The Art of Fugue

Started by The Mad Hatter, May 23, 2007, 12:37:26 AM

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Selig

Quote from: (: premont :) on January 13, 2021, 03:25:40 PM
Because he didn't consider the piece as something which was intended to be part of AoF. He is certainly not alone with this view.

Even if I couldn't argue the point, I feel intuitively like this is true now, especially after hearing Samuel Kummer. It sounds more akin to something like the St. Anne fugue than to any of the other fugues in the AoF, and perfect for organ.

BTW I have heard Gösta Funck now since his recording was relisted on his website, uninspiring yes but still enjoyable: keep in mind I am still in a honeymoon phase with historical instruments :).  In general I think that overly emotional is worse than mechanical...

premont

#481
Quote from: Selig on July 31, 2021, 07:04:56 PM
Even if I couldn't argue the point, I feel intuitively like this is true now, especially after hearing Samuel Kummer. It sounds more akin to something like the St. Anne fugue than to any of the other fugues in the AoF, and perfect for organ.

Yes, precisely. Perfect for organ with pedal, in contrast to the other contrapuncti of AoF.

Quote from: Selig on July 31, 2021, 07:04:56 PM
BTW I have heard Gösta Funck now since his recording was relisted on his website, uninspiring yes but still enjoyable: keep in mind I am still in a honeymoon phase with historical instruments :).  In general I think that overly emotional is worse than mechanical...

I tend to avoid both. I could not find Funck, I'm "afraid" I have culled it.

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Mandryka

#482


Well, I can't say I've ever heard a more attractive version for string ensemble than this. The members of the Unamas Fugue Quintet all come out of Tokyo. A string quartet beefed up with a double bass. The sound engineering is state of the art. The interpretation is sweet --  fluid and consonant. Shame they omit the canons.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

Quote from: Mandryka on December 17, 2021, 06:48:31 AM


Well, I can't say I've ever heard a more attractive version for string ensemble than this. The members of the Unamas Fugue Quintet all come out of Tokyo. A string quartet beefed up with a double bass. The sound engineering is state of the art. The interpretation is sweet --  fluid and consonant. Shame they omit the canons.

Thank you for the interesting post. I will look for the recording.

milk

I find this engrossing so far. 

San Antone

Quote from: Mandryka on February 01, 2021, 10:03:46 AM
George E Lewis in his paper  "Too Many Notes" (Leonardo Music Journal 10) says that the art critic Robert L Douglas

Reading it I couldn't help be reminded of discussions we've had here about the equality of voices in some of Bach's music. This is multi-dominance. Or at least it could be in an instrumental setting, or with a suitably imaginative organist on some of those wonderful colourful Bachian organs, Naumburg  maybe.

And it explains why your average European/white american classical music listener finds, for example, Rubsam in his latest incarnation "noise," "frenzy" or perhaps "chaos" I remember San Atone said he sounded drunk.

San Antone -- you're too white, man. Or rather, you were back when you said that!

Hah! Just saw this.  I am not sure what this person's description of supposed African aesthetic traits has to do with playing Bach, but I guess you thought it does. 

Mandryka

#486
Listening to Asperen again this morning, and I want to ask the people here a question - my line of thinking which leads to this question should be clear. Is there any fugal harpsichord music by Francois Couperin?

I appreciate Asperen's AoF, I don't understand the objections in principle to it (as opposed to in taste)
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

milk


Just released today I think.

premont

Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2022, 12:51:42 AM
Listening to Asperen again this morning, and I want to ask the people here a question - my line of thinking which leads to this question should be clear. Is there any fugal harpsichord music by Francois Couperin?

If there is I haven't heard it.

Quote from: Mandryka
I appreciate Asperen's AoF, I don't understand the objections in principle to it (as opposed to in taste)

He plays the work in French style. This is very much a question of taste (French taste vs German taste). I'm not adverse to a some well chosen ornaments in the AoF, but he overstates the point to the unbearable - like Koopman (even if not particularly in French style) in some of his Bach playing.
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Mandryka

Quote from: (: premont :) on February 25, 2022, 05:17:48 AM
If there is I haven't heard it.

He plays the work in French style. This is very much a question of taste (French taste vs German taste). I'm not adverse to a some well chosen ornaments in the AoF, but he overstates the point to the unbearable - like Koopman (even if not particularly in French style) in some of his Bach playing.

Well that's taste rather than principle, I don't find it unbearable.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

milk

Quote from: (: premont :) on February 25, 2022, 05:17:48 AM
If there is I haven't heard it.

He plays the work in French style. This is very much a question of taste (French taste vs German taste). I'm not adverse to a some well chosen ornaments in the AoF, but he overstates the point to the unbearable - like Koopman (even if not particularly in French style) in some of his Bach playing.
I was enjoying it until this was pointed out. Now it just seems unnatural when I listen - like every time he uses an ornament I'm taken out of the music.

Elk

Quote from: Selig on January 13, 2021, 02:08:02 PM
Does anyone know whether Leonhardt's notes for his 2nd AoF (DHM) have been translated into English? That is now my preferred version, but I think it's a pity we don't get to hear him play the fuga a 3 soggetti. Maybe he explains his reasoning for this?

There is translation with the 1972 ProArte re-release which I can send to anyone who wishes it if I am sent a PM since I am having trouble loading it on this thread.
Steve

premont

Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2022, 06:23:45 AM
Well that's taste rather than principle, I don't find it unbearable.

The objections in principle build upon the fact that the work isn't composed in French style except Cpt VI, which has the heading "in French style" - a superfluous heading, if the whole work is intended to be played in French style, and furthermore if this was the case, this heading should be placed on the title page like the heading for the Italian concerto.
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premont

Quote from: milk on February 26, 2022, 03:35:46 AM
I was enjoying it until this was pointed out. Now it just seems unnatural when I listen - like every time he uses an ornament I'm taken out of the music.

I am sorry if I have spoilt the recording for you, but discussing music we can't avoid to write what we think of it.
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Selig

Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2022, 12:51:42 AM
I appreciate Asperen's AoF, I don't understand the objections in principle to it (as opposed to in taste)

Some of the fugues work better than others I think. I like the early ones a lot, and the canons.

I don't mind that it's "unnatural" if by this we mean that it's not spontaneous. Koopman's ornamentation is more spontanteous I suppose, but also more distracting to me, I couldn't finish his recording. I don't find Asperen's ornamentation distracting because it's so integrated, because he applies it so thoroughly and uncompromisingly.

Mandryka

#495
Quote from: (: premont :) on February 26, 2022, 05:07:46 AM
The objections in principle build upon the fact that the work isn't composed in French style except Cpt VI, which has the heading "in French style" - a superfluous heading, if the whole work is intended to be played in French style, and furthermore if this was the case, this heading should be placed on the title page like the heading for the Italian concerto.

In the French style is a reference to the rhythm -- it doesn't imply anything about ornamentation. And of course the absence of notated ornamentation in 18th century music doesn't suggest that ornamentation wasn't envisaged by the composer. Booth mentions (without any details unfortunately) that there are 18th recordings of Handel's music (presumably discs for mechanical instruments) which are very decorated. The chapter on the single note ornament is interesting.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

premont

Quote from: Mandryka on February 26, 2022, 07:20:11 AM
In the French style is a reference to the rhythm -- it doesn't imply anything about ornamentation. And of course the absence of notated ornamentation in 18th century music doesn't suggest that ornamentation wasn't envisaged by the composer. Booth mentions (without any details unfortunately) that there are 18th recordings of Handel's music (presumably discs for mechanical instruments) which are very decorated. The chapter on the single note ornament is interesting.

In the French style refers both to the style of the composition and how to play it. In Cpt. VI it refers first and foremost to the the French ouverture rhythm of that piece and how to execute it (kind of double-dotting I suppose), but elsewhere (and not of interest as to the AoF because it isn't written in the French style and therefore shouldn't be played in the French style) it may refer to the execution of and use of ornamentation (agréments) in pieces written in French style in the widest sense (eg. pieces by F Couperin and Bach's English suites) as exemplified in D'Angelbert's list of agréments.
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Mandryka

#497
As far as I know, the only place where he uses this phrase In Stylo Francese is cpt 6.  BWV 831 is nach Französischer Art. And the ornament table was never published by J S Bach. My suggestion is that there's no reason to think that 18th century German composers wouldn't have expected some performers to embellish their keyboard music in the French way. I mean why not? That's the sort of choice that performers can make for themselves. Some will, some won't.

D'Anglebert did leave a fugue, I'm listening to Frisch play it now, full of ornaments!

(I think this was Koopman's position - that using ornamentation to draw the listener's attention to a phrase or just to decorate it is as valid a way of playing Bach as Leonhardt's rhythmic rubato.)
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Selig

Quote from: milk on February 25, 2022, 02:29:25 AM

Just released today I think.

Very satisfying first listen on Spotify this morning.

Sounds like a French harpsichord to me. Am I right about that?  :)

milk

Quote from: Selig on February 27, 2022, 03:43:41 AM
Very satisfying first listen on Spotify this morning.

Sounds like a French harpsichord to me. Am I right about that?  :)
Yes, it says a recently restored Taskin harpsichord.