Author Topic: Cato's Grammar Grumble  (Read 550823 times)

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Offline steve ridgway

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4760 on: April 13, 2021, 08:47:12 AM »
But you've got to be careful because, amazingly, it turns out that Ron Silliman is a yank! So what does he know about how to pronounce it?

I cringe most at London on Tangerine Dream’s Tyger album in which American singer Jocelyn B. Smith, singing poetry by William Blake, pronounces Thames as Fames. :'(

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4761 on: April 13, 2021, 11:57:22 AM »
I cringe most at London on Tangerine Dream’s Tyger album in which American singer Jocelyn B. Smith, singing poetry by William Blake, pronounces Thames as Fames. :'(

Yowch!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4762 on: April 13, 2021, 04:10:13 PM »
A new exhibition shows that not even the people of Bury can agree the real pronunciation of the town
By Saiqa Chaudhari

https://www.burytimes.co.uk/news/15371909.a-new-exhibition-shows-that-not-even-the-people-of-bury-can-agree-the-real-pronunciation-of-the-town/

I had a Saturday job in Bury when I was a kid at school, I lived close to a train which ran from Manchester Victoria to Bury, I would take that train every day to get to school.

And I remember that it rhymed with cherry. But clearly, that's very disputable.

Great article!  Many thanks!

I cringe most at London on Tangerine Dream’s Tyger album in which American singer Jocelyn B. Smith, singing poetry by William Blake, pronounces Thames as Fames. :'(


Yowch!



Double YOWCH!

An unpardonable sin against English and the English!   ;)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

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Offline Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4763 on: April 17, 2021, 02:52:07 AM »
Last night Mrs. Cato and I happened to come a across a T.V. show about lottery winners in England who search for and buy a new house for themselves.  Normally such shows are not on the radar, but this one seemed intriguing as soon as we happened to hear the husband of the married couple, who had won the lottery, attempting to speak English in the opening blurb: he is from an area "20 minutes north of London."

Now we had visited London 2 years ago and had never heard anything like this:

"Oi ge' oil gi' i' a bi' uh uh go."    :o ??? :o ???

Fortunately we have "rewind" for broadcast shows, so we replayed this a few times.  It was an excerpt from later in the show, and subtitles at times would have been nice for our American/Ohio ears.   8)

In context I was able to decipher the above:

"I guess I'll give it a bit of a go,"    ;)  Meaning, I assume, that the man would give a certain house-for-sale a chance to impress him, even though he was highly skeptical that it would do so because of its location and price.

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Offline steve ridgway

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4764 on: April 17, 2021, 06:04:42 AM »
That sounds like where I grew up in the Midlands. We tended to miss out “T”s like that, much to the annoyance of our teachers. The one exception was when singing “Away in a Manger” which went something like

Away in a manger
No crib for a bed
The li’el Lor Jesus
Lay down is swee Ed
The stars in the brigh sky
Look down where E lay
The li’el Lor Jesus
Asleep on the ay
The ca’el are lowing
The Baby awakes
But li’el Lor Jesus
No crying E makes
I love You, Lor Jesus
Look down from the sky
An stay by my side
Until morning is nigh...T
>:D

Offline Florestan

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4765 on: April 17, 2021, 06:25:45 AM »
Last night Mrs. Cato and I happened to come a across a T.V. show about lottery winners in England who search for and buy a new house for themselves.  Normally such shows are not on the radar, but this one seemed intriguing as soon as we happened to hear the husband of the married couple, who had won the lottery, attempting to speak English in the opening blurb: he is from an area "20 minutes north of London."

Now we had visited London 2 years ago and had never heard anything like this:

"Oi ge' oil gi' i' a bi' uh uh go."    :o ??? :o ???

Fortunately we have "rewind" for broadcast shows, so we replayed this a few times.  It was an excerpt from later in the show, and subtitles at times would have been nice for our American/Ohio ears.   8)

In context I was able to decipher the above:

"I guess I'll give it a bit of a go,"    ;)  Meaning, I assume, that the man would give a certain house-for-sale a chance to impress him, even though he was highly skeptical that it would do so because of its location and price.

This only reinforce my idea that English is the most illogical and counterintuitive language in the world, both spelling-wise and pronunciation-wise. That it should have become the lingua franca of modernity is one of God's inscrutable mysteries.  ;D
“I love melody, I love to sing. I refuse to compose music only intended to be discovered and understood by future generations.” 

--- Carlos Guastavino (1912-2000), Argentinian composer

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4766 on: April 17, 2021, 07:00:31 AM »
That sounds like where I grew up in the Midlands. We tended to miss out “T”s like that, much to the annoyance of our teachers. The one exception was when singing “Away in a Manger” which went something like

Away in a manger
No crib for a bed
The li’el Lor Jesus
Lay down is swee Ed
The stars in the brigh sky
Look down where E lay
The li’el Lor Jesus
Asleep on the ay
The ca’el are lowing
The Baby awakes
But li’el Lor Jesus
No crying E makes
I love You, Lor Jesus
Look down from the sky
An stay by my side
Until morning is nigh...T
>:D

(* chor'le *)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline steve ridgway

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4767 on: April 17, 2021, 07:48:12 AM »
That it should have become the lingua franca of modernity is one of God's inscrutable mysteries.  ;D

Why when we say English is the French language of the world, do we say it in Latin? :-\

Offline Florestan

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4768 on: April 17, 2021, 07:51:35 AM »
Why when we say English is the French language of the world, do we say it in Latin? :-\

False friend, my friend!  ;)
“I love melody, I love to sing. I refuse to compose music only intended to be discovered and understood by future generations.” 

--- Carlos Guastavino (1912-2000), Argentinian composer

Offline steve ridgway

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4769 on: April 17, 2021, 08:00:18 AM »
False friend, my friend!  ;)

I suppose it’s one of those phrases that doesn’t mean the same in English as in the language it was taken from. ;)

Offline Florestan

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4770 on: April 17, 2021, 08:19:22 AM »
I suppose it’s one of those phrases that doesn’t mean the same in English as in the language it was taken from. ;)

I am not aware of any phrase that means the same in English as in the language it was taken from.  >:D :P  ;)
“I love melody, I love to sing. I refuse to compose music only intended to be discovered and understood by future generations.” 

--- Carlos Guastavino (1912-2000), Argentinian composer

Offline North Star

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4771 on: April 17, 2021, 12:39:04 PM »
This only reinforce my idea that English is the most illogical and counterintuitive language in the world, both spelling-wise and pronunciation-wise. That it should have become the lingua franca of modernity is one of God's inscrutable mysteries.  ;D

History frequently defies logic, so it only makes sense.

I suppose it’s one of those phrases that doesn’t mean the same in English as in the language it was taken from. ;)
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Offline Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4772 on: April 18, 2021, 01:18:57 PM »
That sounds like where I grew up in the Midlands. We tended to miss out “T”s like that, much to the annoyance of our teachers. The one exception was when singing “Away in a Manger” which went something like

Away in a manger
No crib for a bed
The li’el Lor Jesus
Lay down is swee Ed
The stars in the brigh sky
Look down where E lay
The li’el Lor Jesus
Asleep on the ay
The ca’el are lowing
The Baby awakes
But li’el Lor Jesus
No crying E makes
I love You, Lor Jesus
Look down from the sky
An stay by my side
Until morning is nigh...T
>:D


Wow!   8)    But even that has more consonants than the lottery winner used!


This only reinforce my idea that English is the most illogical and counterintuitive language in the world, both spelling-wise and pronunciation-wise. That it should have become the lingua franca of modernity is one of God's inscrutable mysteries;D


Yes, very inscrutable!    0:)


"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4773 on: May 24, 2021, 01:45:27 PM »
Solve this sudoku puzzle for relax!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
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http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4774 on: June 27, 2021, 07:38:05 AM »
Read it on Wikipedia: "John Lennon was an English singer-songwriter and one of the four principal members of the Beatles."
Someone explain to me the adjective "principal," there.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline T. D.

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4775 on: June 27, 2021, 07:53:35 AM »
Read it on Wikipedia: "John Lennon was an English singer-songwriter and one of the four principal members of the Beatles."
Someone explain to me the adjective "principal," there.

To distinguish the Fab Four (band was a quintet for a while in early days) from Stu Sutcliffe, Pete Best et al.?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beatles

Offline T. D.

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4776 on: June 27, 2021, 08:25:34 AM »
...

2 :  I have also heard "nuke-yoo-lar" as a pronunciation.  I think that comes mainly from southern states, but it could be more widespread....

I have seen the origin of this usage credited to Eisenhower.  Don't know how true that is ... but it might account for its persistence. :-\

Jimmy Carter famously pronounced "nuclear" that way. It was often remarked on / imitated.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2021, 08:28:01 AM by T. D. »

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4777 on: June 27, 2021, 09:06:01 AM »
To distinguish the Fab Four (band was a quintet for a while in early days) from Stu Sutcliffe, Pete Best et al.?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beatles

Seems unnecessarily fussy, all the same.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline T. D.

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4778 on: June 27, 2021, 09:35:15 AM »
Seems unnecessarily fussy, all the same.

True, but I have some sympathy for the people writing the Wikipedia entries (not that I'd ever want to contribute).
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the "principal" was added after legions of Internet pedants noisily objected "What about <so and so>...???"

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4779 on: June 27, 2021, 09:36:45 AM »
True, but I have some sympathy for the people writing the Wikipedia entries (not that I'd ever want to contribute).
I wouldn't be at all surprised if the "principal" was added after legions of Internet pedants noisily objected "What about <so and so>...???"

Aye, I see it ....
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot