The Mysterious Island of Influence

[Cato]

Dudes and Dudettes!  Riddle me this!   

Which composer might have influenced both Aaron Copland and Benjamin Britten in the early 1960's, specifically the former in his 12-tone work Connotations  and the latter in his War Requiem ?


And which work of this mystery composer might be involved?




The answer is...







Bernard Herrmann's score for Mysterious Island!     

Your Cato, a highly skeptical and meticulous type, although he does have an impetuous side which has led to ruin and ruination more than once, does not make this claim!

It comes from the CD notes for the Stromberg/Moscow Symphony performance of Mysterious Island, from the pen of a certain Kevin Scott (and I also have a rule that one should always be highly skeptical of anyone named Kevin or Brian, but that is another essay).  As "composer/conductor" he runs an outfit called the "Symphonic Band of SUNY at Orange County Community College of Middletown, NY."

And you don't!   


Concerning the Copland, K. Scott writes: "...many critics noticed a darker, angrier edge to Copland's least-played opus, both in its structure (Cato asks: how is "structure" either "dark" or "angry"?) and orchestration.  Is it possible that Copland picked up much of Herrmann's gothic violence and was influenced by his unusual orchestral timbres?"

So Copland sees "Mysterious Island" while composing Connotations  and decides "By gum, that Bernie Herrmann kid has some quavers I can consciously quaff," and then (in a Homer Simpson moment) he says gleefully: "And nobody will ever know!!!"

So allow me to throw open the topic not just about this example, but about any questionable claims of "influence" from one composer to another.  The one that caused a hubbub some years back was the discovery of the Hans Rott Symphony and its "influence" on Mahler, especially the Second Symphony.  The idea of influence was questionable to some critics, who claimed that the similarities were a now-no-longer-secret homage to Mahler's friend.  "Rotters" even yelled outright plagiarism at the Mahlerians.

I thank you for your comments in advance! 

[Brian]

(and I also have a rule that one should always be highly skeptical of anyone named Kevin or Brian, but that is another essay)

Um. Hi. 

[Cato]

Um. Hi. 

Greetings Brian!

I'm skeptical!   0:)

And be glad you aren't a Kevin!   

Best Wishes!

Cato   

On Topic: I once read a pamphlet from East Germany (aka the German Democratic Republic) claiming that Communism was a great and positive influence on composers.   

Here's how: composers brought up under Communism get rid of their eccentric individualistic tendencies and concentrate on making their talent comprehensible to the people, thus preventing any "formalistic tendencies" from confusing the understanding of the people.

And you wonder why I am skeptical!   0:)

[greg]

Um. Hi. 

We can't trust you. So get the heck out of here, kid!   

Cato, that guy just sounded silly and drunk. Drunk people need to have jobs, too, you know.

[karlhenning]

(Cato asks: how is "structure" either "dark" or "angry"?)

Or "edgy" 

[Brian]

On Topic: I once read a pamphlet from East Germany (aka the German Democratic Republic) claiming that Communism was a great and positive influence on composers.   

Here's how: composers brought up under Communism get rid of their eccentric individualistic tendencies and concentrate on making their talent comprehensible to the people, thus preventing any "formalistic tendencies" from confusing the understanding of the people.

And you wonder why I am skeptical!   0:)

Wow, and you didn't even know that I wrote it! 

[Cato]

Wow, and you didn't even know that I wrote it! 

Wocka Wocka!

[greg]

Or "edgy" 

Oh yeah! especially ABCABDBE structures! 

[drogulus]

    Herrmann once accused Copland of plagiarizing his work. These New York composers were not always mutually supportive, and Herrmann was notoriously touchy. He was one of the most talented total assholes in history. 

[Brian]

    Herrmann once accused Copland of plagiarizing his work. These New York composers were not always mutually supportive, and Herrmann was notoriously touchy. He was one of the most talented total assholes in history. 

I'd like to hear more about him 'round these parts. I have a musicologist friend who is unhealthily obsessed with the Herrmann opera Wuthering Heights.

[Cato]

I'd like to hear more about him 'round these parts. I have a musicologist friend who is unhealthily obsessed with the Herrmann opera Wuthering Heights.

You must know my brother!  I have heard criticisms of the singing in that work, which wonder why Herrmann (who apparently picked them) let them sing in such a mediocre fashion.

On topic: perhaps the story of Herrmann believing Copland plagiarizing his music is where Mr. Scott (mentioned above) evolved his Mysterious Island  →  Connotations + War Requiem Theory.

[karlhenning]

Drunk people need to have jobs, too, you know.

'Round here, though, they cannot report to work under the influence.

[drogulus]

You must know my brother!  I have heard criticisms of the singing in that work, which wonder why Herrmann (who apparently picked them) let them sing in such a mediocre fashion.

On topic: perhaps the story of Herrmann believing Copland plagiarizing his music is where Mr. Scott (mentioned above) evolved his Mysterious Island  →  Connotations + War Requiem Theory.

    I think it was something like The Devil and Daniel Webster ending up in the Lincoln Portrait. This was in a letter to Copland from Herrmann. Now I don't remember the source, though I'm pretty sure of the works involved.

   

[Cato]

    I think it was something like The Devil and Daniel Webster ending up in the Lincoln Portrait. This was in a letter to Copland from Herrmann. Now I don't remember the source, though I'm pretty sure of the works involved.

   

Aha!  Thanks for the information!

I posted under the Arvo Pärt topic in the Composer's section a comment about the score of his new Fourth Symphony containing some sections which sounded Herrmannesque, and not just because of the use of an orchestra of mainly strings.

Somebody who has actually heard the symphony played in Chicago, as opposed to hearing it mentally as I did, verified my impression:

The 35 minute symphony, scored for strings and percussion, was mostly quiet and slow in tempo with a few forte sections. Nevertheless, an impressive work. Considering the quality of most new works for the concert hall this is a masterpiece! (Some of the string sonorities did sound like Herrmann)

There were only a few Herrmann like passages...sounding somewhat like the...music in Herrman's most famous (infamous?) string score

The oblique reference above is of course to Psycho. 

From James Nolen at the Bernard Herrmann website.

http://herrmann.uib.no/talking/view.cgi?forum=thGeneral&topic=3121