The Art of Fugue

[prémont]

The liner notes to Elizabeth Farr's recording on Naxos argue that Bach liked the lautenwerk so well he had at least two built for him, and wrote the lute works for the lautenwerk, not the lute.  I must admit I didn't like the instrument Farr herself used  in that recording.

As for fortepiano, Wikipedia yielded this link via the Wayback machine
https://web.archive.org/web/20130613105200/http://www.jc-neupert.de/e/instr_2/silber_ham.htm

But we have no direct statements from Bach about either of these instruments. And particularly the "complete approval" of Silbermann's fortepianos might be made for commercial reasons, because Bach acted as agent for Silbermann's instruments.

[Wakefield]

Quote Karosi:
The present recording presents all commonly available keyboard instruments to Bach (except the Lautenwerk and the fortepiano which he did not particularly like).

And this is of course nonsense. We know nothing about Bach's opinion of these two instruments.

And several hints indicate he loved the lautenwerk:

J.S. Bach's connection with and interest in the Lautenwerk was considerable. He clearly liked the combination of softness with strength which these instruments are capable of producing, and he is known to have drawn up his own specifications for such an instrument to be built for him by Hildebrandt. In an annotation to Adlung's Musica mechanica organoedi, Johann Friedrich Agricola described a Lautenwerk that belonged to Bach:

The editor of these notes remembers having seen and heard a "Lautenclavicymbel" in Leipzig in about 1740, designed by Mr. Johann Sebastian Bach and made by Mr. Zacharias Hildebrand, which was smaller in size than a normal harpsichord but in all other respects similar. It had two choirs of gut strings, and a so-called little octave of brass strings. It is true that in its normal setting (that is, when only one stop was drawn) it sounded more like a theorbo than a lute. But if one drew the lute-stop (such as is found on a harpsichord) together with the cornet stop [?the 4' brass stop undamped], one could almost deceive professional lutenists."

The inventory of Bach's possessions at the time of his death reveals that he owned two such instruments, as well as three harpsichords, one lute and a spinet.

http://www.baroquemusic.org/barluthp.html

[prémont]

And several hints indicate he loved the lautenwerk:

http://www.baroquemusic.org/barluthp.html

Yes, I think you are right, but we only have indirect "proof". That he got some lautenwerk's built for him, does not prove, that he was satisfied with the results.

However my reaction was caused by Karosi's claim, that Bach might not like the instrument that much. This is certainly an unfounded claim.

[kishnevi]

But we have no direct statements from Bach about either of these instruments. And particularly the "complete approval" of Silbermann's fortepianos might be made for commercial reasons, because Bach acted as agent for Silbermann's instruments.

I think he would not be an agent if he disliked the fortepiano.

(But now I am bit confused. Was Silbermann the piano builder the same as Silbermann the organ builder?)

[bioluminescentsquid]

I think he would not be an agent if he disliked the fortepiano.

(But now I am bit confused. Was Silbermann the piano builder the same as Silbermann the organ builder?)

Yes. Gottfried Silbermann; a harpsichord and a clavichord supposedly from his hand also exist.

Bach and Silbermann had a love-hate relationship; Bach praised his instruments (and played at the inaugurations of several of his instruments e.g. Dresden Frauenkirche) but criticized him mainly for his temperament and possibly his relative tonal conservatism when compared to e.g. Trost, Hildebrandt etc. (Silbermann mass-produced many organs with identical stoplists, while the others were more apt to experiment with different reeds, strings, etc.)

For lautenwerk recordings try out Rubsam's recordings. Mandryka introduced them and I've gotten addicted.
https://www.wolfgangrubsam.com/the-lautenwerk

[prémont]

I think he would not be an agent if he disliked the fortepiano.

Probably not, but it is hard to know for sure (Bach really needed the possible income from his agency), and no definite conclusions can be made.

(But now I am bit confused. Was Silbermann the piano builder the same as Silbermann the organ builder?)

Gottfried Silbermann as stated by bioluminescentsquid above, - not to confuse with his brother the organ builder Andreas Silbermann and Andreas' son the organ builder Johan Andreas.

[Mandryka]

Just coming at this question of piano from a slightly different direction.

If you listen to Enrico Baiano playing Scarlatti K481, I think the sustain of the piano in that sonata sounds so good that it's not crazy to imagine that DS intended a piano effect. Same for the dynamics in Baiano's k 426. In Bach, I can't ever remember hearing a piano performance which is so convincing, maybe I'm forgetting something. The obvious thing to think about would be the Ricercar à 3 from Opfer, but I wouldn't say that piano performances of that are so convincing, I mean their OK but  they don't make me think that the music has finally found its natural home again.

[Mandryka]

In Marie Claire Alain's second recording she wrote an essay praising a book called L'art de la fugue de J.S. Bach by Jacques Chailley (Alfonse Leduc, Paris, 1971) The book includes a discographical study by Christine Prost, which contains these perceptive notes on Walcha. My rapid and unrevised, unchecked translation.

The organ at St Laurent Alkmaar has the clear and intense sounds of a baroque instrument. H Walcha uses it with economy, which gives his interpretation a perfect lucidity of line, in  a beautiful atmosphere which is both introspective and paired down to the essentials. The whole thing is deliberately austere, but sensitive.  These parts stand out for different reasons

cpt 8  -- dazzling, superb
cpt 20 -- the registration, which is different for each section, allows us to grasp the architecture
cpt 17 -- treated with finesse and lightness
the  cannons -- the varied colours give them a sustained interest
the final fugue, of which the sumptuousness seems all the more dazzling because the conception of the whole is so discrete. It finishes by a chord in D minor placed in the first beat of the bar left incomplete by Bach, and replacing it

[milk]

Can I get some reactions to Rubsam's AOF?

[Mandryka]

I think the harpsichord in art of fugue isn't as well recorded as it is for Naxos. Rubsam's own recording is still very well engineered though, especially given that he did it himself in his own studio.

[prémont]

I think the harpsichord in art of fugue isn't as well recorded as it is for Naxos. Rubsam's own recording is still very well engineered though, especially given that he did it himself in his own studio.

I agree with this. Rübsam must have improved his enginering during the last years.


@MILK: Concerning his interpretation of the AoF I find it - not surprising - rather similar to the WTC.

[milk]

I agree with this. Rübsam must have improved his enginering during the last years.


@MILK: Concerning his interpretation of the AoF I find it - not surprising - rather similar to the WTC.

I like the new AOF a lot. I might also pick up the Pachelbel. For some reason, I have more problems with the Goldberg variations, though they are growing on me in spots. I imagine if one likes his Bach lautenwerk recordings, one will like the pachelbel too. And the Bohm.

[Mandryka]

Extraordinary symphonic Thuringian organ here, at Gräfenroda made by Johann Anton Weise in 1736, under the direction of Johann Peter Kellner.  This recording had me jumping out of my seat a few times, the sounds are so unexpected, the flutes!!!!!! The bells!!!! I never knew organ music could sound like this.

[milk]

Extraordinary symphonic Thuringian organ here, at Gräfenroda made by Johann Anton Weise in 1736, under the direction of Johann Peter Kellner.  This recording had me jumping out of my seat a few times, the sounds are so unexpected, the flutes!!!!!! The bells!!!! I never knew organ music could sound like this.

Thanks. I had to get this based on the recommendation. Very rewarding listen.

[Mandryka]

Thanks. I had to get this based on the recommendation. Very rewarding listen.

You may also like Messori playing the canonic variations at Waltershausen

https://youtube.com/v/3BTGGkHKF6Q

[bwv 1080]

Can I get some reactions to Rubsam's AOF?

Only have vol I Contrapunctus 1-11,  vol 2 is not on Amazon yet

Just got a slew of his recordings from reading these threads,  so have not been listening long, but its the same stile brise playing and moderate tempos as in his Goldberg recordings.  Works really well for separating the voices.  Really looking forward to vol 2 and hearing the canons

[Mandryka]

Michael Finnissy's completion   continuation of cpt19

https://www.youtube.com/v/8lhNMFbkXS0

[milk]

I have a hard time finding one measly glowing recommendation of a modern piano version of AOF on any page of this thread. I'm trying out Janssen tonight. I like how he avoids dynamics but he does seem a bit dry, i.e. not doing much with articulation/rubato. However, I'm sensing there's something to be got from it too. There's something in it.

[Ras]

I have a hard time finding one measly glowing recommendation of a modern piano version of AOF on any page of this thread. I'm trying out Janssen tonight. I like how he avoids dynamics but he does seem a bit dry, i.e. not doing much with articulation/rubato. However, I'm sensing there's something to be got from it too. There's something in it.

My favorites are G. Sokolov on Opus 111/Naive and Konstantin Lifschitz on Orfeo.
Sokolov is heavy, deep, emotional.
Lifschitz is elegant and ligth.

I'm still hoping Andras Schiff will record it someday...

[asin]B0719F3HLT[/asin]

[asin]B0045FGFZA[/asin]

[milk]

My favorites are G. Sokolov on Opus 111/Naive and Konstantin Lifschitz on Orfeo.
Sokolov is heavy, deep, emotional.
Lifschitz is elegant and ligth.

I'm still hoping Andras Schiff will record it someday...

[asin]B0719F3HLT[/asin]

[asin]B0045FGFZA[/asin]

I'm just getting into Schiff and I'd love to hear him do AOF. Sokolov is very heavy on dynamics I think. Too much so for me maybe.