Mahler's Das Lied: Symphony or Song Cycle?

[Harvested Sorrow]

As a mathematician I think that my arithmetic way be wrong:

Symphony no. 8 in E flat
9) Das Lied von der Erde
10) Symphony no. 9 in D

It it is a symphony then why did Mahler call his 10th the 9th and his 11th the 10th? Since it would be very easy to rename Das Lied whonce the 10th (9th) was completed. But Mahler did not do this, and I can only assume that Das Lied is not a symphony. Though it is a very impressive integrated symphonic song cycle.

He did that because he was worried about "The curse of the 9th" which was an idea that a composer will die after completing their 9th symphony and not be able to begin a tenth.  He called it a song cycle and wrote "symphony" at the bottom of the score hoping to avoid the curse of the 9th by cheating and labeling a symphony as a song cycle so his symphonies would be mis-numbered.

[Wanderer]

MAHLER, Gustav. Das Lied von der Erde. Eine Symphonie für eine Tenor- und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester

Pretty clear from the above. Das Lied von der Erde is as much a symphony as the 8th (comprised by a hymn/cantata and an operatic scene). Mahler was indeed worried about the number 9 "curse", being quite superstitious. Another manifestation of this is the eventual removal of the third "blow" of fate from the finale of his 6th Symphony.

[knight]

Stephanie Blyth has issued a recital that includes the Wesendonk Lieder and the final song only from Das Lied in the Schoenberg version.

In the earlier symphonies Mahler used song tunes within non vocal movements and a number also have vocal movements. So Das Lied is an extension of what he was doing in the earlier symphonies. I see no connection in themes etc between the 1st and 2nd movements of the 8th Symphony, yet we always refer to it as such.

Mahler designated Das Lied as a Symphony; but I would agree, it hardly matters under which catagory it falls.

Mike

[D Minor]

He did that because he was worried about "The curse of the 9th" which was an idea that a composer will die after completing their 9th symphony and not be able to begin a tenth. 

Obviously, Mahler's fear was valid: he died after completing his 9th Symphony.   

[D Minor]

Even the ones that don't have singing!?  Give me a break!!  It's obvious that for instance the sixth symphony is not a fucking song cycle.

But what about the concept of "a song without words . . . . . ." 

[MahlerSnob]

Even the ones that don't have singing!?  Give me a break!!  It's obvious that for instance the sixth symphony is not a fucking song cycle.

Did I SAY the sixth symphony was a song cycle? If you read what I wrote, you'll notice I didn't say that. I said that songs form the backbone for Mahler's compositions. Yes, even the compositions that don't have words. All of the melodies in Mahler's works are either songs, based upon songs, or related to songs. If you don't believe me, have a look at a Mahler score and start comparing the major themes to the collected songs.

[Calaf]

Some of the themes in the first and fifth symphonies are based on songs he wrote (Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen in I and Rückert Lieder in 5)

[Wanderer]

Obviously, Mahler's fear was valid: he died after completing his 9th Symphony.   

So, it seems that the numbering/labeling is what counts and not the actual number of the symphonies. Tough curse, that one...

[val]

Obviously, Mahler's fear was valid: he died after completing his 9th Symphony.

   

Sorry for my ignorance, but I always thought that Mahler had finished his 9th Symphony and left unfinished the 10th.
What part of the 9th is not finished?

[from the new world]

He did that because he was worried about "The curse of the 9th" which was an idea that a composer will die after completing their 9th symphony and not be able to begin a tenth.  He called it a song cycle and wrote "symphony" at the bottom of the score hoping to avoid the curse of the 9th by cheating and labeling a symphony as a song cycle so his symphonies would be mis-numbered.

But this is my point, he did complete his 9th (10th) BEFORE he died, and I believe that if he lived long enough to see them published, then nothing would change, we would not have symphony no. 10 in d, symphony no. 11 in f sharp (unfinished) etc.

What is also interesting is that "The curse of the 9th" still applies to Mahler in that he completed a numbered 9th symphony, but no complete 10th. (Though Bruckner's 9th kind of counts as complete in that the three movement torso is often played as a full symphony, like Schubert's 8th.)

[Hector]

There are often arguments here about whether Mahler's Das Lied Von Der Erde is a Song Cycle or a Symphony. Your take?

What is this with you and your alter ego? You are over every thread like a rash.

Have you the week off and nothing better to do?

[Harvested Sorrow]

But this is my point, he did complete his 9th (10th) BEFORE he died, and I believe that if he lived long enough to see them published, then nothing would change, we would not have symphony no. 10 in d, symphony no. 11 in f sharp (unfinished) etc.

What is also interesting is that "The curse of the 9th" still applies to Mahler in that he completed a numbered 9th symphony, but no complete 10th. (Though Bruckner's 9th kind of counts as complete in that the three movement torso is often played as a full symphony, like Schubert's 8th.)

Of course.  However, he would still consider it a symphony and it is still a symphony, even if he wouldn't have had it printed as such assuming he'd lived that long.

I suppose we could call it "A symphony in everything but name"

[jochanaan]

Obviously, Mahler's fear was valid: he died after completing his 9th Symphony.  

Well, I'd call that a self-fulfilling prophecy.  If he had said in effect, "Damn destiny!  Full speed ahead!" he might well have left a catalog of 11 numbered symphonies.

Still, Das Lied has none of the inter-movement motivic connections that characterize all of his numbered symphonies.

"Symphonic song-cycle" describes it as well as any label.

[Godzillaviolist]

What is this with you and your alter ego? You are over every thread like a rash.

Who do you think my "alter ego" is?

[CyberStryke21]

      Come come now, we all know who you really are by now... Batman!