The Art of Fugue

Started by The Mad Hatter, May 23, 2007, 12:37:26 AM

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Chaszz

#120
Bach is my favorite composer, but I've never loved the Art of Fugue. Have listened to it repeatedly in several recommended versions, but never returned to it the next day with any real enthusiasm, as opposed to many of his other works which have grabbed hold of me and not let me go for days or weeks on end. I would respectfully and nervously hazard the opinion that it is academic, dry and not really musically inspired. I do not think one should have to follow the score to appreciate a work, not when there are so many works in the repertory by Bach and other greats that make you almost fall on your knees with joy and wonder without a thought of looking at the score.

I also think that perhaps there is an Emperor's New Clothes effect at work. Here is a serious contender for greatest composer in history perhaps unintentionally producing a clunker. There is an old expression for this: Homer nods.* Nobody can believe it's not so good, so they keep trying new instrumentations, new interpretative ideas, etc. Perhaps there is not another layer under the skin of this particular onion. The composer certainly doesn't really need another jewel in his heavily-jeweled crown.

I am much more attached to the Musical Offering, written during the same late period of his life, which to me has transcendent beauty and inspiration throughout.

All right, gentlemen, take aim and fire... 

* I also hazard the opinion that some of the many arias in the cantatas are formulaic and not really inspired.

Scarpia

Quote from: Chaszz on March 25, 2011, 06:19:07 PMI also think that perhaps there is an Emperor's New Clothes effect at work. Here is a serious contender for greatest composer in history perhaps unintentionally producing a clunker. There is an old expression for this: Homer nods.* Nobody can believe it's not so good, so they keep trying new instrumentations, new interpretative ideas, etc. Perhaps there is not another layer under the skin of this particular onion. The composer certainly doesn't really need another jewel in his heavily-jeweled crown.

[...]

All right, gentlemen, take aim and fire...

You don't like it, so those who like it are deceiving themselves?   That doesn't strike you as a tad narcissistic?

Philoctetes

I can't add much, but this is my favorite version:

http://www.youtube.com/v/3jYEHzeNPs8

Philoctetes

Quote from: Velimir on March 23, 2011, 12:06:37 PM
Have you tried other recordings?

For me, at least, this helped out a lot.

Chaszz

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 25, 2011, 07:39:36 PM
You don't like it, so those who like it are deceiving themselves?   That doesn't strike you as a tad narcissistic?

This is I believe the 2nd thread recently in which you have tried to put words in my mouth that are different from what I said. I nowhere said anyone was deceiving himself. I hedged my opinions about with modifiers like "perhaps," "respectfully," "nervously," "hazard the opinion".  And since I knew others would differ with me, I invited them to fire back at me.

That's all they are, opinions. I don't pretend to speak for other peoples' feelings and opinions.

You, on the other hand, do.

Scarpia

#125
Quote from: Chaszz on March 26, 2011, 06:52:17 AM
This is I believe the 2nd thread recently in which you have tried to put words in my mouth that are different from what I said. I nowhere said anyone was deceiving himself. I hedged my opinions about with modifiers like "perhaps," "respectfully," "nervously," "hazard the opinion".  And since I knew others would differ with me, I invited them to fire back at me.

That's all they are, opinions. I don't pretend to speak for other peoples' feelings and opinions.

You, on the other hand, do.

Sorry, I did not intend to "put words in your mouth."  You said it was a case of the "Emperor's New Clothes."  In that story people pretend to like the Emperor's clothes because they think that they will be accused of being fools if they admit the obvious fact that the Emperor is not wearing clothes.   The analogy (it seemed obvious to me) is that people pretend to like the Art of the Fugue because they fear being called fools if they admit the obvious fact that it stinks.  Those are the words I supposedly "put in your mouth," that people pretend to enjoy that Art of the Fugue because of social pressure.  Is there another interpretation of your reference to this story?

Que

Quote from: marvinbrown on March 23, 2011, 08:05:54 AM
  Ok I tried this on another thread (the Art of Fugue in the Great Recordings Section of GMG) with limited success.  Perhaps I can find a larger audience here??  Well it is worth a shot so here goes:

For the past couple of days I have been immersed in this recording:

 

  I find Bach's Art of Fugue one of the most difficult compositions in the classical music repertoire to absorb.  I try hard to identify the principal theme, then the counterpoint theme then the marriage of the two.  I have had a lot of success over the years with this technique but every once in a while I lose the train of thought and I find myself having to start all over again. 

  The most elusive are : Contrapunctus 13 a 3 voix; rectus and Contrpunctus 13 a 3 voix; inversus. 

  Anyone here face similar difficultues with this work?  I would be interested in how you approach this work.


  marvin

True, Art of the Fugue is not an easily accessable work. BTW Moroney's recording is IMO not the best guide into the work - it did not work for me either... ::) Same goes for the other, old-style and rather dogmatic approaches by Leonhardt and Gilbert. (Don and Premont are not going to like this ::) ;))

Try Robert Hill's more modern and more free approach.

Q

premont

Quote from: Que on March 26, 2011, 07:27:03 AM
True, Art of the Fugue is not an easily accessable work. BTW Moroney's recording is IMO not the best guide into the work - it did not work for me either... ::) Same goes for the other, old-style and rather dogmatic approaches by Leonhardt and Gilbert. (Don and Premont are not going to like this ::) ;))

Well spotted, Que.

Moroney is didactic and understated as to expression. He is a good guide as to the counterpoint of the work.

Leonhardt is equally didactic, but he also interprets the work as the expresive music it is.

Gilbert is about transparency and beauty, also understated as to expression. Moreover he plays the manuscript version, omitting much of the final version.

On my own part I did not realise the great expressive potential of this work until I had heard the organ version of Helmut Walcha. This was the turning point for me. If listeners have problems with absorbing this work, I think they should concentrate on the expression and forget everything about counterpoint. It does not matter the least if one was not aware of this or that thematic statement in abbreviated note values in the tenor part or whatsoever. It is about listening and absorbing the expression.
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Que

Quote from: aulos on March 26, 2011, 07:39:28 AM
It is about listening and absorbing the expression.

And still we agree in the end.  :)

Q

Marc

Don't wanna ruin this thread, and obviously Marvin's questions are valid, but if this topic is really going to end in try this or that recording, then I don't see any reason why these posts shouldn't be merged with the previous thread.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1044.0.html

Oh, btw, I do not consider BWV 1080 as the Emperor's new clothes.
Though being a fool, and certainly not recognizing each and every element of mr. Bach's genius, I just learned to listen to it and thoroughly enjoy it!

For the rest, as has been suggested before: try to read the score, if possible. Or begin with learning to read musical notation. I would not be surprised if this really helps in this particular case, especially with the aid of some articles and books that have been written about the piece.

Antoine Marchand

#130
Contrapunctus IX/ Contrapunctus I-VIII/ Contrapunctus XIIa (conclusion), from The Art of Fugue, BWV 1080 - Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin:

http://www.wgbh.org/programs/-803/episodes/-25390



Marc

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 26, 2011, 07:59:04 AM
Contrapunctus IX/ Contrapunctus I-VIII/ Contrapunctus XIIa (conclusion), from The Art of Fugue, BWV 1080 - Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin:

http://www.wgbh.org/programs/-803/episodes/-25390
[....]

Nice link! :)

Had this Berliner KdF issue in me hands more than once during the last month or so, and decided not to buy it for the moment ... but it will be somewhere in the back on my head, I'm sure.

Next week, I hope, two 'new' Kdf's will arrive at da house: Gerd Zacher and Louis Thiry, the latter on the Silbermann/Kern organ of the Strasbourgh cathedral.

premont

Quote from: Marc on March 26, 2011, 07:45:10 AM
Don't wanna ruin this thread, and obviously Marvin's questions are valid, but if this topic is really going to end in try this or that recording, then I don't see any reason why these posts shouldn't be merged with the previous thread.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1044.0.html

I never saw the point of two threads, and if Que merges them, I shall not complain.

Quote from: Marc
For the rest, as has been suggested before: try to read the score, if possible. Or begin with learning to read musical notation. I would not be surprised if this really helps in this particular case, especially with the aid of some articles and books that have been written about the piece.

IMO - as I have written elsewhere - a beginner without experience in score reading and musical forms should rather approach the AoF with open ears and mind, and forget about theory. Love arises from repeated listening and ability to recognize the music as such. This is true of the AoF as well as all other music.
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Marc

Oh, I also found a free pdf-file of the score:

http://www.free-scores.com/download-sheet-music.php?pdf=151

This text was added:
For an unknown reason, the ZIP file will be corrupted if you are using Internet Explorer(IE). The file is working properly if you use Chrome, Firefox or Safari browser. The file will be converted in a uncompressed version as soon as possible!

Using IE myself, I downloaded and unzipped it nevertheless without any problems!

Marc

Quote from: aulos on March 26, 2011, 08:15:34 AM
I never saw the point of two threads, and if Que merges them, I shall not complain.

IMO - as I have written elsewhere - a beginner without experience in score reading and musical forms should rather approach the AoF with open ears and mind, and forget about theory. Love arises from repeated listening and ability to recognize the music as such. This is true of the AoF as well as all other music.

Agreed. But in fact that was already my advice in the original thread, which apparently did not respond to Marvin's wishes. That's why I offered him a more challenging choice .... the same choice that was already offered by other members btw.

To make things more complicated, I just posted a link to the score in the original thread. ;D

Que, let's merge and mingle! :-*

premont

#135
Quote from: Marc on March 26, 2011, 08:14:54 AM

Louis Thiry, the latter on the Silbermann/Kern organ of the Strasbourgh cathedral.

No, not the cathedral, but léglise de Saint-Thomas de Strassbourg, which is not the cathedral
The cathedral is called léglise de Notre Dame

see link:

http://www.google.dk/#hl=da&source=hp&biw=976&bih=757&q=l%C3%A9glise+de+saint+thomas+strassbourg&btnG=Google-s%C3%B8gning&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=l%C3%A9glise+de+saint+thomas+strassbourg&rlz=1R2GGLL_da&fp=758f715784bed336
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Scarpia

Quote from: aulos on March 26, 2011, 08:15:34 AM
IMO - as I have written elsewhere - a beginner without experience in score reading and musical forms should rather approach the AoF with open ears and mind, and forget about theory. Love arises from repeated listening and ability to recognize the music as such. This is true of the AoF as well as all other music.

I was merely relaying my own experience, that when listening to contrapuntal music on an instrument like a harpsichord, which does not provide explicit cues that indicate which is voice number 1, voice number 2, voice number 3, voice number 4, having the score in front of me can give that extra bit of information to recognize which voice is which, etc.   I got into this habit because my first recording of the piece (on organ) was an LP edition which came with a score (Tachezi on Telefunken).  I found it rewarding despite the fact that I do not have the training to properly read or analyze a score. 

Following the score is not at all inconsistent, in my experience, with having "open ears and mind."  An refreshing alternative, which has been mentioned, is to listen to a performance in which the voices are played by individual melody instruments, which can make the identity of the voices self-evident.


Marc

Quote from: aulos on March 26, 2011, 08:34:43 AM
No, not the cathedral, but léglise de Saint-Thomas de Strassbourg, which is not the cathedral

see link:

http://www.google.dk/#hl=da&source=hp&biw=976&bih=757&q=l%C3%A9glise+de+saint+thomas+strassbourg&btnG=Google-s%C3%B8gning&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=l%C3%A9glise+de+saint+thomas+strassbourg&rlz=1R2GGLL_da&fp=758f715784bed336

Stimmt.

Not this one:



(Andreas Silbermann, well, errr, inspired by)

but this one:



(Johann Andreas Silbermann)

In both cases, Alfred Kern was responsible for the (re)building respectively restoration.

premont

Quote from: Il Barone Scarpia on March 26, 2011, 08:43:19 AM
I was merely relaying my own experience, that when listening to contrapuntal music on an instrument like a harpsichord, which does not provide explicit cues that indicate which is voice number 1, voice number 2, voice number 3, voice number 4, having the score in front of me can give that extra bit of information to recognize which voice is which, etc.   I got into this habit because my first recording of the piece (on organ) was an LP edition which came with a score (Tachezi on Telefunken).  I found it rewarding despite the fact that I do not have the training to properly read or analyze a score.

And I was referring to my own experience, which is that score reading supports the formal analysis of the work, but this attitude did initially prevent me from taking in the expressive qualities of the music. Only later when I had listened to the work a lot of times without any thought of the score, and had experienced the expressive qualities to the full, did I succed in listening to it with my brain and my emotional part at the same time, so to say to listen with both halves of the brain simultaneously.

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premont

Quote from: Marc on February 14, 1974, 02:14:21 PM
Que, let's merge and mingle! :-*

Yes please Que, if you would be so kind  :-*
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