Daniel Jones(1912-93)-a prolific Welsh symphonist

[Dundonnell]

So...does this mean that you are not starting a Mathias thread after all?

I don't really like comparing composers. I have found that it tends to lead to somewhat futile argument on here because so much depends to a substantial degree on personal taste.

Daniel Jones is undoubtedly a genuine 'symphonist' in the sense that his thirteen symphonies are the essential core of his musical output. They demonstrate development of a 'Jones style' over time.

Mathias's three are only part of a more varied musical output. I think that they are fine works and I enjoy them immensely but they are not 'great symphonies' (whatever that means!). I would put Mathias into the Second Division of British Composers, albeit fairly high up in the order within that division I think that my favourite Mathias works are probably the shorter orchestral pieces 'Helios', 'Laudi', 'Vistas' and 'Requiescat'.

As for interesting Naxos........ We are back into what motivates record companies to give some composers a go and not others Naxos turned down the chance to record the music of Richard Arnell and Dutton took on that role with considerable success. Naxos has recorded seemingly almost everything William Alwyn ever composed. They are working through Bax and may now have started on John Ireland. Apart from the Violin Concerto they haven't even started on Edmund Rubbra. I would guess that it will take them a long time to get round to Welsh composers

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

So...does this mean that you are not starting a Mathias thread after all?

The 'mall' seems to have turned into 'small'. 

[cilgwyn]

The fact that they have brought out a cd of Mathias Violin Sonatas does inspire a degree of hope. If it sells reasonably well,they might be encouraged to explore further. Although,Mathias strikes me as the kind of accessible face of 20thc music,the kind of repertory that the average music lover is going to buy. Although,having said that,Mathias isn't exactly Karl Jenkins,is he,(thank goodness)? Daniel Jones would be more like unproven territory,a risk factor,and there doesn't seem to be anything much,in his output,with the same populistic appeal. So,maybe not!
As to comparisons. I don't like them either,and I know what you mean about those kind of arguments,having visited enough classical music message boards. I think I was sort of thinking out loud,if you'll pardon the expression. Whether we agree with such comparisons or not,I think we all tend to make them,to some degee.( Which is why we tend to favour one composer over another) In my defence,I wasn't actually disparaging Mathias's contribution to the symphonic canon,at all. Far from that,I feel I was defending him. Mathias obviously wasn't terribly interested in the symphony,(a fact that is underlined by the seventeen year gap between his first and second efforts in the form),he also seems to have been more interested in colour and atmosphere than metres or form & in that sense Daniel Jones was the more cerebral of the two composers. Nothing wrong with that! They're just two different people with very different preoccupations and,in my humble opinion,it is to Mathias's credit as a composer and musician,that his few efforts in the form are as successful as they are (although,if I had to nit pick,No 2,is probably the weakest of the three!!!). Yet,having lived all my life in this country,I do find these works curiously gripping. There is a Welshness to these works,a feeling for history and national identity,which is hard to explain. Maybe,if I was English (or French or American?) I would be more inclined to focus on their faults or even,dismiss them as second rate. Music for the heart and soul,perhaps. But whats wrong with that?

Ok,I'm off for a lie down after typing all that! (Pizzetti's Messa di Requiem.perhaps?)

NB: A Mathias thread will take some planning,not being a 'pro',like Dundonnell!!!

[Dundonnell]

Don't worry...I know that you weren't trying to disparage Mathias

You might be interested in this quotation from Mark Morris's invaluable 'The Pimlico Dictionary of Twentieth Century Composers'( a book I often quote from even though I don't always agree with the author-particularly in his dislike of Robert Simpson!):

"Of the four main composers Wales has produced to date(the other three being Alun Hoddinott, Daniel Jones and Grace Williams) William Mathias is probably the best known but ultimately, with the exception of his church music, the least interesting. This is partly because his prolific idiom was inclined to be derivative and sometimes dated, and partly because of his inclination towards superficiality rather than substance. In particular, his rather inflexible rhythmic invention failed to illuminate his other areas of technical command".

The composer Mathias most reminds me of is actually early Michael Tippett. There is a brightness about the textures of Mathias's music, even when he is writing serious-minded music which you certainly don't find in that much more difficult composer Alun Hoddinott

[cilgwyn]

I'm going to have to start a Mathias thread,aren't I?!!!!

[Dundonnell]

British composers who do not appear to have their own threads include:

Stanley Bate
Sir Richard Rodney Bennett
Rutland Boughton
Geoffrey Bush
Peter Racine Fricker
John Gardner
Cecil Armstrong Gibbs
Iain Hamilton
Gordon Jacob
William Mathias
Anthony Milner
Robin Orr
Bernard Stevens
Robert Still

............so, work to be done

[cilgwyn]

Rutland Boughton might be worth a thread,if only (for me,anyway) on the basis of his,rather nice Second Symphony,'Deirdrie,which has a rather lovely slow movement. Apart from that one, I have to admit,the few Boughton cds I have do tend to stay in the old box. Though that one,''Aylesbury Games' (?) has got some quite decent music on it,I think!!!! My own honest opinion,though,is that Boughton,(like Holbrooke,whose music strikes me as the more intriguing of the two), is more interesting to read about than listen to. But,I may be wrong.
Fricker sounds as if he deserves a thread,but until Dundonnell's vast treasure trove is unlocked,there are probably not enough recordings around,let alone performances,to generate any kind of debate. The same goes for Iain Hamilton. At any rate,I should have the Lyrita cd of the Fricker (Morgan & Banks) before long,hopefully & that cd off the Fricker & Orr symphony,sounds very tempting.
Of the other contendors,I notice that cds of Gordon Jacobs always seem to get very positive reviews. So,maybe he does too.
And then there's always the mysterious William Gaze Cooper. I have fancied hearing his Symphony No 4 (The West Wind) for some years. (His Second is based on a Swiss Yodel!!!) But without any performances & recordings,what can you post?
And who knows,what some of the other equally mysterious sounding,neglected names on Dundonnell's tapes,might generate?
As to DANIEL JONES,the MAIN subject of this thread,(!)I have put his book about Dylan Thomas FIRMLY on my 'list'!

[Albion]

David Morgan (1933-1988) has been mentioned several times in this thread - here is some information on him:

http://www.musiccentre.ca/apps/index.cfm?fuseaction=composer.FA_dsp_biography&authpeopleid=176&by=M

and a brief exchange on the messageboard at Musicweb:

http://members2.boardhost.com/MusicWebUK/thread/1196867194.html

[cilgwyn]

I've seen those,but they're handy links for anyone who hasn't. My Lyrita cd of the David Morgan Concerto (etc) is still in the post & hopefully should turn up soon!

[Lilas Pastia]

http://www.mediafire.com/?gwsteelf843vw#

CLICK ME!!!

cilgwyn I'm confused: your files advertise - if I may put it that way - the entire, 4-movement Grace Williams symphony no. 1. And yet when I search for that work I only come across an article claiming she scrapped the work and retained the scherzo only. Recorded on Lyrita I found symphony no. 2 only. I thought you may had mislabeled that download but no, the movement timings are different ! So what have we got ther ? 

[Dundonnell]

cilgwyn I'm confused: your files advertise - if I may put it that way - the entire, 4-movement Grace Williams symphony no. 1. And yet when I search for that work I only come across an article claiming she scrapped the work and retained the scherzo only. Recorded on Lyrita I found symphony no. 2 only. I thought you may had mislabeled that download but no, the movement timings are different ! So what have we got ther ? 

It IS the entire Symphony No.1 of 1943

A radio broadcast from 2008 with the BBC National Orchestra of Wales under Owain Arwel Hughes.

[cilgwyn]

I wonder if that performance  (Grace Williams No 1)will emerge on cd. Some of those studio performances do,but three years,doesn't look too promising!
Johan's joke about Grace Jones backfired. Windows Media seemed determined to label my Grace Williams downloads as Nightclubbing by Grace Jones (complete with a scary looking picture of the woman!)
It is Symphony No 1,you're listening to,not 'Slave to the rhythm'?!!!

[cilgwyn]

Just in case anyone doesn't already know,Grace Williams's Violin Concerto and Sinfonia Concertante have been uploaded to Youtube. Hopefully,the following link will take you to the Violin Concerto. If not,it (and the Sinfonia) ARE up there!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RMyOmaNlmI

Sinfonia Concertante (hopefully!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L6mQQzxAts

This is why I'm still using cassettes! (I love 'em though)

More fun Welsh music here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?gwsteelf843vw#


An interesting article about Grace Williams and the "Holy Grail of Welsh Classical Music",her 'Missa Cambrensis',here:

http://www.bangor.ac.uk/news/full-ori.php.en?Id=1206

Plus a transcribed interview with the composer here:

http://www.welshmusic.org.uk/grace_williams.htm

                                                                           Yours Sincerely
                                                                            Fred Flinstone esq.

[vandermolen]

David Morgan (1933-1988) has been mentioned several times in this thread - here is some information on him:

http://www.musiccentre.ca/apps/index.cfm?fuseaction=composer.FA_dsp_biography&authpeopleid=176&by=M

and a brief exchange on the messageboard at Musicweb:

http://members2.boardhost.com/MusicWebUK/thread/1196867194.html

Yes, I was one of those participating in the Musicweb exchange. I loved that Lyrita LP with the Violin Concerto and Contrasts - it was not a good idea to split them up on CD.

[cilgwyn]

Hopefully my cd copy will arrive this week! It does seem to daft to put 'Contrasts' on another cd,but there we are!!!

[cilgwyn]

Nice to see a mention of Daniel Jones in this review,however brief.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/sept11/hughes_biscd1674.htm

Hope the link works.I'm still a newbie to this!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Yes, it works! Thanks for the link!

[cilgwyn]

Thanks.So,I finally cracked it & the inserting of photo's! Musn't get too carried away,though. Don't want Fozzie Bear turning up in too many threads.
Daniel Jones only gets a brief look in,but it's something.

[Dundonnell]

Somm are issuing the Piano Concertos Nos. 1 and 2 by William Mathias played by Mark Bebbington with the Ulster Orchestra under George Vass on 17th October.
The coupling is the VW Fantasy for Piano and Orchestra(1896, revised 1904).

Excellent news

Now...what about the Mathias Violin Concerto and the Organ Concerto

[cilgwyn]

Thanks for the good news. George Vass did the Holbrooke,I believe. Mathias may not be the deepest composer,but he sounds modest,he was good at what he did & the more the merrier,I say. But the lack of interest in Daniel Jones,Grace Williams or David Wynne,amongst others,makes you think.