Author Topic: Cato's Grammar Grumble  (Read 550834 times)

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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4740 on: February 07, 2021, 09:04:59 PM »

How close we were to Shakespeare writing

Who is Padur and why do all the swains adore her?

Very good!
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Offline steve ridgway

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4741 on: February 07, 2021, 09:34:31 PM »

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4742 on: February 08, 2021, 05:59:38 AM »
divine
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Offline Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4743 on: April 11, 2021, 04:32:15 AM »
Our local Indian restaurant has a beautifully printed sign in the window - “Allergies and intolerance available on request. Please ask any member of staff”. ;D

Style counterbalances obscurity!   ;)

Concerning the word "definitely"...


I think I’ve seen it spelled “definately” or even “definatly”  1

And then, I’ve many times heard “nuclear” pronounced “nukelar” 2  (even by one of my professors at the University of Chicago!  ::))...




You might be just right, now that I think of it.

But then again, how do you pronounce define? Dee-fine, or Def-in?

But then again again, English pronunciation is the most illogical and counterintuitive of all the languages I can speak or read 3:laugh:



1:  I have noticed the "a" mistake for a good number of years among my students, even though nobody (at least here in Ohio) would ever say "definately" with the "a" from "late," or (for "definatly") the "a" from "gnat."

Perhaps it creeps in from the "-ate" in words such as "literate" or "considerate" or the adjectival pronunciation of "moderate."  I have not often been hearing a short "i" in "definite" from speakers, but too often an incorrect short-e sound, i.e. closer to the pronunciation of "literate."


2 :  I have also heard "nuke-yoo-lar" as a pronunciation.  I think that comes mainly from southern states, but it could be more widespread.


3 :   Define =  "Dee-fine" with a long "e" and a long "i" and the accent on the second syllable.


You can blame William the Conqueror and his French-fried Vikings   ???   for the problems in English spelling: when they invaded England and brought along their early Medieval Norman French, things became muddled quickly!  8)



About a year ago I grumbled about the pronunciation of "Important," and nothing has improved. I have heard ever more people on television pronouncing the "impor-" and then making the sound of a goose being run over by a bus.
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Offline Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4744 on: April 11, 2021, 04:51:43 AM »
Quote from: ultralinear link=topic=10977.msg1360591#msg136[b
[/b]0591 date=1618148601]
I have seen the origin of this usage credited to Eisenhower.  Don't know how true that is ... but it might account for its persistence. :-\

Interesting: with his presidency starting around the time when a majority of Americans had bought television sets (1952-1953), that could have been a factor.

A sign in front of chain restaurants called Taco Bell (which should be called Taco Hell, because of what happens to you after you eat their food, but...):



   "FREE JOBS!"


So, what does that mean?  Does one receive the opportunity to work without pay at Taco Bell?   ???    Does one not need to pay Taco Bell to receive employment?   :o    Is there no application fee?

Or is Steve Jobs NOT DEAD, but imprisoned somewhere in a taco factory?!   ;)
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 05:01:28 AM by Cato »
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Offline Stürmisch Bewegt

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4745 on: April 11, 2021, 05:10:40 AM »
steve ridgway's Indian restaurant sign called to mind a Vietnamese restaurant menu item, one I was esp. fond of, in fact :  Sesame Tofu with Circled Broccoli (steamed broccoli was served evenly distributed around the perimeter of the plate).  But then there's the name of a famous one:  the Pho King Good, Authentic Vietnamese Restaurant. 

Leben heißt nicht zu warten, bis der Sturm vorbeizieht, sondern lernen, im Regen zu tanzen.

Offline steve ridgway

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4746 on: April 11, 2021, 05:21:40 AM »
And why not? ;)


Offline Pohjolas Daughter

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4747 on: April 11, 2021, 05:28:24 AM »

   "FREE JOBS!"


So, what does that mean?  Does one receive the opportunity to work without pay at Taco Bell?   ???    Does one not need to pay Taco Bell to receive employment?   :o    Is there no application fee?

Or is Steve Jobs NOT DEAD, but imprisoned somewhere in a taco factory?!   ;)
I suspect that the sign was created to catch people's attention; as in, put "Free" in front of anything and it will catch their eye.  Everyone is always interested in something that's for free, non?  ;) :)

PD

Offline Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4748 on: April 11, 2021, 05:49:45 AM »
Many thanks for the signs from those curious restaurants!   ;)


I suspect that the sign was created to catch people's attention; as in, put "Free" in front of anything and it will catch their eye.  Everyone is always interested in something that's for free, non?  ;) :)

PD

Yes, that was a joke 50 + years ago on bulletin boards at the university:  "FREE BEER! - - - Now that we have your attention, come to the NIetszsche is Peachy Society's weekly soiree..."   ???

Or, even edgier: "TEN GIRLS WANT SEX ON FRIDAY! ---- Now that we have your attention, come to the Trotsky Rehabilitation Society's weekly tea-time..."   8
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 06:04:18 AM by Cato »
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Offline Stürmisch Bewegt

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4749 on: April 11, 2021, 05:56:02 AM »
A sign in front of chain restaurants called Taco Bell (which should be called Taco Hell, because of what happens to you after you eat their food, but...):

   "FREE JOBS!"

So, what does that mean?  Does one receive the opportunity to work without pay at Taco Bell?   ???    Does one not need to pay Taco Bell to receive employment?   :o    Is there no application fee?

Or is Steve Jobs NOT DEAD, but imprisoned somewhere in a taco factory?!   ;)

"Free" is meant, I'm sure, in the sense of open, available, not currently held... 
Leben heißt nicht zu warten, bis der Sturm vorbeizieht, sondern lernen, im Regen zu tanzen.

Offline Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4750 on: April 11, 2021, 06:04:50 AM »
"Free" is meant, I'm sure, in the sense of open, available, not currently held...

 Also possible!


The signs have brought back memories of a word which I never understood for the longest time: it was explained to me after I graduated.

Often there were signs for assorted non-educational get-togethers which began: LAGNAF!

I thought it was some sort of French word, like lagniappe (which I discovered was more Cajun French than official French), but no.

My mind rotated it to "FANGAL" which recalled "fan dancers"( a "fan gal")  from ribald burlesque shows earlier in the century, where a nearly naked dancer held two large feathery fans covering strategic parts of her body and almost revealing those parts, but not quite.   However, that was not the meaning...although I was getting closer!   ;)



It turned out to be an acronym for something rather rude (it was the 1960's!):  "Let's All Get Naked And Fornicate!"   ???
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Offline steve ridgway

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4751 on: April 11, 2021, 09:25:08 AM »
Many thanks for the signs from those curious restaurants!   ;)

Now you’ve reminded me of the animal charity shop I saw while visiting the town of Bury, Lancashire. :-\


Offline Papy Oli

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4752 on: April 11, 2021, 09:44:58 AM »
 :laugh:

...and they seem quite chirpy about it and all...  ;D
Olivier

Offline Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4753 on: April 11, 2021, 10:02:25 AM »
Now you’ve reminded me of the animal charity shop I saw while visiting the town of Bury, Lancashire. :-\

 0:) 8)

:laugh:

...and they seem quite chirpy about it and all...  ;D

Yes, indeed!

Do the natives by pronounce their town's name "Byoory" ?   And not as in "bury the dead" ?

I was wondering because...

...there was an historian of Ancient History named J. B. Bury and my professors always pronounced his name "Byoory."
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

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Offline steve ridgway

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4754 on: April 11, 2021, 08:04:21 PM »
Do the natives by pronounce their town's name "Byoory" ?   And not as in "bury the dead" ?

It’s more like the u in ”butter”.

Offline Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4755 on: April 12, 2021, 09:54:58 AM »

It’s more like the u in ”butter”.



Aha!  Many thanks!   My inner Professor Higgins is always interested in such things!   8)

In America "Bury" and "Berry" are basically homonyms.  The name "Barry" can also be considered a homonym with them in some areas.  Other areas pronounce the name with the "a" in "bat."


"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4756 on: April 13, 2021, 03:44:08 AM »
Just you wight, 'enry 'iggins, just you wight!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Boston MA
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Offline Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4757 on: April 13, 2021, 05:30:29 AM »
Just you wight, 'enry 'iggins, just you wight!


Heh-heh!

I sometimes refer to "The Rex Harrison School of Fine SInging" and most of the time the reaction is blank stares.   I have reached the age where most people do not understand the joke!   0:)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 05:32:50 AM by Cato »
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4758 on: April 13, 2021, 08:30:43 AM »
A new exhibition shows that not even the people of Bury can agree the real pronunciation of the town
By Saiqa Chaudhari

https://www.burytimes.co.uk/news/15371909.a-new-exhibition-shows-that-not-even-the-people-of-bury-can-agree-the-real-pronunciation-of-the-town/

I had a Saturday job in Bury when I was a kid at school, I lived close to a train which ran from Manchester Victoria to Bury, I would take that train every day to get to school.

And I remember that it rhymed with cherry. But clearly, that's very disputable.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 08:33:35 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4759 on: April 13, 2021, 08:37:15 AM »



https://www.flickr.com/photos/tonyworrall/7069045571


A light sculpture at the Bury Metrolink

 

Bury's 'Light Night', a public artwork by poet Ron Silliman illuminates a line from his poem 'Northern Soul' in glowing red neon.


But you've got to be careful because, amazingly, it turns out that Ron Silliman is a yank! So what does he know about how to pronounce it? Here he is reading Northern Soul.

https://www.poetryinternational.org/pi/poem/22198/auto/0/0/Ron-Silliman/from-NORTHERN-SOUL/en/tile
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 08:39:34 AM by Mandryka »
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