Any high school math teachers here?

[Chosen Barley]

Hi.  I have a teenager who did not finish school but who now wants to study math on his own, at home. (   Hey, I have learned to pick my battles.)

So we are looking for a math textbook & workbook.  I do not think he wants an online course.  He finds the Saxon method boring and apparently he is not the only one.  Can anyone here recommend something else suitable for a student learning on his own?  Has anyone heard of the Prentice Hall math courses?  Any opinions?

Thanks. 

[karlhenning]

You want jbuck!  Are you registered at CMG, too?  He can be found there, if there is no apt reply here.

[SonicMan46]

Hello ChosenBarley and welcome - I'm not sure 'why' you're posing this question in a classical music forum? 

But we do have some 'math' teachers, as Karl has suggested, but my query is 'what' is your child's purpose in studying math after quitting school?  I'm a physician and studied math in all four years of high school and also two semesters of calculus at the Univ of Michigan - I even considered math as a major; so, just wondering the reasoning here?  If your child wants to do 'something' w/ math (e.g. teacher), then 'home study' will likely be of no value - please provide some more information before any more definite advice can be given - 

[Chosen Barley]

Hello ChosenBarley and welcome - I'm not sure 'why' you're posing this question in a classical music forum?  :

Thank you for your welcome, Sonic!

Well, I thought that the Back Room/Diner section was open to discussion & questions on all topics of any kind, so I thought I would take my chances here.  I used to post on GMG about 5 years ago but I see all my (and I guess many others') posts got disappeared down the memory hole. 

My child wants to learn math again, starting where he left off, ie, pre-algebra.  He doesn't want to do it in school but to teach himself at home.  That is why I wondered if anyone here could recommend any selfstudy courses other than Saxon.  I would likely study along with him.  He wishes to study math (1) out of his own interest in the subject and (2) because he thinks he will likely  need it for some vocational training one fine day. 

[SonicMan46]

Well, I thought that the Back Room/Diner section was open to discussion & questions on all topics of any kind, so I thought I would take my chances here.  I used to post on GMG about 5 years ago but I see all my (and I guess many others') posts got disappeared down the memory hole. 

Well, the Diner is certainly for any 'non-classical music' topic - I contribute to many, if you've explored them - unfortunately, the 'old' forum had to be shut down, so your previous contributions are likely in 'cyber heaven' (as are many of mine) - 

My child wants to learn math again, starting where he left off, ie, pre-algebra.  He doesn't want to do it in school but to teach himself at home.  That is why I wondered if anyone here could recommend any selfstudy courses other than Saxon.  I would likely study along with him.  He wishes to study math (1) out of his own interest in the subject and (2) because he thinks he will likely  need it for some vocational training one fine day. 

Boy, this is a difficult situation & question - e.g. I took algebra as a freshman/sophomore in high school - so now I'm not even sure 'what' level of math education your child may have nor what his/her attributes may be in learning math?  You might want to provide some more information - e.g. age of child, current educational level, current job/occupation, future goals (since you mentioned 'vocational training' - what training?) - is this child of normal intelligence (not to be negative here please) or an educational problem?  Just not enough information - maybe some more specifics may be useful - hate to be a pain, but hard to give advice w/ so little information - Dave 

[Chosen Barley]

Hi.  I do  not know if my boy has a particular aptitude or not; he simply wants to pick up where he left off a couple of years ago.  His level of intelligence is average and he & I are just hunting for a math course starting with pre-Algebra.  He does not know what he wants to "do" re a career or postsecondary training just yet.  But if a teenager announces that he wants to study math at home, I ask no questions, I'll just do what I can to help out!  He is not employed & lives at home.  He was using the Saxon books for years but doesn't particularly like them and I found  that others are not over-enthusiastic either.  Of course, there's always exceptions.

So, I was wanting recommendations as to a math course.  It appears to me that all text- and workbooks are suitable for self teaching or teacher-led learning. 

Any recommendations will be gratefully received, and thank you for your interest & desire to help.  - Mrs. B.

[DavidW]

I don't teach math, I teach physics, but I do have my two cents to share...

Self study for high school math is a very bad idea.  No matter how smart the kid is, there will be times when he needs one on one help with a teacher.  That teen should either go back to school or take the classes that he wants at a local junior college.  Going it alone doesn't work, even online courses will not work that well.

[Chosen Barley]

I don't teach math, I teach physics, but I do have my two cents to share...

Self study for high school math is a very bad idea.  No matter how smart the kid is, there will be times when he needs one on one help with a teacher.  That teen should either go back to school or take the classes that he wants at a local junior college.  Going it alone doesn't work, even online courses will not work that well.

Hi, David.  I'm grateful for your input.  I do recall relatives of mine, quite some decades ago, out in the country, who had to take math by correspondence (it's called 'distance learning' nowadays) and they were able to complete it.  The standard, usual final exams (the provincial exams) were given & supervised at the closest school they could find.  Consultation with the teacher at the Dept of Education was done by mail, too, as they did not have a phone.  If there's a will, etc.!!!

I was surprised to hear you say that even an online course would not work that well.  In our case, we are not forcing our son to go to school if he does not want. 

Personally, I am not sure, if it was me, that I could do without a nice, smart teacher:  when I went to school, the teachers were mighty impatient & strict, and if you didn't 'get it' right away, they got ugly.  Somehow I learned algebra & trig, but it was largely thru my own efforts, done at home after school, using some ancient (from the 1920s & 30s) math textbooks that I found in our home.

Many thanks!

[Sarastro]

I teach physics

That makes a lot of sense now.

I agree with DavidW in his suggestion to go to college; though once on a math conference I heard that by statistics three consecutive bad math teachers screw a student up in math for his entire life. And in that respect the junior college is a great idea - at least a person may drop a class if he does not like/understand the teacher. It is great that the boy wants to study math, good luck!

[DavidW]

In our case, we are not forcing our son to go to school if he does not want.  

But you're not home schooling him either are you?  You're just telling him that it's acceptable to do nothing about his education.  In this day and age it's become more and more difficult to make any kind of rewarding career without a college degree, and you've allowed him to quit high school? 

Personally, I am not sure, if it was me, that I could do without a nice, smart teacher:  when I went to school, the teachers were mighty impatient & strict, and if you didn't 'get it' right away, they got ugly.  Somehow I learned algebra & trig, but it was largely thru my own efforts, done at home after school, using some ancient (from the 1920s & 30s) math textbooks that I found in our home.

Independent study is needed for all classes, just because you needed it doesn't mean that you should be so ungrateful as to not acknowledge the benefits of being taught whatsoever.  It's not the same anyway as what you would be putting your son through-- (a) you were still taught, (b) you officially took the class receiving credit and a grade that appears on your transcript.  Self study does not accomplish that, and having official records of your studies go farther than undocumented self study.

High schools these days are terrible, that's for sure.  But not even doing that is even worse.  Putting up with jobs and people you don't like is part of growing up, you really should encourage your child to go back to school.

[Chosen Barley]

But you're not home schooling him either are you?  You're just telling him that it's acceptable to do nothing about his education.  In this day and age it's become more and more difficult to make any kind of rewarding career without a college degree, and you've allowed him to quit high school? 

Independent study is needed for all classes, just because you needed it doesn't mean that you should be so ungrateful as to not acknowledge the benefits of being taught whatsoever.  It's not the same anyway as what you would be putting your son through-- (a) you were still taught, (b) you officially took the class receiving credit and a grade that appears on your transcript.  Self study does not accomplish that, and having official records of your studies go farther than undocumented self study.

High schools these days are terrible, that's for sure.  But not even doing that is even worse.  Putting up with jobs and people you don't like is part of growing up, you really should encourage your child to go back to school.

Well.

High schools are terrible?  I never said that.  But so is hitting your thumb while hammering.  My boys like constructing & repairing things, and sooner or later they will hit their thumbs with the hammer.  I guess I am a neglectful mother for not hitting their thumbs now, to prepare them for the future pain. 

It is indeed true that putting up with jobs and people you don't like tends to happen.
And here is what someone else said about childhood and education and learning:

Childhood is not preparation for life; childhood is life. Childhood is not a time when the child is molded into a human who will then live life; he / she is a human who is living life. No child will miss the zest and joy of living unless they are denied to him by adults who have convinced themselves that childhood is a period of preparation. How much we would teach each other...adults with the experience and children with their freshness. A little child may not lead us, but at least we ought to discuss the trip with him; for after all, life is his and her journey too.

[SonicMan46]

Hello again, Ms. Barley - you really need to be honest w/ those willing to read your posts and respond - first, how many children do you have in this non-schooling situation? Second, what are their ages?; and Third, are you and your husband (if applicable), doing 'home schooling'?  This might help all in better understanding the situation - 

I've been a medical educator for 31 years (Professor of Radiology in Winston-Salem, North Carolina) - I teach M.D.s to become 'diagnostic radiologists', a little higher on the 'food chain' than high school - in today's changing world, your kids need an education and one that is documented (i.e. a piece of paper/diploma/etc.) - HS is a bare minimum; they are unlikey to obtain a well paying job w/o even further education, whether that is vocational in a local college or at a higher level.

I came from a family of 3 boys growing up in the mid-50s/60s (6 yrs apart) - my father was willing to put us all through college - I went to college & medical school; trained as a 'diagnostic radiologist' and returned to a teaching position as described above; both of my brothers did graduate from HS, but then worked for my father in his typewriter/adding machine business (of course, the computer revolution destroyed that field), which require them to constantly re-learn & re-train; currently, they are both unemployed and struggling w/ their lives, esp. in today's economy!

I don't know if any of this effort will be of assistance, but you've already received numerous opinions to get your kids educations - can't go much further - good luck whatever your decision - 

[DavidW]

Well.

High schools are terrible?  I never said that.  But so is hitting your thumb while hammering.  My boys like constructing & repairing things, and sooner or later they will hit their thumbs with the hammer.  I guess I am a neglectful mother for not hitting their thumbs now, to prepare them for the future pain. 

No I would say that you would have made a poor choice if you supported their decision to not repair things because they were afraid of hurting their thumbs.  Your analogy seems to imply that education is merely pain with no merit, something I find to be quite absurd.

Childhood is not preparation for life; childhood is life. Childhood is not a time when the child is molded into a human who will then live life; he / she is a human who is living life. No child will miss the zest and joy of living unless they are denied to him by adults who have convinced themselves that childhood is a period of preparation. How much we would teach each other...adults with the experience and children with their freshness. A little child may not lead us, but at least we ought to discuss the trip with him; for after all, life is his and her journey too.

Childhood is preparation for adulthood, and any sensible person would realize that both play and becoming mature are both part of growing up, and a child wouldn't be whole without both.  Certainly having a child do nothing but study and chores would be imbalanced, but the same can be said for a child that does nothing but play with no responsibility.

[Chosen Barley]

As per my opening post, all I wanted was recommendations for a math course for a boy who, seemingly out of nowhere, perhaps regrets some of his "schooling career" and now wants to catch up.

So, I finally found something that might be appropriate.  I will let y'all know how it goes! 

http://www.stanleyschmidt.com/FredGauss/12FourReaons.html

Thank you for all your trouble. - Mrs. B.

PS:  The child in question has plenty of responsibility, tho lots of fun, too.  I do not know why anyone would think otherwise.