What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?

Started by Bonehelm, May 24, 2007, 08:52:55 AM

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Coopmv

Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 01:00:43 PM
I had a 3003 once. Pretty well packed it was.

I miss Tandberg and wish it was still around ...

Valentino

You can blame the Norwegian government. Tandberg was forced to join up with struggling Radionette, Out of the ashes (Vebjørn Tandberg committed suicide) came the 3000-series, and they were wonderful but way to expensive to produce and then death proper.
We audiophiles don't really like music, but we sure love the sound it makes;
Audio-Technica | Bokrand | Thorens | Cambridge Audio | Logitech | Yamaha | Topping | MiniDSP | Hypex | ICEpower | Mundorf | SEAS | Beyma

Scarpia

#542
Quote from: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 12:43:52 PMThese are excellent American, Norwegian and Japanese made equipments.  The Norwegian-made Tandberg amp is almost 30-year old but it still sounds great.

Good amps age well.  My old NAD 1155/2200 pair still running well (had to lube the power relays) and I realize it is now upwards of 20 years old. 

My first surround sound amp was an NAD, which I was surprised to see was made in China.  It was dead within 18 months.  Now using a Sony ES series that I got used off ebay for the surround sound rig and it is providing great satisfaction.


Coopmv

Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 01:28:37 PM
You can blame the Norwegian government. Tandberg was forced to join up with struggling Radionette, Out of the ashes (Vebjørn Tandberg committed suicide) came the 3000-series, and they were wonderful but way to expensive to produce and then death proper.

I still have my Tandberg TD 20A and TCD 330.






Coopmv

Quote from: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 01:29:46 PM
Good amps age well.  My old NAD 1155/2200 pair still running well (had to lube the power relays) and I realize it is now upwards of 20 years old. 

My first surround sound amp was an NAD, which I was surprised to see was made in China.  It was dead within 18 months.  Now using a Sony ES series that I got used off ebay for the surround sound rig and it is providing great satisfaction.



I still have my NAD 2200, the Power Envelope amp.  It worked just fine when I had it hooked up over a year ago.  The problem with Chinese-made gears is the relentless corners-cutting has made most of the equipments made there unreliable.  Buying a shirt made there is totally different than buying a piece of audio equipment that costs you hundreds of dollars and these days, even thousands of dollars as NAD is pretty much making all its equipments in China now, even the latest Master Series that starts at $1800 and up.  The last piece of NAD gear I bought was the SilverLine S500i CD Player.  The CDP was made in Denmark.  I have stopped buying NAD gears altogether and moved further upscale.  My 2 amps are both Conrad-Johnson.  I may spring for a Mac at some point. 

Coopmv

Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 01:28:37 PM
You can blame the Norwegian government. Tandberg was forced to join up with struggling Radionette, Out of the ashes (Vebjørn Tandberg committed suicide) came the 3000-series, and they were wonderful but way to expensive to produce and then death proper.

:(   Is Electrocompaniet still around?  BTW, LM Ericsson bought out whatever remained of Tandberg, right?

Scarpia

#546
Quote from: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 01:46:15 PM
I still have my NAD 2200, the Power Envelope amp.  It worked just fine when I had it hooked up over a year ago.  The problem with Chinese-made gears is the relentless corners-cutting has made most of the equipments made there unreliable.  Buying a shirt made there is totally different than buying a piece of audio equipment that costs you hundreds of dollars and these days, even thousands of dollars as NAD is pretty much making all its equipments in China now, even the latest Master Series that starts at $1800 and up.  The last piece of NAD gear I bought was the SilverLine S500i CD Player.  The CDP was made in Denmark.  I have stopped buying NAD gears altogether and moved further upscale.  My 2 amps are both Conrad-Johnson.  I may spring for a Mac at some point.  

I will also never buy another piece of NAD equipment as long as I live.  I'm wondering what they expect to gain by moving their manufacturing to China.

In any case, I noticed that NAD's web site has a "guestbook."  I've posted a polite message describing my experience, just out of curiosity to see if it actually appears there.


Coopmv

Quote from: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 02:15:16 PM
I will also never buy another piece of NAD equipment as long as I live.  I'm wondering what they expect to gain by moving their manufacturing to China.


You had to be quite angry about throwing hundreds of dollars away when the made-in-China NAD surround receiver lasted only 18 months.  The current NAD management is ruining the brand for sure.  When I brought up the relentless corners cutting and chronic reliability issues for made-in-China audio equipments at another forum, I was roundly attacked as xenophobic and a China-hater.  I am certainly not about to make any expensive mistake like buying a made-in-China $2500 Krell Integrated amp.  What I cannot understand is why Krell cannot make a profit on a $2500 integrated amp?   

Coopmv

Quote from: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 02:15:16 PM
I will also never buy another piece of NAD equipment as long as I live.  I'm wondering what they expect to gain by moving their manufacturing to China.

In any case, I noticed that NAD's web site has a "guestbook."  I've posted a polite message describing my experience, just out of curiosity to see if it actually appears there.



Let me share my experience.  When I found out NAD is making all its equipments in China, I posted a polite message in that NAD guestbook that I was quite disappointed that NAD's high-end are no longer made in a western country like Denmark, the message was deleted.  That episode hardened my resolve that I would never buy another piece of NAD equipments after having been an owner of the following components since 1986.

NAD 2200
NAD 2100
NAD 1700
NAD 218 THX
NAD 116
NAD 118
NAD S500i
NAD PP1

I also gave away an NAD CD Player to my sister.  I think it was NAD 520.  The NAD 218 THX is the only component that was made in China (I still own all of the above).  At the time, I was told by the retailer (SoundSeller in WI) that the model was made in a few different countries.  Mine just happened to have been made in China.  I accepted that with my antenna up and that was back in 99.

Fëanor

#549
Quote from: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 02:26:25 PM
You had to be quite angry about throwing hundreds of dollars away when the made-in-China NAD surround receiver lasted only 18 months.  The current NAD management is ruining the brand for sure.  When I brought up the relentless corners cutting and chronic reliability issues for made-in-China audio equipments at another forum, I was roundly attacked as xenophobic and a China-hater.  I am certainly not about to make any expensive mistake like buying a made-in-China $2500 Krell Integrated amp.  What I cannot understand is why Krell cannot make a profit on a $2500 integrated amp?  

What?  Surely you understand that capitalism isn't just about making a profit, it's about the highest possible profit.

However being made in China doesn't mean reducing quality necessarily, (as I explained the other day).  It depends on the maker, (NAD, Krell, whoever), and to what extent they enforce quality control.  Cambridge Audio, as I hear own and operate their own factory there.  Otherwise Chinese builders will make whatever you ask them to, and if you insist on high quality (and enforce it through QA), you'll get it.  It's certainly possible given that wages there are 10 cents on the dollar versus the U.S.

By the way, I have an Internet acquaintance who just bought the Krell S-300i; I'll pass on his impressions soon.

Coopmv

Quote from: Feanor on August 14, 2009, 02:56:18 PM
What?  Surely you understand that capitalism isn't just about making a profit, it's about the highest possible profit.

However being made in China doesn't mean reducing quality necessarily, (as I explained the other day).  It depends on the maker, (NAD, Krell, whoever), and to what extent they enforce quality control.  Cambridge Audio, as I hear own and operate their own factory there.  Otherwise Chinese builders will make whatever you ask them to, and if you insist on high quality (and enforce it through QA), you'll get it.  It's certainly possible given that wages there are 10 cents on the dollar versus the U.S.

By the way, I have an Internet acquaintance who just bought the Krell S-300i; I'll pass on his impressions soon.

I think it is far easier for Krell to enforce its quality than it is for NAD since the latter is the volume producer.  NAD used to have excellent quality across the board and it has always manufactured both the classic line and the premium line with the premium line usually made in the UK, Japan or Denmark while the classic line generally made in Singapore, Taiwan or Korea.  This was true until about 15 years ago. 

I fully understand your argument since I have worked in the financial industry for over 20 years.  Maximizing profits is the objective for every company.  But when a company has its premium products made in China and prices do not come down, there is a serious perception issue.  I believe MB and BMW both manufacture in China but the cars are ONLY for the Chinese domestic market, not for exports into the US.

Please do and post about the Krell S-300i.  I wonder if Krell, a CT-based company, will end up regretting having made this move?

Scarpia

#551
Quote from: Feanor on August 14, 2009, 02:56:18 PM
What?  Surely you understand that capitalism isn't just about making a profit, it's about the highest possible profit.

I don't think driving customers off is consistent with the highest possible profit.  When I got that made-in-China amp (which was obviously of poor quality even before it died) I had never purchased a non-NAD.  I replaced it with a $199 Sony that was functionally superior in every respect and have now replaced it with a nicer Sony ES amp, which also works beautifully.  They've never gotten another dollar out of me since, and I never miss the opportunity to tell anyone remotely considering any audio equipment to avoid NAD at all costs.  I don't consider that astute capitalism.




Valentino

Quote from: Coopmv on August 14, 2009, 01:48:04 PM
Is Electrocompaniet still around?

Yeah. Per Abrahamsen is out after bankrupcy (and that's good for both sound* and build quality), but the brand is growing and the glossy highend line is still made in Norway. New Electrocompaniet have also aquired Dynamic Precision, which has old Tandberg engineers on board. http://www.electrocompaniet.com/

Per Abrahamsen has a new brand: http://www.abrahamsenaudio.com/

*Per Abrahamsen had/has this idea that amplifiers made for playing back recorded music should have a sound. Nuff said.
We audiophiles don't really like music, but we sure love the sound it makes;
Audio-Technica | Bokrand | Thorens | Cambridge Audio | Logitech | Yamaha | Topping | MiniDSP | Hypex | ICEpower | Mundorf | SEAS | Beyma

Daverz

New toy, a Squeezebox Duet.  The receiver is the little black box on the left.  I have it hook hooked with a coaxial digital cable to my Cambridge Audio 840C.  It may already be worth it for just internet radio stations, which gives me some nice low dynamic range music to play at night.  Strings sound pretty bad at 128kbps, though.

The plan, however, is to put a FLAC music library in the loft, if the Antec PC case I bought is quiet enough.

Valentino

I'm a Logitech junkie myself. I use the Transporter as preamplifier. RIAA output is digitized by a RME ADI-2 and fed into one of the Transporter's SPDIF inputs.

Your Vandersteens are quite interesting, Daverz. I very much like that they have a proper bass EQ. I use that myself; no chance of getting a flat in-room response below say 200Hz in a box speaker without EQ.
We audiophiles don't really like music, but we sure love the sound it makes;
Audio-Technica | Bokrand | Thorens | Cambridge Audio | Logitech | Yamaha | Topping | MiniDSP | Hypex | ICEpower | Mundorf | SEAS | Beyma

Daverz

Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 11:24:36 PM
I'm a Logitech junkie myself.

I kinda knew this before, but it's going to be pretty challenging to tag 2500 or so CDs sensibly.  The slimdevices wiki has some recommendations.

Quote
I use the Transporter as preamplifier.  RIAA output is digitized by a RME ADI-2 and fed into one of the Transporter's SPDIF inputs.

Oh, wow, you're really dedicated.  :D

Quote
Your Vandersteens are quite interesting, Daverz. I very much like that they have a proper bass EQ. I use that myself; no chance of getting a flat in-room response below say 200Hz in a box speaker without EQ.

The bass EQ is only up to 125 Hz.  The Vandersteen procedure involves trying to reduce nulls and peaks, but not trying to completely smooth them out.  I've never really had full range speakers, at least full range in this room.  The NHT Xds had a big null at about 40Hz, so I was missing a lot of stuff going on in the low bass.  Even without EQ, the Vandys have no problem down to 30Hz.  The Vandy's bass is quite startling on some CDs, e.g. The Papa Jarvi recording of the Sibelius 4 Legends on Bis has low bass I never heard before.

Valentino

My bass Eq stops about there to. I only EQ my subs, and I've found that I cannot boost any nulls more than 3dB while peaks can be reduced almost indefinetely to yield a subjectively flat response. I guess Vandersteen have come to similar conclusions.
My main main speakers are passive, and the system can shake my home's foundations. Flat to 16Hz.
We audiophiles don't really like music, but we sure love the sound it makes;
Audio-Technica | Bokrand | Thorens | Cambridge Audio | Logitech | Yamaha | Topping | MiniDSP | Hypex | ICEpower | Mundorf | SEAS | Beyma

Coopmv

Quote from: Valentino on August 14, 2009, 09:56:36 PM
Yeah. Per Abrahamsen is out after bankrupcy (and that's good for both sound* and build quality), but the brand is growing and the glossy highend line is still made in Norway. New Electrocompaniet have also aquired Dynamic Precision, which has old Tandberg engineers on board. http://www.electrocompaniet.com/

Per Abrahamsen has a new brand: http://www.abrahamsenaudio.com/

*Per Abrahamsen had/has this idea that amplifiers made for playing back recorded music should have a sound. Nuff said.

Valentino,  Thanks for the link to Electrocompaniet, which I just bookmarked.  Electrocompaniet products were barely available in the US prior to this reorg of its US distributorship.  The Norwegian audio equipments are beautiful, just like many Norwegian women.  That is why I am hanging onto my 7 Tandberg components for the long haul.  How do Norwegians buy their audio equipments these days, mainly on the web?  When I last visited Oslo in 93, I think I noticed only one brick-and-mortar audio store.  I bought a wallet in Oslo which I am still using.   

Coopmv

Quote from: Scarpia on August 14, 2009, 07:43:28 PM
I don't think driving customers off is consistent with the highest possible profit.  When I got that made-in-China amp (which was obviously of poor quality even before it died) I had never purchased a non-NAD.  I replaced it with a $199 Sony that was functionally superior in every respect and have now replaced it with a nicer Sony ES amp, which also works beautifully.  They've never gotten another dollar out of me since, and I never miss the opportunity to tell anyone remotely considering any audio equipment to avoid NAD at all costs.  I don't consider that astute capitalism.





Scarpia,  You are absolutely correct.  Practicing capitalism to the nth degree is not about driving loyal customers like you and me away.  My understanding is NAD is on its third owner or something like that.  It is no longer the same company that was founded back in the late 70's.  Apparently, having only its Classic line made in China is not enough and I will not buy its Master Series.   

I love my CJ amps and its customer service is first-rate.

jlaurson

The "China debate" is quite tiresome. For companies like Krell, NAD, or Thiel, the point is hardly about "maximizing" profits. It's about sheer survival.
If quality controls are not working properly, then of course this is just cause for being irate. But the simplistic assertion of "[several parts] made/assembled in China = crap" does smack of ignorance, if not outright engineering-racism. [Aside, the Burr-Brown DAC chips remains the same, no matter the color of the hands placing it on the platine.]

Though, if the 'Chinese stench' dost offend, there are products in the next higher price category that are still made in England, Denmark, or Kentucky.

I, for one, have sampled speakers for several hours again (I had already auditioned B&W's CM5 and Vienna Accoustics "Haydn Grand") and my favorite, by far, was a China made (Kentucky-certified) monitor the detail and precision of which was astounding.

Thiel SCS4:


Utterly unforgiving, exposing everything that's great (or bad) about a recording. Not a 'blender' at all -- it's like having glasses that make you see your wife in High Definition every morning... rather than gently glossing over her with a touch of rosé gauze. With some non-classical music, it sounded a little stiff... bit like a classical customer trying to look hip at a reggae concert. But every other speaker sounded veiled (or puny) compared to it. Attacks are super crisp, bass smallish but defined and immediate.

The first comparison was a bit unfair; Dynaudio's 110 A (active speaker -- from beautiful Denmark, btw.) just couldn't match the naturalness and precision and its plus on the bass volume was bought at a decrease in definition.




The second candidate, the Revel Perform/a M22 was a much closer match, because its strengths of integration and excellent blend of neutrality and beauty. Not beautification like the "constant flatterer" B&W CM5, but less bent on making sure that absolutely no varnish was on the music that came out. A more practical speaker, I would say, for those who listen intently and to a wide range of music... but not for those who wish to have a precision tool.



Next I'll try the Piega C2 and the Klipsch Palladium against the Thiel (not that I can likely afford either of them), maybe throwing in a Focal Electra 1007 S for comparison.

Too bad the price for the Thiel almost doubles for Europeans. $2000,- (~Euro 1400,-) vs. Euro 2400,- leaves a mental sting in the pocket.