What audio system do you have, or plan on getting?

Started by Bonehelm, May 24, 2007, 08:52:55 AM

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Todd

#920
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 10, 2012, 05:01:48 AM@ Todd - I wouldn't say that Vienna Acoustics Bach are warm.



I use Naim gear, which is not exactly known for being excessively warm.  The speakers were warm.  They were good, just not as good as Josephs, or now Salks.  Third party measurements of VA speakers show that other models are warm.  That's one of the traits retailers have used to sell them.  You're the first person I've come across who has said they are not warm.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

The new erato

I have the Beethovens (the former model, not he last "grand") in my living room (what I've shown above is from my listening room) and they are definitively in my experience relatively "warm", forgiving and musical, and not given to excesses of detailing (which in the long run often is tiring). Of course, it all runs down to what you match them with.

DavidRoss

Quote from: DavidW on September 09, 2012, 02:23:56 PM
I'm thinking about in the next few months buying new speakers.  My old ones were damaged, but still work.

Anyway I think that I'm willing to expand my budget.  I spent $300 on the pair of towers that I'm using.  I'm willing to make my budget $1000 this time around.  Whether it still be floor standing or bookshelfs + speaker stands, what do you all recommend?

If you have advice about auditioning speakers, please provide that as well.

I'm looking for neutral with a great sound stage for a medium sized (apartment sized) living room.

Any thoughts?
$1000 isn't much for speakers but you can get satisfying sound at that price. Definitely check out Monitor's RS6, if it's still being made. Great value leaders in affordable loudspeakers have long been the Canadian companies with government subsidized R&D, particularly PSB, Paradigm, & Mirage. I'd suggest checking out their offerings in your price range.

When I'm auditioning equipment, I used to take a selection of LPs with a variety of music that I knew well. That became a small stack of CDs. Now I burn a CD with tracks such as solo piano, percussive jazz, string quartet, sultry female voice, opera, orchestral...you get the point. I train my ears to focus on particular aspects of each track--the crispness and shimmer of a jazz drummer's cymbal, sibilance of vocals and "bloom" around the voice, soundstaging of the orchestra and jazz combo, clarity and detail of multiple instruments, and perhaps most important, does it sound like music? Does the piano sound like a real piano, the bass like a bass? (If you don't know, best get to some live performances or you won't have a meaningful standard of reference.)

Re. soundstage -- if that's most important, you might be pleasantly surprised at the way a good pair of small bookshelf speakers can disappear when properly set up.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

The new erato

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 10, 2012, 06:08:50 AM

Re. soundstage -- if that's most important, you might be pleasantly surprised at the way a good pair of small bookshelf speakers can disappear when properly set up.
definitely agree. While lacking some bass and being slightly limites in dynamics, in a reasonably sized room a par of two way small speakers can do some things surprisingly right, e.g. midtone realism (most important) and imaging - both extremely important for realistic music reproduction. I have a pair of small Ushers (int the 1000 USD class) in my seaside cabin, and on some material they are wonderfully realistic.   

DavidRoss

Quote from: The new erato on September 10, 2012, 06:16:46 AM
definitely agree. While lacking some bass and being slightly limites in dynamics, in a reasonably sized room a par of two way small speakers can do some things surprisingly right, e.g. midtone realism (most important) and imaging - both extremely important for realistic music reproduction. I have a pair of small Ushers (int the 1000 USD class) in my seaside cabin, and on some material they are wonderfully realistic.   
I had a pair of Rogers LS3/5a speakers back around the time DaveW was born. God only knows where they ended up during my misspent youth. Not much bottom end but beautifully open and the soundstage was incredible (listened mostly to jazz and rock back then). I'm not even sure if my current Gallo Reference 3.1s are as good at imaging as they were!
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

bigshot

#925
Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 10, 2012, 05:01:48 AM
Amplifiers, players, loudspeakers, cables, the room, and even the AC matter a lot. Equalization? :o I want to hear the exact information on the audio support whether it's a vinyl, a CD/DVD-A/SACD or a hi-res file. This is what fidelity is all about. I don't want to hear a pumped up bass, a lowered treble... Just the recording itself. True hi-fi components, audiophile grade components don't have any switches for bass, treble of mids. This is also valid for software. Experience depends strictly upon the best system you've heard (quality/price wise). You know how they say: you can only get better if your opponent betters you.

You don't understand the purpose of equalization at all. It isn't to "pump up bass". It's to balance frequencies to perfect neutrality. When you put a speaker into a room, no matter what speaker, its frequency response changes dramatically. Every individual speaker and room combination creates its own particular alteration to the sound. The way you return the sound to its correct balance is through room treatment and equalization.

I've supervised recording, editing and mixing for TV and CD release as part of my job, and I've worked in dozens of sound studios. Every single one of them had a head engineer whose job it was to calibrate the equipment and equalize the output of the studio monitors to a completely balanced frequency response. That way, if you start a project at one studio and take it to another studio to finish, it will sound EXACTLY the same. If you want to hear what they hear in the studio, you have to calibrate your system to a balanced response to match theirs.

I've been working in audio and video for over thirty years, and I can tell you that a lot of the "common knowledge" among audiophiles is totally wrong. It's misconceptions based on old ideas dragged over from the analogue era mixed with snake oil peddled by high end audio dealers. If you understand the science of how sound works and go from there, keeping your focus on the Established thresholds of human perception, you'll get a lot further towards the goal of perfect sound than if you put yourself in the hands of people who want to sell you something.

Getting fantastic sound doesn't require a lot of money. In fact, except for speakers and headphones, there's very little corellation between cost and quality. It's possible to put together a fantastic system on a budget. You just need to put your money where it matters, and not spend a lot on things like high end CD players where even a $150 Sony bluray player performs to the exact same specs as the most expensive audiophile player.

I know quite a bit about sound reproduction and I'm happy to share if you're interested.

petrarch

Quote from: bigshot on September 10, 2012, 08:38:26 AM
I've supervised recording, editing and mixing for TV and CD release as part of my job, and I've worked in dozens of sound studios. Every single one of them had a head engineer whose job it was to calibrate the equipment and equalize the output of the studio monitors to a completely balanced frequency response. That way, if you start a project at one studio and take it to another studio to finish, it will sound EXACTLY the same. If you want to hear what they hear in the studio, you have to calibrate your system to a balanced response to match theirs.

It is worth noting that room treatment is by far the better option. Equalization can indeed provide a neutral and balanced response but it is quite dependent on the listening/measurement position, which means you will have to be in that exact position to enjoy that response.

Of course, for listening at home equalization is a reasonable compromise, since it avoids littering the room with perhaps ugly absorption or diffusion panels. In fact, a number of high-end speaker manufacturers provide gain controls in the speakers for this purpose, although they aren't typically as flexible as a proper outboard equalizer--it's more of a capability for coarse speaker-to-room tuning and avoid major resonances.
//p
The music collection.
The hi-fi system: Esoteric X-03SE -> Pathos Logos -> Analysis Audio Amphitryon.
A view of the whole

bigshot

#927
Room treatment and equalization are two different things. One isn't a replacement for the other. When you're starting a speaker installation you deal with all the room issues. When you've done that to the best of your ability, you equalize to flatten it all out to a balanced response. Room treatment is about eliminating reflections and equalization is about balancing the overall response. They go hand in hand, and one affects the effectiveness of the other.

As you say, there are compromises to be made in a space that one also lives in. For instance, while a studio can focus all of its sound on the mixing board, a home stereo has to sound reasonably good from several positions in the room so the whole family can listen, not just the occupant of one chair in the sweet spot. Also, accomodation has to be made for furniture and things wives care an awful lot about. Few people have the freedom to totally design the whole space around listening.

There are simple things you can do though without covering the room in sound diffuser panels. Speaer position is important. They should be at least 1/5 into the room. Not pressed up against the wall. The two mains should never be more than 8 feet apart, unless you have a center channel to bridge the gap. Large windows and sliding glass doors should be covered with curtains. The floor plan should be open, with room for the bass to spread out through the room along the floor. And the main midrange speakers should be ear height, not higher or lower. If you have a 5:1 setup, the level balance between the six speakers is critical to creating a three dimensional soundstage.

Todd

Quote from: bigshot on September 10, 2012, 09:13:02 AMSpeaker position is important. They should be at least 1/5 into the room. Not pressed up against the wall.



Generally yes, but there are some speakers designed for boundary placement. 
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

DavidW

Thanks everyone for the advise so far.  I shall have to make a trip or several to audition speakers.  I'm nearby a few large cities so there should be plenty of possibilities.  As far as well known recordings that I can latch on to specific details I think that a couple of favorites Bernstein/VPO Mahler 5 and the Beatles' White Album should do nicely.  All of you are also giving me brands to look into, which is much better than where I started from. :)

bigshot

One very important tip. In the listening room of the retail store you go to, have the salesman show you how to work the switcher. Don't let him control it. Twice I've caught salesmen with their back to the equipment and their hands behind their back surrepticiously reach to turn the bass up to make me like one speaker over another. You wouldn't believe how pissy they get when you call them on this sort of thing.

johndoe21ro

If I have to repeat myself, no problem. Pro gear and audiophile gear are different things. Audiophile gear has no balance for bass, mids and highs. There are some exceptions but they are extremely few. Usually loudspeakers have this kind of buttons and knobs - many have time alignment settings. And how do you ''equalize to flatten it all out to a balanced response''. By ear? It's the wrong way to do it, my friend.

@ Todd - I've listened to 2 systems with Naim gear. One with Naim Supernait + Arcam CD37 + Naim DAC + Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M + Naim NAC A5 and the second one with Naim Nait 5i + Slim Devices Squeezebox + Cabasse MT30 Jersey/Epos M12.2 + Naim NAC A5. For me Naim was pretty mellow and warm. Total lack of dynamics (Mahler, Brukner, Beethoven, etc.), laid back, hardly rezolute, lack of speed and prat. If for an 8ohm loudspeaker things might be acceptable, stuff goes completely wrong on 6 and 4 ohms impedance loudspeakers. The lack of power is chronical. I've listened to Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Concert Grand, Mozart Grand Symphony Edition and Bach Grand. I couldn't say VA are cold and/or analytical but I would definitely not call them warm. Maybe with a tube amplifier... :D
I'll try to limit my opinions - don't want to offend or contradict anybody too much.


bigshot

Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 10, 2012, 10:16:46 AMhow do you ''equalize to flatten it all out to a balanced response''.

Using two octave sweeps from a signal generator, starting at the low end working up the range, increasing the volume a bit for each pass from 20 to 20.

If you're interested in more details about how this is done, I'd be happy to share.

Worrying about the noise from a simple tone control pot at the expense of being able to balance the sound is patently absurd. An unequalized stereo system with no tone controls is like a race car without a steering wheel. High end audio is full of absurdities like that.

DavidRoss

Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 10, 2012, 10:16:46 AM
I'll try to limit my opinions - don't want to offend or contradict anybody too much.
Na, don't worry about it. Some folks just get offended by any opinions that aren't exactly identical with their own. And then, because they feel offended, think that you offended them, thus giving them license to be intentionally offensive in return.

Differing opinions not only make horse races but are the means of opening our minds, improving our understanding, and even learning things we didn't know (often radically different from what we thought we knew but only believed).

Of course, once people demonstrate that they're determined not to learn anything and are not interested in exchanging opinions but only in puffing up their own egos by demonizing people who think differently, then you know it's just a waste of time and energy to try to have a dialogue with them. Remember that some folks just can't tolerate diversity of opinion...and research suggests that this is not a moral issue. These people don't choose to be this way; it's a psychological condition. Rather than judging them or trying to "make" them see sense (which only stiffens their resistance), the best thing we can do is to feel compassion for their handicap and move on to where we can be helpful.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Todd

Quote from: johndoe21ro on September 10, 2012, 10:16:46 AM@ Todd - I've listened to 2 systems with Naim gear.



I didn't hear the systems you heard, but the traits you use to describe Naim are atypical.  I've not heard Cabasse speakers, but Naim paired with Sonus Faber doesn't produce the sound you describe in my experience.  (I've owned Sonus Fabers as well).  The room(s) no doubt had a large impact.  As to VA not being warm, again, most people describe them as warm.  Third party frequency plot measurements show that some models are warm by design (ie, a bump in mid bass, a depression in low treble, measured anechoically or "quasi"-anechoically), though the Schoenberg and Klimt series speakers appear to be voiced differently.  In the context of my system, when I switched from VAs to Joseph Audio, the improvement in clarity, etc was immediate and obvious.  The VAs were too warm in comparison, as well as not particularly detailed.  Of course, I tend to prefer metal main drivers, and I use Naim separates, where the lack of power you mention has never been a problem.  Of course, it wasn't a problem when I used the 30 watt Nait 5 to drive the VA Bachs.  I'd hit peaks that had to be in the 95 dB range (based on subsequent listening and measurements).  I can drive my current speakers to 107 dB peaks no problem (which I did one time as a test, and will not do again; I want to keep my hearing), and they are 6 Ohm.   

Whenever I hear or read people mention a lack of power with any amplifier, I'm always curious just how loud they listen, and how large the room is.  Perhaps I just listen quietly, but I listen at a volume with peaks usually in the 80-85 dB range.  (I tend to listen a bit louder with non classical recordings.)  At those volumes, very little power is needed, and even in dynamic passages little power is needed, and then only briefly.  My room is definitely not big, so that helps, but running out of power requires playing pretty loud in a pretty good sized room.
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

bigshot

I was fine with relatively low power and a single set of full range speakers until I moved and set up my listening room. The system that sounded great in a large apartment sounded anaemic in a large room with high ceilings. The size of the room is most of the reason for needing more power and more and bigger speakers.

Robert

Quote from: bigshot on September 10, 2012, 11:15:07 AM
I was fine with relatively low power and a single set of full range speakers until I moved and set up my listening room. The system that sounded great in a large apartment sounded anaemic in a large room with high ceilings. The size of the room is most of the reason for needing more power and more and bigger speakers.
Many years ago I had a pre-war apartment in New York City.  I had a Mac amp. KLH 9's. But, to get things right I had a Soundcraftsman Eq and a Velodyne woof....It took awhile but when I finally nailed it, it was fabulous.....

bigshot

The more speakers in a system, the harder it is to balance, but oh! The sound!

lisa needs braces

So I'm considering buying some book shelf speakers for my PC. These were recommended, as they have a built in amplifier:

http://www.amazon.com/Audioengine-A5-Black-Powered-Speaker/dp/B000OABTPQ

Supposing I eschew this and opt for actual bookshelf speakers + amplifier, what would you guys for a total max budget of $1k?


bigshot

I tend to like Yamaha receivers. You don't need to spend a lot to get a good one. Spend the money you save on speakers. I have a nice set of Klipsch bookshelves, but speakers are a personal taste. Best to audition them before buying.