Mahlerly Challenged

[Josquin des Prez]

Solti isn't always fast, he is just a bit jerky. He also seems to take odd turns in tempo. He is fast one moment, then ponderous when he ought to speed things up. His conducting is just too schizophrenic for my tastes. His textures are a marvel of incisive clarity, it's amazing what he gets out of the orchestra (or maybe he was lucky and had insanely good musicians under his hands), but other then that he's too much of an hit and miss.

Kubelik seems to be the complete opposite. He is fast when Solti is slow (and vice-versa), his textures are thick and lush where Solti is thin and dry and so forth. The thing where they seem to differ the most is build up. Kubelik has a much more refined sense of development, while Solti seems to rely a lot on dynamic contrast. And yes, Kubelik really does have that special "Viennese" touch. Under his baton, Mahler ceases to be the "father of 20th century music" and seems to stand closer to the days of Beethoven. In a way, he sort of reminds me of a slightly subdued version of Carlos Kleiber.

[Marc]

As some of you know, Mahler is not my favorite.  However, I still continue to return to his music with fresh ears from time to time hoping the nut will crack.  Maybe it is the recordings that I have or possibly the pieces I have are not the best starting points.  So, please recommend to me one Mahler recording that you believe could help me to break through that I do not have listed. Appreciated.

I second Springrite's advice: look for some DVD's about Mahler & his music. Lenny B. made some, in his own enthousiastic way, and there's also a DVD Conducting Mahler, related to the Mahlerfest of Amsterdam 1995, with interviews with and rehearsal episodes of renowned conductors like Abbado, Chailly, Haitink, Muti and Rattle. And Chailly plays a main part in the documentary I have lost touch with the world, based on the 9th symphony and .... the song Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen. Really beautiful music.

If you'll follow this advice, you might not only get the spirit, but get the feeling, too.

Second advice (has also been mentioned here before, I think): try his songs first. Not only the orchestral ones, but also the ones with 'Klavier'.
If I remember it well: it did work for me that way, many many years ago.

Good luck in trying! If it doesn't work: there's still errr .... Bach!

[Marc]

Solti isn't always fast, he is just a bit jerky. He also seems to take odd turns in tempo. He is fast one moment, then ponderous when he ought to speed things up. His conducting is just too schizophrenic for my tastes. His textures are a marvel of incisive clarity, it's amazing what he gets out of the orchestra (or maybe he was lucky and had insanely good musicians under his hands), but other then that he's too much of an hit and miss.

Kubelik seems to be the complete opposite. He is fast when Solti is slow (and vice-versa), his textures are thick and lush where Solti is thin and dry and so forth. The thing where they seem to differ the most is build up. Kubelik has a much more refined sense of development, while Solti seems to rely a lot on dynamic contrast. And yes, Kubelik really does have that special "Viennese" touch. Under his baton, Mahler ceases to be the "father of 20th century music" and seems to stand closer to the days of Beethoven. In a way, he sort of reminds me of a slightly subdued version of Carlos Kleiber.

Yes, I somehow get this idea. Although I still like Solti in several Mahler-recordings. But Kubelik is not only a more refined developer (etc.), but also more lyrical in approaching the score, IMHO. Which works very well with Mahler's music, also in the later symphonies. Must admit I haven't listened to Mahler for a long time, but when I read a thread like this, I always think: must get that complete Kubelik box someday. Haven't done that yet.

Post scriptum: I do have Bertini, though!

[RussellG]

Bogey, I recently wrote how I got into Mahler either on this site or back on sh.tv, but I can't find it, so I will retype.

I struggled for ages with my first Mahler CD, which was Ivan Fischer's M2 with the Budapest Festival Orchestra (a modern recording).  I must have played it about ten times, but it never made any sense to me.  I was about to give up on Mahler altogether, but I decided I'd try one alternate recording of the same symphony first.  Not really knowing where to look, I simply bought the "most purchased" M2 on CDUniverse, which happens to be Bernstein's late 80's recording on DG.  This CD really busted the 2nd symphony and Mahler in general wide open for me.  I ony had to listen a couple of times and I was transfixed.  Everything snapped into place, including Fischer's version.  I don't have much Bernstein in my collection but in this recording he delivered one of the most powerful, gut-wrenching, awe-inspiring classical performances I've heard.  I feel like I'm walking on clouds after the magnificent finale.  Finally understanding Mahler's genius in at last one work, I was then able to move onto others with more confidence, and he's now my favourite composer.  Perhaps give this one a try?

[Bunny]

To me, Solti's Mahler is essentially American: Bigger, Faster, Louder equals better! Yay!

I like my Mahler done with more subtlety and poetry than that, thank you very much. For a beginner, I would recommend the Kubelik set on DG.

In no way I was trying to insult America or Americans.I was trying to illustrate how Solti's Mahler sound like, that's all. Which I don't like. "Bigger, Faster, Louder" are adjectives that spring to many others' minds when Solti's Mahler (or indeed, anything conducted by him) is mentioned, so it's not even just my opinion. Apparently many find him to be overly driven and careless of details as well.

I despise the notion that "Bigger, Faster, Louder" is better in playing Mahler and such qualities are indeed hallmarks of inferior products such as "fast food". But I do not despise everything that is American and I have never said that I am against the people of that country either.  Your fellow countrymen Spitvalve and DavidRoss have spoken and apparently they didn't feel insulted by my comment either, so I don't know why you are so ticked off by such a harmless post. If you were offended, I regret posting what I did. But it wasn't intended at all.

To say it one more time, to prevent all further arguments: I am against Solti's interpretation of Mahler symphonies, and fast food.

Did that last sentence offend you as well? Not really? Good. Now lets actually talk about Mahler.

Okay, let's get this straight: Solti's Mahler is essentially American because it's bigger, louder and faster.  It's just like fast food (American not Chinese, I presume) which is also bigger, faster and louder (?) the quintessentially American qualities which, as you have stated over and over, you don't like and which you consider inferior.  If this were a math equation, one would write:

American=Bigger, Faster, Louder=Solti=Inferior.

Now, if you wished to say that you didn't care for Solti because you find his interpretations too big, fast and loud, then you are free to do so.  If you didn't wish to insult America and Americans, then you would never have thought to describe these qualities which you have defined as "inferior" as American. 

Now, just to confuse you a little more, I will tell you that I am not offended by your posts; at this point I'm amused.  I find it impossible to be offended by someone who is so opposed to our "American" qualities of "Bigger, Louder, Faster" that he has proved himself to be completely un-American, that is, "smaller, slower, softer."

[imperfection]

Okay, let's get this straight: Solti's Mahler is essentially American because it's bigger, louder and faster.  It's just like fast food (American not Chinese, I presume) which is also bigger, faster and louder (?) the quintessentially American qualities which, as you have stated over and over, you don't like and which you consider inferior.  If this were a math equation, one would write:

American=Bigger, Faster, Louder=Solti=Inferior.

Now, if you wished to say that you didn't care for Solti because you find his interpretations too big, fast and loud, then you are free to do so.  If you didn't wish to insult America and Americans, then you would never have thought to describe these qualities which you have defined as "inferior" as American. 

Now, just to confuse you a little more, I will tell you that I am not offended by your posts; at this point I'm amused.  I find it impossible to be offended by someone who is so opposed to our "American" qualities of "Bigger, Louder, Faster" that he has proved himself to be completely un-American, that is, "smaller, slower, softer."

Thank you. Less is more.

[Bunny]

Thank you. Less is more.

Sometimes, but in this case, less is less.

[Jay F]

Solti's first recording of the 2nd symphony with the LSO is near the very top of a very high pile.  He is helped by Heather Harper and Helen Watts who are among the best soloists who have graced any recording.  Highly recommended.  And now all 80:53 has been squeezed onto a single CD in the Decca Originals series.
Solti's LSO recordings of the 1st and 9th symphonies are also among my favourites.
Give them a try.

I just heard Solti's LSO 2nd this year for the first time, when it jumped instantly into place as one of my favorites. I hadn't liked his M8 or either M1 on CD (though his 5th on LP has always been a favorite), so I never investigated beyond those on CD. Imagine my surprise to find I like this BMG cheapie.

I didn't feel offended by Imperfection's "Bigger, Faster, Louder" commentary, FWIW. It didn't occur to me. I spent time in McMansionville here last night, so "Bigger" was very much on display in my America, as well as "Uglier" and "Ridiculouser" (I couldn't get over a Rite-Aid architected and tricked out to look like a medieval castle, with four -- count 'em, four -- turrets).

As far as "louder" goes, I remember driving from DC to Philadelphia in the middle of the night after a Brian Wilson concert in DC a couple of years ago, and hearing that "Well, I would walk 500 miles" song at full blast at 2 a.m. on a Monday morning in front of a chain restaurant along I-95. And I'm sure I don't need to mention rapmobiles, any day of the week.

I'm sure some ugly version of "faster" will occur to me sometime soon.

[imperfection]

Good to see most Americans here have an open-mind and are not easily offended.  Others might need to learn how to chill from them 

As for Solti's LSO 2nd, I can say that it is much better recorded than the Decca CSO remake...that whole set is problematic in recorded sound anyways. Soloists are severely highlighted, the brass has too bright and sharp an edge, and the whole orchestra just sounds like a chamber group trying desperately to sound "big", "fat" and "muscular". But obviously, most of the players in CSO are indeed technically amazing to hear. Just in my opinion, they aren't the most virtuousic orchestra ever. Not even close.

[Jay F]

Be less Mahlerly Challenged. I am selling two of my recent Mahler 7s, both rather well-received (though not by me). They're both Like New.

One is the Tennstedt Live BBC Legends version, which sells new for $35 on Amazon, $27 on AM. You can have mine for $20 plus shipping.

The other is Michael Gielen's, which you can have for $10 plus shipping ($19.99 Amazon/$9.66 AM).

[mc ukrneal]

Good to see most Americans here have an open-mind and are not easily offended.  Others might need to learn how to chill from them  ::

Most American just ignored it - the whole thing just smacked of some knee jerk reaction. It also showed a lack of understanding of Solti's Mahler. Either way, I'm not sure why the person who posted it seems so smug (about Americans and Solti). Lots of people all over the globe have learned a lot from Solti (and Americans) and hopefully will continue to do so in the future.

[imperfection]

Most American just ignored it - the whole thing just smacked of some knee jerk reaction. It also showed a lack of understanding of Solti's Mahler. Either way, I'm not sure why the person who posted it seems so smug (about Americans and Solti). Lots of people all over the globe have learned a lot from Solti (and Americans) and hopefully will continue to do so in the future.

I showed a lack of understanding of Solti's Mahler? Tell me how.

[jwinter]

I showed a lack of understanding of Solti's Mahler? Tell me how.

First rule of holes:  stop digging. 

[imperfection]

First rule of holes:  stop digging. 

Good advice.

[mc ukrneal]

I don't think Bernstein share any of  Solti's qualities in interpreting Mahler which made me sick. Even though both could be considered "heavy-handed" conductors in Mahler, Bernstein pays much attention to detail and shapes every phrase and fine detail with care (sometimes with too much care, hence the excessive emotionalism), as opposed to Solti, who like I said, lets the orchestra blare and tear through Mahler's score which consists of extremely complex details that should definitely not be ignored in order to bring out a coherent and convincing performance. Why Solti's Mahler appeal to many is because it is like fast food. Tastes good for the time you are eating it due to its very strong and distinctive flavors, but in the long run fails to endure thoughtful repeated listening and in-depth analysis because it simply hasn't much nutritious value, or musical substance in this case.

I hope you will understand my metaphor, whether you agree with it or not.

This is why I do not think you get Solti. In essence, you are admitting you don't like him nor do you agree with what he does. And that is fine. But he would not have the endearing value that his interpretations have if there wasn't something more there. Why has his Symphony No 8 been well embraced by the listening public for many years now if he has no substance? I'm not saying you have to like him, just that this is your own view (which seems to me distorted).

[mc ukrneal]

This is why I do not think you get Solti. In essence, you are admitting you don't like him nor do you agree with what he does. And that is fine. But he would not have the endearing value that his interpretations have if there wasn't something more there. Why has his Symphony No 8 been well embraced by the listening public for many years now if he has no substance? I'm not saying you have to like him, just that this is your own view (which seems to me distorted).

Actually, you've said so much there, let me clarify. Solti does have a vision and the performance does have coherence (this is my biggest beef with your description, pun intended). We may dislike it, but I find it hard to argue this (within itself, it is completely coherent and consistent, at times eerily so). I think 'heavy-handed' is not right either. He could be bombastic, but the performances are not heavy per se. They don't lag or drag at all (you later say Solti is faster, so heavy-handed would seem to contradict that). Finally, I think he does focus on details, it's just you don't like the accents he makes to them or what he does with them.

[Wanderer]

First rule of holes:  stop digging. 

Post of the day. 

[Jay F]

This is why I do not think you get Solti. In essence, you are admitting you don't like him nor do you agree with what he does. And that is fine. But he would not have the endearing value that his interpretations have if there wasn't something more there. Why has his Symphony No 8 been well embraced by the listening public for many years now if he has no substance? I'm not saying you have to like him, just that this is your own view (which seems to me distorted).

I have wondered about this for many years. There's almost no performance of Mahler's 8th I don't like more than Solti's.

[marvinbrown]

  Since I started this discussion (discontent over the Solti set) many pages ago I feel a sense of moral obligation to jump in here and say that I hope the discussions in the preceding pages have not upset anyone here.  I do not know why I reacted with such disdain to Solti's interpretation, perhaps it had something to do with my very first unpleasant reaction to Mahler's music and the fact that Mahler's music was delivered under the baton of Solti.  All I ask of someone who is Mahlerly challenged is to understand that interpretation could be one reason, one of many reasons that could have made Mahler's music...oh what is the word I am looking for here...."INACCESSABLE".

  marvin 

[Bunny]

I have wondered about this for many years. There's almost no performance of Mahler's 8th I don't like more than Solti's.

Solti's Mahler 8 is my benchmark for that symphony, and his 4th with the London SO is also very special. 

I don't reach for Solti on an everyday basis, but there are those times when his idiosyncratic interpretations really seem to hit the spot; although I reach more often for the earlier recordings with the LSO than the later ones with the CS.  Another thing I will say for Solti is that his orchestras play and sound beautifully.  I've heard Mahler performances over the years where the play has been rough and/or the orchestra just not in sync; singers don't have big enough voices to fill the hall or have inappropriate voices; and I have heard interpretations that I would have to describe as just plain wrong.  I've also heard how some conductors can make Mahler seem long and boring; or the orchestras sound too thin, stringy, and lean.  Say what you will about Solti, his Mahler is never boring and his orchestras always have the proper heft. Nowadays when there is so much emphasis on "following the score," and the conductor's viewpoint is expected to be subordinated to whatever is printed on the score, it's actually good to hear an interpretation that is so highly personalized.