Mozart a fraud?

[Gurn Blanston]

A person posting under the name Robert Newman on another forum is arguing that Mozart and even Haydn didn't write the majority (if any) of the music attributed to them.  He's apparently got a book planned, so my guess everyone would have to wait until said book is published to read his argument.  I've asked if he can provide any reputable documentary evidence to support his claims, and hopefully he will - outside of his book, of course.  His titillating posts appear to be a slightly cynical early marketing ploy (Mozart is a fraud!), but I'm curious to see if this idea gains any traction.

So, any takers on this hypothesis?

Todd,
Old news, I'm afraid. Robert has been around for years posting on numerous sites (from which he has been evicted in every case). If you ask him for documentation of anything, he promises much but provides nothing. He is of the same order as various other conspiracy theorists. I can promise you that if the putative book ever sees the light of day, it will contain not a shred of documented proof for any claims made. Unless he has been saving it all through the years for the big event...



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Listening to:
The Beethoven Academy - May, 1824 - Das neue Orchester \ Spering - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 2nd mvmt - Molto vivace - Presto

[Dr. Dread]

And Min-es-so-tah Dave: Thank you so much for the plot preview of your next book.  BTW, how did those British awards turn out for you?

I should have researched them a bit more before tooting my horn. Anyone can put you on the preliminary list, including your publisher. 

[Gurn Blanston]

As do I.  I wonder if he'll actually get something published.  I think I know the answer.

Out of curiosity for those who've run across Mr Newman, where else has he trolled?

Places where I've run across him:

Openmozart (unfortunately deceased)
Mozartforum.com
Beethoven Forum
CMG
Classical Music Mayhem (even Roddy gave him the boot eventually!)
Talk Classical (only heard of him there, I don't go there myself)

and probably others.



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Listening to:
The Beethoven Academy - May, 1824 - Das neue Orchester \ Spering - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile

[Brian]

Having worked already for many years on the subject of John Fitzgerald Kennedy and his career I'm well aware of the controversy that can occur on the rare occasions when his assassination is questioned. It seems unthinkable that his story (told in countless books and even in such famous films as 'JFK') may be largely (almost totally) fraudulent. There are, you will be told, mountains of documentary evidence in support of his having been killed that day in Dallas by a lone gunman, Lee Harvey Oswald.

This American president (so we are told) was murdered by Oswald, working by himself, with one 'magic bullet' fired from the Texas Schoolbook Depository. There were no other associated killers in other parts of the scene, as some evidence might suggest, and no videotape corroborating claims of killers on, for instance, the Grassy Knoll. Surely, nothing is clearer than Kennedy enjoying a status that is entirely justified, by facts ?

Well, no.

It would not be possible to debate/discuss this issue in the detail it deserves on short forum posts. But it IS possible to describe how the above view of the Kennedy assassination is seriously flawed.

It's my view (and I hope to expand on it at some length in a controversial book) what we've been told of JFK is mostly fiction. In reality, John Fitzgerald Kennedy is still alive today. On that day in 1963 a body double, well-made-up and with an elaborate hairpiece, rode in the presidential car through Dealey Plaza. Kennedy himself had been spirited away to an undisclosed location in Fort Worth. His hired gunman, Oswald, in fact a covert Secret Service agent, shot the body double in order to convince the American people that Kennedy was dead. But, in fact, he lives on, by now worth billions of dollars through his investments in the drug trade and other highly profitable organizations. There might be those who will tell you that Kennedy is dead, that he was really riding in the car that day in Dallas, and that the subsequent autopsy was performed by honest doctors who sincerely believed their subject to be the real JFK. Again, such stories do not survive close examination. What really happened was the deliberate falsification of facts, the deliberate creation and propagation of a legendary assassination, and this as a project of an elusive criminal President with an agenda. So, at least, are the findings of my research, conducted over 15 years or so. I would be happy to share evidence with you if any of you believe you can prove me wrong.

[Harry]

Newman was banned from CMG because he upset a few of the CMG locals, one in particular, and you might be able to guess who.

You're right that CMG has more than its quota of nutcases.

It takes little to upset the Corker!

[Todd]

If you ask him for documentation of anything, he promises much but provides nothing.

Well, he should still be fun to exchange one or two posts with.

In reality, John Fitzgerald Kennedy is still alive today.

Shhh.  I saw him once, when I visited Florida.  He's going to be very angry if this secret gets out.

[Opus106]

Brian, I hope you give enough thought (and space in your book) about the period in which he produced - secretly, of course - that film with Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins.

[Coopmv]

Not sure which is easier, to prove that Mozart was a fraud or Marco Polo never went to China.  Indeed, one of my sisters knew an Italian who wanted to do just that ...  LOL

[DavidRoss]

Not sure which is easier, to prove that Mozart was a fraud or Marco Polo never went to China.  Indeed, one of my sisters knew an Italian who wanted to do just that ...  LOL

Perhaps your sister's friend can answer a question that's long puzzled me: just what did the Italians eat before the Chinese gave them pasta and the Americans gave them tomato sauce?

[knight66]

They ate rice.

As to the Mozart affair. Mr Corkin did insert a fair smattering of the above mentioned theories into this board. I seem to remember having some exchanges with him on the supposed theories. No evidence was adduced, just the assertions placed firmly in the ring.

Mike

[Coopmv]

Mozart may have died from eating undercooked pork

http://depts.washington.edu/mednews/vol5/no24/mozart.html

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, he should still be fun to exchange one or two posts with.

I'll bet you bite your own tongue off within 24 hours....




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Listening to:
Piano Sonates n°s 3 & 4 (CD2) - Weber, Carl Maria von - Weber Op 49 Sonata #3 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro feroce

[Todd]

I'll bet you bite your own tongue off within 24 hours....

Nah, he's already become tiresome.  Time for another conspiracy theorist.  Hey, what is Sean up to these days.

[Gurn Blanston]

Nah, he's already become tiresome.  Time for another conspiracy theorist.  Hey, what is Sean up to these days.

Don't know, but I'm sure he'll tell us all about it when he touches base with reality next...



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Listening to:
The Young Beethoven - Igor Kipnis -  LvB WoO 53 Allegretto in c

[Sorin Eushayson]

A person posting under the name Robert Newman on another forum is arguing that Mozart and even Haydn didn't write the majority (if any) of the music attributed to them.  He's apparently got a book planned, so my guess everyone would have to wait until said book is published to read his argument.  I've asked if he can provide any reputable documentary evidence to support his claims, and hopefully he will - outside of his book, of course.  His titillating posts appear to be a slightly cynical early marketing ploy (Mozart is a fraud!), but I'm curious to see if this idea gains any traction.

So, any takers on this hypothesis?

The poster is active on the Magle forum among others, so you can interact with him directly.

So that's where Newman is hiding out these days!  He used to make his nest at CMM, but finally got himself banned.  It was a long time coming: his misinformation and bullying was a plague on our forum, turning many people off from posting there.  It seems he's still doing what he does best: stirring up the masses with nothing more than spin and hot air.

Pay no more heed to his ideas: they're about as valid as saying the moon is made of cheese or that there are orange groves on the sun.  I used to argue with him about it, but then I realised I was merely casting my rhetorical pearls before swine - a swine.

[Gurn Blanston]

So that's where Newman is hiding out these days!  He used to make his nest at CMM, but finally got himself banned.  It was a long time coming: his misinformation and bullying was a plague on our forum, turning many people off from posting there.  It seems he's still doing what he does best: stirring up the masses with nothing more than spin and hot air.

Pay no more heed to his ideas: they're about as valid as saying the moon is made of cheese or that there are orange groves on the sun.  I used to argue with him about it, but then I realised I was merely casting my rhetorical pearls before swine - a swine.

Sorin,
You should have been on MozartForum back in the days when he tried to take IT over. You can imagine the reserved posters there reacting to him. In truth, I thought it was pretty darned funny...



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Listening to:
The Young Beethoven - Igor Kipnis -  LvB Sonata #8 in c 1st mvmt - Grave

[Hollywood]

Sorin,
You should have been on MozartForum back in the days when he tried to take IT over. You can imagine the reserved posters there reacting to him. In truth, I thought it was pretty darned funny...

Boy, do I remember those days!    I am one of those reserved posters on the MozartForum and I got to the point where I thought that if I ever met up with that nutcase, I would go Postal! 

[Florestan]

The whole foul plot was allegedly organised by the Jesuit Order which, having been banned by the Pope, was anxious to get themselves re-instated and did so by currying favour with the Austrian Emperor by promoting music by German composers at the expense of the Italians.  Mozart and Haydn happened to be convenient receivers of quality music composed by a number of others.  Thus, Newman argued that Mozart and Haydn wrote virtually nothing of any importance, and it was all the work of others, including especially a man called Andrea Luchesi, who was Kapellmeister at Bonn (where LvB was a student). 

Now that's indeed a typically Jesuitic plot: in order to promote German composers at the expense of the Italians, hire an Italian to write German music. 

[DavidRoss]

Nah, he's already become tiresome.  Time for another conspiracy theorist.  Hey, what is Sean up to these days.

Talk about tiresome....  However, thinking of that poor fellow sparked an idea for a "Reality" TV show with potential to be the mother of all train wrecks and thus a giant hit earning gazillions of dollars by brainwashing viewers into believing that they, too, can be just like Princess Di if only they use Troll-Away brand deodorant:

Just put Sean, Newman, the Corkster, and AC Douglas together and let them duke it out!

On second thought, it would flop.  At least one participant would have to be interesting or attractive or the channel would get changed in seconds.

[Kuhlau]

Reading Holly's and Sorin's posts in this thread has reminded me of the exchanges I witnessed between Rod and Robert over at Classical Music Mayhem when I was there briefly as a member. My leaving that forum had nothing to do with the ridiculous arguments the pair seemed to enjoy having (Newman making unbelievable claims, thus goading Corkin into threats of a ban), but because I asked to be deregistered when Rod started editing - inaccurately - my perfectly legitimate posts. He and I then traded a few choice words by email before I put his address into a anti-spam filter. Even then, I kept getting mails once a month from his forum.

As to Newman turning up at Magle, I was among the first to engage him there. This was because I'd always assumed he was the more reasonable of the long-running double-act that is Corkin & Newman. However, now everything Rod told me about Robert in private - Newman's wild conspiracy theories and multiple forum bans - appears to check out. Maybe I should email Rod and apologise for once saying I'd rather have dinner and conversation with Robert than with him ...

FK