Any piece that you have lots of recordings of but still not completely happy?

[Que]

Bernius is a very gifted choral conductor, but he never seems to be interested in anything later than Willibald Gluck.  Ditto Ton Koopman (Mozart) and Thomas Hengelbrock (Haydn).  Marc Minkowski can drive his music with a turbo like there is no tomorrow - imo what a great Missa performance needs - but I don't think he will touch Beethoven either.  Alas! 

Minkowksi is an interesting prospect! I think of all mentioned, Bruno Weil did the most LvB sofar (including the Choral Fantasy), so if I would have to make a bet my money would be on him!

BTW, Bernius did some Mozart, Mendelssohn and Brahms on Carus.

Q

[FideLeo]

BTW, Bernius did some Mozart, Mendelssohn and Brahms on Carus.

Q

Thanks for the info on Bernius.  I guess I have overlooked his more recent work.  Ditto Martin Haselböck whom I mentioned in my edit of last message.   There is also Marcus Creed in the camp of choral conductors who are sympathetic to the hip cause.  All hope is not lost for a near-perfect Beethoven Missa as a sound document! 

ps. If recording Rossini's Petite Messe solennelle can be taken as a sign of larger things to come, then Robert King here in UK can probably also qualify in our list of hopefuls. 

[Bunny]

I hope your "dear friend" didn't urge you to buy expensive!

As do most other recordongs of the ninth.  Too bad the thread will be too short for all recordings ever made to be nominated in it.   

No, merely to take it as a suggestion if I ever came across it.  However, once I came across it, it became the so called irresistable force and I was far from an immovable object.  I'm sure if he's lurking around he will have a chuckle at this.

[FideLeo]

No, merely to take it as a suggestion if I ever came across it.  However, once I came across it, it became the so called irresistable force and I was far from an immovable object.  I'm sure if he's lurking around he will have a chuckle at this.

He is not lurking anymore! 

[Bunny]

So I had guessed.

[Jo498]

As for the German Requiem I am quite happy with Klemperer EXCEPT for Schwarzkopf who I despise here (her tone and way of singing are as far from motherly comfort as it gets). In fact, of the half dozen or so versions I have heard, the soprano solo is usually a problem. Maybe it is too high/too difficult to be sung in a warm and simple fashion as it should.
(Despite an unsatisfactory soprano the Kegel is a "black horse" but deserves consideration, mainly for the superb choral contribution)

The first candidate of mine would probably be Schubert's "Great C major".
Admittedly, I probably do not like the piece as much as I should (so I don't really feel getting ever more recordings beyond the dozen or so I have) but it also seems very difficult to strike a balance between the more classicist and romantic aspects of the piece. My favorite romantic one is the wartime live Furtwängler which has of course not very good sound and it is far from "balanced" as well. (In a similar vein, all historical: Mengelberg, Furtwängler studio, Abendroth). Of the more classical ones, E. Kleiber also has substandard sound and Leibowitz I remember as too fast and relentless, especially in the Andante. Szell is also a little too "classical" for my taste. Weil/HIP is even drier than that. Not impressed with the one by Wand I heard. Davis/Dresden is not bad but too relaxed and kapellmeisterish.
So I don't know. A wild ride like Furtwängler as far as contrasts and expression go, but faster, a little more controlled but without falling into quasi-Haydn with chamber orchestra (nothing against Haydn, he was a better symphony composer than Schubert, but there is nothing chamber-like about the great C major!)

Another one: Beethoven's op.106 sonata.
Gulda is close to my ideas of the tempo but he is quite "cool" and somewhat rigid, especially in the slow movement. Others with fast outer movements have ludicrously slow adagios (e.g Korstick) or other problems (Schnabel = messy playing in outer movements). Good and "deep" ones (Gilels) are usually too slow for my taste... Pollini and Rosen are among the best compromises but they are too slow for what I would like to hear.

[Gurn Blanston]

The first candidate of mine would probably be Schubert's "Great C major".
Admittedly, I probably do not like the piece as much as I should (so I don't really feel getting ever more recordings beyond the dozen or so I have) but it also seems very difficult to strike a balance between the more classicist and romantic aspects of the piece. My favorite romantic one is the wartime live Furtwängler which has of course not very good sound and it is far from "balanced" as well. (In a similar vein, all historical: Mengelberg, Furtwängler studio, Abendroth). Of the more classical ones, E. Kleiber also has substandard sound and Leibowitz I remember as too fast and relentless, especially in the Andante. Szell is also a little too "classical" for my taste. Weil/HIP is even drier than that. Not impressed with the one by Wand I heard. Davis/Dresden is not bad but too relaxed and kapellmeisterish.

[asin]B000001GIL[/asin]

It would be hard for me to imagine that you wouldn't find this one very satisfying. It was the best I had heard when I got it, and it is the best I have heard since then too. I rarely recommend things, but I do make an exception once or twice a year. 

[Drasko]

It would be hard for me to imagine that you wouldn't find this one very satisfying

That's a good one. Also, for various different approaches:

[Jay F]

I had a hard time finding a set of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas I liked. I started listening to classical in late 1986. Kempff, and Gilels were well-regarded by the Penguin Guide, so over the next few years, I bought Kempff's box set and individual CDs by Gilels, as well as assorted discs Arrau, Pollini, O'Connor, and Serkin. I didn't really like any of them. I tried Richard Goode during the '90s. I wasn't moved by it, either. I figured I'd given it a try, and I just didn't like the music, so I sold most of the CDs and didn't think about it again.

In 2005, I discovered Paul Lewis' first disc (Op. 31-1/2/3) courtesy of a Gramophone mention. I had never heard such wonderful playing, such tunefulness, in any other recording I'd owned. I couldn't believe I hadn't liked this music the first time I heard it (Kempff). I played the Lewis CD for the following year as if it were the only one I owned. As the new volumes came out, I eagerly bought each one. Within that time frame, Andras Schiff released his series one by one, and I found I liked them as much as or more than the Lewis versions.

Then I found George's beloved Annie Fischer box set for $9.99 as MP3s. I like those a lot now, too.

I have a similar, and still ongoing, issue with my favorite tune from the Great American Songbook, "The Way You Look Tonight." It's a greater American song than any recording of it I have heard (Sinatra, Fitzgerald, Astaire, Bennett, Buble, the Lettermen, Connick, Tyrell, or any instrumental [words' lives matter]).

I had the opposite issue with some of my favorites, probably because of the imprint principle. No Mahler 6 matters to me except for Bernstein's CBS recording. I know it has a lot to do with the speedy opening, but when I play anyone else's No. 6, it just doesn't sound right. I have probably switched to the Bernstein recording as often as not when playing another version. I caught the Must Have Different Versions of Favorites bug early on, and with a lot of music, I enjoy any version (Mozart's Piano Concertos, for example; Mahler 3, Mahler 7). Also, no version of Mahler's 9th sounds as right in the first movement as Bernstein's on CBS. It's also the first version I heard. Same with HvK's 1977 Beethoven 9 and Mahler 4.

The Imprint Principle rules. I've learned by now I don't have to try everything, and have settled on, for example, buying just one and a half sets of Shostakovich's String Quartets (Emerson, Jerusalem).

[Jo498]

Thanks for the pointers. I would not have thought about Sinopoli. I have/had the "chromium heaven" Karajan/DG (supposedly different from the EMI) that's not what I want. He is worst of both worlds: quite fast and straighforward but also massive with glaring brass, a sound I do not associate with Schubert. This was my first CD and it almost turned me off the piece... not being a great Karajan fan and not liking the DG I am not really in a hurry to try the EMI, I am afraid.

Giulini/Chicago I found disappointing as well: glacially Brucknerian. There is some blurb in the booklet about Giulini refusing to conduct the piece until pondering for years about the tempo relation of the intro and main allegro. But his "solution", playing the main allegro very slowly and with odd phrasing/articulation in the main subject I found unbearably mannered and not at all convincing.

[Daverz]

I seem to be fairly easy to please in recordings of Schubert 9.  I've greatly enjoyed Walter/NYP (good mono), Klemperer, Munch, Konwitschny,... basically the last recordings of it I've heard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV9YoCIxopc (Walter/NYP)

[Sergeant Rock]

Giulini/Chicago I found disappointing as well: glacially Brucknerian. There is some blurb in the booklet about Giulini refusing to conduct the piece until pondering for years about the tempo relation of the intro and main allegro. But his "solution", playing the main allegro very slowly and with odd phrasing/articulation in the main subject...

I have that in a box but have not listened to it yet. Will do that now. You make it sound like my kind of alternative Schubert Ninth (favorite being Szell's speedy account). Thanks for the "recommendation" 

Sarge

[Mandryka]

Sarge should listen to Bruno Maderna's Schubert 9 (I can upload it if you want)

[Jo498]

I got the Giulini when the Chicago and LA boxes were sold cheaply (slightly before they packed all of them into a box). If one likes his massive style there is a lot to like there. That Schubert 9th is a very highly regarded and respected recording, so there is a good chance you will like it. It's just that I think it is overly Brucknerian, that first movement is really very odd and in any case it does not come close to the "golden mean" I have in mind.

I just discovered that I do have the Munch in the "Romantic Masterworks" box. Not sure if I ever listened to that one. I should probably also give Klemperer and Szell another try.

If I am not forgetting any, I have

Mengelberg (ca. 1940, some cheapo documents box)
Furtwängler/DG live wartime
Furtwängler/DG studio
Abendroth live (Berlin Classics)
Klemperer
Munch
Szell
E. Kleiber/Cologne (Decca Masters Box)
Barbirolli/Hallé
Giulini/Chicago
Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw
Keitel/Putbus (super cheap on Arte Nova and actually pretty good in the early symphonies, don't remember their 9th)
Weil (my only true "HIP")
Davis/Dresden

I owned the Karajan/DG and one of Wand's (I think NDR live) but got rid of them years ago.

As the notorious M forever also loves the Sinopoli and an unlikely agreement between him and Gurn might have some meaning I'll put it on my list although I feel that I have enough recordings of the piece...

[Holden]

Chopin PS #2

Saint-Saens PC #2

Verdi Requiem

Interesting to read what I wrote nine years ago. Since then I've solved the Verdi Requiem problem. Karajan's La Scala Milan with Price, Cosotto, Pavarotti and Ghiaurov is my go to recording, even though it's a DVD.

No luck yet with the Chopin or Saint-Saens.

[Sergeant Rock]

I just discovered that I do have the Munch in the "Romantic Masterworks" box. Not sure if I ever listened to that one. I should probably also give Klemperer and Szell another try.

The Szell convinced me. I didn't care much for the symphony before hearing Szell. But as you said in a previous post, it's quite "classical" and may not be the ideal classic/romantic hybrid you seem to be looking for.

Sarge should listen to Bruno Maderna's Schubert 9

Why? I mean, why would you recommend it? As an alternative to Szell? I have these so I'm satisfied I've covered most, if not all, of the bases.

DOHNANYI   CLEVELAND
FURTWÄNGLER BERLIN PHIL
KLEMPERER PHILHARMONIA
ABENDROTH RSO LEIPZIG
DAVIS STAATSKAPELLE DRESDEN
BERNSTEIN CONCERTGEBOUW
WAND BERLIN PHIL
SINOPOLI STAATSKAPELLE DRESDEN
CELIBIDACHE MUNICH PHIL
SZELL CLEVELAND
GIULINI CHICAGO
GOODMAN   HANOVER BAND
HARNONCOURT CONCERTGEBOUW
IMMERSEEL ANIMA ETERNA
BLOMSTEDT STAATSKAPELLE DRESDEN
MAAZEL SOBR
ABBADO COE


But if you think Maderna an interesting choice, then please, upload it.

Sarge

[(poco) Sforzando]

Two above all:

The Bruckner 7th, where next to nobody plays the opening of the first movement at Bruckner's metronome mark, or the rhythms of the scherzo as notated.

Wozzeck, where the recordings that are accurate (like Dohnanyi and Boulez) seem lifeless, and the recordings that are lively (like Mitropoulos) are inaccurate.

[Ken B]

Shostakovich
Waltz #2
Which Karlo and I were discussing ... a touch slower, a touch less dynamic range.

Mozart
Symphony #40
Bohm is closest, but I'd like that approach HIP. Hogwood is pretty good but not quite there yet.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Two above all:

The Bruckner 7th, where next to nobody plays the opening of the first movement at Bruckner's metronome mark,

That is marked cut time half note = 58 and Allegro Moderato. Most performances are probably a tad slower but not much. I don't really have a beef with it. My beef is the cymbal clash where the piece actually sounds BETTER without it. WIth the clash it just sounds overkill plus no 2 performances really have the clash at exactly the same time it seems like.

I was going to say which idiot started this thread and then realize it was yours truly  (has it been 9 yrs?)

[Jo498]

There are plenty of Bruckner 7ths recordings without cymbal clash, I think. If I am not mistaken e.g. Gielen/SWF is both reasonably fleet (about 18 min for the first movement, less than 60 for the symphony) and omits the cymbals (and the older Rosbaud is in the same vein).