CPE Bach (Carl Philipp Emanuel)

[Opus131]

I remember reading of an encounter between Bach and a very young Haydn, i think when he was employed for Morzin if not even earlier.

As i remember it, Haydn performed one of Bach's works, and Bach approached him complementing the young Haydn for being one of the few who actually understood his music.

Sadly, i'm not sure how much of this story i'm recollecting correctly but it was interesting first because it revealed that Haydn had an intimate connection to the music of Bach and that Bach felt he was somewhat misunderstood by his contemporaries.

Judging the music of C.P.E. Bach for us today is a bit haphazard simply because it immediately calls for comparisons with the music of his father which is a bit unfair. Bach senior also presented a problem for C.P.E. who had the difficult task of carrying over the innovations of his father, incorporate them into new emerging musical styles in an age of rapid change, while also attempting to forge his own unique voice in the process. I'm sure that wasn't exactly easy.

[Mandryka]

Inspiring comments from Spanyi on the Wurttemberg Sonatas as Tolkienesque

 
These sonatas are not only long and technically difficult, but also contain a wealth of ideas and characters. In his last period C.P.E. Bach very consciously took steps to wards concise, extremely concentrated forms and a certain abstraction. In the 'Württemberg' Sonatas he makes very generous use of a wide range of thematic material.


As a result both of this and of the extended forms employed, the listener experiences the progress of time in a manner similar to the plot of a long novel or film. The sonatas have almost 'symphonic' or even 'operatic' dimensions and attitude. Far from being abstract, this music could rather be called romantic, conjuring up memories or causing us to imagine fantastic, colourful, extraordinary landscapes – in my mind similar to Tolkien's Middle Earth...

<snipped some stuff about the best instrument to use for them>

[Mandryka]

I thought this comment from Spanyi v 29 was worth noting for the ideas about the evolution of Bach's style

One exciting feature of the Wq 52 set of sonatas – published as the second sequel
of the famous Sonatas with Varied Reprises (found on Volume 21 [BIS-1624]),
following the first sequel (Wq 51, on Volumes 26 & 27 [BIS-2040 & 2043]) – is the
inclusion of two sonatas composed much earlier than the rest of the set. While
most of the Wq 50, 51 and 52 sonatas were composed between 1758 and 1762,
the Zweyte Fortsetzung set contains two sonatas from the 1740s: No. 1 in E flat
major from 1747 (on Volume 28 [BIS-2045]) and No. 4 in F sharp minor from 1744
on the present disc. Stylistically these differ radically from the rest of the set;
instead they are closest to the 'Württemberg' Sonatas, published in 1744, and to
the sonatas composed directly thereafter, included on Volumes 24 & 25 [BIS-1764 &
1819]. Both sonatas feature long forms, a highly dramatic musical language with
many colourful contrasts and textures that are more massive and complex than
those of the later sonatas, composed at a time when the composer was already
seeking a new language through lighter, more gallant stylistic elements and a
very refined and transparent keyboard writing

[Mandryka]

Some interesting thoughts on some of CPE Bach's keyboard works here. It seems his music is going through a kind of resurgence and re-evaluation.

I wonder what Spanyi or Hogwood would think about some of Charles Rosen's thoughts on the music of CPE Bach:

"C.P.E. Bach's horizon is wider harmonically, but his practice is incoherent: he is more interested in local effects- he delights in harmonic shock, as did Haydn; but Haydn knew how to weld his effects together, and his most disparate harmonies are not only reconciled but even explained by what follows as well as implied by what precedes."

"C.P.E. Bach's grandeur lacks breadth just as his passion lacked wit."

-Charles Rosen



 

The  this sonata  must be the sort of thing Rosen was talking about I guess, and in truth I find it really challenging music. Interesting that Alexander Lonquich has championed it. For me it just shows how alien the 18th century is to me, as alien as Machaut.

I've not heard the Lonquich yet, I just wanted an example from YouTube - it's on v29 Spanyi.

[vers la flamme]

^Yes, I see what you mean; this is super weird. Such odd chromaticism and modulation, all over the place, not at all like Mozartian chromaticism. Lots of oddly timed pauses. Definitely piques my interest about CPE Bach's keyboard works... maybe I'll see if I can find these Württemberg Sonatas I keep seeing y'all talk about (is this one of them?)

[Mandryka]

^Yes, I see what you mean; this is super weird. Such odd chromaticism and modulation, all over the place, not at all like Mozartian chromaticism. Lots of oddly timed pauses. Definitely piques my interest about CPE Bach's keyboard works... maybe I'll see if I can find these Württemberg Sonatas I keep seeing y'all talk about (is this one of them?)

No it's not a Wurttemberg -- it's a million miles away from those sonatas. I suspect it's a real outlier, and what it shows to me is how much unexplored expressive potentiality there is even in common practice tonality. Lonquich is right to try to make some sort of sense out of it!

Here's what Darrell M. Berg says about it (he's General Editor of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach: The Complete Works.)

Bach seems to have intended this sonata as a study in discontinuity. Its opening
Allegro has frequent dynamic contrasts, jagged melodic contours and many
empty beats, all of which contribute to its capriciousness. After the conclusion
of the first movement in C major, the second, a short, obviously transitional
Adagio assai begins, unexpectedly, in the Neapolitan key: D flat major. It ulti -
mately becomes tonally unstable, travelling through several keys and ending on
a dominant harmony that requires resolution to C major. The resolution takes
place only after the Andante has begun. This movement, like the first, has a
restless character. Once more, contrasting dynamics add to its feeling of disjointedness. Interestingly, the autograph score of this sonata contains one of Bach's first uses of the word crescendo, indicating two smooth changes of dynamics that contrast with all of the sudden ones.

[vers la flamme]

I suspect it's a real outlier, and what it shows to me is how much unexplored expressive potentiality there is even in common practice tonality.

I think it was Schoenberg who said "there is still a lot of great music to be written in C major".

[Mandryka]

A summary of my conclusions about Bach's keyboard music so far.

He is a very great composer of keyboard music with one reservation -- the famous Kenner und Liebhaber sonatas. I just can't get on with them! Some fabulous rondos in the set, and maybe fantasies too  -- but the sonatas, well I'm not finding they're  as satisfying to hear as the Probestucke, the Fortsetzung, the Wurttemburg and so on.  I'm clearly not enough of a kenner!

I'm sure I shall eat my words! I'm about to download Peter Serkin's recordings, and they may be what I need.

[Mandryka]

Here's an example -- the F major sonata from Kenner und Liebhaber I Wq55/5. I'm sure there are vey clever things going on, but it seems to me to be not very eloquent music. It feels like "academic" music.  I suppose that's what kenners are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhi3ahTyqac&ab_channel=Mikl%C3%B3sSp%C3%A1nyi-Topic

[Skogwald]

Spanyi on the Probestücke sonatas

In my opinion it is no exaggeration to say that C.P.E. Bach's eighteen Probestücke, grouped as six sonatas and published as an appendix to his epoch-making keyboard treatise Versuch über die wahre Art das Clavier zu spielen, are among the most substantial works in the composer's entire keyboard oeuvre. Although Bach's keyboard music shows an amazingly constant high quality it also has some extraordinary high points. I am prepared not only to rank the set of the Probestücke among these, but also to propose it as a pinnacle in the entire literature for the keyboard.

C.P.E. Bach's publications with pedagogical aims show that he never found composing for less skilled or amateur players or even beginners a burden but rather a special challenge, resulting (as in the case of some other brilliant key-board educators such as Johann Sebastian Bach or Bela Bart6k) in excellent pieces. But even among C. R E. Bach's pedagogical works the Probestücke hold a special place. In this publication Bach collected his most precious ideas, as if to demonstrate his finest skills as composer and pedagogue as well as his ideas about the aesthetics of keyboard playing: an hour's worth of music of pure beauty, full of the most varied and sparkling ideas. In most cases I have even refrained from adding embellishments to the repeats in binary movements in order to pre-sent these musical diamonds in their original, unadulterated, marvellous glow.

Even technical restrictions did not discourage Bach: the Probestücke are composed so that they could be played on less modern instruments of the time, with a keyboard range of only four octaves. We also know, from the text part of the Versuch, that Bach did not rule out the performance of the pieces on the harpsichord or other keyboard instruments although his preferred instrument was the clavichord. The Probestücke also contain some indications of Bebung, an effect similar to vibrato on string instruments and only possible to achieve on the clavichord among the keyboard instruments. At the time of composition of the Probestücke, more modern clavichords were being built with a five-octave compass. As the Versuch as well as the Probestücke remained relevant until the end of the eighteenth century (or even longer), I believe that the choice of a clavichord modelled on an instrument of the late eighteenth century is one of the possible historically correct choices. After much experimenting, my conclusion is that my large, late-Saxonian clavichord is a very convincing instrument for the Probestücke. Despite of its powerful and robust sound, the most delicate effects required by these compositions can be achieved on it. This is, however, only one of the numerous types of clavichord and keyboard instrument in general on which this music may have been performed in its time.

Very interesting post, thank you! Is the Spanyi the only recording available of these works?

[Mandryka]

Very interesting post, thank you! Is the Spanyi the only recording available of these works?

I have Hogwood's recording too.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000025ZFX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[SonicMan46]

Just reviewing my CPE collection of the KB Concertos last few days - in the first quote below (link given), his 'Concertos' using Helm numbering spans H 403 - H 479, or about 77 total; now   21 of these works are arrangements for other instruments, dual KB concertos, and Sonatinas - so, about 56 solo KB concertos. The second quote is a Google Docs list of the concertos I own which are on 11 CDs, as below (just showing the Rische box; own 7 volumes) - adds up to about two dozen, so missing 30+ works?

Of course, who to add and on what instrument(s) - really enjoy Rische on piano and awaiting other releases, but the others on harpsichord are excellent too! Now Spanyi on BIS has been discussed throughout this thread - he has recorded 20 volumes on harpsichord, fortepiano, and tangent piano (10 of which are solely on this instrument) - appears that Spanyi on tangent piano to fill in some of the missing ones would be my best choice, BUT these are pricey - however, for those that have a substantial collection of Spanyi in the concertos, which ones might be recommended?  Thanks - Dave

Bach, CPE - Keyboard Concertos (H = Helm numbers) (Source)
  Span of Works: H 403 - H 479
  Cello Concerto arrangements: H 432, 436, 439
  Flute Concerto arrangements: H 431, 435, 438, 445
  Oboe Concerto arrangements: 466, 468
  Double KB Concertos: H 408, 479
  Sonatinas for Orchestra: H 455-464 (10)

Bach, CPE  KB Concertos Owned
Wq 1 (H 403) in A minor**
Wq 3 (H 405)  in D Major^
Wq 5 (H 407) in C minor**
Wq 8 (H 411) in A Major**
Wq 11 (H 414) in D Major**
Wq 14 (H 417) in E Major**
Wq 15 (418) in E minor**
Wq 17 (H 420) in D minor**
Wq 20 (H 423) in C Major**
Wq 22 (H 425) in D minor**
Wq 23 (H 427) in D minor**
Wq 24 (H 428) in E minor**
Wq 26 (H 430) in A minor**
Wq 30 (H 440) in B minor**^
Wq 31 (H 441) in C minor**
Wq 32 (H 442) in G minor^
Wq 37 (H 448) in C minor^
Wq 38 (454) in F Major^
Wq 43/1-6 (H 471-476) in different keys$@ (solo/concerto)
Wq 43/4 (H 474) in C minor**/** (solo/concerto)
Wq 43/5 (H 475) in G Major**
Wq 44 (H 477) in G Major^**
Wq 45 (H 478) in D Major^**
Wq 46 (H 408) in F Major**
Wq 112/1 (H 190) in C Major**

^Ludger Remy & Les Amis (harpsichord) x 2 CDs
$van Asperen-Melante Amsterdam - Veritas X2 61913 2 7
**Michael Rische & Leipzig CO (piano); Berlin Baroque Soloists

[Daverz]

however, for those that have a substantial collection of Spanyi in the concertos, which ones might be

Volume 20 has what I think is the best recording of the wonderful Double Concerto Wq. 47.

[SonicMan46]

Volume 20 has what I think is the best recording of the wonderful Double Concerto Wq. 47.

Thanks Dave - don't want to buy a lot of these recordings and want a decent price - went to Discogs HERE which had a bunch of both the solo and concerto CDs but most of the prices were outrageous - however, found Vols. 8 & 13 for a combo cost of $18 USD, so made a purchase.  Also, setup two playlists on Spotify of all 20 volumes (split in half) - a LOT of music to sample -     

[Brian]

I listened to a piano recording (by Dejan Lazic) of the fascinatingly bizarre miniature "La Böhmer" and it reminded me of an even more manic, eccentric Scarlatti. Does anyone have any favorite modern piano or pianoforte CPE keyboard collections? I have the recent Marc-Andre Hamelin two-disc set but cannot remember the contents immediately, and of course the Pletnev DG recital is notorious.

Just started listening to the YouTube video above of the harpsichord-piano concerto and can't stop. The dialogue and timbral variety is so engrossing!

[SonicMan46]

I listened to a piano recording (by Dejan Lazic) of the fascinatingly bizarre miniature "La Böhmer" and it reminded me of an even more manic, eccentric Scarlatti. Does anyone have any favorite modern piano or pianoforte CPE keyboard collections? I have the recent Marc-Andre Hamelin two-disc set but cannot remember the contents immediately, and of course the Pletnev DG recital is notorious.

Just started listening to the YouTube video above of the harpsichord-piano concerto and can't stop. The dialogue and timbral variety is so engrossing!

Hi Brian - not sure this is what you're looking for?  If you want mucho discs, consider the box below, even Hurwitz did a 10/10 (attached) - Dave

[Que]

Hi Brian - not sure this is what you're looking for?  If you want mucho discs, consider the box below, even Hurwitz did a 10/10 (attached) - Dave

Hi Dave, I recently came accross that set on Spotify. And despite my predilection for period instruments, I was actually quite impressed!

[George]

Hi Dave, I recently came accross that set on Spotify. And despite my predilection for period instruments, I was actually quite impressed!

It's a splendid set!

[Mandryka]

I listened to a piano recording (by Dejan Lazic) of the fascinatingly bizarre miniature "La Böhmer" and it reminded me of an even more manic, eccentric Scarlatti. Does anyone have any favorite modern piano or pianoforte CPE keyboard collections? I have the recent Marc-Andre Hamelin two-disc set but cannot remember the contents immediately, and of course the Pletnev DG recital is notorious.

Just started listening to the YouTube video above of the harpsichord-piano concerto and can't stop. The dialogue and timbral variety is so engrossing!

I can let you have a transfer of Nina Milkina's LP if you want. She understood the manic eccentric Scarlatti side of the music. She made a Scarlatti recording too.  Milkina was a pupil of Leon Conus, Tobias Matthay, and Harold Craxton.



If you're open to tangent pianos check Lubimov's ECM - his recording Der Bote on modern piano too.

[SonicMan46]

Boy, CPE's Solo KB Works, a cornucopia of variety and instruments to use! According to the Helm Catalog, he composed just over 400 'authentic' keyboard pieces (H 1 - H 402) - my collection shown below; top first 2 on harpsichord, Belder on fortepiano & clavichord, Shornsheim on tangent piano, and Markovina on piano (26 disc box), which states 'complete works' but Spanyi on BIS has recorded 40 volumes - well I'm not about to sit down and tabulate the differences -      For those interested, some reviews are attached.  Dave  

P.S. about a third through the 'big' box - will stop after a few more.