Anner and his legacy for just 19,95!

[FideLeo]

Ofcourse, if they make corrections to the later sets, they may very well put in the later recordings and retain the graphics.  Or, they may just leave it as it is, with only those who have both sets who atually play the recordings to make the distinction.

I think sony is not making any "corrected" pressings, that's why we still have the warning messages at the tower records jp product page.  One can see from the consumer feedback
(at the bottom of the page) that people love that mistake, i.e. they are happy to have the earlier
recording in the set despite what is shown on the covers...

[Que]

Halfway down the page one sees some information printed in red: In the first instance, it says for CD1, 2 Bylsma's first recording was used, and it's the one where he played a real Baroque cello (i.e. not the 'post-op' Strad Servais ).

This is of course not your comment but the quotation from the Tower site.

Nevertheless I'd like to point out that I don't think the statement is true. The first five suites in the 2nd recording were performed on a Stradivarius (the "Servais") from 1701, which has been preserved without any significant alterations. The 6th suite is performed on a violoncello piccolo from 1700.

Q

[FideLeo]

This is of course not your comment but the quotation from the Tower site.

Nevertheless I'd like to point out that I don't think the statement is true. The first five suites in the 2nd recording were performed on a Stradivarius (the "Servais") from 1701, which has been preserved without any significant alterations. The 6th suite is performed on a violoncello piccolo from 1700.

Q

I guess here we will have to take the Smithsonian curators' word for it then, even though I thought for a cello to play through the nineteenth century while retaining its late seventeenth century configuration seems rather unlikely.  An endpin is implemented on the Servais - that is for sure - one can see from the picture of Bylsma playing it in the Vivarte booklet.

[Que]

An endpin is implemented on the Servais - that is for sure - one can see from the picture of Bylsma playing it in the Vivarte booklet.

Correct, added in 1850 during the ownership of François Servais himself. But that seems to be all. The booklet states that this instrument, as one of the few, has escaped the "cutting"/down sizing operation that was customary since the early 19th century.

Q

[Valentino]

I own the later recording solo suite done 5/6 with the Servais Strad, and I think it's quite wonderful. Thanks for the tip on the box set. More Mr. Bijlsma is probably good for me.

[Harry]

I am so glad you are all so happy about this box, boy am I glad that I brought this to your attention again.

[FideLeo]

Correct, added in 1850 during the ownership of François Servais himself. But that seems to be all. The booklet states that this instrument, as one of the few, has escaped the "cutting"/down sizing operation that was customary since the early 19th century.

Q

Not a new finger board?  A new bridge?  Do bear in mind that when the cello was made in 1704, it was intended as a continuo instrument and never had to "sing" passages in very high tessituras like it had to in the nineteenth century, when the cello became a concert or solo instrument.   Yes, the Servais may not have been "cut" like most other Strads, but that may be all there is to its miraculously well-preserved state.  If I were to follow Sigiswald Kuijken's argument, I'd say it is impossible to use all Baroque techniques if one has to hold the instrument in a non-Baroque way i.e. with a chin support, an endpin etc.   Perhaps that's why Bylsma's second recording doesn't sound particularly baroque to me....  But enough of this speculation. Some will enjoy Bach on the Servais no matter what.

ps. Sigiswald Kuijken had this idea of playing the JSB cello suites on a very large viola or a cello piccolo "on the shoulder"--  viola pomposa or cello piccolo da spalla -- but never had the chance to put it on record, presumably for lack of financial supports.  Those interested can check out the webpage of Dmitry Badiarov, who is currently experimenting on reviving these engimatic string instruments. http://violadabraccio.com/

[Bunny]

I guess here we will have to take the Smithsonian curators' word for it then, even though I thought for a cello to play through the nineteenth century while retaining its late seventeenth century configuration seems rather unlikely.  An endpin is implemented on the Servais - that is for sure - one can see from the picture of Bylsma playing it in the Vivarte booklet.

The curator for the musical instruments collection now is Kenneth Slowik, but I don't recall if he was curator when the suites were recorded.  I haven't looked at the booklet in quite some time, but if I recall correctly it said that the cello was remarkably well preserved, and aside from the addition of an endpin had not been cut down from its original baroque era size.  I also recall that Bijlsma noted that he used gut strings except for the lowest bass (C) string for which he chose after much thought to use a steel wrapped string.  I can't remember whether it stated explicitly that the cello had undergone no interior rebuilding, but that was my general impression. I think if it has not been cut down from the original size, it's unlikely that it has been reconstructed within as it would have been altogether too easy to cut the cello down to the more modern size when doing that interior work.

Here's the entry from Answers.com and a picture of the cello as it appears today, being played by Kenneth Slowik.

The Servais Stradivarius is an antique cello fabricated in 1701 by Italian luthier Antonio Stradivari of Cremona (1644-1737). It one of only sixty-three extant cellos attributed to his handicraft. The cello takes its name from the nineteenth-century Belgian cellist, Adrien Francois Servais (1807-1866), who played this cello.

The Servais Stradivarius is currently owned by the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History. The instrument is famous for its remarkable state of preservation—retaining its original 1701 label—and musical excellence. The Russian Princess Yusupov purchased the cello for Servais ca. 1845, and was subsequently passed to his son. The cello was later donated to the Smithsonian Institute by Charlotte Bergen of New Jersey. Cellist Anner Bylsma used the Servais in his 1992 recording of the J. S. Bach: Suites for Unaccompanied Cello.

[Bunny]

Not a new finger board?  A new bridge?  Do bear in mind that when the cello was made in 1704, it was intended as a continuo instrument and never had to "sing" passages in very high tessituras like it had to in the nineteenth century, when the cello became a concert or solo instrument.   Yes, the Servais may not have been "cut" like most other Strads, but that may be all there is to its miraculously well-preserved state.  If I were to follow Sigiswald Kuijken's argument, I'd say it is impossible to use all Baroque techniques if one has to hold the instrument in a non-Baroque way i.e. with a chin support, an endpin etc.   Perhaps that's why Bylsma's second recording doesn't sound particularly baroque to me....  But enough of this speculation. Some will enjoy Bach on the Servais no matter what.

ps. Sigiswald Kuijken had this idea of playing the JSB cello suites on a very large viola or a cello piccolo "on the shoulder"--  viola pomposa or cello piccolo da spalla -- but never had the chance to put it on record, presumably for lack of financial supports.  Those interested can check out the webpage of Dmitry Badiarov, who is currently experimenting on reviving these engimatic string instruments. http://violadabraccio.com/

Thank you for a most interesting link.

The idea of playing the suites on a viol da braccia is not new.  In any event, Patricia McCarty has recorded them on a (modern) viola and while she plays very well, it's still not the same thing at all.  Btw, the sound quality of that recording is amazing as it was recorded at the Troy Savings Bank New York, which is famous for its accoustics.

[Harry]

What a fine thread this has become, I am so glad about that.
Great fun, and good learning moments.
Thanks all.

[FideLeo]

Thank you for a most interesting link.

The idea of playing the suites on a viol da braccia is not new.  In any event, Patricia McCarty has recorded them on a (modern) viola and while she plays very well, it's still not the same thing at all.  Btw, the sound quality of that recording is amazing as it was recorded at the Troy Savings Bank New York, which is famous for its accoustics.

Right, even though I must emphasize that a modern viola is very different from a cello piccolo da spalla both in the way it is constructed or played.  Try the recording on Badiarov's webpage - the thing is so big it has to be secured with a shoulder strap.   Also, unlike what McCarty had done, playing the cello suites on a cello piccolo da spalla probably does not involve any transposition.  This means the issue of an adaptation "altering the character of its original" becomes largely a moot point.

[FideLeo]

What a fine thread this has become, I am so glad about that.
Great fun, and good learning moments.
Thanks all.

Thank you for providing the occasion for a discussion on Bylsma and the baroque cello.  Pieter Wispewey learned with Bylsma but later tended to disavow Anner's influences on him, including a love for Boccherini - hardly a Boccherini recording in sight in Wispelway's huge discography while Bylsma recorded plenty of Boccherini.  Hmm. 

[Bunny]

Thank you for a most interesting link.

The idea of playing the suites on a viol da braccia is not new.  In any event, Patricia McCarty has recorded them on a (modern) viola and while she plays very well, it's still not the same thing at all.  Btw, the sound quality of that recording is amazing as it was recorded at the Troy Savings Bank New York, which is famous for its accoustics.

Right, even though I must emphasize that a modern viola is very different from a cello piccolo da spalla both in the way it is constructed or played.  Try the recording on Badiarov's webpage - the thing is so big it has to be secured with a shoulder strap.   Also, unlike what McCarty had done, playing the cello suites on a cello piccolo da spalla probably does not involve any transposition.  This means the issue of an adaptation "altering the character of its original" becomes largely a moot point.

But I already stated that it's not the same!  In any event I did listen to the tracks on the website and they do sound very different from modern viola -- much deeper and lower in pitch.

[stingo]

Dang it - I'm not finished listening to most of my other JPC order! I'll have to see what else would be good to get (dang flat shipping fee)...

[Bunny]

Dang it - I'm not finished listening to most of my other JPC order! I'll have to see what else would be good to get (dang flat shipping fee)...

Try HMV UK.  The shipping from UK is more reasonable than from Germany, where the postal rates are killer.

[FideLeo]

But I already stated that it's not the same!  In any event I did listen to the tracks on the website and they do sound very different from modern viola -- much deeper and lower in pitch.

Yes, the idea of playing the cello suites on the viola is certainly not new - the practice of making arrangements for other instruments is actually centuries old.  However, Kuijken's da spalla instruments are not "other instruments" but the real thing itself except being smaller and played in a horizontal position.  This leads to Kuijken's assertion that he thinks the cello suites and the violin s&p's were actually composed for the same person (i.e. JSB himself) to use!   Considering the implications that this will have on the ways in which the cello suites will be played and interpreted in future hip, I do find it important to see the vital difference between this potential rediscovery and traditional arranging via transcription or transposition. 

Recorder players will understand this better - they know how much the character of music remains unchanged when played on an F-alto, an F-bassetto, or even an F-contrabasso.

[stingo]

Try HMV UK.  The shipping from UK is more reasonable than from Germany, where the postal rates are killer.

Thanks Bunny - I went with jpc though - found some more Brilliant boxes to get, as well as a cpo release (which should delight Harry). Will post the order in the purchases thread.

I actually have one of the Bylsma Bach Cello Suites recordings, the one with the Servais so if this new set has "alternate takes" with a different instrument, so much the better.

[Bunny]

Not a new finger board?  A new bridge? 

[Snip]

Dear Fl,

I have found the Smithsonian site for their instrument collection and they allow questions and comments to be posted.  I have no idea whether the question about possible changes to the cello will be accepted or answered, but I cobbled together a question from your posts as to whether any other changes were made when the endpin was added by Servais.  Here is a link to the site and a copy of my question (and yes, I have quoted you freely. )  I have added another picture of the cello in it's case, and perhaps you can tell whether the construction fo the fingerboard and bridge are baroque or 19th century.

If you have more questions or comments, I would love to eventually see them there.

http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/object.cfm?key=35&objkey=21

It has never been clear from any of the articles written about this cello whether any other alterations were made by Servais when he added the endpin.  I am curious because when the cello was made in 1704, it was intended as a continuo instrument and never had to "sing" passages in very high tessituras like it had to in the nineteenth century, when the cello became a concert or solo instrument.

[Valentino]

Received my copy from HMV yesterday, and I got the Dutch version! Harry, even if I'm Norwegian, and our languages have the same germanic root, the liner notes cannot be deciphered by yours truly.

Apart from that: I've listened to the Mozart and the Vivaldi, and dipped in on the Bach suites. Great stuff, all of it. Thanks again.

[Harry]

Received my copy from HMV yesterday, and I got the Dutch version! Harry, even if I'm Norwegian, and our languages have the same germanic root, the liner notes cannot be deciphered by yours truly.

Apart from that: I've listened to the Mozart and the Vivaldi, and dipped in on the Bach suites. Great stuff, all of it. Thanks again.

Well I could offer you to translate it into Norwegian, the only trouble being that I do not understand one Ioata from this beautiful language.
Had a Norwegian girlfriend somewhere in 1975, but she did not learn me to understand that language.