Cato's Grammar Grumble

[JBS]

Not a genuine grumble. This was at another table, so it wasn't my time: file under Mild Amusement. Someone interjecting "long story short" when they've already made rather a long tale of it.

That phrase seems to be mean "I just realized I've been talking too long, so I'll skip all the details I have yet to inflict on you".
So what you overheard is an example of that.

[Karl Henning]

That phrase seems to be mean "I just realized I've been talking too long, so I'll skip all the details I have yet to inflict on you".
So what you overheard is an example of that.

Verily. Read "Pity I can't give you that time back."

[steve ridgway]

So, in America, towns or cities are often named after European cities or countries, and not always with the adjective "New" in front.

However, the pronunciation of those European cities can sometimes go awry! 

In Ohio, e.g. we have towns called Berlin, Versailles, and Russia.

Most Americans pronounce "Berlin" with the accent on the second syllable.

However, the town in Ohio is pronounced BRRlin! 

"Versailles" is completely anglicized into VerSALES.

And possibly most improbable of all, although no American referring to the country "Russia" would use the following pronunciation, local Ohioans referring to the town with that name say ROO-sha, as in kangaroo!

So, we were recently passing through Wytheville, Virginia.

We wondered whether the pronunciation used a voice or a voiceless "th."

Mrs. Cato was using Gladys Google 😇    to guide us to a motel: Gladys pronounced the town as WITHville!

Such a pronunciation could not possibly be correct...or so we thought!

When we asked the desk clerk how her town's name was pronounced, "Wytheville" with a voiced "th" or Wytheville" with the unvoiced "th," she looked a little embarrassed and said:

"Uh, no, it's WITHville."  😇

We were amazed that computerized Gladys Google was correct, because with so many place names the programming is very wrong!

So I have a question for our members on the island of Britannia: if saw you "Wytheville," would you also pronounce it "WITHville" ?

I ask this because Virginia is one of the oldest areas to be colonized, and am wondering if this is a pronunciation from 250 years ago or so.

i.e. The "e" at the end would imply that the "y" should be a long "i" sound.  And what about the "th" ?

On holiday in a village in Wales a couple of years ago, my wife asked the man in the butcher's shop how to pronounce "Dyffryn Ardudwy". "I don't know," he replied, "I live in the next village". 

[Kalevala]

So, in America, towns or cities are often named after European cities or countries, and not always with the adjective "New" in front.

However, the pronunciation of those European cities can sometimes go awry! 

In Ohio, e.g. we have towns called Berlin, Versailles, and Russia.

Most Americans pronounce "Berlin" with the accent on the second syllable.

However, the town in Ohio is pronounced BRRlin! 

"Versailles" is completely anglicized into VerSALES.

And possibly most improbable of all, although no American referring to the country "Russia" would use the following pronunciation, local Ohioans referring to the town with that name say ROO-sha, as in kangaroo!

So, we were recently passing through Wytheville, Virginia.

We wondered whether the pronunciation used a voice or a voiceless "th."

Mrs. Cato was using Gladys Google 😇    to guide us to a motel: Gladys pronounced the town as WITHville!

Such a pronunciation could not possibly be correct...or so we thought!

When we asked the desk clerk how her town's name was pronounced, "Wytheville" with a voiced "th" or Wytheville" with the unvoiced "th," she looked a little embarrassed and said:

"Uh, no, it's WITHville."  😇

We were amazed that computerized Gladys Google was correct, because with so many place names the programming is very wrong!

So I have a question for our members on the island of Britannia: if saw you "Wytheville," would you also pronounce it "WITHville" ?

I ask this because Virginia is one of the oldest areas to be colonized, and am wondering if this is a pronunciation from 250 years ago or so.

i.e. The "e" at the end would imply that the "y" should be a long "i" sound.  And what about the "th" ?

There are many examples of Americans pronouncing their towns/cities/streets differently than other countries:  that's just what happens.

K

[Cato]

On holiday in a village in Wales a couple of years ago, my wife asked the man in the butcher's shop how to pronounce "Dyffryn Ardudwy". "I don't know," he replied, "I live in the next village". 

What a riot! 

There are many examples of Americans pronouncing their towns/cities/streets differently than other countries:  that's just what happens.

K

Oh yes!  I should mention more curiosities from Ohio: a town, whose name is based on the German city of Leipzig, is spelled Leipsic, but is pronounced by the natives as (Accent on the BOLD) "LIP-SICK"      ! 

A small town founded by French veterans of the Napoleonic Wars named it "Moscow," which is now pronounced MAHS-KOH.

"Milan" is pronounced MY-LIN.

And one of the worst: "Vienna" comes out as VY-AY-NUH!

[steve ridgway]

There are plenty of traps here due to the natives being too lazy to pronounce all the syllables. For example, "Tintwistle" is pronounced "Tinsel" .

[DaveF]

On holiday in a village in Wales a couple of years ago, my wife asked the man in the butcher's shop how to pronounce "Dyffryn Ardudwy". "I don't know," he replied, "I live in the next village". 

Yeah, there are no Welsh people left in those Meirionydd coastal villages - they're all English incomers/tourists/holiday visitors.  There was a campaign some years back to have another nearby village, Llwyngwril, renamed, or at least given an alternative English name, "Brimingham-on-Sea", so that the residents could pronounce it.  (No accident that the suggested name is an obvious anagram of a large English midland city.)

[steve ridgway]

Yeah, there are no Welsh people left in those Meirionydd coastal villages - they're all English incomers/tourists/holiday visitors.  There was a campaign some years back to have another nearby village, Llwyngwril, renamed, or at least given an alternative English name, "Brimingham-on-Sea", so that the residents could pronounce it.  (No accident that the suggested name is an obvious anagram of a large English midland city.)

"Vilpooler" sounds Welsh to me .

[Karl Henning]

"Vilpooler" sounds Welsh to me .

(* chortle *)

[ritter]

...There was a campaign some years back to have another nearby village, Llwyngwril, renamed, or at least given an alternative English name, "Brimingham-on-Sea", so that the residents could pronounce it.  (No accident that the suggested name is an obvious anagram of a large English midland city.)

Well, that would only be fair, as there already is a Manchester-by-the-Sea... 

[DaveF]

"Vilpooler" sounds Welsh to me .

Hmph! As a Midlander (although long ago adopted Welsh) I'm deeply offended by the suggestion that Liverpool is in the Midlands - no way would it meet our quality standards.  Mercifully, they put Cheshire in the way to keep us well apart.

[JBS]

This is in no way a grumble, nor, strictly speaking, about grammar--but rather a question about British usage.

I came across a listing for a house in England which spoke of "further bedrooms" in reference to bedrooms that were not what we in the US call master or main bedroom, and "further storeys" in reference to the upper floors. For some reason it did not refer to "further bathrooms" although the house had more than one. The property has a guest house, so "further bedrooms" does not seem to correspond to the American term "guest (bed)room".

So
--is this a new term or merely one I've never come across before?
--does it mean anything beyond "the other bedrooms/floors"?

[DaveF]

I came across a listing for a house in England which spoke of "further bedrooms"

Not a usage I've seen before - to me "further" carries the suggestion of "still more" or "even more" - i.e. you think you've found them all, but keep going and you'll be amazed.  I'm not sure what we would say in such a situation - "extra bedrooms", perhaps?

[ritter]

It would be soooo easy just to give the number of bedrooms, wouldn't it? 

[JBS]

It would be soooo easy just to give the number of bedrooms, wouldn't it? 

It does in fact give the numbers.
Going back, I see I misremembered two things: it has a summer house, not a guest house, and it does speak of "further bathrooms".

Here's the complete description.
Yours for only £1,999,950.
Key features
No onward chain
Prime location in Hampton Court
Totally modernised and improved
Glass principal staircase with LED's27'11 x 27'6 LoungeKitchen/Dining/Family Room with 4.5m tall bifold doors to garden
Main Bedroom suite with luxury en suite bathroom with glass bath
3 Further bedrooms
2 Further bathrooms
Detached summerhouse/annex with kitchen area and shower
Description
This quite remarkable property has historically been the subject of a complete renovation project and is now offered for sale as a totally unique home in a sought after and prestigious location. The house has been remodelled and extended and then fitted with some amazing features. Italian marble floors compliment solid oak, illuminated by carefully positioned Art Deco style wall lights, Bespoke central glass staircase with LED lighting, Air Conditioning in the Lounge and main Bedroom, handmade curved doors in certain rooms, Italian custom built Kitchen, 4.5m bi fold doors out to the garden, Stunning Main en suite with feature glass bath, Custom made wall units in Lounge, Copper clad roof on extension.

The accommodation is well planned and now comprises a magnificent Lounge leading to the Kitchen/Dining/Family Room with Utility Room and Cloakroom. Upstairs there are 3 further floors, with the first floor having a Bedroom (currently fitted out as a superb Dressing Room) with an en suite Shower Room. The Principal Bedroom has a unique en suite with black marble and a feature glass bath. On the top floor there are 2 further bedrooms and a Bathroom.

Outside to the rear is a Courtyard Garden with water feature leading to the Summer House/Gym/ Annex which in turn has a Kitchen area and shower Room. To the front of the property is a private parking area which is gated and has an intercom system

It has lots of glass.

Listing is here
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/143718512#/?channel=RES_BUY

[steve ridgway]

Just means "more" I think.

[hopefullytrusting]

It does in fact give the numbers.
Going back, I see I misremembered two things: it has a summer house, not a guest house, and it does speak of "further bathrooms".

Here's the complete description.
Yours for only £1,999,950.
Key features
No onward chain
Prime location in Hampton Court
Totally modernised and improved
Glass principal staircase with LED's27'11 x 27'6 LoungeKitchen/Dining/Family Room with 4.5m tall bifold doors to garden
Main Bedroom suite with luxury en suite bathroom with glass bath
3 Further bedrooms
2 Further bathrooms
Detached summerhouse/annex with kitchen area and shower
Description
This quite remarkable property has historically been the subject of a complete renovation project and is now offered for sale as a totally unique home in a sought after and prestigious location. The house has been remodelled and extended and then fitted with some amazing features. Italian marble floors compliment solid oak, illuminated by carefully positioned Art Deco style wall lights, Bespoke central glass staircase with LED lighting, Air Conditioning in the Lounge and main Bedroom, handmade curved doors in certain rooms, Italian custom built Kitchen, 4.5m bi fold doors out to the garden, Stunning Main en suite with feature glass bath, Custom made wall units in Lounge, Copper clad roof on extension.

The accommodation is well planned and now comprises a magnificent Lounge leading to the Kitchen/Dining/Family Room with Utility Room and Cloakroom. Upstairs there are 3 further floors, with the first floor having a Bedroom (currently fitted out as a superb Dressing Room) with an en suite Shower Room. The Principal Bedroom has a unique en suite with black marble and a feature glass bath. On the top floor there are 2 further bedrooms and a Bathroom.

Outside to the rear is a Courtyard Garden with water feature leading to the Summer House/Gym/ Annex which in turn has a Kitchen area and shower Room. To the front of the property is a private parking area which is gated and has an intercom system

It has lots of glass.

Listing is here
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/143718512#/?channel=RES_BUY

Mitch might be able to explain the problem with counting rooms: (starts at 3:49 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IueXtzdC6kA) also, @ritter

[Mandryka]

This is in no way a grumble, nor, strictly speaking, about grammar--but rather a question about British usage.

I came across a listing for a house in England which spoke of "further bedrooms" in reference to bedrooms that were not what we in the US call master or main bedroom, and "further storeys" in reference to the upper floors. For some reason it did not refer to "further bathrooms" although the house had more than one. The property has a guest house, so "further bedrooms" does not seem to correspond to the American term "guest (bed)room".

So
--is this a new term or merely one I've never come across before?
--does it mean anything beyond "the other bedrooms/floors"?

It's quite a common agent's way of speaking here, when qualified by a number. "The house consists of a large master bedroom and 3 further bedrooms"

[Cato]

Just means "more" I think.

It's quite a common agent's way of speaking here, when qualified by a number. "The house consists of a large master bedroom and 3 further bedrooms"

Thanks for the discussion above!

In our neo-Byzantine era, it has unfortunately become common to choose polysyllabic words, when the mono-or-duosyllable word would suffice, and in fact be clearer, or to use two or three words to replace one.

We have seen monstrosities e.g. "The Saint John Community Worship Center" instead of "Church." *

"The Avondale Health and Wellness (What is the difference?) Complex" = Hospital!   

Instead of a "park" we now have a "civic recreation space."

Other examples are welcome! 


* Here in Ohio, there is a store-front "church" (i.e. it is in a former 1890's grocery) in Columbus called, as I recall, "The St. Matthew Whole-Bible Fire-Baptized Holiness Church of God of the Americas"  (SIC!)

I always liked that last part to punctuate that they are serious, even if the building is an 1890's grocery store! 😇

[ritter]

Another question (not grammatical, but rather re. pronunciation): when did some American politicians start deliberately mispronouncing Iran and Iraq? Instead of "EE-ran" and "EE-raq", I started hearing "Aye-ran" ad "Aye-raq). Was that a thing of George W. Bush, or did it start earlier?