Author Topic: The Art of Fugue  (Read 103107 times)

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Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #380 on: November 23, 2018, 05:37:09 AM »
I’m listening to Van Asperen on headphones this morning and I also had time to listen to 3 tracks from Leonhardt’s 50s recording. I don’t find Leonhardt’s instrument to be very pleasing so I’d also like to know which recording’s most take on Leonhardt’s approach (Hill, Rieger Vartolo, etc.). The more I listen to this as the years go by, hopefully, the more I am able to identify the approach and good points of each artist. In fact, it’d be interesting to see what tagline people are willing to give their top 5 favorite recordings.
I do see the point that’s been made about Leonhardt, i.e. that he’s more pacific and that it fits together.
However, I find Van Asperen thoroughly enjoyable, ecstatic, dramatic - and I’m not, never, bored by what’s going on. I get used to his ornamentation; maybe it’s something like what it would have sounded like if Louis Marchand had gotten ahold of this music. But, I don’t find it to be so extreme anyway. I think it’s a great piece of art - Van Asperen’s recording. I’m looking forward to relistening to some of the other great ones like Hill and Vartolo soon. But I was very stimulated by Van Asperen. Though I don’t understand the musicology like others here, I highly recommend Van Asperen - though not as one’s only recording of course.

Well Premont says that he once read something by Rübsam saying that his first organ AoF (for Philips) was inspired by Leonhardt. The one which seems to me extremely calm, like Leonhardt, is Stefan Müller and Johan Sonnleitner - that’s not a recommendation by the way, so far I find it a bit uninspiring, but it could be just me.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 05:39:30 AM by Mandryka »
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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #381 on: November 24, 2018, 12:54:08 AM »
Well Premont says that he once read something by Rübsam saying that his first organ AoF (for Philips) was inspired by Leonhardt. The one which seems to me extremely calm, like Leonhardt, is Stefan Müller and Johan Sonnleitner - that’s not a recommendation by the way, so far I find it a bit uninspiring, but it could be just me.

Rübsam's adressed his words to his entire Bach cycle, not the AoF in particular. He thought of Leonhardt's informed articulation and rhetoric style (i.e. the Leonhardt of the 1960 and on). The comparison between Leonhardt and Müller/Sonnleitner seems to me to apply better to Leonhardt's first AoF (1952), at least concerning the general character of the interpretation (the calmness). But of course Müller/Sonnleitner plays much more informed than Leonhardt in 1952. The Müller/Sonnleitner AoF is very introvert and subtle in expression and may need a number of listenings for better appreciation.

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #382 on: November 24, 2018, 01:07:38 AM »
The idea of "hidden homophony" comes from Leonhardt. It's a big idea in his book and I don't understand it. He argues that it's a major element of Bach's keyboard style, something that distinguishes his keyboard music from his ensemble music. As far as I can see, he doesn't draw a connection to French music.  If anyone wants I'll upload the relevant parts, in French.

Is this the old discussion (older than Leonhardt) about which came first, harmony or voice leading? Long time ago I saw some claim, that the most important in Bach's music is the harmony, and that the counterpoint is just a fill out. This is of course a senseless point of view, because in all good contrapuntal music including Bach's these two elements (harmony and voice leading) are so intimately connected as to be inseparable. Also for that reason I think a special relation between the AoF and French lute music is senseless.

I do not read French equally well as English and German, but would nonetheless like to se what Leonhardt writes.
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #383 on: November 24, 2018, 02:18:03 AM »
In fact I listened again to some Müller/Sonnleitner  after making that post and I'm sure you're right.

I'm on my way to Avignon now to hear Ensemble Musica Nova, I'll scan the relevant parts of Leonhardt's monograph tomorrow or Monday.
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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #384 on: November 24, 2018, 02:34:36 AM »
I'm on my way to Avignon now to hear Ensemble Musica Nova, I'll scan the relevant parts of Leonhardt's monograph tomorrow or Monday.

Thanks, have a nice trip. Avignon (including surroundings) is a wonderful place.
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Offline milk

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Re: The Art of Fugue on piano
« Reply #385 on: November 24, 2018, 04:55:11 AM »
My favorites are G. Sokolov on Opus 111/Naive and Konstantin Lifschitz on Orfeo.
Sokolov is heavy, deep, emotional.
Lifschitz is elegant and ligth.
 
 I'm still hoping Andras Schiff will record it someday...




Konstantin Lifschitz has some interesting moments with AOF. I doubt everyone around here will feel this way. He doesn't rely on dynamics too much, not as much as others on piano at least, which is a plus for me. I have a feeling that for some people his phrasing might be unnatural or too shallow, or be found wanting in some way. I'm just trying to pick up on how people listen to and view and view AOF. Whereas I feel very easy in responding to WTC intuitively, I feel a distance from AOF and less certain about it's meaning and interpretation. It's something attractive about it, the doubt about it and the mystery of it. And on piano, it seems trickier; my feeling about it is shifting as time goes on. Anyway, though I'm not sure yet if Lifschitz has the real insight, I do find him worth listening to.

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #386 on: November 24, 2018, 09:53:56 AM »
In fact I listened again to some Müller/Sonnleitner  after making that post and I'm sure you're right.

I'm on my way to Avignon now to hear Ensemble Musica Nova, I'll scan the relevant parts of Leonhardt's monograph tomorrow or Monday.

 Have a nice trip. ;)

Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #387 on: November 24, 2018, 09:58:59 PM »
Have a nice trip. ;)

In fact the trip was difficult. It took me less time to get from my front door to Marseille than it took to get from Marseille to Avignon.

The location for the concert was amazing,  the popes' palace was shrouded in mist. The perspectives as you walk through the internal courtyard are astonishing, parts of Oxford also have impressive vistas and perspectives, but not as impressive as this! You're very conscious of the sheer quantity and weight, power and force,  of gothic stone.

EMN are seven singers and an organist, they did about 10 Machaut motets and the Missa Barcelona.

I thought that the virtuoso element of the motets, that the motetus and triplum can keep together in such complicated music, is a major part of the listening pleasure.

They sang a couple of motets two on a part, and it worked very well indeed. Part of the pleasure of these pieces is the variety of ways if singing them - with/ without instrument, different voice types etc.

I decided I really don't care for organ transcriptions of Machaut motets, but I do like the organ in the tenor  either alone or supporting the voice.

The missa Barcelona had a really fabulous Credo, a great Agnus Dei and a very fine Kyrie.

They sang the Machaut Ita Missa Est as encore,  and I thought to myself how expressive, how joyful, this bit of music is.

Why doesn't my Hi fi sound as good as live music? I was really angry that they sounded so good live!  Should I buy supertweeters?



« Last Edit: November 24, 2018, 10:05:24 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline San Antone

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #388 on: November 24, 2018, 10:51:27 PM »
In fact the trip was difficult. It took me less time to get from my front door to Marseille than it took to get from Marseille to Avignon.

The location for the concert was amazing,  the popes' palace was shrouded in mist. The perspectives as you walk through the internal courtyard are astonishing, parts of Oxford also have impressive vistas and perspectives, but not as impressive as this! You're very conscious of the sheer quantity and weight, power and force,  of gothic stone.

EMN are seven singers and an organist, they did about 10 Machaut motets and the Missa Barcelona.

I thought that the virtuoso element of the motets, that the motetus and triplum can keep together in such complicated music, is a major part of the listening pleasure.

They sang a couple of motets two on a part, and it worked very well indeed. Part of the pleasure of these pieces is the variety of ways if singing them - with/ without instrument, different voice types etc.

I decided I really don't care for organ transcriptions of Machaut motets, but I do like the organ in the tenor  either alone or supporting the voice.

The missa Barcelona had a really fabulous Credo, a great Agnus Dei and a very fine Kyrie.

They sang the Machaut Ita Missa Est as encore,  and I thought to myself how expressive, how joyful, this bit of music is.

Why doesn't my Hi fi sound as good as live music? I was really angry that they sounded so good live!  Should I buy supertweeters?

Despite your traveling difficulties it sounds like a wonderful listening experience.

Offline milk

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #389 on: November 25, 2018, 12:19:06 AM »
In fact the trip was difficult. It took me less time to get from my front door to Marseille than it took to get from Marseille to Avignon.

The location for the concert was amazing,  the popes' palace was shrouded in mist. The perspectives as you walk through the internal courtyard are astonishing, parts of Oxford also have impressive vistas and perspectives, but not as impressive as this! You're very conscious of the sheer quantity and weight, power and force,  of gothic stone.

EMN are seven singers and an organist, they did about 10 Machaut motets and the Missa Barcelona.

I thought that the virtuoso element of the motets, that the motetus and triplum can keep together in such complicated music, is a major part of the listening pleasure.

They sang a couple of motets two on a part, and it worked very well indeed. Part of the pleasure of these pieces is the variety of ways if singing them - with/ without instrument, different voice types etc.

I decided I really don't care for organ transcriptions of Machaut motets, but I do like the organ in the tenor  either alone or supporting the voice.

The missa Barcelona had a really fabulous Credo, a great Agnus Dei and a very fine Kyrie.

They sang the Machaut Ita Missa Est as encore,  and I thought to myself how expressive, how joyful, this bit of music is.

Why doesn't my Hi fi sound as good as live music? I was really angry that they sounded so good live!  Should I buy supertweeters?
Sounds wonderful. I wish I could visit there some day.

Offline milk

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #390 on: November 25, 2018, 12:30:19 AM »
Well this seems peaceful to my ears. How does Tilney in his approach compare to his teacher, Leonhardt? It's interesting to have the fugues broken up by other contrapuntal music. Tilney's deliberate/purposeful playing style and the idiosyncratic instrument tie it all together. I could imagine being enthralled if this were an evening in Avignon.

Traverso

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #391 on: November 25, 2018, 01:56:24 AM »
In fact the trip was difficult. It took me less time to get from my front door to Marseille than it took to get from Marseille to Avignon.

The location for the concert was amazing,  the popes' palace was shrouded in mist. The perspectives as you walk through the internal courtyard are astonishing, parts of Oxford also have impressive vistas and perspectives, but not as impressive as this! You're very conscious of the sheer quantity and weight, power and force,  of gothic stone.

EMN are seven singers and an organist, they did about 10 Machaut motets and the Missa Barcelona.

I thought that the virtuoso element of the motets, that the motetus and triplum can keep together in such complicated music, is a major part of the listening pleasure.

They sang a couple of motets two on a part, and it worked very well indeed. Part of the pleasure of these pieces is the variety of ways if singing them - with/ without instrument, different voice types etc.

I decided I really don't care for organ transcriptions of Machaut motets, but I do like the organ in the tenor  either alone or supporting the voice.

The missa Barcelona had a really fabulous Credo, a great Agnus Dei and a very fine Kyrie.

They sang the Machaut Ita Missa Est as encore,  and I thought to myself how expressive, how joyful, this bit of music is.

Why doesn't my Hi fi sound as good as live music? I was really angry that they sounded so good live!  Should I buy supertweeters?

All in all you had a wonderful experience.In the coming days I'm alsof able tot listen to these motets.with the same ensemble..

Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #392 on: November 26, 2018, 04:32:10 AM »
The link below leads to Sectrion V of Leonhardt's AoF Monograph, which deals with hidden monophony. I thought I'd leave it here in case anyone else was interested in trying to understand it. It's in French

https://drive.google.com/open?id=11lRER9dHVxsam25gDLHAlRtEqSBDwYma
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 04:52:27 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Marc

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #393 on: November 26, 2018, 04:34:49 AM »
The link below leads to Sectrion V of Leonhardt's AoF Monograph, which deals with hidden monophony. I thought I'd leave it hear in case anyone else was interested in trying to understand it. It's in French

https://drive.google.com/open?id=11lRER9dHVxsam25gDLHAlRtEqSBDwYma

Ah, bon.
Merci beaucoup, monsieur vicomte Howard de Mandryka!
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #394 on: November 26, 2018, 05:27:51 AM »
Well this seems peaceful to my ears. How does Tilney in his approach compare to his teacher, Leonhardt? It's interesting to have the fugues broken up by other contrapuntal music. Tilney's deliberate/purposeful playing style and the idiosyncratic instrument tie it all together. I could imagine being enthralled if this were an evening in Avignon.

I think this is a valuable performance: serious and subtle, enriched by its concept of juxtaposing Bach with his influences, beautifully recorded on a magnificent Italian harpsichord. It’s the sort of CD which repays the attention you give it on each fresh encounter.

However I don’t think that comparison with Leonhardt is helpful here, and it doesn’t do Tilney any favours. It shows how infinitely more expressive, how infinitely more humane, Leonhardt was in AoF, and indeed in Frescobaldi, Louis Couperin etc.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 05:52:32 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline milk

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #395 on: November 26, 2018, 02:45:28 PM »
I think this is a valuable performance: serious and subtle, enriched by its concept of juxtaposing Bach with his influences, beautifully recorded on a magnificent Italian harpsichord. It’s the sort of CD which repays the attention you give it on each fresh encounter.

However I don’t think that comparison with Leonhardt is helpful here, and it doesn’t do Tilney any favours. It shows how infinitely more expressive, how infinitely more humane, Leonhardt was in AoF, and indeed in Frescobaldi, Louis Couperin etc.
Tilley seems serious and understated in everything he does. His Mozart is shockingly stolid. I always think rustic. It’s enjoyable but not transcendent like Leonhardt.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #396 on: November 26, 2018, 09:36:54 PM »
Tilley seems serious and understated in everything he does. His Mozart is shockingly stolid. I always think rustic. It’s enjoyable but not transcendent like Leonhardt.

It is true that Tilney’s manner is direct and literal, he doesn’t smooth over the shocks and contrasts in the music. And he doesn’t show his personality, he is the least narcissistic of keyboard players.

I love Colin Tilney’s music making. I love his way of sculpting ling lines of music, which he punctuates beautifully. I love his asceticism, the fact that he has eliminated from the music all forms of unnecessary embellishment.  And I love to hear his total mastery of his instruments, above all the Italian harpsichord, but also the clavichord.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 09:50:43 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline San Antone

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #397 on: December 13, 2018, 04:43:09 AM »
I am sure this recording has been mentioned here, but I have just discovered it and am very impressed:



I think alternating the ensemble with Dantone's harpsichord or organ is very successful.  Also, the ensemble offers a variety of instrumental combinations for their tracks.

I like it.

 :)

Offline Mandryka

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #398 on: December 13, 2018, 07:20:19 AM »
I am sure this recording has been mentioned here, but I have just discovered it and am very impressed:



I think alternating the ensemble with Dantone's harpsichord or organ is very successful.  Also, the ensemble offers a variety of instrumental combinations for their tracks.

I like it.

 :)

You should try his Musical Offering then.
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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #399 on: December 13, 2018, 08:42:07 AM »
You should try his Musical Offering then.

I suppose you mean this one:

Musical Offering, BWV 1079 [50:41]
Carlo Chiarappa
Accademia Bizantina
Carlo Chiarappa (Violin); Franco Andrini (Violin); Alessandro Temperi (Viola); Mauro Valli (Cello); Eva Katharina Dumig (Flute); Ottavio Dantone (Harpsichord)
WEA / Denon
Apr 1991
CD / TT: 50:41
Recorded at La chiesa di S. Angiolo Vico L'Abate.


Never-the-less ordered.
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