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knight
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« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2005, 04:15:02 PM » |
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Still, Das Lied has none of the inter-movement motivic connections that characterize all of his numbered symphonies. "Symphonic song-cycle" describes it as well as any label.  Can you explain to me, as I cannot hear any, what are the connections between the movements of the 8th symphony? Mike |
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DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
Samuel Butler: 'Take everything in moderation; even moderation.'
For those demanding proof of what they do not intend to believe; there will never be sufficient proof. The aim is to destroy, not enlighten. An invitation to nothingness.
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val
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« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2005, 07:51:14 PM » |
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Can you explain to me, as I cannot hear any, what are the connections between the movements of the 8th symphony? That is a very good point. But is it a Symphony? Well, it has the title of Symphony. Is that enough? I don't think so. |
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knight
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« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2005, 02:46:52 AM » |
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Val, if not a symphony then what I wonder. Mahler was pretty smart, if he called it a symphony, I am not going to be calling it chopped liver.
A symphony by any other name; would it sound as sweet?
Mike
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DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
Samuel Butler: 'Take everything in moderation; even moderation.'
For those demanding proof of what they do not intend to believe; there will never be sufficient proof. The aim is to destroy, not enlighten. An invitation to nothingness.
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Godzillaviolist
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« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2005, 05:51:51 AM » |
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So I geuss in order to find out whether Das Lied is a symphony or a song cycle, we first have to define a symphony. And as the symphony has changed over time... things get complicated.  |
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D Minor
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« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2005, 10:31:32 AM » |
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So I geuss in order to find out whether Das Lied is a symphony or a song cycle, we first have to define a symphony. And as the symphony has changed over time... things get complicated. A related and equally important question is: "whether a composer's labelling a composition a SYMPHONY is dispositive of the issue, or whether the composer's clear, unambiguous, subjective label can be overruled by some extrinsic, objective definition(s)?" |
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drogulus
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« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2005, 10:51:38 AM » |
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A related and equally important question is: "whether a composer's labelling a composition a SYMPHONY is dispositive of the issue, or whether the composer's clear, unambiguous, subjective label can be overruled by some extrinsic, objective definition(s)?"
I don't think either one of these is exactly true. That is, no objective definition, and the composer can't call just anything a symphony. Posterity decides if the label fits on a reasonableness standard. If it seems to resemble a symphony more than anything else, it will be accepted as such. |
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D Minor
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« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2005, 11:52:54 AM » |
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I don't think either one of these is exactly true. That is, no objective definition, and the composer can't call just anything a symphony. Posterity decides if the label fits on a reasonableness standard. If it seems to resemble a symphony more than anything else, it will be accepted as such.
Can you think of an instance in which a composer's label has been discarded as a result of the dictates of posterity? |
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Godzillaviolist
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« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2005, 01:17:36 PM » |
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Can you think of an instance in which a composer's label has been discarded as a result of the dictates of posterity?
Berlioz's Faust was, if I remember correctly, titled by the composer a "dramatic legend", as it wasn't written to be staged. Nowdays it's almost exclusively considered an opera. |
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Calaf
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« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2005, 01:30:53 PM » |
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A related and equally important question is: "whether a composer's labelling a composition a SYMPHONY is dispositive of the issue, or whether the composer's clear, unambiguous, subjective label can be overruled by some extrinsic, objective definition(s)?"
I think this is the essence of the discussion at hand (plus the following comments). I mean: everybody knows how Mahler labeled his work. But did he settle on a designation and does it still correspond to what we hear/expect from the term? Did he invent some new, freer form of symphony? |
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drogulus
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« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2005, 03:49:07 PM » |
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Can you think of an instance in which a composer's label has been discarded as a result of the dictates of posterity?
I was going to say no, but then Berlioz was mentioned. So if we decide DLvDE is not a symphony, Mahler can reach from beyond the grave and overrule us. Ahhh...no. |
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drogulus
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« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2005, 04:07:13 PM » |
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Are Widors solo organ symphonies really symphonies? The reasonableness standard says no. Widor has been overruled.
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Godzillaviolist
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« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2005, 05:22:35 PM » |
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Come come now, we all know who you really are by now... Batman!
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val
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« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2005, 07:08:16 PM » |
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Knight A symphony by any other name; would it sound as sweet? Since Mahler called the 8th a Symphony, I must accept. But it isn't a Symphony. More a Cantata, perhaps. And we have the inverse situation with La Mer. In my opinion, it is a Symphony. But Debussy chosed a different title, so I must also accept that. |
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drogulus
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« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2005, 07:52:10 PM » |
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Knight
Since Mahler called the 8th a Symphony, I must accept. But it isn't a Symphony. More a Cantata, perhaps.
And we have the inverse situation with La Mer. In my opinion, it is a Symphony. But Debussy chosed a different title, so I must also accept that.
La Mer is a symphony. I accept your recommendation that we vote out the Mahler. Once again, a thing is what it most resembles, unless somebody complains. Then we fight about it. |
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M forever
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« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2005, 08:11:43 PM » |
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I find this whole discussion pointless. Mahler called Das Lied von der Erde a symphony, so that's what it is. Symphonie means nothing more dramatic than "sounding together", roughly in the sense of "sound piece", originally the instrumental opening piece in Italian operas as opposed to the vocal numbers following it. It then underwent the very substantial development you all know to emerge in the basic 4 movement layout of the typical classical symphony. That doesn't mean that anything which doesn't follow that layout exactly in number of movements or form isn't a symphony. It is the great composers who defined the forms a symphony could take, and some of them deviated more or less from earlier formal schemes and scoring conventions. That doesn't mean that they aren't "true" symphonies.
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