Movie Soundtracks: Classical?

[sound67]

most film music is merely 3rd or 4th rate bastardizations of what classical composers had already did, and riddled with cliches and tricks etc...not only that, but the a film composer usually doesnt have the last say, a director can step in at any point and say "i dont like it, change it", so theyre under the gun and dont have the last say....'real' composers are to deep and serious to handle that kind of shit....

A moronic statement to be sure. Movie composers who know their craft are just as independent as court-composers were dependent on the tastes of their patrons - and vice versa. All art is governed outside forces and limitations.

Thomas

[sound67]

but i was just more generally saying that most serious composers are far too artistic to JUST do that, or deal with that kind of grind/condition...

So your statement was not specifically wrong, but generally.

""A mind is like a parachute. It doesnt work if it's not open." - Zappa"

You failed.

Thomas

[sound67]

Jerry Goldsmith was right when he said: "If our music survives, which I have no doubt it will, then it will because it is good."

This is true of music in any form. Mark made a good point saying that if film music employs the palette of instruments usually associated with "classical"/concert music, then it should be regarded as "classical". Not all film composers would agree to that statement, but the great ones (Bernard Herrmann, Jerry Goldsmith, Alex North, Miklós Rózsa, Erich Wolfgang Korngold, Alfred Newman, Elmer Bernstein etc.etc.) always had easily reckognizable stylistic trademarks - which is the most important element of any classically-informed music.

Some of the greatest film music, in that it was composed for the 20th century's most important - and only new - art form, will certainly survive.

I do not agree with Bogey however that entire soundtracks should be released. Each and every complete soundtrack release is bound to be repetitive. Movie music benefits from regrouping and sometimes "remaking" the music into concert suites etc.

Thomas

[sound67]

Heres a few adding to Israfels list....
Dead Again
...
Dracula (Kilar)
...
Somewhere in Time
Out of Africa
Round Midnight
Shawshank Redemption
Sleepers

These, however, are eminently forgettable.

[Grazioso]

most film music is merely 3rd or 4th rate bastardizations of what classical composers had already did, and riddled with cliches and tricks etc...not only that, but the a film composer usually doesnt have the last say, a director can step in at any point and say "i dont like it, change it", so theyre under the gun and dont have the last say....'real' composers are to deep and serious to handle that kind of shit....

So classical composers have never composed or edited to appease patrons, audiences, or publishers? They've never been thinking of coin while composing? I think not.

[The new erato]

As I wrote in the thread on popular music:

"Of course the commercial pressures, and easy production and distribution , assures that there's produced a lot of crap today. But lots of Haydns contemporaries were composing mainly to keep their children fed as well."

[71 dB]

<awaits derision for confessing to owning the first of the above-mentioned soundtrack CDs>

No, I don't own it.  My Movie Soundtrack "collection":

John Williams - Raiders of the Lost Ark
John Williams - A.I. Artificial Intelligence
John Williams - Jurassic Park
John Williams - Star Wars Episode I
John Williams - Star Wars Episode II
John Williams - Star Wars Episode III
John Williams - Star Wars Episode IV
John Williams - Star Wars Episode V
John Williams - Star Wars Episode VI
John Williams - Minority Report
The Spielberg/Williams Collaboration
Copland/Williams - Music for Stage and Screen
Lesley Barber - Mansfield Park

[Szykneij]

That's consistent with my one and only non-classical cd from Don Fagen - "F".

My Donald Fagen cds are filed under "S".

[Bogey]

I see that some are "tagging" this thread with their favorite list of soundtracks as well.  Though it may be pushing the envelope, I will make another thread to accommodate these, as I find these lists fun/interesting as well......and I want to post mine.   I'll use a page out of Dave's book to get it off the ground.  Now, where to put it?  What the heck.....I'll put it under Great Recordings and Reviews. 

My only request, if you should feel up to it, is that for those that posted their "favorite" lists here is to repeat this on the new thread, as it would be nice to reference from time to time.....however, I believe I will cap the lists at 5.

Here is the thread:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,1103.0.html

[loudav]

most film music is merely 3rd or 4th rate bastardizations of what classical composers had already did, and riddled with cliches and tricks etc.

Strictly speaking, this statement is correct, but only because it starts with "most". For that matter, most classical music is just 3rd or 4th rate bastardizations of what [other] classical composers had already [done], and riddled with cliches and tricks etc. It's just that what gets recorded and listened to is the cream of the crop. Likewise with film composers, Miklos Rozsa and Bernhard Herrmann didn't stop writing great music when they were doing it for film. Also, Copland wrote a couple of nice film scores. And can we count Schoenberg's op. 34?

Danny Elfman's score for "A Simple Plan" is an interesting study. It obviously lacks development, but there are some fascinating harmonies and timbres produced using out-of-tune pianos and (I think) pairs of flutes.

[Israfel the Black]

pfff touchy touchy...what i did say earlier does apply to most film music, its done in brief, its meaning doesnt run as deep, its mainly all that these composers do, can you point me to Jerry Goldsmith's more personal chamber works? something that runs a little more deeply and means more than merely provide aural backdrop to a scene...film composers can spend a lot of time on something only to have a director come in and sqwelch it all completely; so yes the scope of their artistry is severly restricted within narrower confines, they arent that FREE ....just curious though what is in your estimation the greatest film music, stuff thats so great that its up there with the best of the 20th century classical compositions?

I would say Philip Glass' Koyaanisqatsi score is one of his most meaningful pieces the composer has written. I would also say Nino Rota's La Strada and scores for The Godfather are among his most personal works ever, as I have almost a complete collection of all of his concert works. This is a new century, a new time, where film is the medium that is inspiring many composers to write glorious music. It is no longer the turn of the century where film is just being discovered as a financial medium for composers, but rather an artistic medium for individuals who grew up watching and loving cinema just as we have, hearing the music of great composers behind the images, inspiring them to one day work in film just as a young Mozart aspired to write Opera. As long as you are trying to force your 18th century perspective on 20th century music you will continue to miss the greatness of this genre. It doesn't matter what all of you elitists in here assume or think about the inferiority of film music, what matters is that several composers have already become immortalized by their film music who are now dead. What matters is that in 20 years film music will be regarded as practically the single and most profitable medium which provided composers a palette to write in traditional classical forms and also innovate in experimentation without alienating tonality or their audience. What matters is that film music will be regarded as the one single medium which saved the death of classical music from the bludgeon dealt by the serialist and modernist, who very few had pieces themselves which contain even a fraction of the intimate, emotional power of some of these film score composers.

I am truly tired of hearing film music being neglected by music elitists because they are neglecting something that will be, and is, a very integral part of art history. Film music is no different from stage music for Opera, theater, or court music. I see little difference in Bernard Herman's mind bending score for the complex, psychological Hitchcock thriller Vertigo any less of art than Beethoven's Piano Trio composed for prince Lichnowsky. If you sneer film music then I assume you know very little about music, and this applies to anyone in this thread who does so. I don't care if you call it Classical, Neoclassical, Romantic, 20th Century, or whatever you like, it is a genre and medium that is directly associated with keeping your beloved classical music alive throughout the 20th and 21st centuries. Many of these composers are film buffs. They are not just committing to financial demands or court officials, they are contributing to a collaborative team of individuals devoted to crafting a piece of art that will entertain and inspire audiences around the world. Most of the great composers of film worked with the greatest directors in film with names such as Fredrico Fellini, Francis Ford Coppola, Akira Kurosawa, Martin Scorsese, Steven Spielberg, Sergio Leone, Godfrey Reggio, Sergei Eisenstein, and Alfred Hitchcock. These are some of the greatest film artists of the 20th Century, who they themselves were inspired by the works of great literary artists such as Dostoevsky, Shakespeare, Tolstoy and Chekhov. The case here is not an artist working for a court official, but the case of an artist working with an artist.

The great Fredrico Fellini said once of Nino Rota: "The most precious collaborator I have ever had, I say it straightaway and don't even have to hesitate, was Nino Rota--between us, immediately, a complete, total, harmony... He had a geometric imagination, a musical approach worthy of celestial spheres. He thus had no need to see images from my movies. When I asked him about the melodies he had in mind to comment one sequence or another, I clearly realized he was not concerned with images at all. His world was inner, inside himself, and reality had no way to enter it."

These filmmakers do not go in and tell the composers what to write, because they realize you cannot command a true artist to shape another's vision. Instead, they depend on these composers' own genius due to previous experiences and mutual vision, and allow them to compose however the film itself inspires them to write. George Lucas and Steven Spielberg give little to no input on Williams' score. They give him footage and he writes based from his own inspiration of the images. The same is true for Herrmann, Glass, Kilar, Rota, Morricone and most other of the film greats.

[Israfel the Black]

All of this goes without mentioning that these composers typically collaborate with the same director several times or all of the time. This is not because they get paid the most by this particular director, but because they have a great affinity for their work and person. This is why John Williams has composed for all of Spielberg's films save for two. Nino Rota wrote every single film score for Fellini's films. There is no surprise why Enni Morricone has written 400 film scores (beyond his financial means) and wrote most or all of Sergio Leone's film music. Bernard Herrmann wrote 9 film scores for Alfred Hitchcock. I think these trends say a little bit more about the art than financial obligations or convenience. It is no coincidence the greatest directors in cinema collaborated with the greatest composers in music.

[Robert]

These, however, are eminently forgettable.

I am giving you the benefit here assuming you have heard any of these soundtracks....

[Robert]

These, however, are eminently forgettable.

May I call you Roger, Mr. Ebert.  I am having anxiety fits waiting for your list....I only see you shooting off your mouth I dont see any listing from you.....

[71 dB]

These filmmakers do not go in and tell the composers what to write, because they realize you cannot command a true artist to shape another's vision. Instead, they depend on these composers' own genius due to previous experiences and mutual vision, and allow them to compose however the film itself inspires them to write. George Lucas and Steven Spielberg give little to no input on Williams' score. They give him footage and he writes based from his own inspiration of the images.

In case of Star Wars movies Lucas and Williams went through the early cuts of the movies and discussed about what kind of music should be composed to each scene. Lucas told Williams what kind of emotions and feelings he wanted from the music. After that, Williams' hands were free.

Like opera music, movie music is subordinate to the "whole thing". Movie music must obey scene timing and allow other sounds on the movie soundtrack (in a movie like Star Wars there can be 100 simultanuous sounds!) to be heard. The best movie composers should be respected as their scores improve movies more than we think.

[Don]

These, however, are eminently forgettable.

Since your above statements include Shawshank Redemption, I'll have to disagree.  I think that one is perfect for the movie and I've never forgotten it.

[Israfel the Black]

In case of Star Wars movies Lucas and Williams went through the early cuts of the movies and discussed about what kind of music should be composed to each scene. Lucas told Williams what kind of emotions and feelings he wanted from the music. After that, Williams' hands were free.

Like opera music, movie music is subordinate to the "whole thing". Movie music must obey scene timing and allow other sounds on the movie soundtrack (in a movie like Star Wars there can be 100 simultanuous sounds!) to be heard. The best movie composers should be respected as their scores improve movies more than we think.

Well, in Williams case this may be true, in terms of envisioning the emotion. Although, I am pretty sure this was not the case for most of his work in the Prequels, but I am not as familiar with Williams' work as I am others. There are many exceptions and different approaches to creating music in the filmmaking process, and it would be unfair to assume the same process is true for all filmmakers, because it certainly is not. Yes, composers are limited to certain cues and such in the film, but this is hardly unique in music. Even outside theater music such as a tone poem, or a patriotic symphony, or a concerto, is typically ordained by both expected typical form and the appropriate mood that is respective to the particular text adapted, and the commissioned nature of the work. There are exceptions and liberties taken by composers, however, but the same holds true for film composers as well.

[71 dB]

Well, in Williams case this may be true, in terms of envisioning the emotion. Although, I am pretty sure this was not the case for most of his work in the Prequels.

There weren't much differencies between the "original" and "prequel" trilogies. In episode I Williams "backward-developed" the themes of the original trilogy so that the themes of episodes IV, V and VI sounds like they are developed from the themes of episode I. "Anakin's Theme" is a fantastic example of that.

[Israfel the Black]

There weren't much differencies between the "original" and "prequel" trilogies. In episode I Williams "backward-developed" the themes of the original trilogy so that the themes of episodes IV, V and VI sounds like they are developed from the themes of episode I. "Anakin's Theme" is a fantastic example of that.

Perhaps I should have said "some of these composers". I can see the backwards development there, but the prequels score were still quite progressive for Williams' sake. The use of full chorus and certain rhythmic arpeggios in many of the themes used were quite unique for Williams. I am not a huge fan of Williams though, to be honest. I don't own any of his music outside of the respective films he has contributed to, but I have read some comments Spielberg made about him which was more to what I was referring to in my post more than Lucas.

[71 dB]

Perhaps I should have said "some of these composers". I can see the backwards development there, but the prequels score were still quite progressive for Williams' sake. The use of full chorus and certain rhythmic arpeggios in many of the themes used were quite unique for Williams. I am not a huge fan of Williams though, to be honest. I don't own any of his music outside of the respective films he has contributed to, but I have read some comments Spielberg made about him which was more to what I was referring to in my post more than Lucas.

Williams is very versatile composer. He used even electric guitar (!) in the score for Star Wars Episode II (The Chase Through Coruscant). I don't know what Spielberg comments you are referring to.