Mahlerly Challenged

[PerfectWagnerite]

Why not start at the very beginning, so to speak? That's right, Mahler's under-appreciated early cantata Das klagende Lied, which has a long composition history (1875-1901) and a tradition of neglect.

It is backward-looking enough, i.e., toward Wagner and beyond, and forward-looking enough (which could be a result of its nearly twenty-year gestation) to make it accessible and allusive to 'future' Mahler works.

It's also a pretty good story, as these things go.

You want a good story go for Sibelius' Kullervo, it's got murder, rape, incest and madness. Pretty much run the gamut of drama right there.

[Josquin des Prez]

Why not start at the very beginning, so to speak?

Because it's better to start from the very best.

[jochanaan]

Because it's better to start from the very best.

"You've tried the best, now try the rest"?

[PSmith08]

Because it's better to start from the very best.

Well, it's not like artists progress in their careers and build on what came before or anything. Also, a work like the 6th, 7th, or 9th might prove a little daunting to someone not entirely familiar with Mahler's idiom.

[greg]

Pffft.  Mahler-schmahler. 

Try the 9th next.  If it leaves you with an unquenchable desire to slit your wrists, then welcome to the club. You're hooked for life. I suggest Baribolli's 9th.  And an Exacto.

- gmstudio, member: He-man Mahler Wrist-Kutter Klub (joined 1989)

the unfortunate side-effects of Mahleria.... i suggest a healthy balance of the 4th as well, it's like putting happy lettuce bandages on your wounds 

[12tone.]

I would suggest you start with the first symphony.  As a whole it just starts the cycle so well with the slow quietness.  It's a friendly symphony too.  Once you're done with that one, you have the second symphony...and it's pretty much all a ride then!  Have fun!

[Josquin des Prez]

"You've tried the best, now try the rest"?

Shrug, you'll get tired of the best eventually, that's what the rest is for. My only rule of thumb when approaching a new composer is to avoid their later, more withdrawn material (if any) before getting fully acquainted with their standard repertory, but i think it's imperative to make sure your first impression is that of a mature and fully developed artist.

[Sydney Grew]

Any other suggestions on how to approach this man?

Very soon after the beginning of your voyage of discovery you should take the time and the trouble to immerse yourself in the sublime wonders of Goethe's Faust. Only thereafter - but soon! - listen to Mahler's Eighth Symphony; it is by far the best.

As for the others, we may state two rules:

1) all symphonies before the Fifth may be ignored - they are wearisome prentice works;

2) any movements in symphonies 5, 6, 7 or 9 containing Viennese street songs are of little value and you can with confidence give them a miss.

In what remains there are indeed worthwhile moments, but do not waste too much time with Mahler - there are many better and pithier composers able to say twice as much in half the time.

[Gustav]

Very soon after the beginning of your voyage of discovery you should take the time and the trouble to immerse yourself in the sublime wonders of Goethe's Faust. Only thereafter - but soon! - listen to Mahler's Eighth Symphony; it is by far the best.

As for the others, we may state two rules:

1) all symphonies before the Fifth may be ignored - they are wearisome prentice works;

2) any movements in symphonies 5, 6, 7 or 9 containing Viennese street songs are of little value and you can with confidence give them a miss.

In what remains there are indeed worthwhile moments, but do not waste too much time with Mahler - there are many better and pithier composers able to say twice as much in half the time.

[Symphonien]

Very soon after the beginning of your voyage of discovery you should take the time and the trouble to immerse yourself in the sublime wonders of Goethe's Faust. Only thereafter - but soon! - listen to Mahler's Eighth Symphony; it is by far the best.

As for the others, we may state two rules:

1) all symphonies before the Fifth may be ignored - they are wearisome prentice works;

2) any movements in symphonies 5, 6, 7 or 9 containing Viennese street songs are of little value and you can with confidence give them a miss.

In what remains there are indeed worthwhile moments, but do not waste too much time with Mahler - there are many better and pithier composers able to say twice as much in half the time.

Wow - is all I can say...

[Bonehelm]

Very soon after the beginning of your voyage of discovery you should take the time and the trouble to immerse yourself in the sublime wonders of Goethe's Faust. Only thereafter - but soon! - listen to Mahler's Eighth Symphony; it is by far the best.

As for the others, we may state two rules:

1) all symphonies before the Fifth may be ignored - they are wearisome prentice works;

2) any movements in symphonies 5, 6, 7 or 9 containing Viennese street songs are of little value and you can with confidence give them a miss.

In what remains there are indeed worthwhile moments, but do not waste too much time with Mahler - there are many better and pithier composers able to say twice as much in half the time.

Oh my god, do I smell a 72dB here?

[PSmith08]

Very soon after the beginning of your voyage of discovery you should take the time and the trouble to immerse yourself in the sublime wonders of Goethe's Faust. Only thereafter - but soon! - listen to Mahler's Eighth Symphony; it is by far the best.

As for the others, we may state two rules:

1) all symphonies before the Fifth may be ignored - they are wearisome prentice works;

2) any movements in symphonies 5, 6, 7 or 9 containing Viennese street songs are of little value and you can with confidence give them a miss.

In what remains there are indeed worthwhile moments, but do not waste too much time with Mahler - there are many better and pithier composers able to say twice as much in half the time.

Since a student of music wouldn't necessarily call a Ländler a street song in the traditional sense, we immediately discard Point the Second on grounds of irrelevancy.

As to Point the First, we recall that Gustav Mahler was born in 1860. The First was completely completed in 1906 (A.M. 45), the Second in 1903 (A.M. 42), the Third in 1906 (A.M. 45), and the Fourth in 1910 (A.M. 49, though revisions began in 1901: A.M. 40). It would be well nigh onto impossible to argue that the mature Mahler of 1901 to 1910 would be allowing 'wearisome prentice' material to remain, given the fully developed musical grammar unveiled in the Fifth (comp. 1902), the Sixth (1904, rev. c. 1906), and the Seventh (1905, rev. foll.) We, thus, discard Point the First on grounds of irrationality.

Otherwise, fine advice. 

[max]

I don't know why Mahler so often reminds me of Nietzsche. He seems to me to be THE EXISTENTIALIST among composers...every note from his 1st symphony to his last and all the symphonic songs in-between.

[Sydney Grew]

The First was completely completed in 1906 (A.M. 45), the Second in 1903 (A.M. 42), the Third in 1906 (A.M. 45), and the Fourth in 1910 (A.M. 49, though revisions began in 1901: A.M. 40).

Wrong information!

The first (wearisome prentice work) was completed in 1888;
the second (more wearisome prentice work) was completed in 1894;
the third (further wearisome prentice work) was completed in 1896;
the fourth (yet more wearisome prentice work) was completed in 1900;
the fifth was completed in 1902 - Mahler was at last up to speed;
the sixth was completed in 1905;
the seventh was also completed in 1905;
the eighth was completed in 1907;
and the ninth was completed in 1910.

The so-called tenth was left incomplete at the time of Mahler's unfortunate death in 1911.

Remember that mere revisions cannot change the fundamental wearisome concept and nature of a work!

[bassio]

Because it's better to start from the very best.

Maybe you're right Josquin .. life is too short.

Anyway, I thank you all for your informative replies. So I will take your advice .. I will stick with the sixth until it makes total sense.

Surprisingly, I did not find the problem with his tonal language .. but I suspect it is the length that will make Mahler takes time.

But what strikes me that it is more of an 'epic' .. not 'tragic'.
Of course the ending is 'tragic' though

Anyway, is Mahler a controversial composer (generally speaking)?

[greg]

Anyway, is Mahler a controversial composer (generally speaking)?

in his time, definetely!

nowadays the real controversial composers are way more controversial than Mahler- Schoenberg and his 12-tone descendants from the Darmstdadt school, the minimalists, Stockhausen, etc.... i wouldn't call him very controversial anymore...

[Grazioso]

Controversial? About as mainstream and widely accepted/loved as you can get--and with good reason, for the symphonies are diverse, intellectually engrossing, emotionally moving, and filled with one glorious melody after another. If you enjoyed the 6th, just start listening to any of the others. Except for their massive scale, Mahler's symphonies should be quite approachable for just about anyone used to the sort of late/neo-romantic music that permeates our culture via film, TV, etc. I got into Mahler right as I was first discovering classical music.

[longears]

Oh my god, do I smell a 72dB here?

No. 71dB means well.  Exasperating at times, but still lovable.  Like PaulB, bless his heart.

Surprisingly, I did not find the problem with his tonal language .. but I suspect it is the length that will make Mahler takes time.

Yep, conventional tonality using intervals which may be naturally pleasing to the ear, much as certain aromas are naturally pleasing to our sense of smell.  Length is an issue.  I know of only one composer whose work suffers more from resistance to the blue pencil.

That said, let me help you put my opinion in context: after Sibelius and Beethoven, Mahler is my favorite symphonist despite his shortcomings as an artist.  He might never have written a sour note--which may be why he seems to have kept them all!  And I second everything Grazioso says in the previous post. 

Edited in response to gentle chastisement. 

[PSmith08]

Remember that mere revisions cannot change the fundamental wearisome concept and nature of a work!

Correct information, Slick. My usage of "completely completed" was my insurance policy against your necessary retort, though, in some cases, revisions were ongoing. It would have, in those cases, been better to have said "as completely completed as they would be due to Mahler's untimely death." In any event, while I appreciate your tacit usage of a kind of Kant's categorical imperative, some sort of argument might be nice for your dismissal. I don't see how a revision, speaking in a philological sense, cannot entail a fundamental change in a work. Indeed, speaking in that philological sense, I would argue that a revision needs to entail some such change, otherwise it is a mere correction. So, since I get to listen to 'you and other experts,' why don't ya'll convince me?

I take it, though, that you'll concede Point the First.

[12tone.]

in his time, definetely!

nowadays the real controversial composers are way more controversial than Mahler- Schoenberg and his 12-tone descendants from the Darmstdadt school, the minimalists, Stockhausen, etc.... i wouldn't call him very controversial anymore...

And others too.

I think it has to end soon.  You can't get any quieter than 4'33" and you can't get any more um...piercing than Threnody.

So what's left?