GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composing and Performing => Topic started by: MarkMcD on December 21, 2016, 01:10:32 PM

Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: MarkMcD on December 21, 2016, 01:10:32 PM
Hi all,

I'm new to this part of the forum so I'm looking forward to hearing lots of great music and adding my 2 penneth worth also.

First, a little intro. 

I've been an amateur composer for about 30 years now (when I have the time).  Mostly classical piano and some orchestral works, but always just for my own entertainment.  Until now!

After spending such a long time plonking away on my piano, I thought I really would like to know if anyone else thinks what I do actually has any merit.  I have to say that the majority of my music wouldn't be considered modern in style.  The main reasons I love classical music was born from the classics of old, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, Schubert etc., etc., and whilst I am all for the advancement of music and musical styles, I'm afraid a lot of the more atonal works and "modern" classical music, leaves me cold, not all of it, as long as I can discern a melody and some nice harmonies, rhythmic or melodic structure, then I'm quite happy, but my stuff usually doesn't fall into that category

With that in mind, I would like to share some of my stuff with the community here and see if you think I should carry on, or not give up my day job! lol.

Thanks in advance for your indulgence and whatever help and advice you can give me.

Here's a dropbox link to "La Marioneta"
A short piano piece that perhaps I might say, is about as far outside the traditional as I get, I hope you like it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qjxxv2s3j2w1ojk/La%20Marioneta%20%28final%20version%29.mp3?dl=0

Also, if any of you happen to think my work merits it, then I would like to post a few more pieces here, so please tell me what you think, even if you don't like it or think it has no merit, at least I will know, right?

Mark
Title: Re: La Marioneta
Post by: Andante on December 21, 2016, 03:35:07 PM
Hello Mark and welcome, You echo my view on to days music and like you the majority of it leaves me cold luckily however some decent music is still being produced and yours fits into that slot I thoroughly enjoyed your work. 
Title: Re: La Marioneta
Post by: Mahlerian on December 21, 2016, 05:22:11 PM
My impression is that the piece needs more variety.  It seems restrained in spite of the driving rhythmic style used, and more contrast between various parts of the piece would add to the effect.
Title: Re: La Marioneta
Post by: MarkMcD on December 22, 2016, 03:16:11 AM
Thank you Andante and Mahlerian,

I'm so glad you enjoyed it Andante, but I am inclined to agree also a little with you Mahlerian, in that the piece even to me, sounds a little too inveriable in parts.  The trouble with this piece is that the bones of the piece came out in 1 sitting (with much polishing to follow), but the basic structure was set from the beginning and I found it really hard to make any drastic changes later.  I wanted to have more key variation, but when I tried to introduce the key changes, the rest of the structure tended to collapse and so in the end I left it more or less as it was.  I am happy with the rhythms and the changes of pace during the couple of more subdued passages, but one thing I do always wonder is if a piece is ever truly finished.  Yes of course the Grand Masters presentations are more than likely truly finished, but at least for me, I never rule out further revisions to my work if and when the inspiration strikes me, I will revisit a piece and try out new variations, and this piece is no exception.  On the whole, I am pleased with it's present state, but when I find a way to revise it with the changes I really want, I will revise it.

Thanks again to you both for you comments, I really appreciate it.

Mark
Title: Re: La Marioneta
Post by: Andante on December 22, 2016, 12:20:04 PM
I think it is a great idea and so deserves more work perhaps a development into the lower register and a tempo change but what do I know I play music not compose it. lol
Title: Re: La Marioneta
Post by: MarkMcD on December 23, 2016, 03:17:02 AM
Hmmmmmmmmmm, you're giving me ideas now Andante, lol.  I think it could stand a quick foray into the lower register and your right about the tempo change, it is quite rigid in it's tempo just now, but don't hold your breath for the revision, it could be a while  :D  I do also think that the performer is very well placed to give critique, as the composer is often so attached to the work that it's hard to see what others see, giving a more detached view of a piece, so thanks for your input.

Mark
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: MarkMcD on January 06, 2017, 10:10:06 AM
Hello again,

I've been working on a revision for La Marioneta and finally I have it done.  I took the advice and wrote a development this time in a major mode with a slower pace.  I think had provided some contrast, what do you think?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pd53v9ru9kvggk5/La%20Marioneta%20-%20Revision%202.mp3?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m1j4bjtayfhppfi/La%20Marioneta%20revised.pdf?dl=0   (The Score)
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: Andante on January 06, 2017, 02:42:22 PM
Again I like it are you aiming to finish up with a sonata or is it just an idea to play around with ?
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: MarkMcD on January 07, 2017, 01:53:24 AM
Good morning Andante,

Thanks for listening.  To be honest, originally it was only meant to be a stand alone piece, but whilst I was playing with the new development, a couple of ideas came to me and I was wondering about writing a further piece to accompany the first, I suppose it would make more sense go for sonata since I don't know of a form that has only 2 movements.

Check back in about a year and there might something more to hear  :laugh:

Regards
Mark
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: Andante on January 07, 2017, 12:24:55 PM
Or you could try "Variations on a theme of Mark" just as an exercise but a sonata would be more of a challenge and satisfying.   Don't forsake your original loves of the Masters, melody, rhythm and form.
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: MarkMcD on January 08, 2017, 04:02:43 AM
Thanks Andante, I think I would like to try for the sonata, as you say, it would be a challenge, but one that might give me a bit more insight into the form if I do it properly as I've never really written a sonata that really followed the accepted definition.  I think there might be enough material to work with, but don't hold your breath lol.

Thanks again for all your advice, I really do appreciate it.

Kind regards
Mark
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: Cato on January 08, 2017, 07:51:54 AM
Hello again,

I've been working on a revision for La Marioneta and finally I have it done.  I took the advice and wrote a development this time in a major mode with a slower pace.  I think had provided some contrast, what do you think?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pd53v9ru9kvggk5/La%20Marioneta%20-%20Revision%202.mp3?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m1j4bjtayfhppfi/La%20Marioneta%20revised.pdf?dl=0   (The Score)

Very nice! 

My impression is that the piece needs more variety.  It seems restrained in spite of the driving rhythmic style used, and more contrast between various parts of the piece would add to the effect.

The range of the piano is large, so exploring the higher/highest and lower/lowest registers in the piece would solve that variety issue.  There is a tendency to hang around the middle a little too much, otherwise, yes, a fun piece, and possibly has material for a full Sonata.  0:)
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: MarkMcD on January 08, 2017, 11:47:56 AM
Thanks Cato,

I just started work on a second movement, whilst also trying to wade through Schoenbergs fundamentals, it's heavy going, but I'm really trying to use proper techniques instead of the more free flow approach I'm used to, lets see what it brings  ;D

Mark
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: Andante on January 08, 2017, 12:56:34 PM
Thanks Cato,

I just started work on a second movement, whilst also trying to wade through Schoenbergs fundamentals, it's heavy going, but I'm really trying to use proper techniques instead of the more free flow approach I'm used to, lets see what it brings  ;D

Mark
Oh no not Schoenberg.........please
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: Mahlerian on January 08, 2017, 12:58:24 PM
Oh no not Schoenberg.........please

His Fundamentals of Music Composition is a really great text for beginners learning to compose in a traditional manner.  Don't go around badmouthing it just because of his reputation.  He shows how to start from simple motifs and go to writing ternary form, scherzo form, and finally sonata form.

It's not quite as detailed as Harmonielehre, nor as filled with digressions.
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: MarkMcD on January 08, 2017, 02:15:28 PM
LOL, it was suggested to me, and since I have very little frame of reference in these things, then I got hold of a copy.  I think everyone is going to have their personal favorites and gripes, but it's a start.

Andante, if there's something that you think I should be reading, then let me know, I'll give most things a shot.  I have to say that I find the language that Schoenberg uses is quite "jargonish", but there are very few text books that seem to explain things in a more user friendly manner.  I'm dyslexic, and so leaning by reading alone never seems to sink in for me, I much prefer to have someone explain, so that I can ask questions, that however takes money, so books it is then!  :-\

Mahlerian, I'm happy you thought to look back at my thread, it would have been nice if you actually said whether you thought there had been any improvement to the piece, but well, at least you looked  :) Thanks
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: Cato on January 08, 2017, 02:49:49 PM
His Fundamentals of Music Composition is a really great text for beginners learning to compose in a traditional manner.  Don't go around badmouthing it just because of his reputation.  He shows how to start from simple motifs and go to writing ternary form, scherzo form, and finally sonata form.


Amen! 

I have to say that I find the language that Schoenberg uses is quite "jargonish", but there are very few text books that seem to explain things in a more user friendly manner.  I'm dyslexic, and so leaning by reading alone never seems to sink in for me, I much prefer to have someone explain, so that I can ask questions, that however takes money


By no means does it take money!  Just ask any of our resident experts and they will be happy to answer!   8)
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: Mahlerian on January 08, 2017, 02:52:39 PM
LOL, it was suggested to me, and since I have very little frame of reference in these things, then I got hold of a copy.  I think everyone is going to have their personal favorites and gripes, but it's a start.

Andante, if there's something that you think I should be reading, then let me know, I'll give most things a shot.  I have to say that I find the language that Schoenberg uses is quite "jargonish", but there are very few text books that seem to explain things in a more user friendly manner.  I'm dyslexic, and so leaning by reading alone never seems to sink in for me, I much prefer to have someone explain, so that I can ask questions, that however takes money, so books it is then!  :-\

Mahlerian, I'm happy you thought to look back at my thread, it would have been nice if you actually said whether you thought there had been any improvement to the piece, but well, at least you looked  :) Thanks

I hadn't listened to the latest revision until just now.

It is certainly improved in a few ways.  Keeping the middle section a moto perpetuo doesn't do all that much to change the texture, but at least it's a constant eighth note rhythm rather than constant sixteenth notes throughout.  Echoing Cato, you certainly could do a good deal to expand the range of your piano, so that it isn't routinely returning to the middle register.

It may seem nitpicky to say this, but if you're interested in having anyone else play this, or even just as a good habit, you should be more careful about notation.  The last chord is clearly F minor, but you're replacing the A-flats with G-sharps, which is confusing to look at.  Bars like 172 are unnecessarily difficult to read.  There's no reason it couldn't or shouldn't look like the version in the attachment.

That said, your piece is certainly engaging.  Take what you've learned from it and apply it to your next.
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: Andante on January 08, 2017, 04:42:41 PM
I knew exactly what the response would be as soon as I mentioned Schoenberg with an “Oh no” (but thought it would be worse) so I will leave it at that lol.

@ Mark. I don’t know what instrument you play but perhaps a friendly chat with whoever taught you would be a good place to start.  :)
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: Mahlerian on January 08, 2017, 05:24:19 PM
I knew exactly what the response would be as soon as I mentioned Schoenberg with an “Oh no” (but thought it would be worse) so I will leave it at that lol.

Well, you could apologize.  Why should Schoenberg still be treated as a pariah?  He wrote some great books on composition that any aspiring composer, no matter what style they want to write in, can learn from.

Thinking that he only taught students to write in his own style is more of the same ignorance that is often spread about him.

I apologize to Mark for derailing his thread.  It was impolite of me.
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: Andante on January 08, 2017, 07:38:16 PM
Well, you could apologize.  Why should Schoenberg still be treated as a pariah?  He wrote some great books on composition that any aspiring composer, no matter what style they want to write in, can learn from.

Thinking that he only taught students to write in his own style is more of the same ignorance that is often spread about him.

I apologize to Mark for derailing his thread.  It was impolite of me.

Now now Mahler man don’t go looking for trouble, I don’t care one hoot, and was not referring to books he has written, it was a bit of banter with Mark not you.
If you took offence its your problem so no apology.
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: Mahlerian on January 08, 2017, 07:47:35 PM
Now now Mahler man don’t go looking for trouble, I don’t care one hoot, and was not referring to books he has written, it was a bit of banter with Mark not you.

Actually, that was exactly the thing under discussion.

Clearly you did care enough to say "Oh no," and you thought this was in some way adding to this conversation.
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: MarkMcD on January 09, 2017, 03:17:52 AM
Good morning chaps,

Andante, sadly my teacher died about 30 years ago so unless I get on the ouija board, that's a no go  :laugh:

Cato, joining this forum and submitting some of my work for inspection was one of the methods I wanted to employ in my learning, and people have been kind enough to give me pointers, for which I am very grateful.  I will ask questions in the future I'm sure, so be prepared  :laugh:

Mahlerian, Thanks for your suggestions, I do appreciate your insights and will try to use them in further revisions and future work.  I know I am a novice at this, and that is why I really do appreciate the critique as much as the folks telling me they enjoyed the piece.  P.s. I don't mind the hijacking, its entertaining at least, probably not for you, but perhaps this could be a topic for a new thread, it seems to be a bone of contention that might produce some interesting points of view.

Best regards
Mark
Title: Re: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 09, 2017, 04:11:13 AM
Great attitude!
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: Andante on January 09, 2017, 12:52:17 PM
Actually, that was exactly the thing under discussion.

Clearly you did care enough to say "Oh no," and you thought this was in some way adding to this conversation.

You say don’t want to derail this thread but that is exactly what you are doing by deliberately misinterpreting my comment “Oh no not Schoenberg.........please”
I have explained this to you but you want to make a meal of it, well I don’t and suggest that we put an end to this childish exchange.
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: Mahlerian on January 09, 2017, 04:02:12 PM
You say don’t want to derail this thread but that is exactly what you are doing by deliberately misinterpreting my comment “Oh no not Schoenberg.........please”
I have explained this to you but you want to make a meal of it, well I don’t and suggest that we put an end to this childish exchange.

I did not and would never deliberately misinterpret your comment.  If you wanted to drop in a comment about some other aspect of Schoenberg other than the one that was specifically under discussion, you could have indicated this.  I merely assumed that your comment was about the same topic as what it was responding to.
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: Andante on January 09, 2017, 05:06:45 PM
For goodness sake it was not a discussion when I made the comment!
Enough Mahler Boy enough. Let it go.
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: Mahlerian on January 09, 2017, 05:13:42 PM
For goodness sake it was not a discussion when I made the comment!

The only thing mentioned had been a book by Schoenberg:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41TBKUd31AL.jpg)

Your comment was in relation to that from my perspective (because it was the absolute only thing about Schoenberg relevant to this discussion), and I tried to explain that contrary to what you might think, it's actually a really traditionally-oriented text.
Title: Re: La Marioneta Revised
Post by: Andante on January 09, 2017, 06:55:28 PM
The only thing mentioned had been a book by Schoenberg:
Your comment was in relation to that from my perspective (because it was the absolute only thing about Schoenberg relevant to this discussion), and I tried to explain that contrary to what you might think, it's actually a really traditionally-oriented text.

(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j309/diefledremaus/Rat_taps.gif) (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/diefledremaus/media/Rat_taps.gif.html)