Improvisational Groups

[Ugh!]

Categories are big time in classical music - and we always tend to think about composer as a singular person. However, there are many improvisational groups out there, representing a return to what was once common in classical music - although by now mostly in a far far more avant garde direction.

I would esp like to mention GRUPPO DI IMPROVVISAZIONE NOUVA CONSONANZA (it.) and SPUNK (no.). The former was an open door collective of composers performers formed in 1964 - the most famous member being Ennio Morricone. The latter is a contemporary all female trio of composer-performers. Both these groups perform(ed) on both traditional and non-traditional instruments.

For those of you familiar with the wonderful avant garde series on Deutsche Grammophone, Gruppo Nouva Consonanza may be known for their "Improvisations" 1968.

http://www.bittorrentshare.com/Games/GameCube/Total-Improvisation-Gruppe-Nuova-Consonanza-Avant-Garde-Project-69-FLAC_693283.html

http://spunkmusic.com/index.php?id=1.3

[some guy]

Hey Eugene,

You'll snag more responses over at I Hate Music with this one. Or not. (But only because they've run a thread of this sort for hundreds of responses. Or at least dozens.)

But that's as may be. We're here, now, so I'll just say that I've enjoyed AMM for many years, I just purchased the three CD collection of The Hub, and most of the live concerts I attend in Portland, OR are live improv, either acoustic, electronic, or both.

I just read about a blurb on Finnish composer J.O. Mallander on the Forced Exposure site which mentions his connection with "the notorious music-performance collective, Sperm."

I also have a number of recordings by composer duos, My Cat is an Alien, Parallel Lives, Crawling with Tarts, and have heard Eye Myths live here in Portland. And many people who have made (singular) names for themselves are people who spend much of their time collaborating, Heiner Goebbels, Otomo Yoshihide, Christian Marclay, Gino Robair, Keith Rowe, Zeena Parkins, Elliott Sharp, among others.

[Ugh!]

Hey Eugene,

You'll snag more responses over at I Hate Music with this one. Or not. (But only because they've run a thread of this sort for hundreds of responses. Or at least dozens.)

But that's as may be. We're here, now, so I'll just say that I've enjoyed AMM for many years, I just purchased the three CD collection of The Hub, and most of the live concerts I attend in Porland, OR are live improv, either acoustic, electronic, or both.

I just read about a blurb on Finnish composer J.O. Mallander on the Forced Exposure site which mentions his connection with "the notorious music-performance collective, Sperm."

I also have a number of recordings by composer duos, My Cat is an Alien, Parallel Lives, Crawling with Tarts, and have heard Eye Myths live here in Portland. And many people who have made (singular) names for themselves are people who spend much of their time collaborating, Heiner Goebbels, Otomo Yoshihide, Christian Marclay, Gino Robair, Keith Rowe, Zeena Parkins, Elliott Sharp, among others.

Thanks for the reply, Michael - you are right, the subject doesn't seem to attract many people at this forum
I find it interesting that all of the composers/groups you mention have a genre-breaking attitude in common, or rather unite genres in improvisations. I would not hesitate to place Hemmelig Tempo within this tradition. Last Wednesday I also performed with two jazz musicians in Bergen (percussion and double bass with bow) - improvising around fragments of orchestral samples, gamelan hits and stabs, found sounds and this and that (including my arrangement of four water glasses and two electrical toothbrushes that fit nicely into the lineup). I think you would have liked it, and as parts of the concert were broadcasted on radio I may be able to send you a recording - although they never do fully justice to a live performance IMO.

[some guy]

I find it interesting that all of the composers/groups you mention have a genre-breaking attitude in common, or rather unite genres in improvisations.

That may just be me. The groups I mentioned are groups that I enjoy!

I would not hesitate to place Hemmelig Tempo within this tradition.

Indeed!

Last Wednesday I also performed with two jazz musicians in Bergen (percussion and double bass with bow) - improvising around fragments of orchestral samples, gamelan hits and stabs, found sounds and this and that (including my arrangement of four water glasses and two electrical toothbrushes that fit nicely into the lineup). I think you would have liked it, and as parts of the concert were broadcasted on radio I may be able to send you a recording

I wouldn't turn that down. 

[Ugh!]

In 1965, Leonard Bernstein with the New York Philharmonics recorded various contemporary pieces containing improvisation, including four in which they simply improvised freely (with Bernstein as a conductor) with tapes rolling. According to the liner notes,

"The orchestra and I are going to compose on the spot," said Leonard Bernstein to the audience in Philharmonic Hall, when he and the orchestra first improvised in public. "Nothing has been fixed or decided upon in advance except two or three signals for starting and stopping. Otherwise, every note you hear will have been spontaneously invented by the New York Philharmonic, with its conductor serving only as a kind of general guide, or policeman.

Not surprisingly, while 100 % improvised, the four spontaneous pieces do not sound much different than (more) conventionally composed pieces at the time. So much for spontaneity?

[bhodges]

In 1965, Leonard Bernstein with the New York Philharmonics recorded various contemporary pieces containing improvisation, including four in which they simply improvised freely (with Bernstein as a conductor) with tapes rolling. According to the liner notes,

Not surprisingly, while 100 % improvised, the four spontaneous pieces do not sound much different than (more) conventionally composed pieces at the time. So much for spontaneity?

Wow, I can't believe you posted that cover!  I heard that LP, but I haven't seen it in probably 35 years! 

While I haven't heard as much as you guys, I have heard some of the work of Zeena Parkins, Heiner Goebbels and Elliott Sharp.  I've met Sharp a number of times and see him at concerts here fairly often.

Last Wednesday I also performed with two jazz musicians in Bergen (percussion and double bass with bow) - improvising around fragments of orchestral samples, gamelan hits and stabs, found sounds and this and that (including my arrangement of four water glasses and two electrical toothbrushes that fit nicely into the lineup). I think you would have liked it, and as parts of the concert were broadcasted on radio I may be able to send you a recording - although they never do fully justice to a live performance IMO.

And sorry I missed your post above!  Sounds quite marvelous, especially the toothbrushes. 

--Bruce

[karlhenning]

Are they customized electrical toothbrushes?

[Ugh!]

Are they customized electrical toothbrushes?

No, but the water is

[karlhenning]

Mmmm . . . artisanal water!

[Ugh!]

hmmm trainwreck, "we're so freee  let's have a happening and throw some shit at the wall and see if any of it sticks"....

Well, James that post hardly supports your Zappa quote 

I have to give Bernstein/the New York Philharmonics some credit, the recording showcases amazing communication between the musicians and the conductor.

[karlhenning]

Well, James that post hardly supports your Zappa quote 

Welcome to James's world 

[Ugh!]

 Well that is splendid, James. Gven your rather limited approach to music, I gather you have never even heard the Bernstein/New York Philharmonics recording? Nevertheless you jump into your trench and take cover, firing at will against the perceived enemy. But the enemy is within

Now if we could get back on topic of improvisation - you realize of course that improvisation and ornamentation used to be an integral part of "western art music". The composer graciously allowed skilled musicians to further develop the composition, keeping it alive. For some time, this sort of trust disappeared from classical music, only to be resurrected in the 50's/60's. What is your stance on that?

[Ugh!]

I've heard that Bernstein, yea...cack. And I know all about improvisation and I have spoken about it several times before on the forum, it's not really an effective method to make quality music... and of course can never really be as good as a thought through composition, of course it's not as well considered and isn't built for time travel because of it's design brief ....you'll find more in 3 bars of great writing than 30,000 bars of rambling improv with the odd great moment, i don't care who it is...under the circumstances it just lacks focus.

Lack of focus is simply a characteristic of bad improvisation, it is precisely the focus and level of spontaneous communication between the ensemble players that I find interesting. The thing is not to enter improvisation into a battle with written music, but to regard it in its' own right.

[Ugh!]

That's probably where we would disagree the most. "Musical quality" is a word that doesn't really state anything but a vague ideal in itself. When I want to listen to intricate rhythmical details I go for Stravinsky, but when I want to dance, only James Brown will do. I wouldn't dream of making a straightforward comparison between the two with the aim of rating musical quality.

[Ugh!]

You can do what you want, but that still doesnt change the blindingly obvious and simple point that with respect to aesthetic value cogency is the measure of quality and is used to compare ALL MUSICS, regardless of idiom. Broad comparisons on the basis of cogency / meaningfulness, quality & integrity etc are the bread & butter of artistic discourse. That's just reality.

"The behatted tenorman was blowing at the peak of a wonderfully satisfactory free idea, a rising and falling riff that went from 'EE-yah!' to a crazier 'EE-de-lee-yah!' and blasted along to the rolling crash of butt-scarred drums hammered by a big brutal Negro.... Uproars of music and the tenorman had it and everybody knew he had it.... They were all urging that tenorman to hold it and keep it with cries and wild eyes, and he was raising himself from a crouch and going down again with his horn, looping it up in a clear cry above the fervor. "

Jack Kerouac, On the Road.
That's just another reality.

[Ugh!]

I agree that improvisation is a here-and-now expression that is not necessarily designed to last - but that is exactly the point - it is the here-and-now that is interesting: the way particular performers interact with each other in a particular setting, the way they often struggle to communicate, the way they sometimes break through to each other, establish common grounds, depending on each other, following each other, feeling each other out, challenging each other, observing each other, respecting each other's musical choices and responding to those, it is this state of intense alertness which makes improvisational concerts so exciting to witness.

As a performer, I would add that this state is heightened by responding to the environment the concert takes place in. Let me give you a personal example: I once performed in an outdoor music pavilion during Bergen Fest. At one point, I started to respond musically to the sound of traffic surrounding the pavilion, high pitch car brakes, horns, engines, whatever. Of course, it is common to respond to the audience as well, creating a unity in which the reactions of the audience inspire and urge the performer to "go on", like in the Kerouac quote. In other words, improvisation concerts represent a particularly interesting mode of human interaction, which is what makes it different than performances of written music.

[greg]

Yes improvising great music is a great challenge, in any setting, for any player...

Of course! Just hopping on an instrument and making something up at the moment that sounds halfway decent takes up just about all of your brainpower. It's easy to just sit down and play a bunch of notes, without actually listening and judging what you should do next........ (just something i've been thinking about and noticing more and more recently)

[Ugh!]

Yes improvising great music is a great challenge, in any setting, for any player...it's more prone to being inconsistent minute by minute musically...suppose this in-part is why many try to do it...despite it's realitively low success rate. It's apsirations are more localised too, and narrow. But again, you're referring to experiences of being a performer, these self-indulgences you're describing don't necessarily extend to the listener, or deserve any sort of critical leniency... It's not about YOU and you're experiences as a performer, remember, it's supposed to be about the ART. With most improvising I'm more blown away by the scope of the self-indulgence than the musical result, it rarely if ever, comes close to the best composed music, it is ephemeral...

I am trying to communicate that improvisation is about more than musical result, but involves a particular mode of face-to-face interaction between several actors, including performers and listeners (who may also considered participants), and, as Bruno Latour would have argued, the physical space the improvisation takes place in. Personally, I am seldom bothered about self-indulgence when attending (good) improvisation concerts. Rather, it is the excitement of knowing that (anything) can happen that is the clue. I would much rather have been present during one of Debussy's or Beethoven's impro sessions by the piano (not to mention be part of that session, as Jerry noted) than listen to their written music again and again. So this is hardly something that may be settled by reference to universal rules about musical quality, but in the end it boils down to personal preferences.

Now I Imagine an impossible improvisational group consisting of Debussy (piano), Stravinsky (cimbalom and percussion), Pierre Henry (tape recorders and electronic devices), Charlie Parker (sax) and Zakir Hussain (tabla). Yupp, that made my day. Merry Christmas!

[jowcol]

Just to weigh in on some of the ideas being tossed around here. 

I agree- the end result is the most important.  However, comparing the "staying power"  of improvised music to classics is hard to do, because the document of reference is not a score, but a recording, and recording technology has only been around so long. 

I am also reluctant to draw any arbitrary boundaries between jazz and serious music.  Things  like Mile Davis's Kind of Blue, Coltrane's A Love Supreme, and Coleman's Free Jazz are essential 20th century works that are every bit as important as most of the names that get bandied about on this forum.   Some of the most effective improvised works never could have been written out-- it would have killed their vitality.   I don't see these works being forgotten.  (And compare their current sales to some of our favorite 20th Century composers....)For me, I think a lot of the 60's free jazz was more effective than the avante garde during that period-- because the performers came from a tradition where improv was second nature.

I must admit I haven't been as drawn to some of the "modern classical"  improv-- but I haven't dug in that deeply.  A lot of what I heard seems a bit forced.  But I may have not listened to the best artists.  Or it may have been the wrong time for me.  I certainly wouldn't question the viability of what they do as an art form.


Question:  Is Bach less than transcendental for providing space for an improvised cadenza in the Third Brandenburg?  Have we managed do "downplay" the role of improvisation in the earlier classical traditions because we don't have the records? 

Deep down, however, most of these terms, (my own included) are meaningless.  Music is highly subjective, and whatever trips your trigger is most important.  For me, there is something in some types of improvised music that have the structural transcendence of Bach.  (Most anything from the Coltrane Quartet from 61-63, or an Hindustani Raga, for instance).  But your mileage will vary.

[jowcol]

Putting together people like this doesn't necessarily equal great music will be made. Albums like this are done all the time by record companies, mixing and matching top name players, of course the recordings sell but the musical results usually stink and are uninspired. The best improvising units (or groups of anykind) are usually a very rare occurrance and consist of players that are very very sympathetic to each others playing, there's a seriousness of purpose, a focus, a great organic chemistry in otherwords, a closeness....and this takes an inordinate amount of time and practice together (and alone) to get the music to a level where it's prone to be very great. John Coltrane's quartet (JC with Tyner, Garrison, Jones) would be a classic example.

I fully agree with this!

Congrats for latching onto the Coltrant Quarter, whom I revere.  One thing I'd point out, however, is that, although the Quarter played a lot together, they didn't really practice much at all, but certainly fed off of each other in performance.  Also, Trane usually create setlists, so when they performed live, the members had to pick it up on the fly.  Nonetheless, the "organic" feel is something I value, and doesn't always come across well in "forced" efforts.

Miles also forced 1st or 2nd takes on Kind of Blue, and only let the players see the sketches right before they started. The results came from a group of musicians that not only had history with each other, but were drawing from the same musical scened.