Palestrina's Missa Papae Marcelli recommendations?

[Montpellier]

Maybe a bit late now.  Still...........

I don't particularly like the Tallis Scholars - they have at least one female soprano and tend to sing with a lot of tremolo which I find unpleasant in polyphonic music of this time. 

The interesting and different recording is Soriano's arrangement for 2 x 4 voices made by the William Byrd Choir and recorded in the Sistine Chapel after renovation but before the drapes were replaced.  So the reverb is quite deep.  And the cantors don't sing like opera singers.   

It was released as the Mass of St Sylvester (the last night of the Octave of the Nativity).  BBC Artium CD572.

[Justin Ignaz Franz Bieber]

Maybe a bit late now.  Still...........

I don't particularly like the Tallis Scholars - they have at least one female soprano and tend to sing with a lot of tremolo which I find unpleasant in polyphonic music of this time. 

The interesting and different recording is Soriano's arrangement for 2 x 4 voices made by the William Byrd Choir and recorded in the Sistine Chapel after renovation but before the drapes were replaced.  So the reverb is quite deep.  And the cantors don't sing like opera singers.   

It was released as the Mass of St Sylvester (the last night of the Octave of the Nativity).  BBC Artium CD572.

it's never too late to find out about new recordings, especially of this music! thx for the info.  in my searches i found that the BBC played a recording by the BBC singers also, so there must be at least two recordings of soriano's arrangement.

edit: soriano may have been a student of palestrina's, and wrote two arrangements of the pop parcellus mass. one was for 4 voices + organ, the other was for 2x4-person choirs.

[KevinP]

this is one of my all-time favourite cds. knowing what i know now i'd pay just about any price to get a copy:

Okay, the store did have it. Since I was looking for the Palestrina, it never occurred to me to look under Allegri, despite how obvious that is from the cover. And since I'm leaving town this weekend and I may regret it if I don't pick it up, I did. Pick it up. The biggest difference between this and the Summerly, apart from the Tallises added fermatas here and there is in the balance of the voices. In the Summerly, the soprano cuts through the other five voices; with the Tallises, the six are pretty equal. And despite this being a pretty important difference, I still haven't decided which I prefer. In the a cappela stile antiquo, as it would later become known as, there isn't a clear melodic line to focus on, so in that repsect I like having the clearly-define soprano line, especially as this isn't fugal music. The problem is, I'm not sure it should always be the soprano. There's a point in the first Kyrie where the soprano and high tenor are singing antiphonic, a phrase in the tenor answered by a similar phrase in the soprano, passing back and forth. Neither version brings this out (the tenor line is burried in both) and I wouldn't know it had I not been following the score.

Is there a multi-channel recording of this work?

Another question. Does this work deserve to be known as Palaestrina's most famous? I'm not poo-pooing it because it is beautiful. But Palaestrina seems a very consistant composer. Any one of his works is as good as any other, give or take, and this one seems to have floated to the top merely because of the legend behind it. Yet it contains no fugue nor any Paletrinian arches, the melodic material coming instead from a popular tune, and those are two things that the composer is famous for.

[Justin Ignaz Franz Bieber]

Okay, the store did have it. Since I was looking for the Palestrina, it never occurred to me to look under Allegri, despite how obvious that is from the cover. And since I'm leaving town this weekend and I may regret it if I don't pick it up, I did. Pick it up. The biggest difference between this and the Summerly, apart from the Tallises added fermatas here and there is in the balance of the voices. In the Summerly, the soprano cuts through the other five voices; with the Tallises, the six are pretty equal. And despite this being a pretty important difference, I still haven't decided which I prefer.

I like lots of reverb; that's why I like the one by the Tallis Scholars'. I had always thought the soprano line was pretty clear but maybe the Oxford Camerata's is clearer still because it's closer mic'ed? (to my ears anyway) Or maybe it's my stereo.

In the a cappela stile antiquo, as it would later become known as, there isn't a clear melodic line to focus on, so in that repsect I like having the clearly-define soprano line, especially as this isn't fugal music. The problem is, I'm not sure it should always be the soprano. There's a point in the first Kyrie where the soprano and high tenor are singing antiphonic, a phrase in the tenor answered by a similar phrase in the soprano, passing back and forth. Neither version brings this out (the tenor line is burried in both) and I wouldn't know it had I not been following the score.

I don't know what you mean, and I looked at the score. Anyway I like scores for the reason you mentioned. I notice things that I hadn't noticed before. The first minute of the sanctus is one part where I noticed a lot of stuff in the score that I hadn't noticed just by listening.

Another question. Does this work deserve to be known as Palaestrina's most famous? I'm not poo-pooing it because it is beautiful. But Palaestrina seems a very consistant composer. Any one of his works is as good as any other, give or take, and this one seems to have floated to the top merely because of the legend behind it. Yet it contains no fugue nor any Paletrinian arches, the melodic material coming instead from a popular tune, and those are two things that the composer is famous for.

His Stabat Mater seems to get a lot of 'play' for some reason. I don't think it's great but his other stuff is. I like the Pope Marcellus mass more than anything else I've heard by Palestrina, but I don't think I've heard enough by him to know for sure. If it matters, JBuck says every Palestrina mass is a masterpiece, not just the Pope Marcellus mass.

[Lilas Pastia]

I love the Stabat Mater. And the Song of Songs is a truly gorgeous work, too. Among the shorter masses, the Missa brevis and Hodie Mass are worth anyone's time and money.

[FideLeo]

http://www.youtube.com/v/5OaI_17szzA

[asin]B003XKDF5Q[/asin]

[czgirb]

I have heard this one by the Tallis Scholars, and liked it very much.  (I'm a fan of them in general.)



--Bruce

I love them too ... My first Tallis Sholar CD is:
http://www.amazon.com/Allegri-Miserere-Gregorio/dp/B000059GLW/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1298710590&sr=1-1

[FideLeo]

I love them too ... My first Tallis Sholar CD is:
http://www.amazon.com/Allegri-Miserere-Gregorio/dp/B000059GLW/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1298710590&sr=1-1

I prefer them in English and Franco-Flemish repertories.   They are called 'Tallis' scholars for a reason!

[Que]

.[asin]B003XKDF5Q[/asin]

[...] the Palestrina, seen Masolino (or whatever his forum name is nowadays..) recommending it. But Bruno Giordano doesn't think well of it - one of the very few Amazonians (at the US site) whose opinion I value - especially in Early Music. On the other hand the many recorings roaming about by the British ensemble do not appeal to me... (Bruno favours the Tallis)

Tallis Scholars invariably sound more analytical to me compared to most other a cappella groups.  I read BG's review too but decided to give the Adhecaton disc a try, at least for the sake of the gorgeous album art    It's a warm bath (refer to the sound example if you please) so to speak but Rome has plenty of that too.   Palestrina is not best served cold (clear is fine)!

Well, the samples do not sound bad - at all.  I guess Bruno and I are on differents wave lenghts here...

Came accross an interesting blog review on the recording HERE, translated from French - original version HERE.

Q

[Que]

What about this German ensemble?  

If you like clarity, engagement, precision and top-notch audio, this could be the Papae Marcelli for you.

By and large, there seems to be a general consensus about the ideals to which modern performances of Palestrina should aspire. Most seem intent on balancing the clarity afforded by clear articulation and even balance between the voices with a warm, all-embracing aura, either from a generous acoustic or from homogeneity of choral tone.

By those standards, this is a remarkably successful recording. Ensemble Officium is a relatively small choir, seventeen singers are credited, but has plenty of power in reserve for Palestrina's more opulent textures. Some may find the readings a little on the dry side, dry for Palestrina that is, and certainly clarity is the overriding concern here. The balance between the voices is impeccable, as is the articulation of the texts. Pope Marcellus would surely have approved, as he would that the texts are also provided.

The liner-notes go into some detail about why these works are performed a fourth lower than notated. Whatever the historical justification, the musical benefits are clear. The sopranos are never strained, the alto lines are taken by tenors, adding to the evenness of the tone, and none of the lower voices is ever compromised by the tessitura. The recorded sound is exquisite: clear, warm and above all involving. There is no surround mix, but the stereo SACD layer demonstrates all the other virtues that this technology can field. In fact, those Trentine ideals of clarity and engagement are ideally met through the combination of a smallish choir and high-specification recorded sound.

The programme breaks up the Missa Papae Marcelli with interpolated plainchant and motets by Palestrina. The idea is to recreate the music of an Ascension Day service from Palestrina's time. From a purely musical point of view, this has the effect of introducing a range of Palestrina's lesser-known but equally fine works into the flow of his famous Mass. The ordering is probably not to everybody's taste, but I surprised myself in not skipping the Gregorian chant, which is sung here - often in small unison ensembles - with an unadorned and unornamented simplicity. Stylistically, it is the ideal complement to Palestrina's strivings for polyphonic clarity.

When it comes to Papae Marcelli recordings, the field is already crowded, but even so this disc deserves recommendation. If you like boy's voices on the top lines, driving tempi or halo-like cathedral acoustics, give this one a miss. On the other hand, if you like clarity, engagement, precision and top-notch audio, this could be the Papae Marcelli for you.

-- Gavin Dixon, MusicWeb International 

Rating: 10/9

It seems like every couple of months I discover yet another newly formed vocal group, established to perform early and/or Renaissance music. Most often, it's an ensemble of English singers, a natural outgrowth of one of the world's richest and still-enviable choral traditions. And that's where I would have guessed this Ensemble Officium to be from, had I relied only on my ears. The women's clear, open, forward-focused tone and the unforced solidity of the basses and unmannered lyricism of the tenors had me wondering for a moment from which Cambridge-based college these singers received their training. Rather, this group, which was founded in 1999 by conductor Wilfried Rombach, hails from southern Germany and already has won critical acclaim and several choral competition prizes.

    On evidence of this recording, the attention is deserved; performance-wise this is one of the finest Palestrina discs I've heard. These 16 singers not only sing the notes, but they sing them with precision and careful attention to ensemble balance while managing the finer aspects of expression. The long lines are beautifully spun, the interweaving of parts is a truly dynamic interaction, fully sensitive to what's really important at a given moment. It's difficult to make Palestrina sound routine, but it takes singers of exceptional musicianship and the most refined ensemble skills to achieve the sublime level we have here. Even the plainchant Ave Regina caelorum (chant is one of this group's specialties), sung only by women's voices, rises from earthly to ethereal. The following Kyrie, which begins the mass based on the Ave Regina caelorum chant melody, shows the choir at its best, the sumptuousness of the music's textures and its bright-colored harmonies making an impression as if we were hearing Byrd, Tallis, and Victoria rolled into one.

    Remarkably, this is, as far as I know, the only recording of Palestrina's gorgeous set of eight polyphonic sacred madrigals, Le Vergini, each one based on a stanza from Petrarch's original 11-stanza poem. The composer ingeniously illuminates the texts while also conforming to the poet's unique rhythmic scheme. The sound is just slightly too resonant to capture the linear detail most clearly, and this same condition also tends to obscure some of the harmonic moments that otherwise would have even more pleasurable impact. Nevertheless, this is really fine music making and lovely music to go with it. Although the Tallis Scholars remain the world's premier Palestrina performers, if forced to make such comparisons I'd without reservation say that Ensemble Officium is very close behind. I look forward to hearing more--much more--from this excellent group. [9/16/2001]

    --David Vernier

[Drasko]

Well, the samples do not sound bad - at all.  I guess Bruno and I are on differents wave lenghts here...
Q

I have that Odhecaton recording but haven't listened to it yet. Could try to write down few impressions when I get around to it, but these days I'm mostly in the mood for earlier stuff than Palestrina, so it might take a while.
I've read few reviews by the 'Giordano Bruno' and seemed to me that he is pretty strong for OVPP (or 2VPP most) for any renaissance polyphony and given that Odhecaton is 20 members male choir I'm not surprised he doesn't like it.   

[FideLeo]

What about this German ensemble?  

Site review by Geohominid November 14, 2009   

This recording has been in the can for some time, having been set down in 2004, and is in stereo only, a fact not announced on the disc or its packaging.

(....)

Performances are very good and well paced, with the solo Gregorian chants set further back in a resonant church acoustic, but the ensemble is much closer. I did find myself missing the brighter, more vibrant sound of boy's voices, for example from the Westminster Cathedral choir on RBCD. The more recent recording of the Ensemble Officium under Wilfried Rombach (Palestrina: Messa per Santa Cecilia - Ensemble Officium) is notably more sophisticated than this 2004 one, in its more fluid and nuanced singing and atmospheric but finely-detailed MC recording. Nevertheless, a useful issue, very well presented with excellent notes, photographs and texts in an attractive Digipak.

Referring to the review above, I will perhaps invest on the Cecilia Mass first for Rombach.  But then I already have the Odhecaton disc so I may be biased.   

[asin]B0014ID766[/asin]

Odhecaton uses a larger number of singers to imitate the overall scale and sonority of Palestrina's choir at Vatican.  I may prefer OVPP for Josquin et al. but it is my opinion that Palestrina is best served rich. 

[San Antone]

*** BUMP ***

This new recording is my current favorite.



New York Polyphony an all male vocal ensemble, one voice to a part, sings a program of Renaissance polyphony that has variety as well as homogeneity.   The entire program on this recording lifts it above other recordings, and if you are like me and prefer OVPP, then this is the one to get.  The texture of Palestrina's counterpoint is displayed to great advantage and I prefer it to any of the larger groups.

Also the Harry Christopher's Palestrina series is mandatory if you are a Palestrina fan, but the Papae Marcelli mass is not included in any of those six recordings, however, The Sixteen released it on this recording:

.

[XB-70 Valkyrie]

Just perused this thread quickly (did not read every word), but I heard this recently and liked it a great deal. Thoughts ?

[kishnevi]

Just perused this thread quickly (did not read every word), but I heard this recently and liked it a great deal. Thoughts ?

Have it.

If someone is interested in hearing the Sistine choir,  I would tell them to get it. But as a Palestrina CD, it's not really outstanding.  Not bad, just not great.
My own favorite recording would probably be the Tallis Scholars.

[San Antone]

The Sistine Choir was terrible for years prior to Palombella taking over, loud wobbly operatic tenors, and intonation problems all around.  I agree the recording referenced is fine, and a huge improvement over the past, but recordings for this work are thick on the ground and the Westminster Cathedral Choir or Tallis Scholars (they did it three times, any of which) are better.

My current favorite is posted above.  I like the small sound of the all male OVPP group, New York Polyphony.