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The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: Lethevich on September 28, 2008, 06:11:41 AM

Title: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on September 28, 2008, 06:11:41 AM
The index seems to include two threads on Ferenc, but they both have specific subjects, so here is a general one. I'll begin with this -

Wikipedia lists an additional piano concerto to his numbered two: Piano Concerto in E flat, op. posth., S. 125a. Has anyone heard this, and does it compare well to the other two?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Dundonnell on September 30, 2008, 04:24:12 AM
I think that it is kind of horrible to see a thread with zero replies on this forum :(  And I was absolutely astounded that no-one had responded to a thread about one of the most famous composers and influential musical figures of the 19th century!

Admittedly, when I went back to read the comments on the old threads-which appeared to deal with specific aspects of Liszt's work I did find that there had been a much wider ranging discussion but that was a full year ago now. Surely there are members who are new since then(like me :)) or others who could say something about the old boy ;D

Anyway, it is certainly true that his star seems to have faded a good deal-certainly with concert promoters-but Chandos are releasing a complete set of the symphonic poems with the BBC Philharmonic under Gianandrea Noseda and that combination did perform the Faust Symphony at the 2005 Proms.

Personally, I have long had a soft spot for (most of) the symphonic poems. I first heard 'Les Preludes' on an ancient 78 belonging to my father and loved the great swaggering theme in the middle of the piece. Beecham used to conduct 'Orpheus' a lot but I prefer 'Mazeppa',
'Tasso' and 'Hunnenschlacht'(despite its rather preposterous bombast!). As someone said in the thread a year ago, when one compares these works with the output of most of Liszt's contemporaries they sound more like orchestral masterpieces :)

I have also long admired the Faust Symphony and, in particular, the wonderfully uplifting choral ending to the work(which comes over magnificently in the Bernstein recording!).

Regarding choral works-members did mention 'Christus' but I would like to put a word in for the big Oratorio 'The Legend of Saint Elizabeth' and the splendid Hungarian Coronation March-both of which I have in good Hungaraton recordings.

Sorry, but I don't know the Piano Concerto in E flat, op.posth. although I do have the other works for piano and orchestra(Totentanz, 'De Profundis', 'Malediction' and the Fantasy on Hungarian Folk Tunes).

Yes, Humphrey Searle was a tremendous admirer of Liszt and wrote a good deal about his work.

I think that Liszt deserves a lot more from the relative obscurity into which he seems to be falling.  Mendelssohn, Schumann and Liszt were all born within 2 years of each other(1809-11). Mendelssohn and Schumann were great composers but I often think that Liszt sounds-by far-the most 'modern' of the three. (Maybe that will elicit some comment!)

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on September 30, 2008, 05:29:16 PM
Personally, I have long had a soft spot for (most of) the symphonic poems. I first heard 'Les Preludes' on an ancient 78 belonging to my father and loved the great swaggering theme in the middle of the piece. Beecham used to conduct 'Orpheus' a lot but I prefer 'Mazeppa',
'Tasso' and 'Hunnenschlacht'(despite its rather preposterous bombast!). As someone said in the thread a year ago, when one compares these works with the output of most of Liszt's contemporaries they sound more like orchestral masterpieces :)

I have also long admired the Faust Symphony and, in particular, the wonderfully uplifting choral ending to the work(which comes over magnificently in the Bernstein recording!).

Mazeppa is a favourite of mine too, along with Orpheus and Héroïde Funèbre (which is fun if listened as a work in the tradition of Berlioz). I especially love the last movement of the Dante symphony - it is perhaps my favourite moment of choral music from a concert work.

As someone said in the thread a year ago, when one compares these works with the output of most of Liszt's contemporaries they sound more like orchestral masterpieces

Indeedie, I've gone through works by Rubinstein, Herz, etc, and Liszt is a country mile ahead of them in ambition and inspiration.

Regarding choral works-members did mention 'Christus' but I would like to put a word in for the big Oratorio 'The Legend of Saint Elizabeth' and the splendid Hungarian Coronation March-both of which I have in good Hungaraton recordings.

I hadn't heard of that oratorio before - and I thought liking Christus gave me kudos for obscurity ;D

I think that Liszt deserves a lot more from the relative obscurity into which he seems to be falling.  Mendelssohn, Schumann and Liszt were all born within 2 years of each other(1809-11). Mendelssohn and Schumann were great composers but I often think that Liszt sounds-by far-the most 'modern' of the three. (Maybe that will elicit some comment!)

Mendelssohn and Schumann are rather "comfy" in comparison, but Liszt's current lack of popularity next to a figure such as Mendelssohn (who I consider equally interesting but no greater) could be in part due to Felix's mastery of sonata form, and willingness to stick to it while including very strong melodic themes. By that measure he could be considered worthy of being placed in the hall of great symphonists which is a standard that Liszt can't stand up to, in his works covering a large amount of forms (he was inconsistent, but so was Mendelssohn, so this can't be too much of a factor). His tone poems can also be undermined from a traditionalist perspective by citing early Sibelius's more taut form, but this isn't what Liszt was aiming for, despite being able to pull it off (as in his piano concertos).

The current taste for "cycles" could also be problematic: Schumann has his collections of character pieces, his chamber music and lieder, Mendelssohn has his quartets and symphonies, Liszt's output is formally and conceptually less cohesive. If he produced a large sonata cycle, I suspect that modern audiences would be listening to him more often...
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Wanderer on September 30, 2008, 11:41:45 PM
I've noticed, too, there's not much (expressed at any rate) love here for Liszt, one of the most luminous visionaries the world of music has ever seen.

I have also long admired the Faust Symphony and, in particular, the wonderfully uplifting choral ending to the work(which comes over magnificently in the Bernstein recording!).

A most beloved work and an excellent recording indeed. The "Dante" Symphony is also deeply impressive, especially the final Magnificat.

I would like to put a word in for the big Oratorio 'The Legend of Saint Elizabeth' and the splendid Hungarian Coronation March-both of which I have in good Hungaraton recordings.

I've still to investigate "The Legend of Saint Elizabeth", which is on the wish list for quite some time.  >:(

Regarding the Piano Concerto in E flat, op.posth. I believe I have a version of it hidden somewhere; unearthing it would require some digging. I'm sure to report back upon re-discovery, Lethe! As far as I remember, though, it's not anything significant or impressive (quite short, too).
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 01, 2008, 03:35:29 AM
The Dante Symphony :) Yes, I should have mentioned that work too :) I have just listened again to the closing Magnificat-it is just so gorgeously, gloriously beautiful! This is the epitome of Romantic music of the very best kind!

The version of the Dante Symphony I have is the Hungaraton with Gyorgy Lehel conducting the Budapest Symphony Orchestra. I was fortunate enough to visit Budapest a number of times and picked up there these Hungaraton recordings, including 'The Legend of Saint Elizabeth' and the Hungarian Coronation Mass. Sinopoli and Barenboim have both, I know, recorded highly praised versions of the Dante Symphony.

In addition to the Bernstein Faust Symphony I also have Barenboim's version with the Berlin Philharmonic and Placido Domingo and the old Beecham version. Along with the last movement of Mahler's 2nd I have always thought of the closing pages of the Faust Symphony as the most moving pieces of music ever composed :)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 01, 2008, 03:56:26 AM
The final chorus of Bernstein's famous live performance of the Faust Symphony from 1976 is on YouTube-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U_g0UnWjJU

The sound and picture quality are not great(the DVD is commercially available) but it is a record of a memorable performance!
What a great conductor Bernstein was :) Yes...a showman but what utterly genuine passion and total committment to the music!!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on October 01, 2008, 10:13:31 AM
Along with the last movement of Mahler's 2nd I have always thought of the closing pages of the Faust Symphony as the most moving pieces of music ever composed :)

That's quite a claim, Colin... I'll have to check that later in the week...  ;)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Dundonnell on October 01, 2008, 10:35:29 AM

Bernstein conducting the last four minutes of Mahler No.2 with the London Philharmonic Orchestra-


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rECVyN5D60I

This to me is THE single most glorious passage in ALL music! I want it played at my funeral(hopefully long in the future :).
I cannot listen to this without tears :)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Catison on October 22, 2008, 12:02:30 PM
Today is somebody's birthday!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on January 01, 2009, 08:53:08 PM
Wikipedia lists an additional piano concerto to his numbered two: Piano Concerto in E flat, op. posth., S. 125a. Has anyone heard this, and does it compare well to the other two?

Super Win!

Not only can it be heard - it's free (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,42.msg259500.html#msg259500).
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on January 02, 2009, 08:10:31 AM
Anyway, it is certainly true that his star seems to have faded a good deal-certainly with concert promoters-but Chandos are releasing a complete set of the symphonic poems with the BBC Philharmonic under Gianandrea Noseda and that combination did perform the Faust Symphony at the 2005 Proms.

I've got that Chandos recording of the Faust-Symphonie (the version without the choral ending);  and, as fine a piece as it is, it's the other tone-poem on that disc which captivates me: Von der Wiege bis zum Grabe, S.107

Quote from: Colin
Personally, I have long had a soft spot for (most of) the symphonic poems. I first heard 'Les Preludes' on an ancient 78 belonging to my father and loved the great swaggering theme in the middle of the piece. Beecham used to conduct 'Orpheus' a lot but I prefer 'Mazeppa', 'Tasso' and 'Hunnenschlacht' (despite its rather preposterous bombast!).

I do like Orpheus (and Tasso) a great deal . . . in a curious way, like Stravinsky's, Liszt's Orpheus is a quiet mystery from a composer renowned for grabbing you by the collar.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on January 02, 2009, 08:11:17 AM
Super Win!

Not only can it be heard - it's free (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,42.msg259500.html#msg259500).

:-)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on January 02, 2009, 11:57:40 AM
Super Win!

Not only can it be heard - it's free (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,42.msg259500.html#msg259500).

Don't get too exited, the piece is nothing special.

What we really need is an increased amount of recordings of his late works. It's good that we at least have Leslie Howard but i don't particularly like his playing and i'd prefer a wider range of choice.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on January 02, 2009, 12:02:35 PM
Liszt's Orpheus is a quiet mystery from a composer renowned for grabbing you by the collar.

That reputation is based on a false premise thought. Unlike Stravinsky, Liszt's output is for the largest part quite and contemplative in nature. I think it was Clara Schumann who described him as a "ghost" behind the keyboard, or something to that effect.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on January 02, 2009, 07:34:26 PM
Don't get too exited, the piece is nothing special.

What we really need is an increased amount of recordings of his late works. It's good that we at least have Leslie Howard but i don't particularly like his playing and i'd prefer a wider range of choice.

Indeed, it's not as good as the other two PCs (which many people dislike anyway, but I enjoy), but I'm glad that I got to hear it and judge for myself. I was surprised at how acceptable Howard was - I was partly duped when initially exploring Liszt's non-mainstream piano music that the more exotic the surname, the more "genuine" the performance, but given how neglected Liszt's obscure works are, there hasn't really been a tradition built up that could make any "school" of performers a good choice in it. But I agree that Howard could be improved on from what little I have heard of his Liszt (I can't afford that many at Hyperion prices), and even if not improved upon, an alternate take on some of the works would be valuble. But given Howard's consistent style and great ability coupled with Hyperion's usual recording and documentation standards, the set is an ideal way to present these works en-masse for the first time.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: imperfection on January 02, 2009, 08:07:48 PM
Liszt's piano music is among the most technically challenging ever composed, especially the famous (or rather, infamous) 12 Etudes D'execution Transcend and the notoriously hard opera paraphrases. My favorite among that bunch is definitely the Mozart Réminiscences de Don Juan. It is basically a 16-minute long technical workout that combines the most memorable scenes and catchy tunes from Amadeus' masterpiece. Below that inhuman technical demands, however, lies a very lyrical musical personality that never fails to move me. When played well, this is one of my favorite solo piano pieces, and so far my favorite version is surprisingly Lang Lang's: his is one of the most breathtaking, virtuosic and unique performances I've ever heard. The showmanship this piece demands probably help to "justify" LL's over-the-top expression and heavy-handedness.

You can watch that performance here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8mKzbr33P4&feature=related Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15IonM3w__I&feature=related Part 2

Having said that, LL ranks at the bottom of my "Great pianists" list.  :P
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on August 10, 2009, 01:04:49 PM
The famous Lehmann painting of a young Liszt

(http://www.boesendorfer.com/boesendorfer_en/uploads/web/bildnis_franz.jpg)

Interesting comments everyone. I'm currently on a Liszt 'jag' and greatly enjoying reading and listening about this amazing man  :)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Sean on August 10, 2009, 01:53:21 PM
The first thing that stikes you about Liszt's voice is its frequent and peculiar clattery and rather staccato quality. I don't know how he manages this exactly but there's no other composer quite like it. I can't agree that Liszt is a great composer though- he excelled himself only a few times, such as the Benediction from the Religuese set and the Piano concertos- at opposite ends of the expressive range. The Benediction shows how he succeeds in a rare instance- whereas in so many of his other contemplative pieces instead of profundity there is only ambiguity and harmonic haze.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: DavidW on August 10, 2009, 02:10:11 PM
After not having listened to Liszt for a very long time, Richter performing the Piano Sonata has convinced me that Liszt is a composer of the highest order!! 0:)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: George on August 10, 2009, 02:18:11 PM
After not having listened to Liszt for a very long time, Richter performing the Piano Sonata has convinced me that Liszt is a composer of the highest order!! 0:)

(http://img2.allposters.com/images/CUP/G683-180.jpg)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on October 08, 2009, 02:28:23 PM
So... I've been wondering something about Liszt, but I don't even know how to phrase the question...
maybe this isn't phrased right, but would anyone consider Liszt the most forward-looking/innovative of the Late Romantics?
there's more to that question, too, but I'm not sure I can explain.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on April 06, 2010, 04:21:48 PM
Wow... no reply over half a year?

Being hooked on the Liebestraum No.3 currently, I realize this was written a little bit before Wagner's Tristan und Isolde, and I wonder where he got that sound from. It seemed to be too much of a jump- but when I listen to Liebestraum, it seems like that has to be a strong influence. I don't know of anything before 1850 that has that kind of intensity, and Tristan was written (if i remember right) ~10 years later.

Not to mention Liszt messing with atonality/near atonality more than probably any other composer at the time... maybe... I mean, take the statement "Liszt was the most innovative and influential composer in his time"- is this a good thing to say or not?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: George on April 06, 2010, 04:27:22 PM
Wow... no reply over half a year?



Lisztless. 8)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 06, 2010, 04:35:10 PM
Wow... no reply over half a year?

Being hooked on the Liebestraum No.3 currently, I realize this was written a little bit before Wagner's Tristan und Isolde, and I wonder where he got that sound from. It seemed to be too much of a jump- but when I listen to Liebestraum, it seems like that has to be a strong influence. I don't know of anything before 1850 that has that kind of intensity, and Tristan was written (if i remember right) ~10 years later.

Not to mention Liszt messing with atonality/near atonality more than probably any other composer at the time... maybe... I mean, take the statement "Liszt was the most innovative and influential composer in his time"- is this a good thing to say or not?

Innovative? Maybe. Influential? No. It took a genius (Wagner) to elevate the harmonic ideas of Liszt to such heights that no one was able to escape, willing or not.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on April 06, 2010, 05:45:02 PM
Innovative? Maybe. Influential? No. It took a genius (Wagner) to elevate the harmonic ideas of Liszt to such heights that no one was able to escape, willing or not.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

What I mean by influential, though, is that in the little of Liszt that I've listened to, I hear a little Wagner here, a little Schoenberg there, a little Debussy there... I just can't help but wonder if this is coincidence or if these composers directly drew inspiration from his music.

Of course, there also seems to be a very strong influence of Schumann, too, though I guess that's beside the point.

To me, for example, this just sounds like the perfect bridge between Schumann and Debussy...
(written in 1883)
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/9HI80RzyDyQ&feature=related



I wonder what Liszt I should listen to next...
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on April 06, 2010, 06:37:20 PM
Just now stumbled upon this page, and it happens to pretty much say what I just said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_works_of_Franz_Liszt

Here's another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/zkBI9ShQ1mY&feature=related

I just thought after listening to this one (written in 1881) that it literally took 30 years for anyone to even expand on this harmonic language- Schoenberg doing so around 1911. The weird thing is, right after I had thought, I read more from that page and it says "30 years" as well.

Then I thought... Bartok, too, maybe? And it mentions Bartok.
Wagner, Schoenberg, Bartok, Debussy... who else?  :D
I guess Liszt was just a madman spouting off ideas in every direction, and that's how so many composers during and right after his time developed their own very unique sounds- developing on his crazy ideas.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 06, 2010, 06:43:24 PM
I see what you are saying, and yes, those composers were obviously inspired by Liszt. Bartok even referred to him as the first modern pianist. The problem is that the late works of Liszt were probably inspired by Wagner in the first place. Its hard to pinpoint who influenced whom. Both composers borrowed and exchanged ideas constantly. All we can say for sure is that the harmonic ideas of Liszt were more advanced then those of Wagner (a close comparison of their work in a chronological order will demonstrate this), but it was Wagner who was the first to elevate those harmonic ideas to the level of genius, and we can only imagine the effect this had on Liszt. I think what probably happened is that Wagner did something Liszt always aspired to, but was never able to achieve. So at one point he decided to relinquish all pretense at creating an artistic style based on advanced harmony which could still produce feeling (the way Wagner did) and simply went on an inward journey exploring as many harmonic possibilities as he could envision, in his own bitter lonesomeness. Essentially he abandoned all pretense at being a Romantic and plunged head on into modernism.

I wonder what Liszt I should listen to next...

Most of his late works are great, but finding a good recording of them is a challenge.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on April 06, 2010, 06:50:45 PM
That does make it hard, when their lives and creative work practically overlaps. Well, I'm sure in some book out there, there might be more info on who influenced who, etc.

Know any good recordings, specifically?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 06, 2010, 06:53:48 PM
Know any good recordings, specifically?

Sadly, i do not. I have all the Leslie Howard recordings of his late music, which are adequate, but not great. Every now and then i look for something else but nobody really seems interested in this repertory (just a few scattered pieces here and there by various performers, which i can't be arsed to collect without braking my bank account), which is a shame.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on April 06, 2010, 07:35:31 PM
That sucks.  :'(

Well, interestingly, I found a few more things:

On this page, in the section for Liszt, you can read for free, online, correspondences between Wagner and Liszt, and letters written by Liszt. I wonder how they talk about music ideas and such...
http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/l


Also, this here is CRAZY. I bet most people, if blindfolded, would say that this piece was written by Debussy. But, no, it was written by Liszt. As one comment says, "Debussy must've obsessed over pieces like this and then just rolled with whatever he decided to write".

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/ADQKl6adDgU

I wonder if Scriabin was influenced by Liszt... what about Stravinsky (in terms of polytonality, etc.)? (though Stravinsky seems unlikely)

But, the thing is, why didn't I know about this stuff before?  ???

Okay, I gotta get to sleep now... :D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Est.1965 on April 07, 2010, 12:05:06 AM
This is a great 1884 image.  Guess whose picture is looking down at proceedings in Liszts Music Room.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Dax on April 07, 2010, 12:25:29 AM
Innovative? Maybe. Influential? No. It took a genius (Wagner) to elevate the harmonic ideas of Liszt to such heights that no one was able to escape, willing or not.

There is much that is wrong-headed and misinformative here. A bald statement of untruth backed up by no example or explanation.

Liszt's innovations (not only harmonic) are apparent in the 1830s: there are countless examples - I'll suggest Malediction as a starter since I've just come across it on youtube with a score to follow as you listen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQxo8WImLBk

There is of course much more that is remarkable before his late music and it's not difficult to find out what or why by a bit of elementary googling. "Innovations Liszt" will immediately turn up stuff like this.

Quote
Franz Liszt
biographical comments excerpted from Richard DiSilvio's site at http://www.d-vista.com/OTHER/franzliszt2.html
"Franz Liszt has emerged as one of the most awe-inspiring figures in all of music history. Regarded as the greatest pianist of all time, who outplayed such greats as Chopin and Thalberg, his genius extended far beyond the piano to push musical composition and performance well beyond its 19th Century limits. His unique compositions bewildered, inspired and inflamed the imaginations of his own era, yet quite miraculously he also laid the seeds for a series of schools that would flourish in the near and distant future. Such as; the late Romantic, Impressionist and Atonal schools. For this... Liszt is unique - and his immense influence monumental."
DeSilvio identifies several of Liszt's innovations. Among them are:
His piano compositions stand as pinnacles of the literature.
He invented the symphonic poem.
His music evoked deep psychological and emotional impact far exceeding what existed previously, thus opening new doors to new dimensions in sound and the human psyche.
He was one of the first modern conductors breathing life into a score in lieu of merely beating time. Thus focusing more on fluid expression, not a cold metronomic beat.
He developed the transformation of themes, later imitated by Wagner as a leitmotif.
He was the true inventor of impressionism and atonal music, well before Debussy and Schoenberg.
He was the first to fully orchestrate on the piano- utilizing all its undiscovered resources- earning him the title King of the piano.
He devised the piano recital and master class, both indispensable to modern audiences and students alike. He had perfect pitch and was the first performer to play entirely from memory, thus forging today's commonplace standard. Likewise, he was a philanthropist that raised funds for national disasters and charities, or erecting the Beethoven monument, which was largely due to his efforts.
He selflessly promoted the works of fellow composers; Wagner, Grieg, Smetana, Berlioz, Debussy, Saint-Saëns, Faure, Borodin and others who all likewise gained valuable artistic insights into their own creativity by this grand master.
And most importantly, he altered the course of music history, more than any 19th Century composer, as the future would follow Liszt's direction, not Brahms or the traditionalists- who followed Beethoven's adopted classical structure.

An underpublicized area of Liszt which is well worth attention is the austere religious music - highly recommended is the late Via Crucis and some of the psalms. Not all are necessarily chockful of innovations (Via Crucis is) but there's exceptional music there nonetheless (eg., Psalm 137 - By the waters of Babylon).
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2010, 01:57:23 AM
I see what you are saying, and yes, those composers were obviously inspired by Liszt.

There, you see, when you're not clowning around with your Suuuper Geeenius dog-&-pony show, you're even capable of a quietly sane remark.

Quote
Bartok even referred to him as the first modern pianist. The problem is that the late works of Liszt were probably inspired by Wagner in the first place. Its hard to pinpoint who influenced whom.

Yes, though your efforts on this head are hampered by your need to consider N1. a suuuupernal geeeenius and N2. "inconsequential" because he is not a suuuupernal geeeenius.

Quote
All we can say for sure is that the harmonic ideas of Liszt were more advanced then those of Wagner.

Full stop.  That is all we can say for sure (unless we go on to say that, once Wagner had his go at advancing those harmonic ideas, he retrenched to arguably safer harmonic ground with his next opera).  The drivel you followed that remark up with is your tired old boilerplate.  If didn't have your muzzle in a bag of glue, you might realize that yourself.  As it is, such remarks are continuing demonstration that you don't have a grasp on what a fact is.
 
Quote
Most of [Liszt's] late works are great, but finding a good recording of them is a challenge.

And the latest works were written after Wagner's death, when even such a suuuupernal geeeenius could not have elevated anything.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2010, 01:58:08 AM
There is much that is wrong-headed and misinformative here. A bald statement of untruth backed up no example or explanation.

Ah!  I see you've now met "Josquin"!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Dax on April 07, 2010, 02:17:30 AM
He does keep crossing my path. But doesn't (cannot) attempt an answer. Perhaps that's as it should be.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,15893.msg395945.html#msg395945

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,16064.msg403432.html#msg403432
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on April 07, 2010, 03:15:39 AM
Quote
He was the true inventor of impressionism and atonal music, well before Debussy and Schoenberg.
It's interesting how much of an important statement this is, yet this is the first time I've ever seen it written down. Of course, they took the styles much further, but  this seems to be overlooked a bit.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2010, 04:32:40 AM
The idea of inventors in music (especially in a statement which which wants somehow to de-prioritize Debussy and Schoenberg) is a little dodgy, isn't it?

One excellent aspect of this discussion, though, is to remind us the extent to which the Romantics were about restless expansion and pushing the envelope.  The Neo-Romantics would seem to have us believe that the Romantics were all about warm-&-fuzzy-dom.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2010, 04:34:05 AM
He does keep crossing my path. But doesn't (cannot) attempt an answer. Perhaps that's as it should be.

He's like a telemarketer;  draw him away from his script and he's lost.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Dax on April 07, 2010, 05:11:46 AM
The idea of inventors in music (especially in a statement which which wants somehow to de-prioritize Debussy and Schoenberg) is a little dodgy, isn't it?

Quote
He was the true inventor of impressionism and atonal music, well before Debussy and Schoenberg


Yes, I did bite my lip about that one. I agree that the idea of "inventors" is dodgy, but I don't object to Debussy and Schoenberg being "de-prioritized". Not until the likes of Satie and Ives are given their due, anyway.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on April 07, 2010, 06:02:38 AM
One excellent aspect of this discussion, though, is to remind us the extent to which the Romantics were about restless expansion and pushing the envelope.  The Neo-Romantics would seem to have us believe that the Romantics were all about warm-&-fuzzy-dom.[/font]
Yep.


The idea of inventors in music (especially in a statement which which wants somehow to de-prioritize Debussy and Schoenberg) is a little dodgy, isn't it?
Or maybe you could think of composers as explorers, in a way. Liszt could be the guy that discovered many different countries but didn't do much about it. He just opened them up so others could claim them as their own and explore even more things about the country (of course "country" would be like saying "style".) Obviously, Liszt never invented the tone row, for example- but, I just wonder how different Debussy, Wagner or Schoenberg would sound if it weren't for Liszt.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 07, 2010, 06:06:04 AM
As it is, such remarks are continuing demonstration that you don't have a grasp on what a fact is.[/font]

Wagner was a genius. Liszt was not. That is as undeniable a fact as they come. I don't have to provide an explanation (even assuming such a thing was possible) because the truth inherent in this statement is self evident to anyone who has even the slighest stretch of artistic sensibility. You however conveniently chose to avoid denying those "facts", but you still want to object, ever so strongly, to the simple idea that I (I mind you) might have any specific knowledge or insight into so difficoult a subject. You want to accuse me of being dead wrong, always, without necessarily confirm or deny the truth inherent in my statements. You accuse me of having no grasp on what a fact is, and yet you are yourself prone of making statements of fact regarding my alleged ignorance. Pray tell, how do you know whether i am in fact wrong?

(unless we go on to say that, once Wagner had his go at advancing those harmonic ideas, he retrenched to arguably safer harmonic ground with his next opera)

It needs to be stressed of course that the advancement of harmony is not a great or important artistic goal in and of itself. Brahms made no advancement whatsoever in the field of harmony and he was still a greater artist then Liszt. I hope one day Grieg will come to realize the truth of this.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 07, 2010, 07:07:30 AM
One excellent aspect of this discussion, though, is to remind us the extent to which the Romantics were about restless expansion and pushing the envelope.  The Neo-Romantics would seem to have us believe that the Romantics were all about warm-&-fuzzy-dom.[/font]

Modernists of course would have us believe the Romantics were about restless expansion and pushing the envelope in their direction.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Dax on April 07, 2010, 07:38:37 AM
Wagner was a genius. Liszt was not. That is as undeniable a fact as they come. I don't have to provide an explanation (even assuming such a thing was possible) because the truth inherent in this statement is self evident to anyone who has even the slighest stretch of artistic sensibility. You however conveniently chose to avoid denying those "facts", but you still want to object, ever so strongly, to the simple idea that I (I mind you) might have any specific knowledge or insight into so difficoult a subject. You want to accuse me of being dead wrong, always, without necessarily confirm or deny the truth inherent in my statements. You accuse me of having no grasp on what a fact is, and yet you are yourself prone of making statements of fact regarding my alleged ignorance. Pray tell, how do you know whether i am in fact wrong?

Blimey.

So what do your friends call you? Benito?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2010, 07:40:53 AM
Blimey.

So what do your friends call you? Benito?

He has friends? Nyuk-nyuk-nyuk . . . .
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2010, 07:50:49 AM
Modernists of course would have us believe the Romantics were about restless expansion and pushing the envelope in their direction.

You always were one to luxuriate in strawmen.

Liszt was not [a genius]. That is as undeniable a fact as they come.

Well, but what did the genius Wagner say? To Liszt, he said, "I am now convinced that you are the greatest musician of all times."

Now: did Wagner's genius fail him, that he made such an evaluation of Liszt?  Or is it possible for Liszt to be "the greatest musician of all times," without being a genius?

Nor was this an impression unique to Wagner.  George Eliot said that "Genius, benevolence, and tenderness beam from his whole countenance, and his manners are  in perfect harmony with it."

You have this dollhouse you play in, where everything depends on this guy being a genius, and that guy or gal not being a genius; a dollhouse (parenthetically) in which a gal is genetically incapable of genius.  If you like your little cartoony world, have at it.  But it is idiocy on your part to imagine that the arts world at large confines itself to your fond little imaginings.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on April 07, 2010, 07:56:38 AM
You have this dollhouse you play in, where everything depends on this guy being a genius, and that guy or gal not being a genius; a dollhouse (parenthetically) in which a gal is genetically incapable of genius.  If you like your little cartoony world, have at it.  But it is idiocy on your part to imagine that the arts world at large confines itself to your fond little imaginings.[/font]

But it can fun when JdP and James go at it, and cartoon worlds collide. 

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2010, 08:02:28 AM
You've got a point there!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: DavidW on April 07, 2010, 08:21:31 AM
Slightly off topic, but more enjoyable than posts about Wagner and genius is pop song and music video praising Liszt ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BJDNw7o6so (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BJDNw7o6so)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 07, 2010, 09:05:12 AM
You have this dollhouse you play in, where everything depends on this guy being a genius, and that guy or gal not being a genius; a dollhouse (parenthetically) in which a gal is genetically incapable of genius.  If you like your little cartoony world, have at it.  But it is idiocy on your part to imagine that the arts world at large confines itself to your fond little imaginings.[/font]

To the contrary. Those are not merely my own little imaginings, but are fundamental truths which were quite common knowledge in the past. The real dollhouse is that created by 20th century liberalism. It is they (and you) who live in a comic book world made out of colored rainbows and flying ponies, where reality is suppressed in favor of conformable make believe fantasies. In the words of Francis Parker Yockey:

Quote
Liberalism is, in one word, weakness. It wants every day to be a birthday, Life to be a long party.

The inexorable movement of Time, Destiny, History, the cruelty of accomplishment, sternness, heroism, sacrifice, superpersonal ideas, these are the enemy.  Liberalism is an escape from hardness into softness, from masculinity into femininity, from History to herd-grazing, from reality into herbivorous dreams, from Destiny into Happiness.  Nietzsche, in his last and greatest work, designated the 18th century as the century of feminism, and immediately mentioned Rousseau, the leader of the mass-escape from Reality. Feminism itself what is it but a means of feminizing man?  If it makes women man-like, it does so only by transforming man first into a creature whose only concern is with his personal economics and his relation to society,i.e., a woman. Society is the element of woman, it is static and formal, its contests are purely personal, and are free from the possibility of heroism and violence.  Conversation, not action; formality, not deeds.  How different is the idea of rank used in connection with a social affair, from when it is applied on a battlefield!  In the field, it is fate-laden; in the salon it is vain and pompous.  A war is fought for control, social contests are inspired by feminine vanity and jealousy to show that one is better than someone else.

Who has the more refined dollhouse then? Is it me, with my insistent stress on genius (an heroic ideal), or is it you, with your placid condescension, comfortable in your sense of superiority for adhering to the "sane" and "socially correct" opinion?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Dax on April 07, 2010, 09:17:52 AM
OK chaps! Joking over. Liszt does swing. Here's the proof - I recommend you go for Earl Bostic. Trouble is you have to do a bit of arithmetic first - but fear not: it doesn't take a genius to solve the problem.

http://music.tonnel.ru/?l=music&alb=41370

Having satisfied yourselves with Bostic, do try Charly Cotton.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 07, 2010, 09:21:35 AM
Ironically, my assessment of Liszt as a composer is concomitant with the opinion expressed in the original article posted by Grieg:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_works_of_Franz_Liszt

Quote
One point not normally discussed with Liszt but not unfamiliar to late-19th-century composers was his consciousness of working in the shadow of composers he considered giants. In Liszt's case, the shadows were those of Beethoven and Wagner He professed to find consolation and inspiration in their works. However, it is also possible their greatness may have had an effect on his own ability to compose. While he blamed his inability to complete compositions on his busy social calendar as late as the early 1870s, by the late 1870s he began to express fears of failing creativity on his part.

It seems Liszt himself was aware of the limitations of his creative genius.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on April 07, 2010, 09:21:44 AM
To the contrary. Those are not merely my own little imaginings, but are fundamental truths which were quite common knowledge in the past.

These truths are evident to you alone?  Makes me wonder if you have a dissociative mental disorder.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 07, 2010, 09:28:05 AM
These truths are evident to you alone?

No, they are evident to a plethora of different people. Of course, such arguments being unacceptable in polite society their voice is rarely heard, which gives the impression only a rare few are capable of understanding certain ideas.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2010, 09:49:43 AM
Slightly off topic

No worries! JdP's idiocy of taking every thread about 19th-c. composers as an occasion to flog his suuuuupernal geeeenius boilerplate, is the immediate OT offense ; )
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: jowcol on April 07, 2010, 10:16:37 AM
(http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr229/adam_ah/wile_e_coyote_super_genius.jpg)
It is not enough to be a Genius.  One must be a Super Genius,  such as the Esteemed Professor Wile. E. Coyote from the Acme Conservatory of Music

Here is Dr. Coyote demonstrating his pedagogical approach for playing the works of Liszt.  (Just to get us back on topic...)
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/v3q_we8ilp8/0.jpg)

I am particularly moved by the inherent greatness of his compositions, such as the Concerto for Road Runner in B Flat, (featuring the solo part for falling anvil) .

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2010, 10:24:03 AM
Incorporating the anvil into the orchestra? Geeeeenius!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: jowcol on April 07, 2010, 11:35:11 AM
Incorporating the anvil into the orchestra? Geeeeenius!

I hate to split hares, (http://www.fastcharacters.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/famous-cartoon-character-bugs-bunny.jpg)

but the term  is SUPER Genius. 

And, by following that line of thought, Verdi would be a SUPER Genius by association, since he wrote the Anvil Chorus.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: MN Dave on April 07, 2010, 11:37:27 AM
I hate to split hares, but that is SUPER Genius. 

And, by following that line of thought, Verdi would be a SUPER Genius by association, since he wrote the Anvil Chorus.

Well, Verdi thought of it first so it turns your Coyote Super Genius theory to mush.  ;D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: jowcol on April 07, 2010, 11:39:29 AM
Well, Verdi thought of it first so it turns your Coyote Super Genius theory to mush.  ;D

You may think so, but there is a silent minority who still have the nobility of heart and purity of virtue to honor the Coyote.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2010, 11:41:26 AM
Well, Verdi thought of it first so it turns your Coyote Super Genius theory to mush.  ;D

And where do you suppose what's-his-name got the idea for his Neebeloong forge scene? ; )  Sheer geeenius, that Verdi!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 07, 2010, 11:55:34 AM
http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/genqtpg.html

"Next to possessing genius one's self is the power of appreciating it in others."

- Mark Twain

(http://www.stadtaus.com/demos/guestbook_de/templates/default/images/smilies/smiley_smug.gif)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 07, 2010, 11:57:16 AM
A pity, that your power supply is too weak to appreciate Liszt's genius!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on April 07, 2010, 06:52:07 PM
No, they are evident to a plethora of different people. Of course, such arguments being unacceptable in polite society their voice is rarely heard, which gives the impression only a rare few are capable of understanding certain ideas.
But what if someone prefers Liszt over Wagner? Are they wrong?

Wagner is, of course, much more loved than Liszt, but I don't think it really means anything more than that. Music isn't exactly a game where the composers score points, and the one with the most points is the most genius. If comparing genius in writing music means being "better" than someone at it, that doesn't make sense at all, because when composers write music, they're just trying to be themselves (hopefully in most cases). So, how are you comparing them- by saying that one composer is better at being themselves than the other composer?  ???
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on April 07, 2010, 06:52:56 PM
douchebags ...
You have to admit, it can be kind of funny...
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: George on April 07, 2010, 06:55:20 PM
You have to admit, it can be kind of funny...

We could make a Black Comedy out of it.  ;D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on April 07, 2010, 06:59:53 PM
We could make a Black Comedy out of it.  ;D

Jim Carrey and Jeff Daniels?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on April 07, 2010, 07:19:30 PM
Case & point .. Crapia ... musical ignoramus..

Hits too close to home, eh?   ;D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: George on April 07, 2010, 07:20:25 PM
Jim Carrey and Jeff Daniels?

 ;D

Nothing like a laugh right before bedtime. Thanks!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on April 07, 2010, 07:21:01 PM
I need cool recitals, with all the dreary stuff, but without the Sonata. Are there more than two options for the late pieces? Anyone?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on April 07, 2010, 07:54:11 PM
I need cool recitals, with all the dreary stuff, but without the Sonata. Are there more than two options for the late pieces? Anyone?

Sorry, I didn't know I posted in the middle of something. My quest still stands.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Dax on April 08, 2010, 12:49:57 AM
I need cool recitals, with all the dreary stuff, but without the Sonata. Are there more than two options for the late pieces? Anyone?

Sorry, but I don't quite understand the question. Are you after recommendations for late piano pieces or recordings of either piano music or the late music in general?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 08, 2010, 02:50:58 AM
So, how are you comparing them- by saying that one composer is better at being themselves than the other composer?  ???

You're giving JdP too much credit.  Far too much.  It is simply that he has so little imagination, that all he can do in a thread which is devoted to the discussion of Liszt, is blather on about how Wagner was a suuuuupernal geeeenius.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 08, 2010, 02:53:12 AM
Leslie Howard has recorded a boat-load of Liszt on Hyperion . . . I've no idea how the series is organized, though.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: jowcol on April 08, 2010, 03:47:45 AM
I'm going to to something radical and talk about Liszt for a second.   

I've always found the following story rather inspirational-- but do any of you know it is an urban legend?  The version I'm reproducing is from somebody's sermon, so the language may be a bit weighted.


Over 100 years ago woman in small German town advertised a piano recital she was to give. The
posters falsely claimed she was a student of the famous Hungarian composer & pianist Franz
Liszt. To her utter dismay, Liszt visited that little village on vacation at the very time of her
recital. She knew she'd be labeled a liar and have her budding career ruined by scandal, so she
went to where Liszt was staying and asked to speak with him. Thru tears and humiliation she
confessed. He admitted it was terribly wrong of her, but noted that we all make mistakes. Only
thing he wanted was for her to be sorry. "Now, will you let me hear you play?" Several errors
because of nerves. He corrected her at certain points & made some suggestions at key places.
When finished, "My dear, you are now a pupil of Franz Liszt. I have instructed you this
afternoon. Tomorrow, go on with your concert, and the last number on the program will be
played not by the pupil, but by the teacher!"


I've always found this very admirable.  (Just hoping it is true...)



Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on April 08, 2010, 04:34:50 AM
In the words of Francis Parker Yockey:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Parker_Yockey

I hadn't heard of him, but he sounds like a swell guy ???
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 05:12:35 AM
But what if someone prefers Liszt over Wagner? Are they wrong?

Yes. When i first begun listening to classical music, one could say that deep down i still preferred the metal artists of my youth to the new sounds i was perceiving. I have since corrected that flaw in the panorama of my artistic scope.

Wagner is, of course, much more loved than Liszt, but I don't think it really means anything more than that.

Neither have i ever inferred that he is a greater genius because he is more loved.

Music isn't exactly a game where the composers score points, and the one with the most points is the most genius.

All art is nothing more then a quest to achieve absolute truth. The very few who are successful in this goal make all other efforts essentially redundant. There is no fiercer competition.

If comparing genius in writing music means being "better" than someone at it, that doesn't make sense at all, because when composers write music, they're just trying to be themselves (hopefully in most cases). So, how are you comparing them- by saying that one composer is better at being themselves than the other composer?  ???

Essentially, yes:

Quote
The man of genius is he who understands incomparably more other beings than the average man. Goethe is said to have said of himself that there was no vice or crime of which he could not trace the tendency in himself, and that at some period of his life he could not have understood fully. The genius, therefore, is a more complicated, more richly endowed, more varied man; and a man is the closer to being a genius the more men he has in his personality, and the more really and strongly he has these others within him[/b[. If comprehension of those about him only flickers in him like a poor candle, then he is unable, like the great poet, to kindle a mighty flame in his heroes, to give distinction and character to his creations. The ideal of an artistic genius is to live in all men, to lose himself in all men, to reveal himself in multitudes; and so also the aim of the philosopher is to discover all others in himself, to fuse them into a unit which is his own unit.

- Otto Weininger 
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: jowcol on April 08, 2010, 06:22:22 AM
All art is nothing more then a quest to achieve absolute truth. The very few who are successful in this goal make all other efforts essentially redundant. There is no fiercer competition.

 I think the that competition to pigeon-hole the multifaceted contributions of complex, gifted, and often often inconsistent artists  into a simplistic, pass-fail , binary model is a pretty fierce competition as well.

It is my personal opinion  is that we lose a lot or our understanding of great artists by bleaching them of their humanness and oversimplifying how we view them, forcing them to conform to standards we define long after they are dead.   I've made this point in other threads, but I personally find it hysterical how we mythologize the creative processes of Shakespeare and Dickens (both of whom I adore), while both were essentially hacks, cranking out materials to support an immediate audience.  Was the stage direction "Exit, pursued by Bear" from the Winter's Tale a lasting insight into the relationship between man, nature, and fate?  Or was it a quick hack to remove a character that was no longer needed?   IMO, it is their empathy with the human condition that made Dickens and Shakespeare so successful, and made the initially transitory nature of their art into something of lasting value. 

Likewise, I adore Bach.  (And yes, will gladly call him a genius).  But do we owe the huge amount of cantatas he wrote to a sublime search for absolute truth, or the fact he needed music for performing each Sunday?  Did he sit down each day to make a lasting monument to civilization, or to write something for someone to play?  Let us hope for Bach's sake that he never prostituted his need to capture ABSOLUTE TRUTH by writing  exercises for music pupils to play.  If he did, I'd guess that we would need to pull him off the pedestal.  (Oops... he did, didn't he?  Too bad.  I liked him. )

One of the themes that shows up a lot in the fiction by Vladimir Nabokov (and, unfortunately, in too many of the  Biographies I've read) is that the biographer takes over the story, uses it to address some personal agenda  and the purported "subject" of the biography becomes an afterthought. I've always found this approach to be quite onanistic, and lacking in respect that the artist deserves.

Of course, this is all my silly opinion-- I don't want to conflate it to anything more than that.   In my own personal musical hierarchy, I wouldn't put Liszt or Wagner in my "genius" category, just in the "awfully damn good" category, but that is just based on my personal reaction to what my ears tell me.  And if someone wants to tell me that I'm lacking in musical taste, they are probably right....








 


Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 06:52:46 AM
I personally find it hysterical how we mythologize the creative processes of Shakespeare and Dickens (both of whom I adore), while both were essentially hacks, cranking out materials to support an immediate audience.

Only a moron would confuse the inner pulse that drive a creative artist with the immediate circumstances that lead to the creation of their work. Shakespeare was a genius because of who was. He couldn't have helped being a genius even if he tried to. The only thing that is hysterical here is your own stupidity. I always strived not to insult anybody here but i can no longer tolerate this level of thick headedness.

Refraining from ad hominem attacks is the best possible way to maintain your posting privileges. Good thing to remember.
GB


IMO, it is their empathy with the human condition that made Shakespeare so successful

Which is a characteristic of genius.

(http://www.revitcity.com/forum_files/56424_face_palm.bmp)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: springrite on April 08, 2010, 06:58:45 AM
Certain hijacked threads should have subjects changed to "JdP'ed thread". This way I'd know not to visit it again.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on April 08, 2010, 07:00:33 AM
Certain hijacked threads should have subjects changed to "JdP'ed thread". This way I'd know not to visit it again.

That would be giving the JdP's of the world too much power.  Best to scroll past and resume the discussion.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 07:10:16 AM
I wasn't the one to hijack the thread. My original post was very much on topic. Its people who took objection to my assessment of the creative worth of Liszt that drove this thread astray.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 08, 2010, 07:11:09 AM
Well I have an actual Liszt question. I have Szidon on the Hungarian Rhapsodies. He's ok for some of them, but he misses it for me on #2 (the famous one).  He's too abrupt and not nuanced enough in some of the early going. I have ordered some selections performed by Fiorentino. Anyone have any opinions on this?  Who do you think performs them ideally (for you anyway)?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: springrite on April 08, 2010, 07:12:03 AM
I wasn't the one to hijack the thread. My original post was very much on topic. Its people who took objection to my assessment of the creative worth of Liszt that drove this thread astray.

How dare they disagree with the God of Music who holds absolute truth?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 07:12:12 AM
Refraining from ad hominem attacks is the best possible way to maintain your posting privileges. Good thing to remember.
GB

Nobody complains when people like James do it. Am i missing something here?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on April 08, 2010, 07:16:20 AM
Well I have an actual Liszt question. I have Szidon on the Hungarian Rhapsodies. He's ok for some of them, but he misses it for me on #2 (the famous one).  He's too abrupt and not nuanced enough in some of the early going. I have ordered some selections performed by Fiorentino. Anyone have any opinions on this?  Who do you think performs them ideally (for you anyway)?

This one is self-recommending, I have it but haven't found the time to listen yet.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41T029RX3PL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (Cziffra)

On the other hand, I've listened to this set and enjoyed it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410H94HQ9AL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (Campanella)

But then again, I like Sidoze better.   8)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2010, 07:17:45 AM
Nobody complains when people like James do it. Am i missing something here?

Go back and look at James' last outburst on the previous page. And it doesn't need a complaint necessarily, I am quite entitled to file my own complaint. Thus, I complained to myself and decide that my complaint was justified.

Anyone is entitled to hold any bizarre POV they wish for as long as they are up to defending it. Calling people morons and such isn't a legitimate defense, it's a tool of intellectual desperation. ::)

8)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 08, 2010, 07:18:54 AM
Only a moron would confuse the inner pulse that drive a creative artist with the immediate circumstances that lead to the creation of their work. Shakespeare was a genius because of who was. He couldn't have helped being a genius even if he tried to. The only thing that is hysterical here is your own stupidity. I always strived not to insult anybody here but i can no longer tolerate this level of thick headedness.

Refraining from ad hominem attacks is the best possible way to maintain your posting privileges. Good thing to remember.
GB

Aw, Gurn.  Just as it wasn't "JdP" who hijacked the thread about Liszt, but rather it was the fault of those who wished to discuss the merits of Liszt's music on the Liszt thread — "JdP" would never have called anyone a moron, without severe provocation!  He didn't want to call anyone a moron!  He had to call us all morons in the search for absolute truth!
 
It's for our own good, you see.
 
Well I have an actual Liszt question. I have Szidon on the Hungarian Rhapsodies. He's ok for some of them, but he misses it for me on #2 (the famous one).  He's too abrupt and not nuanced enough in some of the early going. I have ordered some selections performed by Fiorentino. Anyone have any opinions on this?  Who do you think performs them ideally (for you anyway)?

 
I agree that the Szidon set is mixed . . . I haven't yet sought out a better.  As Scarpia suggests, the Cziffra must be good . . . but of course, it's incomplete.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: springrite on April 08, 2010, 07:21:09 AM
I have the Cziffra and Misha Dichter, among others. Cziffra is satisfying. Dichter's left hand seems weak in comparison with his right, causing a problem in balance for me. I also have Brendel but have not listened to it for about 10 years and funny enough, I have no impressions of how I felt when I last listened.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 07:23:38 AM
How dare they disagree with the God of Music who holds absolute truth?

They could have simply tried to state all their reasons for believing Liszt was in fact a genius if they so objected to my original statement, rather then howl feces at my general direction. But i suspect the reason they refrained from doing so is that deep down they probably know i am right, which psyches them out. Notice that the fact Liszt may or may have not been a genius does not preclude any discussion of his music, which is very much worth talking about.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 07:31:45 AM
Well I have an actual Liszt question. I have Szidon on the Hungarian Rhapsodies. He's ok for some of them, but he misses it for me on #2 (the famous one).  He's too abrupt and not nuanced enough in some of the early going. I have ordered some selections performed by Fiorentino. Anyone have any opinions on this?  Who do you think performs them ideally (for you anyway)?

Cannot answer that. But if you are looking for a good recording of the Etudes, i must say i was pleasantly surprised by Vladimir Ovchinikov, which i acquired a while back. Very clear and detailed, whereas many other pianists always sound a bit cacophonic in their inability to resolve all the technical challenges posed by this compositions.

I uploaded the second Etude so you guys can sample this recording:

http://rapidshare.com/files/373501655/02_-_Untitled.flac.html
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 08, 2010, 07:32:01 AM
I have the Cziffra and Misha Dichter, among others. Cziffra is satisfying. Dichter's left hand seems weak in comparison with his right, causing a problem in balance for me. I also have Brendel but have not listened to it for about 10 years and funny enough, I have no impressions of how I felt when I last listened.

A great friend of mine is practically a Liszt expert . . . I don't know that he has an ideal set of the Hungarian Rhapsodies, either.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 07:40:28 AM
A great friend of mine is practically a Liszt expert . . . I don't know that he has an ideal set of the Hungarian Rhapsodies, either.

This seems to be a recurrent theme with Liszt.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: jowcol on April 08, 2010, 07:46:45 AM
As part of our search for the truth, we should continue to entertain the possibility that jowcol IS a moron, and thick-headed one at that.  I tend to concur with the original post.

 
But I also know for a fact that he is  also thick-skinned, admires the passion people bring to their love of music, and welcomes the participation of everyone on this board, and encourages them to continue posting!  ;) 


Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 08, 2010, 07:54:22 AM
This seems to be a recurrent theme with Liszt.

No, you're just apt to see what you want to see.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: MN Dave on April 08, 2010, 07:56:35 AM
jowcool
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 08, 2010, 08:05:16 AM
If it sounds good, it is good. Genius.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: kishnevi on April 08, 2010, 08:05:44 AM
A great friend of mine is practically a Liszt expert . . . I don't know that he has an ideal set of the Hungarian Rhapsodies, either.

Dark horse suggestion: Jando on Naxos.  It's in two volumes that make up part of their complete piano works series.  When I first got it, I had a mixed reaction to it, but it's grown on me over time.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: MN Dave on April 08, 2010, 08:12:54 AM
Keyboard warriors, I call 'em.  :)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 08, 2010, 08:14:51 AM
Keyboard warriors

That's Liszt!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: DavidW on April 08, 2010, 08:20:37 AM
Keyboard warriors, I call 'em.  :)

See we need a Chopin vs Liszt thread. ;D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: MN Dave on April 08, 2010, 08:23:24 AM
Go for it. Start a poll. I would...
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2010, 08:26:46 AM
BTW, it's hard to beat Ivan Fischer for the Hungarian Rhapsodies. Just tryin' to stay on topic, if I may... :)

8)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 08, 2010, 08:30:59 AM
BTW, it's hard to beat Ivan Fischer for the Hungarian Rhapsodies. Just tryin' to stay on topic, if I may... :)

8)

Oh, so you're switching to the orchestral transcriptions, is that it? ; )
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2010, 08:35:21 AM
Oh, so you're switching to the orchestral transcriptions, is that it? ; )

That's what I like... "Pianos? We don' need no steenkin' pianos!". :)

8)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 08, 2010, 08:55:09 AM
Go for it. Start a poll. I would...

Oh, yes, he would . . . .
 
I like both Chopin & Liszt, and won't choose between them.  (Chopin dedicate his Opus 10 Etudes to Liszt.)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 08, 2010, 08:56:55 AM
BTW, it's hard to beat Ivan Fischer for the Hungarian Rhapsodies. Just tryin' to stay on topic, if I may... :)

8)

Well, I have Dorati conducting an orchestral version and he is fantastic, so I have never explored further.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 08, 2010, 09:06:03 AM
Which, BTW, means that Liszt was more important to the history of piano playing and literature than Wagner.  (To state the obvious.)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: jowcol on April 08, 2010, 09:08:35 AM

Oh, yes, he would . . . .
 
I like both Chopin & Liszt, and won't choose between them.  (Chopin dedicate his Opus 10 Etudes to Liszt.)

I remember reading some anecdote where the lighting was bad in one place, and Chopin essentially played in the dark.  The audience loved it, and so it was repeated, but the second time,  unknown to anyone but Chopin, Liszt sat in, and played in the style of Chopin, and fooled the audience.  Afterwards, Liszt said that although he could play in the style of Chopin, Chopin could probably not play in the style of Liszt. 

I may have mangled this beyond all recognition, as the book I am recalling from in in the Library, but I'd have a hard time picking one or another in a poll.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 08, 2010, 09:09:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston
BTW, it's hard to beat Ivan Fischer for the Hungarian Rhapsodies. Just tryin' to stay on topic, if I may... :)

8)

Well, I have Dorati conducting an orchestral version and he is fantastic, so I have never explored further.

At the risk of agreeing with you both, everything that I have heard conducted either by Doráti or Fischer has been excellent.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 08, 2010, 09:11:16 AM
I remember reading some anecdote where the lighting was bad in one place, and Chopin essentially played in the dark.  The audience loved it, and so it was repeated, but the second time,  unknown to anyone but Chopin, Liszt sat in, and played in the style of Chopin, and fooled the audience.  Afterwards, Liszt said that although he could play in the style of Chopin, Chopin could probably not play in the style of Liszt. 

I may have mangled this beyond all recognition, as the book I am recalling from in in the Library, but I'd have a hard time picking one or another in a poll.

Dang, I really need to read a biography or two . . . .
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 09:25:07 AM
I remember reading some anecdote where the lighting was bad in one place, and Chopin essentially played in the dark.  The audience loved it, and so it was repeated, but the second time,  unknown to anyone but Chopin, Liszt sat in, and played in the style of Chopin, and fooled the audience.  Afterwards, Liszt said that although he could play in the style of Chopin, Chopin could probably not play in the style of Liszt. 

I may have mangled this beyond all recognition, as the book I am recalling from in in the Library, but I'd have a hard time picking one or another in a poll.

I've read all three volumes of Alan Walker's Liszt biography and i never encountered this anecdote. This is the version i read:

Quote
One evening, when they were all assembled in the salon, Liszt played one of Chopin’s nocturnes, to which he took the liberty of adding some embellishments. Chopin’s delicate intellectual face, which still bore the traces of recent illness, looked disturbed; at last he could not control himself any longer, and in that tone of sang froid which he sometimes assumed he said, “I beg you, my dear friend, when you do me the honor of playing my compositions, to play them as they are written or else not at all.” “Play it yourself then,” said Liszt, rising from the piano, rather piqued. “With pleasure,” answered Chopin. . . . Then he began to improvise and played for nearly an hour. And what an improvisation it was! Description would be impossible, for the feelings awakened by Chopin’s magic fingers are not transferable into words.

When he left the piano his audience were in tears; Liszt was deeply affected, and said to Chopin, as he embraced him, “Yes, my friend, you were right; works like yours ought not to be meddled with; other people’s alterations only spoil them. You are a true poet.” “Oh, it is nothing,” returned Chopin, gaily, “We each have our own style.”
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Bulldog on April 08, 2010, 09:26:46 AM
Dark horse suggestion: Jando on Naxos.  It's in two volumes that make up part of their complete piano works series.  When I first got it, I had a mixed reaction to it, but it's grown on me over time.

I second the Jando set; he's a good match for Liszt.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: MN Dave on April 08, 2010, 09:28:00 AM
Excellent anecdote! Thanks.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 08, 2010, 09:29:27 AM
Well, how 'bout that Liszt guy?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 09:35:46 AM

No, you're just apt to see what you want to see.

No, i really believe there is a dearth of good Liszt recordings and that a lot of people are not entirely satisfied with what they have.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 09:36:35 AM
Which, BTW, means that Liszt was more important to the history of piano playing and literature than Wagner.  (To state the obvious.)

Wagner's own piano works are dreadful to a degree i didn't thought possible, even though some of his characteristic creative signatures still manage to show through every once i a while. He must have really despised writing for the instrument.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: jowcol on April 08, 2010, 09:47:58 AM
I've read all three volumes of Alan Walker's Liszt biography and i never encountered this anecdote. This is the version i read:

Interesting, and thanks for providing this.  Next time I get by my library, I'll pull that book of composer anecdotes and see if I mangled it beyond recognition, if it was a different event, and if so, see about the source...
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 10:02:18 AM
Personally, i have no doubt in my mind that Liszt was a better pianist then Chopin, and i'm not speaking from a purely virtuosic point of view. However, it simply isn't plausible that he would be as capable at being Chopin as Chopin himself.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: jowcol on April 08, 2010, 10:15:14 AM
For a totally biased comparison of Chopin and Liszt, filled with direct personal assaults, threats, sweeping generalizations, some occasional earthy language and also some revelations (such as how Liszt invented jazz), check this out!  I'm still giggling...

http://xahlee.org/piano/chopin_liszt.html (http://xahlee.org/piano/chopin_liszt.html)









Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 10:28:23 AM
For a totally biased comparison of Chopin and Liszt, filled with direct personal assaults, threats, sweeping generalizations, some occasional earthy language and also some revelations (such as how Liszt invented jazz), check this out!  I'm still giggling...

http://xahlee.org/piano/chopin_liszt.html (http://xahlee.org/piano/chopin_liszt.html)

"Xah Lee"

Of course, had to be Chinese.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 08, 2010, 12:02:07 PM
I always suspected that Liszt invented jazz!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on April 08, 2010, 12:47:28 PM
For a totally biased comparison of Chopin and Liszt, filled with direct personal assaults, threats, sweeping generalizations, some occasional earthy language and also some revelations (such as how Liszt invented jazz), check this out!  I'm still giggling...

http://xahlee.org/piano/chopin_liszt.html (http://xahlee.org/piano/chopin_liszt.html)


Quote
If Chopin's music is a temptress, Liszt's is the buxom nubile jailbait next door, ready to throb your heart, burst your balls, and whack your brain out.
One of the strangest sentences I've read in my life... I actually had to look up "buxom nubile-" just don't google the term.  ::)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: DavidW on April 08, 2010, 12:57:46 PM
One of the strangest sentences I've read in my life.

Well I'll admit that I wouldn't want my balls burst and my brain whacked, doesn't sound pleasant! :D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: George on April 08, 2010, 12:58:33 PM
One of the strangest sentences I've read in my life... I actually had to look up "buxom nubile-" just don't google the term.  ::)

Not at work anyway.  ;D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on April 08, 2010, 01:03:32 PM
Did Prokofiev ever look towards Liszt for inspiration? (I should probably know this, but it's been years since I read a biography or his autobiography)...


Here's the Prokofiev sound before Prokofiev was even born:
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/Nm4hSAMu_Co
It's like a foreshadowing of pieces like the Dm Toccata or 2nd Sonata, especially.

I bet there's something of his that sounds exactly like Scriabin, too, but I just haven't found it yet. This one is close, though. I also remember hearing bits of an orchestral work that sounded exactly like Prokofiev- it might've been the Dante Symphony, though I'm not completely sure.

Also, even though I did say that I saw stuff that points to Schoenberg, I have to say that so far I've only heard stuff that points to early Schoenberg- specifically, stuff like the op.11 3 Piano Pieces. Probably there isn't anything that would point to later Schoenberg, since he evolved his own style himself.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 01:17:01 PM
Also, even though I did say that I saw stuff that points to Schoenberg, I have to say that so far I've only heard stuff that points to early Schoenberg- specifically, stuff like the op.11 3 Piano Pieces. Probably there isn't anything that would point to later Schoenberg, since he evolved his own style himself.

Schoenberg evolved from Brahms.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Bulldog on April 08, 2010, 01:38:40 PM
One of the strangest sentences I've read in my life... I actually had to look up "buxom nubile-" just don't google the term.  ::)

Oh my God!  That googling leads to pornography - now my day is ruined. ;D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Marc on April 08, 2010, 01:51:00 PM
For a totally biased comparison of Chopin and Liszt, filled with direct personal assaults, threats, sweeping generalizations, some occasional earthy language and also some revelations (such as how Liszt invented jazz), check this out!  I'm still giggling...

http://xahlee.org/piano/chopin_liszt.html (http://xahlee.org/piano/chopin_liszt.html)

Quote
If Chopin's music is a temptress, Liszt's is the buxom nubile jailbait next door, ready to throb your heart, burst your balls, and whack your brain out.
One of the strangest sentences I've read in my life... I actually had to look up "buxom nubile-" just don't google the term.  ::)
TOO LATE!
I just did, and my balls got burst!
Thanks a lot, GMG & Internet!
>:(
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Bulldog on April 08, 2010, 02:03:37 PM
Schoenberg evolved from Brahms.

Was any cloning involved?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on April 08, 2010, 02:13:43 PM
Was any cloning involved?

They didn't have cloning in those days.  It was parthenogenesis, I believe.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: jowcol on April 08, 2010, 02:47:24 PM
The other sentence I could not get over was

Quote
The prelude set in Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier is sufficient to dwarf Chopin's ass.

Something tells me that googling a couple of keywords in that sentence would also bring up a couple interesting sites and images I would not care to dwell upon.  (Or at least admit to in public...)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on April 08, 2010, 03:46:47 PM
Oh my God!  That googling leads to pornography - now my day is ruined. ;D
:D
Well, the way my Web of Trust reads, if you wanna get a virus...


The other sentence I could not get over was

The prelude set in Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier is sufficient to dwarf Chopin's ass.

Something tells me that googling a couple of keywords in that sentence would also bring up a couple interesting sites and images I would not care to dwell upon.  (Or at least admit to in public...)

Lol... scary idea it brought up in my mind. You know the character for the Lucky Charms cereal?
An inappropriate picture with him saying, "I'm magically delicious!"
 :-\
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on April 08, 2010, 03:53:48 PM
Schoenberg evolved from Brahms.
Yeah, cuz of Brahms' ball busting radical harmony...
wait, aren't  you the guy that just laughed at Schoenberg's essay "Brahms the Modernist"? I'm not sure if you're serious or just kidding around...


 
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 08, 2010, 04:21:18 PM
But, on a modern piano, the Bach preludes are just too froo-froo.  Pretty, dainty, nicely turned, of course.  Part of what I love about the Chopin and Liszt catalogues is, they are written to take advantage of the character and capacity of the piano, and both composers pushed that capacity.
 
The Bach pieces are nice, but they're also mix-&-match.  Almost doesn't matter which instrument they're played on.  The music sounds dandy on any instrument(s), but the music doesn't belong to any particular timbre.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 04:28:13 PM
Yeah, cuz of Brahms' ball busting radical harmony...

Ho, but radical harmony isn't the only thing that characterizes the music of Schoenberg (Schoenberg's harmony being derived mostly from Mahler anyway). Extremely tight counterpoint and what can only be referred to as " intervallic syncopation" are also employed profusely, and he took that from Brahms.  Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAERQ92DOOQ

Don't mind the performance, focus on the vertical elements. Without this level of vertical sophistication the works of Schoenberg wouldn't be anywhere near as difficult to listen to, extreme harmony and all.

wait, aren't  you the guy that just laughed at Schoenberg's essay "Brahms the Modernist"? I'm not sure if you're serious or just kidding around...

Did i? I have a terrible memory, i don't quite remember what i may have said in that regard.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: DavidW on April 08, 2010, 04:29:10 PM
Karl, I just don't think that pretty and dainty describe Bach.  Sublime.  Magnificent.  Profound.  Now those words describe Bach. 8)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 04:32:19 PM
But, on a modern piano, the Bach preludes are just too froo-froo.  Pretty, dainty, nicely turned, of course.  Part of what I love about the Chopin and Liszt catalogues is, they are written to take advantage of the character and capacity of the piano, and both composers pushed that capacity.

True, except Liszt pushed a lot harder, harder then most, before or since. Indeed, he doesn't seem to have left much of a legacy in that regard. Pianists still use the piano as a mix between a percussive and harmonic instrument, nobody seems capable of making the instrument speak the way Liszt did (the exception being, perhaps, Debussy). Of course, Chopin was still the greater genius for exploring the deepest regions of his soul rather then his finger tips.

The Bach pieces are nice, but they're also mix-&-match.  Almost doesn't matter which instrument they're played on.  The music sounds dandy on any instrument(s), but the music doesn't belong to any particular timbre.

Good grief, it appears you still have much learning to do. The music is simply too dense to be considered "dandy". Layers upon layers of musical ideas interlacing within minuscule spaces of time, inch after inch. Its almost inhuman. Plus each prelude employs so many forms and styles of the time, from french overtures to toccatas or even italian concertos, like the following: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bd_70ZI9hs

The level of greatness of this music is almost too much to handle. One could listen to it for decades and still find something new, something fresh. 
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 08, 2010, 04:53:41 PM
Poor Liszt. First his thread is hijacked by Wagner, then by Bach ; )

Someday, we'll get to talk about Liszt here.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 04:56:41 PM
Speaking of Liszt (ho hey!) i have a recording of his later works arranged for orchestra:

http://www.amazon.com/Franz-Liszt-Orchestrated-conducted-Selmeczi/dp/B000066SKQ/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1270778156&sr=8-5

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31ESPQAZ2VL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Quite an interesting take.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on April 08, 2010, 05:21:54 PM
Ho, but radical harmony isn't the only thing that characterizes the music of Schoenberg (Schoenberg's harmony being derived mostly from Mahler anyway). Extremely tight counterpoint and what can only be referred to as " intervallic syncopation" are also employed profusely, and he took that from Brahms.  Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAERQ92DOOQ

Don't mind the performance, focus on the vertical elements. Without this level of vertical sophistication the works of Schoenberg wouldn't be anywhere near as difficult to listen to, extreme harmony and all.
I'm not really sure what you mean by "intervallic syncopation"...

"Harmony mostly derived from Mahler..." ummm I do hear little influences that might be from Mahler, but the only connection I get from those two are in terms of orchestration. Schoenberg was on the cutting edge of orchestration at his time- definitely Mahler and Strauss would be his two influences. To me, the scoring for Mahler's 7th and Schoenberg's Variations for Orchestra give away the influence.

As for harmony, Mahler had moments where he pushed harmony to its limits, but Liszt did that more than Mahler ever did, 20+ years earlier- even Wagner pushes the boundaries more than Mahler did. I think it would be quite a jump from Mahler to atonal music, and even if you did jump, it would be from something like Mahler's 6th or 10th to Berg's 3 Orchestral Pieces. I don't hear anything by Mahler that foreshadows Schoenberg's op.11.


Did i? I have a terrible memory, i don't quite remember what i may have said in that regard.
Found it!  8)
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7504.msg186846.html#msg186846
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 06:16:27 PM
I'm not really sure what you mean by "intervallic syncopation"...

If you think about it, counterpoint is essentially a form of harmony based on intervals. Consequently, any form of syncopation applied to a contrapuntal voice can be considered intervallic.

I think it would be quite a jump from Mahler to atonal music, and even if you did jump, it would be from something like Mahler's 6th or 10th to Berg's 3 Orchestral Pieces. I don't hear anything by Mahler that foreshadows Schoenberg's op.11.

True. Mahler himself was a little dubious of the direction pioneered by Schoenberg and would have probably refrained from going that far, had he lived longer. However, there is a quality to Schoenberg's use of harmony as an expressive tool (as opposed to a purely technical device) which i found profoundly Mahlerian. The relationship between the two composers was a deeply spiritual one (hence, the saint remark) rather then a technical one.

Of course, ultimately, the chief element of Schienberg's method was not harmonic chromaticism per-se, nor was it really about the emancipation of dissonance, as he so vehemently stated. The revolutionary element in his music is the concept of the klangfarbenmelodie (tone-color melody). It is this idea, above all, that defines the second Viennese school (Webern in particular), and this too is essentially an off-shoot of the way Mahler often relied on tone color as a mean for melodic and harmonic development, all though there is a giant leap from that to using harmonics the same way the other used pitches. Indeed, Mahler was somewhat dubious of this approach when Schoenberg confided with him about it, though he eventually employed his own personal variant in his ninth symphony. Thus, the relationship between the two composers is one of thesis and antithesis, one being a conservative modernist, the other being a revolutionary one. Schoenberg's progressive ideas of course came from a whole different type of sources, from Wagner, to Strauss to Debussy to Reger and so forth.

Found it!  8)
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7504.msg186846.html#msg186846

Ha yes. My objection there was on Schoenberg's choice of words. There's nothing inherently progressive in what Brahms was doing, even though it influenced so many 20th century composers. Listen to Enescu for instance. He employed the very same contrapuntal approach that influenced Schoenberg but there's nothing inherently "progressive" about the music of the first. What Brahms was doing almost harks back to the rhythmical sophistication of the late medieval and Renaissance polyphonists. I think ultimately, what Schoenberg really saw about Brahms was the severe rigor of his music, the same type of rigor necessary to bring out the klangfarbenmelodie to its full fruition (a type of rigor which Webern would explore to its ultimate level of degree). There is no such rigor in the works of either Wagner or Liszt, no matter how harmonically advanced they may be.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 08, 2010, 06:35:30 PM
BTW, since you were speaking of Schoenberg's piano works before, i would recommend the following recording by Paul Jacobs, assuming you are not already aware of it:

http://www.amazon.com/Arnold-Schoenberg-Piano-Music/dp/B000005IVQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1270783918&sr=8-1

The ability of this pianist to resolve all the rigorous array of overtones is remarkable. That he makes it sound so fresh and spontaneous is amazing. 
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Saul on April 08, 2010, 08:40:29 PM
I remember listening to the first piano concerto of Liszt when I was 13 or 14 and I was astonished. From the first listening I went and listened to it for a few weeks almost every day. I totally loved it and was amazed by it. Liszt was way more modern for his time, but in a good postive way... hey if he wouldnt have been modern, he wouldnt have been Liszt.

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Florestan on April 08, 2010, 10:29:32 PM
Quote from: Xah Lee
Liszt is the father of impressionism — a entire genre of piano music, of which Brahms, Bizet, Rachmaninov, Ravel, Debussy all kowtow and pay homage.

A real gem, if ever there was one.

Impressionism a genre of piano music? Brahms, Bizet and Rachmaninoff impressionists?
Bizet a composer of piano music?   :o :o :o

Somebody please send this guy to school!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Ten thumbs on April 09, 2010, 03:15:31 AM

The music is simply too dense to be considered "dandy". Layers upon layers of musical ideas interlacing within minuscule spaces of time, inch after inch. Its almost inhuman.

The level of greatness of this music is almost too much to handle. One could listen to it for decades and still find something new, something fresh.

Of Bach, and on the whole I wouldn't disagree. It's just a pity that you seem incapable of appreciating this density in the music of the many other composers who achieved it. Yes, even Liszt was capable of it and, on the whole, I find it extremely human, thank goodness!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 09, 2010, 04:24:20 AM
Quote
Poor Liszt. First his thread is hijacked by Wagner, then by Bach ; )

Someday, we'll get to talk about Liszt here.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: MN Dave on April 09, 2010, 04:25:35 AM
I don't think Liszt often makes favorite composer lists.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 09, 2010, 04:41:19 AM
We could at least talk about him in a thread bearing his name, rather than indulge a habitual disruptor in his insistence on discussing Composers of Geeeenius instead.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on April 09, 2010, 05:30:55 AM
Well, I'm going to try to veer the conversation towards 'Rare Pieces', 'Late Pieces', and 'Leslie Howard'.



I'm trying to avert a full-blown Lisztomania, so I'm trying to see if there are any 'perfect' recitals for me. I'm trying to avoid the Sonata, but that seems improbable.

I've seem three different cds of 'Late Pieces'. Does anyone have Howard's measure here? Reviewers say Howard starts pieces at full throttle, but then poops out half way through. Pollini's recital fills up the Sonata with all Late Pieces. There is a 'Late' recital on Astree, and then, another small label no name.

Anyone have any Howard 'must haves'?



Is there a site where Liszt's piano music is separated by category, or some way of making the output easier to digest by sight? Trust me, if I can't get any help I'll have to post piece-by-piec e, haha. Remember the Haydn SQ Thread? Hahaha!! No, I'm just kidding, haha.

Are Brendel's 'Annees 1-2' really not that good? Bad sound?



Oh, how many questions I have!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 09, 2010, 05:39:04 AM
Well, I'm going to try to veer the conversation towards 'Rare Pieces', 'Late Pieces', and 'Leslie Howard'.

One of my favorite discs is a collection of late works, most of them cello & piano, played on an Érard piano of Liszt's day.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: DavidW on April 09, 2010, 05:46:19 AM
I'm trying to avert a full-blown Lisztomania, so I'm trying to see if there are any 'perfect' recitals for me. I'm trying to avoid the Sonata, but that seems improbable.

Why?  Don't like it or because you're satisfied?  Richter's performance is stunning some of the best music making you can find IMO. 0:)


Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on April 09, 2010, 05:56:30 AM
Why?  Don't like it or because you're satisfied?  Richter's performance is stunning some of the best music making you can find IMO. 0:)

I'm just trying to keep different 'forms' separate. You won't catch me mixing up my food on my plate, eeewwww!! I just want all morose, dark Liszt on one album, as if Poe were the programmer.

I am way out on my Liszt-listening. I've been on this path before, and I wish I hadn't dumped all my piano cds. I just wish the library had a selection of Howard. All I have from the library now are the Brendel Sonata recital (Philips) and the Bolet 'various' one cd (Decca), nothing rare.

Ah, another rabbit hole,... and just when I got out of that 'pre-1800 SQ' phase. THEY PULL YOU BACK IN!!!

......aaaaAAAAAHHHHHHHHHhhhhh......
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: DavidW on April 09, 2010, 06:02:46 AM
I'm just trying to keep different 'forms' separate. You won't catch me mixing up my food on my plate, eeewwww!! I just want all morose, dark Liszt on one album, as if Poe were the programmer.

Oh that's cool, understood. :)  What other dark Liszt pieces would you rec?  That's the Liszt I love. :)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 09, 2010, 06:08:39 AM
Is there a site where Liszt's piano music is separated by category, or some way of making the output easier to digest by sight?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Franz_Liszt_%28S.1_%E2%80%93_S.350%29

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 09, 2010, 06:27:24 AM
Oh that's cool, understood. :)  What other dark Liszt pieces would you rec?  That's the Liszt I love. :)

La gondola lugubre, of course (in its various forms) . . . the Csárdás macabre and the Valses oubliées, pronto!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: DavidW on April 09, 2010, 07:20:10 AM
Thanks dude. :)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 09, 2010, 09:37:14 AM
Another great recording of his sonata not many people probably heard about:

http://www.amazon.com/Liszt-Sonata-minor-Sonetti-Petrarca/dp/B0000026Q5/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1270838182&sr=8-1

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410gzsIAfWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on April 09, 2010, 10:53:18 AM
If you think about it, counterpoint is essentially a form of harmony based on intervals. Consequently, any form of syncopation applied to a contrapuntal voice can be considered intervallic.
Yep.


True. Mahler himself was a little dubious of the direction pioneered by Schoenberg and would have probably refrained from going that far, had he lived longer. However, there is a quality to Schoenberg's use of harmony as an expressive tool (as opposed to a purely technical device) which i found profoundly Mahlerian. The relationship between the two composers was a deeply spiritual one (hence, the saint remark) rather then a technical one.
Kinda like how some guitarists are inspired by and like to summon the spirit of Hendrix, even though their music sounds nothing like his, I guess...

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 09, 2010, 03:25:38 PM
Kinda like how some guitarists are inspired by and like to summon the spirit of Hendrix, even though their music sounds nothing like his, I guess...

Haha, maybe.  ;D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on April 09, 2010, 08:44:24 PM
Rob Newman's still hard at work on his book. I do believe that he believes that Liszt actually wrote the music attributed to him,... but I still have my doubts.

...as for Stockhausen...

Rob Newman...Liszt...Stockhausen

Can't you see the connection? 8)
Title: Liszt's Recital of the Strange & Macabre
Post by: snyprrr on April 09, 2010, 08:56:23 PM
Let us find a pianist, and get a recording situation, and make an album along these lines:



Apparitions
Csardas macabre
Marche funebre (153 or 226)
Mephisto polka
Valse melancolique

...perhaps along with the standard 'Late' fare:



Lugubre Gondola I & II
Unstern sinistre
Nuages gris
En reve
RW-Venezia
Schlagflos(huh?)
Romance oubliee
Valse oubliees
Trauer vorspeil & Trauermarsche
Receuillements
Am Grabe RW



...perhaps one or two of the Etudes?...



Any ideas? I've only got two cds on hand :-[ ::) ;) ;D



Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: knight66 on April 09, 2010, 09:28:46 PM
I have removed the querulous exchanges where certain people...you know who you are....descended to personal remarks. I dunno what it is about Liszt that prompts these little outbreaks; but it confirms me in my long held opinion; to pretty much keep away from him.

Let's not progress through the Mods having to deal with this through PMs, then PMs with threats, then public executions. How about you guys stop pulling one another's hair.

Now, is there more to be said about Liszt?

Knight
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: zamyrabyrd on April 09, 2010, 10:34:26 PM
What do y'all think of the Symphonic Poems and Oratorios? Liszt expended an immense effort on them in the latter part of his career.  They were not exactly appreciated in his lifetime and pretty much ignored in ours.

The problem with the orchestral works, as I see it, have to do with "program music" that offers a bit by bit description of the subject. Berlioz' orchestral works come to mind but are more daring (in my opinion) than a hybrid of symphony and tonal poem which Liszt's works seem to resemble.

Liszt's piano works though are brilliantly innovative and push the boundaries of technique, form and harmony. I think his best works are for this instrument and/or combined with orchestra.

ZB
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Ten thumbs on April 10, 2010, 02:02:52 AM

Liszt's piano works though are brilliantly innovative and push the boundaries of technique, form and harmony. I think his best works are for this instrument and/or combined with orchestra.

ZB
I believe that if you actually examined the forms used by Liszt in his tone poems instead of falling for the pretense that they have none, you would be surprised.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on April 10, 2010, 02:38:41 AM
What do y'all think of the Symphonic Poems and Oratorios? Liszt expended an immense effort on them in the latter part of his career.  They were not exactly appreciated in his lifetime and pretty much ignored in ours.

The problem with the orchestral works, as I see it, have to do with "program music" that offers a bit by bit description of the subject. Berlioz' orchestral works come to mind but are more daring (in my opinion) than a hybrid of symphony and tonal poem which Liszt's works seem to resemble.
I find them to be surprisingly good each time I hear them. I go in expecting vulgar orchestration, but there generally isn't. Structure in a classical sense is a problem, but if this craving is abandoned they become rather magnificent creations, and highly operatic. I haven't bothered reading the programmes, though.

A problem I find is that when I think of my favourites, I simply think of the most performed ones (excluding Les Préludes for already having "made it" to a major concert work): Mazeppa and Tasso are the biggies. There doesn't seem to be much of a decline in quality beyond the well-known works though. Héroïde Funèbre has a Berliozian atmosphere, Hunnenschlacht is great fun, and Orpheus really grabbed me when hearing a good recording of it (Nikolai Golovanov on Great Conductors of the 20th Century).

The very obscure ones seem to be Ce qu'on entend sur la montagne and Von der Wiege bis zum Grabe, which incidentely seem to be his first and last compositions in the form. The last is of note for being composed around 25 years after the others. I don't remember much about these two - definitely something for the listening pile.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: kishnevi on April 10, 2010, 04:49:20 PM
I find them to be surprisingly good each time I hear them. I go in expecting vulgar orchestration, but there generally isn't. Structure in a classical sense is a problem, but if this craving is abandoned they become rather magnificent creations, and highly operatic. I haven't bothered reading the programmes, though.

A problem I find is that when I think of my favourites, I simply think of the most performed ones (excluding Les Préludes for already having "made it" to a major concert work): Mazeppa and Tasso are the biggies. There doesn't seem to be much of a decline in quality beyond the well-known works though. Héroïde Funèbre has a Berliozian atmosphere, Hunnenschlacht is great fun, and Orpheus really grabbed me when hearing a good recording of it (Nikolai Golovanov on Great Conductors of the 20th Century).

The very obscure ones seem to be Ce qu'on entend sur la montagne and Von der Wiege bis zum Grabe, which incidentely seem to be his first and last compositions in the form. The last is of note for being composed around 25 years after the others. I don't remember much about these two - definitely something for the listening pile.

There is a newly released Decca box (4 CDs) of the complete symphonic poems (Haitink/LPO) which is relatively inexpensive and, on my first listen last week, sounds reasonably good.  It's probably a good way to get the not so well known works as a group, and the liner notes, while not diffuse, give a bit of information on the literary or artistic source for each of the works. 

I've also got a recording by Immersaal and Anima Aeterna on period instruments that includes Les Preludes, Mazeppa, Totentanz (the piano is an 1880s Erard), two of the Hungarian Rhapsodies, and From the Cradle to the Grave that might be of interest to you if you don't feel the need for a complete set.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on April 11, 2010, 06:17:48 PM
There is a newly released Decca box (4 CDs) of the complete symphonic poems (Haitink/LPO) which is relatively inexpensive and, on my first listen last week, sounds reasonably good.  It's probably a good way to get the not so well known works as a group, and the liner notes, while not diffuse, give a bit of information on the literary or artistic source for each of the works. 

I've also got a recording by Immersaal and Anima Aeterna on period instruments that includes Les Preludes, Mazeppa, Totentanz (the piano is an 1880s Erard), two of the Hungarian Rhapsodies, and From the Cradle to the Grave that might be of interest to you if you don't feel the need for a complete set.

This set looks attractive, but I have Masur's Liszt recordings with the Gawandhausorchester (EMI recordings) on a pair of 2cd sets.  Not identical repertoire, but a fair bit of overlap.  Anyone here head both sets who can characterize the difference?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 11, 2010, 07:15:47 PM
Personally i've been pretty happy with Arpad Joo. Not bad for a recording which i bought without any prior knowledge or insight. My favored Tone Poem is of course the last one.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: kishnevi on April 11, 2010, 07:34:04 PM
This set looks attractive, but I have Masur's Liszt recordings with the Gawandhausorchester (EMI recordings) on a pair of 2cd sets.  Not identical repertoire, but a fair bit of overlap.  Anyone here head both sets who can characterize the difference?

The Haitink set consists of all thirteen symphonic poems with Mephisto Waltz No. 1 as filler.
CD 1
Ce qu'on entend sur la montagne
Tasso
Les Preludes
CD 2
Orpheus
Prometheus
Mazeppa
Festklange
CD 3
Heriode funebre
Hungaria
Hamlet
CD 4
Hunnenschlacht
Die Ideale
Von der Wiege bis zum Grabe
Mephisto Waltz No. 1


Is there any of this that's not on the Masur set?  Or anything other than Mephisto Waltz 2 that's on Masur but not on Haitink?

I have some of the Masur on an EMI budget release: Tasso, Les Preludes, Orpheus, Mazeppa, Mephisto Waltz No. 2--which is how I know the Waltz is part of his set.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on April 11, 2010, 08:27:23 PM
Actually, there is a 5CD set from Masur which has the 13 symphonic poems, plus Dante and Faust symphonies, and the two episodes from Faust.  The four discs I have omit some of the symphonic poems in favor of the Faust symphony.  I'm mainly curious as to whether the performances are noticeably different in the two sets.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 12, 2010, 01:31:39 AM
Is there any of this that's not on the Masur set?  Or anything other than Mephisto Waltz 2 that's on Masur but not on Haitink?

The only thing not on Masur's set is Mephisto Waltz No.1. Included in the 7CD Masur box but not Haitink's are these works:

Mephisto Waltz #2
Faust Symphony
Dante Symphony
2 episodes from Faust
The Piano Concertos with Béroff
Schubert Wanderer Fantasy trans. by Liszt for piano and orchestra
Weber Polonaise brilliante trans. by Liszt for piano and orchestra
Fantasie über ungarische Volksmelodien for piano and orchestra
Fantasie über Motive aus Beethovens Ruinen von Athens for piano and orchestra
Grande Fantasie symphonique sur des thèmes de "Leilo" de Berlioz for piano and orchestra
Malédiction for piano and orchestra
Totentanz, Paraphrase über "Dies Irae" for piano and orchestra

Although I own the Masur box, and it has much more than Haitink, I ordered Haitink because, if I recall correctly, his cycle of tone poems was highly praised when it was first released. In any case I like the music well enough to want multiple versions and Haitink is dirt cheap (16 Euro at Amazon).

Sarge
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 12, 2010, 02:41:26 AM
I've been enchanted by a Noseda/BBC Phil disc with the Faust Symphony (version sans chœurs) and Von der Wiege bis zum Grabe, which was a gift from an old friend.  So . . . I'm heading to a nearby shop today to fetch in the Dante Symphony by the same forces.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on April 12, 2010, 09:55:48 AM
A listen to Masur's recording of the Heroide Funebre was very satisfying.  Beautiful, vivid sonorities from the Gewanthaus orchestra, vigorous articulation, very good late analog sound (a bit on the close side).  I'm beginning to regret I only have the pair of 2-fers and not one of the bigger box sets.  Haitink is seeming superfluous at this point. 

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on April 17, 2010, 03:23:05 PM
Been listening to more of the Masur/Gewandhaus recordings of the Liszt symphonic poems (Hungeria, 2 episodes from Lenau's Faust and Prometheus) and continue to be impressed, with the works and the performances.  The recordings are uncharactistically vivid for EMI, and the the orchestra produces beautiful sounds under Masur.  The works are a lot of fun, with orchestration which is often brilliant if not subtle, arresting themes, interesting development.  Perhaps the biggest surprise is that these pieces are not rhapsodic or meandering, but generally have a clear musical structure.  First class works, I'd say.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: abidoful on April 18, 2010, 12:44:19 AM
I'm now exploring Liszt's chamber stuff  (I enjoyd many happy moment's in  my teens with the solo piano works- and later with the Faust Symhony) 8)

Works for violin and piano: two duos (in c-sharp, + the "grand duo concertant").



Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on April 18, 2010, 02:58:48 AM
I'm now exploring Liszt's chamber stuff  (I enjoyd many happy moment's in  my teens with the solo piano works- and later with the Faust Symhony) 8)

Works for violin and piano: two duos (in c-sharp, + the "grand duo concertant").
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41w6YIYPrjL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Charles-Valentin-Alkan-Concert-Lugubre-Gondole/dp/B001927MLI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1271591776&sr=1-1)

Liszt's chamber music is patchy, often transcriptions of other works, but I found much to enjoy on this disc, which shares its programming with various complimentary works by Alkan.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on April 18, 2010, 03:23:05 AM
An excellent disc, Sara!  I didn't know you had that 'un.

(Of course, there's much I don't know about your music collection
; )
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on April 18, 2010, 03:55:18 AM
I don't own half as much as I listen to - being cheap and poor is the pits :P
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on April 30, 2010, 03:10:13 PM
An orchestral transcription of Liszt's Nuages Gris.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9rFJ_steiU

sounds ultra-Second Viennese, doesn't it?  :D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Dax on April 30, 2010, 11:18:26 PM
There are certainly some interesting sounds  but it's a ludicrous version which doesn't bear too much relation to the original - which has served merely as a launching pad for what we have here. There are added lines which really don't work. And the mega-slow speed is ridiculous.

Here's Holliger's version of Unstern which is rather less preposterous, yet still wrong-headed. Seems as though we need to have as much contrast as possible rather than establishing an insistent resonance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1_njfYoXp0&NR=1
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: greg on May 01, 2010, 03:50:41 AM
I do prefer the piano version, though the orchestration was interesting. The piano version seems to live up to its title better, too.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Saul on June 13, 2010, 01:05:33 PM
This is just too good...

http://www.youtube.com/v/jLHU2ES51uw
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: jlaurson on November 28, 2010, 09:53:35 AM
Complete (original) Liszt on the Piano... long, long before Howard ever did it:

Article about France Clidat and Decca's re-issue of those recordings for the Liszt-year: ( in French )
http://www.lemonde.fr/culture/article/2010/11/27/l-integrale-de-liszt-pour-piano-reeditee-dans-la-douleur_1445818_3246.html (http://www.lemonde.fr/culture/article/2010/11/27/l-integrale-de-liszt-pour-piano-reeditee-dans-la-douleur_1445818_3246.html)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GStp0uy2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Liszt Ferenc
Complete (original) Piano Works
France Clidat
Decca, 14 CDs
(40 Euros) (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B003W16T0Y?ie=UTF8&tag=weta909fr-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1642&creative=19458&creativeASIN=B003W16T0Y)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Bogey on January 28, 2011, 04:39:10 PM
Picked up a piece of vinyl today still in the shrinkwrap:

(http://www.clapia.com/sub/prodimg/P0008322.gif)

SIDE 1 Stereo
En Reve-Nocturne
Ballade No.2, b minor
Sunt Iacrymae rerum, en mode hongrois(from the 3rd Year, Annees de Pelerinage)
Abschied

(Recorded in Los Angeles, September 1974)

SIDE 2 Mono
Legendes
St. Francois de Paule marchant sur les flots


About the recording (from the web):

Liszt was not only one of the greatest teachers of his century, but was also one of the two most influential performers, a supreme virtuoso who revolutionized the keyboard with his bombastic playing. He was also considered the greatest improviser of all time, unable to resist recomposing even a new score as he sight-read it for the very first time. The most extraordinary evidence of Lisztian playing arose nearly a century after his death in a most unlikely guise. Ervin Nyiregyhazi, born in Budapest in 1903, became enthralled and obsessed with Liszt. Those who had known the master lauded the teenager as his spiritual heir. But after a series of brilliant debuts and ecstatic reviews of his mesmerizing playing, Nyiregyhazi dropped out of sight. Fifty years and nine marriages later he resurfaced in 1973 in a Los Angeles flophouse. Having barely touched a keyboard in decades, he was coaxed into a recital in a local church, part of which (two Liszt "Legendes") was taped on a cheap cassette deck. Issued on Desmar LP IPA 111, this is one of the most intense performances ever recorded, with a power and a spirituality beyond anything else in the realm of modern experience. Following his rediscovery, Nyiregyhazi went on to became a critical darling and cut several studio albums, but none approached what he had achieved in that one astounding concert in which he resurrected the spirit of Liszt just once in our time.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: abidoful on January 29, 2011, 02:30:12 AM
I've heard Nyiregyhazi playing Mazeppa, it's on YouTube and it's WOW. I mean charming, not ugly as the piece usually sounds!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: OzRadio on February 02, 2011, 05:10:13 PM
My Liszt collection is small; his symphonic poems, piano concertos, and piano sonata in B minor. Is anyone collecting the Naxos series of piano music, 30+ discs at this point?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on February 02, 2011, 07:20:50 PM
Now that the Hyperion set has been boxed, it would probably be more cost-efficient (and in-depth) to go for that one. Especially now that much the original issues will probably go to clearance outlets. The few discs I've heard from the Naxos series have been good to very good, although Hyperion's documentation is better.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on February 02, 2011, 08:10:35 PM
Now that the Hyperion set has been boxed, it would probably be more cost-efficient (and in-depth) to go for that one. Especially now that much the original issues will probably go to clearance outlets. The few discs I've heard from the Naxos series have been good to very good, although Hyperion's documentation is better.

Hyperion is also selling the individual volumes from their web site at half-price at the moment.  The megabox is 1.5 pounds per disc at mdt, but there are a lot of discs in there with really obscure music.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Mirror Image on February 02, 2011, 08:18:16 PM
Yes, I'm going to buy this when it comes out:



99 CDs....wow!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on February 02, 2011, 08:54:40 PM
Yes, I'm going to buy this when it comes out:



99 CDs....wow!

Can you see everyone's eyes getting big? :o mmm,... color coded! :P
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: abidoful on February 03, 2011, 03:06:35 AM
I've heard Nyiregyhazi playing Mazeppa, it's on YouTube and it's WOW. I mean charming, not ugly as the piece usually sounds!
Just want to make it clear that I do not think that Mazeppa is ugly---it's not, I have just heard people playing it ugly.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: marvinbrown on February 03, 2011, 04:36:10 AM
Yes, I'm going to buy this when it comes out:



99 CDs....wow!

  WOW indeed! That looks delicious!  I too would be interested in exploring this set!

  marvin
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on February 03, 2011, 04:43:18 AM
I'm on a permanent mission going through that set in the piecemeal parts I have access to, and I have to say that the variability of Liszt's piano music is overstated. There are few duds, although a lot of it isn't crowd-pleasing, or particularly ambitious. If you think you'll enjoy the box, you are sure to love it. If you think you'll dislike the lesser works, then you've already convinced yourself you won't.

Also overstated are Howard's "flaws". He's not the most scintillating pianist, and in the major works recorded over and over there are bound to be many equally good or better interps, but his technical skills are remarkably fine in even the most obscure work - it's lucky that such a good pianist would commit to this project.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 03, 2011, 07:49:19 AM
I'm on a permanent mission going through that set in the piecemeal parts I have access to, and I have to say that the variability of Liszt's piano music is overstated. There are few duds, although a lot of it isn't crowd-pleasing, or particularly ambitious. If you think you'll enjoy the box, you are sure to love it. If you think you'll dislike the lesser works, then you've already convinced yourself you won't.

Also overstated are Howard's "flaws". He's not the most scintillating pianist, and in the major works recorded over and over there are bound to be many equally good or better interps, but his technical skills are remarkably fine in even the most obscure work - it's lucky that such a good pianist would commit to this project.
Just an FYI - I noticed that MDT will have the individual releases on sale for much of 2011 (as will Hyperion, but MDT is cheaper). Of course, Berkshire has a number of the releases as well, but they are hit and miss on what they have. I enjoy the ones I own, though I often wish Howard had injected a bit more personality/flair.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on February 03, 2011, 10:58:51 AM
Just an FYI - I noticed that MDT will have the individual releases on sale for much of 2011 (as will Hyperion, but MDT is cheaper). Of course, Berkshire has a number of the releases as well, but they are hit and miss on what they have. I enjoy the ones I own, though I often wish Howard had injected a bit more personality/flair.

I'm afraid I may have to get that colossal thing.  The mdt price is good but the shipping charge is an impressive 38 pounds (about $60).  I'll keep an eye on Amazon marketplace.  Amazon.com proper is discounting the pre-order from $400 to $310 but I suspect it will go lower when it is released and the marketplace sellers can jump in.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on February 04, 2011, 09:03:33 AM
Also overstated are Howard's "flaws". He's not the most scintillating pianist, and in the major works recorded over and over there are bound to be many equally good or better interps, but his technical skills are remarkably fine in even the most obscure work - it's lucky that such a good pianist would commit to this project.

Listened to a few excepts on Hyperion's web site, and I must say I find Howard competent but not particularly thrilling.  Did a side by side comparison with a few tracks on the Jorge Bolet Double Decca and Bolet was way more engaging to me.  At this point, 99 CDs of Howard doesn't sound that attractive.   :P

I wonder why Hyperion chose to undertake this project with a single pianist, rather than assigning different volumes to the various wonderful pianists they have under contract (Howard, Demidenko, Stephen Hough, Piers Lane, Hamelin, maybe even Angela Hewitt would have tried her hand at it). 
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on February 04, 2011, 09:19:58 AM
Listened to a few excepts on Hyperion's web site, and I must say I find Howard competent but not particularly thrilling.  Did a side by side comparison with a few tracks on the Jorge Bolet Double Decca and Bolet was way more engaging to me.  At this point, 99 CDs of Howard doesn't sound that attractive.   :P

I wonder why Hyperion chose to undertake this project with a single pianist, rather than assigning different volumes to the various wonderful pianists they have under contract (Howard, Demidenko, Stephen Hough, Piers Lane, Hamelin, maybe even Angela Hewitt would have tried her hand at it).

I think that's kind of unfair, as Bolet is as good as Liszt playing gets. I can't think of anybody who equals - let alone beats - him in the Années de pèlerinage. To expect the best interpreter in the whole world for such a traversal is a bit too optimistic :P The Howard box is 100% for the lesser known works (i.e. the 85 other CDs after the greatest hits), and alongside that the Bolet box on Decca makes the ideal supplement.

It would've been interesting to see what other pianists could have done, but there is a fundamental problem - pianists like Demidenko, Hewitt and such have limited repertoires. I doubt they include much Liszt at all, let alone the lesser works. Howard's affinity for the composer must've made the choice of him obvious - although I agree, I would imagine that Hyperion would've hoped he could have wrung that last little juice out of the pieces, but given how "inside" Liszt's style he is, I'm not sure whether the results of using other pianists would've beaten the strong but unspectacular consistency that Howard brings. Simply put - few other pianists of his caliber, let alone higher, give a damn about learning such obscure music. I really admire the labour of love aspect of the whole project, and I'm not sure whether my opinion of the recordings is compromised by this feeling, but I definitely get a reoccurring vibe of Howard enjoying presenting each of these pieces as well as he can - it feels meticulous, which I suppose could also come across as drab. No doubt each piece could be improved upon by a performer focusing more closely on a select few works, but even now the series has completed, are there really many professional pianists out there who want to play this music?

Woah, I'm sounding all defensive ;D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on February 04, 2011, 09:26:00 AM
I think that's kind of unfair, as Bolet is as good as Liszt playing gets. I can't think of anybody who equals - let alone beats - him in the Années de pèlerinage. To expect the best interpreter in the whole world for such a traversal is a bit too optimistic :P The Howard box is 100% for the lesser known works (i.e. the 85 other CDs after the greatest hits), and alongside that the Bolet box on Decca makes the ideal supplement.

It would've been interesting to see what other pianists could have done, but there is a fundamental problem - pianists like Demidenko, Hewitt and such have limited repertoires. I doubt they include much Liszt at all, let alone the lesser works. Howard's affinity for the composer must've made the choice of him obvious - although I agree, I would imagine that Hyperion would've hoped he could have wrung that last little juice out of the pieces, but given how "inside" Liszt's style he is, I'm not sure whether the results of using other pianists would've beaten the strong but unspectacular consistency that Howard brings. Simply put - few other pianists of his caliber, let alone higher, give a damn about learning such obscure music. I really admire the labour of love aspect of the whole project, and I'm not sure whether my opinion of the recordings is compromised by this feeling, but I definitely get a reoccurring vibe of Howard enjoying presenting each of these pieces as well as he can - it feels meticulous, which I suppose could also come across as drab. No doubt each piece could be improved upon by a performer focusing more closely on a select few works, but even now the series has completed, are there really many professional pianists out there who want to play this music?

Woah, I'm sounding all defensive ;D

I suppose that is true, I don't know how hard it would have been to convince other pianists adopt a moderate sized chunk of obscure Liszt repertoire.  And it would have been unfair to expect Howard to do the obscure parts and give the gems to others.  Oh well, I definitely have to get the Bolet box, though.

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: RJR on February 12, 2011, 08:36:18 AM
I hate to split hares, (http://www.fastcharacters.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/famous-cartoon-character-bugs-bunny.jpg)

but the term  is SUPER Genius. 

And, by following that line of thought, Verdi would be a SUPER Genius by association, since he wrote the Anvil Chorus.
Split hares? Good one!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: RJR on February 12, 2011, 08:44:23 AM
To Jowcol,
Don't put down Bach too much for composing to order every week, he had many mouths to feed.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: The new erato on February 27, 2011, 06:46:07 AM
Strangely enough in this anniversary year, I've received notification that this disc is no longer available:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Cduw5iNiL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on February 27, 2011, 03:02:36 PM
Strangely enough in this anniversary year, I've received notification that this disc is no longer available:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Cduw5iNiL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Oh, that is a pity! A lovely disc.
 
I've been revisiting the Rapsodies hongroises of late, and (truth to tell, much as I expected) I find there is more variety and creative musical intelligence baked in there, than many give credit for.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2011, 03:12:53 PM
Oh, that is a pity! A lovely disc.
 
I've been revisiting the Rapsodies hongroises of late, and (truth to tell, much as I expected) I find there is more variety and creative musical intelligence baked in there, than many give credit for.

Well, of course we don't discuss versions here, I know, but Karl, this is a very nice disk of 6 of the Rapsodies hongroises, which I have been enjoying for years.




8)


----------------
Now playing:
Glazunov Op 14 Two Pieces for Orchestra  #1 in D - 'Idyll'
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on February 27, 2011, 03:54:55 PM
Oh, you're talking the orchestrated versions of the Rapsodies, Gurn (not that there's aught wrong with 'em). Certainly, Iván Fischer would have my complete confidence.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2011, 04:41:24 PM
Oh, you're talking the orchestrated versions of the Rapsodies, Gurn (not that there's aught wrong with 'em). Certainly, Iván Fischer would have my complete confidence.

Certainly. I heard the piano versions once and didn't like them nearly as well. Fischer & Co. play the hell out of them here. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Glazunov Op 14 Two Pieces for Orchestra  #2 - 'Reverie Orientale'
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on February 27, 2011, 05:00:45 PM
FWIW, Gurn, the first I heard the piano solo version, I didn't much care for them, either . . . Even though the pianist was apparently Hungarian, and even though it was a Deutsche Gramophon recording.

I have since seen light, of course
; )
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on March 13, 2011, 09:27:15 AM
Just a reminder that the Liszt coverage on Wikipedia is really getting out of hand. It's making articles related to other composers look embarassingly poor. Check this one on a single tone poem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_pr%C3%A9ludes_%28Liszt%29

This is why I love the site, all it takes is a few dedicated people (who understand the framework of the site) to build and shepherd articles to produce something impossible to find elsewhere for free.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on March 14, 2011, 02:19:21 PM
Just a reminder that the Liszt coverage on Wikipedia is really getting out of hand. It's making articles related to other composers look embarassingly poor. Check this one on a single tone poem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_pr%C3%A9ludes_%28Liszt%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_pr%C3%A9ludes_%28Liszt%29)

This is why I love the site, all it takes is a few dedicated people (who understand the framework of the site) to build and shepherd articles to produce something impossible to find elsewhere for free.


Cast a quick glance - yes, that looks very professional and exhaustive! Les Préludes is a favourite of mine, so when I have some free time on my hands, I'll read the page with the requisite attention.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: RJR on March 26, 2011, 06:11:48 PM
Did Prokofiev ever look towards Liszt for inspiration?

I know, I'm a year late. Who cares? Bartok was inspired, even revered, Liszt.



Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: ibanezmonster on March 26, 2011, 06:42:49 PM
You might want to try writing outside the quotes. At first, I thought I wrote that second line, and I can't even quote what you just wrote.  :-\
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: ibanezmonster on March 26, 2011, 07:26:14 PM
Here's a site which is a bit too fanatical about Liszt, but has the praiseworthy aim of giving Liszt the credit he deserves for being one of the most influential and creative composers in the history of music (if not the most):

http://www.d-vista.com/OTHER/franzliszt.html

One good point it makes when comparing Beethoven's influence to Liszt's is that Beethoven's was in a long, straight line of tradition- when Liszt came around, though, he ended up being a main influence for many of the different schools and styles of music.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: The new erato on March 27, 2011, 02:50:12 AM
Did Prokofiev ever look towards Liszt for inspiration?


I know, I'm a year late. Who cares? Bartok was inspired, even revered, Liszt.
But then again, Bartok started out an Hungarian nationalist.

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Sid on May 07, 2011, 06:29:28 PM
I just listened to Liszt's Dante Symphony last night for the first time & reviewed it on the listening thread. I'm interested in what people think about this work, in particular about the opinion (or what I think as the misguided opinion) of some that it's somewhat inferior to his earlier Faust Symphony:


...I have read comments about the Dante Symphony judging it as being somewhat inferior to the Faust Symphony. Now that I've heard both, I think these opinions are utter rubbish. Both of these are amazing and very innovative works. I also don't agree with some people's opinions that Liszt was not a good orchestrator, or at least not as good as some others of his time. This is preposterous, especially considering that he influenced guys like Wagner, R. Strauss & Debussy in this regard. He could really equal them all, and then some. The last words I will give to another great composer of the time, Saint-Saens (quoted in the LP notes) who said at the time when he conducted an all-Liszt orchestral programme in Paris "The programme was comprised entirely of the orchestral works of Franz Liszt whom the world calls a great pianist in order to avoid acknowledging as one of the greatest composers of our time..."
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on May 07, 2011, 06:37:58 PM
Something about the perception of Dante as being inferior may be that the tone-row in Faust allows those who don't neccesseraly care for the music all that much to at least claim it to have some "significance" to musical history. Dante may be seen as the opposite, as the Magnificat setting is somewhat kitschy. But it's also an undeniably beautiful moment as well, more so than anything in Faust - I like both about equally although can't claim to listen to either all that often.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Sid on May 07, 2011, 11:38:16 PM
Something about the perception of Dante as being inferior may be that the tone-row in Faust allows those who don't neccesseraly care for the music all that much to at least claim it to have some "significance" to musical history. Dante may be seen as the opposite, as the Magnificat setting is somewhat kitschy. But it's also an undeniably beautiful moment as well, more so than anything in Faust - I like both about equally although can't claim to listen to either all that often.

Well, I just read the Wikipedia article about the Dante Symphony, and it says that there are a few 12 note rows throughout the work. Maybe this is harder to hear than in the Faust Symphony? I'm not sure, being only newly familiar to the Dante Symphony. In any case, it's probably much easier to see the row in the score rather than just hear it in the music without a score. I'm not really fixated on the row, but I can understand how this may have become a focus for musicians and musicologists later, particularly with regard to how music developed from the 1850's onwards.

Well, the Magnificat may sound "kitschy" and a bit cheesy to our ears, but I'm sure that it would have been one of the first times (if not the first) that harmonies from Renaissance music were made part of a symphony. I know that Liszt became highly acquainted with Palestrina's music later in Rome during the 1860's after he left Weimar (I have a rare LP recording of the "Szekszard" Mass for men's voices and organ that is highly reminiscent of Palestrina's harmonies). However, listening to the 2nd part of the Dante Symphony, I don't doubt that Liszt was aware of Palestrina's (& perhaps other Renaissance composers') music before he heard it in the flesh in the Vatican.

It actually took me 12-18 months to appreciate A Faust Symphony more deeply, but I think that I'll come round to the Dante Symphony much quicker now given my familiarity with the eariler symphony. What strikes me when listening to these symphonies is just how pared down and lean the orchestration often is, it sometimes sounds very un-Romantic and more Twentieth Century - Vaughan Williams, Sibelius, Debussy and even Messiaen sometimes come to mind. Maybe fleetingly amongst some of the more overtly Romantic sounding bits, but the innovation is still there, and can clearly be heard. Indeed, it is what kind of initially put me off the Faust Symphony, just like with my first encounter with Schoenberg's music, I found it a bit colourless and bland. Now, I can hear nothing but colour and subtlety in both Liszt's and Schoenberg's music. If Liszt's music struck me, a listener of today, as a bit difficult and harder to grasp than say Brahms or even Wagner, then I wonder what the audiences of his time would have thought? I'd say the majority of them would have simply balked in a big way. It's really only the fellow musicians like Saint-Saens, Berlioz and Wagner that recognised the genius of Liszt's writing in many of the genres he composed in - not only solo piano, but orchestral, choral and chamber music as well. Brahms even sent Liszt the manuscript of one of his piano concertos to apparently lure the Hungarian back onto the stage as a soloist after he'd been retired for many years in that department (eventually, one of Liszt's piano students premiered that Brahms concerto). In a way in his time, apart from having a kind of "film star" status as a pianist, he was really a "musician's musician" only fully appreciated by his peers. The majority of the public only knew him as a great & sensational pianist, but his peers had a much deeper understanding of his art in it's totality...
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 08, 2011, 10:24:37 AM
Listened to the Faust Symphony for the first time today, Masur's recording, which I found to be very good.  The outer movements had immediate appeal, and I like the fact that Liszt's themes are very recognizable, so it easy to feel that you have some ability to navigate the three rather long movements, even if further insights will come from repeated listenings.  My main gripe at this point is the choral ending to the final movement, which I find to be a cop-out.  I've read in various sets of notes that the original version had a purely orchestral finale (as well as lighter orchestration throughout) and I wish that someone would perform and record that version as well.

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: abidoful on May 09, 2011, 03:12:04 AM
Listened to the Faust Symphony for the first time today, Masur's recording, which I found to be very good.  The outer movements had immediate appeal, and I like the fact that Liszt's themes are very recognizable, so it easy to feel that you have some ability to navigate the three rather long movements, even if further insights will come from repeated listenings.  My main gripe at this point is the choral ending to the final movement, which I find to be a cop-out.  I've read in various sets of notes that the original version had a purely orchestral finale (as well as lighter orchestration throughout) and I wish that someone would perform and record that version as well.
I'm not sure if it has been recorded but I remember hearing on YouTube an purely instrumental version of the ending. But I must say the vocal version is just magnifiscent IMO!!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 09, 2011, 03:16:46 AM
Characteristic of Liszt, there are versions of the Faust Symphony with or without a chorus (and tenor solo) in the last movement.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2011, 04:17:13 AM
My main gripe at this point is the choral ending to the final movement, which I find to be a cop-out. 

Could you please elaborate a bit? What exactly do you feel it's wrong with the choral part?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 09, 2011, 06:18:58 AM
Could you please elaborate a bit? What exactly do you feel it's wrong with the choral part?

After 70 minutes of glorious tone-painting of the characters in the story I don't see why that extremely successful procedure has to stop and be replaced by recitation of an unintelligible text.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: edward on May 09, 2011, 06:34:09 AM
I tend to agree about the choral finale, which just doesn't seem to resolve all that's gone before (and what's gone before is IMO Liszt at his very finest). If I recall correctly, the choral finale was tacked on some time after the work was complete, at the suggestion of Carolyne zu Sayn-Wittgenstein.

I've thus far been totally unconvinced by the Dante Symphony, having heard Barenboim and Lopez-Cobos. (On the other hand, if my only encounter with the Faust Symphony had been the dire CSO/Solti one that's coupled with the Lopez-Cobos, I doubt if I'd ever have bothered listening to it again, so it could just be a case of bad performances.)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 09, 2011, 07:04:28 AM
I tend to agree about the choral finale, which just doesn't seem to resolve all that's gone before (and what's gone before is IMO Liszt at his very finest). If I recall correctly, the choral finale was tacked on some time after the work was complete, at the suggestion of Carolyne zu Sayn-Wittgenstein.

I've thus far been totally unconvinced by the Dante Symphony, having heard Barenboim and Lopez-Cobos. (On the other hand, if my only encounter with the Faust Symphony had been the dire CSO/Solti one that's coupled with the Lopez-Cobos, I doubt if I'd ever have bothered listening to it again, so it could just be a case of bad performances.)

I've also read suggestions that Wagner advised Liszt to revise the work.  It would wonderful to hear a recording of the original version, at the very least for contrast.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: abidoful on May 09, 2011, 09:13:35 AM
I find  the Choral ending glorious! Musically-dramatically-poetically. It brings Liszt in my mind closer to Wagner and there is a bass ostinato that resembles a motive from Parsifal :o
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 09, 2011, 09:14:36 AM
. . . It brings Liszt in my mind closer to Wagner . . . .

Not that that's a bad thing . . . .

; )
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 09, 2011, 09:15:15 AM
I find  the Choral ending glorious! Musically-dramatically-poetically. It brings Liszt in my mind closer to Wagner and there is a bass ostinato that resembles a motive from Parsifal :o

If you want something close to Wagner, why not listen to Wagner?  It is not like there ain't enough of it.   :-\
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: abidoful on May 09, 2011, 09:30:27 AM
If you want something close to Wagner, why not listen to Wagner?  It is not like there ain't enough of it.   :-\
In that ending of the Faust Symphony that is the closest he became to Wagner, that's all I'm saying.

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Sid on May 09, 2011, 08:20:51 PM
I'm actually quite happy with the choral/vocal endings of the two Liszt symphonies. In any case, they are not really the "meat" of these works, they're just there for climactic effect. I read that ideally, Liszt wanted these endings to be played, he probably only retained the alternative instrumental endings so the works could be performed in case there were'nt the vocalists available. For me say, going to a concert of one of these two Liszt symphonies without the vocal endings would be almost as bad as seeing Beethoven's 9th performed without the choral ending. Beethoven did originally compose an instrumental ending to that work, but he put it aside for the choral ending we have now, and some of the ideas of the original instrumental ending were recycled into the String Quartet Op. 132. So regarding both Liszt & Beethoven in these cases, an instrumental ending to these symphonies is like a "work in progress," the final versions are what the composers wanted audiences to hear...
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Mirror Image on May 09, 2011, 08:38:37 PM
Not that that's a bad thing . . . .

; )

Depends on how you look at it. ;)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 10, 2011, 01:31:12 AM
I'm actually quite happy with the choral/vocal endings of the two Liszt symphonies.

Likewise, I enjoyed that version of the finale of the Faust Symphony yesterday.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Luke on May 10, 2011, 01:49:37 AM
Well, I just love the Dante, and always have, for some of the reasons I outlined recently - in the 'favourite composer of two symphonies thread' IIRC. I don't care that it is unsubtle and unsophisticated compared to the Faust (which I love equally though less urgently and instinctively). You need to hear a recording which doesn't try to prettify it or clean it up, so that the incredible (for the time) and alien sonorities come to the fore - the amazing sound of that suffocated tam-tam (it's marked in the score, suffocato!), those intensely beautiful noises of the winds of Hell, listlessly, aimless gusting in a mournful 5/4; Paolo and Francesca's love, memorialized in that odd, disturbingly disembodied 7/4 cantilena. It's not subtle, but boy is it powerful. And then Purgatorio, again, that peculiar aimless, trudging, toiling feeling which I have never heard in any other music, that curious, labouring fugue, slowly reaching upwards into major regions...

As a boy I listened to my own old scuffed-up, knocked-about LP - Gyorgy Lehel's recording - repeatedly, loving hearing these strange, fabulous noises from a netherworld rising tinnily from the surface of that spinning disc, as if the music really was some kind of reportage from the front. Maybe my love of this piece is a personal affair; I know it has its detractors, but I wouldn't be without it. In the Lehel version if possible.

Both pieces, though, are priceless, to me. This is stil early Romanticism, naive, miscalculating sometimes, over-the-top, but truly daring and brave, not (like much late Romanticism) hiding behind misty swathes of memory and half-light, blurred tonal mixtures to the fore, but blazingly in-the-moment, colourful and not afraid to be ugly. Berlioz is the only other orchestral composer of the time who really does this (Wagner being in a different field, to my mind) and these two symphonies, the Liszt Symphonic poem plus the best of Berlioz are a special category for me.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Luke on May 10, 2011, 01:58:54 AM
the amazing sound of that suffocated tam-tam (it's marked in the score, suffocato!)...

Self-quoting, but acoustically/orchestrally it really is amazing, that pasage (the opening few pages of the score and also later). The sound of the tam-tam comes upon you loud and crushing, a sudden crescendo out of nowhere as the instrument's vibrations spread across its surface. But then, instantly, 'unnaturally' it vanishes, swallowed up by the sound being suffocated by the player. The effect, it has always struck me, is like something that really was only achieved fully more than a century later, in the studio - like a 'backwards guitar' or something, where instead of appearing suddenly and dying away gradually the reverse is true. Maybe Liszt himself didn't think as much about this effect as I do - but it's often hit me forcibly (depending on the recording, of course)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 10, 2011, 04:02:42 AM
Well, I just love the Dante, and always have, for some of the reasons I outlined recently - in the 'favourite composer of two symphonies thread' IIRC. I don't care that it is unsubtle and unsophisticated compared to the Faust (which I love equally though less urgently and instinctively). You need to hear a recording which doesn't try to prettify it or clean it up, so that the incredible (for the time) and alien sonorities come to the fore - the amazing sound of that suffocated tam-tam (it's marked in the score, suffocato!), those intensely beautiful noises of the winds of Hell, listlessly, aimless gusting in a mournful 5/4; Paolo and Francesca's love, memorialized in that odd, disturbingly disembodied 7/4 cantilena. It's not subtle, but boy is it powerful. And then Purgatorio, again, that peculiar aimless, trudging, toiling feeling which I have never heard in any other music, that curious, labouring fugue, slowly reaching upwards into major regions...

As a boy I listened to my own old scuffed-up, knocked-about LP - Gyorgy Lehel's recording - repeatedly, loving hearing these strange, fabulous noises from a netherworld rising tinnily from the surface of that spinning disc, as if the music really was some kind of reportage from the front. Maybe my love of this piece is a personal affair; I know it has its detractors, but I wouldn't be without it. In the Lehel version if possible.

Both pieces, though, are priceless, to me. This is stil early Romanticism, naive, miscalculating sometimes, over-the-top, but truly daring and brave, not (like much late Romanticism) hiding behind misty swathes of memory and half-light, blurred tonal mixtures to the fore, but blazingly in-the-moment, colourful and not afraid to be ugly. Berlioz is the only other orchestral composer of the time who really does this (Wagner being in a different field, to my mind) and these two symphonies, the Liszt Symphonic poem plus the best of Berlioz are a special category for me.

Now, I know I've reeled in a recording of the Dante Symphony, though I am not at all sure that I have (— and rather suspect that I have not —) actually listened, yet.  Fie on this run-about day!  I want to listen, dadfrazzanabit!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 10, 2011, 05:03:41 AM
I have this set:



I remember buying it because I did not have Liszt well repreneted in my collection beyond some  piano pieces on various CDs; no complete collections.  I must say that it has greately exceeded my expectations.  But I haven't listened to it nearly enough to even know the difference between the Dante or Faust symphonies; but which is something I plan on rectifying haste, post haste.

I have that set (not the box, but most of it in a pair of 2-fers and a third single disc), excellent.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Luke on May 10, 2011, 05:10:33 AM
I want to add that when I said that the two symphonies miscalculate sometimes, I really meant in hindsight - put besides more sophisticated, later works they can seem a little gauche (sweeping solo harp glissandi in diminished sevenths serving as a transition, for instance, in the Dante symphony). But on their own terms, I think that even these moments succeed - and in any case, as I hope I made clear above, I adore this fresh, almost childishly naive aspect to the music.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 10, 2011, 05:17:29 AM
I want to add that when I said that the two symphonies miscalculate sometimes, I really meant in hindsight - put besides more sophisticated, later works they can seem a little gauche (sweeping solo harp glissandi in diminished sevenths serving as a transition, for instance, in the Dante symphony). But on their own terms, I think that even these moments succeed - and in any case, as I hope I made clear above, I adore this fresh, almost childishly naive aspect to the music.

Agreed, the early Romantics were so consumed by the flame of Exploration, that even their missteps (if missteps they be) are engaging.
 
And I did find my recording of the Dante Symphony!  What a blast, and the women's choir at the end, exquisite.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Luke on May 10, 2011, 05:25:15 AM
Isn't it, though! There is a great deal of subtlety in this piece too, especially in the slower, more ellusive music - rhythmically, with those quintuple and septuple metres, and texturally too, in the central portions of the Inferno and in much of the rest. It's only, really, the brazenly hellish outer sections of that movement which could potentially offend against taste and decency!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: edward on May 10, 2011, 07:56:34 AM
OK, you've sold me on trying the Dante again. Any recording recommendations?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Cato on May 10, 2011, 08:10:54 AM
I recall Leonard Bernstein in a lecture calling the opening theme of the Faust Symphony a "twelve-tone row."

I have always wondered if anyone has in fact given it a dodecaphonical treatment   :o as a "Variations on a Theme by Liszt."   0:)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Luke on May 10, 2011, 10:18:01 AM
I recall Leonard Bernstein in a lecture calling the opening theme of the Faust Symphony a "twelve-tone row."

I have always wondered if anyone has in fact given it a dodecaphonical treatment   :o as a "Variations on a Theme by Liszt."   0:)

Don't give me ideas!!

Famously, it is a twelve tone row, of a sort, yes, though obviously not treated as such. It's really a kind of mystical, alchemical object, of the kind Busoni (another Faust devotee) would later use - the twelve tones representing science/mathematics/secret knowledge (just like another pre-Schoenbergian almost-but-not-quite 'twelve tone row', that of the 'Science' fugue in Strauss's Also sprach Zarathustra). But also important is that the Liszt theme is pattern of chromatically descending augmented triads - again, there's a kind of constructivist, synthetic, Scriabinesque mysticism to that, I think.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Luke on May 10, 2011, 10:20:12 AM
OK, you've sold me on trying the Dante again. Any recording recommendations?

I hope my post made clear that my own favourite recording, Lehel's, is very much a personal choice, and I know that most people will go for something with better playing and in better sound. Logically enough. But I still recommend it on the basis that 1) it is still available, AFAIK and 2) I've seen it recommended by others too, so it can't be just me! Remember, though, you have been warned  ;D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 10, 2011, 10:33:05 AM
I dig the Noseda. But if the Lehel may be even wilder . . . .

; )
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: abidoful on May 10, 2011, 11:58:59 AM
So much enthusiasm for Liszt's magnum opuses---I love this forum :)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Cato on May 10, 2011, 01:33:21 PM
Don't give me ideas!!

Famously, it is a twelve tone row, of a sort, yes, though obviously not treated as such. It's really a kind of mystical, alchemical object, of the kind Busoni (another Faust devotee) would later use - the twelve tones representing science/mathematics/secret knowledge (just like another pre-Schoenbergian almost-but-not-quite 'twelve tone row', that of the 'Science' fugue in Strauss's Also sprach Zarathustra). But also important is that the Liszt theme is pattern of chromatically descending augmented triads - again, there's a kind of constructivist, synthetic, Scriabinesque mysticism to that, I think.

'Tis me doody t' give ye ideers!   $:)

Liszt the Mystic is quite appropriate of course for the Abbe'. 

Some years ago, while at the University of Nebraska, I came across a Liszt expert.  He has several essays of interest on-line:

See:
http://www.paulbarnes.net/sacra-bridge.html (http://www.paulbarnes.net/sacra-bridge.html)

An excerpt:

Quote
Composed in 1853, Liszt's B Minor Sonata has long been a tour de force among pianists and remains an indispensable part of the pianist's repertoire.   The form of this giant thirty minute work is both unique and ambiguous.  Rather than constructing a typical multi-movement sonata typical of the sonatas composed in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, Liszt creates a gigantic one movement form that contains all the basic elements of the multi- movement sonata cycle.   Yet there is little that is neat and contained or totally satisfying about any particular analysis of this great work.  This is one reason that musicologists are still inspired to add their "new" analyses to an ever-growing list of noble attempts.  Yet no one issue related to the Sonata ignites greater passion than the idea that the 'sonata', a term used to denote "absolute" music with no external program, might actually contain extra musical references.  It is this writer's contention that the sonata is in fact a gloriously vague hybrid of both the "absolute" sonata and the epic tone poem, a programmatic form for which Liszt is given credit for inventing.  Given Liszt's remarkably articulate views on the sacramental nature and social purpose of music, it would seem most natural to search for a programmatic meaning to such a monumental composition. 

My emphasis above.

See also:

http://www.paulbarnes.net/liszt.htm (http://www.paulbarnes.net/liszt.htm)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 10, 2011, 01:39:55 PM
Isn't it, though! There is a great deal of subtlety in this piece too, especially in the slower, more ellusive music - rhythmically, with those quintuple and septuple metres, and texturally too, in the central portions of the Inferno and in much of the rest. It's only, really, the brazenly hellish outer sections of that movement which could potentially offend against taste and decency!


Like the Joycean slip.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Luke on May 10, 2011, 01:52:20 PM
I always get that one wrong!  ;D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 11, 2011, 02:46:12 AM
Haitink or Masur better in the tone-poems?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Luke on May 11, 2011, 03:29:09 AM
Masur gets my vote
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 11, 2011, 03:44:06 AM
I've had a reissue of Masur doing nos. 2-4 & 6, with which I have no quarrel.  I've been tempted by the 4-CD reissue of Haitink/London Phil.  Well, tempted is certainly past tense, I've gone ahead and plunged.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 11, 2011, 03:47:06 AM
Masur gets my vote

Between Masur and Haitink, yes, Masur. However, someone recommended Arpad Joo's cycle with the Budapest SO on Hungaroton and that doesn't disappoint either.


Sarge
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 11, 2011, 03:51:29 AM
I've had a reissue of Masur doing nos. 2-4 & 6, with which I have no quarrel.  I've been tempted by the 4-CD reissue of Haitink/London Phil.  Well, tempted is certainly past tense, I've gone ahead and plunged.

I'm not unhappy with the set as a whole. Haitink is good in the more reticent music but is let down, I think, by the sound engineer in the more extrovert passages (timpani recessed and lacking impact in Les préludes, for example).

Sarge
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 11, 2011, 04:57:34 AM
I'm not unhappy with the set as a whole. Haitink is good in the more reticent music but is let down, I think, by the sound engineer in the more extrovert passages (timpani recessed and lacking impact in Les préludes, for example).

But the brass is so beautifully recorded.  The Timpani can always be reinforced by stamping the feet while listening to the recording.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 11, 2011, 05:00:04 AM
. . . The Timpani can always be reinforced by stamping the feed while listening to the recording.

I do that all the time, anyway (Oh, I kid, I kid) . . . .
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: J.Z. Herrenberg on May 11, 2011, 05:20:30 AM
Between Masur and Haitink, yes, Masur. However, someone recommended Arpad Joo's cycle with the Budapest SO on Hungaroton and that doesn't disappoint either.


It was reissued in a Brilliant box, which I have. It is indeed excellent.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: abidoful on May 15, 2011, 06:13:21 AM
Did Karajan make a recording of the Faust-Symphony?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 15, 2011, 06:34:44 AM
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/bd/e1/53af225b9da0a2b980a9d010.L.jpg)

Liszt's grand and spectacular music brings out the best in Karajan and his orchestra - this is one of his most exciting recordings, and in the closing measures the music simply tears of the page. This two-disc set is an excellent introduction to Liszt's large-scale work.

This recordings are quite nice, but Karajan's earlier Philharmonia recordings on EMI are a notch above, to my ears anyway.

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: zamyrabyrd on May 15, 2011, 06:46:20 AM
Liszt can be credited with inventing the genre of the symphonic poem, and extended orchestral piece presented as the interpretation of a non-musical subject.

Doesn't Roméo et Juliette by Berlioz count as a symphonic poem?

Also somewhat in opposition to another post a couple pages ago, Liszt had plenty of trouble with acceptance of his orchestral music by his peers, so much that at times he was loathe to present it in public. (Re: The 2nd volume of Alan Walker's biography, "Franz Liszt" - which by the way, all three volumes are an excellent read about his life and music, with plenty of historical background.)
ZB
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 15, 2011, 07:07:06 AM
Doesn't Roméo et Juliette by Berlioz count as a symphonic poem?

or Beethoven's 6th, Mendelssohn Midsummer Night's Dream, Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage, or Fingal's Cave.  If Liszt can claim anything it would be naming the existing genre "symphonic poem."
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: abidoful on May 15, 2011, 07:13:57 AM


(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/bd/e1/53af225b9da0a2b980a9d010.L.jpg)
SO that recording above is A COMPLETE (excludind the piano-orchestra works?) RECORDING OF LISZT'S ORCHESTRAL WORKS then?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 15, 2011, 07:16:29 AM
SO that recording above is A COMPLETE (excludind the piano-orchestra works?) RECORDING OF LISZT'S ORCHESTRAL WORKS then?

No.  That is a single CD.  I think this one contains all of Karajan's Liszt recordings on DG, but is not nearly "complete."


Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: abidoful on May 15, 2011, 09:39:09 AM
Thanks!
I also did the "sensible" thing and checked that karajan recording myself.
It contains the following works (in two discs);
- Mefisto-Waltz nr1 (was it originally an orchestral work, or a solo piano, anyone? It's very famous among pianists!)
- Les Preludes
- Fantasia on Hungarian Folk Tunes (with piano)
- Hungarian Rhapsody nr 5 (and what's the sory of this? I thought the Hungarian Rhapsodies were solo piano pieces...  ???)
- MAZEPPA
- Hungarian Rhapsody nr 4
- Tasso. Lamento e Trionfo
- Hungarian Rhapsody nr 2
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: zamyrabyrd on May 15, 2011, 07:44:59 PM
or Beethoven's 6th, Mendelssohn Midsummer Night's Dream, Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage, or Fingal's Cave.  If Liszt can claim anything it would be naming the existing genre "symphonic poem."

Berlioz is credited with that as well but I wouldn't know the original source where he may have used the term.

ZB
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Luke on May 15, 2011, 08:29:55 PM
Berlioz is credited with that as well but I wouldn't know the original source where he may have used the term.

ZB

I'm sitting here questioning my own knowedge, because I know that you are not one to say his sort of thing without good reason - but I really don't recall things that way at all. Nor do I think of any of Berlioz's works as being symphonic poems - Romeo et Juliette (a piece which I adore beyond words!) is a symphony with large choral/vocal narrative elements, but this is very differnet from a symphonic poem.

The wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphonic_poem) on the subject - I know, I know, but this one actually looks well-researched (it seems to draw on Grove quite a bit) and relatively scholarly - unequivocally credits Liszt with the invention of the form and the term. Amongst the key passages it uses in this respect are:

Quote from: wikipedia
DEFINITION
A symphonic poem or tone poem is a piece of orchestral music in a single continuous section (a movement) in which the content of a poem, a story or novel, a painting, a landscape or another (non-musical) source is illustrated or evoked. The term was first applied by Hungarian composer Franz Liszt to his 13 works in this vein. In its aesthetic objectives, the symphonic poem is in some ways related to opera; whilst it does not use a sung text, it seeks like opera a union of music and drama...

BACKGROUND
Between 1845 and 1847, Franco-Belgian composer César Franck wrote an orchestral piece based on Victor Hugo's poem Ce qu'on entend sur le montagne. The work exhibits characteristics of a symphonic poem, and some musicologists, such as Norman Demuth and Julien Tiersot, consider it the first of its genre, preceding Liszt's compositions. However, Franck did not publish or perform his piece; neither did he set about defining the genre. Liszt's determination to explore and promote the symphonic poem gained him recognition as the genre's inventor. (this quotation, to me, emphasizes the rigour of this wiki entry and suggests that if Berlioz were in any way the progenitor of the form/the name, it would be mentioned here)

LISZT
The Hungarian composer Franz Liszt desired to expand single-movement works beyond the concert overture form. The music of overtures is to inspire listeners to imagine scenes, images, or moods; Liszt intended to combine those programmatic qualities with a scale and musical complexity normally reserved for the opening movement of classical symphonies. The opening movement, with its interplay of contrasting themes under sonata form, was normally considered the most important part of the symphony. To achieve his objectives, Liszt needed a more flexible method of developing musical themes than sonata form would allow, but one that would preserve the overall unity of a musical composition.

Liszt found his method through two compositional practices, which he used in his symphonic poems. The first practice was cyclic form, a procedure established by Beethoven in which certain movements are not only linked but actually reflect one another's content. Liszt took Beethoven's practice one step further, combining separate movements into a single-movement cyclic structure. Many of Liszt's mature works follow this pattern, of which Les Préludes is one of the best-known examples. The second practice was thematic transformation, a type of variation in which one theme is changed, not into a related or subsidiary theme but into something new, separate and independent. As musicologist Hugh Macdonald wrote of Liszt's works in this genre, the intent was "to display the traditional logic of symphonic thought;" that is, to display a comparable complexity in the interplay of musical themes and tonal 'landscape' to those of the Romantic symphony.

Thematic transformation, like cyclic form, was nothing new in itself. It had been previously used by Mozart and Haydn. In the final movement of his Ninth Symphony, Beethoven had transformed the theme of the "Ode to Joy" into a Turkish march. Weber and Berlioz had also transformed themes, and Schubert used thematic transformation to bind together the movements of his Wanderer Fantasy, a work that had a tremendous influence on Liszt. However, Liszt perfected the creation of significantly longer formal structures solely through thematic transformation, not only in the symphonic poems but in others works such as his Second Piano Concerto and his Piano Sonata in B minor. In fact, when a work had to be shortened, Liszt tended to cut sections of conventional musical development and preserve sections of thematic transformation.

While Liszt had been inspired to some extent by the ideas of Richard Wagner in unifying ideas of drama and music via the symphonic poem, Wagner gave Liszt's concept only lukewarm support in his 1857 essay On the Symphonic Poems of Franz Liszt, and was later to break entirely with Liszt's Weimar circle over their aesthetic ideals...

THE SYMPHONIC POEM IN FRANCE
While France was less concerned than other countries with nationalism, it still had a well-established tradition of narrative and illustrative music reaching back to Berlioz and Félicien David. For this reason, French composers were attracted to the poetic elements of the symphonic poem. In fact, César Franck had written an orchestral piece based on Hugo's poem Ce qu'on entend sur le montagne before Liszt did so himself as his first numbered symphonic poem.

The symphonic poem came into vogue in France in the 1870s, supported by the newly-founded Société Nationale and its promotion of younger French composers. In the year after its foundation... (etc)

 :)  :)

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 15, 2011, 08:32:30 PM
I agree that Berlioz' Romeo and Juliet is not a symphonic poem, it is a really bad, really boring cantata.  But what of Mendelssohn Midsummer Night's Dream Overture, Fingal's Cave, Calm Sea and Safe Voyage.  I know he called them "Overtures" but why aren't they tone poems by another name?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Luke on May 15, 2011, 11:06:57 PM
Perhaps they are. But then you get into the question of titling - if I call a two note phrase tapped out on a xylophone a symphony is it therefore really a symphony? OTOH, if I write something that is resolutely in traditional symphonic form but doggedly refuse to call it a symphony in any way, is it therefore not a symphony? The composer's intentions have to mean something - Mendelssohn called those pieces Overtures, and in fact, that is a perfectly good description of them - the overture as a form is perfectly legitimate. There is also the question of form and program - The Midsummer Night's Dream overture doesn't follow a program, it is a classically proportioned and structured piece whose themes are also representative of characters and locations in the drama, but which don't follow the drama in their layout. That isn't really the best description of a symphonic or tone poem to me*. OTOH, Fingal's Cave is much more like a truly progammatic work, more like a symphonic poem, though one of compact scale.

Re the Berlioz. Call the choral bits boring if you wish. But there is no way that those central orchestral movements - Romeo Alone, the Scene d'amour and the Scherzo - can be put anywhere other than amongst Berlioz's finest works. The Scene d'amour, in his own opinion, was the finest thing he ever wrote, and I agree. It is a ravishing, astonishing piece of music.

*And there is also that question of what difference there is, if any, between tone poem and symphonic poem...
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 15, 2011, 11:16:56 PM
Re the Berlioz. Call the choral bits boring if you wish. But there is no way that those central orchestral movements - Romeo Alone, the Scene d'amour and the Scherzo - can be put anywhere other than amongst Berlioz's finest works. The Scene d'amour, in his own opinion, was the finest thing he ever wrote, and I agree. It is a ravishing, astonishing piece of music.

The first movement is thrilling.  Then there is a small choir endlessly intoning the story we all know, then a vocal solo that seems to use only two notes.  I never got past those parts.   :-[
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Luke on May 15, 2011, 11:19:34 PM
Just skip them and head for the orchestral movements. You're missing a treat. Berlioz's conception of this work causes difficulties, I know - he wants to sum up the whole pesky dramatic side of things at the beginning and at the end, leaving the central portions for instrumental mediations and so on. It's a difficult balance to pull off, and I think he succeeds, but I agree that it all sails close the wind and can quite understand anyone being put off. Head for the Scene d'amour, though....
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 16, 2011, 12:56:54 AM
I agree that Berlioz' Romeo and Juliet is not a symphonic poem . . .

Yes.

. . . it is a really bad, really boring cantata.

No, no, no ; )
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2011, 03:35:13 AM
Could you please elaborate a bit? What exactly do you feel it's wrong with the choral part?


After 70 minutes of glorious tone-painting of the characters in the story I don't see why that extremely successful procedure has to stop and be replaced by recitation of an unintelligible text.

I see. You do have a point --- but then again, for Liszt and his intended audience Latin was far from being unintelligible.  :)

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 16, 2011, 03:51:18 AM
After 70 minutes of glorious tone-painting of the characters in the story I don't see why that extremely successful procedure has to stop and be replaced by recitation of an unintelligible text.

Considering the "unintelligible" charge answered . . . why, in any event, is this a "cop-out"? ; )
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 16, 2011, 05:00:57 AM
Considering the "unintelligible" charge answered . . . why, in any event, is this a "cop-out"? ; )

Actually, I thought the text in Faust was from Goethe, and in German. 

Because he was expressing everything beautifully using abstract musical means, then all of a sudden he is reciting the text, as though the music was insufficient. 
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2011, 05:08:42 AM
Actually, I thought the text in Faust was from Goethe, and in German. 

Gosh, I'm ashamed of making such a blunder, but I actually thought you were talking about the Dante Symphony.  :(

Mea maxima culpa! Apologies!  0:)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 16, 2011, 05:09:36 AM
Actually, I thought the text in Faust was from Goethe, and in German. 

Because he was expressing everything beautifully using abstract musical means, then all of a sudden he is reciting the text, as though the music was insufficient.

At some point in the discussion, it must have seemed that the topic was the Dante Symphony, I am guessing.

I see your point, I think; though I don't see that "alternative ending" as a philosophical assertion of the insufficiency of the music.  I think it's a musical choice, adding the timbre of the chorus/tenor soloist.  So I think of it as another expression of Liszt's experimental, inquiring spirit.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 16, 2011, 05:09:44 AM
Gosh, I'm ashamed of making such a blunder, but I actually thought you were talking about the Dante Symphony.  :(

Mea maxima culpa! Apologies!  0:)

Accepted, but Dante would be in Italian, no?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 16, 2011, 05:11:15 AM
At some point in the discussion, it must have seemed that the topic was the Dante Symphony, I am guessing.
Gosh, I'm ashamed of making such a blunder, but I actually thought you were talking about the Dante Symphony.  :(

Mea maxima culpa! Apologies!  0:)

Accepted, but Dante would be in Italian, no?

Crossed!

Yes, only the text set at the close of the Purgatorio movement is the Magnificat, hence, Latin.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 16, 2011, 05:11:45 AM
At some point in the discussion, it must have seemed that the topic was the Dante Symphony, I am guessing.

I see your point, I think; though I don't see that "alternative ending" as a philosophical assertion of the insufficiency of the music.  I think it's a musical choice, adding the timbre of the chorus/tenor soloist.  So I think of it as another expression of Liszt's experimental, inquiring spirit.


Plus, I just don't like the sound of bombastic choir and orchestra. 
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 16, 2011, 05:12:36 AM
Crossed!

Yes, only the text set at the close of the Purgatorio movement is the Magnificat, hence, Latin.


I see, I haven't gotten around to hearing the Dante yet.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 16, 2011, 05:16:28 AM
Plus, I just don't like the sound of bombastic choir and orchestra. 

Right . . . I've been apt to forget that you're guarded in your appreciation of the Beethoven Ninth for that reason ; )

Reminds me that I must take your distaste for the Berlioz Opus 17 cum grano salis!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2011, 05:48:43 AM
Accepted, but Dante would be in Italian, no?

Actually, in Latin, as Karl said: Magnificat.

But... even in the case of the Faust Symphony, my point stands: German was certainly no unintelligible language for Liszt and his audience.  :)

I assume your gripe is more with the idea of chorus as such than with language.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 16, 2011, 05:53:48 AM
Actually, in Latin, as Karl said: Magnificat.

But... even in the case of the Faust Symphony, my point stands: German was certainly no unintelligible language for Liszt and his audience.  :)

I assume your gripe is more with the idea of chorus as such than with language.

I would never be able to understand the words being sung no matter what language, but you are right, my main objection is to the use of chorus, and to the idea that the music has become insufficient and some sort of narration is necessary to finish the piece.  I wish someone would record the original version as an alternative.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 16, 2011, 06:16:32 AM
I would never be able to understand the words being sung no matter what language, but you are right, my main objection is to the use of chorus, and to the idea that the music has become insufficient and some sort of narration is necessary to finish the piece.  I wish someone would record the original version as an alternative.

Actually, I get the sense that the instrumental version has been recorded as often (or oftener).

Give this one a go, Scarps:



Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Luke on May 16, 2011, 06:25:55 AM
Mea maxima culpa! Apologies!  0:)

You and your bloomin' unintelligible German phrases....!  ;D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 16, 2011, 07:15:04 AM
Actually, I get the sense that the instrumental version has been recorded as often (or oftener).

Give this one a go, Scarps:




Duh, I have that recording.   :P  I've been afraid to listen to it because of the fear that it will be good and I'll have to get the other volumes from the series. 
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 16, 2011, 08:22:32 AM
....but you are right, my main objection is to the use of chorus, and to the idea that the music has become insufficient....

So with the addition of the human voice it somehow ceases to be "music"?  ;D

Sarge
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 16, 2011, 08:29:34 AM
So with the addition of the human voice it somehow ceases to be "music"?  ;D

Not the addition of the human voice, the addition of words.   If Liszt had added wordless choir as an "orchestral" effect my objection would be moot.  It is the idea (attributed to Wagner's influence in one of the little booklets) that the text was necessary to provided the satisfactory conclusion.

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Florestan on May 17, 2011, 05:00:33 AM
I would never be able to understand the words being sung no matter what language,

Yet your username suggests an opera fan.  ???

(Look, I'm not trying to play the smartass, boyscout honor --- I don't understand more than a few German / Latin words and my Italian is serviceable enough only if the singers have a perfect diction. :) )
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Luke on May 17, 2011, 06:28:04 AM
I just got this from the library:



Ahhhh, Arte Nova and their eccentric cover art. Boxing is, of course, the first thing I think of when I imagine l'Abbe Liszt composing all those devout, peculiar late organ pieces...
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: abidoful on May 17, 2011, 06:36:58 AM
Ahhhh, Arte Nova and their eccentric cover art. Boxing is, of course, the first thing I think of when I imagine l'Abbe Liszt composing all those devout, peculiar late organ pieces...
Maybe it implyes that Liszt had put his Boxing gloves aside at the time he composed these organ works?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 17, 2011, 06:59:34 AM
Ahhhh, Arte Nova and their eccentric cover art. Boxing is, of course, the first thing I think of when I imagine l'Abbe Liszt composing all those devout, peculiar late organ pieces...

I cannot help feeling that there is a tie-in with Billy Joel (that Piano Man) and his The Stranger.
 
But then, I remember
Cato's sound advice (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,18538.msg515378.html#msg515378) via W.C. Fields ; )
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: haydnguy on May 20, 2011, 08:44:21 AM
One of my favorite discs is a collection of late works, most of them cello & piano, played on an Érard piano of Liszt's day.

Karl, could you elaborate on what disc you are referring to? I'm starting to fill in my collection with the much neglected Liszt (in my case).  Thanks!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 20, 2011, 08:49:14 AM
Karl, could you elaborate on what disc you are referring to? I'm starting to fill in my collection with the much neglected Liszt (in my case).  Thanks!

I'm finally catching on that there are two haydnxxx posters.   The next step is figuring out which is which. 
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Mn Dave on May 20, 2011, 08:51:00 AM
I'm finally catching on that there are two haydnxxx posters.   The next step is figuring out which is which.

Yeah! And I don't have all these user-name changes sorted yet.  >:(
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 20, 2011, 08:53:54 AM
Karl, could you elaborate on what disc you are referring to? I'm starting to fill in my collection with the much neglected Liszt (in my case).  Thanks!

Jos van Immerseel on this disc:


Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: haydnguy on May 20, 2011, 08:57:13 AM
Jos van Immerseel on this disc:




Great! Thanks. It says it's temp. out of stock. I'll go ahead and order and see what they say. They don't even let you download it. ???
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: haydnguy on May 20, 2011, 09:00:17 AM
I'm finally catching on that there are two haydnxxx posters.   The next step is figuring out which is which.

I am me, and he is he.  :P
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: DavidW on May 20, 2011, 10:17:04 AM
I'm finally catching on that there are two haydnxxx posters.   The next step is figuring out which is which.

Easy he is the Haydn and Bax fan, I'm the Haydn and Bach fan.  Of course now I also like Bax and he likes Bach... ;D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Mn Dave on May 20, 2011, 10:25:46 AM
I'm changing mine to "David W."  0:)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: karlhenning on May 20, 2011, 10:26:48 AM
Take over, Dave! : )
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scarpia on May 20, 2011, 10:30:29 AM
Easy he is the Haydn and Bax fan, I'm the Haydn and Bach fan.  Of course now I also like Bax and he likes Bach... ;D

Ok, at least you don't both have pictures of Haydn as your avatars anymore.   :P
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: DavidW on May 20, 2011, 10:35:52 AM
Ok, at least you don't both have pictures of Haydn as your avatars anymore.   :P

On the other forum we both do! :D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Mn Dave on May 20, 2011, 10:42:01 AM
On the other forum we both do! :D

Other forum?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: abidoful on May 20, 2011, 11:53:29 AM
Continuing my traversal of as much of Liszt's "out of the way" music as I can discover I am enjoying this 3-disc collection (complete, I think) of his lieder performed by Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau and Daniel Barenboim.  Such beautiful nuanced performances!  Of course O lieb, so lang du lieben kannst is well know and often sung - but so much of the rest is entirely new to me and very good.
The lied "O lieb, so lang du lieben kannst" isn't permormed so often IMO-rather the contary- but the pianoversion of that song is a hit ("Liebesträume" its called). Most beloved Liszt songs are definatelu "O quand j'dor" and "Die Loreley".
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: DavidW on May 20, 2011, 11:53:38 AM
Other forum?

You're like what?!  How could you!!? :'(

 ;D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Mn Dave on May 20, 2011, 12:51:53 PM
You're like what?!  How could you!!? :'(

 ;D

Nah. I'm just curious which one.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Brian on May 20, 2011, 12:55:19 PM
You're like what?!  How could you!!? :'(

 ;D

There is no other forum.  0:)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Mn Dave on May 20, 2011, 12:56:21 PM
There is no other forum.  0:)

You shall have no other forums before me!!  0:)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 09, 2011, 03:22:19 AM
 :o :o :o



34 discs for around $70, this sounds almost too good. I have a good amount of orchestral works by Liszt, but am very intrigued by this set.
Any Liszt fans have comments on this collection? Are these good performances?

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: edward on July 09, 2011, 08:56:28 AM
It's a mixed bag, really. Some of the recordings are bona-fide classics (Lazar Berman's Annees de pelerinage, the Zimerman/Ozawa concerto/Totentanz disc, Arrau in the Verdi transcriptions, much of the Bolet material), some are interesting if non-canonical (Sinopoli in the symphonies, Zimerman's B minor sonata and late pieces), and some are very odd choices given the performances DG/Universal had in the vault (Ott's Transcendentals, Solti in some of the symphonic poems).

Overall, I think the set really scores in having 5 or 6 absolutely outstanding discs of mainstream Liszt allied to 6 discs giving good coverage of his rarely-performed/recorded choral works (Legend of St. Elizabeth, Missa choralis, Hungarian Coronation Mass, Missa solemnis, Via crucis and  Cantico del sol di Francesco d'Assisi). So if that appearls, I'd go for it....I did when I saw it for sale for $60 CDN.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on July 23, 2011, 09:20:30 AM
Does Daniel have a mortgage that needs paying or something? So many recent discs pouring out.

Still, I'll be interested in the reviews on this one :)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: smitty1931 on July 24, 2011, 11:30:13 AM
Any Liszt fan should see if their library system owns the Teaching Company's 2 DVDs of Liszt's life and works. Interesting and insightful. Recommended!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: haydnguy on August 17, 2011, 10:01:36 AM
It's a mixed bag, really. Some of the recordings are bona-fide classics (Lazar Berman's Annees de pelerinage, the Zimerman/Ozawa concerto/Totentanz disc, Arrau in the Verdi transcriptions, much of the Bolet material), some are interesting if non-canonical (Sinopoli in the symphonies, Zimerman's B minor sonata and late pieces), and some are very odd choices given the performances DG/Universal had in the vault (Ott's Transcendentals, Solti in some of the symphonic poems).

Overall, I think the set really scores in having 5 or 6 absolutely outstanding discs of mainstream Liszt allied to 6 discs giving good coverage of his rarely-performed/recorded choral works (Legend of St. Elizabeth, Missa choralis, Hungarian Coronation Mass, Missa solemnis, Via crucis and  Cantico del sol di Francesco d'Assisi). So if that appearls, I'd go for it....I did when I saw it for sale for $60 CDN.

Edward, I'm in the middle of a marathon listen of my Lizt Collection box. (DG) I haven't seen anyone mention the lack of libretto for the lieder either on here or on the Amazon review. I'm just about finished with the solo piano and getting ready to listen to the organ music but the lack of libretto seems like a real bummer to ME. I don't mind downloading it, but the lack of libretto at all would mean that the listener has to search piece by piece on the web, which is unreasonable in my view.  ???
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on December 07, 2011, 12:57:31 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/jnLlC.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Janice-Weber-performs-Liszt-Transcendental/dp/B000FPNKNE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323291202&sr=8-1)

A question - are the pieces contained on this disc the Douze grandes études, S.137 (1837) - perhaps they got the year wrong, - or a total revision in between these and the Études d'exécution transcendante, S.139 (1852)? S.138 is an intermediate version of Mazeppa, so I suppose it might be S.137 with that added, but some clarity would be welcome. If it is the latter, then surely the disc is mistitled? Fff confusion ;D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 07, 2011, 01:04:26 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/jnLlC.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Janice-Weber-performs-Liszt-Transcendental/dp/B000FPNKNE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323291202&sr=8-1)

A question - are the pieces contained on this disc the Douze grandes études, S.137 (1837) - perhaps they got the year wrong, - or a total revision in between these and the Études d'exécution transcendante, S.139 (1852)? S.138 is an intermediate version of Mazeppa, so I suppose it might be S.137 with that added, but some clarity would be welcome. If it is the latter, then surely the disc is mistitled? Fff confusion ;D
The only thing that I can think of is that while they were completed in 1837, I see they were only first published in 1838. Maybe that accounts for the date?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on December 07, 2011, 02:19:07 PM
Hmm danke - I suppose I will label them as Douze grandes études, as even if there is a difference, it could only be the Mazeppa movement?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on December 12, 2011, 12:27:49 PM
As I'm a massive piano lover and a self-taught pianist, along with Rachmaninov, Franz Liszt is certainly my favourite pianist (besides being one of my favourite composers in general) and one of my main source of inspiration :)
I absolutely love his music, which I've always found incredibly beautiful and powerfully evocative; it can be so thrilling, impressive and hauting, showing a wonderful virtuosic technique that makes the most of all the possibilities of the keyboard, but also extremely refined, melodious and passionate at the same time! Definitely, his compositions are full of brilliance and intensity, with an amazing orchestration and a deeply enchanting harmony.
I adore both his piano and the symphonic works, in particular the Piano Concertos, the Hungarian Rhapsodies, the Transcendental Etudes, the Annees de Pelerinage, the Faust-Symphony, Les Preludes, Mazeppa and Orpheus.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on December 13, 2011, 06:15:14 PM
It's super to have another Lisztian here! :)

I'm currently at a difficult spot in my exploration of the composer's music - I am really enjoying a lot of the solo piano works that the Hyperion edition has recorded, but it can be hard to make suggestions as the content is spread so far across small single pieces, tiny collections, etc. I simultaneously find these works highly enjoyable, but difficult to recommend without redundancy (as there are no alternate recordings of many of the works anyway). All I can say is "if you're interested in these recordings, don't hesitate".

The more I listen to Howard's playing, the more content I am with it - I don't hear the problems that some do and it feels note perfect, which is the ideal way to present unknown works. I'm sure that now the full box has been released, the single volumes must be going very cheaply.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on December 14, 2011, 03:42:10 PM
It's super to have another Lisztian here! :)

I'm currently at a difficult spot in my exploration of the composer's music - I am really enjoying a lot of the solo piano works that the Hyperion edition has recorded, but it can be hard to make suggestions as the content is spread so far across small single pieces, tiny collections, etc. I simultaneously find these works highly enjoyable, but difficult to recommend without redundancy (as there are no alternate recordings of many of the works anyway). All I can say is "if you're interested in these recordings, don't hesitate".

The more I listen to Howard's playing, the more content I am with it - I don't hear the problems that some do and it feels note perfect, which is the ideal way to present unknown works. I'm sure that now the full box has been released, the single volumes must be going very cheaply.

 :)

I agree Howard's volumes are very enjoyable and well-played, certainly stunning! But I have to admit that I prefer other pianists for the Hungarian Rhapsodies, the Transcendental Studies and the Années de pèlerinage (Richter, Arrau, Campanella, Ovchinnikov, Kempff, Barenboim, Ashkenazy).
Anyway it's wonderful he made a complete set of Liszt Piano Works, a set including even the less famous compositions! There's much more by Liszt than only Hungarian Rhapsody No.2, La campanella or Liebestraum No.3
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: eyeresist on December 14, 2011, 10:04:21 PM
I got into Liszt recently after picking up the Australian Eloquence 2-CD reissue of Solti in the tone poems and Fischer in the Hungarian Dances (which I eventually returned, as the final dance had an irreparable glitch). I can't seem to get anyone interested in talking about the orchestral music. They all want to talk about the piano music - or even the songs. BORING!

I'm trying at the moment to convince people of Liszt's importance to Mahler. Surely the Faust Symphony must have been a model for the Resurrection Symphony. See also the Heroide Funebre, a fractured funeral march worthy of Schnittke.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 15, 2011, 12:43:09 AM
I got into Liszt recently after picking up the Australian Eloquence 2-CD reissue of Solti in the tone poems and Fischer in the Hungarian Dances (which I eventually returned, as the final dance had an irreparable glitch). I can't seem to get anyone interested in talking about the orchestral music. They all want to talk about the piano music - or even the songs. BORING!

I'm trying at the moment to convince people of Liszt's importance to Mahler. Surely the Faust Symphony must have been a model for the Resurrection Symphony. See also the Heroide Funebre, a fractured funeral march worthy of Schnittke.
There may have been some discussion about this when Barenboim's Liszt set was released - I can't remember. I think Liszt is often the odd man out when it comes to linking early romanticsm with later romanticism. I don't think it's desrved.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: eyeresist on December 15, 2011, 04:29:21 PM
There may have been some discussion about this when Barenboim's Liszt set was released - I can't remember. I think Liszt is often the odd man out when it comes to linking early romanticsm with later romanticism. I don't think it's desrved.
Yes, I think Liszt was a major factor in 19th century musical development. But now he is in historical terms a "missing link". He used to be HUGE, a landmark of the repertoire. The use of Les Preludes in the old Flash Gordon serials is proof enough of that (plus an orchestration of the piano sonata was used in the Karloff/Lugosi film The Black Cat). He's still popular with pianists, but even there we perceive the musicians feel special need to justify their playing him. For shame.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Mirror Image on December 15, 2011, 09:47:30 PM
I got into Liszt recently after picking up the Australian Eloquence 2-CD reissue of Solti in the tone poems and Fischer in the Hungarian Dances (which I eventually returned, as the final dance had an irreparable glitch). I can't seem to get anyone interested in talking about the orchestral music. They all want to talk about the piano music - or even the songs. BORING!

I'm trying at the moment to convince people of Liszt's importance to Mahler. Surely the Faust Symphony must have been a model for the Resurrection Symphony. See also the Heroide Funebre, a fractured funeral march worthy of Schnittke.

I hear ya, eyeresist. I love Liszt's orchestral music in particular Prometheus, Orpheus, Faust Symphony, Mazeppa, Les Preludes to name a few. Yes, his solo piano music from what I've heard is good, but he's not given enough credit for his orchestral accomplishments. He's opened up many doors.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: eyeresist on December 16, 2011, 11:13:01 PM
Oddly, Preludes and Mazeppa are supposed to be the hits, but haven't really grabbed me so far. I will have to do a survey of the recordings some day, but in the meantime some of the lesser known pieces are great. Have you heard the Two Episodes from Lenau's Faust?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Mirror Image on December 17, 2011, 08:18:34 PM
Oddly, Preludes and Mazeppa are supposed to be the hits, but haven't really grabbed me so far. I will have to do a survey of the recordings some day, but in the meantime some of the lesser known pieces are great. Have you heard the Two Episodes from Lenau's Faust?

Yes and from what I remember they were good. I think I have them on that Volkov/BBC Scottish Symphony disc on Hyperion called Funeral Odes. I may be wrong, I'll have to check.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on May 18, 2012, 09:14:25 AM
How did you know that I had just discovered that Liszt is who I had just come around to?

Here is a man who seems to embody some kind of a mythical life,... with magical powers and everything (including the babes! :o),... I mean, who could want more?,... he even repented at the end!! :-*

And then i look at all these photos of Lisztian pianists- some in disguise as a 'normal' man, some with the very hair proclaiming Greatness!- and I see the residue of the light that informed Liszt. And I HEAR it! :o

I was bumming because of an utter lack of interest,... it was really down to Satie, Ravel, and Liszt (with Busoni),... and I just 'strumbled' onto Liszt, having determined to go after the Late Piano Works. Though proving not to be where I'm at at the moment, they have shuttled me into the kingdom from the caboose, making me yearn for all those tinkling, twinkling delights (I need Water Music!!).

I set about to make a one sheet Works List of the piano works, and began researching recordings (as you know, I'm currently in a 'Missing Plug-In' pickle), and I've found some curiosities already: Barenboim, Friere, Katsaris, Sherman in the Etudes. I'm curious what are some of your curiosities, as opposed to the Usual Suspects (Brendel, Arrau, Wild (Wild?),...). I suppose even Howard can pop up as a First Choice in some areas (anyone have a detailed,... oh wait,...) as an 'unexpected'. Kocsis...had that back in the day...


Right now, Liszt comes to me in:

a) sets of actual sets ('Harmonies', 'Annees', 'Etudes',...)

b) recitals of fairly 'hermetic' (thematically linked) items ('Ballades' and 'Legends' together; 'Late Works')

c) more loosely organized recitals

d) the odd chicken here and there

I know I've been through this before, and I can certainly overdo it like any here can, so, I'd love to get into everyone's deepest thoughts on the subject. I'll look through the Threads.

I'll be looking for issues where every finger is making a different sound,... the odd, the wild,... I'll even check out Pogo! C'mon, kids, who makes your jaw drop? :o

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 18, 2012, 09:33:38 AM
We have met Liszt and he is us.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on May 18, 2012, 11:06:41 AM
We have met Liszt and he is us.

That's it. ;) 8)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on May 18, 2012, 11:08:02 AM
We have met Liszt and he is us.

The seeking... the searching... the joy, the sorrow...


...It's a MAN, baby!...
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on May 18, 2012, 01:27:55 PM
Any particulars to any of these recitals?:

Rudy (EMI)

Andsnes (Virgin?)

Hough 1-2 (Virgin)

Duchable (Erato/Apex)

Dalberto (Denon)

Tabe (Denon)

Lipsky (Denon)

Paik (Virgin)

Browning (Delos)

L. Zimerman(sic) (DG)

...more?...
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86): HELP!!!
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2012, 10:05:05 AM
I need the support of the most rabid Liszt-o-maniacs. WHERE on this site can I find people who ONLY exist to COMMAND me to buy the BEST Liszt. I mean, this Thread leaves a LOT to be desired for just a plain Liszt Thread, but the Recordings Threads aren't much better. Who, who, WHO will clear these up for me?:

Volodos (Sony)
Rudy (EMI)
Andsnes (EMI)
Duchable (Erato)
Hamelin (Hyperion)
Perehia (Sony)
Cherkasky Funerailles (Nimbus)
Katsaris Waltzes (Teldec)
Watt (EMI) 2
Chui (HM)

and

Kempff (DG)
Friere (Decca)
Bolet 'Rediscovered' (RCA)


I started my current Lisztmania with the Campanella disc of Late Pieces, and have ordered the Hough 'box' on Virgin. I am more concerned with hearing different, incredible players, rather than collecting Liszt, though surely I will also be rediscovering most of this music after 20 years.

Any lost, well recorded, jaw droppers?...


There hasn't even been a discussion over Bolet vs. Arrau...


and PLEASE, what of Barenboim's Annees 1 (DG)?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 27, 2012, 10:25:01 AM
I need the support of the most rabid Liszt-o-maniacs. WHERE on this site can I find people who ONLY exist to COMMAND me to buy the BEST Liszt. I mean, this Thread leaves a LOT to be desired for just a plain Liszt Thread, but the Recordings Threads aren't much better. Who, who, WHO will clear these up for me?:

Volodos (Sony)
Rudy (EMI)
Andsnes (EMI)
Duchable (Erato)
Hamelin (Hyperion)
Perehia (Sony)
Cherkasky Funerailles (Nimbus)
Katsaris Waltzes (Teldec)
Watt (EMI) 2
Chui (HM)

and

Kempff (DG)
Friere (Decca)
Bolet 'Rediscovered' (RCA)


I started my current Lisztmania with the Campanella disc of Late Pieces, and have ordered the Hough 'box' on Virgin. I am more concerned with hearing different, incredible players, rather than collecting Liszt, though surely I will also be rediscovering most of this music after 20 years.

Any lost, well recorded, jaw droppers?...


There hasn't even been a discussion over Bolet vs. Arrau...


and PLEASE, what of Barenboim's Annees 1 (DG)?
Here a couple I like:



Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2012, 06:08:59 PM
Here a couple I like:




I AM having difficulty figuring out which Wild is the Wild to get! There's another cover for that Vanguard?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 27, 2012, 10:03:50 PM
I AM having difficulty figuring out which Wild is the Wild to get! There's another cover for that Vanguard?
I think it was this originally...



I also like this one...



And there is this one, but I don't have it...



It can be confusing as he did a lot of Liszt over the years. There is another one called the Virtuosity of Earl Wild that looks good too (good reviews on Amazon as well).
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on May 28, 2012, 07:01:57 AM
I think it was this originally...



I also like this one...



And there is this one, but I don't have it...



It can be confusing as he did a lot of Liszt over the years. There is another one called the Virtuosity of Earl Wild that looks good too (good reviews on Amazon as well).

Are you familiar with the Wild/Wilde 2cd on EMI?,... three pianists...
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on June 02, 2012, 10:05:57 AM
I have convinced myself I can get all the Piano Music for less than $50 (Shipping not included!!). Who's with me?

I mean, if the Howard set is 99 cds, and if we, just for the sake of argument, cut down on the word 'all' a little, I think it's quite possible. All we would really need is a few desperate vendors! ;)


Either way, I have 'tripped' into a Lisztian CDCDCD issue, and am desperately trying to back out before I hit the transcription phase of my obsession. So far, we've settled on:



nevermind,... I need a nap...


Hough VS Volodos

I got them both on the same day, and it's been quite an interesting compare. Both are fairly equal, but, in the St. Francis piece, for instance, Volodos produces plutonium cosmic guaze where Hough spins merely the finest silk. Maybe that's not fair to Hough, though, who is about the most reliable pianist out there (especially in this stuff!). It could just be the sound that each is afforded: both have curiosities, that bring out different things. Volodos is given the most awesomely thunderous bass I've ever heard in Funerailles. I was quite amazed at Volodos's choice of works: there are quite a few of the more introspective pieces here, allowing Volodos only to be perfect in a 'different' way

I think Hough edges out Hamelin in the Tarantella.

I probably shoul;d have put this in the Recordings...
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 03, 2012, 01:56:24 AM
Are you familiar with the Wild/Wilde 2cd on EMI?,... three pianists...
Sorry - don't know it.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86): OPERA Transcriptions
Post by: snyprrr on June 03, 2012, 05:40:23 AM
I just spent the day squinting, looking at the Hyperion 'Liszt at the Opera' cds' backside to get a grip on the 12! :o cds of paraphrases and fantasies.

As I checked further, there appears to be cds dedicated to the Verdi, Donizetti, Wagner, Bellini, and Rossini pieces. Would anyone care to educate me on the 'essentials'? I notice that most of Vols. 5-6 in the Howard Cycle are second versions and such, leaving a more manageable group of pieces.

Surely someone can point me in the right direction. It does appear that Howard is, generally, the perfect guide here, but, there are lots of other pianists such as Wehr, and the new Japanese lady (Chitoise?), as well as Hegedus on Hungaroton. What do you say?

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86): The 19 Hungarian Rhapsodies
Post by: snyprrr on June 13, 2012, 01:44:33 PM
I'm basically coming new to this set (with a cd with no liner notes :(), so, I'm just going to Post my reactions to each. Right now, the player is not important (but, it's a MOR choice).

No.1: Obviously, this is a Long One! My first reaction is as a... piano solo,... rhapsodic! in nature,... with a certain minor key slant that I translate as 'jamming' (yes, very illiterate right now :-[). It does seem long,... sometimes I thought we were on the next one, but, no,... still, I want to hear it again. I love the tickling treble octaves!

No.2: This ones much more condensed, with the same minor key 'base' as the first piece. Ah!, so THIS? is Gypsy Music? What, going from minor tonic to the 5th is Gypsy Music? Anyhow, at one point I must admit it sounded like bordello music. Still, again, it is fun to hear.

No.3: This one is much darker than the first two, and much shorter, @6mins. This one definitely makes you want to hear it again, much richer.

No.4: Haha, this one is quite exuberant, very Tickle-Mania! There's lots of up and down the keyboard. Again, the very 'earthy' dance melody gives a very peasant village hall feeling. It's the shortest one so far.

No.5: This one starts off real nice and dark and cool, with octave bass. Very nice! This sounds like something I'd improvise. Ah!, I see it's in 'E minor', haha, of course, my favorite 'Rock' key! Well, that explains it's familiarity. Hmm, we're halfway through and it hasn't picked up speed; it's a slow one. There is something slightly macabre,... a candlelit feeling, in a grotto,... under the Opera House... well, maybe not like that. Is this where Liberace was born? :-\

I'm going to guess this is one of the Popular Ones, haha. Mmm,... those bass notes are tasty! :P

No.6: Now we're back in Dance territory, a very stately one at that! I really like the festive tone here. Hmm,... Db Major, interesting. I can see how that black key bass note makes this piece... it sounds 'four square', like a barn dance or something,... ah, here comes the sad part! :'(

And now we have rhapsodized back to a different dance feel. I do like this stuff so far, very life affirming,... and, on top of that, you can tell it's Liszt, because the actual level of virtuosity is total. So many interesting sounds!

No.7: This has an overt 'gypsy' feel, like what I might think I'd hear in the gypsy village of a Hollywood film,... maybe not, but, a certain 'peasant' quality, rustic, folklore,... the rhythm is very rhapsodic,... yes, this has a certain 'film' quality to it. D minor.,... the 'gypsy violin' key?

No.8: A nice f# minor key. How did I ever miss this? This has "Liszt Rock Star' feel all over it, haha!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86): The 19 Hungarian Rhapsodies
Post by: snyprrr on June 13, 2012, 03:52:45 PM
I'm basically coming new to this set (with a cd with no liner notes :(), so, I'm just going to Post my reactions to each. Right now, the player is not important (but, it's a MOR choice).

No.1: Obviously, this is a Long One! My first reaction is as a... piano solo,... rhapsodic! in nature,... with a certain minor key slant that I translate as 'jamming' (yes, very illiterate right now :-[). It does seem long,... sometimes I thought we were on the next one, but, no,... still, I want to hear it again. I love the tickling treble octaves!

No.2: This ones much more condensed, with the same minor key 'base' as the first piece. Ah!, so THIS? is Gypsy Music? What, going from minor tonic to the 5th is Gypsy Music? Anyhow, at one point I must admit it sounded like bordello music. Still, again, it is fun to hear.

No.3: This one is much darker than the first two, and much shorter, @6mins. This one definitely makes you want to hear it again, much richer.

No.4: Haha, this one is quite exuberant, very Tickle-Mania! There's lots of up and down the keyboard. Again, the very 'earthy' dance melody gives a very peasant village hall feeling. It's the shortest one so far.

No.5: This one starts off real nice and dark and cool, with octave bass. Very nice! This sounds like something I'd improvise. Ah!, I see it's in 'E minor', haha, of course, my favorite 'Rock' key! Well, that explains it's familiarity. Hmm, we're halfway through and it hasn't picked up speed; it's a slow one. There is something slightly macabre,... a candlelit feeling, in a grotto,... under the Opera House... well, maybe not like that. Is this where Liberace was born? :-\

I'm going to guess this is one of the Popular Ones, haha. Mmm,... those bass notes are tasty! :P

No.6: Now we're back in Dance territory, a very stately one at that! I really like the festive tone here. Hmm,... Db Major, interesting. I can see how that black key bass note makes this piece... it sounds 'four square', like a barn dance or something,... ah, here comes the sad part! :'(

And now we have rhapsodized back to a different dance feel. I do like this stuff so far, very life affirming,... and, on top of that, you can tell it's Liszt, because the actual level of virtuosity is total. So many interesting sounds!

No.7: This has an overt 'gypsy' feel, like what I might think I'd hear in the gypsy village of a Hollywood film,... maybe not, but, a certain 'peasant' quality, rustic, folklore,... the rhythm is very rhapsodic,... yes, this has a certain 'film' quality to it. D minor.,... the 'gypsy violin' key?

No.8: A nice f# minor key. How did I ever miss this? This has "Liszt Rock Star' feel all over it, haha!

No.9: In the Classical key of Eb Major, a very capricious and rollicking good time with stateliness also. This is one of the longer ones. This one also has plenty of tinkling going on for most of the piece. I wonder if this is one of the Popular Ones, or is it too long perhaps?

No.10: Haha, in E Major, I expect it to burst into a barrelhouse rhythm. Perhaps the familiar key lends itself to the salon atmosphere. This one seems to have the most... uh.... 'Romantic'? feel to it? Again, the rhapsodic quality is there, and I do hear, I mean, what sounds like the kind of music Shostakovich would call 'Jewish'? I think of Bela Lugosi as the gypsy in 'The Wolfman'.

All of these pieces do exhibit an innate descriptiveness. As each piece grows on me, I am just struck by the multifaceted demeanor of all these pieces.

No.11: This one starts off with a plaintive 'O Sole Mio' type yearning. Ah, A minor! Yes, it has the descending pattern,... I think I've noodled my way through so of this in my life, haha! Then I feel we're back at the bordello, but then Liszt's 'fountain' music takes over. This one has a 'They Shoot Horses, Don't They', weary hooker feel, like a whorehouse in Louisiana? Hey, that's a compliment! ;) This is some Gothic schtuffe here; I'm thinking Fennimore Cooper... I smell something decaying around back! I can picture this being played in the American Western...

No.12: Haha, this one starts off like the famous Bach scary music! :D But I'm still feeling some of the 'Gothic' lingering from the previous one. This one is more of a minor key showpiece, Dracula/Liberace at the piano. I'd love to know what I would have thought of these back when I SHOULD have heard them. >:D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86): The 19 Hungarian Rhapsodies
Post by: snyprrr on June 13, 2012, 04:40:47 PM
No.9: In the Classical key of Eb Major, a very capricious and rollicking good time with stateliness also. This is one of the longer ones. This one also has plenty of tinkling going on for most of the piece. I wonder if this is one of the Popular Ones, or is it too long perhaps?

No.10: Haha, in E Major, I expect it to burst into a barrelhouse rhythm. Perhaps the familiar key lends itself to the salon atmosphere. This one seems to have the most... uh.... 'Romantic'? feel to it? Again, the rhapsodic quality is there, and I do hear, I mean, what sounds like the kind of music Shostakovich would call 'Jewish'? I think of Bela Lugosi as the gypsy in 'The Wolfman'.

All of these pieces do exhibit an innate descriptiveness. As each piece grows on me, I am just struck by the multifaceted demeanor of all these pieces.

No.11: This one starts off with a plaintive 'O Sole Mio' type yearning. Ah, A minor! Yes, it has the descending pattern,... I think I've noodled my way through so of this in my life, haha! Then I feel we're back at the bordello, but then Liszt's 'fountain' music takes over. This one has a 'They Shoot Horses, Don't They', weary hooker feel, like a whorehouse in Louisiana? Hey, that's a compliment! ;) This is some Gothic schtuffe here; I'm thinking Fennimore Cooper... I smell something decaying around back! I can picture this being played in the American Western...

No.12: Haha, this one starts off like the famous Bach scary music! :D But I'm still feeling some of the 'Gothic' lingering from the previous one. This one is more of a minor key showpiece, Dracula/Liberace at the piano. I'd love to know what I would have thought of these back when I SHOULD have heard them. >:D

No.13: I already know this is one of the Popular Ones, but it will be interesting to see how it stacks up to what I've heard so far. Well, it starts with what I would call the 'Transylvania' scale, or, I guess, the typical 'gypsy' scale (harmonic minor?). This one is definitely the outpouring of soul. Now it picks up with a slightly tipsy dance. I can't tell too much why this is so popular, I suppose the A minor? It's not that much different than some of them, though, there aren't too many slower ones so far. OK, it ends smashingly!

No.14: This one starts off in the darker key of f minor. I'm still feeling the barrelhouse/gypsy elements in the middle: I just seem to have heard this kind of stuff coming from the bar in the Western movie on TV? This is some earthy stuff, I'm surprised how much I like these pieces; there IS a cumulative effect going on at the same time. I'm just not tiring of hearing more. I really like how he... rhapsodically moves from one thing to the next, with witty asides along the way. This is one of the longer ones.

No.15: This one I know is famous. Well, it starts off imposingly enough! Oh, and now it is really banging along! I can immediately see why this one is famous. It sounds like a lot of fun. Liszt certainly 'invented' the deep bass run!

No.16: This one also starts off like a metal song, but settles into an a minor rumination, like a violin solo. It almost sounds as despairing as Late Liszt. It's interesting to compare these two a minor pieces side by side. Once again we visit the barrelhouse in the middle. It's amazing how this stuff reminds me of 'Gone with the Wind' Civil War era times. Well, it ends big,... I guess you can't tell where these 'rhapsodies' are going to go?

No.17: This one sounds pessimistic in its opening. It settles into a late night feel in d minor. I saw that Richter played this one. It is the shortest of the Cycle at 3mins. Haha, I keep thinking these things will settle into a quiet mood, but POW!, they all seem to explode at the end, and this one ends powerfully.

No.18: It opens moodily in f# minor. I think Liszt liked this key for that 'black key' minor key quality. It has the same kind of feel as the other f3 minor piece. It too builds to a climax, and is very short, but is much more subdued than the last piece.

No.19: Ah, finally, the last one. It starts off unassumingly in d minor. There's a nice tumble of notes early on. Again, it seems to settle into a slower rhythm, and again I hear the echoes of the whorehouse of the old west. This is one of the longer ones, and, at this point I couldn't distinguish this one from any of the other longers ones,... or, may most of them! Again, I have no notes, so I'm going blind; I wonder if this was a summing up piece? Still, it's as attractive as the rest of this wonderful program.

I'm a fan!
Title: Re: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86): The 19 Hungarian Rhapsodies
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 13, 2012, 05:01:59 PM
I'm a fan!

Cool!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: kishnevi on June 13, 2012, 06:30:46 PM
Just finished listening to the Harmonies Rel. et Poet.   and the Sonata played by FF Guy.  Don't  have another recording of the Harmonies to make a comparison, but the Sonata was well served, and  brought out the Beethovenian side (or maybe my imagination prompted by the six CDs worth of FFG playing Beethoven in my listening pile).

Re the Hungarian Rhapsodies--my only complete set is the one by Jando on Naxos, which took a while to grow on me, but which I like more every time I listen to it.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on June 14, 2012, 06:46:45 AM
Just finished listening to the Harmonies Rel. et Poet.   and the Sonata played by FF Guy.  Don't  have another recording of the Harmonies to make a comparison, but the Sonata was well served, and  brought out the Beethovenian side (or maybe my imagination prompted by the six CDs worth of FFG playing Beethoven in my listening pile).

Re the Hungarian Rhapsodies--my only complete set is the one by Jando on Naxos, which took a while to grow on me, but which I like more every time I listen to it.

I got Dichter on Philips. I gotta say, it's a corker! The sound, of course, has the Philips 'mark', and Dichter is scintillating. Cheep cheep!!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: nico1616 on June 14, 2012, 08:57:29 AM
In the 15 years that I listen to classical music, only one Liszt recording was regularly on my playlist: the Berman/Giulini DG piano concertos.
Thanks to the Karajan 60's box, I am now finally discovering some orchestral works. Mazeppa is certainly great and makes me wanting more :)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 14, 2012, 11:23:26 AM
Thanks to the Karajan 60's box, I am now finally discovering some orchestral works. Mazeppa is certainly great and makes me wanting more :)

Really glad to hear that, Liszt's orchestral works are absolutely outstanding! Besides Mazeppa, Karajan also recorded Les preludes and Tasso, Lamento e trionfo, I think the first one should be included in the 1960s set box.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: nico1616 on June 14, 2012, 12:56:29 PM
Really glad to hear that, Liszt's orchestral works are absolutely outstanding! Besides Mazeppa, Karajan also recorded Les preludes and Tasso, Lamento e trionfo, I think the first one should be included in the 1960s set box.

Les preludes is indeed included, so I may be in for another nice surprise :)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lisztianwagner on June 14, 2012, 01:13:36 PM
Les preludes is indeed included, so I may be in for another nice surprise :)

Great, I hope you will appreciate Les Preludes, as well as the other Liszt's orchestral piece included. :)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on June 19, 2012, 05:42:22 AM
I have just about reached the end of my Lisztomania. So far, I've got 12 cds, all with different pianists (except Howard twice) and have most all of the major pieces, all without the Sonata!

I gotta say that running into Liszt right now was just the thing for me. I have truly fallen in love with the man. He just IS everything one could probably want to be if one wanted to be what he was,...huh? ??? AND... he looks the part, too! ;)

I still can't get over how, no matter who the pianist, Liszt ALWAYS comes through,... because, well, does ANYONE write like him? The mere fact that just about every piece has the unmistakable, over the top virtuosity,... I never listen to the famous Liebstraume, but even that one has flourishes that probably dishearten many young players.

I've HEARD of disrespect for Liszt (Clara Schumann, etc.,...) but, come ON!,... WHO else is there that just seem to sweep up everything and spit it back at you in this way?


I am on the verge of buying LOTS of candles, finding a room, and turning it into my Dark Sanctuary,... where I can pretend I'M Liszt (it's still early,... haven't had enough tea yet, bwah ha ha),... or just an obsessed Lisztian.

Liszt just IS. End of story.



One of my favorite new discoveries is the Fantasy & Fugue on BACH. That is one powerful piece! And the piano version of the Totentanz makes me giddy! Ahhhh,.... so much good stuff! :o
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 19, 2012, 06:42:20 AM
Well, and what about the Sonata, hmmm?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on June 19, 2012, 09:41:47 AM
Well, and what about the Sonata, hmmm?

I don't know, I don't even want to hear it. I was going to list the 12 or so cds I picked recently, and I'm really pleased, and there is nary much overlap, and I got a very very wide selection because the artists all seemed to choose very personal recitals (though, the 'Gondolas' both come out on top in overlap,... meaning, I also tried to stay away from 'La Campanella', the 'Liebstraume', and such,... really, Liszt recitals are very interesting to decipher).

I did get the 'Grosses Konzertsolo', and whew!, it's definitely an Organ Symphony for Piano, haha! I'll say that I think I can smell Liszt from Busoni now,... nevermind...

'La Notte' is also the type of elegiac writing that  had been missing, along with the 'Elegies 1-2', and the like. But the more youthful stuff I like just as much, all the 'ridiculous' stuff I actually just find 'par', like i take it for granted.

But, the thing with Liszt for, and listening to all these 'devoted' souls channeling the muse, is, is that he alone has induced the 'Amadeus Giggles' in me! I guess having Guitar Heros before I had... well, it's just really retro on my part, but, still, I don't know how many guitar players hit my ears the way Liszt does.

Plus, I'm only guessing, but, I must be noticing a link between Liszt = Ravel = Xenakis,... the 'french' angle, perhaps?

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86): 3 Sonnets de Petrarque
Post by: snyprrr on June 26, 2012, 10:37:58 AM
As I'm coming newly again to Liszt, and picking and choosing the pieces i want to hear, I'm finding that he can be much more easy going than the barnstormers might reveal. Pieces like Waldesrauschen and Sposalizio and Au lac de Wallenstadt show us how poetic Liszt was. all the while having the chops to pull off anything that came to him, like the water fountain music.

I especially wasn't too familiar with the three Petrarch sonnets, and they seem to me to be 'Italian Rhapsodies'. So much of Liszt now sounds to me to have been Composed in a high tower, far away from the world. I can't imagine anyone not responding to a perfectly planned Liszt recital.

Perhaps ::) others are more eloquent?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: North Star on June 26, 2012, 12:53:41 PM
Snyprrr, get the Sonata. Now. Hamelin's recording is good, and never mind the overlap. Hamelin is unbelievable in the Tarantella.

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on June 27, 2012, 04:56:29 AM
Snyprrr, get the Sonata. Now. Hamelin's recording is good, and never mind the overlap. Hamelin is unbelievable in the Tarantella.



Doesn't Hough also have a Hyperion Sonata?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: North Star on June 27, 2012, 05:39:07 AM
Doesn't Hough also have a Hyperion Sonata?

Yes. Also Demidenko (studio & live, AFAIK) and Howard.

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Madiel on September 08, 2012, 08:45:44 PM
Okay, so I'm looking at a box of the symphonic poems...

But while looking for reviews, half the time I just find back-handed remarks about the music, not the performances.  There certainly seem to be a lot of people out there who aren't fond of many of the poems.

And as a person who isn't Liszt's biggest fan, this makes me a bit nervous.  I tend to like to hear structure in my music.

The box, by the way, is Kurt Masur. 13 symphonic poems, Dante Symphony, Faust Symphony and 2 episodes from Faust.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: eyeresist on September 09, 2012, 05:03:09 PM
The box, by the way, is Kurt Masur. 13 symphonic poems, Dante Symphony, Faust Symphony and 2 episodes from Faust.

I have the Masur box and think it's excellent. He's especially worthwhile in the less known works. His approach is vigorous but basically classical - he doesn't let the music drag. Admittedly I haven't heard Haitink or Joo, but most reviews say Masur is preferable (the exception being that nut on Amazon who seems to have a personal vendetta against Masur).
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: ruramikael on September 12, 2012, 12:42:37 PM
As for Masur, I find the dynamics unbalanced in the symphonic poems (woodwind dominating over strings and brass in Prometheus, for instance). I have not heard his Faust, Dante and the 2 episodes.
Joo is still the best, but I have not heard Haitink in many years. For Faust, go for Dorati (especially the 1st and 2 movement). In Dante, Lopez-Cobos has the edge (Decca c/w Solti's Faust).

I will also buy a CD with Haselbock conducting symphonic poems (The Sound of Weimar), I attended two concerts in Raiding, and it was overwhelming!

/Mikael
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: eyeresist on September 12, 2012, 05:05:20 PM
As for Masur, I find the dynamics unbalanced in the symphonic poems (woodwind dominating over strings and brass in Prometheus, for instance).

Maybe there's something wrong with your sound system? Maybe you just dislike winds? I've just listened to that recording and it sounds fine.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: ruramikael on September 13, 2012, 12:18:33 PM
Maybe there's something wrong with your sound system? Maybe you just dislike winds? I've just listened to that recording and it sounds fine.
It could be that I listened to the LP box, but it was the same with the Masur/Beroff recording of the works for piano and orchestra. Masur takes a classicist approach to romantic music. But I also suspect the sound engineer :-\. I will give it a new try (on Youtube).
Noseda (on Chandos) is very uneven, I expected a lot from him  ???

/Mikael
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Madiel on September 14, 2012, 01:50:21 AM
Masur takes a classicist approach to romantic music.

Given some of the remarks I've seen about Liszt's symphonic poems, this sounds to me like a recommendation!
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: eyeresist on September 14, 2012, 02:24:58 AM
Given some of the remarks I've seen about Liszt's symphonic poems, this sounds to me like a recommendation!

Exactly ;)

It's important to remember that, while he was a vital influence on Late Romantic music, Liszt himself was from an earlier period. He wrote most of the tone poems in the period 1848-58. Brahms didn't finish his 1st symphony until almost 20 years later!

Anyway, it's not as though Masur plays the music without expression. He just doesn't pull it around as much as late Bernstein. He takes a few of the pieces at tempos faster than we might be used to (e.g. Faust's Gretchen, the Heroide Funebre), but only in Orpheus do I feel he's really missing anything.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 14, 2012, 03:46:16 AM
As for Masur, I find the dynamics unbalanced in the symphonic poems (woodwind dominating over strings and brass in Prometheus, for instance).

I just listened to Masur, Joo, Solti, Halász, and Haitink's Prometheus. I hear what you hear in Masur's Prometheus: jumbo winds that bury some brass detail. Sounds a bit artificial, like an engineer was fiddling with the controls. Haitink has the more pleasing, natural orchestral balance. On the plus side, those fast ostinato woodwind notes, amplified and very prominent in Masur's recording, drive the music forward thrillingly.

I've just listened to that recording and it sounds fine.

On its own, yes, it sounds fine. Even compared to Haitink it sounds fine but the instrumental balance is very different and, to my ears, slightly artificial. Which recording is best depends on whether one prefers winds or brass, I guess.

Sarge
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: eyeresist on September 16, 2012, 04:09:49 PM
I just listened to Masur, Joo, Solti, Halász, and Haitink's Prometheus. I hear what you hear in Masur's Prometheus: jumbo winds that bury some brass detail. Sounds a bit artificial, like an engineer was fiddling with the controls. Haitink has the more pleasing, natural orchestral balance. On the plus side, those fast ostinato woodwind notes, amplified and very prominent in Masur's recording, drive the music forward thrillingly.

On its own, yes, it sounds fine. Even compared to Haitink it sounds fine but the instrumental balance is very different and, to my ears, slightly artificial. Which recording is best depends on whether one prefers winds or brass, I guess.

OK, as I don't have Haitink I will take your word for that. I like winds :)

Do you have the entire Joo set, and if so could you give a quick assessment of it? Many thanks.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Madiel on October 03, 2012, 03:39:47 AM
Hi-ho.  The box of Masur symphonic poems, as someone suspected (I think it was eyesresist, though not on this thread), was indeed the French edition of the box.

With only French text about the symphonic poems.  A bit of typing into Google Translate may be in order.

But guess which text they saw fit to translate into English?  The copyright information and the dire threats about breaching copyright.

Got to love a sense of well-balanced priorities.  ::)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: jlaurson on October 04, 2012, 03:51:46 AM

question: how did you find -- assuming you've found time to listen to them -- the English Pellerinage traversal on the Erard?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 04, 2012, 04:35:39 AM
But guess which text they saw fit to translate into English?  The copyright information and the dire threats about breaching copyright.

Well, the English for that boilerplate text is readily available, to be sure.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: CriticalI on October 04, 2012, 04:29:39 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphonic_poems_(Liszt)

Plus individual entries for over half the tone poems.

Bearing in mind of course that, according to Wikipedia, Franz Liszt was over 10.5 miles tall ;)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Madiel on October 04, 2012, 06:25:20 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphonic_poems_(Liszt)

Plus individual entries for over half the tone poems.

Bearing in mind of course that, according to Wikipedia, Franz Liszt was over 10.5 miles tall ;)

Cheers, found that last night as I embarked on Ce quo'on entend sur la montagne.

The text in the box set is absurdly limited anyway.  Even with my weak grasp of French (being aided somewhat at the moment by investigating the songs of Faure), I can tell there's no more than a sentence or two per poem.

I often find one of the best sources for some background on a piece is Classical Archives.  They take all the information from All Music Guide, but it's presented in a much more accessible format, and accessing the text is completely free - there's no need to sign up to their listening service in order to read.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 13, 2012, 07:56:10 PM
Just thought I'd say the piano concertos have been big favourites of mine for over 40 years and, after sticking with François-Fistoulari for all that time, I've found Cliburn-Ormandy to be just as good, but only in reverse.  Zimerman-Ozawa are crushed. And Richter-Kondrashin have also met their match.

Cliburn is one mean pianist, and Ormandy is a jaw-dropping lisztian. By golly, this is vibrant, exciting music-making !
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: CriticalI on October 14, 2012, 04:44:28 PM
Just thought I'd say the piano concertos have been big favourites of mine for over 40 years and, after sticking with François-Fistoulari for all that time, I've found Cliburn-Ormandy to be just as good, but only in reverse.

Sorry, what did you mean by that last part?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 14, 2012, 06:01:13 PM
Right. Not exactly clear. The François-Fistoulari is IMHO one of the most scintillating and expressive collaborations I've heard in these works. The pianist is clearly the driving musical spirit, with the excellent Fistoulari a willing and enthusiastic collaborator. In the case of Cliburn-Ormandy I was struck at how just equally good the end result was. Except that Ormandy (a Hungarian himself) is clearly having an orgasmic release playing this music. Cliburn is a truly exceptional pianist (nothing less will do), but as a musician he is happy to follow the master.

A concerto is a collaboration. Whether the main artistic impulse stems from the soloist or conductor is for them to decide. In this case the result is equally valid, but the perspective shifts noticeably.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: CriticalI on October 14, 2012, 06:23:07 PM
I thought that MIGHT be what you meant, but couldn't be sure - thanks for the clarification, Andre :)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 21, 2012, 10:46:20 AM
Thanks to Sara for reminding me of Christus.  No idea how it compares to other recordings, but seeing the Conlon / Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra / Slovak Philharmonic Choir recording on Apex, I was lured by the attractive risk :: reward profile.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Lethevich on December 21, 2012, 02:29:53 PM
While I haven't heard that recording (mine are Rilling, and Sólyom-Nagy) Conlon did a nice Dante Symphony with the same orchestra.

Does anybody else like Golovanov in the symphonic poems? (Half of his Great Conductors of the 20th Century two CD set is dedicated to them.)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86): HELP!!!
Post by: Mandryka on December 21, 2012, 11:03:56 PM
I need the support of the most rabid Liszt-o-maniacs. WHERE on this site can I find people who ONLY exist to COMMAND me to buy the BEST Liszt. I mean, this Thread leaves a LOT to be desired for just a plain Liszt Thread, but the Recordings Threads aren't much better. Who, who, WHO will clear these up for me?:

Volodos (Sony)
Rudy (EMI)
Andsnes (EMI)
Duchable (Erato)
Hamelin (Hyperion)
Perehia (Sony)
Cherkasky Funerailles (Nimbus)
Katsaris Waltzes (Teldec)
Watt (EMI) 2
Chui (HM)

and

Kempff (DG)
Friere (Decca)
Bolet 'Rediscovered' (RCA)


I started my current Lisztmania with the Campanella disc of Late Pieces, and have ordered the Hough 'box' on Virgin. I am more concerned with hearing different, incredible players, rather than collecting Liszt, though surely I will also be rediscovering most of this music after 20 years.

Any lost, well recorded, jaw droppers?...


There hasn't even been a discussion over Bolet vs. Arrau...


and PLEASE, what of Barenboim's Annees 1 (DG)?

Here's my Liszt starter pack:

>
> 1. Reinbert de Leeuw's Via Crucis
> 2  Janos Ferencsik's Requiem
> 3. Arpad Joo's St Elizabeth
> 4. Nikolai Gedda Lieder (3 vols)
> 5. Nyiregyhazi's LP with the threnodies (I can let you have a transfer)
> 6  Mykola Suk's Hungarian Rhapsodies
> 7. Roger Woodward's Beethoven/Liszt Eroica (I can let you have a transfer)
> 8. Padrone's Schubert/Liszt
> 9. Nikolai Petrov's  Berlioz /LisztSymphony Fantastique
> 10.Kemal Gekic  Dante Sonata
>


Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 26, 2012, 12:10:21 PM
Browsing through Liszt's œuvre, something or other invariably catches my attention. This time:

S.6, Die Glocken des Strassburger Münsters (Longfellow) (1874)

 
. . . in "sacred choral works" (apparently a little broadly interpreted).
 
Anyone know anything of this?  To be sure, I am right away intrigued by a Big Name composer of that era setting an American poet . . . .
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: 71 dB on September 26, 2013, 12:37:11 AM
Ever since I got into classical music 15+ years ago I have had a sort of ignorant abhorrence toward Liszt without even hearing his music. Yeah, maybe I heard some piano works by him, but at that time I wasn't into solo piano music much. Liszt in his 30s and 40s looks more of a self-contained casanova than a serious composer/artist. The only "positive" thing I knew about Liszt was that he was a major influence to Elgar. Yes, my judgement of Liszt have been stupid and extremely superficial. We all have such judgement of something.

So, now I have "discovered" Liszt. I was borrowed a recording of Liszt's Piano Sonata and after hearing it I had to change my opinion about Liszt completely! It helped that nowadays I enjoy solo piano music more than 15 years ago. Yes, I can hear "proto-Elgar" in Liszt's music. The mood is similar. I can't explain this similarity well, Elgar's and Liszt's music have "depth" that extents beyond the walls of the room where the music is performed. Also, there two composers are able to render very different emotions simultaneously. The music can be comforting and dramatic at the same time. I really like this and maybe it's why I am an Elgarian in the first place.

I seem to prefer Liszt's solo piano music over his orchestral output. Perhaps Liszt wasn't that innovative to bring his orchestrations to the same level he was able to reach in his piano music? Anyway, I find his orchestral music "modern" for a composer born in 1811. At this point I only have his Faust Symphony (struggling a bit with this) and Piano Concertos (I prefer the 2nd). Just order a disc of Symphonic Poems.

Liszt's solo piano output is huge and intimidating. I have Années de Pèlerinage Vol. 2 and just ordered Vol. 3. (these are cheap £0.01 Naxos discs played by Jenö Jandó). Gretchen sounds fantastic on piano, I almost prefer it to the orchestral version. Liszt may not become one of my top 10 composers, but he is without a doubt one of my favorite composers of piano music.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Octave on September 26, 2013, 12:42:53 AM
Thanks for that post; I have had a similar experience, and a similar prejudice washed away. 
Just a couple weeks ago I revisited a "Late Pieces" disc on Zigzag, with Immerseel and Istomin, and it was even better than when I first listened to it.  Same with Zoltan Kocsis' 3rd book of the ANNEES.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: bwv 1080 on April 09, 2014, 05:34:30 AM
Thoughts on FL's vocal music?  have a huge swath of it on the DG box set but not sure if its worth the time investment
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: edward on April 09, 2014, 04:45:02 PM
Thoughts on FL's vocal music?  have a huge swath of it on the DG box set but not sure if its worth the time investment
Via crucis is absolutely astonishing, IMO.

Almost proto-Satie (OK, it's probably more to do with chant than Satie) and the DG box has a great recording of it under Reinbert de Leeuw.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: kishnevi on April 09, 2014, 05:06:41 PM
Yes, at least for Via Crucis.  You will find that Liszt made a rich tasting fudge that can remain satisfying to the taste for quite some time, compared to other fudge makers.

(If this comment seems weird, it means you haven't been visiting the WAYLT thread lately.)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Moonfish on April 09, 2014, 10:37:51 PM
Being a big fan of Années de pèlerinage I am curious about which pianists GMG members listen to when it comes to Liszt. Personally I gravitate towards Berman, Bolet and Arrau. Still, which pianist do you view as having the recorded the most magical performance of Années de pèlerinage to date?

(http://publicdomainreview.org/files/2011/10/liszt-painting-detail.jpg)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Mandryka on April 09, 2014, 10:46:19 PM
Being a big fan of Années de pèlerinage I am curious about which pianists GMG members listen to when it comes to Liszt. Personally I gravitate towards Berman, Bolet and Arrau. Still, which pianist do you view as having the recorded the most magical performance of Années de pèlerinage to date?

(http://publicdomainreview.org/files/2011/10/liszt-painting-detail.jpg)

My favourite threnody pianist is Ervin Nyiregyhazi. If they're not on youtube let me know an I'll PM you the FLACs. For the Dante Sonata then I like Sofronitsky a lot, despite the bad sound. For the Petrarchan Sonets I would probably choose Weissenberg.

There's a live CD by Ogdon which is magical -- from a concrt in Japan. I can'rt recall if there's any Années in it.
 
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Octave on April 09, 2014, 10:50:09 PM
Being a big fan of Années de pèlerinage I am curious about which pianists GMG members listen to when it comes to Liszt. Personally I gravitate towards Berman, Bolet and Arrau. Still, which pianist do you view as having the recorded the most magical performance of Années de pèlerinage to date?

I have spent the most time with your points of reference (though I think all I know of Arrau's is Books 1 & 2). 
I found Kempff's (incomplete) account really distinctive.  Likewise a Philips twofer with Brendel's Books 1/2 and Kocsis' Book 3.   (This latter, the Kocsis, was especially beautiful.)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Octave on April 09, 2014, 10:55:51 PM
There's a live CD by Ogdon which is magical -- from a concrt in Japan. I can'rt recall if there's any Années in it.

I think I have heard of this one...is it this?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415BWNJ4H8L.jpg)
ASIN: B000BV7T3O  (apparently OOP, maybe in that forthcoming Sony collection, edit: it is.)

Except I am not sure this is a live one.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Mandryka on April 09, 2014, 11:15:58 PM
I think I have heard of this one...is it this?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415BWNJ4H8L.jpg)
ASIN: B000BV7T3O  (apparently OOP, maybe in that forthcoming Sony collection, edit: it is.)

Except I am not sure this is a live one.

Yes. That's the one.

I forgot to mention that another pianist I enjoy in the Annees is Jerome Lowenthal.

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 10, 2014, 03:17:06 AM
Via crucis is absolutely astonishing, IMO.

Almost proto-Satie (OK, it's probably more to do with chant than Satie) and the DG box has a great recording of it under Reinbert de Leeuw.

Yes, an organic extension of plainchant . . . in comparison, though of a similar conception, the Duruflé Requiem (exquisite work that it is) appears almost heavy-handed.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Mandryka on April 10, 2014, 04:33:06 AM
The other religious choral thing that I like sometimes is the Requiem, I have a recording by the Hungarian Male People's Chorus. ANyway, I can assure you that when you're in the mood it's great fun even though more often as not it outstays its welcome.

I can't take Liszt seriously any more. I just listen to some of the Annees and I thought to myself that all those tremolos are just like my old auntie Edith -- she used to have candlesticks screwed onto the piano and antimacassars on the winged arm chairs and . . . 
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 10, 2014, 04:46:29 AM
I can't take Liszt seriously any more.

Thank you for conceding that the failing is yours.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Todd on April 10, 2014, 06:01:50 AM
Still, which pianist do you view as having the recorded the most magical performance of Années de pèlerinage to date?



While it's my newest version of the complete Annees, therefore meaning that it may just be enthusiasm for the new influencing my view, Mûza Rubackyté's recording is possibly my favorite.  She can and does play with outright virtuosity when needed, but a lot of her playing is delicate and beautiful.  Top flight sound helps, too.

(http://www.mvdaily.com/articles/2005/07/lyr2216.jpg)


Another modern recording of note is Bertrand Chamayou, whose style is sleek and virtuosic, and his playing and the recording make the work sound even larger in scale.  Among the old guard I've heard, Bolet is still magnificent.  I do wish he would have recorded the third book.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 10, 2014, 11:00:07 AM
Being a big fan of Années de pèlerinage I am curious about which pianists GMG members listen to when it comes to Liszt. Personally I gravitate towards Berman, Bolet and Arrau. Still, which pianist do you view as having the recorded the most magical performance of Années de pèlerinage to date?

For Liszt in general the pianists I like are: Fiorentino, Richter, early Bolet (not the Decca Bolet), Cziffra, Kocsis, Ovchinnikov, Gilels, and Katchen.

As far as Arrau, I have his Transcendental Etudes but the sheer poetry of Bolet (1970) puts it atop my list for this work.

Berman's Années is good but for sizzling acrobatics and poetic daring a mixture of Fiorentino and Kocsis is my go-to.




(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/152/MI0001152462.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)



Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: epicous on July 31, 2014, 07:31:45 AM
Today, Franz Liszt died: 31th July, 1886.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Brian on February 13, 2015, 10:13:33 AM
Listened today from William Tell up to the end of the Dante Sonata. The rest tomorrow. Detailed comments eventually, but the music is surprisingly good. Better than I would have expected Liszt to be actually.
I'm having a Lisztaissance myself the past couple months, and Liszt's music is not the stupid pointless banging I remembered. Annees is really pretty extraordinary, and there are other great things too (Harmonies poétiques et religieuses, some late works). Bringing the Sergio Fiorentino 6CD Liszt box on a road trip starting today.

Looking forward to more of your comments.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Dax on February 13, 2015, 10:20:30 AM
Does anybody know of a good performance/recording of some of the psalms?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: amw on February 14, 2015, 01:45:58 AM
I'm having a Lisztaissance myself the past couple months, and Liszt's music is not the stupid pointless banging I remembered. Annees is really pretty extraordinary, and there are other great things too (Harmonies poétiques et religieuses, some late works). Bringing the Sergio Fiorentino 6CD Liszt box on a road trip starting today.

Looking forward to more of your comments.
Finished off with Venezia e Napoli and Book III today. Venezia e Napoli actually was my favourite part of the Années, until we got to Villa d'Este Threnody II (hey, someone actually made good music out of the Tristan theme! 8) Well, I suppose Berg did too, later on). But overall I would say the cycle displays better craftsmanship than's usually been ascribed to Liszt. I think I'll be checking out some more of his music now. (Again, detailed comments eventually. This is a placeholder.)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Michael Sayers on June 09, 2015, 11:32:12 AM
I am wondering if anyone here knows about the content of Franz Liszt's letters to Jessie Laussot.  I've tried without success to get a copy of this paper from two years ago, but maybe someone here has read it.

http://www.academia.edu/4760771/New_Liszt_Letters_to_Jessie_Laussot (http://www.academia.edu/4760771/New_Liszt_Letters_to_Jessie_Laussot)


Mvh,
Michael
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: San Antone on June 09, 2015, 11:41:18 AM
I am wondering if anyone here knows about the content of Franz Liszt's letters to Jessie Laussot.  I've tried without success to get a copy of this paper from two years ago, but maybe someone here has read it.

http://www.academia.edu/4760771/New_Liszt_Letters_to_Jessie_Laussot (http://www.academia.edu/4760771/New_Liszt_Letters_to_Jessie_Laussot)


Mvh,
Michael

You can find some of them in Letters of Franz Liszt, Volume 2 - which has been uploaded into Google Books.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Michael Sayers on June 10, 2015, 12:39:32 AM
You can find some of them in Letters of Franz Liszt, Volume 2 - which has been uploaded into Google Books.
Thanks Sanantonio!


Mvh,
Michael
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Michael Sayers on June 10, 2015, 12:52:23 AM
What do you all think about Ervin Nyiregyhazi's playing of Liszt?  As an example, this is his recording of the B Minor Ballade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5XXiIxC73E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5XXiIxC73E)


Mvh,
Michael
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: San Antone on June 10, 2015, 09:04:46 AM
Franz Liszt : Reconsidered

(https://musicakaleidoscope.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/liszt01.jpg?w=333&h=455)

Franz Liszt’s life would make a great movie.  He was arguably the greatest pianist in history, for many years he lived as a virtuoso performing all across Europe and having a few scandalous (for the period) love affairs in the process.  Then at the height of his fame, he retired abruptly from the concert stage choosing to live in partial seclusion devoted to composition and finally taking lower orders in the Catholic Church, ending his life as an Abbé.

Liszt was a tireless promoter of other composers, among them Wagner (especially during his long exile from Germany and its music scene), and Berlioz, as well as proselytizing styles from the past such as Bach's sacred music and Gregorian chant. His operatic transcriptions were a unique way of promoting new music and his piano reductions of Beethoven symphonies brought these works to places where they might not have been heard. Although he was a target in the so-called "music wars" of the 19th century, he was not a participant and was gracious when meeting with Brahms, much more so than Brahms was towards him.

His wrote some of the most technically demanding music for the piano, innovative music for orchestra, and spiritually sublime music for organ and choir.  His influence was huge, however, for decades his impact as a composer has been undervalued, if not ignored entirely.

RTRH (https://musicakaleidoscope.wordpress.com/2015/06/10/franz-liszt-reconsidered/)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: jlaurson on June 11, 2015, 12:32:52 AM
Franz Liszt : Reconsidered

Franz Liszt’s life would make a great movie. 

Liszt DID inspire movies... although not great movies, admittedly. There is one I saw, on allegedly the last usable print in existence, and with terrible decoloration into red, that was hilarious and lovely and had very little to do with Liszt's actual life... but it did have a soundtrack performed entirely by Jorge Bolet (!) and it featured Capucine, which makes any film very much worth watching.

Ah, yes: Song without End. https://youtu.be/aN57V6ZVtMs (https://youtu.be/aN57V6ZVtMs)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: San Antone on June 11, 2015, 01:40:26 AM
Liszt DID inspire movies... although not great movies, admittedly. There is one I saw, on allegedly the last usable print in existence, and with terrible decoloration into red, that was hilarious and lovely and had very little to do with Liszt's actual life... but it did have a soundtrack performed entirely by Jorge Bolet (!) and it featured Capucine, which makes any film very much worth watching.

Ah, yes: Song without End. https://youtu.be/aN57V6ZVtMs (https://youtu.be/aN57V6ZVtMs)

I thought there must have been but was too lazy to Google it. 

 ;)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Moonfish on July 17, 2015, 11:44:59 PM
I thought this was intriguing....Malcolm Binns

https://www.youtube.com/v/g5tBA05baXI
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: jlaurson on March 07, 2016, 02:13:18 PM
Latest on Forbes.com:
Classical CD Of The Week: Liszt Inspections (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/03/02/classical-cd-of-the-week-liszt-inspections-2/#2202ad6627f0)

Liszt Inspections, Marino Formenti (piano), Kairos

A gentle small-scale giant of music who doesn’t distinguish between “contemporary” and established, Marino Formenti has the preternatural ability to make any music sound weird.

(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/02/Forbes_Classica-CD-of-the-Week_KARUS_Liszt-Inspections_Formenti1200-1200x469.jpg)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/03/02/classical-cd-of-the-week-liszt-inspections-2/#2202ad6627f0 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/03/02/classical-cd-of-the-week-liszt-inspections-2/#2202ad6627f0)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Artem on April 09, 2016, 04:48:46 PM
I've been listening almost on repeat Six Consolations, S172 from the following disk:



Does anybody like these pieces too? Are they considered less characteristic of Liszt's compositional style?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: aligreto on July 30, 2016, 07:31:34 AM
For me The Liszt Tone Poems contain exciting, dramatic and illustrative music that is well written and well scored. The orchestral colour prevailing throughout these works makes for a wonderful listening experience. This all results in great picture painting with sound.

I have two complete sets; Masur and Haitink....


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519TNvg74hL._SX300_.jpg) (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0002/925/MI0002925733.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)


I also have a Naxos CD which contains four Tone Poems....


(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/979/MI0000979547.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)


and another CD containing the Faust Symphony and one Tone Poem under Noseda whom I may investigate further after I get to listen to this recent purchase…


(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/124/MI0001124046.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)



I have already ordered the van Immerseel/Anima Eterna CD which contains two Tone Poems....


(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/VgaHC_ozkWq-kxBEBocvMYHroG-Dbx4W6-huZ3vxOb4ab_qOq3xHYgucF7Y5fsDFgtQNBU1lsQ=w300)



So, focusing specifically on the Tone Poems, are there any other performances that I should be considering?


Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on July 30, 2016, 12:24:13 PM
i think Solti's London Philharminic recordings especially of Les Preludes are essential. The playing is not refined but it suits this music well. Solti's expansive readings are rather unusual for him.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Scion7 on July 31, 2016, 06:28:55 AM
Technically, they are not well-scored ... Liszt's orchestration is the sort of thing that would give geniuses like Brahms or Mahler nightmares   :D  ... but the tone poems are triumphs of musicianship/ideas over technical ability.

(https://img.discogs.com/dZx7jAesuauv6NW6q--LQBMEG2A=/fit-in/600x604/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-5102393-1384544946-2295.jpeg.jpg)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: aligreto on July 31, 2016, 09:08:41 AM
i think Solti's London Philharminic recordings especially of Les Preludes are essential. The playing is not refined but it suits this music well. Solti's expansive readings are rather unusual for him.

Thank you for that; I will check those out soon  :)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: aligreto on July 31, 2016, 09:11:07 AM
Technically, they are not well-scored ... Liszt's orchestration is the sort of thing that would give geniuses like Brahms or Mahler nightmares   :D  ... but the tone poems are triumphs of musicianship/ideas over technical ability.

(https://img.discogs.com/dZx7jAesuauv6NW6q--LQBMEG2A=/fit-in/600x604/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-5102393-1384544946-2295.jpeg.jpg)

I like the scoring I must say although, as you say, not at the Mahler level. Thank you for the Muti recommendation  :)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86) RECOMMEND ME 3 PIANO WORKS
Post by: snyprrr on March 24, 2018, 08:08:07 AM
I think I logged my collection here previously; but, I have a lot, and I want to listen to some Liszt in preparation for this Debussy PM Cycle to arrive...

Can you recommend me a few things please? I'm really not in the mood to listen to two discs worth of Hungarian Rh. (are there two you love?), and I just can't figure where to start, ProtoImpressionism??

or I might have to start with the Bagatelle w/o Tonality...??...

Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86) RECOMMEND ME 3 PIANO WORKS
Post by: Florestan on March 24, 2018, 08:45:11 AM
I just can't figure where to start, ProtoImpressionism??

The usual suspects will do in this case: Au bord d'une source, Les jeux d'eaux à la Villa d'Este, Nuages gris.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on March 24, 2018, 11:00:12 AM
Can you recommend me a few things please? I'm really not in the mood to listen to two discs worth of Hungarian Rh. (are there two you love?), and I just can't figure where to start, ProtoImpressionism??

What's wrong with the HRs? The "the famous one" may be overplayed, but on the whole they're startlingly worthwhile works. That said, try any of the late HRs. Late Liszt is like no other Liszt.

Quote
or I might have to start with the Bagatelle w/o Tonality...??...

Yep, great work. Go for it, or just go with Florestan's list.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 25, 2018, 09:50:47 PM
So, focusing specifically on the Tone Poems, are there any other performances that I should be considering?

As far as I'm concerned, if you have Haitink, you're done.  :)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 26, 2018, 04:26:42 AM
As far as I'm concerned, if you have Haitink, you're done.  :)

The case is strong  8)

I think I logged my collection here previously; but, I have a lot, and I want to listen to some Liszt in preparation for this Debussy PM Cycle to arrive...

Can you recommend me a few things please?

Les cloches de Genève
Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen
Valses oubliées
Csárdás macabre
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: ritter on March 26, 2018, 05:22:36 AM
I'd suggest the late stuff, if I may: La lugubre gondola I & II, Unstern! (Sinistre, disastro), RW Venezia, etc. And the little jewel that is In festo transfigurationis Domini nostri Jesu Christi.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86) RECOMMEND ME 3 PIANO WORKS
Post by: snyprrr on March 26, 2018, 06:47:09 AM
I'd suggest the late stuff, if I may: La lugubre gondola I & II, Unstern! (Sinistre, disastro), RW Venezia, etc. And the little jewel that is In festo transfigurationis Domini nostri Jesu Christi.
The usual suspects will do in this case: Au bord d'une source, Les jeux d'eaux à la Villa d'Este, Nuages gris.
The case is strong  8)

Les cloches de Genève
Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen
Valses oubliées
Csárdás macabre

What's wrong with the HRs? The "the famous one" may be overplayed, but on the whole they're startlingly worthwhile works. That said, try any of the late HRs. Late Liszt is like no other Liszt.

Yep, great work. Go for it, or just go with Florestan's list.

Thx, all good and meaty bits...

Nothing against the HRs, just so many of them!!


Debussy... Liszt... Satie... oy, I've painted myself into a corner!! If I start on Scriabin, SOMEBODY STOP ME!!! (or Grieg!!)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86) RECOMMEND ME 3 PIANO WORKS
Post by: snyprrr on March 26, 2018, 06:47:22 AM
I'd suggest the late stuff, if I may: La lugubre gondola I & II, Unstern! (Sinistre, disastro), RW Venezia, etc. And the little jewel that is In festo transfigurationis Domini nostri Jesu Christi.
The usual suspects will do in this case: Au bord d'une source, Les jeux d'eaux à la Villa d'Este, Nuages gris.
The case is strong  8)

Les cloches de Genève
Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen
Valses oubliées
Csárdás macabre

What's wrong with the HRs? The "the famous one" may be overplayed, but on the whole they're startlingly worthwhile works. That said, try any of the late HRs. Late Liszt is like no other Liszt.

Yep, great work. Go for it, or just go with Florestan's list.

Thx, all good and meaty bits...

Nothing against the HRs, just so many of them!!


Debussy... Liszt... Satie... oy, I've painted myself into a corner!! If I start on Scriabin, SOMEBODY STOP ME!!! (or Grieg!!)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: snyprrr on March 27, 2018, 07:04:00 AM
So far, I've listened to


Nuagis Gris (Cohen/Naxos): I think I actually only HEARD 17%... is it supposed to be soooo quiet? Liszt likes those "evil" minor seconds, huh?

Klavierstuck?? "Nocturne" (Cohen/Naxos): French Composers=Nice, Liszt=Creepy... maybe it's the preponderance of minor seconds that I'm reacting against?

Bagatelle sans Tonalite (Katsarsis/Teldec): I think I like the piano playing more than the music-makes me want to hear Schoenberg

last Mephisto Waltz (Katsarsis): more of the same... Liszt seems to revel in the "big fingers",... the French not so much?



Yea, I'm not ready for the depressing Late Liszt right now,... will need some fountains and birds soon...


oh... and the Klangen, Sorben thing... more "evil" sounding heavy metal... I forgot how Rad Liszt was!! truly a Rock Star! However, apparently I'm in a more limp French mode at the moment... flasque...lol,,, flaccid...
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: aligreto on March 27, 2018, 08:17:54 AM
As far as I'm concerned, if you have Haitink, you're done.  :)

I have and enjoy the Haitink set so I am OK  8)


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71uJE5k8t5L._SL1400_.jpg)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: pjme on August 28, 2018, 12:18:46 AM
Possibly this has been mentioned already on GMG, but during the weekend I read an article in Die Welt about the premiere of "Sardanapalo".

I hope to listen to the radiobroadcast.

Here is some info:

Liszt spent nearly seven years on an Italianate opera, Sardanapalo, based on Lord Byron's tragedy of 1821. Working intermittently on the project, he abandoned an incomplete continuous draft in 1852 shortly after conducting Wagner's Tannhäuser and Lohengrin in Weimar.
The surviving music constitutes the entirety of Act 1, given in various degrees of shorthand notation.
The style is a unique mixture of Italianate pastiche and mid-century harmonic innovation.

Source: https://www.davidtrippett.com/sardanapalus

https://www.welt.de/kultur/buehne-konzert/article181329434/Urauffuehrung-von-Sardanapalo-So-gut-ist-die-bisher-unbekannte-Oper-von-Franz-Liszt.html
"Audite aber hat jetzt dieses Liszt-Fragment für CD aufgezeichnet, Deutschlandradio sendet es am 8. September."

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/aug/17/sardanapalo-lost-liszt-opera-premiered

And

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEqRAdUEO2E&feature=youtu.be

P.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/Eug%C3%A8ne_Delacroix_-_La_Mort_de_Sardanapale.jpg/1280px-Eug%C3%A8ne_Delacroix_-_La_Mort_de_Sardanapale.jpg)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Maestro267 on February 07, 2019, 11:55:57 AM
Listening to the huge Faust Symphony, and I find my mind tends to wander away from the music during the second movement, Gretchen. It's pleasant enough and makes for contrast, but at 23 minutes it goes on for a bit considering not an awful lot happens.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: SymphonicAddict on February 07, 2019, 01:15:13 PM
Listening to the huge Faust Symphony, and I find my mind tends to wander away from the music during the second movement, Gretchen. It's pleasant enough and makes for contrast, but at 23 minutes it goes on for a bit considering not an awful lot happens.

I share your view about the Gretchen movement. Faust and Mephistopheles are quite satisfying, whilst Gretchen is kind of close to dullness.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on February 08, 2019, 04:30:32 AM
I share your view about the Gretchen movement. Faust and Mephistopheles are quite satisfying, whilst Gretchen is kind of close to dullness.
I would say Liszt got it right musically. Gretchen is quite dull in real life, and a bit long-winded.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Florestan on February 08, 2019, 04:41:46 AM
I would say Liszt got it right musically. Gretchen is quite dull in real life, and a bit long-winded.

This is what Saint-Saens wrote about this very topic:

The fact is that the Gretchen of the famous poem is not some virgin found in a missal or a stained glass window,  the  ideal  of   a  man’s  dreams,  encountered  at  last;  Gretchen  is Margot, and the cloth she spins could be used to make Victor Hugo’s “radiant floorcloths”. Faust has spent his life bent over his learned books and test tubes, never experiencing love; now he is restored to adolescence and the first girl he comes across seems like a goddess. She talks to him about the house, the housekeeping and the most mundane things, and he is  enchanted.  It’s  a  slice  of   nature:  the  serious  man,  the  superior  mind falls instantly in love with a slut.

One might disagree with Gretchen being a slut (IIRC, there's nothing in Goethe's tragedy that can be interpreted this way; on the other hand, there's nothing to prevent the interpretation, either) but otherwise he is spot on. :laugh:


Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: schnittkease on March 05, 2019, 06:57:10 AM
All signs point towards Tiberghien's Liszt being the new gold standard. Has anyone heard it?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: San Antone on March 05, 2019, 07:50:56 AM
All signs point towards Tiberghien's Liszt being the new gold standard. Has anyone heard it?

I don't think one CD with a selection of late piano works would qualify as a gold standard.  But I have that CD and enjoy it.  The selection of works is well put together and his playing is very fine.  It is a recording I can easily recommend to anyone interested in Liszt, especially the late works.

For me, until he records the B Minor sonata, I can't consider him establishing any kind of standard for Liszt.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: schnittkease on March 05, 2019, 08:46:44 AM
I don't think one CD with a selection of late piano works would qualify as a gold standard.  But I have that CD and enjoy it.  The selection of works is well put together and his playing is very fine.  It is a recording I can easily recommend to anyone interested in Liszt, especially the late works.

For me, until he records the B Minor sonata, I can't consider him establishing any kind of standard for Liszt.

Let me rephrase: the gold standard for Années de pèlerinage #3.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: San Antone on March 05, 2019, 08:54:27 AM
Let me rephrase: the gold standard for Années de pèlerinage #3.

The competition is pretty fierce for the Années de pèlerinage - but, I don't focus on comparing recordings, so I will let someone else, Todd for example, weigh in.  It is enough for me that his recording is enjoyable and a worthwhile purchase.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Florestan on March 05, 2019, 09:07:03 AM
I don't focus on comparing recordings...  It is enough for me that [a] recording is enjoyable.

My sentiments exactly.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: schnittkease on March 05, 2019, 09:10:08 AM
Sometimes it is important to compare, especially when you already have three other recordings of the same works and money is an issue. For the most part, however, I agree with your assessment.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Florestan on March 05, 2019, 09:15:44 AM
Sometimes it is important to compare, especially when you already have three other recordings of the same works and money is an issue.

In this case, why would you need a fourth recording?  :D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: schnittkease on March 05, 2019, 01:12:01 PM
In this case, why would you need a fourth recording?  :D

If Tiberghien is as great as critics are making him out to be, I don't mind a fourth.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Florestan on March 05, 2019, 01:16:12 PM
If Tiberghien is as great as critics are making him out to be, I don't mind a fourth.

And how would you ever know whether they are right or not?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: San Antone on March 05, 2019, 01:29:08 PM
If Tiberghien is as great as critics are making him out to be, I don't mind a fourth.

FWIW I did not hear anything that would make me wish to replace my copies of Bertrand Chamayou, or Ragna Schirmer or Mûza Rubackyté in the Annees - and they recorded the entire series of works, not just the third year.  Then there's Daniel Grimwood playing a period keyboard which I would vote ahead of Tiberghien, just for variety.  I bought it purely because I am a Liszt collector and buy many recordings just to listen to once and then maybe never again.

My feeling is that for some reason he is the flavor of the month - but his selection of works is very well put together and he plays the music very nicely. 

But, as I said, I am not very good at parsing the subtle nuances between several recordings.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: San Antone on March 05, 2019, 02:34:33 PM
Okay, so I've pulled the Chamayou (A) and Schirmer (B) recordings down and began to compare them with Tiberghien (C).  The first noticeable difference is tempo - C is slower in all the pieces than either A or B, sometimes very much slower: taking 11 minutes where A takes 8; or 8 where B takes 6.

His playing in #1 "Angelus" appears to be softer and more delicately phrased, but there are some very nice effects.  I like his performance better than B but not as good as A.

If you want I will continue.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on March 05, 2019, 03:00:37 PM
San Antone, Do you have an overall favorite Liszt sonata?
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: San Antone on March 05, 2019, 03:37:48 PM
San Antone, Do you have an overall favorite Liszt sonata?

Krystian Zimerman tops my ongoing list, followed closely by Martha Argerich.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: schnittkease on March 05, 2019, 03:41:36 PM
And how would you ever know whether they are right or not?

That is where you guys come in.  ;D

Thanks for the quick run-through, San Antone. I will now brood over whether or not to buy for the next week or so... as one does.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on March 05, 2019, 03:44:44 PM
Krystian Zimerman tops my ongoing list, followed closely by Martha Argerich.

I have both of those, Hooray!

(Don't like Pollini?)
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: San Antone on March 05, 2019, 03:52:17 PM
I have both of those, Hooray!

(Don't like Pollini?)

I haven't gone back and re-rated his performance - and I don't remember where he was on the lost list, probably pretty high.

Here's the top ten about one-third of the way through:

Krystian ZIMERMAN
Martha ARGERICH
Marc-André HAMELIN
Louis LORTIE
Jorge BOLET [1]
Dezsö RÁNKI [1]
Jorge BOLET [3]
Nikolai DEMIDENKO
Sviatislav RICHTER [1] (Carnegie Hall)
Vladimir HOROWITZ [1]

The numbers in brackets signify the existence of multiple recordings.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Madiel on March 06, 2019, 05:46:10 AM
In this case, why would you need a fourth recording?  :D

This is kind of why I don't even get beyond one recording if I'm happy with it. I don't go looking for others unless I feel unhappy in some way with what I have.

This is true of other things. And possibly why I have the finances to buy the albums that I do choose to buy.  ;D
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: schnittkease on March 06, 2019, 06:55:25 AM
Unfortunately I don't have Madiel's astounding self-control.  :-[
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: San Antone on March 06, 2019, 07:21:01 AM
Unfortunately I don't have Madiel's astounding self-control.  :-[

I rely on streaming and only buy what is either 1) unavailable to stream (like Hyperion recordings) or 2) rarely, something I want even if it is available to stream.  Consequently, I am buying far fewer CDs than I used to, like, one-tenth as many if not fewer.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: springrite on March 07, 2019, 12:41:03 AM
This is kind of why I don't even get beyond one recording if I'm happy with it. I don't go looking for others unless I feel unhappy in some way with what I have.


Well, this is exactly how I view marriage and the wife.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Madiel on March 07, 2019, 01:22:19 AM
Well, this is exactly how I view marriage and the wife.

I wondered if someone would go there... I nearly did.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: aukhawk on March 07, 2019, 03:21:12 AM
Where do streaming services fit in to this analogy??
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Madiel on March 07, 2019, 03:33:11 AM
Where do streaming services fit in to this analogy??

Friends with benefits.
Title: Re: Franz Liszt (1811-86)
Post by: Moonfish on October 16, 2019, 11:38:47 AM
Liszt
Années de pèlerinage – Suisse
Jorge Bolet

My very first recording of the 'Années de pèlerinage – Suisse' that I bought as a poor graduate student (spending those last few dollars on an expensive cd rather than buying food - know what I mean?).  Even though I have heard many other performances I keep returning to this one over and over. I know we like to compare recordings and partake of new renditions etc. However, I wonder how much of our "ratings" are based on previous exposure, i.e. becoming attuned to a certain recording/rendition. How can a recording one learns to love and recognize not be the one that rises to the top in competition with "strangers', i.e. new recordings that one has had less exposure to? These newer recording may have been our primary recording if it was our very first encounter. Perhaps?   Regardless, ranking works of this kind is of course a subjective enterprise.  Bolet's recording will always be associated with the first journey into the complexity of Liszt's tonal world as my stomach rumbled as I clearly put my money into music rather than food.  0:)

(https://img.discogs.com/88y2n2JCu107CF_oLWELQ6Rx3_8=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2948881-1308682933.jpeg.jpg)