Favorite recordings of Bach's Cantata bwv 21

[Antoine Marchand]

I think you're on target.  I've always felt that Schlick's voice is perfect for expressing tension and misery.

Nice to see you again around, Don!

... and that's exactly my feeling when I listen to Schlick. 

[Antoine Marchand]

Promoting your own stuff again, Ton?

Seriously now: even if it were 'just' your imagination, what would be wrong with that? Just imagine what it would be like for you to deal with mr. Bach's music with my imagination!

Must be your imagination again.

Seriously again: I might listen to these recordings again in the nearby future to check what my imagination tells me this time.
And concerning Schlick: could it be that aging was also part of the problem .... ? Anyway, I didn't feel comfortable listening to her in the first few Koopman boxes. I had heard her in better shape and circumstances before (and enjoying it!), both on record and live on stage. My guess is that both Koopman and Schlick drew the same conclusion, because after Volume 3 he continued with other soprano soloists, like Lisa Larsson and Sibylla Rubens.

Excuse me if I don't stop at the hilarious part...  For me part of the problem is that I don't see the problem with Schlick, at least I don't see a technical problem (pitch, aged voice and so), but just a problem of personal taste. Anyway, if Koopman and Schlick saw the same problem that you, as you suggest, they were really a very stubborn kids because they needed nine discs to understand it. Without to consider that Koopman directed a very high number of female sopranos through the 22 volumes of his integral recording, I suppose because of he was searching for some variety in this vocal register what it was not the case, for instance, with the bass where Mertens was quite unquestionable.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

When I listen to Herreweghe it's evident to me that his approach is more bland than Koopman (without the urgency of the prayers); just compare the Sinfonia or any aria sung by Schlick.

Based on that clip you posted (coupled with my life-long distaste for Koopman) I don't agree with this at all. From a purely sonics point of view that Sinfonia is extremely disappointing in how it's balanced - too many instruments sound as if they've been spot-miked and the result is a jagged, shaggy presentation. That oboe alone is so obnoxiously omnipresent that I'd like to slap the player/recording engineer. There are better ways to incorporate an instrument in a solo role without sounding like it's sitting in your lap!!

The other thing is your "prayer" description. Okay, you like prayer "urgent", by which I take it you mean dramatic. But that's not the true description of prayer. Yes, humans have their upheavals which translates into tension but prayer is a ritual steeped in a consoling regimen with the intent to help alleviate tension. It's all about the communal aspect between the cold, bitter, frightened human and the consoling God.

In that Herrweghe emphatically gets it right.

This goes beyond if one is religious or not. Musically Herreweghe understands what it's all about. And thus hits the Bach bullseye.

[Marc]

As promised, I did listen to Koopman (early version of BWV 21) and Herreweghe.
These are the results of the jury .... all caused of course by the preferences AND imagination of yours truly only.

About the versions: IMO, the lyrics of this cantata are better served by the early version (without the tenor soli) of Koopman. It just makes more sense to me: one soul (soprano) and one comforter (bass).

About the Sinfonia: I think Koopman misinterprets this piece. He treats it as a slow concerto movement with solo oboe, whilst IMO it is a double concerto movement for both oboe AND violin. Not only for that reason I prefer Herreweghe, but in the Belgian performance the basso continuo is also more prominent, which provides for a better rhytmic base. In short: for admirers of Bach's counterpoint there is more to enjoy with Herreweghe´s approach.
And, to be honest: I find Koopman's interpretation too much '19th century' romantics.

About Schlick: indeed, her voice is well-suited for expressing tension and misery, as Bulldog mentioned (and not just for those emotions .... what about comforting joy: I thoroughly enjoy her performance of "I know that my Redeemer liveth" in Christie's recording of Händel's Messiah).
But because of the uncomfortable pitch, Schlick has to work too much to reach the higher notes, which comes at the expense of her giving weight to the text. The pitch especially seems to work against her in the recitatives, her final aria ("Erfreue dich, Seele, erfreue dich, Herze") and in the quartet OVPP parts of the piece. During the latter she is not blending well with the other three voices.
For reasons like these, I value her performance in Herreweghe more than in Koopman.

About the recordings: Koopman is brighter, with more clarity. Herreweghe's sound gives you that wonderful comforting 'fireplace' feeling, which I've always liked very very much.

So, I'm sorry to say Antoine, but in the end I definitely prefer Herreweghe to Koopman. Despite the fact that Koopman's choice for the S/B solo version is more to my personal likings.

Apart from all this 'reviewing', 'relistening' to BWV 21 was a thorough joy (even with Koopman ). What a marvel this piece is! A certain mr. Mattheson got it definitely wrong with his negative critics, once upon a time ....

[Marc]

[....] For me part of the problem is that I don't see the problem with Schlick, at least [....] if Koopman and Schlick saw the same problem that you, as you suggest, they were really a very stubborn kids because they needed nine discs to understand it. [....]

No, not stubborn I think. Koopman probably didn't record cantatas-in-one-piece for this project. He managed to get a few soloists together at one time and then recorded criss-cross a bunch of pieces. My guess is that the first three volumes were recorded in quite a short period, and then were released seperately. And probably Schlick got a contract for the first 3 volumes .... and why not? She and Koopman had done some great things together during a long period of time.

[71 dB]

Is there much of a difference?

Some but not much.

I don't know which ones I have!

Who cares? 

I don't suppose Yoshikazu Mera is in any of those Suzuki records -- that would make it interesting.

No. Hamburg version is on Volume 6 and Leipzig version on volume 12.

[chasmaniac]

If a small forces recording is your kind of thing, I like this one I just heard on NML:

BACH, J.S.: Early Cantatas, Vol. 3 - BWV 21, 172, 18

[asin]B001DF6GGS[/asin]

I'm not alone!

[Marc]

[....] The greatest Bach works both move me and make me feel a tranquil joy. 0:)

Listened to another BWV 21 this evening (Suzuki I), and ended with a handful of organ chorales played by Marie-Claire Alain .... and yes, I fully agree with this statement! 0:)

[DavidW]

Yeah I'm glad to see how much enthusiasm this thread has created for that cantata!   I've ordered Herreweghe, and will look forward to hearing his performance.

[knight66]

I have only two versions: Herreweghe and Rilling. That latter has Auger as a distinct asset and the edition of the score is as for Herreweghe; with three soloists.

It is a marvelous piece and I do wonder at how the worshipers would experience these pieces fresh off the page, turning up on a Sunday and finding this integrated into their service. The lengthy sermons are redundant where Bach so often lays it all out for the listener. The trumpets are reserved for the final cannon like chorus that also combines the soloists. Bach has brought the listeners from sorrow to joy, doubt to certainty.

I don't have the same problems some have with Schlick and enjoy the pacing that Herreweghe provides; the tempi are that notch tighter than Rilling, though the latter is not at all sonabulant. The 1996/7 sound is marvelously full and detailed and forward, though the harpsichord continuo is strident. The emotional temperature is higher in the older performance, with a more Romantic swelling of lines.

I enjoy them both as much for their contrasts as the quality and commitment of the performances.

Mike

Mike

[Mandryka]

It is a marvelous piece and I do wonder at how the worshipers would experience these pieces fresh off the page, turning up on a Sunday and finding this integrated into their service.

Indeed -- I've often thought that. I'm an atheist but I would love to see a Lutherian service with a cantata or two integrated -- preferably in a Bavarian church.

[Antoine Marchand]

The other thing is your "prayer" description. Okay, you like prayer "urgent", by which I take it you mean dramatic. But that's not the true description of prayer. Yes, humans have their upheavals which translates into tension but prayer is a ritual steeped in a consoling regimen with the intent to help alleviate tension. It's all about the communal aspect between the cold, bitter, frightened human and the consoling God.
In that Herrweghe emphatically gets it right.
This goes beyond if one is religious or not. Musically Herreweghe understands what it's all about. And thus hits the Bach bullseye.

No, when I say "urgency" I am saying, well... urgency, not dramatic character. Dramatic is an adjective that I frequently avoid when I speak of Bach, probably influenced by the Leipzig Council.  When I say "urgency" I mean the pressing necessity of a quick answer from God, usually the position of believers before his Creator in a moment of great affliction. That's the reason because your notion of prayer is wrong because takes a part for the whole. There are different kinds of prayer as any dictionary article proves:

Prayer is a form of religious practice that seeks to activate a volitional rapport to God or spirit through deliberate practice. Prayer may be either individual or communal and take place in public or in private. It may involve the use of words or song. When language is used, prayer may take the form of a hymn, incantation, formal creed, or a spontaneous utterance in the praying person. There are different forms of prayer such as petitionary prayer, prayers of supplication, thanksgiving, and worship/praise. Prayer may be directed towards a deity, spirit, deceased person, or lofty idea, for the purpose of worshipping, requesting guidance, requesting assistance, confessing sins or to express one's thoughts and emotions. Thus, people pray for many reasons such as personal benefit or for the sake of others.

Most major religions involve prayer in one way or another. Some ritualize the act of prayer, requiring a strict sequence of actions or placing a restriction on who is permitted to pray, while others teach that prayer may be practiced spontaneously by anyone at any time.

Scientific studies regarding the use of prayer have mostly concentrated on its effect on the healing of sick or injured people. The efficacy of petition in prayer for physical healing to a deity has been evaluated in numerous studies, with contradictory results. There has been some criticism of the way the studies were conducted.

... and obviously different parts of BWV 21 (which significatively begins I had much affliction more poetically My heart was deeply troubled) cry for that sense of urgency, as its text makes clear... And, IMO, the performance by Koopman and his gang reflect better that sense of "urgency" and tension of a troubled soul than Herreweghe. That said, I consider Herreweghe a good choice too, although not the best Herreweghe.

That without to mention the rhetorical complexities of Bach compositions where some times the singers (as soloists or chorally) represent the voice of the individual believer, the community, the interpreter of the scriptures and so.

Based on that clip you posted (coupled with my life-long distaste for Koopman) I don't agree with this at all. From a purely sonics point of view that Sinfonia is extremely disappointing in how it's balanced - too many instruments sound as if they've been spot-miked and the result is a jagged, shaggy presentation. That oboe alone is so obnoxiously omnipresent that I'd like to slap the player/recording engineer. There are better ways to incorporate an instrument in a solo role without sounding like it's sitting in your lap!!

Well, you had an idea about Koopman's performance before to listen to this sample, but even so I think it's not very prudent to judge the sound quality of a recording from a YouTube sample. It's true, the oboe is quite up-front here, but I think the oboe takes in this instrumental sinfonia the role that the human voice takes in the subsequent solo arias and, IMO, the interplay with the first violin and the instruments that provide the harmonic support is excellent. Anyway, a matter of taste.

[Marc]

Well, you had an idea about Koopman's performance before to listen to this sample, but even so I think it's not very prudent to judge the sound quality of a recording from a YouTube sample. It's true, the oboe is quite up-front here, but I think the oboe takes in this instrumental sinfonia the role that the human voice takes in the subsequent solo arias and, IMO, the interplay with the first violin and the instruments that provide the harmonic support is excellent. Anyway, a matter of taste.

I have always considered it a dialog, somehow looking forward to the vocal dialog between Christ and the Soul in the second part of the Cantata (nach der Predigt). I assume that member Dancing Divertimentian had something likewise in mind. Anyway, I agree with him about the preference for Herreweghe in this movement. Much better balanced IMO.

[Antoine Marchand]

I have always considered it a dialog, somehow looking forward to the vocal dialog between Christ and the Soul in the second part of the Cantata (nach der Predigt). I assume that member Dancing Divertimentian had something likewise in mind. Anyway, I agree with him about the preference for Herreweghe in this movement. Much better balanced IMO.

That's right, but here the more prominent oboe voice is coherent with Schlick's voice which has the faculty (irritating for some people, I agree) of colouring the entire vocal ensemble.

P.S.: For some strange reason I hadn't seen your comparison between Koopman and Herreweghe. Interesting, but I fail when I try to get some excitement from Herreweghe's version, probably the remains of my old lack of affection for his "angelical" way. 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

No, when I say "urgency" I am saying, well... urgency, not dramatic character. Dramatic is an adjective that I frequently avoid when I speak of Bach, probably influenced by the Leipzig Council.  When I say "urgency" I mean the pressing necessity of a quick answer from God, usually the position of believers before his Creator in a moment of great affliction. That's the reason because your notion of prayer is wrong because takes a part for the whole. There are different kinds of prayer as any dictionary article proves:

I can't understand what you mean by the part in red above.

And when you say "quick answer from God" you get to the heart of the difference between you and me. In reality, there ISN'T any "quick answer". That's the point. Prayer in time of strife has at its heart the need to establish a rapport with God, a solid line of communication in which both parties participate. Unfortunately the most difficult part of this communication is taking the time to actively - actively - LISTEN to what that other fella (God) is saying. Which is hardest of all!

This can only be achieved by a concerted effort to temper one's restlessness, something we humans are not hard wired to do. We have to make time for a period of relative calm - quiet time, down time, whatever - in which outside distractions fade and the communication begins. There's no other way for direct communication to take place. Same for communication in general, right?

Then, we must muster the courage to begin listening and trusting what we are hearing. Solace.

So the tension fades as the encouragement builds. Solace.

And from there, strength. Solace.

NONE of this happens if we stay restive and flail our way through the strife. Or flail our way through prayer. That's not prayer.

... and obviously different parts of BWV 21 (which significatively begins I had much affliction more poetically My heart was deeply troubled) cry for that sense of urgency, as its text makes clear... And, IMO, the performance by Koopman and his gang reflect better that sense of "urgency" and tension of a troubled soul than Herreweghe. That said, I consider Herreweghe a good choice too, although not the best Herreweghe.

Again, this is looking at it from the wrong end. REAL communication means cutting out the distractions and actively listening (again, same for every day listening). It's in the text.

Well, you had an idea about Koopman's performance before to listen to this sample...

No, sir. In this you are quite incorrect. I didn't approach this clip with the intention to find fault. No bias. I simply wanted to hear what you posted.

but even so I think it's not very prudent to judge the sound quality of a recording from a YouTube sample.

Yet would you have objected if I had heaped praise on the clip? Same clip. As they say, turnabout is fair play.

It's true, the oboe is quite up-front here, but I think the oboe takes in this instrumental sinfonia the role that the human voice takes in the subsequent solo arias and, IMO, the interplay with the first violin and the instruments that provide the harmonic support is excellent. Anyway, a matter of taste.

Yes, solo instruments often take the role of the singer but, still, if the singer is belting it out right in my ear I'm not going to be a happy camper!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I have always considered it a dialog, somehow looking forward to the vocal dialog between Christ and the Soul in the second part of the Cantata (nach der Predigt). I assume that member Dancing Divertimentian had something likewise in mind. Anyway, I agree with him about the preference for Herreweghe in this movement. Much better balanced IMO.

Yes, prefatory yet not sneering at everyone!

[Bulldog]

It's a large and beautiful cantata indeed; a favorite of mine too. Over the years I have purchased several versions of this work: Herreweghe, Koopman, Suzuki, Gardiner, Harnoncourt, Fasolis, Leusink, Rilling II, Rotzsch & Kuijken, but my preferred version is still the one performed by Koopman and his gang, which is included in the first volume of his integral recording of the Bach cantatas. Anyway, it's not the usual version, but an early one with a lot of work for the soprano what is important to point out because Barbara Schlick (who also sings with Herreweghe) is not a singer for every taste. I love the inner tension and Lutheran seriousness of this version, noticeable from the very beginning of the Sinfonia with a subtle interplay among the oboe and the other instruments, especially the strings. BTW, I don't know if I can share the opinion given by Premont about Koopman's 3-CD set Sinfonia because I always enjoyed the instrumental parts of his cycle, although admittedly I have never listened to those pieces like music separated from the cantatas themselves .

http://www.youtube.com/v/qowLfgVViDk

That's a beautiful version of the Sinfonia - love the pacing, tension and resignation.

[Antoine Marchand]

I can't understand what you mean by the part in red above.

And when you say "quick answer from God" you get to the heart of the difference between you and me. In reality, there ISN'T any "quick answer". That's the point. Prayer in time of strife has at its heart the need to establish a rapport with God, a solid line of communication in which both parties participate. Unfortunately the most difficult part of this communication is taking the time to actively - actively - LISTEN to what that other fella (God) is saying. Which is hardest of all!

This can only be achieved by a concerted effort to temper one's restlessness, something we humans are not hard wired to do. We have to make time for a period of relative calm - quiet time, down time, whatever - in which outside distractions fade and the communication begins. There's no other way for direct communication to take place. Same for communication in general, right?

Then, we must muster the courage to begin listening and trusting what we are hearing. Solace.

So the tension fades as the encouragement builds. Solace.

And from there, strength. Solace.

NONE of this happens if we stay restive and flail our way through the strife. Or flail our way through prayer. That's not prayer.


Again, this is looking at it from the wrong end. REAL communication means cutting out the distractions and actively listening (again, same for every day listening). It's in the text.


No, sir. In this you are quite incorrect. I didn't approach this clip with the intention to find fault. No bias. I simply wanted to hear what you posted.

Yet would you have objected if I had heaped praise on the clip? Same clip. As they say, turnabout is fair play.

Yes, solo instruments often take the role of the singer but, still, if the singer is belting it out right in my ear I'm not going to be a happy camper!

ok