What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?

Started by Bonehelm, May 24, 2007, 08:52:55 AM

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drogulus

      Separates don't sound better because they are separate. They sound better, if and when they do, because the power amp is far more capable than the one located in the receiver or integrated amp you were using. There is no magic formula for getting better sound than you get from equipment meeting it's design goals. The component that is routinely driven past it's limitations is the power amp. Therefore that is what can be profitably replaced (I mean for you :)).

      Once again I have to remind all the mystics here that equipment does not make your music sound better unless you're playing a Fender Stratocaster. If you're just playing your recordings you want sufficiency. There is nothing better than that to be had on the electronics side. Speakers are different, of course. That's because speakers fall so far short of perfectly replicating signals, whereas the stereo signals of recorded music are replicated with an accuracy that is below audibility providing you're not driving the amp too hard. This is why differences can't be heard in blind tests unless measurable differences can be found. Circuits that do their job don't sound different from each other because they are designed not to. It has taken decades of stupid propaganda to unlearn these lessons. What will it take to relearn them again?
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Bogey

Well, from the article David, it definitely sounds as if I should get some speaker stands for Wharfedales and work on their placement.  Right now they are on a shelf about head level when standing up.
There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Valentino

Yes. Those Wharfedales are in need of a good foundation. But unless you have a heavy carpeted floor avoid spikes, which are - together with cables - hifi-nonsense at large.
We audiophiles don't really like music, but we sure love the sound it makes;
Audio-Technica | Bokrand | Thorens | Cambridge Audio | Logitech | Yamaha | Topping | MiniDSP | Hypex | ICEpower | Mundorf | SEAS | Beyma

Fëanor

Quote from: drogulus on May 17, 2009, 11:38:32 AM

... Circuits that do their job don't sound different from each other because they are designed not to. It has taken decades of stupid propaganda to unlearn these lessons. What will it take to relearn them again?

You can believe that if you like.  That is, both sentence clauses are wrong.  In the first place they do sound different, and in the second place, it is often because they are designed to do so.

drogulus


     When they are designed to sound the same they do. When they are designed to sound different....see, that's the problem right there. If you imagine that electronic components could be profitably designed to be "more than sufficient" than you have bought into precisely the fallacy I'm identifying. That is, that after you've met the tech specs you have to add the good sound in or something will be missing. No, there is nothing to be missed.

Quote from: Feanor on May 17, 2009, 11:48:43 AM
You can believe that if you like. 

    I don't want to believe what I like.
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Bogey

There will never be another era like the Golden Age of Hollywood.  We didn't know how to blow up buildings then so we had no choice but to tell great stories with great characters.-Ben Mankiewicz

Coopmv

There are really three advantages to separates, not including integrated amp:

1) You can swap components in and out of your system.

2) Better parts quality

3) Better ventilation

But the second advantage may be debatable, as IC's and other electronic components have come a long way since separates were first introduced in the 1950's.

drogulus

Quote from: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 12:16:45 PM
There are really three advantages to separates, not including integrated amp:

1) You can swap components in and out of your system.

2) Better parts quality

3) Better ventilation

But the second advantage may be debatable, as IC's and other electronic components have come a long way since separates were first introduced in the 1950's.

     Basically, you're right. Especially with respect to the power amp. These days receivers are getting lighter, which means it's likely that the output power honestly measured is dropping. A receiver that once would weigh 26 lbs. now weighs 18 lbs. Check out the Sony 820, only one generation old, and then check out its replacement. How much do they weigh? If you want to know what really limits sound quality in mass market equipment this is a big part of it.
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Coopmv

Quote from: drogulus on May 17, 2009, 12:27:12 PM
     Basically, you're right. Especially with respect to the power amp. These days receivers are getting lighter, which means it's likely that the output power honestly measured is dropping. A receiver that once would weigh 26 lbs. now weighs 18 lbs. Check out the Sony 820, only one generation old, and then check out its replacement. How much do they weigh? If you want to know what really limits sound quality in mass market equipment this is a big part of it.

Not that I am in a China-bashing mood, but if you look at audio components that are made in China, they are almost always light-weight.  Indeed, light-weight also equates to low price.  A receiver that weighs under 20 lbs is meant to be thrown out after 2 years.

Hey, people get what they pay for - there is no free lunch.  My Revox B760, a 30-year old tuner, weighs almost 30 lbs.

Fëanor

#489
Quote from: drogulus on May 17, 2009, 11:59:47 AM
     When they are designed to sound the same they do. When they are designed to sound different....see, that's the problem right there. If you imagine that electronic components could be profitably designed to be "more than sufficient" then you have bought into precisely the fallacy I'm identifying. That is, that after you've met the tech specs you have to add the good sound in or something will be missing. No, there is nothing to be missed.

    I don't want to believe what I like.

I didn't have to be sold it: I've heard it.  And I'm not as delusional as audiophiles get, believe me.  Check out the debates interconnect cables sometime.  But fine amps don't all sound the same, and the best spec'd ones aren't always the best sounding.

And there are reasons that aren't the anti-science that you suppose. For example the most commonly quoted amplifier specification other than power is total harmonic distortion, (THD).  Transistors aren't particularly linear devices and will produce quite a bit of harmonic distortion, however in typical solid state designs extremely low THD can be obtained by applying negative feedback to the circuit.  Tube circuits cannot be design to produce these ulta low distortion levels but many people perfer the sound of tube amps, (given comparable power capacities or even somewhat less power from the tube amp).

The likely reason is that though THD is very low for typical solid state designs, the remaining harmonics are high-order, that is, 4th, 5th, and higher harmonics.  Tubes designs, on the other hand, have higher THD but the components are almost entirely low order, i.e. 2nd and some 3rd order.  It has been demonstrated in psycoacoustic experiments that human beings find higher order harmonics irritating but 2nd order harmonics much less so, in fact pleasant.

Coopmv

Quote from: Feanor on May 17, 2009, 12:49:19 PM
I didn't have to be sold it: I've heard it.  And I'm not as delusional as audiophiles get, believe me.  Check out the debates interconnect cables sometime.  But fine amps don't all sound the same, and the best spec'd ones aren't always the best sounding.


You hit it right on the nail.  $1000/m cable?  Gimme a break. 

Harry

Quote from: Feanor on May 17, 2009, 10:31:42 AM
Preamps aren't inherently better sounding than the front-end's of integrated amps, or receivers for that matter.  What a preamp can do is offer flexibility, especially the flexibility to upgrade parts of your system independantly of each other.  And that includes the ability to look for what you want or like for each of the separated components.

For example, having a preamp and power amp combo has enabled me to select a tube preamp with a solid state power amp, (a very popular combination by the way).  Since my preamp is a "line stage", i.e. without a phono preamp, I theoretically saved some money not buying phono stage of the same quality as my line stage, (instead I bought a really cheap phono for the very rare time I still listen to my extremely small LP collection).

Still, I'd be quite happy to trade my current preamp and power amps for a choice integrated like this Pass Labs INT-150 ...

I have a pre-end amplification of Pass Labs the X250, and can confirm the excellence of sound. This integrated 150 is a real pleaser too.

Fëanor

#492
Quote from: Harry on May 17, 2009, 02:30:15 PM
I have a pre-end amplification of Pass Labs the X250, and can confirm the excellence of sound. This integrated 150 is a real pleaser too.

Really nice, Harry.  I'm eating my heart out.  But pertaining to your X250, drogulus would but just as happy with the US$300 QSC GX3 professional amp below since it's a properly designed amp and just as powerful.

By the way, those speakers of yours you pictured earlier in the thread, are they Avalon Eidolons or Indras?  Whichever, I'm eating my heart out here too, though my preference might run to Soundlabs or maybe Apogee in the lofty price range.

Coopmv

Quote from: Feanor on May 17, 2009, 05:47:00 PM
Really nice, Harry.  I'm eating my heart out.  But pertaining to your X250, drogulus would but just as happy with the US$300 QSC GX3 300 professional amp below -- maybe more so since it's slightly more powerful.

By the way, those speakers of yours you pictured earlier in the thread, are they Avalon Eidolons or Indras?  Whichever, I'm eating my heart out here too, though my preference might run to Soundlabs or maybe Apogee in the lofty price range.

Is QSC a division of Crown International?  The QSC amp looks a bit like the Crown Macro Tech line of amps ...

Fëanor

#494
Quote from: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 05:49:32 PM
Is QSC a division of Crown International?  The QSC amp looks a bit like the Crown Macro Tech line of amps ...

I don't think QSC is related to Crown; in any case they operate as a separate and also well-regarded maker of pro audio gear.

If you think power is the be-all and end-all, for $1360, this QSC RMX-5050 will deliver a mind-numbing 1600 wpc into 4 ohms, both channels driven, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, with only 0.1% THD.  Or if you can kick it up to $3k, (about half the price of Harry's Pass Labs X250, 250 wpc), the QSC PowerLight 380 will punch 2000 wpc into 4 ohms or 4000 wpc into 2 ohms:o

Coopmv

Quote from: Feanor on May 17, 2009, 06:06:05 PM
I don't think QSC is related to Crown; in any case they operate as a separate and also well-regarded maker of pro audio gear.

If you think power is the be-all and end-all, for $1360, this QSC RMX-5050 will deliver a mind-numbing 1600 wpc into 4 ohms, both channels driven, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, with only 0.1% THD.  Or if you can kick it up to $3k, (about half the price of Harry's Pass Labs X250, 250 wpc), the QSC PowerLight 380 will punch 2000 wpc into 4 ohms or 4000 wpc into 2 ohms:o

I do not need any more power amps since I already have seven at my house and three of them are over 200 watts/ch, plenty for listening to exclusively classical music. Conrad Johnson makes pretty good amps as well ...

Fëanor

#496
Quote from: Coopmv on May 17, 2009, 06:38:58 PM
I do not need any more power amps since I already have seven at my house and three of them are over 200 watts/ch, plenty for listening to exclusively classical music. Conrad Johnson makes pretty good amps as well ...

Hah!  Don't get me wrong: I wasn't recommending the QSC amps.  And yes indeed, CJ makes some very fine amps and preamps.  My observation regarding the SF - CJ combo is that the CJ can't exploit the fully-balanced design of the SF -- not that that is likely to make much difference.

By the way, what tubes are you using in your Sonic Frontiers Line 1?  I rolled the standard Sovtek 6922 for these vintage Amperex 'PQ' (in the gain positions only).  The difference was a subtle but agreeable increase in warmth and perceived depth of soundstage.


Valentino

#497
Quote from: Bogey on May 17, 2009, 12:12:46 PM
What are "spikes"?
I fast-read this, and it's not too far off, even if it's got an open ended "everythng is possible" conclusion. It's hifi, after all:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/speaker-spikes-and-cones-2013-what2019s-the-point
We audiophiles don't really like music, but we sure love the sound it makes;
Audio-Technica | Bokrand | Thorens | Cambridge Audio | Logitech | Yamaha | Topping | MiniDSP | Hypex | ICEpower | Mundorf | SEAS | Beyma

Harry

Quote from: Feanor on May 17, 2009, 05:47:00 PM
Really nice, Harry.  I'm eating my heart out.  But pertaining to your X250, drogulus would but just as happy with the US$300 QSC GX3 professional amp below since it's a properly designed amp and just as powerful.

By the way, those speakers of yours you pictured earlier in the thread, are they Avalon Eidolons or Indras?  Whichever, I'm eating my heart out here too, though my preference might run to Soundlabs or maybe Apogee in the lofty price range.

The Avalon's Ceramique. I can say that with the Nordost Valhalla cabling and interlinks, this is the best set I ever had, and will not part from it whatever.

Fëanor

Quote from: Harry on May 17, 2009, 11:42:06 PM
The Avalon's Ceramique. I can say that with the Nordost Valhalla cabling and interlinks, this is the best set I ever had, and will not part from it whatever.

Fabulous!  No doubt about that.