Mozart a fraud?

[Holly]

OK I'm a complete charlatan. Now, will you answer the question about the early works which have been falsely attributed to W.A. Mozart or shall we open another canister of artificial smoke ?

No, I won't.  I think it is pretty clear from this little episode that you are just a big puff of wind.  You can't answer basic questions that are fundamental to your case.  It's a pity you don't like Haydn because a suitable title for your brand of nonsense would be "Newman's Creation".

[Herman]

Holly, let's leave it at this. Your list of composers without any formal training is conclusive. Let the guy stew.

[Brian]

Holly, you're right about Gershwin. He taught himself to play the piano by placing his fingers onto the keys being played by a "player piano", so that eventually, by sheer memorization, he could figure out how to play the songs the player piano was performing. He taught himself to compose simply by listening to the music of others; thus the need for professionals to orchestrate his Rhapsody in Blue. (Later, by the time of the American in Paris, Cuban Overture and Porgy and Bess, he was proficient enough to orchestrate for himself - because he felt the need to prove that he was indeed writing his own music. Apparently critics thought certain passages were being written for him ... where have we heard that before!?!?)

[robnewman]

It's not even funny how far you are away from academic criticism. Please present some evidence for any of your claims.

For instance - lets choose the clarinet quintet and clarinet concerto, two late masterpieces. Please provide EVIDENCE that we can all see (that doesn't mean you just saying, oh that piece is by so and so, believe me) the 'truth' of the matter.

Exactly.

Guido,

OK, you want to discuss specific works of 'Mozart'. Fine. Let's agree.

We will study the Clarinet Concerto KV622 and the Clarinet Quintet KV581. Fine. Agreed ? Good idea !! Please confirm.

Regards

Robert Newman

[Brian]

Gurn Blanston,

You are so right ! Argument is pointless.

Mr. Newman,

Guido is not the first to want to study specific works; a Mass has been suggested, and two people have suggested a piano concerto. However, I am willing to go along with Guido and see what you have to say on his selections.

[robnewman]

Thanks for your agreement Brian !

[robnewman]

No, I won't.  I think it is pretty clear from this little episode that you are just a big puff of wind.  You can't answer basic questions that are fundamental to your case.  It's a pity you don't like Haydn because a suitable title for your brand of nonsense would be "Newman's Creation".

Well, seems to me that you don't want to acknowledge the FACTS as they relate to early Mozart. Or am I mistaken ? Well, fine. Stay ignorant if you must.

There are others who are more respectful and I will discuss the subject with them.

[robnewman]

It's only because you are so dumb that you kept on asking the same question after you were told immediately that Leopold Mozart taught his son.   As opposed to your typically malevolent and twisted interpretation of facts, there is nothing odd or sinister about this.  As you ought to know, before about the mid-19th century there were no conservatoires or academies of music as we know them. The Universities taught mainly Greek and Latin, and music wasn't on the curriculum.  Composers of that period acquired their knowledge of musical theory mainly from older more experienced composers, then followed by self-tuition, practice etc.  

There are many other famous composers, both before and after WAM, whose formal training was limited. Vivaldi apparently was largely self-taught, as too I understand was Gluck.  Schubert received little training, and Berlioz and Schumann were later examples.  Several famous Russian composers including Rimsky-Korsakov, Borodin, Balakirev received little musical training.  Alban Berg received hardy any training.  Elgar was completely self-taught in music theory.  I gather that Poulenc and Gershwin are later examples although I profess no expertise on their careers.

Another aspect is that according to Beethoven he learned nothing from Haydn.  So where did he get his further training from after leaving Bonn?

But this is moonshine. In actual fact, Leopold Mozart was NOT a teacher of composition, harmony or orchestration at any time in his entire life. Why do you invent such nonsense ? Is it for home consumption ? Leopold Mozart was a failed student of philosophy at the University of Salzburg who was falsely attributed with writing a violin treatise in 1756, stolen from an Italian virtoso violinist. He joined the orchestra of Salzburg as 4th Violinist. He was NEVER at any time a teacher of music theory, harmony or orchestration and he was awarded the post of 'Deputy Kapellmeister' without ever serving in that capacity in his entire life. He left Salzburg 4 weeks after receiving this purely honorary award. Which caused great resentment in Salzburg. 3 years later he was still absent from Salzburg.

Now who is a banana ? You really believe anything don't you ?  Ah 'Mozart was a genius'. THAT explains it, right ?? Lol !

[Christie]

Well, seems to me that you don't want to acknowledge the FACTS as they relate to early Mozart. Or am I mistaken ? Well, fine. Stay ignorant if you must.

There are others who are more respectful and I will discuss the subject with them.

I hope I shall be included in their number. I am very much looking forward to hearing your unfettered views on the specifics.
I appreciate your post above on Leopold. However, who is a banana?

[robnewman]

I hope I shall be included in their number. I am very much looking forward to hearing your unfettered views on the specifics.
I appreciate your post above on Leopold. However, who is a banana?

The banana is the person who first posted a whole bunch of them on this thread. Since that was not you nor I we can forget bananas. Some Mozartean, I guess ?

[Brian]

Speaking of bananas

[robnewman]

OK, well thanks for these exchanges. They certainly opened my eyes to the situation ! When your colleague (Guido) agrees to discuss the Clarinet Concerto and the Clarinet Quintet I will get back here.

In the meantime thanks and best wishes !

http://www.redicecreations.com/radio/2009/03mar/RICR-090329.php


Robert

[Lethevich]

Now, regarding other works. You must surely know that 'Mozart's' first 7 piano concertos (all of these from the time when he was a child also) are actually arrangements of works by other composers. But this too is a documented fact of musical history. JC Bach's sonatas feature in at least 4 of these works. They really are NOT by Mozart. Isn't this true ? So what we have here in these early symphonies and even in these early concertos is music NOT by Mozart at all.

First you make your babies-flying-jumbo-jets strawman to suggest that children cannot write advanced compositions (such as symphonies), and then you bash him for NOT producing such advanced compositions... WTF?

[Guido]

Absolutely, lets talk about the clarinet concerto and clarinet quintet.

[robnewman]

First you make your babies-flying-jumbo-jets strawman to suggest that children cannot write advanced compositions (such as symphonies), and then you bash him for NOT producing such advanced compositions... WTF?

Well, the two things are the same aren't they ? Babies don't fly jumbo jets and nor do children write advanced compositions such as symphonies without extensive tuition. Simple, right ? But Mozart was a 'genius'. Ah !!! That explains it, right ?  

I guess that sorts it that out, right ?

[robnewman]

Absolutely, lets talk about the clarinet concerto and clarinet quintet.

Great !

So Mozart composed both of these works, yes ? No ? Maybe ? Don't Know ?

[Guido]

Well given that every single academic up to now believes that to be true, lets take as our starting assumption that yes, he did compose it.

Now, what evidence might we have to the contrary?

[robnewman]

Well given that every single academic up to now believes that to be true, lets take as our starting assumption that yes, he did compose it.

Now, what evidence might we have to the contrary?

OK, let's start at the beginning. At the time of the Clarinet Quintet and of the Clarinet Concerto there were several composers writing these sorts of work. Have you heard any of them ? If not, let me give you an outstanding example.

Regards

[Guido]

OK, let's start at the beginning. At the time of the Clarinet Quintet and of the Clarinet Concerto there were several composers writing these sorts of work. Have you heard any of them ? If not, let me give you an outstanding example.

Regards

Do, if your example is pertinent to your proof of Mozart's fraudulence. Just set your case out all in one post, then we can discuss it.

[robnewman]

Do, if your example is pertinent to your proof of Mozart's fraudulence. Just set your case out all in one post, then we can discuss it.

Well, I could write screeds on this subject. Can I at least know if you have heard any clarinet quintet or clarinet concerto from the period of time that Mozart supposedly wrote these two works. Or, let's say, by around 1800 (within 10 years of Mozart's death) ?
A simple yes or no is enough and then I will write an article on the subject for you to see.

OK ?