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Audiences hate modern classical music because their brains cannot cope

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Franco:

--- Quote from: DavidW on February 28, 2010, 09:03:10 AM ---The argument doesn't even make sense.  If I accept your claim that only a minority of listeners enjoy classical (which I don't), then you are saying that atonal music is a success because a minority of a minority listen to 'em.  How can one be a financial success with such an exceedingly small audience?  The truth is that they are not.  They suffer the same fate as the also unfashionable PI performances of Classico-romantic era music, and have their recordings done on small labels go out of print within months.  Just to be clear I'm not talking about the first Viennese school, I'm talking about the current crop of avant garde composers.

No Franco you're guilty (again) of judging something a success or failure based purely on your personal response.

--- End quote ---

It is a fact that Classical music CDs sell fewer copies than Popular music CDs.  Do you deny this?  I am not judging anything a success or failure, I am responding to others who claim that atonal music is a failure using an argument that atonal music was a colossal mistake because it has failed to enter the Classical music mainstream. 

Also, you folks who insist on denigrating atonal music continue to minimize the fact that atonal music does enjoy an avid audience.  For sure, you may not be among that audience, but just like all those people who don't like Classical music and prefer Pop - their opinion is irrelevant to your enjoyment of Beethoven.

DavidW:

--- Quote from: Franco on February 28, 2010, 09:11:38 AM ---It is a fact that Classical music CDs sell fewer copies than Popular music CDs.  Do you deny this?
--- End quote ---

Do you have reading comprehension problems?  Or do you simply delight in strawmanning all replies made to your posts?  My point was that a large minority enjoy classical, not a small minority.  Pointing out that popular music is more popular than classical hardly undermines my point. ::)


--- Quote ---  I am not judging anything a success or failure, I am responding to others who claim that atonal music is a failure using an argument that atonal music was a colossal mistake because it has failed to enter the Classical music mainstream. 
--- End quote ---

That argument suggests that as long as you and a few others like it, it's not a failure.  That is (a) narcissistic, and (b) ridiculous, what is a failure then?  Must the agreement of the entire human race to never perform the music ever again be considered the only time music can be considered a failure?  That is so extreme and unreasonable a declaration that you've made that it seems as if you think that the word "failure" should be banned because it's not nice.


--- Quote ---Also, you folks who insist on denigrating atonal music continue to minimize the fact that atonal music does enjoy an avid audience.  For sure, you may not be among that audience, but just like all those people who don't like Classical music and prefer Pop - their opinion is irrelevant to your enjoyment of Beethoven.

--- End quote ---

What do you mean you folks?  How long have we been posting on this forum?  And you don't know that I enjoy Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Carter, Ligeti, Frankel, Kurtag and many others?  I probably enjoy them more than you do, you hardly listen to them! :D

You have built up a facade of "the man" telling you that you can't listen to and enjoy atonal music.  That is not what is going on here AT ALL.  You can enjoy the music and admit that it has failed to be taken up and enjoyed by people as a whole (the same can not be said of classical).

Scarpia:

--- Quote from: Franco on February 28, 2010, 04:30:01 AM ---The explanation I offered in an earlier post is that atonal music has a small audience, but an avid audience of people who find something in it worthwhile.  Whether this audience comprises a majority of Classical music listeners or not is irrelevant.  One could make your argument about Classical music in general saying that after hundreds of years, it is still only a small percentage of people who choose to listen to Classical music, preferring Pop, therefore Classical music is a failure.

--- End quote ---

The point is this.  Classical music may be a relatively small market, but it is self supporting.  The money raised by people buying tickets and from rich people willing to donate money to orchestra foundations is sufficient to support the salaries of the musicians and the people who manage the orchestra.   I don't think atonal (or whatever you want to call it) is able to support itself.   It is only heard because atonal pieces get stuck into programs of music have wider appeal.  An orchestra that played only atonal music would never be able to fill a hall on a regular basis.  So, it not subsidized by proper music, you fans of atonal music would be restricted to ensembles that can subsist on your support.  I suspect that would restrict you to string trios, maybe the occasional wind quintet.  Or perhaps a semi-annual global convention with a special concert by the New Jersey Philharmonic.   :P

Elgarian:

--- Quote from: DavidW on February 28, 2010, 09:29:49 AM --- That argument suggests that as long as you and a few others like it, it's not a failure.  That is (a) narcissistic, and (b) ridiculous, what is a failure then?

--- End quote ---

I'm not entirely sure (this discussion has had so many twists and turns that it's hard to steer a course through it), but I think you're responding to what you think he said, rather than what he's actually saying, David. He says, specifically, 'I am not judging anything a success or failure'. I don't see anything narcissistic or ridiculous in his position. It isn't narcissism to suppose that an art can have real value to 'the happy few' who enjoy it , even if one is among them; neither is it ridiculous for one's approach to art not to be governed by ideas of 'success' or 'failure'.

DavidW:

--- Quote from: Elgarian on February 28, 2010, 09:53:57 AM ---I'm not entirely sure (this discussion has had so many twists and turns that it's hard to steer a course through it), but I think you're responding to what you think he said, rather than what he's actually saying, David. He says, specifically, 'I am not judging anything a success or failure'. I don't see anything narcissistic or ridiculous in his position. It isn't narcissism to suppose that an art can have value to 'the happy few' who enjoy it , even if one is among them; neither is it ridiculous for one's approach to art not to be governed by ideas of 'success' or 'failure'.

--- End quote ---

I don't think that you're understanding me.  He can say that he is not "judging anything a success or failure" but it's a lie.  Why?  He posted to refute Abe's post saying that atonal music is a failure.  My reply that you're responding to is me calling him out on that lie.  If Franco is truly not judging, then also he should have no problem with what Abe said.  But then why did he reply to disagree then?  I am tired of the intellectually dishonest way that he, you, and others make of asserting a position based purely on one' own personal feelings and then quickly withdrawing and pretending to be fair and open minded.

Furthermore, I don't perceive you as fair and open minded, and I reject you as arbiter.  Jump into the debate, or leave it be but don't try to play negotiator, it's obviously a role that you are not meant for and have no business doing Elgarian.

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