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The Music Room => Classical Music for Beginners => Topic started by: BobsterLobster on August 03, 2013, 03:24:54 PM

Title: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: BobsterLobster on August 03, 2013, 03:24:54 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9gI0iw00MM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9gI0iw00MM)

(and seriously: http://www.pronunciationguide.info/index.html (http://www.pronunciationguide.info/index.html))
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: pencils on August 03, 2013, 03:46:22 PM
Excellent, thanks.  Being a non-Danish speaker, I have never known how to pronounce Vagn Holmboe. Less than a minute of looking? I know have my answer.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: lescamil on August 03, 2013, 09:23:48 PM
forvo.com is another great resource. You can hear a wide variety of words and names pronounced by natives, including many composers.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Opus106 on August 03, 2013, 11:10:27 PM
Brilliant! I appreciate the emphasis on repeating the particularly difficult names.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: (: premont :) on August 04, 2013, 07:49:00 AM
Excellent, thanks.  Being a non-Danish speaker, I have never known how to pronounce Vagn Holmboe. Less than a minute of looking? I know have my answer.

Being a Danish speaker, I do not think the spoken pronunciation of Vagn Holmboe is quite correct. The melody is wrong, the highest "note" must fall on the stressed syllable "Holm", which we also pronounce with a stronger "stød" (see:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St%C3%B8d) than the speaker does. And his vowels suffer from an unmistakable English/American accent. A pity they did not ask a Dane to do the speaking.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Marc on August 04, 2013, 09:44:49 AM
http://www.mediafire.com/download/s76yy2y4h6syn62/vgnhlmb.mp3

:P
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: (: premont :) on August 04, 2013, 11:20:59 AM
http://www.mediafire.com/download/s76yy2y4h6syn62/vgnhlmb.mp3

:P

Thanks, excellent. Where did you find this?
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Marc on August 04, 2013, 08:24:55 PM
Har du rode med mig?

Is it really excellent?
Because it was meant as a dull joke.

It's from google translate!
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: lescamil on August 04, 2013, 09:35:35 PM
You could also learn how to read IPA symbols (like many of you singers do, I'm sure) and read the IPA for composers' names, many of which are given on Wikipedia. The IPA for Vagn Holmboe is [ʋɑʊ̯n ˈhʌlmb̥oːˀ], which roughly sounds like "vaughn HUHLM-boh", except that the v is somewhat between the letters v and w, the first O in Holmboe is pronounced like the U in the word "bump", the letter b is devoiced, and there is a glottal stop on the end of the last vowel in Holmboe (the aforementioned stød). This makes it sound a bit different from the sound file from Google Translate. I'd love to hear a native Dane pronounce this to compare with the IPA, for there is really no substitute.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: (: premont :) on August 05, 2013, 09:22:11 AM
You could also learn how to read IPA symbols (like many of you singers do, I'm sure) and read the IPA for composers' names, many of which are given on Wikipedia. The IPA for Vagn Holmboe is [ʋɑʊ̯n ˈhʌlmb̥oːˀ], which roughly sounds like "vaughn HUHLM-boh", except that the v is somewhat between the letters v and w, the first O in Holmboe is pronounced like the U in the word "bump", the letter b is devoiced, and there is a glottal stop on the end of the last vowel in Holmboe (the aforementioned stød). This makes it sound a bit different from the sound file from Google Translate. I'd love to hear a native Dane pronounce this to compare with the IPA, for there is really no substitute.

Even the IPA symbols represent an approximation. The "v" is a "v" as in very, and the "stød" is on "Holm" , not on "boe".

Actually the soundfile from Google translate is very similar to the way a native Dane like me would pronounce the name, except that the "stød" on "Holm" should be a little stronger.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: pencils on August 05, 2013, 10:48:31 AM
If someone doesn't teach me how to say his name correctly, I might just have to cry  :'(
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: (: premont :) on August 06, 2013, 01:54:32 AM
Har du rode med mig?

Hvad i alverden betyder "rode" i den sammenhæng?
Jeg er bange for, at ordet ikke kan bruges på den måde,

http://ordnet.dk/ods/ordbog?query=rode
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Ten thumbs on August 07, 2013, 01:11:21 PM
One name that is almost always given wrong:

Bartók Béla Viktor János
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: North Star on September 24, 2013, 10:47:46 PM
Yeah and so is Takemitsu Toru, but so what. It's better that we don't mix which of the names is the surname.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: jochanaan on September 25, 2013, 01:05:13 PM
One name that is almost always given wrong:

Bartók Béla Viktor János
Yes, I knew about "Bartók Béla."  But I didn't know he was also named Viktor and János...?
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Roberto on December 12, 2013, 11:44:37 PM
Yes, I knew about "Bartók Béla."  But I didn't know he was also named Viktor and János...?
Wikipedia states it but I haven't read it in Bartók biographies.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Ken B on February 20, 2014, 02:49:24 PM
Wish I'd had this when I was in radio.

Did I ever have Kuijken wrong!

But I believe the guide had Dufay wrong, as I do know it was pronounced with three syllables.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: epicous on December 24, 2015, 08:57:22 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9gI0iw00MM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9gI0iw00MM)

(and seriously: http://www.pronunciationguide.info/index.html (http://www.pronunciationguide.info/index.html))

This page is extremely useful, glad for the input.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: (: premont :) on December 25, 2015, 02:46:30 PM
But I believe the guide had Dufay wrong, as I do know it was pronounced with three syllables.

Yes, I have learnt to pronounce it dy-fa-y, but is it the right pronounciation? If it is right, it should be spelled Dufaÿ, I suppose.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Mandryka on December 26, 2015, 06:17:04 AM
(http://s26.postimg.org/qseijj6p5/download_2.jpg)
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 04, 2016, 06:10:43 AM
The French seem to like stressing the final syllable of words, so that when I was watching Michael Haneke's engrossing French film The Piano Teacher the other week, I heard Isabelle Huppert saying schön-BERG, schu-BERT, etc. On the other hand, we Americans always refer to Bizet's opera as CAR-men, while the score invariably stresses the final syllable, as in car-MEN. But then again, car-MEN is not a composer, and is therefore irrelevant to this thread.

I will however persist in mispronouncing Dufay with two syllables as du-FAY. I'm sure he will not object, and I prefer it that way.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 04, 2016, 06:16:42 AM
I will however persist in mispronouncing Dufay with two syllables as du-FAY. I'm sure he will not object, and I prefer it that way.

He's past caring, worthy fellow.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 04, 2016, 09:01:58 AM
I would like to hear from any native German speakers if the proper pronunciation is BEE-thoven (as is universal in America) or bee-THO-ven, as one sometimes hears from Europeans.

Mlle. Huppert also in true French style referred to the composer of Meistersinger as wag-NAYR. To quote Henry Higgins from My Fair Lady, "The French never care what they do, actually, as long as they pronounce in properly."
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Jo498 on January 04, 2016, 11:19:52 AM
I never heard anything but BEET-hoven, i.e. stress on the first (or third to last as such things are often counted) syllable and the second starting with an h which is neither silent nor dropped.
Maybe the Dutch stress it differently in analogy with words from their language?

BTW do people generally pronounce "Lassus" French? I go for the italianate Orlando di Lasso but should it be latinate Rolandus Lassus or French Roland Lassus?
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Camphy on January 04, 2016, 11:21:26 AM
Maybe the Dutch stress it differently in analogy with words from their language?

Most of them don't.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Jo498 on January 04, 2016, 11:25:47 AM
The name is from Dutch, of course, but would it even be stressed differently in Dutch?
I thought of "Eindhoven", but apparently I was wrong/confused about the stress there as well and it is on the "Eind", too.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 04, 2016, 11:49:38 AM
I never heard anything but BEET-hoven, i.e. stress on the first (or third to last as such things are often counted) syllable and the second starting with an h which is neither silent nor dropped.

Mrs. Rock confirms: BEET-hoven...which means I've been mispronouncing it (Bee-thoven) my entire six decades...even though I've lived with Mrs. Rock (a native German) for almost four  :(  In my defense, the difference is subtle and not easily detectable...at least by my ears.

Sarge
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Jo498 on January 04, 2016, 12:10:24 PM
But you did not pronounce the "th" in the English way, I guess ;)

Whether one says "BEE-T(h)oven" or "BEET-hoven" is indeed rather subtle (whereas the stress is not) and one will probably hear both. When talking quickly I would probably not make a real difference either. But slipping into a radio announcer mode and trying to pronounce clearly I would always pronounce it the second way.

Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 04, 2016, 12:17:28 PM
But you did not pronounce the "th" in the English way, I guess ;)

 ;D :D ;D

No, I pronounced the th German style: Bee-Zoven   ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Jo498 on January 04, 2016, 12:27:10 PM
It's actually "besoffen" :D
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 04, 2016, 12:33:46 PM
It's actually "besoffen" :D

Of course ;D  But I wanted to make the joke understandable to the English speakers here who wouldn't know a German s sounds like an English Z.

Sarge
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 04, 2016, 02:03:16 PM
Of course ;D  But I wanted to make the joke understandable to the English speakers here who wouldn't know a German s sounds like an English Z.

Sarge

And Beethoven was oftentimes ganz besoffen.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: pjme on January 05, 2016, 06:47:28 AM
The name is from Dutch, of course, but would it even be stressed differently in Dutch?
I thought of "Eindhoven", but apparently I was wrong/confused about the stress there as well and it is on the "Eind", too.

Ok - Belgium and the  Netherlands form the Low Countries, but, just to be correct, Ludwig's family stems from Mechelen, a very Flemish city halfway between Antwerp and Brussels.

Documents on the Van Beethoven name in Mechelen go back as far as 1574 and concern an Elisabeth Van Beethoven. If this lady is connected to Ludwig must remain unclear since  many documents are missing. It is only from the late 17th - early 18th century on that enough well kept documents survive that indicate that Ludwig's grandfather Michiel  did live in Mechelen and did move to Bonn in 1741, for financial reasons.
Michiel died when Ludwig was three - so he never really knew his grandfather. Michiel went to Bonn because two of his sons worked there already.

In Dutch / Flemish we stress the first sylabble Béét-hoven. The French quite often apply ...french pronunciation rules to foreign words .... Béet - hov - èn. But definitely not everybody speeks about "mozaar" or "Béét ho vèn".

https://youtu.be/gnQ610TgJF8
or

https://youtu.be/LiXj-Dfmw6Y

https://youtu.be/Mabp2wSzHwE

See the (rather ugly...) little Beethoven statues in Mechelen!

https://www.360cities.net/image/mechelen-beethoven?set=395

P.


Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on January 05, 2016, 10:09:29 AM
In the US, you will almost always hear the first syllable accented, and the T starting the second syllable.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: XB-70 Valkyrie on February 23, 2016, 10:46:13 PM
OK, how about Grigny?

GRIN yee?
GRON yee?

Something else?

 
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: pjme on February 24, 2016, 07:48:46 AM
Do check Forvo!

http://nl.forvo.com/search/Grigny/

Peter
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Spineur on February 26, 2016, 03:35:01 PM
The French seem to like stressing the final syllable of words, so that when I was watching Michael Haneke's engrossing French film The Piano Teacher the other week, I heard Isabelle Huppert saying schön-BERG, schu-BERT, etc. On the other hand, we Americans always refer to Bizet's opera as CAR-men, while the score invariably stresses the final syllable, as in car-MEN. But then again, car-MEN is not a composer, and is therefore irrelevant to this thread.

I will however persist in mispronouncing Dufay with two syllables as du-FAY. I'm sure he will not object, and I prefer it that way.
Not really.  It depends if the last letter of the word is pronounced or not.  For Schubert it is not.  So both syllables have the same intensity and are pronnouced chou-bair.
For Schonberg, the G is pronounced.  This puts a stress on the last syllable as you say..
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Ken B on May 21, 2016, 05:33:23 AM
(http://s26.postimg.org/qseijj6p5/download_2.jpg)

I just was checking Dufay on the list as I was pretty sure, for reasons I no longer recall, that his name had three syllables. closer to Due FAH eee .
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: North Star on May 21, 2016, 08:08:12 AM
I just was checking Dufay on the list as I was pretty sure, for reasons I no longer recall, that his name had three syllables. closer to Due FAH eee .
Pronunciation, according to Wikipedia: [dy fa(j)i]
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: EigenUser on July 18, 2016, 02:16:05 AM
The French seem to like stressing the final syllable of words, so that when I was watching Michael Haneke's engrossing French film The Piano Teacher the other week, I heard Isabelle Huppert saying schön-BERG, schu-BERT, etc.

Hah, I know what you mean. In French swearing, they always seem to say "merde" with an emphasis on the "de" -- "mer-duh". The more exasperated they are, the longer the emphasis on the "de" becomes.

In 2007 I stayed with a French family for the Summer (part of an immersion program) and they had a dog (named Rena). One time the dog threw up in the house. I was in the other room, but I distinctly remember hearing my host mom yelling at the dog:

"Rena! Non! Rena!! RENA!! NON!!!"

*sound of dog throwing up*

"mer-duuuuuuuhhh!"
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 18, 2016, 02:31:02 AM
Not really.  It depends if the last letter of the word is pronounced or not.  For Schubert it is not.  So both syllables have the same intensity and are pronnouced chou-bair.
For Schonberg, the G is pronounced.  This puts a stress on the last syllable as you say..

But you will agree that neither composer's name is pronounced by the French as it should properly be in German, with stress on the first syllable?

And while I don't want to go through the film again just to check the pronunciation of one name, my distinct impression was that Huppert said choo-BAIR and not choo-bair.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on July 18, 2016, 02:32:20 AM
Hah, I know what you mean. In French swearing, they always seem to say "merde" with an emphasis on the "de" -- "mer-duh". The more exasperated they are, the longer the emphasis on the "de" becomes.

In 2007 I stayed with a French family for the Summer (part of an immersion program) and they had a dog (named Rena). One time the dog threw up in the house. I was in the other room, but I distinctly remember hearing my host mom yelling at the dog:

"Rena! Non! Rena!! RENA!! NON!!!"

*sound of dog throwing up*

"mer-duuuuuuuhhh!"

They may have elongated the DUUUUUUHH, but they did not stress the second syllable.

Similarly, when I studied French in school, I was told that in a word like trente-trois, the second "e" is always silent. Not so when I heard native a Frenchmen speak the word slowly. But he wasn't throwing up, and Spineur can verify oui ou non here.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Visions_fugitives on September 13, 2016, 10:45:16 PM
Pronunciation, according to Wikipedia: [dy fa(j)i]

It's great to always learn new things.
I always called him Dufé.
That must be why he never answered
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Visions_fugitives on September 13, 2016, 10:52:02 PM
Regarding Beethoven, here in Italy you will almost always hear " Be-TO-ven".
But you would also hear "Shu-MA-ker", among others, so it is no surprise.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Jo498 on September 13, 2016, 11:48:22 PM
To my recollection, the name Beethoven is also wrongly stressed in the song "Roll over BeetHOVen"
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: zamyrabyrd on September 14, 2016, 03:23:39 AM
It's funny to hear in Israel (where they could have gotten it right) like on the radio or wherever, "Lee-o-nard" Bernstein, instead of "Lennard".
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: zamyrabyrd on September 14, 2016, 03:25:58 AM
Similarly, when I studied French in school, I was told that in a word like trente-trois, the second "e" is always silent. Not so when I heard native a Frenchmen speak the word slowly.

I always found a gap between what teachers say and what is done in the real world. And that goes for music, too.
Title: Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
Post by: Ghost Sonata on September 14, 2016, 03:41:11 AM
It's great to always learn new things.
I always called him Dufé.
That must be why he never answered

 :) ;D :laugh: