Need help on classical

[Contrapunctus666]

Hello, this is not your standard topic where you will list what you like.

I need a help with classical... I need some reliable people who will tell me what sucks and should be avoided. Much better than the threads "I liek this" that can be found on every forum.

In order to participate, you need to understand that jazz sucks. If that truth hurts your ego, avoid posting here. Thanks.

There are many composers. And more. And more.

Tell me:

a)which composers are soulless(empty)
b)everyone with no more compositional skill than Mozart or Schubert
c)everything that doesn't have the quality of Saint-Seans' third symphony.

If you are not 100% sure what are you talking about, then please... get some experience and return here.

Thanks.

[The new erato]

a)which composers are soulless(empty):  All - I don't believe in the soul

b)everyone with no more compositional skill than Mozart or Schubert: Almost everyone; those guys are among the very best

c)everything that doesn't have the quality of Saint-Seans' third symphony: Most - most are better, some are worse, but very few have the same quality.

Those are smart-ass answers, but your citeria isn't really helpful if you want meaningful answers. And jazz fans (in general, I isn't one) should be able to give you relevant answers.

Why don't you tell us if you like Mozart and Schubert, and whether you like  Saint-Seans (sic) symphony, and what you like about it, instead.

[Que]

Why don't you tell us if you like Mozart and Schubert, and whether you like  Saint-Seans (sic) symphony, and what you like about it, instead.

Seconded.
What to like is very personal. And not all highly skilled composers are liked by everybody. I like many composers less skilled than Bach, Mozart and Schubert for other reasons than compository skill.

So, tell us what you like in music, classical or other, and maybe members here will be able to make some usefull suggestions to you.

Q

[Josquin des Prez]

I need some reliable people who will tell me what sucks and should be avoided.

Most of it sucks and should be avoided. Genius is a rare privilege. That goes for everything, not just classical music.

Much better than the threads "I liek this" that can be found on every forum.

Considering the ratio of good musicians versus bad musicians is so uneven, stating ones favorites usually tends to save a lot of time.

In order to participate, you need to understand that jazz sucks.

Most likely, you are just too stupid to understand it. Har har.

a)which composers are soulless(empty)

Mendelssohn, Joachim Raff, Saint-Saens and Richard Strauss are the first to come to mind, at least among the major composers. If we are talking about the lesser masters the list grows exponentially.

b)everyone with no more compositional skill than Mozart or Schubert

How many composers with a compositional skill equal to that of Mozart or Schubert do you think sucks and should be avoided?

c)everything that doesn't have the quality of Saint-Seans' third symphony.

The music of Saint-Sean sucks and should be avoided.

If you are not 100% sure what are you talking about, then please... get some experience and return here.

If you are so sure of your own expertise, why are you even asking us questions?

[Josquin des Prez]

What to like is very personal. And not all highly skilled composers are liked by everybody.

So that means there really is no such thing as a bad or a great composer, right?

[The new erato]

So that means there really is no such thing as a bad or a great composer, right?

No. It just means that there are composer that are more liked by some, and less liked by others. Just as with posters on this forum.

[Contrapunctus666]

Mendelssohn, Joachim Raff, Saint-Saens and Richard Strauss

-4. very thanks.

How many composers with a compositional skill equal to that of Mozart or Schubert do you think sucks and should be avoided?

Dunno. I haven't listened to many composers, but everything else what I've heard (except CM von Weber) was better composed. I mean 3B, Bruckner, Paganini, Vivaldi...

[Josquin des Prez]

Dunno. I haven't listened to many composers, but everything else what I've heard (except CM von Weber) was better composed.

My dear friend, you will not find many friends here, seeing as Mozart is universally recognized as THE perfect composer. I can see a few problems with Schubert's compositional technique, and i've made my objections in the past, but not so with Mozart. Brahms spent an entire lifetime trying to approach the same level of perfection, burning tens of abortive attempts in the process, and still couldn't do it.

[jochanaan]

Contrapunctus, if you don't like jazz, then you'd better stay away from Gershwin; he was all about mixing jazz style with classical forms.  And you'd better avoid most of Leonard Bernstein's compositions too.

You'll find those who disagree about Mendelssohn, Saint Saens and R. Strauss.  Including me. All of those composers have both skill and soul.

Among my personal favorites are the Bachs, especially Johann Sebastian and Carl Philipp Emanuel; Beethoven; Tchaikovsky; Bruckner; Mahler; Debussy; Ravel; Stravinsky (who has been accused of soullessness but proves the accusation wrong over and over, especially with The Rite of Spring and Symphony of Psalms); Berg; Webern; Varèse; Hovhaness, and Gorecki.  Of those, you may want to be careful with Ravel and Stravinsky, since they let some jazz styles into their music on occasion; and Berg, Webern and Varèse are dissonant and complex enough to scare off a lot of folks.  But other than that, I think you'd probably like everyone on the above list.  Just be sure to give yourself time if you try Bruckner and Mahler. 

[pjme]

 I haven't listened to many composers,

As long as you don't live in the Gobi desert or Antartica , you could try to discover more composers. It's really great fun and you do learn something. After a while you will trust your own taste .

Keep us posted! Come back ,so now and then. Try a stringquartet by Fauré, a symphony by Haydn, a pianopiece by Bartok, a psalm by Schütz, an opera by Puccini, Brahms Gesânge for women's chorus, horns & harps. Varèse's Arcana will knock your socks off ( if you wear any). Don't forget that "classical" music is writen all over the world. There are great composers in Japan, Brazil, Iceland, Belgium - even the USA.
Go, don't be afraid!

[Contrapunctus666]

The same thread has been opened somewhere else: http://www.anus.com/metal/hall/index.php/topic,5961.msg33743.html#msg33743 and so far I've got this list:

- Mahler
- Sibelius
- Tchaikovsky
- Mendelssohn
- Prokofiev
- Stravinsky
- Ravel
- Shostakovich
- Gershwin
- Milhaud
- Schoenberg
- Henze
- Cage
- Verdi
- Copland
- Berstein
- Richard Rodney Bennett
- Thomas Adès
- Mark-Anthony Turnage
-Grieg
-Debussy
-Messiaen
-Chopin
-Rachmaninoff
-Saint-Seans
-Holst
- Raff
- Strauss

Thanks for the replies people!

[71 dB]

Pointless thread. We all have our preferences. People should just listen to what they enjoy, no matter what it is.

To Contrapunctus666: Explore and find your own answers. See the trouble. You'll get the answers that make sense to you.

[Superhorn]

  It's important for you to make up your own mind by trying the music.
Don't let other people's opinions prejudice you.
And another thing is the importance of repeated hearings. You might not some some works the first time you hear them,or they might be confusing and make no sense to you. But in countless cases I've found that something that went completely over my head the first time came to make much more snese with repeated hearings, and I even came to love the music,or at least like it very much.
Some people hate Bruckner and Mahler.I'm crazy about their music.
Many of the same can't stand Wagner,either listening to the complete operas or orchestral excerpts. I've been a Wagner freak since I was a teengager.
  Some people love Vivaldi. But to me,it's mickey mouse music, the equivalent in classical of bubble gum rock. It's so formulaic and predictable. It just goes along chugging away monotonously. I'd just as soon watch paint dry.
  It's the same with a lot oif music from the Baroque and classical periods. Bach,Handel, Rameau, Gluck, Haydn and Mozart wrote as lot of wonderful stuff,as well as a lot of run of the mill things,and their lesser contemporaries produced tons of formulaic hackwork
  There are generally two reasons why I would dislike a given piece; either it's uninteresting, boring and says nothing to me,or there's something irritating or off-putting about it.
  Vivaldi is just boring to me, but the music of French composer Francis Poulenc,which many other people love, is just plain irritating and off-putting to me. It's so cutesy pie, with so much affected mincing preciosity it gets on my nerves. But that's MY reaction. You might love his music, which is certainly your right. So try it and make up your own mind.
  There's great and lousy stuff in every era of classical music, but the problem is that not every one agrees with what is great or lousy.
  But any of us can change our minds,too.
   
 

[jochanaan]

...the music of French composer Francis Poulenc,which many other people love, is just plain irritating and off-putting to me. It's so cutesy pie, with so much affected mincing preciosity it gets on my nerves. But that's MY reaction...

Quite a bit of Poulenc's music is that way, but my first experience with Poulenc was when my college music department put on some operatic scenes, including the final scene from Dialogues of the Carmelites--a heart-twisting experience even with piano accompaniment, next-to-no staging, and student singers!  If you think Poulenc's music is all froth, hearing this will shatter your stereotypes.  And that's not the only piece he wrote that brings me to tears: the Concerto for Organ, Timpani and Strings, the Oboe Sonata, even the ending of the Concert champêtre for harpsichord and orchestra will cure you of believing Poulenc was only a "cutesy-pie" composer.

[Bulldog]

My dear friend, you will not find many friends here, seeing as Mozart is universally recognized as THE perfect composer.

Where did you get that notion?