Haydn Op. 76 vs Beethoven Op. 18??

[Bulldog]

There's only one GMG and that's why he keeps posting here.

Everyone knows his agenda by now. I don't know why he bothers...

Attention?

[Dr. Dread]

Attention?

[prémont]

Considering the wretched and understudied performances that Op18 is usually given I'm not surprised Haydn is leading in the poll (amongst those who expressed a preference).

Would you mind to name concrete examples of the "wretched and understudied" performances op. 18 usually is given?

BTW I agree with you, that more period instr. recordings of these works - and LvBs quartets in general - are urgently needed. But there are several musically satisfying recordings of these works - on modern instruments.

[prémont]

I have found too many times that my opinion on a recording changed over time. I thought it was super and now I think there are other ones I like equally well. Or I have lost interest in the piece. Or I started to like a recording that left me cold before. I think that's healthy.

Very well put. This sums up my attitude to this issue as well.

Having experienced this a couple of times I've become less eager to proclaim something as the best  -  in sofar as I ever was.

Yes, one find out, that much is equally good, each in its own way.

[Rod Corkin]

Would you mind to name concrete examples of the "wretched and understudied" performances op. 18 usually is given?

Pick any performance at random out of a hat. Really in any poll where Haydn gets the better of Beethoven the reasons behind it do not lie in the compositions, but the performances.

BTW I agree with you, that more period instr. recordings of these works - and LvBs quartets in general - are urgently needed. But there are several musically satisfying recordings of these works - on modern instruments.

Well even the period instrument performances I have, (by the Smithson and the Quator Mosaiques in addition to the Turner) all have basic faults somewhere along the line. I am yet to be wholly satisfied.

[Herman]

Really in any poll where Haydn gets the better of Beethoven the reasons behind it do not lie in the compositions, but the performances.

Bull. I don't care what happens in polls, but I reserve the right to like Haydn better than Beethoven, thank you.

Since there are about a  thousand LvB recordings for every Haydn recording I think the issue is not the quality of the recorded performance.

[Josquin des Prez]

HIP Beethoven hasn't been very successful so far. Not enough enthusiasm for it. Too much competition from traditional recordings i guess. There isn't a single one among the greatest musicians of all time that hasn't given a go at this composer. How do you match that? It is with the Baroque and earlier music that the HIP movement is really shining, thanks to the fact most of this music has been terra incognita up to very recently.

[Rod Corkin]

HIP Beethoven hasn't been very successful so far. Not enough enthusiasm for it. Too much competition from traditional recordings i guess. There isn't a single one among the greatest musicians of all time that hasn't given a go at this composer. How do you match that? It is with the Baroque and earlier music that the HIP movement is really shining, thanks to the fact most of this music has been terra incognita up to very recently.

What are you talking about? The traditional recordings are much worse, otherwise I wouldn't have give them away in favour of the 'new school' stuff. The HIP performances there are have demonstrated beyond doubt that is the path to follow concerning Beethoven, and outside of this forum be assured there is plenty of enthusiasm! 

On logical ground too there HIP is the way to go, the same logic as with the Baroque scene. But this has been milled over 1000 times, if anyone wants to hear the proof of it you know where to go. HIP Beethoven quartet recordings are still in short supply but that can only improve over time. As for everything else I have got loads of HIP Beethoven recordings. 

[Rod Corkin]

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Since there are about a  thousand LvB recordings for every Haydn recording I think the issue is not the quality of the recorded performance.

Oh you couldn't be more wrong...

[Bunny]

I had to go with Beethoven.  While the Haydn is more mature and more refined, the Beethoven is younger, more energetic, and far more fun.  I listen to the Beethoven so much more than the Haydn which requires more attention.

Btw, for a really great HIP performance of the Op.18, you can't beat the Quatuor Turner.

[Josquin des Prez]

I had to go with Beethoven.  While the Haydn is more mature and more refined, the Beethoven is younger, more energetic, and far more fun.

So you prefer the Beethoven because it is a bit more mediocre. I've always respected your taste in recordings but when you say things like this i weep inside. 

[aquablob]

What are you talking about? The traditional recordings are much worse, otherwise I wouldn't have give them away in favour of the 'new school' stuff.

Yes, I see the light now! The logic is so simple, how could I have not realized this before? Rod Corkin gives away non-HIP Beethoven recordings in favor of HIP Beethoven recordings — ergo the non-HIP Beethoven recordings are much worse!

The HIP performances there are have demonstrated beyond doubt that is the path to follow concerning Beethoven

Holy fortepiano, Batman!

On logical ground too there HIP is the way to go, the same logic as with the Baroque scene. But this has been milled over 1000 times, if anyone wants to hear the proof of it you know where to go.

But Roddy C, buddy ol' pal, the only logical proof I need is your godsend of a post! Seeing the errors of my ways, all I can say is: thank you, Rod Corkin. Thank you now and for eternity.

[Dr. Dread]

So you prefer the Beethoven because it is a bit more mediocre. I've always respected your taste in recordings but when you say things like this i weep inside. 

[Bulldog]

What are you talking about? The traditional recordings are much worse, otherwise I wouldn't have give them away in favour of the 'new school' stuff. The HIP performances there are have demonstrated beyond doubt that is the path to follow concerning Beethoven, and outside of this forum be assured there is plenty of enthusiasm! 

On logical ground too there HIP is the way to go, the same logic as with the Baroque scene. But this has been milled over 1000 times, if anyone wants to hear the proof of it you know where to go. HIP Beethoven quartet recordings are still in short supply but that can only improve over time. As for everything else I have got loads of HIP Beethoven recordings. 

I see you're at it again - subjective preference becomes objective fact.

[Josquin des Prez]

The implication of her post is that Beethoven's opus 18 is superior to his late quartets, which are also more mature and refined, and require quite a bit of attention (more then the opus 76 for sure). Indeed, they are among the most difficoult quartets ever written. Does that seem right to you?

[Bulldog]

The implication of her post is that Beethoven's opus 18 is superior to his late quartets, which are also more mature and refined, and required quite a bit of attention (more then the opus 76 for sure). 

That's a bit of a stretch.  Perhaps Bunny herself will let us know whether she prefers Op. 18 to the late quartets.  If so, that's fine.

[Josquin des Prez]

There's another point to consider also. If we argue that the opus 76 isn't in fact superior to the opus 18, isn't this essentially saying that the older master in the full of his creative powers honed through years of experience couldn't out do the youthful produces of a composer still trapped in a formative process, even one who turned out to be a greater genius in the end?

[Dr. Dread]

The implication of her post is that Beethoven's opus 18 is superior to his late quartets, which are also more mature and refined, and require quite a bit of attention (more then the opus 76 for sure). Indeed, they are among the most difficoult quartets ever written. Does that seem right to you?

No, she just likes the Beethoven more. Preference in music doesn't always rely on logic.

[Josquin des Prez]

No, she just likes the Beethoven more. Preference in music doesn't always rely on logic.

It's not the act of expressing a preference but the underlying logic she employed to explain said preference that i found questionable. There are plenty of other reasons to prefer the opus 18 over the opus 76. For one, they are much more advanced and adventurous, the younger composer trying to brake new ground while Haydn was content in pushing the traditional string quartet style he himself introduced with the opus 33 to it's ultimate level of perfection. That is a much more convincing argument in my view.

[Herman]

the younger composer trying to brake new ground while Haydn was content in pushing the traditional string quartet style he himself introduced with the opus 33 to it's ultimate level of perfection. That is a much more convincing argument in my view.

The only problem is it's false. There's plenty of innovation in the op 67