Cato's Grammar Grumble

[Cato]

A matter of times, taste, and perspective, I should think. From one angle, Truth sobbing on a street corner is no more ridiculous (questions of absolutism aside) than Patience on a monument.

I did not know the character uttering that sentence is 14 years old---that makes all the difference in the world, and it is not ridiculous imagery, to a child---so I stand corrected. Age makes a lot of difference, as we all know.
Like Holden Caulfield, a young person has his or her way of saying things.

Many thanks for the interest!

For any still following the mini-controversy, here is what precedes the "Truth" sentence:

Referring to what used to be known as Armistice Day, The Unknown Narrator writes:

But in honor of our American doughboys, I decided to take today off.  Thinking of soldiers from the good old days made me compare them to the guys and dolls walking the halls at school: the comparison wasn't pretty!  Of course, whether I'm a boy or a girl, and you probably have decided one way or the other, I wasn't very admirable either!  Lying about my physical condition today, lying in bed, lying on the couch in front of the TV, lying on the floor with a game controller: American kids are the greatest liars in the world!  School is just one big lie: no homework?  Lost it, forgot it, somebody took it, never heard what it was, didn't see what it was, I did it, but it's at home: the truth is that they just don't care.  Test time?  Cheating time, and that's assuming that you care for some reason!  Teachers lie too: prepared for class?  Always!  Interesting things to teach in an interesting way?  Always!  Ever inflate grades to make yourself look good?  Always, whoops, uh, Never!  Ever not changed a grade to make sure an athlete is never ineligible?  Never, uh, or is it always?  Yeah, triple negatives are a bummer!

The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner, and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.

I should probably add some salient details: The Unknown Narrator is complaining specifically that Armistice Day is no longer celebrated on November 11th unless that happens to be a Monday.  S/he is also an aficionado of old movies (hence the "guys and dolls" reference).

[Karl Henning]

♫ Call it hell, call it heaven,
It's a probable twelve-to-seven
That the guy's only doin' it for some doll . . . .

[The Six]

[Cato]

Very Interesting!

This website has a somewhat clearer survey of the results:

http://www4.uwm.edu/FLL/linguistics/dialect/staticmaps/q_56.html

[Cato]

http://www4.uwm.edu/FLL/linguistics/dialect/maps.html

fact, the above-mentioned website has many interesting "dialect maps" e.g.

http://www4.uwm.edu/FLL/linguistics/dialect/staticmaps/q_98.html

"By accident" vs. "on accident"    (Here in Ohio kids tend to say it: they see it as the opposite of "on purpose.")

[Karl Henning]

Cato, dude! You're living on the edge!

The pronunciation of "caramel" starts disregarding vowels once you go west of the Ohio River

Disregarding for the time being the pathetic fallacy that a pronunciation can regard anything . . . .

[Cato]

Cato, dude! You're living on the edge!

The pronunciation of "caramel" starts disregarding vowels once you go west of the Ohio River

First, I had to wonder just for a second about "west of the Ohio River," since the Ohio River runs east to west...except for the extreme eastern part, which does run north to south, before heading westward.

True: I have rarely heard "caramel" with 3 syllables. 

Disregarding for the time being the pathetic fallacy that a pronunciation can regard anything . . . .

A pronunciation with a mind of its own!   

[kishnevi]

First, I had to wonder just for a second about "west of the Ohio River," since the Ohio River runs east to west...except for the extreme eastern part, which does run north to south, before heading westward.

True: I have rarely heard "caramel" with 3 syllables. 

So the correct title of S. Jaun de la Cruz's work should be The Ascent of Mt. Caramel.
Well,  I suppose for many people a piece of chocolate can be a foretaste of heaven....

[Cato]

So the correct title of S. Jaun de la Cruz's work should be The Ascent of Mt. Caramel.
Well,  I suppose for many people a piece of chocolate can be a foretaste of heaven....

Here in the center of Ohio we have a "Mount Carmel" Hospital, where after a visit for something very minor I received no candy of any kind!   

Speaking of candy:

https://www.facebook.com/pencescarmelcornshoppe

[Cato]

I forgot to mention this article when it appeared a few weeks ago, due to all sorts of  happening at my school!

A war is being waged against apostrophes...by the source of much idiocy today...our government of course:

THURMAN, N.Y. -  The Domestic Names Committee of the U.S. Board on Geographic Names doesn't like apostrophes. Visitors to Harpers Ferry or Pikes Peak might not realize it, but anyone aspiring to name a ridge or a swamp after a local hero will soon find out.

In this Adirondack town, pop. 1,219, a move is on to put a mountain on the map in honor of James Cameron, who settled here in 1773. There is some dispute as to which mountain, and whether to call it Jimmy's Peak, Jimmie's Peak or James' Peak. But there is no opposition to the apostrophe—except from the government

"Without it, Jimmys looks plural, not possessive," Evelyn Wood, Thurman's town supervisor, said one morning upstairs in the Town Hall. She is 35 years old and has a college degree in English. The Domestic Names Committee, citing her "Jimmy's Peak" proposal in a letter, added "[sic]" after each "Jimmy's."

For punctuation sticklers, this official apostrophe aversion is a sad comment on a useful mark in serious trouble...

The no-apostrophe rule has been reaffirmed five times, yet punctuationists fight on. At a 2009 meeting with place namers from the states, the names committee was flayed for its "isolationist stance" toward "the perpetually punished apostrophe."

"The apostrophe has a function," says Thomas Gasque, an English professor who spent years on South Dakota's Geographic Names Authority. "It can imply things other than possession," he says. "We talk about a winter's day. The day doesn't belong to winter." .

Wait!  There's a South Dakota Geographic Names Authority?!

One of the arguments being made: the Internet doesn't like apostrophes!

See:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324244304578471252974458308.html

[Karl Henning]

Useful punctuation in grave peril

[Cato]

Neil Postman among others often warned that technology will affect not only the style, but also the content of our communications.

This specific war on the apostrophe, according to the article, goes back to the 1880's, and deals with fears about legal issues of property ownership being raised over an area's apostrophied (Sic Sic!) name.

[Karl Henning]

Zappa was ahead of the game, naming an album after that now-beleaguered punctuation!

[The Six]

This specific war on the apostrophe, according to the article, goes back to the 1880's,

Speaking of war, I'd battle over whether the apostrophe is needed when citing years. "1880s" is perfectly understandable without it.

[Cato]

You must love the bureaucrats, when they get in a bind!

Concerning James Clapper, director of national intelligence:

On Thursday, Clapper claimed, "What I said was, the NSA does not voyeuristically pore through U.S. citizens' e-mails. I stand by that." Of course, that's not what he said, and everyone knows it, because (of) video. So now Clapper says that he simply has a different definition of collect than most humans, and this (definition) allowed him to answer in the "least untruthful manner." He admits that this explanation is probably "too cute by half."

(To be fair, the man was not allowed to reveal publicly the top-secret operations...because they were top-secret operations!  If the question had been posed in closed session, then he could have answered truthfully, rather than in the "least untruthful manner.")

Anyway, concerning the language...

"Too clever by half" might have been a better choice: "cute" and bureaucrats just don't go together!   0:)

See:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/06/clapper-wyden-least-untruthful-too-cute-half.html

[kishnevi]

Speaking of war, I'd battle over whether the apostrophe is needed when citing years. "1880s" is perfectly understandable without it.

Before Cato's post, I have never (that I can recollect) seen anyone use a apostrophe such as that. 
Nor do I think it should be used.  We don't say the "Gay Ninety's.


To the main point--my 1994 Hammond Explorer Atlas (now probably in need of replacement, if only because it's falling apart) shows Pikes Peak, but Martha's Vineyard.

[Sean]

My apostrophe notes, I think also posted a few years back; unfortunately all the italics and colouring are lost here.

The Apostrophe

This is the most complex punctuation mark and has two main functions- abbreviation or indicating missing letters and possession or indicating belonging.

Abbreviation

For example, did not becomes didn't, they will becomes they'll, he would becomes he'd, and would have becomes would've. Also the same word can abbreviate different words, eg it's abbreviates it is or it has, and what's abbreviates is, has and does in for example what's it called?, what's he done? and what's it mean?; further, 's can abbreviate has, or is, as in the food's gone or she's finished. The abbreviated word is joined to the word before to make one word.

Can not, shall not and will not have the special contractions of can't, shan't and won't, where the first word is also abbreviated and won't changed; will not becomes won't not willn't, as this is easier to say, but am not doesn't become am't as this is hardly easier to say.

Some abbreviations, such as would've or nothing similar's been done are less accepted in written form, and although in speaking more than one word in succession may be abbreviated, this isn't done in writing- eg you can say they'll've gone by now, or he'd've done it, but must write they'll have or he'd have.

There are formations where words can't be abbreviated, eg I have to go, She's as good as I am or There it is don't become I've to go, She's as good as I'm or There it's. and conversely there are formations where abbreviated words are used but their unabbreviated forms aren't, eg Don't you think so? or Won't you go? don't appear as Do not you think so? or Will not you go?.

Longer words can be abbreviated often for written purposes, eg government can become gov't or boulevard blvd, or Johannesburg Jo'burg written or spoken; o'clock is short for of the clock, no longer used, and also the apostrophe is fixed in some names, eg O'Reilly.

Also apostrophes for missing letters or numbers at the ends or beginnings of words can be omitted if the meanings are still clear, eg phone, net, Feb 08, but retaining in non-standard English like 'bout (for about) or 'twas (for it was).

A dot after words can also denote abbreviation, eg Ltd. for limited, i.e. for that is to say (in Latin), Rev. for Reverend or Prof. for Professor but dots are increasing seen as unnecessary, particularly when the first and last letters are still in place, as in Mr, Dr or Sgt.

Possession

For example, Sue's book, or the table's legs. When the possessor's name already ends in an s (or s sound ie z, x, se, ce, ze or xe), the 's is usually retained but can be omitted if it makes the word or phrase awkward to say, ie James's or Julius's but Williams' or especially Moses' or Socrates' where there's already an es type sound at the end of the word; however Chris's and Jesus's are used.

When the possessor is plural the s after the apostrophe is always omitted, eg the tables' legs, boys' game or bosses' room.

The words its, theirs, ours, yours, whose and hers (also his and mine, from hes and mys) are already fixed as possessive and don't have apostrophes: hence it's and who's are always abbreviations. The singular one's, somebody's, nobody else's and also everyone's however take apostrophes, but never s'.

Men, women and children are also plural and to make them possessive, 's is added, eg women's hats. s' is never added, and chilrens, mens and womens also aren't words. However though people is likewise already plural, s' is used in refering to a number of peoples, eg the African peoples' languages- and peoples is a word, as though a plural plural; persons' is also possible.

An s of course is also added to verbs without an apostrophe to denote third person possession, eg she thinks, he takes or it begins.

Names of companies may or may not use the apostrophe, eg Lloyds Bank doesn't but Sainsbury's does- it may be removed when there's no association with the company's originators and the word becomes just a title; similarly the apostrophe is usually omitted in geographical names, eg Smiths canyon.

Possessors ending in a letter of an s sound that isn't sounded can have an apostrophe without an s after it to indicate that the previous letter should be sounded, eg Descartes' ideas.

In eg for convenience' sake or for goodness' sake the s after the apostrophe can be omitted because although these possessors aren't plural they end with the s sound and are followed by a word beginning with s sound; proper nouns however, eg James's sake, still retain it.

Plural nouns without an s ending can have one added to indicate possession eg
Those oxen's saddles.
Where there is more than one possessor the apostrophe goes only after the last one mentioned, eg John and Sue's party.

Apostrophes are needed in one hour's work, two weeks' holiday, and five dollars' worth.

Abbreviating the i in is and leaving only the s at the end of the previous word can look superficially like possession, eg My name's Sean.

Apostrophes are usually omitted when letters are removed from the start of a word, eg phone for telephone or net for internet, other than when the shortening is less standard English, eg 'bout for about, or 'less for unless.

The apostrophe is not used to mark plurality, apart from cases like capital S's or number 1's, being clearer than Ss or 1s, even though this would normally denote possession by the S or 1; similarly dot your i's and cross your t's, grade A's or yes's, no's, do's and ex's.

Ways of life, crossings out, passers-by, Attorneys General or rites of passage are examples of a possessor where the plural s is not placed on the end word, complicating placing of apostrophes.

The apostrophe is distinct from the same 9-shaped punctuation mark for closing a quotation, or marking feet and inches or minutes and seconds of degrees.

The apostrophe has other minor uses.

[Cato]

Speaking of war, I'd battle over whether the apostrophe is needed when citing years. "1880s" is perfectly understandable without it.

I suppose I use it out of habit, and because (for me at least) it seems to imply "1880 and the years through 1889."

Since those years are implied, the apostrophe seems necessary, in the same way that the implied "o" is represented in the word "don't."

[Cato]

The people is ...

The people are ...

?

The people are...

My classic American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language edited by William Morris gives no singular.

And people therefore might seem to have a "double plural" in sentences e.g. "The peoples of sub-Saharan Africa..."  meaning assorted tribes or language groups.

This dictionary has a special warning about using "people" for a "specific and relatively small number" e.g. "Ten persons died in the accident" is considered proper, not "Ten people..."

That distinction is probably a losing, or already lost, battle! 

[Parsifal]

That's what I thought, still, I persistently see the other from time to time.

Thanks.

I don't think I have ever seen "the people is" written.  You see phrases like "meeting people is easy" but the verb is conjugated to match "meeting."  (Meeting salesmen is easy.)