Mozart a fraud?

[Guido]

These great concertos have their own special story. I will send you a copy of the chapter on them before publication. Only 5 of these were actually published (of the 27) during his lifetime, as you may know. And it's quite a long story. Still, yes, these are great works. And their story is remarkable. But he (Mozart) was not their composer.

Regards

When are you going to publish this fabled book? I'm beginning to believe that it is more fictitious than Mozart's apparent legacy.

[Josquin des Prez]

Nope. What kind of ridiculous nanny state are you advocating? Genius stands up for itself.

A culture needs to be inspired by its heroes, either wise it becomes apathetic and demoralized.

[knight66]

These great concertos have their own special story. I will send you a copy of the chapter on them before publication. Only 5 of these were actually published (of the 27) during his lifetime, as you may know. And it's quite a long story. Still, yes, these are great works. And their story is remarkable. But he (Mozart) was not their composer.

Regards

I will look forward to that.

Mike

[Christie]

These great concertos have their own special story. I will send you a copy of the chapter on them before publication. Only 5 of these were actually published (of the 27) during his lifetime, as you may know. And it's quite a long story. Still, yes, these are great works. And their story is remarkable. But he (Mozart) was not their composer.

Regards

Who was? I am fairly certain of Mozart's composition of at least three, plus slow movements from several others, but my information leads me to conclude, currently, that for example, No. 4 is a work of Georg Matthias Monn which had been dedicated to Leopold. Do you have corroborating information? Does your theory match mine? I am naturally cautious about advancing such explosive theories solely on my own steam, and wish to caution the rest of the forum that I would gladly accept responsibility if I prove incorrect.

[Brian]

Who was? I am fairly certain of Mozart's composition of at least three, plus slow movements from several others, but my information leads me to conclude, currently, that for example, No. 4 is a work of Georg Matthias Monn which had been dedicated to Leopold. Do you have corroborating information? Does your theory match mine? I am naturally cautious about advancing such explosive theories solely on my own steam, and wish to caution the rest of the forum that I would gladly accept responsibility if I prove incorrect.

Well this at least has the benefit of seeing how Mr. Newman reacts to a friendly theory that's obviously a crock ... Monn died 6 years before Wolfie was born ... (I had to Wiki it.)

[Gurn Blanston]

Well this at least has the benefit of seeing how Mr. Newman reacts to a friendly theory that's obviously a crock ... Monn died 6 years before Wolfie was born ... (I had to Wiki it.)

But he DID compose a splendid cello concerto (in g minor) though. It's a pity his estate didn't get in on the fire sale of great music to be used in the conspiracy....



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Listening to:
Violinkonzert E-Dur BWV 1042 - Concerto for Violin and Strings in E/3: Allegro assai

[not edward]

But he DID compose a splendid cello concerto (in g minor) though. It's a pity his estate didn't get in on the fire sale of great music to be used in the conspiracy....

However, it is worth noting that Monn did write Schoenberg's cello concerto. 

[Brian]

But he DID compose a splendid cello concerto (in g minor) though. It's a pity his estate didn't get in on the fire sale of great music to be used in the conspiracy....

Listening to it now to celebrate "First Listen Friday" - it is indeed a work which Mozart's inventors should have had him write! 

[Gurn Blanston]

However, it is worth noting that Monn did write Schoenberg's cello concerto. 

The entire idea of 12 tone came directly from the pre-Classical. There was a conspiracy among the Germans of the time to "save it for later".



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Listening to:
Juilliard String Quartet - Bach Art of the Fugue Canon alla Decima  (Did Anna Magdalena really write this? Damn, she was good!)

[Gurn Blanston]

Listening to it now to celebrate "First Listen Friday" - it is indeed a work which Mozart's inventors should have had him write! 

I first heard that work a few years ago, believe it or not, it was rec'd to me by JdP! At the time his handle was Opus 131 though, but we called him Opie...  



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Listening to:
Juilliard String Quartet - Bach Art of the Fugue Canon alla Decima

[Josquin des Prez]

I first heard that work a few years ago, believe it or not, it was rec'd to me by JdP! At the time his handle was Opus 131 though, but we called him Opie...  

And people say i never contribute to this board. Though to be frank i used to be a lot less bitter then. And yes, the concerto is a small but fine pearl. It's too bad he died so young.

[Josquin des Prez]

Well this at least has the benefit of seeing how Mr. Newman reacts to a friendly theory that's obviously a crock ... Monn died 6 years before Wolfie was born ... (I had to Wiki it.)

Speaking of death, isn't it a bit strange that all those ghost writers simply disappeared when the actual Mozart died? Maybe the conspirators killed them all to cover their traces.  

[Brian]

Speaking of death, isn't it a bit strange that all those ghost writers simply disappeared when the actual Mozart died? Maybe the conspirators killed them all to cover their traces.  

Well, after they had faked the Requiem, of course. 

[Gabriel]

The entire idea of 12 tone came directly from the pre-Classical. There was a conspiracy among the Germans of the time to "save it for later".

As well as Rejcha was proclaiming that quarter tones should be introduced in music, Gurn! (And this is true!)

[Gurn Blanston]

As well as Rejcha was proclaiming that quarter tones should be introduced in music, Gurn! (And this is true!)

As such, does it really have a place here? 



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Listening to:
Boston Baroque / Pearlman - Bach Concerto #2 in F BWV 1047 1st mvmt

[karlhenning]

So we come full circle. There is not a shred of evidence that Mozart actually studied music.

You are comic.  He actually studied with his father, who was actually a composer.  And you are flogging a thorough irrelevance here. The fact (a fact inconvenient to your whole tedious charade, but a fact) is that Mozart is known to have written masterful works in his maturity.  The man who knows what he is doing in his maturity, obviously learned something previous.

Now, on the other hand, there is not a shred of evidence that you are capable of intelligent assimilation of historical information. Nor have you said aught which substantiates your implicit claim that you can judge whether any other person on the planet "can have studied" composition.

[drogulus]

Who was? I am fairly certain of Mozart's composition of at least three, plus slow movements from several others, but my information leads me to conclude, currently, that for example, No. 4 is a work of Georg Matthias Monn which had been dedicated to Leopold. Do you have corroborating information? Does your theory match mine? I am naturally cautious about advancing such explosive theories solely on my own steam, and wish to caution the rest of the forum that I would gladly accept responsibility if I prove incorrect.

     Alfred E Neuman, I seem to remember that the comic character (no relation to your esteemed self!) bore a close resemblance to a ventriloquists dummy! Imagine that.

[Josquin des Prez]

I wonder what would Newman think of Art Tatum, a man who was nearly completely blind from birth, who received only high school level musical education, and who trained himself entirely by listening to recordings of other pianists:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9Cs_zb4q14

Yet, the music is of such a complexity it makes Mozart's own piano works sound like child play in comparison. I believe that's the reason people like this are called prodigies.

[Herman]

The fundamental fallacy at work here seems to be that the 2nd half of the 18th C should resemble today's world. You cannot compose music unless you have had the correct academic training. However, most artistic professions in the 18th century were transmitted via master-apprentice-like forms. Universities were for gentlemen and noblemen, not for people in the artistic professions. Most actors were born into theatrical families, and the same goes for musicians. As we all know, composers were performers in the first place. By performing music you learned the ropes. That was your training. The was no Curtis Institute or Juilliard School back then, strange as that may seem to some.

Jikes! J.S. Bach did not go to a music dchool. He learned the business from his dad. This would make him a fraud in Mr Newman's eyes, except Mr Newman is, apparently, not interested in Bach. Carl Ph. Emm Bach, again, did not have formal musical training (the way Mr Newman defines it), and yet he was a major composer (or a major fruad).

The other thing bugging Mr Newman is, apparently, that there were plenty of Mozart contemporaries and close predecessors who composed the same kind of formulaic galant music as Mozart did in his juvenile years. And yet they are not as famous as Mozart, on the contrary, they are nearly forgotten. The difference is simple, obviously. They didn't compose the music Mozart composed in his mature years. Had WAM died at KV 200 or some such point, he would not be the genius we have admired since. He would have been a child prodigy whom music historians remembered. Incidentally all those minor galant composers are now being recorded.

These things have in all likelihood been said before. Mr Newman has made career of posting about this, and about his "forthcoming book" and this is going to be my single contribution to this thread. Life is too short to debate fools and extremists.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I wonder - couldn't Mr Newman simply offer us one whole chapter of his book? I know everything about working on something which takes you years (in my case a novel), but there comes a moment when a lot of it is already finished and you can give people much more than just an inkling of what the finished product will look like.

Just a suggestion.