Modern Complexity

[not edward]

While he's a remarkable composer, I'd say that the mature Scelsi is the very antithesis of complexity.

This cracking disc is a great introduction: one piece (La nascita del verbo) that shows where he came from, one piece (Quattro pezzi) showing the arrival of his mature style, and one mature masterpiece (Uaxuctum).

[karlhenning]

Remind me of that one come autumn, Edward!

[bhodges]

Basically I'm very interested in highly complex, intricate, thorny and technical music. That pretty much excludes anything written before 1900. I'm solely interested in modern works, post 1900 that is. I'm not interested in melody or emotion so please keep that in mind.

You pose an interesting challenge to this group!  Many of the recommendations I'd agree with: Ferneyhough, of course, and Finnissy and Barrett (the latter I'm not that familiar with).  Scelsi is marvelous, but as edward notes, "complexity" isn't really what he's about.  Still, if you haven't experienced his unique world, definitely carve out some time to do so.

So here's one that might be a bit off the radar, who happens to be an acquaintance: Jason Eckardt, who co-directs Ensemble 21 here in New York.  The group scored a major triumph a couple of years ago by presenting the United States premiere of Ferneyhough's evening-length cycle, Carceri d'Invenzione.  Anyway, if it's very complex you want, Jason might interest you.  His compositions page has MP3s you can sample:

Music of Jason Eckardt

--Bruce

[matticus]

For more recent/less known music in the complexity vein, have a listen to James Saunders, Klaus K Hubler, Claus-Steffen Mahnkopf, Aaron Cassidy, Evan Johnson, Wieland Hoban, and Frank Cox.

[Guido]

Basically I'm very interested in highly complex, intricate, thorny and technical music... I'm solely interested in modern works, post 1900 that is. I'm not interested in melody or emotion so please keep that in mind.

LOL!

What are you doing listening to Berg, Messiaen, Dutilleux, Ives, Lutoslawski, Schoenberg, Carter, Penderecki etc. then?! This is some of the most emotional music I know! Messiaen, Berg and Ives almost always have strong melodies...

[greg]

LOL!

What are you doing listening to Berg, Messiaen, Dutilleux, Ives, Lutoslawski, Schoenberg, Carter, Penderecki etc. then?! This is some of the most emotional music I know! Messiaen, Berg and Ives almost always have strong melodies...

makes me laugh, too.
especially Berg and Penderecki, over-the-top expressionism, totally based on emotions and less on theory.

[PetroHead]

I've heard a Scelsi quite a lot. Remarkable composer indeed.

The New Complexity school is one of my absolute favorites and I'm pretty well versed in their works. I am trying to locate works by Cassidy and Cox but they haven't been recorded I believe. Hoban writes very good music and I have had the pleasure of corresponding with him whenever we meet online. Eckardt's Out of Chaos is a cracker of a CD and so is his Ensemble 21.

Matticus has given some of the more pertinent examples. Although I have heard all of the composers he has listed it is more of that which I'm seeking, especially someone like Claus-Steffen Mahnkopf. So please recommend some more.

As for melody and emotion, I'm mainly talking from the perspective of the general audience. You talk about early Penderecki or Ives and most people start pouting. In contrast talk about Mozart and Vivaldi and they'll start gushing about the soulful melody and high dose of emotion. Personally I have never felt music to convey any emotion as such. In most of the music I hear I only pause and think 'Man that must be hard to play'

But I do agree that composers like Messiaen, Dutilleux and Berg can be high on emotion and  have tuneful melodies. I listed them only to give you guys a general feel for what I have already listened to.

Keep the recommendations coming folks and thanks a bunch.

[Guido]

You talk about early Penderecki or Ives and most people start pouting. In contrast talk about Mozart and Vivaldi and they'll start gushing about the soulful melody and high dose of emotion.

Perhaps you should give us a bit more credit! Most of us here are at least slightly educated, even those who don't like 20th century music.

[pjme]

 I suppose that most composers I mentioned earlier are too soft for you ( but give Brewaeys a try - in symphony nr 1 he uses a large gastank in the percussionsection) . Goethals wrote some very,very thorny music, but I'm afraid none of his largescale works is currently recorded.

I've tried to sing the merits of dutch composer Mathijs Vermeulen before. He is ( a little bit like Ives or Varèse or Langgaard) an outsider. His music is not "avant gardistic" , but some of his works are very tough.
Start with symphony nr 5 ,"Les lendemains chantant" - a 3 movement, 45 mins. colossus for large orchestra ( ca 1942-1944). He describes it as : only movement of singing, expressive factors & elements. - no drama, no poetry, no help from non-musical influences.

Donemus has issued an almost complete survey of both chamber and orchestral music.

Symfonieën
Symphonie No. 1, Symphonia Carminum (1912-1914)
Symphonie No. 2, Prélude à la nouvelle journée (1920)
Symphonie No. 3, Thrène et Péan (1921)
Symphonie No. 4, Les Victoires (1941)
Symphonie No. 5, Les lendemains chantants (1945)
Symphonie No. 6, Les minutes heureuses (1958)
Symphonie No. 7, Dithyrambes pour les temps à venir (1965)
Overige werken
On ne passe pas, voor tenor en piano (1917)
Les filles du roi d'Espagne, voor mezzosopraan en piano (1917)
The soldier, voor bariton en piano (1917)
La veille, voor mezzosopraan en piano (1932: versie met orkest) (1917)
Sonate pour violoncelle et piano (1918)
Trio à cordes (strijktrio) (1923)
Sonate pour piano et violon (1925)
De Vliegende Hollander, voor orkest (1930)
Deuxième sonate pour piano et violoncelle (1938)
Trois salutations à notre dame, voor mezzosopraan en piano (1941)
Le balcon, voor mezzosopraan of tenor en piano (1944)
Préludes des origines, voor bariton en piano (1959)
Quatuor à cordes (strijkkwartet) (1961)
Trois chants d'amour, voor mezzosopraan en piano (1962)

[sonic1]

pjme did you have another handle before? Whoever you are, you have some really great recs. I have been enjoying this thread.

[matticus]

I am trying to locate works by Cassidy and Cox but they haven't been recorded I believe.

...

Matticus has given some of the more pertinent examples. Although I have heard all of the composers he has listed it is more of that which I'm seeking, especially someone like Claus-Steffen Mahnkopf.

If you email Aaron I'm sure he'll be happy to hook you up; I think quite a lot of his stuff is recorded. The green is either was uploaded to http://cacophonous.org/archives/2006/09/aaron_cassidy_-.html last year. Frank Cox has an email address too and I'm sure it'd be worth trying the same with him -- do let me know how you get on if you do contact him.

To be honest I'm running out of suggestions now... you could try looking into Mark R Taylor, Matt Shlomowitz, Dominik Karski, Joanna Bailie, Bryn Harrison, David Brynjar Franzson (has a great website), Erik Ulman, Richard Emsley, ... but none of these people are commercially recorded as far as I know (except Emsley) and you may have to do some hunting down.

[pjme]

pjme did you have another handle before? Whoever you are, you have some really great recs. I have been enjoying this thread.

thanks, Sonic 1 .
Well as most musiclovers I enjoy most of "the standards" - from Monteverdi & Palestrina , via Schütz & Bach to Brahms ,Beethoven , Bartok, Mahler, Schönberg, Webern....( I never got used to Bruckner and Wagner( and I do realise their very great masters), silly belcanto, jolly French woodwindtrios from the 1930-ies , neverending -all-too-suave oratorios from the 19th century (there are exceptions, I know),etc etc we all have our likes and dislikes)
for many years now, I have been searching and try -in a modest way- to keep up with what is going on. There are still some great discoveries to be made. I enjoy music from the late 19th -early 20th century : Janacek, Milhaud, Martinu, Martin, Honegger,Harris,Copland....
the very craggy & complex  music mentioned in this thread can be very exiting in the concerthall ,possibly armed with a score. Noise & repetitive music gets boring very quickly - alas.
But then I'm not afraid of music and will sit patiently through most concerts....

Peter
And the ocean is very wide ....some music does not travel at all...Why? Je ne sais pas.

[PetroHead]

Perhaps you should give us a bit more credit! Most of us here are at least slightly educated, even those who don't like 20th century music.

Sorry I didn't mean to sound condescending. My apologies.

Thanks for the recommendations everyone. Keep adding to the list.

[Guido]

Didn't mean that at all, just informing you that you might be pleasantly surprised at some of the tastes expressed here!

[jochanaan]

On our dear Lis' recommendation I recently bought a DVD of the opera "Rèves d'un Marco Polo" by Claude Vivier.  Amazing!  I've also got a very interesting CD of chamber music by Nikos Skalkottas.

I'm working up a sonata for oboe and piano by Richard Rodney Bennett.  I don't know anything else by this composer, but the oboe sonata is challenging and wonderful!

I suppose you've checked out Conlon Nancarrow's music for player piano?

And one unexpected place to find complexity and near-atonality is in Shostakovich's Fourteenth Symphony.

[PetroHead]

Nancarrow's studies are the bomb!

I'll check out the rest of the people you mentioned. Thanks

[jochanaan]

You're welcome.

[Ubloobideega]

I'm into evil, complex music. It feelz good.

[jochanaan]

Are you saying that all "good" music is simple?

[Ubloobideega]

Are you saying that all "good" music is simple?

ugggh you humans are so confusing sometimes