Cato's Grammar Grumble

Started by Cato, February 08, 2009, 05:00:18 PM

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Cato

Quote from: ritter on December 22, 2024, 11:44:34 AMAlso very strange to me is Missouri. Why on Earth would a double "S' have a soft, "Z"-like pronunciation?

Another curiosity is the small town of Madrid, Iowa. The Spanish capital (the first-ever city named Madrid) is pronounced MaDRID in all languages I know, including English.

Its Iowan namesake OTOH is pronounced MADrid.


Yes, a double "S" should have an "S" sound!

The MADrid, Iowa anomaly is similar to the BRRlin in Ohio: very odd, but especially the latter, since the town was founded by German immigrants!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

DaveF

Quote from: ritter on December 22, 2024, 11:44:34 AMAlso very strange to me is Missouri. Why on Earth would a double "S' have a soft, "Z"-like pronunciation?
That's quite a north-of-England thing, actually - I'm sure there are several double-S placenames where the Z sound is used.  (One that comes to mind is Wessenden, which is pronounced "Wezzenden".)

In fact, I'm sure English place-names can easily beat anything American for eccentricities of pronunciation.  The West Midlands / north Warwickshire are especially good - Coleshill, anybody? (koʊzəl, "Cozle".)  Alcester might be a bit more obvious ("Olster"), but then there's Stivichall ("Stychall" - first syllable as in pigsty).  And there's a curious reluctance among West Midlanders to pronounce the letter L - so Walsall is pronounced the same as the anglicised version of the capital of Poland, and Foleshill becomes "Fozle" (as in "Coleshill").
"All the world is birthday cake" - George Harrison

Karl Henning

Quote from: DaveF on December 22, 2024, 01:51:31 PMThat's quite a north-of-England thing, actually - I'm sure there are several double-S placenames where the Z sound is used.  (One that comes to mind is Wessenden, which is pronounced "Wezzenden".)
Related: anyone else in the US would assume one pronunces the C in Quincy, Mass. like a voiceless S, but no, it's Quinzy.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Cato

Quote from: Karl Henning on December 22, 2024, 03:24:43 PMRelated: anyone else in the US would assume one pronounces the C in Quincy, Mass. like a voiceless S, but no, it's Quinzy.


Yes!  I recall hearing about "Quinzy Mocket" (Quincy Market) when I visited Boston in the early 1970's.


Quote from: DaveF on December 22, 2024, 01:51:31 PMThat's quite a north-of-England thing, actually - I'm sure there are several double-S placenames where the Z sound is used.  (One that comes to mind is Wessenden, which is pronounced "Wezzenden".)

In fact, I'm sure English place-names can easily beat anything American for eccentricities of pronunciation.  The West Midlands / north Warwickshire are especially good - Coleshill, anybody? (koʊzəl, "Cozle".)  Alcester might be a bit more obvious ("Olster"), but then there's Stivichall ("Stychall" - first syllable as in pigsty).  And there's a curious reluctance among West Midlanders to pronounce the letter L - so Walsall is pronounced the same as the anglicised version of the capital of Poland, and Foleshill becomes "Fozle" (as in "Coleshill").


Thanks for the interesting examples!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

JBS

Quote from: DaveF on December 22, 2024, 01:51:31 PMThat's quite a north-of-England thing, actually - I'm sure there are several double-S placenames where the Z sound is used.  (One that comes to mind is Wessenden, which is pronounced "Wezzenden".)

In fact, I'm sure English place-names can easily beat anything American for eccentricities of pronunciation.  The West Midlands / north Warwickshire are especially good - Coleshill, anybody? (koʊzəl, "Cozle".)  Alcester might be a bit more obvious ("Olster"), but then there's Stivichall ("Stychall" - first syllable as in pigsty).  And there's a curious reluctance among West Midlanders to pronounce the letter L - so Walsall is pronounced the same as the anglicised version of the capital of Poland, and Foleshill becomes "Fozle" (as in "Coleshill").

I doubt there's anything in American nomenclature that's the equal of Cholmondeley (Chumley) in the matter of unpronounced letters.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

JBS

Quote from: ritter on December 22, 2024, 11:44:34 AMYes, Arkansas one is a mystery for the non-native English speaker (and, from what I read, also for some natives  ;D ).

Also very strange to me is Missouri. Why on Earth would a double "S' have a soft, "Z"-like pronunciation?

Another curiosity is the small town of Madrid, Iowa. The Spanish capital (the first-ever city named Madrid) is pronounced MaDRID in all languages I know, including English. Its Iowan namesake OTOH is pronounced MADrid.

The town founders in Iowa no doubt envisioned their Madrid becoming a great city, and therefore tried to make sure there would be no confusion with Madrid in Spain.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Karl Henning

Quote from: JBS on December 22, 2024, 07:39:56 PMI doubt there's anything in American nomenclature that's the equal of Cholmondeley (Chumley) in the matter of unpronounced letters.
Not quite. Connecticut is quite modest in comparison, and most instances that come to mind are directly borrowed from Old Blighty.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Iota

Quote from: JBS on December 22, 2024, 07:39:56 PMI doubt there's anything in American nomenclature that's the equal of Cholmondeley (Chumley) in the matter of unpronounced letters.


Kalevala

Quote from: JBS on December 22, 2024, 07:39:56 PMI doubt there's anything in American nomenclature that's the equal of *Cholmondeley (Chumley) in the matter of unpronounced letters.
Quote from: Iota on December 23, 2024, 01:29:26 PM

*Oh, my!

When was that show from?

K

Cato

Quote from: JBS on December 22, 2024, 07:42:39 PMThe town founders in Iowa no doubt envisioned their Madrid becoming a great city, and therefore tried to make sure there would be no confusion with Madrid in Spain.


See my "Cairo" example below!

Quote from: JBS on December 22, 2024, 07:39:56 PMI doubt there's anything in American nomenclature that's the equal of Cholmondeley (Chumley) in the matter of unpronounced letters.


Wow!  Talk about contractions: so many contractions in there one might fear that a baby is on the way!

I forgot to mention another Ohio curiosity: a town north of here, despite the absence of deserts, camels, and minarets, is called "Cairo," which, however, is pronounced....

"KAY-ro."   ;D

To return to my original question: how would someone in England pronounce "Wytheville" ?   A long "i" with a voiced or unvoiced "th" ?

Or (improbably) would "WITHville" be heard?   :laugh:  ;)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Iota

Quote from: Kalevala on December 23, 2024, 01:59:17 PM*Oh, my!

When was that show from?

K

It's a satirical show from the 1990s. Harry Enfield and Chums.

ultralinear

Quote from: JBS on December 22, 2024, 07:39:56 PMI doubt there's anything in American nomenclature that's the equal of Cholmondeley (Chumley) in the matter of unpronounced letters.

Or Featherstonehaugh, pronounced Fanshaw.  As in the Wodehouse character Stanley Featherstonehaugh Ukridge (pronounced YOU-kridge not UCK-ridge. :) )

Kalevala

Quote from: Iota on December 24, 2024, 02:01:16 AMIt's a satirical show from the 1990s. Harry Enfield and Chums.
Thanks.

K

Karl Henning

Since cocktails are themselves a species of irrigation, we might say, the phrase (just aired on the radio) "mouth-watering cocktails" strikes me as watered down.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot