What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?

[petrarch]

I'm assuming, of course, that your $2000 interconnect is as well insulated as 10 cent per foot lamp chord.  That may be an incorrect assumption, however.  Probably the deliberately leave the insulation off so they can selll you the cable suspenders for $100 each.   

And the pulling of numbers continues . I really have no idea where you got those from.

Reducing everything to what is measured (and measurable) assumes it provides a complete description of the behavior of the system. I wonder, then, how a lot of equipment and accessories that measures the same can sound so different, or how equipment that measures so much better can sound so much worse.

But whatever, I am not trying to convince anyone. A simple way to try whether it works on one's system is to do what I described. Doesn't come cheaper than that.

[Scarpia]

And the pulling of numbers continues . I really have no idea where you got those from.

I measured them with suitable equipment.

Reducing everything to what is measured (and measurable) assumes it provides a complete description of the behavior of the system. I wonder, then, how a lot of equipment and accessories that measures the same can sound so different, or how equipment that measures so much better can sound so much worse.

Measurements made by the manufacturer are not measurements, they are advertising propaganda.  Measurements you have made yourself are measurements.

I have certainly confirmed this in listening.  When I first installed my speakers, before I decided where I wanted them I had them connected through entire 50 foot lengths of zip chord.  When I decided where they would go, I cut I trimmed the cable to the required length, about 5 feet.   Sounded identical.  If 50 feet sounds the same as 5 feet of the same cable, then the cable has no influence on sound.  I did hear subtle but noticeable differences playing the same CD on a different CD player, or using a different model power amplifier (NAD 2140 vs NAD 2200, vs Sony STR-DA2ES)

[George]

My speakers actually have little feet to keep the base off of the ground.  Bill if you don't have feet on your speakers, those little spikes are a good idea.

What if the speakers are on stands?

The stands are on a concrete floor, covered by linoleum. I have four rubber feet under each stand and also some rubber foam between each speaker and stand.

[drogulus]

I hear it. My wife heard it without noticing what was done. All anecdotal evidence, but I couldn't care less.

     If you don't care why tell anyone? I saw an anecdotal ghost yesterday, I don't care what you think but you should know.

     

Reducing everything to what is measured (and measurable) assumes it provides a complete description of the behavior of the system.

     Isn't that a safe assumption after a century of experience with music recording, amplifier and speaker technologies and 30 years of digital recording and playback? What unmeasured influences need to be taken into account, given what we know about vanishing differences under rigorous testing? Has anecdotal evidence acquired a new authority? How do you know that you're immune to biases that trip up everyone else? That seems like quite a bit not to care about. I don't think I could do that.

    Given the caveat about published specs versus real world performance measurements should match SQ perceptions fairly well under controlled conditions. There are stray biases all over the place that crop up when you "let them in", so to speak. Sometimes I hear a difference when the humidity goes way up. Is there an explanation? I don't know. It might be spurious, it might be the way I feel when everything is sticky. Could it be the difference in sound propagation in heavier air? I don't really have any idea. One thing I won't say, though, is that nothing measurable bears on it.

[DavidW]

What if the speakers are on stands?

The stands are on a concrete floor, covered by linoleum. I have four rubber feet under each stand and also some rubber foam between each speaker and stand.

Well hey that's cool George.   I was thinking of towers.

[Coopmv]

What if the speakers are on stands?

The stands are on a concrete floor, covered by linoleum. I have four rubber feet under each stand and also some rubber foam between each speaker and stand.

I think the discussion has been primarily focused on floor standers.  Bookshelf or satellite speakers have to go on stands for sure.

[George]

I think the discussion has been primarily focused on floor standers.  Bookshelf or satellite speakers have to go on stands for sure.

Right, I was just curious how important vibration isolation is in the case of stands.

[DavidW]

Right, I was just curious how important vibration isolation is in the case of stands.

Speaker stands are designed to handle the vibrations well, that's why you spend money on them instead of dropping bookshelves and satellites on a table.

[Coopmv]

Right, I was just curious how important vibration isolation is in the case of stands.

A few years ago, I picked up a bag of fine sand (the kind that is safe to be used in playpen) at Home Depot to fill up the hollow tubing between the floor and the plate where my bookshelf speaker rests as recommended by the stand manufacturer.  The sand should help dampen the vibration.

[George]

Speaker stands are designed to handle the vibrations well, that's why you spend money on them instead of dropping bookshelves and satellites on a table.

Kewl.

[petrarch]

I measured them with suitable equipment.

I was talking about the purported $2000 interconnect and $100/ea cable suspenders you said I had.

Measurements made by the manufacturer are not measurements, they are advertising propaganda.  Measurements you have made yourself are measurements.

Who said these were measurements made by the manufacturers?

The canonical example is how bad tubes measure in terms of distortion when compared to solid state components. Yet tubes sound better in general. I know all about even-harmonic and odd-harmonic distortion, but throwing out a single number like you did doesn't tell the whole story--comparable to asserting this ss amp has 0.0007% distortion, and this tube amp has 1% distortion; therefore the ss amp is better.

I have certainly confirmed this in listening.  When I first installed my speakers, before I decided where I wanted them I had them connected through entire 50 foot lengths of zip chord.  When I decided where they would go, I cut I trimmed the cable to the required length, about 5 feet.   Sounded identical.  If 50 feet sounds the same as 5 feet of the same cable, then the cable has no influence on sound.  I did hear subtle but noticeable differences playing the same CD on a different CD player, or using a different model power amplifier (NAD 2140 vs NAD 2200, vs Sony STR-DA2ES)

Well, you've confirmed that length makes no difference on zip cord when your source plays music through your amp and speakers. But the fact that you heard a subtle difference with a different amp and source means not all is lost . You might still see the light one day.

[petrarch]

     If you don't care why tell anyone?

I'm not trying to convince anyone. I merely described an experiment that is cheap to do and, who knows, might provide some results.
     

Isn't that a safe assumption after a century of experience with music recording, amplifier and speaker technologies and 30 years of digital recording and playback? What unmeasured influences need to be taken into account, given what we know about vanishing differences under rigorous testing? Has anecdotal evidence acquired a new authority? How do you know that you're immune to biases that trip up everyone else? That seems like quite a bit not to care about. I don't think I could do that.

So I gather you are saying everything that is to be discovered and known about analog and digital recording and sound reproduction technologies has been already discovered?

You know, the everyone else in your reasoning is the tell-tale sign of undue generalization. Other people conducted the same experiments and found similar results to mine, so I am pretty sure I am not fantasizing.

What I don't care about is to convince other people through argument. Just do it if you are curious to see what you might get. It's an easy experiment. If you don't want to do it, then that's fine, it's your prerogative.

Given the caveat about published specs versus real world performance measurements should match SQ perceptions fairly well under controlled conditions. There are stray biases all over the place that crop up when you "let them in", so to speak. Sometimes I hear a difference when the humidity goes way up. Is there an explanation? I don't know. It might be spurious, it might be the way I feel when everything is sticky. Could it be the difference in sound propagation in heavier air? I don't really have any idea. One thing I won't say, though, is that nothing measurable bears on it.

My point with what is measurable was simply to say that the usual reductionist view that equipment x is a 0.01 and equipment y is a 0.02 therefore one is better than the other. Better at what? Clearly at that particular quantity it seems, because there are other behaviors (or other numbers) that cannot possibly be encoded or represented by that performance metric alone.

Scarpia was saying "I measured resistance on the cord and obtained result x therefore I assert y in all circumstances". Well, what about inductance and capacitance? What about the behavior with a signal at 50 Hz going through it? And 500 Hz? And 5000 Hz? And 15000 Hz? And all values in-between? And in a high-RF environment?

[Daverz]

What if the speakers are on stands?

The stands are on a concrete floor, covered by linoleum. I have four rubber feet under each stand and also some rubber foam between each speaker and stand.

I'd worry more about the untreated first reflection points on the wall behind the speakers (pretty much the areas to the left and right of the kitchen entrance) and the floor.

[George]

I'd worry more about the untreated first reflection points on the wall behind the speakers (pretty much the areas to the left and right of the kitchen entrance) and the floor.

There's a rug on the floor that is just out of view in that photo.

How would you treat the wall behind the speakers? BTW, the ports are aimed so that they fire all the way back to the wall.

[Daverz]

How would you treat the wall behind the speakers?

Two 4'x2'x4" ATS Acoustics panels.  They also have materials for DIYers. 

BTW, the ports are aimed so that they fire all the way back to the wall.

You're speakers are far enough out from the wall that the rear firing ports shouldn't be a problem.

[George]

Two 4'x2'x4" ATS Acoustics panels.  They also have materials for DIYers. 

Thanks. Can you tell me what the panels will do for the sound?

[petrarch]

Thanks. Can you tell me what the panels will do for the sound?

They will provide some absorption of midrange frequencies. I wouldn't worry that much about covering the walls with such panels. The rest of the wall has irregular furniture and the rug you said you have should be enough to mitigate the problem of bare walls and too live a room. You can do a quick check by hanging a curtain or some heavy cloth like a rug and see if that makes a difference. It might actually deaden the sound a bit too much. If that is the case, you can improve matters by using diffusers, either by getting specialized panels for that (not absorbers) or some dense plants.

In my case, I found that absorption panels on the walls behind the speakers are actually detrimental to the overall airiness and sense of space of the sound--and they are planar (dipoles), so they radiate as much energy forward as they do backward.

[George]

 Thanks petrArch!

[Daverz]

Thanks. Can you tell me what the panels will do for the sound?

Treating the front wall first reflection points can improve image specificity.  I would at least move the TV rack away from that position.

[George]

Treating the front wall first reflection points can improve image specificity.  I would at least move the TV rack away from that position.

The picture doesn't show it well, but the speaker front extends just past the front of the TV/Stereo rack.

I plan to get something shorter and less deep in the future, though.