Bristol's Victoria Rooms concert hall, Queens Road, Bristol BS8 1SA at 7.30pm on Saturday 1st December 2012; that's in just over two weeks' time. Symphony no. 19 will occupy the first half of the programme; the second half will comprise a performance of Sir William Walton's symphony no.1. As with the performance of In Memoriam that took place in February this year at the same venue, the University of Bristol Symphony Orchestra will be conducted by eminent composer, Bristol's Professor of Music and HBS Archivist, John Pickard." (e-mail from the HBS Webmaster, Martyn Becker)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 14, 2012, 01:45:17 AM
What joy. An old LSSO mate has mailed to me today a DVD of The Curse of the Gothic. So there.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 14, 2012, 01:49:21 AM
The copyright cops will know where to find you...  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 14, 2012, 03:22:33 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 14, 2012, 01:49:21 AM
The copyright cops will know where to find you...  ;)
I will tell them you did it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mountain Goat on November 14, 2012, 07:52:56 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 13, 2012, 08:28:53 AM
"To commemorate the 40th anniversary of Havergal Brian's death, the public premiere of symphony no. 19 will take place at the University of Bristol's Victoria Rooms concert hall, Queens Road, Bristol BS8 1SA at 7.30pm on Saturday 1st December 2012; that's in just over two weeks' time. Symphony no. 19 will occupy the first half of the programme; the second half will comprise a performance of Sir William Walton's symphony no.1. As with the performance of In Memoriam that took place in February this year at the same venue, the University of Bristol Symphony Orchestra will be conducted by eminent composer, Bristol's Professor of Music and HBS Archivist, John Pickard." (e-mail from the HBS Webmaster, Martyn Becker)

Got the same email yesterday! Bristol isn't too far from me so I hope to be able to make it to this concert. In the meantime I'm still waiting for that Dutton CD  :( so you're not the only one!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 14, 2012, 08:05:06 AM
Quote from: Mountain Goat on Today at 17:52:56 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg675062#msg675062)
Got the same email yesterday! Bristol isn't too far from me so I hope to be able to make it to this concert. In the meantime I'm still waiting for that Dutton CD  :( so you're not the only one!



It would be great if you could attend - at least one GMG earwitness would be present! As for the infamous CD - I live in hope. Perhaps tomorrow?...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on November 14, 2012, 12:08:50 PM
Two GMG earwitnesses...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 14, 2012, 12:30:25 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on November 14, 2012, 12:08:50 PM
Two GMG earwitnesses...


Excellent! I remember returning to England, a long time ago, in the back of a car, when I had been shown a few places in Wales, and seeing Bristol and its lights in the early evening, crossing the Severn Bridge. The driver was - the late and unforgotten Alan Marshall, Secretary of the HBS.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 15, 2012, 05:29:12 AM
From the resounding silence from Delft I take it that the snail has not yet managed to crawl its weary way as far as Delft ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 16, 2012, 01:21:40 AM
Let there be light!


I just read Malcolm MacDonald's excellent (as usual) liner notes, ergo: the Dutton CD has arrived!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 16, 2012, 01:22:30 AM
I'm trying to get a decent pressing of the Aries Symph 25 for refurbishing. Anyone out there????
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 16, 2012, 02:24:37 AM
Well, I've watched The Curse of the Gothic and it was pretty entertaining. The general thrust of the thing comes over as a group of eccentrics chasing a folly in a fairly haphazard sort of way but then triumphantly pulling it off. Despite a few false claims and the odd patch of nerdiness (is this a word?), from the Brits and not the Aussies I hasten to add, it's a good film. John Curro shines - he's a practical, no nonsense musician who just gets on with playing the thing. It was just a job to him like any other concert and it's a job that he did magnificently well, ditto the young lady who trained the chorus. What they achieved with such limited resources is breath taking. I recommend it. Will it take the cause forward? I fear not.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 16, 2012, 06:07:21 AM
Cilgwyn, have you moved to Oldham? In my quest for vinyl this morning a new batch had arrived including various Welsh LPs by Harry Secombe, male voice choirs, Shirley Bassey, Cory Brass Band, some Eisteddfod thingy and Aled Jones. I felt a stranger (so to speak) in my own country to be honest. Welsh lamb for tea tonight followed by a dose of Mathias/Grace Williams and that just about completes my day. Must go. Need to put some coal on the fire........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 17, 2012, 02:03:13 PM
Ok, I arrived back from North Queensland on Friday (been there to see the eclipse), to find the Dutton CD had arrived. Gave it several spins yesterday.

I think it's the Brian recording with the most beautiful sound so far, and all the pieces are excellently played. Brabbins is clearly the Brian conductor of the moment (and probably the next few years too).

The Tinkers Wedding has far more vim than the other available recording, the English Suite 4 is fascinating and enigmatic and thank heavens we have CD quality recording of it now. The violin concerto is the best recording so far I think, I never got on with the Bisengaliev recording, which didn't seem to hang together. The remastered Holmes recording was better, but this one is even better. I said about the Holmes recording that it made the concerto sound like other concertos, which for this Brian work is a good thing (if recordings of the symphonies sounded like other people's symphonies there'd be something wrong).

As for the Symphony No.13, the sound is beautiful (what MM calls the 'golden sound') and the playing good as well. I'm still thinking, along with MM that this work and No 14 are a bit of a slow patch for Brian, where he was feeling his way towards the sound and structures of the later symphonies. To me they hark back to some passages in the Symphony No.2 (and this is the Mackerras recording, not the other one, which we know is rather lacklustre), where the music doesn't seem to be getting anywhere. Obviously I would sooner listen to this symphonies than many another work by other composers, but they're not my favourite Brian symphonies.

All in all though this disk is a must have, 5 out of 5 recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 17, 2012, 02:09:02 PM
Thanks, calyptorhynchus! I have listened to the Dutton CD three times now, and will write down what I think of it tomorrow morning. Suffice it to say, our opinions aren't far apart. The CD is a real winner.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 17, 2012, 02:26:31 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 17, 2012, 02:09:02 PM
Thanks, calyptorhynchus! I have listened to the Dutton CD three times now, and will write down what I think of it tomorrow morning. Suffice it to say, our opinions aren't far apart. The CD is a real winner.

Humph!!

Andrew Clements can get his reviews faster to press than the music critic of the "Delft Discoverer" ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 17, 2012, 02:49:24 PM
This music critic has had other things to attend to, like a concert only tonight, where the Delft Symphony Orchestra (yes, I'm not joking) played the Symphonie Fantastique, among other works by Chabrier and Saint-Saëns...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 17, 2012, 02:56:49 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 17, 2012, 02:49:24 PM
This music critic has had other things to attend to, like a concert only tonight, where the Delft Symphony Orchestra (yes, I'm not joking) played the Symphonie Fantastique, among other works by Chabrier and Saint-Saëns...

I am emailed Mark Rutte ;D  That one can go first ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 17, 2012, 02:59:49 PM
My goodness :o

I just googled Rutte, who, as you know, is unmarried. You wouldn't credit....well you probably would.....the sort of "speculation" all over the net :o Have people nothing BETTER to do with their time :( :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 17, 2012, 03:13:45 PM
Well, I know Mark Rutte is married to power. The speculation can stop.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 18, 2012, 02:40:21 AM
My first thoughts about the Dutton CD...


I think the man (or woman?) responsible for putting it together, should receive an award, the four pieces work together tremendously well. The Tinker's Wedding and English Suite No. 4, which show Brian in a lighter vein, flank the far weightier Violin Concerto and Symphony No. 13. The two latter works may be very different, written as they are in different periods of Brian's career, but because you listen to them consecutively, one thing strikes you very strongly about the symphony - that it's so full of solos. Symphony No. 13 is a strange beast, as Malcolm MacDonald also notices in his excellent liner notes. It is a work full of stops and starts. It is riven in two, with a second half partly recovering from that 'catastrophe', and then gathering new strength, building to a triumphant conclusion.


I think Brabbins understands Brian's style almost completely by now. My slight reservation ('almost') has to do with the fact that he can be too brisk. It's perfectly fine for The Tinker's Wedding, which gets its best performance so far. In retrospect Mackerras is far too ponderous. The piece needs ebullience and speed, and we get those with Brabbins. But in Symphony No. 13 there are moments where I think the tempo is a bit rushed. Still - a very idiomatic performance, in great sound. On to the The Violin Concerto - this gets a wonderful performance, and - slower than both the Holmes and the Bisengaliev! I think Lorraine McAslan put the brakes on Brabbins. Her approach is very lyrical. I don't think Brian ever sounded so mellifluous and sweet. Perhaps the tempo of the final movement is a tad too deliberate, but that's just nit-picking. As for English Suite No. 4 - after having been used to the Heriot Orchestra, this almost came as a shock. It's a really fun and inventive piece. It makes for a raucous conclusion to one of the best CDs to appear during this Second Wave of the Brian Renaissance.


I intend to listen to the VC with a score, just to see whether the slower tempo is 'correct'...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 18, 2012, 03:34:17 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 18, 2012, 02:40:21 AM
My first thoughts about the Dutton CD...


I think the man (or woman?) responsible for putting it together, should receive an award, the four pieces work together tremendously well. The Tinker's Wedding and English Suite No. 4, which show Brian in a lighter vein, flank the far weightier Violin Concerto and Symphony No. 13. The two latter works may be very different, written as they are in different periods of Brian's career, but because you listen to them consecutively, one thing strikes you very strongly about the symphony - that it's so full of solos. Symphony No. 13 is a strange beast, as Malcolm MacDonald also notices in his excellent liner notes. It is a work full of stops and starts. It is riven in two, with a second half partly recovering from that 'catastrophe', and then gathering new strength, building to a triumphant conclusion.


I think Brabbins understands Brian's style almost completely by now. My slight reservation ('almost') has to do with the fact that he can be too brisk. It's perfectly fine for The Tinker's Wedding, which gets its best performance so far. In retrospect Mackerras is far too ponderous. The piece needs ebullience and speed, and we get those with Brabbins. But in Symphony No. 13 there are moments where I think the tempo is a bit rushed. Still - a very idiomatic performance, in great sound. On to the The Violin Concerto - this gets a wonderful performance, and - slower than both the Holmes and the Bisengaliev! I think Lorraine McAslan put the brakes on Brabbins. Her approach is very lyrical. I don't think Brian ever sounded so mellifluous and sweet. Perhaps the tempo of the final movement is a tad too deliberate, but that's just nit-picking. As for English Suite No. 4 - after having been used to the Heriot Orchestra, this almost came as a shock. It's a really fun and inventive piece. It makes for a raucous conclusion to one of the best CDs to appear during this Second Wave of the Brian Renaissance.


I intend to listen to the VC with a score, just to see whether the slower tempo is 'correct'...
Beware. The score is just the starting point. Not sure what you mean by correct. That's probably why you've put punctuation marks around the word. If everyone stuck to the exact tempi in the score (they aren't always marked anyway) there would only be one way of doing things and it would be pretty dull out there. Paray and Klemperer, for example, are from different planets in Beethoven 6 but both sound interesting. Klemperer didn't have a set tempo. His chosen tempo depended on the orchestra and the acoustic and how he felt on the day. That was crucial to his art. He was really only interested in clarity of articulation. A busy score such as Walton's Partita wouldn't work in, say, the Festival Hall or the Musikverein with the same tempi. You need to listen and adjust. Shostakovitch was legendary for not putting accurate metronome markings in his symphonies. When challenged as to which were the correct tempi when listening to recordings that were nowhere near each other he said something along the lines of "I like both". Great comment. The issue is - does the chosen tempo work, not whether or not it's in the score. You mention the soloist putting the brakes on. That's exactly how it should be. She's the soloist and it's her interpretation. Nigel Kennedy's Elgar is (in my opinion) still the best around - he pulls it all over the place but my goodness it works because he's committed and the music still has structure and beauty. In his two recordings both Handley and Rattle follow him superbly. I'm sure Brabbins does exactly that in this new recording of the Brian. l await the CD with interest. It cost me an outrageous 6 quid so it better be good. The other recordings I have in my collection by her are top quality. I hope you receive the parcel I sent you pdq.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 18, 2012, 03:57:58 AM
Can I go off topic for a minute? The new Berlioz Fantastic Symphony on Naxos (Slatkin/Lyon) is magnificent. The level of orchestral polish is staggering and Tim Handley's engineering is as natural and detailed as anyone could wish. Unless you have issues with tubular bells being used in the last movement (I couldn't care less) this is recording that goes straight in very close to the top of the list. It also includes the only version of The Corsaire I've ever heard that stays together in the opening bars ( a rare miscalculation by the composer?). Jaw dropping stuff.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 18, 2012, 03:58:57 AM
Yes, I put quotation marks around 'correct' for exactly that reason. The slower tempo works for the Violin Concerto. It's in Brian's very full, 'early mature' style, with a mass of detail, which is now brought out very clearly. In this respect, I really hope Brabbins is allowed to do Nos. 2 and 3 one day... Other symphonies he should do are 14 and 28. But let's enjoy the CD on offer here and now!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 18, 2012, 04:02:31 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 18, 2012, 03:58:57 AM
Yes, I put quotation marks around 'correct' for exactly that reason. The slower tempo works for the Violin Concerto. It's in very full, 'early mature' style, with a mass of detail, which is now brought out very clearly. In this respect, I really hope Brabbins is allowed to do Nos. 2 and 3 one day... Other symphonies he should do are 14 and 28. But let's enjoy the CD on offer here and now!
Is the violin  in the right proportion or recessed as was being suggested? The sample I heard sounded very good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 18, 2012, 04:09:28 AM
I think balance is excellent. No complaints from my quarter
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 18, 2012, 04:16:03 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 18, 2012, 04:09:28 AM
I think balance is excellent. No complaints from my quarter
And the other three quarters? :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 18, 2012, 04:41:19 AM
Just found the remaining three - they appear to be in agreement... ;-)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 18, 2012, 06:48:35 PM
Regarding tempi......may I remind you of the most extraordinary comparison I know-Malcolm Arnold's Symphony No.7.

Now Arnold's 7th is an angry, grim, despairing work, written during a dreadful period in his life. The first recording on disc on Confer by the RPO under Vernon Handley clocks in at 37.43 minutes. Rumon Gamba with the BBC Philharmonic for Chandos speeds the work up to 31.52 minutes. I am not sure how long Andrew Penney for Naxos takes for the work but his recording of Symphonies Nos. 7 and 8 combined take 63.55 minutes.

When Arnold himself conducted the work in concert in its first broadcast performance (which I taped), the works lasts a full 50 minutes because Arnold slows the middle movement so much. For a symphony in one performance to take almost 20 minutes longer than in another seems extraordinary to me. Did the composer know what he was doing? Did he really want it like that? Did he rethink the work? Or are these perfectly legitimate ways of looking at the same piece? I don't know. Can both work? That will depend on a listener's perspective.

We can consider the score to be the ultimate arbiter which must determine the speed to be taken-if, as John says, the composer has provided explicit instructions, which is not always the case. Or we can offer a different way of looking at the music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 18, 2012, 06:58:12 PM
I should add though, that having waited a full week for the Dutton disc to reach Johan in Delft, it is splendid to hear that he is so impressed by the disc and that he concurs with my initial assessment that Brabbins is now totally "inside" the Brian idiom.

I am also interested to read his response to the English Suite No.4. From being a work which was very much a "side-note" to one's appreciation of Brian this piece now seems to me a "little masterpiece" which grows and grows on me to the point where I find it perfectly fascinating.
Of course it is "easier" to listen to and assimilate than the thicker textures of the symphonies but that does allow the scoring to be more easily appreciated and how beautifully orchestrated it actually is.

The 13th Symphony has never sounded better and "The Tinker's Wedding" (which Mackerras probably threw in without giving it as much attention as the symphonies he was recording) is clearly given the reading it really requires.

A all-round triumph in my opinion and one which, if there is any justice, Dutton will now follow up by asking Brabbins to record the 14th, 19th and one, at least, of the later symphonies. (I fear that Nos. 2 and 3 might be a bit ambitious for Dutton.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 19, 2012, 04:58:52 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 18, 2012, 06:58:12 PM
I should add though, that having waited a full week for the Dutton disc to reach Johan in Delft, it is splendid to hear that he is so impressed by the disc and that he concurs with my initial assessment that Brabbins is now totally "inside" the Brian idiom.

I am also interested to read his response to the English Suite No.4. From being a work which was very much a "side-note" to one's appreciation of Brian this piece now seems to me a "little masterpiece" which grows and grows on me to the point where I find it perfectly fascinating.
Of course it is "easier" to listen to and assimilate than the thicker textures of the symphonies but that does allow the scoring to be more easily appreciated and how beautifully orchestrated it actually is.

The 13th Symphony has never sounded better and "The Tinker's Wedding" (which Mackerras probably through in without giving it as much attention as the symphonies he was recording) is clearly given the reading it really requires.

A all-round triumph in my opinion and one which, if there is any justice, Dutton will now follow up by asking Brabbins to record the 14th, 19th and one, at least, of the later symphonies. (I fear that Nos. 2 and 3 might be a bit ambitious for Dutton.)
Well that's the nail hit very firmly on the head. It's the thick texture of his symphonies that show his weakness, time and time again. He's a composer who manages to sound thick and undernourished at the same time, especially in the strings. In comparison, scores such as Don Quixote are teeming with ideas and counterpoint, the pages are packed with notes and yet everything comes through. I really do wish that Brian had been more savvy in the art of how to write for an orchestra. Maybe it's that he rarely had the chance to hear what his stuff sounded like. A few sessions with Strauss and Ben Britten wouldn't have gone amiss.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 19, 2012, 09:54:21 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 19, 2012, 04:58:52 AM
Well that's the nail hit very firmly on the head. It's the thick texture of his symphonies that show his weakness, time and time again.... A few sessions with Strauss and Ben Britten wouldn't have gone amiss.

And yet I never listen to Strauss, a composer whose compositions seem like the height of musical vulgarity to me, and rarely to Britten, who seems emotionally anorexic/frigid.

Ain't personal taste a funny thing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 19, 2012, 10:10:56 AM
Indeed....musical taste is a "funny thing" ;D

.....but, I feel compelled to add that there is no way on this planet that I could accept the description of Richard Strauss's Four Last Songs as being at "the height of musical vulgarity"(however one might describe any other of Strauss's compositions). The work moves me emotionally as few other works have ever done. And, although Benjamin Britten is far from my favourite composer and many of his works do leave me relatively cold, the outpouring of emotion in the Sinfonia da Requiem, written both in response to the death of his parents and to the outbreak of the Second World War, cannot, surely, be described as "emotionally frigid"; the work boils over with anguish, despair and anger.

However...these are personal responses. Others, no doubt, will see things differently.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 19, 2012, 12:25:09 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 19, 2012, 09:54:21 AM
And yet I never listen to Strauss, a composer whose compositions seem like the height of musical vulgarity to me, and rarely to Britten, who seems emotionally anorexic/frigid.

Ain't personal taste a funny thing.
I don't care much for Britten and don't admire everything by Strauss BUT as masters of the orchestra they were on a different planet to our mate HB. That's the point I was trying to make. Strauss Horn Concertos vulgar? Don't think so.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 19, 2012, 02:06:18 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 19, 2012, 12:25:09 PM
I don't care much for Britten and don't admire everything by Strauss BUT as masters of the orchestra they were on a different planet to our mate HB. That's the point I was trying to make. Strauss Horn Concertos vulgar? Don't think so.

My point was I'm not going to listen music simply because it's well-orchestrated. It has to be good music too. If it's both, all well and good, if not well-orchestrated, it's still better than bad music well-orchestrated.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 19, 2012, 02:26:24 PM
Britten and Strauss are excellent composers (and experts of the orchestra), and I do like several works by both of them (Britten: Sinfonia da Requiem, the Piano Concerto, the Violin Concerto, Young Apollo; Strauss: Salome, Elektra, Frau ohne Schatten, Ariadne auf Naxos, many of the symphonic poems, Vier letzte Lieder, Metamorphosen). Still, I return to Brian more often. Britten can be too frugal and Strauss too voluptuous and sweet. Brian is powerful, mercurial, dramatic and I love the sound of his orchestra, warts and all.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on November 19, 2012, 04:46:23 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 18, 2012, 06:48:35 PM
Regarding tempi......may I remind you of the most extraordinary comparison I know-Malcolm Arnold's Symphony No.7.

Now Arnold's 7th is an angry, grim, despairing work, written during a dreadful period in his life. The first recording on disc on Confer by the RPO under Vernon Handley clocks in at 37.43 minutes. Rumon Gamba with the BBC Philharmonic for Chandos speeds the work up to 31.52 minutes. I am not sure how long Andrew Penney for Naxos takes for the work but his recording of Symphonies Nos. 7 and 8 combined take 63.55 minutes.

When Arnold himself conducted the work in concert in its first broadcast performance (which I taped), the works lasts a full 50 minutes because Arnold slows the middle movement so much. For a symphony in one performance to take almost 20 minutes longer than in another seems extraordinary to me. Did the composer know what he was doing? Did he really want it like that? Did he rethink the work? Or are these perfectly legitimate ways of looking at the same piece? I don't know. Can both work? That will depend on a listener's perspective.

We can consider the score to be the ultimate arbiter which must determine the speed to be taken-if, as John says, the composer has provided explicit instructions, which is not always the case. Or we can offer a different way of looking at the music.

Sounds like I need to revisit Arnold's 7th! :) My kind of work! Colin, you always inspire me to listen to works I haven't heard in so long. I think I'll listen to the Handley performance. I have two to choose from: Handley and Penny.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 19, 2012, 07:54:18 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 19, 2012, 02:26:24 PM
Britten and Strauss are excellent composers (and experts of the orchestra), and I do like several works by both of them (Britten: Sinfonia da Requiem, the Piano Concerto, the Violin Concerto, Young Apollo; Strauss: Salome, Elektra, Frau ohne Schatten, Ariadne auf Naxos, many of the symphonic poems, Vier letzte Lieder, Metamorphosen). Still, I return to Brian more often. Britten can be too frugal and Strauss too voluptuous and sweet. Brian is powerful, mercurial, dramatic and I love the sound of his orchestra, warts and all.

Interesting :)

Britten can be too "frugal" ??? Would you care to elaborate ??? As I said above, Britten is far from my favourite composer(I spent my teenage years defending Walton against Britten's domination of British musical taste ;D) but I would say that in the Sinfonia da Requiem, the closing pages in particular of the Violin Concerto and in the superbly scored Sea Interludes from "Peter Grimes" (all written when he was still a very young man) he touches real greatness and that the passion which emanates from all three of these works is neither "frigid" nor "frugal".

I also note that you do instance the Four Last Songs amongst your favourite Strauss compositions. There are two pieces of music which invariably- and I say this without shame or embarrassment move me to tears: the Four Last Songs and the last movement of Mahler's 2nd (and remember I am not a Mahlerian, infinitely preferring Bruckner....sorry, John).

I am not going to defend my emotional reaction to or enormous esteem for these two works but I do not believe I need to. No counter-argument that anyone could put forward would sway a personal response which, ultimately, comes from the soul.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 20, 2012, 12:23:27 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 19, 2012, 02:06:18 PM
My point was I'm not going to listen music simply because it's well-orchestrated. It has to be good music too. If it's both, all well and good, if not well-orchestrated, it's still better than bad music well-orchestrated.
I can't disagree with a single word.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 20, 2012, 07:32:36 PM
Just working backwards through the symphonies making CD-rs. 11-14 fit on one disk (just), so that means the next one can have 8-10 on it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 21, 2012, 02:50:46 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 20, 2012, 07:32:36 PM
Just working backwards through the symphonies making CD-rs. 11-14 fit on one disk (just), so that means the next one can have 8-10 on it.
I hope you have the common decency to use the Loughran 10 rather than the professional effort ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 21, 2012, 05:18:15 AM
That's the one to go for! :) Maybe,I'll graft the LSSO performance & the rest of the Dutton cd onto a cdr? The Brabbins is pretty good....we're not talking Naxos 2 here.........anyway,it's all been said in previous posts! ;D

I finally found the Hull Youth SO set. As soon as you stop looking!!! :( ;D I was actually looking for the Decca Solti Der Rosenkavalier,which has currently gone AWOL! All this talk about Solti on the Brian thread....and there was the HYSO set,under a pile of cds!!! Right at the bottom!!!! I think it's taken about two b***** weeks! :(

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 21, 2012, 05:21:00 AM
Actually,the LSSO 10 is so good,maybe it should be re-classified as a 'professional' effort?! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 21, 2012, 05:27:13 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on Today at 15:18:15 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg676335#msg676335)
I think it's taken about two b***** weeks!



Finally! Well done.
>
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 21, 2012, 05:21:00 AM
Actually,the LSSO 10 is so good,maybe it should be re-classified as a 'professional' effort?! ;D



I think we need a fourth performance, combining the best aspects of the three we now have. I still prefer the LSSO.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 21, 2012, 06:43:44 AM
The Brabbins (it does sound like The Hobbit! ;D) is a bit of a disappointment! It's certainly not as bad as Naxos 2,or as big a disappointment for Brianites,as the HB Song Book :o :( or the Bisengaliev VC. In fact,it's probably quite good,really!
But I still prefer the LSSO or even the 1958 Stanley Pope!

It must be tricky to get 'right' though (whatever that means?! ;D).

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 21, 2012, 07:05:39 AM
The Pope is very slow - this doesn't work well for the pre-storm half, but it pays dividends for what comes after. Brabbins is the most exciting in the violent music between the lyrical episode and the coda. And the LSSO is the best overall, also tempo-wise.


IMO, of course!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 21, 2012, 07:15:29 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 21, 2012, 07:05:39 AM
The Pope is very slow - this doesn't work well for the pre-storm half, but it pays dividends for what comes after. Brabbins is the most exciting in the violent music between the lyrical episode and the coda. And the LSSO is the best overall, also tempo-wise.


IMO, of course!
He's an elderly German so show a bit more respect please ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 21, 2012, 07:54:46 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 21, 2012, 09:25:27 AM
It's a cracker! ;D

Just found the Solti Der Rosenkavalier. In one of the bags destined for the charity shop. The Decca originals release! (A bit too pricey to take there,I'm afraid!) Fortunately,there never was a Strauss curse! ;D
Or a Bruckner curse,for that matter! :o

Now I'm listening to it! Strauss is a bit too full off himself for my liking,unlike Brian;but this is quite nice! :)

Brian curses?!! ;D Dear oh dear!!! :o ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 21, 2012, 11:53:33 AM
I probably won't do 8-10 for some time, my car CD stacker only takes 6 disks and I want to go through 11-32 on six disks several more times. However, the LSSO 10 is my favourite 10!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 21, 2012, 02:44:38 PM
I just read a post on the UC Forum,that a Cpo cd of Joseph Holbrooke will be recorded in January;but will NOT include his third symphony (ships) because,in the opinion of the conductor Howard Griffiths,it sounds TOO much like a certain Havergal Brian,a composer the conductor,apparently,isn't too fond of!!! Now,I confess I actually quite like some Holbrooke;and I know they were aquainted,but that's the first time I've heard that! Maybe they should record it!! ;D
Hm?! So Howard Griffiths won't be recording any Brian,any time soon! I wonder what he has heard. I hope he's not just judging Brian purely on the Gothic! There's so much else!
Still,each to his own! I wish Cpo would get interested,though!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 21, 2012, 02:55:26 PM
Someone being disqualified for sounding like Brian, that's a first! I think Howard Shore's music for The Lord of the Rings is sometimes reminiscent of Brian in its scoring for the lower instruments of the orchestra, but apparently Shore doesn't know Brian's music (I asked Doug Adams, writer of the definitive study of Shore's LOTR music, who's on Twitter).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 21, 2012, 04:43:51 PM
Well,Gareth Vaughan is,apparently,the leading 'authority' on Holbrooke goings on,these days,so it must be true! Holbrooke does have a fondness for the lower instruments of the orchestra,as you put it. Sonorous,deep sounding brass instruments,et al! So there is a similarity there,I suppose. Also,Brian's muse can be a bit gothic (atmosphere wise) at times (Parts of The Tigers) & so can Holbrooke,allot of the time! (His obsession with Edgar Allan Poe!) Other than that,while there is evidence that Holbrooke's style became more astringent towards the end of his career (& I suppose he does have his own sound world,if you listen enough) Holbrooke started of as a late romantic & essentially adhered to that tradition throughout his life, ie Brian seems to have forged an increasingly individualistic path almost from the beginning,while Holbrooke muse remained,solidly, entrenched in the past. In other words,even if you like Holbrooke,you have to admit that while Brians music was constantly evolving,Holbrooke was,in many ways, an old stick in the mud!! Not that it matters of course,I suppose! ;D
Quite frankly,a comparison of that kind really does make me wonder just how much Havergal Brian Howard Griffiths has listened to!!

I wonder what other compositions Howard Griffiths will rule out because they sound too much like Havergal Brian?!! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 21, 2012, 05:04:22 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 21, 2012, 02:44:38 PM
I just read a post on the UC Forum,that a Cpo cd of Joseph Holbrooke will be recorded in January;but will NOT include his third symphony (ships) because,in the opinion of the conductor Howard Griffiths,it sounds TOO much like a certain Havergal Brian,a composer the conductor,apparently,isn't too fond of!!! Now,I confess I actually quite like some Holbrooke;and I know they were aquainted,but that's the first time I've heard that! Maybe they should record it!! ;D
Hm?! So Howard Griffiths won't be recording any Brian,any time soon! I wonder what he has heard. I hope he's not just judging Brian purely on the Gothic! There's so much else!
Still,each to his own! I wish Cpo would get interested,though!

Oh!!......you read a post on the UC Forum did you ??? ::) Aren't you the lucky man ;D ::)

Why are you still frequenting that "place" when there are such nicer places to visit ;D

Since cpo has recorded most of the tone poems without choral accompaniment and if Griffiths thinks that the 3rd Symphony sounds too much like HB then goodness alone knows what he DOES intend to record. One of the later concertos(the Double or the Quadruple ???) or does he intend to duplicate works already recorded by Dutton or Cameo or Marco Polo-which would be daft!(well, certainly, duplicating Dutton recordings would be daft).

Simple solution for CPO. Fire Griffiths and get someone else. He is not that good a conductor anyway ::)

Do I sound bitter/angry ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 21, 2012, 11:04:00 PM
Brian, short of money, was payed by Holbrooke as a copyist of his, Holbrooke's, music. I have had the idea for some time that Brian did more than merely copy and that he actually did some orchestration as well????

From reading Eastaugh.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on November 21, 2012, 11:47:48 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 21, 2012, 05:04:22 PMSince cpo has recorded most of the tone poems without choral accompaniment and if Griffiths thinks that the 3rd Symphony sounds too much like HB then goodness alone knows what he DOES intend to record. One of the later concertos(the Double or the Quadruple ???) or does he intend to duplicate works already recorded by Dutton or Cameo or Marco Polo-which would be daft!(well, certainly, duplicating Dutton recordings would be daft).

The works to be recorded in January will be the Grasshopper Violin Concerto, The Raven and the Auld Lang Syne Variations. I'm also disappointed that Symphony No.3 (Ships) has been dropped from the schedule and, having looked at the score, I can't begin to fathom the justification given ...

???

... but anyway the proposed programme is excellent - The Raven certainly deserves a better performance than was meted out to it by Adrian Leaper's orchestra on Marco Polo. Gareth also mentioned that recordings (with a Berlin choir) of The Bells and Queen Mab are still being discussed for a subsequent CPO release (now that would really be something to look forward to).

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 22, 2012, 04:45:08 AM
The Violin Concerto and the Variations on Auld Lang Syne would be new.....and both would indeed be welcome :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 22, 2012, 07:51:22 AM
The final minutes of Holbrookes third symphony were recorded on 78s,actually. I have them as part of a Symposium cd of recordings conducted under the supervision of the composer. I'm going to have to listen to this now,but I don't think that brief extract will be much help! Anyway,I seem to remember it's a sea shanty or something?!! ::) Either way,if it sounds like Havergal Brian,even if it IS by Holbrooke,that surely is one good reason FOR b***** well recording it!!! ;D As to Howard Griffiths capability as a conductor? I really don't know enough about him,but he does like Joseph Holbrooke (as long as he doesn't sound like Havergal Brian?! ??? ::) ;D) so I'd rather Cpo didn't give him the sack,just yet!! ;D
  Meanwhile,I shall have to lobby Naxos to include the Holbrooke third in their resuscitated Havergal Brian symphony cycle!!! ;D
Dear oh dear,I really have heard it all,now!! :o ;D
It reminds me of Herbert von Karajan who didn't want to conduct Elgar,whom he regarded as second rate Brahms! (Dundonnell probably has the exact quote! ;D) Incidentally,I tried to find this quote just now & I just happened on Dr David CF Wrights article 'Elgar: Elgar Unmasked',which is available as a pdf,if you google it! This seems to be about how allot of rather famous people hated Elgar & why? I must admit I was previously unaware that Elgar had a creepy preoccupation with blue womens knickers?!! :o Hopefully,the article is a spoof?!! I do recall that David Wright has made some crude observations about Holbrooke's Apollo & the Sea-man (there is an innuendo there,if you think about it! :o).

NB: Good news about Queen Mab & The Bells,Albion! Time for me to revive the dormant Holbrooke thread,perhaps?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on November 22, 2012, 09:21:02 AM
Holbrooke's Ships (Symphony No.3) is nothing like Havergal Brian - http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.3_(%27Ships%27),_Op.90_(Holbrooke,_Joseph) (http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.3_(%27Ships%27),_Op.90_(Holbrooke,_Joseph))

David C.F. Wright's views on a surprisingly considerable number of composers are coloured by what appears to be a warped and unstable world-view, fixated primarily on sex with a fundamentalist Christian homophobia thrown in for good measure. Some of his earlier work on composers such as Ruth Gipps and Fricker is useful but much of the rest is, unfortunately, highly-personalised and unsubstantiated bilge ...

::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 22, 2012, 09:29:38 AM
Quote from: Albion on November 22, 2012, 09:21:02 AM
Holbrooke's Ships (Symphony No.3) is nothing like Havergal Brian - http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.3_(%27Ships%27),_Op.90_(Holbrooke,_Joseph) (http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.3_(%27Ships%27),_Op.90_(Holbrooke,_Joseph))

David C.F. Wright's views on a surprisingly considerable number of composers are coloured by what appears to be a warped and unstable world-view, fixated primarily on sex with a fundamentalist Christian homophobia thrown in for good measure. Some of his earlier work on composers such as Ruth Gipps and Fricker is useful but much of the rest is, unfortunately, highly-personalised and unsubstantiated bilge ...

::)
.....which brings us nicely back to Havergal Brian..... :) I'll get my coat..........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 22, 2012, 09:56:27 AM
Thank you for clarifying this,John!! Some of his articles on composers like Ruth Gipps & David Wynne are very interesting & even useful. But trying to turn Elgar into an Edwardian Jimmy Saville?!! :o David Hurwitz is pretty level headed by comparison! ;D
And thanks for the link!

Yes,back to Brian! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 22, 2012, 10:10:59 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 22, 2012, 09:56:27 AM
Thank you for clarifying this,John!! (Update! I mean,Albion! ;D) Some of his articles on composers like Ruth Gipps & David Wynne are very interesting & even useful. But trying to turn Elgar into an Edwardian Jimmy Saville?!! :o (Albeit,without the blonde hair & medallions!) David Hurwitz is pretty level headed by comparison! ;D
And thanks for the link!

Yes,back to Brian! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 25, 2012, 03:58:38 AM
Johan (John?) alert!! ;D Tantalising posts,in the last couple of minutes, on the AMF Forum relating to a possible mid 2013 cd release for the BBC studio recording of Brian's opera 'The Tigers'!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 25, 2012, 04:06:59 AM
I knew this. It is in the latest Newsletter (I forgot to make mention of it here...).


"We are delighted to announce that the 1983 BBC recording is to be released commercially on CD in mid-2013. It will be the first of Brian's operas to be available complete.  We have been talking to Testament Records about a follow-up project to their issue of the 1966 Boult Gothic ever since its issue, and the obvious candidate has always been the BBC studio recording of the Gothic's operatic counterpart, The Tigers. After establishing the support of Lionel Friend, our Vice-President and conductor of the recording, your Chairman spent no little time in 2010 and 2011 tracking down the singers involved and seeking their various permissions for the reissue. Following this process, Testament signed them up to the project and negotiated the BBC orchestral and choral rights and other permissions for access  to the original BBC recording. Various delays in this process have meant that we are only now able to move forward with this, but issue is at last planned for mid-2013. Preferring to rely on members' unprompted generosity, the HBS does not often ask for extra support, but there are currently so many projects happening for the Society that we are fast running out of funds. The two CDs of the complete songs (Volume 2 will be released in February 2013) and the various  recent Dutton and Toccata Classics orchestral discs have taken their toll on our finances but we really do want to keep up the momentum and to do as much as possible to bring Brian's music before the public. Our great successes of late makes us keen to maintain the current flow of recordings for as long as we are able."


Et cetera...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 25, 2012, 04:18:01 AM
 ;D I thought you did! I seem to recall a 'tip off' from a source ::) a while ago! I just thought you might be interested in the posts there!

This should re-ignite some debate here!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 25, 2012, 04:28:12 AM
I'll hop over to the AMF site later today...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 26, 2012, 03:09:15 PM
Good news about the Tigers, I was amazed at the quality of the recording when I heard the version we have. Perhaps some other BBC recordings could also be dusted off  ;D

A couple of pages ago Dundonnell was mentioning a significant difference in duration of two versions of Malcolm Arnold Symphony. I've been having a HB Minor Works day today and I noticed that the Brabbins version of the English Suite No.5 has the slow movement "Reverie" at 7.09, whereas the LSSO takes 9.45 to play it. Also a significant difference. I much prefer the LSSO version because that was the work, and the version,  that first got me hooked on Brian. I recorded it off BBC Radio 3 in the early 80s (didn't know anything about the LSSO in those days, it was just a taped performance) and loved it, always wanted to listen to more Brian.* Anyway I much prefer the LSSO ES 5, it has far more depth. I also prefer their Symphony No.10 to Brabbins'. Brabbins is our hero at the moment, anyone who can conduct the Gothic at the Proms has to be some sort of superman,  but sometimes he doesn't seen to get a Brian work.

Also listened to the Hull Youth Symphony Orchestra recording of the ES 1 again. It's a terrible recording if you listen to it as a CD on speakers, the sound is too congested, but doesn't sound too bad as an MP3 on headphones. It will be interesting to listen to the Naxos recording when it comes out.

* If anyone is interested, my Brian enthusiasm started like this:

c. 1981 taped ES5 off the radio, loved it, wanted to hear more Brian
c. 1982 discovered a copy of Kenneth Easthaugh's  Havergal Brian: The making of a composer in a local library, so got the story of his life and wanted to hear more.
c. 1990 got the Friend recording of the 3rd on Hyperion
c.1992 got the Lenard recording of the Gothic

What completely sold me, however, was firstly discovering the Marco Polo recording of the 17th and 32nd symphonies (plus In Memoriam, another great work) in the mid 1990s and then around 2000 getting hold of MM's books second hand (one volume at a time from different sellers who were advertising odd copies, a lot cheaper that way). With MM I felt if someone had musical analysis of this quality written about them, their music had to be good. As Brian's is.

After this is was a matter of getting the recordings as they were issued. The most recent chapter is discovering this forum in January this year, and hence getting access to recordings of all the remaining symphonies.

:D

Thanks everyone.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 26, 2012, 03:18:46 PM
Just mixing my recordings up, the new ES5 is on the Walker disk, whoops. Still isn't as good as the LSSO's, and Brabbins No.10 isn't as good as the LSSO's either...

IMHO.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 26, 2012, 03:28:50 PM
I share your opinion. I reiterate - slowness is an essential Brianic quality, which Brabbins doesn't always get right.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 27, 2012, 01:32:37 AM
I don't want to knock my old orchestra but I assume that their recordings of Symph 10 and Suite 5 are preferred by some is due to the overall structure/interpretation/shaping of the performances? In terms of actual orchestral playing they are top of the tree for a youth orchestra but not comparable to the professional versions now on CD. Chalk and Cheese and all that. I must add that I prefer the LSSO 10th because of the sense of danger, discovery and excitement despite the odd lapse here and there. It just has something about it. The LSSO reverie is very slow but putting this into contest Eric Pinkett did choose slow tempi - his Enigma and Bliss Intro and Allegro were also slow but also quite effective. He liked to take his time or maybe he was just being kind to his children!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on November 27, 2012, 03:13:31 AM
Quote from: Albion on November 22, 2012, 09:21:02 AM
Holbrooke's Ships (Symphony No.3) is nothing like Havergal Brian - http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.3_(%27Ships%27),_Op.90_(Holbrooke,_Joseph) (http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.3_(%27Ships%27),_Op.90_(Holbrooke,_Joseph))


Interesting viewing, that is. No time really to look properly (this is my first post on GMG for a couple of weeks, for that matter, due to lack of time) but there is a section beginning on page 7 of the Holbrooke score, poco tranquillo, which is (in no particular order)

a) mostly in 5/4
b) often bass-dominated
c) contrapuntally complex
d) characterised by angular and possibly shrill writing for the higher instruments
e) contains internal fanfare-like rhythms of a specific sort (three note dotted rhythm with last note tied on and prolonged)
f) features prominent melodic rhythms such as quaver-crotchet-quaver, sometimes rising a third and then falling a second
g) harmoncally fairly simple, and yet chromatically rich, with the tonality obscured by the splintered nature of the lines

I could go on....the point being that this section in these details and others reminds me very much, at least visually, of the slow second movement of the Gothic (of course I haven't heard it, and it may sound very different, but even then I also suppose that the visual aspect of a piece of music can potentially be as influential on another composer as its actual sound).

I have no axe to grind here, I just note the similarity. I do have an axe to grind with anyone who dislikes music that is in the style of the Brian of that marvellous 5/4 Gothic is someone I can't see eye to eye with!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 27, 2012, 03:20:28 AM
I'll have a look at the score, too (later!) Valuable contribution, Luke.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 27, 2012, 03:51:11 AM
The violin concerto CD has just arrived so I will take a long overdue listen.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 27, 2012, 04:17:23 AM
Well I hate to say this but I've just listened to the first 10 mins of the first movement of the concerto and I am tremendously disappointed, not artistically but technically.There is no glow to the acoustic whatsoever and the strings sound very undernourished. It's dessicated and the dynamic range is limited. The image is two dimensional with brass generally well caught but there is no front to back depth. Woodwind details are masked by the solo violin and where is the middle and bottom register in the strings? The violas aren't audible. Last week I reviewed a CD of the Fantastic Symphony on Naxos (Slatkin) where there is a tangible feeling that you are in a concert hall - glowing strings, winds clearly placed in a row across the back, glistening harps, fat rounded brass and horns placed left and right, deep resonant cellos and magnificent inner parts. If only............the acoustic on the Brian is cramped and dull. Sounds more like a multi mic'd studio effort. I'll try again later but this could end up on Ebay. I don't find it very pleasant. Could be my equipment of course.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 27, 2012, 07:14:36 AM
Those were my feelings in the first instance; you express them much better though. I put up the sample and was told I was wrong. The sound was better through good headphones. What's going on?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 27, 2012, 07:57:06 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on November 27, 2012, 07:14:36 AM
Those were my feelings in the first instance; you express them much better though. I put up the sample and was told I was wrong. The sound was better through good headphones. What's going on?
Steve. You weren't told that you were wrong. I listened to the MP3 sample that you shared purely for the fiddle balance (which you weren't happy with) on my PC speakers and it sounded fine. That is still the case. However, the CD played through my Linns even at high volume sounds very studio bound and lacking in bloom. Some of my late 50s and early 60s Decca/Everest productions sound much more satisfying. More like an orchestra set out in front of you. Maybe the choice of venue is the issue here. It's not very attractive.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 27, 2012, 11:14:07 PM
Thanks John.
Been having another listen through my good headphones and, indeed, it is the egg of a curate. You're right that the venue doesn't help, sounds like an anechoic chamber but the notes do come out clearly and sharply which is all that I ask.

I can hear the similarities in the orchestras of Brian and Holbrooke.

Holbrooke has an immediate appeal which then disappears into emptiness on repeated listening. Brian is (sometimes very) difficult on first hearing but more and more is revealed each time you hear a work, all my favourite composers manage that.
I hate to say this but Holbrooke may be the composer with the least to say musically that I know, he's not rubbish though; certainly a brilliant orchestrator at times.

Thus is my pronouncement :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2012, 01:15:52 AM
This is the 40th anniversary of Brian's death. Long may his posthumous life last! And many happy returns to a great Brianite (and composer!) - Luke!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 28, 2012, 02:21:33 AM
Long car trip today so I managed to listen to the HB symphonies 19-25 + concerto for orchestra, one after the other (C for O after No.20).

One thing that struck me that I have remarked on before is how Brian can just produce two or three bars of absolute nobility out of nowhere. One particular theme from the second movement of the 23rd is sticking in my head as I am writing this. These little flashes of nobility are all the more poignant and stirring because they are so brief, and seem to emerge miraculously from the turbulence around them.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 28, 2012, 03:35:47 AM
I must say,the new Dutton cd sounds okay to me! I'm very pleased with Lorraine McAslan's playing & everything else on the cd for that matter! Having said that,I tend to listen on cordless headphones,while listening,and my cd player isn't exactly state of the art. Also,John's a sound engineer so what do I know?! ::) :( ;D The Violin playing is good,anyway! :) But yes,John is right about the quality of those old Everest recordings & other labels from that era. Allot of new recordings seem boomy & opaque. Over reverberant recordings that seem focused on thrilling the listener as opposed to clarity & detail.

As to Holbrooke. I can't wait for the forthcoming cd from cpo (of his Violin Concerto,The Raven,etc) ,to be recorded in January 2013,so I feel compelled to stick up for the poor fellow! (Well,he hasn't got a Joseph Holbrooke Society to defend him! ;D) I personally,love his music & actually think he has quite allot to say! The more Holbrooke cds the better,I say! There,I've said it! ;D
Having said that,Brian's sound world is obviously more original. As a composer he was constantly evolving & while there is,certainly,an astringency & terseness to Holbrooke's later music,his muse appears to have remained,steadfastly entrenched in a yearning for a late romantic past.  Not that I mind,though! I love late romantic music! :) 
To make a really balanced assessment of his ultimate achievement we do (or I do,anyway! ;D) need to hear major scores like 'Queen Mab' &'Apollo & the Seaman'. To date,the majority of Holbrooke's major works remain,woefully (as far as I'm concerned! ;D) unrecorded!

Thus is my pronouncement!!! :P ;D

Anyway,as they might say at a certain other forum,"enough of Holbrooke,let's try & keep to the subject of this thread........" ;D ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 28, 2012, 04:27:42 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 28, 2012, 03:35:47 AM
I must say,the new Dutton cd sounds okay to me! I'm very pleased with Lorraine McAslan's playing & everything else on the cd for that matter! Having said that,I tend to listen on cordless headphones,while listening,and my cd player isn't exactly state of the art. Also,John's a sound engineer so what do I know?! ::) :( ;D The Violin playing is good,anyway! :) But yes,John is right about the quality of those old Everest recordings & other labels from that era. Allot of new recordings seem boomy & opaque. Over reverberant recordings that seem focused on thrilling the listener as opposed to clarity & detail.

As to Holbrooke. I can't wait for the forthcoming cd from cpo (of his Violin Concerto,The Raven,etc),so I feel compelled to stick up for the poor fellow! (Well,he hasn't got a Joseph Holbrooke Society to defend him! ;D) I personally,love his music & actually think he has quite allot to say! The more Holbrooke cds the better,I say! There,I've said it! ;D
Having said that,Brian's sound world is obviously more original. As a composer he was constantly evolving! While there is,certainly,an astringency & terseness to Holbrooke's later music,his muse appears to have remained,steadfastly entrenched in a yearning for a late romantic past.  Not that I mind,though! I love late romantic music! :)  To make a really balanced assessment of his ultimate achievement we do (or I do,anyway! ;D) need to hear major scores like 'Queen Mab' &'Apollo & the Seaman'. To date,the majority of Holbrooke's major works remain,woefully (as far as I'm concerned! ;D) unrecorded!

Anyway,as they might say at a certain other forum,"enough of Holbrooke,let's try & keep to the subject of this thread........" ;D ;)
I'm not. I'm a keen amateur, that's all. Sound recording/reproduction is just something that has interested me for the best part of 50 years, starting in my early teens as a record collector but mainly because I was lucky enough to have been involved in a few LSSO recordings, all of them using different techniques and mic set ups. When listening, I trust my ears and have my subjective views on what I like and what I don't. The new Brian sounds ugly, undernourished and ill balanced, that's all. I don't care for it. Others will be perfectly happy! I need to go back to listen to the artistry - first impressions were very positive.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 28, 2012, 05:19:19 AM
I have never understood the concept of "sound quality" :-[ :o ;D

Of course I can recognise a sound that is muffled or dim but then, as some of you will know, I spent much of the 1970s and early 80s recording British music from the radio in sound quality which has been MUCH criticised on this forum ;D

Honestly and frankly, I really don't much care as long as the music is FINALLY available in an, at least, acceptable recording. From then on all I care about is the music itself. The only previously available recording of the Brian Symphony No.13 was the off-air recording of the Downes performance and the Brabbins is immeasurably superior to that.....so that's fine by me. The Violin Concerto is not among my favourite Brian works anyway but McAslan will certainly suffice too.

As for Holbrooke :)....I must just say this ;) I get depressed sometimes by the "bandwagon trend" in music and I am beginning to wonder whether there is now a growing Holbrooke lobby ???  Nothing wrong with that per se...IF Holbrooke is really worth all the effort. On the evidence to date, I believe the jury to be still most definitely out on that one.
Now, it is of course, perfectly fair to retort, that unless we get to hear more of the music then a final judgment cannot be reached. But this vogue for "rediscovering" early 20th century British composers is all very well and good but it continues to virtually obliterate the chances of slightly later composers who DO have a considerable body of really good music to their name but are not getting it recorded.

And why? I have to say this! There is a strange sort of attraction, it seems to me, for some people in these "mysterious", "eccentric", lost early 20th century Brits-the York Bowens, Joseph Holbrookes, Percy Sherwoods, Walter Gaze Coopers, Roger Sachaverell Cokes.....and, yes, Havergal Brian ;D Some of these composers were totally ignored in life, some enjoyed brief periods of fame/exposure and then faded completely from the scene....but all this adds to the aura of Mystery.

So far...the only one of these figures who can fairly be claimed as a "great composer" is, indeed, Havergal Brian.

I just get increasingly frustrated by the apparent obsession(far too strong a word, I know :)) with the early 20th century and the absolute neglect of those composers around whom there is no such aura, no mystique.....and you know PERFECTLY well to whom I am referring :)

An intemperate rant, no doubt.....but I don't really care any more ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 28, 2012, 05:47:24 AM
Although,I confess to liking some Holbrooke,maybe that 'aura' you refer to is part & parcel of the allure;if that's the right word for it?! Also,there is his eccentricity personality,millionaire patron,colourful acquaintances,obsession with Edgar Allan Poe,all that Celtic twilight stuff & the fact that he composed a colossal operatic trilogy loosely based on the Mabinogion! What a package,eh?!! ;D But there is something that appeals to me,personally,I'm afraid! ;D
Having said that,I DO agree with your observation about 'band wagons! York Bowen being a case in point! ??? :o
And then there are figures like Daniel Jones. I assume he is the composer you are referring to!! Where are the recordings? Wasn't his life colourful enough?
For goodness sake,don't the cd labels know he was a childhood friend of,Dylan Thomas?!!! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 28, 2012, 06:03:01 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 28, 2012, 05:19:19 AM
I have never understood the concept of "sound quality" :-[ :o ;D

Of course I can recognise a sound that is muffled or dim but then, as some of you will know, I spent much of the 1970s and early 80s recording British music from the radio in sound quality which has been MUCH criticised on this forum ;D

Honestly and frankly, I really don't much care as long as the music is FINALLY available in an, at least, acceptable recording. From then on all I care about is the music itself. The only previously available recording of the Brian Symphony No.13 was the off-air recording of the Downes performance and the Brabbins is immeasurably superior to that.....so that's fine by me. The Violin Concerto is not among my favourite Brian works anyway but McAslan will certainly suffice too.

As for Holbrooke :)....I must just say this ;) I get depressed sometimes by the "bandwagon trend" in music and I beginning to wonder whether there is now a growing Holbrooke lobby ???  Nothing wrong with that per se...IF Holbrooke is really worth all the effort. On the evidence to date, I believe the jury to be still most definitely out on that one.
Now, it is of course, perfectly fair to retort, that unless we get to hear more of the music then a final judgment cannot be reached. But this vogue for "rediscovering" early 20th century British composers is all very well and good but it continues to virtually obliterate the chances of slightly later composers who DO have a considerable body of really good music to their name but are not getting it recorded.

And why? I have to say this! There is a strange sort of attraction, it seems to me, for some people in these "mysterious", "eccentric", lost early 20th century Brits-the York Bowens, Joseph Holbrookes, Percy Sherwoods, Walter Gaze Coopers, Roger Sachaverell Cokes.....and, yes, Havergal Brian ;D Some of these composers were totally ignored in life, some enjoyed brief periods of fame/exposure and then faded completely from the scene....but all this adds to the aura of Mystery.

So far...the only one of these figures who can fairly be claimed as a "great composer" is, indeed, Havergal Brian. I just get increasingly frustrated by the apparent obsession(far too strong a word, I know :)) with the early 20th century and the absolute neglect of those composers around whom there is no such aura, no mystique.....and you know PERFECTLY well to whom I am referring :)

An intemperate rant, no doubt.....but I don't really care any more ;D
Really? Not so sure about this. My idea of a great composers list would be pretty short and would include Mozart, Schubert, Beethoven, Bach, Haydn etc. Latterly you could add Shostakovitch, Bartok, Mahler. No Brits anywhere near this list except maybe Purcell at a pinch. I adore Elgar but wouldn't stretch to calling him a great composer of the very front rank. I love Tippett and Rawsthorne but do I think that they are "great"? No. They are good but patchy. At their very best they are excellent. Ditto another favourte of mine - Bliss. I think the term "great" is overdone. It's like people that call David Beckham a genius. I don't see or hear any evidence to suggest that Brian is great. He's an interesting figure with some good ideas and he's rugged, wayward, clumsy and sometimes lovable but great is really stretching it. I've never heard this claim before (oops, this is a lie, Simpson and Pinkett called him great, thinking about it). The jury is definitely out on Brian. My musical mates (many in the profession) think I'm utterly bonkers to give him the time of day and that's after I've played them some of the music and given them recordings of it. I like Brian but would never make any huge claims about his abilities.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 28, 2012, 07:25:00 AM
I'm afraid I tend to agree with John,here;much as I love composers like VW & Elgar!
I suppose Britten is the one who has come closest to some kind of international prominence. Is he a great composer though? Well,Peter Grimes & Billy Budd have a kind of resonance that extends beyond their country of origin. But I still don't think he's really up there Richard Strauss,Janacek or Verdi! (I confess,I do enjoy his own recordings of his operas & and own all of them!)
Of course,we think Elgar & VW are great,so who cares what anyone else thinks! And come to think of it we DO have one,indisputably,great composer! Handel! But,oh dear.....he was German!! ??? ::) ;D

Parts of the Gothic certainly do have a visionary quality which lifts it above the ordinary & for a composer from Brian's background it is,undoubtedly,an extraordinary achievement. Unfortunately,there are some purple moments & a clumsiness at times,which do bother me. I'm not a fan of Mahler,but even in a huge work like the Eighth symphony,there is a clarity & refinement to the orchestration which somehow eludes Brian.Having said that,it would be fascinating to see what kind of reaction the Gothic Symphony would get if it were to be performed in a European or US capital?
My guess is more of the same! But then again,you never know?!! ::) ;D
Critics? What do they know?!! >:( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 28, 2012, 07:43:30 AM
Truth.
Greatness = popularity.
Popularity = simplicity.
Symplicity = repetition.

Can you think of any more?

There are not enough smileys for my savage hatred.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 28, 2012, 08:02:40 AM
Oh....I certainly did not intend to initiate a discussion of the concept of "the great composer" :o

Again...I really don't care what critics/writers say or appear to agree about regarding the "accepted" Greats ;D

Bach was a "great composer"-no doubt-but I don't listen to his music. Mozart was a "great composer", but I only listen, occasionally, to his last three symphonies. Mahler was a "great composer" but I prefer Bruckner (whose music John detests).

We are all different, we have different tastes...that is inevitable and entirely right and proper. At times-for me-Brian DOES achieve "greatness"(whatever that may mean) because his music elicits in me an emotional reaction which is powerful enough to suggest that this is a man who, through his music, can (oh...I have no idea how to express it in words which can convery anything other than the most generalised and simplistic, perhaps to many meaningless response) 'touches my soul'.

When that happens then I "feel" in the presence of greatness.......and, again, that is enough for me as a simple listener :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 28, 2012, 08:11:42 AM
Taste is forced on us by commercialisation.

One has to be a bit odd to break away from commercialismness.

Go for it boys and girls.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2012, 08:19:44 AM
Greatness is a tricky subject. We can be powerfully affected by artists that have not (yet) been officially canonised, like Brian. I don't think popularity necessarily implies simplicity, and neither does complexity automatically betoken greatness, it can also be an inability to express yourself more clearly. I think Brian is a great composer, and his awkwardnesses are more dear to me than other men's perfections, because Brian is driven. If you're open to it, he travels with you through regions you've never been before. That, to me, constitutes greatness. And I wholly concur with Hattoff's remark that you can keep on listening to Brian - I still discover things even after having known a work for decades.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 28, 2012, 08:23:06 AM
I must admit I DO hate all these comparisons,really & despite what I said above,Part 2 of the Gothic is of a mind boggling range & complexity,yet unlike some other huge,complex works I can think of,I can hum most of it all the way through. I also prefer it to Mahler's eighth,anyway. It's more varied & like Dundonnell,I prefer his earlier symphonies,anyway! Although,unlike Dundonnell,my favourites are No's 1 & 4! :)
  Brian's third symphony is so wacky & different,it's got to be another contender,for me! I can't think of another contemporary symphony quite like it. It seems clumsily written & ungainly in places,but somehow extraordinary,even visionary! It's a symphony I can listen to over & over again & it still astonishes me. Maybe it is a great symphony? But no,it can't be,can it?! ::) ;D
Mind you,who cares,anyway! I just wish more orchestras would play it!
Incidentally,I love Bach & Mozart. Although,the Piano Concerto's of the latter all sound disturbingly alike to me! ::)

As to Daniel Jones. He's not even regarded as a 'major' symphonist in his native land!! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2012, 08:26:39 AM
Daniel Jones is more urgently in need of a reassessment than Havergal Brian. If Holmboe and Simpson can have their cycles, why not Daniel Jones?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 28, 2012, 08:40:13 AM
What was it Metro, Goldwyn or Meyer said about over/underestimating? Whatever it was he was right, cool, commercial and repetetive simplicity is everything.

Am I getting old?

About time the BBC was privatised.

Nothing wrong with Daniel Jones :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on November 28, 2012, 09:23:06 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2012, 08:19:44 AM
Greatness is a tricky subject.

Sorry, but I cannot help myself:

Quote from: Malvolio, reading a letter
. . . but be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon 'em.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2012, 09:24:18 AM
That was a quote waiting to happen...  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 28, 2012, 01:20:01 PM
The BBC remembered Brian's anniversary by playing The Jolly Miller during In Tune this evening.
Rather pleasing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2012, 01:27:24 PM
That's better than nothing, I suppose.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 28, 2012, 01:51:35 PM
Another review of The Complete Havergal Brian Songbook Vol 1 on Musicweb. This time around the reviewer has taken Johan's advice on the Message Board & used the earlier Brian Rayner Cook recording to help form his opinion! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2012, 01:53:52 PM
Really?! I'll have a look...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2012, 01:58:23 PM
"In response to a previous, unsympathetic review of this disc, a contributor to this site's message board suggested that listeners acquaint themselves with the old recording of some Brian songs made by Brian Rayner Cook and pianist Roger Vignoles [Toccata TOCC0005]. I don't have the CD transfer but I do have the LP from which it derives, recorded for Auracle (AUC1003). As suggested, I did listen." !!

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Nov12/Brian_songs_v1_5060192780154.htm#ixzz2DYqEV9vq (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Nov12/Brian_songs_v1_5060192780154.htm#ixzz2DYqEV9vq)


Here is what I wrote on the Message Board:
http://members2.boardhost.com/MusicWebUK/msg/1346625061.html (http://members2.boardhost.com/MusicWebUK/msg/1346625061.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2012, 02:58:01 PM
Malcolm MacDonald just wrote on Facebook: Paul Rapoport has reminded me that today is the 40th anniversary of the death of Havergal Brian. Today I listened to his Symphony 22 for the first time in several years (in a new performance). It's even better than I remembered it.

So he must have listened to the new Naxos CD, for which he'll be writing the liner notes.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 28, 2012, 04:08:10 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2012, 08:26:39 AM
Daniel Jones is more urgently in need of a reassessment than Havergal Brian. If Holmboe and Simpson can have their cycles, why not Daniel Jones?


I am hiring a sign-writer to trail "JOHAN SAYS............" across the skies ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 28, 2012, 06:01:26 PM
Another thing I forgot to mention the other day. Whilst listening to the ES 1 I was reminded of Brian's irreverence in including a version of the [British] National Anthem in the last movement, 'Carnival'. Does this suggest that the monarchy is a circus show?

:o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on November 28, 2012, 10:27:46 PM
The British national anthem needed cheering up, it's a bloody dirge.
Brian had a natural working class dislike of institutionalised  authority and privilege. He wouldn't have liked David Cameron and his ilk. ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 29, 2012, 01:40:52 AM
Typically, the National Anthem is also alluded to in In Memoriam and much more reverently...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 29, 2012, 01:42:32 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on Today at 02:08:10 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg677701#msg677701)

I am hiring a sign-writer to trail "JOHAN SAYS............" across the skies ;D ;D ;D



Lovely thought.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on November 29, 2012, 06:24:07 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 29, 2012, 01:42:32 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on Today at 02:08:10 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg677701#msg677701)

I am hiring a sign-writer to trail "JOHAN SAYS............" across the skies ;D ;D ;D



Lovely thought.  ;D


So THIS is how you guys keep the Brian Thread going... day... after day... after...

::) ::) ::)

Have they REALLY released a new Brian disc in the last five years?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 29, 2012, 07:33:48 AM
The Complete Havergal Brian Songbook, vol. 1
Stone Records 5060192780154, 2012

Cello concerto (1964)
MID PRICE *Dutton CDLX 7263, 2011

Orchestral music Volume 1
*Toccata TOCC0110, 2011

Orchestral music Volume 2
*Toccata TOCC0113, 2011

Symphony 13 (1959) . Violin concerto (1935) . English Suite no. 4 'Kindergarten' (?1924) . The Tinker's Wedding (1948)
MID PRICE Dutton CDLX 7296, November 2012

Symphony 9 (1951) . Symphony 11 (1954) .  Doctor Merryheart (1911-12) .
BUDGET PRICE *Dutton CDBP 9798, August 2010

Symphony 10 (1953-54) .  Symphony 30 (1967) .  Concerto for orchestra (1964) . English Suite no. 3  (1919-21)
MID PRICE *Dutton CDLX 7267, 2011

Symphony 6 Sinfonia Tragica (1948) .  Symphony 16 (1960)
Lyrita SRCD 295

Symphony 1 The Gothic (1919-1927)
Hyperion CDA67971/2 (2 CDs)


NINE CDs (and two are still coming - Songbook Vol. 2 and a Naxos CD)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on November 29, 2012, 07:58:35 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 29, 2012, 07:33:48 AM
The Complete Havergal Brian Songbook, vol. 1
Stone Records 5060192780154, 2012

Cello concerto (1964)
MID PRICE *Dutton CDLX 7263, 2011

Orchestral music Volume 1
*Toccata TOCC0110, 2011

Orchestral music Volume 2
*Toccata TOCC0113, 2011

Symphony 13 (1959) . Violin concerto (1935) . English Suite no. 4 'Kindergarten' (?1924) . The Tinker's Wedding (1948)
MID PRICE Dutton CDLX 7296, November 2012

Symphony 9 (1951) . Symphony 11 (1954) .  Doctor Merryheart (1911-12) .
BUDGET PRICE *Dutton CDBP 9798, August 2010

Symphony 10 (1953-54) .  Symphony 30 (1967) .  Concerto for orchestra (1964) . English Suite no. 3  (1919-21)
MID PRICE *Dutton CDLX 7267, 2011

Symphony 6 Sinfonia Tragica (1948) .  Symphony 16 (1960)
Lyrita SRCD 295

Symphony 1 The Gothic (1919-1927)
Hyperion CDA67971/2 (2 CDs)


NINE CDs  :o :o :o(and two are still coming - Songbook Vol. 2 and a Naxos CD)

I WAS just teasing you!! ::) :P ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 29, 2012, 07:59:55 AM
 :o


;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 29, 2012, 08:03:07 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on November 29, 2012, 07:33:48 AM
The Complete Havergal Brian Songbook, vol. 1
Stone Records 5060192780154, 2012

Cello concerto (1964)
MID PRICE *Dutton CDLX 7263, 2011

Orchestral music Volume 1
*Toccata TOCC0110, 2011

Orchestral music Volume 2
*Toccata TOCC0113, 2011

Symphony 13 (1959) . Violin concerto (1935) . English Suite no. 4 'Kindergarten' (?1924) . The Tinker's Wedding (1948)
MID PRICE Dutton CDLX 7296, November 2012

Symphony 9 (1951) . Symphony 11 (1954) .  Doctor Merryheart (1911-12) .
BUDGET PRICE *Dutton CDBP 9798, August 2010

Symphony 10 (1953-54) .  Symphony 30 (1967) .  Concerto for orchestra (1964) . English Suite no. 3  (1919-21)
MID PRICE *Dutton CDLX 7267, 2011

Symphony 6 Sinfonia Tragica (1948) .  Symphony 16 (1960)
Lyrita SRCD 295

Symphony 1 The Gothic (1919-1927)
Hyperion CDA67971/2 (2 CDs)


NINE CDs (and two are still coming - Songbook Vol. 2 and a Naxos CD)
If you are including this ancient old thing (I bought it last week) then I suppose you could also include the 4 Klassic Haus refurbishments with 2 or 3 more to come from that source in January.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 29, 2012, 08:07:50 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on Today at 18:03:07 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg677832#msg677832)
If you are including this ancient old thing (I bought it last week) then I suppose you could also include the 4 Klassic Haus refurbishments with 2 or 3 more to come from that source in January.



You're right, of course. We can add 4 more CDs!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 29, 2012, 12:59:38 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 29, 2012, 08:03:07 AM
If you are including this ancient old thing (I bought it last week) then I suppose you could also include the 4 Klassic Haus refurbishments with 2 or 3 more to come from that source in January.

What are the two or three more in January, more Aries recordings?

Also, not a commercial release, but 1 December Bristol performance of the 19th will be available to listen to the HBS website soon.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 29, 2012, 01:03:13 PM
ON the HBS website soon.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 29, 2012, 01:53:53 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 29, 2012, 12:59:38 PM
What are the two or three more in January, more Aries recordings?

Also, not a commercial release, but 1 December Bristol performance of the 19th will be available to listen to the HBS website soon.
Yes. Aries 2,3,4,5,9,12 and 23. No.2 nearly sorted already.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on November 29, 2012, 03:33:02 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 29, 2012, 01:53:53 PM
Yes. Aries 2,3,4,5,9,12 and 23. No.2 nearly sorted already.

This is wonderful news.....and just what the doctor ordered(Dr. Me, that is ;D ;D)!!

So we shall get a much, much better rendering of Symphonies Nos. 2, 3, 4 and No.5 at last on cd :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 29, 2012, 11:47:22 PM
Quote from: Dundonnell on November 29, 2012, 03:33:02 PM
This is wonderful news.....and just what the doctor ordered(Dr. Me, that is ;D ;D)!!

So we shall get a much, much better rendering of Symphonies Nos. 2, 3, 4 and No.5 at last on cd :) :)
I've yet to hear any results from Curt's efforts but he's working on them now. Please don't expect miracles but judging from his previous work there should be some improvement compared to the source materials. Fingers crossed!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 30, 2012, 12:04:47 AM
Just by way of clarification, this is the proposed list of Aries refurbishments:
1) Aries LP 1631. Symph 2. Mackerras. 52 mins. Complete LP. One CD release.
2) Aries LP 1617. Symph 3. Pope. 52 mins. Complete LP. A second CD release.
3) Symph 5. Pope. This is part of Aries 1629 and it will be coupled with Aries LP 1621 which is Symph 4. Poole. The rest of Aries 1629 (Symphony 25) isn't fit for purpose. This will make up a third release of Symphs 4 and 5 running for 68 mins.
4) Aries 1604. Symph 9,12 and 23 (Fredman, Del Mar and Goodman). Complete LP. Fourth CD release running for 50 mins.
I'll keep you updated. Any more Aries vinyl out there? Please let me know. I would be interested in getting hold of them. Indeed, any unusual vinyl would also be of interest.......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 30, 2012, 02:22:17 AM
One of the interesting things about the mackerrras performance is that there are two recordings of the broadcast on unsung composers, an average one and a better one. However in the former recording the scherzo is intensely exciting, in the latter less so. Can't explain this, I am listening to them on identical equipment. Hope the Aries restoration is exciting.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 30, 2012, 06:04:44 PM
Sorry, my previous post may have been misleading. I suspect that the inferior recording of S2 that had the exciting version of the scherzo wasn't the Mackerras performance. I don't know which one it was. I have just listened to the Mackerras performance and the Leslie Head performance (from Unsung Composers), but neither of those are trilling in the way the recording I mentioned was. That recording seems to have disappeared from US.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 01, 2012, 12:07:28 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 30, 2012, 06:04:44 PM
Sorry, my previous post may have been misleading. I suspect that the inferior recording of S2 that had the exciting version of the scherzo wasn't the Mackerras performance. I don't know which one it was. I have just listened to the Mackerras performance and the Leslie Head performance (from Unsung Composers), but neither of those are trilling in the way the recording I mentioned was. That recording seems to have disappeared from US.
I seem to remember that there were three performances by Leslie Head and these were available at one time as downloads. Must be one of those. No idea where they are and I didn't save them.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 01, 2012, 12:24:29 AM
No sweat, calyptorhynchus, I have all three of Leslie Head's performances. What's the duration of your version?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 01, 2012, 01:14:04 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 01, 2012, 12:24:29 AM
No sweat, calyptorhynchus, I have all three of Leslie Head's performances. What's the duration of your version?
Well, there's a surprise!!!!!!!!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 01, 2012, 02:02:02 PM
I'm beginning to think that there is no mystery, it's simply that I listened to a version, it wasn't the Naxos performance, and I was highly impressed with the scherzo, but on subsequent hearings of whatever version I didn't recapture the first thrill.

I have listened to the Mackerras, the second and third Head performances, and the average recording from US (found it on my hard drive). It wasn't any of those, and I doubt the first Head performance would be that different. One interesting thing is that that the old US recording (which I assume is the Mackerras) is truncated, it lasts 37 minutes and it ends 5 minutes into the finale. Either the original was like that, or I had a download fail.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2012, 04:35:43 AM
Firstly - I was in error, thinking I had all three of Leslie Head's performances. I don't, only the final two. Sorry.


Secondly, here is what Richard Whitehouse wrote about the latest Brian concert, in Bristol (you can find it here: http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_concert_review.php?id=10664 (http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_concert_review.php?id=10664)):


Concerts by John Pickard and the University of Bristol Symphony Orchestra tend to feature more than the occasional unexpected piece to liven up the increasingly moribund concert repertoire, and here proved no exception with only a second hearing (36 years after the first) for the Nineteenth Symphony by Havergal Brian.


Composed in the autumn of 1961, soon after the composer had heard his vast Gothic Symphony performed for the first time, the Nineteenth is the second of three in which Brian reverted to a nominally 'classical' format following the one-movement endeavours of the five preceding symphonies. Typical in its modest duration (just under 20 minutes) and its sizable forces (including triple woodwind and some nine percussionists), the piece is surely one of the most directly appealing among his later symphonies – its main ideas clear-cut without being predictable, and the evolution of each movement throwing up a fair number of formal quirks which enhance rather than circumvent the intelligibility of the overall design.


Pickard and the musicians certainly had the measure of the opening movement – with its brusque though systematic take on sonata precepts in which the assertive and martial intertwines with the reflective and lyrical, while taking in an eventful development and forthright coda – even if a degree of short-windedness was perhaps unavoidable. The central Adagio is the work's highlight, not least in the way that the emotionally intense main sections are complemented by two intermezzo-like episodes whose distinctive scoring and whimsical demeanour could only be Brian in their oblique opening-out of an expressive range that comes impressively into focus with the movement's nobly wrought culmination and inward coda. Nor is the finale in any sense an anti-climax – its infectious theme a foil to the more equivocal elements with which it alternates on the way to a heady apotheosis that crystallizes the tonal trajectory of the work. Throughout, the players surmounted the music's technical difficulties with conviction and relish.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2012, 04:37:45 AM
". . . brusque though systematic," eh?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2012, 04:39:39 AM
Quote from: Richard Whitehouseits infectious theme a foil to the more equivocal elements with which it alternates on the way to a heady apotheosis that crystallizes the tonal trajectory of the work

Heaven save us.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2012, 04:42:38 AM
It's a bit much, I agree. Though I understand what he is saying, because I know the music... I hope your day hasn't been spoiled by this.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2012, 04:47:50 AM
Oh, not at all, thanks! Nought can spoil my day, God 'a' mercy : )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2012, 05:03:30 AM
Glad to hear it. I 'know' the reviewer, Richard Whitehouse. He is a member of the HBS and I met him a few times during the past 20 years or more. He is well-informed and enthusiastic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 05, 2012, 06:25:29 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on December 05, 2012, 04:39:39 AM
Heaven save us.
Heaven save us indeed. What happened to good old fashioned English? This is the sort of stuff that used to get an airing in a section of Private Eye called "Pseuds Corner".
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2012, 06:36:54 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 05, 2012, 06:25:29 AM
Heaven save us indeed. What happened to good old fashioned English? This is the sort of stuff that used to get an airing in a section of Private Eye called "Pseuds Corner".


I know it well... Yes, I'm afraid there are a few stylistic nuggets there.  :-[
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2012, 06:37:56 AM
(* chortle *)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 05, 2012, 08:52:39 AM
Whitehouse would have been better to have simply precised what Malcolm wrote in his book ;D

It helps when you read for an English degree before the Music degree (as Malcolm did). Malcolm has the ability to use prose which is both readily understood yet, at the same time, beautifully and superbly evocative. It can create a mental picture of the music without resorting over much either to technicalities or to the sort of verbiage in which Mr. Whitehouse indulges.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 05, 2012, 09:04:43 AM
MM is superb, and remains a hard act to follow.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2012, 09:17:50 AM
Quote from: Richard Whitehouseits infectious theme a foil to the more equivocal elements with which it alternates on the way to a heady apotheosis that crystallizes the tonal trajectory of the work

Well, here Mr Whitehouse does seem to strike the perfect balance between pretension and incomprehensibility ; )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 06, 2012, 06:07:41 PM
I've discovered two ways to listen to unsatisfactory recordings from the radio (this of course applies to any such recordings, but I'm posting my thoughts here because brianites are unusually dependent on old radio recordings).

These recordings often sound bad, with lots of hiss, on MP3 players with earphones. I found a few months ago that listening to them on an iPad made them sound much better (I suspect that my iPad has a better sound card than my iPod Classic c 2007). Now I have discovered an app called Equ which allows you to set an equalisation curve. Even a no-nothing like myself can set up a curve that produces even better sound.

The other is to convert the files to .wavs, burn them on CDS, then listen to them on a car CD player, preferably in a car that is old and rattly, like mine. Of course they sound awful on a good sound sound system.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 07, 2012, 01:12:32 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on December 06, 2012, 06:07:41 PM
I've discovered two ways to listen to unsatisfactory recordings from the radio (this of course applies to any such recordings, but I'm posting my thoughts here because brianites are unusually dependent on old radio recordings).

These recordings often sound bad, with lots of hiss, on MP3 players with earphones. I found a few months ago that listening to them on an iPad made them sound much better (I suspect that my iPad has a better sound card than my iPod Classic c 2007). Now I have discovered an app called Equ which allows you to set an equalisation curve. Even a no-nothing like myself can set up a curve that produces even better sound.

The other is to convert the files to .wavs, burn them on CDS, then listen to them on a car CD player, preferably in a car that is old and rattly, like mine. Of course they sound awful on a good sound sound system.
Download a freebie to your PC called Goldwave. Open the MP3s into this and you can trim the top to reduce the hiss. Save as wavs and burn them to CDs.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 07, 2012, 02:26:31 AM
Just going off topic for a moment. I recently made an LP transfer from the Urania release of Georg Ludwig Jochum's 1944 recording - the very first - of Bruckner 2. Curt Timmons has tidied it up and it's actually very reasonable to listen to. I don't go much on Bruckner but some of you do and this might be a historic release of some significance worth buying for $3. Here's the link (when it opens scroll to the bottom):
http://www.klassichaus.us/Garage-Sale-Classics.php
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on December 07, 2012, 06:34:47 PM
Dropping in for a moment, to ask at least one you of faithful Havergalians to provide an avatar of The Composer wearing a Santa cap or other Christmas related attire,  for the general good of GMG.  Either photoshopped or an actual historical image.

Context of this request can be found in the "Identify Your Avatar" thread.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brahmsian on December 07, 2012, 06:35:52 PM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 07, 2012, 06:34:47 PM
Dropping in for a moment, to ask at least one you of faithful Havergalians to provide an avatar of The Composer wearing a Santa cap or other Christmas related attire,  for the general good of GMG.  Either photoshopped or an actual historical image.

Context of this request can be found in the "Identify Your Avatar" thread.

Excellent!  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on December 09, 2012, 12:32:53 AM

Havergal Christmas
Here's a link to a piccy. I can't post pictures directly to this board.

http://www.mediafire.com/?6hauizijjwwq5us#!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 09, 2012, 12:40:15 AM
Well done, Steve!  :D



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 09, 2012, 01:14:08 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 09, 2012, 12:40:15 AM
Well done, Steve!  :D
If he came down my chimney I would phone the police immediately.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 09, 2012, 01:22:33 AM
A quick update. I've listened to the new Klassic Haus Aries stuff this morning:
1) Symph 2
2) Symph 3
3) Symphs 4 and 5
4) Symphs 9,12, and 23
Overall, much improved on previous incarnations. Less hiss, a bit more warmth and the channels in 9 corrected (they were previously reversed). Not digital state of the art, of course, but a very creditable stab at refurbishing some old recordings and getting the best out of them. Those of you who bought the Holmes VC/Symph 28 or Symphs 8/14 transfers will know what to expect. Actually, these new ones are somewhat better than that.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on December 09, 2012, 12:31:25 PM
Super :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 10, 2012, 01:16:42 AM
Quote from: Dundonnell on December 09, 2012, 12:31:25 PM
Super :) :)
Super duper actually :D :D :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 19, 2012, 07:58:33 PM
Bristol performance of Symphony 19 now streaming on the HBS website. Will listen when I get home.

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2012, 11:50:41 PM
Good news! Will listen, too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on December 20, 2012, 04:42:37 AM
Just wrapped the Brabbins 'Gothic' for my aunt for Christmas. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 20, 2012, 04:43:27 AM
Havergal for the holidays!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2012, 05:38:03 AM
Quote from: Brian on Today at 14:42:37 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg681861#msg681861)
Just wrapped the Brabbins 'Gothic' for my aunt for Christmas. :)



Spread the love!  ;D


>
Quote from: karlhenning on December 20, 2012, 04:43:27 AM
Havergal for the holidays!


Ho-Ho-Hovergal assents.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Lethevich on December 20, 2012, 06:14:43 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on June 16, 2012, 02:01:03 AM
Hi Sarge,
Since the demise of town and city shopping centres due to the rise of the out of town shopping malls, the high streets in the UK are full of empty shops/stores. These empty premises have been filled with "charity shops". Anyone in the UK can set up such a shop by obtaining charitable status from the taxman but they must prove that they are doing some sort of social service or have an educational purpose. To fund themselves many charities open shops selling second hand goods, where anyone can donate items for free and the shop assistants are often retired people who donate their services for free. Some more well known examples are Oxfam, the Red Cross and Barnardos (a charity for orphans).
A problem is that the executives of the charity are allowed to cream off expenses which a minority do, to the extent of removing 90% of the income for themselves and only 10% going to their cause. Charities are now big business here in the UK.
The Havergal Brian Society is an educational charity, albeit a very small specialised one with no shops in the high street at all :) but there would be nothing to stop them opening one if they wished. Can I suggest opening one in Dover? selfishly near me 8)

An addendum to an ancient post (I'm slowly going through the backlog) - the British Heart Foundation is particularly bad at this, as they employ full-time both a manager and sub-manager, Oxfam from my experience just employ a manager, and sometimes spread them between several stores.

Re. the thread - I ought to get my hands on that new Dutton disc at some point.

Edit: noo! I missed the 27th being performed? That is one of my favourites ;_;
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 20, 2012, 07:01:11 AM
Quote from: Brian on December 20, 2012, 04:42:37 AM
Just wrapped the Brabbins 'Gothic' for my aunt for Christmas. :)
What has she done to offend you? :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 20, 2012, 01:19:29 PM
Re the Bristol 19th

I think this is a very nice performance of one of the few HB symphonies that is largely fun, with little grimness or violence (along with symphonies 11 & 15).

With this performance we now have reasonable recordings of all the HB symphonies except 24 and 26 (and perhaps 28).

This performance seemed very intimate, almost chamber music in places, though with plenty of brass for the (few) loud bits. I loved the detail of the interactions of the harp and timpani at one point, and the violin and flute solos. The build-up to the climax of the lyric slow movement was was impressive, (this slow movement is one of HB's happiest). I like calm and unhurried performances of Brian's music, and this is one of them. It's encourgaing that (with a motivating conductor) a non-professional orchestra can put on such a good perforamnce of HB's music, which is not the easiest of music to play.

All in all I think the Bristol concert-goers got a treat, and thanks to the HBS for sharing it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2012, 02:01:49 PM
Nice review, calyptorhynchus. I concur wholeheartedly. John Pickard, of course, isn't anyone. A symphonist himself and someone who knows Brian's work very very well. He was also instrumental in getting Martyn Brabbins to conduct 'The Gothic'. I listened to the performance this afternoon. It's good we now have a second performance of this very attractive work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 21, 2012, 01:27:08 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2012, 02:01:49 PM
Nice review, calyptorhynchus. I concur wholeheartedly. John Pickard, of course, isn't anyone. A symphonist himself and someone who knows Brian's work very very well. He was also instrumental in getting Martyn Brabbins to conduct 'The Gothic'. I listened to the performance this afternoon. It's good we now have a second performance of this very attractive work.
Listened to it a couple of times in the car and once at home. Good sound. Shame about the ensemble at the opening but it soon settles down. A strange mixture of good ideas and old ground revisited. The usual clumsy string writing but well worth a listen. I liked it. Good performance overall I must say. There are a few passing intonation issues in the strings and the habit of playing dotted rhythms as triplets on occasion (he says, having not seen the score :D). If this is the standard of some of our amateur university orchestras then I am greatly enthused and impressed.  Hats off to them. Our orchestra at Surrey University was chronic. I hope that Mr.Pickard does some more Brian. 21 maybe.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 06, 2013, 10:53:38 PM
Four new CDs featuring Aries LP restorations are now available from Klassic Haus. Here's the link:
http://www.klassichaus.us/Home.php
They are excellent
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2013, 03:34:26 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 06, 2013, 10:53:38 PM
Four new CDs featuring Aries LP restorations are now available from Klassic Haus.

Thanks for the info. Just placed an order for 2, 3, 4 and 5.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 07, 2013, 03:59:51 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2013, 03:34:26 AM
Thanks for the info. Just placed an order for 2, 3, 4 and 5.

Sarge
Do you buy the CDs or the downloads? Just asking seeing as USA to Germany is quite a long way for snail mail. I've taken a shine to No.9. Rather good ending I think.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2013, 04:09:24 AM
Yours truly has, again, furnished the liner notes. I think Curt Timmons has done an excellent job, several excellent jobs, to be precise. Symphony No. 3, under Stanley Pope, for example, never sounded better, and I have known and cherished the recording for almost 30 years... Cilgwyn, if you buy anything, buy No. 3 (I know it's one of your favourite Brian symphonies)! I hope I did the symphonies justice and provided enough information to help the listener get his or her bearings, because I didn't have much space.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2013, 04:28:38 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 07, 2013, 03:59:51 AM
Do you buy the CDs or the downloads? Just asking seeing as USA to Germany is quite a long way for snail mail. I've taken a shine to No.9. Rather good ending I think.

I buy the CDs (I'm Old School  ;D ). And yeah, it takes a while--usually three to four weeks. It's not the mail that delays it but rather, I think, the process of getting through customs.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2013, 04:37:39 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 07, 2013, 03:59:51 AMI've taken a shine to No.9. Rather good ending I think.

The new CD with 9 seemed, when I was ordering, to be a less urgent need as I already have two Ninths on CD (Del Mar and Groves). But I've just been listening repeatedly to the MP3 of the 23rd I got years ago from Johann and I'm enjoying it immensely. It has a splendid ending too. I may have to order it.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2013, 04:48:32 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on Today at 14:37:39 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg686323#msg686323)
The new CD with 9 seemed, when I was ordering, to be a less urgent need as I already have two Ninths on CD (Del Mar and Groves). But I've just been listening repeatedly to the MP3 of the 23rd I got years ago from Johann and I'm enjoying it immensely. It has a splendid ending too. I may have to order it.

Sarge



No. 12 under Del Mar, on the same CD as 23, sounds terrific, too...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 07, 2013, 07:12:27 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2013, 04:09:24 AM
Yours truly has, again, furnished the liner notes. I think Curt Timmons has done an excellent job, several excellent jobs, to be precise. Symphony No. 3, under Stanley Pope, for example, never sounded better, and I have known and cherished the recording for almost 30 years... Cilgwyn, if you buy anything, buy No. 3 (I know it's one of your favourite Brian symphonies)! I hope I did the symphonies justice and provided enough information to help the listener get his or her bearings, because I didn't have much space.
Did you write the notes in a very small room then or is the house just full of clutter? :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 07, 2013, 07:18:59 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2013, 04:28:38 AM
I buy the CDs (I'm Old School  ;D ). And yeah, it takes a while--usually three to four weeks. It's not the mail that delays it but rather, I think, the process of getting through customs.

Sarge
I'm very old school indeed in that I prefer analogue/vinyl but for Klassic Haus stuff I download the FLACs and artwork, burn a CD and keep a stock of empty jewel cases at hand to finish the job. Same end result but quicker. Anyway, be patient - it will be worth the wait and I agree with Johan in that No.3 is probably the best of the lot.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2013, 08:03:18 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on Today at 17:12:27 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg686363#msg686363)
Did you write the notes in a very small room then or is the house just full of clutter? :D



Both. But that was our secret!  :'( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on January 07, 2013, 08:05:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2013, 04:37:39 AMJohann
8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2013, 08:09:29 AM
Quote from: Christo on Today at 18:05:23 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg686380#msg686380)
   8)



It feels good to be German.  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2013, 09:59:27 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2013, 08:09:29 AM
Quote from: Christo on Today at 18:05:23 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg686380#msg686380)
   8)



It feels good to be German.  8)


;D :D ;D  Sorry! I've lived in Germany too long, Johan.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2013, 10:03:46 AM
That's okay, Feldwebel Fels.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2013, 10:12:36 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2013, 10:03:46 AM
That's okay, Feldwebel Fels.  ;D

Feldwebel Fels...I like the sound of that. If my grandparents hadn't emigrated from Germany to the US in 1930, I could imagine that as my GMG user name  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on January 07, 2013, 10:15:43 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2013, 10:12:36 AM
Feldwebel Fels...I like the sound of that. If my grandparents hadn't emigrated to the US in 1930, I could imagine that as my GMG user name  :D

Nice ring to it, indeed.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2013, 10:28:31 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on Today at 20:12:36 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=1453.msg686406#msg686406)
Feldwebel Fels...I like the sound of that. If my grandparents hadn't emigrated from Germany to the US in 1930, I could imagine that as my GMG user name  :D

Sarge



It's still not too late...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 07, 2013, 11:10:51 AM
I've downloaded the Mp3s of 2 & 3.

Will listen to these asap.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 07, 2013, 08:33:23 PM
I've listened to 2, very good sound quality. Much better than the previous shared recording.

On to the rest!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 13, 2013, 09:34:33 PM
Many pages ago I opined that HB may have written the shortest symphony (No.22 @ 9:30m).

Now I note that Webern has a symphony which only lasts 7:57m.

:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 14, 2013, 12:24:42 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 13, 2013, 09:34:33 PM
Many pages ago I opined that HB may have written the shortest symphony (No.22 @ 9:30m).

Now I note that Webern has a symphony which only lasts 7:57m.

:D
Webern's runs for less than 8 minutes but it feels like 8 hours.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 14, 2013, 03:49:44 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 13, 2013, 09:34:33 PM
Many pages ago I opined that HB may have written the shortest symphony (No.22 @ 9:30m).

Now I note that Webern has a symphony which only lasts 7:57m.

:D

Rued Langgaard's Symphony #11 "Ixion" lasts 6:20 in the Dausgaard recording; 6:03 in the Stupel.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/ngmg/lang9daus.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/may11/langg101112stupel.jpg)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: thranx on January 21, 2013, 09:38:20 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 14, 2013, 12:24:42 AM
Webern's runs for less than 8 minutes but it feels like 8 hours.

Webern makes my teeth hurt.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 28, 2013, 02:12:46 AM
A message for Colin Mackie
Colin - your inbox is full so I couldn't reply to your message earlier today via this site. Please contact me via email. My address is john.whitmore@btinternet.com. Send me the titles of the 2 Klassic Haus issues you want plus a third one from the LSSO section. I will send you 3 CDs from Delph once I get the info from you. Guaranteed.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 28, 2013, 02:43:40 AM
You could also try Facebook or the Art Music Forum, John.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 28, 2013, 04:44:32 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 28, 2013, 02:43:40 AM
You could also try Facebook or the Art Music Forum, John.
Yep. Good idea.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 29, 2013, 07:03:55 AM
My Klassic Haus order arrived today. Symphonies 2, 3, 4 and 5. Listening to the Cook/Pope "Wine of Summer" now. Sounds great!

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 30, 2013, 12:32:33 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 29, 2013, 07:03:55 AM
My Klassic Haus order arrived today. Symphonies 2, 3, 4 and 5. Listening to the Cook/Pope "Wine of Summer" now. Sounds great!

Sarge
Glad you like them. Can you please let me know whether Curt has contacted you about the Symph 3 transfer. My ears let me down, unfortunately, during this transfer and it was nearly a quarter tone sharp. This was corrected and the new files are spot on. I think your CD was sent before we found this out (thanks to Martyn Becker) so you really need a replacement. Get back to me and it will be sorted.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 30, 2013, 04:47:18 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 30, 2013, 12:32:33 AM
Glad you like them. Can you please let me know whether Curt has contacted you about the Symph 3 transfer. My ears let me down, unfortunately, during this transfer and it was nearly a quarter tone sharp. This was corrected and the new files are spot on. I think your CD was sent before we found this out (thanks to Martyn Becker) so you really need a replacement. Get back to me and it will be sorted.

Curt has not contacted me (I believe the only way he could is by snail mail--unless payment through PayPal gives him access to my email address). I'm not blessed (or cursed  ;D ) with perfect pitch so the recording sounds okay to me. If he wants to send me a replacement copy, fine, but I'm not sure it's necessary. What do you think?

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 30, 2013, 05:00:04 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 30, 2013, 04:47:18 AM
Curt has not contacted me (I believe the only way he could is by snail mail--unless payment through PayPal gives him access to my email address). I'm not blessed (or cursed  ;D ) with perfect pitch so the recording sounds okay to me. If he wants to send me a replacement copy, fine, but I'm not sure it's necessary. What do you think?

Sarge
I think you should get the proper version. That's what you paid for. Send me your address and I will make one here and post it. Keep the case and artwork. I'll just send a CD.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 03, 2013, 02:56:37 PM
The projected Naxos Ss 22-24 is rather long in coming. It isn't listed for release in March 2013 on the Naxos website.

Perhaps MM is taking a long time to write his booklet notes.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 03, 2013, 02:58:28 PM
I don't know what's taking it so long, either. We must have patience, I guess. As far as I know, MM was busy on the notes a few months ago.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 12, 2013, 01:22:55 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2013, 04:09:24 AM
Yours truly has, again, furnished the liner notes. I think Curt Timmons has done an excellent job, several excellent jobs, to be precise. Symphony No. 3, under Stanley Pope, for example, never sounded better, and I have known and cherished the recording for almost 30 years... Cilgwyn, if you buy anything, buy No. 3 (I know it's one of your favourite Brian symphonies)! I hope I did the symphonies justice and provided enough information to help the listener get his or her bearings, because I didn't have much space.
My apologies,Johan! I don't miss much do I?!!! ??? :o
I have downloaded the third symphony from the Klassic Haus website. This is marvellous! What are these people? Magicians?!! How do they do it?!! It's never sounded this good! Such a nice touch to have the original Aries sleeve design visible (if that's the right word for it) & all the notes & details of the original broadcast. A very professional job. I almost wish I'd bought the cd,now! And of course,you're notes! Malcolm MacDonald,look out!
The best ever performance of one of the most endlessly engrossing & fascinating 20thc symphonies freely available on cd, and as a download,at last!!

I also got my first glimpse of the new Havergal Brian website. I'm very impressed!! Very well laid out,unlike some;but in an interesting way.I'm sure it will attract allot of new visitors.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2013, 01:25:20 PM
Hello, cilgwyn! Long time no see! Yes, Curt is really the Yankee Wizard. (The Second is just as good, btw). Good of you to remind me of the revamped HBS site - I'll have a look. Last week it wasn't ready yet.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2013, 01:40:53 PM
Looks good! I guess the possibility of listening to Brian performances (in the Recordings Library, members' area only) will be implemented gradually...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 13, 2013, 07:13:03 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2013, 01:25:20 PM
Hello, cilgwyn! Long time no see! Yes, Curt is really the Yankee Wizard. (The Second is just as good, btw). Good of you to remind me of the revamped HBS site - I'll have a look. Last week it wasn't ready yet.
Do you mean the Yank Sorceror?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 13, 2013, 07:32:45 AM
No, Uncle Samphony.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 13, 2013, 02:53:52 PM
I've taken you're advice ,Johan(couldn't resist :( ;D) Brian's Symphony 2 is downloading from Klassic Haus at this very moment!

Actually,I may be in a minority;but flawed as it is;I must confess,it is actually one of my favourite Brian symphonies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 13, 2013, 03:11:52 PM
Good man! I like the work more than I did. It has its own unique atmosphere, darker than its successor.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 13, 2013, 04:02:00 PM
I was fascinated by the symphony,as a youngster. The brooding,sombre atmosphere & particularly,Brian's description of it as,'Man in his cosmic loneliness'. That really struck a chord with me. I would walk around with that 'theme' going around in my head. It had an epic quality about;and like Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique or Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony it had that doom laden,autobiographical feel to it. It could have almost been composed by a late romantic,in that sense;but the orchestration is very 20thc,maybe as close to Mahler as Brian got? Yet,like all the best 'late romantic' symphonies (not saying it is,I'm just referring to it's mood) it's not a gloomy work. Like say,Mahler's Sixth,which isn't exactly a jolly work to say the least,the impact of the work is ultimately cathartic. It lifts you up! Of course,Brian had been reading Goethe,hadn't he?!. Another connection with all those high flown,generally doom laden,late romantics!
Years later,when my D90 cassette had long been chewed up,I bought the Marco Polo recording & wondered why I'd been so fired up by it? As it turned out,it was just a lousy performance. I only wonder how many people have been disappointed by that recording who might actually enjoy it if they heard the Mackerras performance?

As you observed,a few pages ago ;D,the Leslie Head performances are very satisfying,too. They may be a bit rough hewn,but there is a pioneering quality to them,which adds to the drama. Almost good enough for a Klassic Haus,in some ways....but maybe not? (For the converted Brianite,I suppose) He certainly makes the most of the musicians at his disposal. Excellent!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 14, 2013, 03:36:42 AM
I knew I should have joined the village gang!! :(

I'll try and make the cdr later;just in case I've changed my mind,again? It has to be said,No 2 isn't exactly a 'fan' favourite! But maybe it has one?!! :)
Looking forward to hearing the usual Klassic Haus' wizardry,anyway!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 14, 2013, 11:29:09 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 12, 2013, 01:22:55 PM
My apologies,Johan! I don't miss much do I?!!! ??? :o
I have downloaded the third symphony from the Klassic Haus website. This is marvellous! What are these people? Magicians?!! How do they do it?!! It's never sounded this good! Such a nice touch to have the original Aries sleeve design visible (if that's the right word for it) & all the notes & details of the original broadcast. A very professional job. I almost wish I'd bought the cd,now! And of course,you're notes! Malcolm MacDonald,look out!
The best ever performance of one of the most endlessly engrossing & fascinating 20thc symphonies freely available on cd, and as a download,at last!!

I also got my first glimpse of the new Havergal Brian website. I'm very impressed!! Very well laid out,unlike some;but in an interesting way.I'm sure it will attract allot of new visitors.
Glad you are enjoying the CD. There was a bit of a false start with this one. It was nearly a quarter tone sharp on the source material and there was also a peculiar glitch in the 1st movement so we had to pull the plug for a few days while it was sorted out. Everything is now fine. Listening to it now. I quite like it. Just a bit of hiss remains but removing this would have taken the sheen off the top. The performance is absolutely top notch without a shadow of a doubt. One of the best bootlegs in town. I'm really tempted to do something with the Schmidt Gothic..................any more Aries out there that I can borrow??
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 14, 2013, 03:36:35 PM
Whoa,this sounds good! :o ;D I'm listening to the Klassic Haus Brian 2,right now. I've got as far as the,so called,'Battle scherzo'! This reminds me of hearing old analogue recordings on cds for the first time,back in the 80s. The way some of them came out sounding freshly minted. The sound really opens out. I can also hear why I'm so keen on this symphony & can't really understand the negative responses it gets. Right from that mysterious opening (ooh,Brian was good at openings!) it grabs hold of my attention. Okay,there are one or two 'hairy' bits where Brian's concentration seems to lose focus;but the good ideas definately outweigh the bad. A very engrossing,rewarding symphony,indeed!

By the way,any chance of Klassic Haus utilising their wizardry on the Aries Lp of Fricker's Fifth Symphony? Fricker seems to have allot of admirers. I know Dundonnell is one of them.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 14, 2013, 10:40:00 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 14, 2013, 03:36:35 PM
Whoa,this sounds good! :o ;D I'm listening to the Klassic Haus Brian 2,right now. I've got as far as the,so called,'Battle scherzo'! This reminds me of hearing old analogue recordings on cds for the first time,back in the 80s. The way some of them came out sounding freshly minted. The sound really opens out. I can also hear why I'm so keen on this symphony & can't really understand the negative responses it gets. Right from that mysterious opening (ooh,Brian was good at openings!) it grabs hold of my attention. Okay,there are one or two 'hairy' bits where Brian's concentration seems to lose focus;but the good ideas definately outweigh the bad. A very engrossing,rewarding symphony,indeed!

By the way,any chance of Klassic Haus utilising their wizardry on the Aries Lp of Fricker's Fifth Symphony? Fricker seems to have allot of admirers. I know Dundonnell is one of them.
Do you have the Fricker LP?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 15, 2013, 03:31:00 AM
No,I'm afraid not;but as you may know,his music is neglected & he's rated very highly by some. The download of the Fifth,available at the AMF,is........well,I think it was provided by 'you-know-who' & I don't want to seem ungrateful. However,I believe,even Colin would concede,it could be better!
There were some other non Brian 'Aries' releases,but things like Arnold's marvellous Fourth,are now available in commercial recordings,as you know.

Oh,I've just found an archive post on the gmg ('The Music room) where Dundonnell replies to a post I made about the Aries Lp;and I quote (his words) "now that is a work I would like to see remastered for cd to replace my old download..."!
  In my 'Fricker' google,I also discovered that the run in I had with the Lachenmann admirer (is that spelt right?!! ::)) on the old,defunct,Radio 3 message board has been preserved. All I did was describe the neglect of Robert Simpson (in the concert halls) as a 'bit of a mystery'! G*d help you if you said anything positive about Robert Simpson over there!!! Talk about venom!!! :o :(



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 15, 2013, 04:06:34 AM
Just had a look for Aries Lps on ebay. They really are as rare as hens teeth. At least from a uk seller! (I notice they did Khatchaturian. Why?!! ::) He wasn't exactly a hard to get composer?! What with the Onedin Line on the tv!! ;D)
To think my 'Michael G Thomas' record lists were full of them! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 15, 2013, 04:37:27 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 15, 2013, 04:06:34 AM
Just had a look for Aries Lps on ebay. They really are as rare as hens teeth. At least from a uk seller! (I notice they did Khatchaturian. Why?!! ::) He wasn't exactly a hard to get composer?! What with the Onedin Line on the tv!! ;D)
To think my 'Michael G Thomas' record lists were full of them! :(
He wasn't even a composer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 15, 2013, 05:39:20 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 04, 2013, 12:08:35 AM
Havergal Brian Appreciation Society:

http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/361743007408/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 12, 2013, 06:50:50 AM
An update for you all. Curt Timmons has got hold of the Aries LP of symphonies 18,19 and 22. This should be available from Klassic Haus in the next month or so depending on the quality of the pressing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 27, 2013, 12:10:39 PM
Aries LP arrived safely in the USA. Pressing is good so Curt will be getting this restored in April.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on March 29, 2013, 02:41:52 AM
(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/8/5/8572833.jpg)

http://www.mdt.co.uk/brian-havergal-symphonies-22-23-24-alexander-walker-naxos.html (http://www.mdt.co.uk/brian-havergal-symphonies-22-23-24-alexander-walker-naxos.html)

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2013, 02:44:45 AM
Good!!  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on March 29, 2013, 08:43:24 AM
At last.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 29, 2013, 09:22:41 AM
Great news, indeed. I would have preferred, say 19 instead of 22 (we already have the very good LSSO performance on CD). But we Brianites can't be choosers. I mean, we really can't. They won't let us  :D  We'll take what they give us.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 30, 2013, 08:38:23 AM
Wonderful! Apparently,this will be worlds away from the old Marco Polo standards,so nothing for people like me to moan about! :( ;D No 19 aside (I'd like No14! ;D) it will be great to have 22-24 on one cd & presumably in order?! The English Suite No 1 will be more than a fill up & I will,finally, be able to make my cdr of professional performances of the surviving suites (as suggested by Johan) in order!
As to the old Hull Youth SO performance,a nostalgia item for some,a coaster for others,I fear! (Or an Amazon/ ebay sale?!). Enthusiastic pioneers,and I applaud them for that,but I don't think they'll ever be up there with the LSSO! (More flattery,I'm afraid,John! ;D).

Incidentally,if this is the resumption of the MP/Naxos cycle,this could be a record for a recording hiatus? I mean,how many years now,is it,since the last Marco Polo HB symphony recording?!! Phew!! ::) ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 31, 2013, 08:32:23 PM
The new Naxos CD appeared on the Naxos website a few hours ago as a forthcoming release. You can read Malcolm MacDonald's Cd liner nots there. As usual with MM they are very informative.

Only another month to wait!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on March 31, 2013, 08:49:21 PM
(http://cdn.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/8.572833.gif)

Symphony No. 22, "Symphonia brevis"
1.         I. Maestoso e ritmico 00:04:45
2.         II. Tempo di Marcia e Ritmico 00:04:37
Symphony No. 23
3.         I. Moderato 00:06:56
4.         II. Adagio non troppo ma pesante 00:06:48
Symphony No. 24 in D major
5.         Symphony No. 24 in D major 00:16:29
English Suite No. 1, Op. 12
6.         I. Characteristic March 00:04:54
7.         II. Valse 00:05:18
8.         III. Under the Bench Tree 00:03:29
9.         IV. Interlude 00:02:18
10.         V. Hymn 00:03:50
11.         VI. Carnival 00:06:02
      
Total Playing Time: 01:05:26
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 01, 2013, 02:04:49 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 29, 2013, 09:22:41 AM
Great news, indeed. I would have preferred, say 19 instead of 22 (we already have the very good LSSO performance on CD). But we Brianites can't be choosers. I mean, we really can't. They won't let us  :D  We'll take what they give us.

Sarge


No. 19 is there, Sarge, in a new performance (only the second one!), with John Pickard and the Bristol University Symphony Orchestra. You can stream it from the HBS site. Of course, a professional performance would be wonderful, but remember what we're getting now: the first experience of 22-24 as a trilogy, under one conductor and with one orchestra, in (I hope) good sound. I've already heard the CD is a good one...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 02, 2013, 10:01:47 PM
Feeling pleased with myself at the moment. I remembered there is an effect in Audacity (probably other audio editing software as well) of altering the tempo without altering the pitch. I have been using this to rectify various tempo injustices. Finally I got to Brian 28 in Stokowski's performance (the only one). I made the second movement 30% shorter and the third movement 20% longer and the effect is very pleasing.

(Be warned, if you try this with anything, that the audio quality is not great in stretched or compressed passages, but it gives you an idea of what the music should sound like).

The Brian 28 as tinkered with by me is my best tinkered with piece yet, mainly because the sound quality wasn't that great to begin with. Anyway, my alterations make 28 sound much more like the surrounding symphonies than you would have guessed from the original.

But it's no substitute for a good recording. (Audacity doesn't have a filter which tones down percussion-for the finale  :)).

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 02, 2013, 10:15:16 PM
Sounds fascinating! Any way you could upload it and provide us with a link?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 03, 2013, 05:08:32 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 02, 2013, 10:01:47 PM
Feeling pleased with myself at the moment. I remembered there is an effect in Audacity (probably other audio editing software as well) of altering the tempo without altering the pitch. I have been using this to rectify various tempo injustices. Finally I got to Brian 28 in Stokowski's performance (the only one). I made the second movement 30% shorter and the third movement 20% longer and the effect is very pleasing.

(Be warned, if you try this with anything, that the audio quality is not great in stretched or compressed passages, but it gives you an idea of what the music should sound like).

The Brian 28 as tinkered with by me is my best tinkered with piece yet, mainly because the sound quality wasn't that great to begin with. Anyway, my alterations make 28 sound much more like the surrounding symphonies than you would have guessed from the original.

But it's no substitute for a good recording. (Audacity doesn't have a filter which tones down percussion-for the finale  :)).
Quick question. Why?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 03, 2013, 12:35:47 PM
Hi

Quick answer, because Malcolm MacDonald in his volume 2, stigmatises Stowkowski's performance for making the second movement the slow movement and playing the third (the real slow movement) too fast.

The results of my tinkering indicate he is right.

:) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2013, 12:37:31 PM
He is and your tinkering proves it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 04, 2013, 01:06:34 PM
Still on the theme of Symphony 28 and the tempi of the middle movements. Malcolm Macdonald reckons that the music of the second movement sounds best at crochet 108. This movement is in 3/4 time but I don't know how many bars are in this movement to calculate a target time for it. Does anyone have access to a photocopy of the score  to tell me? (And does the time signature stay the same throughout the movement?.

Thanks
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 05, 2013, 02:03:18 PM
The second movement is 92 bars long. That's 276 crotchets so if it were to be played metronomically - which it wouldn't be in the real world of course - it would work out at around 2 mins 30 seconds against Stokey's 4 mins 43 seconds. A huge difference but where is the 108 coming from? An opinion or an indication on the score?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 05, 2013, 08:15:16 PM
Thanks John
Crochet 108 is Malcolm MacDonald's suggested tempo. I shortened the second movement from 4.30 to 3.30 approx and it sounds better, 2.30 might be a bit too fast. I also slowed the third movement (not suggested by MM) and that seemed to add gravitas to the symphony (which is only about 12 minutes long anyway and doesn't drag!)

:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 07, 2013, 12:02:58 AM
Ok everyone

At this page you can download the two altered movements of symphony 28

www.jleonard.net/HB28.htm

(Right click and save linked file)

Also on that page is a copy of the Del Mar 1966 symphony 12 performance with the funeral march section slowed down (a request from a member of this forum). See what you think of that!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 07, 2013, 04:04:49 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 07, 2013, 12:02:58 AM
Ok everyone

At this page you can download the two altered movements of symphony 28

www.jleonard.net/HB28.htm

(Right click and save linked file)

Also on that page is a copy of the Del Mar 1966 symphony 12 performance with the funeral march section slowed down (a request from a member of this forum). See what you think of that!
An interesting experiment but basically what we have for the 2nd movement of No.28 is:
1) The actual real performance (good, bad or indifferent but still real) running for 4 mins 43 seconds.
2) The so called preferred tempo (crochet = 108) clocking in at an estimated 2 mins 30 secs.
3) Your modification (because crotchet = 108 sounds too fast to you, SUBJECTIVELY) lasting for 3 mins 44 secs.
As I say, very interesting but at the end of the day that's all it is. Interesting. This is approaching Joyce Hatto territory. Who is right? The conductor, the musicologist or the enthusiast who just likes the music and wants to experiment with it (and good for you)? It also beggars another question - is the tempo chosen for the Royal Festival hall the same as the one you would choose for, just by way of an example, St Paul's Cathedral? Get into your mind something like Candide or Portsmouth Point. The answer is that the tempo must fit with the circumstances. Klemperer played the 3rd movement of Beethoven 6 in a number of ways, not just his famous plod on EMI (although I admit to liking this particular plod enormously because of the clean articulation). It's articulation that really matters, not tempo. What is the correct speed for HB 28? There is no correct speed. Poor playing can sound fast and rushed, expert playing can sound slow even if both tempi are identical because the ear is easily tricked. My personal opinion is that you should just accept performances as they stand, warts and all. Having said that, pitch correcting a slow running tape is reasonable enough because what you are doing there is restoring the performace to its original state. Which do I prefer of the alternatives you have posted? All I can say is that Stokey does sound a bit slow but this may be linked to the hell hole that is Maida Vale. I might just make a 1 minute version of Russlan and Ludmilla this afternoon just to spite the strings and put it up by a major third to make the opening violin runs more tricky to play. :D Haven't listened to your version of Norman's Symph 12. For me he could do no wrong. Very thought provoking.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 07, 2013, 04:51:25 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 07, 2013, 12:02:58 AM
Ok everyone

At this page you can download the two altered movements of symphony 28

www.jleonard.net/HB28.htm

Thank you. Very interesting experiment. And it sounds appropriate at your chosen speed. (Will you give us MacDonald's 108 too?)

That said, I don't have a problem with Stokie's slowish tempo. Sure, it turns the central movements into one vast (in terms of late-Havergalian relativity ;) ) slow movement but I think the differing character of each movement gives it sufficient contrast.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 07, 2013, 01:56:08 PM
It is true I'm just an amateur tinkering, but if Brian had received the number of recordings that his music merits then we'd have more of a choice in our listening. (I think all Brian symphonies should have been professionally recorded several times, and even a symphony like 28 (perhaps not amongst his greatest) should have been recorded at least twice).

In fact I'm surprised that no-one has chipped me for slowing down the third movement of 28 when even MM doesn't give sanction for this.

I'll certainly give the second movement of 28 the 2.30 treatment too and post that.

As for John's point about tempi being matched to venue, this is true, but for studio recordings the venue is implicitly the domestic living room (or nowadays the headphones), and I tend to find that fast recordings don't work so well for these, middling tempi are good and so are slow ones (if well-played).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 07, 2013, 02:05:00 PM
It's funny how my view of the 'slow movement' of No. 12 has changed over the years. The first performance I ever heard was Del Mar's. He is quite fast, so that the slower tempo on the Naxos CD came as something of a shock. For many years I preferred Del Mar, until Malcolm MacDonald said something to me, on Facebook, to the effect that the slow movement couldn't be too slow for him... This changed my perception and it dawned on me that he was right - only when the tempo is slow, can you really feel the creeping menace and the cathartic effect of the climax with its big, arching string melody. I think you, calyptorhynchus, have really demonstrated that the Del Mar works better with a slower funeral march!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 07, 2013, 11:30:09 PM
Bad news everyone, you can only reduce the length of tracks to a certain extent using Audacity. When I tried to produce a 2.30 version the second movement of Brian's No.28 the music basically cracked up, there was nothing intelligible about the result.

Perhaps other sound editing software might be more successful at this task.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on April 07, 2013, 11:58:58 PM
Thank you for your stimulating efforts, absolutely fascinating,

Could you not speed up the already sped up pieces? It will involve a bit of calculation but might be worth a try. Or, perhaps you have already tried that?

Anyway, you have done excellent work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 08, 2013, 02:07:42 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 07, 2013, 11:30:09 PM
Bad news everyone, you can only reduce the length of tracks to a certain extent using Audacity. When I tried to produce a 2.30 version the second movement of Brian's No.28 the music basically cracked up, there was nothing intelligible about the result.

Perhaps other sound editing software might be more successful at this task.
Fairly typical of this particular composer then  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian
Post by: Karl Henning on April 30, 2013, 03:28:39 AM
Ну, как? (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21529.msg714349.html#msg714349)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 30, 2013, 03:38:03 AM
Thanks, Karl! I'll have to get that one!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on April 30, 2013, 03:48:02 AM
Al vostro servizio, my dear!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 30, 2013, 08:49:56 AM
Albion has posted an interesting 'review' of the new Havergal Brian cd at the Art Music Forum,I see! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 30, 2013, 08:52:39 AM
I am listening to samples on the Naxos site as I write this: my first reaction is very positive! I'll have a look at what Albion has to say... Thanks!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 30, 2013, 09:05:06 AM
Albion confirms what I thought after a few short samples:

"My copy of this exciting disc arrived today and, I must admit, I put it into the CD player with some trepidation (remembering the woeful Marco Polo/ Naxos recording of No.2) ...

  ???

I needn't have worried! This is splendidly played and conducted throughout and clearly great care has taken to balance orchestral textures so that important figures and instruments which might be lost in the mêlée (such as the harp) come across with great clarity. Having said that, it's neither a 'dry' nor a 'swimming pool' acoustic and seems just about ideal. With this brilliant and hugely enjoyable rendition of English Suite No.1 (time to finally put the Hull YSO disc to bed), all of Havergal Brian's early extant orchestral music is at last available on disc in professional performances (courtesy of Naxos and Toccata) as are all four surviving English Suites (Dutton, Toccata and now Naxos). Alexander Walker gets wonderful results from his Russian forces who in all probability never heard of Brian before this recording was made but sound totally unfazed by his stringent orchestral demands and elusive style. All in all, a real winner and strongly recommended for those who respond to early or late Havergal Brian (or, like me, who even enjoy both   ;) ).


;D "

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on April 30, 2013, 09:19:29 AM
Hi Johan - is there any further information to be had on the Testament release of The Tigers? I keep checking their website, but there's nothing up as yet.

:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 30, 2013, 09:25:19 AM
Hi John - I'm afraid I know as much as you do...  :( We'll have to be patient a little more, it seems.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 01, 2013, 12:32:38 PM
I just bought (downloaded) the new Naxos Brian CD at ClassicsOnline and listened here and there: ending of the Symphonia Brevis, for instance, and the Carnival movement from the Suite - terrific! Sound is excellent and I can clearly hear that the conductor knows exactly what he is doing. I'll listen to the whole CD later tonight, but I am already very relieved AND very excited!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 01, 2013, 01:45:15 PM
Listened to symphonies 22-24... This CD is an absolute winner. It gives you that real Brian frisson, reminding you why you love the man's music so much. No. 22 gets its best performance ever, I think. The tempi are all well-judged, Alexander Walker knows when to tighten the reins and when to let rip, so the music flows and breathes very naturally. No. 23 is a revelation. To my ears it now clearly points ahead to No. 27 and 28 in the extreme intensity of some its passages. I am very impressed by what has been achieved here by the orchestra. It's quite a ride! No. 24 is excellent, too. Perhaps (minor, very minor niggle) the tempo of the final slow movement could be a tad slower. But who cares - I was moved. It all comes together wonderfully, you can hear the unity of this trilogy for the first time.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2013, 04:04:57 AM
Thanks for that, most interesting, Johan.

So the English Suite is actually longer than any of the actual symphonies on that CD? Curious!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2013, 04:06:51 AM
Actually . . . actual . . . haven't finished my first mug of tea this morning, can you tell? . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2013, 04:08:46 AM
Yes...  ;) Still, one eagle eye spotted the remarkable fact that the Suite is longer than any of the symphonies. So there is hope for you after all.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2013, 04:20:58 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2013, 04:04:57 AM
Thanks for that, most interesting, Johan.

So the English Suite is actually longer than any of the actual symphonies on that CD? Curious!


22 -  9:22
23 - 13:44
24 - 16:29

English Suite #1 (6 movements) - 25:51


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2013, 04:23:20 AM
Hi, Sarge! What do you think of the new CD?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2013, 04:24:52 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2013, 04:23:20 AM
Hi, Sarge! What do you think of the new CD?

It's a noisy SOB, isn't it?  :D ;)


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2013, 04:25:41 AM
That's one, very valid, way of looking at it!  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2013, 04:28:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2013, 04:20:58 AM
22 -  9:22
23 - 13:44
24 - 16:19

English Suite #1 (6 movements) - 25:51

Thanks, Sarge.

Indeed, the English Suite proves to be longer than the 22nd & 23rd symphonies together . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2013, 04:30:14 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2013, 04:25:41 AM
That's one, very valid, way of looking at it!  ;D

Seriously, I found the recording a bit harsh when I listened to 22. I moved on to the English Suite which was far easier on my ears. A truly lovely work, and a great performance. I wasn't feeling well, though, when I tried to listen to the symphonies; sinus and ear infection. So I'm sure (I'm hoping anyway) it was my condition and not the sonics fault.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2013, 04:34:07 AM
I hope you'll be better soon, Sarge. I do think, though, that the harshness is there in the work. No. 23 is even more uncompromising, as the middle, 'battle' part of the trilogy...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2013, 04:35:54 AM
Sinus and ear infection is certainly not one's ideal listening conditions! : )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2013, 04:37:02 AM
It simply shows to what lengths the true Brianite will go...  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on May 02, 2013, 04:42:23 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2013, 04:24:52 AM
It's a noisy SOB, isn't it?  :D ;)
Sarge
Perfect! I have a coworker who doesn't know when to shut up and I'm always looking for loud music to play over my headphones so I don't have to hear him.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2013, 04:43:56 AM
You could always play the final minutes of the 'Judex' on a loop.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 02, 2013, 04:46:33 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 02, 2013, 04:42:23 AM
Perfect! I have a coworker who doesn't know when to shut up and I'm always looking for loud music to play over my headphones so I don't have to hear him.  :)
Das Siegeslied! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2013, 04:49:54 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 02, 2013, 04:46:33 AM
Das Siegeslied! ;D

That would certainly do the trick...but would cause permanent ear damage too  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2013, 04:53:05 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2013, 04:49:54 AM
That would certainly do the trick...but would cause permanent ear damage too  ;D

Sarge

With friends like that . . . .

; )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Brian on May 02, 2013, 05:01:55 AM
He might have found a way around it - we'll find out today. Last time, I was blasting Martinu (the excellent new Toccata CD - gotta post about that) and jumped about a foot out of my chair when I realized he was standing just over my left shoulder chattering away about something or other and watching me work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Fafner on May 02, 2013, 05:03:54 AM
Listening to the new Naxos release now. I have not listened to much of anything by Havergal Brian. This is a nice introduction (although I have to twist my mind around the fact that a symphony has just two movements totalling under 10 minutes.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 02, 2013, 05:05:49 AM
Quote from: Fafner on May 02, 2013, 05:03:54 AM
Listening to the new Naxos release now. I have not listened to much of anything by Havergal Brian. This is a nice introduction (although I have to twist my mind around the fact that a symphony has just two movements totalling under 10 minutes.)

Yes, Symphonia brevis, indeed  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2013, 05:07:19 AM
I applaud you, Fafner, for listening to Brian at his most concise and contrapuntal!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2013, 05:08:19 AM
Quote from: Brian on May 02, 2013, 05:01:55 AM
He might have found a way around it - we'll find out today. Last time, I was blasting Martinu (the excellent new Toccata CD - gotta post about that) and jumped about a foot out of my chair when I realized he was standing just over my left shoulder chattering away about something or other and watching me work.


That's a stalker, not a co-worker.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 02, 2013, 08:23:11 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2013, 05:08:19 AM

That's a stalker, not a co-worker.
;D Well,at least he won't need those binoculars,now!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 02, 2013, 02:37:54 PM
My 22-24 disk didn't arrive today. Will have to wait till next week.

:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2013, 03:22:58 PM
You have my sympathy.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on May 02, 2013, 08:24:11 PM
Mine's on its way. Can I have some sympathy too?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 03, 2013, 04:38:36 AM
I have plenty to spare, Steve.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 03, 2013, 05:53:08 AM
Some debate about the Klassic Haus 'releases' at the Art Music Forum. Your name has been invoked,Johan;as author of the 'booklet' notes. You might like to take a look?

As you will have noticed! ;D I've been a bit quiet about the new Naxos release!. That's because,despite all the enthusiasm,and the promising sounding samples I have listened to;I'm not really sure that these are exactly in my list of Brian symphonies I like. I must admit,while I find them very intriguing,I Do find their sound world very harsh. And,aside from the sound quality,are the performances really that much of an improvement on some of those 'classic' uploads? Of course,I'll get the First English Suite,but,I must admit,unlike the last two Dutton cds,I'm in two minds about this!! :-\
No's 22-29,are still a bit of a 'dark horse' to me! Yet,I enjoy No's 30 & 31,on the Dutton & EMI cds. They seem more approachable,somehow.

Hm?!!! ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 03, 2013, 07:45:08 AM
I'll probably succumb to temptation,of course,before long! ;D The sound quality of one or two of the uploads of these particular symphonies,at the AMF,is very poor (I forget which). I'll have another listen through No's 22-24,soon. Copland conducting Copland (Everest) at the moment!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 03, 2013, 03:45:47 PM
Hi, cilgwyn! I was out. I have posted a comment at the Art Forum... As for 22-24, yes, they are rather harsh, but - there are some beautiful lyrical episodes, too. And the closing minutes of 24 are wonderful...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 03, 2013, 04:34:04 PM
I've just read you're post,there. I was a bit relieved actually. I was worried I might have put my foot in it,by trying to gauge the stance of the HB towards these recordings. I got the feeling,while they didn't condone,or necessarily agree with it, it,they did realise that,albeit,in the wrong kind of way,Aries was actually doing what they would have liked to have been doing,ie increasing awareness of Brian's music by putting it out on Lp. Of course,it's not the right way of going about things;but in a way,Aries DID enhance awareness of Brian's music. Although,judging by some of the comments I've read,over the years,the transfers could have been better. (Tut! Tut,you Aries engineers,wherever you are! ;D) Incidentally,I liked your comparison of the BBC with Fafner. (Not being particularly into Wagner,I immeadiately got a mental image of Smaug,of Hobbit fame,in I think,Tolkein's own illustration for the book?) The BBC are a bit like that;although,maybe,more like a knackered out old donkey,these days! :(

I will bear your words about Symphonies 22-24 in mind. I think temptation will overcome my doubts soon;and,let's face it,the reflective moments in Brian's more vociferous music,are always worth hearing (even if you're not keen on the noisy bits) Also,not wanting to appear grateful,one or two of those uploads,at the AMF, are rather poor,and that obviously isn't enhacing my appreciation! Finally,as a 'Brianite',I can't help feeling it's my,erm,duty to buy it,anyway! (And the painting on the front is nice! ;D)

As Albion would say,"Go on,buy it,you know you want it!" ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2013, 04:46:57 AM
I am cross-posting a response I wrote on the Art-Music Forum to problems two people have with Brian's late music (one of whom is our own Dundonnell/Colin). They have trouble connecting with Brian's terse and abrupt style, and so cannot get into the music emotionally. Calyptorhynchus also offered his view, mentioning Nielsen's idea of the 'current' which has to be present in all music if it is to be alive. He thinks Brian certainly 'passes the grade' in that respect, also in the later symphonies. Here is my reaction:


I understand Colin's and Kyjo's problems, but I also know exactly what calyptorhynchus is saying.

First, let's be clear - what music comprises 'late Brian'? The final 27 symphonies were all written after the age of 72! I always divide Brian's symphonic canon into four periods: 1-5, 6-12, 13-17, 18-32. Between symphonies 17 and 18 something happens to Brian and his style. He was 85 at the time. The music 'cools down', becomes more abstract, more contrapuntal. 'Romantic' passages that touch the heart remain, but sometimes they can be like flowers bursting through concrete...

I think that when Colin speaks about 'late Brian', he means this Brian, the Brian of symphonies 18-32. If that is so, I think that he is right that especially No. 23 is among the most abrasive and least 'appealing' of Brian's symphonies, and I don't 'like' it either, but it is an experience, and for me a compelling one. Calyptorhynchus talks about the 'current', and Brian certainly has that in spades. The music may not be beautiful, but it is 'there', like a very hard and very incontestable fact, and it's up to us to do something with it or not.

Symphonies 22-24 are a trilogy. No. 22 sets out the problem. It is a powerful work, very urgent, and I do think that Brian leaves enough breathing space. So, for all its brevity, No. 22 doesn't seem too short. No. 23 certainly does. Why? Harold Truscott once said that Brian sometimes could err on the side of terseness, and he mentions No. 23... Still, if we consider the symphony the middle part of a triptych, and one of a very warlike and uncomfortable nature, then the work does make sense. We're really in the 'mêlée', in the fray. We cannot desert, the battle is all around us. It's all sound and fury. But even here Brian intersperses moments of calm. But, I agree, they are not enough to let us forget that we're in the middle of something very harsh and unrelenting. And that is the whole point. In the final part of the trilogy, No. 24, the worst is over, so much so, that Brian can end the whole journey with a spacious and tranquil Adagio (which Alexander Walker should have taken slower, in my opinion).

Another thing about 'late Brian' - there are several symphonies or individual movements that are approachable and do 'breathe'. I really suggest those still struggling to listen to (again, if needs be) - the slow movements of Nos. 18 and 19, the whole of Symphonies 20, 27, 31. In a less overtly Romantic way than earlier symphonies, these certainly, in my opinion, can move you and leave you enough time to register every 'episode'.

One final remark: I know a Dutch writer and poet, Sybren Polet. He is now almost 90. He says he isn't able to write novels anymore because these take too long, demand a mental endurance he cannot muster anymore. So what does he write? Very elliptical and intellectually agile poetry... I think that in late Brian we have the privilege of entering the mind of a very old man. That the world he creates is more 'skeletal' than we should like is then only to be expected.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 05, 2013, 03:01:00 PM
I'd agree with what Johan says, except not be quite so defensive. No.23 is very compressed and savage, but at the same time it has the emergence of that wonderful heroic theme near the end that tells you everything is going to be OK and No.24 is just round the corner. This theme, although it emerges from a turbulent texture has been so prepared for already that it emerges as a natural product of the symphony, not just a "Heoric Theme' tacked on to the end.

Also, at the same time that Brian was writing Nos 22-24 the contemporary music that was being put forward by the 3rd Programme and other luminaries was serialism and/or avant garde music, and compared to that Brian, even at his most savage and compressed, is a picnic in the park.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2013, 03:14:53 PM
Your final point is spot-on. Still, one of the reasons Brian can be so difficult to 'get' is that he is both uncompromisingly modern in his structures and discourse, whilst retaining tonality. This makes him neither an avant-gardist nor a traditionalist, but something in between.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 06, 2013, 01:49:32 AM
I just posted this on the Art Music forum:
The proposed streaming service from the HBS website will, I think, be using MP3 files at 128 kbps. These will sound terrible if saved and then put onto a CD. Klassic Haus offers flacs or MP3s at 320 kbps quality and they sound great. This is a labour of love by Curt Timmons. He's bought a new lease of life to some historic materials. Is it illegal? I don't know anything about US copyright laws but his transfers are potentially illegal restorations of illegal bootleg LPs so it's all very tortuous. I doubt if Curt's swimming pool and private jet are up to much due to his Brian activities. Mine are rubbish!! All I can urge people to do is download some of them and see what they think. I also get free access to these Aries titles - by way of a fee for my input - in the same way that Johan does. The HBS people have to distance themselves from this activity and rightly so but that's another issue. Having said that, Curt also did a fine job in restoring the historic Brian 10 broadcast (once I had pitch corrected it) which is offered as a stream via the HBS website. What did he charge for his time? Nothing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2013, 01:58:19 AM
"All of the recordings will be streamable from dedicated and passworded Recordings Library pages in the members' area of the website. The music will be streamed as 192kbps-encoded mp3 files; this is the same bitrate used by the BBC in their live radio iPlayer, and is targeted at a rate that provides good listening quality with good streamability from a reasonable broadband internet connection." (from the latest Newsletter, 225)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 06, 2013, 02:36:05 AM
Thanks Johan. Better quality than I thought but not good enough for CD really. I wonder what the source materials will be vs the KH stuff? Any idea?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2013, 02:46:41 AM
There is a whole exposé in the Newsletter, pages 5-7...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2013, 03:18:27 AM
On Saturday I wrote the liner notes for this Havergal Brian CD by Klassic Haus, which completes the series of restored recordings of historic radio performances. It was issued yesterday.



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hemmesjo on May 06, 2013, 07:42:49 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2013, 03:18:27 AM
On Saturday I wrote the liner notes for this Havergal Brian CD by Klassic Haus, which completes the series of restored recordings of historic radio performances. It was issued yesterday.

Johan,

The HBS site lists several more Aries recordings.  Hadley conducting 20 & 26; Pope conducting 13, 15 & 17; Fredman conducting 26; and Canarina conducting 25 which shows being originally coupled with 5.  Were these not radio performances?

Dan
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2013, 08:14:10 AM
Hi, Dan! Yes, they were. I may have been overly hasty when I said 'which completes the series of restored recordings of historic radio performances'. The point is that at the moment those remaining Aries LPs are hard to come by, and apart from that, they have to be in a very good condition to enable Klassic Haus to enhance the quality of the recording. But if they turn up, on eBay for instance, I might well have to write some new liner notes...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on May 06, 2013, 01:56:32 PM
Quote from: hemmesjo on May 06, 2013, 07:42:49 AMCanarina conducting 25 which shows being originally coupled with 5.

This was indeed Aries LP 1629. Symphony No.5 has already been issued by KH (from a programme viewpoint very sensibly coupled with No.4) but what has happened to No.25?

???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2013, 02:04:20 PM
If I remember correctly, the Symphony No. 25 side of the LP was of such bad quality, even Curt Timmons couldn't salvage it. (Back me up on this, John Whitmore!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 07, 2013, 10:14:07 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2013, 02:04:20 PM
If I remember correctly, the Symphony No. 25 side of the LP was of such bad quality, even Curt Timmons couldn't salvage it. (Back me up on this, John Whitmore!)
Spot on. The LP was in a bad state. Couldn't make anything of it. Another copy anyone????
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 08, 2013, 07:01:51 PM
Ok, I've been listening to the new Symphonies 22-24 disc and I'm very pleased with it.

I think it's very well played and I haven't noticed a single thing that I'd like to be different about the interpretation. Both Symphonies 22 and 23 are of a similar quality to the recordings we have had before, but 24, which we can now hear properly for the first time, is a revelation, and it could become one of my favourite Brians.

Also enjoyed the English Suite 1. This I think is earliest orchestral Brian we have, and already shows his sly humour. There is hardly a bar in the piece that doesn't have some sort of amusing or quirky feature.

Finally just a thought, people have been talking about how easy, or not, it is to appreciate these symphonies, because of their elliptical qualities and ferocity (particularly 22 and 23). When I was listening to these I had a strange feeling that these pieces reminded me of some older music, and after a while I realised it was the large scale fugues for organ by Bach, eg the 'Dorian' Toccata and Fugue (perhaps it's the key, D minor). In these pieces by Bach I have always heard the kind of grim existential expression that we have in the Brian 22 and 23, only with an older musical language. (I remember reading that Bach at one point was censured for stirring the emotions of churchgoers with his organ playing!). I'm sure these pieces were in the back of Brian's mind when he was composing 22 and 23 too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2013, 02:53:23 AM
Thanks, calyptorhynchus. Well, Bach was a major influence on Brian, and I agree that the latter's sublime organ works can be just as intellectually (and sonically) overwhelming... As for the CD, you know I am very positive about it, too. I do think, though, that the closing Adagio of No. 24 could have been taken at a slower pace. But that's a minor niggle.


Some news just in - I have it on good authority that a DVD of the Brisbane Gothic could be issued in the near future. Let's hope it'll come to fruition! It would be an excellent companion to the Gothic documentary, which will be commercially available soon, too.


P.S. Re that tempo: it's the closing passage of 24, that procession , that is too quick for me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 09, 2013, 07:45:26 PM
No, I've listened to 24 several times and I don't feel that the tempo of the final section is too fast. It seems consistent with the pace of the rest of the symphony IMHO
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on May 09, 2013, 10:29:26 PM
I've listened to the new disc several times now and it makes such a difference hearing the music in good sound in good performances. I had a frisson on hearing the 22nd which doesn't happen much lately. I agree with calyptorhynchus about the difficulty of the late symphonies and their relation to Bach. it has always seemed to me that Brian was a bridge between the German tradition and the the Stravinskian view of what music can be, I expect that that's just me though.
I've found with Brian, that if you put the effort in you get the rewards. Music that is handed to one on a plate doesn't last.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 11, 2013, 06:34:49 PM
Today I took up my headphones again to listen 22-24, but instead I found myself listening to Mahler's 9th.

I couldn't work out why, but then I realised that Brian's 3 symphonies are centred around D, with 24 being described as in D major, but ending in D flat. Mahler's 9th is a symphony centred on D minor which also ends in D flat.

Uncanny, eh?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on May 11, 2013, 11:06:02 PM
Here's a small review from yesterday's Times by Richard Morrison.

Turbulent, untidy, unclassifiable yet gripping. Brian's 32 symphonies mostly written after he was over 70, are still rare beasts on record or in the concert hall. Three cheers, then, to (of all people) the New Russian State Symphony orchestra under Alexander walker for supplying feisty performances of the English maverick's Symphonies 22-24- a dark dissonant triptych from the 1960s. For light relief the is also the English Suite No1, composed 50 years earlier and full of whimsical quotations.

I was surprised to see this in the Times, times are a-changing.

The 24th on re-listening is a revelation to me, it's wonderful.

No Mahler temptation from this quarter.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2013, 12:47:20 AM
The following review appeared last week. It is by Andrew Clements... For the record:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/may/03/brian-symphonies-english-suite-review (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/may/03/brian-symphonies-english-suite-review)


Compared to AC's rubbish, the Times review is a miracle. Re the D minor/D flat fact in Brian and Mahler - what connects triptych and symphony is that they travel from turmoil to tranquility, the tranquility of acceptance. Perhaps that's reflected in that tonal dip...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 12, 2013, 02:17:35 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 11, 2013, 06:34:49 PM
Today I took up my headphones again to listen 22-24, but instead I found myself listening to Mahler's 9th.

I couldn't work out why, but then I realised that Brian's 3 symphonies are centred around D, with 24 being described as in D major, but ending in D flat. Mahler's 9th is a symphony centred on D minor which also ends in D flat.

Uncanny, eh?
Uncanny but only if you have perfect pitch. Any old key will usually do for the vast majority  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 12, 2013, 02:20:18 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2013, 12:47:20 AM
The following review appeared last week. It is by Andrew Clements... For the record:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/may/03/brian-symphonies-english-suite-review (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/may/03/brian-symphonies-english-suite-review)


Compared to AC's rubbish, the Times review is a miracle. Re the D minor/D flat fact in Brian and Mahler - what connects triptych and symphony is that they travel from turmoil to tranquility, the tranquility of acceptance. Perhaps that's reflected in that tonal dip...
The BBC Music Mag gave a right royal roasting to the recent Fiddle Concerto CD as well. Basically good playing wasted on poor music. Ah, well.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 12, 2013, 02:30:55 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2013, 12:47:20 AM
The following review appeared last week. It is by Andrew Clements... For the record:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/may/03/brian-symphonies-english-suite-review (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/may/03/brian-symphonies-english-suite-review)


Compared to AC's rubbish, the Times review is a miracle. Re the D minor/D flat fact in Brian and Mahler - what connects triptych and symphony is that they travel from turmoil to tranquility, the tranquility of acceptance. Perhaps that's reflected in that tonal dip...
Hi Johan, I just had a look at the Andrew Clements review. Please don't send out a lynch mob because, as you know. I do have a wee bit of empathy with Brian, but the comments about saturated textures and semi formed sketches ring true when I listen to the music. Especially the textural weaknesses. Quote Bob Simpson: "As rough as a bear's backside". Sorry. Will you still converse with me elecronically or have I shot myself in the foot? Good news about the new Heritage double CD release by the way. I look forward to it. Honestly. Anyway, must dash. Leicester v Watford on the telly soon.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2013, 03:33:42 AM
Good luck with the match, and rest assured - you won't burn for your heresy. Joking aside, I simply don't have any trouble with Brian's polyphony, the density, the roughness of it. I simply find it exhilarating. And 'semi-formed'? No, allusive, quick, elliptical. But we know where we stand on the matter. I'm fine with that.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 12, 2013, 07:49:21 AM
Judging by all the various posts I've read here & at the AMF;these late symphonies are,from what I can make out,controversial,even amongst those who profess to like,or even admire,Brian. I must admit I'm not so sure about No's 20,plus;though No21 is an exception. I listened to the LSSO performance again recently,and found some of it quite thrilling. What an orchestra!! ;D I also enjoy No's 30 & 31,in the Dutton & emi recordings,but No's 20 & 22-29,are tough little nuts!
My favourites are,without doubt,No's 1-3,5-17;and I'm going to have to have another crack at 18 & 19,again;but I quite like them.
No's 10-17 are particularly engrossing. There is so much variety of expression there,and some very haunting moments of repose! (What went wrong?!!!)
And why no recording plans for the Fourteenth? For goodness sake,it's one of his best!

I think I'll hold off on the new Naxos for a little while. Having just forked out on several cds of piano music by Bax,Ireland & Scott (much better than his orchestral output,with the notable exception of his First Piano Concerto,Sym 3 & Neptune!) I need to concentrate my resources on paying some bills! :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2013, 07:52:54 AM
Give Symphonies 27-29 another chance, cilgwyn. They are just as approachable as 30 and 31... No. 27, especially, is simply beautiful, in the same way as No. 31 is.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 12, 2013, 08:06:13 AM
I certainly will! The Stokowski is supposed to be a bit 'dodgy' though,isn't it?!

Quote from John: "Good news about the new Heritage double CD release by the way"!!!!!!! ??? ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2013, 08:23:27 AM
'Dodgy', yes, but the music survives it...


The Heritage double CD refers to the re-release of the two LSSO LPs (10 & 21, and Psalm 23, Symphony 22 and English Suite No. 5), using the master tapes...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 12, 2013, 08:24:20 AM
Incidentally,I just had a look at the Cameo Classics website & I see they have reissued their Hull Youth SO recordings of Early Brian with a 'snazzy' new sleeve design (no order queues there,I suppose?!).....AND the HYSO recordings of Bantock's Pagan & Hebridean Symphonies,Witch of Atlas & Sapphic Poem (didn't know they recorded that). And the real suprise,in a way. Their recording of Holbrooke's Piano Concerto No1 'The Song of Gwyn ap Nudd' which is supposed to have flattened the entire enterprise!!! Hm?!! The thought of those wierdly off key strings scraping through Bantock's gorgeously,sumptuous music is hideously intriguing..........& just how bad was the Holbrooke? Was the piano out of tune,too? One of those old school jobs,perhaps;with keys missing?! :( Anyway,I think I'll hang onto my pennies!! :o ;D Rather like the cover painting (on the Bantock) though!

Nice for the Hull Youth musician's though. Fair play to them. I just wish they'd been as good as the LSSO!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2013, 08:31:27 AM
I'm still glad the HYSO did those early Brians! But English Suite No. 1 on the new Naxox CD is really something else... (Look at your PM Inbox, cilgwyn!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 12, 2013, 08:33:59 AM
Regarding the Heritage 2 cd release of the LSSO Brian recordings.That's fantastic news! I'll have to order that,baliffs,or not!! :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 12, 2013, 08:59:07 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2013, 08:31:27 AM
I'm still glad the HYSO did those early Brians! But English Suite No. 1 on the new Naxox CD is really something else... (Look at your PM Inbox, cilgwyn!)
And I'm glad the Hull Youth SO recordings are being reissued. It's easy to knock them know,and still is I suppose,but their recordings were the only ones at the time. They were a window on unknown Brian. Frustrating,yes....but strange as it may seem now;they were once rather exciting. (I still prefer their performances of 'In Memoriam' & 'Festal Dance' to the professionally performed (no scrapey strings) but arid sounding Marco Polo recordings).
Not sure about the value of their Bantock,though. Amazing that anyone would even contemplate releasing stuff like that,back then;but I'm just not sure who'd want to hear it now?! Nice for ex members of the HYSO,though,to see their performances on cd!

I have now ordered a copy of the Naxos Brian cd from Naxos Direct. I think I have ordered from them before. The cover painting is by John Martin,I believe;a painter I like. Got to buy it,now! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2013, 09:10:27 AM
John Martin, correct. Never a painter of placid landscapes, was John Martin.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 12, 2013, 09:16:15 AM
Hopefull,it'll arrive quickly. If I find some of Brian's writing too strenuous,I can always listen to one of those John Ireland piano cds in between! ;D

Seriously,some of the Brian uploads here & at the AMF have been excellent;but one or two of the brian recordings in the 22 plus range have been unusually poor. I forget which ones. I can usually listen through virtually anything,but these later Brian symphonies do need the benefit of digital sound quality.

Indeed! They called him 'Mad Martin',didn't they! Apocalyptic,to say the least.'The Great Day of His Wrath' is a particularly famous one. Pretty mind boggling,really! Like the Gothic!! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 12, 2013, 10:22:08 AM
I thought I would post something about this new Heritage reissue. Around 4 years ago I tried to locate the masters of two LSSO recordings - the 1967 Pye LP of Tippett's Suite in D coupled with Mathias, Arnold and Ridout (still my favourite LSSO record) and the CBS Brian from 1974.  All my leads became dead ends so I packed it in. I then came across Klassic Haus and enquired about the availability of some of their titles as downloads. Curt Timmons kindly arranged for this to happen and I bought a couple of his titles.  We then exchanged emails and I sent him a small section of Brian 10 to see what he thought. He enjoyed the music, admitted a liking for Brian and was somewhat surprised that the performance was by children. My next step was to make good vinyl transfers of the two LSSO Brian LPs. I hated the official scrawny  sounding Unicorn CD release and the toppy CBS LP was always a travesty of what the orchestra actually sounded like. My transfers were repaired by Curt and since this time I have worked on around 30 titles with him, including 10 LSSO titles, all of which are pretty astonishing restorations. Out of the blue around 6 months ago I got an email from Sony who had found the CBS master tapes in their European archives. They offered to sell me a copy but the price was too high. I was relieved to find out that the tapes still existed and passed the information to Martyn Becker at the HBS suggesting that maybe they could chip in to buy the masters. Martyn then picked it up as a potential project. Regis have released many Unicorn recordings from the 1970s and their sister label, Heritage, specialises in relatively obscure repertoire. The manager of Heritage saw the possibility of a Unicorn/Sony CD twofer release and that's what they plan to do. I've been in touch with Martyn to see if he can influence the transfer engineer (EMI trained) to produce a sound close to the Klassic Haus restorations but without the residual vinyl background noise and end of side distortion. If they can achieve this we will have something special. I was asked to supply some notes for the reissue and these were done last week. I am hopeful!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2013, 10:46:21 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 12, 2013, 10:22:08 AMThe manager of Heritage saw the possibility of a Unicorn/Sony CD twofer release and that's what they plan to do. I've been in touch with Martyn to see if he can influence the transfer engineer (EMI trained) to produce a sound close to the Klassic Haus restorations but without the residual vinyl background noise and end of side distortion. If they can achieve this we will have something special.


Yes, indeed!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 12, 2013, 01:56:04 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 12, 2013, 08:24:20 AM
Incidentally,I just had a look at the Cameo Classics website & I see they have reissued their Hull Youth SO recordings of Early Brian with a 'snazzy' new sleeve design (no order queues there,I suppose?!).....AND the HYSO recordings of Bantock's Pagan & Hebridean Symphonies,Witch of Atlas & Sapphic Poem (didn't know they recorded that). And the real suprise,in a way. Their recording of Holbrooke's Piano Concerto No1 'The Song of Gwyn ap Nudd' which is supposed to have flattened the entire enterprise!!! Hm?!! The thought of those wierdly off key strings scraping through Bantock's gorgeously,sumptuous music is hideously intriguing..........& just how bad was the Holbrooke? Was the piano out of tune,too? One of those old school jobs,perhaps;with keys missing?! :( Anyway,I think I'll hang onto my pennies!! :o ;D Rather like the cover painting (on the Bantock) though!

Nice for the Hull Youth musician's though. Fair play to them. I just wish they'd been as good as the LSSO!
So why isn't the Cameo LSSO recording being reissued then? That's a cracker (Douglas Young: Hunting of the Snark).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 12, 2013, 03:37:32 PM
1. John W "Uncanny but only if you have perfect pitch. Any old key will usually do for the vast majority." But the uncanny thing is I don't have perfect pitch, I have almost no sense of pitch. What was uncanny was that my subconscious told me to listen to Mahler's 9th, a symphony which shares the tonal scheme of Brian's 24th, which I didn't realise until I refreshed my memory by reading the liner notes. (in fact, just to prove I don't,when I first posted I had the idea that the whole triptych was based around D minor, in fact 22 is in around F minor, 23, C major/minor and only 24 D minor.)

2. Re Brian's rough polyphony, I find it's what makes his music vital and exhilarating, it makes it true to life in an Ivesian sense, in that every passage has elements and ideas that pull different ways.

3. Cilgwyn, I'm one of those who prefers the late Brian. I like the early orchestral pieces and the Gothic and the early symphonies (though I rarely listen to symphonies 2-5), but I find myself mostly listening to the symphonies 6 onwards. I find they get better and better (noting that after about 17 they lack a certain elemental quality). And Brian deliberately composes different types of symphony (ie set-piece classical form 21, classical 3 movement 18, 19, 20, 25 &c, this triptych, the less well defined final triptych of 30-32, and genuinely unclassifiable pieces like 26 and 28).

4. Re slow tempi in the final section of 24. I went back to the old radio recording of 24 and I don't like the slower tempi there because there are some chromatic ascending phrases that sound rather cloying when played at that tempo, but on the new recording (slightly faster), don't sound cloying.

5. Good news about the Heritage double issue of the LSSO recordings. Great work John. I will just add here that these recordings do contain the one Brian work I really can't stand, the Psalm 23. I like the Gothic and Symphony 4, but I'm glad Brian didn't write any more formal choral works!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 12, 2013, 04:08:00 PM
Nice post, calyptorhynchus. I concur with most of your points. The 'elemental' quality that seems to disappear after Symphony No. 17 - I want to add that you could also call it a certain mythical quality. But for me there are still moments of it in late Brian, in the apocalyptic outbursts in Symphonies 27, 30 and 31, for example. Re 24's closing section: I don't find those string phrases 'cloying' but yearning, and the slower ascent towards the end make the dissonances much more wrenching. As for Psalm 23, it's a bit stiff, but a few inspired passages are certainly there
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 12, 2013, 11:05:18 PM
I found this in my collection of old reviews:
Hull Bantock Hebridean Symphony:
"It's impossible to make extravagant claims for this orchestra but the enterprise is laudatory and might conceivably stimulate some professional re-awakening in this composer. The engineers have wisely given us an atmospheric recording,emphasising Bantock's great wash of sound rather than highlighting the individual orchestral solos". I haven't heard the record. I have the Hyperion RPO Bantock CDs and they are excellent. Avoid the Naxos Hebridean Symphony, it's a shocker. Musically a lot of this stuff is luxuriant and hollow but some of it is wonderful. Bantock knew how to write for an orchestra, of that there is little doubt.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 14, 2013, 09:03:48 AM
Fantastic!!!
The Naxos cd came today. Right from the very beginning,it was pretty obvious that there is NO comparison whatsoever here,with those awful,drab,sterile,listless Marco Polo recordings! This pulled me in right from the start.with fantastic playing & excellent sound. Anyone who has been put off these later symphonies by files downloaded from here & the AMF MUST hear the performances on this cd! Of course,I don't mean to be rude;like anyone else I am very grateful for those downloads;but there is no doubt in my mind that these particular symphonies NEED to be heard in state of the art sound. And these performances have an urgency & momentum to them which leaves some of those earlier performances standing. Oh,and yes Johan;now you get to really hear & enjoy the moments of stillness & lyricism. Some truly fascinating orchestration,quite beautiful at times. No wonder you like these!
And then there's the English suite. I need to play it again,but,to pick out just one example  of the delights here;isn't 'Interlude' wonderful?! What a lovely piece of music. And 'Carnival'! Wow! So full of ideas,and the pre-echoes of Stravinsky's Petrushka! I could go on & on.......but I better not. I need another listen before posting more,anyway;but please Alexander Walker,if your conducting of HB is this good,can we have some more?!! (Look out Martyn Brabbins,you've got competition!)
Franz Schmidt's sublime third symphony on,now. A nice Brian connection,there. (What's wrong with it? Why don't orchestras,the world over, want to play it?!! Another story there!)

Thanks for the HYSO Bantock review,John. Nice to see the reviewer was kind to them,and let's face it;how could anyone be worse than that Marco Polo 'Hebridean'. That was my first hearing of the piece,and while I normally like to try & sound grateful;unlike their Holbrooke,which was 'dodgy',but committed;that Bantock recording was just,downright c***! For one thing,the brass didn't come out. Those clansmen! Did they have an off day? They certainly wouldn't have warded off any invaders with those bazooka's!! When I got the Handley performance I couldn't believe my ears. They blazed out! It was a different work. Thank goodness enthusiasts like me have been reared on dodgy off air recordings. Some people might be put off!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 14, 2013, 09:08:06 AM
Nice to see your Welsh roots in that hwyl-filled explosion, cilgwyn!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 14, 2013, 11:23:23 AM
Not quite sure what to make of that  ??? ;D ;D .....but just imagine if the Marco Polo recordings had been that good?! (And there I was thinking I wouldn't like it!) In short ;D one of the best Brian recordings to have come my way.

Incidentally,calyptorhyncus;I'm with you on the later symphonies. I just wasn't so sure about some of the ones in between 20 (bar 21) & 29. I think this new cd may have finally convinced me.
The more expansive,earlier symphonies may be more immeadiately appealing;but it's the cryptic nature of these later ones that makes them even more intriguing. In some ways they are a bit like a box of chocolates,with the hard centre on the outside! Well worth the effort & much to savour inside. Although,there's no caramel,or coffee creme,so that analogy ends there,I'm afraid! Luckily,I haven't got a sweet tooth,and Brian's symphonies last longer,anyway!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 14, 2013, 11:26:27 AM
I also find this CD among the best of the new Brian recordings. And - as, I think, Dundonnell remarked - I sincerely hope Alexander Walker is allowed to make a few more!


Wait a sec - you said that, too, cilgwyn!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 14, 2013, 01:34:00 PM
In so many words! ;D I'm even starting to think that this could be the cd to convince 'non believers' of the virtues of Brian's (post No10) later symphonies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 14, 2013, 01:55:32 PM
Well, this CD contains the richest sampling so far of HB's later symphonies and it makes a persuasive case (though not for everyone, of course). I find No. 23 a very exciting work. It has certainly risen in my estimation.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 15, 2013, 02:44:05 PM
Johan was quite right about the lyricism & moments of repose in these symphonies (well,words to that effect). Symphony No23 has some quite gorgeous,magical textures beginning at approximately 2: 33 into the first movement. The orchestration here is quite stunning;harking back to some of the most beautifully,lyrical passages in,some of the earlier symphonies,such as No's 13,14,and even the 'Sinfonia Tragica'! This is the kind of orchestration that keeps bringing us 'Brianites' back! ;D
And then the martial rhythms return,and that moment of enchantment is over.
Sometimes with Brian it's almost as if there are two whole things going on. Not in an Ivesian sense,but as if a 'curtain' is suddenly pulled back and you see,or rather,hear a glimpse of something going on underneath. Unlike Holbrooke or Scott,Brian was not angry or bitter about his years of neglect. He was philosophical,he didn't need the adulation of critics,at least not at that stage in his life. He enjoyed life,and made the most of it,feeling he had achieved everything he had set out to do,ie compose music! I feel that underneath all the surface tensions,these moments of reflection and lyricism are are,almost like,a glimpse of Brian the man,as opposed to Brian the composer. No pacing up & down writing angry letters like Holbrooke,or tearing his hair out at the musical establisment. Just a nice,comfy armchair,in the evening,and a bit music,or tv,maybe? (By the way,if had one;I wonder what he watched?!!).

Anyway,'theories',and speculations,aside;the passage I have singled out above strikes me as having the elemental quality calyptorhyncus refers to in his earlier post. Although,having said that,there is always something rather elemental about Brian's music at it's best. There's nothing like Tapiola in his output,or any of the Finnish masters hymns to nature;but like a storm,or the earth moving in a quake,it's an unstoppable,unquenchable force. Which is one of the reasons why those moments of reflection and lyricism,when they occur,are so spellbinding!


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 15, 2013, 02:50:35 PM
Nice post, cilgwyn! I have been listening a lot to 'that' CD, too, today. I have to write a review for the upcoming Newsletter of the HBS, so that gives an extra urgency... I have always felt that the 'mask drops off', as it were, in those lyrical passages. I don't see HB sitting in a comfy chair, but I feel that I am looking into his soul. Especially those solos, mostly for violin, that we encounter time and again in his symphonies, are things I really treasure in Brian's music. The bluster is gone, the aggression is far away, and we are with him in silence.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 15, 2013, 04:10:52 PM
I should point out,the comfy chair I was referring to was an attempt at an analogy with the inner peace of the older Brian,as opposed to Scott & Holbrooke,who seemed to have spent their final years,raging at the establishment for not recognising the value of their music. Brian didn't need critical adulation,or 'success' in the material sense;although early on,I'm sure he would have appreciated a little more than he got. In that respect,I didn't intend the imagery to be taken literally. I just feel that this is a man who was at peace with himself,unlike those previously mentioned. I certainly don't see  Brian sitting in a sofa when I'm listening to the music. I just feel his inner peace! And I can imagine him sitting down in the evening,after all the hard work of composing (although he probably did some then) and reflecting upon the fruits of his labours;maybe running through parts of what he had written,in his head.

On a more spiritual level,and Brian was an aetheist,of course;I love your imagery of Brian's music revealing his inner soul. I find it interesting that,unlike Bax,Brian never seemed to have felt an urge to write an 'autobiography'. Apart from the fact that he just wasn't interested,he probably understood that everything anyone really needed to know about him could be gleaned from listening to his music.

I wonder what he'd thought of this 280 page thread?!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 15, 2013, 04:15:54 PM
We're building our own 'Gothic' here...  :D


Brian wasn't an atheist. He was an agnostic. An atheist could never have composed the Judex, in which Christ comes to judge the living and the dead, leading to some rather frightening music...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 15, 2013, 05:48:42 PM
Like my father! Although,I always get the feeling he doesn't think too much of it! Anyway,thank you for clearing up this point.I did wonder? I seem to have read somewhere that he was an atheist. It would seem a bit of a contradiction,particularly when you are composing something of that magnitude! Anyway,too late to go into that sort of thing..........

I should add,there are some great endings on this cd,too. We're always talking about Brian being very good at openings;but the end of No22 is fantastic. I love it! And the bits before it,too!! ;D
I'll have to listen to No's 20,21 & 27,28 again soon,just to recap on what goes on before and after these mini marvels.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on May 16, 2013, 12:09:43 AM
Cilgwyn:
"Just a nice,comfy armchair,in the evening,and a bit music,or tv,maybe? (By the way,if had one;I wonder what he watched?!!"

Brian did have a TV - he says so in the documentary "The Unknown Warrior" on YouTube. As to what he watched - Malcolm MacDonald remembers him watching the science documentary "The Expanding Universe". Brian referred to himself as a "thinker" and I guess his TV viewing choices would have reflected this.

Concerning Brian's spirituality - according to MacDonald, near the end of his life HB was planning to compose a setting of Psalm 14, "The Fool says in his heart, there is no God."

I find that fascinating. What did that signify?

We will never know, but I will hazard a guess, which, of course, will probably be wrong! But here goes anyway.

I think HB had clearly lost any conventional religious faith. And I think "The Gothic" is where we almost hear it happen. I simply cannot hear that work without thinking it's Brian's reaction to the Great War.

Funeral marches, martial fanfares, passages suggesting lumbering tanks, the xylophone solo which sounds like a macabre dance of skeletons, the overpowering 5th movement with its theme of judgement, the "lah-lah-lah" passage in the final movement - pals' battallions singing as they go off to the front line?

Throughout the "Gothic", choral passages that suggest a long-gone age - the Age of Faith - are continually assaulted by the chaos and nihilism of the modern world.

I think Brian spells it all out in the final pages. The bass intones "Lord, thee have I trusted, let me never be confounded." Then follows the most violent outburst in the whole work, which ends with that quiet "non confundar".

I believe there are two ways to translate "non confundar in aeternum." One is "let me never be confounded", the other is "I shall never be confounded".

My strong feeling is that Brian, in these closing pages, is showing the state of his mind before and after the Great War, and at the end of this mighty musical working-out of a personal philosophy of life. After saying, in effect: "I've trusted you, God, don't let me down", God does let him down. He lets nations slaughter each other on a scale never seen before. And he lets Brian's personal life go pear shaped at the same time.

So that FINAL "non confundar" has a different meaning from its use in the bass's imploring solo. HB is saying, in effect: "I used to trust God. But if he exists, why did he let all this shit happen? Dammit, there's no God, after all - I'm on my own, and the only person I can have faith in, is myself. And I shall never be confounded."

And his very next symphony bears the subtitle, "Man in his cosmic loneliness". Surely that is significant?

But Brian was a thinker all his life. I wouldn't be surprised if his studies of literature and science didn't, near his life's close, bring him to a new understanding of God, quite different from the conventional "religious" one. And hence, perhaps, his intention to set Psalm 14.

But people who come to a such a new understanding of God find it difficult to talk about. I should know - I'm one of these people. You don't talk to atheist friends about it, because for them ANY sort of belief means you're nuts. Neither do you talk to religious friends, because they think you've sold out to Satan.

So what do you do? Keep it to yourself. Change their subject if it's raised. Even tell untruths for the sake of a quiet life. (I've told certain atheist friends that I believe the whole universe is a pointless accident, simply to avoid having to discuss my real beliefs.) Just the sort of reactions, in fact, that Brian gave when he was questioned

So we will never know about HB, but I suspect he was a "seeking agnostic" like myself, rather than an atheist.

Sorry I've been rambling on.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2013, 01:16:17 AM
That's not a ramble, but a very interesting piece of independent thinking. That possible meaning of the Gothic is very plausible... But I'll be responding more fully to your post later today, Klaatu (busy!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 16, 2013, 01:38:05 AM
I have it on good authority that HB used to sit in his comfy chair enjoying Match of the Day (when it featured Stoke City), Coronation Street, Terry & June, Jim'll Fix It and It's a Knockout. A man of the people was our Havergal. Stuffy telly wasn't his bag  :D What he would think of the recent revelations about Savile and Hall I really dread to think. Anyway, I really must get this Naxos CD and give it a whirl. Sounds as if it is worth getting hold of.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 16, 2013, 04:08:24 AM
I wonder if he watched the wrestling on Saturday,John;like my father (81,now!)?! ;D Thankfully he was too old to ask Jim to fix anything,and Bob Simpson had,anyway,so there!! I must admit,I was hoping Brian was a fan of The Avengers. I can just imagine him sitting there,happily watching Emma Peel beating villains up in a tight black leather catsuit! Oh,well?! :(

Klaatu,thank you for your response,and the kind of analytical post I can only dream about writing. It all sounds very plausible to me. Which reminds me,I should answer your George Lloyd post. For some reason,Lloyds music doesn't get me rushing off to the pc at strange hours of the morning,to post long rambling posts through eyes,bleary and swollen,with lack of sleep. I don't know why,maybe it should? I have some happy memories of braining my parents with his Seventh at full throttle,though! When I have some spare cash I might even buy a copy! Like Brian he was rediscovered late in life,and his music did arouse a bit of debate a few years ago;so maybe his thread deserves a renewal?

As to Brian? More later!!! This thread is disturbingly short for such an interesting composer! :o ;D








Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2013, 04:19:46 AM
There is something about Brian and television in Robert Matthew-Walker's Havergal Brian: Reminiscences and Observations. I'll look it up.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2013, 04:37:14 AM
"On my next visit a week or so later we discussed opera. Brian was full of the live television broadcast a few days before, direct from Rome, of Verdi's 'Otello' which was, I believe, the first such telecast. "Did you see it?" he asked, but I told him I was able only to snatch most of Act I before my fellow-soldiers came in to force me to switch over to 'Take Your Pick' or some other programme. We agreed that Act I was Verdi at his greatest (a view shared by another British composer, George Lloyd, who told me that Verdi's use of the orchestra in this act should be studied by everyone who wanted to become an operatic composer) but Brian much amused me when he reported what Mrs Brian had said.
   Excited by the announcement in Radio Times of this telecast, Brian had settled down in readiness, but as the opera was about to start, Mrs Brian got up and said she was going out. "Why don't you watch this?" Brian asked her. "I don't want to," she said. "But it's a very great masterpiece, and you may not get another chance like this." "I don't care," she replied, "and in any case I don't like opera." With that, she left to go and visit a neighbour, and Brian watched the opera alone. 'I daren't tell her I've got five operas of my own in the cupboard - if she knew that, she'd probably throw them all out to the dustman!"
   I asked him about his operas, and he went through them with me, pointing out that his one-act 'Agamemnon' was a setting in English intended as a curtain-raiser for Richard Strauss's 'Elektra', "To explain what had happened before Elektra begins, you see." His "you see" was very typical of him when he spoke of his own music. As a result of the 'Othello' broadcast I asked him if he watched much television; his answer was unforgettable: "No; television glorifies nobodies."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 16, 2013, 05:32:39 AM
If he thought television glorified nobodies he should see it now!! :o :( ;D
A fascinating and entertaining post,Johan. Well,we wanted to know,didn't we?!! So no Match of the Day,Coronation Street or Wrestling,let alone The Avengers! But maybe Mrs Brian?

Interesting about Mrs Brian's taste. My father has never been interested in music;he prefers reading. My late mother loved music. She even liked Havergal Brian! :)
Incidentally,Elektra is one of the few Richard Strauss operas I've ever really enjoyed (if that's the right word).
I didn't know Brian was such an admirer of Verdi. Well,writing operas I suppose he would need to know the works of the Italian master.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 16, 2013, 05:44:39 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2013, 04:37:14 AM
"On my next visit a week or so later we discussed opera. Brian was full of the live television broadcast a few days before, direct from Rome, of Verdi's 'Otello' which was, I believe, the first such telecast.

Johan, when did this conversation take place?

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2013, 05:46:26 AM
I checked - second half of 1960, Sarge.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 16, 2013, 05:49:35 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2013, 05:46:26 AM
I checked - second half of 1960, Sarge.

Thanks. A time in his life, then, when he was pumping out three and four symphonies a year. Probably not much time for the telly even if he had been interested in nobodies  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2013, 05:59:46 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 16, 2013, 06:02:43 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 16, 2013, 05:32:39 AM
So no Match of the Day,Coronation Street or Wrestling,let alone The Avengers!

The interview was in 1960. Mrs. Peel made her appearance in 1965. We can therefore hope, imagine? that Brian was, like most of us, infatuated and seduced also  ;)   Afterall, Mrs. Peel could hardly be called a nobody  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2013, 06:10:24 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 16, 2013, 06:02:43 AM
The interview was in 1960. Mrs. Peel made her appearance in 1965. We can therefore hope, imagine? that Brian was, like most of us, infatuated and seduced also  ;)   Afterall, Mrs. Peel could hardly be called a nobody  :D

Sarge


In 1965 Brian wrote two symphonies, 23 and 24 (remember those?) In No. 23 you can see him wrestling, violently, with Emma Peel's appeal. At the end of No. 24, you can see the old man finally succumbing.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 16, 2013, 06:20:45 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2013, 06:10:24 AM

In 1965 Brian wrote two symphonies, 23 and 24 (remember those?) In No. 23 you can see him wrestling, violently, with Emma Peel's appeal. At the end of No. 24, you can see the old man finally succumbing.  ;)

So I may have inadvertently discovered the clue that allows us to discern the full meaning of those tough-to-crack symphonies. Cool!  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2013, 06:24:15 AM
"It's a noisy SOB, isn't it?" (Sarge, a few pages ago, about the Naxos CD.) Considering what torment our octogenarian was going through, I think he's still rather restrained.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 16, 2013, 08:00:59 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2013, 06:10:24 AM

In 1965 Brian wrote two symphonies, 23 and 24 (remember those?) In No. 23 you can see him wrestling, violently, with Emma Peel's appeal. At the end of No. 24, you can see the old man finally succumbing.  ;)
Actually,it might have been Cathy Gale (Honor Blackman),Emma Riggs predecessor,who 'turned his tv on'? She famously knocked out the wrestler Jackie Pallo in one episode. Who knows,maybe Brian found her a bit of a knock out too?!

On second thoughts,I'd have been'watching' Verdi's Othello,too! :-[ :-X :D

Interesting theory about those Brian symphonies,Johan. Less cerebral than Klaatu's,but equally plausible!! It could also be a means of making late Brian accessible to a wider audience that would not otherwise appreciate this music. The martial bits could be a Klingon attack,the quiet reflective,lyrical moments,life on board the Starship Enterprise?

Update: Not being a Star Trek fan it's going to have to be Mordor and the Hobbits!

Now,where's my batphone? ::)


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 16, 2013, 02:54:46 PM
Interesting discussion, I'd never picked Brian for anything other than an agnostic, and not an Anglican agnostic like Vaughan Williams (ie agnostic, but still writing church-music).

I think he was more interested in Greek notions like moira (destiny/fate), and nemesis, from his readings of the Greek tragedians and historians.

If he was watching TV in 1960, he got it very early.

"No; television glorifies nobodies." Absolutely priceless Brian, in four words he pretty describes the last 70 years of popular and political culture.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 16, 2013, 04:05:05 PM
The story about his wife is particularly amusing. What I'd like to know is,did she like symphonies,or,actually, enjoy classical music for that matter? As i observed earlier,my father never did share my late mothers love of music. Not that he's ever  hates it,he just never felt interested enough to collect it,or seek it out. Reading,classic movies & art are his passion,in life. So,marriage doesn't mean you have to share the same interests. Of course,in Brian's case he was a prolific composer!

Brian's observation that,"television glorifies nobodies",is even more pertinent now than it was then,in this age of Big Brother,I'm a Celebrity,Britains Got Talent, and endless reality shows.

I was hoping to listen to the symphonies immeadiately preceding and following No's 22-24 tonight (yesterday!) but sadly a migraine intervened. (Wrong glasses possibly? They both look the b**** same!)

By the way,I'm with you on the late symphonies,calyptorhyncus.

John,you must obtain this new Naxos cd. I wasn't going to buy it,but it's more or less converted me,to the post No20 symphonies!
If they played Khatchaturian or Bruckner like this lot play Brian,you'd be a lifelong fan! ;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2013, 04:08:56 PM
"If they played Khatchaturian or Bruckner like this lot play Brian,you'd be a lifelong fan!"


When he wakes up later this morning, expect some withering sarcasm.


I listened to the Newstone 7th - wonderful work. Brian takes his time and still is his unpredictable self. I must say that the Naxos CD has really rekindled my love for Brian (not that the fire ever went out, of course!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 17, 2013, 12:51:18 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2013, 04:08:56 PM
"If they played Khatchaturian or Bruckner like this lot play Brian,you'd be a lifelong fan!"


When he wakes up later this morning, expect some withering sarcasm.

I listened to the Newstone 7th - wonderful work. Brian takes his time and still is his unpredictable self. I must say that the Naxos CD has really rekindled my love for Brian (not that the fire ever went out, of course!)

I'm just far too busy for withering sarcasm. I'm currently engrossed in Khach's magnificent 3rd Symphony. It's up there with Nielsen 5 and Simpson 9.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 18, 2013, 04:56:13 AM
Unfortunately,I appear to have given Khach's 3rd,to the YMCA!! ???

Going through some of the symphonies,immeadiately,on either side of the new Naxos cd. I see that Dundonnell,at the AMF,rates No26 as Brian's weakest. Is this true? I'll be listening to it,soon!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 18, 2013, 05:04:38 AM
Malcolm MacDonald is critical of 25 and 26, both of them. I can understand that. No. 25 is forceful, but a bit dry, and No. 26 has a bit of a 'going through the motions' feeling. BUT - as I am impressed by Symphony No. 23 on the new Naxos CD, a work which MM also doesn't rate very highly, I think I shall revisit No. 26...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 18, 2013, 05:27:19 AM
And he didn't care much for No 13 (and 14,I think?),but I gather he may have revised his opinion,a little? (I'll have to look through the posts here,and at the AMF,again).As you know,No13 is a personal favourite of mine.
I'm going to have another listen to No 31 on emi,as well. I know I like that one! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 18, 2013, 05:48:59 AM
By the way;I suppose this question has,undoubtedly,been asked before;but is there any current interest in the HB Society in getting Malcolm MacDonald's books about the symphonies republished? If so,is there any prospect of this occurring? I noticed that the Boughton trust "by agreement with the estate of Michael Hurd" are planning  to have Michael Hurd's book,'Rutland Boughton and the Glastonbury Festivals',reissued in the "forseeable" future!
'Forseeable is a bit 'iffy',but it does mean that something is being tackled!
Any hope for Malcolm MacDonald's trilogy?!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 18, 2013, 05:52:53 AM
MMls trilogy is still available for members through the HBS, which bought up the last stock. It'll set you back, iirc, around 25 pounds...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2013, 06:36:14 AM
I'm delighted to see symphony No 22 back in the catalogue. An epic work despite its brevity (no pun intended) - I last heard it on my old CBS Hull Youth SO LP. Johan - can you remind me which number English Suite was on the same LP please (+ a Psalm I think). I really liked that LP from the same forces which brought us Bantock's 'Hebridean Symphony'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 18, 2013, 06:56:19 AM
Hi, Jeffrey! The CBS LP was made by the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra (which also made the immortal Symphonies 10 + 21 recording). It contained Symphony No. 22, Psalm 23 and English Suite No. 5. The Hull Youth Orchestra recorded Brian's early orchestral works and the Bantock you mention. By the way, the LSSO LPs will be reissued on a twofer by Heritage...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2013, 07:50:43 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 18, 2013, 06:56:19 AM
Hi, Jeffrey! The CBS LP was made by the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra (which also made the immortal Symphonies 10 + 21 recording). It contained Symphony No. 22, Psalm 23 and English Suite No. 5. The Hull Youth Orchestra recorded Brian's early orchestral works and the Bantock you mention. By the way, the LSSO LPs will be reissued on a twofer by Heritage...

Hi Johan  :) Yes, I totally mixed that up! Still it could have been worse as I might have suggested that the HB was performed by the City of Hull Youth Jazz Band! ( An excellent ensemble whom I have heard live). The Bantock is now on CD too I see (Cameo Classics - they have also recently reissued a HB collection). Thanks Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 18, 2013, 08:15:43 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 18, 2013, 06:36:14 AM
I'm delighted to see symphony No 22 back in the catalogue. An epic work despite its brevity (no pun intended) - I last heard it on my old CBS Hull Youth SO LP. Johan - can you remind me which number English Suite was on the same LP please (+ a Psalm I think). I really liked that LP from the same forces which brought us Bantock's 'Hebridean Symphony'.
HOW VERY DARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 18, 2013, 08:22:34 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 18, 2013, 06:36:14 AM
I'm delighted to see symphony No 22 back in the catalogue. An epic work despite its brevity (no pun intended) - I last heard it on my old CBS Hull Youth SO LP. Johan - can you remind me which number English Suite was on the same LP please (+ a Psalm I think). I really liked that LP from the same forces which brought us Bantock's 'Hebridean Symphony'.
By the way, even though Heritage plans to reissue this LSSO CBS LP from 1974 (Symph 22, Suite 5 "Rustic Scenes", Psalm 23) in a few months, there is a good refurb at Klassic Haus which sounds vastly superior to the old LP. The download costs peanuts and will certainly tide you over:
http://www.klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-No--22-Psalm-23-English-Suite-No--5---LSSO.php
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 18, 2013, 09:25:14 AM
What an expensive day. I finally got around to ordering the new Naxos Symphony 22 CD plus another couple of odds and ends. When I was about to place the order I came across "Mercury Living Presence Collector's Edition Vol 2". 55 CDs for 87 quid. Having already shelled out 75 quid on Vol 1 last year (51 CDs) my resistance collapsed. I had to have it. These Mercurys, along with the Everest catalogue (which I also have), are some of the most remarkable technical achievements in the history of recorded sound. Artistically good too. Digital recording? No thanks. Three mic/analogues on 35mm tape yield a truly musical balance and gripping sound quality with a manageable dynamic range in the domestic setting. Has sound recording really advanced significantly since the late 1950s? I'm not so sure it has. I have some listening to do next week  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on May 21, 2013, 02:26:06 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 18, 2013, 08:15:43 AM
HOW VERY DARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:D :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2013, 10:20:43 AM
I just spotted the review of the new Naxos HB cd on musicweb (just in case anyone else hasn't?).
Must go right back & read it now! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2013, 10:22:53 AM
Ta very much!


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/May13/Brian_22_8572833.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/May13/Brian_22_8572833.htm)


I like it!


No. 22 being the most memorable since No. 6... The Symphonia Brevis is a strong piece, undoubtedly, but I do think there are symphonies inbetween that are just as strong - 8, 10, 12, 16...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2013, 10:41:49 AM
Thanks for providing the handy link,Johan!
Setting aside the 'Gothic' as a special case,Rob Barnett rates No 22 as the most memorable after No 6! What do you think?
By the way,is this is review a 'rushed' job,or draft? Lots of odd dead ends & question marks?!
Oh,well! ??? :)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2013, 10:44:35 AM
There is something wrong with the coding on the page - the apostrophe s comes out as ? and so does the en-dash (-). A bit disconcerting, but I managed to read around it.


My answer to your question I have already given. I don't agree with Rob Barnett's verdict about symphonies 1 to 22!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2013, 10:50:13 AM
. . . "the single most numerous aspect of his production" is a vile phrase.

Well, maybe not vile (couldn't resist channeling Polonius), but gawd it's clunky.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2013, 10:55:59 AM
Agreed, Karl. It struck me too as not wholly felicitous...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2013, 11:00:58 AM
And I'm not the man to reject a moderate verbal roundabout untried . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2013, 11:21:18 AM
Who am I to deny the undeniable?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 21, 2013, 01:04:51 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2013, 10:44:35 AM
There is something wrong with the coding on the page - the apostrophe s comes out as ? and so does the en-dash (-). A bit disconcerting, but I managed to read around it.


My answer to your question I have already given. I don't agree with Rob Barnett's verdict about symphonies 1 to 22!
Just had a word with Rob. He will sort out the coding issue.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 21, 2013, 01:06:11 PM
Thanks, John.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2013, 04:00:56 PM
Whether one agrees with Rob Barnett,or not,I couldn't resist programming in just the 22nd,after hearing this. I can see why RB nearly wore out his Lp! It really is a fantastic listen. HB certainly packs allot into a short span,the momentum never stops......and the way it ends! Wow!! I'm impressed! I think this could be a favourite,now! :)

With performances as good as the ones on this cd,I can only hope (and the rest of us Brianites) that Alexander Walker & his team will give us a give us some more of these late symphonies. Imho,this is one of the best Brian cds I have ever heard. I honestly think this cd is very exciting!  It seems unbelievable,that I was grouching at the prospect of more Brian from Naxos,at the AMF,only a couple of weeks ago!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2013, 04:57:07 PM
This mercurial symphony seems to take in a bit of everything. There's every Brian mode or mood you can think of,yet it's all over in a couple of minutes. I think I've lost count of how many times I've listened to over the course of the last hour,or so. I can't get enough of it!

Curiously,this Symphony brings to mind another very short symphony some of us,at the GMG,had a listen to,a while ago. Langgaards Symphony No 11 'Ixion'! Of course,there is no comparison. It's just interesting how two composers condense a symphonic argument into such a small time span. Langgaard's effort,unlike Brian's,is a bit like a very loud,angry rant;but unlike some,I actually rather admire what he does. Like it,or hate it,there is nothing else quite like it. Some may say,thank goodness! But for me they are both products of the imagination of two one of a kind,mavericks. And even if Langgaard doesn't pack as much variety into his 11th,he certainly makes up for it with one of the most astonishingly varied symphonic cycle I have ever encountered.
End of comparison! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 21, 2013, 05:01:08 PM
Having said all that,no surprises as to which Symphony I will be returning to more often! :)


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 22, 2013, 02:49:04 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 21, 2013, 05:01:08 PM
Having said all that,no surprises as to which Symphony I will be returning to more often! :)
Famous last words! The Dacapo cd of the 11th is preceded by No's 9 & 10. So much variety here & RD's orchestration always has such a distinctive sound,and so much variety here.I'm hooked! Better revive the Langgaard thread,I suppose! I notice audiences were quite positive towards the Ixion! It's just having the chance to hear these things. I wonder how they will react to Bantock?

I'll pop the Brian Newstone 7 on later. I was going to listen to No 26,but unfortunately,it was one of my early attempts at cd-r making & the track listings were pretty basic. It doesn't help! :( Time to burn a new cd'r,I think?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 22, 2013, 02:51:38 AM
Langgaard's 9th and 10th are wonderful and firm favourites of mine! I like the fullness and warmth of Langgaard's music. And - thanks for your infectiously enthusiastic posts last night, cilgwyn!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2013, 09:48:10 AM
Okay, the Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havergal_Brian) has (peculiarly, as I see it) a chart of dates for the recordings of the symphonies, but not for their composition. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, people!

Who here is going to do something about it??!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 22, 2013, 03:17:26 PM
The HB Wikipedia page is in need of some work. I have tried to put information on there from time to time. For example I put in a link to the radio recordings (though this was to Unsung Composers before its dumbing down, so I guess that link would need to be revised) and to klassichaus.

The trouble with Wikipedia is that you can put a lot of work on in supplying material, all accurate, non-contentious, and referenced.... and it just disappears!

I guess the problem is with little known areas, like HB, the editors won't know anything about it, and if they don't like something they just remove it.

>:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 22, 2013, 04:24:10 PM
I feel your pain.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on May 22, 2013, 11:55:11 PM
Karl,,

Does this help?

http://www.havergalbrian.org/all-works-by-type.php

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 23, 2013, 01:51:16 AM
It certainly does.....help me,anyway! That's the information I needed when I was trying to listen to Havergal Brian's 'weakest' symphony (supposedly?). This was one of my first cd-r's. The only tracks were for the individual symphonies;no other information! :( Now,I can see that the symphony is in two movements,how long it lasts (approximately) and the instrumentation used. It doesn't half help!!

Rued Langgaard's still on the cd player here. Like HB this music is so engrossing. Marvellous!

I had the old emi recording of Brian's thirty first on,the other day. This must be one of his most approachable late offerings,with it's deep bass (growly) Brian sonorities and 'spacey' sounds. The Lp friendly duration aside,it shares some of the Seventh symphonies enigmatic qualities.
Incidentally,the artwork for the original emi release seems far more appropriate than the 'British composer' reissue. However,I don't have that cd,so I can't identify the illustration,or painting,on the cover? There may well be,and presumably is a connection,otherwise they wouldn't have chosen it?! Does anyone here have that cd? If so,would they be so kind as to tell me what the picture is & who it is by? It's usually in the booklets small print,somewhere.
The emi 'twofer' reinstates the original artwork,but reduces it to a 'detail'. This is an improvement,and of course the set includes the Grove eighth & ninth,but I still prefer the Lp cover,in a way. Not that it matters,of course! :)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 23, 2013, 01:57:09 AM
I have that CD of 31 & 7, the first-ever CD I bought and for which I even invested in a CD player! On the front cover: 'Lucifer and his Angels' on the tower of Strasbourg Cathedral: illustration by Sidney H. Meteyard for an edition of The Golden Legend by Longfellow (Hodder and Stoughton, before 1910)....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 23, 2013, 02:50:02 AM
Yes,it certainly caught the eye! It looked even better as an Lp sleeve,really;but it still looks good. Not that I particularly love the picture;but it is odd,and strangely effective. It catches the eye,a bit like that Hyperion release of the Gothic. I can imagine someone picking it up & going," Oh no,it's not AC DC's 'Back in Black'!! ;D
However,the one I was referring to was the one on the front of the emi British composer reissue. The artwork used doesn't seem anywhere near as effective,or appropriate,but then again,I don't know who it is by,or what it signifies. The blurry image on Amazon shows a man in a top hat,or stove pipe,amongst others,sitting on the ground. Presumably the painting has some kind of connection with the music,which led to it's inclusion?!!
Just wondering?!!
Regarding the Lp of the Groves eighth & ninth. You still can't beat that dramatic photo of Brian,with just his facial features picked out in the light. Almost planet like. A genuinely arresting image. It grabs hold of your attention. Superb,I call it! A truly classic record sleeve. I seem to recall that it was used in conjunction with the article in The Times,which first brought Brian to my attention. The photo was reproduced,along with the heading 'Brian's Gothic Mountain looms'! The combination of the photo & the heading drew my eye immediately. Of course,the article referred to the upcoming Ole Schmidt performance.
The emi studio cd release of Groves 8 & 9 has a photo of trees silhouetted against the sky. It's inoffensive,quite pleasant,I suppose,but a bit bland & anonymous,as if they just picked up the first photo they could get hold of. Somehow,it seems a bit wrong for Brian.
One more original Brian Lp! The abstract design for the original Lyrita Lp,of No's 6 & 16, always seemed (at least for me) more appropriate than the landscape on the cd reissue. For some strange reason,the abstraction of all those fragmented blocks of shapes & colours seemed to gel with the music I was hearing. It was almost as if the author of the Lp artwork was trying to create a visual equivalent of those brilliant,sometimes almost mosaic like,blocs of sound. I used to prop it up in front of me while the Lp was playing. A pity they coudn't use it again,but it wouldn't go with the Arnold Cooke! ;D

Another fantastic Lyrita Lp sleeve,imho,was the Bax one of Tintagel (etc) with those waves. Wow! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 23, 2013, 03:14:18 AM
I don't know that reissue, nor can I find it online...


Here is the Lyrita:

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 23, 2013, 03:39:29 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on May 22, 2013, 11:55:11 PM
Karl,

Does this help?

http://www.havergalbrian.org/all-works-by-type.php

;)

Thank you, sieur!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 23, 2013, 03:41:40 AM
Excellent! Very striking! Of course,you can always prop the Lp up,if you've got it,while listening to the cd!

The emi cd I was referring to is there to see,albeit in a very blurry photo. Just put Brian Mackerras into the Amazon search engine & it comes up. Well,it does for me,anyway! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 23, 2013, 03:50:42 AM
And ebay,£4.60,post free! I'll stick to the twofer,I think! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 23, 2013, 04:38:41 AM
 Found it. Looks like a picture by Hogarth.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on May 23, 2013, 09:17:09 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 23, 2013, 01:57:09 AM
I have that CD of 31 & 7, the first-ever CD I bought and for which I even invested in a CD player! On the front cover: 'Lucifer and his Angels' on the tower of Strasbourg Cathedral: illustration by Sidney H. Meteyard for an edition of The Golden Legend by Longfellow (Hodder and Stoughton, before 1910)....
Have that one, too. Not my first CD, but probably among the first one hundred. ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 24, 2013, 02:44:25 AM
Just had a quick listen to the new Naxos. First thoughts. Good playing but it doesn't sound Russian at all or even Eastern European. Not a complaint just an observation. I personally don't care much for Russian orchestral playing so it's a relief. Super recording. Natural, clear but not toppy. I've made myself another CD removing the ridiculous gap in the middle of Symphony 22. This supposed to be two movements played without a break. Strange artistic decision to leave such a pause. Ending of 22 is as lame as lame can be - smooth, lacking in bite and no sense of mystery. It just fizzles out. Prefer my old school band here. Overall much better than the Marco Polo stuff though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2013, 04:19:52 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 23, 2013, 02:50:02 AM
Regarding the Lp of the Groves eighth & ninth. You still can't beat that dramatic photo of Brian,with just his facial features picked out in the light. Almost planet like. A genuinely arresting image.

Quote from: cilgwyn on May 23, 2013, 03:41:40 AM
The emi cd I was referring to is there to see,albeit in a very blurry photo.

Here's my scan of the LP (left click to enlarge):

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2011/img609_hbrian89.jpg)


Sarge

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2013, 04:31:19 AM
Almost a touch of Wagner there, wot?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 24, 2013, 04:40:07 AM
Methinks the old Anton is in there somewhere, too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 24, 2013, 08:45:28 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 24, 2013, 02:44:25 AM
Just had a quick listen to the new Naxos. First thoughts. Good playing but it doesn't sound Russian at all or even Eastern European. Not a complaint just an observation. I personally don't care much for Russian orchestral playing so it's a relief. Super recording. Natural, clear but not toppy. I've made myself another CD removing the ridiculous gap in the middle of Symphony 22. This supposed to be two movements played without a break. Strange artistic decision to leave such a pause. Ending of 22 is as lame as lame can be - smooth, lacking in bite and no sense of mystery. It just fizzles out. Prefer my old school band here. Overall much better than the Marco Polo stuff though.
I'm going to have to listen to the LSSO performance now! And there I was going on about that great ending (on the Naxos recording). What do I know,eh?! :(
Interesting about that 'ridiculous' gap'?
It is great sound quality,though. I wonder how John rates this production in comparison to the Dutton recordings of Brian? I know he was very critical of the Dutton cd of the Violin Concerto. One thing I DO hate about Dutton. Their transfers of historic recordings. I only buy them when there is no alternative. Very interventionist. On the plus side some people won't listen to early electrical,or acoustic,recordings because of the background noises of shellac,swishing,etc;so they're more likely to listen to a cleaned up recording. My problem is the length to which Michael Dutton goes. This is why I forked out for the old Pearl 5cd set of Elgar's pre-electrical recordings,bronzed as they were,rather than the new restorations,from Music & Arts, all the Elgarians are banging on about. I'd swap airbrushed imposters for a bit of clarity & soothing,shellac background swish,any day!
Of course,John,being a bit of an expert on this kind of thing,may have a different slant. But what's the point of a 1930s,0r 40's recording,that's had so much background noise extracted,it sounds like a sterile,dull impersonation of it's former self?!

Thanks for reproducing that classic emi sleeve,Johan. I only wish I'd kept mine,now! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 24, 2013, 04:01:47 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 24, 2013, 08:45:28 AM
I'm going to have to listen to the LSSO performance now! And there I was going on about that great ending (on the Naxos recording). What do I know,eh?! :(
Interesting about that 'ridiculous' gap'?
It is great sound quality,though. I wonder how John rates this production in comparison to the Dutton recordings of Brian? I know he was very critical of the Dutton cd of the Violin Concerto. One thing I DO hate about Dutton. Their transfers of historic recordings. I only buy them when there is no alternative. Very interventionist. On the plus side some people won't listen to early electrical,or acoustic,recordings because of the background noises of shellac,swishing,etc;so they're more likely to listen to a cleaned up recording. My problem is the length to which Michael Dutton goes. This is why I forked out for the old Pearl 5cd set of Elgar's pre-electrical recordings,bronzed as they were,rather than the new restorations,from Music & Arts, all the Elgarians are banging on about. I'd swap airbrushed imposters for a bit of clarity & soothing,shellac background swish,any day!
Of course,John,being a bit of an expert on this kind of thing,may have a different slant. But what's the point of a 1930s,0r 40's recording,that's had so much background noise extracted,it sounds like a sterile,dull impersonation of it's former self?!

Thanks for reproducing that classic emi sleeve,Johan. I only wish I'd kept mine,now! :(
I much prefer the sound quality of the new Naxos compared to the Dutton fiddle concerto. As far as restorations go there is a point where you have to say enough is enough and accept some residual background noise. I think that if you go too far you take too much away from the original performance almost to the point of destruction. This is where my friend at Klassic Haus comes up trumps. Just enough fiddling to improve things but never to the detriment of the originsal recording and its inherent spirit. One example is the LSSO/Tippett Suite in D, ruined by Pye by a hum at around 50hz. Remove it all = no bass. Remove a little = minimal hum but still with a decent bottom end. Which sounds best? The latter.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 24, 2013, 06:39:48 PM
"Ending of 22 is as lame as lame can be - smooth, lacking in bite and no sense of mystery. It just fizzles out."

Could this be an conscious decision, bearing in mind the recording then goes on to No.23, whereas the LSSO record 22 as a stand-alone?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 25, 2013, 12:38:59 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 24, 2013, 06:39:48 PM
"Ending of 22 is as lame as lame can be - smooth, lacking in bite and no sense of mystery. It just fizzles out."

Could this be an conscious decision, bearing in mind the recording then goes on to No.23, whereas the LSSO record 22 as a stand-alone?
Maybe but music needs to stand alone. I don't expect a lame ending because of a record company's decision on couplings. No 22 isn't the first movement of something else.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 26, 2013, 02:07:29 AM
I've been listening again to the two versions of 22, John, and I'm inclined to agree with you.

The gap between the movements of the Naxos recording is too long. As for the ending, I can't detect much difference until the last few bars where the Naxos recording ignores the sforzandi. Oh we'll, I guess it wouldn't be the first recording where the the performance ignores a few of the directions in the score.

I guess this means that the LSSO is still the preferred recording for 22. The reissue of the LSSO disks would certainly be recommended for the symphonies 10 and 22. If another recording of 21 is issued it'll be interesting to compare with theirs.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 26, 2013, 03:51:15 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 26, 2013, 02:07:29 AM
I've been listening again to the two versions of 22, John, and I'm inclined to agree with you.

The gap between the movements of the Naxos recording is too long. As for the ending, I can't detect much difference until the last few bars where the Naxos recording ignores the sforzandi. Oh we'll, I guess it wouldn't be the first recording where the the performance ignores a few of the directions in the score.

I guess this means that the LSSO is still the preferred recording for 22. The reissue of the LSSO disks would certainly be recommended for the symphonies 10 and 22. If another recording of 21 is issued it'll be interesting to compare with theirs.
I don't think the LSSO 22 is the preferred version. The Naxos playing is superior, of course it is, but the ending lets it down. My opinion of course.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 26, 2013, 04:03:34 AM
I have to write a review for the HBS Newsletter, so I'll be comparing the two versions (and the Fredman, too). I agree that there is more 'bite' to the ending in the LSSO performance.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 27, 2013, 02:21:27 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 26, 2013, 04:03:34 AM
I have to write a review for the HBS Newsletter, so I'll be comparing the two versions (and the Fredman, too). I agree that there is more 'bite' to the ending in the LSSO performance.
At the end of the day, we should be happy to have 3 versions of the symphony on hand. A good restoration of Fredman on Klassic Haus, another of the LSSO/Heltay LP (also on Klassic Haus) and now a new one by a Russian orchestra in spectacular sound. 2 downloads and a Naxos disc at a total cost of less than 20 quid. Not to be sniffed at. Hopefully the new Heritage transfer of Heltay's recording will also be worth a listen. It's a good piece. One of his best symphonies I think.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 27, 2013, 02:26:29 PM
Yes, it's a good piece, very compelling. There is a fourth performance (from 26 October 1983), the first public one, which I have on a tape I can't play anymore: by Sir Charles Groves, conducting the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. There is a review by Malcolm MacDonald on the HBS site: http://www.havergalbrian.org/sym22_1.htm (http://www.havergalbrian.org/sym22_1.htm)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 28, 2013, 01:19:11 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 27, 2013, 02:26:29 PM
Yes, it's a good piece, very compelling. There is a fourth performance (from 26 October 1983), the first public one, which I have on a tape I can't play anymore: by Sir Charles Groves, conducting the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. There is a review by Malcolm MacDonald on the HBS site: http://www.havergalbrian.org/sym22_1.htm (http://www.havergalbrian.org/sym22_1.htm)
Cassette or reel to reel? If it's a cassette I can transfer it for you.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 28, 2013, 01:24:13 AM
Thanks for the offer, John. It's a cassette, but I don't have it here in Delft. I know the HBS must have a recording... I vaguely remember it, also a few fluffed notes here and there... Oh well, three performances is enough, and MM's review gives you an excellent idea.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 28, 2013, 01:48:22 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 24, 2013, 08:45:28 AM
Thanks for reproducing that classic emi sleeve,Johan. I only wish I'd kept mine,now! :(

My name is Sarge  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 28, 2013, 01:52:27 AM
Yes, I noticed that, too, but forgot to correct it. Credit, where credit is due.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 28, 2013, 04:40:06 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 28, 2013, 01:24:13 AM
Thanks for the offer, John. It's a cassette, but I don't have it here in Delft. I know the HBS must have a recording... I vaguely remember it, also a few fluffed notes here and there... Oh well, three performances is enough, and MM's review gives you an excellent idea.
If it's not in Delft where is it? You haven't got a 'Dundonnell' style treasure trove in the attic there,have you? I could send you a step ladder by courier! ;D (Maybe you've got the fabled 'Prometheus Unbound' up there? But how would it have got there?! ???)

I thought I might have a wasps nest in mine! But no,I had a look a bit earlier. Even wasps shun the place!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 28, 2013, 04:46:29 AM
Part of my library is in Amsterdam at my sister's place, due to lack of space since my divorce... A box with Brian cassettes is there, too. Since I have almost everything in mp3 format, I didn't feel the need to have the cassettes here (apart from the fact I don't have a cassette player anymore!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 28, 2013, 05:23:01 AM
I bought one of the last cassette decks in production about a year and a half a go! I've always wanted one. I always had dodgy cassette radios & portable type recorders. Ironic that as soon as I finally get one,the cassette has been consigned to history.........well,almost! You can still but blank cassettes & apparently sales of cassette singles tripled in 2012! ??? ;D So maybe it's not quite the end?!! ;D I also have a mini hi-fi that plays cassettes and a radio cassette recorder that still work,very well,so far!

  A year & a half later I still haven't got around to putting up that fm stereo aerial I bought. All I need is a loft bracket & a diplexer (splits fm tv signal,so you don't need two aerial cables!). Knowing my luck,by the time I put it up UK radio will have gone digital! :(



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 28, 2013, 05:33:55 AM
My 5cd changer is playing VW's marvellous 'Five Tudor portraits' at the moment. Extraordinary how music as good as this isn't played all the time! Having said that,I am given to understand that cd changers are as outmoded as cassette recorders in 'fashionable' circles! :( ;D
Some interesting debate about Bryden Thomson going on at the Bax thread. A fascinating character whose thread deserves to be allot longer. But can he ever compete with the HB thread,I wonder?!! This one'll run and run,as they say!! ;D

Groves conducting No22. That should be quite good?! Give the cassette to John & you might have another Klassic Haus release!! ;D



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 28, 2013, 06:38:44 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 28, 2013, 05:33:55 AM
My 5cd changer is playing VW's marvellous 'Five Tudor portraits' at the moment.

One portrait per CD?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 28, 2013, 07:01:24 AM
 ;D Yes,very convenient. The man was a visionary genius. He foresaw the day that man would place his choral masterwork on silvery discs and insert them into a carousel like device with five round indentations & a machine would do all the hard work! (The lazy slob!)
Of course,some machines utilise a 6cd cartridge,but that's beside the point! And VW would have had to have composed another Tudor portrait!
But hey,why stop at Five?!! Or even six?!! VW's 'Ten Tudor Portraits' could have been fun!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 28, 2013, 09:50:21 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 28, 2013, 07:01:24 AM
;D Yes,very convenient. The man was a visionary genius. He foresaw the day that man would place his choral masterwork on silvery discs and insert them into a carousel like device with five round indentations & a machine would do all the hard work! (The lazy slob!)
Of course,some machines utilise a 6cd cartridge,but that's beside the point! And VW would have had to have composed another Tudor portrait!
But hey,why stop at Five?!! Or even six?!! VW's 'Ten Tudor Portraits' could have been fun!
One Tudor Portrait is one too many for me  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2013, 02:10:19 AM
The Hurwitzer has spoken:

"Havergal Brian may be a "cult composer", but he's surely one of the better ones. His music, even from its early days, was always strange, imaginative, and distinctive, and this disc, containing some very early and very late works, makes the point tellingly. Symphonies Nos. 22-24 form a trilogy. They were all composed between 11:30am and 9pm on May 26th, 1965, when the composer was 137 years old."

Full review here (http://www.classicstoday.com/review/brians-enigmatic-and-uplifting-symphonies-22-24/)


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 29, 2013, 02:14:50 AM
Bravo, David Hurwitz! (And thanks, Sarge!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 29, 2013, 02:44:00 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2013, 02:10:19 AM
The Hurwitzer has spoken:

"Havergal Brian may be a "cult composer", but he's surely one of the better ones. His music, even from its early days, was always strange, imaginative, and distinctive, and this disc, containing some very early and very late works, makes the point tellingly. Symphonies Nos. 22-24 form a trilogy. They were all composed between 11:30am and 9pm on May 26th, 1965, when the composer was 137 years old."

Full review here (http://www.classicstoday.com/review/brians-enigmatic-and-uplifting-symphonies-22-24/)


Sarge
This included a rather late full English breakfast, a 90 minute lunch break and an hour in the local pub after watching an episode of Coronation Street on the telly. This bloke knew how to live.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2013, 02:47:55 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 29, 2013, 02:44:00 AM
This included a rather late full English breakfast, a 90 minute lunch break and an hour in the local pub after watching an episode of Coronation Street on the telly. This bloke knew how to live.


:D ;D :D


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 29, 2013, 04:08:20 PM
The man has got a sense of humour after all. Very amusing actually! Has he won the lottery?! I'm almost beginning to like the man after reading that. What a surprise! ??? ;D
(I wonder what Dundonnell will have to say about this,over at the AMF?)

A nice review with a bit of dry wit,thrown in! He'll be joining the HBS next!!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Octave on June 01, 2013, 10:26:33 PM
Is there any significant difference between these two Naxos editions of the 'Gothic'?

(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/MuzeAudioArt/Large/71/1176671.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71yaGRpukZL._SL1500_.jpg)

I've looked over a number of reviews but only seen comments comparing the '21st Anniversary Limited Edition' (the second one above) to the original Marco Polo edition.  It seems this Anniv. Edition has somewhat better sound and helpful notes w/index points etc.  Not sure about the first one pictured above.

I did a little searching through the thread but could not see a comparison between these two newer editions.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 02, 2013, 06:06:13 AM
Hello, Octave! That Anniversary edition by Naxos coincided with two performances of the 'Gothic', one in Brisbane (December 2010) and London (July 2011). The latter performance, during the Proms, was issued on CD by Hyperion later that year. I have read, like you, that the Anniversary Edition has a better sound than the original Marco Polo edition, but I cannot verify it because I spent my money on the new Hyperion CD and not on a recording I already had... By the way, most Brianites seem to agree that the Brabbins 'Gothic' is, overall, a better performance than the Lenard, so - if you want to own a 'Gothic', go for the Hyperion!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 03, 2013, 03:50:24 PM
On this thread we often complain about recordings, or lament that certain works aren't recorded and so forth.

I've just been listening to the Marco Polo/Naxos Symphonies 20/25 disk and wanted to say how lucky we are to have this disk. This is because these two works aren't obivous candidates for recording. Malcolm Amcdonald praises them, but then qualifies this by saying they are both cold and emotionally detached.

I suppose they are cooler comapred to the symphonies and other works in between, but they are both substantial works in that mood that is typically Brian. I don't thing it's cold or emoptionally detached, it's more "this is how things are, you might not like it, but that how they are. let's see what we can do despite this." I find this kind of stoicism very exhilarating.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Octave on June 03, 2013, 04:07:02 PM
Hi J.Z., and thanks for your input and suggestion.  I am actually gambling a bit with the Naxos selection because I am a disciple of Sarge's outlier's bloodymindedness, and he solidly recommended the Lenard/Marco Polo/Naxos recording because of one chord.  (j/k*)
Sarge told me himself that the Brabbins was the consensus pick and that his own preference for the Lenard was unusual.  I might very well end up with both if I morph into a Brianite.  I guess I am hoping for a cheaper copy of the Brabbins via BRO some day.

*actually I think he was not kidding.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 03, 2013, 04:20:53 PM
Calyptorhynchus - I love Symphony No. 20, it's spacious and it has some really heartfelt passages. Overall, it's one of Brian's most balanced works ('claasical' indeed). No. 25 is a bit paler; it has its share of powerful moments, but it's not a piece I return to very often.

Octave - I know which chord Sarge has in mind. He and I have crossed swords about the merits of Lenard and Brabbins in that climactic chord. I have come round to his view that Lenard's is probably the better reading. Still, Brabbins has so much going for him in the hundreds of other moments, I'd opt for him. Having both performances is, of course, the ideal situation.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on June 04, 2013, 11:12:27 PM
The BBC are currently broadcasting a month of British music. Havergal Brian's turn is this Friday the 7th 13:00-17:00 (Radio 3)

Brian: Symphony No 3 in C sharp minor
Andrew Ball, Julian Jacobson (pianos)
BBC Symphony Orchestra
Lionel Friend (conductor)

There may be more to come but the BBC are rather sparing with schedule info these days.

Actually, there seems to be a lot of good stuff being broadcast.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 05, 2013, 03:17:59 AM
That's very good news,but part of me wishes they could have chosen the Pope performance. Brian's third at it's best & they've got in their archives,haven't they?! ::) A bit like putting on the Brabbin's tenth instead of the LSSO,or the Lenard Gothic instead of the Brabbins (sorry Sarge! ;D
Anyway,it's good that it's getting a hearing!

Moan,moan,eh?!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 05, 2013, 03:51:46 AM
Brianites can get no satisfaction...


Good news for me, though: I just received 1200 Classical Points (which buys you music!) from ClassicsOnline for writing one of the best Customer Reviews of the last two weeks. I wrote one (under my other name Jezetha) about the new Naxos CD. This is turning out to be a good day.


http://www.classicsonline.com/generics.aspx?id=CustomerReviews&utm_source=COL_Emails&utm_medium=email&utm_content=BestCustomerReviews_txt&utm_campaign=COL_AlbumReview (http://www.classicsonline.com/generics.aspx?id=CustomerReviews&utm_source=COL_Emails&utm_medium=email&utm_content=BestCustomerReviews_txt&utm_campaign=COL_AlbumReview)


Thanks for the tipoff, Hattoff!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on June 05, 2013, 04:21:09 AM
Splendid, Johan!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 05, 2013, 04:21:44 AM
Congratulations! 'll read that in a minute. Have you seen the review of the Naxos Brian cd in this months International Record Review Magazine,Johan?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 05, 2013, 04:29:43 AM
Alas, no, cilgwyn. I don't have a subscription... I hope to see it in the HBS Newsletter in due course.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 05, 2013, 05:03:43 AM
Link....going.....going.....GONE!!

Johan! A link to a scan of the review,if you want to read it. I'll remove it then. You may need a microscope,of course! I hope the link works!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 05, 2013, 05:08:22 AM
Many thanks, cilgwyn! The link works. I see the review is by Richard Whitehouse. I know him, he's a passionate Brianite. I do hope, though, this new piece show more stylistic discipline than some of the other things he has written...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 05, 2013, 05:16:34 AM
He seems to prefer the 'Carnival' in the old Hull Youth SO performance,I notice.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 05, 2013, 05:18:46 AM
Yes. I was struck by that, too. And his positive mention of the LSSO performance of No. 22. Overall, Richard's experiences tally with mine.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on June 05, 2013, 06:11:39 AM
You will indeed, Johan! But yours will be there first...

The BBC Radio website shows nothing Brianic for Friday June 7th, or indeed anything else up to the middle of next week ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/programmes/schedules/this_week
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/programmes/schedules/2013/w24
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 05, 2013, 06:14:27 AM
I'm going to write my review for the HBS in the weekend (I think), Martyn. Still mulling it over internally.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on June 05, 2013, 11:33:37 AM
Sorry all,
I seem to have lost the plot. It's not there this time.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 05, 2013, 01:43:27 PM
"Good news for me, though: I just received 1200 Classical Points (which buys you music!) from ClassicsOnline for writing one of the best Customer Reviews of the last two weeks. I wrote one (under my other name Jezetha) about the new Naxos CD."

Bother, now I can't win it for mine (see under the disk, I wrote it under my real name (John Leonard))

One thing I've noticed about that site is they never post negative reviews, mine have only appeared if they are positive, and sometimes my reviews have appeared, but qualifications have been removed.

On another topic, seems a bit measely for the BBC only to play one symphony by Brian in a whole month of British music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 05, 2013, 01:46:54 PM
Ps congratulations Johan, don't want to be one of those dissatisfied Brianites.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 05, 2013, 01:50:45 PM
Ha, calyptorhynchus! Thanks! I read your review under the name 'jleonard'... I thought 'I know him, but who was it again?' You have helped me out of my misery... If I hadn't written my review earlier, you might very well have won those points.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 06, 2013, 04:03:21 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on June 05, 2013, 11:33:37 AM
Sorry all,
I seem to have lost the plot. It's not there this time.
The Brian jinx strikes again! ??? :o :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 08, 2013, 03:54:59 PM
I'm not normally one for historical 'what ifs', but today I was thinking this: suppose in the 60s someone (Robert Simpson) had managed for the Gothic to be recorded by Jasha Horenstein. I've been listening to some Horenstein recordings recently, and I have confirmed in my own mind his reputation for producing more compelling versions of well known symphonies by his ability to see the work as a whole and set tempi to produce this effect of wholeness (I've been listening to his Nielsen 5th, Mahler 3 and 9, and Bruckner 5). I'm not saying that the Boult performance of the Gothic in 1966 was not compelling, but if Horenstein had conducted a performance and it had been released I'm sure it would have been that much more compelling and resulted in more recognition and recordings for HB, even before his death.

Next up, what if red wine didn't contain alcohol (I'd drink gallons of it).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 08, 2013, 04:21:40 PM
Well, you know that Robert Matthew-Walker says that Bernstein considered doing the Gothic. A very busy schedule prevented it (he was booked years ahead), apart from the fact that he would have had to persuade concert programmers to mount this mad work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 09, 2013, 12:10:50 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 08, 2013, 03:54:59 PM
I'm not normally one for historical 'what ifs', but today I was thinking this: suppose in the 60s someone (Robert Simpson) had managed for the Gothic to be recorded by Jasha Horenstein. I've been listening to some Horenstein recordings recently, and I have confirmed in my own mind his reputation for producing more compelling versions of well known symphonies by his ability to see the work as a whole and set tempi to produce this effect of wholeness (I've been listening to his Nielsen 5th, Mahler 3 and 9, and Bruckner 5). I'm not saying that the Boult performance of the Gothic in 1966 was not compelling, but if Horenstein had conducted a performance and it had been released I'm sure it would have been that much more compelling and resulted in more recognition and recordings for HB, even before his death.

Next up, what if red wine didn't contain alcohol (I'd drink gallons of it).
Horenstein eh? Following his early VOX records (technically dreadful but musically interesting) he was pretty much ignored by the record companies. John Goldsmith, MD of the Leicestershire based Unicorn records (they were in Markfield I think) was an admirer and set about putting a few of his performances onto LP. I also like his work. It's cool, detached and clear. The Unicorn Mahler 1 is excellent as is Nielsen 5 (despite the side drum coming in a bar early and then starting again). His Simpson 3 was the LP that introduced me to the wonderful music of Bob Simpson. Many of the records were with the LSO so Goldsmith must have had some good persuasive powers. Of course the Goldsmith/Leicestershire/Unicorn link did lead to the Brian 10/21 in 1972. I agree that a Unicorn Gothic available as a product on vinyl would have had a bigger impact than the Boult performance. Alas, we will never know if Jascha would have been up for it. The costs to Unicorn would have been a major issue - the Brian 10/21 only got off the ground because the orchestra was free with no rehearsal or session costs.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on June 09, 2013, 12:46:24 AM
Although the Brisbane and Proms performances of The Gothic were major achievements, I still think that HB's reputation suffers from symphonies 1 to 4: huge, slightly mad pieces all of them.

My own symphonic "hit list" has always remained as follows: 6, 8, 10 and 16. Of these, 6 and 10 are probably more accessible to the average listener.

If any of these four could get "Proms" exposure, it might finally puncture the composer's image of being a writer of gargantuan and near-unperformable works.

Out of all of them, I'd push for No. 6. So original and gripping, and oh, that tune!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 09, 2013, 01:58:27 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on June 09, 2013, 12:46:24 AM
Although the Brisbane and Proms performances of The Gothic were major achievements, I still think that HB's reputation suffers from symphonies 1 to 4: huge, slightly mad pieces all of them.

My own symphonic "hit list" has always remained as follows: 6, 8, 10 and 16. Of these, 6 and 10 are probably more accessible to the average listener.

If any of these four could get "Proms" exposure, it might finally puncture the composer's image of being a writer of gargantuan and near-unperformable works.

Out of all of them, I'd push for No. 6. So original and gripping, and oh, that tune!
I don't think it's the first four symphonies that are the problem. Most regular punters won't know 2, 3 and 4. It's a problem with the Gothic and its reputation about being massive and clumsy with everything including the kitchen sink thrown at it. The overwhelming perception is that of a madman who wrote huge, impractical beasts. I don't see how that damage can be undone unless the Proms were willing to put some of his more sensible pieces in front of the public. Maybe a couple of the suites or symphs 3, 10 and 22. I don't think symph 3 would put anyone off either. It has a tuneful appeal to it. Maybe too much damage has been done. I personally don't understand why, for example, the Gothic has such huge orchestral forces. When you play back the Proms performance you don't think "blimey, this is two orchestras combined". Unless you are told you simply wouldn't know. Mahler 2 sounds more massive in terms of string sonority. This is where I think Brian was slightly bonkers. The combined string sonority produced by those two BBC orchestras that night still didn't have the opulence of a truly world class orchestra such as the Vienna Phil or the Berlin Phil. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard the BPO live having been bought up on the British regionals such as the Halle and the CBSO. Chalk and cheese. Does one conclude that a quality string section is actually all you need and that doubling it up is a folly? Answers on a postcard please  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 09, 2013, 04:41:40 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on June 09, 2013, 12:46:24 AM
Although the Brisbane and Proms performances of The Gothic were major achievements, I still think that HB's reputation suffers from symphonies 1 to 4: huge, slightly mad pieces all of them.

My own symphonic "hit list" has always remained as follows: 6, 8, 10 and 16. Of these, 6 and 10 are probably more accessible to the average listener.

If any of these four could get "Proms" exposure, it might finally puncture the composer's image of being a writer of gargantuan and near-unperformable works.

Out of all of them, I'd push for No. 6. So original and gripping, and oh, that tune!

I agree with what you say in the main. I think Brian kind of had his career backwards, he had his early orchestral pieces, then fell into neglect. He started composing the the Gothic, I think, because he felt it would be his last work and lasting achievement (he suffered from poor health all his life and, like a lot of artistic types, was a bit of a hypochondriac). It was only after he wrote his 'last work' that he kicked off his symphonic career.

Totally agree about exposure of his later symphonies, no.15 at a Last Night of the Proms, as MM suggests. Any of the other symphonies anywhere in the concert world.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2013, 11:48:40 AM
The Hurwitzer (Classics Today) has reviewed more Brian. This time the Brian/Cooke Lyrita CD. The 10/10 review is short but sweet, with the paragraph on Brian ending:

"Both [Symphonies 6 & 16] are superb works, and these are fabulous performances. Indeed, this is the finest disc of Brian symphonies ever made[...]a mandatory acquisition for fans of 20th century British music."

I can't link to the full review because it's behind a paywall.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 10, 2013, 12:48:20 PM
Thanks, Sarge! 'Finest disc of Brian symphonies ever made'... Perhaps helped by the fact that both works are among the best things he ever wrote.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on June 10, 2013, 01:23:17 PM
Yes indeed! 6 and 16 (together with, IMHO, 8 and 10) are amongst his finest.

6 is perhaps THE Brian symphony to put before the general music-lover. A quite remarkable work which incorporates Celtic "atmosphere" and mystery, gorgeous lyricism and martial violence. The "big tune" at its heart is a major selling point.

16 is another masterpiece but not as immediately accessible because of its compression of ideas. Yet I find it has a compelling sense of direction sometimes lacking in other, more oddball HB scores. And the coda is, for me, the most convincingly triumphant ending the composer ever penned.

These two works, in this Lyrita recording, sound polished and - above all - inherently RIGHT - one gets the impression of a composer in complete control of both his vision and the technical means with which to project it.

Number 6 at the Proms - that's a worthy goal for the HB Society.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 10, 2013, 01:37:20 PM
Number 6 at the Proms... Amen to that!


The ending of 16 is, indeed, colossal.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on June 10, 2013, 02:10:54 PM
Malcolm MacDonald intriguingly heard 16 as a depiction of evolutionary processes - life itself emerging out of the dust of a lifeless universe.

I hear this too, and the ending might almost be heard as the indomitable will of life to survive in a hostile cosmos. Brian was apparently reading Herodotus' account of the Battle of Thermopylae while composing 16, and what was Thermopylae? A battle between a few hundred Greeks and a half-million Persians - a battle against impossible odds.

So in listening to 16 I can hear it on three levels:

- a symphonic poem about the Greeks surviving long odds against the Persians
- a symphony depicting life surviving long odds against the universe
- a symphony depicting Brian's own artistic survival against the long odds of neglect and indifference, and his personal survival against depression and poverty.

The coda of 16 always sounds like a shout of sheer defiance - "bring it on, you bastards, you can't beat me!"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 10, 2013, 02:15:50 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on June 10, 2013, 02:10:54 PMThe coda of 16 always sounds like a shout of sheer defiance - "bring it on, you bastards, you can't beat me!"


Yes. And it has sustained me in my own artistic career. It is simply one of the most tremendous conclusions ever. It is terrifying and inspiring at the same time. I hear a rocket launch, 'We have liftoff!'. But also suffering. The first time I heard it, age 19/20, I said 'It's Auschwitz and the Universe'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 10, 2013, 03:19:00 PM
I love the drive to towards the conclusion at the end of 16 too. What seems particularly profound about it is that it isn't the emergence of some heroic theme a la Romanticism, its an unformed, but actual, will to prevail, which happens in the end, the music driving through chaotic dissonance to arrive at the hair-raising conclusion, as in the famous Robert Simpson quote about one of the HB symphonies, "it's not about heroism, it's simply heroic".
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 10, 2013, 03:25:42 PM
I suddenly remember another association I have - a clenched fist, delivering an almighty punch (that final chord).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 10, 2013, 11:33:23 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 10, 2013, 03:25:42 PM
I suddenly remember another association I have - a clenched fist, delivering an almighty punch (that final chord).
Was this a punch up in Dam Square during your youth  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 22, 2013, 03:56:39 AM
I've seen the proofs of the Heritage LSSO double CD set. Very nice 12 page booklet. Looking forward to the release.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on June 22, 2013, 01:16:27 PM
Simon Heffer, the Daily Mail journalist, played Brian's Legend this afternoon on BBC R3. He was quite enamoured of it, though a bit wary of the symphonies. He thought that Brian was an important British composer.

Does his opinion count though? :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 22, 2013, 01:19:06 PM
I don't think he'll make many converts. But - he likes Brian (in small doses), and that's better than nothing!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 22, 2013, 04:18:04 PM
Brian's Legend, funny how people latch on to atypical works of composers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2013, 01:31:47 PM
This thread has slipped to the second page. That simply won't do. Bump  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 09, 2013, 02:04:00 PM
Thanks for the intervention, Sarge! Any new experiences with those noisy symphonies on the Naxos CD?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2013, 02:15:07 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 09, 2013, 02:04:00 PM
Thanks for the intervention, Sarge! Any new experiences with those noisy symphonies on the Naxos CD?

I've gotten used the noise  ;)  Definitely among my favorite Brian recordings now.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 09, 2013, 02:18:30 PM
Glad to hear it! It really is to be hoped Alexander Walker may try his hand at some other late symphonies, like 27 and 28.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 19, 2013, 01:09:40 AM
On its way in early August:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1014120_516677168386932_490933713_n.jpg
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2013, 01:59:47 AM
Nice!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on July 19, 2013, 02:22:00 AM
Very nice!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 19, 2013, 03:56:41 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on July 19, 2013, 02:22:00 AM
Very nice!
Martyn - any stocks arrived as yet?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: pencils on July 19, 2013, 04:26:57 AM
Please forgive me for not trawling through the 285 pages of posts to find the answer to this: would someone be willing to recommend a few starting points for Brian that I can use as an entry point? I am avoiding the Gothic for now, as I have found it hard work in the past. I will revisit it once I have prodded some other symphonies.

I have a fair few symphonies, but need the heads up as to where I should begin with finally getting to grips with the guy.

Thanks in advance  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 19, 2013, 04:41:25 AM
Quote from: pencils on July 19, 2013, 04:26:57 AMwould someone be willing to recommend a few starting points for Brian that I can use as an entry point?


It seems to me 6, 8 and 16 are good jumping off points.   

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/Brian78931.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2010/brian616cooke3.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 19, 2013, 04:49:36 AM
Quote from: pencils on July 19, 2013, 04:26:57 AM
Please forgive me for not trawling through the 285 pages of posts to find the answer to this: would someone be willing to recommend a few starting points for Brian that I can use as an entry point? I am avoiding the Gothic for now, as I have found it hard work in the past. I will revisit it once I have prodded some other symphonies.

I have a fair few symphonies, but need the heads up as to where I should begin with finally getting to grips with the guy.

Thanks in advance  :)
You could do worse than the new Heritage double, due for release very soon - see my link a couple on entries back. Two fine symphonies (10/22), a tuneful suite, an Elgarian choral work and the only version of 21 thrown in for good measure..
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2013, 05:14:05 AM
Adding these...


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2013, 05:15:22 AM
And this one...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 19, 2013, 06:24:18 AM
Quote from: pencils on July 19, 2013, 04:26:57 AM
Please forgive me for not trawling through the 285 pages of posts to find the answer to this: would someone be willing to recommend a few starting points for Brian that I can use as an entry point? I am avoiding the Gothic for now, as I have found it hard work in the past. I will revisit it once I have prodded some other symphonies.

I have a fair few symphonies, but need the heads up as to where I should begin with finally getting to grips with the guy.

Thanks in advance  :)
I'd concur with all these recommendations. Or,you could hold out for the new Heritage 2cd set recommended by John. These superb,still unsurpassed performances introduced many people to Brian's output,post gothic. They also have that pioneering spirit that makes first recordings of music so special. I do like the fact that they have put the symphonies 10 & 21 together,as they were on the original release (except you turned over of course!).
Of course,there are all the Havergal Brian music files over at the Art Music Forum. These are from off air broadcasts,you have to register, and I think you'd be better of trying one of these cds first.
If I had to pick two I'd suggest the Dutton cd of No10 (etc) or the Lyrita cd of 6 & 16. Or wait for the Heitage 2cd set. And don't be put off by the fact that they are old recordings & performed by a schools orchestra. The LSSO were not your average school band!! Their tenth IS (to paraphrase Tina Turner! ??? ;D) quite simply the best and better than all the.......well,you know what I mean!! :( ;D (And incidentally,give me Millie Jackson,Gladys Knight or Aretha Franklin over Tina Turner,any day!!)

I'm with you on the Gothic,incidentally. Not that I dislike it;it's an extraordinary achievement. I just think his later music is more............I don't know!! ???  I just prefer it!! ;D

My own personal favourite is the third. A truly fascinating work. There is nothing else like it in the whole of English music. If it wasn't by Brian I think it would be regarded very highly by the musical establishment. Far more interesting and astonishing than that overrated Turangalila symphony. That ondes martenon!! Oooooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeeooooooooup!! ??? Ouch! My ears!! ??? ??? :(
Unfortunately,the Hyperion/Helios cd isn't ideal! But the Pope recording is marvellous & can be found at the AMF and Klassic Haus as "cheap as chips" as John would say!
I also love the Second Symphony. Very nocturnal and brooding. But the Naxos performance is terrible! Again,there is an earlier broadcast performance by Mackerras of superior quality,which can be found elsewhere.
But I would go for the other recommendations first!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: pencils on July 19, 2013, 11:33:34 AM
Cheers, guys. I have the EMI Mackerras, and the Adrian Leaper 17 & 32 from Marco Polo, but the rest of my collection is taken from the AMF downloads and various dirty Youtube rips.

I shall endeavour to restart my poking of Brian. I could never understand why he is so out of vogue with the establishment... ?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: pencils on July 19, 2013, 02:46:26 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 19, 2013, 06:24:18 AM

My own personal favourite is the third. A truly fascinating work. There is nothing else like it in the whole of English music. If it wasn't by Brian I think it would be regarded very highly by the musical establishment.

Symphony 3. Great piece - the 3rd mvmt is fantastic!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 19, 2013, 03:54:26 PM
I love the photo on the Heritage CDs front cover, Robert Simpson and HB and some modernistic flats.

Looking forward to it.

(Ps sitting on a beach in Bali writing this, about to go snorkelling. Wish you were all here).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 19, 2013, 10:57:07 PM
Happy snorkelling!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on July 20, 2013, 01:51:36 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 19, 2013, 03:54:26 PM
(Ps sitting on a beach in Bali writing this, about to go snorkelling. Wish you were all here).

While on Bali you should listen to Colin McPhee and some of his compositions from his time on Bali, e.g. Tabuh-tabuhan and the Second Symphony.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 20, 2013, 03:23:30 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 19, 2013, 03:54:26 PM
I love the photo on the Heritage CDs front cover, Robert Simpson and HB and some modernistic flats.

Looking forward to it.

(Ps sitting on a beach in Bali writing this, about to go snorkelling. Wish you were all here).
I certainly wish I was there!! :( ;D
It is a very nice photo. Excellent choice.
Incidentally,did he often dress like that,or just for special occasions? Very dapper! No cardi's! My 81 year old father has a few. I don't think I'll start wearing them just yet!

Colin McPhee. I downloaded his second symphony a while back. About time I tried listening to it!
Alternatively,just listen to those waves breaking on the shore.
No,pneumatic drills or power tools going here today (so far) so it could be worse! Although maybe I'll get my own pneumatic drill out later and do a bit of drilling! It's a great hobby!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on July 21, 2013, 12:15:49 AM
Good to see the forthcoming reissue by the LSSO.

Their version of the Tenth is, IMHO, better than the new Brabbins recording. There is a greater atmosphere of mystery and loneliness - especially at the end with its "astounding soft brass chord" (Robert Simpson) and haunting violin. I always hear this as the lonely soul of Brian - or Mankind - singing out against the "blind pitiless indifference" (Richard Dawkins) of the universe.

The LSSO's rendering of the Tenth's central "storm" is also the best available; the orchestral 'lightning flashes' sound really vicious! Brabbins, here, sounds a bit lumbering and turgid to my ears.

So this for me is a top recommendation, together with the Lyrita Symphony 6 - possibly the best introductory symphony for the uninitiated, given its gorgeous lyricism.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 22, 2013, 04:36:20 AM
I've just been playing the Heritage double. Very impressed. The recordings have never sounded better. Highly recommended.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 22, 2013, 04:38:03 AM
How does the Yankee Wizard compare?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 22, 2013, 05:25:45 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 22, 2013, 04:38:03 AM
How does the Yankee Wizard compare?
Curt's sound is still warmer but the master tapes yield more detail and impact. Suite 5 sounds like Decca Phase Four!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 22, 2013, 06:16:38 AM
Sounds very promising! (Your review for Musicweb can now be finished...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 22, 2013, 06:53:16 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 22, 2013, 06:16:38 AM
Sounds very promising! (Your review for Musicweb can now be finished...)
The HBS has copies in stock for sale now. Just contact Martyn Becker. Here is my review for Musicweb, sent to Rob Barnett a few minutes ago:

Havergal BRIAN (1876-1972)
The First Commercial Recordings
Symphony No.10* [18:07]; Symphony No.21 [29:08]; Symphony No.22 (Symphonia Brevis)** [9:10]; Psalm 23** [15:47]; English Suite No.5 (Rustic Scenes) [22:28]
Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra conducted by
James Loughran*, Laszlo Heltay** and Eric Pinkett
with Paul Taylor (tenor) and the Brighton Festival Chorus (Psalm 23).
rec. 18-19 July 1972 and June 1974, De Montfort Hall, Leicester; Hove Town Hall, 10 April 1974.
HERITAGE HTGDC 256/7 2 CDs [95:02]

This Heritage release, due to be launched in September, restores to the catalogue the first commercial recordings ever made of Havergal Brian's music and for its historic significance alone the 2 CD set deserves a warm welcome. Symphonies 10 and 21 were recorded by Unicorn in 1972 and the coupling was available on vinyl and then briefly on a rather dry sounding CD reissue some years later. The works on the second CD were recorded by CBS in 1974 but have not been reissued since the original CBS Classics LP release in 1975. The Heritage audio engineers have used the original masters as a starting point to produce this reissue.

I urge potential listeners not to be put off by the fact that the musicians involved are amateurs. "Schools orchestra" - the very term can send a shiver down the spine. It conjures up thin, painful strings and crude, out of tune playing. Well, to quickly put that concern to bed, the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra made commercial LPs for the Pye and Argo labels under the direction of Tippett, Bliss and Previn a few years before these Brian sessions took place. In the 1970s the orchestra's patron and regular conductor, Sir Michael Tippett, compared it favourably to the National Youth Orchestra. Despite occasional lapses of intonation and a few bars where the youngsters are stretched close to their limits their playing is really quite remarkable in terms of its musicality, technical assurance and poise.

As far as repertoire is concerned I can think of no better introduction to the varied sound world of Havergal Brian than the music that is on offer here. We have two short but magnificent symphonies (10 and 22), an attractive choral work and a quirkily original orchestral suite. Thrown in for good measure is the only currently available recording of the very approachable Symphony No.21. 

Many sceptics have an entrenched view of Brian as being a self-taught amateur, big on ideas but small on content and ability. He's the man who produced music with so many lines of confusing counterpoint that all you end up hearing is an opaque, grey, orchestral mush. He also specialised in composing massive, impractical scores with the occasional kitchen sink thrown in for good measure. Well, some of these observations may contain elements of truth but none of them apply to any of the works featured here. I don't sit in the camp that claims that Brian is a great composer but I object to him being dismissed out of hand because of unfounded misconceptions and generalisations. His huge output was admittedly inconsistent but at his best he has something to say and he's worth hearing. He's been treated rather shoddily over the years by the musical establishment (whoever they may be) and he deserves more respect and credit for his achievements. There's some fabulous, uplifting music to be heard on this Heritage set. Be warned - some of it can become addictive!

Symphony No.10 is permanently engraved on my mind and has been since encountering it on the original Unicorn LP. It opens with a gripping march and fragments of this opening theme form the basis of everything else that follows. The music is often meditative in nature but there's always an underlying menace about it. There are passages of utter stillness that catch the ear. One such passage (great pianissimo playing from the orchestra) eventually erupts into a furious storm which then quickly subsides. The changes of mood and pace are what make this symphony so special. A violin solo takes us into the world of English pastoral music but Brian then engulfs the mood of serenity and calm with one final cataclysmic upheaval before the music quietens down again. The composer then delivers the most astonishing and hair-raising of endings: the violin returns, the mood becomes dark, lonely and introspective and the work finishes with a question mark hanging over it. This is a tremendous symphony and the inspired performance is as good as you could reasonably expect from a youth orchestra. Some of the playing is jaw-dropping in its brilliance. The sense of danger and discovery is tangible. Martyn Brabbins has recently recorded the 10th for Dutton but despite the higher level of orchestral execution his version seems to lack the magic and atmosphere conjured up by Loughran in Leicester. Incidentally, you can sample the 10th symphony and watch extracts from the LSSO recording session on Youtube at this link: http://youtu.be/9f7_wiFeDIU

Brian is accused of composing mammoth, overblown impractical works but this can be brushed aside by listening to Symphony No.22, running as it does for just over 9 minutes. Written in 1964/65 when he was in his 80s, the general mood is one of menace and impending doom. Had it been written in the late 1930s it could be argued that it was the composer's reaction to the imminent outbreak of war. The march rhythms, so typical of Brian, conjure up visions of the military and the gathering of dark clouds. Moments of repose are regularly brought crashing down and the ending is magical - it's another question mark "what next?" The work has less immediate appeal than the 10th but it's one of those pieces that can quickly get under your skin. An awful lot happens in its highly compressed timespan. Heltay's performance is superb and the LSSO rises to the challenge. The recent Naxos version by Alexander Walker has superior orchestral playing but there's not much in it and the LSSO is in no way totally outclassed. Walker also adds an irritating pause between the two movements thus destroying the continuity of the symphony and he totally misses the mood of foreboding at the very end. Laszlo Heltay generates more atmosphere and bite and in truth the thinner string tone of the LSSO allows the listener to hear more inner detail compared to the luxuriant, smooth sounds generated by the Russian forces on Naxos. The LSSO versions of 10 and 22 are still arguably the ones to go for.

Symphony No.21 is good natured and pastoral in mood. It's less angry than many of Brian's pieces and there's something very genial about it. The heart of the symphony is the beautiful slow movement which in turns can be elegiac and then grave with sudden outbursts of brass sonorities underpinning the string-laden texture. This music is a nod in the direction of Vaughan Williams and the string section copes very well with the exposed, legato writing it is asked to deliver. The ensuing scherzo is mercurial and playful, allowing the orchestra to display its virtuoso capabilities to the full with its scampering woodwinds and imposing horns. The finale has passages of Brianesque grimness and anti-romanticism about it but there are also some light, melodious interludes (lovely work by the flautist). The momentary lapse in string ensemble at the very beginning should have been given a retake but no matter - Eric Pinkett's realisation of the work is well worth hearing. Towards the end he propels the music forward and in his hands the symphony comes to a glowing, optimistic close.

The orchestra has a whale of a time in the English Suite No.5. This is almost light music but not quite. Brian continually adds some quite bizarre twists and turns into the fabric and the music isn't always as straight forward as it would appear to be from the titles he has given to the four movements. The opening Trotting to Market bounces along quite nicely but then we keep encountering pauses and gear changes. Do the horses keep stopping for a break or do the cart wheels keep falling off? Either way it's very congenial, as is the closing movement, Village Revels, with its high spirits, attractive folk dance tune and blazing final bars. The two central movements are the most satisfying and original. The Restless Stream is quite remarkable. Written for woodwind and percussion (with horns included at the very end) the music bubbles away but there is something quite uncomfortable and sinister lurking underneath the surface. This short intermezzo could have been penned by Nielsen in one of his stranger moods. The highlight of the suite is the stunning Reverie scored for strings alone. Running for the best part of 10 minutes this dark elegy is English to the core but it treads a different path to the likes of Vaughan Williams and Elgar. This is Brian at his most inspired. This is intensely grave and searchingly tragic music, expertly scored and beautifully played by the LSSO string section.

Brian's Psalm 23 has its foundations firmly rooted in the English choral tradition. Despite being tuneful, confident and uplifting the work seems to be missing all the usual Brian fingerprints of originality. It's structurally sound and enjoyable to listen to but it's hard to make any huge claims for it. The Brighton Festival Chorus and tenor soloist Paul Taylor sing confidently throughout but the orchestra, by its own superlative standards, sounds slightly less secure than usual. Some entries are tentative and the flute and oboe intonation could have been improved. Maybe the players didn't quite have the notes under their fingers. However, it's still a good performance. Heltay captures the spirit of the work and the orchestra and choir clearly understand and enjoy its idiom.

So now to the quality of the CD transfers. The Unicorn 10/21 coupling taped at De Montfort Hall was always a good recording on vinyl but rather less appealing when it was reissued on CD. The Heritage transfer is excellent with a natural balance, clarity, warmth and good clean bass. The off stage trumpet and horn solos both sound as if they come from another world and all the climaxes have tremendous presence and bite. This is analogue sound at its finest. The CBS LP was never very easy to enjoy with its scrawny, fizzy strings and over-bright percussion. The Heritage transfer is a miraculous improvement. Symphony 22 and Psalm 23, although recorded in Hove Town Hall, sound very similar in quality to the Unicorn De Montfort Hall sessions. The chorus in Psalm 23 is clean and imposing with wonderfully clear diction. The ruinous end of side distortion encountered on the LP is absent, thus giving the climaxes plenty of air. The engineering in English Suite No.5, supervised by a different producer, is more "Phase Four" in its approach. Everything is very closely recorded and there are a few extraneous noises to be heard (bow taps and the like). However, there's no doubting the physical impact of the music making - glorious horns, highly detailed woodwind and clear percussion. The string tone is bright and sweet and the cellos and basses are imposingly realistic.     
In summary, this set could convert some new listeners to Brian's music. The playing is never less than good and it is often brilliant. This should be in the collection of anyone even remotely interested in British music. Bravo!!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2013, 07:31:14 AM
Excellent review, John. I'm sold  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 22, 2013, 07:32:35 AM
Yes, it's an excellent and persuasive piece of writing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 22, 2013, 09:07:03 AM
For some reason, after several days of trauma counseling post air disaster, I was tired, exhausted, strained, with little sleep for almost a week, as I dragged myself to my hotel room. Instead of going to sleep, I suddenly had a strange urge to listen to Brian Symphony #10, even though I remember nothing of it, as I had downloaded it from a link someone posted here years ago.

The music suddenly struck me. Wow! Just the right music for the time and I do not know why.

Now, thanks to vandermolen, I got this quote, from no less an authority than Harold Truscott, his analysis of the work: "This music is often fiercer in accent than anything in the previous symphonies, but the psychological storm that shapes it gives way at length to a mysterious sense of victory, grim and hard-won, but enduring."

That's exact where I was in life. Perfect. No wonder I loved it so much!


Now, the Brian 10 is one of my favorite symphonies, because it tells a story that was and is part of my life, my experience, an experience that is difficult to describe in words, but so perfectly in music.


Just ordered a CD of it today.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 22, 2013, 09:10:58 AM
Beautiful! Yes, that's what Brian can do for you - inspire, invigorate. His heroism isn't superficial.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 22, 2013, 09:19:47 AM
Quote from: springrite on July 22, 2013, 09:07:03 AM
For some reason, after several days of trauma counseling post air disaster, I was tired, exhausted, strained, with little sleep for almost a week, as I dragged myself to my hotel room. Instead of going to sleep, I suddenly had a strange urge to listen to Brian Symphony #10, even though I remember nothing of it, as I had downloaded it from a link someone posted here years ago.

The music suddenly struck me. Wow! Just the right music for the time and I do not know why.

Now, thanks to vandermolen, I got this quote, from no less an authority than Harold Truscott, his analysis of the work: "This music is often fiercer in accent than anything in the previous symphonies, but the psychological storm that shapes it gives way at length to a mysterious sense of victory, grim and hard-won, but enduring."

That's exact where I was in life. Perfect. No wonder I loved it so much!


Now, the Brian 10 is one of my favorite symphonies, because it tells a story that was and is part of my life, my experience, an experience that is difficult to describe in words, but so perfectly in music.


Just ordered a CD of it today.
Get the new transfer of the LSSO version. See my review above. Stunning music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 22, 2013, 01:55:01 PM
Yes, excellent review and exciting news. I have those old CBS and Unicorn LPs and the briefly available Unicorn CD with symphonies 10 and 21. Nos 8-10 are thought provoking, eloquent and memorable works. I see that Cameo Classics have reissued the fine Hull City Youth Orchestra recording of Bantock's 'Hebridean Symphony' which had an equally powerful effect on my youthful self.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 22, 2013, 03:05:35 PM
It's a great project and thanks to John for making it possible by pursuing the whereabouts of the masters.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 27, 2013, 09:01:11 AM
Does anyone on here have an undamaged LP of the Cameo/Peter Hill Brian piano music? The master is lost but myself and Curt Timmons are now potentially trying to make a digital transfer. Thanks!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 27, 2013, 09:07:41 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on July 27, 2013, 09:01:11 AM
Does anyone on here have an undamaged LP of the Cameo/Peter Hill Brian piano music? The master is lost but myself and Curt Timmons are now potentially trying to make a digital transfer. Thanks!!

I wish I had it. Hope you find one!

Meanwhile, this recording of the Brian piano music is going for $2,000:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0000049T7/ref=sr_1_4_up_1_main_olp?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1374944720&sr=1-4&condition=used
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 27, 2013, 09:13:14 AM
Quote from: springrite on July 27, 2013, 09:07:41 AM
I wish I had it. Hope you find one!

Meanwhile, this recording of the Brian piano music is going for $2,000:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0000049T7/ref=sr_1_4_up_1_main_olp?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1374944720&sr=1-4&condition=used
They are kidding aren't they? My speakers cost me half of this!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on July 29, 2013, 12:04:56 AM
Clearly something going on. Not only is it shipped both from the UK and from Arizona, delivery can take from 7 days to more than 600 years!

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 29, 2013, 12:36:56 AM
Fingers crossed but by 5.00pm tonight I should be the proud owner of the Cameo Classics/Peter Hill LP for the sole purpose of CD transfer. The current official Cameo transfer isn't good. The master tape is lost and the vinyl copy used for this transfer is noisy. I'm working with Cameo's owner, David Kent-Watson and Curt Timmons to see if we can come up with something better. If the LP is in good nick then the rest is relatively straight forward. I've never heard this LP so I have no idea what to expect. If this Brian project is a success there are also three other Cameos to have a crack at: Young:Hunting of the Snark (LSSO), East-West Encounters (Dreamtiger) and Music for a Royal Occasion(St. Paul's).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 29, 2013, 12:43:09 AM
Heritage review now live on Musicweb. Let's hope it encourages some sales.
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/July13/Brian_sys_HTGCD256.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 29, 2013, 06:37:07 AM
As John emphasised in his review;potential purchasers need to be aware that the LSSO performances are not just another scratchy,out of tune schools orchestra. I hate the thought of someone seeing this 2cd set & thinking,'Oh dear,I had to listen to this c*** in school (along with the dreaded Gilbert & Sullivan operettas)!' And they decide to give it a miss! I for one,along with John,was actually quite chuffed,in a way,that the LSSO performance was,in many ways,superior to the Brabbins recording. But it sometimes,in fact,often works that way. The old emi performance of Stanford's third symphony v the Chandos recording,for example. And then there are the wonderful recordings of Brian,Parry & Foulds conducted by Leopold Hager. Not a top rated orchestra or conductor,but they still bear comparison with the new ones made for Dutton,Chandos & Warner. And some of them are actually imho more characterful & have more atmosphere.
The astonishing thing about the recordings on the forthcoming 2cd release is the fact that these are performances by a schools orchestra,not a professional orchestra. That's what makes them really stand out!
As to the Hull Youth SO. There's no comparison,but they tried their best (we can't all be musical gods) gave us Brianites something to intrigue us back in the late 70s/early 80s & I'm glad,in a way,that their recordings are being reissued,but............unlike the forthcoming LSSO recordings I'm afraid I will NOT be placing an order!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 29, 2013, 08:12:42 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on July 29, 2013, 12:36:56 AM
Fingers crossed but by 5.00pm tonight I should be the proud owner of the Cameo Classics/Peter Hill LP for the sole purpose of CD transfer. The current official Cameo transfer isn't good. The master tape is lost and the vinyl copy used for this transfer is noisy. I'm working with Cameo's owner, David Kent-Watson and Curt Timmons to see if we can come up with something better. If the LP is in good nick then the rest is relatively straight forward. I've never heard this LP so I have no idea what to expect. If this Brian project is a success there are also three other Cameos to have a crack at: Young:Hunting of the Snark (LSSO), East-West Encounters (Dreamtiger) and Music for a Royal Occasion(St. Paul's).
It's in the bag. I won the LP on Ebay. Transfer to follow once it arrives.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 29, 2013, 12:30:21 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 29, 2013, 06:37:07 AM
As John emphasised in his review;potential purchasers need to be aware that the LSSO performances are not just another scratchy,out of tune schools orchestra. I hate the thought of someone seeing this 2cd set & thinking,'Oh dear,I had to listen to this c*** in school (along with the dreaded Gilbert & Sullivan operettas)!' And they decide to give it a miss! I for one,along with John,was actually quite chuffed,in a way,that the LSSO performance was,in many ways,superior to the Brabbins recording. But it sometimes,in fact,often works that way. The old emi performance of Stanford's third symphony v the Chandos recording,for example. And then there are the wonderful recordings of Brian,Parry & Foulds conducted by Leopold Hager. Not a top rated orchestra or conductor,but they still bear comparison with the new ones made for Dutton,Chandos & Warner. And some of them are actually imho more characterful & have more atmosphere.
The astonishing thing about the recordings on the forthcoming 2cd release is the fact that these are performances by a schools orchestra,not a professional orchestra. That's what makes them really stand out!
As to the Hull Youth SO. There's no comparison,but they tried their best (we can't all be musical gods) gave us Brianites something to intrigue us back in the late 70s/early 80s & I'm glad,in a way,that their recordings are being reissued,but............unlike the forthcoming LSSO recordings I'm afraid I will NOT be placing an order!!
I've already spoken to Heritage. They can use parts of my review in their promotional stuff to tackle the schools orchestra bit.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 29, 2013, 01:37:02 PM
I thought I would post a bit more detail about the Cameo Classics saga. Aren't some coincidences in life rather strange? Last week I received an email from David Kent-Watson who owns Cameo Classics. He's the chap who recorded the Hull Youth Orchestra's Havergal Brian and Bantock LPs all those years ago. He found me via my LSSO website and asked if I had any LSSO recordings for inclusion in a 2 hour radio concert of music he is pulling together for BMR (British Music Radio). The LSSO link is that David recorded Douglas Young's Hunting of the Snark with them in the 1980s. Several emails and a telephone conversation later things rapidly progressed. The master of Snark is lost. Myself and Curt have restored it for our own personal use NOT as a product for sale via Klassic Haus.  This Snark CD restoration has been sent to David and he will use it for a Cameo reissue of the piece, assuming that he likes the quality (which is excellent, I hasten to add). He mentioned another lost master on the phone - Peter Hill's Brian LP - which is why I've bought a copy via Ebay. If this can be successfully transferred and restored the plan is to reissue the restoration as a new Cameo release. The HBS are enthusiastic about this. David's own efforts were not especially successful because his remaining vinyl copy was in poor condition. You can actually buy his transfer on the Cameo website at a reduced price but he admits that it isn't really up to scratch (no pun intended). Moving forward there are at least two more Cameo titles to try to save. David also has links with Lyrita - are there some gems out there that have no masters but could be saved via LPs? We don't know yet but it's all rather interesting. My reward for sending him 8 LSSO CDs and Curt's transfer of Hattoff's British Opera set? Simple. I asked for the Hull Brian/Bantock Hull sets in return. Here's the link to BMR:
http://www.britishmusicradio.net/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on July 29, 2013, 11:11:27 PM
Hi John, It's very pleasing that an LP I bought about 30 years ago is getting such good use. Well done.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 30, 2013, 12:37:44 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on July 29, 2013, 11:11:27 PM
Hi John, It's very pleasing that an LP I bought about 30 years ago is getting such good use. Well done.
Hey up, long time no hear. How are you?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 30, 2013, 12:39:47 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on July 29, 2013, 11:11:27 PM
Hi John, It's very pleasing that an LP I bought about 30 years ago is getting such good use. Well done.
By the way, you did get the fully restored Klassic Haus copy of your LP set didn't you? Just checking.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on July 30, 2013, 06:14:27 AM
Hi John, I'm fine, thanks I've just started a course of intraocular Lucentis injections producing a massive improvement in my eyesight and I've also not had much to say.
I missed the Klassic Haus copy, I shall look for it right now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 03, 2013, 09:03:41 AM
Good news. My Ebay copy of the Cameo Classics HB piano music arrived in the post today. It's a superb pressing and I've done the initial transfer work. It's already been sent to Curt Timmons. I think Curt's work will lead to a rather excellent "official" product available via Cameo in the coming weeks. I'm not very keen on the music.........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 06, 2013, 02:53:18 AM
Curt sent me the fully refurbished Cameo/Brian LP files overnight. I've just listened to the whole thing right through and I'm delighted to report that the transfer is a complete success. It offers a much more pleasant listening experience compared to some of the dry, boxy digital piano CDs that are being issued nowadays. The background noise is minimal even when played at a high volume, the piano sound is warm and spectacular without a trace of wow or flutter and the playing is technically very good. I will stop there otherwise I will start to get rude about the music. I haven't heard David Kent-Watson's LP transfer, currently on offer via his Cameo website but I know that he isn't very happy with it. All I can say is that I would fully endorse the new transfer if it were to be released as an official Cameo Classics CD. That is David's plan. I think the HBS will be delighted with the way this has turned out.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on August 06, 2013, 06:55:52 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 03, 2013, 09:03:41 AM
I'm not very keen on the music.........

It should at least sound better than the neighbor cutting the tree down, no?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 07, 2013, 02:03:03 AM
Quote from: springrite on August 06, 2013, 06:55:52 AM
It should at least sound better than the neighbor cutting the tree down, no?
It's a VERY close call :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 10, 2013, 01:51:27 AM
Sorry it isn't Brian related but I had to share this. 10 of the Classico/Bostock British music CDs can be bought, bundled in a box, for less than a tenner. I just ordered it. I think that Classico recorded 15 titles in total. I already have the Brian 23rd Psalm CD which isn't included in this box. There is also a brilliant Bostock/Nielsen cycle on the same label for the same price. Had this Nielsen set for ages - the Liverpool Phil are just magnificent. 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_sabc?url=search-alias%3Daps&pageMinusResults=1&suo=1376128562640#/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_28?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=british%20symphonic%20collection&sprefix=british+symphonic+collection%2Caps%2C225&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Abritish%20symphonic%20collection
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 07, 2013, 02:20:12 AM
From the Heritage Records website this morning:
http://www.heritage-records.com/classical-orchestral-cd-album-titles/havergal-brian-the-first-commercial-recordings
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on September 12, 2013, 08:14:24 AM
As there is still no sign of a commercial release of The Tigers (BBC, 1983) from Testament does anybody know if it has been delayed, and, if so, for any particular reason?

::)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 15, 2013, 05:01:43 AM
No answer did there come!!
Hopefully,in this instance,'no news is good news?!' :( :)
Good news about the Heritage release,though. Incidentally,i can't find any mention of it here,but interesting interviews with John,Mark Stone and the July-August edition of the HBS Newsletter (or a couple of pages from it?) can be read via the Havergal Brian section (Brian Sym 22,etc;click on link) at the KlassicHaus website. Apologies if everyone in the world knew this except me!! :( ;D
Incidentally,I didn't realise the LSSO had actually recorded Iannis Xenakis!!! ??? :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 15, 2013, 06:01:15 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 15, 2013, 05:01:43 AM
No answer did there come!!
Hopefully,in this instance,'no news is good news?!' :( :)
Good news about the Heritage release,though. Incidentally,i can't find any mention of it here,but interesting interviews with John,Mark Stone and the July-August edition of the HBS Newsletter (or a couple of pages from it?) can be read via the Havergal Brian section (Brian Sym 22,etc;click on link) at the KlassicHaus website. Apologies if everyone in the world knew this except me!! :( ;D
Incidentally,I didn't realise the LSSO had actually recorded Iannis Xenakis!!! ??? :o
Xenakis. Here it is. Jolly tuneful stuff:
http://youtu.be/qnubMTYVSwc
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 15, 2013, 06:25:15 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 15, 2013, 05:01:43 AM
No answer did there come!!
Hopefully,in this instance,'no news is good news?!' :( :)
Good news about the Heritage release,though. Incidentally,i can't find any mention of it here,but interesting interviews with John,Mark Stone and the July-August edition of the HBS Newsletter (or a couple of pages from it?) can be read via the Havergal Brian section (Brian Sym 22,etc;click on link) at the KlassicHaus website. Apologies if everyone in the world knew this except me!! :( ;D
Incidentally,I didn't realise the LSSO had actually recorded Iannis Xenakis!!! ??? :o
Here's the link to which you refer:
http://klassichaus.us/documents/HavergalBrianSocietyNL228.pdf
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 15, 2013, 06:36:18 AM
You might also enjoy reading this. I included it on the Klassic Haus website to accompany the 2 Brian LPs that have now been reissued on Heritage from the master tapes.

http://klassichaus.us/documents/HavergalBrianInformation.pdf
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 15, 2013, 06:45:30 AM
Thank you very much John. I just downloaded it!

Jolly,tuneful music,did you say? Sounds right up my street. I don't like anything too progressive,like York Bowen!!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 15, 2013, 06:56:07 AM
Regarding Douglas Young's 'The Hunting of the Snark'. I'm sure I remember reading a Gramophone Magazine review of the LSSO Lp release?! Or did I?!! :-\ ::) Unfortunately,you can't access their archive any more,unless you want to subscribe to that now,sadly, crummy,glossy rag!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 15, 2013, 07:03:39 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 15, 2013, 06:56:07 AM
Regarding Douglas Young's 'The Hunting of the Snark'. I'm sure I remember reading a Gramophone Magazine review of the LSSO Lp release?! Or did I?!! :-\ ::) Unfortunately,you can't access their archive any more,unless you want to subscribe to that now,sadly, crummy,glossy rag!
Yes, it got good reviews. Myself and Curt have just finished restoring it for Cameo Classics. It will be available shortly from Cameo along with the Brian/Peter Hill, Crumb/Dreamtimer and Music for a Royal Occasion from St Pauls LPs. David Kent Watson lost the 4 masters and he's delighted with the transfers.
Here's a preview:
Brian piano music http://youtu.be/6D351AweSvA
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 15, 2013, 07:20:24 AM
Thank you very much for the links,John! It certainly sounds intriguing! It's also very good news about the Brian Piano music release,although,having had the original Lp................perhaps I'd better not say! :-X John Dowlands Fancy was rather nice,though. Sorry I can't be more enthusiastic about the actual music itself! :(
Hope I haven't hurt your feelings! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 15, 2013, 07:27:18 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 15, 2013, 07:20:24 AM
Thank you very much for the links,John! It certainly sounds intriguing! It's also very good news about the Brian Piano music release,although,having had the original Lp................perhaps I'd better not say! :-X John Dowlands Fancy was rather nice,though. Sorry I can't be more enthusiastic about the actual music itself! :(
Hope I haven't hurt your feelings! ??? ;D
I bought a perfect copy of the Cameo/Brian off Ebay by way of a favour to Cameo to enable me to make a transfer. The final restoration has worked out superbly well but personally I think the music is prett poor stuff. Sorry but there we go.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 07, 2013, 12:18:09 AM
A re-issue of Symphony 21 is now available at mdt, and a cool picture on the cover too.
(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/H/T/HTGCD256-7.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on October 07, 2013, 01:09:50 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 07, 2013, 12:18:09 AM
A re-issue of Symphony 21 is now available at mdt, and a cool picture on the cover too.
(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/H/T/HTGCD256-7.jpg)

Almost worth it for the photo alone!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 10, 2013, 07:58:24 AM
Quote from: springrite on October 07, 2013, 01:09:50 AM
Almost worth it for the photo alone!
Really good transfer. The CBS sessions are remarkable compared to the old LP.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 25, 2013, 02:49:10 PM
I've never listened intently enough to Elegy before. The other day I was listening to it in the Garry Walker version on Toccata and was very taken with it. I guess that I had always been a bit puzzled by the titles Elegy and Song of Sorrow (original title) and the actual sound of the music (a symphonic movement with some quite loud bits). I then dug out the BBC recording and listened to that and I found I was understanding it a bit more. I now think that the programme for the piece is some sort of reflection on the life of some national figure who has died, and through that person we reflect on the passing of time, historical events, the life of the person and people of the time. Perhaps a sort of In Memoriam II

That interpretation is purely personal and you can take it or leave it, however, I found that I was preferring the BBC version, as with Garry Walker's Reverie from the English Suite No.5, with his Elegy he seems to be hurrying a bit (11" versus 14" BBC). Which lead me to think about tempi in HB.  I noted that in MacDonald's books HB is continually overestimating how long his symphonies will last (i.e. he writes "I have a new symphony of about 25 minutes" and when played it proves to be around 18"). Obviously because HB was composing and writing the music out he experienced it more closely than we do, but perhaps in some cases we might consider that conductors play his music too fast. Perhaps there is a tendency for conductors to see all that percussion and think "Oh, toccata marziale here, better whip through it".

This isn't a plea for Edward Heath type super-slow conducting, but perhaps when more HB recordings are available it will be found that the slower recordings show more facets of the music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2013, 03:11:32 PM
Tempo is always important. In Brian a wrong tempo can ruin a movement or a piece. Elegy is a case in point. So is Reverie. In both cases Walker is simply too fast for the music to unfold all of its meaning. The funeral march in Symphony No. 12 is another case in point. I always liked the 1966 Del Mar performance, I thought the tempo there was right and matched the menacing atmosphere. Until Malcolm MacDonald told me he thought the much slower (earlier) version under Harry Newstone was much better (I think it was Newstone. I do this from memory, sitting in the night train form Amsterdam to Delft). When I listened to that historic recording with MM's recommendation in mind, I had to agree. Yes, the tempo was very slow indeed, but the power was greater, too. Slowness gives you a sense of the past, a sense of time passing; speed gives you more of a here and now. I think slowness suits much of Brian's music best, because you sense historic depth.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 26, 2013, 03:43:17 AM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 07, 2013, 12:18:09 AM
A re-issue of Symphony 21 is now available at mdt, and a cool picture on the cover too.
(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/H/T/HTGCD256-7.jpg)


Delighted to see this back again. Heritage have revived some fine old British material - Holst, Bax, Bliss amongst them.

On LP this was my first encounter with Havergal Brian. The epic Symphony No 10, with it's culminating sense of grim, hard-won, yet enduring triumph (according to Harold Truscott) was a revelation to me. The recent (excellent) Dutton CD featuring the symphony made me realise what a fine job the young Leicestershire musicians  did, all those years ago. The great front picture is the composer with Robert Simpson outside his council flat in Shoreham, not far from where I work (as reported previously here I was delighted a while back to drive past a bus named 'Havergal Brian' on my way to work).  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 26, 2013, 03:46:13 AM
Hi, Jeffrey! Great to learn that you really spotted this fabled bus in the wild!
As for the re-issue - I don't think the second recording of No. 10 beats the first one, either.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 28, 2013, 02:11:25 PM
If anyone hasn't seen it yet,there appears to be another review of the recent Naxos cd of Havergal Brian symphonies on Musicweb.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2013, 02:19:56 PM
Thanks, cilgwyn! Am reading it now...


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Oct13/Brian_sys_8572833.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Oct13/Brian_sys_8572833.htm)


Update: good review! The writer doesn't 'get' Brian completely, but enjoys what he can understand.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 29, 2013, 12:56:33 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 28, 2013, 02:19:56 PM
Thanks, cilgwyn! Am reading it now...


http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Oct13/Brian_sys_8572833.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Oct13/Brian_sys_8572833.htm)


Update: good review! The writer doesn't 'get' Brian completely, but enjoys what he can understand.

Curt at Klassic Haus will be pleased. Good free advertising for him.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 06, 2013, 05:43:08 AM
Just had a look at the footage of the Prom Gothic on Youtube. Of course,this is 'very old news',but I haven't looked at it for quite a while and what a steady hand!! I seem to recall Johan's sister took this. Apart from the steadiness,considering it's difficult enough to hold even a dedicated camcorder that still,at times! I like the professionalism of it. The measured and well thought out taking in of the forces involved. The zooming in and spotlighting of the conductor and performers involved,all very effectively done,considering the circumstances. No fuzzy,whizzing and shaking about. Even the organist gets a shot! Very impressive. You can sit back and enjoy this one! I get the feeling that (Johan's sister? I'll have to look through the posts?) has previous experience with camcorders? As someone who had some aspirations in this field,for a while;I am impressed. And,let's face it,mobile phone/camera phone footage (I don't have one & the basic one I had is currently short of a number!) is (at least to some degree) one of the curses of the modern media as anyone who knows who has had to sit through allot of the wobbly,unwatchable footage that gets on the tv these days!
Let's be thankful that this footage was taken by someone who knew what they were doing! This is is about all we've got;unless someone out there took some and for some reason,hasn't uploaded it? If so,and it's as good as this,I'll be amazed!

Tried to listen to Bruckner's ninth yesterday,after responding to some pro-Bruckner posts at the Art Music Forum (AMF). Couldn't help thinking of John,this forums No1 Bruckner fan! ;D After a few minutes off it went! Phew! And there I was trying to be open minded. With all due respect to Brucknerian's everywhere;this is one area in which I hope very much to close my mind! ;D (Although,I DO quite like the Seventh,for some strange reason?!! ??? :o :().
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 06, 2013, 05:58:50 AM
Hi, cilgwyn! My sister had taken a Canon camera with her. Before we boarded in Amsterdam, she bought a battery... If she hadn't done that (taken it along and bought a battery), we wouldn't have the footage... Yes, she has some experience. She's the visual twin, I am the verbal... Thanks for the compliments. I'll pass them on to her!


As for Bruckner - you must have a congenial temperament to appreciate him, it seems. I have never encountered any problems...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 06, 2013, 06:47:10 AM
Thanks! I remember annoying my parents,when I bought a camcorder about twelve years ago now. Lots of trips and walks with their own personal camera man. Poor them! And allot of footage with the camera whizzing out and back again and zooming in and zooming out. Actually,looking at it now,it's not shakiness that's the problem;but the mistaken belief that lots of  swanky panning and zooming makes a good camera man! Since then the camcorder has stayed in the bag most of the time;although I am planning to replace it with something more impressive and resume my 'film career!' ;D

As to Bruckner. I did go through a phase of listening to allot of Bruckner around the late 80s,courtesy of the local library. Lps then;most of them Karajan box sets. I DO like the Seventh,the Fifth has a wonderful melody in one of the slow movements (if memory serves me correctly) and the ninth is very different. I'll put it on tonight. Of course,I wasn't being entirely serious about the closing my mind bit! I haven't listened to the ninth in a long time and I have an idea I DO like it.

Over at the AMF they are putting up lists of music you can't live without (not sure if that's the exact title?). Brian's third is going to have to be in there and maybe the Second. Then there's No 13? 'The Tigers'.........and the 'Gothic'? As I've said before,not my favourite Brian symphony;and I don't listen to it as much as I used to;but how can I miss out something that made such an impression on me at a such a formulative period of my life?!!
No3 has to be the to choice for me though. It's so engrossing,endlessly fascinating,and there's always something rather mysterious and enigmatic about it. In contrast,the Gothic is more of an open statement. It might be visionary and apocalyptic in scope,but you know exactly what it's about.

The pc,or connection is getting a bit tetchy,so I'm going to have to post this without my usual checking,while the going is good! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 09, 2013, 10:20:44 AM
BRUCKNER, Give me strength. Have any of you mob bought the Heritage double yet? That's worth some air time on here.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 09, 2013, 10:51:50 AM
Sarge owns that set as I've seen him listening to it on the 'Listening' thread. Maybe he could chime in here.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 09, 2013, 12:01:23 PM
Well, yes, I have the heritage double set (I buy all HB cd issues, not a habit that's going to bankrupt me).

It's a brilliant piece of work, start with fine performances,then improve the sound enormously.

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2013, 10:58:33 PM
I've had it about a month but haven't gone beyond the first CD. The 10th is so good I just want to keep playing it over and over. I haven't compared it to my Unicorn CD so I can't yet say if there's an improvement in sound.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on December 11, 2013, 04:24:37 AM
I've always thought the LSSO 10th to be a remarkable achievement - the power and mystery of this great score is, IMHO, conveyed far better than in the recent Dutton recording (not that I'm not grateful for the latter).

I remain convinced that it's the 10th Symphony, together with the wonderfully lyrical 6th, that might "make" Brian's reputation as a significant British composer. (The 'Gothic', for all its glories, is a work of such sonic extravagance that it will always struggle for the financial resources to stage it, and will always draw negative reactions from squeamish critics.)

6 and 10 are marvellous works - there is drama and violence, but also episodes of serenely beautiful melody and - most importantly - a real sense of storytelling that is sometimes difficult to apprehend in some of HB's knottier symphonies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 08:17:04 AM
Cross-posted from the 'Purchases' thread:

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 08:14:02 AM
Also bought some more Havergal Brian as one of my New Year's resolutions is to get a better understanding of this composer's music:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00A7HV6FE.01.L.jpg) (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00BX8TZBI.01.L.jpg)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0052FG8D6.01.L.jpg)

I longed for a better recording of the Violin Concerto as the one on Naxos was insufficient. I'm also considering the 2-CD set on Heritage, which I'll probably just go ahead and post as purchased. :)

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00FAQ1F4E.01.L.jpg)

If Johan (J. Z. Herrenberg), who I share many musical affinities with, says this composer is one of his favorites, then I've got to give Brian another go.

What do you Brianites makes of these recordings? I can say I really admire Andrew Penny's conducting, so I look forward to hearing his Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 08:52:45 AM
Hi, John!


First off - great that you're diving into Brian again!


The CDs that you have bought contain a lot of very late Brian, and I can predict that you'll have to grapple with those symphonies (20-25). I had, a long time ago. If I can recommend a listening order, I'd say - listen to Symphony No. 10 first. It's epic, mysterious and moving. I'll never forget hearing that opening for the first time. The playing of the LSSO is excellent; the violins can sound a bit rough, but in the final analysis that doesn't matter: the performance is unforgettable and the newer recording (Brabbins) hasn't managed to supersede it (and not only in my opinion).


I'd listen to No. 22, the 'Symphonia Brevis', after that to hear how Brian has changed during the intervening years. It's his shortest symphony, and one of his strongest. If you understand the way it moves and develops, you'll be able to 'get' the even more brutal concision and aggression of its successor. So - I recommend listening to the 'trilogy' 22-24 as a unit. I was never able to do that when I was your age, for the simple fact that only No. 22 had been recorded. But now the whole 'arc' of these three symphonies can be enjoyed. You'll find that 23 is the hardest nut to crack, but that No. 24 makes ample amends by many minutes of sheer lyricism.


After that - 'relax' with the First, Fourth and Fifth English Suites, the Fantastic Variations and The Tinker's Wedding.


Which leaves Symphonies 20 and 25, which won't give you much trouble if you have digested the trilogy of 22-24. No. 20 is quite spacious and lyrical and 25 is rather grim but approachable.


The wonderful Violin Concerto from the 1930s will make an excellent dessert...


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 09:04:09 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 08:52:45 AM
Hi, John!


First off - great that you're diving into Brian again!


The CDs that you have bought contain a lot of very late Brian, and I can predict that you'll have to grapple with those symphonies (20-25). I had, a long time ago. If I can recommend a listening order, I'd say - listen to Symphony No. 10 first. It's epic, mysterious and moving. I'll never forget hearing that opening for the first time. The playing of the LSSO is excellent; the violins can sound a bit rough, but in the final analysis that doesn't matter: the performance is unforgettable and the newer recording (Brabbins) hasn't managed to supersede it (and not only in my opinion).


I'd listen to No. 22, the 'Symphonia Brevis', after that to hear how Brian has changed during the intervening years. It's his shortest symphony, and one of his strongest. If you understand the way it moves and develops, you'll be able to 'get' the even more brutal concision and aggression of its successor. So - I recommend listening to the 'trilogy' 22-24 as a unit. I was never able to do that when I was your age, for the simple fact that only No. 22 had been recorded. But now the whole 'arc' of these three symphonies can be enjoyed. You'll find that 23 is the hardest nut to crack, but that No. 24 makes ample amends by many minutes of sheer lyricism.


After that - 'relax' with the First, Fourth and Fifth English Suites, the Fantastic Variations and The Tinker's Wedding.


Which leaves Symphonies 20 and 25, which won't give you much trouble if you have digested the trilogy of 22-24. No. 20 is quite spacious and lyrical and 25 is rather grim but approachable.


The wonderful Violin Concerto from the 1930s will make an excellent dessert...

I appreciate the feedback, Johan! 8) I'm about to dive into Symphonies 11, 15, 17, & 32. I'm thinking of giving the Gothic another listen as well (Brabbins). Of course, I also have a Toccata Classics recording of some lighter fare that will make a nice side dish. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 09:11:36 AM
Aha! 11, 15, 17 and 32, eh? Those four are very different from each other. I like them all, but for different reasons. No. 11 is simply beautiful and dreamlike. No. 15 ceremonial (its bombast is not to be taken wholly seriously). No. 17 is the even more mysterious sister of No. 16 - I love it. And No. 32 ends the whole canon in a very classical way, but on Brian's terms...


As for the Gothic...


Happy listening! And report back!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 15, 2013, 09:19:03 AM
10 has become one of my favourite symphonies of all time. I bet John would love it as well!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 09:37:57 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 09:11:36 AM
Aha! 11, 15, 17 and 32, eh? Those four are very different from each other. I like them all, but for different reasons. No. 11 is simply beautiful and dreamlike. No. 15 ceremonial (its bombast is not to be taken wholly seriously). No. 17 is the even more mysterious sister of No. 16 - I love it. And No. 32 ends the whole canon in a very classical way, but on Brian's terms...


As for the Gothic...


Happy listening! And report back!

Excellent notes to go along with my listening. Thanks, Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 09:43:17 AM
Quote from: springrite on December 15, 2013, 09:19:03 AM
10 has become one of my favourite symphonies of all time. I bet John would love it as well!

I've heard it before, but don't remember it. :( I've got Brabbins recording of it floating around my collection somewhere.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 09:46:43 AM
To celebrate my reemergence into the sonic-world of Havergal Brian, I have switched to a commemorative avatar. 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 09:48:06 AM
Listening to In Memoriam right now (Leaper/RTE National SO). Very beautiful and lyrical.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 09:53:45 AM
It is astonishing that this composer thread (the longest composer thread on GMG?) has reached this many pages. Wow. Truly outstanding. I doubt I'll be able to go through the whole thing, but I'm sure it contains some viable information.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 10:00:39 AM
One thing I notice right away, even after not listening to Brian for quite some time, is how his music seems to flow quite organically. Also, I've read he paid special attention to the structure of his music --- shaping, molding it into something cohesive. This was also quite apparent from even the very first measures of In Memoriam.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 10:03:51 AM
Formally, Brian is his own man. You have to learn his language. Once you understand, you can enjoy (even more). And you never get to the bottom of his special form of magic...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 10:07:50 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 10:03:51 AM
Formally, Brian is his own man. You have to learn his language. Once you understand, you can enjoy (even more). And you never get to the bottom of his special form of magic...

I'll have no problem understanding the musical language. I mean it's pretty much all there in the Gothic. If a person doesn't like the Gothic, then, in my own view, they won't care much for anything that came after. I realize that each symphony has it's own story, but the language of Brian is a unique one and one that is very apparent in his early music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2013, 10:08:38 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 09:53:45 AM
It is astonishing that this composer thread (the longest composer thread on GMG?) has reached this many pages. Wow. Truly outstanding. I doubt I'll be able to go through the whole thing, but I'm sure it contains some viable information.

Second longest, actually. But still an impressive accomplishment that shows the dedication of the fans of his music. Plenty of others out there are merely dabbled at, but Brian is in it for the long run, and more power to him.   :)

8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 10:15:03 AM
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2013, 10:08:38 AM
Second longest, actually. But still an impressive accomplishment that shows the dedication of the fans of his music. Plenty of others out there are merely dabbled at, but Brian is in it for the long run, and more power to him.   :)

8)

+1 :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 10:21:54 AM
Haydn and Brian rule the roost - HB.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 15, 2013, 10:27:22 AM
Love the Brian avatar!

The Brian photo with a pipe reminded me of this: Two days ago at the photo shoot for Die Zeit magazine, they asked if I had a pipe so they could take a photo with me and a pipe! But I didn't have it so a cigar was used. Hehee... 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 10:29:46 AM
You'll feature in Die Zeit? Which issue?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 15, 2013, 10:34:05 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 10:29:46 AM
You'll feature in Die Zeit? Which issue?
Was to be Jan 7. But now may be rescheduled for April. I will let you guys know. I need a translation as well since my German is only sufficient for reading CD liner notes!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 10:44:49 AM
Excellent!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 11:30:37 AM
Quote from: springrite on December 15, 2013, 10:27:22 AM
Love the Brian avatar!

The Brian photo with a pipe reminded me of this: Two days ago at the photo shoot for Die Zeit magazine, they asked if I had a pipe so they could take a photo with me and a pipe! But I didn't have it so a cigar was used. Hehee...

Cool, Paul! 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 12:11:10 PM
Went ahead and bought that Heritage 2-CD set for $24 via Presto Classical. Audio samples sounded fantastic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 12:26:57 PM
What does everyone make of this film?

http://www.youtube.com/v/3UtPTwHggO0

Has anyone seen the full film or is it even available yet? I'd love to see it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 12:28:05 PM
I wish Bridcut and the BBC would make a documentary film about Brian like they did RVW, Delius, and more recently Britten. That would be incredible!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 12:29:10 PM
I agree with your latest post. As for this documentary, I have seen it. Very enjoyable. It hasn't been issued commercially yet, though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 12:31:52 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 12:29:10 PM
I agree with your latest post. As for this documentary, I have seen it. Very enjoyable. It hasn't been issued commercially yet, though.

Damn! Hopefully, it'll be released before too long.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 02:55:04 PM
I'm hearing some Delian-inspired moments in Symphony No. 10 past the 11 minute mark where the violin solo just breaks right through those ominous clouds. I think I read somewhere (maybe on the HB Society website) that he admired Delius. Even more reason to continue to listen to this man's music! 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 03:01:08 PM
Brian was a great Delian. He knew Delius personally and was a staunch advocate of his works. Some of Delius's nature mysticism is sometimes there in Brian, too. Whether because of influence or affinity is a moot point...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 03:03:39 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 03:01:08 PM
Brian was a great Delian. He knew Delius personally and was a staunch advocate of his works. Some of Delius's nature mysticism is sometimes there in Brian, too. Whether because of influence or affinity is a moot point...

Right, it really doesn't matter how Delius slips into Brian's music, but that it's there at all makes me grin from ear to ear. Good to know he, too, was a strong advocate of the composer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 08:25:56 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 07, 2012, 02:31:12 PMGive me Boulez any day.

I know this was awhile back, John, but...dear....lord...what a statement. Boulez is a good conductor but his own music is the equivalent of a bird cage with all the birds are squawking at the same time. Such rubbish.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 15, 2013, 08:35:17 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 08:25:56 PM
a bird cage with all the birds are squawking at the same time

enticing! Kimi loved it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 08:40:56 PM
Quote from: springrite on December 15, 2013, 08:35:17 PM
enticing! Kimi loved it!

Well I meant for this analogy to be taken in the most negative way imaginable. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 15, 2013, 09:14:42 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 08:40:56 PM
Well I meant for this analogy to be taken in the most negative way imaginable. :)

And I am trying to diffuse it as it is quite similar to what you said about (fill in the blank) before...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 09:28:04 PM
Quote from: springrite on December 15, 2013, 09:14:42 PM
And I am trying to diffuse it as it is quite similar to what you said about (fill in the blank) before...

Ah, yes. Well in any event, I just found John's comment strange that he would prefer Boulez to Bruckner. That just baffles me.

Anyway, I've been making a whole day of Brian. I listened to Symphonies 10, 11, 15, 17, 30, & 32, Concert Overture, Comedy Overture 'Doctor Merryheart', English Suite No. 3, Concerto for Orchestra, In Memoriam, and Festal Dance. I wish I had something intelligent or even remarkable to post, but I'll just say that I've enjoyed every minute of this revisitation. Tomorrow, I'm going to try and find my recording of Symphony No. 3 (Hyperion). I heard this is an excellent symphony and it's been too long since I last heard it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 15, 2013, 09:31:28 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 09:28:04 PM
Ah, yes. Well in any event, I just found John's comment strange that he would prefer Boulez to Bruckner. That just baffles me.

Anyway, I've been making a whole day of Brian. I listened to Symphonies 10, 11, 15, 17, 30, & 32, Concert Overture, Comedy Overture 'Doctor Merryheart', English Suite No. 3, Concerto for Orchestra, In Memoriam, and Festal Dance. I wish I had something intelligent or even remarkable to post, but I'll just say that I've enjoyed every minute of this revisitation. Tomorrow, I'm going to try and find my recording of Symphony No. 3 (Hyperion). I heard this is an excellent symphony and it's been too long since I last heard it.

I knew you would love Brian!!!

BTW, I prefer Boulez to Bruckner by a mile and a half.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 09:54:29 PM
Re John's remark about Boulez - he hates Bruckner so much that he beats him with a composer he only hates marginally less... Ergo: he was joking.

I applaud your Brian binge, John. I wonder if all those symphonies are separate entities in your mind, or just one sonic blur... I am glad you enjoyed the music.

As for the Third Symphony - it's a rich and colourful score. The Hyperion recording is a bit dry, the performance itself is good. You could take a look at the Klassic Haus restoration of the BBC performance... There are samples. It's cheap.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 16, 2013, 12:23:06 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 09:54:29 PM
Re John's remark about Boulez - he hates Bruckner so much that he beats him with a composer he only hates marginally less... Ergo: he was joking.

I applaud your Brian binge, John. I wonder if all those symphonies are separate entities in your mind, or just one sonic blur... I am glad you enjoyed the music.

As for the Third Symphony - it's a rich and colourful score. The Hyperion recording is a bit dry, the performance itself is good. You could take a look at the Klassic Haus restauration of the BBC performance... There are samples. It's cheap.
Indeed I was and don't call me Ergo. I'm very heartened to see that some people have enjoyed the Heritage set. Makes the effort that went into getting it released very worthwhile.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 16, 2013, 12:38:22 AM
The Curse of the Gothic is good overall but there are some parts that make you cringe. It's also very long for it's content and it does tend to outstay its welcome in places. Did Bruckner edit it? What does come over, though, is a very enthusiastic group of people who had a vision and worked their socks off to deliver it. Considering the amateur status of most of the participants the end result was terrific - more evidence that Brian actually isn't that difficult to play and youth/amateur groups can produce decent results from the old chap's scores. Indeed, the Aussie Gothic audio recording is well worth a listen. I have a good recording of the film taken from the telly and I seem to recall sending Johan a copy. I met John Bridcut on a Queen Victoria cruise in 2012 and asked him if he intended to make a Brian film. He had been thinking about it and was in the choir for the Schmidt/LSO Gothic but couldn't remember much about it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 16, 2013, 12:41:12 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 09:54:29 PM
Re John's remark about Boulez - he hates Bruckner so much that he beats him with a composer he only hates marginally less... Ergo: he was joking.

I applaud your Brian binge, John. I wonder if all those symphonies are separate entities in your mind, or just one sonic blur... I am glad you enjoyed the music.

As for the Third Symphony - it's a rich and colourful score. The Hyperion recording is a bit dry, the performance itself is good. You could take a look at the Klassic Haus restauration of the BBC performance... There are samples. It's cheap.
It's not cheap. How very dare you. It's a high quality product at a bargain price. Better performance than the Hyperion in my opinion.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 16, 2013, 12:45:00 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 08:52:45 AM
Hi, John!


First off - great that you're diving into Brian again!


The CDs that you have bought contain a lot of very late Brian, and I can predict that you'll have to grapple with those symphonies (20-25). I had, a long time ago. If I can recommend a listening order, I'd say - listen to Symphony No. 10 first. It's epic, mysterious and moving. I'll never forget hearing that opening for the first time. The playing of the LSSO is excellent; the violins can sound a bit rough, but in the final analysis that doesn't matter: the performance is unforgettable and the newer recording (Brabbins) hasn't managed to supersede it (and not only in my opinion).


I'd listen to No. 22, the 'Symphonia Brevis', after that to hear how Brian has changed during the intervening years. It's his shortest symphony, and one of his strongest. If you understand the way it moves and develops, you'll be able to 'get' the even more brutal concision and aggression of its successor. So - I recommend listening to the 'trilogy' 22-24 as a unit. I was never able to do that when I was your age, for the simple fact that only No. 22 had been recorded. But now the whole 'arc' of these three symphonies can be enjoyed. You'll find that 23 is the hardest nut to crack, but that No. 24 makes ample amends by many minutes of sheer lyricism.


After that - 'relax' with the First, Fourth and Fifth English Suites, the Fantastic Variations and The Tinker's Wedding.


Which leaves Symphonies 20 and 25, which won't give you much trouble if you have digested the trilogy of 22-24. No. 20 is quite spacious and lyrical and 25 is rather grim but approachable.


The wonderful Violin Concerto from the 1930s will make an excellent dessert...
Bloody cheek!!!!!!  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 12:52:57 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 16, 2013, 12:38:22 AM
The Curse of the Gothic is good overall but there are some parts that make you cringe. It's also very long for it's content and it does tend to outstay its welcome in places. Did Bruckner edit it? What does come over, though, is a very enthusiastic group of people who had a vision and worked their socks off to deliver it. Considering the amateur status of most of the participants the end result was terrific - more evidence that Brian actually isn't that difficult to play and youth/amateur groups can produce decent results from the old chap's scores. Indeed, the Aussie Gothic audio recording is well worth a listen. I have a good recording of the film taken from the telly and I seem to recall sending Johan a copy. I met John Bridcut on a Queen Victoria cruise in 2012 and asked him if he intended to make a Brian film. He had been thinking about it and was in the choir for the Schmidt/LSO Gothic but couldn't remember much about it.


Yes, you sent me a copy, it's sitting on the pile of books next to me... I seem to recall the idea was to issue the documentary together with (a film of) the Brisbane performance, which would be great.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 16, 2013, 03:42:11 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 12:52:57 AM

Yes, you sent me a copy, it's sitting on the pile of books next to me... I seem to recall the idea was to issue the documentary together with (a film of) the Brisbane performance, which would be great.
Yes, a film of the actual performance would be well worth seeing, despite the music :) Why oh why did Auntie Beeb fail us so badly at the Proms?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 07:03:24 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 15, 2013, 09:54:29 PM
Re John's remark about Boulez - he hates Bruckner so much that he beats him with a composer he only hates marginally less... Ergo: he was joking.

I applaud your Brian binge, John. I wonder if all those symphonies are separate entities in your mind, or just one sonic blur... I am glad you enjoyed the music.

As for the Third Symphony - it's a rich and colourful score. The Hyperion recording is a bit dry, the performance itself is good. You could take a look at the Klassic Haus restauration of the BBC performance... There are samples. It's cheap.

Honestly, Johan, I can't remember a note of any of the symphonies. I have the same problem with Tubin, Rubbra, and Holmboe for example. Not being able to remember a work after I heard it doesn't mean of course that I dislike the music, it's just that, in my opinion, this kind of music is best listened to 'in the moment' and as to whether anything sticks or not, I'm not worried about in the long run because I'm constantly surprised by melodic and harmonic inventiveness of their music. I've liked every work I've heard from Brian so far and this should be a testament to the kind of consistency he had as a composer. But, I'm still learning my way with Brian and this could take months and even years, it's just going to take a lot more time. I could never expect to snap my fingers and automatically understand this music, but that would be foolish and unrealistic, but all the composers I've had to make an effort with have ended up becoming favorites. Although, with Delius, there was no effort on my part. I heard In A Summer Garden and I was almost in a trance and it's so interesting to hear Eric Fenby speak of this love at first listen with Delius, because he said you'll either love him on first listen or you'll never understand him at all. He was certainly right!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 07:24:24 AM
I'm going to try and keep my Brian-related purchases here, so I just picked up this Mackerras recording:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/5f/66/bbe0224128a0e22cab04c010.L._SY300_.jpg)

I know you can buy the 2-CD set with Charles Groves, but it was much cheaper to buy the Mackerras separately.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 07:34:14 AM
That Mackerras CD is very good. Good buy! As for your inability to keep all the symphonies and other orchestral works apart, many of us were spoiled by the inimitable Malcolm MacDonald and his excellent Brian studies. Before I heard a note of any of the symphonies, I had read about them and had already a (sonic) mental picture beforehand. Your position is more difficult and I applaud you for diving in!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 07:56:19 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 07:34:14 AM
That Mackerras CD is very good. Good buy! As for your inability to keep all the symphonies and other orchestral works apart, many of us were spoiled by the inimitable Malcolm MacDonald and his excellent Brian studies. Before I heard a note of any of the symphonies, I had read about them and had already a (sonic) mental picture beforehand. Your position is more difficult and I applaud you for diving in!

Yeah, I listened to some of Symphony No. 7 on YT and I said to myself "Must. Buy. Now!" :D Well, I'm constantly reading about Brian and his life and thanks to the HBS website, I'm able to continue and further my education. The more knowledge I gain about Brian, the richer my listening experience will be the next time around.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 16, 2013, 08:12:14 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 07:03:24 AM
Honestly, Johan, I can't remember a note of any of the symphonies. I have the same problem with Tubin, Rubbra, and Holmboe for example. Not being able to remember a work after I heard it doesn't mean of course that I dislike the music, it's just that, in my opinion, this kind of music is best listened to 'in the moment' and as to whether anything sticks or not, I'm not worried about in the long run because I'm constantly surprised by melodic and harmonic inventiveness of their music. I've liked every work I've heard from Brian so far and this should be a testament to the kind of consistency he had as a composer. But, I'm still learning my way with Brian and this could take months and even years, it's just going to take a lot more time. I could never expect to snap my fingers and automatically understand this music, but that would be foolish and unrealistic, but all the composers I've had to make an effort with have ended up becoming favorites. Although, with Delius, there was no effort on my part. I heard In A Summer Garden and I was almost in a trance and it's so interesting to hear Eric Fenby speak of this love at first listen with Delius, because he said you'll either love him on first listen or you'll never understand him at all. He was certainly right!
It took me just over twenty years to 'crack' the later symphonies (11 onwards);with the exception of No's 16 & 21,which I got to know via those celebrated recordings! I used to think they all sounded the same. One day I decided to make cdrs of the symphonies,so that I could listen to them all in succession. In one evening,it was as if they all seemed to mysteriously 'open up'! What had previously seemed a craggy,granitic ear grating trawl seemed to shape shift into an astonishingly varied 'hinterland' (to pinch a word from the old Lyrita sleeve notes,I think?) that surprised and delighted the ear. It is possible that Johan will recall that particular evening (night,actually!)? The posts are still on this thread,somewhere!
The ones after No21 took a little longer;but the timely arrival of the  recent Naxos cd soon sorted that one out! I just hope they will release a follow up?!! By the way,if you like Brian and other composers less favoured by the 'establishment' (or whatever you call it?) there is some very bad music for British music lovers on the 'Duttons for October' thread at the Art Music Forum today!! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 08:15:47 AM
I remember your 'night of revelation' very well, cilgwyn... I'll see if I can find out when it was. As for that bad news, I'll have a look...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 11:19:18 AM
I'm listening to Symphony No. 11 again and this is just a gorgeous work. What do all of you think of this symphony?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 11:23:10 AM
Yes, gorgeous it is (in the Naxos recording the opening movement is played too fast, IMO). As I said earlier, it's a beautiful and dreamlike work. Malcolm MacDonald calls it a 'holiday symphony', because the struggles of Symphonies 8-10 have no place in it...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 16, 2013, 11:24:59 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 11:19:18 AM
I'm listening to Symphony No. 11 again and this is just a gorgeous work. What do all of you think of this symphony?
I truly don't remember much in detail about most of Brian's symphonies (like you, John!), except 10, 1, 3, 4, 12. I truly love them all, all that I have heard anyway. But 10 is my favourite of the bunch.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 11:30:42 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 11:23:10 AM
Yes, gorgeous it is (in the Naxos recording the opening movement is played too fast, IMO). As I said earlier, it's a beautiful and dreamlike work. Malcolm MacDonald calls it a 'holiday symphony', because the struggles of Symphonies 8-10 have no place in it...

Yes, I could see how someone like Brabbins could be able to do a little more with this symphony, but the current performance is certainly acceptable. I've been doing some reading and it appears there is another performance of Symphony No. 11 available (Harry Newstone, LSO). Anyway, yes, it's certainly dreamlike in it's overall mood.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 11:32:38 AM
Quote from: springrite on December 16, 2013, 11:24:59 AM
I truly don't remember much in detail about most of Brian's symphonies (like you, John!), except 10, 1, 3, 4, 12. I truly love them all, all that I have heard anyway. But 10 is my favourite of the bunch.

The only reason I remember anything about the 11th is because I'm listening to it right now. ;) :D But, seriously, I can hear some memorable themes. It's just Brian is so full of ideas. I mean it's like once he turned the tap on (referring to his symphonies mainly), it was hard for him to turn the tap off. Music flowed from him so naturally.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 11:40:25 AM
Newstone's 11th is here:


http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDBP9798 (http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDBP9798)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 11:42:14 AM
I now certify myself to be a full-fledged Brianite. Hear! Hear! All in favor, say I.

I'm addicted to this composer's music, I can't stop listening to it. Aghhh...I thought this would never happen. Just proves one shouldn't ever say never. :) The fact Brian is virtually self-taught makes everything he wrote even more astonishing. Such a brilliant mind. I mean it's great if a composer can go to a conservatory or whatever but there are some minds that are beyond mere academics and Brian's was certainly one of them.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 11:43:16 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 11:40:25 AM
Newstone's 11th is here:


http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDBP9798 (http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=CDBP9798)

Thank you! How is the sound on this one, Johan? I'm worried about the 'mono' indicator on the front cover.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 11:46:19 AM
Well, I know about your predilection for great sound. These are historic recordings... BUT - there is no better performance yet of that wonderful slow movement that opens the work...


Nice to see you've been bitten by the Brian bug, btw. I know the feeling!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 11:49:33 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 11:46:19 AM
Well, I know about your predilection for great sound. These are historic recordings... BUT - there is no better performance yet of that wonderful slow movement that opens the work...


Nice to see you've been bitten by the Brian bug, btw. I know the feeling!

Thanks for the feedback, Johan. I'm going to make it my personal mission for 2014 to champion the works of Brian, Rubbra, Schnittke, Koechlin, and Hartmann!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 11:52:19 AM
Just bought:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0063R98XE.01.L.jpg)

I already own the first volume.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 11:54:48 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 11:49:33 AM
Thanks for the feedback, Johan. I'm going to make it my personal mission for 2014 to champion the works of Brian, Rubbra, Schnittke, Koechlin, and Hartmann!


Excellent cast of characters!


Quote from: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 11:52:19 AM
Just bought:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0063R98XE.01.L.jpg)

I already own the first volume.


That one is an amazing CD. Brian at his most mercurial.


Oh, that 'Concert Overture' you listened to (on the Naxos CD with 11 & 15) is called For Valour.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 12:14:05 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 11:54:48 AM

Excellent cast of characters!

8)

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 11:54:48 AMThat one is an amazing CD. Brian at his most mercurial.


Oh, that 'Concert Overture' you listened to (on the Naxos CD with 11 & 15) is called For Valour.

Yep, For Valour. Very nice work. Good to hear about this Walker recording. I certainly have a good bit of Brian on the way now. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 01:19:09 PM
Really been enjoying this recording this afternoon:

(http://www.toccataclassics.com/cms/uploads/CyberLabel/images/artwork/album_art/TOCC0110-jc-cover.jpg)

There are so many facets to Brian's music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 01:22:59 PM
You had the nice effect of making me listen to Brian again, John, after 'pausing him' for a few months. My thanks!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 01:26:46 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 01:22:59 PM
You had the nice effect of making me listen to Brian again, John, after 'pausing him' for a few months. My thanks!

Well thanks, Johan. I'm glad I could be the catalyst for you to get back into Brian again. Oh and I'll definitely be championing Delius again as I should have never stopped. Not sure what I was thinking there. Anyway, what do you think of all the English Suites? I know the second one is lost, right?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 01:34:38 PM
Yes, the Second English Suite is lost, a casualty of Brianic carelesness, I think (and of moving house a lot, I guess). As for the remaining ones, Nos. 1 and 3 are my personal favourites, but 4 and 5 are very inventive, too. And the Reverie in No. 5 is unique (Brian's Adagio for Strings!) On the Heritage CDs you'll find a better performance, by the way.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 01:46:17 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 01:34:38 PM
Yes, the Second English Suite is lost, a casualty of Brianic carelesness, I think (and of moving house a lot, I guess). As for the remaining ones, Nos. 1 and 3 are my personal favourites, but 4 and 5 are very inventive, too. And the Reverie in No. 5 is unique (Brian's Adagio for Strings!) On the Heritage CDs you'll find a better performance, by the way.

Will be delighted to revisit English Suite No. 5. I really hope Dutton releases more Brian in the future. Brabbins needs to get to work!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 01:56:59 PM
I agree with your sentiment. But, alas - it seems Mike Dutton will need more prodding to produce British music CDs in the future. There is a discussion about it on the Art-Music Forum. Here is a page from the discussion (if you can enter the site, that is):


http://artmusic.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2926.msg16693.html#msg16693 (http://artmusic.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2926.msg16693.html#msg16693)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 02:04:51 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 01:56:59 PM
I agree with your sentiment. But, alas - it seems Mike Dutton will need more prodding to produce British music CDs in the future. There is a discussion about it on the Art-Music Forum. Here is a page from the discussion (if you can enter the site, that is):


http://artmusic.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2926.msg16693.html#msg16693 (http://artmusic.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,2926.msg16693.html#msg16693)

Already made a post. ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 03:09:41 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 16, 2013, 08:12:14 AM
It took me just over twenty years to 'crack' the later symphonies (11 onwards);with the exception of No's 16 & 21,which I got to know via those celebrated recordings! I used to think they all sounded the same. One day I decided to make cdrs of the symphonies,so that I could listen to them all in succession. In one evening,it was as if they all seemed to mysteriously 'open up'! What had previously seemed a craggy,granitic ear grating trawl seemed to shape shift into an astonishingly varied 'hinterland' (to pinch a word from the old Lyrita sleeve notes,I think?) that surprised and delighted the ear. It is possible that Johan will recall that particular evening (night,actually!)? The posts are still on this thread,somewhere!
The ones after No21 took a little longer;but the timely arrival of the  recent Naxos cd soon sorted that one out! I just hope they will release a follow up?!! By the way,if you like Brian and other composers less favoured by the 'establishment' (or whatever you call it?) there is some very bad music for British music lovers on the 'Duttons for October' thread at the Art Music Forum today!! :(

Wow, twenty years?!?!? Holy crap! I would say that all of the symphonies I've heard so far, I have encountered zero problems. As far as getting more out of them this will only come with more listening experience. But never did I think "Oh, why in the world did he do this in that measure or why did he open this work with this musical phrase?" No, none of this thinking has even crossed my mind. His music is very well-thought out and conceived. How he managed to write all of this music and continue to reinvent himself over and over again is truly remarkable.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 03:23:00 PM
I remember I did struggle with a few of the later symphonies. What I did was listen to them again and again, and then, slowly but surely, the fog lifted. But at that time (late 70s, early 80s) I only had access to Symphonies 6, 8, 9, 10, 16, 21 and 22! That was all. I remember I found the first movement of No. 9 difficult! And No. 22 was a 'slab of concrete' to me. It was only after 1986 that, through the good services of fellow HBS members, I was able to listen to all of the symphonies that had been recorded. Then I started to see how varied Brian's music was and how uniquely recognisable at the same time. And I have never stopped loving that characteristic voice!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 03:39:17 PM
Well perhaps, because of some of my extreme listening habits, Brian doesn't oppose any challenges for me. Remember I went through quite a Contemporary music phase not too long ago where dissonances and a completely different logic altogether is abound. When I returned to more 'tonally centered' composers, even the ones that I once had trouble with like Holmboe or even Weinberg, I found were easily accessible. This was a good experience for me because it allowed me to reconcile connections with these composers I initially found too 'difficult' to grasp. I'm not finding any such problems with Brian and I wager that I'll continue to grow with his music, but, like I said, I just need more listening experience to form any kind of intelligent response.

So, in closing, we're all wired differently and come from different avenues, but as long as we're finding a connection with Brian's music, which most of us who continue to post have, then that's all that matters. It's not really how we all arrived here, but rather how we continue to be shaped by the music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 04:09:38 PM
I'm really enjoying the new HBS website. Kudos to the webmaster there for doing a bang up job.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 16, 2013, 05:04:33 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 03:09:41 PM
Wow, twenty years?!?!? Holy crap! I would say that all of the symphonies I've heard so far, I have encountered zero problems. As far as getting more out of them this will only come with more listening experience. But never did I think "Oh, why in the world did he do this in that measure or why did he open this work with this musical phrase?" No, none of this thinking has even crossed my mind. His music is very well-thought out and conceived. How he managed to write all of this music and continue to reinvent himself over and over again is truly remarkable.
;D Yes,it's right to the back of the class for me! :( The upside is I now actually find the later ones even more absorbing.
But then they all are!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 16, 2013, 05:11:42 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 16, 2013, 05:04:33 PM

;D Yes,it's right to the back of the class for me! :( The upside is I now actually find the later ones even more absorbing.
But then they all are!

Certainly, all the symphonies I've heard so far present the listener with a myriad of different moods and contrasts.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 17, 2013, 04:47:13 AM
Has anyone on here bought a copy of the new CD restoration of the Brian piano music LP on Cameo Classics? It worked out very well technically - much better than previous attempts from a poor, scratchy piece of vinyl. Can't admit to enjoying the music very much to be honest.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 17, 2013, 05:17:42 AM
It's on my list. It's an expensive month (daughter's birthday coming up, too).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2013, 05:51:58 AM
Just bought:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B004SGYIAU.01.L.jpg)

Apparently, the only recording of Brian's Cello Concerto. Will be interested in hearing the Bush work as well.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 17, 2013, 05:56:27 AM
You'll love the York Bowen - it's sheer beauty. Brian's Cello Concerto is one of his most attractive pieces. I only listened to the Bush only once, and I don't remember it...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2013, 06:25:09 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 17, 2013, 05:56:27 AM
You'll love the York Bowen - it's sheer beauty. Brian's Cello Concerto is one of his most attractive pieces. I only listened to the Bush only once, and I don't remember it...

I'm not too impressed with York Bowen's music, but I'll give it a listen. The Brian and Bush works are the main attraction for me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 17, 2013, 07:07:22 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2013, 03:23:00 PM
I remember I did struggle with a few of the later symphonies. What I did was listen to them again and again, and then, slowly but surely, the fog lifted. But at that time (late 70s, early 80s) I only had access to Symphonies 6, 8, 9, 10, 16, 21 and 22! That was all. I remember I found the first movement of No. 9 difficult! And No. 22 was a 'slab of concrete' to me. It was only after 1986 that, through the good services of fellow HBS members, I was able to listen to all of the symphonies that had been recorded. Then I started to see how varied Brian's music was and how uniquely recognisable at the same time. And I have never stopped loving that characteristic voice!
Just listened to it. One of the shortest and most impressive slabs of concrete in the business. I like it very much.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 17, 2013, 08:17:45 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 15, 2013, 03:03:39 PM
Right, it really doesn't matter how Delius slips into Brian's music, but that it's there at all makes me grin from ear to ear. Good to know he, too, was a strong advocate of the composer.
Part Four of 'Havergal Brian on music: Volume One,is devoted to his writings about Delius (at least 47 pages). He wrote more about Elgar;but "due to the remarkable size of the essay","The Art of Frederic Delius',which begins the Toccata Press Paperback selection,"they almost equal them in bulk". He is very enthusiastic about his music,referring to him as a genius.

If No 22 is one of the most impressive concrete slabs in the business,what does that make "Das Siegeslied",I wonder?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 17, 2013, 08:29:25 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 17, 2013, 08:17:45 AMIf No 22 is one of the most impressive concrete slabs in the business,what does that make "Das Siegeslied",I wonder?


Good question. I didn't know 'Das Siegeslied' in those days, I had only read about it. The quality of hardness (and harshness) is different, I think. The 'Siegeslied' is violent and fiery. And the use of the human voice also makes for a different impression. No. 22 is 'greyer', the 'Siegeslied' more colourful.


But these are all weak metaphors (they do express a truth, though).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 17, 2013, 09:01:37 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 17, 2013, 08:17:45 AM
Part Four of 'Havergal Brian on music: Volume One,is devoted to his writings about Delius (at least 47 pages). He wrote more about Elgar;but "due to the remarkable size of the essay","The Art of Frederic Delius',which begins the Toccata Press Paperback selection,"they almost equal them in bulk". He is very enthusiastic about his music,referring to him as a genius.

If No 22 is one of the most impressive concrete slabs in the business,what does that make "Das Siegeslied",I wonder?
An overlong fossilised dog turd comes to mind.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on December 17, 2013, 09:05:25 AM
Not that that's a bad thing . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2013, 04:57:03 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 17, 2013, 08:17:45 AM
Part Four of 'Havergal Brian on music: Volume One,is devoted to his writings about Delius (at least 47 pages). He wrote more about Elgar;but "due to the remarkable size of the essay","The Art of Frederic Delius',which begins the Toccata Press Paperback selection,"they almost equal them in bulk". He is very enthusiastic about his music,referring to him as a genius.

If No 22 is one of the most impressive concrete slabs in the business,what does that make "Das Siegeslied",I wonder?

Excellent. I'll have to pick up that book!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2013, 06:07:39 PM
Does anyone know anything about this book?

[asin]B007K4XIFS[/asin]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2013, 06:46:46 PM
Okay Brianites, this is going to be a crazy question, but if you could take five works by Brian to the desert island, what would they be?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 17, 2013, 08:45:40 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 17, 2013, 06:46:46 PM
Okay Brianites, this is going to be a crazy question, but if you could take five works by Brian to the desert island, what would they be?
#10 because it is my favourite
#1 because it is long
Siegeslied so I can drive some of the other desert islanders mad
The Dutton CD with orchestral parts of Brian operas because they are so cool
In Memoriam because I need something to listen to while the other desert islanders leave me for I am going to be the one with longevity to outlast everyone
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2013, 01:52:06 AM
1) The book is a collection of the best pieces from the HBS Newsletter. Contents - here: http://www.havergalbrian.org/schaarwaechter_contents.htm (http://www.havergalbrian.org/schaarwaechter_contents.htm)


2) It's impossible for me to name my five HB desert island discs...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 18, 2013, 02:05:42 AM
Quote from: springrite on December 17, 2013, 08:45:40 PM
#10 because it is my favourite
#1 because it is long
Siegeslied so I can drive some of the other desert islanders mad
The Dutton CD with orchestral parts of Brian operas because they are so cool
In Memoriam because I need something to listen to while the other desert islanders leave me for I am going to be the one with longevity to outlast everyone
1) No. 10 cos it has some music in it
2) No.22 cos it's very decent and short
3-5) Any 3 items from the Hull set for some comedy as I sit on the island getting naffed off
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2013, 04:58:58 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2013, 01:52:06 AM
1) The book is a collection of the best pieces from the HBS Newsletter. Contents - here: http://www.havergalbrian.org/schaarwaechter_contents.htm (http://www.havergalbrian.org/schaarwaechter_contents.htm)


2) It's impossible for me to name my five HB desert island discs...

Thanks, Johan. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2013, 06:25:22 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 17, 2013, 06:46:46 PM
Okay Brianites, this is going to be a crazy question...

Crazy indeed...and impossible. How about a dozen? That's almost doable. (Quotes from MacDonald's The Symphonies of Havergal Brian.)

Tone Poem: In Memoriam

Symphony No. 1 D minor "Gothic"

Symphony No. 2 E minor ("[speaks] with the accent of tragedy" and includes a battle Scherzo with 16 horns, two pianos and organ!)

Symphony No. 3 C sharp minor ("imbued with a rock-like, elemental heroism")

Symphony No. 7 C major ("Brian's last really large-scale symphony...Once upon a time..." I'm moved by its association with Strasbourg)


Malcolm MacDonald thinks the next three form, like 22, 23, 24, a trilogy.


Symphony No. 8 B flat minor (after the Gothic, my favorite..."The end like the beginning is dark as night, stuck fast on the horns of its own tragic dilemma")

Symphony No. 9 A minor

Symphony No. 10 C minor ("The Tenth confronts the tragedy implicit in No. 8 with affirmative human activity.")

Symphony No. 14 F minor (...a new [one movement] large-scale epic symphony of dark power and epic grandeur")

Symphony No.16 ("No. 16 is indeed an epic compressed into 18 minutes of playing time")


Brian's swan songs:


Legend: Ave atque vale ("Oddball piece though it is, it shows its composer still in full possession of a wickedly agile mind; it sets its face resolutely against all conventional expressions of farewell")

Symphony No. 32 ("No. 32 stands at the end of Brian's Symphonic canon not as a monument or terminal wall but as a bridge reaching out towards an unknown region: a brave work equally of dark difficult thoughts and heroic affirmation")


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2013, 06:30:55 AM
Nice list, Sarge! Perhaps 12 is doable for me too. I'll have a deep think...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2013, 06:32:37 AM
Wow, thanks for the extensive list, Sarge. These are some great notes for myself.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 18, 2013, 12:59:25 PM
Thanks for the compliment, Mirror Image! Why not join the HBS; all kinds of treasures here...

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 18, 2013, 04:57:35 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 18, 2013, 12:59:25 PM
Thanks for the compliment, Mirror Image! Why not join the HBS; all kinds of treasures here...

;)

My pleasure and I'll definitely consider it, hbwebsmaster. :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2013, 12:47:29 AM
Mirror Image, meet Martyn.
hbswebmaster, meet John.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 19, 2013, 12:51:59 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2013, 12:47:29 AM
Mirror Image, meet Martyn.
hbswebmaster, meet John.
Has this now become a dating site?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2013, 12:56:15 AM
Havergal Brian has brought many together, but I don't think romantically (yet).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 19, 2013, 05:47:58 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 19, 2013, 12:51:59 AM
Has this now become a dating site?

:P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 19, 2013, 11:45:25 PM
Oh, you two are a pair of cards!  :D

And you met - how?  :P

Still reeling from a totally stupendous Barbican concert last night, with Evgeny Kissin imperious but lovingly detailed in the Tchaikovsky first concerto, and Michael Tilson Thomas conducting an epic, trenchant and ultimately whirlwind Prokofiev fifth symphony. The LSO was on fire throughout the evening, in all departments. Wonderful. (Oops, sorry for the thread hijacking... but I didn't start it!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 19, 2013, 11:50:13 PM
We don't mind a Russian intrusion, provided it is short. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 20, 2013, 06:33:02 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 19, 2013, 11:45:25 PM
Oh, you two are a pair of cards!  :D

And you met - how?  :P

Still reeling from a totally stupendous Barbican concert last night, with Evgeny Kissin imperious but lovingly detailed in the Tchaikovsky first concerto, and Michael Tilson Thomas conducting an epic, trenchant and ultimately whirlwind Prokofiev fifth symphony. The LSO was on fire throughout the evening, in all departments. Wonderful. (Oops, sorry for the thread hijacking... but I didn't start it!)
You're lucky it wasn't Bruckner with John around! ;D
Anyway,if the recent cd from Naxos is anything to go by,a 'Russian intrusion' is fine by me!
Talking about all things Russian;I have reached the closing bar of another blockbuster symphony! Not a 'fossilised dog turd' thankfully (see John's earlier post). I'm referring to Gliere's 'Ilya Murometz!' This is the Faberman/ Unicorn recording,which was my first encounter with this symphony all those years ago. A seller (not Zoverstocks,I should point out!) was offering the original Unicorn set for £2.74!! His ratings were all good so I thought,why not?! I have to say,this is the first time I have enjoyed this symphony in ages! I had the Downes recording for a while. After some initial enthusiasm I stopped playing it. I even stopped liking the symphony which I had always loved! Playing Faberman's performance reignited my enthusiasm immediately. Yes,he takes his time ;D ,but what you get in return is the sense of scale,the grandeur and 'architecture' of the piece. The slow build up from the sepulchral gloom of the opening bringing out all the mystery and 'timelessness' of the music. The blazing grandeur of the heroic striding theme when it finally appears. Downes tempi may be more exciting on a visceral level,and he may have saved some people the cost of buying a 2cd set ;D ,but it all seems like so much superficial technicolor gloss.....and unforgivably rushed! ??? :(  (And don't get me wrong;I'm usually an admirer of Downes conducting!)

Of course,apart from the fact that Gliere's third is another symphonic colossus of epic ambition and the hb webmasters post,you're probably all thinking,what the heck has this got to do with the subject matter of this thread? Except that listening to Faberman's performance immediately brought back memories of another recording which nearly put me off another massive symphony I had always loved. The Marco Polo/ Naxos recording of the Gothic. Again,hearing the Boult (and Schmidt) recordings after many years reignited my enthusiasm for Brian's flawed,but ultimately,mind boggling creation. For me,there was simply no comparison. The Marco Polo performance seemed shapeless (although it gets better as it goes along) the tempi erratic,like an old car struggling with gear changes. Even worse,as far as I was concerned,that weird boxy Marco Polo sound. Horrible,muddy sound quality,lack of detail. And where was that extraordinary xylophone,that would have made Berloz's hair stand on end?!! ;D On a more positive note,the choirs were fantastic. Absolutely superb. I think they were even better than the ones in the Prom performance.

Having said that;maybe I WAS a little hard on the Marco Polo recording. It was a brave,pioneering (commercially) recording of something that doesn't exactly come along to a conductors 'podium' on any average day of any average week;and it's easy for me to sit and judge! The Marco Polo recording obviously introduced allot of people to an otherwise commercially unavailable work,and for that Naxos and Ondrej Lenard should be applauded (literally,if you like,at the end of cd 2! ;D )

http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/18/havergal-brian-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/

The above blog (hopefully,the link works!) will have been read countless times by users of this thread,having been on the web for quite some time now;but it helped with making this post! For instance,the name of the musician who played the xylophone solo ("astounding"),Chris Stock! If only all the critical responses had been as detailed as this!

NB: I know some people dislike Faberman's recording of Gliere. It's all ultimately a subjective experience I suppose;but I like my Gliere 3 drawn out and glacial paced,so there! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 20, 2013, 07:47:40 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 20, 2013, 06:33:02 AM
You're lucky it wasn't Bruckner with John around! ;D
Anyway,if the recent cd from Naxos is anything to go by,a 'Russian intrusion' is fine by me!
Talking about all things Russian;I have reached the closing bar of another blockbuster symphony! Not a 'fossilised dog turd' thankfully (see John's earlier post). I'm referring to Gliere's 'Ilya Murometz!' This is the Faberman/ Unicorn recording,which was my first encounter with this symphony all those years ago. A seller (not Zoverstocks,I should point out!) was offering the original Unicorn set for £2.74!! His ratings were all good so I thought,why not?! I have to say,this is the first time I have enjoyed this symphony in ages! I had the Downes recording for a while. After some initial enthusiasm I stopped playing it. I even stopped liking the symphony which I had always loved! Playing Faberman's performance reignited my enthusiasm immediately. Yes,he takes his time ;D ,but what you get in return is the sense of scale,the grandeur and 'architecture' of the piece. The slow build up from the sepulchral gloom of the opening bringing out all the mystery and 'timelessness' of the music. The blazing grandeur of the heroic striding theme when it finally appears. Downes tempi may be more exciting on a visceral level,and he may have saved some people the cost of buying a 2cd set ;D ,but it all seems like so much superficial technicolor gloss.....and unforgivably rushed! ??? :(  (And don't get me wrong;I'm usually an admirer of Downes conducting!)

Of course,apart from the fact that Gliere's third is another symphonic colossus of epic ambition and the hb webmasters post,you're probably all thinking,what the heck has this got to do with the subject matter of this thread? Except that listening to Faberman's performance immediately brought back memories of another recording which nearly put me off another massive symphony I had always loved. The Marco Polo/ Naxos recording of the Gothic. Again,hearing the Boult (and Schmidt) recordings after many years reignited my enthusiasm for Brian's flawed,but ultimately,mind boggling creation. For me,there was simply no comparison. The Marco Polo performance seemed shapeless (although it gets better as it goes along) the tempi erratic,like an old car struggling with gear changes. Even worse,as far as I was concerned,that weird boxy Marco Polo sound. Horrible,muddy sound quality,lack of detail. And where was that extraordinary xylophone,that would have made Berloz's hair stand on end?!! ;D On a more positive note,the choirs were fantastic. Absolutely superb. I think they were even better than the ones in the Prom performance.

Having said that;maybe I WAS a little hard on the Marco Polo recording. It was a brave,pioneering (commercially) recording of something that doesn't exactly come along to a conductors 'podium' on any average day of any average week;and it's easy for me to sit and judge! The Marco Polo recording obviously introduced allot of people to an otherwise commercially unavailable work,and for that Naxos and Ondrej Lenard should be applauded (literally,if you like,at the end of cd 2! ;D )

http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/18/havergal-brian-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/

The above blog (hopefully,the link works!) will have been read countless times by users of this thread,having been on the web for quite some time now;but it helped with making this post! For instance,the name of the musician who played the xylophone solo ("astounding"),Chris Stock! If only all the critical responses had been as detailed as this!

NB: I know some people dislike Faberman's recording of Gliere. It's all ultimately a subjective experience I suppose;but I like my Gliere 3 drawn out and glacial paced,so there! ;D

Go to this link and scroll down. You will find a free download of Scherchen's Westminster recording. Well worth getting. No catch. You don't have to sign up or even give an email address. I have all of this catalogue downloaded and transferred to CD. Take a browse.

http://www.rediscovery.us/conductors2.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2013, 09:05:47 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 20, 2013, 07:47:40 AM
Go to this link and scroll down. You will find a free download of Scherchen's Westminster recording. Well worth getting. No catch. You don't have to sign up or even give an email address. I have all of this catalogue downloaded and transferred to CD. Take a browse.

http://www.rediscovery.us/conductors2.html

Wow...a treasure trove! Thanks for the link, John. I'm listening to Ristenpart's Haydn now (the Sinfonia Concertante) while waiting for the Gliere to download.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 20, 2013, 09:55:01 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2013, 09:05:47 AM
Wow...a treasure trove! Thanks for the link, John. I'm listening to Ristenpart's Haydn now (the Sinfonia Concertante) while waiting for the Gliere to download.

Sarge
If you go to conductors A - L you will find one of the great recordings by Anshel Brusilow. This is one of the gems in the Rediscovery catalogue. The Arensky is absolutely electrifyng.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2013, 10:15:23 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 20, 2013, 09:55:01 AM
If you go to conductors A - L you will find one of the great recordings by Anshel Brusilow. This is one of the gems in the Rediscovery catalogue. The Arensky is absolutely electrifyng.

Brusilow...a conductor I've never heard of. I will check him out.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 20, 2013, 10:32:59 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 20, 2013, 10:15:23 AM
Brusilow...a conductor I've never heard of. I will check him out.

Sarge
He was Ormandy's leader at the Philadelphia. He played the solo on Ormandy's Scheherazade and Heldenleben to name but 2.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 20, 2013, 11:37:19 AM
Thank you John. As you can see I'm very pro Faberman. It was the first recording I ever heard of this symphony so I will always have a special affection for it! It's also great that there are sellers on Amazon who are prepared to offer the original Unicorn set for such a low,low price!! £2.74p! And I just looked on a whim!!
That said that,I've been looking for a cd of the Scherchen for a long time. I remember trying a link on one site a while back but to my dismay the download had been removed! :( Let's face it Scherchen got there first with a complete recording. In fact according to one Gliere pundit his recording is the best ever! I also have no problem with old recordings having a collection of early acoustic and electrical recordings dating back to the early years of the last century.

Cheers! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 20, 2013, 01:17:51 PM
Great sound,John! No worries about restrictive mono sound here,this is excellent. Plenty of perspective,a nice bass quality to the sound but not muffled or boomy. And unlike some transfers I can think of,none of that horrible airless 'under water' (as someone described it somewhere) sound quality. In other words any extraneous noise removed isn't at the expense of listening pleasure. Excellent,for it's period. I definitely prefer this to the Downes recording.
Still haven't got to the end of the symphony,I should point out.
Again,thank you and to 'ReDiscovery' of course! :) I'm glad I waffled on about Gliere,now,and hopefully 'Sarge' is too! (Well,for the link you provided not my waffle! ;D)

No "overlong,fossilised dog turd" here! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 20, 2013, 02:08:10 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 20, 2013, 01:17:51 PM
Great sound,John! No worries about restrictive mono sound here,this is excellent. Plenty of perspective,a nice bass quality to the sound but not muffled or boomy. And unlike some transfers I can think of,none of that horrible airless 'under water' (as someone described it somewhere) sound quality. In other words any extraneous noise removed isn't at the expense of listening pleasure. Excellent,for it's period. I definitely prefer this to the Downes recording.
Still haven't got to the end of the symphony,I should point out.
Again,thank you and to 'ReDiscovery' of course! :) I'm glad I waffled on about Gliere,now,and hopefully 'Sarge' is too! (Well,for the link you provided not my waffle! ;D)

No "overlong,fossilised dog turd" here! ??? ;D
It is rather good especially for an ancient Westminster mono LP. Some restorations just go too far and get rid of all the vinyl background. Trouble is, the sound is also decimated and dessicated if you do this. David Gideon (ReDiscovery) and Curt Timmons (Klassic Haus) get it just right - reduced background, a wee tweak with the general sound quality but no destructive over-filtering. Most of my collaborations have been with Curt (around 40 so far) but if you go to "performers" on the ReDiscovery site you will find two of my efforts - Jenner's Brahms 2 (very rare WRC stereo) and a glorious Robert Gerle version of the Brahms Hungarian Dances (Westminster). Both of these came up as fresh as new paint. I'm no fan of Gliere - there are hints of dog poo about it :) I've just finished three titles for Curt, due for January release - WRC G and S overtures (RPO/Alwyn), WRC Beethoven Fiddle concerto and Piano concerto No.3 (Cyroulnik and Jenner respectively) and a superlative 1964 stereo Elgar collection by Weldon - just fantastic in all respects. The best Cockaigne I've come across. All good fun. Happy listening on ReDiscovery - get a spindle of blanks and some printer paper and you will soon have a magnificent collection for the cost of a few pints.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 20, 2013, 05:44:33 PM
Only hints of dog poo?
That's good!! ;D
Too late for a detailed reply,I'm afraid;but I really did enjoy the Scherchen performance. The second movement with those sultry maidens was particularly arresting,the flow of the music voluptuously caressed and shaped.......not to mention those aforementioned sultry maidens! ;D

http://www.clarihorn.freeserve.co.uk/gliere/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 20, 2013, 06:00:48 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 20, 2013, 05:44:33 PM
Only hints of dog poo?


Interesting how people feel the need to specify what kind of poo ...

I am in a hotel and after one night sleep, I see I have download 0.8% of  the Gleire. I think I will try when I get home.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 21, 2013, 01:08:02 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 20, 2013, 05:44:33 PM
Only hints of dog poo?
That's good!! ;D
Too late for a detailed reply,I'm afraid;but I really did enjoy the Scherchen performance. The second movement with those sultry maidens was particularly arresting,the flow of the music voluptuously caressed and shaped.......not to mention those aforementioned sultry maidens! ;D

http://www.clarihorn.freeserve.co.uk/gliere/
Just been to the Gliere site from your link and within it there is a link to the ReDiscovery/Scherchen but it doesn't work properly. In Ireland they refer to this symphony as Gliere's Turd Symphony, hence the dog poo allusion :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 21, 2013, 05:45:20 AM
But cats,lovable cuddly little creatures that they are (and of vastly superior intelligence to dogs who are,lets face it a few slices short of the proverbial sandwich) have the decency and consideration to dig a little hole in the ground after they've done their business,so people with big feet like me don't step in cat poo! All of which means that it's difficult to compare musical works with cat poo,because you don't really have the prerequisite mental image in your head to make the appropriate comparison in the first place.
All of which reminds me of a story about my grandfather who was very keen on cycling going out one day on his bicycle many years ago. Unfortunately for him the circus had been to town. The result,an unfortunate accident with an extremely large pile of elephant dung!
B***** council workers! You'd think they'd have cleaned it up!

Regarding that link. Yes,I tried that,John.
By the way,I'm listening to Gliere's thingummy ;D right now!

Incidentally,after buying that s/h unicorn cd of Faberman's Gliere 3,I couldn't resist trying something else by the same conductor.More b***** expense! I knew I shouldn't have bought it!! :( ;D Interestingly,although the cd booklet mentions him embarking on a mahler recording project,there is little sign of one in the form of available cds. I ended up buying his recording of Ives Fourth. Apparently he takes the second movement slower than anyone else. A slow conductor,it seems!! Unfortunately the same seller was flogging a cd of his first and second,so I ended up buying that cd as well!! ::) :( Apparently,Faberman was the first conductor to record all four and they do get some praise on the 'Charles Ives' website;although the finale of No3 doesn't include bells!! Tut! Tut! I like mavericks,outsiders and unusual combos,so I had to buy these. Abravanel is another one! Sibelius in the desert?! That sounded pretty wierd,but he's actually very good!! I like his Mahler and Antar (Rimsky-Korsakov) too.
Faberman would have been an interesting choice for the Gothic if he'd ever been introduced to it. A slow Gothic? (Imagine sitting there for three hours?) or a slow 'Das Siegeslied?!'

Or no Das Siegeslied?!! ??? ;D


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 21, 2013, 07:44:03 AM
Nearly 300 pages! I know,I'll list my favourite Brian works!

Symphony no 3 (my favourite! Endlessly fascinating,enigmatic)
Symphony No 2 (brooding,mysterious and tragic)
Symphony No 7  (Mysterious,full of atmosphere,enigmatic)
Symphony No 10 (Brian's best?)
Symphony No 11 (Pastoral,Brian at his most serene and beautiful)
Symphonies 13-14 (utterly absorbing,packed with imagination)
Symphony No 21  (Underrated,some wonderful music here)
Symphony No 22-24 (Craggy marvels packed with invention)
Symphony No 30 & 31 (Like cryptic puzzles,so absorbing)
Violin Concerto (one of the few Violin concertos I actually like)
The Tigers     (An eccentric masterpiece?!!)
English Suites (Full of inventive ideas & colour,find
                      the Second,please!)
Festal Dance (Hull Youth include the piano! Fair play!
             

Oops missed out No's 6 & 16 (but foods on the way!!)

Runner up:
the Gothic symphony!

Least favourite:

Das Siegeslied
The Jolly Miller Overture
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 21, 2013, 10:44:28 AM
I have been busy, hence my silence. I will check out that Scherchen Glière. I love the Third Symphony. Never had any trouble with Edward Downes, though. I also have Botstein and Ormandy. It's been a while, so I don't know exactly how good those other performances were. As for that Brian list, I think I must bow out. There are simply too many pieces I love.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 21, 2013, 11:49:45 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 21, 2013, 10:44:28 AM
I have been busy, hence my silence. I will check out that Scherchen Glière. I love the Third Symphony. Never had any trouble with Edward Downes, though. I also have Botstein and Ormandy. It's been a while, so I don't know exactly how good those other performances were. As for that Brian list, I think I must bow out. There are simply too many pieces I love.
Beware with Scherchen. The Gliere is OK but other than that I've yet to hear a good performance from him but to be fair most of his Westminsters (also on WRC in the 1960s) were with that dreadful Vienna State Opera mob. Some of his horrors that spring to mind are Vltava, Bartered Bride, the Liiszt Hungarian Rhapsodies, an Espana that collapses, Manfred (Schumann), a Bolero that's all over the shop, some scrappy French overtures a peculiar set of Brandenburgs and some very shoddy Mahler. When I listen to him I wonder if he actually had a beat because there is just no clear direction that comes over to the listener. He doesn't seem to care about things such as ensemble and intonation. Was he Edward Heath or Lord Menuhin in disguise? :) Talking of Westminster/Vienna SSO I urge anyone that enjoys a good laugh to search out Boult's stereo Planets. Mars actually collapses and the 1st horn makes several mistakes throughout the work. Jupiter is beyond them. Maybe they were sight reading. Honestly - get hold of it. A real hoot.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 22, 2013, 07:06:54 AM
It's  nice to see people discussing music here. Everyone seems to be far more interested in discussing Marmite over at the Art Music Forum. Why don't they just rename it the Art Marmite Forum? And I started it! :( I just mentioned (in passing) the fact that I had stocked up with seven jars of Vegemite!! If it was corned beef or baked beans would they all be sitting around having heated debates about that? Well baked beans maybe?!! :o ;D

The Scherchen Gliere 3 is highly rated by some from what I have seen on various threads and reviews in various parts of the web. I also gather Botstein on Telarc is supposed to be one of the worst. I see that Gliere actually recorded a cut version himself,which would be interesting to hear. No timing indications on the Gliere website and as far as I can make out you can't get it on cd;although No2,and No1 (I think?) have been available.

Disappointing that Scherchen's other recordings sound so dodgy! :( I really did enjoy the Scherchen;although Faberman's the only one who really makes this score sound good as far as I'm concerned.
One other point! It really is nice to have the original Unicorn cover artwork,with that strange looking horseman. Very eye catching,particularly on the original gatefold Lp sleeve;and imo,very well chosen. It's also nice not to have to program out that Cello Concerto! Why this mania for fill ups? I remember buying s/h copies of Elgar symphonies and VW's Job,so I could enjoy them without programing out fill-ups. I accept using the program button isn't exactly like having to build the Burma railway single handedly;but the Elgar symphonies and VW's Job are substantial works. I don't need fill ups!

Popular albums of bands and singers are even worse in this respect. Classic albums ruined by bonus tracks that were all too obviously left in the can for reasons other than Lp duration timings. Yes,they are occasionally interesting;but even then they spoil the balance of the original album. Again,it's often a good idea to look for the original cd release,which can often be much cheaper,because people want the remastered one with the bonus tracks.
Of course,I can make a cdr without the offending extras. But I don't always want to!

Not that I'm against fill-ups. It's just the need to fill every left over gap just in case someone gets worked up because there is a bit of left over! As a matter of fact,well chosen fill ups can be very rewarding. For example, Barbirolli's Elgar 2 coupled with Sospiri & Elegy,Barbirolli No1 with the 'Cockaigne Overture' or his recording of VW's Fifth Symphony with Bax's 'Tintagel' (Grrreeat!! :))

As to the Brian list. I sympathise with your viewpoint. To be honest I was just trying to bring the thread towards the 300 page mark,although I do stand by the two 'least favourites' cited! The AMF forum had a thread on "What music couldn't you live without?". After much mulling over and pencil made lists,I decided there was no way I could possibly post such a list. I also pointed out that however much I like music I'm not going to stick my head in a gas oven,take an overdose,jump off a cliff or get a rope (any more suggestions?! ;D) because I can't listen to music! Quite frankly I'll just carry on trying to write fiction,paint,draw,read,watch dvds,videos,eat,drink,******** :o and sleep like I usually do!! :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 22, 2013, 08:03:18 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 22, 2013, 07:06:54 AM
It's  nice to see people discussing music here. Everyone seems to be far more interested in discussing Marmite over at the Art Music Forum. Why don't they just rename it the Art Marmite Forum? And I started it! :( I just mentioned (in passing) the fact that I had stocked up with seven jars of Vegemite!! If it was corned beef or baked beans would they all be sitting around having heated debates about that? Well baked beans maybe?!! :o ;D

The Scherchen Gliere 3 is highly rated by some from what I have seen on various threads and reviews in various parts of the web. I also gather Botstein on Telarc is supposed to be one of the worst. I see that Gliere actually recorded a cut version himself,which would be interesting to hear. No timing indications on the Gliere website and as far as I can make out you can't get it on cd;although No2,and No1 (I think?) have been available.

Disappointing that Scherchen's other recordings sound so dodgy! :( I really did enjoy the Scherchen;although Faberman's the only one who really makes this score sound good as far as I'm concerned.
One other point! It really is nice to have the original Unicorn cover artwork,with that strange looking horseman. Very eye catching,particularly on the original gatefold Lp sleeve;and imo,very well chosen. It's also nice not to have to program out that Cello Concerto! Why this mania for fill ups? I remember buying s/h copies of Elgar symphonies and VW's Job,so I could enjoy them without programing out fill-ups. I accept using the program button isn't exactly like having to build the Burma railway single handedly;but the Elgar symphonies and VW's Job are substantial works. I don't need fill ups!

Popular albums of bands and singers are even worse in this respect. Classic albums ruined by bonus tracks that were all too obviously left in the can for reasons other than Lp duration timings. Yes,they are occasionally interesting;but even then they spoil the balance of the original album. Again,it's often a good idea to look for the original cd release,which can often be much cheaper,because people want the remastered one with the bonus tracks.
Of course,I can make a cdr without the offending extras. But I don't always want to!

Not that I'm against fill-ups. It's just the need to fill every left over gap just in case someone gets worked up because there is a bit of left over! As a matter of fact,well chosen fill ups can be very rewarding. For example, Barbirolli's Elgar 2 coupled with Sospiri & Elegy,Barbirolli No1 with the 'Cockaigne Overture' or his recording of VW's Fifth Symphony with Bax's 'Tintagel' (Grrreeat!! :))

As to the Brian list. I sympathise with your viewpoint. To be honest I was just trying to bring the thread towards the 300 page mark,although I do stand by the two 'least favourites' cited! The AMF forum had a thread on "What music couldn't you live without?". After much mulling over and pencil made lists,I decided there was no way I could possibly post such a list. I also pointed out that however much I like music I'm not going to stick my head in a gas oven,take an overdose,jump off a cliff or get a rope (any more suggestions?! ;D) because I can't listen to music! Quite frankly I'll just carry on trying to write fiction,paint,draw,read,watch dvds,videos,eat,drink,******** :o and sleep like I usually do!! :( ;D
Marmite or Dog Turd? tough choice :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 22, 2013, 08:15:22 AM
I have been listening to Brian everyday now. Can't get enough of this great composer. It more than clicked! Wow!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 08:16:22 AM
Quote from: springrite on December 22, 2013, 08:15:22 AM
I have been listening to Brian everyday now. Can't get enough of this great composer. It more than clicked! Wow!

I know that feeling finally, too. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 22, 2013, 08:17:33 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 08:16:22 AM
I know that feeling finally, too. :)
I need to buy a good pipe...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 08:19:52 AM
Binge-listening to Brian - we've all done it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 08:22:38 AM
I'm about to start some serious Brian listening again. Hence why I changed my avatar back.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 08:23:28 AM
And lovely it is, too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 22, 2013, 08:23:57 AM
The tough project for me would to convert Kimi...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 08:26:12 AM
Quote from: springrite on December 22, 2013, 08:23:57 AM
The tough project for me would to convert Kimi...


There's your New Year's resolution.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 08:30:24 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 08:23:28 AM
And lovely it is, too.

Yeah, this is a cool picture and I actually converted it to black-and-white from the original. I think it looks better. I actually did the same thing with your avatar as well.

I'm hoping all of my Brian recordings that I ordered get here before Christmas, but that's a mighty big wish.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 08:38:36 AM
I sometimes wonder what it is that can attract some listeners so strongly to this composer... For me - the sense of adventure, the feeling your are inside someone's brain-space... Brian may not have his heart on his sleeve, but he certainly welcomes you inside his mind.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 22, 2013, 08:55:55 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 08:30:24 AM
Yeah, this is a cool picture and I actually converted it to black-and-white from the original. I think it looks better. I actually did the same thing with your avatar as well.

I'm hoping all of my Brian recordings that I ordered get here before Christmas, but that's a mighty big wish.
Santa detests Brian so you might just come a cropper.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 08:57:18 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 08:38:36 AM
I sometimes wonder what it is that can attract some listeners so strongly to this composer... For me - the sense of adventure, the feeling your are inside someone's brain-space... Brian may not have his heart on his sleeve, but he certainly welcomes you inside his mind.

Some people wear their hearts on their sleeves in other ways. It doesn't have to be an overt emotionality in the music, in my opinion, for it to be considered 'heart on sleeve.' This said, I don't think Brian is a cold composer at all. Quite the contrary actually.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 22, 2013, 08:58:01 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 22, 2013, 08:55:55 AM
Santa detests Brian so you might just come a cropper.

All because Mrs. Claus is a Brianite? Geez, come on Santa!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 08:58:14 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 22, 2013, 08:55:55 AM
Santa detests Brian so you might just come a cropper.

:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 09:00:30 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 08:57:18 AM
Some people wear their hearts on their sleeves in other ways. It doesn't have to be an overt emotionality in the music, in my opinion, for it to be considered 'heart on sleeve.' This said, I don't think Brian is a cold composer at all. Quite the contrary actually.


I think Brian's emotional gamut is very very wide. But I always get the sense that Brian is able to remain in control. His heart belongs to his head. Which I like.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 09:02:08 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 09:00:30 AM

I think Brian's emotional gamut is very very wide. But I always get the sense that Brian is able to remain in control. His heart belongs to his head. Which I like.

Yes, a wide array emotions inhabit his music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 22, 2013, 09:02:48 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 09:00:30 AM
His heart belongs to his head. Which I like.

*bingo!*
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 22, 2013, 09:31:47 AM
My heart belongs to Daddy! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 09:33:36 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 22, 2013, 09:31:47 AMMy heart belongs to Daddy! :)

Your candour does you credit.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 11:30:36 AM
I will be revisiting Symphonies Nos. 2, 3, 4, & 18 over the course of tonight and tomorrow as I finally have all of my Brian recordings together. They were scattered throughout my collection.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 11:42:22 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 11:30:36 AM
I will be revisiting Symphonies Nos. 2, 3, 4, & 18 over the course of tonight and tomorrow as I finally have all of my Brian recordings together. They were scattered throughout my collection.


One caveat: the Naxos 2 is one of the less satisfactory performances (final movement comes off best). A better recording is the restored one with Mackerras on Klassic Haus.


http://klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-No--2.php (http://klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-No--2.php)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 22, 2013, 12:12:27 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 11:42:22 AM

One caveat: the Naxos 2 is one of the less satisfactory performances (final movement comes off best). A better recording is the restored one with Mackerras on Klassic Haus.


http://klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-No--2.php (http://klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-No--2.php)
Ditto No.3
http://klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-No--3.php
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 12:20:10 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 22, 2013, 12:12:27 PM
Ditto No.3
http://klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-No--3.php (http://klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-No--3.php)


Agreed. But The Hyperion Third isn't as bad.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 22, 2013, 12:28:03 PM
Glad people are coming on board, and appreciation of Brian is growing, but it's a pity there aren't any new recordings in the pipeline for next year (as far as we know).

On another note, it's now almost two years since I discovered this forum and through it the BBC recordings of Brian (before that I only had the published CDs).

Thanks everyone for your erudite and of entertaining comments, thanks to John W for his scepticism :-)

Happy Christmas and New Year!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 12:28:53 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 12:20:10 PM

Agreed. But The Hyperion Third isn't as bad.

This performance doesn't sound bad at all. On an unrelated topic, I'm going to be re-examining Bax's music as well so chalk him up on my composer list for 2014.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 12:30:53 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on December 22, 2013, 12:28:03 PM
Glad people are coming on board, and appreciation of Brian is growing, but it's a pity there aren't any new recordings in the pipeline for next year (as far as we know).

On another note, it's now almost two years since I discovered this forum and through it the BBC recordings of Brian (before that I only had the published CDs).

Thanks everyone for your erudite and of entertaining comments, thanks to John W for his scepticism :-)

Happy Christmas and New Year!


The same to you! And I'm glad to hear that your stay here was and is fruitful. Your own contributions haven't been particularly empty, either. So - thanks!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 12:33:10 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 12:28:53 PM
This performance doesn't sound bad at all. On an unrelated topic, I'm going to be re-examining Bax's music as well so chalk him up on my composer list for 2014.


I like Bax a lot (Symphonies 1-3, 6 and 7, and several of the tone poems). I'm curious to see how, in your eyes, he compares to Brian. Both composers created their own world.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 12:38:26 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 12:33:10 PM

I like Bax a lot (Symphonies 1-3, 6 and 7, and several of the tone poems). I'm curious to see how, in your eyes, he compares to Brian. Both composers created their own world.

It's hard to argue that Delius, Brian, RVW, Elgar, and Bax weren't some of the most unique British composers of the 20th Century.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 12:39:25 PM
I happen to love all of them. So - yes!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 12:47:09 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 12:39:25 PM
I happen to love all of them. So - yes!

I'm definitely going to work on Bax. What would you say are some of the main characteristics of his style, Johan? Sorry to continue to post off-topic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 12:51:27 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 12:47:09 PM
I'm definitely going to work on Bax. What would you say are some of the main characteristics of his style, Johan? Sorry to continue to post off-topic.


There is a Bax-thread, of course... When I think of Bax I think of colourful orchestration, passion, romanticism, Eros, nature. He is formally much more conventional than Brian, in my opinion. Brian is completely unpredictable; but Bax fills the traditional forms in a very original way. The strings carry everything. But he can write great things for the brass and the woodwind, too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 12:52:37 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 22, 2013, 12:51:27 PM

There is a Bax-thread, of course... When I think of Bax I think of colourful orchestration, passion, romanticism, Eros, nature. He is formally much more conventional than Brian, in my opinion. Brian is completely unpredictable; but Bax fills the traditional forms in a very original way.

Thanks for the feedback, Johan. Now back to Brian...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 22, 2013, 07:23:18 PM
Well, I revisited Symphony No. 3 and rather enjoyed it. Some fantastic music within this symphony. I might give it another listen tomorrow. I also listened to the Violin Concerto (Naxos recording), which was quite nice, but I imagine it being better performed on the Dutton recording I have on order. After I listen to some of Debussy's Pelleas, I'm going to listen to Symphony No. 18.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 23, 2013, 06:18:51 AM
It was a dark and stormy night and a naive young teenager was sitting alone reading the latest issue of Gramophone magazine....

I've said this before somewhere,of course;but I didn't like Brian's third the first time I heard it. I remember sending off for the Lp,which was one of several Brian Lps in a list supplied by 'Michael G Thomas',who used to advertise regularly in the back pages of Gramophone,while it was still the classical music magazine to read. Well,if you lived in Britain,anyway! I recall thinking that it was a bit strange. I hadn't heard of any Havergal Brian Lp of No 3 or any of the others listed. Anyway,I sent my postal orders off and two or three weeks later it arrived. The album cover one of the worst I've ever seen. A shot of a rock surrounded by waves,which sounds okay,but it wasn't even a good photograph. And there was something a bit strange about the presentation. Not that it was that bad,just something odd about it! And the 'Lisbon Conservatory Orchestra?' "Hm!" I though,"I haven't heard of them before? Oh well,it just shows how little I know about classical music,I suppose!" ;D So,I put it on,and this not long after hearing the Ole Schmidt performance of the Gothic! The sound quality was a little boxy,but clear enough,but the music was nothing like the 'Gothic' or any of the other Brian Lps I'd bought. Then,a few minutes into the Lp one of the strangest sounds I have ever heard in any symphony I have listened to! ???
Of course,later on I found out that I'd actually bought a Pirate Lp! Years later and No3 is now my favourite Brian symphony!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2013, 06:56:10 AM
Yeah, I can hear how the 3rd could grow on listeners. I'm going to be listening to it again today. Right now, I don't think I have a favorite Brian symphony, but the 3rd, 10th, and 17th have made strong impressions on me, but my ears are still growing with this music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2013, 06:59:24 AM
I remember listening to the Third Symphony for the first time. 1985 it was, or thereabouts. Composer John Pickard had sent me a tape (he studied in The Hague at the time). The work enchanted me, but it upset me, too. I found the conclusion, ostensibly 'triumphant', more of an explosion of frustration. It sounded like someone rattling his cage. 'I want to get out!' Almost thirty years on, I think the symphony is one of Brian's finest and richest.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 23, 2013, 08:17:21 AM
While I didn't like it at the time it certainly intrigued me!
I DID like the Second,though! The doom laden,brooding,enigmatic atmosphere of the music was just right for nocturnal walks on cold,wintry nights! (Langgaard would have approved). I wish I had a cd label,I'd love to record a really first rate performance in state of the art sound. No 3 is another one. I can't even listen to the Hyperion cd after hearing the Pope performance. I don't really see the point! On the other hand,while I prefer the LSSO performance of No 10 (who doesn't?) I still find the Dutton recording provides an interestingly different perspective. The Hyperion third,on the other hand,while it's not a bad performance,just doesn't take off for me. It seems too staid. The Pope performance is wilder,more unpredictable.
I actually quite like a composer who composes pieces of music I don't like,or get,straightaway. It makes things more interesting. Something to puzzle over,mull over,tease apart!
(Although twenty years for the later symphonies?!! ??? :-[ ;D)

Maybe there'll be one of those big Warner style box sets of Brian symphonies one day. Like there was for Myaskovsky! I mean who could have predicted that?! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2013, 08:24:13 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 23, 2013, 08:17:21 AMMaybe there'll be one of those big Warner style box sets of Brian symphonies one day. Like there was for Myaskovsky! I mean who could have predicted that?! :o

Now, that would be something.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 23, 2013, 08:31:40 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 23, 2013, 08:17:21 AM
Maybe there'll be one of those big Warner style box sets of Brian symphonies one day. Like there was for Myaskovsky! I mean who could have predicted that?! :o

Yes, Brian needs a conductor/champion like Svetlanov/Myaskovsky or Rasilainen/Atterberg or Järvi/Tubin. But I don't see it happening in my lifetime  :(

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2013, 08:32:58 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 23, 2013, 08:31:40 AMBut I don't see it happening in my lifetime  :(

Mine either. :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 23, 2013, 08:35:10 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 23, 2013, 08:32:58 AM
Mine either. :(
Up to Kimi then!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2013, 08:38:15 AM
Quote from: springrite on December 23, 2013, 08:35:10 AMUp to Kimi then!


Ha!


I'm optimistic - I think we can expect at least one new Naxos CD with Brian symphonies, seeing the one with 22-24 is a success.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2013, 08:44:41 AM
Quote from: springrite on December 23, 2013, 08:35:10 AM
Up to Kimi then!

:P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 23, 2013, 08:46:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2013, 08:38:15 AM

Ha!


I'm optimistic - I think we can expect at least one new Naxos CD with Brian symphonies, seeing the one with 22-24 is a success.

Yes, I expect we'll see a few more recordings of the symphonies we don't yet have commercially. But what I don't see happening are new recordings in superb sound of the less well produced or performed symphonies, i.e., the Second and Third.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2013, 09:08:38 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 23, 2013, 08:46:25 AM
Yes, I expect we'll see a few more recordings of the symphonies we don't yet have commercially. But what I don't see happening are new recordings in superb sound of the less well produced or performed symphonies, i.e., the Second and Third.

Sarge


Yes, it would be great if the HBS made the re-recording of, especially, the Second Symphony a priority.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 23, 2013, 10:38:48 AM
Most of them have been recorded,though;albeit with the curious exception of No 5. Marco Polo were going to do that though,weren't they? I believe it was scuppered due to Brian Rayner Cook being in bad health or no being happy with his performance? (I'm going to have to search the thread!) While I'm all for a commercial recording,I have a feeling that,like the LSSO tenth & twenty second,Brianites will be returning more than often to the Rayner Cook. He really should have been able to put it down in a studio while in his prime. A Testament style issue of the broadcast performance would be ideal.
Still,there may be a singer out there with sufficient insight. I just hope it won't be another Mark Stone. His release was one of the most disappointing Brian cds ever imho! Although,the booklet notes about the individual songs were invaluable. I'd buy Volume 2 just for that! ;D

In my post on alternative recordings of the tenth I should have included Pope's 1958 premiere broadcast performance which is,of course,as most people know here,available as a free download on the HBS Society website (amongst a few others). I rather like the rough edged craggy power of this a bit more than the 'smoother',more disciplined,Dutton performance.

When they have finished with the unrecorded ones there will be little excuse not to re-record No 2. If the Mark Stone cd was the most disappointing Brian release ever,the Marco Polo performance of No 2,not to mention the abysmal recording quality,has to be the worst ever Brian release!  What a shapeless,amorphous muddy mess! One to file with the Danacord Louis Glass Plovdiv recordings. Why did they even bother? (His cycle may not (quite) live up to expectations,but his 3rd & 5th certainly deserve allot better!)
When you think of what Dacapo have done for Langgaard! Another maverick,whose legacy was in an even worse situation than Brian back in the late 70s/early 80s,when I sent off my postal orders for the original Danacord Lp of his Sixth symphony & Music of the Spheres! Will we ever see a collaborative production of 'The Tigers' involving one of our top opera houses,I wonder?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2013, 10:57:27 AM
Wow, that performance by Tony Rowe of Symphony No. 2 must be beyond abysmal. ;D Glad I haven't listened to it yet.

In Brian-related news, I received my Naxos recordings of Symphonies Nos. 20, 22, 23, 24, & 25. Looking forward to giving these a spin today.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2013, 11:09:46 AM
Good luck with those symphonies, John!


(Symphony No. 20 has a beautiful balance. It contains several lyrical passages that evoke an enormous loneliness. They never fail to move me.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on December 23, 2013, 11:47:12 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2013, 11:09:46 AM
Good luck with those symphonies, John!


(Symphony No. 20 has a beautiful balance. It contains several lyrical passages that evoke an enormous loneliness. They never fail to move me.)

Thanks, Johan. I look forward to digging into them. 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 24, 2013, 08:17:05 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2013, 11:09:46 AM
Good luck with those symphonies, John!


(Symphony No. 20 has a beautiful balance. It contains several lyrical passages that evoke an enormous loneliness. They never fail to move me.)
Do you mean 1) emotionally or 2) physically i.e. do you leave the room to avoid listening to it? :) I have a similar response to Bruckner if it's the latter.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 24, 2013, 08:18:17 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on December 22, 2013, 12:28:03 PM
Glad people are coming on board, and appreciation of Brian is growing, but it's a pity there aren't any new recordings in the pipeline for next year (as far as we know).

On another note, it's now almost two years since I discovered this forum and through it the BBC recordings of Brian (before that I only had the published CDs).

Thanks everyone for your erudite and of entertaining comments, thanks to John W for his scepticism :-)Happy Christmas and New Year!
I have no idea what you mean.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2013, 08:24:29 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 24, 2013, 08:17:05 AM
Do you mean 1) emotionally or 2) physically i.e. do you leave the room to avoid listening to it? :) I have a similar response to Bruckner if it's the latter.


You poor thing.


Quote from: John Whitmore on December 24, 2013, 08:18:17 AM
I have no idea what you mean.


Beats me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on December 24, 2013, 08:26:02 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2013, 08:24:29 AM



Beats me.
I for one am very skeptical about his skepticism.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 24, 2013, 10:11:45 AM
Compliments of Christmas Eve, Brianites: have a great festive season, and a prosperous 2014.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2013, 10:17:20 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 24, 2013, 10:11:45 AM
Compliments of Christmas Eve, Brianites: have a great festive season, and a prosperous 2014.


The same to you, Martyn!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on December 24, 2013, 10:49:46 PM
Merry Christmas all.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2013, 11:00:43 PM
And Merry Christmas to you, Steve!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 24, 2013, 11:42:43 PM
Quote from: Hattoff on December 24, 2013, 10:49:46 PM
Merry Christmas all.

And from me too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2013, 11:52:45 PM
Merry Christmas to the whole Davis family, Jeffrey!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 25, 2013, 12:20:48 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 24, 2013, 11:52:45 PM
Merry Christmas to the whole Davis family, Jeffrey!

And to you and Dunya Johan.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 25, 2013, 04:04:01 AM
Since many of the folks who regularly post in this thread don't get out much into the wider GMG world, you may have missed this short exchange in the Listening thread; it's relevant to our conversation about future Brian recordings:

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 23, 2013, 04:22:38 PM
Now:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/541/MI0003541683.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

A new acquisition. Listening to Symphony No. 22. I love how this symphony begins with almost an orchestral crescendo. Audio quality is excellent. I hope Walker continues to give us more Brian.

Quote from: madaboutmahler on December 24, 2013, 05:51:35 AM
Alexander Walker is one of my teachers so I can reassure that he is planning to record more!


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on December 25, 2013, 07:47:16 AM
Thank you for that Sarge, my admiration of Mahler has increased exponentially :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 31, 2013, 03:02:02 PM
Happy New Year to all my fellow Brianites!


[Page 300!]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 31, 2013, 04:18:35 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 31, 2013, 03:02:02 PM
Happy New Year to all my fellow Brianites!


[Page 300!]

And to you too Johan. Just received the new LSSO recordings of symphonies 10 and 22 etc. my New Year treat  :).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 01, 2014, 05:29:57 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 31, 2013, 04:18:35 PM
And to you too Johan. Just received the new LSSO recordings of symphonies 10 and 22 etc. my New Year treat   :).
I look forward to your honest opinion. Enjoy it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on January 01, 2014, 05:32:52 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 31, 2013, 03:02:02 PM
Happy New Year to all my fellow Brianites!


[Page 300!]

Brianites around the world, unite!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 01, 2014, 05:40:20 AM
Quote from: springrite on January 01, 2014, 05:32:52 AM
Brianites around the world, unite!


You have nothing to lose but your [fill in as appropriate]!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2014, 02:01:58 PM
Cross-posted from the 'Listening' thread -

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2014, 01:59:18 PM
Now:

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1014120_516677168386932_490933713_n.jpg)

A new acquisition. Listening to Symphony No. 10. My Dad came in my room and said "Who is that?!?!?" I said "This is 'Symphony No. 10' by Havergal Brian," and he replied "I want to burn CDs of every recording of his music you own." 8) Yeah, this is a really awesome performance.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 04, 2014, 02:53:48 PM
Clearly a man of taste!

Excellent news!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2014, 03:04:23 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 04, 2014, 02:53:48 PM
Clearly a man of taste!

Excellent news!

8) Yeah, I was very impressed by this performance of Symphony No. 10 and can certainly understand all of the enthusiasm from other Brianites regarding the quality of the performance. In comparison with Brabbins' 10th, I hear much more drive in the music and all-around intensity. Not to slight Brabbins, but he just can't compete with James Loughran here and while obviously the Royal Scottish National Orchestra are performing at a very high level, the energy from the Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra have them beat. The sheer amount of power in these teenagers' performances are on an incredibly high level.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 04, 2014, 03:07:36 PM
When I heard the Tenth for the first time, more than 30 years ago, I was completely obsessed by it. I am glad you are as impressed as every other Brianite has been. And you'll have made John Whitmore's day, when he wakes up...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 04, 2014, 03:31:30 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 04, 2014, 03:07:36 PM
When I heard the Tenth for the first time, more than 30 years ago, I was completely obsessed by it. I am glad you are as impressed as every other Brianite has been. And you'll have made John Whitmore's day, when he wakes up...

I can certainly hear why you became obsessed with the symphony. Yes and I enjoyed reading John's notes, too. 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on January 04, 2014, 09:04:44 PM
Darn! Now I have to order this version! Budget!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 07:22:11 AM
Quote from: springrite on January 04, 2014, 09:04:44 PM
Darn! Now I have to order this version! Budget!

Yep, these are some smoking performances, Paul. 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on January 05, 2014, 08:40:17 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 07:22:11 AM
Yep, these are some smoking performances, Paul. 8)

A bit expensive, too, no?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 08:42:27 AM
Quote from: springrite on January 05, 2014, 08:40:17 AM
A bit expensive, too, no?

I bought mine for $23 off of Presto, but your mileage may vary. :)

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=Haveral+Brian+First+Commercial+Recordings
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 05, 2014, 10:42:57 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 04, 2014, 03:07:36 PM
When I heard the Tenth for the first time, more than 30 years ago, I was completely obsessed by it. I am glad you are as impressed as every other Brianite has been. And you'll have made John Whitmore's day, when he wakes up...
zzzzzzzzzzzzzz..................LSSO 10th rules OK.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 05, 2014, 10:59:01 AM
Quote from: springrite on January 05, 2014, 08:40:17 AM
A bit expensive, too, no?
Not really. Around £14 for a newly engineered 2 CD transfer, super notes by MM and months of effort to find the CBS masters in the first place. A snip. Snap it up.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 05, 2014, 11:02:26 AM
From an earlier post by Mirror Image:
I said "This is 'Symphony No. 10' by Havergal Brian," and he replied "I want to burn CDs of every recording of his music you own." I feel the same about Bruckner. I think I will burn every CD that I own by that particular composer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 05, 2014, 11:59:09 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 05, 2014, 11:02:26 AM
From an earlier post by Mirror Image:
I said "This is 'Symphony No. 10' by Havergal Brian," and he replied "I want to burn CDs of every recording of his music you own." I feel the same about Bruckner. I think I will burn every CD that I own by that particular composer.

:P I meant my Dad wants to 'make copies' of all my Brian recordings.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on January 06, 2014, 03:17:51 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 05, 2014, 10:59:01 AM
Not really. Around £14 for a newly engineered 2 CD transfer, super notes by MM and months of effort to find the CBS masters in the first place. A snip. Snap it up.

Where? ON Amazon I only see ones for over $30
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 06, 2014, 04:37:39 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 05, 2014, 11:02:26 AM
From an earlier post by Mirror Image:
I said "This is 'Symphony No. 10' by Havergal Brian," and he replied "I want to burn CDs of every recording of his music you own." I feel the same about Bruckner. I think I will burn every CD that I own by that particular composer.
You actually have some Bruckner in your collection,John?!! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on January 06, 2014, 04:47:28 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 06, 2014, 04:37:39 AM
You actually have some Bruckner in your collection,John?!! :o

It is winter after all. John needs fuel.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 06, 2014, 05:13:09 AM
These might help,John! ;D

http://www.zipfires.com/us/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 06, 2014, 07:08:33 AM
Quote from: springrite on January 06, 2014, 03:17:51 AM
Where? ON Amazon I only see ones for over $30
$36.27 + 3.99 (from seller) shipping on Amazon.com! I see what you mean. Poor you! ??? :(  We're lucky here! ;D

My late mother liked Havergal Brian,MI! Maybe you're dad will be posting here soon?!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2014, 07:11:11 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 06, 2014, 07:08:33 AM

My late mother liked Havergal Brian,MI! Maybe you're dad will be posting here soon?!! ;D

You never know! 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 06, 2014, 08:10:14 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 06, 2014, 04:37:39 AM
You actually have some Bruckner in your collection,John?!! :o
Yep. 1 complete cycle and numerous ones from other sources. Amazing, I know, but true.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 06, 2014, 08:11:06 AM
Quote from: springrite on January 06, 2014, 03:17:51 AM
Where? ON Amazon I only see ones for over $30
In the UK it's £14. No idea about $US prices.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 08, 2014, 04:40:49 AM
The old Hager recording of orchestral music from The Tigers is being released by Heritage in February. Thought you would like to know.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on January 08, 2014, 04:43:12 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 06, 2014, 08:11:06 AM
In the UK it's £14. No idea about $US prices.

Well, £14 is about $23 these days.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 09, 2014, 01:15:03 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 08, 2014, 04:40:49 AM
The old Hager recording of orchestral music from The Tigers is being released by Heritage in February. Thought you would like to know.
The Heritage coupling will be John Foulds: Pasquinade Symphonique no. 1

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 09, 2014, 02:00:55 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 09, 2014, 01:15:03 AM
The Heritage coupling will be John Foulds: Pasquinade Symphonique no. 1


That was there in the original box, 'Masters of the English Musical Renaissance'. So they gave Parry a miss.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on January 09, 2014, 04:57:10 AM
I would rather get the Heritage recording, if nothing else because I dig the cover! I see Amazon only has the Unicorn one... The price is acceptable. Pondering...

The other CD I would like to add is the Dutton Volume One. I have volume Two.

Again, these are not available at Amazon right now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 09, 2014, 05:43:54 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 09, 2014, 02:00:55 AM

That was there in the original box, 'Masters of the English Musical Renaissance'. So they gave Parry a miss.
That's a pity! The original Forlane Parry third was one of my most played Lp recordings and I still,marginally,prefer it to the 'boomy' sounding Chandos recording. A lovely work full of beautiful melodies and foot tapping tunes! Having said that,I can see the logic. Brian and Parry,two 20th C mavericks. Parry a famous teacher and academic,in his own day and the composer of some very fine,unduly neglected,music. Very much a man of his particular era! I particularly like the last three symphonies;but the Second ('The Cambridge) described in the Forlane booklet as "correct in it's procedures to a fault" and "suffering from an academic chill which is another definition of dullness" (!) is also very satisfying! The Fifth is quite masterly. Yet,I have a special fondness for No 3 as it was the first one I ever heard!!
Missing out Parry should also mean avoiding that rather annoying break between 'Lacryma' and 'Green Pastures',during Brian's Symphonic Movements from 'The Tigers',where you had to switch between cd1 and cd2. (I made a cdr so I could enjoy them without interruption!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 09, 2014, 06:27:48 AM
Quote from: springrite on January 09, 2014, 04:57:10 AM
I would rather get the Heritage recording, if nothing else because I dig the cover! I see Amazon only has the Unicorn one... The price is acceptable. Pondering...

The other CD I would like to add is the Dutton Volume One. I have volume Two.

Again, these are not available at Amazon right now.
The Unicorn transfer is dry and nasty. Also, it's just symphs 10 and 21. The Heritage is a double Cd.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 09, 2014, 07:01:56 AM
And Unicorn was also one of the label affected by the dreaded cd rot (turns bronze colour),wasn't it? It might be okay,of course,but I'm sure that marvellous Measham recording of Barber I played the other day looked a bit on the bronze side. Maybe it was just the light! And please don't let my newly acquired Faberman Gliere set be affected by this!! ??? Pearl was particularly badly affected,judging by some cds in my collection. I am given to understand that while there is no cure once it starts,you can slow the process down a little with acid free sleeves or cases? I loved their approach to historic recordings. I'm really looking forward to Heritage reissues of their catalogue. I read somewhere that they are doing the whole lot!
I hope so. Not that I can afford them all! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on January 09, 2014, 07:03:51 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 09, 2014, 06:27:48 AM
The Unicorn transfer is dry and nasty. Also, it's just symphs 10 and 21. The Heritage is a double Cd.

WHere can I order this, and the Toccata 1 (Psalm, Elegy, English Suites etc.)?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 09, 2014, 07:52:33 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 09, 2014, 07:01:56 AM
And Unicorn was also one of the label affected by the dreaded cd rot (turns bronze colour),wasn't it? It might be okay,of course,but I'm sure that marvellous Measham recording of Barber I played the other day looked a bit on the bronze side. Maybe it was just the light! And please don't let my newly acquired Faberman Gliere set be affected by this!! ??? Pearl was particularly badly affected,judging by some cds in my collection. I am given to understand that while there is no cure once it starts,you can slow the process down a little with acid free sleeves or cases? I loved their approach to historic recordings. I'm really looking forward to Heritage reissues of their catalogue. I read somewhere that they are doing the whole lot!
I hope so. Not that I can afford them all! :(
I've just copied some of my bronze discs and put them to one side just in case.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 09, 2014, 07:57:38 AM
Quote from: springrite on January 09, 2014, 07:03:51 AM
WHere can I order this, and the Toccata 1 (Psalm, Elegy, English Suites etc.)?
The original nasty sounding Unicorn 20/21 will probably be available second hand on Ebay or Amazon. They usually fetch between £20 and £30 which is quite ridiculous. The Heritage double - you can just buy it brand new via your usual suppliers, whoever they may be.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on January 09, 2014, 07:59:19 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 09, 2014, 07:57:38 AM
The original nasty sounding Unicorn 20/21 will probably be available second hand on Ebay or Amazon. They usually fetch between £20 and £30 which is quite ridiculous. The Heritage double - you can just buy it brand new via your usual suppliers, whoever they may be.

Well, my "usual" suppliers don't have it. So I am still looking.

As you can see, I don't have that many usual suppliers...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on January 09, 2014, 08:08:56 AM
Ah! See them at Presto!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on January 09, 2014, 08:24:51 AM
Bought both as well as the cello concerto. I am looking forward to them as I am running out of Brian recordings to listen to!

Believe it or not, at intermissions of my trainings (4 days in China and three days coming up in Singapore) I have been playing Brian! I did not notice severe adverse reactions from the attendees. Yesterday it was Symphony #10.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 09, 2014, 08:33:17 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 09, 2014, 07:52:33 AM
I've just copied some of my bronze discs and put them to one side just in case.
Even the most bronzed Pearl cds play so far!  I've made copies and back-ups. Ridiculous,really,though! I can't remember any Lps I bought ever rotting! ::) They obviously had their good points. Interestingly,Dutton,and now Chandos,are issuing Lps again! What next,new video tapes of movies?!! Well you never know?!! You can still buy new Super 8 cine film!!!!

springrite: Presto,they're good!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 09, 2014, 10:18:23 AM
Quote from: springrite on January 09, 2014, 08:24:51 AM

Believe it or not, at intermissions of my trainings (4 days in China and three days coming up in Singapore) I have been playing Brian! I did not notice severe adverse reactions from the attendees. Yesterday it was Symphony #10.

'Brian in China' - the opera we're all waiting for.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 09, 2014, 02:46:31 PM
And then of course there's 'Turandot'! ;D

Hope you find a good price 'springrite'!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on January 10, 2014, 06:13:00 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 09, 2014, 02:46:31 PM
And then of course there's 'Turandot'! ;D

Hope you find a good price 'springrite'!
The prices are good.
I would certainly get recordings of Brian operas when and if available. I love the orchestral excerpts (Toccata 2).

I played Elegy for the final intermission for the final day of the training (Day 4). Again, no adverse reactions. Should I throw Siegeslied at them in Singapore?  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 10, 2014, 07:11:39 AM
"Should I throw Siegeslied at them in Singapore?"


With murderous intent?


(Just joking. John Whitmore will take it seriously.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 10, 2014, 07:37:18 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 10, 2014, 07:11:39 AM
"Should I throw Siegeslied at them in Singapore?"


With murderous intent?


(Just joking. John Whitmore will take it seriously.)
They will throw it back with some force. What have the people of Singapore ever done to upset you?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mozart Dave on January 10, 2014, 11:21:30 AM
It's about time the Proms featured Havergal Brian.  How about a cycle of his Symphonies
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 11, 2014, 05:02:17 AM
Well,they've done the Gothic;but that's the all too obvious one! Anyway,I think the Sixth,eighth or tenth would make a better impression on the 'unbelievers'!
And how about the Violin Concerto,which has had favourable reviews even from those not normally sympathetic to the Brian cause?!! This would be a fantastic choice for a Prom and reveal another side to Brian which might enhance his reputation.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 15, 2014, 09:55:33 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 11, 2014, 05:02:17 AM
Well,they've done the Gothic;but that's the all too obvious one! Anyway,I think the Sixth,eighth or tenth would make a better impression on the 'unbelievers'!
And how about the Violin Concerto,which has had favourable reviews even from those not normally sympathetic to the Brian cause?!! This would be a fantastic choice for a Prom and reveal another side to Brian which might enhance his reputation.

8,9 or 10 would be terrific.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 21, 2014, 07:22:17 AM
The HB thread is a nice,safe feeling refuge from the increasingly heated debate about David Wright at the Art Music Forum!! ??? ::)

No padlocked thread,here! Unless anyone wants an argument?!! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 21, 2014, 07:25:23 AM
I saw it. I only contributed a strictly musical comment to the debate...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 21, 2014, 07:32:11 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 21, 2014, 07:25:23 AM
I saw it. I only contributed a strictly musical comment to the debate...
A clever move on your part!
Me? I'm yellow,I'm saying out of it!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 21, 2014, 07:37:03 AM
I ain't chicken myself, but I can put my time to better use...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 21, 2014, 07:38:33 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 21, 2014, 07:22:17 AM
Unless anyone wants an argument?!! ??? ;D


http://www.youtube.com/v/D4d8PHDG4yE
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 21, 2014, 07:44:42 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 23, 2014, 05:21:31 AM
BBC Radio 3 are doing a 'Best of British' feature for 2014, encouraging listeners to phone in with their suggestions of favourite/great music written by British composers. Today (Thursday) at c. 7.40am (British time) someone phoned in to explain their enthusiasm for Havergal Brian - they then played a recording of 'The Tinker's Wedding'. I had forgotten how good the central section is, reminding me of Sibelius and Hovhaness. I hope that Johan was listening.  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 23, 2014, 05:25:40 AM
No, I wasn't, Jeffrey...  :o Still, good news! Any Brian on the radio is a cause for (modest) celebration.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 23, 2014, 05:30:44 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 23, 2014, 05:25:40 AM
No, I wasn't, Jeffrey...  :o Still, good news! Any Brian on the radio is a cause for (modest) celebration.

Can you pick it up on BBC iPlayer in darkest Netherlands Johan?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 23, 2014, 05:34:46 AM
Yes...  ;D  I'll have a look (and a listen) .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 23, 2014, 05:36:14 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 23, 2014, 05:34:46 AM
Yes...  ;D

Excellent! I think that you would enjoy the short discussion (the man who phoned in had attended the performance of the Gothic in the 1960s).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 23, 2014, 05:38:57 AM
Found it!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03q5csx (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03q5csx)


And now the whole thing itself (the man who phoned + the piece). Looking looking...


It's between 1:10:20 and 1:19:40! (Jeffrey was right)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 23, 2014, 11:22:56 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 23, 2014, 05:38:57 AM
Found it!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03q5csx (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03q5csx)


And now the whole thing itself (the man who phoned + the piece). Looking looking...


It's between 1:10:20 and 1:19:40! (Jeffrey was right)

Delighted you found it Johan.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mountain Goat on January 24, 2014, 04:20:39 AM
I caught the start of the programme while driving to work, an overture by Brian was announced as "coming up" but sadly arrived at work too soon!  :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on January 24, 2014, 04:26:40 AM
Quote from: Mountain Goat on January 24, 2014, 04:20:39 AM
I caught the start of the programme while driving to work, an overture by Brian was announced as "coming up" but sadly arrived at work too soon!  :(

Well, otherwise you'd have to explain your late arrival by saying "I was waiting for an overture by Brian!" and I wonder what the boss would think of that! (It'd be even more interesting if one of the co-workers is named Brian)...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 24, 2014, 04:29:17 AM
Hahaha! (on the train, almost in Amsterdam)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mountain Goat on January 24, 2014, 05:14:31 AM
Quote from: springrite on January 24, 2014, 04:26:40 AM
Well, otherwise you'd have to explain your late arrival by saying "I was waiting for an overture by Brian!" and I wonder what the boss would think of that! (It'd be even more interesting if one of the co-workers is named Brian)...

According to the timings on the Radio 3 website I would have had to wait almost an hour, so I don't think he would have been too impressed. I did once arrive 5 minutes late because they were playing Shostakovich's 5th symphony, having listened to it from the start I wasn't going to switch off so close to the end - you have to get your priorities right!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2014, 12:38:59 PM
Quote from: springrite on January 24, 2014, 04:26:40 AM
Well, otherwise you'd have to explain your late arrival by saying "I was waiting for an overture by Brian!" and I wonder what the boss would think of that! (It'd be even more interesting if one of the co-workers is named Brian)...

V funny  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2014, 12:42:36 PM
Quote from: Mountain Goat on January 24, 2014, 05:14:31 AM
According to the timings on the Radio 3 website I would have had to wait almost an hour, so I don't think he would have been too impressed. I did once arrive 5 minutes late because they were playing Shostakovich's 5th symphony, having listened to it from the start I wasn't going to switch off so close to the end - you have to get your priorities right!

Yes, I've done this before, sitting in my car waiting for a work to end before going into work. Once, sitting in my car listening to work a colleague spotted me just sitting there and assumed that I couldn't face going into work and that he would have to try and coax me out of my car! Still, I bet that nobody else here has driven past a bus called 'Havergal Brian' on their way to work (in Brighton, not far from Brian's old home in Shoreham).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 26, 2014, 07:13:39 AM
Delighted to hear again the Symphony 22 on the new Heritage release. I think that this school's performance actually has greater conviction than the professional Naxos recording. The greatest, certainly most enjoyable of Brian's late symphonies I think., looking forward to hearing the English Suite No 5 again, which I last heard in the days of LP.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on January 27, 2014, 03:56:25 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 26, 2014, 07:13:39 AM
Delighted to hear again the Symphony 22 on the new Heritage release. I think that this school's performance actually has greater conviction than the professional Naxos recording. The greatest, certainly most enjoyable of Brian's late symphonies I think., looking forward to hearing the English Suite No 5 again, which I last heard in the days of LP.
Glad you like it. I think the Heritage 22 has more bite and atmosphere (close mic'd recording quality?) than the Naxos but obviously the Naxos has far superior orchestral playing in a more natural acoustic. You pay your money and take your choice. The suite (a bit Decca Phase Four-ish) is a tad scrappy here and there but the Elegy sounds good and the orchestra pulls it off.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 27, 2014, 08:42:11 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on January 27, 2014, 03:56:25 AM
Glad you like it. I think the Heritage 22 has more bite and atmosphere (close mic'd recording quality?) than the Naxos but obviously the Naxos has far superior orchestral playing in a more natural acoustic. You pay your money and take your choice. The suite (a bit Decca Phase Four-ish) is a tad scrappy here and there but the Elegy sounds good and the orchestra pulls it off.

Totally agree. Enjoying Psalm 23 now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on February 01, 2014, 11:39:36 PM
What is Symphony 13 like? My favourites are 1,2,3 6,7,8,9,10,16 and 22. I wonder how it compared with them. I ask as there is now a recording available.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 02, 2014, 01:01:05 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 01, 2014, 11:39:36 PM
What is Symphony 13 like? My favourites are 1,2,3 6,7,8,9,10,16 and 22. I wonder how it compared with them. I ask as there is now a recording available.


Sorry for reacting so late, Jeffrey...


Symphony No. 13? It inhabits some of the same territory as those 'middle' symphonies 6-12, but has a slightly different feel to it. It is not as cogent and compelling as, say, symphonies 6, 8 and 10. When you reach the (triumphant) ending, you don't get the feeling Brian really has overcome anything, to be honest. But the ride in itself is very enjoyable. I love the work (it would be revolutionary if I didn't, as a confirmed Brianite). There are some great moments in this symphony, which I wouldn't miss for the world. But Symphony No. 13 isn't the work I'd hold up as one of the great Brianic masterpieces. As for Brabbins's performance - it is good, but I prefer the first (BBC) performance ever, under Stanley Pope, which has never been issued commercially...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 01, 2014, 09:44:44 PM
Over at the Art-Music Forum someone with inside knowledge is hinting that a new HB disk is going to come from Dutton later this year.

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 02, 2014, 04:33:53 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 01, 2014, 09:44:44 PM
Over at the Art-Music Forum someone with inside knowledge is hinting that a new HB disk is going to come from Dutton later this year.

:)

Looking forward to it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 02, 2014, 05:10:49 AM
Thanks, calyptorhynchus. I'm hoping for a recording of symphonies 14 and 27. Or a re-recording of No. 2.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 03, 2014, 01:56:49 AM
From the latest HBS Newsletter, which arrived in my Inbox a few minutes ago:

Following  the  enthusiastic  critical
response  to  the  recent  Naxos  disc  of  Symphonies  22-24
and  English  Suite  no.  1  performed  by  Alexander  Walker
and the New Russia State Symphony Orchestra, we have
agreed  to  fund  a  follow-up  disc  which  plugs  a  couple  of
other  gaps  in  the  availability  of  Brian's  symphonies  on
CD.  Again  with  the  New  Russia  State  Symphony
Orchestra,  Alexander  Walker  will  be  conducting
symphonies  6,  28,  29  and  31;  a  balance  between  first
recordings  (28  and  29)  and  new  versions  of  symphonies
first laid down in the 1970s (no. 6) and 80s (no. 31). The
recording sessions will take place in Moscow in late May
2014. If the rapidity of the first disc's issue is  anything to
go by, we would expect this one to be issued in early 2015.

Then,  only  two  months  later  on  July  25th  and  27th,  our
President  Martyn  Brabbins  and  the  Royal  Scottish
National  Orchestra  will  return  to  the  studio  again  for  a
third  Brian  disc  for  Dutton  Records.  The  day  between
sessions is because on the 26th, Martyn is conducting at a
special Commonwealth Games concert featuring both the
RSNO and the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra! Details
of  the  disc's  programme  will  be  published  in  the  next
Newsletter  but  we  can  already  say  that  this  CD  will plug
some  other  notable  gaps  in  the  Brian
discography. Dutton's practice is not to let recordings  sit
around for very long at all, so we would expect this disc to
be available before Christmas this year.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 03, 2014, 11:04:21 AM
Fantastic news.

The Fredman 6 and th eGroves 31 are fine recordings, but it'll be good to have alternatives to compare, 28 and 29 will be eagerly awaited.

As for the Dutton, it's good that the different recording projects for unrecorded works haven't overlapped so far, so I look forward to... 14, 19, 26, 27?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 03, 2014, 11:09:01 AM
I'd be very pleased if 14, 19 and 27 were to be recorded. They should fit on one CD.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 03, 2014, 01:05:43 PM
I'd sooner have 19, 26, 27.

The first movement of 26, as far as I can judge, seems to have a good 'feel' to it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 03, 2014, 01:20:29 PM
It's been a while, but that first movement didn't seem to be as 'bad' as MM made it out to be. But I still prefer 14! And 2 needs a new recording very badly. The Mackerras is okay, of course (on Klassic Haus).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 03, 2014, 01:26:09 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 02, 2014, 01:01:05 PM

Sorry for reacting so late, Jeffrey...


Symphony No. 13? It inhabits some of the same territory as those 'middle' symphonies 6-12, but has a slightly different feel to it. It is not as cogent and compelling as, say, symphonies 6, 8 and 10. When you reach the (triumphant) ending, you don't get the feeling Brian really has overcome anything, to be honest. But the ride in itself is very enjoyable. I love the work (it would be revolutionary if I didn't, as a confirmed Brianite). There are some great moments in this symphony, which I wouldn't miss for the world. But Symphony No. 13 isn't the work I'd hold up as one of the great Brianic masterpieces. As for Brabbins's performance - it is good, but I prefer the first (BBC) performance ever, under Stanley Pope, which has never been issued commercially...

Many thanks Johan.
Title: The Mad Maid's Song on YouTube
Post by: Augustus on March 17, 2014, 03:04:20 AM
The Mad Maid's Song from the forthcoming Volume 2 of the Complete Havergal Brian Songbook on Stone Records has appeared on YouTube (link below).  I don't think I've seen this reported here yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpCYzMuBMHc
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 17, 2014, 03:12:08 AM
Thanks! Malcolm MacDonald put up a link on his Facebook Wall yesterday. I forgot that not everyone is on FB (or friends with MM, for that matter!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 17, 2014, 08:48:22 AM
Thank you very much Augustus! I await this release with some trepidation,I fear! The booklet notes were exemplary,though. I wish every cd label took that much care. Copious information about every single song. Brian chose some pretty obscure poets including his own landlord!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 18, 2014, 02:26:21 AM
Isn't it strange how people have different tastes. I simply can't stand songs like this (lieder and all that). Schubert, Tippett, Britten, Brian etc etc. Can't stand any of them. I refer pop music quite frankly. Give me Cat Stevens and Bob Dylan any day of the week.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2014, 05:49:56 AM
Actually,I don't normally like English song,or lieder! The original 'Brian Rayner Cook sings Havergal Brian's greatest hits' album  ;D is an exception,however!  (Hopefully,rumours that Barbra Streisand is releasing her own version are untrue!) Other than that,I think I'd rather listen to Bob Dylan too,at least before the bounder sold out and went electric! I also,enjoyed listening to Led Zeppelin iv,Houses of the Holy and Emerson Lake & Palmer's Trilogy album,Blood,Sweat & Tears,The Velvet Underground & Nico and all three Janis Joplin albums a few weeks ago,amongst other musical fare!!
It's been Gilbert and Sullivan for the last few days,though. Albeit,the Victorian geezers,not the seventies pop singer with the flat cap!
I have a feeling you're a big fan of Gilbert and Sullivan fan,John! A bone fide Savoyard,who knows all the words to 'The Mikado' like the back of his proverbial!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on March 19, 2014, 01:53:46 PM
Sym. 1 "Gothic" Hyperion

2 Naxos

3 Hyperion

4 Leaper w/12

5

6 Lyrita w/Cooke

7 EMI2cd
8 EMI2cd
9 EMI2cd

10 Unicorn-K w/21; Dutton w/30; Heretige w/21-22

11 Leaper w/15

12 Leaper w/4

13 Dutton w/Violin Cto.

14

15 Leaper w/11

16 Lyrita w/Cooke

17 Leaper w/32

18 Leaper w/Violin Cto.

19

20 Naxos 1

21 Unicorn-K w/10; Heretige w/10 & 22

22 Naxos2; Heretige w/10 & 21
23 Naxos2
24 Naxos2

25 Naxos1

26

27

28

29

30 Dutton w/10

31 EMI2cd

32 Leaper w/17

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 20, 2014, 12:57:54 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 18, 2014, 05:49:56 AM
Actually,I don't normally like English song,or lieder! The original 'Brian Rayner Cook sings Havergal Brian's greatest hits' album  ;D is an exception,however!  (Hopefully,rumours that Barbra Streisand is releasing her own version are untrue!) Other than that,I think I'd rather listen to Bob Dylan too,at least before the bounder sold out and went electric! I also,enjoyed listening to Led Zeppelin iv,Houses of the Holy and Emerson Lake & Palmer's Trilogy album,Blood,Sweat & Tears,The Velvet Underground & Nico and all three Janis Joplin albums a few weeks ago,amongst other musical fare!!
It's been Gilbert and Sullivan for the last few days,though. Albeit,the Victorian geezers,not the seventies pop singer with the flat cap!
I have a feeling you're a big fan of Gilbert and Sullivan fan,John! A bone fide Savoyard,who knows all the words to 'The Mikado' like the back of his proverbial!!!!

You may have posted this sort of tongue in cheek but I actually love the G and S stuff. As a teenager I generated extra pocket money by playing in pit orchestras. My first experience was Pirates (New Parks School, Leicester. I still have the programme!!) and I thought it was brilliant. It's still my favourite along with Trial by Jury. Over the years I played in Iolanthe, Gondoliers, Pinafore (NOT keen on this one) and Mikado. OK, all the plots are the same and the music is written to a formula but I happen to think that the formula is rather good. Playing 2nd violin in G and S is just about the easiest job you can think of. "Tum te tum" sight reading. Between numbers you could just sit in the pit reading about Leicester City's latest triumph in the Sports Mercury. Heady days indeed. Electric Dylan? Blood on the Tracks/Blonde on Blonde? Love 'em.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 20, 2014, 01:40:55 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on March 19, 2014, 01:53:46 PM
Sym. 1 "Gothic" Hyperion

2 Naxos

3 Hyperion

4 Leaper

5

6 Lyrita w/Cooke

7 EMI2cd
8 EMI2cd
9 EMI2cd

10 Unicorn-K w/21; Dutton w/30

11 Leaper w/15

12

13 Dutton w/Violin Cto.

14

15 Leaper w/11

16 Lyrita w/Cooke

17 Leaper w/32

18 Leaper w/Violin Cto.

19

20 Naxos 1

21 Unicorn-K w/10

22 Naxos2
23 Naxos2
24 Naxos2

25 Naxos1

26

27

28

29

30 Dutton w/10

31 EMI2cd

32 Leaper w/17

I assume this is a list of HB commercial recordings? If so - here's one that's missing. Heritage double CD set, Symphs 10/21/22 LSSO 70s recordings. Also, there are some decent refurbs to be hunted out on Klassic Haus. Or is this just a list of CDs that you own?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 20, 2014, 06:22:45 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 20, 2014, 12:57:54 AM
You may have posted this sort of tongue in cheek but I actually love the G and S stuff. As a teenager I generated extra pocket money by playing in pit orchestras. My first experience was Pirates (New Parks School, Leicester. I still have the programme!!) and I thought it was brilliant. It's still my favourite along with Trial by Jury. Over the years I played in Iolanthe, Gondoliers, Pinafore (NOT keen on this one) and Mikado. OK, all the plots are the same and the music is written to a formula but I happen to think that the formula is rather good. Playing 2nd violin in G and S is just about the easiest job you can think of. "Tum te tum" sight reading. Between numbers you could just sit in the pit reading about Leicester City's latest triumph in the Sports Mercury. Heady days indeed. Electric Dylan? Blood on the Tracks/Blonde on Blonde? Love 'em.
Actually,I was thinking you might like them,partly because some people are a bit snooty about them!! ::) ;D
Formulaic,but what a formula!! And no wonder you like G & S!! I've been ploughing through a pile of them over the last few days. D'oyly Carte,Sargent (yes he's slow,but some great vintage singing). Oh,and the Ohio Light opera for the ones without dialogue. I thought their Ruddigore was very good! I think we just don't like the Yanks doing G & S. They're our property,gerroff!!!! (Although,some of their earlier recordings were a bit dodgy!! ??? As to favourite G & S! Funnily enough,my favourite when I was a youngster was 'The Pirates of Penzance',especially in the old Decca recording with Owen Brannigan as a brilliantly OTT Seargent of Police! Also,John Reed doing the patter songs in 'Iolanthe','HMS Pinafore' (etc). Well,I listened to what was in the local library!! The Decca 'Ruddigore' with a great supernatural plot really should have had dialogue though. And by the way,thank you to the Ohio Light Opera for including this in your recording and sacking your worst singers before taping it!!! Incidentally,anyone who does like G & S with the dialogue. The Art Music Forum has got all the 1980's BBC recordings there for download. And very good they are too! G & S only went wrong with 'Utopia Limited' and 'The Grand Duke'. But even they're worth a listen. They just haven't got such great tunes.....but I need another go at them!!

Your lot up north seem allot more musical than my contemporaries were in west wales. At school all the singers in the G & S were tone deaf! Ohio Light Opera take note! The deputy head had to keep everybody in Assembly until someone volunteered to join the G & S production. They had the cane then,of course!! ??? ;D

As to whether this post has any place in a HB thread? Well,erm,maybe.....maybe,Havergal Brian liked Gilbert and Sullivan.....or used the local production to take a sneaky look at the Sports pages of his favourite periodical?!!! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 20, 2014, 07:30:33 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 20, 2014, 06:22:45 AM
Well,erm,maybe.....maybe,Havergal Brian liked Gilbert and Sullivan.....

He wrote:

"The history of that association permanently maintains in the series of comic operas masterpieces which we cherish under the name of Savoy Opera. Here is something indubitably English and having all the national characteristics of savoir faire and subtlety; something which no other nation possesses: superior to Johann Strauss or Offenbach.[...]His music is a facile blend showing Irish ancestry and his absorption in English life. No English composer was ever more cosmopolitan in his outlook, nor had any other such a gift of sparking melody. In this respect he rivals the composer on whom he set his heart, Franz Schubert."

So yes, he appears to like G & S.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on March 20, 2014, 07:32:43 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 20, 2014, 01:40:55 AM
I assume this is a list of HB commercial recordings? If so - here's one that's missing. Heritage double CD set, Symphs 10/21/22 LSSO 70s recordings. Also, there are some decent refurbs to be hunted out on Klassic Haus. Or is this just a list of CDs that you own?

I just wanted to get to the bottom of all this Brian hysteria! So, really, there are still works not available? That's pretty sad,... but anyhow, WHERE DO I START? I'd prefer the short and craggy bits to the 'Gothic'- I'm sure I can handle the worst that Brian has to offer. I'm in a malipiero mood lately, and assume Brian is a close relative in the wayward department. C'mon, give me something out of the way...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 20, 2014, 07:48:40 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on March 20, 2014, 07:32:43 AM
I just wanted to get to the bottom of all this Brian hysteria! So, really, there are still works not available? That's pretty sad,... but anyhow, WHERE DO I START? I'd prefer the short and craggy bits to the 'Gothic'- I'm sure I can handle the worst that Brian has to offer. I'm in a malipiero mood lately, and assume Brian is a close relative in the wayward department. C'mon, give me something out of the way...
Symphony #10
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 20, 2014, 08:08:41 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on March 20, 2014, 07:32:43 AM
I just wanted to get to the bottom of all this Brian hysteria! So, really, there are still works not available?

All the symphonies are available in one form or another. If you are interested in a symphony not commercially available, just ask for it here and you will be blessed  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on March 20, 2014, 08:49:17 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on March 19, 2014, 01:53:46 PM

8 EMI2cd
9 EMI2cd

10 Unicorn-K w/21; Dutton w/30; Heretige w/21-22

11 Leaper w/15

12

13 Dutton w/Violin Cto.

14

15 Leaper w/11



You've missed 12, which is the coupling to the Naxos/Leaper 4
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 20, 2014, 08:57:19 AM
Or join the AMF (Art Music Forum). They've got practically everything extant that Brian ever wrote (and allot more) in their music 'library'.
Not sure about the hysteria bit,though. Brian is a bit cult-y,I suppose. I mean,why not Bantock,Holbrooke or Cyril Scott? The latter wrote books on the occult and new age type stuff,so there's plenty of material for a devoted following to get on with! I actually think Scott is underrated on these music forums. I was listening to his First Piano concerto last night. I remember Johan liked this one. What a fantastic score. There is literally nothing else like it in British music. And I love the Fourth symphony. It has a steely quality which makes me think of late Debussy. Fantastic! And I love the way he brings the theme back in the final movement. The third symphony and the Neptune suite are show stoppers. And his chamber and instrumental music is fascinating. I actually prefer his piano music to that of Bax or Ireland,to be honest and I think that is one area in which Scott is actually an important figure. Albeit,on a domestic level. Maybe he needed a Robert Simpson at the BBC? A documentary like the Unknown Warrior,or the stupendous LSSO to bolster his fortunes? Or maybe he just should have composed just one colossal symphony for hundreds of performers?!!

And then there is Bax! Another candidate! All those Celtic legends,a torrid affair,a wacky pseudonym and Irish nationalism,infatuations,a wealthy man living in rented rooms in romantic,wind blown landscapes. What more could a potential devoted cult following want?!! Maybe he just didn't write big enough?!! The only one lasting over an hour is an early one and it's not much cop!!
He got allot better after that! ;D



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 20, 2014, 11:55:26 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on March 20, 2014, 07:32:43 AM
I just wanted to get to the bottom of all this Brian hysteria! So, really, there are still works not available? That's pretty sad,... but anyhow, WHERE DO I START? I'd prefer the short and craggy bits to the 'Gothic'- I'm sure I can handle the worst that Brian has to offer. I'm in a malipiero mood lately, and assume Brian is a close relative in the wayward department. C'mon, give me something out of the way...
The recent Naxos cd of symphonies 22-24. Cheap on Amazon,too! These symphonies might well be described as short and craggy as opposed to short and sweet! ;D

Going on about Cyril Scott led to my spotting a British Music Society cd of his Piano Quintet (coupled with the Frank Bridge) on Amazon which I haven't got. I bought a cheap copy from a seller! I also finally bought the original Plasson emi release of the third symphony Of Ropartz yesterday,which I have been trying to get for ages!! The price is always sky high when I look. This one was under £10!! So much for saving :( ,but I've got it at last!! :) (Hopefully,the cd will work!!!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 20, 2014, 01:32:28 PM
Hey synprrr

I'm sure you will love Havergal Brian, and I don't think his music is a cult, as with so many other cases it is simply that the mainstream is so ridiculously narrow that fine composers are neglected.

I would echo starting with 10, because it's a very powerful symphony, and, although complex, not difficult to grasp. It also stands near the divide between early and late Brian (though being Brian this break is around his 70s!). From the 10th you can explore backwards into his early works or forward into his late works. Just a word of warning, the pace of Brian music is relatively normal in his earlier works (though there are abrupt transitions). In his later works the pace picks up considerably, so in some later works he is operating at Haydnesque speeds; if you are following sleeve-notes which speak of broad lyrical passage, for example, you should know it probably won't last for longer than 30 seconds!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on March 21, 2014, 09:08:59 AM
Great news about both the Naxos and Dutton projects,

:)

but 2013 passed without the Testament issue of The Tigers. Is this 1983 broadcast still planned for release or has it been shelved?

:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on March 21, 2014, 11:25:12 AM
Quote from: springrite on March 20, 2014, 07:48:40 AM
Symphony #10

Well, of course, that's the 'famous' one I've enjoyed on YT. I'd like to try something really oddball, or problematic- more hairballs please!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 21, 2014, 01:07:31 PM
Well, try number 4!

Some people round here can't stand it, others think it is very clever, but vulnerable to being misunderstood.

It's a setting one of the more militaristic psalms, in German, lasts about 45 minutes and in places is unbearably loud and overbearing. One school of though holds it is simply a mistake with Brian unwisely revelling in the worship of 'Macht und Kraft', others that it is a clever parody of German militarism intended to warn German audiences of the dangers of rising Nazism. Others simply dislike the entire concept whatever its purpose.

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 21, 2014, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: snyprrr on March 21, 2014, 11:25:12 AM
Well, of course, that's the 'famous' one I've enjoyed on YT. I'd like to try something really oddball, or problematic- more hairballs please!!
Have you tried No3? It's on a big scale. It started off as a piano concerto,I believe,and then Brian turned it into a symphony. The piano concerto bits are still there;so it's a bit like a huge symphony with a concerto gatecrashing bits. It's actually my favourite Brian symphony! The Pope recording,available at the AMF forum,is much,much better than the Hyperion one.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 21, 2014, 03:55:15 PM
Quote from: Albion on March 21, 2014, 09:08:59 AM
Great news about both the Naxos and Dutton projects,

:)

but 2013 passed without the Testament issue of The Tigers. Is this 1983 broadcast still planned for release or has it been shelved?

:(

Hi, John! The latest HBS Newsletter had an apology and update re The Tigers: due to 'unforeseen circumstances' the release date has had to be pushed back into 2014. But The Tigers will roar!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on March 27, 2014, 09:43:55 AM
Thanks, Johan. It's great news that the project hasn't hit the buffers - I'm sure that many of us are greatly looking forward to this commercial release later in the year which will surprise many who regard Brian as an intractable prospect. The Toccata release gave us a superlative account the orchestral symphonic variations Has anyone here seen Kelly?, but this music really demands to be heard in it's operatic context.

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 06, 2014, 12:21:14 PM
Will read immediately!!!


Update: I DID read it before!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 06, 2014, 12:22:49 PM
Don't worry,I'll give you time to read! ;D

(Update 23:32 I have removed the IRR review which Johan refers to!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 06, 2014, 12:24:18 PM
How are things, cilgwyn? I have been enjoying listening to the Recordings Library of the HBS, which is now online (for members). A sort of Brian jukebox. Very handy!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 06, 2014, 02:27:34 PM
Apologies Johan,I was phoning my father!
I wish they had juke boxes like that in the pub!! I was a bit late with this review upload;but I've got a new printer/scanner. I had to find something to do with it!! ;D

An enthusiastic review (IRR March edition) but it would be difficult not to be. I notice he describes Garry Walker's reading of the Fifth English Suite as "a more precise and cohesive reading". Apart from that minor quibble the LSSO still reign supreme in these scores;although I know John has some reservations about Alexander Walker's No 22!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 06, 2014, 02:38:27 PM
Incidentally,has anyone seen Gramophone Magazine since it (recently) changed hands? Is there any sign of improvement?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 06, 2014, 02:39:18 PM
Check your Inbox, cilgwyn...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 06, 2014, 03:24:41 PM
Thank you Johan! I just looked there,now! :)
I just had a look at the Gramophone website. With Pavarotti on the front (can't stand him!) I'm not holding my breath! Although they say they have a much expanded review section. Of course that won't help if they're dumb and short!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 06, 2014, 03:27:47 PM
I don't think Gramophone will ever be as good as it once was. The whole industry has changed, and so has the culture. But now - to bed! Bye!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on April 06, 2014, 05:12:03 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 06, 2014, 03:27:47 PM
I don't think Gramophone will ever be as good as it once was. The whole industry has changed, and so has the culture. But now - to bed! Bye!

hope and change :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 30, 2014, 09:34:06 PM
News about the latest Naxos disk (being recorded this month):

"The second disc is to include the composer's masterpiece, the Symphony no. 6, Sinfonia Tragica as well as 3 of his great late symphonies, nos. 28, 29 and 31."

from http://havergalbrianproject.vpweb.co.uk/Home.html

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 01, 2014, 02:02:09 AM
This is excellent news. It will be fascinating to contrast and compare performances in the case of the nos. 6 and 31.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on May 01, 2014, 03:47:55 AM
I can scarcely imagine the Fredman version of the 'Tragica' being bettered, both for interpretation and for balance of recording - but I'm more than willing to be proven wrong!

6 and 10 at the BBC Proms ... that would be a fine objective for the HBS.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 01, 2014, 04:39:47 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on May 01, 2014, 03:47:55 AM
I can scarcely imagine the Fredman version of the 'Tragica' being bettered, both for interpretation and for balance of recording - but I'm more than willing to be proven wrong!

Even so, more recordings/performances is always the good thing.  Music is not about record the perfect performance, and then retire the score.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on May 02, 2014, 05:17:39 PM
How long do you think it will take me to read through the posts on this thread since I was last around on this form a year and a half ago....or is it more??
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 10, 2014, 01:27:22 PM
Surprised no one has mentioned the HB Songs Vol 2 CD that has been out for a couple of weeks.

May be everyone was disappointed by Vol1  :(

Anyway, I've ordered it, partly for completeness, partly because some of the songs are soprano songs, and we'll see what they sound like!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 19, 2014, 09:46:31 AM
The new CD transfer of Peter Hill's Brian piano music LP is being issued in June. Catalogue number: Cameo Classics CC9016CD. You can buy it from the Nimbus website. This is an LP transfer I did some months ago and Klassic Haus have finished the restoration. I have a copy of the transfer and the results are excellent. Not keen on the music though................ :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 23, 2014, 03:45:55 AM
About to be released on the Heritage label. I got the CD through the post this morning.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=662946617093319&set=gm.10152111870162409&type=1
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 23, 2014, 02:43:25 PM
Nice! :) This eliminates that rather annoying cd change in the Forlane set,then. And a great coupling (the Foulds). I have made a cdr with the unbroken sequence & I do have one of this big old fashioned 5cd changers (complete with noisy mains transformer ???,but I have it in a cupboard and use cordless headphones) but it would be nice to have it all on a proper cd I can just bung in!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 27, 2014, 11:37:14 AM
Devastating news just in: the irreplaceable and most knowledgeable Brianite ever is dead - the great Malcolm MacDonald. He changed my life and my writing with his 'gift' of Havergal Brian's music. This is a bad day.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 27, 2014, 02:20:24 PM
That's terrible news, surely he wasn't that old?

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 27, 2014, 02:52:14 PM
Only 66. But I know he had had an operation last year. I think there must have been some disastrous relapse. Perhaps Dundonnell (Colin Mackie) knows more. Malcolm was his friend for most of his life.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 28, 2014, 04:05:05 AM
Johan, I read your post about Malcolm last night. Was too depressed to respond. Just as it seems that Brian is finally getting his due (with recordings) one of the men most responsible is dead. It's just too sad.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 28, 2014, 09:21:01 AM
Very sad indeed. That's no age at all. He and Bob Simpson were Brian's true champions. I was about email him about the Heritage CD (he wrote the notes). A great shame and a real shock.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on May 28, 2014, 12:00:26 PM
Sad news indeed.

Malcolm's 3 volume study of HB's symphonies remains a masterpiece of musical communication which even a dunce like me can understand and enjoy.

Malcolm conveyed his enthusiasm for music in prose of almost Shakespearean eloquence, such as his concluding words on HB's 16th:

"This whole coda, in fact, sums up something of what Brian stood for - a dogged, heroic confrontation of chaos and the unknown that could transform them into art of the highest power and complexity, could consume them into the very stuff and resources of tradition, and could bind them to his will by the absolute and sovereign power of the human imagination. This tremendous symphony, which seems to say most of the things worth saying about the world without a single wasted note, triumphantly succeeds in that aim, at every level and all along the line."

HB has lost one of his most powerful advocates. The world of music has lost one of its most gifted communicators. Requiescat in pace.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 28, 2014, 12:05:36 PM
Beautiful, Klaatu. Thank you.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 28, 2014, 01:48:10 PM
Very sorry to hear this. I greatly value his book on the symphonies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 28, 2014, 03:45:15 PM
MM's books on the Brian symphonies come from a distinguished lineage from Tovey's Essays in Musical Analysis via Simpson's writings on Nielsen and Bruckner. This is a tradition which describes the music as unfolding in time, as the listener experiences it from moment to moment. But MM's Brian books were amongst the most detailed and the best and most eloquently written of this type of writing. And this style is the best way to approach the music of Brian, which is is very fast-moving and full of abrupt contrasts. MM did a great service to Brian in explaining how his symphonies function as wholes; without his writings there would have been a danger that apart from a few obvious masterpieces (symphonies 6 and 16 for example), people would not appreciate Brian's symphonic achievement.

I have a shelf at home where I keep my favourite books, ones I often pick up when I have a few odd moments and glance though, reading odd passages here and there with pleasure, and MM's volumes are on that shelf and amongst the most picked-up.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 28, 2014, 03:56:02 PM
I'm in complete agreement, calyptorhynchus. MM's Brian books have been my companions for more than 35 years. I know them almost by heart and many of his observations, insights and predictions (that Brian could  one day become an inspiring type of creative artist - he has for me) have become part of my mental makeup. I also can see that almost all Brian reviews have been influenced by him and contain paraphrases of what he put so inimitably well. It will be impossible for future Brian scholars to be as original as he has been, I fear. But - who knows?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 29, 2014, 08:05:43 AM

Thought this would be of interest. My review for Musicweb. Very good CD.
https://word.office.live.com/wv/WordView.aspx?FBsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fdownload%2Ffile_preview.php%3Fid%3D281606915342347%26time%3D1401379430%26metadata&access_token=100001339604711%3AAVKQeT49odxuVBVzcnsHMLdTpVjO4WGmdv0djXkO1YrxDA&title=Heritage+Tigers.docx
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 30, 2014, 07:56:17 AM
I've been offline for a little bit (getting ready to move!) so I only just 'heard 'about this. It seems only recently I was thinking how great it was that the author of the book that fired my youthful imagination,and various Lp sleeves,was still around! I actually only had the first volume I must admit! It was only years later that the later symphonies 'opened up' their wonders for me! Maybe,if I'd obtained vols 2 & 3 it would have happened allot sooner! More fool me!! Still,I spent many happy hours poring over vol 1. Indeed,I became quite obsessed with the first ten,as my long suffering family would know,having to listen to hour after hour of them,very often at full blast!! His description of the music was wonderful. He really made you want to listen to this music......'Das Siegeslied' included ;D ;although not so much now I'm middle aged! Still,if anyone could sell Brian's,arguably,least likeable symphony,Malcolm MacDonald was surely the man! In fact it just struck me;one good way out of the problem,if you are embarking on a journey through the symphonies,and you really don't like No 4;just read his marvelous description of it instead of actually listening to it! He makes it sound like the epoch making blockbuster it should be! I still think it has it's moments though........it's just a bit loud for louds sake imho!
Luckily the others live up to Malcolm MacDonald's vivid evocations. I particularly like his description of No 3,my all time favourite Brian symphony! But they are all wonderful as are his record and booklet notes;and not just for Havergal Brian,either. He was always one of the most perceptive of music critics.

I remember,when Dundonell was a regular here,comparing Malcolm MacDonald's writing to Rider Haggard,the author of 'King Solomons Mines' and 'She' amongst others. I was reading She at the time and of course I was referring to Malcolm MacDonald's enthralling ability to draw the readers attention and paint vivid mental pictures of the music he was describing,not Rider Haggard's sometimes purple depictions of wild adventures in what would have been at the time strange exotic realms! But then again,with many of Brian's major works only available via posted off-air cassettes and the mysterious Aries label (will we ever know who the actual people involved in this outfit were?!!)  they were a strange exotic realm back then and certainly an enigmatic one;the musical equivalent of somewhere like Skull Island (No 3 perhaps?) or a distant planet.
Anyway,I am very sorry to hear this sad news indeed. Malcolm MacDonald's death is a great loss. He will be greatly missed!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 30, 2014, 08:03:03 AM
Great contribution, cilgwyn! The latest information regarding MM is that the HBS will very likely be dedicating the upcoming issue of the BBC recording of
The Tigers to his memory.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 30, 2014, 10:17:58 AM
That will be a lovely tribute! :)

I suppose I should point out that by my reference to 'Skull Island' I wasn't suggesting that Brian's music sounds like 'King Kong'! It was bad enough hearing that the beginning of the 'Gothic' sounded like the theme to 'Jaws'!!! ??? ;D (Just when you thought it was safe to go to a Prom!!) but 'Kong'?!! ??? ;D Mind you they do have one thing in common! Size!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 30, 2014, 11:33:19 AM
Ahem! ??? Well,you know what I mean! I just noticed the Mark Stone cd of Vol 2 of the HB Songbook! I obviously have been asleep or I should have known about this release. I really do wish I could muster some enthusiasm,but I think I will pass on it.

A release of 'The Tigers' does seem a very apt tribute. I think I'll go and put some HB on my cd changer now. Brian releases won't be quite the same without Malcolm MacDonald's notes. The brooding Mahlerian (at times) second and wildly eccentric third,literally teeming with ideas and astonishing sounds,will make a nice sequence and I can think of the images his writing evokes. I had the Boult Gothic on earlier this week. I hadn't listened to it for a while. I do like the way Brian's confidence and mastery appears to grow throughout the work. Parts of the first two movements seem a bit awkward and ott. I can't imagine Mahler composing music as clumsy and awkward sounding as that. But then that is probably part of it's appeal and power,making the truly astounding sequences of music in the third movement and that wierd storm even more astonishing and fulfilling when they arrive. The feeling,all the time,of striving towards some goal has to be one of the strengths of this colossal work. The choral music that follows is mind boggling and surprisingly red blooded for a British composer. Allot of English music is quiet and contemplative. This is one of the reasons it grabbed me the way it did when I first heard it. And one more point.Whatever faults Brian's most famous (or notorious,if you like?) work might possess,imo the cumulative effect of the work wouldn't be anywhere near as fulfilling or inspiring without them.

Anyway,I shouldn't be droning on like this at a time like this........but coming back to the Gothic again after a while and really enjoying it again AND the poignancy of Malcolm MacDonald's untimely death does sort of bring me back full circle.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 30, 2014, 11:41:56 AM
I've been listening to Brian a lot these past few days, too. No, Brian CDs won't be the same without MM. It will  require some getting used to for a very long time to come. As for melodic  similarities, I noticed one already a few decades ago, which always slightly diminishes the effect that Brian achieves there, through no fault of his own. It's in the final bars of the Sixteenth. I won't spoil it for you, if you never noticed it...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 30, 2014, 02:52:30 PM
I, alone amongst the Brianites here it seems, have been listening to Vol 2 of the HB Songs by Mark Stone et al. I have to report that Mark Stone seems to be singing much better on this disc, much more smoothly and more lyrically, much less shouty. The female singer is good (she wasn't on the first disc), and even the pianist seems to be a bit better. I was amazed and had to do some comparisons with Vol 1 and the Rayner Cook disc, but yes, Mark Stone does seem to be getting into the music more. I would definitely recommend people get Vol 2.

:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 30, 2014, 02:58:02 PM
Thanks for that reassuring review, calyptorhynchus. This might sway me to reconsider. ..
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 31, 2014, 01:55:50 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 30, 2014, 07:56:17 AM
But then again,with many of Brian's major works only available via posted off-air cassettes and the mysterious Aries label (will we ever know who the actual people involved in this outfit were?!!)  they were a strange exotic realm back then and certainly an enigmatic one;the musical equivalent of somewhere like Skull Island (No 3 perhaps?) or a distant planet.
Anyway,I am very sorry to hear this sad news indeed. Malcolm MacDonald's death is a great loss. He will be greatly missed!
Just in case anyone on this board is unaware (I doubt it), downloads are now available sourced from these Aries LPs. The scratchy old vinyls have been declicked and restored. Don't expect miracles. Some are better than others. I can thoroughly endorse the transfers of Symphonies 2 and 3 from an audio point of view and as a performance the Holmes fiddle concerto is thing of beauty. Go to the link below and then open the tab called "collaborations". There's a list of Brian CDs. If you click on the sleeves you will hear audio samples.
http://klassichaus.us/Home.php
By the way, I was listening to the Heritage release of The Tigers Symphonic Movements again this morning and I've really fallen for the John Foulds coupling (Pasquinade Symphonique No.1). It's tremedous stuff. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 31, 2014, 04:47:19 AM
A Brian query now! I am making a  cdr of syms 10-14 which will include the Brabbins 13! Query: which is regarded as the overall best performance of No 12?! I should know this one by now,I suppose!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2014, 05:07:10 AM
I like the historic Newstone and Del Mar best... Newstone takes the funeral march very slowly, which makes the menacing quality all the greater. Del Mar takes it more quickly, which impresses me, too. I'd say - listen to both and judge for yourself.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 31, 2014, 07:10:12 AM
Thank you for the reply,Johan! I think I will go for the Newstone,for the cdr anyway. Reasons? The Pioneering aspect of a premiere and the menacing quality you refer to. Also,I seem to recall that the del Mar,being a Prom,has a little more of the old 'audience participation'. Near the beginning I think? It might reduce the menace factor,I fear!! I will listen to it later,though! Having said that,I have to admit that while No 12 is undoubtedly a powerful work;it is not a favourite of mine. It is a little on the grim side,for obvious reasons I know;but that is one of the reasons I don't listen to it as much as some of the others. A bit scary actually. I wouldn't care to listen to it in the dark!

Big Mechanical 5cd changers are old hat these days,I know,but thanks to my TEAC (and Sennheiser cordless headphones) I have been listening to the following Brian symphonies in sequence today. No 2 (Mackerras) 3 (Pope) 6 (Fredman) 7 (Newstone) 8 (Groves) 9 (Groves) 10 (LSSO the Greatest!!). I suppose it's not a real surprise that the passing of Malcolm MacDonald has got me listening again. What is surprising is that I am enjoying works I used to enjoy,but haven't enjoyed so much in a while,as if with new ears!! No 9 for example. Always a bit of a Cinderella with some,compared to No's 6,9 & 10 for example. Heard in sequence this has some of Brian's most gloriously kaleidoscopic orchestration. It also has,to my current ears anyway,one of his most exhilarating,joyous and upbeat endings. In fact,if I may say so,one of the most gloriously triumphant endings of any symphony I know. It really lifts me up,gets me on my metaphorical feet! It's exciting! Groves,always a little underrated I think,gives superb accounts of these symphonies. I wish he could have been allowed to do a bit more for emi. Another useless wish that came to mind while listening to the Fredman sixth. If only we could have had a Lyrita third. Oh well!! :( ;D
That wonderfully mysterious opening to No 2 always grabs my attention immediately. I love this symphony. I believe all the best things about it outweigh any shortcomings. That gloriously romantic 'tune' that sweeps in and out. The brooding enigmatic almost nocturnal quality. The superb battle scherzo. It's almost like a Mahler Seven in spirit,but with better tunes! Although,I shouldn't make that comparison. I wish Dutton would put this one on their 'list'......then Brian 3!! ;D
I suppose you will notice that No's 4 & 5 have been left out! I may include them later. No 5 is a setting a poem of course and I would like to make a cdr with a more appropriate coupling,if possible,than the current one. No 4? Well...........I may. If I do put it in it will be the Poole,of course! We shall see!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 31, 2014, 07:44:08 AM
Just done a cdr of 5 & 6! Still not sure about No 4. I may be tempted though.............maybe?!! :-\ )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2014, 07:47:14 AM
Take the plunge, Siegeslied-lover...  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 31, 2014, 07:51:28 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2014, 07:47:14 AM
Take the plunge, Siegeslied-lover...  ;)
It's rubbish
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 31, 2014, 07:55:28 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 31, 2014, 07:10:12 AM
Thank you for the reply,Johan! I think I will go for the Newstone,for the cdr anyway. Reasons? The Pioneering aspect of a premiere and the menacing quality you refer to. Also,I seem to recall that the del Mar,being a Prom,has a little more of the old 'audience participation'. Near the beginning I think? It might reduce the menace factor,I fear!! I will listen to it later,though! Having said that,I have to admit that while No 12 is undoubtedly a powerful work;it is not a favourite of mine. It is a little on the grim side,for obvious reasons I know;but that is one of the reasons I don't listen to it as much as some of the others. A bit scary actually. I wouldn't care to listen to it in the dark!

Big Mechanical 5cd changers are old hat these days,I know,but thanks to my TEAC (and Sennheiser cordless headphones) I have been listening to the following Brian symphonies in sequence today. No 2 (Mackerras) 3 (Pope) 6 (Fredman) 7 (Newstone) 8 (Groves) 9 (Groves) 10 (LSSO the Greatest!!). I suppose it's not a real surprise that the passing of Malcolm MacDonald has got me listening again. What is surprising is that I am enjoying works I used to enjoy,but haven't enjoyed so much in a while,as if with new ears!! No 9 for example. Always a bit of a Cinderella with some,compared to No's 6,9 & 10 for example. Heard in sequence this has some of Brian's most gloriously kaleidoscopic orchestration. It also has,to my current ears anyway,one of his most exhilarating,joyous and upbeat endings. In fact,if I may say so,one of the most gloriously triumphant endings of any symphony I know. It really lifts me up,gets me on my metaphorical feet! It's exciting! Groves,always a little underrated I think,gives superb accounts of these symphonies. I wish he could have been allowed to do a bit more for emi. Another useless wish that came to mind while listening to the Fredman sixth. If only we could have had a Lyrita third. Oh well!! :( ;D
That wonderfully mysterious opening to No 2 always grabs my attention immediately. I love this symphony. I believe all the best things about it outweigh any shortcomings. That gloriously romantic 'tune' that sweeps in and out. The brooding enigmatic almost nocturnal quality. The superb battle scherzo. It's almost like a Mahler Seven in spirit,but with better tunes! Although,I shouldn't make that comparison. I wish Dutton would put this one on their 'list'......then Brian 3!! ;D
I suppose you will notice that No's 4 & 5 have been left out! I may include them later. No 5 is a setting a poem of course and I would like to make a cdr with a more appropriate coupling,if possible,than the current one. No 4? Well...........I may. If I do put it in it will be the Poole,of course! We shall see!! ;D
I've highlighted a series of yesses and a final NO NO NO.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2014, 07:56:45 AM
I'll leave you to the tender, loving care of doctor Bruckner, John.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 31, 2014, 08:03:08 AM
I'll put on my tin hat first! I must admit I am getting the urge to put it on!
Brian's Second. I said,"Mahler Seven with tunes!" The things I say! ??? ;D Not true.....but it does have that 'nocturnal' quality. I should know because I used to 'run it' through my head during the 'night shift'. Appropriately doom laden ,of course! ;D "Man in his cosmic loneliness",as opposed to "Man in his comic loneliness!" ;D I wouldn't have liked that!! ??? No 2 always strikes me as one of Brian's most overtly late romantic efforts. A bit like a Tchaikovsky Manfred with all that brooding atmosphere and turbulence. He was reading Goethe,of course and admired Berlioz. No wonder my youthful mind was stricken by it. No 5 is a bit like that too.

Oops,I see another reply!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 31, 2014, 08:20:41 AM
John certainly knows how to save time on typing!! ;D I think I'll do that next time! He may have a point,however. The possibility that I may feel doom laden after a few bars of Das Siegeslied!!

On the other hand,maybe like Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984 I'll learn to love Das Siegeslied! ??? ;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2014, 08:24:51 AM
Big Brian is watching you.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on May 31, 2014, 10:33:52 AM
JZH:

"As for melodic  similarities, I noticed one already a few decades ago, which always slightly diminishes the effect that Brian achieves there, through no fault of his own. It's in the final bars of the Sixteenth. I won't spoil it for you, if you never noticed it..."

Well, this probably isn't what you meant JZ, but I can hear a distinct similarity between the end of the 16th and the closing bars of Arthur Bliss's ballet suite Checkmate. There's the penultimate dissonant chords (punctuated in the Bliss by a timpani figure that sounds like the one near the close of HB's 6th!) followed by a final blazing chord.

The effect of that last chord is different in the two works - in the Bliss it's a cry of despair at the vanquishing of Love by Death. In the HB it's surely a shout of triumph.

I believe Bliss wrote Checkmate in 1947 and HB composed his 6th - with that similar-sounding tympani figure - in 1948. And the 16th followed in 1960.

I've no technical knowledge of music whatsoever, so maybe it's just my imagination. But I wonder if HB went to one of the early performances of Checkmate, and if it had a powerful effect on him? Does anyone know?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2014, 11:21:11 AM
I love Checkmate,  Klaatu. And I love that powerful ending. But as it is a long time ago I listened to it, I'll have to refresh my memory, which I shall do (soon-ish). The ending of that 'piece' which strikes me as so similar to that of the Sixteenth, isn't anything classical, it's popular, the ending of a well-known signature-tune of a famous show (okay, here is a hint: there are puppets in it). --Johan
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 31, 2014, 01:13:41 PM
THUNDERBIRDS ARE GOOOOO!! ;D

Well, it can't be 'The Clangers!'
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2014, 01:32:19 PM
("This is what we call the Muppet Show!")
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on May 31, 2014, 01:39:06 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2014, 01:32:19 PM
("This is what we call the Muppet Show!")

I wonder which one is Bert and which one is Ernie...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2014, 01:43:47 PM
Ha!

(Sing that close of the Muppet theme with the closing bars if Brian's Sixteenth in mind, and hear the  resemblance....)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 31, 2014, 03:53:21 PM
The Muppet show! Of course!! It hasn't been repeated here for years.....the rotters! I used to love that! I was trying to think. I haven't listened to it yet,see (tut!tut!). I've been busy! Of course,once I hear it I may never see or hear the Sixteenth in quite the same light! ??? ;D No come to think of it,I don't really see you as a 50+ Thunderbirds man.......although,I did watch it a long,long time ago! (I preferred Cpt Scarlet,anyway)
When I lived on the coast we used to get The Muppet Show from Ireland,with all the characters dubbed into Irish gaelic. Although funnily enough the guests weren't! That was the last time I saw it! :( I still have some of the video tapes I made of it.....strange! They got the voices right though!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 01, 2014, 12:42:39 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 31, 2014, 11:21:11 AM
I love Checkmate,  Klaatu. And I love that powerful ending. But as it is a long time ago I listened to it, I'll have to refresh my memory, which I shall do (soon-ish). The ending of that 'piece' which strikes me as so similar to that of the Sixteenth, isn't anything classical, it's popular, the ending of a well-known signature-tune of a famous show (okay, here is a hint: there are puppets in it). --Johan
It's a great piece. The entry of the black queen is superb and the finale is as thrilling as music ever gets. Bliss conducting it for the WRC label (now available as a CD on Heritage) is very fine indeed but if you can get hold of the freebie BBC Music Magazine CD of Del Mar doing it at the Proms that is just something else. It has that special  atmosphere you only really get in a live concert. I will never forget playing the piece under Del Mar at De Montfort Hall in 1967. Just about my most thrilling musical memory ever. The place was electric. For me, it's up there with Leicester City winning the League Cup in 1997. I love Bliss. His Introduction and Allegro is in my top 10. I'm not too surprised that HB was inspired by The Muppets. :D Here's a link to Heritage if anyone is interested:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Nov13/Bliss_checkmate_HTGCD220.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on June 01, 2014, 04:10:57 AM
The Muppet Show - of course!

I've often thought that the final chord of the 16th lacked something, and now I know what it is. Oh, if only HB had scored it for the party squeaker ......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 01, 2014, 04:34:31 AM
Thunderbirds indeed! ::)

Meanwhile back at the ranch the Brian fever continues. This is one busy cd changer! I've been making more cdrs for it. The process of burning drives me crazy (bring back c90s!) but the music is worth it & it's great to hear them all being put on for me in sequence! No 3 at the moment,6 & 7 next. Yes,I did chicken out at the prospect of Das Siegeslied! :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2014, 04:39:47 AM
I thank John for his Bliss recommendation.


I'm listening to the Bax Second - the similarities of the opening movement with the one in Brian's own Second are quite remarkable. Difference - in Brian everything is more extreme, the dimensions feel 'larger'. Bax is more polished, and perhaps his movement is more accomplished. But there is a rawness to the Brian which makes it more 'dangerous'.
Update: I have know Bax 2 for a very long time, but its kinship with Brian 2 is really rather remarkable. Both are 'catastrophic' works, with climaxes to match.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 01, 2014, 06:39:35 AM
A very interesting comparison,Johan! Certainly much better than Mahler 7;although I stand by the nocturnal comparison. The night can be both desolate and beautiful,a time to brood! It's certainly not a daytime symphony! I should know,I used to listen to it allot in my head while walking at night!! That said,you have the same ominous atmosphere,feelings of foreboding,impending catastrophe you get in Bax 2. Brian is more interested in the landscapes of the mind however than the ones around him! Curiously,I am also reminded of late romantic symphonies like Tchaikovsky's Manfred. Not that they have anything in common in terms of the way they sound! But they do share the sense of foreboding,catastrophe and loneliness.
It seems that Brian's Second is growing on you. Not that you didn't like it before,but I got the feeling you weren't as convinced by it as some of the others. Hearing it in sequence and listening to the earlier Leslie Head performances as well certainly has enhanced my appreciation of this symphony. There do seem some sequences where Brian seems to be struggling to weld the whole structure together. Unsurprisingly,at these points his well of inspiration seems to run a little drier than usual;albeit not for long!! However,like the bits in the first and second movements of the 'Gothic' that often strike me as a little overblown or 'purple',I am beginning to feel that this is one of the things I like about his music. The feeling of going out on a journey,of learning from your mistakes and growing mastery. In fact,I am starting to think that Brian's compositional flaws are actually one of his strengths. Maybe it is possible to be too perfect a composer?! To sum up,I suppose you could say I like his warts ;D.............but then again,I'm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2014, 06:48:45 AM
I think Brian's Second gets better and better as it progresses.  Your journey metaphor and 'warts and all' acceptance I can agree with. I think the main theme of the first movement, after all that buildup, is rather weak.  I have noticed that in more symphonies: 7, 9 and 29 have the same fault: great introduction but a rather unmemorable first theme. Back to no. 2: the final movement is the best, overall, but that too insistent Götterdämmerung motif hampers its progress a bit. Still - I like this symphony a lot. What, after all, can you write after The Gothic?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 01, 2014, 07:50:06 AM
Done! My connection disappeared when I was previewing the post!

Anyway,back to No2 ;D......Brian does include a wonderfully romantic theme which sweeps in and out of the symphony here and there which I do find very memorable. That said,after that genuinely gripping opening and some wonderful writing for brass,a tender and very lovely lyrical passage that follows,he seems to lose focus. Fortunately,while I'm struggling to maintain my own interest and understand how this sequence of note spinning could follow on from such a truly absorbing and inspired opening Brian's focus seems to improve,almost as if he's wrestled the thing back into control like some huge slippery serpent. Things improve from that point,thankfully,and my overriding impression is that there is allot more wheat than chaff! (Hope I got that the right way around! ;D) I find this an absorbing and fascinating symphony. In a way it's faults are almost it's good points. Having said that,Brian is obviously struggling in places. Luckily for him and us (well,you Johan,anyway) there are allot of tremendous ideas which keep you listening through the duff bits and the desolate,oppressive,catastrophic atmosphere of this music seems genuinely unique in his output. The scherzo,on the other hand,strikes me as one of the most powerful and original movements he wrote. I also feel that if you like composers like Berlioz and the later Tchaikovsky symphonies this has the same sort of appeal;although Brian's conception is obviously less colourful and more abstract.
To sum up,for the time being at least ;D ,I like this symphony. In fact,it's partly the problematic nature of the piece which keeps drawing me back! Also,with all it's longeurs and flaws,allot of the inspiration here seems genuinely heartfelt. In fact,to use hippy terminology,I feel it's quite a deep symphony. There is allot going on beneath the surface,allot to find. It's just a pity Brian isn't really in control most of the time and maybe it is some kind of 'workout' before something that really does capture his creative faculties comes along.......like No 3,for instance,where everything seems to pop into place. You even get a piano concerto thrown in with that one,but everything works and Brian's wildly vivid imagination is finally at full pelt!

Just noticed I cocked up on that re-post above!!! ??? ;D I used print screen luckily,as I lost my connection,so I may fix it later?!! Or not?!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2014, 07:54:15 AM
There is a passage in the slow movement, that  'dialogue' among the higher and lower brass, with those dinosaur-like tubas, which has always struck me as quintessential Brian... So - I wouldn't miss the Second for the world, though I have my criticisms (as have you, cilgwyn)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 01, 2014, 08:08:11 AM
It's actually probably I good thing I lost some of that post I re-pasted! Ernest Hemingway I'm not!!! :(
No 7 is another flawed work. In fact,in that respect No's 2 & 7 have quite allot in common! The Seventh is quite different in atmosphere,however. Interesting,that they both have the same inspiration in the writings of Goethe.
I've got No's 2,3,6-10 on the cd changer,incidentally. On repeat,it's back on No 2 now. One more listen through then I'll take it up to No 17! They get more gritty then,don't they? For a while,anyway! I can't wait!!! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 01, 2014, 08:50:25 AM
I'll have to wait,though. I'm still on No3! :( ;D

Incidentally,I must sound like I'm obsessed with the Second symphony,with all these posts! ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 01, 2014, 09:58:23 AM
Listened to the Lenard 'Gothic' yesterday and had forgotten how great it is (both the Symphony and the performance). I have come to appreciate the choral sections much more. Today I listened to the Dutton Symphony 10 - a magnificent work ( although other than The Gothic I think that No 8 is my favourite). Oddly enough I find that old Leicestershire SSO version of No 10 more moving but maybe that is for nostalgic reasons. Anyway, I thought that I would tune in here for some sophisticated analysis - and what do I get - 'The Muppets' and 'Thunderbirds'. Johan H would be appalled  8). What next 'Stingray', 'Captain Scarlet'?
Actually Tintin was always my favourite....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 01, 2014, 11:58:31 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 01, 2014, 09:58:23 AM
Listened to the Lenard 'Gothic' yesterday and had forgotten how great it is (both the Symphony and the performance). I have come to appreciate the choral sections much more. Today I listened to the Dutton Symphony 10 - a magnificent work ( although other than The Gothic I think that No 8 is my favourite). Oddly enough I find that old Leicestershire SSO version of No 10 more moving but maybe that is for nostalgic reasons. Anyway, I thought that I would tune in here for some sophisticated analysis - and what do I get - 'The Muppets' and 'Thunderbirds'. Johan H would be appalled  8). What next 'Stingray', 'Captain Scarlet'?
Actually Tintin was always my favourite....
Wind players in some top British professional orchestras - I mean the London ones - play Pop goes the Weasel during the last movement of Tchaik 5 when they don't think much of the conductor. It's even in some commercial recordings.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 01, 2014, 01:54:31 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on June 01, 2014, 11:58:31 AM
Wind players in some top British professional orchestras - I mean the London ones - play Pop goes the Weasel during the last movement of Tchaik 5 when they don't think much of the conductor. It's even in some commercial recordings.
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 01, 2014, 07:15:49 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 01, 2014, 09:58:23 AM
Listened to the Lenard 'Gothic' yesterday and had forgotten how great it is (both the Symphony and the performance). I have come to appreciate the choral sections much more. Today I listened to the Dutton Symphony 10 - a magnificent work ( although other than The Gothic I think that No 8 is my favourite). Oddly enough I find that old Leicestershire SSO version of No 10 more moving but maybe that is for nostalgic reasons. Anyway, I thought that I would tune in here for some sophisticated analysis - and what do I get - 'The Muppets' and 'Thunderbirds'. Johan H would be appalled  8). What next 'Stingray', 'Captain Scarlet'?
Actually Tintin was always my favourite....
Don't forget Bill and Ben the flower pot men! :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 02, 2014, 07:53:02 AM
Vandermolen may have had a point! >:(
I'm going to load the later symphonies into the cd changer now. I think I will take my 'journey' up to No17 (or 18?). I will listen out for that 'Muppet' theme in No16!! I have had No's 2,3,6-10 on for the last few days. Is Havergal Brian a little overrated?! All I can say is that I find them very satisfying to listen to,absorbing,stimulating,enigmatic,endlessly fascinating and like the best composers I've heard I never get bored! Dvorak and Beethoven are two other examples. I have previously referred to the problematic nature of some of Brian's early symphonies and the feeling of a composer learning as he goes along. I like the way you get that with the Dvorak symphonies. The early ones with their Wagnerian influences,with all their flaws,there are longeurs,but the compensation is Dvorak's rich imagination. What not to like about No 2 for example? Like Brian Dvorak's music has a bit of everything;atmosphere,tunes (Brian IS tuneful!),mystery,excitement,colour and humour! Of course they don't sound anything like each other;but when people refer to Dvorak's early symphonies as if they're not as good,I wouldn't actually disagree with them. Yes,the later ones are the masterpieces;but like Brian's early symphonies,at least heard in context;the flaws apparent in Dvorak's early symphonies are part of their fascination. That growing sense of mastery as you go on. You really feel like you are setting out on a voyage of discovery.
Beethoven is a bit the same with No's 1 & 2. Wonderful music. For some reason No 4 has always been my favourite! (Of course there are all sorts of background issues relating to the Dvorak symphonies;I'm just taking the numbering of them as it stands today!)


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 02, 2014, 08:37:33 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 02, 2014, 07:53:02 AM
Vandermolen may have had a point! >:(
I'm going to load the later symphonies into the cd changer now. I think I will take my 'journey' up to No17 (or 18?). I will listen out for that 'Muppet' theme in No16!! I have had No's 2,3,6-10 on for the last few days. Is Havergal Brian a little overrated?! All I can say is that I find them very satisfying to listen to,absorbing,stimulating,enigmatic,endlessly fascinating and like the best composers I've heard I never get bored! Dvorak and Beethoven are two other examples. I have previously referred to the problematic nature of some of Brian's early symphonies and the feeling of a composer learning as he goes along. I like the way you get that with the Dvorak symphonies. The early ones with their Wagnerian influences,with all their flaws,there are longeurs,but the compensation is Dvorak's rich imagination. What not to like about No 2 for example? Like Brian Dvorak's music has a bit of everything;atmosphere,tunes (Brian IS tuneful!),mystery,excitement,colour and humour! Of course they don't sound anything like each other;but when people refer to Dvorak's early symphonies as if they're not as good,I wouldn't actually disagree with them. Yes,the later ones are the masterpieces;but like Brian's early symphonies,at least heard in context;the flaws apparent in Dvorak's early symphonies are part of their fascination. That growing sense of mastery as you go on. You really feel like you are setting out on a voyage of discovery.
Beethoven is a bit the same with No's 1 & 2. Wonderful music. For some reason No 4 has always been my favourite! (Of course there are all sorts of background issues relating to the Dvorak symphonies;I'm just taking the numbering of them as it stands today!)
One key difference: Dvorak is a master of orchestration. He knows his way around the instruments. Brian is - to be topical - a total muppet by comparison  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 02, 2014, 08:40:38 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 02, 2014, 09:02:30 AM
Yes,Dvorak's problem was mainly one of finding his own voice,not his mastery of orchestration! You'll have to excuse these dumb comparisons,John! :-[ ;D
Maybe I should have picked on Bruckner?!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 02, 2014, 12:31:39 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 01, 2014, 07:15:49 PM
Don't forget Bill and Ben the flower pot men! :o ;D

I'm old enough to remember them well and I also worked with a lady who was the narrator in 'Andy Pandy'. So, you see that I mix in very exclusive circles.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 02, 2014, 12:34:43 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2014, 06:48:45 AM
I think Brian's Second gets better and better as it progresses.  Your journey metaphor and 'warts and all' acceptance I can agree with. I think the main theme of the first movement, after all that buildup, is rather weak.  I have noticed that in more symphonies: 7, 9 and 29 have the same fault: great introduction but a rather unmemorable first theme. Back to no. 2: the final movement is the best, overall, but that too insistent Götterdämmerung motif hampers its progress a bit. Still - I like this symphony a lot. What, after all, can you write after The Gothic?!

This is a symphony I have learnt to appreciate much more in recent years. For me I have trouble getting into the later symphonies (after No. 17) apart from No. 22 which I rate very highly.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 02, 2014, 12:36:29 PM
Hi, Jeffrey! Check your Facebook inbox...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 02, 2014, 12:43:58 PM
Am I the only Havergalian who loves the Fourth?  :(  Maybe it's all that strident militarism that appeals to this old soldier boy  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 02, 2014, 12:46:43 PM
I like the Fourth, Sarge. I don't think it's been done justice yet, though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 02, 2014, 12:52:27 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 02, 2014, 12:46:43 PM
I like the Fourth, Sarge. I don't think it's been done justice yet, though.

Since Naxos (Marco Polo) has already recorded it, we're unlikely to see another version soon. I dream about a 4 and 5 coupling...the Fifth to soothe the savage beast after listening to 4  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 02, 2014, 03:31:43 PM
That does it! The Poole Fourth is going in the cd changer tomorrow!! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 03, 2014, 01:40:43 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 02, 2014, 03:31:43 PM
That does it! The Poole Fourth is going in the cd changer tomorrow!! ??? ;D
Poor old CD changer. I doubt whether or not it will survive.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 03, 2014, 04:17:15 AM
It might just blow it up! ??? ;D

I went to put on Das Siegeslied,for some reason I seem to have disposed of my cdr of the Poole performance and my cd of the Marco Polo recording,so I had to put the Handford performance in. The sound is a bit ragged,but pretty good,clear & detailed. Any thoughts on this performance,I have switched on the cordless headphones part way through,so I haven't heard it all. I must look the performance details up on the HBS website now. The soloist in the second movement is Honor Sheppard I believe (the details are on the cdr). I haven't heard her yet. How does she compare to Felicity Palmer?
I will make a new cdr of the Poole!

Ah,the second movement is on now.........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 03, 2014, 04:31:30 AM
Honor Sheppard's voice is a little thinner,less sensuous! Could be worse could be better! A bit too staid/prim,but she's okay? Felicity palmer sounds more evil!! ;D
Ooh,that high note was a bit of a reach for her! Like the handling of that big orchestral climax though! The pacing of the orchestral section is a bit slow though! More ferocity perhaps! The choirs are good though!
I think I could live with this performance if there was no Poole! I see it's a 1967 performance. An old tape' I wonder what sort of machine it was recorded on (the geek in me!). It's probably in very good nick for it's age.

The choirs are good,but the pacing lack the ferocity of the Poole. Felicity Palmer is the better soloist. She's more sensuous/erotic,in an 'evil' kind of way. I'm quite enjoing this.though. I just hope it's not one of those Aries jobs under a false name (ie Aaagh! I was listening to the Poole!! :o)

By sheer coincidence I took some soluble Panadol tablets before listening to this! Just a coincidence of course!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 03, 2014, 05:28:11 AM
The Panadol must have helped ;D I actually enjoyed Das Siegeslied!! :o ;D As if that isn't enough I have just been to the Klassikhaus website and bought their FLAC of 4 & 5!!!

Disclaimer: Other brands of painkiller are widely available! (That was the one in my cupboard!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 03, 2014, 05:44:22 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 03, 2014, 05:28:11 AM
The Panadol must have helped ;D I actually enjoyed Das Siegeslied!! :o ;D As if that isn't enough I have just been to the Klassikhaus website and bought their FLAC of 4 & 5!!!

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 02, 2014, 12:52:27 PMI dream about a 4 and 5 coupling...the Fifth to soothe the savage beast after listening to 4  ;)

Sarge

How silly of me. The coupling has already been done, of course, and I have it in my collection!


(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan2013/brian4poole5pope.jpg)


This memory lapse must be God's way of telling me I have too many CDs  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 03, 2014, 05:46:44 AM
I like your Siegeslied adventure tale, cilgwyn.  :) I think I'll dust off that Handford performance later tonight. Oh, I suddenly remember I can listen to it through the HBS Recordings Library, too. Sound quality there may be better...

Re Sarge - you're so much richer than you can remember...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 03, 2014, 05:50:42 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 03, 2014, 05:46:44 AM
Re Sarge - you're so much richer than you can remember...

;D :D ;D

Once upon a time I was richer...before I bought all these damn CDs.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 03, 2014, 06:09:09 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 03, 2014, 05:28:11 AM
The Panadol must have helped ;D I actually enjoyed Das Siegeslied!! :o ;D As if that isn't enough I have just been to the Klassikhaus website and bought their FLAC of 4 & 5!!!

Disclaimer: Other brands of painkiller are widely available! (That was the one in my cupboard!)
I helped restore this stuff to CD. I am quite ashamed to be named on the CD case to be honest. Enjoy the FLACs >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 03, 2014, 06:11:52 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on June 03, 2014, 06:09:09 AM
I helped restore this stuff to CD. I am quite ashamed to be named on the CD case to be honest. Enjoy the FLACs >:(

Well, we certainly appreciate your effort, your contribution, even if you can't.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 03, 2014, 06:13:47 AM
Your dream came true Sarge! ??? Would you mind dreaming finding the score of Prometheus Unbound for us next please?!! I hope mine don't come true! I'm going to be dodging allot of Cheese monsters!! I see a  Kung Fu course being booked in the near future!

I enjoyed the Handford performance,albeit with the aforementioned reservations. I looked for Honor Sheppard cds on Amazon. Less well known or recorded than Felicity Palmer I note she was in the Boult Gothic and,judging by what is available on cd,appears to have focused her recording career on Handel and Purcell. Handel having some relevance here with respect to the opening of No 4.


It strikes me that the Handford performance may be more appealing to those who find No 4 a little bombastic or OTT? Less driven and with Sheppard's more 'English' (Church of) approach! Amazing to have a  recording so old in such good sound. I wonder who supplied it?

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 03, 2014, 06:25:51 AM
Here's another of my efforts (in conjunction with Curt Timmons) released yesterday by Cameo Classics. Technically very good. Don't like the music. http://www.wyastone.co.uk/havergal-brian-the-complete-music-for-piano.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 03, 2014, 06:38:27 AM
Totally off topic but here's another of my transfers just released today by Cameo. Not HB but the piece by Crumb is sensational and the playing and recording are well up to par.
http://www.wyastone.co.uk/east-west-encounters.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dundonnell on June 03, 2014, 06:43:38 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 27, 2014, 02:52:14 PM
Only 66. But I know he had had an operation last year. I think there must have been some disastrous relapse. Perhaps Dundonnell (Colin Mackie) knows more. Malcolm was his friend for most of his life.

Malcolm told me about 18 months ago that he was suffering from aggressive cancer. He had been diagnosed with the disease but a fall, in which his pelvis had shattered, had confirmed just how far it had spread. He insisted however that he felt fine, that the treatment with various drugs was holding the spread at bay and that his oncologist was extremely surprised at how well he actually felt. Malcolm's cheerful optimism was inspirational. He continued to write with all that marvellous, eloquent and so knowledgeable enthusiasm that always infused his work. He was able to travel and to take holidays. When I corresponded with him the disease was barely mentioned; indeed I almost forgot at times that he was ill and that the longterm prognosis could not possibly be good. From time to time there was the odd, almost throwaway line about blood transfusions but said with such seeming nonchalance that one got the impression that this was a run-of-the mill occurance which anybody might have to endure.

So innured had I become to the seriousness of his illness that last Tuesday evening I was telling some friends over a drink in a sun-dappled Scottish garden how well Malcolm was doing......only to return home to find the news that he was dead. I understand that it was only in the last week before his death that the final decline set in and that the death was peaceful and that he was in a hospice near to his lovely home in Gloucestershire.

So much has been written about his books on HB. I am fortunate enough to have all three with lovely inscriptions from the author. I also possess copies of his very early first thoughts on Brian in the little book he wrote for the Triad Press (as well as his books on Brahms and Schoenberg). I also have Malcolm's first attempt at a catalogue of HB's music, written on an ancient typewriter sometime in the mid to late 1960s.

But I principally remember him now as my closest and dearest friend during the most formative period of my young adult life. From the age of 14 until he went off to Cambridge in 1966 but again all through the long university vacations we spent most of our time in each other's company, talking incessantly about music, about those aspects of History in which he was most interested(Roman and Naval History), about the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien. To describe Malcolm's conversation as stimulating does absolutely no justice to the amazing breadth of his knowledge and to the inspiritational impact of contact with a mind like his. Malcolm was a naturally shy young man and we fed off the common interests which we discovered in each other.

When he went up to Cambridge-the year after I had gone to Edinburgh University-he discovered a completely new world, full of music and a intensely vivid and fresh intellectual environment. He made new friends. Having completed a degree in English he then took a one-year degree in Music (in which he was entirely self-taught). Yet every week for those four years he took the time to pen a lengthy letter recounting his life, his experiences and, above all, his musical discoveries. He attended the Boult Gothic in London in 1966 and that same night, after returning late to Cambridge, sat down and wrote out his initial impressions of the work at length in a letter which (along with all his other letters) I have carefully preserved.

Travel between Scotland and the South of England was not as straightforward forty years ago for young people with fastidious tastes but little money and, for a long time time, Malcolm made very little money indeed out of writing about music. We saw very little of each other over the last few decades.....sadly. Yet I still regarded him as my oldest friend (and I hoped he shared my nostalgic recollections of those days of our youth). I know-now more than ever-that the person I am today has been shaped to an extraordinarily substantial degree by that youthful exposure to a mind of such brilliance.

If I have written at length and so very personally I make no apology. I know and appreciate how much Malcolm's writings touched the lives of others. But I wanted to share the way in which Malcolm himself helped to shape me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 03, 2014, 06:52:28 AM
Very well said Colin. I hope you are OK. He was a very talented man.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 03, 2014, 07:15:08 AM
Beautiful tribute, Colin. And thanks for all the extra information about Malcolm's illness and final year.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 03, 2014, 09:24:37 PM
Wonderful tribute Colin.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 04, 2014, 01:17:01 AM
Indeed! Malcolm MacDonald will be greatly missed.
His passing has got me listening to Brian's music again as if with new ears! Even some I thought I didn't enjoy as much as I used to! It's like I just read vol 1 of his book on the Brian symphonies again. Strange! What is happening?!! I even bought the Naxos reissue of Das Siegeslied & No 12 late last night. I'd taken my original Marco Polo copy to the YMCA!! Don't ask me why?!!
I've got No's 6-17 in the cd changer,playing in sequence,right now (Sennheiser cordless headphones. Brian while you work!! :) )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 04, 2014, 01:33:36 AM
'Brian while you work' - dangerous but undoubtedly stimulating.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 04, 2014, 01:51:59 AM
When I bought the Naxos cd of Das Siegeslied on Amazon last night I saw a review there (second one down!) which quotes Malcolm MacDonald. According to what I read there MM felt that Handford got the tempi more consistently right! And I said he was a bit slower/less driven than Poole!! Although I did say that I enjoyed the performance and thought that some people who feel that the work is too ott and a bit bombastic (and there are some apparently ;D )might actually prefer this interpretation.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 04, 2014, 02:38:55 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 03, 2014, 05:28:11 AM
The Panadol must have helped ;D I actually enjoyed Das Siegeslied!! :o ;D As if that isn't enough I have just been to the Klassikhaus website and bought their FLAC of 4 & 5!!!

Disclaimer: Other brands of painkiller are widely available! (That was the one in my cupboard!)
What do you think of them?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 04, 2014, 12:32:50 PM
Following the sad news about MM listened to Symphony No. 7 tonight. Had not heard it for years - an absolutely great work, one of the best I think.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 05, 2014, 05:29:09 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on June 04, 2014, 02:38:55 AM
What do you think of them?
Sorry John,I've been busy moving! I listened to the FLAC files last night on my cd player. The Poole Das Siegeslied never sounded better! ;D Unfortunately,there seemed to be some brief glitch,or burst of noise at one point. I downloaded it again  today via the email link. The previous download may have been interrupted or some problem occurred?! Any thoughts?  Anyway,I will make a new cdr and perhaps stream the music from the pc first! The AMF file of No 5 was very recessed in terms of the sound quality. The Klassichaus restoration is a startling improvement. For the first time in a long while I am really able to enjoy this lovely,haunting symphony.....one of Brian's best in many ways,but shackled to a rather flowery poem!! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 05, 2014, 06:28:01 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 05, 2014, 05:29:09 AM
Sorry John,I've been busy moving! I listened to the FLAC files last night on my cd player. The Poole Das Siegeslied never sounded better! ;D Unfortunately,there seemed to be some brief glitch,or burst of noise at one point. I downloaded it again  today via the email link. The previous download may have been interrupted or some problem occurred?! Any thoughts?  Anyway,I will make a new cdr and perhaps stream the music from the pc first! The AMF file of No 5 was very recessed in terms of the sound quality. The Klassichaus restoration is a startling improvement. For the first time in a long while I am really able to enjoy this lovely,haunting symphony.....one of Brian's best in many ways,but shackled to a rather flowery poem!! ::) ;D
Whereabouts in No.4 do you have a problem? I will check my files once you get back to me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2014, 06:29:55 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on June 05, 2014, 06:28:01 AM
Whereabouts in No.4 do you have a problem? I will check my files once you get back to me.

I'd like to know too. If you can give us the time I'll check my CD.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 05, 2014, 06:31:19 AM
I listened to the Handford Fourth yesterday, online,  through the good services of the HBS Recordings Library. For a first performance it's very good. MM must have had it in mind when he write the chapter about it in vol. 1. The tempi are often very different from what I have been accustomed to in the two other performances, but they are well-chosen, mostly. The opening and the Chariot of God passage (in the second movement) are really much stronger here. It goes to show that we need as many performances as possible of Brian's symphonies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 05, 2014, 08:12:27 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on June 05, 2014, 06:28:01 AM
Whereabouts in No.4 do you have a problem? I will check my files once you get back to me.
John,it could have been the way I downloaded the or burned the cdr. Also,I was listening via cordless headphones. I just thought I'd mention it just in case. Hopefully,it's okay. I will listen again now.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 05, 2014, 10:41:23 AM
I made a new cdr from the re-download and no problems this time around with 4 & 5 at all as far as I can make out! In fact the sound quality is stunning. The best I've ever heard for these recordings. The recording of No 5 at the AMF in particular was recessed. The difference in the Klassikhaus restoration is stunning. Now the sound is bright and clear,Brian Rayner Cooke doesn't sound like he's at the other end of a very long valley and I'm really enjoying the wine of summer again!! Thank you John and Klassikhaus!! The bad news for John? I think this Klassikhaus restoration has converted me to the pro Das Siegeslied camp!! :o ;D

I'm glad you enjoyed the Handford Das Siegeslied,Johan. I hadn't really listened to this before,but now I think this really is allot more than just a curiosity. I'm actually glad that I'd disposed of the old Poole cdr now (although it was on my external drive) as that's why I put the Handford performance in the cd changer. All in all it does seem less driven than the Poole performance. One for unbelievers,perhaps?  That said,Felicity Palmer gets the palm (ouch!) for being more sensuous and dangerous sounding in the second movement!!
Indeed Johan,I think hearing another fine performance of Das Siegeslied and then hearing the Klassichaus restoration has really enhanced my appreciation of this work! Here's to the Prom premiere so I can jump out of my seat and yell "Encore" at the end! An armed escort out of the hall would indeed be fitting! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 05, 2014, 11:07:13 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 05, 2014, 10:41:23 AM
I made a new cdr from the re-download and no problems this time around with 4 & 5 at all as far as I can make out! In fact the sound quality is stunning. The best I've ever heard for these recordings. The recording of No 5 at the AMF in particular was recessed. The difference in the Klassikhaus restoration is stunning. Now the sound is bright and clear,Brian Rayner Cooke doesn't sound like he's at the other end of a very long valley and I'm really enjoying the wine of summer again!! Thank you John and Klassikhaus!! The bad news for John? I think this Klassikhaus restoration has converted me to the pro Das Siegeslied camp!!
I'm delighted you are enjoying the restorations. I don't like either symphony but that's not the point. Not everything I restore is to my own personal taste. I focus on unusual repertoire, classic performances from years gone by and recordings from labels that are no longer with us - Saga, Concert Hall, World Record Club etc. I've recently been working on some restorations for Cameo, including the Brian/Peter Hill and a huge pile of Readers Digest LPs for the Klassic Haus downloads section. The fact that people such as yourself enjoy some of the work is very gratifying. Back to Cameo - the old Hull/Brian master tapes are in poor shape and the latest reincarnations on CD are not all running at the correct speed/pitch. David Kent-Watson is considering re-doing the set from LP transfers via myself and Klassic Haus. I have huge reservations about these recordings - the playing standard is generally pretty excruciating but that's not the point. Does anyone feel that another reissue is worth doing? I can't see there being huge interest but that's only my opinion. Thoughts anyone?   
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 12, 2014, 12:51:38 AM
Review now live:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Jun14/Brian_Tigers_HTGCD270.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 28, 2014, 06:42:58 AM
Back at last! I've just finished moving! Bt and my ISP took a while to move my accounts & I only got back online this afternoon! I had posts I wanted to make,but what could I do?! Smoke signals,maybe?! Anyway,the fact of the matter is,the Klassik Haus transfers of No's 4 & 5 are superb........it was just my crappy cdr making (the download was interrupted once. Could that have affected it?).
I listened through the whole Brian symphonic canon over the first few days after moving. I must admit to a preference for No's 1-17;but then again  I like things about many of the later ones and maybe the fact that they're a bit tougher to crack open makes them even more intriguing?!
I didn't know you disliked No 5,John. The flowery poem is a problem;so I don't listen to it as much as some of the others. But I think there is some wonderful music there. You have to be in the right mood for the text,though. It sort of locks you into the words in a way that the others don't,where you can think about anything the music brings to mind rather than those conjured up by rather dated poetry. Not that your mind can't run free of the words;but they do tie it down in a way the abstract symphonies don't.

Incidentally,You've probably told us somewhere here John,but I was wondering,do you like the Tigers opera itself? I like it,but the structure and libretto is very eccentric and ramshackle,to say the least. On the plus side;Brian may not have Britten's sense of structure,but he has something the former seemed to lack;a sense of humour and warmth;which is why I tend to prefer the operas of Vaughan Williams,and even Delius (albeit less pronounced) even if they are supposed to meander!! I seem to recall that Goodall the conductor fell out with Britten over his later operas,which he didn't think were much cop! I always find it interesting how few pages Britten has generated at the GMG compared to Brian. I have Britten's own recordings of most of his operas,but the chief pleasure I gain from listening to them,when I do,is some of the singers he used,not the music;and no,I don't mean whats-is-name (although I don't mind him in Britten or English folksongs. He ruined anything else!)I mean people like the glorious Owen Brannigan;who has to be a long time favourite of mine. He's the sort of singer of years gone by that has me thinking,they don't make them like that anymore. He would have been great in The Tigers. Would there have been a part for him? ! A Tigers lot is not a nappy one! The Sgt of Police. Sort of,The Pirates of Penzance meets The Tigers!! Remember the way he hammed that role up? I remember nearly wearing out the bits with him singing on the old Decca D'oyly Carte recording!! (But was he even better on the emi Sargent? I bought a copy recently).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 28, 2014, 07:16:50 AM
Welcome back, cilgwyn! I have been absent, too. I am far too busy finishing part 1 of my novel. But Brian is always there. You are right about The Tigers, as far as I am concerned. The libretto is fascinating,  because it is the longest 'literary' text by Brian we have. And it fully shows the curious mind of its creator. But as drama, it is far from perfect and leaves you with a sense that part of its meaning is private. The music is glorious, though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 28, 2014, 07:45:59 AM
There certainly is something enigmatic about it! At the end you are left wondering what it really was all about.....but in the nicest possible way! I remember someone suggesting it was a sort of 'dream opera and the possibility that the Colonel,like the White Queen in Alice (? I think? My late mother liked the book) was dreaming it!! Fortunately,it's not an oppressive menacing dream world like the one in Julietta!! Brian's stream of wild ideas seem to be tumbling out full pelt here! Maybe too many for his and the operas own good?! But maybe a dramatic bent and feel for structure would have been a hindrance here. It's this sort of wild,untamed quality which makes a score like the third symphony so engrossing.
With respect to Owen Brannigan. I just looked at the cast for the opera. There would certainly have been some opportunities for him here. One for a Police Sergeant (!) and two for Sergeant Majors,albeit Regimental ones!!! I would have liked him as the Colonel! Oh well,too late now!! The R3 recording,need I add,is absolutely superb!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 28, 2014, 10:47:00 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on June 12, 2014, 12:51:38 AM
Review now live:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Jun14/Brian_Tigers_HTGCD270.htm
I had the original Forlane Lp set. It was a real treasure trove. Apart from the Symphonic movements from The Tigers there was the wonderful Parry third,full of great tunes and of course the music by John Foulds. I loved the St Joan Suite and the work included on the new Heritage cd. I played that allot. I was just looking at the timings on Musicweb.It doesn't half pack allot into 11:48!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 29, 2014, 04:15:04 AM
Another post! ;D Even if the structure of The Tigers is ramshackle and eccentric,it's still up there with my favourite English operas by Delius,Vaughan Williams,Holst,Boughton & Holbrooke (what little I've managed to hear) and The Yeomen of the Guard deserves a place on the list,I might add! In fact,I think I would put The Tigers with A Village Romeo & Juliet as my all time favourite operas......but wait a minute? Holst's Savitri. I've got add that one! Particularly in the old Decca recording. I like his other operatic efforts too allot. Concise and beautiful.The emi twofer with his lovely choral symphony & short operas is a wonderful bargain. A shame that his The Perfect Fool opera remains unrecorded (although available at the AMF and online,I gather). It's fascinating to hear the ballet in it's original context! I would like to hear Sita,too.
Hard to make up my mind really. Britten's Peter Grimes has some wonderful sea music and it's actually quite tuneful compared to the later ones (!) but like allot of Britten it's all very clever,but lacking in humour,warmth,passion and all the other things that usually draw me to a composer. Or perhaps it's just not ramshackle and eccentric enough?!! ;D Funny how our most successful opera composer is the one I least want to listen to. His own Decca recordings & the emi shellac recordings under Goodall, do get an occasional spin though.
Another thought! If only VW's Hugh the Drover had been an English Bartered Bride! Come to think of it,you don't even hear that much of the Bartered Bride these days?!! I wonder why? It's a lovely piece.  Schools and amateur operatic societies used to brain you with it. Another very beautiful VW opera is Sir John in Love. If VW's operas do ramble,they ramble on in the right way as far as I'm concerned! ;D Boughton,I do quite like. Some people think he's watered down VW;I think he's misunderstood! (I don't think he was trying to compose conventional opera in the dramatic sense). If I had to pick a favourite composer of English opera it would be Delius,though.
Will we ever get to hear a complete recording of Brian's other operas I wonder? Faust and Turandot,in particular!! The prologue to the former definitely leaves me wanting more!!

Anyway,enough rambling!! ??? ;D

         
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 29, 2014, 07:02:52 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 28, 2014, 06:42:58 AM
Back at last! I've just finished moving! Bt and my ISP took a while to move my accounts & I only got back online this afternoon! I had posts I wanted to make,but what could I do?! Smoke signals,maybe?! Anyway,the fact of the matter is,the Klassik Haus transfers of No's 4 & 5 are superb........it was just my crappy cdr making (the download was interrupted once. Could that have affected it?).
I listened through the whole Brian symphonic canon over the first few days after moving. I must admit to a preference for No's 1-17;but then again  I like things about many of the later ones and maybe the fact that they're a bit tougher to crack open makes them even more intriguing?!
I didn't know you disliked No 5,John. The flowery poem is a problem;so I don't listen to it as much as some of the others. But I think there is some wonderful music there. You have to be in the right mood for the text,though. It sort of locks you into the words in a way that the others don't,where you can think about anything the music brings to mind rather than those conjured up by rather dated poetry. Not that your mind can't run free of the words;but they do tie it down in a way the abstract symphonies don't.

Incidentally,You've probably told us somewhere here John,but I was wondering,do you like the Tigers opera itself? I like it,but the structure and libretto is very eccentric and ramshackle,to say the least. On the plus side;Brian may not have Britten's sense of structure,but he has something the former seemed to lack;a sense of humour and warmth;which is why I tend to prefer the operas of Vaughan Williams,and even Delius (albeit less pronounced) even if they are supposed to meander!! I seem to recall that Goodall the conductor fell out with Britten over his later operas,which he didn't think were much cop! I always find it interesting how few pages Britten has generated at the GMG compared to Brian. I have Britten's own recordings of most of his operas,but the chief pleasure I gain from listening to them,when I do,is some of the singers he used,not the music;and no,I don't mean whats-is-name (although I don't mind him in Britten or English folksongs. He ruined anything else!)I mean people like the glorious Owen Brannigan;who has to be a long time favourite of mine. He's the sort of singer of years gone by that has me thinking,they don't make them like that anymore. He would have been great in The Tigers. Would there have been a part for him? ! A Tigers lot is not a nappy one! The Sgt of Police. Sort of,The Pirates of Penzance meets The Tigers!! Remember the way he hammed that role up? I remember nearly wearing out the bits with him singing on the old Decca D'oyly Carte recording!! (But was he even better on the emi Sargent? I bought a copy recently).
1) Glad you are happy with your download
2) The poem in No.5 does it for me. Can't listen to it.
3) I have The Tigers but have only dipped into it. I must try it properly.
4) There is no point 4.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 29, 2014, 11:24:23 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 29, 2014, 04:15:04 AM
Another post! ;D Even if the structure of The Tigers is ramshackle and eccentric,it's still up there with my favourite English operas by Delius,Vaughan Williams,Holst,Boughton & Holbrooke (what little I've managed to hear) and The Yeomen of the Guard deserves a place on the list,I might add!

         
Not like Brian's usual stuff then?  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on July 01, 2014, 11:22:29 AM
I see that info on the Testament issue of The Tigers has appeared on their website:

https://www.testament.co.uk/default.aspx?PageID=74

No mention of an issue date, but this is good news after quite a long period of silence.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 01, 2014, 11:26:54 AM
Quote from: Augustus on July 01, 2014, 11:22:29 AM
I see that info on the Testament issue of The Tigers has appeared on their website:

https://www.testament.co.uk/default.aspx?PageID=74

No mention of an issue date, but this is good news after quite a long period of silence.
I like what I have heard of the excerpts, so I am interested!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 01, 2014, 11:34:51 AM
Thanks, Augustus! The Tigers is one of the best things Brian ever did, musically. And this performance is excellent. High time it reaches a larger audience!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 02, 2014, 04:16:50 AM
Despite my previous comments I totally agree with you,Johan! And anyway,it's the sheer eccentricity of the invention and disregard for conventional structure that make it so fascinating. I think that allot of people who only know Brian via the Gothic will be a bit surprised by this release. We have access to it of course,but others don't. This will help bring this wonderful opera to a new audience and others who may have heard it on the radio years ago and wondered about that strange opera they heard and thought they might never hear it again......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 02, 2014, 04:48:21 AM
This kind of release makes me wish there were still record stores,or latterly,cd stores like there used to be. (None where I live!!) This is the kind of release I would accidentally discover while rummaging through the A-Z racks on display. You would pull it out,look at it,read the notes and think "Hm! I think I'm going to have to buy this one? Maybe,I can just about afford this as well?!" I suppose the contemporary equivalent is surfing Amazon,and the similar products that pop up when you look at anything. But will the temptation be as strong if you don't even know who HB is,or you didn't know he composed operas,let alone comic ones? You're in a shop,you have The Tigers there in your sweating hands and the till is only a few feet away! No waiting for despatch or post! (Until you get home with it,of course! ;D).
(Of course,you can download,but it's not the same..........is it?!!!!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 02, 2014, 04:53:09 AM
I know what you mean, cilgwyn. How do you stumble on something in cyberspace? It presupposes knowledge, it presumes you are looking for what you already know.  I stumbled on MM's book in the library whilst looking for something about Bruckner. Happy days, happy discoveries!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 02, 2014, 05:43:07 AM
I should have mentioned libraries! So many discoveries there! As to record (cd) stores. You tended to look through all the racks that were there;unless it was a genre you didn't like (country and western here,for example! ;D) so sooner or later your fingers would find something unusual and you could literally just pull it out and look at it,including the notes. On the internet,as you say,you are more likely to be looking for something specific. Unless you are like me,you or Dundonnell (Colin) say,and you are obviously looking for something different or unusual. As to libraries. Here,at least in recent years,and particularly post crash,they do seem allot less adventurous in their choice of repertoire. The BBC are much help either! If I liked classical music and I hadn't heard of HB,how would I discover his music? I might have adventurous tastes but  there would less points of contact with the rare and offbeat outside the usual canon!
Also,even if there is a 'record' store,people know that they can get cds allot cheaper on the internet,so they simply don't go. Chain stores,need I add,tend to play safe in their repertory,unlike the old independents. Although,the last store selling cds here,MVC,which closed a few years ago had the odd surprise. I remember finding the emi Brian 'twofer' in the rack! Other than that,the main sourse of unusual repertoire there was the Naxos label. Lots of Bax in the rack and only around £4 if you used your MVC card and walked to the counter! I wonder how many people discovered or furthered their interest in Bax,beyond Tintagel,by finding one of those Naxos cds in a rack like that? Not my favourite Bax cycle,but a pretty good introduction. You could also find their excellent recent Brian release like that,couldn't you?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 02, 2014, 07:58:36 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 02, 2014, 04:53:09 AM
I know what you mean, cilgwyn. How do you stumble on something in cyberspace? It presupposes knowledge, it presumes you are looking for what you already know.  I stumbled on MM's book in the library whilst looking for something about Bruckner. Happy days, happy discoveries!
Are you mad?  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 02, 2014, 08:14:07 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on July 02, 2014, 07:58:36 AM
Are you mad?  :)

:P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on July 02, 2014, 08:18:22 AM
A Johan sighting!  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 02, 2014, 02:59:19 PM
We used to have a very good CD shop in Canberra (Abels in Manuka for those who know the National Capital). Its annual sale was the highlight of my musical year and I'd retire there for an afternoon and return with new listening for the next year.

It closed about 5 years ago, but just at that time I started to discover online forums like this one, with the added attraction of links to free downloads. Stranegly this only increased my CD and download purchases.....

:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 03, 2014, 02:29:55 AM
Not wishing to be a hypocrite ;D even if there was a good independent 'record' store,'like there used to be',would I go there knowing I will be paying twice or three times as much for my cds? Hm?! It's a bit like supermarkets. I definitely preferred the old style grocery store,often with a nice old lady behind the counter (etc!);but,even I could find one,they are so expensive now! Not all their fault,of course. They haven't got the buying power. Anyway,back to my main point. I have to admit,I haven't even visited the secondhand record/cd/tape stall in the market since I started buying cds on the internet. Having said that,there is a new market hall now and when I did walk past the stall it was allot smaller (tiny!) and unless she has a trapdoor in the floor and a big room underneath I can't see that she can possibly have much there anymore! Still,my main post was the way you could 'accidentally' find something unusual in one of those 'old fashioned' record stores not the pros and cons and why have they disappeared debate? Allot of happy memories though! :)

Going back to the subject of libraries. Of course,they didn't just introduce me to rare composers. I was also ploughed through Karajan Bruckner cycles,Solti Brahms symphonies and the Decca D'oyly Carte Gilbert and Sullivan recordings,Elgar symphonies (Boult,Barbirolli,Solti) Khatchaturian,Weber's Der Freischutz,Copland,Vaughan Williams,etc. They seemed to favour certain conductors. I got the feeling they liked Karajan allot and Solti was highly rated at the time. I hardly think I'd choose Elgar for Solti now. Maybe Brahms? And whoever was in charge of choosing the records obviously loved Richard Wagner!! Hardly any Richard Strauss operas!

I must admit,each to his own,but I seem to be with John on Bruckner. I do quite like his Seventh,but whatever you say about Brian,ramshackle,eccentric (the cheek!) at least his output is varied. I tried to listen to Bruckner again recently. A stretch of serene,dignified music,followed by a huge granitic solemn outburst,then another stretch (and it feels like one!) of serene music,followed by another solemn granitic outburst.......and the next symphony going through the same routine! Phew!!! ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 03, 2014, 04:34:01 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 03, 2014, 02:29:55 AM
Going back to the subject of libraries. Of course,they didn't just introduce me to rare composers. I was also ploughed through Karajan Bruckner cycles,Solti Brahms symphonies and the Decca D'oyly Carte Gilbert and Sullivan recordings,Elgar symphonies (Boult,Barbirolli,Solti) Khatchaturian,Weber's Der Freischutz,Copland,Vaughan Williams,etc. They seemed to favour certain conductors. I got the feeling they liked Karajan allot and Solti was highly rated at the time. I hardly think I'd choose Elgar for Solti now. Maybe Brahms? And whoever was in charge of choosing the records obviously loved Richard Wagner!! Hardly any Richard Strauss operas!

I must admit,each to his own,but I seem to be with John on Bruckner. I do quite like his Seventh,but whatever you say about Brian,ramshackle,eccentric (the cheek!) at least his output is varied. I tried to listen to Bruckner again recently. A stretch of serene,dignified music,followed by a huge granitic solemn outburst,then another stretch (and it feels like one!) of serene music,followed by another solemn granitic outburst.......and the next symphony going through the same routine! Phew!!! ???
I'm amazed you are still alive.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 03, 2014, 04:41:01 AM
Thank God for Bruckner.  0:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 03, 2014, 04:54:13 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 03, 2014, 02:29:55 AMI tried to listen to Bruckner again recently. A stretch of serene,dignified music,followed by a huge granitic solemn outburst,then another stretch (and it feels like one!) of serene music,followed by another solemn granitic outburst.......and the next symphony going through the same routine!

Exactly! What's not to love?  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on July 03, 2014, 06:04:18 AM
.
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 03, 2014, 07:33:01 AM
"I tried to listen to Bruckner again recently. A stretch of serene,dignified music,followed by a huge granitic solemn outburst,then another stretch (and it feels like one!) of serene music,followed by another solemn granitic outburst.......and the next symphony going through the same routine!"


I did put my foot in it there! ??? ;D


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 03, 2014, 07:36:57 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 03, 2014, 04:41:01 AM
Thank God for Bruckner.  0:)
Thank God for Brian!
Incidentally,regarding that life changing visit to the library,Johan! You came looking for Bruckner,but you found Brian? Is it possible the almighty was trying to tell you something?!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 03, 2014, 07:40:50 AM
Bruckner or Brian, I don't think we can put the blame on God.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 03, 2014, 08:18:27 AM
Quote from: springrite on July 03, 2014, 07:40:50 AM
Bruckner or Brian, I don't think we can put the blame on God.

Brutal...  :laugh:

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 03, 2014, 08:27:40 AM
Quote from: springrite on July 03, 2014, 07:40:50 AM
Bruckner or Brian, I don't think we can put the blame on God.

He still feels responsible.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 03, 2014, 08:28:28 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 03, 2014, 08:27:40 AM
He still feels responsible.

That's why we love her.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 03, 2014, 08:48:51 AM
Quote from: springrite on July 03, 2014, 08:28:28 AM
That's why we love her.

Agreement is always gratifying.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 03, 2014, 09:22:12 AM
Actually,on a more mundane level,it was probably just the fact that you were looking in the bookshelves for a book on Bruckner and the one of the librarians had put the book about Brian there! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 03, 2014, 09:26:46 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 03, 2014, 09:22:12 AM
Actually,on a more mundane level,it was probably just the fact that you were looking in the bookshelves for a book on Bruckner and the one of the librarians had put the book about Brian there! ;D

It was a fateful (and very happy) swap...  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 04, 2014, 06:49:32 AM
As I said!!! ;D

"I tried to listen to Bruckner again recently. A stretch of serene,dignified music,followed by a huge granitic solemn outburst,then another stretch (and it feels like one!) of serene music,followed by another solemn granitic outburst.......and the next symphony going through the same routine!"

Not to mention Delius! Page after page of meandering musings,most of it low volume,about cuckoos,sleigh rides and summer nights on rivers,with only the occasional passionate outburst breaking the flow!

That's why we Delians love him! ;D


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 17, 2014, 09:40:26 AM
Here's a review of the Peter Hill Brian piano music.
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Jul14/Brian_piano_CC9016CD.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 02, 2014, 05:54:43 AM
I hadn't heard this story before until I found this appended comment by a Dr RG Bullock today while browsing reviews of Arnold Cooke cds. Of course most Brianites will undoubtedly be familiar with it!

"You describe Brian as 'curmudgeonly' and that reminded me of a piece by Robert Simpson I read about thirty years ago. He was describing a visit to Brian's house in Shoreham and an incident when Brian opened his cellar door to look down. Simpson was standing nearby with Brian's wife. "Sometimes I get the urge to shove him down the steps!", she whispered to Simpson (or something to that effect). I think she meant it in jest but I got the impression that the composer could be a bit of a so-and-so".

Not sure if I should quote that in full,but thank you to Dr Bullock (before it gets pulled!! ;D) for your interesting comments there,and the other chap!. I used to have the Kenneth Eastaugh biography of HB;unfortunately,like a number of HB scores,it went missing,never to be found again. As far as I know it's out of print now and the only one of it's kind;although maybe not strictly speaking an autobiography? I note that one review on Amazon compares it to Schaffer's 'Amadeus',suggesting that you end up viewing Brian "through a glass darkly!" I think I had the Reginald Nettel book too at some point. I believe this was pioneering in certain respects,but the author of the review obviously doesn't think too much of it! I wonder if the Eastaugh is worth obtaining s/h? At least I might know what I'm talking about sometimes! ;D

I also noticed that a biography of Robert Simpson was released in May this year. Released in a paperback edition in June this presumably has some interesting stuff about his time at the BBC,various runs-ins and promotion of you-know-who!! Has anyone got this here I wonder. It's very tempting at only £11.22 for 424 pages,post free. It has one five star review there!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 02, 2014, 06:04:39 AM
Thanks for the anecdote, cilgwyn! Very characteristic. I think both Mr and Mrs Brian were strong and self-willed, so they must have been an ideal match... Regarding the Eastaugh biography, I read it twice. It has some interesting bits, but it isn't a memorable read. I have forgotten most of it. Again.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 02, 2014, 06:46:19 AM
So it could have been Mrs Brian down the old staircase?!! ??? ;D Personally,I think this is just a black humour rhat some couples engage in. But he did get a bit grumpy sometimes,after a few bottles,I gather?!! I also gather that I'm not missing too much by missing out on this volume. The Simpson book sounds more interesting,but I think I will wait until I get it cheaply s/h. (I'll be reading it for nuggets other than Simpson's own music,I fear!) The Schaffer comparison is interesting,if OTT comparison.Poor old Salieri,eh?!! I think that the tendency is to dig out negative aspects and emphasise them in the belief that it will make more entertaining reading. Unfortunately,in some cases mud appears to stick! You just have to be discerning enough to form your own opinion. A bit like watching the news or reading a newspaper. You don't want to take everything that's thrown at you at face value! And of course,with any volume like this,good or bad,your only hearing it secondhand. If someone ever wrote a biography of Mrs Brian,unlikely I fear (!),maybe we would hear allot of negative things about her! My own feeling is that Brian had various issues early on in his life but that he was by no means a bad person. Later on he seems to have mellowed,become more philosophical in outlook and I find the elderly Brian a quite admirable person with a nice turn in dry,self deprecatory humour. In fact,Brian' strong sense of humour throughout his life is one of the things that I particularly like about him and separates him from some of his embittered contemporaries,like Scott and Holbrooke,who could have done with a dash of it themselves. On a personal level it obviously helped to keep him going! And,unlike Scott and Holbrooke (who were more grieviously neglected,to be fair) he died a contented man! Anyway,as Joe E Brown put it,at the end of the movie,'Some like it Hot'......"well nobody's perfect".
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 02, 2014, 12:42:25 PM
Re the Robert Simpson biography Cilgwyn mentioned.

In September 2013 on the RS thread I wrote:

"The Power of Robert Simpson by Donald Macauley (a family friend of Simpson) is available from Google Books as an e-book for $10.

I've just finished reading through the main part (still have various appendices to read). I reckon it's well-worth downloading, it certainly has lots of information about Simpson I wasn't aware of before and background to his various compositions."

Is this the same work?

I'd still recommend it, the book is rather naively written by someone who isn't an expert on music or British musical life of the period (but doesn't claim to be). Lot of information in it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 04, 2014, 10:30:02 PM
What happened to the Testament recording of Brian's Tigers opera? I don't see it on their website as a new or upcoming release anymore.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2014, 11:53:20 PM
I know someone connected to the project. All seemed to be on course, last time he spoke to me about it (on Facebook).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on August 05, 2014, 02:44:06 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 04, 2014, 10:30:02 PM
What happened to the Testament recording of Brian's Tigers opera? I don't see it on their website as a new or upcoming release anymore.


(https://www.testament.co.uk/images/1400/SBT1496.jpg)

https://www.testament.co.uk/default.aspx?PageID=74 (https://www.testament.co.uk/default.aspx?PageID=74)

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 05, 2014, 09:20:42 AM
I may be mistaken,but isn't the picture on the front of the box set the one that appeared in the Radio Times when 'The Tigers' was broadcast?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 05, 2014, 02:40:57 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 02, 2014, 06:04:39 AM
Thanks for the anecdote, cilgwyn! Very characteristic. I think both Mr and Mrs Brian were strong and self-willed, so they must have been an ideal match... Regarding the Eastaugh biography, I read it twice. It has some interesting bits, but it isn't a memorable read. I have forgotten most of it. Again.
It's unfortunate that the only biography of HB is apparently so dull! Still we have his music,don't we!
I do however find it interesting and ironic that one of Reginald Nettel's other books is about Santa Claus! Maybe there is some connection? You never know?! Of course,I was a little to old to believe in Santa Claus by the time I discovered Havergal Brian. I remember it was thanks to that tubby little b****** in the school playground that I finally found out! I had my suspicions of course. Especially after I found that space gun in mothers dressing table! I remember thinking she was a bit old for that kind of thing! Also,she got grumpy and closed the drawer!! Mind you,if I had discovered HB earlier I would have probably lost count of the requests for recordings of unrecorded works floating up the family chimney and thereby,as you might say,literally going up in smoke! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 08, 2014, 02:18:37 AM
Interesting post!! The very kind the "remove" button was created for! Must keep off the 'juice'! (It was a great space gun,though!!) My 82 year old father reckons a can helps him sleep!! Yes,well............?!!

I shouldn't really post this here,but listening to the first of the pile of Tubin cds that came through the letterbox today,and particularly No 6 (after the marvelous No2) which is only the second one I've listened to,so far. Some of this is very loud and exciting,in a visceral kind of way. Not bombastic at all,imho. But it did make me think of John and his love of all things Khatchaturian......except that Tubin unlike Khatchaturian has depth! And let's face it,there's nothing wrong with music being noisy as long as it's noisy for a very good reason.Although,I might make an exception for John's power tool crazed neighbours! (Interesting that the girl in The Texas Chainsaw Massacre passed away this week!) Leave those poor,quiet,harmless trees alone,I say!!!

I also went on A Vagn Holmboe binge! I am very impressed by this composer,but I was a little worried about some of the posts about No 4 on the GMG Holmboe thread. There seems to be a consensus of opinion that No4 is Holmboe's weakest symphony. It's also his least popular! What really worried me was the fact that it's a choral symphony and some of the posts seem to imply that it was loud,on the bombastic side and might even sound a bit like a certain other Fourth symphony that isn't too popular with some people! In fact,by the time the package came I was thinking.........is this (gulp!) going to be a Danish Das Siegeslied?!! As it turns out Holmboe's Fourth is allot quieter in places. Not that some of it isn't noisy,but it doesn't need one of those old warnings on the front about damaging things,like some of those early cds did! In fact,after listening to Das Siegeslied,I might even go so far as to suggest winding down to Holmboe's Fourth,then some Jon Leifs for general relaxation!! ??? ;D

Of course,Holmboe's Fourth is subtitled "Sinfonia Sacra",so it's not entirely surprising really! Those GMG posts did get me going though!! ??? >:( ;D

This is all calyptorhyncus's fault,mind!! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 10, 2014, 03:38:29 AM
Listening to some Russian nationalists (the music kind!) from the late 19thc I couldn't resist the Klassik Haus resoration of Rimsky Korsakov's Antar Symphony,coupled with Miaskovsky's Twenty First;both conducted by Morton Gould! These recordings,are rated very highly indeed by some. In fact,the Gould Antar is regarded as one of the finest ever. First released on RCA( and never reissued by them) I downloaded them from Klassik Haus yesterday,coupling them on a cdr with The Tale of Tsar Saltan suite (& the Bumblebee!) in a recording made by Ashkenazy,in the 80s (I think). I was a bit worried that the earlier recordings might sound their age in juxtaposition with the newer ones. My fears were unfounded. In fact the older Morton Gould recordings probably sounded even better (less resonance,more detail) in some ways than the newer ones. I wonder if vandermolen knows about these superb transfers? (Although he has a 'Bearac' cd transfer,apparently!) Absolutely,superb performances. Possibly the best I have ever heard and in magnificent sound for the era. The Miaskovsky 21 even beats the Measham Unicorn performance,it's that good! RCA should be absolutely ashamed of not reissuing these performances. Another triumph for Klassik Haus it appears and a fraction of the price of the Bearac transfer,which is only available as a cd!

Can't wait for The Tigers Testament release. This will happen in the Autumn,sometime,I presume? I can't find a release date on their website (I DID go to Specsavers!!)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 10, 2014, 10:12:11 AM
Thanks for the info, cilgwyn! I usually get an email from Klassic Haus with their latest releases, but I missed this. I love Myaskovsky. I might well spend some money there...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 10, 2014, 10:14:10 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 10, 2014, 03:38:29 AM
Listening to some Russian nationalists (the music kind!) from the late 19thc I couldn't resist the Klassik Haus resoration of Rimsky Korsakov's Antar Symphony,coupled with Miaskovsky's Twenty First;both conducted by Morton Gould! These recordings,are rated very highly indeed by some. In fact,the Gould Antar is regarded as one of the finest ever. First released on RCA( and never reissued by them) I downloaded them from Klassik Haus yesterday,coupling them on a cdr with The Tale of Tsar Saltan suite (& the Bumblebee!) in a recording made by Ashkenazy,in the 80s (I think). I was a bit worried that the earlier recordings might sound their age in juxtaposition with the newer ones. My fears were unfounded. In fact the older Morton Gould recordings probably sounded even better (less resonance,more detail) in some ways than the newer ones. I wonder if vandermolen knows about these superb transfers? (Although he has a 'Bearac' cd transfer,apparently!) Absolutely,superb performances. Possibly the best I have ever heard and in magnificent sound for the era. The Miaskovsky 21 even beats the Measham Unicorn performance,it's that good! RCA should be absolutely ashamed of not reissuing these performances. Another triumph for Klassik Haus it appears and a fraction of the price of the Bearac transfer,which is only available as a cd!

Can't wait for The Tigers Testament release. This will happen in the Autumn,sometime,I presume? I can't find a release date on their website (I DID go to Specsavers!!)!
I haven't heard this. Must get hold of it. I've emailed Curt to tell him you are pleased.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 10, 2014, 10:20:52 AM
Just listened to the sample - yes, 'Antar' sounds excellent, but the Miaskovsky sounds amazing.


P.S. Just bought it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 10, 2014, 11:50:20 AM
Yes,the Antar is excellent,but the Miaskovsky is superb. I didn't think I'd find one to beat the Measham! If you look in the Rimsky Korsakov  and Miaskovsky threads you'll see posts by vandermolen (and,another member) praising the Gould recordings and expressing regret at their continued absence from the catalogue. The Antar is praised elsewhere. I'm a bit of a fan of that score. Svetlanove is excellent of course,but I like the underrated Abravanel recording as well. (He did a very good Goldmark Rustic Wedding Symphony too) Utah does seem somewhat appropriate for a storyline which takes in a desert!! The Miaskovsky is something special though because it's just so superbly realised and I don't think I've heard anything else as good! And as John would say,the download is as "cheap as chips!"

I hate to say this,but I wish they could do the long deleted RCA Tjeknavorian recording of Khatchaturian's First Symphony. In the opinion of vandermolen and yours truly,the finest ever. It has a sweep and grandeur (if you like that sort of thing,of course! ;D) which eludes all the other recordings!

The only downside! The excitement of the Gould Antar/ Miaskovsky download has led to a spending binge on cds of Russian nationalist composers! :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 11, 2014, 06:47:55 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 10, 2014, 11:50:20 AM
Yes,the Antar is excellent,but the Miaskovsky is superb. I didn't think I'd find one to beat the Measham! If you look in the Rimsky Korsakov  and Miaskovsky threads you'll see posts by vandermolen (and,another member) praising the Gould recordings and expressing regret at their continued absence from the catalogue. The Antar is praised elsewhere. I'm a bit of a fan of that score. Svetlanove is excellent of course,but I like the underrated Abravanel recording as well. (He did a very good Goldmark Rustic Wedding Symphony too) Utah does seem somewhat appropriate for a storyline which takes in a desert!! The Miaskovsky is something special though because it's just so superbly realised and I don't think I've heard anything else as good! And as John would say,the download is as "cheap as chips!"

I hate to say this,but I wish they could do the long deleted RCA Tjeknavorian recording of Khatchaturian's First Symphony. In the opinion of vandermolen and yours truly,the finest ever. It has a sweep and grandeur (if you like that sort of thing,of course! ;D) which eludes all the other recordings!

The only downside! The excitement of the Gould Antar/ Miaskovsky download has led to a spending binge on cds of Russian nationalist composers! :( ;D
Why?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 11, 2014, 07:19:44 AM
I was just thinking of you,John! ;D I'm not such a fan of Khatchaturian these days,but I agree with vandermolen that this is the best ever recording. Like I said,there is a grandeur and sweep about the performance which seems to make this problematic symphony work. It has that special magic about it. If memory serves me correctly,it's also a spectacular recording. Tjeknavorian's later recordings for ASV were pretty lousy. This one gets it right!

Looking at reviews of Jarvi's Chandos recording of Khatchaturian's Second Symphony the other day I was amused at the amount of customer reviews raving about how LOUD it was and urging people to buy it because it's SO LOUD!! Five stars for loudness?! Whatever next?!! ???  Naturally,being a discerning listener,I bought it!! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 11, 2014, 07:29:11 AM
I love Khachaturian's Second Symphony in Järvi's performance. It's a fine piece. Is the First just as good (or even better)?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 11, 2014, 09:12:08 AM
I used to play my Decca Lp of Khatchaturian's famous recording of his Second Symphony over and over again as a youngster. The other regular visitor to my turntable was Tjeknavorian's RCA recording of his First. I loved it! I think it is one of Khatchaturian's most heartfelt works. It has an epic quality,full of exciting rhythms,but also tenderness and sadness,presumably a reflection of the tragic history of the country. Unlike,No2 it is not a war symphony. It is allot sunnier and has an almost technicolor brilliance about it in places,almost filmic. Having said that,like his Second Symphony I think it has a good deal more depth than the ballet scores. I tend to agree with someone on this forum who mentioned that he preferred the symphonies to his other scores (was it you?) Of course,No 3 is maybe an exception to this rule! I recall some massive chords,like hammer blows in one part of the score. I'm no musician and can't remember exactly what they were. The recording certainly gave my record player speakers a pounding. The symphony ends in what sounds like a sequence of fiery fashion that might have emerged from the pages of Gayaneh,only better! It's very spectacular!  Having said that,it's not all noise. I feel this symphony and it's successor get allot closer to the real Khatchaturian behind all the noise and spectacle.
If you want to hear it don't bother with the very disappointing ASV recording. The RCA Tjeknavorian is the one to hear! Unfortunately it's unavailable! :( I wonder why the Jarvi/Chandos team didn't record it?!! I think,along with No2,it's Khatchaturian at his best. I'm not sure if it's better,though. Just different! Although I preferred it to No 2 as a youngster. It's certainly allot better than No3,which if you're in the right mood could be described politely as,so bad it's good! ;D (but only when played very LOUD!!)

As to what this post has to do with Havergal Brian,I don't know? Oh wait a minute! I've got it! It's in the Havergal Brian thread!!! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 11, 2014, 11:03:03 AM
Tjeknavorian is here... Will 'tjek' it out later...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apjXRoeFNS8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apjXRoeFNS8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 11, 2014, 12:42:41 PM
Good! However this is the recording I was referring to. I didn't like Tjeknavorian's later recording. This one has the sweep and grandeur I was referring to. The orchestra easily outclasses his recording with the Armenian band as did the spectacular RCA recording. I just feel there's no comparison. Have a look at vandermolen's comments in the Khatchaturian thread (Page 3). He's familiar with the recording!
It is,admittedly,a while since I heard this performance,but I can still 'play it back' it in my head!). The cover artwork is apt. The final pages do make you think of the fiery parts of Gayaneh. I have scoured the internet for a download. Sometimes you get one via those deleted Lp blogs. So far,no luck! :(

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/dinasman/KGrHqFlsFJj06Di7oBScBcc393w60_57_zps044f6909.jpg)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 11, 2014, 02:17:42 PM
Gone! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 11, 2014, 02:21:03 PM
And,hopefully,back to Brian,as they say! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 18, 2014, 12:55:43 PM
I must say I'm very impressed by John's perceptive reviewing on Musicweb. I enjoy listening to Dohnanyi's blockbuster symphony now and again,but I have certain reservations which mean that it doesn't make as many return visits to my cd player as some other blockbusters, that shall pass nameless! ;D John's review nailed all the problems I have with this score; particularly the "bizarre" Allegro which could be fun on it's own,but always has me metaphorically,at least,scratching my head!  A great wallow when you're in the right mood,though! Maybe a job with IRR Magazine next?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 18, 2014, 01:08:50 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 18, 2014, 12:55:43 PM
I must say I'm very impressed by John's perceptive reviewing on Musicweb.

A link would be helpful.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 18, 2014, 01:18:15 PM
Apologies Sarge! Hope this works!

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Aug14/Dohnanyi_sy2_8573008.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Aug14/Dohnanyi_sy2_8573008.htm)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 18, 2014, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 18, 2014, 01:18:15 PM
Apologies Sarge! Hope this works!

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Aug14/Dohnanyi_sy2_8573008.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Aug14/Dohnanyi_sy2_8573008.htm)

It does. Thanks.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on August 19, 2014, 04:04:19 AM
I wonder to what extent John's dissatisfaction is a matter of the band.  I once heard the BBC Phil recording on Chandos . . . curious to go back and hear it again.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on August 19, 2014, 10:12:50 AM
Quote from: Jn WhitmoreThe beautiful Adagio is followed by a most bizarre little Allegro that just doesn't seem to fit into the overall symphonic scheme of the work. This is a four minute burst of circus music. It's something that is more akin to the music you would encounter in the Jazz Suites of Shostakovich. Does it sound like the third movement of a romantic symphony? For me the answer is no.

Well, I'm going to differ with our John.  Not over its being a four-minute burst of circus music (which is fair, though I take it non-pejoratively);  nor over its second-cousin kinship to the spirit of Shostakovich's lighter music.

I guess that actually I agree with John's Q&A, there:  Does it sound like the third movement of a romantic symphony? For me, the answer is no, too;  only I suppose that I should not require of a symphony written in 1945, that the composer completely forget what has happened musically for 50 years, and write a scherzo that must keep in the spirit of the late 19th century.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2014, 12:23:22 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 19, 2014, 04:04:19 AM
I wonder to what extent John's dissatisfaction is a matter of the band.  I once heard the BBC Phil recording on Chandos . . . curious to go back and hear it again.
I hadn't heard the piece before and didn't know what to expect. I think the orchestra is well up to the mark but the work as a whole is very dissatisfying. As much as I love my local band the BBC Phil wouldn't change my mind. Thanks for the kind words and reviews about my reviews by the way! I just report what I hear.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2014, 03:00:10 AM
I like what I've seen of John's reviews,so far! ;D While the 'newspaper' critics seem to react almost as if they are on autopilot in their dismissal of anything unfamiliar,neglected and usually of a tonal disposition (the Guardian critic,Andrew Clements,being a case in point);John actually comes over as actually having genuinely listened to the piece. While evaluating it with a healthy pinch of salt,he then proceeds,at great length (but not overlong,I might add!) to detail the pros and cons of the piece.
In contrast to the aforementioned Andrew Clement's & co,there does seem to be a growing tendency amongst Musicweb or IRR critic to get all mushy about a piece of music just because it's neglected and (usually) tonal. As if blinded by the sheer novelty of a neglected opus or an over whelming urge to be kind to a spurned child,they just can't bring themselves to the point of saying out loud that there are allot of jolly good reasons why it's been left to gather dust! Not that this means it isn't worth hearing? Brian's Second and third symphonies are a case in point! Particularly,the latter. A sprawling,explosion of undisciplined eccentricity if ever there was!! ??? ;D Unfortunately,Dohnanyi's Second,while it does have it's moments (I like the epic feel to the first movement) has more than it's fair share of chaff;and thank you to John for pointing it out! As to why Brian (almost) get's away with it,and poor old ;D Dohnanyi doesn't? Well,with all his flaws,Brian's just Brian,isn't he? You can't really mistake him for anybody! Dohnanyi meanwhile,for all his apparent flair for colorful orchestration,is stuck in his late romantic strait jacket;struggling to get out! But who cares if you like that sort of thing! That's what cd players are for!! ;D

Finally,I can't help wondering whether John will be reviewing any cds of Bruckner and Khatchaturian in the near,or more distant,future?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 26, 2014, 05:33:38 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 26, 2014, 03:00:10 AM
I like what I've seen of John's reviews,so far! ;D While the 'newspaper' critics seem to react almost as if they are on autopilot in their dismissal of anything unfamiliar,neglected and usually of a tonal disposition (the Guardian critic,Andrew Clements,being a case in point);John actually comes over as actually having genuinely listened to the piece. While evaluating it with a healthy pinch of salt,he then proceeds,at great length (but not overlong,I might add!) to detail the pros and cons of the piece.
In contrast to the aforementioned Andrew Clement's & co,there does seem to be a growing tendency amongst Musicweb or IRR critic to get all mushy about a piece of music just because it's neglected and (usually) tonal. As if blinded by the sheer novelty of a neglected opus or an over whelming urge to be kind to a spurned child,they just can't bring themselves to the point of saying out loud that there are allot of jolly good reasons why it's been left to gather dust! Not that this means it isn't worth hearing? Brian's Second and third symphonies are a case in point! Particularly,the latter. A sprawling,explosion of undisciplined eccentricity if ever there was!! ??? ;D Unfortunately,Dohnanyi's Second,while it does have it's moments (I like the epic feel to the first movement) has more than it's fair share of chaff;and thank you to John for pointing it out! As to why Brian (almost) get's away with it,and poor old ;D Dohnanyi doesn't? Well,with all his flaws,Brian's just Brian,isn't he? You can't really mistake him for anybody! Dohnanyi meanwhile,for all his apparent flair for colorful orchestration,is stuck in his late romantic strait jacket;struggling to get out! But who cares if you like that sort of thing! That's what cd players are for!! ;D

Finally,I can't help wondering whether John will be reviewing any cds of Bruckner and Khatchaturian in the near,or more distant,future?!
Funnily enough:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Oct12/Bruckner_sy7_2011408.htm
and also
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Aug14/Everest_survey.htm
I tried to be kind but failed miserably I'm afraid.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 26, 2014, 05:44:54 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 26, 2014, 05:33:38 AM
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Oct12/Bruckner_sy7_2011408.htm


A fair review...you didn't let your feelings about Bruckner's music get in the way.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 26, 2014, 02:14:20 PM
As I life-long Brucknerian I heartily recommend Celibidache's EMI recordings (even if they were obtained with the conductor (who never wanted to have his performances recorded) being unaware), 6 & 7 are heavenly and 4 is the only recording to be recommended, because only Celibidache gets the tempo of the finale right.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on August 28, 2014, 02:29:21 AM
A blue plaque has been put up on the house of Harold Truscott at Claremont Road in Deal, Kent.
He wrote about and promoted Brian's music so I thought some here might be interested?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 28, 2014, 03:25:15 AM
Thanks for the info, Steve! let's hope a few people will be inspired to check out Truscott's music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 28, 2014, 02:23:36 PM
That's interesting, that was his birth place, right? Because he spend the latter half of his life teaching at a Polytechnic in Yorkshire (Huddesfield?)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on August 28, 2014, 10:32:18 PM
He lived there at the time of his death. He taught in Sandwich, which is close by, before getting the post at Huddersfield.

I've scanned the article and will send it to anyone who wants it.....it's not long or exciting.

Deal is popular with musicians, John Ireland stayed here enough for a blue plaque and even wrote a musical description in his Sea Idyll.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 13, 2014, 07:00:34 AM
Truscott's Symphony on the Marco Polo is a fine craggy work with a movingly defiant ending of glowering darkness - a tremendous work IMHO which would appeal to fans of HB. Truscott's 'Elegy' on the same CD is also rather moving. Have been enjoying HB's Symphonic Movements from The Tigers, especially the one entitled 'Green Pastures'. The Heritage CD is super as it also includes the terrific 'Pasquinade Symphonique No. 1' by John Foulds which is an epic score in under twelve minutes, with a fine valedictory conclusion. This is one of my most played CDs at the moment.
[asin]B00K1LJRAM[/asin]
[asin]B00000462S[/asin]
Harold Truscott wrote the chapter on Havergal Brian in the old Penguin Guide to the Symphony (not the CD Guide). It was the first thing I read about Havergal Brian and inspired my interest in the composer. I remember him writing about the 'hard won' sense of victory at the end of the 10th Symphony which is, I think, very true.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 14, 2014, 12:50:11 AM
A bit boring perhaps, but I concur with your remarks about those two CDs, Jeffrey. The Truscott I have known for many years, and all the pieces on it are winners. A pity I don't know his piano sonatas; judging by the quality contained on this CD, they really should be something. As for the Brian/Foulds disc, I have known and appreciated the music since the 1980s, they're part of my personal history.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 14, 2014, 12:56:27 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 14, 2014, 12:50:11 AM
A bit boring perhaps, but I concur with your remarks about those two CDs, Jeffrey. The Truscott I have known for many years, and all the pieces on it are winners. A pity I don't know his piano sonatas; judging by the quality contained on this CD, they really should be something. As for the Brian/Foulds disc, I have known and appreciated the music since the 1980s, they're part of my personal history.

Not boring at all Johan and great to hear your views on this. I think that my very first encounter with HB was that old LP with symphonies 10 and 21 on followed by the magnificent Groves LP with symphonies 8 and 9. I remember that when I got my first ever teaching job back in 1978 the very eccentric Principal of the rather Dickensian (in a benign way) school asked, on hearing that I liked classical music, if I knew of Havergal Brian. So HB probably got me the job. The Principal was a fanatical Celibidache enthusiast.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 14, 2014, 01:13:45 AM
Your Principal must have been a Brucknerian, too. Like me. (And don't let John hear it, whose review of Celibidache/Bruckner is very fair, btw. )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 14, 2014, 07:52:45 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 14, 2014, 01:13:45 AM
Your Principal must have been a Brucknerian, too. Like me. (And don't let John hear it, whose review of Celibidache/Bruckner is very fair, btw. )
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 16, 2014, 10:57:43 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 14, 2014, 07:52:45 AM
:)
My review was much too fair.I think I will have to rewrite it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 17, 2014, 02:41:00 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 01, 2014, 02:22:40 PM
I seem to remember that at the beginning of the year we were to look forward to new recordings of HB  symphonies by Dutton and Naxos.

Yet here we are nearly at the end of the year, and nothing has appeared.

:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 01, 2014, 02:45:15 PM
Hi, calyptorhynchus. Let me fill you in.


Earlier this year it was announced: 1) Dutton will be recording Symphonies Nos. 5, 19 and 21 in July; 2) In May Naxos will be recording Nos. 6, 28, 29 and 31 with Alexander Walker and the New Russia State SO. From the latest two Newsletters of the HBS we learn that 1) the "Naxos recording of symphonies 6, 28, 29 and 31 under Alexander Walker was completed as scheduled during late May. The orchestra was apparently very taken with the Tragica, as was Alex Walker with no. 28, so we look forward to an exciting issue before too long." And 2) for the Dutton CD Symphony 21 was replaced with symphony 27 plus Festal Dance. "The sessions for the latest Dutton disc, comprising symphonies 5, 19, 27 and Festal Dance took place successfully on Friday 25th and Monday 28th July in the Royal Scottish National Orchestra's home at the Henry Wood Hall in Glasgow, in the shadow of the Commonwealth Games." (As for The Tigers, it "will  be appearing hopefully during the autumn. The complex task of setting the libretto for the booklet is nearing completion, which will pave the way for the release.")
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 01, 2014, 10:40:17 PM
Good news about 27 for 21. This means all the symphonies will have had a modern recording when these two are released except for 14.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 01, 2014, 10:45:07 PM
Yep. And 26...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 01, 2014, 11:49:55 PM
Damn that 26, the Cinderella of the symphonies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 01, 2014, 11:53:07 PM
A Cinderella in heavy armour.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 29, 2014, 11:06:54 AM
I knowc it's not Havergal Brian,but just in case anyone is interested here (Johan,perhaps?) I must try and record this. It doesn't often happen!! :( ;D (Click on "show more") :

//http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04mbnzb

Hope the link works!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: North Star on October 29, 2014, 11:24:02 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 29, 2014, 11:06:54 AM
I knowc it's not Havergal Brian,but just in case anyone is interested here (Johan,perhaps?) I must try and record this. It doesn't often happen!! :( ;D (Click on "show more") :

//http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04mbnzb

Hope the link works!

Perhaps Mr. Lewis was inspired by fellow member Luke Ottevanger's work.. http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,44.msg637641.html#msg637641
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 25, 2014, 02:41:48 PM
After a few months of not listening to HB, and listening to more relaxed composers, I listened to the Symphonies 16 and 30 last night, and they had their usual powerful effect.

I know Johan likes Shakespearean quotations, so I have no hesitation in saying the first thing that came into my mind after the first few bars of 16 was from King Lear: 'Here's three on's are sophisticated, but thou art the thing itself...'

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 25, 2014, 03:41:59 PM
Hello, calyptorhynchus! I like the quotation. I have been deepening my knowledge of Bruckner these past few months, so HB has been rather absent. But I know that when he returns, my reaction to his music won't be dissimilar to yours...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 27, 2014, 03:38:50 AM
With all the new recordings currently on the horizon I don't think you'll be leaving it too long! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 27, 2014, 04:07:56 AM
You could be right, cilgwyn...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on November 27, 2014, 11:13:41 AM
There's a thread on the Good Music Guide forum that suggests the new Dutton of Brian 5, 19 & 27 will be out as soon as December, having already gone off to the factory:
http://artmusic.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,4281.msg22277/topicseen.html#msg22277


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2014, 04:16:51 AM
Thanks, Augustus!

HB died 42 years ago today and he's still going strong. Not for millions, of course. But a motivated minority isn't bad.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 03, 2014, 07:59:29 AM
Indeed! Although,no Elvis style glimpses of him since,sadly! (ie I saw Havergal Brian in my burger!) Although,there was something,wasn't there? I think he was bemoaning a lost score,if I remember correctly?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 03, 2014, 08:02:06 AM
That sounds like him. :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 09, 2014, 06:30:26 AM
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Tigers-Lionel-Friend/dp/B00Q6QRCO4/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1418138943&sr=8-5&keywords=havergal+brian+tigers (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Tigers-Lionel-Friend/dp/B00Q6QRCO4/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1418138943&sr=8-5&keywords=havergal+brian+tigers)

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 09, 2014, 06:35:15 AM
Excellent!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 09, 2014, 06:37:27 AM
Quote from: Albion on December 09, 2014, 06:30:26 AM
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Tigers-Lionel-Friend/dp/B00Q6QRCO4/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1418138943&sr=8-5&keywords=havergal+brian+tigers (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Tigers-Lionel-Friend/dp/B00Q6QRCO4/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1418138943&sr=8-5&keywords=havergal+brian+tigers)

:)
More Famous Last Words:

"I won't be buying any more cds until after the General Election!" :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 09, 2014, 06:43:41 AM
Well, I have to be a bit careful with my finances, so any temptation I may feel is handily  restrained. I'll buy it next month...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 09, 2014, 07:07:40 AM
Unfortunately,I decided to fill in allot of the major gaps in my collection in one go!! I stocked up on allot of digital recordings of VW symphonies I didn't have (I had mostly Boult)the Chandos Arnold symphony cycle,the Moeran Boult and Dilkes,Rawsthorne Piano Concertos,lots of Respighi (Chandos,BIS),Hubert Parry cds,George Dyson Chandos cds,Foulds (Warner twofer,the Lyrita I didn't have),Korngold Chandos & Hyperion,Bax I didn't have including chamber & piano music (Chandos,etc) the Violin & Cello Concertos,Bainton's third,Stenhammar Serenade (BIS),Walton Syms 1 & 2 (Sargent,Previn),Scriabin Piano Sonatas (Hyperion),Dvorak,Smetana(Ancerl) & a couple of weeks ago (July or August?)the Tubin (BIS) & Vagn Holmboe cycles!!

You see the problem! The postman does start to give you extremely funny looks!! So no more until next May at least. I did make an exception for the forthcoming Brian cds and anything very unusual that hasn't been recorded before! But it will have to be something really special! But no more dribs and drabs.......I've got them now!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 09, 2014, 07:17:21 AM
I'm amazed there's still food on the table in the Cilgwyn household. But in the worst-case scenario you'll have an extremely musical death.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 09, 2014, 07:29:37 AM
It reminds me of my late mother,"You can't wear cds!" :(

It's going to be a job fighting the temptation!
Of the less well known repertoire I picked up in my haul,I was particularly impressed by the music on the Chandos Respighi Concerto Gregoriano cd,the Dyson Symphony,Violin Concerto (and the suite),Foulds Hellas suite (which I hadn't heard before) Bax's Violin Concerto,which I didn't know (except from a poor off air recording),Bax's Chamber music and the Boult Moeran is just wonderful!! I liked the  more reflective,lyrical Dilkes,too (I had Handley & Heward). Rawsthorne's Piano Concertos are very impressive imho.....but I fear the rest of his music is a bit too,er,thorny for me! :( ;D
More of this on the relevant threads!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 09, 2014, 07:34:00 AM
Dyson - check. Moeran - check. Rawsthorne - check. Your binge is forgiven, my son.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Fagotterdämmerung on December 09, 2014, 09:39:34 AM
  Charmed to see a coterie of Brian fans! I so often feel like the only one.  ???

  His work has a vibrancy and a variance in textures that has a unique charm to my ears. Many Romantics, even those with an ear for color, often treat the orchestra in a very rote way: with Brian, I always feel there is a constant swell and change in an out of density and color; a bit like the movement of water at sea.

 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 09, 2014, 11:13:00 AM
Oh,we love Brian here! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 09, 2014, 11:50:11 AM
Quote from: Fagotterdämmerung on December 09, 2014, 09:39:34 AM
  Charmed to see a coterie of Brian fans! I so often feel like the only one.  ???

  His work has a vibrancy and a variance in textures that has a unique charm to my ears. Many Romantics, even those with an ear for color, often treat the orchestra in a very rote way: with Brian, I always feel there is a constant swell and change in an out of density and color; a bit like the movement of water at sea.

I would say it's more like being waterboarded.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 09, 2014, 12:43:32 PM
Welcome, Fagotterdämmerung (I like your handle)! Yes, in this cosy corner of GMG we cherish the curious works of old Havergal.

And welcome back, Sforzando (and in most characteristic fashion)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 10, 2014, 02:32:18 AM
And very topical! Who knows,maybe the CIA will start using the complete works of Havergal Brian? Das Siegeslied first,then the Gothic....full blast and plenty of bass,of course! They'd soon buckle! ??? ;D

The Beatles would do it for me! I'm afraid I don't share Brian's enthusiasm for them! A few bars of 'Lucy in the sky with diamonds'!All those shrilled Liverpudlian accents in unison! Noooooooooooooooooo!! I'll tell you anything!

(Each to his own,eh?)


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 10, 2014, 02:35:10 AM
I wouldn't mind being Brianboarded.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 10, 2014, 02:41:03 AM
 ;D Anyone up for the challenge?!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 10, 2014, 04:10:27 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 09, 2014, 06:43:41 AM
Well, I have to be a bit careful with my finances, so any temptation I may feel is handily  restrained. I'll buy it next month...
I think I will do the same. I understand the Dutton cd will be released in the New Year. I wonder who the soloist is in No 5? There are people out there who know!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 10, 2014, 04:14:03 AM
Acclaimed baritone Roderick Williams.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 10, 2014, 04:21:38 AM
Thank you,Johan. I said there were! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 10, 2014, 04:24:37 AM
I just looked on Amazon. He's a singer that's new to me. I see he was in the recording of Dyson's Quo Vadis which I wouldn't mind hearing one day (it's on the list!).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 10, 2014, 06:11:44 AM
I didn't want it to be Mark Stone or someone like that bloke in the Chandos Hubert Parry choral works (Lotus Eaters,etc). I can't remember which choral work it was,but his vibrato ruined the work for me and I normally love the music of Hubert Parry. The wrong singer and they might as well not have recorded it,as far as I'm concerned. Although,it depends,of course. A heavy,gargling vibrato is high on my list of pet hates when it comes to singers. And more annoying when it's a rare,previously unrecorded work like that Parry and there's no alternative! He sounds like a refugee from the Ohio Light Opera! Off it went to the old charity shop! And such glorious music! :(
Testament might be persuaded to release the Brian Rayner Cook if there is enough interest in their release of The Tigers. Ralph Holmes in the Violin Concerto would make a fantastic coupling.
After that,the Pope third and the Mackerras Second (for starters!).These recordings are old,but they are classic performances which would enhance the appreciation of his music............unless you really would prefer being waterboarded,of course! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 10, 2014, 06:15:35 AM
I just imagined Sir Peter Pears in Wine of Summer... I have to lie down.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 10, 2014, 06:45:17 AM
I hate to say it,Johan;but I actually quite like his singing;but only when he is singing Britten or English folk songs,for example. A certain kind of English music. Anything else and I can't listen.....he's hopeless.....and no,not the 'Wine of Summer'. I can just imagine it,though. They would have to rename it, 'The Gargle of Summer!' ;D I seem to remember Dudley Moore did a rather funny impersonation of him once. Jon Culshaw,where are you?!

Or Elisabeth Schwarzkopf in Das Siegeslied? She'd be good!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 10, 2014, 08:21:38 AM
Bit late to give her a call!

Anna Moffo would have been nice. With a big photo of her on the front,of course!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 10, 2014, 08:26:47 AM
Anybody who heard Roddy Williams in Vaughan Williams' Sea Symphony at 2013's Proms will know what to expect - glorious voice. Think a young John Shirley-Quirk.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 10, 2014, 08:28:48 AM
Dudley Moore is priceless as Peter Pears. I know it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YqgiOj54Ko (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YqgiOj54Ko)

By the way, I have come to appreciate Britten more (Moore?), thanks to the excellent BBC documentary.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 10, 2014, 08:42:42 AM
There's more here on the Testament release:

http://www.testament.co.uk/default.aspx (http://www.testament.co.uk/default.aspx)

I can see what they mean about Monty Python. Although,I think Dads Army and the Goons are closer,albeit like Monty Python,minus the traditional punch lines. Maybe,a bit of Gilbert and Sullivan and the British film comedian Will Hay. I think Dads Army comes closest though,but more surreal (and nightmarish)! A bit ahead of it's time in terms of the humour.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 10, 2014, 08:53:31 AM
I think the characterisation is quite fair. Still, Brian has a weirdness all his own. The Tigers is a 'trip'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 10, 2014, 09:11:07 AM
Thank you for that link. I've got to have a look at that! Allot (or most?) of their tv output was wiped,wasn't it. Those Pete and Dud Lps were very popular when I was in the sixth form at school. Of course they were very rude,albeit not by todays standards,which is why they were so popular What were they called now? I'm going to have to look them up!
As to Britten. I must confess I was listening to the emi recordings of excerpts from The Rape of Lucretia and Peter Grimes made in the 1940's and the 1970 recording of The Rape of Lucretia last night. I haven't listened to them since I bought them,but I was enjoying them. I like some of those old singers he used. I don't think I'd be interested in buying newer recordings. I have all the Britten recordings of the operas except Billy Budd (the price put me off!) I find it interesting that the Britten thread is so short,yet the Brian thread goes on for hundreds of pages! ??? :o ;D

Regarding The Tigers. Other comparisons spring to mind. The Crazy Gang,and over in the US the surreal (c1940) comedy film Hellzapoppin which anticipates later films like the Naked Gun series and the very funny (imo) It's in the Bag with Fred Allen. The movies of WC Fields are also full of all these eccentric,goonish small town characters. I think a surreal version of Dads Army comes closest though! Maybe a bit of Will Hay in Ask a Policeman too,but more subtle. I used to like his films when I was a youngster. They don't put them on much now. But Dads Army,yes. Very clever and all the class snobbery.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 11, 2014, 01:50:54 PM
I see two members of the AMF are getting their copies of The Tigers. One in the bag,the other in the post. It's going to be hard waiting until the New Year,but sometimes you've just got to grit your teeth! :( ;D It's going to be a great New Year gift to ourselves,though! And opening that package........... :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on December 15, 2014, 07:39:19 AM
I got my copy of The Tigers today.  I am in awe at how the recording has come up.  The difference between the existing off-air recording that has been circulating and what has been achieved by going back to the BBC masters makes this an absolute delight to listen to.  So much detail I'd never heard before.  I'm just going to play it every day this week to soak in such wonderful music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2014, 12:59:35 AM
Sounds exciting, Augustus. Good to know.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 16, 2014, 03:12:20 AM
The new Brian Dutton cd is listed on their website now! (For those who don't know!) Just click on 'Music categories' then 'Epoch Modern Classic',then go to Page 11 and scroll down. Hybrid SACD I see!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2014, 03:22:47 AM
Thanks, cilgwyn!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 17, 2014, 05:36:21 AM
Johan,Do you know if the Dutton recording of Festal Dance includes the delightfully wacky piano part? That is one of the reasons I always prefer the Hull Youth SO performance (and the fact that it just feels more fun than the Marco Polo!).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 17, 2014, 06:25:53 AM
"It  remained only to tackle Festal Dance. Although we had originally planned to record this in the version with the ad lib piano,  Martyn  Brabbins, after studying the score,  had expressed a firm preference for recording it without the piano and  so  this  was  agreed.  The  performance  was  achieved  in just eleven takes, and is a lot more vital than either of the existing recordings. This early piece should impress as never before,  given  such  playing."


John Grimshaw, Chairman of the HBS, in Newsletter 234...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 17, 2014, 07:05:35 AM
Well,he should know! :( I'm sure it will be a fine performance,but it was the ad lib piano that sort of made it for me. Also,the fact that the Marco Polo performance didn't include the piano was my main reason for hoping a new recording would emerge that would include it! I await the results with interest,but I think it added to the fun!
If not,this one will join the LSSO peformance of No 10,the Hull Youth performance of 'In Memoriam' and the Pope No 3,as the ones I prefer to play! Not that I won't play it,of course! Just not quite as often!!  I also believe the Ralph Holmes performance is still the finest. Having said that the Lorraine McAslan's performance is very fine and unlike the Dutton recording of No 10 I don't have any issues with it. Indeed,I think it is a superb interpretation that stands up to the Holmes very well. I am very happy with it! :) Incidentally,I haven't heard anyone else say this;but her name always grabs my imagination. McAslan! For some strange reason it makes me think of the Lion in the Narnia books of CS Lewis! I think his name was Aslan? A bit strange for my mind to make that connection,but it does! :o ;D

Ungrateful moaning aside,this is still going to be an exciting release for Brianites! I do feel like grumbling about it is like moaning about the jet black artwork for Hyperion's release of AC DC's Back in Black......I mean the Gothic,of course!! Although Back in Black seems somewhat apt! ;D
'Festal Dance' aside,I think the biggest issue with this release will be the choice of soloist for the 'Wine of Summer'! This will absolutely make it or break it for me!


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 17, 2014, 10:33:40 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 17, 2014, 06:25:53 AM
"It  remained only to tackle Festal Dance. Although we had originally planned to record this in the version with the ad lib piano,  Martyn  Brabbins, after studying the score,  had expressed a firm preference for recording it without the piano and  so  this  was  agreed.  The  performance  was  achieved  in just eleven takes, and is a lot more vital than either of the existing recordings. This early piece should impress as never before,  given  such  playing."


John Grimshaw, Chairman of the HBS, in Newsletter 234...

Just 11 takes? For a piece running for 5 or 6 minutes? OK,they were probably sight reading but even so.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 18, 2014, 01:53:59 PM
The new Dutton CD has disappeared from their website, as far as I can see (or I am a Dutchman). Strange.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 19, 2014, 03:13:13 AM
Apparently there is a full page ad for the new Dutton cds in BBC Music Magazine. You can drool over the artwork! ;D I don't buy it,so maybe I can leaf through it in the cramped spaces of WH Smiths (since they moved the Post Office there)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 19, 2014, 03:39:02 AM
I put a slew of Brian cds on the cd changer last night. Beginning with Vols 1 & 2 of the Toccata Classics Orchestral music series. I remember someone describing the sound quality of Vol 1 as 'dry'! After listening to a slew of cds from emi,Decca and Chandos,amongst others,I was taken a-back at the flat,one dimensional quality of the recording. The difference between it and Vol 2 which followed really was startling to my ears. It just seemed to open out! No wonder I had problems with Vol 1. Maybe it was largely the sound quality not the music. I particularly enjoyed 'Elegy',but the 'Burlesque Variations' really seemed to 'click' with me for the first time. The sheer intricacy of the music and the way it evolves. It is very cunningly constructed. I think it takes a while to get your had around it. In this way it brings to mind the elliptical nature of of the later symphonies. It seems a difficult nut to crack at first,but once you get inside the taste is very good! ;D That said,I really do wish Dutton (or someone else) would give it the recording quality it deserves!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 19, 2014, 06:42:03 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 19, 2014, 03:13:13 AM
Apparently there is a full page ad for the new Dutton cds in BBC Music Magazine. You can drool over the artwork! ;D I don't buy it,so maybe I can leaf through it in the cramped spaces of WH Smiths (since they moved the Post Office there)!
There is a full page Dutton advert in BBC Music Magazine but of the 6 new issues they concentrate on 3 of them.The Brian isn't one of them - just a pic of the sleeve and the contents. Nothing else.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on December 19, 2014, 07:56:39 AM
The Wine of Summer disc is now back up for pre-order on the Dutton site with the five other January releases.  I expect we'll all fall on it like hungry Tigers ....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 19, 2014, 08:12:49 AM
A bottle of wine included in the front cover artwork for the cd! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 19, 2014, 08:32:58 AM
There! I've placed my pre-order for the Dutton cd. I said I wouldn't,but I feel I need to support Dutton because of the dearth of interesting off the beaten track cd releases these days and Dutton still come up with some treasure! I'm not so interested in the other releases I'm afraid and I can't spend too much after that blitz I told you about here. The Testament Tigers will have to wait until the New Year! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 19, 2014, 08:36:01 AM
There I've got the email from Dutton confirming my order. I just hope the baliffs like Havergal Brian as much as I do! ??? :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 20, 2014, 12:52:50 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 19, 2014, 08:36:01 AM
There I've got the email from Dutton confirming my order. I just hope the baliffs like Havergal Brian as much as I do! ??? :( ;D
Let's hope the baliffs can spell better than you old mate. You aren't English are you? :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 20, 2014, 12:53:27 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on December 20, 2014, 12:52:50 AM
Let's hope the baliffs can spell better than you old mate. You aren't English are you? :D
Or Dutch for that matter....................
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 20, 2014, 03:44:14 AM
One of the most annoying things about the internet and the advent of spellcheck is finding out that those people who looked at my short story effort in the pub were right about my spelling! :( Indeed,the burly men who will come to my door will be bailiffs not bailiffs!
Time to rip up that First in English,I suppose! :( :(

On a brighter (geddit?!) note;After my recent Brian cd session (see above) I thoroughly enjoyed the Dutton recording of No 10. Taken on it's own terms there's very little to grumble about really. But there's no doubt that the classic LSSO still rules!  This time around the stand out cd,in some ways,had to be the Toccata recording of 'Music from the operas'. Brian's sonorous use of brass in the 'Turandot' selections and the harp in the 'Night Ride of Faust and Mephistopheles' from 'Faust'. Isn't there anyone at the BBC or 'in the know' (as it were) who can get these operas recorded? And 'The Cenci',of course!

I'll use ye olde cd changer to listen to the Testament 'Gothic' and 'Forlane' sets later. Let the machine do the hard graft of loading the cds in order! I'll listen to the Fould's Pasquinade Symphonique No 1 that John raved about & the Hager performances of Parry,which still sound very good,to my ears,today! My trusty old cd player downstairs has started getting a bit dodgy. I had to play music cassettes yesterday. Remember them?! Luckily I'd still kept a few. Not having many left it was Handel's Messiah (Pinnock/Archiv),Solomon (Gardiner/Philips) and there are two complete Rossini operas,German's 'Merrie England',a Mozart Mass..........Fleetwood Mac....Santana 'Moonflower'!!...................then nostalgia took over and I realised I could get around my self imposed ban on cd buying by purchasing s/h cassettes. The result? Albany & Chandos cassettes of George Lloyd's Seventh and Harty's Irish symphony are currently in the post! Thank goodness I'm not into Wagner's Ring Cycle!!
I'll stop now. I have a feeling John is going to be checking out my grammar!! ??? :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 20, 2014, 03:47:54 AM
If they cut the power I've got two HMV wind up gramophones and a couple of 78's to play on them! :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 20, 2014, 04:34:36 AM
Come to think of it,they'll probably take them first! :(

CD Changer currently on CD2,track 7 'Concerto for Orchestra'. I seem to recall that,along with 'Agamemnon' and the 'Jolly Miller ov',this was one of the worst,if not THE worst of all the off air tapes I heard (in terms of sound quality) before the advent of the popular internet and forums like this? This is a concise,terse piece in Brian's best late style. Johan was right about this one. Symphony No 30 follows on very nicely. As has been observed before;the contents of the Dutton cds are very well chosen.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 20, 2014, 05:49:32 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 20, 2014, 03:44:14 AM
One of the most annoying things about the internet and the advent of spellcheck is finding out that those people who looked at my short story effort in the pub were right about my spelling! :( Indeed,the burly men who will come to my door will be bailiffs not bailiffs!
Time to rip up that First in English,I suppose! :( :(

On a brighter (geddit?!) note;After my recent Brian cd session (see above) I thoroughly enjoyed the Dutton recording of No 10. Taken on it's own terms there's very little to grumble about really. But there's no doubt that the classic LSSO still rules!  This time around the stand out cd,in some ways,had to be the Toccata recording of 'Music from the operas'. Brian's sonorous use of brass in the 'Turandot' selections and the harp in the 'Night Ride of Faust and Mephistopheles' from 'Faust'. Isn't there anyone at the BBC or 'in the know' (as it were) who can get these operas recorded? And 'The Cenci',of course!

I'll use ye olde cd changer to listen to the Testament 'Gothic' and 'Forlane' sets later. Let the machine do the hard graft of loading the cds in order! I'll listen to the Fould's Pasquinade Symphonique No 1 that John raved about & the Hager performances of Parry,which still sound very good,to my ears,today! My trusty old cd player downstairs has started getting a bit dodgy. I had to play music cassettes yesterday. Remember them?! Luckily I'd still kept a few. Not having many left it was Handel's Messiah (Pinnock/Archiv),Solomon (Gardiner/Philips) and there are two complete Rossini operas,German's 'Merrie England',a Mozart Mass..........Fleetwood Mac....Santana 'Moonflower'!!...................then nostalgia took over and I realised I could get around my self imposed ban on cd buying by purchasing s/h cassettes. The result? Albany & Chandos cassettes of George Lloyd's Seventh and Harty's Irish symphony are currently in the post! Thank goodness I'm not into Wagner's Ring Cycle!!
I'll stop now. I have a feeling John is going to be checking out my grammar!! ??? :(
Do you mean Grandma? I love that little gem by Foulds. Very enjoyable.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2014, 07:02:47 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 20, 2014, 04:34:36 AMCD Changer currently on CD2,track 7 'Concerto for Orchestra'. I seem to recall that,along with 'Agamemnon' and the 'Jolly Miller ov',this was one of the worst,if not THE worst of all the off air tapes I heard (in terms of sound quality) before the advent of the popular internet and forums like this? This is a concise,terse piece in Brian's best late style. Johan was right about this one. Symphony No 30 follows on very nicely. As has been observed before;the contents of the Dutton cds are very well chosen.


Those things happen... Symphony No. 20 and the Concerto for Orchestra inhabit the same space. They start off grimly and end festively, and a lot of moving lyricism is encountered along the way. All in all, I think the CfO is marginally the better piece.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 20, 2014, 09:08:33 AM
I'll bear that in mind,Johan! Listening to all these commercially recorded cds in succession does make you realise how important really first rate recordings are to really getting to grips with a composer like Brian. The only ones I'm missing out are the Marco Polo/Naxos ones;although the recent release of No's 22-24 is in a different class altogether. I'll put it on soon. At the moment I've got the Forlane set,the Testament Gothic and the first cd of the emi set (No's 7 etc) loaded up,in that order!
Actually,I do think the Marco Polo recording of Das Siegeslied is pretty good. I would even go so far as to say that imho it was their best effort until the Alexander Walker cd came out. (I'm talking about the performance itself I should point out!)
I'm going to have to go through the threads again. I'm sure you said there was another Naxos Brian release waiting in the wings?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 20, 2014, 02:08:32 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 03, 2014, 01:56:49 AM
From the latest HBS Newsletter, which arrived in my Inbox a few minutes ago:

Following  the  enthusiastic  critical
response  to  the  recent  Naxos  disc  of  Symphonies  22-24
and  English  Suite  no.  1  performed  by  Alexander  Walker
and the New Russia State Symphony Orchestra, we have
agreed  to  fund  a  follow-up  disc  which  plugs  a  couple  of
other  gaps  in  the  availability  of  Brian's  symphonies  on
CD.  Again  with  the  New  Russia  State  Symphony
Orchestra,  Alexander  Walker  will  be  conducting
symphonies  6,  28,  29  and  31;  a  balance  between  first
recordings  (28  and  29)  and  new  versions  of  symphonies
first laid down in the 1970s (no. 6) and 80s (no. 31). The
recording sessions will take place in Moscow in late May
2014. If the rapidity of the first disc's issue is  anything to
go by, we would expect this one to be issued in early 2015.

Then,  only  two  months  later  on  July  25th  and  27th,  our
President  Martyn  Brabbins  and  the  Royal  Scottish
National  Orchestra  will  return  to  the  studio  again  for  a
third  Brian  disc  for  Dutton  Records.  The  day  between
sessions is because on the 26th, Martyn is conducting at a
special Commonwealth Games concert featuring both the
RSNO and the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra! Details
of  the  disc's  programme  will  be  published  in  the  next
Newsletter  but  we  can  already  say  that  this  CD  will plug
some  other  notable  gaps  in  the  Brian
discography. Dutton's practice is not to let recordings  sit
around for very long at all, so we would expect this disc to
be available before Christmas this year.

That's it! My memory!! :o ;D The Dutton's pre-ordered,of course! A new year release,it seems! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 23, 2014, 04:46:19 AM
Season's greetings to all thread subscribers! Have a happy and Brianic 2015.

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2014, 05:19:57 AM
The same, of course, to you, Martyn!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 23, 2014, 05:21:06 AM
Thank you & Season's greetings to you hbwebmaster,from the Brianic Man! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2014, 05:23:24 AM
Brianic Man could be the notorious 'missing link'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 23, 2014, 05:30:45 AM
Sorry,I couldn't resist that one. I was just reading a review of a book about the creator of Wonder Woman! I recall sitting in front of the 70's series as a teenager,all those years ago! Saturday's teatime on BBC1,watching her spinning round and throwing plastic car engines at hapless villains! The shame of it! :-[ ;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 23, 2014, 05:34:23 AM
I expect you were watching something more cerebral than that! I did watch 'Blue Peter',though! ;D

Hang on,I preferred 'Magpie'! :o :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 23, 2014, 05:43:01 AM
Pippi Longstocking (among other programmes)... Back to HB!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 23, 2014, 07:05:41 AM
Ah yes,I remember those. I think my late Mum read some!
On the subject of Brian. One of the great things about listening to the Dutton cds is the great care taken in choosing what's on them. I still haven't bought the Lyrita cd because of the coupling. Although I have the Fredman recordings of the Brian symphonies.
Another two points. I usually avoid live recordings like the blazes,unless it's something I can't obtain as a studio recording. I feel the whole point of a studio recording is to avoid all the irritating and unecessary distractions of a live performance. I don't even want brief applause. Just the music,that's all! Nevertheless,there are notable exceptions. The Gothic is one of them. Somehow,a performance of the Gothic is such a momentous occasion,both in terms of the rarity and scale of performances,that the extraneous noises and additional atmosphere adds to the sense of something awesome and momentous happening. Even the choirboy fainting in the Ole Schmidt performance. Presumably from the heat of all those bodies? Or the magnificence of the music?! ;D
Another one is speech added to a record in the form of interviews or 'talks'. It all depends,really! But Brian being interviewed at the end of the Testament Boult,after an appropriate pause,is a wonderful and inspiring bonus. His modesty and down to earth personality. His answer to the interviewers  'deep' question about the meaning of life really sums up the man. And after such a long piece of music,even if you put it on repeat, you don't really have to worry about hearing it again for,what is it ? (I can't find the cd!) two hours,or so;by which time you'll probably enjoy the brief interview all over again!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on December 24, 2014, 01:04:51 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 23, 2014, 05:34:23 AM
I expect you were watching something more cerebral than that! I did watch 'Blue Peter',though! ;D

Hang on,I preferred 'Magpie'! :o :(
Me too. Susan Stranks. Say no more. She was married to Robin Ray.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 24, 2014, 01:55:02 AM
So that's why I liked the show! And of course there was Jenny Hanley!! ;D I also remember moaning to my Mum because Blue Peter had been taken off because of some boring Moon landing! I collected all the PG tips cards (space race series) later,though!! ;D

Ahem! Back to Brian! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on January 05, 2015, 12:46:42 PM
It seems to be a given with this thread that as soon as anyone posts "Anyway, back to Brian" after a deviation off-topic the thing goes deathly quiet for a long time!

So, two things to start the New Year.  Firstly. anyone else out there got the Testament Tigers?   I can hardly stop playing it.  Does anyone know of an unstaged British opera with better music?  Brian's invention in this score is surely as fine as anything he wrote, there are no dull passages to my ears.

Secondly, does anyone know approximately when in January Dutton might start mailing out the new Brian disc?

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 05, 2015, 01:00:24 PM
Happy New Year, Augustus... Re the 'thread death' problem - so much has already been said in these pages, also by me, that it's sometimes a bit of a chore to ring another variation on something you already said one or more years ago. But that's not your fault...

I share your amazement at the Tigers. I heard this recording already during the second half of the 'eighties, and was bowled over by the colour, invention and imagination of this score. The libretto is more problematic. The characters are not realistic, more figures you could encounter in a dream. As such, no other work of Brian's gets you into his peculiar mind as well as The Tigers. At the end of the opera not much is achieved; there is no development, the work is more a set of tableaux that reveals a world you can meditate on. Answers there are none.

As for the exact release date of the Dutton CD, I'll have to check the HBS Newsletter again.

P.S. Checked. It just says 'in January', no specific date.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 05, 2015, 01:36:33 PM
Have ordered the new Brian CD on Dutton - really looking forward to hearing it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 05, 2015, 02:16:35 PM
Maybe best to treat it as some kind of 'dream' opera,that defies logic;like Julietta,but The Tigers is thankfully more upbeat. (And I really must add Julietta to my collection. I used to have the Lp set!). I rather like Boughton and I suspect his unperformed operas (or music dramas) probably have some music I would rather enjoy hearing and may be well worth rescuing. That said,I would be amazed if there is an unperformed British opera that is as quirky,eccentric,offbeat,funny and original as The Tigers. I think the critics would tear it to shreds,but who cares what they think. Maybe it's one of those operas that is always going to be more successful as a 'gramophone' opera? Like Humperdinck's lovely 'Konigskinder',Weinberger's 'Schwanda',VW's 'Sir John in Love','Hugh the Drover' or Delius's Koanga;to name but a few operas which some people enjoy very much,or even rate very highly. However,they don't don't seem to impress the critics!. And allot of people enjoyed the recordings of Sullivan's Ivanhoe and The Beauty Stone,recently. They obviously have their merits;but they are never going to get the high regard that Sullivan would have liked them to have. Great on cd,though. Although I must admit I haven't heard the former (I had Ivanhoe in school!!) and I taped The Beauty Stone off Radio 3 (which reminds me,I must listen to it now! ;D)
I see Ethel Smyth's The Boatswain's Mate is going to be recorded. I think I would rather hear that than The Wrecker's! If only Brian's other operas could get funding for a recording?! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 06, 2015, 02:41:21 AM
VW's Riders to the Sea would have been a better example than Hugh the Drover. VW's failed attempt at an English counterpart to The Bartered Bride. Once ubiquitous with amateur operatic and school productions,you don't hear too much of that one these days!  Riders to the Sea has the tightness that Hugh the Drover lacks. However,I'm not too keen on operas with gloomy plots,so Hugh got in and Riders got left out! Konigskinder got in,despite a gloomy ending,because I had the Emi Electrola set as a teenager. Some people think it's superior to Hansel and Gretel,but it's the latter that stayed in the repertoire. Some people say Konigskinder has been neglected because it includes geese?! Well,if the geese in Konigskinder are a problem,what about an opera that has a walk on part for an elephant?!! Still,at least there's only one!! As with Konigskinder vs Hansel and Gretel,I have a hunch,listening to Brian's later scores and the excerpts from the operas on the Toccata cd,that his later operas are actually,in certain respects,superior to the better known example. For one thing,they are presumably going to be more tautly constructed. The Tigers is simply jam packed with far too many great ideas for it's own good!! Maybe in retrospect the Beeb should have recorded a studio production of Faust or Turandot first!

Another neglected opera that does seem to get good reviews when it is performed is Ariane et Barbe Bleue by Dukas. I wouldn't mind the Botstein set,but it's pricey and the postman just dumped my last orders in the bin! :( And I haven't heard Ariadne,anyway! :( Perhaps R3 could do me a favour and broadcast it,so I can tape it?! And what about Martinu's The Greek Passion?! Now that's something! I remember being bowled over by the Supraphon recording of that opera as a teenager. Still a rarity. I can't really see anything wrong with it. I think it's a marvelous opera.

All those booths,stalls and merry choruses at the beginning of Hugh the Drover do bring to mind the Prologue to The Tiger's. It's almost like a happy,sunlit version without the dark,nightmare undercurrent just waiting to break out. Although,unlike Martinu's Julietta The Tigers never is (are) nasty!

Hopefully I will have my copy towards the end of January (early February)! :( ;D


I won't say back to Brian!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 06, 2015, 02:41:47 AM
Now I have! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 14, 2015, 01:18:56 PM
A quite enthusiastic review of the recent Testament release of 'The Tigers'! As someone comments (scroll down below the review); Andrew Clements actually giving Brian's music a favourable review?!! The slippery slope......... :o ;D

Hope the link works!

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jan/14/havergal-brian-the-tigers-review-bbcso-lionel-friend
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 14, 2015, 01:46:59 PM
The link worked just fine, cilgwyn. As for the review, it is relatively positive, I agree. Clements at least sees there is some merit to the work and doesn't dismiss it out of hand. Slippery slope? Thin end of the wedge? Let's hope so! But I don't think he'll ever convert to Brianity.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 15, 2015, 03:00:17 AM
I was thinking I should use the word positive instead of enthusiastic;then I thought,it is enthusiastic for a review of Brian by Clements! I like the use of "Ives-like" to describe some of the music in the Prologue. Remember this is the same man who reviewed Vol 2 of the Toccata series,complaining that the 'Symphonic Variations' didn't give the vocalists much to do.

Looking at his review again:

I quote! "Non vocal music". "What is any director of The Tigers supposed to put on stage during the Symphonic Variations?";and the bit about Turandot having 40 minutes "when not a note is sung" is an absolute howler. I suppose there is a possibility that the cd was supplied without the booklet;but it does underline the importance of knowing what you are talking about before sounding off about something you don't much or even s** all about! Now he's talking about "Ives-like collisions and layerings" and"multiple roles!" I hope he read your response to the Toccata review. Food for thought!

And no,I don't think it's going to change his view that much,let alone the prospect of him joining us here! ;D (even if we want him to! ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 15, 2015, 03:10:39 AM
I had forgotten about my comment. Good of me. ;-) Clements is making progress. He will never be a fan, but is he more even-handed. Which is commendable.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on January 15, 2015, 03:19:23 AM
I would certainly be interested if there is a recording of Turandot!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 15, 2015, 03:32:16 AM
Q: "What is any director of The Tigers supposed to put on stage during the Symphonic Variations!"
A: An Elephant! ;D

Well,he did ask!

Seriously,imagine the same response to orchestral excerpts from an opera by Richard Strauss?! Of course more is known about these works. If he didn't have the booklet to hand I might let him off. AS far as I know 'Turandot' has never been performed or recorded in it's entirety? 
Now I've looked at the HB website. No performances listed. I see The Cenci received a concert performance in 1997. Were you there by any chance Johan? I don't recall you mentioning it. Or have you been able to hear any of this performance? Sometimes there is a private recording of some kind. I haven't heard of one,though!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 15, 2015, 03:39:36 AM
I was there, at the world première of The Cenci, in the Queen Elizabeth Hall. 12 December 1997. I was in an excellent mood, having just finished the first big chunk of the novel of which I am about to finish the first half... Yes, it has taken me many years. It has been worth it. As for The Cenci, vocally it doesn't make for easy listening. It's a cross between Wagnerian and Schoenbergian Sprechgesang. Members of the HBS have access (online nowadays) to a recording which was made of that event.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 15, 2015, 03:57:07 AM
So,don't expect anything as easy to listen to and tuneful as The Tigers? So it'll be a bit like listening to Rutland Boughton's 'The Queen of Cornwall' and expecting another Immortal Hour?' (Jimfin (I think?) over at the AMF did warn me! I still haven't cracked it!!) I suppose it's going to be a bit like listening to one of the late symphonies,but with the emphasis on the text. No closing your eyes and enjoying pictures in the mind. I'll need to follow the libretto.
In terms of the musical style. To which of the later symphonies does the music most approximate? Not those harder edged,tough ones from about No 18 onwards,I hope? ??? ;D That could be tough!!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 15, 2015, 04:05:47 AM
The Cenci was written between the Ninth and the Tenth, and has things in common with the former. I must admit that of all the late operas which I have heard so far - Cenci, Agamemnon, Prologue to Faust -, it is that Prologue which has vocal beauty and orchestral power in a perfect mix. Hopefully Turandot will be the same.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 15, 2015, 04:29:33 AM
Now I remember. No 18 is much later,of course! I get the feeling that Faust and Turandot will be more my 'cup of tea'. Not that I won't be interested to hear The Cenci,of course! But I've got to be prepared to sit down with the libretto. I suppose Riders to the Sea is a sort of equivalent in the VW canon. And,talking about Martinu's Julietta,which I mentioned earlier. I remember buying the Supraphon set after The Greek Passion. It was the first work by Martinu which stumped me. You needed the libretto. Unlike any other Martinu I had heard it wasn't a work you could just sit back and close your eyes to. The Greek Passion isn't exactly a laugh-a-minute;but it's immediately accessible. I've still got the tape set. Over twenty five years old now. I'll stick it on later and see if the cassettes still work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 15, 2015, 05:22:10 AM
I actually rather like it when a composer throws out some tough nuts to chew on! VW with Symphonies 4 & 6 and the enigma of,"why aren't Holst's other works like The Planets?! I'm rather glad they aren't! AS to Boughton! The fact that the last time I tried the Dutton cd set of The Queen of Cornwall ended in frustration only makes me more intrigued about his Arthurian cycle. Boughton is supposed to be all fey,nonny-no! If the bleak,sparing,astringency of TQOC is anything to go by,these later operas may yet hold some surprises.
Indeed,VW's Fourth and Sixth symphonies have only recently clicked with me. They are up there with my favourites now. I think the fact that I had to spend so much time getting into their sound world only enhanced my appreciation. The Piano Concerto is another example.
I know some people who wish that Brian had composed more symphonies in the same vein or style as the Gothic. They are disappointed that he didn't continue in the same no holds barred late romantic vein',presumably with yet another colossal epic? (I seem to recall reading that he did contemplate doing so at one point?) I never felt quite that way. But I do remember having problems with allot of the later ones. Johan will remember the night these works literally opened up for me for the first time to reveal the treasures inside.
The problem I may encounter with some of Brian's later operas is probably going to be the libretto itself. As I keep telling my father. I don't like films with unhappy endings! I like something that cheers me up! And no,I don't mean Don Gillis.....although,he's fun in small doses! ??? ;D

Another example. Fibich's The Bride of Messina after the wonderful,lyrical,dramatic Sarka!
And then there are composers who just seem to have altered their style in attempt to keep up with the times. These kind of works feel 'forced'. They usually lack the spontaneity of a composer who is genuinely experimenting and doing something different because he really wants to. Fortunately,Brian doesn't fit into this category. His late style being merely a natural progression. You only have to listen to parts of the Gothic;particularly the choral sections. It was there already.
Of the former category,Piston springs to mind. Although,having said that,anything by Piston is interesting. I just feel his earlier work was more rewarding.

Maybe Don Gillis should have tried being a bit more gloomy?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 15, 2015, 01:15:55 PM
After The Tigers I think the next project for Brian opera enthusiasts ought to be to agitate for a modern recording of Agamemnon. This would easily fit on to one CD, it is a fine, fast-paced piece, and no-one can quibble with the choice of work to set (though the actual translation used is a bit creaky).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on January 21, 2015, 01:26:13 AM
I'm listening to the new Dutton disc. First impression is that the sound has that recessed feeling typical of Dutton, but, the performances are wonderful. Roderick Williams has a most wonderful voice in the fifth which has never been my favourite work but can now be re-assessed more positively; I shall listen to it many times over the next few weeks. Symphonies 19 and 27 feel like new works after the off-air recordings I'm used to and I look forward to getting to grips with them. The Festal Dance is taken at a fair lick which IMO is a good thing. So all in all (I am cliche ridden) another great addition to the HB repertoire. Many thanks to Martyn Brabbins, the Royal Scottish National Orchestra and Dutton.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 21, 2015, 02:55:09 AM
Thanks for that first review! I blush to admit I still have to order. Will do so later today. This is going to be a good year for Havergal Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 21, 2015, 05:01:49 AM
I also (sorry Johan! ;D) have received the new Dutton recording. I actually think the recording quality is very good;although listening on cordless headphones (good Sennheiser ones) would make a difference. After that lush,'boomy' Chandos cd of Malcolm Arnold symphonies the ear takes a few minutes to adjust.
Anyway,onto the all important matter of the music itself. Despite the misgivings expressed in an earlier post about the piano obbligato;I really enjoyed this performance. It certainly is allot more fun than that dreary Marco Polo performance. Yes,I suppose I still wish they'd included it,but quite frankly,it's absence didn't bother me this time around.
On to the 'Wine of Summer'. A way overdue recording,but well worth the wait it seems. After the introductory orchestral bars I waited with the proverbial baited breath to hear what the singing would be like. Again,no problem here;I think Roderick Williams is absolutely excellent. In fact,he even manages to sound a little like Brian Rayner Cook at times. This is a first class interpretation. He really seems to get under the skin of the work. In fact,I would even go so far as to suggest that in some ways his performance is even finer than that of Cooke and it is so wonderful to be able to hear all the wondrous orchestration of this work with such clarity of sound and detail. I really was impressed by this performance. If only Roderick Williams could now be persuaded to record an album of Havergal Brian's songs! Surely,this is the man for the job!!
And then onto symphonies 19 & 27. Again,I think these are wonderful recordings. I don't find them recessed at all;but again I am listening on headphones! I think these are excellent performances. I am a fairly recent convert to Brian's later symphonies and now find them amongst,if not,THE most fascinating of the canon. These performances really seem to penetrate Brian's sound world. I love the minutiae of detail that is conveyed by these performances. They really draw you into this music. Very absorbing. I think there will be some converts to Brian's later muse.....although,maybe not Andrew Clements or that occasional poster ;D?!! Oh,and the solo work is superb.
The notes by John Pickard are excellent. I like the photo with Havergal Brian's grandson,Mike Pringle. It's in the eyes and the smile!! ;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on January 21, 2015, 05:26:22 AM
Just ordered the Dutton CD. Can't resist!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on January 21, 2015, 05:28:10 AM
Quote from: springrite on January 21, 2015, 05:26:22 AM
Just ordered the Dutton CD. Can't resist!

TWU!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 21, 2015, 05:43:19 AM
Now look what I've done! At least I won't have to feel as guilty as when I enthused over the Cpo recording of Humperdinck's Donroschen and someone at another forum rushed off to buy it!! Ouch!! A rush of blood to the head I think!! :-[ ;D
I was just going to add that I think the Rayner Cook does have more of an atmosphere of menace/oppressiveness;but I still think this and the other music on the Dutton cd are amongst the best performances of Brian I have heard on Lp or cd.

Well,I like it anyway!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 21, 2015, 07:04:58 AM
Still enjoying the cd! First time I've really enjoyed No's 19 & 27 too,as opposed to merely finding them very intriguing. It might be my hearing ;D but Roderick Williams does sound a little bit like Rayner Cook at times. (Must get them syringed! ??? ;D) An album of the best of HB's songs next please. This is a fantastic cd imho (as the say! ;D). Love the care taken over the music chosen. The Festal Dance makes a fun opener for the serious stuff that follows!
The 'fierce red kings' bit now that used to remind me,strangely enough,of that bizarre march like interruption in Shostakovich's Fifth. Yes,I'm very happy with this performance indeed! Quite excited really! I've known this symphony for thirty odd years and this is great. A heck of allot better too,than that studio performance with Donald Maxwell,I might add! The pay off at the end,very dramatic....exciting! "Far off I hear Night calling to the sea!" Wow! I think the Fifth is going back to being one of my favourite Brian symphonies again! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 21, 2015, 07:13:42 AM
I'd like to endorse the highly positive comments about this, the third all-Brian disc from Dutton. The assurance of the orchestral playing is a revelation in these scores (particularly striking are the wonderful gossamer textures which crop up time after time in Wine of Summer) and Martyn Brabbins proves once again a great interpreter of Brian's quixotic style.

There could be no finer baritone soloist (even remembering Brian Rayner Cook) for the deeply-impressive fifth symphony than Roderick Williams (who has graced so many significant recordings over the past decade) - he is rock-solid on the angular vocal line and captures the drowsy, almost hypnotic atmosphere of the poem to perfection - you can sense a powerfully-concentrated intellect at work, matching those of Douglas and Brian. All told, one of the finest Brian discs ever in terms of repertoire  and performance. Now we can also look forward to Alexander Walker's disc from Naxos (Symphonies 6, 28, 29 and 31)!

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 21, 2015, 07:23:22 AM
I'm going to commit heresy now. I'm not sure if I don't actually prefer this performance of No 5 in some ways. Having said that,this is a new cd and I have to take into account the superior sound quality. I'll need more time!
I agree with you Albion (just saw your post in time!). Rock solid,indeed! Absolutely superb! And I'm always moaning that the current crop of singers aren't as good as the ones they had years ago!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 21, 2015, 07:33:56 AM
A profusely salivating Dutchman is about to order the Dutton CD (through the HBS).


Me.


This is just too much.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 21, 2015, 08:03:56 AM
Sorry Johan! A bit like waving a bacon sandwich in front of a hungry man (or a veggie equivalent if you don't eat meat!)! :( ;D
I can't remember when a new Brian cd has stayed on repeat so long..........oops,I've done it again! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 21, 2015, 08:07:18 AM
Haha! I just ordered. John Grimshaw, the HBS Chairman, will post the CD before 17:50! My suffering won't last that long.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 21, 2015, 09:20:53 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 21, 2015, 07:23:22 AMI'm going to commit heresy now. I'm not sure if I don't actually prefer this performance of No 5 in some ways.

I much prefer Roderick Williams to Brian Rayner Cook - less histrionics and greater care taken of the actual music. Rayner Cook certainly had one of those voices that was instantly recognisable, but I find his mannerisms irritating in a number of recordings (such as Elgar's King Olaf and Parry's Invocation to Music).

???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 21, 2015, 09:54:27 AM
I think I agree with you Albion. Indeed,come to think of it,I do!! :) Not having the Rayner Cook immediately to hand I decided to err on the side of caution. But yes,those mannerisms. Roderick Williams is so good you stop worrying about the flowery text. In fact you don't worry about it at all,you just enjoy the glorious music. This is how it should be sung! In fact,I would even go so far as to say that this is the performance this score has been 'waiting for'! I say this with all due respect to Rayner Cook who did so much to promote this score,but may unwittingly have put some people off.  I think his performances of the songs are much better. That said,I can't help wondering what Roderick Williams would make of them?! Regarding Elgar's King Olaf. I confess I haven't heard this work and will certainly keep your observation in mind if and when I buy a recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 21, 2015, 09:56:11 AM
And yes....did I really say that?!  ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 21, 2015, 10:09:15 AM
If Roderick Williams really has surpassed Brian Rayner Cook this will be the Brian Jinx in reverse... Wine of Summer _was_ recorded by Brian Rayner Cook, but the recording was never issued: it didn't do justice to the singer's abilities, and he apparently vetoed it (I have this on good authority and have always remained silent about it). Which, in retrospect, appears to have been a good and wise thing after all!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 21, 2015, 10:35:22 AM
I honestly agree with Albion! Although I think there may be a little more menace amongst the foliage in the accompaniment to Rayner Cook in the original studio recording,with respect to the singing itself,I definitely prefer Roderick Williams. This is the first time the flowery text hasn't bothered me. Although I didn't worry about it when I was a youngster,it seemed to turn me off the music as I got older and more discerning about the differences between good and bad literature. I think this recording will make Brian's Wine of Summer quite a few new friends.
Indeed,Brian Rayner Cook may well have made the right decision. I think this is really magnificent recording and......I hate to say it......but I'll be rather wishing I was you when you receive your order........ opening that package and putting it in the cd player for the very first time!! Oh,well!! ;D
I'm having a break from it now. I've got Dyson's Violin Concerto on now,which I might add I have been extremely impressed by. I will then return to the new Brian cd refreshed and we'll see what I shall make of it then? I doubt if I'll change my mind though!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 21, 2015, 10:58:47 AM
I love Dyson, Symphony, Violin Concerto, and other, shorter things I have heard. Very appealing music.

If all goes well, I'll be listening to the Dutton on Saturday...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 21, 2015, 11:52:55 AM
OT count me in as a Dyson fan too, especially the Symphony, in Honour of the City of London and Quo Vadis, the end of which is as moving as any work I know.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 21, 2015, 12:15:13 PM
Dyson is a very strong composer indeed, with a personal style that is unmistakable (as with Brian) - Brian was complimentary about Dyson's music even though stylistically they were poles apart.

I believe that, at some point, Dutton are going to record the recently-unearthed early (1910) Choral Symphony setting Psalm 107 which Dyson submitted for his Oxford DMus: this is great news - I've enjoyed everything by Dyson that I've heard.

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 21, 2015, 12:22:11 PM
For all the zaniness of which he certainly is capable, what Brian has in common with Dyson is sanity and objectivity. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on January 21, 2015, 01:15:41 PM
I got mine today from Dutton.  I have to say that this might be the best Brian disc in the modern era, just as the Lyrita 6 & 16 was in the early days.  After a couple of hearings, Roderick Williams is already close to erasing the Brian Rayner Cook recording in my mind.  He has the knack of singing it perfectly without undue mannerisms so that one feels in connection with the work without the filter of interpretation.
The disc overall is quite bright in timbre but the orchestral playing can't be faulted and the orchestration in "Wine of Summer" comes over with far more clarity than with the rather echoey Alexandra Palace acoustic of the Rayner Cook version.
I'd recommend this disc to anyone.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 21, 2015, 01:26:10 PM
Bet you can't wait,Johan?!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 21, 2015, 01:27:52 PM
Don't be cruel.  :'(

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on January 24, 2015, 03:39:01 AM
A rather good little recommendation for weekend listening of the new Testament pressing of The Tigers appears in today's Times by Richard Morrison.

I've typed it out here.

Four out of five stars given.
The Tigers.

Now let's stage it!
Havergal Brian's surreal sprawling comic opera The Tigers -think Dad's Army on a Wagnerian scale- was, unsurprisingly never put on. Satires on army incompetence weren't popular in 1919 and Brian's vocal and orchestral demands were massive. However, this 1987 BBC studio recording, issued on CD for the first time, reveals a stunningly inventive, eclectic score, performed here with gusto by a A-team cast of 1980s ENO regulars under Lionel Friend. Irresistible.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 24, 2015, 03:54:15 AM
Thanks, Steve! A hundred years after the Great War, and only now The Tigers meets with some approval among the non-Brianites.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 25, 2015, 02:51:32 AM
You haven't had your Dutton cd yet,Johan?! :( Or have you just been busy?
Of course,the non-Brianites have an excuse. The score was lost! Which also,sort of,gives The Tigers an excuse,because you can't blame the lack of performances purely on the score not being dramatic enough and all the usual things that get leveled at pre-Britten English opera. It just wasn't available for performance!!
Imagine if it had been Prometheus Unbound that got found,instead of The Tigers? I suppose the former is the work the HB Society may have wanted to locate the most of the two? I wish they would find it of course;but I think,in a way,finding The Tigers does more for Brian in showing a side of the man that tends to get obscured by all the hype about colossal,hard to perform symphonies. His strong sense of humour.


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 25, 2015, 03:27:26 AM
Alas, my dear cilgwyn, if I had received the CD, I certainly would have reported back. But I haven't, so I couldn't... I hope tomorrow will be the Day. As for The Tigers being found and not (yet) Prometheus Unbound, you might have a point about the fortuitousness of it. PU reinforces the Brian stereotypes undoubtedly far more than The Tigers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 25, 2015, 04:16:17 AM
And when you think it's actually even bigger! Oh dear,There goes that eccentric megalomaniac again!!
We still wish someone would find it,though! ;D Not to mention,yet another entry in the Guiness Book of Records!
(It is still in there I presume?!!) I haven't seen a copy for quite a few years.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 25, 2015, 04:28:11 AM
I seem to recall that it does actually get a mention,along the lines of Brian actually having written a larger work that got lost!

Meanwhile,I predict some exciting post for you......hopefully tomorrow! As a true Brianite I think you will be equally excited by the other music on the cd (besides No 5!).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 25, 2015, 04:34:56 AM
I have always considered no. 27 the most beautiful and searing of the very late symphonies. And no. 19 is wonderfully lyrical. I hope Brabbins does them justice, too. Mackerras was excellent in 27 and John Canarina just as good in 19... I'll wait and see (sigh!) And now I'm off again! Cheers!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 28, 2015, 03:09:39 AM
Dutton CD still has to arrive. My patience is sorely tested. Oh well... 0:)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 28, 2015, 03:27:46 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 28, 2015, 03:09:39 AM
Dutton CD still has to arrive. My patience is sorely tested. Oh well... 0:)

My copy was, allegedly, posted 21 Jan. It still isn't here  :(

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 28, 2015, 03:35:17 AM
Same here, fellow-martyr.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 28, 2015, 01:05:13 PM
Mine arrived several days ago. Not played yet as currently obsessed with Clint Mansell's soundtrack to 'Noah'  ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 28, 2015, 02:00:03 PM
You're presumably not a true,die hard Brianite or you would hardly be able to wait to put it on the cd player! Not saying you don't like Brian,you obviously do (?)...........but it "arrived several days ago"?!!!! ??? :o ;D

And Johan's going through hell here!! I hope you won't be putting it off for forty days and forty nights!! ;D At this rate the Naxos cd will be released by the time you play it! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 28, 2015, 02:42:28 PM
While Jeffrey is wallowing in the Flood, ignoring 'Night calling to the Sea' (Wine of Summer), yes, I am suffering greatly in the continued absence of the Dutton CD. Let's hope tomorrow will bring some relief to Sarge in Germany and me in the Netherlands!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 28, 2015, 03:26:52 PM
While Vandermolen is listening to his Noah sound track cd most of us die hard Brianites are loading our Brian cds into our cd playes at the rate of two by two! ;D Although,to be honest for the last two days or so it's been Bessie Smith and Billie Holiday! In fact,it has just struck me that some of the gloomy,bluesy,downbeat tracks on these cds could make the perfect soundtrack for a Brianite who has been kept waiting far too long for his new Dutton cd ie :

I woke up this morning and there was still no sign of the new Brian cd
I woke up this morning and there was still no sign of the new Brian cd
If I don't get my new Brian cd in the next day or two I'll............

I'll stop there before it get's too gloomy!! ??? :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 28, 2015, 03:31:07 PM
Won't wake up this morning, if there's no Brian CD
Won't wake up this morning, if there's no Brian CD
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on January 29, 2015, 12:06:30 AM
 ;) :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 29, 2015, 02:06:41 AM
Yes! The CD has arrived, and very symbolically on Havergal Brian's 129th birthday, too. I'm off!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on January 29, 2015, 02:11:21 AM
NO! You're not! #spotted
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 29, 2015, 03:04:38 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 29, 2015, 02:06:41 AM
Yes! The CD has arrived, and very symbolically on Havergal Brian's 129th birthday, too. I'm off!
It could be worse!
Some of the songs featured on my two Bessie Smith box sets:

I'd rather be dead and buried
Send me to the 'lectric chair
Dyin' by the hour
I'm down in the dumps

They cheer me up! :)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 29, 2015, 03:57:04 AM
Quickly listened to most of the CD: Festal Dance, Wine of Summer and Symphony No. 27. "Houston, we have a winner!" I think it is safe to say that Wine of Summer can take its place alongside Symphony No. 6 as a miracle of delicacy. Roderick Williams's performance is wonderful. Very natural and fluent, no histrionics. Brabbins cooperates in the best way imaginable, he manages the ebb and flow of the music in exemplary fashion. Festal Dance and Symphony No. 27 are just as well-conducted. In the latter work Mackerras is different but equally good, I think. But the flute solos here are (even) better, in my opinion. Can't wait to hear No. 28, another very strong late work, on the forthcoming Naxos CD to see how it compares!

Now - lunch!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 29, 2015, 07:30:15 AM
And it's the first time I have truly felt that the words are no impediment to my enjoyment of the work. Suddenly this symphony feels the equal of some other favourites. I think the Wine of Summer is now going to be one of my most played Brian symphonies.
Having said that,I have to admit that the words did sort of have a strange fascination for me as a youngster and,as to Brian Rayner Cook's 'mannerisms';they never bothered me in the same way as some other English singers I can think of.Ian Bostridge for example! ??? Indeed,I can remember expressing doubts in earlier posts that anyone could interpret the work as well as Cook. It did seem almost like 'his' work and there was only one performance to compare it with,which,even if you have misgivings about Rayner Cook's interpretation,strikes me as inferior. What did worry me was the possibility of an interpretation I did not like. Another Mark Stone disappointment. I still think Brian Rayner Cook's performances of the songs are very good;so the fact that there was a good selection of Brian's best songs on cd meant that this didn't matter so much. But the Wine of Summer is a very important work in Brian's output. A first commercial release of this work would need to be first rate. Remember the Hyperion third and Marco Polo Violin Concerto,let alone the disastrous Second! So much depends on the first outing for a rare opus. And those flowery words! Fortunately Dutton have got everything right! Even the Festal Dance minus the piano! ;D Think,this is the first time some people will have heard this work (and the others of course!). I still think Testament (or some other label?) should release the Brian Rayner Cook performance on cd at some later date. Holmes interpretation of the Violin Concerto would make a marvelous coupling. That said;in the annal of Brian recordings this a classic to add to the Lyrita recordings of 6 & 16 and the LSSO 10,21 and 22! (And the emi 8 & 9 is pretty well up there too!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 29, 2015, 07:56:01 AM
It's good to be a Brianite these days! What a difference with the '70s and '80s when I first got hooked in 'far away' Holland... Only thanks to British fellow members of the HBS was I able to hear most of the symphonies that had been broadcast. And now, look what a cornucopia!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 29, 2015, 08:39:21 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 29, 2015, 07:56:01 AM
It's good to be a Brianite these days! What a difference with the '70s and '80s when I first got hooked in 'far away' Holland... Only thanks to British fellow members of the HBS was I able to hear most of the symphonies that had been broadcast. And now, look what a cornucopia!

Indeed, Johan! There is now no need whatsoever for anybody to make fatuous judgements of Brian based on inferior performances: Brabbins' superlative Gothic on Hyperion; Friend's The Tigers on Testament; ideal accounts of symphonies 6 & 16 on Lyrita; EMI's set of symphonies 7-9; four immaculate Dutton CDs (Symphonies 5, 10, 13, 19, 27 and 30 plus important works such as the third and fourth English Suites, the Cello Concerto and the Concerto for Orchestra); two seminal discs from Toccata and certain discs in the Marco Polo series (especially Symphonies 11, 15, 17, 22, 23, 24 & 32). An essential Brian library.

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 29, 2015, 11:57:24 AM
I actually quite like the Marco Polo performance of Das Siegeslied. The choirs are great and for some reason I rather like their soloist. In fact,it's the only one I really like from the original releases. If I want to listen to the ones Albion cites I always go for the broadcast versions. But then I'm lucky to have access to these. For anyone else coming new to Brian the Marco Polo/Naxos releases of 11,15 upwards (the recent ones were first rate) are perfectly satisfactory. In fact,I can't really pin my finger on anything specifically wrong with their recordings of say,11,15 & 17. Not allot really! Particularly their eleventh! Maybe just my imagination?! ;D I just think the older R3 ones have more atmosphere really & other qualities I don't really have the qualifications (being a mere listener) to really explain here;except that they just seem to get them right! ;D Also,maybe I'm just prejudiced because the Marco Polo performance of the Gothic nearly put me off Brian (after some initial,albeit,short lived enthusiasm). Thank goodness I was able to listen to the Schmidt and Boult performances again,thanks to these forums,and renew my enthusiasm for Brian! The choirs were admittedly good though! I should have mentioned the Mackerras emi recordings. Again,my preference for the BBC recording got the better of me. The emi recordings are actually very good. If I didn't have the Newstone I'd probably listen to it allot! And the Hyperion third is good enough to intrigue a newcomer. Having said that,imho Pope = Friend  =no comparison! The Dutton cds are all superb. Finding things wrong with the Brabbins tenth does seem like nit-picking;but I'd still urge newcomers to buy the LSSO recording!
Wonderful isn't! (Now some more Joseph Holbrooke and Daniel Jones please! ;D) I hope Dutton are interested in Brian's Second which urgently needs a first rate commercial recording. It seems a bit of a Cinderella for some Brianites but I love it!! Next to No 3 it has to be one of my favourites.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 29, 2015, 12:54:55 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 28, 2015, 02:00:03 PM
You're presumably not a true,die hard Brianite

What a suggestion!  >:D

I'll have you know that not only did I, for example, attend the Martyn Brabbins performance of 'The Gothic Symphony' a few years ago but also, as a youth, the Ole Schmidt performance in 1980 when, according to my calculations, the rest of you were either not born at all,or four years old.

Also, Havergal Brian came up in my interview for my first teaching job in 1978. Anyway, my nerve finally cracked under this Brianite pressure and I played 'Wine of Summer' in the car on my way to work today and enjoyed it. Not sure I have ever heard it before. Odd echoes of Warlock and Britten seemed disconcerting but I greatly enjoyed this work, especially the opening and dramatic closing sections. At about 3.45 minutes there is a violin theme which, I am sure, reoccurs in the 22nd Symphony which is one of my favourites - now back to Noah  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 29, 2015, 01:34:19 PM
Okay,okay,Vandermolen,you've made your point!! (The pressure worked! ??? ;D) Two performances of the Gothic? That certainly put me in my place!! That said,I feel obliged to point out that by my calculations I was at the tender age of seventeen when the Ole Schmidt performance took place! And now everybody knows how old I am! :(

Warlock and Britten! Interesting comparisons. Which reminds me;I rather like Our Hunting Fathers I'd forgotten about that one.....and not in my collection!! :o

Enjoy your Noah! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 29, 2015, 01:40:35 PM
I have come to appreciate Britten. Wine of Summer can hold its own against him in word-setting and delicacy of scoring.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 29, 2015, 02:42:45 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 29, 2015, 01:34:19 PM
Okay,okay,Vandermolen,you've made your point!! (The pressure worked! ??? ;D) Two performances of the Gothic? That certainly put me in my place!! That said,I feel obliged to point out that by my calculations I was at the tender age of seventeen when the Ole Schmidt performance took place! And now everybody knows how old I am! :(

Warlock and Britten! Interesting comparisons. Which reminds me;I rather like Our Hunting Fathers I'd forgotten about that one.....and not in my collection!! :o

Enjoy your Noah! :)

Many thanks. I shall be returning to 'Wine of Summer' again over the weekend and then discovering the rest of the CD although 'Festal Dance' is familiar to me. I wonder if Dutton will record No. 16 which I like very much (I have the Lyrita recording). I have also been enjoying the powerful  Braunfels 'Sinfonia Brevis' and Malcolm Arnold's turbulent and anarchic 7th Symphony, released by Dutton in the same batch as the Brian CD. By the way I was 25 in 1980 - so you are a mere baby in comparison.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 29, 2015, 02:44:41 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 29, 2015, 01:40:35 PM
I have come to appreciate Britten. Wine of Summer can hold its own against him in word-setting and delicacy of scoring.

Very much agree with this. There are some beautiful flute passages.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 30, 2015, 04:24:03 AM
Now I've pressurised Vandermolen into listening to the new Brian Dutton cd,I'm going to have to hear this Noah soundtrack! What it is to have a conscience! I'm not going to buy it yet,though. After the flood (gettit?!! ;D) of cds that has been pouring through my letterbox recently,I don't want to risk any more "Sorry we missed you" with a scribbled " it's in the recycling bin" attached!! I wouldn't mind so much if it had been mine and clean! >:( Once I get it don't expect me to listen to it straight-away though! ;D
What sort of music can I expect,I wonder? I suppose there may be a post on this topic elsewhere? Apparently the only film score Brian ever worked on (unwittingly) was Jaws! :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 30, 2015, 04:33:16 AM
(On my way to Amsterdam.) The opening of The Gothic - a clear case of theft by John Williams. And as for the ending of The Muppet Show signature tune - without the closing bars of Symphony no. 16, it wouldn't have been there.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 30, 2015, 05:06:12 AM
Blossom dearie (the singer) on at the moment! Contrary to some misconceptions we Brianites listen to all kinds of stuff!
The Muppet Show hasn't been repeated for years here;although maybe it's been on satellite. The last time I watched it was on Irish tv at my parents when they used to lived on the coast. Dubbed into Irish Gaelic with all the appropriate voices. The guest voices curiously left untouched. So you'd have (say) Vincent Price speaking to Miss Piggy or Kermit in English and the puppet replying in Irish!! Subtitles at the bottom so you could follow the proceedings! I've still got some off air episodes I taped in  a box. I also still have a VCR attached to my LED tv,so if I pop one in I can verify your claim!! (And yes,I do have dvd player,believe it or not!! ;D) The Irish also had their own version of the once very popular Benny Hill Show with lots of speeded up sequences with Nuns losing various items of clothing. The less said the of that one the better! I think I've got a taped episode somewhere. Purely for the record of course!! :-[

Actually,i think I've droned on about this before! :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 30, 2015, 05:18:48 AM
I wonder what Vandermolen think of the Chandos recording of Arnold's Seventh? Talk about manic!! I bought the Chandos cycle recently. I just love that Chandos sound. The boomier the better as far as I'm concerned. I can never understand people who don't like it. I thought their Bax sounded great! In fact the only Chandos recording I didn't enjoy was their recording of Moeran's Cello Concerto. Not the music or the performance,of course. But the sound seemed excessively reverberant! I bought another issue of the same recording though (I can't remember which one it is? I'd have to check!) and that sounded fine!
Other than that I'm a very big fan of the Chandos sound! In fact,their cassettes sounded good,too. I bought some secondhand recently,so I should know!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 30, 2015, 07:07:47 AM
I have now posted about the Chandos recording/s on the Arnold thread. Maybe Vandermolen could reply there instead?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 31, 2015, 12:03:00 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on January 29, 2015, 11:57:24 AM
I actually quite like the Marco Polo performance of Das Siegeslied.

So do the boys and I  8)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/bUTTHEAD.gif)


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 31, 2015, 02:02:41 PM
 ;D The Marco polo Das Siegeslied rocks!! 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 31, 2015, 02:29:01 PM
No,actually I was wrong...........it friggin' rocks!!! 8)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on February 02, 2015, 07:03:40 AM
There's a glowing double-page 'feature' review of the Testament issue of The Tigers in the February edition of International Record Review (pp.12-13).

Giving the release IRR Outstanding status, and providing detailed background and cast information, Richard Whitehouse comments on "what may yet come to be recognized among the most distinctive operas of the twentieth century", judging both performance and recording "exemplary".

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 02, 2015, 07:30:50 AM
Thanks for the tip off Albion! Wow! Two pages? And The Tigers deserves them,if you ask me! I looked in the review index on the IRR website and it wasn't listed. I can see it listed in the outstanding releases,now.(I stopped buying it regularly so save some dough! :() I've bought a copy now from my usual outlet!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 04, 2015, 02:44:53 AM
Not wanting to appear a hypocrite I should point out that I haven't actually bought The Tigers set,yet! Partly because I spent too much money on cds last year and also because the flood of cds (that one isn't aimed at you Vandermolen ;D) seems to have led to the postman dumping my post in a green,recycling bin! I will be buying a copy at the first opportunity,however!! Admittedly,having the uploads does make resistance easier! Incidentally,can anyone tell me whether the Testament is in a slimline jewel case or 'fat box'? It has a libretto included I believe. A slimline jewel case will mean less conflict with maverick postmen!!

I just happened to look at Andrew Clements review again. While looking at it I noticed that four comments had been posted. I had read two of them,so I clicked on the show more comments thingummy which revealed a reply,apparently by the man himself (to an earlier post)! It does appear to be by him? If so,maybe he does have a sense of humour of some kind! Very droll! ;D

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jan/14/havergal-brian-the-tigers-review-bbcso-lionel-friend
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 04, 2015, 03:17:03 AM
Just saw Albion's post at the AMF. It is a slimline case. Good! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 04, 2015, 04:57:13 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 04, 2015, 03:17:03 AM
Just saw Albion's post at the AMF. It is a slimline case. Good! :)

Shame about the contents  :D Runs for cover...........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on February 04, 2015, 07:07:07 AM
Contents? What content is ever found in an opera? (Runs even harder).  >:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 04, 2015, 07:38:20 AM
It's like Fawlty Towers in here, with all these irreverent men running around.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 04, 2015, 07:40:44 AM
Oh, and cilgwyn: I read Clements' comment. Droll, indeed. Let's hope his new pro-Brian stance lasts.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on February 04, 2015, 07:44:05 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 04, 2015, 07:40:44 AM
Oh, and cilgwyn: I read Clements' comment. Droll, indeed. Let's hope his new pro-Brian stance lasts.

Then again, if previous anti-Brian (or indifferent) stance did not stop you from becoming a Brianite, why would him converting to a pro-Brian stance mean anything to you or me?

I prefer that none of them change their stance. It gives me a sense of superiority over the ignorant!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 04, 2015, 07:56:27 AM
Andrew Clements isn't important in himself, his position is. His positivity re Brian can make people perhaps look more favorably on the old man.

Btw, your superiority is a fact of life, springrite, no love of Brian needed. ;-)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 04, 2015, 11:15:03 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 04, 2015, 07:38:20 AM
It's like Fawlty Towers in here, with all these irreverent men running around.
Can I be O'Reilly the builder please? I liked him.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 05, 2015, 01:33:28 AM
I know nothing! :-X ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 05, 2015, 02:47:26 AM
(Cilgwyn is from Barcelona. Just saying.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2015, 05:22:50 AM
Sensational news. I have acted quickly. Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony will be performed in Braunschweig, Germany, on 10 and 11 May! Link here:

http://staatstheater-braunschweig.de/nc/staatsorchester/produktion/details/9-sinfoniekonzert/  (http://staatstheater-braunschweig.de/nc/staatsorchester/produktion/details/9-sinfoniekonzert/)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 09, 2015, 05:31:01 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2015, 05:22:50 AM
Sensational news. I have acted quickly. Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony will be performed in Braunschweig, Germany, on 10 and 11 May! Link here:

http://staatstheater-braunschweig.de/nc/staatsorchester/produktion/details/9-sinfoniekonzert/  (http://staatstheater-braunschweig.de/nc/staatsorchester/produktion/details/9-sinfoniekonzert/)
Wow!! ??? :o :o Fantastic! Another performance! As Victor Meldrew would say ("I don't believe it!")............!!!
And hello Cpo! This is in their neck of the woods,as they say.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2015, 05:35:41 AM
I am going with my sister, like last time. We 're driving there, it's only about 4 hours.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on February 09, 2015, 05:36:36 AM
Excellent!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 09, 2015, 06:59:05 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2015, 05:35:41 AM
I am going with my sister, like last time. We 're driving there, it's only about 4 hours.
Remind her to bring her camera phone (or whatever you call them!) ;D No need for a steadicam with your sister around.
Of course,this is absolutely outrageous,you barely had time to finish reading..........and then this!! :o ;D I mean,what next? The Tigers? In Germany. That would be a wonderful irony.

You never know what's around the corner!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2015, 07:06:57 AM
I must say - it hasn't sunk in yet...  Havergal invades Germany!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on February 09, 2015, 07:09:14 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2015, 07:06:57 AM
I must say - it hasn't sunk in yet...  Havergal invades Germany!!

...and the city formerly known as Stalingrad is next and will finally fall!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2015, 07:11:57 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 09, 2015, 07:48:16 AM
A German performance of Das Siegeslied after that! ;D
(And they can do Holbrooke's Cauldron of Annwn cycle for us Holbrookanites while they're at it! There is more to life than Brian,so I'm told! I don't believe them,of course! ;D)
I've got James Brown on at the moment,mind you,so maybe there is?!! ??? ;D And no,I'm not playing his famous track,"Wake up I feel like a Brianite!"

I see the Staatsorchester recorded Spohr's rare opera Der Alchymist in 2011. I'm a bit of a fan of Spohr,although I don't have that,unfortunately! It all sounds very promising indeed! Bet you can't wait?!!



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 09, 2015, 07:50:18 AM
Wake up.I feel like Das Siegeslied!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2015, 07:59:09 AM
I've been listening to Frank Sinatra these past few days... Yes, I'm really looking forward to it. Hotel has already been booked. I am going to combine the concert with a pilgrimage to the place in the countryside (Luneburg Heath) where my favourite German writer from the post-war era lived and worked, Arno Schmidt. North of Braunschweig...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on February 09, 2015, 11:34:25 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2015, 07:59:09 AM
I've been listening to Frank Sinatra these past few days... Yes, I'm really looking forward to it. Hotel has already been booked. I am going to combine the concert with a pilgrimage to the place in the countryside (Luneburg Heath) where my favourite German writer from the post-war era lived and worked, Arno Schmidt. North of Braunschweig...

Did you know that Frank Sinatra (whose music I grew up listening to as he was my father's favourite) was a great admirer of the music of Vaughan Williams, especially 'Job'? Not sure what Frank would have made of HB but great news about the Gothic Symphony.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on February 09, 2015, 07:50:33 PM
Very good news about the Gothic.

Did anyone else notice that the BBC broadcast a performance of the Burlesque Variation at midnight on Sunday the 8th of Feb? Here's the blurb.

"The BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra and conductor Garry Walker perform music by the great British eccentric composer Havergal Brian. His Burlesque Variations was written in 1903 and not performed until 1980. This recording from July 2009 was made at City Halls, Glasgow."

I managed to record it and I will put it up on Mediafire. The performance doesn't, otherwise, appear to be available.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 09, 2015, 10:45:20 PM
Hattoff, our sharp-eared sentinel! I never knew about that performance in the first place (or I have forgotten about it). Do upload! It will be interesting to compare and contrast with the Toccata CD (assuming it's not the same, haven't checked, my computer is still off and I have it as a download).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on February 09, 2015, 11:33:43 PM
It WAS the Toccata CD performance...

Not only does the Radio 3 website for the transmission refer to HB as a 'great British eccentric composer', but they also said that he composed 32 symphonies in the 1920s, which I'm sure is news to all of us!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 10, 2015, 01:05:34 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on February 09, 2015, 11:33:43 PMNot only does the Radio 3 website for the transmission refer to HB as a 'great British eccentric composer', but they also said that he composed 32 symphonies in the 1920s, which I'm sure is news to all of us!

Common knowledge. Where have you been!?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 10, 2015, 01:05:44 AM
I saw that piece in the Radio 3 schedules and assumed it was the Toccata CD. I meant to write grumbling about the designation of HB as the "great British eccentric composer", I thought it would have been better to say "great British composer" myself.

I'm still waiting to hear the new Dutton, I think they tied my CD to a fish near Tilbury, hoping it would swim to Australia.

>:( (impatient).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 10, 2015, 01:19:39 AM
Ha! I know how you feel.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 10, 2015, 02:35:02 AM
Nothing wrong with being eccentric! Although,I don't recall Bax being referred to as eccentric even though his lifestyle was certainly more eccentric than Brian's! Holbrooke,now he was eccentric! If you'd bumped into him accidentally you'd have probably been desperately hoping you wouldn't bump into him again! If you'd met Brian you probably would have thought of him as a down to earth sort of bloke with a dry northern sense of humour. If you showed an interest in literature and music he probably would have been pleased to talk to you about it;but you wouldn't have thought there was anything particularly eccentric about him. Although,I gather he wasn't such good company in his younger days, when he was on the bottle! Is that true? (Someone needs to write a really good biography).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 10, 2015, 02:48:07 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 10, 2015, 01:05:44 AM
I'm still waiting to hear the new Dutton, I think they tied my CD to a fish near Tilbury, hoping it would swim to Australia.

It took my copy ten days to cross the channel. You, in Australia, may be looking at a Christmas present  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 10, 2015, 02:49:33 AM
Lucky you calyptorhyncus,you'll be opening it under the Xmas tree! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 10, 2015, 02:50:18 AM
And then there was Lord Berners who was famously eccentric. Although maybe "willfully eccentric" would be a better way of describing him. I like his The Triumph of Neptune ballet and play it occasionally. As to Brian I don't really object to him being called eccentric and I suppose it's true to say that the average man (or woman) in the street doesn't compose a colossal record breaking symphony for hundreds of performers,let alone a further thirty one and an opera with walk on parts for elephants. More's the pity I say!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 10, 2015, 02:52:26 AM
Elephant! Only one,fair play!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 10, 2015, 02:58:23 AM
Brian, in my opinion, was only eccentric in the literal sense. He was a very level-headed visionary.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 10, 2015, 03:23:14 AM
Quite! Which reminds me of this line from my old Penguin Guide to Compact Discs (and cassettes),"Was Havergal Brian,composer of 32 symphonies.20 of them written after he was eighty,a genius or just an obsessed megalomaniac"!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 10, 2015, 03:23:54 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 10, 2015, 03:29:30 AM
Just a genius, and driven, not obsessed: he knew when to quit composing. (John Whitmore will add: But far too late.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 10, 2015, 03:43:47 AM
They write some daft things! Follow that line of thought and Maher and Wagner are both megalomaniacs,too!
Now Hitler? He was a megalomaniac and a tad on the obsessive side. I don't remember Brian invading Poland. Although I rather hope he does! He is getting around a bit now!! ;D

By the way,someone over at the AMF is wondering who the conductor of the Gothic is going to be?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 10, 2015, 03:50:24 AM
http://staatstheater-braunschweig.de/nc/staatsorchester/produktion/details/9-sinfoniekonzert/ (http://staatstheater-braunschweig.de/nc/staatsorchester/produktion/details/9-sinfoniekonzert/)

"Musikalische Leitung: N.N." - ergo: conductor unknown...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on February 10, 2015, 03:58:23 AM
Searching around for more details, I see some websites, eg:
http://www.braunschweig.de/kultur/veranstaltungen/index.html?&text=Sinfoniekonzert
give the conductor as Peter Halasz, who seems to be the Music Director of Hungarian State Opera.

But I can't find any reference to soloists.  I wonder if these could be drawn from the Braunschweig Stadtstheater opera company?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on February 10, 2015, 05:05:55 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 10, 2015, 03:23:14 AM
Quite! Which reminds me of this line from my old Penguin Guide to Compact Discs (and cassettes),"Was Havergal Brian,composer of 32 symphonies.20 of them written after he was eighty,a genius or just an obsessed megalomaniac"!

Objection, your honor: hostile witness.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 10, 2015, 05:18:16 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 10, 2015, 03:23:14 AM
Quite! Which reminds me of this line from my old Penguin Guide to Compact Discs (and cassettes),"Was Havergal Brian,composer of 32 symphonies.20 of them written after he was eighty,a genius or just an obsessed megalomaniac"!

Silly thing to say. Penguin would never write: Was Franz Schubert, composer of over 600 songs by the time he was 31, a genius or just an obsessed megalomaniac?

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on February 10, 2015, 05:26:05 AM
Exactly:  an artist doing his work, megalomaniacal obsession, tchah!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 10, 2015, 05:27:19 AM
Implicit in that Penguin quote is that when the creative flame still burns in old age you're not normal. You should start forgetting things, and fade away, drooling.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 10, 2015, 05:28:55 AM
Oh, and thank you, Augustus, for your Sherlockian exertions. We'll wait and see.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: pjme on February 10, 2015, 06:44:31 AM
The Gothic in Braunschweig in May 2015!? This is very tempting! Antwerp - Braunschweig: that's only ca 450 km....I may go there!

I listened to both the 6th and the 16th this afternoon:

(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/S/R/SRCD295.jpg)

Peter
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 10, 2015, 06:53:03 AM
From Amsterdam it's a four and a half hours' drive, so - doable. If you go, order your ticket asap, prices range from €14 to €34! More than half the tickets were already sold yesterday.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: pjme on February 10, 2015, 07:08:52 AM
Bedankt - ik moet even overleggen en en beslis dan snel.
Thanks - I'll keep you informed.

Peter
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 10, 2015, 07:11:54 AM
Denk maar even. Ik ben benieuwd!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 10, 2015, 07:27:34 AM
To be fair to the Penguin guide critic,he does go on to say some positive things (about the Marco Polo Gothic),"Despite a few incidental flaws,it conveys surging excitement from first to last.....". "On one level this is music for wallowing in,yet on repetition it is a work which firmly establishes it's landmarks in the memory....". I like the bit about the "still horn chords that echo Wagner's Rheingold." I just don't know where the writer got the bit about obsessive megalomania?! It's funny how before the internet came along (or at least took off) I would regularly plough through books like this. They're a bit redundant now.
What actually rankles me a bit more is observations like this,in their review of the Hyperion third,"The work is full of extraordinarily imaginative and original touches,but the overall lack of rhythmic variety is a handicap." I can't agree with that at all. In fact,I think the score is so packed full of imaginative,striking ideas that it is in danger of bursting at the seams. Like The Tigers maybe a little too garrulous for it's own good,but in a good way!
I wonder is the writer Robert Layton? I seem to remember the same criticism leveled (in Gramophone) at the emi recordings of No's 8 & 9! Again,I don't agree. The Gramophone review were generally favourable though and I did enjoy reading their reviews in the magazines heyday. It introduced me to so much wonderful music!. Has anone seen a copy,by the way,since it was taken over by the new owners? Any improvement? I suppose I could buy a copy. It's usually in WH Smiths.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on February 10, 2015, 09:02:22 AM
Quote from: pjme on February 10, 2015, 07:08:52 AM
Bedankt - ik moet even overleggen en en beslis dan snel.
Thanks - I'll keep you informed.

Peter

I'm considering the same plan. Might see a lot of Continental Brianites in Braunschweig.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 10, 2015, 09:35:36 AM
AB = American Brianite
BB = British Brianite
CB = Continental Brianite
ChB = Chinese Brianite
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on February 10, 2015, 09:42:23 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 10, 2015, 09:35:36 AM
AB = American Brianite
BB = British Brianite
CB = Continental Brianite
ChB = Chinese Brianite

Nice to have an entire category all for myself!  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 10, 2015, 11:34:08 AM
Hey, what about the AuBs (Australian Brianites)?

(Though I was a BB when I first heard him.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 10, 2015, 11:37:24 AM
..Peter Halasz, sounds familiar, I think he's done some recordings for Naxos...

Racks brain.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on February 10, 2015, 12:02:03 PM
That was my first thought, but that seems to have been Michael Halasz, who conducted Fidelio, Magic Flute, Schubert Symphonies and a fair number of other discs for Naxos.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 10, 2015, 11:29:45 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 10, 2015, 03:29:30 AM
Just a genius, and driven, not obsessed: he knew when to quit composing. (John Whitmore will add: But far too late.)
Hey, why are you picking one me? Anyway, you are wrong. He should never have started composing.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 10, 2015, 11:31:27 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 10, 2015, 03:43:47 AM
They write some daft things! Follow that line of thought and Maher and Wagner are both megalomaniacs,too!
Now Hitler? He was a megalomaniac and a tad on the obsessive side. I don't remember Brian invading Poland. Although I rather hope he does! He is getting around a bit now!! ;D

By the way,someone over at the AMF is wondering who the conductor of the Gothic is going to be?!
Hitler's music is terrible. Give it a very wide berth.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 10, 2015, 11:35:42 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on February 10, 2015, 11:29:45 PM
Hey, why are you picking one me? Anyway, you are wrong. He should never have started composing.  :D

You never disappoint.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 10, 2015, 11:40:03 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on February 10, 2015, 11:31:27 PM
Hitler's music is terrible. Give it a very wide berth.

There is a story, intriguingly called The Complete Symphonies of Adolf Hitler, by British writer Reggie Oliver. I read it. The title is the best thing about it...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 11, 2015, 02:27:56 AM
Even more scary.....the Curse of Don Gillis! I took a load of Don Gillis cds to a charity shop to get rid of them. On the way I accidentally left them in a shop. Six months later I went back in there and the girl said to me,"Did you leave this bag in here?!" ??? :o :( Even worse,she now knows I had Diamanda Galas in my collection! No wonder the Welsh branch of the YMCA went down with all those Diamanda Galas cds in the window! ??? :( And John thinks Das Siegeslied is bad!!

Nico was a laugh-a-minute by comparison!

Regarding works other than symphonies that Dutton include on their HB cds. They haven't really used them all up. I think new recordings of Dr Merryheart and In Memoriam are definitely in order! Particularly the latter! I don't think the Marco Polo recordings do them justice. (Although,I must admit I would like them to do his Symphony No 2 next!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 11, 2015, 02:37:11 AM
....and now everyone knows!! ??? :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 11, 2015, 03:13:34 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 11, 2015, 02:27:56 AMEven worse,she now knows I had Diamanda Galas in my collection!

Galás has been described as "capable of the most unnerving vocal terror." --Wiki

She sounds delightful  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 11, 2015, 03:51:42 AM
Cds that reduce unwary callers to uncontrollable laughter ie clutching their stomach and spitting out mouthfuls of coffee,can't be all bad! Which is more than I can say for my floor! :( >:( Her howling,shrieking,hissing and all the other wierd indescribable sounds she makes (and they are definitely wierd!) with her pseudo operatic vocal abilities are admittedly great for parties! Other than that,I'm not so sure?!! I have heard worse though!

York Bowen!! ??? :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on February 11, 2015, 07:07:19 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 11, 2015, 03:51:42 AMher pseudo operatic vocal abilities are admittedly great for parties! Other than that,I'm not so sure?!! I have heard worse though!

York Bowen!! ??? :o ;D

Yep, it's sadly true that his latest album Yobo Sings Scat, in which he rather unwisely duetted with Margarita Pracatan, went straight from release to the bargain bin in our local Aldi.

:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 11, 2015, 12:09:12 PM
 ;D I can't help wondering if Diamanda Galas has heard of the great Florence Foster Jenkins?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on February 11, 2015, 12:34:14 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 10, 2015, 09:35:36 AM
AB = American Brianite
BB = British Brianite
CB = Continental Brianite
ChB = Chinese Brianite

And BABEs = British Anti-Brianite Elitists
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 11, 2015, 12:40:34 PM
BABEs... That acronym makes those despicable creatures far too appealing. It won't get into the Brianic Dictionary, if I can help it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on February 11, 2015, 12:57:06 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 11, 2015, 12:40:34 PM
BABEs... That acronym makes those despicable creatures far too appealing. It won't get into the Brianic Dictionary, if I can help it.

Female Anti-Brianite Idiots of Britain

FABIB
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 11, 2015, 01:01:32 PM
Quote from: springrite on February 11, 2015, 12:57:06 PM
Female Anti-Brianite Idiots of Britain

FABIB

Approved unanimously (by me).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2015, 01:43:18 AM
They are here...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 12, 2015, 02:14:57 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2015, 01:43:18 AM
They are here...
Don't worry Johan.You might be able to shift them on Ebay.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2015, 02:33:13 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/WTdO-w3xnpw
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 12, 2015, 02:39:01 AM
 ;D Wow! Thanks for that image,Johan. Hopefully,you will have a printed program to bring back,as well.I must admit I thought it was a special Brianite keyboard for a moment! (where are the HB coffee mugs,coasters and T shirts,by the way? We've had the bus,haven't we?!!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2015, 02:46:05 AM
Of course I'll bring back a program and take a picture of it. Btw, from the ticket I learned there will be an "Einführung" (Introduction) to the work at 10:15. Wonder who will do it. I guess Jürgen Schaarwächter, the only German musicologist who has studied the British symphonic tradition and knows his Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 12, 2015, 06:48:37 AM
You mentioned the writer Arno Schmidt in an earlier post. I hadn't heard of him,I'm afraid. According to Wikipedia he's not easy to translate. I presume you read his books in the original German? Just wondered. My father speaks Welsh as his first language and he's always complaining about poor translations of Welsh literature into English,and the problems of translating a book into another language.

I hope they do provide a program. I gather some concerts don't provide them now;presumably because people can look things up on the internet & download them!
Paper manuals with electrical goods and librettos with opera cds are another issue! Annoying! >:( ;D I bought a new mini hi-fi a few weeks ago & ended up printing virtually the whole book out. It's on the side there,fastened together with a big metal bulldog paperclip!! I didn't mind that much,but I would have preferred a professionally printed copy with the hi-fi! I worked out most of it on my own,mind! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2015, 06:57:41 AM
Arno Schmidt is a great but demanding writer. I read him in the original German. Despite his difficulty, his whole oeuvre has been translated into English by John E. Woods, and quite masterfully, too. I discovered Schmidt's work in 1985 through Joyce, a writer he admired and with whom he was in competition... Brian and Schmidt have been my 'contemporary gods', their example has inspired and encouraged me in my own ambitious endeavours.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 12, 2015, 07:22:54 AM
Reading one of the customer reviews of Arno Schmidt on Amazon,his writing sounds a bit like a literary equivalent of late Brian in terms of the way it is constructed!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 12, 2015, 07:36:09 AM
"Conventional narrative transitions are often excised"
"The result is a comparatively short, but dense text,as if all the filler of ordinary novels were discarded, and only the good stuff' remained".

I suppose the resemblance ends there,but it did sound familiar! ;D



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 12, 2015, 07:36:43 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2015, 06:57:41 AM
Arno Schmidt is a great but demanding writer. I read him in the original German. Despite his difficulty, his whole oeuvre has been translated into English by John E. Woods, and quite masterfully, too. I discovered Schmidt's work in 1985 through Joyce, a writer he admired and with whom he was in competition... Brian and Schmidt have been my 'contemporary gods', their example has inspired and encouraged me in my own ambitious endeavours.
Who's Joyce, a former girlfriend?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2015, 07:40:39 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on February 12, 2015, 07:36:09 AM
"Conventional narrative transitions are often excised"
"The result is a comparatively short, but dense text,as if all the filler of ordinary novels were discarded, and only the good stuff' remained".

I suppose the resemblance ends there,but it did sound familiar! ;D

Concision and allusiveness IS what they have in common. Another resemblance - both had a relatively modest background and never fitted into any musical or literary establishment.

Quote from: John Whitmore on February 12, 2015, 07:36:43 AM
Who's Joyce, a former girlfriend?

Nope. Would have been apt, though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 13, 2015, 07:00:23 AM
Just bought a copy of Gramophone Magazine. The magazine has new owners now,in case anyone didn't know.While the reviews could be longer,they are longer than they were! The celebrity cr** has been taken out of it and most if not all of those silly lists. The magazine has returned to a focus on the music itself with more reviews. There's an all but whole page devoted to a review of a new book about the life & times of George Dyson and articles include one about Scriabin. A definite improvement. While it's not IRR Magazine imho it's allot better than it's been for quite a while. No reviews of Havergal Brian cds in this issue,I'm afraid! If you want real depth keep subscribing to IRR;but I might buy this again. It'll be ideal for the bathroom!! ;D

£5.50 now,though! :o :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 13, 2015, 01:43:02 PM
Wow! I must have been in a good mood, Oh yes,I got a new camcorder!
Slight improvement...but don't cancel your IRR Mag subscription yet! It's still strictly kids stuff!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on February 15, 2015, 09:24:56 AM
Greatly enjoyed symphonies 6 and 16 and the fine Arnold Cooke accompanying symphony as well (on Lyrita). Two of Brian's finest I think.
[asin]B0014FLGRQ[/asin]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on February 20, 2015, 10:46:07 AM
That disc of 6 and 16 remains perhaps the very best of of those Brian discs recorded in the last 40 years.  However, I think now that I would recommend the new Dutton of "Wine of Summer", 19 & 27 as the best place to start, along with the Heritage reissue of the extracts from The Tigers.  I'm just beginning to sense that the Lyrita is showing its age, which i never thought itwould.
I'm told by contacts at Select, the UK Naxos distributor that the disc by Alexander Walker and the New Russia Symphony Orchestra is slated for issue on the 1st April.  I wonder how his version of 6 is going to compare with the 'classic' Lyrita?  I hardly know it any other way than on the Fredman disc, so it's always difficult to get to grips with a different interpretation after only having one version for all this time.  I'm also particularly looking forward to Symphony 28 on the new disc.  It seems to me like a little gem among the late works, although those who have seen the score say that Stokowski misrepresented it in the only recording so far available.
How are people getting on with 'The Tigers'?   I've found my admiration for it greatly increased by having the Testament CDs with their excellent sound compared to the off-air recordings that have been circulating.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 20, 2015, 02:14:21 PM
Yes, it will be quite a shock to hear the Sinfonia Tragica in a new performance after so many years of living with the Fredman. End of an era. I share your eagerness to hear Symphony No. 28 properly (I hope). Stokowski creates a lovely sound and the middle movements are haunting, but according to Malcolm MacDonald the tempi are wrong, and in the finale the percussion is far too loud. We'll have to see what Walker will have made of this, potentially,  wonderful work. Lyrita, Heritage and the new Dutton CD: yes, these three do Brian proud. If people only listened to those, they certainly would get a good idea of what Brian stands for. As for the Testament Tigers - I still have to order it... I certainly will. Though I have quite good recordings already (I think).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on February 20, 2015, 02:17:25 PM
I'd agree whole-heartedly with your high opinion of the Lyrita 6+16 and likewise the Dutton 5+19+27: these, together with the Hyperion Gothic and the EMI set of 7+8+9+31 are surely now the cornerstones of any Brian symphony collection. I'm also greatly looking forward to the forthcoming Naxos disc, especially with regard to 28+29 but also 6 - it is wonderful to reach a point where some of the symphonies are being re-recorded and introduced to twenty-first-century orchestras.

The Testament release of The Tigers is fantastic in all respects (performance, engineering and presentation) and a model of what can and should be done with seminal radio studio recordings: in an ideal world a coupling of the BBC Agamemnon and prologue to Faust broadcasts should follow, together with Norman Del Mar's magnificent 1979 rendition of Bantock's Omar Khayyam.

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 20, 2015, 02:23:11 PM
You a salesman, Albion? You know how to get people to part with their money...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on February 20, 2015, 02:33:31 PM
One feels one has to do one's bit for the tottering classical CD industry.

Hehe - there's no pockets in shrouds ...

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 20, 2015, 02:38:15 PM
Quote from: Albion on February 20, 2015, 02:33:31 PM
One feels one has to do one's bit for the tottering classical CD industry.

Hehe - there's no pockets in shrouds ...

;)

;D

(The other recordings you mention are excellent, too, of course. 7, 8, 9, 31 are so much part of my life, I'd almost forget them! And the LSSO 10, which Brabbins hasn't surpassed, is also indelibly there. The hunt is on for the Third Tenth, which will be perfection itself...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on February 21, 2015, 12:01:49 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 20, 2015, 02:38:15 PM
;D

(The other recordings you mention are excellent, too, of course. 7, 8, 9, 31 are so much part of my life, I'd almost forget them! And the LSSO 10, which Brabbins hasn't surpassed, is also indelibly there. The hunt is on for the Third Tenth, which will be perfection itself...)

Very much agree with this. Very pleased to hear of a new recording of Symphony 6.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 21, 2015, 03:33:07 AM
Quote from: Albion on February 20, 2015, 02:17:25 PM
I'd agree whole-heartedly with your high opinion of the Lyrita 6+16 and likewise the Dutton 5+19+27: these, together with the Hyperion Gothic and the EMI set of 7+8+9+31 are surely now the cornerstones of any Brian symphony collection. I'm also greatly looking forward to the forthcoming Naxos disc, especially with regard to 28+29 but also 6 - it is wonderful to reach a point where some of the symphonies are being re-recorded and introduced to twenty-first-century orchestras.

The Testament release of The Tigers is fantastic in all respects (performance, engineering and presentation) and a model of what can and should be done with seminal radio studio recordings: in an ideal world a coupling of the BBC Agamemnon and prologue to Faust broadcasts should follow, together with Norman Del Mar's magnificent 1979 rendition of Bantock's Omar Khayyam.

:)
The prologue to Faust and Agamemnon on a Testament cd? What an inspired suggestion! Even better than my suggestions for couplings of the Ralph Holmes Violin Concerto (although that would be high on my list) and the Rayner Cook Wine of Summer,which is still a very important document imho,even if you think the Dutton recording surpasses it (which it almost certainly does!).....or my other suggestions;the Mackerras Second (the Marco Polo is awful) and the Pope third;because the Hyperion just doesn't do it justice,passable as it is,in many ways!
All the off air recordings of Agamemnon I've heard are in such dreadful sound quality!! ??? :(

Even better.....the BBC could give us a complete Faust! (Well,you can only hope! :( ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on February 21, 2015, 03:50:49 AM
Oops! In my eagerness I missed the crucial "in an ideal world" bit in Albions post! :(
Oh what the heck! Here are my other "in an ideal world" suggestions for Heritage! The Newstone Seventh the Schmidt Gothic and the Poole Das Siegeslied!!

As Private Eye would say,"that's enough suggestions,ed!"  ;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on February 24, 2015, 02:26:23 AM
(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/8/5/8573408.jpg)

http://www.mdt.co.uk/brian-havergal-symphonies-nos-6-symphony-orchestra-alexander-walker-naxos.html (http://www.mdt.co.uk/brian-havergal-symphonies-nos-6-symphony-orchestra-alexander-walker-naxos.html)

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 24, 2015, 02:41:44 AM
Excellent!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on February 24, 2015, 02:55:44 AM
Filling in the last real gaps in the Brian symphonies discography, AFAIK. End of part I, enter part II: the arrived composer.  ;)

Edit: please enter with the details of the final gaps, here. (14, 26, and?)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 24, 2015, 03:00:17 AM
Only symphonies 14 and 26 remain to be done. No. 14 is a very strong piece, no. 26 one of the lesser ones (first movement is okay). We also need another Second and Third... 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on February 24, 2015, 03:01:43 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 24, 2015, 03:00:17 AM
Only symphonies 14 and 26 remain to be done. No. 14 is a very strong piece, no. 26 one of the lesser ones (first movement is okay). We also need another Second and Third... 

Exactly.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 24, 2015, 03:10:39 AM
 ;D

But - you are right: discographically speaking, Brian is no longer a neglected composer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on February 24, 2015, 08:31:21 AM
The gaps are certainly closing up fast.  I can hardly believe we'll have got five unreleased symphonies 5, 19, 27, 28 and 29 filled in in as many months.  Does anyone know of anything else in the planning?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 24, 2015, 08:43:24 AM
Nature abhors a vacuum... I predict Dutton and Naxos will do the honours. I expect 14 and 26 in the near future, plus a couple of new recordings of symphonies we already have. I hope No. 2 will be among them: a job for Dutton, Naxos already has a Second...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 24, 2015, 09:58:19 AM
My cup runneth over (or it will when I get hold of the Dutton and this new Naxos).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 24, 2015, 08:29:14 PM
And the Dutton arrived this morning!

I've been listening to it, like others here I think it's excellent and haven't got a single complaint. I was particularly rapt to hear No 27 clearly for the first time, like coming in to the concert hall rather than listening from outside through thick doors!

Both 27 and 19 reminded me that although Brian's orchestras are huge and his counterpoint is involved, a lot of his music goes for long stretches with just a few instruments playing. It's the delicacy of the music you miss in those old radio recordings.

And yes Roderick Williams has a wonderful voice and does his best with the awful words in 5*. As always, though, I keep on wishing there simply wasn't a vocal line and I could enjoy the strange new world of Brian's impressionist phase instrumentally.  ;)

* "Now, my Lord, could explain exactly how lost loves are like angry red kings?"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 24, 2015, 11:04:40 PM
Congratulations, calyptorhynchus! Your mettle has been sorely tested. I like your phrase 'impressionist phase', I never thought about Wine of Summer like that. Its sound-world is certainly unique. Some of the piano accompaniments to the songs evoke a similar dreamy atmosphere in a similarly delicate way. But in his orchestral works I can't think of anything else as pared-down... Tragica, opening movement, perhaps? Those lost loves burning like fierce red kings... And then Brian erects a skeletal contrapuntal edifice in response. I wonder who is weirder, Douglas or Brian!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on February 24, 2015, 11:09:26 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 24, 2015, 11:04:40 PM
I wonder who is weirder, Douglas or Brian!

Anyone similar to me can not possibly be weird. Unique, one of a kind, yes!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 24, 2015, 11:14:48 PM
When you return from your appointment, please tell us what your psychiatrist thought about that.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on February 24, 2015, 11:15:50 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 24, 2015, 11:14:48 PM
When you return from your appointment, please tell us what your psychiatrist thought about that.

I AM my psychiatrist!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 24, 2015, 11:16:32 PM
Well, last time I counted I had 1200 volumes of poetry on my shelves*, but Lord Alfred Douglas's Collected Works isn't there.

*(Thoreau once said "I have over 1000 books in my library, many my own works" [ie unsold copies of his publications]. I assure you I have a few boxes of unsold copies of my poetry collections, but those aren't included in the total above.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 24, 2015, 11:20:38 PM
Quote from: springrite on February 24, 2015, 11:15:50 PM
I AM my psychiatrist!

* shudders *

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 24, 2015, 11:16:32 PM
Well, last time I counted I had 1200 volumes of poetry on my shelves*, but Lord Alfred Douglas's Collected Works isn't there.

*(Thoreau once said "I have over 1000 books in my library, many my own works" [ie unsold copies of his publications]. I assure you I have a few boxes of unsold copies of my poetry collections, but those aren't included in the total above.)

An acquaintance of mine (Dutch) wrote a whole biography about Lord Alfred Douglas. He found his poetry underrated. I think history was right in this case...

Glad to see you are a poetry-lover, too!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on February 24, 2015, 11:32:22 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 24, 2015, 09:58:19 AMMy cup runneth over (or it will when I get hold of the Dutton and this new Naxos).

Does it surpass the unbeatable "Humboldt Redwoods State Park Community Orchestra under the unflappable baton of Armand Aisselle and baritone Hans Dieter Schwungvoll", one wonders. [AKA the 1976 live performance by the New Philharmonia Orchestra under Stanley Pope, with baritone Brian Rayner Cook].
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 25, 2015, 04:10:16 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 24, 2015, 08:29:14 PM
And yes Roderick Williams has a wonderful voice and does his best with the awful words in 5*. As always, though, I keep on wishing there simply wasn't a vocal line and I could enjoy the strange new world of Brian's impressionist phase instrumentally.  ;)

My complaint about the recording, and perhaps the only one, is the forward balance of the voice. I'd prefer a more realistic (i.e., concert hall) perspective. I think the voice is simply too big in relation to the orchestra. It's especially disconcerting at the first entry after that delicate and magical opening. I prefer the Pope/Cook in this respect. Having the voice as a more natural part of the musical texture has the additional advantage of playing down the poetry  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on February 26, 2015, 07:58:33 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on February 24, 2015, 11:20:38 PM
* shudders *

An acquaintance of mine (Dutch) wrote a whole biography about Lord Alfred Douglas. He found his poetry underrated. I think history was right in this case...

Glad to see you are a poetry-lover, too!

I used to admire Jack Douglas. He made me laugh with that pretend twitch of his.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 28, 2015, 01:54:45 PM
I just found the details of the new Naxos disk on their website, I note for 28

3.         II. Grazioso e leggiero - 00:03:28
4.         III. Andante espressivo - 00:03:45

Phew!

[Only a complete Brian tragic would understand this].

:)

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.573408

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 28, 2015, 02:02:10 PM
The second movement is now about right. But the Andante is almost as quick? Intriguing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 01, 2015, 12:53:49 AM
I think when I did that adjusted speed version of Stokowski those were approximately the times I had. Certainly the Andante wasn't much longer than the Grazioso.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 01, 2015, 12:57:44 AM
You're right. I discovered it later last night...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 01, 2015, 03:29:23 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 01, 2015, 12:57:44 AM
You're right. I discovered it later last night...
Klassic Haus transfer from Aries LP clocks in at 4:43 and 3:33.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sean on March 01, 2015, 06:19:50 AM
This is a long thread for a second-rate composer, guys!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 01, 2015, 06:56:37 AM
Second-rate comments won't help to make it shorter.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 01, 2015, 07:05:42 AM
And me wholeheartedly seconding that, neither.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on March 01, 2015, 12:34:35 PM
Further links:

http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/pdf/rear/8.573408r.pdf# (http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/pdf/rear/8.573408r.pdf#)

http://www.naxos.com/mainsite/blurbs_reviews.asp?item_code=8.573408&catNum=573408&filetype=About%20this%20Recording&language=English# (http://www.naxos.com/mainsite/blurbs_reviews.asp?item_code=8.573408&catNum=573408&filetype=About%20this%20Recording&language=English#)

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 01, 2015, 01:36:31 PM
Read all. Thanks, Albion! I cannot wait to hear it, especially the 'new' 6th and 28th.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 01, 2015, 02:11:00 PM
A welsh sculptor and dedicatee? I didn't know that!
Good! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 01, 2015, 02:13:26 PM
New Brian movie - The Welsh Connection.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 01, 2015, 03:15:01 PM
Just discovered this on YouTube: another performance of Symphony No. 27. The UK public premiere in Birmingham,  by an American orchestra...

http://youtu.be/_TMmNHOk89A
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 02, 2015, 12:55:32 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 01, 2015, 03:15:01 PM
Just discovered this on YouTube: another performance of Symphony No. 27. The UK public premiere in Birmingham,  by an American orchestra...

http://youtu.be/_TMmNHOk89A
Yes, Johan. I remember this performance. Apparently the Town Hall in Birmingham was virtually empty for this very good kids orchestra. No (or poor) publicity was blamed for the fiasco. Shame.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 04, 2015, 08:36:52 AM
Have ordered the Naxos Symphony 6 etc. Can't wait!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 04, 2015, 02:19:40 PM
I hope I can download the CD before its material release on April 14th... By the way, I think the timing for No. 28 is wrong here: the piece should be around 14 minutes, not 20. Look for yourselves: naxosdirect.com/items/brian-symphonies-nos.-6-28-29-31-304355 (http://naxosdirect.com/items/brian-symphonies-nos.-6-28-29-31-304355).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 04, 2015, 06:57:47 PM
At the Naxos site you can access the back cover of this release, and, from memory, No 28 is 14 minutes something.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 04, 2015, 09:45:54 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 04, 2015, 06:57:47 PMAt the Naxos site you can access the back cover of this release, and, from memory, No 28 is 14 minutes something.

Not 'something' but 14:00 exactly: http://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/pdf/rear/8.573408r.pdf#
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on March 05, 2015, 09:23:58 AM
Audio clips here, click on 'Listen' -

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Naxos/8573408 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Naxos/8573408)

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 05, 2015, 09:31:01 AM
!!!


P.S. Listened. Sounds excellent. No. 29 - slower tempi than in the Mackerras...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 07, 2015, 07:38:04 AM
Have the planned German Gothic performances been cancelled?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 07, 2015, 07:42:15 AM
Got this from the HBS a few moments ago:

"We have some unfortunate news related to the performances of the Gothic symphony that were noted in the recent newsletter.

The Braunschweig website pages have been changed to remove references to the Gothic, and now simply show Concert No. 9 as being of unspecified music, with a conductor to be announced. The booking links still work and lead to unchanged pages with the Gothic still there, but this could well be an oversight. http://staatstheater-braunschweig.de/staatsorchester/sinfoniekonzerte/. We will keep you updated as we get more news."

I already have my tickets. And booked a hotel.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 07, 2015, 08:47:40 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 07, 2015, 07:42:15 AM
Got this from the HBS a few moments ago:

"We have some unfortunate news related to the performances of the Gothic symphony that were noted in the recent newsletter.

The Braunschweig website pages have been changed to remove references to the Gothic, and now simply show Concert No. 9 as being of unspecified music, with a conductor to be announced. The booking links still work and lead to unchanged pages with the Gothic still there, but this could well be an oversight. http://staatstheater-braunschweig.de/staatsorchester/sinfoniekonzerte/. We will keep you updated as we get more news."

I already have my tickets. And booked a hotel.

Me too. We'll wait and see.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 08, 2015, 12:55:14 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 04, 2015, 08:36:52 AM
Have ordered the Naxos Symphony 6 etc. Can't wait!
I see you also like Bliss. A man of good taste.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 08, 2015, 01:32:55 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 08, 2015, 12:55:14 AM
I see you also like Bliss. A man of good taste.  :D

OT:

Thank you  :)

I like Bliss very much, especially Morning Heroes, Meditations on a Theme by John Blow, the Oboe Quintet, both piano concertos and 'Things to Come'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 08, 2015, 11:21:52 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 07, 2015, 07:42:15 AM
Got this from the HBS a few moments ago:

"We have some unfortunate news related to the performances of the Gothic symphony that were noted in the recent newsletter.

The Braunschweig website pages have been changed to remove references to the Gothic, and now simply show Concert No. 9 as being of unspecified music, with a conductor to be announced. The booking links still work and lead to unchanged pages with the Gothic still there, but this could well be an oversight. http://staatstheater-braunschweig.de/staatsorchester/sinfoniekonzerte/. We will keep you updated as we get more news."

I already have my tickets. And booked a hotel.
Oh no! :o You must be on the edge of your metaphorical seat?!! What could have happened! It's like one of those old cinema style cliffhangers....will the Gothic be performed or not?! Has the dreaded Brian jinx struck again?!!

There has to be (will be,obviously) some simple explanation..........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 09, 2015, 09:47:46 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 08, 2015, 11:21:52 AM
Oh no! :o You must be on the edge of your metaphorical seat?!! What could have happened! It's like one of those old cinema style cliffhangers....will the Gothic be performed or not?! Has the dreaded Brian jinx struck again?!!

There has to be (will be,obviously) some simple explanation..........
If I were a betting man, which I'm not, I guess they have had trouble recruiting a choir of sufficient numbers or getting enough rehearsal time. The orchestral parts are easy enough so that's all I can presume. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. Great shame.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 09, 2015, 09:48:55 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 09, 2015, 09:47:46 AM
If I were a betting man, which I'm not, I guess they have had trouble recruiting a choir of sufficient numbers or getting enough rehearsal time. The orchestral parts are easy enough so that's all I can presume. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. Great shame.


Gothic Without Words!

Nah, that wouldn't work...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 09, 2015, 09:57:29 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 09, 2015, 09:47:46 AMIf I were a betting man, which I'm not, I guess they have had trouble recruiting a choir of sufficient numbers or getting enough rehearsal time. The orchestral parts are easy enough so that's all I can presume. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. Great shame.

I wrote them. In my best German (you can judge for yourselves: it's like my best English  ;D), but am still waiting for a reply.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 11, 2015, 04:48:10 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 07, 2015, 07:42:15 AM
Got this from the HBS a few moments ago:

"We have some unfortunate news related to the performances of the Gothic symphony that were noted in the recent newsletter.

The Braunschweig website pages have been changed to remove references to the Gothic, and now simply show Concert No. 9 as being of unspecified music, with a conductor to be announced. The booking links still work and lead to unchanged pages with the Gothic still there, but this could well be an oversight. http://staatstheater-braunschweig.de/staatsorchester/sinfoniekonzerte/. We will keep you updated as we get more news."

I already have my tickets. And booked a hotel.
I just looked,via the link,and Concert 9 seems to have replaced with music by other composers!! ??? :( The update on the HBS website is not exactly cheering! (According to the committee)  "It is therefore probable that the performances will not now take place". !! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 11, 2015, 05:06:11 AM
Thanks. That new concert isn't too bad.That symphony by Gorecki is wonderful, and so is Mahler's Adagio from Symphony No. 10.  sister and I still intend to go to Braunschweig. A short trip, which will include a visit to a nearby village where my favourite post-war German writer lived... But I wonder if my Gothic tickets are valid for that new concert, too?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 11, 2015, 07:33:42 AM
Well,you might as well go! The Gorecki will seem a little pared down in comparison to the Gothic Symphony! ;D 
This isn't unprecedented,of course,is it? The history of Brian is full of disappointments like this;but some successes as well! On a positive note,it shows the interest that is out there. Maybe they bit off more than they could chew?! And,not wanting to sound ungrateful;but why does it always have to be the Gothic! If I had a symphony orchestra at my disposal,the third symphony would be at the top of my list! But I suppose there is the notoriety of the Gothic and the attention it could bring to an orchestra like this. Look at at the way the tickets sold out for that Prom! They must have been thinking of that!
I still wish they'd do it though! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 11, 2015, 01:45:36 PM
At least it was not replaced by Wagner's 'The Flying Dutchman' as that would have really rubbed it in to two of our HB enthusiasts.

Sorry  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 11, 2015, 01:49:08 PM
Ha!

(Listening to Myaskovsky as it happens, Symphony No. 27...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 11, 2015, 02:32:37 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 11, 2015, 01:49:08 PM
Ha!

(Listening to Myaskovsky as it happens, Symphony No. 27...)

Wonderful work, especially the slow movement. NM was dying when he wrote it - I find it very moving. Which recording?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 11, 2015, 02:34:23 PM
Svetlanov, State Academia Orchestra. Myaskovsky is a wonderful composer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 11, 2015, 03:08:23 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 11, 2015, 02:34:23 PM
Svetlanov, State Academia Orchestra. Myaskovsky is a wonderful composer.

Great performance - the first one I knew, although Gauk's premiere recording is even more moving and typically not on CD  >:(

The last movement always sounds to me like the return of Spring after Winter, even though Miaskovsky knew that he would not live to see it. A wonderfully affirmative way to end his last symphony.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 11, 2015, 03:12:43 PM
He also places himself firmly in the Russian tradition in that final testament. You can hear the spirit of Tchaikovsky.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 11, 2015, 03:30:55 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 11, 2015, 03:12:43 PM
He also places himself firmly in the Russian tradition in that final testament. You can hear the spirit of Tchaikovsky.

Yes, I agree. A performance of the Pathetique Symphony made the young NM want to become a composer and had a huge influence on him.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 13, 2015, 02:35:15 AM
Miaskovsky. I have to admit that I haven't heard a single note. What's it like? If it's highly emotional like Tchaikovsky I might just run a mile.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 13, 2015, 04:56:57 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on March 13, 2015, 02:35:15 AM
Miaskovsky. I have to admit that I haven't heard a single note. What's it like? If it's highly emotional like Tchaikovsky I might just run a mile.

Minus the naggy moaning.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on March 13, 2015, 09:35:36 AM
Miaskovsky is one of the world's greatest symphonists.  At first it sounds all a bit monochrome and difficult to distinguish one symphony from another (dare I say it, like initial reactions to HB?) but once you get into the style it gets under your skin.  I'd start listening with Symphonies 6, 10, 25 or 27.  27 is a wonderful piece and may be the best of them, which suggests he might have still improved with age.  There was a great LP conducted by Morton Gould on which it was coupled with Rimsky-Korsakov's "Antar" which was always  one of my favourites.  Not sure it's been bettered.

And back to Brian,  I see the English Music Festival is doing the Third English Suite in its opening concert in May: http://www.englishmusicfestival.org.uk/programme.html
Is anyone going?  As it's a BBC orchestra, I think this means it will be broadcast (live?) as the earlier English Music Festival performances of Reverie from English Suite 5 and Shadow Dance from The Tigers were put out on BBC Radio 3.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 13, 2015, 01:30:08 PM
I thought I was in the Myaskovsky thread for a moment! ;D I love Tchaikovsky's music,by the way;although I did go off it for a while! Incidentally,which is it? Myaskovsky or Miaskovsky? I should know!! :-[ And John;I'm sure I downloaded those Morton Gould performances of R-K's Antar (I'm a big fan of that one!) Myaskovsky (or Miaskovsky) from Klassik Haus? If you haven't heard it No 21 won't take you long.....and don't worry;it's not a bit like Gliere or Khatchaturian!! ;D It's about as concise as they come!!
Augustus,I hope you're right about the Brian being broadcast! I wonder if the recent Testament release of The Tigers might persuade the BBC to repeat the broadcast?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 13, 2015, 01:35:41 PM
Incidentally,I bought the Groves emi recording of Caractacus off ebay today for £1.49! Free post! Condition,"Very good"! ??? Is that a low price,or what?!!!! Fingers crossed,it IS "Very good!" I've never heard the score,mind!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 13, 2015, 02:45:36 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 13, 2015, 01:35:41 PMIncidentally,I bought the Groves emi recording of Caractacus off ebay today for £1.49! Free post! Condition,"Very good"! ??? Is that a low price,or what?!!!! Fingers crossed,it IS "Very good!" I've never heard the score,mind!

£0.49 + £1.26 UK delivery Condition Used - Very Good -- by a well-known Amazon.co.uk seller, making £0.26 more in total. Okay, you win!  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 13, 2015, 03:30:38 PM
 :) Actually,not the one you are referring to! I gave up on them after receiving a few too many cds that looked like Torville & Dean had been skating on them!! Although,to be fair,they were always very prompt with apologies & refunds! I bought this off an ebay equivalent! I find them very good,unlike their Amazon counterpart! But £1.49?!!! What could I do? I had to buy it at that price! I just hope I don't get one of those emails I get now & again,saying that when they were packing the thing it didn't pass their "quality control!" Okay,fair enough! It shows they do inspect the things,but..... :(!!! As to the 26p! I hope they can find someting to spend it on! I can remember buying two packets of Golden Wonder crisps for that price!
Very nice with a glass of (late lamented) Corona Dandelion & Burdock pop!! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 13, 2015, 03:48:21 PM
Quote from: Christo on March 13, 2015, 02:45:36 PM
£0.49 + £1.26 UK delivery Condition Used - Very Good -- by a well-known Amazon.co.uk seller, making £0.26 more in total. Okay, you win!  :)
At least I hope not?! Unless they are leading a second life on ebay as a better seller,under a different name?!! ???
Surely Caractacus's life has to be worth more than £!.49?!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 14, 2015, 02:35:26 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 13, 2015, 01:30:08 PM
I thought I was in the Myaskovsky thread for a moment! ;D I love Tchaikovsky's music,by the way;although I did go off it for a while! Incidentally,which is it? Myaskovsky or Miaskovsky? I should know!! :-[ And John;I'm sure I downloaded those Morton Gould performances of R-K's Antar (I'm a big fan of that one!) Myaskovsky (or Miaskovsky) from Klassik Haus? If you haven't heard it No 21 won't take you long.....and don't worry;it's not a bit like Gliere or Khatchaturian!! ;D It's about as concise as they come!!
Augustus,I hope you're right about the Brian being broadcast! I wonder if the recent Testament release of The Tigers might persuade the BBC to repeat the broadcast?!
Yes it is a Klassic Haus job. Just checked. I will have a word with Curt and give it a try. I wasn't involved in that restoration. I also like the first movement of Antar. Thanks.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 14, 2015, 02:44:22 AM
Glad to be of help! My excuse for not exploring for Myaskovsky is as always......there's just so much! So,what am I doing in this thread?!! Erm?!!! I think I have heard a bit of No's 5 or 6,and they didn't make such an impression. I must admit I've been eyeing up the dvd box set of The Phil Silvers Show. The complete set of Myaskovsky symphonies or Bilko? Now which would I prefer? Myaskovsky doesn't make me laugh,though!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 14, 2015, 02:48:47 AM
Now let's stage it!"

A rave review of The Tigers here! :) Unfortunately,it's a Murdoch subscription site......but the reviews are usually very short & I think it's all there,really! ! Anyway,I have the Sunday Times on order,and when I collect it (next week,probably) there is a good chance the review will be in there. It's an old fashioned type small newsagent so I just go up there every few weeks! I get the local rag for Pembrokeshire,too. I can read up on who has beaten who in a drunken rage & the latest on wind turbine disputes. As the late Leonard Nimoy would say....."Fascinating!"

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/arts/music/albumreviews/article4331332.ece

Hope the link works!
Incidentally,after reading Christo's post;I found the 2 cd mode set of Henry Cowell's chamber music by the same seller I just slagged off (quite politely,I might add). This is deleted and only available at ridiculous prices from various sellers! What could I do?!!!

Currently,"Preparing for dispatch". I just don't learn.do I?!!! ??? :(
I'll get the sellotape ready.....just in case I have to post a return!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on March 14, 2015, 04:58:10 AM
That Times Tigers review is from Jan 24th.  It was posted here that day by Hattoff.  Have there been any other reviews yet other than The Times and The Guardian?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 14, 2015, 08:47:06 AM
Thank you,Augustus! Of course it was.....silly me!!! ??? ;D The worrying thing about this,apart from the fact that I didn't notice the b***** date,was the fact that there have been so few reviews since. Of course,there's still time!
Anyway,for anyone else who has been in a cave for the last couple of weeks,that's ONE rave review!
More please!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on March 15, 2015, 04:55:15 AM
Excuse this post which has nothing to do with Brian. I am merely sharing something with fellow enthusiasts for recorded music and maybe an interest in out of print vinyls. Rediscovery has opened their complete catalogue free of charge. These are vinyl restorations and they are high quality MP3s. There's no catch. I have all of them. I actually did a couple of the restorations. Very interesting stuff indeed.
Here's the main catalogue listing (which you had to purchase at one time):
http://www.rediscovery.us/list.html
Here's the list of titles that have always been free. Again there are some gems in here:
http://www.rediscovery.us/paperbacks.html
I hope you find something of interest. Try RD 144 - Gibson/Peer Gynt - for starters. Great disc from WRC and superb sound.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2015, 03:26:47 AM
Quote from: Christo on March 13, 2015, 02:45:36 PM
£0.49 + £1.26 UK delivery Condition Used - Very Good -- by a well-known Amazon.co.uk seller, making £0.26 more in total. Okay, you win!  :)
??? ;D Indeed! I received two 2cd sets from two 'different' sellers today! One selling on Amazon and the other on ebay. Both under different names!! And both,looking at the envelopes,sent from exactly the same address!!! Well,they certainly had me fooled,Christo! I would be annoyed,but over the last few months I have bought a veritable pile of cds from this 'other' seller on ebay;some of them hard to obtain cds,or usually out of print and over priced.....and all of them at very,very,very low prices indeed! When there has been a problem I have received a prompt email with a nice apology and,on return,an equally prompt refund! Complaining about being made a fool of in this instance would be a bit like complaining about a cold caller who put money into my bank! At any rate,I may have the last laugh,in a way,because I haven't actually left any feedback for them,yet!! I am aware that they also trade under the name of a certain well,known garden bird and that everytime I tried to sell a cd or dvd on Amazon they undercut me by at least 1p!!! :( ;D

Enjoying Caractacus,now! What a stirring score! I am ashamed to say I much prefer this to Gerontius. I have heard that Caractacus is a good one for people who don't enjoy the latter!
Now,let's see if they've got a cheap copy of Olaf?!! Oops,they got me again!! ??? :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2015, 03:49:52 AM
No! :( Thank goodness,in a way! But I see they have more £1.49 post free copies of Caractacus there. You could buy an armful at that price!! I just hope I won't be hearing the dreaded freezing/skipping sounds. It all looks in very good condition,though! The Henry Cowell 2cd mode set is deleted and usually goes for horribly high prices,so please....please, let it work properly! Again,it looks in very good condition.....and I've got a nice new (recently bought) mini hi-fi to play it on!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2015, 06:06:05 AM
Just saw the review of The Tigers Testament release on Musicweb. I've been offline for about three days,so I have an excuse for not having seen it....if everyone else has! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on March 18, 2015, 12:48:18 PM
Thanks, Cilgwyn.  That's a review that takes nearly as long to read as it does to listen to the opera!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 18, 2015, 01:24:11 PM
A link,if anyone hasn't read it!

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/Mar/Brian_tigers_SBT31496.htm

Hope that works,says the man who still uses a shortwave radio (it's on now,actually,complete with assorted atmospherics! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 18, 2015, 01:29:34 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 18, 2015, 01:24:11 PM
A link,if anyone hasn't read it!

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/Mar/Brian_tigers_SBT31496.htm

Hope that works,says the man who still uses a shortwave radio (it's on now,actually,complete with assorted atmospherics! ??? ;D

You may be a Luddite but the link works. Congratulations  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2015, 02:57:25 PM
Thanks, cilgwyn! I didn't have the time yet to read the review.  Quite a thorough affair! I learnt nothing new, but it was interesting to read about one listener's reaction to that amazing score.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 19, 2015, 03:11:49 AM
Yes,Musicweb seem to competing with IRR Magazine to see who can provide the longest review. Musicweb have also awarded it the title of Recording of the Month. I expected that,mind. It would be a bit strange if they didn't!! Incidentally,after the physical release of the new Naxos cd,I wonder if there are any other Havergal Brian recordings in the metaphorical pipeline? Someone 'out there' knows?!!! I do also have a certain sympathy for people who would like to see some other neglected British composers getting some attention. I see a recording of Ethel Smyth's The Boatswain's Mate is in the offing,thanks to funding. I may buy that one. It sounds more interesting than The Wreckers! An active society seems to be of help. The Rutland Boughton Trust managed to get a recording of The Queen of Cornwall off the ground. Holbrooke's got no one. Although,I know Gareth Vaughan has done allot. A cult following obviously helps! Are the Havergal Brian Society a cult?!! Sounds scary! Help!!! ??? ;D I was disappointed to see that a new initiative in Wales seems to be releasing music as downloads only! I don't want A download of Daniel Jones (I can get them at the AMF!) I want a cd!!! >:( ;D

As to being a luddite,Sarge! When I listen to Radio Australia,I want it to sound like it is coming from Australia! And what could kind of idiot listens to the BBC World Service online,in crystal clear sound (albeit,with the odd buffering!) when they can listen to it on a shortwave radio via a relay,thousands of miles away,on the rocky,volcanic island of Ascension,off the coast of Africa?!!! ;D

A pity about Deutsche Welle,though!! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on March 25, 2015, 02:03:24 AM
I was looking this morning to see if there were any reviews yet of the new Naxos disc and so Googled "havergal brian walker new russia naxos 6 28 28 31 review" and to my surprise this came up:
http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_cd_review.php?id=12729

It must be one of the most enthusiastic reviews for a new Brian disc ever!  If, as he says, the new recording of No.6 beats the Lyrita recording, the almost impossible must have been achieved.  Only a few more days to wait and we can hear for ourselves, but this really makes me want the days to pass until it arrives from Amazon.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2015, 02:34:38 AM
Robert Matthew-Walker is a Brian enthusiast of long standing.  He has written a fascinating memoir about his encounters with the great man. I bought a signed copy from him personally at a concert in Piccadilly in 1995 (where I met fellow-Dutchman and GMG member Christo for the first time, too). If Matthew-Walker is that positive, we're in for a treat!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on March 28, 2015, 02:50:39 AM
My copy of the new Brian has arrived.
How does Alexander Walker do it? What seemed dense and muddy now seems crisp and sharp and it makes a lot of difference.
The 6th is staggeringly beautiful notwithstanding the Russian brass which changes the sound world but feels good to me.
I only know No. 28 from hissy tapes and don't know it well but it comes over much, much better than I ever realised before.

Arrgh, my CD player is being fractious, I'll have to report on 29 and 31 later.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 28, 2015, 02:54:14 AM
Sounds good!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 28, 2015, 03:19:32 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2015, 02:34:38 AMRobert Matthew-Walker is a Brian enthusiast of long standing.  He has written a fascinating memoir about his encounters with the great man. I bought a signed copy from him personally at a concert in Piccadilly in 1995 (where I met fellow-Dutchman and GMG member Christo for the first time, too). If Matthew-Walker is that positive, we're in for a treat!

I too bought a copy with his signature at that memorable occasion. If he's sure that even this new recording of the Tragica 'has the edge' over the standard set by Myer Fredman and the LPO for Lyrita in the 1970s - a recording that was my first acquaintance with Brian'I've always cherished it - how could I resist?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 28, 2015, 04:15:20 AM
I just bought the album for download from ClassicsOnline. Will listen tomorrow...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 28, 2015, 09:45:32 AM
I just put my pc on and there's an email from Amazon telling me that my Brian cd has been despatched. Delivery estimate: Tuesday! Much as I loved the Lyrita recordings,I could have done without the Cooke! The reason why I never bought the actual physical cd release. I would have preferred just Brian 6 & 16,even if it meant a shorter playing time. It will be great to finally have a really first class performance of the Sixth on an all Brian cd.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 28, 2015, 10:08:16 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 28, 2015, 09:45:32 AMMuch as I loved the Lyrita recordings,I could have done without the Cooke!

Cooke's short Third Symphony (1967) is actually quite good, as many already observed before, with an impressive and beautiful central lento. I already loved the old Lyrita LP with it and was very happy to see it revived on this CD. I regard Cooke's symphonies one of the 'greatest' (whatever that means) of all forgotten cycles. The 1947 First, on another al all-Cooke Lyrita CD, is very fine, too.l
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 28, 2015, 12:38:53 PM
I wasn't knocking Cooke,Christo;I just like Brian with Brian! I know that some people enjoyed the combination,or,at least,it didn't put them off. Anyway,the problem is easily solved,these days,with a download and a cd-r;which was certainly my solution. That said,I can't deny that I am looking forward to being able to listen to the Sixth on a good 'old fashioned' all-Brian cd!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 28, 2015, 08:05:05 PM
Those intending to download the new album form Classicsonline had better do it soon. As I understand the speil at the site come 1 April the site will be replaced with a new site where you will only be able to buy FLACs starting at $10.99, rather than MP3s starting at $6.99.

This is a bit annoying as I am one of those luddites who can't tell the difference between MP3s and FLACs on MP3 players, and I can see my days of happy splurging on Classicsonline are over.

(Even if I did buy FLACs I'd have to convert them to MP3s to load on to my iPod, otherwise it'll get full too quickly (already have three on the go).

Oh, and with our wretched internet I'd have to wait hours for the downloads.

Sigh.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2015, 04:09:24 AM
Interesting post! Maybe I'll skip the expensive FLACS from now on?!
Incidentally,here's another luddite,who likes listening to Radio Australia...still on shortwave,on 12065khz! I'm hoping BST will let me listen till nearly 10pm,from tonight. I'll get the whole of Pacific Beat in the week (instead of just the first 54 mins) before they change frequency!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 29, 2015, 11:30:01 AM
Actually I won't.....but I'll be able to listen later (get it right man! ::) ;D) which will be very nice! :)
Now,with a bit of luck the Brian cd will be here on Tuesday! Monday,if I'm very lucky! I've also got Honegger,Roussel,Raff and Spohr cds in the post! :) Really into Honegger and Roussel at the moment!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2015, 11:49:40 AM
I have listened to the CD... I don't have the time to write a detailed review. So I'll be brief. It's terrific. The two standouts, for me, are symphonies 28 and 29. The performances are nothing short of revelatory. I have come to the conclusion that symphonies 27-32 are as impressive in their own way as 6-12. No. 28 almost sounds like a completely new work, after Stokowski's distortion. The final few minutes are incredible - like an apocalyptic Chinese New Year, with all those pentatonic explosions. No 29 is taken much more slowly than the Mackerras, and the work gains in stature. At first I found the ponderousness in the opening allegro a bit disconcerting, until I found it made sense and that an enormous amount of detail could now be heard for the first time. And the slowness also works miracles in the final movement, with its out-of-this-world coda. Very impressive. What about 6 and 31? I think they're equal to the performances we already have. Walker's tempi are fascinating. He really understands this music. With the other Walker (Gary) and Martyn Brabbins we Brianites now enjoy  the unprecedented luxury of having three excellent Brian conductors. Happy days!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on March 30, 2015, 02:39:53 AM
My copy arrived this morning but I've only had time to listen to No.6: the playing and pacing is superb and with Naxos's worldwide distribution should win many new friends for what IMHO is one of Brian's finest scores. The other symphonies will have to wait until this evening, unfortunately!

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 30, 2015, 05:13:04 AM
Unfortunately my copy has gone to the school where I work (an essential component of my 'smuggle into the house' arrangements) and I am now on holiday for three weeks. I will have to go in to pick it up.  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 30, 2015, 05:38:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 30, 2015, 05:13:04 AM
Unfortunately my copy has gone to the school where I work (an essential component of my 'smuggle into the house' arrangements) and I am now on holiday for three weeks. I will have to go in to pick it up.  8)

Priceless.

Sorry, Jeffrey, but I cannot help but grin.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 30, 2015, 05:47:20 AM
My safe warehouse is across the oceans and takes an international flight to retrieve!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 30, 2015, 05:50:11 AM
😅
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 30, 2015, 05:50:56 AM
The things we do for Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 30, 2015, 05:55:58 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 30, 2015, 05:50:56 AM
The things we do for Brian.

My plan is to get the CD before I reach the age of the composer when he composed the works...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 30, 2015, 06:03:42 AM
Lots of time left then, young 'un.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on March 30, 2015, 09:21:42 AM
Having completed my listening, this is one of the best-played Brian recordings in the discography - 6 and 31 are spot-on but, as JH says, 28 is a revelation, reminding me of Vaughan Williams' description regarding his own 8th as containing "all the 'phones and 'spiels known to the composer" and in the process consigning Stokowki's wayward balance-misjudged 'interpretation' to the dustbin.

I have no problems at all, either, with Walker's more sedate tempi in 29: everything seems to flow so naturally from the first bar to the last and there is so much more orchestral detail to relish. This is even finer than the Naxos 22-24 and must count as one of the recordings of the year.

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 30, 2015, 09:30:01 AM
Thanks, Albion, for confirming my first impressions. I have had the CD on a loop, and my enthusiasm is undimmed. One thing I want to add - the trumpet solos in the Tragica have so much presence, I almost felt as if Petrushka had been resurrected in a Celtic setting.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: jon rady on March 30, 2015, 11:33:04 AM
 :)Hi, I am new to this site so please forgive any faux pas, and me going on for too long.  I have ordered this recording and am looking forward to it immensely, particularly after seeing the last posts.  I have been a Havergal Brian fan off and on since the first broadcast of Symphony 28 on BBC Radio 3, back in the late 1970s? (sorry I would have to look it up to be precise), when I was completely intrigued by this new sound world (Stokowski's exaggerations of the score notwithstanding, which I knew nothing about then of course).  I rather lost touch with Brian's music for a long time - I was a member of the HBS for some years in the 1980's, but sort of gave up due to the seeming lack of progress in any way regarding performances/recordings etc, that is until Brabbins Gothic Prom performance (not at the performance unfortunately) made me realise what I'd been missing and that maybe something was actually happening.

Also, I can't believe I have missed this website before – nearly 400 pages of comment/discussion!  I have only managed to go through a small part of it, but eventually felt compelled to join in.  The last few recordings of Brian's works have been magnificent.  We now have at least two contemporary conductors, Brabbins, and Alexander Walker in particular, as well as a few others (and I add, their orchestras), who understand this music.  I am not denigrating their illustrious predecessors such as Fredman and Friend, but these recent recordings just seem on a different level (technically and artistically) to what has mostly been produced before.  I always used to prefer the early symphony's (apart from 28), but after repeated listening to Brabbins 19, 27, the Concerto for Orchestra etc, and Walkers 22-24, I am finding myself thinking these later works are even finer –the English Suites are not bad either, though at the other end of the timescale.  I used to think Fredman's Symphony 6 could not be bettered, but now am not so sure (we will see when I get the Naxos recording).

Part of HB's problem has always been the players and conductors uncertainty about the music and often just bad recordings.  I'm sorry if anyone has posted this link before but this was a very illuminating (and interesting) consideration of various performances of The Gothic and recordings of it, by one of the sound engineers at Brisbane, which makes many good points I think, even if I don't understand all the technical stuff – those who judge a new work to them by one performance or recording please take note:

https://sites.google.com/site/recordingmaninoz/gothicreview

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 30, 2015, 12:39:27 PM
Mine is in the post,as you know;but I have listened to the samples on Amazon and those trumpets really are arresting. They have a completely different sound to the ones in the Lyrita recording. I can't wait to hear more!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 30, 2015, 11:45:20 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 30, 2015, 05:38:07 AM
Priceless.

Sorry, Jeffrey, but I cannot help but grin.

Yes, I guess that it's karma Johan.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 30, 2015, 11:47:42 PM
Quote from: jon rady on March 30, 2015, 11:33:04 AM
:)Hi, I am new to this site so please forgive any faux pas, and me going on for too long.  I have ordered this recording and am looking forward to it immensely, particularly after seeing the last posts.  I have been a Havergal Brian fan off and on since the first broadcast of Symphony 28 on BBC Radio 3, back in the late 1970s? (sorry I would have to look it up to be precise), when I was completely intrigued by this new sound world (Stokowski's exaggerations of the score notwithstanding, which I knew nothing about then of course).  I rather lost touch with Brian's music for a long time - I was a member of the HBS for some years in the 1980's, but sort of gave up due to the seeming lack of progress in any way regarding performances/recordings etc, that is until Brabbins Gothic Prom performance (not at the performance unfortunately) made me realise what I'd been missing and that maybe something was actually happening.

Also, I can't believe I have missed this website before – nearly 400 pages of comment/discussion!  I have only managed to go through a small part of it, but eventually felt compelled to join in.  The last few recordings of Brian's works have been magnificent.  We now have at least two contemporary conductors, Brabbins, and Alexander Walker in particular, as well as a few others (and I add, their orchestras), who understand this music.  I am not denigrating their illustrious predecessors such as Fredman and Friend, but these recent recordings just seem on a different level (technically and artistically) to what has mostly been produced before.  I always used to prefer the early symphony's (apart from 28), but after repeated listening to Brabbins 19, 27, the Concerto for Orchestra etc, and Walkers 22-24, I am finding myself thinking these later works are even finer –the English Suites are not bad either, though at the other end of the timescale.  I used to think Fredman's Symphony 6 could not be bettered, but now am not so sure (we will see when I get the Naxos recording).

Part of HB's problem has always been the players and conductors uncertainty about the music and often just bad recordings.  I'm sorry if anyone has posted this link before but this was a very illuminating (and interesting) consideration of various performances of The Gothic and recordings of it, by one of the sound engineers at Brisbane, which makes many good points I think, even if I don't understand all the technical stuff – those who judge a new work to them by one performance or recording please take note:

https://sites.google.com/site/recordingmaninoz/gothicreview

Welcome to this group and thanks for the interesting post. I share your view of the Fredman recording but, as you say, we will see! I really look forward to hearing the new recording on Naxos. I very much like Fredman's Bax recordings on Lyrita too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 31, 2015, 12:04:18 AM
Welcome, Jon! And don't feel inhibited. When you have ploughed through all these pages, you'll have noticed we aren't always on topic and not always serious. Sometimes even other composers than Brian get a mention... I agree with your view of the later symphonies. Brian's great achievement in his final composing years is becoming clearer by the day thanks  to all those fine recordings in glorious sound. I am especially grateful to Alexander Walker for his interpretation of No. 29: I always found this work a bit disappointing after all the praise Malcolm MacDonald heaped on it. Now I know Mackerras didn't do the work full justice. Tempo is key in Brian. The more performances we get  of individual works, the better we can compare and see what tempo works and what doesn't.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 31, 2015, 07:44:03 AM
Thanks, cilgwyn! Read it. Guy Rickards, the writer of this review, is a Brian veteran of long standing...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 31, 2015, 08:34:31 AM
I thought the name rang a bell! (Which seems somehow,appropriate). A nice review. It would have probably earned an entire page,minus the pretty pictures,in it's heyday! I think there is a slight improvement under the new owners;but it's still the sort of Magazine you might pick up for a train journey! Alas!! Wierd paper,too,and £5.50!! I could have bought another Naxos cd!! ;D

I am listening to the new Brian cd now! It dropped through the letterbox this morning. Those trumpets really grab your ears. Startling different to the ones on the Lyrita recording. I suppose I've got to be alone in this,but I found the unleashing of all that pent up violence (at least,initially) less startling than in the old Lyrita performance. I was expecting more of an eruption. Of course,I'm probably just used to the old recording and trying to find something to moan about in a marvelous recording. The superb recording quality and the impact of the percussion and all the detail I can hear now,more than makes up for any initial misgivings. The end seems truly inexorable. If only Brian had been able to make an opera out of this......and better still,as well;because I suppose we wouldn't have had this symphony,then! Oh,and I love the couplings,too. I really am looking forward to a time when I can put a whole stack of the later symphonies,as recorded by Naxos and Dutton, on to some cdr's and hear them,one after the other,in their rightful order!
No,don't get me wrong,this is an excellent recording. It seems like a golden age has opened up in terms of interpretations of Brian's music. A pity about Braunschweig,though! :(
I hope this team bring us more Brian! Imagine that sound you hear in the Sinfonia Tragica in the Battle scherzo of the Second Symphony?! It could be so thrilling!
Incidentally,why did the original Marco Polo cycle really grind to a halt. I heard it was because the 'other' symphonies weren't as popular as the Gothic. Or was it the quality of the performances (or lack of?) and the,often dry,boxy recordings themselves? Or was it all of these? I know Naxos,more or less,abandoned the Marco Polo label itself,in the end. Maybe,it just wasn't the right time for this music,either? The superb Dutton and the Second Volume of the Toccata cds (the first one suffering from dry sound) really opening up the beauty and quality of Brian's later music. And one last point. I wonder how many times an abandoned recording project has been continued by the same label (albeit under a different name) after such a long gap? If I recall correctly,the Brian society were talking about a complete (or near?) cycle? It just seemed to dry up. Everyone thought it was dead and buried,and now this? As if the Brian Phoenix has arisen from the ashes....in even greater splendour and even more spectacular plumage than before!!! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 31, 2015, 09:52:40 AM
Last edit! All I did was take a bracket out!! ???
That aside,I have just bought the Testament release of The Tigers from Presto,for £29.50 (inc p & P). That will be my last cd purchase for a while;although I have pre-ordered the recent Cpo recording of the final release in their Spohr symphony cycle. Can't resist that,unfortunately,for my wallet! Other than it will have to be something pretty amazing to make me spend any more;although,as I said in an earlier post,I've got cds of Honegger,Roussel,Spohr and Raff symphonies in the post! ::)

Oh and,welcome to the Havergal Brian thread,jon! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on April 01, 2015, 01:17:19 AM
I've now listened a few times to the new Naxos disc and am very impressed.  At first I was thrown a bit by that Russian trumpet in No.6 but after a few hearings the new performance just seems so right.  The slow movement of No.28 is beautiful.  It manages to be slightly understated and emotionally intense at the same time and I'm not sure how Brian manages to do the two things at once. 

In all, the last two Brian issues have been among the very best of all Brian discs and with their run of symphonies 27, 28 & 29 have all but closed up that big gap of 26-29 there was in available recordings of the late pieces.

On another tack, has anyone ever noticed a little oversight in Dutton's usually fine editing, at the end of their recording of the Concerto for Orchestra?  If you listen at fairly high volume, in the silence just after the piece finishes a violin plays a couple of random notes before the track fades to silence.  I'm surprised that wasn't picked up during the editing. I'm sure it could have been easily snipped out.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 01, 2015, 01:45:27 AM
Yes, I have noticed, too. Another strange glitch is on Dutton's latest Brian CD. There seems to be some sort of interference by a telephone at the end of the slow movement of Symphony No. 19, if I remember correctly. And to continue nitpicking, something goes awry in the Tragica in the exciting passage in the final movement with the great sinuous melody after that battering ostinato. When the melody gets to its lowest notes, the horns fluff it...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: jon rady on April 01, 2015, 11:01:58 AM
I have listened to a few bars of those trumpets on iplayer.  Astounding.  Whether that was what Brian intended is another matter. But I can't imagine he would have complained.  And it seems to add to the greatness of the work whether intended or not.  But I will know if it works when I get the full thing.  Not long to go ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on April 01, 2015, 12:42:06 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 01, 2015, 01:45:27 AMYes, I have noticed, too. Another strange glitch is on Dutton's latest Brian CD. There seems to be some sort of interference by a telephone at the end of the slow movement of Symphony No. 19, if I remember correctly.

That was me calling Dutton to let them know that I'd found the full scores of The Vision of Cleopatra, Hero and Leander, English Suite No.2 and Prometheus Unbound in my granny's old commode...

(http://www.reemandansie.com/images/uploads/6901/1341.jpg)

???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 01, 2015, 01:09:24 PM
😂
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 01, 2015, 02:36:31 PM
The new Naxos disk arrived in the post this morning, just in time for listneing over the Easter weekend.

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 01, 2015, 03:54:57 PM
Excellent!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 01, 2015, 09:58:45 PM
I've now retrieved my copy from my place of employment.  ::)

Look forward to hearing it later today.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 02, 2015, 02:34:32 AM
The Testament release of The Tigers is on the way. I got an email from Presto informing me that it has been despatched. I would have liked to have bought from the Testament 'shop',but I've spent too much already,and my electricity supplier has just contacted me!! ??? :(
Good new about those releases of off air recordings by Lyrita,over at the AMF forum. It isn't music that I'm particularly into;but it is enterprising and it will be nice for Malcolm Lipkin. As I know from bitter experience,creativity is hard work. Not like breaking rocks in a quarry,or working in a steelyard,of course.....just in a different kind of way!
Going back to the new Naxos recording. Quite frankly,any grumbling about the new recording of the Sixth does seem like nit-picking. All things considered,it is a fantastic recording in every possible way;as are the performances of the other symphonies. Real eye,or should I say,ear openers.....oh,and mind openers too!! And that Russian sound. It has me wondering what the great Svetlanov would have done with these scores. Not so polished....but it's not just about that is it?
I did grumble about the old Marco Polo releases,I'll admit. Very ungrateful,but I absolutely hated them all.........although,I do rather like their Das Siegeslied (if like is the right word for that score?) and the choirs in their recording of the Gothic were very good indeed. I just didn't like the conducting! Still,each to his own. And could I do any better? No,I can just about play chopsticks!! So,more fool me!! :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 02, 2015, 02:42:38 AM
Agreed. Any criticisms you might level at the new Tragica pale in comparison with everything that it accomplishes. We can be very happy, indeed! There have been worse times for us Brianites, when there was simply nothing at all to rejoice (or carp, for that matter) about!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 02, 2015, 02:57:21 PM
My 6/28/29/31 arrived today. (Yeah!!!) For some reason, it still isn't available at Amazon DE. Had to order it from the UK. Looking forward to those trumpets  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 02, 2015, 03:45:30 PM
It's very difficult to review a disk when you start off saying 10/10, but it would be churlish not to say at once that the new Andrew Walker Brian disk is 10/10 and should win more converts to Brian.

Listening to this disk last night made me reach for other Brian recordings and I stayed up late making comparisons and listening to the surrounding symphonies. Nos 6 and 31 are amazing performances, I don't think they're better than the Fredman* or Groves recordings, but they're more modern and they're different accounts. The No.6 is much more outgoing and bright than the Fredman recording, and this isn't just because the recording is more modern: the Fredman is inward looking, it's like reading the tragedy of Deirdre, whereas Walker's is wild and extrovert, and it's like being part of the tragedy. The Walker and the Groves 31 I found more similar, just the more recent recording giving this account the edge.

No 28 is like listening to the work for the first time. Suddenly we have a new Brian symphony, and a wonderfully strange one. It's remarkable how different all the Brian symphonies without any of them being unBrianic. I hope Walker will tackle No.26 next, another strange little symphony that we don't really have a proper account of.

And finally No.29, it too is like listening to the symphony for the first time, the slower tempi sound absolutely right and the ending (the coda to the finale) is wonderfully luminous and mysterious, like nothing else in Brian, or in music anywhere, but only Brian could have written it. It's now clear that the Mackerras recording was too fast in the first and last movements.

* I only just found out that Myer Fredman passed away in July last year. Farewell maestro and thanks for the recordings.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 03, 2015, 01:39:49 AM
Have just listened to No.6 and entirely agree with Calyptorhynchus above. It was a riveting performance and I loved the much clearer brass fanfares towards the start. Wonderful to rediscover this great work - undoubtedly one of Brian's greatest, especially in this performance. Will need to listen to it again before going on to 28,29 and 31. Also, I love the bronze bust of Havergal Brian by  the Welsh sculptor Robert Thomas (the dedicatee of Symphony 29) on the front cover of the Naxos CD:
[asin]B00U2OT186[/asin]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2015, 04:22:06 AM
Just listened to the CD again, and it occurred to me just how miraculous the Tragica is: here is a man, retired, 72 years old, unperformed, and he writes this utterly original and fresh work with which he seems to reinvent himself... ('Seems', because we don't know Prometheus Unbound.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on April 03, 2015, 05:39:09 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2015, 04:22:06 AMJust listened to the CD again, and it occurred to me just how miraculous the Tragica is: here is a man, retired, 72 years old, unperformed, and he writes this utterly original and fresh work with which he seems to reinvent himself... ('Seems', because we don't know Prometheus Unbound.)

Very sorry for asking again: I know of course that the massive score Prometheus Unbound went lost, but missed the story about how that could happen. Where can it possibly be?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on April 03, 2015, 07:04:15 AM
Quote from: Christo on April 03, 2015, 05:39:09 AM
Very sorry for asking again: I know of course that the massive score Prometheus Unbound went lost, but missed the story about how that could happen. Where can it possibly be?

It is a little known fact that before the score was lost, it was known as "Prometheus Bound".



Now, that would have been so much more effective on April First... Just missed it...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 03, 2015, 07:21:01 AM
Quote from: springrite on April 03, 2015, 07:04:15 AM
It is a little known fact that before the score was lost, it was known as "Prometheus Bound".

;D :D ;D

Yep, Havergal should have tied those knots tighter.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2015, 07:32:12 AM
Very droll, Mr Springrite...

If I remember correctly, the full score was with Brian's publisher. When, a decade or more later, he asked for it, they couldn't find it. All we are left with is the vocal score.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 03, 2015, 08:22:34 AM
http://recordreview.co.uk/index.php

Hope the link works!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2015, 08:39:49 AM
The link works fine. I get a page telling me that due to the death of IRR's proprietor, the magazine is now insolvent...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 03, 2015, 08:41:38 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 03, 2015, 08:22:34 AM
http://recordreview.co.uk/index.php

Hope the link works!

Very sorry to read of this. It was an excellent serious publication.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 03, 2015, 08:44:07 AM
Well, I have greatly enjoyed Symphony 28, especially the last two movements. I fact I enjoyed this work more and more as it progressed. As it stands it is now my favourite of the later symphonies along with No.22. I am now listening to it again.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on April 03, 2015, 08:45:05 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2015, 08:39:49 AM
The link works fine. I get a page telling me that due to death of IRR's proprietor, the magazine is now insolvent...

IRR Unbound  :'(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2015, 08:51:14 AM
Yes, a pity. It's irreplaceable. I didn't read it, but I understood its significance.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 03, 2015, 08:52:00 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 03, 2015, 08:44:07 AM
Well, I have greatly enjoyed Symphony 28, especially the last two movements. I fact I enjoyed this work more and more as it progressed. As it stands it is now my favourite of the later symphonies along with No.22. I am now listening to it again.

Good to hear!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on April 03, 2015, 04:06:28 PM
My Testament CD of Brian's opera, "The Tigers" finally come today and I absolutely love it!!  I highly recommend it for those who enjoy his middle period.  I think the opening to CD 3 "Gargoyles" should be made into a stand alone piece, it is so evocative and brilliant.  This is my best 2015 CD purchase so far.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on April 04, 2015, 02:05:41 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 03, 2015, 04:06:28 PM
My Testament CD of Brian's opera, "The Tigers" finally come today and I absolutely love it!!  I highly recommend it for those who enjoy his middle period.  I think the opening to CD 3 "Gargoyles" should be made into a stand alone piece, it is so evocative and brilliant.  This is my best 2015 CD purchase so far.

Brian intended that "Gargoyles" could be performed separately or as one of the Symphonic Dances he extracted from the opera.  However, I do think it should always be performed with the following "Lacryma" as they are two complementary parts of the Act III ballet.  If you haven't got it, the Heritage Records disc of the six orchestral "Tigers" pieces is remarkably good and, if anything, "Gargoyles" and "Lacryma" are more affecting there than in the full opera recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 04, 2015, 10:58:36 AM
Quote from: Augustus on April 04, 2015, 02:05:41 AM
Brian intended that "Gargoyles" could be performed separately or as one of the Symphonic Dances he extracted from the opera.  However, I do think it should always be performed with the following "Lacryma" as they are two complementary parts of the Act III ballet. If you haven't got it, the Heritage Records disc of the six orchestral "Tigers" pieces is remarkably good and, if anything, "Gargoyles" and "Lacryma" are more affecting there than in the full opera recording.
I fully endorse this. Excellent CD.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 07, 2015, 02:23:18 AM
I must admit I was slightly dubious about how good the Testament release of The Tigers would sound in comparison to my downloads of the opera. Naturally,I expected some improvement,but not this good?!! It sounds like one of those characters in the tv ads,like Mr Sheen for example,or a Mrs Mop,has been scrubbing and polishing it with all the best cleaning fluids and cloths she's got in her cupboard. It also reminds me of those observations about a 'veil being removed' (or something like that?) when the first commercial cds were released. To get to the point ;D the sound picture absolutely sparkles.There is a crystal clear clarity and immediacy to it which I never found on the cdr's or cassette copies I owned. In fact,like the recent recording of the 'Wine of Summer,the work itself sounds even more convincing than it did before. Indeed,for the first time,this opera,which I did actually love before,does actually sound like the eccentric masterpiece some claim it to be. Not that I'm saying it is (I do,really! ;D) but listening to this recording has seen most of my previous reservations dwindle away. I think this really would be an opera worth staging,indeed! But the staging would have to be very good. A botched job could be a disaster,I fear!
I do also think that if you love all of Brian's music,this 'off-air' release is a must have. Even more so than the Testament or Hyperion Gothics. Add to that,the superb presentation,the excellent article by MM,the notes and libretto with nice,bold,legible type for people like me,of a certain age ???,who have to swap glasses to read. Also,a  nice slimline case;although be careful not to break it,as it's not the regular kind. Presto packed it up very securely indeed. The package too big for the letterbox,but the postman would have had to throw it on the ground,jump up and down on it,or reverse his van over it to break the contents. Well done! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 07, 2015, 02:28:04 AM
You're a cruel man, cilgwyn.  ;)

* looking at his bank balance *
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on April 07, 2015, 11:14:23 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 07, 2015, 02:23:18 AM
To get to the point ;D the sound picture absolutely sparkles.There is a crystal clear clarity and immediacy to it which I never found on the cdr's or cassette copies I owned. In fact,like the recent recording of the 'Wine of Summer,the work itself sounds even more convincing than it did before. Indeed,for the first time,this opera,which I did actually love before,does actually sound like the eccentric masterpiece some claim it to be. Not that I'm saying it is (I do,really! ;D) but listening to this recording has seen most of my previous reservations dwindle away.

I have to agree.  I really found the sound on this issue to be a revelation because of its startling clarity.  Don't for one minute think that if you have an off-air recording that it can compare with this version that seems to have gone right back to the original BBC recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 08, 2015, 01:35:46 AM
Indeed! This confirmed cynic was very surprised indeed by the superiority of the sound to any off air tape or download!!!! ???
That said:

"Get your lovely Testament Tigers cd set
On sale at your preferred classical music retailer today
Get your lovely Testament Tigers cd set
On sale at you preferred.........etc,etc!"

(In loud street vendor tones)

You know you want it!!! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on April 08, 2015, 01:51:42 AM
Let me check my budget again!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on April 08, 2015, 12:04:58 PM
I have it on the good authority of several costermongers, an old clothes seller, a toyseller, a sweetmeat seller and a fruit seller that you should "Buy, Buy. Buy!" ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 08, 2015, 12:07:22 PM
😆
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 08, 2015, 03:36:24 PM
By the way!
Has any one here seen Kelly?!! :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on April 08, 2015, 05:19:36 PM
Quote from: Augustus on April 08, 2015, 12:04:58 PM
I have it on the good authority of several costermongers, an old clothes seller, a toyseller, a sweetmeat seller and a fruit seller that you should "Buy, Buy. Buy!" ;D

Talk about consensus among people of ultimate authority! Wow!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: jon rady on April 15, 2015, 10:51:18 AM
Having listened to Walker's symphony's 28 etc a few times I can only say this is great.  I now like Symphony 29 (and perhaps 31 - nees mor listening.   At first I thought the pace was a bit lumbering, but its grown on me immensely.  Majestic.  No 28 was always a favourite since I first heard it on Radio 3 back in the 1970's?.  I still think Stokowski has the edge at certain points but this new performance seems much more cohesive but the strangeness is still there. And the orchestration is quite delicate (mostly) almost like a chamber work for a large orchestra.  A masterpiece as far as I'm concerned.  Well, No. 6 - I love those trumpets.  I think what this performance shows is that there are probably valid different ways of interpreting the works, as we all probably knew.  I cannot say who is better, of the two, the performances are just different, often just a question of balance - there is a section towards the end, a sort of ostinato, almost like something from a minimalist piece that I had not noticed before.  But the core feeling of the work is still there in both performances.

Just to throw a spanner in the works, I have been listening to Henry Cowell.  Not to divert this thread or anything, but there seem to be certain similarities with HB, although the music sounds quite different and I don't think Cowell is so original even with all his oddities and eclecticism.  I notice an extended xylophone solo in Variations for Orchestra (1953) for instance.  Before anybody slags him off (and I haven't heard a lot of his output - about 800 works apparently), most of the performances I have heard are quite old and not all  of great quality (youtube mostly), so I'd like to hear some clean modern performances by someone who knows what they are doing (a recording of Symphony 5 by the VSO under Dixon has lots of brass playing out of tune to my ears towards the end, but one never knows with Cowell, maybe that was intended).  Sorry if this part of post is in wrong place  - im sure there is a Henry Cowell thread here but I have not found it.    Anyway, even the Americans can have their neglected composers... :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 15, 2015, 11:12:09 PM
Quote from: jon rady on April 15, 2015, 10:51:18 AM
Having listened to Walker's symphony's 28 etc a few times I can only say this is great.  I now like Symphony 29 (and perhaps 31 - nees mor listening.   At first I thought the pace was a bit lumbering, but its grown on me immensely.  Majestic.  No 28 was always a favourite since I first heard it on Radio 3 back in the 1970's?.  I still think Stokowski has the edge at certain points but this new performance seems much more cohesive but the strangeness is still there. And the orchestration is quite delicate (mostly) almost like a chamber work for a large orchestra.  A masterpiece as far as I'm concerned.  Well, No. 6 - I love those trumpets.  I think what this performance shows is that there are probably valid different ways of interpreting the works, as we all probably knew.  I cannot say who is better, of the two, the performances are just different, often just a question of balance - there is a section towards the end, a sort of ostinato, almost like something from a minimalist piece that I had not noticed before.  But the core feeling of the work is still there in both performances.

Just to throw a spanner in the works, I have been listening to Henry Cowell.  Not to divert this thread or anything, but there seem to be certain similarities with HB, although the music sounds quite different and I don't think Cowell is so original even with all his oddities and eclecticism.  I notice an extended xylophone solo in Variations for Orchestra (1953) for instance.  Before anybody slags him off (and I haven't heard a lot of his output - about 800 works apparently), most of the performances I have heard are quite old and not all  of great quality (youtube mostly), so I'd like to hear some clean modern performances by someone who knows what they are doing (a recording of Symphony 5 by the VSO under Dixon has lots of brass playing out of tune to my ears towards the end, but one never knows with Cowell, maybe that was intended). Sorry if this part of post is in wrong place  - im sure there is a Henry Cowell thread here but I have not found it.    Anyway, even the Americans can have their neglected composers... :)

The VSO also known as the VSOO (same band) can be heard in spectacularly bad form on most of their Westminster recordings especially under Scherchen . One WRC/Westminster incarnation even has VSOO on the sleeve and VSO on the record label. Their Planets with Boult is a horror - Mars actually collapses a couple of minutes in, so I assure you that your ears aren't playing tricks. Their erratic playing under the likes of Scherchen, Rudel and Dixon is pretty legendary. One critic once wrote that the playing was so bad that it had a strange magnetic hold on him. I know exactly what he means. I feel the same. They sound as if they recorded everything in a single take with no rehearsals, the playing is so bad.   
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 16, 2015, 01:39:53 AM
Almost makes you want to hear them!!
jon,there is a Cowell thread. The 2 cd set 'Chamber Works' and 'Dancing with Henry',on the Mode label,are particularly good,if you are interested in this composer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 17, 2015, 08:10:39 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 16, 2015, 01:39:53 AM
Almost makes you want to hear them!!
jon,there is a Cowell thread. The 2 cd set 'Chamber Works' and 'Dancing with Henry',on the Mode label,are particularly good,if you are interested in this composer.
Are you sure you want to hear them? OK, it's off the Brian topic of course but listen to this attempt at Espana. Horns rush ahead at 30 secs and bassoons go miles adrift at 1 min 13 secs. I uploaded this from my old World Record Club LP. Shoddy but sort of mesmerising. Their Bolero is,well.....different!  :D

https://youtu.be/bt4lmw01aZQ
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: jon rady on April 17, 2015, 12:41:13 PM
Well glad to hear its not my ears at fault (mine of information this place).  Thanks John.  And thanks cylgwin, I will look it up.  As for Cowell, I am not sure I like him (or rather his music) , but will give him a chance.  Some of the Hymn and fugueing tunes are quite nice and at least I find the music interesting.  What I forgot to say was it would be nice if Malcolm Macdonald was still out there and able to give us the lowdown on Foreman's performance of the 6th versus Walker's.  I cant read music, so have no idea who is more faithful to the score (if such a thing is possible, or even desirable).  Maybe someone else will step into the role?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 18, 2015, 12:12:28 AM
Quote from: jon rady on April 17, 2015, 12:41:13 PM
Well glad to hear its not my ears at fault (mine of information this place).  Thanks John.  And thanks cylgwin, I will look it up.  As for Cowell, I am not sure I like him (or rather his music) , but will give him a chance.  Some of the Hymn and fugueing tunes are quite nice and at least I find the music interesting.  What I forgot to say was it would be nice if Malcolm Macdonald was still out there and able to give us the lowdown on Foreman's performance of the 6th versus Walker's.  I cant read music, so have no idea who is more faithful to the score (if such a thing is possible, or even desirable).  Maybe someone else will step into the role?
Just use your own ears and make your own judgements, Jon. It's all subjective anyway - except for obvious clangers in execution, of course. Playing in an orchestra helps you to know what's going on but I think it's probably a curse to be honest. Ditto perfect pitch.You don't need to read music to love it. I can't kick a football but Leicester City has been a dominant factor in my life for over 50 years. I haven't heard the new 6th so I can't comment. The Lyrita version is far from perfect in terms of orchestral execution (if you want to be picky) but it's still a very convincing, heart warming performance in beautiful classic sound.The spirit is there. As far as being faithful to the score, the score is just black blobs on white paper. In HB's case he rarely had the chance to hear his music actually coming to life. That might explain some of the amateur quirkiness that pervades huge chunks of his orchestration. Either that or he didn't have the craftsmanship to put his thoughts down on paper properly ( i.e. no in depth knowledge of what individual instruments could actually do). My view tends towards the latter. The score is a starting point, that's all. I think there is too much analysis going on in music.That's not a side swipe at anybody, just a general observation. I'm one of the worst offenders! Buy both versions, sit back, use your ears and decide which one you like best. Simple. The only reason I have 20 Beethoven cycles,  6 Nielsen cycles, 12 Sibelius cycles  and hundreds of duplications of other pieces (Scheherazade - 35!!) is that I forget what they sound like and when I take something off the shelf it sounds as if I've never heard it before.Having one version of Beethoven 5 would do my head in.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: jon rady on April 20, 2015, 11:21:27 AM
I can't stick two notes together, and I cant play any instruments.  But I don't hear any amateurishness in the music generally. Well it works for me.  But yes who am I to say, given my complete lack of any knowledge.  But I find it hard to believe that a composer who was apparently quite  competent in the 1920's and 30's (such as in The Tigers as even Andrew Clements acknowledges), just got useless at wring for the individual instruments or the orchestra as a whole, later in his career.  Or maybe he did not care by then, not expecting anyone to actually perform anything?  More our loss than his.  Nielsen by the way - well I just love him, but I have read that some of his music stretches what is possible to the limits
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on April 20, 2015, 11:45:13 AM
I just don't recognise the description of Brian's scoring as in some way substandard, as put forward by John Whitmore.  The more we have good performances and recordings of the later works, the more "right" Brian sounds to me.  There isn't a moment in the new Naxos 28, for instance, where I don't think that the glittering, crystalline orchestration is perfect to express the sort of dogged, rugged thematic material he wanted to convey.  As Jon Rady says, Brian showed quite well in his early years that he had a fine ear for orchestral effects.  I am quite happy to accept he wanted the later music to sound as it does, and it works perfectly for me.  It's not an easy sound to get into on first acquaintance but the rewards of listening just keep growing every time I put one on, which to me is one of the marks of a great composer.  I don't think I could ever get tired of listening to this music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 20, 2015, 12:01:56 PM
Quote from: jon rady on April 20, 2015, 11:21:27 AM
I can't stick two notes together, and I cant play any instruments.  But I don't hear any amateurishness in the music generally. Well it works for me.

Jon, just remember that John doesn't like Havergal Brian's music. John's done yeoman service helping get some great Brian performances to CD (I prefer the Klassic Haus "Wine of Summer" to the new Dutton, for example), and should be thanked for that. But still, he is no fan of Brian's music and most of us do not agree with his criticism of Brian's talent.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 20, 2015, 02:25:14 PM
I actually do agree with some of John's observations about Brian's music,do enjoy reading his posts,but still love virtually everything Havergal Brian ever composed,believe it or not! ??? ;D Also,as far as I know John actually does enjoy some of his music. The Tenth (well,hopefully! ;D) and the third symphony,in particular,I believe?! I seem to recall he said he actually loved that one!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 20, 2015, 02:26:44 PM
Over to you,John! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 20, 2015, 04:18:38 PM
I few pages ago on this thread I had a bit of a rant about what happened to my favourite download site www.classicsonline.com run by Naxos. It was my favourite because it was the most reasonably priced download service for someone in Australia. For example a Naxos CD cost $6.99 (US) to download, most other CDs were $9.99 (US). Compare this to Prestoclassical where the avergae album is $12.95 (US) and iTunes ($16.00 (US)).

Well it has closed down and been replaced with a new site HDclassics or some such offering streaming and downloading services. They assure the user you can still download MP3s, so I tried to only to discover the price had gone up to $10.99 for a Naxos Disk, $12.95 for other albums. I wrote to them and asked what had ahppeend to the MP3s and they wrote back saying we are offering you a better service, all formats the same price, streaming service, keep it in your cloud &c.

I replied that if they had halved their prices they would be offering me a better service, but to increase them by 50% can hardly be described as offering better service.

Anyway, just wanted to let people know what had happened in case they used the old classicsonline site.

>:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 20, 2015, 11:45:44 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 20, 2015, 02:26:44 PM
Over to you,John! ;D
I do like some of Brian's music. The 10th the 22nd and the 3rd symphonies for example. It's just that I don't rate it especially highly and certainly not as highly as many people on this board do. He's just one of several English composers who were nearly men. There are too many of those to mention here. Sorry, but that's my opinion. Brian has been part of my life since 1972 and I've also devoted quite a lot of time to the HB cause. I tracked down the lost LSSO tapes, helped to save them from obscurity and wrote the booklet notes for the Heritage double CD. I also restored the Cameo piano music CD for David Kent Watson and there are a few titles I've worked on with Klassic Haus as well from the infamous Aries catalogue. Would I have done any of this time consuming and unpaid work if I actually disliked Brian's music? Well, I'm not totally mad so that probably gives you a clue to the answer. Did I do the work because I thought he was some neglected genius? Certainly not. I just wanted to restore some old recordings back into the catalogue, it's as simple as that. HB has some good ideas and some memorable moments along the way but I find the music to be too structurally wayward and undisciplined for my own personal taste (and it is personal isn't it?). Please read my MusicWeb review of the Tigers orchestral music on Heritage. There's nothing destructive or unfair about that. Ditto my review on the LSSO CDs (a slight bias, maybe, seeing as I played for the orchestra). I've also written articles for the Brian newsletter. I am, indeed, a fan rather than a fanatic. He wasn't the Messiah, he was just a very naughty boy. Please remember that Bob Simpson himself said that much of Brian's writing was crude and rough as a bear's backside - now there's a Brian/Nielsen champion and master composer talking. He knew there were issues and he made them very clear. It's those issues that I find difficult to overcome. There's just a lack of polish and craftsmanship about his work that irritates me - others see this as one of his strengths. Rough is good. Remember also the orchestral players views in that pre-Proms Gothic talk. Again, comments about the amateurish writing. I also find the scores too thick and contrapuntal. Too many notes. Too many inner parts that struggle to get through. Had the bloke had a chance to hear his music more often I truly believe that he would have heard the problems and done something about it. A sort of "Havergal Brian Lite" would have evolved and lifted the veil. Putting all this to one side I accept that some people love his music, warts and all. I'm not one of them. I listen to his work and think "if only". Eric Pinkett once told us that Brian was neglected because composers such as Elgar, Vaughan Williams and Britten were around at the same time. Hmm. So Leicester City would be top of the Premier league had it not been for Arsenal, Man Utd, Man City and another 15 teams being around at the same time. Peculiar logic. Brian does have a place in my affections. There is something magnetic about his story.There's something magnetic about some of his music. Does that put him in the master composer bracket? For me - not a chance in hell. Next contestant please.....  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 21, 2015, 12:20:48 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 20, 2015, 12:01:56 PM
Jon, just remember that John doesn't like Havergal Brian's music. John's done yeoman service helping get some great Brian performances to CD (I prefer the Klassic Haus "Wine of Summer" to the new Dutton, for example), and should be thanked for that. But still, he is no fan of Brian's music and most of us do not agree with his criticism of Brian's talent.

Sarge
Any more posts like this Sarge and I will strip you of your stripes and reduce you to the rank of corporal. If you fail to heed this warning then you will quickly become a private.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 21, 2015, 12:45:32 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 20, 2015, 02:25:14 PM
I actually do agree with some of John's observations about Brian's music,do enjoy reading his posts,but still love virtually everything Havergal Brian ever composed,believe it or not! ??? ;D Also,as far as I know John actually does enjoy some of his music. The Tenth (well,hopefully! ;D) and the third symphony,in particular,I believe?! I seem to recall he said he actually loved that one!
As you already know, Cilgwyn,  I'm more of a Das Siegeslied man myself. A masterpiece. Just for Jon's benefit - you might like to think about downloading the 7 Klassic Haus titles at $5 a go. The sound varies from excellent to iffy (never bad) but they are good vinyl restorations, high quality MP3s and a worthy addition to any HB collection. Even mine.  ;D Our Dutch agent Herrenberg wrote the CD sleeve notes. Don't buy the CDs because the Post Office will clobber you with ridiculous import fees.The 3rd is spectacular and the violin concerto is, actually, a very good piece. Honestly. The Ralph Holmes version is still a very good listen (what a great fiddle player he was). This link takes you to the version of Wine of Summer that Sarge (soon to be corporal) enjoys. You will find the others under the "Collaborations"  HB tab. Click the sleeve picture to hear samples.
http://klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-Nos--4--and--5.php
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on April 21, 2015, 04:29:12 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 20, 2015, 02:26:44 PM
Over to you,John! ;D

There is always a place for The Loyal Opposition.

(Which is not at all the same as Pffffttttt . . . .)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on April 21, 2015, 04:30:38 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on April 20, 2015, 11:45:44 PM
I do like some of Brian's music . . . It's just that I don't rate it especially highly and certainly not as highly as many people on this board do.

Well, this is no great distance from my own perspective.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 21, 2015, 07:06:58 AM
Everyone knows Brian's greatest masterpiece is really the Jolly Miller Comedy Overture! >:( ;D Although,strangely enough,apart from his piano music,it's the only music Brian composed that I don't like!
Any Jolly Miller Overture fans out there;now is your chance to defend your favourite Brian composition!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 21, 2015, 01:46:45 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on April 20, 2015, 11:45:44 PM
Please remember that Bob Simpson himself said that much of Brian's writing was crude and rough as a bear's backside - now there's a Brian/Nielsen champion and master composer talking. He knew there were issues and he made them very clear.

I'm pretty sure he said some of Brian's writing was crude and rough as a bear's backside. The quote is somewhere in MacDonald's volumes but the index is no help, Simpson is mentioned on almost every page. I'll have to have a longer look when I have time.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on April 21, 2015, 03:20:29 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 21, 2015, 01:46:45 PM
I'm pretty sure he said some of Brian's writing was crude and rough as a bear's backside.

And it's a rare man who will own in public that he knows a bear's backside so well.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 21, 2015, 10:48:46 PM
He could have had a teddy bear,of course?!! ??? ;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 22, 2015, 01:35:58 AM
Not quite the same quote, but another one by Robert Simpson about Brian: 'I still think he is a very uneven composer. Some of his music I think is really bad, terrible. But at his best he's got tremendous originality...'
Quoted on p.60 of The power of Robert Simpson, A biography by Donald Macauley.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 22, 2015, 04:21:57 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 22, 2015, 01:35:58 AM
Not quite the same quote, but another one by Robert Simpson about Brian: 'I still think he is a very uneven composer. Some of his music I think is really bad, terrible. But at his best he's got tremendous originality...'
Quoted on p.60 of The power of Robert Simpson, A biography by Donald Macauley.
A fair and balanced assessment I feel.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 22, 2015, 08:30:32 AM
Again,I don't really have a problem with John's assessment. I also tend to agree with allot of what he says;although,unlike John,I still enjoy most of Brian's music. Of course,John is a musician,so I can't really argue with him,anyway! :( ;D That said,he doesn't just dismiss the music out of hand;he explains the problems he perceives in detail and they do seem to correspond with and articulate the misgivings I have about Brian's music. I don't think this belittles Brian's achievement in anyway. In fact,in a way,it enhances it. A man from his background,teaching himself to compose symphonies and operas,including the most colossal symphony ever composed. Not many people can do that. Also,just because his music had all kinds of technical shortcomings (or whatever you call them?) doesn't detract from the fact that the man had a richly stocked imagination,allot of good ideas,in between the chaff,and an individual voice all of his own. I find his music strangely compulsive,anyway;and there is just something fascinating about his life and the man himself. I can think of other neglected British composers who could make fascinating material for a biographer,other than Brian. Cyril Scott with his Occult and New Age philosophy (look at all the wierd books that man wrote,listed on Amazon!) and Joseph Holbrooke,who was obsessed with Edgar Allan Poe,knew all kinds of extraordinary characters and was indeed an extremely colourful (if rather repellant) character himself! They also composed allot of hugely ambitious music. Nevertheless, despite a minor flurry of interest in recent years,I don't see many posts on music forums or hundreds of tickets sold out for concerts of Holbrooke's Apollo and the Seaman or Scott's Piano Concerto or third Symphony at Promenade Concerts! A pity,really. I quite like Holbrooke at his best and I would be very curious to hear Apollo and the Seaman and I think the two named works by Scott woud make a fantastic Prom! But there is something about Brian that captures peoples imagination more than allot of other composers who are considered to be of the second or third division.
As to me? I love his music,even if it has technical shortcomings. Except for the Jolly Miller Overture and the Piano music;and possibly,For Valour. Elgar,Walton and Bliss did that so much better!
Funnily enough I'm listening to Rued Langgaard now,whio is often regarded as a sort of Danish equivalent. I suppose you could pick his music apart if you wanted to.And people certainly have! The opera Antikrist for example;shouldn't really work at all,but,Wow!! What an extraordinary piece of music!

I remember writing to Gwydion Brooke some years ago in response to some music I had heard by his Father ,Joseph Holbrooke. I remember discussing the neglect of the Bax symphonies in my letter. In his reply,which included a free Lp of his Father's music,Gwydion Brooke told me that I was lucky I wasn't a musician in a way,because I could enjoy listening to a piece of music without worrying about it's technical shortcomings. Of course,he could have just been being polite,but it was an interesting point,and it helped make me feel a bit better about the fact that I didn't really know that much about music....at least from a technical point of view. Either way,I was dead chuffed to receive the letter. He was one of Beecham's famous 'Royals' and recorded some very famous performances. I've still got the letter and the Lp....but no record player! :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on April 22, 2015, 08:34:01 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 22, 2015, 08:30:32 AM
Again,I don't really have a problem with John's assessment. I also tend to agree with allot of what he says;although,unlike John,I still enjoy most of Brian's music.

Nothing wrong with that, of course;  lots of room in the Arts for our agreeing on facts, and yet disagreeing as to their significance or interpretation.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 23, 2015, 11:53:35 PM
Today I was compiling a Discography of Havergal Brian Works (as you do) and it was looking very good, in that almost all the symphonies have modern recordings (except 14 and 26), and we have recordings of so many of the other works.

However, I am not quite sure of the status of the EMI double disk. This is the one with recordings by Mackerras and Groves of symphonies 7, 8, 9, 31 and the Tinker's Wedding. None of the usual sources are showing this as available. Amazon copies which are described as 'new and used', but I think that 'new' on Amazon just means 'unopened'.

We have Klassihaus restorations of the Fredman 8 & 9 (originally BBC recordings) and 31 i son the new Naxos, but the symphony we don't have another recording of is 7, which is considered one of his best.....

:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 24, 2015, 12:25:49 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 23, 2015, 11:53:35 PM
Today I was compiling a Discography of Havergal Brian Works (as you do) and it was looking very good, in that almost all the symphonies have modern recordings (except 14 and 26), and we have recordings of so many of the other works.

However, I am not quite sure of the status of the EMI double disk. This is the one with recordings by Mackerras and Groves of symphonies 7, 8, 9, 31 and the Tinker's Wedding. None of the usual sources are showing this as available. Amazon copies which are described as 'new and used', but I think that 'new' on Amazon just means 'unopened'.

We have Klassihaus restorations of the Fredman 8 & 9 (originally BBC recordings) and 31 i son the new Naxos, but the symphony we don't have another recording of is 7, which is considered one of his best.....

:(
Depends what you call modern recordings. Has 21 ever been done again? The LSSO performance isn't modern but there's nothing actually wrong with the good old fashioned analogue stereo sound. It would be good to hear another version though. Is there another one out there,even in crude download radio broadcast type sound?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2015, 12:35:49 AM
Members of the HBS have online access to the Recordings Library, which contains the first performance of No. 21 with the London Symphony Orchestra, under Edward Downes (14 January 1969). I have listened to it only the once. When I have listened for a second time, I'll say something about its qualities. But not now - back to my writing!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on April 24, 2015, 04:45:28 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 23, 2015, 11:53:35 PM

However, I am not quite sure of the status of the EMI double disk. This is the one with recordings by Mackerras and Groves of symphonies 7, 8, 9, 31 and the Tinker's Wedding. None of the usual sources are showing this as available. Amazon copies which are described as 'new and used', but I think that 'new' on Amazon just means 'unopened'.


I bought one of these recently.  It was produced by ArkivMusic, an outfit which reprints out-of-print CDs under licence.  The Arkiv website is contradictory as to whether it is still available, but this page shows it available for under $29:
http://www.ecoupons.com/products/arkivmusic/243277696/NjMxMDE=

I imagine those still shown as "new" on Amazon are from this source.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 28, 2015, 07:39:47 AM
Finally back on the internet after hours of battlinng with routers,wireless adaptors,networks and cables. Wierd! I went to bed and the connection was fine. I was thinking it was better than usual. This morning....nothing!! :( I was on the verge of phoning my isp,when I finally got it back!!

After finding out that the second cd in my Forlane set was faulty. Well,it won't play on the new Mini hi-fi,anyway...I finally ordered the Heritage cd of The Symphonic Movements from The Tigers and,since Amazon had it in stock,and to take advantage of the Super Saver delivery,the 2cd set Heritage set Havergal Brian The First Commercial Recordings. I am ashamed to say I didn't buy this when it came out! (Although I DID feel bad about not buying it,believe me!) I'm looking forward to these anyway,John! The first cd of the Forlane set is fine,with the Hubert Parry 3rd on it,which I enjoyed very much as a youngster (hope that get's a reissue one day,it's a fine recording!) so I will have the lot now and the Forlane notes and artwork,anyway!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 28, 2015, 07:48:58 AM
Good to hear you're online again, cilgwyn! Welcome to the digital world. ;-) A pity that second CD was faulty. It made you bite the bullet, though, and buy the whole set, which isn't a bad thing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 28, 2015, 07:54:04 AM
And there I was goading you into buying the Testament Tigers set and I hadn't even bought those two earlier releases! :-[ ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 28, 2015, 08:01:02 AM
Haha! I still have to order the Tigers set... Have to be a bit careful, money-wise. But I'll be a proud owner in the not-too-distant future.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 28, 2015, 10:12:01 AM
The Forlane cd was wonderful in it's day;but the cd set,while nice to own,is a bit annoying in the way it 'splits' the Brian over the two cds. Of course,you can make a cd-r;but it's nice to have it all on a 'proper' commercially produced cd. Also,the Fould's piece chosen makes a better companion than the Parry,wonderful as it is (a big favourite with me!) Of course,the Parry was an appropriate companion,in a way,considering his importance in the history of British music and his legacy. It certainly would be nice to hear more of his symphonies in the concert hall and imho they should be heard if we value our musical history. Anyway.... ;D......the Fould's are of course available in new,albeit not necessarily finer recordings,depending on your viewpoint. Only,the evocative St Joan suite is a difficult buy! If I bought that volume of the Dutton series it's included on I would almost certainly suffer an overwhelming compulsion to purchase the rest!! ??? :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 28, 2015, 10:17:19 AM
I note the sad news that Keith Harris died today. Not exactly one of my favourite puppets,I'm afraid;but I do enjoy a goggle o' geer at the weekend!! :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on April 28, 2015, 10:40:20 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 28, 2015, 10:17:19 AM
I note the sad news that Keith Harris died today. Not exactly one of my favourite puppets,I'm afraid;but I do enjoy a goggle o' geer at the weekend!! :o ;D

(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2886946/thumbs/o-KEITH-HARRIS-570.jpg?7)

All together now ...

O: "I wish I could fly
Way up to the sky
But I can't"

KH: "You can"

O: "I can't
But I'll have a bloody good try

Up, up and away ..."

BANG!

KH: "Oops, forgot it was the glorious twelfth"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 29, 2015, 12:18:27 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 28, 2015, 07:39:47 AM
Finally back on the internet after hours of battlinng with routers,wireless adaptors,networks and cables. Wierd! I went to bed and the connection was fine. I was thinking it was better than usual. This morning....nothing!! :( I was on the verge of phoning my isp,when I finally got it back!!

After finding out that the second cd in my Forlane set was faulty. Well,it won't play on the new Mini hi-fi,anyway...I finally ordered the Heritage cd of The Symphonic Movements from The Tigers and,since Amazon had it in stock,and to take advantage of the Super Saver delivery,the 2cd set Heritage set Havergal Brian The First Commercial Recordings. I am ashamed to say I didn't buy this when it came out! (Although I DID feel bad about not buying it,believe me!) I'm looking forward to these anyway,John! The first cd of the Forlane set is fine,with the Hubert Parry 3rd on it,which I enjoyed very much as a youngster (hope that get's a reissue one day,it's a fine recording!) so I will have the lot now and the Forlane notes and artwork,anyway!
Electricity? In Wales? Blimey.............. :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 29, 2015, 12:26:15 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 28, 2015, 07:39:47 AM
Finally back on the internet after hours of battlinng with routers,wireless adaptors,networks and cables. Wierd! I went to bed and the connection was fine. I was thinking it was better than usual. This morning....nothing!! :( I was on the verge of phoning my isp,when I finally got it back!!

After finding out that the second cd in my Forlane set was faulty. Well,it won't play on the new Mini hi-fi,anyway...I finally ordered the Heritage cd of The Symphonic Movements from The Tigers and,since Amazon had it in stock,and to take advantage of the Super Saver delivery,the 2cd set Heritage set Havergal Brian The First Commercial Recordings. I am ashamed to say I didn't buy this when it came out! (Although I DID feel bad about not buying it,believe me!) I'm looking forward to these anyway,John! The first cd of the Forlane set is fine,with the Hubert Parry 3rd on it,which I enjoyed very much as a youngster (hope that get's a reissue one day,it's a fine recording!) so I will have the lot now and the Forlane notes and artwork,anyway!
I think the CBS disc will be the biggest surprise for you. Very clear and close. Also, one of the noisiest sessions ever produced. It didn't show up on the LP (or the Klassic Haus transfers) but there are so many bow taps, shuffles and creaky chairs that it's something of a collectors item when played on headphones. Committed music making all the same and great to hear Psalm 23 without horrible end of side LP distortion in the louder choral passages. Nice.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 29, 2015, 02:02:19 AM
Quote from: Albion on April 28, 2015, 10:40:20 PM
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2886946/thumbs/o-KEITH-HARRIS-570.jpg?7)

All together now ...

O: "I wish I could fly
Way up to the sky
But I can't"

KH: "You can"

O: "I can't
But I'll have a bloody good try

Up, up and away ..."

BANG!

KH: "Oops, forgot it was the glorious twelfth"
;D Altogether now,Aaaaaah!! Much safer sitting around with a mans hand up your *censored*!! Goodness! No wonder he wanted to fly!!! :o
(Now,where's yellowing copy of How to become a Ventriloquist?!! I have a hunch it's in the same box as How to kick sand in someone's face and get away with it by Charles Atlas!!) A weeks supply of sweet cigarettes for those. I used to love nibbling the candy filters off!

John,believe it or not,we've got allot of running water here too....and  I gather allot of it get's piped over the border. But let's not get into that one!! ;D
(Yep,the generator is on!)
I have a confession here. While I cherished and brained my parents with the LSSO Lp of No's 10 & 21,I never had the CBS Lp. I think I have listened to downloads,but I don't think they were amongst the best in terms of sound quality. I suspect this cd set is going to be a bit of an 'ear opener'?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 29, 2015, 02:36:01 AM
I have a confession here. While I cherished and brained my parents with the LSSO Lp of No's 10 & 21,I never had the CBS Lp. I think I have listened to downloads,but I don't think they were amongst the best in terms of sound quality. I suspect this cd set is going to be a bit of an 'ear opener'?


I always preferred the Unicorn LP to the CBS in terms of orchestral playing (marginally) and recording quality (massively) but the CBS LP pressing was to blame with its tinny top end (I always disliked CBS LPs on the whole). Horrible thing. The actual master tapes are very direct and in your face. Decca Phase 4ish. The Heritage Unicorn transfer is better than the previous CD incarnation but it's the CBS that makes you sit up. I was totally amazed when I heard it. Report back, please..........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 29, 2015, 10:12:12 AM
I certainly will,John. Amazon are still at the 'getting ready to dispatch' stage,so far!
Your comments about CBS are interesting. I don't know about their Uk 'division' but some of their US recordings were known for their 'dry' sound,weren't they? Szell's recordings famously. I gor rid of the few I had. It doesn't matter what some people say about his conducting;the sound quality was so unpleasant,and I'm someone who can listen to recordings made on shellac. The Andrew Davis recordings of Borodin symphonies were also ruined by this horrible dry sound. I have no problem with some other CBS recordings,however. Ormandy,for example. That said,when I think of a label with really good sound quality,CBS is never one that springs to mind. Decca and Emi,for example;but not CBS! I'm listening to an EMI recording now,from 1960,I believe;Ackermann's second stereo recording of Die Fledermaus. It sounds more like a recording from at least ten years later.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 29, 2015, 10:24:24 AM
CBS do seem to have improved later. For example,their recording of Weinberger's Schwanda (c1980?) has superb sound quality. Quite sumptuous,like Decca,at it's best. But,that dry,thin quality is usually the highest of all on my list of what can turn me off even the best performance. I have recordings made in the early years of the last century,acoustic ones included,that I can enjoy. so it's not really just about sound quality,but the sound itself.....if that makes any sense?!! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 30, 2015, 01:07:26 AM
After my recent problem with my Forlane set,I thought I'd better test my emi set of Brian symphonies 7-9. It worked perfectly,thank goodness. What great recordings,though,and whether Brian is a major composer or not,or didn't really understand the orchestra (and,so on) I still find these symphonies as absorbing as ever. I notice the well known Amazon seller I bought my set from has one on offer at a very low price,right now.......fortunately,this time around,I won't be needing them!! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 30, 2015, 04:23:13 AM
I am given to understand,from a post at the AMF (see Dutton release thread) that Dutton are planning to record Brian's (who else? ;D) Second and Fourteenth symphonies. I hope this is true! Two of my favourite Brian symphonies on one cd!! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 30, 2015, 04:32:53 AM
A little bird told me this in confidence a year ago... Great news. Three cheers for Dutton!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 30, 2015, 08:14:57 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 30, 2015, 04:32:53 AM
A little bird told me this in confidence a year ago... Great news. Three cheers for Dutton!
Who is she and how long have you been seeing each other? You devil....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 30, 2015, 08:19:44 AM
No comment. And she was a he. (No, that doesn't imply anything...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on April 30, 2015, 08:34:56 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 30, 2015, 08:19:44 AM
No comment. And she was a he. (No, that doesn't imply anything...)

So they'll still serve you pizza in Indiana . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 30, 2015, 10:37:28 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 30, 2015, 09:08:25 PM
A Dutton 2 and 14 would be very nice. Hope they don't scrimp on the horns in the Scherzo of 2. All 16 pls.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 01, 2015, 08:13:27 AM
Indeed! I'm sure a label like Dutton will pull out all the stops,though. And I hope they don't stop there! I would love a Dutton third! The Hyperion recording of the third was never entirely satisfactory. Like allot of other Brianites I always listen to the Pope third. In fact I think I'll have a comparison session this week. I haven't listened to the Hyperion third in ages and it will be interesting to hear it again and compare the two. I remember my first copy of the Hyperion was actually the cassette release.

If you like the Second Symphony Leslie Head's performances are a fascinating alternative to the Mackerras recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 01, 2015, 01:55:07 PM
Koechlin and Tournemire first,though! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 02, 2015, 02:09:34 AM
Through the letterbox this morning!

Havergal Brian: The First Commercial Recordings          Heritage 2cds
                      Symphonic Movements from The Tigers Heritage
Louis Spohr      Symphonies 7 & 9 Cpo  (latest release in Cpo cycle)

Both neglected composers who have very active societies (Spohr has two!) and some people think are actually major composers. One key difference. Spohr was once actually considered to be one! Although,Brian had a very promising start to his composing career! Alas! :(
Need I add,I like them both,very much!! Do I think they are major composers? Erm? As I said,I like them both very much!! ;D

I haven't actually listened to all the Havergal Brian cd's yet. I am currently on Symphonies 10 & 21. The sound quality is stunning. The best I have heard with respect to these recordings,unless my ears deceive me?!! ::) ;D Again,I can't help thinking of the words that were often used to describe cd's when they were first released,back in the eighties,"as if a veil has been lifted",or in this case,a cotton sheet! Again,this feeling of a Mrs Mop scrubbing a worktop until you can literally see your face in it. Or,if you're old enough,that scots woman in the Ajax ads!! Remember the way those floor tiles sparkled?! Anyway,that's how it feels to listen to these recordings. Although,not wanting to sound like the late,great Les Dawson,you don't get the mother-in-law!
Fantastic! The notes are exemplary. I will say a bit more about them a bit later. One question for the moment,however. What are "Treasure Island Music"? The back of the cd says No's 10 & 21 are licensed from them. Aharr..Jim me harty..just being nosey,that's all!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on May 02, 2015, 06:20:16 AM
Treasure Island Music seems to be the company that has acquired the rights to the Unicorn-Kanchana catalogue, see here: http://www.treasureislandmusic.com/proof/

It does not mean these are pirated recordings!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 02, 2015, 07:30:05 AM
 :o Yeeeikes!!! The thought didn't even cross my mind!! I should have put a 'Grin' emoticon afterwards,I suppose! It was merely a humorous reference to the famous childrens book!! Of course,they didn't have sound recording devices back in Long John Silver's day! Shiver me timbers!! ???

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 02, 2015, 07:31:46 AM
Once the Auvidis Valois recording of Tournemire's Seventh finishes I'll put the Hyperion third on........then,the Pope recording. Should be fun! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on May 02, 2015, 09:02:56 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 30, 2015, 09:08:25 PMA Dutton 2 and 14 would be very nice.

Never has the adjective "nice" seemed so inadequate!

;)

The Marco Polo/ Naxos 2nd was, is and continues to be a total and unmitigated disaster: a great flabby blancmange of decidedly dodgy playing, turgid tempi, aimless direction and acoustically-moribund putrefaction. All copies should be rounded up and committed without any more ado to a large vat of sulphuric acid. Having purchased (and then promptly binned) the original Marco Polo incarnation, it is the one disc in their series that I would not let cross my threshold again. The prospect of a brand-new Dutton 2nd (especially if coupled with the 14th) under (presumably) Martyn Brabbins is BLEEDIN' FANTASTIC.

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2015, 09:05:11 AM
 :)

Post of the day.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on May 02, 2015, 09:12:41 AM
I believe that no.2 may well emerge as one of HB's most profound and original symphonies (along with 8, 27 and 30). Certainly Mackerras gets closer to it than Rowe, but the score has both depths of despair and Wagnerian grandeur that nobody has yet realised or conveyed to a single listener.

???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2015, 09:22:57 AM
No. 2 is certainly a very rich score. I have my problems, I must admit, with the first movement's  main theme: after all that build-up it's a bit anticlimactic. But who knows what Brabbins can do? I love all the other movements.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on May 02, 2015, 09:34:16 AM
Quote from: Albion on May 02, 2015, 09:12:41 AM
I believe that no.2 may well emerge as one of HB's most profound and original symphonies (along with 8, 27 and 30). Certainly Mackerras gets closer to it than Rowe, but the score has both depths of despair and Wagnerian grandeur that nobody has yet realised or conveyed to a single listener.

???

Pop 16 in there as well.

Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2015, 09:22:57 AM
No. 2 is certainly a very rich score. I have my problems, I must admit, with the first movement's  main theme: after all that build-up it's a bit anticlimactic. But who knows what Brabbins can do? I love all the other movements.

The theme simply needs better shaping and commitment to reveal it's significance in the movement. I see (in posts above) that HB is still being accused of amateurish orchestration. He was one of the most original exponents of the full symphony orchestra since Berlioz (also roundly criticised in his time and since) and knew precisely what effects he wanted (already by 1903 his Burlesque Variations are quite astoundingly idiosyncratic in this respect): nobody with as much intelligence and in-depth knowledge of repertoire (vide his eclectic and widely-sympathetic musical criticism) could commit instrumental thoughts to paper that he knew would either be unplayable or not work when properly rehearsed to a high standard. "Amateur", "bungler", even "idiot savant" - what a load of old knackers.

8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2015, 09:37:02 AM
Agreed. Brian's orchestral decisions are based on choice, not on incompetence.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on May 02, 2015, 09:49:21 AM
Anyone would could orchestrate 5, 6 and 9 knew PRECISELY what he has doing in handling instrumentation. Let's lay this hoary, wizened old chestnut of "because he hadn't heard it in performance he couldn't possibly hear it in his head" to eternal rest.

::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 02, 2015, 10:35:26 AM
I put on the Pope third immediately after listening to Lionel Friend's third,which I haven't listened to in ages. Now,I stlll enjoyed the symphony in it's Hyperion incarnation,but oh,wow-ee,there just is no comparison. It sounds like a different symphony in this performance. It just sweeps you along with it. There is a grandeur and mystery to it;all the astonishing textures and layers of amazing orchestration all come together and spring to life. The Hyperion recording seems sterile in comparison. I feel sad that some people have been turned off this amazing symphony by the Hyperion performance;although I'm proud to say I've done my bit by alerting music lovers to the marvelous Pope recording via Amazon comments (and it does seem to be working!). The quality of the recording itself didn't help! Not that I want to knock Lionel Friend,whose wonderful recording of The Tigers I have been enjoying,so much! Maybe,other here will know a bit more about problems that may have had some detrimental effect on this recording. The acoustic is boxy and cramped,for a start. The Pope is from Klassik  Haus;and after the Hyperion recording the Pope seems to open out towards the vast vistas this incredible symphony needs.
Interesting comments and colourful use of language in relation to Brian detractors and the Second Symphony,which just happens to be my favourite Brian symphony after the third. While I have expressed my reservations about the Hyperion third here,it certainly isn't at the level of the Marco Polo recording of the Second,which is on a par with an Irwin Allen disaster movie,and just as shoddily directed and produced! It's amazing the damage a poor performance and recording can do to a piece of music. I have been enjoying the new Cpo recording of Louis Glass's third symphony. After enduring the Plovdiv performances for so long,it is now revealed as the glorious late romantic symphony it really is! Wonderful! :)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 02, 2015, 10:53:01 AM
And the pianos sound grand in this performance!! I love the epic,heroic feel to this symphony and the way Brian actually has a grand piano concerto going on there at the same time. I find the way it weaves in and out of this symphony quite fascinating. An endlessly absorbing symphony.I can't think of another piece of music like this. The fantastic images it brings to mind. I could listen to this for hours.........and I have....and will!! :)
The Second Symphony next! The Mackerras first....then the Leslie Head performances. Or maybe the other way around?!! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 02, 2015, 11:25:42 AM
Another point. In the Hyperion recording the high spirits of the Allegro vivace can seem curiously out of place. In the Pope performance it feels like a logical progression. What else would Brian place here? After all,this is one of his most overtly romantic compositions! It is also provides a wonderful,high spirited respite before the clouds gather again for the high drama of the finale!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2015, 11:30:41 AM
I share your enthusiasm for the Pope, both Stanley and Francis.... As for Friend's performance, I like the last movement best (in mitigation).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 02, 2015, 12:49:33 PM
The Hyperion performance isn't that bad. I think some people,coming new to Brian,might have doubts,but they would still be intrigued by what they heard and want to investigate further. On the other hand,a performance like the Pope one is the sort that could really sweep you off your feet! People react differently,don't they? I just feel sad that it might not make the positive impact it should,because it is,after all,one of Brian's most fascinating and original compositions.
As to the Marco Polo Second. I think that must have put off quite a few people who would,otherwise,enjoy it (and Brian's music in general). I remember when they had the Naxos cd's in the racks at the,now defunct,chain store MVC. Just imagine if that was your first encounter with Brian?
That said,the truly awful Plovdiv didn't put me off Louis Glass! :) I still sent off for the Cpo recording,and imho,it's worth every penny! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2015, 01:14:34 PM
I only know the Svastica (sic), Glass's Fifth. So No. 3 is just as fine?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 02, 2015, 01:53:10 PM
I bought all the Plovdiv recordings and of the others the third was the one I liked the most. The Plovdiv performances and recordings have had allot of flak,justifiably unfortunately.....and the proof is in the pudding,as they say;the third sounds like a completely different work in the new Cpo recording,which is supposed to be (hopefully) the beginning of a cycle. I now think it is an absolutely gorgeous late romantic symphony. I like the suite,too. I kept playing the cd on repeat;and after I finished listening to it I kept hearing the music in my head. There is one tune that sounds almost like a theme from a Hollywood film from the Golden age. Very romantic and you remember it. The sound quality and playing is excellent. It obviously outclasses the Plovdiv in every possible way and is very probably the best recording this composer has ever had. In short,I thoroughly recommend it!

And going back very briefly to Brian's third (I'm afraid! ;D). I kept thinking,while listening to this symphony,that it has often been referred to as 'Brucknerian'. I thought,in that case,since I'm in the mood for something that get's called 'Brucknerian',why not have another go at the 'real thing'?! Well,I put on the Eighth and something strange has happened. I'm enjoying Bruckner! So much so I just bought symphonies 4-6 on ebay!! :o >:( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 02, 2015, 01:55:59 PM
Thanks for the info about Glass. And great you're starting out on a Bruckner journey!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 02, 2015, 02:22:09 PM
Yes,I'm thinking,why didn't I enjoy this before? But come to think of it,I did,back in the eighties. I remember borrowing Karjan Lp's of Bruckner from the local library. I was playing them all. Later on I seemed to go off Bruckner for some reason! Wait till calyptorhyncus hears about this. He was trying to convince me.

By the way,I wouldn't like to say Louis Glass's third is quite on the same level as the Fifth;but I love it in this new recording. I can't wait to hear them in more......particularly No 5.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 02, 2015, 10:24:22 PM
Yes, I'm very happy to hear it. I heard Bruckner's 7th when I was 17 and quickly went through all the others. They seem to me to be the authentic voice of symphonism in the C19 and i hear others as divergent, rather than the other way around.

Friend's HB No3 was my second piece of HB, BTW, after the English Suite No.5. I liked it, though it was the EMI 7, 8, 9, 31 that really spurred my interest.
;)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 03, 2015, 02:22:10 AM
I remember discussing Bruckner with you. The wierd thing is I can remember enjoying Bruckner now,back in the eighties. I remember getting all those Karajan Lp's with the wings (I think? I must have a look at them) on the front,from the library. I had them blasting away on the old record player,along with Solti's Brahms and Elgar. Another conductor who,like Karajan was more highly rated then than he is now. The libraries seemed to be groaning with the weight of their recordings! ,Although I gather Karajan's Bruckner is still highly rated by some. That said,if you are really into Bruckner you will obviously have preferences,maybe spurn Karajan,and........ if you are really into Bruckner in a really big way,more than one cycle. Need I say,I have Karajan 7-9 already, and I bought Klemperer's Sixth,which I have heard on a library cassette and the Haitink 4 & 5 Philips 'twofer',because they were cheap! As far as I could make out some people think Bruckner's Haitink is good (although I gather his Fifth is the better of the two) and I like Klemperer in Brahms,and I know his Sixth is regarded by many as a classic. That said,when I think of Bruckner,I tend to think of Karajan,Jochum or Wand;not Haitink!? But I'm on a budget at the moment,so hopefully Haitink will do!!If I really get into Bruckner I will follow up some of your suggestions;but I need to cut back on cd's spending for a while......or join the guy opposite the ATM flogging the Big Issue. Actually,I don't think he'll want me there as well?!!

And going back to Havergal Brian! ;D I do find it interesting that Brian's third got me into Bruckner again;but a bit worrying that all those loud Karajan Bruckner work outs back in the eighties should have slipped my mind! I remember I had the Ole Schmidt Gothic,the Poole Das Siegesled,the Unicorn Gliere Ilya Murometz thundering away as well. Not to mention Janis Jopilin,In the Court of the Crimson King,Emerson Lake & Palmer,Dark Side of the Moon,James Brown..............wow! No wonder I had the neighbour's shoe collection lying outside my front door?!!! (I thought it was timpani?!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 03, 2015, 02:38:13 AM
I must admit I preferred Brian's eighth and ninth at the time. I bought the Aries Lp of the third from 'Michal G Thomas,who used to advertise in the back of Gramophone. I had no idea it was a pirate. I was so disappointed with it it at the time I actually physically broke the Lp up! It later became my favourite Brian symphony and still is! As to whether it is Brucknerian? Well,only in size and scope,and it does have that granitic,heroic romantic feel to it and it certainly can evoke similarly vast vistas in the minds eye! Apart from that it's just pure,unadulterated Brian! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on May 03, 2015, 02:41:14 AM
Just where can I find the Pope recording mentioned?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 03, 2015, 02:45:12 AM
klassichaus.us/Brian:-Symphony-No--3.php (http://klassichaus.us/Brian:-Symphony-No--3.php)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 03, 2015, 03:09:54 AM
The sound quality is fantastic in the Klassic Haus (I hope I've got the spelling right,this time! :() restoration. Maybe not current state of the art;but it really feels like vast vistas are opening out after that cramped sounding Hyperion recording. The performance just sweeps you along,the pianos sound really grand! I think the Art Music Forum have it in their library if you want it free;but you'll need to register first,and preferably add some polite posts!  I have that one,and it's pretty good;but the Klassic Haus restoration sounds like the proverbial veil has been lifted away. It's cleaner,more vivid,you hear more detail,it has more impact. The Klassic Haus is the one I always play....and as John would say,as cheap as chips! (Well,a bit more,actually...........but Havergal Brian is better for your health! ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 04, 2015, 08:01:05 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 02, 2015, 02:09:34 AM
Through the letterbox this morning!

Havergal Brian: The First Commercial Recordings          Heritage 2cds
                      Symphonic Movements from The Tigers Heritage
Louis Spohr      Symphonies 7 & 9 Cpo  (latest release in Cpo cycle)

Both neglected composers who have very active societies (Spohr has two!) and some people think are actually major composers. One key difference. Spohr was once actually considered to be one! Although,Brian had a very promising start to his composing career! Alas! :(
Need I add,I like them both,very much!! Do I think they are major composers? Erm? As I said,I like them both very much!! ;D

I haven't actually listened to all the Havergal Brian cd's yet. I am currently on Symphonies 10 & 21. The sound quality is stunning. The best I have heard with respect to these recordings,unless my ears deceive me?!! ::) ;D Again,I can't help thinking of the words that were often used to describe cd's when they were first released,back in the eighties,"as if a veil has been lifted",or in this case,a cotton sheet! Again,this feeling of a Mrs Mop scrubbing a worktop until you can literally see your face in it. Or,if you're old enough,that scots woman in the Ajax ads!! Remember the way those floor tiles sparkled?! Anyway,that's how it feels to listen to these recordings. Although,not wanting to sound like the late,great Les Dawson,you don't get the mother-in-law!
Fantastic! The notes are exemplary. I will say a bit more about them a bit later. One question for the moment,however. What are "Treasure Island Music"? The back of the cd says No's 10 & 21 are licensed from them. Aharr..Jim me harty..just being nosey,that's all!!
1) Much better than the earlier Unicorn CD with its dessicated top end.
2) It was Flash NOT Ajax. Please check your facts before posting.  :D
3) Malcolm's bit is exemplary anyway. I'm glad I had some dealings with the legend before he died.
If you think a veil has been lifted on the Unicorn to make it sparkle you better get some sunglasses on for the CBS disc.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 04, 2015, 11:04:06 AM
Flash of course! ??? ;D Now,I remember the way she said it!! Another dumb,poorly researched post,eh?!! :( ;D I am going to come back with some more observations about the superb notes,soon! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 04, 2015, 10:22:12 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 04, 2015, 11:04:06 AM
Flash of course! ??? ;D Now,I remember the way she said it!! Another dumb,poorly researched post,eh?!! :( ;D I am going to come back with some more observations about the superb notes,soon! :)
Molly Weir. She as also in Rentaghost. Here she is in all her glory co-starring with Audrey from Corrie.

https://youtu.be/lSrHMUo072M
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 04, 2015, 10:33:29 PM
I don't know whether I've shared this in the past. Thought it might be of some interest.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/rnua1e55fboc8wa/The_LSSO_Havergal_Brian_recordings.pdf
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 05, 2015, 02:02:09 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 03, 2015, 02:45:12 AM
klassichaus.us/Brian:-Symphony-No--3.php (http://klassichaus.us/Brian:-Symphony-No--3.php)
Just listening to it now. Forgotten how good it is. However it really is best to buy the FLAC or MP3 download. If you opt for the CD you may be hit with post office charges and import duty outside of the USA. Our friend Colin had this problem. The download includes artwork for the CD case. The recording is clean, full of impact and really shines but don't expect state of the art. It's typical broadcast quality. More than good enough for my ears. The transfer has also been pitch corrected. When you go to the link click the front cover to hear some audio samples. That will give you a good idea. I like this symphony (shock,horror!!).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2015, 02:05:32 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 05, 2015, 02:02:09 AM
Just listening to it now. Forgotten how good it is. (...) I like this symphony (shock,horror!!).

Praise the Lord!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 05, 2015, 03:49:46 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 05, 2015, 03:59:16 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2015, 02:05:32 AM
Praise the Lord!
I've changed my mind. It's rubbish.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2015, 04:01:52 AM
Praise the Lord for roasting sinners!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on May 05, 2015, 08:16:30 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2015, 04:01:52 AM
Praise the Lord for roasting sinners!

Hallelujah, brothers! The lame shall leap, the coffin-dodgers shall cast aside their Zimmer frames and the ears of the deaf shall be opened even unto the glorious welter of fat orchestral noise. For it came to pass in those days that the Lord looked kindly upon the Brianites and provided them with many fine recordings to worship.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2015, 08:20:21 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 05, 2015, 09:36:03 AM
Quote from: Albion on May 05, 2015, 08:16:30 AM
Hallelujah, brothers! The lame shall leap, the coffin-dodgers shall cast aside their Zimmer frames and the ears of the deaf shall be opened even unto the glorious welter of fat orchestral noise. For it came to pass in those days that the Lord looked kindly upon the Brianites and provided them with many fine recordings to worship.
Brian isn't the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on May 05, 2015, 10:00:02 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 05, 2015, 03:59:16 AM
I've changed my mind. It's rubbish.

The Pope will grant absolution.  Stanley, that is.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 05, 2015, 10:07:25 AM
Hallelujah! :)

But lo,the Holbrookians were downcast because Dutton had nothing in the r**** pipeline,and Cpo's second volume of his orchestral works was not forthcoming! And so there was much gnashing of teeth and beating of chests amongst the Holbrookians...... .and the outlook was not good!! :( :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 05, 2015, 10:16:07 AM
And yet more gnashing of teeth amongst the Holbrookeans,because I left the 'e' out at the end of Holbrooke!! :o :(  (And I think it looks better without the 'i'!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 05, 2015, 10:18:25 AM
 ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on May 05, 2015, 10:37:52 AM
And lo! the Lord looked down upon the prospect of a Dutton 2nd and 14th and saw that it was good. He smiteth the unbelieving Andrew Clements with sore boils even unto the third and fourth generation: the Lord thy God is a curmudgeonly God and sheweth favour to those who spitteth in the face of the ignorant critic. Esau is an hairy man and Moab's washpot, but we won't hold that against him.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2015, 10:40:49 AM
That passage from 2 Havergal 8:5-9 never fails to move me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on May 05, 2015, 10:45:57 AM
Aye, lad, there's rarely a dry leg in the pew.

???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 05, 2015, 10:47:21 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 04, 2015, 08:01:05 AM
1) Much better than the earlier Unicorn CD with its dessicated top end.
2) It was Flash NOT Ajax. Please check your facts before posting.  :D
3) Malcolm's bit is exemplary anyway. I'm glad I had some dealings with the legend before he died.
If you think a veil has been lifted on the Unicorn to make it sparkle you better get some sunglasses on for the CBS disc.
I'm listening to the second cd in the set,now. These recordings always sounded a bit dry and thin,in terms of the recording quality. The sound feels as if it has opened up now. It has a warmth to it now and a nice bass response. I have got as far as Psalm 23 (no connection with the previous posts,I might add! ;D) I must admit I haven't bothered with this piece before,but it is enjoyable enough here! I will play the Naxos cd afterwards as a comparison;but I have a feeling that the LSSO performance is still King!! Even to my musically untutored ears it seems to pack more of a punch,as they say!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 05, 2015, 10:56:04 AM
This isn't a biblical gag.....I'm leaving those to Albion,now (Holbrookeans 0 Brianites 10) but Brian's Psalm 23 is a nice piece,really! I enoyed it! :)

I didn't know Esau was a hairy man?!! ??? :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on May 05, 2015, 11:06:13 AM
Can anyone tell me where did this news about a Dutton 2 & 14 come from?  I can't find anything official about it.  Does someone have inside information from Dutton?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 05, 2015, 11:07:03 AM
'They shall sow the wind and reap the wind-machine'

8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2015, 11:07:52 AM
Sow true.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 05, 2015, 11:12:47 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2015, 11:07:52 AM
Sow true.

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 05, 2015, 11:37:03 AM
Quote from: Augustus on May 05, 2015, 11:06:13 AM
Can anyone tell me where did this news about a Dutton 2 & 14 come from?  I can't find anything official about it.  Does someone have inside information from Dutton?
I wouldn't care to comment on that one,except to say that I spotted the news via a post at the Art Music Forum,and someone there obviously knew (and from reading his posts) he obviously has some kind of connection with Dutton! And some members of this forum are with the HBS.....so.....!! Anyway........I'm looking forward to this one. My favourite Brian symphony after No 3!

And back to cd 1 of the Heritage set. And (to go with the flow) lo there was the sound of a great LSSO wind machine ........but the Naxos No 22,first! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 05, 2015, 11:41:30 AM
Oh to be an insider!! ::) :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 05, 2015, 12:16:20 PM
Quote from: Augustus on May 05, 2015, 11:06:13 AM
Can anyone tell me where did this news about a Dutton 2 & 14 come from?  I can't find anything official about it.  Does someone have inside information from Dutton?
If you click on "New Recordings" at the Art Music Forum, it's mentioned in a post on page 1 of the "Duttons for May/June thread.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 05, 2015, 10:41:42 PM
My old friend Nigel Pinkett phoned me out of the blue for a chat yesterday. He's Eric's son. The conversation was dominated by Leicester City and their current situation but we got onto Brian. He said what a memorable occasion it was playing in the Proms Gothic and that there was a great camaraderie and loads of fun when the 2 orchestras got together. I hadn't previously twigged that he would be in it but he left the RPO after 30 years with them and moved to the BBC, hence his involvement. He quite liked the music.Thought I would share this.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2015, 10:46:17 PM
Thanks, John! And so the LSSO/Brian connection goes on.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 05, 2015, 11:07:31 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2015, 10:46:17 PM
Thanks, John! And so the LSSO/Brian connection goes on.
I will buy the Heritage set and send it to him as a pressy. He was chuffed to find out about this latest reincarnation. Very fine cellist, played in the LSSO and left them in 1963 so he's a different generation to me. He was one of the section leaders I used to look at and listen to in awe when I was barely in my teens in the LSSO feeder groups. I remember him in the William Tell overture and thinking "blimey!" We developed a friendship once I started to organise reunions etc 15 years ago. He's very proud of his Dad, of course.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 06, 2015, 08:01:47 AM
Thank you for telling us about this,John. It's nice to think that there was some kind of connection there! :)!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 09, 2015, 03:41:08 PM
Finally made that cd-r of Brian's English suites. For some reason (there appeared to be enough room) I couldn't burn all four,so I settled for Suites 1,3 & 4. Ooh these are entertaining! In fact,they sound even better in sequence. Jam packed with invention,colour,humour,good tunes. I think they are marvelous.In a just world they would be popular and,in their own way,I think they are just as inspired as his best symphonies. In fact,what not to like about Brian's 'lighter' muse? And that has to include The Tinker's Wedding and Festal Dance. What a wonderful,satisfying composer. Who cares what anyone else thinks,I love his music! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2015, 03:51:49 PM
Hear hear!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: jon rady on May 16, 2015, 02:05:23 PM
Hi, ...I have been away a while listening to rather a lot of music lately, from 1600 to 2000 AD, to try and determine what I actually think of Havergal Brian's music in relation to everything else.  Well I think rather a  lot of it now actually... I may be a complete idiot, but there is a heck of a lot of boring stuff out there, lots of 20th C composers who, quite honestly are pretty crap (lets forget the millions of 19th C ones), or at least those that do not hold ones attention.

Conversely, listening to even early  Brian, such as the early English Suites, they are all rather good, and why are they not a staple part of the English classical repertoire.  Quite honestly, even obscure English punk bands from the 1980's get more recognition (I actually quite like some of them).  No 1, to my mind just chucks all the varied criticisms of HB right out of the water - no tunes? etc.  One of his early works and to my ears, a complete mastery of the orchestra is evident  .. ...well that's what it sounds like to me, and if anyone has any specific technical criticisms, then lets hear them...there is too much of, 'oh the bloke did not have a clue what he was doing' comments, even from people who are Brian fans. Can someone come up with some concrete criticisms rather than loads of rather allusive rubbish hearsay from some bloke that happened to play a Brian work in some amateur orchestra in the 70's, (which I have seen on various websites) (present company excepted of course).  Reading lots of stuff, there are a lot of reasons for why Brian's music might be difficult for individual players in orchestras, but I am not convinced that amateurishness (in the derogatory sense) is the reason.  I have just listened to No. 24 at full volume.  Its just absolute Genius.  I don't care if some spotty young horn player has a bit of difficulty getting his mouth round it.  Just listening to lots of works of others, I know that HB could produce the most extraordinary noise from, the brass say, maybe Mahler excepted.   I am now listening to the Burlesque Variations, even earlier, and Ok there are some longeurs, but  the genius, is to my mind, already apparent.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2015, 02:14:14 PM
See p 337 for fellow member Albion's definitive statement about Brian the amateur  (not). I also think Brian's oeuvre is among the most fascinating and entertaining (yes) of the 20th century. It never gets stale. And I have been listening to his music since 1977.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on May 16, 2015, 02:24:35 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2015, 02:14:14 PM
And I have been listening to his music since 1977.


....well, the Gothic is long, it's true. I hope you've taken toilet breaks...  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 16, 2015, 02:32:38 PM
Quote from: Luke on May 16, 2015, 02:24:35 PMI hope you've taken toilet breaks...  ;)

;D

No.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 17, 2015, 03:17:48 AM
Quote from: jon rady on May 16, 2015, 02:05:23 PM
Hi, ...I have been away a while listening to rather a lot of music lately, from 1600 to 2000 AD, to try and determine what I actually think of Havergal Brian's music in relation to everything else.  Well I think rather a  lot of it now actually... I may be a complete idiot, but there is a heck of a lot of boring stuff out there, lots of 20th C composers who, quite honestly are pretty crap (lets forget the millions of 19th C ones), or at least those that do not hold ones attention.

Conversely, listening to even early  Brian, such as the early English Suites, they are all rather good, and why are they not a staple part of the English classical repertoire.  Quite honestly, even obscure English punk bands from the 1980's get more recognition (I actually quite like some of them).  No 1, to my mind just chucks all the varied criticisms of HB right out of the water - no tunes? etc.  One of his early works and to my ears, a complete mastery of the orchestra is evident  .. ...well that's what it sounds like to me, and if anyone has any specific technical criticisms, then lets hear them...there is too much of, 'oh the bloke did not have a clue what he was doing' comments, even from people who are Brian fans. Can someone come up with some concrete criticisms rather than loads of rather allusive rubbish hearsay from some bloke that happened to play a Brian work in some amateur orchestra in the 70's, (which I have seen on various websites) (present company excepted of course).  Reading lots of stuff, there are a lot of reasons for why Brian's music might be difficult for individual players in orchestras, but I am not convinced that amateurishness (in the derogatory sense) is the reason.  I have just listened to No. 24 at full volume.  Its just absolute Genius.  I don't care if some spotty young horn player has a bit of difficulty getting his mouth round it.  Just listening to lots of works of others, I know that HB could produce the most extraordinary noise from, the brass say, maybe Mahler excepted.   I am now listening to the Burlesque Variations, even earlier, and Ok there are some longeurs, but  the genius, is to my mind, already apparent.
It's not purely hearsay. Read what Alan Watkins had to say here and he was a huge fan:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Mar12/Brian_LSSO.htm
Also, Bob Simpson himself was very critical about Brian's orchestration and quirky balances which may or may not have been due to the composer not being able to hear his music in the flesh and therefore not being able to modify his scores. Some of the players at the Proms Gothic - although they loved the experience - were less than glowing in their praise of the orchestral writing. These were articulated on the radio and I've also heard similar comments from friends who took part in the concert. Charles Groves,despite the Liverpool recordings, was less than enthusiastic. There's no point in banging on about specific deficiencies. I can think of nothing more boring but there are deficiencies. Unless you play an instrument it's really hard to explain. The writing is never quite "under the fingers" so to speak. It's also worth bearing in mind that Brian owes an awful lot to amateur orchestras. Indeed, these orchestras bought the music of Brian into the public domain when there was no public appetite for such music. I'm thinking of Heriot School, Hull and Leicestershire here. Even the magnificent Brisbane Gothic was largely amateur and let's not forget Bristol university either. It's not just spotty young horn players (your description not mine) that have issues. The pros do too. 

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 17, 2015, 03:29:11 AM
I wonder who that "bloke" is?!! ;D
Even if you start picking holes in his music,or worrying about this or that,you start listening again,and it's so absorbing. I have listened to all the Dutton cds recently,and I couldn't find a work I didn't enjoy hearing. I think these Dutton and Naxos cds are doing a huge amount for Brian's music. I think they may eventually be seen as ground breakers. Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy nit-picking,though. It shows you are really listening and thinking about what you are listening to. Unlike John,for example,while I do have occasional doubts,as soon as I start listening again,the doubts subside. I mean,why do I go on listening? Why have I got all the Brian cds available (minus the earlier Marco Polo ones,which I think didn't do his music justice). Why have I got a big wad of Brian cdr-s in a box? He keeps pulling me back. Must be a good reason!
I hope these Naxos and Dutton recordings continue. I even think that they should re-do some of the earlier Marco Polo recordings when they have finished doing say,Symphonies 2,and,hopefully No 3,next.

I just saw John's reply,by the way! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 17, 2015, 06:40:30 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 17, 2015, 03:29:11 AM
I wonder who that "bloke" is?!! ;D
Even if you start picking holes in his music,or worrying about this or that,you start listening again,and it's so absorbing. I have listened to all the Dutton cds recently,and I couldn't find a work I didn't enjoy hearing. I think these Dutton and Naxos cds are doing a huge amount for Brian's music. I think they may eventually be seen as ground breakers. Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy nit-picking,though. It shows you are really listening and thinking about what you are listening to. Unlike John,for example,while I do have occasional doubts,as soon as I start listening again,the doubts subside. I mean,why do I go on listening? Why have I got all the Brian cds available (minus the earlier Marco Polo ones,which I think didn't do his music justice). Why have I got a big wad of Brian cdr-s in a box? He keeps pulling me back. Must be a good reason!
I hope these Naxos and Dutton recordings continue. I even think that they should re-do some of the earlier Marco Polo recordings when they have finished doing say,Symphonies 2,and,hopefully No 3,next.

I just saw John's reply,by the way! ??? ;D
Dunno. I decided not to take offence.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on May 17, 2015, 07:09:26 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 17, 2015, 03:29:11 AMEven if you start picking holes in his music,or worrying about this or that,you start listening again,and it's so absorbing. I have listened to all the Dutton cds recently,and I couldn't find a work I didn't enjoy hearing.

The problem I continuously run into with Brian's music is memorability. I think he's an interesting 'in-the-moment' kind of composer, but I soon forget everything I've heard after a work has finished.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 17, 2015, 07:21:33 AM
The problem, if it is that, is Brian's concision. He needs to be 'unpacked', which only repeated hearings can give you. I know most of Brian by heart - so Brian, literally, is a very 'memorable' composer, as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps you need to be attuned to his idiom, an idiom which never posed insurmountable problems for me. I had to struggle with a few of the later symphonies, though; but I knew that the apparent impenetrability would evaporate in due course.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on May 17, 2015, 07:33:17 AM
Likewise - though I couldn't say I know all of Brian by heart, there are many symphonies which I certainly do.  His idiom is potent, to be sure.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on May 17, 2015, 07:49:06 AM
As far as the issue of playabilty goes, (and I've given my views on it before, but so long ago that I've forgotten what I said), it is true, of course that Brian's music is often technically difficult to play, sometimes uncomfortably so. And it is also true that to say 'ah, but so is Elgar/Mahler/Strauss/whoever' is no real answer, because the technical difficulties in Brian are of a different order (it seems to me, looking at the scores I know). Not difficult in that there are reams of notes or extreme registers (a la Strauss/Mahler et al), but just in that they lie uncomfortably, that a passage which looks easy on paper is less so in the flesh. As a performer (incidentally one who actually played in John's old orchestra the LSSO, though quite a few years later (and one who is also celebrating LCFC this weekend, John!)) I'm aware of that; as a composer/listener/musicologish (=one is musicologically inclined!) it doesn't trouble me one bit. In fact, it seems to me to be necessary to his art, to be of-a-piece with all the other aspects of his style - this is inherently awkward music, music of startling, abrupt juxtapositions, rearing melodic basses, galumphing tubas, skittering xylophones. It should be awkward to play, too. That's quite a modernist attitude, in fact, and Brian is ahead of his time here - it makes me think, in fact, of the New Complexity guys, in whose scores the terrifying difficulties impossibilties are partly there in order to make the performers uncomfortable, to make them play for their lives. If Ferneyhough was easy to play, the whole point of his music would disappear (of course you might argue that there's no point to Ferneyhough, but that's another story!) Likewise, if Brian was not awkward, if his music lay smoothly under the hand, then a distinct quality of his music would disappear. One of the main things I, and I suspect most Brianites, love about HB is that unique orchestral sound he makes. The above is a big part of how he makes it IMO
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 17, 2015, 08:33:34 AM
Quote from: Luke on May 17, 2015, 07:49:06 AM
As far as the issue of playabilty goes, (and I've given my views on it before, but so long ago that I've forgotten what I said), it is true, of course that Brian's music is often technically difficult to play, sometimes uncomfortably so. And it is also true that to say 'ah, but so is Elgar/Mahler/Strauss/whoever' is no real answer, because the technical difficulties in Brian are of a different order (it seems to me, looking at the scores I know). Not difficult in that there are reams of notes or extreme registers (a la Strauss/Mahler et al), but just in that they lie uncomfortably, that a passage which looks easy on paper is less so in the flesh. As a performer (incidentally one who actually played in John's old orchestra the LSSO, though quite a few years later (and one who is also celebrating LCFC this weekend, John!)) I'm aware of that; as a composer/listener/musicologish (=one is musicologically inclined!) it doesn't trouble me one bit. In fact, it seems to me to be necessary to his art, to be of-a-piece with all the other aspects of his style - this is inherently awkward music, music of startling, abrupt juxtapositions, rearing melodic basses, galumphing tubas, skittering xylophones. It should be awkward to play, too. That's quite a modernist attitude, in fact, and Brian is ahead of his time here - it makes me think, in fact, of the New Complexity guys, in whose scores the terrifying difficulties impossibilties are partly there in order to make the performers uncomfortable, to make them play for their lives. If Ferneyhough was easy to play, the whole point of his music would disappear (of course you might argue that there's no point to Ferneyhough, but that's another story!) Likewise, if Brian was not awkward, if his music lay smoothly under the hand, then a distinct quality of his music would disappear. One of the main things I, and I suspect most Brianites, love about HB is that unique orchestral sound he makes. The above is a big part of how he makes it IMO
We will wake up in a minute. A staggering achievement,Luke. Truly staggering.The Beethoven 9 of football!!!  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 17, 2015, 08:39:37 AM
Quote from: Luke on May 17, 2015, 07:49:06 AM
As far as the issue of playabilty goes, (and I've given my views on it before, but so long ago that I've forgotten what I said), it is true, of course that Brian's music is often technically difficult to play, sometimes uncomfortably so. And it is also true that to say 'ah, but so is Elgar/Mahler/Strauss/whoever' is no real answer, because the technical difficulties in Brian are of a different order (it seems to me, looking at the scores I know). Not difficult in that there are reams of notes or extreme registers (a la Strauss/Mahler et al), but just in that they lie uncomfortably, that a passage which looks easy on paper is less so in the flesh. As a performer (incidentally one who actually played in John's old orchestra the LSSO, though quite a few years later (and one who is also celebrating LCFC this weekend, John!)) I'm aware of that; as a composer/listener/musicologish (=one is musicologically inclined!) it doesn't trouble me one bit. In fact, it seems to me to be necessary to his art, to be of-a-piece with all the other aspects of his style - this is inherently awkward music, music of startling, abrupt juxtapositions, rearing melodic basses, galumphing tubas, skittering xylophones. It should be awkward to play, too. That's quite a modernist attitude, in fact, and Brian is ahead of his time here - it makes me think, in fact, of the New Complexity guys, in whose scores the terrifying difficulties impossibilties are partly there in order to make the performers uncomfortable, to make them play for their lives. If Ferneyhough was easy to play, the whole point of his music would disappear (of course you might argue that there's no point to Ferneyhough, but that's another story!) Likewise, if Brian was not awkward, if his music lay smoothly under the hand, then a distinct quality of his music would disappear. One of the main things I, and I suspect most Brianites, love about HB is that unique orchestral sound he makes. The above is a big part of how he makes it IMO
A very interesting view, Luke. Brian is awkward but that adds to the music. I can live with that. It's just horrible to play!! When were you in the Foxes Philharmonic by the way? Mid 80s or later?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on May 17, 2015, 08:42:59 AM
Re the first reply - It is, literally, unbelievable, isn't it? And yet, somehow, wonderfully, it is true.  8)

Re the second - a bit later. 1992-4. Not the orchestra at its greatest, but it seemed pretty good to me. We played the Rudolfinum in Prague, Les Invalides in Paris, we premiered major works by Kancheli and Woolrich (both conducted by Brabbins, actually, to continue the Brian theme). It was all in all a fabulous time, but as a fledgling, teenage Brianite I was always well aware that I should have been around a few decades earlier....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 17, 2015, 08:48:32 AM
Quote from: Luke on May 17, 2015, 08:42:59 AM
Re the first reply - It is, literally, unbelievable, isn't it? And yet, somehow, wonderfully, it is true.  8)

Re the second - a bit later. 1992-4. Not the orchestra at its greatest, but it seemed pretty good to me. We played the Rudolfinum in Prague, Les Invalides in Paris, we premiered major works by Kancheli and Woolrich (both conducted by Brabbins, actually, to continue the Brian theme). It was all in all a fabulous time, but as a fledgling, teenage Brianite I was always well aware that I should have been around a few decades earlier....
Have you seen my website revamp? Do you have any pics or recordings from the early 1990s? The only thing I have from your time is Tannhauser/Stuart Johnson De Mont 1990. I need more.... :)  http://www.lsso.co.uk/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 17, 2015, 09:25:29 AM
Quote from: Luke on May 17, 2015, 07:49:06 AMOne of the main things I, and I suspect most Brianites, love about HB is that unique orchestral sound he makes.

YES!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 17, 2015, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 17, 2015, 09:25:29 AM
YES!
Correct.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 17, 2015, 09:51:51 AM
Quote from: jon rady on May 16, 2015, 02:05:23 PM
Hi, ...I have been away a while listening to rather a lot of music lately, from 1600 to 2000 AD, to try and determine what I actually think of Havergal Brian's music in relation to everything else.  Well I think rather a  lot of it now actually... I may be a complete idiot, but there is a heck of a lot of boring stuff out there, lots of 20th C composers who, quite honestly are pretty crap (lets forget the millions of 19th C ones), or at least those that do not hold ones attention.

Conversely, listening to even early  Brian, such as the early English Suites, they are all rather good, and why are they not a staple part of the English classical repertoire.  Quite honestly, even obscure English punk bands from the 1980's get more recognition (I actually quite like some of them).  No 1, to my mind just chucks all the varied criticisms of HB right out of the water - no tunes? etc.  One of his early works and to my ears, a complete mastery of the orchestra is evident  .. ...well that's what it sounds like to me, and if anyone has any specific technical criticisms, then lets hear them...there is too much of, 'oh the bloke did not have a clue what he was doing' comments, even from people who are Brian fans. Can someone come up with some concrete criticisms rather than loads of rather allusive rubbish hearsay from some bloke that happened to play a Brian work in some amateur orchestra in the 70's, (which I have seen on various websites) (present company excepted of course).  Reading lots of stuff, there are a lot of reasons for why Brian's music might be difficult for individual players in orchestras, but I am not convinced that amateurishness (in the derogatory sense) is the reason.  I have just listened to No. 24 at full volume.  Its just absolute Genius.  I don't care if some spotty young horn player has a bit of difficulty getting his mouth round it.  Just listening to lots of works of others, I know that HB could produce the most extraordinary noise from, the brass say, maybe Mahler excepted.   I am now listening to the Burlesque Variations, even earlier, and Ok there are some longeurs, but  the genius, is to my mind, already apparent.
Quick update on this particular spotty individual. Principal horn with the LPO, Covent Garden and Glyndebourne. The boy did well...........
https://youtu.be/771oScrh9WI
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: jon rady on May 17, 2015, 11:57:02 AM
There is a lot of sense in these replies to my rather acerbic post .. its not wise to use the internet after maybe too many glasses of wine!  Apologies for any offense, I got a bit carried away by what I was actually hearing.  On reflection, I cannot be rude about anyone, amateur players in particular, who has a go at these obviously difficult scores, as I cant string 2 notes together.  I would love to know what the Moscow players think of the music and how its written, certainly their playing sounds enthusiastic?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on May 17, 2015, 12:35:13 PM
Quote from: jon rady on May 17, 2015, 11:57:02 AMI would love to know what the Moscow players think of the music and how its written, certainly their playing sounds enthusiastic?

This is one of the chief attractions of the two recent Naxos discs - the playing SOUNDS as though the orchestra believe in every single aspect of the composer's vision. This must, of course, be largely down to the advocacy of Alexander Walker but you can't MAKE an orchestra play (and practise) scores as technically difficult as Brian's with such conviction without enthusiasm from the players themselves (vide the Marco Polo No.2).

Brian says clearly to his performers "quod scripsi, scripsi, and you're either able to bloody well play it or you're not".

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on May 17, 2015, 02:57:18 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 17, 2015, 08:48:32 AM
Have you seen my website revamp? Do you have any pics or recordings from the early 1990s? The only thing I have from your time is Tannhauser/Stuart Johnson De Mont 1990. I need more.... :)  http://www.lsso.co.uk/

Sorry not to get straight back to you. I was leaving the house when you sent that message, for a quite two hour round trip drive which turned into five hours when the car broke down. Very expensive, it looks like. Not a fun evening at all....

Anyway, no recordings, no. It's a shame - I'd love to hear if our Shostakovich 5 was as good as I recall...probably not!

I'm almost positive that I was at that Tannhauser performance, though - in fact I specifically remember the thrill of hearing those trombones in that tune. It was quite formative, in fact. But I wasn't in the orchestra at that date, and I think it must have been one of those end-of-year concerts in which the other, younger, orchestras in the 'pyramid' also got their big night out at the De Mont, looking up at the LSSO players with awe! That would explain why I was there - I hadn't graduated to the top band yet. I remember hearing them do Romeo and Juliet and Till Eulenspiegel in similar circumstances. To return to our earlier theme, I remember that this particular concert in 1993 (by which time I was playing too - I think we did Tchaikovsky, the Mouse King battle from Nutcracker, among other things....) was overshadowed for me and a few other players by the 7-1 defeat at the hand of Newcastle earlier that day. Remember that one? How things change!  ;)

Somewhere I have three formal pics of the orchestra. Two are in Paris, one outside Les Invalides before the final concert of our tour and one during the applause at the end - that would be August 1993, I think, SJ's final concert, a very emotional one, climaxing with that memorable Shostakovich 5. The other is the regulation annual orchestra photo of the next year's orchestra, which means it can only be a few months later. I don't know where any of these are OTTOMH, though I'm sure they are somewhere. Meantime, I do have this very, very, very low res scan of the post-concert Les Invalides one; I'm the last blur on the right in the cello section, desk 4  ;) :

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on May 17, 2015, 03:03:43 PM
Quote from: Luke on May 17, 2015, 02:57:18 PM
I remember hearing them do Romeo and Juliet and Till Eulenspiegel in similar circumstances.

...and also - it's all coming back to me now - at least one of The Planets (I remember Mars) and a symphony which, bizarrely enough, I've always remembered with bemusement as being by Roy Harris and numbered Symphony no 7 1/2!! But I've also known that this can't be right and indeed Google strongly hints to me that it must have been Don Gillis, Symphony no 5 1/2. So that little mystery is cleared up anyway...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 17, 2015, 10:40:03 PM
Luke, so that we don't take this board over,please send me an email via the LSSO website and we can exchange messages there. I can send you the Tannhauser recording if you like.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 18, 2015, 12:36:21 AM
Quote from: jon rady on May 17, 2015, 11:57:02 AM
There is a lot of sense in these replies to my rather acerbic post .. its not wise to use the internet after maybe too many glasses of wine!  Apologies for any offense, I got a bit carried away by what I was actually hearing.  On reflection, I cannot be rude about anyone, amateur players in particular, who has a go at these obviously difficult scores, as I cant string 2 notes together. I would love to know what the Moscow players think of the music and how its written, certainly their playing sounds enthusiastic?
My gut feeling is that are simply doing their jobs. Orchestras play whatever they are given to play and do it to the best of their ability. Liking or disliking the actual music doesn't come into it. Amateurs and kids tend to put in a more enthusiastic shift if they like the music. Pros just play the stuff and get paid. The Moscow band is clearly very good but the credit for the final result has to lie with the conductor. He loves the music and he gets the best out of his players. A dull unmotivated conductor would have had a different outcome. The orchestral players will have the same views as the general public - some will like the music, some will put up with it and others will dislike it. They are people doing a job and they have different musical tastes.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on May 22, 2015, 08:13:21 AM
There's a very, very good review in the latest, much improved, Gramophone magazine of the latest Brabbins, Brian CD by Guy Rickards. I don't have it to hand to replicate but will do so if nobody gets there before me; it's one of the best.
I think he is a fan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 22, 2015, 08:52:00 AM
Guy Rickards is a long-standing member of the HBS...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 22, 2015, 08:52:37 AM
Are you a subscriber,Hattoff? My local WH Smiths only had the May issue! And I've only just bought that,really! Funny,as soon as I start buying Gramophone again IRR Magazine comes to an end. A coincidence,of course! I thought Gramophone had improved. It's still populist stuff compared to IRR's in depth approach,though. A potentially interesting article on Welsh composers (for example) confined to a single page and the next page devoted to a list of,mostly,pictures of cd sleeves,with a smattering of text. None of that celebrity c***,though....and hopefully,no more of those ludicrous covers showing how Beethoven would be dressed if he was alive today or how Havergal Brian would look if he was a Goth!! ??? ;D (The other kind! ;D )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 22, 2015, 02:08:42 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 22, 2015, 08:52:00 AM
Guy Rickards is a long-standing member of the HBS...

Erratum: It seems Guy Rickards loves HB, without still being an HBS member...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 22, 2015, 02:16:01 PM
I'm not a member,but I love Havergal Brian! ;D

HOLD THAT GRAMOPHONE!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 22, 2015, 02:19:15 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 22, 2015, 02:16:01 PM
I'm not a member,but I love Havergal Brian! ;D

A sin of omission is still sin. Get thee to a confessional!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on May 22, 2015, 02:20:33 PM
I forswore the Gramophone about twenty years ago. The Brian review was shown to me by a friend. The magazine has definitely improved from the rag it was. I'll buy the June issue tomorrow and copy the review here.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on May 22, 2015, 02:33:06 PM
It's just as well that Guy Rickards is not a member; he can't be accused of bias. Some critics don't see us aficionados as the loveable tykes we really are. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 22, 2015, 02:37:35 PM
Fair point.

'Loveable tykes'... Yes.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 22, 2015, 03:33:46 PM
Quote from: Hattoff on May 22, 2015, 02:33:06 PM
It's just as well that Guy Rickards is not a member; he can't be accused of bias. Some critics don't see us aficionados as the loveable tykes we really are. :)
So,that makes two of us! And yes,we are loveable! Put 'em up Andrew Clements....put em up,I say!! Rrrruuuff!! >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 22, 2015, 03:34:47 PM
Is he bigger than me?!! ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 28, 2015, 02:44:45 AM
The initial experience of Brian's music,described in this Musicweb review:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/May/Brian_sys_8573408.htm

"At first hearing Brian's music can seem too dark, over dense and rather impenetrable...."

I remember being disappointed by my off-air cassette of the Schmidt Gothic....feeling that the choral music sounded opaque and 'samey'! I ended up being able to hum most of the work all the way through. It fact,I have since come to regard the Gothic as one of the most tuneful choral works I know. The later symphonies took allot longer and I still can't hum them,but it's probably a good thing!! ;D

Other composers you persevere with and end up admitting defeat......or that there just isn't enough substance to justify any more of your time. Holbrooke,for example,intrigues me;and I do enjoy some of his music;but I can't say I want to spend hours immersed in it. Errki Melartin? Wow!! I want to hear more!! Daniel Jones? Now,he's another self contained hinterland with multiple layers waiting to be peeled systematically away. He pulls me in! York Bowen? Phuuuut! Well crafted,tuneful,urbane,he dries to be deep,but I think I'll stick to Ireland,Bridge,Bax and Scott! Bax? Now,he's got his own special universe!! Spohr? Mmmmm! Now,he is really satisfying!!
It's all just a question of taste,I suppose;but some composers have it and some just don't. I think with Brian,part of the 'appeal' for me is the feeling of all those multiple layers.Teasing them all apart in your mind. A cryptic crossword,as someone once described his muse. Bach is another example. The complexity of those keyboard works can keep your mind occupied for hours. Brahms,likewise. Not that there's anything wrong with a composer who just composes straight forward tuneful music. Gershwin and Johann Strauss can be immensely rewarding if you are in the right mood.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 28, 2015, 03:05:17 AM
Thanks for the link, cilgwyn! I am in agreement with most of what Cookson says. My only disappointment is with this: "Not for the faint-hearted this uncompromising work is rife with determination, high energy and dark menace." What the... ?!? Symphony No. 6? I wish he would have said that it is one of Brian's most accessible creations.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on May 28, 2015, 03:14:40 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 28, 2015, 03:05:17 AM
I wish he would have said that it is one of Brian's most accessible creations.

Well, you never know. Some people are driven away by "most accessible" music, you know...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 28, 2015, 06:09:58 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 28, 2015, 03:05:17 AM
Thanks for the link, cilgwyn! I am in agreement with most of what Cookson says. My only disappointment is with this: "Not for the faint-hearted this uncompromising work is rife with determination, high energy and dark menace." What the... ?!? Symphony No. 6? I wish he would have said that it is one of Brian's most accessible creations.
Wierd! ??? Knowing Brian's music as I do,from years of listening to it;I would have thought it would be the other way around! Maybe,I'm just a bit dense myself  ;D but the Sixth was one of the symphonies I found the easiest to crack...........if not the most immediately accessible of all!!

I must be missing something! ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on May 28, 2015, 12:02:05 PM
"Lasting slightly less than twenty-minutes the opening work is the Symphony No. 6 titled Sinfonia Tragica. This single movement score marked Brian's first entirely instrumental symphony..."

Oh - did I miss the choral bits of 2 and 3?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 28, 2015, 12:19:54 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on May 28, 2015, 12:02:05 PM
"Lasting slightly less than twenty-minutes the opening work is the Symphony No. 6 titled Sinfonia Tragica. This single movement score marked Brian's first entirely instrumental symphony..."

Oh - did I miss the choral bits of 2 and 3?

That's not wholly fair to the reviewer (though I'd appreciate the joke if the quote ended there). He continues:

written in his newly conceived concise and economical style that he was to employ regularly over the next twenty years.

   
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 28, 2015, 03:00:36 PM
I'll get my crash helmet ready for my next hearing of the "not for the faint hearted" sixth......just in case?!! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 28, 2015, 03:08:27 PM
  :laugh:
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on May 28, 2015, 03:37:13 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 28, 2015, 06:09:58 AM
Wierd! ??? Knowing Brian's music as I do,from years of listening to it;I would have thought it would be the other way around! Maybe,I'm just a bit dense myself  ;D but the Sixth was one of the symphonies I found the easiest to crack...........if not the most immediately accessible of all!!

I must be missing something! ???

Conventional logic would say that if Brian = difficult then the most 'Brianic' of symphonies would = the most difficult. But, oddly, for me the very easiest symphony of all to 'get' is also the one which is perhaps the most concentrated expression of Brian at his most extreme - the 8th. For large areas of the piece there's nothing but juxtaposition of wildly contrasting elements, each fully imagined and wondrously scored, one following the other and sending the next one to an even further extreme. It's utterly dazzling, completely compelling, rigorously shaped, and it just works. This is a symphony totally reimagined from first principles by a man who had symphonism running through his veins. It's emphatically a symphony, it breathes the feeling of 'symphony' from first note to last (it reminds me of Sibelius 7 in this respect), and yet there's virtually no trace of 'tradition' in it, nothing to compare it to, nothing to relate it to other than itself. It just sears itself on your mind without reference to any other world than the one it is creating before you. 100% Brian and no hint of anyone else - perhaps that radical simplicity of style (though not of content!) is why it is such an appealing work, and that also suggests that the 'difficulty' with Brian is not his style per se but the contexts he presents it in...

There's a table near the end of MM's vol 3 which gives his own family-tree division of the symphonies on this scale of 'classical' to 'radical' - and note, it's not a ranking of quality, just an indication of type. He puts the 8th right at the pivotal point of the radical side of the tree, giving birth to #10 and to the Elegy, from which, as MM sees it, all the more radical later works issue. This suggests to me that when I'm responding to what I feel to be an overwhelming sense of radical, fecund potential in #8, the boiling down of style to its essentials, I'm mirroring what MM says about the symphonies. (I should add that I fell head-over-heels in love with #8 years before I read MM's vol 3, or indeed vol 1.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 28, 2015, 03:45:57 PM
Food for thought. Thanks, Luke. On a more personal note: Brian's symphonism has, in its turn, been running through my veins for decades and I can see its fruits in my style and my structures as a writer. What you say about the Eighth weirdly applies to the climactic pages I am writing at the moment, where multiple perspectives are radically interwoven and clash, without any recourse to traditional narrative methods. (And in an extremely condensed style, paragraphs only one line each.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on May 28, 2015, 03:58:10 PM
I completely understand that - and the idea that you have reached the 'climactic pages' is very exciting! In my own much, much lesser way I've been writing something of my own recently, about which I make no claims whatsoever. I bring it up only to mention that I too have been very aware - too aware, perhaps - that I'm constructing it like a composer, that as I slowly put my paragraphs together I think like a musician, introducing themes, repeating them, developing them, combining them, transferring them from one character to another etc. etc.. Weirdly enough I have a feeling - unsubstantiated as yet by any concrete results - that writing the book will feed back into my composition, too. In many ways that's why I've written it - to promote new composing. As a composer I'm very aware that I suffer from the short-windedness of my ideas, from the epigrammatic quality of what I write. I'm not good at scale, at letting things grow, at introducing lots of material and letting it develop. Writing the book has taught me how to go off on a tangent (but to keep it relevant), how repetition and growth can occur and feed off each other - things I knew consciously, but which I wasn't very good at letting happen on manuscript paper. Well, you have to let them happen in literature, and I'm fairly hopeful that this experience will rub off on my composing too. We'll see...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 28, 2015, 04:05:53 PM
Interesting. I had the same problem as a younger writer: I had loads of ideas and an extremely compact style. How to tell a story, when you are so 'vertical', is the problem I now have solved. It has been a long road... Good luck with your endeavors!

My bed beckons...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sean on May 30, 2015, 01:11:44 AM
You describe holistically structured music well, Luke! Wagner, Bach, Schumann, Bax, the minimalists and others variously focus on aesthetic content per se without getting lost in formal framing imposed from without; the attention finds its spiritual self instead of being drawn to intellectual structures. (The critical theorists of course got things the wrong way round.)

I also spend much of my time writing and though I make plenty of points I've long since seen architectonic, premises and conclusion, argumentation as a bit silly and immature. It doesn't access truth and instead becomes a formal game inviting interminable responses; there's a John Cage quote on this I can't quite remember...

Can't agree so much about Brian though! My eyes boggle at the length of this daft thread.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on June 04, 2015, 01:41:15 AM
I see the recent performance of English Suite 3 given at the English Music Festival in May by the BBC Concert Orchestra under Martin Yates will be broadcast on BBC Radio 3 next week, on the 9th June at around 3.30 pm.  It will be interesting to hear a different interpretation from the Brabbins disc.  Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05xqbq0

The remainder of the concert is the following afternoon.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 04, 2015, 02:12:20 AM
I got a message from the HBS about the upcoming broadcast. Thanks for alerting the others here to it, Augustus!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 04, 2015, 08:27:04 AM
Thanks for alerting us,Augustus. I did notice something when I was flicking through the R3 schedules on my tv,but it somehow slipped my mind & it didn't say what it was! The English suites are lovely works and deserve more hearings. As you say it will be interesting to hear another interpretation. I just got one of the EM cds a few days ago. Violin Sonatas by Bantock,Scott and Sacheverell Coke. Beautifully produced,excellent sound quality and fascinating booklet notes with some lovely photographs. Wonderful music,too. Unfortunately ;D, I was so pleased,I couldn't resist purchasing their Holbrooke/Bantock cd,as well!! I'm glad they're doing some Brian at the EMF. Hopefully,some more will follow in another Festival year!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on June 14, 2015, 12:39:07 PM
Did anyone listen to the broadcast of English Suite 3 last week?  It's still available for replay for another 24 days at the link I posted above.  I thought it compared well with the Brabbins recording and came off surprisingly well.  I bet it's not easy to rehearse.

What did others think?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 14, 2015, 12:47:11 PM
I listened. I found the tempi, brisker than in the Brabbins, quite natural. A pity the sound picture wasn't as clear and spacious as in the recording. This new performance won't supersede the older one, but it certainly has the virtue of showing Brian's orchestral  inventiveness.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 15, 2015, 12:25:27 PM
Quote from: Augustus on June 14, 2015, 12:39:07 PM
Did anyone listen to the broadcast of English Suite 3 last week?  It's still available for replay for another 24 days at the link I posted above.  I thought it compared well with the Brabbins recording and came off surprisingly well.  I bet it's not easy to rehearse.

What did others think?
I enjoyed it. Uncomplicated music. Nothing especially memorable but a pleasant little suite with immediate appeal. Won't have done the Brian cause any harm at all. Not taxing to play and sounds great fun to perform. The brass didn't have a particularly glorious day but hey ho. Much prefer it to the 5th Suite.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 18, 2015, 01:26:34 PM
In case anyone hasn't seen this review. Lots of detail here. I'm missing IRR Magazine already!

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/June/Brian_sys_CDLX7314.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 18, 2015, 01:40:54 PM
Many thanks, cilgwyn! An excellent review. John Quinn doesn't 'get' the final movement of No. 27. My comment: it 'simply' continues the first one - there is a lot of violence in that movement, which Quinn seems to have overheard; the finale brings the violence to a head and then manages to reach a measure of tranquility.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 23, 2015, 08:22:15 AM
Very interesting to see Guy Rickards review of the Naxos cd in  the July Gramophone. I only got my copy today!! ::)  "A marvellously nuanced Russian sounding performance,with some occasionally Shostakovichian brass". Indeed! It makes me want to hear them in No's 8 or 9;or even No 7? It really does add another dimension to these works. I remember thinking,what would Svetlanov have made of one of these works. (You would have had the old style soviet brass,of course;which I always rather liked) I also was interested to read his observation that only a 'single side-drummer seems to be used,instead of the three Brian required". He goes on to observe that (because of this) "the tramp of doom that gradually overtakes the music does not have the bite Brian wanted,and Fredman delivered." I'm just a listener,so I'm no expert on this;but I do remember (in a post made at the time of the Naxos release) expressing my feeling (in so many words) that when the violence finally erupted,it didn't seem to have quite the cumulative power that the Lyrita performance possessed. I certainly do still feel more oppressiveness and menace in the Fredman recording;so it is interesting that someone else shares these reservations,even if it does ultimately feel like ungrateful nit-picking. After all,even if you have minor reservations about this and that,there is so much to enjoy in the Naxos performance. As in all the best recordings of a piece of music,it provides fresh insight,a new slant on an old friend. You learn something new from it!
I was also pleased to see that Havergal Brian is also included in the review of the recent 24 cd emi/Warner Sir Charles Groves set by James Jolly,who describes Symphonies 8 & 9 as "remarkable at times visionary music and Groves does it proud,tuning into the often strange sonorities."  Just waiting for that Russian brass,I might add! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 23, 2015, 09:08:52 AM
Good post, cilgwyn! It seems a bit churlish, I agree, to be critical when there is so much to applaud and enjoy. As you say, any new performance of a Brian symphony reveals characteristics you wouldn't be able to become aware of otherwise. The Naxos Tragica hasn't replaced the Lyrita for me. Both are now essential. I also share your wish the Russians could do a few other symphonies we think we know...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 23, 2015, 10:54:44 AM
Rickards also observes that (in comparison to Fredman) "the solo trumpeter is too loud and forwardly placed,so that his early fanfares lack the mystery they need". I'm definitely going to have to listen to the cd again,now!
And I shouldn't have forgotten Symphony No 28! This is one of the symphonies that was most in need of a recording (I gather) because Stokowski did a notoriously botched job. Though,I seem to recall that someone here said they quite liked the performance? A lone supporter! Guy Rickards refers to the Stokowski as...."a performance that in places amounted to a complete misreading." Interestingly,I have noticed that most of the archived broadcast recordings of Brian tend to be good ones.Allot of them very good indeed! In fact,apart from this Stokowski performance I can't think of any really bad ones. Can you? Or anyone else here,for that matter! I'm referring to broadcast performances of course,not commercially released ones. I suppose Stokowski's twenty eighth could be ranked with the Marco Polo Second as the worst ever. Or is that one worse?! ::)
Unsurprisingly,Rickards likes the new perfomance."No 28 emerges as wonderfully compelling,with it's alternation of the violent and lyrical."

I hope there will be a follow up! That said,we have got the Dutton Second to look forward to. Unless,Richard Itter made some off air recordings? I presume you're aware of the exciting new venture from Lyrita utilising Itter's own incredible sounding archive. Would this be a possibility? He could have recorded some Brian broadcasts? I'm hoping for some Daniel Jones symphonies from that source.

http://www.lyrita.co.uk/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2015, 11:00:47 AM
Oops, at first I read that as, And I should have forgotten Symphony No 28!   0:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 23, 2015, 12:25:48 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 23, 2015, 10:54:44 AM
Rickards also observes that (in comparison to Fredman) "the solo trumpeter is too loud and forwardly placed,so that his early fanfares lack the mystery they need".

Yes, that's true. Which is why I got a Petrushka vibe. The trumpet almost becomes a character.

QuoteAnd I shouldn't have forgotten Symphony No 28! This is one of the symphonies that was most in need of a recording (I gather) because Stokowski did a notoriously botched job. (...) Guy Rickards refers to the Stokowski as...."a performance that in places amounted to a complete misreading."

Also correct.

Quote(...) apart from this Stokowski performance I can't think of any really bad ones. Can you? Or anyone else here,for that matter! I'm referring to broadcast performances of course,not commercially released ones. I suppose Stokowski's twenty eighth could be ranked with the Marco Polo Second as the worst ever. Or is that one worse?! ::)

Both have the same mixture of good and miserably bad.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on June 24, 2015, 11:21:18 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 23, 2015, 10:54:44 AM
Rickards also observes that (in comparison to Fredman) "the solo trumpeter is too loud and forwardly placed,so that his early fanfares lack the mystery they need". I'm definitely going to have to listen to the cd again,now!
And I shouldn't have forgotten Symphony No 28! This is one of the symphonies that was most in need of a recording (I gather) because Stokowski did a notoriously botched job. Though,I seem to recall that someone here said they quite liked the performance? A lone supporter! Guy Rickards refers to the Stokowski as...."a performance that in places amounted to a complete misreading." Interestingly,I have noticed that most of the archived broadcast recordings of Brian tend to be good ones.Allot of them very good indeed! In fact,apart from this Stokowski performance I can't think of any really bad ones. Can you? Or anyone else here,for that matter! I'm referring to broadcast performances of course,not commercially released ones. I suppose Stokowski's twenty eighth could be ranked with the Marco Polo Second as the worst ever. Or is that one worse?! ::)
Unsurprisingly,Rickards likes the new perfomance."No 28 emerges as wonderfully compelling,with it's alternation of the violent and lyrical."

I hope there will be a follow up! That said,we have got the Dutton Second to look forward to. Unless,Richard Itter made some off air recordings? I presume you're aware of the exciting new venture from Lyrita utilising Itter's own incredible sounding archive. Would this be a possibility? He could have recorded some Brian broadcasts? I'm hoping for some Daniel Jones symphonies from that source.

http://www.lyrita.co.uk/
Having done some work for Cameo Classics via Nimbus I've just fired off an email and asked the question. I will update as and when I get an answer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 25, 2015, 07:35:58 AM
Thanks John,it will be interesting to hear their response. Finally,another Brian release in their catalogue?!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 25, 2015, 07:45:34 PM
I can feel some unanticipated expenses coming on.\
;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 06, 2015, 12:45:32 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 25, 2015, 07:35:58 AM
Thanks John,it will be interesting to hear their response. Finally,another Brian release in their catalogue?!!
I've had a reply. There are tape boxes marked symphonies, concertos and also maybe an opera. The tapes themselves haven't been checked out but there will be some Brian releases on Lyrita, almost certainly. I'm really hoping that the Holmes fiddle concerto is there in quality sound, as good as the Aries/Klassic Haus issue has served us. Let's just see.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 06, 2015, 10:45:19 AM
Thanks for the update,John! I would have thought Lyrita would be keen to tap into the recent upsurge of interest in Brian from the smaller cd labels. 'The Tigers' can't be high on their agenda,since it's already been 'done',very nicely indeed;but 'Agamemnon' and the 'Prologue from Faust' were broadcast on the Beeb. The copies of the 'Agamemnon' I have heard have been amongst the poorest I have heard. It would be nice to hear it properly,at last! The Holmes 'Violin Concerto' would be high on my list,as would the fantastic Pope third;followed by,in order of favouritism ;D (here,anyway!) the Mackerras Second and the Newstone Seventh. I also think a cd of some of the later symphonies would be very rewarding. Some of those archive performances really are how these symphonies should be heard. But not the Stokowski,please!! ??? Or maybe they could bring out a cd of the Poole performance of that great favourite of yours,John....'Das Siegeslied'! I know you prefer it to that hack job,by William Walton!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 23, 2015, 02:39:06 PM
Just spotted this review on Musicweb. Well,just in case someone hasn't seen it!! ;D

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/Jul/Brian_sys_8573408.htm

A bit late to really digest,now,I fear (yawning!) through half closed eyelids!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 23, 2015, 02:41:28 PM
Thanks, cilgwyn! Will read it tomorrow!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on July 24, 2015, 12:14:02 AM
(Post edited) The sudden upsurge in Brian recordings currently taking place is remarkable! With a few gaps plugged in recently, we now find ourselves in a situation where only two of his 32 symphonies do not have a recording currently available (14 & 26). Also, we are able to compare THREE recordings of the monumental "Gothic". Fine times indeed to be a Brian fan!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2015, 12:19:57 AM
It's even better than you think: Symphonies 19 and 27 have been recorded  (along with 5, Wine of Summer) by Martyn Brabbins on Dutton. ..
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 24, 2015, 01:29:13 AM
Let alone,the 'Gothic' at the Proms! And of course,Dutton's recording of Symphonies 2 & 14,to be recorded later this year,I believe. Two of my favourites on one cd! Great times for Brianites! A pity that some other composers continue to get ignored by the cd labels,of course. Daniel Jones,for example. We really should have had a cycle by now. Maybe the Richard Itter Archives releases on Lyrita will come up trumps? And some Brian?!!! The BBC broadcast loads,thanks to Robert Simpson......then it all seemed to dry up!! :( There's also one or two Joseph Holbrooke fans out here,believe it or not!! ??? (The composer,not the jazz combo!)
Now to read that Musicweb review..........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on July 24, 2015, 03:23:49 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2015, 12:19:57 AM
It's even better than you think: Symphonies 19 and 27 have been recorded  (along with 5, Wine of Summer) by Martyn Brabbins on Dutton. ..

I forgot about that. Corrected my earlier post.

14 is being recorded as well?! So that will only leave No. 26 left to be recorded.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on August 15, 2015, 01:26:48 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 25, 2015, 07:45:34 PM
I can feel some unanticipated expenses coming on.\  ;)

:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 29, 2015, 07:07:05 AM
Great to see a thread going for 343 pages on this unique composer! Even more noteworthy that it is still on track.  ;)

I'm a newer Brian fan, have only known his work for about 15 years now, and that mostly through the incomplete Marco Polo series plus Lionel Friend's 3rd on Hyperion - still my favorite Brian symphony by leaps and bounds. This summer I finally filled a large gap in my Brian experience by ordering a used copy of the EMI twofer containing 7-9 & 31, which for many years was unavailable in the States for less than an arm and a leg. It always takes me several listenings to really digest a new-to-me Brian symphony but I was pretty much immediately awestruck by how fresh and new and innovative this music sounds, even by comparison with later Brian works also in his concise, allusive late style. Not sure if it is just my fresh ears or if the newness of the musical language as Brian embarked on his 20 year odyssey isn't a big part of what makes this music so exciting, much as (to my ears again, at any rate) the 3 Piano Pieces and Pierrot sound so fresh and ripe with limitless possibilties, before Schoenberg  worked out the underlying theory and started writing using the 12-tone technique. But I digress...

So in addition to the (sadly incomplete) Marco Polo Brian cycle and the EMI 7-9 + 31, I now have the Fredman 6 and 16, the Brabbins 10 and 30 plus the Concerto for Orchestra and the Wine of Summer plus 19 and 27 on Dutton, and the astounding Walker 22-24 and 6, 28, 29, 31. There is an old recording of 10 and 21 by Loughran on Unicorn that seems to be available only used, can anyone comment on the quality? I have not heard No. 21, and I'm not aware of any extant recordings of 13 or 14 on CD (alas my old turntable is no more, so no vinyl for me). Am I correct that No. 26 has never been recorded? Or at least released commercially? Any other new Brian recordings to recommend?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 29, 2015, 08:22:40 AM
Quote from: krummholz on August 29, 2015, 07:07:05 AMAm I correct that No. 26 has never been recorded? Or at least released commercially?

There is a mp3 download (of a radio broadcast). Handley and the New Philharmonia. I acquired it from Johan (J.Z. Herrenberg) but I don't know if he's still making it available. Hopefully someone here will point you towards a source.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 29, 2015, 08:58:12 AM
Dear Krummholz, welcome aboard! Re the LSSO recording of 10 & 21, I can recommend it unreservedly. Fortunately, it has recently been reissued and in much better sound. Simply do a search on the Internet (I don't have a link at hand). Perhaps LSSO expert John Whitmore can join us here, too. As for 26, I have an mp3 of the only performance ever (1976). Send me an email at herrenberg@gmail.com...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 29, 2015, 04:38:17 PM
Thanks for the replies! The reason I had doubts about the Unicorn is that I thought I'd read earlier in the thread that the 10th was still awaiting a professional performance on record, and the Loughran dates from the 1980s, I think.

J. Z. Herrenberg, email sent. Thank you!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 29, 2015, 08:16:05 PM
Email sent.

BTW,  a new recording of no. 10 is there, coupled with 30 and two other works. An excellent CD on the Dutton label. For the current state of Brian recordings, I'd check the site of the Havergal Brian Society.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 30, 2015, 02:21:50 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 29, 2015, 08:58:12 AM
Dear Krummholz, welcome aboard! Re the LSSO recording of 10 & 21, I can recommend it unreservedly. Fortunately, it has recently been reissued and in much better sound. Simply do a search on the Internet (I don't have a link at hand). Perhaps LSSO expert John Whitmore can join us here, too. As for 26, I have an mp3 of the only performance ever (1976). Send me an email at herrenberg@gmail.com...
Here's the link to the 1972 LSSO 10/21 coupled with their later 1974 CBS LP on the Heritage label. Fully restored from the original masters. After years of trying I finally managed to locate the CBS masters and got in touch with the HBS and Heritage who then decided to release it along with the Unicorn. I'm very biased but I still think that the Loughran 10 is the best interpretation and the playing is never less than good. The LSSO No.22 also holds its place very well. Sound quality is very good analogue. I like being an expert. That's a first!"!  :D I have also included a link to the LSSO Unknown Warrior film which you will enjoy. This is part 1 of 3. You will find the other parts once you watch this.

http://www.heritage-records.com/classical-orchestral-cd-album-titles/havergal-brian-the-first-commercial-recordings

https://youtu.be/9f7_wiFeDIU
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 30, 2015, 02:26:42 AM
Ta very much, John.

And yes, you really are an LSSO expert.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 30, 2015, 03:05:41 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 30, 2015, 02:26:42 AM
Ta very much, John.

And yes, you really are an LSSO expert.
Blimey. Do I get a salary, pension and company car? By the way, Krummholz, I uploaded a vinyl transfer of the LSSO 10 some time ago. Here's the link. Judge for yourself before you buy it. Also, beware getting the earlier Unicorn CD issues second hand on Ebay. The transfer is dry and horrible. The new Heritage double CD set sounds more like the vinyl and is far superior. The Heritage CBS transfer is also superb compared to the original and quite dreadfully toppy CBS vinyl pressing. If you wish to read archive info relating to these Brian recordings here's a link to my website:
http://www.lsso.co.uk/LSSO%20Brian%20for%20web.htm
Upload of symphony 10
https://youtu.be/Koaa9O7zznU
End of advertising campaign!  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on August 30, 2015, 03:09:22 AM
Quote from: krummholz on August 29, 2015, 07:07:05 AM
...  and I'm not aware of any extant recordings of 13 or 14 on CD

I don't think anyone has yet pointed out Symphony 13 is on Dutton, with the Violin Concerto, English Suite 4 and The Tinker's Wedding overture.  On symphonies we await only 14, 26 and a professional recording of 21, good though the pioneering LSSO disc is. 

I believe 14 is being recorded sometime this autumn for Dutton with Sym 2.  On past form, that should see the disc issued fairly early next year.  That will mean Brabbins will have recorded as many as nine of the Symphonies: 1, 2, 5, 10, 13, 14, 19, 27 and 30.  That's surely more than any other conductor?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 30, 2015, 03:16:33 AM
By the way, Krummholz, here's something else that might interest you. Go to this link:
http://www.klassichaus.us/
and then open the Brian section on the tab called "Collaborations".These are LP transfers that I was involved in producing.The downloads are as cheap as chips and well worth a listen. I hope agent Herrenberg will agree. If you are interested in trying one out I would go for the wonderful version of No.3. It's a classic in excellent sound.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 30, 2015, 03:21:22 AM
Thanks for helping out, Augustus. I am busy.

Quote from: Augustus on August 30, 2015, 03:09:22 AMThat will mean Brabbins will have recorded as many as nine of the Symphonies: 1, 2, 5, 10, 13, 14, 19, 27 and 30.  That's surely more than any other conductor?

I think so, too.

Quote from: John Whitmore on August 30, 2015, 03:16:33 AMThe downloads are as cheap as chips and well worth a listen. I hope agent Herrenberg will agree. If you are interested in trying one out I would go for the wonderful version of No.3. It's a classic in excellent sound.

Yep.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 30, 2015, 09:44:53 AM
Quote from: Augustus on August 30, 2015, 03:09:22 AM
I don't think anyone has yet pointed out Symphony 13 is on Dutton, with the Violin Concerto, English Suite 4 and The Tinker's Wedding overture.  On symphonies we await only 14, 26 and a professional recording of 21, good though the pioneering LSSO disc is.
I didn't realize that, but now see that the Dutton 13 is indeed available on Amazon over here. I stand corrected, thank you!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 30, 2015, 09:53:24 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 30, 2015, 03:05:41 AM
Blimey. Do I get a salary, pension and company car? By the way, Krummholz, I uploaded a vinyl transfer of the LSSO 10 some time ago. Here's the link. Judge for yourself before you buy it. Also, beware getting the earlier Unicorn CD issues second hand on Ebay. The transfer is dry and horrible. The new Heritage double CD set sounds more like the vinyl and is far superior. The Heritage CBS transfer is also superb compared to the original and quite dreadfully toppy CBS vinyl pressing. If you wish to read archive info relating to these Brian recordings here's a link to my website:
http://www.lsso.co.uk/LSSO%20Brian%20for%20web.htm
Upload of symphony 10
https://youtu.be/Koaa9O7zznU
End of advertising campaign!  :)
Argh, John, thanks for the warning. The older Unicorn CD issue is indeed the one I was thinking of buying. As of yet the 2-CD reissue does not seem to be available over here and I'm not sure what extra charges would be involved in ordering from amazon.uk. Prestoclassical.uk might be the way to go as they disclose details for dispatches to the US.

Will check out the collaborations page you linked to later...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 30, 2015, 09:57:18 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 29, 2015, 08:16:05 PM
Email sent.

BTW,  a new recording of no. 10 is there, coupled with 30 and two other works. An excellent CD on the Dutton label. For the current state of Brian recordings, I'd check the site of the Havergal Brian Society.

Yes, I have the Brabbins 10/30 on Dutton and love it, especially the 10th. The real eye-opener for me on that release was actually the Concerto for Orchestra. I need to listen to it again soon...

Thanks to all for the help and recommendations! I appreciate them very much.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 30, 2015, 10:14:48 AM
Quote from: krummholz on August 30, 2015, 09:53:24 AM
Argh, John, thanks for the warning. The older Unicorn CD issue is indeed the one I was thinking of buying. As of yet the 2-CD reissue does not seem to be available over here and I'm not sure what extra charges would be involved in ordering from amazon.uk. Prestoclassical.uk might be the way to go as they disclose details for dispatches to the US.

Will check out the collaborations page you linked to later...
If you buy the Unicorn CD just use it as a drinks coaster.You would be far better off with the vinyl. Send an email to Tim Grocott at Heritage via their website - we worked together on the reissue and maybe he can help you get hold of the new set. It's well worth buying.In the meantime here's a link to a pdf file containing some of my LSSO press cuttings. You might enjoy it.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/0zg9buwbbbwxxb9/The_LSSO_Havergal_Brian_recordings.pdf
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on September 10, 2015, 10:55:04 AM
https://twitter.com/RSNO?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
See 5 Sept entry

Knowing the RSNO are due to record Brian 2 & 14 sometime this autumn, a friend of mine just called my attention to this picture posted 5 September on the RSNO Twitter feed.  Could this be the recording session for Brian's 2nd?  There seem to be two pianos in front of the orchestra, an organ and a positive multiplicity of horns in the side stalls which could suggest the "Battle scherzo"?  Is there any other work that might explain these forces?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on September 10, 2015, 01:25:52 PM
Quote from: Augustus on September 10, 2015, 10:55:04 AM
https://twitter.com/RSNO?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
See 5 Sept entry

Knowing the RSNO are due to record Brian 2 & 14 sometime this autumn, a friend of mine just called my attention to this picture posted 5 September on the RSNO Twitter feed.  Could this be the recording session for Brian's 2nd?  There seem to be two pianos in front of the orchestra, an organ and a positive multiplicity of horns in the side stalls which could suggest the "Battle scherzo"?  Is there any other work that might explain these forces?

Brian No. 2 looks like a good bet.  Woohoo!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on September 10, 2015, 01:28:27 PM
Yep. Seems to be it. It seems like this recording will use Brian's desired 16 horns as well, unlike the Marco Polo/Naxos one, which states in its liner notes that only eight are used there.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 10, 2015, 01:45:22 PM
It seems to be the real thing alright...

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on October 04, 2015, 08:49:25 AM
Ordered a haul of discs today, so later this week hopefully I'll be adding a whopping SIX new Havergal Brian symphonies to my collection. The EMI 2-disc set with Nos. 7-9, 31 and The Tinker's Wedding, and the Naxos disc with Nos. 11 & 15, the overtures For Valour and Dr. Merryheart.

Currently I have Nos. 1, 3, 4 & 12.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2015, 09:12:12 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 04, 2015, 08:49:25 AM
Ordered a haul of discs today, so later this week hopefully I'll be adding a whopping SIX new Havergal Brian symphonies to my collection. The EMI 2-disc set with Nos. 7-9, 31 and The Tinker's Wedding, and the Naxos disc with Nos. 11 & 15, the overtures For Valour and Dr. Merryheart.

Currently I have Nos. 1, 3, 4 & 12.

Excellent...ten down, twenty-two to go  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 04, 2015, 10:23:11 AM
I quite liked that old Unicorn CD  :o
I was no doubt listening on lo-fi equipment but I still was delighted to have that very fine performance on CD. I thought that the craggy mountainous image on the front went very well with the music and so, if the Heritage release is unavailable I'm sure that the Unicorn would do for the time being.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on October 04, 2015, 12:05:11 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2015, 09:12:12 AM
Excellent...ten down, twenty-two to go  8)

Sarge

Indeed. Although completing the set may mean I have to get both recordings of the Violin Concerto; the Dutton includes No. 13, and the Naxos includes No. 18. I've also decided to wait until Dutton release their recording of Nos. 2 & 14 instead of getting the Naxos 2nd. Kill two birds with one stone and all...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Wieland on October 04, 2015, 12:45:48 PM
Dear friends
I am also someone who is interested in the work of Havergal Brian and I know quite a few of his symphonies. But you don't expect anyone new here to read 345 pages of comments. So what to do? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 04, 2015, 12:52:55 PM
Quote from: Wieland on October 04, 2015, 12:45:48 PM
Dear friends
I am also someone who is interested in the work of Havergal Brian and I know quite a few of his symphonies. But you don't expect anyone new here to read 345 pages of comments. So what to do? ;D

No, that would be madness. I wrote a few myself, but consider myself quite sane...

If you have a question, ask it. I suspect  the answer will lurk somewhere in these pages already, but - repetition is an important artistic principle, so who am I to repudiate it?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 04, 2015, 03:05:48 PM
Quote from: Wieland on October 04, 2015, 12:45:48 PM
Dear friends
I am also someone who is interested in the work of Havergal Brian and I know quite a few of his symphonies. But you don't expect anyone new here to read 345 pages of comments. So what to do? ;D

When I discovered the thread in early 2012 I read nearly 200 pages before I gave up. But that was work-time!

Yes, seriously, just ask away....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on October 08, 2015, 09:52:05 AM
All the symphonies I mentioned earlier arrived in the post this morning. Although my first comment is actually about the overture For Valour. The main theme (presented at the opening) reminds me of Walton's coronation marches, despite being written around the time he was born.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 16, 2015, 02:41:06 AM
I can find a thread about Albion's British Composer index but where is the actual collection? I can't see it anywhere,just the thread saying how good it is. It used to be an alphabetical list of composers and a list of downloads per composer. Driving me bonkers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 16, 2015, 10:03:29 AM
Here's the top level directory at mediafire

https://www.mediafire.com/?yqrs5q7n92j17#39gklf97ua449
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on December 08, 2015, 08:58:13 AM
Here's a date for all our diaries.  The premiere of Professor John Pickard's re-orchestration from the vocal score of the lost Brian "The Vision of Cleopatra" (1908) will take place in Bristol on 12 March next year.  It's mentioned here, just scroll down to University Choral Society:
http://www.bristol.ac.uk/music/music-making/calling-all-musicians/choral/

It's not every day you have the chance to get to a Brian "premiere"!  Perhaps there should be a GMG thread group meeting?

Anyone know when the new Dutton of Symphonies 2 & 14 is due out?

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on December 09, 2015, 11:44:04 PM
Thanks for the info; that is good news indeed. I won't be able to get there so hope for a recording soon.

I believe Symphonies 2 & 14 are due in January or February.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 09, 2015, 11:50:03 PM
Yes, thank you, Augustus! I wonder whether John Pickard is practising for the more demanding task of orchestrating Prometheus Unbound...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 15, 2015, 04:54:33 AM
Although in no way derivative Malcolm Lipkin's Third Symphony 'Sun' (1979-1986) reminded me in places of Havergal Brian. It is a craggy and often dissonant, although tonal, one movement work of c.26 minutes. I have enjoyed it enormously and played it many times:
Here is a link:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sGJZhItGg3E
[asin]B00V6B9XX2[/asin]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on January 29, 2016, 10:26:13 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 09, 2015, 11:50:03 PM
Yes, thank you, Augustus! I wonder whether John Pickard is practising for the more demanding task of orchestrating Prometheus Unbound...

Wait, what?!?  They are making a performance edition of Prometheus Unbound? 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 30, 2016, 02:00:01 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 29, 2016, 10:26:13 PM
Wait, what?!?  They are making a performance edition of Prometheus Unbound?

No. I was just expressing an idle hope. Orchestrating Prometheus Unbound would be a really Promethean undertaking...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on January 30, 2016, 06:21:52 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 30, 2016, 02:00:01 PM
No. I was just expressing an idle hope. Orchestrating Prometheus Unbound would be a really Promethean undertaking...

You know what, it's not that herculean a task.  Maybe you should suggest it to the society.   It is possible and they might not have even considered it.  If someone funded a 50,000 recording, they might fund this too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 30, 2016, 09:47:43 PM
But first we have this: http://www.bris.ac.uk/arts/events/2016/march/-bristol-university-choral-society-and-symphony-orchestra.html (http://www.bris.ac.uk/arts/events/2016/march/-bristol-university-choral-society-and-symphony-orchestra.html)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 30, 2016, 09:51:26 PM
About how to order tickets: www.bristol.ac.uk/music/events/tickets/ (http://www.bristol.ac.uk/music/events/tickets/)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on January 31, 2016, 04:20:35 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on January 30, 2016, 09:47:43 PM
But first we have this: http://www.bris.ac.uk/arts/events/2016/march/-bristol-university-choral-society-and-symphony-orchestra.html (http://www.bris.ac.uk/arts/events/2016/march/-bristol-university-choral-society-and-symphony-orchestra.html)

Fantastic! Hopefully a recording is soon to follow.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on February 10, 2016, 05:02:37 AM
Greetings all.

The HBS doubtless has members active in this thread, and I'd like to encourage those who are not members to consider joining. The Society has been very active over the last few years in bringing much un-recorded Brian to CD, and this will continue. Our membership is therefore very important in our work of promoting the music of Havergal Brian. If any forum members have been unsure about joining the Society then now would be a good time, and as an incentive the HBS is offering a free Toccata Classics CD of Brian's orchestral music to the first hundred people enquiring about membership. Please see the News Bar on the homepage of the HBS website at www.havergalbrian.org for more details.

Cheers,
Martyn
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on February 10, 2016, 05:35:44 AM
Cheers, Martyn!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on February 25, 2016, 06:17:31 AM
I see there are two Brian part songs being given at the English Music Festival in Dorchester on Sunday 29th May in the 19.00 concert by the City of London Choir: "Shall I Compare Thee to a Summer's Day" and "Blow, Blow Thou Winter Wind".
https://www.englishmusicfestival.org.uk/programme.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on March 13, 2016, 03:30:50 AM
Yesterday was the day Brian's The Vision of Cleopatra was to be performed in Bristol.  Did anyone go and can update us about the piece and performance?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on March 27, 2016, 08:18:04 AM
Did anyone here manage to attend the premiere of Brian/Pickard Vision of Cleopatra or find a review of it?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on March 28, 2016, 07:41:19 AM
I'm listening to a fantastic "introductory talk" on Brian's music from the HB Society's website. Why haven't I heard this before? Plenty of music excerpts included too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 29, 2016, 02:10:36 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 28, 2016, 07:41:19 AM
I'm listening to a fantastic "introductory talk" on Brian's music from the HB Society's website. Why haven't I heard this before? Plenty of music excerpts included too.

It's excellent. The late Malcolm MacDonald did a wonderful job, as usual.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian [1876-1972]
Post by: Scion7 on May 25, 2016, 04:20:41 AM
I've been up since 2 a.m., and have just finished reading all 346 pages of this thread topic.


(http://lovelace-media.imgix.net/uploads/269/55b46c60-0af1-0132-07e9-0eae5eefacd9.gif?)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian [1876-1972]
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 25, 2016, 05:01:06 AM
Quote from: Scion7 on May 25, 2016, 04:20:41 AM
I've been up since 2 a.m., and have just finished reading all 346 pages of this thread topic.

A near Gothic feat. I'm impressed  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on June 01, 2016, 05:05:53 AM
Happy to say I'm about to add 8 more Brian symphonies to my collection:

No. 2 (Moscow SO/Rowe)
Nos. 5, 19 & 27 (RSNO/Brabbins)
Nos. 20 & 25 (NSO Ukraine/Penny)
Nos. 17 & 32 (RTÉ SO/Leaper)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2016, 05:08:27 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on June 01, 2016, 05:05:53 AM
Happy to say I'm about to add 8 more Brian symphonies to my collection:

No. 2 (Moscow SO/Rowe)
Nos. 5, 19 & 27 (RSNO/Brabbins)
Nos. 20 & 25 (NSO Ukraine/Penny)
Nos. 17 & 32 (RTÉ SO/Leaper)

Great to hear! One caveat, though - do NOT buy the Naxos Second Symphony. There will be a far better recording out next month with Brabbins...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on June 01, 2016, 05:39:11 AM
Ahoy there, Johan!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2016, 06:08:23 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on June 01, 2016, 05:39:11 AM
Ahoy there, Johan!

Ahoy, Karl!

(Alive but busy in very fruitful ways...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on June 01, 2016, 06:09:33 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2016, 05:08:27 AM
Great to hear! One caveat, though - do NOT buy the Naxos Second Symphony. There will be a far better recording out next month with Brabbins...

You're kidding?! Oh well. It's done now. I'll get the new one as well, as I believe it's paired with No. 14.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2016, 06:12:01 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on June 01, 2016, 06:09:33 AM
You're kidding?! Oh well. It's done now. I'll get the new one as well, as I believe it's paired with No. 14.

Correct. That will be a very instructive case of 'compare & contrast', then!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on June 06, 2016, 11:03:29 AM
All my Brian discs arrived this morning. Currently at the finale of No. 2 as I write, and I am very impressed by this work. Plenty of Brian's characteristically wonderful orchestral effects, not least the contrast of high divided violins and low brass, organ and percussion.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 06, 2016, 11:24:24 AM
Good to hear it. I find that the Naxos 2 gradually gets better. And the Finale comes off well. Still, I cannot wait for the Brabbins!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 20, 2016, 09:57:20 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 01, 2016, 05:08:27 AM
Great to hear! One caveat, though - do NOT buy the Naxos Second Symphony. There will be a far better recording out next month with Brabbins...

What prove do we have that the new second will be out next month. I can't find any mention of it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 20, 2016, 09:58:03 PM
Whoops, proof
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 20, 2016, 10:08:42 PM
In the latest HBS Newsletter (244, March-April) the editor said that Dutton had scheduled the CD for release in June. Perhaps there is a slight delay.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 21, 2016, 10:14:05 AM
There's still a few days of June to go,Johan! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 21, 2016, 10:22:02 AM
Hope springs eternal, cilgwyn...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 05:46:37 AM
Just think (and I'm sure you have! ;D). Within the next few weeks we could actually be listening to Brian's Second Symphony No 2 in start of the art digital quality sound?!! ??? :o ;D
By the way,while s/h copies of Vol 2 remain sky high;the third volume of MM's survey of Brian's symphonies keeps popping up in cheap s/copies on places like Amazon,ebay,Abe Books (etc). According to the cover it only covers the last three symphonies;but according to some,including a surprised reviewer on Amazon;there is allot more to it than that. How much? What can I expect if I fork out?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2016, 06:04:12 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 05:46:37 AM
the third volume of MM's survey of Brian's symphonies keeps popping up in cheap s/copies on places like Amazon,ebay,Abe Books (etc). According to the cover it only covers the last three symphonies;but according to some,including a surprised reviewer on Amazon;there is allot more to it than that. How much? What can I expect if I fork out?

The preface and chapters on the last three symphonies take up 78 pages. There are a further 230 pages devoted to various topics with chapter titles including: The Roots of Brian's Symphonism; Line and Harmony; Tonality and Form; Brian and the Orchestra; The Symphonies as Drama; Brian's Mind; Elegy and Recapitulation; and a wonderful Epilogue, summing up Brian's achievement and what he means to MM.  In a nutshell, a must read for Brian enthusiasts.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on June 22, 2016, 06:05:08 AM
I've found the cover for the new Brian 2/14 recording, on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Symphonies-Hybrid-Multi-channel/dp/B01HBSPU9E/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1466604236&sr=8-7&keywords=Havergal+Brian+Symphonies+2 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Symphonies-Hybrid-Multi-channel/dp/B01HBSPU9E/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1466604236&sr=8-7&keywords=Havergal+Brian+Symphonies+2)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on June 22, 2016, 06:06:50 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 05:46:37 AM
What can I expect if I fork out?

If you're anywhere near Abergavenny you're welcome to come & have a look at my copy - although with our permanent temporary roadworks plus preparations for the Eisteddfod you'll be lucky to get anywhere near the place...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 06:25:49 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2016, 06:04:12 AM
The preface and chapters on the last three symphonies take up 78 pages. There are a further 230 pages devoted to various topics with chapter titles including: The Roots of Brian's Symphonism; Line and Harmony; Tonality and Form; Brian and the Orchestra; The Symphonies as Drama; Brian's Mind; Elegy and Recapitulation; and a wonderful Epilogue, summing up Brian's achievement and what he means to MM.  In a nutshell, a must read for Brian enthusiasts.

Sarge
Thank you,Sarge.All the info I needed there (the book aside! ;D). "Brian's mind",eh?! I also understand,that it includes a rundown of MM's favourite Brian symphonies (A sort of Brian Top of the Pops!)
I just looked at the Dutton artwork. Thanks for the link,Maestro! I'm not sure what to think of that,yet. It does fit in with some of the mental images No14 evokes,though!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 22, 2016, 06:29:52 AM
I'm in complete agreement with Sarge. Vol. 3 is a must-read for every Brianite.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 22, 2016, 06:33:25 AM
The artwork seems to tie in with the Goethean and medieval inspiration behind the Second Symphony...


Quote from: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 06:25:49 AM
Thank you,Sarge.All the info I needed there (the book aside! ;D). "Brian's mind",eh?! I also understand,that it includes a rundown of MM's favourite Brian symphonies (A sort of Brian Top of the Pops!)
I just looked at the Dutton artwork. Thanks for the link,Maestro! I'm not sure what to think of that,yet. It does fit in with some of the mental images No14 evokes,though!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2016, 06:34:52 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 06:25:49 AM
I also understand,that it includes a rundown of MM's favourite Brian symphonies (A sort of Brian Top of the Pops!)

It does. He excludes The Gothic, saying it's "unrankable" and then lists a Top 5, including one really surprising choice. He then puts the rest at various levels.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on June 22, 2016, 06:43:23 AM
I wonder how long we'll have to wait before we get commercial recordings of the remaining symphonies, Nos. 21 & 26.

I'm also aware that I'm having to buy multiple recordings of certain works in order to complete (as far as possible) the symphony cycle. For example, I have two Festal Dances (not a substantial work, so no big deal really). But I'll need to get both recordings of the Violin Concerto (quite a substantial work) in order to get the 13th and 18th Symphonies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2016, 06:54:16 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on June 22, 2016, 06:43:23 AM
I wonder how long we'll have to wait before we get commercial recordings of the remaining symphonies, Nos. 21 & 26.

21 has been available on CD (not sure if it is oop now):

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2010/brian1021.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/nov2013/brian102122psalm23.jpg)


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on June 22, 2016, 06:54:42 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2016, 06:34:52 AM
It does. He excludes The Gothic after saying it's "unrankable" and then lists a Top 5, including one really surprising choice. He then puts the rest at various levels.

Sarge

I've always thought the Gothic was pretty rank.

(Runs away, fleeing the wrath . . . . )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 06:57:53 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2016, 06:34:52 AM
It does. He excludes The Gothic after saying it's "unrankable" and then lists a Top 5, including one really surprising choice. He then puts the rest at various levels.

Sarge
And I'll need to buy the book to find out what that "really surprising choice" is,Sarge?!! ;D

Well,it's not 4 (!!) 13 or 14........so (thinking hard :-\).....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2016, 06:58:36 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on June 22, 2016, 06:54:42 AM
I've always thought the Gothic was pretty rank.

(Runs away, fleeing the wrath . . . . )

Fleeing the wrath and the bazooka!


(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/1408.gif)                          (poco) Sforzando

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 07:00:17 AM
It can't be No 9?!!........... :-[
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2016, 07:01:58 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 06:57:53 AM
And I'll need to buy the book to find out what that "really surprising choice" is,Sarge?!! ;D

Well,it's not 4 (!!) 13 or 14........so (thinking hard :-\).....

I didn't want to spoil it for you, just in case you do buy the book  ;D  I'll tell you if you really want to know now. I will say the surprising choice is not 14, which he ranks at the bottom   ??? >:(

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 07:05:09 AM
That would have been surprising,Sarge!! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 22, 2016, 07:05:16 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 07:00:17 AM
It can't be No 9?!!........... :-[

Sarge is a bit cruel... Reading MM's  choices again, I wonder if I still agree with him. I must say that after living with Brian's music for so long, I find it difficult to rank the symphonies, although some are stronger.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 07:07:25 AM
Okay,here goes! No 11?! :-\
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 22, 2016, 07:10:22 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 07:07:25 AM
Okay,here goes! No 11?! :-\

Ha! Nope.

My choice for the six best would be 8, 10, 16, 22, 27, 30.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2016, 07:11:55 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 22, 2016, 07:05:16 AM
Sarge is a bit cruel... Reading MM's  choices again, I wonder if I still agree with him.

I only agree with one of his choices.

Quote from: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 07:05:09 AM
That would have been surprising,Sarge!! ::) ;D

You don't like 14? I'm probably (undoubtedly) in the minority in that I'm looking forward to the new release more for 14 than 2 (I've been less happy with the Marco Polo than most here).

Sarge

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2016, 07:19:35 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 22, 2016, 07:10:22 AM
Ha! Nope.

My choice for the six best would be 8, 10, 16, 22, 27, 30.

The Gothic would be in my Top 6 of course but following MM's lead, my choices w/o Gothic would be 5, 8, 9, 13 (or 14), 16, 28.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 22, 2016, 07:21:19 AM
I think the Mackerras 2 will be hard to beat... I am eagerly awaiting no. 14, too, a work for which I have a very soft spot.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2016, 07:25:45 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on June 22, 2016, 07:21:19 AM
I think the Mackerras 2 will be hard to beat...

Oh, yes...wonderful performance. My Klassic Haus CD-R gets played a lot around here.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 07:48:29 AM
We're talking about a surprising choice here though,aren't we? And I suppose one should differentiate between favourite and best?
No 3 is my favourite;but I'm not sure if it's really one of the best? Fertility of invention,sheer originality,yes. But technically,I suppose it's all over the shop? Which is why I like it so much,of course. I'd also include No 7. But even I'll admit it rambles a bit too much for it's own good. It's also is,really,such a halfway house between his early and late styles. No 8 is where everything all comes together. No 10 is even more cogently argued. But I still like No 3 & 7,better!

As to the forthcoming Dutton. I'm actually looking forward to both of them! . A few years ago it would have been No2;but I'm a convert to later Brian,now! No 14 is a now a firm favourite. I like it even better than No 2,now. But No 2 is very important to me. The nights I spent with that score blazing,brooding,stalking through my brain! ??? ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2016, 07:52:54 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 07:48:29 AM
We're talking about a surprising choice here though,aren't we? And I suppose one should differentiate between favourite and best?
No 3 is my favourite;but I'm not sure if it's really one of the best? Fertility of invention,sheer originality,yes. But technically,I suppose it's all over the shop? Which is why I like it so much,of course. I'd also include No 7. But even I'll admit it rambles a bit too much for it's own good. It's also is,really,such a halfway house between his early and late styles. No 8 is where everything all comes together. No 10 is even more cogently argued. But I still like No 3 & 7,better!

As to the forthcoming Dutton. I'm actually looking forward to both of them! . A few years ago it would have been No2;but I'm a convert to later Brian,now! No 14 is a now a firm favourite. I like it even better than No 2,now. But No 2 is very important to me. The nights I spent with that score blazing,brooding,stalking through my brain! ??? ??? ;D

So, do you want to know MM's choices? Or are you going to wait for the book  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 07:57:21 AM
Will you tell me,Sarge? Without my having to go down on my hands and knees?!! ??? :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 07:58:17 AM
Okay,maybe just knees!! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2016, 08:01:19 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 07:58:17 AM
Okay,maybe just knees!! ??? ;D

;D :D ;D

MM's Top 5

3, 4, 7, 16, 30

You'll be happy to see 3 there. And I keep thinking 4 must be a typo  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2016, 08:03:35 AM
About 4, I should mention I actually like it...sometimes, in the right mood, I love it.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 08:07:13 AM
Can't believe he chose No 4! :o
And No 7! I'm glad, It's one of my favourites. But I just didn't think he'd pick it;for the reasons I stated.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 08:09:06 AM
And no 8 or 10?!!!! :o :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2016, 08:12:35 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 08:09:06 AM
And no 8 or 10?!!!! :o :o

They both make his second tier, masterpieces "though at a slightly lesser level of vision" than his top five.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 08:29:10 AM
Vision as opposed to boring things like formal construction! Very interesting,when you consider that,going by various posts,I've read over the years, and received opinion;that No 8 and 10 are the ones that get rated more highly. For sheer fecundity of invention,imagination and breadth of vision,I certainly agree with MM's choice of No's 3 & 7,over the former. In some ways,the formal (near) perfection of No's 8 & 9 is possibly their failing?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 22, 2016, 08:41:19 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 08:29:10 AM
Vision as opposed to boring things like formal construction! Very interesting,when you consider that,going by various posts,I've read over the years, and received opinion;that No 8 and 10 are the ones that get rated more highly. For sheer fecundity of invention,imagination and breadth of vision,I certainly agree with MM's choice of No's 3 & 7,over the former. In some ways,the formal (near) perfection of No's 8 & 9 is possibly their failing?!

Although he doesn't give many reasons for his choices (I imagine one has to read the individual chapters on each of those symphonies to fully understand why he ranks them as he does), he does say he chose those five as being "evidence of supreme mastery of both technique and inspiration". So I assume he thinks they are as perfect in form as 8 & 10. He also says his selection is "a personal, individual and prejudiced affair". In other words, I suppose he just likes some more than others (like we all do)  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 09:05:42 AM
No's 3 & 7 certainly get played here more often than No's 8 & 10;so they must have something going for them! As does No 2,I might add. I'm still surprised at his choices,though! I've always felt that it's No 3 & 7's uncoventional-ity that makes them so great. The imagination and invention is so irrepressible,it's almost as if they're ready to burst at the seams,at times. And there is nothing else,to my mind,in the entire literature of the British symphony that remotely approaches the third in terms of blatant disregard for symphonic form. In fact, can't think of a British symphony that is anything like it. A colossal symphony and Concertante work (or parts of one) all going on in one huge symphony!!! Yet,somehow he manages to weld it all together?
His choices of No's 16 and 30,are,however,less surprising to me. And I might add,much as I like them,not in my top 5! But then,as you say;we all have our favourites. As you say,some folk like No 4! Yourself included.

And so do I,when I'm in the right mood.......just don't tell anyone!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 22, 2016, 09:10:26 AM
3,6,7 and 16 and Sinfonia Brevis are excellent but 8,9 and 10 are my favourites. No.1 is in a special category on its own. The greatest? No.8 for me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 09:12:36 AM
There we are,No 8 in the top 5,Sarge! :) Although,not for me!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 22, 2016, 09:18:12 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 09:12:36 AM
There we are,No 8 in the top 5,Sarge! :) Although,not for me!!
Love the poetic, searching ending of the work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 09:48:01 AM
I'll have another listen to No 8 & some of the others mentioned here, I haven't listened to Havergal Brian for a while,I'm afraid. I've had such a pile of new ones to listen to. The emi Lp of 8 & 9 was a favourite when I was young. It only moved down the 'list' later on;particularly when I 'cracked' the later ones.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2016, 09:52:15 AM
I do need to go back to that two-fer with the Seventh through Ninth.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 10:01:35 AM
As soon as this cd is over,on it goes! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on June 22, 2016, 12:22:26 PM
Re. the comments on Symphony 2:

For those of you who haven't seen it, watch the following at 2.54 minutes into the video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_nfiBooF9j0
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 22, 2016, 12:40:12 PM
I know this documentary, of course. The final minutes never fail to move me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 22, 2016, 02:10:40 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 09:48:01 AM
I'll have another listen to No 8 & some of the others mentioned here, I haven't listened to Havergal Brian for a while,I'm afraid. I've had such a pile of new ones to listen to. The emi Lp of 8 & 9 was a favourite when I was young. It only moved down the 'list' later on;particularly when I 'cracked' the later ones.
I remained stuck at the adolescent stage of development.  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 22, 2016, 02:16:09 PM
You're only young at heart. That's a virtue
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 22, 2016, 02:33:05 PM
Well,maybe I'm experiencing a (albeit,fleeting?) second adolescence? I'm listening to the eighth now,and I'm inclined to think that this is the most satisfying piece of music I've listened to all day!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 23, 2016, 12:39:44 AM
No acne this time around! ;D
Not that I had any of course!! ::)
I'm listening to the Ninth,now. I think I'll have a listen to No 30,as well. Another  of the Malcolm MacDonald top 5. No 16 is on a cd-r.

Uh-oh....it's time for bed! :( :( :( :(

(Takes less room,although less spontaneous! ;D)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 27, 2016, 04:11:17 AM
I hadn't seen this article;although no doubt I'm the only one here who hasn't! ;D I hadn't seen that photo,either. I must get out more!! Not everyone is allergic to Das Siegeslied or regards it as one of his weaker efforts,eh?! I'm  even getting an urge to bung it on after reading such enthusiasm.
Hopefully,I've mastered the hyperlink by now!!!

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/our-neglect-of-this-great-working-class-british-composer-is-a-disgrace/ (http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/our-neglect-of-this-great-working-class-british-composer-is-a-disgrace/)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 27, 2016, 04:16:12 AM
One or more of the comments posted are less than enthusiastic about the depiction of Brian,however!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 27, 2016, 04:48:48 AM
John Grimshaw, the HBS Chairman, linked to it on Facebook. I wasn't completely happy with it, either. Still, publicity is publicity for a composer dead for almost 44 years already.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 27, 2016, 05:14:42 AM
Wife beating,drinking,spongeing,paranoia! He likes his music,though. It IS nice to be reminded that Das Siegeslied DOES have some quiet bits and that somebody appreciates them. I like those harps,too! The joke about the f*** is crude but amusing! Havergal Brian did have a strong sense of humour,however. Example. The Tigers!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 27, 2016, 05:20:57 AM
Brian will never be St. Havergal.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 27, 2016, 01:47:08 PM
"If the Symphony No. 30 were premièred today as the work of a photogenic 25-year-old, preferably female or gay, it would cause a sensation." Doesn't the right love its own talking points?

Re the fart anecdote, I think flatulent humour was Bantock's thing, Brian was just indulging him.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 28, 2016, 08:35:04 AM
F****** aside :o ,judging by posts at the AMF Forum it shouldn't be too long before we finally get our mits on the latest Havergal Brian release! I see a preorder (at the Dutton website) in the offing!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 28, 2016, 09:12:12 AM
Good news. I already ordered mine through the HBS. Can't wait.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaze on June 28, 2016, 01:38:06 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 27, 2016, 01:47:08 PM
"If the Symphony No. 30 were premièred today as the work of a photogenic 25-year-old, preferably female or gay, it would cause a sensation." Doesn't the right love its own talking points?

I don't know about the right or the ideologies behind this, but this resentful little article certainly won't do much to enthuse me further to Havergal Brian.

Anyway, these and other narratives around "neglected composers" have gotten a bit tiresome to me, and may have led to unreasonable expectations in some instances

That being said, that's certainly not Brian's fault, and I will continue to greatly enjoy such works as Symphonies 8 & 10.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 29, 2016, 05:06:55 AM
I have some of Tikhon Khrennikov in my cd collection and I must admit I DO rather like some of his music. Havergal Brian's shortcomings as a human being are pretty small beer by comparison. And then you've got Nicolas Gombert and Carlo Gesualdo..........you could go on............

Quite a nice chap that Havergal Brian! :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 29, 2016, 05:07:35 AM
I like him,anyway! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 30, 2016, 08:04:46 AM
Well,the new Havergal Brian cd of Symphonies 2 & 14,from Dutton,is there on their website ready to order!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 30, 2016, 08:15:05 AM
My order has been placed! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 30, 2016, 08:15:48 AM
Good news! I expect it in the post before long.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 30, 2016, 08:26:28 AM
This is exciting! Finally,I can pick it off the shelf instead of searching through a pile of cd-rs!! And state of the art sound,booklet notes........ :) :) :) You get a discount,of course! ??? ;D
I see a flurry of posts here!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 30, 2016, 08:56:41 AM
I think it cost me £7.99, excluding p&p.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 30, 2016, 09:28:12 AM
£12.74 including p&P;but with special releases like this I like to buy from the label itself. Ortherwise,generally speaking,it's the cheapest deal I can find! I don't think MusicMagpie have it in stock yet!! :( ;D Also,you get it 'hot off the press' as it were. Well,not quite! Short of holding up the delivery lorry from the factory which is highly illegal & I hate balaclavas (itchy!) let alone stockings!!! :o
Will John Pickard be doing the booklet notes again,I wonder;now that the much missed Malcolm MacDonald is no longer with us? I will find out soon,of course!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 30, 2016, 09:36:28 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 30, 2016, 09:28:12 AMI hate balaclavas (itchy!) let alone stockings!!! :o

;D :D ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 30, 2016, 10:11:35 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 30, 2016, 09:28:12 AM
£12.74 including p&P;but with special releases like this I like to buy from the label itself. Ortherwise,generally speaking,it's the cheapest deal I can find! I don't think MusicMagpie have it in stock yet!! :( ;D Also,you get it 'hot off the press' as it were. Well,not quite! Short of holding up the delivery lorry from the factory which is highly illegal & I hate balaclavas (itchy!) let alone stockings!!! :o
Will John Pickard be doing the booklet notes again,I wonder;now that the much missed Malcolm MacDonald is no longer with us? I will find out soon,of course!
Of course if I belonged to the HBS!

Not that I'd know of course,Sarge! :-[ ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 30, 2016, 11:12:06 AM
I'll keep you all posted. John Grimshaw did promise to send the CD as soon as copies arrived at his place...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 30, 2016, 02:45:42 PM
Thank you,Johann. I'm looking forward to (we all are) your thoughts on this release.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 30, 2016, 02:48:39 PM
Woo hoo, off the Dutton website to order right now!

I wonder now how long before we have to wait for a recording of No.26, the pessimist in me says 20 years +

:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on June 30, 2016, 02:54:11 PM
Are you sure? With Dutton and,maybe,Naxos (any hope there,Johann?) around?! And steady on....we haven't heard this one yet!! ;D
I might be dead before I hear Faust or Turandot complete?! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 30, 2016, 03:32:30 PM
Nature abhors a vacuum. So, perhaps, does Dutton, or Naxos. I think a recording of no. 26 is only a matter of time.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on June 30, 2016, 10:08:58 PM
I've ordered my copy. It seems to have taken ages to appear but here we are with something to look forward to.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 01, 2016, 04:32:05 AM
Just looked at the back of the Cpo cd. Apparently it was only released two years ago;which means I'm only 969 years old,so I should have plenty of time left for Vol 2!! :) As to a recording of No 26. I hope they do that;but I must admit,I'd love Dutton to record No 3 next. The Hyperion 3 wasn't anywhere as bad as the Marco Polo 2,but the performance just doesn't seem to come to life. It's like a competent run through. People need to hear something better than this at their first encounter;and it's one of Brian's most wildly,imaginative creations. Also,as Sarge revealed (to me) it's in Malcolm MacDonald's top 5.
Short of that,Lyrita could release the Pope performance,which would be nice anyway,butwe need a modern digital recording..................and I must get a grip on myself;the new Dutton hasn't even been sent out yet! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 01, 2016, 04:45:29 AM
Yes, we'll simply have to wait and hear the result for ourselves. As for the Hyperion 3, it was good but not exciting, and the acoustics of the Maida Vale studios didn't help either. I was present at a performance there, before the actual recording was made. The sound was constricted. And this work really needs space.

And now I have to get off my train (Amsterdam).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 05, 2016, 09:30:03 AM
John Grimshaw just announced on Facebook that copies of the new Brian CD will be arriving tomorrow...

Oh, and there will be a Naxos CD with 8 (?), 21 and 26 (I scanned the latest Newsletter quickly) in the near future.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on July 05, 2016, 10:30:22 AM
Wow! And that will complete the cycle! At long last!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2016, 10:32:37 AM
Zowie.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 05, 2016, 10:36:07 AM
Thanks for telling us Johann! Calyptorhyncus won't have to wait so long,after all? Unless twenty years has gone already? Like the Twilight Zone (looking at the date,hurriedly!). I would say that the Twenty-First Symphony of Havergal Brian needed a professional recording. It does. The only trouble is that the LSSO sound so professional. They've got some very stiff competion,there! But then the recordings so far are so good. The eighth should be especially good with those Russian horns,like they were in the Sixth. Maybe even more so?!! Excellent choice!!( And the Dutton will be arriving at HB headquarters tomorrow. I wonder when I will get mine?)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 05, 2016, 11:09:30 AM
Just to confirm - it _is_ the 8th that will be included in the new Naxos CD.

Another important announcement - the HBS will be raising £100.000 for a recording of the opera Faust, hopefully before 2022, the 50th anniversary of Brian's death. The Faust Fund. There is already  £55.000.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 05, 2016, 11:33:39 AM
So not much to report,then?!! ;D Phew! You've only got £45,000 to go. I only wish I could help! I'm sure that they will reach their objective. Once the HBS set their collective mind on something. Of course,the Prom Gothic and all these recordings have given them the confidence and boosted Brian's profile,I suppose? This is an announcement that I've been hoping to hear for a very long time;short of a surprise performance....like that ill fated German Gothic that seemed to emerge and disappear from their schedule! I've always wondered whether one of those regional operatic companies you get on the continent might do a Brian opera? They do some obscure titles. The trouble is a less than sterling performance can make things worse. You can end up wishing they hadn't recorded it. Brian would really tax their resouces.
So this is the next big one?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 05, 2016, 11:59:41 AM
Lionel Friend,  who also conducted The Tigers, is already on board. As for volume three of 'Havergal Brian on Music', the German musicologist and Brianite Jürgen Schaarwächter will try and fill Malcolm MacDonald's giant shoes...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 05, 2016, 01:42:43 PM
Wow, really good news, so pleased.

Now I can hear Brian's 'only known use of the wood block' in 26 (the BBC announcer announces this on the old recording, but the quality is so bad you can't pick it out). 8 and 21 are amazing works too. I'd go far as to say that 8 is my favourite Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 07, 2016, 01:12:41 AM
My Dutton cd arrived this morning. :) Has anyone else had their copy?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 07, 2016, 01:17:49 AM
Wow! That's quick. Mine was sent yesterday. I think it'll be here by Saturday at the earliest...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 07, 2016, 02:13:19 AM
The first thing you notice is the clarity and detail of the sound picture. It brings to mind that thing they said about cds (when they first appeared) sounding 'as if a veil had been lifted'. After all the off air cassette tapes,file downloads of off-air broadcasts and I don't know if I should even include that swimmy,opaque sounding Marco Polo recording (no I won't!) this is how it sounds. Another comparison,if you're into old b/w movies and you buy one of those digitally restored studio prints that just seem to sparkle like diamonds. It's almost hard to believe how old they are (clothes and cars,period detail aside). It's a bit too soon for me to really pass judgement on the performance itself as a whole,because I haven't heard all of it;but Brabbins really draws you in. There is a real feeling of an unfolding narrative here. I love this symphony. It has a mysterious,enigmatic,nocturnal quality which really attracts me.
And now the third movement. Whoa! This is really something (as the Americans say) the horns whoop and what is really amazing;the sound of those pianos.You'll never have heard it like this before. This is marvellous!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 07, 2016, 02:16:00 AM
To quote my daughter (16): OMG.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 07, 2016, 02:45:52 AM
Of course you have to be careful. The excitement can get the better of you. The clarity and detail of the sound picture really does hit you though,after everything you have heard before. He's going to have to record No 3 now!! :) Those pianos!!
Anyway,first things first. Listening to No 14,now. A good choice for a coupling. Again the detail and clarity of the recording really strikes you. In it's own way it feels as big as No 2,but a fraction of the size. I wish I was a musician.All I can tell you is that Brabbin is a good 'story teller' here. The symphony seems seems even more packed with ideas and unexpected,quick silver changes of mood than ever before.
I'm listening on cordless (analogue) Sennheiser headphones so I can't say how this would sound through loud speakers or wired headphones;but it sounds fantastic to me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 07, 2016, 02:59:54 AM
From what you are saying, it sounds as if Brabbins has chosen a fast(er) tempo for 14. How long does he take?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 07, 2016, 03:27:02 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 07, 2016, 01:12:41 AM
My Dutton cd arrived this morning. :) Has anyone else had their copy?

I was going to wait for it to appear on Amazon but I just realized I haven't the patience for that  ;D I just placed an order with Dutton (should have done it days ago  :( )

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on July 07, 2016, 03:29:56 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 07, 2016, 03:27:02 AM
I was going to wait for it to appear on Amazon but I just realized I haven't the patience for that  ;D I just placed an order with Dutton (should have done it days ago  :( )

Sarge

Do not chide yourself for an exercise of patience!  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 07, 2016, 03:40:49 AM
I'm just referring to the amount Brian packs into these 'compressed' (is that the right word?) later symphonies. It's a bit like stepping into a Tardis (if you're a Dr Who fan). I don't know if it's just me;but they sometimes feel more expansive than they are. Or at least to my ears. But not in so far as they sound too long! tAs to the timing of No 14;it's 21:33. Looking at the page for No 14 on the HB website..............it says 22:03!!
Don't expect me to be too clinical in my reactions. I'm not a musician and I can't read music. I'm just an 'umble listener ;D and I have to take into account the excitement of hearing this recording;particularly No2,because I used to listen to it so much as a youngster,so it has a special meaning to me. You have to be careful about first responses,too. I remember getting over excited about that Dutton Bax symphony. It hardly comes out of the box now!! This is different,of course;because I know these works and they are mature compostions,unlike Bax's early attempt. All I can say is that this is my second listen and it all sounds very good to me. The clarity and detail of the recording and the way those pianos pound really grabs me,though;and not in a boomy Chandos way (although I am a fan of their sound engineering). I think I should really leave the technicalities to you or someone who knows more about music than me! :-[
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 07, 2016, 03:43:51 AM
Yep that's right! Got to get the old reading glasses! ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 07, 2016, 03:48:28 AM
What about the organ in both symphonies? Does it impress?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 07, 2016, 04:15:36 AM
Third listen. I'm looking at the notes on the HB website & Malcolm MacDonald's book. I'll come back to you.Graham Saxby describes the "so called" 'Battle Scherzo" as suggesting a 'whirling dance' rather than a battle. "The frenzied dance mounts in tension until it reaches a veritable climax". Four massive chords from the full brass and organ...."answered by four hammer-blows from pianos,woowind and pizzicato strings". If I can't hear them I'm obviously in trouble?!! :o :(  I'm listening out now. Trouble is I am doing other things (not to do with music or typing) as well!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 07, 2016, 04:18:02 AM
edit! ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 07, 2016, 04:50:27 AM
Yes,I'm hearing it now. Particuarly in the finale. I think I was focusing on the horns and strings. The pianos grabbed my attention then. Focusing on the bass sounds,the addition of the organ is quite thrilling. Yes,right now it's thundering out! I need to have another pop at those ear drops,perhaps?! Yes,they do impress in the finale. I'll have to have another hard listen to the 'Battle Scherzo' though. There is so much going on there. I'll be able to concentrate more later.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 07, 2016, 05:05:53 AM
The organ is also prominent in a spectacular passage in 14, where Brian tries to get things moving by brute force (according to MM, who was critical of the piece, as you know).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on July 07, 2016, 05:43:41 AM
These are two completely different works from the 2nd and 14th I've heard before. The second is a major work by anyone's standards, I can't believe the utter invention of it.

And the beauty.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 07, 2016, 05:45:55 AM
Stop rubbing it in, gents.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 07, 2016, 07:07:05 AM
It's as if someone had unearthed two previously unknown and forgotten Brian masterpieces and taken them into the recording studio! ;D

Seriously,I think these recordings will be the first stop for these symphonies from now on.
I did hear an organ blasting out in No 14. Oh,wow! I can hear the organ now in No2! ??? Yes,I'm hearing it all the time now. By the way Johann. Do you have any scores of these symphonies? I thought you once said you did? I have been told that you don't have to be a musician to do this. I was told by the same person that a Violin Concerto was often a good way to start. Something very tuneful like the Mendelssohn,say,for starters. I did buy two scores and I had one of those guides to the orchestra on cassette (still got it...wonder if they still work?) a book on orchestration by Walter Piston I think. It never got any further, I thought i might be a composer. like Brian! :(
Actually,I think I might have asked you about this a couple of thousand pages ago?!! ;D

Both symphonies have mysterious,enigmatic sounding openings!
I've dug out my cdr-s of 3 & 7 for later. I hope Brabbins likes those. I think he could top the available recordings.


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 07, 2016, 07:13:54 AM
I have the scores of symphonies 3, 7, 8, 10, 11, 21 and 22. Plus the Violin Concerto.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on July 07, 2016, 08:15:43 AM
While most here criticize the Naxos recording of No. 2, there's enough in it for me to see that this is a great work of Brian's. I will end up getting the Dutton recording, to hear the symphony played to Brian's proper specifics (including all 16 horns), and to hear No. 14 too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 07, 2016, 08:39:48 AM
If you like that you'll love this! :)
The organ crashes in at 04:46 in Symphony No 14. It roars away thrillingly.
I'm listening to this for Sarge who hasn't got the cd yet! ;D

Let's hope I've got the right bit or it's back to the doc! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 08, 2016, 12:09:14 AM
Dundonnell has an interesting post on 'Havergal Brian:Future Recording Projects' at the Art Music Forum (AMF). Johann will know all this already;but it's all there! A very interesting post. if you're still desperate for more Havergal Brian (even after receiving this new Dutton cd).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 11, 2016, 11:11:26 AM
http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/blog/ (http://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/blog/)

Great blog post by Lewis Foreman, including a description and photos of the recording session of 2 & 14.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 11, 2016, 11:21:59 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 07, 2016, 08:39:48 AM
The organ crashes in at 04:46 in Symphony No 14. It roars away thrillingly.
I'm listening to this for Sarge who hasn't got the cd yet! ;D

Thank you, most generous of you   :laugh:

Dutton has not confirmed shipment yet, and it's been four days  :(

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 11, 2016, 11:24:43 AM
I'm suffering, too, Sarge. But in my case I expect my copy to arrive tomorrow...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 11, 2016, 11:48:03 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 11, 2016, 11:24:43 AM
I'm suffering, too, Sarge. But in my case I expect my copy to arrive tomorrow...

And to make matters worse, I Just saw that it is finally in stock at Amazon DE ....arrrgggghhhh!!!! I just knew this would happen. Should have trusted my gut and not ordered from Dutton. If I'd ordered from Amazon today, I'd have it tomorrow  :(

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 11, 2016, 11:50:54 AM
Looked more closely at the Amzaon offer: it's not stocked by Amazon; it's being sold through Dutton. I'm feeling a little better now  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 11, 2016, 11:56:50 AM
Haha!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 11, 2016, 01:43:02 PM
So,that's why it's been so quiet here? I must admit I thought it was my bout of verbal d******** (or the posted equivalent) that had driven everyone away! A man who didn't notice the organ thundering away and had been told it was there! (Unable to hear that noisy church organ? Try Acme ear Wax! ::)).
Listening through a pile of cd-rs of broadcast recordings of symphonies 2,3 & 6-14,did remind me of the importance of having modern,digital recordings of Brian symphonies. The clarity and detail of the new Dutton recordings really do hit you after those off-air recordings,however good they are (in their own way). Of course,there's always some idiot who won't hear the organ :-[ ;D.
(Perhaps Brian should have made it more obvious like Khatchaturian did with his third symphony?!! ;D) Meanwhile,I can't miss it now. Listening with cordless headphones and doing other things AND posting at the same time doesn't help. Also,I popped in some ear plugs to block out some noise from builders nearby. You pop them in part way and they act like very low-tech noise cancellation devices (you turn the headphones up! According to the packet they are particularly good at filtering out low frequency noises;so I have got an excuse!Albeit,a pretty lousy one!! Incidentally,I wonder what brand Andrew Clements uses when he reviews Brian records?!! ;D
To cut a long story short,you are both in for a treat. I'll hazard a guess vthat your cds and cd-rs (or whatever you listen on) of the Marco Polo and off-air recordings of the Second Symphony will soon be reduntant! Although,I'm sure the Mackerras and Head recordings will be of interest to Brian enthusiasts,no doubt,for years to come. Neverthless,for pure listening enjoyment,Brabbins will be your first port of call from now on.
Symphony No3 next,please!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 11, 2016, 01:48:31 PM
The Khatchaturian Third - masterpiece of subtlety. Not. Ostensibly celebrating the victory over Nazi Germany, even Stalin hated it...

I hope tomorrow will be The Day!

Check out the link I provided (if you need reminding, that is). The picture of the percussionists in 2 is thrilling.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 11, 2016, 03:02:32 PM
Thank you,Johann! Some great photos there. I hope you and Sarge get your copies soon;hopefully tomorrow. You are in for quite a treat. I look forward to your thoughts. I'm listening to George Lloyd  now. I've got the Dutton cd of the 'Wine of Summer' (etc) lined up for afters! :) I'm going to have a look at the instruments Brian uses first from now on,too...........before listening. It might help!!! ::) ;D I should point out the line about Khatchaturian three was tongue in cheek. Brian uses it part of his orchestra;doesn't he? Khatchaturian,well?!!!!! ??? ;D I think I will also try that old cassette set I mentioned about the instruments of the orchestra. See if they still work? Who knows,maybe I'll learn something?!!

NB:I had a look at it just now. 'Instruments of the Orchestra' (John Hosier) introduced by Yehudi Menhuin,Oxford University Press,complete with an illustrated 72 page booklet.1 cassette inside,actually. Hm!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 11, 2016, 03:08:33 PM
My Khatchaturian remark was also lighthearted... Brian with all his horns is far subtler than Khatchaturian with all his trumpets!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 14, 2016, 01:58:37 AM
I must say that Symphony No.2 meant much more to me on the fine new Dutton recording than the one on Marco Polo and Naxos. Dutton have released to fine new recordings of second symphonies by HB and John Veale. The last movement of the Brian contains my favourite music, from a rather mahlerian section of hushed expectancy at about 11.30 which leads into a brief moment of seemingly hard-won triumph at 11.52. As always with Brian this quickly disappears but, momentarily, the sun seems to break through the clouds. Wonderful!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2016, 02:10:31 AM
I'll look out for the passage. The CD still has to get here. I never knew the North Sea was that wide...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 14, 2016, 03:46:20 AM
Dutton were extremely quick! Also,I ordered their new Gardner/Veale cd on Saturday night after reading Dundonnell's impassioned post at the AMF. Two cans of lager weakened my resolve even further!! :( and the cd was here on Wedneday morning. Everyone's raving about the Veale symphony,by the way!! Not that you'll be tempted to part with your money by Dundonnell's post,of course!! I know you're made of sterner stuff! ;D
It sounds like Vandermolen's a convert to the Second Symphony. Now just think what this recording will do for you!

If you ever get it,of course?!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 14, 2016, 04:48:42 AM
According to my resident Seer,you will receive a small,brown,corrugated cardboard package through your letterbox tomorrow.
He cannot however predict whether you will be able to get the packaging open or whether it will contain the wished for cd. That is beyond his powers.
I can predict,however,that he will be receiving the sack if you don't!!

By the way I bought that s/h copy of Malcolm MacDonald's book about the symphonies,Vol3. Hopefully the condition will be as described;ie "Very Good!"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on July 14, 2016, 05:29:38 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 14, 2016, 04:48:42 AM
According to my resident Seer,you will receive a small,brown,corrugated cardboard package through your letterbox tomorrow.
He cannot however predict whether you will be able to get the packaging open or whether it will contain the wished for cd. That is beyond his powers.

Did he say it will be delivered by Aaron Ramsey?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 14, 2016, 06:21:56 AM
Possibly not?!! Not being familiar with that neck of the Great Woods He has consulted his Master The Great Google,who has informed him that it could be delivered by Post NL!
(Let's just hope it arrives tomorrow!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 14, 2016, 10:47:31 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2016, 02:10:31 AM
I'll look out for the passage. The CD still has to get here. I never knew the North Sea was that wide...

Probably a bureaucratic Brexit-based delay.  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2016, 11:34:35 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 14, 2016, 10:47:31 AM
Probably a bureaucratic Brexit-based delay.  8)

One would expect a Brian Exit to mean fast shipping.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2016, 12:41:50 PM
Just returned home from my aunt's 90th birthday to find the CD on my doormat!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 14, 2016, 01:05:25 PM
At last!! We look forward to your thoughts on the new cd.
I wonder if your aunt is a Brian fan?! ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2016, 01:08:54 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 14, 2016, 01:05:25 PM
At last!! We look forward to your thoughts on the new cd.
I wonder if your aunt is a Brian fan?! ;)

Ha! I did show her the two Gothic videos I posted on YouTube in 2011. She found the music impressive (and a bit loud).

Now reading John Pickard's booklet. I'm first going to listen to 14...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 14, 2016, 03:43:00 PM
She obviously has good taste. Play her Das Siegeslied next time you visit!! ;D
No 14.....then No2. I like it! I suspect Sarge will be taking the same route,when he gets his!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2016, 03:51:19 PM
It's a sharp lady...

It was a long day and I'm off to bed. I have listened to the CD. First reaction - very clean and clear readings. No. 2 sounds leaner and more muscular. The Finale again shows itself to be the strongest and most important movement. I listened out for Vandermolen's favourite passage at 11:30 - I concur. I had never heard that passage in that way, but he is right, it really is a breakthrough of light, which is not to last. As for 14 - as things now stand, I think the Downes has more mystery. But that could also be due to the bad recording sound!

To bed!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: André on July 14, 2016, 03:59:06 PM
Having picked discs, internet links and youtube vids without restraint these last few years, I *think* I have all the Brian symphonies extant - 32 of them to be precise (* too lazy to get up and check, and only 10 fingers to count).

However, quantity does not make up for quality. My latest Brian listening binge a couple of years ago left me both unsatisfied and saturated. The trouble is that, in such a huge output, the products out there fail to meet expectations. From radio broadcasts to studio recordings, from student orchestras to professional ensembles, from haphazard programming to coherent programs, I find it difficult to make up a cogent aural image of the composer (he did, after all had a long career).

I wish there would be a serious effort to bring his oeuvre to light in a better way. Pending that, it's akin to travelling a bumpy country road with the occasional inn or rest area.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 14, 2016, 04:14:12 PM
Quote from: André on July 14, 2016, 03:59:06 PM
Having picked discs, internet links and youtube vids without restraint these last few years, I *think* I have all the Brian symphonies extant - 32 of them to be precise (* too lazy to get up and check, and only 10 fingers to count).

However, quantity does not make up for quality. My latest Brian listening binge a couple of years ago left me both unsatisfied and saturated. The trouble is that, in such a huge output, the products out there fail to meet expectations. From radio broadcasts to studio recordings, from student orchestras to professional ensembles, from haphazard programming to coherent programs, I find it difficult to make up a cogent aural image of the composer (he did, after all had a long career).

I wish there would be a serious effort to bring his oeuvre to light in a better way. Pending that, it's akin to travelling a bumpy country road with the occasional inn or rest area.

I suppose this is where my trouble lies with Brian as well or at least to some extent. There's no question that the composer knew his craft and conjured up all kinds of interesting things, but the question I'm always left with after I hear a Brian piece is: did the music move me? I have yet to find one work of Brian's that has touched my heart and made me want to return again. Also a part of the trouble, for me, lies with Brian becoming merely a listening 'project'. I mean the guy composed A LOT of music and has a huge oeuvre, but where does the 'project' I began actually end and I'm just enjoying the music in the moment? This just doesn't happen and so, in turn, I get discouraged, which these reasons are why I haven't returned to Brian's music, because I can't find one positive reason as to why I should. I suppose ultimately what I'm looking for in music is melody, a great sense of harmony, lyricism, moments of pure heartbreak, and just a general dramatic atmosphere, but not the Wagnerian sense of dramatics. ;) Unfortunately, I have to file Brian in the unlistenable category for now. I haven't closed the door completely, though. I'm going to keep trying, but the road ahead doesn't shine too brightly.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: André on July 14, 2016, 04:33:50 PM
Very well put, although I think I'm a wee bit more optimistic than you are.  ;)

For some time I had the same problem with the Langgard symphonies, running from very short to very long, cryptic and elliptic to effusively lyrical and broadly expansive, from post-straussian and scriabinesque to whatever it is that late Langgaard can be described as. Like I had done for Brian, I collected discs from all kinds of provenances, all of which had differing perspectives and miens. A hodge-podge for sure.

To make sure I had a coherent picture I purchased the integral set from Dausgaard on Dacapo. To be honest, I have no idea if the individual interpretations are better than those on the other labels I had. But it definitely helped put the whole shebang in a unified perspective. Because that is what is needed with Langaard: the man-as-composer was a beast with multiple heads.

I suspect such an enterprise would do Brian a lot of good.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 14, 2016, 05:20:00 PM
Quote from: André on July 14, 2016, 04:33:50 PM
Very well put, although I think I'm a wee bit more optimistic than you are.  ;)

For some time I had the same problem with the Langgard symphonies, running from very short to very long, cryptic and elliptic to effusively lyrical and broadly expansive, from post-straussian and scriabinesque to whatever it is that late Langgaard can be described as. Like I had done for Brian, I collected discs from all kinds of provenances, all of which had differing perspectives and miens. A hodge-podge for sure.

To make sure I had a coherent picture I purchased the integral set from Dausgaard on Dacapo. To be honest, I have no idea if the individual interpretations are better than those on the other labels I had. But it definitely helped put the whole shebang in a unified perspective. Because that is what is needed with Langaard: the man-as-composer was a beast with multiple heads.

I suspect such an enterprise would do Brian a lot of good.

Unfortunately, Brian is one of those niche composers (as many of the more unknown, or obscure, composers are) and only appeals to a certain select group of listeners, which this ongoing composer thread has faithfully demonstrated. Take Brian outside of this thread and possibly the Brian-related threads on other forums and the HBS (Havergal Brian Society) and what are you left with? Yes, the music is being recorded and these listeners are buying the recordings, but what lies beyond this? What's the bigger picture? Several GMGers attended Brian's Gothic when it was given a performance at the BBC Proms, but what about his other works? Who, besides the Brian fans here (and elsewhere), will be going to attend a concert of Brian's Symphony No. 6 if it's ever performed in London or elsewhere? I think a conductor such as a Dausgaard or an Alsop can record a composer's oeuvre and receive the go ahead from the record labels, but what this does for the composer's reputation remains a question mark. Langgaard was rescued from relative obscurity, but did this championship from Dausgaard do him any favors as far as being heard and brought to a wider audience? Again, the idea of the niche groups of listeners comes into play here. Perhaps a question is how can a big name conductor such as a Chailly or a Salonen bring the composer out of obscurity and into the public's conscious? I'm afraid in this regard it'll never happen, but perhaps I do need to be a bit more optimistic? :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: André on July 14, 2016, 05:43:59 PM
I don't think a 'big name conductor' is the answer to that conundrum. They are too busy planning their next concert seasons on three different continents plus various and sundry engagements on the main circuit. Big name conductors enter the 'inner circle' at their risks and perils. They are forever forbidden to have original thoughts in terms of programming. They are trapped !!

That being said, enterprising projects have seen the light of day: Neschling's Villa-Lobos cycle on CPO or the same label's dutch composers series, or Chandos' Weinberg symphonies (should it ever be completed) are a good example. A single perspective. Just so we, mere music lovers, can make up our minds.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 14, 2016, 06:03:01 PM
Quote from: André on July 14, 2016, 05:43:59 PM
I don't think a 'big name conductor' is the answer to that conundrum. They are too busy planning their next concert seasons on three different continents plus various and sundry engagements on the main circuit. Big name conductors enter the 'inner circle' at their risks and perils. They are forever forbidden to have original thoughts in terms of programming. They are trapped !!

That being said, enterprising projects have seen the light of day: Neschling's Villa-Lobos cycle on CPO or the same label's dutch composers series, or Chandos' Weinberg symphonies (should it ever be completed) are a good example. A single perspective. Just so we, mere music lovers, can make up our minds.

Wouldn't you say the real problem lies with the general lack of interest in Brian's music itself and not necessarily with the recordings? From my own perspective, recordings aren't necessarily 'the problem'. The lack of unity or a recording project is something that can't be helped with Brian as there's nothing that can be done about it or that will be done it. It seems to stem from listeners just genuinely not having any interest or they have heard some of the music and didn't enjoy it. I mean when I listen to Sibelius, for example, I come away with something. A sense of fulfillment and a better appreciation of his music. It doesn't necessarily boil down to a conductor's singular vision, it boils down to the music making me proud that I listened and stuck around for it to finish. The music itself allures me. But I understand this is an apples/oranges scenario when I make comparisons with Sibelius who has had no shortage of unified visions and recording projects.

P.S. You must be referring to Carl St. Clair's Villa-Lobos symphony cycle on CPO and not Neschling (who recorded the Bachianas Brasileiras, Choros, and Forest of the Amazon for the BIS label).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: André on July 14, 2016, 06:22:37 PM
Thanks, I got mixed up in my CPO discs. It is St-Clair indeed, anything but a name conductor!

Okay, I understand your POV, but mine (pretty much the same) is that maybe a different angle and lighting perspective would allow us to figure out if the music is at fault, or some other factor. And by what margin.

I'm still not convinced Charles Ives is a great composer or just a musical cuckoo. PhD theses galore have been written on his life and works. But the lack (IMHO) of a comprehensive aural testimony is not helping. Plus the fact that the man was very active in many genres.

As far as I know, Brian's output is limited to his symphonies and occasional orchestral score - a view that will probably be obsolete eventually.

Be that as it may, the 'niche composer' concept is certainly one that applies to Havergal Brian, as it does to Florent Schmitt, Goffredo Petrassi or Julius Röntgen. In all honesty, it should lead to a better understanding of these composr's works.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 14, 2016, 06:43:05 PM
Quote from: André on July 14, 2016, 06:22:37 PM
Thanks, I got mixed up in my CPO discs. It is St-Clair indeed, anything but a name conductor!

Okay, I understand your POV, but mine (pretty much the same) is that maybe a different angle and lighting perspective would allow us to figure out if the music is at fault, or some other factor. And by what margin.

I'm still not convinced Charles Ives is a great composer or just a musical cuckoo. PhD theses galore have been written on his life and works. But the lack (IMHO) of a comprehensive aural testimony is not helping. Plus the fact that the man was very active in many genres.

As far as I know, Brian's output is limited to his symphonies and occasional orchestral score - a view that will probably be obsolete eventually.

Be that as it may, the 'niche composer' concept is certainly one that applies to Havergal Brian, as it does to Florent Schmitt, Goffredo Petrassi or Julius Röntgen. In all honesty, it should lead to a better understanding of these composr's works.

In all honesty, I doubt a major recording project would make me look at Brian's music any differently, but, yes, the man wrote a lot of music and a lot of it doesn't really get the kind of attention his symphonies do, but one last thing about all of this and then I promise I'll drop it, even if a composer has a huge oeuvre like Martinu or Villa-Lobos with Brian, I'm still left scratching my head as even with all of the scattered recordings of Villa-Lobos and Martinu that are available, I still have an idea of who they were as composers and what their styles consist of and, more importantly, how they sound when they're inspired or whenever I feel they're just note-spinning. With Brian, I don't know whether he's note-spinning or yanking my chain or anything because his music doesn't have anything within it that pulls at my heartstrings or gives me intellectual stimulation or both. It's just there for me to hear and that's all.

Okay, I think I'll put a sock in it now as I've derailed this thread for too long and I don't want to take up any more of people's time, especially for those that are fans of Brian's music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: André on July 14, 2016, 07:00:42 PM
MI. I honestly have the very same reaction.  ;)

Only, my old banker's attitude is to collect all the facts PLUS my personal feelings before I make a decision. In this case, I simply feel the facts are not sufficient to carry the argument one way or the other. I just wish the 'facts' were more tightly and cogently put together.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on July 14, 2016, 07:49:25 PM
Quote from: André on July 14, 2016, 07:00:42 PM
MI. I honestly have the very same reaction.  ;)

Only, my old banker's attitude is to collect all the facts PLUS my personal feelings before I make a decision. In this case, I simply feel the facts are not sufficient to carry the argument one way or the other. I just wish the 'facts' were more tightly and cogently put together.

Well, I didn't really look at any of this as an argument, but merely an expressing of two different ideals of why Brian isn't a more well-known composer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 14, 2016, 10:21:52 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2016, 11:34:35 AM
One would expect a Brian Exit to mean fast shipping.
Very good!  8)

Glad you liked that passage in the last movement too.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 14, 2016, 10:26:00 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2016, 12:41:50 PM
Just returned home from my aunt's 90th birthday to find the CD on my doormat!!
What a shame that it didn't arrive before the birthday gathering. I'm sure that having the Havergal Brian played by you at top volume would have been the 'icing on the cake' for your aunt's birthday celebrations.  8)
Hope she had a nice day despite this disappointment.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 15, 2016, 01:41:15 AM
Interesting to hear your reactions to the new cd,Johann. I've just received Vol 3 of The Symphonies of Havergal Brian by Malcolm MacDonald. It IS in 'Very Good' condition. A nice clean edition  complete with dustjacket;unlike Volume 1,which didn't have one. The book is about a hundred,or so,pages fatter than Vol 1;so plenty to read there. I haven't had time to really look at it yet,though;but a cursory leaf through tells me that this is allot more than just an appendix. I think this book is probably.....IS.....essential reading for converts to the cause and would be of great help to those who are intrigued but still somewhat baffled by exactly what turns us Brian enthusiasts on. Unfortunately,the books are out of print. Isn't there any hope of these books being republished? Long out of print books do get republished,and I know that these books have done allot to open peoples minds to Brian's muse. I know the Rutland Boughton Trust managed to secure a reprint of Michael Hurd's,so it can be done. Three volumes,though!!
Nice to see some other GMG Forum members contributing to the thread. I think it's possible they may be right about Brian remaining a niche interest. That said,I do think it is possible that recordings of the quality of the recent ones from Dutton and Naxos can do allot to introduce new listeners and maybe make that niche audience a little larger. Of course it's quite possible (and possibly true) that either you 'get' Brian's muse or you don't. Needless to say,I DO!

That 'Seer' won't be getting the sack,by the way. 'He' was almost right. Although,I'm still trying to get my head around the fact that a package that was to be delivered tomorrow was already there!! ???

Incidentally,what do you think of the organ,Johann?!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 15, 2016, 01:27:18 PM
I have been listening to the new CD. I had to get used to the great sound, as an ancient Brianite you're so used to bad recordings. Brabbins clearly has thought deeply about the two works, his tempi show it. He knows exactly how to keep things moving. I did have to adjust a bit, because he does things very differently from Mackerras and Rowe. To mention only one thing - the introduction of the opening of the first movement of 2. It builds towards the first theme in three waves. Mackerras and Rowe (iirc) maintain one tempo, but Brabbins varies it and accelerates, and when the first theme arrives, his tempo is slower and more deliberate than in the other performances. The result is more differentiation and in the case of the slower tempo much more detail can be heard. And this goes for his whole approach. You really hear a lot, much more than ever before, in both symphonies. I'm still digesting what I have been hearing, but one thing is certain: I like what I hear.

As for the discussion between André and John: I sympathise. The point for me: I have known Brian since age 16 and never had any trouble entering his world. Malcolm MacDonald certainly played his part, but the fact remains that the music spoke my language since day one.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 15, 2016, 02:37:21 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on July 15, 2016, 01:27:18 PM
As for the discussion between André and John: I sympathise. The point for me: I have known Brian since age 16 and never had any trouble entering his world. Malcolm MacDonald certainly played his part, but the fact remains that the music spoke my language since day one.

I agree, I heard my first Brian when I was 18, which was the English Suite No.5, not very typical, but compelling, and then from the early 1990s onwards each work that became available and his music just sounds eminently natural and likeable to me (never unchallenging of course): for me C20 music is seen with Brian as a constituent part, not Brian as an add-on who has to be explained.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 15, 2016, 02:55:02 PM
Do you think this recording has genuinely led you to revise your opinion of the Second Symphony now? I seem to recall that you regarded the symphony as flawed. I also remember that you referred to it as being like a "chained giant. The comparison both appealed and stuck with me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 15, 2016, 03:03:42 PM
Good question... I remain of the opinion that that first theme is in mvt 1 is rather weak after all the build-up. The slower tempo does strengthen it a bit, though. There are great similarities in atmosphere between the Bax 2 and the Brian 2, both are febrile and catastrophic. As for the 'chained giant' metaphor, I think it still applies, and also to its successor. Symphony 2 ends where it started, and the Coda of no. 3, for all its triumphalism, has something desperate about it, like a man banging on a door (an impression I got the very first time I heard it). How do I rate 2 now? Higher.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 15, 2016, 04:31:29 PM
I think that Brian's symphonies 2 and 3, great though they are are sort of trapped in the Germanic heritage, which Brian than exorcises in No.4. The next two symphonies explore a more impressionistic, perhaps French sound (No.5) and a celtic soundscape (No.6). When Brian returns to the Germanic in No.7 it's completely different, Brian not being trapped by anything.

My take anyway.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 15, 2016, 09:11:43 PM
Your take makes a lot of sense. I think you might be right.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 17, 2016, 08:48:19 PM
I recently joined the Havergal Brian Society and I have been listening to a few recordings from their streaming audio page which aren't available anyway else, or are better quality than those versions we have from Albion's archive. I thought I'd share a few thoughts...

(Incidentally my wife is vastly amused by my joining the Society, she says she's going to change her name to Hilda, and she thinks this is my final descent into total eccentricity... so to guy her some more I told her I was going to buy a Society mug when I ordered something else from them!)

Anyway:
1.     There is a better recording of No.26 (the Handley performance). I have finally heard the wood-block in the second movement, though it's very difficult to hear and suspect it wouldn't be very obvious in the new forthcoming performance either. I have confirmed my view that I like this symphony contra MacDonald's views. I think it's just a light-hearted interlude type symphony, and it contains some beautiful music, like the transition between the scherzo first half of the finale and the finale proper.
2.     There is a better quality version of the radio performance of No.24 (Myer Fredman conducting). I prefer this one to the Naxos recording because it takes the final part more slowly. In the poorer quality version I had heard there was one phrase which sounded rather cloying when this passage was taken more slowly, but listening to this version I don't hear that at all, and, as I said, I prefer this slower tempo. (Wasn't Fredman a great conductor? He moved to Australia in the early 80s and conducted several works with the Sydney Symphony, including the TV production of Sculthorpe's opera Quiros, but unfortunately there are very few of his recordings currently in the catalogue).
3.     There is a better quality version of the radio broadcast of Agamemnon. Now you can hear what the singers are singing and, although I don't have the version HB used for the libretto, following it through with another translation you can see what a good job HB made of cutting the text down to make a very concise opera. (This is because he wanted it performed as a prologue to Strauss's Electra, so didn't want to make too long an evening of it). However, if it is listened to as a free-standing opera I think it's actually too short. If you were to set the full text it would take 4 hours or so (the original was 'all-singing, all-dancing', so when performed in classical Greece it must have taken about this long). I think HB would have been better to compose it at about 1.5 hours long because as it is the opera is too hurried: Agamemnon comes home, has a few words, the chorus frets, Cassandra is prophetic, Agamemnon gets the chop, the chorus defies Clytaemnestra, the end. Perhaps he was already too practised in very concise musical utterances to become expansive again (Agamemnon came after Symphony No.12).
4.     There is a concert performance of The Cenci from the late 90s. This is an amazing opera, and following it through the Complete Works of Shelley once again you appreciate what a fantastic job HB did in cutting down Shelley's awful Shakespearian pastiche. However, although the music is as powerful as you'd expect coming between Symphonies 9 & 10, I don't think it's a successful opera either. Basically the plot is that Count Cenci is an old villain and wants to consummate a life in crime by raping his daughter Beatrice. She arranges for people to murder her father, but they are discovered and the Church has no mercy on them (although it turned a blind eye to her father's crimes in return for payments). It just doesn't feel like a good subject for an opera, it's too weird and gothic.

The Tigers I think is a wholly successful opera, perhaps because Brian wrote his own libretto and found the right length that way. I suspect that Turandot, if recorded would be successful, because it sets a libretto from a practised playwright and probably wouldn't be too truncated, or too long. But I'm not sure about Faust, I suspect Faust is one for the germanophiles... but, we shall see.

One further thought is how important the BBC recordings of Brain are still, even though we now have modern recordings of almost all the symphonies as well. The conductors were some of the great names of the 60s and 70s and they had input sometimes from HB himself, sometimes from people who had spoken to him about the works like Simpson and MacDonald. I hope that Itter recorded some of these on his high quality equipment and that Lyrita issues them in due course.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 18, 2016, 09:28:49 PM
Many thanks for all your thoughts, Calyptorhynchus!  And sorry for responding so late. The jury is still out on Brian the opera composer. The operas contain excellent music, that's for sure; Tigers and Turandot are especially rich, hence the great suites we love so well. Brian's writing for the human voice is more problematic for me; that's why I have my problems with Cenci and Agamemnon. The Prologue to Faust, on the other hand, is perfect, both vocally and orchestrally, and I'm very glad the HBS has started the Faust Fund to have the work recorded in due course. I'll check out the Recordings Library and see how I now rate 26. No. 24 under Fredman, I agree, is excellent, and preferable to the Naxos because of the slower tempo of the final Adagio.

I have been listening to the new Dutton CD and enjoy it enormously. What a strange work the Second Symphony is! But it hangs together very well. It has risen in my estimation.

Give my regards to your wife Hilda...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on July 19, 2016, 01:20:38 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 15, 2016, 02:37:21 PMfor me C20 music is seen with Brian as a constituent part, not Brian as an add-on who has to be explained.
That's exactly as it should be.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on July 21, 2016, 04:10:33 AM
I've now listened to the new Dutton disc a good number of times.  I think No.14 has really come up in my estimation, in the same way as No.13 did with the earlier Brabbins disc.  From the Downes recording I had always considered it one of the least successful of Brian's symphonies and heard it as a series of disconnected sections, all of which could have formed the germ of a symphony in itself.  Brabbins has managed to unify it so that I can't even begin to see how I heard it that way before.  The organ sound is spectacular.

No.2 remains a strangely transitional work.  The finale is still my favourite movement and is steeped in Brian's funeral march style.  Previously, I've always had difficulty noticing when it's moved into the second movement.  The previous recordings seem to minimise any contrast between the first two movements.  In this recording, the move from first to second movements is much more clearly signalled.  Overall, I don't find it nearly as satisfying as No.3 (and wouldn't it be wonderful to hear what Brabbins and Dutton's sound would do to that) but this recording makes the strongest possible case for it.  I love the limpid clarity of the long string section in the last movement.  It makes one regret Brian never wrote a whole work for string orchestra, though the Reverie from English Suite 5 is a beautiful piece.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2016, 04:22:01 AM
Interesting observations, Augustus. Though I like No. 2 far better than I did before, it remains a strange work, I agree. The second theme of the opening movement is pure Hollywood in its lushness; I feel it's more of a hyper-romantic gesture than an honest expression (how to distinguish those... I know). For honesty of expression you have to go to the funereal final movement, also my favourite of the four (though the 'battle' Scherzo is thrilling!) As for No. 14, I always liked it. I like it even better now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on July 21, 2016, 08:03:18 AM
I find the last two movements of Symphony No. 2 to be far more memorable than the first two.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 21, 2016, 10:39:47 AM
I like the whole Symphony! ;D The Second is one of my all time favourite Brian symphonies;although even I have to admit that there are moments,particularly in the first movement,where Brian seems to be struggling with his material. There are moments of note spinning,and Brian seems to have difficulty welding his ideas into a convincing whole (as opposed to hole! ;D). But then that's allot of the fascination of the piece. The feeling of some epic struggle going on. There is that wonderful,'romantic' theme,that Johann refers to,as being "pure Hollywood",alternating with some quite tortuous string writing. If it's Hollywood,it's through a glass darkly. The epic nature and the rejected program and inspiration from Goethe bringing to mind some other late Romantic works that evoke loneliness of the artistic,tortured kind. For example,Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony,the epic programatic symphonies of Berlioz (one of Brian's heroes) and literary creations like Melmoth the Wanderer. That kind of theme has always appealed to me. The nocturnal atmosphere of  much of Mahler's Seventh also springs to mind;but there is no resemblance to the music itself. Like Mahler's Seventh it's not one of the composers most successful creations,and it shares some of the astringency of the string writing (shades of later Brian,there).Like Mahler's Seventh,it's very flaws,only serve to increase ones fascination (although,like Mahler's Seventh,it will always divide opinion). Fortunately,Brian's orchestration compensates for any structural shortcomings;and there is something wonderfully enigmatic about the music which truly fascinates me. Yes,the third is a more convincing creation in terms of structural cohesion and the consistency and almost,mind boggling profusion of ideas.But Brian's Second Symphony is,in it's own way,an astonishing achievement;and however many times I listen to it,there always seems to be something new to hear.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 21, 2016, 02:19:31 PM
Great piece, cilgwyn! I certainly wish Brabbins would do No. 3. I have become more attuned to his way of conducting Brian. I can even sense an evolution in the way he shapes the music. Brabbins really 'gets' Brian and he makes his music sound natural and unforced.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 21, 2016, 03:37:19 PM
My Symphony No 2/14 hasn't arrived yet.

Re "film music", I often come across themes or passages that sound like film music in early C20 music, especially in the works of Bax  :) There's even a theme in the first movement of Vaughan Williams Symphony No 6 that sounds a bit like music for a western!

However, you have to think that Hollywood music didn't really get going till the 1940s, so it's more a case of film composers imitating lush romantic themes from classical music of the generations before.

As to the "early" works of Brian (ie those written from his 50s to his 70s), I don't enjoy them as much as his later works, but is fascinating when listening to them to think that here is a five minute passage of the kind of music that the later Brian would have compressed down to 30 seconds, here is a transition that the later Brian would simply have omitted &c In fact some really enterprising Brian aficionado with composing tendencies could probably recompose the second in the style of later Brian and make it last about 15-18 minutes.

(Ps, I really like genuine early Brian, ie pre WW1)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 21, 2016, 03:46:13 PM
Not bad for me! ;D Yes,he seems to get more in tune with Brian's muse with every cd. The tenth was very good,but after putting on the LSSO recording the 'storm' seemed rather tame in comparison. I have a feeling he would do a better job of it now,if he had the chance. I'm sure he'd relish another crack at it. Maybe he'll get a chance one day?! Meanwhile,I really do hope that we will get a third symphony from this team. I have really got to the point where I really do think he could challenge,or even,supplant Pope! So far the Brabbins/Dutton team have managed to confound my expectations,and preconceptions,with their recordings of the Violim Concerto,the Wine of Summer and Festal Dance'so why not?!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 22, 2016, 12:46:02 AM
calyptorhyncus! Some interesting posts along those lines,in relation to the new Dutton Gardner/Veale cd,at the AMF at the moment. With respect to the Magnificent Seven. I love the soundtrack to the film. If I hadn't bought the Dutton cd already I would have probably bought the cd after reading BrianA's post! And let's not forget that Korngold was composing music that sounded like erm,Hollywood,years before the talkies. And all the better for it. I love Korngold!! I'd never thought of the theme in the fist movement of Brian's Second as being redolent of Hollywood,but thinking about it now,I can see what Johann means. It certainly stays in my head. One of Brian's 'catchiest' themes,perhaps? I also rather like the way the tortuous string writing,and astringency,around it empasises it. Man in his cosmic loneliness indeed!

calyptorhyncus! Some interesting posts along those lines,in relation to the new Dutton Gardner/Veale cd,at the AMF at the moment. With respect to the Magnificent Seven. I love the soundtrack to the film. If I hadn't bought the Dutton cd already I would have probably bought the cd after reading BrianA's post! And let's not forget that Korngold was composing music that sounded like erm,Hollywood,years before the talkies. And all the better for it. I love Korngold!! I'd never thought of the theme in the fist movement of Brian's Second as being redolent of Hollywood,but thinking about it now,I can see what Johann means. It certainly stays in my head. One of Brian's 'catchiest' themes,perhaps? I also rather like the way the tortuous string writing,and astringency,around it empasises it. Man in his cosmic loneliness indeed!

I've been listening to  Rob Inglis' unabridged narration of The Hobbit,by the way (I know you're a Tolkein fan,Johann). Don't know why I'm telling you this,but I've got it on cassette,and I think his readings are fantastic. Like Brabbins he really gets under the skin of the mans muse. Anyway,it's a bit late now........ ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on July 22, 2016, 01:34:45 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 21, 2016, 03:37:19 PM
However, you have to think that Hollywood music didn't really get going till the 1940s, so it's more a case of film composers imitating lush romantic themes from classical music of the Generaties before.

IMHO the best example are Holst's The Planets, from 1914-16. Often accused of sounding like film music, where it cannot be but completely the other way around: limitless imitation by later generations of film composers of a style that was completely original, around 1915.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 22, 2016, 04:01:05 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 17, 2016, 08:48:19 PM
I recently joined the Havergal Brian Society and I have been listening to a few recordings from their streaming audio page which aren't available anyway else, or are better quality than those versions we have from Albion's archive. I thought I'd share a few thoughts...

(Incidentally my wife is vastly amused by my joining the Society, she says she's going to change her name to Hilda, and she thinks this is my final descent into total eccentricity... so to guy her some more I told her I was going to buy a Society mug when I ordered something else from them!)

Anyway:
1.     There is a better recording of No.26 (the Handley performance). I have finally heard the wood-block in the second movement, though it's very difficult to hear and suspect it wouldn't be very obvious in the new forthcoming performance either. I have confirmed my view that I like this symphony contra MacDonald's views. I think it's just a light-hearted interlude type symphony, and it contains some beautiful music, like the transition between the scherzo first half of the finale and the finale proper.
2.     There is a better quality version of the radio performance of No.24 (Myer Fredman conducting). I prefer this one to the Naxos recording because it takes the final part more slowly. In the poorer quality version I had heard there was one phrase which sounded rather cloying when this passage was taken more slowly, but listening to this version I don't hear that at all, and, as I said, I prefer this slower tempo. (Wasn't Fredman a great conductor? He moved to Australia in the early 80s and conducted several works with the Sydney Symphony, including the TV production of Sculthorpe's opera Quiros, but unfortunately there are very few of his recordings currently in the catalogue).
3.     There is a better quality version of the radio broadcast of Agamemnon. Now you can hear what the singers are singing and, although I don't have the version HB used for the libretto, following it through with another translation you can see what a good job HB made of cutting the text down to make a very concise opera. (This is because he wanted it performed as a prologue to Strauss's Electra, so didn't want to make too long an evening of it). However, if it is listened to as a free-standing opera I think it's actually too short. If you were to set the full text it would take 4 hours or so (the original was 'all-singing, all-dancing', so when performed in classical Greece it must have taken about this long). I think HB would have been better to compose it at about 1.5 hours long because as it is the opera is too hurried: Agamemnon comes home, has a few words, the chorus frets, Cassandra is prophetic, Agamemnon gets the chop, the chorus defies Clytaemnestra, the end. Perhaps he was already too practised in very concise musical utterances to become expansive again (Agamemnon came after Symphony No.12).
4.     There is a concert performance of The Cenci from the late 90s. This is an amazing opera, and following it through the Complete Works of Shelley once again you appreciate what a fantastic job HB did in cutting down Shelley's awful Shakespearian pastiche. However, although the music is as powerful as you'd expect coming between Symphonies 9 & 10, I don't think it's a successful opera either. Basically the plot is that Count Cenci is an old villain and wants to consummate a life in crime by raping his daughter Beatrice. She arranges for people to murder her father, but they are discovered and the Church has no mercy on them (although it turned a blind eye to her father's crimes in return for payments). It just doesn't feel like a good subject for an opera, it's too weird and gothic.

The Tigers I think is a wholly successful opera, perhaps because Brian wrote his own libretto and found the right length that way. I suspect that Turandot, if recorded would be successful, because it sets a libretto from a practised playwright and probably wouldn't be too truncated, or too long. But I'm not sure about Faust, I suspect Faust is one for the germanophiles... but, we shall see.

One further thought is how important the BBC recordings of Brain are still, even though we now have modern recordings of almost all the symphonies as well. The conductors were some of the great names of the 60s and 70s and they had input sometimes from HB himself, sometimes from people who had spoken to him about the works like Simpson and MacDonald. I hope that Itter recorded some of these on his high quality equipment and that Lyrita issues them in due course.

Sounds grrrreeeeeat!! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 24, 2016, 10:40:03 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 14, 2016, 03:43:00 PM
No 14.....then No2. I like it! I suspect Sarge will be taking the same route,when he gets his!!

Exactly. Listening to 14 now  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2016, 10:43:28 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 24, 2016, 10:40:03 AM
Exactly. Listening to 14 now  8)

Sarge

Report back, Sarge!

I'm off to feed two rabbits...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on July 24, 2016, 11:25:34 AM
For curiosity's sake, what are the timings for the Dutton 2 & 14?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 24, 2016, 11:29:32 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on July 24, 2016, 11:25:34 AM
For curiosity's sake, what are the timings for the Dutton 2 & 14?

I'm not at home. Will check later. Suffice it to say, Brabbins is faster in both works, which is to their advantage.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 24, 2016, 11:37:41 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on July 24, 2016, 11:25:34 AM
For curiosity's sake, what are the timings for the Dutton 2 & 14?

2: 10:48  13:55  5:43  16:17

14: 21:33

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on July 24, 2016, 11:57:29 AM
Thanks. Hmm. No. 2 taken substantially quicker than Rowe.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 25, 2016, 08:04:44 AM
You can view the progress of the fund to record Faust,at the HB Society website,via a graph. It currently stands at  approximately 80% of the total required. I've just been looking at how much it has progressed since May 1st!!
Wow!!! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 25, 2016, 08:06:12 AM
I saw it, too. I'm glad we do so well without me (not very rich, me).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 25, 2016, 01:50:41 PM
Well, the new 2 & 14 arrived yesterday and I listened to it last night.

Definitely a must-have for Brianites, no.2 is amazing in this recording. Mackerras and Rowe both made this symphony seem ponderous and lumbering (except the scherzo, of course), but Brabbins makes it weighty, but light-footed, so it seems to go by much more quickly than the other two accounts (even though it's only a few minutes difference). The whole orchestration seems lighter, the organ is more prominent in the (few) passages it appears in and the scherzo is much more assured with the full 16 horns. Definitely the best performance so far. Very interested to read John Pickard's sleeve-notes, noting that the symphony ends in E major, despite MacDonald's assertion of a bare-fifth ending. I listened and I think both are right, the major third is there, but is seems to be replaced by the bare-fifth-ending, guess it's a matter of judgement. But generally John Pickard seems to have slipped easily into Malcolm MacDonald's shoes as erudite Brian commentator, wonder if he will write three volumes on the symphonies  :)

No.14 sounds much better than the Downes recording, again with a more prominent organ (towards the end), but 14 remains my least favourite Brian symphony.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 25, 2016, 08:50:58 PM
Your experience of the Second is identical to mine. It's as if Mackerras and Rowe weren't 'fluent' enough in speaking Brian's language here; Brabbins has mastered it completely, so the music flows with absolute naturalness. A pity you don't warm to No. 14 even in better sound... But those things happen. I cannot see John Picard writing a study about Brian, but he certainly understands his music from the inside. That's not so surprising, since he has lived with it since the late 70s, just like me. John studied composition with Louis Andriessen in The Hague somewhere around 1985. He and I didn't meet, but a few letters passed back and forth. I only met him in 1987 (? must check) in Birmingham at an amateur performance of the Third Symphony where he helped out in the percussion department...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 05, 2016, 12:00:10 PM
An interesting post about the new Dutton cd on the "Re Sullivan and Brian" thread,by Dundonnell,at the Art Music Forum;particular his comments about No 14. I wonder if anyone here agrees with him? I don't,since No 14 is now a favourite;and I don't expect Sarge will......or possibly,calyptorhyncus?
I'm listening to Khatchaturian,at the moment!! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 05, 2016, 12:14:53 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 05, 2016, 12:00:10 PM
An interesting post about the new Dutton cd on the "Re Sullivan and Brian" thread,by Dundonnell,at the Art Music Forum;particular his comments about No 14. I wonder if anyone here agrees with him? I don't,since No 14 is now a favourite;and I don't expect Sarge will......or possibly,calyptorhyncus?
I'm listening to Khatchaturian,at the moment!! ??? ;D

If it's anything negative about 14, no, I'll not likely agree. Can you give us the link to the post?

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 05, 2016, 01:19:17 PM
Let's hope this get's you there:

http://artmusic.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=5428.msg27062#msg27062

Scroll down!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 05, 2016, 01:30:28 PM
Colin happens to have emailed me his contribution. To have it here too:

I am just too busy at the moment to go to the GMG and read what must be there about the new Dutton release of the Brian 2nd and 14th. This is what I have written on the ARt Music Forum: "I am slightly surprised that there has not been more comment on the new Dutton cd of the Brian Symphonies Nos. 2 and 14.

My own response having listened to the two symphonies a number of times is that the No.2 is indeed a magnificent work, given a superlative performance with the full orchestral complement as Brian had hoped for. The last two movements in particular are absolutely wonderful, grand, imposing, powerful, masterful, in awe-inspiring sound quality.

Paradoxically (and sadly) however-and I know full well that others will disagree-I am now more convinced that Malcolm MacDonald was correct about No.14 after all. I used to resist his opinion of the work and argued about it with him but now I am inclined to see exactly what he meant. The work has some impressive moments but Brian does not take them anywhere. The work does not quite gel. John Pickard, who had a huge job editing the score, feels that Brian was just "not firing on all cylinders" when he wrote the work. Re-reading what Malcolm wrote all these years ago and listening to the piece I think he was right. It is not Brian at his best. And as I listen to it I get the distinct impression that Brabbins and the RSNO are struggling with the work's coherence (or lack of it)."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 05, 2016, 01:33:06 PM
My response (for what it's worth, and I have changed my mind...):

I think I agree with the verdict about 14. Both 13 and 14 are problematic. It's always a bit difficult to know what any Brian symphony is 'about'. With the strong ones, though, you get a sense of coherence and progression. 13 and 14 are more episodic and the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts. As for 2, I have come to appreciate it much more. It's a tense and catastrophic work, ideally suited to the world today, alas.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 05, 2016, 01:35:41 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 05, 2016, 01:19:17 PM
Let's hope this get's you there:

http://artmusic.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=5428.msg27062#msg27062

Scroll down!

Thanks...the link got me there. Unfortunately my bazooka doesn't have enough range to hit Dundonnel from here. If only I had a 155mm howitzer  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 05, 2016, 01:40:10 PM
Last year I was consoling a Rugby League fan here in Australia. His team not only hadn't made the finals, but it had ended up bottom of the table. I said, very unhelpfully as it turned out, "well, one team has to come out on the bottom".

I think that Brian's output is so extraordinary and so large that it's a wonder that so many of his symphonies are of such high quality and hardly surprising that there are one or two that aren't so good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 05, 2016, 02:29:06 PM
Nice to see Sarge sticking to his gun (s) on this one!! ;D I just like the soundworld that Brian evokes in No's 13 & 14. It just happens to appeal to me. Maybe it isn't one of his most cogently argued efforts,but I just like the sounds and atmosphere it evokes in my mind,and it's relatively short span is just jam packed with interesting ideas. Some of the later ones get a bit strenuous. Albeit,some martial moments aside,No's 13 & 14,feel a bit more like some of the earlier ones,like No's 3 & 7 in terms of their general atmosphere,just very compressed. I find them a very satisfying follow up.  In fact,I think I would have liked to have seen No 14 coupled with No 2,even if it had been recorded before.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 05, 2016, 02:59:44 PM
What am I saying? The Seventh has it's share of 'martial' moments. It even opens with a fanfare!! (This migraine isn't helping. And no,it wasn't Khatchaturian!! ;D) No's 2,3,7,13 & 14 do seem to 'go' nicely together to my ears. Conversely,it was a nice idea of Naxos to couple No's 4 & 12.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 06, 2016, 02:43:18 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 05, 2016, 01:40:10 PM
Last year I was consoling a Rugby League fan here in Australia. His team not only hadn't made the finals, but it had ended up bottom of the table. I said, very unhelpfully as it turned out, "well, one team has to come out on the bottom".

I think that Brian's output is so extraordinary and so large that it's a wonder that so many of his symphonies are of such high quality and hardly surprising that there are one or two that aren't so good.
(At risk of taking to myself!! ;D) And all the more remarkable imho,calyptorhyncus,that even his less successful efforts are interesting to listen to! I love Martinu at his best,but even I have to admit that he composed allot of music that just comes over as note spinning. I won't name any pieces,because there is always bound to be someone who will be thinking,"that's one I like";but I can think of a few I've given up on! But,that's not to disparage his achievement. Composing is hard work and that's what they live for and enjoy doing. Furthermore,just because a composer produces one or two,or more,less inspired efforts doesn't diminish his overall achievement. Hovhaness is another example. I wouldn't care to compare him with a figure like Martinu,who is a composer of national significance in his own country;but,like Martinu,there is a lot of chaff amongst the wheat. Even more so in his case. I should know,I've listened through piles of Hovhaness cds in my time,and most of them ended up getting taken off to the local charity shop! But at his best I think he is a tremendously original and hugely rewarding composer. Maybe,he did compose too much,from our vantage point,but that's what he did,and he obviously enjoyed what he was doing. Anyway,that's how he worked;and if he hadn't produced some instances of what we might call note spinning.he wouldn't have produced the really good stuff that music lovers like myself enjoy and admire.
It's interesting that a cd like the present one from Dutton,with such superb recording sound quality and a seemingly intuitive undertanding of the music they are playing can actually have a negative impact on the person who is listening. Instead of actually enhancing their opinion of a work,it actually confirms their underlying doubts. But then maybe that's what a really good performance of a piece of music is all about? And opinion isn't always going to come down in favour of the composer.
Of course,if,like me and Sarge;the piece of music in question is a favourite piece of music,it doesn't really matter what anyone thinks. If you enoy it,you enjoy it;and at least from your (our!) point of view it's a very satisfying piece of music,otherwise you wouldn't keep wanting to play it!! In that regard I think Havergal Brian's Fourteenth Symphony is a very rewarding and successful example of his music and I will go on playing it.........along with the thirteenth..............and probably allot more than the Gothic (it's shorter! ;D) and some other supposedly less flawed efforts!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 06, 2016, 03:14:15 AM
For the record - both the Thirteenth and Fourteenth contain music I wouldn't miss for the world.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 06, 2016, 04:38:42 AM
Well put,Johann;and a reminder that some of my posts really could benefit from the concision of some of Brian's later symphonies! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 06, 2016, 04:41:13 AM
We all love you for your word cascades, cilgwyn. It's the Welshman in you - hwyl...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 06, 2016, 05:27:21 AM
BBC Music Magazine (September) conducted (no pun intended) a survey of 151 of 'the world's leading conductors' to ascertain the 20 greatest symphonies of all time. No real surprises but there was a section devoted to '10 Unusual Symphonic Choices' and, guess what, Brian's 'Gothic Symphony' was one of the ten, selected, unsurprisingly perhaps by Martyn Brabbins:

'Two orchestras, ten choirs, four soloists, a scarecrow [?] and a thunder machine are required for Brian's epic 'Gothic Symphony'. This mammoth work is often surprisingly delicate, eloquent solos offer a welcome contrast to the gargantuan full ensemble.'

I was also pleased to see Pettersson's 7th Symphony, Lyatoshinsky's 3rd Symphony and Sumera's 2nd Symphony included in this section.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 06, 2016, 05:33:16 AM
Thanks, Jeffrey!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 06, 2016, 05:40:22 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 06, 2016, 05:27:21 AM
BBC Music Magazine (September) conducted (no pun intended) a survey of 151 of 'the world's leading conductors' to ascertain the 20 greatest symphonies of all time. No real surprises but there was a section devoted to '10 Unusual Symphonic Choices' and, guess what, Brian's 'Gothic Symphony' was one of the ten, selected, unsurprisingly perhaps by Martyn Brabbins:

'Two orchestras, ten choirs, four soloists, a scarecrow [?] and a thunder machine are required for Brian's epic 'Gothic Symphony'. This mammoth work is often surprisingly delicate, eloquent solos offer a welcome contrast to the gargantuan full ensemble.'

I was also pleased to see Pettersson's 7th Symphony, Lyatoshinsky's 3rd Symphony and Sumera's 2nd Symphony included in this section.
Where did Tournemire's 7th rank?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 06, 2016, 06:54:40 AM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 06, 2016, 05:40:22 AM
Where did Tournemire's 7th rank?
Sadly not featured. Nor was Klaus Egge's 1st Symphony  :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on August 06, 2016, 07:23:51 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 06, 2016, 06:54:40 AM
Sadly not featured. Nor was Klaus Egge's 1st Symphony  :(
interesting piece, opens like Sibelius' 4th.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 06, 2016, 02:51:33 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on August 06, 2016, 07:23:51 AM
interesting piece, opens like Sibelius' 4th.
Never thought of that but you are absolutely right.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: André on August 06, 2016, 07:24:33 PM
Very interesting. I don't think that today's "unusual symphonic choices" are the same ones that would have come up 50 years ago (symphonies written after 1966), nor that they would be the same 30 years hence.

So, JEFFREY, it falls upon you to start that new thread with your "unusual symphonic choices" - let's keep that post 1916.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 07, 2016, 01:22:02 PM
Quote from: André on August 06, 2016, 07:24:33 PM
Very interesting. I don't think that today's "unusual symphonic choices" are the same ones that would have come up 50 years ago (symphonies written after 1966), nor that they would be the same 30 years hence.

So, JEFFREY, it falls upon you to start that new thread with your "unusual symphonic choices" - let's keep that post 1916.  ;)
Your wish is my command good friend :)
See 'The Polling Station'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Contemporaryclassical on August 09, 2016, 02:41:18 PM
His Gothic Symphony is a masterpiece, haven't heard much else besides that and symphonies 19 - 23. What else would you suggest?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on August 09, 2016, 07:29:24 PM
Symphony no. 8 seems to be fairly popular. Welcome to GMG by the way. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: pjme on August 12, 2016, 05:20:53 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 06, 2016, 05:27:21 AM


'Two orchestras, ten choirs, four soloists, a scarecrow [?] and a thunder machine are required for Brian's epic 'Gothic Symphony'. This mammoth work is often surprisingly delicate, eloquent solos offer a welcome contrast to the gargantuan full ensemble.'



From : http://www.havergalbrian.org/percussion.htm


Other instruments
Brian's handling of the other untuned percussion instruments is fairly conventional, although once again the Gothic provides a prescribed in Part Two, as are a thunder machine (Brian did not want the tinny thunder sheet that so often occurs and is so ineffectual) and a 'bird scare' (i.e. a football rattle - called 'scare crow' on page 184 of the published score).   However, for the vast majority of his works, Brian employs a normal section in the usual manner.  Thunder and wind machines turn up in Symphony no 10, and an Indian tabla in English Suite No 4,but these are exceptions

I found no picture...

P.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 12, 2016, 05:26:23 AM
Quote from: pjme on August 12, 2016, 05:20:53 AM
From : http://www.havergalbrian.org/percussion.htm


Other instruments
Brian's handling of the other untuned percussion instruments is fairly conventional, although once again the Gothic provides a prescribed in Part Two, as are a thunder machine (Brian did not want the tinny thunder sheet that so often occurs and is so ineffectual) and a 'bird scare' (i.e. a football rattle - called 'scare crow' on page 184 of the published score).   However, for the vast majority of his works, Brian employs a normal section in the usual manner.  Thunder and wind machines turn up in Symphony no 10, and an Indian tabla in English Suite No 4,but these are exceptions

I found no picture...

P.
Thanks for explaining the 'scarecrow'. Couldn't understand it before.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on August 12, 2016, 05:36:52 AM
A football rattle: fascinating!  (And P.'s note highlights the risks of using a non-standard percussion device  8) )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: pjme on August 12, 2016, 05:56:51 AM
The mystery continues..

Could it be this: see: http://www.littlegun.info/curios%20et%20antiquites/clockwork%20percussion%20bird%20scarer-03.JPG

or this ...http://www.oldgardentools.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/catablog/originals/Bird-Scarer--B.jpg


P.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 12, 2016, 02:26:47 PM
Long before soccer fans took football rattles into the stands with them, young boys were sent around the fields with a wooden rattle to scare away birds.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on August 25, 2016, 05:28:09 AM
Did we know Alex Walker is recording three more Brian symphonies for Naxos next month in Moscow?  His website says Nos. 8, 21 & 26.
http://www.alexanderwalker.org/
That will mean all 32 symphonies finally on CD by (presumably) some time next year.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 25, 2016, 05:35:15 AM
Quote from: Augustus on August 25, 2016, 05:28:09 AM
Did we know Alex Walker is recording three more Brian symphonies for Naxos next month in Moscow?  His website says Nos. 8, 21 & 26.
http://www.alexanderwalker.org/
That will mean all 32 symphonies finally on CD by (presumably) some time next year.

Well spotted! And yes, this means that next year, almost 45 years after HB died on 28 November 1972, all the symphonies finally have seen the light of LP and CD.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 25, 2016, 05:43:50 AM
The HB Faust Faust is near to 90% of the target amountt! Well,not far to go!! :o :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 25, 2016, 05:59:20 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 25, 2016, 05:43:50 AM
The HB Faust Faust is near to 90% of the targe amountt! Well,not far to go!! :o :o

That's good. My contribution to the Brian cause must take other forms. Still, great that people donate!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on August 25, 2016, 10:43:55 AM
At least I know now not to expect the Brian 8/21/26 disc for a good few months yet.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2016, 10:48:02 AM
Quote from: Augustus on August 25, 2016, 05:28:09 AM
Did we know Alex Walker is recording three more Brian symphonies for Naxos next month in Moscow?  His website says Nos. 8, 21 & 26.

I'd heard rumors...nice to know it's really happening  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on August 25, 2016, 10:55:51 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on August 25, 2016, 10:43:55 AM
At least I know now not to expect the Brian 8/21/26 disc for a good few months yet.

Until Sarge's post, I thought 8/21/26 was . . . a date, and that you were being very dry.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2016, 11:00:48 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on August 25, 2016, 10:55:51 AM
Until Sarge's post, I thought 8/21/26 was . . . a date, and that you were being very dry.

For Havergalians, that is how long the wait seems  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on August 25, 2016, 11:34:12 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2016, 11:00:48 AMFor Havergalians, that is how long the wait seems  ;D

Sarge
Brianites have even more endurance.  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 25, 2016, 11:40:22 AM
And humour is the only way, for Havergalians and Brianites alike, to endure their terrifying hardship.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 25, 2016, 11:20:41 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 25, 2016, 11:40:22 AM
And humour is the only way, for Havergalians and Brianites alike, to endure their terrifying hardship.
Havergalians AND Brianites?!! I hope this isn't some kind of break-a-way movement!
We'll have one faction wanting to record Faust and one wanting to record Turandot!
Who knows where this could lead?
We could end up like the SDP!!! >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2016, 01:28:45 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 25, 2016, 11:20:41 PM
Havergalians AND Brianites?!! I hope this isn't some kind of break-a-way movement!
We'll have one faction wanting to record Faust and one wanting to record Turandot!
Who knows where this could lead?
We could end up like the SDP!!! >:(

* shudders *
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on August 26, 2016, 01:46:26 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2016, 01:28:45 AM* shudders *

Yes. Great to learn the SDP still exists.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2016, 01:50:35 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 26, 2016, 01:46:26 AM
Yes. Great to learn the SDP still exists.

Ghosts are real.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2016, 02:06:11 AM
My point! They don't!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 26, 2016, 07:43:26 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on June 21, 2016, 10:14:05 AM
There's still a few days of June to go,Johan! ;D
Those were the days when I could actually spell your name correctly! :-[
I just noticed those exchanges on the Langgaard thread! My apologies for this. (Putting on my reading glasses might help a bit!)
You can call me cilgwynn,if you like?!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 26, 2016, 12:15:04 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 26, 2016, 07:43:26 AM
Those were the days when I could actually spell your name correctly! :-[
I just noticed those exchanges on the Langgaard thread! My apologies for this. (Putting on my reading glasses might help a bit!)
You can call me cilgwynn,if you like?!!

Ha! 'Johann' is the German variant. I forgive you.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 04, 2016, 11:27:56 PM
From the latest Newsletter of the HBS:

"As we go to press, news has reached us that there will be a studio performance of the symphony no. 6, the Sinfonia Tragica at 14:30 on Tuesday October 11th at the BBC's Maida Vale studios in London, to be given by Martyn Brabbins and the BBC Symphony Orchestra. The programme will also feature Edmund Rubbra's 11th symphony and an as yet unspecified concerto."

Another performance of the wonderful Tragica!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 05, 2016, 12:18:54 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 04, 2016, 11:27:56 PM
From the latest Newsletter of the HBS:

"As we go to press, news has reached us that there will be a studio performance of the symphony no. 6, the Sinfonia Tragica at 14:30 on Tuesday October 11th at the BBC's Maida Vale studios in London, to be given by Martyn Brabbins and the BBC Symphony Orchestra. The programme will also feature Edmund Rubbra's 11th symphony and an as yet unspecified concerto."

Another performance of the wonderful Tragica!
Indeed. My family at one time lived in Maida Vale and I'd often go to performances at the BBC Studio there. My uncle worked for the Performing Rights Society so he got us tickets.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2016, 12:24:31 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 05, 2016, 12:18:54 AM
Indeed. My family at one time lived in Maida Vale and I'd often go to performances at the BBC Studio there. My uncle worked for the Performing Rights Society so he got us tickets.

In 1988 I came over to hear Brian's Third performed there. So I know the place too!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 05, 2016, 12:32:53 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2016, 12:24:31 AM
In 1988 I came over to hear Brian's Third performed there. So I know the place too!
Will you come over for this one Johan? I'm sure that my old friend the Stena Hollandica could bring you across from The Hook! If I'm not away I might well try to go, especially to hear the Rubbra as well as the 'Tragica'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2016, 12:37:20 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 05, 2016, 12:32:53 AM
Will you come over for this one Johan? I'm sure that my old friend the Stena Hollandica could bring you across from The Hook! If I'm not away I might well try to go, especially to hear the Rubbra as well as the 'Tragica'.

I don't think I'll be able to, this time.

"The concert is likely to be a BBC Invitation Concert, with a ballot for free tickets that can be applied for through the BBC Ticket Unit, so please watch their website (www.bbc.co.uk/showsandtours/shows/) for details whenever they appear."
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 05, 2016, 12:39:23 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2016, 12:37:20 AM
I don't think I'll be able to, this time.

"The concert is likely to be a BBC Invitation Concert, with a ballot for free tickets that can be applied for through the BBC Ticket Unit, so please watch their website (www.bbc.co.uk/showsandtours/shows/) for details whenever they appear."

Yes, I've just been on the site but I think that I might be away then. Probably HBS nutters have already purchased all the tickets anyway.  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2016, 12:41:09 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 05, 2016, 12:39:23 AM
Yes, I've just been on the site but I think that I might be away then. Probably HBS nutters have already purchased all the tickets anyway.  8)

Cheeky!

:laugh:
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 05, 2016, 01:41:04 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2016, 12:41:09 AM
Cheeky!

:laugh:
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on September 05, 2016, 03:48:59 PM
What is the key to appreciating HB's lack of musical structure? 

It seems his early music followed strict structure and was less distinctive but more compelling to me.  The big turning point being the Gothic Symphony which still had cohesive sense of structure but his later works started to feel more like stream of consciousness.  Almost as if "this morning, I had this idea but discarded it because afternoon this other thing came into my mind".  Meanwhile I find the Gothic and No. 4 to be balanced symphony universes.  If you listened to 30 seconds of Gothic, you know what sound world that work belongs to.  But with No. 14, you can't tell where that work belongs to. 

The background to this question - I consider myself a hardcore Brian fan having owned recordings of his since the 1980's where thoughts of ever hearing the Gothic were a distant hope.  I've traveled around the world to hear the Gothic concert in Brisbane and own perhaps 20 CD's of his music.  I met Malcolm MacDonald (in Brisbane where I sat next to him during the rehearsals as we discussed Simpson and Brian, etc.).   

I recently received and eagerly listened to the new Dutton Brian recording of No. 2 and 14.  I can't imagine a better recording and interpretation of this music.   But I still find No. 2 to be a bore.  I listened to it three times.  Am I an idiot who doesn't recognize Brian's genius or is he really an extremely inventive but inconsistent composer who sometimes rises to brilliance but often fails on the execution of those ideas?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on September 07, 2016, 01:05:00 PM
I understand what you mean, although maybe with Brian, it's 'a journey', as they say. Like you, I've listened to HB for a long time and what I get from his symphonic cycle is a process of trying out different forms, almost to the exclusion of conventional development. So what I hear in no. 14 is a compressed, conjoined four-movement structure. Not a conventional melodist, HB drives in a different direction, so much so that I haven't really looked for form as such from him for quite a while! I didn't really like no. 2 until the new Dutton, and it's changed my view. It's not uniform, but it certainly gets better as it progresses, in my ears.

No, you're not an idiot in not seeing HB as a genius - because he's not, all the time. Not all composers (even the greatest) can be inspired all the time, and all composers have moments of genius and pedestrianism to varying degrees. Sometimes form isn't everything when inspiration has you by the throat (e.g. Tchaikovsky in his fourth symphony where he is almost audibly la-la-la-ing during the first movement development, so keen is he to get on with the drama), and that genius takes either a long time to arrive (e.g. Mahler, who in my eyes didn't find his true voice until quite late on - symphony 8 onwards - and whose inspiration up to around 1900 was, shall we say kindly, borrowed from various sources, some in homage (Brahms) and some because he didn't think that anyone would realise (Rott - don't believe me? Listen to the Adagietto from Mahler 5 and then the slow movement of Rott's string quartet)). Genius sometimes doesn't even enter into the equation, e.g. Beethoven in 'Rage over a lost penny'. As I always tell my daughter when she mocks 'Have-a-go' Brian, there is no such thing as empirically bad music, only music that you don't like. Form is of course important in music, but if music triggers something in you then it is doing what the composer intended, regardless of whether it is in a recognisable form or not. Genius is in the ear of the beholder (does that make sense?) and there are plenty of those moments in HB.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2016, 10:29:28 PM
My few cents - Brian has ideas galore, and the way he presents and treats them is often unconventional. His musical processes are unpredictable, but there certainly is method to his 'madness'. I have found that repeated hearings plus a healthy dose of Malcolm MacDonald do the trick. That's why I haven't had any persistent problem with any of his works ever since discovering him in 1977. As for his 'genius', I think he has it; but Brian isn't disciplined, neither is he analytical. He isn't the kind of artist who consciously progresses from one work to another, audibly learning along the way. Brian is impulsive,  spontaneous and eruptive. That's his strength and his weakness. That said, I love his music to bits.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on September 08, 2016, 06:50:55 AM
Thanks hbswebmaster and Johan.  Very helpful and articulate posts.  I am someone who cares about structure quite a bit so a good idea with poor structure frustrates me.  It does not need to be strict structure - Sibelius deviated frequently but those works always had a road map that was very tightly controlled and showed how an idea logically evolves to the next.  You can't take the ideas out of order because they fall apart.  You don't really get this with HB.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 08, 2016, 07:21:16 AM
I've not been on here for ages. I received a copy of the Dutton recording of symphonies 2 and 14 a couple of weeks ago and have submitted a review to Music Web. Once it's live I'll copy the link. A bit of a mixed bag I thought...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 08, 2016, 01:47:18 PM
Welcome back,John! I was wondering where you'd gone!! I look forward to your review. A very timely return to this thread in lieu of some recent posts.
And to lovers of Das Siegeslied. Just when you thought it was safe!! ??? ;D
Incidentally,just in case there is anyone who doesn't know about this already;I just had a look at Musicweb,and I see there is now a Havergal Brian index there,with links to all the reviews.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 08, 2016, 02:18:56 PM
I got sidetracked by a certain football team dominaring my life during an epic season. :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on September 08, 2016, 08:47:32 PM
A useful tabulation of musicweb reviews:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/comp-idx/misc-revidx/brian_sys_revidx.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/comp-idx/misc-revidx/brian_sys_revidx.htm)

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2016, 09:07:37 PM
Thanks,  John (Albion).

Thanks,  John (Whitmore) for the imminent review!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 25, 2016, 02:31:04 AM
I only wrote what I heard. Be nice......
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2016/Sep/Brian_sys_CDLX7330.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 25, 2016, 02:46:14 AM
We'll see...

  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 25, 2016, 02:51:55 AM
Excellent review, John. Fair and balanced. And humorous, too ( Richard III).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 25, 2016, 07:39:11 AM
Yes, it's a very good review which I very much agree with.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 25, 2016, 07:48:00 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 25, 2016, 02:31:04 AM
I only wrote what I heard. Be nice......

Quote"I end up accepting the music for what it is, warts and all. Maybe it's the warts that make it so characteristically Brian!"

Yes!...you finally get it!  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 25, 2016, 07:59:50 AM
I'll remember that the next time I get a wart! :( ;D I'll nurture it,instead of rubbing a snail or a piece of meat on it,and burying it in the ground!
I must admit I was expecting the worst. I thought the Second was one you didn't like,John?! Now it seems we've got a convert. You like No's 10,3 & now you like No 2! Just wait. You'll be raving about 'Das Siegeslied' when they release that! Seriously,I think you've got quite a talent as a critic there. I really do think that if I didn't already know the music,I'd want to buy the cd after reading your review.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 25, 2016, 08:14:04 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 25, 2016, 07:59:50 AM
I'll remember that the next time I get a wart! :( ;D

I like the giant wart that is the 14th  8)  I fear, though, that it will be quite some time before John loves it as we do.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 25, 2016, 09:55:44 AM
Much of HB's output is too wart ridden to listen to for my taste. The odd wart or two is fine but No.14 has 'em all over the place. 3 and 10 are not too disfigured (small moles and the odd pimple or two) but 14 is a shocker. Maybe it should be known as The Wart symphony?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 25, 2016, 10:02:39 AM
 :o ;D Sarge will be playing that now!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 25, 2016, 10:08:31 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 25, 2016, 10:02:39 AM
:o ;D Sarge will be playing that now!!

Yes, John's review had me eagerly listening to 14 (and 2) again. I suppose "The Wart" has little structural logic, but, oh my, does it make a glorious Havergalian noise  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 25, 2016, 11:32:55 AM
I'm trying to visualise a wart's structural logic right now,Sarge! ??? But I see your point! Up the wart,I say!! :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on September 25, 2016, 12:56:45 PM
I've found that this new recording of 14 has transformed the way I think of this symphony.  From the Downes recording I had the feeling that it was something like "six or seven disparate ways to start a symphony", but Brabbins has succeeded in placing it firmly in the category of "yet another satisfying Brian symphony, if rather different from the rest".
So, it might well still be HB's weakest construction, but it takes its place in the whole oeuvre as another symphony I love to listen to.  When it comes down to it, there's not one of the 32 I'd willingly give up.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 25, 2016, 12:59:27 PM
Quote from: Augustus on September 25, 2016, 12:56:45 PM
I've found that this new recording of 14 has transformed the way I think of this symphony.  From the Downes recording I had the feeling that it was something like "six or seven disparate ways to start a symphony", but Brabbins has succeeded in placing it firmly in the category of "yet another satisfying Brian symphony, if rather different from the rest".
So, it might well still be HB's weakest construction, but it takes its place in the whole oeuvre as another symphony I love to listen to.  When it comes down to it, there's not one of the 32 I'd willingly give up.

Yes.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 25, 2016, 02:41:22 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 25, 2016, 12:59:27 PM
Yes.

Seconded.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 25, 2016, 10:39:45 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 25, 2016, 12:59:27 PM
Yes.

Sarge

NO.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on October 12, 2016, 01:08:58 AM
Did anyone attend the Maida Vale studio recording of Symphony 6 yesterday and know when it might be broadcast?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 12, 2016, 10:51:09 AM
Quote from: Augustus on October 12, 2016, 01:08:58 AM
Did anyone attend the Maida Vale studio recording of Symphony 6 yesterday and know when it might be broadcast?

http://www.havergalbrian.org/news.php?id=14
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: nathanb on October 12, 2016, 06:25:33 PM
Why are there so many pages here and why do I care?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 12, 2016, 10:52:11 PM
The best page is 229, closely followed by 307 and 96.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 12, 2016, 11:38:52 PM
Just checked - yes, page 229 stands out.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 13, 2016, 12:08:14 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on April 13, 2012, 09:50:24 AM
Quite sharp for a Welsh type :D
Yes,page 229 stands out! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on October 13, 2016, 12:41:44 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 13, 2016, 12:08:14 AM
Yes,page 229 stands out! :)

Now I have to re-check 229! You people are evil!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 13, 2016, 01:12:48 AM
And 307......and 96! Oh,and don't forget Page 1,where it all began. (Harry never came back,though?!)
If you had the ink and the paper (and time) you could even print it all out and publish it in book form!!

Maybe I should get out more and support Leicester?!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on October 13, 2016, 02:19:26 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 13, 2016, 01:12:48 AM

Maybe I should get out more and support Leicester?!!

Oh, that was just a one off...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on October 13, 2016, 03:39:36 AM
It's great that there is enough of a community of (mainly) appreciators of Brian's music here to make this thread be as big as it is.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 17, 2016, 03:52:42 AM
Quote from: springrite on October 13, 2016, 02:19:26 AM
Oh, that was just a one off...
Come on Leicester. Settle down and start performing. Shaky at the back, midfield not creating enough. Vardy off the pace. It's as shoddy as Brian's 5th at the moment.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 17, 2016, 12:46:52 PM
 >:( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on October 17, 2016, 04:48:57 PM
This forum is full of Brian Nutters
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on October 17, 2016, 05:22:51 PM
Quote from: jessop on October 17, 2016, 04:48:57 PM
This forum is full of Brian Nutters

Not me!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on October 18, 2016, 06:08:28 AM
It takes one to know one!

Come on,Leicester!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2016, 09:19:09 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on October 13, 2016, 01:12:48 AM
And 307......and 96! Oh,and don't forget Page 1,where it all began. (Harry never came back,though?!)

Harry, the apostate.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on October 22, 2016, 05:21:41 AM
Having just enjoyed another listen to the 15th Symphony, what really strikes me about Brian is his writing for percussion, particularly tuned instruments like the xylophone and glockenspiel. I actually think of the xylophone as Brian's signature instrument. Not just the remarkable solo in the 3rd movt. of the "Gothic", but there's the 'pealing bells' at the end of the 9th Symphony, and plenty of other great passages for the instrument littered throughout his symphonies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 22, 2016, 07:12:28 AM
The trumpet sometimes doubles the xylophone. That sharp 'cackle' is very Brianic. I also love his tuba writing. His writing for the extremes of the orchestra - the lightest and the heaviest - is very characteristic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 22, 2016, 11:39:44 AM
In the very late symphonies (especially 32) the tuned percussion simply becomes part of the polyphonic texture.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on October 25, 2016, 06:18:12 AM
I've just ordered the RSNO/Brabbins 2nd & 14th Symphonies!  ;D

And I've been on a bit of a Brian kick recently. Listened to the Gothic yesterday, No. 19 today. There's lots of enjoyable music among the symphonies I've heard.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2016, 06:33:41 AM
No. 2 is great, opinion about 14 varies. Still, there is a lot to enjoy there. I have been listening to HB for almost 40 years now, and I'm still hooked.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 25, 2016, 06:34:50 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 25, 2016, 06:18:12 AM
I've just ordered the RSNO/Brabbins 2nd & 14th Symphonies!  ;D

And I've been on a bit of a Brian kick recently. Listened to the Gothic yesterday, No. 19 today. There's lots of enjoyable music among the symphonies I've heard.
I listened to the Brabbins version of Symphony 2 yesterday. It is marvellous in all respects. What I noticed was the connection with the Gothic Symphony in places. I was gripped throughout although my favourite moment remains that short section of 'the light breaking through' in the last movement which I mentioned in an earlier post. Symphony 2 now rates among my favourite Brian symphonies with Nos 8,10,6 and, of course, 'The Gothic'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2016, 06:36:42 AM
Your pinpointing of that moment has changed the way I view the trajectory of that movement, Jeffrey...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 25, 2016, 09:23:14 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2016, 06:36:42 AM
Your pinpointing of that moment has changed the way I view the trajectory of that movement, Jeffrey...
Interesting Johan - can you say more about this?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2016, 09:51:58 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 25, 2016, 09:23:14 AM
Interesting Johan - can you say more about this?

Well, I always considered that final movement as monolithic - a funeral march,  nothing more, nothing less. I considered the passages with more 'light' as purely structural, as creating a necessary contrast. There is more of a struggle now, where I for the past 30-odd years just enjoyed something grand and dark.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 25, 2016, 10:26:31 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2016, 09:51:58 AM
Well, I always considered that final movement as monolithic - a funeral march,  nothing more, nothing less. I considered the passages with more 'light' as purely structural, as creating a necessary contrast. There is more of a struggle now, where I for the past 30-odd years just enjoyed something grand and dark.
How very interesting - thanks for elaborating Johan. I will listen again bearing your comments in mind.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2016, 11:06:17 AM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on October 25, 2016, 10:44:41 AM
What can you Brianians recommend me?

I love his Symphony no 1, quite obviously.
I also really enjoyed his Symphonies 17-20, that's all I've heard of him.
What can you recommend?   :)

Hi, Josh. There is a lot to choose from at the moment. Excellent recordings are: 1) (Lyrita) symphonies 6 & 16; (Dutton) symphonies 10 & 30 plus English Suite 3 and the Concerto for Orchestra; vol. 2 of the (Toccata) Orchestral Works with suites and pieces from HB's operas; the latest ofering: (Dutton) symphonies 2 & 14; and the first recording of all: symphonies 10 & 21 (label escapes me, Heritage?)

But there is much more!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2016, 11:11:38 AM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on October 25, 2016, 10:44:41 AM
What can you Brianians recommend me?

Try the Eighth...a symphony almost all of us like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-a_WoPlfp8


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on October 25, 2016, 11:13:41 AM
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on October 25, 2016, 10:44:41 AM
What can you Brianians recommend me?

I love his Symphony no 1, quite obviously.
I also really enjoyed his Symphonies 17-20, that's all I've heard of him.
What can you recommend?   :)

My favourites aside from the Gothic are Nos. 3 and 9. Of the few non-symphonic works I've heard, I enjoy the overture For Valour and the Fantastic Variations on an Old Rhyme.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2016, 11:35:29 AM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2016, 11:11:38 AM
Try the Eighth...a symphony almost all of us like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-a_WoPlfp8


Sarge

The Eighth is THE Brian symphony, but I didn't mention it because it isn't available anymore. Or is it?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2016, 11:48:32 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2016, 11:35:29 AM
The Eighth is THE Brian symphony, but I didn't mention it because it isn't available anymore. Or is it?

Yes, seems to out of print, with used copies going for ridiculous sums (time to sell my second and third copies?  ;D ). But it is available on YouTube.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on October 25, 2016, 12:05:41 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 25, 2016, 11:48:32 AM
Yes, seems to out of print, with used copies going for ridiculous sums (time to sell my second and third copies?  ;D ). But it is available on YouTube.

Sarge

I managed to get the EMI 2CD set with 7, 8, 9 & 31 last year. And No. 8 has just been recorded as part of the new Naxos disc with Nos. 21 & 26, so we have that to look forward to next year, the completion of the commercially-recorded Brian symphony cycle.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 25, 2016, 12:55:30 PM
Except of course if the EMI set is out of the catalogue then 7 & 9 won't have a currently available recording.

:(

Albion's archive of radio recordings has most of the Brian symphonies from the BBC radio broadcasts (when they did the complete Brian cycle from the late 60s to the late 70s), but the quality of some leaves a lot to be desired (I think from memory 7 & 9 are OK).

https://www.mediafire.com/?yqrs5q7n92j17#39gklf97ua449
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 25, 2016, 01:06:04 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 25, 2016, 12:55:30 PM
Except of course if the EMI set is out of the catalogue then 7 & 9 won't have a currently available recording.

:(

Albion's archive of radio recordings has most of the Brian symphonies from the BBC radio broadcasts (when they did the complete Brian cycle from the late 60s to the late 70s), but the quality of some leaves a lot to be desired (I think from memory 7 & 9 are OK).

https://www.mediafire.com/?yqrs5q7n92j17#39gklf97ua449
There's a recording of 9 on Dutton which may still be available:
[asin]B003YUWGIM[/asin]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on October 25, 2016, 03:40:06 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2016, 11:35:29 AM
The Eighth is THE Brian symphony, but I didn't mention it because it isn't available anymore. Or is it?

The Groves 8 & 9 disc is currently available, but only as one disc in the Warner box set (32 discs?) of his EMI recordings of English music.  But a lot of money if you don't want the rest.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on October 26, 2016, 03:01:52 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on October 25, 2016, 11:06:17 AM
Hi, Josh. There is a lot to choose from at the moment. Excellent recordings are: 1) (Lyrita) symphonies 6 & 16; (Dutton) symphonies 10 & 30 plus English Suite 3 and the Concerto for Orchestra; vol. 2 of the (Toccata) Orchestral Works with suites and pieces from HB's operas; the latest ofering: (Dutton) symphonies 2 & 14; and the first recording of all: symphonies 10 & 21 (label escapes me, Heritage?)

But there is much more!
Yes, Heritage.
http://www.heritage-records.com/classical-orchestral-cd-album-titles/havergal-brian-the-first-commercial-recordings
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on October 27, 2016, 10:14:03 AM
Well, this is a magnificent recording of the 2nd & 14th Symphonies! I've only heard No. 14 once so I'll reserve judgment until I'm more familiar with it. But I already knew the 2nd is a great work, and now it has a worthy recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 27, 2016, 11:09:33 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 27, 2016, 10:14:03 AM
But I already knew the 2nd is a great work, and now it has a worthy recording.

Yes. And yes.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on November 07, 2016, 04:56:39 AM
Another craggily approachable composer gets a recording. I'll probably get banned for posting this here,but I think Daniel Jones is the sort of composer that a Brianite might enjoy.........and it also just goes to show that (as we all know here) that all good things come to those who impatiently wait! It's due for release on January 6th;but admirers of his music will hopefully be able to get a copy from Musicweb a bit earlier! Great cover photo. It reminds me of the old emi Lp of Brian's Symphonies 8 & 9. Not that they are similar;but they are both great photos,imho!

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/dinasman/81FvX3PUx7L._SL1499__zpswpp151v2.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 07, 2016, 05:12:18 AM
I like Daniel Jones's music. The three or four symphonies I listened to made a very favourable impression. Good to see another recording coming.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on November 07, 2016, 08:03:14 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on November 07, 2016, 04:56:39 AM
Another craggily approachable composer gets a recording. I'll probably get banned for posting this here,but I think Daniel Jones is the sort of composer that a Brianite might enjoy.........and it also just goes to show that (as we all know here) that all good things come to those who impatiently wait! It's due for release on January 6th;but admirers of his music will hopefully be able to get a copy from Musicweb a bit earlier! Great cover photo. It reminds me of the old emi Lp of Brian's Symphonies 8 & 9. Not that they are similar;but they are both great photos,imho!

(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r688/dinasman/81FvX3PUx7L._SL1499__zpswpp151v2.jpg)
I agree with you. I listened to Daniel Jones's fine Symphony 8 released on an earlier Lyrita release. Other composers whose music, I feel, might appeal to Brianites are Carlos Chavez, especially his Symphony 1 'Antigona' and Robin Orr's wonderful Symphony in One Movement. cilgwyn and I will share a cell in the GMG Sin Bin for going off piste.
8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 07, 2016, 08:06:53 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 07, 2016, 08:03:14 AM
I agree with you. I listened to Daniel Jones's fine Symphony 8 released on an earlier Lyrita release. Other composers whose music, I feel, might appeal to Brianites are Carlos Chavez, especially his Symphony 1 'Antigona' and Robin Orr's wonderful Symphony in One Movement. cilgwyn and I will share a cell in the GMG Sin Bin for going off piste.
8)

Cell? Not if I can help it. I know and love Orr's symphony, courtesy of John Whitmore, and I listened to Chavez' music many years ago - rugged and rhythmic, and a bit austere.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on November 12, 2016, 12:06:09 PM
I'll get into Brian when there's a full box set of his symphonies available. Keep me posted please!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 12, 2016, 12:17:55 PM
Quote from: jessop on November 12, 2016, 12:06:09 PM
I'll get into Brian when there's a full box set of his symphonies available. Keep me posted please!

Ergo: You'll never hear any Brian symphony... Currently there are multiple companies involved: Lyrita, EMI, Naxos, Toccata, Dutton, Heritage... I don't think they'll be banding together to give us your box!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 12, 2016, 12:22:48 PM
Quote from: jessop on November 12, 2016, 12:06:09 PM
I'll get into Brian when there's a full box set of his symphonies available. Keep me posted please!

Hah! You know that's not going to happen in our lifetimes (or at least mine). But you knew that already, didn't you  ;)  I think you should explore what is avaiable...not saying it will necessarily appeal, no, but you should at least give him a chance. There's nothing quite like him.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on November 12, 2016, 01:42:28 PM
Out of all the old quirky Brits there are from the first half of the 20th Century, I do prefer Brian to most. I'm not a Brian nutter like you lot, but I like what I've heard!

As for particularly essential recordings for the casual listener of Brian (not a Brian nutter), what are some CDs to look out for in particular? I'm interested in modern recordings rather than old ones (because of sound quality mainly but also a better interpretation)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 12, 2016, 02:11:24 PM
Quote from: jessop on November 12, 2016, 01:42:28 PM
As for particularly essential recordings for the casual listener of Brian (not a Brian nutter), what are some CDs to look out for in particular? I'm interested in modern recordings rather than old ones (because of sound quality mainly but also a better interpretation)

My choices (without the Gothic....I prefer Boult and Lenard but most would probably pick Brabbins):

5, 19, 27 (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/may2014/brian51927brabbins.jpg)

7, 8, 9, 31 (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/Brian78931.jpg)

2, 14 (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/june12/brian214brabbins.jpg)

10, 30 (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/hbrian1030brab.jpg)

17, 32 (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/berlin/Brian32.jpg)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on November 12, 2016, 03:42:22 PM
What years are they from?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 12, 2016, 03:54:19 PM
Quote from: jessop on November 12, 2016, 03:42:22 PM
What years are they from?

They are all "modern" recordings...nothing wrong with their sonics. The Duttons are recent (within the last few years). The EMI twofer is 1978 and 1988 and sounds splendid, with Mackerras and Groves providing well-led performances. The Naxos 17 and 32 is from 1992.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on November 12, 2016, 04:28:35 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 12, 2016, 03:54:19 PM
They are all "modern" recordings...nothing wrong with their sonics. The Duttons are recent (within the last few years). The EMI twofer is 1978 and 1988 and sounds splendid, with Mackerras and Groves providing well-led performances. The Naxos 17 and 32 is from 1992.

Sarge
I see why you put the word 'modern' in inverted commas  (:

I will try to hunt these down closer to Christmas
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 12, 2016, 04:33:19 PM
Quote from: jessop on November 12, 2016, 04:28:35 PM
I see why you put the word 'modern' in inverted commas  (:

At my age I label everything modern unless it's more than 70 years old  :D

Seriously, you don't listen to Boulez recordings from the 70s and 80s? You think they sound bad?  ???

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on November 12, 2016, 05:52:23 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 12, 2016, 04:33:19 PM
At my age I label everything modern unless it's more than 70 years old  :D

Seriously, you don't listen to Boulez recordings from the 70s and 80s? You think they sound bad?  ???

Sarge
I do listen to old Boulez recordings from the 50s to the 80s and they mostly do have excellent sound quality..........except for some of the really early ones

I think one thing that would should probably be taken more into consideration is that more recent recordings of old repertoire like Brian symphonies would be better than the early recordings of them. Musicians will be more familiar with them. There would have been more musicological research made that helps musicians to understand the work and can use as more basis for interpretation. There would be a greater variety of very good recordings available.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 12, 2016, 06:39:39 PM
Quote from: jessop on November 12, 2016, 05:52:23 PM
I think one thing that would should probably be taken more into consideration is that more recent recordings of old repertoire like Brian symphonies would be better than the early recordings of them. Musicians will be more familiar with them. There would have been more musicological research made that helps musicians to understand the work and can use as more basis for interpretation. There would be a greater variety of very good recordings available.
The modern recordings are very good, but I am always amazed how well the conductors and orchestras coped in the BBC recordings of the Brian symphonies from the 1950s to the the 70s. Considering not how difficult the music is and how unlike anyone else's they did a great job.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 13, 2016, 08:16:04 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 12, 2016, 06:39:39 PM
The modern recordings are very good, but I am always amazed how well the conductors and orchestras coped in the BBC recordings of the Brian symphonies from the 1950s to the the 70s. Considering not how difficult the music is and how unlike anyone else's they did a great job.
Mmm. I must disagree. Brian's music is sometimes awkwardly written but it's not especially demanding from a technical point of view. Professional musicians from the 1950s and earlier were more than capable of sight reading music that is basically tonal. In terms of coping they only thing they had to cope with was limited rehearsal time and conductors who may have been new to the music. Don't forget that even the LSSO had a decent crack at Brian and recorded it after just a few rehearsals - it wasn't in their standard repertoire and had to be fitted in as a one off project. Was Brian harder than Walton's Partita, Shostakovitch 10, Nielsen 5 ,Tippett 2, Ives Three Places - to name just a few works performed by the LSSO? Sorry but the answer is a resounding no. Just because Brian sounds a wee bit strange doesn't mean that it's hard to play.     
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Androcles on November 14, 2016, 11:38:49 AM
Doesn't this vary from piece to piece. I mean, the transcendental etude for xylophone in the Gothic sounds pretty hard.

I wonder whether, as with Second Viennese School, the problem is interpretive rather than with the technical difficulty of the music, at least in many of the pieces.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 14, 2016, 01:12:27 PM
Quote from: Androcles on November 14, 2016, 11:38:49 AM
Doesn't this vary from piece to piece. I mean, the transcendental etude for xylophone in the Gothic sounds pretty hard.

I wonder whether, as with Second Viennese School, the problem is interpretive rather than with the technical difficulty of the music, at least in many of the pieces.
There's nothing in Brian to worry a pro orchestra. I'll get feedback on the xylo solo. I know the bloke who played it with the LSO under Schmidt (he also timped on the LSSO Unicorn).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 18, 2016, 02:41:16 AM
Quote from: Androcles on November 14, 2016, 11:38:49 AM
Doesn't this vary from piece to piece. I mean, the transcendental etude for xylophone in the Gothic sounds pretty hard.

I wonder whether, as with Second Viennese School, the problem is interpretive rather than with the technical difficulty of the music, at least in many of the pieces.

I asked my friend the following question on Facebook:

Serious question for you. Some Havergal Brian followers are discussing the xylophone solo in the Gothic. Is it just a bog standard solo for a pro player,slightly tricky, difficult or what? Ta.

Here is his reply:

Having just about recovered from the shock of you saying something serious......   Yes, the xylophone solo in the Gothic Symphony is indeed extremely difficult. It doesn't go on for very long, but it's very nasty while it lasts. I assume you have a recording of the piece, and possibly also a score, but if you haven't, I can send you both if you like, the recording being the Ole Schmidt performance at the Albert Hall with the LSO, with yours truly playing the xylophone. Since I was principal percussion on that occasion I also had to organise the enormous percussion section. Nightmare. I couldn't possibly comment about the standard of the xylophone playing, but one of the members of the boys' choir was so overcome he fainted and crashed down into the percussion section.

So there you have it. Pretty definitive from the horse's mouth.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: timh1 on November 18, 2016, 04:46:05 AM
On Monday 21st November BBC Radio 3
Havergal Brian: Symphony No.6 'Sinfonia tragica'
BBC Symphony Orchestra
Martyn Brabbins (conductor).

new performance

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0833vgz (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0833vgz)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on November 21, 2016, 01:23:12 AM
Quote from: timh1 on November 18, 2016, 04:46:05 AM
On Monday 21st November BBC Radio 3
Havergal Brian: Symphony No.6 'Sinfonia tragica'
BBC Symphony Orchestra
Martyn Brabbins (conductor).

new performance

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0833vgz (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0833vgz)
Thanks for this link - one of his greatest symphonies I think.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 21, 2016, 01:34:10 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on November 21, 2016, 01:23:12 AM
Thanks for this link - one of his greatest symphonies I think.


Seconded.


Will listen.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on November 21, 2016, 07:15:21 AM
Am listening right now as I write (first time hearing the 6th Symphony), and within the first two minutes come two of Brian's finest hallmarks, his writing for low brass and tuned percussion. Also, it sounds like there's offstage brass involved as well.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on November 22, 2016, 04:21:41 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on November 18, 2016, 02:41:16 AM
I asked my friend the following question on Facebook:

Serious question for you. Some Havergal Brian followers are discussing the xylophone solo in the Gothic. Is it just a bog standard solo for a pro player,slightly tricky, difficult or what? Ta.

Here is his reply:

Having just about recovered from the shock of you saying something serious......   Yes, the xylophone solo in the Gothic Symphony is indeed extremely difficult. It doesn't go on for very long, but it's very nasty while it lasts. I assume you have a recording of the piece, and possibly also a score, but if you haven't, I can send you both if you like, the recording being the Ole Schmidt performance at the Albert Hall with the LSO, with yours truly playing the xylophone. Since I was principal percussion on that occasion I also had to organise the enormous percussion section. Nightmare. I couldn't possibly comment about the standard of the xylophone playing, but one of the members of the boys' choir was so overcome he fainted and crashed down into the percussion section.

So there you have it. Pretty definitive from the horse's mouth.

A bit overly dramatic, but did he say why it was so difficult?  I want to know what makes it so difficult.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 22, 2016, 05:41:55 PM
I've just been listening to Brabbins 6th online. Then of course I had to go and listen to Fredman and Walker's performances too.

Well Brabbins' performance was another great one to stand alongside the other two; I thought previously that Fredman's was more emotionally involved, Walker's more detached. Brabbins seems to line up with Fredman, though perhaps this is emphasised more by the close recording which makes the timpani, the bass instruments and the side drums more prominent than in the other recordings (though some parts of the orchestra are less prominent, for example Brabbins harp is nowhere near as prominent as Walker's magnificent sweeping and swirling harp (very appropriate in the symphony on an Irish legend)).

Anyway,, good to have another performance to listen to.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on November 23, 2016, 02:32:34 AM
Just a heads-up that there will be more Brian on Radio 3 this Sunday. They're doing a day-long sequence celebrating each of the BBC's orchestras and choirs, and Sunday morning's focus on the National Orchestra of Wales will (apparently) include a Havergal Brian work. What that work is, I don't yet know.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 23, 2016, 03:16:08 AM
Thanks, maestro, for the info.


The Brabbins Sixth - just listened to it, finally. I thought it was excellent. As always, he has a very clear view of what the music is about and how it has to move. Tempi were well-judged. The opening had more urgency than any of the other performances. And from that moment on, I knew we were in safe hands. So, all in all: a great addition to this symphony's recording history.


If there is one thing that I am less enthusiastic about, it's the venue and the terribly dry acoustic. This is the same place where Brian's Third was recorded for Hyperion, and I was there, in 1988, at a preparatory performance. Because the music cannot really breathe, I don't get any sense of landscape. The pictures conjured up are cool and clinical. This performance takes place in a laboratory. I don't like it.


Still - great performance, and well-moulded.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on November 24, 2016, 02:53:50 AM
Quote from: relm1 on November 22, 2016, 04:21:41 PM
A bit overly dramatic, but did he say why it was so difficult?  I want to know what makes it so difficult.
It's basically fast and furious and very awkwardly written. The real emphasis being on the awkward bit - true about so much of Brian's writing. His orchestration quite often doesn't take into account what is comfortably possible on some of the instruments. He's not the only culprit though - Rachmaninov Symphonic Dances, first movement: first fiddle parts are a nightmare in places (crossing strings at pace) but a piece of cake on the piano, for which the work was originally written. Another example - the low oboe note in Ma Vlast - a complete horror especially when it has to be played pp. The difference is that these examples are passing moments. Brian does it on a regular basis. That's not meant as a criticism, just statement of the way things are with him.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on November 24, 2016, 04:59:27 AM
I've been informed that the Brian scheduled for broadcast on Sunday is an excerpt from the Proms performance of the Gothic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Leggiero on November 25, 2016, 03:00:00 AM
There's a wonderful series of recording-heavy podcasts surveying Brian's works here (http://www.classicalpodcasts.com/ (http://www.classicalpodcasts.com/)). There was a further podcast of theirs devoted just to the Gothic Symphony a few years back.

[For anyone who may have happened across a near-identical post to this on another forum, yes, I'm shamelessly repeating myself in the hope of generating further discussion!]

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 25, 2016, 11:03:13 AM
I listened to the first podcast and while it was an excellent opportunity to hear HB pieces for those who hadn't heard any, I felt it was a bit of flop because it didn't offer an introduction or further information about the pieces. Although I think the music is self-evidently interesting and striking I felt a few remarks about who Brian was, what his musical influences were, something about his career &c might have added to the podcast.

Oh, and there was a mistake, the extracts are played chronologically but in the first podcast we get The Tinker's Wedding Overture. I think the podcaster thought it was composed for the premiere of the play in 1905, not later, in 1948, as is the case!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Leggiero on November 25, 2016, 11:45:19 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 25, 2016, 11:03:13 AM
I listened to the first podcast and while it was an excellent opportunity to hear HB pieces for those who hadn't heard any, I felt it was a bit of flop because it didn't offer an introduction or further information about the pieces. Although I think the music is self-evidently interesting and striking I felt a few remarks about who Brian was, what his musical influences were, something about his career &c might have added to the podcast.

Oh, and there was a mistake, the extracts are played chronologically but in the first podcast we get The Tinker's Wedding Overture. I think the podcaster thought it was composed for the premiere of the play in 1905, not later, in 1948, as is the case!

I think you're right about the overture, and yes, in an ideal world there'd be a bit more background, but the presenter says explicitly at the beginning that he won't be dwelling on biographical details that can be Googled easily enough...and, for me, the fact that these podcasts exist at all is a great thing!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian. Havergal Day in New Denmark
Post by: snyprrr on December 28, 2016, 07:57:20 AM
OK, today it's happening... NOW!!

1) Symphony No.31: I was going to go backwards from 32, but, am I right that there's no vid? So, 31 was my first (I've previously heard No.10 on YT) of the day. Well, I love the "Christmas" feel of the opening, but, by the end of its 14min. span, I had indeed been herded around quite a few mood changes, so quite abrupt! So, if I had wanted "pure" nostalgia, well then, Brian was going to subvert that in a very... "English Ives"?? way? meaning, he's no where near as wild as Ives, but still has that certain "let's mess with expectations", or "quirky", "don't give a poof",... but in a much more congenial way than Ives. Perhaps more like early, Synphony No.1 Ives? But English,... more "pastoral" sounding... "an English country play"??...

So, I enjoyed 31 about... 8-9/10... it was nice and short, gruff, bluff, windy, sunny strings, I'd say 1927- had it been written then it'd be called a Masterpiece?

2) Symphony No.28: I enjoyed this one just a wee bit more than 31. It's not all that much longer, one basic movement, divided. I did especially "see" the pastoral images of the slow mvmt. Malipiero+Ives...... very normal music made great by being obviously written by a human hand, and not "five bars until the modulation" theory.

3) Symphony No.29: Seems to continue right on from 28, but with just a slight more "drama", not so different, but just enough to make the two flow perfectly together. I'm on the slow mvmt. now, not as lush as 28, a little more reserved, but redolent of all the pastoral sounds I love to hear- and the phrases and metres are constantly changing, not four square.


His use of the bell like melody intoning sounds (and triangle) does give a very Christmas feel to the music. I like it! :) He's just enough "modern" for me, in just the right way, for "old fashioned normal music". I still think this could all have been done in the '20s, but, I NEED this music to be written when it was, to counter Xenakis, lol! Still, it does remind me a bit of Ives+Malipiero+cowpat (the pat wins out, lol).....

4) Symphony No.27: much longer... I listened through the first mvmt., even much more pastoral than the previous two, and a bit more anonymous, very much background pastoral, soothing to just let run...

5) Symphony 15:  can't find 32, or 30,... 15 is medium-long,... doesn't seem as hung together as 28-29,,, Sunday morning in the town square feeling... Brian seems always to have big fluffy clouds on a sunny day feel, fantasy-utopia-pastoral-with pompy brass heralds... again, cowpat-Ives... public television Brit?.... again I hear Malipiero...

I won't make it to end, must go...

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2016, 08:05:56 AM
Thanks for those impressions ! I think the whole idea of 'if it had been written in the 1920s' et cetera misses the point. Art history is multi-track. Brian wrote his best works between 1948 and 1968, in a style that is recognisably his, a mix of Romantic, Baroque and Modern. I like it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on December 29, 2016, 06:19:39 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2016, 08:05:56 AM
Thanks for those impressions ! I think the whole idea of 'if it had been written in the 1920s' et cetera misses the point. Art history is multi-track. Brian wrote his best works between 1948 and 1968, in a style that is recognisably his, a mix of Romantic, Baroque and Modern. I like it.

I like it!


Symphony No.15: from above, didn't finish, ... not sure how I felt about what I heard, maybe not my fav...

Symphony No.14: Well, OF COURSE!!, who wouldn't like THAT opening?? Very nice and moody, wintry. Here's one
                                      I'll have to come back to.

Symphony No.13: this one seemed a bit too obvious to me, too normal sounding, quite martial and pompy. This one
                                      I just didn't feel for at all. No.14 is the only one so far that had me from the get-go, in such an
                                      obviously neat-o, moody manner (I hope it keeps on going like that...)...


ok, which one is next?    6 or 17
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on December 29, 2016, 06:49:29 AM
I say 6! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on December 29, 2016, 07:02:58 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on December 29, 2016, 06:49:29 AM
I say 6! :)
and I agree. Let the Tragica in.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 29, 2016, 08:10:55 AM
Quote from: Christo on December 29, 2016, 07:02:58 AM
and I agree. Let the Tragica in.
+1
Title: Re: Havergal Brian. 6666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666
Post by: snyprrr on December 29, 2016, 09:48:39 AM
Symphony No.6 'Tragic' @19mins.


OK,... you got me, lol!!

Yea, very "fairy tale kingdom",... wish there was more of Brian in Myaskovsky!! (I have no idea how thaaat will be taken, oy!)..

OK, in about 10, definitely the most noteworthy of all that I tried (13-15, 27-29, 31). It still has some "christmas music" (always with the fairy tale hamlet with Brian, eh?), but it's right up my alley... anyhow, lots of "ballet" in Brian??...

Anyhow, sure, me likey... hearing a little BA Zimmermann/Hartmann???, angsty?

very spare, very elegiac, a little Schuman/Harris?.... (obviously around 12mins.)...



I like the movies Brian scores! ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian. 6666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2016, 09:54:59 AM
Quote from: snyprrr on December 29, 2016, 09:48:39 AM
I like the movies Brian scores! ;)


Well put!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: snyprrr on December 29, 2016, 09:58:08 AM
No.6- 15mins.

This is the "bombastic" section... I do like whenever Brian gets "festive"... I was going to say he has quite some restraint, before this section popped up, but here I'm reminded that his take on bombast is quite uniquely his own. Malipiero's 3-4, although having some in common here with the general sentiment, has the kind of bombast in the last movement that tends to render the preceding masterstrokes less-than; here, Brian intergrates EVERYTHING - Ives?- being very organic- but he also utilizes quirky "marching band bells and whistles" touches in his battle music,...

so much to like in No.6 ;)

AND JUST THE RIGHT LENGTH!! VERY IMPORTANT!!

A Symphony you can take home to meet the parents
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on December 29, 2016, 03:35:15 PM
Does anyone know if Packard's orchestration of Brian's The vision of Cleopatra will be recorded and released? 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2016, 03:46:48 PM
No news on that front, as far as I am aware...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on December 29, 2016, 04:43:23 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2016, 03:46:48 PM
No news on that front, as far as I am aware...

But surely that unique concert was recorded, no?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: SymphonicAddict on January 30, 2017, 04:22:59 PM
I was listening to all the symphonies two weeks ago (except Nr. 14 and 26). There is definitely great stuff there: 1, 4, 6, 7-9, 11 (lovely Adagio), 13, 16, 24 and 29. The other symphonies I found very similar. I think his use of percussion was a bit excessive and sometimes repetitive, which did not bring more sound variety to the compositions (IMHO). Overall it was satisfactory, he isn't the best British symphonist but it was interesting to discover almost all his symphonic work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on January 30, 2017, 04:54:04 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on January 30, 2017, 04:22:59 PM
I was listening to all the symphonies two weeks ago (except Nr. 14 and 26). There is definitely great stuff there: 1, 4, 6, 7-9, 11 (lovely Adagio), 13, 16, 24 and 29. The other symphonies I found very similar. I think his use of percussion was a bit excessive and sometimes repetitive, which did not bring more sound variety to the compositions (IMHO). Overall it was satisfactory, he isn't the best British symphonist but it was interesting to discover almost all his symphonic work.

I have the same problems with Brian as I do with Bax. It's music that I think will entice me, but it just never grabs me emotionally. However, I have had better luck with Bax than Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: André on January 30, 2017, 05:49:53 PM
Brian is like Langgaard (for me, that is ;)): a most interesting interlocutor who talks a lot but keeps changing subjects just when you're about to answer his latest thought-provoking (sometimes downright provocative) idea. It's hard to keep track of the ideas, the discourse, the underlying emotions. As if the composer is already somewhere else, way ahead of you, quite uninterested in keeping up with his co-interlocutor. A most interesting, even enjoyable journey, but a challenging one.

I have but 4 of his symphonies I think (too lazy to get up and check). That still makes 27/31 of his output. The interest is definitively there. The understanding is one bus late  :(.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on January 31, 2017, 05:34:59 AM
A good analysis of the problem,imo! It's those sudden changes in direction! But that's what makes them both so interesting. Both composers can be a bit too garrulous at times,but,unlike the proverbial pub bore,they're almost always interesting to listen to!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 31, 2017, 06:50:10 AM
As people will know by now, I have no difficulty at all with Brian's sudden changes of direction, and I think all the symphonies are dissimilar. I do admit there is more of a stylistic sameness after Symphony No. 21. Considering that Brian was in his eighties then and composing them one after another, I'm not surprised. Listening to symphonies 27 and 28, though, I can hear that Brian could still bring a lot of variety to his late style...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on February 11, 2017, 12:15:58 PM
According to the programme for the 2017 English Music Festival, there will be three Brian part songs performed there this year, "It was a Lover and his Lass", "The Dream" and "Sweet Solitude".  Dorchester Abbey, Sat 27 May.  Godwine Choir under Hilary Davan Whetton, the conductor who gave two Brian part songs at last year's festival.  Perhaps he's becoming a Brian fan! Four next year?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2017, 04:40:31 AM
Thanks, Augustus! Perhaps he'll make the jump to six next year...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 06, 2017, 03:15:17 AM
The Havergal Brian Society will publish its 250th Newsletter late next month, or early in May. I want to contribute a few thoughts about Brian and his music, so I'm busy reading through what I've written here since 2007. It's a joy revisiting this thread! Inbetween the off-topic banter, there have been lots of great discussions and insights. One could almost wax nostalgic...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 06, 2017, 08:43:39 PM
And news is that the Naxos CD to contain Symphonies Nos. 8, 26 and ? (can't remember) will be released in October.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 06, 2017, 09:59:45 PM
No. 21!


I just submitted a piece called 'Brian Now' to the Newsletter...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on March 07, 2017, 02:00:26 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 06, 2017, 08:43:39 PM
And news is that the Naxos CD to contain Symphonies Nos. 8, 26 and ? (can't remember) will be released in October.

Hmm. Bit longer wait than I was expecting, but at least we have a date. Plenty of time for me to pick up some more of the already-released discs.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 07, 2017, 04:38:20 AM
Add that to the forthcoming releases of another Holbrooke cd from Cpo,and Sacheverell Coke Piano Concertos from Hyperion,and I should have plenty of time to save for the new cd!! ::) :)
By the way,the Faust fund appears to have stopped at just over 90% of it's target. So near,so far?!! :( :( :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 07, 2017, 05:14:33 AM
It's just a matter of time. I think the goal will be reached eventually.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on March 17, 2017, 11:16:56 AM
Ordered two more Brian discs today. Symphonies 10 & 30, Concerto for Orchestra and English Suite No. 3 (RSNO/Brabbins), and Symphonies Nos. 6, 28, 29 & 31 (Russian State SO/Walker). It's mainly a case of plugging in small gaps now. Nos. 6 & 10 are the only ones missing of the first 12 in my collection.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 17, 2017, 11:19:38 AM
Then you're in for a treat - 6 and 10 are among the best.


P.S. Those discs you ordered are excellent!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on March 18, 2017, 11:00:15 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on March 17, 2017, 11:19:38 AM
Then you're in for a treat - 6 and 10 are among the best.


P.S. Those discs you ordered are excellent!

I've heard both before, No. 6 in the Radio 3 performance last year, and parts of No. 10 in the Unknown Warrior documentary on Youtube.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 18, 2017, 11:02:58 AM
Please report back when you have listened to the two discs!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 18, 2017, 12:11:41 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 18, 2017, 11:00:15 AM
I've heard both before, No. 6 in the Radio 3 performance last year, and parts of No. 10 in the Unknown Warrior documentary on Youtube.

Unknown Warrior documentary? Link?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 18, 2017, 12:16:36 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 18, 2017, 12:11:41 PMUnknown Warrior documentary? Link?

Great to see the grand old man himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7_wiFeDIU
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 18, 2017, 12:19:08 PM
Quote from: Christo on March 18, 2017, 12:16:36 PM
Great to see the grand old man himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7_wiFeDIU

Cool. Thanks, Johan. 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on March 22, 2017, 03:50:15 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 17, 2017, 11:16:56 AM
Ordered two more Brian discs today. Symphonies 10 & 30, Concerto for Orchestra and English Suite No. 3 (RSNO/Brabbins), and Symphonies Nos. 6, 28, 29 & 31 (Russian State SO/Walker). It's mainly a case of plugging in small gaps now. Nos. 6 & 10 are the only ones missing of the first 12 in my collection.

Both these discs have now arrived. Currently listening to No. 10 as I write. The "calm before the storm" section (c. 4-5 mins in) sent shivers down my spine in only the way that the pre-storm moments in Strauss' Alpensinfonie have done before. I also didn't expect the offstage trumpet. That's a nice touch.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 22, 2017, 03:54:05 AM
I happen to have listened to no. 10, too, again after a long time. And yes, that utterly still passage remains very striking, and very poetic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 22, 2017, 05:50:36 AM
No 10 is one of the greatest - after much turbulence it arrives at 'a sense of hard-won yet lasting triumph' as I think Harold Truscott (also an interesting composer) wrote in that fine old Penguin Guide to the Symphony Vol. 2.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 22, 2017, 06:09:03 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 22, 2017, 05:50:36 AM
No 10 is one of the greatest - after much turbulence it arrives at 'a sense of hard-won yet lasting triumph' as I think Harold Truscott (also an interesting composer) wrote in that fine old Penguin Guide to the Symphony Vol. 2.

It remain my favourite, as many of you recall that it was the work that connected to my experience working to help air crash victims and families. It has special meaning to me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on March 22, 2017, 01:52:19 PM
Another little element to Havergal Brian's music I enjoy is his tendency to let cymbal crashes ring out at the end of movements, even after the other instruments stop playing. This is most notable in the 7th Symphony, where each movement ends with a resonating cymbal, bell or tam-tam strike. The Symphony No. 30 ends with this effect too, with the cymbals and tam-tam left sounding after the bare-fifth B flat chord ends.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 22, 2017, 02:21:46 PM
Well-listened. The 7th is indeed remarkable in that respect, with every movement ending that way. The 8th and 12th also end with a gong-stroke, soft in the former, loud in the latter.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on March 22, 2017, 02:37:42 PM
The key in which the Seventh ends was also quite unexpected on first listen, from this listener's point of view. Brian's a fantastic, colourful writer for percussion.

And while I'm here, this week's purchases takes my Brian symphony total up to 24/32. I just need Nos. 13, 16, 18, 21-24 and 26 to complete the set now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 22, 2017, 02:47:10 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 22, 2017, 02:37:42 PM
The key in which the Seventh ends was also quite unexpected on first listen, from this listener's point of view. Brian's a fantastic, colourful writer for percussion.


Yes, that final chord is magical. Brian is endlessly inventive. It remains a mystery he still hasn't really broken through, hearing his music live is such an invigorating experience. In 1987 I was in Liverpool, at the Philharmonic Hall, to hear the Seventh 'in the flesh'. I can still remember it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 22, 2017, 02:48:17 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 22, 2017, 02:37:42 PM
And while I'm here, this week's purchases takes my Brian symphony total up to 24/32. I just need Nos. 13, 16, 18, 21-24 and 26 to complete the set now.


Very good!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on March 22, 2017, 04:09:09 PM
Sorry if I'm late to the party but did Faust ever get fully funded?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 22, 2017, 05:05:52 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 22, 2017, 04:09:09 PM
Sorry if I'm late to the party but did Faust ever get fully funded?

The funding got to a rousing start but has stalled just a few pennies short. (Well, a bit more than a few pennies, I guess)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 20, 2017, 03:47:25 PM
I have been over in the Darius Milhaud thread enthusing about my latest find *. However that thread has convinced itself that DM is an over-prolific composer of low interest and low inspiration and so it isn't worth posting anything else there.

However I did want to make an observation about DM and Brian. These two are composers who are not, at first acquaintance, very similar. DM is much more neo-classical than Brian, and his harmonic language tends to bi- or poly-tonality or 'non-triadic diatonic' (ie using the notes of a major or minor scale with few chromaticisms but without privileging the common chords); in fact he specifically eschews chromaticism (in his autobiography he states that he is writing music that is in the mode of 'Mediterranean lyricism' (he was from Provence), and opposes this to Wagner and Germanic chromaticism generally).

One similarity is that both composers are cunning as to form, with both Brian and DM you get passages that sound like recapitulation when the material quite different, or the form is truncated to arrive at abrupt but satisfying endings. And with both the music is an endlessly varied stream of inspired contrapuntal utterance.

Listening to a few of DM's later works I feel a quite a similarity with Brian in mood too. In the 1960s, after DM had finished his official count of symphonies (12) he wrote a few more works that are symphonic in the 'Music for' series (if he was invited to conduct at a festival he would write a work for that place), especially 'Music for Indiana' and 'Music for New Orleans'**. This latter work particularly sounds very Brianesque to me, with the finale a dogged journey through music chaos and quite astonishing contrapuntal heterophony to end in sombre exhilaration.

Well worth a listen. Naturally the 'Music for' works are mainly not recorded, but several of these works are available on the third page of the French music downloads at the Art Music Forum.


*Trust me to light on another composer who is shamefully underrecorded, or rather, his most famous works are recorded multiple times, but other of his works (ones that I think are more valuable) are not recorded, or not available.
** When I saw the title I thought 'Music for New Orleans' was going to be full-on jazz, as DM was very taken with jazz on a trip to the US in 1920 and introduced it to France on his return. But for some reason it isn't.



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 20, 2017, 03:56:50 PM
Very interesting observations. I don't think I have ever listened to Milhaud, so I'll have to see and hear for myself...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 21, 2017, 04:52:44 AM
I had the old Louisville recording of Milhaud's Sixth Symphony on a Lp years ago. I must admit I didn't actually set out to buy it. The firm went bust. One of those mail order companies that used to advertise in Gramophone. They offered me a choice. My money back,or I could buy have some Lp's to the same value. For some reason I chose the latter. One of the Lps was the Milhaud. The Sixth strikes me as one of his most interesting works. Like Myaskovsky,the sheer number of symphonies (and other music) puts me off further investigation. Luckily Youtube has some of the symphonies,or ever all of them?! Again,the problem is the possibility og getting side tracked......and using Audacity and ripping and burning drives me bonkers!! There really needs to be a resurgence of Ye olde audio cassette,like there was for vinyl (all though,low brow folk like me called them Lp's or records!). Also,unlike Lp's,you can record on them. Just bung it in,press play and record and bobs your uncle! No messing around with b***** file format converting,and the aforementioned ripping and burning! And my Dolby cassette deck produces magnificent sounding recordings,I might add (I just have!). Are they objects of beauty.like vinyl records? Do they have an aroma? Are they sexy?!! According,to an article at the Guardian,they are!!!Well,I personally think my colllection of musicassettes are rather cute! Sexy,though?!  ::) ::) ::) ;D
Anyway,I'm getting sidetracked here. Milhaud sounding Brianesque? Interesting! I'm just afraid that if I like Milhaud's Sixth that much,and agree with you,there will be more hours of burning and ripping,for my own personal use I should point out!! The Cpo set is an arm and a leg to me at the moment!!

As to being alone in liking Milhaud. I recently found someone at the GMG who likes Draeseke,too. Holbrooke? Erm,Gareth Vaughan. One other member at the AMF,possibly? Posts get few answers,if any. Actually,vandermolen did post a reply once................about Myaskovsky,I think?!! ;D Posts about Gilbert and Sullivan at the Gilbert and Sullivan Sanctuary (more like hermitage) have yet to receive any answers at all!! :( :( :( As the Seargent Major used to say in it 'It aint half hot mum'. Oh dear,how sad,never mind!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 21, 2017, 05:01:29 AM
Here it is! It's not a spoof,is it?!!

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/apr/21/aidan-moffat-record-store-day-vinyl (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/apr/21/aidan-moffat-record-store-day-vinyl)

Do you remember "undressing" your Brian Lp's Johan?!! Does any other devout Brianite here,for that matter?!! ::) ;D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 21, 2017, 07:42:30 AM
Talking of lp's.I did love the old Lyrita Lp sleeve design. I used to prop it up in front of me while I was listening to it. Somehow,the artwork seemed to 'go' with the music;in the way that it builds up in those blocks of sound and abrupt juxtaposition of ideas and mood that are so typical of his style. The fragmented shapes and colours of the sleeve so cleverly reflecting the soundworld in visual terms (the Sixteenth Symphony even more so,in some ways,possibly?). I love it when they reissue old,much loved recordings with the original artwork. I suppose I sound like an ingrate,but I was disappointed that Lyrita didn't use this in the reissue. I think it is a splendid design. I just like the simplicity of it. I find it quite striking,actually. Of course,the addition of the Cooke symphony altered the musical content,somwhat. Cooke,imo,not being a composer I would ever play immediately after listening to Brian (Daniel Jones,perhaps?). Of course,if you haven't already got in your collection,you can always buy the Lp secondhand and prop it up while listening to the cd;but it's not the same as having the design on the jewel case (booklet,actually) of a nice,shiny Lyrita cd.

(http://i.imgur.com/ezLFmML.jpg)

As to "undressing it"? Personally,I just took the Lp out and put it on the turntable. It's just a piece of plastic with a hole in the middle for goodness sake!! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 21, 2017, 08:56:24 AM
Undressing Brian?! God forbid! I do like the artwork of 16, too, btw.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 21, 2017, 09:32:47 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 21, 2017, 04:52:44 AM
I had the old Louisville recording of Milhaud's Sixth Symphony on a Lp years ago. I must admit I didn't actually set out to buy it. The firm went bust. One of those mail order companies that used to advertise in Gramophone. They offered me a choice. My money back,or I could buy have some Lp's to the same value. For some reason I chose the latter. One of the Lps was the Milhaud. The Sixth strikes me as one of his most interesting works. Like Myaskovsky,the sheer number of symphonies (and other music) puts me off further investigation. Luckily Youtube has some of the symphonies,or ever all of them?! Again,the problem is the possibility og getting side tracked......and using Audacity and ripping and burning drives me bonkers!! There really needs to be a resurgence of Ye olde audio cassette,like there was for vinyl (all though,low brow folk like me called them Lp's or records!). Also,unlike Lp's,you can record on them. Just bung it in,press play and record and bobs your uncle! No messing around with b***** file format converting,and the aforementioned ripping and burning! And my Dolby cassette deck produces magnificent sounding recordings,I might add (I just have!). Are they objects of beauty.like vinyl records? Do they have an aroma? Are they sexy?!! According,to an article at the Guardian,they are!!!Well,I personally think my colllection of musicassettes are rather cute! Sexy,though?!  ::) ::) ::) ;D
Anyway,I'm getting sidetracked here. Milhaud sounding Brianesque? Interesting! I'm just afraid that if I like Milhaud's Sixth that much,and agree with you,there will be more hours of burning and ripping,for my own personal use I should point out!! The Cpo set is an arm and a leg to me at the moment!!

As to being alone in liking Milhaud. I recently found someone at the GMG who likes Draeseke,too. Holbrooke? Erm,Gareth Vaughan. One other member at the AMF,possibly? Posts get few answers,if any. Actually,vandermolen did post a reply once................about Myaskovsky,I think?!! ;D Posts about Gilbert and Sullivan at the Gilbert and Sullivan Sanctuary (more like hermitage) have yet to receive any answers at all!! :( :( :( As the Seargent Major used to say in it 'It aint half hot mum'. Oh dear,how sad,never mind!! ;D
Yes, I only ever reply about Miaskovsky regardless of the thread.  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 21, 2017, 09:38:03 AM
Actually I have a great new Brian recording - Symphony 3 conducted by Stanley Pope on the Klassic Haus Restorations label. From the bootleg first recording/performance in 1974. It is more urgent and powerful IMHO than the version on Hyperion - good as that is. The pianos are more prominent (Ronald Stevenson and David Wilde) and our very own GMG Forum member John Whitmore gets a credit for suggesting the release! Great stuff - this CD has given me much pleasure - now, back to Miaskovsky.  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 21, 2017, 09:39:52 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 21, 2017, 07:42:30 AM
Talking of lp's.I did love the old Lyrita Lp sleeve design. I used to prop it up in front of me while I was listening to it. Somehow,the artwork seemed to 'go' with the music;in the way that it builds up in those blocks of sound and abrupt juxtaposition of ideas and mood that are so typical of his style. The fragmented shapes and colours of the sleeve so cleverly reflecting the soundworld in visual terms (the Sixteenth Symphony even more so,in some ways,possibly?). I love it when they reissue old,much loved recordings with the original artwork. I suppose I sound like an ingrate,but I was disappointed that Lyrita didn't use this in the reissue. I think it is a splendid design. I just like the simplicity of it. I find it quite striking,actually. Of course,the addition of the Cooke symphony altered the musical content,somwhat. Cooke,imo,not being a composer I would ever play immediately after listening to Brian (Daniel Jones,perhaps?). Of course,if you haven't already got in your collection,you can always buy the Lp secondhand and prop it up while listening to the cd;but it's not the same as having the design on the jewel case (booklet,actually) of a nice,shiny Lyrita cd.

(http://i.imgur.com/ezLFmML.jpg)

As to "undressing it"? Personally,I just took the Lp out and put it on the turntable. It's just a piece of plastic with a hole in the middle for goodness sake!! ::) ;D
Keith Hensby did those designs. When I last enquired a few years ago he was alive and well and still working as a graphic artist. The Bax symphony LP covers were a bit monotonous though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 21, 2017, 09:41:03 AM
I also prefer the Pope 3rd. More mystery, more magic. Did you read the liner notes by yours truly, Jeffrey?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 21, 2017, 09:43:34 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 21, 2017, 09:41:03 AM
I also prefer the Pope 3rd. More mystery, more magic. Did you read the liner notes by yours truly, Jeffrey?
OMG!!!  ::) ::) ::)
How did I miss that?
Yes, of course I read them and found them, as expected, excellent in all respects. This adds even more to the attraction of this CD Johan.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 21, 2017, 10:18:19 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 21, 2017, 09:43:34 AM
OMG!!!  ::) ::) ::)
How did I miss that?
Yes, of course I read them and found them, as expected, excellent in all respects. This adds even more to the attraction of this CD Johan.  :)


Phew!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 21, 2017, 10:45:04 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 21, 2017, 10:18:19 AM

Phew!
I like the description of the Symphony as 'heroic and iridescent'. Yes, very informative and insightful notes. You say a lot in a comparatively shorts space. CDs produced by these kind of small private labels often contain no notes at all, so your ones are a real bonus.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 21, 2017, 12:26:28 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 21, 2017, 10:45:04 AM
I like the description of the Symphony as 'heroic and iridescent'. Yes, very informative and insightful notes. You say a lot in a comparatively shorts space. CDs produced by these kind of small private labels often contain no notes at all, so your ones are a real bonus.


Thanks, Jeffrey. I liked the challenge of saying something about this symphony in a way that wasn't too influenced by Malcolm MacDonald. Which is almost impossible...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 21, 2017, 12:36:49 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 21, 2017, 12:26:28 PM

Thanks, Jeffrey. I liked the challenge of saying something about this symphony in a way that wasn't too influenced by Malcolm MacDonald. Which is almost impossible...
Well, you managed that very successfully Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 21, 2017, 01:32:13 PM
For those interested... I own the copyright.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 03, 2017, 02:18:27 AM
Exciting news about a new Havergal Brian recording on the "Future Dutton releases" thread at the Art Music Forum. Is this really true? Johan: Did you know about this?!! ??? :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 03, 2017, 03:09:23 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 03, 2017, 02:18:27 AM
Exciting news about a new Havergal Brian recording on the "Future Dutton releases" thread at the Art Music Forum. Is this really true? Johan: Did you know about this?!! ??? :o


Only since yesterday evening, cilgwyn, when I received the festive 250th issue of the HBS Newsletter, to which I also contributed a short piece. But not just the news of a new Dutton recording in the offing (with the newly-orchestrated Vision of Cleopatra and other early pieces, both choral and orchestral) is an exciting prospect, also the next Naxos recording: symphonies 7 and 9!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 03, 2017, 03:37:48 AM
Two more Brian cds.....and,the one that's being released in the Autumn (I believe?)!! ??? :) Is this with Alexander Walker and the same Russian orchestra? I presume,or I might add,hope so;because he does seem to have a 'feel' for Brian's music. All his recordings,to date,have lived up to expectations. I haven't been disappointed yet! As to the Dutton cd. I like the program. I can understand Dundonnel's points (if you have seen his post at the AMF) but I think a really good performance of For Valour could change perceptions of this piece. As to Psalm 23. I must admit to not being too familiar with the piece. I will rectify this later by putting on the LSSO recording on the Heritage cd.  And come to think of it,I really could do with another listen to that 2 cd set. I like the idea of a cd programing some of these early orchestral pieces with choral works,though,and I like the program.
I am very excited about a new recording of the Seventh. A Russian orchestra could make this a particularly interesting experience. I wonder if there any ways in which a new recording could improve on the Mackerras. The Mackerras is very good,but I know that my first port of call for the Seventh is always the Pope (recording,not the one in the Vatican! ;D).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 03, 2017, 03:43:07 AM
I should take a look at Dundonnell's posts at AMF... If I read correctly, Psalm 23 is not on that new Dutton CD, but the two Herrick Songs, recorded by the Hill Youth Orchestra a long time ago... Yes, we still have to get the CD with symphonies 8, 21 and 26. As for the Seventh, it was conducted by Harry Newstone, and I also prefer it to the Mackerras...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 03, 2017, 04:08:57 AM
Yes,of course Newstone,not Pope! :-[ I usually check these things before posting,but I was preoccupied with getting some lunch!! ::)  (It also spoilt my Pope joke! ;D) To quote,Dundonnell, "Personally I would have liked a new recording of Psalm 23 and, perhaps, "In Memoriam";but he's obviously as pleased as you and I that these recordings are being made. So far,this is turning out to be another bumper year for Brian recordings! All you need now is that last 'bumper' donation to the Faust fund!!

Meanwhile,to recap,for anyone here who doesn't know. These works by Brian are being recorded by Dutton in July,by the Chorus & orchestra of the ENO under Martyn Brabbins: 

Overture "For Valour" (1902/06)
Fantastic Variations on an Old Rhyme (1907)
Cantata "The Vision of Cleopatra" for soprano, mezzo-soprano, contralto, tenor, chorus and orchestra(1908) (realised by John Pickard)
Two Choral Pieces for female voices and orchestra (formerly known as Two Herrick Songs) (1912)


And Naxos will be recording Symphonies 7 & 9!!!! ??? :o :o :o  Have you any idea when this will be happening,Johan?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 03, 2017, 04:27:52 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 03, 2017, 04:08:57 AM

And Naxos will be recording Symphonies 7 & 9!!!! ??? :o :o :o  Have you any idea when this will be happening,Johan?


It only says: 'which are planned to be recorded'..
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 03, 2017, 04:32:54 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 21, 2017, 09:38:03 AM
Actually I have a great new Brian recording - Symphony 3 conducted by Stanley Pope on the Klassic Haus Restorations label. From the bootleg first recording/performance in 1974. It is more urgent and powerful IMHO than the version on Hyperion - good as that is. The pianos are more prominent (Ronald Stevenson and David Wilde) and our very own GMG Forum member John Whitmore gets a credit for suggesting the release! Great stuff - this CD has given me much pleasure - now, back to Miaskovsky.  8)
Klassic Haus has issued quite a few Brian Recordings and I have been involved in all of them one way or another. Worth buying but really as secondary versions. Go to the link and choose collaborations tab. The Holmes fiddle concerto is rather good. http://klassichaus.us/Home.php
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 03, 2017, 04:37:25 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 03, 2017, 03:37:48 AM
Two more Brian cds.....and,the one that's being released in the Autumn (I believe?)!! ??? :) Is this with Alexander Walker and the same Russian orchestra? I presume,or I might add,hope so;because he does seem to have a 'feel' for Brian's music. All his recordings,to date,have lived up to expectations. I haven't been disappointed yet! As to the Dutton cd. I like the program. I can understand Dundonnel's points (if you have seen his post at the AMF) but I think a really good performance of For Valour could change perceptions of this piece. As to Psalm 23. I must admit to not being too familiar with the piece. I will rectify this later by putting on the LSSO recording on the Heritage cd.  And come to think of it,I really could do with another listen to that 2 cd set. I like the idea of a cd programing some of these early orchestral pieces with choral works,though,and I like the program.
I am very excited about a new recording of the Seventh. A Russian orchestra could make this a particularly interesting experience. I wonder if there any ways in which a new recording could improve on the Mackerras. The Mackerras is very good,but I know that my first port of call for the Seventh is always the Pope (recording,not the one in the Vatican! ;D).
Beware. This was done with virtually no rehearsal and it's not in the same class as the LSSO 10th. Nice piece but not very original.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 03, 2017, 04:38:51 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on April 21, 2017, 01:32:13 PM
For those interested... I own the copyright.
I personally thought the liner notes were rubbish  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 03, 2017, 04:51:49 AM
I'm continuing to do some work with Klassic Haus, Heritage and Nimbus (Cameo Classics). Cameo is a strange label with a few hidden gems, including a restoration I made of the Brian piano music http://www.wyastone.co.uk/havergal-brian-the-complete-music-for-piano.html   Quick question. One CD that we have so far not released is the Hull/Brian set. Cards on table. The playing is not very good (I am trying to be polite) and the general view is that it really shouldn't be released. The LSSO/Heritage has historic significance and some remarkable playing. Can the Hull set have any such claims? Thoughts please. Going off topic here's a fine set of the Brandenburgs (Harry Newstone) I've transferred on behalf of Heritage in conjunction with Klassic Haus http://www.mdt.co.uk/bach-brandenburg-concertos-1-6-harry-newstone-heritage-2cds.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 03, 2017, 06:32:33 AM
I think the problem with the Hull Youth recordings are that,while they have some nostalgia value to Brianites,of a certain age,who bought them when there were no alternatives;for anyone coming new to Brian it could put them off for life! ??? ;D More seriously.......without that element of nostalgia I think they will have little if any appeal. In my case,I only bought one of their Lps;the one of For Valour,In Memoriam and Festal Dance. I've never been too keen on For Valour. It's too much like Brian trying to ape one of his idols;but In Memoriam is,I think,quite a fine piece,in it's own way,and by it's nature,an easier piece for youngsters to tackle. Because of this,even though the strings are a bit like the proverbial chalk/nails on blackboard torture,at times,they were able to make a reasonably good stab at it. Festal Dance,on the other hand,strikes me as the sort of wacky,eccentric piece that is ideal for a youth orchestra to have some fun with. The recording also includes the obbligato piano part which means it still has some interest to Brianites,or anyone interested in early Brian;as the only other available recordings,even though they are professional,don't.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 03, 2017, 09:04:13 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 03, 2017, 04:38:51 AM
I personally thought the liner notes were rubbish  :D


Refreshing honesty, as ever.  ;)


Re the HYO recordings - I'm with Cilgwyn. The main value is nostalgic. We've had so many good recordings in the past 30 years, reviving them would only be of historic interest. That said - Doctor Merryheart (final section), the Fantastic Variations (climax) and In Memoriam are certainly not as dire as one could fear. Especially that climax of the Fantastic Variations with the organ is thrilling.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 03, 2017, 01:00:09 PM
I thought the main problem with the HYO recordings was that they sounded as though they were playing at the bottom of a life-shaft.

Is this something that could be rectified by tweaking?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 03, 2017, 01:14:09 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 03, 2017, 01:00:09 PM
I thought the main problem with the HYO recordings was that they sounded as though they were playing at the bottom of a life-shaft.

Is this something that could be rectified by tweaking?


;D


No tweaking can change the out-of-tune violins... (Or can it?!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 03, 2017, 04:58:07 PM
Btw very interesting piece in the HBW newsletter, Johan.

Also of interest was that with this 250th newsletter they sent out the 1st, which was from 1976 and was typed. I was struck by how well people wrote in those days; the newsletter showed no signs of any tipex* or corrections, yet it was clear, elegant and completely free of typos. Despite word processing and spell check we can't see to get this level of writing skill these days.

;D

* there is a rumour or urban myth that when tipex was launched the original slogan was going to be 'Typists, cover your boobs in tipex!'
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 03, 2017, 10:40:20 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 03, 2017, 04:58:07 PM
Btw very interesting piece in the HBS newsletter, Johan.

Also of interest was that with this 250th newsletter they sent out the 1st, which was from 1976 and was typed. I was struck by how well people wrote in those days; the newsletter showed no signs of any tipex* or corrections, yet it was clear, elegant and completely free of typos. Despite word processing and spell check we can't see to get this level of writing skill these days.

;D

* there is a rumour or urban myth that when tipex was launched the original slogan was going to be 'Typists, cover your boobs in tipex!'


Thank you. I hope to collect my thoughts about Brian, after living with his music for almost 40 years now, and to offer them to the NL readers in the coming issues.


I joined the HBS when NL50 had just been published: December 1983. It's a pity people like Simpson, Truscott and MacDonald are no longer with us to enlighten us about Brian.


In the Netherlands they spell it Tipp-ex...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 03:08:03 AM
And hopefully the book will follow! :)
I rather like calyptorhyncus' idea of using modern technology to 'tweak' the Hull Youth SO into tune. So much time and possible expense when you can just make some new professional recordings,though! ;D I will grit my teeth and have another listen to the Fantastic Variations soon,for that thrilling climax with organ,you single out! I seem to remember vandermolen saying he quite liked their recording of Bantock! I'm not sure,but wasn't that the recording that killed the Hull Youth SO/Cameo collaboration off? Bad reviews,I think? I've actually been listening to recordings of Die Fledermaus for the last few days!! ??? ;D The LSSO recordings next!!
For my money,the Hull Youth SO orchestra are still better than the Plovdiv Philharmonic Orchestra. Their recordings of Louis Glass are as bad as it gets. At least the Hull Youth SO had an excuse!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 04, 2017, 03:15:05 AM
That climax IS thrilling, I assure you!


A Brian book? That will never happen. But I have a few ideas about him. What is even more, as a writer I have learned a few structural tricks from him. Literature influenced Brian strongly, and now he has influenced literature. Even my first novel will be in two parts, each divided into three 'books' each, like the Gothic. Which I never wanted...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 04, 2017, 03:20:15 AM
Can't fight it!  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 04, 2017, 03:36:42 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 04, 2017, 03:20:15 AM
Can't fight it!  8)


The Man runs deep.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on May 04, 2017, 05:23:46 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 03:08:03 AMbetter than the Plovdiv Philharmonic Orchestra
You better try again:  :D
https://www.youtube.com/v/yNKeduL98dQ
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 07:35:03 AM
With due respect,I think I'd rather listen to a cd-r of John's neighbours cutting down trees!! ::) ;D
And by the way,I'm putting cd 2 of this set on,now. I will start with Symphony No 22,though;as I haven't listened to any Brian symphonies for a while!! ::) :-[

(http://i.imgur.com/rr1NXxs.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 09:44:08 AM
Erm,I haven't actually put it on just yet!! As I was about to put it on I realised that I hadn't put on cd 2 of the Karajan Die Fledermaus 'Gala Scene' set!! ??? And then tea time intervened!! Once this ends it will be going on!!The best laid plans! ::)

(http://i.imgur.com/TUIO9TD.jpg)

I was looking at one of those hats in Marks and Spencer a few days ago!! I don't think it would suit me!! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 04, 2017, 09:47:47 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 09:44:08 AM
I was looking at one of those hats in Marks and Spencer a few days ago!! I don't think it would suit me!! :(


Let us be the judge of that!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 04, 2017, 10:12:58 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 03, 2017, 01:00:09 PM
I thought the main problem with the HYO recordings was that they sounded as though they were playing at the bottom of a life-shaft.

Is this something that could be rectified by tweaking?
No. They are very basic and the mics were set at some distance from the orchestra in a swimmy acoustic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 04, 2017, 10:19:28 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 03:08:03 AM
And hopefully the book will follow! :)
I rather like calyptorhyncus' idea of using modern technology to 'tweak' the Hull Youth SO into tune. So much time and possible expense when you can just make some new professional recordings,though! ;D I will grit my teeth and have another listen to the Fantastic Variations soon,for that thrilling climax with organ,you single out! I seem to remember vandermolen saying he quite liked their recording of Bantock! I'm not sure,but wasn't that the recording that killed the Hull Youth SO/Cameo collaboration off? Bad reviews,I think? I've actually been listening to recordings of Die Fledermaus for the last few days!! ??? ;D The LSSO recordings next!!
For my money,the Hull Youth SO orchestra are still better than the Plovdiv Philharmonic Orchestra. Their recordings of Louis Glass are as bad as it gets. At least the Hull Youth SO had an excuse!!
Sorry but no such technology exists. You can't tweak a two track recording and just somehow change the violins and leave everything else as is. Doesn't work that way. In some of my transcriptions I've had to carry out pitch corrections but that's a different issue and quite easy to do. e.g the Brian piano disc which was just a tad flat.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 04, 2017, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 03:08:03 AM
And hopefully the book will follow! :)
I rather like calyptorhyncus' idea of using modern technology to 'tweak' the Hull Youth SO into tune. So much time and possible expense when you can just make some new professional recordings,though! ;D I will grit my teeth and have another listen to the Fantastic Variations soon,for that thrilling climax with organ,you single out! I seem to remember vandermolen saying he quite liked their recording of Bantock! I'm not sure,but wasn't that the recording that killed the Hull Youth SO/Cameo collaboration off? Bad reviews,I think? I've actually been listening to recordings of Die Fledermaus for the last few days!! ??? ;D The LSSO recordings next!!
For my money,the Hull Youth SO orchestra are still better than the Plovdiv Philharmonic Orchestra. Their recordings of Louis Glass are as bad as it gets. At least the Hull Youth SO had an excuse!!
Their Bantock is better than the Brian but the distant wishy washy acoustic covers a multitude of sins. No plans to release this either. The string playing simply isn't acceptable.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 04, 2017, 10:25:35 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 07:35:03 AM
With due respect,I think I'd rather listen to a cd-r of John's neighbours cutting down trees!! ::) ;D
And by the way,I'm putting cd 2 of this set on,now. I will start with Symphony No 22,though;as I haven't listened to any Brian symphonies for a while!! ::) :-[

(http://i.imgur.com/rr1NXxs.jpg)
At least the chain saw is in tune.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 04, 2017, 10:34:29 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 03:08:03 AM
And hopefully the book will follow! :)
I rather like calyptorhyncus' idea of using modern technology to 'tweak' the Hull Youth SO into tune. So much time and possible expense when you can just make some new professional recordings,though! ;D I will grit my teeth and have another listen to the Fantastic Variations soon,for that thrilling climax with organ,you single out! I seem to remember vandermolen saying he quite liked their recording of Bantock! I'm not sure,but wasn't that the recording that killed the Hull Youth SO/Cameo collaboration off? Bad reviews,I think? I've actually been listening to recordings of Die Fledermaus for the last few days!! ??? ;D The LSSO recordings next!!
For my money,the Hull Youth SO orchestra are still better than the Plovdiv Philharmonic Orchestra. Their recordings of Louis Glass are as bad as it gets. At least the Hull Youth SO had an excuse!!
Cilgwyn, was it you who sent me the Opera Viva 2 LP set? Although I made a transcription for Klassic Haus, Heritage has now asked if they can use it as a new release. Myself and Curt Timmons have said yes and will not ask for any fee, just a mention in the booklet. If it happens it's only right that we include a line such as "LPs courtesy of Cilgwyn (forgot your name!!)". Lewis Foreman is keen on the idea and we might add some previously unreleased stuff to pad the set out.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 10:59:28 AM
No,this would be Albion,I presume? Do you mean the Lp set of excerpts from rare English operas? Albion posts regularly at the Art Music Forum,if you want to contact him.

I'm going to brave their string section after I've listened to the LSSO recordings,which I will be putting on shortly! I was wondering myself about those strings,and how much they can do to old recordings,besides merely cleaning them up,getting rid of surface noise,etc. I've also heard about missing notes being added to old recordings. I think one was a Mahler Barbirolli (I'll have to find the cd;it's in the booklet) and one that shocked me! Transfers of Lp Recordings that were apparently speeded up,imperceptibly,so the recording would fit on a single cd. But done in such a way that the average listener wouldn't notice. Again,I think this applies to some Barbirolli,or even Klemperer recordings,and the old Chalabala 1960's recordings of Dvorak's Eben tone poems! Is this true?!!  I remember looking at the timings,and comparing,and they did seem different!! This would be emi and Supraphon,if true?!
I also know that they can perform all kinds of marvels with old movies. You get good prints,and then you get studio jobs  on old movies with access to the master prints and they look almost brand new! Some prints positively sparkle,they look so good. If it wasn't for the old cars and costumes I could almost believe they were new (albeit filmed in b& w).

Johan:I've got another hat,I still haven't had the courage to put on. It looks okay on my father,but he's eighty five! I'm waiting for a rainy day. No one will notice then. Or maybe one dark night? I was just posting about Langgaard on the "What are you listening to now" thread (they think I'm listening to that Brian cd!) and it occurred to me that,I seem to remember reading that  Rued used to like taking walks at three in the morning. Maybe that would be a good time? I haven't got any too-short trousers,though!! ::) :( ;D
Maybe a Rued Langgaard appreciation society could be fun?!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 04, 2017, 11:09:12 AM
I would certainly join that society. And also buy the requisite trousers.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on May 04, 2017, 11:28:30 AM
Fedoras are rather modish now, albeit Havergal's hat is a trifle higher and squarer than current trends. I have a dozen or so, including straw hats (boaters, I think they were called back in the day).  Very useful to wear when baseball caps* are not suitable to the place or outfit.

*What do they call them in Britain? I have caps aplenty for several sports including football, hockey, basketball, and soccer. Manchester United, Chelsea Rangers, and Madrid Real. Two for Chelsea...and I actually know nothing about the teams, just bought then for the look. And two caps not sport related but Boston related (my home town).

So wear that hat and do Havergal proud.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 04, 2017, 11:32:42 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 04, 2017, 11:28:30 AMSo wear that hat and do Havergal proud.


Hear hear!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 11:52:52 AM
It's been a woolly hat (thermal machine knit,not bobble type) for the last few months. It started to get a bit warmer recently,which is why I bought that other hat. Luckily the weather has deteriorated a little,so I was able to wear the woolly hat today! It could look a bit odd when the weather starts to get hot,though. If it does? I notice some youngsters wear hoodies up over their heads even in July and August;so there may be hope. Otherwise,it's the green,rimmed hat. It is waterproof,so once it rains I will get my chance. A fedora,though?!! ::) ??? A waistcoat,perhaps? I'll look like a waiter,though!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 12:03:28 PM
Psalm 23 is quite stirring in places. Not sure it's Brian at his best,though. The LSSO performance of No 22 sweeps you right into his soundworld. I'm going to have to listen to the Naxos performance again,now. The sound on this Heritage set is terrific. I love the sound of the LSSO strings in the Reverie movement of English Suite No 5. It makes you feel a bit sorry for those Hull Youth Players. I wonder what they would have made of it?! ??? :o :o :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on May 04, 2017, 10:42:22 PM
It was me who sent John the Opera Viva double album, I think,...my memory is not what it should have been. John made a very good transcription and there's some good music there.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 11:38:16 PM
Just posted this on the "What are you listening to now" thread.

"Let's hear it for Britain's own answer to Rued Langgaard! ;D Actually,the only similarity is that they were both outsiders and prolific. One great day there will a boxed set of the complete Brian symphonies like there is for Langgaard. In the meantime there is a new Naxos cd of his symphonies lined up for Autumn release,a recording of vocal and early orchestral works planned for July,for release on the Dutton label and Naxos are,apparently,already planning a follow up to their Autumn release of more symphonies!! In the meantime I'm playing these premiere recordings of Brian symphonies by the LSSO. Eat your heart out Rued!! :P ;D"

(http://i.imgur.com/TUIO9TD.jpg)

Erm,I just thought. I hope you don't mind me posting about this potential Naxos follow up?!! ::) :-[
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 04, 2017, 11:54:36 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 03, 2017, 04:51:49 AM
I'm continuing to do some work with Klassic Haus, Heritage and Nimbus (Cameo Classics). Cameo is a strange label with a few hidden gems, including a restoration I made of the Brian piano music http://www.wyastone.co.uk/havergal-brian-the-complete-music-for-piano.html   Quick question. One CD that we have so far not released is the Hull/Brian set. Cards on table. The playing is not very good (I am trying to be polite) and the general view is that it really shouldn't be released. The LSSO/Heritage has historic significance and some remarkable playing. Can the Hull set have any such claims? Thoughts please. Going off topic here's a fine set of the Brandenburgs (Harry Newstone) I've transferred on behalf of Heritage in conjunction with Klassic Haus http://www.mdt.co.uk/bach-brandenburg-concertos-1-6-harry-newstone-heritage-2cds.html
Thanks and I already have symphonies 8 and 14 with Myer Fredman/Edward Downes conducting the RPO and LSO. I've always rated Fredman's Bax recordings on Lyrita very much and Downes's version of Bax's Third Symphony on RCA is my favourite recorded performance although infuriatingly never released on CD.  The HB Symphony 8 is a nice compliment to the Groves recording and I hadn't realised how good Symphony 14 is although I have a recording on Dutton. I also ordered another copy of the Symphony 3 Pope recording for a fellow HB nutter friend and - it came without the notes from our own Johan  >:D >:D >:D. So, I sent them a stroppy message and received an apology claiming that I'd mistakenly been sent an earlier batch - they are sending me the notes separately. Johan, did you provide notes for symphonies 8 and 14 too?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 04, 2017, 11:58:17 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 11:38:16 PM
Just posted this on the "What are you listening to now" thread.

"Let's hear it for Britain's own answer to Rued Langgaard! ;D Actually,the only similarity is that they were both outsiders and prolific. One great day there will a boxed set of the complete Brian symphonies like there is for Langgaard. In the meantime there is a new Naxos cd of his symphonies lined up for Autumn release,a recording of vocal and early orchestral works planned for July,for release on the Dutton label and Naxos are,apparently,already planning a follow up to their Autumn release of more symphonies!! In the meantime I'm playing these premiere recordings of Brian symphonies by the LSSO. Eat your heart out Rued!! :P ;D"

(http://i.imgur.com/TUIO9TD.jpg)

Erm,I just thought. I hope you don't mind me posting about this potential Naxos follow up?!! ::) :-[
I love that fine LSSO set with the fine photo on the front. I wish we had the Hull Youth Orchestra recording of Bantock's Hebriddean Symphony on CD too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 05, 2017, 12:00:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 04, 2017, 11:58:17 PM
I love that fine LSSO set with the fine photo on the front. I wish we had the Hull Youth Orchestra recording of Bantock's Hebriddean Symphony on CD too.
There you are,John! You're call! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 05, 2017, 12:31:25 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 05, 2017, 12:00:49 AM
There you are,John! You're call! ;D
By the way, I still enjoyed your 'Pope' joke.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2017, 01:38:50 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 04, 2017, 11:54:36 PM
I also ordered another copy of the Symphony 3 Pope recording for a fellow HB nutter friend and - it came without the notes from our own Johan  >:D >:D >:D . So, I sent them a stroppy message and received an apology claiming that I'd mistakenly been sent an earlier batch - they are sending me the notes separately. Johan, did you provide notes for symphonies 8 and 14 too?

I did them all, Jeffrey. I'll attach them here, for those interested...

P.S. Have to look for 8 and 14...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2017, 01:43:27 AM
Cannot find a file with liner notes for 8 and 14. So I'll attach a jpg.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2017, 01:50:48 AM
The final one, for the Violin Concerto and Symphony No. 28.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 05, 2017, 01:52:27 AM
Thank you,Johan. Unfortunately,a message is popping up telling me I need Office for the others!! :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2017, 01:53:44 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 05, 2017, 01:52:27 AM
Thank you,Johan. Unfortunately,a message is popping up telling me I need Office for the others!! :(

Which ones? Oh, you mean the doc files. I'll post them as jpg files.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2017, 02:01:13 AM
The first...

It must read 'Allegro assai'... Where did that s go to?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2017, 02:02:09 AM
The second...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2017, 02:03:01 AM
The third...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2017, 02:03:38 AM
And the fourth.
Title: !
Post by: cilgwyn on May 05, 2017, 02:08:21 AM
Microsoft Office is in the list of Programs. I think it might just need to be activated. I have to admit I am a bit of a pen and paper man. Pencil and paper for my novel writing attempts!! Although,if I ever get as far as trying to get something published I obviously (hopefully!) won't send it out like that!! I even have a fully functional typewriter here (no web distractions!!). I've had this pc for over a year now and Microsoft Office has been low on my list of priorities. There's still hope,though! I stopped using crayon a few years ago!! ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2017, 02:11:49 AM
I won't force you to use Office...  0:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 05, 2017, 02:50:53 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on May 04, 2017, 10:42:22 PM
It was me who sent John the Opera Viva double album, I think,...my memory is not what it should have been. John made a very good transcription and there's some good music there.
Thanks!! Can you email me with your full name, please? The Heritage release is some months away, by the way. You can find a link to my email address here:
http://www.lsso.co.uk/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 05, 2017, 02:57:26 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 10:59:28 AM
No,this would be Albion,I presume? Do you mean the Lp set of excerpts from rare English operas? Albion posts regularly at the Art Music Forum,if you want to contact him.

I'm going to brave their string section after I've listened to the LSSO recordings,which I will be putting on shortly! I was wondering myself about those strings,and how much they can do to old recordings,besides merely cleaning them up,getting rid of surface noise,etc. I've also heard about missing notes being added to old recordings. I think one was a Mahler Barbirolli (I'll have to find the cd;it's in the booklet) and one that shocked me! Transfers of Lp Recordings that were apparently speeded up,imperceptibly,so the recording would fit on a single cd. But done in such a way that the average listener wouldn't notice. Again,I think this applies to some Barbirolli,or even Klemperer recordings,and the old Chalabala 1960's recordings of Dvorak's Eben tone poems! Is this true?!!  I remember looking at the timings,and comparing,and they did seem different!! This would be emi and Supraphon,if true?!
I also know that they can perform all kinds of marvels with old movies. You get good prints,and then you get studio jobs  on old movies with access to the master prints and they look almost brand new! Some prints positively sparkle,they look so good. If it wasn't for the old cars and costumes I could almost believe they were new (albeit filmed in b& w).

Johan:I've got another hat,I still haven't had the courage to put on. It looks okay on my father,but he's eighty five! I'm waiting for a rainy day. No one will notice then. Or maybe one dark night? I was just posting about Langgaard on the "What are you listening to now" thread (they think I'm listening to that Brian cd!) and it occurred to me that,I seem to remember reading that  Rued used to like taking walks at three in the morning. Maybe that would be a good time? I haven't got any too-short trousers,though!! ::) :( ;D
Maybe a Rued Langgaard appreciation society could be fun?!! ;D
You can clean up the sound, remove clicks and pops from LPs, add reverb, change the bass and treble etc etc. You can also add missing notes if you have a source for the missing note that matches. In the past I've also done pitch corrections (easy) and sometimes used other fiddles. For example. if there is an identical 8 bar phrase in a piece of music and the second appearance of the phrase is scrappy then it's possible to delete the dodgy passage and then paste in the perfect version. 90% of the time it's just about removing surface noise and modifying the soundstage in terms of top, bottom and reverb.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 05, 2017, 03:03:55 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 04, 2017, 11:28:30 AM
Fedoras are rather modish now, albeit Havergal's hat is a trifle higher and squarer than current trends. I have a dozen or so, including straw hats (boaters, I think they were called back in the day).  Very useful to wear when baseball caps* are not suitable to the place or outfit.

*What do they call them in Britain? I have caps aplenty for several sports including football, hockey, basketball, and soccer. Manchester United, Chelsea Rangers, and Madrid Real. Two for Chelsea...and I actually know nothing about the teams, just bought then for the look. And two caps not sport related but Boston related (my home town).

So wear that hat and do Havergal proud.
How dare you. I have numerous hats, shirts and scarves that proclaim: "Leicester City 2015/16 Champions of England"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 05, 2017, 03:07:00 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 12:03:28 PM
Psalm 23 is quite stirring in places. Not sure it's Brian at his best,though. The LSSO performance of No 22 sweeps you right into his soundworld. I'm going to have to listen to the Naxos performance again,now. The sound on this Heritage set is terrific. I love the sound of the LSSO strings in the Reverie movement of English Suite No 5. It makes you feel a bit sorry for those Hull Youth Players. I wonder what they would have made of it?! ??? :o :o :o ;D
The playing is vastly superior on Naxos but I sort of prefer the thin, clean LSSO record which seems to have a bit more drive and atmosphere. I'm biased of course........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on May 05, 2017, 03:11:15 AM
 
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 05, 2017, 02:50:53 AM
Thanks!! Can you email me with your full name, please? The Heritage release is some months away, by the way. You can find a link to my email address here:
http://www.lsso.co.uk/

Hi John, The link doesn't seem to work for me and I no loinger have your address. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 05, 2017, 03:14:01 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 04, 2017, 12:03:28 PM
Psalm 23 is quite stirring in places. Not sure it's Brian at his best,though. The LSSO performance of No 22 sweeps you right into his soundworld. I'm going to have to listen to the Naxos performance again,now. The sound on this Heritage set is terrific. I love the sound of the LSSO strings in the Reverie movement of English Suite No 5. It makes you feel a bit sorry for those Hull Youth Players. I wonder what they would have made of it?! ??? :o :o :o ;D
Don't feel sorry for the Hull players. They did a sterling job and should be applauded for taking Brian on. It would have been a marvellous experience for them. Should the results have been released commercially? That's another issue.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 05, 2017, 03:17:15 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on May 05, 2017, 03:11:15 AM

Hi John, The link doesn't seem to work for me and I no loinger have your address. To make it easy my name is Stephen T Reece. I'll leave my name up until you reply.
Cheers. Name saved. As and when Heritage do this I will get you a copy.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on May 05, 2017, 03:52:21 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 05, 2017, 03:17:15 AM
Cheers. Name saved. As and when Heritage do this I will get you a copy.
Thanks. I'll look forward to it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on May 05, 2017, 10:50:39 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 05, 2017, 03:03:55 AM
How dare you. I have numerous hats, shirts and scarves that proclaim: "Leicester City 2015/16 Champions of England"

Not my fault. Haven't seen them here.  Apparently you Brits bought the entire production run.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 05, 2017, 10:53:53 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 05, 2017, 10:50:39 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 05, 2017, 03:03:55 AM
How dare you. I have numerous hats, shirts and scarves that proclaim: "Leicester City 2015/16 Champions of England"

Not my fault. Haven't seen them here.  Apparently you Brits bought the entire production run.


I think I saw one last summer in Providence?—no, no, that was the Bruins.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 05, 2017, 04:11:59 PM
I was just reading through Johan's excellent sleeve-notes and lit upon this phrase describing the 5th Symphony:

"....one of Brian's most English efforts, austere and coldly lyrical".

Funnily enough "austere and coldly lyrical" is how several people have described me.

:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2017, 09:02:14 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 05, 2017, 04:11:59 PM
I was just reading through Johan's excellent sleeve-notes and lit upon this phrase describing the 5th Symphony:

"....one of Brian's most English efforts, austere and coldly lyrical".

Funnily enough "austere and coldly lyrical" is how several people have described me.

:D


From now on, your name will be - Wine of Summer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 05, 2017, 11:25:05 PM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2017, 01:43:27 AM
Cannot find a file with liner notes for 8 and 14. So I'll attach a jpg.
Brilliant, great notes Johan and agree that 8 is one of the greatest with 10 and 1. My other favourites are 3,6,7,9,16 and 22 getting to like no.2 more as well.
Thanks Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 05, 2017, 11:27:33 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 04, 2017, 10:23:03 AM
Their Bantock is better than the Brian but the distant wishy washy acoustic covers a multitude of sins. No plans to release this either. The string playing simply isn't acceptable.
Pity about that. Thought the Performance had a great atmosphere to it but maybe I'm prejudiced as it was the first time I heard that fine score.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2017, 11:51:19 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2017, 11:25:05 PM
Brilliant, great notes Johan and agree that 8 is one of the greatest with 10 and 1. My other favourites are 3,6,7,9,16 and 22 getting to like no.2 more as well.
Thanks Johan.


Thanks, Jeffrey. It was fun writing them. It is clear, though, that the late and much-lamented Malcolm MacDonald will never be excelled...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 06, 2017, 12:18:57 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2017, 11:51:19 PM

Thanks, Jeffrey. It was fun writing them. It is clear, though, that the late and much-lamented Malcolm MacDonald will never be excelled...
Your take on HB is just as valid Johan and you are a writer as well.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: ahinton on May 06, 2017, 12:21:56 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2017, 11:51:19 PMIt is clear, though, that the late and much-lamented Malcolm MacDonald will never be excelled...
Indeed so!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 06, 2017, 01:51:00 AM
Thank you for posting these,Johan. I will read your notes today. Unfortunately,a migraine meant pc monitors were a no-go area!  I don't think Brian's music (or the LSSO) was to blame?!! ;D But I must admit,the more strenuous writing of No 23 didn't help!! The election results may also have been a factor?!! ::) Migraine sufferers may be interested to know that  holding my head under the cold tap for 1' 30" and a further 2 mins and a bit,until the coldness actually 'hurt' actually relieved the symptoms. Two ibuprofens and a quarter of a paracetamol tablet and to my astonishment the pain and throbbing that came with it had gone!!! It sounds nutty,but apparently some people think migraine pain has something to do with the blood vessels. Apply cold water,or ice,and it affects the blood vessels. It usually alleviates the pain for a while;but can get rid of the d*** thing on occasion. I should point out that Taking any dosage of paracetamol or any painkiller above the recommended dosage is inadvisable and not recommended. This relates to a Guardian article which suggested that taking an extra pain killer in addition to the recommended dosage could get rid of a migraine! I have only ever gone as far as taking a quarter of one (broken into pieces) as I really don't think that's a good idea!! But neither is banging your head against a brick wall! Even if I had one!!  For the blissfully uninformed: despite the blurbs on the packets,chain store type pain killers don't always work on migraines,and in my case,usually don't! Hope this helps!! Either way,the pile of Brian cd-r's I had lined up had to be put back in the box!!

Other tips to alleviate a migraine : Don't listen to the Hull Youth SO and definitely avoid Das Siegeslied! ::) ??? :o!
                                                       Jon Leifs. Well,what can I say?!! ::) ??? :o :o :o :(

After the migraine had gone,after reading the posts on the "What are you listening to now" thread,I just couldn't resist putting on Denmark's own answer to Havergal Brian. The Chandos cd of symphonies 4,5 & 6. Off topic,I know (along with Migraine relief advice) but I totally agree with the comments on the WAYLTN thread;this really is quite extraordinary music. I'm still listening now!

Hope no one here has a throbbing head. Although you might after reading this!! ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 06, 2017, 01:56:55 AM
Quote from: J. Z. Herrenberg on May 05, 2017, 09:02:14 PM

From now on, your name will be - Wine of Summer.
To my ears it's more like Whine of Summer
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 06, 2017, 02:00:28 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2017, 11:27:33 PM
Pity about that. Thought the Performance had a great atmosphere to it but maybe I'm prejudiced as it was the first time I heard that fine score.
I agree but it was an atmosphere produced by a distant orchestra recorded in a swimming pool. I have a copy if you would like it. Just buy the RPO Hyperion set. Superb. You can contact me by email if you go to http://www.lsso.co.uk and let me have your address.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 06, 2017, 02:05:32 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 06, 2017, 01:51:00 AM
Thank you for posting these,Johan. I will read your notes today. Unfortunately,a migraine meant pc monitors were a no-go area!  I don't think Brian's music (or the LSSO) was to blame?!! ;D But I must admit,the more strenuous writing of No 23 didn't help!! The election results may also have been a factor?!! ::) Migraine sufferers may be interested to know that  holding my head under the cold tap for 1' 30" and a further 2 mins and a bit,until the coldness actually 'hurt' actually relieved the symptoms. Two ibuprofens and a quarter of a paracetamol tablet and to my astonishment the pain and throbbing that came with it had gone!!! It sounds nutty,but apparently some people think migraine pain has something to do with the blood vessels. Apply cold water,or ice,and it affects the blood vessels. It usually alleviates the pain for a while;but can get rid of the d*** thing on occasion. I should point out that Taking any dosage of paracetamol or any painkiller above the recommended dosage is inadvisable and not recommended. This relates to a Guardian article which suggested that taking an extra pain killer in addition to the recommended dosage could get rid of a migraine! I have only ever gone as far as taking a quarter of one (broken into pieces) as I really don't think that's a good idea!! But neither is banging your head against a brick wall! Even if I had one!!  For the blissfully uninformed: despite the blurbs on the packets,chain store type pain killers don't always work on migraines,and in my case,usually don't! Hope this helps!! Either way,the pile of Brian cd-r's I had lined up had to be put back in the box!!

Other tips to alleviate a migraine : Don't listen to the Hull Youth SO and definitely avoid Das Siegeslied! ::) ??? :o!
                                                       Jon Leifs. Well,what can I say?!! ::) ??? :o :o :o :(

After the migraine had gone,after reading the posts on the "What are you listening to now" thread,I just couldn't resist putting on Denmark's own answer to Havergal Brian. The Chandos cd of symphonies 4,5 & 6. Off topic,I know (along with Migraine relief advice) but I totally agree with the comments on the WAYLTN thread;this really is quite extraordinary music. I'm still listening now!

Hope no one here has a throbbing head. Although you might after reading this!! ;D
I've sent this to Diane "maths genius" Abbott. She will be most grateful provided that she doesn't misread your 2 minutes as 2,000 minutes or 80 million minutes.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 06, 2017, 02:18:28 AM
 :D This could be the most helpful.......polite advice she's had!! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2017, 02:20:07 AM
Quote from: ahinton on May 06, 2017, 12:21:56 AM
Indeed so!


Nice to be in agreement with the Sorabji expert.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 06, 2017, 03:42:50 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 06, 2017, 02:00:28 AM
I agree but it was an atmosphere produced by a distant orchestra recorded in a swimming pool. I have a copy if you would like it. Just buy the RPO Hyperion set. Superb. You can contact me by email if you go to http://www.lsso.co.uk and let me have your address.
Did they really record this in a swimming pool,John? I can't swim,and the water looks pretty rough in there!! ??? :o ;D

(http://i.imgur.com/waPqqsQ.jpg)

I just looked this up. I hadn't seen this before. I'm sure I read somewhere that it was a planned,or never released Lp of Holbrooke that finally sank the HYSO/Cameo project!


Memo: It would be Holbrooke?!! >:( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 06, 2017, 05:14:17 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 06, 2017, 03:42:50 AM
Did they really record this in a swimming pool,John? I can't swim,and the water looks pretty rough in there!! ??? :o ;D

(http://i.imgur.com/waPqqsQ.jpg)

I just looked this up. I hadn't seen this before. I'm sure I read somewhere that it was a planned,or never released Lp of Holbrooke that finally sank the HYSO/Cameo project!


Memo: It would be Holbrooke?!! >:( ;D
Just playing it now. Certainly sounds like it. Recording a piece such as this from what sounds the back of the stalls using a stereo mic (crossed pair I assume) may not have been the best of ideas.To be fair at least the sound has some bloom, the Naxos version is terrible. The orchestra has a fair old crack at the piece and they should be proud of their efforts. For youth players to get involved in playing unusual repertoire such as this simply has to be applauded. I just don't think that it's up to commercial standards. The Holbrooke coupling is a bit of a shocker. I also have a transfer that I made of Hull playing German's 2nd symphony. It's quite decent.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 06, 2017, 08:10:51 AM
I can see your point. Fun and educational for them to play and probably for family members and maybe even a fun  night out for the local community;string section notwithstanding & possibly part of the fun?!!! ;D) but to play over and over again in the homes of strangers?!! An enterprising initiative on the part of those behind it,though. Using a youth orchestra to disseminate off the beaten track scores,that would otherwise remain unrecorded;and presumably at a relatively low cost,in contrast to using a professional orchestra. It must have seemed like a much better idea on paper and at discussion level!! Still,it wasn't a complete waste of time. I enjoyed Festal Dance and In Memoriam,even if it made me wonder whether the younger Brian really did compose music for his string section which was always slightly out of tune,and,if so,why?!! ::) ;D Johan enjoyed the Fantastic Variations amongst other early scores,which he wouldn't have been able to hear otherwise;and vandermolen enjoyed their recording of the Hebridean Symphony. A thought occurs to me here. At this point in time,when this Lp came out,had vandermolen heard any other recordings of this work?  And if I was one of those Hull musicians I would have been thrilled that my efforts were being released on an Lp!!! So,I think it was a worthwhile project in some ways! Unfortunately,the problems you point to,inevitably,leading to it's untimely demise!
The photo chosen for the sleeve of the Edward German Symphony is rather nice,I might add!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 06, 2017, 09:38:35 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 06, 2017, 08:10:51 AM
I can see your point. Fun and educational for them to play and probably for family members and maybe even a fun  night out for the local community;string section notwithstanding & possibly part of the fun?!!! ;D) but to play over and over again in the homes of strangers?!! An enterprising initiative on the part of those behind it,though. Using a youth orchestra to disseminate off the beaten track scores,that would otherwise remain unrecorded;and presumably at a relatively low cost,in contrast to using a professional orchestra. It must have seemed like a much better idea on paper and at discussion level!! Still,it wasn't a complete waste of time. I enjoyed Festal Dance and In Memoriam,even if it made me wonder whether the younger Brian really did compose music for his string section which was always slightly out of tune,and,if so,why?!! ::) ;D Johan enjoyed the Fantastic Variations amongst other early scores,which he wouldn't have been able to hear otherwise;and vandermolen enjoyed their recording of the Hebridean Symphony. A thought occurs to me here. At this point in time,when this Lp came out,had vandermolen heard any other recordings of this work?  And if I was one of those Hull musicians I would have been thrilled that my efforts were being released on an Lp!!! So,I think it was a worthwhile project in some ways! Unfortunately,the problems you point to,inevitably,leading to it's untimely demise!
The photo chosen for the sleeve of the Edward German Symphony is rather nice,I might add!
Brian wrote tonal music. It's out of tune because it's not played properly. Ditto many passages in the LSSO recordings. It's amateurs vs pros at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 06, 2017, 11:52:26 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 06, 2017, 03:42:50 AM
Did they really record this in a swimming pool,John? I can't swim,and the water looks pretty rough in there!! ??? :o ;D

(http://i.imgur.com/waPqqsQ.jpg)

I just looked this up. I hadn't seen this before. I'm sure I read somewhere that it was a planned,or never released Lp of Holbrooke that finally sank the HYSO/Cameo project!


Memo: It would be Holbrooke?!! >:( ;D
cilgwyn,
Great to see the cover again - thank you.

John,
Thanks for your kind offer - I will be in touch.
I enjoyed your Diane Abbott comment too!
Jeffrey
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2017, 11:56:05 PM
I wonder what would come out if you asked Diane Abbott: 'How many symphonies did Havergal Brian compose?'
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 07, 2017, 12:01:31 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2017, 11:56:05 PM
I wonder what would come out if you asked Diane Abbott: 'How many symphonies did Havergal Brian compose?'
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 07, 2017, 12:10:18 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 06, 2017, 02:00:28 AM
I agree but it was an atmosphere produced by a distant orchestra recorded in a swimming pool. I have a copy if you would like it. Just buy the RPO Hyperion set. Superb. You can contact me by email if you go to http://www.lsso.co.uk and let me have your address.
OT

I have the great Hyperion set, the Marco Polo/Naxos and an interesting Boult version on Intaglio possibly a bootleg. Downes's Pagan Symphony on BBC Radio Classics is also very good I think.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 07, 2017, 12:50:21 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2017, 11:56:05 PM
I wonder what would come out if you asked Diane Abbott: 'How many symphonies did Havergal Brian compose?'
DA: At the time of this interview it was 6.
Interviewer: It's actually more than 30
DA: Last time I looked it was 25
Interviewer: Why did you say 6 then?
DA: I misspoke
;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on May 07, 2017, 01:37:02 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 07, 2017, 12:50:21 AMDA: At the time of this interview it was 6.
Interviewer: It's actually more than 30
DA: Last time I looked it was 25
Interviewer: Why did you say 6 then?
DA: I misspoke
;D 
;D :D ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2017, 02:58:42 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 07, 2017, 12:50:21 AM
DA: At the time of this interview it was 6.
Interviewer: It's actually more than 30
DA: Last time I looked it was 25
Interviewer: Why did you say 6 then?
DA: I misspoke
;D


Good, clean fun on an overcast Sunday.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 07, 2017, 03:24:15 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 05, 2017, 11:27:33 PM
Pity about that. Thought the Performance had a great atmosphere to it but maybe I'm prejudiced as it was the first time I heard that fine score.
;D I would be very interested to hear your reaction to the Hull Youth SO when you are finally reunited with it,after all these years,courtesy of John. I rather like the artwork with the waves crashing and the salt and spray flying everywhere and the name of the symphony splashed across in bold red blooded lettering. It's no masterpiece,but it works for me. I'd have had that propped up in front of me as the Hull Youth SO negotiated Bantock'so virtuoso writing for brass!

To continue the in your face salt and spray theme. Here's one I bought allot earlier! It's so full of sea air and brine,you half expect a band of marauding pirates........and oh dear,I just ordered one from a classified ad in Gramophone. Aharr! Shiver me timbers!  If the musicians union foind ewt,they'll make me walk the plank!! ???

(http://i.imgur.com/y9alSc4.jpg)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 07, 2017, 07:18:46 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 06, 2017, 08:10:51 AM
I can see your point. Fun and educational for them to play and probably for family members and maybe even a fun  night out for the local community;string section notwithstanding & possibly part of the fun?!!! ;D) but to play over and over again in the homes of strangers?!! An enterprising initiative on the part of those behind it,though. Using a youth orchestra to disseminate off the beaten track scores,that would otherwise remain unrecorded;and presumably at a relatively low cost,in contrast to using a professional orchestra. It must have seemed like a much better idea on paper and at discussion level!! Still,it wasn't a complete waste of time. I enjoyed Festal Dance and In Memoriam,even if it made me wonder whether the younger Brian really did compose music for his string section which was always slightly out of tune,and,if so,why?!! ::) ;D Johan enjoyed the Fantastic Variations amongst other early scores,which he wouldn't have been able to hear otherwise;and vandermolen enjoyed their recording of the Hebridean Symphony. A thought occurs to me here. At this point in time,when this Lp came out,had vandermolen heard any other recordings of this work?  And if I was one of those Hull musicians I would have been thrilled that my efforts were being released on an Lp!!! So,I think it was a worthwhile project in some ways! Unfortunately,the problems you point to,inevitably,leading to it's untimely demise!
The photo chosen for the sleeve of the Edward German Symphony is rather nice,I might add!
That Hull/Hebriddean cover image is definitely best of all and no I hadn't heard any other version when I listed to the LP borrowed from the brilliant record library at High Street Kensington, London.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 07, 2017, 07:44:12 AM
To the worst Brian sleeve artwork ever. It is a pirate job,I know;but c'mon,where's the snowman?!! ??? ::) ;D

(http://i.imgur.com/sVSkIi2.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 07, 2017, 09:31:16 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 07, 2017, 03:24:15 AM
;D I would be very interested to hear your reaction to the Hull Youth SO when you are finally reunited with it,after all these years,courtesy of John. I rather like the artwork with the waves crashing and the salt and spray flying everywhere and the name of the symphony splashed across in bold red blooded lettering. It's no masterpiece,but it works for me. I'd have had that propped up in front of me as the Hull Youth SO negotiated Bantock'so virtuoso writing for brass!

To continue the in your face salt and spray theme. Here's one I bought allot earlier! It's so full of sea air and brine,you half expect a band of marauding pirates........and oh dear,I just ordered one from a classified ad in Gramophone. Aharr! Shiver me timbers!  If the musicians union foind ewt,they'll make me walk the plank!! ???

(http://i.imgur.com/y9alSc4.jpg)
1) The artwork on the Bantock is great. Shame about the contents. I really dislike the piece.
2) This Aries LP is the Pope version. Available from Klassic Haus and it sounds sensationally good
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on May 07, 2017, 09:36:58 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on May 06, 2017, 02:00:28 AM
I agree but it was an atmosphere produced by a distant orchestra recorded in a swimming pool.

You give me an idea . . . .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 07, 2017, 09:41:32 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 07, 2017, 07:44:12 AM
To the worst Brian sleeve artwork ever. It is a pirate job,I know;but c'mon,where's the snowman?!! ??? ::) ;D

(http://i.imgur.com/sVSkIi2.jpg)
He's walking in the sky.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2017, 09:44:51 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 07, 2017, 07:44:12 AM
To the worst Brian sleeve artwork ever. It is a pirate job,I know;but c'mon,where's the snowman?!! ??? ::) ;D

(http://i.imgur.com/sVSkIi2.jpg)


Poor Brian. He didn't deserve this.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on May 07, 2017, 10:06:19 AM
Worse than this?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71waiN-uoYL.jpg)

And some of the other Naxos covers are a bit on the "what the Hades is going on here" side....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2017, 10:19:18 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 07, 2017, 10:06:19 AM
Worse than this?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71waiN-uoYL.jpg)

And some of the other Naxos covers are a bit on the "what the Hades is going on here" side....


Yes, worse than that, as far as I'm concerned. The abstraction isn't ludicrous, you only wonder at the appropriateness...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on May 07, 2017, 10:24:14 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2017, 10:19:18 AM

Yes, worse than that, as far as I'm concerned. The abstraction isn't ludicrous, you only wonder at the appropriateness...

I'm inclined to dislike covers that give me nightmares.  Snow covered houses don't do that.  Weird eye in the sky abstracts can.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2017, 10:29:27 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 07, 2017, 10:24:14 AM
I'm inclined to dislike covers that give me nightmares.  Snow covered houses don't do that.  Weird eye in the sky abstracts can.


I'll never see that cover again without your very special view of it.



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on May 07, 2017, 11:19:53 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2017, 10:29:27 AM

I'll never see that cover again without your very special view of it.

It's a pleasure to be of assistance, sir. :P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 07, 2017, 11:39:42 AM
I think I agree with Jeffrey,in a way. I think between the two,I do prefer the photo on the Aries Lp of No3. And to be fair...it is quite a nice photo. It's just trying to work out the connection between that house,the boy the snow and the music inside. The Ninth doesn't exactly evoke holiday type snow scenes,let alone the twelfth,with it's connections with Agamemnon!!! It's as if they just grabbed hold of the first photo they could lay their hands on. I do quite like the way the lettering is placed on the snow drift,though! Cheesy,but cute!  The Naxos,on the other hand,looks a bit like an egg yolk gone wrong....and is that a knife? No sausage and bacon,though?!! Alternatively,it could be a robots face. That's his mouth at the bottom? It is an abstract work of art,I believe? I haven't got the cd,anymore. Either way,it just doesn't fit in with the music inside. That abstract artwork,or designs can,is proven by the classic Lyrita design for the Lyrita Lp pf symphonies 6 & 16. I actually used to think of that design while I was listening to the music. Somehow the shapes seemed like a perfect visual  reflection of the way Brian's music built up in blocks and walls of sound,bit by bit. Like an aural mosaic of sound! I can't resist including the image here again. It's even good enough to put on your wall. With out the lettering,perhaps,and few more of those coloured shapes along the top. An abstract work of art!
One thing that has intrigued me about those Aries releases,and the use of the name Colin Wilson as the name of the conductor. Of course,Colin Wilson was the author of The Outsider. Was this chosen on purpose? I presume so?! It is just far too much of a coincidence for it be otherwise. Brian was,after all,an outsider.

(http://i.imgur.com/ezLFmML.jpg)

This one is very nice,though,indeed. :) This must be Aries Records 'Art' department's best sleeve! Who took this photo? Was it the same photographer who took your Avatar,Johan?

(http://i.imgur.com/OqL14rI.jpg)

PS: I just saw Jeffrey's reply. Just watch that egg yolk eye (on the Naxos). If you leave it on the table it could follow you around?!! ??? :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kishnevi on May 07, 2017, 11:42:26 AM
Fortunately, I always have my eggs scrambled.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2017, 12:10:12 PM
I like that photo of Brian, too, cilgwyn. Don't know who the photographer was... As for 'Colin Wilson', if I'm not mistaken he actually was a member of the HBS once!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 08, 2017, 12:19:59 AM
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 07, 2017, 11:42:26 AM
Fortunately, I always have my eggs scrambled.
;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 08, 2017, 01:00:44 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2017, 10:19:18 AM

Yes, worse than that, as far as I'm concerned. The abstraction isn't ludicrous, you only wonder at the appropriateness...
That red blob reminds me of Hal in 2001. Spooky.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 08, 2017, 07:36:56 AM
I just downloaded the Klassik Haus transfer of the third symphony. It seems that my cd-r of the third  I had was from Dundonnell's old reel to reel off air recording. I'm pretty sure I did have the Klassik Haus recording;but after I got this pc,a clean up led to the loss of the original file! :( Oh well;as Windsor Davies' Seargent Major used to say in It ain't half hot mum,"Oh dear,how sad,never mind!" ::) ;D I'm very grateful to Dundonnell for giving me the first opportunity to hear the Pope performance for many years (I'll keep his as a souvenir!) but this should be quite an upgrade!! Only £5.58 via Paypal,and I get the 'artwork' and booklet notes....I hope! I haven't unzipped it yet. I must put cd-r's on my shopping list,now!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 08, 2017, 07:52:27 AM
I can hear Windsor Davies now...


Good luck with your purchase!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 08, 2017, 08:22:41 AM
You know your British sitcoms,Johan! I got some episodes recently on dvd,and very funny it is! Banned by the BBC,though! ??? ;D Fortunately,Brian isn't;although you don't hear much these days. I wish they'd repeat the Havergal Brian Composer of the Week. I've got most of one episode on a cassette. The one that covers The Tigers;and must get round to transferring it to a cd. The trouble is the pc is upstairs and the cassette deck is downstairs!! ::) I could upload it then,and some other things I've got! It just means lugging stuff about!! ::)
The third is my favourite Brian symphony;if I had to pick one and I hope Dutton will eventually record it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 08, 2017, 08:37:58 AM
SHUT UP!


;)


Yes, I also hope Dutton will do another Third. Naxos is more likely, I think, if they are serious about filling the gaps in their Brian cycle...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 08, 2017, 08:55:00 AM
Naxos would be fine by me,if it's the current team. By the way,who do you think is the best at interpreting Brian's scores? Walker or Brabbins? Both,perhaps? Each offering their own slant! The Russian orchestra was particularly interesting in the Sixth. That Russian sound,but not too raspy like in the old Soviet days;although I rather liked that. I would have loved to hear one of those old Soviet orchestras playing Havergal Brian. Svetlanov conducting,perhaps?!! The Naxos recordings we've had now should also guarantee top notch sound if they do record the third;and let's face it,unless an atomic war occurs,it will happen. A recording of Brian's third,I mean!! ??? ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 08, 2017, 09:17:51 AM
Brabbins did an excellent job with no. 2 and Walker with no. 29. I single those out, because both conductors showed they can indeed slow down. I say this, because Brian's music has weight, and to take  things at too brisk a tempo spoils that. The slow movement which ends no. 24, for instance, is taken too quickly by Alexander Walker, in my opinion. Fredman is much better here. Ergo: I think both conductors are very good, though I sometimes miss the mystery of the music. A no-nonsense approach only brings you so far with Brian. I have the same problem with Dausgaard's Langgaard...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 08, 2017, 09:32:35 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 08, 2017, 08:22:41 AM
You know your British sitcoms,Johan! I got some episodes recently on dvd,and very funny it is! Banned by the BBC,though! ??? ;D Fortunately,Brian isn't;although you don't hear much these days. I wish they'd repeat the Havergal Brian Composer of the Week. I've got most of one episode on a cassette. The one that covers The Tigers;and must get round to transferring it to a cd. The trouble is the pc is upstairs and the cassette deck is downstairs!! ::) I could upload it then,and some other things I've got! It just means lugging stuff about!! ::)
The third is my favourite Brian symphony;if I had to pick one and I hope Dutton will eventually record it.
Just about sums the bloody BBC up, lovely boy. 1,2,3...."Whispering grass......"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 08, 2017, 11:10:18 AM
Yes,I think the Fredman has more atmosphere,really. Also,you're the expert,of course;but I do feel that the approach Walker takes (why am I thinking of Dads Army,now?! ;D) means that when the crisis arrives and all the violence breaks out in the orchestra,it doesn't have quite so much impact. I also wonder,and maybe I'm being like one of those vinyl proponents,that some of those old analogue recordings did have a bit more atmosphere at times. I have no complaints about modern recording technology as such;but some of the recordings around now can be a little too clinical. A bit like the aural equivalent of some old movies you watch. They're so full of that indefinable quality called atmosphere. Now,I'm not intending to get rid of my HD tv anytime soon;but sometimes I do find myself missing that. Everything is so perfect. You can virttually see every blade of grass;but a great movie that doesn't necessarily make. That said,I do accept that some of that is just my age. I do think though,that some of those old Radio 3 'off air' studio recordings of HB symphonies will be the first port of call for Brianites for many years to come;and Fredman's Sixth and Sixteenth,Groves' Eighth and Ninth are going to prove very hard to beat,for a good reason. I think some of those old conductors really did have the edge, Again.it's probably just an age thing;but maybe not?
As to Dausgaard's Langgaard. Please don't tell me that! I only have the whole set!! ;D On the other hand,I was posting on the WAYLTN (What are you listening to now;for the uninitiated here?) and I was saying that the Danacord Lp of the Sixth symphony and Music of the Spheres was the first Langgaard I ever heard. Tuner,another poster,was saying that he preferred the old Frandsen recording and that it had a superb ending. I had been raving about the Dacapo Music of the Spheres,and about the stunning recording quality;but I did say in my reply that I did feel the Frandsen had a more ominous atmosphere than the new recording.

John,I thought you might be a fan of that show. Indeed,as you probably know,the BBC have stated that it will never be shown ever again on any of their channels;although it is available for download,complete with a content warning!! What canI say? Excellent comedy acting,great scripts. I love the care taken over the sets and Michael Bates was hilarious as the Water Bearer. It brings back memories of sitting on the sofa with my mother and father;who is still alive. Till Death us do Part is another banned show! Alf was a bit of a bigot,though!! Maybe the best place for dvds like this these days is under the floorboards?!! ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 09, 2017, 12:32:49 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 08, 2017, 11:10:18 AM
Yes,I think the Fredman has more atmosphere,really. Also,you're the expert,of course;but I do feel that the approach Walker takes (why am I thinking of Dads Army,now?! ;D) means that when the crisis arrives and all the violence breaks out in the orchestra,it doesn't have quite so much impact. I also wonder,and maybe I'm being like one of those vinyl proponents,that some of those old analogue recordings did have a bit more atmosphere at times. I have no complaints about modern recording technology as such;but some of the recordings around now can be a little too clinical. A bit like the aural equivalent of some old movies you watch. They're so full of that indefinable quality called atmosphere. Now,I'm not intending to get rid of my HD tv anytime soon;but sometimes I do find myself missing that. Everything is so perfect. You can virttually see every blade of grass;but a great movie that doesn't necessarily make. That said,I do accept that some of that is just my age. I do think though,that some of those old Radio 3 'off air' studio recordings of HB symphonies will be the first port of call for Brianites for many years to come;and Fredman's Sixth and Sixteenth,Groves' Eighth and Ninth are going to prove very hard to beat,for a good reason. I think some of those old conductors really did have the edge, Again.it's probably just an age thing;but maybe not?
As to Dausgaard's Langgaard. Please don't tell me that! I only have the whole set!! ;D On the other hand,I was posting on the WAYLTN (What are you listening to now;for the uninitiated here?) and I was saying that the Danacord Lp of the Sixth symphony and Music of the Spheres was the first Langgaard I ever heard. Tuner,another poster,was saying that he preferred the old Frandsen recording and that it had a superb ending. I had been raving about the Dacapo Music of the Spheres,and about the stunning recording quality;but I did say in my reply that I did feel the Frandsen had a more ominous atmosphere than the new recording.

John,I thought you might be a fan of that show. Indeed,as you probably know,the BBC have stated that it will never be shown ever again on any of their channels;although it is available for download,complete with a content warning!! What canI say? Excellent comedy acting,great scripts. I love the care taken over the sets and Michael Bates was hilarious as the Water Bearer. It brings back memories of sitting on the sofa with my mother and father;who is still alive. Till Death us do Part is another banned show! Alf was a bit of a bigot,though!! Maybe the best place for dvds like this these days is under the floorboards?!! ???
Great show. I have the DVD box set. The episode with Bing Crosby is epic. The BBC thought police should be sent to room 101. "Content warning" indeed when most modern comedy is full of offensive bad language. Michael Bates using face make-up to pretend to be an Indian - hang him I say.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 09, 2017, 03:38:11 AM
Indeed! ;D Of course,he was born in India!! Brown make up,or not,he was a brilliant comedy actor. I hadn't seen the show for years;but it was even better than I remembered it. The scripts are also more varied than those of Dads Army. and the best of them are very cleverly worked out.What other British sitcom has episodes set in ruined temples,planes,trains,jungles?!! I only have the first two series at the moment,but I would now place this firmly amongst the best and funniest British 'sitcoms'. The characters are so carefully delineated. I love the way the officers in charge of the unit are portrayed as being so dippy! The Seargent Major is obviously the only one running the unit. Michael Bates' character is comical,but he's also very wily,and probably cleverer than any of the men in charge. And it just is very funny! And yes,the Bing Crosby episode? If it's the one I think you mean. Solly's impersonation of Bing Crosby at the end with Gloria hiding from the admiring eyes of the tribesmen is a classic.

Anyway,back to Brian! We'll need an IAHHM thread,at this rate! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2017, 03:46:41 AM
Brian had a sense of humour. He admired Buster Keaton, for instance. So talking about sitcoms isn't too off-topic. Dutch tv always showed and shows British comedy. You Rang M'Lord is another favourite of mine...


Back to Brian!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 09, 2017, 08:49:00 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2017, 03:46:41 AM
Brian had a sense of humour. He admired Buster Keaton, for instance. So talking about sitcoms isn't too off-topic. Dutch tv always showed and shows British comedy. You Rang M'Lord is another favourite of mine...


Back to Brian!

I hope that includes this sketch - one of my favourites:

https://youtu.be/IRfluaMKoOY

Back on topic, Klassic Haus sent me today the covers of HB's 3rd, 8th and 14th notes now with Johan's excellent booklet note - I can sleep easily tonight.
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2017, 08:59:13 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 09, 2017, 08:49:00 AM
I hope that includes this sketch - one of my favourites:

https://youtu.be/IRfluaMKoOY (https://youtu.be/IRfluaMKoOY)

Back on topic, Klassic Haus sent me today the covers of HB's 3rd, 8th and 14th notes now with Johan's excellent booklet note - I can sleep easily tonight.
:)


I know that sketch very well. I even recommend it to people if they want to know what a native Amsterdammer sounds like when he speaks English... Paul Whitehouse has an impeccable ear. Brilliant.


All's well, then!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 09, 2017, 10:30:37 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 09, 2017, 08:59:13 AM

I know that sketch very well. I even recommend it to people if they want to know what a native Amsterdammer sounds like when he speaks English... Paul Whitehouse has an impeccable ear. Brilliant.


All's well, then!

OT

I think that it's a very affectionate sketch too and a happy reminder for me of our famous meeting in Leiden when my daughter was 'studying' at Leiden University for a year.
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2017, 08:34:00 AM
I just posted this in the "What are you listening to now?" thread.

I'm listening to Havergal Brian's third symphony. This ambitious symphony from 1931-32 incorporates a part for two pianos. The orchestration is Brian at his most imaginative,bringing all kinds of fantastic images to mind. It has been described as Brucknerian,but to me,the only connection is in scale. The pianos weave in and out of parts of the symphony sounding (at times) for all the world as if it has been gatecrashed by a grand,romantic piano concerto;but disappear from the score later. There is no other British symphony remotedly like it from that era.
The artwork pictured here is for the only available truly commercial recording. I'm listening to Klassik Haus' remastering of the 1974 premiere recording and performance with Ronald Stevenson & David Wilde playing the pianos and the New Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Stanley Pope,which is far superior in terms of the actual performance and sound quality. This is my favourite Brian symphony.

(http://i.imgur.com/P4HhYYa.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2017, 08:38:53 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 09, 2017, 10:30:37 AM
OT

I think that it's a very affectionate sketch too and a happy reminder for me of our famous meeting in Leiden when my daughter was 'studying' at Leiden University for a year.
:)


I treasure the memory, Jeffrey!


Quote from: cilgwyn on May 10, 2017, 08:34:00 AM
I just posted this in the "What are you listening to now?" thread.

I'm listening to Havergal Brian's third symphony. This ambitious symphony from 1931-32 incorporates a part for two pianos. The orchestration is Brian at his most imaginative,bringing all kinds of fantastic images to mind. It has been described as Brucknerian,but to me,the only connection is in scale. The pianos weave in and out of parts of the symphony sounding (at times) for all the world as if it has been gatecrashed by a grand,romantic piano concerto;but disappear from the score later. There is no other British symphony remotedly like it from that era.
The artwork pictured here is for the only available truly commercial recording. I'm listening to Klassik Haus' remastering of the 1974 premiere recording and performance with Ronald Stevenson & David Wilde playing the pianos and the New Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Stanley Pope,which is far superior in terms of the actual performance and sound quality. This is my favourite Brian symphony.


I also love this symphony so much, I bought the very expensive facsimile score...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2017, 12:58:16 PM
You've got one up on me there! :)
Regarding my post. It's all to easy to go over the top about a less well known,or underrated score;but I really can't think of a British score of the time on such an ambitious scale that uses two pianos like that. It's almost like a concerto in some places. There are other symphonies,of course,that use pianos as part of the score,of course. I was playing one only the other day. Langgaard's gorgeously romantic third symphony. But it uses the piano in a totally different way. Martinu uses pianos,but he uses them as part of the orchestra,itself. The Turangalila has a prominent part for piano, ( I haven't heard it in years) but again there is no other similarity. I keep thinking this has got to be one of Brian's most original works in this respect. Perhaps if he had an exotic foreign name it would get more attention than it does? It would certainly look great in concert,with those pianos. A Prom one day,perhaps? (Well,who would have thought they'd do the Gothic?!)
The Klassik Haus remastering of the Aries Lp is fantastic. The sound really opens up.

NB: I seem to remember you have seen it in concert,Johan?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 10, 2017, 01:14:52 PM
I've made these points before,I know;but I just felt a need to reiterate them after making that post. I really can't think of anything quite like this particular symphony. Certainly not from Britain in that period of the twentieth century. It desperately needs a new recording;but the Pope is so good it would be great if Testament or Lyrita would issue a remaster. I wonder if Richard Itter recorded it? The wider public need access to a really first class performance of one of his most powerful and original scores!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2017, 01:21:04 PM
I saw an amateur performance of the Third on 17 May 1987, a few weeks after being in Liverpool for the Seventh... That's almost exactly 30 years ago. John Pickard helped out in the percussion section!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 10, 2017, 01:38:27 PM
I've just been listening to the 9th. I have no idea why it isn't more popular because it's perfectly understandable on first hearing as a fast-slow-fast symphony with a turbulent first movement, a deeply lyrical slow movement and a triumphant finale.

I think if you have a very unconventional composer the works that get noticed first by people who aren't enthusiasts are the ones that have similarities with other composers' works... in this case structurally.

Come on Classic FM, you can play the slow movement as a 'swoon'.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2017, 01:47:41 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 10, 2017, 01:38:27 PM
I've just been listening to the 9th. I have no idea why it isn't more popular because it's perfectly understandable on first hearing as a fast-slow-fast symphony with a turbulent first movement, a deeply lyrical slow movement and a triumphant finale.

I think if you have a very unconventional composer the works that get noticed first by people who aren't enthusiasts are the ones that have similarities with other composers' works... in this case structurally.

Come on Classic FM, you can play the slow movement as a 'swoon'.


The 8th and the 9th were the first Brian symphonies I ever heard, in 1978. The 8th spoke immediately, but the first movement of the 9th proved to be more difficult. The middle and final movements were easy. Yes, this could be an excellent Prom piece!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2017, 02:04:13 PM
I like No.9 too. I have a historic Dutton recording as well as the fine Groves version coupled with No.8:
[asin]B003YUWGIM[/asin]
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2017, 03:37:19 PM
Listening to the Third and reading along in the score, I just finished the third movement. Brian dates it: 'Friday April 22 1932', which is on the eve of my mother's birth on the 23rd.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2017, 03:41:55 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2017, 01:47:41 PM

The 8th and the 9th were the first Brian symphonies I ever heard, in 1978. The 8th spoke immediately, but the first movement of the 9th proved to be more difficult. The middle and final movements were easy. Yes, this could be an excellent Prom piece!


A P.S. to my own post. The HBS webmaster and editor of the Newsletter Martyn Becker reminded me of the fact that, of course, No. 9 was played during the 1976 Proms, with the same forces and the same conductor as on the later EMI recording - the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra under Sir Charles Groves...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2017, 09:51:07 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2017, 03:41:55 PM

A P.S. to my own post. The HBS webmaster and editor of the Newsletter Martyn Becker reminded me of the fact that, of course, No. 9 was played during the 1976 Proms, with the same forces and the same conductor as on the later EMI recording - the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra under Sir Charles Groves...

Sorry I missed that one. Maybe before I knew HB's music. Still I was there for the Ole Schmidt 'Gothic' whenever that was. I was asked if I liked HB's music by the eccentric Principal of the first school I taught at during my interview there in 1978. Probably got me the job.

I like the sound of Schmidt's Aarhus parties:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/culture-obituaries/music-obituaries/7533120/Ole-Schmidt.html
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2017, 10:33:07 PM
The Schmidt 'Gothic' was in 1980.


Read the obituary. A 'three-hour' 'Gothic'?! I don't party, but I do like the idea of him improvising the accompaniment to a Chaplin movie!

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 10, 2017, 11:24:02 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2017, 10:33:07 PM
The Schmidt 'Gothic' was in 1980.


Read the obituary. A 'three-hour' 'Gothic'?! I don't party, but I do like the idea of him improvising the accompaniment to a Chaplin movie!

That's what I meant too.
Yes, 1980 - thanks Johan.
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on May 11, 2017, 03:10:09 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 10, 2017, 08:34:00 AM
I just posted this in the "What are you listening to now?" thread.

I'm listening to Havergal Brian's third symphony. This ambitious symphony from 1931-32 incorporates a part for two pianos. The orchestration is Brian at his most imaginative,bringing all kinds of fantastic images to mind. It has been described as Brucknerian,but to me,the only connection is in scale. The pianos weave in and out of parts of the symphony sounding (at times) for all the world as if it has been gatecrashed by a grand,romantic piano concerto;but disappear from the score later. There is no other British symphony remotedly like it from that era.
The artwork pictured here is for the only available truly commercial recording. I'm listening to Klassik Haus' remastering of the 1974 premiere recording and performance with Ronald Stevenson & David Wilde playing the pianos and the New Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Stanley Pope,which is far superior in terms of the actual performance and sound quality. This is my favourite Brian symphony.

(http://i.imgur.com/P4HhYYa.jpg)
Here's the Klassic Haus sleeve
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on July 13, 2017, 04:12:15 PM
Just getting caught up on this thread after a couple of years away - some 30 pages have come and gone since I last visited. I've been going through the Brian symphonies I have on CD once again - plus the off-air recording of #26 (courtesy of Johan, many thanks!). Once again enjoying their many surprising twists and turns, elaborate and sometimes manic counterpoint, darkly plodding marches, and often meltingly lyrical passages that just as easily give way to violent outbursts. What a composer! I put him easily on the same level as my longtime favorite 20th century composer (see my avatar), and in some ways I find Brian more interesting as he was still exploring new territory at an age when H. had found his final style.

It's hard to pick any favorites, partly because they all contain wonderful things, but also because I knew several of them before I started exploring the rest in 2015. I was just bowled over by #30 today and will have to give it another listen later tonight. But the 3rd remains my overall favorite, followed (in chronological order, not order of preference) by at least the Gothic, #8, #16, #18, #22, #25, and, I think, #30. I also have a soft spot for both #11 and #20. I've yet to hear #14 and #21 but hope to rectify that deficit soon.

A few days ago I ordered the new Dutton release of #2 and #14 from Amazon, and received an email yesterday saying it's been dispatched from Dutton and should arrive sometime around the 28th of this month. I'm also eagerly awaiting the announced release of #8, #21, #26 on Naxos (?) to complete the set. A lot to look forward to!

I hope everyone's summer (for those in the Northern Hemisphere) is going swimmingly!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 13, 2017, 10:53:58 PM
Quote from: krummholz on July 13, 2017, 04:12:15 PM
Just getting caught up on this thread after a couple of years away - some 30 pages have come and gone since I last visited. I've been going through the Brian symphonies I have on CD once again - plus the off-air recording of #26 (courtesy of Johan, many thanks!). Once again enjoying their many surprising twists and turns, elaborate and sometimes manic counterpoint, darkly plodding marches, and often meltingly lyrical passages that just as easily give way to violent outbursts. What a composer! I put him easily on the same level as my longtime favorite 20th century composer (see my avatar), and in some ways I find Brian more interesting as he was still exploring new territory at an age when H. had found his final style.

It's hard to pick any favorites, partly because they all contain wonderful things, but also because I knew several of them before I started exploring the rest in 2015. I was just bowled over by #30 today and will have to give it another listen later tonight. But the 3rd remains my overall favorite, followed (in chronological order, not order of preference) by at least the Gothic, #8, #16, #18, #22, #25, and, I think, #30. I also have a soft spot for both #11 and #20. I've yet to hear #14 and #21 but hope to rectify that deficit soon.

A few days ago I ordered the new Dutton release of #2 and #14 from Amazon, and received an email yesterday saying it's been dispatched from Dutton and should arrive sometime around the 28th of this month. I'm also eagerly awaiting the announced release of #8, #21, #26 on Naxos (?) to complete the set. A lot to look forward to!

I hope everyone's summer (for those in the Northern Hemisphere) is going swimmingly!
Thank you! Welcome back. Do you know the Klassic Haus release of Symphony 3 - in some ways better than the Hypetion release? Good news about Naxos releasing No.8; that one is my favourite I think - although I also like 1-3, 6-11, 16 and 22 'Brevis'.
Charles Groves's pioneering recording of symphonies 8 and 9 features (complete with original cover image profile photo  of the composer) in the Charles Groves box set (see Frank Bridge thread).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 14, 2017, 05:51:59 AM
I totally agree with vandermolen regarding the earlier performance of the third symphony. The Klassik Haus release is excellent and very good value for money. If you like the Hyperion recording you will love the score even more when you hear Pope's.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on July 14, 2017, 07:04:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on July 13, 2017, 10:53:58 PM
Thank you! Welcome back. Do you know the Klassic Haus release of Symphony 3 - in some ways better than the Hypetion release? Good news about Naxos releasing No.8; that one is my favourite I think - although I also like 1-3, 6-11, 16 and 22 'Brevis'.
Charles Groves's pioneering recording of symphonies 8 and 9 features (complete with original cover image profile photo  of the composer) in the Charles Groves box set (see Frank Bridge thread).

Thanks for the welcome back, and no I do not! Their US website says they specialize in restorations - of old recordings I assume. Just how old is this one? How good is the sound? (Google says Stanley Pope died in 1995, but most recordings post 1970 or so are at least good analog...) Would very much like to hear an alternative reading of #3, and the price is not bad at all...

Re: the upcoming Naxos release of 8/21/26, I don't recall seeing the name of the orchestra and conductor posted here (maybe I missed it?), so for the record, it's Alexander Walker and the Noviya Rossiya Symphony Orchestra. I've very much enjoyed Walker's readings of 22-24 and 6/28/29/31 so am really looking forward to this one. The Naxos page on the release was last updated last September and optimistically suggests early 2017 for availability. Obviously that's come and gone... I've seen October posted here, hopefully that comes to pass!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 14, 2017, 07:46:39 AM
Quote from: krummholz on July 14, 2017, 07:04:29 AM
Just how old is this one? How good is the sound?

Pope's Third was recorded 12 Jan 1974. The sound is good broadcast quality.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 14, 2017, 09:19:35 AM
Welcome back, Krummholz! Glad to hear you're exploring the Brianic oeuvre with pleasure. As for the Klassic Haus release of the Third, I also can vouch for the sound quality. And Pope's interpretation is, to these ever older ears, still unbeaten.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 16, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
Quote from: krummholz on July 14, 2017, 07:04:29 AM
Thanks for the welcome back, and no I do not! Their US website says they specialize in restorations - of old recordings I assume. Just how old is this one? How good is the sound? (Google says Stanley Pope died in 1995, but most recordings post 1970 or so are at least good analog...) Would very much like to hear an alternative reading of #3, and the price is not bad at all...

Re: the upcoming Naxos release of 8/21/26, I don't recall seeing the name of the orchestra and conductor posted here (maybe I missed it?), so for the record, it's Alexander Walker and the Noviya Rossiya Symphony Orchestra. I've very much enjoyed Walker's readings of 22-24 and 6/28/29/31 so am really looking forward to this one. The Naxos page on the release was last updated last September and optimistically suggests early 2017 for availability. Obviously that's come and gone... I've seen October posted here, hopefully that comes to pass!
I've just given the Pope 3rd a spin. Great performance. The sound is stereo, good separation, very open, decent broadcast quality analogue. You don't have to "listen through it" so to speak. Don't expect spanking new digital quality though!! It's the best of the Klassic Haus Brian series in my opinion. I have them all, due to my involvement with them, but my comments about Pope's 3rd are, I hope, without any bias. Give it a try. The downloads are more than good enough so no need for the CD.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 16, 2017, 12:32:01 AM
Quote from: krummholz on July 13, 2017, 04:12:15 PM
Just getting caught up on this thread after a couple of years away - some 30 pages have come and gone since I last visited. I've been going through the Brian symphonies I have on CD once again - plus the off-air recording of #26 (courtesy of Johan, many thanks!). Once again enjoying their many surprising twists and turns, elaborate and sometimes manic counterpoint, darkly plodding marches, and often meltingly lyrical passages that just as easily give way to violent outbursts. What a composer! I put him easily on the same level as my longtime favorite 20th century composer (see my avatar), and in some ways I find Brian more interesting as he was still exploring new territory at an age when H. had found his final style.

It's hard to pick any favorites, partly because they all contain wonderful things, but also because I knew several of them before I started exploring the rest in 2015. I was just bowled over by #30 today and will have to give it another listen later tonight. But the 3rd remains my overall favorite, followed (in chronological order, not order of preference) by at least the Gothic, #8, #16, #18, #22, #25, and, I think, #30. I also have a soft spot for both #11 and #20. I've yet to hear #14 and #21 but hope to rectify that deficit soon.

A few days ago I ordered the new Dutton release of #2 and #14 from Amazon, and received an email yesterday saying it's been dispatched from Dutton and should arrive sometime around the 28th of this month. I'm also eagerly awaiting the announced release of #8, #21, #26 on Naxos (?) to complete the set. A lot to look forward to!

I hope everyone's summer (for those in the Northern Hemisphere) is going swimmingly!
I admit my complete bias here but don't forget this version of 21:
http://www.heritage-records.com/classical-orchestral-cd-album-titles/havergal-brian-the-first-commercial-recordings
Worth the investment just for the stunning version of No.10 to be honest.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on July 17, 2017, 08:03:55 AM
I have some Brian recording news.  A friend of mine in the ENO orchestra tells me they recently recorded a CD of Brian for Dutton with Martyn Brabbins.  The works were The Vision of Cleopatra, two choral pieces on Herrick poems, For Valour and Fantastic Variations.  He thinks it went quite well.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 17, 2017, 08:06:36 AM
So, that recording is safely in the can, then. Excellent! Thanks for the news.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 17, 2017, 10:03:55 PM
Quote from: John Whitmore on July 16, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
I've just given the Pope 3rd a spin. Great performance. The sound is stereo, good separation, very open, decent broadcast quality analogue. You don't have to "listen through it" so to speak. Don't expect spanking new digital quality though!! It's the best of the Klassic Haus Brian series in my opinion. I have them all, due to my involvement with them, but my comments about Pope's 3rd are, I hope, without any bias. Give it a try. The downloads are more than good enough so no need for the CD.
I bought another copy for an HB admiring friend who also found it excellent. Thank you for your involvement with the project.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on July 18, 2017, 09:10:48 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on July 16, 2017, 12:26:33 AM
I've just given the Pope 3rd a spin. Great performance. The sound is stereo, good separation, very open, decent broadcast quality analogue. You don't have to "listen through it" so to speak. Don't expect spanking new digital quality though!! It's the best of the Klassic Haus Brian series in my opinion. I have them all, due to my involvement with them, but my comments about Pope's 3rd are, I hope, without any bias. Give it a try. The downloads are more than good enough so no need for the CD.

I'm sure the download is fine, but all I have on my computer is small, low-fidelity speakers and no way to burn a CD. I ordered the CD - shipping was free! Have no idea how long it will take to arrive; I don't know where they ship from, or even if they have an outlet in the US, though my guess is they do given the free shipping.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 18, 2017, 10:15:25 PM
I agree that the Pope Third is a very good recording, especially as restored by Klassichaus.*

Listening to this recently I strayed next into Mackerras' recording of the Second (also on KH) , and then I was reminded of a recent comment on the Art-Music Forum where the two official recordings of the 2nd were being discussed (the Stowe and the Brabbins). The Stowe recording was being dissed as usual, but this commentor noted that in the Stowe recording various orchestral details were easier to hear. I haven't re-listened to Stowe, but I did compare Mackerras and Brabbins and the comment holds for these too: in the Mackerras many of the 'signposts' that MacDonald refers to are audible and in Brabbins they are not, ie in an orchestral tutti the fact that there are piano chords. I wonder is this because Brabbins' recording is unbalanced, or the acoustics of the recording location makes detail disappear. It is certainly noticeable.

*Thinking of the Third I was reminded of the Hyperion recording by Friend. Whatever its merits it had the usual silly track divisions from Hyperion at that period where instead of simply the dividing the piece by movements they would try to cue analysis points using the tracks (ie Track 1 Introduction, Track 2 first subject &c) (obviously this obscures the relative lengths of the movements and could much more easily done by writing the timings in the CD booklet, ie 'at 2:05 the first subject begins...'&c). For the Third the final track was the Epilogue to the fourth movement, all four bars of it c. 25 seconds! LOL
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 19, 2017, 01:03:50 AM
'ie in an orchestral tutti....'

Meant eg of course, there are other examples.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on July 19, 2017, 12:34:45 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 18, 2017, 10:15:25 PM
Listening to this recently I strayed next into Mackerras' recording of the Second (also on KH) , and then I was reminded of a recent comment on the Art-Music
*Thinking of the Third I was reminded of the Hyperion recording by Friend. Whatever its merits it had the usual silly track divisions from Hyperion at that period where instead of simply the dividing the piece by movements they would try to cue analysis points using the tracks (ie Track 1 Introduction, Track 2 first subject &c) (obviously this obscures the relative lengths of the movements and could much more easily done by writing the timings in the CD booklet, ie 'at 2:05 the first subject begins...'&c). For the Third the final track was the Epilogue to the fourth movement, all four bars of it c. 25 seconds! LOL

I've never understood that. Naxos are guilty of it too, in most of their Brian symphony recordings. For example, to listen to Symphony No. 25, I have to skip to track 20 to start it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on July 20, 2017, 12:54:22 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on July 19, 2017, 12:34:45 PM
I've never understood that. Naxos are guilty of it too, in most of their Brian symphony recordings. For example, to listen to Symphony No. 25, I have to skip to track 20 to start it.

I've noticed that too (in Naxos), and find it VERY annoying for the most part. One exception is in the Gothic, where I found it somewhat helpful to follow the descriptions in the booklet in the choral part (and the sung text, where the words were often difficult to make out) when I was just getting to know the work. But it's completely unhelpful now and overall, yes, they really should just have stuck to one track per movement.

Well I got a "just shipped" notice on my order from Klassic Haus a couple of days ago but the USPS tracking number was invalid. Tried today and it is apparently enroute from Oklahoma City as of this morning, so I should be seeing it in a few days. Looking forward to it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on July 23, 2017, 12:22:36 PM
Indeed! Very annoying,having to program in a multitude of tracks too;if you want to hear just one work. Also,the momentary 'breaks' in the sound,if the music is continuous,if you've used the 'program' button. Maybe,more expensive players than mine,can deal with this. Either way,I just don't find this kind of tracking helpful in an orchestral work. They must think we're a bit stupid if they think we need that kind of help!! >:( ;D

Anyway,that aside! I listened to the Charles Groves performance of the Gothic Symphony last night. The sound is not exactly hi-fi ;D,but your ears soon adjust. At least mine did;and I found I could hear all the necessary detail. I must say,I really enjoyed this performance. I hadn't really given it that much attention before. It made me wish Groves had been able to conduct the whole work. It also made me realise how well the first three movements can work on their own!

A question,now,about the Groves performance. Was this performance ever broadcast on the radio? If not,I wonder what the origination of this off-air tape is? Was it a private recording?
I will look at the HB website as soon as I have the time.

I also,compared the Klassic Haus reissue of the third symphony with Dundonnell's off-air tape. Thank you Dundonnell (not that he's here any more) for providing me with my first listen to the Pope recording,since my original tape finally got chewed up by an errant tape recorder. The sound really does open up in the Klassic Haus restoration. The thunderous closing moments of the finale,a case in point. I kept the cd-r of Dundonnell's off-air tape recording as a memento,by the way!!
On a less happy note ;D,I remember after downloading the Klassic Haus restoration of the third,saying that I bet I find out that I've got it already. Sure enough,it finally turned up,yesterday evening. There it was,on the cd-r I made much earlier! Klassic Haus! I'd written it on the cd-r. Oh well ,the more downloads of HB they get the better. Memo: Must look harder next time before opening up my wallet!! ::) ;D

Another Klassic Haus recording I listened to was their issue of Brian Rayner Cook's Wine of Summer. I can hear what Albion means about his singing. Brian Rayner Cooke isn't usually one of my favourite singers (not that I dislike his singing,especially) but listening to this performance reminded me of just how good this performance is. Brian Rayner Cook really does have a special understanding of this music;and I really wouldn't want to be without it. It is a magnificent performance,imho. I hope the recording is given a commercial cd release one day. I'm sure it will be,eventually. I'm just glad we've got this Klassic Haus restoration,and the Dutton recording is so good! I might add that his recording of the songs is equally superb. The Mark Stone recordings were very disappointing. On a more positive note,the the accompanying booklet (I only bought the first cd) was very good. I kept it for all the detailed information it provides about the songs and their authors. I seem to remember Brian's landlord being amongst them,and a story,along the lines that he was so pleased that he let Brian stay rent free,or lowered the rent?!!

I have the Poole recording of Das Siegeslied on at the moment. Again,it sounds absolutely stunning in the Klassik Haus resoration. I hate to say this John. But I am actually enjoying this work! Poole's performance really gets under the skin of this music. The second movement is particularly magnificent;bringing out all the sinister opulence.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on July 25, 2017, 09:50:17 AM
My Dutton Brabbins 2/14 CD arrived today! Will be listening to at least #2 later... when I have an hour to spare.

For now, just to report that my order of the Klassic Haus 3rd was lost! :( USPS tracking listed it as delivered to my mailbox on Saturday morning, but I distinctly recall having checked my box on Saturday and it was not there. Today I followed through all possible leads, including the Post Office which had a GPS locator record of it being scanned in front of my house at the time given on the tracking record. Very strange!

So I sent off an email to Klassic Haus, and wonder of wonders, a very nice gentleman named Curt Timmons answered within 2 hours and promised to send off another copy by Priority Mail! :)

So it looks like I will receive it (hopefully) by early next week. But I do have to put in a plug for the customer service at Klassic Haus, which is truly outstanding!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 28, 2017, 07:32:30 AM
Quote from: krummholz on July 18, 2017, 09:10:48 AM
I'm sure the download is fine, but all I have on my computer is small, low-fidelity speakers and no way to burn a CD. I ordered the CD - shipping was free! Have no idea how long it will take to arrive; I don't know where they ship from, or even if they have an outlet in the US, though my guess is they do given the free shipping.
Curt Timmons will be shipping from his home in Oklahoma.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 28, 2017, 07:37:22 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 23, 2017, 12:22:36 PM
Indeed! Very annoying,having to program in a multitude of tracks too;if you want to hear just one work. Also,the momentary 'breaks' in the sound,if the music is continuous,if you've used the 'program' button. Maybe,more expensive players than mine,can deal with this. Either way,I just don't find this kind of tracking helpful in an orchestral work. They must think we're a bit stupid if they think we need that kind of help!! >:( ;D

Anyway,that aside! I listened to the Charles Groves performance of the Gothic Symphony last night. The sound is not exactly hi-fi ;D,but your ears soon adjust. At least mine did;and I found I could hear all the necessary detail. I must say,I really enjoyed this performance. I hadn't really given it that much attention before. It made me wish Groves had been able to conduct the whole work. It also made me realise how well the first three movements can work on their own!

A question,now,about the Groves performance. Was this performance ever broadcast on the radio? If not,I wonder what the origination of this off-air tape is? Was it a private recording?
I will look at the HB website as soon as I have the time.

I also,compared the Klassic Haus reissue of the third symphony with Dundonnell's off-air tape. Thank you Dundonnell (not that he's here any more) for providing me with my first listen to the Pope recording,since my original tape finally got chewed up by an errant tape recorder. The sound really does open up in the Klassic Haus restoration. The thunderous closing moments of the finale,a case in point. I kept the cd-r of Dundonnell's off-air tape recording as a memento,by the way!!
On a less happy note ;D,I remember after downloading the Klassic Haus restoration of the third,saying that I bet I find out that I've got it already. Sure enough,it finally turned up,yesterday evening. There it was,on the cd-r I made much earlier! Klassic Haus! I'd written it on the cd-r. Oh well ,the more downloads of HB they get the better. Memo: Must look harder next time before opening up my wallet!! ::) ;D

Another Klassic Haus recording I listened to was their issue of Brian Rayner Cook's Wine of Summer. I can hear what Albion means about his singing. Brian Rayner Cooke isn't usually one of my favourite singers (not that I dislike his singing,especially) but listening to this performance reminded me of just how good this performance is. Brian Rayner Cook really does have a special understanding of this music;and I really wouldn't want to be without it. It is a magnificent performance,imho. I hope the recording is given a commercial cd release one day. I'm sure it will be,eventually. I'm just glad we've got this Klassic Haus restoration,and the Dutton recording is so good! I might add that his recording of the songs is equally superb. The Mark Stone recordings were very disappointing. On a more positive note,the the accompanying booklet (I only bought the first cd) was very good. I kept it for all the detailed information it provides about the songs and their authors. I seem to remember Brian's landlord being amongst them,and a story,along the lines that he was so pleased that he let Brian stay rent free,or lowered the rent?!!

I have the Poole recording of Das Siegeslied on at the moment. Again,it sounds absolutely stunning in the Klassik Haus resoration. I hate to say this John. But I am actually enjoying this work! Poole's performance really gets under the skin of this music. The second movement is particularly magnificent;bringing out all the sinister opulence.
Have you been to see your doctor? Very worrying turn of events.....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 28, 2017, 07:42:01 AM
Quote from: krummholz on July 25, 2017, 09:50:17 AM
My Dutton Brabbins 2/14 CD arrived today! Will be listening to at least #2 later... when I have an hour to spare.

For now, just to report that my order of the Klassic Haus 3rd was lost! :( USPS tracking listed it as delivered to my mailbox on Saturday morning, but I distinctly recall having checked my box on Saturday and it was not there. Today I followed through all possible leads, including the Post Office which had a GPS locator record of it being scanned in front of my house at the time given on the tracking record. Very strange!

So I sent off an email to Klassic Haus, and wonder of wonders, a very nice gentleman named Curt Timmons answered within 2 hours and promised to send off another copy by Priority Mail! :)

So it looks like I will receive it (hopefully) by early next week. But I do have to put in a plug for the customer service at Klassic Haus, which is truly outstanding!
Curt Timmons is Klassik Haus. He's a one man band (so to speak!).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on July 29, 2017, 11:04:13 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on July 28, 2017, 07:42:01 AM
Curt Timmons is Klassik Haus. He's a one man band (so to speak!).
Ha! Good to know!

So I've only listened once to the Brabbins #2 and so won't comment much on it, since I've only known the Rowe version and not so well - I found the work so opaque in Rowe's hands that I rarely listened to it. I will say that I had a much more positive impression after listening to the Brabbins - the second movement in particular sounds much more coherent to me now, and the "battle scherzo" really roars! I will try to listen to both versions in the coming days to compare, but that might have to wait - work is taking up much of my time.

My Pope 3rd came from KH (aka Mr. Timmons) yesterday - it was clearly the first shipment, mysteriously placed by someone in my mailbox, a week late with no note to explain what happened. I will have to return the second package to KH when it arrives. But of course I listened to it right away. I know the 3rd quite well in the Friend reading on Hyperion so had definite impressions of the differences in the two interpretations. I was impressed straight off by the opening; under Pope there is more of a rocking feeling to the "habanera" and the bite of the brass really comes through. There were some places where I felt the ensemble was about to fall apart - in particular the cross-rhythms in the passage leading up to the recapitulation sounded muddied and unintelligible to me on first hearing. Overall I like Pope's approach better than Friend's in this movement. He keeps the tension high and forward momentum going much better; the development section, especially, sounds more episodic in the Friend.

I agree with cilgwyn about the "sinister opulence" that comes through in the 2nd movement! Quite different from Friend, again less episodic-feeling, with more continuity overall. This is such a fantastic movement, Brian at his most evocative and imaginative! But again, in places the textures seem so dense in the Pope that I found it hard to relate the many lines to each other musically. This is a feeling I don't get from the Friend.

In the scherzo the two readings seem to converge, so not much to say. (As an aside, every time I hear that first theme, I'm reminded of the corresponding theme in Brahms' 4th for some reason. I don't know if Brian had that idea in the back of his mind when he wrote it, or if I'm just spouting rubbish.)

I like Pope's finale as well - again he shapes the music better than Friend does IMO, and makes the final triumph sound almost inevitable, seemingly a hard thing to bring off. Again there were places though where I had trouble making musical sense of the textures, something that has never been a problem for me listening to Friend.

They are both great readings and I like them both! I think I have a slight preference for Friend still, but that might be just "imprinting" and I may grow into the Pope with time. One comment about the sound: listening through headphones I could detect many small dropouts in different frequency ranges throughout the recording, and even a touch of distortion in a few places (though that might have been in my equipment). I'm pretty sure the dropouts would not be noticeable through speakers. Still quite a wonderful performance to have available in decent sound after all these years.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on July 29, 2017, 11:49:46 PM
Quote from: krummholz on July 29, 2017, 11:04:13 AM
Ha! Good to know!

So I've only listened once to the Brabbins #2 and so won't comment much on it, since I've only known the Rowe version and not so well - I found the work so opaque in Rowe's hands that I rarely listened to it. I will say that I had a much more positive impression after listening to the Brabbins - the second movement in particular sounds much more coherent to me now, and the "battle scherzo" really roars! I will try to listen to both versions in the coming days to compare, but that might have to wait - work is taking up much of my time.

My Pope 3rd came from KH (aka Mr. Timmons) yesterday - it was clearly the first shipment, mysteriously placed by someone in my mailbox, a week late with no note to explain what happened. I will have to return the second package to KH when it arrives. But of course I listened to it right away. I know the 3rd quite well in the Friend reading on Hyperion so had definite impressions of the differences in the two interpretations. I was impressed straight off by the opening; under Pope there is more of a rocking feeling to the "habanera" and the bite of the brass really comes through. There were some places where I felt the ensemble was about to fall apart - in particular the cross-rhythms in the passage leading up to the recapitulation sounded muddied and unintelligible to me on first hearing. Overall I like Pope's approach better than Friend's in this movement. He keeps the tension high and forward momentum going much better; the development section, especially, sounds more episodic in the Friend.

I agree with cilgwyn about the "sinister opulence" that comes through in the 2nd movement! Quite different from Friend, again less episodic-feeling, with more continuity overall. This is such a fantastic movement, Brian at his most evocative and imaginative! But again, in places the textures seem so dense in the Pope that I found it hard to relate the many lines to each other musically. This is a feeling I don't get from the Friend.

In the scherzo the two readings seem to converge, so not much to say. (As an aside, every time I hear that first theme, I'm reminded of the corresponding theme in Brahms' 4th for some reason. I don't know if Brian had that idea in the back of his mind when he wrote it, or if I'm just spouting rubbish.)

I like Pope's finale as well - again he shapes the music better than Friend does IMO, and makes the final triumph sound almost inevitable, seemingly a hard thing to bring off. Again there were places though where I had trouble making musical sense of the textures, something that has never been a problem for me listening to Friend.

They are both great readings and I like them both! I think I have a slight preference for Friend still, but that might be just "imprinting" and I may grow into the Pope with time. One comment about the sound: listening through headphones I could detect many small dropouts in different frequency ranges throughout the recording, and even a touch of distortion in a few places (though that might have been in my equipment). I'm pretty sure the dropouts would not be noticeable through speakers. Still quite a wonderful performance to have available in decent sound after all these years.
Bear in mind that this transfer is taken from a shoddy bootleg LP by Aries that uses an off the air recording. The restoration has many flaws and dropouts but that's unavoidable I'm afraid. Every time a click or pop is removed the sound is affected. There are also some changes in tape hiss here and there, all down to the source material. Maybe one day the BBC will release the original tapes onto CD but I wouldn't hold your breath in anticipation. There is nothing wrong with your equipment - it's the CD, warts and all. I prefer Pope to Friend overall in terms of musicality but Friend is less sloppy. He had the benefit of multiple takes compared to a one off performance on the radio. Glad you like it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 01, 2017, 04:13:32 AM
I just came across this.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on August 03, 2017, 01:16:48 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on July 23, 2017, 12:22:36 PM
I have the Poole recording of Das Siegeslied on at the moment. Again,it sounds absolutely stunning in the Klassik Haus resoration. I hate to say this John. But I am actually enjoying this work! Poole's performance really gets under the skin of this music. The second movement is particularly magnificent;bringing out all the sinister opulence.

Thanks for that heads-up.  Just downloaded it for £3.94 at today's rate (MP3 - didn't think it was worth getting the FLAC).  Das Siegeslied sounds absolutely tremendous.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 04, 2017, 05:11:33 AM
Quote from: DaveF on August 03, 2017, 01:16:48 PM
Thanks for that heads-up.  Just downloaded it for £3.94 at today's rate (MP3 - didn't think it was worth getting the FLAC).  Das Siegeslied sounds absolutely tremendous.
I love that pic of Carl Nielsen, Dave F!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on August 04, 2017, 11:45:14 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on August 04, 2017, 05:11:33 AM
I love that pic of Carl Nielsen, Dave F!!

Taken, as I'm sure you know, from the so-called Klovneark or "Clown sheet":
(http://carlnielsentrio.dk/images/klovnearket.jpg)

one of the few pictures I know of a composer being really really silly, although the one at the head of this page:
http://www.hindemith.info/fr/leben-werk/unbekannter-hindemith/ (http://www.hindemith.info/fr/leben-werk/unbekannter-hindemith/)
runs it close and may furnish me with a future avatar.  Do we have a thread for funny pictures of composers?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on August 05, 2017, 12:46:32 AM
Quote from: DaveF on August 04, 2017, 11:45:14 AM
Taken, as I'm sure you know, from the so-called Klovneark or "Clown sheet":
(http://carlnielsentrio.dk/images/klovnearket.jpg)

one of the few pictures I know of a composer being really really silly, although the one at the head of this page:
http://www.hindemith.info/fr/leben-werk/unbekannter-hindemith/ (http://www.hindemith.info/fr/leben-werk/unbekannter-hindemith/)
runs it close and may furnish me with a future avatar.  Do we have a thread for funny pictures of composers?
My favourite composer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 09, 2017, 05:41:38 AM
Posting about the Nordic feel of some of Daniel Jones' earlier symphonies,and some affinities shared by Brian and Jones (Daniel not Corporal! ;D) ie,the cragginess,alleviated by a certain lyricism and a flair for colourful orchestration;got me thinking again,about european influences in Brian's earlier symphonies. The main influences,apparent to my ears,are composers like Mahler and Bruckner. Even then,any influences are all pretty well assimilated,and subsumed,by Brian's very personal soundworld. Comparisons have been made,over the years,between the Gothic and Mahler (particularly,for obvious reasons,the eighth) but the only comparison really is in the size of the forces and scale of the two works. If I had to pick the most 'Mahlerian' Brian symphony,it would be No 2. The most 'Brucknerian' would be No 3. I believe Brian admired Sibelius,but the only comparison really is the move towards more terse,concentrated structures in the later symphonies. One of Brian's heroes was Berlioz;and I presume this might have had some influence on the composition of the Gothic symphony;if only in the scope and scale of the forces used,and the,sometimes,colourful choice of instrumentation.
As to whether,John Williams was influenced by a hearing (off air?) of the Gothic Symphony,when he was composing the music for Jaws,I have no idea?!! ::) But,I don't think so?!! :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on August 09, 2017, 07:45:54 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 09, 2017, 05:41:38 AMAs to whether,John Williams was influenced by a hearing (off air?) of the Gothic Symphony,when he was composing the music for Jaws,I have no idea?!! ::) But,I don't think so?!! :o ;D
As I never dared to watch this horror movie, nor consciously heard the music accompanying it, it might help if you could clarify this suggestion a bit: does John Williams also make use of 16 horns, 12 trumpets, 11 trombones, 10 tubas, 6 sets of timpani, 6 sets of cymbals, 4 choirs and 2 triangles, or only the one bird scarer - or what?  ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 09, 2017, 07:56:40 AM
 :D

It's the opening figure of the Gothic - that oscillation between D and F on 'cellos, basses, bassoons and tubas, which is uncannily reminiscent of the shark motif in Jaws (on the basses).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian
Post by: Karl Henning on August 09, 2017, 08:05:13 AM
More so than the snapping minor second which opens the final movement of the New World Symphony?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 09, 2017, 08:07:34 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 09, 2017, 08:05:13 AM
More so than the snapping minor second which opens the final movement of the New World Symphony?

That work is so much more obscure than the Gothic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on August 09, 2017, 08:24:27 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 09, 2017, 08:07:34 AM
That work is so much more obscure than the Gothic.

Especially to a US composer!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 09, 2017, 08:31:48 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 09, 2017, 08:24:27 AM
Especially to a US composer!

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 09, 2017, 08:38:56 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 09, 2017, 07:45:54 AM
As I never dared to watch this horror movie, nor consciously heard the music accompanying it, it might help if you could clarify this suggestion a bit: does John Williams also make use of 16 horns, 12 trumpets, 11 trombones, 10 tubas, 6 sets of timpani, 6 sets of cymbals, 4 choirs and 2 triangles, or only the one bird scarer - or what?  ::)
Sorry! It was referring to a critic,who compared the opening of the Gothic Symphony,after the Prom performance,to the Jaws theme. It was an "in-joke" that might have back fired a little here. Johan might remember? ("Help me!" :() There were a few posts about it at the time,I seem to remember. I thought it was quite funny,actually. It had never once crossed my mind that there was any similarity;but I can,sort of,see (hear) what he meant! Maybe there were some sharks in the audience?!

NB: I think it was The Economist?

https://bgreinhart.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/seeing-the-gothic/ (https://bgreinhart.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/seeing-the-gothic/)

http://www.economist.com/node/21524808 (http://www.economist.com/node/21524808)



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 09, 2017, 08:54:16 AM
From the Nikolay Miaskovsky thread:
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 27, 2013, 06:28:11 PM
Well, I've really enjoyed the symphonies I've listened to thus far.  But, I am taking my time going through the set, as these are very dark, and yes, disturbing works in some ways.  Even darker than Shostakovich.

Hmm, I'm tempted to explore the string quartets now, too!  :)

In a few of the symphonies I've heard thus far, I can almost hear a quasi Jaws theme!   ;D

AND, I love that about 18 or 19 of the 27 symphonies are in minor keys!  :D (I'm just guessing the #, don't quote me on it).  ;)

The symphonies I've 'first listened to so far are:

#1, 2, 3, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 19 and 25.  Also, the Symphony-Suite in A minor, and the Slav Rhapsody in D minor.
Apparently,the Gothic isn't the only one?!! ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on August 09, 2017, 12:00:42 PM
Quote from: Christo on August 09, 2017, 07:45:54 AM
As I never dared to watch this horror movie, nor consciously heard the music accompanying it, it might help if you could clarify this suggestion a bit: does John Williams also make use of 16 horns, 12 trumpets, 11 trombones, 10 tubas, 6 sets of timpani, 6 sets of cymbals, 4 choirs and 2 triangles, or only the one bird scarer - or what?  ::)
;D You were lucky of course. I was a school boy when Jaws came out,and had the misfortune to be sitting next to a 'friend' who was obsessed with the film (he even had the book!). My first encounter with Havergal Brian was still five years away!!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on August 09, 2017, 05:09:51 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 09, 2017, 12:00:42 PM
;D You were lucky of course. I was a school boy when Jaws came out,and had the misfortune to be sitting next to a 'friend' who was obsessed with the film (he even had the book!). My first encounter with Havergal Brian was still five years away!!!!

Judging by the Reader's Digest version (all I could bear to turn the pages) the novel was dross.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian
Post by: krummholz on August 15, 2017, 07:06:23 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 09, 2017, 08:05:13 AM
More so than the snapping minor second which opens the final movement of the New World Symphony?
To some ears perhaps. To these, it's almost a clear case of cribbing (Williams from Dvorak, of course).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian
Post by: vandermolen on August 15, 2017, 07:10:56 AM
Quote from: krummholz on August 15, 2017, 07:06:23 AM
To some ears perhaps. To these, it's almost a clear case of cribbing (Williams from Dvorak, of course).
OT
Also, see the similarity between the March from Prokofiev's 'Love of Three Oranges' Suite and the 'Parade of the Ewoks' (John Williams: Star Wars: 'Return of the Jedi').
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 15, 2017, 07:19:57 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on August 09, 2017, 05:41:38 AM
Posting about the Nordic feel of some of Daniel Jones' earlier symphonies,and some affinities shared by Brian and Jones (Daniel not Corporal! ;D) ie,the cragginess,alleviated by a certain lyricism and a flair for colourful orchestration;got me thinking again,about european influences in Brian's earlier symphonies. The main influences,apparent to my ears,are composers like Mahler and Bruckner. Even then,any influences are all pretty well assimilated,and subsumed,by Brian's very personal soundworld. Comparisons have been made,over the years,between the Gothic and Mahler (particularly,for obvious reasons,the eighth) but the only comparison really is in the size of the forces and scale of the two works. If I had to pick the most 'Mahlerian' Brian symphony,it would be No 2. The most 'Brucknerian' would be No 3.
Really ?! The 2nd sounds more to me like it might have been influenced by early Schoenberg than either Mahler or Bruckner, though my impression is more Bruckner than Mahler; and in the final funeral march, Wagner of course (including several actual quotations). And the 3rd has always sounded more redolent of Richard Strauss to me than any of those three. I'm not sure I could pick a Mahlerian Brian symphony, their styles are so different, despite Brian's love of counterpoint and funeral marches. Maybe the 11th? I don't think so, though it shows that Brian was certainly very aware of and fond of Mahler.

I would definitely add Schoenberg, early Schoenberg anyway, to the list of Brian's influences, particularly the Gurre-lieder.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 31, 2017, 05:20:37 PM
The new Naxos recording of the Symphonies 8, 21 and 16 is announced for release on 1 October.

https://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.573752

The liner notes by John Pickard are very informative.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 31, 2017, 07:25:58 PM
Thanks for spotting that, calyptorhynchus!

Update: read the liner notes. Yes, very good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on September 01, 2017, 12:21:13 AM
Of course, when that disc is released, it means that the long process of making all 32 of Brian's symphonies available on disc will finally be complete! A significant moment in raising awareness of neglected music, surely.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 01, 2017, 01:43:43 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on September 01, 2017, 12:21:13 AM
Of course, when that disc is released, it means that the long process of making all 32 of Brian's symphonies available on disc will finally be complete! A significant moment in raising awareness of neglected music, surely.

Yes, a historic moment. That I would be 56 to see the day. It was 40 years ago that I discovered Malcolm McDonald's books about HB...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 01, 2017, 05:46:53 AM
And it's only taken 40 years! ;D A few more quid in the fund and we might even live to hear his Faust opera?! I think this will be only the second Brian cd (or Lp) to have a mountainscape on the front. The Unicorn cd was the last one. I presume it reflects Brian's metaphorical scaling of the creative peaks? Or just a handy photo?! ;D It looks cool,though! The eighth is often cited as one of his best. I've always had a fondness for the twenty first in the old LSSO recording. One of his most immediately approachable scores,amongst the later ones. I wonder if they can beat that classic recording? The LSSO still seems to reign supreme. Brabbins is good;but it's the LSSO recording I go to first! Newstone's Seventh is another example. Although,I find the Mackerras more satisfactory as a reading (of a Brian symphony) than Brabbins' tenth! But the LSSO were a school orchestra,of course! Conversely,if I want to listen to the Second,Brabbins is now my first port of call,not Mackerras (who is also very good). I also rather like Leslie Head,but I'm digressing a bit now!! ::) :) Anyway,this is excellent news! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 01, 2017, 06:12:33 AM
I agree with all of your preferences, cilgwyn.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on September 04, 2017, 03:32:13 AM
The imminent availability of all 32 symphonies on disc makes the "marathon" do-able. The symphony cycle can be broken down into eight concert-length programmes. Once No. 10 is reached, the symphonies are quite short, so more of them can fit into the programmes. Here's my "schedule" for how I would listen to them:

Programme 1
No. 1

Programme 2
No. 2
*interval*
No. 3

Programme 3
No. 4
*interval*
Nos. 5 & 6

Programme 4
No. 7
*interval*
Nos. 8 & 9

Programme 5
Nos. 10-12
*interval*
Nos. 13-15

Programme 6
Nos. 16-18
*interval*
Nos. 19-21

Programme 7
Nos. 22-24
*interval*
Nos. 25 & 26

Programme 8
Nos. 27-29
*interval*
Nos. 30-32
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 04, 2017, 03:36:55 AM
Love it. Your personal Brian Festival! Keep an ambulance ready for after you have finished your binge, for either serious withdrawal symptoms or overused ears.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 05, 2017, 02:17:08 AM
You may need the Brian recovery position!

(https://i.imgur.com/yh1zCJM.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 05, 2017, 07:28:38 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 01, 2017, 05:46:53 AM
And it's only taken 40 years! ;D A few more quid in the fund and we might even live to hear his Faust opera?! I think this will be only the second Brian cd (or Lp) to have a mountainscape on the front. The Unicorn cd was the last one. I presume it reflects Brian's metaphorical scaling of the creative peaks? Or just a handy photo?! ;D It looks cool,though! The eighth is often cited as one of his best. I've always had a fondness for the twenty first in the old LSSO recording. One of his most immediately approachable scores,amongst the later ones. I wonder if they can beat that classic recording? The LSSO still seems to reign supreme. Brabbins is good;but it's the LSSO recording I go to first! Newstone's Seventh is another example. Although,I find the Mackerras more satisfactory as a reading (of a Brian symphony) than Brabbins' tenth! But the LSSO were a school orchestra,of course! Conversely,if I want to listen to the Second,Brabbins is now my first port of call,not Mackerras (who is also very good). I also rather like Leslie Head,but I'm digressing a bit now!! ::) :) Anyway,this is excellent news! :)
This is such exciting news! No.8 is my favourite, with its wonderfully searching and visionary ending. The Lyrita CD featuring Symphony 6 and 16 has a sort-of mountainous cover image, although more of the Pennines than the Alps.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 05, 2017, 09:11:41 AM
After hearing them in their recording of the Sinfonia Tragica,I can't wait to hear those Russian sounding horns. Symphony No 21 is one of my favourite of the later symphonies. No 26 is one of the tougher ones (for me,anyway!).This will provide an ideal opportunity for me to finally to grips with it! I just looked at the HB website. The celebrated emi recording was forty years ago! The eighth has one Brian's most memorable and arresting openings. I just wonder how this will come across in the new recording? The score is just waiting for that 'Russian' sound. Those deep sonorites. Everything about it.

Jumping the gun,and being a bit greedy! I know they've all been recorded now;but I hope this won't be the last Brian offering from this team!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on September 05, 2017, 04:14:01 PM
I have a general question for you all.  What is it about HB that keeps you returning to him?  What sets him apart in your mind/ears?  I myself am a lifelong fan (since I've been introduced to his music before the 1989 Marco Polo release of the Gothic I was already anticipating it greatly and was not disappointed plus made the pilgrimage to hear it's first concert performance in 30 years in Brisbane in 2010 I believe so I have my own answers to this question but would like to hear from others).  To you, is he Mahler 2.0?  Something even beyond that?  Just an individual and quirky voice???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2017, 10:53:33 PM
Why do I love HB's music? I was 16 when I discovered it, in 1977, through MM's classic studies. Only a year later could I actually hear it - symphonies 8 and 9, and I knew I had found my musical soulmate. Why do I love Brian's music? Inventiveness, power, sound, unpredictability, beauty, the peculiar world it inhabits and creates, grandeur, originality, dramatic concision.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 05, 2017, 11:12:20 PM
Why is HB's music so compelling?

1.     It is extraordinarily elemental, it sounds like the music other composers are trying to write, but they can't quite do it.

2.     The music is endlessly striving and never sentimental or defeated, and never too long.

3.     There are 32 symphonies to choose from (plus other works), so there is always one that is right for the particular listening time.

4.     The sound of his orchestra is wonderful, I love the way that he bases it in the brass, and the strings often have to accompany. I get the feeling that with HB the western orchestral is finally liberated as an expressive tool, with strings, ww, brass and percussion all now equally important.

5.     Given the foregoing, then his life story is sympathetic (if he wasn't a brilliant composer then it would be irrelevant). I love the idea that he started composing when Gladstone was prime minister and was still composing when the PM was Harold Wilson.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2017, 12:26:11 AM
I concur, of course, with everything calyptorhynchus says.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 06, 2017, 02:55:28 AM
Although the appeal of HB's music has been expressed more eloquently above, I would say that I like it because of:

Its craggy grandeur

The visionary and searching quality of works like Symphony 8 and Symphony 10.

Many of the themes are memorable, unexpected and have a kind of 'beauty out of the ashes' quality to them - certainly a moment in Symphony 2 does it for me.

In concert the gargantuan 'Gothic' is like nothing else - the first time I heard the music was live in London (Ole Schmidt performance).

The appeal of his music is intensified by the knowledge that he ploughed on with it into extreme old age in the face of almost complete indifference. Although it is the quality of the music itself which is most appealing.

He lived nearby in Sussex.

A bus is named after him  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2017, 03:11:56 AM
'A bus is named after him.' A bus with a mind of its own, that never gets you where you thought you were going.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on September 06, 2017, 03:15:42 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 06, 2017, 02:55:28 AM


The visionary and searching quality of works like Symphony 8 and Symphony 10.


Yes, this! I also like what other people may consider to be his shortcomings, such as once in a while, half way through and idea he'd go into a tangent which(seemingly) leads to nowhere. But this IS how we think, how we search, how we explore, isn't it? To me, these thought are more "real" and I can relate to them.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2017, 04:01:34 AM
As an addendum, sparked by springrite: more than with any other composer I get the feeling we are inside Brian's mind and heart themselves, and that their mysterious life dictates what happens musically and creates those unpredictable structures.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 06, 2017, 05:01:55 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2017, 03:11:56 AM
'A bus is named after him.' A bus with a mind of its own, that never gets you where you thought you were going.
Excellent Johan!
Just as you think it is going in one direction it unexpectedly goes in another.
But it has some very loyal passengers who stay on board regardless.
8).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2017, 05:06:09 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 06, 2017, 05:01:55 AM
But it has some very loyal passengers who stay on board regardless.
8) .


The infamous 'Brian groupies'...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on September 06, 2017, 05:52:06 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 05, 2017, 10:53:33 PM
Why do I love HB's music? I was 16 when I discovered it, in 1977, through MM's classic studies. Only a year later could I actually hear it - symphonies 8 and 9, and I knew I had found my musical soulmate. Why do I love Brian's music? Inventiveness, power, sound, unpredictability, beauty, the peculiar world it inhabits and creates, grandeur, originality, dramatic concision.

That was my introduction as well.  It was Charles Groves cassette tape of No. 8 and 9 in the mid 1980's for me.  I thought it was very original and didn't sound like anyone else but was full of emotion and energy.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on September 06, 2017, 08:13:48 AM
One of the things that appeals to me about HB is that he composed for the sheer love of it. Even if it was never performed, this music just had to get out of his mind and onto manuscript paper. This is music from the soul, not music forced out by Commission and Money.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2017, 08:19:59 AM
Exactly! Written out of necessity, an existential need.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on September 06, 2017, 11:02:28 AM
For me, Brian's appeal is his relevance to the 'Zeitgeist'.

The West has become largely secular and we take our philosophy of life from scientists - especially from 'celebrity' scientists like Stephen Hawking and Richard Dawkins.

And these guys tell us that existence is nothing more than the outworking of the laws of physics. There's no inherent meaning to life - although we can pretend there is, in order to avoid going nuts (or we can just take antidepressants, as the militant atheist philosopher Alex Rosenberg recommends in his book 'The Atheist's Guide to Reality'.)

The phrase which sticks in my mind is the "blind, pitiless indifference of the universe" (Richard Dawkins)

And this is why Brian appeals to me. Here is this dogged figure, singing his song despite the utter indifference of the cosmos (not to mention that of the musical establishment!) His life could almost be a metaphor for our age.

I hear this especially in the 10th symphony, with its violin melody pitted against elements which suggest the forces of nature (the 'storm') and the vastness and impassiveness of the universe (the 'still point' with its stellar twinklings, and that 'Sphinx like' brass chord near the end.)

I've always found it interesting that the "Gothic", in which Brian (IMHO) expressed his loss of any orthodox religious faith, was followed by a symphony subtitled "Man in his Cosmic Loneliness"!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2017, 12:28:59 PM
Quote from: relm1 on September 05, 2017, 04:14:01 PMTo you, is he Mahler 2.0? 

I agree with most of the comments posted prior to mine but yes, Mahler has something to do with it. I was a Mahler fan (fanatic) years before I heard a single note of Brian. Although he's a very different composer, when I finally heard Brian (the Groves 8 ), I heard a similarity to Mahler (those militant brass-heavy marches in particular) that appealed instantly. Brian is like Mahler compressed to its essence.

Brian wrote about Mahler but he could have been writing about himself:

"Mahler's genius lies hidden in the subtle use of his enormous forces. He is an outstanding contrapuntist, his lines have resilience and he is a dexterous manipulator of the laws of contrast. The layout of his symphonies suggest an unfolding drama..."

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2017, 01:05:37 PM
'Brian is like Mahler compressed to its essence.' I get what you're saying. Brian is much less personal than Mahler, though, much less confessional and autobiographic. He expresses a lot of emotions, but I don't get the feeling he is necessarily expressing his own. Brian is more of a dramatist. You get swift scenes.  Mahler writes in the first person, Brian in the third. And Brian gives you the essence of the march, anger, war, ecstasy, longing, nostalgia et cetera. Mahler is still 19th-century in his sense of time, Brian much more 20th-century, even 21st-century.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2017, 01:23:32 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2017, 01:05:37 PM
Brian is much less personal than Mahler, though, much less confessional and autobiographic...Brian is more of a dramatist[...]Mahler is still 19th-century in his sense of time, Brian much more 20th-century, even 21st-century.

Oh yeah, I agree. Mahler pointed to the new century but was still part of the 19th, while Brian fully embraced the new and the future. And I agree about the difference between the "confessional" Mahler and the "dramatist" Brian. But I still hear Mahler in Brian. Just a few minutes ago, a few seconds of violin solo in the 30th reminded me of Mahler's extended violin solo in the second movement of his Fourth. Again, Brian as Mahler compressed. Not that I think Brian was consciously or unconsciously, imitating Mahler. It's just what he reminds me of, and why I appreciate both composers.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2017, 01:35:32 PM
I love both of them, too. Funnily enough, I feel emotionally much closer to Brian. As if Mahler's very 'openness about his feelings' creates more distance!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2017, 01:53:52 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2017, 01:35:32 PM
I love both of them, too. Funnily enough, I feel emotionally much closer to Brian. As if Mahler's very 'openness about his feelings' creates more distance!

Interesting. I can't say I'm the same way. My own poetry is very much influenced by the confessional poets, so maybe I naturally gravitate towards the confessional Mahler. Brian is the "colder" and more objective composer and, while I love him, he doesn't give me quite the same emotional explosion I get from Mahler.

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2017, 02:16:13 PM
And that's interesting, too. I write prose, and almost always in the third person. Mahler moves me strongly, but I identify with Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 06, 2017, 03:16:55 PM
Quote from: springrite on September 06, 2017, 03:15:42 AM
Yes, this! I also like what other people may consider to be his shortcomings, such as once in a while, half way through and idea he'd go into a tangent which(seemingly) leads to nowhere. But this IS how we think, how we search, how we explore, isn't it? To me, these thought are more "real" and I can relate to them.

Excellent point Paul - Very much share this view.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 06, 2017, 03:19:25 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on September 06, 2017, 11:02:28 AM
For me, Brian's appeal is his relevance to the 'Zeitgeist'.

The West has become largely secular and we take our philosophy of life from scientists - especially from 'celebrity' scientists like Stephen Hawking and Richard Dawkins.

And these guys tell us that existence is nothing more than the outworking of the laws of physics. There's no inherent meaning to life - although we can pretend there is, in order to avoid going nuts (or we can just take antidepressants, as the militant atheist philosopher Alex Rosenberg recommends in his book 'The Atheist's Guide to Reality'.)

The phrase which sticks in my mind is the "blind, pitiless indifference of the universe" (Richard Dawkins)

And this is why Brian appeals to me. Here is this dogged figure, singing his song despite the utter indifference of the cosmos (not to mention that of the musical establishment!) His life could almost be a metaphor for our age.

I hear this especially in the 10th symphony, with its violin melody pitted against elements which suggest the forces of nature (the 'storm') and the vastness and impassiveness of the universe (the 'still point' with its stellar twinklings, and that 'Sphinx like' brass chord near the end.)

I've always found it interesting that the "Gothic", in which Brian (IMHO) expressed his loss of any orthodox religious faith, was followed by a symphony subtitled "Man in his Cosmic Loneliness"!

How wonderfully expressed - I find this post rather moving.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2017, 03:34:12 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on September 06, 2017, 11:02:28 AM
And this is why Brian appeals to me. Here is this dogged figure, singing his song despite the utter indifference of the cosmos (not to mention that of the musical establishment!) His life could almost be a metaphor for our age.

I hear this especially in the 10th symphony, with its violin melody pitted against elements which suggest the forces of nature (the 'storm') and the vastness and impassiveness of the universe (the 'still point' with its stellar twinklings, and that 'Sphinx like' brass chord near the end.)

I have never been an atheist, and Brian's 'Nothing matters' philosophy never rang true to me. In an article Brian wrote in the 1930s, about 'How The Gothic Came To Be Written' for a magazine called 'Modern Mystic' (!), he said that there was a mystery in his work and he wanted to get at the heart of it (I summarise in my own words). You don't compose your whole life with the conviction that nothing has any value and that a meaning to life is non-existent. That is why, to these ears, the ending of the Tenth is not bleak. The solo violin seems, haltingly, tentatively, to implore the universe, and a sort of protective and consoling voice (basses, bassoons), with an ascending line in harp and glockenspiel, seems to answer...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on September 06, 2017, 03:41:01 PM
Great discussion here, enjoy it with all my heart.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on September 06, 2017, 05:00:01 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2017, 03:34:12 PM
I have never been an atheist, and Brian's 'Nothing matters' philosophy never rang true to me. In an article Brian wrote in the 1930s, about 'How The Gothic Came To Be Written' for a magazine called 'Modern Mystic' (!), he said that there was a mystery in his work and he wanted to get at the heart of it (I summarise in my own words). You don't compose your whole life with the conviction that nothing has any value and that a meaning to life is non-existent. That is why, to these ears, the ending of the Tenth is not bleak. The solo violin seems, haltingly, tentatively, to implore the universe, and a sort of protective and consoling voice (basses, bassoons), with an ascending line in harp and glockenspiel, seems to answer...

With all due respect my old friend, you presume an atheist is not spiritual or that you don't compose with the conviction that nothing has any value and that a meaning to life is non-existent.  Being an Atheist can be extremely liberating and spiritual in a sense.  The perfect model is Ralph Vaughan Williams who was not a deist but very spiritual in his writing.  I probably fall in this category and HB might as well.  I don't think you accurately characterize our belief. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 06, 2017, 08:56:44 PM
Quote from: Christo on September 06, 2017, 03:41:01 PM
Great discussion here, enjoy it with all my heart.
+1  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on September 06, 2017, 09:54:06 PM
Quote from: relm1 on September 06, 2017, 05:00:01 PMThe perfect model is Ralph Vaughan Williams who was not a deist but very spiritual in his writing.
With due permission, I was thinking of my 'soulmate' since I was 15 too. :) Completely dissimilar to Brian, of course, but there are a few comparisons to be made. The better known Vaughan Williams composed in the first person, e.g. symphonies 1-5, but then went over to the third person, symphonies 6-9, with that magical moment at the very end of the Sixth's opening Allegro, when he glances back during a few fragrant bars and then resolutely transcends them in the final bars, never to look back again (not even in the Eight's Cavatina). These latter symphonies are often described in terms as if the spiritual Pilgrim of the Fifth now moves into unknown territories as Beethoven's tragically striving hero, now alone against the infinite Universe. There is a point, there's also another side. Vaughan Williams had moved beyond his 'atheism' into the 'cheerful agnosticism' (Ursula Vaughan Williams) of his latter days and one can easily see that his spirituality now moves into new directions too. For the lonely hero of his latter symphonies is also met with a new 'fulfillment' that is the opposite of the bleakness of the Universe he encounters at the same time. Especially the Ninth is flowing over with a newly found spiritual wisdom and it is this intense awareness of 'meaning', not the supposed atheism of his formal creed, that moves the listener. So yes: formally atheist composers can be very spiritually rich in musical reality.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 06, 2017, 10:44:33 PM
I've never understood MacDonald's report of HB's comment "nothing matters" as evidence of thorough-going nihilism (though maybe MacDonald does). I think of it more in the Buddhist sense of being without attachments.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Florestan on September 07, 2017, 12:40:33 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 06, 2017, 03:41:01 PM
Great discussion here, enjoy it with all my heart.

+ 1.

Makes me want to start exploring Brian (and RVW) immediately: believe it or not, I've never heard one note of the former's music so far, and very little of the latter's. Plus, I'm a theist (not to be confused with atheist).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 07, 2017, 01:07:28 AM
Rehearsals in Leicester, 1972. That was my first exposure to Brian. Initial thoughts at those rehearsals - what the hell is this c**p! I'm not a massive fan but he has his moments. I admire his dogged "who gives a stuff" mentality. He would be overwhelmed to see this thread and staggered to find out that all his symphonies have now been recorded professionally. Every dog has his day and you know what - I don't think his day has yet arrived. Maybe in 20 years time, due to CD exposure, a handful of the man's compositions will become regular repertoire pieces. You never know. Mahler was hardly ever heard in the 1950s but he's now a cult figure admired all over the world. Only time will tell.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2017, 01:19:12 AM
Christo's post re atheism-agnosticism in music is illuminating.I have moved from a very spiritual agnosticism into faith (2014). And Brian is still there.

One tantalising fact: very late in life Brian wanted to set a psalm to music (choral piece). 'The fool in his heart says there is no God'...

The man remains an enigma.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Leggiero on September 07, 2017, 01:19:52 AM
Quote from: springrite on September 06, 2017, 03:15:42 AM
Yes, this! I also like what other people may consider to be his shortcomings, such as once in a while, half way through and idea he'd go into a tangent which(seemingly) leads to nowhere. But this IS how we think, how we search, how we explore, isn't it? To me, these thought are more "real" and I can relate to them.

In full knowledge that this will blow my cover (if it even still exists) for those of you who also read said organ, I'm hoping that an upcoming issue of the HBS Newsletter will include a short piece by yours truly exploring related ideas, and bearing the title "Is Brian's Music More Pertinent than Ever in Our Age of Information Overload?"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 07, 2017, 01:26:06 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 07, 2017, 12:40:33 AM
+ 1.

Makes me want to start exploring Brian (and RVW) immediately: believe it or not, I've never heard one note of the former's music so far, and very little of the latter's. Plus, I'm a theist (not to be confused with atheist).
Try this by way of a nice introduction. From the telly in 1972.
https://youtu.be/9f7_wiFeDIU
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Florestan on September 07, 2017, 01:31:08 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 07, 2017, 01:26:06 AM
Try this by way of a nice introduction. From the telly in 1972.
https://youtu.be/9f7_wiFeDIU

Thanks. Will watch the whole thing asap.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 07, 2017, 01:44:16 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 07, 2017, 01:31:08 AM
Thanks. Will watch the whole thing asap.
I sent you the link to part 1 of 3. You will find parts 2 and 3 on Youtube and see the composer himself being interviewed. Marvellous stuff.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on September 07, 2017, 01:47:28 AM
I too am fascinated by Brian's intention, around the time of writing Symphony 19, to compose a setting of Psalm 53:

<<The fool hath said in his heart: "there is no God">>

As Malcolm MacDonald commented:
'The fact that Brian contemplated a work on these words sheds a strange light on his public avowals of atheism"

Brian also made a comment about his attitude to prayer:
"I hold the belief that the only practical prayer is that of the inner voice and urge, such as in the old fable of Hercules and the Wagoner, who, when his wagon got stuck in the mud, prayed to Hercules to come to his aid. The voice replied, "Man - help thyself" "

I have come to the conclusion that Brian had (for his day) quite unusual metaphysical beliefs. He probably avowed atheism in public to make things simpler, but I reckon he lost his belief in the God of the Bible, and discovered instead the God of Max Planck.

Certainly I think he could have been described as 'spiritual, not religious' which sums up the attitude of many people today - and which is again, probably why his music holds such fascination for contemporary listeners. (I think the recent rise in Vaughan Williams' stature might be an example of the same phenomenon.)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on September 07, 2017, 01:48:00 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 07, 2017, 12:40:33 AM
+ 1.
Makes me want to start exploring Brian (and RVW) immediately: believe it or not, I've never heard one note of the former's music so far, and very little of the latter's. Plus, I'm a theist (not to be confused with atheist).
For me, as an imperfect Christian, both atheism and theism are just 'our little systems that have their day and cease to be / they are but broken lights of Thee' to paraphrase Alfred Lord Tennyson. 8) In heavens, there is place for both. 0:)

Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2017, 01:19:12 AM
Christo's post re atheism-agnosticism in music is illuminating. I have moved from a very spiritual agnisticism into faith (2014). And Brian is still there.

One tantalising fact: very late in life Brian wanted to set a psalm to music (choral piece). 'The fool in his heart says there is no God'...

The man remains an enigma.
Yes and no. Apparently, Brian had a soul.  ;D

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Florestan on September 07, 2017, 01:50:16 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 07, 2017, 01:48:00 AM
For me, as an imperfect Christian, both atheism and theism are just 'our little systems that have their day and cease to be / they are but broken lights of Thee' to paraphrase Alfred Lord Tennyson. 8) In heavens, there is place for both. 0:)

I knew I should've written "Christian theist", but I couldn't resist a little pun.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2017, 01:51:50 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 07, 2017, 01:48:00 AMApparently, Brian had a soul.

You shock me.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on September 07, 2017, 02:09:32 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 07, 2017, 01:50:16 AMI knew I should've written "Christian theist", but I couldn't resist a little pun.  :)
And I know you love your Christian atheist neighbour too.  8)

The point here is, that none of us here can escape from the strongly spiritual - even religious - dimensions of both Brian's and Vaughan Williams' music. And that for us, their musical message is more telling than anything else they may have maintained.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2017, 02:19:01 AM
Being a writer myself, I know my work reveals more about me than anything I as a person can tell about myself. So - agreed.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Florestan on September 07, 2017, 02:22:07 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 07, 2017, 02:09:32 AM
The point here is, that none of us here can escape from the strongly spiritual - even religious - dimensions of both Brian's and Vaughan Williams' music. And that for us, their musical message is more telling than anything else they may have maintained.

I certainly see where you're coming from. "The fool hath saith in his heart: there is no God" --- both Brian and RVW had wise hearts, and so did many others. Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on September 07, 2017, 02:26:30 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 07, 2017, 02:22:07 AMLe coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point.
Exactly. And of which their cup runneth over.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2017, 02:50:20 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 07, 2017, 02:22:07 AMLe coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point.

Pascal Quote of the Day
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 07, 2017, 03:13:20 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 06, 2017, 09:54:06 PM
With due permission, I was thinking of my 'soulmate' since I was 15 too. :) Completely dissimilar to Brian, of course, but there are a few comparisons to be made. The better known Vaughan Williams composed in the first person, e.g. symphonies 1-5, but then went over to the third person, symphonies 6-9, with that magical moment at the very end of the Sixth's opening Allegro, when he glances back during a few fragrant bars and then resolutely transcends them in the final bars, never to look back again (not even in the Eight's Cavatina). These latter symphonies are often described in terms as if the spiritual Pilgrim of the Fifth now moves into unknown territories as Beethoven's tragically striving hero, now alone against the infinite Universe. There is a point, there's also another side. Vaughan Williams had moved beyond his 'atheism' into the 'cheerful agnosticism' (Ursula Vaughan Williams) of his latter days and one can easily see that his spirituality now moves into new directions too. For the lonely hero of his latter symphonies is also met with a new 'fulfillment' that is the opposite of the bleakness of the Universe he encounters at the same time. Especially the Ninth is flowing over with a newly found spiritual wisdom and it is this intense awareness of 'meaning', not the supposed atheism of his formal creed, that moves the listener. So yes: formally atheist composers can be very spiritually rich in musical reality.  ;D
You should write a book about this - seriously.
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 07, 2017, 05:09:08 AM
The new Naxos CD with Symphony 8 etc on is now on the Amazon UK website:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Havergal-Brian-Symphonies-Orchestra-Alexander/dp/B074XT3C4Z/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1504789796&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=havergal+brian+Naxos
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2017, 06:05:02 AM
Yay!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on September 07, 2017, 12:59:03 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 07, 2017, 05:09:08 AM
The new Naxos CD with Symphony 8 etc on is now on the Amazon UK website

A few minutes' worth available for listening here: http://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/brian-symphonies-nos-8-21-26-new-russia-state-symphony-orchestra-alexander-walker/0747313375271#item (http://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/brian-symphonies-nos-8-21-26-new-russia-state-symphony-orchestra-alexander-walker/0747313375271#item), for those of us in the Qobuz area.  Sounds rather good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2017, 01:08:31 PM
Tantalising snippets!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on September 08, 2017, 07:59:40 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2017, 01:08:31 PM
Tantalising snippets!

Sounds like an eminently enjoyable "conclusion" to the dream that many of us have had - that all of Brian's marvellous and varied symphonies are finally available commercially in good recordings (via the pioneering efforts of EMI, Dutton, Hyperion, Naxos, Marco Polo, Klassikhaus). The next mandatory purchase will surely be the luxurious early cantata The Vision of Cleopatra from Dutton...

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 08, 2017, 08:03:48 AM
Hear, hear, John!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on September 08, 2017, 05:13:23 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 07, 2017, 01:08:31 PM
Tantalising snippets!

Damn it!  It isn't working for me.  I can't hear the snippets.  :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on September 08, 2017, 10:15:46 PM
The snippets are at Presto too.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Naxos/8573752


Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Leggiero on September 09, 2017, 05:30:48 AM
Quote from: Leggiero on September 07, 2017, 01:19:52 AM
In full knowledge that this will blow my cover (if it even still exists) for those of you who also read said organ, I'm hoping that an upcoming issue of the HBS Newsletter will include a short piece by yours truly exploring related ideas, and bearing the title "Is Brian's Music More Pertinent than Ever in Our Age of Information Overload?"

Well, it is in in today's Newsletter,  but actually appears, shorn of its title, in "Letters to the Editor"...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2017, 05:35:18 AM
Just read it. I think Brian's music in its speed and clash of ideas is very 21st century. I agree with what you say.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on September 09, 2017, 07:56:49 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on September 08, 2017, 10:15:46 PM
The snippets are at Presto too.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Naxos/8573752

Different snippets!  (Beginnings of all the movements, in fact.)  If we can find a few more samples on a few more sites, we'll be able to piece them all together and avoid the wait.

BTW, don't the New Russians make the start of 21 sound like Shostakovich?  (Perhaps they'd make Haydn sound like Shostakovich, too.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on September 09, 2017, 08:16:24 AM
After 40 years of waiting to complete the cycle, an extra week's not going to make a difference, but I wonder why it's not available on the first Friday of October (6th)? We have to wait until the 13th.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 09, 2017, 08:27:57 AM
Quote from: DaveF on September 09, 2017, 07:56:49 AM
Different snippets!  (Beginnings of all the movements, in fact.)  If we can find a few more samples on a few more sites, we'll be able to piece them all together and avoid the wait.

:laugh:

Different snippets - I noticed, too. I wonder why Alexander Walker has a tendency to speed up Brian's slow passages and slow down his faster ones (as in No. 21, second and third movements)? The same happens in his recording of No. 29. And the closing movement of No. 24.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 09, 2017, 08:58:17 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 07, 2017, 02:09:32 AM
And I know you love your Christian atheist neighbour too.  8)

The point here is, that none of us here can escape from the strongly spiritual - even religious - dimensions of both Brian's and Vaughan Williams' music. And that for us, their musical message is more telling than anything else they may have maintained.
Yes, this is very true.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaze on September 09, 2017, 02:55:37 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 09, 2017, 08:58:17 AM
Yes, this is very true.

Nice discussion. I don't think the music is necessarily the more telling. Just a page or 2 ago I read 2 very different, but both equally nicely described, views on the composer, by 2 people listening to the very same notes:

Quote from: Klaatu on September 06, 2017, 11:02:28 AM

The phrase which sticks in my mind is the "blind, pitiless indifference of the universe" (Richard Dawkins)

I hear this especially in the 10th symphony, with its violin melody pitted against elements which suggest the forces of nature (the 'storm') and the vastness and impassiveness of the universe (the 'still point' with its stellar twinklings, and that 'Sphinx like' brass chord near the end.)

I've always found it interesting that the "Gothic", in which Brian (IMHO) expressed his loss of any orthodox religious faith, was followed by a symphony subtitled "Man in his Cosmic Loneliness"!

Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 06, 2017, 03:34:12 PM
I have never been an atheist, and Brian's 'Nothing matters' philosophy never rang true to me. In an article Brian wrote in the 1930s, about 'How The Gothic Came To Be Written' for a magazine called 'Modern Mystic' (!), he said that there was a mystery in his work and he wanted to get at the heart of it (I summarise in my own words). You don't compose your whole life with the conviction that nothing has any value and that a meaning to life is non-existent. That is why, to these ears, the ending of the Tenth is not bleak. The solo violin seems, haltingly, tentatively, to implore the universe, and a sort of protective and consoling voice (basses, bassoons), with an ascending line in harp and glockenspiel, seems to answer...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 16, 2017, 01:57:24 PM
Just sent off to the HB Society for the new Naxos disk which will complete all 32 symphonies in professional orchestra recordings on disk.

(Also sent off for an HB society mug, which I'm told will be the first one ever to arrive in Australia, I hope in one piece).  ;)

I've got a question, we know that the LSSO LPs were the first two HB recordings issued, what was the next one? Was it Myer Fredman and the Tragica? Or was it Mackerras or Groves in one or other(s) of 7, 8, 9?

If someone has the information to hand or in their heads it might be worth posting a chronology of HB recordings.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 16, 2017, 02:03:36 PM
LSSO was the first, with symphonies 10 and 21. Then came their record with 22, Psalm 23 and the Fifth English Suite. Then you had Groves with symphonies 8 and 9. Then the Hull Youth Orchestra recordings. Then The Tigers Suite (we have reached the 1980s by now). Then the Mackerras 7 and 31. And then Lionel Friend with the Third.

For the dates, check the HBS site. But this, off the top of my head, is how I remember it.

P.S.There also is the recording of Brian's piano works somewhere.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 17, 2017, 01:39:50 AM
Problem is that the HB Society pages list the recordings but only have the most recent release: for example for the Mackerras 7 and Groves 8 & 9 they have '2002' (when they were issued as an EMI twofer).

I don't have the information on the original release dates of the recordings.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on September 17, 2017, 02:02:44 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 16, 2017, 02:03:36 PM
LSSO was the first, with symphonies 10 and 21. Then came their record with 22, Psalm 23 and the Fifth English Suite. Then you had Groves with symphonies 8 and 9. Then the Hull Youth Orchestra recordings. Then The Tigers Suite (we have reached the 1980s by now). Then the Mackerras 7 and 31. And then Lionel Friend with the Third.

For the dates, check the HBS site. But this, off the top of my head, is how I remember it.
In between came the Sinfonia Tragica coupled with No. 16, both by the LPO under Myer Fredman (the Lyrita recording was made in 1975). I remember, because the LP was my acquaintance with Brian in 1979 or thereabouts.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 17, 2017, 02:27:27 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 17, 2017, 02:02:44 AM
In between came the Sinfonia Tragica coupled with No. 16, both by the LPO under Myer Fredman (the Lyrita recording was made in 1975). I remember, because the LP was my acquaintance with Brian in 1979 or thereabouts.  :)

Of course! I knew I had forgotten something!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 17, 2017, 02:28:18 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 17, 2017, 01:39:50 AM
Problem is that the HB Society pages list the recordings but only have the most recent release: for example for the Mackerras 7 and Groves 8 & 9 they have '2002' (when they were issued as an EMI twofer).

I don't have the information on the original release dates of the recordings.

I'll see what I can do.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 17, 2017, 02:57:51 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 16, 2017, 01:57:24 PM
Just sent off to the HB Society for the new Naxos disk which will complete all 32 symphonies in professional orchestra recordings on disk.

(Also sent off for an HB society mug, which I'm told will be the first one ever to arrive in Australia, I hope in one piece).  ;)

I've got a question, we know that the LSSO LPs were the first two HB recordings issued, what was the next one? Was it Myer Fredman and the Tragica? Or was it Mackerras or Groves in one or other(s) of 7, 8, 9?

If someone has the information to hand or in their heads it might be worth posting a chronology of HB recordings.
Never mind the symphonies I want the HB Society mug!
8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 17, 2017, 03:34:25 AM
10 & 21: April 1973
22: February 1975
6 & 16: May 1975

Taken from MM's books (release dates).

8 & 9: early 1978
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on September 17, 2017, 04:38:14 AM
Release dates are all given in the 'chronology since 1972' under Brian's Life on the website. The year for the CBS LP is inaccurately given as 1976; a slip of the finger, it was indeed February 1975, just before the Lyrita. Thanks for the heads-up, I'll fix it.

Vandermolen; rejoin, and you can order one!  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 17, 2017, 04:42:27 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on September 17, 2017, 04:38:14 AM
Release dates are all given in the 'chronology since 1972' under Brian's Life on the website. The year for the CBS LP is inaccurately given as 1976; a slip of the finger, it was indeed February 1975, just before the Lyrita. Thanks for the heads-up, I'll fix it.

Vandermolen; rejoin, and you can order one!  ;)

Definitely!
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 17, 2017, 10:52:42 PM
Here is the list extracted from the HB website chronology. I have not bothered with reissues of recordings unless the HB website has missed the first issue (ie Rayner Cook songs LP, Hull Youth Symphony Orchestra recordings, Cameo Classics piano). Also not included is the Dutton historical issue of radio broadcasts.

April 1973   Unicorn releases first commercial recording: an LP of Symphonies 10,21 Leicestershire Schools SO/James Loughran, Eric Pinkett
February 1975   CBS releases LP of Symphony 22, English suite 5, Psalm 23
May 1975   Lyrita releases LP of Symphonies 6, 16, London PO/Myer Fredman
June 1978   EMI releases LP of Symphonies 8,9, Royal Liverpool PO/Sir Charles Groves
1987   EMI releases CD of Symphonies 7, 31, Tinker's wedding with RLPO/Sir Charles Mackerras
1989   Hyperion releases CD of Symphony 3, BBCSO/Lionel Friend
1990   Marco Polo releases CD of Symphony 1; Bratislava RSO and Slovak PO/Ondrej Lenard
1993   Marco Polo releases CD of Symphonies 17, 32, In memoriam, Festal dance
1994   Marco Polo releases CD of Symphony 18, Violin concerto, The jolly miller
1995   Marco Polo releases CD of Symphonies 20, 25, Fantastic variations
1998   Marco Polo releases CD of Symphony 2, Festival fanfare
February 2000   Marco Polo releases CD of Symphonies 11, 15, Doctor Merryheart, For valour
19 October 2005   CD release of the original Auracle LP of Songs, Legend on Toccata Classics: Brian Rayner Cook (bar), Roger Vignoles (pno), Stephen Levine (vln), Peter Lawson (pno)
December 2009   CD issue of the 1966 Boult Gothic symphony on Testament; BBC Symphony Orchestra forces/Sir Adrian Boult
January 2010   CD re-issue of the complete Hull recordings on Cameo Classics; Hull Youth Symphony Orchestra/Geoffrey Heald-Smith
July 2010   CD issue of 6 songs c/w other composers on Tableaux Records; David Hackbridge Johnson (bar), Yeu-Meng Chan (pno)
August 2010   CD issue of Symphonies 9 and 11, Dr Merryheart on Dutton in historic performances by the London Symphony Orchestra/Harry Newstone & Norman Del Mar
January 2011   CD issue of Havergal Brian Orchestral works vol. 1 on Toccata Classics; BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra/Garry Walker
January 2011   CD issue of Symphonies 10, 30, Concerto for Orchestra, English Suite 3 on Dutton; Royal Scottish National Orchestra/Martyn Brabbins
January 2011   CD issue of the Cello concerto on Dutton c/w Bush, Bowen; BBC Concert Orchestra/Martin Yates
September 2011   CD issue of Havergal Brian Orchestral Works vol. 2 - Music from the Operas on Toccata Classics; BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra/Garry Walker
28 November 2011   CD issue of the Proms Gothic symphony on Hyperion; BBCNOW/BBCCO forces/Martyn Brabbins
May 2012   CD issue of Havergal Brian Songbook vol. 1 on Stone Records; Mark Stone (Bar), Sholto Kynoch (pno)
November 2012   CD issue of the Violin Concerto, Symphony 13, English Suite 4 on Dutton; Lorraine McAslan (vln), RSNO/Martyn Brabbins
May 2013   CD issue of Symphonies 22-24, English Suite 1 on Naxos; Noviya Rossiya Symphony Orchestra/Alexander Walker
July 2013   CD re-issue of the complete Havergal Brian piano music on Cameo Classics; Peter Hill (pno)
April 2014   CD issue of Havergal Brian Songbook vol. 2 on Stone Records; Mark Stone (bar), Sholto Kynoch (pno)
11 November 2014   CD issue of the 1983 BBC studio performance of The Tigers on Testament; BBC Symphony Orchestra forces/Lionel Friend
January 2015   CD issue of Symphonies 5 'Wine of Summer', 19, 27, Festal Dance on Dutton; Roderick Williams (bar), RSNO/Martyn Brabbins
March 2015   CD issue of Symphonies 6 'Sinfonia tragica', 28, 29, 31 on Naxos; Noviya Rossiya Symphony Orchestra/Alexander Walker
July 2016   CD issue of Symphonies 2 and 14 on Dutton; RSNO/Martyn Brabbins
October 2016   CD issue of the 1966 premiere of Symphony 6 'Sinfonia tragica' on CRQ Editions (c/w Robert Simpson conducting Beethoven's Eroica; Royal Opera House Orchestra/Douglas Robinson
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 17, 2017, 11:14:31 PM
Good work!

I miss the Suite from The Tigers, released somewhere in the middle of the 1980s. Leopold Hager, conducting a Luxembourg orchestra  (and very well, too, I might add).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 18, 2017, 12:29:09 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 17, 2017, 11:14:31 PM
Good work!

I miss the Suite from The Tigers, released somewhere in the middle of the 1980s. Leopold Hager, conducting a Luxembourg orchestra  (and very well, too, I might add).

It was reissued by Tim Grocutt of Heritage soon after we finished work on the the LSSO double CD. Link here and it sounds very good.
http://www.heritage-records.com/classical-orchestral-cd-album-titles/havergal-brian-the-tigers-john-foulds-pasquinade-symphonique-no-1
I also wrote a review here:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Jun14/Brian_Tigers_HTGCD270.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 18, 2017, 12:41:42 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 17, 2017, 11:14:31 PM
Good work!

I miss the Suite from The Tigers, released somewhere in the middle of the 1980s. Leopold Hager, conducting a Luxembourg orchestra  (and very well, too, I might add).
PS here's another from Cameo. Transcription by yours truly. Sounds OK mainly due to the first rate pressing I managed to source from Ebay:
http://www.wyastone.co.uk/havergal-brian-the-complete-music-for-piano.html
Review here:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Jul14/Brian_piano_CC9016CD.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2017, 12:59:57 AM
Thanks, John!

P.S. In your Tigers review you mention the 'harp and celesta' in Green Pastures. I think you spotted the extremely close-miked vibraphone, which Brian possibly was the first to employ in a symphony orchestra...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 18, 2017, 01:48:02 AM
Also missing from the list the Complete Piano Music on Athena (Raymond Clarke), from 1997.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 18, 2017, 02:06:10 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2017, 12:59:57 AM
Thanks, John!

P.S. In your Tigers review you mention the 'harp and celesta' in Green Pastures. I think you spotted the extremely close-miked vibraphone, which Brian possibly was the first to employ in a symphony orchestra...
....but sadly not the last!! It's a good CD though. I'll take another listen.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 18, 2017, 02:52:26 AM
This seems to be missing from the list:
https://youtu.be/jOaF_slpyhE
Also, returning to the Cameo piano music CD by Peter Hill just for a moment. The one on the market now (released in 2014) is far superior to the original Cameo transfer onto CD which was crude - there was no attempt to remove clicks and pops from the LP. The master tapes have long since been destroyed.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on September 18, 2017, 07:33:07 AM
Thanks all for the gap-fillers; I shall update the chronology when I get back to Blighty.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2017, 07:38:18 AM
Splendid, hbswebmaster!

Isn't it remarkable - HB has been dead for almost 45 years, and people still care for him and his works...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on September 18, 2017, 08:40:03 AM
To the Brianites: what's your favorite performance of The Gothic and why?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2017, 09:00:31 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 18, 2017, 08:40:03 AM
To the Brianites: what's your favorite performance of The Gothic and why?

I know five performances: Boult, Schmidt, Lenard, Curro, Brabbins. Three of those are available on CD. The question is difficult to answer, because every performance has its own pros and cons. The Gothic is in two parts, the first purely orchestral, the second choral. I think Boult and Curro are my top picks for Part 1, and Boult and Brabbins for Part 2. Why - excitement and/or precision.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on September 18, 2017, 09:48:35 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2017, 09:00:31 AM
I know five performances: Boult, Schmidt, Lenard, Curro, Brabbins. Three of those are available on CD. The question is difficult to answer, because every performance has its own pros and cons. The Gothic is in two parts, the first purely orchestral, the second choral. I think Boult and Curro are my top picks for Part 1, and Boult and Brabbins for Part 2. Why - excitement and/or precision.

Very nice. Thanks for your feedback, Johan. How's the audio quality on the Boult?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2017, 09:55:21 AM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 18, 2017, 09:48:35 AM
Very nice. Thanks for your feedback, Johan. How's the audio quality on the Boult?

I know how important sonics are for you, John. The Boult is from 1966, and was only issued on Testament a few years ago. Having been used to bad-sounding tapes, that release was a big improvement. But it remains analog. (The Brabbins sounds terrific, but that's 2011 for you...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on September 18, 2017, 10:11:44 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2017, 09:55:21 AM
I know how important sonics are for you, John. The Boult is from 1966, and was only issued on Testament a few years ago. Having been used to bad-sounding tapes, that release was a big improvement. But it remains analog. (The Brabbins sounds terrific, but that's 2011 for you...)

Thanks, Johan. I just bought the Boult performance of The Gothic. 8) Coincidently, I just listened to a bit of it on YouTube and was enthralled with it so far.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: André on September 18, 2017, 03:38:22 PM
Time for a reassessment. I have Boult and Brabbyns but can't remember much besides preferring Boult. I will give both a spin eventually.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on September 18, 2017, 03:41:17 PM
Quote from: André on September 18, 2017, 03:38:22 PM
Time for a reassessment. I have Boult and Brabbyns but can't remember much besides preferring Boult. I will give both a spin eventually.

Looking forward to your feedback.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: André on September 18, 2017, 03:47:59 PM
Ooops. I feel pressure  ;D

OK, I've pulled them down from the shelves and will listen to Brabbyns later this week.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2017, 03:56:00 PM
Poor André...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on September 18, 2017, 03:58:59 PM
Quote from: André on September 18, 2017, 03:47:59 PM
Ooops. I feel pressure  ;D

OK, I've pulled them down from the shelves and will listen to Brabbyns later this week.

Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2017, 03:56:00 PM
Poor André...

:P

No pressure, Andre. Completely at your leisure.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: André on September 18, 2017, 04:23:39 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2017, 03:56:00 PM
Poor André...

Actually, being prodded to step out of one's routine (for one's own good, of course) is quite healthy. Beware of apathy and listener fatigue, I say !  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on September 18, 2017, 04:33:51 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2017, 09:00:31 AM
I know five performances: Boult, Schmidt, Lenard, Curro, Brabbins. Three of those are available on CD. The question is difficult to answer, because every performance has its own pros and cons. The Gothic is in two parts, the first purely orchestral, the second choral. I think Boult and Curro are my top picks for Part 1, and Boult and Brabbins for Part 2. Why - excitement and/or precision.

I will confess to not having heard Schmidt.  I own the others.  I think my go to version would be Brabbins though in some crucial moments I prefer Lenard however it has an inferior sound and instrumentation shortcuts.  It would be great if it was remastered.  Curro is a good "best of bread" that holds very special place for me since I was at the rehearsals and concert.  At the time no one know if the Gothic would ever be performed again.  Ultimately, great and complex works such as this are never recorded perfectly.  Any one version is a compromise.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on September 18, 2017, 06:02:01 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 18, 2017, 08:40:03 AM
To the Brianites: what's your favorite performance of The Gothic and why?
Being a Brianite and a Brabbinite, I'd vote for Brabbins.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on September 18, 2017, 06:19:17 PM
Quote from: springrite on September 18, 2017, 06:02:01 PM
Being a Brianite and a Brabbinite, I'd vote for Brabbins.

But why Brabbins over the others, Paul? Is there something you really admire in his performance that the others do not have?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on September 18, 2017, 09:00:00 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 18, 2017, 06:19:17 PM
But why Brabbins over the others, Paul? Is there something you really admire in his performance that the others do not have?

Maybe just better sound more than anything else.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kyjo on September 18, 2017, 09:23:01 PM
Okay, so I finally got around to listening to the Gothic for the first time a couple months ago via the Lenard recording on Naxos/Marco Polo. I must confess that I could make no sense of the music whatsoever, turned it off about halfway through, and haven't since been compelled to finish listening to it. Should I try listening to a different recording (I'm suspecting the Lenard isn't the best available)? Or is Brian just not my thing? Enlighten me, please, Brianites ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2017, 10:53:20 PM
Quote from: kyjo on September 18, 2017, 09:23:01 PM
Okay, so I finally got around to listening to the Gothic for the first time a couple months ago via the Lenard recording on Naxos/Marco Polo. I must confess that I could make no sense of the music whatsoever, turned it off about halfway through, and haven't since been compelled to finish listening to it. Should I try listening to a different recording (I'm suspecting the Lenard isn't the best available)? Or is Brian just not my thing? Enlighten me, please, Brianites ;D

Of course it could simply just not be your cup of tea. Loving Brian isn't mandatory. What I do like to know is  - what do you expect the music to do, which it doesn't? Brian's structures are not traditional. Brian moves in his own mysterious ways... Adjusting to that is often key to 'getting' his music.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on September 18, 2017, 11:23:53 PM
kyjo -

I didn't listen to the Gothic until long after I'd heard some of HB's much shorter (and arguably, greater) symphonies, especially 6, 8, 10 and 16.

I often suggest newcomers start with 6 and 10 - great works, full of Brian idiosyncrasies, but with some beautiful lyrical content not always present in his knottier works. I suggest listening to 6 in both Fredman and Walker versions, and 10 in both the LSSO/Loughran and Brabbins versions. (Currently all available on YouTube).

Each of these only lasts 15-20 minutes. If you are initially confused and then drawn back (as I was) for another listen, you're on your way to becoming a Brianite - and then you can revisit the Gothic!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 18, 2017, 11:26:21 PM
Excellent suggestion, Klaatu.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 19, 2017, 12:52:11 AM
Following my public 'Naming and Shaming' on this Forum, as a lapsed HB Society member, I'd like it put on record that I have now re-joined the HB Society and will be obtaining (one way or another) my HB Society Mug in due course.
8) :P

On a separate note, I have at least three recordings of the Gothic (not including the same one twice on Marco Polo and Naxos  ::))

I rather like the old Marco Polo one (Lenard), probably because for a long time it was the only one available and I played it constantly. Although I was at the Brabbins concert (as I had been at the Schmidt one) I've hardly played the CD, so I need to rectify that as well.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2017, 12:58:10 AM
The Prodigal Son returns... 'I'll be back' - but that's a different franchise... Enjoy your mug, and Brabbins!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 19, 2017, 01:22:13 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2017, 12:58:10 AM
The Prodigal Son returns... 'I'll be back' - but that's a different franchise... Enjoy your mug, and Brabbins!

Thank you!

I've always identified with Arnie  :D

8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 19, 2017, 01:38:18 AM
You will find this somewhat strange. I have all the Gothic recordings but don't much care for the piece. It's probably done more harm than good to the composer's reputation. I sometimes listen to the orchestral part but rarely venture any further, except for the final few bars which are utterly inspired. I enjoy the Curro for it's enthusiasm, sense of occasion and freshness despite the orchestra being less than immaculate. Overall I would go for the LSO and Schmidt but all of them are OK. Just get them all and enjoy the ride (until the singing kicks in!  :) )
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 19, 2017, 02:13:56 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 19, 2017, 01:38:18 AM
You will find this somewhat strange. I have all the Gothic recordings but don't much care for the piece. It's probably done more harm than good to the composer's reputation. I sometimes listen to the orchestral part but rarely venture any further, except for the final few bars which are utterly inspired. I enjoy the Curro for it's enthusiasm, sense of occasion and freshness despite the orchestra being less than immaculate. Overall I would go for the LSO and Schmidt but all of them are OK. Just get them all and enjoy the ride (until the singing kicks in!  :) )

Very interesting post. I agree and love the orchestral sections of the 'Gothic' and also agree that the final bars are indeed wonderful. Cumulatively though, especially in concert, it is a magnificent work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2017, 02:21:49 AM
The 'Judex' movement of Part 2 is extraordinary. I never had any problems with the other movements, either. I agree with John that The Gothic probably did Brian a disservice, not because of anything he or it did, but because it created all kinds of misconceptions about the composer and his work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 19, 2017, 02:37:32 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2017, 02:21:49 AM
The 'Judex' movement of Part 2 is extraordinary. I never had any problems with the other movements, either. I agree with John that The Gothic probably did Brian a disservice, not because of anything he or it did, but because it created all kinds of misconceptions about the composer and his work.
To be cheeky, what you mean is that some people heard the Gothic, thought "what a terrible piece" and then moved on to other composers!  :) Had the Gothic never existed and either No.8 or 10 had been the first Brian pieces on the radar maybe attitudes would be different.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2017, 02:39:29 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 19, 2017, 02:37:32 AM
To be cheeky, what you mean is that some people heard the Gothic, thought "what a terrible piece" and then moved on to other composers!  :)

Can't imagine anyone reacting that way.

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on September 19, 2017, 02:40:34 AM
The Gothic was what needed to come out of Brian at the time he wrote it. And it needed to have those enormous forces. Everything any composer ever writes is what is needed at the time. It's ignorant and snobbish critics who have forced these misconceptions. But finally people are getting a chance to destroy those misconceptions and make a judgment of the music for themselves. That's all we ask for is a chance. Many of us, having taken this chance, have gained an admiration for Brian's music, and that's a wonderful thing.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2017, 02:44:15 AM
Hear hear!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on September 19, 2017, 05:19:42 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2017, 02:39:29 AM
Can't imagine anyone reacting that way.

;)
You've not met my wife though have you........
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2017, 05:23:55 AM
Quote from: John Whitmore on September 19, 2017, 05:19:42 AM
You've not met my wife though have you........

My spouse likes Brian. My former spouse, I should say... !
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 19, 2017, 05:33:01 AM
'Must we listen to this noise?'

'Sounds like World War Three going on in there'.

My wife's habitual response to the music I play (not just HB).

She does, however, like Klaus Egge's String Quartet (Naxos).

8)

PS She was more polite, however, when we were first going out. I recall playing her John Foulds's 'Dynamic Triptych' and her saying: 'Well, it certainly is very dynamic!'
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on September 19, 2017, 05:38:56 AM
Quote from: springrite on September 18, 2017, 06:02:01 PMBeing a Brianite and a Brabbinite, I'd vote for Brabbins.
... because of Brabbins' bite or is it tight?  ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kyjo on September 19, 2017, 06:08:26 AM
Thanks for the extensive and helpful feedback everyone :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2017, 06:12:16 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 19, 2017, 05:33:01 AM
'Must we listen to this noise?'

'Sounds like World War Three going on in there'.

My wife's habitual response to the music I play (not just HB).

She does, however, like Klaus Egge's String Quartet (Naxos).

8)

PS She was more polite, however, when we were first going out. I recall playing her John Foulds's 'Dynamic Triptych' and her saying: 'Well, it certainly is very dynamic!'

My mother always asked, when I listened to Wagner's Ring: 'Are they sawing that woman in half?'
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2017, 06:14:10 AM
Quote from: kyjo on September 19, 2017, 06:08:26 AM
Thanks for the extensive and helpful feedback everyone :)

You're welcome. I hope you'll come to understand the logic of 'The Gothic'...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on September 19, 2017, 09:58:04 AM
I've always believed that a first-rate, committed performance of No 10 at the Proms should be a major goal.

In an ideal world, Proms performances of 6, 8, 10, 16 and 30 would present the composer in the best possible light, and would begin to erode the 'gigantic, unperformable behemoth' reputation which clings to his symphonies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2017, 10:04:21 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on September 19, 2017, 09:58:04 AM
I've always believed that a first-rate, committed performance of No 10 at the Proms should be a major goal.

In an ideal world, Proms performances of 6, 8, 10, 16 and 30 would present the composer in the best possible light, and would begin to erode the 'gigantic, unperformable behemoth' reputation which clings to his symphonies.

It would be wonderful if the Controller would program one of those works... It's out of our hands, though, and the HBS's.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: André on September 19, 2017, 12:12:29 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 19, 2017, 05:33:01 AM
'Must we listen to this noise?'

'Sounds like World War Three going on in there'.

My wife's habitual response to the music I play (not just HB).

She does, however, like Klaus Egge's String Quartet (Naxos).

8)

PS She was more polite, however, when we were first going out. I recall playing her John Foulds's 'Dynamic Triptych' and her saying: 'Well, it certainly is very dynamic!'


Over here it's a question of decibels. I can get away with low sound levels, but not so with the harpsichord. Even when just faintly tickling in the background, she always goes "you know I HATE harpsichord !!" . Any organ sound will provoke the comment "Are we at Mass here ?"

Ah la la...  ???
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 19, 2017, 12:44:19 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2017, 06:12:16 AM
My mother always asked, when I listened to Wagner's Ring: 'Are they sawing that woman in half?'
Very funny!
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 19, 2017, 12:46:16 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on September 19, 2017, 09:58:04 AM
I've always believed that a first-rate, committed performance of No 10 at the Proms should be a major goal.

In an ideal world, Proms performances of 6, 8, 10, 16 and 30 would present the composer in the best possible light, and would begin to erode the 'gigantic, unperformable behemoth' reputation which clings to his symphonies.

I agree. Maybe, if nothing else, they could squeeze in No.22 which says a lot in a short time.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 19, 2017, 12:47:14 PM
Quote from: André on September 19, 2017, 12:12:29 PM

Over here it's a question of decibels. I can get away with low sound levels, but not so with the harpsichord. Even when just faintly tickling in the background, she always goes "you know I HATE harpsichord !!" . Any organ sound will provoke the comment "Are we at Mass here ?"

Ah la la...  ???
It's good to know that I'm not alone.
My father once woke up as I was playing Durufle's Requiem in my room next door. He told me that he thought he'd woken up in a crypt.
8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 19, 2017, 01:51:53 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2017, 06:12:16 AM
My mother always asked, when I listened to Wagner's Ring: 'Are they sawing that woman in half?'

Bruckner is said to have asked, on watching the first Ring at Bayreuth, "Why are they setting Brünnhilde on fire?"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 19, 2017, 01:54:25 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 19, 2017, 01:51:53 PM
Bruckner is said to have asked, on watching the first Ring at Bayreuth, "Why are they setting Brünnhilde on fire?"

A classic. Whether fact-based is anyone's guess...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on September 21, 2017, 04:41:03 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 19, 2017, 12:46:16 PM
I agree. Maybe, if nothing else, they could squeeze in No.22 which says a lot in a short time.

May I offer a slightly contrarian view? No. 22, and several others of Brian's later, more compressed works, great and fascinating works all, but might be better approached through recordings where one can explore them intensively with repeated listenings as they are so chock-full of ideas that are stated and then swiftly left behind, that they are likely hard for most (and certainly for those unfamiliar with Brian's style) to digest in a live performance.

I've always felt that No. 3 might have the best chance of bringing large numbers of people into the fold. It's bold, original, very approachable to lovers of late 19th century romanticism, and full of memorable and singable melodies that haunt the ear long after the last chord has ended. The first time I heard it I could not fathom why it was not already part of the standard repertoire. Admittedly I have a bias as I think No. 3 is perhaps his single best symphony and deserves to be heard more widely, but I also think it would serve the Brianite cause a lot better than many of his later works - though perhaps Nos. 6 and 7 are equally approachable.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kyjo on September 21, 2017, 09:41:31 PM
Just finished listening to Brian's Symphony no. 6 in the LPO/Fredman recording on Lyrita. I really enjoyed it! Brian shows himself to be a masterful orchestrator in this piece, and is able to create some very special atmospheres through unique choices of instrumental color.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2017, 10:00:11 PM
@Krummholz Your suggestion has its merits. Using the Third Symphony as a sort of late-Romantic bridge to the tougher scores. It would be more expensive to produce, though, compared to the later smaller ones  (two pianos).

@kyjo Good to hear it! I suggest you try No. 8 next, Groves + Liverpool Philharmonic. To many this is the quintessential Brian symphony, all dramatic contrast with no easy resolution. A fascinating piece.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 21, 2017, 10:21:51 PM
Quote from: kyjo on September 21, 2017, 09:41:31 PM
Just finished listening to Brian's Symphony no. 6 in the LPO/Fredman recording on Lyrita. I really enjoyed it! Brian shows himself to be a masterful orchestrator in this piece, and is able to create some very special atmospheres through unique choices of instrumental color.

One of the best I think. No.16 has some great moments too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 21, 2017, 10:23:01 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 21, 2017, 10:00:11 PM
@Krummholz Your suggestion has its merits. Using the Third Symphony as a sort of late-Romantic bridge to the tougher scores. It would be more expensive to produce, though, compared to the later smaller ones  (two pianos).

@kyjo Good to hear it! I suggest you try No. 8 next, Groves + Liverpool Philharmonic. To many this is the quintessential Brian symphony, all dramatic contrast with no easy resolution. A fascinating piece.

The Groves No.8 is my favourite Brian recording. Great that they reproduce the original LP cover in the Groves box set.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on September 22, 2017, 10:45:19 AM
I love No 3 with its overtly romantic tunes - including that 'Viennese waltz' in the scherzo - but it's a transitional piece and IMHO doesn't show Brian at his most original.

6, 8, 10 have their lyrical 'romantic' moments, are amongst HB's greatest, and are shorter and cheaper when considering a live performance.

16 and 30 are great scores - I would argue that 16 is possibly HB's greatest symphony (though it depends whether or not there's an 'r' in the month!) - but they are knotty, uncompromising and difficult for the average listener to absorb on first hearing - they were certainly difficult for me!

OTOH a score such as 21 is relatively short, accessible and good-natured - but fairly conventional by HB's standard.

So for live performances, 6, 8 or 10 are a good blend of the visionary, melodic and original.

If money was not an obstacle, then yes, No 3 would win admirers - but it lacks something of the originality of the later works.

If I win the National Lottery I'll fund televised performances of the whole bloody lot!


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 22, 2017, 10:46:59 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on September 22, 2017, 10:45:19 AM
If I win the National Lottery I'll fund televised performances of the whole bloody lot!

I'll remember you promised.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 28, 2017, 10:28:15 PM
The only way to truly appreciate HB's music is to listen to it whilst sipping tea out of one of these:

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/097d/t908051345ys46b6g.jpg)

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on September 28, 2017, 11:27:10 PM
...while listening to 'the 32' in sequence on CD?  ;)

Glad it arrived safely, John.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 29, 2017, 01:25:50 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 28, 2017, 10:28:15 PM
The only way to truly appreciate HB's music is to listen to it whilst sipping tea out of one of these:

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/097d/t908051345ys46b6g.jpg)

:)

Right - I've re-joined the society - Now I MUST have one of these. I'm even more jealous!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 29, 2017, 01:42:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 29, 2017, 01:25:50 AM
Right - I've re-joined the society - Now I MUST have one of these. I'm even more jealous!

Welcome back, Jeffrey!

A mug of beauty is a joy forever... I might order one, too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 29, 2017, 04:19:40 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 29, 2017, 01:42:29 AM
Welcome back, Jeffrey!

A mug of beauty is a joy forever... I might order one, too.

Thank you Johan!

Yes, I think you need one by you too, especially when you are writing.
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 29, 2017, 02:01:52 PM
All I need now is an HB Society thermos, to keep the cups coming during the Gothic.

  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 29, 2017, 02:36:28 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 29, 2017, 04:19:40 AMYes, I think you need one by you too, especially when you are writing.
:)

I would view it more as a 'victory mug'... Brian has been one of my greatest models of artistic perseverance. Now mine will pay off, too: my highly ambitious and innovative first novel is going to be published by a reputable publishing firm, based in my native Amsterdam. 'The Gothic' has informed the very structure of the work, without my having planned it that way...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 30, 2017, 02:44:34 AM
Congratulations Johan!

;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 30, 2017, 02:47:22 AM
As well as getting the mug of course I also received the new Naxos disk of Symphonies 8, 21 and 26.

It might be superfluous to review it because of course all brianites will be getting it, but let me just say that these are outstanding performances in outstanding sound. It was a shock to me to hear the modern and closely-recorded sound of No.8, which I had only heard in off the radio and AAD sound in other recordings. This is a stunning performance, and one that holds up against the Groves EMI and the BBC Fredman recording. I'll have to compare them to see which is my favourite, and certainly this recording sounded a little different in places compared to those I am used to, but overall it was a magnificently held-together and compelling performance.

Similarly, it's a revelation to hear this recording of No.21. I felt immediately that this was a better account that either the LSSO or Downes BBC recording. I remember that it wasn't until I heard the Brabbins/McAslan recording of the Violin Concerto that that work clicked for me, and it did so because it made Brian's Violin Concerto sound like other composers' Violin Concertos. Similarly this account makes No.21 sound like other symphonies (almost the only one of Brian's that does so), not one of the 'Cheltenham Symphonies' that MacDonald wrote of, but a very English-sounding work none-the-less. I think Walker gets the finale exactly right.

Finally No.26, wood-block and all. What an odd work, the first movement is a vigorous allegro type movement which in this reading is raucous and almost chaotic in its flow. MacDonald thinks that Brian gave up in the last two movements, eager to get on to the next Symphony and so wrote an inconsequential middle movement and a flippant finale. I get the feeling from this account, as from the poor radio recordings I have heard before, that the last two movements are the flip side of the first movement, a sort of  low-intensity turbulent flow, which at times in the finale returns to same intensity, though not the same mood as the first movement. This is a fascinating symphony and I will re-listen to it with pleasure in this account.

So congratulations Alexander Walker and the New Russia State Symphony Orchestra, and thanks for all the Brian recordings, Naxos.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 30, 2017, 02:50:40 AM
Great review, calyptorhynchus! I am going to look for a download (paid, of course). Cannot wait! Thanks for the congratulations, too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 30, 2017, 02:54:11 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 29, 2017, 02:36:28 PM
I would view it more as a 'victory mug'... Brian has been one of my greatest models of artistic perseverance. Now mine will pay off, too: my highly ambitious and innovative first novel is going to be published by a reputatable publishing firm, based in my native Amsterdam. 'The Gothic' has informed the very structure of the work, without my having planned it that way...
Wow! That is such great news Johan. Congratulations. You can now begin work on the English translation!
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 30, 2017, 02:55:43 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 30, 2017, 02:54:11 AM
Wow! That is such great news Johan. Congratulations. You can now begin work on the English translation!
:)

Thanks! Ha! I'll have to change a word there - reputable!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 30, 2017, 02:57:52 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 30, 2017, 02:47:22 AM
As well as getting the mug of course I also received the new Naxos disk of Symphonies 8, 21 and 26.

It might be superfluous to review it because of course all brianites will be getting it, but let me just say that these are outstanding performances in outstanding sound. It was a shock to me to hear the modern and closely-recorded sound of No.8, which I had only heard in off the radio and AAD sound in other recordings. This is a stunning performance, and one that holds up against the Groves EMI and the BBC Fredman recording. I'll have to compare them to see which is my favourite, and certainly this recording sounded a little different in places compared to those I am used to, but overall it was a magnificently held-together and compelling performance.

Similarly, it's a revelation to hear this recording of No.21. I felt immediately that this was a better account that either the LSSO or Downes BBC recording. I remember that it wasn't until I heard the Brabbins/McAslan recording of the Violin Concerto that that work clicked for me, and it did so because it made Brian's Violin Concerto sound like other composers' Violin Concertos. Similarly this account makes No.21 sound like other symphonies (almost the only one of Brian's that does so), not one of the 'Cheltenham Symphonies' that MacDonald wrote of, but a very English-sounding work none-the-less. I think Walker gets the finale exactly right.

Finally No.26, wood-block and all. What an odd work, the first movement is a vigorous allegro type movement which in this reading is raucous and almost chaotic in its flow. MacDonald thinks that Brian gave up in the last two movements, eager to get on to the next Symphony and so wrote an inconsequential middle movement and a flippant finale. I get the feeling from this account, as from the poor radio recordings I have heard before, that the last two movements are the flip side of the first movement, a sort of  low-intensity turbulent flow, which at times in the finale returns to same intensity, though not the same mood as the first movement. This is a fascinating symphony and I will re-listen to it with pleasure in this account.

So congratulations Alexander Walker and the New Russia State Symphony Orchestra, and thanks for all the Brian recordings, Naxos.
So, not only do you have the mug but also the CD which I 'pre-ordered' from Amazon and which has not yet appeared. I'm beginning to think that there is an HB conspiracy against me for allowing my membership to lapse. 8)
Great review though - can't wait to hear No.8 and I love the cover image on the Naxos CD - very suitable for Brian I think.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on September 30, 2017, 05:25:21 AM
Amazon has the release as being October 13th, so there's a bit of waiting yet.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 30, 2017, 05:33:47 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on September 30, 2017, 05:25:21 AM
Amazon has the release as being October 13th, so there's a bit of waiting yet.

HBS members can get the CD early (and more cheaply if you live in the UK). You are right that downloads, too, will be available from October 13th.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 30, 2017, 02:17:35 PM
Sorry everyone, I thought it would be available today (ie 1 October). In birdwatching if you describe a rare bird you saw and others didn't to them it called "gripping them off". I guess that's what my review is doing.

:(

But you will enjoy these accounts!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 30, 2017, 02:30:02 PM
It has taken around 45 years for all Brian symphonies to be commercially available - waiting for another two weeks is nothing...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on October 02, 2017, 05:24:25 AM
No need to apologise. I like reading enthusiastic and positive reviews for something I'm looking forward to. And yes, despite the labels just attaching a release month to their new discs, it's usually not until a subsequent Friday (the global release day) that you'll see the discs in stores or on your doormat. It's worth checking somewhere like Amazon, because for pre-orders, it'll tell you the full release date.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on October 03, 2017, 11:09:10 AM
In this week's "File under: Rather bizarre":

A search on Twitter for "Havergal Brian" reveals an account that, 8 times since June 29th, has wished the aforementioned composer a happy 150th birthday, an event that is still some 8 years and 3 months away.

I don't know either...

Anyway, in not-so-bizarre news, I'm currently spinning Symphony No. 4. The a cappella choral section in the first movement is gorgeous!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on October 06, 2017, 04:46:17 AM
Good to hear that the new release is out there; I am eagerly looking forward to it. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be listed at all yet on Amazon's US site. If past experience is any guide, they will likely be several weeks behind the rest of the world on this side of the pond, but one never knows. One week now until the official release date...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on October 13, 2017, 05:40:25 PM
Success! I managed to order the new Naxos release from ArkivMusic.com. As far as I can tell that is the only US site that has it in stock, or at least advertises that it does. We shall see how soon it arrives; hopefully it won't take too long.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 13, 2017, 10:09:33 PM
Good to hear! I downloaded the new CD. I still have to listen to 26. As for 21, the work sounds terrific. I don't agree with all of Walker's tempi, reading along in my old Musica Viva score, but his interpretation is persuasive and the playing of the orchestra superior (yes) to the LSSO's. This performance supersedes theirs, as far as I'm concerned. As for the Eighth, Walker equals Groves. Not much difference, to these ears. Symphony No. 8 is a powerful piece in either version. The ending in the Walker is a bit more mysterious, I think. That's all.




Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on October 14, 2017, 01:14:27 AM
It's not a massive deal really, but I wouldn't be surprised if this new recording of No. 8 omits the organ part. After all, while it is effective and dramatic, it's only a brief pedal part (added by Brian decades later), and no other works on the disc call for organ.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 14, 2017, 01:39:59 AM
Well, my wife came home from work yesterday to hear me playing the new Naxos Symphony 8 at top volume ('Can't you play something nice...it's horrible...it's torture'). Anyway I refused to turn it off until the end of Symphony 8 and what a terrific performance - the best of the three I have heard. The opening sounded more mahlerian than ever and there was a greater sense of rhythmic drive than in the Groves (much as I like that one as well). The visionary ending with those harps is a real 'goose bump' moment for me and especially in this performance. All credit to Dr John Grimshaw for the wonderful and entirely apt craggy mountain scene photo on the front cover (probably the best cover since the similar image on the old Unicorn CD of symphonies 10 and 21). On to symphonies 21 and 26 next.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 14, 2017, 02:06:46 AM
Hm. You make quite a case for the Walker Eighth, Jeffrey. I'll revisit it today. Give my regards to your poor wife...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 14, 2017, 06:11:26 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 14, 2017, 02:06:46 AM
Hm. You make quite a case for the Walker Eighth, Jeffrey. I'll revisit it today. Give my regards to your poor wife...

Will do Johan!
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on October 28, 2017, 05:00:04 PM
My Walker 8/21/26 arrived this week, without incident for once. Hurrah! Anyway i haven't had time to listen to 21 or 26 yet,  but really enjoyed Walker's Eighth, a very tight reading that never lets the tension lag. One feature will take getting used to: the trombone dissonance at the very end is subdued and mysterious instead of biting and menacing as in the Groves. I haven't seen the score so I really don't know whether it was written pianissimo as it seems to be played here. Also, the five sections of the work are not tracked separately as on EMI - though this IMO is not a loss at all as I can't imagine ever wanting to listen to less than the whole work.

I'm not sure when I'll have a chance to listen to the other two works on the disc - looking forward especially to #21 though, as it's the one Brian symphony I've never heard.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2017, 05:05:13 AM
Quote from: krummholz on October 28, 2017, 05:00:04 PM
One feature will take getting used to: the trombone dissonance at the very end is subdued and mysterious instead of biting and menacing as in the Groves.

Rising horn motif - fourth horn, muted, playing ppp (marked: remote)
Trombone chord: also muted: sforzando, dying down to ppp

The trombone chord is also accompanied by a pp tamtam stroke.

Those final bars are marked molto rit. and niento....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on October 29, 2017, 12:46:08 PM
Thank you, Johan. I just listened to the ending again. To my ears the trombone chord does not sound sforzando at all, just pp, then dying below that level. That first tam-tam stroke, on the other hand, is very audible, something I had not noticed before.

Now for #21... :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Alek Hidell on October 29, 2017, 05:28:00 PM
Now that all the Brian symphonies have been recorded, is there an up-to-date listing of which recordings are available for each one? (And when I say "available," I don't necessarily mean "in print" but simply able to be found at a reasonable cost.)

I looked over the list at the HBS website (http://www.havergalbrian.org/discography-by-work.php (http://www.havergalbrian.org/discography-by-work.php)) but it does not seem to be accurate (or up-to-date, at any rate). For instance, it does not list the Brabbins recording of 5, 19, and 27. (The site lists no recording of 27 at all.)

I bet there are Brianites here who can list at least one recorded performance of each of the 32. Would it be too presumptuous of me to ask for such a list? :-\
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2017, 05:38:39 PM
Quote from: Alek Hidell on October 29, 2017, 05:28:00 PM
I bet there are Brianites here who can list at least one recorded performance of each of the 32. Would it be too presumptuous of me to ask for such a list? :-\

The odd numbers/letters at the end of each line are my CD catalog numbers.

BRIAN   SYMPHONY #1 D MINOR "GOTHIC" NAXOS" (1927) LENARD   CSR BRATISLAVA   PUR19
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #1 D MINOR "GOTHIC (LIVE 1966) (1927)   BOULT   BBC SO   S-26
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #1 D MINOR "GOTHIC (LIVE 2011) (1927)   BRABBINS   BBC WALES BBC CONCERT   S-25
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #2 E MINOR (1930-31) ROWE   MOSCOW SO   1036
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #2 E MINOR (1930-31) MACKERRAS   BBC SO   S-323
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #2 E MINOR (1930-31) BRABBINS   ROYAL SCOTTISH NAT O   S-654
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #3 C SHARP MINOR (1931-32)   FRIEND   BBC SO   518
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #3 C SHARP MINOR (1931-32)   POPE   NEW PHILHARMONIA   S-324
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #4 "DAS SIEGESLIED" (1932-33) LEAPER   CSR BRATISLAVA   789
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #4 "DAS SIEGESLIED" (1932-33) POOLE   LPO   S-325
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #5 "WINE OF SUMMER" (1937)   POPE   NEW PHILHARMONIA   S-325
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #5 "WINE OF SUMMER" (1937)   BRABBINS   ROYAL SCOTTISH NAT O   S-543
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #6 "SINFONIA TRAGICA" (1948) FREDMAN   LPO   PUR88
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #6 "SINFONIA TRAGICA" (1948)   WALKER   NEW RUSSIA STATE SO   S-558
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #7 C MAJOR (1948)   MACKERRAS   ROYAL LIVERPOOL   393
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #8 B FLAT MINOR (1949)   GROVES   ROYAL LIVERPOOL   G22
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #8 B FLAT MINOR (1949)   FREDMAN    RPO   S-256
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #8 B FLAT MINOR (1949)   WALKER   NEW RUSSIA STATE SO   S-685
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #9 A MINOR (1953)   GROVES   ROYAL LIVERPOOL   G22
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #9 A MINOR (1953)   DEL MAR   LSO   S-27
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #10 C MINOR (1953-54)   LOUGHRAN   LEICESTERSHIRE SCHOOLS SO   572 S-457
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #10 C MINOR (1953-54)   BRABBINS   ROYAL SCOTTISH NAT O   S-23
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #11 (1954) LEAPER   NATIONAL SO IRELAND   1035
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #11 (1954) NEWSTONE   LSO   S-27
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #12 (1957) LEAPER   CSR BRATISLAVA   789
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #13 C MAJOR (1959) BRABBINS   ROYAL SCOTTISH NATIONAL O   S-269
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #14 F MINOR (1959-60) BRABBINS   ROYAL SCOTTISH NAT O   S-654
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #14 F MINOR (1959-60) DOWNES   LSO   S-256
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #15 A MAJOR (1960) ROWE   NATIONAL SO IRELAND   1035
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #16 (1960) FREDMAN   LPO   PUR88
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #17 (1960-61)   LEAPER   NATIONAL SO IRELAND   1038
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #18 (1961) FRIEND   BBC SCOTTISH   861
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #19 E MINOR (1961) BRABBINS   ROYAL SCOTTISH NAT O   S-543
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #20 (1962) PENNY   NSO UKRAINE   1037
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #21 (1963) PINKETT   LEICESTERSHIRE SCHOOLS SO   572 S-457
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #21 (1963) WALKER   NEW RUSSIA STATE SO   S-685
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #22 "SYMPHONIA BREVIS" (1964-65) HELTAY   LEICESTERSHIRE SCHOOLS SO   S-157 S-457
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #22 "SYMPHONIA BREVIS" (1964-65) WALKER   NEW RUSSIA STATE SO   S-341
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #23 (1965) WALKER   NEW RUSSIA STATE SO   S-341
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #24 D MAJOR (1965) WALKER   NEW RUSSIA STATE SO   S-341
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #25 A MINOR (1965-66) PENNY   NSO  UKRAINE   1037
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #26 (1966) WALKER   NEW RUSSIA STATE SO   S-685
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #27 C MINOR (1966) BRABBINS   ROYAL SCOTTISH NAT O   S-543
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #28 (SINFONIA IN C MINOR) (1967)   WALKER   NEW RUSSIA STATE SO   S-558
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #28 (SINFONIA IN C MINOR) (1967)   STOKOWSKI   NEW PHILHARMONIA   S-277
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #29 E FLAT (1967) WALKER   NEW RUSSIA STATE SO   S-558
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #30 B FLAT MINOR (1967)   BRABBINS   ROYAL SCOTTISH   S-23
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #31 (1968) MACKERRAS   ROYAL LIVERPOOL   393
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #31 (1968) WALKER   NEW RUSSIA STATE SO   S-558
BRIAN   SYMPHONY #32 A FLAT (1968) LEAPER   NATIONAL SO IRELAND   1038


Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Alek Hidell on October 29, 2017, 05:43:33 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 29, 2017, 05:38:39 PM
The odd numbers/letters at the end of each line are my catalog numbers.

...(list) ...

Sarge

I salute you, Sarge! :) You were one of the ones I hoped to hear from. Thanks very much!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 29, 2017, 09:37:38 PM
I'd like to add: visit the websites of Lyrita, Hyperion, Dutton, Heritage, Klassic Haus, Testament and Naxos for more info (and EMI, although the CD with 7, 8, 9 and 31 won't be listed, I think).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on October 30, 2017, 01:52:58 AM
You can add to that list of commercially available symphonies the 1956 premiere performance of Sinfonia Tragica, Royal Opera House Orchestra conducted by Douglas Robinson, issued last year on CRQ Editions CRQ CD268.  It's on a disc issued as a tribute to Robert Simpson and is coupled with Simpson conducting Beethoven's Eroica.  It's a basic issue, burned to order and without programme notes, but it includes an interesting recorded talk by Simpson justifying his fresh (for those days) approach to the Eroica, stripping off a lot of minor amendments added by later editors and using a smaller than normal orchestra.  It's available from: http://crqeditions.co.uk/crqeditions.php
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 30, 2017, 01:59:39 AM
Good call! I own that CD.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on November 01, 2017, 11:28:22 PM
CD listings are up to date on the website, including the CRQ 1966 Robinson Tragica, and the 24-CD Warner Classics box of Sir Charles Groves' British Music recordings, which includes his interpretations of symphonies 8 and 9.

Links in each entry take you direct to the specific record company website page for the disc concerned, and to HBS website articles about the music, where relevant.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 01, 2017, 11:30:40 PM
Ta, Martyn!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2018, 07:36:07 AM
Turned on BBC Radio 3 yesterday afternoon to hear some wonderful music, then with an abrupt shift of mood in the music, I realised that I was listening to the end of the first part of Havergal Brian's 'Gothic Symphony' (Brabbins recording) - it reaffirmed my sense of this work's greatness. Now listening to the Boult recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 24, 2018, 07:40:47 AM
Nice!

(Check out my FB page, Jeffrey...)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2018, 09:11:24 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 24, 2018, 07:40:47 AM
Nice!

(Check out my FB page, Jeffrey...)

Will do Johan. Thanks.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on January 30, 2018, 01:43:04 PM
It looks like I'm the first among us to look at the HBS website news column in the last nine days!
http://www.havergalbrian.org/news.php?id=30
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 30, 2018, 01:58:08 PM
Quote from: Augustus on January 30, 2018, 01:43:04 PM
It looks like I'm the first among us to look at the HBS website news column in the last nine days!
http://www.havergalbrian.org/news.php?id=30 (http://www.havergalbrian.org/news.php?id=30)

Excellent! Well spotted!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Alek Hidell on January 30, 2018, 06:16:56 PM
I'm very late in replying, for which please accept my apologies - but thanks to those others besides Sarge (whom I did already thank) who provided more information about recordings of the symphonies.

Thanks in particular to hbswebmaster for updating the site! From my lips to your ears ...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 31, 2018, 11:16:25 AM
Quote from: Augustus on January 30, 2018, 01:43:04 PM
It looks like I'm the first among us to look at the HBS website news column in the last nine days!
http://www.havergalbrian.org/news.php?id=30

Very pleasing to have another 7 & 16.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on February 01, 2018, 10:10:21 AM
While this is exciting news, it does leave me in a dilemma. I've already got a recording of No. 7, and No. 16 is available on Lyrita with No. 6 and an Arnold Cooke symphony. I am still swaying towards going for the Lyrita, as I really don't expect a new Cooke recording any time soon, and it's always good to add new composers to my music collection.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: André on February 01, 2018, 10:58:57 AM
How is # 7 ? I would imagine it's a large scale work, since # 16 is relatively short.

It's one of the few Brian symphonies I don't have (others are 4, 14, 15, 20, 25, 31 and 32).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on February 01, 2018, 11:25:28 AM
Quote from: André on February 01, 2018, 10:58:57 AM
How is # 7 ? I would imagine it's a large scale work, since # 16 is relatively short.

It's in 4 movements (or 5, depending how you count) and the old Mackerras recording takes 43 minutes.  Malcolm MacDonald thought it was one of his finest; I must say that the 1st movement, at least, is mighty impressive.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: André on February 01, 2018, 11:47:33 AM
Thanks, Dave ! This pretty much seals the deal, I'd say  ;).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on March 01, 2018, 05:02:46 PM
I am currently listening to toccata classics "Brian: Orchestral Music, vol. 2 Music from the operas" and am enjoying this so much.  I really want to hear more opera from him.  I have The Tigers opera which I greatly enjoy but need to relisten since it's been awhile. 

So this leads me to a few random questions I am pondering:

1. Did HBS get the funds to record Faust?
2. What is your favorite orchestral work of Brian that is not a symphony?
3. What do you wish he would have written or would have survived?  For me this is Prometheus Unbound because I adore the story and love his works from that period.  Sure hope it either resurfaces or we at least get an approximation to satiate me.  (eg: John Pickard arranging it based on the extant elements and knowledge of his style in that period). 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 01, 2018, 09:37:28 PM
Will reply later today. Yes, that volume 2 is pure gold.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 03, 2018, 05:03:19 AM
Re Faust Fund, last time I looked they're almost there. As for non-symphonic favourites, that's a hard one. I love the Third English Suite very much. That might be my favourite. Though I love the concertos, symphonic poems and many songs just as much... And the Prologue to Faust is among the best things Brian ever did. I am with you regarding Prometheus Unbound.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 23, 2018, 08:16:46 AM
After being offline for around five months (life is still possible,believe it,or nor?!) after my pc packed up;I'm finally back,with the cheapest one in the store! Good points,so far. It was very small & easy to carry home;and the quietest one I've owned so far! How long it will last is another matter!
But the important bit,now! While I was offline I still couldn't resist the urge to spend some money on cd's. Well,I just couldn't resist the recent cd of Symphonies 8,21 & 26,anymore! Luckily for me :),but not for my bank balance :(,there was still one chap (or chap-ess?) who sends out paper lists :o :o :o and accepts cheques! :) Anyway,to cut a long (continues until page 94! ;D) .........I was very impressed by the performances. Obviously the sound quality is an advance. The opening of the eighth seems a tad quicker than on the Groves recording. I was a bit surprised by it,after the Groves! Overall,I thought it was a very satisfying interpretation. The twenty first aroused considerable interest,because it was,as it was for many others,one of the first (third,in my case;after Schmidt's Gothic) Brian symphonies I ever heard. Also,the fact that it was a schools orchestra;which made for a particularly interesting comparison.  It was wonderful to hear it in such excellent sound. The clarity of the sound,the gossamer textures in the more playful moments. That said,I am sure John will be pleased to hear that I do feel that the LSSO performance has more of that gossamer playfulness and fleet footed-ness. In fact,if the LSSO had been able to enjoy the technical quality of this recording,I think their's would still be my favourite recording of this symphony......and possibly,still is? The Russian orchestra seem to take a less nimble footed approach. That said,they are both very good;and a fine complement to one another. Isn't it wonderful to be able to enjoy the luxury of these comparisons?!I am delighted to hear that the Seventh is going to receive a new recording,as it is one of my favourites. As to the twenty sixth. I have to say,I have left it till least,because it is not one of my favourites. That said,I am obviously very pleased that it has received a commercial recording. I am going to have to listen to it again. Maybe,I will crack it one day. For me,the next Brian symphony I enjoy after No 21,or even 22 (?) is No 30.

Wait a minute! Did someone say that the Faust fund has nearly reached it's target?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course,I did 'disappear' a bit before my pc konked out..........being rather embarassed about not ordering,or buying the cd. I think I justified it by telling myself,repeatedly,that I was quite happy with Groves eighth and the LSSO twenty-first;and didn't really like the twenty-sixth that much! Well,you've got to have an excuse!! ::) :-[
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 23, 2018, 10:11:39 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 23, 2018, 08:16:46 AM
After being offline for around five months

Welcome back!

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 23, 2018, 12:23:37 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 23, 2018, 10:11:39 AM
Welcome back!

Sarge

+1

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 23, 2018, 01:53:46 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on March 23, 2018, 12:23:37 PM
+1

:)

+2

(I think that the final movement of No. 21 really is better in the Naxos, btw.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 23, 2018, 03:45:04 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 23, 2018, 10:11:39 AM
Welcome back!

Sarge
+3  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on March 24, 2018, 03:37:27 AM
Thanks! It's nice to be back here! You may well be right about the final movement of No 21,and probably are. I have no problem with the performances,however. I think they are both very fine interpretations. Each having an entirely valid perspective. To be honest the Vivace is where the LSSO still seem to score for me (looking it up,this time,instead of trying to rely on memory! ::)). Apart from that,I think I prefer the Russian performance. The sound quality,the strings. It really does make a difference. Although,I think the collection on the Heritage 2 cd set will still provide pleasurable,and insightful, listening to HB fans for years to come. I can see the set reaching high prices too,s/h,when it is finally deleted from the catalogue. I think their recording of the tenth still reigns supreme,though! A Brian classic,imho. (I am always keeping a look out for a s/h copy of the Forlane set. I have the recordings and liner notes;but one of the cd's,in the s/h set I bought,had a fault!! :() It will be interesting to see what they do with No 7. I'm glad they are going to record it. I think the Mackerras recording was very good;but Newstone was even better. However, if it came to the crunch,the third would be top of my list on the,"needs a new recording list";as the Hyperion recording wasn't one of their best. I suppose it's more expensive to record,though? No matter though,like most here,I've got the excellent Klassic Haus restoration of the Pope third. I wonder if a studio recording of Das Siegeslied will,eventually,emerge,too? I keep hoping Testament will come up trumps (for example?). And I would love an "official" release of the Ole Schmidt Gothic. Still my favourite,because it's the first one (like many other people) I ever heard. The sound of that fainting choirboy,too......preserved for posterity! ??? ;D

Jumping the gun a bit,of course,here.........................as usual!! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 17, 2018, 02:31:07 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on March 23, 2018, 08:16:46 AM
After being offline for around five months (life is still possible,believe it,or nor?!) after my pc packed up;I'm finally back,with the cheapest one in the store! Good points,so far. It was very small & easy to carry home;and the quietest one I've owned so far! How long it will last is another matter!
But the important bit,now! While I was offline I still couldn't resist the urge to spend some money on cd's. Well,I just couldn't resist the recent cd of Symphonies 8,21 & 26,anymore! Luckily for me :),but not for my bank balance :(,there was still one chap (or chap-ess?) who sends out paper lists :o :o :o and accepts cheques! :) Anyway,to cut a long (continues until page 94! ;D) .........I was very impressed by the performances. Obviously the sound quality is an advance. The opening of the eighth seems a tad quicker than on the Groves recording. I was a bit surprised by it,after the Groves! Overall,I thought it was a very satisfying interpretation. The twenty first aroused considerable interest,because it was,as it was for many others,one of the first (third,in my case;after Schmidt's Gothic) Brian symphonies I ever heard. Also,the fact that it was a schools orchestra;which made for a particularly interesting comparison.  It was wonderful to hear it in such excellent sound. The clarity of the sound,the gossamer textures in the more playful moments. That said,I am sure John will be pleased to hear that I do feel that the LSSO performance has more of that gossamer playfulness and fleet footed-ness. In fact,if the LSSO had been able to enjoy the technical quality of this recording,I think their's would still be my favourite recording of this symphony......and possibly,still is? The Russian orchestra seem to take a less nimble footed approach. That said,they are both very good;and a fine complement to one another. Isn't it wonderful to be able to enjoy the luxury of these comparisons?!I am delighted to hear that the Seventh is going to receive a new recording,as it is one of my favourites. As to the twenty sixth. I have to say,I have left it till least,because it is not one of my favourites. That said,I am obviously very pleased that it has received a commercial recording. I am going to have to listen to it again. Maybe,I will crack it one day. For me,the next Brian symphony I enjoy after No 21,or even 22 (?) is No 30.

Wait a minute! Did someone say that the Faust fund has nearly reached it's target?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course,I did 'disappear' a bit before my pc konked out..........being rather embarassed about not ordering,or buying the cd. I think I justified it by telling myself,repeatedly,that I was quite happy with Groves eighth and the LSSO twenty-first;and didn't really like the twenty-sixth that much! Well,you've got to have an excuse!! ::) :-[

Very kind. However, symphony 10 is relatively easy to play but 21 is more of a stretch for kids - exposed passages, harder string parts etc. 21 was never going to be as good as 10 on the Unicorn LP. Impossible. I've not heard the Naxos 21 but if it doesn't run rings around the Unicorn performance the orchestra should hang their collective heads in shame. I must get it, I like the piece.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on April 27, 2018, 04:30:26 PM
What is your favorite CD of Havergal Brian's music?  For me, I think it might be this one:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51qtLCAWCiL._SS500.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/Havergal-Brian-Orchestral-Pieces-Tigers/dp/B001UK51FS

It is just such a gorgeous disc.  Though I might have works of his I like more, this disc is one I am constantly amazed by its depth, range, and beauty.  It is just such a gorgeous disc.  Though I might have works of his I like more, this disc is one I am constantly amazed by its depth, lyricism, range, and beauty.  Gargoyles for example, so beautiful!  This seems like an hour long symphony.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: John Whitmore on April 28, 2018, 01:26:02 AM
This was reissued by Heritage. A nice CD well recorded but the orchestral playing is not premier league. Still worth buying though.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphonic-Movements-Tigers-Havergal-Brian/dp/B00K1LJRAM
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 28, 2018, 01:44:36 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 27, 2018, 04:30:26 PM
What is your favorite CD of Havergal Brian's music?  For me, I think it might be this one:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51qtLCAWCiL._SS500.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/Havergal-Brian-Orchestral-Pieces-Tigers/dp/B001UK51FS

It is just such a gorgeous disc.  Though I might have works of his I like more, this disc is one I am constantly amazed by its depth, range, and beauty.  It is just such a gorgeous disc.  Though I might have works of his I like more, this disc is one I am constantly amazed by its depth, lyricism, range, and beauty.  Gargoyles for example, so beautiful!  This seems like an hour long symphony.
Groves's LP/CD of symphonies 8 and 9 is my favourite plus the LSSO Unicorn/Heritage version of Symphony 10.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 28, 2018, 02:46:34 AM
That Tigers disc is a testament to Brian's incredible range. Yes, it's certainly one of my favourite recordings. I concur with vandermolen on LSSO 10 and Groves 8 & 9. Among newer recordings I thoroughly enjoy the Brabbins disc with 10, 30, Concerto for Orchestra and Third English Suite.

P.S. The closing pages of the Concerto really have the 'roof-raising' quality which Malcolm MacDonald ascribes to the ending of Symphony No. 20, wrongly, in my opinion. Brian is a tad too concise there for that sensation really to materialise inside this listener.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Daverz on April 28, 2018, 03:29:24 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 28, 2018, 02:46:34 AM
That Tigers disc is a testament to Brian's incredible range. Yes, it's certainly one of my favourite recordings. I concur with vandermolen on LSSO 10 and Groves 8 & 9.

The new Alexander Walker recording of 8 sounds hugely different from the Groves, much punchier, yet I really like them both.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on May 02, 2018, 01:51:12 AM
Does anyone know a release date for the Dutton disc of "The Vision of Cleopatra"?  It seems to have been sitting in the Dutton vaults for an uncharacteristically long time?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 02, 2018, 03:13:37 AM
Quote from: Daverz on April 28, 2018, 03:29:24 AM
The new Alexander Walker recording of 8 sounds hugely different from the Groves, much punchier, yet I really like them both.
Me too
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Biffo on May 02, 2018, 04:13:03 AM
The Heritage issue of The Tigers disc can be had from Presto Classical at less than a half of Amazon.co.uk's price. It is also available on Spotify.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: SymphonicAddict on May 02, 2018, 09:25:52 AM
Recently I've played In Memoriam from this recording:

(https://i.scdn.co/image/2a87167cef6ec338d051f67b11a63d5235cc55fb)

Wow! This is astounding. I fell in love with it instantly. The kind of works that appeals to me hugely. A true tribute to some friend that passed away or a solemn event (it's not completely specified).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 02, 2018, 09:40:09 AM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on May 02, 2018, 09:25:52 AM
Recently I've played In Memoriam from this recording:

(https://i.scdn.co/image/2a87167cef6ec338d051f67b11a63d5235cc55fb)

Wow! This is astounding. I fell in love with it instantly. The kind of works that appeals to me hugely. A true tribute to some friend that passed away or a solemn event (it's not completely specified).
A great work and a great disc IMHO.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: SymphonicAddict on May 02, 2018, 10:16:52 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 02, 2018, 09:40:09 AM
A great work and a great disc IMHO.

No doubt it is.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on May 03, 2018, 12:40:19 AM
Quote from: Augustus on May 02, 2018, 01:51:12 AM
Does anyone know a release date for the Dutton disc of "The Vision of Cleopatra"?  It seems to have been sitting in the Dutton vaults for an uncharacteristically long time?

According to the latest HB society newsletter it should be out in June.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 01, 2018, 01:56:55 PM
Today I listened to a work of his that caught my attention: the English Suite Nr. 3 (from the Dutton disc).

It's a work imbued with magic and a sense of antiquity. I especially liked The Stonebreaker, a real stunner, which depicts perfectly that sense of something antique, like an old knightly English scene. The sonics are splendid and very vivid.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 01, 2018, 02:02:23 PM
That Third English Suite is one my favourite Brian pieces. It has the same magic you can experience in his opera The Tigers.
Suite:
https://youtu.be/w789C7kOpzM (https://youtu.be/w789C7kOpzM)

Tigers:
https://youtu.be/rY-7KQUwe2I (https://youtu.be/rY-7KQUwe2I)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 01, 2018, 02:24:11 PM
I will surely hear that work too! This is a Brian's more approachable side, at least to me, before listening to the symphonies again.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 01, 2018, 05:33:37 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 01, 2018, 02:02:23 PM
That Third English Suite is one my favourite Brian pieces. It has the same magic you can experience in his opera The Tigers.
https://youtu.be/w789C7kOpzM (https://youtu.be/w789C7kOpzM)

Wow, lovely!  It made me realize something about HB.  He transcends time.  This sounds so contemporary in some places but also traditional.  It's hard to place it in time and era.  You have 19th century fanfares next to minimalist ostinatos.  There are Germanic qualities and Victorian qualities too.  But all of it is brilliant, entertaining, and commands listener's attention.  There are very few composers that traverse such a wide range yet I have never heard something by them I didn't marvel at.  BUT, I still wonder does he have mass appeal or am I a connoisseur...will Brian ever be more than a niche?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 01, 2018, 09:59:57 PM
Brian is an amazing composer. He deserves a wider audience. In a few weeks' time the first part of my very ambitious first novel will be published. The work is imbued with Brian's spirit and even its structure turned out Gothic-like. I will do everything in my power to use my 'platform' to spread the word...

Through the Eye of the Cyclone 1
Nether Hemisphere

(https://images.tbr.mindbus.nl/libris/book/cover/9789028427495?hash=2c3632d&width=170)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 01, 2018, 10:07:59 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 01, 2018, 09:59:57 PM
Brian is an amazing composer. He deserves a wider audience. In a few weeks' time the first part of my very ambitious first novel will be published. The work is imbued with Brian's spirit and even its structure turned out Gothic-like. I will do everything in my power to use my 'platform' to spread the word...

Through the Eye of the Cyclone 1
Nether Hemisphere

(https://images.tbr.mindbus.nl/libris/book/cover/9789028427495?hash=2c3632d&width=170)

V exciting news about the novel Johan. All success to it.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 01, 2018, 10:11:19 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 01, 2018, 10:07:59 PM
V exciting news about the novel Johan. All success to it.  :)
Thanks, Jeffrey. Yes, these are exciting time. The launch will be on 1 September in Amsterdam. A few days before that I'll be on Dutch radio. My life is about to change.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 02, 2018, 02:51:46 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 01, 2018, 10:11:19 PM
Thanks, Jeffrey. Yes, these are exciting time. The launch will be on 1 September in Amsterdam. A few days before that I'll be on Dutch radio. My life is about to change.
Looking forward to the English translation Johan.
I hope that you won't forget about us when you acquire international celebrity status.
8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 02, 2018, 03:01:41 AM
Let me first become a national celebrity... When the whole work is finished I hope it will be translated into German and English. We'll have to wait and see! Oh, and I never forget my friends - at the launch people from all stages of my life will be present, from primary and secondary school until today... It will be a very diverse gathering.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 02, 2018, 04:31:20 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 02, 2018, 03:01:41 AM
Let me first become a national celebrity... When the whole work is finished I hope it will be translated into German and English. We'll have to wait and see! Oh, and I never forget my friends - at the launch people from all stages of my life will be present, from primary and secondary school until today... It will be a very diverse gathering.
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 02, 2018, 06:42:41 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 01, 2018, 09:59:57 PM
Brian is an amazing composer. He deserves a wider audience. In a few weeks' time the first part of my very ambitious first novel will be published. The work is imbued with Brian's spirit and even its structure turned out Gothic-like. I will do everything in my power to use my 'platform' to spread the word...

Through the Eye of the Cyclone 1
Nether Hemisphere

(https://images.tbr.mindbus.nl/libris/book/cover/9789028427495?hash=2c3632d&width=170)

You're *That* J.Z. Herrenberg?  I thought you were just a fan of his or something!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 02, 2018, 06:49:33 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 02, 2018, 06:42:41 AM
You're *That* J.Z. Herrenberg?  I thought you were just a fan of his or something!
Funny!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 03, 2018, 05:05:55 PM
I have not gotten into the English Suites much, I must try them next. But I've been listening to another work on that same Dutton disc that has completely blown me away, the 30th Symphony. I'm becoming convinced that this may be Brian's masterpiece, at least among the symphonies. There isn't a single bar that doesn't advance the musical argument, despite the fact that there is so much going on. And that argument is one of the most cogent in all of Brian's symphonies. It's all cumulative, and builds toward that final awesome dissonance that resolves onto a bare fifth. Triumph or tragedy? It seems ambiguous, though I mean that in the best way.

Other thoughts about this work?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2018, 01:48:13 PM
I share your enthusiasm for No. 30. Yes, it hangs together very well, is full of ideas, and those final pages are tremendous. As for its being Brian's symphonic masterpiece, however, symphonies like 5, 6, 8, 16, 22, 30 and 31 are just as masterly and compelling in their cogency. And as someone who simply loves Brian's music, I like the remaining 24 just as much, of course, but not everything is on that same exalted level. Still, Brian is never boring and he is generally very brief, so you don't get the feeling he goes on and on and on...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 05, 2018, 06:26:48 AM
Hmmm... I count 25 remaining, or did you mean to cite another instead of #30 (again)?  ;)

In any case, I agree with your list of very compelling Brian symphonies and might even add #18 in there. #22, especially, vies in my book with #30, and Wine of Summer, though relatively early (for Brian), is really just a superb piece. I have to admit, though, that after listening to #30, #31 seems like a slight letdown. It is probably just me and I need a few more listens, but I find it a little tough to follow all the way through, and gives an impression of wandering in places. As I said, probably just lack of familiarity.

I have been listening to all 32 over the last month or so, in order, now that I have good recordings of them all. I'm finishing up the cycle today with #32, a work I've known for at least 20 years. Although I agree that they aren't all on the same exalted level as #30, there isn't a single one that I would consider uninteresting, or that doesn't contain some very worthwhile music. I tend to agree with MM that #14 is relatively weak, especially in the first couple of minutes, but once it really gets going there is a lot of fascinating development in it. Three works I am just getting to know, but that really fascinate me, are #26 through #28. And then there is the "valedictory" #29 with its quiet, almost resigned ending.

So much to explore and enjoy with this composer!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 05, 2018, 07:05:02 AM
Quote from: krummholz on August 05, 2018, 06:26:48 AM
Hmmm... I count 25 remaining, or did you mean to cite another instead of #30 (again)?  ;)

In any case, I agree with your list of very compelling Brian symphonies and might even add #18 in there. #22, especially, vies in my book with #30, and Wine of Summer, though relatively early (for Brian), is really just a superb piece. I have to admit, though, that after listening to #30, #31 seems like a slight letdown. It is probably just me and I need a few more listens, but I find it a little tough to follow all the way through, and gives an impression of wandering in places. As I said, probably just lack of familiarity.

I have been listening to all 32 over the last month or so, in order, now that I have good recordings of them all. I'm finishing up the cycle today with #32, a work I've known for at least 20 years. Although I agree that they aren't all on the same exalted level as #30, there isn't a single one that I would consider uninteresting, or that doesn't contain some very worthwhile music. I tend to agree with MM that #14 is relatively weak, especially in the first couple of minutes, but once it really gets going there is a lot of fascinating development in it. Three works I am just getting to know, but that really fascinate me, are #26 through #28. And then there is the "valedictory" #29 with its quiet, almost resigned ending.

So much to explore and enjoy with this composer!
You're right! 'My bad', as they say...
After #30 #31 will feel like small beer. But the work in itself has a superb ease. It goes through many moods - one of which is very angry and reminiscent of the preceding symphony - and the final peroration is both moving and uplifting. As for the other symphonies you mention: I love #18, too. And #27 and #28 are personal favourites, too...
As you say, every symphony has something interesting to say. I discovered Brian's music in the autumn of 1977, when I was 16 years old. I have been returning to this music ever since and have never been disappointed. It's strong and lively and imaginative. Long live Havergal!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on August 05, 2018, 12:23:24 PM
I too am hugely impressed with 30 - one of HB's very greatest. What other composer could write something like this at the age of - 92, wasn't it?

For me, the best of Brian's symphonies are 6, 10, 16 and 30 with 16 perhaps being the greatest of all.

Many others are almost as good - I've been listening to 28 a lot recently.

My 'top 4' make it easy for me to recommend the best of Brian to the uninitiated - I advise them to buy the Lyrita 6 & 16 and the Dutton 10 & 30, and to play these 2 discs repeatedly until either everything falls into place, and they 'get' HB as a major symphonist, or they really can't respond to the music - in which case they might as well give up on Brian altogether.

I've also long believed that the best way to publicise HB after the 2011 Proms 'Gothic', is for these four symphonies to be performed during the same Proms season. (Maybe even in the same concert! None of them lasts more than 20 minutes!)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 05, 2018, 06:14:18 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on August 05, 2018, 12:23:24 PM
I too am hugely impressed with 30 - one of HB's very greatest. What other composer could write something like this at the age of - 92, wasn't it?

For me, the best of Brian's symphonies are 6, 10, 16 and 30 with 16 perhaps being the greatest of all.

Many others are almost as good - I've been listening to 28 a lot recently.

My 'top 4' make it easy for me to recommend the best of Brian to the uninitiated - I advise them to buy the Lyrita 6 & 16 and the Dutton 10 & 30, and to play these 2 discs repeatedly until either everything falls into place, and they 'get' HB as a major symphonist, or they really can't respond to the music - in which case they might as well give up on Brian altogether.
I've also long believed that the best way to publicise HB after the 2011 Proms 'Gothic', is for these four symphonies to be performed during the same Proms season. (Maybe even in the same concert! None of them lasts more than 20 minutes!)

According to the HBS, #30 was finished in November 1967, so it looks like he would have been 91, but just a couple months shy of 92... so very close, Klaatu!

I shall have to give a few more listens to #16. I was very impressed with it, but only listened to it once this time through, not really enough to plumb its depths.

I'm not sure which Brian symphonies are best to recommend to the uninitiated... I think it may depend on their individual taste and musical background. To someone who loves expansive late romantic composers like Strauss and Mahler I would probably recommend #3, the most approachable I think of the "early" symphonies. #6 is very fine indeed and might work well too. The thing about Brian's later style is it is so jam-packed with contrapuntal workings-out and juxtapositions of contrasted material that it is easy to get "left behind" or even totally lost unless one listens very, very closely. So I think that people unused to music that requires total immersion are going to find Brian a tough nut to crack - you just can't listen to him casually while doing something else.

Of the later symphonies, perhaps #11 or #15 might be the easiest to grasp, though they are pretty atypical of Brian, especially #11. I think it might be his most lyrical symphony and also the most relaxed. So I might recommend that Marco Polo disc over the Lyrita 6 & 16.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 05, 2018, 10:38:07 PM
That disc with #11 and #15 also contains Doctor Merryheart and For Valour, two early symphonic poems. Why not add it to the Dutton and the Lyrita? It's a very appealing and, hopefully, persuasive CD. Being 'atypical' even for himself just proves Brian's range...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 07, 2018, 06:53:11 AM
Of course, brilliant solution! Recommend them all!  :D

Another thought about the available recordings... there seem to be at least two cases where Malcolm MacDonald's descriptions of the character of Brian's symphonies as given in the sleeve notes conflict with the music as performed.

The first case that struck me is in the first movement of #25, which MM describes as "fierce", "sinister", "martial", and compares it in mood to #18. In Andrew Penny's reading, there is certainly a hint of the sinister in the first subject and there are martial outbursts, but the effect as a whole is more muscular and athletic, and of course the new theme that first appears in the development section is meltingly lyrical. Then MM also describes the slow movement as having "more than a hint of bleakness", but I hear very little bleakness in this music, except perhaps in the handling of the oboe theme and the rather subdued march that ensues. Overall it seems nostalgic and somewhat elegiac, but working towards a serene conclusion.

The other case is #32, which MM describes as consisting of two halves, the first filled with "oppressive brooding" and the second setting against that a "tigerish energy" and "sane but not shallow" optimism. The opening of the first movement he describes as "gaunt and jagged". But in Leaper's hands there seems to be nothing very gaunt about this material, instead it flows smoothly from the start. There are a couple of forceful outbursts and the tempo is moderate (Allegretto seems about right), but the mood seems generally calm and positive. Even in the second movement with its hint of a funeral march (MM says unequivocally that the movement "encounters" an actual funeral march), there is little sense of brooding, perhaps rather of difficult and troubled times recollected in tranquility. Overall the symphony comes across in Leaper's reading as serene and very affirmative, though never superficially so.

Thoughts? Has anyone heard these works performed in a way more consistent with MM's descriptions?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 07, 2018, 07:07:56 AM
I think the explanation is quite simple: MM re-used what he had already written about these symphonies in his classic studies... Re #25 he is obviously reacting to the first performance of the work by the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra under John Canarina, recorded in June 1976. That performance certainly fits his description. The same goes for #32. The first professional performance was in 1978, with the Philharmonia Orchestra, conducted by Myer Fredman.
I have noticed this before. Another case is the funeral march in #12. Del Mar (in 1966) takes it granitically slow, which matches MM's description. But Leaper takes it much faster. MM once told me that he wanted that march even slower than Del Mar!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 07, 2018, 08:52:20 AM
Thanks Johan, that makes sense. Looking at the performance timings on the HBS website, Fredman did take the first movement of 32 quite a bit slower than Leaper, and the Adagio somewhat but not hugely slower. Interesting that Russell in the OCHSA performance in California took fully 3 minutes longer than Leaper for that slow movement! I wonder what that sounded like? Unfortunately no recording seems to exist. As to #25, the Canarina seems to be still extant on an Aries LP - but I haven't the equipment to play it. The Fredman 32 does not seem to have an extant recording. Are either of these available online anywhere?

I know, I know, probably on the site for HBS members only. I really ought to join the Society, now that I'm fully converted to the cause.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 07, 2018, 11:15:18 AM
Yes, you answered your own question! Join me, and together we will rule the galaxy... I mean: join the HBS! And you will be able to access and stream (almost) every radio recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 07, 2018, 02:01:10 PM
Whereas i usually agree with MM over his assessment of each symphony overall i often disagree with him about hisview of certain parts, as with 32, which i hear as fairly serene throughout (bearing in mind that hb's serene is probably bleaker than yoyrs or mine).
I suspect that MM's views were formed by reading the scores, and, in the same way that hb himself overestimated how long his symphonies would last, this led to MM overemphasising certain striking passages which in actual performance are more subordinate to the overall flow of the music.
I do think though that when the next recorded cycle of hb is recorded (i wish), that tempi could be slower on the whole.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 07, 2018, 02:05:15 PM
Good point! In many cases MM only had the scores, many symphonies were still unperformed. I also agree with you about the tempi: briskness is a contemporary trait, but Brian gains by slower tempi.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on September 12, 2018, 11:27:51 AM
Good to see that this CD is now in the pipeline!

https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7348
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 12, 2018, 01:01:35 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on September 12, 2018, 11:27:51 AM
Good to see that this CD is now in the pipeline!

https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7348 (https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7348)


Indeed! I hope to receive it tomorrow or Friday.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on September 12, 2018, 04:30:17 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 12, 2018, 01:01:35 PM

Indeed! I hope to receive it tomorrow or Friday.

FINALLY!! I've wanted to hear this for decades! 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on September 20, 2018, 12:18:51 PM
I think it's a stunning disc.  The first of the two choral pieces has a surprisingly Debussyan feel to it (or early Vaughan Williams?) and the purely orchestral works are finer than any version on Naxos or the old Hull Youth orch discs.  John Pickard has done a very sensitive bit of re-creation for the main work.  What do others think?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 20, 2018, 02:00:45 PM
I am just as impressed as you, Augustus. Great disc. The Vision of Cleopatra sounds like no-one else, including HB himself! The Fantastic Variations and For Valour get exciting and gripping readings. And the two choral pieces are very different, and very characteristic. Brian will never cease to amaze me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 26, 2018, 01:09:49 AM
I seem to have taken my eye of the ball and (sort of) missed this! I didn't realise this was such a substantial piece. I just looked it up on the HB website. It would be great to hear the Fantastic Variations and For Valour in professional performances;and perhaps,superior to the Naxos recordings (I seem to remember that the cd of symphonies 11 & 15,was one of the better ones,if,like me,you didn't warm to those recordings?!) And,crucially,for me (I didn't like the sound quality on some of those old Naxos cd's) what is the recording quality like? Is it equivalent to the best of Brabbins recordings. I remember the first volume of those Toccata cd's had a dry sound which diminished my enjoyment (the second volume was,thankfully,very good). Nice cover art,too! This all sounds like a very tempting and varied collection.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 26, 2018, 01:20:12 AM
The sound is terrific, cylgwin. Brabbins surpasses the competition in the Fantastic Variations and equals it in For Valour. The whole CD is a must for every Brianite.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 26, 2018, 02:08:38 AM
I'm going to have to buy it,aren't I?!! ::) ;D The review of a concert performance on the John Pickard website makes this sound even more tempting! I notice that,Angharad Lyddon,who "stole the show",as Cleopatra,is on the cd. The contemporary review describes the orchestration as "highly coloured",there's an orchestral 'Slave Dance' and "the cantata unfolds as a sequence of nominally
symphonic movements" "The outcome is highly audacious within the context of British music from this period" (from John Pickard's site).!!! This sounds very interesting,indeed!! This sounds quite a different kettle of fish than his setting of Psalm 23. Not as loud or astringent (in places) as his Das Siegeslied,I presume?!! ;D But Pickard suggests Brian probably had a look at the score of Salome. Although,I have seen Debussy mentioned,elsewhere!! And the two Herrick pieces. I didn't realise one was lost. It will be nice to hear these professionally performed! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 26, 2018, 02:09:11 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 26, 2018, 01:20:12 AM
The sound is terrific, cylgwin. Brabbins surpasses the competition in the Fantastic Variations and equals it in For Valour. The whole CD is a must for every Brianite.
Hmmm... this sounds increasingly tempting.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 26, 2018, 02:27:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 26, 2018, 02:09:11 AM
Hmmm... this sounds increasingly tempting.


Nocturnal smuggling is in order, Jeffrey...


The Vision of Cleopatra is, to these ears, sui generis. It doesn't even sound like Brian, though his onorthodox mind is there. It came as a big surprise to me. I have listened to some Bantock, but his language isn't individual enough to have stuck with me. So I cannot tell whether there is a Bantockian streak to the VoC. The orchestration by John Pickard is first-rate. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 26, 2018, 02:33:32 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 26, 2018, 02:27:47 AM

Nocturnal smuggling is in order, Jeffrey...


Most definitely Johan! I shall be putting complex procedural plans into place.
8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 26, 2018, 02:43:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 26, 2018, 02:33:32 AM
Most definitely Johan! I shall be putting complex procedural plans into place.
8)


??? :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on September 26, 2018, 02:48:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 26, 2018, 02:33:32 AM
Most definitely Johan! I shall be putting complex procedural plans into place.
8)
I was at home with Jeffrey in May; the trench to the window in the garden was a little too marked.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 26, 2018, 03:16:45 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 26, 2018, 02:48:29 AM
I was at home with Jeffrey in May; the trench to the window in the garden was a little too marked.


CD is an abbreviation of ColDitz.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 26, 2018, 09:03:32 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on September 26, 2018, 02:09:11 AM
Hmmm... this sounds increasingly tempting.
I could just about place a bet that vandermolen will be buying this cd!! ;D Incidentally,is a recording of Faust getting any nearer fruition? It must be terribly frustrating that the fund raising has stalled so near it's target (if it has?!). And will there be any more Brian from Naxos,I wonder?!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 26, 2018, 09:13:03 AM
Quote from: Christo on September 26, 2018, 02:48:29 AM
I was at home with Jeffrey in May; the trench to the window in the garden was a little too marked.
8) :) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 26, 2018, 09:14:07 AM
The Faust Fund has reached its target, cilgwyn. Watch this space...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 26, 2018, 09:58:20 AM
The next big HB event,then?!! ??? :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 27, 2018, 01:00:23 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 03, 2017, 04:08:57 AM
Yes,of course Newstone,not Pope! :-[ I usually check these things before posting,but I was preoccupied with getting some lunch!! ::)  (It also spoilt my Pope joke! ;D) To quote,Dundonnell, "Personally I would have liked a new recording of Psalm 23 and, perhaps, "In Memoriam";but he's obviously as pleased as you and I that these recordings are being made. So far,this is turning out to be another bumper year for Brian recordings! All you need now is that last 'bumper' donation to the Faust fund!!

Meanwhile,to recap,for anyone here who doesn't know. These works by Brian are being recorded by Dutton in July,by the Chorus & orchestra of the ENO under Martyn Brabbins: 

Overture "For Valour" (1902/06)
Fantastic Variations on an Old Rhyme (1907)
Cantata "The Vision of Cleopatra" for soprano, mezzo-soprano, contralto, tenor, chorus and orchestra(1908) (realised by John Pickard)
Two Choral Pieces for female voices and orchestra (formerly known as Two Herrick Songs) (1912)


And Naxos will be recording Symphonies 7 & 9!!!! ??? :o :o :o  Have you any idea when this will be happening,Johan?
And this was me alerting "anyone who doesn't know",to the Dutton recording,in May,last year!! ??? I was just thinking,after posting,that I was sure that a recording of symphony No 7 had been mentioned.................and No 9,too,apparently! I hope so! The Seventh is a favourite,the Ninth,maybe,more of a Cinderella amongst Brian symphonies,by comparison. I like this symphony,though;and the finale is one of Brian's best,and most thrilling,if memory serves me correctly. I haven't listened to it for a while. I'm going to have to put it on later (the Groves recording,I think) and remind myself! Incidentally,in his review of the emi recording,Rob Barnett actually regards this as less "thorny" than the eighth. I had some idea it was the other way around for most people! I find his suggestion of a kinship with Das Siegeslied interesting,"with its hyper-Handelian grandeur, braggart brass flurries and confident march flourishes" (Rob Barnett). I haven't heard Boult's recordings of Sibelius' tone poems,but it has always felt like a very taut performance."A nervous tetchiness"? Again,I'll have to listen to it again;but Groves certainly keeps it moving.

Read more: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/feb03/havergal_brian_emi.htm#ixzz5SI2pcygK
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on September 27, 2018, 06:37:11 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on September 26, 2018, 09:14:07 AM
The Faust Fund has reached its target, cilgwyn. Watch this space...

Yay!!  Now start the Prometheus Unbound reconstruction fund!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 27, 2018, 09:08:21 AM
After posting about the Ninth,regarding the possibility of a Naxos recording of Brian's Seventh and Ninth (?!) and just re-reading Rob Barnett's old review of the old  2 cd emi set of 8 & 9,I just had to listen to the Ninth,again. I haven't listened to his Ninth for a while. I used to listen to it allot,when I was young,courtesy of the original Lp,pictured here. I was rather intrigued by Barnett's description of it."The Ninth harks back twenty years to Brian's Fourth Das Siegeslied with its hyper-Handelian grandeur, braggart brass flurries and confident march flourishes". I must admit,I have never connected Brian's Ninth with Das Siegeslied;but the idea did pique my interest. He also compares Groves' conducting of the Ninth to "the nervous tetchiness of Boult's 1950s Vanguard-Omega performances of the Sibelius tone poems". I've never heard Boult's recordings of Sibelius but I can certainly sense some of that in the faster passages. Groves certainly keeps the whole craggy edifice tightly controlled.I'm also a bit surprised that he finds this symphony less thorny,and more approachable,than it's predecessor. I always had an idea that it was usually the other way around with allot of people. The Ninth seems to be a bit of a Cinderella among Brian's symphonies;but I've always liked it. This symphony doesn't waste any time. The opening bars pull you straight in and the seething tendrils of Brian's argument draw you inexorably along,right through to the triumphant finale,which has to be one of Brian's most memorable,and thrilling. I seem to remember actually picking up the needle,sometimes,and jumping to back,so as to hear that bit all over again. Not good for the Lp;but it really is one of Brian's most exciting and exhilarating endings. But the whole symphony feels so tightly hewn. I'm so glad I put it back on! :) :) :) :) :) :) I'm listening to it via the emi 2cd set,by the way. I just think that Lp photo of Brian is so good,I thought I'd post that image here instead!

(https://i.imgur.com/3hVueDr.jpg)

Old review! : http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/feb03/havergal_brian_emi.htm#ixzz5SJryemcY



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 27, 2018, 09:11:27 AM
I'm listening to the Groves eighth,now. These really were great performances! :) :) :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on September 27, 2018, 02:33:35 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 27, 2018, 09:08:21 AM
After posting about the Ninth,regarding the possibility of a Naxos recording of Brian's Seventh and Ninth (?!) and just re-reading Rob Barnett's old review of the old  2 cd emi set of 8 & 9,I just had to listen to the Ninth,again. I haven't listened to his Ninth for a while. I used to listen to it allot,when I was young,courtesy of the original Lp,pictured here. I was rather intrigued by Barnett's description of it."The Ninth harks back twenty years to Brian's Fourth Das Siegeslied with its hyper-Handelian grandeur, braggart brass flurries and confident march flourishes". I must admit,I have never connected Brian's Ninth with Das Siegeslied;but the idea did pique my interest. He also compares Groves' conducting of the Ninth to "the nervous tetchiness of Boult's 1950s Vanguard-Omega performances of the Sibelius tone poems". I've never heard Boult's recordings of Sibelius but I can certainly sense some of that in the faster passages. Groves certainly keeps the whole craggy edifice tightly controlled.I'm also a bit surprised that he finds this symphony less thorny,and more approachable,than it's predecessor. I always had an idea that it was usually the other way around with allot of people. The Ninth seems to be a bit of a Cinderella among Brian's symphonies;but I've always liked it. This symphony doesn't waste any time. The opening bars pull you straight in and the seething tendrils of Brian's argument draw you inexorably along,right through to the triumphant finale,which has to be one of Brian's most memorable,and thrilling. I seem to remember actually picking up the needle,sometimes,and jumping to back,so as to hear that bit all over again. Not good for the Lp;but it really is one of Brian's most exciting and exhilarating endings. But the whole symphony feels so tightly hewn. I'm so glad I put it back on! :) :) :) :) :) :) I'm listening to it via the emi 2cd set,by the way. I just think that Lp photo of Brian is so good,I thought I'd post that image here instead!

(https://i.imgur.com/3hVueDr.jpg)

Old review! : http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/feb03/havergal_brian_emi.htm#ixzz5SJryemcY

That is probably my favourite Brian disc. It reappears in a mini version in the Charles Groves boxed set.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on September 27, 2018, 04:10:15 PM
Grove's No. 8 and 9 was my intro to Brian.  I loved the tape and was fascinated by the description of the Gothic in the notes.  So when Marco Polo finally had a disc of the Gothic I was already interested in the composer but this disc was my introduction.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 28, 2018, 01:10:31 AM
What do you think of the Ninth,vandermolen? Or,at least remind me. The eighth always seems to be in a list of favourites. I hadn't listened to it a while and after reading Rob Barnett's rather old review,I had to have another listen. Off went the Kalman operetta and on went Brian No 9. I was thinking what a great symphony it was. I love that triumphant ending. The eighth is more unusual I suppose;but the Ninth is still a tremendous symphony. In fact,all the operettas got taken back upstairs,and I've been listening to Brian symphonies since yesterday.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 28, 2018, 09:09:44 AM
Quote from: relm1 on September 27, 2018, 04:10:15 PM
Grove's No. 8 and 9 was my intro to Brian.  I loved the tape and was fascinated by the description of the Gothic in the notes.  So when Marco Polo finally had a disc of the Gothic I was already interested in the composer but this disc was my introduction.
I seem to remember the Lyrita Lp had similarly tantalising descriptions,on the back, of as yet unrecorded,ambitious works on a vast scale!  My teenage mind just wanted to hear more!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on September 28, 2018, 11:10:56 AM
The Ninth is certainly among my favourites of the Brian symphonies. 8, 9 and 10 might be my favourites of the shorter symphonies that came after No. 7, his last lengthy symphony.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on September 30, 2018, 03:28:26 AM
Yes,the Ninth is,definitely,one of my favourite Brian symphonies,now!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 01, 2018, 05:05:49 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on September 28, 2018, 01:10:31 AM
What do you think of the Ninth,vandermolen? Or,at least remind me. The eighth always seems to be in a list of favourites. I hadn't listened to it a while and after reading Rob Barnett's rather old review,I had to have another listen. Off went the Kalman operetta and on went Brian No 9. I was thinking what a great symphony it was. I love that triumphant ending. The eighth is more unusual I suppose;but the Ninth is still a tremendous symphony. In fact,all the operettas got taken back upstairs,and I've been listening to Brian symphonies since yesterday.

I really like both symphonies 8 and 9 and that Groves disc was a revelation. The poetic and searching conclusion to Symphony 8 is very special to me but I rate No.9 (and 10) very highly as well-especially the ending of No.9 as you mentioned. I'm glad that it offered you some temporary distraction from Gilbert and Sullivan cilgwyn.  8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 08, 2018, 03:12:09 AM
My first listen to the new Dutton/Vision of Cleopatra disc has left me slightly underwhelmed.  The text of the vision is pretty dire.  Pickard's orchestration is first rate and the orchestra play well - good to hear the ENO orchestra get some well-deserved exposure.  The ENO chorus are strong but with a few too many "solo" voices in the group pushing to be heard I thought and not with ideally tight ensemble.  I need to listen to the work again - didn't like the tenor soloist either and found the Mezzo rather wobbly although the closing pages are very powerful.  Didn't like the rather naff vocal characterisation of the chorus in "The hags" - yes I get it - you are being hag(ish)......

For me this ticks a Brian-completist box (which I am) but would not be a must-hear for the uncommitted.  The "For Valour" and "Fantastic Variations" are both probably better than the previous recording but in fact both of those are pretty decent too.  Musically similar but the new disc is better recorded.  The Dutton sound is good but not demonstration class I thought.

Perhaps the 2nd listen will be more rewarding......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on October 08, 2018, 06:31:46 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 08, 2018, 03:12:09 AM
My first listen to the new Dutton/Vision of Cleopatra disc has left me slightly underwhelmed.  The text of the vision is pretty dire.  Pickard's orchestration is first rate and the orchestra play well - good to hear the ENO orchestra get some well-deserved exposure.  The ENO chorus are strong but with a few too many "solo" voices in the group pushing to be heard I thought and not with ideally tight ensemble.  I need to listen to the work again - didn't like the tenor soloist either and found the Mezzo rather wobbly although the closing pages are very powerful.  Didn't like the rather naff vocal characterisation of the chorus in "The hags" - yes I get it - you are being hag(ish)......

For me this ticks a Brian-completist box (which I am) but would not be a must-hear for the uncommitted.  The "For Valour" and "Fantastic Variations" are both probably better than the previous recording but in fact both of those are pretty decent too.  Musically similar but the new disc is better recorded.  The Dutton sound is good but not demonstration class I thought.

Perhaps the 2nd listen will be more rewarding......

Does it sound like early Brian or more like Pickard?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 08, 2018, 10:51:01 AM
Not familiar enough with Pickard as a composer to make that comparison.  Perhaps it sounds a fraction more polished as an orchestration - less quirky - than Brian often achieves........?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on October 08, 2018, 03:57:50 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on October 08, 2018, 10:51:01 AM
Not familiar enough with Pickard as a composer to make that comparison.  Perhaps it sounds a fraction more polished as an orchestration - less quirky - than Brian often achieves........?

But the same could be said of early Brian.  Polished but less quirky/individualistic than late Brian. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on October 09, 2018, 12:31:47 PM
Quote from: relm1 on October 08, 2018, 03:57:50 PM
But the same could be said of early Brian.  Polished but less quirky/individualistic than late Brian.

Fair comment. After a 2nd listen I'm liking the Vision quite a bit more.  The worst thing about is the libretto - which was "set" for the competition in which it was entered.  It gives the work a rather oddly furtive sense of the faintly erotic and actually leaves it very unbalanced it terms of its use of the solo parts.

I still think the orchestration is excellent in its own right but not a very accurate recreation of Brian's orchestral sound world - it is too sophisticated.  Brian at whatever stage of his career is a warts and all composer and orchestrator.

Not a must purchase for a Brian newbie but a no-brainer instant purchase for the already converted.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 29, 2018, 05:58:41 AM
Today I heard an extract of the 'Vision of Cleopatra' on Record Review on the radio ('The Death of Anthony and Cleopatra'). I thought that it was excellent, reminding me of both Vaughan Williams's one act opera 'Riders to the Sea' at one point and also, at times, of Granville Bantock. I read rather mixed reviews of the CD and had disregarded it until now. I have now ordered a copy, in a mad panic, before my New Year's resolution to buy less CDs comes into force (no comments please).
8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2018, 06:02:42 AM
I couldn't possibly comment...


I liked the CD. 'Cleopatra' is a quite unique piece for Brian. It is him, but he sounds very different.


Happy New Year!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 29, 2018, 06:04:28 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 29, 2018, 06:02:42 AM
I couldn't possibly comment...


I liked the CD. 'Cleopatra' is a quite unique piece for Brian. It is him, but he sounds very different.


Happy New Year!

I agree with what you say from the extract I heard.

And to you too Johan!
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 25, 2019, 01:55:18 PM
I suppose it's time to wake a sleeping dragon...

(https://b2b.naxosusa.com/Images/LoRes/CoverArt/8.573959.jpg)

Mind you, I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm not a fan of Brian's music, but it is fascinating to see the Brian fan club come back to life once there's the smell of a new recording around the corner. Almost like how a drop of blood in a piranha infested river triggers the demise of a wounded agouti. :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2019, 01:57:01 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 25, 2019, 01:55:18 PM
I suppose it's time to wake a sleeping dragon...

(https://b2b.naxosusa.com/Images/LoRes/CoverArt/8.573959.jpg)


As my daughter would write - OMG!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 25, 2019, 02:03:49 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2019, 01:57:01 PM

As my daughter would write - OMG!

:D

This announcement came courtesy of Brian in the 'New Releases' thread.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 25, 2019, 02:15:59 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 25, 2019, 01:55:18 PM
Mind you, I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm not a fan of Brian's music, but it is fascinating to see the Brian fan club come back to life once there's the smell of a new recording around the corner. Almost like how a drop of blood in a piranha infested river triggers the demise of a wounded agouti. :)

New Brian blood...cue the Jaws' theme  8)

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: ritter on March 25, 2019, 02:16:59 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 25, 2019, 01:55:18 PM
I suppose it's time to wake a sleeping dragon...

(https://b2b.naxosusa.com/Images/LoRes/CoverArt/8.573959.jpg)

Mind you, I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm not a fan of Brian's music, but it is fascinating to see the Brian fan club come back to life once there's the smell of a new recording around the corner. Almost like how a drop of blood in a piranha infested river triggers the demise of a wounded agouti. :)

https://youtu.be/QOkSvLqkafU
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 25, 2019, 02:26:04 PM
Quote from: ritter on March 25, 2019, 02:16:59 PM
https://youtu.be/QOkSvLqkafU

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 25, 2019, 02:15:59 PM
New Brian blood...cue the Jaws' theme  8)

Sarge

;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 25, 2019, 03:29:48 PM
Excellent!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 25, 2019, 05:48:30 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 25, 2019, 01:55:18 PM
I suppose it's time to wake a sleeping dragon...

(https://b2b.naxosusa.com/Images/LoRes/CoverArt/8.573959.jpg)

Mind you, I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm not a fan of Brian's music, but it is fascinating to see the Brian fan club come back to life once there's the smell of a new recording around the corner. Almost like how a drop of blood in a piranha infested river triggers the demise of a wounded agouti. :)
I will make it a mission to eventually turn you into one of them piranhas  >:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 25, 2019, 05:49:47 PM
Quote from: springrite on March 25, 2019, 05:48:30 PM
I will make it a mission to eventually turn you into one of them piranhas  >:D

Haha! Good luck with that. I've tried, goodness, have I tried to get into Brian, but I just can't.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 25, 2019, 05:54:42 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 25, 2019, 05:49:47 PM
Haha! Good luck with that. I've tried, goodness, have I tried to get into Brian, but I just can't.
It took me a couple of decades and now I love it!

All indications are: senility, dementia and early onset alzheimer's are all helpful!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on March 25, 2019, 06:01:10 PM
Quote from: springrite on March 25, 2019, 05:54:42 PM
It took me a couple of decades and now I love it!

All indications are: senility, dementia and early onset alzheimer's are all helpful!

:P
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 25, 2019, 06:26:15 PM
Quote from: springrite on March 25, 2019, 05:54:42 PM

All indications are: senility, dementia and early onset alzheimer's are all helpful!
True, how else can you stand it.

Anyway around 20 yrs ago Marco Polo boldly declared the plan for a Brian Cycle:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61ByRHFHENL._SX425_.jpg)

I wonder how many more installments they need to complete.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Papy Oli on March 26, 2019, 07:13:39 AM
not sure i have seen this mentioned earlier, so just in case, JPC has regrouped some of the Naxos releases in a boxset :

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/havergal-brian-symphonien-nr-1-the-gothic-1-2-4-6-8-12-11-15-17-18-20-26-28-29-31-32/hnum/7899127 (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/havergal-brian-symphonien-nr-1-the-gothic-1-2-4-6-8-12-11-15-17-18-20-26-28-29-31-32/hnum/7899127)

(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0730099111348.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on March 26, 2019, 08:19:59 AM
This new release puts me in a dilemma. Do I go for this new Naxos recording of No. 16 and have a second recording of No. 7 and The Tinker's Wedding, or do I still go for the Lyrita, have a second recording of No. 6, but also a symphony by Arnold Cooke?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2019, 08:25:06 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 26, 2019, 07:13:39 AM
not sure i have seen this mentioned earlier, so just in case, JPC has regrouped some of the Naxos releases in a boxset :

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/havergal-brian-symphonien-nr-1-the-gothic-1-2-4-6-8-12-11-15-17-18-20-26-28-29-31-32/hnum/7899127 (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/havergal-brian-symphonien-nr-1-the-gothic-1-2-4-6-8-12-11-15-17-18-20-26-28-29-31-32/hnum/7899127)

(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0730099111348.jpg)


Nice! I never would have thought it possible in the early 1980s, Brian-starved as I was.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2019, 08:26:37 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 26, 2019, 08:19:59 AM
This new release puts me in a dilemma. Do I go for this new Naxos recording of No. 16 and have a second recording of No. 7 and The Tinker's Wedding, or do I still go for the Lyrita, have a second recording of No. 6, but also a symphony by Arnold Cooke?


Go for the Lyrita. No. 6 is better there, too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on March 26, 2019, 09:27:29 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2019, 08:26:37 AM

Go for the Lyrita. No. 6 is better there, too.
And Arnold Cooke's Third is more than just a bonus, but worth every penny too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 26, 2019, 10:04:50 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 26, 2019, 08:19:59 AM
This new release puts me in a dilemma. Do I go for this new Naxos recording of No. 16 and have a second recording of No. 7 and The Tinker's Wedding, or do I still go for the Lyrita, have a second recording of No. 6, but also a symphony by Arnold Cooke?
Why not both?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on March 26, 2019, 11:00:18 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2019, 08:26:37 AM

Go for the Lyrita. No. 6 is better there, too.

I must admit I did find the Naxos 6 kind of underwhelming compared to the first performance of it I heard, on Radio 3 some time previously. Little details like the gong stroke at the end, are hardly audible in the Naxos recording. So I am tempted to give the Lyrita a go, yes.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2019, 11:05:23 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 26, 2019, 11:00:18 AM
I must admit I did find the Naxos 6 kind of underwhelming compared to the first performance of it I heard, on Radio 3 some time previously. Little details like the gong stroke at the end, are hardly audible in the Naxos recording. So I am tempted to give the Lyrita a go, yes.


You won't regret it. I have known this recording for more than 35 years now, it's seared into my heart. And - you get the great No. 16 plus Cooke 3 (as Christo pointed out).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 26, 2019, 02:24:57 PM
Quote from: Papy Oli on March 26, 2019, 07:13:39 AM
not sure i have seen this mentioned earlier, so just in case, JPC has regrouped some of the Naxos releases in a boxset :

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/havergal-brian-symphonien-nr-1-the-gothic-1-2-4-6-8-12-11-15-17-18-20-26-28-29-31-32/hnum/7899127 (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/havergal-brian-symphonien-nr-1-the-gothic-1-2-4-6-8-12-11-15-17-18-20-26-28-29-31-32/hnum/7899127)

(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0730099111348.jpg)
Looks like about 2/3 the way there. May be in the next 20 yrs it will be finished.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2019, 02:42:21 PM
Every symphony has now been recorded, but not all on the Naxos label...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 26, 2019, 02:54:05 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 25, 2019, 01:55:18 PM
I suppose it's time to wake a sleeping dragon...

(https://b2b.naxosusa.com/Images/LoRes/CoverArt/8.573959.jpg)

Mind you, I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm not a fan of Brian's music, but it is fascinating to see the Brian fan club come back to life once there's the smell of a new recording around the corner. Almost like how a drop of blood in a piranha infested river triggers the demise of a wounded agouti. :)

How exciting! I like both of those symphonies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on March 26, 2019, 04:53:11 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2019, 02:42:21 PM
Every symphony has now been recorded, but not all on the Naxos label...
But I want to hear the operas and oratorios  :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: André on March 26, 2019, 05:07:12 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on March 26, 2019, 02:24:57 PM
Looks like about 2/3 the way there. May be in the next 20 yrs it will be finished.

I think this JPC batch is made up of individual jewel cases (IOW the original cd releases), not a space-saving box with cardboard sleeves. A great deal all the same, though.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 26, 2019, 07:03:27 PM
As the Havergal Brian thread has sprung back to life I expect we'll soon get the usual 'don't know why you bother with HB', 'He's not a good composer/horrible/can't stand him' &c

Well 389 pages later I think there has to be a reason why we have so many pages on this thread, and why we constantly get reactions like those I caricatured above.

At the end of the Hyperion recording of Robert Simpson's 9th Symphony there is a talk by the composer (which itself has been roundly criticised by people on the Robert Simpson thread for Simpson's alleged arrogance). There Simpson says he would like to explain how his 9th Symphony works, though, he adds, no one will be convinced by the explanation unless they have already been convinced by the music. And I think those who criticise the tone of his talk are those who have been convinced by the music but don't want to like it and so reject his talk. My own feeling is that anyone who can write something as magnificent and compelling as Simpson's 9th deserves a few minutes of happy discussion of his work, Simpson, I think, was one of those highly talented people who sometimes forgot that almost everyone he met was less talented than he was. HB probably never forgot this, but never let it show either.

Anyway, I think that people who keeping on coming back to criticise Brian, or Simpson on the Simpson thread, are like the people who criticise the Simpson 9th talk, people who have been struck by the music but don't want to like it and keep on coming back to tell other people they shouldn't like it either.


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 26, 2019, 11:36:23 PM
Does anyone here know when symphonies 7 and 16 are to be released on Naxos please?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2019, 11:38:56 PM
In May, if I read that correctly.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 27, 2019, 05:53:15 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2019, 11:38:56 PM
In May, if I read that correctly.
Thanks Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on March 27, 2019, 07:21:44 AM
GMG is without doubt the most HB-friendly discussion space I've come across, and the active discussion about so many of these composers beyond the "standard repertoire" is a large reason why I find this forum a pleasant place to visit. And it says something that the Havergal Brian thread has 389 pages while threads for other, better-known composers lag far behind.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 27, 2019, 07:28:00 AM
Yes, it's quite incredible, so many pages devoted to a quirky, independent Briton... I started contributing to this thread in July 2007. And never looked back. Long may it flourish!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 27, 2019, 07:34:22 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on March 27, 2019, 07:21:44 AM
GMG is without doubt the most HB-friendly discussion space I've come across, and the active discussion about so many of these composers beyond the "standard repertoire" is a large reason why I find this forum a pleasant place to visit. And it says something that the Havergal Brian thread has 389 pages while threads for other, better-known composers lag far behind.
I think there is a certain mysticism to Brian's music and life. The guy was largely self-taught, really answered to no one, wrote music into his '90s and is about as non-mainstream as it gets. I don't even like his music yet I feel a strange attraction.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on March 27, 2019, 04:15:49 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 27, 2019, 07:28:00 AM
I started contributing to this thread in July 2007. And never looked back. Long may it flourish!

July?  But this thread started in June 2007.  I guess you're not as much a HB fan as I thought.   ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 27, 2019, 04:19:29 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 27, 2019, 04:15:49 PM
July?  But this thread started in June 2007.  I guess you're not as much a HB fan as I thought.   ::)
Sitting on the fence for an entire month! Shocking!!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 27, 2019, 11:18:37 PM
Gents, gents! In June 2007 I wasn't even a member... In July I came and joined and contributed.... And the rest is history.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on April 16, 2019, 08:55:35 AM
There is a review of the new Naxos disc here: https://artmusiclounge.wordpress.com/2019/04/10/walker-conducts-havergal-brian/
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 16, 2019, 12:02:40 PM
Quote from: Augustus on April 16, 2019, 08:55:35 AM
There is a review of the new Naxos disc here: https://artmusiclounge.wordpress.com/2019/04/10/walker-conducts-havergal-brian/

Very interesting and thanks for posting it. I have a higher opinion of Symphony 7 than the author of the review and look forward to the appearance of this CD.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 16, 2019, 12:04:35 PM
Quote from: Augustus on April 16, 2019, 08:55:35 AM
There is a review of the new Naxos disc here: https://artmusiclounge.wordpress.com/2019/04/10/walker-conducts-havergal-brian/ (https://artmusiclounge.wordpress.com/2019/04/10/walker-conducts-havergal-brian/)


That's quick! Will have a look...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on April 18, 2019, 02:37:51 AM
At least two misstatements in that review... the 7th was his last multi-movement work in the genre (presumably meaning: the symphony)? Almost, but not quite tonal? Seriously? And the author says that he had previously reviewed the Naxos 8, 21, and 26 disc last year, making that first statement even stranger. Ah well, at least a new Brian release is getting some attention... hopefully we shall soon see a review on Gramophone or MusicWeb International.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 18, 2019, 02:49:53 AM
I'm going to wait until,the only mail order shop I know of;which still sends out paper lists (Classics Direct!) sends me their list with "Naxos Offers",on it. Then I'll send off Ye Olde Cheque & paper letter,outlining my order!! After all,I might need them,if my pc goes down? And there may be Brianites out there,who don't have internet connections?!! :( And it just makes a change! Like old times?!! Oh,and I must buy one of those stamps you lick,too! Not those horrid,modern,self adhesive ones!! :o ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 18, 2019, 03:08:25 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 18, 2019, 02:49:53 AM
I'm going to wait until,the only mail order shop I know of;which still sends out paper lists (Classics Direct!) sends me their list with "Naxos Offers",on it. Then I'll send off Ye Olde Cheque & paper letter,outlining my order!! After all,I might need them,if my pc goes down? And there may be Brianites out there,who don't have internet connections?!! :( And it just makes a change! Like old times?!! Oh,and I must buy one of those stamps you lick,too! Not those horrid,modern,self adhesive ones!! :o ;D

I rejoined the Havergal Brian Society, mainly to be eligible for the Havergal Brian Society Mug to impress visitors to the house. I'm hoping that the new release of Symphony 7 and 16 (two of my favourites) will be available at a reduced rate for members.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on April 18, 2019, 04:22:08 AM
Available for pre-order on amazon.com in the US... impressive for a not-so-well-known composer! The date given is 9 May, which I assume is the release date and not necessarily the date THEY will have it available to ship.

Getting back to the Bailey review of #7... he says one thing with which I agree somewhat: that some features in the music seem put in "for effect and not for any particular musical reason". The author was referring to some of Brian's key changes, and there I would disagree, but passages like the last onslaught of brass and percussion in the 3rd movement do seem to me to come from the world of music theatre rather than the symphony. I have similar thoughts about the 6th symphony, which for all its being a wonderful piece, does seem to these ears to be more of a tone poem and less of a symphony... and of course it was apparently originally intended as an operatic prelude. The 8th, though, blows away all of those reservations for me. Yes it has elements of theatre in it, but they seem to be wedded to the purely musical in a way that works for me 100% as a symphony.

I was pleased to see Bailey's comments about the 16th though. He may not be a Brianite, but he does sound like a sympathetic and perceptive listener.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on April 18, 2019, 06:25:59 AM
Quote from: krummholz on April 18, 2019, 04:22:08 AM
Available for pre-order on amazon.com in the US... impressive for a not-so-well-known composer! The date given is 9 May, which I assume is the release date and not necessarily the date THEY will have it available to ship.

Getting back to the Bailey review of #7... he says one thing with which I agree somewhat: that some features in the music seem put in "for effect and not for any particular musical reason". The author was referring to some of Brian's key changes, and there I would disagree, but passages like the last onslaught of brass and percussion in the 3rd movement do seem to me to come from the world of music theatre rather than the symphony. I have similar thoughts about the 6th symphony, which for all its being a wonderful piece, does seem to these ears to be more of a tone poem and less of a symphony... and of course it was apparently originally intended as an operatic prelude. The 8th, though, blows away all of those reservations for me. Yes it has elements of theatre in it, but they seem to be wedded to the purely musical in a way that works for me 100% as a symphony.

I was pleased to see Bailey's comments about the 16th though. He may not be a Brianite, but he does sound like a sympathetic and perceptive listener.

HB was definitely blurring the lines between theater and symphony.  Wasn't No. 12 just the prelude from his opera Faust?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2019, 06:34:21 AM
I don't see the problem. Ever since Beethoven used a choir in a symphony, you see Romantic composers blurring genre lines constantly. Berlioz combined oratorio and symphony, Liszt invented the tone-poem, Mahler wanted music 'as if heard from afar', conjuring up an imaginary theatre. And Brian 'code-switched', too. I love it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 18, 2019, 06:58:41 AM
This is a rather nice photo of Mr. Brian:
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2019, 07:03:21 AM
First time I see it... Thanks, John!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on April 18, 2019, 07:23:36 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2019, 07:03:21 AM
First time I see it... Thanks, John!

You're welcome. It's actually the first-time I've seen it as well as I just did a Google image search many minutes prior to posting this photo.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on April 18, 2019, 08:47:51 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2019, 06:34:21 AM
I don't see the problem. Ever since Beethoven used a choir in a symphony, you see Romantic composers blurring genre lines constantly. Berlioz combined oratorio and symphony, Liszt invented the tone-poem, Mahler wanted music 'as if heard from afar', conjuring up an imaginary theatre. And Brian 'code-switched', too. I love it!

I didn't say there was a problem with blurring the lines between theatre and symphony. I said that I thought Brian was less successful at it in #7 than in some of his later works. Certainly Mahler did it and it is one of the things that makes Mahler so fascinating! But even in Mahler, the blurring was sometimes less, sometimes more successful. The cowbells, off-stage fanfares and bells in the 6th come straight from the world of music theatre, but it all works as symphony. I would point to Mahler's 3rd as a less successful example. And in Brian, the 12th and 30th are both symphonies that work (for me, anyway) as symphonies even though their language is obviously theatrical in origin.

It doesn't mean that I don't like the 7th, just that I can't approach listening to it in the same way that I approach some of his other works.

@relm1: I think the 12th was somehow connected with Aeschylus, Agamemnon specifically. Something by Aeschylus anyway. From memory (which could be faulty).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2019, 08:57:59 AM
Quote from: krummholz on April 18, 2019, 08:47:51 AM
I didn't say there was a problem with blurring the lines between theatre and symphony. I said that I thought Brian was less successful at it in #7 than in some of his later works. Certainly Mahler did it and it is one of the things that makes Mahler so fascinating! But even in Mahler, the blurring was sometimes less, sometimes more successful. The cowbells, off-stage fanfares and bells in the 6th come straight from the world of music theatre, but it all works as symphony. I would point to Mahler's 3rd as a less successful example. And in Brian, the 12th and 30th are both symphonies that work (for me, anyway) as symphonies even though their language is obviously theatrical in origin.

It doesn't mean that I don't like the 7th, just that I can't approach listening to it in the same way that I approach some of his other works.

@relm1: I think the 12th was somehow connected with Aeschylus, Agamemnon specifically. Something by Aeschylus anyway. From memory (which could be faulty).


I get the sense that you're less satisfied with both the Brian 7th and the Mahler 3rd, because the theatricality is less seamlessly integrated into the musical structure. If so, that presupposes an idea of symphonic form which you adhere to. I don't share that idea, perhaps... I say 'perhaps', because I don't think the Mahler 3rd and the Brian 7th are their top works either, although I love them.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on April 18, 2019, 11:04:15 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2019, 08:57:59 AM

I get the sense that you're less satisfied with both the Brian 7th and the Mahler 3rd, because the theatricality is less seamlessly integrated into the musical structure. If so, that presupposes an idea of symphonic form which you adhere to. I don't share that idea, perhaps... I say 'perhaps', because I don't think the Mahler 3rd and the Brian 7th are their top works either, although I love them.

"Less seamlessly integrated into the musical structure" ... yes, a good way of putting it! I'm not sure that I could articulate my idea of symphonic form in words, though... will have to give that more thought.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 18, 2019, 02:30:01 PM
Interesting discussion of the 7th because from memory (a few months since I've listen to it) the 7th sounds to me more integrated and as having fewer disruptive elements than some of the later symphonies.

I'll wait until I get hold of the new disk. (I'm surprised I haven't heard from the HB Society about getting a copy, with the last new release I had it several weeks before the official release date).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on April 18, 2019, 04:21:51 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2019, 06:34:21 AM
I don't see the problem. Ever since Beethoven used a choir in a symphony, you see Romantic composers blurring genre lines constantly. Berlioz combined oratorio and symphony, Liszt invented the tone-poem, Mahler wanted music 'as if heard from afar', conjuring up an imaginary theatre. And Brian 'code-switched', too. I love it!

I was just thinking if you're going to adapt/blur the lines that's one thing.  Like I am completely fine with RVW Sinfonia Antarctica being derived from a film score as Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky was but they are independent works derived from the same original material.  Similarly Prokofiev's Symphony No. 3 is very much a symphony though the material comes from his opera, The Fiery Angel.  I totally accept that and see it as they had more inspiration than the project required so kept on creating material with it.  Wasn't HB's No. 12 simply the opera prelude renamed?  I might be wrong about that so let me know if I am but that was my recollection. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2019, 09:27:18 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 18, 2019, 04:21:51 PM
I was just thinking if you're going to adapt/blur the lines that's one thing.  Like I am completely fine with RVW Sinfonia Antarctica being derived from a film score as Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky was but they are independent works derived from the same original material.  Similarly Prokofiev's Symphony No. 3 is very much a symphony though the material comes from his opera, The Fiery Angel.  I totally accept that and see it as they had more inspiration than the project required so kept on creating material with it.  Wasn't HB's No. 12 simply the opera prelude renamed?  I might be wrong about that so let me know if I am but that was my recollection.


Brian's Sixth, the Tragica, is presumably a symphony that uses music he composed for an opera he couldn't write for copyright reasons, based on Synge's play Deirdre of the Sorrows. His Twelfth is connected with the opera Agamemnon. And his Thirtieth might be what became of his preoccupation with Sophocles' (amazing!) Oedipus at Colonus.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 18, 2019, 10:30:09 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 18, 2019, 02:30:01 PM
Interesting discussion of the 7th because from memory (a few months since I've listen to it) the 7th sounds to me more integrated and as having fewer disruptive elements than some of the later symphonies.

I'll wait until I get hold of the new disk. (I'm surprised I haven't heard from the HB Society about getting a copy, with the last new release I had it several weeks before the official release date).
+1 on both counts.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 18, 2019, 10:30:38 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 18, 2019, 06:58:41 AM
This is a rather nice photo of Mr. Brian:
Best one I've seen!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on April 19, 2019, 12:08:09 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 18, 2019, 04:21:51 PM
I was just thinking if you're going to adapt/blur the lines that's one thing.  Like I am completely fine with RVW Sinfonia Antarctica being derived from a film score as Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky was but they are independent works derived from the same original material.  Similarly Prokofiev's Symphony No. 3 is very much a symphony though the material comes from his opera, The Fiery Angel.  I totally accept that and see it as they had more inspiration than the project required so kept on creating material with it.  Wasn't HB's No. 12 simply the opera prelude renamed?  I might be wrong about that so let me know if I am but that was my recollection.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of the 6th? I think the 6th (Sinfonia Tragica) was originally the prelude to his opera on Synge's Deirdre of the Sorrows, which as Johan stated he could not finish because of copyright issues. From what I've read, the 6th is literally the opera prelude renamed, as you said of the 12th. The 12th is an entirely different kettle of fish though, I think he said it could be used as an overture to his "curtain-raiser for Strauss's Elektra", by which I assume he means Agamemnon. So it is associated with the opera but I don't think it was actually written as part of it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on April 19, 2019, 04:06:52 PM
Quote from: krummholz on April 19, 2019, 12:08:09 PM
Are you sure you aren't thinking of the 6th? I think the 6th (Sinfonia Tragica) was originally the prelude to his opera on Synge's Deirdre of the Sorrows, which as Johan stated he could not finish because of copyright issues. From what I've read, the 6th is literally the opera prelude renamed, as you said of the 12th. The 12th is an entirely different kettle of fish though, I think he said it could be used as an overture to his "curtain-raiser for Strauss's Elektra", by which I assume he means Agamemnon. So it is associated with the opera but I don't think it was actually written as part of it.

Ahh, thanks to you and Johann for correcting.  I was going off memory.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on April 21, 2019, 03:09:35 AM
So a nearly 20-minute opera prelude? If that's just how long the prelude was, imagine how long the entire opera might have been.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on April 21, 2019, 05:57:50 AM
I think I read that in an essay on the HBS site... yes, I'm pretty certain it was this one, by Martin O'Leary.

http://www.havergalbrian.org/articles/sym6_1.php (http://www.havergalbrian.org/articles/sym6_1.php)

Rereading the article, it appears that Brian hadn't finished the prelude when the bad news came, so my statement wasn't quite accurate in that it wasn't actually an operatic prelude at the time it was finished. Still, if O'Leary is correct, the piece was originally intended as the prelude and one would assume that its general structure and length were fixed by that time.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 23, 2019, 11:30:40 AM
Music samples of the new Brian CD have appeared on Presto Classical. Judge for yourselves. I'll give my first impressions later...

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8612435--havergal-brian-symphonies-nos-7-and-16#tracklist (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8612435--havergal-brian-symphonies-nos-7-and-16#tracklist)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on April 24, 2019, 04:28:35 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 23, 2019, 11:30:40 AM
Music samples of the new Brian CD have appeared on Presto Classical. Judge for yourselves. I'll give my first impressions later...

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8612435--havergal-brian-symphonies-nos-7-and-16#tracklist (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8612435--havergal-brian-symphonies-nos-7-and-16#tracklist)

Those are certainly short excerpts! Very hard to form any real impression. But for what it's worth, all of it sounded self-conscious and stilted to me, compared to the performances that I have on CD (Mackerras for #7, Fredman for #16). That impression was stronger and more consistent in #7, probably because Presto gives us the opening of each movement, and because the opening of #16 is so atmospheric. The entry of the percussion in #16 did sound nice and ominous though. In the Tinker's Wedding overture, I had more the impression of a read-through or rehearsal than a performance.

Still, with such brief snippets of each performance, it's really hard to say anything with much confidence.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on April 24, 2019, 06:06:52 AM
I like the brisker version of Tinker's Wedding on Dutton better.  Plus I think Mackerras has a much more natural sound on #7 where this naxos release screams sound stage.  But I still plan to explore it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2019, 06:31:10 AM
To be perfectly honest, on the strength of these snippets I won't be chucking out my Lyrita and EMI recordings. I know what I like about Brian and how he ought to sound, and I was reminded of the Naxos 2, of which only the final movement really took off. I hope I am gravely mistaken.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 24, 2019, 07:55:48 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2019, 06:31:10 AM
To be perfectly honest, on the strength of these snippets I won't be chucking out my Lyrita and EMI recordings. I know what I like about Brian and how he ought to sound, and I was reminded of the Naxos 2, of which only the final movement really took off. I hope I am gravely mistaken.
+1
Still, I'm sure that I won't be disappointed with my HBS mug which is part of the same order.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 24, 2019, 09:02:27 AM
My first stop for Brian's Seventh is always the Newstone recording. The Mackerras recording is good;but the Newstone has more atmosphere. It's a pity if this new recording is disappointing. The previous recordings of No's 8 and 6,were very rewarding. I particularly enjoyed their Sinfonia Tragica,with that Russian sounding brass.
Maybe,it will sound better,when you hear the recording,complete?!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2019, 09:12:43 AM
I also find the Newstone still the best. It has that hard to define aura which Fredman and Pope also knew how to conjure up. Brian must sound mysterious, grand, magical and even a bit weird... We have been blessed these past decades with many well-played and excellently-recorded performances. What I hope for in future is the perfect combination of mystery / power / great sound / precision. Tempo is also of the essence. Why this Tinker's Wedding should be taken so slowly is beyond me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2019, 11:02:40 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 16, 2019, 12:04:35 PM

That's quick! Will have a look...

Hoe gaat het, Johan?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2019, 11:11:28 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 24, 2019, 11:02:40 AM
Hoe gaat het, Johan?


Ha! Karl! All well. As you know, my novel was published last August. Now in its third printing and well-received by critics and fellow poets and novelists. Life could be worse.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on April 24, 2019, 11:40:08 AM
For me, Number 16 heads the list of Brian's greatest symphonies. (By a very slim whisker - it's a tough call!) Fredman's recording is superb and it will be a great disappointment if the new Naxos fails to do this work justice.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2019, 11:57:02 AM
Quote from: Klaatu on April 24, 2019, 11:40:08 AM
For me, Number 16 heads the list of Brian's greatest symphonies. (By a very slim whisker - it's a tough call!) Fredman's recording is superb and it will be a great disappointment if the new Naxos fails to do this work justice.


No.16 is certainly among his strongest. The others, for me, are 1, 8, 22 and 30. I love all the symphonies, but those really show him at his best.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 24, 2019, 12:01:48 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2019, 11:11:28 AM

Ha! Karl! All well. As you know, my novel was published last August. Now in its third printing and well-received by critics and fellow poets and novelists. Life could be worse.
That's good news Johan. Congratulations! English translation?
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2019, 12:25:22 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 24, 2019, 12:01:48 PM
That's good news Johan. Congratulations! English translation?
:)


Ha! 'Through the Eye of the Cyclone' is in two parts, Nether Hemisphere and Upper Hemisphere. Upper Hemisphere will follow in 2021. So, when the project is finished, I hope there will be translations into German and English, no mean task, because most reviews so far mention Joyce and David Foster Wallace when they try to place me. My book is a sharp break with Dutch literature's love affair with realism, psychology and the autobiographical.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 24, 2019, 01:01:35 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2019, 12:25:22 PM

Ha! 'Through the Eye of the Cyclone' is in two parts, Nether Hemisphere and Upper Hemisphere. Upper Hemisphere will follow in 2021. So, when the project is finished, I hope there will be translations into German and English, no mean task, because most reviews so far mention Joyce and David Foster Wallace when they try to place me. My book is a sharp break with Dutch literature's love affair with realism, psychology and the autobiographical.
Well, I look forward to 2021.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 24, 2019, 01:17:55 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2019, 12:25:22 PM

My book is a sharp break with Dutch literature's love affair with realism, psychology and the autobiographical.

Damn that realism!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on April 24, 2019, 04:14:54 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 24, 2019, 07:55:48 AM
+1
Still, I'm sure that I won't be disappointed with my HBS mug which is part of the same order.  ;D

Your mug is less impressive than mine.  It is a "I survived the Gothic" from the Brisbane performance in 2010 which was the first concert performance since 1983 that they gifted me with. :) 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2019, 09:56:56 PM
Quote from: relm1 on April 24, 2019, 04:14:54 PM
Your mug is less impressive than mine.  It is a "I survived the Gothic" from the Brisbane performance in 2010 which was the first concert performance since 1983 that they gifted me with. :)
I believe it when I see it...  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on April 24, 2019, 10:18:39 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2019, 09:56:56 PM
I believe it when I see it...  ;)
You don't believe he survived?  >:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2019, 10:22:33 PM
Quote from: springrite on April 24, 2019, 10:18:39 PM
You don't believe he survived?  >:D


8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on April 25, 2019, 06:45:57 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2019, 09:56:56 PM
I believe it when I see it...  ;)

You're right not to believe me.  The Brisbane Gothic was from 2012 not 2010 so I was in fact incorrect and the event I described never happened.  Well done.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 25, 2019, 06:50:36 AM
Quote from: relm1 on April 25, 2019, 06:45:57 AM
You're right not to believe me.  The Brisbane Gothic was from 2012 not 2010 so I was in fact incorrect and the event I described never happened.  Well done.


But the Brisbane Gothic was in 2010!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 25, 2019, 10:33:30 AM
Am I the only one here who attended the Ole Schmidt Gothic in London (1980) ?  0:)

On a separate note I received a welcome email today from the HB Society informing me that they had posted (second class) a parcel to me containing the new Naxos CD of symphonies 7 and 16 and the HBS mug. My only concern is that, with the addition of the mug, it may be more difficult to smuggle this item into the house.
>:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on April 25, 2019, 12:51:41 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 24, 2019, 11:11:28 AM

Ha! Karl! All well. As you know, my novel was published last August. Now in its third printing and well-received by critics and fellow poets and novelists. Life could be worse.

Excellent news!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on April 25, 2019, 01:09:26 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 25, 2019, 10:33:30 AM
Am I the only one here who attended the Ole Schmidt Gothic in London (1980) ?  0:)

On a separate note I received a welcome email today from the HB Society informing me that they had posted (second class) a parcel to me containing the new Naxos CD of symphonies 7 and 16 and the HBS mug. My only concern is that, with the addition of the mug, it may be more difficult to smuggle this item into the house. >:D
Perhaps you could first try this one:
(https://i3.cpcache.com/product/1413773627/Keep_Calm_by_focusing_on_Smuggling_Mugs_250x250.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 25, 2019, 01:28:08 PM
Quote from: Christo on April 25, 2019, 01:09:26 PM
Perhaps you could first try this one:
(https://i3.cpcache.com/product/1413773627/Keep_Calm_by_focusing_on_Smuggling_Mugs_250x250.jpg)
I definitely want one of those mugs!
8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2019, 01:31:38 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 25, 2019, 10:33:30 AMMy only concern is that, with the addition of the mug, it may be more difficult to smuggle this item into the house.

;D :D ;D ...good luck!

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 25, 2019, 01:39:56 PM
'Mugging' gets a whole new meaning now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 25, 2019, 01:48:51 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2019, 01:31:38 PM
;D :D ;D ...good luck!

Sarge

Thanks Sarge.
8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 25, 2019, 03:43:15 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 25, 2019, 10:33:30 AM
Am I the only one here who attended the Ole Schmidt Gothic in London (1980) ?  0:)

On a separate note I received a welcome email today from the HB Society informing me that they had posted (second class) a parcel to me containing the new Naxos CD of symphonies 7 and 16 and the HBS mug. My only concern is that, with the addition of the mug, it may be more difficult to smuggle this item into the house.
>:D
No offense that is like the zenith of nerdiness, in musical terms of course.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on April 25, 2019, 10:29:24 PM
I was at the Schmidt 1980 Gothic also. Do you remember the choirboy incident?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 25, 2019, 10:32:10 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on April 25, 2019, 10:29:24 PM
I was at the Schmidt 1980 Gothic also. Do you remember the choirboy incident?


That 'you' is vandermolen /Jeffrey, of course. But I know the recording and I remember that curious thud...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 25, 2019, 11:14:39 PM
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on April 25, 2019, 03:43:15 PM
No offense that is like the zenith of nerdiness, in musical terms of course.

I agree! :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 25, 2019, 11:17:36 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on April 25, 2019, 10:29:24 PM
I was at the Schmidt 1980 Gothic also. Do you remember the choirboy incident?
I hope that this isn't a trick question to see if I was actually in attendance  ;)
No, but I guess from Johan's comment that he fainted.
I think that it was the first time that I'd heard any Havergal Brian.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on April 25, 2019, 11:45:08 PM
No trick at all, Jeffrey! 😜 Towards the end of the first choral movement, a choirboy not only fainted, but plummeted into the LSO's percussion section. Schmidt was on the verge of stopping the performance but got a signal that the boy was ok.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on April 26, 2019, 12:50:38 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on April 25, 2019, 11:45:08 PM
No trick at all, Jeffrey! 😜 Towards the end of the first choral movement, a choirboy not only fainted, but plummeted into the LSO's percussion section. Schmidt was on the verge of stopping the performance but got a signal that the boy was ok.

A 'choirboy plummeting into the percussion section' sounds more like a prescription for a Fluxus happening.  :-[
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 26, 2019, 12:52:48 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on April 25, 2019, 11:45:08 PM
No trick at all, Jeffrey! 😜 Towards the end of the first choral movement, a choirboy not only fainted, but plummeted into the LSO's percussion section. Schmidt was on the verge of stopping the performance but got a signal that the boy was ok.

Thanks.

How could I not remember that!?

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 26, 2019, 03:38:36 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on April 25, 2019, 10:29:24 PM
I was at the Schmidt 1980 Gothic also. Do you remember the choirboy incident?
It was,very,audible! I remember wondering what it was,when I played back the cassette,I made as a teenager;with my radio,cassette recorder! I listened to the Gothic so much,I remember I'd actually hear that 'bit',when I "played it back",in my head. I think I even "heard" it on the Marco Polo recording,for a while?! (It sounds like a,sort of,soft 'flump',or 'floomph'!)  It reminds me of,one of those Lp's,where the needle (unlike it's laser replacement!) jumped to the next damaged groove. When I got the recording on cd,I'd "hear" that bit,in my head! Gradually,the memory would fade,as I got used to hearing the recording without the,damaged bit! I can't help,being reminded of this,when the laser,on my cd player,discovers some minute scratch,on a s/h cd,I've just bought,and grinds (actually,skips or freezes!) to a halt! ! If only lasers could perform the same 'trick'?!! ::) ;D Although,maybe,some top end machines do? I even have to help my current cd player,to "read" cd's,by opening and shutting the door,several times! Although,It's very good,once it manages to read the b***** thing!  And they,definitely,should have put an,"open the draw" button,on the remote control! I keep having to get out of my chair!! >:( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 26, 2019, 04:08:00 AM
By the way? Is there any hope,at all,of a new studio recording of No 3?!! A big favourite of mine! A Dutton recording,with Martyn Brabbins,would be just what the doctor ordered! :)
(Or trip to Honolulu,like Laurel and Hardy,in Sons of the Desert? Some,hope?!! :( ;D).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on April 26, 2019, 06:25:25 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 26, 2019, 04:08:00 AM
By the way? Is there any hope,at all,of a new studio recording of No 3?!! A big favourite of mine! A Dutton recording,with Martyn Brabbins,would be just what the doctor ordered! :)
(Or trip to Honolulu,like Laurel and Hardy,in Sons of the Desert? Some,hope?!! :( ;D).

I thought the No.3 hyperion was quite fine and would prefer a new superior recording of No. 4 instead.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 26, 2019, 09:31:37 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 26, 2019, 04:08:00 AM
By the way? Is there any hope,at all,of a new studio recording of No 3?!! A big favourite of mine! A Dutton recording,with Martyn Brabbins,would be just what the doctor ordered! :)
(Or trip to Honolulu,like Laurel and Hardy,in Sons of the Desert? Some,hope?!! :( ;D).

I also like No.3 but am happy with the Hyperion disc with its atmospheric front cover image of Pan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on April 26, 2019, 09:35:33 AM
Yeah, if we are talking about new recordings of symphonies, I'd prefer a new 4th over a new 3rd. With a better, less warbly soprano soloist in the middle movement please.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2019, 02:29:22 AM
The best thing about the Hyperion recording is the artwork! ::) ;D If I want to listen to the third,it's always the Pope recording,for me. That performance was also my introduction to it,via the Aries Lp. So,I would love a new recording! And I'm sure it will happen,one day!! That said! With respect to some of the comments about performances of Brian,by Newstone and Pope,here. I'm,somehow,doubtful that any new recording would supplant my affection for the Pope recording?! In fact,despite the new recordings of No's 6,8 & 10;the old emi recordings are still the definitive recordings for me,anyway! Only,Brabbin's recording of No 2,has supplanted,the earlier recordings by Mackerras,and Head,in that sense. And I'm not sure if I'm gravitating back to the old Rayner Cook performance of No5,these days?  And maybe,even Holmes,for the Violin Concerto? The Dutton recordings of both,are excellent. But if the earlier recordings were restored and released on a,commercially released,cd,I'd probably put those on,first?!! As to Das Siegeslied. Funnily enough,of the earlier recordings of Brian on the old Marco Polo label;the performance of No 4,was the only one I really enjoyed. I also rather liked the soloist's 'Slavonic wobble'! And those East European choirs are always good,imho! Although,in a perfect world,the old Poole performance would be released on cd;which is,always,my benchmark!

But,I'm jumping the gun,here!! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 27, 2019, 03:48:49 AM
I have successfully smuggled my Havergal Society mug together with the new Naxos recording of symphonies 7 and 16 into the house. You can all breathe again.
8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2019, 03:51:47 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 27, 2019, 03:48:49 AM
I have successfully smuggled my Havergal Society mug together with the new Naxos recording of symphonies 7 and 16 into the house. You can all breathe again.
8)


I won't betray you.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 27, 2019, 03:53:58 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2019, 03:51:47 AM

I won't betray you.

I knew I could rely on you. Katy was at the gym when the post arrived so the retrieval operation went like clockwork.
>:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2019, 03:55:49 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 27, 2019, 03:53:58 AM
I knew I could rely on you. Katy was at the gym when the post arrived so the retrieval operation went like clockwork.
>:D


You dastardly man, you!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 27, 2019, 03:57:56 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2019, 03:55:49 AM

You dastardly man, you!
8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 27, 2019, 05:20:34 AM
Won't it be a bit of a give-a-way,when your wife sees you drinking out of it?!! ??? ;D Will you cover the picture of Brian (or wording) with your hands,when drinking out of it? Or,will you only use it,when she's not around? Or maybe (for a truly,retro experience of your lost youth) in your bedroom?! (Alternatively,a garden/potting shed,or garage;if you've got one?!).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on April 27, 2019, 07:42:07 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 26, 2019, 04:08:00 AM
By the way? Is there any hope,at all,of a new studio recording of No 3?!! A big favourite of mine! A Dutton recording,with Martyn Brabbins,would be just what the doctor ordered! :)
(Or trip to Honolulu,like Laurel and Hardy,in Sons of the Desert? Some,hope?!! :( ;D).

So we have two performances already on CD, the Hyperion issue under Lionel Friend and the Klassic Haus restoration with Stanley Pope.  I agree with others that the Friend reading is fine and well recorded. I've listened a few more times to Pope's performance and while it has many good points, it sounds a bit muddled to me, the ensemble is not anywhere near as good as in the Friend, and all of Klassic Haus's expertise can't hide the defects in the original sound. So I'm going to side with cilgwyn: let's have an alternative reading of Brian's "Eroica", under a conductor like Brabbins who really "gets" Brian, and with fully modern sound.

To those who would prefer a new recording of the Siegeslied, why can't we have both?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 27, 2019, 01:54:47 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 27, 2019, 05:20:34 AM
Won't it be a bit of a give-a-way,when your wife sees you drinking out of it?!! ???
I have my HB Society mug at work and drink tea out of it all the time. I work in a busy government department and lots of people see me using it, but no-one has ever asked me who Havergal Brian is.  :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 27, 2019, 02:23:16 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 27, 2019, 05:20:34 AM
Won't it be a bit of a give-a-way,when your wife sees you drinking out of it?!! ??? ;D Will you cover the picture of Brian (or wording) with your hands,when drinking out of it? Or,will you only use it,when she's not around? Or maybe (for a truly,retro experience of your lost youth) in your bedroom?! (Alternatively,a garden/potting shed,or garage;if you've got one?!).
That's a very good point cigwyn which I had not properly considered. At the moment it is hidden behind my two Tintin mugs and my 'HAL 9000' mug from 2001: A Space Odyssey (which was on TV this evening). I have had the garden shed converted into what my wife calls 'a man cave' so I suspect that the HBS mug will find its way down there.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 12:39:26 AM
I've been enjoying the new Symphony 16. To be honest it's a long time since I played the Lyrita recording but I like both of them. The solo instruments seem to be more highlighted in the Naxos recording. It is one of my favourites of the Brian symphonies after No.10. I haven't got round to Symphony 7 and may never get round to 'The Tinker's Wedding' as the juxtaposition of Havergal Brian and 'Comedy Overture' doesn't sit easily with me, although, no doubt, others may disagree:
(//)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on April 28, 2019, 08:04:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 12:39:26 AM
I've been enjoying the new Symphony 16. To be honest it's a long time since I played the Lyrita recording but I like both of them. The solo instruments seem to be more highlighted in the Naxos recording. It is one of my favourites of the Brian symphonies after No.10. I haven't got round to Symphony 7 and may never get round to 'The Tinker's Wedding' as the juxtaposition of Havergal Brian and 'Comedy Overture' doesn't sit easily with me, although, no doubt, others may disagree:
(//)

Courtesy of the HBS, or is it available to ship already from online stores?

I had almost decided to pass on this one based on the excerpts on that site, but now I can see that I must take the plunge, if only for the 16th. I listened to the Fredman on Lyrita recently and was once again, quite blown away - this is certainly one of Brian's finest.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 28, 2019, 09:41:30 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 27, 2019, 02:23:16 PM
That's a very good point cigwyn which I had not properly considered. At the moment it is hidden behind my two Tintin mugs and my 'HAL 9000' mug from 2001: A Space Odyssey (which was on TV this evening). I have had the garden shed converted into what my wife calls 'a man cave' so I suspect that the HBS mug will find its way down there.
Regarding,the point made by calyptorhyncus! Maybe,your wife won't even notice?!! ::) ;D
I'm sure nothing passes her,razor sharp,observational powers,though?!! Unluckily,for you! :( ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 28, 2019, 09:55:30 AM
No's 6 & 16 seemed to go very well together,on the old Lyrita Lp,somehow? I'm sure I read,somewhere,that a different symphony was considered,initially;but they,subsequently,settled on No 16?! (Although,I may have got this wrong?)
I actually heard the Hyperion recording of No3,via the musicassette,released by the same company! I remember I had to turn it over,for the third movement. I was thinking,I wouldn't mind tracking down the cassette,s/h,for old times sake!! I wish I'd kept the Aries Lp,in a way! Did you buy any,vandermolen? It would be quite nice to have the one of the Gothic,actually! I presume the money wouldn't go to any bootleggers,now?!! I can't imagine they got rich on Brian? (Mansions,swimming pools!! ;D) They had great taste in music,though! Fair play!! I remember reading that their Lp of the Gothic was one of their better efforts (in terms of sound!) They seem to fetch quite a bit,now!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on April 28, 2019, 10:57:21 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 27, 2019, 03:53:58 AM
I knew I could rely on you. Katy was at the gym when the post arrived so the retrieval operation went like clockwork.
>:D
Very happy to learn you didn't need this one then:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41DTKfP%2BioL._AC_SL230_.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 28, 2019, 11:03:06 AM
I picked up very recently - and have yet to start reading - "Ordeal by Music - the strange experience of Havergal Brian" by R. Nettel published by OUP.  One of those wonderful "post-war austerity editions" printed on something akin to thin toilet paper.  Delighted to get a copy of this rare book at a very reasonable price in good condition.....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on April 28, 2019, 11:31:11 AM
Some latter-day Ken Russell really should do a biopic of Brian.

"Ordeal by Music" would be a great title for such a venture.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 28, 2019, 11:35:51 AM
Quote from: Christo on April 28, 2019, 10:57:21 AM
Very happy to learn you didn't need this one then:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41DTKfP%2BioL._AC_SL230_.jpg)
:laugh:
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 02:20:41 PM
Quote from: krummholz on April 28, 2019, 08:04:23 AM
Courtesy of the HBS, or is it available to ship already from online stores?

I had almost decided to pass on this one based on the excerpts on that site, but now I can see that I must take the plunge, if only for the 16th. I listened to the Fredman on Lyrita recently and was once again, quite blown away - this is certainly one of Brian's finest.
From HBS along with their mug!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 02:22:52 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 27, 2019, 01:54:47 PM
I have my HB Society mug at work and drink tea out of it all the time. I work in a busy government department and lots of people see me using it, but no-one has ever asked me who Havergal Brian is.  :(

I had a Miaskovsky mug at work but it disappeared.  >:(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 02:23:52 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 28, 2019, 09:41:30 AM
Regarding,the point made by calyptorhyncus! Maybe,your wife won't even notice?!! ::) ;D
I'm sure nothing passes her,razor sharp,observational powers,though?!! Unluckily,for you! :( ;D
Oddly enough she hasn't noticed it so far.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 28, 2019, 09:55:30 AM
No's 6 & 16 seemed to go very well together,on the old Lyrita Lp,somehow? I'm sure I read,somewhere,that a different symphony was considered,initially;but they,subsequently,settled on No 16?! (Although,I may have got this wrong?)
I actually heard the Hyperion recording of No3,via the musicassette,released by the same company! I remember I had to turn it over,for the third movement. I was thinking,I wouldn't mind tracking down the cassette,s/h,for old times sake!! I wish I'd kept the Aries Lp,in a way! Did you buy any,vandermolen? It would be quite nice to have the one of the Gothic,actually! I presume the money wouldn't go to any bootleggers,now?!! I can't imagine they got rich on Brian? (Mansions,swimming pools!! ;D) They had great taste in music,though! Fair play!! I remember reading that their Lp of the Gothic was one of their better efforts (in terms of sound!) They seem to fetch quite a bit,now!
Didn't have any Brian bootleg's as far as I'm aware cilgwyn. The only LPs I have were the Groves 8 and 9 ( a marvellous LP), the Lyrita 6 and 16 ( terrific) and the Leicestershire Schools SO performing symphonies 10 and 21 and Symphony 22 etc on a CBS LP. The first Gothic Symphony I owned was on a Marco Polo CD which was reissued on Naxos.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 28, 2019, 02:35:06 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 02:28:41 PM
Didn't have any Brian bootleg's as far as I'm aware cilgwyn. The only LPs I have were the Groves 8 and 9 ( a marvellous LP), the Lyrita 6 and 16 ( terrific) and the Leicestershire Schools SO performing symphonies 10 and 21 and Symphony 22 etc on a CBS LP. The first Gothic Symphony I owned was on a Marco Polo CD which was reissued on Naxos.


I only had the Groves and the other three LPs I had to tape (friend + local library). This brings back memories...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 02:43:01 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 28, 2019, 02:35:06 PM

I only had the Groves and the other three LPs I had to tape (friend + local library). This brings back memories...

I also had the Mackerras version of Symphony 7 on an EMI LP.
(//)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 28, 2019, 02:45:37 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 02:43:01 PM
I also had the Mackerras version of Symphony 7 on an EMI LP.


I bought a CD player especially for the CD, my first one ever...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 10:01:39 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 28, 2019, 02:45:37 PM

I bought a CD player especially for the CD, my first one ever...

My first CD was Tubin's symphonies 2 and 6 (Jarvi) before I had a CD player. A friend allowed me to listen to it on his CD player.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on April 29, 2019, 12:07:27 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on April 28, 2019, 10:01:39 PM
My first CD was Tubin's symphonies 2 and 6 (Jarvi) before I had a CD player. A friend allowed me to listen to it on his CD player.
I bought my first CD before I had a player as well. It was Gershwin's An American in Paris, by the Lebeque sisters.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on April 29, 2019, 04:26:46 AM
The first cd's I ever played,were borrowed from the library. You were only allowed two;and one of them was Haitink's recording of the Sinfonia Antartica. I'm not sure about the other one? I think it might have been orchestral works by Manuel de Falla? But,I can't remember which recording?!! I believe it was digital?
I should point out (again) that I had no idea,at the time ,that the Aries Lp was pirated! I just remember thinking it was strange that it hadn't been advertised in Gramophone! It was just in a list from Michael G Thomas,who used to advertise in the back pages of Gramophone. They had a lot of bootleg type Lp sets of,off the beaten operas;and a cassette of Harriet Cohen's performance of Winter Legends,once;which I considered buying,but didn't! This would have been the broadcast performance,released by Dutton,some years later.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 06, 2019, 01:21:47 PM
The new Brian disk arrived in Australia and I have been listening to it. First thoughts, don't ditch your Fredman and Mackerras recordings yet.

Mainly this is because the 7th and 16th (haven't listened to Tinker's Wedding yet) seem much more lightweight than the older recordings. Fredman's 16 was a sort of granite monolith sitting on the audio landscape and radiating power. This recording is very competent, and, as always, a different recording will give you new insights into various passages that sound different, but it doesn't have that primal energy the older recording does.

I also see now why the critic that someone quoted earlier was talking about disruptive passages in 7. In this recording the flow of the music is is very disrupted in a way that Mackerras didn't bring out (I think for the best). In the older recording the music was more similar in mood throughout and that's an interpretation I prefer. In new this version of 7 I felt I was listing to a new symphony almost, and I didn't like it as much as the older version.

But I wouldn't tell anyone not to get them, particularly as the disk isn't full-price. As they say, I'll have to listen to them more.

And now on to Holmboe's Accordion Sonatas  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2019, 01:25:19 PM
Enjoy them!


Your review confirms my hunch. I still have to get the disk. I'm not really in a hurry...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on May 06, 2019, 01:55:15 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on April 29, 2019, 04:26:46 AM
The first cd's I ever played,were borrowed from the library. You were only allowed two;and one of them was Haitink's recording of the Sinfonia Antartica. I'm not sure about the other one? I think it might have been orchestral works by Manuel de Falla? But,I can't remember which recording?!! I believe it was digital?
I should point out (again) that I had no idea,at the time ,that the Aries Lp was pirated! I just remember thinking it was strange that it hadn't been advertised in Gramophone! It was just in a list from Michael G Thomas,who used to advertise in the back pages of Gramophone. They had a lot of bootleg type Lp sets of,off the beaten operas;and a cassette of Harriet Cohen's performance of Winter Legends,once;which I considered buying,but didn't! This would have been the broadcast performance,released by Dutton,some years later.
Don't worry cilgwyn your underworld connections are safe with us.
8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2019, 01:57:39 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 06, 2019, 01:55:15 PM
Don't worry cilgwyn your underworld connections are safe with us.
8)


:laugh:
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on May 06, 2019, 03:18:43 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 06, 2019, 01:55:15 PM
Don't worry cilgwyn your underworld connections are safe with us.
8)
Only once met the famous Worshipful Company of Somehow Assembled Brianites - in London, wasn't it in 1994 or so? Since then, I've always known all Brianites to be 'underworld'.  8)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 06, 2019, 05:54:54 PM
On the other hand the performance of The Tinker's Wedding on the new disk is much the best I have heard. Much more expansive and less hurried than other recordings.  :-\
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 06, 2019, 10:07:36 PM
Quote from: Christo on May 06, 2019, 03:18:43 PM
Only once met the famous Worshipful Company of Somehow Assembled Brianites - in London, wasn't it in 1994 or so? Since then, I've always known all Brianites to be 'underworld'.  8)


27 May 1995...


Our historic first meeting.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: cilgwyn on May 07, 2019, 08:17:55 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on May 06, 2019, 01:55:15 PM
Don't worry cilgwyn your underworld connections are safe with us.
8)
Just for one moment (when I saw your post & Johan's) I wondered what I'd done?!! :o I can honestly say that there were no clandestine meetings in a derelict warehouse! No other illegal contraband,was involved!! I think it came in a plain,brown,wrapper,though?!! ::) ;D
I must admit,I had this mental picture of you,and Johan;with stacks of Aries Lp's! Was,I,really,the only one?!! That makes me feel good! The thought of some pirate (albeit,a pirate with good taste in music!) lying next to a swimming pool,surrounded by beautiful women;living it up off the back of profits,made from pirated Havergal Brian Lp's and mugs,like me!!!! :o
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2019, 08:20:29 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 06, 2019, 05:54:54 PM
On the other hand the performance of The Tinker's Wedding on the new disk is much the best I have heard. Much more expansive and less hurried than other recordings.  :-\


Admirable understatement.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 07, 2019, 08:22:09 AM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 07, 2019, 08:17:55 AM
The thought of some pirate (albeit,a pirate with good taste in music!) lying next to a swimming pool,surrounded by beautiful women;living it up off the back of profits,made from pirated Havergal Brian Lp's and mugs,like me!!!! :o


Havergal Island... The mind boggles.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: SymphonicAddict on July 07, 2019, 06:32:57 PM
I saw a pic of the fellow J. Z. Herrenberg elsewhere and I thought there is a little of resemblance here. No ofense is intended at all, just I couldn't help myself!  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/VpOCM9H.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: JBS on July 07, 2019, 06:37:29 PM
Quote from: cilgwyn on May 07, 2019, 08:17:55 AM
Just for one moment (when I saw your post & Johan's) I wondered what I'd done?!! :o I can honestly say that there were no clandestine meetings in a derelict warehouse! No other illegal contraband,was involved!! I think it came in a plain,brown,wrapper,though?!! ::) ;D
I must admit,I had this mental picture of you,and Johan;with stacks of Aries Lp's! Was,I,really,the only one?!! That makes me feel good! The thought of some pirate (albeit,a pirate with good taste in music!) lying next to a swimming pool,surrounded by beautiful women;living it up off the back of profits,made from pirated Havergal Brian Lp's and mugs,like me!!!! :o

Given the size of the Brianite communion, the profits would allow a toddler blow up wading pool and posters from the tabloids....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 07, 2019, 09:03:21 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on July 07, 2019, 06:32:57 PM
I saw a pic of the fellow J. Z. Herrenberg elsewhere and I thought there is a little of resemblance here. No ofense is intended at all, just I couldn't help myself!  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/VpOCM9H.jpg)


Funny!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 07, 2019, 09:04:44 PM
Quote from: JBS on July 07, 2019, 06:37:29 PM
Given the size of the Brianite communion, the profits would allow a toddler blow up wading pool and posters from the tabloids....


:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 07, 2019, 09:51:27 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on July 07, 2019, 06:32:57 PM
I saw a pic of the fellow J. Z. Herrenberg elsewhere and I thought there is a little of resemblance here. No ofense is intended at all, just I couldn't help myself!  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/VpOCM9H.jpg)
Uncanny and an obvious choice for the author's photo on Johan's book.
8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 07, 2019, 09:54:03 PM
I think my publisher, and innocent readers, would be horrified.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 21, 2019, 04:22:55 PM
Too much silence here.  I am currently enjoying the Mackerras/RLPO Symphony No. 7.  To me, this feels so regal and English yet quintessentially Brian.  There is the Waltonesque fanfare at the start, the stately Elgar nobility, but of course the Brian diversions and marches.  One light bulb for me just happened.  The sudden juxtaposition between fortissimo and pianissimo is a hallmark of Bruckner too.  All over his symphonies.  Similarly, this was something Robert Simpson who championed Brian was also fond of and was also common in Carl Nielsen.  Brian gets a bad rap for being disjunctive but in a way, much of this is a reference to Bruckner's style that all of these great symphonists reference.   This for example:

https://youtu.be/ZtD8Abtq-3g?t=332

Imagine how jarring this would have been structurally.  Brian's No. 7 is a really great work if someone unfamiliar with Brian needed a single work to get to know him because there is so much of him in here at its most demonstrable.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vers la flamme on August 22, 2019, 02:50:08 AM
395 pages on Havergal Brian! He must be a major favorite here...

... all I've heard of his is the famous Gothic symphony, and not all of it. I really did not like it. I understand he wrote many more symphonies, and that he dialed it back with the extravagance following the first.

What are some of his major works? In other words, what has he done that has made him so beloved here? Don't tell me all this discussion is around the Gothic symphony...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 22, 2019, 06:19:15 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 22, 2019, 02:50:08 AM
395 pages on Havergal Brian! He must be a major favorite here...

No, we just repeat ourselves alot.

Quote from: vers la flamme on August 22, 2019, 02:50:08 AM
... all I've heard of his is the famous Gothic symphony, and not all of it. I really did not like it. I understand he wrote many more symphonies, and that he dialed it back with the extravagance following the first.

What are some of his major works? In other words, what has he done that has made him so beloved here? Don't tell me all this discussion is around the Gothic symphony...

It seems the Gothic grabs you hard or not at all.  I'm the former.  I immediately fell into its spell the first time time I heard it because of its tremendous sonic journey and nonstop inventiveness yet with a dramatic cohesiveness and propulsive development.  It is a marathon and you feel like you've experienced not just work but eras through its span.

But if it isn't for you, I also love his operas and there is a very fine disk of the opera extract from the Tigers I would recommend.  You might also like the English Suites.  Though always distinctively his own, Brian's early music tends to be more firmly routed in English tradition and becomes increasingly individualistic and striving towards brevity as he progressed. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 22, 2019, 06:26:22 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 22, 2019, 02:50:08 AM
395 pages on Havergal Brian! He must be a major favorite here...

No, we just repeat ourselves alot.   ::) :P

Quote from: vers la flamme on August 22, 2019, 02:50:08 AM
... all I've heard of his is the famous Gothic symphony, and not all of it. I really did not like it. I understand he wrote many more symphonies, and that he dialed it back with the extravagance following the first.

What are some of his major works? In other words, what has he done that has made him so beloved here? Don't tell me all this discussion is around the Gothic symphony...

It seems the Gothic grabs you hard or not at all.  I'm the former.  I immediately fell into its spell the first time time I heard it because of its tremendous sonic journey and nonstop inventiveness yet with a dramatic cohesiveness and propulsive development.  It is a marathon and you feel like you've experienced not just work but eras through its span.

But if it isn't for you, I also love his operas and there is a very fine disk of the opera extract from the Tigers I would recommend.  You might also like the English Suites. 

Though always distinctively his own, Brian's early music tends to be more firmly routed in English tradition and quickly becomes individualistic and striving towards brevity as he progressed.  His early symphonies are expansive and later symphonies are taut.  A common characteristic is they tend to favor fragmentary ideas and sudden transitions rather than long drawn development.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: SymphonicAddict on August 22, 2019, 12:09:51 PM
The Gothic is clearly his opus magnum. It's a real monument to music. I recall the first time I listened to it: simply shattering. Although he seems to have a distinctive voice, I don't like his style that much. I sometimes feel that his orchestration ideas are brusque, too dense and few accurate, somehow I often don't feel hooked by it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 22, 2019, 12:55:46 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 22, 2019, 02:50:08 AM
395 pages on Havergal Brian! He must be a major favorite here...

... all I've heard of his is the famous Gothic symphony, and not all of it. I really did not like it. I understand he wrote many more symphonies, and that he dialed it back with the extravagance following the first.

What are some of his major works? In other words, what has he done that has made him so beloved here? Don't tell me all this discussion is around the Gothic symphony...

Well he wrote 32 numbered symphonies in all, several operas, much other orchestral music, some piano music, organ music, and quite a few songs. About the only medium that he didn't delve into much is chamber music. But whether you would enjoy his other work really depends on what you didn't like about the Gothic. If it was the extravagance, then there is hope, since the Gothic is really one of a kind in that respect. His only other choral symphony was the 4th, the "Siegeslied", and that is extravagant in a different way (full of violent, even bloodthirsty imagery). And after the 4th symphony there is really only one large scale symphony, the 7th. After the 7th they are all much more concise and focused.

It's hard to recommend a Brian symphony without knowing what other styles of music appeal to you. There is a huge range of expression in his music, from the heroic to the pastoral, the funereal to the jocular. His music is often dominated by march rhythms and percussion. He loves to give melodic lines to bass instruments, including low brass. His late music, especially, is mostly contrapuntal and one is often reminded of Bach's 2-part and 3-part inventions. The orchestral colors are constantly changing in a way that some call kaleidoscopic. Some works are very hard to grasp in one or even a few hearings, since they compress a huge amount of music into a short time span.

Brian might simply not be for you - but the Gothic isn't a good indicator either way. Without knowing anything else about what you are looking for, the three Brian symphonies I would recommend to explore first would be #3, #8, and #11, three works that expose different sides of Brian's musical personality. If you like any of those, there's a lot more to sample.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 22, 2019, 01:03:01 PM
As well as writing what might be the largest and longest symphony Brian also wrote one of the shortest, #22, at 9.5 minutes.

If you don't like the Gothic you might not like ##2-4, but in my opinion the following are his masterpieces of his middle and later phases and any of them might appeal: ##7, 8, 9, 10, 16, 21, 22-24 (as a trilogy); 27, 29, 30, 31, 32

I also like the Concerto for Orchestra (Symphony 21.5) and the Cello Concerto.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kyjo on August 22, 2019, 01:19:34 PM
Quote from: relm1 on August 21, 2019, 04:22:55 PM
Too much silence here.  I am currently enjoying the Mackerras/RLPO Symphony No. 7.  To me, this feels so regal and English yet quintessentially Brian.  There is the Waltonesque fanfare at the start, the stately Elgar nobility, but of course the Brian diversions and marches.  One light bulb for me just happened.  The sudden juxtaposition between fortissimo and pianissimo is a hallmark of Bruckner too.  All over his symphonies.  Similarly, this was something Robert Simpson who championed Brian was also fond of and was also common in Carl Nielsen.  Brian gets a bad rap for being disjunctive but in a way, much of this is a reference to Bruckner's style that all of these great symphonists reference.   This for example:

https://youtu.be/ZtD8Abtq-3g?t=332

Imagine how jarring this would have been structurally.  Brian's No. 7 is a really great work if someone unfamiliar with Brian needed a single work to get to know him because there is so much of him in here at its most demonstrable.

Thanks for the enticing description, Karim. I haven't heard the 7th yet, so I'll be sure to check it out.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: kyjo on August 22, 2019, 01:22:31 PM
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on August 22, 2019, 12:09:51 PM
Although he seems to have a distinctive voice, I don't like his style that much. I sometimes feel that his orchestration ideas are brusque, too dense and few accurate, somehow I often don't feel hooked by it.

I'm inclined to agree with this...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vers la flamme on August 22, 2019, 01:29:46 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 22, 2019, 01:03:01 PM
As well as writing what might be the largest and longest symphony Brian also wrote one of the shortest, #22, at 9.5 minutes.

If you don't like the Gothic you might not like ##2-4, but in my opinion the following are his masterpieces of his middle and later phases and any of them might appeal: ##7, 8, 9, 10, 16, 21, 22-24 (as a trilogy); 27, 29, 30, 31, 32

I also like the Concerto for Orchestra (Symphony 21.5) and the Cello Concerto.
That is funny. Even shorter than Webern's symphony  :P

What I didn't like about the Gothic symphony is the extravagance (yes, as someone mentioned) as well as what sounds to me like a perverse density of orchestral texture. Oftentimes the orchestra and chorus sounds like a huge organ playing fortissimo. Eh, either way, I'll probably give it another shot some time, but until then I'll have to check out one of the less ambitious symphonies mentioned. Thanks everyone.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 22, 2019, 03:48:57 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 22, 2019, 01:03:01 PM
As well as writing what might be the largest and longest symphony Brian also wrote one of the shortest, #22, at 9.5 minutes.

If you don't like the Gothic you might not like ##2-4, but in my opinion the following are his masterpieces of his middle and later phases and any of them might appeal: ##7, 8, 9, 10, 16, 21, 22-24 (as a trilogy); 27, 29, 30, 31, 32

I also like the Concerto for Orchestra (Symphony 21.5) and the Cello Concerto.


I endorse this message.


Adding: English Suites 1 and 3, the Symphonic Movements from The Tigers, and the Turandot Suite are gorgeous.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on August 23, 2019, 01:40:22 PM
My contact in the ENO orchestra tells me they spent today playing through the orchestral score of HB's Faust, in preparation for next week's recording.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 23, 2019, 01:46:18 PM
Quote from: Augustus on August 23, 2019, 01:40:22 PM
My contact in the ENO orchestra tells me they spent today playing through the orchestral score of HB's Faust, in preparation for next week's recording.


Excellent news. The Prologue and the Wild Ride are both terrific, so I'm really looking forward to hearing the whole opera.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 23, 2019, 10:12:19 PM
Forgot also to recommend Symphony no.6.  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 23, 2019, 10:27:14 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 23, 2019, 10:12:19 PM
Forgot also to recommend Symphony no.6.  :)


Tragic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 24, 2019, 12:04:10 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 23, 2019, 10:27:14 PM

Tragic.

:laugh:
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on November 28, 2019, 01:10:38 PM
BBC Radio 3 had a piece about Brian in its "Essential Classics" programme on Tuesday morning (so now HB is "Essential"!).  I caught the beginning of it, starting about 10:00, and will get the rest on catch-up:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000bmtk (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000bmtk)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 28, 2019, 01:22:43 PM
That's progress! Thanks for spotting this .
Update: I don't see Brian in the tracklist...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on November 29, 2019, 08:16:33 AM
I've found it. It's a section called "Musical Time Traveller", and it's a short featurette rather than a full playthrough. Still interesting though. It starts around 1:10:15 into this programme: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000bmtk (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000bmtk)

It's a fascinating little bit, including a brief extract of the composer talking about the symphony.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on December 20, 2019, 01:39:41 AM
Of slight interest but amusingly, Brian is clued in today's Times Crossword.

Faust Brian put together without leading notes, like Berg.

8 letters.

Thumbs up to anyone who gets it.

They don't name the compiler in the Times unfortunately.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2019, 01:41:45 AM
Quote from: Hattoff on December 20, 2019, 01:39:41 AM
Of slight interest but amusingly, Brian is clued in today's Times Crossword.

Faust Brian put together without leading notes, like Berg.

8 letters.

Thumbs up to anyone who gets it.

They don't name the compiler in the Times unfortunately.
The compiler is... John Grimshaw, Chairman of the Havergal Brian Society!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 20, 2019, 01:44:39 AM
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/when-your-life-is-always-puzzling-john-grimshaw-times2-crossword-compiler-marks-a-milestone-rntgj3tpl (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/when-your-life-is-always-puzzling-john-grimshaw-times2-crossword-compiler-marks-a-milestone-rntgj3tpl)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Hattoff on December 20, 2019, 02:06:59 AM
Excellent, I knew Brian fans were clever. ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on January 07, 2020, 10:03:40 AM
So I have been trying to figure out what is the proper tempo for the introduction to the first movement of the 27th Symphony. It's apparently marked Lento, but the three recordings I've heard of it seem to have drastically different ideas of how slow to play it. Brabbins takes that introduction at a rather jaunty pace, more like an Allegretto (assuming the flute's first two notes are quavers). There's a recording online of a California student orchestra that takes it exceedingly slowly indeed, to my ears way too slowly (but then I heard the work first in the Brabbins). On the other hand, Mackerras's venerable reading takes it at somewhere between Brabbins and the student orchestra, and sounds just right to me.

Has anyone seen the score? Does Brian use metronome markings? (I assume not, otherwise the rather extreme differences between the three performances would be hard to justify.) What does the group think?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2020, 11:05:04 AM
See for yourself... From volume 2 of MacDonald's classic series. I think Mackerras nails the tempo, too.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on January 07, 2020, 11:35:38 AM
Thanks Johan! So they're semiquavers not quavers, and maybe Brabbins's tempo isn't wrong either then. I still prefer Mackerras's though.

One very odd thing: all three recordings play the flute's fourth note as an A-flat, but MM's excerpt has it as a B-flat! A misprint somewhere?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2020, 11:43:50 AM
Well-spotted! It's a misprint. Look at the start of the Allegro...

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on January 07, 2020, 11:49:49 AM
Yep! I love how Brian turns that rather plaintive flute theme into something like a Handelian bourree... and then of course, the theme never returns in its original form!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 07, 2020, 11:52:25 AM
Indeed, always varying and voyaging onward! And that in his nineties...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on February 29, 2020, 04:40:37 PM
Any news about the Faust recording?  It recorded a while ago so just wondering when we'll hear something about a major new premiere recording?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 01, 2020, 10:14:19 PM
Well, the release date has not yet been announced. The latest issue of the HBS Newsletter contained extensive reports by Committee members about the recording sessions at the famous Abbey Road studios. If they are to be believed (and I have no reason not to), we're in for a treat.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on March 27, 2020, 11:37:10 AM
Here's a couple of interesting YouTube videos about the Gothic Symphony by composer Bret Newton:

https://youtu.be/j9wy0NgmRWc

https://youtu.be/YtvhoT9tWKk

Perhaps the most interesting comment by Bret is this remarkable statement:

"The more I dig into this piece, the more I uncover and the more I understand about this piece, the more I realise it is an ABSOLUTE MASTERPIECE, maybe one of the greatest symphonic pieces of the 20th century."

High praise indeed!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 27, 2020, 12:02:06 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on March 27, 2020, 11:37:10 AM
Here's a couple of interesting YouTube videos about the Gothic Symphony by composer Bret Newton:

https://youtu.be/j9wy0NgmRWc (https://youtu.be/j9wy0NgmRWc)

https://youtu.be/YtvhoT9tWKk (https://youtu.be/YtvhoT9tWKk)


Perhaps the most interesting comment by Bret is this remarkable statement:

"The more I dig into this piece, the more I uncover and the more I understand about this piece, the more I realise it is an ABSOLUTE MASTERPIECE, maybe one of the greatest symphonic pieces of the 20th century."

High praise indeed!
That's a great find, Klaatu! Of course, I agree with his assessment. I have been living with that beast for almost forty years, and I haven't fallen out of love with it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on March 31, 2020, 02:57:26 PM
Something of great interest in the news section on the HBS website.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 31, 2020, 03:04:08 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on March 31, 2020, 02:57:26 PM
Something of great interest in the news section on the HBS website.
Okay...
* hops sitewards *
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 31, 2020, 03:11:02 PM
Yes, this is exciting news! Almost as if Brian is speaking from the grave...
http://www.havergalbrian.org/news.php?id=40 (http://www.havergalbrian.org/news.php?id=40)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on March 31, 2020, 05:09:48 PM
Oh wow!!! That is very exciting news to hear there was a previously unknown symphony!!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 31, 2020, 09:05:18 PM
What's the date?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on April 01, 2020, 06:15:25 AM
Makes one wonder if there are any more pages of this work stuffed away somewhere. Was it Brian's habit to compose directly into full score?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on April 01, 2020, 06:35:17 AM
Quote from: krummholz on April 01, 2020, 06:15:25 AM
Makes one wonder if there are any more pages of this work stuffed away somewhere. Was it Brian's habit to compose directly into full score?

Well, tons of his works are lost or missing so the answer is definitely yes, many more pages stuffed away somewhere.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on April 01, 2020, 08:52:17 AM
Why'd they do this on April Fools Day? I don't know whether to believe it or not. The annoying thing is, that fragment does sound distinctly Brianic.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on April 01, 2020, 12:02:19 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on April 01, 2020, 08:52:17 AM
Why'd they do this on April Fools Day? I don't know whether to believe it or not. The annoying thing is, that fragment does sound distinctly Brianic.

I indeed hear nothing but fingerprints.  :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on April 02, 2020, 02:59:21 AM
The truth can now be told - no, Brian 33 does not exist. This was an affectionate joke to the community in order to raise a smile in these straitened times. The inspired imitation was composed by none other than John Pickard, and no-one knows HB's sound-world better than he does. We hope that you all are keeping safe and well in the various parts of the world.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 02, 2020, 03:04:32 AM
Haha! Brilliant! Yes, it was very late-Brian sounding, so this really convinced me. Well done, John Pickard!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on April 02, 2020, 06:04:23 AM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on April 02, 2020, 02:59:21 AM
The truth can now be told - no, Brian 33 does not exist. This was an affectionate joke to the community in order to raise a smile in these straitened times. The inspired imitation was composed by none other than John Pickard, and no-one knows HB's sound-world better than he does. We hope that you all are keeping safe and well in the various parts of the world.

If he has enough time to do that, have him do an orchestration of Prometheus Unbound please!  The vocal score has the piano part and is extant even though the full score was lost.  We want Prometheus Unbound! We want Prometheus Unbound! [everybody] We want Prometheus Unbound!...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 02, 2020, 06:21:07 AM
WE WANT PROMETHEUS UNBOUND!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on April 02, 2020, 07:04:10 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 02, 2020, 06:21:07 AM
WE WANT PROMETHEUS UNBOUND!

Perhaps Prometheus likes being tied up..... it takes all sorts....... ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 02, 2020, 07:49:55 AM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 02, 2020, 07:04:10 AM
Perhaps Prometheus likes being tied up..... it takes all sorts....... ;)
:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on April 02, 2020, 07:51:12 AM
Yup, fooled me too! But I agree with Christo, lots of fingerprints, not a whole lot of substance...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on April 05, 2020, 02:28:16 AM
I wouldn't expect substance from one page of manuscript. I kinda hoped April Fools would get into the sea where it belongs, what with the much bigger crisis we have on our hands right now. I was wrong.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on April 05, 2020, 03:16:37 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 02, 2020, 06:21:07 AM
WE WANT PROMETHEUS UNBOUND UNBOUND!!
#fixed
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on April 08, 2020, 06:21:13 AM
I may well have missed the relevant information here, but which label has Faust been recorded for? As it's Martyn Brabbins and ENO forces (there's luxury for you) I assume it's Dutton...

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 08, 2020, 06:43:20 AM
Quote from: Albion on April 08, 2020, 06:21:13 AM
I may well have missed the relevant information here, but which label has Faust been recorded for? As it's Martyn Brabbins and ENO forces (there's luxury for you) I assume it's Dutton...

:)
Yes, it's Dutton.
Keep safe!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on April 08, 2020, 07:01:18 AM
Thanks Johan! That's great news, Dutton deserves every accolade for maintaining an enterprising output in what were already difficult commercial times.

It's sobering to think that so many scheduled recordings, concerts and music festivals are now cancelled or curtailed, but I suppose that just goes to show how fragile culture is in the face of wider global problems and tragedy.

You keep safe as well, my friend.

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2020, 12:16:19 PM
A rare foray into opera for me but a friend kindly sent me this. Having said this it is not on Testament, although it seems to be the same recording but without any notes but including radio announcements. I'm quite enjoying its characteriic quirkiness:
(//)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 23, 2020, 12:30:41 PM
The Tigers is terrific. Among the most colourful and inventive things Brian ever wrote. As an opera it doesn't really work, the story is weird, but the music, the music... !
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2020, 01:23:59 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on June 23, 2020, 12:30:41 PM
The Tigers is terrific. Among the most colourful and inventive things Brian ever wrote. As an opera it doesn't really work, the story is weird, but the music, the music... !
That's my impression as well Johan. Thanks  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2020, 03:53:05 PM
Curious....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on June 23, 2020, 06:07:31 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on June 23, 2020, 12:16:19 PM
A rare foray into opera for me but a friend kindly sent me this. Having said this it is not on Testament, although it seems to be the same recording but without any notes but including radio announcements. I'm quite enjoying its characteriic quirkiness:
(//)

Oh I love it!  I don't know exactly how to introduce it to new listerners.  Perhaps the orchestral suite which is like a concerto for orchestra?  It's really brilliant.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on June 23, 2020, 09:45:53 PM
Quote from: relm1 on June 23, 2020, 06:07:31 PM
Oh I love it!  I don't know exactly how to introduce it to new listerners.  Perhaps the orchestral suite which is like a concerto for orchestra?  It's really brilliant.
Very interested to hear that you like it as well. I have some musical extracts on a Heritage CD with Foulds's impressive Pasquinade Symphonique No.1:
(//)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on June 23, 2020, 11:17:56 PM
I'm always naturally repelled by the idea of excerpts. I'll take the complete work, warts and all, for better or for worse.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Volny on August 01, 2020, 12:37:50 AM
Hi there - first time poster here.

I discovered the Gothic symphony this year, and I adore it. Though I'm still getting to know it, it's already clear to me that it's a masterpiece. Naturally, I've excitedly sampled quite a few of Brian's other symphonies since, but they all just leave me cold. I find this odd, since there are so many to choose from, representing almost half a century of creative development of the same mind that made the Gothic. And it's not even that I have an aversion to some of Brian's idiosyncracies as some others do: abrupt juxtapositions, heavy brass, lots of percussion - I actually like those elements.

I've not been able to put my finger on why they leave me so cold, though I came across a Fanfare review from some time ago where the reviewer complained that Brian's later symphonies seem devoid of emotion - noting for example that there's little that actually tangibly evokes tragedy in the "tragic" 6th. That resonated with me - OK, so I'm not the only one. Still, it's perplexing that emotion would be so lacking in the later symphonies, when the Gothic is so bursting with emotion at every seam: from tumultuous urgency to grim funereal melancholy, to giddy excitement.

So I suspect the problem lies with me, not with Brian. And I suspect that I need to pick one or two symphonies and really commit myself to listening to them multiple times, until their secrets open up to me. So, my question is: which one or two symphonies should I settle on? Which would be the most likely to appeal - after several focused listens - to someone who resonates with the Gothic, with its gravitas, its cinematographic spaciousness, its almost psychedelically surreal episodes?

Oh, and although the 4th might make a good candidate on paper due to its epic war setting and choral nature, I don't think it's for me as I find it too operatic, which is not my cup of tea.

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 02, 2020, 12:31:08 AM
Quote from: Volny on August 01, 2020, 12:37:50 AM
Hi there - first time poster here.

I discovered the Gothic symphony this year, and I adore it. Though I'm still getting to know it, it's already clear to me that it's a masterpiece. Naturally, I've excitedly sampled quite a few of Brian's other symphonies since, but they all just leave me cold. I find this odd, since there are so many to choose from, representing almost half a century of creative development of the same mind that made the Gothic. And it's not even that I have an aversion to some of Brian's idiosyncracies as some others do: abrupt juxtapositions, heavy brass, lots of percussion - I actually like those elements.

I've not been able to put my finger on why they leave me so cold, though I came across a Fanfare review from some time ago where the reviewer complained that Brian's later symphonies seem devoid of emotion - noting for example that there's little that actually tangibly evokes tragedy in the "tragic" 6th. That resonated with me - OK, so I'm not the only one. Still, it's perplexing that emotion would be so lacking in the later symphonies, when the Gothic is so bursting with emotion at every seam: from tumultuous urgency to grim funereal melancholy, to giddy excitement.

So I suspect the problem lies with me, not with Brian. And I suspect that I need to pick one or two symphonies and really commit myself to listening to them multiple times, until their secrets open up to me. So, my question is: which one or two symphonies should I settle on? Which would be the most likely to appeal - after several focused listens - to someone who resonates with the Gothic, with its gravitas, its cinematographic spaciousness, its almost psychedelically surreal episodes?

Oh, and although the 4th might make a good candidate on paper due to its epic war setting and choral nature, I don't think it's for me as I find it too operatic, which is not my cup of tea.

Thanks in advance!

Unfortunately Brian wrote only one Gothic, the other symphonies are increasingly different. There is emotion in them, but probably a very British sort of emotion that looks to anyone else like a lack of emotion, call it reflective stoicism if you will.
Perhaps start at the very end, #32. That piece to me is dripping with poignancy.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vers la flamme on August 02, 2020, 03:10:05 AM
Which Gothic Symphony recording is "the one to get"? The Marco Polo? Or is the Hyperion w/ Martyn Brabbins perhaps better? I do enjoy his conducting.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Volny on August 02, 2020, 03:28:35 AM
Word on the street seems to be pretty unanimous that the Hyperion one is the clear winner (don't let the inexplicably amateurish CD cover throw you). The Marco Polo/Naxos has had some semi-decent reviews, though Mark Morris in his excellent 20th Century music guide was uncharacteristically harsh and called it a travesty (http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mark_Morris/UK.htm#brian), and "....a skeleton stripped of all its flesh and muscle".
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vers la flamme on August 02, 2020, 03:39:11 AM
Quote from: Volny on August 02, 2020, 03:28:35 AM
Word on the street seems to be pretty unanimous that the Hyperion one is the clear winner (don't let the inexplicably amateurish CD cover throw you). The Marco Polo/Naxos has had some semi-decent reviews, though Mark Morris in his excellent 20th Century music guide was uncharacteristically harsh and called it a travesty (http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mark_Morris/UK.htm#brian), and "....a skeleton stripped of all its flesh and muscle".

Hmm, OK. Thanks for the comments. Furthermore, welcome to GMG! Hope you stick around. You'll find a bunch of Brian/Gothic Symphony fans here, a group to which I don't belong, but have long been curious about this composer at least.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Christo on August 02, 2020, 03:47:26 AM
Quote from: Volny on August 02, 2020, 03:28:35 AM
Word on the street seems to be pretty unanimous that the Hyperion one is the clear winner (don't let the inexplicably amateurish CD cover throw you). The Marco Polo/Naxos has had some semi-decent reviews, though Mark Morris in his excellent 20th Century music guide was uncharacteristically harsh and called it a travesty (http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mark_Morris/UK.htm#brian), and "....a skeleton stripped of all its flesh and muscle".
I'm not the only one who's far more positive about the Lenard/Bratislava performance (now on Naxos), which I find really competive with the newer one under Martyn Brabbins.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 02, 2020, 04:56:10 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 02, 2020, 03:47:26 AM
I'm not the only one who's far more positive about the Lenard/Bratislava performance (now on Naxos), which I find really competive with the newer one under Martyn Brabbins.

For me, they're a draw.  Brabbins wins in some moments and Lenard/Bratislava wins in others.  It's definitely not something I would agree "pretty unanimous that the Hyperion one is the clear winner".  I have both and like them for different reasons. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 02, 2020, 05:27:50 AM
@Volny
Welcome to the HB thread! I sympathise with your problems concerning Brian's later symphonies. The Gothic is a one-off. Symphonies 2-4 inhabit parts of its world, without really sounding like it. Brian is always fresh and different. As for the term 'later symphonies', I do think that they come in two batches, as Malcolm MacDonald posited: 6-17 and 18-32. Symphonies 6-17 still have something epic and Romantic about them, whereas 18-32 have a cooller, more abstract feel, with counterpoint predominant. Every Brian symphony has to be grappled with. Some have immediate appeal (I think), like 3, 6, 7, 8, 10 and 22. Others are 'intermediate', like 16, 27 and 30. And then there are a few that don't want to ingratiate themselves at all, like 23, 25 and 26. I suggest you try to 'get' a symphony one at a time. Simply try to understand how a Brian symphony operates, once you get used to the style, you can explore some more. Good luck!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 02, 2020, 10:35:29 AM
Quote from: Christo on August 02, 2020, 03:47:26 AM
I'm not the only one who's far more positive about the Lenard/Bratislava performance (now on Naxos), which I find really competive with the newer one under Martyn Brabbins.
I also like that performance as well, not to mention Boult's one.

Volny. Welcome to the forum. My recommendation would definitely to be for Symphony 8 which I find to be a searching, eloquent and moving work. My favourite recording is conducted by Sir Charles Groves. I also agree with Johan's recommendations above this post:
(//)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 02, 2020, 12:46:48 PM
As others have said, the Gothic was a one-off and there is really no other symphony in Brian's output that has those same qualities you mention in combination - gravitas, cinematographic spaciousness, psychedelic surreality... you will certainly find all of those qualities in his later symphonies, but not all in combination. For gravitas I would recommend the 8th, the 16th, and the 30th; for spaciousness, the 7th and the 21st. For psychedelic surreality perhaps the 18th, the 23rd, or even the 27th.

One characteristic of Brian's later symphonies is the constantly changing instrumental combinations that some have called "kaleidoscopic", and can also give the impression of surreality. There is no better example of this than the second movement of the 23rd, which moves in a couple short minutes from a few bars of string quartet to a rollicking march for different instrumental combinations and the occasional wham! of the full tutti.

Congratulations, though, on trying to come to terms with the very different composer that Brian became in his later years as compared with when he wrote the Gothic. Some folks can relate to the earlier Brian better than the later and there is no failing in that, it's just personal taste. Others prefer the later Brian to the earlier - I count myself in this group, but that's largely because I favor music that is terse and compact over that which is sprawling and overflowing with ideas. Again, just personal taste. The Gothic is still an amazing masterpiece by a composer that the musical world had largely forgotten, and continued to ignore for another 30 years.

Good luck in your explorations!

Quote from: Volny on August 01, 2020, 12:37:50 AM
Hi there - first time poster here.

I discovered the Gothic symphony this year, and I adore it. Though I'm still getting to know it, it's already clear to me that it's a masterpiece. Naturally, I've excitedly sampled quite a few of Brian's other symphonies since, but they all just leave me cold. I find this odd, since there are so many to choose from, representing almost half a century of creative development of the same mind that made the Gothic. And it's not even that I have an aversion to some of Brian's idiosyncracies as some others do: abrupt juxtapositions, heavy brass, lots of percussion - I actually like those elements.

I've not been able to put my finger on why they leave me so cold, though I came across a Fanfare review from some time ago where the reviewer complained that Brian's later symphonies seem devoid of emotion - noting for example that there's little that actually tangibly evokes tragedy in the "tragic" 6th. That resonated with me - OK, so I'm not the only one. Still, it's perplexing that emotion would be so lacking in the later symphonies, when the Gothic is so bursting with emotion at every seam: from tumultuous urgency to grim funereal melancholy, to giddy excitement.

So I suspect the problem lies with me, not with Brian. And I suspect that I need to pick one or two symphonies and really commit myself to listening to them multiple times, until their secrets open up to me. So, my question is: which one or two symphonies should I settle on? Which would be the most likely to appeal - after several focused listens - to someone who resonates with the Gothic, with its gravitas, its cinematographic spaciousness, its almost psychedelically surreal episodes?

Oh, and although the 4th might make a good candidate on paper due to its epic war setting and choral nature, I don't think it's for me as I find it too operatic, which is not my cup of tea.

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 03, 2020, 01:21:18 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 02, 2020, 04:56:10 AM
For me, they're a draw.  Brabbins wins in some moments and Lenard/Bratislava wins in others.  It's definitely not something I would agree "pretty unanimous that the Hyperion one is the clear winner".  I have both and like them for different reasons.

Fair comment which I agree with.  Glad to have the Boult live version too.  I think the choral sound in the Lenard is better.  Those Eastern European choirs make a sound Brits just can't!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 03, 2020, 02:30:49 AM
Just playing this. I've always loved No.8 but had not realised how good No.14 is. It is oddly Sibelian in places. Excellent notes from a familiar Dutch contributor to this thread  ;D
(//)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Volny on August 03, 2020, 02:43:41 AM
I should have known better than to purport to speak on behalf of 'the street'!  ;D

I've only heard snippets of the Bratislava myself. Of the few samples I heard, some (eg. the xylophone solo) sounded a bit muddier than the Hyperion. According to that Mark Morris quote I linked to, some of the instruments were actually missing in the Bratislava (or at least under-levelled in the recording - not sure which he meant). Judging by the rest of Morris' [effusively glowing] description of the symphony, he seemed to know it very well - presumably from the sheet music, the Gould recording, and perhaps also from witnessing the unrecorded 1980s performance. Still, I have no doubt that the Bratislava has strengths as well as weaknesses, and I'm sure I'll buy it at some stage and come to appreciate what it has to offer.

I suspect none of us have heard anything close to an ideal performance of the Gothic, and I suppose we probably never will :(. Performances are so rare and the forces required so great that there probably hasn't been much opportunity for all the musicians involved to really 'grow into' the symphony's full potential. Reading reviews and sleeve notes of the BBC/Hyperion performance, one gets the sense that many of the people involved were so exhilarated by the mere logistical achievement of getting 800+ performers to play in time and not trip over each other into a gigantic pile-up of frocks and brass, that the actual artistic merits of the performance were almost of secondary importance.

Anyway, thanks very much for your kind suggestions. Trying to take all suggestions on board, and be open to multiple parts of Brian's spectrum, I guess I'll shortlist 3, 8, 23, 32 to be the ones to try and sink my teeth into.

By the way, does anyone know if there's a digitised version of Malcolm Macdonald's triple volume work about Brian's symphonies available to purchase and/or download anywhere?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 03, 2020, 02:57:22 AM
Listen to 22 first, Volny. Symphonies 22-24 form a trilogy, and that middle panel, so to speak, makes more sense if you have heard 22 first...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 03, 2020, 03:08:51 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 03, 2020, 02:30:49 AMExcellent notes from a familiar Dutch contributor to this thread  ;D

Just reread them... 2012... A long time ago. Thanks for the compliment, Jeffrey!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Daverz on August 03, 2020, 03:51:08 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 03, 2020, 02:30:49 AM
Just playing this. I've always loved No.8 but had not realised how good No.14 is. It is oddly Sibelian in places. Excellent notes from a familiar Dutch contributor to this thread  ;D

What is the label? I can't make it out.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 03, 2020, 03:57:34 AM
Quote from: Daverz on August 03, 2020, 03:51:08 AM
What is the label? I can't make it out.
Look here...
http://klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-No--8-No--14.php (http://klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-No--8-No--14.php)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 03, 2020, 05:15:21 AM
Quote from: Volny on August 03, 2020, 02:43:41 AM
Anyway, thanks very much for your kind suggestions. Trying to take all suggestions on board, and be open to multiple parts of Brian's spectrum, I guess I'll shortlist 3, 8, 23, 32 to be the ones to try and sink my teeth into.

Be aware, though, that 22 through 24 form a sort of trilogy, so it makes sense to listen to all of them and not just #23. I think this is the only recording of all of them together that's currently available:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAzMDE4NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

Edit: I see that Johan beat me to it! Thanks, Johan.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 03, 2020, 06:15:12 AM
Quote from: krummholz on August 03, 2020, 05:15:21 AM
Be aware, though, that 22 through 24 form a sort of trilogy, so it makes sense to listen to all of them and not just #23. I think this is the only recording of all of them together that's currently available:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAzMDE4NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

Edit: I see that Johan beat me to it! Thanks, Johan.
No.22 is one of my favourites along with 1 (of course!),3,6,7,8,9,10 (one of the best),11,16 and 17.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 03, 2020, 06:32:41 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 03, 2020, 06:15:12 AM
No.22 is one of my favourites along with 1 (of course!),3,6,7,8,9,10 (one of the best),11,16 and 17.
Am I correct in happily deducing that your canon of Brian favourites has been quietly widened, Jeffrey?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 03, 2020, 11:41:18 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 03, 2020, 06:32:41 AM
Am I correct in happily deducing that your canon of Brian favourites has been quietly widened, Jeffrey?
I think so Johan, although there was always a 'hard-core' of Brian symphonies that I liked, ever since attending that Ole Schmidt performance of Symphony No.1 which may have been the first time I heard any Brian. Actually I probably had the Groves LP of 8 and 9 before then. Coincidentally listening to this terrific (premiere) performance. Great notes too  ;D:
I prefer it to the Hyperion recording.
(//)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on August 04, 2020, 02:14:51 AM
I think my core favourites are 1, 2, 6, 9 & 10.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vers la flamme on August 04, 2020, 02:31:32 AM
Are there any Brian fans out there who do not like the Gothic?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2020, 03:08:08 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 04, 2020, 02:31:32 AM
Are there any Brian fans out there who do not like the Gothic?
I seem to remember one or two who find Part 2 a bit hard to swallow. But they are in the minority (of a minority!) Most Brian fans love the work.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Biffo on August 04, 2020, 03:12:25 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 04, 2020, 02:31:32 AM
Are there any Brian fans out there who do not like the Gothic?

Me but I am probably not a fan. I have a few of the symphonies and a handful of other works though I don't listen to them very often. I have never managed to get to the end of the Gothic symphony; it gets off to a good start but the unrelenting turgid choral sound wears me down.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 04, 2020, 03:54:33 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on August 04, 2020, 02:14:51 AM
I think my core favourites are 1, 2, 6, 9 & 10.
I like all those ones too. I do struggle a bit with the choral second half of the Gothic (although it has a wonderful coda). I went through a period of only listening to movements 1-3 but now (if I have time!) I tend to listen to it right through. I was shocked yesterday to find the Brabbins CD still in its cellophane wrapper even though I bought it when it first came out  :o. However, like some others here I was at the concert and remember what a great experience that was.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 04, 2020, 05:40:21 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on August 04, 2020, 02:31:32 AM
Are there any Brian fans out there who do not like the Gothic?

I certainly like it a great deal, even though I generally prefer the later symphonies to the earlier. Among the earlier ones, the 3rd slightly edges out the Gothic in my ranking of personal favourites.

Among the later symphonies, the only ones that really leave me cold and perplexed are #13 and #26. I love especially #8, #11, #16, #18, #21, the trilogy #22-#24, #27, #29, and #30.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 04, 2020, 06:17:29 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2020, 03:08:08 AM
I seem to remember one or two who find Part 2 a bit hard to swallow. But they are in the minority (of a minority!) Most Brian fans love the work.

Yes, and some of us are hardcore obsessive about the work!  I have never heard the violin or cello concerto.  Any good?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2020, 06:20:56 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 04, 2020, 06:17:29 AM
Yes, and some of us are hardcore obsessive about the work!  I have never heard the violin or cello concerto.  Any good?
Both are wonderful. Recommended!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2020, 06:27:41 AM
Quote from: krummholz on August 04, 2020, 05:40:21 AM
I certainly like it a great deal, even though I generally prefer the later symphonies to the earlier. Among the earlier ones, the 3rd slightly edges out the Gothic in my ranking of personal favourites.

Among the later symphonies, the only ones that really leave me cold and perplexed are #13 and #26. I love especially #8, #11, #16, #18, #21, the trilogy #22-#24, #27, #29, and #30.
Because it seems people are revealing their core Brian canons... After more than forty years of living with Brian's music, I cannot do without any of it... But symphonies 1, 3, 6, 8, 10, 11, 13, 16, 22, 27, 28, 30, 31 certainly get much love from me. The Third English Suite, the Tigers, and the Turandot Suite also get many hearings. And the two concertos... Hm, choosing is hopeless!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 04, 2020, 07:03:27 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2020, 06:27:41 AM
Because it seems people are revealing their core Brian canons... After more than forty years of living with Brian's music, I cannot do without any of it... But symphonies 1, 3, 6, 8, 10, 11, 13, 16, 22, 27, 28, 30, 31 certainly get much love from me. The Third English Suite, the Tigers, and the Turandot Suite also get many hearings. And the two concertos... Hm, choosing is hopeless!

Which two concertos? Were there not three? Although the Concerto for Orchestra is really a Symphony in all but name, and another one in my "core canon".

I have also not heard the Cello Concerto and wasn't aware until now that an extant recording existed... shall be ordered soon.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81OlWvR-k0L._SX522_.jpg)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 04, 2020, 07:06:00 AM
Quote from: krummholz on August 04, 2020, 07:03:27 AM
Which two concertos? Were there not three? Although the Concerto for Orchestra is really a Symphony in all but name, and another one in my "core canon".

I have also not heard the Cello Concerto and wasn't aware until now that an extant recording existed... shall be ordered soon.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81OlWvR-k0L._SX522_.jpg)
You're right! I forgot about the Concerto for Orchestra... That makes three.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 08, 2020, 05:20:57 AM
I listened to the Concerto for Orchestra again the other night... I still think it's very good, but maybe on second blush, not quite in my core canon. More likely in my second tier, along with works like #2, #25, or #28.

But here's a question I've been mulling over: are there any composers who show the influence of Brian? As far as I know he didn't teach (?), but surely someone must have found some aspects of his style sympatico enough to have absorbed them. Perhaps a fellow Brit?

I have to say that in my own humble efforts, as much as I love Brian, I don't think he has influenced me at all. I do tend to think contrapuntally, polyphonically, but I believe that comes from elsewhere (including the fellow in my avatar ;)) Also, I've yet to write anything for full orchestra.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 08, 2020, 06:32:13 AM
Quote from: krummholz on August 08, 2020, 05:20:57 AM
But here's a question I've been mulling over: are there any composers who show the influence of Brian? As far as I know he didn't teach (?), but surely someone must have found some aspects of his style sympatico enough to have absorbed them. Perhaps a fellow Brit?

I think he was influential to Robert Simpson.  Sometimes a composer influences others in ways that are beyond how closely they sound to each other.  Like you take a piece or two of what they do and incorporate it into your vernacular. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 08, 2020, 07:02:40 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 08, 2020, 06:32:13 AM
I think he was influential to Robert Simpson.  Sometimes a composer influences others in ways that are beyond how closely they sound to each other.  Like you take a piece or two of what they do and incorporate it into your vernacular.

Yes, I think you're right about Simpson and should have mentioned him as a singular possibility, but I was thinking mainly of later 20th century composers who weren't personally acquainted with Brian, but who fell under his influence through listening and study.

Re: Simpson, as a specific example I've often wondered if the course of events in the first movement of Simpson's 8th Symphony wasn't to some extent influenced by the first movement of Brian's 28th. Both start out with a rather perky theme in the winds, and both become increasingly invaded by sinister, disruptive ideas and a sense of impending chaos. Simpson goes into rather different territory from Brian toward the end of the movement, and of course the idea for the symphony was famously suggested by a friend, but I wonder if there wasn't an influence in the way the music evolves.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Leggiero on August 13, 2020, 09:24:02 AM
QuoteBut here's a question I've been mulling over: are there any composers who show the influence of Brian? As far as I know he didn't teach (?), but surely someone must have found some aspects of his style sympatico enough to have absorbed them. Perhaps a fellow Brit?

There are clear echoes of Brian (particularly the Gothic and the 8th Symphony) in Steve Elcock's 3rd Symphony (Toccata Classics); no obvious influence in other Elcock pieces I've heard, mind.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 13, 2020, 05:22:24 PM
Quote from: Leggiero on August 13, 2020, 09:24:02 AM
There are clear echoes of Brian (particularly the Gothic and the 8th Symphony) in Steve Elcock's 3rd Symphony (Toccata Classics); no obvious influence in other Elcock pieces I've heard, mind.

Thanks -- that's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I have never heard anything by Elcock, but will look up his 3rd Symphony and see if anyone has uploaded a recording to YouTube or similar.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Leggiero on August 13, 2020, 09:41:26 PM
QuoteThanks -- that's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I have never heard anything by Elcock, but will look up his 3rd Symphony and see if anyone has uploaded a recording to YouTube or similar.

No worries ;D. It looks like someone has, along with various other pieces (both volumes of his orchestral music released to date appear to be on YouTube, essentially). Elcock is well worth checking out in his own right, regardless of any Brian connection, as are his labelmates Rodney Newton and David Hackbridge Johnson, the latter seemingly a bona fide polymath genius whom music and poetry pour out of (excitingly, he's written well into the teens of symphonies before the age of 60). All three (to name just three) are doing a fine job of keeping symphonism in the UK alive.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 14, 2020, 04:51:31 PM
Quote from: Leggiero on August 13, 2020, 09:41:26 PM
No worries ;D. It looks like someone has, along with various other pieces (both volumes of his orchestral music released to date appear to be on YouTube, essentially). Elcock is well worth checking out in his own right, regardless of any Brian connection, as are his labelmates Rodney Newton and David Hackbridge Johnson, the latter seemingly a bona fide polymath genius whom music and poetry pour out of (excitingly, he's written well into the teens of symphonies before the age of 60). All three (to name just three) are doing a fine job of keeping symphonism in the UK alive.

+1
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 19, 2020, 05:22:04 AM
Something I just thought about...HB doesn't really do long form.  I can't really think of anything I've heard from him that can be considered long form taught structured music.  For example, the Gothic, even though there are several long movements the last lasting nearly 40 minutes, these are a series of vignettes rather than a single idea developed throughout.  The same with his single movement symphonies.  It is very hard to tell the movement that starts has any relation to the half way point to the end.  This is a characteristic quality of his music but sometimes one longs for a theme that develops throughout the work so you understand how we got to where we are by the time of the end.  In contrast to the symphonies of Mahler, Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams, Prokofiev all follow structure.  Not necessarily strictly (Shostakovich 4) but each minute develops from what came before.  Most especially in the war symphonies of Shostakakovich where there is a general transformation of the opening material through struggle into triumph or transcendence.  With Sibelius the same is done though more cerebrally.  With Mahler the same is done but with more grandiosity.  Yes, I am generalizing here and there are exceptions but this is generally.

My question: are there any examples of long structure (think sonata form or equivalent but at its most basic explanation, think a connected traceable flow of the musical material from start to finish) in any works of HB?  Put another way, which of his symphonies is the best example of how HB would do long structure?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on August 19, 2020, 05:40:54 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 19, 2020, 05:22:04 AM
Something I just thought about...HB doesn't really do long form.  I can't really think of anything I've heard from him that can be considered long form taught structured music.  For example, the Gothic, even though there are several long movements the last lasting nearly 40 minutes, these are a series of vignettes rather than a single idea developed throughout.  The same with his single movement symphonies.  It is very hard to tell the movement that starts has any relation to the half way point to the end.  This is a characteristic quality of his music but sometimes one longs for a theme that develops throughout the work so you understand how we got to where we are by the time of the end.  In contrast to the symphonies of Mahler, Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams, Prokofiev all follow structure.  Not necessarily strictly (Shostakovich 4) but each minute develops from what came before.  Most especially in the war symphonies of Shostakakovich where there is a general transformation of the opening material through struggle into triumph or transcendence.  With Sibelius the same is done though more cerebrally.  With Mahler the same is done but with more grandiosity.  Yes, I am generalizing here and there are exceptions but this is generally.

My question: are there any examples of long structure (think sonata form or equivalent but at its most basic explanation, think a connected traceable flow of the musical material from start to finish) in any works of HB?  Put another way, which of his symphonies is the best example of how HB would do long structure?
Off the top of my head I am thinking the 10th, especially the first movement. But (off the top of my head) I can't give you much more specifics. Let's see if someone else can (or if I get a chance to listen to it again soon.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 19, 2020, 07:50:19 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 19, 2020, 05:22:04 AM
Something I just thought about...HB doesn't really do long form.  I can't really think of anything I've heard from him that can be considered long form taught structured music.  For example, the Gothic, even though there are several long movements the last lasting nearly 40 minutes, these are a series of vignettes rather than a single idea developed throughout.  The same with his single movement symphonies.  It is very hard to tell the movement that starts has any relation to the half way point to the end.  This is a characteristic quality of his music but sometimes one longs for a theme that develops throughout the work so you understand how we got to where we are by the time of the end.  In contrast to the symphonies of Mahler, Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams, Prokofiev all follow structure.  Not necessarily strictly (Shostakovich 4) but each minute develops from what came before.  Most especially in the war symphonies of Shostakakovich where there is a general transformation of the opening material through struggle into triumph or transcendence.  With Sibelius the same is done though more cerebrally.  With Mahler the same is done but with more grandiosity.  Yes, I am generalizing here and there are exceptions but this is generally.

My question: are there any examples of long structure (think sonata form or equivalent but at its most basic explanation, think a connected traceable flow of the musical material from start to finish) in any works of HB?  Put another way, which of his symphonies is the best example of how HB would do long structure?

Well, there are basic ideas in the Gothic that are transformed throughout the symphony. If you just focus on the 1st movement it is a pretty standard sonata form movement although some new ideas are introduced in the development. If you want a "long form symphony" then maybe the 3rd, or perhaps the 7th, at least within individual movements. Or the 31st, which though there is certainly a lot of new material that comes in during the course of the work, still keeps finding new contexts for those first descending four notes.

Maybe there are many more examples as well... Brian tends to ALLUDE to earlier ideas rather than develop them in a classical way. If you allow that kind of procedure as a basis for "long form", it might be that MOST of his work exhibits it. But it depends on how you define "long form", and I'm not 100% clear on your definition. "Traceable flow" is a bit hard to pin down (at least for me).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 19, 2020, 08:18:27 AM
Interesting question about the presence or absence of a 'long form' in Brian. I am with Krummholz, I think. Brian always spoke about 'balance of form'. This suggests to me he was all about tension, flux, transformation and conflict, and not goal-oriented striving for a resolution. Although many endings of Brian symphonies are unforgettable, they are not a Brucknerian summit or apotheosis. Brian is not that kind of composer. He creates an experience in every symphony, we are on the move with his music, which likes contrasts and opppositions. We open to a world of flux kept in check. My few cents.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 19, 2020, 01:51:19 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 19, 2020, 08:18:27 AM
Interesting question about the presence or absence of a 'long form' in Brian. I am with Krummholz, I think. Brian always spoke about 'balance of form'. This suggests to me he was all about tension, flux, transformation and conflict, and not goal-oriented striving for a resolution. Although many endings of Brian symphonies are unforgettable, they are not a Brucknerian summit or apotheosis. Brian is not that kind of composer. He creates an experience in every symphony, we are on the move with his music, which likes contrasts and opppositions. We open to a world of flux kept in check. My few cents.
I agree, Brian's music to me depicts the flux of experience where nothing recurs as itself, but as memories, allusions and distortions. And rarely is any mood sustained beyond a few minutes before it is contradicted, or swept aside by another thought.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on August 20, 2020, 12:13:32 AM
The 10th doesn't have a first movement, it has an only movement.

What about the Adagio first movement of No. 11? That feels like a single unbroken thought.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 20, 2020, 05:34:19 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on August 20, 2020, 12:13:32 AM
The 10th doesn't have a first movement, it has an only movement.

What about the Adagio first movement of No. 11? That feels like a single unbroken thought.

Will check out the 11th again.  Is that the Agamemnon prelude one...which I do like, just don't remember which that was.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 20, 2020, 05:50:41 AM
Quote from: krummholz on August 19, 2020, 07:50:19 AM
If you allow that kind of procedure as a basis for "long form", it might be that MOST of his work exhibits it. But it depends on how you define "long form", and I'm not 100% clear on your definition. "Traceable flow" is a bit hard to pin down (at least for me).

Let me try to further elaborate on long structure.  In a strict sonata form, there is a main "A theme", usually dramatic and in the home key (the tonic).  It will probably get repeated a few times to set it firmly in memory.  Then there is a contrasting "B" theme that would be in a related but contrasting key such as the relative major/minor or the dominant (the fifth of the tonic).  The dominant key is the place of maximum contrast and is furthest away from the tonic.  This section should be contrasting so if the opening A theme was dramatic, the B theme would be lyrical or even comedic for instance.  It generally has little melodic or dramatic similarities to the A theme.  As the B theme continues, it builds, ebbs and flows and the material goes through a "development" section where elements of the original A theme come back to the fore but are in a very harmonically unstable place.  This section develops and expands on the material and builds and builds until bursting at the seams, we reach the Big RECAPITULATION!...this is the grand statement of the opening theme now with guns ablazing.  The B theme could also b heard as a counterpoint to the A theme - the contrasting sections all make sense and everything has pointed to this moment in the sonata.  We understand what it all was striving for and what it al means.  This is the basis of the Sonata form.  In the romantic era, composers added a prologue and maybe a coda.  For example, rather than starting with the A theme, they might start with a contrasting harmony of tension that gradually builds and builds until finally the tension is resolved and we arrive at the tonic where the A theme is stated forcefully.  This is how Bruckner would have done it.  Similarly a coda could have some moments of thoughtfulness after the recapitulation like how Shostakovich ends the first movement of the 5th symphony quietly after the dramatic recapitulation.  Eventually composers weren't so strict about harmony and harmonic tension, resolution but used the idea of the sonata as dramatic or expressive.  The ideas of principal idea and secondary idea were still there but the relationship might be less formal.  This is definitely present with 20th century symphonic works like Sibelius and Vaughan Williams.  But the general idea of theme 1, contrasting theme 2, development of some kind, climactic return to the opening ideas in a new "revealed" way then an apotheosis - the main character has been transformed through the journey and are no longer the same.  In some of the greatest symphonies, all the ideas are traceable to the opening few notes.  For example Beethoven Symphony No. 5, the "fate" motif is heard in every movement and transformed at the end from C minor to C major.  Some say the whole symphony is in the opening notes.

This is the basis of the idea of long form that I was alluding to.  So in the context of HB, this would at the very least mean there is a unifying thread or idea that evolves and develops throughout but is always related to the opening material.  This also makes a symphony feel like a whole world to itself rather than just a lot of music that has nothing to do with what came before.  For example,  the sound world of Shostakovich No. 12 is very different from No. 13 from No. 14 from No. 15.  They are whole symphonies and you can not take a minute from one and switch it with a minute from another symphony.  It just would no longer fit.  I would say the same is not the case with HB.  You actually can't really tell, aside from the Gothic or ones that have unique instrumentation like the vocal symphonies, what symphony that minute came from because it would blend right in to any other.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 20, 2020, 06:11:20 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 20, 2020, 05:34:19 AM
Will check out the 11th again.  Is that the Agamemnon prelude one...which I do like, just don't remember which that was.

I think the 12th is the one that is associated with Agamemnon. The 11th is a relaxed 3 movement work that begins with a glowing Adagio. The 2nd movement quotes the sleigh bells from Mahler's 4th. Does that help jog your memory?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 20, 2020, 06:26:56 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 20, 2020, 05:50:41 AM
Let me try to further elaborate on long structure.  In a strict sonata form, there is a main "A theme", usually dramatic and in the home key (the tonic).  It will probably get repeated a few times to set it firmly in memory.  Then there is a contrasting "B" theme that would be in a related but contrasting key such as the relative major/minor or the dominant (the fifth of the tonic).  The dominant key is the place of maximum contrast and is furthest away from the tonic.  This section should be contrasting so if the opening A theme was dramatic, the B theme would be lyrical or even comedic for instance.  It generally has little melodic or dramatic similarities to the A theme.  As the B theme continues, it builds, ebbs and flows and the material goes through a "development" section where elements of the original A theme come back to the fore but are in a very harmonically unstable place.  This section develops and expands on the material and builds and builds until bursting at the seams, we reach the Big RECAPITULATION!...this is the grand statement of the opening theme now with guns ablazing.  The B theme could also b heard as a counterpoint to the A theme - the contrasting sections all make sense and everything has pointed to this moment in the sonata.  We understand what it all was striving for and what it al means.  This is the basis of the Sonata form.  In the romantic era, composers added a prologue and maybe a coda.  For example, rather than starting with the A theme, they might start with a contrasting harmony of tension that gradually builds and builds until finally the tension is resolved and we arrive at the tonic where the A theme is stated forcefully.  This is how Bruckner would have done it.  Similarly a coda could have some moments of thoughtfulness after the recapitulation like how Shostakovich ends the first movement of the 5th symphony quietly after the dramatic recapitulation.  Eventually composers weren't so strict about harmony and harmonic tension, resolution but used the idea of the sonata as dramatic or expressive.  The ideas of principal idea and secondary idea were still there but the relationship might be less formal.  This is definitely present with 20th century symphonic works like Sibelius and Vaughan Williams.  But the general idea of theme 1, contrasting theme 2, development of some kind, climactic return to the opening ideas in a new "revealed" way then an apotheosis - the main character has been transformed through the journey and are no longer the same.  In some of the greatest symphonies, all the ideas are traceable to the opening few notes.  For example Beethoven Symphony No. 5, the "fate" motif is heard in every movement and transformed at the end from C minor to C major.  Some say the whole symphony is in the opening notes.

This is the basis of the idea of long form that I was alluding to.  So in the context of HB, this would at the very least mean there is a unifying thread or idea that evolves and develops throughout but is always related to the opening material.  This also makes a symphony feel like a whole world to itself rather than just a lot of music that has nothing to do with what came before.  For example,  the sound world of Shostakovich No. 12 is very different from No. 13 from No. 14 from No. 15.  They are whole symphonies and you can not take a minute from one and switch it with a minute from another symphony.  It just would no longer fit.  I would say the same is not the case with HB.  You actually can't really tell, aside from the Gothic or ones that have unique instrumentation like the vocal symphonies, what symphony that minute came from because it would blend right in to any other.

Very nice description of sonata form! I agree that after the first three symphonies, HB doesn't really write sonata form movements (with a couple of possible exceptions -- the first movement of the 18th comes to mind, though it's not strict sonata form by any means). As to whether passages in Brian are interchangeable between symphonies, I can see where one might get that impression, and maybe my perspective is skewed by having listened to them so many times, but I don't think it's true. Most of the symphonies have their own sound world, and I couldn't imagine plopping a passage from, say, the 30th into the 31st and having it not sound very much out of place. As another example, I can't imagine taking *anything* from the 15th and splicing it into any other Brian symphony. The 15th might also be a good example of a work that has an easily discerned "long form" (or at least a "long line" of musical thought), where ideas are consistently worked with and transformed over long spans of time... although the train of thought moves in anything but a straight line, and there are many deviations, backtracks, and an unexpected arrival or two. The 27th, also, with its flute protagonist and brass/percussion eruptions (possibly the most Ives-like writing anywhere in Brian, IMO), seems to be a world unto its own... and it all coheres quite well, even though formally, there doesn't seem to be so much as a trace of sonata form anywhere in the work.

In any case, thanks for the clarification and the stimulating discussion. There is always so much in Brian's work that challenges, sometimes even perplexes... which is what, to me anyway, makes him such a fascinating composer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 20, 2020, 04:20:17 PM
Quote from: krummholz on August 20, 2020, 06:11:20 AM
I think the 12th is the one that is associated with Agamemnon. The 11th is a relaxed 3 movement work that begins with a glowing Adagio. The 2nd movement quotes the sleigh bells from Mahler's 4th. Does that help jog your memory?

Thanks, will investigate.  I hope all understand I'm a tremendous HB fan but also somewhat of a musicologist so analyze not just listen.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 20, 2020, 04:23:04 PM
Quote from: krummholz on August 20, 2020, 06:26:56 AM
Very nice description of sonata form! I agree that after the first three symphonies, HB doesn't really write sonata form movements (with a couple of possible exceptions -- the first movement of the 18th comes to mind, though it's not strict sonata form by any means). As to whether passages in Brian are interchangeable between symphonies, I can see where one might get that impression, and maybe my perspective is skewed by having listened to them so many times, but I don't think it's true. Most of the symphonies have their own sound world, and I couldn't imagine plopping a passage from, say, the 30th into the 31st and having it not sound very much out of place. As another example, I can't imagine taking *anything* from the 15th and splicing it into any other Brian symphony. The 15th might also be a good example of a work that has an easily discerned "long form" (or at least a "long line" of musical thought), where ideas are consistently worked with and transformed over long spans of time... although the train of thought moves in anything but a straight line, and there are many deviations, backtracks, and an unexpected arrival or two. The 27th, also, with its flute protagonist and brass/percussion eruptions (possibly the most Ives-like writing anywhere in Brian, IMO), seems to be a world unto its own... and it all coheres quite well, even though formally, there doesn't seem to be so much as a trace of sonata form anywhere in the work.

In any case, thanks for the clarification and the stimulating discussion. There is always so much in Brian's work that challenges, sometimes even perplexes... which is what, to me anyway, makes him such a fascinating composer.

Thanks for the excellent response.  I will investigate those works!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 20, 2020, 09:18:44 PM
I cannot recommend Malcolm MacDonald's three-volume study of Brian's symphonies enough. They basically answer all the questions you may have about his kind of symphonism. MM has been so thorough and illuminating, it's almost impossible to really add to his insights, let alone refute them. I sometimes disagree with his assesment of certain symphonies (13, 14 spring to mind). But that's the size of it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 23, 2020, 07:17:50 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 20, 2020, 09:18:44 PM
I cannot recommend Malcolm MacDonald's three-volume study of Brian's symphonies enough. They basically answer all the questions you may have about his kind of symphonism. MM has been so thorough and illuminating, it's almost impossible to really add to his insights, let alone refute them. I sometimes disagree with his assesment of certain symphonies (13, 14 spring to mind). But that's the size of it.

+1 in all you say - but all the more impressive given that at the time of writing few had been commercially recorded or even professionally played so these insights are based on looking at the actual written page...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 23, 2020, 01:39:53 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 23, 2020, 07:17:50 AM
+1 in all you say - but all the more impressive given that at the time of writing few had been commercially recorded or even professionally played so these insights are based on looking at the actual written page...

Reminds me off an anecdote about the young Tovey in the 1880s: at school he had done all his lessons and was streets ahead of his fellow pupils. He was allowed to sit at the back of the class with a score of a Beethoven chamber work. After a little while Tovey leapt up and began clapping wildly. When the teacher asked what he was doing he looked sheepish and said "sorry, I thought I was at a performance"!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 23, 2020, 01:48:36 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on August 23, 2020, 07:17:50 AM
+1 in all you say - but all the more impressive given that at the time of writing few had been commercially recorded or even professionally played so these insights are based on looking at the actual written page...
Yes, the man was brilliant. I'm glad that I was able to thank him in person for his books (they changed my life).
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 23, 2020, 01:39:53 PM
Reminds me off an anecdote about the young Tovey in the 1880s: at school he had done all his lessons and was streets ahead of his fellow pupils. He was allowed to sit at the back of the class with a score of a Beethoven chamber work. After a little while Tovey leapt up and began clapping wildly. When the teacher asked what he was doing he looked sheepish and said "sorry, I thought I was at a performance"!
Nice one!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 05, 2020, 06:30:01 PM
Any recording of the third symphony with good recording sound (and good performance)?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on December 06, 2020, 06:01:50 AM
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 05, 2020, 06:30:01 PM
Any recording of the third symphony with good recording sound (and good performance)?

I think this is what you're looking for.
(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571150291.png)
https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDH55029 (https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDH55029)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 06, 2020, 10:11:15 AM
On YouTube, when you search under Havergal Brian, Symphony No. 3 Pope', you can find the first performance from the early 70s.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 07, 2020, 07:25:23 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 06, 2020, 10:11:15 AM
On YouTube, when you search under Havergal Brian, Symphony No. 3 Pope', you can find the first performance from the early 70s.

I will do so. Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 07, 2020, 07:26:03 AM
Quote from: relm1 on December 06, 2020, 06:01:50 AM
I think this is what you're looking for.
(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571150291.png)
https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDH55029 (https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDH55029)

Cool art!  I will place an order on Amazon!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on December 11, 2020, 09:04:32 AM
Quote from: relm1 on December 06, 2020, 06:01:50 AM
I think this is what you're looking for.
(https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/jpegs/150dpi/034571150291.png)
https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDH55029 (https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDH55029)

That looks like a reissue... a very fine performance IMO. Some prefer the Pope reading, available (at least it was, a year or two ago) from Klassic Haus. I feel they both have their strengths, and are both worth a careful listen.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 11, 2020, 09:17:36 AM
Quote from: krummholz on December 11, 2020, 09:04:32 AM
That looks like a reissue... a very fine performance IMO. Some prefer the Pope reading, available (at least it was, a year or two ago) from Klassic Haus. I feel they both have their strengths, and are both worth a careful listen.
Helios were budget price reissues.
Here's the original (full-price) release.
Spot the difference!
(//)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 11, 2020, 04:23:40 PM
Thank you gentlemen. I am travelling South America now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 12, 2020, 05:30:55 AM
Yes, the Pope recording sounds great while the recording quality is good/fair.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 14, 2020, 01:10:47 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 11, 2020, 09:17:36 AM
Helios were budget price reissues.
Here's the original (full-price) release.
Spot the difference!
(//)

The star appears to be used as a dot of letter "i". Is this purposeful?
Did Helios add the dot with the matching color later?

Post ed. I am wrong. Perhaps Helios renewed the entire title and names.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 14, 2020, 02:52:53 PM
May be deliberate, isn't there something about the word 'Altarus' being written on the score of the Third, which people have interpreted as a form of 'Altair' (alpha aquilae), and from which Altarus Reocrds took its name?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 14, 2020, 02:58:13 PM
That would be a very abstruse in-joke, if that i-turned-star would refer to Altarus. But I like your ingenuity!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on December 14, 2020, 06:26:08 PM
Quote from: krummholz on December 11, 2020, 09:04:32 AM
That looks like a reissue... a very fine performance IMO. Some prefer the Pope reading, available (at least it was, a year or two ago) from Klassic Haus. I feel they both have their strengths, and are both worth a careful listen.

Thank you for your recommendation for both the two recordings. What do you mean by ""careful"" listen? Why are you saying it? Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 16, 2020, 01:12:20 PM
Exciting new release!
(//)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2020, 01:25:29 PM
Yes, I already ordered it through the HBS. Got an email about it late this afternoon. Nice!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 16, 2020, 01:27:18 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2020, 01:25:29 PM
Yes, I already ordered it through the HBS. Got an email about it late this afternoon. Nice!

Me too Johan.
:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 16, 2020, 01:28:51 PM
Excellent, Jeffrey!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 17, 2020, 01:26:23 AM
Members of the HBS may know the answer: is there any news on the release of Faust conducted by Martyn Brabbins?

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 17, 2020, 01:30:14 AM
Alas, no. We'll just have to be patient, I guess. Another nice thing on the horizon, though, is a DVD of the Brisbane 'Gothic' of 2010...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 17, 2020, 04:04:02 AM
Thanks. I'm sure that when it eventually appears this recording of Faust with the forces of ENO will be a spectacular vindication of Brian's operatic mastery... ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 17, 2020, 04:17:59 AM
In preparation for that event, you can always study the piano reduction:

https://ump.co.uk/catalogue/havergal-brian-faust/ (https://ump.co.uk/catalogue/havergal-brian-faust/)
Several symphonies can now be studied in score online. Check the HBS site.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on December 17, 2020, 03:14:13 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 16, 2020, 01:12:20 PM
Exciting new release!
(//)

Of course, I must own this but I wish Groves had recorded Part 2 as well.  :(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 17, 2020, 11:08:41 PM
Quote from: relm1 on December 17, 2020, 03:14:13 PM
Of course, I must own this but I wish Groves had recorded Part 2 as well.  :(
Yes, I agree but I prefer the orchestral sections (apart from the ethereal last chord of the finale).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on December 28, 2020, 02:03:42 PM
Hi everyone,

Here's a late Christmas present!

I can't tell you how delighted I was to find this today - the documentary "The Grateful and the Dead", about the rock band The Grateful Dead and their Rex Foundation, which subsidised the performance of neglected classical music. I saw this on TV back in 1992 and kept hoping somebody would upload it - and they have!

This documentary is now on YouTube and contains rarely-seen footage of HB and the rehearsals for the Bratislava performance of The Gothic. And several other neglected and worthy composers besides. Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/x1ZKCVaPw7c
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Klaatu on December 28, 2020, 02:16:03 PM
PS The HB section starts around 24 minutes in ..... immediately followed by Bob Simpson! What's not to like?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 28, 2020, 02:18:37 PM
Nice! I remember watching that, too. Many thanks for this great find!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on February 11, 2021, 10:24:49 AM
Enthusiastic review of new Heritage release of Charles Groves conducting Part 1 of the Gothic Symphony. I didn't know or have forgotten that Brian sanction performances of the orchestral movements without the choral finale:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/Feb/Brian-sy1-HTGCD172.htm
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 11, 2021, 10:39:42 AM
Will read. If they are enthusiastic, so am I. 'In Memoriam' gets its best performance and Part 1 of The Gothic, although a bit rough around the edges, is very exciting. That climax in the Vivace, with the three giant chords, is taken very slowly, and it works very well.
Update: good review! Totally agree.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on February 13, 2021, 04:58:15 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 11, 2021, 10:39:42 AM
Will read. If they are enthusiastic, so am I. 'In Memoriam' gets its best performance and Part 1 of The Gothic, although a bit rough around the edges, is very exciting. That climax in the Vivace, with the three giant chords, is taken very slowly, and it works very well.
Update: good review! Totally agree.

Completely agree.  Very good and exciting performance I very much enjoyed.  Wish we had his part 2 though.  i like his pacing better than Boults maybe even my favorite.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on February 21, 2021, 09:44:16 AM
I'm into session 4 (of 8) of a Havergal Brian symphony run. First time I'll have listened to all 32 in numerical order.

Planned (or already completed) schedule:

Session 1: No. 1 (yesterday)
Session 2: Nos. 2-3 (yesterday)
Session 3: Nos. 4-6 (earlier today)
Session 4: Nos. 7-9 (currently playing No. 7 as I write)
Session 5: Nos. 10-15
Session 6: Nos. 16-20
Session 7: Nos. 21-26
Session 8: Nos. 27-32
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 21, 2021, 10:22:28 AM
That sounds wonderful. You will notice that every symphony has its own character.  While I do have my favorites, I am very glad we have 32 of them! Happy listening!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 25, 2021, 01:13:09 PM
The thing everyone knows about Brian is that he wrote one of the longest symphonies ever. I like to remind people that he also wrote some short symphonies, including one of the shortest ever written, #22.
I had thought that this symphony was the shortest symphony written in Britain, however today I came across the late C18 symphonies of John Marsh. One of these, #3 on the Olympia disc, lasts 9:14, easily beating the very lengthy HB #22 (9:22 in the Walker version).  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on March 25, 2021, 03:50:30 PM
Quote from: Klaatu on December 28, 2020, 02:03:42 PM
Hi everyone,

Here's a late Christmas present!

I can't tell you how delighted I was to find this today - the documentary "The Grateful and the Dead", about the rock band The Grateful Dead and their Rex Foundation, which subsidised the performance of neglected classical music. I saw this on TV back in 1992 and kept hoping somebody would upload it - and they have!

This documentary is now on YouTube and contains rarely-seen footage of HB and the rehearsals for the Bratislava performance of The Gothic. And several other neglected and worthy composers besides. Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/x1ZKCVaPw7c

Eh eh, I've recorded there with that orchestra!  More relevant to the topic, I recorded lots of rehearsal videos of Brisbane Gothic which was the first concert performance in 30 years.  I might upload if people care but I recall the video wasn't in great quality as I had a mediocre camera in 2010. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2021, 04:45:03 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 25, 2021, 01:13:09 PM
The thing everyone knows about Brian is that he wrote one of the longest symphonies ever. I like to remind people that he also wrote some short symphonies, including one of the shortest ever written, #22.
I had thought that this symphony was the shortest symphony written in Britain, however today I came across the late C18 symphonies of John Marsh. One of these, #3 on the Olympia disc, lasts 9:14, easily beating the very lengthy HB #22 (9:22 in the Walker version).  :)
So, is the Marsh called 'Symphonia Brevisissima'?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2021, 04:49:12 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 25, 2021, 03:50:30 PM
Eh eh, I've recorded there with that orchestra!  More relevant to the topic, I recorded lots of rehearsal videos of Brisbane Gothic which was the first concert performance in 30 years.  I might upload if people care but I recall the video wasn't in great quality as I had a mediocre camera in 2010.
I care! And it's the audio that mainly matters, as far as I'm concerned. Just realized: you play the trombone, so you must have participated in those awesome pedal notes in the Vivace... !
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 25, 2021, 05:39:30 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 25, 2021, 01:13:09 PM
The thing everyone knows about Brian is that he wrote one of the longest symphonies ever. I like to remind people that he also wrote some short symphonies, including one of the shortest ever written, #22.
I had thought that this symphony was the shortest symphony written in Britain, however today I came across the late C18 symphonies of John Marsh. One of these, #3 on the Olympia disc, lasts 9:14, easily beating the very lengthy HB #22 (9:22 in the Walker version).  :)
If I were to conduct it, it will probably come in at 8:59!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 25, 2021, 08:22:37 PM
Quote from: springrite on March 25, 2021, 05:39:30 PM
If I were to conduct it, it will probably come in at 8:59!
Ah, but then you'd conduct the Marsh symphony similarly fast.  ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: springrite on March 25, 2021, 09:11:20 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 25, 2021, 08:22:37 PM
Ah, but then you'd conduct the Marsh symphony similarly fast.  ;)
But I'd play it like it's Morton Feldman...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on March 26, 2021, 01:40:15 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 25, 2021, 01:13:09 PM
The thing everyone knows about Brian is that he wrote one of the longest symphonies ever. I like to remind people that he also wrote some short symphonies, including one of the shortest ever written, #22.
I had thought that this symphony was the shortest symphony written in Britain, however today I came across the late C18 symphonies of John Marsh. One of these, #3 on the Olympia disc, lasts 9:14, easily beating the very lengthy HB #22 (9:22 in the Walker version).  :)

I'm not sure you even have to go quite so obscure; the shortest of Boyce's symphonies, in the old and splendid Pinnock recording, comes in at just over 5 minutes.  Perhaps Brian wins the prize for coefficient of musical density (a term I've just coined, meaning size of orchestral forces divided by duration).

I was wondering about Mozart's 1st symphony, written in London, but that's a veritable Gothic at over 12 minutes.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on March 26, 2021, 06:16:35 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 25, 2021, 04:49:12 PM
I care! And it's the audio that mainly matters, as far as I'm concerned. Just realized: you play the trombone, so you must have participated in those awesome pedal notes in the Vivace... !

I auditioned for it, but they had tons of low brass people already, even for the extra brass bands.  Though they didn't need me to play, they invited me to attend all the rehearsals and I stayed with/was shown around by one of the tubists.  I got to watch several rehearsals with Malcolm Macdonald.

Here is one: https://vimeo.com/529364827/48c608f6d9

I'll post more later.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on March 26, 2021, 06:27:18 AM
More Brisbane Gothic rehearsals from 2010.

https://vimeo.com/529368279/8621b6f569
https://vimeo.com/529368684/1f46eba31c
https://vimeo.com/529368780/32da9dc25b
https://vimeo.com/529369125/87b31e854e
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2021, 06:29:53 AM
Wow! Will be watching those later today! Many thanks!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on March 26, 2021, 06:34:03 AM
Another set:
https://vimeo.com/529369581/34a7fce405
https://vimeo.com/529369942/f7c01bc15d
https://vimeo.com/529370053/f8341a1e7b
https://vimeo.com/529370198/d3b9b61419
https://vimeo.com/529370382/2c3f1ca33b
https://vimeo.com/529370536/4031265879
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2021, 06:37:47 AM
See above.
;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2021, 09:43:50 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 26, 2021, 06:27:18 AM
More Brisbane Gothic rehearsals from 2010.

https://vimeo.com/529368279/8621b6f569 (https://vimeo.com/529368279/8621b6f569)
https://vimeo.com/529368684/1f46eba31c (https://vimeo.com/529368684/1f46eba31c)
https://vimeo.com/529368780/32da9dc25b (https://vimeo.com/529368780/32da9dc25b)
https://vimeo.com/529369125/87b31e854e (https://vimeo.com/529369125/87b31e854e)
Tu Rex gloriae and the ending of the Te Deum laudamus are thrilling!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on March 26, 2021, 03:30:18 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2021, 09:43:50 AM
Tu Rex gloriae and the ending of the Te Deum laudamus are thrilling!

Thanks!  yes, I am taking credit for that though I had absolutely nothing to do with it.  It was overall a very shattering experience.  I don't know if he is on here but the author, Alan Dean Foster, filmed rehearsals of the BBC Proms gothic a year or two later.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2021, 06:15:25 PM
Quote from: relm1 on March 26, 2021, 03:30:18 PM
Thanks!  yes, I am taking credit for that though I had absolutely nothing to do with it.  It was overall a very shattering experience.  I don't know if he is on here but the author, Alan Dean Foster, filmed rehearsals of the BBC Proms gothic a year or two later.
Alan Dean Foster is a member here, don't know under what name anymore, though. He joined the discussion about the Proms Gothic and left a link to his rehearsal video. He also took part in a discussion about Das Siegeslied.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on April 15, 2021, 07:04:00 AM
Managed to pick up a copy of the Proms/Hyperion recording of the Gothic today.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DavidW on April 15, 2021, 07:06:29 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 26, 2021, 06:15:25 PM
Alan Dean Foster is a member here,

Oh I didn't know that!  I was a big fan of his novels when I was younger.  He had been in the news recently because Disney was refusing to pay him royalties on his Star Wars book.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2021, 03:58:28 AM
Composer and HBS member John Pickard wrote the following on his Facebook page. This answers the questions regarding the 'Faust' recording in a very positive way:

"A very fulfilling day. First trip to London since December 2019, to work on the overdubs for the world premiere CD of Havergal Brian's opera 'Faust'. We added the organ (played by the great Iain Farrington) and I got to play the wind machine! The recording production legend that is Michael Ponder  was at the helm, with Mike Dutton and Dillon Gallagher working their usual magic with the engineering. Sleeve notes are done, parallel translation is done, so the biggest project ever undertaken by the Havergal Brian Society will be ready for release very soon. English National Opera - performing in German!"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2021, 04:02:59 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2021, 03:58:28 AM
Composer and HBS member John Pickard wrote the following on his Facebook page. This answers the questions regarding the 'Faust' recording in a very positive way:

Good news indeed!

Sarge
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on April 27, 2021, 05:31:23 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 27, 2021, 03:58:28 AM
Composer and HBS member John Pickard wrote the following on his Facebook page. This answers the questions regarding the 'Faust' recording in a very positive way:

"A very fulfilling day. First trip to London since December 2019, to work on the overdubs for the world premiere CD of Havergal Brian's opera 'Faust'. We added the organ (played by the great Iain Farrington) and I got to play the wind machine! The recording production legend that is Michael Ponder  was at the helm, with Mike Dutton and Dillon Gallagher working their usual magic with the engineering. Sleeve notes are done, parallel translation is done, so the biggest project ever undertaken by the Havergal Brian Society will be ready for release very soon. English National Opera - performing in German!"

Thanks for the update!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on June 16, 2021, 06:42:42 AM
Has this recent addition to the Toccata Classics pipeline page been noted before?
https://toccataclassics.com/pipeline/

HAVERGAL BRIAN: THE CENCI
Soloists
Millennium Sinfonia
James Kelleher

First recording
TOCC0094

With Faust coming up soon, might 2021 be the year of not one but two commercial releases of Brian operas?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 16, 2021, 01:16:09 PM
This would be the studio recording from the early 80s. It's a decent recording, but unfortunately the Cenci an opera that has rather unpleasant subject matter (spoiler alert: the villain wants to rape his daughter, said daughter, not surprisingly, has her father murdered &c).
I would have thought that the obvious Brian opera to record would have been Agamemnon (because it's short, intense and the story is well-known), then Turandot (because the libretto (in German) is by a noted dramatist, the music (as evidenced by the extracts already recorded) is interesting, and because of the comparisons with Puccini and Busoni. I wouldn't have started a modern recording campaign with Faust.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on June 16, 2021, 04:49:04 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 16, 2021, 01:16:09 PM
This would be the studio recording from the early 80s. It's a decent recording, but unfortunately the Cenci an opera that has rather unpleasant subject matter (spoiler alert: the villain wants to rape his daughter, said daughter, not surprisingly, has her father murdered &c).
I would have thought that the obvious Brian opera to record would have been Agamemnon (because it's short, intense and the story is well-known), then Turandot (because the libretto (in German) is by a noted dramatist, the music (as evidenced by the extracts already recorded) is interesting, and because of the comparisons with Puccini and Busoni. I wouldn't have started a modern recording campaign with Faust.

Subject matter is irrelevant.  Brian was Germanophile, Wagner's operas included incest and other taboos based on mythology.  Greek tragedies are full of blood lust, sons in affairs with mothers which was the template for Shakespearean tragedies.  It's classical and mythical drama.  It's throughout the bible, all over literature.  Is the music good?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 16, 2021, 06:16:06 PM
Yes the music good, but with vocal music the libretto is important too. The Cenci is by Shelley, Brian does his best with this  turgid Shakespearean pastiche, but it still isn't very good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 08, 2021, 02:37:58 PM
The recording is of the concert performance of December 1997. I was there, in London.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on July 22, 2021, 09:15:33 AM
Listening to Brabbins' "Gothic" recording and something I just noticed is the occasional use of organ underpinning the voices during the opening choral section of the fifth movement ("Judex")
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 22, 2021, 09:16:53 AM
You heard correctly... The organ did help out.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on July 22, 2021, 09:34:12 AM
I meant to post as well that I thought the opening of the third movement reminded me a bit of Bruckner, particularly the scherzo to his Fifth Symphony. That movement is one of the strangest I know of in the symphonic repertoire. Some fantastical and pretty demonic music, and not just the famous xylophone passage.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 22, 2021, 10:05:38 AM
That Brucknerian 'vibe' is certainly there. Malcolm MacDonald notices it, too, in volume 1 of his classic trilogy on Brian's symphonies. As for the Vivace as a whole, I agree. It is among the most fantastical and demonic music Brian ever wrote. That transitional passage with the xylophone always feels like a Brianic take on the famous transition in Beethoven's Fifth, from Scherzo to Finale, which RVW also mimics in his Fourth.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Catison on July 22, 2021, 07:16:41 PM
Something randomly came to me and today I typed in 'Havergal Brian' into my Apple Music search.  I was pleasantly surprised to see the new Walker recordings and the other new stuff that has come into existence since I last dove into the Brian-verse 5 years ago.  Anyways, I really liked Symphony 10 and Symphony 8.  I don't know why I picked those, but they scratched the itch that I didn't know I had.

Then I thought I come here and see if this thread was still active...it was and it was nice to peruse.  Thanks again for having a great fan base here to help me feel comfortable diving into this music again!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 22, 2021, 08:59:24 PM
Quote from: Catison on July 22, 2021, 07:16:41 PM
Something randomly came to me and today I typed in 'Havergal Brian' into my Apple Music search.  I was pleasantly surprised to see the new Walker recordings and the other new stuff that has come into existence since I last dove into the Brian-verse 5 years ago.  Anyways, I really liked Symphony 10 and Symphony 8.  I don't know why I picked those, but they scratched the itch that I didn't know I had.

Then I thought I come here and see if this thread was still active...it was and it was nice to peruse.  Thanks again for having a great fan base here to help me feel comfortable diving into this music again!
Great to hear from you. Yes, this thread is still alive, which is either a testament to the power of Brian's music or the stubbornness of a few misguided souls (as the detractors would have it)! Those Walker CDs have been mostly good. I personally still prefer Newstone and Mackerras in the Seventh and Fredman in the Sixth and Suxteenth, but it's great we now have a choice. It's quite remarkable. And Faust and The Cenci still await us.
Keep on listening! (as David Hurwitz always ends his excellent YouTube videos)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on July 22, 2021, 11:03:54 PM
Is there any news yet about the CD release of Faust?

:-\
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 22, 2021, 11:07:41 PM
Quote from: Albion on July 22, 2021, 11:03:54 PM
Is there any news yet about the CD release of Faust?

:-\
Alas, no, John. The last news we had was the John Pickard post I quoted in April.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on July 22, 2021, 11:27:49 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 22, 2021, 11:07:41 PM
Alas, no, John. The last news we had was the John Pickard post I quoted in April.

Presumably the editing has been done - now would be a good time to release, given the general current lack of enterprise shown by several companies which used to be much more imaginative - Hyperion and Chandos seem to have largely given up and turned more and more to the mainstream.

Dutton Epoch has long been one of my favourite companies for exploratory repertoire along with CPO...

:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on July 23, 2021, 05:38:38 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on July 22, 2021, 08:59:24 PM
Great to hear from you. Yes, this thread is still alive, which is either a testament to the power of Brian's music or the stubbornness of a few misguided souls (as the detractors would have it)! Those Walker CDs have been mostly good. I personally still prefer Newstone and Mackerras in the Seventh and Fredman in the Sixth and Suxteenth, but it's great we now have a choice. It's quite remarkable. And Faust and The Cenci still await us.
Keep on listening! (as David Hurwitz always ends his excellent YouTube videos)

Interesting take on the xylophone passage, Johan. The RVW transition to the Finale in Symphony 4 is well-known as a reference to the similar passage in Beethoven's #5, but I had never thought of the Brian in those terms. Shall have to listen again, soon.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Symphonic Addict on August 27, 2021, 06:31:41 PM
Enjoying this rather serviceable performance of the Symphony No. 4 Das Siegeslied. I had forgot what an epic gargantuan score this is!! Just my cup of tea. It should be better known, there are many arresting and thought-provoking moments that leave quite an impression.

https://www.youtube.com/v/7XK-d3Jeb2k
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 27, 2021, 10:06:12 PM
Yes, this live performance is more gripping than the Naxos. Das Siegeslied remains a strange work. Malcolm Macdonald's idea that it represents a crushing indictment of power never wholly convinces me, as the work seems to embody Power itself. Brian's two extremes, which we see in the Eighth in the most exemplary fashion, are the ruthless and the vulnerable. Das Siegeslied is his most ruthless work, with a central movement that has a glacial beauty (with one explosion), and I don't know if he is enjoying himself or critiquing that side of his, and of reality...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 27, 2021, 10:37:59 PM
I played this the other day and was gripped throughout. His music is invariably 'episodic' but some of those episodes are very special (especially that fanfare towards the end). I now consider this to be one of my favourite HB symphonies along with 3,6,7,8,9,10,11,16 and 22.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 28, 2021, 04:32:10 AM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on August 27, 2021, 06:31:41 PM
Enjoying this rather serviceable performance of the Symphony No. 4 Das Siegeslied. I had forgot what an epic gargantuan score this is!! Just my cup of tea. It should be better known, there are many arresting and thought-provoking moments that leave quite an impression.

https://www.youtube.com/v/7XK-d3Jeb2k

This same performance can be bought via the Klassichaus website;

http://klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-Nos--4--and--5.php

for a very reasonable $5 for a 320 kps download.  The audio quality is markedly better than on the YouTube link here - more present and richer in detail - which is something you do need in as 'big' a work as this.  Klassichaus in general has a rich archive of these BBC sourced off-air Brian recordings which I think complement the more modern studio recordings very well
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 28, 2021, 04:55:10 AM
Yes, although the Havergal Brian Society cannot and won't endorse them, those Klassic Haus editions are a real improvement. Because these recordings serve(d) a need, I decided to write the liner notes for most of them. Ten years ago, almost...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Karl Henning on August 28, 2021, 05:43:03 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 28, 2021, 04:55:10 AM
Yes, although the Havergal Brian Society cannot and won't endorse them, those Klassic Haus editions are a real improvement. Because these recordings serve(d) a need, I decided to write the liner notes for most of them. Ten years ago, almost...

Great to "see" you, friend!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 28, 2021, 05:46:00 AM
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 28, 2021, 05:43:03 AM
Great to "see" you, friend!
Likewise, Karl!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on October 12, 2021, 03:27:10 PM
Well, it's here at last!  Havergal Brian's Faust has just been advertised on the Dutton Vocalion website as available.  For those of you who are Havergal Brian Society members, their price as advertised in the latest Newsletter is a little cheaper, once postage has been included for Dutton.  I can hardly wait for my copy to arrive.  I dare to think this is perhaps the most significant Brian issue to date.

The HBS are also taking orders for a new Heritage Records disc featuring the Stanley Pope performances of Symphonies 3 and 17 from BBC master tapes, so this may well improve on the sound of the KlassikHaus transfers from off-air recordings.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Mirror Image on October 12, 2021, 03:33:23 PM
Quote from: Augustus on October 12, 2021, 03:27:10 PM
Well, it's here at last!  Havergal Brian's Faust has just been advertised on the Dutton Vocalion website as available.  For those of you who are Havergal Brian Society members, their price as advertised in the latest Newsletter is a little cheaper, once postage has been included for Dutton.  I can hardly wait for my copy to arrive.  I dare to think this is perhaps the most significant Brian issue to date.

The HBS are also taking orders for a new Heritage Records disc featuring the Stanley Pope performances of Symphonies 3 and 17 from BBC master tapes, so this may well improve on the sound of the KlassikHaus transfers from off-air recordings.

I'm not a Havergal Brian fan, but I urge everyone here (and elsewhere) to provide links for other people about anything you mention that's going to be released.

Like this:

https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=2CDLX7385 (https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=2CDLX7385)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Symphonic Addict on October 12, 2021, 07:05:59 PM
This composer thread will be on the top of this board for quite a good time, I suspect.  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 12, 2021, 11:49:21 PM
Quote from: Augustus on October 12, 2021, 03:27:10 PM
Well, it's here at last!  Havergal Brian's Faust has just been advertised on the Dutton Vocalion website as available.  For those of you who are Havergal Brian Society members, their price as advertised in the latest Newsletter is a little cheaper, once postage has been included for Dutton.  I can hardly wait for my copy to arrive.  I dare to think this is perhaps the most significant Brian issue to date.

The HBS are also taking orders for a new Heritage Records disc featuring the Stanley Pope performances of Symphonies 3 and 17 from BBC master tapes, so this may well improve on the sound of the KlassikHaus transfers from off-air recordings.
Good news! I hope that Heritage release Symphony 8 as well.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 13, 2021, 01:02:58 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 12, 2021, 11:49:21 PM
Good news! I hope that Heritage release Symphony 8 as well.


You mean the Groves recording? Not anytime soon, I think. Isn't it still available?


Just ordered my copy of Faust through the HBS. It's on its way... Very excited!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on October 13, 2021, 01:31:13 AM
I wish Dutton were more broad in what they choose to put on spotify. Gotta be everything or nothing. For instance, most of their symphony recordings are on there but No 2&14 isn't. Which is annoying cos I have the disc but I can't play it cos my computer won't accept SACD
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on October 13, 2021, 06:12:44 AM
Does anyone know if its available in download format?  My cd player is down so I have no options on hearing this and have been waiting for it for years! 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 13, 2021, 08:51:14 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 13, 2021, 01:02:58 AM

You mean the Groves recording? Not anytime soon, I think. Isn't it still available?


Just ordered my copy of Faust through the HBS. It's on its way... Very excited!
No Johan - Myer Fredman:
(//)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 13, 2021, 09:48:31 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 13, 2021, 08:51:14 AM
No Johan - Myer Fredman:



Of course!


I just listened to it again. It has been a while. It moved me more than ever before. What a struggle between light and dark! Fredman accentuates the drama of the piece much more than Groves. It makes for a very gripping experience. I heard this symphony for the first time in 1977. Now it's 2021, and it's just as powerful. One of Brian's best.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 13, 2021, 10:37:27 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 13, 2021, 09:48:31 AM

Of course!


I just listened to it again. It has been a while. It moved me more than ever before. What a struggle between light and dark! Fredman accentuates the drama of the piece much more than Groves. It makes for a very gripping experience. I heard this symphony for the first time in 1977. Now it's 2021, and it's just as powerful. One of Brian's best.
I agree - it's arguably my favourite - along with the 'Gothic' of course!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on October 14, 2021, 03:41:40 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 13, 2021, 10:37:27 PM
I agree - it's arguably my favourite - along with the 'Gothic' of course!

Gosh, aside from the Gothic, for me there's the 3rd, the 7th, the 8th, the 11th, not to mention nos. 16, 21, 22, 23, 27, and 30! So many favorites, I really can't pick just one!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 14, 2021, 05:42:54 AM
Quote from: krummholz on October 14, 2021, 03:41:40 AM
Gosh, aside from the Gothic, for me there's the 3rd, the 7th, the 8th, the 11th, not to mention nos. 16, 21, 22, 23, 27, and 30! So many favorites, I really can't pick just one!


Same here. The only symphony I don't much care for is no. 26.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 14, 2021, 12:01:23 PM
OK, my favourites are: 1,2,3,6,7,8,9,10,11,16,17,22.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 14, 2021, 12:26:32 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 14, 2021, 12:01:23 PM
OK, my favourites are: 1,2,3,6,7,8,9,10,11,16,17,22.
Those are all terrific, Jeffrey.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 14, 2021, 12:31:17 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 14, 2021, 12:26:32 PM
Those are all terrific, Jeffrey.
Those are the ones which mean a lot to me Johan. I have come to appreciate No2 recently.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: foxandpeng on October 14, 2021, 12:33:31 PM
I SO need to get my butt into gear, here. I've slightly less listening time at the moment, but that's no excuse. I've meant to take a proper run at Brian's symphonies for such a long time...

I did listen to #5 the other day, but the wine had gone a little vinegary for my taste...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 14, 2021, 12:38:07 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on October 14, 2021, 12:33:31 PM
I SO need to get my butt into gear, here. I've slightly less listening time at the moment, but that's no excuse. I've meant to take a proper run at Brian's symphonies for such a long time...

I did listen to #5 the other day, but the wine had gone a little vinegary for my taste...

Yes, you do Danny - no excuses accepted  ;D
Seriously I'd try (apart from the Gothic) nos 6 ('Tragic'),8 and 10. They are not too long and IMO are amongst the most powerful, memorable and cogent of the symphonies (others will have their own favourites).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: foxandpeng on October 14, 2021, 12:43:21 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on October 14, 2021, 12:38:07 PM
Yes, you do Danny - no excuses accepted  ;D
Seriously I'd try (apart from the Gothic) nos 6 ('Tragic'),8 and 10. They are not too long and IMO are amongst the most powerful, memorable and cogent of the symphonies (others will have their own favourites).

Quite right, too! 😁

I've dabbled back and forth over the years, but it's been such a long time since making any serious attempt. There are no real excuses for a Brit claiming to appreciate other Brits.

I am suitably admonished 😄
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: foxandpeng on October 15, 2021, 03:29:11 AM
I've very much enjoyed #8, #6 and #16 again this morning. I have a passing familiarity with them, but not for ages. I think I'll bleed in a symphony a day for the next few weeks until I feel I've at least got a handle on those that are most consistently feted here.

Quote from: krummholz on October 14, 2021, 03:41:40 AM
Gosh, aside from the Gothic, for me there's the 3rd, the 7th, the 8th, the 11th, not to mention nos. 16, 21, 22, 23, 27, and 30! So many favorites, I really can't pick just one!

Quote from: vandermolen on October 14, 2021, 12:01:23 PM
OK, my favourites are: 1,2,3,6,7,8,9,10,11,16,17,22.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on November 03, 2021, 11:47:31 AM
Well, I've listened to Faust fairly obsessively since the set arrived and I have to say I find it utterly convincing as a stage work.  Maestro Brabbins and his team have done a superb job in bringing it to life and the enthusiasm with which the singers deliver their roles is admirable.  In terms of premiere recordings of neglected English operas, this one has to be right up there with the most impressive.  What do others think?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 03, 2021, 11:59:32 AM
Quote from: Augustus on November 03, 2021, 11:47:31 AM
Well, I've listened to Faust fairly obsessively since the set arrived and I have to say I find it utterly convincing as a stage work.  Maestro Brabbins and his team have done a superb job in bringing it to life and the enthusiasm with which the singers deliver their roles is admirable.  In terms of premiere recordings of neglected English operas, this one has to be right up there with the most impressive.  What do others think?


The set arrived here two weeks ago, but alas! time to listen has been in short supply. Glad to see Faust has impressed you! That Prologue in Heaven I've known and loved for decades already, so it will be terrific to be able to hear the whole thing. Now for that slot...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on November 03, 2021, 12:22:37 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 03, 2021, 11:59:32 AM

The set arrived here two weeks ago, but alas! time to listen has been in short supply. Glad to see Faust has impressed you! That Prologue in Heaven I've known and loved for decades already, so it will be terrific to be able to hear the whole thing. Now for that slot...

Well, at least I hope you've been able to enjoy the quality of the physical production, if not the recorded sound.  Was there ever such a glossy booklet as Dutton have lavished on this opera?!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 03, 2021, 12:33:09 PM
Quote from: Augustus on November 03, 2021, 12:22:37 PM
Well, at least I hope you've been able to enjoy the quality of the physical production, if not the recorded sound.  Was there ever such a glossy booklet as Dutton have lavished on this opera?!


Yes, it looks great. And while I will always miss Malcolm MacDonald, John Pickard wears his mantle quite comfortably in his excellent liner notes.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 03, 2021, 05:02:23 PM
I got my set last week and have been observing the request for public silence until we hear it has been released.

However I noted the glossy CD booklet. The only other book I have wth this type of paper is a Guide to the Reef Fishes of Northern Australia, which you can take snorkelling. I guess you could take this one into the shower whilst listening to the CDs (player located outside the shower).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 03, 2021, 05:14:50 PM
I see Faust is now being advertised for release on 5 November by Presto Classical.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Wanderer on November 03, 2021, 11:14:07 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 03, 2021, 05:02:23 PM
...(player located outside the shower).

Always a bummer.

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 03, 2021, 05:14:50 PM
I see Faust is now being advertised for release on 5 November by Presto Classical.

And I assume, hopefully, by the streaming platforms too.

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 03, 2021, 11:46:01 PM
Quote from: Augustus on November 03, 2021, 12:22:37 PM
Well, at least I hope you've been able to enjoy the quality of the physical production, if not the recorded sound.  Was there ever such a glossy booklet as Dutton have lavished on this opera?!

My set has been sitting on the shelves too waiting for the right moment.  The trouble with a work like this is (for me) it has to be listened to "properly" with focus and care and in a single sitting so finding the right block of time is tricky just now.  But the booklet is glorious - it took me back to the heyday of Decca and the like when major releases were lavished with extended commentaries and detailed notes.  I am sure it is expensive and time-consuming to produce liners of this quality but I am equally sure they are appreciated.....
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Augustus on November 04, 2021, 12:17:57 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 03, 2021, 05:02:23 PM
I got my set list week and have been observing the request for public silence until we hear it has been released.

I believe the Brian Soc request for 'radio silence' was until the product had appeared as available on the Dutton website, which it has been for over two weeks now.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 14, 2021, 10:34:14 PM
I've been doing a bit of a comparison between three recordings of the Second: Mackerras (1979 radio broadcast preserved either as a Klassichaus version of a bootleg LP or in the HBS society members' streaming area (the version on the HBS website is better)), Rowe (1996 Marco Polo/Naxos) and Brabbins (2016 Dutton).

Oddly enough I have come to prefer Rowe even though I know most people don't rate this recording much.

Firstly Mackerras's version is an absolutely brilliant rendition for its time, but the radio recording source makes its sound a bit old and boxed in. This is almost as big a work as the Gothic (or at least the first three movements of the Gothic) and demands to be heard as a huge orchestra in large space (as Hyperion succeeded in presenting Brabbins' Proms Gothic). This recording is necessarily restricted and sometimes the sound is just too congested. Mackerras's Scherzo is probably the best of the three, but it doesn't quite 'go' as I'd expect it to (this isn't a matter of speed but of momentum and sprightliness).

Rowe's recording is, as I said, my favourite. It is about five minutes slower than the other two, and, as so often with Romantic and C20 music, to go slower is paradoxically often to produce a more flowing and coherent rendition. The sound is almost given enough space to resonate as it should and there are almost no passages where the music is too congested. The scherzo isn't quite as good as Mackerras's but overall this is an amazing recording, especially when you consider how alien the music would have been to the players of the Moscow Symphony Orchestra.

Now Brabbins' recording: I find this quite perplexing, the music seems too constricted in some places and in the others half the orchestra seems missing. In some of the climaxes of the finale, for example, you know that an organ and two pianos are supposed to be present but you can't hear them. Other passages seem almost incoherent. The sound just doesn't seem as good  as it could be and the textures are much clearer to my ears in the other two recordings. Despite this being the only one of these recordings that uses 16 horns in the Scherzo (the others get by with eight), this is the least lively of the three Scherzos.

I suspect we haven't had a definitive recording of this symphony, but at the moment my choice is Rowe. What problems did people have with this recording?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on November 15, 2021, 03:57:19 AM
The fact the Brabbins is on SACD not regular CD. So the Rowe is now my version, but the fact they didn't use the composer's specifications for horns in the scherzo kinda riles with me.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 15, 2021, 10:33:14 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on November 15, 2021, 03:57:19 AM
The fact the Brabbins is on SACD not regular CD. So the Rowe is now my version, but the fact they didn't use the composer's specifications for horns in the scherzo kinda riles with me.

Oh, so if you play an SACD on a regular CD player you lose quality? But I'm ripping the (SA)CD to mp3 and listening on headphones, surely that would preserve the sound (as much as flac -> mp3 normally preserves the sound). I have other SACDs  and they sound normal on a CD player and as mp3s.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 15, 2021, 10:36:47 AM
Also Brabbins S14 on the same disk sounds quite normal and the sound is similar other recordings of the middle symphonies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 15, 2021, 10:41:20 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 15, 2021, 10:33:14 AM
Oh, so if you play an SACD on a regular CD player you lose quality? But I'm ripping the (SA)CD to mp3 and listening on headphones, surely that would preserve the sound (as much as flac -> mp3 normally preserves the sound). I have other SACDs  and they sound normal on a CD player and as mp3s.
Ripping SACDs seems to be a very laborious thing... Wonder how you do it.
Back to your comparative review. I listened to Rowe again. I always liked the Finale, got the sense the performance got better and better. When I listened again today, the sound was indeed better than I remembered. The reading itself is okay. The orchestra is a bit rough, which explains my preference (just) for Mackerras. I hope they'll issue a CD with his performance, based on the master tape, as they're going to do later this month with symphonies 3 and 17 under Stanley Pope. As for the Brabbins, I should listen again...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 15, 2021, 01:10:03 PM
I've been reading about this. All the SACDs I have are hybrid, which means they have a CD layer and an SACD layer. So they just function like a CD for those without an SACD player. In ripping one I am simply ripping the CD tracks.

I assume when you say it's laborious to rip an SACD this is a pure SACD disc? in which case I imagine it would be.

ps the Faust SACD is fine as regards sound quality, just magnificent sound, I don't think you could have a better version. I haven't commented on it because, fine though it is, the whole Faust thing just isn't very interesting for me. I wish they had recording Turandot first, but I hope they will. [I guess this is the reason I've never liked choral or vocal music much, as soon as words come in and the music is tied to it it is no longer abstract I begin to lose interest. Only the very greatest words can align with music to good effect IMHO).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 15, 2021, 01:13:35 PM
Good point about 'hybrid' SACDs. Mine are all hybrids, as I don't own a SACD player. I didn't know or realize I could rip those.
As for 'Faust', I still have to find the time...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on November 15, 2021, 11:23:42 PM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 15, 2021, 01:10:03 PM
I've been reading about this. All the SACDs I have are hybrid, which means they have a CD layer and an SACD layer. So they just function like a CD for those without an SACD player. In ripping one I am simply ripping the CD tracks.

I assume when you say it's laborious to rip an SACD this is a pure SACD disc? in which case I imagine it would be.

The only "CD player" I have is my computer and the laser won't pick up the CD layer.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 16, 2021, 12:07:26 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on November 15, 2021, 11:23:42 PM
The only "CD player" I have is my computer and the laser won't pick up the CD layer.

Erm.... I think you'll find your CD drive on your computer is just that a CD drive not a SACD drive.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on November 16, 2021, 08:06:31 AM
But it's supposed to be a hybrid disc. All of my SACDs are. And they used to work. Very occasionally I can get it to read the discs but those times are becoming less and less frequent.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 16, 2021, 08:18:45 AM
Quote from: Maestro267 on November 16, 2021, 08:06:31 AM
But it's supposed to be a hybrid disc. All of my SACDs are. And they used to work. Very occasionally I can get it to read the discs but those times are becoming less and less frequent.

As its a hybrid your computer drive will be reading the CD layer not the SACD layer which needs a dedicated player to read it.  Just in the same way the same drive probably will play standard DVD's but NOT Blu-ray unless you happen (unlikely on a standard off the shelf PC) to have one that is Blu-Ray compatible.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on November 19, 2021, 09:48:34 PM
I want it to read the CD layer, and it's not.

(Apologies for diverting the thread but it's super frustrating.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 20, 2021, 11:16:27 AM
You can get a plug-in CD drive via usb for windows or Mac for about $100. Mine's about ten years old but still works fine.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on November 20, 2021, 12:20:16 PM
Have one, too. Cost even less.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 31, 2021, 01:23:04 PM
Just spotted this forthcoming release (Jan 2022). Remastered recordings:
(//)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: foxandpeng on December 31, 2021, 01:24:04 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 31, 2021, 01:23:04 PM
Just spotted this forthcoming release (Jan 2022). Remastered recordings:
(//)

Thank you. One to watch out for!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on December 31, 2021, 02:02:15 PM
Quote from: foxandpeng on December 31, 2021, 01:24:04 PM
Thank you. One to watch out for!
My pleasure! Just spotted it by accident. Happy New Year to you Danny.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: foxandpeng on December 31, 2021, 02:07:33 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on December 31, 2021, 02:02:15 PM
My pleasure! Just spotted it by accident. Happy New Year to you Danny.

And to you and yours, my friend. You've taught me much this year and I'm grateful 🥃
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on December 31, 2021, 10:39:09 PM
Happy New Year, Brianites, in Brian year 2022 (died fifty years ago)!


Looking forward to that release, too. Both performances are excellent .
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on January 01, 2022, 12:46:40 AM
The anniversary itself is not until November 28th. In normal times I'd hope for some performances in recognition but these days you just don't know. Good that there's at least one new release coming, and the magnificent Third Symphony (served very well by Lionel Friend on Hyperion) gets a second officially-released recording.

EDIT: Symphonies 3/17 recording is on Spotify now!

OTHER EDIT: Listened, and it sounds absolutely excellent!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 01, 2022, 09:35:35 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on January 01, 2022, 12:46:40 AM
The anniversary itself is not until November 28th. In normal times I'd hope for some performances in recognition but these days you just don't know. Good that there's at least one new release coming, and the magnificent Third Symphony (served very well by Lionel Friend on Hyperion) gets a second officially-released recording.

EDIT: Symphonies 3/17 recording is on Spotify now!

OTHER EDIT: Listened, and it sounds absolutely excellent!


I already ordered the CD, but listening in advance won't hurt! Thanks!


EDIT: Listening as I write. Yes, these performances have never sounded better. The first time I heard them was in the early 1980s, on cassette tapes sent to me by composer and HBS member John Pickard, who was studying composition in The Hague (with the late Louis Andriessen). A great addition to the Brian catalogue!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 02, 2022, 12:25:38 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 01, 2022, 09:35:35 PM

I already ordered the CD, but listening in advance won't hurt! Thanks!


EDIT: Listening as I write. Yes, these performances have never sounded better. The first time I heard them was in the early 1980s, on cassette tapes sent to me by composer and HBS member John Pickard, who was studying composition in The Hague (with the late Louis Andriessen). A great addition to the Brian catalogue!
Great to know! Just pre-ordered a copy myself.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on January 02, 2022, 04:19:29 AM
Is the performance of the 3rd here the same as has formerly been (maybe still is) available on Klassic Haus?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 02, 2022, 12:11:32 PM
Quote from: krummholz on January 02, 2022, 04:19:29 AM
Is the performance of the 3rd here the same as has formerly been (maybe still is) available on Klassic Haus?


Yes. But this is better, based on the mastertape.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Spotted Horses on January 02, 2022, 12:20:36 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on November 19, 2021, 09:48:34 PM
I want it to read the CD layer, and it's not.

(Apologies for diverting the thread but it's super frustrating.)

Your drive is broken or perhaps hopelessly obsolete. I have a $25 external CD drive and it has no difficulty recognizing a hybrid SACD as a CD and ripping or playing the CD program.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on January 02, 2022, 03:10:39 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 02, 2022, 12:11:32 PM

Yes. But this is better, based on the mastertape.

Super!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Symphonic Addict on January 10, 2022, 05:29:40 PM
Could friendly anyone share a file on MP3 of the CD with 2nd and 14th Symphonies? I've tried to acquire that Dutton CD, but there have been some trouble with that "trade exercise". Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 10, 2022, 09:28:00 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on January 10, 2022, 05:29:40 PM
Could friendly anyone share a file on MP3 of the CD with 2nd and 14th Symphonies? I've tried to acquire that Dutton CD, but there have been some trouble with that "trade exercise". Thanks in advance!


I haven't ripped my CD, but I know how to do it. Send an email to my surname plus @ plus gmail.com.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Symphonic Addict on January 11, 2022, 06:36:16 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 10, 2022, 09:28:00 PM

I haven't ripped my CD, but I know how to do it. Send an email to my surname plus @ plus gmail.com.

Thank you J.Z., another member kindly provided me a link. Thanks a lot for you too!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 11, 2022, 01:36:44 PM
Can't believe this thread has been dormant for over 6 months...

Anyway I've just finished listening to this version of the 30th Symphony for the second time in as many days... and I have to say I'm awed by this work as by no other Brian symphony except the Gothic. It starts with a feint of a passacaglia that quickly turns into a very taut, polyphonic development of some basically lyrical ideas derived from the ground bass and its countersubject. How Brian keeps casting new light on the material, seemingly in ever bar, is nothing short of astonishing. Eventually the flow is broken by an atmospheric passage featuring rippling harp arpeggios... and the character of the music turns more dramatic. From here on until the end the work seems to be an extremely compressed synopsis of the moods of a play, perhaps a Greek tragedy, or one by Shakespeare (and we know that Brian was working on an opera based on the Oedipus at Colonnus of Sophocles) - an opera transmuted into a symphony, as it were. Despite the constantly changing instrumentarium and shifting of mood, it all works in the greater whole, tension is never lost, and there is not a single bar in this work that I find less than riveting and compelling.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71AB+WUoDDL._AC_UY545_QL65_.jpg)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 11, 2022, 01:58:15 PM
Dormant for half a year, yes, it's a lot. Doesn't mean I haven't listened to Brian during those months. So he hasn't been off my radar...


Symphony no. 30 is a terrific piece, I agree. So compact, so varied, so powerful. And that ending is one of Brian's grandest.


Nice to see it's getting some love!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: ritter on August 12, 2022, 12:25:45 AM
Quote from: krummholz on August 11, 2022, 01:36:44 PM
Can't believe this thread has been dormant for over 6 months...

...

https://www.youtube.com/v/QOkSvLqkafU
;D

Welcome back, gentlemen!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 12, 2022, 04:00:40 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 11, 2022, 01:58:15 PM
Dormant for half a year, yes, it's a lot. Doesn't mean I haven't listened to Brian during those months. So he hasn't been off my radar...


Symphony no. 30 is a terrific piece, I agree. So compact, so varied, so powerful. And that ending is one of Brian's grandest.


Nice to see it's getting some love!

Not at all surprised that you're still listening to Brian, Johan! ;)

I was motivated to post by the challenge in the last HBS newsletter to come up with five (5), and only five, standout Brian symphonies, desert island choices as it were. The writer in the newsletter chose 3, 8, 9, 10, and 16.

My choices would be 3, 8, 16, 22, and 30 (with some vacillation between 22 and 27).

Would be interesting to hear other GMGers' choices!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 12, 2022, 04:58:51 AM
Quote from: ritter on August 12, 2022, 12:25:45 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/QOkSvLqkafU
;D

Welcome back, gentlemen!


;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 12, 2022, 05:07:39 AM
Quote from: krummholz on August 12, 2022, 04:00:40 AM
Not at all surprised that you're still listening to Brian, Johan! ;)

I was motivated to post by the challenge in the last HBS newsletter to come up with five (5), and only five, standout Brian symphonies, desert island choices as it were. The writer in the newsletter chose 3, 8, 9, 10, and 16.

My choices would be 3, 8, 16, 22, and 30 (with some vacillation between 22 and 27).

Would be interesting to hear other GMGers' choices!


Thanks for reminding me to come up with my five top Brian symphonies... An almost impossible task. Ten would be easier, perhaps... But if five is the limit: 8, 10, 16, 27, 30. (If I could choose ten, I'd add 3, 6, 17, 22 and 28.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 12, 2022, 06:38:32 AM
Mine would be 1, 4, 5, 7, 9.  Hmm, need more choices.  I really love 9's ending but might have to trade it for a later symphony.  I tend to prefer the structured symphonies more than the stream of consciousness ones but will confess my list leaves off some of my favorites.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 12, 2022, 06:44:15 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 12, 2022, 06:38:32 AM
Mine would be 1, 4, 5, 7, 9.  Hmm, need more choices.  I really love 9's ending but might have to trade it for a later symphony.  I tend to prefer the structured symphonies more than the stream of consciousness ones but will confess my list leaves off some of my favorites.


You may add one more, as The Gothic is essential to Brian's symphonic achievement, and no-one who loves Brian's music would not have it on his or her list of favourites...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 12, 2022, 06:59:44 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 12, 2022, 06:44:15 AM

You may add one more, as The Gothic is essential to Brian's symphonic achievement, and no-one who loves Brian's music would not have it on his or her list of favourites...

Yup, and the HBS challenge specifically said to exclude the Gothic as a given, and pick 5 others (thus, really a total of 6 counting #1). I should have mentioned that.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 12, 2022, 07:02:21 AM
Quote from: krummholz on August 12, 2022, 06:59:44 AM
Yup, and the HBS challenge specifically said to exclude the Gothic as a given, and pick 5 others (thus, really a total of 6 counting #1). I should have mentioned that.


I should have, too. Never mind...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 12, 2022, 07:07:06 AM
In 9, I love the slow movement above all, with its undercurrent of tragedy. I would almost have included it in my list just for that movement, but since we're limited to 5 (other than #1)...

And I'm not sure I agree that the later symphonies are "stream of consciousness" - on first hearing they give that impression, but my feeling is that they are carefully structured to SOUND stream of consciousness even though they aren't. And some movements even bear vague resemblance to traditional forms, like the first movement of #29 which is in a sort-of sonata form of the Mahlerian sort, with a central quiet episode; or the last movement of #21, which is a kind of hybrid sonata-rondo-variations form.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 12, 2022, 07:44:12 AM
Re Brian's late 'stream of consciousness' symphonies. I grew up with only 6, 8, 9, 10, 21 and 22 available commercially. All the other symphonies I only 'knew' through Malcolm MacDonald's books. I read and reread those so many times that any idea that those later symphonies were somehow less 'structured' didn't even arise. They were just more open and fluid, but just as cogent. When I finally got to know all 32, in the second half of the 1980s, MM had prepared me for anything Brian could throw at me!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on August 12, 2022, 08:15:18 AM
Mine would be 2, 3, 6, 9 and 10.

Just seen the new rule including the Gothic as a given so updated.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 13, 2022, 12:09:59 AM
Quote from: krummholz on August 12, 2022, 04:00:40 AM
Not at all surprised that you're still listening to Brian, Johan! ;)

I was motivated to post by the challenge in the last HBS newsletter to come up with five (5), and only five, standout Brian symphonies, desert island choices as it were. The writer in the newsletter chose 3, 8, 9, 10, and 16.

My choices would be 3, 8, 16, 22, and 30 (with some vacillation between 22 and 27).

Would be interesting to hear other GMGers' choices!

Let me see
The Gothic Symphony
No.3
No.8
No.10
No.22
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on August 13, 2022, 04:16:02 AM
Cool! Do you have another pick to add? (The HBS challenge said The Gothic is a given, so you get to choose five in addition to it.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 13, 2022, 05:50:52 AM
How did you first encounter Brian's music and what was that experience like?  For me, I randomly purchased a cassette of the Symphony No. 8 and 9 conducted by Sir Charles Groves.  I thought the music was a bit odd but interesting and ultimately thrilling so I kept coming back to it.  I also remember in the cassette booklet, it referenced his massive Gothic Symphony being the largest symphony.  A bit later, at a Tower Records music store (remember those?) in my university town, it had a classical annex and a very knowledgeable classical rep in that section.  Since the annex was closed off, it was always blasting newly released recordings and he played a part of part 1 from Gothic which I recalled reading about from that cassette.  I was very intrigued and purchased it.  I was also captivated by Brian's story of not coming from a composition friendly background (I forget the specifics), being incredibly productive especially way later in life, marching to the beat of his own drum, and thinking he was a reclusive type, etc.  I was hooked on the music and found it incredibly terrifying, stirring, and moving.  He was very interesting as a figure and composer. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 13, 2022, 05:53:16 AM
So not a lot of love for the 4th, I'm seeing.  I love that one but not the Marco Polo/Naxos recording but this one with Felicity Palmer and London Philharmonic Orchestra.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XK-d3Jeb2k
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 13, 2022, 06:23:32 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 13, 2022, 05:53:16 AM
So not a lot of love for the 4th, I'm seeing.  I love that one but not the Marco Polo/Naxos recording but this one with Felicity Palmer and London Philharmonic Orchestra.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XK-d3Jeb2k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XK-d3Jeb2k)


I prefer that one, too. For the record - I like Das Siegeslied, but it's a very special work I don't feel like listening to all that often. I also think we still don't have a really standout performance...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 13, 2022, 06:38:23 AM
Quote from: relm1 on August 13, 2022, 05:50:52 AM
How did you first encounter Brian's music and what was that experience like?


Long story short. Discovery at Amsterdam Central Library of several books about Brian. That was in the Autumn of 1977. I was 16 at the time, and already deep into Wagner, Bruckner and Mahler. I devoured volume 1 of Malcolm MacDonald's study of the symphonies and was immediately hooked without having heard a note, just through the descriptions. A year later: the Groves 8 &9. It felt like coming home. I had to wrestle a bit with the first movement of 9, but 8 floored me. A year later I got to know the recording of symphonies 10 and 21. I became obsessed by the Tenth. In the meantime I had also read volume 2 of MM's trilogy, and books by Reginald Nettel, Kenneth Eastaugh and Lewis Foreman (all in that Amsterdam Library, really incredible). To wrap up: the Lyrita LP with 6 & 16 came into my possession, and that solidified Brian's position as my 'dream composer' and an inspiring example for me as a budding writer. The rest is... music, through friends I made as a member of the HBS (since 1983), who sent me tape cassettes with radio performances of the symphonies. Brian is still my personal favourite, although there are others vying for that position. But Havergal wins.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 13, 2022, 08:17:05 AM
I also like:
No.2
No.7
No.9
No.11
and No.16
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 13, 2022, 04:15:26 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 13, 2022, 06:23:32 AM

I prefer that one, too. For the record - I like Das Siegeslied, but it's a very special work I don't feel like listening to all that often. I also think we still don't have a really standout performance...

Completely agree with you...again. The music is better than performance we have of it.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on August 13, 2022, 04:22:27 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 13, 2022, 06:38:23 AM

Long story short. Discovery at Amsterdam Central Library of several books about Brian. That was in the Autumn of 1977. I was 16 at the time, and already deep into Wagner, Bruckner and Mahler. I devoured volume 1 of Malcolm MacDonald's study of the symphonies and was immediately hooked without having heard a note, just through the descriptions. A year later: the Groves 8 &9. It felt like coming home. I had to wrestle a bit with the first movement of 9, but 8 floored me. A year later I got to know the recording of symphonies 10 and 21. I became obsessed by the Tenth. In the meantime I had also read volume 2 of MM's trilogy, and books by Reginald Nettel, Kenneth Eastaugh and Lewis Foreman (all in that Amsterdam Library, really incredible). To wrap up: the Lyrita LP with 6 & 16 came into my possession, and that solidified Brian's position as my 'dream composer' and an inspiring example for me as a budding writer. The rest is... music, through friends I made as a member of the HBS (since 1983), who sent me tape cassettes with radio performances of the symphonies. Brian is still my personal favourite, although there are others vying for that position. But Havergal wins.

Fantastic!  I had a very unique experience of sitting next to Malcolm MacDonald during the rehearsals of Brisbane's Gothic which was a very unique and wonderful experience.  I hadn't read his books but knew of him through the programs in the CD/cassettes which were usually written by him.  I cherish those few memories because every interaction I had with him was very memorable and I recorded his preconcert speech because I think at the time, the Brisbane was the first Gothic performance in decades, so it was a historic occasion. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 24, 2022, 01:17:03 AM
Enjoying this new release - the transfers seem very good. I bought this release when it first came out but listening to it for the first time. Both performances are from the BBC Studio in Maida Vale London; a place I know well as I lived for many years, as a child, at Maida Vale and as my uncle worked for the PRS (Performing Rights Society) he often took my brother and myself to performances at the BBC Studio there:

BBC Studios at Maida Vale:
(//)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2022, 05:37:45 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 24, 2022, 01:17:03 AM
Enjoying this new release - the transfers seem very good. I bought this release when it first came out but listening to it for the first time. Both performances are from the BBC Studio in Maida Vale London; a place I know well as I lived for many years, as a child, at Maida Vale and as my uncle worked for the PRS (Performing Rights Society) he often took my brother and myself to performances at the BBC Studio there:

BBC Studios at Maida Vale:



Both (first!) performances are still the best, in my opinion.


I was at Maida Vale in late October 1988 for a performance of Brian's Third under Lionel Friend. Afterwards we all repaired to a pub, appropriately named Truscott Arms... I also remember children asking 'a penny for the guy' near Maida Vale Tube station...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 24, 2022, 07:48:51 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2022, 05:37:45 AM

Both (first!) performances are still the best, in my opinion.


I was at Maida Vale in late October 1988 for a performance of Brian's Third under Lionel Friend. Afterwards we all repaired to a pub, appropriately named Truscott Arms... I also remember children asking 'a penny for the guy' near Maida Vale Tube station...
Great memories Johan. My first encounter with 'The Gothic' was in 1980 at the concert conducted by Old Schmidt at the RAH.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Irons on August 24, 2022, 11:35:31 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on August 24, 2022, 07:48:51 AM
Great memories Johan. My first encounter with 'The Gothic' was in 1980 at the concert conducted by Old Schmidt at the RAH.

;D
How old was he! Then I noticed how close d and e on keyboard. ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 24, 2022, 11:45:09 PM
Quote from: Irons on August 24, 2022, 11:35:31 PM
;D
How old was he! Then I noticed how close d and e on keyboard. ;D


Didn't spot that. Poor Ol' Schmidt.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on August 25, 2022, 03:13:38 AM
Quote from: Irons on August 24, 2022, 11:35:31 PM
;D
How old was he! Then I noticed how close d and e on keyboard. ;D

Haha  ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 25, 2022, 01:43:17 PM
For some reason this reminds me of a sketch in the Glums:
Doctor (heavy German accent for some reason): "Vell, if you excuse me I have to go and see how old Lady Gladstone is."
Ron: "Don't you know how old she is?"
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on August 25, 2022, 01:53:23 PM
 :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Irons on August 26, 2022, 07:35:52 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 25, 2022, 01:43:17 PM
For some reason this reminds me of a sketch in the Glums:
Doctor (heavy German accent for some reason): "Vell, if you excuse me I have to go and see how old Lady Gladstone is."
Ron: "Don't you know how old she is?"

Oh Ron, oh Eth. :D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 07, 2022, 05:41:56 PM
News from the HB Society.

Testament are soon releasing the BBC recordings of Myer Fredman conducting the Symphonies 9, 22 and 24. I'm so pleased about this as Fredman was such a good Brian conductor (such a great conductor overall) and these are great recordings. Pity he didn't record 23.

The newsletter reprints an interview with Fredman from 1997 in which he talks about HB. The gem it got from it was that HB was a dead ringer for Bruckner (though I think Bruckner was actually quite a bit taller).

In other news the DVD of the Brisbane Gothic available. As I am in Australia already I'll be getting it directly from https://www.4mbs.com.au/products/ (https://www.4mbs.com.au/products/), though you can also get it from the Society. I had heard it was available as a USB and I am enquiring from 4MBS whether this is the case.


Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 07, 2022, 08:01:19 PM
All correct, save one thing: that Myer Fredman  disc will also contain the Eighth Symphony... Looking forward to hearing all four symphonies in pristine sound!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 07, 2022, 09:47:09 PM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 07, 2022, 08:01:19 PM
All correct, save one thing: that Myer Fredman  disc will also contain the Eighth Symphony... Looking forward to hearing all four symphonies in pristine sound!
$:)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on October 08, 2022, 12:15:27 AM
Quote from: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 07, 2022, 08:01:19 PM
All correct, save one thing: that Myer Fredman  disc will also contain the Eighth Symphony... Looking forward to hearing all four symphonies in pristine sound!
Great news! No.8 is a marvellous work. I think very highly of Fredman's Bax recordings as well.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on October 08, 2022, 06:49:33 AM
+1.

The newsletter also contains a long discussion of Brian's Faust, another Brian work I've never heard but that sounds fascinating. (Yes, I know it's been released on CD... I'm very much behind in getting out my CD orders.)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on November 28, 2022, 04:29:12 AM
Today (November 28) marks 50 years since Havergal Brian's death.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 10, 2022, 03:10:25 PM
Quote from: krummholz on October 08, 2022, 06:49:33 AM+1.

The newsletter also contains a long discussion of Brian's Faust, another Brian work I've never heard but that sounds fascinating. (Yes, I know it's been released on CD... I'm very much behind in getting out my CD orders.)

The Dutton recording of "Faust" is quite glorious with the (currently threatened) forces of ENO under Brabbins, and vindicates Brian's determination to persevere with opera. I've been working on cleaning up an off-air BBC broadcast of "Agamemnon" (1957)...

https://www.mediafire.com/file/32jwzsmnswmsx75/Brian_-_Agamemnon_%25281957%2529.mp3/file
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Papy Oli on January 10, 2023, 11:01:50 PM
As mentioned further up, release on the 24th Jan:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQyNjE5MC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NzI5MzI2MjZ9)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 12, 2023, 03:42:29 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on January 10, 2023, 11:01:50 PMAs mentioned further up, release on the 24th Jan:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQyNjE5MC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NzI5MzI2MjZ9)
V exciting!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 12, 2023, 06:43:22 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on January 10, 2023, 11:01:50 PMAs mentioned further up, release on the 24th Jan:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQyNjE5MC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NzI5MzI2MjZ9)

What a fantastic prospect! Fredman really "got" Brian in a way that has eluded many other conductors (e.g. the truly dismal Naxos No.2 with Tony Rowe) and his Lyrita 6th and 16th are real treasures. Now that all of the symphonies are available in good to excellent recordings it's wonderful to see these alternative broadcast performances appearing commercially and adding to the discography. Heritage are a great label...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 12, 2023, 06:47:43 AM
Quote from: Albion on January 12, 2023, 06:43:22 AMWhat a fantastic prospect! Fredman really "got" Brian in a way that has eluded many other conductors (e.g. the truly dismal Naxos No.2 with Tony Rowe) and his Lyrita 6th and 16th are real treasures. Now that all of the symphonies are available in good to excellent recordings it's wonderful to see these alternative broadcast performances appearing commercially and adding to the discography. Heritage are a great label...
I love Fredman's Bax recordings on Lyrita. I rather liked that Tony Rowe HB CD but I had nothing to compare it with.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 12, 2023, 07:25:49 AM
Quote from: Albion on January 12, 2023, 06:43:22 AMWhat a fantastic prospect! Fredman really "got" Brian in a way that has eluded many other conductors (e.g. the truly dismal Naxos No.2 with Tony Rowe) and his Lyrita 6th and 16th are real treasures. Now that all of the symphonies are available in good to excellent recordings it's wonderful to see these alternative broadcast performances appearing commercially and adding to the discography. Heritage are a great label...

These are the same performances that have been available on Klassichaus for some years.  No idea how the transfers compare.

http://klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphonies-Nos--18-19-22.php

I've always been happy with these transfers as alternative versions in my collection.....

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Papy Oli on January 12, 2023, 07:56:57 AM
Quote from: Albion on January 12, 2023, 06:43:22 AMWhat a fantastic prospect! Fredman really "got" Brian in a way that has eluded many other conductors (e.g. the truly dismal Naxos No.2 with Tony Rowe) and his Lyrita 6th and 16th are real treasures. Now that all of the symphonies are available in good to excellent recordings it's wonderful to see these alternative broadcast performances appearing commercially and adding to the discography. Heritage are a great label...

I posted this new release without realising it was the same conductor as the 6th & 16th, the only Brian CD I own and that I enjoyed (I tried a few of the Naxos releases but I never got much out of them). Thank you for mentioning it. Guess I'll have to check this new release too.

Are there any other Brian symphonies that Fredman has conducted?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 12, 2023, 08:26:19 AM
Quote from: Papy Oli on January 12, 2023, 07:56:57 AMI posted this new release without realising it was the same conductor as the 6th & 16th, the only Brian CD I own and that I enjoyed (I tried a few of the Naxos releases but I never got much out of them). Thank you for mentioning it. Guess I'll have to check this new release too.

Are there any other Brian symphonies that Fredman has conducted?

He conducted 29 and 32 for broadcast on 12th March 1979...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 12, 2023, 08:33:23 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 12, 2023, 06:47:43 AMI love Fredman's Bax recordings on Lyrita. I rather liked that Tony Rowe HB CD but I had nothing to compare it with.

Nope, either Mackerras (BBC) or Brabbins (Dutton) are infinitely better. No.2 was the low point of the Marco Polo series and destined for the charity shop...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Papy Oli on January 12, 2023, 09:12:45 AM
Quote from: Albion on January 12, 2023, 08:26:19 AMHe conducted 29 and 32 for broadcast on 12th March 1979...

Thank you Albion.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on January 12, 2023, 09:28:34 AM
We need a good No. 4 with a less warbly soprano.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 12, 2023, 01:02:51 PM
Quote from: Maestro267 on January 12, 2023, 09:28:34 AMWe need a good No. 4 with a less warbly soprano.

Forget the Marco Polo/ Naxos No.4. Despite the more limited sonics you're far better off with John Poole in 1974 (broadcast 25/6/1975) with Felicity Palmer, lots of choruses and the LPO...

https://www.mediafire.com/file/3ct5hialrj8kire/Brian_-_Symphony_No.4%252C_Das_Siegeslied_%25281932-33%2529_-_Poole.mp3/file

 ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 12, 2023, 01:55:12 PM
Quote from: Albion on January 12, 2023, 01:02:51 PMForget the Marco Polo/ Naxos No.4. Despite the more limited sonics you're far better off with John Poole in 1974 (broadcast 25/6/1975) with Felicity Palmer, lots of choruses and the LPO...

https://www.mediafire.com/file/3ct5hialrj8kire/Brian_-_Symphony_No.4%252C_Das_Siegeslied_%25281932-33%2529_-_Poole.mp3/file

 ;)


Again a Klassichaus release - http://klassichaus.us/Brian%3A-Symphony-Nos--4--and--5.php
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on January 13, 2023, 09:24:13 AM
Man that feels like that would be *perfect* for Lyrita!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2023, 11:23:15 AM
I've been greatly enjoying this CD and I can't understand why, up until now, it passed me by - maybe because I already owned alternative recordings of all three work. However, I think it makes a very nice programme featuring two of my favourite HB symphonies. Even if the alternative performances (Makerras/Fredman) are better the Naxos is an excellent recording and it's good to hear alternative performances of these works. Any other views on this CD?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 24, 2023, 07:16:23 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2023, 11:23:15 AMI've been greatly enjoying this CD and I can't understand why, up until now, it passed me by - maybe because I already owned alternative recordings of all three work. However, I think it makes a very nice programme featuring two of my favourite HB symphonies. Even if the alternative performances (Makerras/Fredman) are better the Naxos is an excellent recording and it's good to hear alternative performances of these works. Any other views on this CD?


It's great! Alexander Walker has the measure of Brian and his Naxos discs have all been uniformly excellent. I agree that the Mackerras No.7 and the Fredman No.16 are "reference" recordings, but you simply can't go wrong with this CD. Hasten and purchase (if you haven't already). The more alternative interpretations we have, the better. It's wonderful that Naxos were clearly not content just to "complete the cycle" but are interested enough in Brian to offer new versions of previously recorded works...

 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Symphonic Addict on January 24, 2023, 08:04:19 PM
A few days ago I finished my traversal throughout his 32 symphonies, which provided me of a better understanding of this composer. However, on the basis of what I heard being a listener without expert musical knowledge, I drew some conclusions or ideas:

1. He's got a distinctive voice.

2. When he was inspired, he really made good things, although that inspiration was intermitent.

3. Some symphonies sound like they were written with no real purpose, I didn't feel anything special on them and many sound strikingly similar each other. If there were more hummable tunes or memorable melodies on them, they would have much more appeal.

4. The use of cymbals and glockenspiel (mostly) is not special most of the times, but rather somewhat exaggerated, and I could include the percussion section in general; I often thought he wanted to create much noise but without addying anything particularly exceptional to the musical organism. His writing for strings and brass sounds more convincing to me.

5. I consider he is an overrated composer.


Said that, I classified them as below:


Very good

1, 7, 8, 16


Significantly interesting

2, 3, 11, 20, 21, 28, 29


Mildly attractive

4, 6, 9, 13, 25


Disappointing or that did nothing for me

5, 10, 12, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 22, 23, 24, 26, 27, 30, 31 and 32


It's not my goal to hurt feelings as I am aware he's very respected and admired for many here, I'm just giving my personal impressions.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2023, 09:55:16 PM
Quote from: Albion on January 24, 2023, 07:16:23 PMIt's great! Alexander Walker has the measure of Brian and his Naxos discs have all been uniformly excellent. I agree that the Mackerras No.7 and the Fredman No.16 are "reference" recordings, but you simply can't go wrong with this CD. Hasten and purchase (if you haven't already). The more alternative interpretations we have, the better. It's wonderful that Naxos were clearly not content just to "complete the cycle" but are interested enough in Brian to offer new versions of previously recorded works...

 ;D
A good point, thanks. I listened to the CD again last night with much pleasure.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 24, 2023, 10:03:28 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on January 24, 2023, 08:04:19 PMA few days ago I finished my traversal throughout his 32 symphonies, which provided me of a better understanding of this composer. However, on the basis of what I heard being a listener without expert musical knowledge, I drew some conclusions or ideas:

1. He's got a distinctive voice.

2. When he was inspired, he really made good things, although that inspiration was intermitent.

3. Some symphonies sound like they were written with no real purpose, I didn't feel anything special on them and many sound strikingly similar each other. If there were more hummable tunes or memorable melodies on them, they would have much more appeal.

4. The use of cymbals and glockenspiel (mostly) is not special most of the times, but rather somewhat exaggerated, and I could include the percussion section in general; I often thought he wanted to create much noise but without addying anything particularly exceptional to the musical organism. His writing for strings and brass sounds more convincing to me.

5. I consider he is an overrated composer.


Said that, I classified them as below:


Very good

1, 7, 8, 16


Significantly interesting

2, 3, 11, 20, 21, 28, 29


Mildly attractive

4, 6, 9, 13, 25


Disappointing or that did nothing for me

5, 10, 12, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 22, 23, 24, 26, 27, 30, 31 and 32


It's not my goal to hurt feelings as I am aware he's very respected and admired for many here, I'm just giving my personal impressions.
Interesting to hear your view Cesar. We disagree on 10 (one of my favourites) and 22 (and 3) but otherwise my list of favourites is similar (I,3,6,7,8,9,10,16,22). Although there aren't many 'hummable tunes' I do feel that some of the themes do stay with me (the brief but moving 'funeral march' in No.16 for example).
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 24, 2023, 11:45:53 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2023, 09:55:16 PMA good point, thanks. I listened to the CD again last night with much pleasure.

Brian is endlessly fascinating. Either you get him or you don't, it's that simple. I've stacked up a pile of CDs to plough through including all the symphonies, orchestral works, choral works, concertos and the operas, wonderful stuff. Here is my edited version of the BBC "Agamemnon"...

https://www.mediafire.com/file/32jwzsmnswmsx75/Brian_-_Agamemnon_%25281957%2529.mp3/file

 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 25, 2023, 04:10:34 AM
I'm sure that I'm getting increasingly senile. I was just about to order 8, 21 and 26 (Naxos) and 3, 17 (Heritage) from Amazon, then went to the shelf and there they were already lurking. The Stanley Pope No.3 is the one to have, as it's just bloody gorgeous: chuck the Hyperion (dry as a corpse recording) out of the window or use it as a coaster. Alexander Walker's No.8 is a scorcher and better played than the Groves RLPO.

Prolific throughout an enormously long composing career, he is best known for the 32 numbered symphonies. Luckily we can now assemble good recordings of all of them, and there are some real crackers. Several of the BBC broadcasts have also been commercially released. For what it's worth, here are my top recommendations...

No.1, The Gothic - Brabbins, Hyperion CDA67971/2
No.2 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7330
No.3 - Pope, Heritage HTGCD153
No.4, Das Siegeslied - Leaper, Naxos 8.570308
No.5, Wine of Summer - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7314
No.6, Sinfonia Tragica - Fredman, Lyrita SRCD295
No.7 - Mackerras, EMI 724357578226
No.8 - Walker, Naxos 8.573752
No.9 - Groves, EMI 724357578226
No.10 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7267
No.11 - Leaper, Naxos 8.572014
No.12 - Leaper, Naxos 8.570308
No.13 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7296
No.14 - Brabbins CDLX7330
No.15 - Rowe, Naxos 8.572014
No.16 - Fredman, Lyrita SRCD295
No.17 - Pope, Heritage HTGCD153
No.18 - Friend, Naxos 8.557775
No.19 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7314
No.20 - Penny, Naxos 8.572641
No.21 - Walker, Naxos 8.573752
No.22, Symphonia brevis - Walker, Naxos 8.572833
No.23 - Walker, Naxos 8.572833
No.24 - Walker, Naxos 8.572833
No.25 - Penny, Naxos 8.572641
No.26 - Walker, Naxos 8.573752
No.27 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7314
No.28 - Walker, Naxos 8.573408
No.29 - Walker, Naxos 8.573408
No.30 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7267
No.31 - Walker, Naxos 8.573408
No.32 - Leaper, Naxos 8.572020

 :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 25, 2023, 05:07:38 AM
Quote from: Albion on January 25, 2023, 04:10:34 AMI'm sure that I'm getting increasingly senile. I was just about to order 8, 21 and 26 (Naxos) and 3, 17 (Heritage) from Amazon, then went to the shelf and there they were already lurking. The Stanley Pope No.3 is the one to have, as it's just bloody gorgeous: chuck the Hyperion (dry as a corpse recording) out of the window or use it as a coaster. Alexander Walker's No.8 is a scorcher and better played than the Groves RLPO.

Prolific throughout an enormously long composing career, he is best known for the 32 numbered symphonies. Luckily we can now assemble good recordings of all of them, and there are some real crackers. Several of the BBC broadcasts have also been commercially released. For what it's worth, here are my top recommendations...

No.1, The Gothic - Brabbins, Hyperion CDA67971/2
No.2 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7330
No.3 - Pope, Heritage HTGCD153
No.4, Das Siegeslied - Leaper, Naxos 8.570308
No.5, Wine of Summer - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7314
No.6, Sinfonia Tragica - Fredman, Lyrita SRCD295
No.7 - Mackerras, EMI 724357578226
No.8 - Walker, Naxos 8.573752
No.9 - Groves, EMI 724357578226
No.10 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7267
No.11 - Leaper, Naxos 8.572014
No.12 - Leaper, Naxos 8.570308
No.13 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7296
No.14 - Brabbins CDLX7330
No.15 - Rowe, Naxos 8.572014
No.16 - Fredman, Lyrita SRCD295
No.17 - Pope, Heritage HTGCD153
No.18 - Friend, Naxos 8.557775
No.19 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7314
No.20 - Penny, Naxos 8.572641
No.21 - Walker, Naxos 8.573752
No.22 - Walker, Naxos 8.572833
No.23, Symphonia brevis - Walker, Naxos 8.572833
No.24 - Walker, Naxos 8.572833
No.25 - Penny, Naxos 8.572641
No.26 - Walker, Naxos 8.573752
No.27 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7314
No.28 - Walker, Naxos 8.573408
No.29 - Walker, Naxos 8.573408
No.30 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7267
No.31 - Walker, Naxos 8.573408
No.32 - Leaper, Naxos 8.572020

 :)
Most interesting, although I do rate the Groves No.8 very highly. I think that 22 not 23 is 'Brevis'.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 25, 2023, 05:58:16 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 25, 2023, 05:07:38 AMMost interesting, although I do rate the Groves No.8 very highly. I think that 22 not 23 is 'Brevis'.

Indeed, duly corrected. I will endeavour to be more brevis...

 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 25, 2023, 06:19:29 AM
Why isn't No.3 a repertoire piece when it's just so bloody gorgeous? Alright, you need a couple of pianists who can get their fingers flexing and a tremendous brass/ woodwind ensemble in the third movement (with its Straussian waltz interlude) but it's one of Brian's most colourful and approachable scores which would go down a storm when well played in concert...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 25, 2023, 06:53:34 AM
Onto No.17 now under Stanley Pope. There is such wondrously BEAUTIFUL melodic writing and orchestration here that I am flabbergasted that nobody (in concert terms) seems to care a tinker's tuppence about Brian. This is as much of a scandal as is the neglect of Bantock, Holbrooke, Boughton, Scott, Bax, Dyson and Bliss (et al)...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 25, 2023, 11:18:05 AM
Quote from: Albion on January 25, 2023, 05:58:16 AMIndeed, duly corrected. I will endeavour to be more brevis...

 ;D
;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Symphonic Addict on January 25, 2023, 02:41:18 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 24, 2023, 10:03:28 PMInteresting to hear your view Cesar. We disagree on 10 (one of my favourites) and 22 (and 3) but otherwise my list of favourites is similar (I,3,6,7,8,9,10,16,22). Although there aren't many 'hummable tunes' I do feel that some of the themes do stay with me (the brief but moving 'funeral march' in No.16 for example).

I remember enjoying the No. 10 the first times I listened to it, but on my revisitation I found it incongruous and rambling.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Symphonic Addict on January 25, 2023, 02:44:06 PM
Quote from: Albion on January 25, 2023, 06:53:34 AMThis is as much of a scandal as is the neglect of Bantock, Holbrooke, Boughton, Scott, Bax, Dyson and Bliss (et al)...

Bantock, Bax, Bliss and some Dyson, yes, I agree. As to the others I feel less enthusiastic about.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 25, 2023, 04:38:07 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on January 25, 2023, 02:44:06 PMBantock, Bax, Bliss and some Dyson, yes, I agree. As to the others I feel less enthusiastic about.

Which of Dyson's works would you particularly promote?

 8)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 25, 2023, 10:48:48 PM
Quote from: Albion on January 25, 2023, 04:38:07 PMWhich of Dyson's works would you particularly promote?

 8)
Not addressed to me but I'd strongly recommend the Symphony, Hierusalem, Quo Vadis (it has some longueurs but the most moving final section) and Concerto da Chiesa. No doubt Cesar will give you his own recommendations.
This is a good starting place:
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 26, 2023, 12:02:14 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 25, 2023, 10:48:48 PMNot addressed to me but I'd strongly recommend the Symphony, Hierusalem, Quo Vadis (it has some longueurs but the most moving final section) and Concerto da Chiesa. No doubt Cesar will give you his own recommendations.
This is a good starting place:


"Night hath no wings" from Quo Vadis is sublime.

Primarily a choral composer, his works attained considerable success during his lifetime but have been neglected in performance since his death. Nevertheless, all the main works have now been recorded and you can build yourself a tidy library with the following essential discs:

In Honour of the City (1928)/ The Canterbury Pilgrims (1930) - Hickox (Chandos)
St Paul's Voyage to Melita (1933) - Hill (Naxos)
The Blacksmiths (1934) - Willcocks (Somm)
Nebuchadnezzar (1935) - Hickox (Chandos)
Quo Vadis (1939-48) - Hickox (Chandos)

I don't much care for the early Choral Symphony recorded by Naxos, but the accompanying rendition of St Paul's Voyage to Melita is absolutely superb: Dyson's depiction of the storm at sea is quite individual and the choral writing is incredibly difficult (as it is in The Blacksmiths). We are lucky to have all these works on disc for repeated listening.

Then pop in the symphony and concertos.

As with Cyril Scott, Dyson has been the subject of a relatively recent major study. If you have space on your shelves, Paul Spicer's "Sir George Dyson: his life and music" (The Boydell Press, 2014) is a model of scholarship and readability.

I think that Dyson developed a very recognisable and distinctive harmonic style quite early on, and his choral writing and orchestration is that of a consummate expert. What's not to like?

 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 26, 2023, 12:13:46 AM
Quote from: Albion on January 26, 2023, 12:02:14 AM"Night hath no wings" from Quo Vadis is sublime.

Primarily a choral composer, his works attained considerable success during his lifetime but have been neglected in performance since his death. Nevertheless, all the main works have now been recorded and you can build yourself a tidy library with the following essential discs:

In Honour of the City (1928)/ The Canterbury Pilgrims (1930) - Hickox (Chandos)
St Paul's Voyage to Melita (1933) - Hill (Naxos)
The Blacksmiths (1934) - Willcocks (Somm)
Nebuchadnezzar (1935) - Hickox (Chandos)
Quo Vadis (1939-48) - Hickox (Chandos)

Then pop in the symphony and concertos.

As with Cyril Scott, Dyson has been the subject of a relatively recent major study. If you have space on your shelves, Paul Spicer's "Sir George Dyson: his life and music" (The Boydell Press, 2014) is a model of scholarship and readability.

I think that Dyson developed a very recognisable and distinctive harmonic style quite early on, and his choral writing and orchestration is that of a consummate expert. What's not to like?

 ;D

I don't know The Blacksmiths but endorse your recommendations of all the others. 'In Honour of the City' (London) is a work that I especially enjoy.
This is also one of my favourite Dyson CDs
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 26, 2023, 12:20:07 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on January 26, 2023, 12:13:46 AMI don't know The Blacksmiths but endorse your recommendations of all the others. 'In Honour of the City' (London) is a work that I especially enjoy.

Dyson's In Honour of the City is simply thrilling, especially under Willcocks. It knocks Walton's 1937 setting into a cocked hat...

 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on January 26, 2023, 05:29:45 AM
Quote from: Albion on January 26, 2023, 12:20:07 AMDyson's In Honour of the City is simply thrilling, especially under Willcocks. It knocks Walton's 1937 setting into a cocked hat...

 ;D

Is it basically another ode to London like RVW's London Symphony?  I guess those composers loved writing music to their city in those days.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 26, 2023, 08:31:36 AM
Quote"Night hath no wings" from Quo Vadis is sublime.

Primarily a choral composer, his works attained considerable success during his lifetime but have been neglected in performance since his death. Nevertheless, all the main works have now been recorded and you can build yourself a tidy library with the following essential discs:

In Honour of the City (1928)/ The Canterbury Pilgrims (1930) - Hickox (Chandos)
St Paul's Voyage to Melita (1933) - Hill (Naxos)
The Blacksmiths (1934) - Willcocks (Somm)
Nebuchadnezzar (1935) - Hickox (Chandos)
Quo Vadis (1939-48) - Hickox (Chandos)

I don't much care for the early Choral Symphony recorded by Naxos, but the accompanying rendition of St Paul's Voyage to Melita is absolutely superb: Dyson's depiction of the storm at sea is quite individual and the choral writing is incredibly difficult (as it is in The Blacksmiths). We are lucky to have all these works on disc for repeated listening.

Then pop in the symphony and concertos.

As with Cyril Scott, Dyson has been the subject of a relatively recent major study. If you have space on your shelves, Paul Spicer's "Sir George Dyson: his life and music" (The Boydell Press, 2014) is a model of scholarship and readability.

I think that Dyson developed a very recognisable and distinctive harmonic style quite early on, and his choral writing and orchestration is that of a consummate expert. What's not to like?

 ;D


Very surprised you don't have the Concerto da Chiesa on your list which is not just one of Dyson's finest works but one of the great (but under-appreciated) British works for String Orchestra.  That said - I prefer Walton's "In Honour of the City of London"(!).  The version coupled with the Symphony on Naxos by Lloyd-Jones is a step up on Hickox's rather lack-lustre symphony I reckon......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Symphonic Addict on January 26, 2023, 09:17:37 AM
Quote from: Albion on January 25, 2023, 04:38:07 PMWhich of Dyson's works would you particularly promote?

 8)

The Canterbury Pilgrims is glorious, that would be my first choice. Then the Violin Concerto and the Choral Symphony. I see others mentioning the Symphony in G major, but I frankly don't consider it that special.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 26, 2023, 11:07:12 AM
Dyson? Get a thread.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on January 26, 2023, 01:10:57 PM
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on January 26, 2023, 09:17:37 AMThe Canterbury Pilgrims is glorious, that would be my first choice. Then the Violin Concerto and the Choral Symphony. I see others mentioning the Symphony in G major, but I frankly don't consider it that special.
It's grown on me over the years  :)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 26, 2023, 01:31:18 PM
QuoteDyson? Get a thread.

C'mon! Brian is up to page 411(!!!) - he can spare a pal a page.... ;)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 26, 2023, 06:05:59 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 26, 2023, 01:31:18 PMC'mon! Brian is up to page 411(!!!) - he can spare a pal a page.... ;)

 ;D  ;D  ;D

Tangential posting is greatly to be welcomed. It can divert many a chat...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 26, 2023, 06:10:19 PM
Quote from: relm1 on January 26, 2023, 05:29:45 AMIs it basically another ode to London like RVW's London Symphony?  I guess those composers loved writing music to their city in those days.

Other than Alan Bush and Korngold, nobody has much bothered with my adopted city...

 :'(
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on January 26, 2023, 11:59:12 PM
Quote from: Albion on January 26, 2023, 06:10:19 PMOther than Alan Bush and Korngold, nobody has much bothered with my adopted city...

 :'(

TANGENTIAL POSTING ALERT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8retP3Durs
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Irons on January 27, 2023, 12:04:23 AM
Why no mention of Dyson's Violin Concerto? I prefer it to his Symphony.



Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on January 28, 2023, 08:10:14 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on January 26, 2023, 11:59:12 PMTANGENTIAL POSTING ALERT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8retP3Durs

 ;D

Where I live in Nottingham, you'd better have more than a bow and arrow at your disposal to repel the marauders and don't even think of going out in green tights...

 ::)

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on February 10, 2023, 04:58:07 AM
What might constitute an "essential" Havergal Brian library on CD if you had to restrict yourself to only ten recordings (including reissued compilations)?

Mine would (possibly) be:

The Vision of Cleopatra, Fantastic Variations, For Valour (Dutton)
The Tigers (Testament)
Symphony No.1, The Gothic (Hyperion)
Symphony Nos 3 and 17 (Heritage)
Symphonies Nos 5, 19 and 27, Festal Dance (Dutton)
Symphonies Nos 6 and 16 (Lyrita)
Symphonies Nos 7, 8, 9, 31 and The Tinker's Wedding (EMI)
Symphonies Nos 10 and 30, Concerto for Orchestra, English Suite No.3 (Dutton)
Faust (Dutton)
Symphonies Nos 22, 23 and 24, English Suite No.1 (Naxos)


I think it gives a fair view of early, middle and late Brian as well as showing off what he could do in vocal/ choral music and opera.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on February 10, 2023, 06:09:33 AM
I really liked The Vision of Cleopatra.  I think very highly of early Brian.  They are all such strong works yet full of character.  Perhaps not as individual as his mid/late works but fine nonetheless. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on February 10, 2023, 06:59:15 AM
Quote from: relm1 on February 10, 2023, 06:09:33 AMI really liked The Vision of Cleopatra.  I think very highly of early Brian.  They are all such strong works yet full of character.  Perhaps not as individual as his mid/late works but fine nonetheless. 

The Vision of Cleopatra is just simply gorgeous, ecstatic and full of melody and John Pickard's re-orchestration is virtuosic. The disc (CDLX 7348) also contains one of Brian's most beautiful works Requiem for the Rose. Of course Brian's style changed over a 70 year composing career, but this early stuff (along with the Burlesque Variations, For Valour, Psalm 23, English Suite No.1, In Memoriam, Fantastic Variations and Doctor Merryheart) is really wonderful and so approachable. No concert promoter will ever programme it since Brian has the misguided reputation of being a "tough nut to crack"...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 10, 2023, 12:31:37 PM
Quote from: Albion on February 10, 2023, 06:59:15 AMNo concert promoter will ever programme it since Brian has the misguided reputation of being a "tough nut to crack"...
Makes you wonder how 'concert promoters' get their jobs in the first place. We seem to live in a society where incompetents rule.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on February 10, 2023, 04:44:03 PM
Quote from: Albion on February 10, 2023, 06:59:15 AMThe Vision of Cleopatra is just simply gorgeous, ecstatic and full of melody and John Pickard's re-orchestration is virtuosic. The disc (CDLX 7348) also contains one of Brian's most beautiful works Requiem for the Rose. Of course Brian's style changed over a 70 year composing career, but this early stuff (along with the Burlesque Variations, For Valour, Psalm 23, English Suite No.1, In Memoriam, Fantastic Variations and Doctor Merryheart) is really wonderful and so approachable. No concert promoter will ever programme it since Brian has the misguided reputation of being a "tough nut to crack"...

I think there is a clear line between Tchaikovsky-> Rachmaninoff -> Prokofiev -> Brian.  So much of Rach's Symphony No. 3 I hear in many works of Prokofiev.  You can clearly tell there is a passing of the baton.  Brian, similarly, has this inheritance of germanic an russian tradition.  Yet it's clearly individual. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on February 10, 2023, 06:05:25 PM
Quote from: relm1 on February 10, 2023, 04:44:03 PMI think there is a clear line between Tchaikovsky-> Rachmaninoff -> Prokofiev -> Brian.  So much of Rach's Symphony No. 3 I hear in many works of Prokofiev.  You can clearly tell there is a passing of the baton.  Brian, similarly, has this inheritance of germanic an russian tradition.  Yet it's clearly individual. 

Brian was incredibly aware of musical heritage and repertoire both as a professional critic and a composer (remaining tuned-in to contemporary music throughout his entire life) and one of his great heroes was Berlioz, a similarly total maverick. I equate Brian in some ways with Rued Langgaard, writing his music to total indifference but still ploughing on and creating a unique sound-world...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on February 11, 2023, 05:57:17 AM
QuoteBrian was incredibly aware of musical heritage and repertoire both as a professional critic and a composer (remaining tuned-in to contemporary music throughout his entire life) and one of his great heroes was Berlioz, a similarly total maverick. I equate Brian in some ways with Rued Langgaard, writing his music to total indifference but still ploughing on and creating a unique sound-world...

I think part of my admiration for Brian the composer grew from reading these books....

(https://productimages.worldofbooks.com/0907689205.jpg)(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ejsAAOSwk1xj4jLU/s-l500.jpg)

which made me appreciate that although Brian was completely "up to date" with current musical styles and trends he was determined to write his own music very much in his own way.  His critical writing is insightful and astute.  I recommend both these books very strongly

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: DaveF on February 11, 2023, 07:40:07 AM
Quote from: Albion on February 10, 2023, 04:58:07 AMWhat might constitute an "essential" Havergal Brian library on CD if you had to restrict yourself to only ten recordings (including reissued compilations)?

Mine would (possibly) be:

The Vision of Cleopatra, Fantastic Variations, For Valour (Dutton)
The Tigers (Testament)
Symphony No.1, The Gothic (Hyperion)
Symphony Nos 3 and 17 (Heritage)
Symphonies Nos 5, 19 and 27, Festal Dance (Dutton)
Symphonies Nos 6 and 16 (Lyrita)
Symphonies Nos 7, 8, 9, 31 and The Tinker's Wedding (EMI)
Symphonies Nos 10 and 30, Concerto for Orchestra, English Suite No.3 (Dutton)
Faust (Dutton)
Symphonies Nos 22, 23 and 24, English Suite No.1 (Naxos)


I think it gives a fair view of early, middle and late Brian as well as showing off what he could do in vocal/ choral music and opera.

Certainly agree with you over the Brabbins Gothic, Fredman 6 and 16 and Groves 7-31.  I think a lot of people would include the Leicestershire Schools' no.10 in preference to Brabbins' - just more atmospheric and mysterious.  I personally find Brabbins' no.10 unlistenable because of an extraordinary misreading/bad edit/typo in the part in the 'cello theme at 2'10" - extraordinary to me, anyway, although no review I've seen remarks on it.  (The same passage, played correctly, is at 2'40" in the LSSO recording, timings which by themselves reveal a lot.)

I would also include, although aware it's not many listeners' favourite, the 1976 Siegeslied from Alexandra Palace.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on February 11, 2023, 12:10:48 PM
Quote from: Albion on February 10, 2023, 04:58:07 AMWhat might constitute an "essential" Havergal Brian library on CD if you had to restrict yourself to only ten recordings (including reissued compilations)?

Mine would (possibly) be:

The Vision of Cleopatra, Fantastic Variations, For Valour (Dutton)
The Tigers (Testament)
Symphony No.1, The Gothic (Hyperion)
Symphony Nos 3 and 17 (Heritage)
Symphonies Nos 5, 19 and 27, Festal Dance (Dutton)
Symphonies Nos 6 and 16 (Lyrita)
Symphonies Nos 7, 8, 9, 31 and The Tinker's Wedding (EMI)
Symphonies Nos 10 and 30, Concerto for Orchestra, English Suite No.3 (Dutton)
Faust (Dutton)
Symphonies Nos 22, 23 and 24, English Suite No.1 (Naxos)


I think it gives a fair view of early, middle and late Brian as well as showing off what he could do in vocal/ choral music and opera.
Symphony 1 'Gothic'(Marco Polo)
Symphony 2 (Dutton/Naxos)
Symphony 3 (Hyperion)
Symphony 6 (Lyrita)
Symphony 7 (Mackerras although the Naxos is fine too)
Symphony 8 (Groves)
Symphony 10 (Unicorn - I prefer it to the professional recording)
Symphony 16 (Lyrita)
Symphony 22 (CBS/Heritage)
In Memoriam (Marco Polo)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on February 11, 2023, 12:19:27 PM
Quote from: DaveF on February 11, 2023, 07:40:07 AMCertainly agree with you over the Brabbins Gothic, Fredman 6 and 16 and Groves 7-31.  I think a lot of people would include the Leicestershire Schools' no.10 in preference to Brabbins' - just more atmospheric and mysterious.  I personally find Brabbins' no.10 unlistenable because of an extraordinary misreading/bad edit/typo in the part in the 'cello theme at 2'10" - extraordinary to me, anyway, although no review I've seen remarks on it.  (The same passage, played correctly, is at 2'40" in the LSSO recording, timings which by themselves reveal a lot.)

I would also include, although aware it's not many listeners' favourite, the 1976 Siegeslied from Alexandra Palace.

I absolutely LOVE the Loughran No.10, and Brabbins doesn't equal it in the central storm but the couplings are just so valuable on the Dutton disc. The LSSO were inspired and it's a classic. John Poole was such a brilliant Brian conductor (vide 3 and 17 on Heritage), as were Fredman and Pope, that I wish they'd all been given more studio opportunity. Even so, the broadcasts are now coming out in high quality transcriptions. Poole's Das Siegeslied knocks the socks off the Adrian Leaper (Naxos), and it has Felicity Palmer.

The recent Naxos recordings with the New Russia State SO are incredible: Alexander Walker never puts a foot wrong and the orchestra sound as though they've been playing this music for decades rather than ten minutes. The pacing of each performance is impeccable and the actual engineering is some of the best that Naxos has ever done with plenty of clarity and bass. There are four discs so far:

Symphony 22, Symphony 23, Symphony 24, English Suite No.1 (8.572833)

Symphony 6, Symphony 28, Symphony 29, Symphony 31 (8.573408)

Symphony 8, Symphony 21, Symphony 26 (8.573752)

Symphony 7, Symphony 16, The Tinker's Wedding (8.573959)


I'd really like to hear more from Walker, especially No. 9, but given the current situation I don't know if Naxos are recording anything in Russia...


 ::)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on February 11, 2023, 12:52:11 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 11, 2023, 12:10:48 PMSymphony 1 'Gothic'(Marco Polo)
Symphony 2 (Dutton/Naxos)
Symphony 3 (Hyperion)
Symphony 6 (Lyrita)
Symphony 7 (Mackerras although the Naxos is fine too)
Symphony 8 (Groves)
Symphony 10 (Unicorn - I prefer it to the professional recording)
Symphony 16 (Lyrita)
Symphony 22 (CBS/Heritage)
In Memoriam (Marco Polo)

Interesting that we've gone for different things! I prefer the Hyperion Gothic to the Naxos, partly because I was at the performance and the visceral thrill was incredible (several faults were subsequently corrected in editing). Dump the Hyperion No.3 in the nearest bin and get Stanley Pope: the performance is better and the sonics are better. As for No.2, Rowe's performance is just bloody dismal in what is already a pretty dismal work, meandering around dismal stuff that just goes nowhere (except in the scherzo). Brian seriously raised his game for No.3, dropped it for No.4 (which is fun if you want to annoy your neighbours), then picked it up again from Nos 5-11 before becoming formulaic (but always fascinating). No.16 is the highlight of the middle period (thank Dog for Fredman and Lyrita) and Nos 28-32 are endlessly intriguing. Virtually everything has now been recorded to a very high standard, barring The Cenci (due from Toccata), Prometheus Unbound (full score lost) and Agamemnon. I've been working on cleaning up the BBC broadcast of the last from a conflation of sources (a work in progress, until something better comes along)...

https://www.mediafire.com/file/32jwzsmnswmsx75/Brian_-_Agamemnon_%25281957%2529.mp3/file

:D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on February 11, 2023, 01:03:59 PM
Quote from: Albion on February 11, 2023, 12:52:11 PMInteresting that we've gone for different things! I prefer the Hyperion Gothic to the Naxos, partly because I was at the performance and the visceral thrill was incredible (several faults were subsequently corrected in editing). Dump the Hyperion No.3 in the nearest bin and get Stanley Pope: the performance is better and the sonics are better. As for No.2, Rowe's performance is just bloody dismal in what is already a pretty dismal work, meandering around dismal stuff that just goes nowhere (except in the scherzo). Brian seriously raised his game for No.3, dropped it for No.4 (which is fun if you want to annoy your neighbours), then picked it up again from Nos 5-11 before becoming formulaic (but always fascinating). No.16 is the highlight of the middle period (thank Dog for Fredman and Lyrita) and Nos 28-32 are endlessly intriguing. Virtually everything has now been recorded to a very high standard, barring The Cenci (due from Toccata), Prometheus Unbound (full score lost) and Agamemnon. I've been working on cleaning up the BBC broadcast of the last from a conflation of sources (a work in progress, until something better comes along)...

https://www.mediafire.com/file/32jwzsmnswmsx75/Brian_-_Agamemnon_%25281957%2529.mp3/file

:D
I was at the Brabbins 'Gothic' as well, as were some others here (I was also at Ole Schmidt's performance many years ago). Both were great occasions.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on February 12, 2023, 02:20:36 AM
This arrived yesterday:
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on February 12, 2023, 07:58:01 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 12, 2023, 02:20:36 AMThis arrived yesterday:

(https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=96557;image)


Thanks. That's another one I have to get, if only to ensure that the pile of Brian CDs falls over like a game of Jenga. Fredman was always good with Brian...

 ;D
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on February 12, 2023, 12:07:30 PM
Wonder why it's not on Spotify yet...

The other discs in that series are.

Also I defy you. The Hyperion 3 has been very very servicable for over 20 years and for that I shall be forever grateful.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 13, 2023, 11:51:58 AM
Thanks for the Agamemnon link. It could certainly do with a modern recording. It's the most amazing work, and quite like an HB symphony in its energy and compression.
As to Brian other operas I think the Tigers is his best, the recently recorded Faust was magnificent, but I don't think I'll be listening to it very often. I'd like to hear a performance of Turandot, because the bits of orchestral music we have heard from it are interesting. The Cenci is a bit grim, and the subject matter is probably less acceptable to audiences these days than when it was written!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on February 15, 2023, 03:59:56 AM
I greatly enjoyed this extract from the booklet notes (written by John Pickard) to the new Heritage CD of HB's symphonies 8,9, 22 'Brevis'and 24 conducted by Myer Fredman:

'Fredman met and corresponded with Brian when the composer was living in Shoreham-by-Sea towards the end of his life. Indeed, Brian accepted an invitation from Fredman to one of the performances he was conducting in 1969 at nearby Glyndebourne of Massenet's Werther. Fredman later reported that Brian greatly enjoyed the performance, even though he apparently confused Fredman's name with that of the comedian Marty Feldman!'
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on February 15, 2023, 04:50:29 AM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 15, 2023, 03:59:56 AMI greatly enjoyed this extract from the booklet notes (written by John Pickard) to the new Heritage CD of HB's symphonies 8,9, 22 'Brevis'and 24 conducted by Myer Fredman:

'Fredman met and corresponded with Brian when the composer was living in Shoreham-by-Sea towards the end of his life. Indeed, Brian accepted an invitation from Fredman to one of the performances he was conducting in 1969 at nearby Glyndebourne of Massenet's Werther. Fredman later reported that Brian greatly enjoyed the performance, even though he apparently confused Fredman's name with that of the comedian Marty Feldman!'


;D  ;D  ;D

As the composer was 93, I think Fredman was dealing with Havergal Brain...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 15, 2023, 01:05:27 PM
Quote from: vandermolen on February 15, 2023, 03:59:56 AMI greatly enjoyed this extract from the booklet notes (written by John Pickard) to the new Heritage CD of HB's symphonies 8,9, 22 'Brevis'and 24 conducted by Myer Fredman:

'Fredman met and corresponded with Brian when the composer was living in Shoreham-by-Sea towards the end of his life. Indeed, Brian accepted an invitation from Fredman to one of the performances he was conducting in 1969 at nearby Glyndebourne of Massenet's Werther. Fredman later reported that Brian greatly enjoyed the performance, even though he apparently confused Fredman's name with that of the comedian Marty Feldman!'

Because he was born so far back in Victoria's reign I think we forget that lived on into the era of television. Funny to think of him watching 1960s BBC shows!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on February 15, 2023, 04:49:53 PM
Quote from: Albion on February 11, 2023, 12:52:11 PMInteresting that we've gone for different things! I prefer the Hyperion Gothic to the Naxos, partly because I was at the performance and the visceral thrill was incredible (several faults were subsequently corrected in editing). Dump the Hyperion No.3 in the nearest bin and get Stanley Pope: the performance is better and the sonics are better. As for No.2, Rowe's performance is just bloody dismal in what is already a pretty dismal work, meandering around dismal stuff that just goes nowhere (except in the scherzo). Brian seriously raised his game for No.3, dropped it for No.4 (which is fun if you want to annoy your neighbours), then picked it up again from Nos 5-11 before becoming formulaic (but always fascinating). No.16 is the highlight of the middle period (thank Dog for Fredman and Lyrita) and Nos 28-32 are endlessly intriguing. Virtually everything has now been recorded to a very high standard, barring The Cenci (due from Toccata), Prometheus Unbound (full score lost) and Agamemnon. I've been working on cleaning up the BBC broadcast of the last from a conflation of sources (a work in progress, until something better comes along)...

https://www.mediafire.com/file/32jwzsmnswmsx75/Brian_-_Agamemnon_%25281957%2529.mp3/file

:D

I just finished listening again to the 2nd under Brabbins on Dutton and I'll have to disagree that it's a dismal work overall. There are glimmers of genius in the 1st movement, and the only movement that really goes nowhere for me is the second. Brabbins's scherzo is magnificent, and the concluding funeral march really shines under his baton. I never did like the work when I had only heard Rowe's recording, but Brabbins seems to know how to make it both coherent and moving.

Sure, the 3rd is a giant leap forward and shows Brian on his best footing - compared to it the 2nd pales. But I think, listened to on its own terms, the 2nd is still not a total failure. YMMV.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on March 19, 2023, 04:46:32 PM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQyNjE5MC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NzI5MzI2MjZ9)

I really enjoyed this disc.  I didn't think No. 9 was as well performed as Sir Charles Groves album.  Timpani was way too passive and organ nonexistent.  But I found No. 24 to be gorgeous!  I liked hearing this set of interpretations because at the very least, it brought new insight of pieces I've known before but also introduced me to new music I hadn't yet heard and was very impressed with. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on March 20, 2023, 12:55:05 AM
Quote from: relm1 on March 19, 2023, 04:46:32 PM(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTQyNjE5MC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NzI5MzI2MjZ9)

I really enjoyed this disc.  I didn't think No. 9 was as well performed as Sir Charles Groves album.  Timpani was way too passive and organ nonexistent.  But I found No. 24 to be gorgeous!  I liked hearing this set of interpretations because at the very least, it brought new insight of pieces I've known before but also introduced me to new music I hadn't yet heard and was very impressed with. 
8,9 and 22 are three of my favourites. That Groves album was very special however.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vers la flamme on March 20, 2023, 06:07:51 PM
Quote from: Albion on January 25, 2023, 04:10:34 AMI'm sure that I'm getting increasingly senile. I was just about to order 8, 21 and 26 (Naxos) and 3, 17 (Heritage) from Amazon, then went to the shelf and there they were already lurking. The Stanley Pope No.3 is the one to have, as it's just bloody gorgeous: chuck the Hyperion (dry as a corpse recording) out of the window or use it as a coaster. Alexander Walker's No.8 is a scorcher and better played than the Groves RLPO.

Prolific throughout an enormously long composing career, he is best known for the 32 numbered symphonies. Luckily we can now assemble good recordings of all of them, and there are some real crackers. Several of the BBC broadcasts have also been commercially released. For what it's worth, here are my top recommendations...

No.1, The Gothic - Brabbins, Hyperion CDA67971/2
No.2 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7330
No.3 - Pope, Heritage HTGCD153
No.4, Das Siegeslied - Leaper, Naxos 8.570308
No.5, Wine of Summer - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7314
No.6, Sinfonia Tragica - Fredman, Lyrita SRCD295
No.7 - Mackerras, EMI 724357578226
No.8 - Walker, Naxos 8.573752
No.9 - Groves, EMI 724357578226
No.10 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7267
No.11 - Leaper, Naxos 8.572014
No.12 - Leaper, Naxos 8.570308
No.13 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7296
No.14 - Brabbins CDLX7330
No.15 - Rowe, Naxos 8.572014
No.16 - Fredman, Lyrita SRCD295
No.17 - Pope, Heritage HTGCD153
No.18 - Friend, Naxos 8.557775
No.19 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7314
No.20 - Penny, Naxos 8.572641
No.21 - Walker, Naxos 8.573752
No.22, Symphonia brevis - Walker, Naxos 8.572833
No.23 - Walker, Naxos 8.572833
No.24 - Walker, Naxos 8.572833
No.25 - Penny, Naxos 8.572641
No.26 - Walker, Naxos 8.573752
No.27 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7314
No.28 - Walker, Naxos 8.573408
No.29 - Walker, Naxos 8.573408
No.30 - Brabbins, Dutton CDLX7267
No.31 - Walker, Naxos 8.573408
No.32 - Leaper, Naxos 8.572020

 :)

Thanks for this, I don't know anything about this composer, but every time I see this 412 page thread in the Composer Discussion forum it reminds me that I should try figure out what his music is all about.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on March 21, 2023, 05:31:33 AM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 20, 2023, 06:07:51 PMThanks for this, I don't know anything about this composer, but every time I see this 412 page thread in the Composer Discussion forum it reminds me that I should try figure out what his music is all about.

That or a few of us are obsessed fans. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vers la flamme on March 21, 2023, 11:30:47 AM
I picked this up (download) after seeing Roasted Swan talk about it a few pages back.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8c4kx06R/image.jpg)

And I noticed Klassik Haus has a bunch of other Brian recordings on there, all downloadable. Which ones are worth picking up?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on March 21, 2023, 03:31:50 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 21, 2023, 11:30:47 AMI picked this up (download) after seeing Roasted Swan talk about it a few pages back.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8c4kx06R/image.jpg)

And I noticed Klassik Haus has a bunch of other Brian recordings on there, all downloadable. Which ones are worth picking up?

As you rightly worked out these are off-air radio broadcasts.  The same broadcasts that have been praised earlier in this thread in their "Heritage" releases.  I assume they have used different off-air recording sources unless they have had access to the BBC master tapes - someone here will know!

But of course there is quite a price difference between the Heritage and Klassichaus releases.  If you get into Brian then I'd say all of the Klassichaus/Heritage are worth hearing although - with a couple of exceptions - I prefer the better quality of the more modern studio verisons to allow the detail of Brian's often complex scoring to register.  Klassichaus also have some of the famous Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra recordings of Brian which were literally ground-breaking at the time and in fact for a youth orchestra they play these pieces very well - there were a lot of young players there who went onto be top professionals (back in the day when the UK government and Local Education Authorities funded such things.... don't get me started......)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vers la flamme on March 21, 2023, 04:00:40 PM
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 21, 2023, 03:31:50 PMAs you rightly worked out these are off-air radio broadcasts.  The same broadcasts that have been praised earlier in this thread in their "Heritage" releases.  I assume they have used different off-air recording sources unless they have had access to the BBC master tapes - someone here will know!

But of course there is quite a price difference between the Heritage and Klassichaus releases.  If you get into Brian then I'd say all of the Klassichaus/Heritage are worth hearing although - with a couple of exceptions - I prefer the better quality of the more modern studio verisons to allow the detail of Brian's often complex scoring to register.  Klassichaus also have some of the famous Leicestershire Schools Symphony Orchestra recordings of Brian which were literally ground-breaking at the time and in fact for a youth orchestra they play these pieces very well - there were a lot of young players there who went onto be top professionals (back in the day when the UK government and Local Education Authorities funded such things.... don't get me started......)

I enjoyed that disc earlier! As you say that the recordings are all worth hearing, are there any of Brian's symphonies that you see as highlights among his work?
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 21, 2023, 05:58:11 PM
Quote from: vers la flamme on March 21, 2023, 04:00:40 PMI enjoyed that disc earlier! As you say that the recordings are all worth hearing, are there any of Brian's symphonies that you see as highlights among his work?

This is the point at which everyone starts listing their favourites! I think I'm correct to say that the following HB symphonies are well-regarded by most Brianites:

The Gothic, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, 16, 21, 22-23, 27, 29, 30, 31

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on March 22, 2023, 05:50:23 AM
Brian is an interesting composer partially because he has quite a lot of range.  His late symphonies come from a relatively short period of time so have a more uniform style of brevity and conciseness plus to me at least, a bit of mania.  Some other works have a maximalist quality (the early Symphonies 1 to 4).  I also happen to love his very early, more English traditional music too.  There is a beautiful and lyrical side to him too.  No. 5 and 24 (from the recent Myer Fredman heritage was just gorgeous).  This last section makes me want to explore his songs because though I've never heard them, aside from his more overt styles, he can also be a lyricist full of lovely and delicate emotions.  That is a massive range when you think about it.  Throughout all this and his career longevity, his distinctive voice is always clear. 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 22, 2023, 07:08:33 AM
I've said it before, but not for a while, so I'll repeat myself - for me Brian's finest symphony has always been the 8th, and that's because it's the one where his method of juxtaposition works with the most inexorable dramatic force. It has a kind of centrifugal pull (or do I mean centripental?), in which the contrast from one section to the next becomes more extreme, and in general the sections become shorter, to a shattering degree, so that his usual textural technique becomes especially telling and expressive. It contains some of Brian's most radiant lyricism and also some of his most powerfully rhythmic, martial music, each cutting across the other. Because the material is so strong, never anonymous but always very well characterised, the music never seems fragmented and the form is always compelling and clear. The Gothic is very special for its own reasons, of course, and actually marvellously structured, too (the final twenty minutes or so, where everything draws together and you feel like you are holding your breath, is miraculous music). But it is the 8th, for me, that is Brian, at his very best.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 22, 2023, 07:18:04 AM
I'd also extend each side of the 8th, because I think everything from 6-10 is top drawer and communicates really strongly and easily.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vers la flamme on March 22, 2023, 02:11:33 PM
^ Many thanks to the three of you. This should help.

I don't think I'm ready for the Gothic—I've heard it all before, at least once, but not all together. Some day in the future when I have two hours to kill I'll try it start to finish; until then I'm actually enjoying listening to his other, shorter symphonies. The Klassik Haus thing I downloaded is proving to be really good.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on March 22, 2023, 02:29:23 PM
You could just go for the first three movements of The Gothic - the part before the Te Deum. It's a complete symphony in itself, but not inordinately long, and listening to it on its own is 'allowed.' It is also a good entry point into Brian's style - you listen along as he finds his own way, each movement masterly but growing more confidently Brianic as they progress. By the end of the third movement you have reached a pretty exalted plane.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 22, 2023, 01:28:06 AM
One question not posed by MacDonald's books is the influence of Brian's music. I suppose this is because when the books were written it was only a few years since the BBC had completed the broadcasts of the symphonies and so MacDonald felt that there hadn't been enough time for Brian's influence to be felt.

I was listening to the Symphonies 2 & 3 (1992, 1999) of John Geddes, a Scottish composer, and detected a Brianic influence (alongside Tippett and other influences). Worth a listen, Symphony No.2 on Youtube, No.3 from Albion's archive.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Leggiero on May 22, 2023, 08:30:28 AM
I think I've heard, and liked, the symphonies of John Geddes in the past - time for me to revisit them, perhaps...

One "influenced by" name that springs to mind is my acquaintance Steve Elcock, another composer who spent decades writing music in obscurity before finally being picked up by Toccata Classics (in his 60s)...prompting a very Brianic later-life resurgence in compositional activity! A clear example for me of influence is the start of his 3rd Symphony - very much like the opening of Brian 8. Available on all the usual streaming suspects, and also (to a more limited extent) on YouTube.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Ashen Pathfinder on July 19, 2023, 08:05:15 PM
Hope you are all doing well! I'm very happy to find a community of fellow Brian supporters!  ;D

Been on a bit of a Brian binge lately. The Gothic fully connected to me and I have been really expanding my repertoire with him! Heck; I even think his second symphony is severely underrated, even tho it took a LONG time to finally 'get' it!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on July 20, 2023, 06:03:02 AM
Quote from: Ashen Pathfinder on July 19, 2023, 08:05:15 PMHope you are all doing well! I'm very happy to find a community of fellow Brian supporters!  ;D

Been on a bit of a Brian binge lately. The Gothic fully connected to me and I have been really expanding my repertoire with him! Heck; I even think his second symphony is severely underrated, even tho it took a LONG time to finally 'get' it!

Welcome Ashen!  There are many of us passionate Brianophiles around here as you can see judging by this thread being 413 pages!  My first encounter with Brian was Groves cassette tape which included No. 8 and No. 9 together.  After that was the Gothic which bowled me over too.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Ashen Pathfinder on July 21, 2023, 09:10:55 PM
Quote from: relm1 on July 20, 2023, 06:03:02 AMWelcome Ashen!  There are many of us passionate Brianophiles around here as you can see judging by this thread being 413 pages!  My first encounter with Brian was Groves cassette tape which included No. 8 and No. 9 together.  After that was the Gothic which bowled me over too.

I appreciate that! Thanks!  ;D

The Gothic was my first exposure to Brian! I was looking for organ/orchestral music and the Gothic (Lenard/Bratislava) popped up. It grabbed me from the first bar!

I still have so much to listen to tho!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: vandermolen on July 22, 2023, 12:13:21 PM
Quote from: Luke on March 22, 2023, 07:08:33 AMI've said it before, but not for a while, so I'll repeat myself - for me Brian's finest symphony has always been the 8th, and that's because it's the one where his method of juxtaposition works with the most inexorable dramatic force. It has a kind of centrifugal pull (or do I mean centripental?), in which the contrast from one section to the next becomes more extreme, and in general the sections become shorter, to a shattering degree, so that his usual textural technique becomes especially telling and expressive. It contains some of Brian's most radiant lyricism and also some of his most powerfully rhythmic, martial music, each cutting across the other. Because the material is so strong, never anonymous but always very well characterised, the music never seems fragmented and the form is always compelling and clear. The Gothic is very special for its own reasons, of course, and actually marvellously structured, too (the final twenty minutes or so, where everything draws together and you feel like you are holding your breath, is miraculous music). But it is the 8th, for me, that is Brian, at his very best.
My vote too for Symphony No.8
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: krummholz on September 01, 2023, 05:17:08 AM
I would have a hard time voting for a single "greatest" Brian symphony. I've posted my top 5 before (3, 8, 16, 22, 30), but if I had to narrow it down to just 2 or 3, I would be hard pressed to choose between #8, #16, and #30. #30, in particular, is the late Brian symphony that just blows me away every time, with its passacaglia-like opening that offers no reduction in tension for the first 4 minutes or so, then the constantly shifting textures of the latter pages of the first movement, a narrative that continues through the second up until just before the coda. My overall impression, after the opening pages, is of a very compressed, even telescoped, synopsis of the moods of a play... and that might even be an accurate impression, as Brian had been working on an opera based on a Sophocles play (I think Oedipus at Colonnus? Or was it Agamemnon?) but was also concerned about getting the right too use the translation. Reportedly, he promised that the music would survive even if he had to table the opera, and then a few weeks later, the Symphony appeared. IMHO one of his very finest.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: foxandpeng on September 01, 2023, 05:34:28 AM
Quote from: krummholz on September 01, 2023, 05:17:08 AMI would have a hard time voting for a single "greatest" Brian symphony. I've posted my top 5 before (3, 8, 16, 22, 30), but if I had to narrow it down to just 2 or 3, I would be hard pressed to choose between #8, #16, and #30. #30, in particular, is the late Brian symphony that just blows me away every time, with its passacaglia-like opening that offers no reduction in tension for the first 4 minutes or so, then the constantly shifting textures of the latter pages of the first movement, a narrative that continues through the second up until just before the coda. My overall impression, after the opening pages, is of a very compressed, even telescoped, synopsis of the moods of a play... and that might even be an accurate impression, as Brian had been working on an opera based on a Sophocles play (I think Oedipus at Colonnus? Or was it Agamemnon?) but was also concerned about getting the right too use the translation. Reportedly, he promised that the music would survive even if he had to table the opera, and then a few weeks later, the Symphony appeared. IMHO one of his very finest.

Listening to #30 now, at your reminder :)

I do need to spend more time to figure out how much I like Brian's music. I like #8 and #10, but don't seem to have much stamina through some of the less immediate works.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 08, 2023, 01:33:03 PM
BBC Radio Three are going to play a piece by Brian this week. Let's see, a composer who wrote 32 symphonies and five operas... Nah, they're going to play Legend for Violin and Piano.  :-\
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on September 09, 2023, 12:34:22 PM
Because they have a Proms performance from last year in the archive.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 30, 2023, 12:30:39 PM
I've been doing that most dangerous of things, thinking about the Gothic, and from simply marvelling at its size and accomplishment I have come to an Interpretation of it. This is what I think:

When I first got to know the Gothic Symphony I assumed that as Brian showed no obvious signs of an interest in conventional Christianity anywhere else in his work or correspondence then the choice of the text of the Te Deum for the Gothic Symphony was a case of finding a convenient text on which to hang the remarkable music of the final three movements, with a nod toward Christianity as the motivating force behind the Gothic period. (I accept the argument that the choice of a Psalm text in German for the Symphony No.4 was for the purposes of exposing the Nazi doctrine of Macht und Kraft, rather than for devotional reasons).
However, with repeated listening I now believe that Brian's Gothic Symphony is in fact an extremely sophisticated critique of Christianity, or theistic religion in general, in effect saying 'the Gothic period was one of a huge expansion of humanity's artistic and intellectual development, but the problem it left us with was...'
This is how I think it goes: the first three movements of the Gothic are a typical Brian symphony showing us a bewildering, highly juxtaposed series of impressions and moments from experience, the confusing experience of life, though by its idiom obviously in the modern era.
The fourth movement of the symphony deals with relatively unsophisticated spiritual exultation and religious expression and shifts the music definitely to E major from the D minor of the previous three movements. Brian is using a traditional Christian text and Beethoven in the Ninth Symphony is using a Enlightenment Deistic text for the same purposes. 
However, in the fifth and sixth movements Brian goes beyond Beethoven; the fifth movement is based solely on the text Judex crederis esse venturus, and the music has darkened, being much grimmer in tone. A superficial interpretation of this would see this as a result of thoughts of judgement. But I believe that Brian is saying here 'If people believe that a God is going to judge them there is a tendency for them to use this as an excuse to wage war (literal or figurative) on others in the name of that God and conformity.' And of course, immediately after the Gothic period this is what happened in Europe with the Reformation, the wars of religion, and also colonialism, the use of religion as a justification for European expansion around the globe. Not surprisingly the movement ends with a massive climax accompanied by the bird-scarer.
The sixth movement alternates these types of music, the exultative and the minatory. It tries to recapture the innocence of the fourth movement, but cannot. The movement turns again to fears of judgement (and no wonder, because the crimes of the wars of religion and colonialism are indeed many), Miserere nostri, Domine. The ending is a huge cacophony ending with the famous quiet supplication of the choir Non confunar in aeternam. But this is not Brian saying, 'the only thing left to us in the face of the chaos of life is trust in God', but saying 'The legacy that the Gothic period has left us is that we are unable to think outside official ideology and religion and find a way through ourselves; we are pathetically helpless, however much we try to pretend that the spiritual legacy it has left us (symbolised by E major) is the best we have.'
And then Brian went on to write another 31 symphonies portraying the (European) human condition without recourse to conventional religion.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: relm1 on November 18, 2023, 06:17:14 AM
Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 30, 2023, 12:30:39 PMI've been doing that most dangerous of things, thinking about the Gothic, and from simply marvelling at its size and accomplishment I have come to an Interpretation of it. This is what I think:

When I first got to know the Gothic Symphony I assumed that as Brian showed no obvious signs of an interest in conventional Christianity anywhere else in his work or correspondence then the choice of the text of the Te Deum for the Gothic Symphony was a case of finding a convenient text on which to hang the remarkable music of the final three movements, with a nod toward Christianity as the motivating force behind the Gothic period. (I accept the argument that the choice of a Psalm text in German for the Symphony No.4 was for the purposes of exposing the Nazi doctrine of Macht und Kraft, rather than for devotional reasons).
However, with repeated listening I now believe that Brian's Gothic Symphony is in fact an extremely sophisticated critique of Christianity, or theistic religion in general, in effect saying 'the Gothic period was one of a huge expansion of humanity's artistic and intellectual development, but the problem it left us with was...'
This is how I think it goes: the first three movements of the Gothic are a typical Brian symphony showing us a bewildering, highly juxtaposed series of impressions and moments from experience, the confusing experience of life, though by its idiom obviously in the modern era.
The fourth movement of the symphony deals with relatively unsophisticated spiritual exultation and religious expression and shifts the music definitely to E major from the D minor of the previous three movements. Brian is using a traditional Christian text and Beethoven in the Ninth Symphony is using a Enlightenment Deistic text for the same purposes. 
However, in the fifth and sixth movements Brian goes beyond Beethoven; the fifth movement is based solely on the text Judex crederis esse venturus, and the music has darkened, being much grimmer in tone. A superficial interpretation of this would see this as a result of thoughts of judgement. But I believe that Brian is saying here 'If people believe that a God is going to judge them there is a tendency for them to use this as an excuse to wage war (literal or figurative) on others in the name of that God and conformity.' And of course, immediately after the Gothic period this is what happened in Europe with the Reformation, the wars of religion, and also colonialism, the use of religion as a justification for European expansion around the globe. Not surprisingly the movement ends with a massive climax accompanied by the bird-scarer.
The sixth movement alternates these types of music, the exultative and the minatory. It tries to recapture the innocence of the fourth movement, but cannot. The movement turns again to fears of judgement (and no wonder, because the crimes of the wars of religion and colonialism are indeed many), Miserere nostri, Domine. The ending is a huge cacophony ending with the famous quiet supplication of the choir Non confunar in aeternam. But this is not Brian saying, 'the only thing left to us in the face of the chaos of life is trust in God', but saying 'The legacy that the Gothic period has left us is that we are unable to think outside official ideology and religion and find a way through ourselves; we are pathetically helpless, however much we try to pretend that the spiritual legacy it has left us (symbolised by E major) is the best we have.'
And then Brian went on to write another 31 symphonies portraying the (European) human condition without recourse to conventional religion.


You might enjoy this book.

https://www.amazon.com/Havergal-Brians-Gothic-Symphony-Studies/dp/0950518514 (https://www.amazon.com/Havergal-Brians-Gothic-Symphony-Studies/dp/0950518514)

It includes two detailed study of the Gothic from his contemporaries plus Brian's own commentary on it.  The work is also somewhat autobiographical.  He was a chorister (tenor) in school and performed much music such as a te deum that had a great impact on him and that time in history (1880's, Victorian) where music he loved including Germanic music was treated as a serious subject, he could pour himself in to.  Quoting Brian: "I retained an impression of something on a vast scale, much of it due to my childish, impressionable mind, because, when many years afterwards I ran down on a visit to Lichfield with friends and went into the cathedral, I did not discover what it was that had overwhelmed me as a child.  The transept is magnificent and imposing, but not to the extent of my imaginative impression." 

The book is worth a read but think your description sounds reasonable but not particularly unexpected.  He describes his obsession with German history, literature, and music and how this combined with his own memories as a chorister in his youth in the middle of magnificent and imposing cathedrals (at least in his imagination).  It shows him to have a deep imagination, not just focused on the spiritual works but imagining being present when those works were created as he sang.    "If in those midnight hours I sometimes saw Frederick The Great, a shrunken figure at the end of a long life of fighting, John Sebastian Bach, Geothe, Berlioz, sitting in an armchair in the darkness around the fire, I attached no importance to the phenomenon." 
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on November 18, 2023, 02:17:20 PM
...and believe it or not, this is the house those visions happened in (photo taken by me):

Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Luke on November 19, 2023, 05:18:51 AM
I forgot that I also took this one, which shows the circular plaque which reads:

COMPOSER
WILLIAM HAVERGAL BRIAN
1876-1972
LIVED AND COMPOSED
THE GOTHIC SYMPHONY
HERE
1922-1927
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on November 19, 2023, 11:24:54 AM
Quote from: Luke on November 19, 2023, 05:18:51 AMI forgot that I also took this one, which shows the circular plaque which reads:

COMPOSER
WILLIAM HAVERGAL BRIAN
1876-1972
LIVED AND COMPOSED
THE GOTHIC SYMPHONY
HERE
1922-1927

a modest house for a mighty work.......
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: hbswebmaster on December 01, 2023, 10:48:01 AM
The Havergal Brian Society has a new group set up on Facebook, kicking off with details of our latest sponsored operatic and symphonic recording featuring Martyn Brabbins and ENO, recording sessions for which are currently under way. See you there!
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Ashen Pathfinder on December 08, 2023, 04:40:37 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 01, 2023, 10:48:01 AMThe Havergal Brian Society has a new group set up on Facebook, kicking off with details of our latest sponsored operatic and symphonic recording featuring Martyn Brabbins and ENO, recording sessions for which are currently under way. See you there!

That's amazing! So excited for new Brian recordings. I wonder if Heritage will be releasing anything new...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on December 09, 2023, 01:35:05 PM
Quote from: hbswebmaster on December 01, 2023, 10:48:01 AMThe Havergal Brian Society has a new group set up on Facebook, kicking off with details of our latest sponsored operatic and symphonic recording featuring Martyn Brabbins and ENO, recording sessions for which are currently under way. See you there!

How fantastic it will be to have a new recording of "Agamemnon" on Hyperion, I have the 1973 broadcast conducted by Richard Armstrong which I assembled from several different sources and it's a very strong work. Once Toccata eventually get round to releasing "The Cenci" that will only leave "Turandot" to tackle.

Brian's "Faust" is an unexpectedly lyrical opera (just sample the first scene of act two). Anybody who can cope with Hindemith will have no problems with this score's more astringent passages. Wonderful stuff, and amazing to think that Brian (born in 1876) was an operatic contemporary of Britten (born in 1913). The forthcoming new releases of "The Cenci" and "Agamemnon" should be a treat...
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Roasted Swan on December 09, 2023, 11:21:44 PM
Quote from: Albion on December 09, 2023, 01:35:05 PMHow fantastic it will be to have a new recording of "Agamemnon" on Hyperion, I have the 1973 broadcast conducted by Richard Armstrong which I assembled from several different sources and it's a very strong work. Once Toccata eventually get round to releasing "The Cenci" that will only leave "Turandot" to tackle.

Brian's "Faust" is an unexpectedly lyrical opera (just sample the first scene of act two). Anybody who can cope with Hindemith will have no problems with this score's more astringent passages. Wonderful stuff, and amazing to think that Brian (born in 1876) was an operatic contemporary of Britten (born in 1913). The forthcoming new releases of "The Cenci" and "Agamemnon" should be a treat...

The Hyperion release to be tinged with some sadness since it has been recorded by Martyn Brabbins and the Orchestra of English National Opera since the Brabbins' resignation over the funding cuts (including loss of 17 posts in the orchestra and loss of full time contracts for everyone else) to the Opera House and its enforced relocation to Manchester.  Not so much "levelling up" as "flattening down".
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 13, 2023, 11:14:37 AM
I think I posted above about whether HB has had any influence on subsequent composers. Today I was listening to the 7th Symphony of Arthur Butterworth which I'd discovered on Youtube (the premiere in 2012), and it occurred to me that the form of that work, a 20 minute continuous movement, and the mood, grim but dogged, were very Brianic. Of course Butterworth's main influence throughout his compositions was Sibelius, but I wonder if, for his last symphony, he hadn't been influenced by some of the Brian recordings coming out in the 2000s, or had hopped on to the HB Society website to have a listen to the BBC radio broadcasts (did it exist then?).
And Butterworth was around 88-89 when he finished his S7, almost as old as Brian when he wrote his last symphonies.
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Maestro267 on January 29, 2024, 05:31:56 AM
Bringing the fabled Brian thread into 2024 with news that the Brabbins recording of the Gothic on Hyperion is part of the latest bunch of recordings released to streaming services.

https://open.spotify.com/album/56PJSZdGl2Z46NSP2GpHUz (https://open.spotify.com/album/56PJSZdGl2Z46NSP2GpHUz)
Title: Re: Havergal Brian.
Post by: Albion on February 11, 2024, 11:45:23 PM
According to an email I received from Martin Anderson the long-awaited issue of "The Cenci" from Toccata is now provisionally scheduled for May/ June.

 8)