GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: BachQ on April 06, 2007, 02:12:18 AM

Title: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 06, 2007, 02:12:18 AM
"I believe in God, Mozart, and Beethoven"  

          ~ Richard Wagner

"There was only Beethoven and Wagner [and] after them, nobody."  

          ~ Gustav Mahler




1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

5. Do you consider Beethoven to be a "classical" (classical era) or "romantic" (romantic era) composer?


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Beethoven.jpg/480px-Beethoven.jpg)


Edit:

(http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/bilder/en/portal/kollage_03_koepfe.jpg)

Beethoven Resources:

 The Grove Concise Dictionary of Music  (http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/beethoven.html)

Beethoven Haus Bonn  (http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php//portal_en)

 LVBEETHOVEN.COM  (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Bio/BiographyLudwig.html)

 Raptus Association for Music Appreciation site on Beethoven  (http://www.raptusassociation.org/)

 Beethoven the Immortal  (http://www.lucare.com/immortal/)

 The Beethoven Reference Site  (http://www.gyrix.com/forums/index.php)

 One Stop Beethoven Resource  (http://classicalmusic.about.com/od/onestopbeethoven/Your_OneStop_Beethoven_Resource.htm)

 All About LvB  (http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/symphony9.html)

 Beethoven Forum (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Forum/list.php?3)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 06, 2007, 02:32:36 AM
Currently, my favorite works of Beethoven are these:

1. Missa Solemnis

2. Piano Concertos 4 and 5

3. Piano Sonatas 29-32 + Waldstein/Tempest/Appassionata/Pathetique

4. Symphonies 3/5/6/7/8/9

5. Ghost and Archduke Trios

6. Late String Quartets

7. Diabelli and Eroica Variations

8. Violin Concerto

9. Overtures to Egmont; King Stephen; Lenore #3

10. Violin Sonatas / Cello Sonatas
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: knight66 on April 06, 2007, 02:39:49 AM
D Minor....I once encountered someone of that name elsewhere, but he knew little about music. D

Good old Beethoven.....

My favorite piece is The Missa Solemnis, it was a late piece, he took three years perfecting it and wrote on the title page. "From the heart, to the heart." He must have been a master musician to compose what he could not hear: by looking at it on the page he must have known how it would sound.
I recently sang it and did wonder at some of the demands he makes on the Basses in the choir where he wants a great deal of volume in notes where basses cannot generally produce a great deal, and this amongst thick textures. I wondered if he had been able to hear, would he have altered the writing? But quite possibly not and what he asks for contributes to the element of physical effort that is so much part of the piece.



A whole new world opens up, I can now repeat what I wrote elsewhere!

Mike
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: knight66 on April 06, 2007, 02:41:38 AM
I see we have put the same piece as top, but possibly next I would have to have the first of the middle period string quartets. I have the Quartet Italiano unfurling that staggering melody that opens the first movement.

Mike
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on April 06, 2007, 02:46:33 AM
My favourite works would be all what the fellow has composed, apart from the vocal works that is!
I am really serious about that, I simply adore all his works, and I am unable to single out one work!
Symphonies by Herbert von Karajan, Quartetto Italiano, and Vegh for the SQ, ans so on.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 06, 2007, 02:47:24 AM
A whole new world opens up, I can now repeat what I wrote elsewhere!

Exactly!  ;D

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 06, 2007, 03:03:00 AM
My favourite works would be all what the fellow has composed, apart from the vocal works that is!

Harry,  I agree that his lieder are very much off my radar screen . . . . . .

I see we have put the same piece as top,

For me, Missa Solemnis took a long time to reach the top, as it had to wrestle beyond the symphonies, sonatas, and concerti.  8)  Piano Concerto no. 4 in G Major was particularly stubborn as my favorite Beethoven work . . . . . . but even it has succumbed to Missa Solemnis . . . . . . . [insert halo smiley]

All things considered, my favorite recording of Missa is Klemperer/New Philharmonia:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e9/36/d7aaa2c008a059fde0697010.L.jpg)



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: knight66 on April 06, 2007, 03:10:48 AM
At to recordings of the Missa....I am still looking for my holy grail, I hear rumours of a stupendous Szell version that is not generally available. In the meantime, I have the 1st Karajan with Janowitz gracing the top line, Toscanini for sheer adrenalin kicks and amongst the other versions I have, the Levine for the way he digs into the second half of the work and manages that balance of certainty and questioning that Beethoven stitched into the piece.

Mike
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: hornteacher on April 06, 2007, 03:21:01 AM
At to recordings of the Missa....I am still looking for my holy grail.

Mike

Gardiner has a marvellous version with the Monteverdi Choir and English Baroque Soloists.  It's a more recent recording but is excellent.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on April 06, 2007, 03:24:11 AM
Hey guys, stop teasing me! >:( I only have one recording (Solti) and don't have the assets right now to get 5-10 others. :'(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: hornteacher on April 06, 2007, 03:27:47 AM
Hi, I'm a newbie, and this is my first thread (first post, actually).  So please, everyone feel free to respond.

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

1. Of course the obvious answers (Symphonies, Missa, Piano Sonatas, String Quartets) but one of the things I like about Beethoven is how he wrote so well for the horn.  No question, he influenced the development of the horn's role in the orchestra.  The trio in the Eroica, the outbursts in the 5th, the wild licks in the finale of the 7th, the great 4TH HORN solo in the 9th, and the very underrated Sonata for Horn and Piano Op. 17, which is a bear to play on a modern horn, let alone a natural one.

Beethoven was good to the horns.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: knight66 on April 06, 2007, 03:35:08 AM
Gardiner has a marvellous version with the Monteverdi Choir and English Baroque Soloists.  It's a more recent recording but is excellent.

I have it, but feel it underplays the emotional content somewhat...efficient is how I would characterise it.

Quote
Hey guys, stop teasing me!  I only have one recording (Solti) and don't have the assets right now to get 5-10 others.

I don't have an official Solti recording, but I do have an off the air recording of his from a London Prom, I was in the choir, so it seems a special performance to me, but in truth the sound is pretty awful. It was televised and my tape needs to be transferred onto DVD, that gives more of a feel for the sheer energy Solti encouraged and the raw excitement that is part of the piece.

Mike
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on April 06, 2007, 03:47:11 AM
Lucia Popp, Yvonne Minton, Mallory Walker, Gwynne Howell, Chicago Symphony Chorus and Orchestra, Sir George Solti. That's what it says. I like it but it's on cassette :-[. I think it's time I bought it on CD... ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: knight66 on April 06, 2007, 03:50:30 AM
Cassette...there is a word one would not have thought to see on this new site! The female singers are excellent, Howell, sounds fine, but he always just stood there like a sack of potatoes and sang with a blank face. I should think it is better not being able to see him. The bass in the Solti I mentioned was Sotin....presence plus.

Mike
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Symphonien on April 06, 2007, 04:11:41 AM
I've loved pretty much all Beethoven I've heard so far: the symphonies, piano sonatas, piano concerti and the violin concerto.

I listened to his symphonies so many times when I first got them... Although I don't listen to them as often anymore, I still never grow tired of listening to one of them now and again. The only ones I haven't quite warmed to as much as the others are the 2nd and 4th.

My favourite work would definitely have to be the Emperor Concerto.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 06, 2007, 04:24:20 AM
Beethoven sucks.


 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on April 06, 2007, 04:31:00 AM
Beethoven sucks.

Really? :o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 06, 2007, 04:33:07 AM
Really? :o

Seemed like a nice first post at the time...perhaps I should reconsider?  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 06, 2007, 04:46:43 AM
OK:

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

His symphonies probably. Many Romantic composers found it difficult to escape the "shadow of Beethoven." Some, like Brahms for instance, felt this influence rather deeply.

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

The piano sonatas, symphonies and string quartets. I can't get more specific than that. Least favorite? I really haven't heard anything that I don't like by him.

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

Perhaps, I am sure that his upbringing also had this effect as well.

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

Symphonies: Szell, HvK '62, Barenboim

Piano Sonatas: Annie Fischer, Gulda (Amadeo), Gilels, Backhaus, Schnabel, Kovacevich, Kempff (m), Hungerford

Concertos: 1- Richter/Munch, 2-Pollini/Jochum, 3-Annie Fischer/Fricsay, Serkin/Bernstein, 4-Arrau/Haitink, 5-Serkin/Bernstein, Pollini/Boehm

Chamber: SQ- Vegh, Italiano

Overtures: Szell/Cleveland
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Novi on April 06, 2007, 04:53:06 AM
Beethoven sucks.

Yeah, hear, hear ... and only those who have no idea with spaces in their names like G E O R G E or squiggles before like ~George have 24 or so sonata sets  :P.

Hello D minor, I'm a newbie too :).

My favourites: I vacillate between the late sonatas and the late quartets, particularly opp 111 and 132. Both are equally sublime, but I think maybe solo piano has the edge.

For orchestral, the Eroica has always been a favourite since before serious listening days even. But last year, I heard the Scottish Chamber Orchestra do a phenomenal 7th which knocked Kleiber from his pedestal (and they have girls in the SCO ;)).

 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 06, 2007, 05:05:56 AM
Yeah, hear, hear ... and only those who have no idea with spaces in their names like G E O R G E or squiggles before like ~George have 24 or so sonata sets  :P.

I don't know what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 06, 2007, 10:01:22 AM
OK:

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

His symphonies probably. Many Romantic composers found it difficult to escape the "shadow of Beethoven." Some, like Brahms for instance, felt this influence rather deeply.

My vote would go to LvB's piano sonatas.  All post-Beethoven composers would be forced to confront Beethoven's unrivaled mastery of that genre . . . . . . and many post-LvB composers wisely left that genre alone, realizing that LvB was the alpha and omega of the piano sonata . . . . . . .  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 06, 2007, 10:15:04 AM
My vote would go to LvB's piano sonatas.  All post-Beethoven composers would be forced to confront Beethoven's unrivaled mastery of that genre . . . . . . and many post-LvB composers wisely left that genre alone, realizing that LvB was the alpha and omega of the piano sonata . . . . . . .  :D

You certainly aren't going to get any argument form me on that point.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 06, 2007, 10:19:33 AM
Concertos: 1- Richter/Munch, 2-Pollini/Jochum, 3-Annie Fischer/Fricsay, Serkin/Bernstein, 4-Arrau/Haitink, 5- Serkin/Beethoven, Pollini/Boehm

You have a recording with Serkin as soloist and Beethoven conducting?

Cool! 

 :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 06, 2007, 10:21:00 AM
You have a recording with Serkin as soloist and Beethoven conducting?

Cool! 

 :D

LOL

It's with Bernstein. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on April 06, 2007, 10:50:22 AM
Hi, I'm a newbie, and this is my first thread (first post, actually).  So please, everyone feel free to respond.

Hi from another newbie. ;D

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?
Beethoven was the greatest composer of the Classical era and the first Romantic composer! Who can beat that?
Most influentual works were - and I'm not very original here: his symphonies (the 3rd was a revolution and so was the 9th), his piano sonatas and his string quartets.

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?
Impossible to give a limited answer: symphonies 3-5 and 7-9, middle and late piano sonatas, all string quartets, several piano trios, the violin sonatas, Missa solemnis, and yes: Fidelio! 8)

Least favorite?
Some juvenelia

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?
I generally think the relevance of these kinds of things is overrated.
So: no - emotional contect stems from character and intelligence.

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?
D Minor! What a question - please think of the workload in replying! ;D
OK, some highlights (all of which are familiar favourites):

Symphonies: Jochum/RCO; Kletzki/CzPO, several Klemperer and Furtwängler recordings with the Furtw./9th with the Philharmonia from '54 as highlight.

Piano concertos: Kempff/Van Kempen; Solomon/Cluytens & Menges, Schnabel/Sargent

Piano sonatas: Kempff, Schnabel.

String quartets: Busch Quartet, Vegh Quartet.

Fidelio: Furtwängler live '53.

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: 71 dB on April 06, 2007, 10:53:52 AM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

1. Late String Quartets + Missa Solemnis

2. Favorites: Late String Quartets + Missa Solemnis + Symphony 6 + Piano Concerto 4
Least favorite: Fidelio, Symphonies 1 & 2.

3. Not considerable. They may have some effect thou.

4. I am happy with my Naxos String Quartet discs and Ronald Brautigam's Piano Sonatas (vol 1) on BIS is an awesome SACD! 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Don on April 06, 2007, 12:14:17 PM
Favorite Piano Sonata - Hammerklavier/Pollini).  For the other sonatas, I go with Brendel.

Cello Sonatas - Coin/Cohen/Harmonia Mundi.

Missa Solemnis - Klemperer/EMI.

I have much more Beethoven than I tend to listen to.  Guess he's not my soul mate.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: facehugger on April 06, 2007, 01:39:28 PM
late quartets

seriously
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on April 06, 2007, 03:34:40 PM
If anyone'd like to try Beethoven's oratorio Christ on the Mount of Olives op. 85 (not recorded very often, I believe), I've posted a live webcast recording in the Broadcast Corner (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,42.msg505.html#msg505).

Cheers,
Maciek
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 06, 2007, 05:02:49 PM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

Symphony #3....just ask Haydn.

2.What are your favorite works by Beethoven?

Cello Sonatas-all
Middle String Quartets-all
Wind Chamber Music-all
Choral Fantasy (for Piano, Chorus, and Orchestra) Op. 80

Least favorite?

Wellington's Sieg/Victory Op. 91....I want to enjoy this, but it always seem to fall short within my "Beethoven standards".

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

Absolutely.

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

Cello Sonatas: Casals/Horszowski et al.
String Quartets: Végh String Quartet
Wind Chamber Music: Consortium Classicum
Choral Fantasy Op. 80: Harnoncourt/Chamber Orchestra of Europe (Piano-Aimard)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: hornteacher on April 06, 2007, 05:15:16 PM
Least favorite?

Wellington's Sieg/Victory Op. 91....I want to enjoy this, but it always seem to fall short within my "Beethoven standards".

I agree, and its interesting to read about how popular that piece was at the time of its composition.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Holden on April 07, 2007, 01:32:09 PM
When I started to learn the piano as a youngster I discovered Beethoven and fell in love with this man's music. My first classical recording was the ubiquitous Pathetique/Moonlight/Appassionata combination played by Kempff (mono) and bought for me by my parents as a Xmas present. I then joined World Record Club (lied about my age) and my second recording was the first two Op 2 sonatas coupled with the G minor Fanatsy - is this unique? Whether it is or not, it amply demonstrated my fascination with LvB's piano works. From there I moved on and had soon collected most of the major genres - piano sonatas, piano concertos, symphonies, overtures, - even the complete string quartets - though I hardly ever played them. These were all LPs and most came through the sadly departed World Record Club.

I had piano sonata recordings by Schnabel, Solomon, Gilels and Barenboim. I had the justifiably famous 4th concerto from Gilels/Ludwig. My symphony cycle was the Cluytens/BPO - not a bad place to start and I was still a teenager! I didn't get these because I was an aficionado but because it was what WRC offered. However, I believe that this helped me become more judgemental regarding the quality of recordings.

I still struggle with some of the string quartets and I've never found a recording of the Missa Solemnis that has really 'done it' for me despite my enjoyment of the sacred music of Verdi, Rossini, Cherubini, Mozart et al.

But even after 40 odd years of listening to and acquiring more and more classsical music Beethoven has always been and will always be my numero uno composer.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 07, 2007, 01:39:10 PM

Great story, Holden.

Check your PM?  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mozart on April 07, 2007, 01:48:18 PM
Quote
Hi, I'm a newbie, and this is my first thread (first post, actually).  So please, everyone feel free to respond.
Hello Noob
Quote
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?
#rd symphony
Quote
2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?
&th symphony

late string quartets
Quote
3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?
Duh.
Quote
4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?
Karajan 1963

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: marvinbrown on April 08, 2007, 03:14:51 PM
Hi, I'm a newbie, and this is my first thread (first post, actually).  So please, everyone feel free to respond.

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?
    In my opinion Beethoven's greatest achievement is pushing music from the Classical era to the Romantic era.  He ushered in the Romantic Era.  Whether it is the symphonies or piano sonatas or piano concertos you can actually hear the transition from classical to romantic or early romatic .  In that regard he was revolutionary.  I also believe that he made orchestral music (nonvocal or music that is not based on literary text) significant.   

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?
 
    Easily the 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th symphonies, Piano Concerto No.5 (Emperor) any piano sonata with a name (ie Moonlight, Les adieux, Pathetique tempest etc.)  Least Favorite: perhaps Fidilio 

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?
    No not really, you do not need to be deaf to be emotional...look at Wagner.

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

     Yes: Symohonies cycle Karajan 1963, Piano Sonatas: Gulda

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 03:29:26 PM
Hi, I'm a newbie, and this is my first thread (first post, actually).  So please, everyone feel free to respond.

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

I think that Beethoven's greatest achievement was in forming a presenting a role model for composers after him on how to be a proper tortured soul, and to work towards composing things with their own standards of perfection in mind instead of someone else's (a patron, the Church, whatever).  His works with the longest-lasting influence have clearly been the symphonies from 3-9, although the Late Quartets ran at the back of the pack before making a last second dash with a furlong left to go, and were more influential later. That says a lot about them, I think.

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

Well, the 3rd & 9th symphonies in about a dead heat. I don't have a least favorite, I view each in context and am quite content with them the way they are. Beethoven knew what he was doing far better than I do.


3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

Probably less than people tend to give them the weight for. I think the bigger issues of the day (Napoleon, politics in Vienna, the Fall of the Aristocracy &c) probably lent at least as much if not more. 

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

Savall's 3rd, Gardiner's 9th, Arrau's 4th Concerto, Perlman/Giulini's Violin Concerto, Kempff's "Pathetique", L'Archibudelli's String Trios, Fischer-Dieskau's "An die ferne Geliebte"... dozens more. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 08, 2007, 03:37:32 PM

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

Savall's 3rd, Gardiner's 9th, Arrau's 4th Concerto, Perlman/Giulini's Violin Concerto, Kempff's "Pathetique", L'Archibudelli's String Trios, Fischer-Dieskau's "An die ferne Geliebte"... dozens more. :)

8)

I enjoyed reading your post, Gurn!  :)

Which Arrau 4th? I have the Haitink and love it! 

Also, which Kempff Pathetique? I prefer the Stereo myself, but like many others more. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 03:59:22 PM
I enjoyed reading your post, Gurn!  :)

Which Arrau 4th? I have the Haitink and love it! 

Also, which Kempff Pathetique? I prefer the Stereo myself, but like many others more. 

Thanks, George.

It's the Staatskapelle Dresden / Colin Davis. I love the way Arrau hits it right from the start. He's a pretty fair pianist. :D

I have the stereo Kempff too, So yes, that one. Kempff is one of my favorite pianists, all in all. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 08, 2007, 04:04:48 PM
Thanks, George.

It's the Staatskapelle Dresden / Colin Davis. I love the way Arrau hits it right from the start. He's a pretty fair pianist. :D

I have the stereo Kempff too, So yes, that one. Kempff is one of my favorite pianists, all in all. :)

8)

You may recall this Gurn, and possibly yourself George, that about a year and half ago here at GMG Kempff was getting all sorts of "run" from many here, including myself.  However, of late, he has almost left the radar screen.  Good to see him back on as he is still my favorite when it comes to Beethoven's Sonatas. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 04:09:37 PM
You may recall this Gurn, and possibly yourself George, that about a year and half ago here at GMG Kempff was getting all sorts of "run" from many here, including myself.  However, of late, he has almost left the radar screen.  Good to see him back on as he is still my favorite when it comes to Beethoven Sonatas. 

Yes, I do remember that Bill. But my philosophy is to like what I like and let others like what they like, so I didn't (and don't) particularly care about it. I think Kempff was among the top pianists of his generation, so I'm going to like him no matter what. :D 

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 08, 2007, 04:14:40 PM
Yes, I do remember that Bill. But my philosophy is to like what I like and let others like what they like, so I didn't (and don't) particularly care about it. I think Kempff was among the top pianists of his generation, so I'm going to like him no matter what. :D 

8)

Absolutely.  As David Ross once concluded with a post:

If you like him, what difference does it make whether 10% or 90% share your tastes?

Some people like muscle cars, some prefer luxury sedans, some like sports cars, and others just want economical transportation.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 04:16:30 PM
Absolutely.  As David Ross once concluded with a post:

If you like him, what difference does it make whether 10% or 90% share your tastes?

Some people like muscle cars, some prefer luxury sedans, some like sports cars, and others just want economical transportation.


A wise man, David Ross. And of course, I judge wisdom by the extent to which people share my opinions.... ;D

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 08, 2007, 04:43:35 PM
I have the stereo Kempff too, So yes, that one. Kempff is one of my favorite pianists, all in all. :)
8)

I particularly like his Schumann, though I find his Beethoven uneven, the high points are so high that its totally worth it.

Like the Pastoral Sonata and Op. 78-111. Superb!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2007, 05:10:12 PM
I particularly like his Schumann, though I find his Beethoven uneven, the high points are so high that its totally worth it.

Like the Pastoral Sonata and Op. 78-111. Superb!  :)

Yes, I really like his Schumann too. That 4 disk box is a really nice one, lots of good stuff on there!  :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 08, 2007, 05:13:08 PM
Yes, I really like his Schumann too. That 4 disk box is a really nice one, lots of good stuff on there!  :)

8)

I bet its great, I actually only have Kriesleriana, Fantasy in C and Arabeske.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: lukeottevanger on April 08, 2007, 11:54:03 PM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

I think that Beethoven's greatest achievement was in forming a presenting a role model for composers after him on how to be a proper tortured soul, and to work towards composing things with their own standards of perfection in mind instead of someone else's (a patron, the Church, whatever).  His works with the longest-lasting influence have clearly been the symphonies from 3-9, although the Late Quartets ran at the back of the pack before making a last second dash with a furlong left to go, and were more influential later. That says a lot about them, I think.

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

Well, the 3rd & 9th symphonies in about a dead heat. I don't have a least favorite, I view each in context and am quite content with them the way they are. Beethoven knew what he was doing far better than I do.


3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

Probably less than people tend to give them the weight for. I think the bigger issues of the day (Napoleon, politics in Vienna, the Fall of the Aristocracy &c) probably lent at least as much if not more. 

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

Savall's 3rd, Gardiner's 9th, Arrau's 4th Concerto, Perlman/Giulini's Violin Concerto, Kempff's "Pathetique", L'Archibudelli's String Trios, Fischer-Dieskau's "An die ferne Geliebte"... dozens more. :)

8)

Gurn, this is a great and very perceptive post. Your #1 is really very important, I think, as is your #3. And I approve of the sentiment of your #2.

As for #4, the one single Beethoven set I spin more than any other is that old standby - the Busch Quartet in op 127, 130-3 and 135 (sorry to be unimaginative).I've recently got hold of their Rasumovskys 1 and 2, and I can see that one joining the bunch also, though the playing is a little less accurate, I think.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 09, 2007, 02:31:30 AM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

I think that Beethoven's greatest achievement was in forming a presenting a role model for composers after him on how to be a proper tortured soul, and to work towards composing things with their own standards of perfection in mind instead of someone else's (a patron, the Church, whatever). 

Late Mozart was also an independent-minded tortured soul . . . . . and may have served as a role model to Beethoven . . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: edward on April 09, 2007, 12:35:26 PM
I think one thing that often gets missed out in discussing Beethoven is just how witty a composer he was. Not knock-down laugh-out-loud, but those sudden sforzandi and unexpected hiatuses keep the listener deliciously off-balance.

As for his greatest compositional achievements, the late piano sonatas and quartets, of course. But I can't help but also include the transition between the last two movements in the 5th symphony...a passage that always reminds me of Busoni's dictum (I don't remember it literally, but it's something like "Any fool can write great melodies and dramatic climaxes, but true greatness comes in the transitions.")
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 09, 2007, 01:09:22 PM
For those interested in the latest information on HIP Beethoven recordings, visit this sizzling thread. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,145.0/topicseen.html)

(http://www.b12partners.net/mt/images/beethoven.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2007, 02:56:02 PM
Gurn, this is a great and very perceptive post. Your #1 is really very important, I think, as is your #3. And I approve of the sentiment of your #2.

As for #4, the one single Beethoven set I spin more than any other is that old standby - the Busch Quartet in op 127, 130-3 and 135 (sorry to be unimaginative).I've recently got hold of their Rasumovskys 1 and 2, and I can see that one joining the bunch also, though the playing is a little less accurate, I think.

Thanks, Luke. I was trying to look at the bigger picture than just whether people tried to emulate his composing style, of course they did. :)

Well, I have 2 complete sets of the SQ's (Tokyo and Medici) and just a whole lot of "Early" and "Middle" and "Late" and even several singles, and I just couldn't single out one performance or quartet that I preferred above all others. :D  Even though I dislike old-timey recordings (sorry), I do have some Brahms by the Busch 4tet, and it is excellent. They are hard to match among today's crop.

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2007, 03:03:34 PM
Late Mozart was also an independent-minded tortured soul . . . . . and may have served as a role model to Beethoven . . . . .

d minor,

But you are not discriminating between what we know now and what was believed about Mozart, even when he was still alive. He was, indeed, an independent-minded, tortured soul. But no one knew or believed that, not until the relatively late 20th century were many of the myths surrounding Mozart dispelled. Ones like "He was Divinely inspired, all he did was hold the pen and it was like automatic writing" and "he was a drunken, whoring playboy who was so gifted that it didn't stop him from writing beautiful music anyway", and lots of others too. And don't forget, he was a lightweight, rococo tunesmith too. ::) 

Beethoven was the archetype of the tortured artist, each note squeezed from the pen only after hours or days of frenzied thought, crossing out, tearing up &c &c &c. In its own way, this picture is just as wrong as Mozart's. But it was perfect for the Romantic sensibility all around him. Add Schubert to the mix, and this was indeed the Age of Tortured Artists... :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Lady Chatterley on April 09, 2007, 03:23:13 PM
d minor,

But you are not discriminating between what we know now and what was believed about Mozart, even when he was still alive. He was, indeed, an independent-minded, tortured soul. But no one knew or believed that, not until the relatively late 20th century were many of the myths surrounding Mozart dispelled. Ones like "He was Divinely inspired, all he did was hold the pen and it was like automatic writing" and "he was a drunken, whoring playboy who was so gifted that it didn't stop him from writing beautiful music anyway", and lots of others too. And don't forget, he was a lightweight, rococo tunesmith too. ::) 

Beethoven was the archetype of the tortured artist, each note squeezed from the pen only after hours or days of frenzied thought, crossing out, tearing up &c &c &c. In its own way, this picture is just as wrong as Mozart's. But it was perfect for the Romantic sensibility hhall around him. Add Schubert to the mix, and this was indeed the Age of Tortured Artists... :)

8)

Did Beethoven have celiac disease?That's torture enough for anyone.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 09, 2007, 04:15:34 PM
Did Beethoven have celiac disease?That's torture enough for anyone.

Not sure, but I do know that he had "asshole for a father" disease. That one sucks! I've got it, I should know. No cure either.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2007, 04:17:52 PM
Did Beethoven have celiac disease?That's torture enough for anyone.

He certainly had some intestinal problem, and it was chronic. He complained about constant diarrhea for the later 2/3's of his life. I never heard a diagnosis, but celiac disease is as close a one as any. :(

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Lady Chatterley on April 09, 2007, 04:53:29 PM
Perhaps it was peptic ulcers?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2007, 05:06:58 PM
Perhaps it was peptic ulcers?

Any other symptoms support that?  More likely, it was too much wine. ;)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 09, 2007, 07:19:02 PM
I think one thing that often gets missed out in discussing Beethoven is just how witty a composer he was. Not knock-down laugh-out-loud, but those sudden sforzandi and unexpected hiatuses keep the listener deliciously off-balance.

This is a great point.

On top of all that musical "heroism" there's the forgotten side of Beethoven: Beethoven the trickster. It may be tougher to track down than the grand gestures but once inside the music the wit becomes quite apparent. In fact, it's what draws me to Beethoven most.

So who needs "fate" in Beethoven? Not when there's all that wit!




 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Lady Chatterley on April 11, 2007, 08:39:26 AM
Any other symptoms support that?  More likely, it was too much wine. ;)

8)

 Yes I think so,he suffered tummy trouble often before he ate,H.Pylori loves an empty stomach.Too much wine is a disaster for folks with gastritis!Beethoven drank beer too but it was small beer.Everyone drank it,even children.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on April 11, 2007, 08:53:55 AM
A wise man, David Ross. And of course, I judge wisdom by the extent to which people share my opinions.... ;D

8)

Agreed  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 09:48:32 AM
My favourite Beethoven work is the Grosse Fugue. It makes me think of a journey of a tortured soul: maybe like in the Divine Comedy: from the depths of the Inferno, up towards the glorious heights of Paradiso. The isn't too long either. It develops, says what it wants to say, and has done with it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 13, 2007, 11:49:19 AM
My favourite Beethoven work is the Grosse Fugue. It makes me think of a journey of a tortured soul: maybe like in the Divine Comedy: from the depths of the Inferno, up towards the glorious heights of Paradiso. The isn't too long either. It develops, says what it wants to say, and has done with it.

Was listening to the Große Fuge just this morning . . . . . . My appreciation for it grows with each successive listen . . . . . .  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 11:53:44 AM
I know! It's the same with me. As fugues go, the only one that immediately pops into my head besides it is the Contrapunctus 14 from The Art of Fugue. Although, I'm sure there are many other great fugues.

D Minor, I suppose then that you have a great appreciation for the rest of Beethoven's quartets?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Brewski on April 13, 2007, 11:54:48 AM
I agree: great piece.  One favorite version is on this CD by the Arditti Quartet, and I find it interesting that they include it with recordings of Xenakis, Ruth Crawford Seeger, Nancarrow and Roger Reynolds.  The late Beethoven quartets still sound incredibly modern.

--Bruce

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00000321W.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 13, 2007, 12:00:10 PM
D Minor, I suppose then that you have a great appreciation for the rest of Beethoven's quartets?

Yes, the Late SQs especially . . . . . . .

I find it interesting that they include it with recordings of Xenakis, Ruth Crawford Seeger, Nancarrow and Roger Reynolds.  The late Beethoven quartets still sound incredibly modern.

Very interesting :D  Yeah, possibly Beethoven's most "modern sounding" music . . . . . . .  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Don Giovanni on April 13, 2007, 12:02:01 PM
I agree: great piece.  One favorite version is on this CD by the Arditti Quartet, and I find it interesting that they include it with recordings of Xenakis, Ruth Crawford Seeger, Nancarrow and Roger Reynolds.  The late Beethoven quartets still sound incredibly modern.

--Bruce

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00000321W.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)


I was just thinking that today when I was listening to Op. 135. Of course, nowhere near as modern as Xenakis or Ligeti's chamber work but still very ahead of its time in many ways.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2007, 10:32:16 AM
d minor,

But you are not discriminating between what we know now and what was believed about Mozart, even when he was still alive. He was, indeed, an independent-minded, tortured soul. But no one knew or believed that, not until the relatively late 20th century were many of the myths surrounding Mozart dispelled. Ones like "He was Divinely inspired, all he did was hold the pen and it was like automatic writing" and "he was a drunken, whoring playboy who was so gifted that it didn't stop him from writing beautiful music anyway", and lots of others too. And don't forget, he was a lightweight, rococo tunesmith too. ::) 

Beethoven was the archetype of the tortured artist, each note squeezed from the pen only after hours or days of frenzied thought, crossing out, tearing up &c &c &c. In its own way, this picture is just as wrong as Mozart's. But it was perfect for the Romantic sensibility all around him. Add Schubert to the mix, and this was indeed the Age of Tortured Artists... :)

8)

Gurn,  

How do you know what Beethoven's "perception" was regarding Mozart's struggles in life?  For example, Beethoven must have known that Mozart's brilliant operas were vastly under appreciated in Europe during Mozart's lifetime, and must have known (artist-to-artist) that Mozart felt deeply hurt and saddened by this lack of appreciation.   :'(  Mozart was tortured, and Beethoven (and other artists) may have empathised with that.

Beethoven probably knew that Mozart died in poverty, and could infer that Mozart suffered from serious financial and health issues during the final years of his life.

Of course, today, we now know that during Mozart's mature life, he struggled a great deal (e.g., in addition to his health & financial problems, we know that he tirelessly edited and reedited his compositions . . . . . etc).  Beethoven, Schubert, and others may have been aware of Mozart's struggles . . . . . . or maybe not (how can we know?) . . . . . .

And surely Mozart's independent-mindedness was very well known to LvB . . . . . . .  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2007, 10:38:12 AM
Added to the opening post:

(http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/bilder/en/portal/kollage_03_koepfe.jpg)

Beethoven Resources:

 The Grove Concise Dictionary of Music  (http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/beethoven.html)

Beethoven Haus Bonn  (http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php//portal_en)

 LVBEETHOVEN.COM  (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Bio/BiographyLudwig.html)

 Raptus Association for Music Appreciation site on Beethoven  (http://www.raptusassociation.org/)

 Beethoven the Immortal  (http://www.lucare.com/immortal/)

 The Beethoven Reference Site  (http://www.gyrix.com/forums/index.php)

 One Stop Beethoven Resource  (http://classicalmusic.about.com/od/onestopbeethoven/Your_OneStop_Beethoven_Resource.htm)

 All About LvB  (http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/symphony9.html)

Edit:

 Beethoven Forum (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Forum/list.php?3)


If any of you good GMG citizens are aware of other excellent links, please advise . . . . . .

Thanks,


--D Minor
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 18, 2007, 10:56:58 AM

An entire forum dedicated to the music of Beethoven:


 Beethoven Forum (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Forum/list.php?3)


(I am Annie Fischer there)


(Thanks to donwyn for tech support)  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2007, 11:09:21 AM
An entire forum dedicated to the music of Beethoven:


 Beethoven Forum (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Forum/list.php?3)


(I am Annie Fischer there)


(Thanks to donwyn for tech support)  :)

Thanks, Annie!  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 18, 2007, 11:23:23 AM
Thanks, Annie!  8)

 :-*
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: op.110 on April 18, 2007, 01:48:15 PM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?
          Greatest achievements... (not in any particular order)
          Piano Sonata No. 31 op 110
          Violin Concerto
          Piano Concerto No. 5
          The Appassionata Piano Sonata
          Symphony No. 9
          Symphony No. 7
          Symphony No. 5
          Symphony No. 3
          Quartet Op. 131
          Quartet Op. 127
          Ghost Trio
          Triple Concerto

           The Ninth would be the "most 'influential'"



2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?
          All of the forementioned works
         
          I really don't have a least favorite work.

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?
          A question that requires a lengthy explaination; I would read Maynard Solomon's BEETHOVEN; Solomon does a good job, I think, of trying to analyze the psyche of Beethoven. A sometimes dull, but interesting read.

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?
         I will post more on this later, but right now I must go to my University's Orchestra rehearsal.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2007, 03:23:55 PM
Gurn,  

How do you know what Beethoven's "perception" was regarding Mozart's struggles in life?  For example, Beethoven must have known that Mozart's brilliant operas were vastly under appreciated in Europe during Mozart's lifetime, and must have known (artist-to-artist) that Mozart felt deeply hurt and saddened by this lack of appreciation.   :'(  Mozart was tortured, and Beethoven (and other artists) may have empathised with that.

Beethoven probably knew that Mozart died in poverty, and could infer that Mozart suffered from serious financial and health issues during the final years of his life.

Of course, today, we now know that during Mozart's mature life, he struggled a great deal (e.g., in addition to his health & financial problems, we know that he tirelessly edited and reedited his compositions . . . . . etc).  Beethoven, Schubert, and others may have been aware of Mozart's struggles . . . . . . or maybe not (how can we know?) . . . . . .

And surely Mozart's independent-mindedness was very well known to LvB . . . . . . .  :)

d minor,
Well, his perceptions were just what everyone else's were at the time. He didn't have any special knowledge beyond what may have come from conversing with Haydn. They were influenced primarily by the writings of the time (Niemetschek (sp) and Rochlitz), and by his own perceptions of the music. He thought the music was very special, but he also thought Mozart to be a very risque and less than moral man (his comments on Don Giovanni being totally unworthy of being an opera because of its immorality, for example). Specifically about the operas, he thought the music was far better than the operas themselves, so I don't know if he would have felt they were underperformed. Perhaps the opposite?

In any case, other than the perception that Mozart was impoverished, there was little if any conception that he was a suffering person. Not in the 19th century. And it has always generally believed (still is by some) that he was impoverished from spending huge sums on fripperies and gambling. Not that he was generally poor, simply that he was wasteful among plenty. He wasn't, actually, particularly wasteful OR poor. He was viewed as a poor businessman, not poor financially except by his own mismanagement.

And the truth about how hard he worked at composing didn't come out for nearly 150 years after his death, in good part because Constanze destroyed all his sketches and notes, and all that were left were fair copies. The myth was born that THEY were his original sketches, that he just sat and wrote them just as they were.

No, I think we CAN know that they didn't. There is no current publication from the time that gives the straight facts. The embellishments began with the first obituaries and continued unchecked. Constanze didn't even tell all the truth to Nissen (or he didn't publish it) in order to protect Mozart's legacy. In any case, the original concept that Mozart could have served as a role model in the same way that Beethoven did is not likely at all: at the very least, the few people who knew the truth weren't giving it up. And history bears out that he didn't serve as a role model in that way. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2007, 05:55:10 PM
d minor,

In any case, the original concept that Mozart could have served as a role model in the same way that Beethoven did is not likely at all: at the very least, the few people who knew the truth weren't giving it up. And history bears out that he didn't serve as a role model in that way. :)

Gurn,

Excellent reply . . . . . Thank you!

Perhaps "role model" is not the correct term, but Mozart certainly served as a shining example of a composer who remained largely independent (i.e., not tied to the church (Bach) or royalty (Esterhazy)) while supporting himself and his family primarily with income derived from hard-earned compositional efforts.  More importantly, in large part, Mozart composed for the sake of composing, not for pleasing a particular client.  His final three symphonies, for example, were not commissioned (apparently, Mozart composed them hoping for future performances, which never materialized during his lifetime).

Assuming that Beethoven had basic information about Mozart's life, Beethoven likely could empathize with Mozart's struggles as an independent, freethinking musical genius.  Moreso than he could empathize with Handel, Bach or Haydn.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2007, 06:01:50 PM
Not that he was generally poor, simply that he was wasteful among plenty. He wasn't, actually, particularly wasteful OR poor. He was viewed as a poor businessman, not poor financially except by his own mismanagement.

As to Mozart's financial condition, I agree that outwardly he appeared to be successful, although he was forced to move into smaller quarters towards the end, and his ill-health hindered his ability to support his family . . . . . . such that he was compelled to borrow money from Michael Puchberg . . . . . . .

Still, wasn't it common knowledge that Mozart was buried in a mass grave among paupers ?. . . . . .

But you are correct that the nature and extent of Mozart's struggles was unknown at the time.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bunny on April 19, 2007, 12:17:46 AM
As to Mozart's financial condition, I agree that outwardly he appeared to be successful, although he was forced to move into smaller quarters towards the end, and his ill-health hindered his ability to support his family . . . . . . such that he was compelled to borrow money from Michael Puchberg . . . . . . .

Still, wasn't it common knowledge that Mozart was buried in a mass grave among paupers ?. . . . . .


But you are correct that the nature and extent of Mozart's struggles was unknown at the time.



I think it is a myth that Mozart was impoverished at the time of his death.  He had the stature of a rock star in Vienna during his lifetime and commensurate earnings.  He could have easily generated more wealth had he survived longer.  If I had to describe his financial condition at the time of his death, I would say that he had a bit of a cash flow problem necessitating some retrenchment.  he certainly was far from bankrupt or "impoverished." In an age when the wealthy lived on credit (bills could go years unpaid -- only gambling debts demanded immediate payment), Mozart was relatively solvent. 

As for the pauper's grave, that was a misconception of later generations.  The arrangements for Mozart's funeral and burial were actually made by Baron von Swieten in accordance with the regulations in force (of the Emperor Joseph II) demanding a simple and hygienic burial (ie. speedy) and he chose the most economical burial available.  There was a simple ceremony in a side chapel of St. Stephen's Cathedral attended by von Swieten, Constanze, and her family.  Afterwards,  Mozart was interred in a cemetery in the village of St. Marx on the outskirts of Vienna.  Btw, the grave was described at the time not as a pauper's grave, but as a "normal simple grave." 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 19, 2007, 09:05:36 AM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?
          Greatest achievements... (not in any particular order)
          Piano Sonata No. 31 op 110
          Violin Concerto
          Piano Concerto No. 5
          The Appassionata Piano Sonata
          Symphony No. 9
          Symphony No. 7
          Symphony No. 5
          Symphony No. 3
          Quartet Op. 131
          Quartet Op. 127
          Ghost Trio
          Triple Concerto

           The Ninth would be the "most 'influential'"

Great list (which closely coincides with my own)!   8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 19, 2007, 09:07:09 AM
          Piano Sonata No. 31 op 110

Op. 110 is probably my 2nd fave; the Hammerklavier (esp. the final movement) remains my top spot, though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 19, 2007, 09:16:41 AM
          Violin Concerto

Probably the most influential violin concerto ever composed!  Brahms soaked it up.  I'm considering this 1960 stereo re-release (Yehudi Menuhin's legendary 1953 recording with Wilhlem Furtwangler is another great one) . . . . .


(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NW6FKW22L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: quintett op.57 on April 19, 2007, 01:31:50 PM
Quote
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements? 
No opinion

Quote
Most "influential" works?
Middle & late quartets.     

Quote
2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?
      Last sonata - Kreutzer sonata - trio after Sy2 - 14th quartet
         I really don't have a least favorite work.

Quote
3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?
      probably

Quote
4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?
      love the Italiano and Juilliard. I still don't have many performers
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 20, 2007, 07:38:18 AM
My all time fave Beethoven work hands down is the 4th Piano Concerto.

Do you have a favorite recording of the 4th Piano Concerto?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 20, 2007, 12:03:01 PM
Arrau/Haitink

I like your style, James. That one is also my very favorite.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: op.110 on April 25, 2007, 05:10:45 PM
Probably the most influential violin concerto ever composed!  Brahms soaked it up.  I'm considering this 1960 stereo re-release (Yehudi Menuhin's legendary 1953 recording with Wilhlem Furtwangler is another great one) . . . . .


(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NW6FKW22L._SS500_.jpg)

Haven't heard that recording, but Kyung Wha Chung's recording on Decca?? is one of my favorites.

I agree with the violin concerto being one of Beethoven's most influential works. Not only Brahms, but all other Violin Concertos have taken from Beethoven's one way or another.

My favorite Brahms VC recording is Oistrakh's, what about you, D minor?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 25, 2007, 06:15:15 PM
Haven't heard that recording, but Kyung Wha Chung's recording on Decca?? is one of my favorites.

Chung has two - one on Decca (forget conductor) and a later one on EMI with Tennstedt leading the Concertgebouw.

Haven't heard the Decca but the EMI is a personal fave.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on April 25, 2007, 06:18:42 PM

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?
I think his music, and then followed closely by his hair style. >:D

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?
His symphonies and string quartets are among my favorites, and my least favorites are his lieder.
 
3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?
No, I think that it was the exactly sixty coffee beans that he used in his morning coffee was the most important contributing factor to the emotional content of his music, and also his absurd outbursts of rage. ;D

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas?
Blomstedt, Kempff.


5. Do you consider Beethoven to be a "classical" (classical era) or "romantic" (romantic era) composer?
It's just a label, certainly there are better things to do than argue about a label?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on April 25, 2007, 06:19:51 PM
I see we have put the same piece as top, but possibly next I would have to have the first of the middle period string quartets. I have the Quartet Italiano unfurling that staggering melody that opens the first movement.

Mike

I love that melody! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 25, 2007, 06:23:43 PM

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?
I think his music, and then followed closely by his hair style. >:D

So can we trace the influence of Beethoven's hair style on later generations? ;D




Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on April 25, 2007, 06:38:26 PM
So can we trace the influence of Beethoven's hair style on later generations? ;D

That was when Beethoven scholars finally realized that they need to transition to a more fast paced field of study. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 25, 2007, 07:56:00 PM



4.  Piano Sonatas?
Kempff.


Stereo of mono David, as I have forgotten your preference here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: val on April 26, 2007, 12:23:51 AM
Quote
D Minor

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

Anserwing also as a newbie: greatest achievements: the 32 piano Sonatas, the Quartets from the opus 59/1 to the opus 135, Missa Solemnis. Most influential work: the Symphonies.

Quote
2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

Favorites: Piano Sonatas opus 2/3, 10/3, 13, 28, 31/2, 53, 90, 106, 109, 110, 111. Diabelli Variations. 3rd cello Sonata. Trio opus 97. String Quartets opus 59/1 and 2, 95, 127, 130, 131, 132. Symphonies 3, 4, 5, 7, 8 and 9. 4th Piano Concerto and violin concerto. Overtures Coreolano and Egmont. Missa Solemnis. An die ferne Geliebte.

Least favorite: Wellington Victory, 5th piano concerto, Gellert Lieder, piano Sonata opus 54.

Quote
3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

No.

Quote
4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

Piano Sonatas: opus 2/1 Arrau, 2/2 Brendel (VOX), 2/3 (Richter), 7 (Michelangeli), 10/1 Brendel, 10/2 Arrau, 10/3 Schnabel, 13 Serkin, 14/1 and 2 Schnabel, 22 (Arrau), 26 (Backhaus), 27/1 (Kempff), 27/2 (Serkin), 28 (Backhaus), 31/1 and 2 Gulda, 31/3 Kempff, 49/1 and 2 Gulda, 53 Arrau, 54 Backhaus, 57 Backhaus, 78 Kempff, 79 Gulda, 81A Serkin, 90 Solomon, 101 Arrau, 106 Gilels, 109 Serkin, 110 and 111 Gulda.
Diabelli Variations: Brendel.

Quartets opus 18 (Italiano Quartet), opus 59/1 and 3 (Lindsays), opus 59/2 Janacek, opus 74 (Italiano), opus 95 (Artemis), opus 127 (Italiano), opus 130 (Juilliard), opus 131 (Vegh or Italiano), opus 132 (Italiano) opus 135 (Busch).

Trio opus 97: Istomin, Stern, Rose.

Symphonies: 1, Toscanini, 2 Monteux, 3 Toscanini, 4 Walter, 5 Karajan, 6 Furtwängler, 7 Monteux, 8 Karajan, 9 Furtwängler.

Piano Conceros: 1 and 2, Serkin/Ormandy, 3 Arrau/Haitink, 4 Gilels/Ludwig, 5 Kempff/van Kempen

Violin Concerto: Grumiaux/van Beinum.

Overtures: Karajan BPO.

Missa Solemnis, Klemperer. The Missa opus 86 by Gardiner.

Lieder, Fischer-Dieskau, Moore.

Fidelio: Ludwig, Vickers, Klemperer.

Quote
5. Do you consider Beethoven to be a "classical" (classical era) or "romantic" (romantic era) composer?

I consider Beethoven the greatest musician in History.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on April 26, 2007, 11:16:35 AM
Stereo of mono David, as I have forgotten your preference here.

Mono is a bit better.  The piano sound is more natural and the playing more passionate. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 26, 2007, 11:21:25 AM
Mono is a bit better.  The piano sound is more natural and the playing more passionate. :)

Indeed it is Bogey Bill!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 26, 2007, 05:42:55 PM
Indeed it is Bogey Bill!  :)

What the............................?  Oh.  So, the question is now for me spend toward finishing Schnabel on the Pearl label, or hit the Kempff mono set?  And do not say, "Both!" George, I get that enough from Harry! ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 26, 2007, 06:04:12 PM
What the............................?  Oh.  So, the question is now for me spend toward finishing Schnabel on the Pearl label, or hit the Kempff mono set?  And do not say, "Both!" George, I get that enough from Harry! ;D

No, I wouldn't do that to you buddy. My comparision of the stereo and mono in the late works has them split down the middle, so I really don't think you have anything to worry about. Then again, Kempff isn't one of my very favorites, so I am probably the wrong guy to speak with about this one.


Here's a quote from "The Recordings of Beethoven: as viewed by the critics from High Fidelity:"

"If pressed for a choice, I would urge aqusition of Kempff I [mono.] These older performances may have more ups and downs than the later readings, but the ups are higher and the engineering has more solidity and impact. Kempff II [stereo] has the advantage of stereophony, ready availability and a separate disc format."


Another from The Third Ear Guide to Classical:

"Most connisseurs opt for the earlier set, finding it fresher and more involving. It's indeed special, but so is the later set."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on April 27, 2007, 03:46:24 AM
As fugues go, the only one that immediately pops into my head besides it is the Contrapunctus 14 from The Art of Fugue. Although, I'm sure there are many other great fugues.




I actually happen to like a performance of the Grosse Fuge that most don't: the Emersons! Plenty of energy...maybe a bit too much for alot of people. Love the Takacs and the Vegh as well (probably the Vegh best these days, George converted me).


I'm very weird, when I think fugue, for some reason the finale of the "Jupiter" springs up (even though I don't think it's at all a "proper fugue".)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 03:47:19 AM
Rest easy, Andy, nothing weird about that!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on April 27, 2007, 03:53:24 AM

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?
Anything after 1801.         

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

          Op. 132. In my opinion, there's never been anything approaching the "Hymn of Gratitude".

That, and Mozart's "Jupiter", have for me never been eclipsed.
         
          Least favorite: The Wellington "thing".  And though many resent me for this, I STILL don't "get" the 3rd movement of the 9th Symphony.

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?         Same as with practically any great artist.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on April 27, 2007, 03:57:48 AM
Probably the most influential violin concerto ever composed!  Brahms soaked it up.  I'm considering this 1960 stereo re-release (Yehudi Menuhin's legendary 1953 recording with Wilhlem Furtwangler is another great one) . . . . .


(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NW6FKW22L._SS500_.jpg)





I love this recording!

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 04:01:43 AM
Probably the most influential violin concerto ever composed!

Paging Gurn, white courtesy telephone, please!

OTOH, this is his Bistro.

Gurn, cancel that engagement for a second opinion  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 27, 2007, 07:21:26 AM
Haven't heard that recording, but Kyung Wha Chung's recording on Decca?? is one of my favorites.

I agree with the violin concerto being one of Beethoven's most influential works. Not only Brahms, but all other Violin Concertos have taken from Beethoven's one way or another.

My favorite Brahms VC recording is Oistrakh's, what about you, D minor?

Chung's is easily among the best modern recordings.  In addition to Menuhin / Furtwangler (1953 mono), some stereo recordings for the Beethoven VC that come to mind as being first-rate:

Stern / Barenboim / NYPO (1975)
Stern / Bernstein / NYPO (stereo)
Oistrakh/Cluytens/ Orchestre National de la Radiodiffusion Francaise (1958 stereo)
Chung / Tennstedt / Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra (1992 stereo / EMI)
Perlman / Giulini (1980 stereo)
Heifetz / Munch / Boston SO (1955 stereo)
Szeryng / Haitink / Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra (1973 stereo)
Schneiderhan / Jochum / BPO (1962 stereo / DG)
Francescatti / Walter / Columbia Sym Orch (stereo)
Grumiaux / C. Davis / Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam (1974 stereo / Philips)
Hahn / Zinman / Baltimore Symphony Orchestra (1998 stereo / Sony)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2007, 07:48:28 AM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?

Being a successful, self-employed musician; proving that a talented man didn't have to be some aristocrat's slave. Freedom, baby, freedom.


2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

Favorites I'll catalog below. Least favorite? Not applicable. I even enjoy Wellington's Victory. I'm a student of the Napoleonic Wars and this music references a famous battle; it's just good, mindless, noisy fun.


3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

I've read all the prior answers. The forum seems to be split. I think of certain composers, Havergal Brian for example: knowing nothing about the man, you'd never guess his 32nd Symphony was written by a 96-year-old man. No hint of nostalgia, bitterness, regret, or approaching death. It's confident, even swaggering. Brian did not go gently into that good night. I have to conclude his personal circumstances had little affect on his music. On the other hand, Pettersson's cruel early life and his crippling disease clearly had a major influence on his music. Brahms' circumstances near the end of his life (all his closest friends gone; family gone; the feeling that he was alone) can be heard in his late music.

Considering Beethoven, yes, I think his music probably was influenced by his personal trials and tribulations. I mean, even Muss es sein can be traced to a petty money matter and the Heiliger Dankgesang was inspired by his renewed health after a serious illness.


4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

Where to begin...even more troubling, where to end... ;D


Missa Solemnis - Klemperer/New Philharmonia

Symphony 1 - Klemperer/Phiharmonia

Symphony 2 - Szell/Cleveland

Symphony 3 - Bernstein/NY Phil

Symphony 4 - Kleiber/Bayerisches Staatsorchester

Symphony 5 - Szell/Concertgebouw

Symphóny 5 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Symphony 6 - Klemperer/Philharmonia

Symphony 7 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Symphony 8 - Norrington/London Classical Players

Symphony 8 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Symphony 9 - Norrington/London Classical Players

Symphony 9 - Dohnányi/Cleveland

Symphony 9 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Violin Concerto - Brüggen/Zehetmair/O 18th Century

Piano Concertos - Szell/Gilels/Cleveland

Piano Conertos 1 & 2 - Sinopoli/Argerich/Philharmonia

Piano Concerto 4 - Klemperer/Barenboim/New Philharmonia

Piano Concerto 4 - Masur/Grimaud/NY Phil

Piano Concerto 5 - Davis/Arrau/Dresden

Triple Concerto - Karajan/Richter/Oistrakh/Rostropovich/Berlin Phil

Fantasia C minor for Piano, Chorus and Orchetra - Salonen/Grimaud/Swedish Radio

Violin Sonatas - Mutter/Orkis

Cello Sonatas - Rostropovich/Richter

String Quintet C major Op.29 - Toyko SQ with Zukerman

String Quartets Op. 18 - Tokyo SQ

String Quartets Op.59/1, 2, 3 - Lindsay SQ

String Quartet Op.127 - Vegh SQ

String Quartet Op.130 - Budapest SQ (1933/34)

String Quartet Op.130 - Fitzwilliam SQ

String Quartet Op.131 - Vegh SQ

String Quartet Op.132 - Fitzwilliam SQ

String Quartet Op.135 - Emerson SQ

Grosse Fuge Op.133 - Hagen SQ

Piano Trio Op.97 "Archduke" - Ashkenazy, Perlman, Harrel

Piano Sonatas Op.2/1, 2, 3 - Gould

Piano Sonatas Op.10/1, 2, 3 - Pollini

Piano Sonata Op.13 "Pathétique" - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.27/2  "Moonlight" - Gould

Piano Sonata Op.31/2 "Tempest" - Grimaud

Piano Sonata Op.53 "Waldstein" - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.57 "Appassionata" - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.57 "Appassionata" - Pollini

Piano Sonata Op.57 "Appassionata Deconstruction" - Gould  ;D

Piano Sonata Op.78 "À Thérèse" - Gould

Piano Sonata Op.81a "Les Adieux" - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.101 - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.106 "Hammerklavier" - Gould (no joke)

Piano Sonata Op.109 - Grimaud

Piano Sonata Op.110 - Grimaud

Piano Sonata Op.111 - Pollini

Für Elise - Ugorski


Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 07:56:34 AM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?

Being a successful, self-employed musican; proving that a talented man didn't have to be some aristocrat's slave. Freedom, baby, freedom.

Isn't that the cruellest thing? He proved that it can be done, which makes it so much the more bitter for the many of us who are not so lucky.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 27, 2007, 08:56:04 AM

I stand sit in awe of your thoroughness, Sarge.

You earned this:

(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:v7uQGGmqK6luoM:http://www.mindef.gov.sg/army/gen_images/efficien.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2007, 09:04:01 AM
I stand sit in awe of your thoroughness, Sarge.

You earned this:

(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:v7uQGGmqK6luoM:http://www.mindef.gov.sg/army/gen_images/efficien.jpg)

Thank you, George...but why do I have the feeling I just wasted a day? ;D

No, seriously, I always appreciate an opportunity to think about music and which recordings I most enjoy. Of course I left out about 200 ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2007, 09:07:06 AM
Isn't that the cruellest thing? He proved that it can be done, which makes it so much the more bitter for the many of us who are not so lucky.

I sympathize, Karl. We're not living in a time that's terribly receptive to, or grateful, for, your talents. I really wish it weren't so.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 09:08:22 AM
No matter, Sarge;  I make music, because that is what I am fit for, whatever the state of the world around me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on April 27, 2007, 10:03:39 AM
Hey Bill since you're on an old recording kick-- have you heard Schnabel perform any of Beethoven's sonatas?  I think he's pretty good, what do you think?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mozart on April 27, 2007, 10:05:18 AM
Do you need to know about Beet's life and times to fully appreciate his music?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on April 27, 2007, 10:09:46 AM
Do you need to know about Beet's life and times to fully appreciate his music?

I don't think so.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 27, 2007, 10:46:42 AM
Great post, Sarge!

(http://www.myqt.co.uk/media/goldstar.jpg)

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?

Being a successful, self-employed musician; proving that a talented man didn't have to be some aristocrat's slave.  

Or a slave of the church . . . . . .

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on April 27, 2007, 11:29:29 AM
1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?

Being a successful, self-employed musician; proving that a talented man didn't have to be some aristocrat's slave. Freedom, baby, freedom.


2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

Favorites I'll catalog below. Least favorite? Not applicable. I even enjoy Wellington's Victory. I'm a student of the Napoleonic Wars and this music references a famous battle; it's just good, mindless, noisy fun.


3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

I've read all the prior answers. The forum seems to be split. I think of certain composers, Havergal Brian for example: knowing nothing about the man, you'd never guess his 32nd Symphony was written by a 96 year old man. No hint of nostalgia, bitterness, regret, or approaching death. It's confident, even swaggering. Brian did not go gently into that good night. I have to conclude his personal circumstances had little affect on his music. On the other hand, Pettersson's cruel early life and his crippling disease clearly had a major influence on his music. Brahms' circumstances near the end of his life (all his closest friends gone; family gone; the feeling that he was alone) can be heard in his late music.

Considering Beethoven, yes, I think his music probably was influenced by his personal trials and tribulations. I mean, even Muss es sein can be traced to a petty money matter and the Heiliger Dankgesang was inspired by his renewed health after a serious illness.


4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

Where to begin...even more troubling, where to end... ;D


Missa Solemnis - Klemperer/New Philharmonia

Symphony 1 - Klemperer/Phiharmonia

Symphony 2 - Szell/Cleveland

Symphony 3 - Bernstein/NY Phil

Symphony 4 - Kleiber/Bayerisches Staatsorchester

Symphony 5 - Szell/Concertgebouw

Symphóny 5 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Symphony 6 - Klemperer/Philharmonia

Symphony 7 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Symphony 8 - Norrington/London Classical Players

Symphony 8 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Symphony 9 - Norrington/London Classical Players

Symphony 9 - Dohnányi/Cleveland

Symphony 9 - Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin

Violin Concerto - Brüggen/Zehetmair/O 18th Century

Piano Concertos - Szell/Gilels/Cleveland

Piano Conertos 1 & 2 - Sinopoli/Argerich/Philharmonia

Piano Concerto 4 - Klemperer/Barenboim/New Philharmonia

Piano Concerto 4 - Masur/Grimaud/NY Phil

Piano Concerto 5 - Davis/Arrau/Dresden

Triple Concerto - Karajan/Richter/Oistrakh/Rostropovich/Berlin Phil

Fantasia C minor for Piano, Chorus and Orchetra - Salonen/Grimaud/Swedish Radio

Violin Sonatas - Mutter/Orkis

Cello Sonatas - Rostropovich/Richter

String Quintet C major Op.29 - Toyko SQ with Zukerman

String Quartets Op. 18 - Tokyo SQ

String Quartets Op.59/1, 2, 3 - Lindsay SQ

String Quartet Op.127 - Vegh SQ

String Quartet Op.130 - Budapest SQ (1933/34)

String Quartet Op.130 - Fitzwilliam SQ

String Quartet Op.131 - Vegh SQ

String Quartet Op.132 - Fitzwilliam SQ

String Quartet Op.135 - Emerson SQ

Grosse Fuge Op.133 - Hagen SQ

Piano Trio Op.97 "Archduke" - Ashkenazy, Perlman, Harrel

Piano Sonatas Op.2/1, 2, 3 - Gould

Piano Sonatas Op.10/1, 2, 3 - Pollini

Piano Sonata Op.13 "Pathétique" - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.27/2  "Moonlight" - Gould

Piano Sonata Op.31/2 "Tempest" - Grimaud

Piano Sonata Op.53 "Waldstein" - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.57 "Appassionata" - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.57 "Appassionata" - Pollini

Piano Sonata Op.57 "Appassionata Deconstruction" - Gould  ;D

Piano Sonata Op.78 "À Thérèse" - Gould

Piano Sonata Op.81a "Les Adieux" - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.101 - Gilels

Piano Sonata Op.106 "Hammerklavier" - Gould (no joke)

Piano Sonata Op.109 - Grimaud

Piano Sonata Op.110 - Grimaud

Piano Sonata Op.111 - Pollini

Für Elise - Ugorski


Sarge





Posts like yours make coming on this forum worthwhile, Sarge!


String Quartets Op.59/1- Borodin SQ  59/2,3-Vegh

String Quartet Op.127 - Vegh SQ

String Quartet Op.130 - Juillard (the classic recording)

String Quartet Op.131 - Vegh SQ

String Quartet Op.132 - Borodin

String Quartet Op.135 - Takacs

Grosse Fuge Op.133 - I'm leaning toward the Takacs, but I greatly admire the Vegh and even the Emerson!

Missa Solemnis-Gardiner

"Kreutzer"-Ashenazy/Perlman

In regard to the rest, my jury is still out.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on April 27, 2007, 11:33:10 AM
I sympathize, Karl. We're not living in a time that's terribly receptive to, or grateful, for, your talents. I really wish it weren't so.

Sarge




Time will change things.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2007, 12:41:49 PM
Do you need to know about Beet's life and times to fully appreciate his music?

No...but sometimes it helps. I've told this story before: the Eroica eluded me for years. I just didn't get it. Then I saw a documentary about the symphony which explained the circumstances of its creation, the political situation then and details about Beethoven's life; it explained the revolutionary aspects of the Eroica. That did it; it gave me instant access to the music.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on April 27, 2007, 01:24:03 PM
No...but sometimes it helps. I've told this story before: the Eroica eluded me for years. I just didn't get it. Then I saw a documentary about the symphony which explained the circumstances of its creation, the political situation then and details about Beethoven's life; it explained the revolutionary aspects of the Eroica. That did it; it gave me instant access to the music.

Sarge



I felt the same way about the Eroica. It was hearing Herbert Von Karajan's 1962 recording which completely converted me, now it's one of my favorite LvB pieces.

So, I take it you're referring to the "Eroica" movie, Sarge? The board seems to be roughly split as to its merits, and I personally am interested in it. So I would really appreciate any input you can give on it, as it just might be my future rental from Netflix...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2007, 01:30:52 PM
So, I take it you're referring to the "Eroica" movie, Sarge?

No, not the movie, Andy. I saw an hour-long television documentary featuring Bernstein's performance with the NY Phil...excerpts, not the entire symphony. I can't recall the exact year but I believe it was in the late 60s.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 27, 2007, 05:32:39 PM
Hey Bill since you're on an old recording kick-- have you heard Schnabel perform any of Beethoven's sonatas?  I think he's pretty good, what do you think?

Absolutely love them....I still need a good handful of them.  I have 2 out of the 5 volumes.  I am in no rush, but eventually would like to complete the set as transferred by the Pearl label (George and Que are on board with this label as well).  What transfer have you heard my friend?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on April 28, 2007, 04:33:19 AM
Absolutely love them....I still need a good handful of them.  I have 2 out of the 5 volumes.  I am in no rush, but eventually would like to complete the set as transferred by the Pearl label (George and Que are on board with this label as well).  What transfer have you heard my friend?

I've heard the Naxos ones.  I've heard that Pearl is supposed to be the best, but that might be too pricy for me.  EMI is awful, I heard it and it was like really funky, piano doesn't sound right at all.  That's a high price to pay to get rid of hiss, I think the truth is that you can't completely eliminate hiss without making the piano sound funky.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 28, 2007, 04:39:16 AM
I've heard the Naxos ones.  I've heard that Pearl is supposed to be the best, but that might be too pricy for me.  EMI is awful, I heard it and it was like really funky, piano doesn't sound right at all.  That's a high price to pay to get rid of hiss, I think the truth is that you can't completely eliminate hiss without making the piano sound funky.

I think you are right.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 28, 2007, 04:39:50 AM
I've heard the Naxos ones.  I've heard that Pearl is supposed to be the best, but that might be too pricy for me.  EMI is awful, I heard it and it was like really funky, piano doesn't sound right at all.  That's a high price to pay to get rid of hiss, I think the truth is that you can't completely eliminate hiss without making the piano sound funky.

What Geroge said.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: edward on April 28, 2007, 04:41:46 AM
Which transfers were used on the Regis issue? (That's the one I have, and I assume they didn't transfer it themselves.)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 28, 2007, 04:43:55 AM
Which transfers were used on the Regis issue? (That's the one I have, and I assume they didn't transfer it themselves.)

Edward,
By chance (fingers crossed) do you have samples of both the Regis and the Pearl to compare the two?  That would be a most helpful comparison for myself.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on April 28, 2007, 04:48:57 AM
Which transfers were used on the Regis issue? (That's the one I have, and I assume they didn't transfer it themselves.)

I think its Nuovo Era. (http://groups.google.com.vc/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_frm/thread/a8a5b5bfe3ab1346/db9ecdc83dfc8eed?lnk=gst&q=Regis+Schnabel+Beethoven+&rnum=2&hl=en#)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: edward on April 28, 2007, 05:00:19 AM
Edward,
By chance (fingers crossed) do you have samples of both the Regis and the Pearl to compare the two?  That would be a most helpful comparison for myself.
Sorry, I don't have the Pearl.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Wanderer on April 30, 2007, 04:23:53 AM


1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

Beethoven managed to produce at least one masterpiece in every genre, pushing boundaries and becoming a paragon for his successors.I could single out Missa Solemnis as the most monumental of his creations and a particular favourite of mine.


2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

Great favourites of mine are the Missa Solemnis (and the often maligned Mass in C), all the symphonies (especially nos.3, 5, 6, 9), piano concertos nos.4 & 5, violin concerto, many piano sonatas ("Waldstein", op.101, etc), choral fantasia, violin sonatas nos.5, 9 & 10, the cello sonatas, "Archduke" trio, overtures (especially "Die Weihe des Hauses")...and I don't really dislike anything.


3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

One can only guess and I won't.

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?


Off the top of my head:
Symphonies: Abbado DVD cycle.
Piano Sonatas: Gilels & Gulda.
Concertos: Pollini, Gilels and a number of others.
Chamber: Argerich/Kremer (violin sonatas) and Argerich/Maisky (cello sonatas)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 30, 2007, 09:09:22 AM

1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

Beethoven managed to produce at least one masterpiece in every genre, pushing boundaries and becoming a paragon for his successors.I could single out Missa Solemnis as the most monumental of his creations and a particular favourite of mine.

***
4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?


Off the top of my head:
Symphonies: Abbado DVD cycle.
Piano Sonatas: Gilels & Gulda.
Concertos: Pollini, Gilels and a number of others.
Chamber: Argerich/Kremer (violin sonatas) and Argerich/Maisky (cello sonatas)


Any favored recordings of Missa Solemnis?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on April 30, 2007, 09:11:11 AM
and I don't really dislike anything.

Probably the only composition that I really "dislike" is the remaking of the violin concerto as a piano concerto.  I understand why Beethoven did it, but he should have burned the score . . . . . . .  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Wanderer on April 30, 2007, 10:42:23 AM
Any favored recordings of Missa Solemnis?

For the time being, Levine and Karajan (the 1958 version on Testament). I'd like to hear Harnoncourt's version.

Probably the only composition that I really "dislike" is the remaking of the violin concerto as a piano concerto.  I understand why Beethoven did it, but he should have burned the score . . . . . . .  :D

The first movement cadenza of Beethoven's piano transcription (piano & timpani!) is a delight, though. Kremer has used it (in a transcription for violin, piano & timpani) in his own recording with Harnoncourt.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on April 30, 2007, 11:02:18 AM
Quote
Beethoven's Bistro

Would you like Für Elise with that?

 8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on April 30, 2007, 11:04:15 AM
Probably the only composition that I really "dislike" is the remaking of the violin concerto as a piano concerto.  I understand why Beethoven did it, but he should have burned the score . . . . . . .  :D

I dislike Wellington's Victory, and I don't think I am in the minority.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: hornteacher on April 30, 2007, 12:04:33 PM
Probably the only composition that I really "dislike" is the remaking of the violin concerto as a piano concerto.  I understand why Beethoven did it, but he should have burned the score . . . . . . .  :D

There's a remake of the VC as a CLARINET concerto that is actually quite good.  Couldn't imagine it as a piano concerto though.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: hornteacher on April 30, 2007, 12:05:51 PM
I dislike Wellington's Victory, and I don't think I am in the minority.

I'm not a big fan of that one either, but ironically, it was a huge hit when first performed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on April 30, 2007, 03:46:31 PM
I dislike Wellington's Victory, and I don't think I am in the minority.
I'm not a big fan of that one either, but ironically, it was a huge hit when first performed.

Agreed.  Great title, and usually cool cover art on the cd....but that is where it ends for me.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2007, 10:06:20 AM
The first movement cadenza of the piano transcription (piano & timpani!) is a delight, though. Kremer has used it (in a transcription for violin, piano & timpani) in his own recording with Harnoncourt.

Very interesting.  8)  A cadenza comprising a violin, piano, and timpani trio!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on May 01, 2007, 10:07:57 AM
The first movement cadenza of the piano transcription (piano & timpani!) is a delight, though. Kremer has used it (in a transcription for violin, piano & timpani) in his own recording with Harnoncourt.

Harnoncourt wouldn't go for the Schnittke cadenze, eh?  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2007, 10:09:26 AM
I'm not a big fan of that one either, but ironically, it was a huge hit when first performed.

Yeah, it was an enormous crowd-pleaser back in 1813 (when it premiered alongside his Seventh Symphony).

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 01, 2007, 10:14:08 AM
There's a remake of the VC as a CLARINET concerto that is actually quite good.  Couldn't imagine it as a piano concerto though.

Fascinating.  Here it is:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NPRWHKVCL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Wanderer on May 01, 2007, 10:33:01 AM
Very interesting.  8)  A cadenza comprising a violin, piano, and timpani trio!
A fascinating listen. The effect is similar in principle to Liszt's use of the triangle in his first piano concerto.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/6604473.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/8072599.jpg)


Harnoncourt wouldn't go for the Schnittke cadenze, eh?  8)

Is there such a cadenza? Is it recorded?  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on May 01, 2007, 11:47:52 AM
I'm not sure if it's been recorded (Kremer must surely have done that?) but a while back someone posted a performance with the Schnittke cadenza in the Broadcast Corner thread - maybe it's still up?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: hornteacher on May 01, 2007, 12:05:52 PM
Fascinating.  Here it is:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NPRWHKVCL._SS500_.jpg)

Yep, that's the one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 05:41:12 AM
A lot of discussion about Kempff's Beethoven on the Listening Thread that was very interesting, so thought I would try to fire it up here so it will not get buried in the upcoming weeks.

Folks,
Out of all the cycles, and for that matter, incomplete cycles, what recordings of the sonatas would you say are the most "slow" or methodical, if the later is a better term?  And I am talking the speed where while you are listening you are physically trying to nudge the performer along without success.  Would the Kempff stereo works be one of these?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Todd on May 06, 2007, 05:51:32 AM
I'm not George, so I can't answer for him, but for me the pianist most in need of a nudge is Anton Kuerti in his 1970s cycle.  Kempff's stereo recordings are slow(-ish), but they work for what they are.  Ikuyo Nakamichi is also slow at times, and maybe a nudge couldn't hurt.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 06:11:43 AM
I'm not George, so I can't answer for him, but for me the pianist most in need of a nudge is Anton Kuerti in his 1970s cycle.  Kempff's stereo recordings are slow(-ish), but they work for what they are.  Ikuyo Nakamichi is also slow at times, and maybe a nudge couldn't hurt.

Thank you for that Todd.  Changed my original post to an open invitation to all those that want to field it....no discourtesy intended here and my apologies folks.

As to your post Todd, I find it very reassuring as to your take on the Kempff cycle.  I tend to enjoy my non-orchestral Beethoven on the slow side (guess that is why I enjoy the Vegh SQ's as much as I do).  Maybe that is why I have found my Kempff stereo cycle so enjoyable and was wondering why I just do not line up with many of the other performers I have heard.  I am going to begin to explore the other two that you listed as well, Ikuyo Nakamichi and Anton Kuerti, for I might really enjoy these performances.  Thanks here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 06, 2007, 06:28:20 AM
Folks,
Out of all the cycles, and for that matter, incomplete cycles, what recordings of the sonatas would you say are the most "slow" or methodical, if the later is a better term?  And I am talking the speed where while you are listening you are physically trying to nudge the performer along without success.  Would the Kempff stereo works be one of these?

When I think slow or methodical, Barenboim, Arrau, Gould and Gilels spring to mind. Richter can also fit this description in some works, namely the late ones. At first impression I absolutely wanted to nudge them along without success. Over time, though, I find that when I am in the right mood, these interpretations are a delight to listen to. Late evening is one such time. Things are revealed that are glossed over in the faster interpretations.

No, Kempff is not one of these. I hear his tempos as being fairly middle of the road, at times even faster than the norm, as in some slow movements. His Beethoven is a scaled down Beethoven, with dynamics that probably resemble that of the HIP versions more than any other modern pianist that I can think of. I suspest this is why Que enjoys his LvB. Kempff's is a mature Beethoven that impresses with tone and finesse rather than power and speed. I once told Bruce that listening to Kempff is like listening to your grandfather play Beethoven. I would say the same of Arrau.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 06:33:15 AM
Kempff's is a mature Beethoven that impresses with tone and finesse rather than power and speed. I once told Bruce that listening to Kempff is like listening to your grandfather play Beethoven. I would say the same of Arrau.

Great lines....this discription I believe still lines up with my taste here.  Maybe an Arrau sampling is in order as well.  Thanks George.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 06, 2007, 06:38:37 AM
Great lines....this discription I believe still lines up with my taste here.  Maybe an Arrau sampling is in order as well.  Thanks George.

I haven't heard the full Arrau set, but I (and donwyn and Wanderer) strongly suggest trying out Gilels, especially in the new economical box on DG. His is the most consistent cycle that I have heard. If you like his style, I think you'll be very pleased with the entire set.
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B000ICM0YY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465745&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B000ICM0YY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465745&sr=8-1)

You can listen to it here (earlier incarnation):
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-29-Piano-Sonatas-Gilels/dp/B0000012YO/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465797&sr=8-2 (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-29-Piano-Sonatas-Gilels/dp/B0000012YO/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465797&sr=8-2)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 06:53:40 AM
I haven't heard the full Arrau set, but I (and donwyn and Wanderer) strongly suggest trying out Gilels, especially in the new economical box on DG. His is the most consistent cycle that I have heard. If you like his style, I think you'll be very pleased with the entire set.
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B000ICM0YY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465745&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Sonatas-Ludwig-van/dp/B000ICM0YY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465745&sr=8-1)

You can listen to it here (earlier incarnation):
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-29-Piano-Sonatas-Gilels/dp/B0000012YO/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465797&sr=8-2 (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-29-Piano-Sonatas-Gilels/dp/B0000012YO/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1178465797&sr=8-2)

Thanks for the links....most helpful.  The Gilels "sound" is a bit too "tinny"/metallic for me....not soft enough if you will.  It lacks the warmth that I enjoy with Kempff.  Just a matter of my taste and my perception here and no slight at what you and others enjoy.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 06, 2007, 06:55:56 AM
Thanks for the links....most helpful.  The Gilels "sound" is a bit too "tinny"/metallic for me....not soft enough if you will.  It lacks the warmth that I enjoy with Kempff.  Just a matter of my taste and my perception here and no slight at what you and others enjoy.

Of course not. Arrau may be the one then, his sound is analog and indeed warmer. It comes with excellent performances of the concertos as well.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 07:01:45 AM
Of course not. Arrau may be the one then, his sound is analog and indeed warmer. It comes with excellent performances of the concertos as well.

And you know, the Kempff stereo cycle may just be the one for me and though I will continue to explore other recordings, which I believe to be prudent, this one may just be the closest I come to a perfect fit.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 07:18:23 AM
And you know, the Kempff stereo cycle may just be the one for me and though I will continue to explore other recordings, which I believe to be prudent, this one may just be the closest I come to a perfect fit.

After all, I would never want to leave out my exploration of Serkin's efforts here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 06, 2007, 07:19:54 AM
And you know, the Kempff stereo cycle may just be the one for me and though I will continue to explore other recordings, which I believe to be prudent, this one may just be the closest I come to a perfect fit.

Indeed, if you feel satisfied with Kempff, there's really no need to get more. Arrau does have a very different take that is highly regarded, so he's certainly worth trying out from the library or a cheap used copy.

What kind of surprises me is that your fave (I think) in the symphonies is HvK '62. Somehow this doesn't match up with Kempff in the sonatas.  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 06, 2007, 07:20:43 AM
After all, I would never want to leave out my exploration of Serkin's efforts here.

Certainly not .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on May 06, 2007, 07:21:33 AM
Indeed, if you feel satisfied with Kempff, there's really no need to get more. Arrau does have a very different take that is highly regarded, so he's certainly worth trying out from the library or a cheap used copy.

What kind of surprises me is that your fave (I think) in the symphonies is HvK '62. Somehow this doesn't match up with Kempff in the sonatas.  :-\

I call it "range", my friend. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2007, 01:27:19 PM

I suspect this is why Que enjoys his LvB.

And Gurn.  :)

Still my favorite on modern instrument...

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on May 06, 2007, 02:18:42 PM
The Diabelli Variations could probably deserve their own thread, but we have so many this and that threads already, I'll bring it here; actually very fitting for a Bistro, an enjoyable establishment to savour a selection of various small dishes.

This afternoon I watched the Bruno Monsaingeon film of Piotr Anderszewski playing this Beethoven masterpiece and one of the first items this young and very charismatic pianist informed me of, is those pieces are not real variations, they are Veränderungen, giving me the original German name in the title. There is a difference between variations and Veränderungen!

Monsaingeon is a master film maker - His Sokolov live in Paris my favorite! - and this DVD shows the extreme care and effort he takes in creating a work for us to not only enjoy, but also to learn from. Anderszewski enthusiastically points out various sections highlighting Beethoven's genius. The camera work is excellent; keys and fingers in extreme closeup, and of course the pianists emotional involvement. No bright lights, no sensational effects, simply a film of a pianist, his piano and Beethoven. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2007, 03:02:42 PM
The Diabelli Variations could probably deserve their own thread, but we have so many this and that threads already, I'll bring it here; actually very fitting for a Bistro, an enjoyable establishment to savour a selection of various small dishes.

This afternoon I watched the Bruno Monsaingeon film of Piotr Anderszewski playing this Beethoven masterpiece and one of the first items this young and very charismatic pianist informed me of, is those pieces are not real variations, they are Veränderungen, giving me the original German name in the title. There is a difference between variations and Veränderungen!

Monsaingeon is a master film maker - His Sokolov live in Paris my favorite! - and this DVD shows the extreme care and effort he takes in creating a work for us to not only enjoy, but also to learn from. Anderszewski enthusiastically points out various sections highlighting Beethoven's genius. The camera work is excellent; keys and fingers in extreme closeup, and of course the pianists emotional involvement. No bright lights, no sensational effects, simply a film of a pianist, his piano and Beethoven. 

Uffe,
I am ready to accept that as a concept. But I would really like to know what the word means, precisely. (I'm sure there is no exact translation, but a sense of the difference would be good). Then we can think about what the differences are and how they are illustrated in the music. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on May 06, 2007, 03:17:03 PM
To give you a short explanation - supper is waiting! - : potatoes, meat and vegetables are variations of different food items. Mashed potatoes, fried potatoes, boiled potatoes are spuds in different forms: Verändert.

Beethoven took the Diabelli Walzer and 'veränderte', it's the same waltz - same potatoes! - variations would be if had used gavottes, mazurkas or polkas, all musical compositions, for his work. Clear?  ???

 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2007, 04:44:07 PM
To give you a short explanation - supper is waiting! - : potatoes, meat and vegetables are variations of different food items. Mashed potatoes, fried potatoes, boiled potatoes are spuds in different forms: Verändert.

Beethoven took the Diabelli Walzer and 'veränderte', it's the same waltz - same potatoes! - variations would be if had used gavottes, mazurkas or polkas, all musical compositions, for his work. Clear?  ???

 

Crystal clear. Danke!

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 06, 2007, 04:46:11 PM
I call it "range", my friend. ;)

That's precisely my point. If you have range across genres, then I figure that you must have range within each genre. Therefore, no one pianist is going to "be the one for you" leaving room for many types of interpretations. That's why I have well, lets just say "many" different interpretations, for I have range as well. In fact, if I had to choose between my favorite set (A. Fischer) and the rest, I would take the rest because I feel that I don't really see those works clearly without looking at them through a number of pianist's eyes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on May 07, 2007, 01:45:37 AM
Thanks, Uffe, for recommending the DVD. I have Anderszewski's Diabellis on CD and it's one of my favorite piano CDs of all time (though I don't have an extremely large collection 0:)). So I'll probably want the DVD as well. Will have to buy that. (Or were you going to bin yours after watching, maybe? 0:))
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 07, 2007, 02:14:29 AM
Thanks, Uffe, for recommending the DVD. I have Anderszewski's Diabellis on CD and it's one of my favorite piano CDs of all time (though I don't have an extremely large collection 0:)). So I'll probably want the DVD as well. Will have to buy that. (Or were you going to bin yours after watching, maybe? 0:))

Yes, that DVD looks like a winner! I'd like to learn more about the Diabelli Variations Veränderungen . . . . And about mashed potatoes . . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: val on May 07, 2007, 03:06:26 AM
Quote
George l

That's precisely my point. If you have range across genres, then I figure that you must have range within each genre. Therefore, no one pianist is going to "be the one for you" leaving room for many types of interpretations. That's why I have well, lets just say "many" different interpretations, for I have range as well. In fact, if I had to choose between my favorite set (A. Fischer) and the rest, I would take the rest because I feel that I don't really see those works clearly without looking at them through a number of pianist's eyes.


I agree with that. The Sonatas are very different and require different qualities. Even Sonatas composed in the same period. Sometimes even in the same Sonata. Solomon, for example, is extraordinary in the first movement of the opus 111 but has not the rhythmic imagination in the Arietta (Gulda !!!!). Another good example would be Brendel in the opus 28: the first movement is perfect, but in the Andante he takes a tempo too fast and cannot prepare the abrupt explosion in the coda.

But there are, at least to me, some exceptions: the ideal version of the opus 10/3 by Schnabel, of the opus 27/1 by Kempff (1951), the opus 57 by Backhaus, the opus 90 by Solomon.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 07, 2007, 03:09:30 AM
But there are, at least to me, some exceptions: the ideal version of the opus 10/3 by Schnabel,

Yes, absolutely! This is his one of his very greatest LvB sonatas, along with Op. 2, No's 1 and 2.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on May 07, 2007, 05:21:25 AM
Crystal clear. Danke!

8)

D Minor: Having supper sitting at my table, made using mashed potatoes as a metaphor for the Diabelli Veränderungen only logical! It worked!  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 08, 2007, 01:45:52 PM
For those interested, an entire book has been written about the Diabelli Variations (file this under the "I HAD NO IDEA" folder):

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/513K0KPMR5L._SS500_.jpg)

"William Kinderman is a very rare bird. His book on Beethoven's Diabelli Variations must be one of the best monographs a musical masterpiece has ever received" - Alfred Brendel


Says William Kinderman:  "[The Diabelli Variations] represent Beethoven’s most extraordinary single achievement in the art of variation writing, and their originality and power of invention stand beside other late masterpieces such as the Ninth Symphony, Missa Solemnis, and the last String Quartets."1   In publishing the Diabelli Variations, Anton Diabelli introduced them with the following statement: "We present here to the world variations of no ordinary type, but a great and important masterpiece worthy to be ranked with the imperishable creations of the old classics . . . . All these variations, through the novelty of their ideas, care in working out, and beauty in the most artful of their transitions, will entitle the work to a place beside Johann Sebastian Bach's famous masterpiece in the same form."

1 William Kinderman,The Evolution and Structure of Beethoven's "Diabelli" Variations,  Journal of the American Musicological Society, Vol. 35, No. 2 (Summer, 1982).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on May 09, 2007, 04:24:42 AM
I dislike Wellington's Victory, and I don't think I am in the minority.





You're not. But I sympathise with Lv's need for accessibility at the time. Gotta make money sometime, right?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on May 09, 2007, 04:25:50 AM
Harnoncourt wouldn't go for the Schnittke cadenze, eh?  8)



 ;D 8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 09, 2007, 04:25:53 AM
You're not. But I sympathise with Lv's need for accessibility at the time. Gotta make money sometime, right?

Yes, but its also important to save some time for your friends, no?  ;)

Welcome home!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on May 09, 2007, 04:27:25 AM
Yes, but its also important to save some time for your friends, no?  ;)

Welcome home!  :)



Thanks, George!


Have you posted your feelings in regard to the Gould LvB yet?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 09, 2007, 04:32:12 AM


Thanks, George!


Have you posted your feelings in regard to the Gould LvB yet?

Only on sonata #1 (in the listening thread.) I still have my complete Goode and Brendel Vox sets to crack open.   :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on May 09, 2007, 04:39:09 AM
Only on sonata #1 (in the listening thread.) I still have my complete Goode and Brendel Vox sets to crack open.   :-\




Sounds you're going to be happy!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 09, 2007, 04:49:08 AM
Sounds you're going to be happy!

Yes, I was going to do a side by side comparison of each sonata, but the last time I tried that (with Kempff, Backhaus and Schnabel) I actually got sick of the music for awhile.   
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on May 09, 2007, 04:57:41 AM
Yes, I was going to do a side by side comparison of each sonata, but the last time I tried that (with Kempff, Backhaus and Schnabel) I actually got sick of the music for awhile.   




 :o


YOU????!!! :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 09, 2007, 05:30:12 AM



 :o


YOU????!!! :D


Its true.  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 09, 2007, 08:01:24 AM
A 1954 recording by Serkin of the Diabelli & Op. 109 (Piano Sonata no. 30) was released on May 8, 2007.

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/98/983097.jpg)

Release Date: 05/08/2007
Label:  Music & Arts Programs Of America Catalog #: 1200   Spars Code: ADD 
Composer:  Ludwig van Beethoven  0:)
Performer:  Rudolf Serkin  0:)
Recorded in: Mono  :'(
Length: 1 Hours 16 Mins.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 09, 2007, 08:02:07 AM
Also releasing on May 8, 2007:   Richter The Master Volume 1 – Beethoven

Piano Sonatas 19,20
Piano Sonatas 22,23 ("Appassionata")
Piano Sonatas 30, 31, 32

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/98/982231.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 09, 2007, 08:05:47 AM
And no person should be without Bedroom Bliss with Beethoven,to be released by RCA May, 15  2007.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b84weNwLL._SS500_.jpg)

Featuring Sviatoslav Richter, Vladimir Horowitz, et al.
And these orchestras: Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Gewandhausorchester Leipzig, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by André Previn, Fritz Reiner, Marek Janowski.

Place your order today . . . . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 09, 2007, 08:37:12 AM
A 1954 recording by Serkin of the Diabelli & Op. 109 (Piano Sonata no. 30) was released on May 8, 2007.

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/98/983097.jpg)

Release Date: 05/08/2007
Label:  Music & Arts Programs Of America Catalog #: 1200   Spars Code: ADD 
Composer:  Ludwig van Beethoven  0:)
Performer:  Rudolf Serkin  0:)
Recorded in: Mono  :'(
Length: 1 Hours 16 Mins.


FWIW, I believe that that Diabelli is available on SONY. I recommend getting their transfer, as they have access to the original tapes. The 109 was also released on SONY, coupled with superb versions of 3 other sonatas. Music and Arts hasn't impressed me as of late with their transfers.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 09, 2007, 08:39:58 AM
Also releasing on May 8, 2007:   Richter The Master Volume 1 – Beethoven

Piano Sonatas 19,20
Piano Sonatas 22,23 ("Appassionata")
Piano Sonatas 30, 31, 32

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/98/982231.jpg)


Discussion is underway... (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,800.0.html)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mozart on May 09, 2007, 08:53:46 AM
And no person should be without Bedroom Bliss with Beethoven,to be released by RCA May, 15  2007.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b84weNwLL._SS500_.jpg)

Featuring Sviatoslav Richter, Vladimir Horowitz, et al.
And these orchestras: Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Gewandhausorchester Leipzig, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by André Previn, Fritz Reiner, Marek Janowski.

Place your order today . . . . . . .


Thinking about Beethoven in bed just might slow you down you eager beaver!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 09, 2007, 08:59:11 AM
Thinking about Beethoven in bed just might slow you down you eager beaver!

Classic MM!  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 09, 2007, 09:03:29 AM
FWIW, I believe that that Diabelli is available on SONY. I recommend getting their transfer, as they have access to the original tapes. The 109 was also released on SONY, coupled with superb versions of 3 other sonatas. Music and Arts hasn't impressed me as of late with their transfers.

Thanks for that excellent input, George . . . . . . . You've earned your consulting fee . . . . . .  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 09, 2007, 09:04:06 AM
Discussion is underway... (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,800.0.html)



Nice to see that you're on top of this . . . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 09, 2007, 09:05:16 AM
Thinking about Beethoven in bed just might slow you down you eager beaver!

Mozart, you might be interested in the companion disk, Making Out to Mozart . . . . . . .

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NIHLm0K1L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mozart on May 09, 2007, 09:08:25 AM
Mozart, you might be interested in the companion disk, Making Out to Mozart . . . . . . .

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NIHLm0K1L._SS500_.jpg)

Its the Mozart effect, its proven to make hot naked girls on the beach unbeleivably attracted to you. Its science.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on May 09, 2007, 09:11:20 AM
Worthy companion volumes to Drooling to Dittersdorf, Pawing to Pachelbel, and Hanky-Panky by Handel.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on May 09, 2007, 09:55:50 AM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51b84weNwLL._SS500_.jpg)

What exactly is the woman with long hair doing to the woman with short hair?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Steve on May 09, 2007, 10:43:38 AM
What exactly is the woman with long hair doing to the woman with short hair?

And they say that classical musicans can't enjoy themselves.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 10, 2007, 02:29:14 AM
Helios (the GMG member) opines that Schnabel's recording of LvB PC #4 "is unmatchable."  Has anyone else heard this recording?

(http://images.ciao.com/iuk/images/products/normal/428/Schnabel_plays_Beethoven_Piano_Concertos__6166428.jpg)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 10, 2007, 02:33:38 AM
Helios (the GMG member) opines that Schnabel's recording of LvB PC #4 "is unmatchable."  Has anyone else heard this recording?

(http://images.ciao.com/iuk/images/products/normal/428/Schnabel_plays_Beethoven_Piano_Concertos__6166428.jpg)



I listened to it yesterday, but I only had one ear on it.  :-\

You can get it through Naxos for less money, coupled with the 3rd.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 10, 2007, 02:41:13 AM
Val (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,809.msg17700.html#msg17700) opines that Gulda's reading of LvB's piano sonatas (complete) represents the pinnacle . . . . . . 

(http://www.russiandvd.com/store/assets/product_images/imgs/front/42111.jpg)

 And this REVIEW (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9625)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 10, 2007, 02:50:55 AM
I should have read Michel's OP.

Just for a bit of fun - what CD from your collection should be an absolute no brainer for someone building a collection? It must be an absolute personal gem, and one you would be willing to give to someone if they could only hear one piece of music in their entire life.

Instead, I only went by the title of the thread. I am now going to remove my posts and rethink the question.

Gulda is sure an inexpensive, no-brainer, solid set, but something that I'd give to someone if they could only hear one piece of music there entire life? I am not so sure.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 10, 2007, 03:03:32 AM
I should have read Michel's OP.

Instead, I only went by the title of the thread. I am now going to remove my posts and rethink the question.

Gulda is sure an inexpensive, no-brainer, solid set, but something that I'd give to someone if they could only hear one piece of music there entire life? I am not so sure.

Yes, another case where the thread title can misrepresent the real thrust of the thread . . . . . .

(George, I've modified my post consistent with your modification on Michel's thread  ::))
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 10, 2007, 03:09:21 AM
. . . . . .a couple of "classics" released two weeks ago . . . . .

Beethoven Violin Sonatas, No 5 "spring", 7, 9 "kreutzer" & 10 / Y. Menuhin, J. Menuhin

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/98/980404.jpg)

On DVD, Beethoven: Violin Concerto / Milstein, Boult (includes RVW’s d minor symphony)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31NvsRKMvoL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on May 10, 2007, 03:28:15 AM
Worthy companion volumes to Drooling to Dittersdorf, Pawing to Pachelbel, and Hanky-Panky by Handel.




Schtupping to Shostakovich!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 10, 2007, 04:10:50 AM
Yes, another case where the thread title can misrepresent the real thrust of the thread . . . . . .

That explains why my grilled cheese has yet to arrive.  ::)

Quote
(George, I've modified my post consistent with your modification on Michel's thread  ::))


Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 10, 2007, 04:12:12 AM



Schtupping to Shostakovich!

I had a great one for Hummel, but this is a family forum.  ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 10, 2007, 04:29:26 AM
Schtupping to Shostakovich!

I had a great one for Hummel, but this is a family forum.  ::)

In that same vein, I think I'll pass on revealing the CD title for Engelbert Humperdinck . . . . . .  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 10, 2007, 04:31:24 AM
That explains why my grilled cheese has yet to arrive.  ::)

The Beethoven BistroTM is still working on it's online food/beverage menu and delivery system . . . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 10, 2007, 04:45:42 AM
In that same vein, I think I'll pass on revealing the CD title for Engelbert Humperdinck . . . . . .  :D

 ;D

The Beethoven BistroTM is still working on it's online food/beverage menu and delivery system . . . . . .

When Bogey owned this establishment (Beethoven's Bar and Grill) the service was top-notch.  ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on May 10, 2007, 06:06:20 AM
;D

When Bogey owned this establishment (Beethoven's Bar and Grill) the service was top-notch.  ::)




DRAT the new! (Sorry, I still suffer from that embarrassing compulsion to simply write "DRAT!" out of nowhere).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on May 10, 2007, 03:48:54 PM
;D

When Bogey owned this establishment (Beethoven's Bar and Grill) the service was top-notch.  ::)

Here is a shot of the ol' place....

(http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/forwood/images/cubapho9.jpg)


Closed her down as soon as I opened Rick's Cafe Americain ;):

(http://nineofhearts.tripod.com/17/ricks.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 11, 2007, 03:56:23 AM
Bogey, I had forgotton about the Bar & Grill . . . . . . it had been inactive for over six months . . . . . .

But in fairness, I’ve contacted my lawyers with the goal of transfering a 49% ownership interest in the Bistro to you (or your designee).  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 11, 2007, 04:01:22 AM
LvB’s cello sonatas had been off my radar screen until Val touted their beauty – especially the slow movements.  Accordingly, I purchased this DVD, which seems to be a no-brainer. 

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZNQXB1HCL._SS500_.jpg)

Here’s one short-‘n-sweet review: Despite his enormous discography, there's not a very rich visual record of Richter. He and Rostropovich excelled in concert performance, and these DVDs convey their intensity playing some of the best music ever written for the cello. Richter once said in an interview that Beethoven is a matter of life and death, and that feeling comes through quite clearly here. There's a bonus solo piano reading of Mendelssohn's Variations Serieuses, Op. 54, that is dazzling.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 11, 2007, 05:38:06 AM
Other top contenders (other than the above-referenced DVD) for LvB cello sonatas:

Richter/Rostropovich. 

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41GJ4MDS9WL._SS500_.jpg)

Cortot/Casals

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51R8AR5D4GL._AA240_.jpg[img]

DuPre/Barenboim

[img]http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZBM5RYSML._AA240_.jpg)

Ashkenazy/Harrell

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41K474HPV5L._AA240_.jpg)

Also:

Paul Tortelier / Eric Heidsieck

Martha Argerich / Mischa Maisky

HIP versions
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on May 12, 2007, 02:06:16 AM
Other top contenders (other than the above-referenced DVD) for LvB cello sonatas:

(...)

HIP versions

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/517z+FoXy3L._SS500_.jpg) (http://www.channelclassics.com/pictures/203592.jpg) (http://s.yottamusic.com/i/aMie.7BOF/375x375) (http://s.yottamusic.com/i/aMid.-upV/375x375)

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 12, 2007, 11:02:24 AM
I saw today in the store:

The Legacy of Maria Yudina

Volume 9

Beethoven Sonatas Op. 31/1, 90, 101 and Violin Sonata Op. 30/1


I know I have heard good things about her, but the CD is $20.

Anyone have it? How is it?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 13, 2007, 02:15:49 AM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/517z+FoXy3L._SS500_.jpg) (http://www.channelclassics.com/pictures/203592.jpg) (http://s.yottamusic.com/i/aMie.7BOF/375x375) (http://s.yottamusic.com/i/aMid.-upV/375x375)

Q

Well, I just sampled some of these HIP recordings, and I can comfortably assert that the cello sonata repertoire is very well served by HIP performances!  So expressive and intimate was the dialogue between cello and keyboard/fortepiano that I could see Beethoven smiling from above . . . . . . .  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 13, 2007, 02:21:07 AM
I saw today in the store:

The Legacy of Maria Yudina

Volume 9

Beethoven Sonatas Op. 31/1, 90, 101 and Violin Sonata Op. 30/1


I know I have heard good things about her, but the CD is $20.

Anyone have it? How is it?

How could anyone resist this babe:

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio-BIG/Yudina-Maria-10.jpg)

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio-BIG/Yudina-Maria-11.jpg)

(http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Bio/Yudina-Maria-08[1968].jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Drasko on May 13, 2007, 02:57:50 PM
How could anyone resist this babe:

That is not very gentlemanly of you Minor. She was 69 in that last photo. She might not have been a babe but neither too bad looking when she was young.

          (http://www.vor.ru/English/MTales/Yudina1.gif)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 15, 2007, 09:19:16 AM
Releasing 5/15/07 ($26.49)

Julius Katchen performing LvB's PC's, Choral Fantasy, and Diabelli Variations

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/98/982515.jpg)

Release Date: 05/15/2007
Label:  Decca   Catalog #: 000886602   Spars Code: n/a 
Composer:  Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Julius Katchen
Conductor:  Piero Gamba
Orchestra/Ensemble:  London Symphony Orchestra

Number of Discs: 4
Recorded in: Stereo

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on May 16, 2007, 05:13:19 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Xz-+zVSmL._SS500_.jpg)

Anyone get this one yet?   The samples sound nice.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 31, 2007, 09:17:46 AM
CLICK HERE FOR: Nathan Milstein performing Beethoven’s Kreutzer Sonata (1st Mov.)  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mixnMzHUYxA)


Good stuff, Maynard .........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 31, 2007, 09:28:45 AM
Well, finally decided to order some HIP Beethoven - part of a larger Amazon order below:

Gardiner in the Complete Symphonies - have two other sets, but modern instruments!

Quatuor Mosaïques in the Op. 18 SQs - actually ordered all 3 CDs, just one shown below -  :D

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41R2997KCDL._AA240_.jpg)  (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/July05/Beethoven_Quatuor_e8899.gif)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on May 31, 2007, 09:37:42 AM
Well, finally decided to order some HIP Beethoven -

(http://www.matica.hr/www/vijesti2www.nsf/AllWebDocs/slusaonica202/$File/STG01801/STG01801.gif) 

That's a winner, Dave.  One Amazon reviewer calls this the "bloodthirsty Beethoven" .......  :D  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on May 31, 2007, 09:43:40 AM
Hmm . . . must be "red in tooth and claw," eh, mon vieux?   8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Steve on May 31, 2007, 09:43:51 AM
That's a winner, Dave.  One Amazon reviewer calls this the "bloodthirsty Beethoven" .......  :D  :D

We share a love of Gardner, D Minor

This set is priceless.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: op.110 on May 31, 2007, 10:37:01 AM
What about Herr B's Mass in C Major? I hear it's underrated and one of his best works. Anyone care to enlighten me?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 01, 2007, 02:55:56 PM
LvB’s cello sonatas had been off my radar screen until Val touted their beauty – especially the slow movements.  Accordingly, I purchased this DVD, which seems to be a no-brainer. 
]


D,
This is my  "if you only had one disc" of LvB:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/02/29344.JPG)

Pablo Casals, Mieczyslaw Horszowski, et. al.



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: AnthonyAthletic on June 01, 2007, 03:03:03 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Xz-+zVSmL._SS500_.jpg)

Anyone get this one yet?   The samples sound nice.

Had this cd for about 6 months, got it off the press from Brazil.

Delicate, refined sumptuous playing.  No bang bang from Mr Freire, a winner everyday and twice on Sundays  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 01, 2007, 03:21:59 PM
We share a love of Gardner, D Minor

This set is priceless.  :)

Yeah, we're hip to Gardiner ........  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 01, 2007, 03:26:54 PM
What about Herr B's Mass in C Major? I hear it's underrated and one of his best works. Anyone care to enlighten me?

Yeah, most of us need a collective C Major Mass shot in the arm: a very often neglected masterpiece.

This bad boy is a bargain:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/71/74/820c024128a09b8bbaf2a010.L.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 01, 2007, 03:30:43 PM
D,
This is my  "if you only had one disc" of LvB:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/02/29344.JPG)

Pablo Casals, Mieczyslaw Horszowski, et. al.

Sweet.  There's also Casals/Serkin which is a bargain-and-a-half:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CblvS6LzL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 01, 2007, 03:31:30 PM
Had this cd for about 6 months,

...... so what happened to it?  :D ........  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: AnthonyAthletic on June 01, 2007, 03:51:12 PM
...... so what happened to it?  :D ........  >:D

Still there on the shelf, sandwiched between two Solomon Testaments.  It makes regular visits to the HiFi  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 01, 2007, 03:51:36 PM
Sweet.  There's also Casals/Serkin which is a bargain-and-a-half:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CblvS6LzL._SS500_.jpg)

The Serkin one was the main one on my radar, but found the other set at a used shop and that took care of things.  However, the purchase of the Casals/Serkin still must happen.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 01, 2007, 04:08:12 PM
Had this cd for about 6 months, got it off the press from Brazil.

Delicate, refined sumptuous playing.  No bang bang from Mr Freire, a winner everyday and twice on Sundays  ;D

I thought the Walstein was altogether too rushed for me. I haven't heard the rest, but I am sure that it is how you describe.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 01, 2007, 04:09:10 PM
The Serkin one was the main one on my radar, but found the other set at a used shop and that took care of things.  However, the purchase of the Casals/Serkin still must happen.  :)

As it must for this listener. Evening, buddy.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 01, 2007, 05:56:05 PM
The Serkin one was the main one on my radar, but found the other set at a used shop and that took care of things.  However, the purchase of the Casals/Serkin still must happen.  :)

I have yet to visit a used CD shop ........ I think I'm missing out .........  :'(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 02, 2007, 09:14:29 AM
Artur Rubinstein performing LvB’s 4th Piano Concerto

1st movement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otn1uEOT91g)
2d movement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLPydYbk0JM)
3d movement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7ODJHUX_EM)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 04, 2007, 04:41:02 AM
Anyone hear Anthony Newman's HiP playing of LvB's 4th? i can't remember the conductor, bu it was quite good (and cheap!). the 3rd movement is particularly captivating. They do the 2nd PC on that disc as well, which comes out sounding even more Mozart-ian than it was to begin with.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Scriptavolant on June 04, 2007, 04:57:28 PM
Does anyone, by any chance, happen to know something about the 60 Cds Set attached? Has the theme already been tackled in this topic?
Any suggestion? I find it quite cheap (50€) and I'm greedy.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on June 05, 2007, 12:14:03 AM
When it's large box sets you're talking about, Harry always has something to say. ;D

But I don't think the subject has been broached in this thread, and I'm interested too. I understand there's also a cheap 50CD set from another label?

What interests me especially is what Que asked about once (and he never got a reply, at least not that I've noticed): are the CDs packed in separate jewel boxes? This is important for those of us who probably wouldn't want every single CD in the set and would want to resell some of them.

Maciek
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 05, 2007, 02:25:38 AM
Does anyone, by any chance, happen to know something about the 60 Cds Set attached? Has the theme already been tackled in this topic?
Any suggestion? I find it quite cheap (50€) and I'm greedy.

That's the Arte Nova 60 CD set that Harry was raving about .......


PAGING HARRY ......... PAGING HARRY ...........PAGING HARRY ......... PAGING HARRY ...........PAGING HARRY .........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Florestan on June 05, 2007, 05:25:20 AM
Here's a bargain not to be missed.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XX08J6K1L._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on June 05, 2007, 10:48:49 AM
Does anyone, by any chance, happen to know something about the 60 Cds Set attached? Has the theme already been tackled in this topic?
Any suggestion? I find it quite cheap (50€) and I'm greedy.

Oke my dear friend, I received this box some while ago, and am sampling through the box, and you have cause for greediness, for apart from the vocal works, but that is personal, I will not play, its full of excellent recordings, Symphonies, and piano/Violin concertos Zinman most beautiful, SQ, Alexander Quartet, awesome, and I could go on eternally.
By all means buy it, its dead cheap, and worth your money triple.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on June 05, 2007, 10:51:45 AM
That's the Arte Nova 60 CD set that Harry was raving about .......


PAGING HARRY ......... PAGING HARRY ...........PAGING HARRY ......... PAGING HARRY ...........PAGING HARRY .........


Yes, yes, all right, I am here answering all questions concerning this box.
A note of caution however, the box is big, the cd's would fit in it thrice. Packed in flimsy paper sleeves, and all the texts and libretti on a cd rom, in English and German, PDF format. I did get for free a little stature of Beethoven with it, nice............
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on June 05, 2007, 10:54:58 AM
When it's large box sets you're talking about, Harry always has something to say. ;D


But I don't think the subject has been broached in this thread, and I'm interested too. I understand there's also a cheap 50CD set from another label?

What interests me especially is what Que asked about once (and he never got a reply, at least not that I've noticed): are the CDs packed in separate jewel boxes? This is important for those of us who probably wouldn't want every single CD in the set and would want to resell some of them.

Maciek

Large boxes, hmmmmmmmmmmm, really?
This EMI set you are talking about cannot reach the quality the Arte Nova/Sony set has.
The cd's are packed in papersleeves, alas.
I will not sell, but trade all the vocal recordings with anyone on the board, so please let me know if you are interested! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Novi on June 05, 2007, 11:05:39 AM
Here's a bargain not to be missed.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XX08J6K1L._SS500_.jpg)

Florestan, how does this one compare with his DG set?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 05, 2007, 11:05:56 AM
Oke my dear friend, I received this box some while ago, and am sampling through the box, and you have cause for greediness, for apart from the vocal works, but that is personal, I will not play, its full of excellent recordings, Symphonies, and piano/Violin concertos Zinman most beautiful, SQ, Alexander Quartet, awesome, and I could go on eternally.
By all means buy it, its dead cheap, and worth your money triple.

Harry, that's good and bad news.  :D

Good because you've answered the question ......  0:)

Bad because now I want it ! ! ! !  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 05, 2007, 01:17:22 PM
There is also a 2007 boxset of 87 CD's supposedly containing all of LvB's 748 works ("Beethoven Complete Edition").

 "Beethoven Complete Edition"  (http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Cedes/DocPDF/Coffret87CDCascade.pdf)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 05, 2007, 01:37:03 PM
• 784 works on 87 CDs: the most comprehensive Beethoven Edition currently available.
• 111 works were especially recorded for this edition, including several first recordings of previously unedited pieces.
• Recordings date from 1987 – 2007, world premiere recordings included.
• The 87 CDs come in prestigious cardboard sleeves packed in a decorative cardboard box with front flap.
• Bilingual labeling (German/English)
• Bilingual booklet (German/English) including alphabetic listing of all works included
• The edition was compiled on the basis of the prestigious “Beethoven Compendium” by Barry Cooper (Thames & Hudson, London 1991)
• Kindly supported by the Association Beethoven de France (ABF) and by the renowned US Beethoven expert James F. Green, author of “The New Hess Catalog of Beethoven’s Works”, Vance Brook Publishing, 2003

The result is a profound edition of Beethoven’s wonderful oeuvre.

The recordings are characterized by high-quality performances presented by renowned conductors, orchestras and soloists

EDIT TO ADD:

Bach-Collegium Stuttgart/Helmut Rilling; Norddeutsche Philharmonie/Eugen Duvier
Symphony Orchester des Südwestfunks Baden-Baden/Michael Gielen
Süddeutsche Philharmonie/Hanspeter Gmür; ORF Radio Symphony Orchester/Milan Horvat
Orchester der Wiener Volksoper/Eduard Lindenberg; Münchner Symphoniker/Alexander V. Pitamic
Nürnberger Symphoniker/Othmar M.F. Maga; Slowakische Philharmonie/Zdenek Kosler
Süddeutsche Philharmonie/Günter Neidlinger; Kammerorchester Bratislava/Vlastimil Horak
Artists include:
Rudolf Buchbinder, piano; Elisabeth Leonskaja, piano; Dubravka Tomsic, piano; Emmy Verhey, violin; Carlos Moerdijk, piano; Mario-Ratko Delorka, piano; Vitalij Margulis, piano; Conrad von der Goltz, violin; Jan Pollacek, violoncello; Kirste Hjort, piano; Sviatosalv Richter, piano; Irina Edelstein, piano; Stefan Gleitsmann, oboe; Ulrich Mehlhart, cello; Karl Ventulett, bassoon; Christian Lampert, horn; Hugo Steurer, piano; Ernst Gröschel, piano; Leon Spierer, violin; Sylvia Capova, piano; Hanae Nakajima, piano; Alfred Sommer, violoncello; Dieter Goldmann, piano; Christian Tetzlaff, violin; Phyllis Bryn-Julson, soprano; Marjana Lipovsek, alto; Josef Protschka, tenor; Kurt Rydl, bass; Magdalene Hajossvova, soprano; Jitka Zerhauova, alto; Peter Oswald, tenor; Peter Mikulas, bass; Peter Schreier, tenor - and many more…
CD 01 – 05: Complete Symphonies;
CD 06 - 08: Piano Concertos Nos. 1 - 5/ Triple Concerto Op. 56
CD 09: Romances for violin and orchestra nos. 1 & 2 / Violin Concerto Op. 61 / Concerto Movement for violin and orchestra WoO 5
CD 10: Variations for piano Op. 34 / Fantasy for piano Op. 77 / Polonaise for piano Op. 89 / Piano Concerto WoO 4
CD 11: The Creatures of Prometheus Op. 43
CD 12: Knight’s Ballet WoO 1 / Menuets WoO 7 / German Dances WoO 8 / Counter Dances WoO 14
CD 13: Egmont Op. 84 / Wellington’s Victory Op. 91
CD 14: The Ruins of Athens Op. 113 / From: Leonore Prohaska WoO 96 / Overture Op. 24 / Wo sich die Pulse jugendlich jagen WoO 98
CD 15: Romance cantabile Hess 13 / Vesta’s Fire (Opera Fragment) / Coriolan Overture Op. 62 / Zur Namensfeier – Grand Overture Op. 115 / King Stephan Op. 117 / Tarpeja WoO 2 / Germania WoO 94
CD 16 – 17: Leonore (1805) Hess 109; CD 18 – 19: Fidelio Op. 72; CD 20 – 28: Complete Piano Sonatas
CD 29: Bagatelles / Albumblatt Für Elise WoO 59
CD 30: Fugue Hess 64 C major / Allegretto Hess 69 C minor / Piano Sonatas WoO 47 / Miscellaneous pieces for piano
CD 31: Rondos for piano Op. 51 / Rondos for piano WoO 48 & 49/ Variations for piano WoO 64, 65 & 69
CD 32: Variations for piano Op. 76 / Variations for piano WoO 66, 72, 73, 75, 76 & 77
CD 33: Variations for piano Op. 35 / Menuets WoO 10 / Variations for piano WoO 70, 78, 79 & 80 / Ecossaises WoO 83
CD 34: Variations for piano Op. 120
CD 35: Sonata for piano at four hands Op.6 / Two Preludes Op. 39 / Marches Op. 45 / Rondo a capriccio Op. 129 / Grand Fugue Op. 134 / Andante favori WoO 57 / Variations for piano WoO 67 & 71
CD 36: Music for a Knight’s Ballet Hess 89 / German Dances Hess 100 / Menuets Hess 101 / Ländler Dances WoO 11 / German Dances WoO 13
CD 37: Sonatas for violin and piano nos. 1, 2 & 3
CD 38: Sonatas for violin and piano nos. 4 & 5 / Variations for piano and violin WoO 40 / Rondo for violin and piano WoO 41 / Piano Sonata WoO 51
CD 39: Sonatas for violin and piano nos. 6, 7 & 8; CD 40: Sonatas for violin and piano nos. 9 & 10
CD 41: Sonatas for violoncello and piano nos. 1 & 2 / Variations for violoncello and piano Op. 66 / Variations for violoncello and piano WoO 46
CD 42: Sonatas for violoncello and piano nos. 3, 4 & 5; CD 43: Trios for piano, violin and violoncello nos. 1 & 2
CD 44: Trios for piano, violin and violoncello nos. 3 & 5; CD 45: Trios for piano, violin and violoncello nos. 7 & 11
CD 46: Allegretto Hess 48 / Trios for piano, violin and violoncello nos. 8, 9 & 10 / Variations for violoncello and piano WoO 45
CD 47: Trio Op. 36 (Arrangement Symphony no. 2) / Trio for piano, clarinet and violoncello Op. 38
CD 48: Trios for violin, viola and violoncello nos. 1 & 2; CD 49: Trios for violin, viola and violoncello nos. 3, 4 & 5
CD 50: String Quartets nos. 1, 2 & 3; CD 51: String Quartets nos. 4, 5 & 6
CD 52: Prelude and Fugue Hess 31 / Quartet Hess 32 / String Quartet Hess 34 / Fugue Hess 36
CD 53: String Quartets nos. 7 & 8; CD 54: String Quartets nos. 9 & 10
CD 55: String Quartets nos. 12 & 14; CD 56: String Quartets nos. 11 & 13
CD 57: String Quartets nos. 15 & 16; CD 58: Quartets WoO 36
CD 59: Sonata for cornet and piano Op. 17 / Sextet Op. 81b / Trio for flute, bassoon and piano WoO 37
CD 60: Quintet Op. 16 / Serenade Op. 25 / Sonatina and Adagio WoO 43 / Sonatina and Andante con Variazioni WoO 44
CD 61: Trio for piano, clarinet and violoncello no. 4 / Septet Op. 20
CD 62: Quintet no. 2 Op. 29 / Quintet Fugue Op. 137 / Menuets WoO 9 / Ländler Dances WoO 15 / Miscellaneous pieces for violin
CD 63: Variations for piano and flute Op. 105 & 107
CD 64: Trio for two oboes and cor anglais Op. 87 / Variations for two oboes and cor anglais WoO 28 / Octet Op. 103
CD 65: Sextet Op. 71 / Duos WoO 27 / Marches WoO 24 & 29 / Equales WoO 30
CD 66: Songs op. 48 / Songs op. 83 / Miscellaneous Songs
CD 67: Songs op. 52 / Songs Op. 75 / Miscellaneous Songs
CD 68: Canons, Epigrams and Jokes / Love Songs / Solemn Songs / Ariette, Songs, Canzonetta
CD 69: Songs Op. 108 / Bundeslied op. 122 / Lied aus der Ferne WoO 137 / Der Jüngling in der Fremde WoO 138 / Sehnsucht WoO 146 / Ruf vom Berge WoO 147
CD 70: From: 25 Irish Songs WoO 152 & 153 / Miscellaneous Songs
CD 71: Ah, perfido op. 65 / From: Irish Songs WoO 152, 153 & 154 / From: Welsh Songs WoO 155 / From: Scottish Songs WoO 156
CD 72: From: Polyphonic Italian Songs WoO 99 / From: Irish Songs WoO 153 & 154 / From: Scottish Songs WoO 156 / From: Miscellaneous Folk Songs WoO 157 / Miscellaneous Songs
CD 73 - 75: Miscellaneous Songs
CD 76: Italian Arias and Singspiel Arias / Canons, Epigrams and Jokes
CD 77: Miscellaneous Songs
CD 78: Cantata on the death of Emperor Joseph II / Cantata on the accession of Emperor Leopold II
CD 79: Fantasy Op. 80 / The glorious moment Op. 136 / Menuet WoO 3 / Es ist vollbracht WoO 97
CD 80: Mass Op. 86 / Sacrifical Song Op. 121b / Elegiac Song Op. 118 / Meeresstille und glückliche Fahrt op. 112
CD 81: Missa Solemnis Op. 123
CD 82: Christ on the Mount of Olives Op. 85
CD 83: Menuet Hess 33 / Marches WoO 18, 19 & 20 / Polonaise WoO 21 / Ecossaise WoO 22 / Duo WoO 26 / Fugue WoO 31 / German Dances WoO 42 / Allegretto WoO 53 / Pieces for piano WoO 54 / Prelude WoO 55 / Variations for piano WoO 63
CD 84: Quintet Op. 4 / Trio for piano, violin and violoncello Op. 70,2
CD 85: Cameos for piano and orchestra
CD 86: Prelude and Fugue Hess 29 / Fugues Hess 237, 238, 243 & 244 / Suite WoO 33 (Five pieces for mechanical clock)
CD 87: Leonore Overtures nos. 1, 2 & 3 / Quintet Hess 19 / Grand Fugue Op. 133
 
 
HOLY CRAP ! ! ! ! ! 


 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 05, 2007, 01:54:58 PM
$120 (87 CDs)(http://www.ccd.pl/covery/BEETBOX01.JPG)



$52.99 (60 CDs)(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/31ty2iGC1XL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 05, 2007, 03:15:09 PM
Supposedly, in Sept. 2007, Brilliant Classics will be inaugurating a 100 CD boxset with everything LvB composed  :D ..... Why the sudden flurry of complete LvB boxsets?  ???
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Lethevich on June 05, 2007, 03:22:30 PM
• The 87 CDs come in prestigious cardboard sleeves packed in a decorative cardboard box with front flap.

WTF are "prestigious cardboard sleves"? They must've been scrambling desperately for an adjective there...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 05, 2007, 03:34:18 PM
WTF are "prestigious cardboard sleves"? They must've been scrambling desperately for an adjective there...

 ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 05, 2007, 04:37:45 PM
Supposedly, in Sept. 2007, Brilliant Classics will be inaugurating a 100 CD boxset with everything LvB composed  :D ..... Why the sudden flurry of complete LvB boxsets?  ???

Now if they can get around to the Haydn then we are golden.  I just may invest in the above.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2007, 04:57:01 PM
Now if they can get around to the Haydn then we are golden.  I just may invest in the above.

Rumor has it that they are doing exactly that right now. I can scarcely wait. I already have all of Mozart and Beethoven's music. All of it. But the complete Haydn??  :o   Right now they have the symphonies (Fischer), the fortepiano works (van Oort) and the piano trios (van Sweitens), AFAIK that is all. I know they are in process of a string quartet cycle too. But hey, that's a hell of a long way from a complete Haydn! They must already have a lot of it in the can if they are announcing it (next year, IIRC).  :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 05, 2007, 06:04:10 PM
Rumor has it that they are doing exactly that right now. I can scarcely wait. I already have all of Mozart and Beethoven's music. All of it. But the complete Haydn??  :o   Right now they have the symphonies (Fischer), the fortepiano works (van Oort) and the piano trios (van Sweitens), AFAIK that is all. I know they are in process of a string quartet cycle too. But hey, that's a hell of a long way from a complete Haydn! They must already have a lot of it in the can if they are announcing it (next year, IIRC).  :)

8)

(http://www.timvp.com/addams3.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on June 05, 2007, 07:29:44 PM
WTF are "prestigious cardboard sleves"? They must've been scrambling desperately for an adjective there...

hahaha

That made me laugh so hard. Prestigious cardboard sleeves. lmao.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Florestan on June 05, 2007, 09:22:23 PM
Now if they can get around to the Haydn then we are golden. 

I'm sure Harry eagerly awaits the complete Telemann edition! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on June 05, 2007, 10:26:27 PM
I'm sure Harry eagerly awaits the complete Telemann edition! :)

Grand idea Andrei, I sure do.
Goodmorning my friend.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on June 05, 2007, 10:28:38 PM
As for this grand big box of Beethoven presented somewhere above, I urge you to take a look at the performers, some good, but mostly obscure. Not so with the Sony/Arte Nova box, right! Price is a issue too.
The Brilliant box might be a option, but again the recordings are a mixed bag.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Florestan on June 05, 2007, 10:31:57 PM
Grand idea Andrei, I sure do.
Goodmorning my friend.

Good morning, Harry! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 06, 2007, 03:40:07 AM
As for this grand big box of Beethoven presented somewhere above, I urge you to take a look at the performers, some good, but mostly obscure. Not so with the Sony/Arte Nova box, right! Price is a issue too.
The Brilliant box might be a option, but again the recordings are a mixed bag.

I agree with you, Harry.  The Sony/Arte Nova box has several acclaimed performances.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2007, 03:41:20 AM
I wonder why this thread doesn't draw paulb back . . . .

 8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 06, 2007, 03:43:04 AM
$59.99 = price for 9CD set of LvB's 16 String Quartets performed by Alexander SQ

$52.99 = price for 60 CD set that includes 16 String Quartets performed by Alexander SQ


Which is the better value?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on June 06, 2007, 03:50:15 AM
$59.99 = price for 9CD set of LvB's 16 String Quartets performed by Alexander SQ

$52.99 = price for 60 CD set that includes 16 String Quartets performed by Alexander SQ


Which is the better value?

May I answer that a bit later, well lets see, 59,99 less 52,99 that should be..., no that can't be, ehhhh 60 cd's less 9 then, no that will not do either....O, I give up. ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2007, 06:24:37 AM
The trailer for The Adventures of Baron Munchausen makes delightful use of the wonderful Opus 125.

(Fourth movement, so be advised, Harry!)

In the movie itself, there is a charming allusion in the soundtrack to the Opus 27 No 2.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 06, 2007, 10:25:45 AM
In the movie itself, there is a charming allusion in the soundtrack to the Opus 27 No 2.

Which movement, Karl?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2007, 10:35:48 AM
Adagio sostenuto
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 06, 2007, 10:39:46 AM
Adagio sostenuto

Hmmmmm ....... such an obscure choice ..........  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 06, 2007, 10:44:26 AM
I wonder why this thread doesn't draw paulb back . . . .

 8)

This thread has been specifically designed to be paulb proof  :D ......... And all internal and external links to Pettersson have been banned .........  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2007, 10:56:54 AM
Hmmmmm ....... such an obscure choice ..........  >:D

Obscure? Befitting something illuminated by the moon, I suppose . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 06, 2007, 11:03:46 AM
Obscure? Befitting something illuminated by the moon, I suppose . . . .

........ That's what I meant .........  >:D

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 06, 2007, 11:04:35 AM
In the movie itself, there is a charming allusion in the soundtrack to the Opus 27 No 2.

.......... So the Moonlight Sonata was merely "alluded to" .......... Indirectly? ..........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 06, 2007, 11:10:18 AM
.......... So the Moonlight Sonata was merely "alluded to" .......... Indirectly? ..........

The arpeggio gets going, and you're waiting for the "tune," but it doesn't come, and the arpeggiated harmonies go elsewhere.  Very nice set up, and sonically evasive maneuvers  8)

It's when they're descending from the moon (where Robin Williams is King), on a ladder woven from some of Queen Ariadne's hair . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: FideLeo on June 07, 2007, 01:15:43 AM
Movie showing at the bistro:

Despite some oddities (Ludwig got married in this one) the biopic is quite superbly acted and therefore with checking out by fans: 

(http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6051/51rfkx1b1ylss500ac5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Un grand amour de Beethoven

Harry Baur: Beethoven
Jean-Louis Barrault: Karl

dir. Abel Gance


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 07, 2007, 07:13:00 AM
Movie showing at the bistro:

Despite some oddities (Ludwig got married in this one) the biopic is quite superbly acted and therefore with checking out by fans: 

(http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6051/51rfkx1b1ylss500ac5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)  (http://www.clown-ministry.com/images/three-stooges-in-color.jpg)

Un grand amour de Beethoven

Harry Baur: Beethoven
Jean-Louis Barrault: Karl

dir. Abel Gance


LOL -  ;D  I swear those guys looked like two of the 3 Stooges, just different hairdoos!  ;) :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 07, 2007, 08:22:29 AM
Despite some oddities . . .

Jean-Louis Barrault: Karl . . .

? ? ?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 07, 2007, 09:52:20 AM
LOL -  ;D  I swear those guys looked like two of the 3 Stooges, just different hairdoos!  ;) :D

LOL!!!!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: FideLeo on June 07, 2007, 10:02:59 AM
? ? ?

???

EDIT:  I think I got it now.  There have always been guys named Karl, including
Beethoven's trouble of a nephew.  Barrault played that character. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: FideLeo on June 07, 2007, 10:04:13 AM
LOL!!!!!

Never mind  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 07, 2007, 10:05:57 AM
Never mind  ;D

You are a good sport fl.   :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: FideLeo on June 07, 2007, 10:17:13 AM
You are a good sport fl.   :)

I have actually found the Stooges to be quite irritating.  Max Brothers suit me
better ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 07, 2007, 12:01:34 PM
Well, to get back on track -  ;) :)  I have been listening to a LOT of Beethoven today - received the 2 Brilliant Box sets below (2-CDs per box @ only $10 each set!):

Complete String Trios & String Quintets w/ Zurich String Quintet & String Trio (same performers) - these are mostly early works in a more 'classic' style (Haydn & Mozart influences), and played by the Zurich groups in a more reserved fashion; well done, refined string playing, and excellent recorded sound.  CLICK on the images for comments from several different sources; my only other recording of the Trios is w/ Grumiaux, which I've had & enjoyed for years (but nearly twice the price @ Amazon!) - the Leopold group on Hyperion has also received great reviews in the Trios -  :D

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/515BKA8ZCZL._AA240_.jpg) (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=89410)  (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/519QE55K6NL._AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Quintets-Complete-Mikayel-Hakhnazaryan/dp/B000F6ZIBK/ref=pd_bxgy_m_img_b/102-8474919-9564165?ie=UTF8&qid=1181235146&sr=1-8)  (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/213N3FQVGHL._AA132_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 07, 2007, 01:33:33 PM
George offers some comments on pianist  Maria Yudina's BEETHOVEN here  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1395.0/topicseen.html)

Does she play like a tractor or a tempest?  Read and find out ……..

(http://www.russiandvd.com/store/assets/product_images/imgs/front/36396.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 07, 2007, 01:35:22 PM
Well, to get back on track - 

SonicMan ....... I like the way you derail a thread, and then neatly, seamlessly get it back on track!  Very nice!  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 07, 2007, 02:09:52 PM
SonicMan ....... I like the way you derail a thread, and then neatly, seamlessly get it back on track!  Very nice!  :D

D Minor - thought that you would like that 'transition' -  ;)  Dave  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 07, 2007, 02:42:12 PM
D Minor - thought that you would like that 'transition' -  ;)  Dave  :D

....... please remind me to extend you a similar courtesy when I derail one of your threads! ....... :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 07, 2007, 02:59:04 PM
....... please remind me to extend you a similar courtesy when I derail one of your threads! ....... :D

Hell, you're derailing this one right now!  :o

Today I got the original version of Fidelio ("Lenore" - 1805). This one here (Staatskapelle Dresden / Blomstedt):

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/501/5018024.jpg)

I have always wanted an opportunity to compare with the end result of 1814, and finally found what purports to be a nice, complete version. Anyone familiar with it?   :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 08, 2007, 03:10:51 AM

Found this info today about the Haskil/Grumiaux Violin sonatas: (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=&sql=43:153860~T1)
_____________________________

In early 2007, both Decca and Brilliant released three disc sets of Beethoven's complete Violin Sonatas played by Belgian violinist Arthur Grumiaux and Romanian pianist Clara Haskil. Recorded in 1956 and 1957 and originally released on LP by Philips, these performances have stood the test of time. Grumiaux's effortless virtuosity, elegant phrasing and impeccable intonation coupled with Haskil's soul and sympathetic if not always note-perfect accompaniment made for one of the most instantly appealing collections of these central repertoire works, and despite its age, anyone looking for a complete set should certainly consider this set.

Oddly enough, though, the sound seems to be quite different in both issues. Decca's is big and boomy with a healthy dollop of reverb while Brilliant's sound is dry and distant with minimal, or at least minimized, reverb. This is particularly odd since Philip's original LP sound was slightly dry but deep but a reasonable amount of reverb. Thus, those interested in Grumiaux and Haskel's Beethoven Sonatas are presented with two very different sonic alternatives in these re-issues; which they choose is, of course, up to the individual -- although old timers may decide to stick with their scratched LPs.

-All Music Guide
____________________________


I have the new Decca version and agree with the reviewers comments. Looks like this may be a case where Brilliant does a better job. I must say that I am upset and surprised by this. :-\



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 08, 2007, 03:15:13 AM
Hell, you're derailing this one right now!  :o

Ironically (and interestingly), the very act of pointing out a derailment is, itself, a derailment ........  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 08, 2007, 03:41:57 PM
(http://www.musicandarts.com/CDpages/CD4049h.gif)


Just read in the Wilhelm Furtwangler Society UK Newsletter that the 6 recordings of LvB symphonies featured in the above box are, with only one exception in their opinion, the very best available performances of each symphony that Furtwangler ever recorded. They give each recording a 0 to 4 star rating.

For #3, they cite 9 versions and rate the M&A the highest, at 4 stars.

For #4 they cite 6 versions and rate the M&A the highest, at 3 stars. (None of them got 5 stars)

For #5 they cite 11 versions and rate the M&A the highest, at 4 stars.

For #6 they cite 7 versions and rate the M&A second highest, at 3 stars (only because of the poor sound).   

For #7, they cite 5 versions and rate the M&A the highest, at 4 stars.

For #9, they cite 11 versions and rate the M&A the highest, at 4 stars.



Then I found this excerpt from a fanfare review about the transfers on the above set:

This is an important collection of Furtwängler's finest wartime Beethoven ?performances, well-transferred and generously fit onto four CDs. Music & Arts ?is selling it at the reasonable price of $39.92 (plus $3.00 shipping) on its ?website (www.musicandarts.com), and recommending $43.92 in stores. This ?certainly makes these performances available at a more reasonable price than ?the hard-to-find Tahra label, so the important question relates to the quality ?of the transfers. ?       
All of these performances have been available before, and on many labels, with ?four of the six having been released in a two-disc set by the same label (M&A ?CD-824) in different transfers. The new Furtwängler collector will simply want ?to know whether this is good enough to obtain, while the more experienced ?collector will want to know how it stacks up against previous releases of the ?same material. For the new collector, I think the advice is simple. If you ?don't have these performances in some other form, they are an essential part of ?the work of this conductor, and these transfers are good enough to warrant ?purchase. ?
...Maggi Payne has been responsible for some of the best transfer work Music & ?Arts has issued, and her results here are at a very high level. I performed ?direct comparisons with my favorite previous transfers, and these came close in ?each case, and exceeded the competition in some. If you have M&A CD-824, which ?contains the same performances of Symphonies Nos. 4, 5, 6, and 7, the transfers ?here are much clearer and cleaner, and would merit replacing the earlier ?release with this new one.... Interestingly, the transfers here are different ?even from Ms. Payne's work on Music & Arts 942, which is a complete Beethoven ?symphony cycle duplicating some of these performances. I don't know if the ?reason is that Music & Arts provided her with superior source material, or that ?she has simply refined her approach, but there is more bite and more clarity on ?this new set. The most consistent of other labels has been Tahra. Both M&A and Tahra are ?satisfying in different ways; Tahra provides a warmer sound, but M&A clarifies ?more detail and has more bite because of greater high frequency presence, and a ?bit less added reverb or "ambience." In the case of this famous Ninth, in fact, ?I find M&A's new transfer the finest yet published.... ?       
In addition to its fine sonic production, Music & Arts has provided ?stimulating notes taken from John Ardoin's excellent book The Furtwängler ?Record, and generally good documentation. You will, though, search long and ?hard before you find the listing for the soloists in the Ninth (it seems to ?only exist in Ardoin's comments, where the details of all of Furtwängler's ?recorded performances of the work are listed). ?       
This is, then, an extraordinary set of discs. It is generously filled (each ?disc is over seventy minutes) with high quality transfers of performances ?unique in the history of recorded sound, performances that will make every ?listener hear this music and think about music performance, in new ways. You ?might, in the end, find the intensity excessive, but you will certainly not be ?bored, and you just might wonder what it will take to again find conducting and ?orchestral playing so filled with a sense of event.


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 08, 2007, 04:24:16 PM
George,
According to Que, this may be the best Furtwangler 9th:

(http://www.tahra.com/img/couv/1003.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 08, 2007, 06:31:11 PM
George,
According to Que, this may be the best Furtwangler 9th:

(http://www.tahra.com/img/couv/1003.jpg)

From the aforementioned Furt Society newsletter:

Bayreuth August 9, 1954: Samy Habra has always considered this performance better than the 1951 Bayreuth [the other Furt LvB 9 that gets 4 stars]; unfortunately severe distortion makes the tape hard to listen to.

(Looks like they agree, though I don't think I want to hear a recording of lesser quality, with the M&A I'm already stretching my limit.)   :-\

 :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on June 08, 2007, 09:30:11 PM
From the aforementioned Furt Society newsletter:

Bayreuth August 9, 1954: Samy Habra has always considered this performance better than the 1951 Bayreuth [the other Furt LvB 9 that gets 4 stars]; unfortunately severe distortion makes the tape hard to listen to.

(Looks like they agree, though I don't think I want to hear a recording of lesser quality, with the M&A I'm already stretching my limit.)   :-\

 :)

George, I don't know what tape they are talking about, but the LvB 9th '54 on Tahra has NO distortion of any significance - I can assure you. The sound quality is even better than the '51 recording on EMI!

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 09, 2007, 04:56:14 AM
George, I don't know what tape they are talking about, but the LvB 9th '54 on Tahra has NO distortion of any significance - I can assure you. The sound quality is even better than the '51 recording on EMI!

Q

There's 2 from Aug '54. They aren't talking about the Aug 22 performance, they are referring to the:

From the aforementioned Furt Society newsletter:

Bayreuth August 9, 1954: Samy Habra has always considered this performance better than the 1951 Bayreuth [the other Furt LvB 9 that gets 4 stars]; unfortunately severe distortion makes the tape hard to listen to.

(Looks like they agree, though I don't think I want to hear a recording of lesser quality, with the M&A I'm already stretching my limit.)   :-\

 :)

 :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on June 09, 2007, 05:24:53 AM
There's 2 from Aug '54. They aren't talking about the Aug 22 performance, they are referring to the:

 :)

Ah, yes. Bayreuth! ;D Sorry for the confusion.

Well, note that the recording Bill pictured and is on Tahra is the Lucerne performance, and that's the one you'll need! :) (And is of outstanding sound quality - for a live performance of the '50s, of course)

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 09, 2007, 05:42:07 PM
Found this info today about the Haskil/Grumiaux Violin sonatas: (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=&sql=43:153860~T1)
_____________________________

Oddly enough, though, the sound seems to be quite different in both issues. Decca's is big and boomy with a healthy dollop of reverb while Brilliant's sound is dry and distant with minimal, or at least minimized, reverb. This is particularly odd since Philip's original LP sound was slightly dry but deep but a reasonable amount of reverb. Thus, those interested in Grumiaux and Haskel's Beethoven Sonatas are presented with two very different sonic alternatives in these re-issues; which they choose is, of course, up to the individual -- although old timers may decide to stick with their scratched LPs.

-All Music Guide
____________________________


I have the new Decca version and agree with the reviewers comments. Looks like this may be a case where Brilliant does a better job. I must say that I am upset and surprised by this. :-\



That is not good news!

Blast...I guess I'll be holding on to my older Philips set. :-\


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 09, 2007, 06:49:06 PM

That is not good news!

Blast...I guess I'll be holding on to my older Philips set. :-\

I thought Decca was a reputable company.... ???
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 10, 2007, 04:05:16 AM
Blast...I guess I'll be holding on to my older Philips set. :-\

And I won't be replacing my Zukerman/Barenboim and Mutter/Orkis.  :)

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 11, 2007, 03:49:11 AM
Beethoven Triple Concerto, released last month  :D

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VUTG0Cc2L._SS400_.jpg)

Concerto for Piano, Violin and Cello in C major, Op. 56 "Triple Concerto" by Ludwig van Beethoven
 
Performer:  Gautier Capuçon (Cello), Martha Argerich (Piano), Renaud Capuçon (Violin)
Conductor:  Alexandre Rabinovitch
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Flanders Symphony Orchestra

Symphony no 1 in D major, Op. 25 "Classical" by Sergei Prokofiev
 
Conductor:  Alexandre Rabinovitch
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Flanders Symphony Orchestra
 
Concerto for Piano no 1 in D flat major, Op. 10 by Sergei Prokofiev
 
Performer:  Martha Argerich (Piano)
Conductor:  Alexandre Rabinovitch
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Flanders Symphony Orchestra
 
Sonata for Violin and Piano no 1 in A minor, Op. 105 by Robert Schumann
 
Performer:  Martha Argerich (Piano), Renaud Capuçon (Violin)
 

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: op.110 on June 11, 2007, 04:14:32 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vV095E6BL._SS500_.jpg)

my favorite recording of the ninth
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: hornteacher on June 11, 2007, 05:11:15 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vV095E6BL._SS500_.jpg)

my favorite recording of the ninth

YES!  YES!  YES!  YES!!!!!!  That is a marvellous recording (and so few people ever mention it).  The 2nd and 4th movements especially are beyond phenomenal!  It's also a live recording and has a great "vibe" to it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 11, 2007, 05:46:45 PM
Beethoven Triple Concerto, released last month  :D

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VUTG0Cc2L._SS400_.jpg)


That looks like a dandy! And not just for Argerich. Gautier Capuçon is fast becoming one of my favorite cellists. He can both dig into the instrument and caress it at the same time. All with a warm, husky, singing tone that is pure delight.




Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mozart on June 11, 2007, 05:48:29 PM
Martha Argerich used to be hot man. See what smoking and aging does to a person? Ewww
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2007, 05:50:48 PM

my favorite recording of the ninth

Gosh, I hope you're right. I just bought it on your rec... :)

(always can use a new 9th, never have enough)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 11, 2007, 05:52:33 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vV095E6BL._SS500_.jpg)

my favorite recording of the ninth

I want ........ I want ........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 11, 2007, 06:00:29 PM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vV095E6BL._SS500_.jpg)

I want ........ I want ........

D,
I wonder if there is a discount if we get enough of us together and buy in bulk?

Gurn,
Is this in your stack of 18?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 11, 2007, 06:08:50 PM
Martha Argerich used to be hot man. See what smoking and aging does to a person? Ewww

Let that be a lesson to you.  $:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on June 11, 2007, 07:47:05 PM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GBQ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)

What do fellow GMGers think about this set? I think it's one of Karajan's best Beethoven cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on June 11, 2007, 11:10:25 PM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GBQ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)

What do fellow GMGers think about this set? I think it's one of Karajan's best Beethoven cycle.

It is one of several from Karajan that is good, yes.
The remastered set is IMO to be preferred, although this one is good too>
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 12, 2007, 02:59:08 AM
I wonder if there is a discount if we get enough of us together and buy in bulk?

Yeah, we should form a buying club .........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 12, 2007, 03:13:30 AM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vV095E6BL._SS500_.jpg)

D,
I wonder if there is a discount if we get enough of us together and buy in bulk?

Gurn,
Is this in your stack of 18?

Well, it will be by Monday... or maybe even in time for Sunday service.... :D

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 12, 2007, 03:31:28 AM
Well, it will be by Monday... or maybe even in time for Sunday service.... :D

8)

Gurn, FYI, there are no deliveries on Sunday ........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 03:55:31 AM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GBQ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)

What do fellow GMGers think about this set? I think it's one of Karajan's best Beethoven cycle.






Accept no substitutes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 12, 2007, 03:57:25 AM





Accept no substitutes.

Top-shelf.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 04:00:24 AM
And, from the Respectful Opposition:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/5158JXFZ8VL._AA240_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 04:00:41 AM
Of course, I don't mean there aren't other excellent, worthwhile recordings of these pieces. But if I was given one choice, this does it.

That written, I had many other recordings of this work, and I highly reccomend checking out at least a couple of interpretations, you might find one that is more personally appealing among them.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 04:05:29 AM
Of course, I don't mean there aren't other excellent, worthwhile recordings of these pieces. But if I was given one choice, this does it.

That written, I had many other recordings of this work, and I highly reccomend checking out at least a couple of interpretations, you might find one that is more personally appealing among them.

 0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: edward on June 12, 2007, 04:07:30 AM
Top-shelf.
In Britain, top-shelf can refer to pornographic magazines. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 04:08:16 AM
In Britain, top-shelf can refer to pornographic magazines. ;)

Barkeep, I want to buy that man a drink!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 12, 2007, 05:10:56 AM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GBQ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)

What do fellow GMGers think about this set? I think it's one of Karajan's best Beethoven cycle.

I disagree.


I say it's his best Beethoven cycle.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 05:12:10 AM
I like your sense of humor, George!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 05:12:37 AM
Barkeep, I want to buy that man some tempeh!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 12, 2007, 05:18:16 AM
Barkeep, I want to buy that man some tempeh!

 ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 05:20:59 AM
The worse 9th I've heard was the Muti-conducted effort. The boredom was insurmountable, even during the last movement.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 12, 2007, 05:23:32 AM
The worse 9th I've heard was the Muti-conducted effort. The boredom was insurmountable, even during the last movement.

I think what I hated about it was that the sound was very distant, like you had the cheapest seat in the hall. Perhaps that's why it was the cheapest version in the store.  ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on June 12, 2007, 05:23:49 AM
Barkeep, I want to buy that man some tempeh!

And a glass of Soja milk, added some fruitjuice. ;D
That's real tasty.
I drink it every day.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 12, 2007, 05:24:03 AM
The worse 9th I've heard was the Muti-conducted effort. The boredom was insurmountable, even during the last movement.

Well, if you made it all the way through to the last movement, then, apparently, it wasn't entirely insurmountable ........  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 05:31:03 AM
I think what I hated about it was that the sound was very distant, like you had the cheapest seat in the hall. Perhaps that's why it was the cheapest version in the store.  ::)




Hey, that's funny...I bought this on a compilation of full symphonies. The set had included a very good rendition of Profokiev's "Classical" (Mackerras I believe). The other two were a satisfactory rendition of Mendellssohn's "Classical" and a truly abominable "Surprise" Symphony.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 05:32:31 AM
Well, if you made it all the way through to the last movement, then, apparently, it wasn't entirely insurmountable ........  >:D


Remember the old joke:

Bertha:"The food here is horrible!"
Norbert: "Yes, and what small portions!"


That's twice this morning you brought a big smile to my face, D. That's two more than most people ever give me, so I am very grateful.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 05:33:03 AM
. . . a satisfactory rendition of Mendellssohn's "Classical" . . . .

I'm guessing you mean L'italiana . . . ?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 05:33:25 AM
D Minor the Bringer of Smiles
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 05:33:39 AM
"There oughta be a planet!"
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 12, 2007, 05:35:11 AM
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vV095E6BL._SS500_.jpg)

When I saw this one posted, I had never heard of it. So, like I usually do in that case, I checked my trusty guidebook: "3rd Ear for Classical." Though I certainly don't wish to start a quarrel, I feel it would be irresponsible of me to not report my findings.

Mehta leads a competent, nondescript performance that can be ignored; while getting great playing from his orchestra, they can't compete with the best.

In case your wondering, the reviewer's idea of "the best" are Bernstein's 2 recordings for DG, Abbado's on Sony, Leinsdorf on RCA, Reiner on RCA, Walter on Sony, Karajan '63 on DG, Stokowski on Decca, Kubelik on DG and Muti on Seraphim.     



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 12, 2007, 05:36:05 AM
I'm guessing you mean L'italiana . . . ?




Thanks, Karl, my fingers ran off on me...


That performance couldn't even ride on the jovial splendor of the "Faerie Dance".
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 12, 2007, 02:55:53 PM
In case your wondering, the reviewer's idea of "the best" are *** Leinsdorf on RCA ***

Tell that to Iago ........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 12, 2007, 03:02:37 PM
"3rd Ear for Classical."

I need this book.  Meanwhile, what are the recommendations for:

Missa Solemnis
Piano Sonata Cycle
PC's 4 and 5

Does anyone else have the book 3rd Ear for Classical?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 12, 2007, 04:03:14 PM
I need this book.  Meanwhile, what are the recommendations for:

Missa Solemnis - Klemperer, Karajan, Toscanini, Bohm, Harnoncourt

Piano Sonata Cycle - Annie Fischer, Backhaus, Kempff (mono), Brendel (Vox), Arrau (1960s set), Goode, Nat and Kuerti.

PC's 4- Serkin, Schnabel, Gilels, E. Fischer, Haskil, Curzon, Rubinstein, Arrau, Katchen, Kempff (Van Kempen), Brendel, Backhaus, Pollini, Perahia

and 5 - Horowitz/Reiner, Serkin/Ormandy, Serkin/Bernstein, Schnabel, Rubinstein/Krips, E. Fischer, Gieseking/Rother, Michelangeli/Celibidache, Curzon/Knappertsbusch, Kovacevich/Davis, Kissin/Levine, Cliburn/Reiner, Katz, Hess, Kempff/Van Kempen, Perahia, Uchida, Arrau, Levin/Gardiner and Immerseel/Weil.   
 
 :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on June 12, 2007, 04:20:11 PM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001GBQ.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)

What do fellow GMGers think about this set? I think it's one of Karajan's best Beethoven cycle.


Well, at least Karajan has his hair positioned for maximum effect! ;D ;D





Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2007, 04:23:26 PM

Well, at least Karajan has his hair positioned for maximum effect! ;D ;D

That is decidedly the Opus 67 'Do . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 12, 2007, 04:37:14 PM
That is decidedly the Opus 67 'Do . . . .

It's just plain wrong to have an op. 67 hairdo for an op. 125 cover .......

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 13, 2007, 02:42:48 AM
HvK was a maverick pioneer in the mix-'n'-match genre . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 13, 2007, 03:37:34 AM
It's just plain wrong to have an op. 67 hairdo for an op. 125 cover .......






Damn the blindness!!! Can't you see the heroic contemplation ;D?







Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 13, 2007, 04:16:42 AM
Did Mahler blunder when he reorchestrated LvB 9?  I haven't heard it ........

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/215SJ022T4L._AA130_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 13, 2007, 04:50:48 AM
LANG LANG ALERT ! ! !This is actually a good explanation of the slow movement of LvB's 4th Piano Concerto (ORCH = Gods of the Underworld; PIANO = Orpheus) ...... go to video box about 6 inches from top of page, and click on play, and jump to 2:40 ........ (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000OYC3FM/ref=amb_link_4829342_/002-2578474-8988060?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=right-1&pf_rd_r=0RWA2C12V0W9GD7G1AQP&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=288334401&pf_rd_i=573448)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 13, 2007, 04:51:15 AM
Did Mahler blunder when he reorchestrated LvB 9?  I haven't heard it ........

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/215SJ022T4L._AA130_.jpg)

Beyond question, he did. I have it on video by the Detroit Symphony / Jarvi. It is so overloaded instrument-wise that the beauty of the original is gone, leaving only a fat, steaming pile of notes on the stage... Tubas, d, friggin' tubas!  :o  :o

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 13, 2007, 04:57:01 AM
Beyond question, he did. I have it on video by the Detroit Symphony / Jarvi. It is so overloaded instrument-wise that the beauty of the original is gone, leaving only a fat, steaming pile of notes on the stage... Tubas, d, friggin' tubas!  :o  :o

8)

 :D  So you loved it, then!  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on June 14, 2007, 02:11:44 PM
Eroica a film about a symphony! Can it be done? I was wondering and now I know it's possible. BBC Classical Music Television did an outstanding job with making Beethoven's Eroica into a luscious film.

The real action is the playing of the symphony, one movement after the other, with a handfull of people adding interest and comments. It's all about Beethoven taking his latest work to a performance at the palace of Prince Lobkowitz in Vienna. The assembled orchestra gets the libretto, looks at it, mumbles and then starts playing, but only the first few notes because it's all  so different and bewildering. Now that's what I call sight-reading at it's extreme. Those musicians must have been outstanding. Beethoven does give some instructions and now and then conducts, but most of the time they have to rely on their concert master, who is played by a real life violinist of the Orchestra Révolutionnaire Romantique. Most of the members of the actor orchestra are members of John Eliot Gardiner's band. He does the real conducting.

Ian Hart does a great job acting the temperamental Beethoven and Tim Pigott-Smith of the old TV series The Jewel in the Crown plays a bad guy - again! - Count Dietrichstein, who doesn't think much of this new, confused piece of music. Yes, there is a pretty lady to take care of Ludwig's love interest but the Eroica is actually the star of the film. Very well done indeed!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on June 14, 2007, 02:27:02 PM
Illustration:
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 14, 2007, 04:38:35 PM
Eroica a film about a symphony! Can it be done? I was wondering and now I know it's possible. BBC Classical Music Television did an outstanding job with making Beethoven's Eroica into a luscious film.

The real action is the playing of the symphony, one movement after the other, with a handfull of people adding interest and comments. It's all about Beethoven taking his latest work to a performance at the palace of Prince Lobkowitz in Vienna. The assembled orchestra gets the libretto, looks at it, mumbles and then starts playing, but only the first few notes because it's all  so different and bewildering. Now that's what I call sight-seeing at it's extreme. Those musicians must have been outstanding. Beethoven does give some instructions and now and then conducts, but most of the time they have to rely on their concert master, who is played by a real life violinist of the Orchestra Révolutionnaire Romantique. Most of the members of the actor orchestra are members of John Eliot Gardiner's band. He does the real conducting.

Ian Hart does a great job acting the temperamental Beethoven and Tim Pigott-Smith of the old TV series The Jewel in the Crown plays a bad guy - again! - Count Dietrichstein, who doesn't think much of this new, confused piece of music. Yes, there is a pretty lady to take care of Ludwig's love interest but the Eroica is actually the star of the film. Very well done indeed!

Absolutely love this film!  Wish I knew the historical inaccuracies, if there are any.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on June 14, 2007, 05:13:40 PM
Ah! You have seen it and love it!  :)

I am not familiar with Beethoven's biographical data but probably our 'ancient' music adorer will know all about that. On the other hand, I think the poor lad does not have a DVD player, so he can't help us. The story about the baroness Ludwig wanted to marry is news to me, as is the fact she had to refuse him because of an Austrian law against her marriage to a commoner.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 14, 2007, 05:31:19 PM
Ah! You have seen it and love it!  :)

I am not familiar with Beethoven's biographical data but probably our 'ancient' music adorer will know all about that. On the other hand, I think the poor lad does not have a DVD player, so he can't help us. The story about the baroness Ludwig wanted to marry is news to me, as is the fact she had to refuse him because of an Austrian law against her marriage to a commoner.

Seen it....and bought it a few days later.  I wished it would of been longer, had the entire symphony, as it does, and then went on with more story.  Definitely a favorite here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 15, 2007, 02:24:32 AM
Another Eroica DVD worthy of purchase .........

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/4153-%2BqYLbL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Hector on June 15, 2007, 04:48:19 AM
Ah! You have seen it and love it!  :)

I am not familiar with Beethoven's biographical data but probably our 'ancient' music adorer will know all about that. On the other hand, I think the poor lad does not have a DVD player, so he can't help us. The story about the baroness Ludwig wanted to marry is news to me, as is the fact she had to refuse him because of an Austrian law against her marriage to a commoner.

No, no, no, she would lose her status if she married a commoner.

Her point was that she could not afford to do that what with her children and all.

This is one of the historical inacuracies put in to add to the dramatic tension, like wheeling on Haydn  at the end ("Papa").

It has lines like: "This changes music forever, doesn't it?"

Enjoyable tosh!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on June 15, 2007, 04:57:09 AM
No, no, no, she would lose her status if she married a commoner.


That's what the Austrian law I mentioned in my post is all about. She would also lose the custody of her four children.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 15, 2007, 04:57:39 AM
It has lines like: "This changes music forever, doesn't it?"

Quoth Harrison Ford on the set of Star Wars:

Quote from: Ford
You can write this crap, George, but you can't say it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 15, 2007, 05:57:45 AM
I'm doing my part to advertise Bogey's Beethoven-related threads (click on link below):

 LvB Lieder (http://www.marxist.com/images/stories/art/beethoven014.jpg)  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1550.0/topicseen.html)


Click on the link above ........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 06:12:36 AM
I'm doing my part to advertise Bogey's Beethoven-related threads

I'd like to help Bogey but as much as I love Lieder and Beethoven, I have not a single Beethoven Lied. I've been watching the thread, hoping to see some good recommendations.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 06:15:03 AM
Eroica a film about a symphony! Can it be done? I was wondering and now I know it's possible. BBC Classical Music Television did an outstanding job with making Beethoven's Eroica into a luscious film.

I bought this recently, along with Ken Russell's Mahler. I watched Mahler first and I'm still trying to recover from that! I'll probably watch Eroica this weekend.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 15, 2007, 06:15:55 AM
I watched Mahler first and I'm still trying to recover from that!

I could not possibly comment, Sarge  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 15, 2007, 06:17:44 AM
I bought this recently, along with Ken Russell's Mahler. I watched Mahler first and I'm still trying to recover from that! I'll probably watch Eroica this weekend.

Sarge




How was "Mahler"?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 06:21:42 AM



How was "Mahler"?

Uh... Stunning...but not in a good way  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on June 15, 2007, 06:34:12 AM
Still looking for Beethoven songs? I found this:


"Beethoven - Irish, Welsh and Scottish Songs
Sophie Daneman (soprano); Paul Agnew (tenor); Peter Harvey (baritone)
Alix Verzier (cello); Alessandro Moccia (violin); Jérôme Hantaï (fortepiano)
Naïve E8850 (texts and translations in English, French and German)

Far more pleasing to the music-lover in general is this selection from Beethoven's folksong settings. The three singers are all veterans of the baroque movement but nonetheless manage to convey a certain freshness. The selections are brilliantly contrasted so that one never tires, while Beethoven always amazes us with the variety he provides for the accompaniments. Singers and instrumentalists are attuned to every nuance, so that unalloyed delight is our reward."

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on June 15, 2007, 06:36:29 AM
This sounds even more promising:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.html?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B000MM1EUG&authorID=A21VR7M8O55EF6&store=yourstore&reviewID=R2K4AMDXPLZR4O&displayType=ReviewDetail
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 06:37:25 AM
How was "Mahler"?

I'd seen a few Ken Russell film biographies before: Savage Messiah, about the sculptor Henri Gaudier, and The Music Lovers, about Tchaikovsky. So I knew what to expect: liberties taken with the facts, over-the-top emotionalism, offensive images, sophomoric symbolism. In Mahler, Russell didn't disappoint those expections but carried them to an entirely new level.  ;D

Mahler's conversion to Christianity featured a leather clad and helmeted Cosima Wagner as Christian/Nazi/goddess, making Gustav literally jump through hoops. Mahler dreams of his death and funeral, with Alma dancing on his coffin during a song and dance production number, while Storm Troopers carry him to the crematorium. The final scene though, Mahler and Alma walking happily together and Mahler shouting joyously, "We're going to live forever" packs a real emotional punch because we know he's only got a week or so to live. And the soundtrack is great   ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 15, 2007, 06:40:45 AM
Still looking for Beethoven songs? I found this:


"Beethoven - Irish, Welsh and Scottish Songs
Sophie Daneman (soprano); Paul Agnew (tenor); Peter Harvey (baritone)
Alix Verzier (cello); Alessandro Moccia (violin); Jérôme Hantaï (fortepiano)
Naïve E8850 (texts and translations in English, French and German)

Far more pleasing to the music-lover in general is this selection from Beethoven's folksong settings. The three singers are all veterans of the baroque movement but nonetheless manage to convey a certain freshness. The selections are brilliantly contrasted so that one never tires, while Beethoven always amazes us with the variety he provides for the accompaniments. Singers and instrumentalists are attuned to every nuance, so that unalloyed delight is our reward."



Yes I am....and thank you very much!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 15, 2007, 06:42:20 AM
Yes I am....and thank you very much!

I posted some thoughts on your thread as well, Bill.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 15, 2007, 06:47:34 AM
I posted some thoughts on your thread as well, Bill.  :)

Got that one too George....at least there are some choices to be had.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 15, 2007, 06:48:39 AM
Got that one too George....at least there are some choices to be had.  :)

Yes, that Orfeo one would be first on my list.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 15, 2007, 06:51:03 AM
Just listen to this voice:

http://www.amazon.com/Salzburg-Festival-Live-Vol-Beethoven/dp/B00000599I/ref=sr_1_3/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181922549&sr=8-3 (http://www.amazon.com/Salzburg-Festival-Live-Vol-Beethoven/dp/B00000599I/ref=sr_1_3/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181922549&sr=8-3)

 :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on June 15, 2007, 06:56:31 AM
Just listen to this voice:

http://www.amazon.com/Salzburg-Festival-Live-Vol-Beethoven/dp/B00000599I/ref=sr_1_3/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181922549&sr=8-3 (http://www.amazon.com/Salzburg-Festival-Live-Vol-Beethoven/dp/B00000599I/ref=sr_1_3/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181922549&sr=8-3)

 :)

That is outstanding.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 15, 2007, 07:13:04 AM
Just listen to this voice:

http://www.amazon.com/Salzburg-Festival-Live-Vol-Beethoven/dp/B00000599I/ref=sr_1_3/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181922549&sr=8-3 (http://www.amazon.com/Salzburg-Festival-Live-Vol-Beethoven/dp/B00000599I/ref=sr_1_3/104-2949723-2736732?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1181922549&sr=8-3)

 :)

Yep, that voice ........  0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 15, 2007, 07:14:39 AM
And the soundtrack is great   ;D

 ;D  ;D  :D  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 15, 2007, 07:20:54 AM


Mahler's conversion to Christianity featured a leather clad and helmeted Cosima Wagner as Christian/Nazi/goddess, making Gustav literally jump through hoops. Mahler dreams of his death and burial, with Alma dancing on his coffin during a song and dance production number, while Storm Troopers carry him to the crematorium. Sarge






I think I'll pass on this. Thanks for the warning, Sarge.

That said, I'd like to heartily reccomend "What the Universe Tells Me"!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2007, 07:43:06 AM



I think I'll pass on this. Thanks for the warning, Sarge.

That said, I'd like to heartily reccomend "What the Universe Tells Me"!

Yes, I would like to see that.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on June 15, 2007, 07:49:30 AM
I'd seen a few Ken Russell film biographies before: Savage Messiah, about the sculptor Henri Gaudier, and The Music Lovers, about Tchaikovsky. So I knew what to expect: liberties taken with the facts, over-the-top emotionalism, offensive images, sophomoric symbolism. In Mahler, Russell didn't disappoint those expections but carried them to an entirely new level.  ;D

Parfois! Let Ken Russell be Ken Russell!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 16, 2007, 03:06:18 AM
Released June 12, 2007

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51icIc9bNqL._SS500_.jpg)

Release Date: 06/12/2007
Label:  Testament   Catalog #: 1406   Spars Code: n/a 
Composer:  Ludwig van Beethoven
Conductor:  Otto Klemperer
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Philharmonia Orchestra

Also releasing with Klemperer 1/8 4/5 Missa Solemnis
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 18, 2007, 05:07:46 AM
Released 6/12
Recorded 1971

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KjaMXAHpL._SS500_.jpg)

1.  Sonata for Piano no 8 in A minor, K 310 (300d) by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
 
Performer:  Emil Gilels (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: 1778; Paris, France
Date of Recording: 1971
 
2.  Variations (6) for Piano in F major on "Salve tu, Domine", K 398 (416e) by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
 
Performer:  Emil Gilels (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: 1783; Vienna, Austria
Date of Recording: 1971
 
3.  Fantasia for Piano in D minor, K 397 (385g) by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
 
Performer:  Emil Gilels (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: 1782; Vienna, Austria
Date of Recording: 1971

4.  Sonata for Piano no 21 in C major, Op. 53 "Waldstein" by Ludwig van Beethoven
 
Performer:  Emil Gilels (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: 1803-1804; Vienna, Austria
Date of Recording: 1971
 
5.  Sonata for Piano no 28 in A major, Op. 101 by Ludwig van Beethoven
 
Performer:  Emil Gilels (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: 1816; Vienna, Austria
Date of Recording: 1971  

 
6.  Songs without words, vol 6, Op. 67: no 4, Presto in C major "Spinning Song" by Felix Mendelssohn
 
Performer:  Emil Gilels (Piano)
Period: Romantic
Written: 1845; Germany
Date of Recording: 1971
 
7.  Nachtstücke (4) for Piano, Op. 23 by Robert Schumann
 
Performer:  Emil Gilels (Piano)
Period: Romantic
Written: 1839; Germany
Date of Recording: 1971
 
8.  Songs without words: Excerpt(s) by Felix Mendelssohn
 
Performer:  Emil Gilels (Piano)
Period: Romantic
Written: Germany
 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 18, 2007, 10:27:22 AM
Released 6/12

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QdqWWKgPL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 23, 2007, 09:33:19 AM
One of the clues to this Sunday New York Times crossword puzzle (acrostic) was:

COMPOSER WITH THE FINAL DYING WORDS: "Applaud, my friends, the comedy is over."

ANSWER: Beethoven
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on June 23, 2007, 09:37:57 AM
One of the clues to this Sunday New York Times crossword puzzle (acrostic) was:

COMPOSER WITH THE FINAL DYING WORDS: "Applaud, my friends, the comedy is over."

ANSWER: Beethoven

Cool.  8)

So I take it that portion of Immortal Beloved is historically accurate?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 23, 2007, 09:42:46 AM
So I take it that portion of Immortal Beloved is historically accurate?

Possibly.  At least there's some authority for the proposition!  :)

Needless to say, it's disputed as to (1) whether Beethoven said that; and (2) what it means.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DetUudslukkelige on June 24, 2007, 07:10:23 AM
Needless to say, it's disputed as to (1) whether Beethoven said that; and (2) what it means.

Strangely, a very similar quote was supposedly said by Caesar Augustus on his deathbed. I personally don't believe these romanticized views of people's final words, anyway, but if he really did say this, perhaps he drew some inspiration from Augustus?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 24, 2007, 07:19:04 AM
Possibly.  At least there's some authority for the proposition!  :)

Needless to say, it's disputed as to (1) whether Beethoven said that; and (2) what it means.



This quote seems about a historically verified as pretty much anything else LvB spoke. That is, it's generally considered to be true. The quote was made after his receiving of the last Rites, so many have questioned whether it referred to life itself, or Catholicism. The latter doesn't quite hold up as well as the former (though both are not without reference to his other quotes of the time)...it's hard to be convinced that Beethoven was too much of a lapsed Catholic when he publicly stated the Missa Solemnis was his best piece.  Even many Roman Catholics would argue for the 9th Symphony, Piano Concerto #5, or op. 131 as being his pinnacle. (You know which work this RC picks!)

I realize that the logic behind such an assertion is very faulty, and that's coming from a grievously biased person.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: edward on June 24, 2007, 07:23:04 AM
Just to muddy the waters a bit, I'm an atheist and think that the Missa solemnis is certainly his greatest work for large forces. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 24, 2007, 07:37:46 AM
Just to muddy the waters a bit, I'm an atheist and think that the Missa solemnis is certainly his greatest work for large forces. ;)




The MS is by far my own favorite chorale work.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: M forever on June 24, 2007, 07:47:41 AM
Strangely, a very similar quote was supposedly said by Caesar Augustus on his deathbed. I personally don't believe these romanticized views of people's final words, anyway, but if he really did say this, perhaps he drew some inspiration from Augustus?

I think you are right, many "last words" by famous people are very likely authored to sound good and somehow meaningful, and many of them are of very dubious authenticity or very obviously invented by someone else.

In Beethoven's case, his last words were recorded by Anton Schindler whose credibility is not always unquestionable either, but his account of Beethoven's final days appears to be very honest and realistic, brutally realistic even.

However, what Haffner said here has, in the best Catholic tradition, absolutely nothing to do with the recorded evidence, true or not.

According to which, Beethoven's last words were completely different, namely "Schade, schade, zu spät!"
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 24, 2007, 07:51:34 AM
However, what Haffner said here has, in the best Catholic tradition, absolutely nothing to do with the recorded evidence, true or not.





Yes.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 25, 2007, 06:48:21 AM
I personally don't believe these romanticized views of people's final words,

Supposedly, Mahler's final deathbed utterance was MOZART .........


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 25, 2007, 06:50:47 AM
Just to muddy the waters a bit, I'm an atheist and think that the Missa solemnis is certainly his greatest work for large forces. ;)

Yeah, the reason I love Missa has nothing to do with religion .........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Haffner on June 25, 2007, 06:54:34 AM
Supposedly, Mahler's final deathbed utterance was MOZART .........







Mozartl, or little Mozart. I guess Mahler had seen a vision of little Mozart playing the piano. Something one might find in a vision of heaven...imagined or not.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on June 25, 2007, 10:55:40 AM
Yeah, the reason I love Missa has nothing to do with religion .........

This is quite off-topic, but what the hey. D, is the excerpt from Bach's Toccata and Fugue in your signature arranged? Or is it the original organ score?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 25, 2007, 12:51:12 PM
This is quite off-topic, but what the hey.

Hey, any question regarding a composition in d minor  is always within topic!  :D

is the excerpt from Bach's Toccata and Fugue in your signature arranged? Or is it the original organ score?

Very good question.  Although it is substantially similar to the original organ score, it is, in fact, a transcription / arrangement (not sure for what instrument(s)).

CLICK HERE AND THEN CLICK ON THE LINK TO OPEN PDF FILE  (http://www.free-scores.com/download-sheet-music.php?pdf=1631)

I actually prefer the full organ score, but I couldn't readily find one that fits within my signature ........  :'(  :'(
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on June 25, 2007, 01:03:57 PM
Do you think pianoforte would be a wild guess? Concerning the fact that all the symbols and indications written on the arrangement can be possibly played on one. Especially the pedal...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: MishaK on June 25, 2007, 02:30:37 PM
Do you think pianoforte would be a wild guess? Concerning the fact that all the symbols and indications written on the arrangement can be possibly played on one. Especially the pedal...

It looks very much like the piano transcription that I played.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on June 25, 2007, 02:35:54 PM
It looks very much like the piano transcription that I played.

There you go.  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on June 26, 2007, 03:40:42 AM
There you go.  ;)

Well ........ There it is ........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 06, 2007, 02:10:14 PM
Krystian Zimerman plays LvB PC #3

 1/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfstcHZINYE)

 2/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QagnhgnCMuY)

 3/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDRlJMrYnT4)

 4/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YlU-z066Mc)

 5/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwvmoKFsjXM)

 6/6   (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5AebVt_Tcc)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: scottscheule on July 06, 2007, 07:08:17 PM
My current listening project is O'Conor's complete Beethoven sonatas.  I really love them all--though some are a bit disappointing next to others.  Who's got a favorite Beethoven piano sonata, folks?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on July 07, 2007, 03:54:05 AM
My current listening project is O'Conor's complete Beethoven sonatas.  I really love them all--though some are a bit disappointing next to others.  Who's got a favorite Beethoven piano sonata, folks?

A very tough call, but I'd have to say Op. 110.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on July 07, 2007, 07:47:40 AM
Krystian Zimerman plays LvB PC #3

 1/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfstcHZINYE)

 2/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QagnhgnCMuY)

 3/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDRlJMrYnT4)

 4/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YlU-z066Mc)

 5/6  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwvmoKFsjXM)

 6/6   (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5AebVt_Tcc)


Thanks! :D :D :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 07, 2007, 10:02:35 AM
Who's got a favorite Beethoven piano sonata, folks?

Sonato No. 8 In C Minor, Op.13 "Pathetique
Sonato No.14 In C-Sharp Minor, Op.27 No.2 "Moonlight"
Sonata No. 17 In D Minor, op. 31 No. 2 "Tempest"
Sonato No.21 In C Major, Op.53 "Waldstein
Sonato No.23 In F Minor, Op.57 "Appassionata
Sonato No.28 In A Major, Op.101 
Sonato No.29 In B-Flat Major, Op.106 ("Hammerklavier")
Sonato No.30 In E Major, 109 
Sonato No.31 In A-Flat Major, Op.110 
Sonato No.32 In C Minor, Op.111 

Of all these, the Hammer is probably my favorite (thanks to the final movement), but I'm finding hidden treasures in op's 109, 110, and 111 ........  0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Scriptavolant on July 07, 2007, 04:10:12 PM
Who's got a favorite Beethoven piano sonata, folks?

Op. 109 absolutely.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Rod Corkin on July 08, 2007, 12:04:28 AM

5. Do you consider Beethoven to be a "classical" (classical era) or "romantic" (romantic era) composer?




In the past I referred to Beethoven as a 'Quasi-Baroque Classicist', ie the forms are Classical but the emotion and sentiments to my mind harks back to an earlier time. Even Mozart at times sounds more Romantic than Beethoven to me, and certainly Beethoven's contemporaries like Weber were proto-romanticists in a different world from what Beethoven was doing.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: M forever on July 08, 2007, 12:34:13 AM
Obviously, you have no clue at all what the (rather vague anyway) terms "baroque", "classical" or "romantic" actually mean. Those have nothing to do with what you perceive as their "emotional" content. Weber and Beethoven are ctually fairly close musically and also "emotionally" in many respects. Beethoven's dynamic treatment and development of ideas expressed through music doesn't "hark" back to anything at all. That actually made him a very "progressive" composer, and that also left a lo of traces in the compositional substance. Which is obviously a completely inaccessible subject for you since you apparently can even read music and understand simple musical parameters.

Yes, I know, you have all Beethoven recordings ever released, and also a Ferrari, but all that doesn't help you with your understanding of these things, obviously. You probably can't even pronounce Beethoven's name properly (no, it doesn't sound like "beetle" and "oven"). What a tragic love you have for that music, completely one-sided. You have never really listened to it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Rod Corkin on July 08, 2007, 08:09:23 AM
Obviously, you have no clue at all what the (rather vague anyway) terms "baroque", "classical" or "romantic" actually mean. Those have nothing to do with what you perceive as their "emotional" content. Weber and Beethoven are ctually fairly close musically and also "emotionally" in many respects. Beethoven's dynamic treatment and development of ideas expressed through music doesn't "hark" back to anything at all. That actually made him a very "progressive" composer, and that also left a lo of traces in the compositional substance. Which is obviously a completely inaccessible subject for you since you apparently can even read music and understand simple musical parameters.

Yes, I know, you have all Beethoven recordings ever released, and also a Ferrari, but all that doesn't help you with your understanding of these things, obviously. You probably can't even pronounce Beethoven's name properly (no, it doesn't sound like "beetle" and "oven"). What a tragic love you have for that music, completely one-sided. You have never really listened to it.

The above is all absolute nonsense, even the reference to the Ferrari, I made that story up for gullible obnoxious people like yourself. I mentioned nothing about Beethoven's dynamic treatment harking back to anything, I said this on the sentiment and emotional level only. Obviously the language of Beethoven is often quite different, though much of his late period output is heavily influenced by Baroque and even earlier sources. If you think Beethoven and Weber have anything musical in common you must be deaf, in fact Weber was highly critical of Beethoven's music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: M forever on July 08, 2007, 09:48:02 AM
That doesn't matter. They were both children of their time, and they have a lot of stylistical elements in common, the melodic structure, the tone of the music, even if thy chose to develop different techniques for their different aims.
But that is something which apparently totally eludes you. It is something that you can only understand if you develop a feeling for our culture which you obviously don't have, a deeper feeling for the idiomatic elements in music. Just like Goethe and Schiller are very different writers with very different styles, yet they have a lot in common - not surprisingly, since they came from the same cultural background (in case you didn't know, those were German writers).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Don on July 08, 2007, 09:56:55 AM
If you think Beethoven and Weber have anything musical in common you must be deaf, in fact Weber was highly critical of Beethoven's music.

Then I must also be deaf.  When I listen to Weber, I often find similarities with Beethoven's music. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: M forever on July 08, 2007, 10:11:06 AM
Of course. They spoke the same language, as well as the same musical language, and both of them sound extremely "German", for lack of a better word, in their typical phrase structure, and there is also something plain and matter of fact to the general tone, something which they both have in common very much, and they develop complex statements from those simple elements. That totally mirrors the "feel" of the German language which is fairly plain and actually not that melodic as such, but it develops its melodic context from the very long and complex phrase structures. All that is mirrored very obviously in both Beethoven's and Weber's music, and that of many of their "lesser" contemporaries. Plus both of them tried to be "accessible", understandable, they wanted to be "popular" not necessarily in the modern sense of the word, but in the sense of speaking directly to the people. Which they both did very successful in their different ways, as we know.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: scottscheule on July 08, 2007, 05:27:16 PM
Sonato No. 8 In C Minor, Op.13 "Pathetique" 
Sonato No.14 In C-Sharp Minor, Op.27 No.2 "Moonlight"
Sonata No. 17 In D Minor, op. 31 No. 2 "Tempest"
Sonato No.21 In C Major, Op.53 "Waldstein" 
Sonato No.23 In F Minor, Op.57 "Appassionata" 
Sonato No.28 In A Major, Op.101 
Sonato No.29 In B-Flat Major, Op.106 ("Hammerkiavier")
Sonato No.30 In E-Flat Major, 109 
Sonato No.31 In A-Flat Major, Op.110 
Sonato No.32 In C Minor, Op.111 

Of all these, the Hammer is probably my favorite (thanks to the final movement), but I'm finding hidden treasures in op's 109, 110, and 111 ........  0:)


A fine list.  My only quibble is, I believe the Op.109 is in E, not E-flat (I suppose you want everything as close to D minor as possible).
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 08, 2007, 07:37:05 PM
A fine list.  My only quibble is, I believe the Op.109 is in E, not E-flat

My God ........ how utterly reckless of me ........  >:D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 08, 2007, 07:37:57 PM
(I suppose you want everything as close to D minor as possible).

YES!   :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 09, 2007, 07:51:42 AM
Who's got a favorite Beethoven piano sonata, folks?

When Hélène Grimaud is making love to Op.109, that's my favorite sonata. Otherwise, Op.110...and I still have a nostalgic attachment to the Pathétique, the first Beethoven Sonata I ever heard (Mom used to play it for me).

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: scottscheule on July 09, 2007, 08:28:44 AM
When Hélène Grimaud is making love to Op.109, that's my favorite sonata. Otherwise, Op.110...and I still have a nostalgic attachment to the Pathétique, the first Beethoven Sonata I ever heard (Mom used to play it for me).

Sarge

Nothing to be ashamed of--famous pieces are famous for a reason. 

I like the Pastoral because I've worked at it a few times--or maybe I've worked at it a few times because I like it.  Every movement's a jewel.

I've also got an attachment to the quirky No.18.  Quite a scherzo.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Florestan on July 09, 2007, 08:32:14 AM
I still have a nostalgic attachment to the Pathétique, the first Beethoven Sonata I ever heard.

Sarge

Hey, here at this end it's exactly the same. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on July 09, 2007, 05:35:03 PM
When Hélène Grimaud is making love to Op.109, that's my favorite sonata. Otherwise, Op.110...and I still have a nostalgic attachment to the Pathétique, the first Beethoven Sonata I ever heard (Mom used to play it for me).

Sarge

Who do you like in Op. 110?

I love the comment about your Mom.  :)

I still have a very strong preference for the Appassionata sonata. The first and only time I heard it live, was in a small hall that literally felt like it was shaking during certain passages.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 11, 2007, 02:24:57 AM
I still have a very strong preference for the Appassionata sonata. The first and only time I heard it live, was in a small hall that literally felt like it was shaking during certain passages.

The Appassionata certainly can be an amazing experience .........

     Gilels Appassionata  mvt 1    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joINnT_ncVc)

     Rubinstein Appassionata mvt. 1      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6qO1e2WmbA)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 12, 2007, 02:57:28 PM
     Arrau Appassionata mvt 1      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klwk1I-m1bk)


     Arrau Appassionata mvt 2      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEp7xnfHBH8)


     Arrau Appassionata mvt 3      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNYYwjWBR7E)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: scottscheule on July 12, 2007, 07:23:45 PM
Listening this time around, I'm developing some new faves--mainly because I've gotten bored of the old faves.

New fave 1: No.3 in C, Op.2/3:

What's this?  Some chromatic third relationships?  A sudden A-flat chord out of nowhere in the coda of the first movement (yes, I know, it's a deceptive cadence in the minor mode--still out of nowhere)?  E major for the second (with a flash of sudden C tonality towards the end?)

But the last two movements are the jewels, with a Bach invention-esque scherzo followed by a really fun rondo. 

New fave 2: No.6 in F, Op.10/2:

This is just fun.  There's a bee-bopping closing theme in the first movement, a Chopin-esque second in the parallel minor, and finally another Bach invention-esque Presto to close it.

New fave 3: No.7 in D, Op.10/3

The first movement is really fun from the start, with a complete organic feel borne of its four note motive.  It's in a very weird sonata-form, that seems to have one or two themes too many, balanced with a brief development, and a driving coda.

Second movement is gorgeously melodramatic.

Third movement is adequate, but the a fourth is killer rondo with a (constantly mutating) theme that is best described as an invitation to dance.

I'm still going through the early sonatas.  And the No.12 never did a lot for me--though I do like the II and IV movements.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on July 13, 2007, 06:54:30 AM
Quote from: capod'uovo
He composed almost romantic symphonies.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on July 15, 2007, 06:17:13 AM
How would Beethoven's keyboard music sound on fortepiano?  :)

Check some clips that I have uploaded of Paul Komen's recordings here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,145.msg56363.html#msg56363).

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 17, 2007, 03:24:15 AM
How would Beethoven's keyboard music sound on fortepiano?  :)

Check some clips that I have uploaded of Paul Komen's recordings here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,145.msg56363.html#msg56363).

Q

Waldstein sounds very nice .........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Scriptavolant on July 19, 2007, 03:54:35 PM
Yeah, most of us need a collective C Major Mass shot in the arm: a very often neglected masterpiece.

This bad boy is a bargain:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/71/74/820c024128a09b8bbaf2a010.L.jpg)

I've got that CD. I'm listening to it these days, particularly focusing on the Gloria. Lately I'm reconciling with Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on July 19, 2007, 06:29:50 PM
I've got that CD. I'm listening to it these days, particularly focusing on the Gloria. Lately I'm reconciling with Beethoven.

What a horrible portrait of the great LvB...God why don't they stick with the "Heroic" one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 20, 2007, 11:10:57 AM
What a horrible portrait of the great LvB...God why don't they stick with the "Heroic" one.

But what if that was how Beethoven actually looked?!  For all we know, that could be the most accurate portrait of LvB ever produced ..........  :o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Scriptavolant on July 20, 2007, 12:20:08 PM
It is known that Ludwig Van wasn't an Adonis really. I think that that portrait is realistical. Furthermore he was only 1,60 m (5 feet 3 inches) tall.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: M forever on July 20, 2007, 05:33:31 PM
But what if that was how Beethoven actually looked?!  For all we know, that could be the most accurate portrait of LvB ever produced ..........  :o

As the most accurate portait of Beethoven is usually considered Klein's sculpture based on the life mask he made of his face in 1812.

(http://www.art-bin.com/bilder/mask.jpg)(http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms_upload/media/106/id3610.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on July 20, 2007, 05:39:20 PM

Wow! Backhaus does look a lot like Beethoven: 



(http://www.art-bin.com/bilder/mask.jpg)(http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=67760&rendTypeId=4)(http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B00000IP3T.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)(http://www.art-bin.com/bilder/mask.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Maciek on July 24, 2007, 03:21:10 PM
Actually, George, I think you look a bit like Beethoven too!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on July 24, 2007, 04:15:26 PM
Actually, George, I think you look a bit like Beethoven too!

 0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mozart on July 24, 2007, 04:18:54 PM
I feel a little strange starring at beethovens bust.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on July 24, 2007, 04:20:46 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on July 24, 2007, 09:34:41 PM
I feel a little strange starring at beethovens bust.

That's a bit messed up  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on July 25, 2007, 05:09:31 AM
That's a bit messed up  ;D

That's Mozart.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on July 25, 2007, 10:55:46 AM
 CLICK HERE FOR: Menuhin performing LvB's Violin Concerto (w/Colin Davis) -- 1st movement.   (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z5a-tLV7IY)

1962 Stereo (B/W)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/416WRFTPPJL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on July 26, 2007, 12:58:56 AM
That's Mozart.

Very true rofl ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 01, 2007, 01:33:02 PM
 LvB VC performed by Joshua Bell  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1ytfIArGt4&mode=related&search=)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on August 01, 2007, 04:03:00 PM
LvB VC performed by Joshua Bell  (http://bellbites.com)

NOOOOOO!  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on August 01, 2007, 04:04:48 PM
One consistent effect the Elgarwocky thread has on me, especially with these weird notions that Elgar's orchestration is the wonder of the West, is . . . I want to listen to Beethoven more  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: scottscheule on August 01, 2007, 07:22:38 PM
One consistent effect the Elgarwocky thread has on me, especially with these weird notions that Elgar's orchestration is the wonder of the West, is . . . I want to listen to Beethoven more  8)

He does make me curious about Elgar's works--but, as he's a minor composer, I'm afraid I won't be able to listen to him until bigger names are out of the way.

I'm partial to the Gardiner cycle of the Beethoven symphonies.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on August 02, 2007, 02:40:14 AM
--but, as he's a minor composer, I'm afraid I won't be able to listen to him until bigger names are out of the way.

I like your sense of humor!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on August 02, 2007, 02:42:30 AM
Too bad corkin' Rod took off in a huff; he'd have plenty of sound-files to link of all the WoO's we need to wade through before we get to such also-rans as Elgar   8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 06, 2007, 08:47:46 AM
One consistent effect the Elgarwocky thread has on me, especially with these weird notions that Elgar's orchestration is the wonder of the West, is . . . I want to listen to Beethoven more  8)

 Karl, my sentiments exactly.  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,72.msg65316.html#msg65316)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 06, 2007, 02:15:58 PM
 Wilhelm Kempff performing LvB's Tempest Finale in D Minor  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfjD-DQ5REk)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on August 06, 2007, 03:55:54 PM
Wilhelm Kempff performing LvB's Tempest Finale in D Minor  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfjD-DQ5REk)

Thanks for this!

 8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 07, 2007, 08:54:50 AM
Thanks for this!

 8)

One of my favorite LvB finales!  0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 07, 2007, 08:55:32 AM
This is a week old …… and I’m sure it is infringing on someone’s copyright, so get it while it’s hot.

This symphony (and this performance) induce goosebumps.  Electrifying.

And notice the horseshit orchestration …… Beethoven could have learned from Elgar.

     LvB 7 Carlos Kleiber  (1st mvt pt. 1)     (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dut8RKaaY5E)

     2/4 (1st mvt pt. 2)      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0cJpbuiyn8&mode=related&search=)

     3/4 (Presto)     (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8hKrmyMgsQ&mode=related&search=)

     4/4 (finale)      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqd8N_khDPg&mode=related&search=)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DetUudslukkelige on August 07, 2007, 03:34:05 PM
And notice the horseshit orchestration …… Beethoven could have learned from Elgar.

And yet for some reason, I'm actually not unhappy that he didn't. :P Seriously, though, I think that video is enough to clear up any doubts that Beethoven was a good orchestrator. Or, at least, I don't know why it shouldn't. But while we're on the subject, has anyone heard Mahler's 1895 re-orchestration of Beethoven's 9th? Any opinions? I'm intrigued by the idea, and if I could choose one composer to do it, Mahler would be a good candidate, but I would like to hear what others think about it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 07, 2007, 03:48:57 PM
And yet for some reason, I'm actually not unhappy that he didn't. :P Seriously, though, I think that video is enough to clear up any doubts that Beethoven was a good orchestrator. Or, at least, I don't know why it shouldn't. But while we're on the subject, has anyone heard Mahler's 1895 re-orchestration of Beethoven's 9th? Any opinions? I'm intrigued by the idea, and if I could choose one composer to do it, Mahler would be a good candidate, but I would like to hear what others think about it.

I have it on video by the Detroit Symphony / Jarvi. I gather Mahler used to work for them.

I like my Beethoven lean and mean. This is anything but that. Every part is doubled, tripled, quadrupled, whatever. It reeks of excess, IMO.

If you like music (any music) performed in Late Romantic, totally OTT style, this is a good launching off point. I wonder how Beethoven would have handled the tubas?   :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: scottscheule on August 07, 2007, 06:57:32 PM
I have it on video by the Detroit Symphony / Jarvi. I gather Mahler used to work for them.

I like my Beethoven lean and mean. This is anything but that. Every part is doubled, tripled, quadrupled, whatever. It reeks of excess, IMO.

If you like music (any music) performed in Late Romantic, totally OTT style, this is a good launching off point. I wonder how Beethoven would have handled the tubas?   :)

8)

I heard Slatkin do the Mahler 'Eroica' and it didn't do much for me.  It lost some of its crispness.  But I prefer keeping things as close to the composer's intentions as possible.

Why are all of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas so damn good?  My recent discovery has been the second movement of the Op.111, a fascinating theme and variations.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mozart on August 07, 2007, 07:07:48 PM
One of my favorite LvB finales!  0:)

Right under the 7th  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mozart on August 07, 2007, 07:09:28 PM
This is a week old …… and I’m sure it is infringing on someone’s copyright, so get it while it’s hot.

This symphony (and this performance) induce goosebumps.  Electrifying.

And notice the horseshit orchestration …… Beethoven could have learned from Elgar.

     LvB 7 Carlos Kleiber  (1st mvt pt. 1)     (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dut8RKaaY5E)

     2/4 (1st mvt pt. 2)      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0cJpbuiyn8&mode=related&search=)

     3/4 (Presto)     (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8hKrmyMgsQ&mode=related&search=)

     4/4 (finale)      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqd8N_khDPg&mode=related&search=)



He is either having fun, or a seizure!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 15, 2007, 07:57:31 AM
Beethoven - Sonata No. 32 in C minor, 1st movt - Richter  http://www.youtube.com/v/ulvJU85U_gA

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 15, 2007, 08:05:40 AM
Well, the above flash insert didn't seem to work, so click here (yeah, the old fashioned way) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulvJU85U_gA)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 15, 2007, 08:12:32 AM
     Beethoven - Sonata No. 32 in C minor, 2nd mvt Part 1-Richter      (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m68R7MezFcU)

http://www.youtube.com/v/m68R7MezFcU
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 15, 2007, 08:15:20 AM
     Beethoven - Sonata No. 32 in C minor, 2nd mvt Part 2-Richter       (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIBZqAlAVC8)

http://www.youtube.com/v/zIBZqAlAVC8
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Brewski on August 15, 2007, 08:37:21 AM
Beethoven - Sonata No. 32 in C minor, 1st movt - Richter  http://www.youtube.com/v/ulvJU85U_gA



Hooray, you got it to work! :D

--Bruce
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 15, 2007, 08:43:50 AM
Hooray, you got it to work! :D

--Bruce

Yes, thanks!  :D

(((NB: it does take about 15 seconds for the YOUTUBE image to load ..... )))
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 16, 2007, 05:58:37 PM
Released on 8/14/2007

Richter The Master Vol 4 - Beethoven

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/99/998006.jpg)

1.  Sonata for Piano no 18 in E flat major, Op. 31 no 3 by Ludwig van Beethoven
 
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: 1802; Vienna, Austria
   
 
 
2.  Rondo for Piano in C major, Op. 51 no 1 by Ludwig van Beethoven
 
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: ?1797; Vienna, Austria
   
 
 
3.  Rondo for Piano in G major, Op. 51 no 2 by Ludwig van Beethoven
 
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: ?1798; Vienna, Austria
   
 
 
4.  Sonata for Piano no 28 in A major, Op. 101 by Ludwig van Beethoven
 
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)
Period: Classical
Written: 1816; Vienna, Austria
   
 
 
5.  Trio for Piano and Strings no 7 in B flat major, Op. 97 "Archduke" by Ludwig van Beethoven
 
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano), Mikhail Kopelman (Violin), Valentin Berlinsky (Cello)
Period: Classical
Written: 1810-1811; Vienna, Austria
   
 
 
6.  Quintet for Piano, Oboe, Clarinet, Bassoon and Horn in E flat major, Op. 16 by Ludwig van Beethoven
 
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Moragues Woodwind Quintet members
Period: Classical
Written: 1796; Vienna, Austria
   
 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 16, 2007, 05:59:37 PM
Richter, baby!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on August 16, 2007, 06:01:03 PM
Oooooo!!!!!!!  :o

(thanks for the heads up)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 16, 2007, 06:06:25 PM
Oooooo!!!!!!!  :o

(thanks for the heads up)

Richter, baby!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on August 16, 2007, 06:15:05 PM
Hold on, now - One thing I just noticed, by looking at Trovar, it seems that the Beethoven that will soon be released on Decca is likely to be recordings that have been previously offered on Philips, which means that these are from late in his career.  :-\ I have the Beethoven sonatas from the Master set released previously and I find that they lack the youthful spark and drive found in Richter's earlier recordings. The recordings in the yellow "Master" set above are likely to be from 1986 (Rondos and Op. 101) and 1992 (Op. 31/3, Trio, and Quintet) so I expect it will be much of the same.  :-[
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 16, 2007, 06:19:07 PM
This looks like an interesting release (released 8/14/2007)

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/173926.jpg)

1.  Symphony no 38 in D major, K 504 "Prague" by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
 
Conductor:  Rafael Kubelik
Period: Classical
Written: 1786; Vienna, Austria
   
 
 
2.  Symphony no 2 in D major, Op. 36 by Ludwig van Beethoven
 
Conductor:  Rafael Kubelik
Period: Classical
Written: 1801-1802; Vienna, Austria
   
 
 
3.  Symphony no 3 in E flat major, Op. 55 "Eroica" by Ludwig van Beethoven
 
Conductor:  Rafael Kubelik
Period: Classical
Written: 1803; Vienna, Austria
   
 
 
4.  Leonore Overture no 3 in C major, Op. 72a by Ludwig van Beethoven
 
Conductor:  Rafael Kubelik
Period: Classical
Written: 1805-1806; Vienna, Austria    
 
 
5.  Symphony no 4 in E flat major, WAB 104 "Romantic" by Anton Bruckner
 
Conductor:  Rafael Kubelik
Period: Romantic
Written: Vienna, Austria
 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: edward on August 16, 2007, 06:25:11 PM
Hold on, now - One thing I just noticed, by looking at Trovar, it seems that the Beethoven that will soon be released on Decca is likely to be recordings that have been previously offered on Philips, which means that these are from late in his career.  :-\ I have the Beethoven sonatas from the Master set released previously and I find that they lack the youthful spark and drive found in Richter's earlier recordings. The recordings in the yellow "Master" set above are likely to be from 1986 (Rondos and Op. 101) and 1992 (Op. 31/3, Trio, and Quintet) so I expect it will be much of the same.  :-[
I just checked. They are.

However, there's also a set with two Haydn sonatas (#24 & #52) and Beethoven's opp 14/1 (1963), 22 (1963), 26 (1966) & 90 (1965) which is much more promising.

The other issue this month is great news for Richter/Schubert fans (hello me!) in the form of a 1966 D575, a 1979 D840 and a 1989 D894.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on August 16, 2007, 06:43:05 PM
I just checked. They are.

 :-[

Quote
However, there's also a set with two Haydn sonatas (#24 & #52) and Beethoven's opp 14/1 (1963), 22 (1963), 26 (1966) & 90 (1965) which is much more promising.

A set in the Master Series? That sounds MUCH better.

Quote
The other issue this month is great news for Richter/Schubert fans (hello me!) in the form of a 1966 D575, a 1979 D840 and a 1989 D894.

Richter's Schubert is superb! Which label is that on? I have heard the original recordings of those Schubert CDs on Philips and they are wonderful.  Where'd you get your info anyway?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: edward on August 16, 2007, 06:44:41 PM
A set in the Master Series? That sounds MUCH better.
Yep. It's volume 6. Or 4. Whichever the unappealing one isn't, anyway.
Richter's Schubert is superb! Which label is that on? I have heard the original recordings of those Schubert CDs on Philips and they are wonderful.  Where'd you get your info anyway?
That's volume 5 in the Master Series.

As for the info, a mixture of MDT and trovar.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on August 16, 2007, 06:47:15 PM
Yep. It's volume 6. Or 4. Whichever the unappealing one isn't, anyway.That's volume 5 in the Master Series.

As for the info, a mixture of MDT and trovar.

Yes, it looks like they were released in the states on Tuesday. I need to visit my local shop.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 16, 2007, 07:07:08 PM
Richter, The Master VOL 6 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/99/998078.jpg) (released 8/14/09) includes:

1.  Sonata for Keyboard no 39 in D major, H 16 no 24 by Franz Joseph Haydn
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)
 
2.  Sonata for Keyboard no 62 in E flat major, H 16 no 52 by Franz Joseph Haydn
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)
 
3.  Sonata for Piano no 3 in D minor,  J 206/Op. 49 by Carl Maria von Weber
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)

4.  Sonata for Piano no 9 in E major, Op. 14 no 1 by Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)

5.  Sonata for Piano no 11 in B flat major, Op. 22 by Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)

6.  Sonata for Piano no 12 in A flat major, Op. 26 "Funeral March" by Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)
 
7.  Sonata for Piano no 27 in E minor, Op. 90 by Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Sviatoslav Richter (Piano)

 :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 16, 2007, 07:11:41 PM
Uchida's Hammerklavier also releases this week:  (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/99/998148.jpg)

1.  Sonata for Piano no 28 in A major, Op. 101 by Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Mitsuko Uchida (Piano)
 
2.  Sonata for Piano no 29 in B flat major, Op. 106 "Hammerklavier" by Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Mitsuko Uchida (Piano)
 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 17, 2007, 04:13:36 AM
Helene Grimaud playing LvB PC 4 mvt 2

http://www.youtube.com/v/Ic1k7V-w-Xg
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2007, 01:54:35 PM
LvB String Quartet op. 131 pt. 1 (Orfeo String Quartet: Grimal / Bonanni / Berthaud / Salque)

http://www.youtube.com/v/FXo5TLnWzh8
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2007, 04:19:10 PM
LvB Grosse Fuge pt. 1 Alban Berg Quartet

http://www.youtube.com/v/n68WBx91nQE
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2007, 04:20:23 PM
LvB Grosse Fuge pt. 2 Alban Berg Quartet

http://www.youtube.com/v/bhM6Vrd8CP4
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 27, 2007, 02:20:29 AM
Beethoven: String Quartet, Op.135 (Part 1)
Hagen Quartet

http://www.youtube.com/v/v1Jsc8Sxnu4
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 27, 2007, 02:21:30 AM
Beethoven: String Quartet, Op.135 (Part 2)
Hagen Quartet

http://www.youtube.com/v/5n6IvgIleo8
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 27, 2007, 02:22:08 AM
Beethoven: String Quartet, Op.135 (Part 3)
Hagen Quartet

http://www.youtube.com/v/DYvIXbop3pA
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 27, 2007, 02:23:07 AM
Beethoven: String Quartet, Op.135 (Part 4)
Hagen Quartet

 :D

http://www.youtube.com/v/ka7sWEc6mZ0&mode=related&search=
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 28, 2007, 02:25:43 AM
HvK conducting LvB's 9th Symphony in d minor, op. 125 (mvts 1 and 2)

http://www.youtube.com/v/O2AEaQJuKDY
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 28, 2007, 03:56:53 AM
An Emperor is being released today ........

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/99/998056.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 29, 2007, 02:10:49 AM
 Click here for a thread on how Beethoven's doctor murdered him.  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3150.0.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: zamyrabyrd on August 29, 2007, 08:24:53 AM
Click here for a thread on how Beethoven's doctor murdered him.  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3150.0.html)

Wow, they had some fantastic remedies back then: lead, arsenic and mercury!
I also read that if Beethoven lived in our era, his deafness could have been cured, or at least lessened.

ZB
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on August 31, 2007, 07:33:57 AM
What do you get when you combine the two great concepts of Accordion + LvB's Rage Over a Lost Penny?

http://www.youtube.com/v/SS7TeLB0q5E
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on August 31, 2007, 07:37:18 AM
What do you get when you combine the two great concepts of Accordion + LvB's Rage Over a Lost Penny?

Rage Over a Lost Piano?  ;D



Seriously, thanks for that!  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bonehelm on September 02, 2007, 02:00:58 AM
100% recommend Bernstein's Ode to Freedom recorded in Berlin, 1989...after the fall of the wall. The intensity of the final chorus is exhilariting...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on September 03, 2007, 06:24:12 AM
Rage Over a Lost Piano?  ;D


If I lost an entire piano, I'd be pissed too. ;D  It's like I know I have to clean my apartment, but this is ridiculous... :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on September 03, 2007, 07:20:41 AM

If I lost an entire piano, I'd be pissed too. ;D  It's like I know I have to clean my apartment, but this is ridiculous... :D

 ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 05, 2007, 05:39:29 AM

If I lost an entire piano, I'd be pissed too. ;D  It's like I know I have to clean my apartment, but this is ridiculous... :D

I lost my cat once (who was asleep inside my piano) .........  :o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 05, 2007, 05:40:46 AM
The Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen with Paavo Järvi live in Minato Mirai, Yokohama, Japan on May 26th 2006. Beethoven Symphony No.3 (Eroica), 1st Movement - Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/v/9XL2ha18i5w

Eroica mvt 1 pt 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSrb6iEFNS8

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on September 05, 2007, 02:51:59 PM
I'm surprised, I thought that Jarvi liked slow, but this is fairly zippy for him, it's pretty good.  Not as fiery as I would like though, but I enjoyed it, thanks D. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 10, 2007, 02:11:57 AM
On a more serious note:  Family Guy disco dance to LvB 5

http://www.youtube.com/v/lp_oa4Fztfg
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 10, 2007, 02:16:29 AM
Emperor played by Glenn Gould

1/4
http://www.youtube.com/v/yftk_cnbwKQ

2/4
http://www.youtube.com/v/PrkHtqjXpB0&mode=related&search=
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 10, 2007, 10:14:39 AM
Two new LvB complete symphony sets will be released tomorrow (9/11)

Beethoven: Symphonies / Mackerras, Et Al
Release Date: 09/11/2007   Label: Hyperion   Catalog: 44301   Number of Discs: 5
Composer:  Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Janice Watson,  Catherine Wyn-Rogers,  Stuart Skelton,  Detlef Roth
Conductor:  Sir Charles Mackerras
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Scottish Chamber Orchestra,  Philharmonia Orchestra,  Edinburgh Festival Chorus

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/99/999693.jpg)


Beethoven: The Nine Symphonies / Mikhail Pletnev, Et Al
Release Date: 09/11/2007   Label: Deutsche Grammophon   Catalog: 000966502   Number of Discs: 5
Composer:  Ludwig van Beethoven
Performer:  Angela Denoke,  Marianna Tarasova,  Endrik Wottrich,  Matthias Goerne
Conductor:  Mikhail Pletnev
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Russian National Orchestra,  Moscow Chamber Chorus

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/210/2104143.jpg)

On sale for $54.99 at Archiv Music ! ! ! ! !
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on September 10, 2007, 10:25:25 AM
That's not the only two complete sets this year, is it!  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 10, 2007, 10:39:47 AM
That's not the only two complete sets this year, is it!  8)

LvB complete symphony cycles are such a rare treat that it seems to be that infrequent .........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Florestan on September 10, 2007, 09:04:43 PM
Just a stupid question from a Beethoven lover: do we need yet another set of LvB's symphonies when there are so many composers (dead or alive) out there who would deserve better?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: mahlertitan on September 10, 2007, 09:35:42 PM
interestingly, unlike other composers (e.g. Mahler, Bruckner) i am very satisfied with just ONE Beethoven cycle, i mean, what else is there to listen to?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 11, 2007, 02:14:39 AM
Just a stupid question from a Beethoven lover: do we need yet another set of LvB's symphonies when there are so many composers (dead or alive) out there who would deserve better?

Apparently, there is an endless list of conductors who feel that their novel, original interpretations of LvB's 9 symphonies will substantially contribute to the completely saturated LvB symphonic discography .........  I assume that these conductors feel the need to fill a void where none exists ......... Or to "prove" themselves ......... In any case, these symphony cycles sell well, and on that basis alone, they will continue to be churned out like baby rabbits .........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on September 11, 2007, 02:39:30 AM
Just a stupid question from a Beethoven lover: do we need yet another set of LvB's symphonies when there are so many composers (dead or alive) out there who would deserve better?

Beethoven pays the bills, let's put it that way.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 21, 2007, 03:46:36 PM
LvB 6 + HvK (35 min version):

http://www.youtube.com/v/HZGb-Kjy0S0
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: (: premont :) on September 23, 2007, 06:07:39 AM
Apparently, there is an endless list of conductors who feel that their novel, original interpretations of LvB's 9 symphonies will substantially contribute to the completely saturated LvB symphonic discography .........  I assume that these conductors feel the need to fill a void where none exists ......... Or to "prove" themselves ......... In any case, these symphony cycles sell well, and on that basis alone, they will continue to be churned out like baby rabbits .........

We might in all probability easily be able to overcome the problems of life without Pletnev´s LvB set. But I think Mackerras set will turn out to be one of the most rewarding sets for years, and I am certainly eager to acquire it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2007, 06:12:09 AM
We might in all probability easily be able to overcome the problems of life without Pletnev´s LvB set. But I think Mackerras set will turn out to be one of the most rewarding sets for years, and I am certainly eager to acquire it.


As you should be. It is one of the best cycles of recent years and a joy to listen to. Since I have little or no interest in "historic" recordings, I am always delighted when modern recording comes along that reaches high standards. This one does, IMO.  :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Tchaikovsky Serenade for Strings - Hamburg SO / Springer - Tchaikovsky Serenade in C for Strings Op 48 2nd mvmt - 02 (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/hamburg+so/track/tchaikovsky+serenade+in+c+for+strings+op+48+2nd+mvmt)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on September 23, 2007, 06:16:11 AM

As you should be. It is one of the best cycles of recent years and a joy to listen to. Since I have little or no interest in "historic" recordings, I am always delighted when modern recording comes along that reaches high standards. This one does, IMO.  :)



Perhaps I should give my set another listen, but I find Mackerras too "light."  :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: DavidW on September 23, 2007, 06:21:14 AM
Perhaps I should give my set another listen, but I find Mackerras too "light."  :-\

For a modern set, have you tried Barenboim?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on September 23, 2007, 06:56:55 AM
For a modern set, have you tried Barenboim?

Oh yeah, he's excellent.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 23, 2007, 07:02:24 AM

As you should be. It is one of the best cycles of recent years and a joy to listen to. Since I have little or no interest in "historic" recordings, I am always delighted when modern recording comes along that reaches high standards. This one does, IMO.  :)

Gurn,

Is this the new Mackerras set on Hyperion you're referring to? Is it radically different than his earlier EMI set?



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on September 23, 2007, 07:13:22 AM
The new Mackerras cycle is (perhaps unsurprisingly for some) highly praised by BBC Music magazine. The only reservation voiced by reviewer, Michael Tanner, was that there is a marked difference between the sound of the first eight symphonies and the ninth. To quote him: 'No doubt the contrast between the sometimes rasping austerity of the previous symphonies and the glow of the Ninth was intentional, but I could have done with more of the latter in, say, the acrid first movement of the Eroica.' He concludes by saying: 'I find Haitink extraordinarily impressive, while Zinman and Mackerras have a great deal in common ... I would suggest both Haitink and this new set, or Zinman's.' To me, that's a clear signal that I needn't bother with the new Mackerras recordings, as I have the Haitink, and recently acquired the Zinman cycle.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: (: premont :) on September 23, 2007, 07:27:28 AM
A comparation between Zinman and the old Mackerras EMI set (which at the moment is my all favoured version - HIP or not HIP) turns clearly out in favour of Mackerras, so I am going to acquire the second Mackerras set too. My question is now : Do I need the Haitink (I suppose you are talking about the live set vith LSO), what are the virues of this set comparared to e.g. Zinman?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on September 23, 2007, 07:36:11 AM
My question is now : Do I need the Haitink (I suppose you are talking about the live set vith LSO), what are the virues of this set comparared to e.g. Zinman?

Yes, I mean the recent(ish) LSO Live cycle. Its strengths lie in its solid conception (Zinman can get a little 'flaky' and 'tricksy' in places), its excellent sound (even on plain old CD, and despite the Barbican's notoriously dry acoustic), and its tempi choices that mirror those of the old Mackerras set on EMI. Its only weakness, IMO, is the Sixth, which sounds uninvolving and slightly hurried.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: (: premont :) on September 23, 2007, 07:46:39 AM
Yes, I mean the recent(ish) LSO Live cycle. Its strengths lie in its solid conception (Zinman can get a little 'flaky' and 'tricksy' in places), its excellent sound (even on plain old CD, and despite the Barbican's notoriously dry acoustic), and its tempi choices that mirror those of the old Mackerras set on EMI.
Thanks, I shall consider the purchase of it.

Its only weakness, IMO, is the Sixth, which sounds uninvolving and slightly hurried.
I think this is a common problem - but I grew up with Klemperers Philharmonia and Vienna Symphony Orchester Pastorales.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 23, 2007, 09:05:17 AM
We might in all probability easily be able to overcome the problems of life without Pletnev´s LvB set. But I think Mackerras set will turn out to be one of the most rewarding sets for years, and I am certainly eager to acquire it.

 Hurwitz had mostly very high praise for the 2007 Mackerras LvB set, giving it a 9/8.  (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11194)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 23, 2007, 09:12:43 AM
Gurn,

Is this the new Mackerras set on Hyperion you're referring to? Is it radically different than his earlier EMI set?

Per Hurwitz, although the Hyperion set is not "radically" better, it is "audibly superior to Mackerras' previous (and very good) effort on EMI, with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2007, 09:14:50 AM
Gurn,

Is this the new Mackerras set on Hyperion you're referring to? Is it radically different than his earlier EMI set?





No, I was talking about the Royal Liverpool set (Classics for Pleasure). I haven't heard the new one yet... :(

8)

----------------
Now playing: Kalliwoda Orchestral Works - Hamburger Symphoniker/Hamburger Symphoniker - Op 145 Overture #12 in D - 01 (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/hamburger+symphoniker/track/op+145+overture+%2312+in+d)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2007, 09:20:04 AM
Perhaps I should give my set another listen, but I find Mackerras too "light."  :-\

Nothing personal, but I have always hated that adjective. "Light" as opposed to what? Beethoven isn't Mahler, after all. Every piece is in place and played as it should be. Since Beethoven wrote for an orchestra of 50-60 players, and they weren't even using modern instruments with their fullness of sound, then "lightness" would have been the order of the day. That "heaviness" is exactly what turns me off to post-Romantic "historical" recordings. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Kalliwoda Orchestral Works - Hamburger Symphoniker/Hamburger Symphoniker - Op 145 Overture #12 in D - 01 (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/hamburger+symphoniker/track/op+145+overture+%2312+in+d)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Novi on September 23, 2007, 10:21:05 AM
The new Mackerras cycle is (perhaps unsurprisingly for some) highly praised by BBC Music magazine. The only reservation voiced by reviewer, Michael Tanner, was that there is a marked difference between the sound of the first eight symphonies and the ninth. To quote him: 'No doubt the contrast between the sometimes rasping austerity of the previous symphonies and the glow of the Ninth was intentional, but I could have done with more of the latter in, say, the acrid first movement of the Eroica.'

It was also a different orchestra. The first eight were with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra, the 9th with the Philharmonia. Perhaps the 'austerity' had something to do with ensemble size ???.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on September 23, 2007, 10:45:04 AM
It was also a different orchestra. The first eight were with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra, the 9th with the Philharmonia. Perhaps the 'austerity' had something to do with ensemble size ???.


I think that's suggested elsewhere in the review.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on September 23, 2007, 03:00:18 PM
Nothing personal, but I have always hated that adjective. "Light" as opposed to what?

Thick, I guess. I was mostly referring to the orchestral texture.  :-\

Quote
Beethoven isn't Mahler, after all. Every piece is in place and played as it should be. Since Beethoven wrote for an orchestra of 50-60 players, and they weren't even using modern instruments with their fullness of sound, then "lightness" would have been the order of the day.

I don't disagree with this point, though I must say that I am very happy to be living the 21st century and have so many interpretations at my fingertips.  :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2007, 03:19:47 PM
Thick, I guess. I was mostly referring to the orchestral texture.  :-\

I don't disagree with this point, though I must say that I am very happy to be living the 21st century and have so many interpretations at my fingertips.  :)

Thought you might be referring to texture. It's a hard reconciliation between thick and transparent... ;)  For me, though, modern interpretations that have the clarity of a large chamber orchestra, with the result that I can actually hear the individual parts are the way to go. If he wrote for "2 flutes", then 4 isn't necessarily better, or necessary at all if all other parts are kept to appropriate sizes.

I agree with the second part of your post, just pointing out the irony that in the 21st century the style you are championing has been largely left behind... :D

8)
----------------
Now playing: Kalliwoda Orchestral Works - Hamburger Symphoniker - Op 032 Symphony #3 in d 1st mvmt - Adagio molto - Allegro non troppo, con energia
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on September 23, 2007, 03:22:37 PM
Thought you might be referring to texture. It's a hard reconciliation between thick and transparent... ;)  For me, though, modern interpretations that have the clarity of a large chamber orchestra, with the result that I can actually hear the individual parts are the way to go. If he wrote for "2 flutes", then 4 isn't necessarily better, or necessary at all if all other parts are kept to appropriate sizes.



In theory, I agree. But after hearing the small sound of the recent Weil recording *ducks punches from Que*, I went running back to Szell. 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2007, 03:45:09 PM
In theory, I agree. But after hearing the small sound of the recent Weil recording *ducks punches from Que*, I went running back to Szell. 

And that's fine for you. I certainly don't care to convert you. But for me, Weil et al are exactly what I want. As you say, lots of choices. But Big Band Beethoven, despite my liking for exceptionally well-played performances, just can't nudge aside smaller ensembles, period instrument of not. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Kalliwoda Orchestral Works - Hamburger Symphoniker - Op 032 Symphony #3 in d 4th mvmt - Rondo: Allegro agitato
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 25, 2007, 12:08:30 PM
Two (2) recordings of LvB's VC released today.

Release no. 1


LvB / Proko Violin Concerti

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/175975.jpg)

Release Date: 09/25/2007
Label:  Cembal D'amour   Catalog #: 126   
Composer:  Ludwig van Beethoven,  Sergei Prokofiev
Performer:  Berl Senofsky
Conductor:  Pierre Monteux,  Leopold Stokowski
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Boston Symphony Orchestra,  American Symphony Orchestra
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 25, 2007, 12:09:24 PM
Release no. 2

Beethoven: Violin Concerto, "kreutzer" Sonata / Repin / Muti / Argerich / VPO

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/100/1002419.jpg)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 25, 2007, 12:10:15 PM
Released Today:

Beethoven: The Piano Sonatas Vol 5 / András Schiff

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/100/1002446.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 25, 2007, 12:12:29 PM
DVD releases today (previously only on CD  :o  :o):

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/174881.jpg)


PROMETHEUS - MUSICAL VARIATIONS ON A MYTH
A film by Christopher Swann
Ludwig van BEETHOVEN: The Creatures Of Prometheus: Excerpts from the Ballet Music
Franz LISZT: Prometheus - Symphonic Poem
Alexander SCRIABIN: Prométhée - Le Poème Du Feu
Luigi NONO: Hölderlin from Prometeo
Martha Argerich (piano)
Berliner Philharmonic Orchestra, Claudio Abbado

Swann's film based on a 1993 televised concert from Berlin's Philharmonic Hall appears this month on Arthaus. Until now available only as an audio CD on Sony Classical, this concert includes footage of the legendary pianist Martha Argerich performing Scriabin's Prometheus - The Poem of Fire: an indispensable addition to any collection.

The program features music by Beethoven, Liszt, Scriabin and Nono based on the Greek legend of Prometheus: "Ingenious … A hugely stimulating, thoughtfully planned production." (Gramophone on the CD release). The four works could not be more diverse in style and conception, representing highly different approaches: from Prometheus as bringer of plague and destruction to the punished Prometheus chained to a rock. In this film, Christopher Swann stresses a visual approach to this variety of ideas, using a number of modern film techniques to underscore and illustrate the musical presentation.
Performances by the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra under Claudio Abbado are first-rate, although it is the presence of Argerich that will make this DVD an obligatory purchase.  


"The disc's real tour de force - both sonically and musically - is Scriabin's Promethean effusion, his Poem of Fire. The very opening chord tells all, a tensely held pensive and frightening augury and a fitting prelude to everything that follows. … Abbado serves as master of ceremonies, Argerich as a crazed high priestess, her delirious, delicate and unpredictable solo weaving through the orchestra like a bubbling stream of consciousness. That is how it should sound - over-wrought, overpowering, utterly unhinged and yet calculated even to the smallest detail." -- Gramophone  

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 26, 2007, 10:59:10 AM
Amoyal & Weissenberg Beethoven Violin Sonata No 7 C Minor Op 30 2nd Mvt

http://www.youtube.com/v/xm-Kc_hdwBs
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on September 26, 2007, 11:24:36 AM
Daniel Barenboim plays an excerpt from Beethoven's Appassionata Sonata. Taken from the DVD programme "Barenboim on Beethoven"


http://www.youtube.com/v/gRiy1RJq64o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on September 27, 2007, 06:31:52 PM
I think I posted this in the wrong topic column, so instead of 'merging' and messing it all up I used the unauthorised method of copy-paste here:

Living dangerously! I hesitated to voice my opinion of just one of the Mikhail Pletnev recordings from his last set of all of Beethoven's symphonies, the 9th, but somebody has to be brave and go against Mr. Hurwitz and courageously step foreward with praise, yes, PRAISE, of this performance.

After reacting hohum to all the 9th I have heard, there is one actually expressing the Freude the sparks from the gods, bright glowing sparks, sparks strong enough to light fires. Pletnev brushed away all the cobwebs that had dulled and darkened this joyous composition by uncounted conductors, from the greatest to the dullest. This Pletnev interpretation - and his interpretation it is, his conviction of how the 9th should be played and heard - will not please the conservative old guard of Beethoven apostles, but it just might bring new, young and open-minded listeners into the ranks of classical music fans.

The soloists are impeccable! Matthias Goerne, the star of Henze's L'Upupa, Angela Denoke, the star of Korngold's Die Tote Stadt, and Endrik Wottrich, the star of numerous Wagner operas, and last but not least Marianna Tarasova, who I heard here for the first time, together with the Moscow State Chamber Choir, provide the most exhilerating finish to this 9th.

Quoting part of the remarks on the back of the box: "His interpretations seek to generate a new image of Beethoven as our contemporary, bringing his works into the here and now, continuing with Pletnev's words: "with every phrase, scream, and moment of joy lived through as intensely as in our real lives. The music must have an immediate emotional effect."

It does! Spasiba, Maestro Pletnev!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 03, 2007, 02:02:55 AM
Thanks for the excellent review ....... of a very controversial performance.  I am now very interested in listening to Pletnev's take on LvB 9 .......  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 03, 2007, 02:06:09 AM
Beethoven Piano Concerto No 4 part 1

Dimitris Sgouros is soloist with the Czech Philharmonic conducted by Sir Charles Mackerras. 1986 Prague Spring Festival.

http://www.youtube.com/v/oTCGRDvEk-k
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 03, 2007, 02:07:11 AM
LvB PC 4 pt 2

http://www.youtube.com/v/B2DqqyScPQc
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on October 03, 2007, 03:15:28 PM
Living dangerously! I hesitated to voice my opinion of just one of the Mikhail Pletnev recordings from his last set of all of Beethoven's symphonies, the 9th, but somebody has to be brave and go against Mr. Hurwitz and courageously step foreward with praise, yes, PRAISE, of this performance.

Not voicing any opinion here, but I just noted that Christoph Huss on ClassicsToday France came up with a possibly even more virulently negative view (http://www.classicstodayfrance.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2316) on Pletnev's Beethoven than Hurwitz.

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 03, 2007, 05:42:18 PM
And I am sure there are a lot more negative reviews floating all over the classical music scene. I expected it because Mikhail Pletnev always has his own ideas of how to present classical works. No crime listening to him and then making a personal decision.

Off the Beethoven topic: On a collection of Russian Overtures disc with Pletnev, he opens the overture to Glinka's Ruslan and Ludmilla at incredible speed, putting me in awe of his Russian National Orchestra's musicians talent. A few hours ago I popped a cartridge in my player, not checking what I had, and there is this Glinka, same speed. "Ah, must be my Pletnev disc." No, it wasn't. It was Mravinsky!

Pletnev isn't so revolutionary - unusual - after all!  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 03, 2007, 05:45:33 PM
Thanks for the excellent review ....... of a very controversial performance.  I am now very interested in listening to Pletnev's take on LvB 9 .......  8)

and I am eagerly looking forward to your reaction to it!  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 03, 2007, 05:49:34 PM
and I am eagerly looking forward to your reaction to it!  8)

Well, the last thing we want/need is a run-of-the-mill interpretation of LvB's d minor symphony.  Give us fire.  Give us passion. 

And I am sure there are a lot more negative reviews floating all over the classical music scene. I expected it because Mikhail Pletnev always has his own ideas of how to present classical works. No crime listening to him and then making a personal decision.

Do you intensely like any of Pletnev's other LvB symphonies?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 03, 2007, 05:50:19 PM
Off the Beethoven topic: On a collection of Russian Overtures disc with Pletnev, he opens the overture to Glinka's Ruslan and Ludmilla at incredible speed, putting me in awe of his Russian National Orchestra's musicians talent. A few hours ago I popped a cartridge in my player, not checking what I had, and there is this Glinka, same speed. "Ah, must be my Pletnev disc." No, it wasn't. It was Mravinsky!

Pletnev isn't so revolutionary - unusual - after all!  ;D

As to Ruslan und Ludmilla, the faster the better ........  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 03, 2007, 06:08:52 PM
I only completed my second run-through and am still catching one surprise after another. Takes time to sort them all out, but the Pastoral knocked me for a loop. That's the one Disney used with black and white horses flying through the sky? Correct me if I am wrong; but I stayed away from that one after the Disney experience. And there is this lovely picture of meadows, trees, mountains rain and a violent thunderstorm. It hit me: 'That's the Pastoral!' Pletnev taught me again what a wonderful symphony Beethoven composed for us, erased the Disney maltreatment and memory.

Pletnev also made me pay attention to the First, one that is so often overlooked.

The one I 'intensely' like is of course the Seventh. It always was my favourite of the nine, especially the one with Kleiber. I really looked forward to hearing the Pletnev version and was stunned when in the beginning I thought I had made a mistake and played the Kleiber disc! Only later on, especially the last movement is pure Pletnev. There too is fire and passion aplenty!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Larry Rinkel on October 03, 2007, 06:36:35 PM
Living dangerously! I hesitated to voice my opinion of just one of the Mikhail Pletnev recordings from his last set of all of Beethoven's symphonies, the 9th, but somebody has to be brave and go against Mr. Hurwitz.

In all honesty, people on various classical message boards scorn and ridicule Hurwitz all the time.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Larry Rinkel on October 03, 2007, 06:46:55 PM
Not voicing any opinion here, but I just noted that Christoph Huss on ClassicsToday France came up with a possibly even more virulently negative view (http://www.classicstodayfrance.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2316) on Pletnev's Beethoven than Hurwitz.

Q

That's for sure:

Quote
"L'autre chose" de Pletnev c'est un système dans lequel les notes de Beethoven servent de substrat à des clowneries de rythmes et de phrasés. "Bozo" Pletnev s'amuse avec le texte beethovénien comme un enfant avec un yoyo.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 03, 2007, 06:58:25 PM
At least he expresses a sense of humour - as much as I can translate his opinion! - I bet it doesn't bother Pletnev one bit to be called a Bozo, - or a child playing with it's yo-yo - that is if he even bothers to read all of the reviews. He has more important things to do: Prepare himself for a new concert or recital or whatever, study and memorise scores, rehearse with his musicians, among other things musicians do with their spare time.

I wonder if Alex Ross is working on a review of this series!  ;)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 04, 2007, 10:29:41 AM
Not voicing any opinion here, but I just noted that Christoph Huss on ClassicsToday France came up with a possibly even more virulently negative view (http://www.classicstodayfrance.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=2316) on Pletnev's Beethoven than Hurwitz.

Q

Here's an ALTAVISTA translation. 

The match is tight, the wild competition: who, of David Porcelijn and the Symphony orchestra of Tasmanie (discs ABC, into which the idea of genius of the chief is to introduce a pianoforte obligato into all the symphonies) or of Mikhaïl Pletnev with its National Orchestra of Russia, engraved the worst integral of the Symphonies of Beethoven? One will announce start which the "bad" adjective is in fact a synonym of "grotesque" or "ridiculous". One will also raise that one of the two rivals is published by the worthy house Deutsche Grammophon, which, in its case, adds "scandalous" to the list of the adjectives.

The orchestra even is not to him basically causes some, even if it seems hazardous to engrave a 3e and one 7th Symphony of Beethoven with a whole with the horns at this point absent. The desks of horns however historically contributed to the glory and the personality of the Russian full orchestras. With which it fault? No interest to rule on this point, since Mihkaïl Pletnev largely made the proof (cf its Tchaïkovski integral) of its incapacity "to balance" an orchestra polyphoniquement.

Among the objectively ridiculous elements of this box one will announce the "youyouyou" sopranos of the choir (ah! The two last minutes of 9th it is something...). That made since the Seventies and Eighties which one however included/understood that the tired voices of opera do not make the best forces choral societies in these cases of figure. Except that there is no there "error", fundamental. The error it is obviously the casting and the product.

The artistic project is summarized very simply and one will recognize at least in Pletnev triple constancy: the unit of vision throughout cycle; aesthetic coincidence between its taste of pianist and that as a chief; homogeneity in its massacre beethovénien. The summary is thus this one: like one about very heard in the symphonies of Beethoven, to point out itself, it is necessary to make "another thing".

"the other thing" of Pletnev it is a system in which the notes of Beethoven are used as substrate with clowneries of rates/rhythms and phrased. "Bozo" Pletnev has fun with the text beethovénien like a child with a yoyo. Quickly-slow-vite/accélérer-to slow down: the circus lasts six hours. The perfect synthesis of the horror concentrates at the beginning of the Pastoral one: an entry kind Jochum power 10 (with large idle in love at the end with the sentence) then a racing which seems caused by a puncture of tarantula.

The Heroic one is another abyssal moment, when, in the 1st movement at the time of the repeated agreements each agreement slows down, as if it were to be asséné. Pletnev wants "to do something", but it does anything and with a taste of [ what you will want ]. Horrors, there is as that in the least recesses (listen to the 3e movement of the 2e Symphonie). One starts to include/understand the utility of these mannerisms when it is noted that Pletnev is viscéralement unable to make live a movement or a sentence. In its (rare) moments of sobriety, its beaten is stiff and it does not know how to enrich a development (cf 1st movement of the 7th Symphony).

The publication of this box is a shame for Deutsche Grammophon. One is estomaqué and scandalized to note that the honor even this glorious house was to be sold, in his most invaluable bastion; Beethoven.

 -- Christophe Huss
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 05, 2007, 03:52:42 AM
Speaking of LvB 9, Lilas Pastia has formulated an opinion regarding the new DGG recording with the Cleveland orchestra under Franz Welser-Möst (Jan 2007).  His 3-pronged formulation focuses on the conductor's Presentation, Execution, and Conception.

Beethoven, symphony no. 9. This is a new DGG recording with the Cleveland orchestra under Franz Welser-Möst. Live from Severance Hall, Jan 2007. I'll go straight out and tout this as a major recording.

1) Presentation: although it's a live occasion, no coughs or instrumental flubs are heard. The recording is strange: although very transparent, it boasts low frequencies that give a solar plexus blow every time double basses have the upper hand (more often than you'd think). Anyhow, the large scale chorus (at least 125 if one is to believe the picture) is heard with clarity and fine focus.

2) Execution: just perfect IMO, but these are definitely not viennese winds or strings. Chorus sounds really great, one of the best I've heard. Due to the very fast pacing of IV, the soprano and mezzo don't amount for much (a pity - not many conductors achieve the balance between forward momentum and the women's voices' need for space to expand). Tenor Lopardo is more of a liability than an asset. I cringed when I saw his name on the cover, but I suppose his contract had to be honoured. He sounds like a throaty baritone crooning up on high :P. Bass René Pape does not disappoint - Au contraire! His is a startling, imposing contribution, achieving the balance WM probably strived for: curt and bangy, but still sounding like a human voice speaking.

3) Conception: Were it not for a full complement of repeats in the scherzo, this would be a 62 minutes reading, making it one of the faster paced versions on the market. Be that as it may, it never sounds quick. The first movement (under 15 minutes) is hectic-but-slow, measured-but-urgent, achieving a strange, almost uneasy balance between these two extremes. It does fit the movement's character. The scherzo is fleet, but still not very fast. Tiimpani strokes almost underplayed (the timpanist must have been raging >:D). The movement's position in the total framework s nicely judjed. The adagio clocks in at around 14 minutes, neither fast, nor slow. It is very lyrical and sweet. No excessive profuuundity here, just an elegiac, sweet interlude. The Finale would (as it should in any decent version) calls for a detailed analysis. Suffice to say that at under 22 minutes (don't believe the timings here, they include the end's applause)  it sounds youthful yet solid, exuberant and determined yet lyrical and joyful. I like the way urgency and ecstasy are brought together in the final Tochter aus Elysium choral ejaculation.

Altogether, I thought this is a recording that is intensely honest, in the sense of being more - much more - about the composer than the conductor. No mean feat...
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on October 05, 2007, 04:39:39 AM
Quote from: altavista
The match is tight, the wild competition

Sounds like Henningmusick!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: (: premont :) on October 05, 2007, 05:14:55 AM
... The summary is thus this one: like one about very heard in the symphonies of Beethoven, to point out itself, it is necessary to make "another thing".

"the other thing" of Pletnev it is a system in which the notes of Beethoven are used as substrate with clowneries of rates/rhythms and phrased. .

Sounds familiar. Read Gould instead of Pletnev and Bach instead of Beethoven.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 05, 2007, 05:18:46 AM
Sounds familiar. Read Gould instead of Pletnev and Bach instead of Beethoven.

LOL  :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Larry Rinkel on October 05, 2007, 07:08:40 AM
One is estomaqué indeed.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 05, 2007, 01:59:34 PM
"O Freunde, nicht diese Töne" is the entrance by the baritone and Goerne scolds us all very effectively in his grand voice. 'No, let's try this Beethoven masterpiece a bit differently, for a change' seems Pletnev telling us, and he does. Of course it's controversial for the pedants but fortunately there are enough adventurous music lover, not shying away from listening and accepting Pletnev's challenge.  8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 08, 2007, 01:28:53 AM
"O Freunde, nicht diese Töne" is the entrance by the baritone and Goerne scolds us all very effectively in his grand voice. 'No, let's try this Beethoven masterpiece a bit differently, for a change' seems Pletnev telling us, and he does. Of course it's controversial for the pedants but fortunately there are enough adventurous music lover, not shying away from listening and accepting Pletnev's challenge.  8)

Uffe, I'm largely in agreement: music discovery should be an adventure, not some classroom exercise.  Since no one knows with precision what exactly LvB intended, the best we can do is weigh LvB's "intent" as one factor among many factors in formulating the optimal performance.  IOW, the purview of valid interpretations is wide-open, with new boundaries waiting to be explored .......and with new messages and meanings waiting to be discovered and expressed.

As much as with any composer, LvB wanted his scores to breathe with life, with vital energy surging with each passing bar.  Great composers deliberately infused their scores with hidden complexities and latent beauties, leaving it for only the most gifted and adventurous of conductors to unleash each hidden gem.

(again, I haven't heard the Pletnev versions)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 08, 2007, 01:39:45 AM
 Esa-Pekka Salonen studies Bach, Strauss and Beethoven for clues to the meaning of existence. By Mark Swed, Los Angeles Times (Oct. 7 2007)  (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/arts/la-et-phil8oct08,0,7482953.story?coll=la-home-middleright)

(http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2007-10/33066469.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 08, 2007, 01:53:41 AM
4 Recordings of Cleveland Orchestra doing LvB 9

Szell/Cleveland (1961)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/21V84Q3G91L._AA115_.jpg)

Szell's recording (Sony Classical) is monumental. From the first movement's mysterious opening notes to the finale's jubilant conclusion, the account abounds in visceral drama, probing expressivity and orchestral splendor. Szell's steadfast rhythmic intensity drives the Beethoven engine while keeping the musical destinations in sight. Command of architecture and instrumental balance are Szell hallmarks that make his Ninth a tour de force. He takes some liberties with Beethoven's orchestration, adding winds and horns in spots to reinforce textures. But Szell attains remarkable clarity, and he animates the score through pinpoint articulation and subtle fluctuation of dynamics and nuances.

Maazel/Cleveland (1978)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/3139V5BGQGL._AA115_.jpg)

Wherever he makes music, Maazel has a tendency to surprise with idiosyncratic effects, especially in Classical and Romantic repertoire. His Cleveland recording of the Ninth on CBS Records isn't free of quirks, but it's also a bold exploration.  Like Szell, Maazel demands crisp attack and precise ensemble. Some of Maazel's pacing is broad, and he instigates an odd pullback of tempo before one of the big choral outbursts in the finale. The ear adjusts. The slow movement unfolds sensitively, and Maazel allows the orchestra the freedom to play vividly within his controlled parameters.

Dohnanyi/Cleveland (1985)

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/21MPY8CNX7L._AA115_.jpg)

Dohnanyi leads an urgent, lucid Ninth (Telarc) that is tonally warmer than his predecessors', if less sharp in attack. He joins Szell and Maazel in providing the slow movement with the requisite contrasts of mood and emphasizing the diverse string and wind sonorities that are so crucial to the music's affecting beauty.
The orchestra is in outstanding form under Dohnanyi, who stresses proportion and shapes Beethoven with an elastic hand. Lightness, simplicity and vigor place this performance proudly alongside his colleagues' Ninths.

 Welser-MÖst CD of Beethoven's Ninth falls short of other Cleveland Orchestra versions   (http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/entertainment-0/1191660329271830.xml&coll=2)

Sunday, October 07, 2007
After discussing Szell/Cleveland (1961); Maazel/Cleveland (1978); and Christoph von Dohnanyi /Cleveland (1985), Don Rosenberg expresses an opinion on Franz Welser-MÖst/Cleveland (Oct. 2007).:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/100/1002387.jpg)

It is with the Ninth Symphony that Cleveland Orchestra music director Franz Welser-MÖst is making his debut on commercial recording with the ensemble, whose last compact disc Pierre Boulez led in 2000. Welser-MÖst's Ninth was captured during concerts in January at Severance Hall and released Tuesday on the Deutsche Grammophon label, which has an armful of distinguished Ninths in its catalog.

Considering the array of recordings on the market, the release of yet another Ninth would seem to demand that a conductor have distinctive ideas about the music. But it is difficult to discern how Welser-MÖst feels about the Ninth. His performance rarely rises above the workmanlike, despite the elegance, vibrancy and sheen the orchestra often brings to Beethoven.

Welser-MÖst conducts one of the fastest Ninths in recent recorded history, due mostly to his pell-mell pacing of the "Ode to Joy." ***  Welser-MÖst's general rashness minus adequate tension, especially in a finale that becomes a madcap dash to the finish line, heightens his Ninth's generic qualities. Many details are inaudible. Where is the opening violin motive, for example, that catapults the first movement's events?
Dynamics often are suppressed and articulations elongated as Welser-MÖst favors smoothness over definition, like sentences without punctuation. There is hardly any evidence of the cantabile (singing) marking in the slow movement.

Although ensemble matters sometimes sound wan under Welser-MÖst, the orchestra largely is the model of responsiveness and refinement it has been for decades. The same can be said for the Cleveland Orchestra Chorus, though Szell's recording with Robert Shaw's choral contingent remains the benchmark.

Of the four conductors, Szell has the most cultivated quartet of vocal soloists (Adele Addison, Jane Hobson, Richard Lewis, Donald Bell), who never sound taxed by Beethoven's strenuous writing. Maazel's group -- Lucia Popp, Elena Obraztsova, Jon Vickers, Martti Talvela -- is unashamedly operatic (and loud), while Dohnanyi fields the mellifluous combination of Carol Vaness, Janice Taylor, Siegfried Jerusalem and Robert Lloyd.

Welser-MÖst is so hyper in the finale that he doesn't give Measha Brueggergosman, Kelley O'Connor, Frank Lopardo and the magnificent, vehement Rene Pape the means to treat Beethoven with much nobility or finesse. What's the point of this music if it flies by with scant concern for phrasing, accent and breathing space?

The bigger question may be moot, but it's worth pondering. Why did Welser-MÖst and the orchestral powers-that-be -- and eventually Deutsche Grammophon -- choose the Ninth for the conductor's first compact disc in Cleveland?

The answer might be that Beethoven delivers, aesthetically and financially, no matter who is in charge. Still, as the previous Cleveland Ninth recordings proclaim, the score's electricity and poetry take us to the highest world when a conductor communicates a compelling vision to musicians and listeners alike.

Don Rosenberg is classical music critic of The Plain Dealer.





 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Harry on October 08, 2007, 02:01:09 AM
Fine review Dmitri! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on October 08, 2007, 04:19:17 AM
I have the first three of these and not only is the Dohnányi my favored of the three, it is my favorite Ninth, period.  Even more so than HvK's '63 or either of my Furtwängler's on the shelf.  Having sadi this, it is very nice to have them all for variety sake.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 08, 2007, 04:35:15 AM
Bogey, then do you intend to be fair and give the Pletnev 9th a try?  ???
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on October 08, 2007, 04:47:59 AM
Bogey, then do you intend to be fair and give the Pletnev 9th a try?  ???

Oh sure....always willing to try something new.  It is just difficult for me to purchase another 9th when I already have so many I enjoy on the shelf, while at the same time not have a single copy of so many other pieces.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 08, 2007, 04:50:51 AM
Oh sure....always willing to try something new. 

Live life on the wild side ....... and GO FOR IT! ....... :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 08, 2007, 04:53:43 AM
Released yesterday on YOUTUBE .......

Paul Badura-Skoda Beethoven Sonata no. 32

1/3

http://www.youtube.com/v/bBCiGp4w1ms&mode=related&search=
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on October 08, 2007, 05:11:33 AM
Live life on the wild side ....... and GO FOR IT! ....... :D

Looks to be available only in a $55+ box set....I will need to look into the secondary market.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 08, 2007, 05:36:37 AM
Looks to be available only in a $55+ box set....I will need to look into the secondary market.

........ I wonder if Hurwitz will unload his copy at a discount ........  :D

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/93/78/6dc91363ada0ec44b714d010.M.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 08, 2007, 07:11:18 AM
The bigger question may be moot, but it's worth pondering. Why did Welser-MÖst and the orchestral powers-that-be -- and eventually Deutsche Grammophon -- choose the Ninth for the conductor's first compact disc in Cleveland?

The answer might be that Beethoven delivers, aesthetically and financially, no matter who is in charge.


I couldn't agree more with the above. In fact, I wrote as much myself:


This strikes me as DG simply trying to make a big splash with their newest signee, Welser-Möst. Hogtie him to the biggest name in the classical biz in the biggest symphony in the classical biz. Guaranteed to rake in the $$. ::)

I'm saddened DG couldn't have seen fit to record/release something new from Martinu, or Scriabin, or Enescu...





Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 08, 2007, 08:39:20 AM

"The bigger question may be moot, but it's worth pondering. Why did Welser-MÖst and the orchestral powers-that-be -- and eventually Deutsche Grammophon -- choose the Ninth for the conductor's first compact disc in Cleveland? The answer might be that Beethoven delivers, aesthetically and financially, no matter who is in charge."  

I couldn't agree more with the above. In fact, I wrote as much myself:

"I'm saddened DG couldn't have seen fit to record/release something new from Martinu, or Scriabin, or Enescu"

Well, there are several points.

1. Yes, it's certainly true that we need more recordings of Martinu, Enescu et al.

2. Is there really a saturation point for the Ninth?  Can we have TOO MANY LvB Ninth's churned out?  If there is a saturation point, have we reached it yet?  (I say "no").

3. Is there really a tradeoff?  Are the performance/recording resources so scarce that we can't have BOTH Beethoven and Martinu?

4. While it's true that LvB 9 "delivers financially," doesn't it also "deliver" spiritually, musically, aesthetically, emotionally, intellectually, and artistically?  Moreso than virtually any other work?  To that extent, shouldn't the choice of LvB 9 be exalted rather than criticized?

5. There is always the possibility that a new performance of the Ninth will be groundbreaking, earthshattering, and all that ......... A 21st-Century version of Furtwängler (new and improved) could always emerge .........

6. [Reserved]

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 08, 2007, 08:41:16 AM
Quote
2. Is there really a saturation point for the Ninth?  Can we have TOO MANY LvB Ninth's churned out?  If there is a saturation point, have we reached it yet?  (I say "no").

I'm still waiting for the "perfect" one.  0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 08, 2007, 08:45:44 AM
BTW, according to the Cleveland Orchestra website, the Miami Herald described Welser-Möst's performance as "soaring, eloquent":

 Of their interpretation of the Ninth, the Miami Herald wrote: “One would expect Welser-Möst and the Cleveland Orchestra to put on an impressive display in the music of Beethoven. But the soaring, eloquent performance heard Friday night was remarkable even by the Clevelanders' elevated reputation.”  (http://www.clevelandorchestra.com/html/PressRoom/pressreleases.asp?ID=165)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 08, 2007, 07:58:31 PM
2. Is there really a saturation point for the Ninth?  Can we have TOO MANY LvB Ninth's churned out?  If there is a saturation point, have we reached it yet?  (I say "no").

I would argue that. I think we've definitely reached a saturation point. Considering there are 217 recordings of the ninth listed on Arkiv I can't see it as any other way. And that's just what's currently in print. OOP editions could very well double that figure! 

Quote
3. Is there really a tradeoff?  Are the performance/recording resources so scarce that we can't have BOTH Beethoven and Martinu?

Are you talking about DG (Universal) specifically? If so, you'd think there would be enough in the budget to record both. It's a big corporation. The question then becomes why aren't they doing it?

Which is where the independent labels come in. If not for them who'd even know Enescu exists?

Quote
4. While it's true that LvB 9 "delivers financially," doesn't it also "deliver" spiritually, musically, aesthetically, emotionally, intellectually, and artistically?  Moreso than virtually any other work?  To that extent, shouldn't the choice of LvB 9 be exalted rather than criticized?

If it's your intent to say Beethoven's ninth is so good it should have a free pass to be recorded ad infinitum I disagree. At least to the extent lesser known repertoire is muscled out in the process.

Sure, record the ninth if one must...but the problem I have is that DG's just released a brand new ninth: Pletnev's (in his cycle). That's two releases of the same work by the same company. Concurrently! I hate to think of the budgetary dollars that were dried up in deciding this.

Quote
5. There is always the possibility that a new performance of the Ninth will be groundbreaking, earthshattering, and all that ......... A 21st-Century version of Furtwängler (new and improved) could always emerge .........

One would hope that's the case with any new release! ;D But, of course, too many chiefs can spoil the lot. If everyone's a Furtwängler or a Beethoven...

So how about letting some of the workers have their say on occasion? Might discover there's a voice worth hearing...

Quote
6. [Reserved]

Hmm...whatcha got up your sleeve? ;D



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 09, 2007, 04:10:52 AM
Considering there are 217 recordings of the ninth listed on Arkiv

 :o  Way to go Beethoven!

217 versions of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony in d minor

1 version of Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony in d minor


Yeah, there is indeed a whopping disparity.  But as long as DG makes ten times the profit from selling LvB 9, I don't see that changing!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 09, 2007, 04:12:01 AM
217 versions of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony in d minor

Which one's the perfect one? :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 09, 2007, 04:21:21 AM
Which one's the perfect one? :)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YB0Y540PL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 09, 2007, 06:18:27 AM
I have the first three of these and not only is the Dohnányi my favored of the three, it is my favorite Ninth, period..

Mine too (I own 15 other versions of the Ninth).

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 09, 2007, 06:19:17 AM
4 Recordings of Cleveland Orchestra doing LvB 9...

Thanks for posting this, D.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 09, 2007, 07:41:04 AM
Grimaud / Tempest in d minor

http://www.youtube.com/v/yTbXfbvfLi4

Beethoven Piano Sonata No.17 "Tempest" 3rd.Mov

Added Oct. 8
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 10, 2007, 05:34:41 AM
. Considering there are 217 recordings of the ninth listed on Arkiv I can't see it as any other way.

Just jumped to 218 ........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 10, 2007, 05:35:30 AM
Just jumped to 218 ........

I don't want anyone making recommendations until they've heard all 218.  ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 10, 2007, 05:36:29 AM
. Considering there are 217 recordings of the ninth listed on Arkiv I can't see it as any other way.

On a separate but related note, Donwyn, do you think there are too many LvB Seventh Symphonies (of which there are a mere 208 recordings)?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 10, 2007, 05:42:08 AM
2 Emperors were unleashed yesterday:

Hélène Grimaud / Wladimir Jurowski / Dresden Staatskapelle (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/thumb/100/1002210.jpg)

Ashkenazy / Haitink / London Phil (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/177008.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on October 10, 2007, 05:47:41 PM
2 Emperors were unleashed yesterday:

Hélène Grimaud / Wladimir Jurowski / Dresden Staatskapelle (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/thumb/100/1002210.jpg)

Ashkenazy / Haitink / London Phil (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/177008.jpg)

I'll take both.  Any reviews available yet?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 10, 2007, 06:45:10 PM
Just jumped to 218 ........

Okay, time to release the hounds....

 ;D



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 10, 2007, 07:56:43 PM
On a separate but related note, Donwyn, do you think there are too many LvB Seventh Symphonies (of which there are a mere 208 recordings)?

Yes, I do.

Though I guess companies need the windfall to keep themselves afloat. That would seem to be the implication.

Vänskä's a good example. He's riding high right now, with his new orchestra and all (Minnesota), so why shouldn't BIS cash in on his popularity by issuing a new Beethoven cycle? Makes perfect fiscal sense.

But does it make good artistic sense? Depends. If BIS follows the Beethoven with yet another Tchaikovsky symphony cycle then I say no.

On the other hand if BIS builds on Vänskä's popularity and unearths some underrepresented goodies for their next recording project then I say a resounding yes! I mean, what better way to generate interest in worthwhile yet underrepresented repertoire than by linking it to a hot hand?

It's all about discovery. Folks know Vänskä (heck, even my mother-in-law [here in the States] knows who he is) so taking an Enescu/Martinu/Scriabin leap of faith might prove less daunting if accompanied by a familiar face.

Who knows, it could even prove to be such a windfall that other companies begin to copycat! I can see it now: 208 Martinu fourth symphony recordings listed on Arkiv! Yippeeeeeee...... (but that's a discussion for another day! ;D)




Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 11, 2007, 03:09:17 AM
Yes, I do. ***But does it make good artistic sense? Depends. If BIS follows the Beethoven with yet another Tchaikovsky symphony cycle then I say no.

On the other hand if BIS builds on Vänskä's popularity and unearths some underrepresented goodies for their next recording project then I say a resounding yes! I mean, what better way to generate interest in worthwhile yet underrepresented repertoire than by linking it to a hot hand?

It's all about discovery. *** Who knows, it could even prove to be such a windfall that other companies begin to copycat! I can see it now: 208 Martinu fourth symphony recordings listed on Arkiv! Yippeeeeeee...... (but that's a discussion for another day! ;D)
 

Well, once again, you're bundling together several points ........

1. LvB 7 is not a saturated market. With new recording techniques and recording media, it's mindboggling to think of how many highly impressive performances have yet to be tapped -- perhaps thousands -- perhaps tens of thousands.  Not to mention fresh approaches and interpretations given new conductors and new performers.

What if, unbeknownst to you, Paul Kletzki had made a DVD of LvB 7 with spectacular sonics and visuals (and the Czech Philharmonic, of course)? ......... and DG released it on October 9, 2007 ($19.95)........ Would you buy it?

2. If you believe that Vänskä is a credible artist, and that he, in good conscience, believes that he can add a great deal of insight into the interpretations of LvB 7, shouldn't he be encouraged to do that?  You are assuming that the only reason anyone churns out Beethoven is to make money.  I wish Vänskä would post on this board and tell us how Beethoven's 7th affects and nurtures his soul and artistry.  Maybe the primary reasons conductors perform Beethoven is because of its artistic value ........

3. The new Pletnev release shows just how wildly different interpretations can be of LvB's symphonies.  LvB's symphonies aren't static, dead warhorses.  Rather, they are bristling with potential ....... with their latent, hidden mysteries waiting to be unearthed.  Personally, I'm not sure if we've even probed the tip of the iceberg with respect to LvB's symphonies.  And the market certainly IS NOT SATURATED.

4. Perhaps the best solution to our dilemma is to bundle Beethoven with Martinu ...... for example by including Martinu's 4th Symphony with Beethoven's 4th Symphony (or wha'ever).  Win-win-win situation.

5. I agree that "it's all about discovery."  And given the depth and profundity of many of LvB's compositions, there are many more discoveries to be made with various new interpretations/performances of his masterpieces.

6. Again, there is no mutual exclusivity.  We can have lots of new Beethoven and lots of new Martinu without any tradeoffs.  The globe is filled with countless orchestras, performers, and conductors ....... we can have both ........ and we can have both LvB and Martinu on the same CD/DVD ....... paving the way to limitless discoveries for listeners ..........

7. [Reserved]


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 11, 2007, 05:13:53 AM
A very thoughtful and thought provoking post, Dmitri!

Human nature with all it's fault makes it so bothersome to switch gear from something familiar and comforting. It's so much easier to sit back - either in the comfort of one's home, or the less comfortable concert hall seat - and relax with a well-known version of one's favourtie symphony, than to sit up and discover a bit of new tempo or volume, evaluate it and search for reasons of the change.

Great discoveries can be made giving something new a fair chance!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 11, 2007, 06:06:37 AM
This reviewer found Pletnev’s cycle to be "significant ..... [e]specially for cheek, excitement and rhetoric ......"

He gave it a 4 out of 5 .......



 From The Times
September 21, 2007
MIKHAIL PLETNEV: BEETHOVEN SYMPHONIES
Geoff Brown
  (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/cd_reviews/article2497737.ece)

Trumpetings from the Deutsche Grammophon people suggest that Beethoven will never be the same again. With this set of the nine symphonies, as with his continuing piano concerto cycle, conductor and pianist Mikhail Pletnev, they say, has knocked Beethoven off his museum perch and made him our contemporary. The Beethoven legacy has been marked forever.

All exaggeration. Beethoven has never felt dusty. The publicity, too, does a disservice to earlier recorded cycles from the period-instrument specialists Nikolaus Harnoncourt and Roger Norrington or, more recently, David Zinman – all conductors who leap to mind as Pletnev punches through fortissimo chords and pushes the tension sky-high. From an earlier age, Wilhelm Furtwängler also pops into the head for his loose speeds and improvisatory air. The Beethoven legacy has not been altered, merely continued.

Even so, Pletnev’s cycle, recorded over 11 hectic days last summer with his excellent Russian National Orchestra, is still significant. Especially for cheek, excitement and rhetoric. Fast speeds are pushed beyond the dial, often with consequences for string articulation. Slow stretches can be resoundingly slow: note his Eroica funeral march, 16 minutes long. At best Pletnev’s volatile behaviour gives the symphonies a sense of exploration and growth. The Eroica first movement in particular is a triumph of flexible speed – there’s life and surprise in every bar.

And at worst? Well, none of the nine performances is untenable. But subtleties sometimes get squashed in the rush (the Second’s finale). And in several of the most iconic symphonies Pletnev, for all his passion and commitment, oddly appears to have little to say. Some speed quirks apart, most of the notes in the Fifth roll themselves out as usual. The Ninth, too, appears a little ordinary: Pletnev’s punch-drunk staccatos aren’t the best conduit for universal joy.

Usually, the more risks Pletnev takes the sharper the music-making’s character. Woodwind and brass players never seem put out by his streaking speeds; likewise the orchestra’s timpanist. And there’s a dangerous delight about Pletnev’s approach. Try the first movement of the Pastoral: in both directions speeds are pushed to the brink of madness, but you can’t deny the countryside’s thrill.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 12, 2007, 08:43:22 AM
Comparing/Contrasting Pletnev with Mackerras

Tim Ashley
Friday October 12, 2007
The Guardian

Beethoven: The Nine Symphonies Edinburgh Festival Chorus/ SCO/ Philharmonia/ Mackerras
(http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Music/Pix/pictures/2007/10/11/beethoven1.jpg)

Also reviewed: Beethoven: The Nine Symphonies, Moscow State Chamber Choir/ Russian NO/ Pletnev
 
These two new Beethoven cycles are in many respects antithetical, though to hear them in tandem is to be reminded of the tremendous interpretative diversity his music permits. Both were recorded last year. The Hyperion set derives from BBC broadcasts of Charles Mackerras's Edinburgh festival cycle and features the two UK orchestras with which he is primarily associated - the Scottish Chamber Orchestra, who play the first eight, and the Philharmonia, who take over for the Ninth. Mikhail Pletnev's DG cycle with his Russian National Orchestra was taped in Moscow following an intensive series of concerts. Both are hugely personal. Broadly speaking, Mackerras presents each symphony as self-contained, and the stylistic range of the cycle as a whole is striking. Pletnev, more contentiously, is anxious to find a unity of revolutionary purpose that links all nine.

Pletnev's avowed aim is that "every phrase, scream and moment of joy [should be] lived through as intensely as in our real lives". In the process, however, he steers us closer than Mackerras to the conventionally held view of Beethoven as predominantly snarling and titanic. His speeds can be wayward and exaggerated and he sometimes cramps Beethoven's emotional range. What crucially slips is the humour. Pletnev is dour in the first two symphonies, where Mackerras emphasises the often witty experiments with classical form that preceded the epoch-making structural overhaul of the Eroica. The Fourth, in which Beethoven plays endless games by confounding listeners' expectations, is the hardest of the series to get right: Mackerras is bang on with every stylistic jolt here, while Pletnev seems over-deliberate.

Pletnev, however, sometimes takes us to extremes in ways that Mackerras does not. His Fifth is both savage and elated, while Mackerras's is low-key by comparison. Pletnev's Seventh is also more transparent and more overtly Dionysian than its opposite number. Neither Pastoral is ideal - Mackerras is overly classical and severe, and Pletnev's speeds are again too erratic. Both Eighths are superb, if contradictory: Mackerras is unusually nostalgic, Pletnev very grand and doggedly turbulent. You can't fault the Ninths, either. Whether you prefer Pletnev's hieratic, ritual approach to Mackerras's deep humanity is a matter of taste. Both recordings have some extraneous noise. There's coughing and platform clatter on the Mackerras set. Pletnev, meanwhile, can be heard singing along, though never intrusively.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 12, 2007, 08:54:26 AM
I didn't hear Pletnev! Have to run them again and pay more attention to his voice than his conducting. No, just kidding. This is a very good review, thanks, Dmitri. I have not heard the Mackerras so I take the reviewer's word for it because he sounds fair and non-partisan; that's what I like to read in any review.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 12, 2007, 08:29:20 PM
Well, once again, you're bundling together several points ........

I had no idea I had to curtail my 'point bundling'...

You asked a question...I gave an answer. I actually went well beyond the one word answer your question in all honestly warranted. I mean, in the spirit of conversation and all...

Quote
1. LvB 7 is not a saturated market. With new recording techniques and recording media, it's mindboggling to think of how many highly impressive performances have yet to be tapped -- perhaps thousands -- perhaps tens of thousands.  Not to mention fresh approaches and interpretations given new conductors and new performers.

Tens of thousands, eh? Expecting something 'fresh' from the 53,407th recording of B's seventh symphony requires a huge leap of faith! But who better to expect that from than the board's number one Beethoven lover: D minor!!

Of course, me being the rabid Beethoven hater (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3764.msg91508.html#msg91508) I have lower expectations...

Quote
What if, unbeknownst to you, Paul Kletzki had made a DVD of LvB 7 with spectacular sonics and visuals (and the Czech Philharmonic, of course)? ......... and DG released it on October 9, 2007 ($19.95)........ Would you buy it?

No. I'm not into concert DVD's. And Supraphon had the quality sound thing down in the mid-60s. Well ahead of their time...

Quote
2. If you believe that Vänskä is a credible artist, and that he, in good conscience, believes that he can add a great deal of insight into the interpretations of LvB 7, shouldn't he be encouraged to do that?  You are assuming that the only reason anyone churns out Beethoven is to make money.  I wish Vänskä would post on this board and tell us how Beethoven's 7th affects and nurtures his soul and artistry.  Maybe the primary reasons conductors perform Beethoven is because of its artistic value ........

Conversations that hinge on presuppositions about the other party really aren't conversations...

Quote
3. The new Pletnev release shows just how wildly different interpretations can be of LvB's symphonies.  LvB's symphonies aren't static, dead warhorses.  Rather, they are bristling with potential ....... with their latent, hidden mysteries waiting to be unearthed.  Personally, I'm not sure if we've even probed the tip of the iceberg with respect to LvB's symphonies.  And the market certainly IS NOT SATURATED.

Of course the market's not saturated. We haven't even gotten to the 12,683rd recording of the seventh, yet...

Quote
4. Perhaps the best solution to our dilemma is to bundle Beethoven with Martinu ...... for example by including Martinu's 4th Symphony with Beethoven's 4th Symphony (or wha'ever).  Win-win-win situation.

What's the dilemma? In all honesty I'm not half as worried about the situation as you appear to be.

Quote
5. I agree that "it's all about discovery."  And given the depth and profundity of many of LvB's compositions, there are many more discoveries to be made with various new interpretations/performances of his masterpieces.

I guess we'll never know how "deep and profound" Martinu's fourth symphony is since every available inch reserved for recordings has been earmarked for the literally hundreds of thousands (millions??) of Beethoven projects...not much room left for anything else.

Quote
6. Again, there is no mutual exclusivity.  We can have lots of new Beethoven and lots of new Martinu without any tradeoffs.  The globe is filled with countless orchestras, performers, and conductors ....... we can have both ........ and we can have both LvB and Martinu on the same CD/DVD ....... paving the way to limitless discoveries for listeners..........

Well, we've been down this road. I'd like to see the majors show more initiative and record both!

Quote
7. [Reserved]

Did I mention that conversations that hinge on presuppositions about the other party really aren't conversations?




Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 13, 2007, 03:16:10 AM
Vänskä and Minnesota Orchestra to Complete Beethoven's Symphony Cycle in January

Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra will record Beethoven's Seventh and Second Symphonies in January 2008 for the final installment of their Beethoven Symphonies CD cycle on the BIS label. -- www.minnesotaorchestra.org

Vänskä and Minnesota Orchestra Concludes Beethoven Cycle

Osmo Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra conclude their acclaimed performance cycle of Beethoven's symphonies with concerts November 1 to 3 featuring LvB's Seventh Symphony and his noble Emperor Piano Concerto, which showcases 27-year-old Russian piano virtuoso Yevgeny Sudbin as soloist.

Sudbin, lauded by London's The Daily Telegraph as "potentially one of the greatest pianists of the 21st century," makes his Orchestra Hall debut on the three programs, which also include a fantasia by John Corigliano based on a theme from Beethoven's Seventh Symphony.  Russian-born Yevgeny Sudbin has already been hailed by critics as the 21st century's first great new piano talent. Since the 2005 release of his highly praised debut recording of Scarlatti sonatas on the Swedish BIS label, he has performed extensively throughout the world and recorded three additional solo albums for BIS. His current season includes debuts with three American orchestras and recitals throughout the U.S. and Europe.  Born in St. Petersburg in 1980, Sudbin has studied at the St. Petersburg Conservatory, Berlin's Hochschule Hanns Eisle and the Royal Academy of Music in London, where he currently resides.

Confident nobility and rhythmic energy permeate Ludwig van Beethoven's Emperor Piano Concerto, its composer's fifth and final contribution to the form. The notoriously difficult concerto was completed in Vienna in 1809 as Napoleon's army occupied the city. After an epic first movement full of wide leaps and frequent cadenzas, a reflective adagio and an energetic rondo cap this touchstone of the piano repertoire.

Beethoven's lively Seventh Symphony, famously termed "the apotheosis of dance" by Richard Wagner, builds a series of striking musical moments from short, simple figures. The second movement has been an audience favorite since its 1813 premiere, when it was immediately encored.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on October 13, 2007, 05:41:10 AM
Well, there is always room for more Beethoven, provided that it is HIP.
I have heard and already own enough immensly satisfying non-HIP Beethoven to last a life time.

I embraced Bruno Weil's recording of the 5th and 6th (Analekta, see my post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,145.msg85780.html#msg85780) the HIP Beethoven thread) and will welcome the announced complete cycle with Jos Van Immerseel (Zig Zag) with open arms.

Q
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 13, 2007, 07:45:48 AM
Caramoor Announces Lecture Series On Beethoven's Shadow 
Written by Westchester.com     
Friday, 12 October 2007 

Katonah, NY – The first of three music lectures on aspects of Beethoven’s Shadow – the theme of this autumn’s Great Artists in the Music Room series at Caramoor Center for Music and the Arts – will take place on Sunday, October 14.

Beethoven’s Shadow explores the work of Beethoven (1770-1827) as well as the great music written after Beethoven and influenced by his ground-breaking work.  The series will also include a concert of holiday music in December.

The first lecture, “Beethoven’s Shadow: Exploring the Connection Between Beethoven and Schumann” will take place on Sunday, October 14 at 4:00 pm and feature lecturer Michael Barrett and William Sharp, baritone.  The lecture will include discussion and performance of Beethoven’s An die Ferne Geliebte, regarded as the first great German song cycle, paving the way for Schubert, Schumann, Hugo Wolf and others.  In addition to An Die Ferne Geliebte, William Sharp with Michael Barrett at the piano will perform Schumann’s Liederkreis, Op. 39.

On Sunday, November 11 at 4:00 pm, San Francisco Conservatory of Music professor Paul Hersh will discuss “Exploring the Influence of Beethoven’s Piano Sonatas.”   He will explore the literary legacy and musical structure of Beethoven’s final piano sonata, Op. 111.  The lecture will conclude with a performance of the sonata by Mr. Hersh.

The third lecture in the series, “Exploring Beethoven’s Symphonic Shadows,” will be given by Paul Epstein and will take place on Sunday, November 18 at 4:00 pm.  This lecture will examine three of Beethoven’s symphonies, the revolutionary panorama of the Third (Eroica), the absolute musical unity of the Fifth, and the Ninth’s embodiment of nothing less than the whole of humanity and the world, and trace their overwhelming influence on such diverse composers as Schubert, Brahms, Wagner, Debussy and Ives.

The lectures complement the autumn’s Great Artists in the Music Room Series, which began on October 6 with the Brentano String Quartet and continues on Saturday, October 20 at 8:00 pm with pianist Vladimir Feltsman, violist Paul Neubauer, and baritone William Sharp with a program of Beethoven’s Sonata No. 14 in C-sharp minor, Op. 27, No. 2 (Moonlight); Schumann’s Liederkreis, Op. 39 (poems by Eichendorff); and Shostakovich’s Sonata for Viola and Piano.  The final Beethoven’s Shadow performance, Saturday, November 3 at 8 pm, will feature Lily Francis, violin; Edward Arron, cello; and Anton Kuerti, piano with a program of Beethoven’s Trio in C minor, Op. 1, No. 3; Shostakovich’s Trio No. 2 in E minor, Op. 67; and Trio No. 2 in C Major, Op. 87 by Brahms.

Tickets
Tickets for the Beethoven’s Shadow lectures are $15.  For further information about all events at Caramoor and to order tickets call the Caramoor Box Office at 914.232.1252 or visit www.caramoor.org. 

About Caramoor
Caramoor is the legacy of Walter and Lucie Rosen, who built the great house and filled it with their treasures.  Walter Rosen was the master planner for the Caramoor estate, bringing to reality his dream of creating a place to entertain friends from around the world.  Their musical evenings were the seeds of the annual summertime Caramoor International Music Festival, as well as the Fall and Spring musical programs held in their former home, now the House Museum.  Realizing the pleasure their friends took in the beauty of Caramoor – the house with its art collection, the gardens, and the musical programs – the Rosens established a Foundation to open Caramoor to the public in perpetuity.

Caramoor Center for Music and the Arts is located at 149 Girdle Ridge Road, Katonah, New York.

 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 13, 2007, 06:14:15 PM
I have one more Beethoven 5th in my collection which has not been mentioned here - yet!

It's a Budapest Music Center Records disc with Peter Eötvös conducting his own composition zeroPoints played by the Göteborgs Symfoniker and then Beethoven's 5th by the Ensemble Modern. This should be an inspiration for concert program planners: Mix the old with the new, give them Eötvös and then sooth their tempers with their beloved Ludwig!

Eötvös gives the 5th a very brisk pace, not exactly speeding, but he is not loitering either and of course the Ensemble Modern is outstanding, as always. I like it!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 14, 2007, 02:27:37 AM
This should be an inspiration for concert program planners: Mix the old with the new, give them Eötvös and then sooth their tempers with their beloved Ludwig!

That's what I'm talkin' about .......
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 14, 2007, 02:35:12 AM
Greatest Fountains of the World accompanied by LvB's d minor symphony (1'12") ........

http://www.youtube.com/v/-qAliFFbXP0
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: uffeviking on October 14, 2007, 05:15:49 AM
That's what I'm talkin' about .......

But nobody is listening to you - and me - and very often to the artistic directors of a symphony orchestra. From the personal experience of a conductor friend, it's the blue-haired money bags sitting on the board of directors, who are dictating what he can put on the program! I believe concert goers should be more vocal in asking for a mix of the old and the new.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 16, 2007, 05:10:11 AM
Have you ever pondered what sort of wonders could be lurking within the website BEETHOVEN.COM?  Well, ponder no further:

   http://www.beethoven.com/   (http://www.beethoven.com/)

Hopefully, this is merely "phase 1" of a multiphased development effort for BEETHOVEN.COM .......  ::)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 17, 2007, 04:19:26 AM
Music Review: Quartet hindered by its ultra-refined approach
Wednesday, October 17, 2007
By Andrew Druckenbrod, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Late Beethoven and Shostakovich string quartets approach pure thought in music, but chamber musicians still can overthink them.

The Alexander String Quartet, which opened the Pittsburgh Chamber Music Society's season Monday night, tried too hard to attain sublimity instead of letting the music achieve it.

The Alexander -- Zakarias Grafilo and Frederick Lifsitz, violins, Paul Yarbrough, viola, and Sandy Wilson, cello -- interestingly play a set of similar carbon fiber bows from the German bow-maker Arcus. But the group's demure interpretations at Carnegie Music Hall had nothing to do with lightweight bows.

The ensemble was excellent, but the Alexander went for an ultra-refined reading of a pair of already sublime works and, to my ears, lost their continuity of line.

In residence at Allegheny College but based in San Francisco, the Alexander is no stranger to the world's top stages. Formed in 1981, the group still has two founding members (Wilson and Yarbrough) and has recorded the complete quartet cycles of the two composers it featured at the concert, Beethoven and Shostakovich.

But if this music was familiar to them, it was a difficult program for an audience: Shostakovich's Prelude and Fugue No. 15 (arranged by Grafilo), his Quartet No. 9 in E-flat Major and Beethoven's celebrated Quartet in C-sharp Minor, Op. 131. Beethoven's quartet is a late work in seven movements. It is ushered in from afar by a deliberate fugue and ends with an angular theme. Heard for the first time on the PCMS series, Shostakovich's Ninth has five movements performed without breaks and is full of arresting musical shifts. Both are masterpieces marked by introspection.

But the Alexander didn't help by leaving the music sitting on the stage. The quartet was constantly pulling back in volume and performing with a thin timbre, and the resulting lack of presence was enervating to the music. Adagios in the Shostakovich quartet (1964) lacked smoldering intensity; those of the Beethoven (1826) sagged. Rhythmic highlights, such as the former's rollicking finale and the latter's brisk Presto, were flat.

Simply put, the readings were largely dry and cerebral, when emotion churns throughout these works despite their sometimes stark surfaces.

We will likely get a more engaging performance when the Alexander returns to PCMS in the spring for a more visceral program, with works by John Adams, Terry Riley, Wayne Peterson and middle-period Beethoven. This is a veteran group that clearly knows its stuff and has its own style, but Monday it would have been better to play out more.

First published on October 17, 2007 at 12:00 am
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: JoshLilly on October 17, 2007, 06:22:24 AM
"tried too hard to attain sublimity instead of letting the music achieve it."


What the hell does that mean?! Am I the only one that finds these types of comments from music reviewers completely nonsensical?? It's almost as stupid as wine critics who attribute attitudes like "presumption" to fermented grape juice.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: locrian on October 17, 2007, 06:24:09 AM
"tried too hard to attain sublimity instead of letting the music achieve it."


What the hell does that mean?! Am I the only one that finds these types of comments from music reviewers completely nonsensical?? It's almost as stupid as wine critics who attribute attitudes like "presumption" to fermented grape juice.

Sounds like they were milking it when it didn't need to be.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: JoshLilly on October 17, 2007, 06:27:37 AM
"Milking it", what does that mean? Playing too slow, too fast, changing tempi in mid-movement? Too loud, too soft, using unmarked dynamics? The reviewer later comments that he felt the players had too much of a thin, quiet sound. That kind of comment makes sense.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2007, 06:29:06 AM
Sounds like they were milking it when it didn't need to be.

And yet, that appears to be precisely the opposite of what he says in the rest of the article.  :-\

(I don't read reviews or criticism, I listen to the music instead)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Florestan on October 17, 2007, 10:08:19 PM
I don't read reviews or criticism, I listen to the music instead

8)

A most wise behaviour.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 18, 2007, 03:18:12 AM
Dallas Symphony Orchestra's Beethoven Festival


For the first time the Dallas Symphony Orchestra performs all nine of Beethoven's symphonies in sequential order during this five weekend-long festival. Four conductors will lead, including director Jaap van Zweden.

Schedule:
Oct. 19-21: Symphonies 1, 2 and Stravinsky's Concerto for piano and Winds; Gilbert Varga, conductor, Kirill Gerstein, piano
Oct. 25-27: Symphonies 3, 4; Markus Stenz, conductor
Nov. 1-4: Symphonies 5, 6; Jaap van Zweden, conductor.
Nov. 8-11: Symphonies 6, 8 and Fidelio Overture; Van Zweden, conductor
Nov. 29-Dec. 2: Symphony No. 9 and Schoenberg's Survivor from Warsaw; Jirí Behlolávek, conductor
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on October 18, 2007, 03:22:14 AM
And yet, that appears to be precisely the opposite of what he says in the rest of the article.  :-\

(I don't read reviews or criticism, I listen to the music instead)

8)

What reviews?  ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 18, 2007, 03:23:15 AM
Dan Bar Moo Fin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJeD8ckihN8
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 18, 2007, 07:25:00 AM
2 new Beethoven recordings

CLASSICAL CD REVIEWS: Accomplished violinists try their hands at Beethoven pairing

          1. Beethoven -- AViolin Concerto & Kreutzer Sonata. Isabelle Faust (Harmonia Mundi)
          2. Beethoven -- A-Violin Concerto & Kreutzer Sonata. Vadim Repin (DG)

12:00 AM CDT on Saturday, September 29, 2007

By LAWSON TAITTE / The Dallas Morning News

What are the odds that two releases with this unprecedented (but logical) coupling, both so interesting, should come along the same month?

Isabelle Faust, fast becoming one of the world's most interesting violinists, takes a stylish approach to these two masterpieces, informed by period insights but basically modern. Vadim Repin, now attaining the patina of middle-aged master in this label debut, exhibits an unreconstructed and unashamed old-fashioned heroism.

Ms. Faust, accompanied by the Prague Philharmonic under Jiri Behlohlavek (once a frequent Dallas Symphony guest), gives the Violin Concerto one of its most interesting performances ever. Certainly it's my current favorite. She marches through the first movement at a relatively rapid pace, but doesn't stint on delicacy in all those filigrees. Beethoven wrote no cadenzas for the violin in this work, but he did create some for the piano adaptation he made. Ms. Faust reworks those and turns them into a personal triumph. You may never want to hear any other cadenza after you hear her tear through this one, with its timpani accompaniment.

She's also spiritual and heartfelt in the quasi-religious Adagio – but that's where Mr. Repin comes into his own in a deeply moving performance. The Vienna Philharmonic under Riccardo Muti plays the first movement for grandeur and majesty. Mr. Repin contributes a very detailed commentary on his fiddle, but it's all rather slow by modern standards. In the finale, Mr. Repin is playful, but Ms. Faust builds up more momentum.

The Kreutzer Sonata, arguably the first work Beethoven wrote to reveal his full stature, finds Mr. Repin paired with the world's most legendary pianist, Martha Argerich. If he lets her take the lead in this fiery performance, that's understandable. The team also gives the variations more weight than usual, making them look forward to much later Beethoven.

Ms. Faust, with her wonderful duet partner Alexander Melnikov, is more subdued and thoughtful, but this is also a first-class Kreutzer.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NSzza8lfL._SS400_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/416YrC0gieL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Bogey on October 18, 2007, 03:43:14 PM


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NSzza8lfL._SS400_.jpg)

Love the artwork here.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 19, 2007, 03:46:07 AM
Love the artwork here.

Isn't that awesome.  It just "speaks" BEETHOVEN!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 19, 2007, 03:48:36 AM
Bogey has undertaken a thread on  LvB's 4th Symphony  (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3932.msg94845.html#msg94845) ....... and it illbehooves anyone to eschew active participation in this newly minted LvB 4 thread.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 19, 2007, 03:01:23 PM
Boston's Handel and Haydn Society Opens 2007-08 Season with Beethoven
By Matthew Westphal
19 Oct 2007



The Handel and Haydn Society of Boston, the oldest continuously active performing arts organization in the United States, opens its 2007-08 season tonight by playing an all-Beethoven program at no less a venue than the city's Symphony Hall.

Grant Llewellyn, H&H's principal conductor, leads the Society's period-instrument orchestra in the Symphony No. 7 and the Piano Concerto No. 3, with Kristian Bezuidenhout playing an early 19th-century Graf fortepiano. They'll repeat the program on Sunday, Oct. 21, at 3 p.m.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2007, 03:29:19 PM
Boston's Handel and Haydn Society Opens 2007-08 Season with Beethoven
By Matthew Westphal
19 Oct 2007



The Handel and Haydn Society of Boston, the oldest continuously active performing arts organization in the United States, opens its 2007-08 season tonight by playing an all-Beethoven program at no less a venue than the city's Symphony Hall.

Grant Llewellyn, H&H's principal conductor, leads the Society's period-instrument orchestra in the Symphony No. 7 and the Piano Concerto No. 3, with Kristian Bezuidenhout playing an early 19th-century Graf fortepiano. They'll repeat the program on Sunday, Oct. 21, at 3 p.m.



Drat! I bet Karl is there  ( ;D ), wish I was... :'(

8)

----------------
Now playing: Bia 406 Op 55 Symphony #3 in Eb (HIP) - Les Concert de Nations / Jordi Savall - Bia 406 Op 55 Symphony #3 in Eb 1st mvmt - Allegro con brio
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 20, 2007, 04:54:19 AM
Drat! I bet Karl is there  ( ;D ), wish I was... :'(

Gurn, that concert would have so delighted you .........  0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 20, 2007, 04:58:15 AM
Here's an interesting concert:

Liszt: Totentanz
LvB: Choral Fantasy
Proko: Alexander Nevsky

S.F. Symphony, Masur deliver a spirited 'Nevsky'
By Richard Scheinin
Mercury News
Article Launched: 10/20/2007 01:39:36 AM PDT




The temptation is to begin a review of Thursday's concert by the San Francisco Symphony and its famous guest conductor, Kurt Masur, with a long description of "Alexander Nevsky," the cantata by Prokofiev about a 13th-century Russian warrior and hero.

After all, it blasted and swirled through Davies Symphony Hall with sounds of clashing swords and joyful shouts from the orchestra and its 141-voice chorus. And it's a historical curiosity, too, this Slavic extravaganza, adapted from Prokofiev's score to the 1938 film of the same name by Sergei Eisenstein.

But Thursday's program, which repeats tonight and Sunday afternoon, was so deliciously overstuffed - first Liszt, then Beethoven, then Prokofiev - that "Nevsky," which closed the concert, will have to wait.

So let's talk first about pianist Louis Lortie, a fabulous player who tore like a champion race-car driver through a pair of exciting and difficult works, "Totentanz" in d minor ("The Dance of Death")by Liszt and the "Choral Fantasy" by Beethoven. And let's talk more about Masur, the lanky aristocrat with the clipped white beard, who, during the Liszt, had a way of poking his index fingers in the air, funny little tapping gestures that somehow elicited waves of response from the orchestra. "Totentanz," from 1865, opened the program. It might as well be a piano concerto, but is technically a set of variations for piano and orchestra on "Dies Irae" ("Day of Wrath"), the 13th-century Latin hymn describing the Last Judgment. Cutting to the chase, "Totentanz" is a piece about death by the death-obsessed Liszt, and devilishly hard to play.

Lortie had fun with it, starting with deep spiked chords and left-handed jack-hammerings, summoning timpani and full strings, before heading into power mode, knuckling up and down the white keys - sleigh-riding! - with a delighted little smile, then moving into a death gallop, the strings riffing behind him.

His cadenza was full of gossamer filigree, giving way to a cat-and-mouse game with the orchestra, the theme passing from one section to the next, Masur giving it a nudge with the jut of an elbow or a hunched shoulder, and Lortie, near the end, becoming a two-handed blur.

As the applause mounted, he left the stage, presumably to drink a large glass of water, then returned for the "Choral Fantasy," from 1808, which is every bit as demanding. It, too, is a set of variations on a theme, one you will recognize because it is so similar to "Ode to Joy" from Beethoven's Symphony No. 9, completed in 1824.

The "Choral Fantasy" begins with faux improvisatory piano flights, thick with notes and neatly handled by Lortie, who then did some light sparring with strings, flutes and oboes, the piece ebbing and flowing through pastoral fantasias and mounting toward the chorus's entrance and the Big Melody. Masur, who looks like Father Christmas, pointed to the balcony behind the stage where six soloists in the San Francisco Symphony Chorus sang about peace, joy and the blessing of the gods (words penned, it's thought, by Christoph Kuffner).

This wasn't a faultless performance; notes were smudged here and there, entrances weren't airtight, some of the upstairs soloists seemed nervous. But the spirit of the music-making was bountiful.

Likewise for "Alexander Nevsky," which owes its birth to Stalin, who wanted, in the 1930s, to warn the Russian people about the dangers of German aggression. He hired Eisenstein, who based his first dramatic sound film on the story of the Grand Duke Alexander of Novgorod, winner of a famous battle at the River Neva, and therefore dubbed "Alexander of the Neva," or "Alexander Nevsky."

Prokofiev's soundtrack is the source of his cantata, from 1939, which tours cinematically through the subsequent story: the Motherland's invasion by German warriors and their defeat by Nevsky's meager Russian forces on frozen Lake Chudskoye in 1242.

If you go, you will hear lamenting oboes and ominously thrumming strings, great Latin chants and an infectious folk-derived melody for chorus ("Arise, People of Russia"), as well as the sounds of swords whacking, ice cracking and then a young woman's lament over "The Field of the Dead" (mezzo-soprano Nancy Maultsby sang the aria with a witness's grief) and those last victory shouts of Mother Russia.

As good as it was, I'm guessing that this weekend's performances will be tighter and even beefier, with the chorus, which sounded slightly undernourished Thursday, stepping up its impact to cap an unusually complex and rewarding program.


San Francisco Symphony and Chorus

Kurt Masur, guest conductor; Louis Lortie, piano;

Nancy Maultsby, mezzo-soprano

mercurynews

Where Davies Symphony Hall, 201 Van Ness Ave.,

San Francisco

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 20, 2007, 05:07:34 AM
I bet Karl is there 

Boston is a happening place:

Quartet gains a toehold in Boston
By Jeremy Eichler, Globe Staff  |  October 20, 2007

CAMBRIDGE - The classical music scene in this country is bursting with ambitious young string quartets, and at the moment, two up-and-coming ensembles are gaining toeholds in the Boston area. The Chiara String Quartet will be the Blodgett artists-in-residence at Harvard beginning next fall, and the Pacifica Quartet has already begun a three-year residency at the Longy School of Music. The latter group is based in Illinois, but the players will teach at Longy for a concentrated period each semester, and the ensemble will give regular performances, as it did Thursday night at Pickman Concert Hall.

The Pacifica's members are still young, but the group has been around for more than a decade. They are confident interpreters of the standard repertoire and also fearless exponents of contemporary music (Exhibit A: they will traverse all five quartets by Elliott Carter on a single program this season in New York). Their concert on Thursday effectively balanced two cornerstones of the literature - a Beethoven Quartet (Op. 59, No. 3) and a Beethoven-obsessed Mendelssohn Quartet (Op. 13) - with a 20th-century masterpiece, Ligeti's Quartet No. 1, "Métamorphoses Nocturnes."
The Mendelssohn came first, and as was evident from the opening slow chorale, the group possesses a well-blended, dark-amber sound, polished at a medium gloss. Masumi Rostad (viola) and Brandon Vamos (cello) provide a smooth and elegant grounding in the bass, and Simin Ganatra (first violin) and Sibbi Bernhardsson (second violin) play brilliantly together, though they are a less seamless match in temperament. The outer movements of the Mendelssohn brim with stormy lyricism, and the Pacifica navigated both of them with a winning blend of ensemble precision and expressive heat. The third movement was very clearly etched, though it might have benefited from a somewhat lighter touch and a more diaphanous ensemble sound.

Ligeti's First Quartet, written in 1953-54, essentially picks up where the Bartok quartets leave off. The piece's 12 short movements are strung together and built on a concise four-note motive that gets sliced, diced, and transformed in every way imaginable. In what was the strongest performance of the night, the Pacifica players gave themselves over completely to the work's haunting extraterrestrial soundscapes. Without shying away from the music's violent extremes and gnashing dissonances, they stayed attuned to its sudden flashes of irony and humor, and for that matter, its moments of serene beauty.

The Pacifica dispatched the Beethoven with impressive clarity and commitment, even if the reading had room to continue deepening. There is perhaps more pathos to be found in the doleful waves of the second movement, and the turbocharged fugal finale, which features about six of the most exhilarating minutes of chamber music ever written, had a slightly restrained quality, short on the surging momentum and volcanic power that the best readings can convey.

Still, at intermission, several students in the audience could be heard making awestruck comments about the Ligeti. The Pacifica is clearly an excellent young ensemble whose members should inspire those they teach. Longy is wise to have recruited them.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Varg on October 20, 2007, 08:05:32 AM
His "Moonlight" Sonata (1st movement) is such a powerful work. I like it slow and heavy, and Alain Lefevre's interpretation is my favorite so far.

The second movement of his 7th Symphony is another favorite, conducted by Monsieur Fürtwangler.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 21, 2007, 10:36:35 AM
Nice Avatar, Varg ..........

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 21, 2007, 10:37:36 AM
As to LvB 4 ........ says one GMG'er ......


Best Beethoven 4th in captivity. The joyousness of the music making is overwhelming.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41AHMDB7P8L._SS500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 22, 2007, 05:23:25 AM
Waldstein on fortepiano 1/3

http://www.youtube.com/v/TjZJvQTV_M8

According to the YoutubeTM blurb:

"Beethoven's sonata Waltstein Aurora played on a fortepiano, the early version of our modern piano, in fact the transition between the harpsichord and our pianoforte. The fortepiano is tuned at 420Hz as was usually done in Beethoven's period, and not 440Hz as is mostly done actually ....."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 22, 2007, 05:24:43 AM
Waldstein on fortepiano  3/3

http://www.youtube.com/v/dhrqJj62hPg
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Varg on October 22, 2007, 05:50:59 AM
I have to add another great Beethoven conductor/performer: Barenboim. I received his symphonies/sonatas cycles today. Only listened to the 5th and 7th symphonies (and some sonatas) so far. He seems to bettering what i like so much about Fürtwangler; in fact, i'm so impress that Fürtwangler may never find his way to my CD player again (i'm only half kidding here)!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: (: premont :) on October 22, 2007, 07:43:39 AM
Quote from: D Minor

... a fortepiano, the early version of our modern piano, in fact the transition between the harpsichord and our pianoforte. ....

I am speechless ?????????
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2007, 08:43:30 AM
Waldstein on fortepiano 1/3

Beethoven's sonata Waltstein Aurora played on a fortepiano, the early version of our modern piano, in fact the transition between the harpsichord and our pianoforte. The fortepiano is tuned at 420Hz as was usually done in Beethoven's period, and not 440Hz as is mostly done actually .....

If in fact the fortepiano is transitional, it is only temporally. Harpsichords pluck, fortepianos (and pianos) hammer. They do indeed fill the time period between the cembalo and the pianoforte, but that is the only real transitional position they occupy. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 22, 2007, 11:13:09 AM
From The Times
October 22, 2007

Gabrieli Consort/McCreesh
Geoff Brown at the Barbican


For 25 years now Paul McCreesh’s Gabrieli Consort and Players have been ferreting around performing early, Renaissance and Baroque music in imaginative and uplifting ways. But modern music can’t be denied forever. Last Thursday they reached 1823.

It’s the year that Beethoven finished his Missa Solemnis. From other composers, the title could intimate a marble slab, monumental, almost funereal. With Beethoven that was never possible. Yet the vivacity that McCreesh’s team brought to the notes still slapped us in the face. Numbers on stage were modest, but the decibels were not.

And with the full-throated choir, the plangent woodwinds, the four natural horns, and gut-string violins stripped of all Vaseline, clarity and colour reigned supreme: such a change from the acoustic fog of Westminster Cathedral’s Monteverdi Vespers performed a few days before.

Most of McCreesh’s quartet of soloists matched the chorus in ebullience. The exception was the tenor Werner Güra. In lieder recitals he’s reliably expressive; here, until the final Agnus Dei, he was the sandwich filling that you couldn’t taste.

Maybe he felt intimidated by his right-hand neighbour, the mezzo Christianne Stotijn, who sang with 110 per cent commitment, the tone effulgent, the mouth open wide – what a joy to be her dentist. In ringing declaration Susan Gritton and Neal Davies, soprano and bass, came a good second and third; though during the Sanctus every voice played second fiddle to the fiddle of the musicians’ leader Catherine Martin, circling above in her solo with exceptional, melting beauty.

Was this performance too crisp and energetic to do complete justice to the work’s grandeur? The question hung in the air, nibbling a little at the pleasure. In the Credo an ensemble lurch in McCreesh’s sprinting finale showed the risks of speeding; at times we needed sunglasses to shield us from the music’s glare.

Yet, in the end, not much stature was lost. Beethoven wasn’t writing for church mice, and the Gabrielis sent us back into the world cleaned, revived, sanctified for the battles ahead. They should perform more modern music.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 22, 2007, 11:18:49 AM
Time Out Chicago / Issue 138 : October 18, 2007 - October 24, 2007
Tower of London
Brit pianist Paul Lewis always thinks big.

By Marc Geelhoed

(http://www.timeout.com/chicago/resizeImage/htdocs/export_images/138/138.x600.class.paullewis.open.jpg?width=190)

 The playing is remarkably direct, with no affectations drawing attention to the performer, no sense of “instructing” the audience about the music’s greatness, but at the same time rigorously devoted to it. English pianist Paul Lewis’s ongoing recording cycle—currently at the halfway point—of Beethoven’s 32 piano sonatas captures the elegance of the works as well as their visceral rage. Lewis, 35, also proves himself to be as eloquent in discussing the sonatas as he is in playing them. He’s touring Beethoven’s Fourth Piano Concerto with the London Symphony as part of Sir Colin Davis’s 80th birthday celebration, which makes its local stop Monday 22.  (http://www.timeout.com/chicago/article/classical/23436/tower-of-london)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: tiroirdelmare on October 23, 2007, 04:59:41 AM
If in fact the fortepiano is transitional, it is only temporally. Harpsichords pluck, fortepianos (and pianos) hammer. They do indeed fill the time period between the cembalo and the pianoforte, but that is the only real transitional position they occupy. :)

8)
I put that video of my wife playing on the fortepiano online. Yeah, that's exactly how I meant it : the clavier instrument that was used in the period between the use of the harpsichord and the modern piano. Still, I'm just writing down this stuff as an amateur, as well for the piano-like-instrument-history as for the English language, any correction is very welcome!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 23, 2007, 05:08:13 AM
I put that video of my wife playing on the fortepiano online. Yeah, that's exactly how I meant it : the clavier instrument that was used in the period between the use of the harpsichord and the modern piano. Still, I'm just writing down this stuff as an amateur, as well for the piano-like-instrument-history as for the English language, any correction is very welcome!

Cool! That was quite interesting. I would like to know anything about the background of that particular instrument (maker, year, that sort of thing).

I am personally a great fan of fortepianos (thousands aren't ::) ), and always welcome an opportunity to see/hear one being played. :)

8)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 23, 2007, 05:53:22 AM
LvB VC released 10/23/07 (w/ Egmont & Brahms VS in D)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kXzDZokfL._SS500_.jpg)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 23, 2007, 06:04:54 AM
Another LvB VC released unto mankind, this time performed by Grimiaux and bundled with Viotti 22

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2006/Jan06/Beethoven_Grumiaux_4768477.jpg)

MUSICWEB REVIEW:

*** In this later 1966 LP recording he was partnered by the New Philharmonia under Alceo Galliera and isn’t to be confused with the early 1970s recording with the Concertgebouw and Colin Davis – Grumiaux of course made multiple recordings of the Concerto.

Galliera manages to infuse some real metrical tension into the opening orchestral introduction, one that Grumiaux enhances. His trill is of electric velocity, the vibrato perfectly controlled, the gestures classical and pellucid, the phrasing of rapt naturalness. There are no emotive finger position changes that call attention to themselves; everything is directed inward, including the powerful orchestral pianissimo de Waart prepares for Grumiaux throughout the first movement. Refinement and lyricism are the watchwords of the slow movement and the finale, whilst never an adrenalin producer, ratchets enough of its own rhythmic drama to stimulate, educate and enliven. This is playing of elevation and finesse.

The companion concerto is a rather unlikely one from the perspective of a professional player – the college standby of Viotti’s A minor [No.22]. This is a work that most players have essayed at some stage though few elite players have committed it to disc, though Menuhin did, and so did Accardo, De Vito, Morini, David Oistrakh and Stern – some have been recorded in concert or privately such as the superb Shumsky piano-accompanied version on Biddulph and a live Kreisler torso. This is a charmer of a performance, long on Gallant charm and garnished with some silkily elegant work in the genial slow movement, and some dashing passagework throughout. Is that a passing passage of poor intonation at 5.55 in the first movement? Never mind.

The Viotti was originally coupled on LP with the then relatively newly rediscovered concerto by Michael Haydn and though it’s not the most obvious bedfellow for the Beethoven it’s not been re-issued for a good while and I prefer it to yet another re-issue of the two Romances.

Jonathan Woolf
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on October 23, 2007, 06:22:10 AM
How do you like the Schniederhahn, mon vieux?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 23, 2007, 06:31:43 AM
How do you like the Schniederhahn, mon vieux?

It just so happens that I had asked Terry Barfoot that precise question, for which I received this response:

 Wolfgang Schneiderhan (1915-2002) was one of the finest violinists of his generation. He made a successful solo career founded upon the central classics of the concerto and solo repertory. This new compilation therefore captures him on his home territory; and most rewarding it is too. 

To begin with, the recorded sound is thoroughly acceptable in the case of the Brahms sonata, and much better than that in the case of the Beethoven concerto and its attendant overture. Carl Seeman was a sensitive pianist, perfectly suited to the role of duo partner, and the judgements of tempo and balance are well made in this Brahms performance, recorded live at the 1956 Edinburgh Festival. It says much for the stature of these artists that they could command a platform in a major concert venue, usually the preserve of orchestral rather than chamber music. While the sound has little bloom, it is admirable clear and all the details can be heard. What is more, the performance offers many insights, not least in the eloquent violin lines of the second movement Adagio. 

Istvan Kertész developed a highly successful relationship with the London Symphony Orchestra, and their full-toned performance of the Egmont Overture has excellent playing and a recorded sound that has a marvellously full body. This and the attendant concerto recording feature some of the best sound to be encountered in this important BBC Legends series. All credit to the original recording engineers, as to Tony Faulkner’s remastering. It seems scarcely credible that the performances took place 43 years ago. 

The performances themselves are impressive too. While that of the Egmont Overture does not really catch fire until the coda, known as the ‘Symphony of Victory’, the quality of the playing and the orchestral sound provide ample compensation. But for a really powerful and electric Egmont Overture try George Szell and the Vienna Philharmonic, coupled with the complete incidental music (Decca 425 972-2). 

Schneiderhan was a celebrated exponent of the Beethoven concerto and his Deutsche Grammophon recording (447 403) with Eugen Jochum and the Berlin Philharmonic has generally been highly regarded. At the Festival Hall in 1964 he again preferred Beethoven’s cadenza with timpani, arranged by the composer from his piano arrangement of the original concerto. He plays throughout with secure and full intonation, aided by a sympathetically warm acoustic, which was well captured by the original recording. Perhaps the microphone placement favours the soloist in the perspective, but that is hardly unusual. Once established the tempi always feel just right in every movement. 

As with the other issues in this series, there is no information about the music, but a full and well researched accompanying note about the artist in focus. This admirable example is by Tully Potter. Perhaps this is selling the project short, since Schneiderhan and Kertész give us an interpretation of the Beethoven Violin Concerto that can stand alongside the best. 

Terry Barfoot
[/color] 

 (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Oct07/Schneiderhan_bbcl42172.htm)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on October 23, 2007, 06:36:06 AM
Well, I admit I generally expected good things, enjoying the Kertész/LSO account of the Dvořák cycle, and Schniederhahn's recording of the Stravinsky Violin Concerto as well as I do . . . .
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: tiroirdelmare on October 23, 2007, 07:10:54 AM
Cool! That was quite interesting. I would like to know anything about the background of that particular instrument (maker, year, that sort of thing).

I am personally a great fan of fortepianos (thousands aren't ::) ), and always welcome an opportunity to see/hear one being played. :)

8)

Well, the story I heard from the re-builder was the following :
this fortepiano has been found in the basement of a school in Italy about ten years ago, during the restauration of that school. The masons found it funny to drop cement on the keyboard(!) but when the director of the school saw this he sent the fortepiano to a fortepiano re-builder, who managed to keep the old mechanic with the original leather on the hammers. I remember there were inscriptions of "Wien" on the front of the fortepiano, but don't know about the date.
For me it was the first time I saw a fortepiano and even my wife said it was so fantastic to play on it that she would never play the waldstein on a modern piano anymore :) But I guess that was just an emotional reaction, knowing her ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 23, 2007, 08:06:03 AM
Note to Gurn: during next roadtrip to Italy, investigate the basements of old schools and churches ........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 23, 2007, 01:20:00 PM
Twelve Things You Probably Didn't Know About Beethoven
By Laurie Shulman
23 Oct 2007


In honor of the Dallas Symphony's Beethoven Festival (Oct. 18-Nov. 11 and Nov. 29-Dec 2), a dozen tasty bits of trivia.



Many music lovers consider Beethoven to be the greatest musical genius who ever lived. The literature about him is expansive, since scholars continue to examine every aspect of his life and works. The general public has been no less curious, flocking to films such as Bernard Rose's Immortal Beloved (1994). Consequently, we know more about Beethoven than other composers--or think we do. Even seasoned concertgoers, however, may be surprised at some unusual information about his background, life, and colorful personality. Consider the following:

1. Beethoven's grandfather, also named Ludwig [Louis] van Beethoven (1712-1773), was the first of three generations of Beethoven musicians. Born in Antwerp, he later moved to Bonn to take the position of Hofkapellmeister in the court of Elector Maximilian Friedrich of Cologne.

2. Under the tutelage of his most important instructor, Christian Gottlob Neefe, Beethoven learned Bach's complete Well-Tempered Clavier, 48 preludes and fugues that were not well known in the 1780s. He was playing them by memory in his early teens.

3. Beethoven's first professional position was as court organist to Elector Max Franz in 1784. Five years later, he was playing viola in the elector's court orchestra; he was also a capable violinist.

4. Jerome Bonaparte, Napoleon's youngest brother and king of Westphalia at the height of Napoleon's empire, offered Beethoven the position of Kapellmeister in 1808. (The composer declined.)

5. After a visit to Vienna in 1817, the English piano maker Thomas Broadwood sent Beethoven a six-octave grand piano. According to Broadwood's biographer David Wainwright, "The case was Spanish mahogany, inlaid with marquetry and ormolu, the brass carrying-handles formed as laurel wreaths." Beethoven's name was inscribed along with a Latin translation noting the gift. Broadwood enlisted five other musicians to autograph the instrument, including the pianists Frederic Kalkbrenner and Johann Baptist Cramer. Franz Liszt acquired the instrument around 1846. Eventually he presented it to the Hungarian National Museum in Budapest.

6. Twelve museums in five European countries are devoted to Beethoven. Four of them are in Vienna, where he lived for most of his life, moving frequently within the city.

7. Beethoven's favorite composers were Mozart, Haydn, Bach, and Handel (he preferred Handel to Bach). Among older composers, he also revered Palestrina. Although he was critical of most contemporaries, he admired the operas of Spontini and Cherubini.

8. The concept of heroism, and specifically the death of a hero, is a recurrent theme in such great Beethoven works as the "Eroica" Symphony, the oratorio Christ on the Mount of Olives, Op. 85, and the incidental music to Goethe's Egmont. But heroism surfaced much earlier in Beethoven's music. His first known composition was a funeral cantata from 1781 that has not survived; in 1790 the city of Bonn commissioned him to write the Cantata on the Death of the Emperor Joseph II. We know it as WoO 87.

9. Most major composers have a thematic catalogue compiled by scholars. Bach has the Schmieder catalogue, abbreviated S. (or BWV for Bach Werke Verzeichnis); Mozart has the Köchel catalogue (source of the K. number); and Schubert the Deutsch catalogue (abbreviated D). Beethoven has multiple catalogues. Four 19th-century efforts were superseded by Georg Kinsky and Hans Halm's Das Werk Beethovens: Thematisch-Bibliographisches Verzeichnis in 1955, which is the standard. Kinsky and Halm included a special category, WoO, which stands for Werk ohne Opuszahl, or "work without opus number." Willy Hess published another catalogue in 1957 that catalogues Beethoven's unfinished works and sketches.

10. Dozens of Beethoven's conversation books survive from 1818 until 1827. They reflect thoughts communicated to the deaf composer by his friends, family, and associates, but not his own comments since he usually responded verbally. Consequently, these books, while a valuable biographical source, require the reader to reconstruct Beethoven's half of the conversation. They are filled with details about everyday life, from gossip to family matters to medical maladies to weather. Comparatively few of the entries pertain to Beethoven's music.

11. The familiar images of Beethoven show a craggy-faced man with wild, longish gray hair. All surviving portraits depict him as clean-shaven. During his last decade, however, he frequently allowed his beard to grow long, adding to his bizarre appearance. In these later years, most Viennese assumed that the famous composer, noted for his eccentricity, was more than a bit insane.

12. In addition to deafness, Beethoven suffered from lifelong bouts of intestinal disorders, beginning in his teens. Modern physicians who have analyzed reports of his stomach complaints and contemporary diagnoses believe that he may have suffered from Crohn's disease, a chronic, recurrent inflammatory enteritis. His final illness was cirrhosis of the liver. At the time, his death was attributed to abdominal dropsy (the modern term is ascites, an accumulation of fluid in the peritoneal cavity of the abdomen). A recent theory put forward this past summer asserts that he may have been inadvertently poisoned by lead by his final physician, exacerbating his liver condition.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on October 23, 2007, 01:22:46 PM
Another fact I recently discovered about Beethoven: his family were of Dutch origin, and their surname 'Beethoven' simpy means 'Beet garden'.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 23, 2007, 01:28:30 PM
Another fact I recently discovered about Beethoven: his family were of Dutch origin, and their surname 'Beethoven' simpy means 'Beet garden'.

I just read that yesterday as well ........ "hoven" means "garden", and, apparently, "beet" means "beet" ........


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 24, 2007, 07:22:57 AM
 Beethoven's cello pieces are the first sonatas in the history of music to treat the cello as an equal partner for the piano. Recording the deaf maestro's complete sonatas is meaningful in that one can ruminate the very essence of his life and works. *** Beethoven's five cello sonatas represent all of what is commonly considered his three periods, from the Classic period, when he was searching to find his own identity to get away from the shadow of Mozart and Hayden, and to have his own musical world; from the Romantic period, when Beethoven achieved his highest artistic goals; and finally the Spiritual period, ``where he really reaches out in his inner feelings and translates that into the art, which is called music,'' ***  (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/art/2007/10/135_12492.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Lethevich on October 24, 2007, 07:28:52 AM
Another fact I recently discovered about Beethoven: his family were of Dutch origin, and their surname 'Beethoven' simpy means 'Beet garden'.

I thought it meant "beetroot farmer" or something. I recall reading in numerous places that while his name (the van instead of von, especially) is obviously of Dutch origin, his family had been well established in Germany for several generations.

Edit: I assume that the things I read on this were written to debunk the occasional "Beethoven was almost the best Dutch composer" claim :P
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 24, 2007, 07:34:24 AM
I thought it meant "beetroot farmer" or something.

Well, a "beet" is a "root" ........ And a "farm" is a "garden" of sorts ........ Thus, "beet garden" = "beetroot farmer"
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on October 24, 2007, 08:22:59 AM
Or, perhaps, as many Flemish towns have names ending in -hove, Beethoven's ancestors may have come from Beet Town.

To a Bostonian, this has the ring of truth.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 24, 2007, 01:58:15 PM


Russian Roulette
Pianist Olga Kern alternates between grace and bombast at the Schermerhorn


by John Pitcher

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

 
Turgid Pianist Olga Kern It must have been warhorse night over at the Schermerhorn Symphony Center. Last weekend, the Nashville Symphony Orchestra under Albert-George Schram devoted much of its program to two of the most well-worn blockbusters in the repertoire: Beethoven’s “Emperor” Piano Concerto and Tchaikovsky’s “Pathétique” Symphony. Both works were splendidly—though not always subtly—performed.

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

Russian-born pianist Olga Kern was on hand for the Beethoven, and not surprisingly she brought her usual bombs-away style. But she also brought a degree of warmth, sophistication and lyricism that was, at least for this pianist, both welcome and surprising.

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

Kern certainly has an interesting story. A decade ago, she arrived at the 10th quadrennial Van Cliburn International Piano Competition as a rather ordinary-looking brunette named Olga Pushechnikova, and because of her unfocused playing she never advanced beyond the preliminary round. Fast-forward to 2001 and the 11th Cliburn Competition. The pianist has a new name (Kern), a new look (a blond in a hot red dress) and a new approach to piano playing (basically bombastic). She took no prisoners in her bracing account of Rachmaninoff’s Piano Concerto No. 3 during the final round and won the gold.

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

In the years since, Kern has understandably developed the reputation of a piano-pounding daredevil, yet in Nashville last week she also revealed polish and poetry. Beethoven’s “Emperor” concerto is itself a remarkable synthesis of the heroic and the poetic, and Kern gave both qualities their due. There was plenty of sparkle and dazzle in her performance of the concerto’s outer movements, but there was also considerable grace—she played trills and ornaments with rice-paper-like delicacy, and she approached the slow movement with the immediacy of a love song. Schram and the NSO, likewise, played down the regal pomp in the “Emperor” and instead performed with heartfelt exuberance.

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

Kern saved the fireworks for her two solo encores. The first, a Rachmaninoff arrangement of Mussorgsky’s Hopak, was played with muscle and athleticism. Her performance of Rimsky-Korsakov’s Flight of the Bumblebee (another Rachmaninoff arrangement), on the other hand, was played at such a blistering speed that it was almost unrecognizable. It was breathtaking to be sure. But it wasn’t very musical.

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

Schram and the NSO opened last week’s concert with American composer Russell Peck’s Gabriel. Lasting all of six minutes, this concert overture shows the archangel in three different guises—as the messenger who told Mary that she would give birth to the Savior Jesus; as the angel who gave the Koran to Mohammed; and as the trumpeter who would herald the end of the world.

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

On a superficial level, Peck’s score certainly seemed to suggest all of these scenarios, from the sweetness and light of the Annunciation to the minor-key darkness of the apocalypse. All the same, the music was so short, so sweet and so predictable (in his program notes the composer likens his score to a movie soundtrack) that you had to wonder: would one of God’s mightiest preternatural creations really march to the beat of a musical bonbon?

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

There was little subtlety in the NSO’s reading of the Tchaikovsky “Pathétique” Symphony, in large part because the orchestra’s resident conductor Albert-George Schram seemed to know only two conducting gestures—give me a big sound, and give me a really big sound. (At one point, Schram may have been attempting a third gesture of give me a really, REALLY big sound when he lost his grip on the baton, which went flying toward the first violin section.)

(http://www.nashvillescene.com/Stories/Arts/Music/2007/10/25/music_class_okern.jpg)

The musicians, for their collective part, made the most of Schram’s conducting style, and in the process delivered a “Pathétique” Symphony that sounded intensely Russian—their passion was more febrile, their melancholy was darker and their climaxes were edgier. The hyperemotional Tchaikovsky no doubt would have approved.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2007, 02:04:55 PM
Interesting description of her: wonder what she looks like... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Schubert: Winterreise - Martiti Talvela / Ralf Gothoni - Die Nebensonnen ('Drei Sonnen sah ich'), song for voice & piano (Winterreise), D. 911/23 (Op. 89/23)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 24, 2007, 02:17:56 PM
wonder what she looks like... :)

That's really shallow of you, Gurn ....... anyhow, we have no idea what she looks like ........

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 24, 2007, 02:27:36 PM
Olga Kern playing the D Minor PC of Rach

http://www.youtube.com/v/f8hiYyZ440k
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2007, 03:12:52 PM
That's really shallow of you, Gurn ....... anyhow, we have no idea what she looks like ........



;D

Aw, now, d, how could I resist that? :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Soler Works for 2 Organs - Mathot / Koopman - Soler Concerto #1 in C for 2 Organs 2nd mvmt
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: scsinger01 on October 24, 2007, 03:39:28 PM
so tonight im going to listen to the 9th symphony in it's fullness :D  i have coffee (not to keep awake, just to add to the atmosphere) and a bag of sunchips. wish me luck
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 25, 2007, 07:12:54 AM
so tonight im going to listen to the 9th symphony in it's fullness :D  i have coffee (not to keep awake, just to add to the atmosphere) and a bag of sunchips. wish me luck

Which of the 219 versions will you be listening to?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 25, 2007, 07:14:56 AM


(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/3015_coverpic.jpg)

 Dating from the late 1950s, these generally fine performances show Solti's consistency as a Beethoven interpreter. In fact, timings are virtually identical to his later versions (give or take a repeat or two). Even at this comparatively early date a craggy directness entirely appropriate to Beethoven characterized the conductor's approach--and how many contemporaries at the time took the exposition repeat in the Eroica's first movement? (CLICK FOR MORE)  (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=3015)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 25, 2007, 07:18:32 AM
(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11244_coverpic.jpg)

LUDWIG VAN BEETHOVEN
Piano Concerto No. 5 "Emperor"; Piano Sonata No. 28 in A major Op. 101
Hélène Grimaud (piano) / Staatskapelle Dresden / Vladimir Jurowski
Deutsche Grammophon- B0009840-02(CD)

 This is without question the best recording that Hélène Grimaud has made for DG. The opening "Emperor" gushes forth like a sparkling fountain, at a freshly invigorating basic tempo. Give credit to Vladimir Jurowski for his excellent collaboration, and to a Staatskapelle Dresden that really stays on top of its collective toes. Grimaud even manages to make something special out of those upward scales that so often signal the pianist's entrances and exits. Only in the slow movement does she indulge in a touch of the preciosity that mars some of her more recent efforts, but it's a fleeting memory at best, and the finale goes with all of the joyful enthusiasm that anyone could ask. (CLICK FOR MORE)  (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11244)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on October 28, 2007, 11:01:35 AM
October 27, 2007
Beethoven’s Evolution, From Playful to Grand
By ALLAN KOZINN
fr NYT.com
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/10/27/arts/schiffspan.jpg)

If your yardstick is whether a work is well known, chronological surveys of Beethoven’s piano sonatas move slowly at first: It isn’t until the Sonata No. 8 in C minor (Op. 13) that the first nickname (“Pathétique”) appears. Yet the “Pathétique” was composed in 1798, still early in the story; it was another six years before the “Eroica” made Beethoven a bona fide symphonic revolutionary.

One thing Andras Schiff is showing in his Carnegie Hall traversal of the sonatas, played in the order Beethoven composed them, is that a handful of relatively small but decisive steps lead from the Haydnesque playfulness and Mozartean elegance of the earliest works to the grand proclamations — sometimes elevated, sometimes brash — of the mature ones.

In the second installment, on Wednesday, the three Opus 10 Sonatas traced that journey vividly. In the Sonata No. 5 in C minor (Op. 10, No. 1), Beethoven begins with a thoroughly Haydnesque theme but is in his own rhythmically jagged territory before the end of the first page. That work’s slow movement looks to Mozart in its graceful, singing top line, but in the rippling finale, Beethoven leaves his predecessors behind.

Mr. Schiff, oddly, did not stop between this work and the Sonata No. 6 in F (Op. 10, No. 2), which moves the narrative further by setting graceful themes against dark, brooding accompaniments. But he did pause for a bow before the Sonata No. 7 in D (Op. 10, No. 3), the black sheep of this trilogy and the most dramatic: Some of its rumbling figuration seems almost to nip at the heels of the “Pathétique,” composed a few months later. In Mr. Schiff’s reading, the Seventh Sonata looked ahead in other ways too. He played the Menuetto, for example, with a fluidity that made it sound, if only for an instant, like Chopin.

The “Pathétique” had the second half of the program to itself, and Mr. Schiff played it with a thrilling tempestuousness. His readings of all four works had elements in common that say a lot about the current fashion in Beethoven playing. Tempos were brisk, for example, and movements proceeded at speed to the last note, with no hint of rallentando.

Chordal passages (and not only those marked sforzando) were played with an assertive sharpness that sometimes made them sound like brash interruptions amid more courtly surroundings: just the kind of thing Beethoven would do. On the other hand, in music marked pianissimo (or even simply piano), Mr. Schiff made no concession to the size of the hall: these passages were whispered.

Mr. Schiff was generous to a fault in his encore. He played Bach’s Partita in C minor (BWV 826), complete and with all the sectional repeats.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 01, 2007, 05:03:51 PM
 Classical CD Highlights: November  (http://www.playbillarts.com/news/article/7303.html)
By Michael S. Markowitz
01 Nov 2007


Beethoven: String Quartets, Op. 18 (Harmonia Mundi HMU 907436)
Beethoven: Late Quartets (Philips Originals 289 475 8685)
Haydn: String Quartets, Op. 9 (Hyperion CDA 67611)


The Tokyo String Quartet continues its Beethoven cycle with the master's first six essays in the genre, the Op. 18 set. The album, a two-disc set priced like a single disc, follows the Tokyo's acclaimed recording of the "Rasumovsky" Quartets.

Philips releases, at a budget price, the Quartetto Italiano's performances of the composer's late quartets. The three-CD set completes the reissue on Philips Originals of the Italiano's entire Beethoven cycle, considered one of the finer ones.

The London Haydn Quartet plays the Op. 9 quartets of guess-who on a new Hyperion release. The set, another two-for-one issue, marks the ensemble's label debut.

A work often played by string quartets, Haydn's Seven Last Words of Christ on the Cross, is performed in its orchestral version by Jordi Savall and his Le Concert des Nations. The recording, made in the Spanish church that was the site of the work's first performance, includes biblical quotation in Latin interspersed between the movements.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 04, 2007, 08:53:37 AM
BEETHOVEN, PIANO CONCERTO NO. 4
MOZART, PIANO CONCERTO NO. 24
(http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2007/11/04/reissues_celebrate_great_artists_of_the_past/)

Clara Haskil, piano
Orchestre National de France, conducted by André Cluytens
(Pristine Classical)

Reissues celebrate great artists of the past
By David Perkins, Globe Correspondent  |  November 4, 2007

Whatever you may think of the classical music scene on CD - some say it's dead, some say it's coming back - one thing is certain: Reissues are bringing us some thrilling performances from the past, in improved sound. Here are some of the best recent issues.

LvB 4 / Mozart 24

When the Romanian pianist Clara Haskil died in 1960 at 65, it was the end of a life filled with physical pain and illness. As a child, she had been fitted in a plaster cast to prevent scoliosis. At 45, she had a brain tumor behind one eye surgically removed. When she sat down at the piano, however, this slight, shy, bent woman was transformed into a goddess.

Two CDs of vivid live performances, originally brought out by Music & Arts, have been refurbished by the British firm Pristine Classical. The first is of concertos by Mozart (No. 24 in C Minor) and Beethoven (No. 4 in G), performed in 1955 with the Orchestre National de France, under André Cluytens. The orchestra often suffers from poor tuning and ragged ensemble, and unfortunately Pristine's cleanup job makes this even more evident. But Haskil!

In the Beethoven, the opening chords are a bit hesitant, but the run after the opening orchestral statement flows like water down a sluice. Her tone is bright, the passagework fearless and clear. This is very Mozartian Beethoven: airy, buoyant. The second movement has tragic grandeur and spaciousness and ends with an exhausted sigh. The finale has a few fudged notes, but that's the price paid for excitement and spontaneity.

In the Mozart, the orchestra's all-out playing and fat string tone seem dated in our era of leaner, more pointed playing. But Cluytens sets driving tempos, and Haskil finds all the singing quality and tragic depth in what some consider the greatest of Mozart's 28 concertos.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: c#minor on November 04, 2007, 07:50:35 PM
I was thinking of going to the concert at the Schermerhorn, but i had to go out of town. What a shame i missed out on that one.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 05, 2007, 02:25:51 PM
GMG's very own Mark Antony Owen has given this recording of the LvB VC an enthusiastic thumbs-up:

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/33/999633.jpg)

Says Mr. Owen:

"Faust takes a good, clean line throughout, tempi never drag (damn you Rostropovich/Vengerov  ), and she uses Beethoven's own cadenzas from his piano transcription of the Violin Concerto - she took Schneiderhan's violin transcriptions of said cadenzas, but re-adapted these a little so that they conform to what Beethoven originally wrote. It's a superb and refreshing performance, and the engineering is a tad less claustrophobic than in the pairing."
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 06, 2007, 12:51:42 PM
Helene Grimaud -- LvB Piano Sonata no. 30



mvt 1

http://www.youtube.com/v/GVaOeEb_sm0
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 06, 2007, 12:53:02 PM
mvt 2

http://www.youtube.com/v/TARA7Jf3UK0
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 06, 2007, 12:55:21 PM
Grimaud LvB PS 30 part III

http://www.youtube.com/v/fIvxFUOxVxI
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 06, 2007, 01:02:49 PM
Beethoven was heavily influenced by Mozart's 20th Piano Concerto, ergo, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/v/3dkK1iw2SMk

Uchida performs and conducts Mozart's Piano Concerto #20 - Allegro I

(note: this is no doubt infringing on someone's copyrights, so get it while it lasts)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 06, 2007, 01:04:17 PM
Rondo

http://www.youtube.com/v/7ZGVtgDQjdM
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 06, 2007, 01:14:26 PM
Myra Hess Appassionata

http://www.youtube.com/v/_zHbpLg9_bo
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Renfield on November 06, 2007, 06:56:55 PM
With apologies for being off-topic, the last video above reminded me something:

Am I the only one to whom Myra Hess looks like Oliver Hardy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_and_Hardy) with a wig? A great pianist, of course; but I'm having trouble "shaking" that connection, whenever I see her. :P
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on November 06, 2007, 07:16:09 PM
With apologies for being off-topic, the last video above reminded me something:

Am I the only one to whom Myra Hess looks like Oliver Hardy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_and_Hardy) with a wig? A great pianist, of course; but I'm having trouble "shaking" that connection, whenever I see her. :P

Close your eyes if you must. Don't let great playing like that pass you by... ;)



Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 07, 2007, 07:49:30 AM
(http://images.publicradio.org/content/2007/11/06/20071106_classical_tracks_2.jpg)

 The "Emperor" Concerto is usually thought to be as bold and heroic as its nickname. By taking a different, introspective approach, Grimaud sheds new light on this classic.  (http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2007/11/06/classical_tracks/)

Title: Classical Music as an Anti-depressant
Post by: BachQ on November 07, 2007, 07:57:30 AM
 

Classical music as antidepressant

This study comes out of Alzahra University, in Tehran, where a group of researchers, noting that music therapy has already been shown to reduce pain, improve sleep quality, and improve mood in cancer patients underoing therapy and multiple sclerosis patients, wondered if music might alleviate depression as well. It does. They took 56 depressed subjects, had them listen to Beethoven's 3d and 5th piano sonatas for 15 minutes twice a week in a clean, otherwise quiet room -- and saw their depression scores on the standard Beck Depression Scale [improve] signficantly. No side effects! And music is cheap -- a lifetime of Beethoven for the price of a couple weeks of Prozac.

This obviously needs further work, but as a music lover I find it damn encouraging. The resesarchers plan on doing another study using EEGs instruments to monitor brain changes, and I'd love to see some imaging work on this. ... If classical music publishers could match the drug industry's marketing budgets, we'd be listening to a lot of Beethoven sonatas. Which you can do, briefly, by (going here for a mood-improving listen.

 (http://blog.sciam.com/index.php?title=amusing_pain_elevating_music_and_other_j&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 07, 2007, 02:26:57 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/_Vmhw49baEI

Isaac Stern, violin
Eugene Istomin, piano
Leonard Rose, cello (1918-1984)
'Allegro con brio' (quasi tranquillo) from "Trio in C minor, Op.1, No.3"
Music by Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
(CBC telecast of June 23, 1965)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 07, 2007, 02:30:28 PM
3rd Movement of Beethoven PC 3 played with Alexei Volodin and conducted by Kocsis.

http://www.youtube.com/v/VMqzw5zuM6U
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: c#minor on November 07, 2007, 02:30:56 PM


Classical music as antidepressant

This study comes out of Alzahra University, in Tehran, where a group of researchers, noting that music therapy has already been shown to reduce pain, improve sleep quality, and improve mood in cancer patients underoing therapy and multiple sclerosis patients, wondered if music might alleviate depression as well. It does. They took 56 depressed subjects, had them listen to Beethoven's 3d and 5th piano sonatas for 15 minutes twice a week in a clean, otherwise quiet room -- and saw their depression scores on the standard Beck Depression Scale [improve] signficantly. No side effects! And music is cheap -- a lifetime of Beethoven for the price of a couple weeks of Prozac.

This obviously needs further work, but as a music lover I find it damn encouraging. The resesarchers plan on doing another study using EEGs instruments to monitor brain changes, and I'd love to see some imaging work on this. ... If classical music publishers could match the drug industry's marketing budgets, we'd be listening to a lot of Beethoven sonatas. Which you can do, briefly, by (going here for a mood-improving listen.

 (http://blog.sciam.com/index.php?title=amusing_pain_elevating_music_and_other_j&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1)


is this new news???

It has always been understood the classical music, and other music improves mood. But i can guess that if those same people listened to Tchaikovsky's 6th some might become suicidal. Music is an emotional medium, thats why we love it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on November 07, 2007, 02:32:08 PM
(http://images.publicradio.org/content/2007/11/06/20071106_classical_tracks_2.jpg)

 The "Emperor" Concerto is usually thought to be as bold and heroic as its nickname. By taking a different, introspective approach, Grimaud sheds new light on this classic.  (http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2007/11/06/classical_tracks/)



I can't decide whether or not to take the plunge with this disc. Not normally one to be swayed by reviews, I've nonetheless got cold feet after having read less than inspiring things about the performances. :-\
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Renfield on November 07, 2007, 05:47:52 PM
I can't decide whether or not to take the plunge with this disc. Not normally one to be swayed by reviews, I've nonetheless got cold feet after having read less than inspiring things about the performances. :-\

I find Gramophone to be dead-on, for this one. But I still don't regret buying it: it's an interesting and rather unique performance. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on November 08, 2007, 01:13:38 AM
I find Gramophone to be dead-on, for this one. But I still don't regret buying it: it's an interesting and rather unique performance. :)

Can't recall: were they particularly in favour or against?
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Renfield on November 08, 2007, 02:31:28 AM
Can't recall: were they particularly in favour or against?

They said it could be subtitled: "A Tale of Two Emperors", with regard to the fact that the performance is very much of two minds. And I definitely agree that the soloist and the orchestra are playing in parallel, on occasion, rather than in tandem (if you know what I mean).

So overall, it's a well-played piano part with a well-player orchestra part, if not necessarily a well-played concerto.

But it is well-played, with a particularly colourful response from all concerned. And as I said above, I'm happy that I bought it. ;)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on November 08, 2007, 02:32:46 AM
They said it could be subtitled: "A Tale of Two Emperors", with regard to the fact that the performance is very much of two minds. And I definitely agree that the soloist and the orchestra are playing in parallel, on occasion, rather than in tandem (if you know what I mean).

Yes, of course. I remember now. :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 12, 2007, 07:48:32 AM
FROM: NYT
November 12, 2007
Music Review | Simón Bolívar Youth Symphony Orchestra

A Young Orchestra Led by a Youthful Major Player
By ANTHONY TOMMASINI
When Gustavo Dudamel walked on the stage at Carnegie Hall yesterday afternoon to conduct the first of two programs with the Simón Bolívar Youth Symphony Orchestra of Venezuela, it looked for a moment as if his much-touted unflappability were going to desert him. With his unkempt mane of curly hair and slight build, he looked a little ashen-faced and shy.

You could hardly blame him for being nervous. This was his first appearance in New York, and few musicians have ever faced such pressure. Mr. Dudamel, a 26-year-old Venezuelan, is one of the most talked-about performers in classical music, “the most astonishingly gifted conductor I have ever come across,” in the words of Simon Rattle. In April, in a breathtaking decision, the Los Angeles Philharmonic appointed Mr. Dudamel to succeed Esa-Pekka Salonen as its music director in 2009.

But once Mr. Dudamel took the podium and began Berlioz’s “Roman Carnival,” he exuded command and excitement. He drew sweeping, urgent, often brilliant playing from the young musicians.

Over the last 30 years, Venezuela has developed the “sistema,” arguably the most ambitious program of music education and orchestra training in the world. Some 250,000 young people take part. The 200 best of them, ranging in age from 15 to 25, are members of the Simón Bolívar Orchestra, based in Caracas. Mr. Dudamel, who emerged from the sistema, has conducted the ensemble for almost nine years. There is a palpably intense bond between them.

So for Dudamel watchers, this concert was a special case. Those in the audience hoping to find out what the buzz is about may have to wait until he makes his debut with the New York Philharmonic, on Nov. 29. Still, this youth orchestra was very impressive, and the general qualities of its conductor’s communicative artistry and immense skills came through.

Mr. Dudamel is a passionate and intuitive musician. Every phrase of the Berlioz had an expressive idea behind it, a compelling character. When the carnival of the title perks up, the music turns boisterous, and the playing here had almost intimidating energy and brassy power.

In Chopin’s Piano Concerto No. 2 in F minor, the young players were joined by a master soloist, Emanuel Ax. For a youth orchestra trying to make an impression on tour, this concerto is not an ideal choice. Chopin was rather hapless at orchestration. In whole stretches the orchestra has little to do but prolong sustained harmonies that back up the continually inventive piano part.

In the long orchestral exposition, Mr. Dudamel and his players really tried to make something happen. They projected the main theme with urgency, taking every opportunity to highlight an inner voice or a restless bass line. In the genial second theme, the playing was oddly cool, almost metronomic. But there was reason to the approach: Later, when Mr. Ax took over that theme, the lyrical freedom he introduced was all the more affecting for what had come before.

Mr. Ax, playing with his customary refinement and integrity, seemed inspired by these young players. In the mazurkalike finale, he and the orchestra might have been dance partners.

After intermission came a go-for-broke and exuberantly Romantic account of Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony. For all the sheer excitement, this was not a particularly distinctive or probing interpretation. Again, Mr. Dudamel came across as an instinctive rather than an analytic musician. Still, there were thrilling compensations: slicing attacks on fortissimo chords; ominous crescendos that swelled to the breaking point.

The concert ended with a frenzied fiesta. The players donned jackets based on the Venezuelan flag and played a selection of Latin American works, though one of them was “Mambo” from “West Side Story,” and the inclusion would have delighted Bernstein. During the performance the players leapt off their seats, shouted and shimmied. Cellists twirled their instruments as if they were spinning their dates during the dance at the gym.

For all his charisma, I don’t think Mr. Dudamel will be able to get the players of the Los Angeles Philharmonic to leap off their seats and dance. But who knows?

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 12, 2007, 04:29:47 PM
BEETHOVEN: Violin Concerto in D Major, Op. 61; PROKOFIEV: Violin Concerto No. 2 in G Minor, Op. 63 - Berl Senofsky, violin/Boston Symphony Orchestra/ Pierre Monteux (Beethoven)/American Symphony Orchestra/Leopold Stokowski (Prokofiev) - Cembal d’amour
An important document of a major violin talent - among the Best of the Year.  (http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=3447)

(http://www.audaud.com/photos/20071112111106_senofsky-cd-re.jpg)

BEETHOVEN: Violin Concerto in D Major, Op. 61; PROKOFIEV: Violin Concerto
No. 2 in G Minor, Op. 63 - Berl Senofsky, violin/Boston Symphony Orchestra/ Pierre Monteux (Beethoven)/American Symphony Orchestra/Leopold Stokowski (Prokofiev)

Cembal d’amour Historic Series CD 126,  70:57 (Distrib. Qualiton) *****:


Cembal d’amour brings out the third of its recorded celebrations of the art of American violinist Berl Senofsky (1926-2002), the only American-born violinist to have won Queen Elisabeth International Music Competition in Belgium. His teaching at the Peabody Conservatory of Music 1965-1996 possesses all the force of legend. I have lamented prior that aside from Cembal d’amour, no label (including RCA and Philips) has resurrected the few commercial records Senofsky made, especially his gripping Brahms Concerto with Rudolf Moralt, done for an Epic LP.

Here, Senofsky collaborates with two titans of the orchestral palette, and I will start with the Prokofiev (10 January 1966) from Carnegie Hall under Leopold Stokowski. Long a sponsor of Prokofiev’s music, Stokowski (1882-1977) made no inscriptions of Prokofiev’s concertos, although documents exist of the G Minor Piano Concerto and the Cello Concertino. Sporting a hugely gracious tone--albeit in somewhat distant sonics--Senofsky exults in this lyrical and metrically demonic work, effecting a long line that rivals the esteemed Heifetz/Koussevitzky interpretation that set the standard for everyone else. The tenderness Senofsky instills in the slow movement complements the demonic virtuosity marking his grasp of this work, which he swallows whole. The last movement, which likes to exploit Iberian impulses in its rather exotic division of the bar line into unorthodox modes of four, has Senofsky rasping and singing alternately in rapturous swoops, even when his instrument wants to sound like a demented banshee. The last page elicits howls of praise from a mesmerized audience.

It is a rare delight to hear veteran conductor Pierre Monteux (1875-1964) in the Beethoven Concerto from Tanglewood (9 August 1958), a collaboration to complement his fine inscription for RCA of the Brahms Concerto with the Boston Symphony and soloist Henryk Szeryng. Monteux establishes a broad canvas for the opening exposition, and Senofsky enters with half steps and soft diminuendi in the manner and drive of Nathan Milstein. The two proceed to the mingled measures--in bright sound--alternately stately and lyrically exalted, with an undeviating sense of architecture. Senofsky affectionately and passionately realizes the cadenzas by Fritz Kreisler, who was himself an honored attendee at the concert. Senofsky luscious tone and fluent style carry the first movement by leaps and bounds, the pedal points from the orchestra breaking out, tutti, into energetic waves of exquisitely balanced sound.  Applause erupts after the first movement, only a taste of the cataclysm that follows a timeless Larghetto and volcanic Rondo, whose each repetition of the jovial, bouncy tune gains both momentum and esprit. An important document of a major violin talent - among the Best of the Year.

-- Gary Lemco
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 12, 2007, 04:39:33 PM
Missa Solemnis -- Stratford-upon-Avon Choral Society

 Stratford-upon-Avon choral society’s Autumn concert is the magnificent Missa Solemnis by Beethoven on Saturday November 17th 2007 in Holy Trinity Church, Old Town, Stratford at 7.30pm.
 (http://www.ebrington.com/blog/425/startford-upon-avon-choral-society-beethoven-missa-solemnis)

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 13, 2007, 11:35:03 AM
(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11279_coverpic.jpg)

BEETHOVEN, Violin Concerto; Violin Sonata No. 9 "Kreutzer"
Vadim Repin (violin); Martha Argerich (piano); VPO / Muti
Deutsche Grammophon- B0009663-0(CD)


 CLASSICS TODAY REVIEW: "Repin produces a big yet sweet tone married to lovingly delicate phrasing. There is backbone in his performance, but some listeners might well feel that there's not enough. Interpretively, Repin comes closer to the heartfelt lyricism of Perlman than to the more aggressively virtuoso stance of Heifetz, though both of these artists engage the emotions more than Repin does."   (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11279)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 19, 2007, 04:03:09 AM
 The BEAUX ARTS TRIO makes its final UK appearances. Two works by Schubert – Piano Trio in B flat, D898, and Piano Trio in E flat, D929 – in the first concert (Sun 7.30pm); and Beethoven’s Variations in G and Archduke Piano Trio in the second (Mon 1pm). Wigmore Hall, Wigmore Street, W1 (www.wigmore-hall.org.uk 020-7935 2141)  (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2213206,00.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 19, 2007, 04:03:59 AM
Andrew Clements
Friday November 16, 2007
The Guardian

 “Uchida’s …  account of the Hammerklavier … is so overwhelming, [it is] perhaps the finest to appear on disc since Emil Gilels' 25 years ago.  (http://arts.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/story/0,,2211451,00.html)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 19, 2007, 04:05:51 AM
 Gilels 1971 LvB op. 101 pt. 1/4  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORrYCjtckM0)

 Gilels 1971 LvB op. 101 pt. 2/4  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkeMlZThfHc)

 Gilels 1971 LvB op. 101 pt. 3/4  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=repcFTXxL7A)

 Gilels 1971 LvB op. 101 pt. 4/4  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXYbGr5RaKM)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on November 19, 2007, 04:55:44 AM
(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11279_coverpic.jpg)

BEETHOVEN, Violin Concerto; Violin Sonata No. 9 "Kreutzer"
Vadim Repin (violin); Martha Argerich (piano); VPO / Muti
Deutsche Grammophon- B0009663-0(CD)


 CLASSICS TODAY REVIEW: "Repin produces a big yet sweet tone married to lovingly delicate phrasing. There is backbone in his performance, but some listeners might well feel that there's not enough. Interpretively, Repin comes closer to the heartfelt lyricism of Perlman than to the more aggressively virtuoso stance of Heifetz, though both of these artists engage the emotions more than Repin does."   (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11279)


When faced with choosing between this and Faust on Harmonia Mundi, Rob Cowan (one of very few reviewers whose opinions I do respect) went with Faust. And though I've not heard Repin's account of either work, I'm prepared to go with Cowan on this, as his description of the DG recording sounded ominously like that God-awful, drawn-out Vengerov/Rostropovich reading on EMI that I'm forever lambasting. ;D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Renfield on November 19, 2007, 05:06:53 AM
When faced with choosing between this and Faust on Harmonia Mundi, Rob Cowan (one of very few reviewers whose opinions I do respect) went with Faust. And though I've not heard Repin's account of either work, I'm prepared to go with Cowan on this, as his description of the DG recording sounded ominously like that God-awful, drawn-out Vengerov/Rostropovich reading on EMI that I'm forever lambasting. ;D

And the Faust account is quite wonderful on its own right, too! :)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on November 19, 2007, 11:13:52 AM
Quote from: www.classicstoday.com
Interpretively, Repin comes closer to the heartfelt lyricism of Perlman than to the more aggressively virtuoso stance of Heifetz, though both of these artists engage the emotions more than Repin does.

Oh, statements like this inspire a rolling of the eyes, they do.  I've heard Repin play the Shostakovich First Concerto, and his playing "engages the emotions" just fine, in my experience.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Mark on November 19, 2007, 01:31:11 PM
And the Faust account is quite wonderful on its own right, too! :)

Absolutely. Sounds just perfect to my ears. 0:)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 26, 2007, 04:08:34 AM
Two takes on Carlos Kleiber's conducting the finale of LvB 7

Carlos Kleiber - Beethoven symphony No.7, Op.92 : mov.4
Bavarian State Orchestra


http://www.youtube.com/v/19L5lqpmM2w

Compare:

Carlos Kleiber -Beethoven symphony No.7, Op.92 : mov.4
Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra


http://www.youtube.com/v/VLkZvsp62iU&feature=related
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 26, 2007, 04:16:21 AM
Releases 11/20/2007

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/100/1009141.jpg)

1.  Concerto for Violin and Cello in A minor, Op. 102 "Double" by Johannes Brahms
Performer:  Thomas Zehetmair (Violin), Antonio Meneses (Cello)
Conductor:  Kurt Sanderling
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Cologne West German Radio Symphony Orchestra
 
2.  Symphony no 6 in F major, Op. 68 "Pastoral" by Ludwig van Beethoven
Conductor:  Kurt Sanderling
 
3.  Fantasia in C minor, Op. 80 "Choral Fantasy" by Ludwig van Beethoven
Orchestra/Ensemble:  USSR Radio/TV Large Symphony Orchestra,  Russian State Academy Chorus

 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on November 28, 2007, 04:04:02 AM
 2nd International Beethoven Competition for Piano in Bonn, December 3-13, 2007  (http://www.beethoven-competition-bonn.de/2007/en/)


A generously endowed piano competition in honor of Ludwig van Beethoven, to be held every two years in Bonn, will take place for the second time in 2007, beginning next week on December 3d. Pianists, born between 1975 and 1987, from all over the world are invited to take part in the 2nd International Beethoven Competition Bonn for Piano.  This top-level competition focuses on works by Beethoven from every phase of his creative life. One of the special aims of this competition is to place these works into a programmatic context that underlines the composer’s outstanding importance as a creative and innovative source of ideas for the international music world.


(http://www.beethoven-competition-bonn.de/2007/img/laureates/2005/Henri_Sigfridsson_s.jpg)

In 2005, Henri Sigfridsson from Finland was the winner of the first prize, endowed with EUR 30,000, in the International Beethoven Competition for Piano staged for the first time in Bonn in 2005.

2005 2d prize EUR 20,000 (http://www.beethoven-competition-bonn.de/2007/img/laureates/2005/Norie_Takahashi_s.jpg)

2005 3d prize EUR 10,000 (http://www.beethoven-competition-bonn.de/2007/img/laureates/2005/David_Kadouch_s.jpg)


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on December 04, 2007, 10:51:52 AM
December 4, 2007, New York Times
Music Review
Beethoven’s Violin Sonatas as a Series of Dialogues
By ALLAN KOZINN

The 92nd Street Y is smitten with the idea of Beethoven cycles this season. In September the Kalichstein-Laredo-Robinson Trio played all the piano trios in chronological order in an all-day marathon. Now the violinist Christian Tetzlaff and the pianist Alexander Lonquich are playing the Sonatas for Violin and Piano. Mr. Tetzlaff and Mr. Lonquich are in less of a hurry: Having played the first four sonatas on Thursday, they picked up with the fifth — “Spring” Sonata — as well as the sixth and seventh on Sunday afternoon, and will play a concluding concert tonight.

The Beethoven of the “Spring” Sonata was 30 and no longer the feisty Haydn acolyte he had been three years earlier, when he wrote his first violin sonatas, nor was he the iconoclast he would become in another four years. In this work’s opening movement, at least, he sounds atypically at ease and willing to pour melodic balm on his listeners. In fact, except for the teasing syncopations in the Scherzos of this work and of the Sonata No. 7 (Op. 30, No. 2), he maintains this uncharacteristic gentility right up to the “Kreutzer” Sonata, the ninth in the set.

Mr. Tetzlaff and Mr. Lonquich seemed disinclined to see the works quite that way, but they weren’t ready to discard the possibility entirely. So if their brisk reading of the “Spring” Sonata’s graceful opening sounded oddly aloof, they compensated in the slow movements of all three works and in the rich variations that close the Sonata No. 6 (Op. 30, No. 1).

In these Mr. Tetzlaff produced a warm, singing tone, acknowledging the music’s lyricism without veering into sentimentality. He tended to use dynamic suppleness rather than vibrato as an expressive engine, and when he used vibrato, it was lavish enough to make a phrase blossom, but not so wide as to call attention to itself.

Mr. Lonquich’s contribution was a crisply articulated, extroverted piano line that was never subservient, even when it had only accompanying figuration. That said, Mr. Lonquich never stepped on Mr. Tetzlaff’s lines, and Mr. Tetzlaff adopted a similar approach: When the piano was in the spotlight, Mr. Tetzlaff’s accompanying lines were shapely and full of character.

The most pleasing aspect of this collaboration was the degree to which Mr. Tetzlaff and Mr. Lonquich played this music as a series of dialogues, with phrases shaped as questions and rejoinders, assertions and rebuttals, and stretches in which the pleasure of agreement created its own energy and pushed the conversation forward.

Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on December 05, 2007, 09:23:29 AM
Barenboim's masterclass about Beethoven (PART 1) Chicago 2005, Symphony Hall

http://www.youtube.com/v/40q4P-dyn0o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on December 05, 2007, 09:24:23 AM

Barenboim's masterclass about Beethoven (PART 2)

http://www.youtube.com/v/-a_5qkIr8bc
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on December 05, 2007, 09:25:26 AM
Barenboim's masterclass about Beethoven (PART 3)

http://www.youtube.com/v/gF0xTTf_OMI
 
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on December 07, 2007, 08:21:43 AM
Mammoth effort brings out the best in Beethoven
07 Dec 2007

A professor of music has spent 10 years examining every note of every authentic source of every Beethoven piano sonata to produce what he feels is the truest representation of the composer's work.
Barry Cooper from The University of Manchester has published a revised version of all 35 sonatas - including three little-known pieces printed when the composer was 12 - for the Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music.

Based at the University's School of Arts, Histories and Cultures, Professor Cooper, who is one of the world's leading Beethoven experts, has published the work in three volumes.

He is widely known for completing the first movement of Beethoven's unfinished tenth symphony, premiered at the Royal Festival Hall in 1988.


The thousands of notes examined for his latest work are accompanied by over 150,000 words of detailed commentary.

He said: "What I've done is try to reproduce what Beethoven actually wrote - and what he meant to write - more accurately than in any previous edition.

"For example, one note in particular has been the subject of debate ever since it was first published in the early 19th century - an A sharp in the opus 106 Sonata in B flat major known as the "Hammerklavier".

"Beethoven probably forgot to cancel the sharp and an 'A natural' makes more sense.

"And what I've also done, which has not been done before, is to relate what Beethoven wrote to what we know about the notation and performing styles of his day, wherever there's any uncertainty.

"This detailed commentary should be of great help for all performers.

"If you know the sonatas well, you'll certainly be able to tell the difference."

He added: "All other recent editions have 32 sonatas. The three extra ones are normally omitted as they were very early works written when Beethoven was 12.

"I feel there is no reason to omit them as they are full scale works.

"Moreover, the first complete edition of Beethoven's piano sonatas, published by Beethoven's friend Haslinger, did contain the extra three.

"As Beethoven himself may have been involved, it suggests he would have approved."

Leslie East, Executive Director: Syllabus & Publishing for ABRSM, commented: "The new edition of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas is a landmark in the history of music scholarship and publishing.

"Professor Cooper's remarkable forensic examination of the history and sources of this essential canon of the piano literature is matched by the immensely practical and educationally valuable insights he brings to issues of interpretation and performance.

"ABRSM Publishing is proud to be the publisher of an edition that provides a definitive text alongside such a uniquely comprehensive picture of these extraordinary works."

NOTES FOR EDITORS
Professor Cooper is available for comment

The official launch was at the Wigmore Hall on 7 December presented by John Suchet, newscaster and Beethoven devotee who has written several books on the composer.

Professor Cooper will talk about his approach to the edition.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on December 12, 2007, 04:31:29 AM
Says Bruce Hodges about the Vänskä/Minnesota Beethoven Ninth:


*** I am really wowed by that Beethoven.  Vänskä adopts some tenets of the HIP movement (obviously without using a HIP ensemble) and comes up with a happy medium.  As just one example, in the last movement, the tympani strokes are very quick and clean--not quite "gunshots" but more crisp than most.

It's a very brisk performance, on the transparent side, and very beautifully played and recorded.  I like the soloists in the last movement, all of whom are new to me, who sing with lots of punch and vigor.  (Some people may not go for this.)  I must have about ten recordings of the Ninth, and this one will probably be somewhere near the top of the list, after exploring it awhile.

          --Bruce


Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: karlhenning on December 17, 2007, 08:33:22 AM
Happy Anniversary of Beethoven's Baptism!!!
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on January 06, 2008, 04:19:44 PM



100 classical albums you must hear (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/arts/2008/01/06/sv_classical.xm)

Bewildered by the ever-growing catalogue of classical music on CD? Let our music critic Michael Kennedy be your guide with his choice of 100 essential recordings

by Michael Kennedy, Telegraph.co.uk

***

BEETHOVEN

Symphony No 3 (Eroica); BBCSO; Barbirolli Society

An excellent example of Barbirolli's direct and honest way with the Beethoven symphonies. This studio recording followed a 1967 live performance which drew superlatives from the critics.

Symphonies Nos 5 and 7; Philharmonia Orch; EMI

Otto Klemperer's Beethoven cycles at the Festival Hall in the 1960s were crowd-drawing events and these performances, imbued with granite-like grandeur and energy, explain why.

Beethoven Symphony No 9 (Choral); Bavarian Radio SO; Philips

A perennial challenge to all its performers, especially the chorus, the Ninth is superbly performed under Sir Colin Davis, with soloists Helen Donath, Trudeliese Schmidt, Klaus König and Simon Estes.

Violin Concerto; Berlin PO; Dutton

Recorded in 1936 by Georg Kulenkampff and conducted by Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt, this was regarded as a classic from the start, although the style of playing is not today's.

Piano Concerto No 3; NBC Orch; Naxos Historical

The interest in this Toscanini performance is his choice of soloist, the English pianist Dame Myra Hess, who was popular in America and is in rapport with the fiery Italian.

Piano Concerto No 5 (Emperor); Staatskapelle Dresden; Philips

The Chilean pianist Claudio Arrau, a Beethoven specialist, gives a towering performance of this emperor of concertos, with Sir Colin Davis providing ideal support. From 1984.

Piano Trio in B flat (Archduke); EMI

Alfred Cortot, Jacques Thibaud and Pablo Casals in 1928 in an evergreen account of this wonderful trio deservedly included by EMI in its Great Recordings of the Century.

Piano sonatas; Philips

Several great pianists have recorded all 32, although ideally one needs more than one artist in this range. The last five masterpieces are wonderfully played on two discs by Mitsuko Uchida.

String Quartets; Harmonia Mundi

Same applies to these, but you must have the three Rasumovsky quartets, Opus 59, and I recommend immensely satisfying performances by the Tokyo String Quartet recorded two or three years ago.

Fidelio; Royal Opera House Orch; Testament

Otto Klemperer conducted this thrilling live performance at Covent Garden in 1961 with the unbeatable combination of Sena Jurinac and Jon Vickers as Leonore and Florestan





Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on January 07, 2008, 03:08:51 AM

(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11394_coverpic.jpg)

BEETHOVEN, Symphonies Nos. 1 & 6 "Pastoral"
Minnesota Orchestra / Osmo Vänskä
BIS- 1716(SACD)


(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/sp_art/p10s10.gif)
 
 Osmo Vänskä's Beethoven cycle with his own Minnesota Orchestra represents a triumph of basic musical values as much as keen interpretive insight. ***  once again Vänskä has turned in two outstanding performances. ***  These performances represent the difference between interpretations whose curiosity value rapidly wanes with each encounter, revealing a musically hollow core, and those--such as we find here--that have genuine staying-power and substance. They are permanently enjoyable.


--David Hurwitz  (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11394)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on January 07, 2008, 03:13:16 AM


(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11410_coverpic.jpg)

BEETHOVEN, Symphonies Nos. 4 & 7
Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen / Paavo Järvi


(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/sp_art/p10s10.gif)


This second disc from Paavo Järvi's complete Beethoven cycle is just as fine as the first (containing Symphonies 3 and 8 ). Once again the playing of the Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen is phenomenal. *** The outer movements of the Seventh Symphony have an almost elemental force, and while some listeners might prefer a stronger presence from the horns, the prominence of the wind and trumpet parts is very welcome, particularly in the finale's refreshingly un-opaque main theme. You can really hear the colorful mosaic of timbres that comprises the first subject.

--David Hurwitz  (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11410)
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on January 07, 2008, 03:31:14 AM
(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11394_coverpic.jpg)

BEETHOVEN, Symphonies Nos. 1 & 6 "Pastoral"
Minnesota Orchestra / Osmo Vänskä
BIS- 1716(SACD)


(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/sp_art/p10s10.gif)
 
 Osmo Vänskä's Beethoven cycle with his own Minnesota Orchestra represents a triumph of basic musical values as much as keen interpretive insight. ***  once again Vänskä has turned in two outstanding performances. ***  These performances represent the difference between interpretations whose curiosity value rapidly wanes with each encounter, revealing a musically hollow core, and those--such as we find here--that have genuine staying-power and substance. They are permanently enjoyable.


--David Hurwitz  (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11394)

I was particularly amused & annoyed by this comment by "Hurwitzer":

"So let's be clear. No period instrument group in existence can play this music as well as a superbly trained, regularly constituted major symphony orchestra such as we find here,..

What ??? The Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique (Gardiner), Tafelmusik (Weil), the Orchestra of the 18th Century (Brüggen) and the Academy of Ancient Music (Hogwood) are all clearly inferior to a "major" (?) symphony orchestra like the Minnesota Orchestra? LOL!  ;D

Q
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on January 07, 2008, 05:03:23 AM
Beethoven's Missa Solemnis (Bernstein)

Here are the beautiful Sanctus & Benedictus

Sanctus http://www.youtube.com/v/cVPXd1b-pxU
Benedictus Continued http://www.youtube.com/v/D4JSH7LLX6s

Moser-Schwarz-Kollo-Moll
Hilversum Radio Chorus
Concertgebouw Orchestra, Amsterdam
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: M forever on January 07, 2008, 06:34:41 PM
I was particularly amused & annoyed by this comment by "Hurwitzer":

"So let's be clear. No period instrument group in existence can play this music as well as a superbly trained, regularly constituted major symphony orchestra such as we find here,..

What ??? The Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique (Gardiner), Tafelmusik (Weil), the Orchestra of the 18th Century (Brüggen) and the Academy of Ancient Music (Hogwood) are all clearly inferior to a "major" (?) symphony orchestra like the Minnesota Orchestra? LOL!  ;D

Q

The annoyed part you totally deserve for even reading that crap. Hurwitz is an extremely bad reviewer, a hobby percussionist who has snapped up a few things here and there which make him look professional in the eyes of the uninformed. But he doesn't really know much about the things he reviews, he doesn't understand music making and performing traditions. The way this works is that he trumpets out "strong" opinions based on clichées, so superficially informed readers can understand these "strong" opinions and feel good about participating in that.They feel they "know" and "understand" a lot, too, and they can also have "strong" opinions. Plus he is embarrassing to read because everything he writes shows clear signs of an American cultural inferiority complex when it comes to European music culture and ensembles. For which there is no reason, but he totally has it.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Que on January 08, 2008, 12:12:30 AM
The annoyed part you totally deserve for even reading that crap.

I know, but it's quite funny at the same time. ;D  It does however brings the risk of automatically avoiding anything the Hurwitzer abundantly sprinkles his 10/10's over. I still visit Classictoday because of some other reviewers, like Jed Distler.

Q
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on January 08, 2008, 07:39:36 AM
You don't have to justify yourself! You are entitled to wasting your time in whatever ways please you. But yes, keep in mind, if Hurwitz gives 10/10, that doesn't mean it's bad either. It's just otally random nonsense. How fitting that "Witz" means "joke" in German - nomen est omen.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on January 08, 2008, 07:47:09 AM
I know, but it's quite funny at the same time. ;D  It does however brings the risk of automatically avoiding anything the Hurwitzer abundantly sprinkles his 10/10's over. I still visit Classictoday because of some other reviewers, like Jed Distler.

Q

Jed has certainly guided me to a number of great recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2008, 08:08:04 AM
Jed has certainly guided me to a number of great recordings.

And guided me to a great number of mediocre recordings. He's not a reviewer I trust. We have radically different taste apparently.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 08, 2008, 08:11:55 AM
And guided me to a great number of mediocre recordings. He's not a reviewer I trust. We have radically different taste apparently.

Sarge
He is actually not as clueless as Robert Levine, who is totally tone-deaf in my opinion.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: George on January 08, 2008, 08:19:44 AM
Jed has certainly guided me to a number of great recordings.

Three examples:

https://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=6783

https://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=3182

https://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=9625
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: M forever on January 08, 2008, 10:45:00 AM
We have radically different taste apparently.

Differences in taste don't matter. Nobody can separate that from his views, and "impersonal" musical criticism isn't interesting to read either, but a good reviewer can more or less "accurately" describe what he hears and put it into context. Especially when it comes to "classial" music, there is a lot of context, performance traditions, other performances of the same repertoire etcetc. Which is what they all appear to do. But especially Hurwitz can't keep his emotional over-reactions and silly biases under control. That's why he is a very bad reviewer. And I am not saying that because we have "different tastes". Some albums I recently enjoyed a lot and thin are very good got "10/10" or similar from him as well (e.g. Jansons - Rachmaninoff symphonies, Harnoncourt - Bruckner 9). But I just don't like the journalistic style, or lack thereof.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: BachQ on January 08, 2008, 02:33:52 PM
Differences in taste don't matter.

 :D
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2008, 02:50:10 PM
Differences in taste don't matter.

They do to me, in the way I meant in my earlier post: Whether or not I'll enjoy a recommended recording has very much to do with the critic's taste, far more than whether or not he understands the performing traditions of any particular orchestra. I've discovered after years of reading that Distler and I have radically different taste. What he considers great I often find underwhelming--not bad, just not worth the investment. So, yes, it does matter--not in the context of the review, which I can enjoy whether or not I agree with his recommendation, but in the decision to explore further, or forget, the item he reviewed.

Quote
Hurwitz can't keep his emotional over-reactions and silly biases under control. That's why he is a very bad reviewer

His biases, silly or not, are there for everyone to see. He's emotionally open, like many Americans, and I, maybe because I'm an American too, appreciate that. He's not wishy-washy--I also appreciate that. When I read a critic, I want an opinion. A strong opinion and a consistent opinion. I get that from Hurwitz. It's then up to me to decide whether he's right or wrong about any one recording. I know when to take him with a grain of salt: I don't read him to find out which HIP recording to buy. I don't read him for insight into Barbirolli and Horenstein  :D

Quote
I just don't like the journalistic style

Your perogative, of course.

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on January 08, 2008, 03:04:18 PM
First, we have the music performance.
Next, we have the person who reviews the music.
Then, we have the person who reviews the reviewer of the music.
Then, we have the person who reviews the reviewer of the reviewer of the music.
Then .........
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Don on January 08, 2008, 03:06:48 PM

His biases, silly or not, are there for everyone to see. He's emotionally open, like many Americans, and I, maybe because I'm an American too, appreciate that. He's not wishy-washy--I also appreciate that. When I read a critic, I want an opinion. A strong opinion and a consistent opinion. I get that from Hurwitz. It's then up to me to decide whether he's right or wrong about any one recording. I know when to take him with a grain of salt: I don't read him to find out which HIP recording to buy. I don't read him for insight into Barbirolli and Horenstein  :D

Sarge

Hurwitz seems to have quite a hatred for Barbirolli and Horenstein.  It would be best if he didn't do reviews of their recordings.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2008, 03:16:03 PM
Hurwitz seems to have quite a hatred for Barbirolli and Horenstein.  It would be best if he didn't do reviews of their recordings.

I think so too. The negative things he points out are usually obvious and, quite simply, don't matter to anyone who appreciates these two conductors. Still, I suppose the reviews do serve at least one purpose: they give the newbie fair warning.

Sarge
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: M forever on January 08, 2008, 07:21:06 PM
I've discovered after years of reading that Distler and I have radically different taste.

You have been reading that crap for years and it took you that long to figure that out?

He's emotionally open, like many Americans

That's pretty funny, Sarge! Thanks for the laugh!

When I read a critic, I want an opinion. A strong opinion and a consistent opinion. I get that from Hurwitz.

No, you don't. You don't get a *strong* opinion from him. You get a *strongly* voiced one, and you are old enough to see there is a big difference between the two. And it's not consistent either. It's pretty random, since it's not based on solid knowledge and good critical appreciation.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Bistro
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 09, 2008, 04:47:14 AM
No, you don't. You don't get a *strong* opinion from him. You get a *strongly* voiced one, and you are old enough to see there is a big difference between the two. And it's not consistent either. It's pretty random, since it's not based on solid knowledge and good critical appreciation.

How would you know?  ??? Help me out here, M. You claim you don't read him (and that anyone who does is, at best, wasting his time, at worst, an idiot). So how do you know he's not consistent?  ;D

What amuses me is how much you resemble Hurwitz. I guess that's why I like reading you.  :D

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MishaK on January 09, 2008, 08:45:52 AM
How fitting that "Witz" means "joke" in German - nomen est omen.

...and that Hur' means... never mind.  >:D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on January 09, 2008, 09:24:20 AM
...and that Hur' means... never mind.  >:D

That means "whore". Strange, that never occurred to me befoe... :o


How would you know?  ??? Help me out here, M. You claim you don't read him (and that anyone who does is, at best, wasting his time, at worst, an idiot). So how do you know he's not consistent?  ;D

Sure I have read some of his reviews. That should be pretty obvious. Otherwise I wouldn't have that opinion about them. I even check classicstoday once in a while because I like to read interesting and stimulating - and provocative - reviews, and just because most of which I have read so far were nonsense - and not really provocative either, I don't mean provocative in the sense of insulting, but in the sense of having some uncommon views, but views which are uncommon because they are based on more reflection than common views, but that doesn't apply to the random emotional nonsense he writes -, I think there might still be some interesting ones now and then, or some interesting points among all the nonsense. But the signal-to-noise ratio is just too high.

Is that a waste of time? Dunno, depends on your attitude towards that. If you are entertained by it, I don't think it is a waste of time. Does that make the reader an idiot? Not necessarily, only if the reader picks up the nonsense.

What amuses me is how much you resemble Hurwitz. I guess that's why I like reading you.  :D

We really don't have much in common. I have the background he pretends to have. I don't write reviews, my posts here are just casual chit chat, they don't pose as reviews. Sometimes I do write little review-like paragraphs, and when I do, these are much better than anything he can write.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2008, 06:12:20 AM
Sure I have read some of his reviews. That should be pretty obvious....Is that a waste of time? Dunno, depends on your attitude towards that. If you are entertained by it, I don't think it is a waste of time. Does that make the reader an idiot? Not necessarily, only if the reader picks up the nonsense.

Thank you, M. That was a more reasoned and rational post than your first...

Quote
The annoyed part you totally deserve for even reading that crap. Hurwitz is an extremely bad reviewer, a hobby percussionist who has snapped up a few things here and there which make him look professional in the eyes of the uninformed. But he doesn't really know much about the things he reviews, he doesn't understand music making and performing traditions.

...which I thought was utter, emotional, nonsense, and still do. Perhaps in future you should refrain from criticizing people who read Hurwitz since you read him too.

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on January 10, 2008, 10:28:06 AM
Anybody can read and criticize what they like. We are all "entitled" to our opinions, remember?  ;)

When you are saying that, you are directly contradicting what you said yourself about the first part being "more reasoned and rational".

About the second part, that is neither emotional nor nonsense. A lot of people can't judge that because they have neither studied music nor played in good ensembles themselves, but I have, so I can have a very precise opinion about that. I know exactly what certain performing and playing traditions are since I grew up and studied them right in the dead center of many of those. He hasn't and it shows that he has no "deeper" background than playing percussion as a hobby in some American community orchestra. Which is cool, that's what I do as a hobby now myself. But he often pontificates about performing traditions he obviously doesn't understand, what orchestras "have no business" playing this or that repertoire and which do, and that is all total uninformed nonsense which, like I said earlier, I find embarassing to read because they reflect an unnecessary cultural inferiority complex.

And that doesn't have anything to do at all with differing opinions. Hurwitz often says that the Staatskapelle Dresden is Germany's "true top orchestra" - and I actually happen to agree. But that doesn't "justify" his totally over the top nonsense in other areas.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 10, 2008, 05:27:39 PM
But he often pontificates about performing traditions he obviously doesn't understand,
Where would that be? You have a link for that. I find that DH has strong opinions, but he seldom if ever makes gross generalizations.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MishaK on January 11, 2008, 08:53:57 AM
Where would that be? You have a link for that. I find that DH has strong opinions, but he seldom if ever makes gross generalizations.

Actually, in his Mahler reviews he usually blabs on about the "Mahler sound" or this or that Mahler "tradition" or the absence thereof in one or another orchestra. He is often at his most jaded and closed minded when reviewing Mahler for some reason.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on January 11, 2008, 06:43:52 PM
Actually, in his Mahler reviews he usually blabs on about the "Mahler sound" or this or that Mahler "tradition" or the absence thereof in one or another orchestra. He is often at his most jaded and closed minded when reviewing Mahler for some reason.

I think the reason fo that is that (IMO totally unnecessary) cultural inferiority complex I mentioned earlier. The fact that Mahler was a composer whose music did not enter the "mainstream" repertoire very quickly at all and that it took a while for the reception and interpretation of his music to happen on a larger scale, the fact that Mahler was in New York for a little while  and the myth Bernstein cultivated that he went to Vienna and "taught" them to play his music leads some people in America to believe that since Mahler's music was "rejected" in central Europe, it can be "claimed" like something that doesn't hve any connection with the cultural background it came from and that just floats around. So people like Hurwitz can now have their "own" classical music, too.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on January 14, 2008, 04:59:27 AM
Release Date: 01/08/2008

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/101/1012608.jpg)

LvB "Ghost" Trio; Trio no. 3; Hummel Trio for Piano and Strings in G major, Op. 65
Daniel Sepec (Violin), Andreas Staier (Fortepiano), Jean-Guihen Queyras (Cello)

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on January 14, 2008, 09:39:02 PM
(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/1907_coverpic.jpg)

BEETHOVEN: THE COMPLETE SYMPHONIES VOL. III
Symphony No. 7 in A major; Symphony No. 8 in F major; Symphony No. 9 in D minor “Choral”
Ingeborg Wenglor (soprano); Annelies Burmeister (contralto); Martin Ritzmann (tenor); Rolf Kuhne (bass)
Czech Philharmonic Orchestra / Paul Kletzki


(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/sp_art/p10s8.gif)



 
[T]here is a special exalted sense in these [1960's] recordings that is rarely found today. Foremost, it is clear that Kletzki has an unwavering love for these scores, evident in his continued effort to have us hear everything in them. There's a lot more going on in this music than is usually revealed. The string runs after each statement of the main theme in Symphony No. 7's finale are just one example. In the Eighth's first movement, Kletzki points up the debt owed to Beethoven by today's jazz and rock musicians: the original funky bass line. He also shows how Beethoven's antiphonal effects in the Ninth's first movement lead right to the manuscripts of Anton Bruckner.

Kletzki ... injects life-giving energy into the music, not just horizontally (though he does employ the same rubato in the Seventh's finale that Leonard Bernstein did in his later Vienna Philharmonic recording), but with a strong sonic foundation that conveys the sense of purpose that makes his interpretations so satisfying. This is true nowhere more than in the Ninth's finale, which is full of grandeur yet without any of today's "authentic" tempos. Kletzki recognizes that the vocal element is just as important, if not more important, than the orchestral. Rolf Kuhne's "O Freunde" rivets our attention and literally sweeps away all that has gone before. Tenor Martin Ritzmann's heroic singing shames most of today's interpreters of the part.

...The Czech Philharmonic Chorus ... sings with a fervency that gives truth to Schiller's poem, and despite their massive forces, the singers make every syllable distinctly audible. Audible too is the marvelous Czech Philharmonic Orchestra, performing with miraculous clarity and robustness here and in the other two symphonies. The sound on these vintage Supraphon recordings is beautifully balanced with plenty of dynamic range, though the huge tuttis in the finale do suffer from some congestion. This release caps a terrific series. Don't miss it.


--Victor Carr
 (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=1907)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 15, 2008, 06:43:38 PM
(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/1907_coverpic.jpg)

BEETHOVEN: THE COMPLETE SYMPHONIES VOL. III
Symphony No. 7 in A major; Symphony No. 8 in F major; Symphony No. 9 in D minor “Choral”
Ingeborg Wenglor (soprano); Annelies Burmeister (contralto); Martin Ritzmann (tenor); Rolf Kuhne (bass)
Czech Philharmonic Orchestra / Paul Kletzki


Beautiful writeup...agree with every word.




Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on January 16, 2008, 06:12:29 AM
Beautiful writeup...agree with every word.

I especially agree with the comments about "injecting life-giving energy into the music....". 

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 16, 2008, 08:37:57 PM
I especially agree with the comments about "injecting life-giving energy into the music....". 


Yes, very well put...



Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on January 16, 2008, 09:03:58 PM
Yes, very well put...

Likewise, donwyn, your statement is very well put ......... 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 16, 2008, 09:56:24 PM
Likewise, donwyn, your statement is very well put ......... 

(http://www.serotta.com/forum/images/smilies/beer2.gif)




Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on January 19, 2008, 11:25:54 AM
From Wall Street Journal

Beethoven's Summation
His Ninth Symphony crystallizes all he learned and lived

By STUART ISACOFF
January 19, 2008; Page W14

In 1824, Ludwig van Beethoven, 53, deaf, cantankerous and increasingly world weary, bared his soul in a work so stunning in originality, scale and emotional power that virtually every great composer who followed has lived under its shadow. Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, with its final movement for chorus, four vocal soloists and orchestra set to Friedrich Schiller's poem "Ode to Joy," left so great an impact on the classical music world that a superstition arose in its wake. "It seems that the ninth is a limit," stated Arnold Schoenberg, mulling over the fortunes of Schubert, Bruckner, Mahler and other symphonists who never managed to complete a 10th symphony. "He who wants to go beyond it must pass away."

Beethoven's last symphony seemed to sum up everything the composer had learned and lived. A critic of his day described the music as filled with "never-imagined magical secrets." The piece has everything: Universes seem to collide; intricate textures give way to wild rhythmic contractions -- the birth pangs of a new musical art. There are long, exquisite stretches of heavenly repose, passages of punctilious counterpoint, and moments of earthy humor. There is even a Turkish band thrown in for good measure. And in the end, Beethoven delivers Schiller's ardent plea for universal brotherhood.

 
The conception is as modern and relevant today as it was nearly 200 years ago. Little wonder this was the work Leonard Bernstein chose to perform in the former East Berlin Schauspielhaus on Christmas Day, 1989, to celebrate the fall of the Berlin Wall, substituting the word "Freiheit" (freedom) for Schiller's "Freude" (joy). (The two words were as connected for Beethoven and Schiller as for Bernstein.) Earlier that same year, student protesters in Beijing's Tiananmen Square blared Beethoven's music over their loudspeakers as they stood up to armed Chinese troops.

The symphony's popularity has, if anything, grown over time. Last summer, I heard a performance at the Hollywood Bowl with Michael Tilson Thomas conducting the Los Angeles Philharmonic and nearly 13,000 people were in attendance; the previous fall in Turin, Italy, I witnessed the La Scala chorus and orchestra performing it in an ice-hockey stadium that had been built for the Olympics. There, 10,000 men, women and children sat motionless at the conclusion of the performance, then stayed long into the night to cheer the orchestra members and singers.

And yet, this music is not especially easy to comprehend. Composer Hector Berlioz admitted that in some ways it remained unfathomable to him. Nevertheless, he asserted, if in composing it Beethoven broke some musical laws, as some contended, "So much the worse for the law!"

These were new forms, new visions of what music could do and say. The composer had begun early in his career to construct his compositions out of small musical cells, which grew organically, as if governed by a kind of musical DNA. Now, toward the end of his life, he shattered the model, allowing elements of his structures to break free and move in unorthodox ways, blurring distinctions between endings and beginnings, forming strange convergences and unconventional resolutions. The music unfolds as a psychological drama in which themes are declared, wrestle with each other and, in the final movement, strive to re-emerge -- only to become subsumed in the flame of heavenly bliss.

There are parallels here with Schiller's poem, and with the poet's philosophy of art. Schiller later called his "Ode to Joy" "entirely flawed." Nevertheless, Beethoven, who had some trepidation about adding singers to his symphonic work (a radical move), had begun trying to set the poem to music more than 32 years earlier. He was clearly attracted to its sentiments, which were fully outlined by Schiller in a work called "On the Aesthetic Education of Man" (1795): Art leads man, in stages, from primitive sensuality to ultimate perfection -- to a state of freedom and joy rooted in morality. The process involves a series of oppositions and syntheses -- an antagonism of forces that results first in disintegration, and then in the creation of a new, joyful wholeness. This could almost serve as an outline for Beethoven's method.

Naturally, the Ninth Symphony has its critics, and chief among them is a new breed of musicologist who sees the organizing principle of Western art music -- its reliance on the gravitational pull of tonal centers, and the artful control of musical tension and resolution -- as a direct reflection of the male libido and its primal urge toward domination. One of the leading figures of this school of thought, Susan McClary, found in the opening movement of Beethoven's masterpiece the "murderous rage of a rapist incapable of attaining release" (in her article "Getting Down Off the Beanstalk"; she subsequently toned down the language for a reprint in a published collection, but the sentiments remained the same). In the last century, thinkers like Max Weber and Theodore Adorno, who set out this sociological approach to musical analysis, quickly reached an intellectual dead end. But it thrives today on many college campuses, where scholarly rigor often takes a back seat to freakish conjecture -- especially when this serves the ideological goal of reducing great works to the mere tinkerings of "dead white men." (The irony, of course, is that cultures producing music free of those tonal principles -- the presumptive ideal -- generally turn out to be the most historically oppressive to women.) Beethoven will survive.

The genesis of the Ninth Symphony was a request made to the composer in 1822 by the London Philharmonic Society for a new work. Two years later, when word leaked out that Beethoven was considering premiering it in Berlin, a petition emerged in his hometown of Vienna, signed by some of the city's most distinguished musicians and patrons, pleading with him to reconsider because only Austria "may claim him as its own." Beethoven relented. But it's safe to say that from Berlin to Beijing, Turin to Los Angeles, when we hear this remarkable music today -- and perhaps dream a little, with Schiller, of a time when the spirit of joy "reunites all that custom has rudely divided" -- we can each claim him as our own.

Mr. Isacoff is the author of "Temperament: How Music Became a Battleground for the Great Minds of Western Civilization" and editor of Piano Today magazine.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on January 19, 2008, 05:25:40 PM
Opus 132 went beyond the 9th. Way beyond it. I'd daresay 131 as well. As far as being able to convey to another some of the most complex, profound feelings ...I'm not sure any music since matches those two.

Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on February 08, 2008, 02:25:50 PM

Beethoven Piano Trio in D The Ghost (2d movement)

2d mvt pt 1 http://www.youtube.com/v/d0iUipwyWrU

2d mvt pt 2 http://www.youtube.com/v/a5NnQeZXVF0

Cello: Jacqueline de Pré
Violin: Pinchas Zuckerman
Piano: Daniel Barenboim
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Rod Corkin on February 08, 2008, 02:55:48 PM
Opus 132 went beyond the 9th. Way beyond it. I'd daresay 131 as well. As far as being able to convey to another some of the most complex, profound feelings ...I'm not sure any music since matches those two.

Just my opinion.

With his symphonic music Beethoven's 'message' was always more accessible and universal relative to his chamber music. This was a deliberate strategy as far as I am concerned, it couldn't have been any other way. You can't be so experimental with a public piece like a symphony, so the goals seeked through composing a symphony are somewhat different to a quartet like Op132. But there are things you can get from the ninth that you can't get from a quartet. For what it's worth in such a forum of elevated souls such as this, Beethoven thought Op131 was his greatest.  0:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on February 08, 2008, 03:05:30 PM
With his symphonic music Beethoven's 'message' was always more accessible and universal relative to his chamber music. This was a deliberate strategy as far as I am concerned, it couldn't have been any other way. You can't be so experimental with a public piece like a symphony, so the goals seeked through composing a symphony are somewhat different to a quartet like Op132. But there are things you can get from the ninth that you can't get from a quartet. For what it's worth in such a forum of elevated souls such as this, Beethoven thought Op131 was his greatest.  0:)



Great post, Rod.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on February 08, 2008, 09:54:48 PM
With his symphonic music Beethoven's 'message' was always more accessible and universal relative to his chamber music. This was a deliberate strategy as far as I am concerned, it couldn't have been any other way. You can't be so experimental with a public piece like a symphony, so the goals seeked through composing a symphony are somewhat different to a quartet like Op132. But there are things you can get from the ninth that you can't get from a quartet. For what it's worth in such a forum of elevated souls such as this, Beethoven thought Op131 was his greatest.  0:)

Certainly the greatest opening movement at least.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Great Gable on February 09, 2008, 03:10:29 AM
For those of you who, like me, who had been looking for Furtwangler's Lucerne 1954 9th, this is now available...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000001OFV

I don't know what the Tahra edition was like but this is absolutely fine, sound wise.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Rod Corkin on February 09, 2008, 10:28:43 AM


Great post, Rod.

Wow that's the first time I've read that here.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Rod Corkin on February 09, 2008, 10:36:06 AM
Certainly the greatest opening movement at least.  :)

The finale is apparently too difficult for the stupid academy boys to direct. And the singers can't sing it either for the most part. Maybe in 100 years. But I'd be most interested to know what you would say is the best 'closing movement'?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on February 09, 2008, 10:53:54 AM
The finale is apparently too difficult for the stupid academy boys to direct. And the singers can't sing it either for the most part. Maybe in 100 years. But I'd be most interested to know what you would say is the best 'closing movement'?

Could you first explain what you mean about the singers? We were discussing the SQs.  ???
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on February 09, 2008, 10:55:16 AM
Could you first explain what you mean about the singers? We were discussing the SQs.  ???




I was thrown on that one as well...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: knight66 on February 10, 2008, 12:39:43 AM
With his symphonic music Beethoven's 'message' was always more accessible and universal relative to his chamber music. This was a deliberate strategy as far as I am concerned, it couldn't have been any other way. You can't be so experimental with a public piece like a symphony, so the goals seeked through composing a symphony are somewhat different to a quartet like Op132. But there are things you can get from the ninth that you can't get from a quartet. For what it's worth in such a forum of elevated souls such as this, Beethoven thought Op131 was his greatest.  0:)

Did Beethoven explicitly nail the idea he could not be as experimental with the symphony as he could be in chamber music?

Surely it depends what the composer wants to experiment with. I don't accept the premise that composers 'can't' be as experimental in the symphony. Mahler's 8th was experimental. Messiaen's Turangalîla Symphony was experimental. Neither would have been able to compress what you hear in those two symphonies into chamber pieces and preserve those forms or textures, sonorities or layers of sound. It is certainly more risky and expensive for composers to experiment with a full scale symphony; but wrong to suggest it cannot, or has not, been done.

It also may depend on whether a composer as been commissioned and the terms of the commission.

I am not sure that is it sustainable even to claim that chamber music is more personal. (I know that point was not actually discussed.) Tempting, but really it might be more intimate rather; and while some composers pour themselves more personally into a work for small forces, others did not....again, it depends on the needs of the artist to express what they need to, when they need to.

Mike
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on February 10, 2008, 01:43:11 AM
Wow that's the first time I've read that here.

Yes, but it doesn't mean much because Mr Haffner is always nice to everybody (even me!!!). I guess that makes him a good person but it doesn't change the fact that you are still an egghead who is talking about stuf he doesn't have the slightest clue about.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on February 10, 2008, 09:54:22 AM
Philistines will never dull Beethoven
By Michael Henderson
Last Updated: 12:01am GMT Feb 09, 2008

(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/graphics/2008/02/09/do0902.jpg)
 
Something remarkable is going on at the Royal Festival Hall, where Daniel Barenboim, the master pianist, has reached the halfway point of his cycle of the Beethoven sonatas: 16 gone, 16 to go. The journey resumes tonight, and the fact that tickets for all eight concerts have gone won't stop people trying to grab a return.
 
A journey it is, in the truest musical sense of "always travelling, never arriving". Barenboim, who is 66 this year, has played these sonatas for almost half a century, and never tires of them, for the same reason that his listeners cannot tire of them. Beethoven is the most challenging of composers, and possibly the most protean spirit in the history of human endeavour. To tire of his music is to renounce life itself.

It diminishes Barenboim to call him merely a pianist. He is also a celebrated conductor in the concert hall and opera house, and an educator of world renown who has brought together young Israelis and Palestinians in the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, a project he established nine years ago with the late Edward Said, that has done so much to build bridges. Last month, uniquely for an Israeli, he was granted Palestinian citizenship.

So it is Danny the man, as well as Barenboim the artist, that music lovers are responding to in these concerts. Sir Neville Cardus wrote of the young Barenboim, the schoolboy who made such an impression on Furtwängler, that he was "probably the most gifted musician of his years since Busoni", and those gifts, the fruits of abundance, have ripened with the decades.

With these Beethoven recitals, therefore, we are honouring one of the most extraordinary men of our time for a life's devotion to music, and very moving it is, too. British audiences do not offer many standing ovations, a detachment that does them credit, yet each night during this cycle the house has risen as one. The performance of the Appassionata on Wednesday, when Barenboim was almost reckless in his execution of the final presto, prompted a spontaneous roar that could have been heard on the other side of the Thames. These are events we shall remember for a lifetime.

***

Audiences at the Festival Hall are currently bathed in a celestial light, the light of Beethoven, mediated through the head, heart and fingers of a great musician. With joy and gratitude, we resume the journey
tonight.
 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Rod Corkin on February 10, 2008, 10:13:45 AM
Did Beethoven explicitly nail the idea he could not be as experimental with the symphony as he could be in chamber music?

Surely it depends what the composer wants to experiment with. I don't accept the premise that composers 'can't' be as experimental in the symphony. Mahler's 8th was experimental. Messiaen's Turangalîla Symphony was experimental. Neither would have been able to compress what you hear in those two symphonies into chamber pieces and preserve those forms or textures, sonorities or layers of sound. It is certainly more risky and expensive for composers to experiment with a full scale symphony; but wrong to suggest it cannot, or has not, been done.

It also may depend on whether a composer as been commissioned and the terms of the commission.

I am not sure that is it sustainable even to claim that chamber music is more personal. (I know that point was not actually discussed.) Tempting, but really it might be more intimate rather; and while some composers pour themselves more personally into a work for small forces, others did not....again, it depends on the needs of the artist to express what they need to, when they need to.

Mike


Well of course compared to other symphonic composers of the time even Beethoven's symphonies were quite radical in some respects. We all know that nincompoop CMvWeber cited the 7th as evidence of Beethoven's entry ticket to the mad-house. And the choral finale of the 9th is seen as a step too far by many even today. So it is a relative position. I would simply say Beethoven allowed himself certain 'liberties' with chamber music that he didn't with the symphony, because chamber music is a more flexible media. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I take the symphonic 'liberties' taken by the Romantics as good evidence that Beethoven was correct, he was and remains the benchmark for symphonic music.  0:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: knight66 on February 10, 2008, 10:52:22 AM
Fine, thanks....we are not far apart over the issue then.

Mike
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on February 12, 2008, 07:23:50 AM
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/92/929914.jpg)

Release Date: 07/26/2007
Label:  Deutsche Grammophon   Catalog #: 463626   Spars Code: n/a 
Performer:  Irmgard Seefried,  Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau,  Ernst Haefliger,  Maureen Forrester
Conductor:  Ferenc Fricsay
Orchestra/Ensemble:  Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra,  St. Hedwig's Cathedral Choir



This ...remains among the best [LvB Ninths] ever recorded. *** Perhaps what governs this performance more than any other single quality is rhythm: a wholly natural, impulsive, life-affirming forward momentum that makes the first two movements breathtakingly exciting, endows the very slow (18 minutes) Adagio with an unforgettably timeless grace, and caries the choral finale forward on an irresistible wave of increasing joyousness. A fine quartet of soloists, enthusiastic chorus, gorgeously expansive recorded sound (superbly remastered), and wonderful playing by the Berlin Philharmonic (by no means a consistently exceptional ensemble in 1958), set the seal on a performance that should never have been permitted to leave the active catalog. Thank God it's back. Terrific Egmont Overture too. Enjoy while you can!

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=57870)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Ephemerid on February 12, 2008, 01:19:41 PM
I tend to prefer the quartets to the symphonies as well-- not that the symphonies are not good!  But there's something going on in those late quartets that I think goes far beyond the symphonies-- and far beyond "classicism" or "romanticism."
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on February 12, 2008, 01:38:21 PM
From Wall Street Journal
One of the leading figures of this school of thought, Susan McClary, found in the opening movement of Beethoven's masterpiece the "murderous rage of a rapist incapable of attaining release" (in her article "Getting Down Off the Beanstalk"; she subsequently toned down the language for a reprint in a published collection, but the sentiments remained the same). In the last century, thinkers like Max Weber and Theodore Adorno, who set out this sociological approach to musical analysis, quickly reached an intellectual dead end.

I don't think this gentleman has ever read either Max Weber or Th.W. Adorno. Adorno saw history and society impinging in a very profound way on musical processes. But he was never so crass and vulgar as to equate Beethoven's dynamism with rape. His mind was too subtle for that.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on February 14, 2008, 03:59:50 PM
From NEW YORK TIMES

(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/02/14/arts/Curtisspan.jpg)

February 14, 2008
Music Review
Why, Beethoven, You’ve Gone Mahlerian
By BERNARD HOLLAND


Gustav Mahler’s orchestral transcription of Beethoven’s Opus 95 String Quartet suggests that inside every thin man is a fat one trying to get out. Such urges for physical change are usually practical ones; artistic advantage tends to be accidental.

Mahler, as conductor of a big orchestra, wanted the opportunity to have an admired chamber piece for himself. The Curtis Institute of Music in Philadelphia, which has been making this particular quartet and its enlargement a classroom preoccupation, sent its Curtis Symphony Orchestra to Carnegie Hall on Tuesday night to show what it has been learning. The added attraction was having Alan Gilbert, the New York Philharmonic’s music-director-to-be, as conductor.

Although the notes stay the same, avoirdupois has a major effect on most music. The results can be instructive, sometimes helpful and sometimes not. For rehearsal purposes Stravinsky reduced his “Sacre du Printemps” for two pianists, draining away its color and heft but providing a clarifying X-ray view. Dvorak orchestrated his piano four-hand “Slavonic Dances” and did it well.

The art of transcription’s biggest success story might be Haydn’s “Seven Last Words of Christ.” Using the common marketing strategy of the day, Haydn reduced his orchestra original to a string quartet, providing manageable and salable home entertainment for amateur players. The intimacy discovered may be more compelling than in either the orchestral version or the choral adaptation he also made.

As played by the dazzling young Curtis musicians, Beethoven-Mahler had the disadvantage of sounding too beautiful. Different string sections resonated and echoed with unintended grandness. Given the exceptional ability of the ensemble (all strings for this piece) to articulate busy detail, this was still powerful Beethoven but of a different sort. Missing was the grit of a single instrument on a part, the sweat emanating from four players hard at work. This is tough, wiry music. Overeating does it no good.

Beethoven’s jarring harmonic subtleties and changes of pace survived. A superior conductor’s knowledge of balance and emphasis, and his skill at conveying that knowledge, made the difference. Mr. Gilbert does not cut a glamorous, charismatic figure, but I hope the Philharmonic will buy into his music making.




Felder Completes Composer Trilogy with 'Beethoven' at Geffen
Back to the Article
by BWW News Desk

On the heels of the acclaimed productions of George Gershwin Alone and Monsieur Chopin, the Geffen Playhouse announces the highly anticipated culmination of Hershey Felder's Composer Trilogy, Beethoven, As I Knew Him, to kick off the theater's 2008-09 season.  In Beethoven, As I Knew Him, award winning performer Hershey Felder brings the character of Ludwig van Beethoven to life through the eyes of Beethoven's last surviving friend, as well as through the eternal sounds of the maestro's greatest musical works. Based on a true story, Beethoven, As I Knew Him completes Hershey Felder's musical trilogy entitled The Composer Sonata.

Felder, now world-famous for his lauded portrayals of George Gershwin, Fryderyk Chopin and Beethoven, returns to the Geffen after his nearly sold-out run of George Gershwin Alone and Monsieur Chopin last summer.  The productions received twelve LA Ovation Award nominations and won four awards, including Best Musical and Best Lead Actor in a Musical.  The Geffen Playhouse also welcomes back award winning director Joel Zwick (My Big Fat Greek Wedding).

Beethoven, As I Knew Him features music by Beethoven with text by Felder. The creative team includes Francois-Pierre Couture (sets), Richard Norwood (lighting), Erik Carstensen (sound).
(http://broadwayworld.com/viewcolumn.cfm?colid=25175)

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on February 14, 2008, 04:05:09 PM
From NEW YORK TIMES

(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/02/12/arts/curtisspan.jpg)

February 12, 2008
What’s in a Beethoven Quartet? A Full Curriculum
By DANIEL J. WAKIN
PHILADELPHIA — It is Distillate of Beethoven: 21 minutes of sharply compressed music that shows him in all his violent, tragic, angry, plaintive, contemplative guises. For four months it has haunted the halls of the Curtis Institute of Music, the elite conservatory here.

In an unusual educational experiment Curtis has established Beethoven’s String Quartet No. 11 in F minor (Op. 95) as the touchstone of the academic year for its 160 students. Imagine a year of medical school revolving around the liver, or a car repair course centered on the Chrysler LeBaron.

A highlight of the Opus 95 Project, as it is called, is a performance of Mahler’s orchestral transcription of the quartet by the Curtis Symphony Orchestra at Carnegie Hall on Tuesday evening. Alan Gilbert, a Curtis alumnus who is to become music director of the New York Philharmonic in 2009, will conduct. The program also includes Nielsen’s Symphony No. 3 and Barber’s “School for Scandal” Overture.

Back in the wood-paneled rooms of Curtis, a cozy hothouse of talent with oil paintings, creaky stairs and free tuition, Opus 95 is everywhere you look.

Each violinist, violist and cellist has worked on the piece in a quartet with coaches; literature courses cover the Beethoven letters that mention it; the music history survey course required of first-year students will devote classes to it this week; the advanced music theory course picked apart its structure.

Bruce Adolphe, the composer and lecturer, gave a talk analyzing the work as a musical example of Tourette’s syndrome. Top string players performed Opus 95 for the public in December.

The attention devoted to the piece contrasts with what Beethoven himself wrote in a letter: that it was “written for a small circle of connoisseurs and is never to be performed in public.” In this case make it a large circle of connoisseurs.

“It’s turned out to be an incredible educational experience for the kids,” said Roberto Díaz, the president of Curtis. “There’s a common thread running through everything that they’re thinking about. They’re learning about how the world that this piece was created in affected the creation of the piece.”

The germ of the idea came from Mr. Díaz, a former principal violist of the Philadelphia Orchestra who is in his second year at Curtis. One of his favorite recordings, he said, is a Leonard Bernstein performance of two late Beethoven quartets with the Vienna Philharmonic. The program notes mentioned that Bernstein had the string players prepare by playing the chamber music version, Mr. Díaz said.

“One day I was listening to this recording, and I thought this would be so incredible for the kids at school to be able to do something like this,” he said. He approached Mr. Gilbert, who was scheduled to conduct the Curtis orchestra this year, with the idea. Mr. Gilbert suggested the Mahler transcription of Opus 95, a work he had met as a violinist with a string orchestra in younger days. Mr. Díaz took him up on it.

Written in 1810, the work is considered a culmination of Beethoven’s second period and looks forward to the late quartets “in its dominant qualities of conciseness, directness and instant confrontation of contrast,” the musicologist Joseph Kerman wrote in “The Beethoven Quartets.”

It is called the “Quartetto Serioso,” a rare instance in which Beethoven himself bestowed a subtitle. “The F minor Quartet is not a pretty piece, but it is terribly strong — and perhaps rather terrible,” Mr. Kerman wrote. “Everything unessential falls victim, leaving a residue of extreme concentration, in dangerously high tension. But strength, not strain, is the commanding impression.”

The key, F minor, is that of the “Appassionata” Piano Sonata, the storm scene in the Sixth Symphony and the “Egmont” Overture, Lewis Lockwood points out in his biography “Beethoven.”

At Curtis one day last week, the work was on view at different angles. In the morning in Jeanne Minahan McGinn’s language and literature class, Benjamin Beilman, a violinist, delivered an oral report on the quartet. “Obviously this is very typical of Beethoven,” he said. “He switches character very, very rapidly.” Mr. Beilman heard Beethoven’s frustration at growing deaf in the quartet’s angry moments. He suggested that the mood swings of the piece supported a theory that Beethoven was bipolar.

In the afternoon Mr. Gilbert led a coaching session on the quartet for the principals of the orchestra string sections: Sylvia Kim, the concertmistress; Quan Yuan, the principal second violinist; Philip Kramp, the principal violist; and Abraham Feder, the principal cellist.

Mr. Gilbert drilled them on the gesture needed to start the piece, on the lengths of notes ending phrases, on rhythmic inflections of the opening bars. The opening is “explosive, defiant, like ‘me against the world,’ ” he said.

“It sounds a little uptight the way you’re playing it,” he added.

The second movement opens with a lone descending cello scale. Mr. Gilbert told Mr. Feder to “feel that delicious twinge of pain.”

Several hours later Mr. Gilbert was in front of the string orchestra, rehearsing the large-scale version, which Mahler transcribed with few changes. The contrast was fascinating: from the terse, internal dialogue of the quartet to the lush and powerful communal expression of the orchestra version. Mr. Gilbert struggled to have the orchestra react quickly to his gestures, to infuse their lines with character.

In an interview later he compared the quartet version to a sports car and the orchestra version to a truck. “But I would like the orchestra to function like a sports car,” he said. In both versions of the piece, he said he wanted the players to have a “highly developed point of view about the music.”

Mr. Díaz said the “jury is still out” on the ultimate success of the project but suggested that the idea might be repeated with other works.

Not all the students were thrilled with the Opus 95 Project. Several said they did not have much to do with it: wind players, not surprisingly.

“The idea of a schoolwide, one-piece project is really cool,” said Matthew McDonald, a bassoonist. “I just think we could have been more involved directly.”

The project also took a little gentle ribbing. At the Curtis holiday party, where the students traditionally put on humorous skits, Mr. McDonald and a fellow student wrote a number about a contrabassoonist struggling through an audition.

The music? Opus 95.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MishaK on February 14, 2008, 04:07:29 PM
From NEW YORK TIMES

...

February 14, 2008
Music Review
Why, Beethoven, You’ve Gone Mahlerian
By BERNARD HOLLAND

I never cease to be amazed how much time and space Holland wastes criticizing music for what it isn't trying to be.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on February 14, 2008, 09:25:06 PM
What do you mean by that?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on February 20, 2008, 03:51:44 PM
From Reuters

Beethoven's Music hits right note for stroke patients
Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:21pm EST
By Michael Kahn

LONDON (Reuters) - A little Beethoven is good for the brain, according to a Finnish study published on Wednesday showing that music helps people recover more quickly from strokes. And patients who listened to a few hours of music each day soon after a stroke also improved their verbal memory and were in a better mood compared to patients who did not listen to music or used audio books, the researchers said.
Music therapy has long been used in a range of treatments but the study published in the journal Brain is the first to show the effect in people, they added. "These findings demonstrate for the first time that music listening during the early post-stroke stage can enhance cognitive recovery and prevent negative mood," the researchers wrote. Strokes, which occur when blood flow to the brain is blocked, can kill brain tissue and are one of the worldwide leading causes of death and permanent disability. Treatments include blood thinning drugs and attempts to lower cholesterol.

The study involved 60 people who recently had a stroke of the middle cerebral artery in the left or right side of the brain. This is the most common stroke and can affect motor control, speech and a range of other cognitive functions.

One group listened to their favorite music every day or used audio books while another did not listen to any music. All volunteers received standard rehabilitation treatment.
Three months after stroke music listeners showed a 60 percent better improvement in verbal memory compared to an 18 percent benefit for those using audio books and 29 percent for people who did not listen to either.

The ability to focus attention also improved by 17 percent in music listeners, said Teppo Sarkamo, a psychologist at the Cognitive Brain Research Unit at the University of Helsinki, who led the study.
"We can't say what is happening in the brain but based on previous research and theory it may be music listening could actually activate the brain areas that are recovering," he said in a telephone interview.
Music might also in some way activate more general mechanisms that repair and renew the brain's neural networks after stroke, Sarkamo said.

Larger studies are needed to better understand exactly what is going on but these findings show that music may offer a cheap, easy additional treatment for stroke patients, he said.
"This could be considered a pilot study," Sarkamo said. "It is a promising start.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on February 20, 2008, 03:55:31 PM
Barenboim's Beethoven Will Resound for Decades: Norman Lebrecht

Feb. 19 (Bloomberg) -- There were 3,000 of us who stood and cheered, and three days later we are still trying to understand. Veterans concurred that nothing of its kind had been heard in London since the heyday of Horowitz and Rubinstein.

Daniel Barenboim's concerts were no three-day wonder, no three-week wonder even. They will be remembered for decades. The editor of the Guardian newspaper today described the result as ``beyond perfection.''

After the final chord of Beethoven's 32nd piano sonata at the Royal Festival Hall on Sunday, there followed 15 long seconds of complete silence before the audience leapt to their feet in ovation and the most riveting event of this musical century was declared closed.

In eight recitals over a span of three weeks, Barenboim had been playing the Beethoven sonatas in London as a single coherent entity and with intensity that has commanded attention outside the world of classical music. Barenboim, probably the only classical musician alive who can speak with moral authority on the great issues of the day, understands Beethoven as a composer of hope -- a man who perceives the world and its problems to be, with good will, surmountable.

This would have been reason enough for London to flock to his pulpit, given the leading role he has taken in promoting cultural and political dialogue in the Middle East. ``The Artist as Leader'' was how the series was marketed -- not that it needed any marketing. About 650 people bought tickets to the entire cycle, many of them on the day booking opened. Politicians of every color and leaders of media and industry were conspicuous in the audience.

Extreme Intimacy

Around 150 extra seats were crammed onto the stage, within three feet of the piano. This extreme intimacy added an extra dimension to Barenboim's concentration. From the opening notes, the hall shrunk to the size of a domestic living room.

There was additionally a sense that this event was unique and unrepeatable. Barenboim had declined a radio relay, explaining to one BBC panjandrum that London critics had not always treated him kindly in the past. In a cycle of this magnitude, played from memory, there were bound to be wrong notes -- indeed, there were. Nevertheless, the critical reception was, from the outset, overwhelmed by the Olympian ambition of the enterprise.

Barenboim, 65, first played the cycle in public as a teenager in Tel Aviv and has recorded it twice. But this was neither an athletic feat nor a commercial gift set performed for the sake of comprehensiveness. This was an artist at the summit of his powers approaching the music of life with both wisdom and humility.

Troubled Beethoven

Each program contained sonatas from the three periods of Beethoven's troubled life, early, middle and late. Each sonata was invested by Barenboim with a distinctive character.

In the final recital, the 9th sonata (opus 14/1) was marked by introspective restraint, the 4th (opus 7) was playful and exuberant, the 22nd (opus 54) moderately combative and the climactic opus 111 possessed of a visionary wildness that yielded at the end to a surreal calm.

This was beyond question a contemporary reading -- there were modulations in the opus 14/1 that would not have sounded out of place on a Radiohead album. But it was also an interpretation born of an innate understanding of the composer and his mind.

The closing melody of the opus 7 called to mind a hint of Beethoven's ``Choral Fantasia,'' itself a sketch for the Ninth Symphony, reminding us that everything written by this composer was hewn from the same gigantic mountain and with the same elevated message in mind.

Barenboim seemed to be playing, as the phrase goes, ``well within himself'' -- in the dual sense that he did not make large gestures and that he was preoccupied with interior thoughts.

Extreme Exertion

At certain points his exertion was so extreme that he would hold a chord with his right hand, pedaling heavily, while reaching with his left for a handkerchief to mop the sweat.

I cannot ever recall such sustained audience concentration in so large a space. The young man sitting next to me was attending the first piano recital of his life, drawn to the flame by an article he had read. He barely blinked an eye for two hours.

And when it was over, when the rumpled pianist in dark suit and black shirt returned one last time to the stage to greet his communicants on all four sides, he placed the stool beneath the keyboard and gently shut the lid. Will we ever hear its like again?  
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MishaK on February 21, 2008, 09:47:56 AM
What do you mean by that?

I mean that Holland complains that a Mahler transcription of a Beethoven quartet makes it sound bigger and not as intimate. Well, duh! Point is that Mahler was aiming for something entirely different with this transcription, but Holland's ears and mind are to plugged up to hear it.

"Gustav Mahler’s orchestral transcription of Beethoven’s Opus 95 String Quartet suggests that inside every thin man is a fat one trying to get out."

He's one of the shittiest writers in classical music in the US this side of Hurwitz. 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 02, 2008, 04:05:37 AM
Martha Argerich; Live From the Lugano Festival 2007




"[Argerich's] fire is evident in Beethoven's Op 70 No 1, the Ghost trio. But every musician is energised. Mischa Maisky's cello, in the same work, hugs the listener like a friendly bear, though there's plenty of scary tension when needed in the largo's climax. Here and elsewhere, Renaud Capuçon, the violinist, lets the emotions vibrate."

(http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/cd_reviews/article3452473.ece)




TRACKLISTING

CD 1
Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Trio in D major Op. 70 No 1 for piano , violin and cello

«Geister-Trio»

[1] 1. Allegro vivace con brio
[2] 2. Largo assai ed espressivo
[3] 3. Presto

Martha Argerich, pianoforte
Renaud Capuçon, violino
Mischa Maisky, violoncello

Ferruccio Busoni (1866-1924) / Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756-1791)
[4] Fantasie für eine Orgelwalze

Martha Argerich, piano
Lilya Zilberstein, piano

Robert Schumann (1810 - 1856)

[5] Andante and Variation for two pianos Op 46

Martha Argerich, piano
Gabriela Montero, piano

Robert Schumann (1810-1856)
Kinderszenen op. 15

[6] 1. Von fremden Ländern und Menschen
[7] 2. Kuriose Geschichte
[8] 3. Hasche-Mann
[9] 4. Bittendes Kind
[10] 5. Glückes genug
[11] 6. Wichtige Begebenheit
[12] 7. Träumerei
[13] 8. Am Kamin
[14] 9. Ritter vom Steckenpferd
[15] 10. Fast zu ernst
[16] 11. Fürchtenmachen
[17] 12. Kind und Einschlummern
[18] 13. Der Dichter spricht

Martha Argerich, piano



CD2

Ludwig van Beethoven (1770 - 1827)
Quartet in D major, WoO 36, No. 2
for violin, viola, violoncello and piano

[1] 1. Allegro moderato
[2] 2. Andante con moto
[3] 3. Rondo. Allegro

Karin Lechner, piano
Alissa Margulis, violin
Lida Chen, viola
Mark Dobrinsky, cello

Maurice Ravel (1875-1937)
Ma mère l’oye, suite for piano four hands

[4] 1. Pavane de la Belle au bois dormante (Lent)
[5] 2. Petit Poucet (Très modéré)
[6] 3. Laideronnette, Impératrice des pagodes
(Mouvement de marche)
[7] 4. Les entretiens de la Belle et de la Bête
(Mouvement de valse modéré)
[8] 5. Le jardin féerique (Lent et grave).

Martha Argerich, piano
Alxander Mogilevsky, piano

Mikhail I. Glinka (1804-1857)
Grand Sextet for piano, two violins, viola, cello and doublebass

[9] 1. Larghetto - Moderato – Allegretto
[10] 2. Andante cantabile
[11] 3. Vivace

Alexander Mogilevsky, piano
Lucy Hall, violin
Alissa Margulis, violin
Nora Romanoff-Schwarzberg, viola
Mark Drobinsky, cello
Enrico Fagone, double bass

Olivier Messiaen (1908-1992)
[12] Thème et variations pour Violon et Piano (1932)

Alissa Margulis, violin
Francesco Piemontese, piano

Maurice Ravel (1875-1937)
Daphnis et Chloé, Suite No 2
(transcribed for two pianos by Lucien Garban)

[13] 1. Lever du jour (Lent)
[14] 2. Pantomime (Lent – Très lent – Vif – Très lent)
[15] 3. Danse générale (Lent – Animé)

Sergio Tiempo, piano
Karin Lechner, piano



CD 3

Béla Bartók (1881-1945)
Sonata No 1 Sz 75 for violin and piano
[1] 1. Allegro appassionato
[2] 2. Adagio
[3] 3. Allegro

Renaud Capuçon, violino
Martha Argerich, piano

Ernst von Dohnányi (1877-1960)
Quintet No 1 in C minor for piano, two violins, viola and violoncello, op.1
[4] 1. Allegro
[5] 2. Scherzo
[6] 3. Adagio, quasi Andante
[7] 4. Finale. Allegro animato

Nicholas Angelich, piano
Dora Schwarzberg, violin
Lucy Hall, violin
Nora Romanoff-Schwarzberg, viola
Jorge Bosso, cello

Witold Lutoslawski (1913-1994)
[8] Variations on a theme of Paganini
Martha Argerich, piano
Mauricio Vallina, piano
Live recordings: Auditorio Stelio Molo, Lugano, June 2007
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 06, 2008, 11:40:01 AM
(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11529_coverpic.jpg)
Eroica, Helsingborg Symphony Orchestra / Andrew Manze / Harmonia Mundi




 "...taken on its own terms, and with the very enlightening couplings, this well-played, well-engineered SACD multichannel release remains a most attractive option."

(http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11529)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on March 08, 2008, 05:00:47 PM

 
Something remarkable is going on at the Royal Festival Hall, where Daniel Barenboim, the master pianist, has reached the halfway point of his cycle of the Beethoven sonatas: 16 gone, 16 to go. The journey resumes tonight, and the fact that tickets for all eight concerts have gone won't stop people trying to grab a return.
 
 

*Wipes drool from mouth, then passes Kleenex box to wife so she can do the same.*
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 10, 2008, 04:40:24 AM

The BSO barrels through Beethoven
By Tim Smith, Sun Music Critic
March 8, 2008
 (http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/music/bal-to.bso08mar08,0,2331961.story)


"Beethoven's grip on the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra tightened this week, and its grip on Beethoven tightened as well.  By season's end, all nine of the composer's symphonies will have been heard. His fist-shaking Fifth got a bracing workout Thursday at the Music Center at Strathmore, as did a shorter piece of equally compelling drama and propulsion, the Leonore Overture No. 3.  In between came music of our time, Christopher Rouse's Flute Concerto, which generated considerable drama and propulsion of its own. (The program is now at Meyerhoff Symphony Hall.)  BSO music director Marin Alsop likes her Beethoven lean and mean, and that's how it sounded here - zero-percent body fat, but plenty of sinew."
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 10, 2008, 06:03:39 AM
I wish the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra would stop using the acronym BSO which to most of us means the Boston Symphony Orchestra.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: paulb on March 10, 2008, 04:15:11 PM

The BSO barrels through Beethoven
By Tim Smith, Sun Music Critic
March 8, 2008
 (http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/music/bal-to.bso08mar08,0,2331961.story)


"Beethoven's grip on the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra tightened this week, and its grip on Beethoven tightened as well.  By season's end, all nine of the composer's symphonies will have been heard. His fist-shaking Fifth got a bracing workout Thursday at the Music Center at Strathmore, as did a shorter piece of equally compelling drama and propulsion, the Leonore Overture No. 3.  In between came music of our time, Christopher Rouse's Flute Concerto, which generated considerable drama and propulsion of its own. (The program is now at Meyerhoff Symphony Hall.)  BSO music director Marin Alsop likes her Beethoven lean and mean, and that's how it sounded here - zero-percent body fat, but plenty of sinew."

LONG LIVE VON BEETHOVEN
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Lethevich on March 10, 2008, 04:59:29 PM
I wish the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra would stop using the acronym BSO which to most of us means the Boston Symphony Orchestra.

They could use "Baltso" - kinda of catchy :P
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Norbeone on March 11, 2008, 05:29:41 AM
Why can't we talk about Mendelssohn in this thread?!?! Jeez.....







 >:D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2008, 05:58:21 AM
Why can't we talk about Mendelssohn in this thread?!?! Jeez.....







 >:D

Mendelssohn wrote one of his early piano sonatas as a birthday gift for his sister. He was only 15 or 16 at the time, but it is really an impressive piece of work. It is in Bb, 4 movements including an extended fugue movement, and he numbered it Op 106... I guess he was a fanboy himself.   :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Saul on March 11, 2008, 01:21:55 PM
"I believe in God, Mozart, and Beethoven"  

          ~ Richard Wagner

"There was only Beethoven and Wagner [and] after them, nobody."  

          ~ Gustav Mahler






Ammm.. the word propoganda comes to mind...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on March 11, 2008, 04:24:24 PM
They could use "Baltso" - kinda of catchy :P
I prefer Orchestra of the Underachievers. So much potential, such shallow playing.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on March 12, 2008, 03:44:33 PM
Ammm.. the word propoganda comes to mind...



"I believe in God, Mozart, and Beethoven"

          ~ Richard Wagner

"There was only Beethoven and Wagner [and] after them, nobody."

          ~ Gustav Mahler



I think Herr Mahler could have added himself to the latter list at least, and Herr Wagner to the first. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on March 12, 2008, 09:39:32 PM
This is a great Beethoven CD, by a great Pianist:

(http://i16.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/df/3c/ddd3_1.JPG)

See signature for details.  0:)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 13, 2008, 05:21:04 AM

Kuerti To The Rescue

Talk about father-son bonding. For those who didn't hear... Last night, pianist Leon Fleisher was too ill to perform with the Boston Symphony Orchestra. This left assistant conductor Julian Kuerti in the lurch until, that is, dad stepped onto the stage. See, Anton Kuerti can play.  We don't normally review the last night of a concert series, but we were able to get Matthew Guerrieri over to Symphony Hall.

Here's a sneak peak of his review, which will run in the Globe tomorrow.  Tuesday’s Boston Symphony Orchestra concert paid tribute to every parent who ever bailed his kid out of a jam. Pianist Leon Fleisher fell victim to a stomach virus late Tuesday afternoon, putting the evening’s scheduled performance of Beethoven’s Piano Concerto no. 5 (“Emperor”)  in jeopardy. But BSO assistant conductor Julian Kuerti, making his official debut with the orchestra on these concerts, had a fallback: His dad was in town. And Anton Kuerti is one of the best interpreters of Beethoven around.

The Vienna-born pianist, now something of a national treasure in Canada, has an impeccable lineage, having studied with Rudolf Serkin and Mieczyslaw Horszowski. His playing is strikingly individual, yet honors the spirit of Horszowski’s teacher, the legendary Theodor Leschetizky: a focus on line and touch, a clear and flexible rhythm, a deeply analytical and exploratory approach. The latter quality was immediately apparent on Tuesday; not a note had been taken for granted, with even the most prosaic passages refracted through a powerful intellectual prism. 

The elder Kuerti fully exploits the percussive attack of the piano without the tone ever becoming brittle. The opening movement’s coursing scales buzzed and rang with bright power and stinging accents, while a quiet sharpness in the lyrical theme kept the electric current alive. Beethoven’s explosive juxtapositions were not merely jolts, but the sudden release of coiled tension.

In the second-movement aria, Kuerti shaped the melody with a manifold palette of articulation, innumerable precisely-cut facets, but also deployed an uncanny consistency of tone to give Beethoven’s more obsessive, repeated patterns a slow-burning intensity. An occasional delicate staccato and a touch of melting rubato emphasized the off-balance polyrhythms at the finale’s outset, making the movement’s thumping peroration all the more triumphant. After orchestra and soloist brought the music to a near-inaudible stillness, the piano positively detonated the blazing coda.

Contrasting with his father’s often wiry tone, the younger Kuerti drew sumptuous sounds from the orchestra, making the concerto a real dialogue rather than a homogenized ersatz symphony. (He took a similar approach in the program's first half: a vibrant and dashing account of Oliver Knussen’s “The Way to Castle Yonder” and a dark, robust reading of Dvorak’s Seventh Symphony.) With no chance for rehearsal, rough edges were inevitable. But emphasizing spontaneity over smoothness, inquiry over indulgence, father and son showed why some warhorses deserve their status -- how, with enough intelligence and daring, even familiar music can seem new.

(http://www.boston.com/ae/theater_arts/exhibitionist/anton.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 13, 2008, 05:25:15 AM



Beethovenfest Features Politics of Music

(http://www.dw-world.de/image/0,,1514558_1,00.jpg)

This year’s month-long Beethovenfest Bonn, will explore the relationship between power, politics and music, organizers have announced. Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827) was a multifaceted composer whose compositions have unequalled staying power.

Each year, Beethoven's birth city, Bonn, hosts an internationally acclaimed music festival in his honor. This year, the organizers have picked a particularly contemporary topic: the relationship between power, politics and music.

Deutsche Welle is an official media partner of the event, which will bring about 2,000 well-known artists from around the world to the former German capital city. For the past four years the Beethovenfest has focused on various countries. But this year's month-long event, which starts Aug. 29, will focus on the political aspects of Beethoven's legacy.
 

It will look at the political statements Beethoven made through his work as well as with the ideological misappropriation of his music in the 20th century. As part of this examination, several concerts will be held in Bonn venues with political and social importance such as the former West German parliamentary chambers, the Palais Schaumburg where former chancellors lived and worked and the Hotel Petersberg, the seat of the Allied High Commission after World War II.
 

Persecuted composers

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift:  Masur will conduct all nine symphonies

By examining the misappropriation and marginalization in music, this year's Beethovenfest will set about exploring a very contemporary and explosive topic. "Ostracized music, forbidden music, the relationship between music and politics today -- the question of how music is functionalized, even today, that is a cutting edge theme," said Ilona Schmiel, the Beethovenfest's director.

One of the event's highlights will be a project led by the British violinist Daniel Hope. With his "Music was Hope" program, he will explore artists who were in the Nazi's Theresienstadt concentration camp located in what is now the Czech Republic. Hope, Philip Dukes and Ulrich Mattes will interpret music of Gideon Klein, Hans Krasa and Erwin Schulhoff. Hope will also present his arrangement of Maurice Ravel's Jewish Kaddish music.  "This is an examination of music that originated in the concentration camps from very young and courageous Czech composers," Hope said.

Klein was in his early 20s when he was imprisoned in the camp. He was already a talented pianist and composer, on the fast track towards a career as a traveling musician. During his imprisonment from 1942 to 1945 he became a supporter for other musicians held in Theresienstadt. "He simply motivated the other artists, musicians and writers to continue on and not to think about their situation," Hope said. "So I think that for me this fits extremely well to this examination of power and music."

Political context

Bildunterschrift: Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift:  Daniel Hope will explore music from Nazi concentration camps

Beethoven's beloved Ninth Symphony is a perfect example of a work that has been exploited to fit ideologies. Beethoven composed it to pay homage to the spirit of the Enlightenment. The song was later used as propaganda by the Third Reich and as the Iron Curtain began to crumble it became an anthem of freedom during German reunification. The Beethovenfest will present the complete cycle of all nine symphonies under the direction of Kurt Masur with the Orchestre National de France.

Deutsche Welle will once again sponsor a youth orchestra to travel to Germany for a week-long residency and performance of a specially commissioned musical work. This year will feature the Anton-Rubinstein Orchestra from the St. Petersburg Conservatory, which has produced numerous world-renown musicians over its 146 years in existence.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 13, 2008, 07:52:53 PM


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41BlJskC-TL._SS500_.jpg)

 

85 CD set for $125.99 @ AMAZON (USA)  (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Works-85CD-Box/dp/B000VBNRE4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1205465294&sr=1-1)




(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/sp_art/p9s8.gif)
A substantial portion of the material derives from the Universal Classics family of labels. Friedrich Gulda's thrilling, sometimes iconoclastic late-1960s Piano Sonata cycle appears alongside the pianist's less consistent though never uninteresting collaborations with Horst Stein and the Vienna Philharmonic in the five piano concertos. Alfred Brendel's early Vox Diabelli Variations is musically and sonically inferior to his more mature Philips remakes, while an entire disc of keyboard miscellany (including the rabble-rousing G minor Fantasia Op. 77) features lean-toned, gutsy playing from one Georg Friedrich Schenck.

You can do worse than the sometimes underplayed (Nos. 3, 5, 7, and 9) yet never less than solid 1974 Masur/Leipzig symphonies cycle, where Nos. 1, 2, 4, and 8 particularly attract attention. Not only do the classic mono Grumiaux/Haskil Violin Sonata encounters from Philips still sonically hold their own, but they also tower above each of that label's subsequent stereo versions. The Guarneri's 1987-92 Beethoven quartet cycle always impressed me for its vitality, sharply honed linear interplay, and warm engineering.

Was a Philips Missa solemnis a must? If so, I would have recommended Jochum's heartfelt, robustly engineered version over the later and cooler Colin Davis traversal here. Similarly, why the clean yet faceless Szeryng/Haitink Violin Concerto instead of the more involved Grumiaux/Galleria? Yet collectors who searched far and wide for Heinrich Schiff's 1998 Cello Sonatas now can bask in this great artist's extraordinary finesse and musical intelligence.

Should you prefer Beethoven piano trios on the flexible, roomy side, the Borodin Trio's 1984 Chandos cycle will suit your metabolism. Other chamber works both hit and miss, performance-wise.

--Jed Distler

(http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11307)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 14, 2008, 03:50:26 PM
New York Times
March 14, 2008


Music Review | San Francisco Symphony
Beethoven's Eroica -- Delivering the Standards Along With the Scarce
By ALLAN KOZINN

Michael Tilson Thomas’s visits to New York with the San Francisco Symphony are invariably refreshing, partly because the orchestra’s playing is flexible and energetic but mainly because Mr. Thomas’s programs usually step beyond the standard canon. Still, major orchestras deserve (and generally demand) to be measured against the competition in the core repertory as well. So in his concerts at Carnegie Hall on Tuesday and Wednesday, Mr. Thomas led his San Franciscans in meticulously balanced programs, with war horses like Beethoven’s “Eroica” Symphony and Strauss’s “Four Last Songs” offset by worthy rarities like William Schuman’s Violin Concerto and Samuel Barber’s “Andromache’s Farewell.”

The trick in playing a war horse is to make it sound as if it were not one without sacrificing the grandeur that won the work its status. That’s having it both ways, and it’s not easily done. Mr. Thomas’s solution in the “Eroica” on Tuesday was to reduce the orchestra somewhat (though not quite to the chamber proportions he used in his Beethoven recordings of the 1980s) and to keep the tempos brisk, even breathless, everywhere but in the Marcia funebre. The work’s two opening chords had hardly any space between them, and given the tempo of the opening section, it was hard not to think of them as a starter’s gun rather than cannon blasts.

That is not to say that Mr. Thomas’s tempos weren’t effective. They put Beethoven’s off-kilter accenting in a new light, and given the clean, focused and sometimes earthy performance, it was hard not to admire the virtuosity involved.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on March 14, 2008, 04:14:20 PM
Dm,
Really like what you have been doing with this Beethoven thread.  I do not subscribe to any classical music magazines and the articles you post fill this void nicely, so thank you for digging all of these articles up.  Ever consider also starting a Mozart thread like this?  I, for one, would read it. 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 15, 2008, 06:14:03 AM
Ever consider also starting a Mozart thread like this?  I, for one, would read it. 


The Mozart thread is reserved for Iago ! ! !
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on March 15, 2008, 06:27:50 AM

The Mozart thread is reserved for Iago ! ! !

Why did that conjure up the image of Titanic and ice?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 15, 2008, 08:41:14 AM
Why did that conjure up the image of Titanic and ice?

Actually, in a parallel universe somewhere, Iago hosts a Mozart thread, Gurn hosts a Wagner thread, and I host an Elgar thread .........  :D

(http://www.lothere.com/verso/images/1085/mirror_mirror.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: edward on March 15, 2008, 09:05:43 AM
Actually, in a parallel universe somewhere, Iago hosts a Mozart thread, Gurn hosts a Wagner thread, and I host an Elgar thread .........  :D

(http://www.lothere.com/verso/images/1085/mirror_mirror.jpg)
And in this universe, perhaps Leonard Nimoy and William Shatner are good actors.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on March 15, 2008, 11:57:42 AM
Actually, in a parallel universe somewhere, Iago hosts a Mozart thread, Gurn hosts a Wagner thread, and I host an Elgar thread .........  :D

(http://www.lothere.com/verso/images/1085/mirror_mirror.jpg)

Post of the year....easily.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on March 15, 2008, 01:53:48 PM
Post of the year....easily.



I'll start an Andrew Lloyd Webber thread. Wheeee!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on March 16, 2008, 08:49:40 AM
...and I'll start a Star Trek thread.











not.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2008, 09:28:35 AM
Actually, in a parallel universe somewhere, Iago hosts a Mozart thread, Gurn hosts a Wagner thread, and I host an Elgar thread .........  :D

(http://www.lothere.com/verso/images/1085/mirror_mirror.jpg)

"Wagner is an overrated buffoon - Discuss"

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Vienna Philharmonic / Schmidt-Isserstedt - Beethoven Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 16, 2008, 10:47:59 AM
"Wagner [the man] is an overrated buffoon - Discuss"

But what about Wagner's music?

(((BTW, in this parallel universe, you actually enjoy and embrace Wagner's music to such a degree that you're willing to start a thread on the topic ......... maybe we didn't make this clear   :D  :D  :D)))
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on March 16, 2008, 10:56:48 AM
But what about Wagner's music?

(((BTW, in this parallel universe, you actually enjoy and embrace Wagner's music to such a degree that you're willing to start a thread on the topic ......... maybe we didn't make this clear   :D  :D  :D)))

Unless Gurn is making Shatner say the line in an over-acted/shocked manner....then it works. Would need a question mark at the end though. ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 16, 2008, 11:19:31 AM
Unless Gurn is making Shatner say the line in an over-acted/shocked manner....then it works. Would need a question mark at the end though. ;D

I was looking for a question mark ....... and didn't see one ........ Perhaps an oversight on Gurn's part  :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on March 16, 2008, 12:02:04 PM
"Wagner is an overrated buffoon - Discuss"

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Vienna Philharmonic / Schmidt-Isserstedt - Beethoven Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile



Richard...Wag-ner...over....RAted...buf-OON........QUES-tions?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 22, 2008, 03:43:33 AM
March 22, 2008
New York Times Music Review
Attracting Audiences With Intricacy
By ANTHONY TOMMASINI

(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/03/22/arts/pierre190.jpg)

When the brilliant French pianist Pierre-Laurent Aimard signed a solo recording contract with Deutsche Grammophon last year, the first project he proposed was a complete account of Bach’s “Art of Fugue.” This rigorous work, which preoccupied its composer in his final years, explores every dimension of the contrapuntal technique in a set of 14 fugues (the last left incomplete) and four canons. Bach adapted the subjects for each piece from the same elemental theme. “The Art of Fugue” would hardly seem popular mainstream repertory.

Yet Mr. Aimard’s producers at Deutsche Grammophon were smart to trust the instincts of this intellectually probing artist. Improbably, on the day of its release, March 11, his “Art of Fugue” recording went to the top of the classical music charts of both Billboard and iTunes. It was featured on the iTunes home page, along with Snoop Dogg and U2. What better proof that the availability of classical music on the Internet is attracting curious new listeners?

On Thursday night Mr. Aimard opened his Carnegie Hall recital with the first 11 pieces from “The Art of Fugue” (Contrapuncti I through XI, Bach called them, using an antique term for fugue): nearly 50 minutes of complex polyphonic music. After intermission Mr. Aimard played two formidable works that also explore polyphonic technique: Schoenberg’s Five Pieces (Op. 23) and Beethoven’s late-period Sonata No. 31 in A flat. In yet another encouraging sign for classical music, this brainy program attracted a large, attentive and enthusiastic audience.

In the liner notes for his recording, Mr. Aimard is quoted as saying that “The Art of Fugue” was long taken to be “the height of abstraction.” Indeed, Bach notated the individual voices of the fugues on separate staffs, leaving no indication of the instrument (or instruments) for which he intended them. For a pianist, projecting the awkwardly intricate voices of the fugues with clarity requires a subtle kind of virtuosity.

A listener can try to follow the ingenious ways Bach takes the somber original theme and reinvents it, transforms it, gives it a dotted-note rhythmic twist, uses it as a starting point to evoke a filigreed French Baroque dance in the form of a fugue, and so on. But as played by Mr. Aimard with such lovely shadings, textural clarity, rhythmic integrity and calm authority, the music had a severe and wondrous beauty.

As he noted in comments to the audience, the last of the fugues, thick with chromatic harmony, point to Schoenberg’s atonal Five Pieces, completed in 1923. The concluding piece, an impressionistic evocation of a Viennese waltz, is the first official 12-tone work Schoenberg wrote. But while projecting the pungently atonal language of the music, Mr. Aimard also conveyed its rich textures and colorings.

Coming after the Bach and the Schoenberg, the Beethoven sonata, in which a stately opening theme is cushioned by milky arpeggios and shimmering runs, sounded almost as lush as Ravel. In a nod to Bach, this work culminates in an exhilarating fugue.

Context is everything. For his first encore, Mr. Aimard played Elliott Carter’s “Caténaires,” from 2006, and for all its complexity, this onrushing, virtuosic roller coaster of a piece came across like an audience-wowing toccata. For symmetry, Mr. Aimard’s final encore was Contrapunctus XII of “The Art of Fugue,” Bach’s homage to the spare polyphonic writing of Renaissance masters.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 22, 2008, 05:39:47 PM


Beethoven lands in Vancouver, via Germany
For this production of Fidelio, director Dejan Miladinovic moves the opera from 19th-century Spain to the era of the Berlin Wall
MARSHA LEDERMAN

March 22, 2008

VANCOUVER -- For fans of theatre and opera who have sat through one too many modern-day Macbeths that didn't quite translate, one too many contemporary Carmens that didn't ring true, the concept of setting Beethoven's only opera, Fidelio, during the fall of the Berlin Wall might not be enticing.

But the Vancouver Opera production of Fidelio, opening tonight at the Queen Elizabeth Theatre, should not be mistaken as one thrown together with a modern-day twist simply to fill seats. Director Dejan Miladinovic knows firsthand the challenges of creating art in the shadow of political oppression, and the decision to relocate Fidelio from a prison in Spain to a Stasi jail in East Berlin came after long deliberation.

Miladinovic, 59, grew up in Belgrade, Yugoslavia (now Serbia). The son of a mezzo-soprano mother and a conductor father, he was born into the opera - quite literally, with his mother going into labour as she waited backstage while his father conducted a rehearsal of Aida. He was also born into political turmoil in post-Second World War Yugoslavia. But as an adult, when he watched the televised pictures of the Berlin Wall coming down, he believed his life, his country and his own opportunities for artistic creativity were about to change. It was a huge moment in his life.

"That's why I'm doing this," Miladinovic says, referring to the decision to set the opera in November, 1989, as the Berlin Wall fell.

[CLICK HERE FOR FULL ARTICLE ! ! !]   :D  :D  :D   
(http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080322.FIDELIO22/TPStory/TPEntertainment/Music/)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bogey on March 22, 2008, 08:31:38 PM
March 22, 2008
New York Times Music Review
Attracting Audiences With Intricacy
By ANTHONY TOMMASINI

(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/03/22/arts/pierre190.jpg)

When the brilliant French pianist Pierre-Laurent Aimard signed a solo recording contract with Deutsche Grammophon last year, the first project he proposed was a complete account of Bach’s “Art of Fugue.” This rigorous work, which preoccupied its composer in his final years, explores every dimension of the contrapuntal technique in a set of 14 fugues (the last left incomplete) and four canons. Bach adapted the subjects for each piece from the same elemental theme. “The Art of Fugue” would hardly seem popular mainstream repertory.

Yet Mr. Aimard’s producers at Deutsche Grammophon were smart to trust the instincts of this intellectually probing artist. Improbably, on the day of its release, March 11, his “Art of Fugue” recording went to the top of the classical music charts of both Billboard and iTunes. It was featured on the iTunes home page, along with Snoop Dogg and U2. What better proof that the availability of classical music on the Internet is attracting curious new listeners?

On Thursday night Mr. Aimard opened his Carnegie Hall recital with the first 11 pieces from “The Art of Fugue” (Contrapuncti I through XI, Bach called them, using an antique term for fugue): nearly 50 minutes of complex polyphonic music. After intermission Mr. Aimard played two formidable works that also explore polyphonic technique: Schoenberg’s Five Pieces (Op. 23) and Beethoven’s late-period Sonata No. 31 in A flat. In yet another encouraging sign for classical music, this brainy program attracted a large, attentive and enthusiastic audience.

In the liner notes for his recording, Mr. Aimard is quoted as saying that “The Art of Fugue” was long taken to be “the height of abstraction.” Indeed, Bach notated the individual voices of the fugues on separate staffs, leaving no indication of the instrument (or instruments) for which he intended them. For a pianist, projecting the awkwardly intricate voices of the fugues with clarity requires a subtle kind of virtuosity.

A listener can try to follow the ingenious ways Bach takes the somber original theme and reinvents it, transforms it, gives it a dotted-note rhythmic twist, uses it as a starting point to evoke a filigreed French Baroque dance in the form of a fugue, and so on. But as played by Mr. Aimard with such lovely shadings, textural clarity, rhythmic integrity and calm authority, the music had a severe and wondrous beauty.

As he noted in comments to the audience, the last of the fugues, thick with chromatic harmony, point to Schoenberg’s atonal Five Pieces, completed in 1923. The concluding piece, an impressionistic evocation of a Viennese waltz, is the first official 12-tone work Schoenberg wrote. But while projecting the pungently atonal language of the music, Mr. Aimard also conveyed its rich textures and colorings.

Coming after the Bach and the Schoenberg, the Beethoven sonata, in which a stately opening theme is cushioned by milky arpeggios and shimmering runs, sounded almost as lush as Ravel. In a nod to Bach, this work culminates in an exhilarating fugue.

Context is everything. For his first encore, Mr. Aimard played Elliott Carter’s “Caténaires,” from 2006, and for all its complexity, this onrushing, virtuosic roller coaster of a piece came across like an audience-wowing toccata. For symmetry, Mr. Aimard’s final encore was Contrapunctus XII of “The Art of Fugue,” Bach’s homage to the spare polyphonic writing of Renaissance masters.


I wonder how much LvB Mr. Aimard will record for DG?  Another great article Dm.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 26, 2008, 07:40:39 PM
...If I may steal a moment from Dm to slip in a :o along with a euphoric wow!!!!! for the sixth and ninth symphonies from this Jaap Van Zweden Beethoven symphony cycle on Philips....

Van Zweden's Beethoven is HIP influenced as far as overall approach though performed on modern instruments. Tempos are fresh, lively, and buoyant, though minus anything that approaches the furious. Textures are crystal clear and warm, with sweeping gestures full of felicities streamed our way. 

This is 'lights spectacular' Beethoven with every phrase aglow and every bar crackling. So good, in fact, it's as if the music were freshly minted.

Haven't gotten around to the rest of the cycle yet but if it keeps this up I've got my new favorite Beethoven cycle.



(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510-G0CxAlL._SS500_.jpg)




Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 27, 2008, 04:25:05 AM
...If I may steal a moment from Dm to slip in a :o along with a euphoric wow!!!!! for the sixth and ninth symphonies from this Jaap Van Zweden Beethoven symphony cycle on Philips....

Van Zweden's Beethoven is HIP influenced as far as overall approach though performed on modern instruments. Tempos are fresh, lively, and buoyant, though minus anything that approaches the furious. Textures are crystal clear and warm, with sweeping gestures full of felicities streamed our way. 

This is 'lights spectacular' Beethoven with every phrase aglow and every bar crackling. So good, in fact, it's as if the music were freshly minted.

Haven't gotten around to the rest of the cycle yet but if it keeps this up I've got my new favorite Beethoven cycle.



(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510-G0CxAlL._SS500_.jpg)

Awesome writeup ......... U da man!  Please share your final thoughts once you've heard the full batch ........  0:)

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on March 27, 2008, 04:27:08 AM
From March 28th to April 7th, the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra will celebrate the life of Ludwig van Beethoven  :D  (http://www.huliq.com/54863/vancouver-orchestra-maestro-tovey-present-beethoven-festival)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on March 27, 2008, 11:01:35 AM
Glenn Gould says some great things about Beethoven.  :-*
http://www.youtube.com/v/cSdFeFv09H8


Paraphrase: "The banality of the (Beethoven) Violin Concerto" Hilarious. This I rank with the hilarious comments he made on Mozart being a "poor composer". He was smoking something really good (or bad, I should say).

Kind of like Glenn Gould's attempt at a publicity stunt, these comments can't be taken seriously, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 27, 2008, 06:36:31 PM
Awesome writeup ......... U da man!  Please share your final thoughts once you've heard the full batch ........  0:)



Sure will, Dm! And thanks! :)




Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Guido on March 31, 2008, 06:08:45 AM
Thought this was a rather poor article on Wkipedia, regarding the late quartets, considering their importance. I'm sure people here know enough and care enough to change this!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartets_Nos._12_-_16_and_Grosse_Fuge%2C_Opus_127%2C_130_-_135_%28Beethoven%29
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 02, 2008, 05:56:08 AM
Music Review from New York Times


April 1, 2008
Music Review
Beethoven With Period Flavor and a Steely Edge
By STEVE SMITH

Does the world need any more Beethoven recordings? That question has been raised time and again to indicate the folly of companies that continue to record his works. Our digitized Toscaninis, Szells and Karajans, after all, should last a lifetime. But in the ’90s recordings by period-instrument ensembles provided new insight into how revolutionary Beethoven’s music might have sounded in his day. Lately, conductors like Osmo Vanska and Paavo Jarvi have been applying lessons learned from those performances to important discs made with modern orchestras.

Similarly, the charismatic Danish conductor Thomas Dausgaard is recording Beethoven’s complete orchestral works with the Swedish Chamber Orchestra, with nine volumes now available on Simax, a Norwegian label. Those discs are expensive and hard to find here (though iTunes sells each volume for $9.99). On Sunday evening Mr. Dausgaard and his 37-member band offered a sample of what most of us have been missing with an all-Beethoven program at the Rose Theater, presented by the Great Performers series of Lincoln Center.


Apart from natural trumpets and squat timpani with hand-cranked tuning mechanisms, the Swedish Chamber Orchestra plays on modern instruments. The ensemble approaches Beethoven with the reduced forces, limited vibrato and driven tempos favored by proponents of historically informed performance, in the current jargon.  But the orchestra brings to this music a textural clarity and steely edge unattainable by most period-instrument groups. And in Mr. Dausgaard it has a conductor who molds its performances for maximum impact. In the “Coriolan” Overture, which opened the concert, the ensemble’s playing crackled with fierce electricity and dramatic urgency.

Beethoven’s debt to Mozart is evident in the Piano Concerto No. 1, a point not missed by Mr. Dausgaard or his soloist, Piotr Anderszewski, a stylish, idiosyncratic young Polish-Hungarian pianist. Mr. Anderszewski’s playing had a tasteful elasticity, and a genial sparkle well matched by his collaborators. But Mr. Dausgaard and Mr. Anderszewski also underscored the peppery jolts and unsettling dissonances that set Beethoven apart from his model. Mr. Dausgaard’s flair for drama was especially keen in the Symphony No. 7. In the first movement he lingered ever so slightly in the transition between the slow introduction and the Vivace section, rightly emphasizing its strangeness. The Presto had a saucy bite, and the Finale was a dizzying flurry.  The orchestra provided two encores: Sibelius’s “Valse Triste,” stretched and squished like Silly Putty, and Hugo Alfven’s rustically clucking “Vallflickans Dans.”
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: FideLeo on April 03, 2008, 12:54:17 AM
Music Review from New York Times




Apart from natural trumpets and squat timpani with hand-cranked tuning mechanisms, the Swedish Chamber Orchestra plays on modern instruments. The ensemble approaches Beethoven with the reduced forces, limited vibrato and driven tempos favored by proponents of historically informed performance, in the current jargon.  But the orchestra brings to this music a textural clarity and steely edge unattainable by most period-instrument groups. And in Mr. Dausgaard it has a conductor who molds its performances for maximum impact.


Maximal impact?  I have Daugsand's Beethoven 7 recording on Simax and found it suffering from a lack of dynamism... To me his modified HIP style looked good in description but fell flat in actual listening experience and it certainly does not have the colour palette of a real period instrument orchestra. (Try Bruggen? Hogwood?)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: -abe- on April 04, 2008, 06:23:54 PM
Does anyone else find the Choral symphony creepy and bone chilling?  :o
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 05, 2008, 08:02:47 AM
Does anyone else find the Choral symphony creepy and bone chilling?  :o

Perhaps I'm alone in this, but "creepy and bone chilling" are not the first words that immediately spring to mind upon listening to LvB's Choral Symphony .......

Which recording were you listening to?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 05, 2008, 08:03:44 AM
New York Times

April 5, 2008
Music Review | New York Philharmonic
Beethoven Sets the Stage for Gloomy Hues of War
By BERNARD HOLLAND

Vaughan Williams’s Fourth Symphony always comes as a surprise. The image of British music’s pastoral (or is it pasteurized?) scene turns ugly. Don’t look for any village greens or shepherds singing. The Fourth, as played by Colin Davis and the New York Philharmonic at Avery Fisher Hall on Thursday, is angry, bleak and sardonic, a worthy precursor to Shostakovich in his most desperate hours.

If it were not for this particular piece, Vaughan Williams and his music might fit that old conceit about pet owners and their pets looking alike. Just as Ravel, to take another example, was small, dignified and elegant, if slightly overdressed, Vaughan Williams, from his pictures at least, looks overweight, calm and slow-moving. The eye might infer a subdued but generous soul; it does not seem desperate.

Some people attribute the Fourth Symphony’s bad mood to the political environment, but this was only 1934, and Hitler had barely gotten started. Maybe it was the world economic depression in full swing, with music being used as a Dow Jones-like indicator of disappointment and anxiety. At any rate, the Fourth is on a war footing. The first movement is a battle zone; the second a wrecked and empty landscape; the third a grim march.

The Philharmonic came alive for the performance, with a fierce unanimity in rapid string passages and great subtlety from winds and brass. Mr. Davis, a regular visitor who does this orchestra a lot of good, is also a patriot, and rarely leaves home without some kind of British music under his arm.

The first half of the program was Beethoven: the second “Leonore” Overture and the Fourth Piano Concerto with Richard Goode. If the “Leonore” performance sounded blunt and businesslike, tough but honest may be a fair appraisal of the piece. Hearts began to melt in the concerto accompaniments, written with the uncharacteristic softness and amiability that sometimes came over Beethoven’s soul.

Among Mr. Goode’s virtues was a willingness to toy with several tempos while giving the impression that only one was in play. The first movement in particular was a study in surge and subsidence, and Mr. Davis, who has been bird-dogging soloists for a very long time, was never left behind.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: -abe- on April 05, 2008, 05:06:07 PM
Perhaps I'm alone in this, but "creepy and bone chilling" are not the first words that immediately spring to mind upon listening to LvB's Choral Symphony .......

Which recording were you listening to?
I have three well regarded recordings, and there is something positively creepy about this symphony, especially the first two movements.  :-*
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2008, 05:13:21 PM
While I probably wouldn't use the same adjectives, I do understand what you mean. Perhaps it is the hunting around for a tonal center, the suspense of not knowing what key you are in precisely, which can affect you even if you aren't really a key seeking person, and bother you quite a bit if you are!  Not sure the 2nd movement does that so much, but the 1st movement? Yes, it's a wonderful part of the tapestry. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to: Ronald Brautigam - Mozart Vol.2 - K 284 Sonata #6 in D 3rd mvmt - Theme and Variations
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on April 05, 2008, 05:16:44 PM
 I suppose the 4th movement of the Furtwangler does have a creepy intensity at times.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 10, 2008, 02:22:06 PM

From The Times
April 11, 2008

Nigel Kennedy: Beethoven/Mozart
Geoff Brown


The weather might be bonkers, but at least this spring we have Nigel Kennedy. A few weeks back, this mature bovver boy, 51 at the last count, had a Festival Hall audience agog over his performance of the Elgar violin concerto. And all because of his playing’s five-star splendour, not his personal antics. Now, on CD, jaws can drop a second time over this splendid account of a greater concerto still: Beethoven’s.

On violin tone alone, Kennedy’s account with his Polish Chamber Orchestra is exceptional. Vibrato is cut right back; throughout he aims for a clean line, not some rhapsodic meander. The epic first movement unfolds with an unusually firm sense of purpose; every detail of attack, stress and phrasing is freshly considered by soloist and orchestra (directed by Kennedy when his hands are free). In the introduction, note the crisp articulation of the orchestra’s four repeated notes; Kennedy makes those notes the work’s motto.

The peak is climbed in the slow movement. The tempo’s expansive spread may blur the structure slightly, but when Nigel’s trilling like an angel and offering sensational pianissimos I stand in awe. Be careful when listening to this: you may forget to breathe.  For the finale, Kennedy starts by veiling his tone; then up he leaps, all silvery sparkle. Beautiful playing throughout, but no preening or mincing: this is a performance to revisit time and again.    (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/cd_reviews/article3721930.ece)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 14, 2008, 03:34:29 PM


'I became obsessed with Beethoven's obsession'

'Smitten' by the 'Diabelli Variations,' Moisés Kaufman 'knew I wanted to write a play' (Guess what opens in La Jolla tonight?)
By Valerie Scher
UNION-TRIBUNE CLASSICAL MUSIC CRITIC

April 13, 2008
HOWARD LIPIN / Union-Tribune

After attending a play one night, the prominent playwright-director Moisés Kaufman visited a Manhattan record store, looking for a CD to add to his extensive classical music collection. The clerk suggested Beethoven's “Diabelli Variations,” a masterwork Kaufman knew little about. So the clerk explained how Beethoven became obsessed with an insignificant little waltz by the music publisher Anton Diabelli. And after initially refusing to compose a variation, as Diabelli had requested, Beethoven changed his mind and composed what turned out to be one of the greatest sets of variations ever written.  “As soon as he told me the story, I was smitten,” recalls Kaufman, who purchased Alfred Brendel's highly-regarded recording. “Why did Beethoven write the variations? That's the question that gnawed at me. I knew I wanted to write a play.”

The result is “33 Variations,” which launches its first West Coast engagement tonight at La Jolla Playhouse. Blending mystery and musicology, “Variations” premiered last year at the Arena Stage in Washington, D.C. It recently received the 2008 Harold and Mimi Steinberg/American Theatre Critics Association New Play Award, which included a $25,000 cash prize – the largest national playwriting award.

Kaufman is not alone in his fascination with Beethoven. Hershey Felder's “Beethoven, As I Knew Him” comes to the Old Globe next month and in June, the 2008 Mainly Mozart Festival opens with a program showcasing all five of the composer's piano concertos. The San Diego Symphony is also getting into the act, with a Beethoven Festival slated for next season.

“33 Variations” – which consists of 33 scenes – isn't meant to be a biography of the composer. Or an analysis of his score, which was completed in 1823.

Instead, it's a play with music. Pianist Diane Walsh will perform about two-thirds of the variations, with projections of Beethoven's manuscript serving as a backdrop.



 (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/features/20080413-9999-1a13play.html)

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2008, 03:06:43 AM
LvB's Fifth Symphony arranged for solo piano:

1st mvt http://www.youtube.com/v/yKrbvB6ITks

Performed by Frederic Chiu  (http://www.fredericchiu.com/Frederic%20Chiu%20Official%20Website/Biography_files/241630-R2-36A.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2008, 03:07:03 AM
Pollini plays the Diabelli's variations by Beethoven


Fuga and last variation http://www.youtube.com/v/AMbyH8AyAGU
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2008, 03:16:53 AM


New York Times

April 18, 2008
Music Review | Andras Schiff
Deconstructing Beethoven, One Piano Sonata at a Time
By ALLAN KOZINN

Andras Schiff is playing Beethoven’s 32 piano sonatas at Carnegie Hall, and he’s taking his time: his traversal began with two concerts in October and resumed on Wednesday night. After a fourth installment on Friday, the series picks up with four similarly spaced concerts next season. The exigencies of touring (for Mr. Schiff) and concert marketing (for Carnegie Hall) dictate their own logic, but it’s a pity the concerts were not in closer succession. Mr. Schiff is presenting the works mostly in the order Beethoven composed them, rather than the order in which they were published (and consequently numbered).

If the point is to show Beethoven’s development, spreading the concerts over two full seasons works against it. That said, Mr. Schiff hasn’t adhered strictly to the chronology. His concert on Wednesday examined works composed between 1795 and 1800, and should therefore have included the “Pathétique” Sonata, composed in 1798. But the “Pathétique” closed Mr. Schiff’s second concert, in October. As the evolution of Beethoven’s style goes, that makes a difference, and in a lengthy interview in the program Mr. Schiff gave no reason for this displacement.  He began this time with the Opus 49 Sonatas, a pair of early works belatedly published in 1805 as Nos. 19 and 20. They appear as the 9th and 10th Sonatas in Mr. Schiff’s reordering, and in that sequence they tell us a lot. Each work makes a sharp distinction between melody and accompaniment, in ways Beethoven’s later works do not, a point Mr. Schiff emphasized in his cogent, vital readings by giving the innocently straightforward top lines a bright, ringing tone, and keeping the left-hand figuration subdued, if not quite muffled.

In the two Opus 14 Sonatas (1798 and 1799), as in the “Pathétique” (Op. 13), theme, accompaniment and decorative figuration are woven inextricably into a single texture. The most striking quality of Mr. Schiff’s playing here was its transparency: it gave you a fine-grain look at the intricacy of Beethoven’s structures but kept the bigger picture in crystalline focus. He made some unusual tempo choices. The Allegretto of the E major Sonata seemed peculiarly slow. But mostly Mr. Schiff adopted the brisk, driven tempos and sharp articulation favored by Beethoven players (and listeners) these days. After the intermission Mr. Schiff gave a luminous account of the Sonata No. 11 in B flat (Op. 22), with a magnificently ruminative, songlike slow movement at its heart. As an encore, he played Bach’s Partita in B flat (BWV 825) complete.

 (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/18/arts/music/18Schi.html?ref=arts)



By the Book


By FRED KIRSHNIT
April 18, 2008

 
Hungarian pianist András Schiff was back at Carnegie Hall on Wednesday evening, continuing his three-year series presenting the 32 sonatas of Ludwig van Beethoven. (http://www2.nysun.com/article/74958)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 18, 2008, 03:17:53 AM


Beethoven: Symphony No 7; Music by Weber, Rossini and Wilms, Budapest Festival Orch/ Fischer

(http://image.guardian.co.uk/stars/guardian5.gif)

Tim Ashley
Friday April 18, 2008
The Guardian


"What would it have been like to hear Beethoven's Seventh Symphony at the first performance?" Iván Fischer asks in a sleeve note. His aim, in this instance, is not to recreate the 1813 concert that included the symphony's premiere, but to emphasise its revolutionary nature by placing it alongside less extreme music written contemporaneously. In some respects, he is overcalculating in making his case. The additional pieces - the adagio from Weber's Clarinet Concerto, the overture to Rossini's opera L'Italiana in Algeri and the banal finale of the Fourth Symphony by the obscure Johann Wilhelm Wilms - are extracts rather than complete works, the point being that Beethoven exploits their stylistic traits more radically in the Symphony itself. As a totality, the disc is consequently bitty, but the performance of the Seventh ranks, without question, among the greatest ever recorded. With the Budapest Festival Orchestra playing as if their lives depended on it, it's superbly articulated, thrillingly elated and emotionally exhausting. Weber, on first hearing the work, wondered whether its composer was insane, and for once you understand why. Utterly compelling.   (http://arts.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/story/0,,2274138,00.html)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on April 18, 2008, 03:48:45 AM
Dmitri, I appreciate your Beethoven 'cuttings' very much!  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 18, 2008, 04:26:03 AM
but the performance of the Seventh ranks, without question, among the greatest ever recorded. With the Budapest Festival Orchestra playing as if their lives depended on it, it's superbly articulated, thrillingly elated and emotionally exhausting. Weber, on first hearing the work, wondered whether its composer was insane, and for once you understand why. Utterly compelling.

I always love this "without question" stuff, as if nobody should have the temerity to disagree, and if you do, you're proving yourself lacking in taste or discernment. I've heard some pretty wretched performances (not to mention compositions) that "reviewers" have told me are "without question among the greatest."  :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on April 18, 2008, 04:56:02 AM
I always love this "without question" stuff, as if nobody should have the temerity to disagree, and if you do, you're proving yourself lacking in taste or discernment. I've heard some pretty wretched performances (not to mention compositions) that "reviewers" have told me are "without question among the greatest."  :D

The second movement of the 7th is so me.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 18, 2008, 04:11:43 PM
The second movement of the 7th is so me.

And the 1st, 3rd, and 4th besides. But those are truly without question among the greatest.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Kullervo on April 18, 2008, 04:18:57 PM
The intro to the 1st movement never fails to make me take a deep breath.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on April 18, 2008, 04:29:01 PM
His aim, in this instance, is not to recreate the 1813 concert that included the symphony's premiere, but to emphasise its revolutionary nature by placing it alongside less extreme music written contemporaneously.

What an idiotic program concept for a disc. As if we didn't alrready know that.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 20, 2008, 04:57:54 AM
Beethoven: Piano Concerto No 1 & 2 / Bronfman, Zinman

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/97/973026.jpg)

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/p10s10.gif)

The period-instrument movement has accomplished some wonderful things, not least of which has been the improvement of performances that aren't on period instruments. *** while David Zinman's Beethoven symphony cycle with these forces was underwhelming, his concertos have been just the opposite. The same qualities of lightness, elegance, and speed that underplayed the symphonic drama of those works permit a splendidly integrated, witty, and emotionally affecting interplay between solo and orchestra. This is true not just of the slow movements, whose lyricism never turns sweaty, but also the finales, where the catchy syncopated rhythms and quicksilver phrasing from both Bronfman and Zinman make these two "learning works" a delight--nowhere more so than in the early Second concerto (which predates the First). Seldom has this work's first movement sounded freer and shapelier, less like Mozart on steroids. These performances are every bit as winning as those on the companion disc of Concertos Nos. 4 and 5, and I can hardly wait to hear No. 3. Yes, they are "of a type", one fully in keeping with today's tastes and theories about how this music should sound--but of that type they stand with the best. Terrific sound too.

--David Hurwitz, ClassicsToday.com
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on April 20, 2008, 08:24:39 AM
--David Hurwitz, ClassicsToday.com

Thanks for making that so big and red, like a warning label. So I didn't waste my time reading that review.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on April 20, 2008, 08:43:36 AM
Thanks for making that so big and red, like a warning label. So I didn't waste my time reading that review.




Ditto. Big Dave "yay" (translated "yawn").
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 21, 2008, 05:33:49 AM
For all Tan/Norrington fans:

This ($14.95): (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/7b/5b/5d3ec6da8da0a302b1152110.L.jpg)

Is being re-released as this ($27.95): (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/210/2107205.jpg)

This is a HIP performance on fortepiano ........... Phone the neighbors and wake the kids folks .......

 Customer Reviews can be found by clicking HERE  (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Concertos-Norrington-Classical-Players/dp/B000090WCD)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 21, 2008, 08:36:49 AM


Sibelius: Pelléas and Mélisande,Violin Concerto; Beethoven: Symphony No.6 'Pastorale'
Gidon Kremer, Russian National Orchestra/Mikhail Pletnev
Festpielhaus Baden-Baden, 21 April 2008

(http://www.musicalcriticism.com/concerts/baden-rno-pletnev.jpg)

It would take the multilingual erudition as a master of musical aesthetics of a Gidon Kremer or a Mikhail Pletnev, turning his visions into magic performances as a virtuoso and conductor, adequately to find words to describe this concert. These two stars, so unwilling to play the role of stars, joined forces to present Sibelius at his most inward-looking and Beethoven's 'Pastorale' with a new glow of gentle humanity. This humble reviewer can only bow in gratitude for such an unforgettable experience.

The full orchestral suite Pelléas and Mélisande by Sibelius is rarely included in the repertory of great orchestras. A pity, because it contains the essence of the brooding melancholy of this composer, coupled with meltingly romantic themes, without being burdened with his often ponderous longeurs. Its brilliant orchestration allowed all the principals of the Russian National Orchestra to demonstrate a delicacy and deep emotional involvement, without being egged on by a meddling Kapellmeister.

Indeed, the work of Mikhail Pletnev - who founded this orchestra almost 20 years ago without any help from the Soviet government at that time still wallowing in its Breshnevian stupour - all seems to get done before the performances. His vision, his radical removal of the barnacles attached by tradition to the conventional interpretations of his large repertoire, is firmly implanted on every member of his orchestra. Because the orchestra is exclusively privately funded and assisted by foundations located in the USA and the UK, it employs in all sections the finest talents now available in Russia, without interference from vested interests of the old guard. Perhaps as many as two thirds of the members are in their twenties or early thirties and Pletnev needs not cajole or drive them by ostentatious body language to produce a superbly homogenous sound: supple and eloquent in its winds, robust and brazen in its brass sections, and virtuosic throughout its strings. Their two principal cellists are amongst the few more mature members, one of them looking remarkably like a formally dressed Misha Maisky; their playing, beautifully co-ordinated and constantly fully engaged, was a pleasure to watch. Even their timpanist rose somtimes in ferocious temper or subtly caressed his instruments. I cannot recall a more beautifully performed horn solo in the dangerously exposed allegro of the 'Pastorale' - only one of many memorable solos from all sections.

In all three works on the programme, there were many opportunities to show how a full-blown orchestral sound can be both majestic and warmly burnished, or how the musicians were able subtely to tiptoe their way through the intricate scoring of the the allegro of the 'Pastorale'. Pletnev is well known to eschew all star-like superficialities. His elbows are mostly kept near his body and he conducts with minute flicks of his baton, just turning to the sections he wants to be heard more prominently. In solo passages, or even in fast tutti sections, he often stops using his baton altogether and allows complete freedom to the orchestra. In accompanying Gidon Kremer in Sibelius's Violin Concerto, he totally accommodated Kremer's intimate vision and scaled down the orchestral outburts to match the soloist's deeply private conception of the piece.

I happen to have played as a student in the orchestra accompanying a brave and very talented masterclass student of Jeno Hubay daring to play the Sibelius, a mere twenty years after it was first performed and long before Heifetz established the yardsticks by which peformances are still measured. In those years, the technical difficulties could be mastered only by very few performers and at speeds that by today's standards seem sluggish. Even Ferenc Vecsey, the dedicatee of the concerto, whose career as the leading virtuoso of the age was cut short by his early death, could not adequately cope with the extraodinary technical demands of the work.

For Kremer, and for so many of the superb virtuosos of our age, technical difficulties do not seem to matter any longer. Yet Kremer brings to this work an almost philosophical detachment, away from the superficial glories of the concerto he makes it a vehicle of an intimate confession, hardly allowed to be shared by an audience. The very first bars are played with an ethereal and melancholy gentleness that leaves its mark on the rest. In the last movement Kremer displayed a virtuosity that ennobled the mere fireworks of harmonic doublestops, acrobatic leaps, upbow crossstrings, spiccato runs - and all this at a bracingly pulsating tempo. At one point near then end, his E string broke under his strident bowing. Without a moment's hesitation, he picked up the violin of the player sitting just behind him, and continued to play the fiendish passages as if nothing had happened.

Beethoven's Sixth is perhaps the best loved of his symphonies, but in the course of 200 years it has become corseted into traditions which even great interpreters hesitate to ignore. Pletnev has the stature to do so. The very first twelve bars are phrased and played at speeds that are utterly new and, to me, were a revelation. We've all heard this work innumerable times and all interprations seem to have differed only in minute details, depending on the brilliance or lack of it of the performing orchestras. Pletnev challenged all this. His recent recordings of all the nine Beethoven symphonies with his orchestra are acknowledged by critics as opening our ears to entirely new aspects and motivations of these works. It was this diversity, this searching and finding completely new subtleties in phrasing, counterpoint and colours of orchestration, that made me sit up in wonderment and delight.  

I must be forgiven for perhaps being overenthusiastic about a mere orchestral concert. However, there was more in this for me than just a an enjoyable way of passing an evening. I learnt, towards the end of my own; musical life, that we must not take traditional interpretations for granted and when we put ourselves in the hands of masters like a Mikhail Pletnev or a Gidon Kremer, an entire new world can yet open in our jaded ears.
 (http://www.musicalcriticism.com/concerts/baden-rno-pletnev-0408.shtml)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on April 21, 2008, 08:48:44 AM
Re Pletnev: I like this comment from an Amazon reviewer:

Quote
I agree with the first reviewer. One's reaction to this set can only be love it or hate it. I've yet to decide.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2008, 08:54:50 AM
For all Tan/Norrington fans:

This ($14.95): (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/7b/5b/5d3ec6da8da0a302b1152110.L.jpg)

Is being re-released as this ($27.95): (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/210/2107205.jpg)

This is a HIP performance on fortepiano ........... Phone the neighbors and wake the kids folks .......

 Customer Reviews can be found by clicking HERE  (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Concertos-Norrington-Classical-Players/dp/B000090WCD)

Thanks, d, I had held up buying it because it was too inexpensive. I guess I can put it on my list now... ::)   :D

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on April 21, 2008, 08:59:36 AM
Thanks, d, I had held up buying it because it was too inexpensive. I guess I can put it on my list now...

I'm still waiting for the price to go even higher. Why should I pay so little?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on April 21, 2008, 10:09:16 AM
Re Pletnev: I like this comment from an Amazon reviewer:
 

I know I love his work. 8)

Edit: And his pianism, too.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 21, 2008, 10:36:35 AM
For all Tan/Norrington fans:
Is being re-released as this ($27.95): (http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/210/2107205.jpg)

€11.99 ($19) from JPC:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/7246009?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist


Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on April 21, 2008, 11:29:57 AM
For all Tan/Norrington fans

I wouldn't call myself a Norrington "fan", but I have always found his contributions very interesting and often stimulating. Not this, though. This is pretty much like the cliche of HIP, somebody banging around on a wiry sounding keyboard without much musical character or value. If you want to hear these concertos played on "period" instruments, I would recommend listening to Robert Levine's recordings with the ORR/Gardiner - while I don't find Gardiner's recordings of the symphonies all that interesting, Levin is a fantastic pianist and a true expert of the classical style, and Gardiner provides good accompaniment to him here.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 22, 2008, 07:21:44 AM
Piano Trios - No. 5 in D, Op. 70/1, 'Ghost';No. 6 in E flat, Op. 70/2;No. 9 in B flat, WoO39
Florestan Trio(Susan Tomes pf,Anthony Marwood vn,Richard Lester vc)
Hyperion New CD     CDA67327 (60 minutes : DDD)

(http://www.gramophone.co.uk/cdcovers/034571173276.jpg)

Gramophone
 
A vital first instalment in the Florestan’s urgent new cycle of Beethoven Piano Trios

Here’s a recording that immediately, from the first, impetuous bars of Op 70 No 1, feels just right. In this movement the Florestan makes the long second repeat, but there’s such a sense of momentum that no one could find it too extended or repetitious. Indeed, the reiterated chords that precede the lead-back reignite our concentration with their air of tense mystery. And when we reach this point for the second time, the G major harmony at the start of the coda has a wonderful, dense tranquillity. The famous ‘Ghost’ movement creates a powerful, chilling effect, with stark, senza vibrato string tone and the extraordinary writing in the piano’s deep bass register exploited by Susan Tomes with superb control and sensitivity. Beethoven’s thick, growling left-hand parts can be problematic, but Tomes always manages to produce a strong effect – fierce and abrupt in the second movement of Op 70 No2, rich and warm in the following Allegretto – without ever sounding overpowering or ugly.

The E flat Trio is something of a Cinderella work, but the Florestan performance helps us to see it as a major achievement of Beethoven’s middle period. I love the way that, though they are a thoughtful, highly-controlled group, there’s room for moments of the most intense expression, as when, in the opening Allegro, Anthony Marwood leads the upward sequence that starts the development to such a passionate climax. And the finale, one of Beethoven’s most prodigiously inventive pieces, has in this performance a feeling of uninhibited enjoyment. The recorded sound and balance is up to Hyperion’s usual high standard.
 
Duncan Druce
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on April 22, 2008, 07:26:52 AM
Gramophone likes a recording from a British label. Imagine that.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Don on April 22, 2008, 07:42:11 AM
Gramophone likes a recording from a British label. Imagine that.

Fanfare Magazine also praised the recordings.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on April 22, 2008, 07:42:56 AM
Fanfare Magazine also praised the recordings.

Well, that's okay then.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on April 22, 2008, 08:03:33 AM
Gramophone likes a recording from a British label. Imagine that.

Hyperion isn't "a British label", though. It's among the British labels.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on April 22, 2008, 08:04:53 AM
Hyperion isn't "a British label", though. It's among the British labels.

 ::)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on April 22, 2008, 10:18:41 AM
::)

I mean to say, it's not ye olde random British label that's never published anything good...

There are a lot of very outstanding Hyperion discs around, so they do have a certain standard. :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on April 22, 2008, 10:22:11 AM
I mean to say, it's not ye olde random British label that's never published anything good...

There are a lot of very outstanding Hyperion discs around, so they do have a certain standard. :)

You are correct, but I wouldn't read Gramophone to find out which ones are good.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on April 22, 2008, 10:34:44 AM
You are correct, but I wouldn't read Gramophone to find out which ones are good.

That is another story. ;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on April 22, 2008, 11:48:38 AM
I happen to have played as a student in the orchestra accompanying a brave and very talented masterclass student of Jeno Hubay daring to play the Sibelius, a mere twenty years after it was first performed

Huh? The violin concerto was premiered in 1903, the revised version in 1905. How old is that reviewer?


Beethoven's Sixth is perhaps the best loved of his symphonies, but in the course of 200 years it has become corseted into traditions which even great interpreters hesitate to ignore. Pletnev has the stature to do so. The very first twelve bars are phrased and played at speeds that are utterly new and, to me, were a revelation. We've all heard this work innumerable times and all interprations seem to have differed only in minute details, depending on the brilliance or lack of it of the performing orchestras. Pletnev challenged all this. His recent recordings of all the nine Beethoven symphonies with his orchestra are acknowledged by critics as opening our ears to entirely new aspects and motivations of these works.

Complete nonsense. The stylistic spectrum of Beethoven interpretation is *vast*, there are so many different stylistic approaches to performing his symphonies in particular, and the whole "HIP" thing has started challenging all of the - very diverse - traditional schools of interpretation decades ago which has resulted in an even wider and more complex spectrum of performance styles. Since that reviewer is apparently over 100 years old, where has he been in the last 50 years? Or has he gone deaf 50 years ago? A very strange contribution - just like Pletnev's Beethoven recordings which aren't "challenging" - they are just random and nonsensical.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: edward on April 22, 2008, 11:51:30 AM
Huh? The violin concerto was premiered in 1903, the revised version in 1905. How old is that reviewer?
If you follow the link, he was born in 1913 and studied cello at the Franz Liszt Academy in Budapest.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 26, 2008, 07:44:58 AM

NYT, April 26, 2008, MUSIC REVIEW, Andsnes's Beethoven
(http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/arts/music/26leif.html?_r=1&ref=arts&oref=slogin)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 26, 2008, 07:46:59 AM
 Music DVD Review: Beethoven Symphony No. 9 and Concert in Honor of Pope Benedict XVI  (http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/04/26/071253.php)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on April 26, 2008, 07:59:35 AM
I have that Karajan 9th (naturally ;D), and I can whole-heartedly second Mr. Bailey's enthusiasm. Though I admittedly found the sound to be rather more rough than he makes it sound like it is...

Still, it's probably the best Karajan Beethoven 9th on video, this one! :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on April 29, 2008, 04:31:34 PM
Sokolov / Diabelli

(audio excerpt only) http://www.youtube.com/v/doHezRZZTS0

"Sokolov is for many the greatest pianist alive today. ... Sokolov is a pianistic Dostoyevsky, his music-making vast in scope, visionary and revelatory, squeezing out every last drop of meaning."

—International Piano, Sept. 2006
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on April 29, 2008, 05:19:58 PM
That was great, thanks!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on May 03, 2008, 09:47:46 AM
 Music Review: Franz Liszt and the Beethoven Symphonies

 (http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/05/03/122812.php)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on May 03, 2008, 09:48:45 AM

Symphony No. 9 in D minor Op. 125 arr. for two pianos by Franz Liszt
Leon McCawley, Ashley Wass (pianos) Naxos- 8.570466(CD)

(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11629_coverpic.jpg)

(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/sp_art/p10s9.gif)

"Highly recommended."

     --Jed Distler
(http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11629)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on May 09, 2008, 02:37:06 AM
 Classical music reviews | A big, Brilliant Beethoven box set  (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/musicnightlife/2004396594_cdreviews07.html)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Haffner on May 09, 2008, 11:39:58 AM


Classical music reviews | A big, Brilliant Beethoven box set
By Melinda Bargreen

Seattle Times music critic

* * *

In the "ups" category: the string quartets, those revered Beethoven works, performed by the always-excellent Guarneri Quartet; the terrific Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra (led by Kurt Masur) for the symphonies; Henryk Szeryng and the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra (with Bernard Haitink) in the Violin Concerto; and welcome appearances and collaborations.

On the "downs" side: Pianist Friedrich Gulda does not make my heart beat faster in the choice piano sonatas and concertos (even with the Vienna Philharmonic backing him up in the latter). How anyone could make these fiery, colorful works sound matter-of-fact is a source of amazement (compare them with, say, Seattle's Craig Sheppard and his pulse-pounding traversals of the sonatas). And some of those valuable historic recordings, like the Grumiaux/Haskil violin sonatas, are wonderful artistic statements but old enough that the remastered sound takes some getting used to.

But there's one final huge plus: You can buy the entire set on Amazon.com for around $126 (it's listed at $139.98). It's an incredible buy, one that will keep Beethoven fans happily engaged for a long time.

(http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/musicnightlife/2004396594_cdreviews07.html)



One tiny quibble. The Guarneri Quartet may always be "great" but don't buy those Mozart's Haydn SQs box they put out. It may be mostly the recording (the strings sound like cheap Casio synths), but in particular the A quartet sounds pretty butchered.

Otherwise, thanks for this really interesting post, Dmitri!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on May 09, 2008, 01:54:31 PM


Classical music reviews | A big, Brilliant Beethoven box set
By Melinda Bargreen

Seattle Times music critic

* * *



On the "downs" side: Pianist Friedrich Gulda does not make my heart beat faster in the choice piano sonatas and concertos (even with the Vienna Philharmonic backing him up in the latter). How anyone could make these fiery, colorful works sound matter-of-fact is a source of amazement (compare them with, say, Seattle's Craig Sheppard and his pulse-pounding traversals of the sonatas). And some of those valuable historic recordings, like the Grumiaux/Haskil violin sonatas, are wonderful artistic statements but old enough that the remastered sound takes some getting used to.


(http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/musicnightlife/2004396594_cdreviews07.html)
Hmm, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you can tell this one came right out of petty parochialism. Gulda's crystal clear, lucid Beethoven is a cycle for the ages. Shame on the reviewer.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: marvinbrown on May 10, 2008, 07:51:06 AM
Hmm, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you can tell this one came right out of petty parochialism. Gulda's crystal clear, lucid Beethoven is a cycle for the ages. Shame on the reviewer.

  If you are referring to the sonatas I agree.  Gulda's recording on Brilliant is just that............ Brilliant!

  marvin
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on May 11, 2008, 05:22:24 AM
  If you are referring to the sonatas I agree.  Gulda's recording on Brilliant is just that............ Brilliant!

  marvin

Indeed, and obviously Melinda isn't.
 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: op.110 on May 19, 2008, 07:14:39 PM
Being a Beethoven post, I though I would add that Perahia's recording of The Emperor (Bernard Haitink and the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestrais) is a marvelous recording; I just discovered this recording a couple of days ago. Nothing overdone, and the recording holds just the right amount of dynamic contrast, beauty, and power. Not an exciting recording of the piece (it's very straightforward), and he won't ever blow your mind away at any point in the recording, but then again, that's Perahia for you, and that's what makes the recording so unique and great.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on May 20, 2008, 03:04:00 AM
Hmm, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you can tell this one came right out of petty parochialism. Gulda's crystal clear, lucid Beethoven is a cycle for the ages. Shame on the reviewer.

But did you compare them with, say, Seattle's Craig Sheppard and his pulse-pounding traversals of the sonatas?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on June 22, 2008, 03:00:15 AM
Hammerklavier, Beethoven Sonata n. 29, by Brendel. (1/6)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0hAd2rSV20&feature=related
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on June 22, 2008, 03:00:40 AM
Wilhelm Kempff plays Beethoven's "Waldstein" sonata, mvt. 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9RCjXAO5e4
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on June 22, 2008, 05:08:02 AM
LvB PC 4

Paul Badura-Skoda Beethoven PC No.4 on Period Instruments (fortepiano) Conrad Graf 1820

mvt 1 1/2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXMhVYPpwBY&feature=related

mvt 1 2/2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vde6cUPMUu4

3/5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTkblCgN6Pk&feature=related

4/5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu8lNwOkfcM&feature=related

5/5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHawFEXjow4&feature=related
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 22, 2008, 07:14:26 AM
But did you compare them with, say, Seattle's Craig Sheppard and his pulse-pounding traversals of the sonatas?
I never like pulse-pounding in these works...I like the likes of Goode, Frank, Gulda. Everntually I will get to Sheppard and see what his "pulse-pounding" is all about.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on June 22, 2008, 11:07:57 AM
I never like pulse-pounding in these works...I like the likes of Goode, Frank, Gulda. Everntually I will get to Sheppard and see what his "pulse-pounding" is all about.
He is "pulse-pounding" because he, like the critic who wrote that article for the Seattle Times, is from Seattle.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 15, 2008, 10:43:32 AM
Beethoven: The Consecration of the House overture -- Hungarian Philharmonic Orchestra; Zoltán Kocsis

http://www.youtube.com/v/y8ykmhb71gc

Once you get beyond the first two minutes, it's a damn good overture ..........
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 16, 2008, 03:08:30 AM
ARGERICH, CAPUCON BROS / Triple Concerto 3rd Mvt

finale 1/2 http://www.youtube.com/v/kmxjzBtVi_c

finale 2/2 http://www.youtube.com/v/aTwPUzhAZ20&feature=related

RENAUD CAPUCON (Violin)
GAUTIER CAPUCON (Cello)
MARTHA ARGERICH (Piano)
ALEXANDER RABINOVITCH-BARAKOVSKY (Conductor)
Flanders Symphony Orchestra
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: power on July 16, 2008, 07:40:51 AM
I have a question.  How does the Busch quartet compare with the Budapest quartet on late Beethoven?  I am quite familiar with the Budapest but have never heard the Busch.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Renfield on July 16, 2008, 08:27:40 AM
I have a question.  How does the Busch quartet compare with the Budapest quartet on late Beethoven?  I am quite familiar with the Budapest but have never heard the Busch.

I believe the Busch Quartet are considered nigh-legendary!

I don't have their recently re-released Beethoven late quartets, but the Schubert quartets I do have from them are incredible; historic, in every sense of the word. I don't think you should hesitate, if you don't mind the equally "historic" sound. ;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 20, 2008, 07:54:25 AM
Rudolf Serkin - Beethoven Sonata No. 30, Op. 109  

pt 1 http://www.youtube.com/v/MEeO8uULTKY

pt 2 http://www.youtube.com/v/QC8dobb986s

pt 3 http://www.youtube.com/v/ZYyW7trFLNo




Edited to place caption in purple ..........
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 20, 2008, 09:30:16 AM
LvB PC #5 Pollini / Abbado (1967)
3d mvt http://www.youtube.com/v/dkjRyOz2SZ4&feature=related

2d mvt http://www.youtube.com/v/FlZGJBFvd2g&feature=related
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 20, 2008, 09:32:03 AM
LvB PC 4 Pollini / Abbado (2004)


finale http://www.youtube.com/v/Rs7gkD4Go6Q&feature=related
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 21, 2008, 09:49:38 AM

Diabelli by Pollini

(fragment) http://www.youtube.com/v/AMbyH8AyAGU&feature=related

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 21, 2008, 09:50:40 AM
LvB PC #5 Michelangeli /Giulini

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft-1DRsETJQ&feature=related
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 22, 2008, 05:43:48 AM
To the extent that LvB was influenced by Mozart's D Minor piano concerto, it is helpful to consider performances of this d minor masterpiece.  Ergo ......

Comes now Gulda with the Munich Phil.

1/2 http://www.youtube.com/v/VtTqpqGIIYU

2/2 http://www.youtube.com/v/iF17mzCPq5A&feature=related

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 22, 2008, 05:45:13 AM
Argerich / Mzt d minor PC

1st mvt pt 1 http://www.youtube.com/v/3V9vFJMVtRc

1st mvt pt 2 http://www.youtube.com/v/HOQ6fsUbP4c&feature=related

2d mvt http://www.youtube.com/v/o6H8sUogXqE&feature=related

3d mvt http://www.youtube.com/v/u3iIAj0UHlE&feature=related
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on July 30, 2008, 01:46:24 PM
Corolian Overture, Carlos Kleiber, Bayerisches Staatsorchester (1996)


http://www.youtube.com/v/TqyMx4I4uYU
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 09, 2008, 02:20:24 AM


(http://www.classicstoday.com/images/coverpics/11787_coverpic.jpg)

[click on album to read review] (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11787)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 12, 2008, 02:33:36 AM

The Prokofiev - Beethoven Nexus

http://www.youtube.com/v/sfQb6BKq_ZU

Scythian Suite
Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra / Valery Gergiev

More Scythian Suite: http://www.youtube.com/v/9fdVbOJrLS4
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2008, 06:31:27 PM
Richter plays Sonata No. 27 (op 90)

http://www.youtube.com/v/dxKssdbpOjI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmBXW3N8z6E&feature=related

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2008, 06:34:04 PM
7 Variations on Bei Mannern, welche Liebe Fuhlen

http://www.youtube.com/v/0jRjuZL9hMQ

Dragan Djordjevic and Dusan Egeric play Beethoven's 7 Variations on Bei Mannern, welche Liebe fuhlen from Mozart's Die Zaumberflote, WoO 46.
Belgrade International Cello Fest,
July 5, 2008.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2008, 06:34:54 PM
Richter
http://www.youtube.com/v/5nRuVn4M9wU&feature=related

Sonata No. 18 in E-flat major, op. 31, no. 3
1. Allegro
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2008, 06:35:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/5JwxxQIxL-g

Richter plays Beethoven - Sonata No. 17 in D minor, Opus 31 No. 2 ("The Tempest")
1. Largo - Allegro
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2008, 06:37:06 PM
Radu Lupu -- Tempest
http://www.youtube.com/v/xPm1h0dhfwk

http://www.youtube.com/v/9MGHuRXeEzM

Radu Lupu plays Beethoven (Piano Sonata in D minor n°17 op.31 n°2 "Adagio") on a Piano Borgato, live in Perugia
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 26, 2008, 06:38:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/KrC4P128htY

Ludwig van Beethoven
Piano concerto No. 5
in E flat major -- Es Dur -- op. 73 "Emperor"
III-- Rondo - Allegro. Piú allegro

Emil Gilels -- Э.
(1916 -- 1985)

Cleveland Orchestra
Conductor George Szell -- Дир. Дж. Селл
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: BachQ on August 27, 2008, 05:00:28 PM
Annie Fischer - Beethoven Concerto no 5 "Emperor"

1/4 http://www.youtube.com/v/3csIAHXemy0&feature=related

2/4  http://www.youtube.com/v/bz2DpnNMEq0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/v/zL7Kgx9Jt1U&feature=related

WOW!

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 27, 2008, 05:12:20 PM
Annie Fischer - Beethoven Concerto no 5 "Emperor"

WOW!

But how can that even begin to compare with Arthur Schoonderwoerd?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: M forever on August 28, 2008, 05:51:43 PM
To begin with, she can actually play the pieces.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Mandryka on March 08, 2009, 06:28:02 AM
Does anyone know how I can get hold of Fiorentino's Beethoven cycle ? I have become really curious about this pianist recently.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on March 08, 2009, 07:14:51 AM
Does anyone know how I can get hold of Fiorentino's Beethoven cycle ? I have become really curious about this pianist recently.

I found this info on a discography of LvB sets: (http://www.albany.edu/~rshaf/beethoven32.html)

"Fiorentino, Sergio - 8 CDs released on Concert Artist / Fidelio, recorded 1961-6. Missing only Sonata no.29?"

Sorry, I don't know where you can buy them.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on March 08, 2009, 07:16:28 AM
Just found these reviews of a few CDs of Fiorentino's LvB sonatas -

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/Mar03/Beethoven_PianoSonatas2.htm

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/Mar03/Beethoven_PianoSonatas4.htm
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dr. Dread on March 12, 2009, 06:53:20 AM
Kissin's LvB Concertos are supposed to be veeeeeery romantic. Anyone know?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on March 12, 2009, 06:58:00 AM
Kissin's LvB Concertos are supposed to be veeeeeery romantic. Anyone know?


I have the set, and I don't know if I'd describe it as very romatic.  (I'm not sure how each person would define that anyway.)  On the romantic side of things, I suppose, but also modern and a bit indulgent on Kissin's part.  It's better than I thought it would be, and the 2nd and 5th both beat out his earlier recording.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dr. Dread on March 12, 2009, 07:00:17 AM

I have the set, and I don't know if I'd describe it as very romatic.  (I'm not sure how each person would define that anyway.)  On the romantic side of things, I suppose, but also modern and a bit indulgent on Kissin's part.  It's better than I thought it would be, and the 2nd and 5th both beat out his earlier recording.

Cool. I'm getting it from the library and was wondering. You hear so little about Kissin here on GMG.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on March 12, 2009, 07:11:49 AM
You hear so little about Kissin here on GMG.

Perhaps because a real collector doesn't Kissin and tell? 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 12, 2009, 07:13:14 AM
Well, I can't comment on Kissin in these works, but did just received the 3-CD set below w/ Kuerti, but have not given the discs a listen yet - purchase based on an 'urgent recommendation' by Jerry Dubins in the Mar-Apr '09 issue of Fanfare, and further supported by Scott Morrison's laudatory remarks on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Concerti-Ludwig-van/dp/B001B3L5GS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1236870140&sr=1-1); finally, the re-packaging makes a bargain set @ $13 on the Marketplace!   :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/489660047_jykiy-M.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Dr. Dread on March 12, 2009, 07:14:19 AM
Well, I can't comment on Kissin in these works, but did just received the 3-CD set below w/ Kuerti, but have not given the discs a listen yet - purchase based on an 'urgent recommendation' by Jerry Dubins in the Mar-Apr '09 issue of Fanfare, and further supported by Scott Morrison's laudatory remarks on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Piano-Concerti-Ludwig-van/dp/B001B3L5GS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1236870140&sr=1-1); finally, the re-packaging makes a bargain set @ $13 on the Marketplace!   :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/489660047_jykiy-M.jpg)

Ha! See my post in the consideration of purchase thread.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Todd on March 14, 2009, 07:42:48 PM
Well, I can't comment on Kissin in these works, but did just received the 3-CD set below


That Kuerti set is one of the best things he's recorded (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9060.msg226952.html#msg226952), and bests the Kissin set.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 14, 2009, 07:57:33 PM

That Kuerti set is one of the best things he's recorded (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9060.msg226952.html#msg226952), and bests the Kissin set.

Hi Todd - embarassed that I missed your usual superb review!  :-[  Tomorrow, I'm plannig to listen to this Beethoven cycle and now expect a great experience!  Thanks for the comments - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Guido on October 23, 2009, 01:59:14 AM
The Presto of op.130 is maybe my favourite fast movement in all of Beethoven. So quirky, so original, so imaginative, so mysterious, so charming, so pithy!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on December 16, 2009, 09:19:03 AM
Ashamed I had to go all the way to page 5 to find this thread... no posts in almost 2 months???

Anyways:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, BEETHOVEN!!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on December 16, 2009, 09:27:38 AM
Checks iPod...

Yay! String trios...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Henk on December 16, 2009, 09:30:08 AM
Which Piano Concertos recordings do you recommend? I'm not satisfied with my Haitink / Perahia set.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on December 16, 2009, 10:37:09 AM
Which Piano Concertos recordings do you recommend? I'm not satisfied with my Haitink / Perahia set.

Russell Sherman/Nuemann - (if the slow movement of the 2nd PC is defective, as it is on many copies, have no fear, I've uploaded it to mediafire - http://www.mediafire.com/?a2c40zjmnk4)
At any rate, this set is something special, with great depth of expression and lovely sonics, all at a bargain basement price. Everyone should own this one.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HRME3C/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00005QDI0&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0Y1CP8QY6RPPV7B2164J

OR


Serkin/Kubelik - An old hand plays beautifully and powerfully in superb sound.
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Die-Klavierkonzerte-Chorfantasie-Op/dp/B0009VNCT6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1260988346&sr=1-2
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on December 16, 2009, 10:38:03 AM
Checks iPod...

Yay! String trios...

Very nice, I love the string trios.  Which group/recording?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on December 16, 2009, 10:43:34 AM
Very nice, I love the string trios.  Which group/recording?

Grumiaux Philips Duo thingy...
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 16, 2009, 04:14:28 PM
Very nice, I love the string trios.  Which group/recording?

Ray - I own the 'bargain' 2-CD set on Brilliant w/ the Zurich String Trio; recorded in 2002 - Jerry Dubin's comments quoted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=89410) - may put the first disc on next for our dinner music!  Dave  :D

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vcIu5PB4Qz4/Se2uQnrPXJI/AAAAAAAABMU/Yq7fehXJhew/s320/Beethoven_string_trios_2.jpg)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on December 16, 2009, 06:35:16 PM
Ray - I own the 'bargain' 2-CD set on Brilliant w/ the Zurich String Trio; recorded in 2002 - Jerry Dubin's comments quoted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=89410) - may put the first disc on next for our dinner music!  Dave  :D

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vcIu5PB4Qz4/Se2uQnrPXJI/AAAAAAAABMU/Yq7fehXJhew/s320/Beethoven_string_trios_2.jpg)

That's the one I have too, Dave!  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 16, 2009, 06:49:32 PM
That's the one I have too, Dave!  :)

Ray - LOL!  ;D  Our paths may have crossed on this set before?  For myself, I'm happy w/ this one - Dave  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on December 16, 2009, 06:52:19 PM
Ray - LOL!  ;D  Our paths may have crossed on this set before?  For myself, I'm happy w/ this one - Dave  :)

Yes, I think you're right.  I think you were the one that recommended it to me.  :D  Any fan of Beethoven, or chamber music in general should not forget these works, especially the Opus 9 trios.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brewski on January 22, 2010, 08:16:07 AM
Just got word of this concert in February, which is going to be broadcast live on radio and the Internet on WQXR (http://www.wqxr.org/).

Sunday, February 21, 2010, at 2:00 PM
Carnegie Hall

Orchestra of St. Luke's
Sir Roger Norrington, Conductor
Jessica Rivera, Soprano
Kelley O’Connor, Mezzo-Soprano
Eric Cutler, Tenor
Wayne Tigges, Bass-Baritone
Westminster Symphonic Choir
Joe Miller, Director

Haydn:  Symphony No. 99 in E-flat Major, H.1/99
Beethoven:  Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125 “Choral”

--Bruce
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: dseegs on February 04, 2010, 09:48:30 AM
I'm brand new to classical music in general. I downloaded beethoven's op.1 Piano trios 1-3 great stuff.
Is going through beethoven's opuses in order a good way to explore his compositions or do you think it's better to just jump around to whatever you get your hands on???
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on February 04, 2010, 09:51:02 AM
I'm brand new to classical music in general. I downloaded beethoven's op.1 Piano trios 1-3 great stuff.
Is going through beethoven's opuses in order a good way to explore his compositions or do you think it's better to just jump around to whatever you get your hands on???

Do whatever feels right. If you reach the 1st symphony and really dig it, then go right to the second one. If you start from the beginning and find yourself becoming bored, then maybe jump ahead to a more popular piece.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on February 04, 2010, 09:55:32 AM
I'm brand new to classical music in general. I downloaded beethoven's op.1 Piano trios 1-3 great stuff.
Is going through beethoven's opuses in order a good way to explore his compositions or do you think it's better to just jump around to whatever you get your hands on???

Most, if not all, people tend to jump around, starting in fact with a middle-period or late work. But that is not because it has been found to be an effective method of listening to his music, but more to do with the popularity of his later works. (This is the case with most other famous composers, not just Beethoven.) It would  probably be easier to get your hands on the middle or late works, given that some early ("minor") works might have been recorded only once or twice.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on February 04, 2010, 09:57:26 AM
Do whatever feels right.

Yes, this is what I would also suggest. My earlier post was more like a statement of facts, rather than an opinion.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brahmsian on February 04, 2010, 10:10:02 AM
I'm brand new to classical music in general. I downloaded beethoven's op.1 Piano trios 1-3 great stuff.
Is going through beethoven's opuses in order a good way to explore his compositions or do you think it's better to just jump around to whatever you get your hands on???

Hi dseegs, and welcome aboard!!  As the others have stated, start wherever you like!  For Beethoven, I'll recommend pretty much anything.  If you like the piano and strings combo, try some more trios, or go to the piano concertos (all 5) and piano sonatas (Moonlight, Pathetique, Op.2 or Op.7, Appassionata, etc).
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Lethevich on June 16, 2010, 07:13:31 AM
Do his opus 5 cello sonatas "officially" have two or three movements? I just noticed Wikipedia says that the first two "movements" indexed on many CDs are still technically one, leaving each piece with just two formal movements. This goes against what some CDs say, such as the Schiff ECM, which specifically call the movements I, I and III.

Edit: Ok that made no sense - rewrote it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 16, 2010, 07:28:59 AM
Do his opus 5 cello sonatas "officially" have two or three movements?

Two movements: the first consisting of a slow introduction followed by the Allegro; second movement a Rondo.

Sarge
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Lethevich on June 16, 2010, 07:41:12 AM
Thanks! Thanks seems to be a rare instance of when Wikipedia has been more reliable than record label notes.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 16, 2010, 08:05:32 AM
Yep, Sarge, as is often the case, is right on. I have noticed in passing that ALL of my PI versions call it 2 movements, but some of my modern versions go for 3. Why you would want to separate the introduction off into its own movement is beyond me, especially when it moves on without a pause. :-\

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2010, 10:41:50 AM
A tragi-comedic anecdote from the journal of Louis Spohr.

Beethoven was playing a new piano concerto of his, but already at the first ‘tutti’, forgetting that he was the soloist, he jumped up and began to conduct in his own peculiar fashion. At the first ‘sforzando’ he threw out his arms so wide that he knocked over both the lamps from the music stand of the piano. The audience laughed and Beethoven was so beside himself over this disturbance that he stopped the orchestra and made them start again. Seyfried, worried for fear that this would happen again in the same place, took the precaution of ordering two choir boys to stand next to Beethoven and to hold the lamps in their hands. One of them innocently stepped closer and followed the music from the piano part. But when the fatal ‘sforzando’ burst forth, the poor boy received from Beethoven’s right hand such a sharp slap in the face that, terrified, he dropped the lamp on the floor. The other, more wary boy, who had been anxiously following Beethoven’s movements, succeeded in avoiding the blow by ducking in time. If the audience had laughed the first time, they now indulged in a truly bacchanalian riot. Beethoven broke out in such a fury that when he struck the first chord of the solo he broke six strings. Every effort of the true music-lovers to restore calm and attention remained unavailing for some time; thus the first Allegro of the Concerto was completely lost to the audience. Since this accident, Beethoven wanted to give no more concerts.

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: MN Dave on June 17, 2010, 10:47:39 AM
Damned lamps.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: DavidW on June 17, 2010, 11:45:51 AM
That was freaking hilarious! :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2010, 11:55:45 AM
That was freaking hilarious! :D

Yes, I found it most amusing. BTW, IIRC, it was the 4th Piano Concerto, which I believe was the last piano work that he premiered in public (1808). :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 17, 2010, 12:08:36 PM
A tragi-comedic anecdote from the journal of Louis Spohr.

Beethoven was playing a new piano concerto of his, but already at the first ‘tutti’, forgetting that he was the soloist, he jumped up and began to conduct in his own peculiar fashion. At the first ‘sforzando’ he threw out his arms so wide that he knocked over both the lamps from the music stand of the piano. The audience laughed and Beethoven was so beside himself over this disturbance that he stopped the orchestra and made them start again. Seyfried, worried for fear that this would happen again in the same place, took the precaution of ordering two choir boys to stand next to Beethoven and to hold the lamps in their hands. One of them innocently stepped closer and followed the music from the piano part. But when the fatal ‘sforzando’ burst forth, the poor boy received from Beethoven’s right hand such a sharp slap in the face that, terrified, he dropped the lamp on the floor. The other, more wary boy, who had been anxiously following Beethoven’s movements, succeeded in avoiding the blow by ducking in time. If the audience had laughed the first time, they now indulged in a truly bacchanalian riot. Beethoven broke out in such a fury that when he struck the first chord of the solo he broke six strings. Every effort of the true music-lovers to restore calm and attention remained unavailing for some time; thus the first Allegro of the Concerto was completely lost to the audience. Since this accident, Beethoven wanted to give no more concerts.

8)

That was funny, touchingly pathetic. A great way to demystify some things, to bring them back to a human scale. Thanks, Gurn.  :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2010, 12:15:37 PM
That was funny, touchingly pathetic. A great way to demystify some things, to bring them back to a human scale. Thanks, Gurn.  :)

Yr, welcome, Antoine. There is another story from Spohr about Beethoven's conducting. It doesn't have the tragic aspect that this one had (except that his deafness plays a part), it just makes a funny mental picture. I will find it tonight and type it up. Beethoven was a character all on his own, that's for sure! :)

8)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Franco on June 22, 2010, 07:13:16 AM
Not since the '70s and Walter Murphy's "A Fifth of Beethoven" have I heard something so trite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_sSnLmJN78&feature=email
 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on June 22, 2010, 07:58:36 AM
Not since the '70s and Walter Murphy's "A Fifth of Beethoven" have I heard something so trite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_sSnLmJN78&feature=email

After listening to that, go here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEI_8de-44A) to cleanse your ears.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on June 22, 2010, 08:09:50 AM
After listening to that, go here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEI_8de-44A) to cleanse your ears.

Hey Opus 106,

Is that the 1963 performance?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scarpia on June 22, 2010, 08:13:23 AM
Hey Opus 106,

Is that the 1963 performance?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AROrMIcuL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Was separate from the DG recordings, made for a German television series, I believe.  Sort of a Karajan version of Bernstein's Omnibus appearances.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on June 22, 2010, 08:46:30 AM
Hey Opus 106,

Is that the 1963 performance?

Sorry, George, I have little idea of when it was produced. I'm taking Scarpia's word for this one. :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Bulldog on June 22, 2010, 08:50:54 AM
Not since the '70s and Walter Murphy's "A Fifth of Beethoven" have I heard something so trite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_sSnLmJN78&feature=email

Bad for listening, good for dancing.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on June 22, 2010, 10:31:55 AM
Sorry, George, I have little idea of when it was produced. I'm taking Scarpia's word for this one. :)

Me too. God help us all!  ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scarpia on June 22, 2010, 10:35:13 AM
Me too. God help us all!  ;D

 :'(

BTW, I have the DVD and it is quite interesting.  In addition to complete performances of the two symphonies, there is what appears to be genuine rehearsal footage of the Schumann 4th which is quite interesting.  There is also a sequence where Karajan instructs a young conductor on how to conduct the second movement of Beethoven's 5th, which is also interesting, in a slightly cringeworthy way.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on June 22, 2010, 10:45:40 AM
:'(

 >:D

Quote
BTW, I have the DVD and it is quite interesting.  In addition to complete performances of the two symphonies, there is what appears to be genuine rehearsal footage of the Schumann 4th which is quite interesting.  There is also a sequence where Karajan instructs a young conductor on how to conduct the second movement of Beethoven's 5th, which is also interesting, in a slightly cringeworthy way.

Cool, what year was that 5th performed?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scarpia on June 22, 2010, 10:47:56 AM
>:D

Cool, what year was that 5th performed?

Maybe 1966.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on July 22, 2010, 02:14:34 AM
Posted this yesterday, but a few people told me that they couldn't see the image, so I am reposting, using a new link:

(http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2088/beethoveno.jpg)

Took this photo of the Beethoven monument in Central Park today and figured I'd share it with you guys.

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on July 22, 2010, 03:29:34 AM
Thanks, George. :) Any other classical composers commemorated there?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on July 22, 2010, 06:36:40 AM
Thanks, George. :) Any other classical composers commemorated there?

There are other classical composers?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on July 22, 2010, 06:41:46 AM
There are other classical composers?

Yeah, sure. You should expand your horizons a bit -- listening only to Beethoven sonatas will just not do. :D

;)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: George on July 22, 2010, 07:39:03 AM
Yeah, sure. You should expand your horizons a bit -- listening only to Beethoven sonatas will just not do. :D

;)

Ok, I'll listen to the quartets as well.  :-\

 ;)

Seriously, I haven't noticed any other monuments for composers while out in Central Park.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: kishnevi on July 22, 2010, 11:47:31 AM
Ok, I'll listen to the quartets as well.  :-\

 ;)

Seriously, I haven't noticed any other monuments for composers while out in Central Park.

here's the Wikipedia list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sculptures_in_Central_Park
Victor Herbert has a bust somewhere in the Park, but I don't see any other musical names.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Central_Park_NYC_-_Victor_Herbert_statue_by_Edmund_Thomas_Quinn_-_IMG_5718.JPG/450px-Central_Park_NYC_-_Victor_Herbert_statue_by_Edmund_Thomas_Quinn_-_IMG_5718.JPG)

Verdi has his own square
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdi_Square
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/WTM_NewYorkDolls_049.jpg/450px-WTM_NewYorkDolls_049.jpg)

The Wikipedia illustration is not that great.  Look dead center to see the statute; because of its color  blends with that of the building behind it, it may be hard to see at first.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on August 13, 2010, 07:50:05 AM
Okay, folks, does the finale of Op 18 No 3 sound a LOT like the Mexican Hat Dance, or is it just me?
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2010, 07:58:34 AM
Okay, folks, does the finale of Op 18 No 3 sound a LOT like the Mexican Hat Dance, or is it just me?

Olé!
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Opus106 on September 11, 2010, 11:49:46 AM
Beethoven Fest 2010 Begins.

Official Webstite (http://en.beethovenfest.de/home/) (English)
Portal at DW TV's website (http://www.dw-world.de/beethoven)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on November 01, 2010, 01:52:50 PM
I've recently had occasion to do some in-depth listening to Beethoven's early piano variations, on themes by Haibel, Sussmayr, Salieri, and Wranitzky. The results have really been interesting. It turns out that via careful listening to these pieces we can learn a little bit about how Beethoven learned to use the theme and variations format, and the sort of "tools" he would use to master it. Who are we kidding: the sort of tricks he would use to write the best variations movements ever composed. I'm sure most of the ideas in my essay will be familiar to most readers, but maybe one of them is new.  :D

Here's a link to my MusicWeb essay (in disguise as a review) (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Nov10/Beethoven_Variations_572160.htm) but the relevant section is pasted below.

Quote
Theme-and-variations was arguably the central form of the composer’s career: consider the mighty variation movements in the Third, Fifth, and Ninth symphonies, the piano sonatas opp. 109 and 111, and the monumental Diabelli set. If you are at all fond of those works, you should listen to the early Beethoven variations, for they really do provide great insights into his evolving language and his way of creating something stupendous out of nothing.
 
I say “nothing” because one of the insights on offer here is that Beethoven consciously chose bare, bland, maybe even poor themes for his variations. The Diabelli waltz theme is, in that sense, perfect for Beethoven’s purpose: if you set it alongside Wranitzky’s dull Russian Dance, or Haibel’s genial but forgettable minuet, or (dare I say it) the Eroica tune, you see that they really are all cut from the same cloth; the rhythmic similarity between Diabelli’s theme and Salieri’s is truly striking. The themes are canvases on which Beethoven paints; in fact they are rather cheap canvases from the supermarket chosen in order to demonstrate all the more clearly that the credit belongs solely to the painter.
 
Typical of this style is the Haibel set: immediately, with the first variation, Beethoven leaps into a wholly different mood and style. Not for him the classical-era plan of simply ornamenting the tune with little decorations, then having the left and right hands switch, then altering the melody by one or two notes. Beethoven leaps in at the deep end. Already we can hear his adventurousness and his conception of variations as transformative. This structure will be taken to more profound heights in works like the last piano sonata but even in the 1790s Beethoven was writing “theme and transformations”.
 
The first variation of the Wranitzky set is more conventional, but in exactly five minutes the theme is rendered completely unrecognizable and the work becomes wholly Beethoven’s. And there are vintage Beethoven moments all through these early works, like his habit - to be highlighted in the piano and orchestral Eroica variations - of leaving melodies hanging confidently in midair halfway through, pausing, and then rolling in with the resolutions. The luminous Wranitzky variation at about 3:35 presages some of Beethoven’s transcendent writing in the last sonatas; the fact that Beethoven cannot even wait until Salieri’s theme is over before beginning to toy with it brought a smile to my face. The Salieri set, although a bit monotonous, does introduce the classically Beethovenian idea of bringing back the original theme at the end, subtly transformed.
[...]
For Beethoven lovers and aficionados his early variations are essential listening and have greatly aided me in my listening to his late masterworks in the genre. If you are a casual fan, you may find this music to be of less obvious interest, since so much of it is light, witty, and clever, rather than fiery as the cover might imply. It is not ‘vintage Beethoven’ by any means. But hints of ‘vintage Beethoven’ are to be heard in every work, and that is why real devotees of the composer will find this volume fascinating.

EDIT: oh yeah, and what was this thread doing on Page 6??
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on January 17, 2011, 06:58:09 AM
Listening to Beethoven's string quartet Op 95 "serioso" a few times this month has convinced me that its slow movement, an allegretto in fact, is my personal "model" slow movement. It seems to me to be perfect: an intriguing "hook" to bring the listener into the drama, intensely personal themes, breathtakingly good transitions from one subject to another so that you almost can't tell where sections begin and end, the way the themes are mixed and matched over the course of the work. And it's precisely the right length to say everything it needs to; I listen to it and feel neither like time has been wasted nor like I would have gladly listened to five more minutes. Concise, beautiful, terrificly wrought... for this month (perhaps for this month only), quite possibly my favorite movement of any Beethoven work. :)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 17, 2011, 06:45:49 PM
Theme-and-variations was arguably the central form of the composer’s career: consider the mighty variation movements in the Third, Fifth, and Ninth symphonies, the piano sonatas opp. 109 and 111, and the monumental Diabelli set. If you are at all fond of those works, you should listen to the early Beethoven variations, for they really do provide great insights into his evolving language and his way of creating something stupendous out of nothing.
 
I say “nothing” because one of the insights on offer here is that Beethoven consciously chose bare, bland, maybe even poor themes for his variations.

I'm sorry, dear friend, but I must stop you right there. Undeniably Beethoven's variations sets were among his crowning achievements - and you leave out some of the most striking examples, such as the slow movements of the Kreutzer sonata, the Archduke Trio, and the Quartets opp. 127, 131, and 135. And note that almost always, the Eroica finale and the Diabellis excepted (the latter being a whole world unto itself), these variation sets served as slow movements in larger multi-movement works. For Beethoven variation form was often a vehicle for the highest order of lyricism, and the Diabelli set notwithstanding, Beethoven did not by any means "consciously choose bare, bland, maybe even poor themes" for many of his variation sets. Something like the theme of the variations from op. 127 went through a great deal of revision to bring it to the polish and sense of lyrical spontaneity he eventually achieved.

And since variation form was predominantly an outlet for lyricism in Beethoven, it stands to reason that it cannot alone be the "central form" in Beethoven's career. Composers of instrumental music at this time had perhaps three or four basic templates for developing their work - variation, minuet or scherzo with trio, rondo, and above all sonata form. Sonata form especially is everywhere in Beethoven, and it is rare to find a major work without it (the only example I can think of is the piano sonata in A flat, op. 26). Whereas variation form proceeds as an accumulation of momentum, with each variation preserving the phrase structure of the theme, sonata form provides the greatest opportunities for contrast, conflict, and resolution that I suspect most of us will agree are central to Beethoven's musical personality. And so I think that any claim (even implicit) that sonata form is less "central" than variation is to shortchange an aspect of his musical language that is arguably at least as essential.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scarpia on January 17, 2011, 08:01:34 PM
Theme-and-variations was arguably the central form of the composer’s career

I must agree with Sforzando, this is a silly statement, given the central role of Sonata form is so many of Beethoven's works.  This is not to deny that Beethoven had taken "variations" to levels that were beyond what his immediate predecessors did, but I find Beethoven's Sonata form movements typically contain his most characterist utterances.  I also find your use of the word "vintage" to be puzzling.  Vintage refers to the age of something, not its quality.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 17, 2011, 08:22:33 PM
I also find your use of the word "vintage" to be puzzling.  Vintage refers to the age of something, not its quality.

I'm going to stick up for Brian here. Strictly speaking, you're probably right, but:

Wikipedia:
Vintage, in wine-making, is the process of picking grapes and creating the finished product. A vintage wine is one made from grapes that were all, or primarily, grown and harvested in a single specified year. In certain wines, it can denote quality, as in Port wine, where Port houses make and declare vintage Port in their best years. From this tradition, a common, though incorrect, usage applies the term to any wine that is perceived to be particularly old or of a particularly high quality.

Dictionary.com:
–adjective
7. of or pertaining to wines or winemaking.
8. being of a specified vintage: Vintage wines are usually more expensive than nonvintage wines.
9. representing the high quality of a past time: vintage cars; vintage movies.
10. old-fashioned or obsolete: vintage jokes.
11. being the best of its kind: They praised the play as vintage O'Neill.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scarpia on January 18, 2011, 06:08:57 AM
I'm going to stick up for Brian here. Strictly speaking, you're probably right, but:

Wikipedia:
Vintage, in wine-making, is the process of picking grapes and creating the finished product. A vintage wine is one made from grapes that were all, or primarily, grown and harvested in a single specified year. In certain wines, it can denote quality, as in Port wine, where Port houses make and declare vintage Port in their best years. From this tradition, a common, though incorrect, usage applies the term to any wine that is perceived to be particularly old or of a particularly high quality.

Dictionary.com:
–adjective
7. of or pertaining to wines or winemaking.
8. being of a specified vintage: Vintage wines are usually more expensive than nonvintage wines.
9. representing the high quality of a past time: vintage cars; vintage movies.
10. old-fashioned or obsolete: vintage jokes.
11. being the best of its kind: They praised the play as vintage O'Neill.

I guess in English nothing is incorrect, really. 
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on January 18, 2011, 02:13:40 PM
I'm sorry, dear friend, but I must stop you right there. Undeniably Beethoven's variations sets were among his crowning achievements .... [but] it cannot alone be the "central form" in Beethoven's career. Composers of instrumental music at this time had perhaps three or four basic templates for developing their work - variation, minuet or scherzo with trio, rondo, and above all sonata form. Sonata form especially is everywhere in Beethoven, and it is rare to find a major work without it (the only example I can think of is the piano sonata in A flat, op. 26). Whereas variation form proceeds as an accumulation of momentum, with each variation preserving the phrase structure of the theme, sonata form provides the greatest opportunities for contrast, conflict, and resolution that I suspect most of us will agree are central to Beethoven's musical personality. And so I think that any claim (even implicit) that sonata form is less "central" than variation is to shortchange an aspect of his musical language that is arguably at least as essential.

Of course, this is a very valid argument and pretty much right; however, to split hairs, what I originally intended is slightly different, namely
1. that variations are central to the "musical personality" in the sense that they express uniquely Beethovenian ideas in nearly every instance, and in nearly every instance are conceived and structured in a uniquely Beethovenian way. This breaks down into a number of theses: the form was adopted by Beethoven and given its own unique style; its products seem to drive to the core of the composer's spirit; at many of the most crucial moments in his music he turned to t&v to express what he needed to say.

One gets a powerful sense of the purpose and essence of his music when hearing, for example, the sonata-form Symphony 5 movement i, and his "declaration of independence," as it were, the Eroica, features two sonata forms and a variations movement. What I primarily intended to point out in the review was that the uniquely "Beethovenian" treatment of variations which he exhibited throughout his career was in some ways established very early on, so we can hear characteristics of, say, opp 109/111 in the early unpublished sets. In my defense it might be pointed out here that, in his late period, the variations started popping up nearly everywhere: Opp 107 (a minor work), 109, 111, 120, 125 (finale is a hybrid t&v, too), 127, 131, 135. Excluding Op 107, that's seven or eight, depending on how you count, from the 1820s. Which leads to the second point of my thinking...

2. that variations, as a form, are associated with Beethoven more than anyone else (except Bach?). Probably (you'd be a better judge of this point since my Bach knowledge is weak and I freely drop Beethoven from "more than anyone else" to "Top Three/Five!" if necessary) Bach, Mozart, and Haydn turned to t&v more often, and Brahms regularly triumphed in the form, but Beethoven produced a just startling number of absolutely monumental variation movements. Others before him had incorporated t&v into sonatas, quartets, and symphonies, but I'm not aware of anyone who had written an entire four-movement symphony comprised of elaborate movement-long variations on (settings of?) a single four-note motif, and in my admittedly limited experience am aware of only one similar feat accomplished since.

For Beethoven variation form was often a vehicle for the highest order of lyricism, and the Diabelli set notwithstanding, Beethoven did not by any means "consciously choose bare, bland, maybe even poor themes" for many of his variation sets. Something like the theme of the variations from op. 127 went through a great deal of revision to bring it to the polish and sense of lyrical spontaneity he eventually achieved.

I'd argue that blandness is a trait of the themes by other composers which he chose to vary, were I given the chance to edit my essay to take this point into account. The only original theme I cite as being "chosen" for blandness is the Eroica; I certainly would not want to be calling Op 109 or 127 "boring."

As for "vintage," saying "this is vintage Dvorak" or "vintage Beethoven" or "vintage whomever" has become so standard it's no use avoiding it. Consider (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,220.msg446877.html#msg446877) evidence (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,33.msg441134.html#msg441134) of (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3689.msg436669.html#msg436669) the (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,92.msg391149.html#msg391149) word's (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3196.msg376108.html#msg376108) pervasiveness (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11997.msg295554.html#msg295554) on (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16158.msg407262.html#msg407262) GMG (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,526.msg10898.html#msg10898) alone. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5078.msg122033.html#msg122033)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 19, 2011, 04:58:47 AM
Of course, this is a very valid argument and pretty much right; however, to split hairs, what I originally intended is slightly different. . .

That is a more subtle and credible argument than I had inferred from your original post. Nonetheless, there are a number of points in it that I would question when I get a bit more time this evening.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scarpia on January 19, 2011, 08:58:16 AM
I'm not aware of anyone who had written an entire four-movement symphony comprised of elaborate movement-long variations on (settings of?) a single four-note motif, and in my admittedly limited experience am aware of only one similar feat accomplished since.

Are you talking about the 5th symphony? 

Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on January 19, 2011, 10:50:02 AM
Sforzando - an additional thought I had while walking through the British Library today is that - whether rightfully or out of listener's prejudice - I think of sonata form as a sort of "default" for some of the forms Beethoven inherited: ie, you start a symphony/sonata/quartet with a sonata-form movement, it's one of the top options for the andante/adagio, etc. Beethoven effected huge changes on the sonata form (expansion or deletion of introductions, massive expansion of developments and codas, often greater weight for the third or "outro" theme; perhaps someone can tell me if he was first to insert fugue sections?) as he effected huge changes to the theme and variations form (hence why I call it, somewhat slickly but I think rightly, "theme and transformations") - as well as to how t&v was used, to form the emotional heart of works rather than a diverting demonstration of wit. His predecessors in that vein are Bach, Haydn's keyboard F minor variations, and... I don't know of much of a crowd there.   :-\

I guess the way that this explains my above posts is, I didn't think of sonata form being central because it was also central in the Mozart and Haydn outputs, and indeed Ries, Hummel, Schubert, etc. So it seemed to me that saying sonata form was central would be like saying political freedom is central is to Great Britain - true, of course, but saying more about the well-known efficacy of political freedom than about British taste.

Are you talking about the 5th symphony?

Yes, sir.

di-di-di-DAAAH!  ;D

Yes, sir! (I'm being creepy by quoting a post after mine.)
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: The Diner on January 19, 2011, 10:58:16 AM
di-di-di-DAAAH!  ;D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Scarpia on January 19, 2011, 11:16:54 AM
Yes, sir.

You are stretching it a bit to go from the appearance of a rhythmic motif in the four movements of the symphony to say that the symphony is organized on variations on that motif.   It has an essential role in the first movement, since it is the basis of the principal theme of the movement.  The other four movements have their own themes, in which the rhythmic motif is woven to give a sense of unity.  To characterize the symphony as "variations" on that motif is dramatically overstating things, in my opinion.

On the other hand, in Brahms 3 the I-III-VIII figure that opens the first movement really does pervade the entire work, and your claim about Beethoven's fifth might really describe that piece, IMO.

In my view (which is quite a conventional view, I have to admit) the essence of Beethoven is the way he takes the small motifs from which his themes are built and transforms and collides and juxtaposes them.   I would say the most brilliant thing that happens in Beethoven's fifth is the way the gentle second subject of the first movement takes on the urgency of the first theme in the blazing coda to that movement (ba-ba-ba-baaa's in the accompanying voices not withstanding).  That is the epitome of sonata form development, not theme and variations.  That fact that you can wake up from a nap at any point in Beethoven's fifth and manage to find a ba-ba-ba-baaa somewhere in the orchestral texture is not the most essential thing, IMO.


Title: Beethoven's Ninth Raises Blood Pressure
Post by: Cato on January 19, 2011, 12:05:14 PM
One of my Seventh Graders informed me today that his science-fair project involved measuring blood pressure as a response to different types of music.

30 people were tested.

The opening two minutes of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony raised more people's blood pressure than anything else.   :o

Two minutes of some rock song (I had never heard of it) came in second, followed by two minutes of a country song by Dire Straits.   0:)

Showing little influence on blood pressure was some sort of "cool jazz."   8)

So why did Beethoven's work do this to people?

To be sure: it is a stressful work!

Perhaps they thought they would have to listen to the entire work!   :o
Title: Re: Beethoven's Ninth Raises Blood Pressure
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on January 19, 2011, 12:09:59 PM
Perhaps they were stressed in anticipation of hearing Olbermann next.

Olbermann's Sixth is terrifying.
Title: Re: Beethoven's Ninth Raises Blood Pressure
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 19, 2011, 04:06:50 PM
Olbermann's Sixth is terrifying.

So is Liszt's "Vallee d'Keith Olbermann."
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 19, 2011, 08:02:00 PM
Of course, this is a very valid argument and pretty much right; however, to split hairs, what I originally intended is slightly different,

Just a few observations about Brian’s posts:

The Eroica is in four movements – sonata form, funeral march with trio, scherzo with trio, and variations. Each of these movements, the scherzo perhaps excepted, does something to expand and challenge any received ideas about how these kinds of form could be treated.

I would be interested in how you hear characteristics of 109/111 in the early works.

The slow movement of 132 has to be included in the late variation sets too. It is an ABABA + coda format, where each repetition of the A section is a strict variation in faster note values.

The finale of 125 has some variation sections, primarily the instrumental treatment of the Big Tune before the bass comes in, but I prefer to call it a cantata and leave it at that.

Bach wrote some amazing variations, and besides the Goldbergs there are the organ passacaglia in C minor and the solo violin chaconne in D minor. But although the idea of an extended variation movement did not originate with Bach (there are precedents, for example, in the English 16th-century virginalists like Bull, Byrd, and Farnaby), the Goldberg set was unique in Bach’s output.

I agree with Scarps on the Fifth Symphony. I think the relevance of that opening motif to the rest of the symphony has been considerably overstated, and it’s not correct to say the symphony is a set of four variation movements. (Broadly speaking, they are: sonata form, variations, scherzo with trio, and sonata form.) Besides, when Beethoven writes a set of variations, they generally follow fairly strictly the phrase structure of the theme, though there may be freely structured episodes.

I don’t know what later variation work you’re alluding to. Schubert in the Wanderer Fantasy attempted to base all the movements very loosely on the opening theme of the first movement; Saint-Saens did something similar in his Third Symphony.

The first to insert fugue sections in sonata form? By no means. Think of Mozart’s Jupiter for just the most obvious example.

As for blandness, that depends. Two of the sets of variations for cello/piano are based on themes from Mozart’s Magic Flute. The uniqueness of the Diabelli set is that Beethoven went farther than ever before to develop the motivic potential in the silly and apparently unpromising theme. Individual variations exploit the opening grace note motif, or the repeated chords, or the drop of a perfect fourth. A later variation set like Britten’s Purcell Variations, aka the Young Person’s Guide, develops the motivic qualities of the theme while leaving behind completely the classical insistence on maintaining the phrase structure.

On the whole, though, I think this is a more convincing way of approaching the topic than I had gotten from your first comment. And I agree entirely that “Beethoven effected huge changes on the sonata form (expansion or deletion of introductions, massive expansion of developments and codas, etc.” That’s an excellent and relevant comment. But that being the case, you let me down badly when you write, “I didn't think of sonata form being central because it was also central in the Mozart and Haydn outputs, and indeed Ries, Hummel, Schubert, etc.“ I would instead argue that Beethoven made sonata form as much his own as he did variations.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on February 08, 2011, 05:13:24 AM
Based on recent Twitter chatter, this past weekend the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and conductor Hilary Davan Wetton recorded the Choral Fantasy. Pianist Leon McCawley, choir City of London Choir, label Naxos.

I'm sorry I haven't replied to your post, Sforzando, only recently I've had time mostly for short little zinger posts and not long, interesting ones.  :(
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 08, 2011, 05:18:32 AM
Twitter chatter
Say that one 5 times in a row fast!   :D
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on February 08, 2011, 05:21:28 AM
Based on recent Twitter chatter, this past weekend the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and conductor Hilary Davan Wetton recorded the Choral Fantasy. Pianist Leon McCawley, choir City of London Choir, label Naxos.

I'm sorry I haven't replied to your post, Sforzando, only recently I've had time mostly for short little zinger posts and not long, interesting ones.  :(

Quite all right, Brian.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Brian on April 07, 2011, 02:55:00 AM
I've recently unearthed, at the British Library, a trove of concert programs kept by the English conductor Sir George Smart, active in the 1810s-30s, who was a major Beethoven advocate, leading the English premiere of Beethoven's Ninth and at one point traveling to Vienna to ask the composer about the proper tempos for all the symphonies. Beethoven composed a short unpublished canon in his presence (16th September 1825). For concerts he conducted, Smart not only kept the programs, but made little notations of some of the timings of the works which most interested him, as well as how long the interval was and when everybody got to go home.

These two struck me as interesting:

5th of May, 1823. Sinfonia Pastorale – Beethoven. [Handwritten note:] “32 M. No repeats.”
March 23, 1829: Sinfonia Pastorale – Beethoven. [Handwritten note:] “All through but no repeats 32 ½ minutes.”

Karajan '62 (no repeats) is 36 minutes. Norrington LCP (w/ repeats) is 40, Bruggen (also with repeats) 42, and the ultimate romantic, Barenboim, takes 45.

On March 1, 1830, the Sinfonia in C minor was 26 minutes, though in 1827 it had been 31 (no mention of repeats). In March 1833, "Sinfonia No. VII." was "40 m." including "Slow movement Enc'd:" and a marginal note informs us that the encore was partly because the symphony was to be followed by an aria from Cosi, but the soprano arrived very late indeed, "just after we began the Encore of the...Beethoven" . Apparently the reason for her delay was that she was also performing in another concert at another theatre that night!

It's very interesting seeing how programs were constructed. One night in 1825 began with Beethoven's 4th ("in Bb 31 minutes"), which was immediately followed by "La ci darem"! And here's the second half of the March 7, 1825 Philharmonic Society concert:

Sinfonia in C minor - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Beethoven
Aria, "Il mio tesoro," (Il Don Giovanni) - - - - - - - Mozart
Introduction and variations, Corno obligato - - - Schuncke
Scena, "Softly sighs" (Der Freischutz*) - - - - - - Weber
Overture, Preciosa - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Weber
[*sung in English. All German arias were translated; there are numerous arias sung from a Mozart work called "Il Flauto Magico" ;D , and also see below]

Another concert begins with "Eroica" and continues with Cherubini's Ave Maria and a "Fantasia Harp"!

Oddly, the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says "Smart conducted the first English performance of Beethoven's ninth symphony at the Philharmonic Society in 1826," an error, as it was actually in March 21, 1825. Smart's handwritten note says, "New Grand Characteristic Sinfonia (M.S.) with Vocal Finale - Beethoven. Composed expressly for this Society _ (Italian Words [!]) Formed 2d Act of the Concert." The performance "Began 22m past 10" and the concert "over 26m past 11" - Smart's note says "1 H 04 M." In my view, this puts the "Beethoven's Ninth is supposed to only be 45 minutes long" theory to bed, for although it is true that Smart only met Beethoven to consult on tempos later that year, I'm not sure you can get down to 45 minutes by faster speeds alone, especially given that Smart himself was quite a snappy conductor, by the looks of it.
Title: Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 07, 2011, 03:14:29 AM
Fascinating bit of research; thanks for sharing. Re this:

Another concert begins with "Eroica" and continues with Cherubini's Ave Maria and a "Fantasia Harp"!

I've heard that it used to be normal to put the "heavy" work at the beginning of a concert. This was common until some time in the mid-20th c., at which point the reverse order began to predominate. Why this change occurred, I don't know. Anyone?

Quote
"New Grand Characteristic Sinfo