Mahlerly Challenged

[Jay F]

I have that Klemp 7th somewhere hidden in my collection, too.  And it is crazy slow, actually too slow for me.  In fact, as I recall, Klemp's Mahler 7th took 2 cds which was a real eye opener -- probably the only 2 cd 7th around.  As I recall, Klemp got lost in the details so that the symphony never really hung together and had a sort of "pastîche" feeling.  Right now the 7ths I prize the most are by Hans Zender, Gary Bertini, Lenny (NYPO)and Daniel Barenboim's more recent release (best sound of the three).

I like Barenboim's, too. It's going OOP, I think. At least, you can buy it cheaply at broinc.com or Amazon Marketplace.

I just turned on Chailly's M7, and I agree, "pastiche" is an excellent word to describe both this first movement, and as well much of the rest of his Mahler. Some of the little moments are just wonderful, and I anticipate listening to this a lot this year, unless I lose interest in Mahler entirely (which has been known to happen).

Did the Klemperer M7 come with a dark green booklet about 20 years ago? I had some version that did that was ever so recommended, but I didn't like it much, preferring both Bernsteins and the first Abbado.

[Jay F]

Certainly I ain't buying at their current Mahler price point.  Bertini chronically lingers in my shopping cart.

It's under $40 at mdt.co.uk: http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/pages/product/product.asp?ctgry=&prod=3402382

[Jay F]

I have an idea- to make the ultimate Mahler cycle playlist. So far, here's my list of favorites:
1- Bernstein
2- Jansons
3- Chailly
4- Szell
5- Chailly
6- Chailly
7- Solti
8- Solti
9- Karajan
10- Chailly

1. Judd
2. Solti/LSO. This isn't my favorite, but one I've just heard for the first time recently, in Universal's THE ORIGINALS series. And I think it's freaking WONDERFUL. I am able to like a whole lot of different versions of this one, whereas with some, there is one right version, and one right version  only.
3. Bernstein CBS. Or maybe Chailly, which is new to me.
4. HVK
5. Bernstein DG
6. Bernstein CBS
7. There are so many I like. Old: both Bernsteins, Abbado. New: Barenboim, Tilson-Thomas
8. Bernstein CBS, Chailly, Sinopoli
9. Bernstein CBS, Tennstedt (new to me)

[imperfection]

Mine currently:

1. Sinopoli/RAI or Kubelik/BRSO (Deutsche Grammophon)
2. Solti/CSO or Bernstein/NYPO (Deutsche Grammophon) or Kubelik/BRSO (Deutsche Grammphon)
3. Bernstein/NYPO (Deutsche Grammophon)
4. Sinopoli/Dresden Staatskapelle
5. Karajan/BPO
6. Bernstein/VPO
7. Abbado/CSO (about to become Barenboim/Berlin Staatskapelle, though)

Haven't heard from 8 onwards

[Bunny]

Still can't decide on my ultimate cycle, but this is what I have on my iPod today:

1. Michael Gielen & SWR SO Baden-Baden & Freiburg / Kubelik (DG)
2. Ivan Fischer & Budapest Festival Orchestra / Slatkin & St. Louis SO / Urlicht and Finale from MTT&SF SO for Lorraine Hunt Lieberson's sublime singing.
3. Jesús Lopez-Cobos & Cincinatti SO / Boulez & SK Berlin
4. Levi & Atlanta SO / Fischer & Budapest Festival Orch. 
5. Barshai & Junge Deutsche Philharmonie / Daniele Gatti & Royal Philharmonic
6. Eiji Oue & Osaka PO / MacKerras & BBC Philharmonic/ Fischer & Budapest FO
7. Barenboim & SK Berlin
8. Solti & CSO / Gielen & SWR SO Baden-Baden & Freiburg
9. Ancerl & Czech PO/ Chailly & Royal Concertgebouw Amst.
DLVE: Eiji Oue & Minnesota
10 Reconstruction Barshai: Barshai & Junge Deutsche Philharmonie
10 Cooke Completion: Gielen & SWR SO Baden-Baden & Freiburg

[jwinter]

Still can't decide on my ultimate cycle, but this is what I have on my iPod today...

My iPod generally has one complete Mahler cycle on it that rotates every few months or so (was Chailly for a long while, currently Sinopoli), as well as a few key performances that permanently reside there (Barbirolli in 2, 5, 6 ,& 9, Ancerl's 9, Bernstein's DG 3), and perhaps one or two recent acquisitions (currently Solti's LSO 2, the only Mahler CD I've bought in ages).  I've kind of maxed out on Mahler, though I suppose I may pick up Tilson-Thomas or Gergiev when the inevitable boxsets come out.

I don't think I could put together a top set -- Mahler's music is so rich, nobody gets every aspect of it right.  Glad I don't have to. 

[greg]

I might have to edit my list a bit.... for 2, I might choose Boulez, after revisiting it again today. (I only have a live version which was posted here). I might even choose Boulez for 6, now that I think about it... maybe Chailly is too slow in that one? To be honest, what'd be best would be Boulez all the way through except for the Andante, where I'd prefer Karajan. Maybe there's a recording out there like that? 

[imperfection]

I might have to edit my list a bit.... for 2, I might choose Boulez, after revisiting it again today. (I only have a live version which was posted here). I might even choose Boulez for 6, now that I think about it... maybe Chailly is too slow in that one? To be honest, what'd be best would be Boulez all the way through except for the Andante, where I'd prefer Karajan. Maybe there's a recording out there like that? 

Chailly's 6 strike me as being sapped out of energy and lifeless (especially in the first couple movements, and there aren't that many of them).

[greg]

I kind of get that impression the second time around... I do like the slow tempo for the beginning though- in fact, I generally like slow tempos to start off anything. Why rush, you're just starting? But take it too slow and it nearly breaks apart and loses cohesiveness. Phrasing can end up sounding timid. That's why I like Boulez- perfect tempo, and played with vigor- and definitely not rushed-sounding.

[greg]

Listening to the first movement of the Kaplan/London... can't say I like it much so far. The orchestra doesn't sound big enough, and the dynamic range is slightly too large. The big crashing part nearly the middle with the triplet dischords sound like they're coming from a toy orchestra. He does play the slow part a few minutes from the end very well, very slow like it should sound. I'll listen to the rest later. Just first impressions...

[imperfection]

Listening to the first movement of the Kaplan/London... can't say I like it much so far. The orchestra doesn't sound big enough, and the dynamic range is slightly too large. The big crashing part nearly the middle with the triplet dischords sound like they're coming from a toy orchestra. He does play the slow part a few minutes from the end very well, very slow like it should sound. I'll listen to the rest later. Just first impressions...

For a completely awesome first movement, try Kubelik. That man is a friggin' poet.

[Sergeant Rock]

Listening to the first movement of the Kaplan/London... can't say I like it much so far. The orchestra doesn't sound big enough, and the dynamic range is slightly too large. The big crashing part nearly the middle with the triplet dischords sound like they're coming from a toy orchestra. He does play the slow part a few minutes from the end very well, very slow like it should sound. I'll listen to the rest later. Just first impressions...

Yes, that LSO recording doesn't have the greatest sound. It's two-dimensional and tinny compared to the recording DG gave Kaplan in Vienna. That's one reason I prefer the Vienna version. Tempos are more expansive in Vienna which I thnk is another plus for that recording. Where the LSO version really shines is in the quality of the solo singing, far superior to Kaplan's soloists in Vienna.

Sarge

[Bunny]

Listening to the first movement of the Kaplan/London... can't say I like it much so far. The orchestra doesn't sound big enough, and the dynamic range is slightly too large. The big crashing part nearly the middle with the triplet dischords sound like they're coming from a toy orchestra. He does play the slow part a few minutes from the end very well, very slow like it should sound. I'll listen to the rest later. Just first impressions...

As I recall, the orchestra play was better in the Vienna recording, although I believe the singing was better in the London recording.  It doesn't really matter to me, though, because after repeated listenings to both of Kaplan's recordings they lost their luster.  With respect to insight into the music, neither recording delivers more than the other.  Kaplan wasn't learning anything new between the recordings.  Neither is particularly deep or insightful and neither stands up over time.  I don't really understand LeBrecht's fascination with Kaplan, but my romance with the man is over.  For more satisfying 2nds I reach in no particular order for Mehta, Fischer, Gielen, Slatkin, Kubelik, Bernstein, Klemperer (one cd!) and some others.  I will admit that the SACD versions have been getting more air time.  My Kaplan cd and SACD gather dust on the shelf.  

I might have to edit my list a bit.... for 2, I might choose Boulez, after revisiting it again today. (I only have a live version which was posted here). I might even choose Boulez for 6, now that I think about it... maybe Chailly is too slow in that one? To be honest, what'd be best would be Boulez all the way through except for the Andante, where I'd prefer Karajan. Maybe there's a recording out there like that?  

Which Boulez are you thinking of: the cd with the VPO or the dvd with the SK Berlin?  I don't care for the cd at all.  There's also a bootleg live Mahler 2nd that I've heard but don't own.  I'm not sure, but it may be the same recording as the dvd.  I've only heard it once at a friend's house.  That was better than the DG recording as well.

If you want a speedy Mahler 6th, then look to Levi or Mitropoulos -- although I believe they both eliminate the repeat.

[Sergeant Rock]

With respect to insight into the music, neither recording delivers more than the other.  Kaplan wasn't learning anything new between the recordings.  Neither is particularly deep or insightful and neither stands up over time.

I don't agree with you at all. In my opinion Kaplan in Vienna gets almost everything right--certainly those key moments that I listen for and want perfect--and the performance has held up well to repeated hearings. All the recordings you mention have serious defects that keep them from being at the top of the pile although all are worthy contenders (the Slatkin surprised me how good it is).

To present a counter view about the Vienna performance:

"As to Kaplan's interpretation, it's mostly excellent. This first movement must be accounted one of the finest on disc--marvelously played by cellos and basses, the big moments pegged for all that they are worth, the second subject and quiet episodes gorgeously sustained and atmospheric. Kaplan times those tricky "breath pauses" at the movement's climax just about perfectly (note the changed position of the third cymbal crash), and no one makes more musical sense out of the closing measures--the trumpet swells to a real fortissimo, exactly as Mahler wrote it, with the final downward scale positively cataclysmic. The same virtues apply to the Andante moderato: ideal tempo, shapely phrasing, and beautiful string tone add up to as fine a view as you're likely to hear."

"No one realizes more effectively than Kaplan that troublesome moment just before the end when the "resurrection theme" gets banged out by timpani doubled by organ pedals, and you won't hear the final crescendo leading to that "punched out" last chord better handled by anyone, anywhere."

"In the final analysis, Mahlerians will want to hear it for Kaplan's own thoroughly sympathetic and cogent view of the music, one that should put to rest once and for all any questions doubters may have about his credentials as a true Mahler conductor with something to say and the technical means to say it."


Full review here This is one Hurwitz review I fully agree with.

Sarge

[Marc]

Haven't been listening to Mahler for ages, but I'm gonna throw a list in, without any thinking :
1: Kubelik
2: Fischer
3: Haitink/Concertgebouw live Kerstmatinee
4: Kubelik
5: Bernstein (Wiener Phil) & Barshai ex aequo
6: Barbirolli
7: Abbado/Chicago SO
8: Solti/Chicago SO
DLvdE: Klemperer
9: Haitink/Concertgebouw studio recording
10: Inbal/Frankfurt

But I share the feelings of member jwinter: I've kind of maxed out on Mahler, too. Also it's not really possible to put together a favourite list, and I agree with his argumentation.

[greg]

For a completely awesome first movement, try Kubelik. That man is a friggin' poet.

I have, a few days ago. Now, it was only one listening, but I didn't like the 2nd or 3rd symphonies (1 is perfectly fine). I'm working my way through his set, and am at 4 right now (first few minutes sound great...)

I also listened to the Adagio of the 10th, and it was painful to listen to... I don't know what he had in mind for it- it's so straightforward. Why conduct something like that that way? What is he aiming for in conducting it like that? I don't get it.

Which Boulez are you thinking of: the cd with the VPO or the dvd with the SK Berlin?  I don't care for the cd at all.  There's also a bootleg live Mahler 2nd that I've heard but don't own.  I'm not sure, but it may be the same recording as the dvd.  I've only heard it once at a friend's house.  That was better than the DG recording as well.

If you want a speedy Mahler 6th, then look to Levi or Mitropoulos -- although I believe they both eliminate the repeat.

I'm talking about the CD.

[imperfection]

I have, a few days ago. Now, it was only one listening, but I didn't like the 2nd or 3rd symphonies (1 is perfectly fine). I'm working my way through his set, and am at 4 right now (first few minutes sound great...)

I also listened to the Adagio of the 10th, and it was painful to listen to... I don't know what he had in mind for it- it's so straightforward. Why conduct something like that that way? What is he aiming for in conducting it like that? I don't get it.


I'm talking about the CD.

His straightforwardness is his trademark, whether in conducting Mahler or Bruckner or anything else...and it works surprisingly well. I like how natural everything is made to sound, all ideas are connected smoothly together, instead of being episodic and just having random climaxes here and there in attempt to create superficial excitement. IMO, Kubelik is incredible in presenting a work using storytelling.

[not edward]

His straightforwardness is his trademark, whether in conducting Mahler or Bruckner or anything else...and it works surprisingly well. I like how natural everything is made to sound, all ideas are connected smoothly together, instead of being episodic and just having random climaxes here and there in attempt to create superficial excitement. IMO, Kubelik is incredible in presenting a work using storytelling.

Agreed. Kubelik's Mahler is just very natural-sounding to me...a perfect example of a conductor whose performances may superficially seem straightforward and middle-of-the-road, but in fact bring out a lot of the details that sometimes get brushed over.

His recording of the First is certainly my favourite of the ones I've heard, and the live Das Lied with Baker and Kmentt is without doubt one of my desert island recordings.

[imperfection]

Agreed. Kubelik's Mahler is just very natural-sounding to me...a perfect example of a conductor whose performances may superficially seem straightforward and middle-of-the-road, but in fact bring out a lot of the details that sometimes get brushed over.

His recording of the First is certainly my favourite of the ones I've heard, and the live Das Lied with Baker and Kmentt is without doubt one of my desert island recordings.

Yes, I too, love the first very much. The second as well. Have you heard it?

[Bunny]

I don't agree with you at all. In my opinion Kaplan in Vienna gets almost everything right--certainly those key moments that I listen for and want perfect--and the performance has held up well to repeated hearings. All the recordings you mention have serious defects that keep them from being at the top of the pile although all are worthy contenders (the Slatkin surprised me how good it is).

To present a counter view about the Vienna performance:

"As to Kaplan's interpretation, it's mostly excellent. This first movement must be accounted one of the finest on disc--marvelously played by cellos and basses, the big moments pegged for all that they are worth, the second subject and quiet episodes gorgeously sustained and atmospheric. Kaplan times those tricky "breath pauses" at the movement's climax just about perfectly (note the changed position of the third cymbal crash), and no one makes more musical sense out of the closing measures--the trumpet swells to a real fortissimo, exactly as Mahler wrote it, with the final downward scale positively cataclysmic. The same virtues apply to the Andante moderato: ideal tempo, shapely phrasing, and beautiful string tone add up to as fine a view as you're likely to hear."

"No one realizes more effectively than Kaplan that troublesome moment just before the end when the "resurrection theme" gets banged out by timpani doubled by organ pedals, and you won't hear the final crescendo leading to that "punched out" last chord better handled by anyone, anywhere."

"In the final analysis, Mahlerians will want to hear it for Kaplan's own thoroughly sympathetic and cogent view of the music, one that should put to rest once and for all any questions doubters may have about his credentials as a true Mahler conductor with something to say and the technical means to say it."


Full review here This is one Hurwitz review I fully agree with.

Sarge

This review is only true if you accept that Kaplan actually did more than wave his arms in front of the WP.  Unfortunately, Kaplan's success usually rests on the arms of the concertmaster, who carefully rehearses the orchestra.  He's sadly overrated, and I still don't find his Vienna recording at the top of my heap.  For a really close reading of the score with insight, compare it to Ivan Fischer's recording.  That's my top 2nd right now and his orchestra actually plays with gusto, and includes women.

Re Slatkin: It's strange to hear his early Mahler.  He actually had some fire in that belly of his back then.