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The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: Florestan on May 05, 2016, 01:30:40 AM

Title: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 05, 2016, 01:30:40 AM
My intention in starting this thread is to create a genial meeting place for all those interested in discussing all things Romantic. The main focus is of course music, but in keeping with a genuine Romantic spirit, talking about, and commenting on, literature, visual arts and philosophy is welcome and encouraged. As long as there is a connection to Romanticism, there is no offtopic here.

So, you are all warmly invited to join in and bring your love (or lack thereof) and knowledge of, and perspective about, Romantic music (and Romanticism in general). Whether a particular composer or recording, an interesting book or article on the subject, or simply your own ideas and thoughts, feel free to express yourself in complete liberty: people who dislike, or even hate, Romanticism are most welcome too, there is always something interesting to learn from the opposition, and we might even be able to make a few converts.

Thanks for reading.

Cheers,
Florestan

I´ll start right off by recommending you this article, which is quite illuminating about what (mainly German) Romanticism was all about and is accompanied by some very nice musical examples which allow anyone to build his own concert using whatever recordings of the musical material they want.

http://www.goetzrichter.com/pages/Writings/Romanticism.pdf (http://www.goetzrichter.com/pages/Writings/Romanticism.pdf)

Btw, does anyone know a (good) recording of Nietzsche´s works for violin and piano?  :D

Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Que on May 05, 2016, 01:38:29 AM
Great initiative, Andrei!  :)

Q
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 05, 2016, 01:41:55 AM
Great initiative, Andrei!  :)

Q

Thanks a lot! Making it sticky is very kind of you.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Cato on May 05, 2016, 02:25:22 AM
What a coincidence!  I had just pulled out of the archives...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KSZG1PHRL._SX332_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

An excellent examination of how the artists became wrapped up in the politics of that century.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: North Star on May 05, 2016, 03:07:54 AM
Very good!

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Josef_Danhauser_Liszt_am_Fl%C3%BCgel_1840_01.jpg/1024px-Josef_Danhauser_Liszt_am_Fl%C3%BCgel_1840_01.jpg)
Josef Danhauser: Franz Liszt playing in a Parisian salon a grand piano by Conrad Graf , who commissioned the painting; on the piano is a bust of Beethoven by Anton Dietrich; the imagined gathering shows seated Alexandre Dumas (père), George Sand, Franz Liszt, Marie d'Agoult; standing Hector Berlioz or Victor Hugo, Niccolò Paganini, Gioachino Rossini; a portrait of Byron on the wall and a statue of Joan of Arc on the far left.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: ritter on May 05, 2016, 05:04:26 AM
An excellent idea, Florestan.  :)

I myself am not very much of the romantic persuasion  :-[, but will be delighted to visit (if the uncoverted are welcome, of course  ;) ) whenever I have anything interesting to comment (or, more probably, to ask)...

Regards,

Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 05, 2016, 06:16:46 AM
(http://s32.postimg.org/4voe2x1mt/Megan.jpg)

Nightly from my narrow chamber driven,
Come I to fulfil my destin'd part,
Him to seek to whom my troth was given,
And to draw the life-blood from his heart.
He hath served my will;
More I yet must kill,
For another prey I now depart.


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51fvXI6099L.jpg)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 05, 2016, 10:19:46 AM
Welcome, gentlemen! Glad you joined!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KSZG1PHRL._SX332_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

An excellent examination of how the artists became wrapped up in the politics of that century.

That looks very interesting. Could you please summarize it?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Josef_Danhauser_Liszt_am_Fl%C3%BCgel_1840_01.jpg/1024px-Josef_Danhauser_Liszt_am_Fl%C3%BCgel_1840_01.jpg)

Ah yes, this one is a classic! (pun...  :D ), thanks for posting!

Speaking of Rossini, have you listened to his late piano music? There are some pieces there that nobody would be able to guess their author in a blind test.

An excellent idea, Florestan.  :)

I myself am not very much of the romantic persuasion  :-[, but will be delighted to visit (if the uncoverted are welcome, of course  ;) ) whenever I have anything interesting to comment (or, more probably, to ask)...

Regards,

Thank you and visit often! You are more than welcome.

Nightly from my narrow chamber driven,
Come I to fulfil my destin'd part,
Him to seek to whom my troth was given,
And to draw the life-blood from his heart.
He hath served my will;
More I yet must kill,
For another prey I now depart.


(http://elangrymonkey.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/vade-retro-redux1.jpg)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: North Star on May 05, 2016, 10:47:36 AM
Speaking of Rossini, have you listened to his late piano music? There are some pieces there that nobody would be able to guess their author in a blind test.
I have indeed, and found it very good indeed. It's been several years, though.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 05, 2016, 12:09:23 PM
On which side of the Beethoven fence do we stand? >:D



Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 05, 2016, 12:45:44 PM
What a coincidence!  I had just pulled out of the archives...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KSZG1PHRL._SX332_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

An excellent examination of how the artists became wrapped up in the politics of that century.

Cato - boy, that book looks familiar but not found in my collection (not unexpected, wife and I donate our books to local charities on an annual basis, so may have been a read before and given away?) - but I see that Andrei has already asked for some comments - thanks.  Dave :)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 05, 2016, 11:18:35 PM
On which side of the Beethoven fence do we stand? >:D

Some of his works are clearly Romantic, some not that much.  :D
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 05, 2016, 11:30:36 PM
I have indeed, and found it very good indeed. It's been several years, though.

I have the first four volumes of Stefan Irmer´s cycle on MDG and the complete 8-volume Paolo Giacometti cycle on Channel Classics (too many covers to post). The latter has better sonics and uses a splendid-sounding 1849 Erard. It got a 10/10 rave review by Hurwitz himself.

Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 06, 2016, 06:05:29 AM
Recommended article for those interested in the numerous and often rather esoteric literary connections of Schumann's solo piano music:

Is Schumann’s Album for the Young Really for the Young? (http://www.appca.com.au/proceedings/2009/part_2/Green_Elizabeth.pdf)

The author, one Elizabeth Green, makes an interesting case for AFTY being inspired by, and modeled after, Blake's Songs of Innocence and Experience. Give it a read --- whether you agree or not, it is a good opportunity to visit / revisit one of Schumann's most charming piano cycles. There is no dearth of good recordings: Samuil Feinberg, Carlo Zecchi, Rene Gianoli, Francoise Thinat, Alexis Weissenberg, Joerg Demus, Joseph Nagy, Michael Endres, Luba Edlina... Actually, AFTY seems to be more popular with pianists than with the audience.





Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Cato on May 06, 2016, 06:41:48 AM
What a coincidence!  I had just pulled out of the archives...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41KSZG1PHRL._SX332_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

An excellent examination of how the artists became wrapped up in the politics of that century.

Cato - boy, that book looks familiar but not found in my collection (not unexpected, wife and I donate our books to local charities on an annual basis, so may have been a read before and given away?) - but I see that Andrei has already asked for some comments - thanks.  Dave :)

Holy Madness is a tour de force: beginning with the American Revolution and ending with the Franco-Prussian War, the author shows how the concepts of Romanticism galloped across Europe, although the last chapter shows the lingering of Romanticism (as a spiritual-political force) into the 20th century.  Composers do not figure as much as writers, e.g. Goethe gets more print than Wagner, Rousseau more than Berlioz, and there is no mention of Beethoven, which lack I find inexplicable.

And yet it is an almost cinematic description of large and small players in revolutionary Europe - from Portugal to Poland and even Russia (e.g. Bakunin and Dostoyevsky are discussed).

An example from the concluding chapter: after discussing Hitler's (mad?) order that Nazis be sent into Italy to find ancient copies of the Germania by Tacitus  (which was rather laudatory toward the ancient Germanic tribes) even in 1944, Zamoyski writes:

Quote
What these regimes did was to carry to their logical extremity Rousseau's ideas on the need to replace God in the workings of human society with something else that would motivate people in the desired direction.  But regimes which applied the ideas of Rousseau somehow always seemed to inherit along with them something of the obsessive  self-pitying paranoia of the man himself, and usually ended up destroying themselves through their own instruments of control and repression...

(referring to Lafayette and his peers who still believed in God in some way)...These were no mere rebels; they aspired to emulate Christ by immolating themselves for the sake of humanity....The wars and revolutions they started or embraced were acts of faith...
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 06, 2016, 10:32:47 AM
And yet it is an almost cinematic description of large and small players in revolutionary Europe - from Portugal to Poland and even Russia (e.g. Bakunin and Dostoyevsky are discussed).

Does he mention even en passant Bălcescu, C. A. Rosetti and the Brătianu brothers?
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 06, 2016, 10:36:46 AM
Holy Madness is a tour de force: beginning with the American Revolution and ending with the Franco-Prussian War, the author shows how the concepts of Romanticism galloped across Europe, although the last chapter shows the lingering of Romanticism (as a spiritual-political force) into the 20th century.  Composers do not figure as much as writers,.............

Thanks Cato for the excellent comments - available to read for free w/ my Amazon Prime or just a $4 purchase - Dave :)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Cato on May 06, 2016, 11:39:01 AM
Does he mention even en passant Bălcescu, C. A. Rosetti and the Brătianu brothers?

I do not have the copy at hand right now, but let us just say that if the author does not mention them, he should be horse-whipped!   ;)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Mandryka on May 06, 2016, 08:44:11 PM
Recommended article for those interested in the numerous and often rather esoteric literary connections of Schumann's solo piano music:

Is Schumann’s Album for the Young Really for the Young? (http://www.appca.com.au/proceedings/2009/part_2/Green_Elizabeth.pdf)

The author, one Elizabeth Green, makes an interesting case for AFTY being inspired by, and modeled after, Blake's Songs of Innocence and Experience. Give it a read --- whether you agree or not, it is a good opportunity to visit / revisit one of Schumann's most charming piano cycles. There is no dearth of good recordings: Samuil Feinberg, Carlo Zecchi, Rene Gianoli, Francoise Thinat, Alexis Weissenberg, Joerg Demus, Joseph Nagy, Michael Endres, Luba Edlina... Actually, AFTY seems to be more popular with pianists than with the audience.
Can someone confirm or deny that Album for the Young cannot have been intended for youngsters because most of the pieces are too difficult? It's one of Green's "arguments."
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 07, 2016, 04:36:49 AM
Can someone confirm or deny that Album for the Young cannot have been intended for youngsters because most of the pieces are too difficult? It's one of Green's "arguments."

According to Wikipedia:

Album for the Young (Album für die Jugend), Op. 68, was composed by Robert Schumann in 1848 for his three daughters. The album consists of a collection of 43 short works. Unlike the Kinderszenen, they are suitable to be played by children or beginners. The second part, starting at Nr. 19 (Kleine Romanze), is marked Für Erwachsenere (For adults; For more grown-up ones) and contains more demanding pieces.

Anyway, apart from the mere technical argument it is the suggested symbolism and overall structuring of the cycle as a unified whole that I find if not convincing then at least plausible.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: amw on May 07, 2016, 05:08:10 AM
Can someone confirm or deny that Album for the Young cannot have been intended for youngsters because most of the pieces are too difficult? It's one of Green's "arguments."
The pieces are more or less graded in order of difficulty (though "order of difficulty" obviously changes with time and culture), starting at about Grade 1-2, with the most difficult ones (Sylvesterlied, Figurtiert Choral u.a.) being Grade 5 or thereabouts—which is an "intermediate" level. These days novice pianists could start at the beginning almost immediately, and would probably be playing the last ones after a year or so of study. I don't know what it was like in Schumann's time.

Of the three piano sonatas for his daughters one of them is slightly more difficult than the other two, which I assume reflected their playing abilities at the time. The Kinderszenen may have been meant for beginners/intermediate pianists (being called Leichte Stücke) but, although technically easy, are only suitable for advanced pianists and professionals due to many subtleties of phrasing and touch, and lots of octaves and tenths. (That said they are the easiest of Schumann's early works.)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 07, 2016, 10:59:35 AM
"Liszt was the first composer-performer to find ways, as a pianist and conductor, to reach a wide public, to make music accessible and enjoyable to more than a self-styled elite of connoisseurs. He did so by connecting music to the public’s wider interests, in poetry and prose, in politics, in history, and in art and religion. " (emphasis mine)

RTWT here: http://publicdomainreview.org/2011/10/17/what-makes-franz-liszt-still-important/ (http://publicdomainreview.org/2011/10/17/what-makes-franz-liszt-still-important/)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 07, 2016, 04:39:17 PM
Caspar David Friedrich!

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Caspar_David_Friedrich_-_Man_and_Woman_Contemplating_the_Moon_-_WGA08271.jpg)

Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: North Star on May 08, 2016, 11:32:58 PM
The notion of the sublime was a defining element of Romantic art, and instrumental to the rising appreciation of the landscape during the era. At Tate Gallery's website, there's a fine collection of essays on the sublime, in baroque, Romantic, Victorian, modern and contemporary art.

Quote
Edmund Burke’s Philosophical Enquiry (1757) connected the sublime with experiences of awe, terror and danger. Burke saw nature as the most sublime object, capable of generating the strongest sensations in its beholders. This Romantic conception of the sublime proved influential for several generations of artists.

http://www.tate.org.uk/art/research-publications/the-sublime

(http://www.tate.org.uk/art/images/research/1200_10.jpg)   (http://www.tate.org.uk/art/images/research/1226_9.jpg)
Joseph Mallord William Turner: The Shipwreck, exhibited 1805                    John Martin: The Great Day of His Wrath 1851–3
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 08, 2016, 11:57:33 PM
Scion and Karlo, thanks for your posts. Indeed, Friedrich and Turner are among my favorite painters.

(http://www.wga.hu/art/f/friedric/2/212fried.jpg)

(https://www.artsy.net/artwork/joseph-mallord-william-turner-venice-the-dogana-and-san-giorgio-maggiore/download/joseph-mallord-william-turner-venice-the-dogana-and-san-giorgio-maggiore-1834.jpg)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2016, 01:35:28 AM
Carl Maria von Weber is one of my favorite Romantic composers, and not just for Freischutz. I find also his instrumental music to be extremely appealing. The piano sonatas in particular are perennial favorites in the genre, despite the common criticism leveled at them for being rather disjointed. My joy was all the more greater when a few days ago I stumbled upon this book, edited by R. Larry Todd, probably the world´s leading expert on Mendelssohn:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ChH8-DmvL._SX329_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

Among the many articles included, the one that picqued my interest the most is Michael Tusa´s In Defense of Weber, which offers a sympathetic assessment of his piano music. After pointing out some innovative features of his piano variations, he proceeds to an in-depth analysis of the four sonatas and shows, in rather dry, technical language sometimes impenetrable for me as a non-specialist, that far from being disjointed, there is always an unifying structure and conception behind them. The best case he makes is for the fourth, which according to Julius Benedict who was Weber´s pupil, even has a psychological program conceived by the composer himself. It is surprising for me that Tusa fails to notice, or at least to mention, that the program of the sonata (composed in 1822) matches very closely the mental tribulations of the main character in E. T. A. Hoffmann´s The Sandman, published in 1817. Now, whether Weber had read it is a matter of speculation from my part, but given that (1) he was acquainted with Hoffmann´s music, having written a sympathetic review of his opera Undine (read it here: http://www.raptusassociation.org/hoffm_undinewebere.html (http://www.raptusassociation.org/hoffm_undinewebere.html)) and (2) he was an active member of a literary/artistic association bearing the curious name "Faust´s Descent to Hell", (of which another prominent member was his friend and fellow composer Franz Danzi) it is not implausible. Be it as it may, Weber´s own program is clearly reflected in the music. If you are interested I suggest you listen to the whole thing and try to figure it out before discovering the original*. It would be a nice opportunity to hear this neglected pianistic gem.

I have two recordings of it:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6wFBHP0Vf0Q/Vfup-lkV6SI/AAAAAAAAEoQ/S-sLE5gjfxY/s1600/cover.png) (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/099/MI0001099171.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Both are excellent in conveying the mood(s), Endres being slightly better musically, especially in the final movement, and Olssohn having the better sound. If you are seriously interested in Weber´s piano music, you should have them both.

* Tusa´s article can be read almost in full here: https://books.google.ro/books?id=FWNGAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=michael+tusa+in+defense+of+weber&source=bl&ots=M0uXqXTKJY&sig=UuP2RV9gWQzjLOwuOoU9evaeTDk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwid5_rB48zMAhVLkiwKHWMsDgwQ6AEILjAG#v=onepage&q=michael%20tusa%20in%20defense%20of%20weber&f=false (https://books.google.ro/books?id=FWNGAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=michael+tusa+in+defense+of+weber&source=bl&ots=M0uXqXTKJY&sig=UuP2RV9gWQzjLOwuOoU9evaeTDk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwid5_rB48zMAhVLkiwKHWMsDgwQ6AEILjAG#v=onepage&q=michael%20tusa%20in%20defense%20of%20weber&f=false) (scroll one page down)


Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 09, 2016, 01:49:00 AM
Weber's a transitional figure - a lot of his music is firmly in the Classical camp.
Any of his winds chamber music, for example, follows the early Beethoven/Mozart mould.

That said ... "ZAMUEL - ZAMUEL - COME FORTH AND MAKE FLORESTAN YOUR WINEPRESS ... mu-ha-ha-ha-haaaa!"

<devil/vampyre-stabbed in the back just when you thought it was safe-grinning with malice-emoticon>
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2016, 02:23:13 AM
Weber's a transitional figure - a lot of his music is firmly in the Classical camp.
Any of his winds chamber music, for example, follows the early Beethoven/Mozart mould.

I beg to differ. His winds chamber music has an unmistakably Early Romantic soundworld and feeling.





Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 09, 2016, 03:11:47 AM
I don't hear it at all.  Oh, well.
(are you sure that's not the wine 'n' Brânză de burduf talking?)
 :P
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2016, 03:24:02 AM
(are you sure that's not the wine 'n' Brânză de burduf talking?)
 :P

Only a fool would have brânză de burduf with wine. It goes much better with ţuică.

I´ll give you that the Clarinet Quintet is more Classical than the Trio for Flute, Cello & Piano, which is firmly Romantic.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 09, 2016, 03:30:29 AM
I'll give it a spin later this afternoon to see if you speak the truth  . . .
                                                                                                        . . . or if you are telling a LIE!

[ and the Wallachian law for fibbing has never been changed from Vlad's day, barbaric and 'orrible tho' it be - the liar shall be tied by the neck to a post in the public square (in this case, the local Bucharest Origo's) and his tongue shall be pierced, ring-chained, and stretched out for the crows to feast upon, while your friends and co-workers yell out "Turk!  Turk! Mongol!" ]

<stern justice emoticon>

Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Jo498 on May 09, 2016, 03:32:43 AM
While I can agree that Weber has one foot still in classicism, "transitional" does not seem to capture well what he achieved. It's more "both" than "in between".
The three mature operas can hardly described as anything else than fully fledged romanticism and they are his most important works, I think. Freischütz was immediately recognized as the birth of German romantic opera and while the two later ones are dramaturgically problematic they also contain great (and highly romantic) music (Tovey claimed that despite its dramatic flaws "Euryanthe" was in some respects as good as Wagner's "Lohengrin" 25 years later.)

Some other pieces, e.g. the piano concerti are quite "classical", sometimes more "conservative" than Beethoven. Then the f minor concert piece is another key work for romanticism. The clarinet works are often in between, oscillating within one piece between moody romantic opera and a slightly shallow virtuoso brand of classicism (e.g. the 2nd vs. 4th movement of the clarinet quintet). I find his music often fascinating and I think he is underrated today (except for Freischütz which is still very popular in Germany but less elsewhere) but there is no doubt that his output is fairly uneven.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2016, 03:35:00 AM
I find his music often fascinating and I think he is underrated today (except for Freischütz which is still very popular in Germany but less elsewhere)

Agreed.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 09, 2016, 03:39:48 AM
Agreed.
Thirded.

While at university I sought out and bought every instrumental Weber work - made the morning wake-up routine chipper.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 09, 2016, 04:27:30 AM
...  the Trio for Flute, Cello & Piano, which is firmly Romantic.

Ok, curiosity got the better of me, so I drug out the live recording of this piece from 1819 -

Trio for Flute, Cello & Piano in g, Op.63
WEBER-Kuoto, Hasegawa, Grice
Allegro moderato-Scherzo. Allegro vivace-Schäfers Klage. Andante espressivo-Finale. Allegro

- that I had on the computer, since the LP at home is ... at home. 
The first movement is a battle between the Classical and the Romantic in tone - the Scherzo seems purely Classical - the Shepherd's Lament, due to the programmatic nature, I will grant you is Romantic.  The Finale I would put in the Romantic side of the line.

Well, stone the crows - the crows don't get theirs today.   :)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2016, 04:33:33 AM
Ok, curiosity got the better of me, so I drug out the live recording of this piece from 1819 -

Trio for Flute, Cello & Piano in g, Op.63
WEBER-Kuoto, Hasegawa, Grice
Allegro moderato-Scherzo. Allegro vivace-Schäfers Klage. Andante espressivo-Finale. Allegro

- that I had on the computer, since the LP at home is ... at home. 
The first movement is a battle between the Classical and the Romantic in tone - the Scherzo seems purely Classical - the Shepherd's Lament, due to the programmatic nature, I will grant you is Romantic.  The Finale I would put in the Romantic side of the line.

So I win 2.5 to 1.5  :D
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Cato on May 09, 2016, 05:34:26 AM

The three mature operas can hardly described as anything else than fully fledged romanticism and they are his most important works, I think. Freischütz was immediately recognized as the birth of German romantic opera ...


Certainly Thomas Mann in his novel Doctor Faustus mentions the opera almost as an Ur-symbol of Romanticism, especially the famous Wolf's Glen (Wolfsschlucht) scene.

https://www.youtube.com/v/HysUA8wx7UM
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2016, 05:58:36 AM
Some other pieces, e.g. the piano concerti are quite "classical", sometimes more "conservative" than Beethoven.

The two piano concerti are a mixed bag but their "classicism" is more Beethoven-like, one foot in the Romantic camp already, than Haydn-like or Mozart-like. I´d say that both Adagios are quite Romantic in mood.

The problem with Weber is that he died too young. Had he lived longer he could have probably developped a mature, full-fledged Romantic style in his orchestral and chamber music too. Think about Louis Spohr: two-year older than Weber, he outlived him by more than 30 years and evolved from late Classicism / Early Romantic to firmly Romantic.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2016, 08:25:09 AM
Actually, there is no need to break the rules in order to be a Romantic. One can write in the strictest Classical form and yet be red-hot Romantic.  :D

Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 09, 2016, 03:24:19 PM
Yes, just ask Brahms.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 09, 2016, 04:41:14 PM
Happy Independence Day

Queue up the Enescu!
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2016, 08:24:23 PM
Yes, just ask Brahms.

Schubert, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky...

Happy Independence Day

Queue up the Enescu!

Thank you! How come you know about it? It´s not even an official holiday, because of its association with the monarchy.

I will.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 09, 2016, 10:27:58 PM
Two reasons - one, my second discipline is as a historian, which is what do in my semi-retired position at a university; the other is that, while my current girlfriend is a Hungarian nurse, I've always had a taste for eastern-Eurowomen.   :)  I've had a Romanian, a Latvian, and a couple of Russian gf's in the past.  I even have a 'friend' in Samara who comes over from time to time.

Do you care for the music of Smetana?
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 10, 2016, 01:07:36 AM
Two reasons - one, my second discipline is as a historian, which is what do in my semi-retired position at a university; the other is that, while my current girlfriend is a Hungarian nurse, I've always had a taste for eastern-Eurowomen.   :)  I've had a Romanian, a Latvian, and a couple of Russian gf's in the past.  I even have a 'friend' in Samara who comes over from time to time.

How old are you, if I may ask?

Quote
Do you care for the music of Smetana?

Apart from Vltava, the overture to The Bartered Bride and possibly the string quartets I haven´t heard anything else by him. What would you recommend me?
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 10, 2016, 01:23:17 AM
How old?
You mean, since I fell in battle stopping the Turk at Targoviste, and arose?

<eyebrows going up and down rapidly emoticon>

Ma Vlast, certainly.  His piano music is also extraordinary.

Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 10, 2016, 02:17:23 AM
How old?
You mean, since I fell in battle stopping the Turk at Targoviste, and arose?

Vlad the Impaler did not die in the Battle of  Târgoviște.

Bram Stoker´s fabrication has nothing, but absolutely nothing to do with his real life and history.

But I am sure that as a professional historian you already knew that.  :D

Quote
His piano music is also extraordinary.

I´ll investigate, thanks.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 10, 2016, 03:00:27 AM
I'm Scion, not Vlad.   >:D

Look up SMETANA-Macbeth and the Witches
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 10, 2016, 07:51:53 AM
Apart from Vltava, the overture to The Bartered Bride and possibly the string quartets I haven´t heard anything else by him. What would you recommend me?

Opera fan or not this is a required romantic experience.




Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 10, 2016, 08:15:42 AM
Look up SMETANA-Macbeth and the Witches

Opera fan or not this is a required romantic experience.




Thanks, gentlemen. I do like opera so I will certainly look for it.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 11, 2016, 03:51:07 AM
(https://img.discogs.com/tYkkeWCTfOvwNgmyv9Eqzrk5W4A=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-5774209-1402295158-9279.jpeg.jpg)  (https://img.discogs.com/NMkaSKvLw2pODYjGc2vG0VBjJ8s=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7371510-1440036463-2009.jpeg.jpg)

Vinyl lives.   ;D  1956 & 1966, respecitively

Get this one, actually - smashing overture:

(http://s32.postimg.org/vj6l8u8it/Bartered.jpg)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 11, 2016, 02:49:11 PM
Get this one, actually - smashing overture:

(http://s32.postimg.org/vj6l8u8it/Bartered.jpg)

That's the same one I linked above. Mine is just the later reissue.


Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 12, 2016, 02:31:12 AM
Okay, this is the version I could get my hands on for the time being.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ze8fcdCWL.jpg)

Do you know it?

It´s sung in German but I don´t mind (my very modest knowledge of German is still a thousand times better than my Czech --- and honestly, who follows the libretto while listening to an opera? not me, anyway :D ). The cast looks spectacular, the conductor no less and the orchestra and choir should do at least a very decent job. I will report back after listening.

Actually, here is what an Amazon reviewer wrote about it:

For music lovers who are unfamiliar with the history of this work, a couple preliminary remarks are in order. First on the fact that the Bride made its way into the world via its German libretto. Smetana's first language (as with many well-educated Czechs, e.g. Kafka) was German. It explains why the opera is sung in German on this album and why it is nonsense to claim greater authenticity for the Czech version. Second, a good half of the Bamberg Orchestra (greatly underestimated outside of Germany, but on the inside considered to be one of its finest) was staffed by musicians who were refugees from Bohemia during the War. It helps to know these things to put certain often debated issues into context. Finally that Smetana affiliated himself with the Neo-German School of Liszt & Co. That school had always bemoaned the lack of a really good comic opera from its adherent, and although Peter Cornelius wrote one, it was hardly the kind of masterpiece they were hoping for. Smetana on his part felt that he was destined to write the great tragic opera for his country; the last thing he expected to make a great name for him was a comic opera! But that's how matters turned out.
As for the recording under scrutiny, no praise can be too high for it. It is astonishingly well recorded for its era, and still sounds very good and clear. Rudolf Kempe's direction is spirited, mixing the brash with the sentimental, the comic banalities and the romantic love elements in a inimitable brew. No other conductor since then has even come close to giving such a brilliant portrayal of this masterpiece. Even if you don't understand the text fully (and there is a lot of colloquialism), the music carries you forward on its heady pulse.
The singing is mostly of a quality to match. Fritz Wunderlich, who died so tragically young, is a perfect lover, singing with great feeling and a smooth, mellifluous tenor voice. If you are familiar with his Tamino (Magic Flute, conducted by Böhm) expect something of the same superlative quality here. Gottlob Frick, although better known for his "black bass" and Wagnerian roles, brings a genuine comic basso feel to his role. The pity is that Pilar Lorengar's voice is a little stretched on occasion; she is the weak link in the trio of principals. On the other hand, all of the subsidiary cast are excellent, fully alive to the Bohemian "country fair" atmosphere.
As far as opera recordings are concerned, it is difficult to conceive how this could ever be bettered.


Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Jo498 on May 12, 2016, 03:00:21 AM
I don't know the Bartered Bride except for the usual excerpts, but Cornelius' "Der Barbier von Bagdad" is quite underrated nowadays and deserves more attention. Together with Nicolai's "Merry Wives of Windsor" it is one of the more successful German romantic comic operas (there are a bunch by Lortzing as well as Flotow's "Martha" but they have not all aged well, nevertheless several used to be fairly popular on German/Austrian theaters until the 1970s).

There is a good (radio?) recording on Hänssler (cond. Leitner) and a bunch of historical recordings (I think there are also slightly different versions of the piece but I do not know the details).
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: North Star on May 12, 2016, 11:57:49 AM
A couple of lectures from Yale University Art Gallery that fit here.


Quote
Romantic art is perhaps best defined by its refusing definition. Intensifying the subjective nature of human experience, Romantic artists reached toward willfully indeterminate goals. They launched their work as songs without words—that is, as open-ended expressions that each individual viewer creatively completes. In the opening lecture for the exhibition The Critique of Reason: Romantic Art, 1760–1860, co-organized by the Yale University Art Gallery and the Yale Center for British Art, Joseph Leo Koerner, B.A. 1980, the Victor S. Thomas Professor of History of Art and Architecture at Harvard University, puts words to some of the pictures on view.
Quote
Francisco Goya played a pivotal role in the history of printmaking. His five series of prints span a turbulent half century in Spain, defined by the Spanish Enlightenment, the downfall of the old regime, the Napoleonic invasion, and the restoration of a conservative monarchy. Janis A. Tomlinson, Goya scholar and Director of University Museums at the University of Delaware, in Newark, discusses the imagery of each of Goya’s series in relation to the historical context and the artist’s biography. Presented in conjunction with the exhibition Meant to Be Shared: Selections from the Arthur Ross Collection of European Prints at the Yale University Art Gallery.

https://www.youtube.com/v/oovMD1Ig49o https://www.youtube.com/v/FVe3LogVzcQ

(http://media.vam.ac.uk/media/thira/collection_images/2006BD/2006BD1579.jpg)    (https://briezserge.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/goya-3.jpg?w=1180)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 12, 2016, 06:11:35 PM
Let's not forget Goya's painting of Napoleon's men shooting some unruly Romanians!

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/El_Tres_de_Mayo,_by_Francisco_de_Goya,_from_Prado_thin_black_margin.jpg/1280px-El_Tres_de_Mayo,_by_Francisco_de_Goya,_from_Prado_thin_black_margin.jpg)

 >:D
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 13, 2016, 02:14:52 AM
Let's not forget Goya's painting of Napoleon's men shooting some unruly Romanians!

You know, had Napoleon occupied Wallachia and Moldavia he´d have been hailed as a liberator. Many boyars briefly entertained that hope, actually.  :D
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 13, 2016, 05:00:33 AM
The Romanians don't respect the Count:

(http://s32.postimg.org/71a9r7m9x/gov.jpg)
Renfield: "Master! There's someone at the door. They want to see you. I ...  I think they're from the government."
Dracula: "How do you know?"
Renfield: "They're wearing shoes."

(http://s32.postimg.org/txrqokghx/Committee.jpg)
Femmunist: " . . . and therefore, by unanimous vote of the central committee, it has been decided to turn this castle into a training camp for our young athletes.  You - and your cockroach-eating friend over there - have 48 hours to GET OUT.  Good evening, comrade Count!"

(http://s32.postimg.org/en342pith/Rom_Law.jpg)
Count: "Wait one minute! This is my home! My people cleared the land. We tortured innocent peasants for it.  We even murdered for it! By Romanian law, that makes it ours!"

(http://s32.postimg.org/esv7v7nut/aristocratic.jpg)
Femmunist: "Now you listen to me, stupid!  In 48 hours, we'll be back here with trampolines, parallel bars, swings, and Nadia Camoneci!  DON'T be here!"
Count: "Don't be here?  Where am I to go?"
Femmunist: "You have a choice, comrade Count.  Either you spend the rest of your life in an efficiency apartment with seven dissidents and one toilet, or you gather up your aristocratic shit together and SPLIT!"

(http://s32.postimg.org/4m7yrsdxh/toilet.jpg)
Count: "Renfield!"
Renfield: "Yes, master?"
Count: "What is an efficiency apartment?"
Renfield: "I don't know, master . . . . what's a toilet?"

     So, let us turn to the Romanian composer supreme.  Enescu, with his jagged version of Romanticism.
He started off looking back at the past; for example, his wonderful Piano Quartet in D, Op.16 from 1909.
While most critics would say his own voice comes through in the second piano quartet in d-minor from 1944,
for listening enjoyment, I say Opus 16 is more fun.  This pre-war, but post-Dracula boarding the ship back to Varna,
has a great 19th century Romantic feel.

(http://s32.postimg.org/5ppdj1hfp/crop0008.jpg) (http://s32.postimg.org/grm8ga745/Back.jpg)



 




Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 13, 2016, 05:19:03 AM
The Romanians don't respect the Count:

That is just a fun movie.  I like the part where the psychiatrist pulls out the Jewish star and then they have a 'you are getting sleepy' contest.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 13, 2016, 05:42:09 AM
That is just a fun movie.  I like the part where the psychiatrist pulls out the Jewish star ...

What do you say to ....... THIS!!!!  (pulls out a Star of David)

Dracula: I would say, "why don't you go find a nice Jewish girl, Rosenberg, and leave Cindy alone?"

Rosenberg: (looks down at the Star) 'oh yeah, it's the other one, isn't it?'

 :laugh:
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 13, 2016, 06:39:25 AM
The Romanians don't respect the Count:

How could we respect, or even take seriously, someone whose name rhymes perfectly with the 4-letter word defining the male sexual organ? Dracula is actually the laughing stock of the whole nation. ;D ;D ;D

Had Bram Stoker known Romanian, he´d certainly have chosen another termination for his name.  :)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 13, 2016, 07:00:01 AM
More Enescu:

(https://img.discogs.com/p6fZAy9kJPV0W5VojAykpFXsMLE=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-7505896-1442871650-5991.jpeg.jpg)

I love the sonatas.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 13, 2016, 07:07:34 AM
His piano music is rather underrated and undeservedly so.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/076/MI0001076667.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0002/926/MI0002926611.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

The latter has 3 CD.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: ritter on May 13, 2016, 09:27:21 AM
His piano music is rather underrated and undeservedly so.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/076/MI0001076667.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0002/926/MI0002926611.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

The latter has 3 CD.
There's also this recent set, which is more complete than the Petrescu (as it includes the Sonata Movement in F-sharp minor--which is ensetially an early version of the first movement of the First Sonata):



The Third piano sonata is a stunning work, and a perennial favourite in my case! That central movement, andantino cantabile, is really something! Wow!
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: king ubu on May 17, 2016, 04:30:06 AM
Got the Stirbat set a few weeks ago - first impression is that it's very good!

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/027/MI0001027779.jpg)

Actually, Enescu's third violin sonata, in the recording by Ida Haendel/Vladimir Ashkenazy, was one of my main entry points into classical, about four years ago. Another favorite version can be found on this wonderful disc:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/014/MI0003014630.jpg)

I have still to start digging into this here, bought along with the Stirbat piano set:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/752/MI0003752095.jpg)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 17, 2016, 04:35:18 AM



(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/752/MI0003752095.jpg)

Wishlisted, thank you gentlemen.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: king ubu on May 17, 2016, 04:44:02 AM
There are other recordings of the works for violin and piano, at least one more that also states to be complete.

Here's a review of the Hänssler set:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Nov14/Enescu_violin_98035.htm

I also have this one, but found it somewhat perfunctory (would need to re-listen though):
http://www.classical-music.com/review/enescu-violin-sonatas-nos-1-3
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Ken B on May 21, 2016, 07:52:04 AM
Where's the Hummel?  No better example of a transitional composer.

With all the talk of Romania and movies I recommend the documentary Chuck Norris vs  Communism.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on May 28, 2016, 02:18:15 AM
Inspiration.

(http://s33.postimg.org/g01au2r4f/r_Vlach_peasant_girl.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0c10LO_HfM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0c10LO_HfM)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on June 04, 2016, 03:41:10 PM
Florestan, your thread is on life-support very early on.   :-X
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on June 04, 2016, 11:10:19 PM
Florestan, your thread is on life-support very early on.   :-X

I didn't expect otherwise.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on June 05, 2016, 01:34:49 AM
In the south-east, they use the old mother-tongue - but there have been changes since 1350 A.D., mostly due to Turkish occupation for a couple of centuries, then English rock 'n' roll.  STILL, it is one of the oldest European languages that exists today compared to more primitive times.

Mihail Eminescu was born at Ipotesti in northern Moldavia on Jan. 15, 1850.  Eminescu concentrated in his work the entire evolution of Romanian national poetry. One of the most illustrative poems of his early years (1866-1873) is "Angel and Demon." The overwhelming influences on his poetry of this period were from Shakespeare and Lord Byron.

The ever deeper influence of Romanian folklore, his close contact with German philosophy and romanticism in the years 1872 to 1874 is evident.

       ANGEL AND DEMON

Blackness of the cathedral dome, saddened by the yellow light
Of waxen candles shimmering, which burn before the altars face;
While in the dark and spacious vault, unpenetrated realms of space
Defy the tapers' tired eyes that strain to probe unconquered night.

And empty is the twilight church, save where, upon the marble stair,
A child who like an angel kneels with deeply bowed and feruent head.
Upon the altar stands, amidst the rosy light the tapers shed,
With calm, pale face and gentle mean an image of the virgin fair.

Within a sconce upon the wall a guttering candle burns and drips
And gleaming drops of molten pitch hiss as they fall upon the ground,
While wreaths of dry and withered flowers emit a gentle rustling sound,
And the maiden's secret prayer rests silently upon her lips.

Sunk in the outer ring of dark, a marble cross his form concealing,
Wrapped in the shadow's heavy cloak, "He" like a demon silent stands,
His elbows resting on the cross and hanging down his tapered hands,
His eyes deep sunken in his head, his furrowed brow strange grief revealing.

Against the crosse's chilly neck his burning cheek he thoughtfully lays;
About its snowy arms is looped his long and raven hair.
The sad light of the candle glow scarce reaches to the corner where;
Upon his draw and pallid face fall feebly its yellow rays.

She ... an angel praying heaven-" He"... demon wrapped in woes;
She ...the pure, the golden hearted-"He"...not heeding heaven's loss.
He ...in deathly shadow leaning on the cold arms of the cross-
While from the sad Madonna's feet "her" simple prayer to heaven goes.

Upon the wall by which she kneels, the high cool wall of marble fine
That shines as does the mountain snow, that as calm water turns the light,
Clearly as on a mirror falls the shadow of that maiden white,
Her bending shadow, like herself, kneeling in prayer before the shrine.

O what can ail thee, maiden sweet ,with thy so gentle noble mien ?
Pale is thy face as is the snow, and pale as wax thy tapered hands.
As river mist shot through with stars that on the hills at evening stands,
So shine thy innocent ,soft eyes ,beneath their veiling lashes seen.

Angel thou art, yet something lacks; an angel's tall, star-spattered wings.
But as I gaze I see take shape about your shoulders flying lines;
What are they, trembling in the air? Whence come these feathery designs?
An angel's pinion in the dusk towards the gate of heaven springs.

O, but the shadow is not hers ;her guardian angel hovers there;
Against the whiteness of the wall I see his radiant figure tower.
Over the maiden's sinless life he watches with celestial power,
And as she bows her head to pray, he too is bowed in fervent prayer.

But if this be an angle's wing, then "She" too angel is; for though
The air brightness of her wings is not revealed to eyes of man,
These walls alone, where age-long prayer has been poured out in worship, can
Proclaim to us her angelhood and of her wings existence show.

I love, I love thee fain would cry the demon from the twilight shade,
But the winged shadow guarding her the utterance of his spirit sealed.
The passion died upon his lips; in worship not in love he kneeled
And heard across the hollow nave her timid murmur as she prayed.

... 

"She"? A princess fair as day, a crown of stars upon her head,
An angle in a woman's guise, going her happy way trough life.
"He" A rebel of mankind, blowing to flame the sparks of strife
And sowing hate in hopeless breasts that to revolt by him are led.

Their ways of life are worlds apart, deep oceans lie between these twain,
Between them barricades of thought, the better bloodshed of a race.
And yet at times their journeys cross, they meet each other face to face,
Their eyes seek out each other's soul and mingle with a curious pain.

With gentle yet absorbing gaze, her large and starlike deep blue eyes
Rest thoughtfully on his that do the tempest and the lightning show.
While on his pallid face there mount emotions warm and tender glow.
They love ... and yet what worlds apart, what universe between them lies.

A monarch pale has come from far, a time old, crown he humbly brings;
The victor in a hundred wars, his conquests would he make her own.
He begs to lead her as his bride along the carpet to his throne
And place within her tiny hand the sceptre of the king of kings.

But no, with parted lips she turns and does not speak the fatal word;
Her heart is silent in her breast and from the king she draws her hands,
Her virgin soul is filed with love, while in her dreams there ever stands
The demon's image like a god, for every night his voice she heard.

She seems to see him leading men with words of fire, with winged ideas;
How brave, how powerful, how grand - she thought in lovers' proud delight;
He leading on the rising age to conquer and to claim its right
Against the lifeless piled up weight of wisdom that experience rears.

She saw him standing on a rock, wrapt like a garment with his wrath
As with his banner's scarlet folds; his beetling forehead deeply scoured
As though a black tempestuous night when all the host of hell's aboard.
Out of his eyes the lightning gleamed, intoxicating words poured forth.

...

On a bed of boards the young man lies stretched in the agony of death,
Beside his couch a dim lamp burns, its poor thin wick and meagre flame
Struggle against the cold damp air. No man has ever heard his name,
None comes to ease his bitter lot, or wet his lips that choke for breath.

O past are the days when in the world the thunder of his voice would roll
Against the written codes of law, against the laws that bound and maimed,
And slew men in the name of God...today the world's revenge is aimed
Upon the dying heretic, and stifles out his stricken soul.

To die bereft of every hope, what man is there on earth who knows 
The awful meaning of these words? To feel enslaved and weak and small,
To fight and hope and see your plans shrivelled to nothing after all,
To know that in the world is throned an evil force none may oppose.

Your years were spent in strife with wrong, and you a useless fight have fought,
And now you die and see your life was wrecked in work without avail,
Such death is Hell. More bitter tears than these ne'er coursed the visage pale 
Of dying man. How cruel to know that you and all the world are naught.

Such black thoughts rising in his breast delay the death for which he yearns.
With what great gifts has he been born. What passionate love of right and truth, 
What sympathy for human kind, and all the lofty flame of youth.
Behold his recompense at last, this agony with which he burns.

But into that narrow tawdry room, breaking the mist that veiled his eye,
A silver shadow softly creeps; behold, an angel shape comes near,
Sits lightly on the wretched bed, kisses away each blinding tear
From those dimmed eyes; and now the mist is torn away in ecstasy.

Aye, it is She. And with what joy, joy fathomless, before unknown,
He gazes in his angel's face and reads love's tender pity there.
With long glance he is rapaid all his life's anguish and despair.
He whispers with his dying breath : "My love i know thee for my own.

I who have laboured all my life poor and helpless souls to move,
Warring against the open skies with all my burning discontent;
A demon, yet not cursed by God, for in my dying hour he sent
His angel here to give me peace, and of his peace the name is love".




Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on June 05, 2016, 04:01:55 AM
In the south-east, they use the old mother-tongue - but there have been changes since 1350 A.D., mostly due to Turkish occupation for a couple of centuries, then English rock 'n' roll.  STILL, it is one of the oldest European languages that exists today compared to more primitive times.

Are you talking about Romanian? Because if you are, you are not quite right: the biggest influence post-1350 was neither Turkish (despite widespread misconceptions, neither Wallachia, nor Moldavia, nor Transylvania --- the three main historical ingredients of contemporary Romania --- were ever part of the Ottoman Empire, much less under Turkish occupation for centuries; they were autonomous principalities under Ottoman suzerainty, but how limited this in fact was is shown by the fact that, for instance, on Wallachian and Moldavian territory the building of mosques was strictly and perpetually forbidden, and so was the operation of Turkish businesses) nor Greek (which is was the native language of the rulers of Wallachia and Moldavia since early 18th century until 1821, see Phanariotes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phanariotes)), although of course there are many words of Turkish and Greek origin in the language. The main influences which in the second half of the 19th century shaped the modern Romanian language were first and foremost French, and to a lesser extent Italian. In the last two decades of the present century, English has also had an influence, especially on the business and IT related vocabulary.

Historically, though, the two main ingredients of the Romanian language are vulgar Latin and Southern Slavic.

Quote
Mihail Eminescu

That's a whole different topic that I will cover in another post.

Thanks for being interested in this thread and trying to keep it alive.  :-*
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on June 05, 2016, 06:33:48 AM
Yes, nationalistically, that is the least-painful line.  However, historians generally consider your areas as part of the O.E., whether militarily occupied or not:

(http://s33.postimg.org/ru9ajsy67/Europe_1519_AD.jpg)

and jumping ahead a few centuries:

(http://s33.postimg.org/pb8frrthb/Untitled_Image_2.jpg)

TURK !!!    :P   8)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on June 05, 2016, 08:22:46 AM
Yes, nationalistically, that is the least-painful line.

There's nothing nationalist about it. It is an exact, verifiable historical fact.

Quote
However, historians generally consider your areas as part of the O.E., whether militarily occupied or not:

Those historians who consider Wallachia, Moldavia or Transylvania as parts of the Ottoman Empire proper are intellectually lazy. Under Ottoman suzerainty, yes; under Ottoman sovereignty, never.

Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Ken B on June 05, 2016, 11:23:19 AM
"The world needs more Canada." -- Bono

"The world needs more Romania." -- Ken B
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on June 08, 2016, 06:07:22 AM
Vlach heaven.

(http://s33.postimg.org/3q82m4h67/Romanian_beginnings.jpg)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on June 16, 2016, 04:00:05 AM
Your child is dying from neglect, Florestan!!!!!!!      $:)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on June 21, 2016, 05:03:18 AM
Today be the anniversary.

(http://www.romanianstudies.org/content/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/transylvania-revolution-1848Skirmish_during_Hungarian_Revolution_1848-1849.png)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on June 21, 2016, 05:07:15 AM
Today be the anniversary.

Of what?
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on June 27, 2016, 01:49:49 AM
The great English Romantic poet, Lord Byron, went to Greece to fight in their war (thin straw of relevance to this thread).

Future English territorial expansions - circa 2022:

(http://s33.postimg.org/glbd24xbj/landings.jpg)

(http://s33.postimg.org/45x0rcxin/carve_up_Romania.jpg)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2016, 02:05:15 AM
Scion, you're trying hard to emulate snyprrr but it's a long, long way to Tipperary...  ;D

As for your avatar, at least pick one featuring the Romanian flag. To the best of my knowledge, horizontal black, red, yellow is the flag of no nation under the sun.  :laugh:

Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on June 27, 2016, 02:12:58 AM
Hey, she's a blonde Romanian model - you need to cut her a little slack.   :P
That must be the post-EU nationalist Romanian flag!
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2016, 02:17:47 AM
Hey, she's a blonde Romanian model - you need to cut her a little slack.   :P«»

Her name being...?

Quote
That most be the post-EU nationalist Romanian flag!

Our flag is nationalist enough, thank you.

And the slogan is stupid. Lesser Romania was created with the decisive help of the non-Romanian Napoleon III, Greater Romania with the decisive help of the non-Romanian Woodrow Wilson (not to mention the non-Romanian General Henri-Matthias Berthelot). The non-Romanian Karl von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen aka King Carol I was perhaps the greatest ruler we had, followed quite closely by his non-Romanian nephew and successor, King Ferdinand. The latter's non-Romanian wife Queen Mary nee Princess Mary of Edinburgh is one of the major diplomatic makers of Greater Romania.

If Romania would be only for Romanians then the non-Romanian Prince Charles would not be able to visit his beloved Transylvanian estate, actually he wouldn't have any more Transylvanian estate to begin with.   ;D

Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on June 27, 2016, 02:24:25 AM
Transylvania will be returned to Hungary in the New Order !!!!!!!!!!!!!

(http://cdn.playbuzz.com/cdn/5323a224-bfb1-4900-b4b2-e6a32be8bb03/c1170eda-7171-4052-8180-89385cc67e33.jpg)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2016, 02:26:31 AM
Transylvania will be returned to Hungary in the New Order !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Still not woken up from your wet dreams?
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on June 27, 2016, 04:40:20 AM
Will this thread ever recover?   ;D
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Cato on June 27, 2016, 05:00:44 AM
Transylvania will be returned to Hungary in the New Order !!!!!!!!!!!!!

(http://cdn.playbuzz.com/cdn/5323a224-bfb1-4900-b4b2-e6a32be8bb03/c1170eda-7171-4052-8180-89385cc67e33.jpg)

If she is in the New Order, sign me up!!!  ;)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2016, 05:36:32 AM
Will this thread ever recover?   ;D

Post something of substance on topic and cross your fingers.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Cato on June 27, 2016, 05:52:11 AM
Will this thread ever recover?   ;D

Post something of substance on topic and cross your fingers.



(http://cdn.playbuzz.com/cdn/5323a224-bfb1-4900-b4b2-e6a32be8bb03/c1170eda-7171-4052-8180-89385cc67e33.jpg)

My fingers are now crossed!   ;)

But to be on topic in a different way...

I was reading a biography of Louis Vierne, whose training included instruction by Cesar Franck, Charles-Marie Widor, Alexandre Guilmant, Theodore Dubois and others who would be considered "Romantic-era" composers.

Vierne, however, might be considered "Post-Romantic."

So what is the basis for considering a composer "Romantic" vs. "Post-Romantic."  Is it simply a matter of being born later in the century, e.g. 1860 or so, or a matter of chromaticism in the musical style, or both, plus other factors?
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Ken B on June 27, 2016, 05:54:40 AM
My fingers are now crossed!   ;)

But to be on topic in a different way...

I was reading a biography of Louis Vierne, whose training included instruction by Cesar Franck, Charles-Marie Widor, Alexandre Guilmant, Theodore Dubois and others who would be considered "Romantic-era" composers.

Vierne, however, might be considered "Post-Romantic."

So what is the basis for considering a composer "Romantic" vs. "Post-Romantic."  Is it simply a matter of being born later in the century, e.g. 1860 or so, or a matter of chromaticism in the musical style, or both, plus other factors?

So basically you are asking when someone leaves the Romantics: Romexit. Will Florestan inveigh against such miscreants?  ;) >:D

Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Mirror Image on June 27, 2016, 10:11:04 AM
 
If she is in the New Order, sign me up!!!  ;)

+1 !!!!
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on June 27, 2016, 07:50:36 PM
So what is the basis for considering a composer "Romantic" vs. "Post-Romantic."  Is it simply a matter of being born later in the century, e.g. 1860 or so, or a matter of chromaticism in the musical style, or both, plus other factors?

Basically, yes.  Almost all the music literature I've read - from textbooks to just muso pamphlets and books, calls post-Romantic that music which harkens back to the music of the Romantic era that was composed post-Second Viennese School - or thereabouts.  I would say it falls under the "I don't know how to define it, but I know it when I see/hear it."
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Scion7 on July 04, 2016, 09:17:03 AM
(http://s33.postimg.org/6jf55583j/image.jpg)

Why am I in The Diner?  I'm a POET, dammit!
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Cato on October 25, 2016, 09:40:39 AM
So today, for my 7th Grade Latin students, I was playing excerpts of the Dies Irae from the Requiem Mass, and began with the original plainchant by (maybe) Thomas of Celano, and then I went to Mozart's and then Verdi's.

One of the boys said that he much preferred the original plainchant, as did several others, which is an interesting contrast to previous years, where Verdi's Romantic version was usually chosen as the preferred one, and the original was left shivering in oblivion.  A highly intelligent girl said of the Verdi: "I think it's just too much showing off."  She also thought the Mozart, (full of Sturm und Drang in the beginning at least) was somewhat overdone.

Later I asked the boy what it was about the original which attracted him, and he said he thought it was the way the sounds echoed away, its "quiet" nature was mentioned, and he liked the melody more!  0:)

So, Medieval Composer 1, Verdi and Mozart - 0  ???  as far as this boy and some others were concerned!

I thought the idea of a great, bigger-than-life Romantic work like the Verdi Requiem being passed over in favor of plainchant would be of interest here.  I doubt that I have stumbled across a trend in the newest generation, even among a minority, but...

The recording is from the NAXOS Ego Sum Resurrectio: I find the performance too fast actually, but nicely done nevertheless.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: North Star on October 25, 2016, 01:05:30 PM
So today, for my 7th Grade Latin students, I was playing excerpts of the Dies Irae from the Requiem Mass, and began with the original plainchant by (maybe) Thomas of Celano, and then I went to Mozart's and then Verdi's.

One of the boys said that he much preferred the original plainchant, as did several others, which is an interesting contrast to previous years, where Verdi's Romantic version was usually chosen as the preferred one, and the original was left shivering in oblivion.  A highly intelligent girl said of the Verdi: "I think it's just too much showing off."  She also thought the Mozart, (full of Sturm und Drang in the beginning at least) was somewhat overdone.

Later I asked the boy what it was about the original which attracted him, and he said he thought it was the way the sounds echoed away, its "quiet" nature was mentioned, and he liked the melody more!  0:)

So, Medieval Composer 1, Verdi and Mozart - 0  ???  as far as this boy and some others were concerned!

I thought the idea of a great, bigger-than-life Romantic work like the Verdi Requiem being passed over in favor of plainchant would be of interest here.  I doubt that I have stumbled across a trend in the newest generation, even among a minority, but...

The recording is from the NAXOS Ego Sum Resurrectio: I find the performance too fast actually, but nicely done nevertheless.
You mean to say you left out the Britten?! ;)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Cato on October 25, 2016, 03:13:15 PM
You mean to say you left out the Britten?! ;)

Sorry, not enough time!  8) 

Later in the school year, for the 8th Grade, I think I will try the Symphonia Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei by Elliott Carter.  I have used it now and then with not bad results.  The students translate part of the text, and then I play excerpts.

Romanticism would not be involved with that work...or would it? ???

If we agree that a certain lionization of the "Irrational" (usually seen as a reaction against the Enlightenment) is a hallmark of the 19th-century Romantics, then I do wonder more and more about the complaints against many of our 20th-century composers, as well as our contemporary ones.  The more I listen to them and our contemporary ones, I find that there is a great deal of expression of the "irrational" side, despite all the mathematical blather one sees in analyses about permutations, set theory, etc.   And if I see Webern's music described one more time as "cerebral" I will reach for my revolver!  :o ??? ;)

Because in the end the ultimate question is...how does it sound?  And when I hear e.g. Hartmann's Sixth and Seventh Symphonies, the Shostakovich Tenth, Wyschnegradsky's assorted quarter-tone works, Penderecki's Threnody, Ovchinnikov's Symphony #1, Explosante-fixe by Boulez, Saariaho's L'Amour de Loin, our own Luke Ottevanger's piano  works and Karl Henning's Annabel Lee or Out in the Sun, I believe that I hear an expressivity that will rival that of the Romantics, whether traditional tonality is used, stretched, or even meticulously avoided, and whether these composers sneer at the notions of the Romantics or not.

I realize, of course, that many do not hear this emotional intensity because of the composers' non-Romantic idiom: my own unsuccessful attempt to interest people in my quarter-tone efforts (I lost count of the wrinkled noses and incredulous faces I saw, as soon as the first notes were sounded) gave witness to this fact.  Again, despite that, I viewed my own oeuvre, no matter how experimental (e.g. 19-tone quarter-tone scales), as a descendant of the Romantic heritage of the 19th century.

That applies also to certain of my novels as well!  0:)
 
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: North Star on October 26, 2016, 12:12:44 PM
Sorry, not enough time!  8) 

Later in the school year, for the 8th Grade, I think I will try the Symphonia Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei by Elliott Carter.  I have used it now and then with not bad results.  The students translate part of the text, and then I play excerpts.

Romanticism would not be involved with that work...or would it? ???

If we agree that a certain lionization of the "Irrational" (usually seen as a reaction against the Enlightenment) is a hallmark of the 19th-century Romantics, then I do wonder more and more about the complaints against many of our 20th-century composers, as well as our contemporary ones.  The more I listen to them and our contemporary ones, I find that there is a great deal of expression of the "irrational" side, despite all the mathematical blather one sees in analyses about permutations, set theory, etc.   And if I see Webern's music described one more time as "cerebral" I will reach for my revolver!  :o ??? ;)

Because in the end the ultimate question is...how does it sound?  And when I hear e.g. Hartmann's Sixth and Seventh Symphonies, the Shostakovich Tenth, Wyschnegradsky's assorted quarter-tone works, Penderecki's Threnody, Ovchinnikov's Symphony #1, Explosante-fixe by Boulez, Saariaho's L'Amour de Loin, our own Luke Ottevanger's piano  works and Karl Henning's Annabel Lee or Out in the Sun, I believe that I hear an expressivity that will rival that of the Romantics, whether traditional tonality is used, stretched, or even meticulously avoided, and whether these composers sneer at the notions of the Romantics or not.

I realize, of course, that many do not hear this emotional intensity because of the composers' non-Romantic idiom: my own unsuccessful attempt to interest people in my quarter-tone efforts (I lost count of the wrinkled noses and incredulous faces I saw, as soon as the first notes were sounded) gave witness to this fact.  Again, despite that, I viewed my own oeuvre, no matter how experimental (e.g. 19-tone quarter-tone scales), as a descendant of the Romantic heritage of the 19th century.

That applies also to certain of my novels as well!  0:)
Yes, interesting indeed. I agree that separating what is called Modernism from Romanticism can be rather unfortunate, artificial and arbitrary, as - like you say - often the Modernists are just using new methods to reach higher planes of expressiveness, which indeed is as Romantic a goal as any.

(Oh, and you should have played the Stravinsky Dies irae from Requiem Canticles. . . time is not an excuse for leaving that one out ;))
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Cato on October 26, 2016, 12:57:49 PM
Yes, interesting indeed. I agree that separating what is called Modernism from Romanticism can be rather unfortunate, artificial and arbitrary, as - like you say - often the Modernists are just using new methods to reach higher planes of expressiveness, which indeed is as Romantic a goal as any.

(Oh, and you should have played the Stravinsky Dies irae from Requiem Canticles. . . time is not an excuse for leaving that one out ;))

Well, perhaps tomorrow I might take care of that gap!  ;)

Concerning my previous thoughts (and many thanks for the comments!), I must mention Mr. Modernist Pierre Boulez, because in one of the Mahler topics his marvelous recording of the complete Das Klagende Lied.  This recording (from 1970 I believe), along with his incredible effort with Schoenberg's Gurrelieder around the same time, mark the man at c. age 45 as having more than a toe or two in the "Romantic" pool.  And in his later years, we find him not averse at all to conducting Mahler again (a complete cycle), along with several of the Bruckner symphonies.

Speaking of Bruckner...

...from an interview with Boulez 5 years ago:

Quote
Incises is a very short piece, and sur Incises is one of your longest. Have you been surprised by yourself, by how long it became?

Boulez: Yes, I was surprised; although it really wasn’t surprising, since it was my tendency during that period to get rid of short forms and go for long forms. So I was ready to organise a long form, for sure. And it was the same for Derive II – I wanted to make a long statement.

Will you be proceeding in this direction in upcoming ensemble works?

Boulez: I suppose that now, for me, the ideal would be to compose a work with long moments and very short moments. And for a long time now, I have been thinking about trying to find contrast within a piece itself – to have strong moments, very long, and to have light, concentrated moments … I once said, when I was asked that question, that it was like marrying Bruckner with Webern.

How did your conducting of Bruckner influence your point of view on the long form?

Boulez: That was very important. I like his harmonic writing, which supports long development – at the end of the slow movement of the 9th, for instance (when the melodic line repeats and it’s very large). But this is less important to me than the segments which are there, because for me, the segments are too visible. But that’s not only a point of view – it’s a difference of centuries, not a difference of personalities. And I find that if the segments are too visible, you miss the point....

But Bruckner’s influence is surprising, since Bruckner wasn't part of French musical culture – at least not while you were growing up.

Boulez: Bruckner wasn’t even performed at all, and even as late as when Karajan brought along a symphony by Bruckner when he came on tour with the Berlin Philharmonic, the reaction in some of the papers was, “why did he bring this monster?” And even Messiaenthough you can imagine that there are some very strange ties between the universe of Messiaen and the universe of BrucknerMessiaen said, “oh, Bruckner, that’s a lot of bridges.” Now in French, when you have a transition from one section to another one, you call that a bridge. And for Messiaen, Bruckner’s music was simply one of transition after transition after transition. And that’s very strange, and the French are indeed sometimes complete strangers to ways of musical thinking that are not native to their own practice....

My emphasis above.

See:

http://www.universaledition.com/news-en/newsdetail-en/items/boulez-interview (http://www.universaledition.com/news-en/newsdetail-en/items/boulez-interview)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: San Antone on October 31, 2016, 03:11:40 AM
"If the resonating ideas of the Enlightenment were reason, truth, nature, order, and objectivity, those of the coming Romantics would be the subjective, the instinctive, the uncanny, the sublime, and nature in its great and terrible face. As one essential Romantic writer, E. T. A. Hoffmann, put it, “Beethoven’s music sets in motion the mechanism of fear, of awe, of horror, of suffering, and wakens just that infinite longing which is the essence of Romanticism.” The Aufklärung looked to a radiant future of social and scientific perfection; the Romantics looked to the fabled, mysterious, unreachable past. The eighteenth century longed for freedom and happiness. The nineteenth century was caught up not in longing toward an end but in longing for the delirium and pain of longing itself."

Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph by Jan Swafford
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Cato on October 31, 2016, 03:54:02 AM
"If the resonating ideas of the Enlightenment were reason, truth, nature, order, and objectivity, those of the coming Romantics would be the subjective, the instinctive, the uncanny, the sublime, and nature in its great and terrible face. As one essential Romantic writer, E. T. A. Hoffmann, put it, “Beethoven’s music sets in motion the mechanism of fear, of awe, of horror, of suffering, and wakens just that infinite longing which is the essence of Romanticism.” The Aufklärung looked to a radiant future of social and scientific perfection; the Romantics looked to the fabled, mysterious, unreachable past. The eighteenth century longed for freedom and happiness. The nineteenth century was caught up not in longing toward an end but in longing for the delirium and pain of longing itself."

Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph by Jan Swafford

Very nice!

It has become a cliche' among historians that the earthquake in Lisbon (November 1, 1755) also shook the Enlightenment, and thereby catalyzed the Romantic movement.  This is not entirely true, of course, but is not entirely wrong either.

Becoming conscious of Nature's chaotic essence, the creators, intellectuals, etc. in the Enlightenment were undoubtedly affected by the event.  However, consider that Goethe was only 6 years old at the time, and other Romantics were not yet born.  (e.g.  Proto-Romantic  ???  Mozart was born a year later.)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Jo498 on October 31, 2016, 04:39:22 AM
And Goethe was mostly critical of the younger generation of romantics... in German cultural history we are taught Lessing, Goethe and Schiller as "Klassiker". This stuff is always far more overlapping and complicated than the textbook clichés.
Beethoven seems clearly on the "enlightenment" side with Fidelio, 9th symphony and his staunch stance against Metternich's restauration. (There is an interpretation of the 9th symphony that takes Beethoven's remark about a "state of despair" (verzweiflungsvoller Zustand), depicted in the first movement as his take on the post-1815 restauration and apparently he was sometimes so outspoken in the pub that friends feared he might get into trouble with Metternich's secret police.)
And Hoffmann called composers we don't think of as "romantic" at all romantic, basically what we call Viennese classicism, namely Haydn, Mozart (and Gluck for his late operas).

Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Cato on October 31, 2016, 05:52:03 AM
And Goethe was mostly critical of the younger generation of romantics... in German cultural history we are taught Lessing, Goethe and Schiller as "Klassiker". This stuff is always far more overlapping and complicated than the textbook clichés.

And Hoffmann called composers we don't think of as "romantic" at all romantic, basically what we call Viennese classicism, namely Haydn, Mozart (and Gluck for his late operas).

Very interesting, for my professors taught us that Goethe's Die Leiden des Jungen Werthers, along with things like Schiller's Die Räuber were some of the first shots to announce the arrival of Romanticism.

And I think Hoffmann was not wrong in his judgment: and he would know of what he speaks, (one would think): Hoffmann himself is seen as The Ultimate Romantic!
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Jo498 on October 31, 2016, 06:24:09 AM
You are not wrong, but these early "Sturm und Drang" pieces ("Goetz von Berlichingen" (about a nobleman supporting the peasant uprisings in 16th century Germany) is another early Goethe play often classified thus) are exceptions to some extent.
At least Goethe and Schiller wrote rather different stuff later on, especially Schiller is also often closely connected to Kantian philosophy and aesthetics, all still parts of "Aufklärung". For this younger generation (like Schiller *1759) the terreur in the aftermath of the French Revolution apparently had a similar function to the Lisbon desastre for the older enlightenment thinkers, but of course more concerning the political philosophy and it tempered their attitudes. The fight for liberty in William Tell is considerably more level-headed than the enthusiasm of "Die Räuber" and mostly against wilful tyrrany.

Goethe is really hard to classify. In the famous encounter with Beethoven at Teplitz he almost seems like representing the Ancién régime; after all he was secretary/minister at the Weimar court. He really disliked some of the younger romantics (like Kleist, I think) but admired others (like Lord Byron). In his natural philosophy (plants, anatomy and colors) he was more of a romantic, arguing against reductionist mechanistic philosophy. He probably also held some sort of spinozist pantheism (which would place him closer to the Romantics than to the atheist/skeptic (Hobbes, Hume, LaMettrie etc.) or deist (Locke, Kant) enlightenment philosophers. A truly universal mind but very hard to pin down.

You are certainly right about Hoffmann being an archromantic himself (and a somewhat tragic figure who had to keep working as law clerk because he could not establish himself permanently as music director somewhere and apparently drank himself to death).
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on November 01, 2016, 12:55:49 AM
My theory is that "romanticism" (small r intentionally) is first and foremost a state of mind and a penchant of the heart, a psychological predisposition, a forma mentis, a Weltanschauung if you will which is rather inborn and little, if at all, dependent on external factors. One does not become a romantic, one is born as such; the place, the time, the general stage of civilization and the milieu one is born into can surely stiffle or encourage the latent romanticism but they can neither produce nor extinguish it altogether. One does not even have to be an artist or philosopher in order to be a romantic.

I submit to your consideration the following quotes, which imho are as good a romantic / Romantic ars poetica as anything coming from the pen of Victor Hugo or Berlioz

Et quod nunc ratio est impetus ante fuit. - Ovid, Remedia amoris, 10.

Si vis me flere, dolendum est primum ipsi tibi. - Horace, Ars poetica, 102.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Ken B on November 01, 2016, 08:07:07 AM

Et quod nunc ratio est impetus ante fuit. - Ovid, Remedia amoris, 10.


Lot of fuiting in Ovid. At it like rabbits in most of his stuff.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on November 01, 2016, 08:26:03 AM
Lot of fuiting in Ovid. At it like rabbits in most of his stuff.

Huh?
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Cato on November 01, 2016, 08:35:11 AM
Huh?

A Latin pun on "fuit" (has been) with the obscene verb "futuo" which I will not translate.  (The verb does appear in certain poets.)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on November 01, 2016, 08:41:39 AM
I was pretty sure.  :D

A Latin pun on "fuit" (has been) with the obscene verb "futuo" which I will not translate.  (The verb does appear in certain poets.)

You don't have to translate it. The Romanian verb "a fute" comes directly from "futuo".  :laugh:

Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Cato on November 01, 2016, 10:32:56 AM
I was pretty sure.  :D

You don't have to translate it. The Romanian verb "a fute" comes directly from "futuo".  :laugh:

My first Romanian verb...and look what it is!  ;)

Ken B. has created a rather "eroteric" pun for us!  ???
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Ken B on November 01, 2016, 11:54:04 AM
I was pretty sure.  :D

You don't have to translate it. The Romanian verb "a fute" comes directly from "futuo".  :laugh:

Live and learn. I had just assumed you were just misspelling flute in those PMs ...

 ;)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on April 25, 2017, 11:33:03 AM
Some thoughts I've been ruminating on over the the weekend.


One of the most interesting topics in cultural history --- well, at least for me --- is twofold:
(1) what music did Wackenroder, Tieck and Novalis listen to,

and

(2) how did they listen to it.

The literary and philosophical writings of these early German Romantics were seminal for forging an unprecedently exalted appraisal of, role for, and significance of, purely instrumental music. Prior to their 's simultaneously (and in the case of Wackenroder and Tieck, cooperatively) formulating strikingly new and bold / wild ideas on that kind of music, its reception was oscillating between downright incomprehension (cf. Fontenelle: Sonate, que me veux tu?) and downright dismissal (cf. Kant: more entertainment than culture). Both these attitudes stemmed from the fact that purely instrumental music lacks any connection with words, ie with the conceptual world of ideas, and as such it is fundamentally ambiguous and indeterminate --- as the selfsame Kant put it, the moment the music stops there is nothing left to be considered by the mind, as opposed to books or paintings. (more on this later).

Now, Wackenroder, Tieck and Novalis built their musical philosophy exactly on this ambiguity and indetermination, turning it upside down. It is precisely because of these characteristics, precisely of its lack of any grounding in, and dependence on, the physical world (I'm oversymplifying here for the sake of argument --- in fact, at least Wackenroder & Tieck were explicitly aware that music is grounded in, and dependent on, (1) metal, wood and catguts, and (2) the imagination of a human being) that music is the perfect expression of the human condition, the supreme art towards whose condition all other arts could and should only aspire.

Drat --- I mean, Himmelherrgott! I can't find right now the online pdf article which I've been reading last Saturday, where Carl Dahlhaus iirc was quoted to the effect of writing that [Wackenroder / Tieck thoght of] musical techniques not as rational means of construction and expression but as occult mysteries. This is probably true, and begging the question: what music were they listening to, and how?

Problem is, there are preciously few and far between references to any specifical musical works in their writings, though. The Wackenroder / Tieck cooperatively work Outpourings of an Art-Loving Friar (of which the most pedantic scholarship has had difficulty in establishing who wrote what section) nominally mentions only Johann Friedrich Reichardt's Macbeth Overture, while Novalis is reported to have died shortly after hearing (unspecified) Mozart's music being played to him.
 
Now, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that in the 1790s in the German States one had very few options when it came to listening to music. There were actually only 3 options:

(1) one could play the music oneself --- in this respect we know that Wackenroder was as accomplished a keyboard player as to have being asked for, and himself considering, performing publicly a Haydn concerto (never came to being, though), while Tieck's attempt at performing music were disastrous.

(2) one was member of a close circle of friends who gathered weekly and performed music --- to my knowledge there is no credible source documenting this.

(3) one was attending public concerts --- I have been able to read no credible online sources documenting public concert life in Berlin ca. 1795, that is, the time and place of Wackenroder and Tieck.

(to be continued -- any thoughts and comments warmly welcome!)











Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Jo498 on April 25, 2017, 11:37:15 PM
I cannot quite help with Tieck/Wackenroder, only that I also recall that at least some of the music that inspired them supposedly was by Reichardt and others who are almost forgotten (except as mere names) today.
We do have lots of material from E.T.A. Hoffmann who is in the same generation but writing somewhat later in the 1800s and 1810s. Unlike the others mentioned he was an accomplished musician (although he had to work in law because he never secured a musical position for a sufficient time to make a living). The central text is the the famous extended review of Beethoven's 5th (Beethovens Instrumentalmusik).
Hoffmann definitely helped to establish the "classical triad" (or tetrad if Gluck is included) and his points of reference are usually late Mozart and Haydn as well as early and middle Beethoven (and he also knew music by Palestrina, Bach and Handel). (So unlike maybe Wackenroder he *does* refer to music we still consider of the highest quality.) The interesting point in Hoffmann is also that he basically inverses Kant's dismissal while making use of some Kantian categories. He agrees with Tieck etc. that music is not about anything in particular (he makes fun of battle and storm symphonies and the like) but that it somehow expresses "infinity" which is linked to the aesthetic category of the "sublime" for Kant and which cannot be given in words or in common experience. In that review he also uses words that remind one of "occult mysteries" (italics added by me):

"When music is discussed as an independent art, should it not be solely instrumental
music that is intended, music that scorns every aid from and mixing with any other
art (poetry), music that only expresses the distinctive and unique essence of this art?
It is the most romantic of all arts, and we could almost say the only truly romantic one
because its only subject is the infinite. Just as Orpheus’ lyre opened the gates of the
underworld, music unlocks for mankind an unknown realm—a world with nothing
in common with the surrounding outer world of the senses. Here we abandon definite
feelings and surrender to an inexpressible longing."

"Thus Beethoven’s instrumental music opens to us the realm of the monstrous and
immeasurable
. Glowing rays shoot through the deep night of this realm, and we sense
giant shadows surging to and fro, closing in on us until they destroy us, but not the pain
of unending longing
in which every desire that has risen quickly in joyful tones sinks
and expires. Only with this pain of love, hope, joy—which consumes but does not
destroy, which would burst asunder our breasts with a mightily impassioned chord—we
live on, enchanted seers of the ghostly world! ["entzückte Geisterseher" could also better be translated as "ecstatic visionaries", Hoffmann certainly does not mean anything spooky but seems to compare he experience of music to spiritual, visionary ecstasy]

"Thus he [Beethoven] is a purely romantic composer, and if he has had less success with vocal music, is this because vocal music excludes the character of indefinite longing and represents the emotions, which come
from the realm of the infinite, only by the definite affects of words
?"

http://www.cengage.com/music/book_content/049557273X_wrightSimms_DEMO/assets/ITOW/7273X_INT_07_ITOW_Hoffmann.pdf
http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/beethovens-instrumentalmusik-3078/1 [German]
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on April 27, 2017, 03:41:43 AM
Thanks for reading and replying, Jo.

Yes, you're of course right: Hoffmann's article on Beethoven is probably the most influential piece of musical criticism ever. I will consider him, and the article, later.

For the time being, let us return to the duo Tieck / Wackenroder.
 
Imagine: you are in Berlin in the 1790s. You are neither a professional musician, nor an aristocrat (Tieck was the son of a rope-maker who was actually the spokesman for his guild and who endeavoured to offer his offsprings the best education he could afford, which wasn't little: Ludwig's siblings Christian Friedrich and Sophie eventually became a sculptor and a poet, respectively --- while Wackenroder's father was a civil servant, if I'm not mistaken). What music are you able to listen to, how often, and in what way? I am not at all familiar with the public concert life in Berlin at the time but I suppose what one could hear was Haydn (although he was never in favor with the Berlin musical critics), Mozart, the young Beethoven and their contemporaries; from an older generation, probably Frederick The Great's favorites Quantz and Graun, and possibly CPE Bach as well. Tieck mentions nominally only this Johann Friedrich Reichardt and his Macbeth Overture (apart from a lullaby on a disc featuring Montserrat Figueras, I've never heard anything by him --- and that's actually a transcription of a Scottish tune).

But, and this is the most interesting question, at least for me: does the music of these composers warrant one waxing poetic about it with such lofty, exalted, mystical overtones? For our modern ears, the answer is probably negative. Reading Tieck and Wackenroder on music, I have the impression that they point forwards, to Schubert and Schumann and even beyond them to Brahms, Wagner, Bruckner and Mahler, rather than backwards to any composer contemporary with them or earlier.

This leaves two possibilities: either they were indeed working as prophets, describing a type of music and a way of listening to it which were yet to come --- or they heard in, and felt about, the music of their contemporaries things we are not able to hear and feel anymore, because of the cultural, social and ideological abyss that separates us from them.

It is the second hypothesis that I've been ruminating upon for many years, in various guises, and which I am convinced that it is true: these people listened to the music of their time and wrote of it as if writing about Mahler or Wagner precisely because their ears hadn't heard a note of these latter's music; for us lving in AD 2017 it is quite easy to dismiss their language as mere wild fantasizing with no background in any actual piece of music known to them, but if we try to put ourselves in their places (granted, not an easy undertaking even as a thought experiment) I think we'll be able to change, or at least challenge, some (many?) of the notions we take for granted when it comes about music and music listening.

Thanks for reading, to be continued.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2017, 04:56:12 PM
Thanks for reading and replying, Jo.

Yes, you're of course right: Hoffmann's article on Beethoven is probably the most influential piece of musical criticism ever. I will consider him, and the article, later.

For the time being, let us return to the duo Tieck / Wackenroder.
 
Imagine: you are in Berlin in the 1790s. You are neither a professional musician, nor an aristocrat (Tieck was the son of a rope-maker who was actually the spokesman for his guild and who endeavoured to offer his offsprings the best education he could afford, which wasn't little: Ludwig's siblings Christian Friedrich and Sophie eventually became a sculptor and a poet, respectively --- while Wackenroder's father was a civil servant, if I'm not mistaken). What music are you able to listen to, how often, and in what way? I am not at all familiar with the public concert life in Berlin at the time but I suppose what one could hear was Haydn (although he was never in favor with the Berlin musical critics), Mozart, the young Beethoven and their contemporaries; from an older generation, probably Frederick The Great's favorites Quantz and Graun, and possibly CPE Bach as well. Tieck mentions nominally only this Johann Friedrich Reichardt and his Macbeth Overture (apart from a lullaby on a disc featuring Montserrat Figueras, I've never heard anything by him --- and that's actually a transcription of a Scottish tune).

But, and this is the most interesting question, at least for me: does the music of these composers warrant one waxing poetic about it with such lofty, exalted, mystical overtones? For our modern ears, the answer is probably negative. Reading Tieck and Wackenroder on music, I have the impression that they point forwards, to Schubert and Schumann and even beyond them to Brahms, Wagner, Bruckner and Mahler, rather than backwards to any composer contemporary with them or earlier.

This leaves two possibilities: either they were indeed working as prophets, describing a type of music and a way of listening to it which were yet to come --- or they heard in, and felt about, the music of their contemporaries things we are not able to hear and feel anymore, because of the cultural, social and ideological abyss that separates us from them.

It is the second hypothesis that I've been ruminating upon for many years, in various guises, and which I am convinced that it is true: these people listened to the music of their time and wrote of it as if writing about Mahler or Wagner precisely because their ears hadn't heard a note of these latter's music; for us lving in AD 2017 it is quite easy to dismiss their language as mere wild fantasizing with no background in any actual piece of music known to them, but if we try to put ourselves in their places (granted, not an easy undertaking even as a thought experiment) I think we'll be able to change, or at least challenge, some (many?) of the notions we take for granted when it comes about music and music listening.

Thanks for reading, to be continued.

By being neither professional musicians nor aristocrats, Tieck and Wackenroder represented the future of music. By 1800, that lifestyle was history, only hanging on to some small extent around Beethoven and some few others. IMO, the French Revolution put the final nail in that coffin, so to speak. Even as the Wars of the Revolution raged on, the actual cultural change mandated by the overthrow of the aristo class rolled right over Prussia and the outlying parts of the Habsburg Empire.

Another major change in the perception of music is the disappearance of rhetoric as the basis for composition, and the breaking of the bond between composer, performer and listener which was the foundation of Enlightenment Era music. Now, performers played what composers wrote. And composers wrote art for art's sake. Listeners listened. They listened for the sensual enjoyment provided by the music, as one would look at a painting and enjoy whatever message it was conveying. I am not being critical here, I know you will accuse me of it, I am just pointing out that there was an essential and significant change in how music was made and perceived. Given that it was suddenly the possession of the Bourgeoisie, and performed in relatively huge concert halls nearly exclusively by professional musicians instead of being owned by the church or nobility, played in a drawing room or relatively small private venue by a mixture of amateurs and random professionals having a night off from playing at the church or opera, it is inevitable that change would be necessary.

Tieck and Wackenroder saw the shortcomings in Enlightenment thought, which were plentiful. Most importantly, they were able to see the opportunities which were around them and take advantage of the change that was in the air. Of course, Wackenroder died in 1798, so really it is Tieck who spent the next few years plowing the field of philosophy. But their work was almost entirely about art, visual art, and then literature. In looking back into an era I am more familiar with, it puts me in mind of the way music and literature followed one on another in the 1760's/'70's with Sturm und Drang. And slightly before that, an article I wrote for the Haydn Journal traced the influence of Shakespeare on music for dramas, beginning in the 1750's with Gottsched and Lessing. By 'taming' Shakespeare they made his plays usable in Germany, and the result was a surge in dramatic music.

The only musical name I can think of who would have been influential in their place and time is Zelter, a huge friend of Goethe and the man who was Schubert before Schubert came along. But I really think that it was the changing of the thought process they developed for all sorts of artists which will be their biggest influence. They may well be regarded as the 'founders of German Romanticism', but I see it as a generically philosophical attitude more than any given thing to any given art form.

BTW, and strictly for what it's worth, by the 1790's the Berliners had finally caught up with Haydn and loved him to death. Once Paris, and then London adopted him, it was OK, I guess.   :D

Please don't parse out this whole thing and analyze each sentence. I am perfectly willing to have you just call bullshit and then move on. It is just some thoughts I had... :)  I am very "Après moi, le déluge" about anything post 1800...

8)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 22, 2017, 11:51:39 PM
Another major change in the perception of music is the disappearance of rhetoric as the basis for composition, and the breaking of the bond between composer, performer and listener which was the foundation of Enlightenment Era music. Now, performers played what composers wrote. And composers wrote art for art's sake. Listeners listened. They listened for the sensual enjoyment provided by the music, as one would look at a painting and enjoy whatever message it was conveying. I am not being critical here, I know you will accuse me of it, I am just pointing out that there was an essential and significant change in how music was made and perceived. Given that it was suddenly the possession of the Bourgeoisie, and performed in relatively huge concert halls nearly exclusively by professional musicians instead of being owned by the church or nobility, played in a drawing room or relatively small private venue by a mixture of amateurs and random professionals having a night off from playing at the church or opera, it is inevitable that change would be necessary.

Yes, but what you describe above belongs to a much later period than that in which Wackenroder and Tieck cooperatively developed their new musical aesthetics (the 1790s). It applies to Mahler, Bruckner and even late Brahms, but not to such Early or Middle Romantics as Schubert, Weber, Hummel, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Spohr and others, who wrote large parts of their work precisely for being "played in a drawing room or relatively small private venue by a mixture of amateurs and random professionals", and who belong themselves to later generations. It is largely a post-1850 phenomenon and as such cannot explain the way Wackenroder and Tieck viewed music prior to 1800.

Not to mention that Haydn's London Symphonies were premiered exactly  "in relatively huge concert halls [...] exclusively by professional musicians".

You're spot on about one thing, though: as time went by the gap between composers, performers and listeners widened, and what used to be a collaborative enterprise became more and more a self-absorbed affair, on both ends. From the times when involved and interactive household musicmaking, and composing for such instances, was routine to the times when passively listening to recordings is routine, a lot of changes occurred, and not all of them for the better.

Anyway, thanks for reading and posting, much appreciated.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Gordo on May 23, 2017, 02:48:17 AM
Today, I saw this conversation in another thread:

Recent arrivals:



I spotified Norrington’s Má Vlast. Probably not the best performance of the work, but it was cheap and is the only one on period instruments AFAIK.

Period instruments yes but the wrong period I am afraid. Music was composed sometime between 1874 and 1879 but the Classical Era in music ended around 1820 thus making the "period" about 50+ years off.

After reading these posts, I thought if I had to choose a date to mark the end of the Classical Era it would be, no doubt, the date of Haydn's death. So, now it's official to me: in music, the Classical Era finishes in 1809 (beginning in 1750).  :)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 02:57:35 AM
now it's official to me: in music, the Classical Era finishes in 1809 (beginning in 1750).  :)

Great! Now we know that the Classical Era died in 1809. The next big step is to locate its tombstone.  ;D

Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: North Star on May 23, 2017, 03:06:58 AM
After reading these posts, I thought if I had to choose a date to mark the end of the Classical Era it would be, no doubt, the date of Haydn's death. So, now it's official to me: in music, the Classical Era finishes in 1809 (beginning in 1750).  :)
So half of middle-period Beethoven, among other things, is out? And what is that time, until around 1820, or the death of Beethoven, then?
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Gordo on May 23, 2017, 03:16:02 AM
Great! Now we know that the Classical Era died in 1809. The next big step is to locate its tombstone.  ;D

Oh, you again, damn argumentative Romanian!  >:(  :D ;D :D

Of course, you carefully changed the verb ("to die" instead of "to finish"). Nice move!  ;D
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 03:23:34 AM
Of course, you carefully changed the verb ("to die" instead of "to finish").

Know what, you're actually right: it might have finished in 1809, but it certainly lived longer than that. She was a still charming enough lady, albeit a little passé, when asiduously courted by Brahms. :laugh:
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Gordo on May 23, 2017, 03:25:49 AM
So half of middle-period Beethoven, among other things, is out? And what is that time, until around 1820, or the death of Beethoven, then?

I would need a more careful inspection of the dates of his works, but I'm quite sure that around 1809 Beethoven had concluded his "Classical stage."
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 23, 2017, 03:27:06 AM
Like [Haydn &] Beethoven before him, Brahms was both a classicist, and a progressive.  Schoenberg knew . . . .


(I added the brackets to retain some decorous relation to the thread)   0:)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Gordo on May 23, 2017, 03:36:52 AM
Know what, you're actually right: it might have finished in 1809, but it certainly lived longer than that. She was a still charming enough lady, albeit a little passé, when asiduously courted by Brahms. :laugh:

Right enough, too!

Many of us believe today that Haydn was the greatest genius of the Classical era. But he was also an epigone: after him was impossible to be "a Classical composer" as an entire form of life.

P.S.: I don't know what all of this really means. So for further explanations, please ask to Gurn.  ;D
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Jo498 on May 23, 2017, 05:37:29 AM
I think it is difficult to set a beginning to the "classical era" and almost impossible to set an endpoint. At the beginning we can try to delineate new stylist elements, the vanishing of figured bass (although the latter remained in practice to some extent for most of the 18th century), the changing of meaning of sonata and sinfonia. This started in the 1730s or so and by the 1760s the classical style is recognizable quite easily. Still, even later there would be pieces written that could (almost) have been written in 1720.
But how to draw a line in the early 19th century? People kept composing sonatas and symphonies in the classical sense with very similar structures even until the 20th century. And their "model" was "middle period Beethoven" at least as often as 1790 Mozart or Haydn.
For me Beethoven always was a "classical" composer. Among other things, Beethoven never sounds like "early something" but always like something in a fully fledged style. But it can hardly be denied that during Beethoven's lifetime music was composed that is clearly romantic, mainly Weber's Freischütz (1821) and later operas and Schubert's songs (for most of Schubert's instrumental music one can have an analoguous debate as with Beethoven's about whether it is "classical" or "romantic").
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 23, 2017, 06:19:37 AM
This is an interesting angle on what is, really, a very old discussion.  :)

I agree with pretty much all that Gordo has said, but then, we have had this discussion before and ironed out our differing perceptions (as little as they may have been).  I would submit that Beethoven is an anomaly, he doesn't belong to either camp, he is just Beethoven. He is Classical in the sense of formal structure, but his use of 'progressive' harmonics puts him beyond, even, Haydn. Who, in case you don't know it, was in no sense 'normal' in either harmonic choices, sonata structure or pretty much anything else. He was so 'abnormal' that 19th century theorists simply left him out of the discussion when they were retroactively writing the 'rules' for Classical Era music.

Jo's open-ended statement about how difficult it is to tell when Classical became Romantic, or at least that is how I read that statement, is not as arbitrary as it has always been portrayed. Would anyone here agree with me that the real division in music is a question of degree, or radicalism or something  along that line?  One of the hallmarks of Classicism, and what gave it the name to start with, was that it had a solid structure, it had a strong element of concision, it had tonal balance and some inherent direction to it?  I think 19th century music gets away from all of those things. Weber, to start at the beginning, absolutely hated sonata form, and when he felt compelled to use it in a work, he always saved it for last and flogged himself to do it. As the century progressed, the music got longer and more elaborate, the tonal aspects got more diffused to the point where they had to be abandoned by the end of the century. The days of the 25 minute symphony became the days of the 25 minute movement.

BTW, if you want to see two composers (of several I could name) who went over to Romanticism in a traceable way, look at Hummel and Spohr. Their early sonatas (Classical) gave way to their later Potpourris (Romantic). And you can hear the differences.

Sorry, I am at work and I have to abandon this for now. Haydn is Classical, that's all I know... :)

8)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 06:44:23 AM
BTW, if you want to see two composers (of several I could name) who went over to Romanticism in a traceable way, look at Hummel and Spohr. Their early sonatas (Classical) gave way to their later Potpourris (Romantic). And you can hear the differences.

You can safely strike Spohr off this list. He never wrote any early sonatas to begin with (his one and only Piano Sonata op. 125 dates from 1843, when he was 59 --- not surprising, for he was a violinist) and most of his works are solidly Classical in form.  :D
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 23, 2017, 07:35:18 AM
You can safely strike Spohr off this list. He never wrote any early sonatas to begin with (his one and only Piano Sonata op. 125 dates from 1843, when he was 59 --- not surprising, for he was a violinist) and most of his works are solidly Classical in form.  :D

He wrote plenty of early chamber music (string quintets and quartets) which are in sonata form. You know, in those days they would most certainly have been called sonatas (á trois, á quatuours, á etc.) since the terms we use today hadn't been invented yet. In his later years he wrote a bunch of potpourris, which are certainly not sonatas. Don't want to rely too much on terminology there, since it has changed so much. Anyway, it is the music itself that changed, not just the names.  :)

8)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Jo498 on May 23, 2017, 07:58:33 AM
I agree with pretty much all that Gordo has said, but then, we have had this discussion before and ironed out our differing perceptions (as little as they may have been).  I would submit that Beethoven is an anomaly, he doesn't belong to either camp, he is just Beethoven. He is Classical in the sense of formal structure, but his use of 'progressive' harmonics puts him beyond, even, Haydn. Who, in case you don't know it, was in no sense 'normal' in either harmonic choices, sonata structure or pretty much anything else. He was so 'abnormal' that 19th century theorists simply left him out of the discussion when they were retroactively writing the 'rules' for Classical Era music.
The so-called "classical forms" fit best for some classicist romantics like Mendelssohn... They also fit a lot of early and middle period Beethoven and a lot of Mozart very well. And some Haydn ;)

I think one problem is that there are at least 4 dimensions we tend to think about when differentiating classical from romantic (and similarly from baroque). And because they often don't line up, it is hard to draw lines

forms: "strict classical" vs. "free romantic"
harmonics: with classical dominated by tonic-dominant and romantic becoming generally freer and more daring
"form before content" (classical) vs. (extramusical) content dominating or determing the form
courtly vs. bourgeois or even revolutionary

None of them really works, except maybe the second one, narrowly understood.
The 4th point has to take into account that THE revolution was in musically firmly classical times 1789 and that of course pre-classical music was courtly as well (or even more courtly). And there was restoration in the time of the early romantics, but another revolution in 1830, another in 1848 and they don't really line up with stylistic changes in music.
The first point neglects that Haydn and Beethoven can be "freer" in forms than many "classicist romantics" (like Mendelssohn or Brahms or Dvorak) and that almost all important classical forms (both the typically 4 movement sonata/symphony/quartet/... and the typical forms of these movements) remain extremely important throughout the 19th century.
The third point has trouble with lots of "absolute" romantic music (like most Brahms and Chopin, but even a lot of Liszt and Schumann) and programmatic "classical" like Haydn's daytimes or Dittersdorf Ovid symphonies.

Quote
As the century progressed, the music got longer and more elaborate, the tonal aspects got more diffused to the point where they had to be abandoned by the end of the century. The days of the 25 minute symphony became the days of the 25 minute movement.
But such movements were never really the standard. Mahler's and Bruckner's movements are long both compared with Beethoven and with, say Roussel or Hartmann or other 20th century composers. And they can be formally rather strict. The first movement of Mahler's 6th take around 20 min but it is in a rather strict sonata form. Only a little late romantic music exceeds the lengths of Beethoven's and Schuberts most extensive pieces and many early/high romantic pieces are not much longer than late Haydn/Mozart and early Beethoven. A late Mozart or Haydn symphony lasts around 25-30 min., a "typical" Beethoven symphony 35-40 and there are plenty of romantic symphonies within that range. Schubert's Great C major and Beethoven's 9th are long even for late romantic standards.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 08:12:11 AM
Berlioz and Wagner were probably the most fully Romantic: they never wrote "absolute" music.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 23, 2017, 08:13:40 AM
Never?
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Mahlerian on May 23, 2017, 08:14:07 AM
But such movements were never really the standard. Mahler's and Bruckner's movements are long both compared with Beethoven and with, say Roussel or Hartmann or other 20th century composers. And they can be formally rather strict. The first movement of Mahler's 6th take around 20 min but it is in a rather strict sonata form. Only a little late romantic music exceeds the lengths of Beethoven's and Schuberts most extensive pieces and many early/high romantic pieces are not much longer than late Haydn/Mozart and early Beethoven. A late Mozart or Haydn symphony lasts around 25-30 min., a "typical" Beethoven symphony 35-40 and there are plenty of romantic symphonies within that range. Schubert's Great C major and Beethoven's 9th are long even for late romantic standards.

It follows the outline of sonata form but doesn't employ the traditional content or rhetoric.

- The movement inverts the normal relationship of tension/relaxation throughout.  Traditionally a tonally stable first subject is contrasted with a more active second subject, while here a tonally unstable and turbulent first subject is contrasted with a slightly more stable second subject.  Traditionally the greatest tension is in the center of the movement in the development, but here the greatest tension is in the exposition and recapitulation/coda, and the development moves towards (and then away from) a state of repose and relaxation.

-  The recapitulation doesn't present the second theme group in the tonic key, but rather in the subdominant (initially it had been in the submediant).  The presentation of that theme in the tonic is reserved for the end of the coda.

- Tonic/dominant polarity is de-emphasized, and the stability of traditional moments such as the half cadence that ends the first theme group is weakened by dissonances.  The movement does not end with a conclusive cadence of any kind, but rather a repeated reaffirmation of the tonic.

It should be mentioned in this context that the loosening of dominant/tonic and key relationships is a key factor in allowing movements like Mahler's/Bruckner's/late Beethoven to continue for so long without losing momentum or coherence.  The necessity of closing every period with a clear cadence of some kind would result in utter monotony if carried out over so long a span.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 08:16:36 AM
Never?

Probably an exaggeration. In any case, none which is part of their canonic body of works.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Jo498 on May 23, 2017, 08:23:25 AM
Of course, Mahler 6th is not some simple neoclassicist piece. (Although I guess one will find several of the "subverting" elements already in earlier music - still it has a classical dimension, it clearly references the classical form even while subverting it in some respects.) Neither are most of Bruckner's movements.
My point was that the sheer length does not say very much about how "free" or "formalist" a piece is and that the very long pieces of Mahler and Bruckner are also long compared to a lot of late romantic or early modernist symphonies. Overall the scale set by Beethoven's 9th was only rarely exceeded and in piano or chamber music most (late) romantic pieces are shorter than Beethoven's op.106 and op.132 or Schubert's last piano sonata and his string quintet.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 23, 2017, 08:27:13 AM
Probably an exaggeration.

I do not think it any exaggeration in Berlioz's case.  But Wagner is famous for having written the most elderly juvenile Symphony in C, at age 19  ;)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Mahlerian on May 23, 2017, 08:28:38 AM
Of course, Mahler 6th is not some simple neoclassicist piece. (Although I guess one will find several of the "subverting" elements already in earlier music - still it has a classical dimension, it clearly references the classical form even while subverting it in some respects.) Neither are most of Bruckner's movements.
My point was that the sheer length does not say very much about how "free" or "formalist" a piece is and that the very long pieces of Mahler and Bruckner are also long compared to a lot of late romantic or early modernist symphonies. Overall the scale set by Beethoven's 9th was only rarely exceeded and in piano or chamber music most (late) romantic pieces are shorter than Beethoven's op.106 and op.132 or Schubert's last piano sonata and his string quintet.

True, and I suppose it depends on what we would call a "strict" sonata form.  For me personally, I would require that the tonal outline (key structure) also follow the traditional pattern, at least insofar as balancing an exposition that moves away from the tonic area to a recapitulation that moves back towards the tonic area.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 23, 2017, 08:29:41 AM
I do not think it any exaggeration in Berlioz's case.  But Wagner is famous for having written the most elderly juvenile Symphony in C, at age 19  ;)

Be fair:  if I had presumed to write a symphony when I was 19, it would have stunk on ice.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 08:31:06 AM
I do not think it any exaggeration in Berlioz's case.

Rêverie et caprice Op. 8, for violin and orchestra is the closest he got to "absolute music".

Quote
  But Wagner is famous for having written the most elderly juvenile Symphony in C, at age 19  ;)

Yes, I had checked and he has quite a bunch of "absolute music" juvenilia.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 23, 2017, 08:36:08 AM
Yes, I had checked and he has quite a bunch of "absolute music" juvenilia.

When I am in Devil’s Advocate mode, I rather wonder if Wagner’s dependence on extra-musical stuff was not an inherent compositional weakness.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 08:39:50 AM
When I am in Devil’s Advocate mode, I rather wonder if Wagner’s dependence on extra-musical stuff was not an inherent compositional weakness.

The same as with Verdi, you mean?  :D
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 23, 2017, 08:41:52 AM
Verdi wrote a very nice string quartet, so, no.

And while Berlioz wrote no absolute music, he was a master of, erm, "absolute forms."
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: kishnevi on May 23, 2017, 08:47:01 AM
Siegfried Idyll is not really programmatic.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 23, 2017, 08:57:23 AM
Siegfried Idyll is not really programmatic.

I think there is an argument to be made there, even though the piece seems originally to have been titled Triebschen Idyll with Fidi's birdsong and the orange sunrise, as symphonic birthday greeting.  Good Lord, even this compact piece could suffer from his characteristic verbal incontinence  ;)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Parsifal on May 23, 2017, 08:58:43 AM
And while Berlioz wrote no absolute music, he was a master of, erm, "absolute forms."

Rêverie et caprice for Violin and Orchestra, Op. 8?

Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 23, 2017, 09:02:39 AM
Rêverie et caprice for Violin and Orchestra, Op. 8?

My statement was incorrectly absolute  :)  Andrei did point out that very work.  Is a Rêverie “absolute music”?  Feels borderline to me. Part of me wants simply to allow a caprice as “absolute music,” part of me leans towards calling the Op.8 a pair of contrasting character pieces.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Jo498 on May 23, 2017, 09:26:18 AM
When I am in Devil’s Advocate mode, I rather wonder if Wagner’s dependence on extra-musical stuff was not an inherent compositional weakness.
As he wrote about the most symphonic (="absolute") operas, bleeding chunks of which work quite well as isolated "quasi tone poems" I think this was only an "external" dependence.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 09:42:08 AM
Is a Rêverie “absolute music”?  Feels borderline to me. Part of me wants simply to allow a caprice as “absolute music,” part of me leans towards calling the Op.8 a pair of contrasting character pieces.

Given we talk about Berlioz, I doubt there is no programmatic underpinning.

Et voilà: http://www.hberlioz.com/Scores/sreverie.htm (http://www.hberlioz.com/Scores/sreverie.htm)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 23, 2017, 10:18:47 AM
This would be a great addition to the Romantic Salon, am I right?   0:)

8)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Florestan on May 23, 2017, 10:43:49 AM
This would be a great addition to the Romantic Salon, am I right?   0:)

8)

AFAIC, you can take all necessary actions.  :)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: millionrainbows on July 31, 2017, 08:04:25 AM
Just listened to Samuel Barber's Symphony No. 1 and his Piano Concerto. I listen these days in terms of verticality vs. horizontal, and the vertical definitely won. Thus, I see him as very much a modernist, as well as his usual label as a Romantic. Some very exotic sonorities in the Piano Concerto.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Cato on August 02, 2017, 05:12:02 PM
Just listened to Samuel Barber's Symphony No. 1 and his Piano Concerto. I listen these days in terms of verticality vs. horizontal, and the vertical definitely won. Thus, I see him as very much a modernist, as well as his usual label as a Romantic. Some very exotic sonorities in the Piano Concerto.

The terms are not exclusive!

Rêverie et caprice for Violin and Orchestra, Op. 8?



Speaking of the term Reverie...

https://www.youtube.com/v/Zl6fhv3pyao



Speaking of
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: millionrainbows on August 16, 2017, 12:29:40 PM
The more I listen to Beethoven, the less I think he's a Romantic. He's a modernist.
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Est.1965 on September 07, 2017, 12:55:32 PM
The more I listen to Beethoven, the less I think he's a Romantic. He's a modernist.
Yep.  How he would love the sororities and dynamic range of a big modern orchestra in a big custom built hall.  Oh lordy, what would he have written for THAT (with unimpaired hearing)?  He certainly was a modernist, by about 200 years!   :)
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: Wanderer on October 15, 2017, 01:16:20 AM
Speaking of music prone to devastate romantic salons, here's Alkan's cadenza for Mozart's Piano Concerto No.20:

https://youtu.be/1kXjcYVJVCI (https://youtu.be/1kXjcYVJVCI)



PS. Andrei, your inbox is full!
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: zamyrabyrd on January 30, 2018, 02:44:46 AM
Speaking of music prone to devastate romantic salons, here's Alkan's cadenza for Mozart's Piano Concerto No.20:
https://youtu.be/1kXjcYVJVCI (https://youtu.be/1kXjcYVJVCI)

Alkan's cadenza is interesting. However, Brahms' is less of a loosely strung together potpourri, more consistent in style, I'd say:

https://www.youtube.com/v/Izv0S1Et6kA
Title: Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
Post by: vandermolen on September 12, 2018, 10:29:01 AM
Scion and Karlo, thanks for your posts. Indeed, Friedrich and Turner are among my favorite painters.

(http://www.wga.hu/art/f/friedric/2/212fried.jpg)

(https://www.artsy.net/artwork/joseph-mallord-william-turner-venice-the-dogana-and-san-giorgio-maggiore/download/joseph-mallord-william-turner-venice-the-dogana-and-san-giorgio-maggiore-1834.jpg)
Coming very late to this thread. Friedrich is one of my very favourite artists, more so than Turner actually. His art has a dream-like and poetic quality to it. It is no surprise that he influenced the Surrealists.

In the top painting Friedrich and his young wife Caroline sail hand-in-hand towards a celestial city.