GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: adamdavid80 on October 14, 2008, 06:02:15 AM

Title: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: adamdavid80 on October 14, 2008, 06:02:15 AM
Are you all familiar with this site? 

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/main.jsp

Apparently, they have licensing agreements with record companies to burn a copy of OOP music.  I just got the Haskil/Fricsay renidtion of Mozart's PCs 19 and 27, and the sound is TERRIFIC.  Packaging kind of blows, no liner notes, a badly photocopy of the cover, and it's a little pricey ($15 bucks for a burnt CD), but, hey, if you gotta support your jones, you've gotta do what you've gotta do, right?
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 14, 2008, 07:28:07 AM
Are you all familiar with this site? 

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/main.jsp

Apparently, they have licensing agreements with record companies to burn a copy of OOP music.  I just got the Haskil/Fricsay renidtion of Mozart's PCs 19 and 27, and the sound is TERRIFIC.  Packaging kind of blows, no liner notes, a badly photocopy of the cover, and it's a little pricey ($15 bucks for a burnt CD), but, hey, if you gotta support your jones, you've gotta do what you've gotta do, right?

The later releases in this series is supposed to have the liner notes. I have the Klemperer Haydn London Symphonies set and it looks almost identical to the EMI set. Sure they could have used a less cheap-looking ink but everything that should be there is there.

What I wonder is why they call it ON-DEMAND. ON-DEMAND from whom ? Do they survey a bunch of classical music lovers and ask them which OOP recordings they want reissued?
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Bulldog on October 14, 2008, 08:04:02 AM
What I wonder is why they call it ON-DEMAND. ON-DEMAND from whom ? Do they survey a bunch of classical music lovers and ask them which OOP recordings they want reissued?

Yes.  I even got an e-mail from them asking if there were any oop discs I might want.  I cited one, but it hasn't yet been added.

Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 14, 2008, 08:17:49 AM
Yes.  I even got an e-mail from them asking if there were any oop discs I might want.  I cited one, but it hasn't yet been added.


Hmm I ordered from them also but they didn't aske me  >:(
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Gustav on October 14, 2008, 08:23:03 AM
Are you all familiar with this site? 

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/main.jsp

Apparently, they have licensing agreements with record companies to burn a copy of OOP music.  I just got the Haskil/Fricsay renidtion of Mozart's PCs 19 and 27, and the sound is TERRIFIC.  Packaging kind of blows, no liner notes, a badly photocopy of the cover, and it's a little pricey ($15 bucks for a burnt CD), but, hey, if you gotta support your jones, you've gotta do what you've gotta do, right?

Yes, and buying from websites such as this is idiotic. They severely overcharge the CD "copies" that they sell. I mean, no liner notes, a photocopied cover, and 32 dollars for a one dollar effort?  Whhaaaa?? They must be crazy! even crazier, it appears that there are idiots who actually buy from them.

A better idea, why don't they just offer downloads instead? Just let people download the OOP music by paying a lesser fee.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: adamdavid80 on October 14, 2008, 09:00:39 AM
Yes, and buying from websites such as this is idiotic. They severely overcharge the CD "copies" that they sell. I mean, no liner notes, a photocopied cover, and 32 dollars for a one dollar effort?  Whhaaaa?? They must be crazy! even crazier, it appears that there are idiots who actually buy from them.

A better idea, why don't they just offer downloads instead? Just let people download the OOP music by paying a lesser fee.

My understanding is that they do have to pay for the licensing rights, and the rights to reproduce this copyrighted information.  So, their "one dollar effort" is actually more. 

But that IS a damn good idea.

p.s. I get mine "wrapped", unused, at academy in nyc for 5 bucks.  But for what I got, I would have been willing to pay the full 15, no doubt.  (but not to reproduce the liner notes is incomprehensible)
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Brian on October 14, 2008, 09:21:44 AM

What I wonder is why they call it ON-DEMAND. ON-DEMAND from whom ? Do they survey a bunch of classical music lovers and ask them which OOP recordings they want reissued?
They produce/print the CDs after you order them.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Bulldog on October 14, 2008, 10:23:52 AM
Hmm I ordered from them also but they didn't aske me  >:(

Maybe they only ask their most frequent customers.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Bulldog on October 14, 2008, 10:26:45 AM
Yes, and buying from websites such as this is idiotic. They severely overcharge the CD "copies" that they sell. I mean, no liner notes,

How many times do you have to read that they now do provide liner notes before you believe it?  At any rate, liner notes are not a big deal (at least not to me).
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Brian on October 14, 2008, 11:06:20 AM
Maybe they only ask their most frequent customers.
I suspect random sampling. They asked me if I was interested in a possible ArkivMusic MP3 shop. In unrelated news, Naxos asked me if they should move into the LP business  ???
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Gustav on October 14, 2008, 08:48:27 PM
How many times do you have to read that they now do provide liner notes before you believe it?  At any rate, liner notes are not a big deal (at least not to me).

I dunno, it all depends really. Some people just want to listen to the music, in that case, liner notes/CD copy, no big deal; but collectors really don't like that kind of cheap effort, they'd rather "overbid" on eBay.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Bulldog on October 15, 2008, 06:39:17 AM
I dunno, it all depends really. Some people just want to listen to the music, in that case, liner notes/CD copy, no big deal; but collectors really don't like that kind of cheap effort, they'd rather "overbid" on eBay.

Collectors are a diverse group of folks, and you don't speak for all of them.  It's obvious that you see recordings without liner notes as a cheap product; I just see them as recordings not including liner notes.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Brian on October 15, 2008, 11:44:37 AM
Collectors are a diverse group of folks, and you don't speak for all of them.  It's obvious that you see recordings without liner notes as a cheap product; I just see them as recordings not including liner notes.
And in any case, many lines (like RCA Red Seal) eschew liner notes in the original, and some liner notes (like DG's pretentious new fake interviews with the artists) are frankly worse than no notes at all.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Daverz on October 15, 2008, 03:43:18 PM
The later releases in this series is supposed to have the liner notes. I have the Klemperer Haydn London Symphonies set and it looks almost identical to the EMI set. Sure they could have used a less cheap-looking ink but everything that should be there is there.

What I wonder is why they call it ON-DEMAND. ON-DEMAND from whom ? Do they survey a bunch of classical music lovers and ask them which OOP recordings they want reissued?

They don't burn the CD until you demand it.  I thought that was fairly clear usage of the term.

I bought some Japanese RCA Ormandy isues from them, and it was a good deal compared to ordering from Japan.  They include liner notes, but like the Japanese issues they copy, in Katakana only.

I like having having a nicely labeled CD with the tray papers.  Otherwise, if I'm downloading and burning myself, the disc will probably just get lost, and the files will probably get destroyed in a disk crash.

Considering the ridiculous prices that so many OOP CDs command on Amazon, I no longer find the Archivmusic prices unreasonable.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Gustav on October 15, 2008, 04:48:57 PM
And in any case, many lines (like RCA Red Seal) eschew liner notes in the original, and some liner notes (like DG's pretentious new fake interviews with the artists) are frankly worse than no notes at all.

false, any liner notes is better than no notes at all!
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Gustav on October 15, 2008, 04:50:18 PM
It's obvious that you see recordings without liner notes as a cheap product

Well, aren't they?
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 15, 2008, 07:20:22 PM
false, any liner notes is better than no notes at all!

I understand, but I disagree. With internet, there are no bounds to the information you may need about any music. 30-35 years ago I used to studiously read liner notes (they were well done then), but as I came to know music better, I relied less and less on liner notes. The only ones I read nowadays are from labels that feature little-known music, such as Timpani or CPO. For the rest, most wiki articles are better written (or translated) than those on commercial issues.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 15, 2008, 08:23:07 PM
Well, aren't they?

Are you interested in the liner notes or the music?

For me it was worth it to buy one of these CDRs sans liner notes for the valuable performances otherwise not available or commanding sky-high prices on the secondary market.

Pretty easy decision for me.


Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Joe_Campbell on October 15, 2008, 08:27:55 PM
I find Hyperion/Helios liner notes to be a cut above. They always have thoughtful comments, sometimes even by the artist. However, most of their liner notes are also available on their website (as an exact copy of the booklet).
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Bulldog on October 15, 2008, 08:47:19 PM
Well, aren't they?

Saying that recordings without liner notes are cheap products is an opinion; that's how you look at it. 

As an aside, liner notes are most needed by folks not very familiar with either the music or composer.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Bogey on October 15, 2008, 08:52:41 PM
At any rate, liner notes are not a big deal (at least not to me).

I used to be concerned, but found I fretted about something I rarely read. (see Allan for details)

I like having having a nicely labeled CD with the tray papers.  Otherwise, if I'm downloading and burning myself, the disc will probably just get lost, and the files will probably get destroyed in a disk crash.

Same here.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: adamdavid80 on October 16, 2008, 05:40:39 AM
Are you interested in the liner notes or the music?


Well, for me, I'm interested in the total overall package.  Obviously, the liner notes aren't a deal breaker if they're not included - I bought the dang CD, didn't I? - but I appreciate it when they're available.  And JCampbell is right, Hyperion and Helios tend to have very well-crafted overall packages. 

Incidentally, I once read in Consumer Reports that the best way to buy a barbeque was to examine the owners manual.  If it is clearly written, easily understood by...ahem...Joe the Plumber...then you can bank that it's a very well made piece of equipment.  The analogy is obvious...Hyperion and Helios tend to have great sound quality, top-notch performances, great cover art, solid notes, you KNOW it's going to be money well-spent.  Likewise, if I see that there is an obvious "flaw" in the packaging, I'm going to be a little skeptical about the quality of the product before I've even unsealed the wrap.


(BTW, on the flip side, supposedly the method some food critics employ to seek out the best sushi restaurants is to see how many misspellings the menu has.  THE MORE, THE BETTER: it's an indication that you're in for an authentic japaese immigrants approach to the preparation.)

Anyhoo, liner notes...
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Jay F on October 16, 2008, 06:08:48 AM
I like having having a nicely labeled CD with the tray papers.

So do I. I participate in another music forum in which the majority of members post rhapsodic about "the smell, the feel, the look" of vinyl. Much is made of vinyl's superior artwork and packaging. I, however, have always preferred CDs and their packaging from a collecting standpoint. I like the way the cases open up, I like plucking the little silver discs off the spokes, I like placing them in the drawer and pushing "Play," and I like sitting down, listening to the first track while I look at the booklet.

I like the way the CDs look on my shelves. I even have a ruler I use to align the cases. As collectibles go, CDs wipe the floor with LPs, IMO.

Quote
Otherwise, if I'm downloading and burning myself, the disc will probably just get lost, and the files will probably get destroyed in a disk crash.

I have a bunch of discs I've burned, or ripped, or whatever it's called, but, yes, they get lost, and I don't feel like wasting the time or money to buy one of those books to store them in.

Also, unless something's otherwise impossible to listen to (the original SMILE, by the Beach Boys; an OOP version of the Left Banke's only album), I don't feel like playing CD-Rs. Finally, yes, if what happened to my old computer is any predictor, the music files on it are going to die someday, whereas my CDs  (and the few LPs I have left) have lasted for decades.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Brian on October 16, 2008, 03:07:50 PM
My favorite labels for notes + packaging are new (last year or so) CDs from BIS, harmonia mundia and Dacapo. Unfortunately, they're all really pricey labels.  :(
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Bogey on October 16, 2008, 06:54:08 PM
My favorite labels for notes + packaging are new (last year or so) CDs from BIS, harmonia mundia and Dacapo. Unfortunately, they're all really pricey labels.  :(

Well, when they include a catalogue that rivals the old Sears Wishbook and a slipcase to keep it in, the cost cannot go down my friend.   :) Great label though.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 17, 2008, 04:28:10 AM
Well, when they include a catalogue that rivals the old Sears Wishbook and a slipcase to keep it in, the cost cannot go down my friend.   :) Great label though.
Yes but the cd that includes the catalogue is usually $8.99 and most likely on sale for even less ;)
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Bogey on October 17, 2008, 04:31:35 AM
Yes but the cd that includes the catalogue is usually $8.99 and most likely on sale for even less ;)

So they up the prices of their other cds to cover the cost.  ;) :D
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 17, 2008, 09:53:49 AM
So they up the prices of their other cds to cover the cost.  ;) :D
Don't know about that, but I agree that $22 for one cd is a bit on the pricey side. OTOH a major portion of Harmonia Mundi's catalogue is on budget price (the ones with while paper cases and not plastic jewelry cases) allowing you to get a lot of excellent music cheaply.

CPO also puts their catalogue with a cheap cd so the practice is not HM's alone.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Brian on October 17, 2008, 12:36:36 PM
Don't know about that, but I agree that $22 for one cd is a bit on the pricey side. OTOH a major portion of Harmonia Mundi's catalogue is on budget price (the ones with while paper cases and not plastic jewelry cases) allowing you to get a lot of excellent music cheaply.

CPO also puts their catalogue with a cheap cd so the practice is not HM's alone.
No; the paper cases from harmonia mundi are the more expensive discs. :(
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 17, 2008, 12:47:56 PM
No; the paper cases from harmonia mundi are the more expensive discs. :(
I have a bunch of budget HM releases like this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Op1HGFDFL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

which is a paper case.

And a fullprice one like this one:


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KQHC9CP6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

In a thin plastic double jewel case like the ones Philips DUO uses.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Brian on October 17, 2008, 02:06:19 PM

And a fullprice one like this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KQHC9CP6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

In a thin plastic double jewel case like the ones Philips DUO uses.
That's probably a few years old; their new ones are in the paper, like these excellent albums-

(http://www.emusic.com/music/images/album/279/110/912/11091279/300x300.jpg)

(http://www.emusic.com/music/images/album/279/110/893/11089313/300x300.jpg)

(http://www.emusic.com/music/images/album/279/110/284/11028463/300x300.jpg)

Frankly I think the new packaging is much classier - and, of course, it doesn't break constantly.  :D
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 17, 2008, 02:38:51 PM

Frankly I think the new packaging is much classier - and, of course, it doesn't break constantly.  :D
Yes, and much more environmentally friendly too. Frankly I haven't bought the newer ones...because I am not rich enough yet for $22 per cd.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 17, 2008, 04:39:03 PM
No; the paper cases from harmonia mundi are the more expensive discs. :(

No, no. The white paper releases are HM's budget-line reissues (like PW's Mahler image).

They've been around for ages.

Everything else on paper is fair game.


Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: mn dave on October 17, 2008, 07:27:50 PM
I thought those little cd booklets contained short fiction. I guess I should have read one.  :P
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 19, 2008, 07:08:53 AM
I dont think this is available:

  (http://www.westminstergold.com/WG-8350a.jpg)


The cover certainly makes it interesting. Anyone heard it ?
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Bogey on October 19, 2008, 07:23:20 AM
I dont think this is available:

  (http://www.westminstergold.com/WG-8350a.jpg)


The cover certainly makes it interesting. Anyone heard it ?

No.  But now I am looking for it, AndrĂ©.  Very cool.  Actually going to a vinyl/cd show this morning and who knows.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Drasko on October 19, 2008, 07:45:34 AM
I dont think this is available:

You can get it on CD from Berkshire for $4, It's on Icone, or one used copy from amazon for $12

http://www.amazon.com/Berlioz-Symphonie-Fantastique-Yansons/dp/B00004SR2J (http://www.amazon.com/Berlioz-Symphonie-Fantastique-Yansons/dp/B00004SR2J)

I haven't heard it but here is review from ARG:

Quote
Leningrad Philharmonic/Arvid Jansons

Icone 9421 (Albany) 49 minutes

No use beating around the bush: this performance is not going to challenge the supremacy of the 3 Ms--Munch, Monteux, and Martinon. Nor will it even challenge the EMI recording by the conductor's son, Mariss Jansons, which has greater polish, brilliance of orchestral tone, and more virtuosic playing from the Concertgebouw Orchestra. This interpretation is solid, businesslike, straightforward, and rather short on Gallic freshness and instrumental clarity as well as the diaphanous, Berliozian lightness in the strings that marks the most idiomatic performances.

The recorded sound--decent, ungimmicky analog stereo from a concert performance on 12 April 1971--is dry, though some artificial reverb appears to have been added in places. Tempos are brisk, and it shares some clarity of line and detail with the two Monteux recordings. Like him, Jansons builds a convincing case that this work should not be approached as an sprawling, syrupy, overwrought romantic excess of Gothic grotesquerie but as a work with many moments of affinity to Berlioz's musical idols: Gluck, Beethoven, and Weber.

In any case, despite its modest pretensions, the version at hand beats hands down the dispiriting group of four modern digital recordings I reviewed a couple of years ago (Jan/Feb 1998). Considering that three of those clunkers came from conductors of the stature of Boulez, Hirokami, and Chung, one must not go too harsh on these Russians.

The first movement suffers the most from the rather curt approach: a quick comparison to the luminous, diaphanous string textures of the Martinon (EMI) exposes the thick, starchy quality of the Russians. The conductor whips up a good deal of frenzy at the climaxes, and perhaps realizing that he's not going to get by on sensuous sound, he moves right along, giving the movement a compactness and focus that more cumulatively impressive performances (eg, Muti) do not have. Still, this is the weakest movement.

The Ball, II, moves along at a reasonable, though unhurried clip (no comets, alas). Once again, a comparison with Munch and Martinon shows what is missing here: lightness, transparent textures, and a swinging, lilting elegance that Jansons and his players just cannot quite manage. To make up for it, there is plenty of energy and high spirits--almost like a Mahier landler--and the idee fixe makes an arresting effect when it appears.

III comes off well; at 14:32 it is not unusually swift, but Jansons keeps it flowing and actually does better than some conductors who confuse profundity with dragging out and distending music to the point that it ceases making musical and emotional sense (eg, Ostrowsky and Hirokami). In IV and V, the least subtle of the symphony's five movements, conductor and orchestra are on solid ground, and they slam out these pot-boilers lustily. The March to the Scaffold goes along at a good clip, with plenty of mock-tragic gravitas, and there is plenty of wackiness in V, despite the conductor's tight pace.

I suspect this release will be of interest mainly to Jansons fans and to collectors fascinated by Russian orchestral playing and interpretation in general. Despite its general lack of brilliance or flair, it is an enjoyable, rewarding performance, and will no doubt appeal to people who do not like over-the-top Berlioz.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 19, 2008, 08:37:31 AM
Thanks, Milos ! Nothing turned out on google. I see BRO has it either on Icone or Lenengrad Masters. Do you know if one of these labels is more reliable than the other ?
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Drasko on October 19, 2008, 09:13:48 AM
I have no experience with Leningrad Masters. Never heard any of their releases.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: M forever on October 19, 2008, 11:18:05 AM
I have discs from both labels, but it is hard to generalize about their quality. Especially when it comes to material from as unreliable sources as Soviet recordings. Since they are both very cheap at BRO, I would just get both and see which is one is better and see how they both are. I had put this on my amazon wishlist before because it is probably rather interesting. Searching for it on amazon, I found there is a EMI 2fer of works by Honegger and Weill conducted by his son with the OP and BP. That looks rather interesting. I will probably get that.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Drasko on October 19, 2008, 11:34:51 AM
Haven't noticed it first time around but Leningrad Masters Berlioz disc is also available used from amazon and it's twice cheaper than Icone.

http://www.amazon.com/Berlioz-Symphonie-fantastique/dp/B000002XF3
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: M forever on October 19, 2008, 11:48:48 AM
But you can have them for $2.99 or $3.99 from BRO.
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: Lilas Pastia on October 19, 2008, 04:52:58 PM
I think I'll order just the Icone one. From this Amazon link it would appear that LM lists the first movement "Visions and Passions" ::), which is of course wrong and is not even consistent with the french titles retained for the other four movements. 
Title: Re: Looking for that OOP classic? Try here!
Post by: anasazi on October 19, 2008, 09:39:52 PM
I was just pointed in their (Arkives) direction and had a very pleasant expierence.  Dylana Jensen's classic recording of the Sibelius VC with Ormandy etc.  Complete liner notes.  Just like the original BMG release.

BTW, on demand  simply means they (Arkive) don't make the CDs until somebody (like you) orders it. I found the turnaround time faster than ordering an item from Amazon.  So anyone considering purchasing a CD from Arkive, I would advise to go for it.  These folks are keeping some very valuable and classic CDs available to us. 

I'm sure their catalog of available items from RCA, Columbia, EMI and others will just continue to grow if only we support them.  They are a very recommened dealer in my view.