Bach Chamber and Instrumental music

[aukhawk]

@aukhawk: I think it doesn't really matter if one chooses the Partitas, French or English suites as representative. I personally think the partitas are the best and also quite accessible (if maybe not as easy to get as some of the French suites) and find the English still a little "dry" after 15 years or so ...

Oh I completely agree with that summary.  It's probably just that, after the Brandenburgs and alongside the Cello Suites, the French Suites were my personal 'in' to Bach.

[Wakefield]

Anyway, I do not think newcomers need to be pampered.  
[...]
I also agree that it can be as bad or worse if huge Bach-nerds (similarly for some other composers) choose pieces they are nuts about and cannot comprehend that they are tough for an inexperienced listener.

I fully agree with your first statement ("newcomers don't need be pampered") and a little bit less with the second one... I'm confident that truth just sounds different. Even if we don't immediately recognise it during the first encounter.

http://www.youtube.com/v/gkEQ_bvbny4

[bioluminescentsquid]

Might be resurrecting a thread from 2 years ago, but how do people think of this new release?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByrJDuGMpnw

[Mandryka]

Might be resurrecting a thread from 2 years ago, but how do people think of this new release?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByrJDuGMpnw

It's now on spotify so you can hear for yourself,  I listened to 1014 and 1019. I thought it favoured the violin in balance, and the interpretation was was more dazzling than expressive,  with no  sense of rapport between the two players, 1019 solo harpsichord has lashings of brio. 

[bioluminescentsquid]

It's now on spotify so you can hear for yourself,  I listened to 1014 and 1019. I thought it favoured the violin in balance, and the interpretation was was more dazzling than expressive,  with no  sense of rapport between the two players, 1019 solo harpsichord has lashings of brio.

Ha, I had almost exactly those impressions when I listened to this. I was quite impressed by the sample they put up (Last movement of the 3rd sonata), but the rest wasn't as beautiful. The way Zanisi plays reminds me a lot of Kuijken, but is a hit-or-miss thing. Nice harpsichord, though (made by keith Hill).

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Been crazy about this recording for years. Is anybody like me?

[Mandryka]

This is Paolo Pandolfo's second recording of the gamba sonatas, with Markus Hünninger.

Pandolfo's has developed a way of articulating which encapsulates the notes, rather like a harpsichord in fact - that's the best way I can think of to describe it, I know if anyone hears it they'll see what I'm getting at.

The result in ensemble is a sound which is very "complicit", the two instruments fit each other like hand and glove. That complicity is borne out in the interpretations, which are fresh and imbued with a sense of the two musicians responding to each other.

The adagio of the G minor is particularly memorable in this respect: it's interesting to contrast what they do there with Wieland Kuijken/Leonhardt. The latter more "singing forth", and certainly the rapport between the two parts is very different. I'd like to spend more time with both versions to really get to grips with the differences.

[milk]

This is Paolo Pandolfo's second recording of the gamba sonatas, with Markus Hünninger.

Pandolfo's has developed a way of articulating which encapsulates the notes, rather like a harpsichord in fact - that's the best way I can think of to describe it, I know if anyone hears it they'll see what I'm getting at.

The result in ensemble is a sound which is very "complicit", the two instruments fit each other like hand and glove. That complicity is borne out in the interpretations, which are fresh and imbued with a sense of the two musicians responding to each other.

The adagio of the G minor is particularly memorable in this respect: it's interesting to contrast what they do there with Wieland Kuijken/Leonhardt. The latter more "singing forth", and certainly the rapport between the two parts is very different. I'd like to spend more time with both versions to really get to grips with the differences.

Hand in glove is right. Magical!

[Mandryka]

Most of Bach's accompanied violin sonatas [and I assume he's talking about 1014-1019] -- distinct from the six great solo sonatas and partitas -- pair the instrument with harpsichord alone, and cast the violin in a supporting role.

This comment about the violin being in a supporting roll (which I thought was interesting) came to mind yesterday, when I listened to the first time to Tuma and Zenaty here, a valuable set of performances which do quite often sound like harpsichord sonatas with violin in accompaniment.



Anyway I post this to see if anyone has any thoughts about the matter.

[Josquin13]

Might be resurrecting a thread from 2 years ago, but how do people think of this new release?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByrJDuGMpnw

The harpsichord sounds like it has been placed too far into the background for there to be any real dialogue between the two instruments (or the violin is too closely miked).  It sounds like impressive violin playing though.  Arcana is usually a good label for sound quality, so I wonder if the You Tube clip brings out this recording issue more than the CDs?

If you're looking for a fine digital set on period instruments, my two current favorites are from Emlyn Nagai and Peter Watchorn, and Pablo Valetti & Celine Frisch (of Cafe Zimmermann).  The balances on both are exceptional.   (I've heard many recordings of this music, but I've yet to get to the François Fernandez, and Chiara Banchini sets.  Huggett and Koopman are good too--but probably need to be remastered.  As for Stefano Montanari & Christophe Rousset, I've found the sound recording to be too harsh: the violin tone can be grating, which took away from my enjoyment of the otherwise fine playing).

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[milk]

[milk]

I recall Donald Satz's conclusion way back when that Elizabeth Blumenstock & John Butt had on of the best sets (at that time).

[Mandryka]

Agsteribbe and Neve play the harpsichord and violin sonatas. Equality of the two instruments is achieved through the way that both instruments are allowed to contribute to the poetry of the whole. Imaginative expressively, chockablock with new ideas. All sounds quite natural to me too.

[Mandryka]

The music is called " Sei Suonate a Cembalo certato è Violino Solo, col Basso per Viola da Gamba accompagnato se piace. "

Does that "certato" mean that the keyboard has the lead role, the violin a secondary one?

What recordings do you know which play the music à Cembalo certato è Violino Solo?

Is there any precedent for this relationship - ie other sonatas à cembalo certato è violino solo?

[prémont]

The music is called " Sei Suonate a Cembalo certato è Violino Solo, col Basso per Viola da Gamba accompagnato se piace. "

Does that "certato" mean that the keyboard has the lead role, the violin a secondary one?

What recordings do you know what play the music a Cembalo certato è Violino Solo

In this page the explanation of certato is that the harpsichord parts are written out in the full:

https://voicesofmusic.org/bachviolin.html

So I do not think the term differs much from cembalo obligato - in contrast to cembalo continuo.

In Bach's sonatas the two musicians are equal, just in the same way as the parts are equal in the organ triosonatas.

Most of the existing recordings unfortunately favor the violin. As I wrote some years ago I think Bach had a violin/organ sound in his mind for these pieces, which all except no. 6 are written in sonata di chiesa style. This would create a better balance.

[Mandryka]

Thanks, I got the idea that the keyboard leads the partnership from Johan van Veen's review of Dantone/Mutter, It struck me as strange, hence the question.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/July07/Bach_Mullova_ONYX4020.htm#ixzz57U09eG4Z

It certainly is hard to make the parts sound equally prominent in the texture with a harpsichord for keyboard.

[Mandryka]

Oh, I'll just mention that I've been listening with more pleasure than before to Perkola/ Häkkinen play the gamba sonatas.

[prémont]

Oh, I'll just mention that I've been listening with more pleasure than before to Perkola/ Häkkinen play the gamba sonatas.

It is on my wishlist. I suppose, Häkkinen uses his 16' harpsichord.

[Mandryka]

In this page the explanation of certato is that the harpsichord parts are written out in the full:

https://voicesofmusic.org/bachviolin.html

So I do not think the term differs much from cembalo obligato - in contrast to cembalo continuo.

In Bach's sonatas the two musicians are equal, just in the same way as the parts are equal in the organ triosonatas.

Most of the existing recordings unfortunately favor the violin. As I wrote some years ago I think Bach had a violin/organ sound in his mind for these pieces, which all except no. 6 are written in sonata di chiesa style. This would create a better balance.

Do you also think that the gamba sonatas work better for the balances with an organ?

I can see that Jochen Brusch - Sven-Ingvart Mikkelsen play 1019 - I'm curious to hear the recording just because of Mikkelsen, but I can't find it for sale anywhere - if anyone sees it at an affordable price, please let me know.

It is on my wishlist. I suppose, Häkkinen uses his 16' harpsichord.

Of course





.

[Mandryka]

These are the notes on the 2017 Montero/Boccaccio recording of the gamba sonatas, which I thought were really revelatory performnces.

Patxi Montero and Daniele Boccaccio have already recorded for Brilliant Classics the three sonatas composed by J.S. Bach around 1720, when the viola da gamba was already an archaic instrument, superseded by string bass variants such as the cello and double-bass, for their greater volume, projection and reliable tuning. However, the gamba's multiple strings and barrelled sound-box gave it a unique, speaking quality that continued to fascinate composers; long after its high noon as part of a viol consort in 17th-century chamber music, Bach wrote not only these sonatas for the instrument but obbligato parts in various cantatas and at the expressive crux-points of his John and Matthew- Passions.

The earlier recording by Montero and Boccaccio is available within the latest version of the Complete Bach Edition; for this new recording, however, the accompanying instrument is not the usual harpsichord but a church organ, in the church of S. Antonio Abate, Padova, Italy. Such an experiment in pairing the softly spoken timbre of the gamba with a sustained keyboard instrument has been undertaken before in this music, in a recording with accordion, but not with an organ.

'The result we obtained while recording these sonatas was truly amazing,' remark Montero and Boccaccio. 'We tried to merge the organ's own colours with the characteristic sound of the viola da gamba, changing the stops settings according to the styles of the movements. Dissonances came out in a more obvious way, and this greatly affected our tempo choices. The church's acoustics and the exuberance of the organ's sound led us to create a more concrete and well-supported sound.'

In this new recording of the magnificent (and still undervalued) sonatas for viola da gamba by Bach the keyboard is an organ, a german school Rückpositiv. The use of the organ instead of the harpsichord has changed the interpretation of the musician to a large extent: the sustained sound of the organ tones (contrary to the quickly decaying sound of the harpsichord) heightens the tension of the harmonics, especially the dissonances. The length of the notes is therefore often shortened, taking into account the reverberant acoustics of the church, which also affected the tempo choices. In short, this interpretation is completely different from the harpsichord version, shedding a new light on these masterpieces by Bach, who himself was never averse to using different instruments for his works.
Patxi Montero is one of the foremost viola da gamba players of this moment, he frequently collaborates with Early Music groups such as Concerto Italiano, Il Giardino Armonico, Zefiro, Europa Galante and conductors Rinaldo Alessandrini, Diego Fasolis and Fabio Biondi. Daniele Boccaccio already made a highly acclaimed recording for Brilliant Classics of his own organ arrangements of Bach's violin concertos (BC94829).
Excellent liner notes written by the musicians.

The accordion recording they refer to is with viola, the artists are Asbjørn Nørgaard and Andreas Borregaard, my impression is that it's exuberant,




BWV 1027 is played with viola and accordion by Nobuko Imai and Mei Miki, I'm very keen on Imai, but I wouldn't go as far as to actually recommend this CD to anyone!