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Author Topic: Joyce Hatto: faked recordings?  (Read 60174 times)
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Bunnyears
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« Reply #315 on: February 28, 2007, 08:30:58 AM »

David Hurwitz had very little part in this. He bought a skajillion Hatto CDs, true, but he never wrote a single review of Hatto. All he did was let Jed Distler write them.

He's the editor in chief of the site and controls the content. 

Associates in mediocrity. You must not have read my responses to DH's equally infamous Part I & Part II spin.

For your pleasure.

"That said, I firmly believe that critics who review music based on
what they actually hear, rather than what the name of the artist leads them
to believe they ought to hear, have little cause for concern."

OK.  Shift the focus.  That which an art critic actually sees is all
that counts.  By that standard a very well executed faux Monet water lily
canvas has greater standing than a less well executed genuine Monet.
Nuts!!!


"No rational person expects anyone, professional critic or layman, to
be able to identify blindly any but a small handful of favorite
recordings of any one piece."


No; but give some thought to the remarkable catalog, and its quality,
put forth by this "mature" and ill and withdrawn-from-the-concert-hall
pianist and bring a bit of alertness to the endeavor.


"Beyond a fair and accurate appraisal of the music on the disc,
discovering fraud must necessarily be a matter of chance and
opportunity. It is no more the critic's job than it is the purchaser's."


What a craven sloughing-off of duty to one's readers.  How about
bringing a modicum of that alertness I mentioned to bear upon the reviewing
process?


"As for Mr. Barrington-Coupe, he can very easily answer his accusers.
He is being accused of stealing, among other things, entire concerto
recordings. As I told him a few days ago, either he hired an
orchestra, engineers, a recording space, a conductor, and paid them all, or he
did not."


There ya go! What better starting place for exercising that
alertness than to run down some of these folks who "did" the Hatto discs.
Even after CT exposes it as a fraud, the Hatto Ravel still sits
amongst their home page monthly preferences.


"After all, at a minimum, everyone loves a scandal, and the hunt to
discover how much Hatto is real, and how much is not, ought to provide
classical music fans with many hours of pleasant diversion."


Nope, only a diversion from recognizing the CT flub.


"Finally, if it hadn't been for the passion of one music-loving
reader, Mr. Ventura, would we even be having this conversation? Let's give
him, and Jed, the credit they deserve for caring, and doing the right thing
with speed, thoroughness, and tact."


Whoa, Bessie !!!  What's this "and Jed" stuff ?  Jed is the f***-up
artist with the blinders on.  All he did post-Ventura was try to get far
enough out ahead of the fan to avoid the splatter when the s**t would inevitably
hit it.

When discredited, Mr. DH, cravenness isn't a way out.


Boris, I couldn't have said it better.  DH's first postings about Hattogate were a blend of self-congratulatory nonsense and excuses.  Sometimes I wonder if he lives in the same world as the rest of humanity.
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Don
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« Reply #316 on: February 28, 2007, 08:50:04 AM »

He then went on to describe the crime as basically victimless because he took, again at face value, WB-C's statement that he only sold around 500 recordings.  I'll bet that many more than that were sold, especially after MusicWeb was making them more readily available. 

As some of you know, MusicWeb recently upgraded its website with most of the funding coming from sales of CA discs.
The Horowitz claim that sales had little impact on anyone is total garbage.

Being a reviewer, I have mixed feelings about this matter.  When I review a disc, I always take for granted that the performing forces are those listed on the disc and booklet.  However, when faced with fraud such as in the Hatto case, it's just best to admit the mistake, apologize to readers and move on (as Bunnyears recommended).  Certainly, those reviewers who praised the recordings to the sky have much egg on their faces.  Not because they couldn't recognize the fraud, but because they were praising performances that did not rate such acclaim.
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Bunnyears
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« Reply #317 on: February 28, 2007, 08:58:27 AM »

As some of you know, MusicWeb recently upgraded its website with most of the funding coming from sales of CA discs.
The Horowitz claim that sales had little impact on anyone is total garbage.

Being a reviewer, I have mixed feelings about this matter.  When I review a disc, I always take for granted that the performing forces are those listed on the disc and booklet.  However, when faced with fraud such as in the Hatto case, it's just best to admit the mistake, apologize to readers and move on (as Bunnyears recommended).  Certainly, those reviewers who praised the recordings to the sky have much egg on their faces.  Not because they couldn't recognize the fraud, but because they were praising performances that did not rate such acclaim.

Don,

I noticed the upgrade on the site, but had no idea that they were also profiting from the sale of the cds!  Are the buyers that request their money back entitled to get anything?  And if so, how much would MusicWeb have to reimburse?  No wonder everyone is running for cover!
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Don
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« Reply #318 on: February 28, 2007, 09:05:02 AM »

Don,

I noticed the upgrade on the site, but had no idea that they were also profiting from the sale of the cds!  Are the buyers that request their money back entitled to get anything?  And if so, how much would MusicWeb have to reimburse?  No wonder everyone is running for cover!

Sorry, but I have no idea how MusicWeb is going to play this one.  I only do reviews, and I'm very glad that I never had any CA discs.  As for profiting, I think that any monies MusicWeb gets from record sales goes right back into the website.
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BorisG
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« Reply #319 on: February 28, 2007, 10:02:19 AM »

Sorry, but I have no idea how MusicWeb is going to play this one.  I only do reviews, and I'm very glad that I never had any CA discs.  As for profiting, I think that any monies MusicWeb gets from record sales goes right back into the website.

Andrew Rose seemed to support that thinking by  posting at rmcr that Len Mullenger told him it was Hatto CD sales that was keeping MusicWeb afloat.

Searching rmcr, I was surprised to see a Len Mullenger post dated October 7, 2003, announcing their involvement with Concert Artist Hatto and Fiorentino CD sales. I did not realize the B-C/MusicWeb relationship was that old. That means three full years of sales.
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Lilas Pastia
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« Reply #320 on: February 28, 2007, 12:17:01 PM »

Faked Vermeers flooded the market some time ago (1930-40). Many experts were fooled and acknowledged their authenticity. They were so well made that it took a while to discover the hoax. But a hoax it was. If I sell a Vermeer at Christies I'll laugh all the way to the bank. If I sell one of those beautiful faux Vermeer at the same auction house, I'll cry all the way to the jail cell. It doesn't matter that some people find them great paintings, they're forged. What's the difference between that story and the faked Hatto discs? There's none. Hurwitz' failure to recognize the moral aspects of the hoax is dismaying.

BTW when I mentioned he was also a pig I was referring to his claim that guys don't complain about breast implants. It doesn't get more tasteless than that Tongue

Here's a transcript of an article about the faked Vermeers. The similarities are just too eerie...

Quote
Because of its emotional attraction, art of all periods comprises a fertile ground for misrepresentation, doctored histories, and outright hoaxes. One of the art world's most publicized cases involved Henricus Antonius van Meegeren, a Dutch painting dealer who was also something of an artist himself. Van Meegeren's talents focused on a peculiar specialization: he forged paintings. His most famous efforts involved the l7th century Dutch master, Vermeer. Among an extensive corpus of work, Vermeer produced a few atypical paintings. Studying Vermeers of this type, Van Meegeren saw his opportunity -- and took it. Employing carefully considered materials, he made new "Vermeers," baked the paintings to age them and pawned them off as rediscovered masterpieces.

Joy upon discovering these "new" Vermeers was by no means immediate or universal in Dutch art circles. But, once again, a hoax benefited from support and validation by key authorities. Among them, Dr. Abraham Bredius, a notable Dutch art historian, placed his stamp of approval on the "rediscovered" Vermeer's. Confronted with the made-up "Christ at Emmaus," he wrote, "It is a wonderful moment in the life of a lover of art when he finds himself suddenly confronted with a hitherto unknown painting by a great master, untouched, on the original canvas, and without any restoration.... And what a picture! ...what we have here is a -- I am inclined to say -- the masterpiece of Johannes Vermeer of Delft!"4

   

Christ and the Adulteress by Van Meegeren
With friends like that, what forger cares if he has enemies! Thriving in the light of such support, the Van Meegeren hoax endured through the mid-1940s, not without controversy, but with such success that, when it all came apart, there was egg on the faces of major art critics and museum curators throughout the Dutch art world.

Van Meegeren might have continued forging paintings until his hand gave out had it not been for one key customer, albeit an unwelcome one: the Nazi warlord, Hermann Goering. Fancying himself a great connoisseur of art, Goering approached Van Meegeren during the German occupation of the Netherlands. In his capacity of art dealer, Van Meegeren offered an extremely rare work, another rediscovered Vermeer, entitled "Christ and the Adulteress". Goering fell for the painting and bought it, paying with -- what else? -- forged British bank notes!

After the war, Van Meegeren's dealings with Goering came to the attention of collaboration courts who brought him to trial for selling a national treasure, Vermeer's "Christ and the Adulteress," to a Nazi. What an agony of a situation to be in. He readily admitted the sale but proclaimed irnocence on extraordinary grounds.

He insisted that the painting Goering bought was no Dutch masterpiece; it was a fake and Van Meegeren could show the court precisely how it was done. Setting up a canvas, he painted a new "Vermeer." This revelation bought Van Meegeren his freedom and fame of a sort -- in the shadowy world of hoaxes.

Art critics today uniformly view his "Vermeers" in the same light as did detractors in the 1930s: weak paintings requiring extraordinary suspension of judgment to be placed next to authentic Vermeer masterpieces. Whatever their weaknesses as works of art, Van Meegeren made a lot of money with his hoaxes. These material rewards were one of several driving forces behind his career. He despised art critics, curators, and art historians, and must have derived unique satisfaction when segments of these communities rewarded his paintings with the highest possible accolades, even after better minds declared them to be questionable or out-and-out fakes.

Whole article here: http://www.rugreview.com/orr/132hoax.htm
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Bunnyears
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« Reply #321 on: March 02, 2007, 12:57:50 AM »

Sorry, but I have no idea how MusicWeb is going to play this one.  I only do reviews, and I'm very glad that I never had any CA discs.  As for profiting, I think that any monies MusicWeb gets from record sales goes right back into the website.

I, for one, hope the website stays afloat! 

Meanwhile Hurwitz published a new installment to his Hatto thinking yesterday, this time rejecting the notion that it was all done for love.  I think he's been reading the posts of that fringe element of protozoans who have been saying this since the fraud was discovered.  It was about time he realized that the type of person who engages in something like this is amoral and motivated by purely narcissistic needs. Roll Eyes
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sidoze
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« Reply #322 on: March 02, 2007, 10:13:04 AM »

Hatto madness on Ebay everyone. Chopin Etudes just sold for $128. Chopin waltzes currently bid up to $53. Also "real" Joyce Hatto LP up for Buy it Now at 300.
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brian_rein
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« Reply #323 on: March 02, 2007, 01:06:36 PM »

Hatto madness on Ebay everyone. Chopin Etudes just sold for $128. Chopin waltzes currently bid up to $53. Also "real" Joyce Hatto LP up for Buy it Now at 300.
Jeez! I was about to post here offering $5 for a Hatto CD if anyone wanted to unload it, and they're already up to $128???!??!
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My favorite CDs of 2006:
Kalliwoda: Symphonies Nos. 5 and 7; Das Neue Orchester, Christoph Spering (CPO)
Stamitz: Orchestral Quartets; New Zealand Chamber Orchestra, Donald Armstrong (Naxos)
Tchaikovsky: Symphonies Nos. 5 and 6; Czech Philharmonic Orchestra, Lovro von Matacic (Supraphon)
Bunnyears
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« Reply #324 on: March 02, 2007, 02:44:48 PM »

Hatto madness on Ebay everyone. Chopin Etudes just sold for $128. Chopin waltzes currently bid up to $53. Also "real" Joyce Hatto LP up for Buy it Now at 300.

There are people who paid thousands for beanie babies, too.  Lord what fools these mortals be...
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Szykneij
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« Reply #325 on: March 03, 2007, 03:27:02 AM »

There are people who paid thousands for beanie babies, too.  Lord what fools these mortals be...
... and what geniuses were those who sold them!
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Men profess to be lovers of music, but for the most part they give no evidence in their opinions and lives that they have heard it.  ~Henry David Thoreau
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« Reply #326 on: March 03, 2007, 08:22:28 AM »

In an article published today1 , Wm Barrington-Coupe claims he lost money on the Hatto CD sales:

"And he denied the trickery was motivated by money. He said that he had made 'a thumping great loss' on her CDs, selling just 3,051 in 2005-6 and 5,500 since then."  *** "What I've done is completely wrong, but I didn't go in for wholehearted piracy.  It wasn't a question of putting other people's performances out, but covering little, involuntary noises."






1Royston and Buntingford Mercury, I faked my Dying Wife's Recordings, 02 March 2007
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brian_rein
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« Reply #327 on: March 03, 2007, 09:09:29 AM »

Jeez! I was about to post here offering $5 for a Hatto CD if anyone wanted to unload it, and they're already up to $128???!??!
Hmm ... if anyone wants to send me a Hatto CD I'll still pay only $5

Barrington-Coupe did NOT lose money selling 8,551 CDs at $25 apiece with zero overhead!
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My favorite CDs of 2006:
Kalliwoda: Symphonies Nos. 5 and 7; Das Neue Orchester, Christoph Spering (CPO)
Stamitz: Orchestral Quartets; New Zealand Chamber Orchestra, Donald Armstrong (Naxos)
Tchaikovsky: Symphonies Nos. 5 and 6; Czech Philharmonic Orchestra, Lovro von Matacic (Supraphon)
BorisG
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« Reply #328 on: March 03, 2007, 10:32:45 AM »

Hmm ... if anyone wants to send me a Hatto CD I'll still pay only $5

Barrington-Coupe did NOT lose money selling 8,551 CDs at $25 apiece with zero overhead!

No overhead? What about engineering, art direction, packaging, comp copies, etc.?

I am curious. I would like to know who else was involved, beside the sound person who said he just did a little editing between tracks.
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Bunnyears
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« Reply #329 on: March 04, 2007, 01:34:46 AM »

No overhead? What about engineering, art direction, packaging, comp copies, etc.?

I am curious. I would like to know who else was involved, beside the sound person who said he just did a little editing between tracks.

I'll bet it was a one man job.  Art direction?  You mean you think he actually hired an agency or art directors to design the liners, and tray back graphics?  I can do beautiful things with almost any software program and a laser printer.  Were the graphics color or monochrome on colored paper?  No, after the outlay for computer, software and printer there were only minimal expenses.  He used photos from 30 years ago and the only expense would have been to go to a photolab for a digital file to be made either from a negative (unlikely) or a clean print (likely) of the photo.  Hatto and he wrote the liner notes so there's no extra expense there.  As for the engineering, don't you think he had sufficient background in the recording industry to manage this by himself?  Unless, ofcourse, he was paying someone first to do the engineering and then to keep quiet about it.  I think that he would certainly have named someone else if he had a partner.  But, who knows?  He also was known to have very little business acumen. 
I've copied cds and made up graphics and it doesn't cost me anywhere near $20.00 to do them.  After the first, all he's doing is making cds from the files.
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