Bach Chamber and Instrumental music

Started by Que, May 24, 2007, 11:21:14 PM

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premont

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 27, 2009, 03:57:48 AM
The more noticeable changes in the last recording are two: the sonatas with basso continuo were recorded without violoncello or viola da gamba, and Kuijken opts for more alert tempi in this case. IMO certain loss of intimacy is the consequence of this features.

The sound is fine in both of them, although in the second one is rather more "analityc".

All in all, I even prefer the DHM recording, although I can't obtain too much information from the booklet in japenese.  :)

Even I own the DHM recording. Seems as if I can stay away from the Accent without missing anything important.
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FideLeo

#141
Quote from: premont on April 27, 2009, 09:19:04 AM
Even I own the DHM recording. Seems as if I can stay away from the Accent without missing anything important.

Yup.  I am getting his GPT Sonate Metodiche instead.
HIP for all and all for HIP! Harpsichord for Bach, fortepiano for Beethoven and pianoforte for Brahms!

Antoine Marchand

#142
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 18, 2009, 07:57:06 PM
Playing the new set of Bach flute sonatas performed by Jed Wentz (Brilliant, 2 CDs).

This set just includes the flute sonatas currently considered authentic and the Partita BWV 1013. Therefore, it excludes the sonatas BWV 1031 and 1033 and replace them for two trio sonatas for two instruments (BWV 1038 and 1039).

Surprisingly, this double-CD also includes the Musical Offering (BWV 1079), although it is not announced in the title.

Wentz is a virtuoso, who privileges fast and sometimes whimsical tempi, I'd say in "muscular", fibrous versions. IMO, these versions are rather different (even totally opposite) to the warm and fragile performances by Stephen Preston on Brilliant (licensed from CRD, UK).

Quote from: premont on August 19, 2009, 04:34:42 AM
Quite an understatement. Wentz´ theatrical and overloaded "empfindliche" style is IMO far removed from the world of this music, but belongs the music of a later generation.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 19, 2009, 06:47:55 AM
I suppose you are saying the same thing more directly, Premont.

BTW, what do you think about Stephen Preston? Some people (not my case) have problems with the sound quality of his flute sonatas in the Brilliant-Bach Edition.

Quote from: premont on August 19, 2009, 03:32:34 PM
I do not find any reason to complain about the sound quality, neither about the recording as such nor the soft, sometimes almost recorder-like sound of Prestons traverso. And I like his tempi and phrasing very much. Some ( I can imagine Wentz among others) may find him boring, but in these ears his playing draws full attention to the music, and this is what matters to me.

I totally agree about Preston, Premont: a very natural, warm and delicate performance.

During the past weekend I was reading the liner notes written by Wentz for his new recording of the flute sonatas. I was especially interested in the following paragraph: "From artefacts we move on facts, which, of course, are the sources consulted in preparing such an undertaking: Kirnberger for tempi and the expression of the metre signs, Mattheson on basso continuo, Kircher on the Passions, and Quantz on matters of technique, to name just a few. I shall say little of these important fact-givers here, simply because  anyone wishing to censure our performance style will not be deterred by the mere mention of historical sources, no matter how plentiful or illustrious they might be. Frankly, if a critic doesn't like rubato, full-voiced continuo realizations or fast tempi, no amount of argumentation from 18th-century writers will effect a revolution in his taste: words in paper speak to the intellect, the heart has its own rules. After 25 years in this business, I have lost the taste for belabouring points of taste. What I have done must speak for itself".    

IMO, Wentz is right at least in one aspect: it's deeply disappointing to discuss about mere issues of taste. But I think that some strange things happen in the mind of some musicians, when they come in the studio. Tastes are tastes, it's right. But in what sense, for example, the first movement of the Sonata in B minor BWV 1030 is an Andante when is played by Wentz in this recording. I have not read Kirnberger, but I am not prepared to accept a rampant tempo like that, when the movement was clearly marked Andante by Bach (from the Italian "to walk"), in a time when horses and carriages were the major expression of speed! Here an example of that movement to illustrate my point:



http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=8237808-7b3




premont

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 19, 2009, 09:46:19 PM

During the past weekend I was reading the liner notes written by Wentz for his new recording of the flute sonatas. I was especially interested in the following paragraph: "From artefacts we move on facts, which, of course, are the sources consulted in preparing such an undertaking: Kirnberger for tempi and the expression of the metre signs, Mattheson on basso continuo, Kircher on the Passions, and Quantz on matters of technique, to name just a few". ..

IMO, Wentz is right at least in one aspect: it's deeply disappointing to discuss about mere issues of taste.

Taste was rapidly changing - even then, and most of the sources which were published around or after Bach´s death reflect the taste of the later generation, and historical information was not their business.This is why the issue of taste (not your taste or mine of course, but the taste of the musicians of that age) is important.
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Antoine Marchand

#144
Quote from: premont on August 20, 2009, 02:54:56 AM
Taste was rapidly changing - even then, and most of the sources which were published around or after Bach´s death reflect the taste of the later generation, and historical information was not their business.This is why the issue of taste (not your taste or mine of course, but the taste of the musicians of that age) is important.

I agree. When I said it's a frustrating to discuss about matters of taste, I was referring to our personal and current tastes (as listeners, critics or musicians), not to the composer's taste or conception in music. Obviously, the composer's musical conception is the base of a HIP performance and musicians should subordinate their own "tastes" to the composer's intentions reflected for the sources, if they are searching that kind of HIP performance, especially observing the musical markings and indications of tempo. BTW, it's very impressive to see the fast changes produced in the musical conceptions during the second half of the XVIII century; although if we observe the philosophy, the politics or the economics of that time, the situation is not very different.

Antoine Marchand

Quote from: premont on November 22, 2009, 08:57:12 AM
... I am beginning more and more to appreciate musicians without towering ego´s.

I did read these words when I was listening to this supremely measured and non-egotistic version of the Musical Offering... Apparently it has not been mentioned here until now, which it is a shame for this great forum  :). Highly recommended:

J.S. Bach - Musikalisches Opfer BWV 1079
Masahiro Arita, transverse flute
Ryo Terakado, baroque violin
Natsumi Wakamatsu, baroque violin, baroque viola
Tetsuya Nakano, viola da gamba
Chiyoko Arita, harpsichord
Denon Records
Recording: December 15-18, 1993

:)

premont

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 22, 2009, 04:26:10 PM
I did read these words when I was listening to this supremely measured and non-egotistic version of the Musical Offering... Apparently it has not been mentioned here until now, which it is a shame for this great forum  :). Highly recommended:

Reminds me of the fact, that I have decided to acquire the violin S+P with Terakado.
His cello suites on violoncello da spalla are outstanding, and not completely self-effacing.

Not sure the Mus.Opf. is available PT. I did not get it in time.

I own Arita´s recording of Bach´s solo chamber music for traverso. Also a non-egoistic interpretation. Note, that Arita also is the traverso soloist on Andrew Manze´s Bach ouverture b-minor, released as a Brilliant Classics steal.
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Antoine Marchand

#147
Quote from: premont on November 23, 2009, 01:12:56 AM
Reminds me of the fact, that I have decided to acquire the violin S+P with Terakado.
His cello suites on violoncello da spalla are outstanding, and not completely self-effacing.

Not sure the Mus.Opf. is available PT. I did not get it in time.

I own Arita´s recording of Bach´s solo chamber music for traverso. Also a non-egoistic interpretation. Note, that Arita also is the traverso soloist on Andrew Manze´s Bach ouverture b-minor, released as a Brilliant Classics steal.

Yes, I bought those orchestral suites when I noticed that fact... And, I think, it was a fortunate decision because it is an excellent recording (now Brilliant Classics, but licensed by Denon).

Unfortunately those Denon discs are near to impossible to get in Occident, but in Japan they have been re-issued at very cheap prices. You can get the Musical Offering for US $11 on CDJapan and Terakado for US $24. Just shipping and handling costs are a bit expensive.  :)

premont

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2009, 02:35:04 AM
Unfortunately those Denon discs are near to impossible to get in Occident, but in Japan they have been re-issued at very cheap prices. You can get the Musical Offering for US $11 on CDJapan Just shipping and handling costs are a bit expensive.  :)

Thanks for the link. Musicalisches Opfer ordered from CDjapan just now. Other than the high shipping cost I have to pay tax et.c., which may amount to almost as much as the price of the CDs + shipping cost :o :o :o. This is why I prefer the European Amazon´s whenever possible, so the S + P ´s was orderd from Amazon.de. 
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Antoine Marchand

Quote from: premont on November 23, 2009, 03:41:21 AM
Thanks for the link. Musicalisches Opfer ordered from CDjapan just now. Other than the high shipping cost I have to pay tax et.c., which may amount to almost as much as the price of the CDs + shipping cost :o :o :o. This is why I prefer the European Amazon´s whenever possible, so the S + P ´s was orderd from Amazon.de.

That Musical Offering is worth its weight in gold, Premont! You won't regret this purchase. My only minor quibble about it, it is the slightly "bright" sound quality preferred by Denon and, apparently, by the Japanese market.

premont

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2009, 03:56:01 AM
My only minor quibble about it, it is the slightly "bright" sound quality preferred by Denon and, apparently, by the Japanese market.

Yes, I have experienced this from other Denon purchases. I prefer balanced sound of course, but given the choice between bright sound and the opposite, I prefer without doubt the bright sound.
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Que

All posts on the cello suites have been moved here: Bach's Cello Suites.

Q

Antoine Marchand

#152
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 09, 2010, 05:05:28 AM
The Trio Sonatas of Johann Sebastian Bach performed on a diverse collection of period instruments
Christa Rakich, organ & harpsichord
Dana Maiben, violin (Nicola Amati, 1658)
Wendy Rolfe, flute (Rod Cameron, after G.A. Rottenburgh)
Alice Robbins, 'cello and viola da gamba (Thomas Urquhart, and William Turner, respectively, after instruments from London c. 1680)
2 CDs
Loft Recordings


Disc 1

Prelude in b, BWV 544.1                                   
Christa Rakich, organ
Paul Fritts Opus 18 (2000), Pacific Lutheran University, Tacoma, WA

Sonata #1 in E-flat, BWV 525
Christa Rakich, organ
Taylor & Boody Opus 14 (1988), Clifton Forge Baptist Church, Clifton Forge, VA

Sonata #5 in C, BWV 529
Wendy Rolfe, flute
Alice Robbins, 'cello
Christa Rakich, harpsichord (Willard Martin Opus 106 after Blanchet)

Sonata # 3 in d, BWV 527
Christa Rakich, organ
John Brombaugh Opus 22 (1979), Christ Church, Tacoma, WA

Fugue in b minor, BWV 544.2                               
Christa Rakich, organ
Paul Fritts Opus 18 (2000), Pacific Lutheran University, Tacoma, WA

Total time: 53:41


Disc 2

Prelude in e, BWV 548.1
Christa Rakich, organ
C.B. Fisk Opus 56 (1971), Old West Church, Boston, MA

Sonata #6 in G, BWV 530                                         
Christa Rakich, organ
Richards-Fowkes Opus 1 (1991), St. Barnabas Church, Greenwich, CT

Sonata #4 in e, BWV 528
Dana Maiben, violin
Alice Robbins, viola da gamba
Christa Rakich, harpsichord
Willard Martin Opus 106 (1981) after Blanchet
Recorded May 23, 2000, St. Barnabas Church, Greenwich, CT

Sonata #2 in c, BWV 526
Christa Rakich, organ
Greg Harrold Opus 14 (1995), Residence of Alan Kay & Bonnie MacBird , Brentwood, CA

Fugue in e, BWV 548.2
Christa Rakich, organ
C.B. Fisk Opus 56 (1971), Old West Church, Boston, MA
   
Total time: 51:59


GOTHIC LABEL WEBSITE

Quote from: premont on February 09, 2010, 07:27:03 AM
Only two of the Triosonatas performed on other instruments than the organ and even in rather un-Bachian scorings, as it seems. But how do they play?

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 09, 2010, 08:28:44 AM
Yes, only BWV 529 and BWV 528 are performed on arrangements; but I don't see a particularly "un-Bachian" character in the scorings. BWV 529 is arranged for flute, harpsichord and cello, IMO three rather natural choices to replace the organ. Apparently, the choices for BWV 528 could seem a bit stranger, but are explained by Rakich: "The opening movement of Sonata IV in e is transcribed from the "Sinfonia" from Cantata 76. In the cantata, the gamba plays the part transcribed for the left hand. So it was natural to leave it, add a violin for the upper part, and assign continuo to the harpsichord. In the final movement, the gamba played the bass line with treble voices assigned to the violin and harpsichord. But when it came to the middle movement, a bit of rehearsal horseplay yielded a stunning possibility where the gamba plays the middle voice, and harpsichord the outer two".

All is played here with great precision and elegance, including the arrangements, but I prefer the pieces played by Rakich on organ.

Quote from: premont on February 09, 2010, 11:21:00 AM
I am not convinced. A Bachian scoring would be two melody-instruments (excuse me the horrible word) f.i. one flauto traverso, one violin and continuo (like the Triosonata from Musicalisches Opfer), or one melody-instrument and cembalo obligato (like the violin/harpsichord sonatas). I admit, that the recording you recommended some time ago with two lute-harpsichords is relevatory, but in this case I imagine a rendering on pedal harpsichord with lute stops like the one by Eduard Power Biggs.

However in the long run the musicianship is more important than the scoring, and I hear you say, that the organist is very good. I just have the problem, that I by now own > 50 recordings of the organ triosonatas, so another recording has got to offer something really special to sustain my interest.


The previous conversation inspired me to do some investigation about the different scorings used in the arrangements of the organ sonatas (BWV 525-530).

I thought it would be interesting to share the following post of Brad Lehman in the Bach-Cantatas site:

"Excluding the organ, and Bach's own arrangement of part of 527 as the Triple Concerto (1044), here are the recordings I have:

- Konrad & Thomas Ragossnig playing 526 on lute and harpsichord

- Bream and Malcolm on lute and harpsichord (I don't currently have this, but have heard it on LP)

- Rampal and Veyron-Lacroix on flute and harpsichord (LP) (an unpalatable performance that I reviewed here earlier....)

- King's Consort: two violins, viola, cello, oboe, oboe d'amore, theorbo, organ, harpsichord variously deployed

- Musica Pacifica: recorder, violin, cello, harpsichord

- Savall and Koopman: 529 on viola da gamba and harpsichord

- E Power Biggs on pedal harpsichord

- Anthony Newman playing 530 on pedal harpsichord (LP)

- Hazelzet and Ogg playing 525-528 on traverso and harpsichord

- Fisk and Fuller on guitar and harpsichord

- Bogdanovich and Comparone on guitar and harpsichord (with heavy use of buff stop) "Bach With Pluck"

- Leopard and Paul on two Lautenwercke

- Aulos Ensemble with oboe d'amore, viola da gamba, cello, harpsichord in 528 (based on the instrumentation in Cantata BWV 76), and flute, violin, cello, harpsichord in 525

- Joseph Payne overdubbing himself with three separate harpsichord tracks, maximum stereo separation: single movements from 526 and 529 ("Spaced-Out Bach" LPs from the 1970s....)

- The new London Baroque recording (I haven't heard it yet): two violins, cello, harpsichord

- I've heard terrific live performances of these sonatas by Elizabeth Farr on pedal harpsichord; not recorded yet, to my knowledge, but she told me she was planning to do so someday

What other combinations are out there? Someday I'll finish my arrangement for two harpsichords....

My favorites in there are Fisk/Fuller and Hazelzet/Ogg. But all these different instrumentations bring out interesting aspects of the music".

AFAIK, other four discs (and Rakich's discs, for sure) could be considered in this non-exhaustive list:

Le Concert Français
Sonate a Flauto, Violino e Basso (Astrée)
S. Marc, recorder, voice flute; F. Fernadez, violin;  P. Pierlot, viola da gamba & P. Hantaï, harpsichord
BWV 529: recorder, violin & continuo
BWV 525: voice flute, violin & continuo
BWV 530: recorder, violin & continuo
(Great disc!)

Guido Balestracci (viola da gamba)/ Blandine Rannou (harpsichord)
Sonates pour viole de gambe et clavecin obligé (Zig-Zag Territoires)
BWV 528 – viola da gamba, harpsichord

The Rare Fruits Council
Bach Trio Sonatas (Astrée)
M. Kramer, violin; P. Valetti, violin; B. Mate, cello; Alessandro de Marchi, organ and D. Boerner, harpsichord.
BWV 527 & 530

Palladian Ensemble
Bach Trio Sonatas
Pamela Thorby, recorders; Rachel Podger, violin; Susanna Heinrich, viola da gamba & William Carter, theorbo
BWV 525, 530, 529, 527

I don't have the last two discs, therefore, I don't know their exact scorings, but apparently "The Rare Fruits Council" uses a harpsichord/organ double continuo.

:)

premont

Thanks for this survey, Antoine. I own twelve of the recordings Lehman mentions and several others. Maybe I should post my own list, since many of the recordings are most interesting. BTW I do not agree (with Lehman) that the arrangements are "better" than the organ versions.
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Antoine Marchand

#154
Quote from: premont on February 12, 2010, 03:50:30 PM
Thanks for this survey, Antoine. I own twelve of the recordings Lehman mentions and several others. Maybe I should post my own list, since many of the recordings are most interesting. BTW I do not agree (with Lehman) that the arrangements are "better" than the organ versions.

It would be great to complete the list with other discs and recommendations, Premont. Anyway, I would swear that your favorite transcription is not for guitar and harpsichord, am I wrong?  :D 

premont

#155
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 13, 2010, 08:17:37 AM
It would be great to complete the list with other discs and recommendations, Premont. Anyway, I would swear that your favorite transcription is not for guitar and harpsichord, am I wrong?  :D

No, Antoine, you are not wrong. ;)

Here is a list of the recordings I own of different chamber ensemble arrangements of Bachs Triosonatas for organ BWV 525 – 530. I have not included versions for pedal harpsichord or lute harpsichord.

525 - 530  Musica Pacifica  scored for recorder, violin & continuo.  (Virgin)

525 – 530  Heinz Holliger et alii (modern instruments and different scorings – either two melody instruments and continuo or one melody instrument and cembalo)  (Philips)

525, 529 & 530  Sebastian Marq, Francois Fernandez, Phillipe Pierlot and Pierre Hantaï
scored for recorder, violin and continuo  (Astrée)

527 &  530  Rare Fruits Council scored for either two violins and continuo or violin, viola and continuo,  (Astrëe)

525 – 530  The Purcell Quartet scored for two violins and continuo (the continuo viola da gamba sometimes playing parts of the middle part)  (Chandos)

525 – 530  Palladian ensemble scored for recorder, violin and continuo  (Linn 2CD)

525 – 530  Arion Ensemble  scored for traverso, violin and continuo (Analecta)

528    Freiburger Barocksolisten (modern instruments) scored for oboe, violin and continuo (Christophorus)

525 & 527  Camerata Köln scored for recorder or traverso and violin and continuo (CPO)

525 – 530  The King´s Consort scored for different combinations of two melody instruments and continuo (Hyperion)

525 – 530  London Baroque scored for two violins and continuo or violin, viola and continuo (BIS)

525 – 530  Le Parlement de Musique  scored for different and somtimes rather unusual combinations (Assai)

525 – 530  Reine-Marie Verhagen  recorder and  Tini Mathot organ, harpsichord  (Challenge)

525 – 530  Hille Perl  viola da gamba  Christine Schornsheim harpsichord  (DHM)

525, 527, 529 & 530  Marion Verbruggen  recorder  Mitzi Meyerson  harpsichord  (Harmonia  Mundi)

527 & 529  Stefano Bagliano  recorder  Ottavio Dantone  harpsichord  (Dynamic)

525, 526 & 529  Lorenzo Cavasanti  recorder / traverso  Sergio Ciomei  harpsichord  (Nuova Era)

525 – 530  András Adorján  traverse flute (modern)  Johannes Skudlik  harpsichord  (Ambitus)

525, 527 & 529  Giuliano Furlanetto  traverso  Francesco Bravo  harpsichord  (Phoenix)

525 & 529 (IIRC)  Julian Bream guitar  George Malcolm  harpsichord  (Sony)

529  Jordi Savall  viola da gamba Ton Koopman  harpsichord   (Alia Vox)

529  Paolo Pandolfo  viola da gamba  Rinaldo Alessandrini  harpsichord  (Harmonia Mundi)

Edit: Reading Lehman´s list I see that I forgot Hazelzet/Ogg and Balestracci/Rannou, maybe because I do not find them among the best.

My favorites  are The King´s Consort and London Baroque

My least favored  are The Purcell Quartet, Reine-Maria Verhagen/Tini Mathot and András Adorján/Johannes Skudlik.
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Antoine Marchand

Thanks for doing this, Premont; there are interesting additions in your list.

I am certainly interested in the King's Consort and London Baroque; but these other three (OOP  :-\) discs also look interesting to me:

Quote from: premont on February 14, 2010, 01:12:47 PM

525 - 530  Musica Pacifica  scored for recorder, violin & continuo.  (Virgin)

525 – 530  Hille Perl  viola da gamba  Christine Schornsheim harpsichord  (DHM)

525, 526 & 529  Lorenzo Cavasanti  recorder / traverso  Sergio Ciomei  harpsichord  (Nuova Era)


:)

premont

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 15, 2010, 07:48:29 AM
Thanks for doing this, Premont; there are interesting additions in your list.

I am certainly interested in the King's Consort and London Baroque; but these other three (OOP  :-\) discs also look interesting to me:

:)

Hille Perl is not OOP, it was released 2009 and I acquired it from JPC a few months ago.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Triosonaten-BWV-525-530/hnum/5560510
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Antoine Marchand


SonicMan46

Not too long back in the Listening Thread, I posted 2 CDs of Bach's Viola da Gamba/Keyboard Sonatas - have owned the older piano/cello version for years, which received a number of negative comments (and reviews have been mixed), plus the recording is short!  The post is quoted below which includes the other disc of these works that I own, i.e. w/ Savall/Koopman, and will keep!

But a more HIP replacement(s) for the other has now interested me; so I've looked at some other offerings and I've also reviewed an excellent and quite extensive set of reviews by our own Don HERE; two of a number recommended by Don intrigued me: 1) Spanyi on a tangent piano on BIS - I will likely purchase this disc just because of its uniqueness; and 2) Quintana & Frisch on a reduced priced HM disc; the latter an excellent review also in Fanfare.  Now, a third more recent recording w/ Pinnock was recommended by Stuart and also received a superb review in Fanfare!

So, please help w/ comments!  I believe I want the Spanyi disc - don't believe that I need both of the other two, so would enjoy hearing some opinions - both of the latter are viola da gamba & harpsichord versions - thanks all!  :D


   

QuoteA BLAST from the PAST!  :D

Bach, JS - Cello Sonatas w/ Mischa Maisky & Martha Argerich; I've probably owned this CD when first released (at least 20+ yrs) - recorded in the mid-1980s when both looked so young!  Still enjoy -  :)

Now, my other HIP-version is also shown below w/ Savall & Koopman - may put that one on next!