Mahlerly Challenged

[Bunny]

What is about their pricing that makes you think it's almost a budget label?  As far as I can tell, their prices are up there - almost $20 for a single disc.

Maybe it's the low prices I paid for so many of their cds?  When the label first started appearing at Amazon, the prices were comparable to record club prices, and I also have acquired quite a few of them at yourmusic.com (most of the Thomas Fey Haydn, for instance).  Nowadays they have increased the prices, perhaps as a result of the weakened dollar?  Who knows!  But the label is not as cheap as CPO, but it's still not as expensive as say, DG or Carus (which is really "premium" pricing).  Oops!  Someone is trying to sell a cd I own (and purchased for 5.99 at YourMusic) for $122!  What's really annoying is that it's not out of print, but has only had it's cover picture changed.  Some people are really into exploiting the consumer.   

Compare:
 

I must admit I like the cover with the painting (Goya?) detail better than the conductor voguing at the shore.

[Bulldog]

Maybe it's the low prices I paid for so many of their cds?  When the label first started appearing at Amazon, the prices were comparable to record club prices, and I also have acquired quite a few of them at yourmusic.com (most of the Thomas Fey Haydn, for instance).  Nowadays they have increased the prices, perhaps as a result of the weakened dollar?  Who knows!  But the label is not as cheap as CPO, but it's still not as expensive as say, DG or Carus (which is really "premium" pricing). 

Actually, it's more expensive than Carus by a buck (at least at ArkivMusic).

[nut-job]

Actually, it's more expensive than Carus by a buck (at least at ArkivMusic).

They are an overpriced label (not quite as bad as hyperion) that frequently goes to overstock/overrun/clearance/cutout, etc, ending up at Berkshire or at bargain-bin prices at a variety of other retailers.  I predict their Mahler cycle is like Lehman Brothers in July, ready to crash.  I'll be there.  If not, they can keep it.

[Sergeant Rock]

Now, the slow tempo applied to the opening movement of the 7th is just bizarre!  That movement is just bizarre anyways, but to make the whole thing sound so contemplative really is something- I'm not sure if I like it or not, but it's definitely welcome, and making this movement sound so incredibly different from what I'm used to (Solti) my make me even grow to love it more. 

Chailly's slow first movement is one of the reasons I love his Mahler 7. Ditto Maazel's. But for the ultimate craziness you have to hear Klemperer, Greg. He launches the Allegro in the same tempo as the introductory Adagio 


Maazel  24:22

Chailly 24:51

Klemperer 27:47

Sarge

[Bunny]

Chailly's slow first movement is one of the reasons I love his Mahler 7. Ditto Maazel's. But for the ultimate craziness you have to hear Klemperer, Greg. He launches the Allegro in the same tempo as the introductory Adagio 


Maazel  24:22

Chailly 24:51

Klemperer 27:47

Sarge

I have that Klemp 7th somewhere hidden in my collection, too.  And it is crazy slow, actually too slow for me.  In fact, as I recall, Klemp's Mahler 7th took 2 cds which was a real eye opener -- probably the only 2 cd 7th around.  As I recall, Klemp got lost in the details so that the symphony never really hung together and had a sort of "pastîche" feeling.  Right now the 7ths I prize the most are by Hans Zender, Gary Bertini, Lenny (NYPO)and Daniel Barenboim's more recent release (best sound of the three).  Second after them would have to be Kubelik's, and Michael Tilson Thomas with the London SO. 

I'll have to get out Chailly's 7th and listen again.  Slow approaches can be effective with Mahler, also speedy tempos can work as well; only consider Wyn Morris's 5th!

[Bunny]

They are an overpriced label (not quite as bad as hyperion) that frequently goes to overstock/overrun/clearance/cutout, etc, ending up at Berkshire or at bargain-bin prices at a variety of other retailers.  I predict their Mahler cycle is like Lehman Brothers in July, ready to crash.  I'll be there.  If not, they can keep it.

Funny, but for years Arkiv couldn't distribute the label.  I seem to vaguely remember seeing Hänssler described as a "moderate" priced label before they signed with Arkiv.  Around the time they let Arkiv distribute their cds, the prices started to rise.  I know that Gielen's cds are among the most expensive that they issue, although Thomas Fey's Haydn still shows up at the BMG music clubs along with some of their more esoteric releases.  That was also where I picked up a number of their Koechlin cds.  Of course at BMG the cds are priced very well.

[nut-job]

Funny, but for years Arkiv couldn't distribute the label.  I seem to vaguely remember seeing Hänssler described as a "moderate" priced label before they signed with Arkiv.  Around the time they let Arkiv distribute their cds, the prices started to rise.  I know that Gielen's cds are among the most expensive that they issue, although Thomas Fey's Haydn still shows up at the BMG music clubs along with some of their more esoteric releases.  That was also where I picked up a number of their Koechlin cds.  Of course at BMG the cds are priced very well.

Their Fey Cds are also listed as $19.99 at Amazon, although new copies are often steeply discounted by marketplace sellers (not to mention Berkshire).  Economically, they can go for high price, low sales, high margin, or low price, high sales, slim margin.  There is more than one way to make money, but given what the competition is doing, I suspect the high price large margin route will become less viable.  Certainly I ain't buying at their current Mahler price point.  Bertini chronically lingers in my shopping cart.

[Bunny]

Bertini chronically lingers in my shopping cart.

It was certainly easier pulling the trigger last year. 

[greg]

Chailly's slow first movement is one of the reasons I love his Mahler 7. Ditto Maazel's. But for the ultimate craziness you have to hear Klemperer, Greg. He launches the Allegro in the same tempo as the introductory Adagio 


Maazel  24:22

Chailly 24:51

Klemperer 27:47

Sarge

Moving on to Kubelik soon... heard his first so far- nice, but I can't say it's my favorite- might have to choose Bernstein for that.

I have an idea- to make the ultimate Mahler cycle playlist. So far, here's my list of favorites:
1- Bernstein
2- Jansons
3- Chailly
4- Szell
5- Chailly
6- Chailly
7- Solti
8- Solti
9- Karajan
10- Chailly

I think there was a thread about this already, though... oh well. Just saying, for now.

[Sergeant Rock]

I know that Gielen's cds are among the most expensive that they issue...

I'm somewhat alleviating the financial pain of the Gielen cycle by spreading out the purchases over years, and by looking for bargains: in cut-out-bins (acquired 4 and 10 that way) and by buying from Amazon sellers. My latest purchase, the Sixth, cost €17 instead of the €28,99 list at JPC or Amazon.

I have that Klemp 7th somewhere hidden in my collection, too.  And it is crazy slow, actually too slow for me.

Way too slow for most, and the ensemble is a little slack too. The orchestra probably had difficulty following Klemp's fist    But I do love it. It's really gotten inside me. The first Nachtmusik is modern magic: you can imagine where Webern derived his pointillistic style when you hear Mahler's movement at this slow speed. And the Scherzo is the spookiest I've ever heard.

I recall, Klemp got lost in the details so that the symphony never really hung together...

A valid criticism I can't dispute. However, since I love to revel (and, in this case, wallow) in the details of symphonic music, Klemp gives me what I want...and in spades 

Right now the 7ths I prize the most are by Hans Zender, Gary Bertini, Lenny (NYPO)and Daniel Barenboim's more recent release (best sound of the three).  Second after them would have to be Kubelik's, and Michael Tilson Thomas with the London SO.

Here are the Sevenths I own; favorites in bold:

SOLTI   CHICAGO
BERNSTEIN NY PHIL (SONY)
CHAILLY     CONCERTGEBOUW
BERTINI KÖLNER RSO
BARENBOIM STAATS BERLIN
ABBADO   CHICAGO
KUBELIK SOBR
HAITINK CONCERTGEBOUW
TENNSTEDT LPO
SINOPOLI   PHILHARMONIA
KLEMPERER NEW PHILH
NEUMANN   CZECH PHIL
GIELEN   SWR SO BADEN BADEN
RATTLE   CBSO
MAAZEL   VIENNA PHIL

I haven't heard Sinopoli yet. I should dig that out soon.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

I have an idea- to make the ultimate Mahler cycle playlist. So far, here's my list of favorites:
1- Bernstein
2- Jansons
3- Chailly
4- Szell
5- Chailly
6- Chailly
7- Solti
8- Solti
9- Karajan
10- Chailly

I think, on this fine spring day, my list would look like this:

1 - Bernstein Concertgebouw
1 (with Blumine) - Judd Florida
2 - Kaplan Vienna Phil
3 - Haitink Concertgebouw
4 - Maazel Vienna Phil (with the glorious Kathleen Battle...heavenly singing)
5 - Neumann Leipzig (although a recent first hearing of the Dohnányi/Cleveland performance really impressed me...surprisingly: not nearly as cold and objective as the reviews implied)
6 - Solti Chicago
7 - Klemperer New Phil
8 - Chailly Concertgebouw
9 - Karajan Berlin
10 - Ormandy Philadelphia

Sarge

[greg]

I've only heard 3 on that list, but I'm most likely going to listen to Kaplan, in maybe a week or two... seems like a recording with very mixed reviews. What do you like about it?

[Sergeant Rock]

I've only heard 3 on that list, but I'm most likely going to listen to Kaplan, in maybe a week or two... seems like a recording with very mixed reviews. What do you like about it?

Two things in particular:

The details: his intense, years-long study of the score paid off. You hear so many things so clearly that other conductors bury or ignore. One of the most obvious instances is the col legno episode just before the climax of the development in the first movement. When I've heard this symphony live, that effect has been startling in its immediacy and impact. And yet in almost every recording I own (and I own over 20) it can't be heard clearly...sometimes not at all.

The tempos: which seem to me perfect at almost every point in the symphony.

Unlike the other recordings I own, there is nothing that disappoints (well, maybe the Scherzo could be a little more intense, but that's a minor issue) and much that stands out as unique. It just sounds right to me.

Sarge

[greg]

Sounds like I can't wait to listen. 

[Sergeant Rock]

Sounds like I can't wait to listen. 

If and when you hear it, I'd be interested in your impressions. Kaplan polarizes Mahler fans. I think some people can't get beyond his "amateur conductor" status and it prejudices them. It's my contention that if heard blind, not knowing who the conductor is, some, maybe most of the naysayers would hear it more positively. Time for another mystery thread 

Sarge

[not edward]

SOLTI   CHICAGO
BERNSTEIN NY PHIL (SONY)
CHAILLY     CONCERTGEBOUW
BERTINI KÖLNER RSO
BARENBOIM STAATS BERLIN
ABBADO   CHICAGO
KUBELIK SOBR
HAITINK CONCERTGEBOUW
TENNSTEDT LPO
SINOPOLI   PHILHARMONIA
KLEMPERER NEW PHILH
NEUMANN   CZECH PHIL
GIELEN   SWR SO BADEN BADEN
RATTLE   CBSO
MAAZEL   VIENNA PHIL

Interesting list, which suggests you and I are looking for much the same in this symphony (I am very attached to Barenboim, Chailly and the Sony Bernstein in it).

I wish the Toronto SO/Scherchen live recording of the first Canadian performance were still available. It's got everything wrong with it that you'd expect from that pairing, yet it manages to be both electrifying and insightful--and probably the darkest view of the work that I've ever heard. (Oh, and he gets through it in, what, 67 minutes with no cuts?)

[Sergeant Rock]

I wish the Toronto SO/Scherchen live recording of the first Canadian performance were still available. It's got everything wrong with it that you'd expect from that pairing...

Yes, Scherchen's Mahler was always wrong, but never less than fascinating, and utterly compelling listening. I'll keep an eye out for that performance.

Sarge

[imperfection]

If and when you hear it, I'd be interested in your impressions. Kaplan polarizes Mahler fans. I think some people can't get beyond his "amateur conductor" status and it prejudices them. It's my contention that if heard blind, not knowing who the conductor is, some, maybe most of the naysayers would hear it more positively. Time for another mystery thread 

Sarge

Sarge, how does his earlier LSO effort compare with the newer one?

[Sergeant Rock]

Sarge, how does his earlier LSO effort compare with the newer one?

Wow, it's been years since I last heard the LSO version. I'll do a comparitive listen soon and get back to you.

Sarge

[Jay F]

Is it the best cycle available?  Most say Bertini's cycle is the "best" but Gielen's is at least as good, but at double the price.

I have Gielen's M7, and never play it. Don't know why. I just decide halfway through that I could be listening to another, better, version, so I switch.