GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: edward on January 03, 2008, 08:39:14 PM

Title: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: edward on January 03, 2008, 08:39:14 PM
.. is a gap that perhaps needs to be filled, as a few people here seem to have expressed interest in this divisive figure.

I notice that a major new Lachenmann disc will appear later this month, with the Ardittis playing all three string quartets:

http://www.kairos-music.com/R/Lachenm6.html
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: uffeviking on January 03, 2008, 09:07:03 PM
Oh but he has been mentioned long, long ago, when I tried to arouse interest in his Reigen and Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern - might have the title of the last one incorrect - you know what  mean.

Saw at Wergo a documentary DVD about and with him, wanted it, but thought twice when I checked the conversion table Euro to US Dollar!

If the Ardetti will be available in the US, I most certainly will buy it. Thank you for the heads up!  8)
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: uffeviking on January 03, 2008, 09:13:27 PM
Did a quick search and Lachenmann has been mentioned quite often, even only last November, he just never got his own thread:

"
Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern. As good as Lachenmann gets, which means that it's as good an opera as it gets.

"
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: MDL on January 04, 2008, 03:34:42 AM
I've had trouble getting on with this composer. A lot of his music seems to consist of nothing but shuffling, scraping and squeaking, as if a few people were moving furniture around, and I'm speaking as someone who loves Stockhausen's Momente and early Penderecki. The only CD I actually own is the ECM recording of Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern - I've copied that from Uffeviking, so blame any typos on him :). That does have its moments, so perhaps if I give it a few more goes, it'll all click into place. But I tend to get a "handle" on most music fairly quickly, even if I don't understand it entirely at first, and I think, with Lachenmann, I may have found one of my deaf spots. I'm actually quite disappointed in myself. I thought I could cope with anything, that no composer was too strange or challenging for someone who spent his teenage years listening to Stockhausen, Ligeti, Nono and Penderecki. But I've failed Lachenmann.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on January 04, 2008, 07:55:33 AM
He's a fascinating composer, but he can be tough to take.  If you're not in the mood, I can easily see patience wearing thin.  When I heard a performance of Gran Torso (1972) a few years ago (his string quartet with an abundance of rustling, scratching sounds) there were a few people either dozing or leaving.  I haven't heard it since, but I haven't forgotten it.  (This new Arditti release sounds great.)

Last year a couple of guitarists here did Salut für Caudwell (1977), Lachenmann's "deconstruction of flamenco technique."  Basically the musicians tap, stroke, strum and scrape the instruments, in very defined rhythmic patterns.  Then I heard Pierre-Laurent Aimard in Guero (1970), a short work in which the pianist is supposed to scrape the keys with his fingernails.  (Aimard used a credit card.)  There's no denying that the composer deliberately exploited the piano for many of its "non-pianistic" elements, and of course you would never want to listen to this piece if you were in the mood for say, Brahms.  ;D  But in all of these cases, I found myself thinking about the performances for days afterward, and that's worth pondering.

--Bruce
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: greg on January 04, 2008, 08:05:12 AM
.. is a gap that perhaps needs to be filled, as a few people here seem to have expressed interest in this divisive figure.

I notice that a major new Lachenmann disc will appear later this month, with the Ardittis playing all three string quartets:

http://www.kairos-music.com/R/Lachenm6.html
cool, looks like another possibly fun CD.

i have 2 Lachenmann CDs..... piano music on one, and my favorite of his, Mouvement and a few others on the other.
Not anything I'd listen to consistently, but good stuff if you feel bored with what you've been listening to at the moment.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: some guy on January 04, 2008, 11:05:20 AM
And here I thought you were making a clever reference to Lachenmann's penchant for isolating sounds, in space and in time. (I can still pretend, can't I?)

I heard the Arditti play Lachenmann's latest string quartet in Wrocław last spring. Wow. So I know I'll be buying this CD. Good news, indeed!

I can't imagine any performance of Gran Torso being more perfect than the Berner Streichquartett's (coupled with Salut für Caudwell on col legno), but if anyone can do it, it's the Arditti.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: edward on January 04, 2008, 11:35:54 AM
And here I thought you were making a clever reference to Lachenmann's penchant for isolating sounds, in space and in time. (I can still pretend, can't I?)
I was. :) No reason for a thread not to have a double meaning.

One thing that has intrigued me about much of Lachenmann's more recent music (specifically, all the orchestral works since Tanszsuite mit Deutschlandlied) is how intimately they're connected with the German symphonic tradition: for me Ausklang is inconceivable without the piano concertos of Brahms; NUN without Bruckner's adagios; Staub without Beethoven's 9th. They may not sound anything like the three Bs, but the heart that beats underneath the Marxist deconstruction is German, and Romantic in spirit.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: mikkeljs on January 05, 2008, 11:05:49 AM
I got into Lachenmann, when I asked my composition teacher, what I should try, if I wanted something that is hard to listen to.

I heard the Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern. What a fantastic and terrifying work! I don´t recall many composers, who writes something that extremely dark. I never forget theise evil knock sounds near the end! :o
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on January 05, 2008, 11:47:27 AM
I heard the Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern. What a fantastic and terrifying work! I don´t recall many composers, who writes something that extremely dark. I never forget theise evil knock sounds near the end! :o

Which recording do you have?  (I'm amazed that there are actually two to choose from.)  I have this one, with Cambreling conducting:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/412083P073L._AA240_.jpg)

Here is the other one, with Zagrosek:

(http://www.omm.de/cds/musiktheater/cover/KAI-das-maedchen-mit-den-schwefelhoelzern.jpg)

--Bruce
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: edward on January 05, 2008, 12:34:47 PM
FWIW, the ECM version is probably the one to have (I only have the Kairos) as it's the revised, tightened-up version of the opera, with some of the more flaccid sections trimmed and the ...zwei Gefuhle... passage truncated by about one half.

I've not heard the ECM, but the description I've read of the revisions sound like they would improve the opera significantly.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: MDL on January 05, 2008, 02:17:15 PM
FWIW, the ECM version is probably the one to have (I only have the Kairos) as it's the revised, tightened-up version of the opera, with some of the more flaccid sections trimmed and the ...zwei Gefuhle... passage truncated by about one half.

I've not heard the ECM, but the description I've read of the revisions sound like they would improve the opera significantly.

I have the ECM recording. In an article about the ECM label (I can't remember where or when I read it - sorry, I'm useless), one writer claimed that although the ECM version was beautifully recorded, the Kairos version offered the more visceral and perhaps more authentic performance. I've got a few ECM recordings of Part and Kurtag, and I sort of get the impression that no matter how seductive and atmospheric the recordings are, they sound slightly fuzzy and reverberant.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: some guy on January 05, 2008, 03:26:31 PM
Although my particular mania means I'll probably end up with the ECM version of Mädchen, it's good to hear all that about the differences between the two. (I have the Kairos.)

Even though I liked Lachenmann immediately, when that opera came out I still hesitated. Funny things happen to people when they write operas, I feared. Baseless fear, in this case. You know instantly that this is not only echt Lachenmann, it's very good Lachenmann as well.

Coming from me, that's probably valueless: I can't think of anything of his I wouldn't recommend. Maybe  some of the piano stuff. For someone so adept at getting interesting new sounds out of old-timey instruments, his piano music is surprisingly old sounding as well. "Old" here meaning 1930-50ish.

Or do I just need to play that disc again?
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on January 05, 2008, 03:35:43 PM
Coming from me, that's probably valueless: I can't think of anything of his I wouldn't recommend. Maybe  some of the piano stuff. For someone so adept at getting interesting new sounds out of old-timey instruments, his piano music is surprisingly old sounding as well. "Old" here meaning 1930-50ish.

Or do I just need to play that disc again?

[Just an aside, to express mild, pleasant amazement that there are so many here interested in this composer.]

The only piano work I've heard is Guero, which I mentioned above.  Are the others similar?

--Bruce
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: greg on January 05, 2008, 03:39:59 PM
[Just an aside, to express mild, pleasant amazement that there are so many here interested in this composer.]

The only piano work I've heard is Guero, which I mentioned above.  Are the others similar?

--Bruce
nope, here's another, fascinating piece that is also extremely experimental:

http://youtube.com/watch/v/1GGfRVpIUtg

and a few others, one early one being totally Darmstadt style, the others experimental, but i think Guero is pretty unique, actually.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on January 05, 2008, 03:51:08 PM
Oh thanks, that is fantastic!  (Love seeing the audience reactions...a few look like they've been hit with a brick.)  Wolfgang Behrens's playing is really compelling, even with the not-perfect video.  Would love to hear that live...maybe Aimard will program it on one of his concerts. 

--Bruce
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: edward on January 05, 2008, 03:53:13 PM
Yes, there's nothing else in his piano output that's quite like Guero. Probably the closest to it in his career is the solo cello piece Pression, which uses pretty much any possible technique to produce sounds on a cello.

Unless he's written any newer piano pieces, the ones so far are:

Variations on a Theme by Schubert: student piece, think Lutoslawski's Paganini Variations, only for one piano.
Echo Andante and Wiegenmusik: Darmstadt party-line pieces; not particularly exciting to me.
Guero.
Ein Kinderspiel: a sort of deconstruction of children's piano music. (That YouTube video includes one piece from it.)
Serynade: mostly a study in piano resonance and the use of the third pedal on a Steinway.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on January 05, 2008, 03:54:52 PM
Ein Kinderspiel: a sort of deconstruction of children's piano music. (That YouTube video includes one piece from it.)

Thanks for all that, edward.  How long is the whole piece, or suite, or whatever? 

--Bruce
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: edward on January 05, 2008, 03:56:37 PM
Thanks for all that, edward.  How long is the whole piece, or suite, or whatever? 

--Bruce
It's seven pieces totalling about 20 minutes. Don't be too jealous, but I've seen Lachenmann play it live. ;)

There are a few recordings available, including a great cpo disc that includes it with Allegro sostenuto; Pression and Dal niente. I hope it's still in print.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on January 05, 2008, 04:06:34 PM
It's seven pieces totalling about 20 minutes. Don't be too jealous, but I've seen Lachenmann play it live. ;)

There are a few recordings available, including a great cpo disc that includes it with Allegro sostenuto; Pression and Dal niente. I hope it's still in print.

 :o  (Sorry, jealousy already set in.  ;D)

Just checked and it appears to be OOP--two used ones are $69 and $99.  Oh wait, Amazon France has one for only EUR 179,05!  :o  :o  No worries...I'll keep an eye out, and a copy will probably show up at Academy.  (And now I know what the cover looks like, which helps me search for recordings.)

--Bruce
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: edward on January 05, 2008, 04:12:00 PM
There is this recording that includes Guero and Ein Kinderspiel, which is still in print, apparently.

http://www.amazon.com/Helmut-Lachenmann-Piano-Music/dp/B00009W8MW/

I haven't heard it myself, though.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on January 05, 2008, 04:13:25 PM
Ah, thanks.  $22.98...much more reasonable.  ;)

--Bruce
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: uffeviking on January 05, 2008, 04:54:19 PM
Now I can't wait to receive the DVD I ordered today, suffering from an attack of largesse towards myself:

http://www.wergo.de/shop/en_UK/Audio_CDs/1000508/show,215460.html
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: some guy on January 05, 2008, 06:01:15 PM
Guero, yes. Amazing jewel of a piece. Thanks all of you for reminding me of that.

Cool video, too. In a way, good because it's low quality.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on January 30, 2008, 11:14:14 AM
For anyone near NYC (or planning to be), the contemporary music group Either/Or (http://www.eitherormusic.org/) is doing a three-day Lachenmann festival, March 10, 11 and 13 at the Goethe Institut.  The composer will be present, working with the musicians on his String Quartet No. 3, "Grido" and Salut für Caudwell (which I heard them do last fall), and there will be a screening of the documentary ...wo ich noch nie war (2006), a film on Lachenmann by Bettina Ehrhardt, who will also be present.

Here (http://www.goethe.de/ins/us/ney/kue/en2944279.htm) is information about the film, from the Goethe Institut's site.

--Bruce
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: uffeviking on January 30, 2008, 12:11:39 PM
Some day, Dear Bruce, some day you will find an uninvited guest in your guest room, it gets more inviting looking from one New York musical happening to the next! Sure wouldn't want to miss that one. Still waiting for my WERGO DVDs!

Bruce, I'll wash your socks and do your dishes!  0:)
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on January 30, 2008, 12:18:33 PM
Some day, Dear Bruce, some day you will find an uninvited guest in your guest room, it gets more inviting looking from one New York musical happening to the next! Sure wouldn't want to miss that one. Still waiting for my WERGO DVDs!

Bruce, I'll wash your socks and do your dishes!  0:)

 ;D  ;D  ;D

Well, as they say on TV's The Price is Right, "C'mon down!"

--Bruce
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: uffeviking on February 05, 2008, 04:25:45 PM
My largesse I had mentioned before paid off: I now have the WERGO musica viva PAL DVD Furcht und Verlangen, a documentary with some of the composer's works and a discussion between him and the conductor of Klangforum Heidelberg, Walter Nußbaum.

I don't claim to understand that man's work, but I am beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel. It helps how he and the conductor talk about the performances, Lachenmann explaining what he 'hears', how he tries to put the 'sound' - Klang - on paper for the musicians to play and the speaker to 'say'. Fascinating his ...zwei Gefühle with the composer as the speaker. The other two presentations, Consolation I and II are so far out of reach for me, can't even touch them, but his Mouvement almost makes sense. Why? Because I have heard this kind of 'music' before!

I think it was in 1981 when Claude Vivier composed Marco Polo which OpusArte produced on DVD and I was fascinated by the innovative sounds Vivier produced by using the traditional musical instruments in different maneuvers, like rasping the violin bow across the head of the instrument, or speaking into the giant gong. Yes, there are sounds emerging. And today I listened to and watched Lachenmann's work and see it as an extension of what Vivier did many years ago. Unfortunately Vivier was killed in 1983 and his composing brought to a tragic halt. I am not familiar with Lachenmann's composing history, maybe be had the ideas before Vivier, or simultaneous; whatever, it's a great new idea to make one truly listen to Klang! May Lachenmann live many more productive years - and may I live long enough to eventually sing his praises as I do now about Richard Wagner!
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: edward on February 05, 2008, 05:52:30 PM
Lachenmann's ideas do indeed come before Vivier's: the most extreme manifestation of Lachenmann's aesthetic is probably the 1970 'cello piece Pression, which is usually a hit live (even with comparatively conservative audiences) because it's so openly performative and physically gestural. Of course, many other composers have used considerable amounts of extended techniques: Lachenmann's innovation was to use them so much that playing the instrument "normally"--which always happens sooner or later in his work--brings out conventional concert sounds in a totally different and unexpected context.

I'm not surprised you didn't connect with the two Consolations: they're from before Lachenmann's mature style emerged, and while I think he's a fine composer in his mature style, I find his serial period dry as dust. Mouvement is a fairly typical "late" Lachenmann piece in the way that the fractured gestures cohere into references to Austro-German musical traditions.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: uffeviking on February 05, 2008, 08:59:27 PM
Very informative reply, Edward, thank you. It's posts like yours, keeping me at GMG; always learning, receiving new information and keeping me on my toes.

This WERGO DVD helped me understanding Lachenmann in more ways than one: Seeing the composer chatting with his conductor made him a real person, a very charming one too - in spite of his hairdo!  ;)
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on March 11, 2008, 02:39:56 PM
For anyone near NYC (or planning to be), the contemporary music group Either/Or (http://www.eitherormusic.org/) is doing a three-day Lachenmann festival, March 10, 11 and 13 at the Goethe Institut.  The composer will be present, working with the musicians on his String Quartet No. 3, "Grido" and Salut für Caudwell (which I heard them do last fall), and there will be a screening of the documentary ...wo ich noch nie war (2006), a film on Lachenmann by Bettina Ehrhardt, who will also be present.

Here (http://www.goethe.de/ins/us/ney/kue/en2944279.htm) is information about the film, from the Goethe Institut's site.

--Bruce

Logging off in a minute to go to the lecture/demo of Salut für Caudwell, with Lachenmann present!  I've never seen him in person so this is very exciting.  Will report on it all.

--Bruce
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on April 01, 2008, 09:55:37 AM
From a blog new to me, A Spiral Cage, here (http://blog.spiralcage.com/?p=203) is a report on another Lachenmann concert with the composer present (and playing!), at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver.

--Bruce
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: uffeviking on April 01, 2008, 10:04:22 AM
On my Way! It's only a six hour drive to Vancouver! I wonder if they have it on one of the local radio stations because I can get one or two of them, depending on the way the wind blows.

But then I wouldn't even drive over there if he comes down to Seattle; weather still too iffy and lots of delays for avalanche controls. Looks like I'll enjoy my CDs of Lachenmann!

Thanks for the news!
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on April 01, 2008, 10:08:32 AM
Lis, it sounds like UBC has a thriving new music program.  Not sure a six-hour drive would be worth it all the time, but now and then, for something really good, could be worth investigating...

--Bruce
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on November 21, 2008, 10:44:17 AM
Nice review today (here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/14/AR2008111403437_2.html)) in The Washington Post of the Kuss Quartet, playing Lachenmann's Third String Quartet, "Grido."

PS, the group Either/Or is doing the same quartet again next March, here in New York, along with Salut für Caudwell, the piece for two guitarists.  Info here (http://www.eitherormusic.org/concerts.html).

--Bruce
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: greg on November 21, 2008, 12:45:25 PM
Lachenmann's Mouvement


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BHzFggEGS4

I tried following along with the score, but gave up after page 2.  :P
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: niwi on November 14, 2009, 01:56:24 AM
Streichquartett n.3 Grido
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eQiTqVQdHk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eQiTqVQdHk)

Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on January 13, 2012, 09:08:17 AM
Just noticing Lachenmann's Works List is actually pretty small, with what appears to be everything available in cd form. All I have is the SQs. What IS Lachenmann's Top5? The orchestral works, in particular, I can't figure out what's what. HELP!! :o
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on January 13, 2012, 09:24:00 AM
Unfortunately I haven't heard many of his orchestral works (hope to fix in 2012!) but I can recommend the following:

Salut für Caudwell (for two guitars)
Mouvement (for chamber orchestra)
Pression (for cello)
Guero (for piano)
Toccatina (for violin)

If you're operatically inclined, there are actually two recordings of Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern (The Little Match Girl), with the ensemble evoking chilly, icy sounds.

--Bruce

Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: edward on January 13, 2012, 04:46:17 PM
Personal favourites from Lachenmann's orchestral oeuvre:

Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied: the history of German music refracted through a brilliant if pitch-black sense of humour.
Harmonica: a tuba anti-concerto with a wonderful anti-cadenza at the middle.
Staub: Lachenmann's response to a concert companion for Beethoven's 9th; takes hints of that work and grinds them into the dust of the title.
Klangschatten: pianos and strings, never sounding remotely like they usually do: music made from the bits usually left behind, like Plato's shadows on the cave wall.
Schwankungen am Rand: another 70s Lachenmann piece; with remarkable use of thunder sheets.


I didn't think everything orchestral was available on CD: never heard of a recording of Schreiben, nor the very early pieces. Maybe I'm behind the times--I don't even have Concertini yet. :P
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on January 13, 2012, 05:01:28 PM
Personal favourites from Lachenmann's orchestral oeuvre:

Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied: the history of German music refracted through a brilliant if pitch-black sense of humour.
Harmonica: a tuba anti-concerto with a wonderful anti-cadenza at the middle.
Staub: Lachenmann's response to a concert companion for Beethoven's 9th; takes hints of that work and grinds them into the dust of the title.
Klangschatten: pianos and strings, never sounding remotely like they usually do: music made from the bits usually left behind, like Plato's shadows on the cave wall.
Schwankungen am Rand: another 70s Lachenmann piece; with remarkable use of thunder sheets.


I didn't think everything orchestral was available on CD: never heard of a recording of Schreiben, nor the very early pieces. Maybe I'm behind the times--I don't even have Concertini yet. :P

Unfortunately I haven't heard many of his orchestral works (hope to fix in 2012!) but I can recommend the following:

Salut für Caudwell (for two guitars)
Mouvement (for chamber orchestra)
Pression (for cello)
Guero (for piano)
Toccatina (for violin)

If you're operatically inclined, there are actually two recordings of Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern (The Little Match Girl), with the ensemble evoking chilly, icy sounds.

--Bruce

Thanks guys.

I do also have the 'Salut' for two guitars, a very...mm...interesting piece.

I'm going to take it that the cd with the 'Rand' piece is the one everyone's pointing me to. I'll check your recommends against the Amazon.

And, yes, I find the Opera in the same 'place' that I find Holliger's 'Scardinelli Cycle', a piece I love for its ennui sounding music,... I picture the Lachenmann sounding similar,... very quite and chilly,... that's right up my alley. brrrrrr

btw- I'm sure I was off saying 'everything' was recorded,,,
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Joaquimhock on January 30, 2012, 11:32:30 PM
Wikipedia mentions a  "Concerto for 8 Horns and Orchestra (2010–11), for Musica Viva Munich" as his most recent work. Has anybody heard about it? Has it already been  premiered ?
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: edward on January 31, 2012, 06:54:51 AM
Sounds intriguing; I can easily imagine how that might work with Lachenmann's style.

It's hard to tell what to think, though; it's not mentioned on Lachenmann's publisher's page, and Musica viva Munich appears to be one of those retro organizations who still don't have a web site.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on January 31, 2012, 08:11:04 AM
Schwankungen am Rand
Lachenmann’s supple philosophical distinction between music and noise can take some acclimatization, but his 1975 orchestral piece Schwankungen am Rand (Fluctuations at the Boundaries) articulates the arguments with clarity, and is the perfect primer. String and brass players must bend their technique to Lachenmann’s characteristically exacting specifications – blowing, hitting and scraping their instruments to harvest mint-fresh timbres. In the unfolding musical argument another layer is provided by thunder sheets – large sheets of metal, modified by Lachenmann himself for this piece – which percussionists play with conventional percussion mallets and with nails, hammers and their fingers. As the jagged sounds overlap and blend, Lachenmann explains that his thunder sheets “turn into radically deformed monster violins with super-pizzicato-fluido sounds” – while the actual orchestral violins, by extension, are transformed into resonating sound objects resolutely turned away from their usual orchestral function. Inside this viciously expressive music is another kind of beauty.


Ensemble Modern Orchestra; Eotvos (ECM New Series; with Mouvement (-vor der Erstarrung) & … zwei Gefuhle … Musik mit Leonardo) This landmark 2002 release put Schwankungen am Rand on the map as a forgotten masterpiece of modernist music. Hungarian conductor Peter Eotvos – himself a composer – shepherds those crack musicians of the Frankfurt-based Ensemble Modern through Lachenmann’s thirty-minute structure without compromising his elemental sound-world

Gran Torso
It’s no coincidence that the title of Lachenmann’s first string quartet, Gran Torso, completed in 1972 and revised six years later, has echoes of Beethoven’s Grosse Fuge. Beethoven’s work is considered the most technically demanding quartet writing of the nineteenth century and Lachenmann, similarly, aims to re-radicalize the language of the string quartet. Beginning with hushed sonorities perched at the edge of audibility, he generates structural arcs that his extended instrumental techniques simultaneously shatter – long sustained passages are ripped apart by abrupt scrapings, while manic pizzicatos send melodic cells scattering to the outer limits of our ability to hear them. Beethoven’s Grosse Fuge trashed the formality of the fugue by twisting its conventions against itself. Lachenmann applies a comparable mindset to every parameter of the string quartet. And like Beethoven, Gran Torso defined a wholly fresh approach to the string quartet that generations of younger composers have been keen to follow up on.


Arditti Quartet (Kairos; with String Quartet Nos. 2 & 3) Not easy music to nail, but no group performs this repertoire better than the Arditti Quartet. If the sounds Lachenmann hears in his inner ear move off the radar of conventional instrumental timbre, the Ardittis unerringly zone into his intentions, realizing his ideas faithfully.

(Rough Guide to Classical Music, 5th Edition)

I think that 'Rand' cd will be my introduction then. Thanks. (unless you can think of a better introduction)
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on June 29, 2012, 07:16:45 AM
On BBC Radio 3 tomorrow at 22:30 (UK time) from Aldeburgh, Ensemble Modern in music of Helmut Lachenmann:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01k9s9l

Lachenmann: Zwei Gefuhle
Lachenmann: Accanto
Ensemble Modern
Franck Ollu (conductor)

--Bruce
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on June 29, 2012, 09:59:35 AM
Does anyone have both the Arditti/Kairos and the Calder/Neos cds of the SQs? Can you save me from getting them both?,... please!! :-*
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on June 29, 2012, 10:02:00 AM
On BBC Radio 3 tomorrow at 22:30 (UK time) from Aldeburgh, Ensemble Modern in music of Helmut Lachenmann:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01k9s9l

Lachenmann: Zwei Gefuhle
Lachenmann: Accanto
Ensemble Modern
Franck Ollu (conductor)

--Bruce

Just to be fair, I clicked on the Thread without knowing it was up (I was searching,... you know, we have to say these things! ;D). There must be Lachenmann in the air?
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: katewishing on June 29, 2012, 03:23:49 PM
Das Mädchen in full:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma-ROiDJN5M
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: ibanezmonster on July 03, 2012, 08:32:31 AM
Das Mädchen in full:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma-ROiDJN5M
Wonderful. As soon as I get 2 hours, I'll have to listen to this. Just skimming through this, it looks promising!
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: ibanezmonster on March 18, 2013, 06:57:55 AM
I hate how some of these older composers have no online presence, so it's really hard to track what they're working on.

Is the list of works on Lachenmann's wiki page THE complete list? I've saved quite a few works of his from youtube, but it's not enough for me.  :P Stuff like the Concerto for 8 Horns or Staub look interesting, but I'm wondering if they've even been performed.  :-\
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: edward on March 18, 2013, 11:27:56 AM
Staub (which apparently was intended to be played before Beethoven's Ninth) has been recorded on this interesting disc:

http://www.amazon.com/Sinfonische-Musik-1980-1990/dp/B00004ZC30/

... have asin links gone the way of the dodo while I wasn't noticing?

Recommended, though I used to have an aircheck that I felt was a better performance (not sure what happened to it).

The Concerto for 8 Horns and Orchestra isn't mentioned at his publisher's, so I'm not sure what its provenance is.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Joaquimhock on March 18, 2013, 12:05:49 PM
I hate how some of these older composers have no online presence, so it's really hard to track what they're working on.

Is the list of works on Lachenmann's wiki page THE complete list? I've saved quite a few works of his from youtube, but it's not enough for me.  :P Stuff like the Concerto for 8 Horns or Staub look interesting, but I'm wondering if they've even been performed.  :-\

from: http://www.br.de/radio/br-klassik/orchester-chor/musica-viva/kalender-symphonieorchester-musica-viva-eoetvoes-abo-fuenf102.html

Die für diesen Termin ursprünglich geplante Uraufführung der "Musik für acht Hörner" von Helmut Lachenmann, ein Kompositionsauftrag der musica viva des Bayerischen Rundfunks, wurde auf Samstag, 8. Februar 2014 verschoben. Damit verschiebt sich auch die Aufführung der Beethoven-Bearbeitung von Manuel Hidalgo  "Große Fuge B-Dur op. 133 [1825]" auf den gleichen Termin.

which basicaly means that the premiere of the work for 8 horns has been cancelled. It will be perfoemd on the 8th of february...2014...


Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: ibanezmonster on March 18, 2013, 02:32:50 PM
from: http://www.br.de/radio/br-klassik/orchester-chor/musica-viva/kalender-symphonieorchester-musica-viva-eoetvoes-abo-fuenf102.html

Die für diesen Termin ursprünglich geplante Uraufführung der "Musik für acht Hörner" von Helmut Lachenmann, ein Kompositionsauftrag der musica viva des Bayerischen Rundfunks, wurde auf Samstag, 8. Februar 2014 verschoben. Damit verschiebt sich auch die Aufführung der Beethoven-Bearbeitung von Manuel Hidalgo  "Große Fuge B-Dur op. 133 [1825]" auf den gleichen Termin.

which basicaly means that the premiere of the work for 8 horns has been cancelled. It will be perfoemd on the 8th of february...2014...
Thanks for the info.



Staub (which apparently was intended to be played before Beethoven's Ninth) has been recorded on this interesting disc:

http://www.amazon.com/Sinfonische-Musik-1980-1990/dp/B00004ZC30/

... have asin links gone the way of the dodo while I wasn't noticing?

Recommended, though I used to have an aircheck that I felt was a better performance (not sure what happened to it).

The Concerto for 8 Horns and Orchestra isn't mentioned at his publisher's, so I'm not sure what its provenance is.
1 new from $130.93

 :-\
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: edward on April 19, 2013, 04:27:07 AM
Meanwhile, Lachenmann appears for the first time in the BBC Proms this season, with the Ardittis as soloists in Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied--one of those occasions where I greatly wish I still lived in the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2013/july-15/14558
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on April 19, 2013, 06:06:08 AM
Does anyone have both the Arditti/Kairos and the Calder/Neos cds of the SQs? Can you save me from getting them both?,... please!! :-*

Apparently Grant Chu Covell can't really distinguish between the two.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on April 19, 2013, 10:41:37 AM
wow, talk about quiet at gmg today.


hear the crickets?



(ha, that's a Lachenmann joke, haha)
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on April 20, 2014, 08:29:36 AM
Anyone check these out yet .. ?




ah, beat me to it

Let me ask you: have you too been rummaging the idea of acquiring all three String Quartet Cycles? :o ??? :o gasp  ??? :o leopold  ??? :o gasp Seriously, Lachenmann is ONE Composer where I find it quite humorous that we we now have three Cycles- I mean, come ON, once you have mastered Lachenmann's soundworld, aren't you pretty much going to HAVE to sound like what he wants, ergo, how can there be much variation? Grant Chu Covell said he couldn't detect much difference between the Arditti or Stadler... I know those JACK Xenakis/Mode recordings have quite a super slick yummy sheen to them which might work really well in Lachenmann depending on how they're mic'd- but how can one live with oneself if one doesn't get all three just because? hmm? I mean, how many versions of 'Pression' do we have- ok, I'm not complaining...

... gets more tea...

SOMEONE PLEASE!!

GET ALL THREE SQ CYCLES (kAIROS, NEOS, MODE) AND REPORT BACK ASAP!! (This sounds like a job for... ) (I wooould do it but...


Here, I'd love to tell you my dilemma here. We have all these great Lachenmann Cycles, then we have a Sciarrino Cycle (one CD) on Kairos too, and then, because I believe him to be part of this group, we have the Holliger SQ 2 on ECM to contend with (on an expensive 2CD set). You could even add the Rihm Cycle to that if you wanted (but I'd like a little more variety- what? just one Cycle for Rihm?? shocked).

So, in my latest CDCDCD craze, I purposely left off an SQs because that would have sent me into orbit. But that just means that the SQ front is getting bigger, and I guess we'll have to tackle that at some point, BUT HERE IS THE POINT- how can you get Lachenmann with Sciarrino, and how can you get them with Holliger?,... and, if you get them all, why not just add Rihm into the mix for colour?

So, I held off on the SQs!

I got bit in the ass with my last "Brand New Composer" foray into the SQs (Rueda and Posadas, both on Kairos (both interesting, but... I have not gotten any new since)), so, I'm being really conservative, wanting only to add Masterpieces, of which I hear that Holliger  SQ 2 is one. Rihm's 11th, out on Wergo, sounds much like Mahler/Berg, a great foil to that Arditti 12.

I'm chubbin' :P...
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: petrarch on April 20, 2014, 10:06:45 AM
Anyone check these out yet .. ?




I have the first one, which I got for the interviews and filmed performances of Pression and Guero, even though I already had the pieces in the various Montaigne releases.

I don't have the second one because I am happy with the Arditti recordings on Kairos. I might get it on impulse if I feel the need to buy something and there's nothing immediately obvious to satiate that thirst.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: petrarch on April 20, 2014, 11:16:15 AM
Shame MODE didn't release the SQs as a video performance too, like that did with JACK/Xenakis

They say the DVD will eventually be released.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: CRCulver on June 01, 2014, 12:12:35 AM
Would someone who owns the old Montaigne recording with the Ardittis performing Reigen seliger Geister and Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied please tell me the recording dates of those two pieces, and what the exact lineup of the Arditti Quartet was at the time?
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: amw on June 01, 2014, 03:04:42 PM
It's Arditti/Alberman/Knox/de Saram, recorded 1994 I think.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: CRCulver on June 01, 2014, 03:17:24 PM
It's Arditti/Alberman/Knox/de Saram, recorded 1994 I think.

Could you actually check the booklet, please? I am aware that the disc was released in 1994, but I have not been able to determine the actual year of recording.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: amw on June 01, 2014, 04:13:47 PM
Unfortunately the actual disc is currently in a box, waiting to be loaded into a shipping container to cross the Pacific, so I can't. Edward might know
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: edward on June 04, 2014, 04:01:34 AM
Arditti/Alberman/Knox/de Saram; 1990 for Reigen seliger geister, 1991 for Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: CRCulver on June 04, 2014, 08:49:54 AM
Arditti/Alberman/Knox/de Saram; 1990 for Reigen seliger geister, 1991 for Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied.

Thanks.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on June 04, 2014, 09:03:45 AM
Thanks.

so,... are you gonna tell us what your project is? huh? huh? tell us!! tell us!!
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: CRCulver on June 04, 2014, 10:28:10 AM
so,... are you gonna tell us what your project is? huh? huh? tell us!! tell us!!

In my system of tagging media files, I disambiguate two different recordings of one piece by the same artist by means of the recording date. That's all. I knew when the recent Kairos CD with Lachenmann's String Quartet No. 2 was recorded, but I didn't know when the Arditti's first recording was made, as I don't have a copy of that disc (just a filesharing community download).
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: edward on December 31, 2014, 12:22:29 PM
Good news for Lachenmann fans: Kairos releases CD premieres of Schreiben and Double (Grido II) in February:

Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: ibanezmonster on December 31, 2014, 02:02:39 PM
Good news for Lachenmann fans: Kairos releases CD premieres of Schreiben and Double (Grido II) in February:


Cool!  :)
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Artem on December 31, 2014, 06:15:27 PM
I'm also looking forward to it. Love Kairos.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Oclock on December 17, 2015, 08:53:42 AM
A (little) new interview with Lachenmann:

Helmut Lachenmann: "I never intended to disturb, I just followed my musical visions"

http://www.chorrodeluz.net/2015/12/helmut-lachenmann-i-never-intended-to.html


Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on December 17, 2015, 09:04:33 AM
A (little) new interview with Lachenmann:

Helmut Lachenmann: "I never intended to disturb, I just followed my musical visions"

http://www.chorrodeluz.net/2015/12/helmut-lachenmann-i-never-intended-to.html

I thought there was a fued between him and Sciarrino, but here he mentions Sciarrino's name in a favorable light... or was it Rihm????
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Mandryka on December 18, 2015, 07:07:12 AM
A (little) new interview with Lachenmann:

Helmut Lachenmann: "I never intended to disturb, I just followed my musical visions"

http://www.chorrodeluz.net/2015/12/helmut-lachenmann-i-never-intended-to.html


What do you think this means?

Quote
The C-major sound in the Jupitersymphonie  has he same three notes, Do-Mi-Sol,  as Wagners  ouverture from Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg: But it is a totally different sound for it is a totallcont 


Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Oclock on December 18, 2015, 02:40:27 PM

What do you think this means?
 



Sorry... "But it is a totally different sound for it is a totally different context"  ;)               
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Mandryka on December 19, 2015, 03:27:18 AM
Sorry... "But it is a totally different sound for it is a totally different context"  ;)               

Aha. I should have guessed!

What I thought was most interesting (maybe everyone else is familiar with it already) was the idea that the move from Mozart to Beethoven and on to Wagner is like the move to "modern" Schoenberg and on to Lachenmann. This is exactly how I "feel" as a listener with no real musical education. But I have no idea whether the thesis will hold water.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: edward on December 21, 2015, 09:31:08 AM
Two new Lachenmann releases from Neos... somewhat disappointingly low playing time and nothing previously unrecorded, but Aimard in Ausklang sounds like a treat.

Ausklang - Aimard, SOBR, Nott (https://neos-music.com/?language=english&page=output.php%3Ftemplate%3Denglish-album-details.php%26content%3DAlben/11423.php)
Zwei Gefühle / Schreiben - Lachenmann, SOBR, Eötvös / Mälkki (https://neos-music.com/?language=english&page=output.php%3Ftemplate%3Denglish-album-details.php%26content%3DAlben/11424.php)
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on December 27, 2015, 11:52:09 AM
Two new Lachenmann releases from Neos... somewhat disappointingly low playing time and nothing previously unrecorded, but Aimard in Ausklang sounds like a treat.

Ausklang - Aimard, SOBR, Nott (https://neos-music.com/?language=english&page=output.php%3Ftemplate%3Denglish-album-details.php%26content%3DAlben/11423.php)
Zwei Gefühle / Schreiben - Lachenmann, SOBR, Eötvös / Mälkki (https://neos-music.com/?language=english&page=output.php%3Ftemplate%3Denglish-album-details.php%26content%3DAlben/11424.php)

Rihm-Lachenmann-Sciarrino.... the three headed beast of the 'Last Generation' of Ultra Moderns... plugging away.... who will end up in the NY Times first?? front page, LOL


I'm massively losing hope concerning that Mode/Xenakis series... it's been almost two years since a release, and I was promised three for 2015, none of which materialized...
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna WHY DON'T I LIKE LACHENMANN??
Post by: snyprrr on June 04, 2016, 06:00:41 AM
Why Don't I Like Lachenmann?

I have had his first String Quartet on that old old ColLegno production with the 'Salut fur Caudwell', and always enjoyed its "all sounds" approach of scratching and clawing for every eighth note. And I also enjoy the 2nd SQ, what is it?, 'Dance of the Blessed Spirits' or something?,- but I didn't care too much for the concerto for SQ and Orchestra, 'Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandleid'.

Since I've been on a German Rampage of late, like much of the world, so, I always avoid Helmut, but I listened to Aimard's Ausklang on YT... and it just went on... and on... and on... and I've had similar problems with his pieces of length.

I did enjoy the samples of the ECM Opera, and that may seem to be the way to go? All those Kairos doscs...



And, frankly, the Discography doesn't seem all that large at all.  What's wrong with me??
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna WHY DON'T I LIKE LACHENMANN??
Post by: Ken B on June 04, 2016, 06:19:31 AM
Why Don't I Like Lachenmann?

I have had his first String Quartet on that old old ColLegno production with the 'Salut fur Caudwell', and always enjoyed its "all sounds" approach of scratching and clawing for every eighth note. And I also enjoy the 2nd SQ, what is it?, 'Dance of the Blessed Spirits' or something?,- but I didn't care too much for the concerto for SQ and Orchestra, 'Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandleid'.

Since I've been on a German Rampage of late, like much of the world, so, I always avoid Helmut, but I listened to Aimard's Ausklang on YT... and it just went on... and on... and on... and I've had similar problems with his pieces of length.

I did enjoy the samples of the ECM Opera, and that may seem to be the way to go? All those Kairos doscs...



And, frankly, the Discography doesn't seem all that large at all.  What's wrong with me??

"Why" and "snyprrr" should never be used in the same sentence.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: nathanb on June 04, 2016, 03:50:51 PM
Rihm-Lachenmann-Sciarrino.... the three headed beast of the 'Last Generation' of Ultra Moderns... plugging away.... who will end up in the NY Times first?? front page, LOL


I'm massively losing hope concerning that Mode/Xenakis series... it's been almost two years since a release, and I was promised three for 2015, none of which materialized...

Off topic, but have you acquired the new one yet? It's a DVD, but has a rather unique work. I will probably acquire it soon, along with Mode's Czernowin opera.

I love Lachenmann to pieces, but I'm not particularly in the mood to try to explain why, right this moment.

And I'm not sure what qualifies as "ultra-modern", but I'd say the Kurtag-Cerha-Huber triad of 90 year old masters is the one teetering on the edge of tragedy in my mind. As for Rihm-Lachenmann-Sciarrino, only Sciarrino seems to be particularly interested in pushing forward still. Lachenmann composition has slowed, as the interview says, and Rihm has been coming down from a 40-year high for 10 years now. Well, I guess Sound As Will was a pretty cool piece.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on June 05, 2016, 05:23:59 AM
Off topic, but have you acquired the new one yet? It's a DVD, but has a rather unique work. I will probably acquire it soon, along with Mode's Czernowin opera.

I love Lachenmann to pieces, but I'm not particularly in the mood to try to explain why, right this moment.

And I'm not sure what qualifies as "ultra-modern", but I'd say the Kurtag-Cerha-Huber triad of 90 year old masters is the one teetering on the edge of tragedy in my mind. As for Rihm-Lachenmann-Sciarrino, only Sciarrino seems to be particularly interested in pushing forward still. Lachenmann composition has slowed, as the interview says, and Rihm has been coming down from a 40-year high for 10 years now. Well, I guess Sound As Will was a pretty cool piece.

Mode/Xenakis DVD? NEW??? Brand new???


Please do tell me about Lachenmann... I just haven't heard the piece that clicks (except String Quartets)... maybe the Opera, but... his Works List is really quite small...
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: nathanb on June 06, 2016, 02:33:03 PM
Mode/Xenakis DVD? NEW??? Brand new???


Please do tell me about Lachenmann... I just haven't heard the piece that clicks (except String Quartets)... maybe the Opera, but... his Works List is really quite small...

Not sure what qualifies as brand new, but more recent than those you mentioned, yes. It's got two versions of a unique "game piece".

Lachenmann? Well, the thing is, you're talking to someone who is relatively illiterate in terms of talking about musicological matters. I'm more prone to tell you "Lachenmann's music makes my thighs warm", but here goes. I just love Lachenmann. His music's most central elements are so simple (music = sound, that's it, kbye) and yet, in execution, the music is so complex. I've heard his music compared to pointillism, and I have to say this analogy does it for me; his music takes on a character far greater than the sum of its parts. Also, when you listen to Lachenmann, you can't predict the kind of piece you're going to get just by checking the scoring; that cute little "Toccatina" for solo violin, is just about the last thing you'd expect from a solo violin piece. But the orchestral works. My god, the scale. The very words "for large orchestra" tend to get me excited, so you can imagine how I feel just thinking about a Lachenmann piece. Like Grisey and Stockhausen, he took his own personal idiom to Wagnerian proportions.

Some favorite pieces besides the opera and the quartets would be "Harmonica", "Pression", "Ausklang", "Schwankungen Am Rand", and so on. I'm sorry. I'm not very good at this. I can be somewhat literate about the absolute favorites of mine like Cage and Stockhausen, but the literacy quickly tapers off, in spite of how much I love Lachenmann, Furrer, and so on.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on June 06, 2016, 06:28:56 PM
Not sure what qualifies as brand new, but more recent than those you mentioned, yes. It's got two versions of a unique "game piece".

Lachenmann? Well, the thing is, you're talking to someone who is relatively illiterate in terms of talking about musicological matters. I'm more prone to tell you "Lachenmann's music makes my thighs warm", but here goes. I just love Lachenmann. His music's most central elements are so simple (music = sound, that's it, kbye) and yet, in execution, the music is so complex. I've heard his music compared to pointillism, and I have to say this analogy does it for me; his music takes on a character far greater than the sum of its parts. Also, when you listen to Lachenmann, you can't predict the kind of piece you're going to get just by checking the scoring; that cute little "Toccatina" for solo violin, is just about the last thing you'd expect from a solo violin piece. But the orchestral works. My god, the scale. The very words "for large orchestra" tend to get me excited, so you can imagine how I feel just thinking about a Lachenmann piece. Like Grisey and Stockhausen, he took his own personal idiom to Wagnerian proportions.

Some favorite pieces besides the opera and the quartets would be "Harmonica", "Pression", "Ausklang", "Schwankungen Am Rand", and so on. I'm sorry. I'm not very good at this. I can be somewhat literate about the absolute favorites of mine like Cage and Stockhausen, but the literacy quickly tapers off, in spite of how much I love Lachenmann, Furrer, and so on.

No reason to apologize about being "relatively illiterate in terms of talking about musicological matters." What matters is that you find his work so gripping (as I do). I've also heard Pression (wonderful), but haven't heard many of his large orchestral works. And though I didn't post anything about it here, in 2014 the JACK Quartet did an incredible, memorable night of all three string quartets, here at the Morgan Library. (The Morgan's small hall is acoustically quite marvelous, allowing even the tiniest details to be audible.) The sold-out audience was completely in his corner - absolutely quiet for about 90 minutes - and the ovations at the end were huge.

One composer I know described Lachenmann (perhaps hyperbolically, but still) as "the Beethoven of the late 20th century," and if I am hesitant to totally agree, I see what he's getting at. His innovations have influenced countless younger composers all over the world, and he is quite revered by many. What makes him among the greats (whether or not of Beethoven status) is his ability to explore the outer limits of musicianship, and create music unlike anyone else. Personally - and I'm not a Lachenmann scholar, either - I think he casts a very long shadow.

--Bruce
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on June 06, 2016, 08:11:20 PM
No reason to apologize about being "relatively illiterate in terms of talking about musicological matters." What matters is that you find his work so gripping (as I do). I've also heard Pression (wonderful), but haven't heard many of his large orchestral works. And though I didn't post anything about it here, in 2014 the JACK Quartet did an incredible, memorable night of all three string quartets, here at the Morgan Library. (The Morgan's small hall is acoustically quite marvelous, allowing even the tiniest details to be audible.) The sold-out audience was completely in his corner - absolutely quiet for about 90 minutes - and the ovations at the end were huge.

One composer I know described Lachenmann (perhaps hyperbolically, but still) as "the Beethoven of the late 20th century," and if I am hesitant to totally agree, I see what he's getting at. His innovations have influenced countless younger composers all over the world, and he is quite revered by many. What makes him among the greats (whether or not of Beethoven status) is his ability to explore the outer limits of musicianship, and create music unlike anyone else. Personally - and I'm not a Lachenmann scholar, either - I think he casts a very long shadow.

--Bruce

I did go through his Works List, and I was surprised that a lot of his stuff was mid-'60s, cause Ruzicka was writing this kind of stuff after 1970. And BAZ's influence is also strong.

So, what? Lachenmann DID invent the... uh... "scratch 'n' sniff" "UltraPointallism"???

Maybe I just take noise/sound-for-music for granted, so I don't hear much "special". I mean, yes, the Opera does use "frosty" and "cold" imagery to Lachrenmann's technique- his brittle sounds seem to work perfectly with the wintry theme. But elsewhere, the bits I've heard ... maybe he is too Beethovenian for me,- too self-willed. Maybe that's why he and Sciarrino have'had?? a row?? because Sciarrino seems to just let the sounds be themselves, whereas Lachenmann has to make them mean something? I don't need drama along with my wacky sounds. Wacky sounds work just fine by themselves... but... ok... I get it...

But... 'Ausklang' did seem to have a slight longeur?

Not sure what qualifies as brand new, but more recent than those you mentioned, yes. It's got two versions of a unique "game piece".

Lachenmann? Well, the thing is, you're talking to someone who is relatively illiterate in terms of talking about musicological matters. I'm more prone to tell you "Lachenmann's music makes my thighs warm", but here goes. I just love Lachenmann. His music's most central elements are so simple (music = sound, that's it, kbye) and yet, in execution, the music is so complex. I've heard his music compared to pointillism, and I have to say this analogy does it for me; his music takes on a character far greater than the sum of its parts. Also, when you listen to Lachenmann, you can't predict the kind of piece you're going to get just by checking the scoring; that cute little "Toccatina" for solo violin, is just about the last thing you'd expect from a solo violin piece. But the orchestral works. My god, the scale. The very words "for large orchestra" tend to get me excited, so you can imagine how I feel just thinking about a Lachenmann piece. Like Grisey and Stockhausen, he took his own personal idiom to Wagnerian proportions.

Some favorite pieces besides the opera and the quartets would be "Harmonica", "Pression", "Ausklang", "Schwankungen Am Rand", and so on. I'm sorry. I'm not very good at this. I can be somewhat literate about the absolute favorites of mine like Cage and Stockhausen, but the literacy quickly tapers off, in spite of how much I love Lachenmann, Furrer, and so on.

Now, 'Pression' is the Clarinet Trio, right? Who's tops here?

And sure,- any tuba concerto's gotta be fun... and I still have to try that ECM '...Rand' disc...


But, all the Kairos discs didn't do much for me, sampling,...


Anyhow, I should just say, "Thanks just more Lachenmann for you guys!" I don't neeeeeeeed to become obsessed with a potential money pit right now, oy vey!!



I just find his Works List so small......
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: nathanb on June 07, 2016, 06:00:05 PM
On one hand, your assessment is fair, unlike assessments not actually based on the music.

On the other hand, the only people who consistently reject the "maybe listen more?" suggestion tend to be the people in complete opposition to contemporary music in general, so... maybe listen more? :)
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: edward on June 08, 2016, 04:57:47 AM
I did go through his Works List, and I was surprised that a lot of his stuff was mid-'60s, cause Ruzicka was writing this kind of stuff after 1970. And BAZ's influence is also strong.
I think you can roughly fit mature Lachenmann into two phases: one from the mid-60s to mid-70s where he's staking out the areas he's working in, and another from the mid-70s on, beginning with Accanto, where he's now applying what he discovered in the previous phase to the history of Germanic art music.

I wonder if there's going to be any more music from him. The concerto for eight horns is so many years overdue now.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on June 08, 2016, 06:20:19 AM
On one hand, your assessment is fair, unlike assessments not actually based on the music.

On the other hand, the only people who consistently reject the "maybe listen more?" suggestion tend to be the people in complete opposition to contemporary music in general, so... maybe listen more? :)

Last Night's Speed Listening:


1) '...und Rand'

OK, finally went through this one, which would have been the HL I would have already gotten years ago if it weren't still so expensive. So, - here's a disclaimer- when I hear works such as this, all I can ever "see" is the large room they are recording in. And, here, it's a pretty nice big room. So, when I hear things like this, I can't "see" the fantastical imagery of my mind's invention, all I see is actual musicians sitting in a hall playing. And, frankly, somehow, this music came off somewhat "jazzy".

Maybe I've grown up with non-traditional playing techniques to the point where there is no real thrill from hearing this piece. I'm like, OK, I've already heard his disciples for three decades, now the master isn't really doing it for me. All I'm hearing is musicians playing their instruments oddly, like an uber-serious Kagel.

So, I'm kind of glad the disc hasn't been cheaper... errrrrrr...


2) 'Pression'

I thought it was the Clarinet Trio, but, no, it's the infamous cello piece,... which i'd never heard.

Oy vey- I thought, Oh, you mean that piece I played into a tape recorder way back when- you mean someone actually wrote that in the '60s? LOL!

Yea, again, I've lived THROUGH this piece, I didn't really even need to hear it. I did enjoy the shorter, 7:30 performance rather than the lazier 12:30 performance (on YT). This kind of music alwaaays needs to be played at its quickest. Anyway, I just can't be a cheerleader for this stuff anymore- there are just so many other ways of "dealing" with the cello. Here i think Xenakis is head and antlers above the Germans in terms of going towards the brink.

Which leads us to...


3) 'Toccatina'


HAAAATED IT!!!!!!!!

Somewhat infuriating- again, sounds like something I wanked into a tape recorder once... sure, I'm not that "precise", but... puh-leeze, no wonder Europe is being cleansed with a muslim horde- it's because of works like this?!?!?!?! There are so many better ways to spend five minutes on a violin. Come on.


4) ALLEGRO SOSTENUTO

OK, I liked this one from the get go. Everything I wanted to hear from Helmut was here. I'll just leave it to that. Great stuff!!!


5) HARMONICA
     AIR

I liked both of these concertos- more stuff happening... fun... 'nuff said...







Well, that was last night. It just seems I bring a lot of baggage to my Lachenmann listening, and with him I feel the right to be extremely picky as to what I'll soak in. I won't let him lecture and hector me- which is a feeling I try not to encourage (that he's just being a wanker and trying to piss me off with rude sounds).

No, I definitely have a Lachenmann "problem", even though there are pieces I like (SQs, Opera, others)


oops, late for work...
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: 5against4 on June 12, 2016, 05:12:02 AM
Two new Lachenmann releases from Neos... somewhat disappointingly low playing time and nothing previously unrecorded, but Aimard in Ausklang sounds like a treat.

Ausklang - Aimard, SOBR, Nott (https://neos-music.com/?language=english&page=output.php%3Ftemplate%3Denglish-album-details.php%26content%3DAlben/11423.php)
Zwei Gefühle / Schreiben - Lachenmann, SOBR, Eötvös / Mälkki (https://neos-music.com/?language=english&page=output.php%3Ftemplate%3Denglish-album-details.php%26content%3DAlben/11424.php)
(https://neos-music.com/images/covers-large/NEOS_11423_mv23_Lachenmann.jpg) (https://neos-music.com/images/covers-large/NEOS_11424_mv24_Lachenmann.jpg)
I finally got round to reviewing these two albums today, having had them staring at me increasingly accusingly for the last couple of months.
Both highly recommended (review here (http://5against4.com/2016/06/12/new-releases-helmut-lachenmann-ausklang-zwei-gefuhle-musik-mit-leonardo-schreiben/)) - Aimard is indeed a treat in Ausklang, although the piece has some issues concerning its duration. But Zwei Gefühle and Schreiben both sound magnificent, really vivid and immersive performances.

It's a fair comment what you say about running time, although i'm personally of the view that anything above 40 minutes constitutes a decent album. Whether that album is worth paying £15+ for, is another question entirely...
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: nathanb on June 12, 2016, 05:23:04 AM
Thanks for the review, I haven't gotten those two yet because I have those works, but it's becoming inevitable just because of the label/series/performers/etc....
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: 5against4 on June 12, 2016, 05:32:00 AM
Thanks for the review, I haven't gotten those two yet because I have those works, but it's becoming inevitable just because of the label/series/performers/etc....

NEOS is a remarkable label, the rate at which they put out such great music/performances is somewhat amazing. i have two more of their recent releases awaiting my attention and more to come… How do they do it?
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on June 12, 2016, 05:41:03 AM
NEOS is a remarkable label, the rate at which they put out such great music/performances is somewhat amazing. i have two more of their recent releases awaiting my attention and more to come… How do they do it?

wish they'd give us some unrecorded/neglected Xenakis   :(
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: 5against4 on June 12, 2016, 06:03:57 AM
wish they'd give us some unrecorded/neglected Xenakis   :(
Well, they've included the German premiere of Xenakis' ST/4-1,080262 for string quartet on their latest box set, featuring recordings from throughout the history of Darmstadt. Deets here (https://neos-music.com/?language=english&page=output.php%3Ftemplate%3Denglish-album-details.php%26content%3DAlben/11230.php). There'll be some Xenakis on the next volume as well.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: nathanb on June 12, 2016, 12:12:29 PM
While we're briefly off-topic with the non-Lachenmann NEOS commentary, can either of you tell me how their Blu-Ray audio format works? It's specifically used for the ContactoTango disc. Can it at least be ripped to a computer or is it completely unrecognizable to all things besides Blu-Ray?
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: 5against4 on June 13, 2016, 03:35:32 AM
While we're briefly off-topic with the non-Lachenmann NEOS commentary, can either of you tell me how their Blu-Ray audio format works? It's specifically used for the ContactoTango disc. Can it at least be ripped to a computer or is it completely unrecognizable to all things besides Blu-Ray?
It's simply the Blu-Ray equivalent of DVD Audio, in this case containing high-resolution (96 kHz/24 Bit) audio files of the music, in both stereo and surround versions. With the right software it could be ripped/copied to your computer, but you'd obviously need a Blu-Ray drive to do it.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on June 13, 2016, 03:20:02 PM
NEOS is a remarkable label, the rate at which they put out such great music/performances is somewhat amazing. i have two more of their recent releases awaiting my attention and more to come… How do they do it?

So, what will convince of Lachenmann, in your view? How do you come him with Sciarrino? Don't they have a feud? ... with Rihm also?...lol...
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: CRCulver on January 10, 2017, 11:16:47 PM
Anyone who doesn't get Lachenmann, but only knows his work from CD recordings, might want to check out the large amount of videos now available on YouTube, or Wergo's Lachenmann DVD (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3795778026?ie=UTF8&tag=3636363-20&camp=1789&linkCode=xm2&creativeASIN=3795778026). So much of his unusual instrumental writing is visual, so you really need a visual medium to understand what he's doing instead of those anonymous rustlings on a CD.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: nodogen on July 08, 2017, 12:12:52 PM
WTF? And that's in a good way.

https://youtu.be/tvu_kMbZsZc
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on November 18, 2017, 06:09:24 PM
Does anyone have any opinions on which is the best recordings of the string quartets?

Also, listening to Ausklang right now.

I am curious to learn more about his compositional process actually........................
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Mandryka on November 19, 2017, 12:56:23 AM
I'd  be very interested to hear comments on the Diotima Quartet's recording of the 2nd, which I'm thinking of buying,
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Mandryka on November 19, 2017, 01:27:59 AM
Does anyone have any opinions on which is the best recordings of the string quartets?



I do like what Arditti do, the timbres, the silences, the recording perspective, the way they build and release tension.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on November 20, 2017, 02:38:02 PM
Does anyone have any opinions on which is the best recordings of the string quartets?

Also, listening to Ausklang right now.

I am curious to learn more about his compositional process actually........................

Arditti
Calder(?)
JACK


Yes, I'd also like to know...

I do like what Arditti do, the timbres, the silences, the recording perspective, the way they build and release tension.

Heard the others? I was tempted to get all three, but,... oy,... yea,... no.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on November 20, 2017, 04:32:33 PM
Arditti
Calder(?)
JACK


Yes, I'd also like to know...

Heard the others? I was tempted to get all three, but,... oy,... yea,... no.

I recently compared Arditti with JACK, and although I prefer Arditti I did think the recording quality of JACK was just as good but the interpretation a little less emotionally intense. Softer dynamics were much softer than Arditti though, which I really liked.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on November 21, 2017, 06:42:41 AM
I recently compared Arditti with JACK, and although I prefer Arditti I did think the recording quality of JACK was just as good but the interpretation a little less emotionally intense. Softer dynamics were much softer than Arditti though, which I really liked.

lol, that doesn't help my wallet!!!! I need a clear cut victor to save $$$!!!


Lachenmann "emotionally intense"????
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Mandryka on November 21, 2017, 08:38:07 AM
Arditti
Calder(?)
JACK


Yes, I'd also like to know...

Heard the others? I was tempted to get all three, but,... oy,... yea,... no.

Yes, though I should let you know that I'm mostly interested in the second.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on November 21, 2017, 02:09:12 PM
lol, that doesn't help my wallet!!!! I need a clear cut victor to save $$$!!!


Lachenmann "emotionally intense"????

Yes I think Arditti Quartet play with a lot of emotion
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: snyprrr on November 26, 2017, 08:35:31 AM
I'd  be very interested to hear comments on the Diotima Quartet's recording of the 2nd, which I'm thinking of buying,

whoops, forgot to tell you this has been my go-to recording for quite some time. Better than Arditti/Montaigne (don't know about Kairos), and the Nono is the best I've heard. MUST HAVE!!!!
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Mandryka on November 27, 2017, 10:26:36 AM
whoops, forgot to tell you this has been my go-to recording for quite some time. Better than Arditti/Montaigne (don't know about Kairos), and the Nono is the best I've heard. MUST HAVE!!!!

 I have it now, I'm not ready  to say how I feel about it, and I've not had the chance to hear the Nono, but thanks for making me aware that Arditti have  recorded the second quartet twice. It's a very impressive bit of music (the Lachenmann)

I also have a concert recording of Diotima playing the third quartet, problematic sound (it cuts out) so I find it a bit painful to listen to - I hope they'll release it though.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Mandryka on November 27, 2017, 10:31:26 AM
Yes I think Arditti Quartet play with a lot of emotion

Yes, or I'd put it a bit differentlyly - what they do is sensual rather than conceptual. (More so than eg Diotima, and this ,any be a reason why I will end up prefering Arditti (Kairos)
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on January 09, 2018, 08:37:02 AM
Fresh from New Year's Day, here's the world premiere of Marche fatale (2017, version for large orchestra), which anyone who loves Lachenmann needs to hear. I will be doing some research, trying to ascertain exactly what is going on here, but in the meantime...

http://www.youtube.com/v/K6QWUHbNHAw

--Bruce
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Joaquimhock on January 09, 2018, 11:51:52 AM
His new refreshing style... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aco12S3wjig
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: amw on January 09, 2018, 06:57:23 PM
Fresh from New Year's Day, here's the world premiere of March fatale (2017, version for large orchestra), which anyone who loves Lachenmann needs to hear. I will be doing some research, trying to ascertain exactly what is going on here, but in the meantime...

http://www.youtube.com/v/K6QWUHbNHAw

--Bruce
Welllllll. That's 7 minutes of my life I'm never getting back.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brian on January 09, 2018, 07:17:10 PM
Welllllll. That's 7 minutes of my life I'm never getting back.
;D ;D ;D ;D

I kept waiting for the plot twist. There...wasn't one. It wasn't painful, but it was peculiar.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Mandryka on January 09, 2018, 10:09:58 PM

http://www.youtube.com/v/K6QWUHbNHAw



Judas!
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Mandryka on January 09, 2018, 11:24:03 PM
;D ;D ;D ;D

I kept waiting for the plot twist. There...wasn't one.

Yes there is, at 4,34.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Mandryka on January 10, 2018, 11:52:48 AM
I listened to it again. It is listenable, nicely made and diverting. The problem is that moment at 4,34.
 It's so shocking at that point that after it it's hard to see see the piece as just a diversion, it's as if the 4,34 incident seeks to give it a "meaning" and not just be a nice bit of music to listen to.  A similar thing happens in Finnissy's last quartet, where this time the semantically loaded event is bird song.

It's tempting to say that these pieces -- both the Lachenmann and the Finnissy -- are pretentious, and vacuous. But these guys are serious musicians so I don't want to dismiss them, I'd rather believe that the fault is my own lack of imagination.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: amw on January 12, 2018, 03:00:27 AM
But these guys are serious musicians so I don't want to dismiss them, I'd rather believe that the fault is my own lack of imagination.

I personally think it's utter garbage. Serious musicians do write utter garbage sometimes, for profit or political motives or simply having a deadline and no inspiration (anyone listened to Der glorreiche Augenblick lately??)

Specifically, it's the kind of garbage a very self-important and clever third-year conservatoire student would come up with accompanied by an explanatory note about how the music represents the decadence of late stage capitalism, or the omnipresent kitschification of the classical canon, or whatever, but who has no actual ideas for what should be the alternative to capitalism or the classical canon, and to some extent still wants to participate in those things, just in a postmodern and ironic sort of way. It's garbage because it's essentially parasitic, an empty critique that offers nothing. It's the same as all those guys like Sørensen and Pesson whose music is just commentaries on the state and history of classical music, filled with lots of special effects but which with enough exposure starts to come across as though what they really want to write is string quartets and symphonies in F major in 4/4 time with cadences, but they also don't want to lose the respect and cachet that comes from associating with the Darmstadt Ferienkürse and the Donaueschinger Musiktage and the Huddersfield Contemporary Music Festival and the Gaudeamus Muziekweek. Like, if you genuinely believe music history is over and just want to write whatever classical canon inspired stuff or Brahms collages or Sousa marches, at least do the intellectually honest thing (like Valentin Silvestrov, who just writes pastiches now, some of which are actually quite charming) and stop trying to suck Paul Griffiths' dick. End of rant.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: blablawsky on January 13, 2018, 05:04:44 AM
I personally think it's utter garbage. Serious musicians do write utter garbage sometimes, for profit or political motives or simply having a deadline and no inspiration (anyone listened to Der glorreiche Augenblick lately??)

Specifically, it's the kind of garbage a very self-important and clever third-year conservatoire student would come up with accompanied by an explanatory note about how the music represents the decadence of late stage capitalism, or the omnipresent kitschification of the classical canon, or whatever, but who has no actual ideas for what should be the alternative to capitalism or the classical canon, and to some extent still wants to participate in those things, just in a postmodern and ironic sort of way. It's garbage because it's essentially parasitic, an empty critique that offers nothing. It's the same as all those guys like Sørensen and Pesson whose music is just commentaries on the state and history of classical music, filled with lots of special effects but which with enough exposure starts to come across as though what they really want to write is string quartets and symphonies in F major in 4/4 time with cadences, but they also don't want to lose the respect and cachet that comes from associating with the Darmstadt Ferienkürse and the Donaueschinger Musiktage and the Huddersfield Contemporary Music Festival and the Gaudeamus Muziekweek. Like, if you genuinely believe music history is over and just want to write whatever classical canon inspired stuff or Brahms collages or Sousa marches, at least do the intellectually honest thing (like Valentin Silvestrov, who just writes pastiches now, some of which are actually quite charming) and stop trying to suck Paul Griffiths' dick. End of rant.
I hope this is not the direction Lachenmann continues in. There's a haunted carnival sort of thing going on in this piece that I wouldn't mind listening to while reading something 'creepy' but I don't expect him to feel genuinely good about this piece. Or I should say, I'm not attracted to this piece.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 13, 2018, 04:24:26 PM
Damn what a shame I missed out on that video. It seems to have been promptly taken down. I want to find out what this new style sounds like...........
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Cato on January 13, 2018, 05:23:38 PM
Damn what a shame I missed out on that video. It seems to have been promptly taken down. I want to find out what this new style sounds like...........

Here is another version:

https://www.youtube.com/v/u-gI9u-bjHo
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 13, 2018, 06:59:05 PM
Thanks I 'look forward' to checking this out properly soon...............................
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: blablawsky on January 14, 2018, 10:28:07 AM
Based on the description of the video of 'Marche Fatale' it seems like the work was composed as a sort of anniversary gift to Stuttgart State Orchestra. So I don't expect this piece to represent a new 'direction' for him. Hopefully he will return to composing more soon (a new string quartet would be great)!
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Mandryka on January 14, 2018, 10:36:15 AM
So I don't expect this piece to represent a new 'direction' for him.

It certainly would be extraordinary if it did.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Joaquimhock on January 14, 2018, 10:54:04 AM
Based on the description of the video of 'Marche Fatale' it seems like the work was composed as a sort of anniversary gift to Stuttgart State Orchestra. So I don't expect this piece to represent a new 'direction' for him. Hopefully he will return to composing more soon (a new string quartet would be great)!

His long-awaited new work for 8 horns and orchestra is planned for June it seems: https://www.br-so.com/peter-eotvos-08-06-2018/k8002/
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Mandryka on January 14, 2018, 11:13:40 AM
His long-awaited new work for 8 horns and orchestra is planned for June it seems: https://www.br-so.com/peter-eotvos-08-06-2018/k8002/

OMG as soon as I read that all that I could think of was Richard Strauss's Concertstück for four horns and orchestra.

Kill me now.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Joaquimhock on January 14, 2018, 12:05:38 PM
OMG as soon as I read that all that I could think of was Richard Strauss's Concertstück for four horns and orchestra.

Kill me now.

The last part of Grisey's Les espaces acoustiques is also written for four hors and orchestra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BQQQ2bu3GM

PS The Koncertstücke for 4 hors is by Schumann if I remember well... is there something like that by Strauss...?
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Mandryka on January 14, 2018, 02:16:06 PM
The last part of Grisey's Les espaces acoustiques is also written for four hors and orchestra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BQQQ2bu3GM

PS The Koncertstücke for 4 hors is by Schumann if I remember well... is there something like that by Strauss...?

Schumann, that's right, I think I was confusing it with Strauss because I listened to the moonlight music from Capriccio a few weeks ago, which has a  prominent horn part. I'd completely forgotten the Grisey!
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 14, 2018, 05:31:41 PM
Wtf am I listening to.

Is this like some really really early work he decided to orchestrate or something like that for a bit of fun? Not quite sure where this is coming from in terms of his output leading here. A bit of fluff, some fun fluff for the first minute until it feels very tedious, but there is so so much of this in existence already mightn't it be nice to listen to Lachenmann (if that is what we want to hear) instead of this?
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on January 14, 2018, 06:03:44 PM
The march was originally for piano, from 2016, and I haven't been able to find out much about why he wrote it. Nor have I been able to find out about the orchestrated version! (Some friends on Facebook may be of help.)

I suspect it's a one-off -- a stunt he may have thought would amuse the orchestra. It does show off his formidable orchestration talents, which some people listening to his other works might not fully appreciate. And for sure, when I want to listen to Lachenmann, this is not the piece I would turn to!

--Bruce

Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 14, 2018, 06:10:55 PM
The march was originally for piano, from 2016, and I haven't been able to find out much about why he wrote it. Nor have I been able to find out about the orchestrated version! (Some friends on Facebook may be of help.)

I suspect it's a one-off -- a stunt he may have thought would amuse the orchestra. It does show off his formidable orchestration talents, which some people listening to his other works might not fully appreciate. And for sure, when I want to listen to Lachenmann, this is not the piece I would turn to!

--Bruce



I think pretty much any other work he wrote shows his formidable orchestration talents anyway......... even the solo stuff. Not many composers really go to such great lengths to explore the possibilities of sound production on acoustic instruments the way Lachenmann does. Not entirely sure if this piece is really showing that as much.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Brewski on January 14, 2018, 06:17:38 PM
I think pretty much any other work he wrote shows his formidable orchestration talents anyway......... even the solo stuff. Not many composers really go to such great lengths to explore the possibilities of sound production on acoustic instruments the way Lachenmann does. Not entirely sure if this piece is really showing that as much.

Yes, true (about his other work). This may be nothing more than an elaborate joke, but I'm genuinely curious to know how this piece came about. If I find out anything I'll post something here.

--Bruce
Title: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 18, 2018, 01:24:43 PM
 from Van Magazine

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180118/69a1f22f318e009ef7eacf68a2defbe4.jpg)
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: blablawsky on January 19, 2018, 12:00:48 AM
Are there other composers or non-classical musicians similar to Lachenmann, other than the ones previously mentioned (Salvatore Sciarrino, Mark Andre, Pierluigi Billone)? Preferably someone with more violent and/or sordid inclinations (Lachenmann's works feel very pretty to me), and more interest in time? I'm aware of noise musicians like Grunt, Operation Cleansweep, etc. but they are usually not as elaborate with their works as I'd like. I like Gran Torso and Reigen Seliger Geister most.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 19, 2018, 12:47:33 AM
Are there other composers or non-classical musicians similar to Lachenmann, other than the ones previously mentioned (Salvatore Sciarrino, Mark Andre, Pierluigi Billone)? Preferably someone with more violent and/or sordid inclinations (Lachenmann's works feel very pretty to me), and more interest in time? I'm aware of noise musicians like Grunt, Operation Cleansweep, etc. but they are usually not as elaborate with their works as I'd like. I like Gran Torso and Reigen Seliger Geister most.

Gee I dunno. Lachenmann really has an interest in sounds which he makes extremely beautiful and pretty, as you say, and I think that may come across because of his skill in really REALLY understanding the acoustics of each instrument he works with and how a very wide variety of sounds work together. When I think 'violent' inclinations I imagine that might mean you are interested in music which may use many extended techniques, but in such a way where the sounds are less clear? More forced? Something like that anyway? With interest in time are you talking about someone who uses rhythm and meter in a more structural way like Birtwistle, Carter etc?

If Alien was around more often I imagine he might be able to help you out more.

Have you explored much electroacoustic stuff?
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: pjme on January 19, 2018, 03:06:21 AM
I wasn't able to access Jessop's link to VAN - I copied the text.

From https://van-us.atavist.com/marche-fatale:

Online, the reaction to Lachenmann’s piece can be summed up briefly: “What?!?” He is, particularly to U.S.-based avant-garde composers struggling against the tide of bland post-minimalism, something of an icon: hence the red t-shirts of Lachenmann as Che Guevara, and the Helmut Hard Core Total Devotion Group on Facebook. It’s not necessarily that his fans sensed betrayal; more that they felt they needed to know the reason behind the “Marche fatale”—because with Lachenmann there is always a reason. But this time, there was no guessing what that might be.
I asked Lachenmann how people had reacted to “Marche fatale” after the premiere:
I don’t know if that’s really important. Besides, who is “people”? My kids, my accountant, my doctor, the person in the audience sitting next to me? Of course I experience a lot of pleasantries that vary in honesty….But I’m glad that the orchestra enjoyed playing it and did so with so much verve. Who says to a composer that the music disappointed, confused, or repelled him?
“Marche fatale” is shocking in the opposite way. “It’s an imprudent, daring escapade, it might confuse my listeners more than my earlier pieces—which themselves caused scandals at their premieres before being accepted,” Lachenmann wrote in his program note to “Marche fatale.” The musical language is unfamiliar in Lachenmann’s oeuvre, but the sensation of being completely unmoored is not.
Lachenmann’s work has always been deeply concerned with the implications of music history. While his “Accanto” for clarinet, orchestra and tape refers to Mozart’s Clarinet Concerto with “veneration and anguished love,” he situates the “Marche fatale” within a kind of alternative Canon of the Banal: Mozart’s “A Musical Joke,” Beethoven’s Bagatelles Op. 119, Kagel’s “10 Märsche um den Sieg zu verfehlen,” Ligeti’s “Hungarian Rock,” and Stravinsky’s “Circus Polka,” which transfigures a Schubert military march for piano four hands. But Lachenmann is obsessed with history—it would never occur to him to do a piece, even a bitterly satirical one like the “Marche fatale,” badly. When I asked him if his tonal writing had gotten rusty with years of molecular-level focus on instrument timbre, he answered:

You aren’t familiar with my “Sakura Variations” in C Minor or my “Variations on a Schubert Waltz” in C-sharp Minor. A composer who doesn’t search for his own path through historical composition, music theory, and instrumentation practice is a dilettante. He should just give up.

As he points out, the “Marche fatale” is more of a typical Lachenmann work than it might seem at first listen in this sense too. The “Schubert Variations” use more atonal—in this context, more familiar—sonorities, but share an interest in deconstructing gesture with the “Marche fatale.” For example, the “Schubert Variations” take an accented, accompanying right-hand motive and exaggerate them, in Variation II and later, into something more decisive, martial and therefore perverse. In “Marche fatale,” the absurdity and “banality” of marching music comes into focus as well. “Is a march, with its forcing of the collective into a martial or celebratory mood, a priori ridiculous?” asks Lachenmann. “Is it even ‘music?’ Can one march and listen at the same time?” Whether his pieces are gorgeously noisy or gratingly tonal, Lachenmann wants to ask serious questions with them.
I laughed at moments in “Marche fatale,” and funny art can doubtlessly pose deep questions about the human condition. But in the work, Lachenmann makes a distinction between humor and what he calls Heiterkeit—cheerfulness or, better, liveliness. Humor and liveliness have little to do with one another, he writes. The distinction lies in a kind of latent danger that the German word connotes: “At some point I decided to take ‘ridiculousness’ as the revealing characteristic of our civilization, as it sits at the edge of the abyss, seriously—perhaps even with bitter seriousness. The unstoppable journey to the black hole, its crippling evil: ‘Things are bound to get lively,’” Lachenmann writes.
He added in his email to me:
Daily life is full of pettiness. Humor, God knows, can help with that—maybe it’s even essential. In music, and while composing, I care as little about [humor] as a cook would care about it while he’s making his food or a surgeon while he’s operating on a patient. Which doesn’t mean that I didn’t have to laugh sometimes—not just in rehearsal—at the mischief I made. But I can’t help someone who can’t distinguish between humor and liveliness in any case. Politicians like to say that “the situation is serious, but not hopeless.” Not I—a composer should refrain from speaking—but my “Marche” says: “The situation is hopeless, but not serious.”

This is the decisive characteristic that makes the “Marche fatale” a typical Lachenmann piece below the sonic surface. Maybe even an archetypical piece. Listen to it again: Doesn’t it start to sound less funny and more apocalyptic? Instead of a march up the mountain, a march down to hell? “How could this happen?” Lachenmann asks in his program note, with “this” meaning the piece itself. It could happen because even a tonal march can be suffused with the irreducible elements of Lachenmann’s style: knowledge, care, irony, bitterness, and fear for the future.

Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 19, 2018, 03:14:27 AM
Oh yeah I just posted the meme because it was funny that is all. But thanks for the following post anyway!!!!
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: blablawsky on January 19, 2018, 04:56:54 AM
Gee I dunno. Lachenmann really has an interest in sounds which he makes extremely beautiful and pretty, as you say, and I think that may come across because of his skill in really REALLY understanding the acoustics of each instrument he works with and how a very wide variety of sounds work together. When I think 'violent' inclinations I imagine that might mean you are interested in music which may use many extended techniques, but in such a way where the sounds are less clear? More forced? Something like that anyway? With interest in time are you talking about someone who uses rhythm and meter in a more structural way like Birtwistle, Carter etc?

If Alien was around more often I imagine he might be able to help you out more.

Have you explored much electroacoustic stuff?
By violent inclinations, I mean someone who is attracted to sounds that evoke violence when you listen to them. My focus is on what I hear, and not the attitudes of the performers. In my view, the term 'violence' is different from 'aggression' in that violence has macabre connotations, and does not necessarily exclude subdued aspects, while aggression is mainly physical.

Lachenmann's works can be aggressive, but I don't feel that they are twisted. They are appealing in a traditional way. As much as I enjoy them, I am also interested in hearing something that's as precise in expression as Lachenmann's works, but violent (for example, Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire and String Trio can be violent) and/or sordid (like Bussotti's RARA for cello). Here I don't mean sordid in a derogatory way.

I had Carter in mind for time. I would've loved to hear Carter use extended techniques as Lachenmann does. I guess Ferneyhough could somewhat fit the bill but he does his own thing.

What electroacoustic works should I listen to?

Also, in response to pjme's post regarding Marche fatale, all the extramusical narration is interesting, but what I actually hear from the work is sadly just not that appealing. Only what I hear is what matters to me as a listener. A lot of 'academic' composers get too focused on such extramusical embellishment of their compositions, but all of my favorite works require only what can be heard, and myself. I didn't expect Lachenmann to do this, since he is usually so focused on what is audible. I still look forward to his upcoming composition.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: pjme on January 19, 2018, 12:22:41 PM
 :) Could not resist this....

https://www.youtube.com/v/aco12S3wjig

P.

Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Mandryka on January 19, 2018, 12:44:32 PM
By violent inclinations, I mean someone who is attracted to sounds that evoke violence when you listen to them. My focus is on what I hear, and not the attitudes of the performers. In my view, the term 'violence' is different from 'aggression' in that violence has macabre connotations, and does not necessarily exclude subdued aspects, while aggression is mainly physical.

Lachenmann's works can be aggressive, but I don't feel that they are twisted. They are appealing in a traditional way. As much as I enjoy them, I am also interested in hearing something that's as precise in expression as Lachenmann's works, but violent (for example, Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire and String Trio can be violent) and/or sordid (like Bussotti's RARA for cello). Here I don't mean sordid in a derogatory way.

I had Carter in mind for time. I would've loved to hear Carter use extended techniques as Lachenmann does. I guess Ferneyhough could somewhat fit the bill but he does his own thing.

What electroacoustic works should I listen to?

Also, in response to pjme's post regarding Marche fatale, all the extramusical narration is interesting, but what I actually hear from the work is sadly just not that appealing. Only what I hear is what matters to me as a listener. A lot of 'academic' composers get too focused on such extramusical embellishment of their compositions, but all of my favorite works require only what can be heard, and myself. I didn't expect Lachenmann to do this, since he is usually so focused on what is audible. I still look forward to his upcoming composition.

Have you explored Hespos? Or early Nono, like recorda cosa ti hanno fatto in auschwitz?
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 19, 2018, 02:57:00 PM
By violent inclinations, I mean someone who is attracted to sounds that evoke violence when you listen to them. My focus is on what I hear, and not the attitudes of the performers. In my view, the term 'violence' is different from 'aggression' in that violence has macabre connotations, and does not necessarily exclude subdued aspects, while aggression is mainly physical.

Lachenmann's works can be aggressive, but I don't feel that they are twisted. They are appealing in a traditional way. As much as I enjoy them, I am also interested in hearing something that's as precise in expression as Lachenmann's works, but violent (for example, Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire and String Trio can be violent) and/or sordid (like Bussotti's RARA for cello). Here I don't mean sordid in a derogatory way.

I had Carter in mind for time. I would've loved to hear Carter use extended techniques as Lachenmann does. I guess Ferneyhough could somewhat fit the bill but he does his own thing.

What electroacoustic works should I listen to?

Also, in response to pjme's post regarding Marche fatale, all the extramusical narration is interesting, but what I actually hear from the work is sadly just not that appealing. Only what I hear is what matters to me as a listener. A lot of 'academic' composers get too focused on such extramusical embellishment of their compositions, but all of my favorite works require only what can be heard, and myself. I didn't expect Lachenmann to do this, since he is usually so focused on what is audible. I still look forward to his upcoming composition.

Defying expectations was probably what is most appealing about March Fatale anyway.

One of my favourite electroacoustic works is 'Red Bird' by Trevor Wishart, which, I have to say, does have its own extramusical discussion as well. But do give it a listen if you haven't already.

https://www.youtube.com/v/lekLl7o8yrc
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: blablawsky on January 26, 2018, 08:02:54 AM
Defying expectations was probably what is most appealing about March Fatale anyway.

One of my favourite electroacoustic works is 'Red Bird' by Trevor Wishart, which, I have to say, does have its own extramusical discussion as well. But do give it a listen if you haven't already.

https://www.youtube.com/v/lekLl7o8yrc
This is very cool. Thanks!

Mandryka, I find early Nono very appealing. Hespos is cool as well. Thanks for introducing me to him.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Mandryka on March 02, 2018, 03:49:01 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpotlVOUIAA36zU.jpg)

A wonderfully performed, amazingly well recorded, live Grido from Arditti here.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Joaquimhock on June 07, 2018, 08:38:55 PM
Lachenmann's latest work "My Melodies" for 8 horns and orchestra wioll be live treamed this evening (8 PM CET)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UQSMBE7ybk

I hope someone will save it.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Joaquimhock on June 08, 2018, 09:42:59 PM
The concert is here.

It was fun ;-) My melodies is Lachenmann at his best I think. Something as great as Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied probably...

He sais that there is no "melodies" of course but that the title has to be understood like "my way".

https://www.br-klassik.de/concert/ausstrahlung-1382388.html
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: some guy on June 13, 2018, 06:52:10 AM
Lovely piece, that. My Melodies.

Thanks for the link!!

He's been so quiet lately. Good to know that he's back to work, again. (We never give artists breaks, do we? Finish one thing? Well, do another then. And another. Don't stop until you die. And, speaking of which, no dying, either.)


Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: Mandryka on June 13, 2018, 07:02:07 AM
Lovely piece, that. My Melodies.



Yes I agree with you.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: CRCulver on June 13, 2018, 08:42:26 AM
He's been so quiet lately.

There was that considerable hiatus after Concertini. When I heard that piece, I felt he was drawing too close to the work of the younger composers inspired by him. I wondered if the slowing down of his output was due to a need to search for some direction where, he felt, he was still purely his own voice in what was now a more crowded landscape.
Title: Re: The Lachenmann Lacuna
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on June 13, 2018, 03:47:02 PM
I listened to My Melodies recently. Lovely piece that's for sure, with all the lush and hushed orchestral sounds mixed with bursts of blazing orchestral (and horn) colour throughout. I've been reading a series of articles about him and by him in the contemporary music review from a while back, and it's fascinating to read about his very 'historical' approach to composition; he has a real sense of the placement of his music in time, for what audience and the relationship his music has with other cultures and time periods.